master of ordinance wrote: Either way, the 225 points of Orks could not even stop the Riptide for more than a single turn.
I think you're wrong. If the Riptide is truly undercosted, the 5 extra points for the megaknobs in battlewagon shouldn't matter because apparently the Riptide is undercosted and should be worth more than 225 points?
Well a Riptide fully loaded is 225, a unit of Meganobz and a Battlewagon transport clocks in at 230 naked and around 255 with the usual upgrades. Secondly, That unit will be traveling 12 inches every turn and not firing and using flat out to move an extra 6, it still won't reach the riptide for 2 full turns. On Turn 1 the riptide will be in range to hit it with 4 S5 missiles into its rear armor, glancing on 5s pens on 6. It will get a minimum of 2 full turns of this. When the MA Nobz finally get close enough (if they get that far) to charge they will face Overwatch against a plethora of other Tau units. Lets say by some miracle they whether that storm of fire and suffer zero wounds (something I have yet to be able to do mind you) in CC the Riptide strikes first at Initiative 2 with 3 attacks hitting on 4s, 50/50 2 will hit those 2 will wound (wounding on 2s) and 1 Nob is dead before it gets to swing. When they swing back I have 8(12) 2/3rds of which will hit, so 6 (8), those will mostly wound 5 (7) because of S9. Against a 3++ and 5+++ that equals out to about 1-2 wounds. So worst case scenario the Riptide will be losing CC by 2 and testing at LD7 or more likely at LD8 but very easily he won that CC because MC's means he swings at AP2 at initiative. Fun stuff math isn't it?
So many different scenarios could play out in that math above, but for the most part I gave the Tau player the gakky end of the stick and it still ended up winning or at the very least surviving to fight a 2nd round of combat.
The comment about the smart missiles summarizes the problem with this thread. Lots of mis perception, which is unfortunate because it shows that some of the comments here are being fueled by gaming experiences where the rules are not being followed or not understood.
Also, you got the average wrong on the riptide attacks, it would go something like this against megaknobs:
3 attacks X .5 = 1.5 hits X .83 to wound = 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. That's a lot closer to 1 than it is to 2. So on average, it kills a megaknob every two turns. And the Mega knobs can generate enough wounds to best the Riptide in combat for two rounds, for sure, even after suffering 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. Morale checks do matter as a fallback with the riptide is at it'scan go off it's own table edge is game over. So Megaknobs can win this and for comparable points.
In addition you mention the 'plethora of other Tau units". That's interesting because when we add in other Tau units, we are then talking about armies and codexes as being issues rather than just one unit, as you suggest with the Overwatch. Whole different issue.
I will give you the SMS not hitting rear armor, I apparently play against a lot of Tau players who cheat. Regardless, you are still comparing MORE points of orks versus 1 single Riptide. More often then not though, Meganobz are using Trukkz to transport themselves across the table because BWs are just not worth the investment. 110pts for a AV14/12/10vehicle that has ZERO weapons or special rules beyond the ability to transport 22 models.
I won't get involved in to much more theory hammer but I will leave you with this. If the Ork player doesn't bring Meganobz in a Battlewagon we have zero answers for a Riptide not even talking about a riptide wing. Everything else we own is either to slow or to weak to do much to this thing, the best we could theoretically do is swamp it in bodies but that really never works when Tau can delete most of our army before the end of turn 2. Riptides need a nerf, I am sorry you feel you would never again win a game without your cheese but that is the case.
A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike.
I read this quite often. I admit that for some unit could make thematically sense (say, Warp Talons flying out of the warp, or Vanguard Vets because yes).
Nonetheless, I find it a disturbing trend. Is like with thunderwolves and some khorne: they are the few units people use for assaults because the game is so shooty and the use of transports for assault so nerfed that one has to resort to point-and-click units. Killing diversity in the process. How many Howling Banshees do you people face?
What about instead, you know, go back to an acceptable scale of the game in unit size, resilience of big monsters, and overall rate of fire?
XV104 Riptide - 205ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 3+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever.
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 205pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle: free
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 5pts
May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex, but Stimulant Injector increases to 65 points)
Heavy Burst Cannon: R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 8 --OR-- R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Nova-Charge
Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: R30 S7 AP4, Heavy 5
R30 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.
Riptide Shield Generator: A model with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 5+ invulnerable save.
Nova Reactor: At the beginning of the Movement Phase, a model with a Nova Reactor may choose to roll 1d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, it suffers a wound that ignores all saves. Feel No Pain may be used normally. On a roll of a 3 or higher, the model may select exactly one benefit from the choices below, which shall last until the beginning of the controlling player's next movement phase.
Primary Weapon: The model may use the Nova-Charge profiles for its primary weapons
Ripple Fire: The model may fire its secondary weapon twice, counting as a single weapon for all purposes
Quick Escape: When making a Thrust Move, the model rolls 4d6 instead of the normal 2d6.
Additionally, DELETE the Riptide Wing formation and immediately and forever ban any formations or effects that would replicate its effects.
See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.
A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.
Assault from deepstrike is actually much better vs Eldar than Tau. The only real defense vs Tau is being extremely resilient to damage.
XV104 Riptide - 205ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 3+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever.
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 205pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle: free
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 5pts
May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex, but Stimulant Injector increases to 65 points)
Heavy Burst Cannon: R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 8 --OR-- R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Nova-Charge
Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: R30 S7 AP4, Heavy 5
R30 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.
Riptide Shield Generator: A model with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 5+ invulnerable save.
Nova Reactor: At the beginning of the Movement Phase, a model with a Nova Reactor may choose to roll 1d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, it suffers a wound that ignores all saves. Feel No Pain may be used normally. On a roll of a 3 or higher, the model may select exactly one benefit from the choices below, which shall last until the beginning of the controlling player's next movement phase.
Primary Weapon: The model may use the Nova-Charge profiles for its primary weapons
Ripple Fire: The model may fire its secondary weapon twice, counting as a single weapon for all purposes
Quick Escape: When making a Thrust Move, the model rolls 4d6 instead of the normal 2d6.
Additionally, DELETE the Riptide Wing formation and immediately and forever ban any formations or effects that would replicate its effects.
See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.
A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.
Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".
master of ordinance wrote: Either way, the 225 points of Orks could not even stop the Riptide for more than a single turn.
I think you're wrong. If the Riptide is truly undercosted, the 5 extra points for the megaknobs in battlewagon shouldn't matter because apparently the Riptide is undercosted and should be worth more than 225 points?
Well a Riptide fully loaded is 225, a unit of Meganobz and a Battlewagon transport clocks in at 230 naked and around 255 with the usual upgrades. Secondly, That unit will be traveling 12 inches every turn and not firing and using flat out to move an extra 6, it still won't reach the riptide for 2 full turns. On Turn 1 the riptide will be in range to hit it with 4 S5 missiles into its rear armor, glancing on 5s pens on 6. It will get a minimum of 2 full turns of this. When the MA Nobz finally get close enough (if they get that far) to charge they will face Overwatch against a plethora of other Tau units. Lets say by some miracle they whether that storm of fire and suffer zero wounds (something I have yet to be able to do mind you) in CC the Riptide strikes first at Initiative 2 with 3 attacks hitting on 4s, 50/50 2 will hit those 2 will wound (wounding on 2s) and 1 Nob is dead before it gets to swing. When they swing back I have 8(12) 2/3rds of which will hit, so 6 (8), those will mostly wound 5 (7) because of S9. Against a 3++ and 5+++ that equals out to about 1-2 wounds. So worst case scenario the Riptide will be losing CC by 2 and testing at LD7 or more likely at LD8 but very easily he won that CC because MC's means he swings at AP2 at initiative. Fun stuff math isn't it?
So many different scenarios could play out in that math above, but for the most part I gave the Tau player the gakky end of the stick and it still ended up winning or at the very least surviving to fight a 2nd round of combat.
The comment about the smart missiles summarizes the problem with this thread. Lots of mis perception, which is unfortunate because it shows that some of the comments here are being fueled by gaming experiences where the rules are not being followed or not understood.
Also, you got the average wrong on the riptide attacks, it would go something like this against megaknobs:
3 attacks X .5 = 1.5 hits X .83 to wound = 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. That's a lot closer to 1 than it is to 2. So on average, it kills a megaknob every two turns. And the Mega knobs can generate enough wounds to best the Riptide in combat for two rounds, for sure, even after suffering 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. Morale checks do matter as a fallback with the riptide is at it'scan go off it's own table edge is game over. So Megaknobs can win this and for comparable points.
In addition you mention the 'plethora of other Tau units". That's interesting because when we add in other Tau units, we are then talking about armies and codexes as being issues rather than just one unit, as you suggest with the Overwatch. Whole different issue.
I will give you the SMS not hitting rear armor, I apparently play against a lot of Tau players who cheat. Regardless, you are still comparing MORE points of orks versus 1 single Riptide. More often then not though, Meganobz are using Trukkz to transport themselves across the table because BWs are just not worth the investment. 110pts for a AV14/12/10vehicle that has ZERO weapons or special rules beyond the ability to transport 22 models.
I won't get involved in to much more theory hammer but I will leave you with this. If the Ork player doesn't bring Meganobz in a Battlewagon we have zero answers for a Riptide not even talking about a riptide wing. Everything else we own is either to slow or to weak to do much to this thing, the best we could theoretically do is swamp it in bodies but that really never works when Tau can delete most of our army before the end of turn 2. Riptides need a nerf, I am sorry you feel you would never again win a game without your cheese but that is the case.
Ok so you agree with me that the Riptide is not undercosted as I compared an Ork unit with 5 more points than the Riptide? So those 5 more points for the Orks makes all of the diference. Cool, glad you agree. You know, playing Orks is rough, even when I was spamming firewarriors and dropping in crisis suits, it was the same story then and it's the same story now ...but now we're mad at the riptide. If you ever wonder about how good it is, why not ask you Tau opponent to make a non Riptide list and see how it goes? Because against a bad codex like the Orks, substituting that 225 points into several other units won't necesasrily improve your odds of winning - maybe just the opposite - epescially when you realize that some the smaller units are probably more effective and more cost efficient against your army than the overkill and cost of Str 8/9 AP2 pie plates.
Why would anyone say that the Riptide is not unecosted? that thing is tankier then some Super Heavies/GMC's, can out the firepower of several tanks downrange and can out manoeuvre everything else it faces on the battlefield, barring Scatbikes. Oh, and it outranges many heavy weapons units too.
How the hell is a 225 point model capable of doing all of this not undercosted? Please answer me this?
See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.
A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.
Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".
Which is exactly what I was thinking. That said, dropping the 3++ Nova Charge option, increasing FNP to 65 points AND also reducing the armor to 3+ might have been too much durability nerfing. Opinions?
See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.
A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.
Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".
Which is exactly what I was thinking. That said, dropping the 3++ Nova Charge option, increasing FNP to 65 points AND also reducing the armor to 3+ might have been too much durability nerfing. Opinions?
Keep the 3++ if you are changing to 3+ armor. If you keep 2+ armor, limit it to a 4++ save. I think FNP for T6 models should be very expensive, and so 65 seems fair. There is also the matter of making the base IAAP 3 instead of AP 2.
See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.
A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.
Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".
Which is exactly what I was thinking. That said, dropping the 3++ Nova Charge option, increasing FNP to 65 points AND also reducing the armor to 3+ might have been too much durability nerfing. Opinions?
Keep the 3++ if you are changing to 3+ armor. If you keep 2+ armor, limit it to a 4++ save. I think FNP for T6 models should be very expensive, and so 65 seems fair. There is also the matter of making the base IAAP 3 instead of AP 2.
Actually, I made it R30 and base AP4, and dropped the Overcharge mode entirely (but buffed to Heavy 5 when firing in non-Nova mode).
Lemme run a few numbers to see which makes more sense.
EDIT: on further consideration, keeping 2+ armor but only a 5+ invuln makes more sense, to maintain more distinction between the Riptide and Ghostkeel. The Ghostkeel's cover tricks make it resilient against long-range antitank fire but it's fairly vulnerable to close-in bombardment with light weapons. The Riptide should be the inverse - relatively weak to long-range AT but very resistant to anti-infantry shooting. Both are still pretty resilient, though. (The Ghostkeel is much easier to instagib, however).
I don't have a problem with the IA killing meqs, I DO mind it zorfing MANZ, terminators, SG, and oblits. I Tau want AP 2, they should have to overcharge or take plasma/fusion/rail guns.
Martel732 wrote: I don't have a problem with the IA killing meqs, I DO mind it zorfing MANZ, terminators, SG, and oblits. I Tau want AP 2, they should have to overcharge or take plasma/fusion/rail guns.
I suppose AP3 for the 5-shot mode isn't totally unreasonable, actually - it'd be a half-range version of the Hammerhead ion cannon with a stronger but less accessible blast mode. I was thinking AP4 for consistency with other ion weapons, but then, there's already one AP3 one.
Martel732 wrote: I don't mind the Riptide being super tough and very killy. But it's TOO tough against too many things and TOO killy against too many things.
I fully agree. My thought is "killy enough that you can't ignore it, tough enough to demand much of an army's firepower to kill it quickly, thus protecting other units".
72" S8 AP2 large pie plates is insane. I don't know why Tau players don't understand this. Even if it were S7, it would be a lot better because T4 could take FNP and not be doubled out. A single pie plate is doing the damage of 15 or so BS 4 plasma guns in some cases. Who thinks 15 plasma guns on one MC is fair?
The counter of course are invisible ICs that are T5 with stacked saves tanking the damage. Tau players fail to understand that no one else can kill such abominations, either, and all they have really accomplished is raising the survival bar so high that half the codices in the game might as well not show up.
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)
carldooley wrote: Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)
Three questions:
1) how likely is that the marines are situated all within the 5" area?
2) how easier is to remove or silence the Russ, compared to remove or neutralize a riptide?
3) 72", str 8, AP2, ignore cover are weapon features belong to FOUR DIFFERENT RUSSES - did you take it in consideration?
carldooley wrote: Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)
You are assuming that the Russ is alive long enough to fire on the Marines, the Marines are clustered tightly together, the Russ does not scatter and the Marines are in the open and not in a dedicated transprt.
On the other hand the Riptide can quite easily be BS 5/6 with Ignores Cover, better AP and more shots, each of which is a blast. The Riptide is also far faster and far tougher.
Not by itself. A riptide is BS3 natively. If its controlling player wants the pie plate, it requires multiple rolls: gets hot, scatter and so on. A leman russ only requires one. Something that people seem to overlook: the firing platform (riptide) may not be in range of your guns, but the support that can give it increased BS, ignore cover and so on sure as hell will be.
The counter of course are invisible ICs that are T5 with stacked saves tanking the damage. Tau players fail to understand that no one else can kill such abominations, either, and all they have really accomplished is raising the survival bar so high that half the codices in the game might as well not show up.
The danger to me here is chicken or egg, as long as invisi-stars exist, and you only have 1 turn if you go first to try and kill it, I want my chance to do so. And they want to invisi-star because i might 1 shot them if they don't get it. But super-friends invisi-stars won't go away unless Riptide goes away which won't go until invisi-star goes away, etc, ad naseum
The suggestion you and Jade_angel have making its primary weapon shorter is fine, keep it in line with its 2ndary weapons, and changing to ap3 is also ok, and it at least is a little different than all the s7ap4 we already have (missile-sides, missle pod crisis suits, missile drones, ion rifles, cyclic ion blasters, ion cannon, quad ion cannon)
And politely request that making FNP 50 points would be more reasonable than 65, if you bother to leave it as an option. I'd rather it not be an option. But charging 1/3rd the cost of a new unit, or a really well equipped crisis suit, or another broadside seems a bit overzealous? After all the shield generator (4++) is 50 points on the ghost keel and the storm-surge
carldooley wrote: Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)
You are assuming that the Russ is alive long enough to fire on the Marines, the Marines are clustered tightly together, the Russ does not scatter and the Marines are in the open and not in a dedicated transprt.
On the other hand the Riptide can quite easily be BS 5/6 with Ignores Cover, better AP and more shots, each of which is a blast. The Riptide is also far faster and far tougher.
assuming the riptide will always have 5+ markerlights on its unit, and can fire 2ce every turn with blasts is at least as much of an assumption that the Russ is alive and unshaken.
carldooley wrote: is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?
Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.
carldooley wrote: is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?
Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.
So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.
carldooley wrote: is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?
Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.
So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.
A defiler and leman russ are trash. I'd hope you know this, and are just being difficult, but they are terrible units.
Second, the hypothetical scenario that leads to this is completely imaginary. For remove 170 points you'd have to have all 10 marines under a pie plate, not fail to wound one, and no cover saves. The odds of this happening, just the placement alone, is just...what? No.
A much more common scenario is 3-5 models a turn per riptide. 4 is probably the most common, with 3's being a bad scatter but still getting the unit and anything over 5 because your opponent bunched up for a variety of reasons. But 10?
Even at 4 models per turn, that's ~60 points per turn with the occasional extra points thrown in when the PGs or something die. Average of 17 ppm figure roughly 68 or 70 points per turn. The riptide earns its points back over 3-4 turns roughly, 4 being the most common number.
The biggest reason why the tides are superior is that they are incredibly easy to remove turn 1. Lots of units can pod in, move quickly, or just bring down their HP relatively quickly and pop them. It's much easier to stop them firing for 2-3 turns then it is for the riptide to be stopped over the course of the game.
The next biggest reason is mobility. A leman russ that is outdeployed is worthless for half the game, maybe longer. It's slow and can't re-position well. For a unit that needs to be firing over the first 2-3 turns to stop assaults from happening.
Last, the formation. Before the formation, the Tides were good but not broken. They were extremely hard to remove, but could be ignored if you wanted to reach CC quickly and deal with the rest of the army. Now that isn't the case, the wing formation allows them to fire twice, often on turn 1-2 before CC is joined. This makes the 3 tides go from 24 dead models by turn 2 to 36 dead models by turn 2. It's a big difference, 50% increase, not to mention their Nova reactors being more reliable increasing their toughness.
To contrast, 4 Leman russes, assuming they can fire every turn which is often not the case, will kill 4 less models by turn 2 IF they all get to fire and none of them get targetted. This is extremely rare, as any IG player will tell you. If a leman russ could fire for 5-6 turns at a target it wanted to fire at every game, it would be beyond broken.
Not a lot of armies can have 36 wounds put on their units by turn 2 from 700 points of the army and still make it across the table. Some can, if they have invuls and are incredibly fast (or can 1 turn the riptides). But if your army lacks that kind of thing, the riptide wing just destroys your army before you get off the ground in most cases.
The one thing it's weak against, MSU body spam, Tau fire warriors and other suits do extremely against. The Tau are well designed this way compared to other armies that have glaring weaknesses and can't cover it up.
A much more common scenario is 3-5 models a turn per riptide. 4 is probably the most common, with 3's being a bad scatter but still getting the unit and anything over 5 because your opponent bunched up for a variety of reasons
You guys are aware that, when properly spaced, pie plates cover 3 models at most? Getting 4 is a mistake by your opponent, getting 5 means he really doesn't care.
Tau players fail to understand that no one else can kill such abominations, either, and all they have really accomplished is raising the survival bar so high that half the codices in the game might as well not show up.
You seem to fail to understand that by now around half the codices are able to play on the same level as riptide wings, and that the other half will struggle against any of them in a competitive match. It's not Tau's and not the Riptide's fault.
A much more common scenario is 3-5 models a turn per riptide. 4 is probably the most common, with 3's being a bad scatter but still getting the unit and anything over 5 because your opponent bunched up for a variety of reasons
You guys are aware that, when properly spaced, pie plates cover 3 models at most? Getting 4 is a mistake by your opponent, getting 5 means he really doesn't care.
Properly spaced 4 is still quite doable. Try it out yourself, you don't need to cover the entire model. When I use Riptides, 4 is very much the mode.
3 is if the enemy is properly spaced in such a way that minimizes the blast weapon and manages it nearly perfectly every turn, and you don't scatter at all. It's possible, but somewhat rare. Keep in mind, a 5" blast template is centered around a little less then an inch base and must just clip the other models to count as hit. It's not unrealistic to get 4 models. It has 2" of room on each side, a little more, which is the spacing amount.
I already admitted 5 or above is a mistake. It does happen against horde armies or if your opponent is dealing with terrain. Sometimes if they are eager for melee.
The good news with the riptide is your opponent wants to space out to ensure you get 3-4 models per turn, and not 5+. This often means that they don't bunch up, so any kills you do get push the melee unit back. I've faced null jetbike armies that don't reach combat till turn 4, I kill so much from the front between the formation and the suits. As someone who plays combat armies, it's very annoying.
Keep in mind, my original response was towards someone who claimed the same template would get all 10 models at once...
I will give you the SMS not hitting rear armor, I apparently play against a lot of Tau players who cheat. Regardless, you are still comparing MORE points of orks versus 1 single Riptide. More often then not though, Meganobz are using Trukkz to transport themselves across the table because BWs are just not worth the investment. 110pts for a AV14/12/10vehicle that has ZERO weapons or special rules beyond the ability to transport 22 models.
I won't get involved in to much more theory hammer but I will leave you with this. If the Ork player doesn't bring Meganobz in a Battlewagon we have zero answers for a Riptide not even talking about a riptide wing. Everything else we own is either to slow or to weak to do much to this thing, the best we could theoretically do is swamp it in bodies but that really never works when Tau can delete most of our army before the end of turn 2. Riptides need a nerf, I am sorry you feel you would never again win a game without your cheese but that is the case.
Ok so you agree with me that the Riptide is not undercosted as I compared an Ork unit with 5 more points than the Riptide? So those 5 more points for the Orks makes all of the diference. Cool, glad you agree. You know, playing Orks is rough, even when I was spamming firewarriors and dropping in crisis suits, it was the same story then and it's the same story now ...but now we're mad at the riptide. If you ever wonder about how good it is, why not ask you Tau opponent to make a non Riptide list and see how it goes? Because against a bad codex like the Orks, substituting that 225 points into several other units won't necesasrily improve your odds of winning - maybe just the opposite - epescially when you realize that some the smaller units are probably more effective and more cost efficient against your army than the overkill and cost of Str 8/9 AP2 pie plates.
No, in fact nowhere do I even remotely come close to saying that the Riptide is NOT undercosted I have in fact said the opposite, IT IS UNDERCOSTED AND OVERPOWERED.
Its funny you think that because I have a unit that can TIE UP a Riptide for 1-2 turns by turn 3 that Its ok. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the tau codex is stupid but we are not talking about the rest of the Tau codex atm we are talking about the Riptide.
Name a Single unit in the game that can do more for 225pts then the riptide can? Is there a single unit in the game which brings as much to the table as a Riptide for such a cheap cost? Nothing is as fast, as shooty and as durable as a Riptide and yet you keep blathering about how its not under priced.
At the moment the only reliable way to remove riptides is to use Grav cannons on them, which is great and all but unfortunately only 1 faction (SM) has access to those weapons and the rest of us are stuck trying to remove the stupid things with CC units or blasting away all game at it with Las/plasma/autocannon or the equivalent for the force.
I am sorry dude but your toy is in drastic need of a nerf.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fun fact, if the Ork player fails his charge for whatever reason, the Riptide can jump away that turn and still fire off a huge S8 AP2 pie plate which can double out the Meganobz who won't get a save But hey, Bach says its not OP or under priced.
carldooley wrote: is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?
Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.
So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.
You are willingly ignoring people that points out WHY there is a huge difference between the defiler/russ and the riptide.
carldooley wrote: is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?
Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.
So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.
You are willingly ignoring people that points out WHY there is a huge difference between the defiler/russ and the riptide.
Not at all. I am well aware of the difference, as I use both the riptide and the leman russ (and when I played CSM I had 3 defilers).
The point that I was trying to make was that losing stuff to pie plates is nothing new, and before anyone says it: I know why people have a.problem with the. EWO and the IA (which is what people actually seem to have a problem with): you get to place the plate before the squad spreads out.
Before I played Tau I was curious as to what all the hubbub was about? In my mind, the unit that was entering from reserves was the delivery vehicle, the drop pod, but not the unit contained within. In my mind, that makes the drop pod the only legal target, and the only way to target the squad would have been scatter or if they had been too close to the model when deployed. Targeting the unit deploying from it made as much sense as targeting a unit deploying from a rhino, because who puts their models inside their vehicles?
**edit** Actually, it reminds me of something that I found funny at the time: reading through the tactical squad's entry in the SM codex, (the last one, I think) I came across the transport entry for them. it said something along the lines of the squad could take a rhino or a razorback and if they numbered 10 models they could take a Drop Pod. What it didn't say was 'instead'. Meaning in my mind, that they could take both in a list.
No, what people seem to have a problem with is that the combination forces people to change their tactics, much like what happened in the beginning when people started using knights or psykers started using invisibility. My initial response, which hasn't changed much, was that if you brought a drop list and you saw EWOs spread among your opponent's army, then you had 3 choices (after my initial impressions (above) were corrected): deploy aggressively towards your target (and risk the pie plate of doom), take cover behind the drop pod (prior to the GWFAQ), or drop it empty and deploy on the table. But no? just nerf the thing.
How about this (which I suggest, while knowing that people will never go for the targeted change): Change the cost of the IA to 15, and the EWO to 20. The IA isn't the problem, the fact that it removes the chance to react to its firing is. Make the EWO as expensive as the Velocity Tracker. That way, us Tau players are paying 35 points for the combo, the same as the Drop Pod that we are invalidating.
Has anyone actually played a Tau army against a massively deepstriking army, like the new Blood Angels Terminators or Droppods or Grey Knights Paladins with FnP, without a Riptide? If yes: How often? Who won the game?
Please don't get me wrong: I understand, that spamming Riptides and of course the formation itself can be a huge problem. But you are all talking about the Riptide as a single model. Maybe - just maybe - GW wanted the Riptide as this huge aggression and psychological effect? (I know - GW is not able to think )
As a Blood Angel, CSM and Sisters-player, I know that it is no easy enemy, but untill now, i managed one or two - not easily, but I've managed. And as a Tau player, I have at least two turns each game, where I do not have the 3++ because of bad rolls.
Because of my experience in a casual gaming area - next year, I will play 40K for 20 years - I have that feeling that many of you guys are overreacting as soon as it comes to the Riptide as a single model.
Covenant wrote: Has anyone actually played a Tau army against a massively deepstriking army, like the new Blood Angels Terminators or Droppods or Grey Knights Paladins with FnP, without a Riptide? If yes: How often? Who won the game?
Please don't get me wrong: I understand, that spamming Riptides and of course the formation itself can be a huge problem. But you are all talking about the Riptide as a single model. Maybe - just maybe - GW wanted the Riptide as this huge aggression and psychological effect? (I know - GW is not able to think )
That's called a "Distraction Carnifex".
The issue is that unlike an actual Distraction Carnifex(a cheaply pointed, big model that looks scarier than it actually is)...the Riptide is a legitimate threat.
As a Blood Angel, CSM and Sisters-player, I know that it is no easy enemy, but untill now, i managed one or two - not easily, but I've managed. And as a Tau player, I have at least two turns each game, where I do not have the 3++ because of bad rolls.
Because of my experience in a casual gaming area - next year, I will play 40K for 20 years - I have that feeling that many of you guys are overreacting as soon as it comes to the Riptide as a single model.
Yawn. Another "gitgud" post, huh?
Sure, maybe there's an element of overreaction...or maybe there's an element of not being a Tau player and understanding that the thing is wildly undercosted pointswise.
Martel732 wrote: Deepstriking against Tau is largely suicide. At least, for BA. Evidently Jancoran can do it.
Did you ever try it with the new codex, or are you still theoryhammering? Just try it with the new terminator formation, 3++ doesn't care much about that EWO. Coordinate them with additional DS elements like Fragiosos for target saturation. At the casual level you are playing at this will work more often than not.
You what doesn't care about 3++? Intercepting HYMP. It's not like the new BA book changed the mechanics of deep striking. Assaulting from DS is a meaningless ability vs Tau, because they shoot you just as much. It's actually meanigful vs Eldar, though.
Someone forgot to tell my opponents that we are casual.
Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.
JNAProductions wrote: Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).
Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.
The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......
So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.
JNAProductions wrote: Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).
Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.
The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......
So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.
while it is in combat it cannot shoot. and more often than not, it will lose combat, have to test, and if it fails it will get swept and destroyed.
JNAProductions wrote: Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).
Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.
The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......
So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.
while it is in combat it cannot shoot. and more often than not, it will lose combat, have to test, and if it fails it will get swept and destroyed.
No, it won't. It rarely works out that way because too often, no wounds get through vs Riptide.
JNAProductions wrote: Riptides don't have Stomp, they have Smash. And that's one attack, hitting on a 4, glancing on a 3 (rerollable, though).
Which a furiouso gets zero saves against, while a furiouso in return gets 5 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge. Of course this is also assuming it can either walk across the board unmolested or Drop pod in and not get blown apart that same turn. Also The Riptide is Hitting on 5s because of WS5 vs WS2 but Still a 1/3rd chance to hit with a 2/3rd chance to HP strip with a 1/2 chance to do damage on the table.
The Furiouso has 5 attacks hitting on 3s so lets say 4 hits, against T 6 = 3 wounds usually, against a 3++ and a 5+++ that a little less then 1 wound a turn......
So the riptide which is supposed to suck terrible at CC can actually hold its own against a Walker Vehicle that is designed SOLELY for CC. yep, its not under priced at all.
while it is in combat it cannot shoot. and more often than not, it will lose combat, have to test, and if it fails it will get swept and destroyed.
Martel already covered it fairly well, but just to pile in. Most armies can't assault a riptide turn 1...infact I think there are 1-2 that can pull that nifty little trick off, and most of that can be defused by using common sense when deploying. Furthermore, you can just position a throw away unit of firewarriors in front and boom its now safe from most armies. (Assault from deep strike aside). So in reality that riptide is shooting for 3 turns minimum before it gets assaulted, by which time the Tau army have more then likely already won unless they are playing Eldar/SMs who are as powerful if not more so then Tau. Every other army....? probably all but dead
Well SW I lumped in with Vanilla but . And Necrons? I don't think Tau are nearly as scared of Necrons as the rest of us. They have so much dakka and so few vehicles that they just aren't as scared of them. Don't get me wrong there are some units that are scary for Tau but not the entire army.
And Tau can focus fire those handful of units of wraiths down to nothing before turn 3 You know this as well as I do. 40ppm T5 3++ and RP is hard to kill but not impossible, especially for Tau.
I think the riptide should be a linebreaker unit, since crisis suits were never artillery units. I don't think its overcosted though. As long as you take out the right thing in the tau army, which are the markerlights, you'll get by fairly easy.
And also, try playing maelstrom. The game forces people to move their riptide forward sometimes, and thus be melee fodder. And riptides can't kill enough wraiths to stop them. More often than not, the wraiths will just eat through everything a tau army has.
And Tau can focus fire those handful of units of wraiths down to nothing before turn 3 You know this as well as I do. 40ppm T5 3++ and RP is hard to kill but not impossible, especially for Tau.
I don't think they can do this and engage the rest of the army.
Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.
1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.
Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.
Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.
1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.
Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.
1/3rd chance to hit with a 1/2 chance to pen with a 1/6 change to explode, and a 1/6 chance to immobilize (rear armor attacks after that)
Compared to a Furioso's 4 attacks hitting on 3s (3 hits) wounding on 2s so probably 3 wounds. against a 3++ thats 1 wound and a 1/3rd chance to ignore that with FNP. So yeah, eventually the Furioso will get unlucky and blow up. probably before the Riptide runs out of wounds.
Also again this is in a vacuum, I doubt that furioso gets into CC in the first place.
Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.
1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.
Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.
1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.
Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
Exalted for truth.
My favorite Tau argument that follows is "Take a throw away unit to draw overwatch"
Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.
1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.
Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.
I don't think i'm the one who needs to get a grip. Tau players constant underestimation of their capabilities is what is getting ridiculous.
Furiosos? Are you kidding me? Riptides actually beat them in CC with smash and immortality. True story. I haven't mathed it out, but the Riptide can probably kill two of them in CC. Glad I've got a CC walker.
1 attack, hit on 5+, pen on 4+... that's a pen every 4th round on average, and an average of 12 cc rounds to kill the furioso. But please, tell me more how awesome riptide are in CC.
Seriously, get a grip dude, this is just ridiculous. Maybe start playing Tau if it's so easy, you might learn something about beating them.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
Because players keep 1/2 their army within 6 inches of their riptide?
The bottom line here is that you have to a) have immortal models ala invis wolfstars or b) somehow outshoot the Tau ala Eldar to compete vs Tau. Assaulting them with mortal units is folly, as they are designed to hard counter that approach. The have weak CC stats, but are impossible to actually assault due to multiple layers of assault protection.
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion. Tau are always on the defensive and never have to move, except to get LoS to shoot some more. VPs don't matter when you're tabled.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.
And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.
And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.
Riptides can take TL fusion blasters for free in place of the SMS. or TL plasma rifle, so they can have it on tap. unlikely to hit, but if a dreadnaught is charging, its likely close enough to be in melta range.
Yeah, but the competitive loadout is SMS, because they are better in almost every situation.
I'm saying you'd lose it, too. Most players when confronted with BA scenarios assume the standard marine solutions apply. They don't.
I play my BA against Tau rather regularly, and it's not so bad of a matchup. We don't play hyper-competitively, so e.g. I don't see riptide wings (which are, as we have established multiple times, a separate issues), but I have no problem taking on 2 riptides. I don't win every game, but it's rather balanced.
I am also very confident that I could beat any Tau list with BA if I get double the points (especially because I play both armies), you are seriously misjudging this.
Ushtarador wrote: Yeah, but the competitive loadout is SMS, because they are better in almost every situation.
I'm saying you'd lose it, too. Most players when confronted with BA scenarios assume the standard marine solutions apply. They don't.
I play my BA against Tau rather regularly, and it's not so bad of a matchup. We don't play hyper-competitively, so e.g. I don't see riptide wings (which are, as we have established multiple times, a separate issues), but I have no problem taking on 2 riptides.
I am also very confident that I could beat any Tau list with BA if I get double the points (especially because I play both armies), you are seriously misjudging this.
Am I somehow missing the part where BA get literally none of the things that make vanilla marines good? And Tau have an answer for every BA unit?
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.
And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.
And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.
I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?
No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.
And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.
And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.
I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?
No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.
...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"
That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.
Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.
And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.
And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.
I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?
No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.
...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"
That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.
Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.
So I said to nerf all the characteristics and increase the cost? I need to focus on my typing skills more because im pretty sure I said it needs to have reduced durability in regards to its saves, and that its weapon needs to be shorter range with a lesser AP. Going from Range 72 to Range 36 is a HUGE nerf and it would still be good. Going from AP2 to AP3 is a HUGE nerf but it would still be acceptable.
I think those above mentioned nerfs would be fine, no points increase needed.
Also I used the Morkanaut as an example not because im saying BUFF ORKS but because its about the closest thing I have to a Riptide in regards to size, weapons and points cost.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.
And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.
And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.
I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?
No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.
...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"
That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.
Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.
So I said to nerf all the characteristics and increase the cost? I need to focus on my typing skills more because im pretty sure I said it needs to have reduced durability in regards to its saves, and that its weapon needs to be shorter range with a lesser AP. Going from Range 72 to Range 36 is a HUGE nerf and it would still be good. Going from AP2 to AP3 is a HUGE nerf but it would still be acceptable.
I think those above mentioned nerfs would be fine, no points increase needed.
Also I used the Morkanaut as an example not because im saying BUFF ORKS but because its about the closest thing I have to a Riptide in regards to size, weapons and points cost.
SemperMortis, have you seen the new campaign books? IIRC, the latest Angel's blade book have pretty amazing formations that makes BA really do what they do best that would give tau commanders a pause.
And if you are talking about nerfs, we should nerf the drop pods, because at 35 points, its too tough to take down for something that is objective secured, come in reserves first turn, no mishap unless it falls out the table, and gives cover saves to the marines inside it. There are many other units that needs to be nerfed also but that just opens a whole can of worms.
The riptide in fluff was able to dish out damage from far to take over imperium strongholds while holding their own when artillery strikes. It was GW's plan to push the models I would agree, but saying its an end all just makes no sense. There are some armies out there which have an advantage over a riptide wing actually.
And to be honest, playing a small game using multiple riptides is just bad sport, especially in more casual games. That I would agree.
You are missing A) The 3++ and FNP, and B) The combined overwatch of half the Tau army.
For the price of a tide with FnP I can get almost 2 Fragiosos though (of course the 3++ works 100% of the time). Overwatch against AV13 is laughable dude. Or do the riptides suddenly have fusion blasters everywhere? And did you again forget to kill the markerlights? Also, I thought firewarriors were bad anyway and nobody plays them, why are they suddenly there to bubblewrap?
The reality is that I could probably take a BA list with double the points of a Tau list and still lose the match due to unit depletion.
And there I thought it couldn't get sillier. If you lose this matchup with double the points you should stop playing any competitive game ever. You remind me very much of that one guy we have in the store, who always tries out some netlists once, loses against experienced people and then whines how OP the other armies are.
And you don't think that your Fragiosos would get shot to hell the turn they deepstrike? Yeah the Tides might not have Fusion guns but im sure other units around riptide will. And unless the majority of your army is deepstriking into the Tau lines those handful of units you do Deepstrike are going to be shot to hell easily.
I am sorry, but in a vacuum where we keep making up loop holes this argument can go on forever. Take a step back and think about this for a bit. Would you be ok facing my Orks if my Morkanaut became a Jump MC with a 2+ Save and a 3++ save as well as a 5+++, dropped in price by about 40pts and gained BS3 with all of its weapons basically getting HUGE buffs? IE The KMK became large blast and the TL Big shoota became TL Supa Shootas?
No, I think people would start talking about Ork cheese (Im assuming its green colored). Riptides are a great unit that went overboard with durability. They should be capped out at 3+ save 4++ save and FNP should be a lot more expensive to purchase. Its weapons also need a serious nerf in range as well as AP.
...sigh.. "Nerf all the characteristics and increase points cost!"
That's how you shut down conversations, because no one will accept that.
Morkanaut should be better, all of orks should be better, we agree. The riptide is too good for what it costs in a general meta (not top v. top, or top v. bottom, but Tau v. all) But making it softer (easier to wound, ok that's fair), weaker (reducing ap,... not the AP "significantly" ap3 is ok), myopic (72", yes too far, 24" worth play testing? but that alone would dramatically shift it, as it will be tied up if not swept more often), AND more expensive? You've killed the conversation. Its better than the bottom rung codexes bad units, but its not even middling tier at 3 w 3+ 5/4++ 5+++ 24"s7 ap4 300 points that you are asking for.
So I said to nerf all the characteristics and increase the cost? I need to focus on my typing skills more because im pretty sure I said it needs to have reduced durability in regards to its saves, and that its weapon needs to be shorter range with a lesser AP. Going from Range 72 to Range 36 is a HUGE nerf and it would still be good. Going from AP2 to AP3 is a HUGE nerf but it would still be acceptable.
I think those above mentioned nerfs would be fine, no points increase needed.
Also I used the Morkanaut as an example not because im saying BUFF ORKS but because its about the closest thing I have to a Riptide in regards to size, weapons and points cost.
SemperMortis, have you seen the new campaign books? IIRC, the latest Angel's blade book have pretty amazing formations that makes BA really do what they do best that would give tau commanders a pause.
And if you are talking about nerfs, we should nerf the drop pods, because at 35 points, its too tough to take down for something that is objective secured, come in reserves first turn, no mishap unless it falls out the table, and gives cover saves to the marines inside it. There are many other units that needs to be nerfed also but that just opens a whole can of worms.
The riptide in fluff was able to dish out damage from far to take over imperium strongholds while holding their own when artillery strikes. It was GW's plan to push the models I would agree, but saying its an end all just makes no sense. There are some armies out there which have an advantage over a riptide wing actually.
And to be honest, playing a small game using multiple riptides is just bad sport, especially in more casual games. That I would agree.
And in the fluff a single Baneblade makes entire armies gak their keks and run, and can take on entire tank regiments and win, but.....
Ushtarador wrote: Yeah, but the competitive loadout is SMS, because they are better in almost every situation.
I'm saying you'd lose it, too. Most players when confronted with BA scenarios assume the standard marine solutions apply. They don't.
I play my BA against Tau rather regularly, and it's not so bad of a matchup. We don't play hyper-competitively, so e.g. I don't see riptide wings (which are, as we have established multiple times, a separate issues), but I have no problem taking on 2 riptides.
I am also very confident that I could beat any Tau list with BA if I get double the points (especially because I play both armies), you are seriously misjudging this.
Am I somehow missing the part where BA get literally none of the things that make vanilla marines good? And Tau have an answer for every BA unit?
And you're not taking grav cannons why? BA have access to these, and should use them, especially against Riptides. A Riptide that is opting to use the 3++ is a Riptide not nova-charging a HBC, which makes the weapon far less effective.
Grav devs aren't good. Skyhammer devs are good, but not vs Tau. The only grav cannons good vs Tau are in an invis centstar because all other grav cannons are dead grav cannons.
"e latest Angel's blade book have pretty amazing formations that makes BA really do what they do best that would give tau commanders a pause. "
I wish this were true. Instead, it's a whole book hard-countered by interceptor.
@Master of Ordinance, what makes you think it can't?
@Martel, wait, how can they be hard countered by interceptor when they have feel no pain? And if they have no feel no pain, why are so many people complaining about how tough they are?
If you plan to fight a tau player, tell him or her to bring a take all comers list. Tau is especially strong when they have the choice to tailor their list, but when they are choosing their upgrades to take all comers, it starts to become evident that they cannot do everything. And even if they do, they aren't especially good at it, even a riptide.
Unless you play BA against Tau. then therefore you are doomed. your dice will fail you every time. the opponent hat a un-breaking chain of lucky dice rolls and from time to time the table itself starts to devour your precious BA and vomits out a new or several Riptides. ( during a ongoing battle of course)
_ghost_ wrote: Unless you play BA against Tau. then therefore you are doomed. your dice will fail you every time. the opponent hat a un-breaking chain of lucky dice rolls and from time to time the table itself starts to devour your precious BA and vomits out a new or several Riptides. ( during a ongoing battle of course)
Keep in mind that happens to the Tau player at least as often as it happens to you.
I would love to know what kind of game was being played that granted without Number to your opponent's Riptide(s).
well this is called exaggerated SuperstitionHammer(eSH 40k) ... sometimes i feel a lot people here like to play this kind of 40k.
It works best when units are compared in a vacuum... or if someone changes the parameters at will so that the own argument is never proven wrong.
And you have to see. BA are always doomed to lose. even if you have twice or more points.. especialy vs Tau. Lets be honest. Firewarriors alone could table any BA army.
How many non-skyhammer grav devs have you seen used?
"t starts to become evident that they cannot do everything"
Most people in my meta ignore flyers as their anti-air. That means all interceptor and no skyfire is all-comers. The HBC/IA debate is remotely relevant.
_ghost_ wrote: Unless you play BA against Tau. then therefore you are doomed. your dice will fail you every time. the opponent hat a un-breaking chain of lucky dice rolls and from time to time the table itself starts to devour your precious BA and vomits out a new or several Riptides. ( during a ongoing battle of course)
Keep in mind that happens to the Tau player at least as often as it happens to you.
I would love to know what kind of game was being played that granted without Number to your opponent's Riptide(s).
Another feature of the Tau is that they are often rolling so many shooting dice it's rare for them to roll anomalously.
Most people in my meta ignore flyers as their anti-air. That means all interceptor and no skyfire is all-comers. The HBC/IA debate is remotely relevant.
So why aren't you bringing 3-4 Storm Ravens with assault cannons packed with Death Company to every match?
How many non-skyhammer grav devs have you seen used?
I use them every time I bring my competitive build to the table.
If I'm not going competitive, then I don't bring them, because they are really rude to people unprepared for them. They're that good, even without Skyhammer and all that jazz.
It's a unit that can only fire 24" and that's when it stands still. How is that rude? I've never had an issue with non-skyhammer grav devs. I think they're actually kinda crappy for what they cost. Without invisibility, even grav cents are kinda chumps. T5 2+ W2? That squad is crippled after a few plasma guns hit it. Or a single vindicator round.
Most people in my meta ignore flyers as their anti-air. That means all interceptor and no skyfire is all-comers. The HBC/IA debate is remotely relevant.
So why aren't you bringing 3-4 Storm Ravens with assault cannons packed with Death Company to every match?
Storm ravens are bad for starters. Having that much of your list reserved is also not good. Additionally, death from the skies makes this strategy completely foolhardy, and there is the chance those become the actual rules in 8th. So there's lots of reasons to not use this as a general list.
If units like Grav Cents were as strong as Riptides without enablers like psychic buffs, they'd be incredibly obnoxious once powered-up. Armies like Necrons and Tau have no psychic potential.
So that's a problematic point to make regarding competitive balance, because psychic powers are a thing. Looking at individual aspects of how armies function in isolation, isn't how things necessarily play out on the tabletop.
Yoyoyo wrote: If units like Grav Cents were as strong as Riptides without enablers like psychic buffs, they'd be incredibly obnoxious once powered-up. Armies like Necrons and Tau have no psychic potential.
So that's a problematic point to make regarding competitive balance, because psychic powers are a thing. Looking at individual aspects of how armies function in isolation, isn't how things necessarily play out on the tabletop.
I'm not asking for them to be as strong as Riptides. I'm just saying that without psychic buffs, they are basically chumps.
Yoyoyo wrote: If units like Grav Cents were as strong as Riptides without enablers like psychic buffs, they'd be incredibly obnoxious once powered-up. Armies like Necrons and Tau have no psychic potential.
So that's a problematic point to make regarding competitive balance, because psychic powers are a thing. Looking at individual aspects of how armies function in isolation, isn't how things necessarily play out on the tabletop.
Psychic Powers are a thing, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, there's still something that can be done by armies or players whose lists are without Psykers.
You still obtain a number of dice for denying Psyker powers whether it is your turn or not or if you have Psykers or not. You just don't get as many if you do not have Psykers.
How many non-skyhammer grav devs have you seen used?
I use them every time I bring my competitive build to the table.
If I'm not going competitive, then I don't bring them, because they are really rude to people unprepared for them. They're that good, even without Skyhammer and all that jazz.
Martel732 wrote: It's a unit that can only fire 24" and that's when it stands still. How is that rude? I've never had an issue with non-skyhammer grav devs. I think they're actually kinda crappy for what they cost.
Deployed via Pod and with proper support they do wonders. They're the replacement for my Sternguard from 6th, who costed even more.
If you were really concerned about damage output, you could always attach a Cataphractii Captain and make them SnP. Personally I don't bother.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, a Drop Pod so your 49 point marines shoot 3 times at 12". Super powerful stuff there.
Averaged to 28 ppm in a ten man squad, and requiring my opponent to get through some ablative wounds before affecting damage output. 12 shots at 12" is the first turn, if they're still around its 20 shots at 24".
At the end of the day you can poo poo them all you like, but they help me kill Riptides.
If they even get to shoot in the first place you mean. Non-relentless grav devs aren't getting you anywhere vs riptides. They're a ggod way to waste points, though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, a Drop Pod so your 49 point marines shoot 3 times at 12". Super powerful stuff there.
Averaged to 28 ppm in a ten man squad, and requiring my opponent to get through some ablative wounds before affecting damage output. 12 shots at 12" is the first turn, if they're still around its 20 shots at 24".
At the end of the day you can poo poo them all you like, but they help me kill Riptides.
This thread is ostensibly about Riptides, right?
You forgot that your drop pod devastators will be pie-plated to death by the 5 riptides, while your Furiosos get blown up by the other 5. Or something like that.
I feel Martel will only be happy when he can beat Tau with a T1 alpha strike without losing a single model.
Having that much of your list reserved is also not good.
Another blanket statement. I have won tournaments with lists built around heavy turn 2 strikes. Of course it won't work if half of your army is standing in the open turn 1, ready to be picked off, you need to put thought into list building.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ah yes, a Drop Pod so your 49 point marines shoot 3 times at 12". Super powerful stuff there.
Averaged to 28 ppm in a ten man squad, and requiring my opponent to get through some ablative wounds before affecting damage output. 12 shots at 12" is the first turn, if they're still around its 20 shots at 24".
At the end of the day you can poo poo them all you like, but they help me kill Riptides.
This thread is ostensibly about Riptides, right?
Oh silly me. That's a great idea. If there's one thing Tau struggle with, it is killing MEQ at rapid fire range. Those 28 point models will last at least 3 turns with that tactic!
I'll settle for having models left on turn 4. The denial runs so deep with so many tau players.
No, the real problem is your inability to come up with something else than foot-slogging tacticals and piecemeal reserves. Projecting upcoming changes in 8th to explain your inability to beat Tau now doesn't make it better.
I'll settle for having models left on turn 4. The denial runs so deep with so many tau players.
No, the real problem is your inability to come up with something else than foot-slogging tacticals and piecemeal reserves. Projecting upcoming changes in 8th to explain your inability to beat Tau now doesn't make it better.
You really think anyone uses footslogging tacticals anymore?
You can't use stormraven heavy lists vs the field. It doesn't work and i don't list tailor.
Martel732 wrote: I'll settle for having models left on turn 4. The denial runs so deep with so many tau players.
Go ahead. Buy four stormravens and then weep when dfts becomes the actual rules in 8th. The reserve penalties and lack of skyfire will kill that list.
To be fair, Ushtarador seems to be pointedly hitting a common theme in this thread. Its your army versus infinite points and units of Tau.. 10 riptides to a field never scattering, with a HUGE army of support broadsides, markerlights from nowhere etc always available to back up and get 150 hits on overwatch... You, Martel, are probably less guilty than others, but 2000 points in riptides isn't realistic. And us tau players are basically sick of the assumption of always best case scenario for our riptides, always getting everything off, always have bs30 ignore cover shred rending instant death overwatch.. . At this point maybe we need to define a points level and a realistic army being fielded, or provide a baseline army-list to have the conversation around.
Martel if you exclude vehicles because they are usually scrap against Tau, if you exclude Droppods and such because ot interceptor.. what else is there left in your Dex?
Oh silly me. That's a great idea. If there's one thing Tau struggle with, it is killing MEQ at rapid fire range. Those 28 point models will last at least 3 turns with that tactic!
You can be as glib as you like, but I've got a pretty good record against Tau and their Riptide Formation using Drop Dev Gravs. Not to mention their capability against Wraithknights. It's going to be difficult to convince me that the unit that's been effective for me is bad.
Sure they take a ton of fire, every unit takes a ton of fire against Tau. But not many units have so many 2+ re-roll to wound, AP 2 shots against Riptides. Get them up there, soak some interceptor, do some damage.
You forgot that your drop pod devastators will be pie-plated to death by the 5 riptides, while your Furiosos get blown up by the other 5. Or something like that.
Ohhh, theory-hammer, where there is no terrain and LOS to all.
Or deploy your models around his models, then he can't place the pie-plate. Anywhere he can put the template will still have a good chance to blast himself.
I don't play BA, so I wouldn't be using Furiosos.
Martel732 wrote: Grav devs don't even survive vs ba, one of the worst shooting lists in the game.
It's not about surviving, it's about performing their given task.
This meme got old around 15 pages ago, give it a break.
Not until they change the rules to the Riptide or make it way more expensive for its insane durability.
"It's not about surviving, it's about performing their given task."
They don't do that much damage, either. I can beat skyhammer lists about half the time with frickin BA. You can't tell me that Tau even blink at drop grav devs.
Oh silly me. That's a great idea. If there's one thing Tau struggle with, it is killing MEQ at rapid fire range. Those 28 point models will last at least 3 turns with that tactic!
You can be as glib as you like, but I've got a pretty good record against Tau and their Riptide Formation using Drop Dev Gravs. Not to mention their capability against Wraithknights. It's going to be difficult to convince me that the unit that's been effective for me is bad.
Sure they take a ton of fire, every unit takes a ton of fire against Tau. But not many units have so many 2+ re-roll to wound, AP 2 shots against Riptides. Get them up there, soak some interceptor, do some damage.
I literally just did the math. As long as the Riptide has FNP, even without the 3++ power, 10 Devastators with 4 Grav Cannons out of a Pod statistically fail to kill it.
You can have all the anecdotal events you want, but bring that to an actual tournament and see how far you go.
You forgot that your drop pod devastators will be pie-plated to death by the 5 riptides, while your Furiosos get blown up by the other 5. Or something like that.
Ohhh, theory-hammer, where there is no terrain and LOS to all.
Or deploy your models around his models, then he can't place the pie-plate. Anywhere he can put the template will still have a good chance to blast himself.
I don't play BA, so I wouldn't be using Furiosos.
Martel732 wrote: Grav devs don't even survive vs ba, one of the worst shooting lists in the game.
It's not about surviving, it's about performing their given task.
So your answer to Riptides is a Devestator squad filled with Grav Cannons. So lets do the math on that. Drop ship +10 Dev Marines including 4 Grav Cannons with Amps = 315pts. You then deepstrike them within 12in of a Riptide (hit or miss, Terrain and army placement determine if this can be done and whether or not it will scatter to far away.) For arguments sake lets say it lands exactly where it is supposed to go. 12 shots at BS4 = 8 hits. With a 2+ to wound with rerolls lets say 8 wounds. Against a 5++ and a 5+++ that is 4wounds on average. If the Riptide has a 3++ it goes down to about 2 wounds on average. That leaves a 315pt SM unit exposed to enemy fire for the entire next turn.
Ushtarador wrote: By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.
Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/
.... Sorta'? Besides an invisible super-friends star, mostly yes. Playing intentional de-optimized lists/fluffy lists against friendly opponents doing the same actually brings the game back into a more even balance/not determined by turn 2 whomever goes first. But so many units wield so powerful of weapons across the board, you get 1 shot to use your best unit against theirs, and if you fail, they will do the same back and if they kill yours, you are "Short On Luck"
Ushtarador wrote: By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.
Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/
To be fair, the tau get pretty damn close sometimes. How many times can I afford to let an ion accelerator fire? The best answer is zero, but that's not realistic because of interceptor.
The Riptide is an absolute travesty when you compare to how many IKs my BA have oneshotted turn 1 from deep strike. IKs that are way more expensive, I might add.
Don't forget I have to kill all the HYMP, too, or my army also disintegrates.
"either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/"
This is not true against most lists, but against Tau, you really need to cause catastrophic damage quickly to avoid being tabled. I can take my time more with Necrons or DA.
So your answer to Riptides is a Devestator squad filled with Grav Cannons. So lets do the math on that. Drop ship +10 Dev Marines including 4 Grav Cannons with Amps = 315pts. You then deepstrike them within 12in of a Riptide (hit or miss, Terrain and army placement determine if this can be done and whether or not it will scatter to far away.) For arguments sake lets say it lands exactly where it is supposed to go. 12 shots at BS4 = 8 hits. With a 2+ to wound with rerolls lets say 8 wounds. Against a 5++ and a 5+++ that is 4wounds on average. If the Riptide has a 3++ it goes down to about 2 wounds on average. That leaves a 315pt SM unit exposed to enemy fire for the entire next turn.
Gee golly, I sure guess you're right. All these things that have been working for me must not really work then.
Ushtarador wrote: By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.
Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/
Yup. Exalted! It's a good thing that my entire army isn't only relying on a single unit to execute the entire battle plan.
To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.
Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.
Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.
You forgot the step where you run out of army because Tau.
Also, wounding a Riptide is just about the least effective thing you can do against Tau. The best I've done is ignoring the Riptides and trying to kill the mortal units, but I still ending up running out of models, despite leading in points by a pretty wide margin.
This is not true against most lists, but against Tau, you really need to cause catastrophic damage quickly to avoid being tabled
That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.
That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.
I agree big time. If you can manage to get there and start tying stuff up in CC and taking out support units you can start to peel away their effectiveness pretty nicely.
But its not something that's easy to half-***, you basically gotta just get up in there with everything you have.
So your answer to Riptides is a Devestator squad filled with Grav Cannons. So lets do the math on that. Drop ship +10 Dev Marines including 4 Grav Cannons with Amps = 315pts. You then deepstrike them within 12in of a Riptide (hit or miss, Terrain and army placement determine if this can be done and whether or not it will scatter to far away.) For arguments sake lets say it lands exactly where it is supposed to go. 12 shots at BS4 = 8 hits. With a 2+ to wound with rerolls lets say 8 wounds. Against a 5++ and a 5+++ that is 4wounds on average. If the Riptide has a 3++ it goes down to about 2 wounds on average. That leaves a 315pt SM unit exposed to enemy fire for the entire next turn.
Gee golly, I sure guess you're right. All these things that have been working for me must not really work then.
Ushtarador wrote: By using math I showed you that my xxx points unit does not manage to destroy your xxx points unit in 1 turn. I can't win.
Because that's how warhammer works, either you kill your opponent's army in 1 turn or you lose. Oh my :/
Yup. Exalted! It's a good thing that my entire army isn't only relying on a single unit to execute the entire battle plan.
To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.
Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.
Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.
You are right. Your handful of games are not anecdotal at all. Statistically you are unlikely to kill a riptide with a single round of shooting from a Dev squad armed with Grav cannons.
Couple things.
1: I don't play SMs I play Orks, I have zero answers to a riptide.
2: I never said you have to kill your opponents ENTIRE ARMY TURN 1. What I did point out was that your own example of how you kill a Riptide Turn 2 with your deep striking Dev squad won't work statistically.
3: Your plan literally doesn't work for MOST armies.
This is not true against most lists, but against Tau, you really need to cause catastrophic damage quickly to avoid being tabled
That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.
Except it doesn't. Because Riptide is immortal and doesn't crumble at all. Short of a D-chainsaw to the face.
All assault lists are constantly pushed back by the casualty rules. The longer the game goes, the more and more ground is lost to Tau shooting.
That's just the amazingly skewed perception people have against Tau - when in fact it's exactly the other way around. Tau is the army that needs to deal enough damage during the first 2 turns, because the army gets significantly less effective when parts are killed off.
Especially vs marines, if a Tau hasn't killed half the army by turn 2 he is generally gonna lose. It will always feel like losing during the first 2 turns, but a tau army crumbles incredibly fast if taken on correctly.
I agree big time. If you can manage to get there and start tying stuff up in CC and taking out support units you can start to peel away their effectiveness pretty nicely.
But its not something that's easy to half-***, you basically gotta just get up in there with everything you have.
There is literally no list better at getting everything across the board than the BA. Except armies of pure bikers like DA. And it's still not nearly enough. Assaulting 50 fire warriors with one lone surviving marine isn't cutting it.
" I have zero answers to a riptide. "
You lose less per pieplate. That's your answer. Unfulfilling, but an answer.
" If you can manage to get there"
One of the biggest ifs in 40K. Also up there with catching Eldar jetbikes in CC.
There is literally no list better at getting everything across the board than the BA. Except armies of pure bikers like DA. And it's still not nearly enough. Assaulting 50 fire warriors with one lone surviving marine isn't cutting it.
Are you being hyperbolic here, or literal? because someone bringing 5 squads of nearly max size firewarriors is wasting a lot of points... and really makes baal preds and eradicator russes way more useful in force destruction. In most lists that is 500 points in non-obsec troops, and with your 2 riptide minimum thats over 900 points, with 410 wasted/de-optimized
There is literally no list better at getting everything across the board than the BA. Except armies of pure bikers like DA. And it's still not nearly enough. Assaulting 50 fire warriors with one lone surviving marine isn't cutting it.
Are you being hyperbolic here, or literal? because someone bringing 5 squads of nearly max size firewarriors is wasting a lot of points... and really makes baal preds and eradicator russes way more useful in force destruction. In most lists that is 500 points in non-obsec troops, and with your 2 riptide minimum thats over 900 points, with 410 wasted/de-optimized
Yes, I'm being hyperbolic. But I've had my straggling survivors lose a ton of CCs to firewarriors. WS and init are both garbage stats. Tau aren't that bad at CC. And this is against furious charge marines.
You.. lost to ws 2 I2 s3 ap- 1a ld7 stat line in CC?
but that's hitting you on 4/5's wounding on 5s 3+ saves against.. with a full squad that's 6 hits 2 wounds before saves....
A non-commander crisis suit is still hitting on 4/5's, wounding on 3's, ap -, so a squad of 3 will bring 6/7 attacks hit 3/4, wound 2/3 with full saves, i just don't understand where the good CC is coming from, outside of farisght, and a inordinately expensive commander build..
I've lost to it many times because I only get one or two marines into CC. The CC doesn't have to be good when you've killed 90% of the opponent by shooting. The Riptide is actually better at CC than almost anything in my codex, including my dreadnoughts.
Tau hit marines on 4's almost universally. Even vets and terminators don't get WS 5. Because reasons.
You are right. Your handful of games are not anecdotal at all. Statistically you are unlikely to kill a riptide with a single round of shooting from a Dev squad armed with Grav cannons.
Couple things.
1: I don't play SMs I play Orks, I have zero answers to a riptide.
2: I never said you have to kill your opponents ENTIRE ARMY TURN 1. What I did point out was that your own example of how you kill a Riptide Turn 2 with your deep striking Dev squad won't work statistically.
3: Your plan literally doesn't work for MOST armies.
Sure my games are anecdotal, I don't claim otherwise. However I will claim that statistics around units operating in isolation is far from the whole picture. If an army has multiple Riptides, and one of them doesn't manage to get it's shield up, that's the one you go for, and back up your attack with something else in the 1500+ points you have left over.
1. For an argument involving Grav Devs, it doesn't matter that you play Orks.
2. Devs may not statistically do it themselves, but on the table they sometimes will (because dice) and if they don't, they should have backup anyways (because use-of-brain). Your statistical point is moot.
3. I focus primarily on my army, because that's what I know and play best. Obviously most armies don't have Drop Pods and Grav Cannons, so they would have to use different tools. If Orks truly do not have any tools, then I'm sorry. But I'll also say that I've seen a lot of people claim that they don't have the tools when they actually have perfectly viable answers. They just want someone else's tools instead of their own.
Insectum7 wrote: To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.
Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.
Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.
I truly hope that this is a joke, but I have a sinking feeling that people believe it to be true.
Step one should never to be to target the Riptide. Step one should be to kill the markerlights. With them gone, the BS10 Ignores Cover Pieplates of doom disappear.
You are right. Your handful of games are not anecdotal at all. Statistically you are unlikely to kill a riptide with a single round of shooting from a Dev squad armed with Grav cannons.
Couple things.
1: I don't play SMs I play Orks, I have zero answers to a riptide.
2: I never said you have to kill your opponents ENTIRE ARMY TURN 1. What I did point out was that your own example of how you kill a Riptide Turn 2 with your deep striking Dev squad won't work statistically.
3: Your plan literally doesn't work for MOST armies.
Sure my games are anecdotal, I don't claim otherwise. However I will claim that statistics around units operating in isolation is far from the whole picture. If an army has multiple Riptides, and one of them doesn't manage to get it's shield up, that's the one you go for, and back up your attack with something else in the 1500+ points you have left over.
1. For an argument involving Grav Devs, it doesn't matter that you play Orks.
2. Devs may not statistically do it themselves, but on the table they sometimes will (because dice) and if they don't, they should have backup anyways (because use-of-brain). Your statistical point is moot.
3. I focus primarily on my army, because that's what I know and play best. Obviously most armies don't have Drop Pods and Grav Cannons, so they would have to use different tools. If Orks truly do not have any tools, then I'm sorry. But I'll also say that I've seen a lot of people claim that they don't have the tools when they actually have perfectly viable answers. They just want someone else's tools instead of their own.
The one with out the shield up is the one I did the math on that you won't statistically kill.
So how many back up plans are you supposed to have? It isn't hard for a riptide to kill that unit. Bikers might not be close enough. You can ignore Sternguard for a round before you need to kill them.
_ghost_ wrote: Riptides? i thought you were reffering to tons of firewarriors?!
Martel it is getting confusing.
eihter you are exaggerating by so many times it gets ridiculous or.. you are one of the most bad players that i have ever heard of.
in both ways... ts very exhausting talking with you about tau
Ironically he is right about that, but I guess its hard to see that with those fish eyes
2 Tactical Marines versus 6 Firewarriors. Tacs get 2 attacks on the charge (Photon Grenades) hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s. so lets say 1 wound, Tau get a 4+ so thats a 50/50 to not even suffer a single wound.
6 Firewarriors get 6 attacks hitting on 4s (3 hits) wounding on 5s (1 wound) against a 3+ armor save = 1/3rd chance to inflict a wound. So yeah...I would say that on average SMs don't have much chance in CC when they finally get there.
Against a riptide? Well your just pissing into the wind if you think 2 Marines will win that fight. On average the Riptide won't suffer any damage and will kill at least 1 marine a turn S6 AP2.
Insectum7 wrote: To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.
Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.
Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.
I truly hope that this is a joke, but I have a sinking feeling that people believe it to be true.
Step one should never to be to target the Riptide. Step one should be to kill the markerlights. With them gone, the BS10 Ignores Cover Pieplates of doom disappear.
To be fair, even removing the Markerlights now isn't a great answer. It makes it so you won't see BS10 certainly, but...
A Fireteam of three Riptides is +1 BS(4).
A Fireteam of three Riptides, firing as part of a Coordinated Firepower Attack is at an additional +1BS(5).
So either way , there is still ways for Riptides to not be as affected by the loss of their Markerlights.
Insectum7 wrote: To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.
Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.
Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.
I truly hope that this is a joke, but I have a sinking feeling that people believe it to be true.
Step one should never to be to target the Riptide. Step one should be to kill the markerlights. With them gone, the BS10 Ignores Cover Pieplates of doom disappear.
To be fair, even removing the Markerlights now isn't a great answer. It makes it so you won't see BS10 certainly, but...
A Fireteam of three Riptides is +1 BS(4).
A Fireteam of three Riptides, firing as part of a Coordinated Firepower Attack is at an additional +1BS(5).
So either way , there is still ways for Riptides to not be as affected by the loss of their Markerlights.
People seem to be forgetting that Markerlights aren't used primarily for increasing BS they are used for deleting Cover saves. Nothing like watching your handful of units without T-shirts with decent weapons getting dakka'd off the table because they ignore armor and cover save and double out your T value........
Insectum7 wrote: To take on Riptides, Step 1: Hurt the Riptides while attempting to mitigate their response effectiveness.
Step 2: Continue hurting the Riptides while mitigating their response effectiveness.
Step 3: Same as above, muster everything you have to continue hurting the Riptides until they are dead, or victory is achieved.
I truly hope that this is a joke, but I have a sinking feeling that people believe it to be true.
Step one should never to be to target the Riptide. Step one should be to kill the markerlights. With them gone, the BS10 Ignores Cover Pieplates of doom disappear.
To be fair, even removing the Markerlights now isn't a great answer. It makes it so you won't see BS10 certainly, but...
A Fireteam of three Riptides is +1 BS(4).
A Fireteam of three Riptides, firing as part of a Coordinated Firepower Attack is at an additional +1BS(5).
So either way , there is still ways for Riptides to not be as affected by the loss of their Markerlights.
People seem to be forgetting that Markerlights aren't used primarily for increasing BS they are used for deleting Cover saves. Nothing like watching your handful of units without T-shirts with decent weapons getting dakka'd off the table because they ignore armor and cover save and double out your T value........
That's true, but Carl specifically brought up the BS10 bit so that was the part I really wanted to address.
Not much when they have a 4++ and are spaced out properly. I'm not the only one advocating this, but you are mysteriously absent on those threads. Start winning with tanks or be silent about them.
These people are talking about deep striking marines with 35 pt guns within 12" of these things. Very, very different. Let's say the blast template covers and wounds seven guardsmen. You just lost the point value of a GUN we are giving a marine in this discussion. Now imagine pie plating that marine's squad full of these guns.
No idea what a D99 is, but I do agree that Scions are largely worthless.
D99 is the Elysian list from Imperial Armour 4. It has some pretty significant downsides to it though(I don't have the book; skimmed it awhile ago. I'll let someone else do the specifics) in regards to the list beyond its organization from what i recall.
These people are talking about deep striking marines with 35 pt guns within 12" of these things. Very, very different. Let's say the blast template covers and wounds seven guardsmen. You just lost the point value of a GUN we are giving a marine in this discussion. Now imagine pie plating that marine's squad full of these guns.
>not buying drop pod to get within 12"
>putting his marines in perfect pie plate formation
>not putting his marines within 1" of enemy models so they can't be target of pie plates
There's only so many ways you can arrange small squads of marines.
Yes, SOMETIMES you can get the whole squad within 1". But not usually.
The real marine counter to Tau is Gladius, not skyhammer. Don't bother killing much, just score all the points and spam more stuff than can be killed, even by Tau.
So how many back up plans are you supposed to have?
1850 - (cost of DropGravDevs) worth of backup plans. Units used in isolation are wasted units.
To be fair, with the shield up, and if they know you have grav devs, they will bring the shield up, you need to put in 945 points worth of grav cents to kill ONE tide.
ONE. (Technically it's like 2.5 will do it but still). In formation the Tide will usually have it's shields up.
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
That's not including the fact that you will be relatively squished together since you can't run and want to be within 12" of the tide when you land. The tides, popping their formation, will fire 4 times at your relatively bunched up marines and do quite a bit of damage.
So you've killed ~250 points and they've killed 600. You're now down on attrition and given them 28ppm that have the same defenses as 5ppm against them, relatively bunched up, for them to fire at.
I play Tau and marines, I don't know anyone who uses grav devs. They are awful, grav is only good on a relentless platform, which is why you see them on bikes and cents, and not much else. Do you not play vanilla marines? Why wouldn't you take cents over dev?
50 Firewarriors is crazy town. The dice must be against you, FW are simply not that great to be spammed to that extent.
A fire warriror does the following assuming MEQ, Squads of 10 (just easier honestly)
1/2*2/3*1/3 = 2/18, or 1/9. It takes 5 of them rapid firing to get one guy. A squad of them can expect to kill 2 marines.
With MLs 5/6*2/3*1/3 = 10/54 or 5/27. It takes 3 of them rapid firing to get one guy. A squad will kill 3-4, and you've spent two lights to do this.
A typical Tau army will get 2-3 turns of firing on a basic solider. Most MLs aren't wasted on warriors, so figure 3 dead marines per squad (1 shot won't be at rapid fire range).
Take that to 50, and a full army rapid firing kills 1.5 squads with ML support, 1 squad without. That's...something? I mean, marines aren't much better if you break it down by ppm but the marines want to reach the front lines. Granted, I assume a rhino and the marines are more expensive than the warriors due to the bells and whistles, but you can get 30-40 marines for the 50 FW and get there okay. Not great, but you can reach it. FnP helps a lot.
Cents are a whole other story. Cents can pop tides really well, but not devs. I'm surprised someone is claiming their few games trumps the math that heavily, and claiming math is a moot point because dice.
By that logic, a tactical squad can kill tides every turn no problem. Just roll them dice or send more dudes in
FW in general just aren't scary for marines. They do good work against hordes with bad saves, which is something the suits can struggle against, but against marines?
If that's your experience that's fair, I'm not going to challenge that.
I'm just pointing out that adding hyperbole to an argument doesn't do anything in this type of thing. I don't see the point, it just raises hackles and weakens your position.
It's also difficult to point out that one person is wrong for using an anecdote to argue against math, and then to turn around and do the same in a different position. I mean, I get it, I roll WAY under average on armor saves and my marines feel super weak because of it, but I can't bring that to an argument here.
If I say "A cent pops 2 riptides a turn" and the math shows 1.87 tides dead, that's fine. Maybe I roll a little hot or remember the good times, but I'm not crazy. But if I say "I can kill a wraithknight with 4 lascannons" well...that's how you get mutilator threads.
Ok, let's just say we are playing a 1850 game. And your opponent brings a tau army with riptides. He might bring a riptide wing, which means he won't have enough points to bring a hunter contingent, which means, his riptides are only BS3 unless the riptides fire at the same unit as the previous riptide. So kill off the markerlights. You have never see how many times a riptide blast scatters away making the 200 point model waste a turn or 2. Also, if you bring marines, why not take the white scars artifact that ignores cover on your bikes with grav? Take a captain on a bike with them to soak up some damage and also a apothecary to give him feel no pain and as a ablative wound.
Khorne daemonkin with 2 bloodthirsters also give tau some pause also, especially now that there can be renegade knights in a chaos army. This means that they have to wonder what to shoot at. The knight? The bloodthirsters? And they normally reach within 2 turns. I doubt the tau has enough firepower to take them all down, especially when the khorne hounds are also rushing forward. Oh and Kharne can destroy riptides easily, especially if they are a unit of riptides.
Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
Lastly, if you are playing against tau in a kill everything game, then you are definitely playing to your disadvantage. Tau are meant to destroy as many as they can in the first few turns before they get overwhelmed. And if you are playing with maelstrom, that makes them worse as they will struggle to cap points because, firstly, riptides are no objective secured, and secondly, shooting the devs may not be in the tau player's best interest, and therefore, they might live longer than you expect and do much more.
Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
29 boyz and a Nob with PK = 215pts about the same price as the Riptide.
Turn 1 orks lose 7ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 4 = 10 inches closer to the riptide
TUrn 2: Orks lose 6ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 3 = 9 inches closer to the riptide
Turn 3: Orks lose another 5ish boyz to the riptide, take a morale test, fail lose another 2 boyz, Call A Waaagh, move 6, run 4 and assault 7, lets say by a miracle they get the charge off. Riptide fires another round of over watch at BS3 because of nearby Pathfinders/Firewarriors/drones whatever. Kills another boy.
So boyz are now down to 8 boyz and a Nob. Riptide swings first kills 1 boy, 7 boyz swing back 28 attacks, 18ish hits 3 wounds against 2+ armor and 5+ FNP = ZERO Wounds. Nob swings with his 4 Attacks, hits with 3 wounds with all 3 and against a 3++ and 5+++ = 1 Wound. Drawn combat.
So from that point onward the riptide is useless because its going to get stuck in CC for the rest of the game but hey thats fine.
Also thats not taking into account the fact that the riptide IS FASTER THEN BOYZ so it can run away easily, its also not taking into account a number of other things like playing an actual game.
Just out of curiosity how exactly are the Orks killing all the markerlights? I am seriously asking because I have yet to find a way to do that effectively with orks.
SemperMortis wrote: Riptide fires another round of over watch at BS3 because of nearby Pathfinders/Firewarriors/drones whatever.
**EXPLETIVES DELETED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION**
Well remember, riptides are Always within 6" of markerlight units to provide overarching no exceptions.
The problem was that he was saying why a unit that costs as much as a riptide would lose when that riptide is supported by MORE points of Tau support. Sorry, but I don't support my models in this way on account that I don't want a disordered charge potentially locking down multiple units in combat, where they very rarely survive until the next turn.
More, it isn't a fair comparison when you compare 2 units then assume that one is getting additional support from another unit.
Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
29 boyz and a Nob with PK = 215pts about the same price as the Riptide.
Turn 1 orks lose 7ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 4 = 10 inches closer to the riptide
TUrn 2: Orks lose 6ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 3 = 9 inches closer to the riptide
Turn 3: Orks lose another 5ish boyz to the riptide, take a morale test, fail lose another 2 boyz, Call A Waaagh, move 6, run 4 and assault 7, lets say by a miracle they get the charge off. Riptide fires another round of over watch at BS3 because of nearby Pathfinders/Firewarriors/drones whatever. Kills another boy.
So boyz are now down to 8 boyz and a Nob. Riptide swings first kills 1 boy, 7 boyz swing back 28 attacks, 18ish hits 3 wounds against 2+ armor and 5+ FNP = ZERO Wounds. Nob swings with his 4 Attacks, hits with 3 wounds with all 3 and against a 3++ and 5+++ = 1 Wound. Drawn combat.
So from that point onward the riptide is useless because its going to get stuck in CC for the rest of the game but hey thats fine.
Also thats not taking into account the fact that the riptide IS FASTER THEN BOYZ so it can run away easily, its also not taking into account a number of other things like playing an actual game.
Just out of curiosity how exactly are the Orks killing all the markerlights? I am seriously asking because I have yet to find a way to do that effectively with orks.
That is a good question. Maybe even more orks in trukks perhaps? Depending on what kind of markerlights the tau player is using? If they are pathfinders, they squish pretty easily. If they are drones, well, they are with a commander, thus charging them makes alot of sense. Most of the markelight units have low Ld as well, so one dead model may change the course of the game. Also, like you said, its not taking into account a number of other things, like failed nova charges, missing the pie plates, and if there are other tau that can overwatch this unit, then that means there are another 3 to 4 units of orks that are unmolested charging into the riptide. But hey, at least now they successfully stopped a riptide from shooting for 3 other rounds, which means the orks are just as OP as the riptide, right?
Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
29 boyz and a Nob with PK = 215pts about the same price as the Riptide.
Turn 1 orks lose 7ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 4 = 10 inches closer to the riptide
TUrn 2: Orks lose 6ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 3 = 9 inches closer to the riptide
Turn 3: Orks lose another 5ish boyz to the riptide, take a morale test, fail lose another 2 boyz, Call A Waaagh, move 6, run 4 and assault 7, lets say by a miracle they get the charge off. Riptide fires another round of over watch at BS3 because of nearby Pathfinders/Firewarriors/drones whatever. Kills another boy.
So boyz are now down to 8 boyz and a Nob. Riptide swings first kills 1 boy, 7 boyz swing back 28 attacks, 18ish hits 3 wounds against 2+ armor and 5+ FNP = ZERO Wounds. Nob swings with his 4 Attacks, hits with 3 wounds with all 3 and against a 3++ and 5+++ = 1 Wound. Drawn combat.
So from that point onward the riptide is useless because its going to get stuck in CC for the rest of the game but hey thats fine.
Also thats not taking into account the fact that the riptide IS FASTER THEN BOYZ so it can run away easily, its also not taking into account a number of other things like playing an actual game.
Just out of curiosity how exactly are the Orks killing all the markerlights? I am seriously asking because I have yet to find a way to do that effectively with orks.
That is a good question. Maybe even more orks in trukks perhaps? Depending on what kind of markerlights the tau player is using? If they are pathfinders, they squish pretty easily. If they are drones, well, they are with a commander, thus charging them makes alot of sense. Most of the markelight units have low Ld as well, so one dead model may change the course of the game. Also, like you said, its not taking into account a number of other things, like failed nova charges, missing the pie plates, and if there are other tau that can overwatch this unit, then that means there are another 3 to 4 units of orks that are unmolested charging into the riptide. But hey, at least now they successfully stopped a riptide from shooting for 3 other rounds, which means the orks are just as OP as the riptide, right?
Lets do a switch game sometime, next time your near me in CT lets play. Take whatever ork units you want, i'll roflstomp you with Tau so quick you won't even get to turn 3.
Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
29 boyz and a Nob with PK = 215pts about the same price as the Riptide.
Turn 1 orks lose 7ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 4 = 10 inches closer to the riptide
TUrn 2: Orks lose 6ish boyz to the riptide, move 6 run 3 = 9 inches closer to the riptide
Turn 3: Orks lose another 5ish boyz to the riptide, take a morale test, fail lose another 2 boyz, Call A Waaagh, move 6, run 4 and assault 7, lets say by a miracle they get the charge off. Riptide fires another round of over watch at BS3 because of nearby Pathfinders/Firewarriors/drones whatever. Kills another boy.
So boyz are now down to 8 boyz and a Nob. Riptide swings first kills 1 boy, 7 boyz swing back 28 attacks, 18ish hits 3 wounds against 2+ armor and 5+ FNP = ZERO Wounds. Nob swings with his 4 Attacks, hits with 3 wounds with all 3 and against a 3++ and 5+++ = 1 Wound. Drawn combat.
So from that point onward the riptide is useless because its going to get stuck in CC for the rest of the game but hey thats fine.
Also thats not taking into account the fact that the riptide IS FASTER THEN BOYZ so it can run away easily, its also not taking into account a number of other things like playing an actual game.
Just out of curiosity how exactly are the Orks killing all the markerlights? I am seriously asking because I have yet to find a way to do that effectively with orks.
That is a good question. Maybe even more orks in trukks perhaps? Depending on what kind of markerlights the tau player is using? If they are pathfinders, they squish pretty easily. If they are drones, well, they are with a commander, thus charging them makes alot of sense. Most of the markelight units have low Ld as well, so one dead model may change the course of the game. Also, like you said, its not taking into account a number of other things, like failed nova charges, missing the pie plates, and if there are other tau that can overwatch this unit, then that means there are another 3 to 4 units of orks that are unmolested charging into the riptide. But hey, at least now they successfully stopped a riptide from shooting for 3 other rounds, which means the orks are just as OP as the riptide, right?
Lets do a switch game sometime, next time your near me in CT lets play. Take whatever ork units you want, i'll roflstomp you with Tau so quick you won't even get to turn 3.
And if you don't?
EDIT: Please create a list with a trio of riptides and see how well it does.
bleak wrote: Ok, let's just say we are playing a 1850 game. And your opponent brings a tau army with riptides. He might bring a riptide wing, which means he won't have enough points to bring a hunter contingent, which means, his riptides are only BS3 unless the riptides fire at the same unit as the previous riptide. So kill off the markerlights.
3 Riptides in formation can easily earn their points back by turn 2, 3 at worst against horde armies (who really struggle to kill the lights).
Between drones with certain equipment setups, pathfinders, and other options, I can't imagine losing all my marker lights by turn 2. Turn 3, maybe, Turn 4, yeah that happens a lot, but by then the tides are earning extra credit.
Please detail how a player should delete all the marker lights by turn 2. Keep in mind, a Riptide wing doesn't require a lot (I've honestly never used them to improve BS, just removes cover). I haven't had it happen against me save versus an eldar force that rolled hot one time.
You have never see how many times a riptide blast scatters away making the 200 point model waste a turn or 2. Also, if you bring marines, why not take the white scars artifact that ignores cover on your bikes with grav? Take a captain on a bike with them to soak up some damage and also a apothecary to give him feel no pain and as a ablative wound.
Bikes are very good against Tau. But in a competitive game, marines can bring Riptides down probably the easiest out of all the armies utilizing grav cents. Teleporting those in results in 2 dead tides.
I have also rarely seen the large blast marker scatter completely off, very rarely two turns in a row. You have not horrible odds of hitting directly, and usually the scatter is about 4". If you place it in the middle of the squad, it shouldn't scatter so far it misses everything, thanks to spacing. If they bunch up so a scatter does miss, you get more on a direct hit. For smaller stronger squads this is true, but most squads number 10 guys, or are bikes which are larger models.
Khorne daemonkin with 2 bloodthirsters also give tau some pause also, especially now that there can be renegade knights in a chaos army. This means that they have to wonder what to shoot at. The knight? The bloodthirsters? And they normally reach within 2 turns. I doubt the tau has enough firepower to take them all down, especially when the khorne hounds are also rushing forward. Oh and Kharne can destroy riptides easily, especially if they are a unit of riptides.
True enough.
No one is arguing that the Tide has NO counters. We've already listed the types of units they hate to see (Fast, Invul Saves, few units of MC, Grav). The problem is, when the list of units you hate to see is in itself broken, are you also broken? Tides might be the lowest man on the broken totem pole, but they still belong to that group. At least IMO.
Tau are also the least fun army to play against by a wide margin. I won't point to polls, but its certainly one of the reasons you see these threads instead of "Dang I hate TWC stars", even though those are arguably worse.
Orks have the weakest codex so its not really fair to compare them. But if you play, bring on a whole lot of boys with a nob with a powerclaw. Sure they will get shot to ribbons, but they will reach the tau lines turn 2. Even with overwatch, tau aren't that scary when you have already destroyed their markerlights. A riptide can kill 3 orks at best in CC, and that is if they are extremely lucky. The orks will do more and sweep the riptide. Also remember that enemy units can only ever overwatch ONCE. If you have 3-4 squad of orks with power klaw, you can then dictate which unit to destroy first.
Only orks that will reach cc by turn 2 are bikes, and they are very expensive. Also rely on cover saves, which are easy to deny for Tau. Target number one, and with 3 tides in a wing, there won't be any meaningful survivors.
Foot orks will take 3-4 turns, probably 4 since the orks will die in droves to FW when fired at from the front (1/2, 2/3 = 1/3. A squad of ten rapid firing will kill a little over 7, long range kills 3-4. In a trukk, this is nearly the whole squad, outside of a trukk they get a third round of shooting and will kill 13-17 boyz before combat with no support. That's half the squad of a large mob from ONE squad with no support).
Trukk orks can do it in 3 but Tau are very good at destroying Trukks with their guns, and don't often bring enough boyz.
Lastly, if you are playing against tau in a kill everything game, then you are definitely playing to your disadvantage. Tau are meant to destroy as many as they can in the first few turns before they get overwhelmed. And if you are playing with maelstrom, that makes them worse as they will struggle to cap points because, firstly, riptides are no objective secured, and secondly, shooting the devs may not be in the tau player's best interest, and therefore, they might live longer than you expect and do much more.
If someone ports in Grav, a unit that costs 315 points (1/6 of your army!) into my backline to wound my riptides, its hard to think of a better unit to fire at. They are marine stats but cost twice as much, and all those units are at rapid fire range.
Maybe a bike squad closing in if they are decked out for war, but my FW are most likely still firing at the grav devs, possibly some suits too.
Cents are better since they have better range and a better stat profile. You'll lose some, but not 400 points worth, and now you're up on attrition and have silenced a lot of the tides. One tide can be ignored, it's 3 in a wing that can punch a huge whole. If you do it turn 1, the tau player might not get to use his wing, costing him 4 pie plates right from the start. You've saved 1.5 squads of marines, maybe more, from one turn of shooting.
ELITES: Riptide Wing: 3x Riptide with EWO and Stim with SMS and Ion Accelerators
Crisis Suit: 2x Twin Fusion Blasters.
TROOPS: Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
FAST ATTACK: Pathfinder Team (5) Pathfinder Team (5) Pathfinder Team (4)
HEAVY SUPPORT: Broadsides (3) With TL Missile Pods and TLSMS and EWO, and 2 Shield Drones.
Attach the Commander to the Broadsides to boost there BS to 5 or to remove cover saves for those 15 S7 AP4 Range 36 Missiles which are already at BS3 and TL. Add in the 12 TL S5AP5 Missiles and that is a lot of dakka for a single unit to put out (Broadsides + Commander with 4 drones = 396pts)
Riptide wing starts out at BS4, Turn 1 the pathfinders light important stuff up and the Riptide wing makes it disappear.
Ohh and firewarriors, 15 firewarriors with S5 Range 30 rapid fire rifles and a SMS Turret which adds in another S5AP5 Ignores Cover/LOS range 30 missiles.
Battle Plan would be pretty simple and straight forward and require minimum skill/intelligence to beat most players. Since I have 3 Riptides and 3 Missile Sides with EWO I am not at all worried about deep striking units, I get a free shooting phase if you use them YAY. The Battle plan would be thus, Move backwards, fire, destroy target. Rinse and repeat until there aren't any targets left.
So, What would be your answer to that list, go ahead and list tailor to your hearts content using the Ork Codex.
Errr, how is the commander boosting the BS of the broadsides while being attached to them? Markerdrones are not networked.
Also, why does the commander have 3 missile pods when they can only fire two?
As for how to beat that with Orks? Battlewagons. Use the wagons to form an AV14 wall to provide mobile LOS blocking cover for some big mobs of boys to keep them from getting whittled down by the Fire Warriors. They'll still take some casualties from the SMS but a lot less than from SMS+Pulse.
Hang back and use Lootas to take out the pathfinders using their superior range. If you want to get Pathfinders into range to remove cover then you will have to move, which would mean snap shots for your markerlights that turn and it could take two turns for your lights to get into range, which is two turns of basically no markerlight support. Once the pathfinders are dealt with any remaining Lootas should turn their fire onto the Broadside unit to either force saves on the suits or get rid of the shield drones.
You have two fusion suits in your whole army, which can be instagibbed by rokkits, so take a unit of tankbustas in one of the wagons to take 'em out and once they're gone the Tides will have to move away from the rest of the army in order to try and get onto the flanks. Once the Crisis suits are down the next priority for rokkits is the broadsides and commander as they are both T4 so can be doubled out by the S8. Just keep forcing saves against the broadsides whilst keeping AV14 towards them to render any return fire from them useless.
Riptides can only move 6" in the movement phase so are unlikely to get into a side arc of the wagon and still be able to fire that turn, giving you a turn to react to their movement. Even if they do get into the side, they either have 3 S7 shots or 1 S8/9 large blast to get through AV12, so needing 5s to glance and 6s to pen with the S7, 5s to pen with the S8 and 4s with the S9. So at best they have a 50% chance to pen the side armour and only get one shot to do that per turn and that relies on them using NOVA on the gun and then not having the gun get hot.
ELITES:
Riptide Wing: 3x Riptide with EWO and Stim with SMS and Ion Accelerators
Crisis Suit: 2x Twin Fusion Blasters.
TROOPS:
Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
Strike Team 5x Firewarriors w/SMS Turret
FAST ATTACK:
Pathfinder Team (5)
Pathfinder Team (5)
Pathfinder Team (4)
HEAVY SUPPORT:
Broadsides (3) With TL Missile Pods and TLSMS and EWO, and 2 Shield Drones.
Attach the Commander to the Broadsides to boost there BS to 5 or to remove cover saves for those 15 S7 AP4 Range 36 Missiles which are already at BS3 and TL. Add in the 12 TL S5AP5 Missiles and that is a lot of dakka for a single unit to put out (Broadsides + Commander with 4 drones = 396pts)
Riptide wing starts out at BS4, Turn 1 the pathfinders light important stuff up and the Riptide wing makes it disappear.
Ohh and firewarriors, 15 firewarriors with S5 Range 30 rapid fire rifles and a SMS Turret which adds in another S5AP5 Ignores Cover/LOS range 30 missiles.
Battle Plan would be pretty simple and straight forward and require minimum skill/intelligence to beat most players. Since I have 3 Riptides and 3 Missile Sides with EWO I am not at all worried about deep striking units, I get a free shooting phase if you use them YAY. The Battle plan would be thus, Move backwards, fire, destroy target. Rinse and repeat until there aren't any targets left.
So, What would be your answer to that list, go ahead and list tailor to your hearts content using the Ork Codex.
Commander has not point taking 3 missile pods when he can only ever fire 2.
drone controllers don't boost broadside BS, the signature system command and control node does, and only if he doesn't fire (which is why buff-manders have no guns)
If you deploy 1st, its going to be very easy to counter deploy so few units, with even a green-tide level boys blob with a mad doc for FNP, or mek boy with kustom force field
If you deploy 2nd, 2 sources of armor 14 are going to give you trouble, as you only have 1 pair of crisis suits with melta, and those are generally suicide units. and a few naked boy squads with trukks are going to pressure the rest of your army, because it can't stand to have even 1 primary damage unit (riptide or broadsides) be bogged down for 1 turn, or you lose most of your offensive power.
3 riptides in 1 unit is not a riptide wing, its a fireteam, which is bs4, but must all shoot at the same 1 unit, as you didnt take target locks
a riptide wing is not bs4 stock, its only bs4 if you shoot a 2nd riptide at the same unit, so still inefficient shooting against msu, and must use a 2nd set of markerlights to do any removes cover for the 2nd riptide, which means all 3 pathfinder squads are shooting the same unit, which is inefficient.
Your list is bad, would lose to msu double CAD of even orks in a non-kill points game.
Against this non-optimized list it is definitely possible for an Ork to have a good game, and even win (which is what this discussion is mostly about). For a casual game this will work quite well in fact.
It is far from an optimized tournament list, but nobody disputes that Orks would have a very hard time if it were perfected to hyper-competitive levels, that's another issue.
Ushtarador wrote: Against this non-optimized list it is definitely possible for an Ork to have a good game, and even win (which is what this discussion is mostly about). For a casual game this will work quite well in fact.
It is far from an optimized tournament list, but nobody disputes that Orks would have a very hard time if it were perfected to hyper-competitive levels, that's another issue.
I agree, but it does highlight that taking 3 Riptides does not necessarily equal an auto win if the list lacks the required support elements to fill the few roles that the Riptide generally doesn't do (such as AV14 hunting).
A Town Called Malus wrote: Errr, how is the commander boosting the BS of the broadsides while being attached to them? Markerdrones are not networked.
Also, why does the commander have 3 missile pods when they can only fire two?
As for how to beat that with Orks? Battlewagons. Use the wagons to form an AV14 wall to provide mobile LOS blocking cover for some big mobs of boys. Pack the nastier units (meganobz for example) into the wagons to break the lines later
You have one fusion suit in your whole army, which can be instagibbed by rokkits, so take a unit of tankbustas in one of the wagons to take it out and once it is gone the Tides will have to move away from the rest of the army in order to try and get onto the flanks.
Riptides can only move 6" in the movement phase so are unlikely to get into a side arc of the wagon and still be able to fire that turn, giving you a turn to react to their movement.
As I said I am not a Tau player so forgive the minor mistakes. With that said, remove the extra missile from the Commander not a big deal and change the drones to Shield drones, tactic still works just fine
Ork Battlewagons are the answer you say? Well lets see. Fusion Crisis suits will on average FRAG one of those battlewagons on their turn, at AP1 and OT that means it will more then likely explode which means the occupants are 50% dead unless you used Meganobz which you suggested so lets run the list really quick
HQ: Warboss w/MA
ELITES: MegaNobz (3) w/Battlewagon Ram and 2 weapons MegaNobz (3) w/Battlewagon Ram and 2 weapons Tankbustas (6)
TROOPS: Boyz 19 with Nob/PK Boyz 19 with Nob/PK Boyz 19 with Nob/PK Boyz 12 with Nob/PK
HEAVY SUPPORT: Battlewagon w/Ram and 2 weapons
So how would that Tau List deal with this? Well, pretty simply actually. As much as you want to believe that Battlewagons block LOS they wont. SO that was a huge waste of time. The Riptides can still see the 63 Ork boyz/Nobz running behind so they can drop some pie plates on them with impunity from the back field. The Battlewagons DO have a pretty scary cargo so there is that but unfortunately you just wasted about 1/3rd of your list on big scary looking Battlewagons which don't do anything.
The Meganobz will get into assault more then likely, The Fusion Crisis suits will focus fire the Tank busta BW And they will ice it. 4 Melta shots with a couple of markerlights will hit 3 times and S8 +2D6 means on AVERAGE 3 pens. 3 Pens at +3 to explode means boom which also means 3 dead Tankbustas, which means morale test, which is a 50/50 and they don't benefit from any part of Mob Rule, they are probably running away. That means your going to have to detail either a unit of Meganobz or one of those boyz squads to killing those 2 crisis suits which probably used JSJ to run the hell away from the boyz . Those Broadsides which you forgot about now gets to pump 12 S7 shots into the side armor of at least one of the surviving Battlewagons at at least BS4. So thats 8 hits and 1/3rd chance to pen/glance means probably 1 pen and 1-2 glances. On that Pen there is a +1 because OT so its a 1/6 chance to explode and a 1/6 chance to be immobilized (which is almost as bad) and a 1/6 chance to not be able to move and snap shot the next turn and you have lost 2 Hullpoints on average.
So turn 1 you moved up the field with your army. The Riptides each fired 2 Large Blast weapons with Ignores cover (Markerlights) onto your boyz and fragged at least 5 with each large blast template so 20-30 are probably dead, at least 2 morale checks on them, 1 will fail which is another D6 dead boyz.
So before you even do anything to the Tau player with your list you have lost a BW, your Tankbustas are either running away or you have 3 left (Probably pinned) and those Ork boyz you were counting on have been gutted pretty nicely by a number of large blast templates and another battlewagon has been smacked around.
How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
I never mentioned moving up. My plan is to hang back in my deployment area, use the wagons to keep units alive whilst the Lootas outrange everything in your army but the Riptides IA. If you want to get rid of cover from my units, your markerlights have to move into the range of my guns.
If your crisis suits want to get into range of my wagons they either have to drop in or move up the board. You have nothing to prevent them from scattering and are aiming to land within 9" of the wagons which is pretty risky as if you scatter away then your suits will be sat in the open without being in melta range, which drastically reduces your chance for an instant kill. If you try to move up the board then you will have to move into range of my guns and lone crisis suits are very squishy.
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
In case you have never played an Ork player, we deploy ON THE LINE! why? because we need to get into CC as quick as possible So when those battlewagons move forward all the crisis suits have to do is go forward 6, fire off some fusion fun at range 9 or less and poof you just ruined someones day. And yes those battlewagons will be going 12 on their turn because you apparently want a horde of boyz to use them as cover and on average boyz will move and run 9-10inches which means those BWs need to move at least that to get out of the way.
Conversely if you want the Ork player to go even slower, the Battlewagons could just move 6 and give the Tau player an entire extra round of shooting...whichever floats your boat.
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
In case you have never played an Ork player, we deploy ON THE LINE! why? because we need to get into CC as quick as possible So when those battlewagons move forward all the crisis suits have to do is go forward 6, fire off some fusion fun at range 9 or less and poof you just ruined someones day. And yes those battlewagons will be going 12 on their turn because you apparently want a horde of boyz to use them as cover and on average boyz will move and run 9-10inches which means those BWs need to move at least that to get out of the way.
Conversely if you want the Ork player to go even slower, the Battlewagons could just move 6 and give the Tau player an entire extra round of shooting...whichever floats your boat.
You appear to be completely ignoring anything resembling tactics and assuming that the Ork player will just move straight forward into range when they have access to guns which are longer range. Of course the Tau will win if the Orks charge blindly into the range of all of the Tau firepower, hence why I am not doing that until the key Tau units (in this case the pathfinders) have been removed.
A Town Called Malus wrote: How are your crisis suits getting within 9" of the battlewagons in the first turn?
In case you have never played an Ork player, we deploy ON THE LINE! why? because we need to get into CC as quick as possible So when those battlewagons move forward all the crisis suits have to do is go forward 6, fire off some fusion fun at range 9 or less and poof you just ruined someones day. And yes those battlewagons will be going 12 on their turn because you apparently want a horde of boyz to use them as cover and on average boyz will move and run 9-10inches which means those BWs need to move at least that to get out of the way.
Conversely if you want the Ork player to go even slower, the Battlewagons could just move 6 and give the Tau player an entire extra round of shooting...whichever floats your boat.
You appear to be completely ignoring anything resembling tactics and assuming that the Ork player will just move straight forward into range when they have access to guns which are longer range. Of course the Tau will win if the Orks charge blindly into the range of all of the Tau firepower, hence why I am not doing that until the key Tau units (in this case the pathfinders) have been removed.
LMAO! You were the one that said those units mentioned above would beat the Tau list i provided, not me.
Fine, I put in 10 minutes to build a Tau list (albeit with some minor mistakes because I don't play Tau) Go take 10 minutes and build an Ork list with whatever you like in it. I guarantee you will still lose.
Obviously Orks can beat Riptide lists..and notice how the Ork player isn't crying about the Riptide? Then wins game? Coincidence?
You seem to think that anecdotal evidence works now...especially when its QUIRK of all people. The guy thought Lootas had 2 wounds until a couple months ago. I have previously watched this and had to stop watching all his newer Batreps because he gets so many rules wrong it hurts my brain.
So...the reason the tau player gets an easy fusion shot, is that you are on autopilot on "RUSH B" like a CS:GP player, and can't employ the slightest level of secario awareness, especially considering the fusions can't possibly be everywhere at once, and especially not while still being safe (a crisis suit is a 2-wound marine, not exactly a tank.)
Yaknow, outright saying "I am a bad player" would be quicker than that either rant.
If your solution to every single situation, in every game, regardless of your opponent, the mission, the table or even your own list(!), you might simply not be cut out for strategy games.
You are a roleplayer. you want to WAAGH and have a blast-and there is nothing wrong with that additude.
But you can't reasonably expect the game to bend backwards so that doing nonsense for funsies will be competitive against a serious well-though well-preformed strategy and tactics.
Even "simple" FPS games don't work like that. demanding it from a strategy game is outright silly.
BoomWolf wrote: So...the reason the tau player gets an easy fusion shot, is that you are on autopilot on "RUSH B" like a CS:GP player, and can't employ the slightest level of secario awareness, especially considering the fusions can't possibly be everywhere at once, and especially not while still being safe (a crisis suit is a 2-wound marine, not exactly a tank.)
Yaknow, outright saying "I am a bad player" would be quicker than that either rant.
If your solution to every single situation, in every game, regardless of your opponent, the mission, the table or even your own list(!), you might simply not be cut out for strategy games.
You are a roleplayer. you want to WAAGH and have a blast-and there is nothing wrong with that additude.
But you can't reasonably expect the game to bend backwards so that doing nonsense for funsies will be competitive against a serious well-though well-preformed strategy and tactics.
Even "simple" FPS games don't work like that. demanding it from a strategy game is outright silly.
Well since you seem to love being condescending I challenge you to the exact same contest. Build an Ork list that will Beat the above mentioned Tau list.
Also as a secondary note: What tactics would you like to use instead of "Get choppy units into choppy range". If you say something as slowed as "USE COVER! I will just ignore you for a plethora of reasons. #1 being Battlewagons are HUGE vehicles and its hard to get cover to begin with, and with that many Markerlights on the table it wouldn't take much for the Tau player to get IGNORES COVER on anything he wants.
#2 if your idea of strategy is to hide behind buildings....well no kidding, who would have thought about that!!!!
If you want to actually play the game in question then by all means come on over with that Tau list and you can use any of my ork models you want. I guarantee the results before the game even starts.
A part of my games against Tau is getting them to commit fusion suits. If they have any. I haven't yet gotten a game with them where they left them at home and I had my IK. I imagine I could win that matchup perhaps.
LMAO! You were the one that said those units mentioned above would beat the Tau list i provided, not me.
Fine, I put in 10 minutes to build a Tau list (albeit with some minor mistakes because I don't play Tau) Go take 10 minutes and build an Ork list with whatever you like in it. I guarantee you will still lose.
Except your list had zero Lootas, a unit which I pretty majorly included in my projected list due its 48" range guns which outrange everything but the IA in your list. You made your own Ork list then claimed you could beat it when it behaved in the complete opposite way to what I described.
BoomWolf wrote: So...the reason the tau player gets an easy fusion shot, is that you are on autopilot on "RUSH B" like a CS:GP player, and can't employ the slightest level of secario awareness, especially considering the fusions can't possibly be everywhere at once, and especially not while still being safe (a crisis suit is a 2-wound marine, not exactly a tank.)
Yaknow, outright saying "I am a bad player" would be quicker than that either rant. If your solution to every single situation, in every game, regardless of your opponent, the mission, the table or even your own list(!), you might simply not be cut out for strategy games. You are a roleplayer. you want to WAAGH and have a blast-and there is nothing wrong with that additude. But you can't reasonably expect the game to bend backwards so that doing nonsense for funsies will be competitive against a serious well-though well-preformed strategy and tactics. Even "simple" FPS games don't work like that. demanding it from a strategy game is outright silly.
Well since you seem to love being condescending I challenge you to the exact same contest. Build an Ork list that will Beat the above mentioned Tau list.
Also as a secondary note: What tactics would you like to use instead of "Get choppy units into choppy range". If you say something as slowed as "USE COVER! I will just ignore you for a plethora of reasons. #1 being Battlewagons are HUGE vehicles and its hard to get cover to begin with, and with that many Markerlights on the table it wouldn't take much for the Tau player to get IGNORES COVER on anything he wants.
#2 if your idea of strategy is to hide behind buildings....well no kidding, who would have thought about that!!!!
If you want to actually play the game in question then by all means come on over with that Tau list and you can use any of my ork models you want. I guarantee the results before the game even starts.
You have three units of markerlights. Each unit will only get 2 hits per turn on average. So you can remove cover for three of your units a turn and that's it. Also, the Battlewagons don't need cover against your list as if you box up (which you will to make sure you can use supporting fire) they can just keep their AV14 front to all of your guns and sit back at range plinking away at you whilst you can do nothing to hurt them other than move 2 solo crisis suits forward in the hope of getting into melta range or drop a single large blast which can either only glance or, if you use NOVA, pen on a 6.
Except your list had zero Lootas, a unit which I pretty majorly included in my projected list due its 48" range guns which outrange everything but the IA in your list. You made your own Ork list then claimed you could beat it when it behaved in the complete opposite way to what I described.
LMAO you edited your list 4 times and the last one was very recently. So lets just say I didn't see you say lootas
Fine lets throw in some lootas. 5 lootas will put out on average 10 shots with about 3 hitting each turn. those will wound on 2s but your pathfinders (unless stupid) are in cover meaning 4+ save. So 1-2 dead pathfinders a turn, if its 1 no morale check if 2 then a 50/50 so to guarantee you a morale check your going to need at least 6 Lootas.
Again, I dont know how you want to do this because your not putting in the effort of making an actual list like I have suggested. So either make the list or keep making up new reasons why Tau aren't OP as hell with riptides
You have three units of markerlights. Each unit will only get 2 hits per turn on average. So you can remove cover for three of your units a turn. Also, the Battlewagons don't need cover against your list as if you box up (which you will to make sure you can use supporting fire) they can just keep their AV14 front to all of your guns and sit back at range plinking away at you whilst you can do nothing to hurt them other than move 2 solo crisis suits forward in the hope of getting into melta range.
SO make a giant box out of AV 14 vehicles with tiny fronts and gigantic sides.....that will work
Assume you get first turn. That's 80 boys that take over the whole table and 9 warbikers that are able to hold any unit except the riptides in close combat in Turn 2. Lots of lootas that can move and shoot thanks to the mega armor, get 4+ cover behind the defense line and shoot further than the marker lights. Also, anything not AP2 can easily be tanked by the waagbosses in front. The pathfinders will be dead turn 1 unless they are out of LoS, in which case they will not be able to remove your cover in the Tau's turn.
Once the 3 riptides get stuck in Boyz they will never get out, and even if they shoot they kill a unit of 50 points at most. Actually, it is almost impossible for them to make their points back even if they shoot every turn.
Replacing the bikes with grot artillery might also work well, it is cheap and very resilient.
SO make a giant box out of AV 14 vehicles with tiny fronts and gigantic sides.....that will work
It works at 36-48 ", because your riptides are all within 6" of each other, and your broadsides with 2" and are not relentless.
And eventually they will have to move forward or just give up the game to the Tau player. And once they come forward and either go towards the Riptides who are taking up over 22+ Inches of the table (6' of each other and the base are something like 5's long) or towards the Broadside who are taking up at least 10' they will expose AV12 to massive amounts of S7 shooting or in the case of the riptides S9 pie plates (which have a 1/3rd chance to glance/pen an AV 14 vehicle). In fact boxing them up just makes them a bigger target for those S9 Pie Plates. If you can get lucky and hit 3 with 1 pieplate you have a good chance of stripping some HPs (Ordinance rolls 2D6 and takes highest) So actually that is a pretty crappy plan, opens up more Wagons to destruction by S9 ordinance
Assume you get first turn. That's 80 boys that take over the whole table and 9 warbikers that are able to hold any unit except the riptides in close combat in Turn 2. Lots of lootas that can move and shoot thanks to the mega armor, get 4+ cover behind the defense line and shoot further than the marker lights. Also, anything not AP2 can easily be tanked by the waagbosses in front. The pathfinders will be dead turn 1 unless they are out of LoS, in which case they will not be able to remove your cover in the Tau's turn. Once the 3 riptides get stuck in Boyz they will never get out, and even if they shoot they kill a unit of 50 points at most. Actually, it is almost impossible for them to make their points back even if they shoot every turn.
Replacing the bikes with grot artillery might also work well, it is cheap and very resilient.
So your attaching 2 MA Warbosses to the 2 units of lootas (BTW this no longer works if the FAQs get approved) so they can move and shoot. Your using 8 units of 10 Boyz in Trukkz without rams (they need rams trust me) and 3 units of warbikers. The only big problem I see in this is that you seem to think that your boyz will do anything when they get into CC.
So starting with the shooting phase: 10 lootas fire 20 shots hitting 7 times wounding 6 times against pathfinders in 4+ cover = 3 dead Pathfinders x2 so 1 unit is dead, 1 is reduced to 2 models but is fine because it passed its leadership test (of course this is assuming they can see their target and that it not not fighting)
On the Tau players turn each Riptide will delete a Trukk and the Broadsides will delete another one.The Firewarriors can probably take out at least another, so lets say all told 4 trukkz are taken out and of those 4 only 1 explodes. That unit loses 4 models, and is either pinned or running away (2 leadership checks at LD7 one will fail) They don't benefit from mob rule anymore because no Nob and below 10 models. Ohhh I forgot about those crisis suits, lets say they hop over and feth up another Trukk which will explode (+3 to explode) So 5 of your trukk boyz units are dismounted or destroyed.
Actually lets play the devils advocate and say that it took 2 riptides to destroy 1 trukk and 1 riptide and 3 units of firewarriors to destroy another trukk and the fusion crisis suits and the Broadsides each kill one as well. That is literally 1/2 of the trukks dead on turn 1.
Im sorry I would keep going but its pathetic. This list will not only lose it will do so spectacularly.
To be fair, with the shield up, and if they know you have grav devs, they will bring the shield up, you need to put in 945 points worth of grav cents to kill ONE tide.
ONE. (Technically it's like 2.5 will do it but still). In formation the Tide will usually have it's shields up.
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
That's not including the fact that you will be relatively squished together since you can't run and want to be within 12" of the tide when you land. The tides, popping their formation, will fire 4 times at your relatively bunched up marines and do quite a bit of damage.
So you've killed ~250 points and they've killed 600. You're now down on attrition and given them 28ppm that have the same defenses as 5ppm against them, relatively bunched up, for them to fire at.
I play Tau and marines, I don't know anyone who uses grav devs. They are awful, grav is only good on a relentless platform, which is why you see them on bikes and cents, and not much else. Do you not play vanilla marines? Why wouldn't you take cents over dev?
Cents are a whole other story. Cents can pop tides really well, but not devs. I'm surprised someone is claiming their few games trumps the math that heavily, and claiming math is a moot point because dice.
By that logic, a tactical squad can kill tides every turn no problem. Just roll them dice or send more dudes in
It doesn't make sense because your math is bizarre.
Devastator Squad, four Grav Cannons+Amps, on Drop Pod deployment: 3 shots at BS 5 (signum) 9 shots at BS 4
(Unbuffed Devs) on the move.
3 @ BS 5 (.833) = 2.5 hits 9 @ BS 4 (.666) = 6 Gives us 8.5 Hits. Converts to 8.27 wounds.
Unbuffed Riptide takes 3.67 wounds.
Centurions do 0.647 more wounds on the drop (also not killing the Riptide). I don't understand why you would think Centurions are so much better here, since they don't average even a single wound more. Devs are a little more expensive if you buy the entire squad, but they can soak more damage before losing efficacy.
Personally, I don't like Centurions because it only takes two wounds to reduce their firepower (and make them less effective on the move than the Devs). A lot of people get around this by adding a psyker to them. That's a whole different discussion though. If we're talking about buffing units then the Devastators can get Relentless with a Cataphractii Captain, in which case their damage output on the move surpasses the Cents. (Which, by the way they already do if they are able to stand still).
So why are Cents so much better if they aren't even doing a single wound more than the Devs? Are you buying a bigger squad? Are you buffing them? Are you tanking them? If you're not Podding them, how are they getting in range (without being shot at?)
The lootas were in the list from the beginning, you just overlooked them. The edits were to explain more clearly how I was going to use each unit and what role they would fulfil.
Again, none of your units have the range and mobility to make use of the large side arc if the wagons don't rush forwards. Riptides can only move 6" a turn before they fire.
Here's the list I just knocked up, comes to 1500 on the nose if my maths is right:
Spoiler:
HQ: Warboss in mega-armour
Troops: 15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher 15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher
Elites: 4 meganobz, battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
10 tankbustaz
9 kommandos with 2 burnas, nob with bosspole, Snikrot
Heavy: 15 Lootas
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Lootas and Tankbustaz start in the empty battlewagons, boyz and trukks in reserve, Kommandos with snikrot in reserve, meganobz and boss in the nobwagon.
Deploy behind the 12" line, close to our board edge. Use first turn to open up on a unit of pathfinders with the lootas (15 lootas = 15 to 45 shots = 5 to 15 hits = 4 to 13 wounds = 2 to 6 dead pathfinders if they have 4+ cover). So each turn the Lootas are pretty likely to delete or render basically useless one of your pathfinder units. If your pathfinders are in range of the wagons then that means they will be in range of the wagons kannon, so they will also potentially eat a S4 AP5 blast which could kill another one, maybe two, if it hits.
When your crisis suits try to get close enough to use their meltas then they will have to go through the range of the rokkits of the wagons and tankbustas and the kannons of the wagons. Could also shoot them with the deffguns at longer range just to be sure.
When Snikrot and the kommandos enter they will have Shrouded to protect them against your EWO fire as you have no intercepting markerlights to strip cover (the EWO will also render whatever weapon you shoot at them unusable in your next shooting phase, thanks to the interceptor rules) and will light up either the clustered fire warrior teams with the burnas if they are near the back line or they will alternatively come on from a flank to hit pathfinders.
Once the pathfinders are dealt with, the wagons move forwards to get the fire warriors in range of the deffguns (and maybe the kannons, depends on what the Riptides are doing) and start to hit them until they are either destroyed or run. Then turn attention to the Broadsides and try to force saves.
When the boyz and trucks arrive they play to the mission, going to ground in cover on objectives or just sitting behind a ruin to get cover before rushing out to snatch an objective.
Im sorry I would keep going but its pathetic. This list will not only lose it will do so spectacularly.
Are you ever playing or do you just theoryhammer and then give up? Why don't you go and collect stamps, it seems that hobby would suit your wargaming skills a lot better.
Or maybe play a "balanced" system like WarmaHordes, see how for you get without playing the mission.
I play plenty of games vs them. Admittedly, several have been close, but they are almost all tablings. I'm almost always leading in points, but I run out of army. It's super frustrating. The Tau are just too lethal vs the have-not codices. Invisibility would change a lot I think. Or free transports.
A Town Called Malus wrote: The lootas were in the list from the beginning, you just overlooked them. The edits were to explain more clearly how I was going to use each unit and what role they would fulfil.
Again, none of your units have the range and mobility to make use of the large side arc if the wagons don't rush forwards. Riptides can only move 6" a turn before they fire.
Here's the list I just knocked up, comes to 1500 on the nose if my maths is right:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Warboss in mega-armour
Troops:
15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher
15 boyz, nob with bosspole, trukk with rokkit launcher
Elites:
4 meganobz, battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
10 tankbustaz
9 kommandos with 2 burnas, nob with bosspole, Snikrot
Heavy:
15 Lootas
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Battlewagon with kannon, 4 rokkits and ram
Lootas and Tankbustaz start in the empty battlewagons, boyz and trukks in reserve, Kommandos with snikrot in reserve, meganobz and boss in the nobwagon.
Deploy behind the 12" line, close to our board edge. Use first turn to open up on a unit of pathfinders with the lootas (15 lootas = 15 to 45 shots = 5 to 15 hits = 4 to 13 wounds = 2 to 6 dead pathfinders if they have 4+ cover. So each turn the Lootas are pretty likely to delete or render basically useless one of your pathfinder units. If your pathfinders are in range of the wagons then that means they will be in range of the wagons kannon, so they will also potentially eat a S4 AP5 blast which could kill another one, maybe two, if it hits.
When your crisis suits try to get close enough to use their meltas then they will have to go through the range of the rokkits of the wagons and tankbustas and the kannons of the wagons. Could also shoot them with the deffguns at longer range just to be sure.
When Snikrot and the kommandos enter they will have Shrouded to protect them against your EWO fire as you have no intercepting markerlights to strip cover (the EWO will also render whatever you shoot at them unusable in your next shooting phase, thanks to the interceptor rules) and will light up either the clustered fire warrior teams with the burnas if they are near the back line or they will alternatively come on from a flank to hit pathfinders.
Once the pathfinders are dealt with, the wagons move forwards to get the fire warriors in range of the deffguns (and maybe the kannons, depends on what the Riptides are doing) and start to hit them until they are either destroyed or run.
When the boyz and trucks arrive they play to the mission, going to ground in cover on objectives or just sitting behind a ruin to get cover before rushing out to snatch an objective.
A couple of things right off the bat that are problematic. Trukkz only carry 12 models which is good because your list is actually about 22pts over hte limit, so deleting those 8 extra gives you 26 more pts to work with.
Secondly, Why is the Tau player just going to sit there the entire game and not light up those lootas who aren't moving? LOL With so few inviting targets on the table (3 Wagonz) on turn 1 the Tau player can pop off his special ability and fire 6 pie plates possibly with ignores cover (depending on where the markerlights are and who got 1st turn and if the lootas did anything) on top of at least one wagon, possibly 2 if you bunched them together. But lets just say 3 for now. 3 S9AP2 Ordinance pie plates will roll 2D6 3 times to pen So each shot is almost a 50/50 to penetrate/glance So lets say it does 3 HPs with only 1 pen. That pen is AP2 on an open topped so its +2 right away which means that its a 1/3rd chance to blow up worse if it rolls stunned shaken then the lootas inside have to check to see if they are snap shooting next turn. Turn 2 if you come in from reserve your either going to be in deep cover or your going to be dead because of the plethora of EWO and if your in deep cover your probably not in a position for me to worry about you to much except a throwaway squad of Fire warriors so I will gladly ignore you for the EWO and wait for my turn to light them up with the Pathfinders still alive.
So at the end of 2 turns you will have lost your lootas battlewagon, probably a lot of the lootas after it explodes or they bail out, and you will have made ZERO Headway closing the distance. your plan is flawed from the very start dude your relying on at least 3 turns to close the distance and Tau never give you that much time.
Im sorry I would keep going but its pathetic. This list will not only lose it will do so spectacularly.
Are you ever playing or do you just theoryhammer and then give up? Why don't you go and collect stamps, it seems that hobby would suit your wargaming skills a lot better.
Or maybe play a "balanced" system like WarmaHordes, see how for you get without playing the mission.
I don't play as much these days admittedly, but I still play a couple times a month if not more. I have a lot of experience playing my orks and I know their limitation. You lot seem to think Orks can survive against riptides where as the fact is that they cannot.
I never said the boyz were in the trukks. There's no requirement that the unit has to actually be able to fit in its dedicated transport, just that no other unit may start deployed in that transport.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I never said the boyz were in the trukks. There's no requirement that the unit has to actually be able to fit in its dedicated transport.
Ahh relying on an OT AV10 vehicle to play objectives while 3 riptides and a unit of Broadsides are still in play and basically unmolested.
Your entire list is you trying to out dakka and out tank the Tau. That is a doomed tactic from the start LMAO
I don't play as much these days admittedly, but I still play a couple times a month if not more. I have a lot of experience playing my orks and I know their limitation. You lot seem to think Orks can survive against riptides where as the fact is that they cannot.
Yeah, the bottom most codex that struggles against dark eldar, another bottom tier codex, is going to have a bad time. Your qq about that is stale. The relative power of the riptide compared to codex: Orks is not a reasonable comparison. But the fact is, taking no riptides, those 675 points can go towards other units/ formations that will hurt orks significantly more effectively and efficiently. The riptide isn't even really the problem in a OvT match up. Its gonna kill 1 thing dead, where you could have 2 units kill 2 things dead for same points.
I don't play as much these days admittedly, but I still play a couple times a month if not more. I have a lot of experience playing my orks and I know their limitation. You lot seem to think Orks can survive against riptides where as the fact is that they cannot.
Yeah, the bottom most codex that struggles against dark eldar, another bottom tier codex, is going to have a bad time. Your qq about that is stale. The relative power of the riptide compared to codex: Orks is not a reasonable comparison. But the fact is, taking no riptides, those 675 points can go towards other units/ formations that will hurt orks significantly more effectively and efficiently. The riptide isn't even really the problem in a OvT match up. Its gonna kill 1 thing dead, where you could have 2 units kill 2 things dead for same points.
Couple things Puma, saying someone is "QQing" when they are disagreeing with someone is generally considered to be rude.
Secondly if you honestly believe that then I am not talking to you. I am talking to people like Malus who think an Ork list can take on a riptide wing and win.
Martel732 wrote: I play plenty of games vs them. Admittedly, several have been close, but they are almost all tablings. I'm almost always leading in points, but I run out of army. It's super frustrating. The Tau are just too lethal vs the have-not codices. Invisibility would change a lot I think. Or free transports.
Or simply a half-decent codex with proper point costs for their units/upgrades and less nonesense trap choices like 4 ppm for a 4+ armor. (will someone explain how it makes sense a boy and a warboss both pay the same for armor!?)
I mean, it has some decent choices around. its not FAR from being a good codex, it just needs a properly placed nudge and things start falling into place on their own.
Slightly cheaper armor/weapon upgrades, some tweaks on the specialist orks and maybe a tiny buff here and there and they can cross the gap that pulls them back of having not enough survive until they hit the enemy.
Quite a few ork options are in the "decent" spectrum.
I honestly have a hard time pointing out exactly where the problem is. most units I look at appear to be sorta good, nothing top tier-but defiantly not beyond salvation.most need only a point or three off (per model), or even simply access to upgrades to be really good units. (there are some utter derps, but not many. most are units are definatly at the "almost" realm)
Take stormboyz for example. they are rather cheap, and pretty fast. could they take even some simple upgrades like flamers-they could be quite good.
Regular boys-make the armor cost 2, and give them a minor treat (say increase the special weapon count to one in five and put big choppas as options) and they are suddenly really nice.
Bikers-once you accept that the 'ard armor is a 2 point upgrade rather than 4, they naturally drop 2 points, and at 16 they aint bad. knock them down to 15 and they are really good.
There are other examples of units that a minor change turns them really different.
Martel732 wrote: I play plenty of games vs them. Admittedly, several have been close, but they are almost all tablings. I'm almost always leading in points, but I run out of army. It's super frustrating. The Tau are just too lethal vs the have-not codices. Invisibility would change a lot I think. Or free transports.
Or simply a half-decent codex with proper point costs for their units/upgrades and less nonesense trap choices like 4 ppm for a 4+ armor. (will someone explain how it makes sense a boy and a warboss both pay the same for armor!?)
I mean, it has some decent choices around. its not FAR from being a good codex, it just needs a properly placed nudge and things start falling into place on their own. Slightly cheaper armor/weapon upgrades, some tweaks on the specialist orks and maybe a tiny buff here and there and they can cross the gap that pulls them back of having not enough survive until they hit the enemy.
Quite a few ork options are in the "decent" spectrum. I honestly have a hard time pointing out exactly where the problem is. most units I look at appear to be sorta good, nothing top tier-but defiantly not beyond salvation.most need only a point or three off (per model), or even simply access to upgrades to be really good units. (there are some utter derps, but not many. most are units are definatly at the "almost" realm) Take stormboyz for example. they are rather cheap, and pretty fast. could they take even some simple upgrades like flamers-they could be quite good. Regular boys-make the armor cost 2, and give them a minor treat (say increase the special weapon count to one in five and put big choppas as options) and they are suddenly really nice. Bikers-once you accept that the 'ard armor is a 2 point upgrade rather than 4, they naturally drop 2 points, and at 16 they aint bad. knock them down to 15 and they are really good. There are other examples of units that a minor change turns them really different.
I agree with most of this. Unfortunately none of those small buffs will in any meaningful way increase the odds of killing a riptide wing. A single Riptide can be dealt with either by target saturation or by simply ignoring it and letting it poke holes in your army. But against 2+ or a Wing it becomes a different beast entirely.
I think every top tier codex has 1 or 2 units that are auto-includes and are usually OP in some way. Orks really don't have that. Our best units are S3 BS2 Warbikers who are more deadly at shooting (with a S5 BS2 weapon) then at CC where apparently we shine. Our other best units are Tankbustas which I have never really liked, to costly for what they can do/how squishy they are and maybe Meganobz, which while not great are at least OK and not in need of a huge buff, I would say they rate about the same as terminators.
As for stormboyz, if they could take 4+ armor or maybe get the old warbiker rule of +1 to cover saves (Exhaust Cloud) that would make them good.
Regardless unless Orks get some kind of super unit to put alongside Wraith Knights, Riptides/Stormsurges, TWC/Wulfen, and the like we really don't have a chance against those kind of builds.
Martel732 wrote: You'll never make it into a position to do those wounds without external buffs. That's why i say they aren't good.
Are you really disputing that skyhammer is a total fail vs tau? Your grav cannons will never fire.
Sooo, you can't name another unit that can average ~4 wounds on a Riptide?
I don't use Skyhammer, btw. (though a GravDev squad would average 6 wounds). I think Skyhammer is A: Beardy, B: Not flexible enough for my taste.
This is an honest question because I have almost zero interceptor units and I don't play Tau or SMs. But if a GravDev squad did land next to a riptide, wouldn't every unit in range/LOS with EWO get to shoot the piss out of those Grav Devs before they get to fire? at full Ballistic skill?
And if that is in fact the case wouldn't it be likely that a single Grav Dev squad would get wiped out rather quickly before it gets to fire?
Martel732 wrote: You'll never make it into a position to do those wounds without external buffs. That's why i say they aren't good.
Are you really disputing that skyhammer is a total fail vs tau? Your grav cannons will never fire.
Sooo, you can't name another unit that can average ~4 wounds on a Riptide?
I don't use Skyhammer, btw. (though a GravDev squad would average 6 wounds). I think Skyhammer is A: Beardy, B: Not flexible enough for my taste.
You can't name one, either. Because that unit will never cause 4 wounds to a Riptide except in the rarest of circumstances. If you are able to do it consistently, then your Tau opponents are awful. This the crux of my problem with the Riptide. It even hard counters the units meant to counter it.
To be fair, with the shield up, and if they know you have grav devs, they will bring the shield up, you need to put in 945 points worth of grav cents to kill ONE tide.
ONE. (Technically it's like 2.5 will do it but still). In formation the Tide will usually have it's shields up.
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
That's not including the fact that you will be relatively squished together since you can't run and want to be within 12" of the tide when you land. The tides, popping their formation, will fire 4 times at your relatively bunched up marines and do quite a bit of damage.
So you've killed ~250 points and they've killed 600. You're now down on attrition and given them 28ppm that have the same defenses as 5ppm against them, relatively bunched up, for them to fire at.
I play Tau and marines, I don't know anyone who uses grav devs. They are awful, grav is only good on a relentless platform, which is why you see them on bikes and cents, and not much else. Do you not play vanilla marines? Why wouldn't you take cents over dev?
Cents are a whole other story. Cents can pop tides really well, but not devs. I'm surprised someone is claiming their few games trumps the math that heavily, and claiming math is a moot point because dice.
By that logic, a tactical squad can kill tides every turn no problem. Just roll them dice or send more dudes in
It doesn't make sense because your math is bizarre.
Devastator Squad, four Grav Cannons+Amps, on Drop Pod deployment: 3 shots at BS 5 (signum) 9 shots at BS 4
(Unbuffed Devs) on the move.
3 @ BS 5 (.833) = 2.5 hits 9 @ BS 4 (.666) = 6 Gives us 8.5 Hits. Converts to 8.27 wounds.
Unbuffed Riptide takes 3.67 wounds.
You probably think my math is "bizarre" because you assumed 3 cents to make your point, and STILL came up short by half a wound.
Cent stars aren't three guys. They are maxed out and get split fire with re-rolls to hit due to a psyker, since they are worth investing in. It's more expensive then the devs, but much more survivable, with much better fire power, easily able to delete 2 riptides a turn on average. You would need 4 squads of devs to do that, and they'd be weaker defensively and much harder to land and re-locate. You also managed to gloss over the range issues as well.
I really didn't think I had to detail the load out for cents to someone who claims to play competitively.
You never see cents without the star, because as you've pointed out, they aren't that great without it. With it, they are broken and leave devs behind so badly it's not funny. Why would you take the much weaker option, and why would we discuss it, if looking at them from a balance viewpoint?
You never see the Riptide without the wing, because there is no reason not to take it. It's an auto-include, I don't know why we are dismissing it from the conversation other than "reasons". If you always see one with the other, they are apart of the conversation and can't be separated.
You can't name one, either. Because that unit will never cause 4 wounds to a Riptide except in the rarest of circumstances. If you are able to do it consistently, then your Tau opponents are awful. This the crux of my problem with the Riptide. It even hard counters the units meant to counter it.
Well if you can't name a better unit for shooting the Riptide, then both Centurions and Devs are the go-to tool. They can't be awful if they're still the most effective things available. If you can land them in a good spot where they aren't taking every possible Interceptor shot (or are landing with other units that will also take Interceptor), then they can knock a Riptide down enough so that supporting units can finish it off. Take it battle by battle, if you can make a good drop, take it, if you can't, either drop on something else or wait a turn and try and make a better opportunity.
The most efficient counter to a Riptide isn't shooting anyways, like most Tau units the best counter is CC. Just tie it up so it can't shoot. Yeah, yeah, you take a lot of casualties on the way, but by far the most points efficient way to make a Riptide stop firing is to lock in in CC.
You probably think my math is "bizarre" because you assumed 3 cents to make your point, and STILL came up short by half a wound.
Cent stars aren't three guys. They are maxed out and get split fire with re-rolls to hit due to a psyker, since they are worth investing in. It's more expensive then the devs, but much more survivable, with much better fire power, easily able to delete 2 riptides a turn on average. You would need 4 squads of devs to do that, and they'd be weaker defensively and much harder to land and re-locate. You also managed to gloss over the range issues as well.
I really didn't think I had to detail the load out for cents to someone who claims to play competitively.
You never see cents without the star, because as you've pointed out, they aren't that great without it. With it, they are broken and leave devs behind so badly it's not funny. Why would you take the much weaker option, and why would we discuss it, if looking at them from a balance viewpoint?
You never see the Riptide without the wing, because there is no reason not to take it. It's an auto-include, I don't know why we are dismissing it from the conversation other than "reasons". If you always see one with the other, they are apart of the conversation and can't be separated.
"They can't be awful if they're still the most effective things available"
That's not necessarily true. There is the possibility that every unit, unsupported, is indeed awful vs the Riptide. Which is my contention. Just because grav devs and grav cents are the best, does not make them good.
Locking a Riptide in CC is still a win for the Tau. They get all the kills from the Riptide before it was engaged in CC, plus the unit you just threw away for the rest of the game. Assuming the Riptide doesn't win the CC and kill your unit.
You can't name one, either. Because that unit will never cause 4 wounds to a Riptide except in the rarest of circumstances. If you are able to do it consistently, then your Tau opponents are awful. This the crux of my problem with the Riptide. It even hard counters the units meant to counter it.
Well if you can't name a better unit for shooting the Riptide, then both Centurions and Devs are the go-to tool. They can't be awful if they're still the most effective things available.
What?
No.
If I don't own a hammer that doesn't make my hand an effective tool for driving nails into things. It simply means I lack effective tools.
That said, Cents are effective tools for countering Tides. SM might be the best army in the game against Tau, though it might be necrons. No one else can delete so much firepower turn 1 while being very difficult to shoot down with most weapons. Necrons simply don't care about Tides overly much compared to other armies if they spam wraiths, and why wouldn't you?
If you can land them in a good spot where they aren't taking every possible Interceptor shot (or are landing with other units that will also take Interceptor), then they can knock a Riptide down enough so that supporting units can finish it off. Take it battle by battle, if you can make a good drop, take it, if you can't, either drop on something else or wait a turn and try and make a better opportunity.
The most efficient counter to a Riptide isn't shooting anyways, like most Tau units the best counter is CC. Just tie it up so it can't shoot. Yeah, yeah, you take a lot of casualties on the way, but by far the most points efficient way to make a Riptide stop firing is to lock in in CC.
I play Tau and there are very few armies that can reach CC with my tide before turn 3, where the tide has earned it's points back. Saying "hit CC" is not a good strategy for the vast majority of armies. Daemons, Necrons, and SW can do it against them, but the vast majority of armies simply won't. Maybe my fire warriors, but the tides are too fast and are usually further back. Possibly CSM with the new book, though that is some risky business.
You probably think my math is "bizarre" because you assumed 3 cents to make your point, and STILL came up short by half a wound.
Cent stars aren't three guys. They are maxed out and get split fire with re-rolls to hit due to a psyker, since they are worth investing in. It's more expensive then the devs, but much more survivable, with much better fire power, easily able to delete 2 riptides a turn on average. You would need 4 squads of devs to do that, and they'd be weaker defensively and much harder to land and re-locate. You also managed to gloss over the range issues as well.
I really didn't think I had to detail the load out for cents to someone who claims to play competitively.
You never see cents without the star, because as you've pointed out, they aren't that great without it. With it, they are broken and leave devs behind so badly it's not funny. Why would you take the much weaker option, and why would we discuss it, if looking at them from a balance viewpoint?
You never see the Riptide without the wing, because there is no reason not to take it. It's an auto-include, I don't know why we are dismissing it from the conversation other than "reasons". If you always see one with the other, they are apart of the conversation and can't be separated.
Ok, so how many points are you sinking into that?
About 2 of your dev squads.
You can compare if you want, 2 dev squads versus the cent star. The cent star is better in nearly everyway, which is why it sees competitive play and the dev squads don't.
Are you unaware of a centstar? I can provide a write up if so and go over why its the better choice. The dev squad is the inferior choice for other reasons and isn't an effective counter to a riptide (you simply need way too many points and good placement). I'm surprised you're advocating it unless you just hate Cents. They are ugly and really unfluffy for anyone but Iron Hands, so I can understand that.
About 2 of your dev squads.
You can compare if you want, 2 dev squads versus the cent star. The cent star is better in nearly everyway, which is why it sees competitive play and the dev squads don't.
Are you unaware of a centstar? I can provide a write up if so and go over why its the better choice. The dev squad is the inferior choice for other reasons and isn't an effective counter to a riptide (you simply need way too many points and good placement). I'm surprised you're advocating it unless you just hate Cents. They are ugly and really unfluffy for anyone but Iron Hands, so I can understand that.
Ok, so to back up and look at your previous statement:
Akiasura wrote: [
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
It appears that your argument is this: "Devs are terrible because it takes ~600 points worth to kill a Riptide, but Cents are clearly better because it takes only ~600 points to kill a Riptide."
I think we're clearly in "Different Strokes for Different Folks" territory. I can look at 600 points and think to myself, "Two DropDevGrav squads, using Doctrines (re-roll to hit for 5ish unsaved wounds on a Riptide) means I can nearly kill two Riptides instead of one, and backfield Lascannons (or whatever) can finish them off.
One major problem I have with the Cents is that if they don't get the first turn, they're just T 5, 2+ save models that can be alpha struck off the table. To me they're a huge target, and therefore a liability at the start of the game. Somewhat appropriately, they look like a big target for DropGravDevs.
The other reason I don't like them is that they can't soak wounds the way that Devastators can. Sure you can set them up in cover, and that can help (you can also DSDevs into cover, so that's somewhat moot.) But I feel that models that are individually that expensive are a poor investment. In order to make them more durable, you're forced to take or attach certain characters to them, and I prefer not to put so many points towards a single unit.
I also don't like them aesthetically or fictionally, but if I really felt I needed Cents I'd figure something out. I just don't feel I need them.
They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
About 2 of your dev squads.
You can compare if you want, 2 dev squads versus the cent star. The cent star is better in nearly everyway, which is why it sees competitive play and the dev squads don't.
Are you unaware of a centstar? I can provide a write up if so and go over why its the better choice. The dev squad is the inferior choice for other reasons and isn't an effective counter to a riptide (you simply need way too many points and good placement). I'm surprised you're advocating it unless you just hate Cents. They are ugly and really unfluffy for anyone but Iron Hands, so I can understand that.
Ok, so to back up and look at your previous statement:
Akiasura wrote: [
with the shield not up, it takes 630 points, which is a lot better, though still difficult to land 2 pods and all those marines within 12" of the same tide.
It appears that your argument is this: "Devs are terrible because it takes ~600 points worth to kill a Riptide, but Cents are clearly better because it takes only ~600 points to kill a Riptide."
600 points to kill two riptides.
15 shots per tide with re-rolls to hit does the job for cents if they don't get the shield off. Split fire allows them to target two people. 2 Dead, pretty good odds of it happening. You take a max squad because the librarian buffs the whole squad and they split fire anyway, there is no point in taking only 1 squad min sized squad. It's simply not worth it.
My argument also includes that the cents do it from further away, with a much smaller footprint than 2 squads of grav devs plus pods that need to be quite close. Not to mention that, with powers, the Centstar is extremely hard to remove compared to tactical marines alone in your backyard.
I think we're clearly in "Different Strokes for Different Folks" territory. I can look at 600 points and think to myself, "Two DropDevGrav squads, using Doctrines (re-roll to hit for 5ish unsaved wounds on a Riptide) means I can nearly kill two Riptides instead of one, and backfield Lascannons (or whatever) can finish them off.
If you're taking lascannons, I don't think we are discussing competitive options anymore.
Do the doctrines add that many wounds? It seems like it would add one, which puts you under par, and still leaves you weaker than the cent star.
You're also assuming you can land two pods within firing distance of the tide compared to one squad of cents. The cents aren't going to take much return fire since tides tend to be in the back.
It's not Different Strokes. Look at winning tournament lists, you'll see the Cent star or gladius commonly featured. You won't see Devs taken at all.
Because one option is clearly superior.
One major problem I have with the Cents is that if they don't get the first turn, they're just T 5, 2+ save models that can be alpha struck off the table. To me they're a huge target, and therefore a liability at the start of the game. Somewhat appropriately, they look like a big target for DropGravDevs.
You deploy them out of LoS because they teleport. They are only a target to people that can inflict a ton of wounds to units with a 2+ save from deep strike which is...pretty much marines. Against them, you deploy in reserves until the pods land and then go nuts. It's certainly weaker, but still fine (They can, for example, pop out, kill the two dev squads in one turn of shooting, and earn their points back right away).
Sometimes they have a guy with a good save tanking wounds, but honestly that's way over the top in my opinion and its harder to get a return on their point cost.
Are you sure you're aware of how the star works?
The other reason I don't like them is that they can't soak wounds the way that Devastators can. Sure you can set them up in cover, and that can help (you can also DSDevs into cover, so that's somewhat moot.) But I feel that models that are individually that expensive are a poor investment. In order to make them more durable, you're forced to take or attach certain characters to them, and I prefer not to put so many points towards a single unit.
Uh, with the psyker the cents are much more durable than the marine squad. It's not even close. People often take tiggy or another sc to get a good chance of getting a power that allows them to have an extremely high toughness or invisibility.
Again, are you aware of how the star works?
For what its worth, I don't like deathstars. I hate the idea of one unit dictating my strategy so much, and don't that playstyle and try not to use it. It certainly doesn't play that way in WMH outside a minority of casters.
But in 40k Stars are THE most competitive option. It's just a fact of the game sadly, unless you nerf a lot. It's not a different strokes, it's just the state of the game. A star can carry a codex on it's shoulders, and many of the better dexes have solid stars while the weaker ones don't. Not always true, Tau for example (though riptide wing feels like a star unless you have grav) but often the case.
I don't think you need cents unless your meta is ultra competitive. WKs, Scat Bikes, Riptide Formation, Reanimation Protocol Wraith wing, Gladius everywhere, allies spammed, TWC deathstars and what have you. The SM codex has a lot of strong options. But when I need something to 100% die right away no matter what, it's rare that there is a better option than the cent star (and often it's because grav doesn't work well). I mean...they shut down knight armies on their own, they can kill 2 knights a turn easily, over and over again.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They really don't. In the form of a large blast, the Centurions take one wound each and are done with it. Compare that to the Marines where every wound lost is a hit to firepower.
Actually, you lose one cent for every two wounds.
If you reread the statement you'll see I'm on the right track.
600 points to kill two riptides.
15 shots per tide with re-rolls to hit does the job for cents if they don't get the shield off. Split fire allows them to target two people. 2 Dead, pretty good odds of it happening.
Uhh, the rules for Split fire only allow one model to fire at a different target. So you're only killing one Riptide.
If you reread the statement you'll see I'm on the right track.
I don't see how. Wounds are allocated to the closest model until it's removed. A Cent squad that takes 3 wounds from a blast loses a Cent and takes an additional wound.
But hey, Bach says its not 
thing.
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