Ghorgul.

I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal.




Someone mentioned a FAQ that would make what I am doing illegal. Does someone want to post it? Outside of posting that rumored FAQ nothing has been presented that makes the process outlined above illegal.

That is not what I am referring too.

col_impact wrote:
Ghorgul.

I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal.

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Someone mentioned a FAQ. Does someone want to post it?

You are ignoring my arguments. It is not about the process, this dispute is not about the process, you need to produce legal Army Force Roster, as quoted earlier. I have shown that it is impossible with your process shown.

You can lead a dead horse to water and beat it black and blue, but that won't stop it from rinse and repeating the same tactic on YMDC as it does in every thread when asked to provide proof of RAW when actually presenting yet another skewed RAI argument.

X wargear list -
X is whatever codex you wish it to be, this to my knowledge is uniform language.

These lists detail the points and values of various wargear available to units in your army. Many units entries... etc etc.
>>>>>> RULES <<<<<< for these items can be found in the appendix.


Note. NEVER at any point in the wargear options breakdown description which is included in every codex before any units pages does it call the war gear options as rules. They are options, not rules, they therefore have no legality to act as a rule.

Note #2 We are told to find the RULES for the wargear in the appendix.

The codex space marines that we are explicitly told to look at has rules requiring you to wear terminator armor to take items.

"May take items from" is not a rule, it is a wargear option. A wargear option does not supersede codex space marines.

Ghorgul wrote:
You are ignoring my arguments. It is not about the process, this dispute is not about the process, you need to produce legal Army Force Roster, as quoted earlier. I have shown that it is impossible with your process shown.

The Army Force Roster only cares that the end result is 100% legal. My process results in an end result that is 100% legal.

The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

A Terminator Captain with a chainfist, bike, and Cataphractii armour is a legal configuration.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
X wargear list -
X is whatever codex you wish it to be, this to my knowledge is uniform language.

These lists detail the points and values of various wargear available to units in your army. Many units entries... etc etc.
>>>>>> RULES <<<<<< for these items can be found in the appendix.


Note. NEVER at any point in the wargear options breakdown description which is included in every codex before any units pages does it call the war gear options as rules. They are options, not rules, they therefore have no legality to act as a rule.

Note #2 We are told to find the RULES for the wargear in the appendix.

The codex space marines that we are explicitly told to look at has rules requiring you to wear terminator armor to take items.

"May take items from" is not a rule, it is a wargear option. A wargear option does not supersede codex space marines.

The definitions Charistoph cited disagree with you. You need to find a citation proving that a wargear option is not a rule. Good luck with that.

If you look at the 13 point or whatever breakdown of a data sheet you will note that the wargear options is not labeled as a section.

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Ghorgul.

I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal.

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Someone mentioned a FAQ. Does someone want to post it?

You are ignoring my arguments. It is not about the process, this dispute is not about the process, you need to produce legal Army Force Roster, as quoted earlier. I have shown that it is impossible with your process shown.

Actually a nice solid take from a different angle; not arguing the timing shenanigans being pulled, but the complete inability to provide a legal roster due to the timing shenanigans. I asked him something along the same lines as to what rules expire and when since he dumps the terminator armor for the chainfist and automatically assumes the permission from wearing the terminator armor carries over. Yet another RAI argument from Col.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
You can lead a dead horse to water and beat it black and blue, but that won't stop it from rinse and repeating the same tactic on YMDC as it does in every thread when asked to provide proof of RAW when actually presenting yet another skewed RAI argument.

Feel free to point out how any of this is illegal.

col_impact wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.

Why?

Because you made a statement that was not true, and (as usual) you didn't provide any proof when refuted. When you insisted the supplement overrode the codex you didn't acknowledge that you were wrong there when proof was demanded, you changed arguments. We have another situation, you stated that you do not require history in order to legally get the terminator weapons and the cataphracti armor, which I demonstrated was not true. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that you are relying on history for this. You've been asked repeatedly to prove this. You don't want to? Fine. We'll just have to assume that you just don't want to admit that you don't want to admit that you're wrong in anything. That goes to how much credence people should give anything else you say.

But you notice he has changed his argument since the beginning to account for his initial failure. It is now a sequencing argument to get around wearing Cataphracti armor, that isn't terminator armor, yet wielding terminator only weaponry.

col_impact wrote:
The Army Force Roster only cares that the end result is 100% legal. My process results in an end result that is 100% legal

This remains unproven.

col_impact wrote:

The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

I am not sure what you claim in this, this is not under dispute.

col_impact wrote:

A Terminator Captain with a chainfist, bike, and Cataphractii armour is a legal configuration.

This remains unproven, you have not provided rule quotes in support of this.

I give my regular captain a bike-legal
I then give him terminator armor-by your logic, this is legal.
Is the end result legal?

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.

Why?

Because you made a statement that was not true, and (as usual) you didn't provide any proof when refuted. When you insisted the supplement overrode the codex you didn't acknowledge that you were wrong there when proof was demanded, you changed arguments. We have another situation, you stated that you do not require history in order to legally get the terminator weapons and the cataphracti armor, which I demonstrated was not true. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that you are relying on history for this. You've been asked repeatedly to prove this. You don't want to? Fine. We'll just have to assume that you just don't want to admit that you don't want to admit that you're wrong in anything. That goes to how much credence people should give anything else you say.

I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.



The burden is on you to show how this process is illegal. If you cannot then you have no choice but to accept it.

You mentioned a FAQ. Are you going to post it or not?

To hell with sequence.
If you take terminator only items you follow all rules for terminators.
A model is either a terminator or it's not.

You don't get to cheery pick rules as you feel.

If your taking an item that's terminator only then you accept it has to be a terminator to do so.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I give my regular captain a bike-legal
I then give him terminator armor-by your logic, this is legal.
Is the end result legal?

When you give him terminator armor he has to give up the bike.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I give my regular captain a bike-legal
I then give him terminator armor-by your logic, this is legal.
Is the end result legal?

This was ignored

Edit: so why doesn't tinge terminator captain have to do the same?

What Charistoph quoted was wrong col inventor. In the 13 point breakdown of a data sheet wargear options are not includes. The only thing there is wargear currently being worn. Rules are applied to the game you do not apply rules when you aren't playing the game.

Wargear has rules, the wargear options section does not have rules.

You must obey the wargear rules in codex spacemarines, you cannot refute this with a wargear option because it isn't a rule.

 Jackal wrote:
To hell with sequence.
If you take terminator only items you follow all rules for terminators.
A model is either a terminator or it's not.

You don't get to cheery pick rules as you feel.

If your taking an item that's terminator only then you accept it has to be a terminator to do so.

I guess you missed the part where the Terminator Captain has permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether the Captain is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

col_impact wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.

Why?

Because you made a statement that was not true, and (as usual) you didn't provide any proof when refuted. When you insisted the supplement overrode the codex you didn't acknowledge that you were wrong there when proof was demanded, you changed arguments. We have another situation, you stated that you do not require history in order to legally get the terminator weapons and the cataphracti armor, which I demonstrated was not true. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that you are relying on history for this. You've been asked repeatedly to prove this. You don't want to? Fine. We'll just have to assume that you just don't want to admit that you don't want to admit that you're wrong in anything. That goes to how much credence people should give anything else you say.

I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

The burden is on you to show how this process is illegal. If you cannot then you have no choice but to accept it.

You mentioned a FAQ. Are you going to post it or not?

You stated that you do not rely on history. As I pointed out, this relies on history - you have to historically know which order things were taken. Now, you said you can do it wihtout history. Your 4 step list is not proof. If I have to remember which order things are in, I have to remember the history. It seems you can't even admit you were wrong that your dodge here REQUIRES you to remember the history after chastising us that we have been relying on history to deny your (false) claims about the supplement automatically overriding the codex despite the lack of statements in the supplement saying this. You didn't even bother to say HOW we are relying on history. Here I have said how you are. So, do you still insist you don't rely on history for this?

Can you now show me the wording where it states irrespective of whether the captain is in terminator armour or not please?
As such a statement was your idea of RAI and does not exist.

Ceann wrote:
What Charistoph quoted was wrong col inventor. In the 13 point breakdown of a data sheet wargear options are not includes. The only thing there is wargear currently being worn. Rules are applied to the game you do not apply rules when you aren't playing the game.

Wargear has rules, the wargear options section does not have rules.

You must obey the wargear rules in codex spacemarines, you cannot refute this with a wargear option because it isn't a rule.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
But you notice he has changed his argument since the beginning to account for his initial failure. It is now a sequencing argument to get around wearing Cataphracti armor, that isn't terminator armor, yet wielding terminator only weaponry.

col_impact has so far argued his case with:
1)ambulances
2)girlfriends pitbull (or some other dog breed, don't remember, don't care!)
3)"specific permission over general rule" which is not supported by anything
4)history
5)process, which is special case of history

All his arguments have been discredited, and often several times as he keeps on repeating his claims and disregarding other peoples opposing arguments, dodging questions and demanding other people produce rule quotes with page numbers while at the same time failing to produce rule quotes himself.

You ask us to tell you what rules you are breaking but the real question is, what rules are you using? Nothing is permitted in 40k. You are told explicitly what you can do, if you are not told you can do it, then you cannot.

You assume you can magically run through the wargear checkout line multiple times. Such a thing does not exist you need to prove it does.

A supplement does not supersede a codex, you need to prove it does.

You never have proof, you are like the boy who cried wolf, you keep quoting rules and phrasing that do not exist, no one be lives you.

 Jackal wrote:
Can you now show me the wording where it states irrespective of whether the captain is in terminator armour or not please?
As such a statement was your idea of RAI and does not exist.

The model itself has this option . . .

May take items from the Terminator list.... is not a rule. Look at the 13 point data sheet guide, wargear options do not exist. Under wargear options section it tells you to use the RULES for the wargear in the appendix, in this case the appendix is codex space marines.

May take items from, are wargear options not rules and in the face of rules they are meaningless words.

Ghorgul wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
But you notice he has changed his argument since the beginning to account for his initial failure. It is now a sequencing argument to get around wearing Cataphracti armor, that isn't terminator armor, yet wielding terminator only weaponry.

col_impact has so far argued his case with:
1)ambulances
2)girlfriends pitbull (or some other dog breed, don't remember, don't care!)
3)"specific permission over general rule" which is not supported by anything
4)history
5)process, which is special case of history

All his arguments have been discredited, and often several times as he keeps on repeating his claims and disregarding other peoples opposing arguments, dodging questions and demanding other people produce rule quotes with page numbers while at the same time failing to produce rule quotes himself.

Looks like you are refusing to take up the challenge . ..

I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.



Feel free to point out something illegal. If you cannot then you must accept it as legal.

Ceann wrote:
May take items from the Terminator list.... is not a rule. Look at the 13 point data sheet guide, wargear options do not exist. Under wargear options section it tells you to use the RULES for the wargear in the appendix, in this case the appendix is codex space marines.

May take items from, are wargear options not rules and in the face of rules they are meaningless words.

Please, try col.

Ceann wrote:
May take items from the Terminator list.... is not a rule. Look at the 13 point data sheet guide, wargear options do not exist. Under wargear options section it tells you to use the RULES for the wargear in the appendix, in this case the appendix is codex space marines.

May take items from, are wargear options not rules and in the face of rules they are meaningless words.

Already answered by Charistoph and myself.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Please look at the diagram and tell me where it states wargear options are rules? It doesn't because they are not rules, they have no legal grounds as rules.

From the Datasheets page of Codex: Space Marines:
"Each Space Marines unit in this book has a datasheet. These detail either Army List Entries or Formations, providing all the rules information that you will need to use your models in your games of Warhammer 40,000."

From the BRB:
"Army List Entries
The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop publications, such as codexes, codex supplements and dataslates.

Regardless of where this information is found, it is known as an Army List Entry. Each Army List Entry describes a unit of Citadel miniatures and includes everything you will need to know in order to use that unit in a game
of Warhammer 40,000.

In some older codexes, the information for a single unit’s Army List Entry is spread out amongst different sections of the book. Taken together they describe, and are treated for all rules purposes as, a single Army List Entry. When using such a codex, each unit’s Faction is the same as its codex title. For example, all units in Codex: Space Marines belong to the Space Marines Faction, whilst all units in Codex: Chaos Daemons belong to the Chaos Daemons Faction."

Sorry, they are rules as far as I can tell. And if they weren't rules, they would have no power to do anything to the game. Every Captain would be stuck without Wargear and no rules to even get Terminator Armour in the first place.

Wonderful! Do you see any part of that which said they were rules? I didn't see the world rule in the entire thing.

But the wargear options section tells you where to find the rules.

Except your stating it's not a terminator, so how can it select from that list?

I also didn't see the run through the checkout line 4 times either.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I give my regular captain a bike-legal
I then give him terminator armor-by your logic, this is legal.
Is the end result legal?

This was ignored

Edit: so why doesn't tinge terminator captain have to do the same?

The Terminator Captain has permission to take Terminator Weapons. The model itself has that permission listed on its options.

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
You can lead a dead horse to water and beat it black and blue, but that won't stop it from rinse and repeating the same tactic on YMDC as it does in every thread when asked to provide proof of RAW when actually presenting yet another skewed RAI argument.

Feel free to point out how any of this is illegal.

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

You cannot claim legality with a RAI stance. You have no permission to assume that the permissions set forth by being in terminator armor carry over to when the model no longer has terminator armor. You have no permission to assume that the sequence in choosing equipment somehow negates some rules while allowing others. Once again your entire line of reasoning is based upon RAI of your assumptions.

The Cataphracti entry is flawed. That is a given that everyone acknowledges. The player is left up to RAI their way into making it work, which based upon precedence of other armor only specified in fluff terms as being a certain type, has been ruled as effectively being that type.

But seriously, you saw your initial argument fall apart and chose to go with the age old timing/sequencing argument, which on YMDC has historically been laughed at and ridiculed as the last bastion of a losing stance, especially with wargear selections.

Ceann wrote:
Wonderful! Do you see any part of that which said they were rules? I didn't see the world rule in the entire thing.

The entire Army List Entry is a collection of rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:


You cannot claim legality with a RAI stance. You have no permission to assume that the permissions set forth by being in terminator armor carry over to when the model no longer has terminator armor. You have no permission to assume that the sequence in choosing equipment somehow negates some rules while allowing others. Once again your entire line of reasoning is based upon RAI of your assumptions.

I have made no assumptions.

Feel free to point out any assumptions or illegalities.

Ah it is? GREAT. So the part where is says see codex space marines is a rule on the same data sheet, making it just as important. And the wargear options tell us to use the rules in the appendix. The rules in the appendix tell us you must wear terminator armor to use those weapons. Therefore we must do so.

Ceann wrote:
The rules in the appendix tell us you must wear terminator armor to use those weapons.

That's not what the rule says. Quote the rule.

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
But you notice he has changed his argument since the beginning to account for his initial failure. It is now a sequencing argument to get around wearing Cataphracti armor, that isn't terminator armor, yet wielding terminator only weaponry.

col_impact has so far argued his case with:
1)ambulances
2)girlfriends pitbull (or some other dog breed, don't remember, don't care!)
3)"specific permission over general rule" which is not supported by anything
4)history
5)process, which is special case of history

All his arguments have been discredited, and often several times as he keeps on repeating his claims and disregarding other peoples opposing arguments, dodging questions and demanding other people produce rule quotes with page numbers while at the same time failing to produce rule quotes himself.

Looks like you are refusing to take up the challenge . ..

I have outlined a 100% legal process and you have yet to point out where it is illegal. Everything is copacetic according to the rules.

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Feel free to point out something illegal. If you cannot then you must accept it as legal.

Ghorgul wrote:
col_impact, you are the one dodging and ignoring other people.

Spoiler:

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Incorrect.

The Terminator Captain model has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

Incorrect.
The Terminator Captain model in Cataprachtii has permission to "take items from the Terminator Weapons" list but he has no legal options within the Terminator Weapons list as all the options demand the model to be wearing Terminator Armour. Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour.

Nothing in rule "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" suggests he may override the rules governing Terminator Weapons, as has been argued earlier by several people several times.

Let me give you a clear example where a rule overrides another rule:
Raptor Talon [Formation], page 53 in Traitor Legions Codex Supplement.
Formation has Special Rule: Predatory Warriors
Direct quote: "Units in this Formation can charge on the same turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, but always count as making a disordered charge when they do so."
There exists a basic rule, in BRB, stating that a unit cannot charge on the same turn it arrives from Deep Strike Reserve. (BRB, special rules, deep strike, pg. 162).
On page 13 in BRB, Basic versus Advanced:
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Clearly the Codex rule Predatory Warriors contradicts the Special Rule for Deep Striking in BRB, therefore Predatory Warriors rule overrides contradicting [special] rule in BRB.
BRB does not state that rules inside codex override other rules inside the same codex or another codex.

Please produce us an excerpt which supports your argument of Terminator Captain permission to Terminator Weapons to override restrictions within the options in Terminator Weapons. BRB, faq or errata will be sufficient.

You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.

To direct you back to the task at hand . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.

If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.

Spoiler:

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:


You missed the point. The Terminator Captain has a fully legal configuration.

To direct you back to the task at hand . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model make legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

This is a perfectly legitimate RAW resolution. All rules were followed and no rule is broken.

If you feel otherwise point out the rule that I break. The burden is on you to post rules here.

The Roster you provide is convoluted, let me tidy it up to follow the:
BRB, pg. 117, The Force Roster:
"Write down the details of the models that make up your army... This written record is known as your army's force roster, and you must keep it to hand while you play the game."

Terminator Captain

Cataprachtii Terminator Armour

Chainfist/Power Fist (you switched it 2nd time midway with no mention, but lets not worry about that!)

Bike

1) Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is legal choice
2) Bike is legal choice because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator Armour by definition
3)Chainfist/power fist choice is Illegal. See the justification and rule entry below:

In Codex Space Marines, Space Marines Wargear List, Terminator Weapons

entry:
"A model wearing Terminator armour may replace his power weapon with one of the following: -Power fist X pts, -Chainfist X pts."
A model, as recorded in Force Roster I kindly provided for you, is not wearing a Terminator armour so therefore cannot replace his power weapon with Power fist or Chainfist. This is because Cataprachtii Terminator Armour is not Terminator armour by definition.

You failed to record your models Force Roster entry in clear manner and you failed to follow the rule set in Terminator Weapons [list] entry. Therefore you ended up with illegal choices for you models.

Spoiler:

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
As all claims in support of Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour being able to choose options within Terminator Weapons list have been discredited and arguments against the claims stand unchallenged, even outright ignored, we can conclude that:
[list]Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour can have a bike or jump pack.

Terminator Captain in Cataprachtii Terminator Armour has access to Terminator Weapons, but cannot make any legal choices from the said list.

Quite dodging.

Point out the rules I break in the steps below.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Unless you can point out rules that I break, I am doing something perfectly legitimate and legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
Prove that the same process can't be used with a vanilla Space Marine Captain to provide him with a bike and with terminator armor.

Why? The process I outline is thoroughly legal and end results in a 100% legal combination.

Meanwhile, you mention FAQs but fail to deliver as far as posting them.

You have to show a rule being broken here.

Please point out the rules I break in the steps below.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Your argument has been discredited, by rule quotes in very clear manner. You are ignoring arguments and dodging. You are acting in very disruptive manner. You do not provide rule quotes in support of your claims, yet you demand others to provide rule quotes. When they are provided you ignore them completely and continue repeating your discredited claims.

Ghorgul wrote:
Your argument has been invalidated, see above quote. You are still ignoring my arguments.

I have not ignored you. You haven't applied your argument to this outlined process. What exactly is illegal here? Please point it out.

What rules are you breaking.

Tenet 1. Provide your precedence
Tenet 2. Provide rule pages by number



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The process you have outlined to purchase wargear is not something you have explicitly permitted to do. Point out where you are allowed to do this.

Wow....12 pages on such a simple question. And such varying points of view.

I so glad i play 30k. This is never an issue.

RAW vs. RAI. ITs a game. Not a legal court case about human rights.

Common sence - screw RAW/RAI. Terminators are terminators. They are heavy armoured marines. They only go flying thru the air when thumped with a Falchion.

But hey if your opponent is desperate enough to want to play....good luck.

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
Your argument has been invalidated, see above quote. You are still ignoring my arguments.

I have not ignored you. You haven't applied your argument to this outlined process. What exactly is illegal here? Please point it out.

Spoiler:

Point out the rules I break in the steps below.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

You have failed to provide Force Roster as explained earlier. I will not discuss sequence unless you provide a rule which states that Force Roster needs to be provided in sequence.

Ceann wrote:Wargear has rules, the wargear options section does not have rules.

You must obey the wargear rules in codex spacemarines, you cannot refute this with a wargear option because it isn't a rule.

If the wargear options does/are not rules, then they have no impact on the game. Rules are how the game operates and functions, and part of the game is list building. Either they are rules on how to properly upgrade the unit, or they are not. If they are not the rules on how to upgrade a unit, they have no enforceable power which means you either can do nothing further with them or you can do like Col_Ignored and do whatever the sam-hill you please while upgrading them. Don't get so carried away trying to prove the person who cannot read an entire sentence wrong that you put yourself in error.

There is no definitive method on how unit upgrades are to be processed. All we know is you cannot go back on the list and select an upgrade in the list above a different upgrade if we go by the FAQ answer regarding Apothecaries. Which makes the concept behind someone's question on doing the same purchasing method with a regular Captain and Terminator Armour pertinent.

The Options for a Captain tell us that he can take Terminator Armour after he has access to purchasing Special Issue Wargear. The rules for purchasing Bikes in Special Issue Wargear state that a model wearing Terminator Armour cannot purchase a Bike or a Jump Pack (and then excludes both from being purchased at the same time). The only way this would be possible would be if we are looking at the final results, since if we go by top-down order, a Captain can purchase a Bike and then purchase his Terminator Armour. Purchasing Terminator Armour no longer clears the Captain of all Wargear, just his grenades, pistol, and sword.

This still doesn't change the fact that Col_Ignored likes to incorporate plenty of double standards in his assessments and then completely ignores that they happen. He nit-picks rules like he nit-picks the words in the sentences and willingly ignores everything else.

Ghorgul wrote:
You have failed to provide Force Roster as explained earlier. I will not discuss sequence unless you provide a rule which states that Force Roster needs to be provided in sequence.

The process produces an end result that is 100% legal. The Force Roster only cares that the end result is 100% legal, which it is. The Terminator Captain has permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. A Terminator Captain equipped with Cataphractii armour, chainfist, and bike is a legal combination.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Wonderful! Do you see any part of that which said they were rules? I didn't see the world rule in the entire thing.

The entire Army List Entry is a collection of rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:


You cannot claim legality with a RAI stance. You have no permission to assume that the permissions set forth by being in terminator armor carry over to when the model no longer has terminator armor. You have no permission to assume that the sequence in choosing equipment somehow negates some rules while allowing others. Once again your entire line of reasoning is based upon RAI of your assumptions.

I have made no assumptions.

Feel free to point out any assumptions or illegalities.

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Again, just because you say something is so does not make it.

You assume that you are allowed to sequence wargear purchase to circumvent not being allowed to purchase terminator weapons when not in terminator armor.

You assume that wargear/weapon purchase are akin to snap shots in time, whose rules and/or restrictions do not carry over or persist with future changes of wargear/weapons.

You also assume that permissions are persistent through wargear changes as well, which is also selective assumption in your part to fit your narrative.

Now I know you are going to probably comeback with "I make no assumptions" or "point to me where I am breaking a rule". But the truth of the matter is that the burden of proof is not on me to prove that you are making assumptions throughout your entire little summary. The burden of proof is in you to show me per the RAW that you are allowed to make those assumptions. I know that no RAW exists to support those assumptions. I do know that RAW exists in the form of a precedence with regard to armor not being specifically labeled as terminator armor, being effectively ruled as terminator armor.

Then how come a regular captain is different? At no point when making a terminator armored captain on a bike do you violate the rules.

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
You have failed to provide Force Roster as explained earlier. I will not discuss sequence unless you provide a rule which states that Force Roster needs to be provided in sequence.

The process produces an end result that is 100% legal. The Force Roster only cares that the end result is 100% legal, which it is. The Terminator Captain has permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. A Terminator Captain equipped with Cataphractii armour, chainfist, and bike is a legal combination.

Incorrect, this has been proven to you several times and you have been unable to provide any further arguments that support your claim.

 Brother Ramses wrote:


Again, just because you say something is so does not make it.

You assume that you are allowed to sequence wargear purchase to circumvent not being allowed to purchase terminator weapons when not in terminator armor.

You assume that wargear/weapon purchase are akin to snap shots in time, whose rules and/or restrictions do not carry over or persist with future changes of wargear/weapons.

You also assume that permissions are persistent through wargear changes as well, which is also selective assumption in your part to fit your narrative.

Now I know you are going to probably comeback with "I make no assumptions" or "point to me where I am breaking a rule". But the truth of the matter is that the burden of proof is not on me to prove that you are making assumptions throughout your entire little summary. The burden of proof is in you to show me per the RAW that you are allowed to make those assumptions. I know that no RAW exists to support those assumptions. I do know that RAW exists in the form of a precedence with regard to armor not being specifically labeled as terminator armor, being effectively ruled as terminator armor.

I make no assumptions

These steps are made in a straightforward manner.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)


Where exactly am I breaking a rule?

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:Wargear has rules, the wargear options section does not have rules.

You must obey the wargear rules in codex spacemarines, you cannot refute this with a wargear option because it isn't a rule.

If the wargear options does/are not rules, then they have no impact on the game. Rules are how the game operates and functions, and part of the game is list building. Either they are rules on how to properly upgrade the unit, or they are not. If they are not the rules on how to upgrade a unit, they have no enforceable power which means you either can do nothing further with them or you can do like Col_Ignored and do whatever the sam-hill you please while upgrading them. Don't get so carried away trying to prove the person who cannot read an entire sentence wrong that you put yourself in error.

There is no definitive method on how unit upgrades are to be processed. All we know is you cannot go back on the list and select an upgrade in the list above a different upgrade if we go by the FAQ answer regarding Apothecaries. Which makes the concept behind someone's question on doing the same purchasing method with a regular Captain and Terminator Armour pertinent.

The Options for a Captain tell us that he can take Terminator Armour after he has access to purchasing Special Issue Wargear. The rules for purchasing Bikes in Special Issue Wargear state that a model wearing Terminator Armour cannot purchase a Bike or a Jump Pack (and then excludes both from being purchased at the same time). The only way this would be possible would be if we are looking at the final results, since if we go by top-down order, a Captain can purchase a Bike and then purchase his Terminator Armour. Purchasing Terminator Armour no longer clears the Captain of all Wargear, just his grenades, pistol, and sword.

This still doesn't change the fact that Col_Ignored likes to incorporate plenty of double standards in his assessments and then completely ignores that they happen. He nit-picks rules like he nit-picks the words in the sentences and willingly ignores everything else.

They are not rules. The movement phase has rules ,the shooting phase has rules. Special rules are rules. Wargear options are not rules, they permit you to purchase wargear, they do not have any game enforceable status. Notice all of the wargear options say MAY, which is not an absolute. Rules are absolutes. Now the wargear they permit you access too, the wargear does have rules the section explicitly days they do.

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
You have failed to provide Force Roster as explained earlier. I will not discuss sequence unless you provide a rule which states that Force Roster needs to be provided in sequence.

The process produces an end result that is 100% legal. The Force Roster only cares that the end result is 100% legal, which it is. The Terminator Captain has permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list. A Terminator Captain equipped with Cataphractii armour, chainfist, and bike is a legal combination.

Incorrect, this has been proven to you several times and you have been unable to provide any further arguments that support your claim.

No proof has been presented by you that was not immediately refuted.

Again. I am looking for a simple pointing out by why as to what exactly is illegal in this process . . .

Your premise, that the data sheet words you consider to be rules, take precedence over wargear rules, which are actually rules.

col_impact wrote:

Spoiler:

 Brother Ramses wrote:


Again, just because you say something is so does not make it.

You assume that you are allowed to sequence wargear purchase to circumvent not being allowed to purchase terminator weapons when not in terminator armor.

You assume that wargear/weapon purchase are akin to snap shots in time, whose rules and/or restrictions do not carry over or persist with future changes of wargear/weapons.

You also assume that permissions are persistent through wargear changes as well, which is also selective assumption in your part to fit your narrative.

Now I know you are going to probably comeback with "I make no assumptions" or "point to me where I am breaking a rule". But the truth of the matter is that the burden of proof is not on me to prove that you are making assumptions throughout your entire little summary. The burden of proof is in you to show me per the RAW that you are allowed to make those assumptions. I know that no RAW exists to support those assumptions. I do know that RAW exists in the form of a precedence with regard to armor not being specifically labeled as terminator armor, being effectively ruled as terminator armor.

I make no assumptions

These steps are made in a straightforward manner.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)


Where exactly am I breaking a rule?

As clearly shown earlier you end up with illegal Force Roster entry, but you keep ignoring other people here. I am convinced your conduct qualifies as spamming, you keep posting the same exact thing and then ignore all the counter arguments.

Ghorgul wrote:
[As clearly shown earlier you end up with illegal Force Roster entry, but you keep ignoring other people here. I am convinced your conduct qualifies as spamming, you keep posting the same exact thing and then ignore all the counter arguments.

How exactly do you end up with an illegal Force Roster entry? The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

col_impact wrote:


No proof has been presented by you that was not immediately refuted.

Incorrect. You have consistently failed to refute my arguments with rule quotes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
[As clearly shown earlier you end up with illegal Force Roster entry, but you keep ignoring other people here. I am convinced your conduct qualifies as spamming, you keep posting the same exact thing and then ignore all the counter arguments.

How exactly do you end up with an illegal Force Roster entry? The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

This has been explained many times earlier in great detail but you keep ignoring other people on this debate. The detailed explanations are on this same page, quoted by me, but you choose to ignore them and fail to produce relevant rule quote to support your claim.

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:


No proof has been presented by you that was not immediately refuted.

Incorrect. You have consistently failed to refute my arguments with rule quotes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
[As clearly shown earlier you end up with illegal Force Roster entry, but you keep ignoring other people here. I am convinced your conduct qualifies as spamming, you keep posting the same exact thing and then ignore all the counter arguments.

How exactly do you end up with an illegal Force Roster entry? The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

This has been explained many times earlier in great detail but you keep ignoring other people on this debate. The detailed explanations are on this same page, quoted by me, but you choose to ignore them and fail to produce relevant rule quote to support your claim.

The end result (which is what the Force Roster cares about) is 100% legal. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. He has permission to be equipped with a chainfist.

col_impact wrote:
How exactly do you end up with an illegal Force Roster entry? The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. Are you claiming something? No one is disputing this rule in Army List Entry. Please produce a clear argument.

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:
How exactly do you end up with an illegal Force Roster entry? The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. Are you claiming something? No one is disputing this rule in Army List Entry. Please produce a clear argument.

So you are in agreement that there is nothing illegal going on here?

col_impact wrote:
The end result (which is what the Force Roster cares about) is 100% legal. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. He has permission to be equipped with a chainfist.

True, but only when not choosing to have Cataprachtii Terminator Armour. With Cataprachtii Terminator Armour he cannot legally be equipped with chainfist. This has also been explained to you countless times before but you choose to ignore other peoples rule based justifications and keep on repeating your own claims.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:


So you are in agreement that there is nothing illegal going on here?

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

I am not in agreement, as I have argued earlier on several occasions. You still keep ignoring my arguments and do not provide clear rule quotes to defend your claim.

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The end result (which is what the Force Roster cares about) is 100% legal. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. He has permission to be equipped with a chainfist.

True, but only when not choosing to have Cataprachtii Terminator Armour. With Cataprachtii Terminator Armour he cannot legally be equipped with chainfist.

This process shows how he is legally equipped.



Do you see anything illegal?

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

col_impact wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The end result (which is what the Force Roster cares about) is 100% legal. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. He has permission to be equipped with a chainfist.

True, but only when not choosing to have Cataprachtii Terminator Armour. With Cataprachtii Terminator Armour he cannot legally be equipped with chainfist.

This process shows how he is legally equipped.

Spoiler:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Do you see anything illegal?

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain.

Earlier on this same page there is a post (2017/04/11 22:54:28) with a quote where I show this to lead into having illegal Force Roster. You are spamming.

Where are the rules permitting you to perform that process?
There are none.

Where is the rule that says when you remove terminator armor you remain able to have a terminator weapons item?

You are assuming these things with no tenet 1 or tenet 2 support.

Ghorgul wrote:
Earlier on this same page there is a quote where I show this to lead into having illegal Force Roster. You are spamming.

I pointed out that a Terminator Captain with a bike, chainfist, and Cataphractii armour is an entirely legal configuration.

The Force Roster only cares that you are presenting a legal configuration.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
Where are the rules permitting you to perform that process?
There are none.

Where is the rule that says when you remove terminator armor you remain able to have a terminator weapons item?

You are assuming these things with no tenet 1 or tenet 2 support.

The rules are applied in a straightforward fashion. No assumptions are being made by me.


Where exactly do you see something illegal going on?

It is not a legal configuration. You are not allowed to have a powerfist without also wearing terminator armor.

You are assuming buying in a sequence is a rule, there is no rule that permits you to do that.

You keep quoting this garbage.

"may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

Luckily you stopped calling it a rule because you realized I was correct and it is not a rule. However lets go back to page 1 and remind you of a critical detail you seem to be forgetting. The AoD Datasheet tells us... SEE CODEX SPACE MARINES. FULL STOP.

We are now talking about wargear while following the rules of Codex: Space Marines.

Codex: Space Marines does not permit you to have a powerfist from Terminator Weapons without wearing Terminator armor.

It doesn't forget when you try to switch armor. The rule is there, applied to the powerfist.

Ceann wrote:
It is not a legal configuration. You are not allowed to have a powerfist without also wearing terminator armor.

You have an entirely faulty recollection of the rules here. Quote the rule that says you are not allowed to have a powerfist without also wearing terminator armour.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then how come a regular captain is different? At no point when making a terminator armored captain on a bike do you violate the rules.

A faulty recollection...

Yes, yes I feel it now, I am feeling a bit foggy.
I need two peices of information from you. Please help me Col.

Can you remind me about these please.
What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

col_impact wrote:
Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

"Permission to have Terminator Weapons" Incorrect. Rules do not state this, you quoted the appropriate rule there yourself. You have permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons. Items contained within the Terminator Weapons however have a ruling stating that only a model in terminator armour can choose to replace their Storm bolter or power sword with a item from Terminator Weapons list. Therefore a Terminator Captain with Cataprachtii Terminator Armour cannot have a legal Force Roster with items picked from Terminator Weapons. As has been stated many times before, but you choose to override/ignore the rule "a model in terminator armour may replace..." without producing a rule which specifically overrides the restriction on items in Terminator Weapons list. Produce the rule quote. Line on Army List Entry The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list is not a rule that can override restrictions in Terminator Weapons list.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Then how come a regular captain is different? At no point when making a terminator armored captain on a bike do you violate the rules.

- Space Marine bike 1 …20 pts
1 May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour.


VS.


Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]"


You are not ending up with a legal configuration like I am.

A faulty recollection...

Yes, yes I feel it now, I am feeling a bit foggy.
I need two peices of information from you. Please help me Col.

Can you remind me about these please.
What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

All this has been explained to you many times before but you keep twisting and interpreting the rules to support your claim without providing actual rule quotes to support your interpretations.

Ghorgul wrote:
All this has been explained to you many times before but you keep twisting and interpreting the rules to support your claim without providing actual rule quotes to support your interpretations.

Dont distract him friend, he has a short attention span.

A faulty recollection...

Yes, yes I feel it now, I am feeling a bit foggy.
I need two peices of information from you. Please help me Col.

Can you remind me about these please.
What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are making assertions here Col and i am asking for your FORUM required tenets.

col_impact wrote:
You are not ending up with a legal configuration like I am.

For the record, in you case missed it, in your examples you are not ending up with legal Force Roster entry either.

Myyyyy Col Impact!
Ohhhh dear Col Impact!

Upon what pages,
From all the ages?

Can you show us please,
Were on our knees?

What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

We need your tenet ONE.
And your tenet TWO.
Before we can be through.

Ghorgul wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are not ending up with a legal configuration like I am.

For the record, in you case missed it, in your examples you are not ending up with legal Force Roster entry either.

You are going to have to demonstrate what you mean here. We can't just take your word for it.

This process winds up with a legal configuration . . .



The end result (which is what the Force Roster cares about) is 100% legal. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list. He has permission to be equipped with a chainfist.

What page in the AoD is this war gear on?

What page states you can buy things in sequence?

We need your tenet ONE.
And your tenet TWO.
Before we can be through.

Your list is like a dressing room, they don't see you go in there with terminator armor, put on a glove, take off the armor, put on some other armor and come out.

All they see is that you come out and you are dressed wrong.

Ceann,

Enough with your silly disruption.

What exactly do you think is illegal here?

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Terminator armour is terminator armour! You can't ride bikes or use jetpacks!!!

There are many different Patterns of terminator armour. These are: Indomitus, Tartos, Cataphractii, Gorgon, Saturnine, Arkonak, Aegis and Aquilon.

The typical armour in GW stores is Indomitus pattern....oh no...theres no rule that says i can't give a Volcano cannon to an Indomitus terminator therefore i can do it...yeh... lets take the piss....lets put our wannabe lawyer hat on and try and find some magical loop hole that lets me act like a 'redacted' when i play you...yeh...that means i can have fun...and kick your arse - you can go cry...because i am giant 'redacted'. And its fun for me cause i have no friends and dont play well with others....yehhh.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
Terminator armour is terminator armour! You can't ride bikes or use jetpacks!!!

There are many different Patterns of terminator armour. These are: Indomitus, Tartos, Cataphractii, Gorgon, Saturnine, Arkonak, Aegis and Aquilon.

The typical armour in GW stores is Indomitus pattern....oh no...theres no rule that says i can't give a Volcano cannon to an Indomitus terminator therefore i can do it...yeh... lets take the piss....lets put our wannabe lawyer hat on and try and find some magical loop hole that lets me act like a 'redacted' when i play you...yeh...that means i can have fun...and kick your arse - you can go cry...because i am giant 'redacted'. And its fun for me cause i have no friends and dont play well with others....yehhh.

I guess you missed out on what the core problem is. Cataphractii armour isn't considered to be fully terminator armour. It only counts as terminator armour for some things.

col_impact wrote:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Where exactly do you see something illegal going on?

Lol at anyone who would paly against you....


I would point out in point 4 you magically have a power fist now,

But I would also say your ability to retain a chainfist is required on keeping Terminator Armour, so removing the armour removes the option for the fist

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Where exactly do you see something illegal going on?

Lol at anyone who would paly against you....


I would point out in point 4 you magically have a power fist now,

But I would also say your ability to retain a chainfist is required on keeping Terminator Armour, so removing the armour removes the option for the fist

The Terminator Captain always has the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

So swapping the armour would not remove the chainfist.

col_impact wrote:

The Terminator Captain always has the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

So swapping the armour would not remove the chainfist.

So are you paying Full Price for both armours?
Then I would think its kewl...

but if you are not then no it isn't.

Because you are buying the entire thing in one hit, this isn't a progressive thing.. if it was a campaign and you took termi armour one game then the next swapped it out, then fair play

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

The Terminator Captain always has the permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list, irrespective of whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

Remember the permission to have Terminator Weapons is in the Options for the Terminator Captain. The Terminator Captain model "may take items from the Terminator Weapons" list.

So swapping the armour would not remove the chainfist.

So are you paying Full Price for both armours?
Then I would think its kewl...

but if you are not then no it isn't.

Because you are buying the entire thing in one hit, this isn't a progressive thing.. if it was a campaign and you took termi armour one game then the next swapped it out, then fair play

Ceann wrote:They are not rules. The movement phase has rules ,the shooting phase has rules. Special rules are rules. Wargear options are not rules, they permit you to purchase wargear, they do not have any game enforceable status. Notice all of the wargear options say MAY, which is not an absolute. Rules are absolutes. Now the wargear they permit you access too, the wargear does have rules the section explicitly days they do.

Many rules are not absolutes. Units MAY Move. Units MAY Shoot. Units MAY Run. Weapons with multiple profiles MAY choose which they are going to use each turn. Units MAY Charge. Units MAY Charge two units. Super-Heavy Vehicles MAY Shoot at multiple targets. No absolutes in this. Each one comes with absolute rules within them if you choose to use them, though.

Rules take many different forms as they are the regulations and principles which govern the conduct of every aspect of the game. There are the rules which cover how statistics work. There are rules which cover interactions between units and models. There are rules which allow a Captain to be upgraded to a Chapter Master, but not allow him to upgrade his Master Level.

Yes, they are options, but just as I stated, many other rules are governed by the option to use them. When you choose to engage those options, they become the rule for using that option. It is a rule that Captains MAY purchase Terminator Armour. It is a rule that those Captains can select Special Issue Wargear. It is also a rule that models in Terminator Armour cannot purchase a Bike or Jump Pack. It is also a rule that a model must have Terminator Armour in order to select Weapons from the Terminator Weapons list.

If the Options are not rules then the premise that a model doesn't have Terminator Armour for Special Issue Wargear but has it for selecting Wargear actually doesn't matter, as there are no rules to contradict the situation.

Additionally, it's a bit disengenous to state they are not rules when you ask this:

Ceann wrote:Where are the rules permitting you to perform that process?

.

col_impact wrote:

May replace terminator armour with Cataphractii armour ............................. free

Fair enough then

Don't feed the troll.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
Terminator armour is terminator armour.

Cataphractii terminator amour is not not terminator armour!

The fact it uses the word terminator in its description should bi enough.

SM Codex - SM Wargear List: Special Issue Wargear: JP & bike MAY NOT BE TAKEN BY TERMINATORS. Just because it doesn't list the plethora of different Patterns of terminator armour is irrelevant!

There is a reason no-one models terminators on bike and with jump packs - cause doing so would get you laughed out of the room. There is more than enough fluff to explain what heavy terminator armour is used for, and NONE of it has bikes or jump packs.

Terminator armour is terminator armour.

There is a saying that keeps me calm in dealing with this kind of thing: 'I have enough to consider with my own shortcomings that to fret over the fact god did not evenly distribute intelligence'.

Your clearly wrong, and either know it and are just taking the piss, or your a ........ nah its just not worth it.

You are out of line. Please refer to the rules for YMDC before posting.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page#931434

col_impact wrote:


You are out of line. Please refer to the rules for YMDC before posting.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page#931434

Haha this is the best observation from you so far.

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:


Again, just because you say something is so does not make it.

You assume that you are allowed to sequence wargear purchase to circumvent not being allowed to purchase terminator weapons when not in terminator armor.

You assume that wargear/weapon purchase are akin to snap shots in time, whose rules and/or restrictions do not carry over or persist with future changes of wargear/weapons.

You also assume that permissions are persistent through wargear changes as well, which is also selective assumption in your part to fit your narrative.

Now I know you are going to probably comeback with "I make no assumptions" or "point to me where I am breaking a rule". But the truth of the matter is that the burden of proof is not on me to prove that you are making assumptions throughout your entire little summary. The burden of proof is in you to show me per the RAW that you are allowed to make those assumptions. I know that no RAW exists to support those assumptions. I do know that RAW exists in the form of a precedence with regard to armor not being specifically labeled as terminator armor, being effectively ruled as terminator armor.

I make no assumptions

These steps are made in a straightforward manner. RAI assumption as you have no direction or permission to equip in a sequence to avoid the restrictions of a standing rule

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items) RAI assumption that once you swap out the terminator armor, any equipment associated solely with and restricted by the use of terminator armor is still legally equipped.

3) The Cataphratic Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour) Actually on point with the RAW currently with the only possible argument against that precedence is shown to have ruled that armor that acts like terminator armor, looks like terminator armor, smells like terminator armor, and talks like terminator is effectively terminator armor when it comes to wargear restrictions.

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour) RAI assumption in requirement for the powerfist to be with a model in terminator armor has somehow been fulfilled with the purchase and subsequent return of the terminator armor.


Where exactly am I breaking a rule?

Again, I don't need to show you breaking a rule, only show that you are basing your stance is based on RAI and therefore the legality of your stance is based upon your opinion and nothing more. The burden of proof is upon you to prove the RAW as you are making a RAW claim, but only backing it with RAI assumptions.

col_impact wrote:
Ceann,

Enough with your silly disruption.

What exactly do you think is illegal here?

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a power fist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

My disruption?

You are required sir, required by YMDC forum rules to state your PRECEDENCE per Tenet 1 for the assertions you are making. You have done nothing except refuse to do this.
The assertion you are making is that you can equip items in any order and that the AoD supplement supersedes the Codex. You are required by Tenet 2 to show everyone here where this rule is located in a rulebook/faq etc. You were the one who was so quick to point to YMDC tenet's and state you could make "logical arguments" but ignored the fact that your argument wasn't actually logical and wasn't supporting a rule.

Provide what you are required to provide and then I will address you arguments. The argument you are attempting futilely to put forth is based on the presentation of information to support your claim. You providing that information would undermine your own argument so you refuse to do so.

What page in the AoD is this war gear on? "Terminator Weapons"
What page states you can buy things in sequence? "What allows 1,2,3,4 to occur"

These two questions are apparently so backbreakingly difficult as debate questions that you don't have the capability to answer them.
Rather than provide answers you instead call it a disruption to distract from your inability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And he's gone dark again. Ask a couple simple questions and he's gone. Then someone will make some reply with a default of actually acknowledging he has a precedence for his argument by entertaining it and he gets to sidestep providing evidence.

 Brother Ramses wrote:


Again, I don't need to show you breaking a rule, only show that you are basing your stance is based on RAI and therefore the legality of your stance is based upon your opinion and nothing more. The burden of proof is upon you to prove the RAW as you are making a RAW claim, but only backing it with RAI assumptions.

I am not basing any of my stance on any RAI. The process I lay out follows plainly stated rules and I break no rules. Thus, it is purely according to the Rules As Written.

It is up to you to show rules that I am violating or rules that would direct us otherwise than the procedure laid out below.

Otherwise what I am doing is perfectly legal and according to the rules.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:


Again, I don't need to show you breaking a rule, only show that you are basing your stance is based on RAI and therefore the legality of your stance is based upon your opinion and nothing more. The burden of proof is upon you to prove the RAW as you are making a RAW claim, but only backing it with RAI assumptions.

I am not basing any of my stance on any RAI. The process I lay out follows plainly stated rules and I break no rules. Thus, it is purely according to the Rules As Written.

It is up to you to show rules that I am violating or rules that would direct us otherwise than the procedure laid out below.

Otherwise what I am doing is perfectly legal and according to the rules.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

its RAI on the basis that you 'order' your purchase, also RAI on the basis that the Cataphratii doesn't invalidate the chainfist, while at the same time giving you access to the bike

GodDamUser wrote:


its RAI on the basis that you 'order' your purchase, also RAI on the basis that the Cataphratii doesn't invalidate the chainfist, while at the same time giving you access to the bike

Are there rules that indicate some other procedure? My process follows plainly stated rules and any and all rules that are available on the matter.

Why would you think the Cataphratii invalidates the chainfist? The permission to take items from the Terminator Weapons list is attributed to the actual Terminator Captain model.

In order for you show that my process is not RAW you need to actually show some conflict with some rule.




Unless you can find something illegal, you should be giving the thumbs up that it's perfectly legal.

So I am waiting for you (or anyone) to point out what exactly is illegal. If you cannot, then I will take it as tacit acceptance of legality.

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

This is the questionable part.

It runs on the presumption that there is Order to the buying and then removing a requirement for a item means you get to keep the item

Edit: Duder on a bike totally legit I would love to see someone make that model..

it is the wargear justification that I find is iffy

Is this just going to be the new standard of YMDC? Col_impact picks a ridiculous topic and everyone tries to reason with him for 20+ pages?

Maybe we should actually just have a mod enforce the tenets upon him?

All he has to do is supply the required information and he refuses to do so.
He has to provide a precedence set that purchasing items works this way.

The standard practice is to check a submitted list against the rules and see if anything is awry.
He wants to play dressing room fantasy to circumvent that.

GodDamUser wrote:
2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

This is the questionable part.

It runs on the presumption that there is Order to the buying and then removing a requirement for a item means you get to keep the item

No presumptions. I simply provide a process to generate an end result that is a 100% legal build (Terminator Captain with chainfist, bike, and Cataphractii armour) and I let the rules dictate what I do.

I follow the steps methodically. I am not allowed to remove an item unless the rules direct me to, so I don't remove any items when I replace the Terminator armour for Cataphractii armour.

At no point in the following of the steps do I make an illegal build.

You presume that all of these actions take place sequentially instead of simultaneously.

The difference is you going into and out of a store multiple times making single purchases, compared to buying all of your purchases at once.
At the end of the day, you have to ARRIVE AT A TABLE and put a list down in front of another player.

They will look at your list, you cannot explain away, while I did all these changing of garmets in my magic warddrobe to wear these.

The list will show a chainfist from terminator weapons that requires terminator armor be worn in order to bring it into a battle.
And not a suit of terminator armor in sight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since there is NO PRECEDENCE for buying items sequentially as opposed to supplying an entire army list with all of your wargear purchases. You have no basis to assume you can purchase items in this manner.

Ceann wrote:
You presume that all of these actions take place sequentially instead of simultaneously.

The difference is you going into and out of a store multiple times making single purchases, compared to buying all of your purchases at once.

What do the rules say on the matter?

If they say nothing, then either is allowable so long as you wind up with an entirely legal combination, which I do.

But yes you follow steps..

but the purchasing a unit isn't actually a step process, it has a break down of components but the actual purchase happens at once.

This is what makes your argument pure RAI

Your character became Illegal as he no longer has the termi armour that gave him the Chainfist

Ceann wrote:

Since there is NO PRECEDENCE for buying items sequentially as opposed to supplying an entire army list with all of your wargear purchases. You have no basis to assume you can purchase items in this manner.

I am presenting a 100% legal combination in a Force Org all at one time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:
But yes you follow steps..

but the purchasing a unit isn't actually a step process, it has a break down of components but the actual purchase happens at once.

Do you have rules to back up what you say? It's actually a bold assumption on your part that it happens at once.

GodDamUser wrote:
Your character became Illegal as he no longer has the termi armour that gave him the Chainfist

Incorrect. The Termi armour only allows him to replace storm bolter/power sword with chain fist, etc. The permission to take Terminator Weapon items is an indissociable attribute of the Terminator Captain model. So he never becomes illegal with the chainfist.

No, you are not.

The Chainfist does not forget that it is from Terminator Weapons and requires Terminator Armor to be worn in order to be used.

Your submitted wargear list does not contain terminator armor, so you were not able to acquire a chainfist.

What you did in your dressing room before you landed on the battlefield is irrelevant. Your commander sends you home.
You are not wearing terminator armor, therefore you may not exchange your powersword for a chain fist.

"I WAS wearing terminator armor" isn't a rule.

.

Ceann wrote:
No, you are not.

The Chainfist does not forget that it is from Terminator Weapons and requires Terminator Armor to be worn in order to be used.

Again you make this claim with no support. There is absolutely no rule that says a chainfist requires terminator armour to be used. You are spreading misinformation!

The permission to take Terminator Weapon items is an indissociable attribute of the Terminator Captain model.

It is not. The datasheet for the Terminator Captain model TELLS YOU to see Codex: Space Marines.

Why does it tell you to do this? Because of the question your refused to answer.

NO PAGE EXISTS in AoD that has special wargear or terminator weapons. So you must answer to the Space Marine Codex, not the "Terminator Captain" datasheet.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
Cataphractii TERMINATOR Armour is TERMINATOR armour.

There is no question, no assumption.

Terminator armour is terminator armour. Black is black, White is white. Light Blue is still blue; just a lighter shade of blue.

Cataphractii Terminator armour is just a different pattern terminator armour than Indomitus terminator armour. The codices refer generically to terminator armour - they dont call it out as Indomitus. Does that mean you can never play terminators, because there is no specific Indomitus Terminator reference? No....Why....Because Cataphractii Terminator armour, and Indomitus Terminator armour is TERMINATOR ARMOUR. Its not power armour...Its not scout armour...Its Terminator armour, and you can't ride a bike or use a jetpack with terminator armour.

This rule disagrees with you.



On YMDC we pay attention to what the rules say.

Your entire argument included in your spoiler is a claim you are making with no support.

There is absolutely no rule that says a purchasing items a sequential event. You are spreading misinformation!

By Cols Argument


1. Captain buys a bike

2. Captain buys terminator armour

Have captain on bike in termi armour because of order of purchase

Ceann wrote:
Your entire argument included in your spoiler is a claim you are making with no support.

There is absolutely no rule that says a purchasing items a sequential event.

Do you have a rule that says how we are to purchase items?

If not, then the rules only care that we provide legal builds for Force Orgs, which I do, no problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:
By Cols Argument


1. Captain buys a bike

2. Captain buys terminator armour

Have captain on bike in termi armour because of order of purchase

Results in illegal build.



My process does not result in an illegal build.

You must be sitting down? This is clearly going over your head.

A terminator captain is a terminator. He can't ride a bike or use a jump pack. He is a terminator. If he was wearing tartos armour, he still can't ride a bike or use a jump pack. He is a TERMINATOR.

You buy him whatever you like, provided terminator suitable war-gear.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
By Cols Argument


1. Captain buys a bike

2. Captain buys terminator armour

Have captain on bike in termi armour because of order of purchase

Results in illegal build.

Spoiler:

- Space Marine bike 1 …20 pts
1 May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour.

My process does not result in an illegal build.

Spoiler:

OPTIONS:
May take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]

But he took that war gear while in Power Armour

then got the Termi Armour

So and nothing says I have to drop the item

its the exact same argument as you are presenting, As he is no longer in the required item he no longer has access to the wargear

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
You must be sitting down? This is clearly going over your head.

A terminator captain is a terminator. He can't ride a bike or use a jump pack. He is a terminator. If he was wearing tartos armour, he still can't ride a bike or use a jump pack. He is a TERMINATOR.

You buy him whatever you like, provided terminator suitable war-gear.

Read this rule carefully.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
You must be sitting down? This is clearly going over your head.

A terminator captain is a terminator. He can't ride a bike or use a jump pack. He is a terminator. If he was wearing tartos armour, he still can't ride a bike or use a jump pack. He is a TERMINATOR.

You buy him whatever you like, provided terminator suitable war-gear.

First you are new to this.

The aim of the game here is to present the Rules to Col, so he can repeat himself over and over about how he is trying to break the game works.

He will also deny anything that plays his own process against him.


It is quite relaxing and makes them work hours disappear quite quickly

It is April 12 right....not April 1?

GodDamUser wrote:


But he took that war gear while in Power Armour

then got the Termi Armour

So and nothing says I have to drop the item

its the exact same argument as you are presenting, As he is no longer in the required item he no longer has access to the wargear

A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armor.

A chainfist can be taken by a Terminator Captain. A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list]".

Ceann wrote:
Your entire argument included in your spoiler is a claim you are making with no support.

There is absolutely no rule that says a purchasing items a sequential event. You are spreading misinformation!

Indeed. There is no defined order of operations for purchasing options in an army list entry.

However, if we consider the fact that it would be rather pointless to restrict Terminator-equipped models from purchasing bikes and jump packs, but not restricting bike/jump pack-equipped models from buying Terminator Armour, seems to indicate that a step-by-step process is not intended, but rather a final validation method to make sure that everything is lined up and coherent together.

Still, that's just RAI going off of how to make it work semantically, not RAW as there is no literal statement defining it.

 Charistoph wrote:
However, if we consider the fact that it would be rather pointless to restrict Terminator-equipped models from purchasing bikes and jump packs, but not restricting bike/jump pack-equipped models from buying Terminator Armour, seems to indicate that a step-by-step process is not intended, but rather a final validation method to make sure that everything is lined up and coherent together.

Still, that's just RAI going off of how to make it work semantically, not RAW as there is no literal statement defining it.

Stop spelling out my point =P

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
It is April 12 right....not April 1?

With Col_Ignored, almost every day he posts can feel like April 1st, or you end up feeling like a bergen.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Your entire argument included in your spoiler is a claim you are making with no support.

There is absolutely no rule that says a purchasing items a sequential event. You are spreading misinformation!

Indeed. There is no defined order of operations for purchasing options in an army list entry.

However, if we consider the fact that it would be rather pointless to restrict Terminator-equipped models from purchasing bikes and jump packs, but not restricting bike/jump pack-equipped models from buying Terminator Armour, seems to indicate that a step-by-step process is not intended, but rather a final validation method to make sure that everything is lined up and coherent together.

Still, that's just RAI going off of how to make it work semantically, not RAW as there is no literal statement defining it.

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

GodDamUser wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
However, if we consider the fact that it would be rather pointless to restrict Terminator-equipped models from purchasing bikes and jump packs, but not restricting bike/jump pack-equipped models from buying Terminator Armour, seems to indicate that a step-by-step process is not intended, but rather a final validation method to make sure that everything is lined up and coherent together.

Still, that's just RAI going off of how to make it work semantically, not RAW as there is no literal statement defining it.

Stop spelling out my point =P

In the mouth of two or three witnesses...

col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

You then have the issue that you have a chainfist that requires termi armour to have... but no termi armour on the final product

So the end product isn't coherent

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

You then have the issue that you have a chainfist that requires termi armour to have... but no termi armour on the final product

So the end product isn't coherent

The end product is 100% coherent and legal. On what basis can you say otherwise?

A Terminator Captain has permission to take Terminator Weapons, irrespective of whether he dons terminator or Cataphractii armour.



A Terminator Captain with a bike, chainfist, and Cataphractii armour is a perfectly legal build.

col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

No, there is no final validation method via RAW. RAW requires a literal, written statement to support it. There is no such Written statement that can be found which supports any method of Options purchasing for a unit. There was a huge thread on that exact subject, and people could only give HTWPI and no actual quote was provided. You have provided no quote to support any distinctive method of order of operations.

With a final validation method, either the Cataphractii Armour is Terminator or not. If it is, then you take the options provided by the Options statement starting with, "Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour..." and you cannot take a Bike or Jump Pack with it. If it is not, then you are restricted from using that options set, but using what is available to the Power Armour options set.

 Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Correct. Per RAW all we know is that there is only a final validation method to make sure everything is lined up and coherent together.

No, there is no final validation method via RAW. RAW requires a literal, written statement to support it.

It all needs to come together here.

col_impact wrote:
May take items in the Terminator Weapons

The actual wording of the rule is

A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator Armour may only take items from the...

 Charistoph wrote:


With a final validation method, either the Cataphractii Armour is Terminator or not. If it is, then you take the options provided by the Options statement starting with, "Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator armour..." and you cannot take a Bike or Jump Pack with it. If it is not, then you are restricted from using that options set, but using what is available to the Power Armour options set.

You are confusing the way the Space Marine Codex captain does it and the way the Terminator Captain in the Angel of Death supplement does it.

A Terminator Captain simply has



Make sure to use the correct sources for the debate at hand or your comments are of little value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:
May take items in the Terminator Weapons

The actual wording of the rule is

A Captain or Chapter Master in Terminator Armour may only take items from the...

Ah no wonder you are confused. You are not looking at the correct source for the debate. You need to look at the Terminator Captain datasheet in the Angels of Death supplement.

The actual datasheet says this . . .

Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

Sigh....

These weapons are too unbalanced and unwieldy for even a Battle-Brother in standard Astartes Power Armour to wield effectively; Chainfists are only capable of being used with Terminator Armour.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

This is a successful RAW argument.

So far no one has pointed to anything illegal in the following . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

the last debate went for over 20 pages..

Just checking Angles of Death, now... will either agree or disagree in a moment

GodDamUser wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

the last debate went for over 20 pages..

Just checking Angles of Death, now... will either agree or disagree in a moment

Maybe you should just read the thread instead.

GodDamUser wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

the last debate went for over 20 pages..

Just checking Angles of Death, now... will either agree or disagree in a moment

Cool. Thanks for taking the effort to make sure we are on the same page here!

col_impact wrote:
This is a successful RAW argument.

So far no one has pointed to anything illegal in the following . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

See this argument doesn't work as it is written..

1. Spacemairne captain buys a bike (as he is in power armour he can)

2. buys Terminator armour (cannot take a bike in termini armour, but I have done it in reverse order so it is all good)

Ceann wrote:


Maybe you should just read the thread instead.

Bad advice. I always make a thorough read of all sources involved. If you haven't actually read the rules, how can you enter into a debate on the rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GodDamUser wrote:


See this argument doesn't work as it is written..

1. Spacemairne captain buys a bike (as he is in power armour he can)

2. buys Terminator armour (cannot take a bike in termini armour, but I have done it in reverse order so it is all good)

Have you found the correct datasheet? It's called Terminator Captain.

But yes..

how you layered out your process is what is causing the confusion


Terminator captain has access to terminator weapons as a standard, so he can buy the fist no matter what armour he has.. (Default termi)

By upgrading his armour he no longer in termi armour and therefore takes a bike

So Col is correct

How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Yeah Sorry Ceann

We have lost this one, mainly due to looking at Codex Spacemaine instead of Codex Angles of Death

In this case the 'Terminator Captain' by default has access to Termi and Special items, changing the armour removes the restriction on on bikes


A normal Spacemarine Captain only gets access to termi items with termi armour and doesn't work

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

How he did his argument was poor, I agree with that.

But in the end the end product is legit and cannot be faulted

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Ok. Got it. You haven't looked at the Angel of Death supplement.

No wonder you are confused.

GodDamUser wrote:

Ceann wrote:
How can I enter a debate on the rules?

There are no rules here. None.

Your entire "argument" which it can't even be called one is predicated on the fact that there NO rules that clearly define how gear is purchased.

Your assertion is based upon the fact that there aren't rules governing your actions. This means that ALL weargear purchases are RAI and RAW does not exist. You cannot prove that your method of buying items is RAW, because there are no rules written on the topic.

Yeah Sorry Ceann

We have lost this one, mainly due to looking at Codex Spacemaine instead of Codex Angles of Death

In this case the 'Terminator Captain' by default has access to Termi and Special items, changing the armour removes the restriction on on bikes


A normal Spacemarine Captain only gets access to termi items with termi armour and doesn't work

We lost what?
How can you make a RAW argument, if there are no rules to read?
There are no rules governing the order in which you purchase items. Because there are no rules written for the order of purchasing items we can either assume one of two things.
Either no purchases can be made at all, or any purchase can be made, and that is an assumption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Have you actually looked at the Angel of Death supplement?

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?

Ok. Got it. You haven't looked at the Angel of Death supplement.

No wonder you are confused.

I guess I would have had to have looked at it order to know you can't answer the question of what page the Terminator Weapons are in the AoD supplement right?
Or what page tells you that you can sequence buying your gear options?

No wonder you are confused.

Ceann wrote:


We lost what?
How can you make a RAW argument, if there are no rules to read?
There are no rules governing the order in which you purchase items. Because there are no rules written for the order of purchasing items we can either assume one of two things.
Either no purchases can be made at all, or any purchase can be made, and that is an assumption.

I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


We lost what?
How can you make a RAW argument, if there are no rules to read?
There are no rules governing the order in which you purchase items. Because there are no rules written for the order of purchasing items we can either assume one of two things.
Either no purchases can be made at all, or any purchase can be made, and that is an assumption.

I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?
That doesn't have Terminator Weapons in it?
Or Special Wargear?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:


I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

The one that says See Codex: Space Marines?
That doesn't have Terminator Weapons in it?
Or Special Wargear?

Ok. Got it. You haven't looked at the Angel of Death supplement.

No wonder you are confused.

Well, I suggest you start with actually reading the Angels of Death supplement.

Ceann wrote:
I guess I would have had to have looked at it order to know you can't answer the question of what page the Terminator Weapons are in the AoD supplement right?
Or what page tells you that you can sequence buying your gear options?

Well see the thing here

it is the unit itself that gives access to Terminator weapon in this case, not the terminator armour

No, because Terminator Weapons states, "a model wearing terminator armor may"

Wearing the armor is a requirement for the item.
The thing here is.

We don't have rules that dictate how items are purchased.
While you can dictate they can be purchased one way...

The method of visiting the wargear shop 4 or 5 times making individual purchases.

Or

The method of visiting one time and having all of the rules checked on checkout.

is "the thing here is".

He asserts you can do the former, with no rule to support it, everyone else is on the latter, with no rule to support it.

If neither side has a rule to support the order in which items are purchased, how is it RAW?

Ceann wrote:
No, because Terminator Weapons states, "a model wearing terminator armor may"

Wearing the armor is a requirement for the item.
The thing here is.

We don't have rules that dictate how items are purchased.
While you can dictate they can be purchased one way...

The method of visiting the wargear shop 4 or 5 times making individual purchases.

Or the method of visiting one time and having all of the rules checked on checkout

is "the thing here is".

He asserts you can do the former, with no rule to support it, everyone else is on the latter, with no rule to support it.

If neither side has a rule to support the order in which items are purchased, how is it RAW?

All that is required of RAW is providing a legal build at the end of the purchasing process for a Force Org.



At work the rule is I need to show up at 9 AM.
There is no rule for how many steps I need to make to get there at 9 AM

I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

Ceann wrote:
I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

Do you have a rules quote to back up your method?

If not, then the rules don't care as long as you produce a legal build at the end of it all.

Ceann wrote:
No, because Terminator Weapons states, "a model wearing terminator armor may"

That is also true... good point

As he is not in termi armour he once again cannot have a termi weapon...


It just keeps going

Col's order of purchase argument doesn't work, because like I said if I buy the bike then the armour it is just as legal

In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

and here I was thinking this was over..


Now this comes down to a RAI of does his entry of being able to access the item wargear naturally trump the armour requirement with Sup>codex, but you also have to take note the cap is standard equip is termi armour,

Or does in the end the Special armour count as termi armour, and he cant ride the bike or do sick jumps

Therefore your method is wrong, you are skipping ahead to switch to a chainfist and then backing up. The decision has already been made to keep terminator armor, you cannot change your mind after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

Do you have a rules quote to back up your method?

If not, then the rules don't care as long as you produce a legal build at the end of it all.

No, I have the Tenets to back up my version of this.

In english we read from top to bottom, if we are not reading the Codex in english or we can decide to change the order in which we interpert the words then we would be free to arrange the words on the data sheet in any manner we wished. The rules are read from top to bottom, left to right.

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

All of the unit options have add models first, because you cannot add gear to models to haven't already purchased. Precedence shows us that the options are read from top to bottom.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

'The model wearing the termi armour' Codex: Spacemarine

So he can have his fist, but only while wearing termi armour

Ceann wrote:


No, I have the Tenets to back up my version of this.

In english we read from top to bottom, if we are not reading the Codex in english or we can decide to change the order in which we interpert the words then we would be free to arrange the words on the data sheet in any manner we wished. The rules are read from top to bottom, left to right.

Rules quote?

No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

col_impact wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Okay, this has gone on for 15 pages with only one person arguing on one side with any conviction... is this a successful troll attempt?

This is a successful RAW argument.

So far no one has pointed to anything illegal in the following . . .

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

I actually did, emboldened in red, how you have no RAW argument and how along almost every step of the way you made RAI assumptions with no basis to do so. You chose to regurgitate the EXACT same thing, adding nothing, rebutting nothing, and hence you continue to have no RAW argument. But that is your style and I supposed you must be related to the poster in my sig.

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

'The model wearing the termi armour' Codex: Spacemarine

So he can have his fist, but only while wearing termi armour

Read the whole rule you are quoting. That rule is just about swapping power swords for termi weapons.

The actual permission to take an item from the Terminator Weapons list is on the Terminator Captain datasheet.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:


No, I have the Tenets to back up my version of this.

In english we read from top to bottom, if we are not reading the Codex in english or we can decide to change the order in which we interpert the words then we would be free to arrange the words on the data sheet in any manner we wished. The rules are read from top to bottom, left to right.

Rules quote?

We don't do rules quotes friend remember?
You called it disruptive when I asked for them earlier.
You need to prove me wrong that we do not read the rules from top to bottom.
Please proceed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So we can't take a bike then right?

Ceann wrote:
No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

Yes but if you upgrade the armour he is not wearing Terminator armour.

So if he can still take the fist, a regular captain can buy then bike then the termiarmour for the same result


As he wasn't wearing the termi armour when he acquired the bike

In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

So you are asserting that we do not read the rules, top to bottom, correct?

GodDamUser wrote:

Ceann wrote:
No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

Yes but if you upgrade the armour he is not wearing Terminator armour.

So if he can still take the fist, a regular captain can buy then bike then the termiarmour for the same result


As he wasn't wearing the termi armour when he acquired the bike

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

col_impact wrote:

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

only if you look at half of the rules involved, once you factor in the weargear rule from Codex Spacemarine then the Termiarmour is required for the fist

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Ceann wrote:
No, he does not. The Space Marine codex states a unit wearing terminator armor may...

If you have to decide on what type of armor you wear prior to selecting the other options then you will either wearing or not wearing terminator armor.

Yes but if you upgrade the armour he is not wearing Terminator armour.

So if he can still take the fist, a regular captain can buy then bike then the termiarmour for the same result


As he wasn't wearing the termi armour when he acquired the bike

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

So he can't have the bike?

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

So you are asserting that we do not read the rules, top to bottom, correct?

I am asserting there are no rules for how exactly we purchase items.

The rules only require for us to produce legal combinations for Force Orgs

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

Hey col, quick question. Since he has permission to take a chainfist irrespective of the armour he is wearing, why did you make that convoluted procedure of buying the chainfist before equipping the Cataphractii armour?

You spent pages upon pages asking people to come up with a reason as to why your stepped process was wrong, and completely invalidated it here?

If he has permission to take it, then the order in which he takes the wargear shouldn't matter?

So he can

Buy the cataphractii armour, then buy the chainfist yes?

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

RAI in your own words. RAW does not allow you to do things "how we want", it tells us how to do them, through permission in the rules. You have just killed your argument by your own hand.

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:

That won't produce a legal build. A bike cannot be taken by a model in terminator armour.

However, terminator weapons can be taken by a Terminator Captain whether he is in terminator armour or Cataphractii armour.

only if you look at half of the rules involved, once you factor in the weargear rule from Codex Spacemarine then the Termiarmour is required for the fist

Revisit the process below. Point out where anything illegal happens.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

 Brother Ramses wrote:

col_impact wrote:
In the absence of a rules quote, we can purchase how we want as long as we wind up with a legal combination at the end.

RAI in your own words. RAW does not allow you to do things "how we want", it tells us how to do them, through permission in the rules. You have just killed your argument by your own hand.

You are confusing RAI with laissez faire.

There are no rules defining how to purchase so to satisfy RAW we only need to produce legal combinations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Klowny wrote:

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:


In this case the captain dose have access, but loses it if he upgrades the armour as he no longer has the required piece

What rule says he loses it?

A Terminator Captain still has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour

Hey col, quick question. Since he has permission to take a chainfist irrespective of the armour he is wearing, why did you make that convoluted procedure of buying the chainfist before equipping the Cataphractii armour?

You spent pages upon pages asking people to come up with a reason as to why your stepped process was wrong, and completely invalidated it here?

If he has permission to take it, then the order in which he takes the wargear shouldn't matter?

So he can

Buy the cataphractii armour, then buy the chainfist yes?

He needs terminator armour in order to replace his power sword for a chain fist.

He may take Terminator Weapons (e.g. a chainfist) if he is in Cataphractii armour.

Wargear:
Chainfist
Cataphractii
Bike

This is not a legal combination. The chainfist is present without the required terminator armor being worn.
If the terminator armor was worn a bike may not a purchased.

Chainfist requires terminator armor to be worn to take.
Bike cannot be taken with terminator armor.

This is the "final list" we have submitted. It obviously has a problem.

Ceann wrote:
Wargear:
Chainfist
Cataphractii
Bike

This is not a legal combination. The chainfist is present without the required terminator armor being worn.
If the terminator armor was worn a bike is not a purchase.

Incorrect. It is a legal combination.

The Terminator Captain model has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour.

A Terminator Captain in Cataphractii armour can purchase a bike.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

Ceann wrote:
I just had a thought. Maybe it is more simple than this.

Col said he wanted to go in order.
Ok lets go in order.

Since we are doing this sequentially. From top to bottom.

The page says this.

Option 1.

May replace a power sword with a relic blade.


Option 2.

May replace Terminator Armor with Cataphractii

Option 3.

May take items from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons or and/or Chapter Relics.

Well RAW seems to indicate that we have to make the decision to wear Terminator or Cataphractii BEFORE we decide what items we want to take from the Terminator Weapons, Special Issue Weapons and/or Chapter Relics.

The problem with this excellent point is that Col actually does not argue from a RAW perspective, but rather a RAI perspective and just cloaks it with a RAW veneer. So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:
Wargear:
Chainfist
Cataphractii
Bike

This is not a legal combination. The chainfist is present without the required terminator armor being worn.
If the terminator armor was worn a bike is not a purchase.

Incorrect. It is a legal combination.

The Terminator Captain model has permission to take a chainfist, irrespective of whether he is donning terminator or Cataphractii armour.

A Terminator Captain in Cataphractii armour can purchase a bike.

1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)

You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

You do not have a legal combination at the end.
The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.
If Terminator Armor is worn you cannot take a bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1) I equip my Terminator Captain model, replacing his power sword with a chainfist. (He is in terminator armour so he may replace and he does)

2) I swap the Terminator Captain's terminator armour for Cataphractii terminator armour. (He keeps his chainfist since the Captain model may legally take Terminator Weapon items)

3) The Terminator Captain purchases a bike. (He is not restricted from doing so since he is not in terminator armour)

4) I now have a Terminator Captain with a chainfist and a bike in Cataphractii armour. (He has a completely legal configuration for Cataphractii armour)




Rules quote?

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

If he is taking a chain fist then he has already decided what armor he is wearing.
He may not take a bike.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:
Cataphractii TERMINATOR ARMOUR
Chainfist
LEGAL.

Add bike, not legal.

Why, because as the SM codex states, terminator may NOT take a bike or jump pack.

And this is a terminator captain from AoD? Who if you wish may wear Cataphractii terminator armour, which is terminator armour!

NO BIKE!!!

Cataphractii terminator armour isn't terminator armour.

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

NOT INCORRECT: How can you be a TERMINATOR CAPTAIN if your not a TERMINATOR!!!! Therefore you have TERMINATOR ARMOUR, so pick any terminator wargear, of which a BIKE and JUMPPACK is specifically Excluded.

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

If he is taking a chain fist then he has already decided what armor he is wearing.
He may not take a bike.

Incorrect. He selects his armour after swapping his power sword for a chain fist. Perfectly legal.

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be a legal combination...? Am I wrong?

 firstsilentprophet wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

NOT INCORRECT: How can you be a TERMINATOR CAPTAIN if your not a TERMINATOR!!!! Therefore you have TERMINATOR ARMOUR, so pick any terminator wargear, of which a BIKE and JUMPPACK is specifically Excluded.

Dude, you need to sit down. This discussion is strictly about literal interpretations of the words as written. No one would ever entertain this in an actual game, except maybe Col.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

NOT INCORRECT: How can you be a TERMINATOR CAPTAIN if your not a TERMINATOR!!!! Therefore you have TERMINATOR ARMOUR, so pick any terminator wargear, of which a BIKE and JUMPPACK is specifically Excluded.

Please start with reading the actual rules involved before polluting the thread with uninformed opinion. At the very least, read this entire thread.

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

Laissez-faire has no place in a RAW discussion. You do know that RAW stands for Rules As Written correct? That means there is no devil may care attitude in the reading of the RAW. However, your history of rules arguments does indeed show a laissez-faire attitude to the RAW aka Rules As Written. Your attitude is also known as RAI.

 Klowny wrote:


Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

What do the rules say about purchasing? Nothing.

So you can do what you want as long as you produce a valid legal combination for your list.

 Klowny wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
So while you have made a RAW argument from what I can guess is a match to how it is listed in the book, Col has already said that you can buy gear "how we want" (once again RAI), so need not pay attention to your post.

There are no rules for purchasing items so it's anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

This has nothing to do with RAI. Quit confusing laissez-faire with RAI. They are NOT the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:


You purchase gear from the top down. You must decide your armor type before other purchases besides a relic blade.

Rules quote?

If no rules then anything goes as long as you produce a legal combination at the end.

Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

We actually have a precedence for buying items.
Choose any unit you like in the codex.

The first choice will be purchasing models and each subsequent choice will be permitted based on the number of models purchased or items. You cannot choose to buy 5 chain fists without having first purchased 5 models to wield them.

This tells us that the armor type must be decided as it is the second option, prior to the decision of choosing weapons or special wargear.
This is totally allowable in the rules and legal.

.

 firstsilentprophet wrote:

Ceann wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Ceann wrote:

The Terminator Armor is required to be worn in order to take a chain fist.

Incorrect.

A Terminator Captain "may take items from the Terminator Weapons [list] (e.g chain fist)

If he is taking a chain fist then he has already decided what armor he is wearing.
He may not take a bike.

Of coarse it is. How with a straight face can you say Cataphractii TERMINATOR armourr in not NERMINATOR armour?

My power armour squads use Mk3 armour, so they dont have to follow rules for power armour because Mk3 power armour inst power armour?

My terminator captain doesn't have to follow the terminator captain rules because he really the emperor in disguise.

Quote any source - prove that Cataphractii TERMINATOR armour is not TERMINATOR armour!

col_impact wrote:

 Klowny wrote:


Sorry guys trying to wrap my head around it.

So if there are no rules regarding purchasing items, how come I can't buy cataphractii armour and then buy a chainfist? Surely if it's a legal combination then the order in which I buy the items doesn't matter?

If it's legal to buy a chainfist and then buy the armour, then surely it HAS to be legal to buy the armour first and then the chainfist? Otherwise it can't be legal...? Am I wrong?

What do the rules say about purchasing? Nothing.

So you can do what you want as long as you produce a valid legal combination for your list.

So I buy the armour, and then the chainfist? Yes? So that whole procedure you had before wasn't necessary. This is a much easier way if arguing your point dude. No need for that process you had before? Unless I'm missing something? If there is an exclusion one way won't that mean the other way also has an exclusion?

Now I'm really confused