When a Space Marine Librarian summons a Daemon, it is going to get ATSKNF, POTMS, Chapter Tactics, immunity from daemonic instability, no need to roll on the warp storm table, probably pick up some artefacts on the way out the warp, be able to ride in transports, be able to assault from summoning, have skyfire and up to 4 mastery levels, allow the user to choose psychic powers, be able to overwatch on nearby units, and get rage, counterattack, shrouded, invulnerable save buffs, etc, depending on allegiance.
When a Chaos Sorcerer summons a Daemon, it is going to get fear and soulblaze and cost 10 points less than the loyalist version.
And if an Ork summons it it'll be 25 points more, forced to assault the closest model, and have a 6+ armor save.
infinite_array wrote: It says "in a desperate alliance." Unless White Dwarf has suddenly gotten clever in giving hints - and I don't think it has - I'd wager that's just poor word choice rather than an indication of new ally status.
It also says that led to many "sideways glances and shifty maneuvers"...which sounds alot like the "one eye open" special rule for desperate allies.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at it again, the Hive Tyrant was worth a possible FOUR Victory points? I wonder if that's in addition to the old secondary objectives (Slay the Warlord).
Pancake had units worth 1 VP for every 40, 50, or 70 points they costed (roll a D3 pre-game). Hive tyrants being anywhere from 165-280 points it could be a thing now (or a simplified version of it).
Leth wrote: I mean one rulebook is less than two tanks of gas.
And the rulebook is infinitely more expensive than a breath of air.
How about you compare the worth of the 40k rulebook to other wargaming/rpg rulebooks instead?
I was comparing it to what I would have to give up potentially to get it. If money was so tight that 100bucks made the difference between being able to play warhammer or not, I would take the bus for a month. But then I wouldnt be playing warhammer so its a moot point.
I cant compare it to other wargaming books personally because I have no interest in playing other games. So it is a matter of if it is worth continuing to play warhammer or not for me personally.
I have tried and invested in other games and it just ends up being a waste of money with minis that I then have to sell off getting next to no enjoyment out of.
Great job of ignoring everything else I said though
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at it again, the Hive Tyrant was worth a possible FOUR Victory points? I wonder if that's in addition to the old secondary objectives (Slay the Warlord).
Pancake had units worth 1 VP for every 40, 50, or 70 points they costed (roll a D3 pre-game). Hive tyrants being anywhere from 165-280 points it could be a thing now (or a simplified version of it).
Pancake was apparently not from the studio (someone was saying earlier that it was house rules that had made their way online?).
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kronk wrote: $80 is dinner + a few drinks with the little lady, plain and simple. It's entertainment money and comes out of the entertainment budget.
Is it high for a book? Yes. Will I spend it? Yes.
It's also only $5 USD over the current one. If this thing is even thicker (and if it rolls in the Escalation and Stronghold core rules it will be) that's fine by me.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at it again, the Hive Tyrant was worth a possible FOUR Victory points? I wonder if that's in addition to the old secondary objectives (Slay the Warlord).
Pancake had units worth 1 VP for every 40, 50, or 70 points they costed (roll a D3 pre-game). Hive tyrants being anywhere from 165-280 points it could be a thing now (or a simplified version of it).
Pancake was apparently not from the studio (someone was saying earlier that it was house rules that had made their way online?).
Either way it had some GREAT game mechanics so seeing analogs in 7th is a positive in my eyes.
It's also only $5 USD over the current one. If this thing is even thicker (and if it rolls in the Escalation and Stronghold core rules it will be) that's fine by me.
If its all those books rolled into one for a $85 price tag, then it will truly be a Grimdark Battle Bible.
Leth wrote: Well back to the rumored price point. 25% more. Well do we know if we are getting more? I liked the 6th edition book way more than the fifth, fourth, and third edition books.
I heard that it was multiple separate books. Well that sounds like added value to me. Leave the fluff books at home and just take the rules with you. Well now I don't need the little rulebook.
For every pessimistic scenario you create and fill in the gaps of unknowns it is equally as easy to fill in the gaps with neutral or positive information.
It doesn't matter if the new edition has a gold flake cover, the point is still the same- the cost barrier of entry continues to rise at a significant rate.
There is no pessimism or optimism on the lifespan of the 6th edition, it has lasted literally half the time of any previous edition. Compounded with the higher cost of the 7th (no matter what awesomeness it could possibly be), and I don't think there is any way to say this is....er, great news.
EDIT: the $99 pricepoint was a rumor somewhere, that's what I'm going off of. If it doesn't end up being $100, then great. However it has still only been 2 years.
It may have lasted half the time sure, it may have been more expensive? Sure. Just because you are not getting as much value, does not mean that it was not worth it. Do I wish I had gotten more time out of 6th? Possibly, it depends. I didnt like 5th it was not fun for me. I am enjoying 6th WAY more than I did 5th. Now, 6th has its issues and if by them releasing 7th in a shorter time frame and I enjoy it WAY more than 6th I am failing to see how that is less value for me? While money is finite, my time is even more finite, if I have to spend a little extra to get more enjoyment out of something I have no problem doing so. This is not a cheap hobby to buy new, but there are plenty of ways to keep your costs down.
Also Micro-econ 101. If something is worth more in returns than you are spending on it, makes sense to buy it. If it isnt, then you dont. GW made no promises about how long an edition would last. Now if they changed it every week then the returns would not equal the investments and people would stop buying. But I have no problems with a 2 year cycle. I get more out of my rulebook per dollar every year than I do almost anything else I buy. I mean one rulebook is less than two tanks of gas.
I played over 2000 hours of Halo 2 (on line and off line combined). Best $50 bucks I ever spent!
I also bought a scanner in the early 90's that could pick cordless house phones (the old kind not any of the newer ghz ones) for $50 which was a lot of money back then at $5/hour. Second best $50 I ever spent. So many hilarious conversations overheard (100% legal BTW) and a few really sad ones.
It's also only $5 USD over the current one. If this thing is even thicker (and if it rolls in the Escalation and Stronghold core rules it will be) that's fine by me.
If its all those books rolled into one for a $85 price tag, then it will truly be a Grimdark Battle Bible.
As long as the screaming voices of the damned don't keep me up at night from within it then that sounds like a good deal to me!
Okay, he (contact in London, & btw, paints minis for GW & is a GD winner several times), says the book is 47 GBP, and is under the 500 page count now... "Looks streamlined now compared to what I saw months ago..." he said...
krazynadechukr wrote: Okay, he (contact in London, & btw, paints minis for GW & is a GD winner several times), says the book is 47 GBP, and is under the 500 page count now... "Looks streamlined now compared to what I saw months ago..." he said...
kronk wrote: $80 is dinner + a few drinks with the little lady, plain and simple. It's entertainment money and comes out of the entertainment budget.
Is it high for a book? Yes. Will I spend it? Yes.
This, but it depends on income levels. At my age (late 30s) my income is such that I'll spend $100+ on a night out with my wife a couple times a month. 15 years ago, having just gotten out of the military and working full time at a crappy job while attending college, I debated if I had enough money to eat lunch some days, $100 would have been a deal breaker.
For me, right now $100 every couple years is no big deal but I realize that not everyone can say that.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at it again, the Hive Tyrant was worth a possible FOUR Victory points? I wonder if that's in addition to the old secondary objectives (Slay the Warlord).
So not only did the Tyranids get frakked over with the latest codex, but now their only crutch - MCs - award crazy VPs to their enemies.
And with Grav Weapons already making MCs pretty pointless, it only adds insult to the injury.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at it again, the Hive Tyrant was worth a possible FOUR Victory points? I wonder if that's in addition to the old secondary objectives (Slay the Warlord).
So not only did the Tyranids get frakked over with the latest codex, but now their only crutch - MCs - award crazy VPs to their enemies.
And with Grav Weapons already making MCs pretty pointless, it only adds insult to the injury.
It could also be a new cost for Slay the Warlord or a combination of Slay the Warlord plus secondary objectives that made that possible though. Let's not assume GW is giving the Nids a punt to the groin just yet.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at it again, the Hive Tyrant was worth a possible FOUR Victory points? I wonder if that's in addition to the old secondary objectives (Slay the Warlord).
So not only did the Tyranids get frakked over with the latest codex, but now their only crutch - MCs - award crazy VPs to their enemies.
And with Grav Weapons already making MCs pretty pointless, it only adds insult to the injury.
On the flip side, other armies' units will most likely also award more VP. It looks like the days of "1KP per unit (regardless of size)" may be gone, which I think we can all agree is a good thing.
When a Space Marine Librarian summons a Daemon, it is going to get ATSKNF, POTMS, Chapter Tactics, immunity from daemonic instability, no need to roll on the warp storm table, probably pick up some artefacts on the way out the warp, be able to ride in transports, be able to assault from summoning, have skyfire and up to 4 mastery levels, allow the user to choose psychic powers, be able to overwatch on nearby units, and get rage, counterattack, shrouded, invulnerable save buffs, etc, depending on allegiance.
When a Chaos Sorcerer summons a Daemon, it is going to get fear and soulblaze and cost 10 points less than the loyalist version.
And if an Ork summons it it'll be 25 points more, forced to assault the closest model, and have a 6+ armor save.
You forgot BS 0 and the Ork equivalent to a rail gun.
Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
No, that was my Memphis GW employee. I'm txting my contact in London who is in GWHQ. He paints the minis we see in WD and stuff...
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Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
No, that was my Memphis GW employee. I'm txting my contact in London who is in GWHQ. He paints the minis we see in WD and stuff...
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Psychic card pack 7 gbps
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Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
I think krazy has been inspired by GW's tendency to not provide information about future releases and has gone onto to actively provide disinformation, so he can feel like he's laughing alongside Kirby and Co. at the stupid 40k complainers.
Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
No, that was my Memphis GW employee. I'm txting my contact in London who is in GWHQ. He paints the minis we see in WD and stuff...
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Psychic card pack 7 gbps
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Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
No, that was my Memphis GW employee. I'm txting my contact in London who is in GWHQ. He paints the minis we see in WD and stuff...
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Psychic card pack 7 gbps
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GWHQ isn't in London, you damn yankee!
Well, my contact is from Derby to be more specific. I do not know where GWHQ is specifically. I assumed London.... Where is it & how close is Derby?
Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
krazynadechukr wrote: Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
If this source is real then I bet he's super happy for you to give all this easily traceable information about him for GW to use to find out who he is and make sure he never works for them again.
krazynadechukr wrote: Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
If this source is real then I bet he's super happy for you to give all this easily traceable information about him for GW to use to find out who he is and make sure he never works for them again.
Seriously, that's like 3 people total at HQ. Most of the people working there don't even play the game. I could probably figure out who it is just by going through White Dwarf.
He probably has a non-disclosure agreement in place, which are enforced pretty harshly in the UK (theft of trade secrets is very serious over there.) I imagine this guy is about to get a call from a solicitor as he is escorted out of the building.
krazynadechukr wrote: Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
If this source is real then I bet he's super happy for you to give all this easily traceable information about him for GW to use to find out who he is and make sure he never works for them again.
Seriously, that's like 3 people total at HQ. Most of the people working there don't even play the game. I could probably figure out who it is just by going through White Dwarf.
He probably has a non-disclosure agreement in place, which are enforced pretty harshly in the UK (theft of trade secrets is very serious over there.) I imagine this guy is about to get a call from a solicitor as he is escorted out of the building.
I'm not trying to be cruel, but I don't think krazy has a source. All of his rumors have been wrong, and his posting is at times erratic.
I think the story he provided sounds like "nuh-uh! My source is super smart, and he paints the best models! And he has lunch with Kirby when he wants!" I don't want him to provide information about the source, I just want his rumors to be right so it doesn't seem like he's spamming these threads with stuff that is made-up.
I think so. I just hope they're not a different sized just to make people buy new ones.
A 4 pack? Why a 4 pack?
No one said anything about a "4 pack".
I was thinking the exact same thing.
Woops, sorry, bouncing from one device to the other. He said it looks like a 4 pack of templates, there is a larger circle one. The flame & small/medium/large.... too many conversations.
Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
No, that was my Memphis GW employee. I'm txting my contact in London who is in GWHQ. He paints the minis we see in WD and stuff...
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Psychic card pack 7 gbps
Automatically Appended Next Post: new templates 11 gbps....
krazynadechukr wrote: Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
krazynadechukr wrote: Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
Says he works? Says he works?
So in short, even if this is a legitimate sharing of information, and not an attempt to troll/be the centre of attention, you don't actually know this person in reality, if he exists at all, and he could be simply winding you up?
techsoldaten wrote: He probably has a non-disclosure agreement in place, which are enforced pretty harshly in the UK (theft of trade secrets is very serious over there.) I imagine this guy is about to get a call from a solicitor as he is escorted out of the building.
Provided that person actually exists.
Anyway, that new bit from WD implies that SM and Tau are going to be Desperate Allies. Seems like a step in the right direction, at least as far as fluff is concerned.
I know an actual former 'Eavy Metal painter (she's did the Golden Daemon entry in the duel category a few years ago with the Seraphim booting the Dark Eldar Wych in the head) and from what I've heard the painting team is pretty much all in house.
krazynadechukr wrote: Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
Says he works? Says he works?
So in short, even if this is a legitimate sharing of information, and not an attempt to troll/be the centre of attention, you don't actually know this person in reality, if he exists at all, and he could be simply winding you up?
I tell you what krazy, on assurances of I'll accept a lifetime ban from Dakka if I post it publicly, PM the link to your source's website, then I can make an informed decision for myself as to if there is any likely substance to what you are/he is saying, and if I agree, I can at least be in a position to support the info.
krazynadechukr wrote: Hm, my contact says he works for GW as a mini painter (freelance). He frequents the office. He is a GD winner, and has a website. I have mailed things to him, and he mailed things to me. I can't vouch for him working for GW, but he is a GD winner & is in the hobby deep..... Let's hope what he is feeding me is right.
C ' Mon guys I know someone out there can narrow this down pretty quick.
Help us figure out who it is if 'they' exist at all.
Just a thought: why would someone who paints models be privy to pricing information before a release, especially on stuff he doesn't need to paint like cards and templates?
Seeing as how this is a rumor thread, my conversation has been about the rumors. "not having the new rulebook" is a stupid argument because this whole thread is about...you guessed it, the rumors. I'm not doing a hive mind negativism. I was white knighting GW until very recently. (though I always criticized the chaos dex because it was flat and boring with some unplayable units.) I love 40k and have been playing since RT times. I'm not frothing at the mouth angry and I'm not irrational. If you can't see my argument for anything more than whining or "GW hatin'" then you probably don't need to read the rest because you won't see anything except what you want to see. But if you're interested in learning why I think the way I do, then please read on.
So, assuming the rumors are true and that I can go for a pickup game and the guy there has his all heldrake army and I have my SOB tac army, then this edition will not be fun for me and I will move on to other games.
The one positive note that I see is that it'll separate the types of players that I don't like from the ones that I do enjoy playing against. Chances are, the player with his riptide army (And if you think for a second there won't be people out there with those, you're delusional.) isn't the kind of player I'd want to play against anyways. So, when I go to my store for a game, I can see the unbound players and set them aside. I frankly don't care what their armies are, I have no desire to play against them.
Here's why.
It was quite a few pages back but someone basically made the argument: "It doesn't matter if someone brought in an all Riptide army because you can just counter that with an all Devastator army!" There's a few things wrong with that. It means then that the Riptide player won't have fun because the game is one sided and if that's how all games will be then it's guaranteed that one or both players will not have fun. That's not a good game.
Second. It means that you either have to tailor each game or risk being swept off the board by the end of turn two. Not fun.
Third. This also means that you'll have to buy a lot more models of certain kinds to beat that riptide list. I don't know about you but I don't have a whole army of devastators lying around. If its heldrake spam, I'll have to buy a gak ton of AA which I currently don't have (And Sisters STILL don't have access to.) So I have to know ahead of time what the opponent is playing, go out and buy a crap load of new stuff (the hobby) and then win against them without trying. Or, bring my normal army and face the heldrake army and get wiped off the board.
As as been mentioned before, these are black and white examples that won't come up much but they aren't unrealistic and when they do occur they're not fun unless you like winning without a challenge in which case I suggest going back to picking on your little brother.
The problem is the grey areas where the guy shows up with his unbound army that isn't riptide spam that he thinks is fair and fluffy. An unbound army by nature is going to be unbalanced which means the chances of total loss or total victory have increased. Which for me means the chances of a less fun game have increased. If you like the idea of either winning totally or being completely steam rolled, then perhaps 7th ed is indeed for you. Different strokes for different folks.
So, automatically I won't be playing against unbound armies. Which means that If I play against someone with a bound army, chances are they have at least a desire for a balanced game where the game isn't decided before the first dice roll. So my player pool has shrunk but the quality of players has gone up within that given player pool.
I'm not a tournament player and have never wanted to be. What I do want is a fair game where both players have a chance of winning.
Do I have reason to be optimistic? Not really. At most it seems the latest GW books have been sideways moves with a few backwards ones. (Nids) The IG dex was pretty good, but they took away too many units including many characters for no reason. There's a lot of ctrl+C, ctrl+P going on at the GW headquarters so I don't expect a lot of originality with 7th. I expect a lot of the same old fluff, art and photos as before, only with a higher price tag. Assuming the rumored $100 for the book is true, I'm not getting it. It's not that I can afford it or that its a waste of money or whatever, I won't get it because I shouldn't have to. I shouldn't have to buy expensive books every two years. I just bought the warmachine book for $35 and it's lasted longer than two years.
Many of the codices have been criticized as bland and boring lately. So, arbitrary changes, copy and paste, not addressing serious play issues, and boring books does not inspire me to assume that this 7th is going to be great. I'd put it on the side of the "this edition is going to be great" for them to justify their optimism, but maybe such things are too subjective to do so. For me, I see no reason to be optimistic. If you thought the Nid dex was a fantastic work of originality, depth, fun and fluffy rules and competitiveness, then yes, you have ample reason to be optimistic about 7th.
On a personal note, GW refuses to support the main army I play, Sisters of Battle. They have a dex but it's digital only with no new units added and the figures being a decade old and very expensive. So that's one more nail in the coffin for me. AA would have been nice or maybe if they hadn't arbitrarily nerfed the two weakest units in the army to the point of uselessness I'd have higher hope. Such moronic moves show me that GW doesn't actually play their own game or they just don't care. (There are many more examples but I won't bother because most people know the many offenders already.)
So, again, going off the rumors because that's all we have because GW takes a Soviet Iron Curtain approach to PR, I don't believe this edition is going to be a step up for me. I'll keep playing but I'll probably be switching over to Warmachine for the time being. I still love 40k, but GW is ruining it. (I haven't even gotten into their shady and often counter-productive business practices.) I hope the meta at my local store won't change too badly because I'll still want to bring my SOB or IF armies in for a fight, but the chances of that fight being good have dropped.
It doesn't matter if the new edition has a gold flake cover, the point is still the same- the cost barrier of entry continues to rise at a significant rate.
There is no pessimism or optimism on the lifespan of the 6th edition, it has lasted literally half the time of any previous edition. Compounded with the higher cost of the 7th (no matter what awesomeness it could possibly be), and I don't think there is any way to say this is....er, great news. .
so then you consider the ork codex, that is 4th ed, to be of more value then any other codex, because it has lasted so long.... hey less $ per year! awesome! because everyone was lauding how awesome it was to only have to buy one ork dex over the past million years and complaining that they had to buy a new SM dex every edition...
The #1 complaint I was hearing pre 6th was about the long wait times between rules/codex updates.
Now we get updates at a good pace to bring everything into the same "era" and people complain non stop that they cant use their codex/BRB for XXXX years.
(and 100% it is not even confirmed your rule book is unusable, combined with FAQ/errata it may very well be usuable still...)
Hey easy, I wanted to make sure I addressed this:
I think the Ork codex has been great value!
My belief is that what people are asking for when they call for a quicker release schedule is relevance of their armies.
When a consensus builds that a particular army is not very competitive on the tabletop, people start hoping that a new edition will be released to rectify this and bring their army back into relevance- back into winning (a fair number of) games, having something unique to their army, and so forth. Some armies like the Orks have been lucky and have maintained relevance throughout these last few editions. Sure the book is a bit lopsided, but Orks have been shown to hold their own a reasonable amount of time. Allies have dampened that a bit (as with all forces that don't have BB allies), but I don't think Orks have ever been considered objectively bad. This has kept some people from clamoring for a new book, because the one they have works pretty well! And all a new book would do it shake up the internal balance and add a little new artwork, so that is why I don't think a new book for them is as big of a deal.
Could the Orks have received an update by now? Sure, that wouldn't have been an issue, they lasted past a minimum average time for codex lifespan (I'm not sure what that is but I'm guessing it's a couple of years).
What I want from new releases (and again this is me personally) is substance to the release. I don't like releases like C: Militarum Tempestus, which takes an already established unit from an army, gives it a couple of rules tweaks and additional background, and is priced at regular codex cost levels. I'm not rallying against people buying it, that's their own decision, but I think that there is a distinct lack of substance to a release like this, especially when there are many forces that are entirely neglected (i.e. Sisters, Orks).
And if it ends up being the case that this release is backwards compatible with the 6th edition codex, I will GW credit where credit is due and post saying I am happy that they did not obsolete the LE rulebooks loyal customers bought a couple of years ago. I'm not a GW hatemonger or anything, I just have certain expectations of them as a customer that I apply to any miniature company I buy from.
Is that told to you by the same guy who has spectacularly failed to provide you with a single accurate piece of information about anything unless it is after an official announcement?
No, that was my Memphis GW employee. I'm txting my contact in London who is in GWHQ. He paints the minis we see in WD and stuff...
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GWHQ is not in London. Also, if you leave clues that enable GW management to identify your friend, he may lose his job.
MWHistorian wrote: Seeing as how this is a rumor thread, my conversation has been about the rumors. "not having the new rulebook" is a stupid argument because this whole thread is about...you guessed it, the rumors. I'm not doing a hive mind negativism. I was white knighting GW until very recently. (though I always criticized the chaos dex because it was flat and boring with some unplayable units.) I love 40k and have been playing since RT times. I'm not frothing at the mouth angry and I'm not irrational. If you can't see my argument for anything more than whining or "GW hatin'" then you probably don't need to read the rest because you won't see anything except what you want to see. But if you're interested in learning why I think the way I do, then please read on.
So, assuming the rumors are true and that I can go for a pickup game and the guy there has his all heldrake army and I have my SOB tac army, then this edition will not be fun for me and I will move on to other games.
The one positive note that I see is that it'll separate the types of players that I don't like from the ones that I do enjoy playing against. Chances are, the player with his riptide army (And if you think for a second there won't be people out there with those, you're delusional.) isn't the kind of player I'd want to play against anyways. So, when I go to my store for a game, I can see the unbound players and set them aside. I frankly don't care what their armies are, I have no desire to play against them.
Here's why.
It was quite a few pages back but someone basically made the argument: "It doesn't matter if someone brought in an all Riptide army because you can just counter that with an all Devastator army!" There's a few things wrong with that. It means then that the Riptide player won't have fun because the game is one sided and if that's how all games will be then it's guaranteed that one or both players will not have fun. That's not a good game.
Second. It means that you either have to tailor each game or risk being swept off the board by the end of turn two. Not fun.
Third. This also means that you'll have to buy a lot more models of certain kinds to beat that riptide list. I don't know about you but I don't have a whole army of devastators lying around. If its heldrake spam, I'll have to buy a gak ton of AA which I currently don't have (And Sisters STILL don't have access to.) So I have to know ahead of time what the opponent is playing, go out and buy a crap load of new stuff (the hobby) and then win against them without trying. Or, bring my normal army and face the heldrake army and get wiped off the board.
As as been mentioned before, these are black and white examples that won't come up much but they aren't unrealistic and when they do occur they're not fun unless you like winning without a challenge in which case I suggest going back to picking on your little brother.
The problem is the grey areas where the guy shows up with his unbound army that isn't riptide spam that he thinks is fair and fluffy. An unbound army by nature is going to be unbalanced which means the chances of total loss or total victory have increased. Which for me means the chances of a less fun game have increased. If you like the idea of either winning totally or being completely steam rolled, then perhaps 7th ed is indeed for you. Different strokes for different folks.
So, automatically I won't be playing against unbound armies. Which means that If I play against someone with a bound army, chances are they have at least a desire for a balanced game where the game isn't decided before the first dice roll. So my player pool has shrunk but the quality of players has gone up within that given player pool.
I'm not a tournament player and have never wanted to be. What I do want is a fair game where both players have a chance of winning.
Do I have reason to be optimistic? Not really. At most it seems the latest GW books have been sideways moves with a few backwards ones. (Nids) The IG dex was pretty good, but they took away too many units including many characters for no reason. There's a lot of ctrl+C, ctrl+P going on at the GW headquarters so I don't expect a lot of originality with 7th. I expect a lot of the same old fluff, art and photos as before, only with a higher price tag. Assuming the rumored $100 for the book is true, I'm not getting it. It's not that I can afford it or that its a waste of money or whatever, I won't get it because I shouldn't have to. I shouldn't have to buy expensive books every two years. I just bought the warmachine book for $35 and it's lasted longer than two years.
Many of the codices have been criticized as bland and boring lately. So, arbitrary changes, copy and paste, not addressing serious play issues, and boring books does not inspire me to assume that this 7th is going to be great. I'd put it on the side of the "this edition is going to be great" for them to justify their optimism, but maybe such things are too subjective to do so. For me, I see no reason to be optimistic. If you thought the Nid dex was a fantastic work of originality, depth, fun and fluffy rules and competitiveness, then yes, you have ample reason to be optimistic about 7th.
On a personal note, GW refuses to support the main army I play, Sisters of Battle. They have a dex but it's digital only with no new units added and the figures being a decade old and very expensive. So that's one more nail in the coffin for me. AA would have been nice or maybe if they hadn't arbitrarily nerfed the two weakest units in the army to the point of uselessness I'd have higher hope. Such moronic moves show me that GW doesn't actually play their own game or they just don't care. (There are many more examples but I won't bother because most people know the many offenders already.)
So, again, going off the rumors because that's all we have because GW takes a Soviet Iron Curtain approach to PR, I don't believe this edition is going to be a step up for me. I'll keep playing but I'll probably be switching over to Warmachine for the time being. I still love 40k, but GW is ruining it. (I haven't even gotten into their shady and often counter-productive business practices.) I hope the meta at my local store won't change too badly because I'll still want to bring my SOB or IF armies in for a fight, but the chances of that fight being good have dropped.
TL DR (try not to clog things up with too many real world examples boss)
The hopeful limitation still falls to psychic ability... this has been a game balancer for fantasy in that outrageous spell casters launch spells that could potentially pull the battle to insane levels of comedy in dice rolling... ALAS, the opponent is able to block my psychic ability... oops... it'll be curious to see if this mechanic carries over... I love seeing those 6's rolled while playing dwarves, it would be no different in 40Klol
I think GW can get away with not releasing / addressing issues with Orks because those who play them are generally more laid back and play them for the fun of Orks.
They've been a side project due to their lack of MEQ models. They've always been a pain for TAC lists: tons of AP2 anti-tank weaponry? Here shoot some grots. Really the only thing helping keep Orks playable (not viable) is the new Toughness rule for bikes, allowing allies, and allowing Lootas to snap fire after movement and Going to Ground. And with everyone but Orks (seems like) getting good, reliable ignores cover, the one hall mark of Orks is completely obliterated.
Personally I would love to hear what GW's reasons as to why they do anything. Other than to make things "more exciting".
I don't wish them anything bad but if they don't listen to their customers, they will go extinct. Hell, reading Dakka, BoLS, etc should be a full time job for someone at GW. We're providing them with very valuable customer feedback, daily, for free!
Other companies have whole divisions dedicated to trying to figure what their customers wants are.
@MWHistorian: I understand where you're coming from. I would really like this edition to be a step-up in the game, and it very well may be, but the stuff talked about in regards to some of the army mechanics (more than the psychic phases which I don't have a problem with) is discouraging.
I hope the rule is something like "for every full 50 points in a units cost it is worth 1 VP when destroyed fully. Units that cost less than 50 points award 1 VP when fully destroyed. "
Or something similar. And only for purge the alien.
tetrisphreak wrote: I hope the rule is something like "for every full 50 points in a units cost it is worth 1 VP when destroyed fully. Units that cost less than 50 points award 1 VP when fully destroyed. "
Or something similar. And only for purge the alien.
This would be interesting. that way everyone has basically the same amount of VPs instead of some of the insanely lopsided VP totals in games against deathstars. I don't see why we can't go back to the 3rd (4th maybe? my memory fails me) edition way of doing the Purge the Alien equivalent: When you destroy a model or unit you score points equal to that model or unit's cost. When you bring a unit below half strength or half of its total wounds, you get half as many points as that unit or model cost. Simple enough.
I was just spitballing to show it isn't necessarily any fundamental paradigm shift in how VPs are calculated, necessarily.
Although, being able to play to the mission and score points from turn 1 could go a long way to undermining cheese builds and rewarding good play, because who cares about 6 Riptides if your more balanced list is out scoring them by 6 VPs a turn?
tetrisphreak wrote: I hope the rule is something like "for every full 50 points in a units cost it is worth 1 VP when destroyed fully. Units that cost less than 50 points award 1 VP when fully destroyed. "
Or something similar. And only for purge the alien.
This would be interesting. that way everyone has basically the same amount of VPs instead of some of the insanely lopsided VP totals in games against deathstars. I don't see why we can't go back to the 3rd (4th maybe? my memory fails me) edition way of doing the Purge the Alien equivalent: When you destroy a model or unit you score points equal to that model or unit's cost. When you bring a unit below half strength or half of its total wounds, you get half as many points as that unit or model cost. Simple enough.
That system has the virtue of simplicity. Its drawback is that since the points values are not well balanced the VPs values of course follow.
MWHistorian wrote: Seeing as how this is a rumor thread, my conversation has been about the rumors. "not having the new rulebook" is a stupid argument because this whole thread is about...you guessed it, the rumors. I'm not doing a hive mind negativism. I was white knighting GW until very recently. (though I always criticized the chaos dex because it was flat and boring with some unplayable units.) I love 40k and have been playing since RT times. I'm not frothing at the mouth angry and I'm not irrational. If you can't see my argument for anything more than whining or "GW hatin'" then you probably don't need to read the rest because you won't see anything except what you want to see. But if you're interested in learning why I think the way I do, then please read on.
I can't really speak for everyone else, but I think you (and others who feel similarly in this thread) misunderstand something.
I comprehend your argument and feelings. I just don't agree with most your premises, and think they're full of guesses, inventions, and extrapolations based on very sketchy and incomplete information.
Yes, a rumor thread is naturally going to be full of speculation. But including that *large* post, you've probably typed several times more words than exist in the WD article. So I humbly suggest that perhaps the depth to which you're thinking about this has gotten a little silly compared to the information we genuinely have at this time.
ClockworkZion wrote: I know an actual former 'Eavy Metal painter (she's did the Golden Daemon entry in the duel category a few years ago with the Seraphim booting the Dark Eldar Wych in the head) and from what I've heard the painting team is pretty much all in house.
.
Yeah, I've got a friend who used to be a 'Eavy Metal painter as well, and that's what I understood from talking to her, as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
reds8n wrote: One would suggest that further discussion with regards to this issue would be better off conducted through Pms if only to avoid cluttering the thread.
If claims don't work out..well....... people'll remember.
Mail Orders in GW stores -- in the UK anyway -- appear to be coming with laminated postcards matching the poster designs seen earlier.
There's one with the chaos marine codex and a " There is only war" heading. Which is labelled 4 of 4.
MWHistorian wrote: Seeing as how this is a rumor thread, my conversation has been about the rumors. "not having the new rulebook" is a stupid argument because this whole thread is about...you guessed it, the rumors. I'm not doing a hive mind negativism. I was white knighting GW until very recently. (though I always criticized the chaos dex because it was flat and boring with some unplayable units.) I love 40k and have been playing since RT times. I'm not frothing at the mouth angry and I'm not irrational. If you can't see my argument for anything more than whining or "GW hatin'" then you probably don't need to read the rest because you won't see anything except what you want to see. But if you're interested in learning why I think the way I do, then please read on.
I can't really speak for everyone else, but I think you (and others who feel similarly in this thread) misunderstand something.
I comprehend your argument and feelings. I just don't agree with most your premises, and think they're full of guesses, inventions, and extrapolations based on very sketchy and incomplete information.
Yes, a rumor thread is naturally going to be full of speculation. But including that *large* post, you've probably typed several times more words than exist in the WD article. So I humbly suggest that perhaps the depth to which you're thinking about this has gotten a little silly compared to the information we genuinely have at this time.
At least you gave me a well thought out argument...oh wait.
Not sure if this is new info but my local GW Norwich have posted up on their FaceBook page pre orders go live on the 16th at 1900 and if we pre order in store by the end of Sunday we get invited to a VIP event on Friday the 23rd held from 1800-0000 where we leave the store with our rulebooks. So looks like 24th of May is actual release not pre order.
Just for future knowledge, you can double-click your post or go up to edit if you ever need to make adjustments. I haven't seen you before so welcome to Dakka!
Souleater wrote: Are we going to have to wait another month for the new starter set?
.
More than a month, most likely...
40K Radio wrote:
Some updates on 7th edition: 1) It will purely be a book release. 2) It could be released as early as May.
On the Chaos Space Marine Releases. 1) Look for the stuff to be released beginning of summer. 2) Crimson Slaughter(CSM in the DV starter) might receive a Supplement as well.
mikhaila wrote: I just got off the phone with my GW rep. No real new info, but he did state "pre-orders on the 17th and product on the 24th".
Thanks! I've updated the thread title and the OP to reflect this info.
----
I also added the additional text from WD (about a Hive Tyrant being worth 4 Victory Points, etc) into the OP as well, since the only image of that WD page had to be removed (as it was hosted here on Dakka, which is not allowed).
So if you missed that image, you can now re-read a text version of it in the OP.
mikhaila wrote: I just got off the phone with my GW rep. No real new info, but he did state "pre-orders on the 17th and product on the 24th".
Thanks! I've updated the thread title and the OP to reflect this info.
----
I also added the additional text from WD (about a Hive Tyrant being worth 4 Victory Points, etc) into the OP as well, since the only image of that WD page had to be removed (as it was hosted here on Dakka, which is not allowed).
So if you missed that image, you can now re-read a text version of it in the OP.
Sorry about that -- I got in a hurry to post the image. I'll open a photo bucket account in the future.
"Worth a possible four victory points" That sounds like some randomization was in play especially late in the game when First Blood should already be taken
Eldarain wrote: "Worth a possible four victory points" That sounds like some randomization was in play especially late in the game when First Blood should already be taken
Mission specific or new Slay the Warlord?
Likely just a terrible random mechanic because actual balance takes effort/time.
Seeing as how this is a rumor thread, my conversation has been about the rumors. "not having the new rulebook" is a stupid argument because this whole thread is about...you guessed it, the rumors. I'm not doing a hive mind negativism. I was white knighting GW until very recently. (though I always criticized the chaos dex because it was flat and boring with some unplayable units.) I love 40k and have been playing since RT times. I'm not frothing at the mouth angry and I'm not irrational. If you can't see my argument for anything more than whining or "GW hatin'" then you probably don't need to read the rest because you won't see anything except what you want to see. But if you're interested in learning why I think the way I do, then please read on.
So, assuming the rumors are true and that I can go for a pickup game and the guy there has his all heldrake army and I have my SOB tac army, then this edition will not be fun for me and I will move on to other games.
The one positive note that I see is that it'll separate the types of players that I don't like from the ones that I do enjoy playing against. Chances are, the player with his riptide army (And if you think for a second there won't be people out there with those, you're delusional.) isn't the kind of player I'd want to play against anyways. So, when I go to my store for a game, I can see the unbound players and set them aside. I frankly don't care what their armies are, I have no desire to play against them.
Here's why.
It was quite a few pages back but someone basically made the argument: "It doesn't matter if someone brought in an all Riptide army because you can just counter that with an all Devastator army!" There's a few things wrong with that. It means then that the Riptide player won't have fun because the game is one sided and if that's how all games will be then it's guaranteed that one or both players will not have fun. That's not a good game.
Second. It means that you either have to tailor each game or risk being swept off the board by the end of turn two. Not fun.
Third. This also means that you'll have to buy a lot more models of certain kinds to beat that riptide list. I don't know about you but I don't have a whole army of devastators lying around. If its heldrake spam, I'll have to buy a gak ton of AA which I currently don't have (And Sisters STILL don't have access to.) So I have to know ahead of time what the opponent is playing, go out and buy a crap load of new stuff (the hobby) and then win against them without trying. Or, bring my normal army and face the heldrake army and get wiped off the board.
As as been mentioned before, these are black and white examples that won't come up much but they aren't unrealistic and when they do occur they're not fun unless you like winning without a challenge in which case I suggest going back to picking on your little brother.
The problem is the grey areas where the guy shows up with his unbound army that isn't riptide spam that he thinks is fair and fluffy. An unbound army by nature is going to be unbalanced which means the chances of total loss or total victory have increased. Which for me means the chances of a less fun game have increased. If you like the idea of either winning totally or being completely steam rolled, then perhaps 7th ed is indeed for you. Different strokes for different folks.
So, automatically I won't be playing against unbound armies. Which means that If I play against someone with a bound army, chances are they have at least a desire for a balanced game where the game isn't decided before the first dice roll. So my player pool has shrunk but the quality of players has gone up within that given player pool.
I'm not a tournament player and have never wanted to be. What I do want is a fair game where both players have a chance of winning.
Do I have reason to be optimistic? Not really. At most it seems the latest GW books have been sideways moves with a few backwards ones. (Nids) The IG dex was pretty good, but they took away too many units including many characters for no reason. There's a lot of ctrl+C, ctrl+P going on at the GW headquarters so I don't expect a lot of originality with 7th. I expect a lot of the same old fluff, art and photos as before, only with a higher price tag. Assuming the rumored $100 for the book is true, I'm not getting it. It's not that I can afford it or that its a waste of money or whatever, I won't get it because I shouldn't have to. I shouldn't have to buy expensive books every two years. I just bought the warmachine book for $35 and it's lasted longer than two years.
Many of the codices have been criticized as bland and boring lately. So, arbitrary changes, copy and paste, not addressing serious play issues, and boring books does not inspire me to assume that this 7th is going to be great. I'd put it on the side of the "this edition is going to be great" for them to justify their optimism, but maybe such things are too subjective to do so. For me, I see no reason to be optimistic. If you thought the Nid dex was a fantastic work of originality, depth, fun and fluffy rules and competitiveness, then yes, you have ample reason to be optimistic about 7th.
On a personal note, GW refuses to support the main army I play, Sisters of Battle. They have a dex but it's digital only with no new units added and the figures being a decade old and very expensive. So that's one more nail in the coffin for me. AA would have been nice or maybe if they hadn't arbitrarily nerfed the two weakest units in the army to the point of uselessness I'd have higher hope. Such moronic moves show me that GW doesn't actually play their own game or they just don't care. (There are many more examples but I won't bother because most people know the many offenders already.)
So, again, going off the rumors because that's all we have because GW takes a Soviet Iron Curtain approach to PR, I don't believe this edition is going to be a step up for me. I'll keep playing but I'll probably be switching over to Warmachine for the time being. I still love 40k, but GW is ruining it. (I haven't even gotten into their shady and often counter-productive business practices.) I hope the meta at my local store won't change too badly because I'll still want to bring my SOB or IF armies in for a fight, but the chances of that fight being good have dropped.
]
TL DR (try not to clog things up with too many real world examples boss)
The hopeful limitation still falls to psychic ability... this has been a game balancer for fantasy in that outrageous spell casters launch spells that could potentially pull the battle to insane levels of comedy in dice rolling... ALAS, the opponent is able to block my psychic ability... oops... it'll be curious to see if this mechanic carries over... I love seeing those 6's rolled while playing dwarves, it would be no different in 40Klol
Not sure which is more forum inappropriate and rude...
Posting an essay mid thread or quoting it in entirety.
Come on guys
OT: if changes restore/create balance and enhance the speed of gameplay without murdering lore/fluff/IP, I'm all for it.
Eldarain wrote: "Worth a possible four victory points" That sounds like some randomization was in play especially late in the game when First Blood should already be taken
Mission specific or new Slay the Warlord?
Tyranid Tax. Since Tyranids got so many advantages from the Allies rules and the new Psychic powers, they're not worth twice as many Victory Points as everyone else.
But no, I would suspect it's to do with the new objective rules.
Crazyterran wrote: EDIT: I'm more amazed at the thought of my 65pt Librarians being able to throw dice at turning into a Bloodthirster.
Dark angels unbound 2000 pts
28 librarians - 1820 pts
Defense line with quad gun - 100 pts
Combi-meltas on a few, maybe meltabombs on a couple, ymmv
I think this could be great. They're fallen angels that found each other and they're going to drown you in big daemons.
Could be great...? I dont know anyone that would want to play against that. Seriously, this is a perfect example of someones "great idea" for how to play an unbound army. It honestly is going to be stupid due to the fact that so many lists will be ridiculous.
Now here's the kicker. There was a mention of referencing to a size chart when using a unbound army. So it seems like the "Riptide Spam" army could be totally out of the question, just because its a larger model. The problem is that if you have 28 Librarians or 100 Eldar jet bikes, those are much smaller than a Riptide or Wraithknight. So, is this a ploy to target specific codecies and make them a lot more relevant competitively with the new edition? (Like Eldar need any more help there )
True, but they're the same internal dimensions. I'm just hoping I don't need to toss my existing templates.
Actually, those lightning looking templates are a bit bigger than the standard ones. About 1/4 inch iirc
“Internal” being the key here. If you set your old templates inside the new, lighting ones, they should match. If you measure from the outside, they are a bit bigger.
That said, there has been some scale creep over the years. I remember taking my 3rd ed templates and putting them on top of my newer ones (4th ed?, might have been a friend’s 5th) and having them turn out to be a few mm smaller. Not enough to really impact a game, but sometimes all you need is that extra little bit...
With people being able to play anything they want? Especially at lower points values, this could actually make it easier for new players to pick up any product and go.
Although I can see the long chain of emails with some of my friends to "negotiate a game."
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Although I can see the long chain of emails with some of my friends to "negotiate a game."
"Alright Jimmy. I've got your mother buried somewhere in the Tri-state area with enough air to last 24 hours. Now will you finally give up on that Riptide Unbound list for tomorrow's game?"
"Alright Jimmy. I've got your mother buried somewhere in the Tri-state area with enough air to last 24 hours. Now will you finally give up on that Riptide Unbound list for tomorrow's game?"
The best part is when he DOES acquiesce, and you can be all like, "well, to be fair, it wasn't that hard to do. She's into stuff like that, if you get what I mean..."
"Alright Jimmy. I've got your mother buried somewhere in the Tri-state area with enough air to last 24 hours. Now will you finally give up on that Riptide Unbound list for tomorrow's game?"
The best part is when he DOES acquiesce, and you can be all like, "well, to be fair, it wasn't that hard to do. She's into stuff like that, if you get what I mean..."
"Alright Jimmy. I've got your mother buried somewhere in the Tri-state area with enough air to last 24 hours. Now will you finally give up on that Riptide Unbound list for tomorrow's game?"
The best part is when he DOES acquiesce, and you can be all like, "well, to be fair, it wasn't that hard to do. She's into stuff like that, if you get what I mean..."
As someone mentioned before the only positive thing from Unbound lists will be to play at very low points level were some armies struggled having to pick an expensive hq other than that I imagine it will be a disaster for pick up games and not so much for gaming with regular opponents where things can be arranged in advance.
Sad thing is that for every interesting Unbound list like an all DKK Deathrider army there will be 10 lists full with 27 hellturkeys.
So, if the 4th one is gong to be "there is only war" who want's to make a guess as to whats going to be on the poster that has the label, "No Forgiveness". I'm guessing, space marines.
Idolator wrote: So, if the 4th one is gong to be "there is only war" who want's to make a guess as to whats going to be on the poster that has the label, "No Forgiveness". I'm guessing, space marines.
I'd only predicted 3 earlier (I assumed they'd stop with the posters when the book comes out), but with CSM being the last ones I'm definitely going with Marines as the next one. They'll either get "No Forgiveness" or "No Mercy".
Idolator wrote: So, if the 4th one is gong to be "there is only war" who want's to make a guess as to whats going to be on the poster that has the label, "No Forgiveness". I'm guessing, space marines.
I'd only predicted 3 earlier (I assumed they'd stop with the posters when the book comes out), but with CSM being the last ones I'm definitely going with Marines as the next one. They'll either get "No Forgiveness" or "No Mercy".
Hasn't that been their tag line for a long time?.."There is no time for peace, No respite, No Forgiveness, There is only War!"
Idolator wrote: So, if the 4th one is gong to be "there is only war" who want's to make a guess as to whats going to be on the poster that has the label, "No Forgiveness". I'm guessing, space marines.
I'd only predicted 3 earlier (I assumed they'd stop with the posters when the book comes out), but with CSM being the last ones I'm definitely going with Marines as the next one. They'll either get "No Forgiveness" or "No Mercy".
Hasn't that been their tag line for a long time?.."There is no time for peace, No respite, No Forgiveness, There is only War!"
I think there are a couple permutations but my brain is so full of stuff for finals I could be misremembering things right now.
I imagine next edition will be an even better more epic style of play.
No FOC no point's sytem and everything scoring, literally play anything and everything
also adds in an exciting new phase called the epic phase, once per a game each opponent can sacrifice their entire turn to roll a d3 on the epic chart, althogh the following armies cannot use this awesome phase= chaos space marines, tyranids, sisters of battle, dark angels, score goes as follows
1. power of the dark gods, sacrifice your phsyker for a trio of bloodthirsters
2. for the greater good, a trio of riptides immieditely arrives on the table, cannot assault but can immeditely fire every weapon at full BS
3 In the emperor we trust, a mighty war titan arrives on the battlefield and your opponent immeditaely loses, you may also with your opponents permission (or not) stamp the reaver titan on your opponents figures to simulate the awesomeness of the emperors divine will
Idolator wrote: So, if the 4th one is gong to be "there is only war" who want's to make a guess as to whats going to be on the poster that has the label, "No Forgiveness". I'm guessing, space marines.
I'd only predicted 3 earlier (I assumed they'd stop with the posters when the book comes out), but with CSM being the last ones I'm definitely going with Marines as the next one. They'll either get "No Forgiveness" or "No Mercy".
Hasn't that been their tag line for a long time?.."There is no time for peace, No respite, No Forgiveness, There is only War!"
Bah, they should make the orks their poster-boyz. The tag line would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! and the second and third poster would contain nothing but multiple 'A's.
Idolator wrote: So, if the 4th one is gong to be "there is only war" who want's to make a guess as to whats going to be on the poster that has the label, "No Forgiveness". I'm guessing, space marines.
I'd only predicted 3 earlier (I assumed they'd stop with the posters when the book comes out), but with CSM being the last ones I'm definitely going with Marines as the next one. They'll either get "No Forgiveness" or "No Mercy".
Hasn't that been their tag line for a long time?.."There is no time for peace, No respite, No Forgiveness, There is only War!"
Bah, they should make the orks their poster-boyz. The tag line would be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! and the second and third poster would contain nothing but multiple 'A's.
notprop wrote: Can we kill this thread? The news is confirmed and it seems to have been infested with the kids from GW stores that have Waaaagh Tourettes.
Sorry for not taking the game of toy soldiers as seriously as you think it should be. Let's all act maturely and insult people instead.
I really hope the "random" victory points objectives give you some choice like Malifaux as opposed to, "Use you FA to go get this. OH LOL YOU DON'T HAVE FA HAHAHA YOU USUCKNOOB"
Presumably the WD that these pics are from is out tomorrow? Someone might get it early, and be able to post the full side bar about Ezekial summoning a Bloodthirster, at least?
streamdragon wrote: Presumably the WD that these pics are from is out tomorrow? Someone might get it early, and be able to post the full side bar about Ezekial summoning a Bloodthirster, at least?
I've already gotten mine. The text below just talks about how the designers make fun of Adam when he tries to claim how pure his dark angels are now. It also says that they'll go over demonology more next week.
mitch_rifle wrote: I imagine next edition will be an even better more epic style of play.
No FOC no point's sytem and everything scoring, literally play anything and everything
also adds in an exciting new phase called the epic phase, once per a game each opponent can sacrifice their entire turn to roll a d3 on the epic chart, althogh the following armies cannot use this awesome phase= chaos space marines, tyranids, sisters of battle, dark angels, score goes as follows
1. power of the dark gods, sacrifice your phsyker for a trio of bloodthirsters
2. for the greater good, a trio of riptides immieditely arrives on the table, cannot assault but can immeditely fire every weapon at full BS
3 In the emperor we trust, a mighty war titan arrives on the battlefield and your opponent immeditaely loses, you may also with your opponents permission (or not) stamp the reaver titan on your opponents figures to simulate the awesomeness of the emperors divine will
Yes... nothing costs points... let me just place this phantom titan here and these 2 revenants there and the rest of my 15000 what used to be called points of army over there... how many models were you playing with again? oh only 40? well i guess that won't make a long match against my 400...
Not too sure I like what I'm hearing about the new rules but at least it gives me a chance to dust off the old 40k army... I guess the force org chart has been obsolete for a while now anyways
notprop wrote: Can we kill this thread? The news is confirmed and it seems to have been infested with the kids from GW stores that have Waaaagh Tourettes.
Sorry for not taking the game of toy soldiers as seriously as you think it should be. Let's all act maturely and insult people instead.
Someone's being a grumpy head, the smiley in the post was the clue.
mitch_rifle wrote: I imagine next edition will be an even better more epic style of play.
No FOC no point's sytem and everything scoring, literally play anything and everything
also adds in an exciting new phase called the epic phase, once per a game each opponent can sacrifice their entire turn to roll a d3 on the epic chart, althogh the following armies cannot use this awesome phase= chaos space marines, tyranids, sisters of battle, dark angels, score goes as follows
1. power of the dark gods, sacrifice your phsyker for a trio of bloodthirsters
2. for the greater good, a trio of riptides immieditely arrives on the table, cannot assault but can immeditely fire every weapon at full BS
3 In the emperor we trust, a mighty war titan arrives on the battlefield and your opponent immeditaely loses, you may also with your opponents permission (or not) stamp the reaver titan on your opponents figures to simulate the awesomeness of the emperors divine will
Yes... nothing costs points... let me just place this phantom titan here and these 2 revenants there and the rest of my 15000 what used to be called points of army over there... how many models were you playing with again? oh only 40? well i guess that won't make a long match against my 400...
Amusingly in the original Adeptus Titanicus the Titans themselves did not cost points, only the weapons with which you equipped them. A bare naked Titan body -- with void shields and improvised H2H attack -- cost nothing, so you could have an infinite number of them.
Kilkrazy wrote: Amusingly in the original Adeptus Titanicus the Titans themselves did not cost points, only the weapons with which you equipped them. A bare naked Titan body -- with void shields and improvised H2H attack -- cost nothing, so you could have an infinite number of them.
Ha I love Adeptus Titanicus still, and I never realized this. Man I wish I enjoyed GW's recent games as I did AT/SMv1. Or still do, I still have both sets. Actually I have every set released for Epic.
Kilkrazy, I noticed the Japanese flag next to your name... assuming you are in Japan, what is the GW scene there like?
As far as the starter set goes, it seems really light. Prob the worst since 3rd ed. I can't believe they couldnt throw in a killer kan or ork dreadnought at least. At Space Marines over scouts. And only 3 scenarios???? Lazy.
mitch_rifle wrote: I imagine next edition will be an even better more epic style of play.
No FOC no point's sytem and everything scoring, literally play anything and everything
also adds in an exciting new phase called the epic phase, once per a game each opponent can sacrifice their entire turn to roll a d3 on the epic chart, althogh the following armies cannot use this awesome phase= chaos space marines, tyranids, sisters of battle, dark angels, score goes as follows
1. power of the dark gods, sacrifice your phsyker for a trio of bloodthirsters
2. for the greater good, a trio of riptides immieditely arrives on the table, cannot assault but can immeditely fire every weapon at full BS
3 In the emperor we trust, a mighty war titan arrives on the battlefield and your opponent immeditaely loses, you may also with your opponents permission (or not) stamp the reaver titan on your opponents figures to simulate the awesomeness of the emperors divine will
streamdragon wrote: Presumably the WD that these pics are from is out tomorrow? Someone might get it early, and be able to post the full side bar about Ezekial summoning a Bloodthirster, at least?
Sounds like a cheep excuse mechanic to sell more chaos demons...
streamdragon wrote: Presumably the WD that these pics are from is out tomorrow? Someone might get it early, and be able to post the full side bar about Ezekial summoning a Bloodthirster, at least?
Sounds like a cheep excuse mechanic to sell more chaos demons...
I have a swarmlord laying around I would proxy. Don't need to use specific models even if it came down to it.
I just can't figure out how this is supposed to attract new people to the hobby.
Sure, Unbound does allow you to 'play with the models you have', but only in one, very specific way.
You are still limited by the Allies chart AND by regular unit restrictions. So, it's liberating to allow someone to field their units of scouts and bikes, but there's no one out there who might want to field 6 SM with a heavy bolter? It just seems like if you would want to give players more freedom to field their collections, when there are unit restrictions that are at least as constraining. Ten Land Raiders? Totally legal. Four terminators? Sorry, that's outside the rules, and relegated to house ruling.
The only thing I can think of is that (in a very cynical and calculating way), GW is thinking they are giving a hoot about the mild-mannered gamer and shafting the highly competitive, list-building players (as they see them). They aren't putting anything in the rules to encourage you to, say, make a unit of marines all armed with grav guns, because they all know that won't be legal in the next edition. So, the casual player isn't tempted to assemble normal units he purchases in ways that will be unplayable later.
On the other hand, the (GW-perceived) WAAC douche will buy up six Riptides, or 8 Helldrakes, or whatever cheese is legal with Unbound armies, and GW thinks, "Screw that guy anyway. We're happy to take his cash. Who cares if his army isn't allowed in tournaments, or if he can't find players, or if we make Unbound Armies illegal in the next edition we are already working on. Those guys are spankers so screw them."
I can almost imagine the dev team thinking, "This rule is broken as hell. The only people who are going to rush out and buy shedloads of new models to exploit it are the hypercompetitive jerks who keep complaining about our rules. If they field these totally ridiculous armies, no one will play them. Serves them right. We get their money, and they can't get a game. The people who use the Unbound rule to build up an interesting, fun army will still have it when we change the rules, and those 'cool people' will have cool friends who let them use it regardless of the rules."
Not that I agree with this sentiment at all, of course. While you will have the guy who drops serious cash to buy the latest and greatest most cheesy list, you will also have a lot of players who get disillusioned with a bad edition and leave, and new players who get taken apart by a imbalanced list and lose interest. You'll also have a lot of people who don't encounter the worst TFG, but get enough bad, pointless games thanks to a poorly designed edition that they go elsewhere.
Da Butcha wrote: I just can't figure out how this is supposed to attract new people to the hobby.
It's not. It's meant to get all the existing players to pay for the game rules again. That's the point of this whole exercise.
Sure, Unbound does allow you to 'play with the models you have', but only in one, very specific way.
In edition to getting all the players to buy the rules yet again, it expands the range of possible kits that can be sold to a given player. Instead of being limited to a FOC and one army, you have no FOC and allies. 6th edition started the allies progression and 7th unbound armies will expand the legal units per player even further.
It's directly connected with GW's sales coming from new releases. When an army gets updated and they come out with some new kits, if you don't play that army, they have zero potential sales. Now they have allies rules and ignore the FOC rules and each new release is wide open as far as the guy at the local GW putting the product in your hands and telling you it would be awesome in your army.
Da Butcha wrote: I just can't figure out how this is supposed to attract new people to the hobby.
Sure, Unbound does allow you to 'play with the models you have', but only in one, very specific way.
In my experience, the number one thing that turns people off from playing is list building. I have a bunch of friends that like to play (with my models, proxies) and are intrigued by the models (some even paint), but building lists is always the breakdown point for them. I LIKE building lists, but some people don't- for various reasons
"I don't want to make a bad list, I don't know enough about the game"
"I don't get this chart"
"I feel like I'm doing my taxes"
Now I just write all the lists, and we play a lot more often. I feel like Unbound would help people with that kind of mentality.
Da Butcha wrote: I just can't figure out how this is supposed to attract new people to the hobby.
Sure, Unbound does allow you to 'play with the models you have', but only in one, very specific way.
In my experience, the number one thing that turns people off from playing is list building. I have a bunch of friends that like to play (with my models, proxies) and are intrigued by the models (some even paint), but building lists is always the breakdown point for them. I LIKE building lists, but some people don't- for various reasons
"I don't want to make a bad list, I don't know enough about the game"
"I don't get this chart"
"I feel like I'm doing my taxes"
Now I just write all the lists, and we play a lot more often. I feel like Unbound would help people with that kind of mentality.
In my experience I've seen just the opposite. Me and my friends love theoryhammering together different lists before deciding on one to actually build. I know for a fact one of my mates used to enjoy just sitting in front of army builder for hours on end making different army lists for WHFB for different armies and such.
Now, actually maintaining focus on ONE list long enough to paint all the models for it, yeah, that's a slightly harder task, lol.
Most those friends have quit now though, I have a feeling they'd be put off by the excessively convoluted nature of what 40k is now and never reach the list building stage because they wouldn't be arsed reading all the rules first.
zombiekila707 wrote: I heard the 7th edition is coming kinda bummed cause Orks still need a codex...
Orks are not far off, and are going to be awesome.
-ly bland.
FTFY,... the last few books on the 40k and Fantasy side have been incredibly bland and have taken little to no risks. They are as vanilla as can be and then get life added with datadumps.
Da Butcha wrote: I just can't figure out how this is supposed to attract new people to the hobby.
Sure, Unbound does allow you to 'play with the models you have', but only in one, very specific way.
You are still limited by the Allies chart AND by regular unit restrictions. So, it's liberating to allow someone to field their units of scouts and bikes, but there's no one out there who might want to field 6 SM with a heavy bolter? It just seems like if you would want to give players more freedom to field their collections, when there are unit restrictions that are at least as constraining. Ten Land Raiders? Totally legal. Four terminators? Sorry, that's outside the rules, and relegated to house ruling.
The article mentions new players being able to play sooner because they can use what they have, rather than needing to buy and build specific models.
Well according to rumours........ The 7th starter is blood angels and orks w/ bits of terrain too. Which got me thinking..... why does GW fail to grab market share with multiple sets of a starter box? For example Eldar/Nids w/ some Iyanden terrain would have been $$. Or DE/Tau and their failed diplomacy experience. Great way to show of grotesques! Both of those were all new stuff and a great way to capitalize on their "thematic" games.
streamdragon wrote: The article mentions new players being able to play sooner because they can use what they have, rather than needing to buy and build specific models.
Unbound will be an interesting way to show new players the game, in my opinion. People like some stuff that can be inviable because of FOC. testing the units and the rules of the game with unbound would help them understand the game and select which units they like. After that, they go to the Battle-forged way of gaming. Unbound could be used as a 'super-tutorial'.
I`m worried... I like force organization because it gives me balance to my army. I`ve played apocalypse games where everyone just brings the biggest guns and that's it. I don`t want regular games to turn into something like that.
I dislike the current edition more because everyone seems to be a shooty army these days. Tyranids shouldn`t be able to outshoot tau at 24 inches for example.
Ultimately I guess we will just have to see: if its as bad as I fear, there could be 6000 pts of tau for sale very soon...
mjl7atlas wrote: Well according to rumours........ The 7th starter is blood angels and orks w/ bits of terrain too. Which got me thinking..... why does GW fail to grab market share with multiple sets of a starter box? For example Eldar/Nids w/ some Iyanden terrain would have been $$. Or DE/Tau and their failed diplomacy experience. Great way to show of grotesques! Both of those were all new stuff and a great way to capitalize on their "thematic" games.
The starter sets are usually the cheapest way to amass basic troops. I did it to get a marine army started back in the AoBR days. While selling a cheap set is good for getting the new people started, they probably don't want to give everyone a cheap means of padding out their existing armies.
I also don't think nearly as many people would be a DE/Tau set or a Eldar/Nids set as you think there would be, except for the aforementioned vet players looking for more models on the cheap. Remember: Almost every sort of franchise media (video games, the movie, books) is Marine (or at least Imperium)-centric. The starter set MUST contain marines.
mjl7atlas wrote: Well according to rumours........ The 7th starter is blood angels and orks w/ bits of terrain too. Which got me thinking..... why does GW fail to grab market share with multiple sets of a starter box? For example Eldar/Nids w/ some Iyanden terrain would have been $$. Or DE/Tau and their failed diplomacy experience. Great way to show of grotesques! Both of those were all new stuff and a great way to capitalize on their "thematic" games.
It's what I've been quitely thinking too, in regards to the Eldar and Imperial Guard comprising of another starter set.
Starters seems to do well for GW so having two out makes sense if they want a short term boost for the end of year reports, if what I've read around here of the company being in dire straits is true of course.
It added nothing good and took away a lot of what people like (artillery variants and lots of named characters, for example). Besides which, even if the consensus was that it was good (pretty sure it wasn't) I was obviously putting forward my own opinion, and didn't claim to be doing anything more.
Da Butcha wrote: I just can't figure out how this is supposed to attract new people to the hobby.
Sure, Unbound does allow you to 'play with the models you have', but only in one, very specific way.
You are still limited by the Allies chart AND by regular unit restrictions. So, it's liberating to allow someone to field their units of scouts and bikes, but there's no one out there who might want to field 6 SM with a heavy bolter? It just seems like if you would want to give players more freedom to field their collections, when there are unit restrictions that are at least as constraining. Ten Land Raiders? Totally legal. Four terminators? Sorry, that's outside the rules, and relegated to house ruling.
The article mentions new players being able to play sooner because they can use what they have, rather than needing to buy and build specific models.
Which is just silly, because everyone knows that anyone who walks into a GW store for the first time will be so struck by the awesumsnez of the game and the truly world-class FineSalesman patter from the staff(singular) that they all walk out again five minutes later with a complete army's worth of purchases.
It added nothing good and took away a lot of what people like (artillery variants and lots of named characters, for example). Besides which, even if the consensus was that it was good (pretty sure it wasn't) I was obviously putting forward my own opinion, and didn't claim to be doing anything more.
Its good. You clearly have a very narrow sample of IG players.
It added nothing good and took away a lot of what people like (artillery variants and lots of named characters, for example). Besides which, even if the consensus was that it was good (pretty sure it wasn't) I was obviously putting forward my own opinion, and didn't claim to be doing anything more.
Well, at least now I have a good idea of how much I should listen to your opinions.
I'm not backpedalling, I think it was a piece of gak, but it doesn't bear much relevance to the topic. Cheers for the insults though peeps, that's lovely
streamdragon wrote: The article mentions new players being able to play sooner because they can use what they have, rather than needing to buy and build specific models.
Unbound will be an interesting way to show new players the game, in my opinion. People like some stuff that can be inviable because of FOC. testing the units and the rules of the game with unbound would help them understand the game and select which units they like. After that, they go to the Battle-forged way of gaming. Unbound could be used as a 'super-tutorial'.
Agreed. It also helps with new players who might operate under the "buy what looks cool" method of force building, since rather than force them to buy specific models, they can continue to just buy what they want.
Da Butcha wrote: I just can't figure out how this is supposed to attract new people to the hobby.
Sure, Unbound does allow you to 'play with the models you have', but only in one, very specific way.
You are still limited by the Allies chart AND by regular unit restrictions. So, it's liberating to allow someone to field their units of scouts and bikes, but there's no one out there who might want to field 6 SM with a heavy bolter? It just seems like if you would want to give players more freedom to field their collections, when there are unit restrictions that are at least as constraining. Ten Land Raiders? Totally legal. Four terminators? Sorry, that's outside the rules, and relegated to house ruling.
The article mentions new players being able to play sooner because they can use what they have, rather than needing to buy and build specific models.
Which is just silly, because everyone knows that anyone who walks into a GW store for the first time will be so struck by the awesumsnez of the game and the truly world-class FineSalesman patter from the staff(singular) that they all walk out again five minutes later with a complete army's worth of purchases.
Going to admit, I couldn't figure out if your post is sarcastic agreement or disagreement. I think you agree with me? I need more caffeine...
Is there a quick way to get a list of everyone who's commented on this thread? This feels like a homecoming and family reunion all rolled into one! I like it !
All this proves is that I was right to stipulate that I'm in no way a barometer for the "consensus" on a product. But I still think it sucks. Am I the only one that converted a Lukas Bastonne? And people in the IG thread were seriously losing their gak over the removal of Griffons, Chenkov, etc. Anyway, Orks will likely be more of the same, so if you're happy with bland, homogenized crap, you're going to love it.
Why? IG isn't super-broken by any stretch of the imagination, but it appears to still be a solid codex based upon everything I've read and seen.
It may well be a 'competitive' codex but its still the same old lifeless dross that I have come to expect from GW. Most importantly the IG have been named Astra Militarum, that's unforgivable. 'Ork' is also a generic name so I fully expect the new Ork codex to be renamed something 'inspired' like Barbari Fungal.
Bull0 wrote: All this proves is that I was right to stipulate that I'm in no way a barometer for the "consensus" on a product. But I still think it sucks. Am I the only one that converted a Lukas Bastonne? And people in the IG thread were seriously losing their gak over the removal of Griffons, Chenkov, etc. Anyway, Orks will likely be more of the same, so if you're happy with bland, homogenized crap, you're going to love it.
I have a converted Al-rahem and a converted Bastonne. They're now a company commander with power sword and plasma pistol, and a veteran sergeant.
It sucks that they're gone, and I miss being able to use them for their rules. I still can't feel how you do about the codex and still feel like I'm being objective.
Why? IG isn't super-broken by any stretch of the imagination, but it appears to still be a solid codex based upon everything I've read and seen.
It may well be a 'competitive' codex but its still the same old lifeless dross that I have come to expect from GW. Most importantly the IG have been named Astra Militarum, that's unforgivable. 'Ork' is also a generic name so I fully expect the new Ork codex to be renamed something 'inspired' like Barbari Fungal.
Okay, you got me on the rename. That's actually pretty horrible.
I didn't play IG back during their 3rd edition codex, really, the only codex I played that was ever a 3rd ed was DH, so when people talk about the good old days with the character and good fluff, I don't really know what the good old days actually mean.
As I think about it. It seems that if GWs agenda is to let people play whatever they wanted, then trying to balance the game would be the best approach. If it was balanced people were truly going to be able to field whatever. As it is now being a daemon player unbound does nothing for me regarding fielding nurglings or masque for example which are models I would have wanted to buy, its just, they cant be used.
I say GW is pretty stupid. Not stupid in the bashing sense, just stupid in the sense of not having their synapse-grey-brainy-cells (its a medical term) working optimal.
MWHistorian wrote: I've recently turned pretty anti-Gw, but even I thought the IG codex was pretty good. (Hydra is useless and removing the characters was lame, though.)
Hydra isn't "useless" it's just not as good now that it doesn't ignore Jink saves (assuming Jink saves don't change in the next edition). It can still hit Skimmers and Flyers at no penalty and still drops plenty of lead into the air to kill things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually that's a thought: what if Skyfire ignores Jink saves in the future instead? If Snapfire becomes less painful (as some have talked about possibly happening in the past, even if it might be wishlisting) then changing what Skyfire does isn't unreasonable.
Why? IG isn't super-broken by any stretch of the imagination, but it appears to still be a solid codex based upon everything I've read and seen.
It may well be a 'competitive' codex but its still the same old lifeless dross that I have come to expect from GW. Most importantly the IG have been named Astra Militarum, that's unforgivable. 'Ork' is also a generic name so I fully expect the new Ork codex to be renamed something 'inspired' like Barbari Fungal.
Bull0 wrote: All this proves is that I was right to stipulate that I'm in no way a barometer for the "consensus" on a product. But I still think it sucks. Am I the only one that converted a Lukas Bastonne? And people in the IG thread were seriously losing their gak over the removal of Griffons, Chenkov, etc. Anyway, Orks will likely be more of the same, so if you're happy with bland, homogenized crap, you're going to love it.
Special Characters can disappear altogether for all I care, I come from a time before them, gamed through the time they were optional (and our group never took them) and only recently watched them become necessary for certain lists to become unlocked.
If they did away with a SC, it's a shame for someone who used it, but the model can still be used for something else, even if it's just a crewman on a vehicle.
Doing away with units, however, is a different matter and if I'd laid out the money for FW artillery for my Imperial Guard and they'd removed them from the Codex I'd be pissed off. (I am actually buying FW artillery as we speak, but building the FW Armoured Battlegroup to use them).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Palindrome wrote: 'Ork' is also a generic name so I fully expect the new Ork codex to be renamed something 'inspired' like Barbari Fungal.
Orks getting a 'rename' was mulled over and rejected... But it was mulled over.
Been going through the IG codex and I say it is good... with a few complaints because I would not be me:
Spoiler:
Good:
- Can make a large "armored fist" type army easily, I found I ran through points quick when you field many veterans and tanks. Tank Commander is a good thing.
- Many great ways to field a TON of troops if you want the infantry horde, the tweaks to the Priests and Commissars are good for keeping the guys stuck-in. This is also where the new orders and warlord traits really shine: I think this army type will be the one to watch.
- Armored Sentinals with plasma = 50pts each... same as a Hvy Bolter attack bike.
- Being able to get Divination is a boon BUT 50 pts base, this is competing with Inquisitors with servo skulls so may only be fielded for giggles.
- New artillery tank is a horde killer: if you are 4+ save or less they will ruin your day.
- For one point get a bolter on a sgt who can do precision shots. It is a tiny almost freebie that I cannot wait to see how it does. It is like kills from Rhino storm bolters.
Bad:
- The forge-world exclusive artillery has been ripped out. I LIKE my artillery, my converted Medusa in particular... Oh well.
- Our poor AA gun is so bad I just cannot see any other way than fielding the Aegis line with quad gun.
- Vendetta... not really bad, points made sense, kinda hurt with the reduced capacity.
- Why do I only see using in the Elite section Ratling Snipers or on occasion Scions deep-striking in. Points to effectiveness just seems lost.
- Cost increase and shot decrease on the Chimera, never really saw a need for balancing.
- Marbo, the one-shot kill anything and possibly himself wonder of the IG, he will be missed.
- The real issue I have is to get around the common BS 3 shooting, they do not have assault mass firing like Orks so I scrounge around for templates or twin linked: very few spots to find. That is how the orders become critical.
Funny, I am reminded of this definition: "Compromise: When you reach a point where neither group is happy."
If the IG or AM codex is any reflection on the GW mindset now, I would be interested to see if any attempt to reduce the power combos or the "deal" models is addressed.
I suspect they will just find more ways to allow "fluffy" lists and no real tightening will happen but IG seems like it is "good" but shines with Allies.
We shall see, but I still think the timing is just a Kirby requirement to save his bottom line, lets hope the rules writers treat this as an "opportunity".
I shall return to my usually griping.
The new IG codex is good in the sense that it's power-level on a competitive scale is more or less the same, perhaps a tad bit better.
The IG codex is bad in the sense that they removed a lot of content but replaced them with very little. From a fluff perspective, it's as bland and uninspired as the last few codices have been (Tau codex is the only book that's been on the mark in that regard), and as mentioned earlier, it did very little to shake up the game.
So, meh. Depends on what perspective you look at it from. If you're a competitive player you might be pleased, it's just a very boring codex though, all around.
BlaxicanX wrote: The new IG codex is good in the sense that it's power-level on a competitive scale is more or less the same, perhaps a tad bit better.
The IG codex is bad in the sense that they removed a lot of content but replaced them with very little. From a fluff perspective, it's as bland and uninspired as the last few codices have been (Tau codex is the only book that's been on the mark in that regard), and as mentioned earlier, it did very little to shake up the game.
What does that even mean? Did you actually WANT the codex to be a powercreep that shattered the meta and made everyone else's armies' useless? Cause I am sick of that crap.
BlaxicanX wrote: The new IG codex is good in the sense that it's power-level on a competitive scale is more or less the same, perhaps a tad bit better.
The IG codex is bad in the sense that they removed a lot of content but replaced them with very little. From a fluff perspective, it's as bland and uninspired as the last few codices have been (Tau codex is the only book that's been on the mark in that regard), and as mentioned earlier, it did very little to shake up the game.
What does that even mean? Did you actually WANT the codex to be a powercreep that shattered the meta and made everyone else's armies' useless? Cause I am sick of that crap.
I think the idea is it did little to change the current issue of Tau and Eldar running rampant because it doesn't really provide any tools to really make those armies less likely to stop bringing some of the nonsense they do (like how Tau provided a strong answer for Heldrake spam, resulting in those armies largely falling out of the competitive scene). A good book doesn't need to challenge the entire meta, but if it provides the right tools it can help balance the more "must have" options some armies have and smooth the game's balance out a bit more competitively.
What does that even mean? Did you actually WANT the codex to be a powercreep that shattered the meta and made everyone else's armies' useless? Cause I am sick of that crap.
Actually, I kind of do, under the assumption that for every one codex that's somewhat reasonable, there's 3 more made after it that will be completely unhinged.
Don't want to end up with my IG army looking like my DA army once the next codex comes out, after all.
I can't believe people still use the word 'meta' regarding 40K. There is no universal meta to 40K since every small community allows, bans and restricts different things, and with this upcoming edition change it will only change to the worse.
I suspect every type of unit will be scoring in 7th edition. Just like the Knights are. What'll be the new meta then? The only thing I'm sure of is that the meta will include no infantry models whatsoever. Unless of course you're talking about some 'local Bay area meta' where guys who host battle reports on youtube decide what's legal in 40K and what isn't.
There's no point trying to sugar coat 7th edition. The guys at GW aren't even trying to make it seem like they're designing a game. They're just throwing random rules on paper and telling you to complete the set yourself. Points costs are essentially pointless in a game where Titans and Fortifications are allowed and no type of FoC exists. Because it makes no sense is why I'm absolutely certain that's what 7th edition will be all about.
BlaxicanX wrote: The new IG codex is good in the sense that it's power-level on a competitive scale is more or less the same, perhaps a tad bit better.
The IG codex is bad in the sense that they removed a lot of content but replaced them with very little. From a fluff perspective, it's as bland and uninspired as the last few codices have been (Tau codex is the only book that's been on the mark in that regard), and as mentioned earlier, it did very little to shake up the game.
What does that even mean? Did you actually WANT the codex to be a powercreep that shattered the meta and made everyone else's armies' useless? Cause I am sick of that crap.
>States that the codex is good for competitive players because it has a good power level.
>Is asked if he wanted it to shatter the meta.
I said I wanted it to shake up the game. I mentioned nothing about the meta.
There's more to a codex than it' competitive power, as hard as that may be to imagine.
ClockworkZion wrote: Actually that's a thought: what if Skyfire ignores Jink saves in the future instead? If Snapfire becomes less painful (as some have talked about possibly happening in the past, even if it might be wishlisting) then changing what Skyfire does isn't unreasonable.
Eh, just a random thought.
That makes Markerlight use even better. No need to expend 2 to ignore Dive/Jink from flyers. I'm all for it
ClockworkZion wrote: Actually that's a thought: what if Skyfire ignores Jink saves in the future instead? If Snapfire becomes less painful (as some have talked about possibly happening in the past, even if it might be wishlisting) then changing what Skyfire does isn't unreasonable.
Eh, just a random thought.
That makes Markerlight use even better. No need to expend 2 to ignore Dive/Jink from flyers. I'm all for it
I'd assume that if it happens that way Markerlights would get an errata (they need a slight nerf anyways).
That is the best teaser trailer EVER for GW. Non of the other teasers got me excited. This one didn't really either, but I think it does a great job of making fun of themselves.
I have always said that 40k is a lifestyle, not just a game, and have had an open mind when it came to changes. 3rd edition was awesome, 4th edition was the worst thing ever (I played Dark Angels... thanks Jervis), 5th was better, and 6th has actually been challenging, more realistic, and fun! 6th edition created many changes (I know people don't like changes), but they all made the game more realistic.
My spending has slightly reduced over the years as GW has increased their prices and release rates ($50 a book - ouch). However GW is still healthy as a company and I had no worries for the future of 40k under 6th edition.
I have to say that I for one am a bit scared and off-put by 7th edition. Say hello to cheese armies everywhere (tau-dar armies full of riptides and farseers... entire armies of flying MCs, hellturkey armies, etc. The force organization chart made people have to think to create lists that could compete (both for fun and competitively) against many different armies. I know there will be bonuses for those who adhere to the chart, but those bonuses don't mean squat when you get curb stopped by an entire armored company. Well, that and I guess once again Codex Ultramarines has taken our all terminator army!
At least I found a new game - Wild West Exodus - that is a blast to play, cheaper to get into, the resin models are absolutely amazing (larger, much more detailed, and cheaper than finecrap), and I have no doubts about it's future success.
It will be interesting to see what happens to 40k now....
ClockworkZion wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually that's a thought: what if Skyfire ignores Jink saves in the future instead? If Snapfire becomes less painful (as some have talked about possibly happening in the past, even if it might be wishlisting) then changing what Skyfire does isn't unreasonable.
Eh, just a random thought.
Just going off this, one thing I really dislike is the "rules roulette" between editions, where some of your army will become randomly better, some will become randomly worse (and some will become nonfunctional if Chapterhouse got there first), and none of that will be reflected in the point costs,
Unbound: won't change a damn thing where I am, the change to foc will not affect our meta at all as we all will likely use the same things we always do.
Psychic phase: this will allow my mate's to actually defend against my buffs in my army and that's a good thing, it will allow me to do the same, buff spells have been far too easy to pull off for too long and now they will (hopefully) be in the same realm as the other spells.
Bring 9 Wyverns. Actually play the barrage rules as corrected in the FAQ.
Enjoy a 30 minute, or longer, shooting phase.
Winning game design!
if someone takes 30 mins to settle 36 dice.. something is wrong with them, orks been doing it faster in CC than anyone else.
if you gonna play this shenanigans own more than 1 scatter dice.
roll 4 at a time (the dice i got from adepticon have 4 sides with arrows on them so thatll do)
re roll misses or those that look to be bad scatters, dont feth about.
should take all of 2 mins to determine hits, wounds even less.
so 15 tops for all 3 units.
edit: and wait... still faster than green tide cos you dont need to move 100 models a turn... time to not worry about the dice rolls there.
still faster than orks and 3 units in CC with mobs o boys. (or atleast the same)
we have been rolling big numbers of dice for how long now.. no excsuses to be slow about it.
I just picked it up and nothing really jumped out, just another little poster in the middle, which actually looks cool. So I bought last weeks too just for the poster.
Big oooops! I think there is something about the new rules, I'll have to run to the car and grab it...
I just picked it up and nothing really jumped out, just another little poster in the middle, which actually looks cool. So I bought last weeks too just for the poster.
For people not following rumors it actually has a good amount of info, for the rest of us it's less useful.
And I'm collecting the posters too. I think they're look good in a row on my wall.
There was a Knight in todays WD, very sweet!
I like the Dwarf too it's been awesome thus far in the new format, just mentioned that there wasn't much as far as 40K rumors goes... only fourteen more days... to tell the truth I am as excited about this as a kid at Christmas.
to the haters.
I haven't seen the DA poster but on Dakka Dakka.
Almost got a box of DA Termies today... but I need to save for the end of the month for my pre-order mania.
Bring 9 Wyverns. Actually play the barrage rules as corrected in the FAQ.
Enjoy a 30 minute, or longer, shooting phase.
Winning game design!
if someone takes 30 mins to settle 36 dice.. something is wrong with them, orks been doing it faster in CC than anyone else.
if you gonna play this shenanigans own more than 1 scatter dice.
roll 4 at a time (the dice i got from adepticon have 4 sides with arrows on them so thatll do)
re roll misses or those that look to be bad scatters, dont feth about.
should take all of 2 mins to determine hits, wounds even less.
so 15 tops for all 3 units.
edit: and wait... still faster than green tide cos you dont need to move 100 models a turn... time to not worry about the dice rolls there.
still faster than orks and 3 units in CC with mobs o boys. (or atleast the same)
we have been rolling big numbers of dice for how long now.. no excsuses to be slow about it.
I like you.
More on topic, I've already had friends say they'll never play the game again. How this new edition has taken the problems of 6th and exacerbated them. Or how they don't want to have to fiddle with a percentage system. We haven't even seen any actual rules yet, much less any in context! Have we had anything confirmed other than that there are new psychic powers, and there are two types of list-building- Battle Forged and Unbound? Where did the percentage thing come from?
Kelly502 wrote: There was a Knight in todays WD, very sweet!
I like the Dwarf too it's been awesome thus far in the new format, just mentioned that there wasn't much as far as 40K rumors goes... only fourteen more days... to tell the truth I am as excited about this as a kid at Christmas.
to the haters.
I haven't seen the DA poster but on Dakka Dakka.
Almost got a box of DA Termies today... but I need to save for the end of the month for my pre-order mania.
Someone have a pic of the Knight poster? I forgot to pick up the WD today.
I can't wait!
GW and 40k has their problems but for me, the game has always been about fun, sitting down with some friends, having snacks and just rolling dice whilst insulting each others choices and paint schemes. With those complaining that GW isn't going to address deathstars, why would they? Without a doubt, if they did something to kill them off then players would find more broken combinations to abuse!
When you take a game more seriously than you should, those behaviours will always come out and loop holes, rule abuse, 'cheese' ect will always be found, Always! And yeah, 7th may not fix everything and it most certainly won't bring balance to the game, why? Because it would involve so much more work than you could possibly imagine. Taking every unit in existence, testing them with every rule in the book, re-writing the rule if it isn't balanced and then starting all over again, testing each unit from the very beginning, we would never have a new edition.
I have had the privileged of being able to attend several 'cons to demo various games from Yugioh, Pokemon, Huntik, Magic and many others (I like TCG's, RPGs and board games, alot) and each and every one of them had the 'cheese' and 'deathstars' of their system and even with ban lists, restrictions, TO rules, someone would always find way to break the game, it is what a competitive environment does to us as humans. I have done it and in some way you would have done it too, it's unavoidable.
But my point (Although it took a while to get here) is calm down, ebjoy the game no matter what it brings and use it to your advantage! Get some friends, have some fun and insult each other; it's how the game is supposed to be played.
Note: This isn't aimed at anyone nperticular, or is it meant to insult anyone. This is my feelings on the matter, my opinions, just like yours
If nothing else 7th has been entertaining for the hand wringing and teeth gnashing of the masses.
A new edition and a new codex (Orks) is going to keep me busy as hell for the next few months.
Rumors stay rumors. According to my local GW store: Hampton Village, Michigan, USA: GW will continue to beselling 6th edition and there are NO new plans for updating the rules, nor is there a need too. With that said, no 7th edition will be made. However, GW will be making a rules amendment and slight change to several rules. Just like with what they did with death from the skies. It`ll just be another book for sell comprising of several small changes, to the rules. Besidea that 7th edition would instantly all of GWs product line, making astra militarum a flop. My 2 cents.
Zarrath wrote: Rumors stay rumors. According to my local GW store: Hampton Village, Michigan, USA: GW will continue to beselling 6th edition and there are NO new plans for updating the rules, nor is there a need too. With that said, no 7th edition will be made. However, GW will be making a rules amendment and slight change to several rules. Just like with what they did with death from the skies. It`ll just be another book for sell comprising of several small changes, to the rules. Besidea that 7th edition would instantly all of GWs product line, making astra militarum a flop. My 2 cents.
You realize that we have confirmation of 7th edition direct from GW, right? Your local store employee might be banned from talking about it because it hasn't been officially announced yet, but 7th edition is indisputable fact.
Zarrath wrote: Rumors stay rumors. ... GW will continue to beselling 6th edition and there are NO new plans for updating the rules
I have WD Issue 15 in my hand and it specifically refers to "a new edition of" 40k in several places. 6th has been pulled from the shelves. 7th is happening.on 24 May.
Zarrath wrote: Rumors stay rumors. According to my local GW store: Hampton Village, Michigan, USA: GW will continue to beselling 6th edition and there are NO new plans for updating the rules, nor is there a need too. With that said, no 7th edition will be made. However, GW will be making a rules amendment and slight change to several rules. Just like with what they did with death from the skies. It`ll just be another book for sell comprising of several small changes, to the rules. Besidea that 7th edition would instantly all of GWs product line, making astra militarum a flop. My 2 cents.
You realize that we have confirmation of 7th edition direct from GW, right? Your local store employee might be banned from talking about it because it hasn't been officially announced yet, but 7th edition is indisputable fact.
This. The new WD even says that:
24 May sees the launch of a new edition of the game, which is packed with new rules additions that make the grim darkness of the far future even more enjoyable.
Zarrath wrote: Rumors stay rumors. According to my local GW store: Hampton Village, Michigan, USA: GW will continue to beselling 6th edition and there are NO new plans for updating the rules, nor is there a need too. With that said, no 7th edition will be made. However, GW will be making a rules amendment and slight change to several rules. Just like with what they did with death from the skies. It`ll just be another book for sell comprising of several small changes, to the rules. Besidea that 7th edition would instantly all of GWs product line, making astra militarum a flop. My 2 cents.
Well, I guess I'll just take your local store manager's word (according to you, anyway) over the copy of White Dwarf that I've had in hand for the last two days, then. Silly me, buying into the specious rumors.
Normal force organization is Battle-Forged, when you use this type of force you get some sort of bonuses. Then the aforementioned Unbound Armies which allows you to take whatever you want from your collection, while still adhering to unit sizes. New allies matrix. There is six new Maelstrom of War Missions, using a suite of 36 Tactical Obj cards that apparently will change the way we play Warhammer. Oh you can discard one unwanted Tactical Objective per turn. Thus changing the battle for you. Yes, Psykers will be able to summon the fell denizens of the warp to do their bidding.. (not cool for me...yet) However if you are not demon spawn the cost is high... The 17th of May they promise more to feed our curiosity.
I'll bet Battle Forged is going to be great! I am curious what bonuses one gets for having that type of force.
Zarrath wrote: Rumors stay rumors. According to my local GW store: Hampton Village, Michigan, USA: GW will continue to beselling 6th edition and there are NO new plans for updating the rules, nor is there a need too. With that said, no 7th edition will be made. However, GW will be making a rules amendment and slight change to several rules. Just like with what they did with death from the skies. It`ll just be another book for sell comprising of several small changes, to the rules. Besidea that 7th edition would instantly all of GWs product line, making astra militarum a flop. My 2 cents.
Zarrath wrote: Rumors stay rumors. According to my local GW store: Hampton Village, Michigan, USA: GW will continue to beselling 6th edition and there are NO new plans for updating the rules, nor is there a need too. With that said, no 7th edition will be made. However, GW will be making a rules amendment and slight change to several rules. Just like with what they did with death from the skies. It`ll just be another book for sell comprising of several small changes, to the rules. Besidea that 7th edition would instantly all of GWs product line, making astra militarum a flop. My 2 cents.
No new edition has ever voided the previously released codecies.
You can call it a new edition/evolution/upgrade/expansion or whatever, but the result is the same - You will need to buy the new rulebook/starter set in order to play games of Warhammer 40k as the creators intend it.
For all those worried about chaos helldrake spam...
for 1870 points you can take 11 5 man devastator squads, with 4 flakk missile launchers each.
44 missiles per turn. Hellturkeys go bye bye?
Both lists would be lame and the game would be boring; anyone who buys 10 hell drakes totally deserves to find someone who bought 44 missile launcher marines.
Allowing spam of any unit certainly can fix the spam of anything else by allowing you to go find the perfect counter. ala rock paper scissors.
HairySticks wrote: For all those worried about chaos helldrake spam...
for 1870 points you can take 11 5 man devastator squads, with 4 flakk missile launchers each.
44 missiles per turn. Hellturkeys go bye bye?
Both lists would be lame and the game would be boring; anyone who buys 10 hell drakes totally deserves to find someone who bought 44 missile launcher marines.
Allowing spam of any unit certainly can fix the spam of anything else by allowing you to go find the perfect counter. ala rock paper scissors.
or just put your army in LR and the drakes cant hurt them... drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau
id rather field 60 CSM termies than 10 drakes.... and that says something.
HairySticks wrote: For all those worried about chaos helldrake spam...
for 1870 points you can take 11 5 man devastator squads, with 4 flakk missile launchers each.
44 missiles per turn. Hellturkeys go bye bye?
Both lists would be lame and the game would be boring; anyone who buys 10 hell drakes totally deserves to find someone who bought 44 missile launcher marines.
Allowing spam of any unit certainly can fix the spam of anything else by allowing you to go find the perfect counter. ala rock paper scissors.
or just put your army in LR and the drakes cant hurt them... drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau
id rather field 60 CSM termies than 10 drakes.... and that says something.
And Id be happy to play it; Its kinda fluffy Abbaddon has been known to stroll about with a big terminator retinue?
I quite like the sound of the unbound rules for the possibilities it opens up. Sure it allows for lame lists too ... *shrug* just dont play with TFG nothing new here.
or just put your army in LR and the drakes cant hurt them... drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau
id rather field 60 CSM termies than 10 drakes.... and that says something.
What about half drakes, half bikers? Fast Attack for CSM is really good, not just drakes. The exploitable part of unbound isn't just making mono-unit lists, it's exploiting the poor internal balancing of codexes. 0-3 fast attack units limits a lot of that. X Fast attack units...
ausYenLoWang wrote: ...drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau
I think it's more the case that Heldrake spam is the go-to example for a nasty build which is quite possible with an 'unbound' list but not really practical with a 'battle forged' one. Eldar and Tau may have more powerful builds, but they gain less from being able to get lots of their best units because they have a wide choice of good units and most of their best units are already HQ and Troops choices. Chaos Space Marines benefit a lot more from being able to make an entire army of a single Fast Attack choice, because that unit is significantly better than most of their other options and their troops and HQ choices are especially mediocre.
Look at the other power units of 6th edition:
Riptides? Much better taken in combination with a mixed force.
Wave Serpents? Can already be spammed.
White Scars Bikers with Grav Guns? Can already be spammed.
Warlock council? Can only field one even with unbound, so far as I can tell.
Screamerstar? Can only be fielded once, since it requires a unique artifact and a unique special character to work.
Imperial Knights? Can already be spammed.
Inquisitors? Much better as a support element than a primary force.
ausYenLoWang wrote: ...drake spam is the worst of the possible spam option... its just the one everyone imagines is bad cos it was the first of them. i think eldar has the most abusable option.... followed by tau
I think it's more the case that Heldrake spam is the go-to example for a nasty build which is quite possible with an 'unbound' list but not really practical with a 'battle forged' one. Eldar and Tau may have more powerful builds, but they gain less from being able to get lots of their best units because they have a wide choice of good units and most of their best units are already HQ and Troops choices. Chaos Space Marines benefit a lot more from being able to make an entire army of a single Fast Attack choice, because that unit is significantly better than most of their other options and their troops and HQ choices are especially mediocre.
Look at the other power units of 6th edition:
Riptides? Much better taken in combination with a mixed force.
Wave Serpents? Can already be spammed.
White Scars Bikers with Grav Guns? Can already be spammed.
Warlock council? Can only field one even with unbound, so far as I can tell.
Screamerstar? Can only be fielded once, since it requires a unique artifact and a unique special character to work.
Imperial Knights? Can already be spammed.
Inquisitors? Much better as a support element than a primary force.
but spammed drakes is terrible.. i was looking up a list and id say you have a better chance dropping maximum single oblits than drakes, they can contest the obj, and you dont auto lose if they fly off the board.
how can you not spam warlock councils?
i was writing up a decent list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/594165.page#6810834 then realised that... CSM is not a good option for mashing things out..
on that note though extra biker units and a couple of drakes etc, could work nicely. though doesnt have the punch of gravgun spam.
my prefered army for 7th would be IG at this stage BUT, i can make decent CSM lists, just as it opens some options up eg can take oblits in singles to force overkill on single models etc.
I think that one thing no one seems to remember is that you still have to start the game with 50% of your units on the board anyway. So really the all flyer army is irrelevant because you would have no units on the board at the end of turn one. If you have no units on the board at the end of a game turn you loose the game.
rothrich wrote: I think that one thing no one seems to remember is that you still have to start the game with 50% of your units on the board anyway. So really the all flyer army is irrelevant because you would have no units on the board at the end of turn one. If you have no units on the board at the end of a game turn you loose the game.
Currently, yes. It's possible this will change though.
Still, we should get more leaks this week, given we're supposed to get LOTS of new details in the WD coming out on 17May.
rothrich wrote: I think that one thing no one seems to remember is that you still have to start the game with 50% of your units on the board anyway. So really the all flyer army is irrelevant because you would have no units on the board at the end of turn one. If you have no units on the board at the end of a game turn you loose the game.
Currently, yes. It's possible this will change though.
It occurs to me that removing the requirement to have models on the board at the end of the turn in 7th would explain the Legion of the Damned codex's fatal flaw... If the codex was designed for an edition where you don't automatically lose by having nothing on the table at the end of the turn, suddenly having an entire army that has to start in reserve with no way of getting to the table until at least turn two makes some small amount of sense...
Any word on how Shadows in the Warp will work? Because the book just came out and it makes no sense with regards to how that psychic phase seems to work as described in WD...though I guess the book was written in 2012...oh foresight...
We still have no idea how casting powers will work so until then we will have no idea.
All we know is that there is a pool of dice, and that you can attempt to cast with as many as you want. We have no idea how it works other than that. We also know that there is a competitive pool of dice that can be to attempt to dispel.
However if I had to guess it will be something like anyone casting in shadows would have a -3 to their roll.
We also know that daemonology is one lore with two different aspects. I would wager that it is akin to the warlock powers. However we dont know if this is something mandatory at the beginning of the game, or if it is something that you always have access too.
We still dont know how getting powers works or anything of that nature.
Windir83 wrote: Any word on how Shadows in the Warp will work? Because the book just came out and it makes no sense with regards to how that psychic phase seems to work as described in WD...though I guess the book was written in 2012...oh foresight...
I'd like to think that nids were written with 7th edition in mind, like necrons were with 6th. That's naive and wishful thinking but I'm still hopeful.
Windir83 wrote: Any word on how Shadows in the Warp will work? Because the book just came out and it makes no sense with regards to how that psychic phase seems to work as described in WD...though I guess the book was written in 2012...oh foresight...
I'd like to think that nids were written with 7th edition in mind, like necrons were with 6th. That's naive and wishful thinking but I'm still hopeful.
With how long editions take to write and how long codexes take, I think the safest bet is that the editions are written with the last codexes in mind not the reverse.
I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.
From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.
All this crap over Unbound armies and Escalation is going to make pickup games a nightmare for people like myself who just want to play traditional 40K (i.e. like late 4th Ed, and 5th Ed, before Dataslates, Escalation, Stronghold Assault etc) with balanced and themed lists.
My Raven Guard lists ALWAYS compose of scouts, assault squads, devestators, sternguard, tactical marines, drop pods, the odd dreadnought and a single Storm Talon (which I've not yet assembled, but hope to use one day).
I can't see myself ever playing at a GW store again if I can expect spam lists of Titans, Fliers, Riptides etc.
ausYenLoWang wrote: but spammed drakes is terrible.. i was looking up a list and id say you have a better chance dropping maximum single oblits than drakes, they can contest the obj, and you dont auto lose if they fly off the board.
When I say 'spam', I generally mean 'more than half your army' rather than 'your entire army'.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.
From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.
It's necessary (to GWs mind) as there are so many player that won't consider playing anything that's not in the main rule book hence the continual hassle of using FW stuff in standard 40K, (even the underpowered rubbish stuff).
If the specifically put an Unbound option in the main book lots of people who would not otherwise consider playing that way will do so.
Now it may not be suitable for casual pick up games at a local store (although you need to wait and see how the battle forged bonuses look before you can be certain)......
however if your store thinks that Unbound is bad for the game (and thus sales) they have the option to ban it for pick up games
(lobby your store owner, if enough players stop shopping I'm sure they'll be happy to help)
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.
From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.
It's necessary (to GWs mind) as there are so many player that won't consider playing anything that's not in the main rule book hence the continual hassle of using FW stuff in standard 40K, (even the underpowered rubbish stuff).
If the specifically put an Unbound option in the main book lots of people who would not otherwise consider playing that way will do so.
Now it may not be suitable for casual pick up games at a local store (although you need to wait and see how the battle forged bonuses look before you can be certain)......
however if your store thinks that Unbound is bad for the game (and thus sales) they have the option to ban it for pick up games
(lobby your store owner, if enough players stop shopping I'm sure they'll be happy to help)
Exactly.
Once something is codified in the rules, it will make a certain breed of player far more accepting of the change, and another might never consider it at all (as in, not even think of it) unless presented to them in the rules.
Look at the various threads that pop up from time to time along the lines of "Am I allowed to..." I've even see people ask the question about other brands of paint! Newcomers, acolytes and people with no imagination (or at least no inclination to apply it to 40K) need things explicit or they might as well not exist.
azreal13 wrote: I've even see people ask the question about other brands of paint!
That's not a 'thinking outside the box' issue so much as a side-effect of people being told that the old 'GW-only' requirement for playing in GW stores or events extends to the entire planet and includes paint, and asking to find out if it's actually true...
azreal13 wrote: I've even see people ask the question about other brands of paint!
That's not a 'thinking outside the box' issue so much as a side-effect of people being told that the old 'GW-only' requirement for playing in GW stores or events extends to the entire planet and includes paint, and asking to find out if it's actually true...
Reading this, I imagined a GW payslave to suddenly start sniffing miniatures, claiming those "don't smell like ze colorz we use here".
ClockworkZion wrote: Oh, and it looks like DE and Eldar won't be changing how they ally (and if they do it won't be by much). The "Ask Gromrindal" section for WD 15:
#1: That seems like a load of crap based on what I understand of the Dark Eldar fluff.
#2: "They don't like each other, they share an UNEASY alliance" Sounds like battle brothers to me.
ausYenLoWang wrote: but spammed drakes is terrible.. i was looking up a list and id say you have a better chance dropping maximum single oblits than drakes, they can contest the obj, and you dont auto lose if they fly off the board.
When I say 'spam', I generally mean 'more than half your army' rather than 'your entire army'.
'Each Primary Detachment in your army may include up to one council of 1-10 Warlocks.'
unbound is the same as unlimited primary detachments. no FOC. so it goes 2 ways you can take infinte of them ( points allowing) or you can take NONE, because you dont have a primary detachment.
and ahhh ok, over half... well that makes sense i spose, but then is taking 3 drakes in normal games spamming, 510 pts out of 1850-2k. that 25-30% of my army yet under current conditions its considered spamming them.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I honestly don't get the point of this "Unbound Army" rule, and the Escalation supplement that permits Apocalypse units in normal play.
From what I understand, its a rule that lets you ignore the rules? Why was that even necessary? If players wanted to ignore certain rules, and just play with anything and everything in their collection, all they ever needed was their opponents agreement.
It's necessary (to GWs mind) as there are so many player that won't consider playing anything that's not in the main rule book hence the continual hassle of using FW stuff in standard 40K, (even the underpowered rubbish stuff).
If the specifically put an Unbound option in the main book lots of people who would not otherwise consider playing that way will do so.
Now it may not be suitable for casual pick up games at a local store (although you need to wait and see how the battle forged bonuses look before you can be certain)......
however if your store thinks that Unbound is bad for the game (and thus sales) they have the option to ban it for pick up games
(lobby your store owner, if enough players stop shopping I'm sure they'll be happy to help)
i 100% agree with the above, when its not in the book people wont let you do it. once its there it opens the door or atleast means people cant scream NO COZ ITS NOT IN THE RULZ.
i spose we need to remember GW is writing these unbound rules based on the average casual beer and pretzels player, as they dont acknowledge the power gamers that exist... so they are expecting its fluffy use rather than total abuse
ClockworkZion wrote: Oh, and it looks like DE and Eldar won't be changing how they ally (and if they do it won't be by much). The "Ask Gromrindal" section for WD 15:
#1: That seems like a load of crap based on what I understand of the Dark Eldar fluff.
#2: "They don't like each other, they share an UNEASY alliance" Sounds like battle brothers to me.
Well that or Allies of Convience, but definitely not Desperate Allies. As for the fluff, their last fluff injection was in 5th almost a year prior to 6th and the allies thing, so there is always room for more stuff in the next book.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Concerning the whole "why does it need to be in the rulebook, you can just do this with your friends anyways" stuff, not even a year ago we had people venomously arguing on this very message board on if FW was "legal" or not because it wasn't specifically mentioned in the rulebook. So yeah, it needs to be in the rulebook.
BlaxicanX wrote: There's more to a codex than it' competitive power, as hard as that may be to imagine.
I do agree that it had very little to further the "story" of the IG or add "flavor" to the army.
I guess it was such a rehash of some things and many models were removed I looked at it for what it was: a rules update for IG with an eye to GW models not Forge World.
It is easy to be used to them dusting off old fluff they put out through the years and mix and match in their next codex release, is it easy not to expect much by way of new content?
I find that the only "excitement" I get from any new publication is the idea of "what changed now?" rather than any new writing they had done.
Why cannot they quote from more of the Black Library fiction books?
The writing there is worlds better than what they dream up for rule/codex books.
Anyway, long winded way to say "good point, I should raise my expectations".
unbound is the same as unlimited primary detachments. no FOC. so it goes 2 ways you can take infinte of them ( points allowing) or you can take NONE, because you dont have a primary detachment.
No, not exatcly. You will need a primary attachment and you still have to respect the allies matrix, so you cannot ally with yourself, except Space Marines who have explicit permission to do so.
Come on guys 
