Well that's just a piss poor way to cut up the mini/model.
Sure the missile options are awesome, but WTF on the split head?
The body is split, but the wings are static. You would think with a split body they could at least put a peg on the wings to allow extended/swept options.
Looks like 18 pieces for one Valk and I went Reckless + way too much.
I'll have to get my 2 boys putting these together slave labor style to get them all done.
Salacious Greed wrote: Yep, I agree. While the missiles are awesome, why are the heads two piece?
Looking at the parts I did a bit of a double take on the head. It's easy to look at all these parts large on your screen and say oh yeah the awesome details and we'll do it like this. But I think they may be forgetting that at 1/285th scale the head is about the size of a space marine's fist. That's going to be some very fiddly bits to work with.
I like highly detailed models but there's a point where over use becomes a liability on the model due to difficulty handling small parts and needing to clean prolific amounts of mold lines.
On another note the vanes on the two air intakes are pointed downwards when they should facing forwards. As they are currently depicted it'd obstruct airflow into the engines, which is fine for the gerwalk form but not so much for the fighter mode.
paulson games wrote: On another note the vanes on the two air intakes are pointed downwards when they should facing forwards. As they are currently depicted it'd obstruct airflow into the engines, which is fine for the gerwalk form but not so much for the fighter mode.
Shh, don't let the way real jets work interfere with their completely fake and illogical sense of design, as they're already so behind schedule, and, like you adroitly pointed out, have no sense of actually putting these fidly little plastic parts together. Actually have the air intakes look like they'd intake air, so that the engines would work? Wha?
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paulson games wrote: On another note the vanes on the two air intakes are pointed downwards when they should facing forwards. As they are currently depicted it'd obstruct airflow into the engines, which is fine for the gerwalk form but not so much for the fighter mode.
Shh, don't let the way real jets work interfere with their completely fake and illogical sense of design, as they're already so behind schedule, and, like you adroitly pointed out, have no sense of actually putting these fidly little plastic parts together. Actually have the air intakes look like they'd intake air, so that the engines would work? Wha?
I'm very disappointed so far. I'm usually optimistic about this stuff, but I just can't. Even the defenders can't come up with much praise because they know the quality isn't there.
It is very disappointing to see things that have no possible benefit for the consumer be sculpted in multiple parts (like tiny heads) whereas bigger things like wings and legs are monopose with substandard modelling possibilities. That of course doesn't take into account the ugly way they've positioned the parts with seams facing the front of the model instead of on the side or hopefully hidden away underneath. At least if I buy a kit of space marines (approximately the same size as veritechs), I get a variety of poses and don't have to deal with stupid things like helmets in two pieces and having to glue small weapons like boltguns together. It sure is great that they took those extra 8 months (from the October date) and counting to put the extra polish on the models and rules.
Regardless of what they do, if they don't actually post that they're cutting the moulds this month then I officially label the project in PallimboTM (palladium + limbo) as there is no feasible way that they'd get it out the door in June with Gencon looming.
Yeah, this last update is completely underwhelming. I really had to think about it. The Destroids seem to have a crapton of parts, for a model on a 30mm base. A Terminator comes on a 40mm base, and though these models will be taller, that doesn't mean I need tiny parts that are made up of 3 other parts. Has ND actually built any miniatures before unnecessarily making these Master-level models? Come on, if GW can manufacture the Space Hulk Terminators as mostly one part figures, you can't tell me that a destroid needs to have 20+ components? This doesn't equal poseability, as someone who cares far more than I do pointed out, they don't have knee or elbow joints, so there isn't going to be a ton of different poses for these. Yes, I can pose one with hands up saying "throw me the ball!", and another in the hands at the waist "constipated look".
I agree that the feet of the Battlepods will allow for a lot of stepping, running or standing poses. But the Destroids are overly complicated for a small model, for no real reason. I don't want complicated models. I want pretty models that I can play a cool game with. Less complicated models would lower your costs too. Give me cool models and stop around.
While I agree with most of your points, none of the space hulk termies were single piece. I do agree that we're seeing an extension unfortunately of Palladium RPG Rules theory in the production of the minis sprues... bloat with no rhyme, reason, or benefit. I see very little of the type of pieces that would lead to more modelling variety (like legs being split at the knee to allow bending) but instead see crap like splits sideways down the leg with seams showing right in the front of the model.
I think what we are seeing with the parts breakdown is partially cause by Palladium's lack of knowledge of the wargaming market and complete disconnect with what the buyer wants in a miniature. Basically they are attempting to construct the miniatures as though they were models similar to the larger Nichimo kits but trying to make them more modular. The issue is that at such a small scale modularity isn't really required, people always comment that they like modularity but when it comes down to practice the majority of their space men look just like everyone else's.
You can always tweak an individual model for a great dynamic pose but in practice most armies don't need anywhere near the level of articulation they are trying to incorporate. I also find a lot of the default poses to be very awkward, to me Max's battloid looks like he's posed mid break dancing move or having some sort of seizure. The pose is disjointed and it has no sense of weight to it which detracts from it being more dynamic. I'm not bashing the detail level of the sculpt, but I think the pose itself is terrible.
From a modeling perspective the mold lines are in some annoying areas, it's going to take a lot of clean up work to get rid of the mold lines on the front faces. I think they would have been much better off if they'd aimed for models with a piece count of about 6 pieces. That's basically same part count as a space marine, lower body (legs), upper body (torso), 2 arms, head, gun. It'd still offer a base level of customization and might serve to hide the mold lines a bit better and it'd help in the assembly end as the parts wouldn't be as numerous or fiddly.
I'd pitched the game models as being best suited for metal for several reasons, speed of getting models into production was the largest factor but it also would avoid a lot of the issues with having to split models as spincasting offers a much more simplified molding process with far fewer mold lines. But what would I know?
Yeah, I am saddened by the last two updates. I don't hold out much excitement for the delivery of this KS anymore. They've made this miniatures not too detailed, but overly fidgety to put together. Multiple very small scale pieces doesn't make me excited to see this game. Scraping the mold line off of a space marine helmet is ok. Putting a two part Mech head together and scraping the mold lines off is going to be frustrating.
They've effectively taken a giant dump and digitally designed it for the UEDF side. One piece legs, or even two piece like the dreadnought, would be far better. In fact, I think a SM Dreadnought has fewer pieces (not counting extra arms in the kit) than that Destroid does, and is twice the size.
warboss wrote: While I agree with most of your points, none of the space hulk termies were single piece. I do agree that we're seeing an extension unfortunately of Palladium RPG Rules theory in the production of the minis sprues... bloat with no rhyme, reason, or benefit. I see very little of the type of pieces that would lead to more modelling variety (like legs being split at the knee to allow bending) but instead see crap like splits sideways down the leg with seams showing right in the front of the model.
Warboss, I agree. I'm not looking forward to assembling the UEDF. But, as to the termies from Space Hulk, most of them you only had to add an arm to (in the most recent edition). So I count those as being pretty much one piece. And almost the size of the Destroid, which is only a tad taller I believe.
And if those are the markers lying in front of the figures, that better not be the end product....
The Destroids are on 30mm bases? I thought they were on 40's like the Valkyries and most of the non-huge (50/60 mm like the Officer's Pod and MAC II, if I'm not mistaken) figures.
And yeah, when we start talking about 80-150'ish pieces just to build a single squad of Destroids or Battle Pods, I'm definitely starting to view my incoming list with a more and more critical eye.
"Force variety possibilities" are starting to take a back seat to "don't want to spend hours per figure just cutting them from the sprue and assembling them, okay so instead of 8 of *those*, maybe 4 will do instead..."
I mean, yes, sure, this is a hobby that requires a significant amount of time, but there are degrees present.
Cypher-xv wrote: I wish Kevin had not been so cheap and hired Paulson!
As I'd mentioned before it wasn't that I was holding out for a lot of money, this is speculation but I think what drove his decision is that he wanted a company to shoulder the development costs so all he had to do was sign of on everything there'd be no upfront investment for Palladium and their partner would do all the lifting. I think that the price point numbers offered by plastics were also something that dazzle most companies, it promises a huge return on the individual item cost but it requires a huge lead time for development and demands a more specialized skillset that what a more traditional process like metal spincasting needs.
I just wanted to clarify that point again as some of the Palladium fans have suggested that I simply asked for too much money and that's why I was dropped, which certainly isn't the case.
I was offering my services at a dirt cheap rate, but it seems that they likely wanted somebody to do all the ground work for free. I'm sure what they will end up paying out in a license arrangement with ND is many, many times higher then what I was looking for so that decision likely costs them significantly more money in the long run, but not needing to shoulder any of the upfront development costs or risks is a very attractive offer.
They likely saw potential to make a lot more money with plastics, but I don't think they fully understood what all was involved by going that route. Even most establish miniatures companies don't use plastics and with good reason, yet Palladium with no experience in the minis industry decided to jump into plastics with both feet so it's to be expected they'd be hard pressed to get something like this off the ground without multiple complications.
They can still get it done, but I think there were much faster and smoother ways they could have gotten the line launched.
On the mold line side I personally prefer to deal with mold lines that are of the raised variety as they simply need to be scraped down with a knife. A space marine head for instance doesn't require any assembly and the mold line is raised so it's easy to clean. If the part is made into two piece that require assembly you now have either seam line gaps which likely need to be filled rather then just scraped/filed. The other result is that you can have uneven pairing which results in one of the pieces being higher then the other. Sometimes you can fix uneven parts by scraping alone, but sometimes you have issues with both gaps and uneven parts which is a nightmare. For example I don't mind assembling GW infantry as all I need to do is a bit of scraping, but their vehicles are a pain as I often have to do a lot of gap filling in addition to scraping or filing.
While the infantry are multiple pieces they the individual components are more like a single part models in terms of their mold construction and how their mold lines manifest. Multipart components are another separate approach and it reflects in the pieces. They can certainly be well done and highly detailed but it impacts the amount of finish work a modeler needs to spend on his model, and most people working in 6mm scale stuff don't spend inordinate amounts of time on those models and typically put in far less time on their models then people normally working in larger scales.
Spending 6-8 hours assembling a 1/100 or 1/72 scale model kit is expected, spending an hour+ assembling a 1/285th scale kit is kinda insane.
Cypher-xv wrote: I wish Kevin had not been so cheap and hired Paulson!
As I'd mentioned before it wasn't that I was holding out for a lot of money, this is speculation but I think what drove his decision is that he wanted a company to shoulder the development costs so all he had to do was sign of on everything there'd be no upfront investment for Palladium and their partner would do all the lifting. I think that the price point numbers offered by plastics were also something that dazzle most companies, it promises a huge return on the individual item cost but it requires a huge lead time for development and demands a more specialized skillset that a more traditional process like metal spincasting needs.
I just wanted to clarify that point again as some of the Palladium fans have suggested that I simply asked for too much money and that's why I was dropped, which certainly isn't the case. I was offering my services at a dirt cheap rate, but it seems that they likely wanted somebody to do all the ground work for free. I'm sure what they will end up paying out in a license arrangement with ND is many, many times higher then what I was looking for so that decision likely costs them significantly more money in the long run, but not needing to shoulder any of the upfront development costs or risks is a very attractive offer.
They likely saw potential to make a lot more money with plastics, but I don't think they fully understood what all was involved by going that route. Even most establish miniatures companies don't use plastics and with good reason, yet Palladium with no experience in the minis industry decided to jump into plastics with both feet so it's to be expected they'd be hard pressed to get something like this off the ground without multiple complications.
They can still get it done, but I think there were much faster and smoother ways they could have gotten the line launched.
I'm sorry I wasn't inferring that. It's just these last two updates have been so underwhelming in the QC department that a happy go lucky guy like me is not happy with PB/ND. You've at least been giving insight into the process, which is more than I can say for PB/ND.
Salacious Greed wrote: They've made this miniatures not too detailed, but overly fidgety to put together. Multiple very small scale pieces doesn't make me excited to see this game.
From the sound of things, they've made the models consist of more parts than the old 1/144 Robotech kits (four non-transformable kits - one of each VF mode, and one armored VF kit). And those things had swing wings on the fighter. I doubt that this release will be nearly as nice (even accounting for the scale difference).
On another note, imo plastic makes a certain amount of sense from a public standpoint. I've got a friend who I don't think has ever played a wargame, but I think he bought into the Kickstarter. Because Robotech. And I suspect that there are quite a few like him. I suspect that plastic might go over better with those sorts of people (many young boys build at least one or two plastic models, which means that they've worked with it in the past), though the massive number of tiny fiddly bits is going to cause problems.
I agree with Paulson about the hoky pose for Max. That's why I'm glad I misplaced the flight stand. At least standing it looks like he's been caught off guard.
Salacious Greed wrote: They've made this miniatures not too detailed, but overly fidgety to put together. Multiple very small scale pieces doesn't make me excited to see this game.
From the sound of things, they've made the models consist of more parts than the old 1/144 Robotech kits (four non-transformable kits - one of each VF mode, and one armored VF kit). And those things had swing wings on the fighter. I doubt that this release will be nearly as nice (even accounting for the scale difference).
On another note, imo plastic makes a certain amount of sense from a public standpoint. I've got a friend who I don't think has ever played a wargame, but I think he bought into the Kickstarter. Because Robotech. And I suspect that there are quite a few like him. I suspect that plastic might go over better with those sorts of people (many young boys build at least one or two plastic models, which means that they've worked with it in the past), though the massive number of tiny fiddly bits is going to cause problems.
Better tell your friend he's going to stay disappointed. According to WRRD it looks like there won't be any changes to the parts we'er getting. So we'er stuck with what we have. I'm still debating about posting this sad bit of news on the RRTks.
That should be interesting. Kind of quashes some of the "omg just take as long as you need to make it the BEST EVAR!" talk if the response is "Whelp, some people think it's gak but, y'know, deadlines..."
Don't get me wrong, I've been admittedly critical of how long they've delayed, and it would be hypocritical to shift this stance without properly changing gears, so it's worth noting that my frustration with the delays was the unending talk about how awesome and professional and amazing the figures would be. We just recently began to discover that the bloody VT heads would be in two pieces, etc, so yeah, going to be a little exasperation over that simmering for a while.
Don't want to step on any toes, but I'm totally glad these are going to be in plastic. If Paulson could have done these in plastic, that would have been great. But this requires far too many models for resin, and metals are yesteryear for large tabletop games.
But I really wish PB had gone with someone with some experience. Apparently ND thinks we're all modellers, and want to spend multiple hours putting together 60pts of miniatures. Apparently they aren't modellers or converters, as others have pointed out the inflexability of their show designs. Craptastic is probably a good DakkaDakka safe word to label their model breakdowns. I cringe to see the Supers and Armoreds, as they seem to be royaling up the UEDF. Sadly, my 5 sets seem to be becoming a poor decision on my part. No wonder they don't want to share the they get from ND with us...
It seems that with each update that shows the actual realities of these miniatures, the more inclined I am to increase what portion of my 3 boxes ends up on ebay.
I mean, they've already gotten their money, but if this does become a problem for the wider base, their retailers are going to be pissed dealing with potentially thousands of people flooding the secondary market trying to unload large portions of their pledge in the same way.
The worst case scenario (aside from an utter collapse) would be this remaining a very small scale game and collector's niche. It's a wargame, they obviously (through the points totals we have) want people eventually owning thousands of points per faction in order to have diversity in the forces they can field (heavy FPA one game, battle pod swarm the next, flights of Super VFs the next, etc), but if it ends up being something that people play small scale and/or collect small packs of for dioramas and hobby modeling, they're not going to rake in nearly the kind of cash they clearly want.
From what I'm seeing it looks like PB will blame ND and ND will blame the Chinese. Now the circle is complete. Is it me or is anyone else getting the impression PB is being as cheap as possible?
So, with all the talk of fiddly pieces, will these models be made of a plastic that works with plastic glue (or styrene glue/Humbrol Precision/whatever)?
No glue will work, these can only be assembled usin Kevin's lumpy stool, it sticks, fills gaps and can be sanded when dry, makes everything seem perfect!
Joyboozer wrote:No glue will work, these can only be assembled usin Kevin's lumpy stool, it sticks, fills gaps and can be sanded when dry, makes everything seem perfect!
Good luck finding a sample. Apparently the stuff is limired edition as people keep saying he's full of it.
Whomever designed these has never had to build an army (skirmish or otherwise) of figs. Very disappointed. A veritech should have been like 6-7 parts. Fighter mode: top, bottom, wings (on hinge to be posable) and then maybe the upright tail sections and missile pods. Done. Guardian mode should be top, bottoms, arms on ball sockets, legs on ball sockets, any other detail bits. Done. Not should be front, back, arms on ball sockets, legs on ball sockets, gun pod, and head(s). Done. And these are like the MOST parts per model.
I think the person who made this design is buddies with some bigwig at ND. I don't think this person has played any tabletop game ever. How in the $%#& could such a piss poor model with limited poses be shown to us and be told the paint will cover up the imperfections.
I think this is all a plot. PB is going to cultivate all that slime from their business practices and sell it as PB liquid green stuff for all your mold line gap woes.
And another thing, Forar, your worst case scenario that you posted above is actually what I was thinking the best case scenario was going to be for this game from the beginning.
The IP crap alone, and HG letting it rot on the vine for so many years has pretty much ensured that it is going to face an uphill battle for table time at the FLGS across the board IMHO.
Cypher-xv wrote: I think the person who made this design is buddies with some bigwig at ND. I don't think this person has played any tabletop game ever. How in the $%#& could such a piss poor model with limited poses be shown to us and be told the paint will cover up the imperfections.
ND only get paid for their work, the actual cost of production is paid by Palladium. The original sculpts were rejected based on production costs and were redesigned under instructions from Palladium to be able to be done much cheaper.
The way the mini has been parted out (split into bits) is unlikely to have been done by the sculptors at Ninja Division
that job is typically done by the tooling company (who are the ones with the experience in steel mould design)
now sensible project creators like Adam at Kingdom Death and Mark at Dreamforge then spend a load of time and effort looking over this initial parting out and suggesting/demanding changes
(it looks to me like the tooling company has experience in making larger scale kits where more parts to give a better appearance is desired)
there's still time for this to happen but with ND, Palladium, Harmony Gold and the tooling company all in the mix I'm not hopefull
Cypher-xv wrote: I think the person who made this design is buddies with some bigwig at ND. I don't think this person has played any tabletop game ever. How in the $%#& could such a piss poor model with limited poses be shown to us and be told the paint will cover up the imperfections.
ND only get paid for their work, the actual cost of production is paid by Palladium. The original sculpts were rejected based on production costs and were redesigned under instructions from Palladium to be able to be done much cheaper.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: The way the mini has been parted out (split into bits) is unlikely to have been done by the sculptors at Ninja Division
that job is typically done by the tooling company (who are the ones with the experience in steel mould design)
now sensible project creators like Adam at Kingdom Death and Mark at Dreamforge then spend a load of time and effort looking over this initial parting out and suggesting/demanding changes
(it looks to me like the tooling company has experience in making larger scale kits where more parts to give a better appearance is desired)
there's still time for this to happen but with ND, Palladium, Harmony Gold and the tooling company all in the mix I'm not hopefull
I don't know Orlando. I would agree with you, except I believe that ND had these printed, not China. So I think these non-sensical designs are right from ND, who don't seem able to locate a TableTop, nor envision a game there upon.
I guess PB wanted to go so cheap that they had ND hire people who have seen neither miniatures nor toys. Poseability? Huh, it's a model, it goes together one way. Moveable wings? Uh, wings on planes don't move. Ball joints? WTF are you talking about?? I make little pictures on CAD. ain't round in CAD! I can make the heads two pieces though. Interchangeable? Nope, but more pieces is better right?!?
And, no refunds. I just hope the word gets out, that stores order less, and don't get stuck with PB/NDs failings.
Cypher-xv wrote: I think the person who made this design is buddies with some bigwig at ND. I don't think this person has played any tabletop game ever. How in the $%#& could such a piss poor model with limited poses be shown to us and be told the paint will cover up the imperfections.
ND only get paid for their work, the actual cost of production is paid by Palladium. The original sculpts were rejected based on production costs and were redesigned under instructions from Palladium to be able to be done much cheaper.
Any source for this??
Palladium are the publisher, that's how it works, they contract out the workload to ND for the sculpting and to whoever the use for production.
They said themselves they had to get ND to rework the designs as it didn't suit their chosen production method.
There's folks who now want to sell their pledges. The way these minis are getting made I don't blame them. One guy is offering his stuff at a discount. This is bad for PB. It's like the suck just keeps on coming with them.
Joyboozer wrote: No glue will work, these can only be assembled usin Kevin's lumpy stool, it sticks, fills gaps and can be sanded when dry, makes everything seem perfect!
I do love the humor, but I'm also on the edge of a panic attack selling spree here. Knowing whether these models will bond using plastic glue/styrene solvent/Humbrol Precision/GW plastic water makes the difference between staying in and selling everything off tout suite.
Just setting up my tarp now for assembly: could you imagine what dropping a single piece would be like?
So tiny there would be no finding it.
I find putting models together the easiest but painting these little guys will take some interesting planning.
Glad I got an airbrush, I think these models will get painful to keep the paint layer thin and not lose detail.
Man the defenders are delusional! One guy over on FB said PB has no say in the design of the models. All PB does is marketing, which in of itself isn't very good either.
Cypher-xv wrote: Man the defenders are delusional! One guy over on FB said PB has no say in the design of the models. All PB does is marketing, which in of itself isn't very good either.
To be fair, it's not like their fans are used to Palladium doing much of anything, so it's probably a likely assumption.
Cypher-xv wrote: Man the defenders are delusional! One guy over on FB said PB has no say in the design of the models. All PB does is marketing, which in of itself isn't very good either.
To be fair, it's not like their fans are used to Palladium doing much of anything, so it's probably a likely assumption.
PB fandom is sad.
We might complain about GW prices but I don't think it's anywhere near the sad state of PB fandom.
Cypher-xv wrote: Man the defenders are delusional! One guy over on FB said PB has no say in the design of the models. All PB does is marketing, which in of itself isn't very good either.
Oh boy, there are some fans/backers who believe that it's not a big deal, assembly will be a snap (literally, one PB fan thinks these things just snap together for the most part), are they ever in for a rude awakening.
Others are all "Oh, I have a friend who builds models and doesn't think these are a big deal, I don't hear any model experts who are complaining" and I just want to link them to this thread and go get a bowl of popcorn.
While I'm aware that Dakka represents a wide and diverse array of player and modeler skill levels, I presume most users are beyond the average, and there's plenty of discontent to go around.
But hey, a Showdown should only have around 4,000-7,000 parts, how bad could that be for 200 models!? :-D
Forar wrote: Oh boy, there are some fans/backers who believe that it's not a big deal, assembly will be a snap (literally, one PB fan thinks these things just snap together for the most part), are they ever in for a rude awakening.
Others are all "Oh, I have a friend who builds models and doesn't think these are a big deal, I don't hear any model experts who are complaining" and I just want to link them to this thread and go get a bowl of popcorn.
While I'm aware that Dakka represents a wide and diverse array of player and modeler skill levels, I presume most users are beyond the average, and there's plenty of discontent to go around.
But hey, a Showdown should only have around 4,000-7,000 parts, how bad could that be for 200 models!? :-D
Ugh, I opened the DreamForge Leviathan Crusader box, and was like, "yowza, this will intricate to put together, but what a functionally awesome model."
I look at these Robotech models, that are going to be half as tall again as a Terminator, on the same base or smaller, and think "I wonder WTF these guys are thinking. Have they ever put such small, fidly models together?"
As to the idiot fanboys that said their modeler friends don't think it's a big deal, what game models do they with? These like look a to put together. Mike's printed paper UEDF forces look way more attractive as an option now...
Forar wrote: Oh boy, there are some fans/backers who believe that it's not a big deal, assembly will be a snap (literally, one PB fan thinks these things just snap together for the most part), are they ever in for a rude awakening.
Others are all "Oh, I have a friend who builds models and doesn't think these are a big deal, I don't hear any model experts who are complaining" and I just want to link them to this thread and go get a bowl of popcorn.
While I'm aware that Dakka represents a wide and diverse array of player and modeler skill levels, I presume most users are beyond the average, and there's plenty of discontent to go around.
But hey, a Showdown should only have around 4,000-7,000 parts, how bad could that be for 200 models!? :-D
Yeah, that math right there should be enough to give most reasonable people pause.
These are going to be HIPS, right? We'll get a sprue of crap and not a baggie of PVC parts... right?
That is my understanding. They've mentioned sprues in the past, said it would be made of ABS plastic, etc.
Cypher-xv wrote: The way Wayne is wording his post on Jaymz FB page things will stay as is.
That's my impression as well, and even if the Gencon timeline remains impossible, they're clearly pushing ahead to get it out sooner rather than later.
So if that's the case, I guess the next hope is that the Spartan truly is the worst of the lot and that the rest of the figures are vastly more sensible in the parts count and fiddlyness to put together.
Joyboozer wrote: So, what is the difference between these and the ole nichimo kits? They look exactly the same.
That's the problem. Years of having modeling options from GW has made the nichimo models look cheap in comparison. You can't even do a proper pose unless you want to hack and slash the nichimo model. Also manufacturing has improved since those kits came out. Now a days those sorry models wouldn't cut the mustard.
The old plastic kits had variable wings while these don't. I don't recall who it was in this thread but I hope who ever it was kept some of those gashapon pencil sharpeners as they might be better quality than the slew of unnecessary parts we'll get with this project.
I don't get why it's taking so long to post an update from PB. I understand if PB is making call to ND. I just hope it's not Wayne filing and filling the models to sell us on it. I feel like I just bought a time share
Joyboozer wrote: So, what is the difference between these and the ole nichimo kits? They look exactly the same.
That's the problem. Years of having modeling options from GW has made the nichimo models look cheap in comparison. You can't even do a proper pose unless you want to hack and slash the nichimo model. Also manufacturing has improved since those kits came out. Now a days those sorry models wouldn't cut the mustard.
That depends, the old Nichimo models were made to be inexpensive and were sold from vending machines. There were plenty of other models out at that time that offered much more poseability, but they were aimed at making kits available for $1.50 where other kits like the Robotech Defenders line from Revell were in the $20-$30 range.
When they were re-released as $5 for two kits it was awesome and at those prices I'd buy them all day long, so what if I needed to do some cutting? they were dirt cheap and offered a pretty good quality for the price. I'd still take the "lesser quality" of the Nichimo kits if it meant I could have a huge army of 40+ models for under a $100, especially considering they are a lot bigger then the tactics minis are going to be.
If the Tactics models had a parts break down similar to the Nichimo kits to keep things simplified they probably could have cut the prices of the old Nichimo kits by half, could you imagine the type of armies you could put together if the kits were in the same plastic and prices averaged $1-$1.50?
Well I just read the new update. I don't know anything about mold-making, but I do know plenty about assembly, and based on the three models they've shown so far, this all looks pretty ridiculous. I was so pumped when I saw this KS, and now I'm just getting angrier and angrier by the day. Their " well, we see your concerns, and here's why you're all wrong" tone doesn't help. Don't mean to sound like a troll, I'm just frustrated at possibly flushing a bunch of money down the drain.
Even worse than the BS explanation of why my modelling experience makes me an idiot, is all the people chiming in talking about how great these models are going to be, and more parts make them better, or those seams and mold lines won't be noticeable in the least. WTF? Where are these people from? And I get Wayne defending his model design, he's butthurt while incapable of seeing the terrible design.
I did like how he said that he was sorry he showed the Defender first. Me too ! But none of your other UEDF designs are up to snuff either...
It makes perfect sense to me. Unless they're using slide-core tooling, HIPS molds are pressed together from two pieces of steel. You can't have overhanging detail on a part. I can't even begin to imagine how gakky the models would look if they were only three or four pieces.
It was just to justify cheap manufacturing methods. I hate the way the models are coming along. At this rate I will never ever promote anything by ND. I will tell the truth that they along with PB screwed up something that should have been amazing.
Cypher-xv wrote: It was just to justify cheap manufacturing methods. I hate the way the models are coming along. At this rate I will never ever promote anything by ND. I will tell the truth that they along with PB screwed up something that should have been amazing.
Mouth watering models indeed.
If they wanted cheap manufacturing methods they would have gone PVC/restic route. HIPS is expensive as hell due to having to mill steel molds.
If anything, this is one of the first times in the campaign I've been very excited about my pledge. The only way to get this fine of detail on 1/300 models is by using polystyrene. Resin would be way too fragile and metal far too expensive and PVC/restic far too soft (and full of terrible mold lines, ala Mantic)
That's great an all but were all going to have boring minis. Yes I can convert but it's going to be a PITA. I haven't been this disappointed in a mecha models since the tau crises suit first came out. I thought GW was giving me a gundam model instead I got a boxy mech with chicken feet. I had to go and do some converting to get them to look like the artwork in the codex.
That dude on the right, his left arm w/ the shield, is what happens when you try to have too much going on in a single piece on a steel mold.
Because there can be no undercuts, the arm and the shield meet as a solid fugly mass. The smart thing would have been to have two separate pieces, an arm with detail on both sides and a shield with detail on both sides, that the person then glues together. As it stands that model is five parts but probably should have been at least seven (arm/shield split and torso split)
I thought some of you might find this interesting. It's a comment on the why nd was made from someone who is in the know.
My two cents about Ninja Division / Soda Pop Miniatures and what is going on:
I will start off by saying yes, I am friends with John Candice and Deke Stella of Soda Pop Miniatures and am I play tester for their games. I am writing this to clear up some of the confusion with them. Ninja Division is a new company that combines Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios. Ninja Division was created at the same time as this kickstarter and yes, they were in charge of producing sculpts, rules and tokens. One reason why Ninja Division was created is because Sodapop Miniature was part of a LLC with Cool Mini or Not, because of the bad rep. with Cool Mini they have broken away and created Ninja Division. Trust me, it has been a break up from hell for them.Why? Because, being part of a LLC Cool Mini has certain rights over their merchandise (as manufactures and rights to the molds) so, Ninja Division was created so they could create and manufacture without Cool Mini and become their own independent designers / manufactures. Now for the main question:
Why are they now running another kickstarter (Forgotten King) when this one isn't finished?
This same question was asked when this kickstarter was created because, Relic Knights (Soda Pop Miniatures and Cool Mini or Not) was already a year late at this point. Don't feel bad about Soda Pop / Ninja Division starting their Forgotten King kickstarter though, imagine how the Relic Knights people must feel. For those unfamiliar with that project it is just 3 months from being 2 years old and over a year and half of being late on shipping. Best part, it is still going on. There is still no estimated shipping date for it, they are just saying that they hope to have it out by July 2014 right in time for its release at Gencon.
For more of those who are talking about Forgotten King. Being a play tester for it I can vouch that the rules are complete and good along with the sculpts. Again, because this will be Soda Pop aka Ninja Divisions first solo project without the aid of Cool Mini, Harmony Gold or Palladium this is why they need the kickstarter to get all the expenses of mass production out of the way. Forgotten King is pretty much a kickstart to start a new company that is getting over a really bad legal heavy divorce.
I am in no way trying to condone their actions or their choices on sculpts here. Just wanted to break up the confusion with SPM / Ninja Division and their products and their projects.
The way nd is handling this it feels like a Ponzi scheme. Use the money from their new project to finish the other two that are not done. Then kick start a new project to pay for forgotten kings.
So SPM is like that guy on the street that tells you how his wife screwed him over, then the company he worked for screwed him over. Now even the government is screwing him over and now he just needs five dollars.
Will SPM wash my windshield?
I would imagine that ND was formed as a separate company to legally separate and protect their various lines from each other. That way if one were to fail it wouldn't pull down all the other projects they are juggling. It's a good business move particularly if they are taking on an outside partner that is an unknown element.
Basically what it allows them to do is insulate their soda pop lines from any pitfalls should the stuff with Palladium go bust for some reason. Same would hold true if they ended up in a potential law suit situation. If everything was under one corporate structure and one of those situations came up they could lose lines that were otherwise healthy and doing well. If all the properties were under one roof then all assets are treated as being from the same pool so it makes a lot of sense to legally separate them into different entities.
Yeah, whether it is SPM or ND, they are pretty much one and the same. SPM has the SDE and RK licenses, ND has Robotech. They are both pretty much butchering RK and Robotech.
That ND believes that they are delivering a kick- product is simply a travesty. They've made one of the simplest models into like 20+ pieces, and don't understand why people are upset? You point out that your marvelous feat of technological mastery is a ridge on the front and back of each side of the leg. FFS, I can live without that little ridge , make the model either easier to assemble or look MUCH better. The GW Dreadnoughts have FAR FAR more detail and ornamentation, and the legs are 2 pieces, front and back. And they don't have joins that I feel I need to either file down or fill in on 50+ models...
JudgeDoug, I get that the steel molds are expensive. But, and I'm not a technological master as ND is, but it seems they could have rotated the leg 90 degrees, and had no undercuts for a single piece leg. Their contention was the two little ridges on the front and back, as to why they had to do it sideways. They could have had the foot separate, like GWs Dread, and had the leg be an entire single piece. But instead, we get 2 very thin pieces, with really no significant detail, and this is their reasoning why it had to be this way. Obviously there are factories out there that could do the slide core technology and molds, as other KS companies are turning out beautiful beautiful miniatures in plastic. These are just far to intricate for a table top game, especially one that is ENTIRELY designed to be above the skirmish level, as their own skirmish rules are ridiculously simplistic and are an afterthought.
My first take is that SPM/ND has the miniature experience and certainly wouldn't have delivered breakdowns like those. It must be PB or the dastardly Chinese making those decisions, not Sopapop. After all look at those lovely productions shots of RK.
Then I look at my unassembled SDE box, and fear for my RK pledge too.
What's to fear? I thought RK existed as a purely theoretical concept these days. Sought after like the Higgs Boson of miniatures. Schrodinger's campaign, in a constant state of both rapidly progressing and nowhere near development?
... I really shouldn't be so blase about their suffering. For all we know we'll be complaining about how RRT or just wave 2 or whatever "probably won't make this Gencon either" next year.
Talk about some shattered faith. And the best part are a few of the white knights in the comments valiantly proclaiming that 'no, it's just the same few voices, totally not bunches of new people attracted to the gak storm that's brewing".
Sorry man, I'm a damned (literally, damned) veteran of these comments. We're seeing new names on a daily basis at this point. Not all attention is good attention, and they're getting a lot of it currently.
This will probably simmer down again in a few days, though like Max and Miriya there'll be flare ups as new people join the conversation and express their frustration/outrage, but it's going to be in the background for weeks and perhaps even months to come.
Off hand, the only thing that can really propel people past this is some unambiguously good news. "Molds are done, figure production began 34 minutes ago" sort of thing. "Wave one is done, loading on a ship, departure is scheduled for next week", something really tangible.
The juxtaposition of how far and ready and prepared they will claim to be one day, versus what little there is to show for it, remains jarring. Granted, at least now we're seeing prototypes and claims of actual progress into production, but 3.5 months from the end of June, 5 months until the middle of August? Still going to need a miracle to even be in the same ballpark unless they fire things up soon. We're rapidly hitting the "gak or get off the pot" point of no return here.
Which could be part of why they're busy trying to quell the annoyed sentiments with what they've produced, there simply isn't time to spend a day or three fixing up the matter. Annoyed as I am at the idea of my Spartan squad having around 140 parts (even if they're not all used, it is most of them), at this point I'm not sure I have faith they can really 'fix' these issues without another 6-12 months, and I'd rather this not become another Ogre style running gag.
As I've said elsewhere, given the choice of taking C+/B- (and I'm being generous here) 'soon(tm)' or B-/B models in a year, I'll take 'em sooner rather than later.
Not to worry, guys. Ninja Division has learned from their previous kickstarters and has done the majority of the work for their current one prior to the campaign so they expect a quick turn around and promise to keep in regular communication throughout... I'll leave it to forar to add the necessary visual queue.
Again, because this will be Soda Pop aka Ninja Divisions first solo project without the aid of Cool Mini, Harmony Gold or Palladium this is why they need the kickstarter to get all the expenses of mass production out of the way.
What I get out of this is that the Forgotten Kings Kickstarter is supposed to help set up the production lines that are needed for all of their minis. i.e. in addition to the XXXX amount of dollars that they need to create the minis for a given line, they also need a one-time YYYY amount of dollars to get the whole thing rolling. And they're using the Forgotten Kings KS to do that.
Of course, that doesn't exactly fit with the way I understand miniatures production to work. But it's the impression that I got from that quoted sentence.
warboss wrote: Not to worry, guys. Ninja Division has learned from their previous kickstarters and has done the majority of the work for their current one prior to the campaign so they expect a quick turn around and promise to keep in regular communication throughout... I'll leave it to forar to add the necessary visual queue.
You can't see it, but I'm miming gagging/choking motions, there's some truly exaggerated eye rolling, and the coup de gras are a couple of highly inappropriate gestures where I'm apparently shaking a roll of quarters in slow motion in front of my groin.
I can only imagine the email exchanges going on behind the scenes right now.
"WE ARE NEVER SENDING THEM ANOTHER UPDATE AGAIN!"
"ONE MODEL! ONE FRAKING MODEL AND THEY'VE LOST THEIR MINDS!"
"Note to staff: please see the trauma counselor at your earliest convenience. In the meantime, do not look directly at the comments, for your own good."
The only faintly amusing thing about the last update was the apology for showing everyone what we think is probably are most complex and possibly worst design.
Did noone think that the community already bemoaning split heads wanted more of the same? Talk about pouring oil onto the fire....
Okay you have the other Destroid prototypes, sp bite the bullet and show us - it cannot get any worse on the comments front .....can it.
Change tack, send out a new up to date version of the rules - nio need for the eye candy - at least stop us dwelling on what the plastic will looklike
Actually PB loves the spartan. This is from the PBFB update regarding it.
We were very happy with the Destroid prototypes that arrived late last week. With but a few small tweaks, they are done! The Spartan with missile bays open, the Tomahawk and Phalanx were among my favorites.
@Cypher: So the guys at Palladium that "love" every product that Kevin walks around with on payday soliciting opinions love the destroids too? Color me shocked... /sarcasm.
@Forar: While gagging on bile is an appropriate response (and oddly ironic given the previous "mouth watering" description), I was actually referring to jazz hands.
In the end, what I'm seeing is monopose cheap looking minis. I really hope that impression improves over the coming 6 months when we hopefully finally get them.
I still think it's going to be like RK. As far as delivery is concerned. I hope you guys don't continue to give your $macross to ND/soda pop/cipher studios. I know I won't. But that's just me and my personal opinion. :-)
Oh, I'm definitely staying way the hell away from anything PB/ND/SPM based these days.
Though I'm trying to keep my KS'ing restricted in general for now while I've got 3 massive campaigns (in terms of contributions) outstanding (Wyrd, Palladium, Flying Frog), and I suppose Dwarven Forge will be the 4th, but it's gotta end somewhere.
But this? It's becoming a running gag. I always held a measure of concern, but lately, I just kind of want to be done with it, even knowing that we'll be lucky to see wave one this year, let alone wave two.
Hell, look at their timeline on THAT. Wave 2 in October? You mean 2 months after Gencon? A time when presumably they're not going to be doing anything at all beyond attending and recovering and maybe shipping things out (MAYBE) if they actually have 5k+ packages worth of stuff in the warehouse.
Sure. SUUUUUURE you'll get the remaining dozen+ figures designed, approved, punched out and shipped over the ocean.
Edit 2: longer overdue and a remaining cluster-feth, at least Relic Knights is (apparently) giving people refunds.
As a business PB must be doing bad. One backer even came up with his own version of a RT song.
Hey, I wrote a song about this! Shame on you if you don't know the tune:
Seam lines Gapping
The feeling's smashing
My time and glue belong to you
And I'm here now, huffing
All heads are splitting
My dream has finally come true
Stage fright, go away
This is PB's update day
This is their time to be a star!
And the thrill that I feel
It's really unreal
I can't believe those gaps are that far!
This is their time to be a star!
Funny stuff to be sure but PB isn't helping matters with bad looking moulds who then tries to sell us that this is the only way. Kevin's self denial with his approval of the spartan only makes things worse.
You can't see it, but I'm miming gagging/choking motions, there's some truly exaggerated eye rolling, and the coup de gras are(...)
Pet peeve, but...
"Coup de grâce", a finishing strike. Basically the strike that delivers grace.
"Coup de gras", a fat strike, as in "hitting someone with a piece of fat".
To be totally fair to PB, how should they know what good looking miniatures look like? They don't even know what good looking publishing looks like! They don't know about miniatures.
Sadly, neither do ND apparently.
On another note. If I send one of the base boxes back full of excrement, is that illegal? Or could I convince a judge that it is the appropriate response to what was delivered?
Hilarious, but yes, far as I'm aware USPS considers fecal matter to be a biohazard, and it is illegal to mail it. There may be some fringe cases, but I imagine medical testing facilities probably use couriers and properly secured (and like quadruple layers of protection) containers to keep potential issues to a minimum.
It is definitely frustrating how Palladium seems to want to have it both ways.
We brought on ND to provide experts, experience and expertise!
But we're new to minis So very new! This is hard!
But we're sticklers for perfection, will produce mouth watering minis (seriously, whose mouth waters over a little plastic robot?)!
But did I mention this is hard? We've been told this is the way it has to be!
But we have final say. So final. Final final final final.
Cypher-xv wrote: My two cents about Ninja Division / Soda Pop Miniatures and what is going on:
I will start off by saying yes, I am friends with John Candice and Deke Stella of Soda Pop Miniatures and am I play tester for their games.
Sweet, so this certainly won't be rose colored or candy coated at all
I am writing this to clear up some of the confusion with them. Ninja Division is a new company that combines Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios. Ninja Division was created at the same time as this kickstarter and yes, they were in charge of producing sculpts, rules and tokens. One reason why Ninja Division was created is because Sodapop Miniature was part of a LLC with Cool Mini or Not, because of the bad rep. with Cool Mini they have broken away and created Ninja Division.
Bad rep with CMoN? Thats interesting. All the CMoN KS projects that have been internally controlled have been either on time or early.....
Trust me, it has been a break up from hell for them.Why? Because, being part of a LLC Cool Mini has certain rights over their merchandise (as manufactures and rights to the molds) so, Ninja Division was created so they could create and manufacture without Cool Mini and become their own independent designers / manufactures.
Could that possibly be because, as publisher, CMoN paid for all the production, including but not limited to: tooling, mould making, packaging, etc.... I wonder if Ninja Pop has actually paid all of that in full (secretwhisperNOsecretwhisper)
Now for the main question:
Why are they now running another kickstarter (Forgotten King) when this one isn't finished?
Well this one is easy: they literally have no money to produce it otherwise.
This same question was asked when this kickstarter was created because, Relic Knights (Soda Pop Miniatures and Cool Mini or Not) was already a year late at this point. Don't feel bad about Soda Pop / Ninja Division starting their Forgotten King kickstarter though, imagine how the Relic Knights people must feel. For those unfamiliar with that project it is just 3 months from being 2 years old and over a year and half of being late on shipping. Best part, it is still going on. There is still no estimated shipping date for it, they are just saying that they hope to have it out by July 2014 right in time for its release at Gencon.
So dont feel bad because Relic Knights is ridiculously late? Well that doesn't make any sense.
For more of those who are talking about Forgotten King. Being a play tester for it I can vouch that the rules are complete and good along with the sculpts.
While I agree that, as a fellow playtester, the rules are good, the 2nd part is nonsense. All the sculpts for the core game are rendered; not all of the additional digital sculpts are, however. None of them have been tooled.
Again, because this will be Soda Pop aka Ninja Divisions first solo project without the aid of Cool Mini, Harmony Gold or Palladium this is why they need the kickstarter to get all the expenses of mass production out of the way. Forgotten King is pretty much a kickstart to start a new company that is getting over a really bad legal heavy divorce.
Well that's just not true. The "divorce," as it were, could have been MUCH worse for Ninja Pop. They're fortunate the other parties invovled don't want to be a cause for any potential future failures, throw them under the bus for Relic Knights, or try to aggresively recoup the dolla dolla bills they're owed. Yeah, it could have been MUUUUUUCH worse.
I am in no way trying to condone their actions or their choices on sculpts here. Just wanted to break up the confusion with SPM / Ninja Division and their products and their projects.
You know what would have cleared the water more? If this joker could get some real information and throw a few cogent thoughts together.
In regards to the actual thread: I just don't get the renders. I don't get why you break up a small model that much. There's got to a be a point in your design process where a level of pragmatism kicks in and they decide, "No, we don't need to see Max's cock bulge in his pants through the cockpit."
Bob the Accountant wrote: At one point I was really excited about this. I loved the show as a kid and this was my first Kickstarter. Now I just want it to be over and soon.
Same here... It was my first kickstarter I became a part of last year and I begged my wife to let me blow the money for a Battle Cry+ as a father's day gift. Dreams of playing stompy robots with my son. Now after seeing the part break down of the renders and having been spoiled by 40k Minis of the last few years (SM, IKS, newer TAU), I am starting to think about trying to sell it on EBAY when/if it ever shows up in my hands. I just wish there was away for you to get your money back from a Kickstarter. I would and I would then go spend that money on at least two more Imperial Knights. I'll get my Stompy Robots some how!
Some (SOME) Kickstarters will issue refunds. Due to Amazon and KS skimming some cash off the top for their services (for larger campaigns I believe this is generally around 8-10%), if they do, it's often minus that fee, rather than a full 100% refund, though if someone is that unhappy with a project, 90%'ish is certainly better than nothing.
If we had the option I'd take my money and run. With a baby due in July I'd rather spend the money on things he'll need (not like I'll have the time to assemble and paint now lol). Mentally I've moved my excitement on to other games I already have on hand.
Well we'll just have to wait 3 months for those backer boxes to start arriving, at which point we'll all have to admit we were wrong and eat heaping helpings of crow.
I think the pleasure to pain ration would be both high and sought after. Some people would literally be tearing themselves a new to crap out bigger gold bricks...
Which is the opposite of this KS. I'll be receiving someone elses in the mail...and probably not by GenCon, though PB will sell some stuff there.
Bob the Accountant wrote: If we had the option I'd take my money and run. With a baby due in July I'd rather spend the money on things he'll need (not like I'll have the time to assemble and paint now lol). Mentally I've moved my excitement on to other games I already have on hand.
I was discussing with a friend yesterday, that assuming the average backer of the KS was 10 when the TV show came out (the prime time for nostalgia to embed itself), that puts the average backer at ~38yrs old in December. June is six months, or half a year, beyond. Actuarial tables says that approx 0.2% of 38 year olds don't make 39. Applying half that (0.1%) to the 5000 backers, means that purely from a statistical standpoint, 5 backers won't see what they backed. And it's not like gamers are known for their robust physique and physical health.
Thankfully, you've gone the other way, and are bringing new life (literally) to the numbers.
Salacious Greed wrote: I think the pleasure to pain ration would be both high and sought after. Some people would literally be tearing themselves a new to crap out bigger gold bricks...
Which is the opposite of this KS. I'll be receiving someone elses in the mail...and probably not by GenCon, though PB will sell some stuff there.
I don't doubt that Palladium will spring for air shipping a pile of boxes for them to sell at the convention if it helps get them product in time as the only option but the window for us lowly backers getting the stuff made, packaged, and slow boated over from china in addition to packaged and shipped here in the US for delivery by the same convention is closing soon. Palladium, even with the 3 or 4 people that may come help from ND, is in no condition to ship 5,000 packages AND prepare for the biggest convention they go to (which normally sucks up over 3 weeks of their time WITHOUT the kickstarter looming). My guess is that if they have to choose between one or the other that they'll prep for the convention instead.
Also, any wagers as to whether we'll see another convention exclusive mini that pledgers won't have direct access to for a second year in a row? Classy companies sell them on their website during the con for those unable to attend but we're talking about Palladium... so.. yeah...
Finally, anyone know of any news on Robotech from the GAMA trade show? Both ND and PB are listed as having booths there but I haven't seen much coverage of the event and nothing on Robotech so far. Last year we got our first peek at the Robotech minis IIRC from the show. Here is the only site that I found that seems to be updating their coverage in real time...
Finally, anyone know of any news on Robotech from the GAMA trade show? Both ND and PB are listed as having booths there but I haven't seen much coverage of the event and nothing on Robotech so far. Last year we got our first peek at the Robotech minis IIRC from the show. Here is the only site that I found that seems to be updating their coverage in real time...
Last year they were pretty happy to share tales and pictures from their displays and doing some demos, so hopefully ND/PB/someone will have something to say on the matter.
ND/SPM is there to pimp their undelivered RK. Since the best they could do last week was update that we're too stupid to recognize great model making in their Spartan design, I don't think we'll get anything out of them this week either. I don't know what PB is there to pimp, as the last book they released was promised last year or the one before. So no, I don't see them showing RRT off, as they can't legitimately look someone in the face and give them a date they could buy a single game piece. And they don't want to lie to a future customer. They know they can lie to all of us, as even they're pretty sure we're never going to buy anything from either company ever again...
Citation needed You're acting like they are trying to maintain some sort of moral high ground, they certainly didn't have many problems adjusting truth to fit their needs before and during the KS launch so I see no reason they'd suddenly start being upfront with people now.
For my mental health I should really stop reading PB's KS updates and the subsequent comments/rants but for the life is of me I can't. It's like driving by the scene of a horrific car crash and I can't help but stare.
Citation needed You're acting like they are trying to maintain some sort of moral high ground, they certainly didn't have many problems adjusting truth to fit their needs before and during the KS launch so I see no reason they'd suddenly start being upfront with people now.
No citation. Merely the average squemish human being's inability to lie in the face of another person. I don't know PB personally, so can't vouch for whether they are officially soulless or not. Merely being facetous and snarky. I am fully prepared to serve my internet penitence for being called out on PB being actual human beings...
On a side note, ND published a picture of GAMA, and they're pimping both Relic Knights and Anima Tactics while ignoring their SDEKS. SDE has a ton of followers, as they've blown past 2k backers, even though every other SG is a paid add-on. Never seen so many people so ready to hand over money to such a shady company. I'm boggled by it, as I just see SPM/ND holding their hand out for more money with every other SG. I hope their new rules are better than the old ones, as I couldn't play the game more than once...
ND is putting up pics of them at the gama trade show. I've posted in a few of their FB updates but I never get a response. I'm not rude only polite. Maybe if we all post on their latest FB post where their at the show it might get a response. Let's just do it politely.
Soda Pop Miniatures and CoolMiniOrNot announce the ending of the publishing relationship of Soda Pop Miniatures titles Super Dungeon Explore™ and Relic Knights™.
“We are happy with the cooperative effort with CoolMiniOrNot over the past 3 years as publishers of our titles Super Dungeon Explore™ and Relic Knights™”, said John Cadice, Creative Director of Ninja Division*. “We are now looking forward to self-publishing these titles and bringing great games to our fans everywhere!”
“As agreed with Soda Pop Miniatures, we will finish fulfilling all existing orders on these titles including those on the Relic Knights Kickstarter, and transfer full control and inventory to Soda Pop Miniatures in an orderly fashion in the coming weeks,” added Chern Ann Ng, Director at CoolMiniOrNot. “The team at CoolMiniOrNot has greatly enjoyed publishing these excellent titles. We wish Soda Pop Miniatures and Ninja Division all the best on their future plans.”
Please direct product inquiries for Super Dungeon Explore™ and Relic Knights™ to sales@ninjadivision.com.
Oh, because this is 'kind of new', here's a snippet from a comment from PB during the free for all going on;
We're sorry about the delay in delivering the rewards for this project, but it is coming, and soon. There is no question about whether we will deliver. If something were to happen that would cause us to be unable to deliver, we would, of course, offer refunds as Kickstarter's terms dictate. But that is not the case here; not even close. We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. Wave Two by the end of the year, hopefully well before.
So, I'm gonna stop you right there. "June/July" isn't what you've "always said". The last update was "June, maybe May". So that's back a month.
Second, "wave 2 by the end of the year" strikes me as gradually walking that goalpost back from "october", which was rather definitive before.
And hilarious, now that I think about it. By the time they get home from Gencon and recuperate from whatever con crud they've picked up and passed onto the warehouse crew, that's a mere 2 to 2.5 months after a time sucking black hole to wrap up at least 16 more molds. Even "end of the year" puts that at 4.5 months.
Seems awfully optimistic.
Let's just say that all snarky saccharine "I'm suuuure they'll make their taaaaarget!" is fading away to expect the next target to be September. Y'know, once the insanity of Gencon has died down.
... and they've wrapped up counting all the money from their next con exclusives and wave one.
Out of curiosity, is anyone else *NOT* seeing any trolling other than by the Palladium mod who keeps posting warnings in a very civil thread (at least now that Akashic has returned down under his bridge)? I used to say that the moderation on the Palladium boards was very moderate (pun intended) compared to the aggressiveness of various posters but frankly that has not been true for a few months. NMI keeps jumping in and handing out warnings for things that don't frankly seem to deserve them (like valid factual easily proven criticism).
It is kind of a ghetto with the last post prior to this kerfuffle with the crappy looking minis almost a full month prior. That should be a gauge of how much interest there is at this point beyond the palladium diehards. If they want to follow up the $1.4 mill KS with catering to the dozen regular Robotech posters then so be it... come out with the 1994 quality minis.
warboss wrote: Out of curiosity, is anyone else *NOT* seeing any trolling other than by the Palladium mod who keeps posting warnings in a very civil thread (at least now that Akashic has returned down under his bridge)? I used to say that the moderation on the Palladium boards was very moderate (pun intended) compared to the aggressiveness of various posters but frankly that has not been true for a few months. NMI keeps jumping in and handing out warnings for things that don't frankly seem to deserve them (like valid factual easily proven criticism).
I just got a private message from that douch warning me not to troll. Twice he modified my post. I notice he does come to defend akashic and hand out warnings to everyone else. I know there's a don't buy from Liam group on FB. Maybe they should add NMI.lol
NMI's reaction to people in that forum now has me thinking that Palladium Books might have crossed the threshold into some kind of Heaven's Gate cult level of fanaticism.
Swabby wrote: I just read that palladium thread. WTF?
NMI's reaction to people in that forum now has me thinking that Palladium Books might have crossed the threshold into some kind of Heaven's Gate cult level of fanaticism.
That's what I'm seeing too. I don't know if I'm going to support the next two eras. I have my macross books and lots of pieces I mean "miniatures" coming my way. The company and some of the fans and associates have turned me off from PB. Honestly if this project drowns PB and they have to close their doors I won't shed a tear. Even GW never engendered such negative emotion from me.
Cypher-xv wrote: I think the person who made this design is buddies with some bigwig at ND. I don't think this person has played any tabletop game ever. How in the $%#& could such a piss poor model with limited poses be shown to us and be told the paint will cover up the imperfections.
ND only get paid for their work, the actual cost of production is paid by Palladium. The original sculpts were rejected based on production costs and were redesigned under instructions from Palladium to be able to be done much cheaper.
Swabby wrote: I just read that palladium thread. WTF?
NMI's reaction to people in that forum now has me thinking that Palladium Books might have crossed the threshold into some kind of Heaven's Gate cult level of fanaticism.
That's what I'm seeing too. I don't know if I'm going to support the next two eras. I have my macross books and lots of pieces I mean "miniatures" coming my way. The company and some of the fans and associates have turned me off from PB. Honestly if this project drowns PB and they have to close their doors I won't shed a tear. Even GW never engendered such negative emotion from me.
With the utmost of respect to you, earned largely through this thread of awesome in the last (how long has it been? 5 or so years now, right?) years, you're fething insane if you support the next clusterfeth of a kickstarter from these bull gaking arseclowns.
I was actually having similar thoughts as I was catching up on the last 5 or so pages. I wonder if this KS might bring PB down, and would it, in a sense, be worth my several hundred bucks if it were to happen?
I probably would never ever ever ever back another KS from Palladium. Planets would have to get into some super magical COSMIC alignment before that would happen again.
Sining wrote: I probably would never ever ever ever back another KS from Palladium. Planets would have to get into some super magical COSMIC alignment before that would happen again.
Thankfully I'm only in for 1 battlecry
Oh, how I wish that were so. Even a showdown, and I'd be "Meh, lesson learned".
I got drunk on the fumes of the Kickstarter, and living in Aus, figured getting boxes in anticipation of other people wanting them, went double Reckless (with addons).
You know what they say about payback? Regret's a bigger B.
Cypher-xv wrote: That's what I'm seeing too. I don't know if I'm going to support the next two eras. I have my macross books and lots of pieces I mean "miniatures" coming my way. The company and some of the fans and associates have turned me off from PB. Honestly if this project drowns PB and they have to close their doors I won't shed a tear. Even GW never engendered such negative emotion from me.
This! I really am impatient to get the backer kits and all my stuff so I have no reason to deal with these clowns ever again.
Even professionally they hurt to look at, if they were a supplier I had to manage I would recommend resourcing and drop them even before finding a new supplier.
They really are that bad.
Cypher-xv wrote: I think the person who made this design is buddies with some bigwig at ND. I don't think this person has played any tabletop game ever. How in the $%#& could such a piss poor model with limited poses be shown to us and be told the paint will cover up the imperfections.
ND only get paid for their work, the actual cost of production is paid by Palladium. The original sculpts were rejected based on production costs and were redesigned under instructions from Palladium to be able to be done much cheaper.
Swabby wrote: I just read that palladium thread. WTF?
NMI's reaction to people in that forum now has me thinking that Palladium Books might have crossed the threshold into some kind of Heaven's Gate cult level of fanaticism.
That's what I'm seeing too. I don't know if I'm going to support the next two eras. I have my macross books and lots of pieces I mean "miniatures" coming my way. The company and some of the fans and associates have turned me off from PB. Honestly if this project drowns PB and they have to close their doors I won't shed a tear. Even GW never engendered such negative emotion from me.
With the utmost of respect to you, earned largely through this thread of awesome in the last (how long has it been? 5 or so years now, right?) years, you're fething insane if you support the next clusterfeth of a kickstarter from these bull gaking arseclowns.
I was actually having similar thoughts as I was catching up on the last 5 or so pages. I wonder if this KS might bring PB down, and would it, in a sense, be worth my several hundred bucks if it were to happen?
God the fandom is what's driving me away. Will I ever support PB or ND? Maybe not, but I don't like to say never. After all I've seen the same with some 40k fans.
For the next update it will be Kevin blaming GW for making some of the best miniatures in the world and that because of GW we are at fault for having such high expectations.
Good point; it rarely pays to deal in absolutes. If I ever did back a PB Kickstarter for the later generations (mighty big IF) I can say it wouldn't be as large of an investment as I have in the current one.
Personally, I just plain want my money back at this point. I'd rather invest in a game that already exists and keeps to a regular release schedule (such as Infinity) than wait forever for this. Not only am I out of luck on the money and time fronts (this was supposed to be a Christmas gift from my wife) but the local interest in the game is pretty much dead too. Not that I'd want to promote this game any more any way. Yeah, I'm butthurt here.
Each and every "update" that PB puts out only serves to demonstrate that they will not be able to deliver on time. Ooh! A render you're revising! Wow! A pre-production mini! None of these things are convincing me that they are getting any closer to the final product. There are no sprues of parts to show off. There is no printing of the rulebook to tease us with. Their last update before the pictures of the billion-part mecha was a blast marker? Pathetic.
This is made even worse by their claims during the KS that everything was just awaiting approval from Harmony Gold. After that, straight to China for production! Well, turns out that that claim was just a big a pile of bull .
Angryrant over. Who wants to take bets on which of the KS projects I backed will deliver first? Robotech or DreadBall Xtreme?
@Etna, feel the same with regards money back. All enthusiasm gone, and frankly skepticism I'll make my money back on the secondary market. Being in Aus makes shipping problematic, and a national population of under 30Mil means it won't take many others dumping stock to glut the market.
As for RRT vs Dreadball, deliver first? If to completion, I'd wager significantly on Dreadball. To first send, I'd still put the odds in Mantic's court, but I wouldn't bet the farm.
I'm curious as to how many folks would be interested in a refund if they could get it. Maybe collectively we could raise enough of a stink to get our money back.
jacobus wrote: I'm curious as to how many folks would be interested in a refund if they could get it. Maybe collectively we could raise enough of a stink to get our money back.
Would you take 90%, which I've seen offered by other campaigns?
While I'm not at that point yet, it does make me appreciate moreso those campaigns that have gone as far as offering to make things right for backers with such significant desire to abandon the project, cut their losses and run.
This is from the same guy that started the I love PB business practice. Talk about a 180.
I'm a new player to Palladium but I've played a lot of systems and I came back to you guys 15 years later because of your content. I've got to say though, its been hard getting the system. If you are looking to make this a game that is easier for new players to adapt to without needing to change the rules I hope that this helps, I've given it a lot of consideration.
Rules:
I can't say honestly. I havent play tested enough to know how things are handled but a "MDC attacks to SDC creatures incapacitate them or leave them in dire need of cybernetics pending death instead of just INSTANTLY killing them" might be a good idea to make the game look a little more appealing. I know I'm not fond of my character being instantly killed because of an ugly situation or another player carelessly lobbing around MDC grenades.
Organization:
You won't like hearing this but this is where Palladium falls down (Rifts at least), you have all this AWESOME mindblowing content and then this really intimidating format. Here are a few things that will make games run faster and character creation less of a choir.
1. Equipment/Weapons/Armor tables. (I'll even do them up for you no charge if you just give me the information)
One table for weapons, another for armor, another for miscellaneous equipment; make sure the player can see the price, the category (ie: Heavy Energy Weapon), the damage, etc.
2. Layout.
2.a: I feel like you could just include the "Quick Reference" in the index and save yourself a little room.
2.b: Following your opening page throw in a lexicon; I should know what a D-BEE is before page 273 (or whatever it was). I had no idea what I was reading about a lot of the time when I first started reading the setting information.
2.c: Character creation cheat sheet. You see these as a trademark of White-Wolf books and they're a godsend for teaching new players. This is a simple one page summery that will help players "make the character" they're thinking off without needing to sift through pages and pages of information. For most players its enough to know Principled means "A selfless person who lives by a strict moral code," and Scrupulous means "A person with a good heart who doesn't play by the rules." And the same is doubly true for O.C.C's. Borg: A full conversion cyborg and Shifter: A Mage who uses their power to control rifts and summon monsters is way easier to pick between than four pages of information. Its also a really easy way to have SDC and HP and PPE and everything else all in one place in an EASY to understand way that is intuitive.
2.d: Open EXACTLY as you have, with what a role playing game is, that's beautifully written, then write a few pages on the setting, then put the character creation rules first, then continue with the REST of the setting information. A new player can read your write up about what "Rifts is" and think "oh thats so awesome!!! I'm going to play a Native American who worships a trickster spirit!" and then later he's going to be concerned with exactly what tribe he or she is in. So the location write ups are more like a bonus sugar on top for storytellers and more experienced players to be able to say to the new guy "You know what, that sounds like X" to me... and then flip through too that page. Having to flip past it on the way to "your character" again, is a bit intimidating and makes the player feel like "Do I have to know all of this?!?"
3. Classify, Classify, Classify; You have all these awesome technical terms that make RPing great but I spent an hour and a half going back and forth trying to find out what is considered "light armor" and I'm not going to lie. It sucked. Simply having "requires: Jet Packs" somewhere in the stats really helps new guys know "Oh I need a jet pack proficiency" or "These might be BIG but they're still clearly power armor." I think this is where Palladium falls down, people have a huge list of reasons that other games are better but honestly I think if more players could just pick it up and GO than it wouldnt be so intimidating.
4. Base R.C.C's; give humans an official R.C.C entry in the corebook and maybe add in a couple of extra low power non MDC R.C.C's that can select O.C.C's, even if they're just flavor text. It might not seem important but again, it would just make things less confusing and its a nice stepping stone into just how vast Rifts is.
5. New Composition Books; this is probably going to be the most controversial suggestion yet but I am trying to be honest with you guys because I know what a great company you are and I am sure that this will be howled at by the roar of devoted fans but... Release a book that compiled (at least a lot) of cool new O.C.C's, thats all it has to do. Maybe you could do what The Star Wars Saga edition did and release a book for each Category of OCC. Its just you guys have SO much awesome content and I have 25 books sitting here and I'll be honest... its a mess. I cant remember where each thing is half the time, I have to go back and forth. There is just so much and its all over the place! The same can be said for equipment, especially power armor and giant robots.
It would be nice to have a single book that had a kickass picture of a sample OCC and the write up, with each entry ending with something like:
Quote:
"Titan Juicers" are popular with X's (R.C.C) see Rifts Book X, for more information Titan Juicers and Juicer culture see Rifts book X.
That way dedicated players can have his rules (and they're easy to locate) and then when he finds his "hit" character (a lot of times we have hit and miss characters) they (PC or Storyteller) can track down Rifts book X and read all about the setting and the kind of things he needs to know about that kind of character so he can incorporate it into his game.
The same is true about power armor, giant robots, we already kind of see this with a couple of the Magic books youve already released... and since most of it is just copy and pasting and minor edits it couldnt be that expensive and that much right? I honestly, have no idea so forgive the ignorance if it is.
I know that a lot of old players who paid for the books are going to HATE this idea because they've already spent so much money on what they have but from a "realist" point of view people are only playing pen and paper because of the customization that they have for their characters and what they can do and RCC's and OCC's are were a lot of those ideas come from for a lot of players and honestly, what is easier to bring to a game session two books or seven? I am pretty sure most of us would happily buy them just as reference ideas and heck maybe you could even throw in two new "items of interest" be they OCC's, RCC's, vehicles, power armor or bots in each book? That alone would...
Well you get the idea.
I hope that these ideas will help Palladium go into the future and reach newer younger players. Right now the biggest problem Palladium has is the layout and the fact that it has SO many "inspiring" things scattered through so many different places that most of it will probably never actually be used. (Which is a real shame.)
Forar wrote: Would you take 90%, which I've seen offered by other campaigns?
While I'm not at that point yet, it does make me appreciate moreso those campaigns that have gone as far as offering to make things right for backers with such significant desire to abandon the project, cut their losses and run.
I'm totally cool with 90%, to be honest, since I think Palladium is going to screw all of us and leave us with a) an unusable product or b) absolutely nothing. I'm thinking about starting a Facebook group for those of us who are frustrated with this Kickstarter. Anyone who's interested in helping out, feel free to send me a PM.
This would not be dedicated to moaning and complaining, but rather finding a constructive and effective strategy to use our collective displeasure to get refunds for this project.
I don't think it will work, but I wish you the best with it. I posted right on their facebook that it was shameful when they refused your money back, and everyone pretty much just abandoned that update. Nothing ever said from PB. Pretty damn pitiful...
Well if anyone is interested in selling let me know what you are wanting to sell and how much you are asking. I will post it on the facebook page where we have many people who were not able to get in that are interested in getting something.
jacobus wrote: I'm curious as to how many folks would be interested in a refund if they could get it. Maybe collectively we could raise enough of a stink to get our money back.
One of the reasons i posted the BBB info on the KS itself.
Sure PB is under no obligation to respond to a BBB complaint, but AGs do pay attention to that sort of stuff.. .and if 5 percent filed a complaint- that would get noticed
PallyDrone wrote: I'm not a mini's guy, just somebody who is enjoying the soap opera of the Robotech Kickstarter fiasco.
Anyone here going to do a Youtube unboxing and review when (ahem or if) you get your first shipment?
and
Amazon reviews...I can't wait to read some of them.
The Kickstarter commentary is brutally enjoyable.
The sad thing is your not the only one. I didn't sign up for this. Entertaining or not. That's what I get for loving Kawamorri's valkyrie designs. It's being discussed on macross world, warseer, FB and some other forums I can't remember. One guy likens the mayhem to a train wreck waiting to happen. Guess what, it just crashed spectacularly. Talk about a perfect storm of incredibly bad pr and project handling.
Forar wrote: Hey guys, want to hear something cheery I just thought of?
That wave two at "the end of the year" (let's be real, probably 2015)?
... might hit Chinese New Year again.
Yes, the "might" here is both sarcastic and blindingly naive. Just sharing a little Thursday morning facepalm!
I was just talking about that very thing in PM a couple of days ago. You know we're going to be right on the money with that one.
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Etna's Vassal wrote: Personally, I just plain want my money back at this point. I'd rather invest in a game that already exists and keeps to a regular release schedule (such as Infinity) than wait forever for this. Not only am I out of luck on the money and time fronts (this was supposed to be a Christmas gift from my wife) but the local interest in the game is pretty much dead too. Not that I'd want to promote this game any more any way. Yeah, I'm butthurt here.
Each and every "update" that PB puts out only serves to demonstrate that they will not be able to deliver on time. Ooh! A render you're revising! Wow! A pre-production mini! None of these things are convincing me that they are getting any closer to the final product. There are no sprues of parts to show off. There is no printing of the rulebook to tease us with. Their last update before the pictures of the billion-part mecha was a blast marker? Pathetic.
This is made even worse by their claims during the KS that everything was just awaiting approval from Harmony Gold. After that, straight to China for production! Well, turns out that that claim was just a big a pile of bull .
Angryrant over. Who wants to take bets on which of the KS projects I backed will deliver first? Robotech or DreadBall Xtreme?
You'll get DBX's first wave on time. Some of it will be mispacked, miscast or missing though. It will take at least a year to get the subsequent waves and then all of the subsequent mispacks, miscasts and missings.
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jacobus wrote: I'm curious as to how many folks would be interested in a refund if they could get it. Maybe collectively we could raise enough of a stink to get our money back.
PallyDrone wrote: I'm not a mini's guy, just somebody who is enjoying the soap opera of the Robotech Kickstarter fiasco.
Anyone here going to do a Youtube unboxing and review when (ahem or if) you get your first shipment?
and
Amazon reviews...I can't wait to read some of them.
The Kickstarter commentary is brutally enjoyable.
The sad thing is your not the only one. I didn't sign up for this. Entertaining or not. That's what I get for loving Kawamorri's valkyrie designs. It's being discussed on macross world, warseer, FB and some other forums I can't remember. One guy likens the mayhem to a train wreck waiting to happen. Guess what, it just crashed spectacularly. Talk about a perfect storm of incredibly bad pr and project handling.
Just saw GAMA pix.
Hell those are more than gaps, more like gapes. Yeah I know some folks like looking at gapes, but sheesh. It's not just that one model either.
Paint will surely cover those gaps...yeah...maybe if you dip them in latex house paint a couple times. Just saying,
Again...Palladium seems to be a big fan of the Con exclusive with the Mac unveiling.
Will folks be really mad if folks at Gen Con or walking off the street get the game before backers?
People were extremely frustrated with max and Miriya.
Understandable a stance as it might be for a business to take, I think "launching at gencon" while the backer boxes are still on a ship or in a warehouse would lead to rioting.
But I can already see the update. "Palladium books, at great expense, has procured a couple hundred core boxes for sale at Gencon. Totally not because we'll be getting the max amount of money per box we'll ever see and know con attendees spend money like they breathe, but because we're just do dedicated to you. The fans. Except backers who are also fans. Feth those guys and gals.
Forar wrote: People were extremely frustrated with max and Miriya.
Understandable a stance as it might be for a business to take, I think "launching at gencon" while the backer boxes are still on a ship or in a warehouse would lead to rioting.
But I can already see the update. "Palladium books, at great expense, has procured a couple hundred core boxes for sale at Gencon. Totally not because we'll be getting the max amount of money per box we'll ever see and know con attendees spend money like they breathe, but because we're just do dedicated to you. The fans. Except backers who are also fans. Feth those guys and gals.
See you at Gencon and keep gaming!"
You know it's gonna happen. They're going to have, like you said 100 boxes either airmailed or brought with them from the warehouse (if they just arrived) and handed out with much fanfare and hype. A triumph in their own minds.
Forar wrote: People were extremely frustrated with max and Miriya.
Understandable a stance as it might be for a business to take, I think "launching at gencon" while the backer boxes are still on a ship or in a warehouse would lead to rioting.
But I can already see the update. "Palladium books, at great expense, has procured a couple hundred core boxes for sale at Gencon. Totally not because we'll be getting the max amount of money per box we'll ever see and know con attendees spend money like they breathe, but because we're just do dedicated to you. The fans. Except backers who are also fans. Feth those guys and gals.
See you at Gencon and keep gaming!"
I am kinda expecting this very thing to happen.
I had done advanced orders or subscriptions and noticed most retailers make the mistake of treating those who have already paid as a sale already done so they need to focus on the new sales and give their stores or events preference by shipping to them first.
Things are sufficiently forgotten about the contract of people nice enough to give their money early should receive some agreed perks for doing so.
The price break from the kickstarter is looking less and less like a deal when the time of receiving the models is increasingly more important to me (and I can review them prior to buying which is not to be underestimated).
I am now sufficiently jaded that in most cases that this may be my last Kickstarter I would back and just say "See you when you have a completed product at retail.".
I am tired of letting people play with my money and feel they can change the agreement at any time (what is with this world of "entitlement" we are living in anyway??)
Mike1975 wrote: Well if anyone is interested in selling let me know what you are wanting to sell and how much you are asking. I will post it on the facebook page where we have many people who were not able to get in that are interested in getting something.
Mike_Arnold_1975@hotmail.com
I hate dealing with anything like that online plus my FLGS has already stated they'd buy mine from me on arrival.
Wow...the Tomahawk, my favorite destroid has a gap on it's back I can fit my thumbnail in.
And these mini's are 'cleaned up' from the guys at the factory.
Those seems run from barely there to grand canyon. The Tomahawk ... you can fit a quarter into the gap along its back. The gnerl ... a god-awful seem running straight down the middle (you are stuck staring at it). A seem down the missile pod. Sure, but don't make it look like the damn malfunctioned (with that gap have smoke coming from it and you have some battle damage...then use the missiles). The final figs of the sprue need to be much better; especially with the piece count we are already looking at.
Also, the guy on Mike's facebook page that is viciously defending these minis to the point of attacking peoples' work ethics and modeling ability is pissing me off. I put a lot of work into each of my minis and go through all the motions. Some of these Robotech figures have to be better down the road...no questions. But to say that I am just being lazy (and with what 14-16 pieces, this will already be a chore for a mass-battle game) or that I just don't know what I am doing, that is unacceptable to me and is white knighting at its finest (at least in my limited experience).
Those GAMA pics look a lot like the prototypes they had back at GAMA 2013 and Gencon (not all of them, these are either primed or a darker material than I recall some of the GC stuff being), but they might not necessarily be representative of the actual figures as mass produced (good or bad).
Yes, yes, giving them the benefit of the doubt seems strange here to me too, but it's worth noting that the recent GAMA pics, best I can tell and from what the article reads, might not actually mean anything other than "we've had sculptors totally making some hot prototypes".
Which is a frustrating place to be; they'll laud the quality and how awesome and exciting and happy everyone is for them, but gloss over any critique with "oh, but that'll be fixed in production".
Ironwill13791 wrote: Those seems run from barely there to grand canyon. The Tomahawk ... you can fit a quarter into the gap along its back. The gnerl ... a god-awful seem running straight down the middle (you are stuck staring at it). A seem down the missile pod. Sure, but don't make it look like the damn malfunctioned (with that gap have smoke coming from it and you have some battle damage...then use the missiles). The final figs of the sprue need to be much better; especially with the piece count we are already looking at.
Also, the guy on Mike's facebook page that is viciously defending these minis to the point of attacking peoples' work ethics and modeling ability is pissing me off. I put a lot of work into each of my minis and go through all the motions. Some of these Robotech figures have to be better down the road...no questions. But to say that I am just being lazy (and with what 14-16 pieces, this will already be a chore for a mass-battle game) or that I just don't know what I am doing, that is unacceptable to me and is white knighting at its finest (at least in my limited experience).
Who's this Mike you speak of? Remember I'm not even a wannabe...
Also, my girlfriend, who has been wondering why I'm so interested in all the Robotech drama and I stupidly tried to explain to her the in's and outs of the current net fiasco drama storm.
She was immediately bored...then said something I found incredibly funny...
In a normal tone, deadpan, with no inflection, "Well it appears Palladium has a crack problem."
Yeah...yeah...a crack problem. That explains it.
They've been hitting that pipe too hard.
I have this image of a cracked out Kevin S. decked out in Palladium gang colors grabbing his junk and saying, "Yeah bitches, I got yer seams right here!" He then flashes some gold rings and a diamond encrusted pendant that says "GLITTERYBOY!" and starts throwing hundred dollar bills in the air as ghetto hunnies start Robo-twerkin'.
Hey Palladium is from Detroit, the home of ICP, Eminem and Kid Rock.
Ironwill13791 wrote: Those seems run from barely there to grand canyon. The Tomahawk ... you can fit a quarter into the gap along its back. The gnerl ... a god-awful seem running straight down the middle (you are stuck staring at it). A seem down the missile pod. Sure, but don't make it look like the damn malfunctioned (with that gap have smoke coming from it and you have some battle damage...then use the missiles). The final figs of the sprue need to be much better; especially with the piece count we are already looking at.
Also, the guy on Mike's facebook page that is viciously defending these minis to the point of attacking peoples' work ethics and modeling ability is pissing me off. I put a lot of work into each of my minis and go through all the motions. Some of these Robotech figures have to be better down the road...no questions. But to say that I am just being lazy (and with what 14-16 pieces, this will already be a chore for a mass-battle game) or that I just don't know what I am doing, that is unacceptable to me and is white knighting at its finest (at least in my limited experience).
Who's this Mike you speak of? Remember I'm not even a wannabe...
Also, my girlfriend, who has been wondering why I'm so interested in all the Robotech drama and I stupidly tried to explain to her the in's and outs of the current net fiasco drama storm.
She was immediately bored...then said something I found incredibly funny...
In a normal tone, deadpan, with no inflection, "Well it appears Palladium has a crack problem."
Yeah...yeah...a crack problem. That explains it.
They've been hitting that pipe too hard.
I have this image of a cracked out Kevin S. decked out in Palladium gang colors grabbing his junk and saying, "Yeah bitches, I got yer seams right here!" He then flashes some gold rings and a diamond encrusted pendant that says "GLITTERYBOY!" and starts throwing hundred dollar bills in the air as ghetto hunnies start Robo-twerkin'.
Hey Palladium is from Detroit, the home of ICP, Eminem and Kid Rock.
Mike1975. He has a Robotech RPG Tactics facebook page that he administrates.
The pix are mostly recycled content and the updates never have much to say?
OH SNAP!
Eh, when it's something pertinent I try to copy/paste it over, but it's been months since they were much more than "got 3d printed prototype pieces in, they look great, love them, here's 4 photos".
Alpharius wrote: This thread always seems to lack The Pics and the Official Updates.
Why is that?
Just curious!
I can't speak for anyone else but I just don't have the enthusiasm to go through with the effort for the project for a long while now. While the sky isn't falling (yet) as we technically don't have the final products shown in ABS plastic, it's been a 8 month long string of fails IMO since the KS ended that has largely eroded the good will the KS campaign generated. Rules? Haven't seen an official update since June-ish. Minis? Ugly seams across most of them. Delivery date? Sliding back faster than we move forward. Promotion? Contests that were a day late (6 months) and a dollar short (1 winner instead of multiples). Communication? Well, at least it's regular now unlike the first 6 months but the content of that communication (see above) isn't rosey. Maybe things will be fine and the rules, minis, and support won't suck when it comes out at some later date likely in the fall (for wave 1... Wave 2 will likely be pushed to 2015)... but I'm just holding my breath nor will I be a source of free promotion for it in the meantime like before.
So the Spartan looks crap, we knew that.
Tomahawk looks kinda OK from the front, except for the missile pod covers (leg split seams aren't good, but aren't horrible). But the upper rear torso (that place most players will be staring at) seam is pretty bad.
Defender looked decent, but seemed blurry, so couldn't see details, let alone seams.
Phalanx, noticeable but not too bad seams on the legs, bad seam up the front of the torso.
Phalanx Experimantal, Seams on the legs are worse, seams on the torso are horrible, as are the ones on the ordnance packs are worse, until you see the one on the back.
The Gnerl is OMG craptastic "we just split the 3D model in down the middle vertically".
Most of the other Zentradi don't look bad, but we don't get closeups of those.
Monster looks OK, noticeable but not bad leg seams, but again, no closeup.
So the only ones that looked OK (Defender, non Gnerl Zents, Monster) were the ones that weren't given close examination.
Alpharius wrote: This thread always seems to lack The Pics and the Official Updates.
Why is that?
Just curious!
I can't speak for anyone else but I just don't have the enthusiasm to go through with the effort for the project for a long while now. While the sky isn't falling (yet) as we technically don't have the final products shown in ABS plastic, it's been a 8 month long string of fails IMO since the KS ended that has largely eroded the good will the KS campaign generated. Rules? Haven't seen an official update since June-ish. Minis? Ugly seams across most of them. Delivery date? Sliding back faster than we move forward. Promotion? Contests that were a day late (6 months) and a dollar short (1 winner instead of multiples). Communication? Well, at least it's regular now unlike the first 6 months but the content of that communication (see above) isn't rosey. Maybe things will be fine and the rules, minis, and support won't suck when it comes out at some later date likely in the fall (for wave 1... Wave 2 will likely be pushed to 2015)... but I'm just holding my breath nor will I be a source of free promotion for it in the meantime like before.
That's pretty much what I thought was the driving force behind the lack of pics and 'Official Update CopyPastas'.
Totally understandable, too.
I just took a quick look at that YouTube video but... the models didn't look that bad to me. Am I just not seeing something and/or paying enough attention?
There are several gaps on every model. When you figure that this game is designed to be a mass combat, and not a skirmish level game, it makes things rather time prohibitive when you think about assembly and prep time. Especially if you're a serious miniatures painter/modeller, which I consider myself to be (and you may be too- I don't mean to sound snippy or disrespectful). All of these models have part counts in the teens, which again, is fine if you''re buidling five-ten a side, but not thirty-forty. Those gaps will require putty and filing to fill in, and when you think about that for a full army, that's just ridiculous. Not to mention pulling all of those parts off the sprues, cleaning them up, and assembling the models.
The other issue is that Palladium has responded to all feedback, even polite feedback, not with "we appreciate your concern, we'll look into it", but with " here's how you're wrong, don't sweat it." Considering that some folks have dumped a grand or two into this project, they should be a little more customer oriented.
jacobus wrote: The other issue is that Palladium has responded to all feedback, even polite feedback, not with "we appreciate your concern, we'll look into it", but with " here's how you're wrong, don't sweat it." Considering that some folks have dumped a grand or two into this project, they should be a little more customer oriented.
And usually, "You'll love it, we know you will!" style commentary.
As a non-American, could that be considered a verbal guarantee, of sorts?
Because yeah, I'm pretty sure I won't love it. Else I wouldn't have asked for a refund. Heck, given possibe cashflow problems, I even offered to allow them to delay payment process until after it ships retail. But they didn't even read my request, because it was just a standard cut-n-paste boiler-plate rejection letter, that addressed concerns I didn't have (the delays) and not the ones I did (inability to build at that scale).
If they do ship it, they'll be spending about a third of what I pledged, on shipping (Australia is really far away). What's the procedure in US retail if they're unable to deliver? I've never bounced a package back before.
Ironwill13791 wrote: Those seems run from barely there to grand canyon. The Tomahawk ... you can fit a quarter into the gap along its back. The gnerl ... a god-awful seem running straight down the middle (you are stuck staring at it). A seem down the missile pod. Sure, but don't make it look like the damn malfunctioned (with that gap have smoke coming from it and you have some battle damage...then use the missiles). The final figs of the sprue need to be much better; especially with the piece count we are already looking at.
Also, the guy on Mike's facebook page that is viciously defending these minis to the point of attacking peoples' work ethics and modeling ability is pissing me off. I put a lot of work into each of my minis and go through all the motions. Some of these Robotech figures have to be better down the road...no questions. But to say that I am just being lazy (and with what 14-16 pieces, this will already be a chore for a mass-battle game) or that I just don't know what I am doing, that is unacceptable to me and is white knighting at its finest (at least in my limited experience).
Yeah, there are a couple tools on that FB page who tell you how stupid you are for voicing the problems with the miniatures we've seen.
Also, it shows exactly how cheaply they've decided to produce these by the fact that the gun barrels on the Tomahawk and Defender are both solid. Thanks ND for using 1990s technology today!! I think GW has been making 2 piece, bored out weapons for 7-10 years now? Somewhere close to that.
I'm not sure even paintjobs can help some of the joins/seams on a lot of those models shown. I shouldn't have to green stuff/fill EVERY model in the base game...
I suppose we'll have to wait for production plastics for the final proclamation, but as these are what the final models were cut off of, I don't hold out a lot of hope!
1) I think so. Only way they don't is if PB puts up a new update today/tomorrow in time to redirect people to a new place to talk. Minor correction: 1000 bitches and glorious white knights.
2) Probably not. There are instances of people literally taking the money and running. These might not be "high quality" figures, with poorly designed pieces, misplaced seams and gaps you could fly the SDF-1 through, but considering what we paid, no, we're not nearly there. It's a shame, and wasted potential, and may do outright damage to PB, ND, HG and the Robotech brand, but while I would say we're seeing "bad" things here, definitely not the worst.
3) Of course. Some will be happy, some will complain, which manages to direct the community, I don't know.
4) "Not for the faint of heart, beginners need not apply."
5) I have. Even restricting myself to non-hyperbolic facts, it's generally not good. The greatest praise I can usually level is "I enjoy the settings, the mechanics are terrible".
6) Not Repeatable (on) Dakka.
7) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Maybe. Depends on whether or not the cost of air-freighting a crate or three would be offset by their projected sales at full MSRP.
8) Fury and sound, signifying nothing. Cranky backers, lots of apologies and explanations why that was the only way it could happen.
Some YF-4's and promo figures tucked in my box would go a long way to assuage some of my frustrations here, but I suspect we're only at the middle of this running gag. If that.
If it breaks 1k...that's some crazy pissed off people.
No attention is being paid at all apparently by Palladium as it rages out of control.
I think it's funny that in the weekly updates Kevin encourages folks to check out the Kickstarter Comments. For the unprepared it must be like dropping a toddler off at a Turkish prison riot or a shark feeding frenzy..
PallyDrone wrote: If it breaks 1k...that's some crazy pissed off people.
No attention is being paid at all apparently by Palladium as it rages out of control.
I think it's funny that in the weekly updates Kevin encourages folks to check out the Kickstarter Comments. For the unprepared it must be like dropping a toddler off at a Turkish prison riot or a shark feeding frenzy..
Don't you know? It hath been proclaimed by Grand White Knights that all soon to be 1000 negative comments are from the same 20-30 malcontents.
Also Palladium is paying attention as they chose to feed a troll instead of addressing the more eloquently and reasonably posted concerns.
Sorry. I can't handle your FB group anymore. While you have a handful of useful posting people there, it is greatly outweighed by idiots whose opinion of themselves outweighs their actual opinions.
The latest display of intellect was to say that the seam on the gnerl, which I think could be rather bad, was going to be a non-issue, as it was smaller than his manhood. So not a problem...
You appear to have attracted all the white knights, and dissent is met with disdain and scorn. It is good that Dakka actually has a much better balance of opinions and civil discussion...
I think it's cause there's a post that's devolved to turning RT into a CW show were Gloval and Rick...
Anyways Rick's character was renamed rimmer. So make of it what you will. The post asks the same questions about PB handling of RRT just like the post above that Forar answered.
Anthony Kopah is the guy that originally set me off. But you know we are only the dissatisfied minority, so it doesn't matter what we think because we are only whining. Alex Clarke is effing disgusting with his use of vulgarity and his crass attitude. What takes the cake with me is Mr. Kopah's comments "Casual gamers can stay with HeroClix. I want something with some depth that I can build myself. Wargaming should be a hobby, not a board game." and "X-wing exists for people that don't want to put any effort into their miniatures. Hell, fantasy flight even slops the paint on for you.
Even Games Workshop, with 30 years of experience, doesn't produce minis that only require "assembly and spray paint".". I feel like leaving the group as now the douches are coming out in full.
Yeah, Anthony Kopah is a huge dbag. There's something wrong with people who feel the need to point how much more manly their playing with toy soldiers/planes/robots is than everyone else
stanman wrote: I love Wayne's bit of it's so small you can't even notice the defects.
Spoiler:
That picture makes me both happy and sad at the same time. Happy for Paulson and sad for myself.
I'm very happy for Paulson because he does make some awesome miniatures and he's getting good karma for the way PB treated him. This project has brought lots of positive attention to his line. I'm looking forward to getting his minis so I can have crossover fights with the RRT stuff.
I was sad for myself too at first but once I saw the gama video and saw that PB was dead set on making models and not miniatures, I figured oh well. I don't know how strong the models will be but I'll still try and build a few because that's all I might be able to get done. I might have more Paulson minis built and painted. If PB wants to appeal to the scale modeler market and not the miniatures one then that's on PB if they fail.
If anyone wants to post a link to that pic on the robotech KS feel free to. While I thankfully didn't back the project, I also can't comment. I had been waiting on it to hit the retail shelves so I could see it first hand before buying any, but due to the way Palladium has been treating their backers I think I'll be avoiding it altogether at this point.
Sining wrote: Yeah, Anthony Kopah is a huge dbag. There's something wrong with people who feel the need to point how much more manly their playing with toy soldiers/planes/robots is than everyone else
QFT. Just because you "ain't worried" about the issues cause they will be easy fixes (cough[MOD EDIT - No filter 'workarounds, please. Thanks - Alpharius]cough) doesn't mean you get to insult me and kick my out of wargaming. The way he hobbies doesn't mean diddly to me, and he can go play with Alex's gnerl for all I care. That'll show us your manliness.
Like I have said, I put my fair share of time into this hobby. I try like hell to make my models look the best that I can based on my current circumstances (some times I have a lot more time than others and that shows). If, in final production, the "amateur-level" results are like that (with the current piece counts), then they will be effectively doubling the amount of time each mini takes for me. This makes me not want the product. No, this doesn't mean I should "go play x-wing" or "stay with heroclix". I would say most of the time I am a casual gamer. I play games for fun and model/paint to relax. But I don't feel like taking a month to finish 1 squadron, not with a potential full army still left to do. Clip, clean, glue, paint, glue more, paint more, etc., matte coat.
@Paulson- That is one mighty fine mech right there, and I do love mechs.
I looked over a bunch of the KS comments and there's always gotta be some guy spouting off about "the limitations of 3d printing" which is always a complete load of BS. The prototype pieces Palladum has shown are definitely 3d printed, but so is my model and you don't see all sorts of build lines and rough surfaces. What sets them apart is that Palladium's model is a cheap low resolution print where I use a much higher resolution printer for mine. (There's about a $300 price difference between those print qualities).
It pisses me off when some un-informed yahoo has to cite "limits of printing" like a professional when they know nothing about the process. You can print amazing levels of detail on a piece, the technology may have had limits back 4-5 years ago but nowdays the only "limit" on detail is determined by how much you want to invest in your prints.
Sorry for the rant it just bugs me and particularly when it's being used as an excuse to defend a low end $50 print, you get what you pay for. A cheap Shapeways grade print means a cheap crappy looking model. Hopefully the actual plastics will look much better.
The mecha front model that's shown required literally 5 minutes to clean up and assemble, all I did was do a very quick pass over it with a toothbrush to remove a trace amount of flash, trim off the sprue contact points and it was done. It's not even primed and there were no gaps that needed to be filled, what you see is the actual cast material. Had I stayed on the Robotech project I would have aimed to make a product of similar quality for them, but what can you do?
You also have a similar situation when it comes to molding for plastics, you can do it on the cheap or you can opt for slide core tech but that's determined by how much you want to invest and the final product reflects that as well.
I think their showing at Gama was pretty sad, it's the premier event for the industry and they brought stuff that look like it was an ebay second hand find and built by a ten year old. They seriously brought that to show off to all their industry peers? No way in hell it'd happen like that with any of my stuff, ugh.
I looked over a bunch of the KS comments and there's always gotta be some guy spouting off about "the limitations of 3d printing" which is always a complete load of BS. The prototype pieces Palladum has shown are definitely 3d printed, but so is my model and you don't see all sorts of build lines and rough surfaces. What sets them apart is that Palladium's model is a cheap low resolution print where I use a much higher resolution printer for mine. (There's about a $300 price difference between those print qualities).
It pisses me off when some un-informed yahoo has to cite "limits of printing" like a professional when they know nothing about the process. You can print amazing levels of detail on a piece, the technology may have had limits back 4-5 years ago but nowdays the only "limit" on detail is determined by how much you want to invest in your prints.
Sorry for the rant it just bugs me and particularly when it's being used as an excuse to defend a low end $50 print, you get what you pay for cheap Shapeways prints means a cheap crappy looking model. Hopefully the actual plastics will look much better.
The mecha front model that's shown required literally 5 minutes to clean up and assemble, all I did was do a very quick pass over it with a toothbrush to remove a trace amount of flash, trim off the sprue contact points and it was done. It's not even primed and there were no gaps that needed to be filled, what you see is the actual cast material. Had I stayed on the Robotech project I would have aimed to make a product of similar quality for them, but what can you do?
You also have a similar situation when it comes to molding for plastics, you can do it on the cheap or you can opt for slide core tech but that's determined by how much you want to invest and the final product reflects that as well.
I think their showing at Gama was pretty sad, it's the premier event for the industry and they brought stuff that look like it was an ebay second hand find that was built by a ten year old. They seriously brought that to show off to all their peers? No way in hell it'd happen like that with any of my stuff, ugh.
I'm probably in that bunch then, being an engineer I can understand give and take and have expressed my opinion that they might be some reason for doing the minis the way they did. BUT, I also made sure to say I have no experience with models and mini making. I think everyone needs to take it down a few notches. Some of those AGRESSIVELY defending and attacking are going way too far.
Now, that being said. Feel free to post that pic on the Facebook page.
Being the owner of the FB page I can try to keep things civil BUT I'm not there to censor unless language and tempers get out of hand. It is my page that I created to have fun, not argue on. We can keep that in the KS comments.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I made page 118, sweet
I can see why they built the models the way they did as I'm fairly versed in how items need to be set up for plastics (but not an expert) However there are other ways they could have approached some of the components that would have been a bit more user friendly. Basically they have somebody working the engineering side that took a practical approach to making the model, but they are viewing it entirely from the engineering side and doesn't have a well refined consideration in what the end user wants or expects.
That's why with a lot of different products they have middle managers to make sure that the needs of the engineers line up with a more user friendly form. To me it looks like they didn't have anyone with the artistic/modeling knowledge working in that arrangement. The pieces are well built to meet a technical function, but the end form leaves a lot to be desired.
IMO much of that comes from experience and having a working knowledge built up from past projects and a working background in miniatures. The Dreamforge titans for instance didn't just "happen" both Mark and WGF had to build up a proper skill set from previous kits and even then it required constant input and corrections from the artist (Mark). The result was a mold and finished kit that was fully functional on the technical end but also had a tremendous amount of end user consideration built into it, which made it a very rare and successful product for a start up launch item.
I think what they ended going for was too ambitious for wargaming models and it doesn't fit the needs of the end user properly. While we all like semi poseable figures like our space marines when it comes down to it 95% of the gamer audience builds their models in all the same stock poses despite the modularity. We don't need fully articulated models at that scale and the models could use a fraction of the parts with a reduced modularity and still fill the users needs just fine. Make 3-5 poses of veritechs cut the part count to 6-10 parts and people would still be plenty happy.
That is the best answer I've heard all day. Reasoning that makes sense.
I would rather have better detailed Battletech minis that I'd have 4 or 5 pieces to put together too. I'm not a patient person and still have a lot of unpainted Battletech minis. I hate painting
Paulson....with the information you know about the process of mini making, what's your prognosis as far as what the end product will turn out like for Robotech RRT?
Best and worse case scenario. I find this enthralling.
Forar wrote: Those GAMA pics look a lot like the prototypes they had back at GAMA 2013 and Gencon (not all of them, these are either primed or a darker material than I recall some of the GC stuff being), but they might not necessarily be representative of the actual figures as mass produced (good or bad).
Yes, yes, giving them the benefit of the doubt seems strange here to me too, but it's worth noting that the recent GAMA pics, best I can tell and from what the article reads, might not actually mean anything other than "we've had sculptors totally making some hot prototypes".
Which is a frustrating place to be; they'll laud the quality and how awesome and exciting and happy everyone is for them, but gloss over any critique with "oh, but that'll be fixed in production".
*jazz hands*
This is from the RH thread via BrookM. I thought we could make some use of it here:
Honestly I don't know as I'm not privy to any of that info and anything I'd say is pure speculation. As for where they are truly at in the process my guess is as good or bad as anyone else that's not a PB or ND employee. Supposedly they were 90% done months ago, based on the renders and previews I do find that kinda doubtful they are that far along but I have no clue where they are in the process. I also don't know what type of contracts they might be locked into, a large number of companies require deposits to ensure your projects place in line for the year. It's doubtful they could pick up and move to another plastics company without encuring a serious loss. At this point they could very well be deep enough into the project that there's no way to change things and it may just be a situation where they just have to grin and bear it and keep working with what they have.
They are not in an easy situation, it's huge and complex project particularly for company dealing with it being their entry into a new industry. I think they had big plans but when those plans hit reality those expectations quickly wilt as it was based on an in-experienced understanding of what would be involved. Should they make it to a second project it'll likely be an invaluable learning experience and the next would greatly benefit from it.
The problem as I see it is that Kevin was promising the moon in terms of quality, but trying to work in a budget range that's not capable of providing the tech base that's needed to match that detailing. (like slide core molding which is easily multiple times the cost depending on the sprue sizes) It's not that he didn't want to offer the best product he could but he likely didn't have a full grasp on what miniatures gamers want out of a product. We prefer a reasonable approximation of things, something that looks good on the table but doesn't require it to be exact. for example our space marines are grossly deformed when it comes to actual proportions but they work within the establish style and viewed at a distance. Beyond the technical aspects of making miniatures it is largely still an art form and isn't a skill you can just waltz into doing, it requires a sense of personal flare. It's just like I can't suddenly write a novel just because I buy a box of pencils, it takes a lot of development time and practice. Even people with a background in digital modeling can't just switch over to doing miniatures without a significant learning curve and needing experimentation to get the right touch.
I think that's stuff that was needed to be factored in during the launch of the project and I'm not certain how possible it is to play catch up at a point late in the game. I think they'll make good on the project but I think it'll likely be well past the already pushed back target dates. I don't see how they can make gencon based on what's been shown, I have a suspicion that the 1st wave won't hit until Oct or maybe even a late as the end of the year? Gencon could be possible provide nothing hangs up at all, but I've yet to see any companies with overseas plastic projects manage that, they have all had significant delays during the production and/or shipping phase.
Thank you Paulson for coming here and providing insight into how this works. As a long time 40k guy I've always wanted knowledge of how this works. In fact sir you've done more with your few post than PB has with their updates. Since it's such a steep learning curve I see how difficult it must be for PB to give info since they just don't have the experience.
Looking forward to your ks next month for Mecha Front. Do you have a link to the models you'll be offering next month? I know it will be advertised in the RRTks page.
From what you say I'm thinking this whole thing started out fueled on dangerous combination over-hype and inexperience.
I heard about the 98% done and 'it's coming out early' communication snafu's. Wow!
Now it appears the whole thing has bogged down, the natives are restless and Palladium has put on the blinders and is hell bent on 'staying the course'. The so called "Gen Con Suicide Pact'.
Sadly, I am well acquainted with Palladium's track record and business practices and they aren't straying from their usual patterns with this project.
I think this project is in a lot of trouble. A lot.
Too many pieces. Waay too many. Inferior one's at that.
A PR nightmare is now raging out of control on the Comment sections of the KS page.
Folks weren't expecting this much work. My guess is nostalgia, more than anything drove the kickstarter to $1.4+ million. I'm sure the hype storm added fuel to the fire.
I really hope that this doesn't end up the trainwreck it's looking like.
PB better have something "added" to make up for this train wreck, especially when delivery slips beyond Gencon. I don't see them doing it, but they will lose all kinds of face when it slides even later. Terrible.
Those guys Jaymz and Peter over on the Mike's facebook page deserve a medal for putting Anthony Kopah in his place (even though it wont do much help). The same drivel is coming out of his mouth, and they are defending those that he is attacking viciously (he should really cut it with the "switch to pre-produced minis" bull).
@Paulson- Very informative posts. I enjoyed the read and your insights on mini making and production matters. I like the info on how your mech was an easy clean-up before putting it together (as compared to the OMG NO clean-up for robotech).
I find the hobby is more about the customization (conversions) and painting. You know...making the minis your own, in your own vision. Clean-up and error fixing are not. They add nothing to the overall creativity, imagination, and enjoyment. But they sure as heck will take away if not done, thus the problem with the amounts needed on those PB/ND sculpts.
Edit: Sorry for ranting again. I don't actually mean to.
The other issue I see with seams that bad is that they make the quality of the rest of the miniature relatively academic. I'm an experienced minis painter and also a model builder, but the amount of putty that I'm going to need to fill those gaps will be pretty noticeable even with sanding and filing (gak). So we'll have minis with great details marred by big putty lines. Uggh...
FYI- Sent a polite but strongly worded email to PB about a refund based on quality on March 17th. Still haven't heard anything back. If I don't hear from them by Monday or Tuesday, I'll probably post it here and on the KS.
Salacious Greed wrote: Uh, you have to care to be haunted by something. This was a straight up money grab, with the idea to lowball everything from the start.
If they do another Kickstarter campaign, the comments section will need someone moderating 24/7. One month of non-stop hilarity.
Salacious Greed wrote: Uh, you have to care to be haunted by something. This was a straight up money grab, with the idea to lowball everything from the start.
If they do another Kickstarter campaign, the comments section will need someone moderating 24/7. One month of non-stop hilarity.
Yeah, no matter what I'm backing their next Kickstarter (at lowest possible level) just so I don't miss out on the action.
It'd be funny though if it was for a coffee mug or dice bag or something though. Just imagining the rage storm as the coffee mug or dice bag is delayed for a year, shoddy looking or has typos on it.
I got burned majorly by their 'in house' kickstarter for Northern Gun 1 & 2. When I heard about it (after it had ended) I thought the idea of running a game based on Great Lakes smuggling and piracy in the Rifts universe would be fun. At the time I had only one RIFTS® book, the original first edition. I asked my friends if they'd be interested in playing.and they really dug the concept. So at this point, Kevin had assured us that the book would be ready in 6 or so weeks. Eh, being out of gaming for years and not really grasping that everything that comes out of his mouth is either a lie or a delusion, Pick one. I bit on the hype and started buying RIFTS® books.
I bought two of their Xmas Grabbags and like 20 other books, selling off some stuff I now regret to pay for some of it.
Up and running, thinking after a couple of sessions the first NG book would be done, the second one promised 2 or 3 weeks after that. I run my game every other week, so I planned on running some intro type missions and the whole Northern Gun thing would be blended to the mix in a smooth fashion. Well the weeks turned into months, then a year.I spent my entire summer having to come up with missions and reasons why my Northern Gun smuggling band for some reason never actually went to their home base. It became a running joke. I'd read off the weekly updates before every session and we'd all trash Palladium a bit.
Things actually got worse when I realized over all the massive amount of books I'd bought that basic things weren't ever fleshed out as well. Like Chi-town (the Death Star of the Rifts universe)...no book, no info or very little, basically nothing usable. There was also the good guys home base city (where my smugglers were supposed to trade to)...New Lazlo...think the Rebel Base but for magic users. All the info on New Lazlo from my stack of books,now approaching two feet of shelf space could be fit on a 3 X 5 card. Both locations are majorly important to the game universe, Chi-Town actually the main focus. No book...little info...25 years in.
I then started analyzing the books and found they were mostly toy catalogs of new weapons, very much like the old weapons, but with a new picture and some stats. And the rest of the books were filled with 'flavor text' that took page after page to basically say nothing. You could glean information out of them, but it was painful having to read all this, when a box of text and a few bullet points would have served. Imagine if you bought an RPG that was written in the form of a novel and you had to either take notes or use a highlighter as you read along. That's what it felt like.
The game became such a joke at about the 6 months past promised release date that I started having more fun with it, It became a complete and intentional mockery of RIFTS® and Palladium. This fun eventually got old as the books were about a year past due and I moved onto something else (Call of Cthulhu). I've been happy ever since. Ignored NG1's eventual release....I think 15 or 16 months late at the point of it's release. NG part 2 is still not out. I think it's like 2 years late at this point. Having to endure it's almost done for years of weekly updates goes from amusing, to cruel, to stupid, to this guy needs help, he must have some sort of bulls@*tter's disorder. Yeah Morgan Fairchild....
The above post should be reposted on the RRTks page to prepare backers for what's to come. I mean if it took that long for a book, their bread and butter. Something they've done for 20 plus yrs. Imagine RRT models something they've never done.
Thanks for reading and liking my post. I needed to vent...I actually moved some Palladium stuff into boxes to stuff in my garage's attic and it brought up some memories.
This site chronicles all of Palladium's follies...the announcement dates, the scheduled release dates, the delays, and if maybe the actual release dates.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's the info for the next two scheduled releases from Palladium Books. Oh Boy!
Rifts World Book 34: Northern Gun Two
Announced: September 29, 2011 PR – "In development"
Scheduled: January 13, 2012 PR – April 2012
Status—Last Week: March or April 2014
Status—This Week: April 2014
Number of Times Release Date Postponed: 23
In Production: 2 years 24 weeks 6 days
Rifts World Book 35: Megaverse in Flames (Minion War: Part 5) 4
Announced: Rifter 32 (Oct 05), p.13C – "Coming in 2006"
Status—Last Week: April 2014
Status—This Week: April or May 2014
Number of Times Release Date Postponed: 43
In Production: 8 years 22 weeks 1 day
They also often have literally dozens of books 'in the pipe' and 'coming soon', but only deliver a handful per year (like 3-4 on average, I think? Plus the quarterly Rifters), so it's easy to have books 8 years late when you have an order of magnitude more that you've teased your fans with for the last decade and put them onto the 'coming soon' list faster than you take them off.
Ninja Division supposedly being the ones in charge of minis and the rules was what got me on board. Watching PB take so much onto themselves after the fact feels more and more like a bait and switch these days.
"Oh man, Palladium, they're always late."
"But it's not Palladium! Ninja Division, whom have experience with minis, are doing the Kickstarter, and the minis, and the rules, and we're just giving feedback!"
Alpharius wrote: 8 1/2 years is a hell of a long time to be working on a book for an RPG.
Did Rifts change editions in between then and now?
Bwaahhaaaaa! Oh, alpharius, you so funny! Original rifts books from 1989 are still 99% compatible with the game in 2014 (you just need to add 2 to the number of attacks for NPCs and characters). That is the state of Palladium RPG gaming unfortunately.
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Forar wrote: They also often have literally dozens of books 'in the pipe' and 'coming soon', but only deliver a handful per year (like 3-4 on average, I think? Plus the quarterly Rifters),
I believe for the calendar years of 2012, 2013, and 2014 that they're only at 5 new books total (and that includes the Dead Reign one with a page count that technically classifies it as a pamphlet according to the UN) not counting "anniversary" reprints and "updated" books with one new chapter's worth of info.
Robotech Genesis Pits, Rifts Lemuria, Rifts NGR 1, Dead Reign something, and possibly a Rifts Vampire book. Any I missed?
Alpharius wrote: 8 1/2 years is a hell of a long time to be working on a book for an RPG.
Did Rifts change editions in between then and now?
Bwaahhaaaaa! Oh, alpharius, you so funny! Original rifts books from 1989 are still 99% compatible with the game in 2014 (you just need to add 2 to the number of attacks for NPCs and characters). That is the state of Palladium RPG gaming unfortunately.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forar wrote: They also often have literally dozens of books 'in the pipe' and 'coming soon', but only deliver a handful per year (like 3-4 on average, I think? Plus the quarterly Rifters),
I believe for the calendar years of 2012, 2013, and 2014 that they're only at 5 new books total (and that includes the Dead Reign one with a page count that technically classifies it as a pamphlet according to the UN) not counting "anniversary" reprints and "updated" books with one new chapter's worth of info.
Robotech Genesis Pits, Rifts Lemuria, Rifts NGR 1, Dead Reign something, and possibly a Rifts Vampire book. Any I missed?
The funny thing you always read in the updates is how they work 16 hour days and on Saturdays and he's always on fire writing.
So if all you did was write for 10 hours a day for 200 days a year...why the F can't you get anything accomplished? They average 2 or 3 books a year and a lot of the time they are manuscripts written by a freelancer and are just gone over by Kevin.
If you follow the progress via the weekly updates the books are always being rushed to completion (cuz they're always late), then they go pretty much from KS's computer to the printer. No editing, no playtesting, no professional proofreading.
The last time a book was on time was 2006 and that was a frikken coloring book!!
Which was a gyp job anyway. It was the artists pencil layout sketches slapped together in book form. Not really a coloring book,
I tossed the two I got in Xmas grab bags right in the trash.
In that video from GAMA did anyone else catch the guy saying that the minis where getting done in ABS plastic?
I always thought polystyrene was the best for model kits, and ABS was better for toys(same stuff they use for lego bricks). From what I've always heard ABS was stronger but not as good with details and paint.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guess I should have been paying attention more. The kickstater FAQ says it was going to be done in ABS.
Yeah, we've been told it'd be in ABS since the early days. People were asking from the very start, to ascertain whether or not Rick and the other Limited Edition figures would be ABS or Resin or what.
Apparently there may be a few resin or metal bits included (for example, in the VEF1/1D pack, which may differ at retail from what the backers are getting), but the vast majority will be ABS.
So what models out there in the real world are in ABS now, so that I can see what we're in store for? Guess I didn't really pay attention to it that much before.
Most model kit are actually done in ABS, which is still poly-styrene but it's a modified blend to make it more durable then pure styrene. So for miniatures it's "a good thing" and not a cheap/substandard product. I could probably go into a lot more detail on the technical end, but in the 20 years since I took chemistry I've been doing my best to kill the science part of my brain with booze and model glue fumes. The science part of my brain gets angry when I poke at it to wake it up, so much like the math part I try to leave them alone as much as possible
Also objet styled prints like the ones they did the prototype pieces in use thin layers of ABS material held together by a wax binder in order to make the model. The ABS part is quite tough, but the wax binder is fairly weak so the parts take to sanding and being scraped fairly well but the prints are pretty fragile when placed under stress like bending or having weight applied to it they snap pretty easy because it's the wax layers that lets go and weakens the piece.
Solid ABS like what they use with injection molding is pretty durable
Yes then it will be hacked and rewritten so Kevin can claim the kudos.
I have a strong feeling you are right. I think maybe that's part of the reason for it being so hush hush. Maybe someone knows they've been butchered and don't have the guts to tell the boss.
If we are right-
The rules are being revised by somebody who as far as I know has never played a wargame, doesn't really believe in playtesting and when you play in a game he runs, he doesn't even use his own game system. I've played in games he's run. It's all off the cuff, total GM caveat. It's a lot of fun, don't get me wrong. But loosey goosey doesn't work in tactical wargaming. I find it interesting that RPG appears in the game title. I definitely think some of the RPG rules are going to be inserted into the ruleset.
Releasing the rulebook- I mean wouldn't having folks who know this kinda stuff through and through, playtest your make or break, million dollar, untried and untested, new flagship product make sense?
Since PB seems to be in self denile mode again, it would explain why there's no update. It would be nice to have miniatures instaed of models. It's going to take longer to get me pieces ready.
Is PB a bad good guy or just an incompetent bad guy?lol
Cypher-xv wrote: Since PB seems to be in self denile mode again, it would explain why there's no update. It would be nice to have miniatures instaed of models. It's going to take longer to get me pieces ready.
Is PB a bad good guy or just an incompetent bad guy?lol
Well somehow they're a combination of Darth Vader and Uncle Rico (from Napolean Dynamite).
I'm amazed how little thought Palladium fans give to the real world. It would seem all hurdles the release faces will be acceptable because they've been waiting for this for to be released for 30 years.
Joyboozer wrote: I'm amazed how little thought Palladium fans give to the real world. It would seem all hurdles the release faces will be acceptable because they've been waiting for this for to be released for 30 years.
To me who has dabbled in Palladium fandom, I've always found the slavering worship, blind-eye-turning and rabid defense of Kevin Siembeida and Palladium perplexing. I really think it's an emotional reaction. They really love the games and the settings, but cannot separate the company from their emotions. When somebody criticizes the company, they process it as a a personal attack..
If you look at the facts. The delays. The weird business practices. The unconventional way the books are written. The cut and pasting of the same typos and errors from book to book for 25 or 30 years. Yes...there are typos that are ignored and repeated that are listed as errors on the website., It's up to you to fix things.
In the fantasy setting, if you follow the character creation steps as written, you can't actually roll up a character. They're out of order. It's been like that for I'm guessing 25 years and has just been reprinted in a special hardcover 25th anniversary edition.
Ugh. I need to stop this. They breed such a toxic atmosphere.
paulson games wrote: Man I'm glad I didn't pledge, if I could post on there I'd be wasting all my time trying to make sensible posts to a sea of trolls.
The gaps in these models, while disappointing, aren't to me that bad. It's more that with a years effort on these models you would expect to see better. If the models looked like this 8 months ago and we were getting them in 2-3 months, I would find them more acceptable. You just can't see where a year's worth of effort went.
The only thing I can think of is that there was so much mismanagement and/or procrastination in getting the original renders approved, that when it came time make changes to the designs to better support production. all concerned just said, " it, slice it all down the middle". It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.
I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.
Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.
I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.
Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.
As well as an excuse to cut off all communication for weeks/months at a time "at the advice of our lawyers" which would put us back where we were last Autumn with nothing but empty platitudes...
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Joyboozer wrote: I'm amazed how little thought Palladium fans give to the real world. It would seem all hurdles the release faces will be acceptable because they've been waiting for this for to be released for 30 years.
That type of "feedback" (more like a feedback loop as it's about as variable as static and also as helpful) is what Palladium has selectively chosen to surround themselves with and exclusively listen to for over a decade. They've come out and flatly said they respond to positive feedback not negative and that if you're not happy with them then you are NOT a customer as 99% of "customers" in their 2012 "poll" were satisfied with the status quo. I had been hoping the involvement of ND would have changed the situation but they're unfortunately their own unique brand of turd apparently.
Yes then it will be hacked and rewritten so Kevin can claim the kudos.
I have a strong feeling you are right. I think maybe that's part of the reason for it being so hush hush. Maybe someone knows they've been butchered and don't have the guts to tell the boss.
If we are right-
The rules are being revised by somebody who as far as I know has never played a wargame, doesn't really believe in playtesting and when you play in a game he runs, he doesn't even use his own game system. I've played in games he's run. It's all off the cuff, total GM caveat. It's a lot of fun, don't get me wrong. But loosey goosey doesn't work in tactical wargaming. I find it interesting that RPG appears in the game title. I definitely think some of the RPG rules are going to be inserted into the ruleset.
Releasing the rulebook- I mean wouldn't having folks who know this kinda stuff through and through, playtest your make or break, million dollar, untried and untested, new flagship product make sense?
Oh wait...who am I kidding.
Ok guys, some of you may know this, others will not. I have an NDA and have a copy of the official rules. They are from back in January. Now they are laid out and fully illustrated. The rules overall look well done and I have read through most of it. At present I've been making some minor suggestions for a few changes, but nothing major, mostly things to add flavor. There are 2 reasons for the rules not being printed out, at least this is what I understand. The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail. Now the second reason is pure conjecture on my part, but it would makes sense. If you know that the minis are all are not ready to roll yet, you are a publishing company so that when it's time to get on the rules you know you can go to print really quickly, wouldn't you wait until time was short and use you people with NDA's like myself to go and look for any and all typos. Maybe even make suggestions for rules changes and/or clarifications to add more fun and realism to the game?
I know the many will take this how they will. I accept that. I'm just sharing what I know of the situation. I am also doing my damndest to see if there is another way to share as much of the rules as possible. If you have any rules questions feel free to ask.
Mike1975 wrote: The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.
This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.
It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.
The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.
I think the rules were not a huge issue. I pitched in some concerns (see LOS discussion and skirmish rules) and as long as they aren't as facepalmingly bad as 40k, the skirmish rules aren't rubbish, and the layout is not confusing to sift through, then there shouldn't be a problem on that front (of course, they could still end up being 40k 2.0).
What has made me back off is those models. That really pumped the brakes on all my enthusiasm, and caused me to reconsider the game (besides their expected release date looks to be pushed back yet again). Now my eyes are being opened to all the problems, and I am not so keen to shrug it off.
Mike1975 wrote: The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.
This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.
It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.
The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.
I'd think with all the negative buzz, releasing the rules might chill some folks out. And if they're good...generate positive buzz.
Maybe...eh...who am I kidding.
They really are stuck in 1992.
I hope this doesn't end up being a gigantic, steaming Zentraedi turd. Damn if you think of it...the Jurassic Park dino piles would be about the right size.
Mike1975 wrote: The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.
This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.
It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.
The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.
I don't necessarily disagree but that is what I understand, granted I am in no way an insider either.
Ironwill13791 wrote:I think the rules were not a huge issue. I pitched in some concerns (see LOS discussion and skirmish rules) and as long as they aren't as facepalmingly bad as 40k, the skirmish rules aren't rubbish, and the layout is not confusing to sift through, then there shouldn't be a problem on that front (of course, they could still end up being 40k 2.0).
What has made me back off is those models. That really pumped the brakes on all my enthusiasm, and caused me to reconsider the game (besides their expected release date looks to be pushed back yet again). Now my eyes are being opened to all the problems, and I am not so keen to shrug it off.
You are correct the rules are pretty solid, I just hope to make them much more so and ready to easily add in units from the second and third generations.
Mike1975 wrote: The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.
This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.
It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.
The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.
I'd think with all the negative buzz, releasing the rules might chill some folks out. And if they're good...generate positive buzz.
Maybe...eh...who am I kidding.
They really are stuck in 1992.
I hope this doesn't end up being a gigantic, steaming Zentraedi turd. Damn if you think of it...the Jurassic Park dino piles would be about the right size.
rigeld2 wrote:
Mike1975 wrote: The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail.
This is stupid and horrible and wrong. I'm not doubting it's a reason they're giving, but it's a dumb one.
It's entirely possible to have PDFs with placeholder images (a box with an X) for any of the illustrations to make things easier on playtesters. In fact it should be easier to do that than to mail out hundreds of pages (through certified mail of course) to the multiple playtesters they have.
The fact that they're withholding PDFs of rules is because of a mindset that is still stuck in the 90s and refusing to move on. They're literally making things harder on themselves by not having a pdf.
I don't disagree, remember we are dealing with one of the most complex IPs in the gaming industry which is well known for having lawsuits thrown around based on it.
They... they said they had hundreds of playtesters. I cannot imagine the time and cost that would've been involved in mailing out updates weekly or even a couple of times per month after compiling playtester feedback.
So many dead trees...
Or I guess they could've expected people to just write in/post it note their existing copies, but a couple of revisions in that'd just be a giant mess. Wyrd's Malifaux 2.0 beta test had weekly updates based on playtester feedback for adjustments to both game and figure mechanics. Put out to the community in general, openly and for free once the closed Beta ended, I might add.
"It's been thoroughly playtested" was one of their declarations, but man, I can't imagine being one of those playtesters pencil'ing in notes that this figure now has a PIL of 2 and a GUN of 4 and the character section should just be thrown out and replaced with a big X and the subtitle "HERE BE DRAGONS" etc, etc, etc.
Ok guys, some of you may know this, others will not. I have an NDA and have a copy of the official rules. They are from back in January. Now they are laid out and fully illustrated. The rules overall look well done and I have read through most of it. At present I've been making some minor suggestions for a few changes, but nothing major, mostly things to add flavor. There are 2 reasons for the rules not being printed out, at least this is what I understand. The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail. Now the second reason is pure conjecture on my part, but it would makes sense. If you know that the minis are all are not ready to roll yet, you are a publishing company so that when it's time to get on the rules you know you can go to print really quickly, wouldn't you wait until time was short and use you people with NDA's like myself to go and look for any and all typos. Maybe even make suggestions for rules changes and/or clarifications to add more fun and realism to the game?
I know the many will take this how they will. I accept that. I'm just sharing what I know of the situation. I am also doing my damndest to see if there is another way to share as much of the rules as possible. If you have any rules questions feel free to ask.
The first is an incredibly outdated excuse for the reasons already listed. As for the second reason, no matter how good the playtesters are at catching mistakes, 50x the playtesters (the number of pledgers) potentially looking at the files will find more.
I know you like what you see but I think it's reasonable for those of us on the outside to take that with a grain of salt considering that every step has involved failing at some point. Project management? Failed as the delivery date is already 8 months late after the earliest estimate and counting. Consistent meaningful communication? Absent for months last summer/fall. Mouth watering minis? Overly finnicky construction combined with the worst possible placement of the seams. Promotion? A Design an Ace contest that ended up being a joke as it was 6 months late and had only a single winner instead of multiple. The only shoe they have left to drop are the rules and they're playing them very close to their chest. That is a very worrisome thing indeed with Palladium.
There were simple digital copies before they put illustrations in the rules and that was well over a year ago when they were doing some heavy playtesting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Again, this is most plausible explanation in my mind
I don't disagree, remember we are dealing with one of the most complex IPs in the gaming industry which is well known for having lawsuits thrown around based on it.
Ok guys, some of you may know this, others will not. I have an NDA and have a copy of the official rules. They are from back in January. Now they are laid out and fully illustrated. The rules overall look well done and I have read through most of it. At present I've been making some minor suggestions for a few changes, but nothing major, mostly things to add flavor. There are 2 reasons for the rules not being printed out, at least this is what I understand. The first is that the illustration inside the book are considered HG property since they are Robotech and they have pushed to not have anything in PDF. Not even the staff has electronic copies of the material from what I understand. The copy that I have is a printer copy that I was sent via mail. Now the second reason is pure conjecture on my part, but it would makes sense. If you know that the minis are all are not ready to roll yet, you are a publishing company so that when it's time to get on the rules you know you can go to print really quickly, wouldn't you wait until time was short and use you people with NDA's like myself to go and look for any and all typos. Maybe even make suggestions for rules changes and/or clarifications to add more fun and realism to the game?
I know the many will take this how they will. I accept that. I'm just sharing what I know of the situation. I am also doing my damndest to see if there is another way to share as much of the rules as possible. If you have any rules questions feel free to ask.
The first is an incredibly outdated excuse for the reasons already listed. As for the second reason, no matter how good the playtesters are at catching mistakes, 50x the playtesters (the number of pledgers) potentially looking at the files will find more.
I know you like what you see but I think it's reasonable for those of us on the outside to take that with a grain of salt considering that every step has involved failing at some point. Project management? Failed as the delivery date is already 8 months late after the earliest estimate and counting. Consistent meaningful communication? Absent for months last summer/fall. Mouth watering minis? Overly finnicky construction combined with the worst possible placement of the seams. Promotion? A Design an Ace contest that ended up being a joke as it was 6 months late and had only a single winner instead of multiple. The only shoe they have left to drop are the rules and they're playing them very close to their chest. That is a very worrisome thing indeed with Palladium.
I wonder who is doing the playtesting?
I know a freelancer and inner circle guy is probably one of them. But from what I know of him, I've met him. He's very much a full fledged fan..
I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.
Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.
Litigation isn't the only option. An organized group of backers pushing for refunds my be the best first step.
And at some point after enough delays you have to admit that the release is never going to happen. Then what does it matter if litigation is going to push the vaporware back even further.
I am becoming a bit afraid after catching up on all the posts and the links (thanks all!) and daring to look at the kickstarter again.
I realize what if investing in this "Robotech" is just allowing myself to get sucked into a past that will never "reboot" into something current?
It will drag out so bad that other than finding the physical people posting in the forum it will be a whole lot of "meh" and will go absolutely nowhere?
What if we are like a more sheep version of the "white knights" that we are still drinking Kevin's Kool-Aid and it is just one more way to be drawn into his unsuccessful and forgotten past?
Yes I do like the IP but it is all pointless if we can hardly find anyone local to play with. I feel this thing has a limited shelf life and if they mismanage it any worse the launch will barely be noticed.
I could just see that right at Christmas time they will be "Look!! Just in time for Christmas!!! You should be excited!! oh, yeah, you are doing Christmas and are focusing on other things and not giving the gift of Robotech..."
Yeah, this hater is just wanting that fail.
Anyone else have a sick feeling they are going to mess up big?
It least I know Forar is nearby with some friends, I might get at least one game in a year or two from now...
Imo Talizer they already messed up big. I have had serious doubts to this ever becoming something that would spawn new interest in quite a few new players. This whole thing is driven by pure nostalgia. It would take massive effort on the part of passionate fans to make it more than that but in my opinion even that won't overcome the baggage that is the Robotech IP.
One only needs look at the state of the Macross fanbase (huge and growing) as opposed to Robotech (old and getting older) to see the writing on the wall for the Harmony Gold license.
I wrote this project off as a loss months ago. If there isn't any measurable progress to getting models on a boat by July, I think it will be time for the backers to start on some collective action to get compensation.
Litigation would take years - and they'd use 'pending litigation' as in excuse to delay further.
Litigation isn't the only option. An organized group of backers pushing for refunds my be the best first step.
And at some point after enough delays you have to admit that the release is never going to happen. Then what does it matter if litigation is going to push the vaporware back even further.
I'm trying to get that organized group of backers together. PM me if you're interested in helping out.
I've come to the conclusion that Palladium, during the Crisis of TreacheryTM, were bought out by Dunder Mifflin (who heard about them by supplying their printer with paper) and are run remotely by the Scranton office. Kevin is actuality Michael in disguise and that Akashic guy on their forums is Dwight.
I think it is telling that they couldn't even be bothered to put proper bases on the minis they're bringing to show retailers at the biggest retailer/distributor convention in their industry. Is it a major thing that they just used whatever they had laying around even though it didn't match remotely what they'll plan to offer instead of just driving down to an FLGS to buy *any* circular bases? Or at a minimum just go to a Hobby Lobby or Michael's store and buy generic wood 1" circles if they didn't want to use another company's products? (not sure who made the squad bases) It is a symptom of the problem there that despite working 80+ hours a week for months on end that they frankly have nothing to show for it. No RPG books except for a 48 page pamphlet for Dead Reign over the past 6 months... no minis despite 3 delivery estimates (October, Nov/Dec, Feb) rolling by with nothing in backer hands. They don't even have any new pencils or mugs to sell for all those man hours supposedly not spent playing Angry Birds or Candy Crush in the office.
Also, here are some truly well designed and dynamic minis. I'm not a backer as frankly I have no use for soft core porn fantasy models but the detail and thought put into the layout of the sprues is what I had been hoping for with Robotech.
Instead... I'm seeing cheap looking gashapon that I have to additionally put in alot more effort to make game worthy. If the poses and sculpts were instead more dynamic and though out it would be worth it but frankly not for cheap looking gashapon. I'll still assemble a bunch but I doubt I'll do more UEDF models than I'd need for X-wing games especially as I'd have to deal with 3 models for each "fieldable" one with veritechs. I'll likely finish up my Zentraedi though just to have something to show for the multiyear affair.
Warboss, I understand being frustrated but I find the base argument/complaint kinda a waste. Nobody has even mentioned the bases until now. I don't see a problem with him picking up whatever he could at a local hobby shop and using them, and that is exactly what he did.
Mike1975 wrote: Warboss, I understand being frustrated but I find the base argument/complaint kinda a waste. Nobody has even mentioned the bases until now. I don't see a problem with him picking up whatever he could at a local hobby shop and using them, and that is exactly what he did.
It's about the presentation; they spent the money to go to the convention with a primary goal of advertising/selling their product to their main customers (stores and distributors). If you don't bother "dressing up' the product correctly, you don't make a very good impression especially when you're already over a half year late and the buzz about your product's quality is turning negative. If, lets say, you've got someone at your workplace pitching you a product and they don't bother with proofreading their Powerpoint presentation and the handouts they give you have pages in the wrong order, would you subcontract to them?
Mike1975 wrote: Warboss, I understand being frustrated but I find the base argument/complaint kinda a waste. Nobody has even mentioned the bases until now. I don't see a problem with him picking up whatever he could at a local hobby shop and using them, and that is exactly what he did.
It's about the presentation; they spent the money to go to the convention with a primary goal of advertising/selling their product to their main customers (stores and distributors). If you don't bother "dressing up' the product correctly, you don't make a very good impression especially when you're already over a half year late and the buzz about your product's quality is turning negative. If, lets say, you've got someone at your workplace pitching you a product and they don't bother with proofreading their Powerpoint presentation and the handouts they give you have pages in the wrong order, would you subcontract to them?
I wouldn't hire them, but not for the bases, I wouldn't hire them because they are not experts on minis, they did not spend more time making sure the minis were properly glued together and preferably painted when brought to the show. The bases are the least of the things to worry about. I remember a meeting where someone brought a cake. He asked if someone wanted a piece. Everyone raise their hands as the cake was immaculate and looked quite delicious. He took out a plate and cut the piece of cake out carefully with a cake knife. He the repeated the question with the same results. When the next person got up to the front he got out a plate exacly like the first with a fork and all. This time he grabbed a handful of cake and plopped it on the plate.
It's all about presentation. But again, I say the bases were the least of their worries. If you show up without shaving and combing your hair in a wrinkled up shirt, nobody is going to care if your shoes are not shined.
I wouldn't hire them, but not for the bases, I wouldn't hire them because they are not experts on minis, they did not spend more time making sure the minis were properly glued together and preferably painted when brought to the show. The bases are the least of the things to worry about. I remember a meeting where someone brought a cake. He asked if someone wanted a piece. Everyone raise their hands as the cake was immaculate and looked quite delicious. He took out a plate and cut the piece of cake out carefully with a cake knife. He the repeated the question with the same results. When the next person got up to the front he got out a plate exacly like the first with a fork and all. This time he grabbed a handful of cake and plopped it on the plate.
It's all about presentation. But again, I say the bases were the least of their worries. If you show up without shaving and combing your hair in a wrinkled up shirt, nobody is going to care if your shoes are not shined.
I agree that it isn't a major thing (and said so in the initial post) but it is yet ANOTHER thing to add to the ever growing pile of incompetence that certain folks (not yourself) keep trying to equivocate away. It's the wrinkled shirt on top of the typo filled presentation and misnumbered handouts. It just happens to be something that has been largely ignored because of bigger problems (like crappy looking minis) taking precedence but is indicative of the quality of effort (as opposed to quantity since they're working 80+ hours a week on a project delayed over half a year and counting). I'm curious to see what the painting guide that the guy was working on for 6 weeks will look like (that's a hell of a long time for one likely small section of a book).
Mike1975 wrote: Warboss, I understand being frustrated but I find the base argument/complaint kinda a waste. Nobody has even mentioned the bases until now. I don't see a problem with him picking up whatever he could at a local hobby shop and using them, and that is exactly what he did.
I think what he is trying to say is you want to show an "attention to detail" when selling a product to a customer (especially us picky bunch).
It just seems sad that an item as simple as a base (which they are making and need) they could not bother to get done to showcase the other models.
I remember commenting on them playing with a Dropship Commander cityscape: you should not draw attention to your competition's stuff.
You should literally act like the only game in town.
I understand they are no GW but they could employ some creative type to make whatever they want with any material at hand, many of us here could do that.
I see a problem with their inability to put their best foot forward, it conveys one of two messages: we do not care what you think OR we did not think how it would look.
A very practical friend told me once: I can work for a smart/evil boss, you can convince him through logic of his own self interest, I can work with a good/stupid man because I can get him to trust me BUT a stupid/evil person their is nothing redeemable there. In this parallel I wonder what PB is.
And it doesn't have to be purely based on the major issues drowning out the minor ones.
The minor ones are still there. "Death by a thousand cuts" style, there will be people who can overlook gaps you can fit a dime in but feel the grocery list of issues that plague this project to be offputting. Sometimes one big thing is a showstopper, other times it's the dozens of little niggling things that get in the way, or a mix of both.
It's a very subjective thing, and no, there's no way to please all the people all of the time, but there definitely ways to please more of the people more of the time.
Swabby wrote: The bases thing bothered me. It was also tbe very first thing my wife noticed when watching that video. "Why are some of them on square bases?"
The second question from her was "Where is their tiny demo table?"
She isn't even interested and she notices this stuff. People pay attention to the little things in a game involving tons of little things.
Your wife is officially more of an expert on minis games than Palladium's 50+ years worth of experience RPG veterans on their first related tabletop crossover. Of course, since they've been screwing up their chosen subniche specialty of RPGs for over a decade, I'm not sure that is a surprise.
@Swabby: Thanks! I was watching reruns of the Office last week and I kept thinking that it just needs the boss running around on payday asking people what they thought of the latest project to be complete.
Forar wrote: Woah. No digital copies at all for anyone?
They... they said they had hundreds of playtesters. I cannot imagine the time and cost that would've been involved in mailing out updates weekly or even a couple of times per month after compiling playtester feedback.
So many dead trees...
Or I guess they could've expected people to just write in/post it note their existing copies, but a couple of revisions in that'd just be a giant mess. Wyrd's Malifaux 2.0 beta test had weekly updates based on playtester feedback for adjustments to both game and figure mechanics. Put out to the community in general, openly and for free once the closed Beta ended, I might add.
"It's been thoroughly playtested" was one of their declarations, but man, I can't imagine being one of those playtesters pencil'ing in notes that this figure now has a PIL of 2 and a GUN of 4 and the character section should just be thrown out and replaced with a big X and the subtitle "HERE BE DRAGONS" etc, etc, etc.
At this point, I seriously doubt they even playtested the game outside of PB. I hope the majority of the ruleset is from Alessio, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't know anything about the RPG, but don't want it to be an RPG. I want it to be a miniatures game.
Mike, I don't know what your other gaming habits are, so could you expound, so that we can ask you how in depth it feels, in comparison to other miniatures games?
Forar wrote: And it doesn't have to be purely based on the major issues drowning out the minor ones.
The minor ones are still there. "Death by a thousand cuts" style, there will be people who can overlook gaps you can fit a dime in but feel the grocery list of issues that plague this project to be offputting. Sometimes one big thing is a showstopper, other times it's the dozens of little niggling things that get in the way, or a mix of both.
It's a very subjective thing, and no, there's no way to please all the people all of the time, but there definitely ways to please more of the people more of the time.
Didn't you mean to say: "Death by a thousand seams!"
I bet this is all a plot. Dunder bought out a putty factory and sales were slumping, so he cooked up this scheme to sell ALL the putty and take care of all those 6 year old whiners once and for all!
It is funny but that hit the nail on the head for me:
You feel like a turkey for taking offense to little issues, the problem is that there are so many of them you get fed-up and label the whole thing as messed up beyond redemption.
I think: I can wait,
the money I can float,
I knew it was PB but Ninja Div is helping out,
I can handle not knowing what the models will look like,
I am ok with limited poses: I am a modder!,
I am ok with seams: nature of the beast right?,
I am ok with the ton of tiny parts: these are models that are a challenge!,
I can handle no communication: they are busy right?,
I got a deal so they needed to charge more for shipping: it is understandable,
They will ship in waves to get the models to us faster!,
This is their first time with models: issues are expected,
Ahhhhhhh..... I am a putz!!!!! No more excuses!!! Give a date without lying or I want my money back to give to someone who has an iota of business skills and customer management experience!!!!! REALLY! Bunch of amateurs that deserve to fail as a business.
It plays pretty quickly and is realy simple to learn. The dies rolls and reasons for them are simple and make sense. I've played several games in my garage so far. Here is an older rules set that is pretty close to theirs that I wrote up myself.
You roll init.
You pick a squadron, move it, fire its weapons and do damage, then the other player does the same with one of his squadrons. Squadron sizes are based off of force cards that balance out squadrons sizes and power somewhat.
When you attack you roll one D6 and add you gunnery. If successful the other guy can atempt to dodge by rolling a D6 and adding his piloting skills.
There are some rules at the end to transfer characters that I have not spent much time on other than glance at them. My focus has been on the tabletop rules. The units stats are translated from the RPG. Damage of a weapon/20 is damage in game in MDC as well as MDC of main body of a unit/25 = MDC in game. Ranges have been fudged a bit to make them work well with a mini game as well as speeds are not exactly direct translations. I also have a number of unit stat cards and more. Anyone that really wanted to could download a few things off the Facebook page or ask for a copy from me and have enough to play out quite a few games in the garage. Many others have been doing just that as most of the recent demos and garage games by fans have used these rules.
Okay, y'know what? I'm finally going to do it. I'll read the rules.
So, let's delve in.
First off, "Robotech® RPG Tactics™"? Breetai save us if that's how it shows up every single time in the official rules.
Next; stealing initiative is for chumps. Spend 1 Command point per core squadron still on the table and only succeed on a roll of a 6? So 3-5+ command just for a 16% chance of success? Forcing a re-roll or adding a third die (with the option for an opponent to add one as well) off hand feel like more elegant ways to do it.
Not sure how big a fan I am of the half dozen tie breakers rather than just using a roll off. Going to the cards seems like an easy way for someone to overlook that their character actually has Leadership 4 or something. Simply re-rolling feels more elegant, but I understand wanting to influence the roll with more than just luck.
But stealing initiative is seriously a losing gambit. I get that it's supposed to be risky as all get out, but I can't imagine using it unless I was about to be tabled, and the point where I have few enough squads standing to not care about the loss of command points, it's probably already a desperate gambit anyway.
But lets move on... to movement! Changing facing costs 1 inch per 90 degrees? Like the debate we had on "49% versus 51%", it seems to me like it might be more elegant to either ignore changes of facing entirely, or simply charge 1" to change facing. Letting players get bogged down in what does or does not constitute 91 degrees might be asking for trouble.
The need to compare the height of the mech to the height of the water to determine the affect on movement feels more RPG'y than "fast paced miniatures game'y".
The differentiation between Light, Heavy, and Dense woods is one of distance between trees? Too convoluted. Simply declaring a given area (using tree terrain bits, or green felt, or whatever) as light, heavy or dense seems more straightforward.
Oh god, no, no, I just got to the table of movement adjustments based on whether or not it's a mech, infantry, and has hands or not. Waaaay too many modifiers.
Look, I just got to page 6, and while I'm sure some will simply say "oh Forar, you've been complaining for months, surely this is just more of the same", there are some game mechanics choices here that are not leading me to feel the 'fast paced' action here.
Page six goes into detail regarding a Battlepod and a lake that I hope to Dolza I never encounter in a game. I have friends who are math averse that would run screaming from the room.
Forar wrote: And it doesn't have to be purely based on the major issues drowning out the minor ones.
The minor ones are still there. "Death by a thousand cuts" style, there will be people who can overlook gaps you can fit a dime in but feel the grocery list of issues that plague this project to be offputting. Sometimes one big thing is a showstopper, other times it's the dozens of little niggling things that get in the way, or a mix of both.
It's a very subjective thing, and no, there's no way to please all the people all of the time, but there definitely ways to please more of the people more of the time.
Didn't you mean to say: "Death by a thousand seams!"
Actually, I'm more willing to bastardize Nietzsche.
"If you gaze long into the seams, the seams will gaze back into you"
Forar wrote: Okay, y'know what? I'm finally going to do it. I'll read the rules.
So, let's delve in.
First off, "Robotech® RPG Tactics™"? Breetai save us if that's how it shows up every single time in the official rules.
Next; stealing initiative is for chumps. Spend 1 Command point per core squadron still on the table and only succeed on a roll of a 6? So 3-5+ command just for a 16% chance of success? Forcing a re-roll or adding a third die (with the option for an opponent to add one as well) off hand feel like more elegant ways to do it.
Not sure how big a fan I am of the half dozen tie breakers rather than just using a roll off. Going to the cards seems like an easy way for someone to overlook that their character actually has Leadership 4 or something. Simply re-rolling feels more elegant, but I understand wanting to influence the roll with more than just luck.
But stealing initiative is seriously a losing gambit. I get that it's supposed to be risky as all get out, but I can't imagine using it unless I was about to be tabled, and the point where I have few enough squads standing to not care about the loss of command points, it's probably already a desperate gambit anyway.
But lets move on... to movement! Changing facing costs 1 inch per 90 degrees? Like the debate we had on "49% versus 51%", it seems to me like it might be more elegant to either ignore changes of facing entirely, or simply charge 1" to change facing. Letting players get bogged down in what does or does not constitute 91 degrees might be asking for trouble.
The need to compare the height of the mech to the height of the water to determine the affect on movement feels more RPG'y than "fast paced miniatures game'y".
The differentiation between Light, Heavy, and Dense woods is one of distance between trees? Too convoluted. Simply declaring a given area (using tree terrain bits, or green felt, or whatever) as light, heavy or dense seems more straightforward.
Oh god, no, no, I just got to the table of movement adjustments based on whether or not it's a mech, infantry, and has hands or not. Waaaay too many modifiers.
Look, I just got to page 6, and while I'm sure some will simply say "oh Forar, you've been complaining for months, surely this is just more of the same", there are some game mechanics choices here that are not leading me to feel the 'fast paced' action here.
Page six goes into detail regarding a Battlepod and a lake that I hope to Dolza I never encounter in a game. I have friends who are math averse that would run screaming from the room.
Never fear Forar, I build those movement rules from what I know playing Battletech. The actual rules are much simpler. Now that I'm home here is a more up to date version where I'm taking some of the real stuff and adding it on.
AND No I have not updated the Movement rules yet. From about Page 12 on it's close but none of it is official yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The actual game has no turning costs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cyporiean wrote: So these are just your personal rules, rather then the play test/actual rules.
More of a mix. I made my own based on what I thought they would be from what they released, which is damned close, I'm making changes hence the version number so that the rules are more in line with the official ones. I gotta see how far I am allowed to go. If it was up to me I'd post another set that is nearly word for word but I gotta get the all clear. Hopefully soon. As I go I will remove stuff that is way different and work on unifying the two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact there are no costs for elevation changes either
Talizvar wrote: A very practical friend told me once: I can work for a smart/evil boss, you can convince him through logic of his own self interest, I can work with a good/stupid man because I can get him to trust me BUT a stupid/evil person their is nothing redeemable there. In this parallel I wonder what PB is.
behind schedule, and, like you adroitly pointed out, have no sense of actually putting these fidly little plastic parts together. Actually have the air intakes look like they'd intake air, so that the engines would work? Wha?
I'm still debating about posting this sad bit of news on the 
You're acting like they are trying to maintain some sort of moral high ground, they certainly didn't have many problems adjusting truth to fit their needs before and during the 
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