Albertorius wrote: The range might be "huge" at this point, but the actual tooling resources devoted to it, not so much: In the... year and a half?... that it's been released we've got sprues for eight gangs, a character pack and a brute, if I'm not mistaken, plus some assorted resin stuff.
Which is quite impressive considering it isn't a "main line" game, and outstrips the number of releases you might reasonably expect from another company for a game that is one of their core products.
Context is important here: I'm wondering what you're comparing it to in order to come to the conclusion that the number of releases has been underwhelming.
Albertorius wrote: In terms of sprues, though, each gang has been saddled with having a single sprue per gang, which... well, certainly imposes limits on what you can get away with, although I'm sure it's cheaper, particularly when compared with the double or triple-sprue regular 40k boxes.
Oh, yes, how awful that the gangs of Necromunda be "saddled" with a plastic release at all, eh?
Sarcasm aside, you are actually using a comparator here. And it's completely bonkers because you're comparing apples to oranges. Necromunda is not 40k. A box of Intercessors is going to potentially outsell the entire Necromunda range. That isn't to say Necromunda is therefore unpopular, but comparing the three-sprue Intercessor box to the Necromunda gangs is a false equivalence as a result.
For the fact that the Necromunda boxes have only a single repeated sprue to play with, the designers have managed to pack a great deal of character and options into them. Again, though, some of this is subjective. I get that. But the very fact that Necromunda has plastic boxed sets at all is still somewhat mindblowing to a player like me who genuinely did, painstakingly, convert Van Saars and Orlocks to hold more exotic weaponry than their original metal models back in the 1990s.
Albertorius wrote: I would say that, in terms of actual resources devoted to it, I feel like they've spent as many for the whole line as maybe for a single 40k/AoS army? Less, I expect, if you don't count the scenery sprues (as those can and will be certainly at least as useful for their other games).
Which is to be expected. This cannot be a complaint. It's a B-line skirmish game. I love it. Lots of people love it. But our individual love for the game, for the game type, for the background, etc, isn't enough to simply make it as popular, and therefore as profitable, as Warhammer 40,000. It is what it is. Again, that we have plastics at all is pretty amazing.
Albertorius wrote: It is certainly better than nothing at all, of course. I'm not sure anyone has said otherwise, no matter how much people try to misrepresent statements to ridicule the "other side".
But it hasn't stopped you comparing apples to oranges in this very post.
Albertorius wrote: By way of an actual example, let me take a look at the new SoB release, which by the way is still ongoing and people is pretty peeved off that they still don't have all they need to properly field them: They first got a limited run of monopose minis, which even though it's not really available anymore they had to make, and IIRC that was... three big sprues? I'm not sure. Then you have: Exorcist (two vehicle sprues), Junith Eruita (three character sprues), Hospitaller (two character sprues), Arco-Flagellants (one infantry sprue), Penitent Engines (three infantry sprues), Battle Sisters Squad (three infantry sprues), Retributor Squad (two infantry sprues) and The Triumph of Saint Katherine (three infantry sprues), so that's 2 big sprues, 12 regular sprues and 5 small sprues, for a single army that's not even finished releasing their first wave of stuff (IIRC there's still celestians, characters and Rhinos/Immolators to go). I am, btw, very happy that we have plastic sisters now and collecting them, even though as per current GW policy, their minis are more monopose/multipart than actual multipose minis, which is also the case with Necromunda and everything else, of course.
Necromunda, OTOH, if we count everything released or in preorder so far, has sprues for eight gangs (the six houses, not arbitrers and charnel guys), most with a single sprue but two of those with two, one Kal Jericho and the Ambot, so that's a total of 11 regular sprues and one small sprue, released over the best part of two years, with, apparently, another four sprues slated for 2020 (Ogryns and a "stimmer and forgeborn" equivalent sprue for Escher, Orlock and Van Saar).
Apples. Oranges. Apples. Oranges.
"I'm going to compare a much more profitable core game with a less profitable specialist game in order to demonstrate a false equivalence."
Albertorius wrote: Personally I'm happier with what we got (meaning the regular gang sprues) than with these new ones, as they feel more limited and show an unfortunate lack of cross compatibility with the old ones, which I feel is disappointing.
Subjective and dependent on your modelling ability. The new models are simply a diversification of the standard Goliath gang. You either think this is a good thing or a bad thing. Personally, I like things that differentiate the factions further, and add visual character in line with the background, whatever that may be (and that's something that is determined by GW: I'm never against a retcon if it means I get shiny new models that meet the criteria I've laid out here).
Albertorius wrote: ... because it means it's new stuff to have, use and remix...
Then we're in agreement.
Albertorius wrote: ... but me being happy with it doesn't mean I can't also state that Newcromunda is a line with limited resources allocated and that a fair amount of the time those resources are not being used as well as they could/should.
Except that's an odd argument because you're mixing the economics up with other things that, again, are entirely subjective. I don't understand why these two subjects have been mixed up. It's up to GW's specialist games department where they direct their limited resources, and that determines the shape of Necromunda. And what they decided to do is release a plastic boxed gang for each of the core gangs from the original game in a way that was economically feasible at the time. Context is, again, king here; Necromunda would not exist at all were it not for the fact that the designers and GW bosses came up with a way of delivering the game to us in a way that works for them.
What we "got" over the last year and a half is, quite likely, the absolute limit of what we could have reasonably expected in the first place. These margins are thiiiiiin, dude. Thiiiiiiiiiiin. Have I emphasised how thin these margins are? In the cold light of Winter 2020, it's starting to look like the game has done well enough to justify further expansion and diversification of the currently released line. That's great news, and apparently has led directly into the production of additional sprues of plastics for each of the core gangs, AS WELL AS an entirely new gang in the shape of the Ogryn servitors.
ekwatts wrote: The new Necromunda boxes are not disappointing.
They have options, they're plastic/easily converted, they're decent value for money (when compared to similar companies' skirmish games, for example), they're stylish, theyre readily available.
These things are all subjective. But I just feel like rejecting the majority of these aspects means that you don't... really... like Necromunda very much?
Yeah, when I see people saying stuff like "old Necromunda models had more options" I can't help but immediately slip into accusatory/dismissive mode. Those are LIES. It makes it sound like those people never played old Necromunda, don't play new Necromunda, and are just bad sport trolls looking to transpose their (sometimes legitimate) problems with other elements of the GW brand onto this system, at any cost (including sheer dishonesty).
Yeah, so I'm confused now. I haven't seen anyone saying such thing? OTOH, it is true that the older metals had more poses than the current plastics, and there were some pretty decent weapon sprues (metal, of course) very readily available...
It's true that the second generation / Fanatic gangs had more options than the original single-piece models, being (IIRC) mail-order only massively reduced their visibility (and some people still don't know they actually existed!) -
ekwatts wrote: Which is quite impressive considering it isn't a "main line" game, and outstrips the number of releases you might reasonably expect from another company for a game that is one of their core products.
Context is important here: I'm wondering what you're comparing it to in order to come to the conclusion that the number of releases has been underwhelming.
Er, no, it's not. What it is is "we're going to use as many resources in a two-year plan as we would in a single army release for one of our two main games". No more, no less than that.
Albertorius wrote: In terms of sprues, though, each gang has been saddled with having a single sprue per gang, which... well, certainly imposes limits on what you can get away with, although I'm sure it's cheaper, particularly when compared with the double or triple-sprue regular 40k boxes.
Oh, yes, how awful that the gangs of Necromunda be "saddled" with a plastic release at all, eh?
Oh, yes, that's totally not what I said, though.
What I said is that using a single sprue for each gang, instead of the more frequently used two or even three sprues per box, imposes limits on what you can include. And would you disagree in that those are limiting and it would be less limiting were they two for the same ten guys? And yes, you're "saddled" with them because now that is what you will have. And apparently, new sprues going forward won't be compatible, if the new Goliath sprue is anything to go by.
Sarcasm aside, you are actually using a comparator here. And it's completely bonkers because you're comparing apples to oranges. Necromunda is not 40k. A box of Intercessors is going to potentially outsell the entire Necromunda range. That isn't to say Necromunda is therefore unpopular, but comparing the three-sprue Intercessor box to the Necromunda gangs is a false equivalence as a result.
Yeah. Also water's wet and sun's bright. So? Is Necromunda less popular than any single 40k army? Because that's the level of resources assigned: that of a single, not Space Marine, 40k army.
Albertorius wrote: I would say that, in terms of actual resources devoted to it, I feel like they've spent as many for the whole line as maybe for a single 40k/AoS army? Less, I expect, if you don't count the scenery sprues (as those can and will be certainly at least as useful for their other games).
Which is to be expected. This cannot be a complaint. It's a B-line skirmish game. I love it. Lots of people love it. But our individual love for the game, for the game type, for the background, etc, isn't enough to simply make it as popular, and therefore as profitable, as Warhammer 40,000. It is what it is. Again, that we have plastics at all is pretty amazing.
You're happy with it, that's great. Different people will think otherwise. I think it's "OK", but it certainly could be better, and I certainly would have preferred better cross compatibility with these newer sprues.
Albertorius wrote: It is certainly better than nothing at all, of course. I'm not sure anyone has said otherwise, no matter how much people try to misrepresent statements to ridicule the "other side".
But it hasn't stopped you comparing apples to oranges in this very post.
In this case, "apples" is "Necromunda's mini line" and "oranges" is "A single 40k army's mini line". Just for reference.
What we "got" over the last year and a half is, quite likely, the absolute limit of what we could have reasonably expected in the first place. These margins are thiiiiiin, dude. Thiiiiiiiiiiin. Have I emphasised how thin these margins are? In the cold light of Winter 2020, it's starting to look like the game has done well enough to justify further expansion and diversification of the currently released line. That's great news, and apparently has led directly into the production of additional sprues of plastics for each of the core gangs, AS WELL AS an entirely new gang in the shape of the Ogryn servitors.
...according to whom, exactly?
Also, what margins? Profit margins? GW's? Thin? Are you serious? Do you know what actual costs to profit margin does GW work with?
Maybe you mean that in comparison with using those same resources for anything else, like a 40k army, the full of the Necromunda line is less profitable? If so, I would say it's debatable, as how well an army sells is not fixed.
...anyways. I don't think this discussion has much legs, and I would prefer to stop before being insulting (and if you feel I was, please accept my sincere apology, because it was not my intention).
What I said is that using a single sprue for each gang, instead of the more frequently used two or even three sprues per box, imposes limits on what you can include. And would you disagree in that those are limiting and it would be less limiting were they two for the same ten guys? And yes, you're "saddled" with them because now that is what you will have. And apparently, new sprues going forward won't be compatible, if the new Goliath sprue is anything to go by.
The new sprue will be plastic, at the same scale, and in the same style. It's compatible af.
What I said is that using a single sprue for each gang, instead of the more frequently used two or even three sprues per box, imposes limits on what you can include. And would you disagree in that those are limiting and it would be less limiting were they two for the same ten guys? And yes, you're "saddled" with them because now that is what you will have. And apparently, new sprues going forward won't be compatible, if the new Goliath sprue is anything to go by.
The new sprue will be plastic, at the same scale, and in the same style. It's compatible af.
Same way as skitarii sprues are compatible with SoB, perhaps? Because the stimmer is not even on the same scale as the rest of the golios.
...well, neither are the not juves, now that I think about it.
Also, what margins? Profit margins? GW's? Thin? Are you serious? Do you know what actual costs to profit margin does GW work with?
Maybe you mean that in comparison with using those same resources for anything else, like a 40k army, the full of the Necromunda line is less profitable? If so, I would say it's debatable, as how well an army sells is not fixed.
The 40k/Necromunda comparison is simply absurd, that's my point. Why are you making such an absurd comparison? No, Necromunda is not as profitable as a single 40k army. Necromunda is still profitable. But plastic production has a couple of bottlenecks that make it difficult to justify Necromunda over, as in my previous example, more and more boxes of Primaris Intercessors.
Again, an Intercessor box consists of what is, effectively, in an economic sense, two Necromunda gangs, (we aren't counting repeated sprues in this comparison since the cost of a repeat is neglible against the cost of developing that sprue from scratch; it isn't trivial, either, but it's a different economy of scale). Intercessors are a vital component in the most popular army in the most popular game system that GW produce. The profit factor is enormous. Even a box of Ork Boyz still multiplies better than any Necromunda gang. Because Necromunda is a niche within a niche. So let's say you're Designer A from the Specialist Games department and you want to convince GW to produce plastic gang boxes for a proposed Necromunda reboot. You have to justify it to GW. You have to explain to them what the benefit is of them pausing production of, say, a Tau Battlesuit might be in order to cast a production run of boxes that will likely sell far, far less than any single item in the Space Marine range.
That's a tough sell, and you don't make that argument based on profit alone. There are reputational benefits to rebooting Necromunda and supplying it with stylish, optionable figurines. There are potential inroads to GW core products. Paints might see a bump. Terrain boxes that work across game systems can be designed. Etc. But even in terms of sheer manpower, regardless of the plastic production tooling, you're looking at an outlay of thousands over a potential year+ lead-in time. Being ultra-conservative with estimates of salaries alone, you're looking at potentially anywhere between £150,000-£250,000 before you even get a box set on the shelves. GW can afford it. It can even afford for the endeavour to fail, if necessary. But why would it when it could just keep pumping out Intercessors?
That's why it's a false equivalence. I imagine that, from the very beginning, Necromunda had a tight budget, a tight production window and therefore either a super-conservative allowance on sprue production (based on the Blood Bowl production/release model) or at least a duty to try and keep the cost (in terms of both sprue design (ie: limiting to a single sprue-per-gang) and production (ie: a limited window with which to produce the required sprues in production runs possibly lower in volume than for 40k)) as low as possible while still providing a product that was of good quality, comparable to other recent boxed games.
This is disregarding the fact that most "starter" sets are loss-leaders that don't make anywhere near the expected profit vs. production costs or the individual items.
Those restrictions have lead to the current situation.
Which is this:
1. The restrictions have limited the possibilities of figure production in specific ways (while still producing a product that is aesthetically and flexibly better than the previous 1990s iteration).
2. The game would not exist without those restrictions.
You either want Necromunda or you don't. You want your cake and you want to eat it. Hey, buddy; we all do. But the real world is... well, real.
I literally cannot see any other way Necromunda would ever have been made without those restrictions based on its "niche within a niche" status.
I would also love for every gang to have ultra-modularity, to have two fully-featured sprues with all weapon choices and gear loadouts, with clearly defined "champions" and "leaders". That would be amazing. (NB: those boxes would be in the £35 range, not the £25, so... something else for the usual complainants to complain about if it were ever to be the case).
It is also 1. Not going to happen and 2. Not going to happ- oh wait.
Problem is, of course, if you follow that line of though GW would never, ever, produce anything else but Space Marines, because the cost/return is the best there, seeing as back when I was working there the SMtac box was selling more than the whole of WFB.
witchdoctor wrote: Any word on when the Ogryns are scheduled to hit? The community article said "later this year," but does that mean like March later or Q3 later?
Also, any idea when the floor tiles will be back in stock?
Regarding the floor tiles, I've asked three different staffers, and they all say it was one and done and they aren't coming back, they agreed this was stupid since those things are a license to print money, but its never stopped GW doing something stupid anyway.
Also man this has been a negative thread these past couple of pages, who knew plastic kits could create such an argument.
witchdoctor wrote: Any word on when the Ogryns are scheduled to hit? The community article said "later this year," but does that mean like March later or Q3 later?
Also, any idea when the floor tiles will be back in stock?
Regarding the floor tiles, I've asked three different staffers, and they all say it was one and done and they aren't coming back, they agreed this was stupid since those things are a license to print money, but its never stopped GW doing something stupid anyway.
Also man this has been a negative thread these past couple of pages, who knew plastic kits could create such an argument.
They’re still on the website with a “Temporarily Out of Stock” sticker, which they do not do for a once and done product (which would just say “No longer available online” and be greyed out)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given the size, shape and lack of sprue, I wonder if they’re outsourced, which means reordering would take awhile whilst they wait for a production slot.
Albertorius wrote: If they sell well, it would be kinda daft not to keep selling them.
The problem is they're committed to this "just in time" manufacturing thing where they order exactly what they(estimate) they need exactly when they need it and not a unit more, so we're at the mercy of their estimations on both ends - if they under-estimate initial demand it sells out too quickly, but even if that happens they might estimate that there isn't enough demand remaining to immediately sell through a whole second print run, so they just never bother doing another.
I think the utter horror at the thought of facing another Dreadfleet scenario combined with their storage and space issues in recent years has led them to radically over-compensate, but I doubt they're going to change so long as they're raking in cash even as they leave big chunks of it lying on the table, so don't expect that just because something sells out quickly they'll make more.
In this case I hope they do, because my initial plan of just casting up my own duplicates of my set in the event they sold out before I could find space in my hobby budget to buy more(Omniscient Narrator Voice: They did.) has run into the slight snag that they're too big to fit into my pressure chamber
I just think the eggheads at GW really like to talk about how games are so popular they "sell out in hours", so they do low print runs. Otherwise, after years and years of this they'd have to be some of the biggest idiots in the business to keep 'underestimating' like they do.
I think underestimating might be warranted on the floor tiles. I mean, as far as terrain goes, the gaming surface usually isn't a must have and there's plenty of competing alternatives including the paper mat in the box. I wasn't interested until I got the Hive Warzone box and realized that the floor tiles might make the modular setup of the zone mortalis terrain more stable. (It does make a difference right, being able to click the columns into the vents and such?)
But I don’t see them being one and done, at all. I mean, there’s clearly demand for them. And with the tooling costs already paid for, why not?
We know with a high level of certainty they were a china job, their initial leak was the shipping manifest from China.
witchdoctor wrote:I think underestimating might be warranted on the floor tiles. I mean, as far as terrain goes, the gaming surface usually isn't a must have and there's plenty of competing alternatives including the paper mat in the box. I wasn't interested until I got the Hive Warzone box and realized that the floor tiles might make the modular setup of the zone mortalis terrain more stable. (It does make a difference right, being able to click the columns into the vents and such?)
I think there are a number of factors in underestimating the number of floor tiles they sell.
I think they assumed the total number they'd sell was a fraction of the number of Dark Uprising sets. There was also a disconnect between the number in each package to the number you needed to be practical. They were packaged 4 tiles per unit, meaning if you play the way the designers had intended, 3x3 for the Dark Uprising terrain, you needed to buy 3 boxes of the tiles, or for a more typical 4x4 table you needed 4 boxes of tiles. They only imported 1500 sets to the US, meaning fewer than 400 people could actually get enough tiles... but realistically far fewer did.
That's before you consider the significant number of ways people are using the tiles that aren't what GW intended. You have people using them to supplement the FW sets they already owned. You have people building towers by using the tiles not just for the ground floor but to build intact upper floors for their boards. I've seen online one guy building to cover a 4x4 table with cubes of terrain each with 3 distinct levels. He bought 10 sets of tiles. So you had a handful of people buying as many as they could get their hands on.
I know at least around me a number of people just bought 1 set to see what the tiles were like and when they went to buy the rest of what they needed the tiles were already sold out.
witchdoctor wrote:It does make a difference right, being able to click the columns into the vents and such?
Yes, it’s pretty solid when everything’s clicked into place.
aka_mythos wrote:I know at least around me a number of people just bought 1 set to see what the tiles were like and when they went to buy the rest of what they needed the tiles were already sold out.
*Raises hand*. That’s exactly my situation. Although I think I only need one more set, as the Zone Mortalis missions all seem to only use 7 (or less) tiles.
Also, what margins? Profit margins? GW's? Thin? Are you serious? Do you know what actual costs to profit margin does GW work with?
Maybe you mean that in comparison with using those same resources for anything else, like a 40k army, the full of the Necromunda line is less profitable? If so, I would say it's debatable, as how well an army sells is not fixed.
The 40k/Necromunda comparison is simply absurd, that's my point. Why are you making such an absurd comparison? No, Necromunda is not as profitable as a single 40k army. Necromunda is still profitable. But plastic production has a couple of bottlenecks that make it difficult to justify Necromunda over, as in my previous example, more and more boxes of Primaris Intercessors.
GW would never sell Necromunda if it didn't meet the threshold of profitability they want. Unless its a particularly large bundle their margins are pretty consistent, because they let margin dictate price and not the other way around. Saying what's more profitable can mean a number of things, it sounds like half the people hear mean in absolute dollars and half mean in marginal percentage, while saying things that confuse the two.
In absolute terms Necroumnda doesn't generate as much profit as a 40k army, but it doesn't need to to be as profitable. In a way its easier and it stands a better chance of exceeding expectations and bringing in a larger overall margin relative to what GW puts in. Relative to the typical 40k kit, a necromunda kit can more easily benefit from economy scale. Between duplicate sprues in Necromunda kit, and a greater number of unique sprues in a 40k kit, a typical necromunda kit of comparable retail price only has to sell about 1/5 as many kits to net the same percent margin.
When we then look at Necromunda as a whole, you end up with the 6 key gang kits collectively only having to sell as well as 2 typical 40k kits. This is before we consider the profitability at a game system level profits and how Necromunda can impact GW's overall profitability and reporting to investors. Yeah there are fewer people buying kits overall but GW typically has to produce 6-7 40k kits, with about 20 unique sprues between them to induce the sale of books and peripheral items. With Necromunda its probably close to 1 in 6 kit sales results in the added sale of one of the Necromunda rule book of some kind. 40k because of the size of armies while people have to buy more kits there is a greater gap in duration between spending surges. GW estimates how much revenue and profit it can potentially generate by looking at the average expenditure. But these surge purchases behaviorally exceed that average month to month rate, so not only is it profitable, its profit that goes towards exceeding goals. Further it targets hobbyists and hobby dollars that aren't necessarily otherwise going to 40k or AoS; so its an area of potential growth. This is what's driving GW to reinvest and put out even more Necromunda kits and books this year over last.
Albertorius wrote: If they sell well, it would be kinda daft not to keep selling them.
The problem is they're committed to this "just in time" manufacturing thing where they order exactly what they(estimate) they need exactly when they need it and not a unit more, so we're at the mercy of their estimations on both ends - if they under-estimate initial demand it sells out too quickly, but even if that happens they might estimate that there isn't enough demand remaining to immediately sell through a whole second print run, so they just never bother doing another.
I think the utter horror at the thought of facing another Dreadfleet scenario combined with their storage and space issues in recent years has led them to radically over-compensate, but I doubt they're going to change so long as they're raking in cash even as they leave big chunks of it lying on the table, so don't expect that just because something sells out quickly they'll make more.
In this case I hope they do, because my initial plan of just casting up my own duplicates of my set in the event they sold out before I could find space in my hobby budget to buy more(Omniscient Narrator Voice: They did.) has run into the slight snag that they're too big to fit into my pressure chamber
This is why GW needs to shift to doing pre-orders as actual pre-orders and not just a pre-sale. Most companies run pre-orders because it allows them to gauge demand and ensure they produce enough. With GW's apprehensiveness they should put up pre-orders in the last week of normal production and depending on that data extend the production run or not. "Just in time" to work relies on the managed predictability of sales, while GW's keep release dates and product details hush until the last minute before things go on sale and sell on codex release cycle that cause spikes of unpredictable demand.
GW typically sees 1/2 the total sales of a kit in the first 90 days, and don't match that for 3 years. This is why they're paranoid about holding significant amounts of stock. For "just in time" to work a company has to understand its lead; how long from when they say "we need more" to when those kits can be shipped to the customer. When you look at their history of getting things back in stock, 3 months is pretty close to the average wait time. This means if GW's stock on hand doesn't exceed what they might need for the first 5-6 months there is a very high likelihood they'll experience a shortage at some point in those crucial months, so even if we assume GW's estimates are based weak data they should minimally be producing that many kits. Those 2-3 months of extra stock though only amount to an extra 25% over the amount of kits, meaning if demand is more than 25% greater than they anticpated they will experiance shortages.
That's the problem with pre-orders on a just in time managed product... you're saying we need 500*X and X is an estimate instead of saying we need 20 times our first day preorders, or 10 times our first 30 days of pre-orders, whichever is higher... where 10 and 20 are more easily based on historicals.
aka_mythos wrote: With GW's apprehensiveness they should put up pre-orders in the last week of normal production and depending on that data extend the production run or not.
That only works if they do pre-orders six months before the release date, since they need to allow time to ship around the world once the production run is done.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And that would entail putting out detailed previews of minis months off.
Not to mention they would have to be refundable and at significant portion of pre-orders would be cancelled when they release the next weeks pre-order goodness. The overstock potential would probably be even worse!
aka_mythos wrote: With GW's apprehensiveness they should put up pre-orders in the last week of normal production and depending on that data extend the production run or not.
That only works if they do pre-orders six months before the release date, since they need to allow time to ship around the world once the production run is done.
I'm speaking in typical time frames, because when GW goes out of stock it typically takes 3 months before its back in stock, at least in my experience. So I believe with proper manufacturing management the window of starting preorders would ideally occur before the initial production line for the first run shuts down, but in the very least starting preorders any time before the 3 month mark would guarantee they could produce enough stock before the initial product release to meet demand and have it on hand. Even if there is some lapse in availability that lapse ends up being significantly shorter than waiting until the current pre-order time frame. Yes this runs counter to GW's policies and rationales but that's precisely why its worth criticism.
From an investor stand point... if a product sells out in the first week, when we know GW projects their stock size to meet the initial 3+ months demand they can very easily extrapolate how much money GW is failing to capture in sales. IF GW sells out in the first week it means they've sold less than 40% of what they could have sold over the next 3 years... we know that even if GW gets its products back in stock sales do not necessarily recover from that period but typically continue from sales volume consistent with the time frame they return to stock. So if it takes 3 months to get a product back in stock after selling out in the first week GW can estimate it will lose ~30% of the projected sales. This necessitates any future sales be done in a higher margin form, such as when we see box sets split to smaller kits. These practices are text book cases of things you want to avoid because they promote bootlegging; so even if GW eventually captures that lost revenue recasters are able to significantly benefit in that interim. GW says to investors counterfeit products are a major concern from them yet they continue a practice they entirely control that significantly promote recasts.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And that would entail putting out detailed previews of minis months off.
Not to mention they would have to be refundable and at significant portion of pre-orders would be cancelled when they release the next weeks pre-order goodness. The overstock potential would probably be even worse!
Well I don't think we should celebrate an anti-consumer policy and we should instead consider the money they lose out on by having their policy this way. They have had major product releases that sell out and sell out relatively quickly and by GW's own investor shared data you can reasonably extrapolate that they're leaving 30% or more of what they could make on the table, they can instead attempt to satisfy all their interested customers and without the text book promoting of counterfeiting products. In the long run sales of illegitimate products erode sales more than just that initial lost sale. Because GW didn't sell us whatever kit some guy who found a recaster to get that product now regularly invites his friends to order from china.
The overstock potential isn't high. With the production management GW ascribes too they're starting off with something like 40% of what they expect to sell over the first 3 years. Even if every preorder canceled then they just don't perform the subsequent production runs that would when they go to produce the other half of what they anticipated selling. And IF you're thinking "but who's to say they will sell them at that point, they could be stuck with them"... but its the same amount of risk as when they put something up for pre-order, no different. IF some how it is worse, then it means they made a crappy product and they shouldn't be making any money off of it or forcing it on ill informed customers by avoiding refunds. IF such a product existed that it garnered so much ill will and everyone canceled preorders, you probably wouldn't want it out in the wild because it would hurt the brand image. Its just like those bad vacuform craters they recalled and refunded after selling them with images of resin castings, many many years ago, Those are the kind of products that would get that drastic a reaction. Everything in between those cases isn't just mitigatable risk, but easily mitigated risk. GW manufactures the majority of its products it isn't just a retailer, it already makes a regular habit of having stores return stock that it then destroys or stocks as direct sales only. Its able to do that because almost everything about their products can be recycled directly or indirectly into their manufacturing process or simply put into mail-order stock. They don't panic in this case because they've planned for it, and just like that they can plan for the minimal risk of preorders.
The thing is, showing your new releases several months before you are releasing them also promotes bootlegging. Garage companies take the previewed design, turn out something compatible in a week or two, and then have a good couple of months to sell it before the GW version is actually released. This is precisely the situation that GW aimed to avoid back when they stopped doing extended pre-orders a decade or so ago.
Clearly enough of one for them to want to stop it. Although ultimately the codex entries with no models for years on end would have been a bigger problem... I suspect that very few of the various, largely awful, resin Thunderwolves out there would have sold if GW had released theirs 9 months earlier.
EDIT I constantly get disappointed by these streams whenever I tune in. They never do actual previews. Instead it's 1 hour of flannel for stuff we already know. Only thing of note is the ambition to have a model for every profile they've put out. I presume that this includes the list of dramatis personae currently model-less.
Lmao, that kind of seems like a hilarious pipe dream. Between all the hired guns, guilds, scenario-specific baddies, etc. there must be 50+ profiles that fall into that set.
Baxx, do you have the exact number? You're probably the only person in the world who might actually be tracking that.
zedmeister wrote: EDIT I constantly get disappointed by these streams whenever I tune in. They never do actual previews. Instead it's 1 hour of flannel for stuff we already know.
Yeah I'm not making the mistake of wasting my time on this sort of thing again
Random Necromunda Question - Chaos Spawn can't gain XP/advancements, can they? It doesn't explicitly say they can't but there's no Skill Tables for them, nor an indication if they're Gangers or Champions.
beast_gts wrote: Random Necromunda Question - Chaos Spawn can't gain XP/advancements, can they? It doesn't explicitly say they can't but there's no Skill Tables for them, nor an indication if they're Gangers or Champions.
Already stated in "gaining experience" section of chaos cult.
beast_gts wrote: Random Necromunda Question - Chaos Spawn can't gain XP/advancements, can they? It doesn't explicitly say they can't but there's no Skill Tables for them, nor an indication if they're Gangers or Champions.
Already stated in "gaining experience" section of chaos cult.
It's odd they are previewing the goliath stuff on twitch after it's already out. The streams were worthwhile to preview upcoming content, usually they would do that in the week or two leading up to release.
Thargrim wrote: It's odd they are previewing the goliath stuff on twitch after it's already out. The streams were worthwhile to preview upcoming content, usually they would do that in the week or two leading up to release.
Trying to drum up more interest & sales perhaps? It's not a book existing Goliath players need, and there's not much in there for non-Goliaths (just the Slave Ogryn Gang?)
Book is handy even for existing Goliath players, some point change, restructure the fighter types and weapon restriction. new tactic card now printed in the book.
They are phasing out gang of the underhive with these new wave of gang codex.
zedmeister wrote: Only thing of note is the ambition to have a model for every profile they've put out. I presume that this includes the list of dramatis personae currently model-less.
Which is why they've spent time releasing new things rather than releasing minis for the things that still don't have minis. Cool.
zedmeister wrote: Only thing of note is the ambition to have a model for every profile they've put out. I presume that this includes the list of dramatis personae currently model-less.
Which is why they've spent time releasing new things rather than releasing minis for the things that still don't have minis. Cool.
I had that same sentiment, but then Forge World started releasing the Goliath Zerker and the Slave Guild units. All of the Dramatis Personae from Gangs of the Underhive are available, so I'm expecting that Forge World will trickle in more of them in the coming year. And with each of the new Gang Books, I'm expecting that each will be acompanied by at least a Guild and a Brute from the Gangs of the Underhive book.
I'll buy anything they put out in plastic. Can't be bothered with any of the FW releases and I'm confident I'm not alone. The plastic kits are infinitely better to work with.
Barksdale wrote: I'll buy anything they put out in plastic. Can't be bothered with any of the FW releases and I'm confident I'm not alone. The plastic kits are infinitely better to work with.
Then you’re missing out; I’ve got a couple of the special characters and one of the weapon packs and they’re gorgeous models. Very well designed and well cast.
Chopstick wrote: None of the remaining unreleased stuff are worth for a plastic treatment.
A sprue of hangers on could potential outsell some gangs. Generic multiparty bounty hunters and scum sprue could have the same potential.
They could also introduce new stuff linked to houses (like ogryns to Goliath), but also available others.
Hanger on usually don't show up on the board, limited by rep, alongside brute, also most of them kinda suck at...fighting, and they love to run away from your gang if you let them fight. Brute like Ambot is good at combat and do show up on board just like everyone else. Genereally low usage models, meant they're not really a good or exciting plastic release.
"Generic BH and scum" are meant to be any models you can find, If FW made one they'd probably call them "Venator gang", there're no clear depiction or art work for them, but could be considered "unreleased", and probably the only one that worth the plastic treatment.
Ogryn gang already confirmed plastic, and "stuffs linked to house" are just wishlist , they're not unreleased stuff
Barksdale wrote: I'll buy anything they put out in plastic. Can't be bothered with any of the FW releases and I'm confident I'm not alone. The plastic kits are infinitely better to work with.
Then you’re missing out; I’ve got a couple of the special characters and one of the weapon packs and they’re gorgeous models. Very well designed and well cast.
Yup. So far I've only the Beastman, still in his packet. But the cast is incredibly crisp.
Off to Nottinghams again around the end of March, and will likely pick up more. Including the Delaque Weapon Packs. I needs me webbers!
Barksdale wrote: I'll buy anything they put out in plastic. Can't be bothered with any of the FW releases and I'm confident I'm not alone. The plastic kits are infinitely better to work with.
Then you’re missing out; I’ve got a couple of the special characters and one of the weapon packs and they’re gorgeous models. Very well designed and well cast.
I could consider weapon packs, but resin Hired Gun miniatures have a different style than plastic miniatures. They are good models but they look like they belong into different game than plastic Gangs. For many collectors it is also a choice between getting none and getting everything and the latter becomes very expensive.
I bought first couple of Hired guns from FW but I have since put my purchases on hold. I may eventually buy all Blood Bowl Star Players but I don't think I can afford to do the same for Necromunda. For Adeptus Titanicus I have decided to ignore FW completely.
The joy of Necromunda is that, for hangers on, Scum and Bounty Hunters, the official sculpts are just one option.
Gunsmiths, Dome Runners, Sloppers etc can all be converted up from other kits - and provided the scale is roughly about nice, they don't even have to be GW kits.
Baxx, do you have the exact number? You're probably the only person in the world who might actually be tracking that.
That's a tall order Can't give you the exact number yet. It will be many, that's for sure. We are however also looking at high numbers for other contents of this game. Expecting to have at least 596 cards total in after the house books, inclduing 158 sub-plots and 333 tactics cards. 18 alliances! 17 gangs (29 if you include corrupted/infected variants). 10 favours tables (house,chaos, genestealer, outlaw, house gang-specific).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The joy of Necromunda is that, for hangers on, Scum and Bounty Hunters, the official sculpts are just one option.
Gunsmiths, Dome Runners, Sloppers etc can all be converted up from other kits - and provided the scale is roughly about nice, they don't even have to be GW kits.
FOR YOU!
If you don’t have a credit card/over 18 then the official models aren’t even available to you. My local stores can only stock plastic models, so FW is just not an option at retail. For some people Necromunda is a game, not a hobby. Making plastic available for gamers and hobbyists makes sense. Gamers because they now have models available for them and hobbyists so they have more conversion fodder. I don’t see how having more plastics is a bad thing especially if you love converting.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The joy of Necromunda is that, for hangers on, Scum and Bounty Hunters, the official sculpts are just one option.
Gunsmiths, Dome Runners, Sloppers etc can all be converted up from other kits - and provided the scale is roughly about nice, they don't even have to be GW kits.
FOR YOU!
If you don’t have a credit card/over 18 then the official models aren’t even available to you. My local stores can only stock plastic models, so FW is just not an option at retail. For some people Necromunda is a game, not a hobby. Making plastic available for gamers and hobbyists makes sense. Gamers because they now have models available for them and hobbyists so they have more conversion fodder. I don’t see how having more plastics is a bad thing especially if you love converting.
No one said having more plastic options is a bad thing..?
Thargrim wrote: It's odd they are previewing the goliath stuff on twitch after it's already out. The streams were worthwhile to preview upcoming content, usually they would do that in the week or two leading up to release.
Trying to drum up more interest & sales perhaps? It's not a book existing Goliath players need, and there's not much in there for non-Goliaths (just the Slave Ogryn Gang?)
House of Chains includes a lot of changes to the core rules. Everyone who wants to play N20 would need these rules updates, if not the book itself.
Baxx wrote: House of Chains includes a lot of changes to the core rules. Everyone who wants to play N20 would need these rules updates, if not the book itself.
The rules of the game haven't changed there is no N20, it's still N19. Just now you have a different way to build a Goliath gang. Seems all the gangs will evolve out of Hives of the Underhive--if you want. No one can make you play with these Codexes or HotU, it's your group's choice. Heck you could allow building of gangs using both since each have trade-offs. You just shouldn't be able to cherry pick from either.
Baxx, what would be those changes to the core rules you're talking about? Just for reference, at least.
Also, yeah, we know nobody's going to come and burn our books.
We. All. Know. Already. I don't think anyone still believes in the RPG/tabletop police, by now. So stating it every single time anyone talks bad about a new release doesn't exactly help, you know?
I mean, if we would rather play nekkid and decide to use chicken bones for dice, nobody would make us play different either.
Well ganger and lesser ganger (juve) can only buy weapon from gang list, but for now that only applied to new Goliath, expect the same for every clan house in the future.
They can still however, get wargear from trading post normally.
Saying that is like claiming the campaign variants in Book of Judgement etc are a whole new rules set. I mean, they’re not. Instead, they’re just further tools with which to craft your campaign, taking and leaving what you want.
Albertorius wrote: I must admit, I kind of have an issue with it being a "codex Goliath", as I don't exactly feel that something like that is what the game needs.
That's my biggest problem with the book (and the year and half we'll spend getting big books for the other 5 gangs) as none of them move the game forward. We're just going over the same ground for the second time (third in some cases).
GW spent a lot of time talking up the other settings on Necromunda, and showing off concept art of new things (like those wild looking Ash Waste gangs) and what's this quarter's Necro release?
House Goliath 3: The Enmuscleing!
"This time it's slightly different to the last two times!"
Albertorius wrote: I must admit, I kind of have an issue with it being a "codex Goliath", as I don't exactly feel that something like that is what the game needs.
Also, codex churn, given everything, would it mean they will be releasing a new one every six months?
I disagree to a point, this game was pathetically lacklustre in the faction specific fluff department and this book goes a way to fix that, it also adds several important thematic elements to the Goliath gangs such as the Vatborn, Natborn and Unborn and other things, I also like how the new gang creation is done.
If the other "house" books are like this I will buy them all for the fluff and theme alone.
As for codex churn, yep I feel your pain on that I would prefer it to be a by monthly thing or just release them monthly
I do get the distaste for what, the third churn of basic gang rules.
But this one goes much further than before. With three sub-classes, two new fighter types, and House specific boons for hired guns, this is the most fleshed out we’ve ever seen a gang.
Whilst it’s impossible to say whether the sub-classes are fair and balanced at the moment (we need something to compare it to), they at least promise greater variety in a campaign where multiple players are playing House Goliath.
I also remain in two minds whether or not they should’ve bothered with Gangs of the Underhive. See, that was essentially a compilation and tidy up of the Gang War volumes. But, it also means all the rules needed to get your first campaign underway are in just two books. Rule Book and Gotu.
On the other? Once all six House Of books are out, will I ever use GotU ever again? Probably not, no.
As I’ve harped on about ever since we found how they were handling the release schedule, it all boils down to whether there’s enough content. For my money, that’s a yes for House of Chains. Because it’s more than just a Goliath book. I can only hope the subsequent volumes continue that.
As for further settings and scenarios? Hopefully we’ll see those once House of is a complete run.
Albertorius wrote: I must admit, I kind of have an issue with it being a "codex Goliath", as I don't exactly feel that something like that is what the game needs.
Also, codex churn, given everything, would it mean they will be releasing a new one every six months?
Considering it’s gonna take 18 months just to get the 6 gang books out, I would guess no to every 6 months.
Baxx wrote: House of Chains includes a lot of changes to the core rules. Everyone who wants to play N20 would need these rules updates, if not the book itself.
The rules of the game haven't changed there is no N20, it's still N19. Just now you have a different way to build a Goliath gang. Seems all the gangs will evolve out of Hives of the Underhive--if you want. No one can make you play with these Codexes or HotU, it's your group's choice. Heck you could allow building of gangs using both since each have trade-offs. You just shouldn't be able to cherry pick from either.
The rules haven't changed? Are we reading the same books?!?
- Leading By Example (now called Gang Hierarchy) is made in the End phase (instead of the start of a round). - Promotions have changed. Juves now promote to Gangers. - Gangers can't have Special Weapons anymore. - Ganger (Specialist) can have Special weapons and multiple equipment sets. - 1 Ganger can be promoted to specialist when founding a gang. - New Muscle skill set available to any gang. - Pets no longer gain XP when rallying after being away from owner. - Pets are automatically included in the owner's Group Activation (clarification). Note that they don't limit the number of other fighters that can join. - Melta bombs no longer have scarce trait (a known bug since it doesn't make sense). - Alliances and Hired Guns are added on top of the crew. - Guild Alliance now explicitly specify the number of fighters (clarification). - Master-crafted is nerfed to once per battle (was once per activation or round before). - Reckless has clarifications for eligible targets (in range, rapid fire, melee, versatile). - Grenade launcher (combi) frag now has Ammo 6+ and lost Single shot.
Additionally, the drastic changes to core gang mechanics for Goliath can easily be extrapolated and expected for all future gangs. It is widely accepted as N20, the sum of these changes are more dramatic than from N18 to N19 (if you acknowledge N19 as different from N18).
As stated, nobody is going to invade your home, burn your books or arrest you for not complying with these changes. At the same time, nobody is playing N17 more. In 1-2 years, nobody will discuss the original rules that now are changed in House of Chains.
Albertorius wrote: I must admit, I kind of have an issue with it being a "codex Goliath", as I don't exactly feel that something like that is what the game needs.
Also, codex churn, given everything, would it mean they will be releasing a new one every six months?
Considering it’s gonna take 18 months just to get the 6 gang books out, I would guess no to every 6 months.
They have shown that they will release a book every quarter in what seems to be the sequence of the gang war books.
Albertorius wrote: I must admit, I kind of have an issue with it being a "codex Goliath", as I don't exactly feel that something like that is what the game needs.
Also, codex churn, given everything, would it mean they will be releasing a new one every six months?
Considering it’s gonna take 18 months just to get the 6 gang books out, I would guess no to every 6 months.
They have shown that they will release a book every quarter in what seems to be the sequence of the gang war books.
The book suggests using standard Goliaths as Juves, that indicates no dedicated minis in the nearest future. Why not give the prospect juve weapons? Everyone thought they were juves when the first images were released. There's no big difference in the visuals.
Bigby has his own rules, and we're still missing the Rogue Doc and Look-out (from Gangs of The Underhive), ‘Narker, Proxy & Propagandist (The Book of Judgement) and Cadaver Merchant, Heretek & Agitator (The Book of Ruin).
That Hired Guns bundle costs $429 USD separately ($335 together), so that’s a significant savings. They also got rid of their old, smaller Hired Guns bundles.
Bigby has his own rules, and we're still missing the Rogue Doc and Look-out (from Gangs of The Underhive), ‘Narker, Proxy & Propagandist (The Book of Judgement) and Cadaver Merchant, Heretek & Agitator (The Book of Ruin).
I think the docs will be in plastic and take the opportunity to get an entire gang.
Erren wrote: That Hired Guns bundle costs $429 USD separately ($335 together), so that’s a significant savings. They also got rid of their old, smaller Hired Guns bundles.
£273 down to £210 in the UK. It's an odd bundle as it includes some of the House-locked ones (Kria the Huntress) but not others (Slate Merdena).
Bigby has his own rules, and we're still missing the Rogue Doc and Look-out (from Gangs of The Underhive), ‘Narker, Proxy & Propagandist (The Book of Judgement) and Cadaver Merchant, Heretek & Agitator (The Book of Ruin).
House of Chains also added some more. Fixers, scabbers, brute handlers and pit trainers are a choice with only the last one restricted to Goliath.
I’m expecting from the upcoming books a release of guild miniatures for each one, plus rules for more hangers on, one noble house, and a different gang like we had the slave ogryns.
House of Chains also added some more. Fixers, scabbers, brute handlers and pit trainers are a choice with only the last one restricted to Goliath.
We already had the fixer and scabber (outlaw) from previous books. You are correct about brute handler being new, however it is universally available to all gangs. Other new ones are Chem dealer (universal) and Pit Trainer (Goliath only).
Bigby has his own rules, and we're still missing the Rogue Doc and Look-out (from Gangs of The Underhive), ‘Narker, Proxy & Propagandist (The Book of Judgement) and Cadaver Merchant, Heretek & Agitator (The Book of Ruin).
House of Chains also added some more. Fixers, scabbers, brute handlers and pit trainers are a choice with only the last one restricted to Goliath.
I’m expecting from the upcoming books a release of guild miniatures for each one, plus rules for more hangers on, one noble house, and a different gang like we had the slave ogryns.
I'm gonna throw this out there now: These secondary gangs are how they're going to deal with some of the stuff from Outlanders insofar as this is mainly how we will end up getting gangs outside of the "core" gangs. So they're going to be thematically linked to the core gangs while not necessarily straight (re)interpretations of the old Outlanders content.
But one gang I'm somewhat expecting a return of is the Redemptionists in the Cawdor book. Maybe? It would fit, but they might go further and expand on the theme. Who knows.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Do we know when the Ogryns go on preorder or even what's in the kit yet?
I’m sure they simply said, “later this year”, which is disappointing. I wish FW and Specialist Games would actually release everything covered in one book, before releasing the next book for once.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Do we know when the Ogryns go on preorder or even what's in the kit yet?
Generally speaking, no later than three months from the date when it is first shown painted. This has been true for specialist games as far as I know.
Main Studio has exceptions, like SoB which were teased for a very long time, and stuff like Old World has a very long time from tease to release.
But in general, once a model is shown, three months seems to be the frame.
Those dark shifty looking Escher's are kind of a surprise. I did think we would be getting some kind of cat-like creatures in plastic. But I still hope they get the khimerix and phyrr cats in resin just like how the goliaths got their berzerker. These look like worthwhile additions to the house. Looking forward to the Van Saar stuff later in the year.
I'm wondering if all those Escher are going to be in one kit. I mean, they aren't that big, and I could imagine a sprue having 1 death girl, 2 archers, and 2 lizkitties.
Not what I had expected for Escher, but not really sure what I was expecting them to get as it stands.
I'm... not a fan. The zombie ladies come from nowhere, and not in a good way, and the... Katniss Everdeen wannabes? Er, I don't quite dislike them, but the bows seem like a baffling choice.
The catrats are alright, better than the resin ones we saw.
They’re hunters, right? Probably special teams sent into the wild sump spaces to find exotic mutants to turn into new products. Don’t want to be accidentally exploding valuable experimental specimens with lasers and self-detonating bullets…
With this sinister aspect of the Escher, what guild do you think will be release with them?
Seeing that the book is finer than the goliath, it seems to be true that not all books will come with a new gang.. A pity because it would fit perfectly a gang of evil doctors
The escher models are smaller and on 25 mm bases. The phyrr cats will likely be on 32 or 40mm. These new cats look smaller. It's definitely one sprue doubled.
Oh, nice. New Death Maidens like that bounty hunter Forgeworld did a while back. Wonder if they're "immune" to dying
New Wylds seem like game hunters rather than fighters. Would be interesting to see if they have skills or weapons geared towards taking out big game. Hopefully, we'll see a Khymerix model in preview later today.
paint jobs on those kittehs is awful but a little chopping and changing with a new paintjerb and I think they will be nice, I like all these new models to be fair especially the weird voodoo woman, a whole gang themed on that would be cool.
Chopstick wrote: The Death maiden is an unholy abomination of ugliness.
Probably the only good thing about them is the spiked stiletto heels, which should've been a weapon, and have pose of them kicking with it.
It may be just the awful paint-jobs. I'll wait to see the actual models.
No paint job can save that model from ugly boobs plate, terrible face, and ugly head. And being stuck to 2 (boring) options just like the Goliath stimmer, because they threw the cats in to fill the sprue.
At least a full auto grenade launcher, although bad, is a million times more interesting than..... Needle pistol with a magazine.
Those cat-things are awful, a real throwback to the worst aspects of 90s creature model design. All three varieties of new Escher suffer from bungled and lazy execution of potentially decent concepts.
I like GW sculptors in their quest to produce dumber and dumber looking high heels (because nothing says 'athletic' like being forced to make tiny, slow steps, am I rite?) actually made ones where the heel part can't even reach the ground, making it in effect hoof fetish boot. Like My Little Pony cosplay. Because first thing you want in your shambling, reanimated zombie is tripping and falling on the face with every other step, eh?
Though yeah, with some conversion it might actually make quite nice eversor.
Albertorius wrote: I'm... not a fan. The zombie ladies come from nowhere, and not in a good way, and the... Katniss Everdeen wannabes? Er, I don't quite dislike them, but the bows seem like a baffling choice.
Why? In the hive, you don't need full gun range 95% of the time, and quiet, poisoned weapon would be actually quite useful, I imagine. Especially seeing you don't need to worry about wind and stuff, compound bows would be almost as accurate as lasers with a little training.
Irbis wrote: Why? In the hive, you don't need full gun range 95% of the time, and quiet, poisoned weapon would be actually quite useful, I imagine. Especially seeing you don't need to worry about wind and stuff, compound bows would be almost as accurate as lasers with a little training.
Wel, for starters bows need to be drawn, which should probably be kind of an issue in many parts of a hive, and in many more parts of the underhive. Plus, you need to be straight, which makes you noticeable (at least with that kind of bigass, compund bow). Plus, bigass ammunition, that will fall down whenever you do... many things.
Also, as you say you don't need full gun range 95% of the time, so... why not blowguns, if poison is the point of the thing?
And honestly, given the kind of life hivers live and the kind of tech they have and the stuff they know, I'm not exactly sure that a bow shouldn't be archeotech ^^.
Albertorius wrote: I'm... not a fan. The zombie ladies come from nowhere, and not in a good way, and the... Katniss Everdeen wannabes? Er, I don't quite dislike them, but the bows seem like a baffling choice.
The catrats are alright, better than the resin ones we saw.
Now, to be fair, the "zombie ladies" have been a thing since they released Kria.
zamerion wrote: With this sinister aspect of the Escher, what guild do you think will be release with them?
Seeing that the book is finer than the goliath, it seems to be true that not all books will come with a new gang.. A pity because it would fit perfectly a gang of evil doctors
I'd expect them to be allied with the Corpse Guild, although that's based entirely on the above-mentioned zombie ladies, because without that I don't see the Escher having much overlap with any of the Guilds. Maybe the Water Guild, in a "the Government is putting Black Helicopters in our water!"-conspiracy kind of way, although that feels like a stretch...
The Phazer wrote: Bit disappointed with these. Not nearly as good as the Goliaths and the cats look ludicrous. Harder to turn into the Juves they should be too.
Those will be extremely easy to turn into Juves. There are multiple single arm bits that point in different directions.
The Forgeborn are a chore because they're gripping two-handed weapons.
Agreed Altruizine, I think the Escher Prospects are much better than the Goliath ones in either use-case; used as they are, they do a better job drawing attention away from the bodies being repeat sculpts, and yeah they'll be an easier job to convert for Juves because they're not hefting big two-handed things & also regular Escher arms will probably fit them fairly easily in terms of size & proportions.
The Death Maidens suffer from their paintjob I think(seriously what is going on with FW's painting, it's been consistently wonky for at least a couple of years now), I expect they'll look a lot better in hand.
That new Enforcer lady though, noice. I don't tend to use named characters much, but she'll probably end up converted into a normal Champion.
Albertorius wrote: Wel, for starters bows need to be drawn, which should probably be kind of an issue in many parts of a hive, and in many more parts of the underhive.
To be fair, there's a lot of places where guns would have an issue in the hive as well. Tight corridors, locations surrounded by explosive materials, dust clouds where a single spark could ignite the air, and so on. But I think the Rule of Cool is what Necromunda lives by - otherwise, the idea of swinging a giant circular saw around on a chain would seem more out of place than bows.
Plus, you need to be straight, which makes you noticeable (at least with that kind of bigass, compund bow). Plus, bigass ammunition, that will fall down whenever you do... many things.
If you are primarily hunting animals, none of that matters. Also, bows have several advantages - they can be cheaply acquired and maintained (unlike guns), ammo can be reused, they are silent, arrow flight paths can lead to shots guns can't pull off and can be used to hide the location of the archer, arrows can pierce Kevlar body armor, you can attach bombs/ropes/tracking devices to arrows or light them on fire, a wound from an arrow would slow down its target more than a bullet wound (and do more damage being removed haphazardly), and so on.
Also, as you say you don't need full gun range 95% of the time, so... why not blowguns, if poison is the point of the thing?
Because blowguns are a sneaky, weasely low tech weapon that would more belong to ratskins or Cawdor than the strong, take no crap Escher aesthetic. They are thematically linked to the Amazon tribes of old. Warrior women, not sneak theives.
Albertorius wrote: Wel, for starters bows need to be drawn, which should probably be kind of an issue in many parts of a hive, and in many more parts of the underhive.
To be fair, there's a lot of places where guns would have an issue in the hive as well. Tight corridors, locations surrounded by explosive materials, dust clouds where a single spark could ignite the air, and so on. But I think the Rule of Cool is what Necromunda lives by - otherwise, the idea of swinging a giant circular saw around on a chain would seem more out of place than bows.
I can understand rule of cool, of course. It's just maybe that I don't think it's that cool. And everywhere guns are an issue, well, bows are the same issue, but bigger.
If you are primarily hunting animals, none of that matters. Also, bows have several advantages - they can be cheaply acquired and maintained (unlike guns), ammo can be reused, they are silent, arrow flight paths can lead to shots guns can't pull off and can be used to hide the location of the archer, arrows can pierce Kevlar body armor, you can attach bombs/ropes/tracking devices to arrows or light them on fire, a wound from an arrow would slow down its target more than a bullet wound (and do more damage being removed haphazardly), and so on.
Nothing you say above even needs bows... and for starters, that kind of bows can't really be made that cheaply, in comparison with a lasgun, which might be the dirtiest of the dirt cheap ^^. Or a hand cannon.
Lasers should be quieter than arrows, and can be on an invisible to human eye wavelenght. If you go solid shot gun, you can change the flightpath altering the propeller amount, both lasers and bullets also pierce kevlar, anything you can shot at with an arrow you can shot at with either a laser or a bullet... other than the arrow dangling around more, I don't see an arrow wound slowing down more than a gunshot or a las shot, etc.
We don't really know if they're supposed to be game hunters, only that they are "Wyld Runners, bold explorers who hunt the Underhive", but of course they won't be doing that in a gang anyway ^^.
All that said, being more similar to a regular gun I could see crossbows being used.
OTOH, this has led me to wonder... how would a hiver even know what a bow is? I mean, it's whatever deep into the future, many ages detached from anything outside of the hive, and they don't really spend too much time lecturing them anyways... it's kind of funny, in a way ^^.
But at the end of the day it's obviously a rule of cool thing, and to some people they will be cool and to some it won't. They are certainly much more appealing than the Goliath prospects just because they'll be easier to tweak.
Because blowguns are a sneaky, weasely low tech weapon that would more belong to ratskins or Cawdor than the strong, take no crap Escher aesthetic. They are thematically linked to the Amazon tribes of old. Warrior women, not sneak theives.
Poisons are also usually sneaky and weasely, and yet, here we are
Also, that lady enforcer and the dog are so, so cool
Albertorius wrote: I'm... not a fan. The zombie ladies come from nowhere, and not in a good way, and the... Katniss Everdeen wannabes? Er, I don't quite dislike them, but the bows seem like a baffling choice.
The catrats are alright, better than the resin ones we saw.
Now, to be fair, the "zombie ladies" have been a thing since they released Kria.
...huh. I obviously didn't pay enough attention (it's... something alright). Still, those minis look horrid IMHO ^^, and from what I see of her, she was "just" supposed to get resurrected? The vibe she gives me is nothing like these new ones.
Albertorius wrote: I'm... not a fan. The zombie ladies come from nowhere, and not in a good way, and the... Katniss Everdeen wannabes? Er, I don't quite dislike them, but the bows seem like a baffling choice.
The catrats are alright, better than the resin ones we saw.
Now, to be fair, the "zombie ladies" have been a thing since they released Kria.
...huh. I obviously didn't pay enough attention (it's... something alright). Still, those minis look horrid IMHO ^^, and from what I see of her, she was "just" supposed to get resurrected? The vibe she gives me is nothing like these new ones.
I think the paint job on the Death Maidens does them a pretty big disservice - dark grey armor on dark grey skin with lots of grey-tinted accessories makes for a very grey model. Some brighter colors like they did on Kria might help.
Oh dear, the only good thing about revisiting the Gangs yet again was that I looked forward to the new models, but these really are not very good at all. Had missed Kria's background before so it will take some time to get used to this zombie Escher concept, but unlike Kria these models have terrible poses; perhaps they may be somewhat useful as a basis for normal champions with other arms and heads.. but what a waste of sprue space.
Not-juves look alright, bows feel out of place in the warband however, and the metal arrow flights are just silly. Nice bits, just not what I'd have expected or wanted for Escher.
Cats look terrible. Can only see some use for them as weird mutated Skaven perhaps?
Copper with robodog is terrif though! Hadn't expected a new Enforcer model of all things to be the best upcoming model, but I definitely want one despite having absolutely no use of it.
The Death Maidens look like there COULD be a nice model, under an absolutely horrible paint job. Keep them bright coloured but with very pale skin - not actually flippin' grey - and they could be very nice.
And the banged about faceplate covering the top half of the face... not a fan. Paint it gold. Make it look like it's really heavily engraved. That's the bling it needs.
Thargrim wrote: The escher models are smaller and on 25 mm bases. The phyrr cats will likely be on 32 or 40mm. These new cats look smaller. It's definitely one sprue doubled.
There is a new base size: 28.5mm, so figuring out a base size just by looking at it in a pic is going to be tough.
Grot 6 wrote: Good looking figures, so I guess the Codex treatment is going to be a thing, now....
The Bows are a bit of a streak, but considering that these girls are close combat stealth, I can see how the bow would be a good fit for them.
Better way to get rid of your dead then eating them, I guess...
Happy to report the House of Chains book was far more than just a Codex. Yes it goes into Codex type depth about the origins and that of House Goliath, but also came with a decent amount of newly new for others.
I’ve managed to stay away from Necromunda because of all the rules issues I’ve heard and the cost, but a full line of Arbites (or whatever new GW calls them) May break me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Thanks to the other thread it seems no model/no rule has come to Newcromunda.
That's just fething wonderful.
What are you talking about?
The new Goliath models can take equipment that isn't in the box.
There are no Juve models and Juves are in the book.
There are allied characters with no models (yet) in the book.
I mean, you regularly give off the vibe of a guy whose entire relationship to these games is mediated through News and Rumours forums, and doesn't actually play any of them or read any rules once they're released in their final form, so that may be the case here... but I'm still really curious what, specifically, you're talking about.
Altruizine wrote: The new Goliath models can take equipment that isn't in the box.
No they can't. And by "box" I assume you also mean the two FW weapon sets, right?
Altruizine wrote: I mean, you regularly give off the vibe of a guy whose entire relationship to these games is mediated through News and Rumours forums, and doesn't actually play any of them or read any rules once they're released in their final form, so that may be the case here...
I was playing 40K a fortnight ago, so, no.
Altruizine wrote: ... but I'm still really curious what, specifically, you're talking about.
You can get all sorts of crazies! This is Necromunda Borderland edition, 87 bazillion guns!!! You could have thunder hammer, meltapistol, kroot rifle, storm bolter, cursed chaos bolter, power fist, razor gun, sling gun, grav gun, hellspear, neural flayer, seismic cannon and shard grenades.
Altruizine wrote: The new Goliath models can take equipment that isn't in the box.
No they can't. And by "box" I assume you also mean the two FW weapon sets, right?
So, the Goliath Stimmer can take the twinned GLs or the axes that come in this box, or it can take a stub gun, a fighting knife, a two-handed axe, and/or a single- or paired spud-jacker(s), and the Forge-born can take a fighting knife and a stub gun, as well as the storm-welder or rocksaw that they come with.
You're just flat wrong in saying they can't take weapons that weren't in the box.
So, the Goliath Stimmer can take the twinned GLs or the axes that come in this box, or it can take a stub gun, a fighting knife, a two-handed axe, and/or a single- or paired spud-jacker(s), and the Forge-born can take a fighting knife and a stub gun, as well as the storm-welder or rocksaw that they come with.
You're just flat wrong in saying they can't take weapons that weren't in the box.
Man id love it if he were right, all those weapon options actually available, targetting scopes for all the guns, different models for each gang to show carapace armour and such. What a time that would be. Of course he is wrong and just in a sulk, otherwise my Ganger could take the chainsword that is in the FW weapon pack, but he cant unless i make him a champion. This is such a good book!
Love the escher models, people will make some great conversions with them. I had a feeling bows might come for them, they look cool and as sensible (not sensible) as majority of other weapon options, whips? yeah good luck using those in confined tangled mess of the underhive.
regarding weapon packs? Im hoping we will get more, specifically to address some of the gaps listed above (and the combi bolter-grenade launcher!).
stato wrote: regarding weapon packs? Im hoping we will get more, specifically to address some of the gaps listed above (and the combi bolter-grenade launcher!).
Well, consider the below photo. None of the weapons match up to what appears with the Death Maidens or the Wyld Girls. I reckon there's a plastic weapon pack or some sort of extension pack in the works:
stato wrote: regarding weapon packs? Im hoping we will get more, specifically to address some of the gaps listed above (and the combi bolter-grenade launcher!).
Well, consider the below photo. None of the weapons match up to what appears with the Death Maidens or the Wyld Girls. I reckon there's a plastic weapon pack or some sort of extension pack in the works:
Spoiler:
Huh?
That model looks like a resin Forgeworld offering. The body doesn't seem to match up to any from the plastic Escher kit, so I don't know why you'd think the weapons are part of an extension pack.
Altruizine wrote: That model looks like a resin Forgeworld offering. The body doesn't seem to match up to any from the plastic Escher kit, so I don't know why you'd think the weapons are part of an extension pack.
Just a guess from my part. Taken from this line in the last article:
On top of that, Escher Champions, or Matriarchs as they call ’em, seem to have acquired a new cache of weapons. We’ve arrested some carrying combi-pistols, sawn-off shotguns, power hammers and shock whips.
So either a new resin expansion pack or, because of different body and weapons, a Champions/Juve pack with weapons.
Chopstick wrote: Make no sense Escher got plastic weapon, but Goliath don't. Orgryn gang isn't count as upgrade for them.
They're probably resin, along side weapon pack for the new Goliath models. with weapon like Brute cleaver, missile launcher, multi melta...
I am confident new weapons coming for Goliath. This article was the first (or second?) monthly update. The guy who writes it was on the GW stream last week (Aeronautic stream, but he does all these new articles) saying how he had been hunting round trying to get new stuff approved to show people for each article, so I can imagine the Eschers options were chosen/teased as they tied in with the release from GAMA. Looking forward to what we seen next month in this series of articles.
Altruizine wrote: That model looks like a resin Forgeworld offering. The body doesn't seem to match up to any from the plastic Escher kit, so I don't know why you'd think the weapons are part of an extension pack.
Just a guess from my part. Taken from this line in the last article:
On top of that, Escher Champions, or Matriarchs as they call ’em, seem to have acquired a new cache of weapons. We’ve arrested some carrying combi-pistols, sawn-off shotguns, power hammers and shock whips.
So either a new resin expansion pack or, because of different body and weapons, a Champions/Juve pack with weapons.
The model in the picture is armed with a combi-pistol and a shock whip. That's two of the four weapons mentioned. It kind of just sounds like a resin model with four arms included for some very minor customization.
seeing in yaktribe:
Psycho outlaw Mad Donna is back!
No one knows murder like Mad Donna. Where she goes, death follows – she is a force of nature, leaving devastated settlements and shell casings in her wake. But even Necromunda has its limits for senseless, unsanctioned violence. Scrutinator Primus Servalen, armed with the personal seal of Lord Helmawr – to which no request can be denied and no door barred – is dispatched to bring the misbegotten scion of House Ulanti to justice, but first she has to track her down… and how do you find one murderer in amongst the bloodshed of the Underhive?
Also in facebook people is speaking about another possible plastic kit for champions and leaders, as this miniature is brand new, and the article speaks about new weapons ,it would be weird for FW to release new bodies too ...
This afternoon there is a twitch session about necromunda, maybe they speak something about this questions..
If all the bases in the box are the same, I'm pretty sure they'll be 25. The shape of the bases under the lizard-cats are definitely the same as the 25mm Necromunda bases we already have.
Also, while 28mm plain bases are in production, no-one has seen a 28mm Necromunda base which would, naturally, be another sprue which means it may be a choice of an intermediate base (firmly in the nice to have category) or the Cawdor getting their plastic brutes. Or something. I dunno how the accounting works for the bases.
All three types of models seem to be on the usual 25mm bases, or at least it very much appears that way given the sculpted Zone Mortalis patterns I can make out.
Don't think they'd make new 28mm bases with the exact same patterns (and I hope they won't introduce the 28mm bases to Necromunda at all actually).
The figures come with both, the adeptus bases come in batches. 25, 28, 40, 60 in the base upgrades kits.
GW doesn't sell any sculpted 28mm bases at the moment. If with the "Adeptus" bases you mean the Sector Mechanicus bases, those come in 32, 40 and 60mm, while Necromunda bases come in 25, 32 and 40mm.
Of course, they may have created new sculpted 28mm bases, but I've seen no indication that's the case so far.
The figures come with both, the adeptus bases come in batches. 25, 28, 40, 60 in the base upgrades kits.
GW doesn't sell any sculpted 28mm bases at the moment. If with the "Adeptus" bases you mean the Sector Mechanicus bases, those come in 32, 40 and 60mm, while Necromunda bases come in 25, 32 and 40mm.
Of course, they may have created new sculpted 28mm bases, but I've seen no indication that's the case so far.
Thanks for catching that. Yes, your correct, the misnomer was on me.
32 for the new bases, They sell 25mm in the sculpted ones. I picked up a gak load of them for this very reason.
I don't have any Newcromunda rules but the ones in the big starter set from...2017? I have the OG rule and background books still, but not the expansion or article rules.
With the Repentia squad packing a massive amount of Eviscerators (ok, and a gang on the internet) I'm toying with the idea of a gang of Redemptionists, but what rules should I use for that? Not that I'll ever get to play.
Redemptionists don’t have specific N19 rules yet, unless someone made a fan set.
Personally, I’d use the bounty hunter gang rules as a base since it allows for extremely flexible equipment and you can simulate being a pan-global cult by having all sorts of Great House backgrounds and gear. Plus you can use the capture rules to simulate “redeeming” sinners and thereby obtaining further support from the gang’s shadowy backers for proof of their good works etc.
With a cooperative Arbitrator I’m sure you could also put together a set of Alliance rules for other gangs to get backing from the Red Redemption itself, though it should technically be a criminal one.
That's kind of weird, doesn't GW plan releases years in advance?
Or is it because this was FW?
I suspect that it wasn't supposed to get so popular. Remember Black Industries? They couldn't keep stock on shelves, but GW's assumption that it would fail lead to the sale to FFG despite the fact it was wildly successful.
They can be as reckless and careless as they wish for all their numerous games they have these days for all I care. There are so many new boxed games, I don't know their names and don't care either. That's not Necromunda, and it hurts they treated it like anything else. Rushed, zero play-testing, conflicting directives and developing too many games at the same time.
That's kind of weird, doesn't GW plan releases years in advance?
Or is it because this was FW?
I suspect that it wasn't supposed to get so popular. Remember Black Industries? They couldn't keep stock on shelves, but GW's assumption that it would fail lead to the sale to FFG despite the fact it was wildly successful.
GW top-bods massively under-estimated how popular Specialist Games would be - Blood Bowl was meant to be a splash release with possible additional FW teams later, AT was going to all-resin, etc. Their sales forced a rapid (in GW terms) change of direction. They've just thrown AI out of the door and are trying to grow their team so they can actually try to do a good job of BFG.
James: So initially there was a directive. This was another one of those things that was quite frustrating. We had about three or four directives which were all quite contradictory. One voice saying “This game needs to feel like old-school Rogue Trader. Bring back Rogue Trader characteristics and go for the old-school vibe and that sort of thing.” Which is why Necromunda characters have got Intelligence, Willpower, Cool, and Leadership, which are terrible stats because they’re all kind of the same thing. [Laughs] There’s no clear delineation between them. That was an edict, and had to be that.
I'll admit that the three rogue trader stats did get me on the nostalgia angle. It never did occur to me before today that the three extra stats are kind of the same thing. James did a good job differentiating them I guess.
I've been using n17 as a rogue trader type game (well, inquisimunda) and it's been working so I'm glad it has those elements even if they were the result of an outside directive to force them in.
Lupe: So when did the decision happen to split necromunda into the board game with the 2D offering and the 3D through the expansion?
James: So initially there was a directive. This was another one of those things that was quite frustrating. We had about three or four directives which were all quite contradictory. One voice saying “This game needs to feel like old-school Rogue Trader. Bring back Rogue Trader characteristics and go for the old-school vibe and that sort of thing.” Which is why Necromunda characters have got Intelligence, Willpower, Cool, and Leadership, which are terrible stats because they’re all kind of the same thing. [Laughs] There’s no clear delineation between them. That was an edict, and had to be that.
Similarly, another voice was saying that the game needed to fit into a box and be sold as a box game because the trade sales team wanted to have a product they could sell on the shelves as a standalone box game. Okay, but that’s not really Necromunda though is it? Oh, but you also need to do separate rules for doing 3D combat. Okay that’s more like Necromunda, but that feels like a different version of the same thing.
So I initially wrote the rulebook, which treasted the core box as a self-contained board game. There’s a set of line of sight rules that are abstractions, because you can’t use true line of sight on a 2D board, because walls get in the way. And you can’t expect players to just pretend the wall is there. In an ideal world the rules for 2D walls would say “just pretend the walls are there and use true line of sight” but that’s never quite gonna work, so instead there’s a set of rules about the way line of sight works.
Then I wrote the Gang War supplement, which was this big 128 page thing, which had the 3D rules, the campaign rules, and the 6 gangs. The “proper Necromunda experience”, if you will. The problem was that because of the tight deadlines, the book had already been ordered with the printers, and they’d used Death Zone or something as a guide, so basically they could only do a 60-odd page book. And so it got split into Gang War 1 and Gang War 2. The problem is that a lot of Gang War 1 is administrative stuff that should’ve been in the rule book anyway, i.e. the rules for 3D games and the full gang lists. So, Gang War 1 as it went onto the shelf, to my mind, is not a very good value book, because it’s all stuff that should’ve been in the core book anyway.
Oof. That's gotta smart for the people who were defending the initial release model in 2017.
Oh wait! they're not really the same thing. RT was made during the 80s when Call of Cthulhu and Runequest were popular RPGs in the UK. they are just intelligence, power, charisma and sanity from those chaosium rpgs given new names
It actually sounds like the designers managed to lever some kind of a hack into the rules of that original boxed "Necromunda" that could be exploited and turned into something that much more resembles what you might expect from a game bearing that name. It never needed to be a carbon copy of the original (nor should it have been), but what we're getting at this stage represents an aesthetic and spiritual successor to the Necromunda of the 90s.
That's kind of genius (though entirely down to only two factors: the designers and the high sales figures).
On reflection, it's infuriating to see that the "new management" at GW still lacked faith in boxed games like Blood Bowl and Necromunda at that point, but seeing the gang books and a nearly complete roster of original teams for Blood Bowl in 2020, it's a better place than we could have imagined ourselves back in 2016.
James: Which is why Necromunda characters have got Intelligence, Willpower, Cool, and Leadership, which are terrible stats because they’re all kind of the same thing. [Laughs] There’s no clear delineation between them. That was an edict, and had to be that.
It never did occur to me before today that the three extra stats are kind of the same thing.
It didn't occur to you before today because it's not true. Rogue Trader was an RPG masquerading as a skirmish game. Old school Warhammer is basically a D&D character listed horizontally. Those stats maybe terrible for a skirmish game like Necromunda, but they are hardly the same thing.
Wonder how the pandemic will affect the Necro roll out...
I'd say pretty much every release from every company past the end of this month is now in doubt to one degree or another.
Unlike some GW probably have enough stuff in the pipeline they can keep up some semblance of a release schedule over the next year or so, even if that means putting stuff out in white boxes for want of Chinese-printed packaging, but it probably won't be what they and we were expecting. Books especially could be hit hard. Which only reinforces in my mind the idea that GW are properly wonko for *still* not bringing their printing in-house like they did with plastics - all the shortages and limited runs and "we're not going to fill the remaining demand after launch day because we don't estimate that it's more than the minimum order size we'd have to make, and we hate holding stock" nonsense was already sufficient to justify a change in approach, but if the global supply chain and publishing especially does end up hard hit by the virus it should hopefully drive home to the management bods that having your manufacturing in-house isn't much use if your whole release schedule can still be at the mercy of events because all your packaging and rules product has to come on the slow boat from China.
I don't know, maybe don't write 2 books with 2 different list building for the gang? Lots of deflecting the blame back to GW, and "directive", I reckon the "nostalgia" voice was Andy Hoare.
Gang Wars is the after thought while Underhive is a game with no thought for future expansion whatsoever.
I'll admit that the three rogue trader stats did get me on the nostalgia angle. It never did occur to me before today that the three extra stats are kind of the same thing. James did a good job differentiating them I guess.
The main 'mental' stat any gang or fighter needs is Cool. The others are situational, like willpower, to borderline useless like leadership.
If only they took full advantage. GW's response to the issues assembled on yaktribe has been very lackluster. The threads there are so comprehensive. The first post of the house of chains thread lists 22 errors and contradictions with other publications and other parts of the same book. Previous books had similar threads. Then when they get sent to GW they are only partially addressed and often the FAQ doesn't show any understanding of the actual error or gets the correction wrong. Some are not included in the FAQ at all but are changes put in the next book that comes out. But not with any sort of note, it just contradicts the earlier book and says nothing about it being a fix.
If any of this stuff had been used once by someone who had to use the text rather than play the way they know it should work because they wrote it or the guy who wrote it just tells them, then it would have been caught.
Yaktribe and the Necromunda Comprehensive Rulebook PDF hack/pirate document are the only reasons I'm still playing and buying necromunda stuff.
More excuses there Kan. Gotta protect poor defenceless GW! White Knight to the end...
Chamberlain wrote: GW's response to the issues assembled on yaktribe has been very lackluster. The threads there are so comprehensive. The first post of the house of chains thread lists 22 errors and contradictions with other publications and other parts of the same book. Previous books had similar threads. Then when they get sent to GW they are only partially addressed and often the FAQ doesn't show any understanding of the actual error or gets the correction wrong. Some are not included in the FAQ at all but are changes put in the next book that comes out. But not with any sort of note, it just contradicts the earlier book and says nothing about it being a fix.
Oh I know. Baxx gathered together a long list of issues fpr me and I sent them directly to Andy Hoare. I'm not so certain that the next FAQ covered them, much as you said.
When you have people complaining that "Thing is different on pages Y and Z but then page X has it the same as page Y...WHAT IS IT SUPPOSED TO BE?!?!", you don't really get to call what I posted as "white knighting".
When you have a slew of so-called "issues" that amount to "THING DOESN'T WORK AS WRITTEN, SO IT'S USELESS!"...when it's clear from the intent as to how it's supposed to work? You don't get to call what I posted as "white knighting".
Not when all you do is come into these threads and complain or act like the whole frigging system is a failure because you can't take a few moments to discuss a thing with your opponent.
Kanluwen wrote: To be fair, some of the things that some people consider to be "issues" are normally fixed by "not being a tool" or "reading".
Spoiler:
points costs being different in 2 or 3 different places rules mentioning fighters taking tests that fighters never take ammo values contradicting the same weapon elsewhere in the book and in previous books typos like having a result of 4 when it should be 4+ weapon stats like AP contradicting the same weapon elsewhere grenades being incorrectly given a rapid fire value different rarity levels for the same item a character specializing in shooting in close combat missing the rules that let him do so monsters getting muscle skills but no d3 table provided for them to roll on and many more... in every book...
You're simply wrong.
Had a single person playtested this stuff who didn't know how it was "supposed to work" it would have been caught. If you actually tried to give a Sumpkroc a random muscle skill that would let you know a chart was missing. But I guess no one ever actually did that. When you go to shoot with a weapon and your opponents says: hey, that gun has a range of 18" not 24". Well, which is it? Any actual play of this stuff would have caught it and none of it is people not reading or being tools.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: When you have people complaining that "Thing is different on pages Y and Z but then page X has it the same as page Y...WHAT IS IT SUPPOSED TO BE?!?!", you don't really get to call what I posted as "white knighting".
When you have a slew of so-called "issues" that amount to "THING DOESN'T WORK AS WRITTEN, SO IT'S USELESS!"...when it's clear from the intent as to how it's supposed to work? You don't get to call what I posted as "white knighting".
Not when all you do is come into these threads and complain or act like the whole frigging system is a failure because you can't take a few moments to discuss a thing with your opponent.
Contradictory numbers will not always have a third instance to guide you to the right one. Most don't.
Also, just think about what you are saying, that you have to decipher the game and search for other possible mentions of numbers and hope they line up with one of the previous two different ones you already found. That you as the player, need to fix it with your opponent in order to play it.
You're sort of making the case against yourself here.
Sure, because people discussing rules inconsistencies on a forum must perforce be doing the exact same thing in the meatspace instead of playing.
Don't you think possible for someone to be able to criticize stuff and still be able to play like a regular human being? Are those two mutually exclusive?
See, I'm a professional RPG translator, been for the last 15 years. And stuff happens, every time. We manage to fix some stuff from the original because we publish afterwards, but not everything, and humans being humans, we also make mistakes. Sometime it's my fault, sometimes it's a layout error, whatever. Whenever it happens we fix any error, thank whoever detected it, and move on. And we don't repeat the same mistake again, even though we might make new ones.
And all of the ones people talk about above? Those are errors. Not "issues" to be "fixed". Errors, to be fixed, improved on, and not be repeated. And they have been consistently repeated, over and over again.
So yeah, I might be more critical due to my job, but that's because I know how I work, and what I do to fix stuff.
So attack the person and ignore what they are saying?
Lame.
I can tell you exactly what it is like when we play Necromunda and come upon these contradictions because it has happened a lot. We would take a minute and look up the weapon. We'd see they contradict. The person gets the best version. Always side with more awesome. Revisit it after the game.
Fortunately now we have the ncr.pdf and yaktribe people who have spotted these issues and figured it out. So when we look up the weapon or add it to our gangs, it's already has a note about the contradiction and perhaps a comment about why one number is more appropriate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Albertorius wrote: See, I'm a professional RPG translator, been for the last 15 years. And stuff happens, every time. We manage to fix some stuff from the original because we publish afterwards, but not everything, and humans being humans, we also make mistakes. Sometime it's my fault, sometimes it's a layout error, whatever. Whenever it happens we fix any error, thank whoever detected it, and move on. And we don't repeat the same mistake again, even though we might make new ones.
And all of the ones people talk about above? Those are errors. Not "issues" to be "fixed". Errors, to be fixed, improved on, and not be repeated. And they have been consistently repeated, over and over again.
Forgeworld's game designers are probably as rushed and overworked as James describes them as being in 2017. It's the best explanation of why their work product has so many more errors than the typical 40k or AoS book. They have less resources, more work and less time. So they produce 20-40 errors per book while the typical battletome or codex has 0-5.
If only they took full advantage. GW's response to the issues assembled on yaktribe has been very lackluster.
Yes! I would like to add, the latest book "House of Chains" has considerably better quality than anything from 2019. It includes some updates and clarifications which would help a lot of new players out. I've seen many discussions on the topic of versatile, blaze and reckless. These have improved wording now! There are some nice updates to balance too, like master-crafted weapons are once per battle instead of once per round. Fighters starting without armour removes a long and cumbersome journey with countless discussions.
You are of course still right, there are some silly copy-paste errors, incorrect costs, conflicting weaopn profiles, but I'd argue less critical mistakes now than before.
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Kanluwen wrote: When you have people complaining that "Thing is different on pages Y and Z but then page X has it the same as page Y...WHAT IS IT SUPPOSED TO BE?!?!", you don't really get to call what I posted as "white knighting".
When you have a slew of so-called "issues" that amount to "THING DOESN'T WORK AS WRITTEN, SO IT'S USELESS!"...when it's clear from the intent as to how it's supposed to work? You don't get to call what I posted as "white knighting".
Not when all you do is come into these threads and complain or act like the whole frigging system is a failure because you can't take a few moments to discuss a thing with your opponent.
I think taking a few moments to discuss a thing with opponents is an unfair description of the reality. I've spent a lot of time discussion rules, scenarios, xp, weapons, wyrd powers, gang composition, skills, weapon traits and everything else. Then I documented a lot of it because I wanted consistent clear rules for the friends I play with. I don't see how the intent is clear. I'd like a more detailed discussion about what clear intent is, but it should be somewhere else. I've heard others say the same thing, but when the details unravel, it's not such a clear case afterwards.
If only they took full advantage. GW's response to the issues assembled on yaktribe has been very lackluster.
Yes! I would like to add, the latest book "House of Chains" has considerably better quality than anything from 2019. It includes some updates and clarifications which would help a lot of new players out. I've seen many discussions on the topic of versatile, blaze and reckless. These have improved wording now! There are some nice updates to balance too, like master-crafted weapons are once per battle instead of once per round. Fighters starting without armour removes a long and cumbersome journey with countless discussions.
You are of course still right, there are some silly copy-paste errors, incorrect costs, conflicting weaopn profiles, but I'd argue less critical mistakes now than before.
I'm actually a big fan of the entire recent batch of books. The rulebook, the gangs book, the books of x, all of it. House of Chains is really good. I hope House of Blades continues the trend.
Fortunately yaktribe peeps are quite fast at spotting and discussing issues and many times a book will come out and errors will be spotted and discussed before my next monthly gaming day. When the book of judgement came out yaktribe managed to get it all spotted even before I finished painting my enforcers.
Baxx wrote: Yes! I would like to add, the latest book "House of Chains" has considerably better quality than anything from 2019. It includes some updates and clarifications which would help a lot of new players out. I've seen many discussions on the topic of versatile, blaze and reckless. These have improved wording now! There are some nice updates to balance too, like master-crafted weapons are once per battle instead of once per round. Fighters starting without armour removes a long and cumbersome journey with countless discussions.
You know, even though I don't agree with Necromunda going the codex direction, I find this quite heartening.
It sounds like some of the issues come from the same core problem we observed with the Munitorum Field Manual - no central repository that information can be pulled from when writing a new book.
For example, it would not be difficult to have a weapons stats spreadsheet on a shared drive with one tab for weapons which are used by all gangs, and then a tab per gang for their unique stuff. If you're reproducing an existing weapon, you copy the details from the central file; if you're creating a new weapon, its final profile gets added to the file for reference.
Dysartes wrote: It sounds like some of the issues come from the same core problem we observed with the Munitorum Field Manual - no central repository that information can be pulled from when writing a new book.
It's called a Setting Bible and I've been advocating GW create one for years.
Dysartes wrote: It sounds like some of the issues come from the same core problem we observed with the Munitorum Field Manual - no central repository that information can be pulled from when writing a new book.
It's called a Setting Bible and I've been advocating GW create one for years.
They did have one, at least last time I worked on a GW licensed product, along with a glossary of terms.
Dysartes wrote: It sounds like some of the issues come from the same core problem we observed with the Munitorum Field Manual - no central repository that information can be pulled from when writing a new book.
It's called a Setting Bible and I've been advocating GW create one for years.
They did have one, at least last time I worked on a GW licensed product, along with a glossary of terms.
It might be the case that they're working so flat-out to provide us with items we constantly complain they don't make fast enough that they don't have adequate time to play-test and proof-read, so the presence of the Setting Bible makes little to no difference.
Dysartes wrote: It sounds like some of the issues come from the same core problem we observed with the Munitorum Field Manual - no central repository that information can be pulled from when writing a new book.
It's called a Setting Bible and I've been advocating GW create one for years.
They did have one, at least last time I worked on a GW licensed product, along with a glossary of terms.
In this case BaronIveagh is incorrect, the problem isn't actually a Setting Bible, but a master rules document. Similar, but distinct- a setting bible is more fluff focused.
The snippet from the author is interesting, but even if management did mandate a lot of nonsense, it was on his head not to leave so many errors and inconsistencies across books he conceptualized as a single document (or two documents, basic rules for the box set, and 128 pages of real rules for gang war). There's literally no reason for gun stats to change from book to book with a single primary author.
The directive issues he describes- the stats thing, the box game, aren't any kind of excuse for the basic text and editing errors that infest basically 3 years worth of books. That they didn't need that many supplements isn't his fault (and can be blamed on management), but the content certainly is- just based on "So I initially wrote the rulebook," and "Then I wrote the Gang War supplement." Taking authorship of the first three rulebooks that way makes the rules problems his responsibility
What I think is telling is that he mentions Gang War 1&2 being written as a single book that had to be done as the 2 smaller book because a smaller format book is what they had committed too and it doesn’t seem like there was time to change that... I think that speaks to the relatively short amount of time he had... it’s obvious GW are rushing books out and writing and editing suffer but this gives us a sense of just what that deadline looks like from their writers perspective. The writer clearly has a lot of regrets about how it turned out but clearly tried to do his best. I think when we have a company that keeps authors names off their works and rushes them, the company has wrestled responsibility from the author. There isn’t really much if any editing and revisions going on; their tempo really makes it seem like the majority of these books are written in a single draft with only the rules getting more than one pass, to revise the rules, but not necessarily to revise the writing.
Something I see people say a lot here is that Necromunda wasn't playtested. I have no idea if thats true or not. But one reason (not the only reason) for this statement that people here post over and over is that the rule text is full of inconsistencies and mistakes. Which is true. But...
I don't think many people here realize this has nothing to do with playtesting? i guess this isn't common knowledge, but most game's final rules text is written AFTER the playtest phase is completed.
So errors in the rules text wouldn't be found during the playtest phase. Instead, playtesters work from a raw rules document, often filled with its own inconsistencies. Feedback from playtesters is gathered and applied by writers when creating the final rules text.
Very, very often writers make mistakes and create unforeseen issues when writing the final text. Proofreading is supposed to catch those problems. Sometime sit does, and the writers can go back and revise the text. Sometimes it doesn't. This is because sometimes the proofreaders aren't actually familiar with the game, and more focused on the readability of the text. But often the writers themselves or someone else involved with the design of the game does a proof reading pass specifically to look for errors, and even then errors still get through. In fact, if you've ever worked on a game you now how easy it is for ridiculous errors to get through even when you thought you did an excellent job proofing.
Necromunda is full of errors and weird problems, and I have no idea how much playtesting was done, if any. However, rules text errors does not indicate a lack of play testing. those are two separate things.
* You might ask "Why don't they do more playtesting AFTER the rules text is written?" The answer to that is more playtesting leads to writing and revising more rules text. Thats not what any company wants. They want to get the game that they think works out the door as soon as possible, The proofreading phase is supposed to catch all of those issues.
I suspect that Specialist Games just doesn't have the time or staff to do thorough proofreading. I'm sure they do a pass or two, but thats clearly not enough, or whoever they have doing it is just not good at it.
jake wrote: I don't think many people here realize this has nothing to do with playtesting? i guess this isn't common knowledge, but most game's final rules text is written AFTER the playtest phase is completed.
Hi! As someone who's been involved at all ends of this process, I don't think that's really true.
I mean, from a tautological perspective, yes, final text is of course written after play-testing is done because you have to implement the changes from the play-testing. However you appear to be implying that most of the work is done after play-testing, which just isn't true in my experience.
jake wrote: I don't think many people here realize this has nothing to do with playtesting? i guess this isn't common knowledge, but most game's final rules text is written AFTER the playtest phase is completed.
Hi! As someone who's been involved at all ends of this process, I don't think that's really true.
I mean, from a tautological perspective, yes, final text is of course written after play-testing is done because you have to implement the changes from the play-testing. However you appear to be implying that most of the work is done after play-testing, which just isn't true in my experience.
We have different experiences then (which is valid). I've never worked on a Specialist games project, so of course I don't know how they do it, But what I've described has been very common for other game companies that I've worked with over the last 15+ years.
Yeah, my experience is less useful in that regard, as when I receive the stuff is already finalised and most of the time has been released in the original language.
Dysartes wrote: It sounds like some of the issues come from the same core problem we observed with the Munitorum Field Manual - no central repository that information can be pulled from when writing a new book.
It's called a Setting Bible and I've been advocating GW create one for years.
They did have one, at least last time I worked on a GW licensed product, along with a glossary of terms.
In this case BaronIveagh is incorrect, the problem isn't actually a Setting Bible, but a master rules document. Similar, but distinct- a setting bible is more fluff focused.
Yeah, when I posted I was thinking more of a rules reference than a background bible.
Dysartes wrote: It sounds like some of the issues come from the same core problem we observed with the Munitorum Field Manual - no central repository that information can be pulled from when writing a new book.
It's called a Setting Bible and I've been advocating GW create one for years.
Have there been major fluff contradictions? I thought it was more rules issues.
Have there been major fluff contradictions? I thought it was more rules issues.
Not sure about Necromunda, but with BFG? Oh, Yes. The one that I always immediately think of is the Plague of Unbelief and Battlefleet Bakka's Gareox Incident. If the lore for Bakka is right, then the Big Gun Lobby would have been burned by the Inquisition and the New School would have been the winners.
And the Jovian class... just... the Jovian Class.. That ships backstory is twistier than Post-Crisis Powergirl.
jake wrote: I don't think many people here realize this has nothing to do with playtesting? i guess this isn't common knowledge, but most game's final rules text is written AFTER the playtest phase is completed.
Hi! As someone who's been involved at all ends of this process, I don't think that's really true.
I mean, from a tautological perspective, yes, final text is of course written after play-testing is done because you have to implement the changes from the play-testing. However you appear to be implying that most of the work is done after play-testing, which just isn't true in my experience.
I've only done a bit of RPG playtesting and the designers were very concerned that the rules actually communicated how to play. So if someone who didn't know how the game was "supposed" to work, they could still play it from the rules as written. We definitely came across the kinds of errors that have plagued the necromunda line all the time. This leads me to believe all the playtesting is done by people who know how it is supposed to work and thus aren't seeing them. Like when writers are their own editors and just can't see what they actually wrote.
Unless a game is playtested by people who only have the text to work from, your game is not playtested. The interview confirms this was the case with the launch of Necromunda. It barely got tested and just when the author and his buddies could get to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do like though how things have improved. If the trend continues the remainder of the House of X books should have less issues than the Book of X books did and way less than the first batch of Gang War books.
I just hope they don’t screw with the Escher background and motivations too much. What they did with the Goliaths is interesting and makes them a genuine mirror of the Escher so I will be extremely disappointed if House of Blades either completely ignores that connection¹ or, worse, descends into caricature.
¹ unfortunately this seems entirely possible since they didn’t update the ‘zerker unit entry background and it seems out of place against the new Goliath origin story.
Mr_Rose wrote: I just hope they don’t screw with the Escher background and motivations too much. What they did with the Goliaths is interesting and makes them a genuine mirror of the Escher so I will be extremely disappointed if House of Blades either completely ignores that connection¹ or, worse, descends into caricature.
¹ unfortunately this seems entirely possible since they didn’t update the ‘zerker unit entry background and it seems out of place against the new Goliath origin story.
Could you elaborate on your last point, since I've read house of chains and didn't notice any irregularaties about the zerkers.
Segersgia wrote: Could you elaborate on your last point, since I've read house of chains and didn't notice any irregularaties about the zerkers.
It’s just the way the ‘Zerker fluff entry is worded matches better with a house of regular humans experimenting and getting things wrong than it does with a house of tankers pushing their standard procedures too far. It has the situation of the house demographics (defined in the very same book) reversed, as well as their motivations. Further, the ‘becoming abhuman’ thing is kinda backwards too.
Which was fine before they codified the origins of the current House Goliath, back when the entry was written originally. That the then didn’t go back and change the entry, copying it wholesale from a previous publication, makes me worried that we may have different writers for each book, who may or may not have been talking to each other about their plans.
jake wrote: I don't think many people here realize this has nothing to do with playtesting? i guess this isn't common knowledge, but most game's final rules text is written AFTER the playtest phase is completed.
Hi! As someone who's been involved at all ends of this process, I don't think that's really true.
I mean, from a tautological perspective, yes, final text is of course written after play-testing is done because you have to implement the changes from the play-testing. However you appear to be implying that most of the work is done after play-testing, which just isn't true in my experience.
But if the final edit is not used and an earlier draft is accidentally put in the printed document because stuff was rushed... Yes, Shadowrun, I’m looking at you.
Regardless, unrealistic deadlines are not helpful for quality products.
I expected to see the guild that accompanies the house of blades book.. but ok..
I still think there will be another plastic kit for escher champions and leaders, that body is also new. (the face looks a lot like the smiling goliath design )
and I find this sentence interesting: We’re seeing a rise in the number of Rogue Docs offering their services.. I keep dreaming of a plastic kit for doctors
Chopstick wrote: Wow that shotgun look way too oversize, and ugly. Have they not look at the Atalan Jackal shotty before sculpting one?
Funnily enough, shotgun itself is not really unrealistic. We mass produce even bigger ones, such as this 4 gauge:
The problem is, he wouldn't be able to fire it one handed, but apparently Necromunda is populated by Custodes seeing they can lift the plasma cannon (that even space marine has to carry with both arms of his suit) using just one and a little strap, go figure.
The weapons look like they are in early stages of design considering that several of the two handed weapons don't even have any hand/arm connection points on them. They'd certainly need some new bodies and arms to hold them in place.
Loving the claw!
As for single-hand holding a shotgun - this is Necromunda of course they are singlehand holding - the coolness score gives them a bonus to strength and accuracy!
Kanluwen wrote: The lookout is begging to be used as a crew chief on one of my Valkyries.
Truthfully, that seems more fitting. The 'gang lookout' doesn't really match the style of any of the gangs. Maybe orlock or the model should just be called 'generic underhive citizen lookout'
I think that's intentional. If you're a lookout for a gang the last thing you want is to look like you're working for a gang. You want to look common and generic. To blend in and basically be overlooked.
Overread wrote: I think that's intentional. If you're a lookout for a gang the last thing you want is to look like you're working for a gang. You want to look common and generic. To blend in and basically be overlooked.
I agree - the Dome Runner looks like trouble but the Lookout could blend in almost anywhere...
Irbis wrote: The problem is, he wouldn't be able to fire it one handed, but apparently Necromunda is populated by Custodes seeing they can lift the plasma cannon (that even space marine has to carry with both arms of his suit) using just one and a little strap, go figure.
Overread wrote: I think that's intentional. If you're a lookout for a gang the last thing you want is to look like you're working for a gang. You want to look common and generic. To blend in and basically be overlooked.
The alternative is that the Lookout is just a generic citizen who gets paid to be a lookout?
the_scotsman wrote: Huh...so, I guess the new weapons pack isnt just weapons? Or is this new escher sculpt going to be with the bow gals and the zomboids?
Juves, far as I can tell, won't actually exist any more. GW is instead giving each faction their own faction unique Juves and a new name. Which makes some sense as even a Goliath Juve is going to be different to an Escher Juve.
Unless she's a new sculpt I'd wage she's one of the new youthful Escher "juves" eager to prove herself in the gang.
Overread wrote: Juves, far as I can tell, won't actually exist any more. GW is instead giving each faction their own faction unique Juves and a new name. Which makes some sense as even a Goliath Juve is going to be different to an Escher Juve.
Unless she's a new sculpt I'd wage she's one of the new youthful Escher "juves" eager to prove herself in the gang.
well, except that juves do exist still in Goliaths? And the new forgeborn are a new thing called "Prospects" which are basically super-expendable, high-risk high-reward juves.
EDIT: Yeah, juves not only still exist for Goliaths, but they got an enormous buff from what they used to be, i.e. the absolute worst juves in any gang.
Irbis wrote: The problem is, he wouldn't be able to fire it one handed, but apparently Necromunda is populated by Custodes seeing they can lift the plasma cannon (that even space marine has to carry with both arms of his suit) using just one and a little strap, go figure.
Actually, I think that's a plasma gun.
It's way too big to be a plasma gun, has cannon-like front and multiple gas flasks. And if you compare it to shotgun just above it (which is with 95% certainty the 'big' shotgun from the Matriarch photo) it's even larger than space marine plasma cannons.
Irbis wrote: The problem is, he wouldn't be able to fire it one handed, but apparently Necromunda is populated by Custodes seeing they can lift the plasma cannon (that even space marine has to carry with both arms of his suit) using just one and a little strap, go figure.
Actually, I think that's a plasma gun.
It's way too big to be a plasma gun, has cannon-like front and multiple gas flasks. And if you compare it to shotgun just above it (which is with 95% certainty the 'big' shotgun from the Matriarch photo) it's even larger than space marine plasma cannons.
The shotgun looks kinda oversized on this model (and no, it's cernainly not a Matriarch...), but if you look at the base (25mm) it's considerably smaller than the other Escher miniatures. So I don't think it's larger than a Space Marine heavy plasma gun. I'd guess it's a heavy plasma gun though, as the old one from Escher was smaller than the Van Saar one. Whyever.
Irbis wrote: The problem is, he wouldn't be able to fire it one handed, but apparently Necromunda is populated by Custodes seeing they can lift the plasma cannon (that even space marine has to carry with both arms of his suit) using just one and a little strap, go figure.
Actually, I think that's a plasma gun.
It's way too big to be a plasma gun, has cannon-like front and multiple gas flasks. And if you compare it to shotgun just above it (which is with 95% certainty the 'big' shotgun from the Matriarch photo) it's even larger than space marine plasma cannons.
It’s probably a modified one. Build up from what ever parts were available, although it’s more polished then what I would expect from a hack job coming out of the under hive. Wide beam muzzle, extra fuel, and under slung sounds like something you would use for room cleaning or holding a hallway not long range sniping. I would like to see a heat shield on the top or a cybernetic arm holding it, but the mold is probably already cut so they better paint any figure using it with a heavy sunburn on that arm.
This is by far the most exciting thing GW has done in ages...
...I wish I had the money and time to just go all-out on Necromunda, just for the minis.
The medic is pretty cool (thicc girls are necromunda cannon confirmed), liking the shotty girl, and the lookout is brilliant - hope they do more NPC/Civvie minis in future, he really oozes character.
the_scotsman wrote: Huh...so, I guess the new weapons pack isnt just weapons? Or is this new escher sculpt going to be with the bow gals and the zomboids?
Bob Lorgar wrote: Why do people think the lookout is a civilian? He's got an axe on his belt and a pistol in his left hand. Why wouldn't he fight in a game?
Because the rules say so? Most hangers-on only have stats for when the gang is ambushed or attacked at their base.
Also, it’s Necromunda; you can get arrested for not having a gun there.
Well we’ve got new weapons and bodies and heads inbound. Both these previewed models are made of parts that don’t currently exist. So either a resin expansion or, hoping, a new plastic expansion box:
I would wager resin, because there's already the plastic box of Prospects and Champions (and rat cat lizard things), and I don't see them getting two plastic kits, but who knows.
Chopstick wrote: Wow that shotgun look way too oversize, and ugly. Have they not look at the Atalan Jackal shotty before sculpting one?
Funnily enough, shotgun itself is not really unrealistic. We mass produce even bigger ones, such as this 4 gauge:
The problem is, he wouldn't be able to fire it one handed, but apparently Necromunda is populated by Custodes seeing they can lift the plasma cannon (that even space marine has to carry with both arms of his suit) using just one and a little strap, go figure.
Let’s face it, either the weapon size or rules never really stay fluid with them.
As you said, carrying a weapon easily that marines hold two handed.
As a funny note on rules, in 30k a Ogryn struggles to swing a power axe just the same as a guardsmen.
Even if it’s the same weapon on a much for capable model, rules and weapon size are always weird.
The Rogue Doc is a lovely lovely sculpt; I’ll be sure to buy one once the plague is over. Not so keen on the new Escher, however. Between the massive gun, oversized head and ~exuberant~ paintjob it looks a bit Gary Morley.
Figured it’s a more appropriate, aha, forum, than this thread 
Thanks Chopstick (it's on page 26 of The Book of Ruin, now I've gone back a few pages...)
Can't give you the exact number yet. It will be many, that's for sure. We are however also looking at high numbers for other contents of this game. Expecting to have at least 596 cards total in after the house books, inclduing 158 sub-plots and 333 tactics cards. 18 alliances! 17 gangs (29 if you include corrupted/infected variants). 10 favours tables (house,chaos, genestealer, outlaw, house gang-specific).
, I know I should have resisted 
