Over in Proposed Rules-land, the topic of the Riptide comes up over and over, and one of the fundamental disagreements on how to fix it hinges on one key question: what is it meant to be doing on the battlefield. There seem to be two camps: the Artillery Camp and the Linebreaker Camp, as I'll call them. The Artillery Camp envisions the Riptide as a slow, lumbering, ponderous machine that sits in the back lines acting like semi-mobile artillery, as basically the Tau version of a Basilisk, and they wonder why in the nine hells it needs to be so blasted durable and mobile when most other artillery pieces are at best T7/W2/3+ or AV12/10/10 3HP. The Linebreaker Camp envisions it as a mobile fire sink, basically a bigger, tougher version of a Crisis Suit that's meant to soak up an awful lot of incoming fire so the Fire Warriors and Crisis Teams can get where they need to go and kill what they need to kill, and they wonder why in the universe something like that has a 72"-range pie plate puker and trivially easy access to Interceptor.
These two camps seem like divergent design elements to me: you can't make a single model good at both without being OP in at least one of them. So, my question to you, Dakka-ites at large, both Tau players and those who play against Tau, is this: which do you think it should be?
It is specified in the fluff, I think, that the Riptide is a large class of Crisis suit, thus it should function as such IMO.
The biggest issue is its Durability and those units that are capable of dealing with it's durability do not get to fire upon the Riptide due to EWO.
It is odd to me that the Riptide has a 2+ armour, as if it is trying to be a steroided combination of a Crisis suit & a Broadside. Jet-pack suit should have only a 3+ save. This would help fix the Riptide and make it function more like a giant Crisis suit.
Fluff-wise, and what I think it was designed as, is to really be a Gundam Wing type suit. And in those animes, such units are super-powerful, able to kill lots of stuff, while also being nigh invincible.
In a story, that's cool. In a game, it's not. (well, it is, if you pay a blastedly huge amount of points for it)
Personally, I feel like the Riptide should be "hey, this thing is experimental", and that vibe should define it. You should be able to make it three ways:
#1 - The Artillery unit; it keeps strong shooting ability, and can even move around pretty quickly, but isn't able to really take a punch.
#2 - The Linebreaker unit; it doesn't have very strong shooting, but it's tough, meant to break through lines and sow discord among enemies.
#3 - The Super-Unit; It does it all baby! However, it's price is way higher than it is right now.
I absolutely agree that the EWO is too much, for too cheap. The reason I posted this, and posted it here, is because last time I proposed any fixes, the thread got derailed on a bunch of suggestions that were predicated on the idea that it would be fine sitting back chucking S8 AP2 large blasts, even with Interceptor, as long as it dies when you breathe on it and can't rabbit around. Basically, arguing in favor of a version that's even killier than the current one, but much more glass - but I agree that the fluff doesn't portray it like that.
So, I'm trying to figure out not what the fluff says - which is pretty clear - or what the current crunch provides (which is all kinds of confuzzled), but rather, how the player base sees it.
The Tau already have an artillery suit, its called the storm surge. Even in its original fluff the Riptide was instrumental in breaking the fortifications at Agrellan when they discovered it could take manticore missiles and keep going. I think its fundamental identity problem is the fact that the ion accelerator has such long range. I suggest it has a range or 48 inches or less to reflect this and more define the role of the suit itself.
I voted breakthrough unit, but I still feel the easiest fix is to keep the same cost but drop a wound and not allow access to FNP, that would cut its survivability considerably without making it overly squishy. Maybe restrict it frok taking EWO too. Afted that, its good but not outrageous and would require a bit more thought to use properly.
It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
I think if they toned down the weapons a tad and reduced their range but kept the durability it certainly would fit the theme of a Linebreaker suit. You're right, predators cant do much but its just as vulnerable to things like sniper weapons, grav crushes it, and even a torrent of lasguns can give it a bad day (and is insanely fun to watch it happen). Not to mention that fact that its just as likely to wound itself from nova.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
I agree with this. Even in a Riptide Wing, the damage output is good, but far from OP. A StimTide is by far the hardest unit in Codex* 40K to kill. *I am excluding Forge world stuff here.
What makes it worse is that most units that can drop in a try to take it out, won't be able to because they die in their own movement phase thanks to EWO.
Player base & fluffwise, I don't think the Riptide is suppose to be an Artillery type unit. That is what the Stormsurge & Broadsides are for. Riptide is supposed to be a Linebreaker.
Having only 3+ save and more expensive EWO would still allow it to perform that task without being the Bane of all Marine lists
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The issue isn't that he Riptide is too killy, or that it's too durable, it's that it is both for such a ridiculously low cost. Anything that can fill as many rolls as a Riptide can while taking as many hits as it can should have a commiserate points cost.
Awhile ago, I wrote a rule proposal to rework the Nova Reactor mechanic for the Riptide. Rather than it being "Roll a Die for a Bonus", the Nova Reactor would work as follows:
Nova Reactor: At the start of the player's Movement Phase, the Riptide may choose to have the Nova Reactor power a subsystem of choice. Until the start of the player's next turn, the Riptide follows the "Nova-Charge" rules for that subsystem. At the start of the player's next turn, the Riptide will instead follow the "Burnout" rules until the start of the player's subsequent turn. A Riptide may not use the Nova Reactor to power a subsystem that is undergoing Burnout.
Primary Weapon:
-Nova-Charge: The Primary Weapon uses its Nova-Charge profile for shooting.
-Burnout: The Primary Weapon may not shoot.
Shields:
-Nova-Charge: The Riptide has a 2+ Invulnerable Save.
-Burnout: The Riptide does not have an Invulnerable Save.
Thrusters:
-Nova-Charge: The Riptide doubles all movement for this turn.
-Burnout: The Riptide may not move at all this turn. If forced to Fall Back or to move from a Tank Shock, it is automatically destroyed.
Secondary Weapon:
-Nova-Charge: The Secondary Weapon may fire 3 times this turn.
-Burnout: The Secondary Weapon may not fire this turn.
For the "Riptide Wing", the Networked Reactor Array rule would be re-written as:
Networked Reactor Array: At the start of the player's turn, when a Riptide is about to suffer the "Burnout" effects of a particular subsystem, another Riptide from this formation within 6" may elect to suffer the Burnout effects instead, provided it would otherwise not suffer the Burnout Effects for the turn. For example, if Riptide A Nova-Charges the Shield Subsystem on turn 1, while Riptide B Nova-Charges its Thrusters turn 1, and both end within 6" of each other, Riptide A could have Riptide B's Shields to suffer the Burnout Effects for the turn, while Riptide B could have Riptide A's Thrusters suffer Burnout effects for the turn, thus allowing Riptide A to Nova-Charge its Shields for a second turn in a row, and Riptide B to Nova-Charge its Thrusters for a second turn in a row.
Finally, make EWO more expensive for the Riptide (Stimulant Injectors are already pricier) for it would definitely be a good start, and the Ion Accelerator's AP should be AP 3 instead of AP 2, requiring the Nova Charge for AP 2 to kick in.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
I think if they toned down the weapons a tad and reduced their range but kept the durability it certainly would fit the theme of a Linebreaker suit. You're right, predators cant do much but its just as vulnerable to things like sniper weapons, grav crushes it, and even a torrent of lasguns can give it a bad day (and is insanely fun to watch it happen). Not to mention that fact that its just as likely to wound itself from nova.
2+/5+++ is functionally immune to lasguns and snipers.
An FNP'd Riptide is gonna take an average of 108 Lasgun shots to sustain a single wound, 540 to kill it. You can lasgun flurry the thing all day and it probably wont care. While it's *possible* to hurt a Riptide with small arms like Bolters and Lasguns, it is functionally immune to them.
Even Sniper weapons arent particularly functional against a Riptide.
It's definitely a linebreaker unit - fast, durable and threatening. In my games I always use it as my vanguard - always in front, always making holes for my other suits to move up and continue the fight.
I would agree that it needs a cost adjustment, but until the Wraithknight is adjusted accordingly, and other armies stop getting several hundred points of free gear/transports as detachment boni, I'm not going to loose any sleep over the base price of the model.
This is actually a more complex question than it first appears.
The Riptide is, at the end of the day, a giant crisis suit. It does what a crisis gak does but is bigger, tougher, and meaner across the board.
Now... the crux of this conflict has to do with what you consider the Crisis Suit to be. If you think of the crisis suit as what it is in game, then the Riptide is easily a linebreaker, but if you're thinking about what the crisis suit is in the fluff (that is, the mech that can be modified into different roles, including mounting small rail guns to become broadside battlesuits) then the answer is more complicated, and the Riptide is the basis of a unit that could be kitted out in either role.
Of course, now that the stormsurge and ghostkeel exist the Riptide works less as the baseline model and is more easily shoehorned into the linebreaker, crisis suit-esque roll.
The Riptide is, at the end of the day, a giant crisis suit. It does what a crisis gak does but is bigger, tougher, and meaner across the board.
Now... the crux of this conflict has to do with what you consider the Crisis Suit to be. If you think of the crisis suit as what it is in game, then the Riptide is easily a linebreaker, but if you're thinking about what the crisis suit is in the fluff (that is, the mech that can be modified into different roles, including mounting small rail guns to become broadside battlesuits) then the answer is more complicated, and the Riptide is the basis of a unit that could be kitted out in either role.
Of course, now that the stormsurge and ghostkeel exist the Riptide works less as the baseline model and is more easily shoehorned into the linebreaker, crisis suit-esque roll.
That's where my thoughts were going, too. I think the idea was half-baked in the 6e Tau codex; by adding the Ghostkeel and Stormsurge, the Riptide no longer needs to do it all. So I think the roles should more clearly fork:
1) Stormsurge, as a mostly-static artillery suit, a giant Broadside. Probably something that takes a few solid hits to bring down, but doesn't just blithely ignore everything you toss at it. Has a long-range gun and a lot of medium-range ones.
2) Riptide, as a mobile linebreaker suit that's meant to laugh off lighter weapons but is somewhat vulnerable to anti-tank weapons.
3) Ghostkeel, as a stealthy hunter of artillery, tanks and heavy weapons units that's highly resistant to big guns but can be brought down by volleys of anti-infantry fire at close range.
I think if you try to make any of them able to fulfil more than one of those roles effectively, you end up with something that's like what the Riptide is at its worst now: out of range of anything that can hurt it, all but immune to anything that can reach it and able to kill anything that can both reach and hurt it before they can move, and can threaten the entire table.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
Tri-Las preds can come in a formation with monster hunter/tank hunter, so with 3 sets of e single las cannons and 3 sets of TL 1 las cannon that's 4 lascannon hits from the singles, and 2.6 from the TL ones. Wounding on a 2+ rerollable. so lets call it 6 to be nice. If the nova failed (which it has a 1/3rd chance of doing mind you) there is 1 wound, 4 las cannon wounds, thats literally 1 turn dead. if it brings FNP then it can limp to 2 turns.
The argument of in 6th ed, riptide was needed to just be competitive. FSE made crisis suits troops, and then Tau became top tier. Now that we have more tools, but riptide is still in full 6E intro mode (lost the ECPA due to no signature systems so back to pre FSE) it should have been altered in the new codex/mont'ka/Kayon books.
Vote line-breaker, because "it's to tough to kill" tears are delicious. tears for the tear-throne
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
Tri-Las preds can come in a formation with monster hunter/tank hunter, so with 3 sets of e single las cannons and 3 sets of TL 1 las cannon that's 4 lascannon hits from the singles, and 2.6 from the TL ones. Wounding on a 2+ rerollable. so lets call it 6 to be nice. If the nova failed (which it has a 1/3rd chance of doing mind you) there is 1 wound, 4 las cannon wounds, thats literally 1 turn dead. if it brings FNP then it can limp to 2 turns.
The argument of in 6th ed, riptide was needed to just be competitive. FSE made crisis suits troops, and then Tau became top tier. Now that we have more tools, but riptide is still in full 6E intro mode (lost the ECPA due to no signature systems so back to pre FSE) it should have been altered in the new codex/mont'ka/Kayon books.
Vote line-breaker, because "it's to tough to kill" tears are delicious. tears for the tear-throne
Riptide Wing lets its riptides reroll the nova charge test so it gets 3++ 8/9 times now.. And there is no "if" on it having FNP, it's the best upgrade it can take so it's going to have FNP
Also Predetators aren't hard to kill, especially for Tau. You kill 1 Pred from the squadron and it loses monster hunter
since we get to compare in a vacuum to a vacuum, your riptides never roll unlucky, my riptides are never brought in a riptide wing. They choose selective sky-fire over EWO because of a flyer heavy meta, your army is only terminators with no invuls making the s8ap2 large blast especially egregious..
Riptides/tau don't win tournaments because riptides have to chance unsavable wounds and no-result to make them as deadly as you say, or stay within 6" of another making them a cluster, and only very similar parts of the board.
They definitely aren't bad, they are quite good even. But as often as they are brought and as OP as dakka threads claim, no one but tau would win tournaments.
They definitely aren't bad, they are quite good even. But as often as they are brought and as OP as dakka threads claim, no one but tau would win tournaments.
Hrm, just because Tau dont autoroflstomp everything and other stuff is also an issue doesnt mean the Riptide is not. The Riptide mainly is the big obvious outlier that is present is literally every single Tau list almost without exception (I havent seen a single Tau army without a Riptide since they came out), which is an issue.
It doesnt mean that other stuff isnt also broken however.
pumaman1 wrote: since we get to compare in a vacuum to a vacuum, your riptides never roll unlucky, my riptides are never brought in a riptide wing. They choose selective sky-fire over EWO because of a flyer heavy meta, your army is only terminators with no invuls making the s8ap2 large blast especially egregious..
Riptides/tau don't win tournaments because riptides have to chance unsavable wounds and no-result to make them as deadly as you say, or stay within 6" of another making them a cluster, and only very similar parts of the board.
They definitely aren't bad, they are quite good even. But as often as they are brought and as OP as dakka threads claim, no one but tau would win tournaments.
Your mistake. Flyers are mostly garbage and can be ignored.
Again, the firepower can somewhat be handled, but the fact that these thing never die is the frustrating part.
If have to count on bad luck for a unit to die, that unit is too powerful by far.
Tau don't win touranments because invisible deathstars exist. Fighting Tau with a "reasonable" list is virtually impossible.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
The firepower was never the dealbreaker. It was insane durability. Squadrons of tri-las preds can't make this thing sweat. At all.
Tri-Las preds can come in a formation with monster hunter/tank hunter, so with 3 sets of e single las cannons and 3 sets of TL 1 las cannon that's 4 lascannon hits from the singles, and 2.6 from the TL ones. Wounding on a 2+ rerollable. so lets call it 6 to be nice. If the nova failed (which it has a 1/3rd chance of doing mind you) there is 1 wound, 4 las cannon wounds, thats literally 1 turn dead. if it brings FNP then it can limp to 2 turns.
The argument of in 6th ed, riptide was needed to just be competitive. FSE made crisis suits troops, and then Tau became top tier. Now that we have more tools, but riptide is still in full 6E intro mode (lost the ECPA due to no signature systems so back to pre FSE) it should have been altered in the new codex/mont'ka/Kayon books.
Vote line-breaker, because "it's to tough to kill" tears are delicious. tears for the tear-throne
You can't assume the NOVA reactor has failed. The base line comparison is no NOVA at all. Shoot lascannons through a 5++/5+++ is an exercise in futility for something with 5 wounds.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
Ok not be incendiary or trollish (honestly) but I thought I had read a post from you a year ago stating you hated tau? What changed? I remember because I like your name .
Lore wise it was deployed during the Third Sphere of Expansion to outmanoeuvre Imperial Armour while also being practically bulletproof against small arms, something that Crisis Suits can't handle. It plays well into the Mont'ka combat doctrine, being able to swiftly deploy to launch a counterattack to destroy key targets; lore wise it's very much a linebreaker/tank hunter/inevitable bullet sponge.
I think that carries over fairly well into the game, however A. It's more efficient and far easier to keep in your army's backline rather than trying to outflank your enemy with one, and B. The game ignores the fact that it's an experimental design that, at best, has only seen field tests for around a year. It hasn't been massed produced, and often hasn't even been seen by a some Imperial forces fighting on the Eastern Fringe. Make these damn things limited to 1 per army for Christs sake. That, or a limit like "1 per 1000 points".
I voted Linebreaker, because they are functionally battle suit versions of cruiser tanks (break through the line, cause disruption in the back line). My view is a little biased, though, because my weakest special weapon kills them outright on a single failed armor save (GK Psilencer).
In all honesty I'd do 2-3 of the following:
- Reduce the ++ save granted by Nova Charging to make it less of a no-brainer (either making it a 4++, or just removing it as an option).
- Reduce the innate armour save to a 3+.
- Remove the option for Stimms (because honestly it makes no sense that stimm injectors should have much of an effect on a model that's 99% mechanical).
- Reduce the range of the IA to 24" or even 36".
- Increase the cost of EWO.
Then change the base cost as necessary (if it is).
The issue isn't that he Riptide is too killy, or that it's too durable, it's that it is both for such a ridiculously low cost. Anything that can fill as many rolls as a Riptide can while taking as many hits as it can should have a commiserate points cost.
No, the cost is not that relevant. Problem with Riptide is that it breaks the unwritten rules which are supposed to separate Infantry, MC and Vehicles. Riptide combines all of the upsides with none of the downsides. It matters little if it costed 1000 points, it would be just equally silly.
It is if you gave Marneus Calgar a pistol with same stats as Railgun. People would call it broken, no? But what if you made the pistol really expensive? No, that would not help, people would still hate it, and with a reason. Because such a piece of wargear would "break the fiction", the internal logic which dictates the game.
Backfire wrote: Because such a piece of wargear would "break the fiction", the internal logic which dictates the game.
The Riptide however is more believable than Calgar with a Railgun; it's a demonstration of the Tau's incredible technological advantage and their willingness to innovate and create new designs, unlike the older and more advanced Eldar and Necrontyr. That is is an absolute monster with very few weaknesses suits it quite well as the forerunner of Tau technological prowess. In fact, its biggest weakness is the pilot, and how much they dare to charge up its Nova Reactor, knowing full well the dark matter in it has the capability of ripping them and the suit apart.
That being said, I think the Riptide would be much improved if it was a Walker. Sadly, the tunnel vision of the 40k game makes porting it over to that class of unit properly impossible.
Backfire wrote: Because such a piece of wargear would "break the fiction", the internal logic which dictates the game.
The Riptide however is more believable than Calgar with a Railgun; it's a demonstration of the Tau's incredible technological advantage and their willingness to innovate and create new designs, unlike the older and more advanced Eldar and Necrontyr. That is is an absolute monster with very few weaknesses suits it quite well as the forerunner of Tau technological prowess. In fact, its biggest weakness is the pilot, and how much they dare to charge up its Nova Reactor, knowing full well the dark matter in it has the capability of ripping them and the suit apart.
So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?
So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?
It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.
The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.
It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.
Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.
My biggest problem with the riptide is the price compared to the dakka it can put out and how hard it is to kill.
180pts means that it is equivalent to 13 Lootas.
In almost any situation which would you rather have in your army? a Riptide or 13 lootas?
The riptide can't put out as much dakka....depending, but it can boost its weapons with Markerlights and much more importantly, its a T6 5wound 2+ 5++ 5+++ platform compared to 13 lootas who are T4 13wounds(Combined) 6+ Armor save platform.
I think most Tau MC and GMC are in the same boat as Eldar Wraith Knights, Great models but HORRIBLY under priced.
I'll only be okay with Riptide nerfs if all the deathstars in the game are nerfed to pieces and that means super friends (space marines) the top list in the meta by a mile. Also tons of Eldar nerfs.
Tau are a mid tier army (the top of it). They don't need nerfs they need buffs. Or all the top ones need big nerfs. Either way.
Peregrine wrote: Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.
Care to explain to little old me why this is the case? I'm no anime fan, but I like the absolute nonsense that the Earth Caste have come up with as a point in case of the Tau being willing to innovate.
I voted Linebreaker. The Tau already have Artillery and Skirmisher super suits, they have no need of a mulit purpose do what thou will suit.
It also needs to become a vehicle, say 12/12/10 with 4HP and a 5++ save.
Peregrine wrote: Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.
Care to explain to little old me why this is the case? I'm no anime fan, but I like the absolute nonsense that the Earth Caste have come up with as a point in case of the Tau being willing to innovate.
The old Tau fluff basically had it that the Crisis and Broadside suits where the largest as the Tau realised that larger suits would be difficult to build and maintan and would ultimately be a waste of recources as they would go against the tau ethos of mobile warfare.
The old Tau fluff basically had it that the Crisis and Broadside suits where the largest as the Tau realised that larger suits would be difficult to build and maintain and would ultimately be a waste of resources as they would go against the tau ethos of mobile warfare.
I get that entirely - the Riptide on paper shouldn't fit into the idea of Mont'ka or Kauyon; in fact, early tests of the suit using a regular fusion reactor used to power other Tau tech proved the suit to be clunky and unresponsive, useless to the Tau in other words.
However, the latest XV104 prototype is just as mobile as a Crisis Suit thanks to the Nova Reactor that was created for it, while still being able to hold onto its heavy weaponry and armour. Crisis Suits are good linebreakers, but are easily destroyed by small arms fire. The Riptide plugs that flaw in the Mont'ka strategy.
It was an idea that shouldn't have worked, but ended up working incredibly, again testifying to the Tau's willingness to innovate regarding warfare.
The problem with the Riptide, and Tau as a whole is not that they are overpowered but that they are simply NOT fun to play a game against. The riptide is a key component of that.
Most armies can be quite entertaining in 2 of the 4 phases of the game. My KDK for example have an exciting movement phase and assault phase. My Admech have good shooting and movement as well. SM have important movement (dropping units, positioning tanks etc) and shooting and even into the psychic phase. I find that MOST (not all armies cough eldar cough) follow this.
Tau on the other hand not only DOMINATE their turn but also take away phases of your own turn as well. For exmaple in a Tau players turn they have important movement with suits jumping and transports going around. They have a HUGE shooting phase, and finally the assault phase. The assault phase is huge to the Tau for suits. They dominate 3/4 of their turn.
Ok you have suffered through the HUGE turn that is the tau player and its finally your turn. You start movement and decide to deepstrike some guys. BAM the Tau get ANOTHER shooting phase and you lose one of yours. Well now that your army has been shot to pieces in YOUR OWN TURN its time to do the next part of your army. You get through shooting or psychic and thats fine and finally its time to ram some of your specialty units down their throat. BAM! ANOTHER TAU SHOOTING PHASE.
All my games against TAU are exhausting. They dominate 3 phases of the game in their turn, dominate 2 phases in my turn and are SUPER durable so it happens through most of the entire game.
Usually I fare well vs tau but at the end I am just glad the game is over. It always seems like the Tau player got to roll all the dice and spent 75% of the games time actually playing while I just got to pick up models.
I dont think the riptide is that nasty in a vaccum. I can usually gun it down, it just happens to be the poster child for this frustration that players feel in Tau games.
So, no the Tau and riptide are not OP, but they are simply not fun to play and in this game no one likes that.
Turn it into what it should be, a walker vehicle with 12/12/12 armor (thus truly inmune to small arms fire, but heavy weaponry will kill it) with extra mobility in order to represent how agile it is.
Collect the flood of Tau tears, bottle it, and sell it as salty bathwater. Win win win.
PS: on the other hand, Peregrine has a point. Riptides should have never existed in the first place. They're the result of GW missing the point about what Tau were supposed to represent in the first place.
Korinov wrote: Turn it into what it should be, a walker vehicle with 12/12/12 armor (thus truly inmune to small arms fire, but heavy weaponry will kill it) with extra mobility in order to represent how agile it is.
Agreed, but how exactly to add its Jet Pack and Shield into that unit type is another question.
PS: on the other hand, Peregrine has a point. Riptides should have never existed in the first place. They're the result of GW missing the point about what Tau were supposed to represent in the first place.
Again I'd disagree - it's a testimony to the Tau's willingness to innovate and adapt in a short space of time, something even the more technologically advanced Eldar and Necrons can't do. It is definitely one of their defining characteristics that makes them unique in the 40k universe, past the "hurr they're space communists"
Except it isn't meant to be just immune to small arms fire. It was meant to be highly resistant to as much fire as possible to break through defense lines. Which it is highly successful at.
It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success.
Tau adapt. They do so more than even the Tyranids to all things. Look how fast they started making Titans to compete with the other races. Now FW is planning a whole line of Tau titans since they sell so good. The Ta'unar drew oceans of tears despite not being all that good since overpowered Grav counters it. The weapon ruining the game more than anything.
Gamgee wrote: It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success .
Its role is the same as a Crisis Suit, but with the addition of heavier weaponry and thicker armour; until the Riptide Crisis Suits were the Tau's go to for linebreaking and support as part of Mont'ka, but suffered during the Third Sphere of Expansion when they could take down their target (say a Leman Russ Tank squadron) but then get gunned down by a volley of Lasgun fire from the Guardsmen behind. The Riptide can take out the tanks, and probably the infantry straight after too, with only the former being any sort of threat, if they saw the Riptide coming that is...
Gamgee wrote: Yeah and until then the Crisis suit was enough to do the same things as the Riptide, but the IoM changed all of that.
The Imperium didn't change, it just applied more force, combined with knowing more about the Tau and their strategy than during the Second Sphere of Expansion. The Crisis Suit still fulfils its role better than the Riptide in some areas, its size and crew requirements being the primary one; Riptides need an experienced Shas'rve to pilot them (a title that can only be acquired by piloting Crisis armour), and are in a very small quantity, and require a longer and more resource consuming manufacturing process than Crisis Battlesuits. In addition, they're much larger than a Crisis Suit, which can be issue in some environments, meaning that, even if the Empire could build more Riptides, they'd never phase out the Crisis Suits
I mean before contact with the IoM the crisis suit and broadside were overkill for most races we conquered. More than suitable since all the Xenos encountered couldn't even match what we did have.
Are they only in small quantities? The new Tau books make it seem like they have sufficient numbers to throw around dozens for almost every fight and crisis suits are spammed even more than the Riptides. With them being able to be taken in squads I would like to think that represents an increase in availability from a fluff perspective. Compared to Crisis suits they are "rare" but I would say overall there is more of them now than ever. Same with crisis suits.
You are correct about the crisis suit being great in small environs. I didn't ever say they would phase it out. I would actually like to see a next generation crisis suit or something meant to take its place in the future if they can get resources to make enough of them.
Gamgee wrote: I mean before contact with the IoM the crisis suit and broadside were overkill for most races we conquered. More than suitable since all the Xenos encountered couldn't even match what we did have.
Ah, my mistake, I misinterpreted your statement.
Are they only in small quantities?
Absolutely; the element needed to create the nanocrystalline armour is very hard to find, and even harder to extract in the vast quantity needed to create a single suit. It's also still in its experimental phase, with work needed on its Nova Reactor to make it more stable and safe to pilot. And before the suit can even go to battle, it needs a Shas'rve to pilot it, which is more difficult than acquiring a Shas'ui by a long margin.
Their rarity is poorly expressed in the game - that needs to be changed most, imo. Fluff wise, they are all fighting in the same area of space, so I guess a Coalition or even a Battle could deploy about a dozen at once depending on circumstances.
You are correct about the crisis suit being great in small environs. I didn't ever say they would phase it out. I would actually like to see a next generation crisis suit or something meant to take its place in the future if they can get resources to make enough of them.
I just added the point about the Crisis Suit to demonstrate to others the need for Crisis Suits before the question of "well why don't they just replace XV8s with XV104's" pops up. There are technically next generations in the form of the XV9 and the XV89, 84 and 81, though the latter 3 are more modifications to the chassis of the XV8 rather than full on evolutions.
Peregrine wrote: Voted other: nonexistent. The Riptide should be deleted (along with the Stormsurge) and replaced by tanks and aircraft. Tau are supposed to have Starship Troopers style power armor, not idiotic giant anime robots.
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Tau have always had the anime aesthetic going on.
General Annoyance wrote:Agreed, but how exactly to add its Jet Pack and Shield into that unit type is another question.
I don't think it would be much of a hassle honestly.
Again I'd disagree - it's a testimony to the Tau's willingness to innovate and adapt in a short space of time, something even the more technologically advanced Eldar and Necrons can't do. It is definitely one of their defining characteristics that makes them unique in the 40k universe, past the "hurr they're space communists"
No, it's merely a testimony to GW's willingness to sell shinier, bigger and more expensive kits.
When Tau were introduced, I understood them mostly as a practical, efficient and rational army, meant to represent some sort of current-day high-tech army in opposition to WW2 soviet army (Imperial Guard) and shock-and-awe Spess Mehreens. That means no stupid and counter-intuitive designs (Stormsurge lol) and overall an army based more on principles of efficiency and less on rule of cool. The "animeish" look was supposed to provide that rule of cool part.
Sadly over the years, as it always happens with GW, someone missed the point, and now we have impossibly tough huge-ass robots strolling around and shooting entire squads to dust in a single phase. Hooray.
Gamgee wrote:Except it isn't meant to be just immune to small arms fire. It was meant to be highly resistant to as much fire as possible to break through defense lines. Which it is highly successful at.
It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success.
Tau adapt. They do so more than even the Tyranids to all things. Look how fast they started making Titans to compete with the other races. Now FW is planning a whole line of Tau titans since they sell so good. The Ta'unar drew oceans of tears despite not being all that good since overpowered Grav counters it. The weapon ruining the game more than anything.
Look, I understand Riptide is a pretty cool guy, eh kills muhreens and doesn't afraid of anything. But if you don't mind, let's give it some weaknesses ok? Because when you start complaining about other armies' cheese and how much Riptide is needed to balance that for tau, my Chaos Space Marines don't know if they're sadder or angrier.
mew28 wrote: How about make a failed nova charge do 5 wounds. Makes using it a real risk.
Then there would be absolutely no point in even using it. There's a reason CSM players don't like the Champion of Chaos rule and the subsequent Boon table.
I think 3+ armor would basically fix every issue. Now small arms are almost twice as good. Krak missiles work again. Power swords work again. Maybe cap the nova shield at 4++ to put it in line with the DK. Done. Keep the big scary guns, because Tau are about big scary guns. They're just not about immortal units.
General Annoyance wrote:Agreed, but how exactly to add its Jet Pack and Shield into that unit type is another question.
I don't think it would be much of a hassle honestly.
Again I'd disagree - it's a testimony to the Tau's willingness to innovate and adapt in a short space of time, something even the more technologically advanced Eldar and Necrons can't do. It is definitely one of their defining characteristics that makes them unique in the 40k universe, past the "hurr they're space communists"
No, it's merely a testimony to GW's willingness to sell shinier, bigger and more expensive kits.
When Tau were introduced, I understood them mostly as a practical, efficient and rational army, meant to represent some sort of current-day high-tech army in opposition to WW2 soviet army (Imperial Guard) and shock-and-awe Spess Mehreens. That means no stupid and counter-intuitive designs (Stormsurge lol) and overall an army based more on principles of efficiency and less on rule of cool. The "animeish" look was supposed to provide that rule of cool part.
Sadly over the years, as it always happens with GW, someone missed the point, and now we have impossibly tough huge-ass robots strolling around and shooting entire squads to dust in a single phase. Hooray.
Gamgee wrote:Except it isn't meant to be just immune to small arms fire. It was meant to be highly resistant to as much fire as possible to break through defense lines. Which it is highly successful at.
It's role isn't to be immune to small arms fire, but bigger weaponry typically used in fixed defensive roles along Imperum hive city walls. TO which it is a great success.
Tau adapt. They do so more than even the Tyranids to all things. Look how fast they started making Titans to compete with the other races. Now FW is planning a whole line of Tau titans since they sell so good. The Ta'unar drew oceans of tears despite not being all that good since overpowered Grav counters it. The weapon ruining the game more than anything.
Look, I understand Riptide is a pretty cool guy, eh kills muhreens and doesn't afraid of anything. But if you don't mind, let's give it some weaknesses ok? Because when you start complaining about other armies' cheese and how much Riptide is needed to balance that for tau, my Chaos Space Marines don't know if they're sadder or angrier.
Here's my official Gamgee complaints and suggestions box. Feel free to slip it in. http://pbfcomics.com/223/ Also doubles as a Tau complaint box.
So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?
It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.
The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.
It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.
If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.
So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?
It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.
The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.
It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.
If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.
So, why it is the Riptide only manifestation of those awesome Tau technologies? Why don't they apply those technologies to a say, tank? Or a flyer?
It's the pinnacle of Tau technology - their masterpiece if you will. It is an experimental design that uses materials and science not previously used in Tau equipment. The Earth Caste simply haven't had the time to apply the success of the Riptide to previous technology within the roughly Terran year it's seen combat; hell, they can't even make more Riptides at the moment, even if they wanted to - the material that makes up the nanocrystalline alloy armour plates is extremely difficult to obtain in the vast volumes needed to create a single suit.
The Riptide hasn't even left the final prototype phase either - there's still the question on how to make the Nova Reactor more stable without compromising the power that the suit needs from it, as a regular reactor can't sustain an XV104's systems. Only once this phase is complete can it be mass produced and allow other technologies to be built from its designs.
It's a similar story to the Stealth tech that pioneered the XV22 suit, and now the XV95. This is just another level of their competence - the highest level they've ever achieved.
If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.
fluff =/= rules
That is exactly my point. In its current incarnation, the Riptide is both a jack-of-all-trades and a master of those trades as well, at an incredibly affordable points cost. There's a narrow selection of weapons available to a narrow selection of armies that can perform well against it, but requires the Tau player to make some pretty grievous mistakes in order to deploy them... and even then it's not a sure bet.
Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.
carldooley wrote: Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.
Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.
Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.
I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.
Korinov wrote: I don't think it would be much of a hassle honestly.
What do you propose then? A special rule, perhaps?
No, it's merely a testimony to GW's willingness to sell shinier, bigger and more expensive kits.
When Tau were introduced, I understood them mostly as a practical, efficient and rational army, meant to represent some sort of current-day high-tech army in opposition to WW2 soviet army (Imperial Guard) and shock-and-awe Spess Mehreens. That means no stupid and counter-intuitive designs (Stormsurge lol) and overall an army based more on principles of efficiency and less on rule of cool. The "animeish" look was supposed to provide that rule of cool part.
Sadly over the years, as it always happens with GW, someone missed the point, and now we have impossibly tough huge-ass robots strolling around and shooting entire squads to dust in a single phase. Hooray.
You understand them right, but aren't seeing how their new tech fits into this philosophy. The Stormsurge is not counter intuitive at all - the Tau needed a Titan Killer in the Third Sphere, which could defend itself and go anywhere while also supporting an extremely bulky weapon. Thus the KV128 was born. The bipedal design means it can support the weight of the Pulse Driver Cannon, while also being able to traverse a wide variety of environments without bogging down like a tank would. And they can't simply strap the Cannon onto a Grav Tank frame - chances are it wouldn't be able to fly due to weight and lack of stability.
Tau technology is actually very efficient and practical when you examine it. While the Tau are placing an advanced Titan Hunter gun onto an all terrain vehicle, the Imperium just gives an ancient machine they don't understand with a Cathedral strapped on top of it a few kicks and sends it into battle. The Tau Empire doesn't even field any Titan sized weapon systems, outside of perhaps the KX139.
I'm not an anime fan either, so I'm not blinded by any rule of cool these new designs bring. I still giggle when I see a Stormsurge.
Psienesis wrote: If that were at all relevant, it would be considered a "Unique" unit-type, thus limiting it to 1 per army. It isn't, so it doesn't.
In other words, it doesn't translate into the game, therefore all lore for the unit is defunct. That's worse than the people who take the stance of "there is really no canon in 40k". Also:
General Annoyance wrote: The game ignores the fact that it's an experimental design that, at best, has only seen field tests for around a year. It hasn't been massed produced, and often hasn't even been seen by a some Imperial forces fighting on the Eastern Fringe. Make these damn things limited to 1 per army for Christs sake. That, or a limit like "1 per 1000 points".
General Annoyance wrote: Their rarity is poorly expressed in the game - that needs to be changed most, imo.
I'm with everyone here saying that it needs a force limit of some kind, and probably a points increase. You can't hold the lore design of the thing against it in the game; its weakness is the Nova Reactor and the low number of units that actually exist, and I think these should be addressed accordingly in the game.
carldooley wrote: Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.
But the Tigershark is a flyer - how can it be considered to be a fire platform at all?
And no, deletion is a terrible idea, for the reasons I've listed above about why it's practical, and also the fact that the thing can be fixed with some more limitations/points increase
I use Riptides as bullet sponges and basically a distraction Canifex. Their weapons are potentially deadly so they are a threat but their biggest benefit is that they are durable and not abysmal in CC. I use them to draw fire from my other units such as Crisis Suits, Broadsides, or even Fire Warriors which tend to actually do more total damage but can't survive return fire nearly as well. They are also good for going after objectives before the board is cleared but they still aren't that great against dedicated melee units but they can be great at kiting with their nova charged 4d6 thrust move.
carldooley wrote: Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.
Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.
Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.
I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.
It would be a good thing for the balance of the game. Just give them the squat treatment.
The current edition has squatted entire builds, characters and units already, so there's more than enough precedent, even without going all the way back to the army that coined the term.
Psienesis wrote: The current edition has squatted entire builds, characters and units already, so there's more than enough precedent, even without going all the way back to the army that coined the term.
Squatting means writing fluff saying that the unit was killed/discontinued/destroyed/vanished and thus no longer exists. It doesn't mean not creating a codex entry for them; Guardsman Marbo is not dead just because he doesn't feature in the AM Codex.
Psienesis wrote: The current edition has squatted entire builds, characters and units already, so there's more than enough precedent, even without going all the way back to the army that coined the term.
Squatting means writing fluff saying that the unit was killed/discontinued/destroyed/vanished and thus no longer exists. It doesn't mean not creating a codex entry for them; Guardsman Marbo is not dead just because he doesn't feature in the AM Codex.
I know what "squatting" means. The Squats themselves still exist in the setting, they just don't exist in the current tabletop game. Neither does Sly Marbo. If he's not in the Codex, he's not playable. Thus, he's been Squatted.
The Squats still exist in the setting, but as a dead entity that can by no means be represented in current 999.M41 40k. Marbo however, along with all the other units that didn't recieve Codex entries, can and do exist in that time; they just can't be fielded.
By your logic, anything that doesn't have a Codex representation is dead in the 40k universe. Bye bye Adeptus Arbites + everything Forge World has discontinued.
From Lexicanum:
At first the disappearance of the Squat army from the game rules was explained by a background story describing that the race had been devoured by the Tyranids (in effect this still kept them as part of the background). The story went that the Squat race had been virtually destroyed, and the few remaining Homeworlds were annexed by the Imperium over the hundreds of years after the attacks. Only a few scattered and embittered remnants of Squats survive throughout the Imperium. Currently however Games Workshop have taken the stance that the Squats never existed - older republished novels have been edited to remove all references of Squats. In other cases books have not been republished due to the stories featuring Squat characters or other obsolete races. However, the Warhammer 40,000 6th Edition Rulebook explicitly names them as an abhuman race officially recognized by the Imperium
I have yet to see "And Marbo was then shot in the face by a Black Legionnaire with a Meltagun". Until then, he exists in the lore and is 100% relevant to anything that could tie into his background, even if he doesn't exist as a Codex entry.
The Squats were Squatted; Marbo was discontinued. Big difference in terminology: Marbo could re-enter the game in the future, Squats cannot.
To add to others points, the "Huge Suit" kick the Tau seem to be on is really antithetical to what they originally were. They were a less numerous but qualitatively superior version of the Imperial Guard with the "small" suits to give them some flair. Mostly they were built around mechanized infantry and tanks working in concert with the specialist small suits to deliver powerful blows at a specific point, a mobile gunline with a powerful but vulnerable hammer element.
At this point they've become a "Gundam and Special Rules" army, which is rather disappointing.
carldooley wrote: Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.
Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.
Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.
I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.
It would be a good thing for the balance of the game. Just give them the squat treatment.
Are we deleting Eldar, too? They are pretty bad for the balance of the game.
@ Psienesis - This edition has left out characters that GW doesn't produce models for, not deleting a unit entry for a model currently in the range. And army builds may have been rendered obsolete, or non-competetive, but only because the rules for certain units/models were changed - not because they just erased a unit from the game.
Korinov wrote: Turn it into what it should be, a walker vehicle with 12/12/12 armor (thus truly inmune to small arms fire, but heavy weaponry will kill it) with extra mobility in order to represent how agile it is.
Collect the flood of Tau tears, bottle it, and sell it as salty bathwater. Win win win.
That's the spirit tears for the tear throne!
Don't hate becoming a reasonable walker, or other something to balance. But if it becomes a walker the. The Nova reactor needs to be "perfected"
Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.
carldooley wrote: Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.
Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.
Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.
I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.
It would be a good thing for the balance of the game. Just give them the squat treatment.
Are we deleting Eldar, too? They are pretty bad for the balance of the game.
@ Psienesis - This edition has left out characters that GW doesn't produce models for, not deleting a unit entry for a model currently in the range. And army builds may have been rendered obsolete, or non-competetive, but only because the rules for certain units/models were changed - not because they just erased a unit from the game.
Depending on FW allowance in one's playgroup, the IG artillery model range would beg to differ.
carldooley wrote: Sadly, i agree with those who said that the riptide should be deleted. Sadly because I play Tau and use 1 of them and (a) Stormsurge. The Tigershark should have become a GW model rather than FW, and already was acceptable as a Tau fire platform.
Army options, or more specifically - models - should never be deleted. Turning a persons cash and time expenditure into a useless piece of painted plastic is horribly detrimental to the customer base. Remember all the rage when AoS dropped and invalidated entire WHFB armies? Thats just a bad idea.
Are we deleting WK's, Knights, and Grav Centurions too? Those are far more detrimental to the game as a whole.
I'll be the first to jump on my soap box and say that the Riptide Wing and the ability to have up to three Riptides in a squad is a bad move, but just erasing it from the game, I am adamantly against.
Well, the Knight and the Riptide at least have their aesthetic. I don't think people would miss centurions
Said this, I agree with Martel: perhaps just change the armour save to 3+ would help.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vankraken wrote: I use Riptides as bullet sponges and basically a distraction Canifex. Their weapons are potentially deadly so they are a threat but their biggest benefit is that they are durable and not abysmal in CC. I use them to draw fire from my other units such as Crisis Suits, Broadsides, or even Fire Warriors which tend to actually do more total damage but can't survive return fire nearly as well. They are also good for going after objectives before the board is cleared but they still aren't that great against dedicated melee units but they can be great at kiting with their nova charged 4d6 thrust move.
Is just too much stuff for that durability for that point cost.
General Annoyance wrote:What do you propose then? A special rule, perhaps?
Jet Pack Walker Vehicle, and leave the shield as it is? (5++ save iirc)
You understand them right, but aren't seeing how their new tech fits into this philosophy. The Stormsurge is not counter intuitive at all - the Tau needed a Titan Killer in the Third Sphere, which could defend itself and go anywhere while also supporting an extremely bulky weapon. Thus the KV128 was born. The bipedal design means it can support the weight of the Pulse Driver Cannon, while also being able to traverse a wide variety of environments without bogging down like a tank would. And they can't simply strap the Cannon onto a Grav Tank frame - chances are it wouldn't be able to fly due to weight and lack of stability.
Tau technology is actually very efficient and practical when you examine it. While the Tau are placing an advanced Titan Hunter gun onto an all terrain vehicle, the Imperium just gives an ancient machine they don't understand with a Cathedral strapped on top of it a few kicks and sends it into battle. The Tau Empire doesn't even field any Titan sized weapon systems, outside of perhaps the KX139.
I'm not an anime fan either, so I'm not blinded by any rule of cool these new designs bring. I still giggle when I see a Stormsurge.
The bipedal design to me means mostly two things: 1) it will need an incredible amount of energy to move around, and even if 40k is for all purposes a space fantasy setting, I understood Tau as precisely the faction that would stick more to a "sci-fy" vibe (meaning "no huge ass mecha", and 2) it will go flying backwards the very first moment it fires its ridiculously oversized gun.
Just for the record, I don't like Wraithknights either. And regarding the Imperium's titans, I don't like them in 40k. Similarly, while I consider the Stormsurge ridiculous, I wouldn't have batted an eye if it had been introduced in Epic.
Vaktathi wrote:To add to others points, the "Huge Suit" kick the Tau seem to be on is really antithetical to what they originally were. They were a less numerous but qualitatively superior version of the Imperial Guard with the "small" suits to give them some flair. Mostly they were built around mechanized infantry and tanks working in concert with the specialist small suits to deliver powerful blows at a specific point, a mobile gunline with a powerful but vulnerable hammer element.
At this point they've become a "Gundam and Special Rules" army, which is rather disappointing.
Agreed. For me it's quite painful because I was precisely one of those who thought Tau were a nice addition to the game back in 3rd edition. I was quite young back then so it's possible their "animeish" design had a positive influence on how I saw them, but anyway I liked what they brought to the setting. Now it's sad to think how they've degenerated into a Gundam Snowflake army.
pumaman1 wrote:That's the spirit tears for the tear throne!
Don't hate becoming a reasonable walker, or other something to balance. But if it becomes a walker the. The Nova reactor needs to be "perfected"
Just give it five hull points (or more, the hull points mechanic needs to be revamped in order to make most vehicles viable again), make the Nova only blow up on a 1 result but nerf the upgrades it provides. That way you could justify the changes fluff-wise by saying they've improved the design and made it less unreliable, but at the expense of toning down its capabilities.
The Tau have a titan class platform though. The Ta'unar. Basically a giant ranged jaeger. Equivalent to a Warhound Scout Titan. Famed for its insane durability against anything that is not grav. I'm building and painting mine now and calling it the Danger Zero.
Edit
40k runs under the rule of cool physics. So where giant stomchy mecha are the most powerful thing in the setting the Tau have adapted their own. I do want GW to add some cool vehicles, a floating helicopter style stealth gunship (like the Valkyrie or Corvus Blackstar), and more auxiliaries though. If they keep offering us the whole complete Tau package I'll be happy with giant mecha spam.
Korinov wrote:
Jet Pack Walker Vehicle, and leave the shield as it is? (5++ save iirc)
Sounds good to me
The bipedal design to me means mostly two things: 1) it will need an incredible amount of energy to move around, and even if 40k is for all purposes a space fantasy setting, I understood Tau as precisely the faction that would stick more to a "sci-fy" vibe (meaning "no huge ass mecha", and 2) it will go flying backwards the very first moment it fires its ridiculously oversized gun.
Just for the record, I don't like Wraithknights either. And regarding the Imperium's titans, I don't like them in 40k. Similarly, while I consider the Stormsurge ridiculous, I wouldn't have batted an eye if it had been introduced in Epic.
The energy needed shouldn't be a problem - it still has regular composite armour that goes into practically every piece of Tau armour you see, which is quite lightweight. It also has two slow charge reactors to meet the power demand for its weapon systems. In regards to it flying backwards, it has vectored thrusters and ground anchors to counter the gun's recoil, as well as an enormous gyroscope just like you see in most Tau weaponry built into the gun.
I think the suits are still part of the aesthetic of Tau, and correlate with their nature. I don't see how they break the sci fi vibe just because they were inspired from over the top anime or manga. 40k's always been over the top if you believe me, yet still believable.
Gamgee wrote:The Tau have a titan class platform though. The Ta'unar. Basically a giant ranged jaeger. Equivalent to a Warhound Scout Titan. Famed for its insane durability against anything that is not grav. I'm building and painting mine now and calling it the Danger Zero.
Edit
40k runs under the rule of cool physics. So where giant stomchy mecha are the most powerful thing in the setting the Tau have adapted their own. I do want GW to add some cool vehicles, a floating helicopter style stealth gunship (like the Valkyrie or Corvus Blackstar), and more auxiliaries though. If they keep offering us the whole complete Tau package I'll be happy with giant mecha spam.
I'm unsure about the size of the Supremacy Suit really; if it's as big as a Knight, then I guess it can be classed as a Titan.
I find 40k to be believable as I reckon a lot of boundaries will have been broken 38,000 years in the future regarding science. Modern day society already has a few inventions that defy the laws of physics, such as the aeroplane - why couldn't we have giant Mechs with big Railguns 38,000 years from now? Or even in a quarter of that time?
Baldeagle91 wrote: In all honesty it wouldn't be the first time a unit has been squatted.
I would suspect however next edition tau, eldar and necron will be hit with the nerf hammer.... hard...
Everybody suspected this when the 7th ed codexes came out. Didn't happen then.
My mind was blown with how insane GW got with buffing 7th edition Eldar when they where already one of the best armies in 6th edition. Especially considering we had just gotten through a string of toned down or nerfed releases like Orks, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, etc. (I was hoping that Necron Decurion was a bit of an oversight or last minute addition that pushed a relatively balanced codex over the top).
What it needs is either an overall nerf, (or even better, removal) to one aspect OR, as another user suggested, make it flexible but give each aspect limitations - EG:
Fire support: Heavy long ranged weapons (think S D super railgun, etc) and maybe one or two close in defence weapons (Burst Cannon) but has a 3+ armour save, loses its jump packs, will be murdered in assault and cannot move and fire its main gun. This design is intended to sit back and blast the enemy forces from afar.
Hunter: Many shot ranged missile attacks, jump packs, very fast and agile, has Move through Cover and Split Fire, but has less defense - IE either a 4+/5++ or a 3+/no invun. This variant is intended to hit first and hit hard, wiping out whole units with masses of short ranged missiles before retreating back into cover. However it lacks the armour for extended engagements and will vanish if the enemy gets a few good shots in at it.
Line Breaker: A heavy, but short ranged, cannon with either an AT (high S, low AP single shot) or HE (mid S, mid AP, single shot large blast), some anti personal weapon mounts (Burst cannon and/or Flamers), a single long ranged missile pod attack (long range, mid to low S, mid to high AP, no more than three shots), some form of anti-assault mine on the legs (think a claymore) to dissuade assaults, FNP and a monstrously good save of 2+/4++, lacks jump jets but can pay to have them, however it lacks ANY long ranged attacks (baring the missile pod weapon) and is incredibly expensive. This variant is intended to literally break the enemies lines, walking in through a withering hail of fire and breaking them wide open with powerful but short ranged attacks.
Tactical: Has a mixture of medium range, mid to high strength, mid AP attacks. Has jump jets and a save of 3+/6++. Overall a jack of all trades master of none.
There we have it, three variants each specialised in one thing but at the cost of being weak in another, whilst the fourth can do a bit of everything but cannot compete with the specialised variants.
Of course, it would be even better to make it a vehicle (it should be) but that would leave Tau player whining about how rubbish their no longer overpowered as hell monstrosity is.
Can we please stop talking about removal? It's such a dumb and lazy idea that will ultimately render people's very expensive models that they may have spent countless hours painting as shelf ornaments. We have enough units like that that have been removed from the game already.
Make it flexible but give each aspect limitations - EG:
Fire support: Heavy long ranged weapons (think S D super railgun, etc) and maybe one or two close in defence weapons (Burst Cannon) but has a 3+ armour save, loses its jump packs, will be murdered in assault and cannot move and fire its main gun. This design is intended to sit back and blast the enemy forces from afar.
Already exists, to an extent - the Jet Packs are removed to allow for heavier armour and the Submunition Cannons. It's a very specific reactionary design that has seen limited combat, as it struggles to fit into any Tau strategy outside of static defence. This makes it even more rare than a standard Riptide.
Hunter: Many shot ranged missile attacks, jump packs, very fast and agile, has Move through Cover and Split Fire, but has less defense - IE either a 4+/5++ or a 3+/no invun. This variant is intended to hit first and hit hard, wiping out whole units with masses of short ranged missiles before retreating back into cover. However it lacks the armour for extended engagements and will vanish if the enemy gets a few good shots in at it.
Already exists, sort of - still just as tough, but has a different Shield Generator that provides a ++5 or a ++4 against attacks that are closer than 12" away. Also an experiment of an experiment.
Line Breaker: A heavy, but short ranged, cannon with either an AT (high S, low AP single shot) or HE (mid S, mid AP, single shot large blast), some anti personal weapon mounts (Burst cannon and/or Flamers), a single long ranged missile pod attack (long range, mid to low S, mid to high AP, no more than three shots), some form of anti-assault mine on the legs (think a claymore) to dissuade assaults, FNP and a monstrously good save of 2+/4++, lacks jump jets but can pay to have them, however it lacks ANY long ranged attacks (baring the missile pod weapon) and is incredibly expensive. This variant is intended to literally break the enemies lines, walking in through a withering hail of fire and breaking them wide open with powerful but short ranged attacks.
Doesn't fit into Mont'ka or Kauyon at all when it lacks a Jet Pack - useless to the Tau in other words.
There we have it, three variants each specialised in one thing but at the cost of being weak in another, whilst the fourth can do a bit of everything but cannot compete with the specialised variants. Of course, it would be even better to make it a vehicle (it should be) but that would leave Tau player whining about how rubbish their no longer overpowered as hell monstrosity is.
Those designs make no sense overall regarding the Tau way of warfare; the roles that they fulfil have already been created by the Forge World suits on a level more believable for Tau tech and tactics. Once again, the Riptide's weaknesses are its rarity and the Nova Reactor that charges it; just make it a Walker, make it a little more expensive, and put a limit on how many you can take based on how many points the player is bringing. Why does this have to be so complicated?
Because right now the Riptide can do everything at once without having to sacrifice anything in order to do it. It is incredibly good and capable of acting as a mobile artillery platform, assault gun, infantry hunter, tank hunter and point defence. At once. Without any sacrifice. For 180 points. 180 points is A Leman Russ with A upgrade.
The Riptide is overpowered as hell and needs a nerf.
The Riptide is overpowered as hell and needs a nerf.
So increase its points and limit it to 1 per army, or something like "1 per 1000 points". Could also do some tweaks to the Nova Reactor to make it more dangerous to use, and increase the price of the Ion Accelerator.
No need to complicate it with variants that don't fit lore wise and would all need separate Codex entries and attention if they go wrong.
The Riptide is overpowered as hell and needs a nerf.
So increase its points and limit it to 1 per army, or something like "1 per 1000 points". Could also do some tweaks to the Nova Reactor to make it more dangerous to use, and increase the price of the Ion Accelerator.
No need to complicate it with variants that don't fit lore wise and would all need separate Codex entries and attention if they go wrong.
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Unquietemu wrote: Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.
They are not fine no matter how many times you repeat it. Lists get around the inability to actually kill them at range by using invisibility on melee death stars. When you have to resort to that, it is NOT fine. T6 W5 2+ 3++/5+++ should cost a lot more than the Riptide does because it is virtually immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game.
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
12/12/12 or 12/12/11. As big as it is, there is no way it should have more armour than a Medium tank (12 is about Medium average, 13 is more for heavies and MBT's, and 14 is for breakthrough tanks) given that it is so mobile. Combine that with a 5++ save (Nova'd to 4++) with 5 HP and the ability to jump 12" or walk the usual 6" and it would be good.
12/12/12 or 12/12/11. As big as it is, there is no way it should have more armour than a Medium tank (12 is about Medium average, 13 is more for heavies and MBT's, and 14 is for breakthrough tanks) given that it is so mobile. Combine that with a 5++ save (Nova'd to 4++) with 5 HP and the ability to jump 12" or walk the usual 6" and it would be good.
Considering a Hammerhead has front armour 13 thanks to regular Tau Composite armour, the Riptide should at least have that with a much stronger and tougher Nanocrystalline alloy on its front.
Unquietemu wrote: Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.
They are not fine no matter how many times you repeat it. Lists get around the inability to actually kill them at range by using invisibility on melee death stars. When you have to resort to that, it is NOT fine. T6 W5 2+ 3++/5+++ should cost a lot more than the Riptide does because it is virtually immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game.
Invisible death stars would exist regardless of the Riptides' existence. 3++ is also not guaranteed, nor is the Riptide immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game. Plasma, melta, and grav are all easily acquired in some variety or another by pretty much every army in the game. All of which ignore the Riptides armor & wound it on a 2+. And are also capable, in most cases, of being dropped in close to the Riptide.
That said, even ignoring armor and wounding well, the Riptide takes an absurd amount of fire to kill. You need an average of 51 BS4 Plasma Gun shots to kill an FNP'd Riptide with its 3++ up (which, while not guaranteed, does go off a majority of the time if it wants). With Melta's that number drops to 41 but you get half as many shots. Grav is the only real equalizer, and often involves utilizing units many people consider nearly or just as broken as the Riptide.
Unquietemu wrote: Wow all these tears in one place I can't possibly drink them all. Riptides are fine in the current meta where we have so many powerful armies rolling around, and the funny thing is that Riptides haven't been able to elevate the Tau to a top tier army, so I guess the Tau need the rest of their army to be made stronger in order to nerf the riptide.
They are not fine no matter how many times you repeat it. Lists get around the inability to actually kill them at range by using invisibility on melee death stars. When you have to resort to that, it is NOT fine. T6 W5 2+ 3++/5+++ should cost a lot more than the Riptide does because it is virtually immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game.
Invisible death stars would exist regardless of the Riptides' existence. 3++ is also not guaranteed, nor is the Riptide immune to almost every ranged weapon in the game. Plasma, melta, and grav are all easily acquired in some variety or another by pretty much every army in the game. All of which ignore the Riptides armor & wound it on a 2+. And are also capable, in most cases, of being dropped in close to the Riptide.
Hyperbole doesn't help any argument here.
That's the problem; it's not hyperbole. Do the math. You can't physically drop in enough melta/plasma to threaten even a single Riptide. Especially after the drop pod door ruling.
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
You're on your way to possibly the worst unit in the game.
A 14/12/10 Jetpack walker with an Ion Accelerator for 300+ is effectively a Leman Russ for twice the points. Plus its gun gets hot. Sure, it has the 'advantage' that it can lock a lot of units in the game in combat indefinitely... but the Riptide is not supposed to be a 300pt combat tarpit.
Would you take a Dreadnaught with a battle cannon for 340pts? I'm guessing no way in hell.
In the current game, 300+ points gets you a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight.
I don't understand why anybody would want to make the Riptide into a walker when walkers are currently one of the worst types of units in the game. Combat vehicles in general really struggle to be relevant because of the vehicle damage table and lack of saves makes them nearly useless when taking fire. I dislike the Riptide because of what it currently is (does everything a bit too well) but I hope most of these suggestions never happen because it would just make the thing useless.
Vankraken wrote: I don't understand why anybody would want to make the Riptide into a walker when walkers are currently one of the worst types of units in the game. Combat vehicles in general really struggle to be relevant because of the vehicle damage table and lack of saves makes them nearly useless when taking fire. I dislike the Riptide because of what it currently is (does everything a bit too well) but I hope most of these suggestions never happen because it would just make the thing useless.
Some people want to make it a walker vehicle because it should have been a walker vehicle from the very beginning. It's a robot with a pilot.
The fact that most walker vehicles are almost useless in the current meta has nothing to do with that, it's a problem with the game rules.
It's like saying, hey footslogging infantry sucks so let's give this character a sledge pulled by wolves.
Vankraken wrote: I don't understand why anybody would want to make the Riptide into a walker when walkers are currently one of the worst types of units in the game. Combat vehicles in general really struggle to be relevant because of the vehicle damage table and lack of saves makes them nearly useless when taking fire. I dislike the Riptide because of what it currently is (does everything a bit too well) but I hope most of these suggestions never happen because it would just make the thing useless.
Giant Robot with marine inside - > walker Robot with guard inside -> walker Giant robot with ork inside -> walker Robot with grot inside -> walker
Giant robot with tau inside -> MC, for some reason
Yeah. Why one would think about a walker looking at the Riptide. Weird.
I blame 3rd edition eldar codex (Wraithlord).
Btw in the same codex (and today) we have robot (essentially legs + weapons) with eldar inside -> walker
And btw, this answer is the same kind of answer I found in the Grav thread. Marine players saying "b-but we n-need the Grav to deal with huge threats, we are alon with our pathetic demi-company and skyhammer, poor us *tears*". Well, tell that to the guard. But this is beyond the point. The point is that then the issue is how the power level of the game has scaled and some stuff has been left to dust. Fix how walkers work, making a Dread, a Defiler (AHAHAHAHAH) or a VehicleTide viable. Do not scale all up to eleven because (1) it just increases the escalation (2) other armies will be left in the dust creating more imbalance.
Said this, I would just follow Martel and remove FnP, and put the Armor Save at 3+. If is still too OP, nerf more next edition but IMHO is ok. We should never, ever fall in the same trap those hack frauds working as designers for GW always fall into: overbuff and overnerf units, especially not taking in account the changes in core rules and meta (the second can be forgiven, the first not).
Sure it probably should be a walker in label but the issue is that the walker rules (this is a discussion about rule mechanics) do not accurately reflect the more agile walkers while MCs do. Also walker rules are just bad in general so trying to fit something that is a High Toughness and 2+ armor, an invuln save, and FNP into the format of an vehicle that has AV, no armor saves, and nothing relatable to FNP. Also Walkers cannot thrust move, have the horrible damage table that makes them nearly useless as a shooting platform, and explode like popcorn to things like melta.
The point I'm trying to make it that mechanically MC "walkers" work while Walker "walkers" are generally hot garbage and collect dust on shelves. No point in trying to convert a functional unit like the Riptide (that has a lot of rules that don't really convert into vehicle rules) into the format of a Walker and even come close to retaining any sort of similarity between them in terms of what this unit does on the table top.
Look at it this way. Before the last codex was released, people considered that 20 points for the Ion Accelerator wasn't an unreasonable change for the Riptide's entry. What happened? A functional reprint that included the possibility of squads of riptides. What does this mean? GW is a business that wants people to 'buy moar modelz!'.
It would require a reboot of the game ala 3rd to change things. If that happens, there is no telling where Riptides would be in the power curve, especially when everything else gets rebalanced too.
If I recall correctly, the Empire Steam Tank originally had a MC statline. Would it be reasonable to do the same for the other vehicles in the game? Rhinos being T6W3 models, Land Raiders being T10W4? Defilers being T8W3, etc?
12/12/12 or 12/12/11. As big as it is, there is no way it should have more armour than a Medium tank (12 is about Medium average, 13 is more for heavies and MBT's, and 14 is for breakthrough tanks) given that it is so mobile. Combine that with a 5++ save (Nova'd to 4++) with 5 HP and the ability to jump 12" or walk the usual 6" and it would be good.
Considering a Hammerhead has front armour 13 thanks to regular Tau Composite armour, the Riptide should at least have that with a much stronger and tougher Nanocrystalline alloy on its front.
Not really, you see the Riptide has a lot more space for that armour to cover, and it is also a lot more agile. If we use Konflikt 47 Walkers as a good model (trust me, they are) for this, then Armour 12/12/12 is not actually that bad. It is still fast and agile, it still has its insane firepower and invun save, but it cannot directly compete with MBT's and heavier walkers in a straight up firefight (it should not be able too).
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
You're on your way to possibly the worst unit in the game.
A 14/12/10 Jetpack walker with an Ion Accelerator for 300+ is effectively a Leman Russ for twice the points. Plus its gun gets hot. Sure, it has the 'advantage' that it can lock a lot of units in the game in combat indefinitely... but the Riptide is not supposed to be a 300pt combat tarpit.
Would you take a Dreadnaught with a battle cannon for 340pts? I'm guessing no way in hell.
In the current game, 300+ points gets you a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight.
Too bad, so sad. The Tau already have enough pretty toys and fancy pieces, and this one needs a nerf. At 230 points with Armour 12/12/12, 5 HP and a 5++ save it would be balanced. Right now it is incredibly OP.
I could get behind that, how about 280 - 340 points?
Sounds in the right ball park, though I don't feel qualified enough to pinpoint exactly how much. I'd definitely make the Ion Accelerator a 10-15 point upgrade rather than a 5 point one.
As for the Nova Reactor, make it more dangerous to use after each success with it. So the first time you use it, you fail on a 1; second time, fail on a 1 or 2; third time, fail on a 1,2, or 3, and so on.
Combine that with a 13/12/11 or 14/12/10 Jet Pack Walker and we're on our way to a better Riptide.
You're on your way to possibly the worst unit in the game.
A 14/12/10 Jetpack walker with an Ion Accelerator for 300+ is effectively a Leman Russ for twice the points. Plus its gun gets hot. Sure, it has the 'advantage' that it can lock a lot of units in the game in combat indefinitely... but the Riptide is not supposed to be a 300pt combat tarpit.
Would you take a Dreadnaught with a battle cannon for 340pts? I'm guessing no way in hell.
In the current game, 300+ points gets you a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight.
1: There is no way the riptide would be a AV 14/12/10 at most it should be 12/12/11. if my morkanaut is 13/13/12 and stumbles around the field like a drunken lunatic then a Tau walker should be a lot less in regards to armor.
2: If you added 100pts to the riptide it would still be viable for how tough it is. If you made it a walker with jump rules all you have done is make it a vehicle which is should have been from the start.
3: You just compared adding 100pts to the riptide to Wraithknights and Imperial Knights, two units that the vast majority of the gaming community feels are drastically under-costed.
This is another prime example of the "have" armies complaining when people point out how horribly unbalanced their favorite toys are.
master of ordinance wrote: Not really, you see the Riptide has a lot more space for that armour to cover, and it is also a lot more agile.
The actual armour plates primarily cover the front half of the Suit. Both Composite and Nanocrystalline alloy are light materials; combine that with a Jet Pack and a Nova Reactor and you have your fast moving walker.
It is still fast and agile, it still has its insane firepower and invun save, but it cannot directly compete with MBT's and heavier walkers in a straight up firefight (it should not be able too).
It should be able to compete with Battle Tanks and Heavy Walkers - that's all part of its design. Giving it an armour value akin to a Armoured Sentinel massed produced in a Manufactorum doesn't seem very accurate.
SemperMortis wrote:
1: There is no way the riptide would be a AV 14/12/10 at most it should be 12/12/11. if my morkanaut is 13/13/12 and stumbles around the field like a drunken lunatic then a Tau walker should be a lot less in regards to armor.
The Morkanaut doesn't have a Nova Reactor or a Jet Pack, and it's built by Orks who layer whatever scrap they can find on top of each other to create thicker armour. Of course it isn't going to be as graceful as something that has been precision engineered and powered by the Earth Caste, using protective materials far superior to even Imperial Ceramite and Plasteel.
This is another prime example of the "have" armies complaining when people point out how horribly unbalanced their favorite toys are.
I may as well mention for any record that I don't own a Riptide; I have painted one for a friend, and I have played with it once, back when it was first released. Currently I own a Tau SC set, which I am painting for a casual tournament, before they probably hit the shelf for long periods of time.
I only feel qualified to comment about the lore behind the Riptide really, and how that should translate into the game. However, appreciating that the TT game of 40k is often very inaccurate regarding the power of units in the lore, I would accept that a compromise would perhaps be necessary for the Riptide to continue to see the tabletop. Would still be unhappy, but accepting for the sake of a prospect of fair and fun play.
I think the best approach honestly is a points increase; where everyone wants to go from there, I dunno. The Riptide should still remain as a tough cookie that brings heavy firepower and good manoeuvrability to the table - it just needs a points cost to reflect this fairly.
Tau Riptide. Ws 2 BS 3 S5 T6 W5 LD9 3+ 150 points, TLSMS/PR/FB standard
50 points- offensive weapons suite: The riptide can take 2 main weapons, of either the IA with only normal and overcharge profile, and the HBC (the formerly nova profile becomes an "overcharge" to keep its gets hot profile) , keeps assault thrust (but cannot 4d6 thrust since not nova)
60 Points- Balanced suite: Riptide gains the riptide shield generator, and can take 1 main weapon. Gains the ability to nova charge. keeps assault thrust
70 points- Defensive suite: Riptide armor improves to 2+ gains the riptide shield generator, access to nova charge, a 2nd SMS/PR/FB, and stimulant injectors, loses assault thrust from the 2+ armor (broadside style)
If you want a killy riptide, you can still have it, but its closer to a glass hammer, fairly easy to take down.
if you like the classic riptide, its there, still in generally a more vulnerable platform, no stimms, so 1/3rd more vulnerable, and a few more points
if you want the tank it all beast (the one most complained about on this post), you can, but you have acceptable, but inferior weapons, and it does pay for the survivability. Granted its still jet-pack MC in this imagining, so its not worthless (just nearly) in CC,
The Morkanaut doesn't have a Nova Reactor or a Jet Pack, and it's built by Orks who layer whatever scrap they can find on top of each other to create thicker armour. Of course it isn't going to be as graceful as something that has been precision engineered and powered by the Earth Caste, using protective materials far superior to even Imperial Ceramite and Plasteel.
G.A
Lets compare then shall we.
Morkanaut costs 230pts. It has AV13/13/12 with 5HPs It is a walker so it is slow as all hell, suffers from difficult terrain (though it can't be immobilized at least) and technically (I really have to emphasize this part) it is a transport with room for 6 models. It carries for weapons 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 Rokkitz, a KMB and a KMK. Total that equals 6 TL S5AP5 shots at 36in, 2 S8 AP3 shots at 24in, 1 S8 AP2 GETS HOT shot at 24in and 1 S8AP2 small blast gets hot at 36in. ALL of which are BS2. It has no Invul save unless you spend 50pts to upgrade it to have a 5++ bubble against shooting only. in CC it has a S10 AP1 Initiative 2 Klaw
A Riptide on the other hand is 180pts T6 W5 with a 2+ 5++ JET PACK monstrous creature. It is immune to Night fighting and blind effects, has a built in multitracker so it can shoot multiple weapons, has the Nova reactor which is a 2/3rds chance of giving yourself incredible buffs. Comes standard with a Heavy Burst cannon S6 AP4 Heavy 8 and a SMS for S5 AP5 homing, ignores cover at ranges 36 and 30 respectively. All of that is also at BS3. Now considering there is a 50pt difference between the two you would think "Why is the riptide cheaper?" And it only gets worse.
The Morkanaut fully upgraded costs about 300pts, and for those extra 70pts you get a 5++ bubble and a IWND roll. The Riptide on the other hand? for a mere 45pts (225 total now) it can add interceptor, Ion Accelorator and stimulant injector (5+ FNP). And if you really want to go overboard you can throw in 2 shield drones for 50pts.
So for 275pts compared to the Morkanauts 300 you now have a T6 5wound Jet pack monstrous creature with 2+ 5++(Possibly 3++) and a 5+ FNP. It is now armed with a Ion Accelerator which has 3 different weapon profiles, but basically can be a range 72 S9Ap2 Large blast with gets hot. Probably the same SMS system, 2 Missile drones which are armed with S7Ap4 range 36 assault 2 missiles and those little drones are also T6 with 4+/4++.
Let me sum that up for you. Fully upgraded the Riptide is Cheaper, Faster, Tougher, harder hitting and more accurate then the Morkanaut. The only place the Morkanaut beats the Riptide is in CC, and really it is a matter of opinion since the Riptide has Smash attacks but is only WS2. of course the trade off is that the Morkanaut has no saves in CC so if it gets hit with a Power Fist or Melta bomb it could die dramatically from a single hit while the Riptide has to be stripped of ALL its wounds.
So all the fluff reasons in the world wont fix the HUGE imbalance between the two. Fluff is fine. The game reflecting the fluff is OK but that is why we have a points system and the problem is that the Riptide isn't accurately represented by the points system.
You have my sympathy as an ORK player, but outside of the 5++ bubble, the Morkanaut isn't even competitive with other walkers. I'd gladly upgrade/update your vehicle with something to bring it in line. But somewhere between bringing the bottom up and the top down to the middle should be our goal. Not to make everyone suffer like I do, or the power creep constantly bringing things up has repeatedly caused.
master of ordinance wrote:
Not really, you see the Riptide has a lot more space for that armour to cover, and it is also a lot more agile.
The actual armour plates primarily cover the front half of the Suit. Both Composite and Nanocrystalline alloy are light materials; combine that with a Jet Pack and a Nova Reactor and you have your fast moving walker.
Okay, then make it 13/11/11. Or 12/12/11. It is still no where near as tough as an actual dedicated tank, no matter how fancy its armour tech is.
It is still fast and agile, it still has its insane firepower and invun save, but it cannot directly compete with MBT's and heavier walkers in a straight up firefight (it should not be able too).
It should be able to compete with Battle Tanks and Heavy Walkers - that's all part of its design. Giving it an armour value akin to a Armoured Sentinel massed produced in a Manufactorum doesn't seem very accurate.
Yes it should be able to compete with them, but not in a direct slugging fest. In a direct slugging fest it should lose horrifically. The Riptide should beat enemy tanks by using its agility to flank them, moving around and picking off the vulnerable ones before fading back into cover. It should have good firepower and good manoeuvrability, but average at best armour. So 12/12/12 is fine.
SemperMortis wrote:
1: There is no way the riptide would be a AV 14/12/10 at most it should be 12/12/11. if my morkanaut is 13/13/12 and stumbles around the field like a drunken lunatic then a Tau walker should be a lot less in regards to armor.
The Morkanaut doesn't have a Nova Reactor or a Jet Pack, and it's built by Orks who layer whatever scrap they can find on top of each other to create thicker armour. Of course it isn't going to be as graceful as something that has been precision engineered and powered by the Earth Caste, using protective materials far superior to even Imperial Ceramite and Plasteel.
The Morkanaut has a lot more armour than the Riptide does, even if it does come from sheer mass of steel. And BTW, your Nova Reactor and Jump Pack do not add to your armour, one is a power source and the other a manoeuvre aid.
This is another prime example of the "have" armies complaining when people point out how horribly unbalanced their favorite toys are.
I may as well mention for any record that I don't own a Riptide; I have painted one for a friend, and I have played with it once, back when it was first released. Currently I own a Tau SC set, which I am painting for a casual tournament, before they probably hit the shelf for long periods of time.
Okay, so you dont own one. But either way, the Riptide is still far too powerful to exist as it does.
I think the best approach honestly is a points increase; where everyone wants to go from there, I dunno. The Riptide should still remain as a tough cookie that brings heavy firepower and good manoeuvrability to the table - it just needs a points cost to reflect this fairly.
G.A
A points increase only solves part of the problem. What about Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, Killa Kans, etc. They are all walkers and yet all of them have a hiher ratio of organic components to that of the Riptide, so why does only the Riptide get special treatment?
Morkanaut costs 230pts. It has AV13/13/12 with 5HPs It is a walker so it is slow as all hell, suffers from difficult terrain (though it can't be immobilized at least) and technically (I really have to emphasize this part) it is a transport with room for 6 models. It carries for weapons 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 Rokkitz, a KMB and a KMK. Total that equals 6 TL S5AP5 shots at 36in, 2 S8 AP3 shots at 24in, 1 S8 AP2 GETS HOT shot at 24in and 1 S8AP2 small blast gets hot at 36in. ALL of which are BS2. It has no Invul save unless you spend 50pts to upgrade it to have a 5++ bubble against shooting only. in CC it has a S10 AP1 Initiative 2 Klaw
A Riptide on the other hand is 180pts T6 W5 with a 2+ 5++ JET PACK monstrous creature. It is immune to Night fighting and blind effects, has a built in multitracker so it can shoot multiple weapons, has the Nova reactor which is a 2/3rds chance of giving yourself incredible buffs. Comes standard with a Heavy Burst cannon S6 AP4 Heavy 8 and a SMS for S5 AP5 homing, ignores cover at ranges 36 and 30 respectively. All of that is also at BS3. Now considering there is a 50pt difference between the two you would think "Why is the riptide cheaper?" And it only gets worse.
The Morkanaut fully upgraded costs about 300pts, and for those extra 70pts you get a 5++ bubble and a IWND roll. The Riptide on the other hand? for a mere 45pts (225 total now) it can add interceptor, Ion Accelorator and stimulant injector (5+ FNP). And if you really want to go overboard you can throw in 2 shield drones for 50pts.
So for 275pts compared to the Morkanauts 300 you now have a T6 5wound Jet pack monstrous creature with 2+ 5++(Possibly 3++) and a 5+ FNP. It is now armed with a Ion Accelerator which has 3 different weapon profiles, but basically can be a range 72 S9Ap2 Large blast with gets hot. Probably the same SMS system, 2 Missile drones which are armed with S7Ap4 range 36 assault 2 missiles and those little drones are also T6 with 4+/4++.
Let me sum that up for you. Fully upgraded the Riptide is Cheaper, Faster, Tougher, harder hitting and more accurate then the Morkanaut. The only place the Morkanaut beats the Riptide is in CC, and really it is a matter of opinion since the Riptide has Smash attacks but is only WS2. of course the trade off is that the Morkanaut has no saves in CC so if it gets hit with a Power Fist or Melta bomb it could die dramatically from a single hit while the Riptide has to be stripped of ALL its wounds.
I think you missed the point I was making here. You said that a Riptide should be just as slow as a Morkanaut because they share the same level of toughness. The Riptide is a far more sophisticated design using tougher but lighter materials, hence why it can move about as fast as it can yet still take a beating from incoming fire. If its armour was weak, then it'd almost entirely fail to do better on what Crisis Suits can do already (lore wise).
The game reflecting the fluff is OK but that is why we have a points system and the problem is that the Riptide isn't accurately represented by the points system.
I agree with this. Not sure when I didn't really.
master of ordinance wrote:Okay, then make it 13/11/11. Or 12/12/11. It is still no where near as tough as an actual dedicated tank, no matter how fancy its armour tech is.
The fancy armour tech is exactly why it's just as tough as a something like a Predator. The only reason it isn't as tough as a Land Raider or Leman Russ Tank is because the weight allowance of the frame has also been dedicated to a heavy Jet Pack, Main Weapon and Shield Generator. It still has to resist fire much better than a Sentinel, and certainly much better than Crisis Suits.
Yes it should be able to compete with them, but not in a direct slugging fest. In a direct slugging fest it should lose horrifically. The Riptide should beat enemy tanks by using its agility to flank them, moving around and picking off the vulnerable ones before fading back into cover. It should have good firepower and good manoeuvrability, but average at best armour. So 12/12/12 is fine.
Depends on the Tank really, but a Riptide has been designed in mind to both ambush and destroy a target, but still be able to hold its ground if the tank gets the chance to retaliate. It's certainly not impervious, nor is it best suited to take a heavy tank straight on - a Leman Russ would probably be able to blow it right open if it was in front of its sights. Against a medium tank like a Predator, the Riptide would still have the advantage even out in the open.
The Morkanaut has a lot more armour than the Riptide does, even if it does come from sheer mass of steel. And BTW, your Nova Reactor and Jump Pack do not add to your armour, one is a power source and the other a manoeuvre aid.
Hence why the Morkanaut lumbers across the battlefield like the hulk of junk it is - the Riptide could have just as much armour thanks to the material being used to build it being so much lighter. I also didn't say the Pack and Reactor added to armour in any way - it was attributing to the Riptide's manoeuvrability
Okay, so you don't own one. But either way, the Riptide is still far too powerful to exist as it does.
Again I agree. Don't know when I didn't.
The disclaimer was more to stop anyone calling me out as someone who's grown too attached to their OP toys. I don't play the game anymore; frankly I don't care about the state of the game anymore as I've learned to accept it's screwed as a system by which I can enjoy my evenings with friends. I'm here to contribute about what the Riptide should be (as per the title of this thread) and possibly suggest some light ideas on improvement to the unit to make it more fair and fun to play against. Although ultimately, the latter part of that statement doesn't affect me at all.
Disclaimer no.2: Orks are my second favourite faction in the universe. And no, Tau are not my number 1.
A points increase only solves part of the problem. What about Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, Killa Kans, etc. They are all walkers and yet all of them have a hiher ratio of organic components to that of the Riptide, so why does only the Riptide get special treatment?
A higher ratio of organic components than a Riptide? Don't all of them have an Organic Pilot and a Mechanical Body?
Plus I'm pretty sure even in my naivety that Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, and Killa Kans aren't considered to be "OP" by the majority of 40k players. This shouldn't be considered to be special treatment for the Riptide - it's something to put it back in line while still resembling what it should be.
Morkanaut costs 230pts. It has AV13/13/12 with 5HPs It is a walker so it is slow as all hell, suffers from difficult terrain (though it can't be immobilized at least) and technically (I really have to emphasize this part) it is a transport with room for 6 models. It carries for weapons 2 TL Big Shootas, 2 Rokkitz, a KMB and a KMK. Total that equals 6 TL S5AP5 shots at 36in, 2 S8 AP3 shots at 24in, 1 S8 AP2 GETS HOT shot at 24in and 1 S8AP2 small blast gets hot at 36in. ALL of which are BS2. It has no Invul save unless you spend 50pts to upgrade it to have a 5++ bubble against shooting only. in CC it has a S10 AP1 Initiative 2 Klaw
A Riptide on the other hand is 180pts T6 W5 with a 2+ 5++ JET PACK monstrous creature. It is immune to Night fighting and blind effects, has a built in multitracker so it can shoot multiple weapons, has the Nova reactor which is a 2/3rds chance of giving yourself incredible buffs. Comes standard with a Heavy Burst cannon S6 AP4 Heavy 8 and a SMS for S5 AP5 homing, ignores cover at ranges 36 and 30 respectively. All of that is also at BS3. Now considering there is a 50pt difference between the two you would think "Why is the riptide cheaper?" And it only gets worse.
The Morkanaut fully upgraded costs about 300pts, and for those extra 70pts you get a 5++ bubble and a IWND roll. The Riptide on the other hand? for a mere 45pts (225 total now) it can add interceptor, Ion Accelorator and stimulant injector (5+ FNP). And if you really want to go overboard you can throw in 2 shield drones for 50pts.
So for 275pts compared to the Morkanauts 300 you now have a T6 5wound Jet pack monstrous creature with 2+ 5++(Possibly 3++) and a 5+ FNP. It is now armed with a Ion Accelerator which has 3 different weapon profiles, but basically can be a range 72 S9Ap2 Large blast with gets hot. Probably the same SMS system, 2 Missile drones which are armed with S7Ap4 range 36 assault 2 missiles and those little drones are also T6 with 4+/4++.
Let me sum that up for you. Fully upgraded the Riptide is Cheaper, Faster, Tougher, harder hitting and more accurate then the Morkanaut. The only place the Morkanaut beats the Riptide is in CC, and really it is a matter of opinion since the Riptide has Smash attacks but is only WS2. of course the trade off is that the Morkanaut has no saves in CC so if it gets hit with a Power Fist or Melta bomb it could die dramatically from a single hit while the Riptide has to be stripped of ALL its wounds.
I think you missed the point I was making here. You said that a Riptide should be just as slow as a Morkanaut because they share the same level of toughness. The Riptide is a far more sophisticated design using tougher but lighter materials, hence why it can move about as fast as it can yet still take a beating from incoming fire. If its armour was weak, then it'd almost entirely fail to do better on Crisis Suits can do already (lore wise).
The point he is making is that the Morkanought has a lot more armour than the Riptide, and I really mean a lot more. As in literal feet of armour. The Riptide, on the other hand, has a few inches of advanced armour. No matter how good that armour, it does still not equate an AV of 13.
master of ordinance wrote:Okay, then make it 13/11/11. Or 12/12/11. It is still no where near as tough as an actual dedicated tank, no matter how fancy its armour tech is.
The fancy armour tech is exactly why it's just as tough as a something like a Predator. The only reason it isn't as tough as a Land Raider or Leman Russ Tank is because the weight allowance of the frame has also been dedicated to a heavy Jet Pack, Main Weapon and Shield Generator. It still has to resist fire much better than a Sentinel, and certainly much better than Crisis Suits.
I am not so sure about that. You see, you have a small amount of fancy armour. Not a lot of it and certainly not as much as a Hammerhead, What's more, the Riptide has open and unarmoured sections (joints) and most of its armour is flat and slabbish as opposed to the sloping on the Hammerhead. Factor in the weight tolerances of a jump pack and gyro and your battle suit cannot really have enough armour to have more than 12 arr round (and even that is pushing it). As for the resisting fire thing, that comes from your shield generator (invun save) and larger frame (more HP).
Yes it should be able to compete with them, but not in a direct slugging fest. In a direct slugging fest it should lose horrifically. The Riptide should beat enemy tanks by using its agility to flank them, moving around and picking off the vulnerable ones before fading back into cover. It should have good firepower and good manoeuvrability, but average at best armour. So 12/12/12 is fine.
Depends on the Tank really, but a Riptide has been designed in mind to both ambush and destroy a target, but still be able to hold its ground if the tank gets the chance to retaliate. It's certainly not impervious, nor is it best suited to take a heavy tank straight on - a Leman Russ would probably be able to blow it right open if it was in front of its sights. Against a medium tank like a Predator, the Riptide would still have the advantage even out in the open.
Exactly my point, it was intended to ambush and destroy tanks, not face them head on. Giving it AV 13 would let it engage tanks head on and live, especially with 4/5HP. Giving it AV 12 will remove its ability to out tank tanks, but will still make it tough enough to withstand retaliatory fire if it fails to eliminate its target outright.
The Morkanaut has a lot more armour than the Riptide does, even if it does come from sheer mass of steel. And BTW, your Nova Reactor and Jump Pack do not add to your armour, one is a power source and the other a manoeuvre aid.
Hence why the Morkanaut lumbers across the battlefield like the hulk of junk it is - the Riptide could have just as much armour thanks to the material being used to build it being so much lighter. I also didn't say the Pack and Reactor added to armour in any way - it was attributing to the Riptide's manoeuvrability
Yes, but the Riptide also has to dedicate tonnage and space to an advanced Jump Pack, which would also require reinforced shock absorbers in the legs, an advanced and upgraded gyro stabiliser, recoil absorbers, etc.
Okay, so you don't own one. But either way, the Riptide is still far too powerful to exist as it does.
Again I agree. Don't know when I didn't.
Glad we agree
A points increase only solves part of the problem. What about Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, Killa Kans, etc. They are all walkers and yet all of them have a hiher ratio of organic components to that of the Riptide, so why does only the Riptide get special treatment?
A higher ratio of organic components than a Riptide? Don't all of them have an Organic Pilot and a Mechanical Body?
Plus I'm pretty sure even in my naivety that Sentinels, Knights, Dreadnoughts, and Killa Kans aren't considered to be "OP" by the majority of 40k players. This shouldn't be considered to be special treatment for the Riptide - it's something to put it back in line while still resembling what it should be.
Basically, the amount of space taken up by the organic component ((Pilot) in a Dreadnought or Sentinel is proportionally a far larger percentage than that dedicated to mechanical components than that of the Riptide, because the Riptide is larger and therefore the pilot takes up proportionally less space in it than he does in the Sentinel or Dreadnought. However the Riptide is the only one of those to be classed as an MC, something which brings a huge advantage over being classed as a Walker.
The point he is making is that the Morkanought has a lot more armour than the Riptide, and I really mean a lot more. As in literal feet of armour. The Riptide, on the other hand, has a few inches of advanced armour. No matter how good that armour, it does still not equate an AV of 13.
Would a bullet travel through an inch of Titanium or 10 feet of Bread? Thickness is a relative term depending on the material being discussed. A few inches of Nanocrystalline can easily be considered to be on par with a foot of Ork junk metal.
I am not so sure about that. You see, you have a small amount of fancy armour. Not a lot of it and certainly not as much as a Hammerhead
A Hammerhead uses regular Tau Composite, which isn't as tough as Nanocrystalline Alloy.
What's more, the Riptide has open and unarmoured sections (joints) and most of its armour is flat and slabbish as opposed to the sloping on the Hammerhead.
The unarmoured sections are mostly at the sides and rear, however most of the time you'll be hitting the Riptide's armour at an angle - the torso plating is already angled downwards, and typically you wouldn't be hitting its legs flat on as they'd be bent or in motion.
Exactly my point, it was intended to ambush and destroy tanks, not face them head on. Giving it AV 13 would let it engage tanks head on and live, especially with 4/5HP. Giving it AV 12 will remove its ability to out tank tanks, but will still make it tough enough to withstand retaliatory fire if it fails to eliminate its target outright.
I would just give it AV13 and less HP (3-4) - still relatively okay to penetrate (and destroy) from the front if you have the right tools.
Yes, but the Riptide also has to dedicate tonnage and space to an advanced Jump Pack, which would also require reinforced shock absorbers in the legs, an advanced and upgraded gyro stabiliser, recoil absorbers, etc.
Hence why Nanocrystalline was developed for the Riptide - armouring it in Tau Composite would not have provided enough protection when put against weight allowance.
The Nova Reactor also helps to keep its energy requirements in check. Both of these technologies were developed exclusively for the XV104 due to the demand it needed to be a successful unit.
Glad we agree
Me too - my hands need some rest after typing through nearly 3 pages of discussion
I would add, however, that I think the power of the Riptide is fairly representative. It's definitely too cheap and unrestricted at the moment though.
Basically, the amount of space taken up by the organic component ((Pilot) in a Dreadnought or Sentinel is proportionally a far larger percentage than that dedicated to mechanical components than that of the Riptide, because the Riptide is larger and therefore the pilot takes up proportionally less space in it than he does in the Sentinel or Dreadnought. However the Riptide is the only one of those to be classed as an MC, something which brings a huge advantage over being classed as a Walker.
I get that. So what do we do about the Dreadknight?
master of ordinance wrote: The Dreadknight is an oddity. I wouldnt mind making it Infantry with a 2+ save and some special rules + a massive invun.
I was thinking that it would be ridiculous to go that route, but then I thought that it would be brilliant. Look at Karadread; a relentless power weapon and multimelta toting infantry model. What happens if we apply the same rules to other classic.MCs? The dreadknight only gets an APCC weapon if you buy one: AP3 for the sword or AP2-1 for the hammer. The riptide whiffs in cc on account that it has no access to CC weaponry. The Carnifex's profile is entirely dependent on what it is armed with.
The point he is making is that the Morkanought has a lot more armour than the Riptide, and I really mean a lot more. As in literal feet of armour. The Riptide, on the other hand, has a few inches of advanced armour. No matter how good that armour, it does still not equate an AV of 13.
Would a bullet travel through an inch of Titanium or 10 feet of Bread? Thickness is a relative term depending on the material being discussed. A few inches of Nanocrystalline can easily be considered to be on par with a foot of Ork junk metal.
I am not so sure about that. You see, you have a small amount of fancy armour. Not a lot of it and certainly not as much as a Hammerhead
A Hammerhead uses regular Tau Composite, which isn't as tough as Nanocrystalline Alloy.
What's more, the Riptide has open and unarmoured sections (joints) and most of its armour is flat and slabbish as opposed to the sloping on the Hammerhead.
The unarmoured sections are mostly at the sides and rear, however most of the time you'll be hitting the Riptide's armour at an angle - the torso plating is already angled downwards, and typically you wouldn't be hitting its legs flat on as they'd be bent or in motion.
Exactly my point, it was intended to ambush and destroy tanks, not face them head on. Giving it AV 13 would let it engage tanks head on and live, especially with 4/5HP. Giving it AV 12 will remove its ability to out tank tanks, but will still make it tough enough to withstand retaliatory fire if it fails to eliminate its target outright.
I would just give it AV13 and less HP (3-4) - still relatively okay to penetrate (and destroy) from the front if you have the right tools.
Yes, but the Riptide also has to dedicate tonnage and space to an advanced Jump Pack, which would also require reinforced shock absorbers in the legs, an advanced and upgraded gyro stabiliser, recoil absorbers, etc.
Hence why Nanocrystalline was developed for the Riptide - armouring it in Tau Composite would not have provided enough protection when put against weight allowance.
The Nova Reactor also helps to keep its energy requirements in check. Both of these technologies were developed exclusively for the XV104 due to the demand it needed to be a successful unit.
Glad we agree
Me too - my hands need some rest after typing through nearly 3 pages of discussion
I would add, however, that I think the power of the Riptide is fairly representative. It's definitely too cheap and unrestricted at the moment though.
Basically, the amount of space taken up by the organic component ((Pilot) in a Dreadnought or Sentinel is proportionally a far larger percentage than that dedicated to mechanical components than that of the Riptide, because the Riptide is larger and therefore the pilot takes up proportionally less space in it than he does in the Sentinel or Dreadnought. However the Riptide is the only one of those to be classed as an MC, something which brings a huge advantage over being classed as a Walker.
I get that. So what do we do about the Dreadknight?
So your using fluff reasons to justify why its armor would be so incredible. Ok, well since we are doing that, I think Orks should have 2-3 times the model count per squad because Fluff. All for the same price of course. So that 180pts of boys went from 30 models to 90. Because fluff.
Also I believe my army should always win because Orks are awesome, according to the fluff everything happens because orks believe it to be so, so does that mean my army should always win because the fluff says so?
Point being, don't use fluff to justify why your special snowflake toys should be more powerful and cheaper then everyone elses.
So your using fluff reasons to justify why its armor would be so incredible. Ok, well since we are doing that, I think Orks should have 2-3 times the model count per squad because Fluff. All for the same price of course. So that 180pts of boys went from 30 models to 90. Because fluff.
Not all Ork fighting parties revolve around masses of Ork Boyz - some tribes and warbands can have a very small number of ground troops depending on circumstance.
Also I believe my army should always win because Orks are awesome, according to the fluff everything happens because orks believe it to be so, so does that mean my army should always win because the fluff says so?
Just because an Ork thinks he still wins by running away so he can come back for another go, doesn't mean he's won. Also Waaagh! energy is not the be all and end all of Orks - it may make them tougher, it may make them faster, it may make them luckier and it may make them smarter; it never makes them impervious.
Point being, don't use fluff to justify why your special snowflake toys should be more powerful and cheaper then everyone elses.
Again, I don't own a Riptide, nor do I care for the rules, but thanks for demonstrating a lack of understanding of Ork background. Nothing you said can necessarily be justified in the game based on the lore, whereas the toughness and firepower of a Riptide can
Martel732 wrote: " whereas the toughness and firepower of a Riptide can"
That's fine. Just pay for it.
Which I agree needs to be addressed. Never said it didn't
Well, if you want the Riptide to have AV13/12/12 or basically have AV13 on the front your going to be looking at paying around 350-400pts. Not because of the armor but because you want this thing to be the fastest walker in the game, the shootiest walker in the game (Besides TITANS) and you want it to have the thickest armor in the game.
SemperMortis wrote: Not because of the armor but because you want this thing to be the fastest walker in the game, the shootiest walker in the game (Besides TITANS) and you want it to have the thickest armor in the game.
I like how you're making this pointlessly personal; I think it should be that way because that's how it's been depicted in the lore. 13/11/11 or 13/12/10, something in that ball park sounds about right. Does it have to have the most firepower? No, not really, just a good amount of it - I'd expect a Morkanaut to outclass it in firepower perhaps, although I am unsure of its game stats.
Also I would notion that the Dreadknight is probably faster due to its teleporter, and possibly should hit harder, but whatever.
I've said it befoe, and I'll say it again: Riptides should not be Walkers. If you make Riptides into Walkers, you have to make Storm Surges & Ghost Keels Walkers. Good idea, you say? Well it cannot stop there. For consistency you now have to make Broadsides, Crisis Suits & Stealth suits into Walkers. And that is just ridiculus The Riptide needs to either have a 3+ armour (like a Crisis suit) or have its Jet-pack removed (like a Broadside). Then lower the invul Nova charge to only a 4++ and bump it to an even 200pts before upgrades and you have a solid unit that pays for what it is.
Galef wrote: If you make Riptides into Walkers, you have to make Storm Surges & Ghost Keels Walkers.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Good idea, you say? Well it cannot stop there. For consistency you now have to make Broadsides, Crisis Suits & Stealth suits into Walkers. And that is just ridiculus
It is ridiculous because Broadsides, Crisis Suits and Stealth suits are nowhere near the size needed to be classed as any kind of Walker - the Broadside doesn't even reach the height of a Scout Sentinel. We should start classing Centurions as Walkers too because they're bipedal. And Meganobz
The Riptide needs to either have a 3+ armour (like a Crisis suit) or have its Jet-pack removed (like a Broadside). Then lower the invul Nova charge to only a 4++ and bump it to an even 200pts before upgrades and you have a solid unit that pays for what it is.
In other words, remove everything that makes a Riptide a Riptide, like the armour and the jetpack. I seem to feel like this discussion is doing a 360 cycle.
Although I would say a nerf to the Shield Generator is reasonable.
SemperMortis wrote: Not because of the armor but because you want this thing to be the fastest walker in the game, the shootiest walker in the game (Besides TITANS) and you want it to have the thickest armor in the game.
I like how you're making this pointlessly personal; I think it should be that way because that's how it's been depicted in the lore. 13/11/11 or 13/12/10, something in that ball park sounds about right. Does it have to have the most firepower? No, not really, just a good amount of it - I'd expect a Morkanaut to outclass it in firepower perhaps, although I am unsure of its game stats.
Also I would notion that the Dreadknight is probably faster due to its teleporter, and possibly should hit harder, but whatever.
And as depicted in the lore, Vanquishers blow holes out of GMCs and headshot Titans...
Yet they can't even really touch MCs, much less GMCs and vehicles/superheavies.
And as depicted in the lore, Vanquishers blow holes out of GMCs and headshot Titans...
Yet they can't even really touch MCs, much less GMCs and vehicles/superheavies.
Hence why the Riptide should be a Walker. Not much else I can add to that.
And Vanquishers still wouldn't be able to touch it.
Vanquishers are S8 AP2 with Armourbane. Sure, you have a great chance of penetrating vehicles and if you hit something you're going to get a wound, probably...unless the thing has an Invulnerable save or Cover or multiple Wounds and FNP with a high T.
This is the point that people have tried to get across, multiple times, in threads regarding the Riptide. It has a high Offensive capability, a high Defensive capability, and the ability to synergize even more for its Offensive capability in an army where the synergy is already a problematic part of why players dislike playing against it.
Simply making it so that Tau direct LOS/ blast weapons cannot benefit from Scour if the target actually is within cover of a certain value(Ruins, buildings, etc) would go a long way towards making people hate the Tau less.
And Vanquishers still wouldn't be able to touch it.
Vanquishers are S8 AP2 with Armourbane. Sure, you have a great chance of penetrating vehicles and if you hit something you're going to get a wound, probably...unless the thing has an Invulnerable save or Cover or multiple Wounds and FNP with a high T.
To that I say, invuln saves via shields are meant to stop a tank hunter like a Vanquisher from destroying the target - no amount of armour should be safe from one of those things.
As for FNP, isn't the Stimulant Injector an optional upgrade for the Riptide? It would also be something I'd remove from the Riptide if it were to become a Walker - 40k isn't complex enough to want to cover things like vehicle crews outside of Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned, but I reckon it isn't needed or friendly for vehicles to take.
Usually I'd say the Vanquisher would penetrate armour rather than glance, so you have a good chance of doing serious damage to the Riptide rather than just taking a Hull Point off it.
The Riptide needs to either have a 3+ armour (like a Crisis suit) or have its Jet-pack removed (like a Broadside). Then lower the invul Nova charge to only a 4++ and bump it to an even 200pts before upgrades and you have a solid unit that pays for what it is.
In other words, remove everything that makes a Riptide a Riptide, like the armour and the jetpack. I seem to feel like this discussion is doing a 360 cycle..
I didn't say the armour AND the Jet-pack, I said the armour OR the jetpack. If you look at all the other suits, they all have 3+ armour, except the Broadside, which does not have a Jet-pack. What makes a Riptide a Riptide is that it is an MC Crisis suit, just like a Ghost keel is an MC Stealth suit, and a Storm Surge is a GMC Broadside.
All the Riptide needs to "stand out" as an MC version of a Crisis suit is: increased Toughness & wounds, check, Access to heavier weapons, check, 1 fun special rule (Nova Charge), check. It does NOT have to have a 2+ armour or access to a 3++ to be a Riptide.
I can only see the Storm Surge being a Walker since it has 2 pilots and probably uses a form of AI to help. Being controlled from multiple sources like this is what causes effects like "Crew Stunned", etc. Having 1 source (the pilot) and a sophisticated processing system (unlike Ork or Imperial Tech) is what gives a Riptide & Ghost keel the ability to function like MCs rather than Walkers. Even the Grey Knight Dread Knight uses advanced tech that has been lost to the rest of the Imperium.
Basically that is the main difference between a Walker and a techno MC. Walkers use less sophisticated tech. I would rather MCs (and GMCs) had damage charts then making these MCs into Walkers.
I didn't say the armour AND the Jet-pack, I said the armour OR the jetpack.
My mistake - I misread your post. Either way, both are defining qualities of the XV104 and what it needs to be effective.
If you look at all the other suits, they all have 3+ armour, except the Broadside, which does not have a Jet-pack.
The other suits don't use the same Nanocrystalline alloy as the Riptide, which has been created exclusively for it. The Broadside sacrifices mobility for the extra armour; the Riptide is a much later Tau invention that uses more perfected materials and designs.
All the Riptide needs to "stand out" as an MC version of a Crisis suit is: increased Toughness & wounds, check, Access to heavier weapons, check, 1 fun special rule (Nova Charge), check. It does NOT have to have a 2+ armour or access to a 3++ to be a Riptide.
See above for why it has a 2+ armour save. However, I would say a 3++ save is excessive with that in mind - the Riptide's Shield is more of an afterthought design wise, in case a Tank Hunter manages to get the Riptide in its sights.
I can only see the Storm Surge being a Walker since it has 2 pilots and probably uses a form of AI to help. Being controlled from multiple sources like this is what causes effects like "Crew Stunned", etc. Having 1 source (the pilot) and a sophisticated processing system (unlike Ork or Imperial Tech) is what gives a Riptide & Ghost keel the ability to function like MCs rather than Walkers. Even the Grey Knight Dread Knight uses advanced tech that has been lost to the rest of the Imperium.
Basically that is the main difference between a Walker and a techno MC. Walkers use less sophisticated tech. I would rather MCs (and GMCs) had damage charts then making these MCs into Walkers.
Regardless of how many pilots a vehicle has, they can still be stunned by a penetrating shot. A Monstrous Creature is (or should be, at least) a representation of a hulking organic tank, not something Walker sized like a Riptide.
The Stormsurge should absolutely be a Walker as it is classed as a Ballistic Suit by the Tau - a Walking Tank. Just because it has a Shas'rve and a Ves'oni'Vash (a Ballistic Suit graduate) rather than a Shas'ui (or Shas'rve in terms of the Riptide and Ghostkeel) doesn't mean it has less sophisticated technology, or that the pilot of the Riptide and Ghostkeel suits are immune to being shaken or stunned in combat.
I do like that idea of a damage chart for Monstrous Creatures, how that would translate to Monstrous Creatures like Carnifexes is another question.
40k is a mess as a ruleset, honestly, and I won't claim to have the right answer to this problem. I'm here mainly to point out the purpose of the Riptide in the lore for more qualified people to translate.
And fluff can be changed, In fact it often is changed between editions. The Nanocrystalline alloy could easily be made to be how the Riptide is able to use its Nova reactor.
When the Riptide first came out, most agreed that it was a big Crisis suit, now that the Ghost Keel & Storm Surge exist, this is even more confirmed, thus it should function just like a big Crisis suit.
Honestly, 40K needs a new unit type that is between Walker & MC. Then Tau MCs & DKs can be that unit type. If the rules are done right for this unit type, you can make all Tau suits into that type, maybe even certain Necron units. Leave the MC type to Nids & Chaos, leave the Walker type to Imperials & Orks
I would not be surpirsed
Everyone thought Codex Eldar: Wave Serpent was gonna get toned down, then GW released Codex Eldar: Scatterbike & WK
Is the Grav rule laid out in the Marine codex? I know it is in the BRB, but if it isn't also in the Marine codex, that cold very well be a change to 8th ed that would make the Riptide better
Fluff should always be taken with a pinch (sometimes a mountain) of salt when it comes to translation into game rules. Personally, I've always considered 40k fluff to be propaganda at best. In the fluff, to a certan degree, everything is always the coolest and most powerful evar.
As I see it, a Riptide should be a reasonably tough and versatile linebreaker vehicle. By "reasonably tough" I mean something like a 12/12/12 walker vehicle with a 5++ save (upped to a 4++ via nova charge). And nothing more. The Decimator I'm assembling and painting at the moment is 13/12/11 with a 5++ (which can't be upgraded) but that one is expected to be a heavy siege/assault half-demon murder machine. And it costs 205 freaking points without any upgrades or shooty weapons (beyond the heavy flamers). Ah the joys of IA13, that book that according to some people turns CSM into a "competitive army" (competitive against what?).
Yes, I acknowledge the Riptide is not the only thing currently undercosted and probably overpowered in the game right now. Perhaps it's not even the worst offender (hello whole Eldar codex). Many, many things would need to be toned down and changed for the game to merely approach a state of "balance". So please people stop with the usual but but but my army needs its X to deal with Y. I don't care if your spessss mehreeens need grav to deal with Riptides, first because my CSM don't have access to grav and I have to face Riptides all the same, second because grav (as it's been implemented in 40k) is another aberration that needs to go.
I don't know what this means, but I assume it means fluff is not equivalent to the game rules.
Well, yeah
You've seen the Movie Marines, right? Because that's what Space Marines are according to the fluff.
Not always - you just always hear the stories of a single Space Marine stopping a planetary invasion more than the ones where entire Companies are wiped out in one fell swoop.
I find the term "Movie Marines" and the rules that have been created for them to be excessive - they are understated in the current version of 40k by a long margin, yes, but they don't always end up as godlike killing machines.
Galef wrote:And fluff can be changed, In fact it often is changed between editions. The Nanocrystalline alloy could easily be made to be how the Riptide is able to use its Nova reactor.
When the Riptide first came out, most agreed that it was a big Crisis suit, now that the Ghost Keel & Storm Surge exist, this is even more confirmed, thus it should function just like a big Crisis suit.
The Riptide is essentially a big Crisis Suit - it has been designed to fill in the two flaws that XV8s have - lack of heavy weaponry, and lack of resistance to small arms fire.
Fluff does change, yes. How that affects the Riptide at this current time, I'm unsure.
Honestly, 40K needs a new unit type that is between Walker & MC. Then Tau MCs & DKs can be that unit type. If the rules are done right for this unit type, you can make all Tau suits into that type, maybe even certain Necron units. Leave the MC type to Nids & Chaos, leave the Walker type to Imperials & Orks
I think it's best to leave any Tau Suit that isn't larger than Mass Class 8 as Infantry. However, I'd like your idea to be brought to the Hazard and Riptide Suits, which are Class 9 and Class 10 respectively. Past that onto the Ballistic Suits, I'd make them Walkers.
Korinov wrote:Fluff should always be taken with a pinch (sometimes a mountain) of salt when it comes to translation into game rules. Personally, I've always considered 40k fluff to be propaganda at best. In the fluff, to a certan degree, everything is always the coolest and most powerful evar.
I agreed a few posts back that the 40k game is a pretty poor reflection of what is written in the lore. Whether 40k fluff is propaganda or not is another debate for another time; personally I think it takes a consistent unbiased view on the universe, despite the reader only being able to understand a lot of the lore through what humanity knows, with things like the exact composition of Tau Composite being a mystery to both the Imperium and the reader. However, such insights are minimal, and probably are an excuse for writers to not have to explain their creations past "Space Science. Deal with it". Hop over to any Xenos or Chaos Codex and you uncover a bunch of information that the Imperium or even other factions can't know.
Oh the dramatic irony when you read into every faction's lore...
As I see it, a Riptide should be a reasonably tough and versatile linebreaker vehicle. By "reasonably tough" I mean something like a 12/12/12 walker vehicle with a 5++ save (upped to a 4++ via nova charge). And nothing more. The Decimator I'm assembling and painting at the moment is 13/12/11 with a 5++ (which can't be upgraded) but that one is expected to be a heavy siege/assault half-demon murder machine. And it costs 205 freaking points without any upgrades or shooty weapons (beyond the heavy flamers). Ah the joys of IA13, that book that according to some people turns CSM into a "competitive army" (competitive against what?).
The problem I see with the Riptide is that so many of its wargear upgrades are an insta-take for any competitive player with a brain. Why wouldn't you take a Ion Accelerator for 5 points?; why wouldn't you take a Stimulant Injector? etc. Addressing those would also help the Riptide be a lot more palatable.
Yes, I acknowledge the Riptide is not the only thing currently undercosted and probably overpowered in the game right now. Perhaps it's not even the worst offender (hello whole Eldar codex). Many, many things would need to be toned down and changed for the game to merely approach a state of "balance". So please people stop with the usual but but but my army needs its X to deal with Y. I don't care if your spessss mehreeens need grav to deal with Riptides, first because my CSM don't have access to grav and I have to face Riptides all the same
We didn't just make a CSM/SM comparison, did we?
Should put a trigger warning on your post
In all seriousness, that statement's a little ironic. You're saying SM shouldn't have Grav because you as a CSM player don't have access to Grav. Should I be asking for Lance Weapons as an Imperial Guard player now?
second because grav (as it's been implemented in 40k) is another aberration that needs to go.
Yeah, I'd say so. Nice idea, but I don't think anyone was prepared for how insanely good it can be. I would like to see it stay, of course, but it does need to be addressed.
In all seriousness, that statement's a little ironic. You're saying SM shouldn't have Grav because you as a CSM player don't have access to Grav. Should I be asking for Lance Weapons as an Imperial Guard player now?
second because grav (as it's been implemented in 40k) is another aberration that needs to go.
Yeah, I'd say so. Nice idea, but I don't think anyone was prepared for how insanely good it can be. I would like to see it stay, of course, but it does need to be addressed.
Keeping in mind that as I say this, I have never played in the HH 30k setting. I would have no issue with CSM getting a reprint of a 30k codex for use in the 40k universe. For that matter, I have a massive problem with the fact that CSM don't have access to all the retconned new(original) toys that are available to the newer SM codecii. While Obliterators can be retconned as corrupted Centurions, there are no clear corollaries for Land Speeders, many if any of the flyers, or even Drop Pods without dipping into FW.
carldooley wrote: I would have no issue with CSM getting a reprint of a 30k codex for use in the 40k universe
I would; 30K Traitor Space Marines are not 40K Chaos Space Marines by any stretch of the imagination.
For that matter, I have a massive problem with the fact that CSM don't have access to all the retconned new(original) toys that are available to the newer SM codecii. While Obliterators can be retconned as corrupted Centurions, there are no clear corollaries for Land Speeders, many if any of the flyers, or even Drop Pods without dipping into FW.
This is because most CSM either couldn't maintain the technology even with the help of the Dark Mechanicum, or because they threw it out because it doesn't suit their methods of warfare. The idea of Land Speeders, Land Speeder Storms and Scouts, to take a few examples, don't feel very Chaosy both in terms of tactics and aesthetics.
The Legions do hold onto some old tech they had back in the 31st millennium. However, most of this is twisted beyond recognition to its old counterpart thanks to the tides of the warp. The stuff that is well maintained and used also represents a niche of Chaos Space Marines who still have a sense of deep strategy and planning, and who aren't bloodthirsty slaves to the Dark Gods by now.
The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
Especially for more recent "renegades", who wouldn't even have anything like the combi bolters and reaper autocannons and havoc launchers of the original traitor Legions.
Besides, it's not like the Dark Mechanicus is restricted by the same dogma as the Adeptus Mechanicus, they're free to run wild and invent all sorts of crazy new stuff.
Vaktathi wrote: The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
A Land Speeder is an anti grav vehicle - something that would require careful attention and the correct parts to keep running.
Daemon Engines are manifestations of the warp - I think they can be counted out of your argument here for obvious reasons.
Terminator Armour is an item that would bind to the flesh of the wearer over time as Warp exposure increases, with mutations filling in the gaps where the armour gets damaged.
Especially for more recent "renegades", who wouldn't even have anything like the combi bolters and reaper autocannons and havoc launchers of the original traitor Legions.
Besides, it's not like the Dark Mechanicus is restricted by the same dogma as the Adeptus Mechanicus, they're free to run wild and invent all sorts of crazy new stuff.
I did not say that these vehicles and weapons do not exist in CSM armouries. However, they are so few and far between that inclusion into the regular CSM codex doesn't seem practical.
All the 30K FW stuff can be run in 40K anyway by SM and CSM, usually as Lords of War to represent their rarity.
I'll also add that Renegade Chapters can for the most part be considered to function as normal Space Marines for the first few decades of their turn to Chaos, for whatever reason that may be. As time wears on, however, equipment will be lost and damaged beyond any easy fix, even in the hands of the Dark Mechanicum; from that point, high maintinence vehicles will either have to be improvised on beyond their original design, or ditched in favour of STC designs that parts can easily be sourced for.
Vaktathi wrote: The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
A Land Speeder is an anti grav vehicle - something that would require careful attention and the correct parts to keep running.
And flyer drop pods, gunships, power weapons, plasma guns, starships, power armor, ancient relic battle tanks, etc don't? It would seem everything involving Space Marines of any kind requires insane amounts of careful maintenance and attention given the blistering array of complex systems they all operate.
Daemon Engines are manifestations of the warp - I think they can be counted out of your argument here for obvious reasons.
Many are forged in the real world and subsequently forcibly possessed, not spawned directly from the warp. The Defiler is one such daemon engine.
Terminator Armour is an item that would bind to the flesh of the wearer over time as Warp exposure increases, with mutations filling in the gaps where the armour gets damaged.
Only in some cases, Terminator armor is a hot commodity amongst the up and coming Champions, it can absolutely be taken off and require repairs and the like.
I did not say that these vehicles and weapons do not exist in CSM armouries. However, they are so few and far between that inclusion into the regular CSM codex doesn't seem practical.
Eh, maybe, though it wouldn't seem any less so for the CSM's than for loyalists really.
I'll also add that Renegade Chapters can for the most part be considered to function as normal Space Marines for the first few decades of their turn to Chaos, for whatever reason that may be. As time wears on, however, equipment will be lost and damaged beyond any easy fix, even in the hands of the Dark Mechanicum; from that point, high maintinence vehicles will either have to be improvised on beyond their original design, or ditched in favour of STC designs that parts can easily be sourced for.
Sure, but when they show up with equipment they never had and that bears no resemblance to anything they'd even have around to scrounge (e.g. Reaper Autocannons, Defilers, etc), it gets kinda weird
Vaktathi wrote: The idea that they couldn't maintain things like Land Speeders is somewhat silly. If they can manage Daemon engines, Terminator armor, Sicarans, Fire Raptors, etc, surely a Land Speeder or Assault Cannon is not beyond them.
Especially for more recent "renegades", who wouldn't even have anything like the combi bolters and reaper autocannons and havoc launchers of the original traitor Legions.
Besides, it's not like the Dark Mechanicus is restricted by the same dogma as the Adeptus Mechanicus, they're free to run wild and invent all sorts of crazy new stuff.
My take on that is the traitors have either lost interest (Land Speeders) or lack infrastructure (Assault Cannon). Plasmaguns, Autocannons, Heavy Bolters, those are all far more common within the Imperium, and easier to pirate/steal and get ammunition for. Assault Cannons are rarer, and thus just isn't as useful for forces that are on a constant rampage without a supply chain. Better to rely on guns that you can always shoot.
Land Speeders are more of a support vehicle, and the renegades are just less interested in support, and more into individual killing and bloodshed. Again, also might be logistically difficult to maintain for lack of replacement parts. It's less that they don't have the tech, and more that they operate without robust supply chains. Constantly on the move, improvising, stealing and raiding.
SemperMortis wrote: Not because of the armor but because you want this thing to be the fastest walker in the game, the shootiest walker in the game (Besides TITANS) and you want it to have the thickest armor in the game.
I like how you're making this pointlessly personal; I think it should be that way because that's how it's been depicted in the lore. 13/11/11 or 13/12/10, something in that ball park sounds about right. Does it have to have the most firepower? No, not really, just a good amount of it - I'd expect a Morkanaut to outclass it in firepower perhaps, although I am unsure of its game stats.
Also I would notion that the Dreadknight is probably faster due to its teleporter, and possibly should hit harder, but whatever.
I know this is going to blow your mind so standby. I am not taking this personal in the slightest. I am merely pointing out that you are flip flopping frequently in this thread about Fluff and how it is involved in the actual game play.
Fluff doesn't come into play in regards to actual game play. Fluff is for Black library to have fun with and write some epic books for us to read....that is it. Yes you have agreed with me already that the riptide should face a significant increase in price. But from other comments you have made you want it almost as well armored as a Morkanaught which has significantly less Dakka and mobility then the Riptide. Again that is absolutely fine. But if your going to try and price this thing correctly then it should be around 350-400pts. And I know for a fact that nobody would take a riptide as a Walker vehicle for 350-400pts. As it stands in the game the riptide ISNT a jack of all trades, its a master of all trades and for that moniker it should have to pay a significant price.
Eldar have their ridiculous Wraith Knights which are in the same category as Riptides (that being stupid) and they are HORRIBLY priced. So anyway, if you want to keep using fluff to justify in game things then that's fine, but remember, this game will continue to be horribly imbalanced if the people who set the prices for those units are fanboys who think Wraithknights should be <300 and Riptides are perfectly fine at 180pts.
I am not taking this personal in the slightest. I am merely pointing out that you are flip flopping frequently in this thread about Fluff and how it is involved in the actual game play.
Flip flopping between what exactly?
As I have previously said:
General Annoyance wrote: However, appreciating that the TT game of 40k is often very inaccurate regarding the power of units in the lore, I would accept that a compromise would perhaps be necessary for the Riptide to continue to see the tabletop. Would still be unhappy, but accepting for the sake of a prospect of fair and fun play.
and
General Annoyance wrote: 40k is a mess as a ruleset, honestly, and I won't claim to have the right answer to this problem. I'm here mainly to point out the purpose of the Riptide in the lore for more qualified people to translate.
Considering this thread should be about the role of the Riptide in the 40k Universe, and how that might tie into the game, I think I've been pretty consistent.
Fluff is for Black library to have fun with and write some epic books for us to read....that is it.
So in your eyes, 40k background should in no way tie into the game that uses units from that background.
If you have such little regard for the lore of 40k, I have to ask - why are you bothering with a broken and unbalanced mess of a ruleset?
Yes you have agreed with me already that the riptide should face a significant increase in price. But from other comments you have made you want it almost as well armuored as a Morkanaut which has significantly less Dakka and mobility then the Riptide. Again that is absolutely fine.
I don't think it's fine - a Morkanaut lacking firepower anywhere near to a Riptide troubles me.
However, mobility is a less justified argument, as A. it is of Ork design, and B. it is also a transport, something that the Riptide is not.
So anyway, if you want to keep using fluff to justify in game things then that's fine, but remember, this game will continue to be horribly imbalanced if the people who set the prices for those units are fanboys who think Wraithknights should be <300 and Riptides are perfectly fine at 180pts.
We should be at least trying to justify the game lore wise, since that's what it's based on.
If I had a pound for everytime "fanboy" was used in an argument as well...
I think those people need to get their glasses on straight. Wraithknights and Riptides are powerful - deal with it. However, their pricing is not accurate for the sense of a fair or fun game. Whether that bump up to 350+ points will mean people won't take it is another question that I can't answer.
Again, I don't feel qualified to comment on the rules as a whole anymore while speaking for everyone else. Lore however, is less easy to argue over or dispute.
As a Tau player some of the suggested "balance" changes in this thread make me curl up and die inside a little. Personally I play in a less competitive, non-tournament. I've found that even one riptide can be overbearing against some people. It's significantly undercosted and needs to be balanced. I stress balanced, not completely kneecapped and left to die alone in a ditch on the side of a road like some of the suggestions on here.
The riptide holds a unique strategic niche in the Tau codex of being an aggressive midfield "tank"/fire magnet. It's job is to aggressively posture, do noticeable damage in the first turn while loudly screaming "I'M A BIG SCARY MONSTEROUS CREATURE. SHOOT ME!! SHOOOOOOT ME!" Meanwhile the rest of your army runs around winning you the game while it gets shot instead of them. So to surmmerize, it needs to do enough damage your opponent will shoot at it and it needs to not die immediately to said shooting.
A 12/12/12 walker is not this. A 12/12/12 walker dies horribly to a handful lascannons. God forbid it sees anything remotely resembling dedicated firepower like a squad of melta-guns or grav cannons. A 12/12/12 walker is significantly less survivable than my 12/11/10 95 point devilfish with a disruption pod. Do any of you seriously rely on having your dreadnoughts being the primary fire magnet for your army? No, no you don't. You drop pod them directly into enemy lines with heavy back-up and that usually isn't enough to keep them safe.
A riptide as 12/12/12 walker with an exactly the same everything else the same is way worse. It would likely see very little play outside of the most casual of lists. For 60 points less you could just get a hammerhead with Ion Cannon, which has basically the exact same offensive power (except its AP 3 instead of 2). It's also more durable at 13/12/10 with a jink save. The only downsides being it's slightly less maneuverable, having to not shoot if it wants to go 12"+flat out as opposed to having a natural 2d6 assault and requiring greatly reduced firepower for the jink save (but that can be greatly mitigated with cover).
So to summarize, making a riptide a vehicle completely neuters what I perceive to be its niche in the tau codex. That being said riptides are way too good at what they do. So how do we balance them.
Step 1) Competely erase the riptide wing from existance. First and foremost they're aggressively unfluffy. Riptides are immensely rare. A wing would basically only be assembled when assaulting a captain city not these skirmishes we have. Secondly for a riptide to be balanced it needs strengths and weaknesses. One weakness is riptides should inherently be a support unit. By which I mean it's a tank/fire magnet not a DPS model. It needs to do enough damage to be threatening, but it should be doing less damage than a similar amount points of crisis suits or broadsides. An army of only riptides shouldn't be able to table anything. Yet with the sweet sweet power of a handful of marker drones and an extra wave of shooting they can. This is unacceptable. Another weakness is that nova charging is inherintly risky and thus effectively makes a riptide a 3.5W not 5W model. But with this formation all the risk associated with nova charging them is gone, being a massive survivability buff to an already strong model.
Step 2) Disallow the buying of FNP. The model should be hard to kill not borderline impossible. This also increases the risk of nova charging to be an actual risk, not something you should mathematically do every turn.
Step 3) Remove the overheated profile (but not the nova charge) of the Ion Accelerator. Seriously the 3 shot Str7 Ap2 shot profile gets used basically never. If you want that sweet sweet AP2 pie plate you'll have to nova charge for it. Also, you forfeit your movement to shoot it, cause it's ordinance. Since your not nova charging your 3++ your survivabilty drops a ton. This also greatly reduces the power of its interceptor as if you haven't gotten first turn you won't be able to pie plate drop-pods.
Note: Heavy Burst Cannon is fine outside of the riptide wing. 8 shots -> 4 hits -> roughly 1-2 dead marines. Want to threaten actual damage? Gotta nova charge and risk a wound, and again you're much more vulnerable to AP2 damage.
Step 4) Increase points cost as necessary (20-40?). It'll still probably be undercosted still but not hilariously so. It now has clear weaknesses in significantly reduced firepower unless it's nova charging for it. But if it's nova charging for firepower it's not nova charging the 3++ it'll only have a 5++ and no FNP it'll die to an average of 6 Lascannon/Melta/Grav wounds (since nova charging will likely do a wound). Roughly as hard to kill as a landraider. More easily hurt by lascannons but more consistent in that it won't randomly die to a single melta shot.
Side note: As for the walker vs MC debate I always viewed it as dreadnoughts were more like AT-ST or AT-ATs. Big dumb and clumsy while Tau riptides functioned more like gundams in their ability to move around since they're basically extra large crisis suits. I can see why others would disagree though.
Not to mention the whole vibe of "I don't have to endure the same hardships as you do with your dreadnoughts and other walkers, you peasants".
The agility argument can be easily countered by making a Riptide walker more agile and mobile than other walkers with just a few touches here and there. First and foremost, I suggested 12/12/12 precisely to highlight that... in theory it should be 12/12/11 at best, but let's give it 12 for the back armour too to represent how agile it is at reacting to unavoidable enemy shots by facing them with its most resistent parts. Then GW hires a game designer with an actually functional brain and as a result the Movement stat is brought back, and while normal walkers move 6'', the Riptide moves 8'', or 9'', or whatever, to highlight how fast it is.
I still believe every piloted vehicle in the game should be a walker vehicle, and all the arguments about how agile and fast some of these things are can be easily integrated into a walker vehicle profile with the proper stat changes and special rules. In the end it's just a matter of people wanting shinier and better toys than the rest. If next edition brutally nerfs monstruous creatures (i.e. "each wound you suffer reduces your WS, BS and I in one point, as soon as you lose half your wounds you lose half your attacks", etc) and overpowers walker vehicles, we'll soon have a pletora of Tau & Eldar players loudly arguing why their Riptides, Wraithknights and other stuff should have always been walkers.
In the current state of the game, the riptide is completely fine! It is durable and fulfills the linebreaker role well, but its damage output is not that great (without marker lights, it's actually quite bad). It is easily killed by grav and any decent CC unit. Interceptor does not save you from strong alpha strikes (unless your opponent puts his guys outside of cover in a nice tight bunch and you don't scatter - do the math).
The real problem is the riptide wing, which smooths out all the weaknesses (BS3, unreliable nova charge, mediocre damage output) without adding any penalties. Yes, the riptide wing is utter cheese and should be reserved for competitive tournaments only, but in normal games against newer codices riptides are completely fine.
edit:/ People also often overlook the greatest weakness of Tau: Psychic powers. Last week I played in a tournament and my opponent put Terrify and Dominate on my 3 riptide unit, meaning I had to take a ton of LD checks on 8. I eventually failed one and couldn't shoot with a third of my army, losing me the game.
Korinov wrote: The agility argument can be easily countered by making a Riptide walker more agile and mobile than other walkers with just a few touches here and there. First and foremost, I suggested 12/12/12 precisely to highlight that... in theory it should be 12/12/11 at best, but let's give it 12 for the back armour too to represent how agile it is at reacting to unavoidable enemy shots by facing them with its most resistent parts. Then GW hires a game designer with an actually functional brain and as a result the Movement stat is brought back, and while normal walkers move 6'', the Riptide moves 8'', or 9'', or whatever, to highlight how fast it is.
so we are supposed to wait around for gw to implement a new stat , across the entire 40k universe , in the middle of a edition , to make your suggestion work ?
Korinov wrote: I still believe every piloted vehicle in the game should be a walker vehicle, and all the arguments about how agile and fast some of these things are can be easily integrated into a walker vehicle profile with the proper stat changes and special rules. In the end it's just a matter of people wanting shinier and better toys than the rest. If next edition brutally nerfs monstruous creatures (i.e. "each wound you suffer reduces your WS, BS and I in one point, as soon as you lose half your wounds you lose half your attacks", etc) and overpowers walker vehicles, we'll soon have a pletora of Tau & Eldar players loudly arguing why their Riptides, Wraithknights and other stuff should have always been walkers.
How do you interpet the word "Pilot" ? Do you use the same definition for the "pilot" operating controls , levers/knobs/joystick ect , as to one that is controlling one through a neural link so they just have to react like it is their own body ? How about the dreadknight , where the "Pilot" is just a space marine strapped into a harness and the construct mimics every action of the marine as if it was his own body so he's not truly "controlling" the construct.
Its not actually a easy question to answer because of the sci-fi + fiction going on here and we don't have a reference in real life , we would like to think we do , but we really don't.
Do we need to make all necrons walkers now ? They are all constructs too.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
In the current state of the game, the riptide is completely fine! It is durable and fulfills the linebreaker role well, but its damage output is not that great (without marker lights, it's actually quite bad). It is easily killed by grav and any decent CC unit. Interceptor does not save you from strong alpha strikes (unless your opponent puts his guys outside of cover in a nice tight bunch and you don't scatter - do the math).
The real problem is the riptide wing, which smooths out all the weaknesses (BS3, unreliable nova charge, mediocre damage output) without adding any penalties. Yes, the riptide wing is utter cheese and should be reserved for competitive tournaments only, but in normal games against newer codices riptides are completely fine.
Korinov wrote: Not to mention the whole vibe of "I don't have to endure the same hardships as you do with your dreadnoughts and other walkers, you peasants".
That's not what I'm trying to say at all. What I'm saying is that dreadnoughts are not linebreakers. That is not their purpose or niche in your codex. You don't buy drop pods for linebreakers, you walk linebreakers through hails of enemy fire and expect them to live. Your linebreaker is a landraider. Yes landraiders are comparatively overcosted and have all around inferior rules to riptides in almost every way, stay with me it's the closest comparison your codex has that I know of.
The entire point of a landraider is to safely transport troops across the midfield into enemy backlines. Theoretically if I thought the landraider was too overpowered (I don't), I wouldn't balance it by turning it into a 12/12/12 vehicle. That would completely destroy the entire point of the models existance. Similarly a riptides entire point of existance is to safely take fire for other tau units. You competely destroy the entire point of its existance by turning it into a 12/12/12. To balance it out you make it's weaknesses more exploitable you don't just utterly hamstring its strengths.
Assume a landraider was say 100 points. How do we balance that without just changing it to 13/11/10 like other imperial tanks of that point cost? Maybe it can only go 6" no flat out so your paying a primium for your survivabilty with almost no mobility. Maybe you heavily reduce the potential occupants of the vehicle. If it can only carry TAC squads and scouts it wouldn't be nearly so good. Maybe you chop off the vast majority of its guns. Maybe you drop only the rear armor to 10, so it is much weaker to deepstrikers and assault units while still being able to shrug off lots of fire. What you don't do is drop it to 12/12/12 because you're annoyed by how hard it is to kill, so now it dies to everything and there's no reason to ever even consider taking it over a rhino or razorback.
This is what I was aiming for with my recommendations. I tried to bring its durability down to the ball park of a landraider. Obviously it'll be more durable with its 3++ up. But if it's doing that its shooting power drops to lower than a landraider and it lacks the ability to transport deadly assault contents. The riptide is more consistently tanky against melta-guns, but more vulnerable to grav and lascannons. It's significantly more vulnerable to <7 Str weapons (unlike a landraider that is just immune to them), but those weapons are extremely ineffective.
The agility argument can be easily countered by making a Riptide walker more agile and mobile than other walkers with just a few touches here and there.
. I don't see the difference between a riptide and walkers being how fast they get from point A to point B. In my opinion a riptide has much more fine motor skills, more flexibility, more dexterity not necessarily more speed. I can plausible picture a riptide doing a front flip (or at least a better one than I can personally). A wraithnight could probably also do a front flip/somersault. An imperial walker cannot do a front flip. This is also the difference between random wraith constructs and eldar war walkers. A riptide moves like a very large person not like a tank that happens to have legs instead of wheels. By this definition a storm surge should probably be a walker. But again this is all very speculative personal opinion and probably comes with a fair bit of tau bias so I can respect the walker argument.
If next edition brutally nerfs monstruous creatures (i.e. "each wound you suffer reduces your WS, BS and I in one point, as soon as you lose half your wounds you lose half your attacks", etc) and overpowers walker vehicles, we'll soon have a pletora of Tau & Eldar players loudly arguing why their Riptides, Wraithknights and other stuff should have always been walkers.
This amuses me because it's a much better balance change than your 12/12/12 vehicle recommendation and you suggested it sarcastically as a terrible over-nerf. Riptides are already extremely markerlight dependent, making them more so as they get injured is lowering their offensive capabilities while maintaining what makes them unique (their defensive stats). The drop in WS, I, and attacks also makes them much more vulnerable to losing in CC and getting swept by random units. This also keeps their unique niche (surviving lots of bullets) while giving them interesting counter play (weakening them slightly and then abusing their terrible leadership with an assault).
Martel732 wrote: I'll buy the clumsy argument, but not the disparity in durability.
It's a massive robot who's entire reason for existance is to be shot at by every gun (from small arms to anti -tank) that can see it and still not die? It has literally the best armor and defensive systems that the highly advanced tau can produce. Kinda like how a landraider is extremely hard to kill outside of extremely niche, highly specialized weapons (melta-guns). Admittedly it's too hard to kill right now with stims and permanent 3++ in a riptide wing as it shrugs off even weapons dedicated to killing it. With only a 5++ and no stims they're not that exceptionally hard to put down. I mean they're still hard to put down, but they're a far cry from immortal.
In the current state of the game, the riptide is completely fine! It is durable and fulfills the linebreaker role well, but its damage output is not that great (without marker lights, it's actually quite bad). It is easily killed by grav and any decent CC unit. Interceptor does not save you from strong alpha strikes (unless your opponent puts his guys outside of cover in a nice tight bunch and you don't scatter - do the math).
The real problem is the riptide wing, which smooths out all the weaknesses (BS3, unreliable nova charge, mediocre damage output) without adding any penalties. Yes, the riptide wing is utter cheese and should be reserved for competitive tournaments only, but in normal games against newer codices riptides are completely fine.
edit:/ People also often overlook the greatest weakness of Tau: Psychic powers. Last week I played in a tournament and my opponent put Terrify and Dominate on my 3 riptide unit, meaning I had to take a ton of LD checks on 8. I eventually failed one and couldn't shoot with a third of my army, losing me the game.
nope.
For my orks a "Decent CC unit" is our regular Boys squad, who probably are better then a lot of dedicated CC units. But lets get into this. Lets assume that the Riptide Bought the upgrades to give itself FNP and no other upgrades whatsoever. Lets assume that my Ork boyz took a pair of trukkz to get into CC with this beast because realistically that is the only way orks can close with Tau, Spam vehicles and hope you don't get any unlucky rolls. So 60pts for the two trukks leaves me with 155pts for 2 squads of Ork boyz against your Riptide. Two Nobz with Big Choppas = 42 leave me with 113pts for boyz. which is just enough for 19 boyz so 10 boyz with a Nob in 1 squad and 9 in the other with a Nob. Lets assume both of these units somehow get up the field without exploding, lets also assume that when they disembark some kind of magic happens where the Tau gunline doesn't obliterate the front rank of Boyz. So 19 boyz and 2 Nobz with BCs get into CC with your Riptide. 19 Boyz = 76 Attacks hitting on 3s which = 51 hits, wounding on 6s = 9 wounds or so, against a 2+ save with a 5+ FNP that equals about 1 wound. The 2 nobz with 8 attacks at S7 swing next, They hit with 6 attacks and wound with 4. Against that 2+ thats maybe 1 more wound if they are lucky. Riptide swings back and kills 1-2 boyz, Combat is Tied. YAY ORKS!.
The next phase those Nobz will be swinging with 6 attacks at S6 instead of 7 and those boyz lose a lot of attacks, going from 76 down to about 51. Still hitting on 3s and wounding on 6s though.
So in about 3-4 rounds of CC yeah, orks will win, if EVERYTHING fails for the Tau player and he somehow forgets to shoot the Trukkz bum rushing up the field.
So in actuality what your saying is Riptides suck against AP2 close combat attacks, anything else has a pretty good chance of doing diddly squat. If I switched out the Nobz in each of those units for PK Nobz then the orks might win on the 1st round of combat, of course that is still not factoring in Trukkz being exposed to possibly 2 full turns of Shooting, it also ignores the likelihood of the Tau player Nova charging his Invul save to 3++ which would make him rather harder to kill, nor does it include overwatch, which against Tau can be murderous.
Nothing like getting lit up with 2-3 marker lights during overwatch and watching that Riptide hit you with BS3-4 Heavy Burst Cannon shots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only time a Riptide is "Fine" is against SM armies who are bringing Gladius or tons of Grav Cents or against Eldar. Against almost everyone else its utter cheese.
1.) codex balance should be better at large, the wide variety in army viability is not ok, but needs a total re-write from BRB through codecies.
2.) saying that orks have a hard time versus the riptide/tau is like saying the kid with 1 leg stumpy arms and stage 4 cancer has a hard time versus a healthy experienced navy seal. Orks have a hard time versus mid-tier codices and up. You have my sympathy, your faction should be better. But it's not fair to say "my cripple can't reasonably beat your seal, therefore seal OP" when they would struggle versus essentially the same points in guardsmen with a priest as well
amanita wrote: Make all the riptide weapon's ranges 24" max.
NOW it's a linebreaker. ; )
If you up the HBC's number of shots by a few, deal.
That is fine with me. And when you DS your suicide squad near it, I'll still kill it. Oh, you don't want me to kill your unit? Fine. Put it somewhere that it isn't a threat to mine and I'll leave it alone.
pumaman1 wrote: 1.) codex balance should be better at large, the wide variety in army viability is not ok, but needs a total re-write from BRB through codecies.
2.) saying that orks have a hard time versus the riptide/tau is like saying the kid with 1 leg stumpy arms and stage 4 cancer has a hard time versus a healthy experienced navy seal. Orks have a hard time versus mid-tier codices and up. You have my sympathy, your faction should be better. But it's not fair to say "my cripple can't reasonably beat your seal, therefore seal OP" when they would struggle versus essentially the same points in guardsmen with a priest as well
That is a very accurate statement in regards to the power level of orks Vs. most armies But it doesn't invalidate my point. Change orks to every other codex and its the same. The only armies that have no problem with Riptides are Eldar/SM. And really the only one that can feth up the riptide with more then 1-2 builds is Eldar.
SM have Grav Cannons, thats about it. Almost anything else isn't nearly as effective against a riptide as any other army has access to.
Eldar have a plethora of ways to feth up a riptide. WraithKnight, Wraithguard, Scatbikes, RELIABLE psychic shenanigans.
Every other codex relies on spamming the hell out of the riptide to kill it. And that is ok because thats pretty much what it was designed for, the problem is that it is to cheap for how much it does.
Gamgee wrote: It doesn't need a nerf it's fine where it is. In the new faq it was clarified that you can only shoot one gun if it uses the ordinance profile of the Ion Accelerator. People should have been doing this. Instead they were nova charging moving and shooting both its main weapon and secondary guns.
Don't get this confused for its overcharged profile which is only heavy and the one I preferred to use myself since I can fire both guns and move.
Who Nova charged the Ion Accelerator? All that gets you is +1 Strength and Ordnance compared to the normal overcharged shot. The problem is that the IA can drop a large blast without using the Nova reactor. Get rid of that and cut the range of the IA and you've gone a long way to fixing it.
For my orks a "Decent CC unit" is our regular Boys squad, who probably are better then a lot of dedicated CC units...
It's really odd, everyone always says tau should crush orks. Yet I have a 0% win rate against all three different ork players I've gone against. I mean I bring minimal cheese but orks scare me significantly more than any other codex. *shrug*
More relevantly ontopic. I'm not incredibly familiar with the ork codex or points costs. But all of my ork opponents brought at least 1 powerclaw per squad, which is high Str and Ap2. From my personal experience those do a fine job cutting through the riptide. Maybe that's not competitive at all or is points inefficient but it seemed strong to me. Again I'm not immensely familiar with the ork codex. This is just from what I've been on the receiving end of.
Also if you lock a riptide in combat with a squad of 19 boys, you've killed the riptide for all intensive purposes even if it's not removed from the table. It's never going to kill off that squad before the game ends. They can't break if the Sargent equivalent is alive right? The riptide is never going to kill him off.
It's exactly as durable as it's supposed to be. It's also the only unit in the Tau codex that can actually tarpit non-dedicated CC units.
Broadsides.
Eh. Kinda? Being T4 means most other infinitry models can reasonably wound them enough to force a fair amount of saves. Their horrible CC stats mean they'll often take a wound and get swept in short order. A riptides T6 means most non-dedicated assault units cannot expect really wound it.
The only units I consistently throw into CC are the riptide and Farsight/iridium commander. Although from my understanding the storm surge is fairly strong in CC also. I'm not even comfortable throwing my ghostkeel into CC. It just gets wounded too easily at T5 with a 3+.
That's not what I'm trying to say at all. What I'm saying is that dreadnoughts are not linebreakers. That is not their purpose or niche in your codex. You don't buy drop pods for linebreakers, you walk linebreakers through hails of enemy fire and expect them to live. Your linebreaker is a landraider. Yes landraiders are comparatively overcosted and have all around inferior rules to riptides in almost every way, stay with me it's the closest comparison your codex has that I know of.
My codex is CSM so I don't know nuzzin' about those drop pods you're talking about.
Dreadnought are (in theory) a versatile unit which should be able to fulfill a wide range of roles depending on which equipment is given. A Chaos Dreadnought with a lascannon and a missile launcher certainly is no linebreaker, but one with two power fists (with two attached heavy flamers) is. Then you have the Ironclad Dreadnought from the SM codex which is, for all intents and purposes, a linebreaker through and through.
The entire point of a landraider is to safely transport troops across the midfield into enemy backlines. Theoretically if I thought the landraider was too overpowered (I don't), I wouldn't balance it by turning it into a 12/12/12 vehicle. That would completely destroy the entire point of the models existance. Similarly a riptides entire point of existance is to safely take fire for other tau units. You competely destroy the entire point of its existance by turning it into a 12/12/12. To balance it out you make it's weaknesses more exploitable you don't just utterly hamstring its strengths.
Assume a landraider was say 100 points. How do we balance that without just changing it to 13/11/10 like other imperial tanks of that point cost? Maybe it can only go 6" no flat out so your paying a primium for your survivabilty with almost no mobility. Maybe you heavily reduce the potential occupants of the vehicle. If it can only carry TAC squads and scouts it wouldn't be nearly so good. Maybe you chop off the vast majority of its guns. Maybe you drop only the rear armor to 10, so it is much weaker to deepstrikers and assault units while still being able to shrug off lots of fire. What you don't do is drop it to 12/12/12 because you're annoyed by how hard it is to kill, so now it dies to everything and there's no reason to ever even consider taking it over a rhino or razorback.
This is what I was aiming for with my recommendations. I tried to bring its durability down to the ball park of a landraider. Obviously it'll be more durable with its 3++ up. But if it's doing that its shooting power drops to lower than a landraider and it lacks the ability to transport deadly assault contents. The riptide is more consistently tanky against melta-guns, but more vulnerable to grav and lascannons. It's significantly more vulnerable to <7 Str weapons (unlike a landraider that is just immune to them), but those weapons are extremely ineffective.
The Riptide is vulnerable against grav, yeah, because as I've already said grav is basically a kills-it-all aberration (and the very few things that grav doesn't kill can usually be dealt with boltguns and flamers, so please spesss mehreen cheesemongers don't go that route). Against lascannons? How many lascannon shots does a Riptide need to suffer in order to get killed? Because Ironclad Dreads, Decimators and the like can blow up after suffering a single lascannon shot.
So in short, my clumsy but sturdy robots get blown up to smithereens as soon as anything AP2 touches them, while your super-duper agile & fast robot needs to have its five wounds stripped for it to die.
materpillar wrote: As a Tau player some of the suggested "balance" changes in this thread make me curl up and die inside a little. Personally I play in a less competitive, non-tournament. I've found that even one riptide can be overbearing against some people. It's significantly undercosted and needs to be balanced. I stress balanced, not completely kneecapped and left to die alone in a ditch on the side of a road like some of the suggestions on here.
The riptide holds a unique strategic niche in the Tau codex of being an aggressive midfield "tank"/fire magnet. It's job is to aggressively posture, do noticeable damage in the first turn while loudly screaming "I'M A BIG SCARY MONSTEROUS CREATURE. SHOOT ME!! SHOOOOOOT ME!" Meanwhile the rest of your army runs around winning you the game while it gets shot instead of them. So to surmmerize, it needs to do enough damage your opponent will shoot at it and it needs to not die immediately to said shooting.
A 12/12/12 walker is not this. A 12/12/12 walker dies horribly to a handful lascannons. God forbid it sees anything remotely resembling dedicated firepower like a squad of melta-guns or grav cannons. A 12/12/12 walker is significantly less survivable than my 12/11/10 95 point devilfish with a disruption pod. Do any of you seriously rely on having your dreadnoughts being the primary fire magnet for your army? No, no you don't. You drop pod them directly into enemy lines with heavy back-up and that usually isn't enough to keep them safe.
A riptide as 12/12/12 walker with an exactly the same everything else the same is way worse. It would likely see very little play outside of the most casual of lists. For 60 points less you could just get a hammerhead with Ion Cannon, which has basically the exact same offensive power (except its AP 3 instead of 2). It's also more durable at 13/12/10 with a jink save. The only downsides being it's slightly less maneuverable, having to not shoot if it wants to go 12"+flat out as opposed to having a natural 2d6 assault and requiring greatly reduced firepower for the jink save (but that can be greatly mitigated with cover).
So to summarize, making a riptide a vehicle completely neuters what I perceive to be its niche in the tau codex. That being said riptides are way too good at what they do. So how do we balance them.
Step 1) Competely erase the riptide wing from existance. First and foremost they're aggressively unfluffy. Riptides are immensely rare. A wing would basically only be assembled when assaulting a captain city not these skirmishes we have. Secondly for a riptide to be balanced it needs strengths and weaknesses. One weakness is riptides should inherently be a support unit. By which I mean it's a tank/fire magnet not a DPS model. It needs to do enough damage to be threatening, but it should be doing less damage than a similar amount points of crisis suits or broadsides. An army of only riptides shouldn't be able to table anything. Yet with the sweet sweet power of a handful of marker drones and an extra wave of shooting they can. This is unacceptable. Another weakness is that nova charging is inherintly risky and thus effectively makes a riptide a 3.5W not 5W model. But with this formation all the risk associated with nova charging them is gone, being a massive survivability buff to an already strong model.
Step 2) Disallow the buying of FNP. The model should be hard to kill not borderline impossible. This also increases the risk of nova charging to be an actual risk, not something you should mathematically do every turn.
Step 3) Remove the overheated profile (but not the nova charge) of the Ion Accelerator. Seriously the 3 shot Str7 Ap2 shot profile gets used basically never. If you want that sweet sweet AP2 pie plate you'll have to nova charge for it. Also, you forfeit your movement to shoot it, cause it's ordinance. Since your not nova charging your 3++ your survivabilty drops a ton. This also greatly reduces the power of its interceptor as if you haven't gotten first turn you won't be able to pie plate drop-pods.
Note: Heavy Burst Cannon is fine outside of the riptide wing. 8 shots -> 4 hits -> roughly 1-2 dead marines. Want to threaten actual damage? Gotta nova charge and risk a wound, and again you're much more vulnerable to AP2 damage.
Step 4) Increase points cost as necessary (20-40?). It'll still probably be undercosted still but not hilariously so. It now has clear weaknesses in significantly reduced firepower unless it's nova charging for it. But if it's nova charging for firepower it's not nova charging the 3++ it'll only have a 5++ and no FNP it'll die to an average of 6 Lascannon/Melta/Grav wounds (since nova charging will likely do a wound). Roughly as hard to kill as a landraider. More easily hurt by lascannons but more consistent in that it won't randomly die to a single melta shot.
Side note: As for the walker vs MC debate I always viewed it as dreadnoughts were more like AT-ST or AT-ATs. Big dumb and clumsy while Tau riptides functioned more like gundams in their ability to move around since they're basically extra large crisis suits. I can see why others would disagree though.
Translation:
"Waaaaaaa, big meanies my supa unit is totally fine, you just need to man up and accept your all doing it wrong"
Nope, the Riptide would be fine as an AV 12/12/12 Walker with 5HP, Jump packs and a 5++ invun. You just want your super unit to stay un-touched and guess what? We dont. Have you ever faced a Riptide with, say, Guard? That thing is cheaper than a Russ with the (read, needed) upgrades and yet it can out pace the Russ, out gun it and if it comes to a stand up fight the Riptide will win. You say it is dependant on Markerlights? Well, sois the rest of the Tau army and that does not stop them from curbstomping everything they face. Hell, Markerlights a half a dozen to a penny in an average Tau army.
12/12/12 will force Tau players to actually think about how they use the Riptide, as opposed to its current brainless curbstomping of everything it faces.
, you've killed the riptide for all intensive purposes
These purposes are INTENSE! You cannot believe how INTENSE they are!
The phrase is "for all intents and purposes." for the intent and purpose of taking the riptide out of the game, you would be correct, its 3 attacks at ws 2 Int 2, or 1 S10 attack still at ws 2, its more likely to be swept than sweep.
, you've killed the riptide for all intensive purposes
These purposes are INTENSE! You cannot believe how INTENSE they are!
I don't think that was necessary, considering you knew what he was saying.
Seems on one side we have people arguing that Tau players are "fanboys who don't want their toys taken away" and the other saying "it's all fine".
I'm failing to see decent reasoning in either of those parties. Perhaps we can start to draw a line in the middle on how we can suggest to improve the Riptide, rather than leaning too far to the left or right.
I don't think that was necessary, considering you knew what he was saying.
Seems on one side we have people arguing that Tau players are "fanboys who don't want their toys taken away" and the other saying "it's all fine".
I'm failing to see decent reasoning in either of those parties. Perhaps we can start to draw a line in the middle on how we can suggest to improve the Riptide, rather than leaning too far to the left or right.
Never miss an opportunity to improve your literacy.
To meet in the middle, Pro-Tau have to agree that a points increase, support system limitation, firepower decrease is acceptable, survivability decrease is acceptable, or some combination of the prior.
Anti-Tau would need to agree that the riptide as-is is NOT immortal, should still be good when it's done (just not as overwhelmingly so), this isn't the time for revenge, and external codex balance may make it so that your codex doesn't quite compete still (sorry CSM, Orks).
The problem, from my perspective, is rarely are offers from either side not stated with some hyperbole, OR affects someones favorite facet of the riptide more than they want. Some players would give up the weaponry to have a 2+/3++/5+++ monster that can score, others would turn it into a glass cannon as long as we can keep S8/9 AP2 large blasts with interceptor. So a compromise to the 1 players neuters exactly what they want the riptide to be.
Immortal or functionally immortal? If I have shoot an entire army at it for two turns to kill it, that's as functionally immortal as an invis deathstar.
The problems is that long range AP 2 weapons suck in 7th ed. If lascannons and bright lances caused multiple wounds as they should and denied FNP, the Riptide would be a LOT more manageable. I could pick out the one that failed the reactor roll and blast it. By forcing everyone to rely on short range AP 2 to gain enough ROF, I have to commit before I see who fails the reactor roll. And then, after I fail to kill it, it assaults me and kills all my guys. Because MCsOP.
A couple months ago, I played a duel, one FSE Riptide vs a Swarmlord. I got 2 turns of shooting out of it before I got a lousy thrust move, it was able to get within assault range and kill it in a single round of combat. Anything with instant death or a ranged force weapon, and Riptides are certainly manageable. Oh, and that joke codex, the Tyranids; well Paroxysm was a bane of my existence playing against them.
pumaman1 wrote: Never miss an opportunity to improve your literacy.
Perhaps, but I would try to be considerate of rule no.1 more in the future; not everyone can be as well articulated as the next person.
To meet in the middle, Pro-Tau have to agree that a points increase, support system limitation, firepower decrease is acceptable, survivability decrease is acceptable, or some combination of the prior.
Anti-Tau would need to agree that the riptide as-is is NOT immortal, should still be good when it's done (just not as overwhelmingly so), this isn't the time for revenge, and external codex balance may make it so that your codex doesn't quite compete still (sorry CSM, Orks).
The problem, from my perspective, is rarely are offers from either side not stated with some hyperbole, OR affects someones favorite facet of the riptide more than they want. Some players would give up the weaponry to have a 2+/3++/5+++ monster that can score, others would turn it into a glass cannon as long as we can keep S8/9 AP2 large blasts with interceptor. So a compromise to the 1 players neuters exactly what they want the riptide to be.
I don't sit either in the Pro Tau or Anti Tau rings, because I see both of those groups as taking things too far. The ground that needs to be found is a place where the Riptide still stands as a good unit, but is fairly included into the game to allow for a better sense of fair play and fun when going against it.
Really this should be done to every unit in the game, but we'd be here till eternity. For now, in regards to the Riptide, I think a points increase should be the starting point. Next is the reconsideration to a Walker type; it seems to be controversial on this thread, but if a Dreadnought is classed as a Walker, it is only fair that a Riptide is classed in the same manner. The Riptide is a tank of sorts, so I will continue to propose a front armour value of 13, with the sides and rear either being 11 or 10. That puts it on equal turf as a Venerable Dread, before saves are put in the equation. After that, keep the Shield Generator at a 5++. or 4 if it is Nova Charged.
Increase the price of the Ion Accelerator, and either increase the price of the Stimulant Injector or trash it; 40k is not complex enough for crew management, where something like the Stimulant Injector could have been used as a way to stop the pilot from receiving a incapacitating injury. With the rules as simple as they are for vehicles, I consider the Stimulant Injector to be one save too many on a vehicle.
Then obviously give the Riptide rules to make Jet Pack moves. How does this sound now?
Really this should be done to every unit in the game, but we'd be here till eternity. For now, in regards to the Riptide, I think a points increase should be the starting point. Next is the reconsideration to a Walker type; it seems to be controversial on this thread, but if a Dreadnought is classed as a Walker, it is only fair that a Riptide is classed in the same manner. The Riptide is a tank of sorts, so I will continue to propose a front armour value of 13, with the sides and rear either being 11 or 10. That puts it on equal turf as a Venerable Dread, before saves are put in the equation. After that, keep the Shield Generator at a 5++. or 4 if it is Nova Charged.
Increase the price of the Ion Accelerator, and either increase the price of the Stimulant Injector or trash it; 40k is not complex enough for crew management, where something like the Stimulant Injector could have been used as a way to stop the pilot from receiving a incapacitating injury. With the rules as simple as they are for vehicles, I consider the Stimulant Injector to be one save too many on a vehicle.
Then obviously give the Riptide rules to make Jet Pack moves. How does this sound now?
I appreciate your desire to stay as unbiased as possible, but that rule set will make for an extremely weak unit. I'm making this judgement purely comparing it to only to other tau codex choices.
Proposed Riptide Ruleset- more than 185 points
13/11/10 Walker with a Strength 8 AP 2 pie plate and SMS system.
Defensively it has a 5++ and can risk a wound for a 4++
It has 4 wounds (since statistically it'll wound itself at least once a game).
6" movement + 2d6 jump
Hammerhead - 125 points
13/12/10 skimmer with a Str 8 AP 3 pie plate and SMS system.
Defensively it has a 4+ jink that can be upgrade to a 3+
It has 3 wounds.
Effective 6" movement, but can move up to 12" if necessary. Ignores terrain/models while moving.
The hammerhead is less durable in CC, but it cannot be locked in combat which I'd guess is basically a wash.
AP 3 -> AP 2, +1 wound and slightly better movement isn't worth remotely close to 60 points and you want to make the riptide and Ion Accelerator even more expensive? Unless you're intentionally weakening your army there would be no reason to take this riptide over a hammerhead unless you're encountering mono-terminator grey knight army lists.
For me, giving it a walker profile is an instant no. Walker is largely an IoM tax in my mind for having 1/2 the playable models in the game as battle brothers.
Stimulant injectors, take them. I'd rather FNP be removed entirely from the game, or be properly categorized as a save (because it blatantly is one).
And don't forget-to get the 4+ (3+) on a Devilfish, you're snap shooting next turn.
Yes an invulnerable save it noticeably better, but not by as much as you think. Say you get hit by two melta rounds. The difference between saves is very minimal. With either the 4++ or 4+ jink you should make one save and they'll probably get a penetrating hit against you.
1/3 chance that's going to stun or shake you and 1/3 chance it blows you up both of which have the same result as jinking. The other 1/3 of the time is immobilized/weapon destroyed in which jinking is worse. Now this isn't a perfect comparison, as your opponent can just take a shot or two at you to make you jink and then ignore you the rest of the turn as opposed to having to dedicate shots at your invulnerable until they pen you. So in practice against models with a single lascannon or melta gun, the jink save is tactically worse. However, against squads that can consistently get 2 penetrating hits the difference is fairly small.
Ontop of which decent natural cover and positioning can reduce the need to jink in a game, making the difference even less.
Yes ignore cover is a thing and you can't jink against CC. Invulnerable saves are better but not enough to salvage this unit. You'd take 3 hammerheads over 2 of these walker riptides everytime. It isn't even close.
[edit]: Forgot to add the AP1 modifier into my calculations.
Martel732 wrote: 3+ armor is a huge change alone. I'd play test that change alone first.
The reason I am less worried about 3+ armor, in the era of grav spam, it actually makes them more survivable. And as proposed, still has the opportunity for a 3++, but risking the wound 1/3rd of the time. Versus a horde, it actually will take more wounds, so guardsmen/boyz and especially power weapons will be worth an investment.
The weakness it opens up more than my initial thought to force weapons, however. If you don't get the 3++ you are really vulnerable.
pumaman1 wrote: Your terminators for lightning claws will go first and kill it in 1 charge, should you have 3 or more survive.
It still needs to lose smash so tac termies can beat it up too. Riptide should lose to anything resembling CC and it's just too dangerous with smash. Give it rending instead.
Let Tau vehicles buy an upgrade to jink without snap firing. Almost like they have real targeting systems. They're vehicles; you can give them all kinds of love without them becoming OP because vehicles are so fething terrible right now.
Martel732 wrote: Poison becomes a thing again. That's why the 3+ matters a lot. 2+ armor turns off poison in practice.
Yes. With a 3+, it dies like a tactical squad to poison, even with FNP. And Tactical Marines have never been famous for their hardiness.
Actually tac squads are pretty tough per point, they just have no offense to speak of. Until the grav cannon. So BAtac squads are left with no offense.
pumaman1 wrote: Your terminators for lightning claws will go first and kill it in 1 charge, should you have 3 or more survive.
It still needs to lose smash so tac termies can beat it up too. Riptide should lose to anything resembling CC and it's just too dangerous with smash. Give it rending instead.
Now, to be fair, a riptide could kick a terminator away. And WS 2 I2 3A, I honestly don't think smash (AP2 or 1 s10ap2 attack) is that much to ask IF it survives long enough.
OR let the Earth Cast Pilot Array be taken by 1 riptide per army. WS 1, but re-roll 1s in shooting and Nova charge. Since it's a signature system, we currently cannot take a "relic" expressly designed for the unit.
WS 2 still hits on a 4. If terminators were WS 5 stock, I'd agree.
Yes, a riptide could kick a terminator, but there is NO WAY it should ignoring armor that thick. In fact, I think smash should be a much rarer ability. There's many MCs that probably shouldn't have it. AP 2 on init in melee is LOT to ask in general. I have to take crappy ass dreadnoughts to get it. Dreadnoughts whose shooting and durability are both awful.
It has no melee weapon or even a fist. It is going to try to awkwardly kick you.
I don't know. AP 2 is really not appropriate without giant claws or a blade of some kind. Most Tyranid MCs probably shouldn't have AP 2, either. Nor unarmed demon princes. Melee AP 2 is just as much a culprit at making sanguinary guard and tac terminators worthless as the shooting. No matter what weapons I give sanguinary guard, they lose to a Riptide in CC.
And now we have the Tau "FMC" crisis suit as an example of how to give some of the MC/FMC rules without giving all of them. It would be pretty easy to make the Riptide's unit type MC, but with only AP 4 attacks.
Peregrine wrote: And now we have the Tau "FMC" crisis suit as an example of how to give some of the MC/FMC rules without giving all of them. It would be pretty easy to make the Riptide's unit type MC, but with only AP 4 attacks.
AP 4 or rending is fine. As it would be for many other MCs.
pumaman1 wrote: AP4 3 attacks, or trade in for 1 Sx2 (ie 10) ap2 attack? Combining the proposed smash and current smash?
Yeah, that's fine. You are stepping on one sanguinary guard REALLY hard. I can buy that much more than ignoring 2+ armor willy-nilly. I'd also propose that super heavies and GMCs can't STOMP MCs and walkers. Make them swing that D-chainsword or be stuck punching in the case of the WK.
So currently the proposed, 180 points base, for a :
Ws 2 Bs3 S6 T6 W5 A3 I2 LD9 3+, with the "normal/current" Nova profile and armament.
It can take support systems less Shield generator, vectored retro-thrusts (both current), and stimulant injectors.
We will add 1 ECPA per army to re-roll 1s to hit, and re-roll nova charge.
Riptide wing is shuffled to Apocalypse only, but each turn it doesn't move it can hail-fire (because tau are garbage in apoc, but it doesn't belong in codex 40k)
Smash, in general is Ap4 at initiative, unless with a weapon that specifies differently (ie carnifex), but can be traded in for 1 s 10 ap2 attack (at initiate).
Am I missing anything we came to?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for reference, in the farsight enclaves book, the ECPA was 50 points, not cheap, but still sorta' an auto-include.
pumaman1 wrote: 1.) codex balance should be better at large, the wide variety in army viability is not ok, but needs a total re-write from BRB through codecies.
2.) saying that orks have a hard time versus the riptide/tau is like saying the kid with 1 leg stumpy arms and stage 4 cancer has a hard time versus a healthy experienced navy seal. Orks have a hard time versus mid-tier codices and up. You have my sympathy, your faction should be better. But it's not fair to say "my cripple can't reasonably beat your seal, therefore seal OP" when they would struggle versus essentially the same points in guardsmen with a priest as well
But that's the point. Us Spikey Boys, Orks, 'Nids, Imperial Guard etc. have zero chance against the Goddamn Wing. If it's so far up and above most things we can bring, that means it probably should be taken down several notches.
pumaman1 wrote: 1.) codex balance should be better at large, the wide variety in army viability is not ok, but needs a total re-write from BRB through codecies.
2.) saying that orks have a hard time versus the riptide/tau is like saying the kid with 1 leg stumpy arms and stage 4 cancer has a hard time versus a healthy experienced navy seal. Orks have a hard time versus mid-tier codices and up. You have my sympathy, your faction should be better. But it's not fair to say "my cripple can't reasonably beat your seal, therefore seal OP" when they would struggle versus essentially the same points in guardsmen with a priest as well
But that's the point. Us Spikey Boys, Orks, 'Nids, Imperial Guard etc. have zero chance against the Goddamn Wing. If it's so far up and above most things we can bring, that means it probably should be taken down several notches.
I can bring my Shadowsword and hope to hell that I get the first turn, manage to hit one or two with the blast and '6' on the result to kill off at least two of them. Because if I do not get the first turn and I fail to kill at least one of them I will lose.
My proposed stats for the Riptide are thus:
180 points
WS 2, BS 3, S6, AV F 12, S 12, R 12, I 2, A 1, HP 5.
Equipment: exactly as it is now.
Special rules: Nova Generator; You may choose to use the Nova Generator at the start of your turn to boost one aspect of the riptide. Roll a D6, on a 3+ choose an ability from the following list and apply it until your next turn, on a 1 or 2 the Riptide suffers a glancing hit.
Ion Accelerator: The Ion Cannon gains 12" of range and becomes Heavy/7, Blast, gets hot
Burst Cannon overdrive: The Heavy Burst Cannon becomes Heavy/16, Rending
Thruster Burst: The Riptide may move an extra 2D6" every time it uses its Jump Pack This may be used to move it out of assault.
Shield Overcharge: The Riptide gains a 4+ invulnerable save
At my FLGS, we like to do a lot of playtesting and re-balancing. The riptide was a hotly debated topic. Everyone, including the other tau player and myself, agreed that it was overpowered/undercosted. After much consideration (and bickering), then finally some playtesting a general consensus was reached. Ultimately, the prevailing opinion was that the simplest solutions were the best, and that there was no reason to "re-invent the wheel". We had 2 possible solutions. The riptide wing was removed for both. They are as follows:
Solution 1: Points redistribution.
The basic riptide was raised to 200 points base (the heavy burst cannon lost gets hot on the nova roll), the ion accelerator was raised to a 20 points upgrade, the early warning override (interceptor) was raised to a 30 point upgrade, and stimulant injectors (feel no pain) was raised to a 50 point upgrade.
The typical ion, EWO, and stim riptide would end up costing a flat 300 points with these changes, which our playtesting determined left the riptide as useful without being to unfair. Generally considered "autotake" options like the stim injectors, ion, and EWO became actual options you would have to heavily consider whether to take or not.
Solution 2: Toning down.
The invulnerable save was reduced to 6+ and 4+ when NOVA'd, the ion accelerator no longer has the overcharge option (just the 3 shot and the novacharge-which no longer counted as ordnance), May no longer take early warning override or stimulant injectors. Also gets hot was removed from the NOVA profile of the heavy burst cannon.
The reduction of the invulnerable save and lack of feel no pain makes this version far easier to take down, furthermore removing the overcharge option from the ion accelerator means ion toting riptides really have to consider whether they need to NOVA for offense or for defense like the heavy burst cannon variant. Removing EWO was a subject of much consternation but was ultimately agreed that every other suit can take it, so it wasn't a huge deal (Tau would still have the most access to interceptor by far.)
It seems this discussion is rather pointless because there are two kinds of directions: The people who say the riptide is fine (which it is when playing against all codices since necrons), and the people who want to nerf it to Ork/AM/DE level.
However, if you want to argue the second point, I can give you a looong laundry list of stuff that is just as broken against older codices, if not worse - starting with the Decurion just rolling over every older codex, to scatterbikes to various space marine lists that absolutely trash those factions. The riptide is usually singled out because it was among the first units with a distinctly higher powerlevel, but it is no longer the worst offender by far. Hell, an optimized stealth cadre can probably wipe an orc army all by itself within 2-3 turns.
Either the older codices need to be brought up to speed, or the next edition must reset the powerlevel on a fundamental level. Or you can try nerfing almost every unit and formation in the post-necron codices until SOB are competitive again.
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
Pretty much this, if space marines played anything besides a Skyhammer/Gladius/soon to be Strike Force Ultima style set up, and if space marines weren't over 1/2 the played armies, it would make sense to take things other than EWO. But that's not the case, and the lower tiered factions would be stomped on by fundamental flaws in larger game balance. Balancing the riptide to whatever just means we'll take other stuff, but your codex is just worse. That shouldn't be the case, but it is.
For spiky boys, you've got access to demon princes, summoning to make me waste shooting/intercept on free units, and raptors/talons can assault out of deepstrike, so with some clever positioning, you should still be ok. You are not sitting well overall, and massively uphill as a few formations doesn't change weak foundation, but you have more answers now than before.
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
Pretty much this, if space marines played anything besides a Skyhammer/Gladius/soon to be Strike Force Ultima style set up, and if space marines weren't over 1/2 the played armies, it would make sense to take things other than EWO. But that's not the case, and the lower tiered factions would be stomped on by fundamental flaws in larger game balance. Balancing the riptide to whatever just means we'll take other stuff, but your codex is just worse. That shouldn't be the case, but it is.
For spiky boys, you've got access to demon princes, summoning to make me waste shooting/intercept on free units, and raptors/talons can assault out of deepstrike, so with some clever positioning, you should still be ok. You are not sitting well overall, and massively uphill as a few formations doesn't change weak foundation, but you have more answers now than before.
To be fair, we've done fairly comprehensive balance changing across the factions and the core rules themselves. Not just the riptide.
Which is a serious problem in threads like these. It's impossible to properly balance anything in a vacuum. You see this in threads about how to balance other things (like grav) and one of the common answers is that you shouldn't nerf a faction's overpowered stuff so long as other factions possess equally (or even more) overpowered stuff, and to be fair this is a valid point in a way, but where does this leave the have-not factions? Maybe they should all be buffed to Eldar levels, but should we really take everything to that extreme to balance the game or should we tone down overpowered stuff to a lower tier? I suppose that's a matter of taste since there's no objectively right or wrong answer.
So long as there exists such a huge gap between the power of various factions and even various units within these factions, it becomes impossible to get several people to agree on where the balance bar is to be set. Until we all agree as a community what the standard for balance is these threads will never be fruitful.
Don't nerf riptides because grav and scat bikes exist. Don't nerf wraithknights because deathstars and decurions exist. Don't nerf grav because wraithknights and riptides exist. Nerf everything because wyches and rough riders exist... etc. It's an endless cycle, and the only way to break it is "the dream." The one where GW reboots the entire game 3rd edition style and updates everything simultaneously... only this time with perfect internal and external balance. Maybe 8th edition will do this. I seriously doubt it.
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
Pretty much this, if space marines played anything besides a Skyhammer/Gladius/soon to be Strike Force Ultima style set up, and if space marines weren't over 1/2 the played armies, it would make sense to take things other than EWO. But that's not the case, and the lower tiered factions would be stomped on by fundamental flaws in larger game balance. Balancing the riptide to whatever just means we'll take other stuff, but your codex is just worse. That shouldn't be the case, but it is.
The complaint about EWO has never been strictly that Tau have access to it.
It's the ridiculously low points cost coupled with the widespread availability and how hard counter it makes Tau to virtually any army that relies upon not walking across the board.
You can whine all you want about Skyhammer or Gladius, but once again:
Not every Space Marine army has access to those things as part of their unique Detachments. Tau hardcounter the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment strictly because of EWO and SMS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ushtarador wrote: It seems this discussion is rather pointless because there are two kinds of directions: The people who say the riptide is fine (which it is when playing against all codices since necrons), and the people who want to nerf it to Ork/AM/DE level.
However, if you want to argue the second point, I can give you a looong laundry list of stuff that is just as broken against older codices, if not worse - starting with the Decurion just rolling over every older codex, to scatterbikes to various space marine lists that absolutely trash those factions. The riptide is usually singled out because it was among the first units with a distinctly higher powerlevel, but it is no longer the worst offender by far. Hell, an optimized stealth cadre can probably wipe an orc army all by itself within 2-3 turns.
Either the older codices need to be brought up to speed, or the next edition must reset the powerlevel on a fundamental level. Or you can try nerfing almost every unit and formation in the post-necron codices until SOB are competitive again.
The Riptide is singled out because, like the Wraithknight, it was a distinctly powerful unit to begin with. Both have seen buffs with no real drawbacks.
That's why Riptides are singled out. There is virtually nothing that the Riptide can't do.
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
You had 5 Riptides on the field?
You deserved to be Skyhammered.
You know, this is the evidence that the game is out of control. And is all our fault.
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
You had 5 Riptides on the field?
You deserved to be Skyhammered.
You know, this is the evidence that the game is out of control. And is all our fault.
No, it is GWs fault for writing rules which allowed the game to get this out of control.
@chalkobob These changes sound fine against some codices. On the other hand, if you encounter e.g. a Skyhammer with full grav loadout, EWO is the only thing that prevents you from packing your army turn 1. I played against a skyhammer just last week, and even after EWO from 5 charged riptides there was enough grav left to kill 2.5 of them (and a third one was swept in CC by the assault marines).
You had 5 Riptides on the field?
You deserved to be Skyhammered.
You know, this is the evidence that the game is out of control. And is all our fault.
No, it is GWs fault for writing rules which allowed the game to get this out of control.
It really isn't.
Players don't have to take 5 IA equipped Riptides. Nothing is forcing them to.
Same can be said for Skyhammer with full Grav.
The complaint about EWO has never been strictly that Tau have access to it.
It's the ridiculously low points cost coupled with the widespread availability and how hard counter it makes Tau to virtually any army that relies upon not walking across the board.
You can whine all you want about Skyhammer or Gladius, but once again:
Not every Space Marine army has access to those things as part of their unique Detachments. Tau hardcounter the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment strictly because of EWO and SMS.
can you be specific which raven guard formations you are running that interceptor is a major factor for you? Do you normally play with any LOS blocking terrain? And maybe its time to devise a new plan of attack, other than deep striking in on tau? For raven guard, you have army wide scout... so instead of deepstriking in, maybe utilize scout to get you into workable positions.
The complaint about EWO has never been strictly that Tau have access to it.
It's the ridiculously low points cost coupled with the widespread availability and how hard counter it makes Tau to virtually any army that relies upon not walking across the board.
You can whine all you want about Skyhammer or Gladius, but once again:
Not every Space Marine army has access to those things as part of their unique Detachments. Tau hardcounter the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment strictly because of EWO and SMS.
can you be specific which raven guard formations you are running that interceptor is a major factor for you?
Pinion Demi-Company(Outflanking for units as long as a Scout unit is held back as well)
Do you normally play with any LOS blocking terrain?
Read what I wrote.
Tau hardcounter the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment strictly because of EWO and SMS.
You do know what "Homing" does, right?
LOS blocking doesn't mean crap if someone goes SMS heavy.
And maybe its time to devise a new plan of attack, other than deep striking in on tau?
Maybe it's time for Tau to lose army wide protection against non-standard deployment measures or having to pay more than 5 flipping points for Interceptor.
For raven guard, you have army wide scout... so instead of deepstriking in, maybe utilize scout to get you into workable positions.
Actually, you do not have army wide Scout for Raven Guard.
Chapter Tactics:
Strike from the Shadows: Non-vehicle Raven Guard models that do not begin the game in a Transport vehicle have the Shrouded special rule until the start of the second game turn. When rolling to see whether the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect during game turn 1, you may add 1 to the result if your army contains at least one Raven Guard unit.
You have army wide Shrouded if you meet the criteria I stated. You cannot be in a Transport and have to begin the game on the table. So by doing the Pinion Demi-Company's "Wayfinders"(Scout Squads kept in Reserve to Outflank can be accompanied by a unit from the Pinion and the accompanying unit can Outflank as well), you actually lose one of your army's Chapter Tactics. Sure you can argue that "Well Wayfinders still gives the accompanying units Stealth!"...but it's Stealth for the turn you arrive and requires you to be within a fixed distance of the Scouts.
The same goes with the Shadowstrike Kill Team(2-4 Scout Squads and 1-3 Vanguard Veteran Squads) utilizing its "On Time..." and "...On Target" special rules for the Vanguard, the Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force(not to be confused with THE Skyhammer. This is 3 Tactical Squads and 1-3 units of Land Speeders) or the Ravenhawk Assault Group(Sternguard Veteran Squad, a Dreadnought[any Codex legal type], and a Stormraven Gunship).
can you be specific which raven guard formations you are running that interceptor is a major factor for you?
Pinion Demi-Company(Outflanking for units as long as a Scout unit is held back as well)
Do you normally play with any LOS blocking terrain?
Read what I wrote.
Bold for emphasis of question you didn't answer? you never wrote about general terrain conditions you play with. + or - terrian or LOS blocking terrian.
Tau hardcounter the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment strictly because of EWO and SMS.
You do know what "Homing" does, right?
LOS blocking doesn't mean crap if someone goes SMS heavy.
yes i do know what homing does. ap 5 is so scary to 3+ armor..
And maybe its time to devise a new plan of attack, other than deep striking in on tau?
Maybe it's time for Tau to lose army wide protection against non-standard deployment measures or having to pay more than 5 flipping points for Interceptor.
Incentivize other play, to encourage non-EWO. its a chicken and egg paradox (i need interceptor because you deepstrike everything, because i have interceptor, because you deep strike everything...). its only waste if you start on the board, or are a flyer.
Anyway.. Martel actually agreed with 1 proposed version of a riptide, so I will count that as a reasonable suggestion. Again, anything walker profile (even giving me 7 shots of s7 ap2 at 72") pretty much instantly no, over nerf.
can you be specific which raven guard formations you are running that interceptor is a major factor for you?
Pinion Demi-Company(Outflanking for units as long as a Scout unit is held back as well)
Do you normally play with any LOS blocking terrain?
Read what I wrote.
Bold for emphasis of question you didn't answer? you never wrote about general terrain conditions you play with. + or - terrian or LOS blocking terrian.
I shouldn't have had to answer it. Specifically pointing out that EWO with SMS hardcounters the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment should have been all the answer you needed.
But since you have to know... It's about 75% terrain coverage with ruins and buildings all over the place. There's a few fire lanes, but for the most part LOS requires careful maneuvering.
Tau hardcounter the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment strictly because of EWO and SMS.
You do know what "Homing" does, right?
LOS blocking doesn't mean crap if someone goes SMS heavy.
yes i do know what homing does. ap 5 is so scary to 3+ armor..
S5 AP5 with a 30" range and 4 shots.
Yes, you can most likely make some of the saves. But how many points do SMS cost? How many units in the Tau army can take SMSANDEWO?
And maybe its time to devise a new plan of attack, other than deep striking in on tau?
Maybe it's time for Tau to lose army wide protection against non-standard deployment measures or having to pay more than 5 flipping points for Interceptor.
Incentivize other play, to encourage non-EWO. its a chicken and egg paradox (i need interceptor because you deepstrike everything, because i have interceptor, because you deep strike everything...). its only waste if you start on the board, or are a flyer.
It'sFIVE POINTS.
You do NOT get to complain about "wasted" points when it costs you FIVE FLIPPING POINTS to give ON DEMANDInterceptor to any of your Battlesuit chassis. It would be an entirely different story if it made the weapons Skyfire, where you actually are penalized(not really since Tau can just Markerlight their BS back up to normal levels but...) for paying the points (a REAL penalty, not this made up penalty of "Oh I spent 5 points and you walked across the board! Oh man! I wasted 5 points!").
Anyway.. Martel actually agreed with 1 proposed version of a riptide, so I will count that as a reasonable suggestion. Again, anything walker profile (even giving me 7 shots of s7 ap2 at 72") pretty much instantly no, over nerf.
I don't really care what Martel said.
The Riptide needs to be T5 with 3 Wounds, tops, to justify the current pricing. I pay 145 points for 3 Bullgryn in my IG force. That nets me 9 wounds at T5 with a 4+ save, spread across three models that are also S5. My Bullgryn cannot Overwatch(Grenadier Gauntlets are blast items), they do not have access to cheap FNP, they do not get an Invulnerable Save nor anything like Nova Reactor. A Tau player pays 180 points for a Riptide, with 5W at T6, S6, and the MC attribute.
If you cannot see that yes, the issue is that the Riptide is way too powerful for what it is(it SHOULD be a glass cannon)? I can't help you. If you also cannot see that the points costs for Battlesuit Systems are way too stupidly low? Also cannot help you.
Kanluwen wrote: [ But how many points do SMS cost? How many units in the Tau army can take SMSANDEWO?
Only 2 units in the Tau army can take SMS and EWO (except for a single Commander only Crisis suit variant from Forge World), Riptides and Broadsides.
As for how many points SMS cost, that is harder to work out. On the Riptide you can switch your twin-linked SMS to twin-linked plasma or fusion for free, which would make it worth 20 points. On the broadsides you can switch it for twin-linked plasma for 5 points, which makes it worth 15 points. On Hammerhead and Skyray you can switch 2 gun drones for one twin-linked SMS which makes it cost ~24-28 points (though some of that is costing in the increase from BS2 to BS4). On a Devilfish it costs 10 points to switch your gun drones for an SMS, making it cost ~14-18 points (including getting BS3 as opposed to BS2).
Kanluwen wrote: [
But how many points do SMS cost? How many units in the Tau army can take SMSANDEWO?
Only 2 units in the Tau army can take SMS and EWO (except for a single Commander only Crisis suit variant from Forge World), Riptides and Broadsides.
Three.
Stormsurges have a twin-linked Smart Missile System base and can take EWO.
In any regards, the point should have been brutally clear.
SMS is something that should be paid for, yet it is the "basic" option for Riptides, Broadsides, and Stormsurges.
Kanluwen wrote: [
But how many points do SMS cost? How many units in the Tau army can take SMSANDEWO?
Only 2 units in the Tau army can take SMS and EWO (except for a single Commander only Crisis suit variant from Forge World), Riptides and Broadsides.
Three.
Stormsurges have a twin-linked Smart Missile System base and can take EWO.
In any regards, the point should have been brutally clear.
SMS is something that should be paid for, yet it is the "basic" option for Riptides, Broadsides, and Stormsurges.
And has been since Broadsides were introduced. These units are paying for SMS in their base cost.
Kanluwen wrote: [
But how many points do SMS cost? How many units in the Tau army can take SMSANDEWO?
Only 2 units in the Tau army can take SMS and EWO (except for a single Commander only Crisis suit variant from Forge World), Riptides and Broadsides.
Three.
Stormsurges have a twin-linked Smart Missile System base and can take EWO.
In any regards, the point should have been brutally clear.
SMS is something that should be paid for, yet it is the "basic" option for Riptides, Broadsides, and Stormsurges.
And has been since Broadsides were introduced. These units are paying for SMS in their base cost.
Yeah...that's not even remotely true. SMS upon first introduction did not have anything like the rules they have now, nor did Markerlights function the way they do now. So while maybe that argument would hold water if this were 4th edition and Tau were still a relatively new army...but it doesn't hold water now.
Re-read those rules. When first introduced (and all the way through 4th) SMS ignored LOS and intervening cover (you only got a cover save for actually being in area terrain or touching terrain between you and the firer), no markerlights needed.
Players don't have to take 5 IA equipped Riptides. Nothing is forcing them to.
Same can be said for Skyhammer with full Grav.
Nothing forced GW to write rules allowing players to take 5 Riptides or Skyhammer with full Grav.
I blame the greed of GW, and those hack frauds of the "designers" every other day. Still, if GW put us in condition to limit ourselves or spam-to-win, we always choose the dark side.
I remember this happening in WHFB, with the last tournament my friends and I tried to attempt was 45% Daemons 45% Vampire counts. All new and grey, of course.
can you be specific which raven guard formations you are running that interceptor is a major factor for you?
Pinion Demi-Company(Outflanking for units as long as a Scout unit is held back as well)
Do you normally play with any LOS blocking terrain?
Read what I wrote.
Bold for emphasis of question you didn't answer? you never wrote about general terrain conditions you play with. + or - terrian or LOS blocking terrian.
I shouldn't have had to answer it. Specifically pointing out that EWO with SMS hardcounters the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment should have been all the answer you needed.
But since you have to know...
It's about 75% terrain coverage with ruins and buildings all over the place. There's a few fire lanes, but for the most part LOS requires careful maneuvering.
Tau hardcounter the crap out of the Raven Guard detachment strictly because of EWO and SMS.
You do know what "Homing" does, right?
LOS blocking doesn't mean crap if someone goes SMS heavy.
yes i do know what homing does. ap 5 is so scary to 3+ armor..
S5 AP5 with a 30" range and 4 shots.
Yes, you can most likely make some of the saves.
But how many points do SMS cost? How many units in the Tau army can take SMSANDEWO?
And maybe its time to devise a new plan of attack, other than deep striking in on tau?
Maybe it's time for Tau to lose army wide protection against non-standard deployment measures or having to pay more than 5 flipping points for Interceptor.
Incentivize other play, to encourage non-EWO. its a chicken and egg paradox (i need interceptor because you deepstrike everything, because i have interceptor, because you deep strike everything...). its only waste if you start on the board, or are a flyer.
It'sFIVE POINTS.
You do NOT get to complain about "wasted" points when it costs you FIVE FLIPPING POINTS to give ON DEMANDInterceptor to any of your Battlesuit chassis. It would be an entirely different story if it made the weapons Skyfire, where you actually are penalized(not really since Tau can just Markerlight their BS back up to normal levels but...) for paying the points (a REAL penalty, not this made up penalty of "Oh I spent 5 points and you walked across the board! Oh man! I wasted 5 points!").
Anyway.. Martel actually agreed with 1 proposed version of a riptide, so I will count that as a reasonable suggestion. Again, anything walker profile (even giving me 7 shots of s7 ap2 at 72") pretty much instantly no, over nerf.
I don't really care what Martel said.
The Riptide needs to be T5 with 3 Wounds, tops, to justify the current pricing.
I pay 145 points for 3 Bullgryn in my IG force. That nets me 9 wounds at T5 with a 4+ save, spread across three models that are also S5. My Bullgryn cannot Overwatch(Grenadier Gauntlets are blast items), they do not have access to cheap FNP, they do not get an Invulnerable Save nor anything like Nova Reactor.
A Tau player pays 180 points for a Riptide, with 5W at T6, S6, and the MC attribute.
If you cannot see that yes, the issue is that the Riptide is way too powerful for what it is(it SHOULD be a glass cannon)? I can't help you.
If you also cannot see that the points costs for Battlesuit Systems are way too stupidly low? Also cannot help you.
Calm down. and 5 points wasted over 15 suits instead of other more applicable upgrades is waste. Also, there is nothing constructive in this.
We can see it is powerful, which is why we are talking about ways to balance it, without going overboard. Going after "revenge" is a sure fire way to ruin the discussion.
Calm down. and 5 points wasted over 15 suits instead of other more applicable upgrades is waste. Also, there is nothing constructive in this.
We can see it is powerful, which is why we are talking about ways to balance it, without going overboard. Going after "revenge" is a sure fire way to ruin the discussion.
Unfortunately for you, going after "revenge" is not what's happening.
Realistically? The Riptide is overpowered and always has been.
Pretending that it is not is what ruins these discussions when posters like yourself bring up nonsense like "but Early Warning Override can be 5 points wasted across >insert random number of suits here<".
The fact that you don't see that the simple fact that you can get that much Interceptor is part of the problem beggars belief. I would kill to be able to put Interceptor on my Sentinels or Dreadnoughts.
Tau players though?
"If they don't null deploy I wasted those points!"
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Martel732 wrote: Using bullgryns as a balancing point seems silly to me.
It is, but it was the first thing that came to mind for Guard. They're both Elites, they're both fluffwise supposed to be "Linebreaker" units, etc.
Back toward my original point - the Riptide is not intended to be a glass cannon. Crisis Suits are the glass cannon, the Riptide is meant to be a fire soak. Almost certainly less firepower per point than a Crisis Suit, but more durability per point. Making it squishy but deadly seems to me to defeat the purpose. (The Stormsurge, OTOH, probably should be squishy but deadly. It's also OP.)
I will agree that Interceptor is part of the problem. Tau should have it, but probably not quite so profligately as now.
Realistically? The Riptide is overpowered and always has been.
Pretending that it is not is what ruins these discussions when posters like yourself bring up nonsense like "but Early Warning Override can be 5 points wasted across >insert random number of suits here<".
The fact that you don't see that the simple fact that you can get that much Interceptor is part of the problem beggars belief. I would kill to be able to put Interceptor on my Sentinels or Dreadnoughts.
No one is pretending that are not overwhelmingly powerful (particularly in the Riptide wing), hence why there have been 8 pages of discussion of bringing them down, without ruining them. But you are stating page 1/2 complaints at this point.
How much interceptor is an acceptable amount of interceptor? 2 interceptor units? 3? 11?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jade_angel wrote: Back toward my original point - the Riptide is not intended to be a glass cannon. Crisis Suits are the glass cannon, the Riptide is meant to be a fire soak. Almost certainly less firepower per point than a Crisis Suit, but more durability per point. Making it squishy but deadly seems to me to defeat the purpose. (The Stormsurge, OTOH, probably should be squishy but deadly. It's also OP.)
I will agree that Interceptor is part of the problem. Tau should have it, but probably not quite so profligately as now.
Who does interceptor hurt the most? Space marines and their deep-strike heavy formations. Interceptor hurts lower tiers lists significantly less, as they don't depend on deep-strike deployment. Possibly a summon spam chaos? but then its hurting "free" units, as the summoning ones aren't deep-striking in.
I think it effects lower tier lists less because orks/nids/guard dont have access to deep strike like other armies. They are forced to run at the tau gunline with gak armor saves. Its definitely a problem with the skyhammer formation for sure, but either way the riptide gets to sit in the back of the deployment zone with great survivability and long range weapons. If this is supposed to be a linebreaker unit instead of artillery maybe shorter range weapons? I mean if you cut all its gun ranges by 12" would it really be that bad? especially when all tau suits have jet packs.
Don Savik wrote: I think it effects lower tier lists less because orks/nids/guard dont have access to deep strike like other armies. They are forced to run at the tau gunline with gak armor saves. Its definitely a problem with the skyhammer formation for sure, but either way the riptide gets to sit in the back of the deployment zone with great survivability and long range weapons. If this is supposed to be a linebreaker unit instead of artillery maybe shorter range weapons? I mean if you cut all its gun ranges by 12" would it really be that bad? especially when all tau suits have jet packs.
Exactly, really 1 army (and its clones) with a hand-full of too good formations are directly countered by it. And it represents the majority of the player base. But by itself, it isn't game breaking, even at that cheap cost, because there are all the other factions that it Can't even proc on.
That is an option to consider, just shorting its range. Are you suggesting in additional to the suggestions on earlier pages, or just that one change alone? And in the ion accelerator (72" range S7 ap2/ s8 large blast gets hot/ s9 gets hot ordinance large blast) or even the heavy burst cannon (36" heavy 8 s6 ap4 or heavy 12 s6 ap4 rending gets hot)?
I believe the changes for the Ion Acclerator and HBC in the Proposed Rules forum are reasonable. The main issue, in my experience, is the ability for the Riptide to nuke units across the board with AP2 pie plates.
Verviedi wrote: I believe the changes for the Ion Acclerator and HBC in the Proposed Rules forum are reasonable. The main issue, in my experience, is the ability for the Riptide to nuke units across the board with AP2 pie plates.
That's the main problem I've had too. And now that the Stormsurge exists, I don't think the Riptide needs to be able to do that anymore. That said, I'm trying to refrain from making any kind of concrete proposal in this thread.
Realistically? The Riptide is overpowered and always has been.
Pretending that it is not is what ruins these discussions when posters like yourself bring up nonsense like "but Early Warning Override can be 5 points wasted across >insert random number of suits here<".
The fact that you don't see that the simple fact that you can get that much Interceptor is part of the problem beggars belief. I would kill to be able to put Interceptor on my Sentinels or Dreadnoughts.
No one is pretending that are not overwhelmingly powerful (particularly in the Riptide wing), hence why there have been 8 pages of discussion of bringing them down, without ruining them. But you are stating page 1/2 complaints at this point.
How much interceptor is an acceptable amount of interceptor? 2 interceptor units? 3? 11?
One or two weapons, not units. There is no such thing as an "Interceptor Unit" right now. There is no reasonable explanation for how EWO turns a whole suit into an interceptor "unit", as you put it.
What weapons should be Interceptor? I can't answer that. I would go for SMS only, personally, but that's me.
But hey what do I know, aside from the fact that there are armies out there which don't even get Interceptor in their book anymore(Guard)...
jade_angel wrote: Back toward my original point - the Riptide is not intended to be a glass cannon. Crisis Suits are the glass cannon, the Riptide is meant to be a fire soak. Almost certainly less firepower per point than a Crisis Suit, but more durability per point. Making it squishy but deadly seems to me to defeat the purpose. (The Stormsurge, OTOH, probably should be squishy but deadly. It's also OP.)
I will agree that Interceptor is part of the problem. Tau should have it, but probably not quite so profligately as now.
Who does interceptor hurt the most? Space marines and their deep-strike heavy formations. Interceptor hurts lower tiers lists significantly less, as they don't depend on deep-strike deployment. Possibly a summon spam chaos? but then its hurting "free" units, as the summoning ones aren't deep-striking in.
Interceptor hurts lower tier lists significantly less because those lower tier lists either do not have access to mass Deep Strike or alternate deployment methods or the units that can take them are not considered viable or worth their points(things like Stormboyz, for example).
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Verviedi wrote: I believe the changes for the Ion Acclerator and HBC in the Proposed Rules forum are reasonable. The main issue, in my experience, is the ability for the Riptide to nuke units across the board with AP2 pie plates.
No, it's the ability for the Riptide to be taken at obscenely low points values like it stands.
300 points, minimum, for a Riptide or a significant nerf to its T and W characteristics are necessary.
Realistically? The Riptide is overpowered and always has been.
Pretending that it is not is what ruins these discussions when posters like yourself bring up nonsense like "but Early Warning Override can be 5 points wasted across >insert random number of suits here<".
The fact that you don't see that the simple fact that you can get that much Interceptor is part of the problem beggars belief. I would kill to be able to put Interceptor on my Sentinels or Dreadnoughts.
No one is pretending that are not overwhelmingly powerful (particularly in the Riptide wing), hence why there have been 8 pages of discussion of bringing them down, without ruining them. But you are stating page 1/2 complaints at this point.
How much interceptor is an acceptable amount of interceptor? 2 interceptor units? 3? 11?
One or two weapons, not units. There is no such thing as an "Interceptor Unit" right now. There is no reasonable explanation for how EWO turns a whole suit into an interceptor "unit", as you put it.
What weapons should be Interceptor? I can't answer that. I would go for SMS only, personally, but that's me.
But hey what do I know, aside from the fact that there are armies out there which don't even get Interceptor in their book anymore(Guard)...
jade_angel wrote: Back toward my original point - the Riptide is not intended to be a glass cannon. Crisis Suits are the glass cannon, the Riptide is meant to be a fire soak. Almost certainly less firepower per point than a Crisis Suit, but more durability per point. Making it squishy but deadly seems to me to defeat the purpose. (The Stormsurge, OTOH, probably should be squishy but deadly. It's also OP.)
I will agree that Interceptor is part of the problem. Tau should have it, but probably not quite so profligately as now.
Who does interceptor hurt the most? Space marines and their deep-strike heavy formations. Interceptor hurts lower tiers lists significantly less, as they don't depend on deep-strike deployment. Possibly a summon spam chaos? but then its hurting "free" units, as the summoning ones aren't deep-striking in.
Interceptor hurts lower tier lists significantly less because those lower tier lists either do not have access to mass Deep Strike or alternate deployment methods or the units that can take them are not considered viable or worth their points(things like Stormboyz, for example).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Verviedi wrote: I believe the changes for the Ion Acclerator and HBC in the Proposed Rules forum are reasonable. The main issue, in my experience, is the ability for the Riptide to nuke units across the board with AP2 pie plates.
No, it's the ability for the Riptide to be taken at obscenely low points values like it stands.
300 points, minimum, for a Riptide or a significant nerf to its T and W characteristics are necessary.
Nobody takes storm boys, because storm boys are bad compared to its codex, in a codex that isn't that great. That they could deep strike doesn't save that no one takes them because the alternatives are better.
We addressed its survivability earlier. 3+ armor and no FNP, yes its still 5W T6, but its now over 2ce as vulnerable, and cannot ignore its nova-charge wound failure. And moved riptide wing to apoc only.
and a weapon needs a model/unit to fire. so yes interceptor units is acceptable, because a SD AP1 Assault 45 300" interceptor gun means nothing if not unit can take/interact with/use it.
Nobody takes storm boys, because storm boys are bad compared to its codex, in a codex that isn't that great. That they could deep strike doesn't save that no one takes them because the alternatives are better.
Thanks for kind of proving the point I made? Seriously. The lower tier books aren't as affected by Interceptor because, as I mentioned, they either do not have access or reasons to take those units.
We addressed its survivability earlier. 3+ armor and no FNP, yes its still 5W T6, but its now over 2ce as vulnerable, and cannot ignore its nova-charge wound failure.
T5 and 3W, at best, if we're retaining the current points cost coupled with 3+ and the access to FNP is acceptable.
Stimulant Injectors need to be an item that you have to DECLARE you are utilizing with a downside to boot. Not just "I overheated, gotta FNP". You have to declare utilizing your Stimms before you roll for the Nova Charge.
As a penalty? Subtract a point of Ballistic Skill from a unit which utilized its Stimulant Injectors and remove the ability to benefit from Pinpoint.
And moved riptide wing to apoc only.
There effectively is no more "apoc only". Simply put, Riptide Wing never should have existed as it is now given the fact that there is now the ability to field 1-3 Riptides in a single unit.
Riptide Wing can stay if it is turned into a single unit of Riptides that act independent of each other for the purposes of the formation.
and a weapon needs a model/unit to fire. so yes interceptor units is acceptable, because a SD AP1 Assault 45 300" interceptor gun means nothing if not unit can take/interact with/use it.
You don't call a unit an "Assault Unit" if it has a weapon with Assault.
Weapons are part of a unit's wargear. It isn't necessary to say that a unit needs to be classified as something in order to utilize a weapon.
Nobody takes storm boys, because storm boys are bad compared to its codex, in a codex that isn't that great. That they could deep strike doesn't save that no one takes them because the alternatives are better.
Thanks for kind of proving the point I made? Seriously. The lower tier books aren't as affected by Interceptor because, as I mentioned, they either do not have access or reasons to take those units.
We addressed its survivability earlier. 3+ armor and no FNP, yes its still 5W T6, but its now over 2ce as vulnerable, and cannot ignore its nova-charge wound failure.
T5 and 3W, at best, if we're retaining the current points cost coupled with 3+ and the access to FNP is acceptable.
Stimulant Injectors need to be an item that you have to DECLARE you are utilizing.
And moved riptide wing to apoc only.
There effectively is no more "apoc only". Simply put, Riptide Wing never should have existed as it is now given the fact that there is now the ability to field 1-3 Riptides in a single unit.
Riptide Wing can stay if it is turned into a single unit of Riptides that act independent of each other for the purposes of the formation.
and a weapon needs a model/unit to fire. so yes interceptor units is acceptable, because a SD AP1 Assault 45 300" interceptor gun means nothing if not unit can take/interact with/use it.
You don't call a unit an "Assault Unit" if it has a weapon with Assault.
Weapons are part of a unit's wargear. It isn't necessary to say that a unit needs to be classified as something in order to utilize a weapon.
Ok, combative for being combatives sake. you argue interceptor is impacting lower tier codices even more, I provide a point showing they don't, you argue that i just argued in your favor, WTF?
You do declare when you are using feel no pain, its a part of the unit characteristic by virtue of purchased upgrade. If you don't ask your opponent what he has, ok, but per BRB if you are asked about your army list you should provide it.. It prevents sneaking in upgrades/ie cheating.
I agree, the riptide wing is bad, and ruins the game. moving to apoc helps in stated games of crazy high points and titans because at apoc level tau just suffer and die.
You are over nerfing the unit by making it T5 3W, and 3+, even with FNP "allowed." making it a never take unit is trying to get revenge, please be moderate in your approach.
I agree that that is overkill. It's probably due to the fact that most Imperial heavy weapons are still basically useless vs T6 3+/5+++. That's a different problem. I really don't like the magical line from T4 to T5 where you get to not feel krak missiles and lascannons anymore with your FNP. The 5th ed rule is looking better and better to be honest.
Your suggestion to reduce the Riptide to T5 W3 with a 3+, is approaching the realm of spite-nerfing. That makes it less durable than a Ghostkeel and an Iridium Commander. All that it needs is a points boost for EWO, range reduction and removal of the Overcharge Mode for the IA, and perhaps a 10-point boost to the base model.
Martel732 wrote: No, it really needs to lose 2+ armor as well. Non grav heavy weapons are already useless against it. 2+ armor also cuts out poison and all small arms.
And only having a 3+ armour would be consistent with EVERY other 'Jet-pack' suit in the Tau codex. My OCD would appreciate that.
Verviedi wrote: T6, 3+, altered weapons, 5 wounds, EWO points boost, 10 point model boost is in the realm of fairness.
You don't need an EWO boost or a model boost with 3+ and an AP 3 non-NOVA ion accelerator. If 2+ armor can tank the ion accelerator, then premium units can deep strike but you can still counter skyhammer cheese.
pumaman1 wrote: Ok, combative for being combatives sake. you argue interceptor is impacting lower tier codices even more, I provide a point showing they don't, you argue that i just argued in your favor, WTF?
I really think you need to actually take some time and READ a post before assuming things. Go on.
I stated that lower tier codices aren't as heavily impacted by Tau spamming Interceptor because those codices either do not HAVE ACCESS TO OR A REASON TO WANT to run the kinds of things that Interceptor are for.
You do declare when you are using feel no pain, its a part of the unit characteristic by virtue of purchased upgrade. If you don't ask your opponent what he has, ok, but per BRB if you are asked about your army list you should provide it.. It prevents sneaking in upgrades/ie cheating.
Again, read what I said. My specific idea was for Stimulant Injectors to be an item you had to declare you're using, coupled with a downside as well as the benefit of FNP.
I agree, the riptide wing is bad, and ruins the game. moving to apoc helps in stated games of crazy high points and titans because at apoc level tau just suffer and die.
Realistically speaking, no. Moving anything "to apoc" does nothing, because nobody really plays Apocalypse outside of one off events every year. Riptide Wing can be fixed instantly by toning down the Riptides and making it so that it is not an easy way to field 3 units of 3 Riptides each with benefits that are ridiculous.
You are over nerfing the unit by making it T5 3W, and 3+, even with FNP "allowed." making it a never take unit is trying to get revenge, please be moderate in your approach.
Oh please. The whole argument for the Riptide to be made to a 3+ has everything to do with it getting protected from Grav. It has no business being T6. Pure and simple. None. It also has no business having as many Wounds as it does.
And if it being reduced a point of Toughness and having its Wounds halved, with no points change or weapon changes makes it a "never take unit"? Maybe it's time for Tau players who argue that it's perfectly legit to field multiple Riptides to start being honest with the reasons they take the bloody thing in the first place.
Verviedi wrote:Your suggestion to reduce the Riptide to T5 W3 with a 3+, is approaching the realm of spite-nerfing.
Riptides are broken. Pure and simple.
They need something approximating a good "spite-nerfing"(heavens forbid balancing be something that is going to be drastic!) at this juncture for such a ridiculous autotake unit to start actually being something people think about whether or not it is worth taking.
That makes it less durable than a Ghostkeel and an Iridium Commander.
The Ghostkeel's durability lies with its cover saves. An Iridium commander's durability lies with his armor save.
There is no one thing we can point at for the Riptide to adjust or mitigate. It's too powerful in all aspects. Its weapons have too long of a range and benefit from easy access to Markerlights and it has ridiculous survivability for something which is supposed to be an offensive powerhouse.
All that it needs is a points boost for EWO, range reduction and removal of the Overcharge Mode for the IA, and perhaps a 10-point boost to the base model.
EWO doesn't need a points boost. It needs to be removed as an upgrade and instead tied to specific weapons, such as the SMS. Markerlights' "Scour" ability needs to be removed from being able to benefit any non Missile Pod, HYMP, or SMS weapon. Stimulant Injector needs a downside and should require a declaration, if not a "One Use Only" tag to it.
Additionally if the Riptide is going to stay as it is now? It needs far far more than a "10 point boost" to the base model. We're talking 40-50 minimum.
What is the problem with EWO and SMS? In order to fire it via interceptor, the target must be in LOS, or it is an illegal target. Homing doesn't matter to interceptor. Or is your problem the SMS's profile? When was the last time anyone complained about Assault Cannons being standard on so many platforms? And you are complaining about a system that has less!
Martel732 wrote: No, it really needs to lose 2+ armor as well. Non grav heavy weapons are already useless against it. 2+ armor also cuts out poison and all small arms.
Or get some bodies up there and CC the dang thing. If it hasn't worked for you then you need more bodies. The most satisfying way to kill a Riptide is to run it down after CC.
carldooley wrote: What is the problem with EWO and SMS? In order to fire it via interceptor, the target must be in LOS, or it is an illegal target. Homing doesn't matter to interceptor. Or is your problem the SMS's profile? When was the last time anyone complained about Assault Cannons being standard on so many platforms? And you are complaining about a system that has less!
I was hoping someone would mention that SMS still need line of sight to intercept RAW, also statistically 12 twin-linked BS 3 SMS will only kill 8 marines per turn on average (not even one full squad), hardly enough to shut down or hard counter an army that has many units outflanking and or deep striking.
carldooley wrote: What is the problem with EWO and SMS? In order to fire it via interceptor, the target must be in LOS, or it is an illegal target. Homing doesn't matter to interceptor.
Tell that to literally any Tau player then. The argument is always and always will be "Homing overrides the standard rules".
Or is your problem the SMS's profile?
My "problem" is the combination of cheap EWO, Tau players' insistence upon the ability for SMS to Intercept regardless of LOS, and the fact that not only does the ability get to ignore standard LOS restrictions it then gets to add in Ignores Cover to boot.
When was the last time anyone complained about Assault Cannons being standard on so many platforms?
How many things are Assault Cannons standard on?
Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts have to pay 10pts to equip an AC, Land Speeders pay 20 pts for it(Land Speeder Storms pay 15 pts for some reason), and Terminator Squads pay 20 points to equip 1 in 5 models with an AC. Razorbacks pay 20 points for a TLAC
And you are complaining about a system that has less!
There are, at the moment, four items with Assault Cannons as their "standard profiles" and not as pointed upgrades.
Stormtalon Gunship, Stormraven's upper turret, the Stormhawk Interceptor in its chin mount and the Land Raider Crusader.
Kanluwen wrote: There are, at the moment, four items with Assault Cannons as their "standard profiles" and not as pointed upgrades.
Stormtalon Gunship, Stormraven's upper turret, the Stormhawk Interceptor in its chin mount and the Land Raider Crusader.
I was actually thinking of the damage output. SMS has 4 Str5 AP5 shots Ignore Cover. Assault Cannons have 4 Str6 AP4 Rending. I was initially thinking of using the Heavy Bolter as a better analogue, 3 Str5 AP4 but the 4 shot AC was a better comparison IMO.
pumaman1 wrote: For me, giving it a walker profile is an instant no. Walker is largely an IoM tax in my mind for having 1/2 the playable models in the game as battle brothers.
Stimulant injectors, take them. I'd rather FNP be removed entirely from the game, or be properly categorized as a save (because it blatantly is one).
Armor 3+ I would accept it with no other changes than those above.
Hi I am the Ork Faction, Have we met? I have Killa Kanz Deff Dreadz, Morkanaut, Gorkanaut and Stompa all in my Codex. What was that I heard you say about Walkers being IoM Tax?
Martel732 wrote: No, it really needs to lose 2+ armor as well. Non grav heavy weapons are already useless against it. 2+ armor also cuts out poison and all small arms.
Or get some bodies up there and CC the dang thing. If it hasn't worked for you then you need more bodies. The most satisfying way to kill a Riptide is to run it down after CC.
Unfortunately none of those are reliable methods of dealing with it as it is currently implemeted. Plasma, melta and lascannons all lack the rate of fire to threaten riptide. 2+ armor and t6 make it immune to most cc.
Insectum7 wrote: Unfortunately none of those are reliable methods of dealing with it as it is currently implemeted. Plasma, melta and lascannons all lack the rate of fire to threaten riptide. 2+ armor and t6 make it immune to most cc.
How many people have killed T6 MCs with lasguns? I HAVE! you want to be able to one shot a riptide? try a psilencer. 'Oh no, it is a str4 gun. . .' To which I say, 'ROF!'
carldooley wrote: How many people have killed T6 MCs with lasguns? I HAVE!
Me, me! I've done that thing!
That being said, you're gonna need a lot of Lasguns, and an Order or two. I've always delivered on the promise of putting on a good light show with my Guard army though
This is, however, the problem I have with the Riptide being an MC. Sure, perhaps it isn't a good idea to make it a Walker, but while it makes sense that a Carnifex will eventually collapse under the massive weight of a hail of Lasgun shots, a Riptide - not so much. That armour's gotta be less justified than a Stormtrooper's Plastoid body armour; meant to stop any ballistic projectile, can't stop a piece of wood with a sharpened stone on the end
Let's assume that the Riptide shoots at a Dreadknight, and used his Nova Charge for the 4d6 Jet Pack move to get further away. Our unlucky Tau player, though, rolls a 6 for his Jet Pack move, and the Dreadknight strolls on up to him, then charges him.
With 5 attacks on the charge, our Dreadknight hits 10/3 of the time.
He wounds 50/18 of the time.
The Riptide (with only a 5+ Invuln) saves 50/54 of the wounds, leaving 100/54 going through.
But his FNP roll saves another third (100/162) letting 200/162 go through. Simplify that down, and you get 100/81.
Add in Hammer of Wrath (one hit, wounding on a 4, with a 2+/5+) and you get ([1/2]*[1/6]*[2/3]=1/18) and you get just under 1.3 wounds.
This means that, on the charge, a Dreadknight, the single best unit in Codex: Grey Knights... Does one wound to a Riptide. And that drops to around a 2/3rds chance of wounding if the Riptide has his 3+ Invuln.
If it was T5, though, even with a 3+ Invuln, the Dreadknight will most likely wound at least once, and that's enough to kill it, since it's doubled out.
Unfortunately none of those are reliable methods of dealing with it as it is currently implemeted. Plasma, melta and lascannons all lack the rate of fire to threaten riptide. 2+ armor and t6 make it immune to most cc.
Note how I repeated each weapon system multiple times. MOAR is the answer.
In CC just bring a Powerfist or Meltabombs. Or nerf the Riptide/buff your guys with Psychic powers. Speaking of which, given the new SM Psychic powers you really have some killer tools for attacking Tau. Turn 1 charges are crazy doable with Electrodisplacement. In fact I'd say that power is practically game-breaking against Tau.
JNAProductions wrote: I think that the Riptide should be T5.
. . .
If it was T5, though, even with a 3+ Invuln, the Dreadknight will most likely wound at least once, and that's enough to kill it, since it's doubled out.
Nobody has problems with multiple TMCs with T6 though. I think that's a re herring.
But if you really wanted to ID it you could try going for Enfeeble and knock it down to T 5.
Let's assume that the Riptide shoots at a Dreadknight, and used his Nova Charge for the 4d6 Jet Pack move to get further away. Our unlucky Tau player, though, rolls a 6 for his Jet Pack move, and the Dreadknight strolls on up to him, then charges him.
With 5 attacks on the charge, our Dreadknight hits 10/3 of the time.
He wounds 50/18 of the time.
The Riptide (with only a 5+ Invuln) saves 50/54 of the wounds, leaving 100/54 going through.
But his FNP roll saves another third (100/162) letting 200/162 go through. Simplify that down, and you get 100/81.
Add in Hammer of Wrath (one hit, wounding on a 4, with a 2+/5+) and you get ([1/2]*[1/6]*[2/3]=1/18) and you get just under 1.3 wounds.
This means that, on the charge, a Dreadknight, the single best unit in Codex: Grey Knights... Does one wound to a Riptide. And that drops to around a 2/3rds chance of wounding if the Riptide has his 3+ Invuln.
If it was T5, though, even with a 3+ Invuln, the Dreadknight will most likely wound at least once, and that's enough to kill it, since it's doubled out.
why no force weapon? that single wound kills it, and fnp cannot be used against force weapons.
my info may be out of date, but both sword and hammer are force weapons, and the sword allows you to reroll all hits and to wound rolls? And the gatling psilencer gives you a ranged force option?
Unfortunately none of those are reliable methods of dealing with it as it is currently implemeted. Plasma, melta and lascannons all lack the rate of fire to threaten riptide. 2+ armor and t6 make it immune to most cc.
Note how I repeated each weapon system multiple times. MOAR is the answer.
In CC just bring a Powerfist or Meltabombs. Or nerf the Riptide/buff your guys with Psychic powers. Speaking of which, given the new SM Psychic powers you really have some killer tools for attacking Tau. Turn 1 charges are crazy doable with Electrodisplacement. In fact I'd say that power is practically game-breaking against Tau.
JNAProductions wrote: I think that the Riptide should be T5.
. . .
If it was T5, though, even with a 3+ Invuln, the Dreadknight will most likely wound at least once, and that's enough to kill it, since it's doubled out.
Nobody has problems with multiple TMCs with T6 though. I think that's a re herring.
But if you really wanted to ID it you could try going for Enfeeble and knock it down to T 5.
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
Martel732 wrote: No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
a psychic power that cannot be relied upon. . . like force? A ML1 power that you don't need to roll for, that can instagib any creature in our army with the exception of the stormsurge? . . . and all the psykers in your army? what do you play, GK? . . . where you know, EVERYTHING is a psyker in your army?
Or guard, where my priority would likely be your artillery?
Or Space Marines where my priority would be your Grav or suicide drop pods?
Or Tyranids, where. . . okay, I'm going to do my best to kill your psykers because thayare your AT.
Force weapons won't get anywhere close to Tau. They'll be shot dead long before they are a threat. The beauty of Tau is that they can massacre several priority targets a turn. Because shooting is their schtick.
The psychic power is was referring to was electrodisplacement, not force. But force is unreliable because assault is really hard in 7th ed.
Okay a question, one that I am well aware that I'm not supposed to ask on these forums:
What are the current rules, of the GK Psilencer and Gatling Psilencer? what is their strength, AP, ROF and special rules?
I was going to say that the usual Argument has been a GK Dreadknight, using the teleport move to get into beatstick range of a riptide. To my understanding, the psilencer is a ranged force weapon; meaning that the dreadknight slash teleport squad carrying them doesn't need to get into CC to gib a tide.
My understanding of the Gatling Psilencer was a Heavy12 Str 4, AP- 18" weapon, with force. that means that it has a 1/3 chance to kill a riptide a turn. . . before it has a chance to fire, or overwatch, or anything else. Is my understanding out of date?
Seems to be an awful lot of numbers flying around here.
40k being the massive game of chance it is, I personally think these maths stats aren't going to give you an accurate measure of anything about the Riptide's durability. What is more important to consider is how the Riptide synergises with other Tau units, and how it fairs against weapons classed as being "good" at killing MC's, sans the fancy mathematics.
This isn't directed at any individual here, but we seem to be going round in circles, with very little being agreed on.
40k being the massive game of chance it is, I personally think these maths stats aren't going to give you an accurate measure of anything about the Riptide's durability. What is more important to consider is how the Riptide synergises with other Tau units, and how it fairs against weapons classed as being "good" at killing MC's, sans the fancy mathematics.
This isn't directed at any individual here, but we seem to be going round in circles, with very little being agreed on.
G.A
Unless this thread is being monitored by someone who can actually change the next codex or can force a statline change in large formats like the ITC, this is all spitballed wishlisting anyway. If someone is listening, I like
My issue here is that people want to turn it into a walker, which would make it immune to their faction's basic weaponry, but would allow it to be one-shotted. now I have killed mcs with lasguns, but not as it sounded in the above posts. 'OMG, it is still standing, what am I going to do? Oh it has one wound left . . . LASGUNS!' (i hate caps lock)
Unless this thread is being monitored by someone who can actually change the next codex or can force a statline change in large formats like the ITC, this is all spitballed wishlisting anyway
I guess you could say that for a lot of rules threads here. They serve more to prove a point than to actually change anything. Make of that what you will.
Either way, I feel like my usefulness in this thread has expired, since we mostly agree on what the Riptide is meant to be, and are now discussing potential rule fixes.
carldooley wrote: My issue is that a point increase would have been an acceptable thing to do when the new Codex dropped. But GW didn't bother to do so.
Yeah, but they made no changes to grav so there's no point in meeting the Riptide until grav is sorted out
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
1. People hate Invisibility because it's reliable enough to make a difference.
2. Are you standing your psykers in the open without a bodyguard? Because I can protect at least some of my units when I deploy.
3. If you're just choosing not to use the toolkit GW gives you (for the sake of argument) to solve your Riptide problem, I can't sypathize.
I'm seeing Electrodisplacement as a guaranteed first turn charge into at least some section of the Tau lines. Drop Pod in with multiple, cheap squads right in front of those units you want to charge. After taking hits from Interceptor, swap any remaining unit with a nasty combination of CC stuff in your backfield, then assault and wreck face. Our old favorites, Assault Terminators would work wonders here, or make it a Bike unit to get the full Charge distance through Difficult Terrain, or a Jump unit that didn't use it's Packs in the Movement Phase to allow a re-roll of Charge distance.
carldooley wrote: My issue is that a point increase would have been an acceptable thing to do when the new Codex dropped. But GW didn't bother to do so.
Most of the releases this past year have been adding new things and formations/Relics, not fixing things.
Purportedly the GW Design Studio has acknowledged that 7th has a limited shelf life now and is working on 8th.
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
1. People hate Invisibility because it's reliable enough to make a difference.
True, people hate invisibility because it's extremely tilting, has only one counter (oddly enough, in the Tau), and those who build armies around it roll enough on the table that they are pretty close to guaranteed to take it. You usually only need 1-2 guys with it, since it goes on a deathstar.
It's nerfed in most tournaments though.
2. Are you standing your psykers in the open without a bodyguard? Because I can protect at least some of my units when I deploy.
It's extremely difficult to protect 1-2 units from the Tau. Most people aren't spamming force weapons in standard lists, so I wouldn't expect more than 2 unless its GK.
If every unit could have a force weapon on a decent carrier (So not 1k sons ) MC's wouldn't seen as imbalanced. Sadly, this is not the case.
If the Tau look and say "only grav/bikes/psykers are a threat" they will destroy those units. So you either spam them and make a skew yourself, or lose. You can't take two normal bike squads and expect them to survive tau shooting, for example.
3. If you're just choosing not to use the toolkit GW gives you (for the sake of argument) to solve your Riptide problem, I can't sypathize.
What exactly is the toolkit outside of grav? Force weapons are extremely expensive and fragile. Plasma must be taken in insanely high numbers to kill a riptide, and outside of combi weapons, can't be spammed in most lists (1-2 per unit, plus combi at most is pretty standard).
To give you an idea, plasma is the following;
3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 3++ save, 5+ FnP -> 2/3*2/3*1/3*2/3= 8/81. So 5 plasma guns for 1 wound, assuming rapid fire, 25 plasma guns to kill one on average (roughly, odds are slightly against you). 25 plasma guns is 8 tactical squads, and 3 full sternguard with combi and drop pods. That's...that's so many points. Many tau take 2-3 units of them as well.
It's just not an effective tool. Most melee weapons are in a similar boat, except wounding is much worse, save can be worse (yay 2+!), but there are more attacks. Luckily the Tide can run.
The Tides have extremely few counters. It's why they are so popular, and they tilt the meta heavily to deal with them.
I'm seeing Electrodisplacement as a guaranteed first turn charge into at least some section of the Tau lines. Drop Pod in with multiple, cheap squads right in front of those units you want to charge.
I play Tau and Marines, among other armies. It's quite easy to bubble wrap 3 riptides with the other basic infantry, making it so you have to mulch through several squads before getting to charge the tides.
Even if they don't bubble wrap to the extent that you can't deploy close enough, tides are fast. Much faster than the vast majority of units that can be deployed in pods. It's very rare for me to get my tide caught by anything but bikes, tbh. And unless you took 3 squads of stern guard per tide, or 8 squads of infantry per tide, you won't be killing one. And they work the same on 2 wounds as they do on 5, unlike tanks. Maybe not one wound (wouldn't risk Nova there, imo).
After taking hits from Interceptor, swap any remaining unit with a nasty combination of CC stuff in your backfield, then assault and wreck face.
My backfield isn't going to get there by turn 2 unless its bikes. The tide has no target priority here, they just kill stuff as it moves up. Moving in waves is the worst way to fight the tau, you need to hit them all at once at multiple points and overwhelm their RoF. Everything must be charging the same turn, or it'll die turn by turn.
Our old favorites, Assault Terminators would work wonders here,
Assault termies will never ever reach a Tide unless you've made mistakes. Massive mistakes. Assault terminators are hot garbage and shouldn't be a serious consideration for any force, imo.
or make it a Bike unit to get the full Charge distance through Difficult Terrain, or a Jump unit that didn't use it's Packs in the Movement Phase to allow a re-roll of Charge distance.
Jump units are, for the most part, overpriced garbage. You could possibly build a jump unit that could tie up a tide, but it'll be relatively frail and die to simple guns from the warriors since they just aren't cost effective. If chaos isn't running raptors, there is NO reason for Marines to run jump units.
Bikes are good, you can add them to the toolkit. They usually take grav or are a deathstar, so work well against Tau and the tides. Hardly leads to a large toolkit, and those options are often considered quite OP.
To be fair, other armies have more options. Wraiths are very fast and a small unit will tie up the tide pretty effectively, even if they don't kill it. Eldar have a ton of options to do decent damage quickly, and have the WK as a counter. GK have some options though they lose points quickly to the firepower. Mech can drop in effectively and remove...kinda.
But most armies just roll over to 3 tides. It's not even a combo like a deathstar, its just drop 3 tides and roll your way to victory.
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
1. People hate Invisibility because it's reliable enough to make a difference.
2. Are you standing your psykers in the open without a bodyguard? Because I can protect at least some of my units when I deploy.
3. If you're just choosing not to use the toolkit GW gives you (for the sake of argument) to solve your Riptide problem, I can't sypathize.
I'm seeing Electrodisplacement as a guaranteed first turn charge into at least some section of the Tau lines. Drop Pod in with multiple, cheap squads right in front of those units you want to charge. After taking hits from Interceptor, swap any remaining unit with a nasty combination of CC stuff in your backfield, then assault and wreck face. Our old favorites, Assault Terminators would work wonders here, or make it a Bike unit to get the full Charge distance through Difficult Terrain, or a Jump unit that didn't use it's Packs in the Movement Phase to allow a re-roll of Charge distance.
There is no way to guarantee electrodisplacement like invis. I think the above post covers my thoughts.
Akiasura wrote: things that didn't really acknowledge the tactic I was advocating
I think you misread what I was suggesting there.
Electrodisplacement allows a psyker to exchange his (and his units) position, with another frendly unit within 24", and then charge. Drop Podding unit lands next to Tau positions, and takes interceptor. Then in the Psychic phase that unit exchanges it's position with say, some Assault Marines with attached Librarian (whose casting the power) and a Captain/whatever with a Thunder Hammer. So in the Assault Phase, first turn, the Assault Marines+Captain+Librarian are charging the Tau lines.
Nobody's stuck hanging around in the backfield except the Drop Podded squad that got swapped out for positioning. This is a brad new way to get those Assault Terminators across the field, and you're not relying on Force Weapons to do your work, your looking at ye 'olde Powerfists or whatever you want to bring. Terminators bring a ton of attacks, but other units have the option of Sweeping the 'tides.
Range of power is 24", but since the movement phase happens first, your'e looking for a 30" range for most units from the beginning of the turn. Jump and Bikes 36", THEN assault. Doctrines make this good for attached Characters, since they can take advantage of the squad they're with, and re-roll attacks for example. Even throwing a Tactical Squad into CC with elements of a Tau army is starting to get you somewhere. Even if you aren't killing them outright, CC means they aren't firing.
Right, those Terminators with Power Fists? Deal an average of ([2/3]*[5/6]*[2/3]*[2/3]=40/162=20/81) just under a quarter of a wound per attack. (Assuming a 5+ Invuln, not a 3+.) So you need 7 Terminators to, on average, kill a Riptide on the charge. Assuming, you know, the Riptide doesn't kill anyone on Overwatch or at the I2 step.
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
What is this Martel - psykers are unreliable and not the answer to everything? But what do you say to every Guard player? "You dont have it hard, just bring a blob with invisibility primaris psykers"? "Psykers are really good, use them more"? "Your just refusing to adapt, psykers are really good"? Etc.
Long story short Martel, your happy to claim one thing, but when push comes to shove you will change your tune rapidly.
Insectum7 wrote: The Codex Astartes teaches us that simply wishing for your enemies to die is far less effective than making the most of what you have at hand.
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
What is this Martel - psykers are unreliable and not the answer to everything? But what do you say to every Guard player? "You dont have it hard, just bring a blob with invisibility primaris psykers"? "Psykers are really good, use them more"? "Your just refusing to adapt, psykers are really good"? Etc.
Long story short Martel, your happy to claim one thing, but when push comes to shove you will change your tune rapidly.
Marines get far less utility out of their psykers than IG do because they can't hit nearly as many models as once. Plus, the IG can make use of most divination powers, whereas this guy is talking about buying multiple libbies to fish for electrodisplacement specifically. Any libbies that don't roll it are basically wasted points, whereas a primaris divination psyker at least has prescience.
Also, IG have way more bodies to shield their psykers with from ion accelerators. LoS is not nearly as useful for marines, as we are still losing a marine at least.
When push comes to shove, every situation is different, and I'm not changing my tune at all.
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Insectum7 wrote: The Codex Astartes teaches us that simply wishing for your enemies to die is far less effective than making the most of what you have at hand.
BA have no effective tools. Still. Because GW says so. And the Codex is a steaming pile of gak. BA have no viable deathstars, and that's basically game set match vs Tau.
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
What is this Martel - psykers are unreliable and not the answer to everything? But what do you say to every Guard player? "You dont have it hard, just bring a blob with invisibility primaris psykers"? "Psykers are really good, use them more"? "Your just refusing to adapt, psykers are really good"? Etc. Long story short Martel, your happy to claim one thing, but when push comes to shove you will change your tune rapidly.
Marines get far less utility out of their psykers than IG do because they can't hit nearly as many models as once. Plus, the IG can make use of most divination powers, whereas this guy is talking about buying multiple libbies to fish for electrodisplacement specifically. Any libbies that don't roll it are basically wasted points, whereas a primaris divination psyker at least has prescience.
Also, IG have way more bodies to shield their psykers with from ion accelerators. LoS is not nearly as useful for marines, as we are still losing a marine at least.
When push comes to shove, every situation is different, and I'm not changing my tune at all.
This is just completely wrong. It doesn't matter how many models you buff with a power, its about how effective it is. Buffs are force multipliers and on IG units it doesn't matter because IG are still bad and paper. You buff an already good a durable SM unit like Cents or Thunderwolves and you made that unit exponentially more powerful. It not even hard to get psychic powers you want in SM because you can take Severin Loth (who just picks what ever powers he wants) or Tigerius (who rerolls the powers he gets so has a 75% chance. Plus taking multiple psykers works for getting powers you want statistically because it compounds. A single lvl 3 Psyker may only have a 50% chance, but 3 of them give you an 87.5% chance of getting at least one of the specific power you want. Also who cares about having more bodies to LoS to if the unit your psyker is in is invicible and doesn't take wounds anyway?
I mean look at the meta. SM has compettive psyker deathstars (Thunderwolves, Centstar, Super Friends), IG have none. That should tell you upfront that you are wrong.
Okay substitute marines with "BA" then. However, you are speaking of very SPECIFIC combinations. In general, the more models you can hit with a buff, the better it is. Giving a 50 man guard squad a 4+ invuln save means a lot more than giving 5 marines a 4+invlun save. I don't see how that is debateable. Giving BS 3 models a reroll to hit is a percentage bigger jump in hits than giving it to BS 4.
BA can't make their units invincible to Tau. Not even close. That's why BA can't even entertain spamming psykers as a solution.
We all know what SW and superfriends death stars are all about. I'm talking about the rest of the field vs Tau.
No one should be afraid of psychic powers that can't be relied upon. Besides, the Tau will just murder all my psykers turn 1 with their crazy firepower.
What is this Martel - psykers are unreliable and not the answer to everything? But what do you say to every Guard player? "You dont have it hard, just bring a blob with invisibility primaris psykers"? "Psykers are really good, use them more"? "Your just refusing to adapt, psykers are really good"? Etc.
Long story short Martel, your happy to claim one thing, but when push comes to shove you will change your tune rapidly.
Marines get far less utility out of their psykers than IG do because they can't hit nearly as many models as once. Plus, the IG can make use of most divination powers, whereas this guy is talking about buying multiple libbies to fish for electrodisplacement specifically. Any libbies that don't roll it are basically wasted points, whereas a primaris divination psyker at least has prescience.
Also, IG have way more bodies to shield their psykers with from ion accelerators. LoS is not nearly as useful for marines, as we are still losing a marine at least.
When push comes to shove, every situation is different, and I'm not changing my tune at all.
I... I dont even.... How..... More bodies? You are joking right? We can only ever affect one section with a power at any one time, you do know that right? So we can only cover as many models as a Marine player can with - whats that? Oh, your talking about blobs. Yes, those. The infantry blob that no one uses because it is so utterly, terribly bad that unless you get every single one of the three/four different powers you need at the start of the game and you manage to cast all of them every turn. Fail to get even one off and your blob will either vanish faster than a Snowman in hell, or it will be reduced to an even lower level of laughable damage output.
Of course, even if you do get all those powers off you still have the main issue that is the Lasgun. 45 of your 50 men are armed with a flashlight and the other 5 are armed with an even weaker penlight, so your actual damage output will be largely neglible and if your opponent has a vehicle they can effectively neuter your blob and you can do nothing in response.
Of course, the answer is to get some special/heavy weapons in there. So, we now have 5 Plasma Guns for another 75 points, and 5 Autocannons for another 50 points. So your blob now has a choice, either move and lose a big portion of its firepower or shoot and fail to advance. Your Plasma gunners are wonderful, baring the fact that an average of two will kill themselves on the first volley, and an average of one will die with every subsequent volley. Oh, and they are still BS 3, so have fun hitting things.
So, your vast bolb with its:
5 Autocannons
5 Plasma Guns
5 Laspistols
25 Lasguns
plus two ML 2 psykers
now totals 580 points. It cannot split its shots, it has to focus all of its firepower on to one target, if it is chargd it will die and its morale is terrible. It is finally ready to take to the battlefield. Good luck, because if you fail to get even one of those psychic powers off then your massive and insanely expensive blob is dead.
Oh, and PS, you cannot deal with heavy armour at all or deal with medium (AV 12) armour reliably. And every time you fire you lose 25 points (50 on the first volley) worth of models as a Plasma Gunner kills himself.
Marines get just as much utility from the psychic powers, infact they get more as they can reliably take small arms fire and so any buffs (especially defensive ones) are even more effective.
As for having more bodies, well not really. Our units die far faster than Marines, so those extra bodies account for nothing and our Psykers are instagibbed by anything of S6 or above. Oh, and they have inferior stats to a libby and a laughable save that might as well not exist, but only cost 10 points less.
Electrodisplacement allows a psyker to exchange his (and his units) position, with another frendly unit within 24", and then charge. Drop Podding unit lands next to Tau positions, and takes interceptor. Then in the Psychic phase that unit exchanges it's position with say, some Assault Marines with attached Librarian (whose casting the power) and a Captain/whatever with a Thunder Hammer. So in the Assault Phase, first turn, the Assault Marines+Captain+Librarian are charging the Tau lines.
There are several problems with this strategy, which I did mention.
1) Tides tend to be bubble wrapped in troops. You must likely won't get to charge the Tides on turn one unless your opponent deploys poorly, and will be stuck charging the troops. There are only a few outcomes to his;
a) you wipe the squad due to superior combat profiles and are open in the next turn for the tide to fire on.
b) you suffer so many overwatch casualties that you don't wipe the squad and are stuck in CC next turn. This is optimal, but you most likely won't be strong enough to take on the tide any longer, or the tide can just move away. It is extremely fast.
2) Tau have the ability to overwatch in herds. One unit charging in turn 1, like you're suggesting, will eat a metric ton of overwatch since there is zero reason to save it.
Nobody's stuck hanging around in the backfield except the Drop Podded squad that got swapped out for positioning. This is a brad new way to get those Assault Terminators across the field, and you're not relying on Force Weapons to do your work, your looking at ye 'olde Powerfists or whatever you want to bring. Terminators bring a ton of attacks, but other units have the option of Sweeping the 'tides.
As noted, the assault terminators are not as easy to bring into CC as you make it out to be. It'll be rare for a unit to be that close to the tides, especially if your opponent is aware of the strategy you're attempting to use.
Second, while PFs do work on a tide, providing they can catch them (and even then it's 2/3*5/6*2/3*2/3 5++ save for 40/162, so every two terminators is roughly a wound w/o charging. This is best case, worst case is 2/3*5/6*1/3*2/3 for 20/162, and now you aren't doing much, needing 4 terminators just to wound one time without charging), the regular attacks don't. A regular marine charging will be doing 2/3*1/6*1/6*2/3=nothing at all. You're relying on the leaders to do this, so you can really only do this with 1-2 squads at most, and it's a very expensive trick.
Let's look at cost;
You mention leader and psyker, that's easily in the 200-250 point range depending on loadout. SCs will run more and the more CC you make the leader the worse it gets. A chaplain helps but only with termis or if you're going for the psyker to get his power off. Then you have the accompanying squad with Pf at least, for roughly 150-200 points. Then you have the squad who is teleported back + pod, which I assume no upgrades, for 90+35. This is a running total of 200+150+125 for 475, or nearly 500 points, and it may not work (you may not reach the Tides, you may get overwatched, you may not roll the power).
Worst part? You can only do it once or twice, and many lists take 3 tides.
This is not an effective counter. You are better off by far utilizing grav spam. I play Tau and Marines, I would never use this and wouldn't be overly intimidated by it. 1 squad in my face turn 1 is not scary...a lot of my troops now have something to shoot at in rapid fire range.
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The Ta'unar drew oceans of tears despite not being all that good since overpowered Grav counters it. The weapon ruining the game more than anything.
Let's hear it:
