pancakeonions wrote: I'm very much less excited about having to buy anything else, after I pick up the Box Sex, the Ridgehauler (and maybe any future bugs they announce)
*blinks*
...well, that's a fairly epic typo.
I will be posting my unboxing video to PronHub shortly
Even the price hike hit Orlock, a gunner (ganger) with Sawn off scattershot, servo claw and photo googles cost 125 (45 + 15 + 30 +35 ), now it costs 135.
AUD$475, so even more expensive than anticipated. Somehow. Still not buying it.
And the sprue pictures make the terrain contents even more confusing. So, the huts are their own thing and not the platforms reversed - sure - but there aren't enough walkways on the sprues as presented to match what's there.
Place that I normally get stuff from sold out of the Ash Wastes cards in literally less than a minute. Sold out on GW's store within 5.
[EDIT]: All da sprues:
So my initial theory about the sprue layout was mostly right - two for the huts, three for the platforms and two for the smaller platforms. What I was not anticipating was the singular "hut accessory" sprue. And I still don't get the walkway layout. You don't appear to get enough.
It *looks* like most of the nomads, it won't be too hard to clip off or not use those odd banners they each seem to have. For those that have 'em molded over the backpack/ rebreather tanks, I suppose I can kitbash something. That's nice.
So my initial theory about the sprue layout was mostly right - two for the huts, three for the platforms and two for the smaller platforms. What I was not anticipating was the singular "hut accessory" sprue. And I still don't get the walkway layout. You don't appear to get enough.
It is definitely a mystery.
Seems to me you need to buy a box to puzzle this out. Maybe two boxes just to be sure.
They said in last weeks preorder news that cards were delayed outside of AU / NZ (maybe JP had them as well).
Edit, found the wording, US have them as well -
* The new tactics cards will be available to pre-order in North America, Australia, and New Zealand from Saturday. Unfortunately, they will be slightly delayed in the rest of the world.
Aeneades wrote: They said in last weeks preorder news that cards were delayed outside of AU / NZ (maybe JP had them as well).
Ah, you're right, thanks
* The new tactics cards will be available to pre-order in North America, Australia, and New Zealand from Saturday. Unfortunately, they will be slightly delayed in the rest of the world.
Squinting at them real hard, I'd say they're either very neat hackjobs, custom 3d prints, or an expansion kit. The existing sprues do not combine in that way without major work.
Thanks for that... I'll hold off buying the models then. All my gangs have the cards so far. I'm not buying the models till I know I can get the cards.
The fact that neither Wayland or Element have them either (and they normally get some allocation, even if they sell out really quickly), suggests maybe delayed? Although why would AUS/NZ have them??
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aeneades wrote: They said in last weeks preorder news that cards were delayed outside of AU / NZ (maybe JP had them as well).
Edit, found the wording, US have them as well -
* The new tactics cards will be available to pre-order in North America, Australia, and New Zealand from Saturday. Unfortunately, they will be slightly delayed in the rest of the world.
Ah, ok. I’d read that announcement completely backwards…
Yeah, the preview article specifically said they were only available in limited locations at this time.
Bit unusual for the UK/Europe zone to be on the naughty list but there you go.
H.B.M.C. wrote: AUD$475, so even more expensive than anticipated. Somehow. Still not buying it.
And the sprue pictures make the terrain contents even more confusing. So, the huts are their own thing and not the platforms reversed - sure - but there aren't enough walkways on the sprues as presented to match what's there.
Place that I normally get stuff from sold out of the Ash Wastes cards in literally less than a minute. Sold out on GW's store within 5.
[EDIT]: All da sprues:
So my initial theory about the sprue layout was mostly right - two for the huts, three for the platforms and two for the smaller platforms. What I was not anticipating was the singular "hut accessory" sprue. And I still don't get the walkway layout. You don't appear to get enough.
No big deal. Building your own shanty town can be a rewarding experience all on it´s own.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Dark Uprising has a whole new campaign system. Different setting, even.
I see … I don’t know this stuff because I only buy digital books.
Fair to assume most of the rules will appear in the next book. IIRC Dark Uprising had the eponymous campaign as exclusive, but everything else was in the Book of Ruin.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I went to pre-orders. I got the cards. Not getting the box for $475. Not even with a 20% discount.
If I can get it down to 50% off (ie. the price it should be), then maybe.
I used to feel super bad for Aussies until I started to look at the math....
Ash Wastes:
$475 AUD ($335.41 USD) Avg discount from what i have heard is 20% which i imagine you can get at most online stores price $380AUD / $268.33 USD
180 pounds ($226.34 USD) Not sure avg euro discount i have heard 20% online I have heard 25 but lets go with 20 price $144 pounds / $181.07 USD
$299 USD most allowed online discount is 15%... can you get better sometimes.. can you find it online better.. no price $254.15 USD
So for the average person buying the game outside of Europe Aussies are paying approx 34% more and Americans approx 31% more.
There is the cold hard facts... I wish that other countries could get the euro price for GW stuff but GW is like Disney and makes its own rules. I cut my hobby expenses from $200 a month GW a few years back... to $150 a month gaming in general... which now is rarely any GW stuff and mostly consists of other games that are equally as fun without the GW tax.
I am basically the opposite of a GW fanboy, I have spent I believe £70 on GW in the last decade (£40 on forgeworld, £30 made to order dark elves to complete my collection) but I am tempted by these. Large, multi-part cavalry for £7 each before discount which you presumably don't need that many of. Also, Ash Wastes is one of my favourite 40K setting and these would make great GM muties.
The quads don't look that great to me but at £14 each prior to discount is a pretty good price. That is pretty competitive with, say, Ramshackle Games.
So is there any word how the vehicles for the existing gangs will be handled? Are there rules for 'generic' vehicles that anyone can take (to be converted from various kits) or do we need to wait till bespoke kits and their associated rules get trickle released at some point?
Watched it. Book is like a swiss cheese: Full of holes which will be filled by upcoming books which will create more holes. In a nutshell: Bookromunda Reloaded. Anybody who wants to play a Mad Max game should use either Car Wars or Gaslands.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson wrote: So is there any word how the vehicles for the existing gangs will be handled? Are there rules for 'generic' vehicles that anyone can take (to be converted from various kits) or do we need to wait till bespoke kits and their associated rules get trickle released at some point?
Watch the video from Guerilla Miniatures. A warning though: There is VERY little meat on the bones regarding vehicular combat.
Strg Alt wrote: Watched it. Book is like a swiss cheese: Full of holes which will be filled by upcoming books which will create more holes. In a nutshell: Bookromunda Reloaded. Anybody who wants to play a Mad Max game should use either Car Wars or Gaslands.
Right, could not stand the clown wannabe bitching about prices for more than 2 minutes... If there was content there I gave up.
I tried, skipping around from point to point, and while I do agree with a few of the points, its a link that you wont regret missing out on. Easily avoidable and far to click baity to be taken remotely seriously.
Crimson wrote: So is there any word how the vehicles for the existing gangs will be handled? Are there rules for 'generic' vehicles that anyone can take (to be converted from various kits) or do we need to wait till bespoke kits and their associated rules get trickle released at some point?
If I understand correctly you're asking:
"Does GW want us to convert vehicles out of toys or want us to wait 2 years to buy Necromunda-specific vehicles for $50 a pop?"
Crimson wrote: So is there any word how the vehicles for the existing gangs will be handled? Are there rules for 'generic' vehicles that anyone can take (to be converted from various kits) or do we need to wait till bespoke kits and their associated rules get trickle released at some point?
If I understand correctly you're asking:
"Does GW want us to convert vehicles out of toys or want us to wait 2 years to buy Necromunda-specific vehicles for $50 a pop?"
I'll need a few miliseconds to think on that.
I read it more about if we can use GSC Ridge Runner and bikes modded with the appropriate gangers on them etc.
That is a question I am keen to know the answer to as well.
Look like the the new expansion officially now is literally unplayable for the majority of gangs due to the lack of vehicle.
I reckon some kind of "hired gun" generic bike or quad will be made so that every gangs can use. these should have been released day 1, or ASAP, don't know what they were thinking.
Not only that, but certain gangs get extra credits to spend on the vehicles, whilst the other gangs have to just sit and spin.
Crimson wrote: And as answer to my question: no there are no profiles for other vehicles.
Of course not. They don't sell any other vehicles for Necromunda yet. We have to wait for Book of Bugs/Bikes/Buggies/Big Rigs/etc. to come out before we get our drip-fed piecemeal gang-specific vehicles, each with an update of that specific gang, giving us Orlocks/Van Saar/Cawdor V4, Escher and Goliath V5, and Not-Delaques V3. Oh joy!
Vain wrote: I read it more about if we can use GSC Ridge Runner and bikes modded with the appropriate gangers on them etc.
Of course not, because those are Genestealer Cult vehicles, so when we get Book of Ridgerunning Jackals we'll get their four units (leader bike, bike, quad and Ridgerunner).
Why is anyone acting at all surprised by any of this???
What the actual feth was that? I'd rather shove my giblets in a blender than listen to that voice in that tirade of gak ever again. They should use this person's videos to bombard terrorist holdout situations.
The rules of the nomads come in the instruction pamphlet. Very simple and with hardly any rules.
With more news to be announced next week, I'm sure we'll soon see a supplement with the full nomad rules, truck rules, and maybe some other generic vehicle.
zamerion wrote: The rules of the nomads come in the instruction pamphlet. Very simple and with hardly any rules.
With more news to be announced next week, I'm sure we'll soon see a supplement with the full nomad rules, truck rules, and maybe some other generic vehicle.
Nomads with their own book, and then an Ash Wastes book with missions and things like the Hauler(which is run by the Guild of Coin not a specific gang).
What the actual feth was that? I'd rather shove my giblets in a blender than listen to that voice in that tirade of gak ever again. They should use this person's videos to bombard terrorist holdout situations.
opens video
"ThaE proice of niu Necroumounda Ass Wayste spocks-"
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not only that, but certain gangs get extra credits to spend on the vehicles, whilst the other gangs have to just sit and spin.
Crimson wrote: And as answer to my question: no there are no profiles for other vehicles.
Of course not. They don't sell any other vehicles for Necromunda yet. We have to wait for Book of Bugs/Bikes/Buggies/Big Rigs/etc. to come out before we get our drip-fed piecemeal gang-specific vehicles, each with an update of that specific gang, giving us Orlocks/Van Saar/Cawdor V4, Escher and Goliath V5, and Not-Delaques V3. Oh joy!
Vain wrote: I read it more about if we can use GSC Ridge Runner and bikes modded with the appropriate gangers on them etc.
Of course not, because those are Genestealer Cult vehicles, so when we get Book of Ridgerunning Jackals we'll get their four units (leader bike, bike, quad and Ridgerunner).
Why is anyone acting at all surprised by any of this???
Maybe people are sick and tired of GW´s release schedule? Other companies would print a SINGLE book featuring all kinds of vehicles usable by all factions. Then after a few months they may release a new book releasing faction specific vehicles. That is a release policy I would love to support.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not only that, but certain gangs get extra credits to spend on the vehicles, whilst the other gangs have to just sit and spin.
Crimson wrote: And as answer to my question: no there are no profiles for other vehicles.
Of course not. They don't sell any other vehicles for Necromunda yet. We have to wait for Book of Bugs/Bikes/Buggies/Big Rigs/etc. to come out before we get our drip-fed piecemeal gang-specific vehicles, each with an update of that specific gang, giving us Orlocks/Van Saar/Cawdor V4, Escher and Goliath V5, and Not-Delaques V3. Oh joy!
Vain wrote: I read it more about if we can use GSC Ridge Runner and bikes modded with the appropriate gangers on them etc.
Of course not, because those are Genestealer Cult vehicles, so when we get Book of Ridgerunning Jackals we'll get their four units (leader bike, bike, quad and Ridgerunner).
Why is anyone acting at all surprised by any of this???
Maybe people are sick and tired of GW´s release schedule? Other companies would print a SINGLE book featuring all kinds of vehicles usable by all factions. Then after a few months they may release a new book releasing faction specific vehicles. That is a release policy I would love to support.
But it isn't guaranteed and precisely engineered and designed to bring you absolutely maximum profits possible for the least amount of effort possible, so they're obviously not going to do it.
Right, could not stand the clown wannabe bitching about prices for more than 2 minutes... If there was content there I gave up.
I tried, skipping around from point to point, and while I do agree with a few of the points, its a link that you wont regret missing out on. Easily avoidable and far to click baity to be taken remotely seriously.
.
Didn’t click as there is no mention of who this even is.
But from replies, that was a good thing.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not only that, but certain gangs get extra credits to spend on the vehicles, whilst the other gangs have to just sit and spin.
Crimson wrote: And as answer to my question: no there are no profiles for other vehicles.
Of course not. They don't sell any other vehicles for Necromunda yet. We have to wait for Book of Bugs/Bikes/Buggies/Big Rigs/etc. to come out before we get our drip-fed piecemeal gang-specific vehicles, each with an update of that specific gang, giving us Orlocks/Van Saar/Cawdor V4, Escher and Goliath V5, and Not-Delaques V3. Oh joy!
Vain wrote: I read it more about if we can use GSC Ridge Runner and bikes modded with the appropriate gangers on them etc.
Of course not, because those are Genestealer Cult vehicles, so when we get Book of Ridgerunning Jackals we'll get their four units (leader bike, bike, quad and Ridgerunner).
Why is anyone acting at all surprised by any of this???
Maybe people are sick and tired of GW´s release schedule? Other companies would print a SINGLE book featuring all kinds of vehicles usable by all factions. Then after a few months they may release a new book releasing faction specific vehicles. That is a release policy I would love to support.
But it isn't guaranteed and precisely engineered and designed to bring you absolutely maximum profits possible for the least amount of effort possible, so they're obviously not going to do it.
Result: They lose me as a customer. Gee-Dubs, have fun fleecing compulsive buyers.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not only that, but certain gangs get extra credits to spend on the vehicles, whilst the other gangs have to just sit and spin.
Crimson wrote: And as answer to my question: no there are no profiles for other vehicles.
Of course not. They don't sell any other vehicles for Necromunda yet. We have to wait for Book of Bugs/Bikes/Buggies/Big Rigs/etc. to come out before we get our drip-fed piecemeal gang-specific vehicles, each with an update of that specific gang, giving us Orlocks/Van Saar/Cawdor V4, Escher and Goliath V5, and Not-Delaques V3. Oh joy!
Vain wrote: I read it more about if we can use GSC Ridge Runner and bikes modded with the appropriate gangers on them etc.
Of course not, because those are Genestealer Cult vehicles, so when we get Book of Ridgerunning Jackals we'll get their four units (leader bike, bike, quad and Ridgerunner).
Why is anyone acting at all surprised by any of this???
Maybe people are sick and tired of GW´s release schedule? Other companies would print a SINGLE book featuring all kinds of vehicles usable by all factions. Then after a few months they may release a new book releasing faction specific vehicles. That is a release policy I would love to support.
But it isn't guaranteed and precisely engineered and designed to bring you absolutely maximum profits possible for the least amount of effort possible, so they're obviously not going to do it.
Result: They lose me as a customer. Gee-Dubs, have fun fleecing compulsive buyers.
And? They keep recording record-high profits, so clearly, whoever is turned off by their policies doesn't matter on a large scale compared to their profits gained due to them.
And? They keep recording record-high profits, so clearly, whoever is turned off by their policies doesn't matter on a large scale compared to their profits gained due to them.
I think they realized a while ago what the video game market is now realizing, that they make the most income off the same whales who will buy no matter the cost.
And? They keep recording record-high profits, so clearly, whoever is turned off by their policies doesn't matter on a large scale compared to their profits gained due to them.
I think they realized a while ago what the video game market is now realizing, that they make the most income off the same whales who will buy no matter the cost.
A theory that has never made much sense, or had that much evidence supporting it, and makes even less sense and has less evidence for it in regards to Necromunda.
Because at least when you're imagining a 40K "whale" you can envision them saying "I want everything for this army" and then spending multiple thousands of dollars. Someone who wants everything for a Necromunda gang buys like 3 boxes and an expansion kit. Also, the whalists like to point to competitive players -- who are said to be willing to turn over their entire collection for a newly-powered up faction -- but Necromunda has no competitive scene or players.
On vehicles, I would bet good money there will be WD or online article on using some generic vehicles.
The GSC bikes, dune buggy and truck all come to mind. The humble Rhino was originally an exportation vehicle for hostile environments, I could even see rules for the Adeptus mech walker and hover craft, maybe the Chimera and Sentinel as well.
All of this will of course be to get you by until the House of Wheels/Tracks/Bikes/Servo Legs/hooves comes out.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: And? They keep recording record-high profits, so clearly, whoever is turned off by their policies doesn't matter on a large scale compared to their profits gained due to them.
Oh, for sure it hasn't, for the moment. But it's not like it hasn't happened before to GW, when they got too greedy, too out of touch, and suddenly everything was not well anymore.
It will eventually happen again. It's only a matter of when.
Right, could not stand the clown wannabe bitching about prices for more than 2 minutes... If there was content there I gave up.
I tried, skipping around from point to point, and while I do agree with a few of the points, its a link that you wont regret missing out on. Easily avoidable and far to click baity to be taken remotely seriously.
.
Didn’t click as there is no mention of who this even is.
But from replies, that was a good thing.
Discourse Miniatures. I had never had the misfortune of seeing their videos before. Seems all the videos they post are a series of “comedy” skits (with costumes) about how bad GW are (with occasional video about how bad another company is thrown in for “balance”).
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: And? They keep recording record-high profits, so clearly, whoever is turned off by their policies doesn't matter on a large scale compared to their profits gained due to them.
Oh, for sure it hasn't, for the moment. But it's not like it hasn't happened before to GW, when they got too greedy, too out of touch, and suddenly everything was not well anymore.
It will eventually happen again. It's only a matter of when.
I suspect they know that this box is expensive, thats probably why they released the individual box sets for the units on the same day.
Big companies can do what they want since they are fat enough to absorb miscalculations.
The way I see it they are pushing prices higher and higher and reaching the psychological barrier of the £200 but the UK average guy still not comfortable with the £100 mark in the first place.
Totally out of touch I know but then again its just a silly box with plastic toys.
From a hobby perspective there are many hours of fun in this box on its own, question is would you have more or less fun with similar boxes from GW or competitors? The terrain is ridiculously overpriced on all GW products and the more they cram it in a box set the more the price will suffer.
In classic GW fasion the Ash wastes rulebook and campaign is not actually balanced from the Ashwastes box.
The three gangs (Van Sarr, Nomads, and Orlocks) get 400 additional credits to spend on vehicles. while everyone else gets to wait for their vehicle rulebook expansion. (They get zero because they don't have access to any vehicles.) So the 300$ you drop on Ashwastes to get the rulebook lets you hope in a few months or so that they'll release another rulebook (Which they'll probably charge 50$ for.) That actually lets you play the game... assuming they release the rulebook for all the gangs vehicles (Which they may just release 1 for each individual gang massively hiking up the total.)
What on earth could go wrong with this You effectively have to create house rules and third party vehicles with no official GW rule set to even play Ashwastes in a remotely balanced way out of 300$ box.
There are also vehicle upgrades that will exist, but they aren't in the Ashwastes rulebook.
Definately another rulebook that actually tells you how to play with vehicles "Actually" coming down the line.
Basicaly all the most cynical expectations from this thread combined have actualy happened.
In classic GW fasion the Ash wastes rulebook and campaign is not actually balanced from the Ashwastes box.
The three gangs (Van Sarr, Nomads, and Orlocks) get 400 additional credits to spend on vehicles. while everyone else gets to wait for their vehicle rulebook expansion. (They get zero because they don't have access to any vehicles.) So the 300$ you drop on Ashwastes to get the rulebook lets you hope in a few months or so that they'll release another rulebook (Which they'll probably charge 50$ for.) That actually lets you play the game... assuming they release the rulebook for all the gangs vehicles (Which they may just release 1 for each individual gang massively hiking up the total.)
What on earth could go wrong with this You effectively have to create house rules and third party vehicles with no official GW rule set to even play Ashwastes in a remotely balanced way out of 300$ box.
There are also vehicle upgrades that will exist, but they aren't in the Ashwastes rulebook.
Definately another rulebook that actually tells you how to play with vehicles "Actually" coming down the line.
Basicaly all the most cynical expectations from this thread combined have actualy happened.
I'm not sure that this is even a sensible way to make money. A lot of people will pass on Ash Wastes, as they cannot play their preferred gang in it, and even if those who want to play one of the supported gangs might pass if their friends are not interested so they have no one to play with. If there were some generic vehicle profiles anyone could use they would sell a ton of Ridgerunners, Ork buggies etc, and people would actually invest in the expansion as they could play it.
Crimson wrote: I'm not sure that this is even a sensible way to make money. A lot of people will pass on Ash Wastes, as they cannot play their preferred gang in it, and even if those who want to play one of the supported gangs might pass if their friends are not interested so they have no one to play with. If there were some generic vehicle profiles anyone could use they would sell a ton of Ridgerunners, Ork buggies etc, and people would actually invest in the expansion as they could play it.
They know damn well the people who pass on this are gonna buy all the future DLC they actually need to play their prefered gang and thus probably making them more money in the long run.
And? They keep recording record-high profits, so clearly, whoever is turned off by their policies doesn't matter on a large scale compared to their profits gained due to them.
I think they realized a while ago what the video game market is now realizing, that they make the most income off the same whales who will buy no matter the cost.
A theory that has never made much sense, or had that much evidence supporting it, and makes even less sense and has less evidence for it in regards to Necromunda.
Because at least when you're imagining a 40K "whale" you can envision them saying "I want everything for this army" and then spending multiple thousands of dollars. Someone who wants everything for a Necromunda gang buys like 3 boxes and an expansion kit. Also, the whalists like to point to competitive players -- who are said to be willing to turn over their entire collection for a newly-powered up faction -- but Necromunda has no competitive scene or players.
There are people who want to buy everything for a skirmish system since, as each faction is small, the total doesn't seem so much when bought in chunks. That way they can play any variety of gang as they wish. The same thought process behind those who go for getting full sets of CCGs and such.
And? They keep recording record-high profits, so clearly, whoever is turned off by their policies doesn't matter on a large scale compared to their profits gained due to them.
I think they realized a while ago what the video game market is now realizing, that they make the most income off the same whales who will buy no matter the cost.
A theory that has never made much sense, or had that much evidence supporting it, and makes even less sense and has less evidence for it in regards to Necromunda.
Because at least when you're imagining a 40K "whale" you can envision them saying "I want everything for this army" and then spending multiple thousands of dollars. Someone who wants everything for a Necromunda gang buys like 3 boxes and an expansion kit. Also, the whalists like to point to competitive players -- who are said to be willing to turn over their entire collection for a newly-powered up faction -- but Necromunda has no competitive scene or players.
I think the GW equivalent is someone with impulse control issues and who, for whatever reason (good or bad), is largely price insensitive. The kind of person who looks at a new boxed game release and buys the whole set, the books, and a gang, without thinking about how many players there are around them. So they buy everything, maybe try a game once and then it goes on their shelf. Then the next exciting new age of sigmar army comes out and they buy 3 sets from that release, and it also goes no where. Maybe they have one functional army that they stick to. Maybe they buy a whole army and then realize they don't really like playing it that much.
The end result is that they are easily swept up in exciting new releases and may not actually end up getting much value out of what they buy. Incidentally, there is a meme for this in the hobby being "the pile of shame." That's the kind of person I'm talking about. Not the kind of person who "plays dark angels" and slowly purchases a unit at a time, incrementally assembling and painting them.
Squinting at them real hard, I'd say they're either very neat hackjobs, custom 3d prints, or an expansion kit. The existing sprues do not combine in that way without major work.
Yeah, the wall panels are half a hexagon. They've combined them by slicing off one of the sections at the corner.
Orlock Ash Wastes upgrade from forgeworlds (fairly disappointing to my eyes, i certainly won't be holding my breath for the Delaque release) Pre-order product that will be delivered from 07/05/2022.
Right, could not stand the clown wannabe bitching about prices for more than 2 minutes... If there was content there I gave up.
I tried, skipping around from point to point, and while I do agree with a few of the points, its a link that you wont regret missing out on. Easily avoidable and far to click baity to be taken remotely seriously.
.
Didn’t click as there is no mention of who this even is.
But from replies, that was a good thing.
Discourse Miniatures. I had never had the misfortune of seeing their videos before. Seems all the videos they post are a series of “comedy” skits (with costumes) about how bad GW are (with occasional video about how bad another company is thrown in for “balance”).
Glad I didn’t click.
Their videos jar with me. Seen a couple.
The titles and icons are really click bait annoying anyway, but then the style and over the top presentation itself is not for me.
GW in the 90s had such a great way of making things fun and narrative. I don't get why everything has to have so many complications in the way now.
In truth, I don't think GW relies on whales, I think there's just a big ocean of gamers who spend $500, $1000, $1500 a year on games. And their ideal customer looks a lot like most people on this forum, except they don't judge the company so much or so harshly, and spend most of their budget on GW products instead of spreading it around.
Indeed, that's why specialist games have started coming out all the time now, they know there's barely anybody out there will be willing to buy ten 40K armies, but there are lots of people who will buy a cool new hot game that reminds them of other game they liked.
Vertrucio wrote: So reviews are coming in and apparently the ash wastes book has a lot of duplicate info, and very little info about vehicles.
Not liking how this is being handled.
To me it's sounding like the book is almost for more of a boxed game approach. Correct me if i'm wrong but I didn't even see the Orlock arms masters or jump jet prospects on their list in that book. Feeling like I might've dodged a bullet sitting this one out.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Maybe the first release won't be an Ash Wastes Nomad book, but instead a "Gangs of the Ash Wastes" book that covers all the gangs.
That way they can get us to buy that as they slowly invalidate each chapter over the next two years of individual gang book releases.
A single book updating all the existing gangs to the AW rules could be useful if the rest of the upcoming books focused on new material and gangs, but that isn't likely to happen is it? Personally, I hope they just skip the "Gangs of..." part and go directly to releasing new gang books.
Two years is not pessimistic at all, if you look at how many of the factions will need a vehicle kit with rules updated, it's actually a speedy turn around.
I do wonder if they will ever go back to a typical gang release with a new 10 man gang box or if now the vehicles is the new norm.
Someone not interested in car games it sounds like the next few years will be all about you actually clearing the Necromunda pile of shame rather than getting new kits. I can live with that.
In classic GW fasion the Ash wastes rulebook and campaign is not actually balanced from the Ashwastes box.
The three gangs (Van Sarr, Nomads, and Orlocks) get 400 additional credits to spend on vehicles. while everyone else gets to wait for their vehicle rulebook expansion. (They get zero because they don't have access to any vehicles.) So the 300$ you drop on Ashwastes to get the rulebook lets you hope in a few months or so that they'll release another rulebook (Which they'll probably charge 50$ for.) That actually lets you play the game... assuming they release the rulebook for all the gangs vehicles (Which they may just release 1 for each individual gang massively hiking up the total.)
What on earth could go wrong with this You effectively have to create house rules and third party vehicles with no official GW rule set to even play Ashwastes in a remotely balanced way out of 300$ box.
There are also vehicle upgrades that will exist, but they aren't in the Ashwastes rulebook.
Definately another rulebook that actually tells you how to play with vehicles "Actually" coming down the line.
Basicaly all the most cynical expectations from this thread combined have actualy happened.
This is not entirely accurate!
I think the best way to understand this is that the Core Rulebook is gold, and an excellent update to the 2018 Rulebook (lots of lessons learned). The structure is better. The vehicle rules are actually excellent, and take older vehicle rules and really integrate them well into the activation system. Like the 2018 rulebook this book features a campaign and its mechanics, but not the "gang parts" or the trading post or that, which were in GotU.
So there will be some kind of GotU book forthcoming, and presumably both books were meant to come out with the box, but delays or business strategy or whatever else. It would have been nice if this was said, but of course GW doesn't do that in their communications. Frustrating but when you consider that the original Ash Wastes did take about eight months to be finished, kind of also very in the model of Specialist Games in the 2000s or the late 2010s.
This also explains the Trading Post update pdf; that's taking the rules from this forthcoming book, which we also need at the moment, since weapon traits are not in the core rulebook, but we do need them.
Now, so yes, in the box Hive War-esque rules for the Ash Waste Nomads and contained Orlocks as part of the instructions leaflet (and mentions look at supplements for the full rules!) As said on the website "basic gang rules", not proper rules. Just like Hive War and also Underhive. There are *not* rules for Van Saar, the author of that social media post was - without explicitly saying it - suggesting to add Mounted as a condition to Neoteks - but this isn't mentioned or suggested in the box, so they are adding some disinformation using that sense of Van Saar OP-ness outrage for rhetoric!
Anyway, I have a key frustration with this release - the lack of generic rules. I agree with them that its frustrating that gangs cannot all participate. But equally it of course makes sense looking at 2018's dual books, which was such a good solution after that painful Gang War year.
However, in the actual rulebook you can find the profile for an Ash Rig, you can find the differences that being Wheeled, Tracked or a Skimmer means, you can read how transporting infantry on vehicles works, you can find about crew and crew lasting injuries, and vehicles getting wrecked and needing repair; you can read about falling off vehicles, and fighting on them, and close combat and so on. Get creative! They mention with horror house rules - what horror! They also mention balance; good god, it's Necromunda, what is balance, the official rules are certainly not that....
Excellent vehicle rules? Beg to differ. Vehicles are treated like gangers with a couple of extra actions and a damage table. There is also ONLY one vehicle present in the core rules. I wouldn´t call this excellent but rather the direct opposite. People who want better vehicle rules might want to use their Google-Fu and take a look at Car Wars Compendium (147 pages dedicated to vehicular combat).
House orlock gang list forced all fighters to have mesh armor, but wait ganger is actually 5 credit cheaper now
Don't know why they even do this, the text only filled half of the pages, there're still plenty of stuff from house of iron other than the gang and equpment list
Excellent vehicle rules? Beg to differ. Vehicles are treated like gangers with a couple of extra actions and a damage table. There is also ONLY one vehicle present in the core rules. I wouldn´t call this excellent but rather the direct opposite. People who want better vehicle rules might want to use their Google-Fu and take a look at Car Wars Compendium (147 pages dedicated to vehicular combat).
They move differently, they receive hits differently, they suffer the consequences of being hit differently, they have a different advancement system, and different injury system, and so on? I'd argue mechanically they are different enough without importing into the game a separate rules system which would bog it down even more? Like this is a nice mesh of 2nd and 3rd edition 40k, gorkamorka and old ash wastes with modernmunda.
I was just talking about mechanical rules which I think are pretty excellent; it's ok to disagree
Anyway mechanical rules are different from characteristic profiles, and as I said above, the latter shouldn't have been expected in an update to the 2018 core rulebook? I do agree it's disappointing, but it's also logical, as that book itself only had two profiles in it too?
PetitionersCity wrote: Anyway mechanical rules are different from characteristic profiles, and as I said above, the latter shouldn't have been expected in an update to the 2018 core rulebook? I do agree it's disappointing, but it's also logical, as that book itself only had two profiles in it too?
We really should. The fact that GW wants to nickel and dime us to oblivion don't change that. If you can't have full profiles in a $300 box set... well.
As i said, it's ok to disagree; I don't know if I'd get too upset about it - I had my own moment lamenting it yesterday in the Sump City Radio group, but then I got over it - it is frustrating, but it's also logical, as i said, and I should have expected it.
Anyway, this book (and the next ones) will end up online, be it nicely scanned pdfs, Topsy's work, Shoggoth's work and/or another's work. You don't need to buy it, and as I said above, you can house rule - and perhaps create what you'd really want from the game, rather than rely on SG's sometimes problematic record on this front?
But there are many great tools in the AWR, and I think with a calmer head (as I eventually had) you'll see how good the mechanics are, and then spin off from it, or just wait - whatever is your pick
I'm saying the book is good though, and I think it's even an excellent book once I moved on past initial disappointment of what I thought it should have. When eventually you read it, or if you do read it closely using the S&B review, why not read it with an open mind?
And when you have cooler heads, you'll possibly see why I think it is a great rulebook, possibly think the opposite based on what it is, not what it isnt.
If the former maybe you'll then move to making up some interim rules (my choice) to guide player conversions, or just wait, or just convert anyway irrespective of rules.
If you don't like it, what do you do? Grumble on an internet forum and not move on? Or perhaps you'll decide to move on, and perhaps even to go back to the Magazine days by Kinrade, Ward and Witter of the first edition rules, or the SG rules of Reiner adapting the earlier content for second edition. Or just something else.
Up to you guys, and all are valid responses.
Yes I wish there was a leaflet with the blessed generic info, but there isn't and there is something bigger coming instead. And in the meantime nothing wrong with house rules; easy enough to go back to either past version of the wastes, or any of the fan editions for modernmunda from the past five years, until we have those rules, which of course you don't need to use as you might have made better
PetitionersCity wrote: I'm saying the book is good though, and I think it's even an excellent book once I moved on past initial disappointment of what I thought it should have. When eventually you read it, or if you do read it closely using the S&B review, why not read it with an open mind?
And when you have cooler heads, you'll possibly see why I think it is a great rulebook, possibly think the opposite based on what it is, not what it isnt.
If the former maybe you'll then move to making up some interim rules (my choice) to guide player conversions, or just wait, or just convert anyway irrespective of rules.
If you don't like it, what do you do? Grumble on an internet forum and not move on? Or perhaps you'll decide to move on, and perhaps even to go back to the Magazine days by Kinrade, Ward and Witter of the first edition rules, or the SG rules of Reiner adapting the earlier content for second edition. Or just something else.
Up to you guys, and all are valid responses.
Yes I wish there was a leaflet with the blessed generic info, but there isn't and there is something bigger coming instead. And in the meantime nothing wrong with house rules; easy enough to go back to either past version of the wastes, or any of the fan editions for modernmunda from the past five years, until we have those rules, which of course you don't need to use as you might have made better
I think its just another nail in the thought that GW makes rules to sell minis or makes rules to sell games, thats not the case anymore...now Its more GW makes rules to sell more rules by forcing you to get silly amounts of books that clash with each other or in this case are just incomplete.
Not a pickle for me but can respect the disappointment on people invested in GW rulesets.
So if I manage to win the lottery and can thus afford to pick up Ash Wastes I couldn't even run a Necromanda campaign with my buddies out of the box? It doesn't have complete rules?
Yeah I understand that Navarro, I think that disappointment is justifiable - but I also think we as a community have many resources that help with those issues, be it the work of Topsy or Shoggoth, or our own individual ingenuity.
PetitionersCity wrote: Yeah I understand that Navarro, I think that disappointment is justifiable - but I also think we as a community have many resources that help with those issues, be it the work of Topsy or Shoggoth, or our own individual ingenuity.
How does that discharge GW of the responsibility of making their books complete, in any way, shape or form?
I think we disagree Albertorius. You have a set view of what X should be. I understand why you are saying this, but I am (much?) more flexible and feel not so strongly that X needs to be what you view it should be. As youll see above I have written in a concessionary, and empathetic manner, that has tried to offer positive solution while continually understanding and refering back to my own initial disappointment. But I don't think you want that at the moment, or perhaps even ever, because of that set idea of X.
Thus we have conflict, and perhaps no resolution. Ah well. Neither of us is more right than the other, since of course it's all subjective. But it's a bit of a shame this thread doesn't have space for expressions of positivity and negativity, or indeed even balanced opinions as I tried above.
PetitionersCity wrote: I think we disagree Albertorius. You have a set view of what X should be. I understand why you are saying this, but I am (much?) more flexible and feel not so strongly that X needs to be what you view it should be. As youll see above I have written in a concessionary, and empathetic manner, that has tried to offer positive solution while continually understanding and refering back to my own initial disappointment. But I don't think you want that at the moment, or perhaps even ever, because of that set idea of X.
Thus we have conflict, and perhaps no resolution. Ah well. Neither of us is more right than the other, since of course it's all subjective. But it's a bit of a shame this thread doesn't have space for expressions of positivity and negativity, or indeed even balanced opinions as I tried above.
Yes, I am of the opinion that when you buy a game, you should get the game, not just a small subset of it. Particularly when said game costs $300. You can then expand on it via sourcebooks or whatever... but the game should be a full game. This is not it.
PetitionersCity wrote: I think we disagree Albertorius. You have a set view of what X should be. I understand why you are saying this, but I am (much?) more flexible and feel not so strongly that X needs to be what you view it should be. As youll see above I have written in a concessionary, and empathetic manner, that has tried to offer positive solution while continually understanding and refering back to my own initial disappointment. But I don't think you want that at the moment, or perhaps even ever, because of that set idea of X.
Thus we have conflict, and perhaps no resolution. Ah well. Neither of us is more right than the other, since of course it's all subjective. But it's a bit of a shame this thread doesn't have space for expressions of positivity and negativity, or indeed even balanced opinions as I tried above.
And here is the case in point on why GW can keep getting away with this.
Yes, I am of the opinion that when you buy a game, you should get the game, not just a small subset of it. Particularly when said game costs $300. You can then expand on it via sourcebooks or whatever... but the game should be a full game. This is not it.
As I understand it from watching several Youtube reviews/playtests Ash Wastes is a full (boxed) game.
It works as it is supposed to, i.e. you can fight with the included fighters.
In time it will evolve into a full expansion to Necromunda with vehicle rules (and minis) for many gangs (probably not all).
Not having that from the start is not (for me) neither unexpected nor bad (I prefer good, balanced and playested rules - which will take GW quite some time).
——-
I really hope the new rulebook will be better than the rest of the Newcromunda books - however I have my doubts…
For instance, as I understand it, the rules for ”Vehicle Vision Arcs” makes a short and broad vehicle much better than a long narrow one!
”Determine a vehicle’s vision arc by drawing two imaginary lines through the corners of the vehicle …”
Thus, broadening the wheelbase of a quad will not only make it look less prone to tipping over - but also give a much wider forward vision arc.
By toe to toe you meant 30 to 1 then yes they are "equal"
And the Krieg from the Kill team trailer kill the stronger "Kommando" orks and nob just fine with lasgun and chainsword, 1 or 2 orks wouldn't be a problem.
kendoka wrote: As I understand it from watching several Youtube reviews/playtests Ash Wastes is a full (boxed) game.
Technically correct is kind of the worst way of being correct. It's a Necromunda exansion, too... can you play with anything else at all from Necromunda?
Chopstick wrote: Could have just write some pages as band aid for other gangs : GSC mercenaries, geez throw some ork buggies and bike in wouldn't hurt
Surely that’s how they will sell some additional White Dwarf copies, by writing up some band aid stuff for other gangs. Maybe even single gangs featured in separate articles to maximize profits.
As I said earlier in the thread, if the cards had been available in the uk, I would have bought the cards and the nomads.
Thinking more clearly now, I realise I wouldn't have the rules for the Nomads. Does anyone know if they'll come out in a book soon. Do any rules have a release date?
Gimgamgoo wrote: Thinking more clearly now, I realise I wouldn't have the rules for the Nomads. Does anyone know if they'll come out in a book soon. Do any rules have a release date?
There's a good chance they'll announce "Book of Bugs" for Ash Waste Nomads at Warhammer Fest, or at the very least a Gangs of the Ash Wastes book that they'll slowly invalidate one gang at a time.
My gut tells me that the follow up book with the actual vehicles in it will also not have the campaign in it so if you want the campaign you'll need the Ash Wastes version of the rule set.
Its the difference between forming an opinion based on facts rather than emotions.
Gw are banking on those who react, and buy, based solely on their emotions in order to get away with predatory marketing, such as fomo or incomplete games, all while the mob stands behind them with pitchforks ready to nail any dissent against the wall.
Its pretty comical and scarey when you cut it all down to brass tacks.
PetitionersCity wrote: I think we disagree Albertorius. You have a set view of what X should be. I understand why you are saying this, but I am (much?) more flexible and feel not so strongly that X needs to be what you view it should be. As youll see above I have written in a concessionary, and empathetic manner, that has tried to offer positive solution while continually understanding and refering back to my own initial disappointment. But I don't think you want that at the moment, or perhaps even ever, because of that set idea of X.
Thus we have conflict, and perhaps no resolution. Ah well. Neither of us is more right than the other, since of course it's all subjective. But it's a bit of a shame this thread doesn't have space for expressions of positivity and negativity, or indeed even balanced opinions as I tried above.
Pretty sure it does have room for both. There just isn't much room for street preachers and soap boxes.
Your manner is neither concessionary or empathetic, and there's no point in patting yourself on the back for it here.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Thinking more clearly now, I realise I wouldn't have the rules for the Nomads. Does anyone know if they'll come out in a book soon. Do any rules have a release date?
On the upside, if you're waiting for the cards before getting the Nomads, you'll know if what Kan's saying about "basic rules in the build instructions" is correct or not.
I am usless at inserting images in Dakka posts, here's a link to the Warhammer Community post about it Mentions "a series of books" in the article and the picture shows at least three followed by a box set?
So, if that’s accurate, I’m reckoning two Gangs of the wastes books which each will cover 3 of the 6 main houses plus one extra new gang. The third book, no idea. For new gangs, I’m thinking Nomads first and then I reckon we’ll see maybe ratskins and possibly scavvies?
That’s disappointing if they are only doing three ash waste books. They really should do a separate one for each gang or potential force such as irks and GSC.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You really want another 6+ books? Are you being facetious?
Kinda both. I sold my books about the time Book of This or That started.
I am curious how many books they can generate until rebooting.
Already semi amazing that they didn’t launch a new edition last year.
This November marks five years of the current one.
They seem to be experimenting with how many splats the fans are willing to take.
Managed to gleem a few snippets from that book. I'm guessing Escher may have gene-spliced beasts to ride into the waste. Also, the Van Saar entry mentions Tech-Gangs which is a throwback to Confrontation
I appreciate the work they do for the community with the summary sheets and such, but damn that boy is full blown shill.
lol. I don't get that vibe at all (and he didn't have the set's price at the time of the video...). This set is pretty awesome though. I suppose you can quibble about the art style and whatnot, but it's pretty tough to argue against the technical quality that GW brings to the table; their models are just brilliant to assemble nowadays.
Especially the ones with separately molded necks and faces.
My guess for the next couple books is a Nomads book, with a subsection for scabies maybe, and a book of wheels that'll cover all the vehicles, and a campaign book with a nod to GSC mining facilities. Then the vehicles will be in those boxes... maybe some ash waste monsters, but those'll probably be from forge world.
I do wish more of the vehicle rules were in the main rule book. Just some basic vehicle types and upgrades (as far as I understand it, there's only the basic game mechanics for driving the quads). Then give the house gangs special upgrades and a special "champion" vehicle. Feels like they could have put the core gang creation mechanics in the basic core rules. After all the first core rule book had rules for playing the two gangs that it came with - in the rule book, not in the assembly instructions.
pancakeonions wrote: lol. I don't get that vibe at all (and he didn't have the set's price at the time of the video...). This set is pretty awesome though. I suppose you can quibble about the art style and whatnot, but it's pretty tough to argue against the technical quality that GW brings to the table; their models are just brilliant to assemble nowadays.
But dang. You pay for it.
I mean... the end result is certainly nothing like the RRT plastics but... holy hell, are they annoying to assemble nowadays. OTOH, printed minis have spoiled me, I guess.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You really want another 6+ books? Are you being facetious?
It would only make sense, if the book spines would produce a nice pic when queued in a bookshelf. Like in the case of the Duck Tales comics (German: Lustige Taschenbücher).
H.B.M.C. wrote: You really want another 6+ books? Are you being facetious?
Kinda both. I sold my books about the time Book of This or That started.
I am curious how many books they can generate until rebooting.
Already semi amazing that they didn’t launch a new edition last year.
This November marks five years of the current one.
They seem to be experimenting with how many splats the fans are willing to take.
Some of the rules releases effectively functioned as new editions, despite GW not using the word "edition" in the Necromunda landscape. But if you were to look at a game being played in 2017, 2020 and 2022 they might have as many standout differences as a game of 40K in 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition could.
If Baxx, the internet's foremost Necromunda scholar, deigns to visits the thread, he will be able to provide a much more precise breakdown of the "edition" eras because he has plotted them out and discussed them before.
Yea, I can't argue that it's a lot of work... But I'm just now getting to my Ork Commandos from Kill Team (I was intimidated by the sprues - there are eight zillion little pieces on each one, dang) and am amazed at how well they're going together. Three (and four) point joins that are so easy to glue... Heads that slot right into place and stay there. Backpacks that make sense and fit well. These models are all brilliant.
And thank god they didn't model an individual cigar for each dude, a la Necromunda '17. Dang those Goliath were stupid-complex. I just gave up, and the Escher are still sitting in the damn box.
Especially the ones with separately molded necks and faces.
My guess for the next couple books is a Nomads book, with a subsection for scabies maybe, and a book of wheels that'll cover all the vehicles, and a campaign book with a nod to GSC mining facilities. Then the vehicles will be in those boxes... maybe some ash waste monsters, but those'll probably be from forge world.
I do wish more of the vehicle rules were in the main rule book. Just some basic vehicle types and upgrades (as far as I understand it, there's only the basic game mechanics for driving the quads). Then give the house gangs special upgrades and a special "champion" vehicle. Feels like they could have put the core gang creation mechanics in the basic core rules. After all the first core rule book had rules for playing the two gangs that it came with - in the rule book, not in the assembly instructions.
So earlier I tried to explain some of this, but people obviously are upset, so perhaps not interested - but overall:
- All the core vehicle mechanics are in the rulebook - how all vehicles effectively work, including with variations for skimmers, tracked vehicles, and wheeled vehicles. Rules also how transport works too is included. There aren't mentions of walker vehicles or flyers, however, or the crawlers of old - but the tracked options works well for both, if you like, for now, until we know if they do occur. Key things which are different from "fighters" (infantry, cavalry and bikers) is they receive damage differently, they move differently, they can be climbed like terrain but it's dangerous to do so unless they have a transport capacity, they take damage differently and they have Crew, who also function differently from fighters.
Here are the core mechanics for vehicles:
Spoiler:
- Vehicle characteristic profiles are not in the core rulebook, beyond two examples (a tooled up Orlock Quad, with wargear and special rules from the forthcoming book) and an Ash Rig (which possibly is the Cargo-8) - which essentially are characteristic examples to show how to understand the profiles and how to use vehicle cards. This is much like the core rulebook from 2018, which only featured an example ganger profile and example fighter card for the same purposes (again examples for fighters are present in this rulebook).
- In the instructions leaflet is an introductory profile for an orlock buggy, but it is different in credits and composition from the one previewed on WHC last week, which presumably is the "full" profile - and costs crew separately from the vehicle itself, as crew can die, and thus need to be replaced!
Some other thoughts:
- In the leaflet also are evidence of how vehicles are modified - they have special rules like the aforementioned wheeled, tracked, skimmer, etc. In addition, the orlock buggy has the "agile" special rule - allowing it to turn twice. So not every vehicle of this "weight" might have that special rule, and there could be others too - heavy, armoured, etc., which different types of vehicles will have.
- As mentioned above, the example vehicle card shows off some of the forthcoming campaign extras a vehicle might obtain (e.g. a searchlight!). The campaign rules (also in the pdfs from Friday) tell us that vehicles can have upgrades and also have hardpoints to which fixed weapons can be attached - the rules in the leaflet obviously do not mention hardpoints or upgrades, so again, this is forthcoming. The core rulebook features a max profile for vehicles - so presumably crew gain XP for their stats - but for the M, Armour, Handling, Save and Hull Points, presumably these are the bought upgrades you spend your hard-earned credits on.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes, yes, you keep explaining how needing another 120€ worth of books that aren't even out yet to play the base game is a good thing.
No need to exaggerate, please, I haven't said that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You really want another 6+ books? Are you being facetious?
Kinda both. I sold my books about the time Book of This or That started.
I am curious how many books they can generate until rebooting.
Already semi amazing that they didn’t launch a new edition last year.
This November marks five years of the current one.
They seem to be experimenting with how many splats the fans are willing to take.
Some of the rules releases effectively functioned as new editions, despite GW not using the word "edition" in the Necromunda landscape. But if you were to look at a game being played in 2017, 2020 and 2022 they might have as many standout differences as a game of 40K in 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition could.
If Baxx, the internet's foremost Necromunda scholar, deigns to visits the thread, he will be able to provide a much more precise breakdown of the "edition" eras because he has plotted them out and discussed them before.
Agree with you on all points. Similar to the thing about tell me you’re making a new edition without saying you are making a new edition.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes, yes, you keep explaining how needing another 120€ worth of books that aren't even out yet to play the base game is a good thing.
No need to exaggerate, please, I haven't said that.
Just a FYI, it usually is not kosher here to go up and post full sets of rules.
Oh it does have some info on the different kinda of vehicles, that's good. Still, there's only a max stat line for "generic vehicle" instead of for each type and weight of vehicle. Even if they were gonna keep some types locked away to house gangs, they could have included stats for bikes, buggies and the cargo-8 that they've shown off as a generic vehicle. IF they have, then I missed it in all the explanations and unboxing vids.
They have given snippet of information as to the possibilities available if you buy the next book(s). The first rule book was limited to the models and terrain in the box (which was a bummer) but I don't remember it having a bunch of "look forward to this" bits in it.
Also, I'm excited for the expanded rules, looking forward to the future publications too. That doesn't mean that I can't be disappointed with the way they release it all. Can't make everyone happy
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes, yes, you keep explaining how needing another 120€ worth of books that aren't even out yet to play the base game is a good thing.
No need to exaggerate, please, I haven't said that.
Just a FYI, it usually is not kosher here to go up and post full sets of rules.
Its all from Sprues and Brews' review, which GW seems very happy to endorse since they keep sending them things and this read through of every page is their review MO, now for many years.
It's also not the full set of rules, although maybe I'm pushing the 10% rule of library best practice? But anything to actually help discussion
Personally I'm mostly disappointed with what the box has, and the specifics of the book therein.
It's GW policy, but the fact that the newer books give you the barest minimum for them to be considered "complete" (as in, playable with that the box has, and nothing else) irks me enough to simply not buy anything at all.
Add to that that I already have like 30 orlocks, that the totally not tuskens don't really speak that much to me and that the scenery seems to be the least useful scenery I've seen in a long time, coupled with the price point that GW nowadays think they can get away with and... well, printer goes brrrrr.
It's not like there's no good games already with a similar premise out in the wild, either.
Thank you for explaining all this, Albertorius, I do agree on having too many orlocks (and for anyone thinking to sell them off, their value will be lower now too for any resales) and wishing they had done something a bit different there.
I am really curious to see how well this will sell or not. Maybe it is, like many boxes, a once and done. Maybe a smaller hive war box will come too.
And yes, I do agree with anyone who says a GotU style Da Uvver Book should have been in the box, or at least out alongside it..but since that isn't the case I do like to focus on the other positives in the box. But I understand why you don't see those, and happy to hear them
Albertorius wrote: Personally I'm mostly disappointed with what the box has, and the specifics of the book therein.
It's GW policy, but the fact that the newer books give you the barest minimum for them to be considered "complete" (as in, playable with that the box has, and nothing else) irks me enough to simply not buy anything at all.
Add to that that I already have like 30 orlocks, that the totally not tuskens don't really speak that much to me and that the scenery seems to be the least useful scenery I've seen in a long time, coupled with the price point that GW nowadays think they can get away with and... well, printer goes brrrrr.
It's not like there's no good games already with a similar premise out in the wild, either.
The scenery is nice to look at, but seemingly mostly only useful for that set, I was wondering what benefit being in an elevated position really gives one in an environment so little other terrain but it seems like it's because the vehicle stuff is quite strong, so being high up keeps guys from getting run over basically. But ya I agree on everything else, the only reason I never jumped into necromunda is it needs a matched play that keeps getting updated for it to work for one off games, the campaigns just aren't viable for a lot of people who can only get games in once in a while.
There is also a new rule, Battlefield Surface, in which it is generally more dangerous to be on the lower ground than above. This relates to the environment you roll for the battle - whcih can be Near Wastes, Deep Wastes and Wild Wastes. If playing the actual campaign in the book, the roads you challenge for determine which part of the Wastes the battle will be in, but if you don't want to do that, you can roll to determine where you are, or just pick. Either way, you then roll on the appropriate table for those Wastes.
Roads - another new rule - are exempt from the surface rule, however. This is recommended to be a 6-8" wide road from one side of the battlefield to the other.
In addition, you have the Season rules - Season of Fire, Season of Ash and Changing Seasons. These often affect Visability (X), another new rule. They also have other effects - radiation, wind, etc - and Pitch Black comes with a number. Something intriguing is that Visibility limits charges - you cannot charge beyond the visibility (X) distance (unless you have something that helps you see beyond). In my group we'd always let charges occur against something you couldn't see (around corners, for example), but perhaps we've been doing that wrong?
I appreciate the work they do for the community with the summary sheets and such, but damn that boy is full blown shill.
Funny. Ive been following the guy since 2009 and Peter is anything but a shill. In fact, the reason why he isnt a prolificly successful content creator is because he wont shill.
Not trying to invalidate your remark, as your opinion is your own. Im just pointing out after much experience with the guy, youd likely agree too.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yes, yes, you keep explaining how needing another 120€ worth of books that aren't even out yet to play the base game is a good thing.
No need to exaggerate, please, I haven't said that.
Maybe not explicitely, but definitely implicitely. We get it. Youre ride or die and your rationalization is the only correct interpretation. ..
...And sump city is now dead to me as legit a resource.
I appreciate the work they do for the community with the summary sheets and such, but damn that boy is full blown shill.
Funny. Ive been following the guy since 2009 and Peter is anything but a shill. In fact, the reason why he isnt a prolificly successful content creator is because he wont shill.
Not trying to invalidate your remark, as your opinion is your own. Im just pointing out after much experience with the guy, youd likely agree too.
Anybody getting pre-release/review copies of anything from GW is, at best, compromised in terms of being able to impartially review a product.
"Shills"? Good good, as a community, have you guys ever wondered if you are actually a bunch of bullies? "Sorry if you disagree with us, you are a shill/brainless/the problem and we'll gang up on you - our way or the highway". That is actually bullying, you know. Like you have created a community where saying something you
guys disagree with just leads to name calling and actual genuine internet toxicity.
When did Dakka become more negative than the Sump on yaktribe (which actually doesn't engage in that kind of language and is a constructive place to complain about current necromunda and GW, one which is pretty levelheaded) and head towards a 4chan conversation?
Ah well, guys, you've achieved the aims of your bullying - no dissent. bye! And you will pat yourselves on the back, say "mission achieved" and not realise - or fully realise, perhaps - what utter bullies you are acting like. Such an awful, poisonous attitude a number of you have, utterly unwelcoming.
If we get told who is being paid to tell us nice things about products, that helps us decide what to buy. There are laws being brought in to force that, such as telling people when a prodicty is given for free, or a review itt otherwise paid-for. But, the terms used for this kind of information, and the people creating the reviews, could be better.
PetitionersCity wrote: "Shills"? Good good, as a community, have you guys ever wondered if you are actually a bunch of bullies? "Sorry if you disagree with us, you are a shill/brainless/the problem and we'll gang up on you - our way or the highway". That is actually bullying, you know. Like you have created a community where saying something you
guys disagree with just leads to name calling and actual genuine internet toxicity.
When did Dakka become more negative than the Sump on yaktribe (which actually doesn't engage in that kind of language and is a constructive place to complain about current necromunda and GW, one which is pretty levelheaded) and head towards a 4chan conversation?
Ah well, guys, you've achieved the aims of your bullying - no dissent. bye! And you will pat yourselves on the back, say "mission achieved" and not realise - or fully realise, perhaps - what utter bullies you are acting like. Such an awful, poisonous attitude a number of you have, utterly unwelcoming.
I don't see anything wrong with calling someone who got paid to favourably review a product a shill. That's just the truth.
Anybody getting pre-release/review copies of anything from GW is, at best, compromised in terms of being able to impartially review a product.
Cow manure!
As someone who was once paid to review movies, which I saw for free before the release date, I can honestly tell you the price I paid to see the movie had no effect on my reviews. The people giving these things out for free need the reviewers more than the other way around. The value of any review isn’t numbers or thumbs up but details both good and bad. I did say some nice things about some bad movies and frequently bad things about good ones. GW doesn’t buy reviews like corporations buy politicians, but only because they can’t.
Well if you go "angry review" on their products it's very likely that they won't give you another 200-300$ product to review next time, I don't remember any movie ticket cost 100$. they cost around 2USD to 10 USD here.
The cost of me going to cinema to watch every blockbuster movies in a year is less than a single infantry box from GW.
As someone who was once paid to review movies, which I saw for free before the release date, I can honestly tell you the price I paid to see the movie had no effect on my reviews. The people giving these things out for free need the reviewers more than the other way around. The value of any review isn’t numbers or thumbs up but details both good and bad. I did say some nice things about some bad movies and frequently bad things about good ones. GW doesn’t buy reviews like corporations buy politicians, but only because they can’t.
There's a difference between a professional reviewer paid by an independent party (a newspaper, magazine, website) and an amateur doing it for free products.
Are there any independent review outlets left? Dragon magazine is long gone, I guess there's Wargames Illustrated, maybe some fan-supported sites. But yeah, I don't assign much credibility to someone working for free product. I'd give more credit to people who bought a game with their own money, invested time and can provide candid feedback.
There are maybe half a dozen magazines in the UK I'd say would qualify as "an independent party", though I'd need a trip to WH Smiths to get the names right
I don't mind reviews-for-free-product, unless the reviewer fails to disclose that this is the case.
There is a difference between people paid to provide positive reviews and people sent free copies to review.
I've seen plenty of criticism from reviews on free product.
You are welcome to not believe them and they should (and hopefully do) tell you that they've had free product - but some of the stuff in this thread is ridiculous.
Chairman Aeon wrote: As someone who was once paid to review movies, which I saw for free before the release date, I can honestly tell you the price I paid to see the movie had no effect on my reviews. The people giving these things out for free need the reviewers more than the other way around. The value of any review isn’t numbers or thumbs up but details both good and bad. I did say some nice things about some bad movies and frequently bad things about good ones. GW doesn’t buy reviews like corporations buy politicians, but only because they can’t.
Difference is, your NDA with the movie company to get access to the pre-release did not mention "not talking bad about the company/product and no corporations with competitors for 3 years after watching the movie"
and I don't think you even had an NDA with the company that made the movie in the first place (or need to avoided saying that you have seen the movie for free on pre-release)
yes GW needs the reviews, but a lot of people now make their living by reviewing GW boxes, and they need GW to get a copy of the box (gambling on pre-order if you might get a copy or not is not really an option, specially not if you need the review being live on release day)
This is one thing the company was spot on, get the influencers who make their living from social media into needing the products more than GW needs the review
for everyone who won't do it under certain conditions there will be 2 new ones who find it a good way to start their channel
... But yeah, I don't assign much credibility to someone working for free product. I'd give more credit to people who bought a game with their own money, invested time and can provide candid feedback.
Well i know of a one person who built 'communities' and spent a lot of time and money writing or recording reviews in the hope of getting onto the free product list. Didnt trust their opinion at all when they paid for stuff or got it free. That was shilling, but its pretty obvious.
Like everything, independent or 'free review copy' you have to judge that review and person on their merits. Personally I see what else they have reviewed and how I agree with those past comments. You also need to take your opinions about details and compare against the reviewers thoughts.
For Ash wastes the most detailed review ive watched was by the guy from Sump City radio. He went into great detail, sumarising the mechanics of the new ways to play etc.
I really liked the review and his summary was it is a great box. Personally tho i dont think he really reviewed the box, but its the rules he reviewed and i think everything he said about those will be correct. If you want to play it now then yeah the box is great, it has the rules, dice, tokens, etc. that you will need and wont be available separate for some time.
Is the total box good value? yes if you want both gangs anyway and more terrain. But really thats not the tough ask, you are buying into a game system that will require you to buy the gang book, the new vehicle book when it comes out, probably more different vehicles or extra gangers. Basically its £180 (£135 3rd party) plus another £100 if you want to keep playing that game as it expands. The alternative is buying rules, dice and aftermarket tokens when they eventually come out, but that will be at least £50 if not more.
Video bloggers are breaking the law if they fail to tell their legions of fans they are being paid to promote products, according to a landmark ruling from the UK advertising watchdog.
The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) told vloggers it “pays to be honest” after banning a campaign for Oreo biscuits featuring a host of YouTube stars that did not clearly label the videos as having been paid for.
I have no idea whetehr this is still as it stands, but reviews must state whetehr the product was send for free.
I'll be sopping up all that second hand marked down content for the game.
Price was a big turn off, but bang for the buck was the major issue I had.
You get ANOTHER rulebook to add to the other four or five, with even less consistency.
Some riders and the new gang, which is half a gang.
If there's anything to ask, lets ask that they at least proofread it this time. I mean $300.00? you should be expected to proofread.
Give me a free game, I'll shill all day till the cows come home. GW? Heck yeah!!! Greatest games on the planet! These games raise the dead, cure the sick, heal the wounded, feeds the poor!
Buy them, you can't live without them...
PetitionersCity wrote: In my group we'd always let charges occur against something you couldn't see (around corners, for example), but perhaps we've been doing that wrong?
Pretty sure you can normally charge things you can’t see. I assume Visibility (X) is also accounting for assorted side effects like wind disabling your other senses beyond that range too, so you basically don’t know they’re actually there. Tabletop fog of war, basically.
Anybody getting pre-release/review copies of anything from GW is, at best, compromised in terms of being able to impartially review a product.
Cow manure!
As someone who was once paid to review movies, which I saw for free before the release date, I can honestly tell you the price I paid to see the movie had no effect on my reviews. The people giving these things out for free need the reviewers more than the other way around. The value of any review isn’t numbers or thumbs up but details both good and bad. I did say some nice things about some bad movies and frequently bad things about good ones. GW doesn’t buy reviews like corporations buy politicians, but only because they can’t.
There is a body of evidence that givng people free stuff positively influences them in the favour of the giver, even when the recipient is aware of the bias and tries to minimise it. This is why drugs "repping" is increasingly heavily regulated in the UK,to minimise the effects on prescribing habits and ensure prescriptions are based on evidence and cost-effectiveness rather than the all-inclusive trip to Tenerife the rep sent you on (this used to happen).
Absolutely the same thing will happen with boxset reviewers, so it is technically true they will be "compromised". However, the effect is much less important, will be quite small, and it is unlikely to turn someone into an overt shill. The pressure is still there though.
Especially as the only truly negative thing about GWs offerings is the price. The models look amazing (allowing for ranges of personal preference) and there are loads of ways to play with the toys. They are just eye wateringly expensive now as GW plumbs the depths of what the market can support.
If you no longer have to experience that particular pain, everything else will seem even more rosy by comparison.
It's difficult to review something without having the thing itself in front of you. Given the nature of GW products - games to be played, models ato be assembled - in order to have a review ready before release day, the reviewer needs to be given the product beforehand, and that can only come from GW.
Would people trust the reviews more if GW made the reviewer pay for the product they were reviewing?
Shakalooloo wrote: It's difficult to review something without having the thing itself in front of you. Given the nature of GW products - games to be played, models ato be assembled - in order to have a review ready before release day, the reviewer needs to be given the product beforehand, and that can only come from GW.
Would people trust the reviews more if GW made the reviewer pay for the product they were reviewing?
You might be too young to know this, but that's what independent reviews used to be, yes. People buying product and evaluating it. We don't have those anymore, we have influencers, and influencers sell their clout for sponsor money.
Shakalooloo wrote: It's difficult to review something without having the thing itself in front of you. Given the nature of GW products - games to be played, models ato be assembled - in order to have a review ready before release day, the reviewer needs to be given the product beforehand, and that can only come from GW.
Would people trust the reviews more if GW made the reviewer pay for the product they were reviewing?
You might be too young to know this, but that's what independent reviews used to be, yes. People buying product and evaluating it. We don't have those anymore, we have influencers, and influencers sell their clout for sponsor money.
Shakalooloo wrote: It's difficult to review something without having the thing itself in front of you. Given the nature of GW products - games to be played, models ato be assembled - in order to have a review ready before release day, the reviewer needs to be given the product beforehand, and that can only come from GW.
Would people trust the reviews more if GW made the reviewer pay for the product they were reviewing?
You might be too young to know this, but that's what independent reviews used to be, yes. People buying product and evaluating it. We don't have those anymore, we have influencers, and influencers sell their clout for sponsor money.
specially for GW, they never gave away anything for free or send out review copies until recently (~5 years now?)
a some tabletop news sites got the hate of doing more indy stuff and never a GW box for reviews, simply because they only reviewed those that they bought anyway as it was too expensive (and sometimes impossible) to get everything
I am usless at inserting images in Dakka posts, here's a link to the Warhammer Community post about it Mentions "a series of books" in the article and the picture shows at least three followed by a box set?
Yeah, though that’s just a model box not a boxed set in my opinion, and boxes to go with that third book.
To me that’s not saying three books, just (if it is an accurate order not just stock pictures) after this box you’ve got two books in a row (Nomads And Orlocks) before getting a third book with new box kits (next gang).
Though looking closely it’s just three books then three model boxes fading off.
So guarantees it’s not a box set as they wouldn’t release three box sets, but three model kits is possible/plausible (though I wouldn’t say in a row) so maybe that’s not an actual order. Just saying kits and books coming..
In classic GW fasion the Ash wastes rulebook and campaign is not actually balanced from the Ashwastes box.
The three gangs (Van Sarr, Nomads, and Orlocks) get 400 additional credits to spend on vehicles. while everyone else gets to wait for their vehicle rulebook expansion. (They get zero because they don't have access to any vehicles.) So the 300$ you drop on Ashwastes to get the rulebook lets you hope in a few months or so that they'll release another rulebook (Which they'll probably charge 50$ for.) That actually lets you play the game... assuming they release the rulebook for all the gangs vehicles (Which they may just release 1 for each individual gang massively hiking up the total.)
What on earth could go wrong with this You effectively have to create house rules and third party vehicles with no official GW rule set to even play Ashwastes in a remotely balanced way out of 300$ box.
There are also vehicle upgrades that will exist, but they aren't in the Ashwastes rulebook.
Definately another rulebook that actually tells you how to play with vehicles "Actually" coming down the line.
Basicaly all the most cynical expectations from this thread combined have actualy happened.
It is baffling how they didn't include the rules for 'generic vehicles.
(To whit Goliath, Ridgerunner, Outriders, maybe Taurox, perhaps some kit bash instructions for Armageddon enclosed pattern sentinels to civilise them).
I guess as they don't have gang specific crew. The 'no model no rules' seems to really be crippling the game in this regard.
In truth, I don't think GW relies on whales, I think there's just a big ocean of gamers who spend $500, $1000, $1500 a year on games. And their ideal customer looks a lot like most people on this forum, except they don't judge the company so much or so harshly, and spend most of their budget on GW products instead of spreading it around.
Indeed, that's why specialist games have started coming out all the time now, they know there's barely anybody out there will be willing to buy ten 40K armies, but there are lots of people who will buy a cool new hot game that reminds them of other game they liked.
From memory the company expects to make the most from a customer in the first 12 months? Been a while since I was interested in their staff training stuff. The SG stuff came back both from a change in strategy where profit on larger turnover was better, as opposed to high profit on a lower turnover, which was informed by them realising it didn't impact their core sales as much as they feared back in SGs original heyday, and to close off avenues for competitors to grow by using the market segments they feel they created and then abandoned.
So who's getting the Votann hover trike for their ash waste squat prospectors? It doesn't look too hard to convert it to have wheels either... maybe it'll even be an option in the kit (who am I kidding )
Spoiler:
or the new chaos cultists - possessed and all! Is it just me or do some of the possessed ones look like the Blackstone fortress cultists?
Spoiler:
Looks like different stages of possession or amounts of gifts. I'm psyched to see the chaos cultists getting expanded.
It is baffling how they didn't include the rules for 'generic vehicles.
(To whit Goliath, Ridgerunner, Outriders, maybe Taurox, perhaps some kit bash instructions for Armageddon enclosed pattern sentinels to civilise them).
I guess as they don't have gang specific crew. The 'no model no rules' seems to really be crippling the game in this regard.
Or maybe they just don't want to toss all that crap in?
The Ridgerunner and Goliath are the two I'd expect to see. Not the Atalan Jackals or the Taurox and extremely unlikely to see a Sentinel, except as part of an Enforcers setup.
I'd expect the Ridgerunner and Goliath because there's art of Drudges/Prospecters in the Orlock book geared up in the same garb for the most part.
It is baffling how they didn't include the rules for 'generic vehicles.
(To whit Goliath, Ridgerunner, Outriders, maybe Taurox, perhaps some kit bash instructions for Armageddon enclosed pattern sentinels to civilise them).
I guess as they don't have gang specific crew. The 'no model no rules' seems to really be crippling the game in this regard.
Or maybe they just don't want to toss all that crap in?
The Ridgerunner and Goliath are the two I'd expect to see. Not the Atalan Jackals or the Taurox and extremely unlikely to see a Sentinel, except as part of an Enforcers setup.
I'd expect the Ridgerunner and Goliath because there's art of Drudges/Prospecters in the Orlock book geared up in the same garb for the most part.
There used to be a civilian Sentinel powerloader. I could see that returning.
Chaos Cultist and Genestealer Cult are 40k factions that were repurposed to be used in Necromunda, they're not a Necromunda product. You don't even need to use those models for the faction as they can be any human models but were corrupted or infected.
Chopstick wrote: Chaos Cultist and Genestealer Cult are 40k factions that were repurposed to be used in Necromunda, they're not a Necromunda product.
That can't be. Necromunda came out in 1995 and 40k 9th edition came out in 2021 so as you can see Necromunda is much older. It is just science, and you can't argue with science.
It is baffling how they didn't include the rules for 'generic vehicles.
(To whit Goliath, Ridgerunner, Outriders, maybe Taurox, perhaps some kit bash instructions for Armageddon enclosed pattern sentinels to civilise them).
I guess as they don't have gang specific crew. The 'no model no rules' seems to really be crippling the game in this regard.
Or maybe they just don't want to toss all that crap in?
The Ridgerunner and Goliath are the two I'd expect to see. Not the Atalan Jackals or the Taurox and extremely unlikely to see a Sentinel, except as part of an Enforcers setup.
I'd expect the Ridgerunner and Goliath because there's art of Drudges/Prospecters in the Orlock book geared up in the same garb for the most part.
Why on Earth would literal dirt bikes not be suitable for the Ash Wastes?!
And given the mining theme of GSC, I think they’re an obvious fit for a main faction for this expansion, more so than some of the main gangs.
I was counting as using my Jackals with the Ash Wastes box along with my enforcers for Hive games, but I guess that if I do so I won't be dropping 300$ on something it doesn't interest me at all.
Yeah, the idea that including rules for bikes and industrial vehicles as "crap" is absurd. The fact that they didn't at least for the Outcasts gang is weird, but no models no rules is infecting SG more and more.
As for speculation for tomorrow, I reckon the first book will have Goliath, Escher and Orlock expansion lists as well as Ash Waste Nomads.
For the gangs, I'm guessing:
- Goliath will be tracked and their bikes will be half tracks and the like - Escher will be mounted with gene spliced chimeric beasts - Orlock will be what we've seen plus a full blown dune buggy.
I can understand not wanting to fill rule books up with generic stuff when Necromunda has great scope to make gang specific vehicles. Tho why people were assuming the rulebook included in a boxed set would include rules for stuff not it that set is confusing, as that has not happened in a 'Necromunda 2017' set yet? That was always in gang war books.
Generic stuff (specifically repurposed 40k models, much of which isnt actually generic as most people are talking about stuff with Genestealer crew models anyway) will almost certainly come out in WD over the next 12 months anyway.
I would say the limited scope of the box rules is probably a combination of just having limited development/playtesting time, and then those rules for the other vehicles can be released as further updates and expansions.
We have seen this with the rest of Necromunda (what is it, 13 or 14 books now?) so why should this be any different?
One of the main Necromunda social media groups on FB has actually just started deleting posts/comments on people either moaning about the rules or the prices (especially the cries of despair from people in Aus/NZ), had threads with 3-400 comments just disappearing. It has really started some firestorms in what was previously a very comfortable and relaxed niche of the community.
"Generic stuff" is a temporary band aid to this early access expansion of a 5 years old game.
When N17 launch they actually made the "legacy gang" as a free download (and it had more than 1 page) so people who didn't play Goliath or Escher can play. Now 5 years later and they can't make a single page of "Hive scum on bike" profile? This is peak low effort, and how can no one in the team not seeing this coming miles away?
Chopstick wrote: "Generic stuff" is a temporary band aid to this early access expansion of a 5 years old game.
When N17 launch they actually made the "legacy gang" as a free download (and it had more than 1 page) so people who didn't play Goliath or Escher can play. Now 5 years later and they can't make a single page of "Hive scum on bike" profile? This is peak low effort, and how can no one in the team not seeing this coming miles away?
stato wrote: I can understand not wanting to fill rule books up with generic stuff when Necromunda has great scope to make gang specific vehicles. Tho why people were assuming the rulebook included in a boxed set would include rules for stuff not it that set is confusing, as that has not happened in a 'Necromunda 2017' set yet? That was always in gang war books.
It's not assuming, or even expecting.
It's hoping.
We hoped that a Necromunda Ash Waste expansion would expand Necromunda into the Ash Wastes, not expand specifically just Orlocks and their specific new Buggies into the Ash Wastes alongside the new Nomads.
We expected Ash Wastes Nomads - comes with the territory really - but we hoped that, right out the box, we'd be able to use the existing gangs in that setting. We can't, and are forced, once again, to wait for drip fed massive and expensive splat books.
It is baffling how they didn't include the rules for 'generic vehicles.
(To whit Goliath, Ridgerunner, Outriders, maybe Taurox, perhaps some kit bash instructions for Armageddon enclosed pattern sentinels to civilise them).
I guess as they don't have gang specific crew. The 'no model no rules' seems to really be crippling the game in this regard.
Or maybe they just don't want to toss all that crap in?
The Ridgerunner and Goliath are the two I'd expect to see. Not the Atalan Jackals or the Taurox and extremely unlikely to see a Sentinel, except as part of an Enforcers setup.
I'd expect the Ridgerunner and Goliath because there's art of Drudges/Prospecters in the Orlock book geared up in the same garb for the most part.
Well yes, the Taurox is crap, but that is what the company makes.
Because I am a company who wants to make cash and sell my products. It seems counter productive not to include as many options to sell things to my consumers as much as possible. Having a pool of common gang vehicles always me to sell more out of the gate. I get why they don't like the idea of kitbashed vehicles (no models no rulz, got to ward off those 3rd party companies), so no simple vehicle build rules. But that seems here to extend to crew as well.
I would see your point if they weren't going open topped (where does the oxygen come from outside...), but they have. Outriders are a staple of mad max shenanigans. Taurox for all their awful design as a ready made enforcer vehicle. Sentinels have civilian versions and no doubt necromunda makes the military ones well.
Spoiler:
A bunch of stuff they already sell to encourage existing players to go buy their latest box. Not sure why you think it is crap?
There used to be a civilian Sentinel powerloader. I could see that returning.
The powerloader wasn't explicitly civilian.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jadenim wrote: Why on Earth would literal dirt bikes not be suitable for the Ash Wastes?!
Because the riders have a lot of GSC iconography on them...and we've not seen explicit mention of an Atalan GSC presence on Necromunda yet.
And given the mining theme of GSC, I think they’re an obvious fit for a main faction for this expansion, more so than some of the main gangs.
Agreed, but that's not why I said what I said. The Goliath and Ridgerunner both are items that could be coopted into multiple gangs--in fact, the Underhive Wars game has a Goliath used by the Orlocks during the story.
The_Real_Chris wrote: A bunch of stuff they already sell to encourage existing players to go buy their latest box. Not sure why you think it is crap?
Because it doesn't fit with the vision they seem to be pushing for Necromunda. It's just a list of things they already sell wedged in.
No it was just a utility model in a setting where we are told repeatably many common standard designs are used for multiple things across the Imperium.
Because the riders have a lot of GSC iconography on them...and we've not seen explicit mention of an Atalan GSC presence on Necromunda yet.
The_Real_Chris wrote:
A bunch of stuff they already sell to encourage existing players to go buy their latest box. Not sure why you think it is crap?
Because it doesn't fit with the vision they seem to be pushing for Necromunda. It's just a list of things they already sell wedged in.
Yes, a bunch of non military and dual use civilian vehicles in a game featuring non military and dual use civilian vehicles. That enable more people to play with their models.
Does GW ever 'recycle' their models? I wonder if they could repackage some of the GSC vehicles, taking the GSC crew out, and add a sprue of goliath/orlock/whatever dudes alongside it.
That way a bunch of gangs would have access to the same vehicle..?
pancakeonions wrote: Does GW ever 'recycle' their models? I wonder if they could repackage some of the GSC vehicles, taking the GSC crew out, and add a sprue of goliath/orlock/whatever dudes alongside it.
That way a bunch of gangs would have access to the same vehicle..?
The biggest issue with that is they would have to physically cut the crew off the sprues to make that work.
They seem to want to bring the Mercator Guild in as the vehicle operators, giving gangs a third party to work for if they are not really known for vehicles like Orlocks.
pancakeonions wrote: Does GW ever 'recycle' their models? I wonder if they could repackage some of the GSC vehicles, taking the GSC crew out, and add a sprue of goliath/orlock/whatever dudes alongside it.
That way a bunch of gangs would have access to the same vehicle..?
Doubtless, their approach is to sell a goliath (or escher, van saar, etc.) gang box and a goliath mining vehicle (taurox, gsc bikes, etc.) to folks who want to combine the two.
There used to be a civilian Sentinel powerloader. I could see that returning.
The powerloader wasn't explicitly civilian.
Good point.
Come to think of it, that probably makes it more suited for a paramilitary proxy supported by a massive industrial bloc within a heavily militarised interstellar state.
Is anything actually civilian in the Imperium, or is it military units with paramilitary units supporting the military? To be honest, I don't see why we couldn't have gangs rolling around in Chimeras and using gun Sentinels if they have the creds.
Necromunda is a major arms manufacturing planet. I’m sure there is lots of heavy equipment that goes astray from the production lines, but not quite enough to warrant formal investigation and censure.
pancakeonions wrote: Does GW ever 'recycle' their models? I wonder if they could repackage some of the GSC vehicles, taking the GSC crew out, and add a sprue of goliath/orlock/whatever dudes alongside it.
That way a bunch of gangs would have access to the same vehicle..?
They repeatedly use the Rhino sprues in a number of kits. But the most recent Sisters of Battle rhino based vehicles don't use the old sprues, same rhino design, but new sculpt, new sprues and model. GW could go either route. With digital sculpting it doesn't take much effort to reuse or rework a previously designed model. They could do a necromunda version of the GSC ridge runner kit that omits the GSC bits with bits more appropriate to necromunda.
pancakeonions wrote: Does GW ever 'recycle' their models? I wonder if they could repackage some of the GSC vehicles, taking the GSC crew out, and add a sprue of goliath/orlock/whatever dudes alongside it.
That way a bunch of gangs would have access to the same vehicle..?
They repeatedly use the Rhino sprues in a number of kits. But the most recent Sisters of Battle rhino based vehicles don't use the old sprues, same rhino design, but new sculpt, new sprues and model. GW could go either route. With digital sculpting it doesn't take much effort to reuse or rework a previously designed model. They could do a necromunda version of the GSC ridge runner kit that omits the GSC bits with bits more appropriate to necromunda.
The SoB rhino is a MkI Deimos pattern, not the MkII Mars pattern used by the current SM kits, so a different sprue is warranted.
lord_blackfang wrote: Why would gangs bother nicking gear made for IG when their back alley crap is literally better in every way.
Exactly. The Imperial Guard and what's given up as tithe is the bottom of the barrel equipment. When you look at the little bits of lore and details you can piece together it seems like even Necromunda's PDF, as something distinct from the IG are in a variety of ways better equipped.
For example there is a particular pattern of lasgun prized by the PDF for its ability to mount an exterminator auxiliary flamer, which would generally imply at some level there is some regular use of auxiliary flamers by otherwise standard troopers. We also know the PDF make use of a servo arm like suspensor for their heavy stubbers.
These are by no means big jumps in quality of equipment over IG but they are still better than what the IG would typically get.
As far as IG vehicles that would work carried over into Necromunda go... I think what would be most fitting is some 'domestic' version of sentinel, taurox, tauros and tauros venator. Necromunda would likely produce its own patterns of many of the IG vehicles or in the least vehicles in the same classes as those, where its easy to imagine some of those patterns being better than the most generally available IG patterns.
However again we know from lore there is better tech on necromunda. The only recent mention of bratt gangs in the new books, mention that these mid-hive gangers have civilian grav vehicles. I'm sure some house gang would love to kill a bratt and take their ride.
The SoB rhino is a MkI Deimos pattern, not the MkII Mars pattern used by the current SM kits, so a different sprue is warranted.
I'm speaking more broadly, those two instances of rhinos represents different approaches GW could take. The SoB rhino can be called a new kit, even a new pattern, but even the Forge deimos pattern rhinos under some resin was the plastic rhino. The SoB rhino was simply a rework of the standard rhino done at an earlier stage of their process than when they just make an add-on sprue. The SoB rhino shows that GW can just as easily rework digital assets as they can rebundle a sprue with some new stuff.
GW could justify going either route if they wanted to. End of the day IF a Ridgerunner is included in Necromunda there are only two possibilities, its the GSC kit with add-ons or its a digitally reworked Ridgerunner but with distinctive bits.
Given they're rotating kits due to a lack of warehouse space/casting time etc i really can't see them releasing effectively duplicate kits with the serial numbers filed off
i think it's more likely they'll leave it up to players to decide to bring them in (and write rules for them, although some in WD is an outside possibility),
and people will just have to wait for their gang to get whatever new mode of transport they're going to get in the same way people have had to wait for first their gang to be released (if they didn't want to play Escher or Goliath), and later for the second round of plastics to show up
lord_blackfang wrote: Why would gangs bother nicking gear made for IG when their back alley crap is literally better in every way.
Exactly. The Imperial Guard and what's given up as tithe is the bottom of the barrel equipment. When you look at the little bits of lore and details you can piece together it seems like even Necromunda's PDF, as something distinct from the IG are in a variety of ways better equipped.
For example there is a particular pattern of lasgun prized by the PDF for its ability to mount an exterminator auxiliary flamer, which would generally imply at some level there is some regular use of auxiliary flamers by otherwise standard troopers. We also know the PDF make use of a servo arm like suspensor for their heavy stubbers.
These are by no means big jumps in quality of equipment over IG but they are still better than what the IG would typically get.
I don't think it is fair to say that the Imperial Guard gets bottom-of-the barrel stuff- tithes generally have a minimum standard, and planetary governors can be executed for substandard tithes. Therefore, typically, the best troops a planet has to offer are tithed into the Guard. The Guard also favours particular weapons for their reliability and easy logistics- lasguns in particular are excellent for this. There are worse weapons than lasguns available- autoguns are comparable in a firefight but generally considered worse military weapons overall. The HH Militia list has an "Auxilia rifle" profile intended to represent a variety of slug throwers in use by PDFs around the Imperium that are less effective than the standard autogun and lasgun- this is what PDFs will use on many planets.
Necromunda is an outlier because it is a core world within Segmentum Solar, one of the most important, advanced, and developed worlds outside of the Sol system. It is also specifically a massive producer of armaments. It is therefore unsurprising that it has a high level of tech floating around. In addition, it is likely that Guard regiments tithed from Necromunda are unusually well equipped, and may be equipped to standards far beyond an average regiment. However, they still have to function within the wider Departmento Munitorum logistics (or lack of it), so there will be a focus on the preferred weaponry like lasguns over autoguns/shotguns/etc. I would not be surprised if Necromundan Guard regiments do commonly carry combi-las and combi-bolter variants.
Bear in mind that the current Astra Militarum rules do not really represent the variety within the Imperial Guard. When the Necromunda Spiders were introduced, the Imperial Guard could take combi-weapons, storm bolters, suspensors, hand flamers etc. There has been rules support for entire Guard forces to be equipped with carapace armour, bionics, or have soldiers with equipment to match Stormtroopers as troops. Well-equipped elite Guard forces have been in the background lore since the beginning.
Also, even within this context there are a lot of advantages to a reliable, environmentally-sealed, buoyant, rugged design like the Chimera in the harsh environments of the Ash Wastes. They are widely used on Armageddon for the same reason.
The SoB rhino is a MkI Deimos pattern, not the MkII Mars pattern used by the current SM kits, so a different sprue is warranted.
I'm speaking more broadly, those two instances of rhinos represents different approaches GW could take. The SoB rhino can be called a new kit, even a new pattern, but even the Forge deimos pattern rhinos under some resin was the plastic rhino. The SoB rhino was simply a rework of the standard rhino done at an earlier stage of their process than when they just make an add-on sprue. The SoB rhino shows that GW can just as easily rework digital assets as they can rebundle a sprue with some new stuff.
GW could justify going either route if they wanted to. End of the day IF a Ridgerunner is included in Necromunda there are only two possibilities, its the GSC kit with add-ons or its a digitally reworked Ridgerunner but with distinctive bits.
Come to think of it, that probably makes it more suited for a paramilitary proxy supported by a massive industrial bloc within a heavily militarised interstellar state.
Is anything actually civilian in the Imperium, or is it military units with paramilitary units supporting the military? To be honest, I don't see why we couldn't have gangs rolling around in Chimeras and using gun Sentinels if they have the creds.
Actually old fluff said the opposite. STCs were for industrial/farming/exploration vehicles but the Imperium ended up weaponizing them. It was the hand wave for why these sci fi tanks looked like WWI and WWII vehicles.
Why is anyone acting at all surprised by any of this???
Totally agree. There is nothing to be surprised about here. People who ask for more vehicles or generic vehicles will get it. Some in White Dwarf. Some in books. Just have to wait a few years first. And Delaque vehicles come last (if at all).
lord_blackfang wrote: Why would gangs bother nicking gear made for IG when their back alley crap is literally better in every way.
Necromuna produced those patterned-weapons for the Imperium, it's fair to say that a portion of them will be leaked for other hivers who would use any weapons they could get their hands on.
There're also a handful of high value Imperial weapons that is illegal and only available on the black market: autocannon, power fist, inferno pistol...
Was looking at the Squat grav bike and noticed it has little Space Marine dreadnought-like legs on the rear. Now I can't unsee it galloping along the ground...
TGG wrote: So who's getting the Votann hover trike for their ash waste squat prospectors? It doesn't look too hard to convert it to have wheels either... maybe it'll even be an option in the kit (who am I kidding )
Remember in old Necromunda we finished a campaign once with the local Imperial Fists coming in to squish the gangs.
Had to arm them up big time to have a chance against some of the several month old gangs, that were armed with every type of plasma and melta weapon, advanced forcefield tech and multi-wound monsters.
The Imperium needs to ship some of these guys out to fight on the fronts against Xenos, the bad guys wouldn't stand a chance
Well I always rationalised that as the rules system was the same but they had different progression and starting points within it. In theory an unaugmented human can never hit the level of ability of a basic marine, so the stats aren't BS4 for both for example.
I wonder if they might just come out with a crew-sprue for each gang. That way, you could pick up an Achilles or a Goliath truck, and a sprue for your gang, with a sitting driver option, a gunner option, some guys standing around who could fit in the back of a truck options, etc.
Give me a free game, I'll shill all day till the cows come home. GW? Heck yeah!!! Greatest games on the planet! These games raise the dead, cure the sick, heal the wounded, feeds the poor!
Buy them, you can't live without them...
The Porsche 911 is the greatest car ever created. This new 2022 model will have ladies dropping their panties and throwing them at you when you drive by.
Note: My opinion has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Porsche gave me a 911 for free
Along with Prospector rules, it also features expanded rules for Ash Waste Nomad war parties, Orlocks, and a complete set of new vehicle rules for gangs, including adding the Cargo-8 Ridgehauler,* Ridgerunners, Wolfquads, and Rockgrinders to your rosters.
I just want to see their helmets. I hate painting faces and think going bare head into battle is really stupid. Hoping I don't have to go 3rd party for helmets on the squats. Also I will never call them Votan, they will always be squats to me.
And yet I still was more right about which ones would make the jump than you. No Jackals on Dirtcycles, no Sentinels, no Rhinos, no Chimeras, no Taurox. The Goliath/Rockgrinder and Ridgerunner make the jump.
They literally cut 4/5 models out from the Jackals set, using just the Wolfquad.
Albertorius wrote: So... 8 to a box? Are they somehow bigger than Goliaths? Or is it just plain old "give less for more" once again?
I wouldn't mind it if they crammed in way more weapons options. But looking at the image I don't even see this so called stone burner, mining laser, the weapon options look pretty basic to me except they're all kinda twin linked...which is a visual style i'm not sure I like. Seems like a missed opportunity that none of them have pickaxes or repurposed mining gear.
With only 4 bodes, and these being much smaller than goliaths....i'm sure hoping there's more going on with the sprue than the pictures suggest. But then again the redemptionist kit exists and we all know how limited that kit was.
Albertorius wrote: So... 8 to a box? Are they somehow bigger than Goliaths? Or is it just plain old "give less for more" once again?
Ding! Ding! Ding!
In these unprecedented times of pandemic, shipping price rises, and availability challenges for many resources globally, we have, unfortunately, had to decrease the number of figures in our new release. So with the bad news out of the way, we want to reassure you, our valued customers, that we are working hard to bring you only the highest quality miniatures that your hobby funds can buy.
I wouldn't mind it if they crammed in way more weapons options. But looking at the image I don't even see this so called stone burner, mining laser, the weapon options look pretty basic to me except they're all kinda twin linked...which is a visual style i'm not sure I like. Seems like a missed opportunity that none of them have pickaxes or repurposed mining gear.
With only 4 bodes, and these being much smaller than goliaths....i'm sure hoping there's more going on with the sprue than the pictures suggest. But then again the redemptionist kit exists and we all know how limited that kit was.
The redemptionist have huge collar piece as well as arch and sconce decoration piece on the back that took away 2,3 more weapon options for them. The squat don't seem to have any decorated piece other than the servo arm of 1 model.
And yet I still was more right about which ones would make the jump than you. No Jackals on Dirtcycles, no Sentinels, no Rhinos, no Chimeras, no Taurox. The Goliath/Rockgrinder and Ridgerunner make the jump.
They literally cut 4/5 models out from the Jackals set, using just the Wolfquad.
I fully expect the bikes as well, and if there are creation rules examples of how to make stuff like Taurox (as they did with genestealers without explicitly including them).
The Rhino suggestion was a good one by a later poster and completely fits the background of the vehicle, I could easily see them added once the Mk1 comes out in plastic.
And yet I still was more right about which ones would make the jump than you. No Jackals on Dirtcycles, no Sentinels, no Rhinos, no Chimeras, no Taurox. The Goliath/Rockgrinder and Ridgerunner make the jump.
They literally cut 4/5 models out from the Jackals set, using just the Wolfquad.
I fully expect the bikes as well, and if there are creation rules examples of how to make stuff like Taurox (as they did with genestealers without explicitly including them).
Hope you're right... But fully expect that you're not.
And yet I still was more right about which ones would make the jump than you. No Jackals on Dirtcycles, no Sentinels, no Rhinos, no Chimeras, no Taurox. The Goliath/Rockgrinder and Ridgerunner make the jump.
They literally cut 4/5 models out from the Jackals set, using just the Wolfquad.
I'm not so sure, actually. They're talking about vehicles there. It's quite possible they don't rate the dirt bikes as vehicles, but as cavalry.
As to the dorfs... 8 minis per box and no necromunda bases make the box less enticing than it should be.
I don't expect the bikes but they might show up. It's weirdly specific to include the Wolfquad but not the Dirtcycles for the mentions they made...but the Wolfquad has something going for it that neither of us likely considered. Its "weapon option"? It is just mining equipment.
If I had to make a wild shot in the dark, we might see rules for Atalan Jackals period for Ash Wastes.
, and if there are creation rules examples of how to make stuff like Taurox (as they did with genestealers without explicitly including them).
I'd hold back my excitement on creation rules, after seeing the Anvil of Apotheosis for AoS.
In the various previews are the giant fleas mounts or vehicles?
Mounted also applies to dirtbikes and other wargear, and opens up opportunities for a Ride-By, in which a Mounted model may make a single close combat attack if it moves within 1” of an enemy before swooping off. Those Nomad chain lances are beginning to look mighty tasty…
So you might be spot on for the dirtbikes.
Still, they didn't mention them in the preview today!
In good spirit I shall now print out this reply and frame it. I shall then hang it so that it's the first thing everyone sees when they walk through the front door...
lord_blackfang wrote:3 factions and generic vehicles for everybody in the next book is significantly less bad than what I expected.
You know expectations are low when you need multiple qualifiers before the word BAD.
But I'm actually surprised. I was actually thinking they'd drag generic vehicle rules out to 6 or 7 books.
They'll probably still drag it out but basically if you're no Nomads or Orlocks, hurry up and wait.
The bully who usually takes all my money left me a penny! Bless him!
I have a side bet that they will do the gang wars 17/18 schtick. Put out multiple books and then start over replacing them in a short period. Of course, I lost my main bet that we would have been introduced to a new edition already. Could be they’ll churn out the vehicle supplements and then drop the new edition like they did with blood bowl.
If anyone wants to play some of the GSC bikes or other vehicles, it doesn't take a lot of effort to make rules on the same level as the official ones in the new box. Bikes would be mounts. And we already have rules for tracked and wheeled vehicles. All you need is to assign a cost and some stats, preferably relative to the 2 we got already. Not exactly rocket science, and balance hardly exists anyway, so no need to worry too much about that.
I quite like the overall aesthetic of them, but the guns make me cringe. At least they could look like they make mechanical sense… I mean they all have barrels in the mid-line of the drum mags, and the iron sights are fundamentally unusable, so why bother with them.
Chopper made it all the way to Oz and he didn't need no windshield.
Deep cut there Kid, but I don't recall Chopper being in too good shape when he got here.
Though there is the whole lack of food and water to consider there too.
Chopper made it all the way to Oz and he didn't need no windshield.
Deep cut there Kid, but I don't recall Chopper being in too good shape when he got here.
Though there is the whole lack of food and water to consider there too.
Marlon will always be a big city boy.
On an unrelated note, Marlons always have to mind the oranges.
Chopper made it all the way to Oz and he didn't need no windshield.
Deep cut there Kid, but I don't recall Chopper being in too good shape when he got here.
Though there is the whole lack of food and water to consider there too.
Marlon will always be a big city boy.
On an unrelated note, Marlons always have to mind the oranges.
Yeah! You never serve any food wearing Prussian blue accessories without a side order of chocolate-coated ant brains! That simple etiquette man!
I still don't see why they'd separate the generic vehicle rules from the core vehicle rules. Then again, GW isn't the best at organizing their rules, eh? Either way I can't wait to see the new rules and kits that they have lined up.
TGG wrote: I still don't see why they'd separate the generic vehicle rules from the core vehicle rules. Then again, GW isn't the best at organizing their rules, eh? Either way I can't wait to see the new rules and kits that they have lined up.
I guess it really depends on what you mean by "best". I'm sure that, for GW, "best" is "whatever makes people buy the most".
TGG wrote: I still don't see why they'd separate the generic vehicle rules from the core vehicle rules. Then again, GW isn't the best at organizing their rules, eh? Either way I can't wait to see the new rules and kits that they have lined up.
I guess it really depends on what you mean by "best". I'm sure that, for GW, "best" is "whatever makes people buy the most".
To crush your hobby budget. See their pile of shame grow before you. And to hear the lamentations of their spouses.
TGG wrote: I still don't see why they'd separate the generic vehicle rules from the core vehicle rules. Then again, GW isn't the best at organizing their rules, eh? Either way I can't wait to see the new rules and kits that they have lined up.
I guess it really depends on what you mean by "best". I'm sure that, for GW, "best" is "whatever makes people buy the most".
To crush your hobby budget. See their pile of shame grow before you. And to hear the lamentations of their spouses.
Anyone noticed how GW described Ash Wastes as a "new edition"? I wouldn't necessarily say it's that much more of a new edition than any of the other books, but it's certainly a new version (but so is any book strictly speaking). The most significant changes are obviously for the vehicles, separating "models" into "fighters" and "vehicles" (previously rules only mentioned fighters). Making changes to a whole range of core rules like rally, nerve tests, crew selection, actions, shooting, close combat, movement ++. Also an excuse for another "Driver" skill set (for vehicle crew).
The Ash Wastes rulebook (N22) is another botched release... not having a full read-through yet, still people have started reporting several mistakes and inconsistencies. Stuff like Pitch Black and Sneak Attack (Sentries). These kind of rules fluctuate from rulebook to rulebook. Seems like N22 is mostly copied from N19, completely ignoring any changes introduced by N21.
Also curious about Handling stat for vehicles. Running Repairs (skill) mentions a Handling check roll of a natural 6 to Restart the vehicle. This should be a 2D6 roll because the minimum stat for Hnd is 10+. Not a problem in itself, but the rules say "this driver has not only Restarted the vehicle but repaired some minor damage. The vehicle regains one lost Hull Point". A roll of 6 is not necessarily a success if Hnd is 10+!
I'm waiting for the book they recently announced before I truly get started with the game; I did already pick up a pretty good Orlock model collection from a friend. I just don't want to get their gang sourcebook (House of Iron?) only to have it invalidated within a couple of months.
