I don't know if this is a language barrier issue or a reading comprehension thing, but I never said they should do anything.
A person is entirely able to hope for a change due to personal reasons, and after reading through previous pages of text you are even capable and confident enough to put down users who want to field, for example, Slaanesh daemons. So, as you are operating under the impression they're bad, I'm sure you're equally capable of hoping they make a change.
That is not the same statement as saying they should, or have to, do anything.
Sadly Tzeentch will never be anything other than a tiny ingredient. If your one army is in chaos, imperium or aeldarii - you will NEVER have a competitive army in the current game(with the one exception of astra militarum, but soup is still better so that's barelly an exception).
The only real full armies in the game right now are:
Astra Militarum
Necrons - suck unless 2+ vaults and because knights
Orks - suck because no codex
T'AU - meh because soups can cover T'AU weaknesses with strengths
Tyranids - suck because knights
rvd1ofakind wrote: Sadly Tzeentch will never be anything other than a tiny ingredient. If your one army is in chaos, imperium or aeldarii - you will NEVER have a competitive army in the current game(with the one exception of astra militarum, but soup is still better so that's barelly an exception).
The only real full armies in the game right now are:
Astra Militarum
Necrons - suck unless 2+ vaults and because knights
Orks - suck because no codex
T'AU - meh because soups can cover T'AU weaknesses with strengths
Tyranids - suck because knights
This kind of post is a great example of blowing things out of proportion. There is plenty of things that can still place highly in tournaments, and the meta is ever changing. Orks have won plenty from Boy spam, so do they suck because the rest of the army is lacking, or good because they can win handedly off of one troop choice?
Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
There was more than one I assure you, and I think you're putting a little too much faith into top 10. I'll grant you that a hefty weight of getting a chance at winning a tournament is bringing the best list possible, but the game is random dice based format, with players of varying skill. Just because something shows up greatly for a month doesn't make it the be all end all. It's the hot new thing. The reason half these lists win is because the meta is built around something else and they break in from the side, or their codex gets released and is suprisingly powerful. (Or you play Orks and spam a single troop choice.)
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
There was more than one I assure you, and I think you're putting a little too much faith into top 10. I'll grant you that a hefty weight of getting a chance at winning a tournament is bringing the best list possible, but the game is random dice based format, with players of varying skill. Just because something shows up greatly for a month doesn't make it the be all end all. It's the hot new thing. The reason half these lists win is because the meta is built around something else and they break in from the side, or their codex gets released and is suprisingly powerful. (Or you play Orks and spam a single troop choice.)
"I assuure you". Dude, I SAW the list of lists (lol). And there was only 1 of each in those scenarios. (notice there were 7 other necron lists but they were 3 vaults).
And luck means jack in most games if you're actually good at the game.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Blowing things out of proportion? There was ONE ork list in the BAO, there was ONE non-3 vault necron list in the ETC. These armies are doing really bad. The meta only really changes after FAQs or codexes.
Have you seen the Nova invitational lists? It's a joke. Half the players are bringing the same list.
Zid wrote: I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.
I contest this! Bloodletter bombs are definitely still a thing and are fantastic when facing any army without invulnerable saves on their troops, they're even pretty good at taking down knights (with a DP and Skarbrand, a 20 man unit will destroy an unwounded Knight on the charge).
Quite a lot of the time, a late game Bloodletter bomb will devastate your opponent when they know longer have enough units to screen against them.
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
I run a Daemon detachment alongside my World Eaters with 2x 25 Bloodletters with the banner, a min unit of Bloodletters, a Herald and a DP. That costs 8CP to throw into deepstrike but I run 3 Battalions so I have plenty of CP. It's the most powerful part of my list (the only other thing in the list that puts out damage are my Berzerkers) and is great for tagging an entire army, destroying any unit you want and for grabbing objectives.
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
I run a Daemon detachment alongside my World Eaters with 2x 25 Bloodletters with the banner, a min unit of Bloodletters, a Herald and a DP. That costs 8CP to throw into deepstrike but I run 3 Battalions so I have plenty of CP. It's the most powerful part of my list (the only other thing in the list that puts out damage are my Berzerkers) and is great for tagging an entire army, destroying any unit you want and for grabbing objectives.
ah that explains it. i was only thinking of the daemon codex
Issue with that bomb in a batallion is it costs 3-4 cp per bomb depending on if you bring the standard (which you probably want for the 3d6 charge dice. A single big bomb of bloodletters is good but you probaly can't afford more then one. As filler they are terrible compared to nurglings, horrors, and plaguebearers. i'd argue even daemonettes are slightly better starting on field because they can advance and charge and be given a 6+++. so your stuck with 2 terrible bloodletter troops if you want locus in a batallion. I think the bomb works better as an addition to another khorne formation but that costs cp
I run a Daemon detachment alongside my World Eaters with 2x 25 Bloodletters with the banner, a min unit of Bloodletters, a Herald and a DP. That costs 8CP to throw into deepstrike but I run 3 Battalions so I have plenty of CP. It's the most powerful part of my list (the only other thing in the list that puts out damage are my Berzerkers) and is great for tagging an entire army, destroying any unit you want and for grabbing objectives.
ah that explains it. i was only thinking of the daemon codex
I mean you could do something similar with a pure Daemon army, the Battalion I use about 700pts and is even cheaper if you drop to 20 man Bloodletter units (also means they're only 2 rather than 3CP each to deploy in), drop instruments of Chaos and swap the Daemon Prince for another Herald; that's only about 500pts.
Thousand Sons Supreme Command (+1CP)
HQ Ahriman on Disc – 166
Powers: Diabolic Strength, Death Hex, Glamour
Parveidota Upuris, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons, Helm relic – 180
Powers: Weaver, Warptime
Izvelas Izmainas, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons – 180
Powers: Gift of Chaos, Temporal Manipulation
Reinforcement Points (for splits and an occasional Spawn) – 85
My general strategy is to put the LoC at the front of a spear, with the Princes arranged around him depending on enemy mobility. I want the LoC in the front to block as much damage as possible, since he has the best save, highest toughness, and most wounds of all my models. And while no slouch in combat, obviously my damage is generated from other sources.
Game 1 VERSUS Imperial Guard
Spoiler:
This guy had a severely unoptimized list, and he said it was his 3rd game in 8e and his first tournament ever. Props for coming to such a big event. He won the Purple Heart award for losing all six games but still playing all six! Throughout our game, I reminded him to use his Regimental bonus, his Russ double-shoot, and even told him about Vengeance for Cadia strat.
His list was, roughly, a Cadian brigade with Creed, Commisar, Tempestor Prime, four Infantry Squads (two in Chimeras), two five-man Scion units (with no plasma), a Scion Command (again no plasma), a Command Squad (Standard, vox, etc), a Master of Ordinance, three Armoured Sentinels with plascans, autocannon HWT, las HWT, mortar HWT; and then a Cadian Spearhead with Company Commander, Basilisk, Wyvern, and three LRBTs (mix of turrets).
One Top I went first (I had fewer drops). We had Hammer and Anvil deployment, five objectives, one in the center, with a rather huge hill+tower in center field. T1 I moved everything up the field, advancing with all the Princes except one, who got seriously buffed (3++, -1 to hit, Diabolic Strength) and then Warptimed forward. This guy, Izvelas Izmainas, then gave Creed a very lovely Gift of Chaos (9" range bc TSons)...and yes I beat his toughness, and OF COURSE I did 5 wounds. And a Spawn popped out and tied up an infantry squad on an objective.
LoC, Nurgle, and Ahriman all did some wounds to Sentinels. Izvelas Izmainas shredded the same infantry squad the Spawn was facing, and that was top of 1.
One Bottom This was really awful for him. LoC had a 2++, weathered all the Russ shooting with minimal damage and the Nurglings took some Wyvern and small arms fire. The Crystal Prince took a couple wounds, but was largely unscathed, thanks to the modifiers on him. The Spawn died.
Two Top I moved everything up, except the Flamers who were waiting mid-field, hidden, to counter the Scion drop. Arioch got a nice Gateway off on a Sentinel, hitting three other units. Izvelas Izmainas healed himself and moved over to the lovely grouping of Commisar, Ordinance, Basilisk, and Wyvern. The Pink blob, which had dropped with Vashta Nerada, cleared off an infantry squad and a few bases of HWTs.
Izvelas Izmainas multicharged the Basilisk and both characters, and killed both characters. Nurgle charged and destroyed a sentinel. Arioch multicharged a sentinel and an infantry squad, killing the Sentinel and causing the infantry to flee in morale. Parveidota Upuris killed an infantry squad.
At this point, there were a couple Chimeras (one full), the Basilisk in combat, three LRBTs, and a character.
Two Bottom He dropped in the Scions, and killed a few Pinks. The Russes plinked at Arioch, who took minimal damage. The Wyvern shot at lesser daemons. The final infantry squad unloaded and shot into Nurgle, doing nothing of note. Izvelas Izmainas killed the Basilisk in combat (bc yes I did heroically intervene after he fell back 2").
And by the bottom of T2 he had killed less than 10 models. He got several Nurgling bases, a few Pink Horrors, and had made a dent in a couple of my princes. His Scions (all four units of them) dropped into my backfield and didn't do much, and I had held my Flamers back in order to counter this.
At this point, he conceded. Had we continued, I would have killed all the Scions with the Flamers and perhaps a bit of Pink shooting, thus securing my backfield. I would have charged the Russes with Khorne, Nurgle, and Arioch. Mortal wounds would've taken out a Chimera.
So a great starting show for me at this six round tournament! It was 38-4 at the end, putting me in 3rd place overall.
Game 2 VERSUS Mirror Match Magnus!
Spoiler:
I have played this guy several times in the past couple months with iterations of my list, and have won each time by a narrow margin. We're pretty closely matched, and each game has been a back-and-forth bloodbath. He's pretty competitive, and has even made matrices detailing which ITC Secondaries he should take against which opponents; as well as a matrix for his opponents detailing how many characters he has, how many models, how many etc. A bit over the top, imo, but to each his own.
His list was TSons Supreme (Ahriman, 3 Princes, Magnus), TSons Battalion (Sorcerer, Sorcerer, 3x10 Cultists), and Tzeentch Battalion (Tzerald, Changeling, 3x10 Brims, 9x Flamers). So not exactly a mirror match, but quite a bit of confluence. Our Psychic phases were INTENSE.
We had the corners w/ middle bubble deployment. We had a nearly identical deployment--a spear of princes (and lil Ahriman) tipped by Magnus or Arioch, respectively. My Nurglings sat near his far side line, and he countered with all the cultists and two Brims.
One Top He got first turn, and played very conservatively. His Ahriman moved to support cultists against my Nurglings, and all his other stuff crept forward. Arioch took FIFTEEN mortals in this psychic phase. He used the TSons stratagem on Gateway to give Magnus a net +4 cast, and caused quite a few wounds on Princes (but fortunately rolled rather low on the damage).
The rest of the game was really a struggle for the center point, with various charges, interventions, and multiassaults. It was brutal. The best part for me was when his Ahriman had a perils, I knocked it up to 2d3 damage, and he burned out, killing a variety of cultists. That was T2. I managed to kill Magnus with Khorne and Nurgle together (not even that 3++ can save you against that much damage).
It was all such a psychic blur that I can't remember the specific details as well, but I ended up winning 22-19. I think I eked it out because of secondaries. His 9 Flamers dropping into my backfield gave me quite a scare, but I cleared them off through Pink shooting and a gutsy charge.
Game 3 VERSUS Imperial Knights
Spoiler:
I played against the first place player. He's pretty good, probably the best in our meta and also does very well at national tournaments. Usually plays Nids, but switched it up because he felt like easy mode His list is three Taranis Knights (Crusader , Gallant, Warden), a Freeblade Raven Castellan (big plasma, 4 missiles), and a Guard battalion (2 Commanders, one Warlord, and 3x10 Infantry).
We had Dawn of War deployment, with four objectives (two in the very middle of each deployment zone, two near the short edges midfield). I camped my Brims on mine, Nurglings on the other two, and he camped his Guard on his, with a squad aimed at each center field objective. Knights grouped up in the middle.
One Top I got first turn, and surged forward. I moved some Pinks up to reinforce the Nurglings on a side objective, and all the big boys moved forward in formation to try and engage a Knight. I was out of range for Gateway (sadly), but I did make a T1 charge with a TSons Prince. He caused roughly six wounds to a Knight (this opponent has an entire game of above average saves) and dies a squishy death. This was a serious mistake on my part, and I wish I had instead weathered a turn of shooting at Big Bird, with all my princes lined up behind, and then gang-banged two knights next turn. I should've played more conservatively. I also failed Treason, boo.
One Bottom There was a lot of shooting here that gave some damage to Arioch. But nothing noteworthy happened besides some Guardsmen moving forward and stripping a few Nurgling wounds.
Two Top Flamers came in and DID NOT MANAGE TO KILL AN INFANTRY SQUAD. This just shows how crazy he was doing on saves during this whole game. 6d6 S4 -1 hits on a 10 man guard squad, and they don't all die. The probability of doing at least 10 wounds is 74% I charged the Gallant (double cc knight) with Nurgle, Khorne, and the remaining TSons, and Khorne did 22 wounds, with Nurgle finishing it off. That was really crazy, and I immediately kissed my Khorne prince, and thanked the Fates that I had decided to go with that choice in the end. Thanks to small_gods for the suggestion above. Totally worth it. When the Knight died it exploded, causing wounds to three princes, the LoC, and another Knight.
I also did some more damage across the Knights with mortals, and my big Pink blob plopped onto my objective because I didn't want a Knight getting in there and stealing it from me. They actually did SEVEN wounds to the Knight they shot at (FlickerFire means wounds on 5s!).
Two Bottom Nurgle died. Nurglings died. Flamers died. Tzerald died to Shieldbreaker. Arioch took some damage. The Pinks took a wound or two from stubbers, but the main guns were focused on bigger targets.
Three Top My smaller unit of Pinks ran forward to engage a lonely Guard Commander in a ruin. This will lead to one of two situations, out of my control, that resulted in my loss. I did enough mortals that I could a second knight (I think the Warden) in cc with a prince, and I managed to kill the Castellan with Khorne, who did TWENTY-FIVE more damage. Unbelievable. Mathhammer says that my average should be 19 damage, so I'm definitely getting above average. Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit, but he's good. And just wait till game five, hehehe.
Pink blob finished off some stray guardsmen, and did another wound to a knight. Not a bad showing for them.
Three Bottom Second TSons Prince died. This leaves me with Khorne on a couple wounds, menacing the Guard Warlord; Ahriman, near center field giving psychic support; Arioch with 5 wounds left; the huge blob of Horrors midfield; a couple Nurglings on an objective; and 8 Pink rushing the second cowardly Commander. He's got a Crusader, sixish Guardsmen, and two Commanders.
Well, hit the and that Warden, in a single round of shooting, manages to kill Ahriman (with the gatling), Khorne Prince (with a Flamer and stubber) and Arioch (with the melta). Note that I had forgotten all game about my -1D warlord trait, and upon the killing blow, which melta (at half range) caused 6D, still killed him for 5D This really turned the tables, and was some very unfortunate rolling on my part.
Four Top 8 Pinks move into position and shoot the cowardly Commander, dealing two wounds. Big blob of Pinks shoots the Knight, who is heavily wounded, and does another wound or two (but not enough). I still have a single Flamer, who moves off an objective to try and root out the remaining Infantry Squad.
8 Pinks charge the cowardly commander, and do two wounds. He fails both saves. He uses his last command point to make the save, and regains the CP.
Four Bottom The single Flamer dies to las. The Warden charges my Pink blob and everyone piles in. I have so many splits, I do no damage, and the pile-in definitely secures my objective. I take my morale (because I lost a LOT of guys) and I roll a 1 Four Pinks come back, getting me to 26 models. Heh. The Commander in cc kills a Horror, and I give him a wound, his final wound. He fails his save; a CP is spent to reroll. Save is made, CP is regained. This means that I don't really have a hope of clearing off his back objective or getting his Warlord.
Five Top Horrors are all in combat. The EXACT SAME THING happens with the Commander, except this time he finally runs out of CP. I lose some Horrors, but nothing terrible. I'm still winning on objectives because of two little Nurgling bases that are hiding behind a hill.
Five Bottom Warden falls back, shoots some Horrors, and charges the Nurglings. The Nurglings freaking survive, because the Warden is so damaged he misses a lot. Guardsmen rush to an objective.
Six Top Pink Blob, with loads of models left (still 20+) spread out to hold the objective while trying for some shots at the Warlord (who was in range for some reason?) and the Infantry squad who had moved moved moved to an objective. Lesser unit of Pinks move toward the Warlord, but are in a ruin and can't see.
Pink blob fires 7 models (21 shots) and the Warlord takes 2 wounds, whereas the average would be 3.5. This is, again, where his saving rolls are absurdly (maliciously?) hot. Right at the crux, he makes it again. Some more Pinks shoot at the infantry and squish them. Knight squishes last Nurgling. (I couldn't fall back, hold the objective, and also avoid Intervention, so I had no choice.)
Six Bottom Knight kills a few Horrors, game over.
I lost 21-26, and I can't help but feel that if just one of three specific things had gone differently, I would've won. If either Khorne, Ahriman, or Arioch had survived the Warden shooting round, I could've killed at least the Warlord, and maybe even the Warden. If that Commander hadn't rerolled three saves, I would've been out of combat and killing the Warlord with those Pinks. Or if my final round of Pink shooting had not been unstatistically saved against, I would've got some more points and denied him some.
But it's a dice game in the end. I need new dice.
Skullreaver did approximately NINETY DAMAGE across the tournament against Knights. That's just in two games, so an average of FORTY-FIVE DAMAGE against a Knight opponent. That is INSANE. I seriously cannot get my head around it, I have never done that much damage with a single unit before. My hardest-hitting unit, a Grey Knight GMDK, will do about 20 damage against a big target, if he's lucky. And he's 300pts, nearly double what the Prince is.
I'll post the other three rounds later. For now, I'm typed out.
I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
I find that Daemons are not incredibly amazing by themselves, no. But they can turn CSM, Death Guard and T-Sons into tournament contenders when added into a list, which is at least an up in my book. They're a support army, even if I don't like it.
vaklor4 wrote: I find that Daemons are not incredibly amazing by themselves, no. But they can turn CSM, Death Guard and T-Sons into tournament contenders when added into a list, which is at least an up in my book. They're a support army, even if I don't like it.
Is there a consensus about what type of units are best served as support elements for Death Guard and T-Sons armies.
Nurglings, poxwalkers and the other buff units are obvious inclusions I'd wager. How about Khorne DP's? Are they useful enough to want to ally in?
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
I could be biased as well, considering my main army is Grey Knights. At this point, literally ANYTHING is better, so I’ve been extremely pleased with how my Daemons have been succeeding. Lol
As to DS the LoC—absolutely not! He is the character protection from shooting on T1, and with a 2++ and -1 damage, he has never died T1. Even if he gets charged, I will usually have some Princes in Intervention range to clear the threat; and if that doesn’t work, he can still fly away if I need a different target for smite/gateway. Very versatile, very tough, and I have the Creature Caster model so I like that too!
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
I could be biased as well, considering my main army is Grey Knights. At this point, literally ANYTHING is better, so I’ve been extremely pleased with how my Daemons have been succeeding. Lol
As to DS the LoC—absolutely not! He is the character protection from shooting on T1, and with a 2++ and -1 damage, he has never died T1. Even if he gets charged, I will usually have some Princes in Intervention range to clear the threat; and if that doesn’t work, he can still fly away if I need a different target for smite/gateway. Very versatile, very tough, and I have the Creature Caster model so I like that too!
Do tell, how do you get the LoC to 2++? Warpsurge and Weaver cap out at 3++ even with the impossible robe.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm glad it went well for you and yours been having success with them.
I've won several RTTs with my Daemons. My main gripe, as I've intended to get across and did during the early days of the thread, os the power disparity. I have many, many armies. Daemons have to try harder than any of them, besides Deathwatch. It absolutely can happen, and you absolutely can do well with them. It's just harder to do than the rest. That's not by itself a negative thing.
Terrible? No.
Great? Also no.
Again, just a personal opinion. I miss added complexity for Tzeentch. I miss more powerful psychcic phases. Multiple small gripes, but again, I'm very glad it's working for you.
I could be biased as well, considering my main army is Grey Knights. At this point, literally ANYTHING is better, so I’ve been extremely pleased with how my Daemons have been succeeding. Lol
As to DS the LoC—absolutely not! He is the character protection from shooting on T1, and with a 2++ and -1 damage, he has never died T1. Even if he gets charged, I will usually have some Princes in Intervention range to clear the threat; and if that doesn’t work, he can still fly away if I need a different target for smite/gateway. Very versatile, very tough, and I have the Creature Caster model so I like that too!
Do tell, how do you get the LoC to 2++? Warpsurge and Weaver cap out at 3++ even with the impossible robe.
It's an interpretation of the rules where two of them increase your invulnerable saves by 1 to a max of 3+ but the third rule just adds 1 to your invulnerable save rolls; so you still save on a 3+ but a 1 becomes a 2, a 2 becomes a 3 and so on. Whether you can use this interpetation in a game very much depends on your opponant/the TO agreeing with you.
there is nothing about interpretation.... robe get your save at 4+ surge get your save at 3+ so you are inside the rules lilmit, then ephimeral form wont reduce again the save it just add +1 do DICE ROLL your save is still 3++, just you have the plus 1 to dice, so is perfectly legal, then if someone wants find anytime a way to discuss well.. that have nothing to do with rules. And remember you cant re roll any dice when you have warp surge active so when you fail you fail.
Yeah, it's pretty explicit in game that +1 is not the same as improving by 1. +1 to hit, for example, doesn't mean 3+ goes to 2+, because it also allows for the possibility of getting 7+ in order to trigger things like nurgle abilities.
mrhappyface wrote: Not saying I don't agree, just saying I know some people who wouldn't allow that version of the rules.
The easiest way to convince them, I would think, would be to show them some Nurgle stuff that requires 7s to activate. How do you get to a 7 on a d6? You add one to the actual roll.
Hi all.
The Knights made me thinking. I want one in my army but too much of points to fit.
So why not borrow a Knight or another character from my enemies?
Anyone tried the power “treason of Tzeentch”? Warp charge 8 2D6 and roll higher than characters LD.
I’m building a list I want to try and trying to do this and would want some help and advice from a semi competitive to competitive view.
As of now the list it something like this.
Night lords
Chaos lord w jump pack
3x5 raptors w meltaguns, Nurgle with icon.
DP w skullreaver
DP w soulstealer and Phantasmagoria
30 pink
30 BLoodletter
10 brims
Ahriman
DP w “treason of Tzeentch”
DP DP
Raptors lower LD as does Slaneesh DP power. With “gaze of fate” I get a reroll and if needed, reroll strat.
I do know that Zarakylen got an aura of debuff LD but don’t have her and not very competitive due to points. Need some help for lower LD and still have an army that’s working even without it...
1. Treason of Tzeentch is pretty crap, compare it to the GSC Mind control:
ToT is WC8
MC is WC6,
ToT is Characters only (excluding Warlords)
MC is anyone,
ToT is beat the enemies Ld on a roll of a 2d6 MC is beat or equal the enemies Ld on a roll of a 3d6,
Tot is use the model as if it was yours for a turn
MC is use the model for a shooting or CC attack.
Treason of Tzeentch was 'meh' when we first got it and it was a piss take when GSC got their powers.
2. You've got far too many DPs in that list, max of 3.
3. You're a bit all over the place with your God units, I'd suggest picking 1 or 2 Gods and building around that, e.g. a Bloodletter bomb OR a Pink Horror bomb in a single detachment.
4. I suggest swapping a raptor unit for a Warp Talon unit with MoK and Icon of Wrath so they can jump in first and negate overwatch.
Sorry but GSC? Not a power I know about but yes, as you say, “treason” is not a good power and thus far I haven’t used it. But simply taking some Raptors with meltaguns I can shoot down a Knight AND lower it’s LD in a simple way. So why not try to use a power that by itself can turn the tide and turn that Knight or captain smash or a farseer and do some work and try killing stuff and/or killing itself?
I got 2 Gods. Khorne and Tzeentch but also a supreme command 1kSons.
2DP from Chaos Daemons
3DP from 1kSons.
It’s different data sheets and then allowed.
Tazberry wrote: Sorry but GSC? Not a power I know about but yes, as you say, “treason” is not a good power and thus far I haven’t used it. But simply taking some Raptors with meltaguns I can shoot down a Knight AND lower it’s LD in a simple way. So why not try to use a power that by itself can turn the tide and turn that Knight or captain smash or a farseer and do some work and try killing stuff and/or killing itself?
Problem is, you're putting a lot of eggs into the ToT basket when there is a small chance of it actually going off and that's if there's a suitable target for ToT.
I got 2 Gods. Khorne and Tzeentch but also a supreme command 1kSons.
I meant for you to either go with one or the other: either take a ton of Horrors for the Dakka or take a ton of Bloodletters to swamp the enemy with; then take units that support those bombs.
2DP from Chaos Daemons
3DP from 1kSons.
It’s different data sheets and then allowed.
So you can, my mistake, I for some reason thought there was an FAQ specifically calling out DPs.
Can you take an icon for Warp talons?
Again, my mistake, haven't played CSM for a while.
Well yes, this time I’m simply throwing things in and then mixture the list. Probably take horrors and leave BL on the shelf.
Was mostly thinking of a way to utilizing that power if needed let’s say vs IK or maybe Ynarri. But to do that better I need too lower the targets LD..
I mostly play Tzeentch and a little Csm and thinking about turning too 1kSons As I like psychic powers.
Not that I know of. All the DPs are slightly different in powers and wargear. Warbolters cost 9 for daemons but the rest is only 3.
treason of tz is one of worst spell, if you base your strategy on it you need tons of luck, you want a IK, take off the useless chaos outrider (raptors are crap) and 1 dp and you have room for a nice IK with 2 gatlings and missile pod, 100 thousand better of 15 raptors.
Barnie25 wrote: Do people mix gods of different allegiances within the same detachment?
You lose out on your allegiance specific special rules, is that a problem?
. Not that much of a problem with Tzeentch, Nurgle depends on the unit, Slaanesh and Khorne benefit greatly from their bonus auras and really like to bring them into play.
Also, bear in mind synergy if you’re bringing a Daemonkin list with all Obliterators and Defilers and Blight-haulers etc.
Barnie25 wrote: Do people mix gods of different allegiances within the same detachment?
You lose out on your allegiance specific special rules, is that a problem?
. Not that much of a problem with Tzeentch, Nurgle depends on the unit, Slaanesh and Khorne benefit greatly from their bonus auras and really like to bring them into play.
Also, bear in mind synergy if you’re bringing a Daemonkin list with all Obliterators and Defilers and Blight-haulers etc.
Yeah my 3 Bloat-Drones really don't mind it when a poxwalker increases the strength of my flamers.
A couple pages back, someone tossed out the idea of running a list with all the "best" Daemon Princes available, as a counter to Imperial Knight lists. I looked at putting together one of my own, and after determining that you need a Thousand Sons (Tzeentch DP + Ahriman), Chaos Space Marine (Slaanesh Elixir), and Chaos Daemons (Skullreaver and Corruption princes) detachment to fit them all, also considered how to make the most of the little guys meant to screen and support those monsters. I came up with the following list....
Thousand Sons Battalion
Ahriman on Disc--Warp Time, Death Hex, Weaver of Fates 166
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch--Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Helm of the Third Eye, Gaze of Fate, < >, 180
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch--Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Dark Matter Crystal, < >, < >, 180
Tzaangor Shaman--< > 90
Tzaangors--30 Tzaangors with Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn 220
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns 40
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns 40
Chaos Space Marines Battalion
Daemon Prince--Slaanesh, Alpha Legion, Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Intoxicating Elixir, Diabolic Strength 180
Dark Apostle--Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--40 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Amusingly, it's kinda like the 7th ed Infernal Tetrad lists, having a Daemon Prince from every Chaos allegiance. Each detachment has a Troop type that can pull a lot of weight with proper support, so I wanted each of those. A lot of command points (up to 5) are spent pre-game on just relics, so I also made some tweaks to be able to cram in 3 battalions to provide the needed surplus of CP's. This lets you adjust the list up and down, depending on how many relics you need for punch, if you want to reserve units, and then have points available for buffs (3d6 charge, fighting again in combat, etc.)
Bottom line is you end up with a list that can punch the hell out of a couple Imperial Knights at once, while also having up to 6 Smites (only one that will get penalized), a couple other buffing spells, a turn 1 charge from the Tzaangor bomb, the option to outflank/replace itself with Tide of Traitors, and a deep striking Bloodletter bomb. And 150 ObSec bodies.
Sokhar wrote: A couple pages back, someone tossed out the idea of running a list with all the "best" Daemon Princes available, as a counter to Imperial Knight lists. I looked at putting together one of my own, and after determining that you need a Thousand Sons (Tzeentch DP + Ahriman), Chaos Space Marine (Slaanesh Elixir), and Chaos Daemons (Skullreaver and Corruption princes) detachment to fit them all, also considered how to make the most of the little guys meant to screen and support those monsters. I came up with the following list....
Thousand Sons Battalion
Ahriman on Disc--Warp Time, Death Hex, Weaver of Fates 166
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch--Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Helm of the Third Eye, Gaze of Fate, < >, 180
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch--Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Dark Matter Crystal, < >, < >, 180
Tzaangor Shaman--< > 90
Tzaangors--30 Tzaangors with Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn 220
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns 40
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns 40
Chaos Space Marines Battalion
Daemon Prince--Slaanesh, Alpha Legion, Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Intoxicating Elixir, Diabolic Strength 180
Dark Apostle--Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--40 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Amusingly, it's kinda like the 7th ed Infernal Tetrad lists, having a Daemon Prince from every Chaos allegiance. Each detachment has a Troop type that can pull a lot of weight with proper support, so I wanted each of those. A lot of command points (up to 5) are spent pre-game on just relics, so I also made some tweaks to be able to cram in 3 battalions to provide the needed surplus of CP's. This lets you adjust the list up and down, depending on how many relics you need for punch, if you want to reserve units, and then have points available for buffs (3d6 charge, fighting again in combat, etc.)
Bottom line is you end up with a list that can punch the hell out of a couple Imperial Knights at once, while also having up to 6 Smites (only one that will get penalized), a couple other buffing spells, a turn 1 charge from the Tzaangor bomb, the option to outflank/replace itself with Tide of Traitors, and a deep striking Bloodletter bomb. And 150 ObSec bodies.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Cephalobeard, I'd be interested to see what list of yours isn't working for you, because I've been doing quite well with Daemons Primary.
I did really well at the GT (got 2nd out of 32 players, went 5-1), and I thought I'd share my list and games with you all for the betterment of 40kind
Here's my final list. I actually combined the two lists and took a suggestion I got here.
Thousand Sons Supreme Command (+1CP)
HQ Ahriman on Disc – 166
Powers: Diabolic Strength, Death Hex, Glamour
Parveidota Upuris, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons, Helm relic – 180
Powers: Weaver, Warptime
Izvelas Izmainas, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons – 180
Powers: Gift of Chaos, Temporal Manipulation
Reinforcement Points (for splits and an occasional Spawn) – 85
My general strategy is to put the LoC at the front of a spear, with the Princes arranged around him depending on enemy mobility. I want the LoC in the front to block as much damage as possible, since he has the best save, highest toughness, and most wounds of all my models. And while no slouch in combat, obviously my damage is generated from other sources.
Game 1 VERSUS Imperial Guard
Spoiler:
This guy had a severely unoptimized list, and he said it was his 3rd game in 8e and his first tournament ever. Props for coming to such a big event. He won the Purple Heart award for losing all six games but still playing all six! Throughout our game, I reminded him to use his Regimental bonus, his Russ double-shoot, and even told him about Vengeance for Cadia strat.
His list was, roughly, a Cadian brigade with Creed, Commisar, Tempestor Prime, four Infantry Squads (two in Chimeras), two five-man Scion units (with no plasma), a Scion Command (again no plasma), a Command Squad (Standard, vox, etc), a Master of Ordinance, three Armoured Sentinels with plascans, autocannon HWT, las HWT, mortar HWT; and then a Cadian Spearhead with Company Commander, Basilisk, Wyvern, and three LRBTs (mix of turrets).
One Top I went first (I had fewer drops). We had Hammer and Anvil deployment, five objectives, one in the center, with a rather huge hill+tower in center field. T1 I moved everything up the field, advancing with all the Princes except one, who got seriously buffed (3++, -1 to hit, Diabolic Strength) and then Warptimed forward. This guy, Izvelas Izmainas, then gave Creed a very lovely Gift of Chaos (9" range bc TSons)...and yes I beat his toughness, and OF COURSE I did 5 wounds. And a Spawn popped out and tied up an infantry squad on an objective.
LoC, Nurgle, and Ahriman all did some wounds to Sentinels. Izvelas Izmainas shredded the same infantry squad the Spawn was facing, and that was top of 1.
One Bottom This was really awful for him. LoC had a 2++, weathered all the Russ shooting with minimal damage and the Nurglings took some Wyvern and small arms fire. The Crystal Prince took a couple wounds, but was largely unscathed, thanks to the modifiers on him. The Spawn died.
Two Top I moved everything up, except the Flamers who were waiting mid-field, hidden, to counter the Scion drop. Arioch got a nice Gateway off on a Sentinel, hitting three other units. Izvelas Izmainas healed himself and moved over to the lovely grouping of Commisar, Ordinance, Basilisk, and Wyvern. The Pink blob, which had dropped with Vashta Nerada, cleared off an infantry squad and a few bases of HWTs.
Izvelas Izmainas multicharged the Basilisk and both characters, and killed both characters. Nurgle charged and destroyed a sentinel. Arioch multicharged a sentinel and an infantry squad, killing the Sentinel and causing the infantry to flee in morale. Parveidota Upuris killed an infantry squad.
At this point, there were a couple Chimeras (one full), the Basilisk in combat, three LRBTs, and a character.
Two Bottom He dropped in the Scions, and killed a few Pinks. The Russes plinked at Arioch, who took minimal damage. The Wyvern shot at lesser daemons. The final infantry squad unloaded and shot into Nurgle, doing nothing of note. Izvelas Izmainas killed the Basilisk in combat (bc yes I did heroically intervene after he fell back 2").
And by the bottom of T2 he had killed less than 10 models. He got several Nurgling bases, a few Pink Horrors, and had made a dent in a couple of my princes. His Scions (all four units of them) dropped into my backfield and didn't do much, and I had held my Flamers back in order to counter this.
At this point, he conceded. Had we continued, I would have killed all the Scions with the Flamers and perhaps a bit of Pink shooting, thus securing my backfield. I would have charged the Russes with Khorne, Nurgle, and Arioch. Mortal wounds would've taken out a Chimera.
So a great starting show for me at this six round tournament! It was 38-4 at the end, putting me in 3rd place overall.
Game 2 VERSUS Mirror Match Magnus!
Spoiler:
I have played this guy several times in the past couple months with iterations of my list, and have won each time by a narrow margin. We're pretty closely matched, and each game has been a back-and-forth bloodbath. He's pretty competitive, and has even made matrices detailing which ITC Secondaries he should take against which opponents; as well as a matrix for his opponents detailing how many characters he has, how many models, how many etc. A bit over the top, imo, but to each his own.
His list was TSons Supreme (Ahriman, 3 Princes, Magnus), TSons Battalion (Sorcerer, Sorcerer, 3x10 Cultists), and Tzeentch Battalion (Tzerald, Changeling, 3x10 Brims, 9x Flamers). So not exactly a mirror match, but quite a bit of confluence. Our Psychic phases were INTENSE.
We had the corners w/ middle bubble deployment. We had a nearly identical deployment--a spear of princes (and lil Ahriman) tipped by Magnus or Arioch, respectively. My Nurglings sat near his far side line, and he countered with all the cultists and two Brims.
One Top He got first turn, and played very conservatively. His Ahriman moved to support cultists against my Nurglings, and all his other stuff crept forward. Arioch took FIFTEEN mortals in this psychic phase. He used the TSons stratagem on Gateway to give Magnus a net +4 cast, and caused quite a few wounds on Princes (but fortunately rolled rather low on the damage).
The rest of the game was really a struggle for the center point, with various charges, interventions, and multiassaults. It was brutal. The best part for me was when his Ahriman had a perils, I knocked it up to 2d3 damage, and he burned out, killing a variety of cultists. That was T2. I managed to kill Magnus with Khorne and Nurgle together (not even that 3++ can save you against that much damage).
It was all such a psychic blur that I can't remember the specific details as well, but I ended up winning 22-19. I think I eked it out because of secondaries. His 9 Flamers dropping into my backfield gave me quite a scare, but I cleared them off through Pink shooting and a gutsy charge.
Game 3 VERSUS Imperial Knights
Spoiler:
I played against the first place player. He's pretty good, probably the best in our meta and also does very well at national tournaments. Usually plays Nids, but switched it up because he felt like easy mode His list is three Taranis Knights (Crusader , Gallant, Warden), a Freeblade Raven Castellan (big plasma, 4 missiles), and a Guard battalion (2 Commanders, one Warlord, and 3x10 Infantry).
We had Dawn of War deployment, with four objectives (two in the very middle of each deployment zone, two near the short edges midfield). I camped my Brims on mine, Nurglings on the other two, and he camped his Guard on his, with a squad aimed at each center field objective. Knights grouped up in the middle.
One Top I got first turn, and surged forward. I moved some Pinks up to reinforce the Nurglings on a side objective, and all the big boys moved forward in formation to try and engage a Knight. I was out of range for Gateway (sadly), but I did make a T1 charge with a TSons Prince. He caused roughly six wounds to a Knight (this opponent has an entire game of above average saves) and dies a squishy death. This was a serious mistake on my part, and I wish I had instead weathered a turn of shooting at Big Bird, with all my princes lined up behind, and then gang-banged two knights next turn. I should've played more conservatively. I also failed Treason, boo.
One Bottom There was a lot of shooting here that gave some damage to Arioch. But nothing noteworthy happened besides some Guardsmen moving forward and stripping a few Nurgling wounds.
Two Top Flamers came in and DID NOT MANAGE TO KILL AN INFANTRY SQUAD. This just shows how crazy he was doing on saves during this whole game. 6d6 S4 -1 hits on a 10 man guard squad, and they don't all die. The probability of doing at least 10 wounds is 74% I charged the Gallant (double cc knight) with Nurgle, Khorne, and the remaining TSons, and Khorne did 22 wounds, with Nurgle finishing it off. That was really crazy, and I immediately kissed my Khorne prince, and thanked the Fates that I had decided to go with that choice in the end. Thanks to small_gods for the suggestion above. Totally worth it. When the Knight died it exploded, causing wounds to three princes, the LoC, and another Knight.
I also did some more damage across the Knights with mortals, and my big Pink blob plopped onto my objective because I didn't want a Knight getting in there and stealing it from me. They actually did SEVEN wounds to the Knight they shot at (FlickerFire means wounds on 5s!).
Two Bottom Nurgle died. Nurglings died. Flamers died. Tzerald died to Shieldbreaker. Arioch took some damage. The Pinks took a wound or two from stubbers, but the main guns were focused on bigger targets.
Three Top My smaller unit of Pinks ran forward to engage a lonely Guard Commander in a ruin. This will lead to one of two situations, out of my control, that resulted in my loss. I did enough mortals that I could a second knight (I think the Warden) in cc with a prince, and I managed to kill the Castellan with Khorne, who did TWENTY-FIVE more damage. Unbelievable. Mathhammer says that my average should be 19 damage, so I'm definitely getting above average. Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit, but he's good. And just wait till game five, hehehe.
Pink blob finished off some stray guardsmen, and did another wound to a knight. Not a bad showing for them.
Three Bottom Second TSons Prince died. This leaves me with Khorne on a couple wounds, menacing the Guard Warlord; Ahriman, near center field giving psychic support; Arioch with 5 wounds left; the huge blob of Horrors midfield; a couple Nurglings on an objective; and 8 Pink rushing the second cowardly Commander. He's got a Crusader, sixish Guardsmen, and two Commanders.
Well, hit the and that Warden, in a single round of shooting, manages to kill Ahriman (with the gatling), Khorne Prince (with a Flamer and stubber) and Arioch (with the melta). Note that I had forgotten all game about my -1D warlord trait, and upon the killing blow, which melta (at half range) caused 6D, still killed him for 5D This really turned the tables, and was some very unfortunate rolling on my part.
Four Top 8 Pinks move into position and shoot the cowardly Commander, dealing two wounds. Big blob of Pinks shoots the Knight, who is heavily wounded, and does another wound or two (but not enough). I still have a single Flamer, who moves off an objective to try and root out the remaining Infantry Squad.
8 Pinks charge the cowardly commander, and do two wounds. He fails both saves. He uses his last command point to make the save, and regains the CP.
Four Bottom The single Flamer dies to las. The Warden charges my Pink blob and everyone piles in. I have so many splits, I do no damage, and the pile-in definitely secures my objective. I take my morale (because I lost a LOT of guys) and I roll a 1 Four Pinks come back, getting me to 26 models. Heh. The Commander in cc kills a Horror, and I give him a wound, his final wound. He fails his save; a CP is spent to reroll. Save is made, CP is regained. This means that I don't really have a hope of clearing off his back objective or getting his Warlord.
Five Top Horrors are all in combat. The EXACT SAME THING happens with the Commander, except this time he finally runs out of CP. I lose some Horrors, but nothing terrible. I'm still winning on objectives because of two little Nurgling bases that are hiding behind a hill.
Five Bottom Warden falls back, shoots some Horrors, and charges the Nurglings. The Nurglings freaking survive, because the Warden is so damaged he misses a lot. Guardsmen rush to an objective.
Six Top Pink Blob, with loads of models left (still 20+) spread out to hold the objective while trying for some shots at the Warlord (who was in range for some reason?) and the Infantry squad who had moved moved moved to an objective. Lesser unit of Pinks move toward the Warlord, but are in a ruin and can't see.
Pink blob fires 7 models (21 shots) and the Warlord takes 2 wounds, whereas the average would be 3.5. This is, again, where his saving rolls are absurdly (maliciously?) hot. Right at the crux, he makes it again. Some more Pinks shoot at the infantry and squish them. Knight squishes last Nurgling. (I couldn't fall back, hold the objective, and also avoid Intervention, so I had no choice.)
Six Bottom Knight kills a few Horrors, game over.
I lost 21-26, and I can't help but feel that if just one of three specific things had gone differently, I would've won. If either Khorne, Ahriman, or Arioch had survived the Warden shooting round, I could've killed at least the Warlord, and maybe even the Warden. If that Commander hadn't rerolled three saves, I would've been out of combat and killing the Warlord with those Pinks. Or if my final round of Pink shooting had not been unstatistically saved against, I would've got some more points and denied him some.
But it's a dice game in the end. I need new dice.
Skullreaver did approximately NINETY DAMAGE across the tournament against Knights. That's just in two games, so an average of FORTY-FIVE DAMAGE against a Knight opponent. That is INSANE. I seriously cannot get my head around it, I have never done that much damage with a single unit before. My hardest-hitting unit, a Grey Knight GMDK, will do about 20 damage against a big target, if he's lucky. And he's 300pts, nearly double what the Prince is.
I'll post the other three rounds later. For now, I'm typed out.
This was awesome to hear and a great read. I'm looking forward to reading about the next 3 rounds. Congrats on 2nd!
Let's hope there's something Slanneshi for 40k as well.
@barboggo - was the tournament not using the "rule of three"? Or does the fact that TS have "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" rather than "Daemon Prince" allow you to circumvent that cap?
@Sokhar - Can the second TSon DP not cast on other Legions? Only, Delightful Agonies is such a good spell, it’s a shame not to see it on the only Slaaneshi DP
yes you can but 100% sure in next CA or maybe already with incoming FAQ they will fix it and you will not play more than 3 dp's (and for me is only a good thing).
Sokhar wrote: A couple pages back, someone tossed out the idea of running a list with all the "best" Daemon Princes available, as a counter to Imperial Knight lists. I looked at putting together one of my own, and after determining that you need a Thousand Sons (Tzeentch DP + Ahriman), Chaos Space Marine (Slaanesh Elixir), and Chaos Daemons (Skullreaver and Corruption princes) detachment to fit them all, also considered how to make the most of the little guys meant to screen and support those monsters. I came up with the following list....
Thousand Sons Battalion
Ahriman on Disc--Warp Time, Death Hex, Weaver of Fates 166
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch--Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Helm of the Third Eye, Gaze of Fate, < >, 180
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch--Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Dark Matter Crystal, < >, < >, 180
Tzaangor Shaman--< > 90
Tzaangors--30 Tzaangors with Tzaangor Blades, Brayhorn 220
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns 40
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns 40
Chaos Space Marines Battalion
Daemon Prince--Slaanesh, Alpha Legion, Wings, Malefic Talons x 2, Intoxicating Elixir, Diabolic Strength 180
Dark Apostle--Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--40 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
Chaos Cultists--10 Cultists with Autoguns, Slaanesh, Alpha Legion
How do the TS Daemon Princes have relics? Doesn't the Warlord need to be a TS character to get access to that faction's relics? Or does using the relic stratagem circumvent this limitation?
What would be your usual target for the Black Matter Crystal? It's costing 2CP so there must be a clear plan in mind.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Cephalobeard, I'd be interested to see what list of yours isn't working for you, because I've been doing quite well with Daemons Primary.
I did really well at the GT (got 2nd out of 32 players, went 5-1), and I thought I'd share my list and games with you all for the betterment of 40kind
Here's my final list. I actually combined the two lists and took a suggestion I got here.
Thousand Sons Supreme Command (+1CP)
HQ Ahriman on Disc – 166
Powers: Diabolic Strength, Death Hex, Glamour
Parveidota Upuris, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons, Helm relic – 180
Powers: Weaver, Warptime
Izvelas Izmainas, Prince of Tzeentch, Wings, 2 Talons – 180
Powers: Gift of Chaos, Temporal Manipulation
Reinforcement Points (for splits and an occasional Spawn) – 85
My general strategy is to put the LoC at the front of a spear, with the Princes arranged around him depending on enemy mobility. I want the LoC in the front to block as much damage as possible, since he has the best save, highest toughness, and most wounds of all my models. And while no slouch in combat, obviously my damage is generated from other sources.
Game 1 VERSUS Imperial Guard
Spoiler:
This guy had a severely unoptimized list, and he said it was his 3rd game in 8e and his first tournament ever. Props for coming to such a big event. He won the Purple Heart award for losing all six games but still playing all six! Throughout our game, I reminded him to use his Regimental bonus, his Russ double-shoot, and even told him about Vengeance for Cadia strat.
His list was, roughly, a Cadian brigade with Creed, Commisar, Tempestor Prime, four Infantry Squads (two in Chimeras), two five-man Scion units (with no plasma), a Scion Command (again no plasma), a Command Squad (Standard, vox, etc), a Master of Ordinance, three Armoured Sentinels with plascans, autocannon HWT, las HWT, mortar HWT; and then a Cadian Spearhead with Company Commander, Basilisk, Wyvern, and three LRBTs (mix of turrets).
One Top I went first (I had fewer drops). We had Hammer and Anvil deployment, five objectives, one in the center, with a rather huge hill+tower in center field. T1 I moved everything up the field, advancing with all the Princes except one, who got seriously buffed (3++, -1 to hit, Diabolic Strength) and then Warptimed forward. This guy, Izvelas Izmainas, then gave Creed a very lovely Gift of Chaos (9" range bc TSons)...and yes I beat his toughness, and OF COURSE I did 5 wounds. And a Spawn popped out and tied up an infantry squad on an objective.
LoC, Nurgle, and Ahriman all did some wounds to Sentinels. Izvelas Izmainas shredded the same infantry squad the Spawn was facing, and that was top of 1.
One Bottom This was really awful for him. LoC had a 2++, weathered all the Russ shooting with minimal damage and the Nurglings took some Wyvern and small arms fire. The Crystal Prince took a couple wounds, but was largely unscathed, thanks to the modifiers on him. The Spawn died.
Two Top I moved everything up, except the Flamers who were waiting mid-field, hidden, to counter the Scion drop. Arioch got a nice Gateway off on a Sentinel, hitting three other units. Izvelas Izmainas healed himself and moved over to the lovely grouping of Commisar, Ordinance, Basilisk, and Wyvern. The Pink blob, which had dropped with Vashta Nerada, cleared off an infantry squad and a few bases of HWTs.
Izvelas Izmainas multicharged the Basilisk and both characters, and killed both characters. Nurgle charged and destroyed a sentinel. Arioch multicharged a sentinel and an infantry squad, killing the Sentinel and causing the infantry to flee in morale. Parveidota Upuris killed an infantry squad.
At this point, there were a couple Chimeras (one full), the Basilisk in combat, three LRBTs, and a character.
Two Bottom He dropped in the Scions, and killed a few Pinks. The Russes plinked at Arioch, who took minimal damage. The Wyvern shot at lesser daemons. The final infantry squad unloaded and shot into Nurgle, doing nothing of note. Izvelas Izmainas killed the Basilisk in combat (bc yes I did heroically intervene after he fell back 2").
And by the bottom of T2 he had killed less than 10 models. He got several Nurgling bases, a few Pink Horrors, and had made a dent in a couple of my princes. His Scions (all four units of them) dropped into my backfield and didn't do much, and I had held my Flamers back in order to counter this.
At this point, he conceded. Had we continued, I would have killed all the Scions with the Flamers and perhaps a bit of Pink shooting, thus securing my backfield. I would have charged the Russes with Khorne, Nurgle, and Arioch. Mortal wounds would've taken out a Chimera.
So a great starting show for me at this six round tournament! It was 38-4 at the end, putting me in 3rd place overall.
Game 2 VERSUS Mirror Match Magnus!
Spoiler:
I have played this guy several times in the past couple months with iterations of my list, and have won each time by a narrow margin. We're pretty closely matched, and each game has been a back-and-forth bloodbath. He's pretty competitive, and has even made matrices detailing which ITC Secondaries he should take against which opponents; as well as a matrix for his opponents detailing how many characters he has, how many models, how many etc. A bit over the top, imo, but to each his own.
His list was TSons Supreme (Ahriman, 3 Princes, Magnus), TSons Battalion (Sorcerer, Sorcerer, 3x10 Cultists), and Tzeentch Battalion (Tzerald, Changeling, 3x10 Brims, 9x Flamers). So not exactly a mirror match, but quite a bit of confluence. Our Psychic phases were INTENSE.
We had the corners w/ middle bubble deployment. We had a nearly identical deployment--a spear of princes (and lil Ahriman) tipped by Magnus or Arioch, respectively. My Nurglings sat near his far side line, and he countered with all the cultists and two Brims.
One Top He got first turn, and played very conservatively. His Ahriman moved to support cultists against my Nurglings, and all his other stuff crept forward. Arioch took FIFTEEN mortals in this psychic phase. He used the TSons stratagem on Gateway to give Magnus a net +4 cast, and caused quite a few wounds on Princes (but fortunately rolled rather low on the damage).
The rest of the game was really a struggle for the center point, with various charges, interventions, and multiassaults. It was brutal. The best part for me was when his Ahriman had a perils, I knocked it up to 2d3 damage, and he burned out, killing a variety of cultists. That was T2. I managed to kill Magnus with Khorne and Nurgle together (not even that 3++ can save you against that much damage).
It was all such a psychic blur that I can't remember the specific details as well, but I ended up winning 22-19. I think I eked it out because of secondaries. His 9 Flamers dropping into my backfield gave me quite a scare, but I cleared them off through Pink shooting and a gutsy charge.
Game 3 VERSUS Imperial Knights
Spoiler:
I played against the first place player. He's pretty good, probably the best in our meta and also does very well at national tournaments. Usually plays Nids, but switched it up because he felt like easy mode His list is three Taranis Knights (Crusader , Gallant, Warden), a Freeblade Raven Castellan (big plasma, 4 missiles), and a Guard battalion (2 Commanders, one Warlord, and 3x10 Infantry).
We had Dawn of War deployment, with four objectives (two in the very middle of each deployment zone, two near the short edges midfield). I camped my Brims on mine, Nurglings on the other two, and he camped his Guard on his, with a squad aimed at each center field objective. Knights grouped up in the middle.
One Top I got first turn, and surged forward. I moved some Pinks up to reinforce the Nurglings on a side objective, and all the big boys moved forward in formation to try and engage a Knight. I was out of range for Gateway (sadly), but I did make a T1 charge with a TSons Prince. He caused roughly six wounds to a Knight (this opponent has an entire game of above average saves) and dies a squishy death. This was a serious mistake on my part, and I wish I had instead weathered a turn of shooting at Big Bird, with all my princes lined up behind, and then gang-banged two knights next turn. I should've played more conservatively. I also failed Treason, boo.
One Bottom There was a lot of shooting here that gave some damage to Arioch. But nothing noteworthy happened besides some Guardsmen moving forward and stripping a few Nurgling wounds.
Two Top Flamers came in and DID NOT MANAGE TO KILL AN INFANTRY SQUAD. This just shows how crazy he was doing on saves during this whole game. 6d6 S4 -1 hits on a 10 man guard squad, and they don't all die. The probability of doing at least 10 wounds is 74% I charged the Gallant (double cc knight) with Nurgle, Khorne, and the remaining TSons, and Khorne did 22 wounds, with Nurgle finishing it off. That was really crazy, and I immediately kissed my Khorne prince, and thanked the Fates that I had decided to go with that choice in the end. Thanks to small_gods for the suggestion above. Totally worth it. When the Knight died it exploded, causing wounds to three princes, the LoC, and another Knight.
I also did some more damage across the Knights with mortals, and my big Pink blob plopped onto my objective because I didn't want a Knight getting in there and stealing it from me. They actually did SEVEN wounds to the Knight they shot at (FlickerFire means wounds on 5s!).
Two Bottom Nurgle died. Nurglings died. Flamers died. Tzerald died to Shieldbreaker. Arioch took some damage. The Pinks took a wound or two from stubbers, but the main guns were focused on bigger targets.
Three Top My smaller unit of Pinks ran forward to engage a lonely Guard Commander in a ruin. This will lead to one of two situations, out of my control, that resulted in my loss. I did enough mortals that I could a second knight (I think the Warden) in cc with a prince, and I managed to kill the Castellan with Khorne, who did TWENTY-FIVE more damage. Unbelievable. Mathhammer says that my average should be 19 damage, so I'm definitely getting above average. Maybe I'm giving this guy too much credit, but he's good. And just wait till game five, hehehe.
Pink blob finished off some stray guardsmen, and did another wound to a knight. Not a bad showing for them.
Three Bottom Second TSons Prince died. This leaves me with Khorne on a couple wounds, menacing the Guard Warlord; Ahriman, near center field giving psychic support; Arioch with 5 wounds left; the huge blob of Horrors midfield; a couple Nurglings on an objective; and 8 Pink rushing the second cowardly Commander. He's got a Crusader, sixish Guardsmen, and two Commanders.
Well, hit the and that Warden, in a single round of shooting, manages to kill Ahriman (with the gatling), Khorne Prince (with a Flamer and stubber) and Arioch (with the melta). Note that I had forgotten all game about my -1D warlord trait, and upon the killing blow, which melta (at half range) caused 6D, still killed him for 5D This really turned the tables, and was some very unfortunate rolling on my part.
Four Top 8 Pinks move into position and shoot the cowardly Commander, dealing two wounds. Big blob of Pinks shoots the Knight, who is heavily wounded, and does another wound or two (but not enough). I still have a single Flamer, who moves off an objective to try and root out the remaining Infantry Squad.
8 Pinks charge the cowardly commander, and do two wounds. He fails both saves. He uses his last command point to make the save, and regains the CP.
Four Bottom The single Flamer dies to las. The Warden charges my Pink blob and everyone piles in. I have so many splits, I do no damage, and the pile-in definitely secures my objective. I take my morale (because I lost a LOT of guys) and I roll a 1 Four Pinks come back, getting me to 26 models. Heh. The Commander in cc kills a Horror, and I give him a wound, his final wound. He fails his save; a CP is spent to reroll. Save is made, CP is regained. This means that I don't really have a hope of clearing off his back objective or getting his Warlord.
Five Top Horrors are all in combat. The EXACT SAME THING happens with the Commander, except this time he finally runs out of CP. I lose some Horrors, but nothing terrible. I'm still winning on objectives because of two little Nurgling bases that are hiding behind a hill.
Five Bottom Warden falls back, shoots some Horrors, and charges the Nurglings. The Nurglings freaking survive, because the Warden is so damaged he misses a lot. Guardsmen rush to an objective.
Six Top Pink Blob, with loads of models left (still 20+) spread out to hold the objective while trying for some shots at the Warlord (who was in range for some reason?) and the Infantry squad who had moved moved moved to an objective. Lesser unit of Pinks move toward the Warlord, but are in a ruin and can't see.
Pink blob fires 7 models (21 shots) and the Warlord takes 2 wounds, whereas the average would be 3.5. This is, again, where his saving rolls are absurdly (maliciously?) hot. Right at the crux, he makes it again. Some more Pinks shoot at the infantry and squish them. Knight squishes last Nurgling. (I couldn't fall back, hold the objective, and also avoid Intervention, so I had no choice.)
Six Bottom Knight kills a few Horrors, game over.
I lost 21-26, and I can't help but feel that if just one of three specific things had gone differently, I would've won. If either Khorne, Ahriman, or Arioch had survived the Warden shooting round, I could've killed at least the Warlord, and maybe even the Warden. If that Commander hadn't rerolled three saves, I would've been out of combat and killing the Warlord with those Pinks. Or if my final round of Pink shooting had not been unstatistically saved against, I would've got some more points and denied him some.
But it's a dice game in the end. I need new dice.
Skullreaver did approximately NINETY DAMAGE across the tournament against Knights. That's just in two games, so an average of FORTY-FIVE DAMAGE against a Knight opponent. That is INSANE. I seriously cannot get my head around it, I have never done that much damage with a single unit before. My hardest-hitting unit, a Grey Knight GMDK, will do about 20 damage against a big target, if he's lucky. And he's 300pts, nearly double what the Prince is.
I'll post the other three rounds later. For now, I'm typed out.
This was awesome to hear and a great read. I'm looking forward to reading about the next 3 rounds. Congrats on 2nd!
Cool list, interesting your gt didnt follow the rulings of bao, atc, or nova
Asura Varuna wrote: Can't you just deploy them in the webway for 1CP though? I guess the beta rules prevent you from using that on turn 1 though.
Because the target of the Dark Matter Crystal starts on the table, they are eligible to redeploy anywhere turn 1. Turn 1 assault by Tzaangors is much more impactful than turn 2. Plus you can Warp Time the Tzaangors after redeploying, to ensure you get the charge.
And yes, you can use relic-gaining stratagems to get relics from factions other than your warlord's. The warlord restriction is only for your free relic, beyond that if you have access to the relevant stratagem and pay the points, you can put them on an appropriate character.
TS have "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" rather than "Daemon Prince" allow you to circumvent that cap?
Yep, this. You can take a gazillion daemon princes kinda like you can take a gazillion carnifexes since there are several datasheets.
It makes me so happy that Khorne daemon princes are such beasts vs knights. Bloodletters too. Khorne is pleased.
Just an fyi. All itc major events have ruled that demon prince is a demon prince, regardless of data entry. So max 3.
Not that it matters, most people squeeze 3 in max anyway.
Did not know that, thanks for clarifying. One Khorne/Nurgle prince and two ksons princes in a supreme command with Ahriman?
Depends on what you wanna do. I'm actually leaning more toward two nurgle princes and one 1k Sons; because an exalted sorcerer or Terminator sorc can act like a "buff bot" instead of a prince. Of course, this is all dependant on the list makeup and what you want everything to do. I had great success with 1 Death Guard prince w/ supporting plate, and 2 1k Sons princes (one with axe, one with claws), but found I was missing my DR rolls when it came to things that dished out mortal wounds (like explosions, or those cheeseball siegebreaker missiles)
T-sons Daemon Princes are by far the most powerful, but Khorne has the best relics. A skullreaver DP is one of the most points efficient anti-heavy units in the game, while T-sons DPs are just incredibly well rounded and strong.
vaklor4 wrote: T-sons Daemon Princes are by far the most powerful, but Khorne has the best relics. A skullreaver DP is one of the most points efficient anti-heavy units in the game, while T-sons DPs are just incredibly well rounded and strong.
I dont disagree. I like the staying power of the nurgle ones myself, plus they can get incredibly strong with spells like virulent blessing (axe prince becomes damage 7 on 6's to wound)
Hmm, good question. There’s about as much difference between the four Carnifexes as there are between the DPs, buuuuut Nidzilla was Codex-supported for several editions, whereas I think the DP power rangers required Apocalypse or late 7ed ‘take whatever you want to buy lol’ supplements to field?
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm, good question. There’s about as much difference between the four Carnifexes as there are between the DPs, buuuuut Nidzilla was Codex-supported for several editions, whereas I think the DP power rangers required Apocalypse or late 7ed ‘take whatever you want to buy lol’ supplements to field?
I believe it was found any case where you have a codex entry for the same model means take up to 3.
However, in the case of Carnifexes, its 1-3 per slot I believe, so you can still take 9 if you wanted to (not that anyone would...). Russes it was also ruled all varients are the the same, so you cant take 3 of one type, and 3 of another.
But yes, even if it were legal, I don't think I'd take all 5 of my demon princes in the same list; it doesn't leave enough points for "meat" in my list. I like some bodies to control the field.
So what about fw models etc? As it is without rule change from tournament etc you can do like 40 russ chassis on field. You might not even need squadron rule to fill 2k with russes
rvd1ofakind wrote: Top chaos tournament units in the summer (20+ people tournaments, top 3/53 placings)
All we got at the top are casters and chaff lol. The only heavy guns used with any consistency are obliterators and PBCs. Not even a single dreadnought in there except a decimator hanging on near the bottom. Guess there's no real way for us to win a shooting match with Castellans all over the place.
Hmm, are Corruption DPs not really a thing in competitive?
Unrelated: I’ve been musing on Flamers of Tzeentch. They’re certainly less efficient in most ‘facing a horde’ situations than more conventional weight of fire units - Horrors, Noise Marines, perhaps HB rapiers, maybe even Cultist hordes.
What about when targets have got extreme hit penalties? Culexus abuse has been shut down, but are they still out there? Nurgle armies have got common access to -2 to be hit. Daemonspark & Flickering Flames doesn’t mean a whole lot when you’re hitting on 6’s.
I think if Sigmar’s new Summoning system proves useful and fun, we’ll likely see something similar in 9ed. (Or CA.) I can certainly see myself packing them as part of a sideboard if Reinforcement Points get overhauled.
Cullexus is still very good and strong. But the problem with flamers is simple: short range and bad durability. Against a good player, you will never hit targets you want to hit. And since most stuff is -1 outside 12'', you can just deepstrike 9'' away and shoot or just melee them
Corruption DPs are too swingy, if the relic was a flat 3 dmg, it would be a top tier relic, but at D3 dmg with only 4 attacks, I don't think it's worth it ever. You'll be S9 (I believe) and re-rolling all wounds. So the obvious target for that much oomph, is T7/8, the stuff that is hard to deal with. However they have so many wounds, that with 4D3 dmg, you might make the model slightly uncomfortable, even with virulent blessing you are banking on a 6 to wound, and then rolling a decent die. Every time I have used it, I regret not taking claws instead, which deal with T6 and below, superbly better than the sword, due to having so many more attacks and flat damage.
So I'm doing an escalation league and i'm playing khorne army. I've done ok, but im a bit worried on the scale up from week to week on which i should add. I plan at my 1750 list is to have 3 skull cannons. I got 1 cannon right now in my list, but when should I add the 2nd. Ive got just about everything khorne related.
I ran him once with a few other Khorne daemon princes and Bloodletters. Turns out my opponent had brought wrack and Talos spam. An'ggrath killed like 3 Wracks and 1-shotted Lilith Hesperax before getting shot off the table.
Consider asking your opponent if they're ok with you running him with pre-nerf points values. He was never great but the CA nerfs on all of the big FW daemons really put the nail in the coffin.
weaver9 wrote: What do people think of An'ggrath the Unbound? He costs a ton but is also VERY tough (t8, 2+/4++).
Anyone ever tried him out?
I've ran him a few times, once in a Titanic only battle where he got shot off the board turn 1 and a couple of times in 2000pts. I've found that in those 2000pt games he stays on the board a hell of a long time (DS and +1 invul stratagem helps with that) but he just doesn't have the utility that you want for a 888pt model; because he's melee only, he'll at max be killing 1 or 2 units on the charge but that's if he charges and if he isn't fighting something with even an average invul (d6 damage is overwhelmingly poor against a big model with a good invul and maybe even an ignore wounds save).
I reckon the big Lord of Change is probably more worth it; he's been costed and recosted by morons but he has a base 3++ (which can go to 2++ with the stratagem), has an amazing shooting attack and is arguably better than An'ggrath in CC (less attacks but he's always S16 and does 6 damage against vehicles and monsters rather than An's d6).
Why are Nurglings in the top spots? I have used them and they just sucked crap so bad! They infiltrated, made it into combat, didn't do anything, lost a few models, then got shot up super bad after a few fallbacks. Just not worth it aside from CP cheapo battalion I think.
9 Flamers of Tzeentch backed by a Fluxmaster and the Changeling for a 6+FNP is pretty decent I think. Toss in a Tzeentch DP that's a good Supreme Command isnt' it?
Flamers are actually not bad if you team them with mutalith vortex beasts and heralds. They can put out a surprisingly high number of wounds to something.
Malathrim wrote: Why are Nurglings in the top spots? I have used them and they just sucked crap so bad! They infiltrated, made it into combat, didn't do anything, lost a few models, then got shot up super bad after a few fallbacks. Just not worth it aside from CP cheapo battalion I think.
9 Flamers of Tzeentch backed by a Fluxmaster and the Changeling for a 6+FNP is pretty decent I think. Toss in a Tzeentch DP that's a good Supreme Command isnt' it?
You are not using nurglings right. The only time they should be in combat is if you are trying to lock a vehicle or support unit. Their use, is to grab objectives and be annoying for a 54-point troop choice. In ITC, they already valuable for Recon secondaries and also to block out deep Strikers.
Weaver's got me interested in trying to run an Exalted Greater Daemon again, so here's a 3k list (because 2k was literally just Big Bird and 2 Battalions of Horrors):
It's Big Bird + Bloodletter Bombs + Daemon Princes + some other filler units. 14CP base, spend 6CP to throw the two bombs into Deepstrike, that leaves 8CP for four phases of Super Bird with a 2++.
I've been running the numbers against Shadowswords, Imperial Knights, etc. and Big Bird really seems like an unkillable monster, he could even take on a Titan if he stays on top of his 2++.
I find it od no one takes the LOC. LOC is an absolute beast in my games. With impossible robe and -1 damage. He never dies...and he is a super beast in CC. High probability of mega smite with long AF range. Mad mobility. At 330 hes not cheap but a good centerpiece that doesn't autodie turn 1.
Xenomancers wrote: I find it od no one takes the LOC. LOC is an absolute beast in my games. With impossible robe and -1 damage. He never dies...and he is a super beast in CC. High probability of mega smite with long AF range. Mad mobility. At 330 hes not cheap but a good centerpiece that doesn't autodie turn 1.
I'm thinking about buying and painting him. The only downside i see is that STR on his attacks is 6/7 which is not as powerful and Magnus 16. But i think he can compliment Magnus, not replace him.
BoomWolf wrote:Huh. no exalted flamers on the list?
I'd expect to see them getting SOME love. they got serious firepower, and are easily hidden.
Can't really fit one in without sacrificing something.
Xenomancers wrote:I find it od no one takes the LOC. LOC is an absolute beast in my games. With impossible robe and -1 damage. He never dies...and he is a super beast in CC. High probability of mega smite with long AF range. Mad mobility. At 330 hes not cheap but a good centerpiece that doesn't autodie turn 1.
Problem is his damage output: he doesn't have the melee capability to take on other big things and his psychic powers available to him are awful. Besides that, he's a bit expensive for a very survivable distraction.
BoomWolf wrote:Huh. no exalted flamers on the list?
I'd expect to see them getting SOME love. they got serious firepower, and are easily hidden.
Can't really fit one in without sacrificing something.
Xenomancers wrote:I find it od no one takes the LOC. LOC is an absolute beast in my games. With impossible robe and -1 damage. He never dies...and he is a super beast in CC. High probability of mega smite with long AF range. Mad mobility. At 330 hes not cheap but a good centerpiece that doesn't autodie turn 1.
Problem is his damage output: he doesn't have the melee capability to take on other big things and his psychic powers available to him are awful. Besides that, he's a bit expensive for a very survivable distraction.
LoC vs Knight does around 2 from smite + 1d6 wounds after all failed hits and wounds. So 5 wounds to Knight. It is not bad but not the best.
We can take DP of Khorne with axe artifact and do more for 180pts.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: LoC vs Knight does around 2 from smite + 1d6 wounds after all failed hits and wounds. So 5 wounds to Knight. It is not bad but not the best.
We can take DP of Khorne with axe artifact and do more for 180pts.
But that's why I want to try out Big Bird, since he will do 9.7W to a regular knight in shooting (with the power for +1 to wound) and 25W wounds to a regular knight in combat on average. He's also even tougher than the robe LoC since he has 27W, T8 as well as the 2++ invul and the -1 damage trait.
Malathrim wrote: Why are Nurglings in the top spots? I have used them and they just sucked crap so bad! They infiltrated, made it into combat, didn't do anything, lost a few models, then got shot up super bad after a few fallbacks. Just not worth it aside from CP cheapo battalion I think.
9 Flamers of Tzeentch backed by a Fluxmaster and the Changeling for a 6+FNP is pretty decent I think. Toss in a Tzeentch DP that's a good Supreme Command isnt' it?
You are not using nurglings right. The only time they should be in combat is if you are trying to lock a vehicle or support unit. Their use, is to grab objectives and be annoying for a 54-point troop choice. In ITC, they already valuable for Recon secondaries and also to block out deep Strikers.
Yeah. Grots don't have offensive output worth a much either(handy at most for clearing IG chaff) yet are generally the MVP's of my armies! Cheap wounds so they control board, soak up firepower, take objectives etc...Albeit grots rather than nurglings but still both units are utility rather than kill. Cheap units have value of it's own. And nurgling deployment rule is great.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: LoC vs Knight does around 2 from smite + 1d6 wounds after all failed hits and wounds. So 5 wounds to Knight. It is not bad but not the best.
We can take DP of Khorne with axe artifact and do more for 180pts.
But that's why I want to try out Big Bird, since he will do 9.7W to a regular knight in shooting (with the power for +1 to wound) and 25W wounds to a regular knight in combat on average. He's also even tougher than the robe LoC since he has 27W, T8 as well as the 2++ invul and the -1 damage trait.
My list at start of 8th was aetaos/malefic lords/giant chaos spawn/brimstone's. So I know how awesome aetaod can be in the field, but he isn't worth is 1500 pt cost right now(he was totally crushed with CA) and far too expensive to be worth it
Still, on paper at least, he looks like he should be able to take on an entire army. I'm going to try him out tomorrow in a 2500pts game against 5 Imperial Knights (some regular knights, some FW), so I'll see how he holds up there. I might also try him out against a horde army and see how he does there.
Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.
Glitcha wrote: Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.
The biggest issue with Summoning is its basically reserve points that you aren't guarenteed to successfully use... on top of it, you can't move before summoning. Plus the game is still extremely alpha-strike heavy, especially with Knights being so prevalent. I dunno, I just can't stomach the uncertainty; I can see it being useful to bring back a character like Epidemus, but after you die I believe the tally resets, so... dunno. Might be nifty to bring in a unit of Brimstones to hold an objective last second.
Glitcha wrote: Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.
The biggest issue with Summoning is its basically reserve points that you aren't guarenteed to successfully use... on top of it, you can't move before summoning. Plus the game is still extremely alpha-strike heavy, especially with Knights being so prevalent. I dunno, I just can't stomach the uncertainty; I can see it being useful to bring back a character like Epidemus, but after you die I believe the tally resets, so... dunno. Might be nifty to bring in a unit of Brimstones to hold an objective last second.
In my recent game. from the example in my post above. I used the points to summon back 5 of my 10 flesh hounds that had got killed in the first turn. Which yes I was not able to move, but the character summoning was a hearld on Juggernaut that was already in CC. I don't think you would ever summon with the big guys that you want to keep moving on the table. It would be more for a utility character that is supporting your army. Get them some place on the table where they can camp for a turn and then summon whatever unit you are waiting. The nice thing is you don't have to declare what unit. Just that you are going to summon and the number of d6's you plan to use. (1-3)
Glitcha wrote: Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.
If you’re taking a horde of Pink Horrors and have budgeted to split into blues & brims, bring some Flamers in case they get ignored and you get a Tzeentch or unaligned character in a position where they don’t want to move.
Alternatively, if you’ve got a CSM gunline and don’t have space for a Daemon detachment, you might summon some plague Bearers in the path of some oncoming traffic.
If those sound like obscure unreliable niches, it’s because Summoning is very weak. Keep an eye on the Sigmar 2.0 Summoning rules and cross your fingers we’ll get something as viable and interesting as that come 9ed or CA18.
Glitcha wrote: Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.
If you’re taking a horde of Pink Horrors and have budgeted to split into blues & brims, bring some Flamers in case they get ignored and you get a Tzeentch or unaligned character in a position where they don’t want to move.
Alternatively, if you’ve got a CSM gunline and don’t have space for a Daemon detachment, you might summon some plague Bearers in the path of some oncoming traffic.
If those sound like obscure unreliable niches, it’s because Summoning is very weak. Keep an eye on the Sigmar 2.0 Summoning rules and cross your fingers we’ll get something as viable and interesting as that come 9ed or CA18.
mrhappyface wrote: Still, on paper at least, he looks like he should be able to take on an entire army. I'm going to try him out tomorrow in a 2500pts game against 5 Imperial Knights (some regular knights, some FW), so I'll see how he holds up there. I might also try him out against a horde army and see how he does there.
Take pics! Really excited to hear how these battles go.
Glitcha wrote: Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.
The biggest issue with Summoning is its basically reserve points that you aren't guarenteed to successfully use... on top of it, you can't move before summoning. Plus the game is still extremely alpha-strike heavy, especially with Knights being so prevalent. I dunno, I just can't stomach the uncertainty; I can see it being useful to bring back a character like Epidemus, but after you die I believe the tally resets, so... dunno. Might be nifty to bring in a unit of Brimstones to hold an objective last second.
In my recent game. from the example in my post above. I used the points to summon back 5 of my 10 flesh hounds that had got killed in the first turn. Which yes I was not able to move, but the character summoning was a hearld on Juggernaut that was already in CC. I don't think you would ever summon with the big guys that you want to keep moving on the table. It would be more for a utility character that is supporting your army. Get them some place on the table where they can camp for a turn and then summon whatever unit you are waiting. The nice thing is you don't have to declare what unit. Just that you are going to summon and the number of d6's you plan to use. (1-3)
It provides some flexibility, but if your talking from a competitive standpoint it has a few problems:
1) The units aren't a part of your army, so you lose out on CP/Detachment bonuses
2) Larger games means more guns, meaning gimping yourself early isn't necessarily good
3) Summoning some utility or troops can have use, but it can still be luck related
I can see it working in lower point levels, I just have problems buying it higher up. I'd probably give it a try if I could summon in units from my army from reserve, as opposed to spending CP, but... meh.
BoomWolf wrote:Huh. no exalted flamers on the list?
I'd expect to see them getting SOME love. they got serious firepower, and are easily hidden.
Can't really fit one in without sacrificing something.
Xenomancers wrote:I find it od no one takes the LOC. LOC is an absolute beast in my games. With impossible robe and -1 damage. He never dies...and he is a super beast in CC. High probability of mega smite with long AF range. Mad mobility. At 330 hes not cheap but a good centerpiece that doesn't autodie turn 1.
Problem is his damage output: he doesn't have the melee capability to take on other big things and his psychic powers available to him are awful. Besides that, he's a bit expensive for a very survivable distraction.
LoC vs Knight does around 2 from smite + 1d6 wounds after all failed hits and wounds. So 5 wounds to Knight. It is not bad but not the best.
We can take DP of Khorne with axe artifact and do more for 180pts.
Well - He is likely going to be buffed to the 9th degree though. Increasing strength is not hard. A herald for +1 Boon for another possible and your weapon in +1 too.
So really he is going to be 8 strength at least. Maybe 9. At which point hes wrecking a knight. Between mortals and CC damage and tanking his hits with a 3++.
Also - I don't think you are factoring the +2 to cast and possibly +3 to cast or +4 to cast smite. I could just be having incredible luck - but I get a d6 smite almost every time with LOC with gaze + a reroll - it is a really high chance.
Yeah magnus does this even better BUT - Magnus is not a 3++ base and just get's blasted off the table for 50+ points. He's also not an HQ ether - LOW really hurts him. I think they can work really well together though like you were suggesting.
This debate is why I'm thinking of taking Morty, Magnus, and a LoC as the competitive base of a list. All three are must kill threats along with say a bloodletter bomb and Skullreaver prince. Sprinkle in some nurglings and I think you could break even knight lists easily.
So I took big bird, some Bloodletter bombs and some renegades today in a game against: 1 Knight Lancer, 3 Knight Crusaders and a Knight Galaxy. It was no contest at all; big bird single handedly took down 3 of the Knights and took down the other 2 with the help of the Khorne detachment.
I'm going to try and scale it down to just Big Bird and some renegades for a 2000pt game and see how he does in that.
big bird 30 horrors 2 cheap qg and 10+10 brimstone, so you have also troops for objectives some extra pysonic and some shoot. if you prefer use bloodletters instead pink horrors
mrhappyface wrote: So I took big bird, some Bloodletter bombs and some renegades today in a game against: 1 Knight Lancer, 3 Knight Crusaders and a Knight Galaxy. It was no contest at all; big bird single handedly took down 3 of the Knights and took down the other 2 with the help of the Khorne detachment.
I'm going to try and scale it down to just Big Bird and some renegades for a 2000pt game and see how he does in that.
I've been on the fence about getting him, just because the model is sweet. Glad to hear he could do some serious work.
The skullreaver DP actually kills a knight on average rolls straight up(if he's warlord). He can fight twice BTW, so theoretically, he can kill 2 knights on the same turn.
7 attacks on charge = 6 wounds (2+ rerollable, 3+ rerollable, no knight save) * 3.5 + 1.2 * 2 + claw attack
rvd1ofakind wrote: The skullreaver DP actually kills a knight on average rolls straight up(if he's warlord). He can fight twice BTW, so theoretically, he can kill 2 knights on the same turn.
7 attacks on charge = 6 wounds (2+ rerollable, 3+ rerollable, no knight save) * 3.5 + 1.2 * 2 + claw attack
My biggest issue with them is how squishy they are. A knights overwatch can easily kill the Demon prince on decent rolls; especially relying on a 4++ (with strat). You have to either get something else to charge and connect first, or cross your fingers.
Can i bring 3x 1000 Sons DP AND DP of Chaos? Does it count by rule of three or they are not affected by rule of three because of different name (so 1k Sons DP can't use pistol from index) ?
rvd1ofakind wrote: The skullreaver DP actually kills a knight on average rolls straight up(if he's warlord). He can fight twice BTW, so theoretically, he can kill 2 knights on the same turn.
7 attacks on charge = 6 wounds (2+ rerollable, 3+ rerollable, no knight save) * 3.5 + 1.2 * 2 + claw attack
My biggest issue with them is how squishy they are. A knights overwatch can easily kill the Demon prince on decent rolls; especially relying on a 4++ (with strat). You have to either get something else to charge and connect first, or cross your fingers.
Well yeah, you either charge something else first or you charge a gallant who can't overwatch. Still you really have to have a good melee unit to screen around the DP
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Can i bring 3x 1000 Sons DP AND DP of Chaos? Does it count by rule of three or they are not affected by rule of three because of different name (so 1k Sons DP can't use pistol from index) ?
It’s a technically legal RAW interpretation that (1) you may well find TO’s taking exception to, and (2) May go the way of Warptimed T1 Termicide with the next FAQ.
Potentially powerful, expensive to buy into, and not guaranteed to be allowed after Christmas. Bully for anyone who’s got them already
rvd1ofakind wrote: The skullreaver DP actually kills a knight on average rolls straight up(if he's warlord). He can fight twice BTW, so theoretically, he can kill 2 knights on the same turn.
7 attacks on charge = 6 wounds (2+ rerollable, 3+ rerollable, no knight save) * 3.5 + 1.2 * 2 + claw attack
My biggest issue with them is how squishy they are. A knights overwatch can easily kill the Demon prince on decent rolls; especially relying on a 4++ (with strat). You have to either get something else to charge and connect first, or cross your fingers.
Well yeah, you either charge something else first or you charge a gallant who can't overwatch. Still you really have to have a good melee unit to screen around the DP
you'd still be rather cost effective if you brought a small squad of bloodletters with banner and had them DS with large charge range to eat the overwatch, and you'd possibly have abalative wounds after the fight. Lastly, you coudl save the CP in games where it's not nessary or spend less by not paying for the strat banner.
Ive found Bloodletters to be hilariously effective on overwatch. I bring a max 30 with instrument and the banner stratagem so their charge out of deepstrike becomes 3d6+1. This allows them to all but ignore most flamers, and in one game allowed me to wipe out a 10 man squad of flamer rubric marines.
Another good option is footslogging flesh hounds. Theyre super fast and are not big threats on board aside from being able to DTW. 75 points nets you 5 bodies and 10 wounds , with relatively laege base sizes (for entangling lots of models!)
a whole bunch of bl can seriously damage an Ik with bit of luck they can remove it from table, they are maybe the best answer demons have against those big guys.
rvd1ofakind wrote: The skullreaver DP actually kills a knight on average rolls straight up(if he's warlord). He can fight twice BTW, so theoretically, he can kill 2 knights on the same turn.
7 attacks on charge = 6 wounds (2+ rerollable, 3+ rerollable, no knight save) * 3.5 + 1.2 * 2 + claw attack
My biggest issue with them is how squishy they are. A knights overwatch can easily kill the Demon prince on decent rolls; especially relying on a 4++ (with strat). You have to either get something else to charge and connect first, or cross your fingers.
Well yeah, you either charge something else first or you charge a gallant who can't overwatch. Still you really have to have a good melee unit to screen around the DP
Walking into an IK isn't really answer, they can still fall back and shoot the next turn (plus you cannot fight it unless it was declared as a charge target). Sending something else in first is a great answer, which is seems Bloodletters may be a good answer. I'm just waiting to see whats in store in the next FAQ before I plan a new list.
blackmage wrote: a whole bunch of bl can seriously damage an Ik with bit of luck they can remove it from table, they are maybe the best answer demons have against those big guys.
Well, a Skullreaver DP is actually a way better answer. It has the damage output to ruin a knight in one turn, while you need to get lucky to bring them down with letters.
blackmage wrote: Dp cant charge alone it's squishy, you risk a lot in overwatch against a castellan for example.
It probably won't die to overwatch, unless you're incredibly unlucky. It doesn't even need to survive past one charge. It will handedly bring down a Castellan in one assault, and by then it's already pulled more than it's weight. Heck, charge a regular ol' Dominus and you still get double to triple its cost in return.
Hmm. I’d expect one of the five attacks to fail to hit or wound. Let’s say there’s two MW from the Skullreaver. Let’s say the Talon inflicts a Wound as well (on average, less). So that’s four damage rolls, each inflicting D6 damage, got to roll 21 to take down a Questoris class, 25 to kill a Dominus. Even if all of the five attacks get through, and two roll 6’s to wound, and the claw gets through, that’s still having to roll an 18 on 5D6 to bring it down... that’s only just sneaking through with a reroll.
Don’t get me wrong, that’s still remarkable damage output, and easily enough to bump an axe prince up my project queue, but it’s an above average set of rolls that I’ll not be relying on to do the job alone. At the very least, if the knight’s death were essential, I’d be assigning 3CP or a unit of bloodletters.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Can i bring 3x 1000 Sons DP AND DP of Chaos? Does it count by rule of three or they are not affected by rule of three because of different name (so 1k Sons DP can't use pistol from index) ?
It’s a technically legal RAW interpretation that (1) you may well find TO’s taking exception to, and (2) May go the way of Warptimed T1 Termicide with the next FAQ.
Potentially powerful, expensive to buy into, and not guaranteed to be allowed after Christmas. Bully for anyone who’s got them already
I just primed my 4th DP, more because I love the model and wanted one for each of the 4 gods, but thanks for reminding me to finish them and attempt this cheese before the nerf.
Aaaaah Khorne DPs get a bonus attack all the time in addition to an extra when charges happen, I see it now. Yeah, that’s definitely moving up the project queue
Glitcha wrote: Has anyone got summoning to work for them? I've been experimenting with it as a way to replace models that have died but not putting all my points in it. Example, I played a 1000pts game and I had 105pts in summoning.
The biggest issue with Summoning is its basically reserve points that you aren't guarenteed to successfully use... on top of it, you can't move before summoning. Plus the game is still extremely alpha-strike heavy, especially with Knights being so prevalent. I dunno, I just can't stomach the uncertainty; I can see it being useful to bring back a character like Epidemus, but after you die I believe the tally resets, so... dunno. Might be nifty to bring in a unit of Brimstones to hold an objective last second.
In my recent game. from the example in my post above. I used the points to summon back 5 of my 10 flesh hounds that had got killed in the first turn. Which yes I was not able to move, but the character summoning was a hearld on Juggernaut that was already in CC. I don't think you would ever summon with the big guys that you want to keep moving on the table. It would be more for a utility character that is supporting your army. Get them some place on the table where they can camp for a turn and then summon whatever unit you are waiting. The nice thing is you don't have to declare what unit. Just that you are going to summon and the number of d6's you plan to use. (1-3)
It provides some flexibility, but if your talking from a competitive standpoint it has a few problems:
1) The units aren't a part of your army, so you lose out on CP/Detachment bonuses
2) Larger games means more guns, meaning gimping yourself early isn't necessarily good
3) Summoning some utility or troops can have use, but it can still be luck related
I can see it working in lower point levels, I just have problems buying it higher up. I'd probably give it a try if I could summon in units from my army from reserve, as opposed to spending CP, but... meh.
To your first point I would argue that when you are list building only putting partial points in summoning you can still get your CP's and detachment bonuses. Example, I'm only putting 10% of my total points in summoning. Mainly to meta-gate a first turn alpha strike. To your second point, we are mainly talking about enough summon points to bring back 1 full unit or 2 small units.
I've done another test game. Honestly summoning is turning into a late game or mid game clutch move. Which so far has been working. I got my DP into combat with a Deathguard marine squad. In my next turn, I chose to not move since the bulk of my opponent's army was in charge range and summoned a unit of blood letters to help support my DP as I started to push through the Deathguard line.
Who said your extra attack has to be talon? An extra attack can be made with any weapon, he just has two weapons to choose from.
*edit* My mistake, you DO need frenetic bloodlust. You can 100-0 an armiger with ease, but you need to fight twice to obliterate the big boys (on average at least. Its 16 wounds average, so it isnt hard to get lucky.)
vaklor4 wrote: Who said your extra attack has to be talon? An extra attack can be made with any weapon, he just has two weapons to choose from.
*edit* My mistake, you DO need frenetic bloodlust. You can 100-0 an armiger with ease, but you need to fight twice to obliterate the big boys (on average at least. Its 16 wounds average, so it isnt hard to get lucky.)
Is the 16 avg wounds factoring in the extra mortals on 6s to wound? Also if he's your warlord he gas 7 attacks with the axe on the charge w/ Legendary fighter.
To the overwatch arguement. Charge him over a building because you gave him wings. No LOS to the DP = no overwatch.
u have 5 basic attacks with skullreaver+1 for charge+1 for legendary fighter the last extra attack remain MUST be delivered with talon or no extra attacks at all
vaklor4 wrote: Who said your extra attack has to be talon? An extra attack can be made with any weapon, he just has two weapons to choose from.
*edit* My mistake, you DO need frenetic bloodlust. You can 100-0 an armiger with ease, but you need to fight twice to obliterate the big boys (on average at least. Its 16 wounds average, so it isnt hard to get lucky.)
Your Maths is a bit off there: the Skullreaver does around 20W to an Imperial Knight with 6 attacks and does around 24W with 7 attacks. My guess is you forgot that the Skullreaver lets you re-roll all to wound rolls against Titanic models.
blackmage wrote: korne Dp with skullreaver on charge get 6 axe swings and 1 talon swing, or 5 axe and 2 talons, you can choose. Total is always 7.
Are you required to use at least 1 attach for the talon? Couldn't you use all 7 attacks with skullreaver?
I'm pretty sure the wording on the Malefic Talon is, "Whenever the bearer attacks, he can make one additional attack with this weapon." (emphasis mine)
vaklor4 wrote: Who said your extra attack has to be talon? An extra attack can be made with any weapon, he just has two weapons to choose from.
*edit* My mistake, you DO need frenetic bloodlust. You can 100-0 an armiger with ease, but you need to fight twice to obliterate the big boys (on average at least. Its 16 wounds average, so it isnt hard to get lucky.)
Your Maths is a bit off there: the Skullreaver does around 20W to an Imperial Knight with 6 attacks and does around 24W with 7 attacks. My guess is you forgot that the Skullreaver lets you re-roll all to wound rolls against Titanic models.
Ah, my bad! Yeah I forgot. Either way, not a guarenteed KO, but very possible with lucky damage rolls.
vaklor4 wrote: Who said your extra attack has to be talon? An extra attack can be made with any weapon, he just has two weapons to choose from.
*edit* My mistake, you DO need frenetic bloodlust. You can 100-0 an armiger with ease, but you need to fight twice to obliterate the big boys (on average at least. Its 16 wounds average, so it isnt hard to get lucky.)
Your Maths is a bit off there: the Skullreaver does around 20W to an Imperial Knight with 6 attacks and does around 24W with 7 attacks. My guess is you forgot that the Skullreaver lets you re-roll all to wound rolls against Titanic models.
Ah, my bad! Yeah I forgot. Either way, not a guarenteed KO, but very possible with lucky damage rolls.
Malific talon has the wording "each time this model fights it can make one additional attack with this weapon." It also says if you have two you get three additional attacks instead.
I'd go with Skullmaster. I actually find the bigger base to be a larger hassle. Harder to hide behind things, and in general I prefer the stats and powers of the Jugger-Herald more.
weaver9 wrote: Bloodthrone appears to have higher toughness, wounds and a minor ability to recover wounds.
Any particular reason people suggest the skullmaster?
Because all that means jack diddly when you're hiding a character behind infantry, the skullmaster is faster by 2" (which is a lot), and the Skullmaster actually has a 4+ save, while you have to rely on the 5++ daemonic invuln for the throne.
weaver9 wrote: Bloodthrone appears to have higher toughness, wounds and a minor ability to recover wounds.
Any particular reason people suggest the skullmaster?
Because all that means jack diddly when you're hiding a character behind infantry, the skullmaster is faster by 2" (which is a lot), and the Skullmaster actually has a 4+ save, while you have to rely on the 5++ daemonic invuln for the throne.
On the other hand, the increased wounds and toughness means your opponent will be unlikely to be able to jump a unit/model so that they are closest to your Herald and insta-kill it.
weaver9 wrote: Bloodthrone appears to have higher toughness, wounds and a minor ability to recover wounds.
Any particular reason people suggest the skullmaster?
Because all that means jack diddly when you're hiding a character behind infantry, the skullmaster is faster by 2" (which is a lot), and the Skullmaster actually has a 4+ save, while you have to rely on the 5++ daemonic invuln for the throne.
On the other hand, the increased wounds and toughness means your opponent will be unlikely to be able to jump a unit/model so that they are closest to your Herald and insta-kill it.
In my past experiences with both units (I play a LOT of Khorne ) The Blood Throne's absolutely massive base make it far easier to get into contact with it in melee, while the skullmaster is far easier to snug into other units, or even just up against terrain. Also, trust me the Blood Throne still goes down like the berlin wall against any actual competent melee units. It's only got 7 wounds, 7 toughness and a 5++ invuln, which seems nice until you face off against something like a power fist Berzerker captain, who can handedly 100-0 a Bloodthrone, without even fighting twice.
Out of curiosity, does mixing alignment in a detachment ,khorne/nurgle, prevent to use of God specific relics , like Skullreaver? Are universal stratagems usuable with this mix? Am I basically just giving up Loci and God specific strategems?
Neither, mixing gods removes the loci, thats it. So it you mix korne and slaanesh in for example slaneesh units lose the charecter bubble allowing advance and charge. Some armies i dont think it matters, but slaanesh needs its own detachment. Those ladies are super fast with that bubble.
The Khorne one is pretty nice, but ive found very little use for it. In almost every situation ive found that just footslogging my bloodthirsters/skarbrand to be more effective, and all bloodletters/bloodcrushers can get a 3d6 charge for 1 CP.
Tzeentch one is even less useful, it's complicated, hard to keep track of, and just a pain to manage for such a small effect.
I play those two gods, so ill often find myself just mixing them into one detachment. Sometimes ill only want 2 bloodletter squads, so ill take a Brimstones MSU for bubblewrap.
Apologies if this has been discussed before; it's basically impossible to find older discussions in these massive threads.
Plague Drones - what's the skinny on these guys?
Ideal support units? (Scrivener? Poxbringer/Prince with Virulent Blessings/Miasma? Feculent Gnarlmaw?)
Unit sizes? (3/6/9?)
Seems like Icons/Instruments are a given.
I'm assuming it doesn't, but to double check, Horn of Nurgles Rot won't add Drones, because despite having the <Plaguebearer> keyword, they aren't actually plaguebearers?
I'm mainly looking at these guys as a frontline speedbump to protect shooty Emperors Children units (assuming a favourable FAQ towards power armour), or as a screen to cover aggressive T.Sons Priince useage. I figure a detachment of HQ/HQ/3x3Nurglings/X Drones should be reasonably resistant to any major FAQ adjustments, so it's a question of figuring out how many resources to invest towards durable objective grabbing frontline units vs the more glass cannon backline stuff.
If you were trying to leverage the Locii/Virulent Blessings/Scrivener, how many Drones would you want? Is it worth saccing a detachment for a Feculent Gnarlmaw to give them the ability to advance/fall back and charge?
I figure that since they rarely seem to make much of an appearance in competitive lists, the chances of any significant changes are probably fairly unlikely. Saying that, they seem to be incredibly similar in stats to Grotesques, which are seeing some competitive play these days.
Though, I also don't expect many major army changes in the FAQ either. Seems like they'd more likely leave that for Chapter Approved, beyond the most egregiously under/overcosted units.
Is it worth running a Gnarlmaw to give them the fall back/charge flexibility? Seems like you could string 9 of them out across up to 46" and still have them within range at the backside of the conga line,which would likely give you 3-5 making contact for combat purposes. Essentially just stringing the unit out and using the leading models as an 'appendage' if that makes any sense at all?
Ap0k wrote: I figure that since they rarely seem to make much of an appearance in competitive lists, the chances of any significant changes are probably fairly unlikely. Saying that, they seem to be incredibly similar in stats to Grotesques, which are seeing some competitive play these days.
Though, I also don't expect many major army changes in the FAQ either. Seems like they'd more likely leave that for Chapter Approved, beyond the most egregiously under/overcosted units.
Is it worth running a Gnarlmaw to give them the fall back/charge flexibility? Seems like you could string 9 of them out across up to 46" and still have them within range at the backside of the conga line,which would likely give you 3-5 making contact for combat purposes. Essentially just stringing the unit out and using the leading models as an 'appendage' if that makes any sense at all?
Wouldn't be so sure on that. A guy running a ton of plague drones won Heat 1 at Warhammer World recently and at Heat 2 a very similar plague drone heavy list was in the top handful. Considering that's where the Rules team live its likely they noticed.
Ap0k wrote: I figure that since they rarely seem to make much of an appearance in competitive lists, the chances of any significant changes are probably fairly unlikely. Saying that, they seem to be incredibly similar in stats to Grotesques, which are seeing some competitive play these days.
Though, I also don't expect many major army changes in the FAQ either. Seems like they'd more likely leave that for Chapter Approved, beyond the most egregiously under/overcosted units.
Is it worth running a Gnarlmaw to give them the fall back/charge flexibility? Seems like you could string 9 of them out across up to 46" and still have them within range at the backside of the conga line,which would likely give you 3-5 making contact for combat purposes. Essentially just stringing the unit out and using the leading models as an 'appendage' if that makes any sense at all?
Wouldn't be so sure on that. A guy running a ton of plague drones won Heat 1 at Warhammer World recently and at Heat 2 a very similar plague drone heavy list was in the top handful. Considering that's where the Rules team live its likely they noticed.
Meh, Ive been running it since CD dropped last year pretty much, GW didnt do anything about the DG using the tree so I doubt they would do much to be honest and PB's arent plague drones so Its doubtful they would nerf both, but there might be a change with some of the supports.
If anyones interested, heres the link for one of the games in question, the Warhammer TV guys were loving it (Super fast nurgle narrative army....)
I need a herald body to carry the Crimson Crown and follow around Skarbrand and/or my Lord of Skulls.
What is more popular/fitting: Skullmaster, or Bloodthrone?
Skullmaster all the way. The bloodthrone is alright, but the Skull master moves quicker and has more attacks than the blood throne. Might be a smaller bubble for the Crown effect but that is fine, it's still a 6" bubble.
I have a question for everyone. I have a tournament this weekend and have 140 pts to spend still in my list. I am debating between 20 pink horrors or 5 flamers of tzeentch. Assuming they are next to a changecaster which casts flickering flames which is better?
Both are pl 8 so only spend 1cp to deep strike.
Horrors will put out 60 str 4 shots hitting on 4's wounding meq on 3's.
Flamers will put out 5d6 auto hits and wound meq's on 2's. Also ap-1.
It seems flamers would be better, easier to get into position due to smaller size and more damage, but horrors definitely have more wounds to go through. So your thoughts?
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: I use the full 9 with Miasma, Virulent Blessing, Scrivener. But it's a full Nurgle CD army.
They wreck face on anything, an underpointed unit. I wouldn't count on them being FAQ immune.
i doubt they will be FAQ'ed they are strong but need lot of support to deal serious damage, i dont see any nerf/point increase coming.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: I have a question for everyone. I have a tournament this weekend and have 140 pts to spend still in my list. I am debating between 20 pink horrors or 5 flamers of tzeentch. Assuming they are next to a changecaster which casts flickering flames which is better?
Both are pl 8 so only spend 1cp to deep strike.
Horrors will put out 60 str 4 shots hitting on 4's wounding meq on 3's.
Flamers will put out 5d6 auto hits and wound meq's on 2's. Also ap-1.
It seems flamers would be better, easier to get into position due to smaller size and more damage, but horrors definitely have more wounds to go through. So your thoughts?
horrors not even a doubt, play 30, 90 shots, you can give them +1 inv and you get 30 3++ bodies which are troops
Plague drones are legit. I've ran a list with 21 of them. Was able to take down IK pretty well. I think I had 2 DP, a crapload of nurglings, some heralds, and a scrivener and 2 trees. Though next time I'll probably drop the second tree.
Drones get a ton of attacks, no AP, but 2-5 dmg pending on buffs is legit. Also the list has insane board control.
I am still up in the air on some parts of the list, but the jist of it goes
Supreme command tsons
Arhiman on disk
Deamon prince w/ wings
Deamon prince
Batallion of slaaneah
Deamon prince w/ wings
Deamon prince w/ winga
10 demonettes
10 demonettes
10 demonettes
Batallion of chaos undivided
Lord of change warlord w/ impossible robe and incoporial form
Deamon prince of khorne w/ skullreaver
Changecaster
20 bloodletters
3 nurglings
20 pink horrors
I am flexible with stuff, i can drop the loc and put another tzeentch dp in, or drop the 20 horrors, put 3 more nurglings in, and put the flamers in (i have 9 of them). My area meta is going to probably see a lot of knights this weekend and a lot of armies designed to kill knights. I have had great luck in the past with my slaanesh detachment thanks to the advance and charge rules.
Drop the LOC use another Dp (eventually but for me you dont need you have already 5 Dp's) and with points saved increase bloodletter and horrors numbers 28-30 of them, if you lost just 1 in your list you lost also the extra shots for horrors and +1 to hit for bloodletters, give the Ts prince wings.
Azuza001 wrote: Ok. But i dont have 30 pink horrors, 20 max on that one. I kinda figured on the loc, but i loved the idea of 2++ saves on it.
Don't get me wrong, the LoC with a 2++ is pretty hilarious, but the damage output and the ability to hide behind chaff that the prince has makes it far better for its points. It can deal roughly the same damage and avoid heavy fire altogether, for half the cost.
Blueguy203 wrote: I also have a list that i could use some feedback on. Trying for competitive play and thought about smite spam. Thank you in advance.
Supreme command tsons
Arhiman on disk
Death Hex, Doom Bolt, Temporal Manip.
Deamon prince w/ wings Tsons Relic (Helm of many eyes)
Diabolical Str, Warptime
Deamon prince w/ wings
Prescience, Weavers of Fate
Batallion Chaos Demons Tzeentch
LOC- Rod of Sorcery, Everstave Warlord, Born of Sorcery
Bolt of Change, , Gaze of fate, Infernal gateway
Fluxmaster - Staff of Change
Flickering Flames, Boon of change
Just my thoughts, but:
LoC seem a bit overcosted for how quickly they can die. They do get a nice bonus though, so not sure. Magnus might be better?
Pink horrors seem actually kind of bad for smite spam as they can only roll 1d6 to cast. Seems like taking heralds might be better. Though 4++ on a big blob is nice.
I have had good luck with loc with impossible robe and save strat. But i understand why people are saying drop him. How is this? Note : leaving spells out because they can change game to game.
Chaos undivided demons detachment-
Changecaster
Deamon prince of khorne w/ skullreaver, wings
27 bloodletters w/ icon and instrument
3 nurglings
3 nurglings
6 flamers
10 furries w/ mark of nurgle
Tsons supreme command detachment
Ahriman on disk
Deamon prince of tzeentch w/ helm of 3rd eye
Deamon prince of tzeentch w/ wings, warlord w/ aetherstride
Deamons of slaanesh
Deamon prince of slaanesh w/ wings
Deamon prince of slaanesh w/ wings
10 demonettes
10 demonettes
10 demonettes
5 seekers
This gives more bodies starting on the table to protect vs t1 shooting my deamon princes (after turn 1 i have little cares about protection)
Its why i liked the loc with the impossible robe, he was going to be the end the end have to target because he protects the princes idea. But this list still has a lot of power and more options going for it.
if you dont have the proper models i cant help you a lot, play 20 horrors and 20 bloodletters is bit risky for horrors can be ok btw, as i said 1 single model loss and i lost bonus, 38 shots instead 60 for a unit with ab 4+ is a huge loss, same for bloodetters hit at 3+ instead of 2+ makes a big difference between annhilate target or not and Bl arent made to last long they must hit as hard as they can. If ur intention is hit Ik's 20 bl aren't the right choice you will sure lost some from overwatch, average a crusader with 12 gatling+2d6 cannon+6 stubber shots would kill at least 2-3 bloodletters enough to lost ur +1 to hit, i dont count what a castellan can do.
Automatically Appended Next Post: aethrstride is not a decent trait, better +1 save or high magister, flamers are bit meh, furies as well. Seems likeur trying to build a competitve list with the model you own, cause 5 seekers has no sense, or you play a large blob or dont play them at all .When you face serious competiive lists you get in troubles with that list, imho.
Pink horrors seem actually kind of bad for smite spam as they can only roll 1d6 to cast. Seems like taking heralds might be better. Though 4++ on a big blob is nice.
you dont take pink horrors for smite but for the dakka they can deliver, 23+23+23 like in that list are "only" 207 shots re roling 1's to hit str 4 and one of units can have +1 to wound.
I have plenty of bloodletters, but only 20 pinks. I expect to lose the bonus after a turn its true unfortunately. The seekers and furies are there because 1. I have them and 2. I dont know what to spend the next 200 pts i have left on. I need something that can soak up fire inbetween my dp's and the enemy turn 1 if i don't get it which i never plan on getting. I am at 1759 pts with what i know i want (arhiman, 2 ts princes, 2 slaanesh princes, khorne prince, 30 demonettes, 20 horrors, nurglings, changecaster) but i just dont know where the other points should go.
Sure.
For chaos -
HQ :
7 different Deamon Princes (I just love the different models)
Changling
Changecaster
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
The Masque of Slaanesh (really considered putting this one in as warlord for a long time, so cheap but effective)
Lord of Change
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets
Skull Master
Skull Keeper
Karanak
Troops :
36 Bloodletters
20 Pink Horrors
30 Demonettes
4 Nurglings (looking to get more)
Elites :
9 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Fiend of Slaanesh (need more, but don't care for model so..)
Fast Attack :
10 Flesh hounds
5 Plauge Drones
10 Furies (Really Khorne based, bloodletters with wings)
2 Screamers (gifts of the bits box as it were)
5 Seekers
Heavy Support : None
For Thousand Sons -
Ahriman
Ahriman on Disk
Deamon Princes
Sorcerer in Term Armor
50 Rubrics
19 Tzaangors with blades
Tzaangor Shaman
Hellbrute X 3
5 Chaos Spawn
Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Las Cannon X2
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Heavy Bolter
Mutalith Vortex Beast X2
Defiler w/ Twin Laz and Scourge
Forgefiend w/ Autocannons
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils
I typically have used my chaos army as support for my Tsons, but recently I played a game vs a highly competitive Eldar list. Alitoc, 2 of the flyers with auto hitting str 12 guns, lots of rangers and dark reapers. I didn't expect to win, it was a 'hey, I want to try this list for such and such, can I practice on you?' . So I just grabbed what I haven't used in a while (my Deamons) and I took pretty much 3 squads of 10 demonettes, 3 squads of 10 bloodletters, a squad of 20 horrors, LOC, Bloodthirster with armor of scorn, some other random bits, and I decimated his list. I ignored the flyers went straight for his Fire Prisims / Dark Reapers / HQ's and had my enitre army engaged with his top of turn 2. Bottom of 2 he called it because I had him locked in combat everywhere and he simply couldn't do anything. This is why I am looking at these guys seriously now, I won't get into the local meta politics but I want to beat a few players soundly more than actually win the tournament all together and I know that list has a 80% chance of showing up this weekend.
ALSO : I have about 40$ to spend on getting something new and put together for this weekend, so I could get more pinks or something else if needed, I just don't know what to get at this point.
I actually didn't realise there was a seperate Daemons thread on here, I thought it was all conglomerated into the 'chaos' thread! Glad I saw this, now I can ask my daemons-detachment related questions to the right group of people
I suspect a lot of those people are the same people as there, but still...
Speaking of which - Screamers? What do people think of them, and how are you using them?
Screamers are pretty meh. T4 2W 4++ is pretty bad for the cost. However I've actually considered them for tying up models to make Magnus unshootable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: I'd have to agree, until they fix the issue with daemon prince power, you should just drop the LoC and bring more DPs.
It would be an issue with DPs if they were winning tournaments left and right. However right now chaos is a distant third compared to Imperium and Aeldarii. The issue isn't with DPs. The issue is with every other big monster. The ability to not get shot is insane! All greater daemons should drop to like 240 pts to be viable.
Finally the 2++ LoC... You're using the artifact and 2CP to do what exactly. He's not a powerhouse like Magnus. He hits like a wet noodle, his powers suck, mortal wounds destroy him and most importantly - your opponent can just shoot something else.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Screamers are pretty meh. T4 2W 4++ is pretty bad for the cost. However I've actually considered them for tying up models to make Magnus unshootable.
Well I'm currently considering between bloodcrushers and screamers, as I like the bloodcrushers models and I have a good conversion idea for screamers. Would you say either were of any use?
Unfortunately the case for most army lists are that nothing is very good for its points other than hundreds of horrors or cultists. Hordehammer is strong in 8th. But I dislike hordes and so am trying to make the best of a bad situation!
Plague drones are probably the better option, but unfortunately I ma not a big fan of the nurgle aesthetic of bloat, and I haven't found a decent mek/tek conversion for them that fits..
They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.
Azuza001 wrote: Sure.
For chaos -
HQ :
7 different Deamon Princes (I just love the different models)
Changling
Changecaster
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
The Masque of Slaanesh (really considered putting this one in as warlord for a long time, so cheap but effective)
Lord of Change
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets
Skull Master
Skull Keeper
Karanak
Troops :
36 Bloodletters
20 Pink Horrors
30 Demonettes
4 Nurglings (looking to get more)
Elites :
9 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Fiend of Slaanesh (need more, but don't care for model so..)
Fast Attack :
10 Flesh hounds
5 Plauge Drones
10 Furies (Really Khorne based, bloodletters with wings)
2 Screamers (gifts of the bits box as it were)
5 Seekers
Heavy Support : None
For Thousand Sons -
Ahriman
Ahriman on Disk
Deamon Princes
Sorcerer in Term Armor
50 Rubrics
19 Tzaangors with blades
Tzaangor Shaman
Hellbrute X 3
5 Chaos Spawn
Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Las Cannon X2
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Heavy Bolter
Mutalith Vortex Beast X2
Defiler w/ Twin Laz and Scourge
Forgefiend w/ Autocannons
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils
I typically have used my chaos army as support for my Tsons, but recently I played a game vs a highly competitive Eldar list. Alitoc, 2 of the flyers with auto hitting str 12 guns, lots of rangers and dark reapers. I didn't expect to win, it was a 'hey, I want to try this list for such and such, can I practice on you?' . So I just grabbed what I haven't used in a while (my Deamons) and I took pretty much 3 squads of 10 demonettes, 3 squads of 10 bloodletters, a squad of 20 horrors, LOC, Bloodthirster with armor of scorn, some other random bits, and I decimated his list. I ignored the flyers went straight for his Fire Prisims / Dark Reapers / HQ's and had my enitre army engaged with his top of turn 2. Bottom of 2 he called it because I had him locked in combat everywhere and he simply couldn't do anything. This is why I am looking at these guys seriously now, I won't get into the local meta politics but I want to beat a few players soundly more than actually win the tournament all together and I know that list has a 80% chance of showing up this weekend.
ALSO : I have about 40$ to spend on getting something new and put together for this weekend, so I could get more pinks or something else if needed, I just don't know what to get at this point.
maybe you might consider play 3 hellbrutes instead furies+flamers+seekers, keep them cheap (missile+autocannon), but of course you must change a bit ur list to fit them, you need a vanguard, i dont see lot more you can add, or expand your Ts supreme command with 1 shaman and put ur termy sorcerer on screamer and make it an exalted on disk, you habe then plenty of psyonic, ahriman 2 ts Dp's shaman and exalted you can eat throug elite armies and veichles/Ik's
rvd1ofakind wrote: They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.
So are there any units worth taking, other than daemon princes (great) or horrors (yaawwwnnnnn)
rvd1ofakind wrote: They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.
So are there any units worth taking, other than daemon princes (great) or horrors (yaawwwnnnnn)
DPs,
Pink Horro bombs,
Brimstone hordes,
Bloodletter bombs,
Daemonette bombs,
Plaguebearer bombs,
LoC with robes,
Skarbrand,
Big Z,
Big Bird,
etc.
Sure.
For chaos -
HQ :
7 different Deamon Princes (I just love the different models)
Changling
Changecaster
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed
The Masque of Slaanesh (really considered putting this one in as warlord for a long time, so cheap but effective)
Lord of Change
Bloodthirster
Keeper of Secrets
Skull Master
Skull Keeper
Karanak
Troops :
36 Bloodletters
20 Pink Horrors
30 Demonettes
4 Nurglings (looking to get more)
Elites :
9 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Fiend of Slaanesh (need more, but don't care for model so..)
Fast Attack :
10 Flesh hounds
5 Plauge Drones
10 Furies (Really Khorne based, bloodletters with wings)
2 Screamers (gifts of the bits box as it were)
5 Seekers
Heavy Support : None
For Thousand Sons -
Ahriman
Ahriman on Disk
Deamon Princes
Sorcerer in Term Armor
50 Rubrics
19 Tzaangors with blades
Tzaangor Shaman
Hellbrute X 3
5 Chaos Spawn
Chaos Land Raider
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Las Cannon X2
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon
Chaos Predator w/ Autocannon & Heavy Bolter
Mutalith Vortex Beast X2
Defiler w/ Twin Laz and Scourge
Forgefiend w/ Autocannons
Maulerfiend w/ Tendrils
I typically have used my chaos army as support for my Tsons, but recently I played a game vs a highly competitive Eldar list. Alitoc, 2 of the flyers with auto hitting str 12 guns, lots of rangers and dark reapers. I didn't expect to win, it was a 'hey, I want to try this list for such and such, can I practice on you?' . So I just grabbed what I haven't used in a while (my Deamons) and I took pretty much 3 squads of 10 demonettes, 3 squads of 10 bloodletters, a squad of 20 horrors, LOC, Bloodthirster with armor of scorn, some other random bits, and I decimated his list. I ignored the flyers went straight for his Fire Prisims / Dark Reapers / HQ's and had my enitre army engaged with his top of turn 2. Bottom of 2 he called it because I had him locked in combat everywhere and he simply couldn't do anything. This is why I am looking at these guys seriously now, I won't get into the local meta politics but I want to beat a few players soundly more than actually win the tournament all together and I know that list has a 80% chance of showing up this weekend.
ALSO : I have about 40$ to spend on getting something new and put together for this weekend, so I could get more pinks or something else if needed, I just don't know what to get at this point.
Spend a command point to give the Khorne DP the Skullreaver and spend 7CP to throw the Bloodletter Bomb, the Horror bomb, Tz/Kh Heralds and the Kh DP into DeepStrike.
rvd1ofakind wrote: They're both pretty bad. Screamers can fly arround line of sight blocking terrain, Crushers can 3d6 charge (but why not bloodletters at that point) - so I'd say screamers are better since they can actually fill a niche.
So are there any units worth taking, other than daemon princes (great) or horrors (yaawwwnnnnn)
DPs,
Pink Horro bombs,
Brimstone hordes,
Bloodletter bombs,
Daemonette bombs,
Plaguebearer bombs,
LoC with robes,
Skarbrand,
Big Z,
Big Bird,
etc.
So a chunk of those are just variations on the theme of 'boring horde of chaff units' that I put horrors and cultists into. Probably the most competitive options, but also the most boring and unimaginative imo.
Princes, of course, are great, and I've already converted one and have ideas for my second. Everyone loves princes.
The others seem to all be greater daemons? Interesting, didn't think they were thought of that highly. I'll take a look.
However it seems that there are no good elites, fast attack or heavy support options in the entire codex. That seems... pretty terrible?
mrhappyface wrote: The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.
That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?
I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.
Just seems really odd, thats all.
However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units
mrhappyface wrote: The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.
That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?
I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.
Just seems really odd, thats all.
However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units
Every army might not have troops pulling the weight, but they do all have that one unit that stands above the rest. Some are elite, heavy, fast, HQ, or even troops. Our book just has no wargear and little to no customization for units. So it's exceptionally easy to say bloodletter are better than crushers, because crushers can't have extra upgrades. It's like if terminators had the exact same loadout as tactical marines. Nurgle is written well, as each unit has a good role (except beasts, lol) khorne and slaanesh, everything is pretty hard outclassed by infantry or daemon princes, as they don't have as defining roles outside of "MURDER IN CLOSE COMBAT". I do think I'll be trying multigod detachments and just wave goodbye to the locus for my khorne and nurgle. The nurgle locus is nice, but if bloodletters are nearby, nurgle stuff wont be needed in CC.
mrhappyface wrote: The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.
That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?
I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.
Just seems really odd, thats all.
However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units
Daemons, Orks, Nids, GSC, etc. all have the same problem - they're swarm armies in an edition where hordes are top tier. As I said, the other units in each army aren't bad, you could certainly run an army with elites/FA/HS from each faction but those armies will never be as good as just taking the troops.
Anybody having any luck with a Bloodthirster at all? I feel like maybe taking one with the Armor of Scorn would work as long as it's not the only big threat, but I'm just having a hard time justifying 340 points for it. It's a shame, as I've got a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage sitting on my shelf that I had loads of fun painting, and he hasn't hit a table yet in 8th edition.
mrhappyface wrote: The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.
That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?
I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.
Just seems really odd, thats all.
However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units
Well daemons have always been a horde army primarily. As far as strength goes:
Not everything in Tier 5 is terrible. Just that stuff in Tiers 1-3 does the same thing except better. Bloodletters crap on every other melee unit we have. Plaguebearers do the same for durability. Horrors do the same for anti horde shooting, etc
I have always felt (and this edition is no different) that deamons are ment to work with chaos marines, not as a separate faction. Combine the two and you got a very interesting group of choices to pull from. Seperatly there are units that only make sense in a vacuum of their own codex. Prime examples here are soul grinders and skull cannons. Only reason they need to exsist is in a deamon only force.
As for elites vs heavy vs fast attack, yeah the deamon codex has a problem there. Everything in the codex is cc, how many different variations of punch it hard, punch it fast, punch it resiliently, or punch it with magic can you have?
mrhappyface wrote: The elites/FA/HS aren't bad, the regular troops are just way better at doing basically the same thing.
That would imply that the codex is terribly written, wouldn't it?
I mean I know GW have a reputation for 'terrible rules writing', but I don't think the other armies would be able to say that their basic troops are better at everything than their elites/FA/HS options.
Just seems really odd, thats all.
However, as I dislike painting and playing horde armies, I'll just have to make do with bad units
Well daemons have always been a horde army primarily. As far as strength goes:
Not everything in Tier 5 is terrible. Just that stuff in Tiers 1-3 does the same thing except better. Bloodletters crap on every other melee unit we have. Plaguebearers do the same for durability. Horrors do the same for anti horde shooting, etc
So would there be any point in a list with both Plague Drones and Screamers? Do they fill the same niche?
Would there be any reason to take screamers over drones?
The mathhammer seems to show drones coming out slightly ahead on all types of enemies, despite the screamers having stronger attacks. Seems more attacks is better. And the Drones are way way tougher to kill.
Screamers are tiny so you can hide them from line of sight. They are also faster. You don't use them for damage, you use them to pick off chaff from far away objectives or to help surround things in combat.
Not everything in Tier 5 is terrible. Just that stuff in Tiers 1-3 does the same thing except better. Bloodletters crap on every other melee unit we have. Plaguebearers do the same for durability. Horrors do the same for anti horde shooting, etc
I think Nurglings deserve a mention as a utility unit, even if only for their infiltrate ability. They're crap offensively but can sometimes soak up a surprising amount of firepower.
ZergSmasher wrote: Anybody having any luck with a Bloodthirster at all? I feel like maybe taking one with the Armor of Scorn would work as long as it's not the only big threat, but I'm just having a hard time justifying 340 points for it. It's a shame, as I've got a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage sitting on my shelf that I had loads of fun painting, and he hasn't hit a table yet in 8th edition.
In my experience, I either bring Skarbrand instead, or just treat it as an anti-tank model. Its 10 morale share is pretty useless most of the time, but its raw melee stats are absolutely worth it. It's also a really decent fire magnet, able to get to 3++ invuln save quite easily with the relic + stratagem. Run him up the board instead of deepstriking to preserve CP (you are already spending 2-4 just to protect him) and watch him mulch just about any tank in the game in one turn, and soak up ridiculous amounts of damage for the rest of your army.
Is the GUO/Roticus viable in a 2k tournament or are those 325+pts Better off spent on something else? I have a friendly-tournament in 3 weeks but "most" of the people playing are practicing for ETC 2019.
There is ONE list that did well with them. Still not undefeated btw. The list was:
Bilepipiper
2 GUO Rotigus
Mortarion
Herald
rest nurglings (that's a lot of nurlgings)
Other than this big monster spam list - GUO sucks real bad.
rvd1ofakind wrote: There is ONE list that did well with them. Still not undefeated btw. The list was:
Bilepipiper
2 GUO Rotigus
Mortarion
Herald
rest nurglings (that's a lot of nurlgings)
Other than this big monster spam list - GUO sucks real bad.
Still salty that the GUO (and Morty for that matter) arnt T8. Would solve a large amount of problems.
rvd1ofakind wrote: There is ONE list that did well with them. Still not undefeated btw. The list was:
Bilepipiper
2 GUO Rotigus
Mortarion
Herald
rest nurglings (that's a lot of nurlgings)
Other than this big monster spam list - GUO sucks real bad.
Still salty that the GUO (and Morty for that matter) arnt T8. Would solve a large amount of problems.
I'm just salty that things like Knights, Wraithknights, big Tau battlesuits, etc. have always been classed as Titanic but these massive Daemons aren't counted as titanic. The codex creep washed over 40k and missed Chaos completely.
In my opinion, titanic would just make them weaker. There is plenty of stuff that targets titanic keyworded units, and only 2 of the 4 would even really benefit from having it.
Figured I'd start with the Tzeentch DP and Exalted Flamers as a mobile castle, the Plaguebearers with the Nurgle DP with miasma can cover them. Everything else deep strikes in, Bloodletter bomb with the Horrors/Fluxmaster to clear any screens, Khorne DP and Nurgle DP can go for the enemies tougher targets. Nurglings in there to stop enemy deep strikers and take objectives. Lots of command points spent on deep striking units but I'll still have enough for x2 Warp Surge. Any criticism welcome as I've not made a Daemon list since 5th edition!
Renegade Knight [25 PL, 469pts]: Heavy stubber, Thermal cannon
. Rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon
Renegade Knight [25 PL, 489pts]: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
Renegade Knight [25 PL, 489pts]: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
++ Total: [105 PL, 1999pts] ++
Pbears as annoying tarpit with -2 to hit and doing double dmg +1 on wound rolls of 6. 2 Knights with A. Cannons will produce produce 48 shots as well as backfield defence. Knight with Battle Cannon and lance will slog up the board with the Pbears as anti tank. Using Stratagem to grant re-roll failed hits.
in a double demon battalion army list, with a Ts supreme command, worth play 60 Pb or swap 30 for some bloodletters? i play also 30 horrors and 9 nurgle drones.thx
HQ -
Ahriman on Disk of Tzeentch - Warlord, Diabolic Strength, Death Hex, Infernal Gaze
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - Dark Matter Crystal, Gaze of Fate, Warptime, Talons
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - Wings, Glamor of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates, Talons
Played vs an experienced player with his Knights / Imperial Guard list. He had 5 of the smaller knights 3 of the CC ones and 2 of the shooty ones, one of the Big guys with a 4++ save artifact, 2 Basilisks, 30 Guardsmen, and was running the Guard CP regen warlord. He also had 2 of those damn assassins that blocked psycic powers and only get hit on 6's and one of those ones that deploy super close to you. He deep struck the super close one and one of the psycic guys. Deployment was Dawn of War. Mission was Supply Drop, 5 objectives w/ 2 in each deployment and 1 in the center. Each objective was worth VP = to the turn number, scored at end of each players turn. He got first turn. I deep struck the Bloodletters in the standard bloodletter bomb setup.
He moved stuff around a bit but pretty much kept back and did not press forward much except with his close combat knights and the assassin. He fired upon me but when the smoke cleared all he had done is killed the rubrics, the nurglings, and a few demonettes. 5++ is so nice on our basic guys! He scored 3 VP.
I rushed everything forward, keeping my pink's on one of my base objectives, keeping Ahriman on the other objective, then focusing on the center objective with my Tzaangors, 2 Tzeentch DP's, 2 Khorne DP's. The entire Slaanesh batallion moved up the side of the board towards his guard and basilisks. I charged the Tzaangors at his assassin and both Khorne DP's at one knight, the other cc knights were on the other side of a hill and out of range. It was a bit of a mistake. The Tzaangors surrounded his assassin and did 4 wounds to him (may only hit on 6's but he is a chr and tzaangors love to chomp on chrs). The DP with the axe swung and ended up doing a grand total of 28 Wounds to the knight once everything was said and done! Total over kill. This gave me the center objective, scoring 3 VP myself and first blood.
Turn 2 he came forward with his other 2 knights and his big knight. He fired everything on my forces and killed 1 the axe DP and dropped the other to 2 wounds (they ended up too far up and as I said, mistake) and killed 10 deamonettes. He then charged in to my Pink Horrors and 2 Tzeentch deamon princes with the 2 CC knights and charged the big knight in to the Khorne DP. He swung and killed my Khorne DP first, I inturrupted and had one of my Tzeentch DP's do 8 wounds to one of his CC knights, he killed the other Tzeentch DP with his knights and that was it. I still had troops on the center objective so he scored 4 VP.
My Turn 2 I dropped the Bloodletter bomb in as close to his big knight as I could. My slaanesh forces got within 2" of one of his objectives that had all the guard on it, rest of my force was where it needed to be. Psycic phase was a joke, damn -2 to cast within 18" but I did manage to kill the weakened cc knight with a smite. CC I charged the bloodletters into his big knight. I then charged all my slaanesh forces (the Masque, DP of Slaanesh, and like 18 demonettes) into the center of his guard. It was a blood bath. My DP of Tzeentch dropped his other cc knight to 2 wounds, the slaanesh forces ripped his guardsmen apart, my bloodletters charged in and did half the needed damage to kill the knight to it in CC, my Tzaangors finished off his assassin, and then I popped the strat to fight again and had the bloodletters attack again, managing to kill that damn knight! I rolled really well, he didnt do as well. That freed up my entire center force, giving me 8 VP. At this point we were out of time so had to call it, but I am very confident I would have won. He could have killed a LOT of my stuff still with all his ranged weapons but he wasn't going to be grabbing my objectives or the center one anytime soon and I was just going to roll on ahead of him in VP's.
Game 2
Spoiler:
Played a good player and his dark angels list. His major issue was he had NEVER played a daemons army before and was tooled up for knights / LOW's. He had Azreal, 10 hellblasters, the big primaris drednaught with assault cannons, 3 5-man squads of the basic primaris marine (the troops ones), a 10-man tactical squad which he combat squaded, a razorback w/ twin las, a predator w/ twin las and a pred autocannon, some annoying flyer, an apothecary, a banner guy, and a lieutenant. His entire idea was to have that squad of hellblasters being 4++ just deal weapons of the dark ages and overcharge at knights, blowing themselves up then firing again then use the apothecary to get back up. Totally useless vs daemon hordes.
Mission was a 'burn your opponents objectives' mission. 3 obj's in each deployment, deployment was dawn of war. each one you held was worth the turn number in VP, if you took an opponents objective in your movement phase at the end you could burn it for 1D3 VP instantly. He got 1st turn. I deep struck my bloodletters again with the banner.
Right away I could tell he was flustered. He wasn't sure what to do. So he decided to try to control the flow of the game and moved his force forwards! I even questioned him when he started doing it. He moved his flyer across the table behind my forces, moved the rest of his guys up 6", then started shooting. He unloaded everything on my basic guys, killing 5 pink horrors, both rubric squads (see a pattern with these guys?), and killing a few demonettes from 2 different squads, nothing of importance died. Then he forgot to fire his flyer! (If it wasn't a tournament I would have reminded him, but there was money on the line and this is supposed to be the intermediate level tournament for our area, not the beginners one). He scored 3 VP.
I then moved my force forward very quickly. GOD do I love that slaanesh advance and charge! I did turn my slaanesh daemon prince around to go deal with his flyer. Everything else moved up, I advanced my remaining 5 pinks up and put the Khrone DP with the axe behind them. Then I popped my dark matter crystal and moved the Tzaangors infront of them, 9" away from one of his objectives and a 5 man squad of primarus. Psy phase I put 3 wounds on the aircraft with a smite, killed a few primarus, put some wounds on the razorback, that was about it. I charged in dropping the 5 man squad to 2 guys (bad rolling), charging into the aircraft with my DP of slaanesh, then charged my daemonettes into his lines. I tied the predator up in CC dealing 2 wounds to it (got to love 6's at ap-4), tied up the marines and the center primarus in CC with daemonettes, and ran a dp of tzeentch with wings into the razorback killing it. Then my DP of slaanesh slaughtered his aircraft, but it exploded and put 3 wounds onto my DP. Still worth it lol. Score at the end my my turn, 3VP. So we were tied.
Turn 2 he didn't have many options. He pulled most of his forces back out of CC with me and fired everything he could at the closest small daemons, trying to get to my princes hiding behind them. But he failed, killing all but 1 deamonette that had attacked his predator with his hellblasters and other primarus shooting. His small squad of 2 guys tied up with my Tzaangors fell back and his big dread unloaded on my tzaangors, wiping them out. He had 2 of his objectives, the center one he had abandoned when he fell back. He scored 4 VP.
My turn 2 I went in strong. The DP with the Skullreaver moved forward again, getting within 4" of his dread and 6" of his last 2 primarus, everything else moved up ending up within easy charge range of his forces. My psycic phased killed off another 2 primarus but time was running low and I wanted to get my charges off. So I charged in, the Khorne DP declaring both primarus and the dread as targets. The Tzeentch DP and the other Khorne DP hit the predator, the slaanesh DP hit the small squad of primarus troops on the right flank, and the deamonettes with the masque and arhiman charged the remaining primarus and 3 tacticals that had just fallen back in the middle. The Khrone DP fighing the dreadnaught rolled bad but still did 13 wounds killing it. It exploded doing 2 wounds to my DP and killing one of the Primarus. My center force (Ahriman, Masque, deamonettes) killed the remaining primarus but failed to kill those last 3 tacticals (lucky bastards), and the Khrone DP vs the tank killed it without the help of the Tzeentch DP needed. The Slaanesh DP rolled bad but killed 2 of the squad of 5 Primarus. I then popped the Khorne fight again strat on my DP and swung and killed that last primarus. This gave me 5 objectives scoring 10 points. Game called at this point, we had a half hour but he had Azreal, 10 Hellblasters, the Apothecary and Banner guy and just a few more guys scattered around dying.
Final Score - 13 to 7 (not counting First Blood, Linebreaker, or Slay the Warlord)
Game 3
Spoiler:
This was against a very experienced Tau player. He was running Tau sept and some other sept that let him fire marker lights from orbit with a strat. Deployment was that weird 'Table Quarter with a 12'' circle in the middle of no mans land' and the mission was king of the hill. I actually won 1st turn but he rolled a 6 to seize. This probably more than anything helped him win the game. He had a drone port, 10 pathfinders, 30 firewarriors, a ghost keel, some stealth suits, a Stormsurge, 2 Broadsides, a Riptide, and a lot of shield drones floating around. The mission worked same as others, each turn the center was worth VP = to the turn number.
Turn 1 he unloaded on my guys, killing off about 60% of my cover guys. He dropped the pink horrors to 2 guys, killed 20 deamonettes, and 5 rubrics. He got first blood which was worth 3 VP!
I rushed forward taking the objective, but wasn't able to get into CC with him other than the Tzaangors who charged the stealth suits and killed some drones and 2 of them. Not good. I scored 1 VP.
Turn 2 he fired again, killing the rest of my flakk. He killed my axe DP of Khorne, killed the DP of slaanesh, and wounded the DP of tzeentch without wings. He got his stealth suits into range to claim the center objective for his turn. This gave him 5 Vp.
I rushed in with everything I had. I dropped the bloodletters in near the center then charged his crisis suits and stealth suits and drones with the DP of Tzeentch with wings, the Masque (who died to overwatch), Arhiman, and the bloodletters. My other DP of khorne hit his firewarrior line hard. I ended up killing 5 firewarriors with the DP and wiping that entire center group out taking back the center. Score was now 3Vp me to 5vp him.
BUT at this point it was hopeless. He backed his remaing fire warriors away from my DP of khorne, and then unloaded everything again. He tore through the bloodletters (even popping the +save strat wouldn't save them) and just wiped the floor with my stuff with his powerful long range firepower. I called it at this point because he had the lead in VP and I was about to get tabled.
I learned a lot about my force today.
1. Rubrics were a waste. they died each game and did nothing. More Pink Horrors would have been much better.
2. Deamonettes are still AMAZING in their own group. They hit hard and are stupid fast, I kind of want another 30 so I can run 3 groups of 20.
3. Bloodletters are also amazing, the bomb still works fine.
4. Deamon princes are very powerful but have to go up against the right targets. I really knew in my last game I needed to hit his firewarriors with my troops but they were all dead by that point so I couldn't do it. If I would have gotten 1st turn there it may have been a different story. As is I went last all 3 games and only lost 1 so eh....
5. CP wasn't as big an issue as I thought, each game I eneded with 5 or more still hanging out.
6. Tzaangors are also pretty damn cool in big groups. I cast glamor of Tzeentch and Weaver of Fates on them that last game when I charged them in and they held up really really well. Also Glamor of Tzeentch + Symphony of Pain (Good old slaanesh spell) can really surprise an opponent. What do you mean they are -2 to hit? Lol.
I think if I ran this list again I would drop the rubrics and take more Tzaangors. I also question the need for Arhiman, he didn't do bad per se but he never really did anything useful. I expected to dominate the psycic phase but really smites never got to the targets I needed them to. Those points would have been more useful just getting me more troops and swarming my opponent with 0 good options to shoot at. When all you have are t3 5++ targets to shoot at what good is a Las Cannon?
rvd1ofakind wrote: There is ONE list that did well with them. Still not undefeated btw. The list was:
Bilepipiper
2 GUO Rotigus
Mortarion
Herald
rest nurglings (that's a lot of nurlgings)
Other than this big monster spam list - GUO sucks real bad.
Still salty that the GUO (and Morty for that matter) arnt T8. Would solve a large amount of problems.
It really would. T8 is that break point where survivability increases exponentially.
That list looks pretty enjoyable though, and I'm confident I have enough nurglings to run it. Pretty sure I have 23 bases of nurglings, and I know I have everything else.
This weekend was the first time i ran nurglings. I really did enjoy them and want to run them again, getting more would be great. In a DP list they are amazingly fun for "cant hit me, there is a small group of nurglings playing dice over there, got to kill them first!"
So has anyone found literally any use for Bloodcrushers besides mandatory brigade slots? I've tried mathhammering them against bloodletters in pretty much every toughness/wounds/save ratio, and the Letters are always either comparable or better, and the Bloodletters have the benefit of being troops and being harder to kill.
Well they are calvary, not infantry, so if you surround a knight it can't walk out. But really they are pretty units, just not cost effective. Or Bloodletters are really cost effective. Take your pick. I know I took out a full health 600 pt knight this weekend with 26 bloodletters from full health to 0. Yeah, I had to use the strat to attack again, but it worked really REALLY well when Plan A. (Daemon Prince with Skulltaker) and Plan B (Daemon Prince with relic sword) failed to live long enough to get to their target.
I love how Bloodletters and Skullreaver DPs have become some of the most points efficient units against Knights. Finally Khorne daemons getting some recognition. Too bad Bloodthirsters are still awful. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I knew that it wouldn't just sit on my shelf 100% of the time.
barboggo wrote: I love how Bloodletters and Skullreaver DPs have become some of the most points efficient units against Knights. Finally Khorne daemons getting some recognition. Too bad Bloodthirsters are still awful. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I knew that it wouldn't just sit on my shelf 100% of the time.
I tend to use Bloodthirsters as a distraction more often than not. I'll take the one with the great axe and charge it up the board, and 99% of the time they'll ignore any backline artillery I have in favor of the giant point sink.
Crushers being CAVALRY able to envelope a Knight is probably not a net benefit when you factor in having to walk around every knee-high ruined wall and knock on the door before you trample a unit shooting out of windows
barboggo wrote: I love how Bloodletters and Skullreaver DPs have become some of the most points efficient units against Knights. Finally Khorne daemons getting some recognition. Too bad Bloodthirsters are still awful. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I knew that it wouldn't just sit on my shelf 100% of the time.
I really think they need to fix each of the GD's, they just... aren't worth it. Make the GUO T8 (cuz nurgle), give the LOC a ranged weapon (I mean... hes a damn wizard, shoot lightning from his staff or something), Dunno what they could do with the KoS (Maybe -1 to hit naturally? They're supposed to be super fast), and give the ol' BT maybe a rule to being able to ignore overwatch on the charge (I mean... hes frightening as hell) so that your encouraged to charge him outta the Warp. I feel like this would at least make each of these more playable...
vaklor4 wrote: So has anyone found literally any use for Bloodcrushers besides mandatory brigade slots? I've tried mathhammering them against bloodletters in pretty much every toughness/wounds/save ratio, and the Letters are always either comparable or better, and the Bloodletters have the benefit of being troops and being harder to kill.
One advantage of course, is that you can paint and play with 3 cool bloodcrusher models, instead of 20 samey bloodletter models. Not a competitive viewpoint (in which case, again, you should be playing 90 bloodletters and 120 cultists) but for us filthy casuals it's a pretty important point
barboggo wrote: I love how Bloodletters and Skullreaver DPs have become some of the most points efficient units against Knights. Finally Khorne daemons getting some recognition. Too bad Bloodthirsters are still awful. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I knew that it wouldn't just sit on my shelf 100% of the time.
I really think they need to fix each of the GD's, they just... aren't worth it. Make the GUO T8 (cuz nurgle), give the LOC a ranged weapon (I mean... hes a damn wizard, shoot lightning from his staff or something), Dunno what they could do with the KoS (Maybe -1 to hit naturally? They're supposed to be super fast), and give the ol' BT maybe a rule to being able to ignore overwatch on the charge (I mean... hes frightening as hell) so that your encouraged to charge him outta the Warp. I feel like this would at least make each of these more playable...
I'd like to see BT get a 3d6" charge range (as seen on the Brass Scorprion), and give all of them an attacks profile that increases while their strength decreases as they take wounds. It's very bezerker flavorful (skarbrand and KLoS already have this.)
Pretty big buffs, but I think that's what it would take for me to field them as they are currently costed.
barboggo wrote: I love how Bloodletters and Skullreaver DPs have become some of the most points efficient units against Knights. Finally Khorne daemons getting some recognition. Too bad Bloodthirsters are still awful. I would buy one in a heartbeat if I knew that it wouldn't just sit on my shelf 100% of the time.
If greater daemons had a ++4 or T8 base, I think we would see a lot more of them, and I would like that a lot.
Its a survival thing. If they are as big as a knight they should match up. Unfortunately they dont. Doesn't mean they are bad. One of my better lists that works in my local meta is loc and bloodthirster with armor of scorn. Bump both up to 3++ saves let the opponent choose which dies (they normally pick the bloodthirster lol). But it only works because i dont bring it often and no one expects it.
I have actually been thinking recently how bad all the Greater Daemons are, even after the Codex came out. Real miss. They need to either all be 30+ points cheaper, or increase their cost by 20-30 points each and make them T8 and/or 4++. This in between space is terrible...they are way too fragile and overpriced for their stats, especially given that they are all mostly melee based units.
Its an 8th edition problem really. Everyone always being able to just walk out of combat is huge. Even if they left all the stats the way they are a gd of khorne would have value if once in combat the enemy was stuck there. Then change it so only units with special rules (fly, ultramarines) can walk out of combat. It would at least make combat armies viable. Right now cc is good but doesnt hold a candle to shooting armies.
I'd personally do a price reduction. I hate having to refer to FAQs for datasheets, so i'd rather keep the physical codex actually up to date as far as datasheets.
lindsay40k wrote: One possible way forwards could be that when units fall back, the enemy gets to make ‘pursuit’ attacks that are like melee overwatch
That would also open up scope for weapons to have interesting effects. Like a lash could Pursue at full WS
Automatically Appended Next Post: But this is wishlisting, not tactica
I actually quite like this idea. Could even simplify and say that falling back will cause D3 mortal wounds if the unit you are falling back from has more models.
So my Skarbrand arrives in a few days. Any advice on running him?
Obvious synergy with bloodletter hordes + crimson crown on a skullmaster... but I'm not sold on bloodletters over bezerkers.
My plan right now is to deep strike him in, and saturate the board with bezerkers in rhinos, and possibly a super heavy like a Scorpion or KLoS. Generally a waste of points but fun to use.
Bloodletters ABSOLUTELY have an edge over Berzerkers in a few match ups.
They have ap -3 which basically laughs in the face of TEQs and heavy armored units, they can deepstrike (and for 1 more cp charge 3d6), and their 5++ invuln makes them suprisingly frustrating to remove from the board. Skarbrand running up (or even just deepstriking onto) units of bloodletters is a horrifying prospect. But berzerkers with skarbrand are just as much fun, allowing you to fight 5 times total with axe/chain sword zerks...Twice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I need help figuring out the last of my Daemons list. Im facing Necrons in a friendly 2k, and ive got 25 points left to spend.
I could add a few more bloodletters, add some blue horrors to my brim squads, upgrade my skullmaster to a bloodthrone, or leave 20 reserve points to split two of my pink horrors in my 30 blob to keep it above the 20 threshhold for that 3 assault profile.
I’ve heard it said several times that Plague Drones are undefcosted, but I don’t see why. I use mine mainly to provide mobile cover and eat Overwatch for my flying daemon princes, and they never seem to do much on their own.
Can someone explain why they’re better than the equivalent points in Plaguebearers? Each costs roughly the same as 5 Plaguebearers (34 vs 35 points) but the PBs with a Scrivener are almost as fast (7” vs 10”) and have as many melee attacks, at a higher strength with a herald, albeit only for 1 damage without buffs rather than 2. The drones have a 5 toughness vs plaguebearers’ 4, but a big blob of plaguebearers are -1 to hit, and drones are a lot more vulnerable to multiple damage attacks. Ignoring terrain and units from the Fly keyword is useful, but their bases are so large that they’re not going to bypass competently placed screens. What’s their big benefit?
Atlatl Jones wrote: I’ve heard it said several times that Plague Drones are undefcosted, but I don’t see why. I use mine mainly to provide mobile cover and eat Overwatch for my flying daemon princes, and they never seem to do much on their own.
Can someone explain why they’re better than the equivalent points in Plaguebearers? Each costs roughly the same as 5 Plaguebearers (34 vs 35 points) but the PBs with a Scrivener are almost as fast (7” vs 10”) and have as many melee attacks, at a higher strength with a herald, albeit only for 1 damage without buffs rather than 2. The drones have a 5 toughness vs plaguebearers’ 4, but a big blob of plaguebearers are -1 to hit, and drones are a lot more vulnerable to multiple damage attacks. Ignoring terrain and units from the Fly keyword is useful, but their bases are so large that they’re not going to bypass competently placed screens. What’s their big benefit?
Fly alone is huge.
T5 vs T4 is pretty significant.
7" vs 10" is not 'almost as fast' in any way. Drones are 50% faster. And can fly over obstacles and terrain and units.
Same strength if you're counting herald buffs for one you have to apply it to both, even if it's marginally easier to keep PBs in the aura.
So yeh, there's quite a lot.
I don't think drones are undercosted though, I think they're pretty much right as they are. They don't perform the same role as PB's really.
TBH the biggest weakness of PDs for me is the (1) lack of a drone poxbringer, and (2) the fact that it wouldn’t affect the fixed str attacks anyway, and (3) their low CP yield
I'm a little miffed that they nerfed my ability to get a 2++. It was good, but didn't strike me as overpowered within our codex. And cost CP plus was only good for a phase. Alas!
They are "safe" but also nerfed. Everyone got nerfed in this FAQ except Slaanesh again (which as a Slaanesh player I sadistically chuckle about but... you know, pleasure from pain!)
They're gonna need to lift us all up a bit in CA 2018 I think.
If you didn't notice... Fly, for the purposes of moving over units and terrain only works in the MOVEMENT phase now. So your giant flying Bloodthirster now has to walk when charging. Thus, units in the way of his enormous base now block his movement. Same with Tzeentch flyers, and all of our Daemon Princes.
This, again, emphasizes the fast movement for Slaanesh... our Keeper is smaller so can manuever better but it is still not a great unit.
Pinks will still be at an effective 3++, no worries there (5 improved to a 4, add one to save rolls).
I don’t know what to replace my LoC with now, any thoughts? Capped at a 3++ makes him less survivable, which is bad for my purposes.
I’m toying with a Plague Hulk and 2x3 Plague Drones, or two Hulks. While I lose the psychic prowess of the LoC, I think I actually GAIN survivability, as well as a bigger melee threat. Thoughts?
Or maybe some Blightlord Termies? I can rasily do a Nurgle Battalion since I already am running Nurglings.
No pinks are a flat 4++ at the moment. The strat will not put them to 3++. They dont have Ephemeral Form. It will work to turn blues to a 4++ though, for what that is worth....
So is it just me or does gw hardcore nerf daemons even harder Everytime and faq/can drops? I loved my daemons at start of 8th and now they are shelved marked as unplayable(other than nurgle)
DPs can't now interact with ruins outside the movement phase. They can't charge through walls, they can't charge up ruins, they can't charge through models. It is a HUGE nerf.
Yeah, DP's were Nerfed; still usable...ish. If anything this buffed armies that rely on lots of Chaff around a single huge model against anything that doesn't have a lot of guns to clear house.
Demons are in a rough spot right now. Top it off with a direct nerf to all Tzeentch demons because the LoC could get a 2++ (but still maybe kill one thing a turn if your lucky...)
Kneejerk doesn't begin to describe some of the stuff in this FAQ. They could have easily just changed the LoC robe relic to say "this unit cannot benefit from the Warp Surge strategem" to nerf his 2++, but allow Pinks to get the 3++ which makes them a good unit (now a 4++ is a lot worse...). It doesn't nerf any of the other 3 gods, except for Bloodthirsters with Armor of Scorn. Now I doubt we will ever see one at all
also sucks how the new turn 2 cover strategem is utterly useless to us. Would have been nice if it was just +1 to all saves to a max of 2+ 3++ during enemy turn 1
would be better give -1 to hit instead +1 to save so every model in the game can benefit (beside titanics), now you have guardsmen saving at 4+ (seems not a lot but when you have lot of models on the table that's huge) as if guard needed help, IG is already playing another game.
blackmage wrote: would be better give -1 to hit instead +1 to save so every model in the game can benefit (beside titanics), now you have guardsmen saving at 4+ (seems not a lot but when you have lot of models on the table that's huge) as if guard needed help, IG is already playing another game.
That'd be more beneficial to Daemons, but it also means that against certain armies (like Raven Guard or Alpha Legion for instance) you'd never want to take first turn because it'll just be wasted shooting at enemies with -2 to hit against them. That's a bit excessive.
it is not, think about Alaitoc it has already it. that -1 would let assault armies to pass that critical 1st turn, now Alpha legion and RG lost their infiltration rule so they aren't anymore so broken, +1 to save matter almost nothing unless you play lot of footslogging power armors or many veichles.
lindsay40k wrote: No more 3++? Well, there goes Zara, falling right out the floor of ‘maybe nearly viable in some friendlies’.
Is there *any* good news for the children of the Warp, here?
As far as I can see it's flat nerfs to every unit. Even DP's are now significantly less powerful, and they were one of the only consistently good units we had.
lindsay40k wrote: No more 3++? Well, there goes Zara, falling right out the floor of ‘maybe nearly viable in some friendlies’.
Is there *any* good news for the children of the Warp, here?
As far as I can see it's flat nerfs to every unit. Even DP's are now significantly less powerful, and they were one of the only consistently good units we had.
We did get one minuscule buff. We can now heroic intervene into melee if close enough and the opponent hasn't charged. But it's barely worth mentioning.
Mostly Nurgle/Nurgling-based armies still work though don't they? Especially since Nurglings get to keep their T1 infiltrate and deploy anywhere on the board outside 9".
Btw, mathhammer says a Greater Brass Scorpion with Daemonforge does 38 damage in one round of CC with a knight. Khorne seems very good at killing knights.
lindsay40k wrote: No more 3++? Well, there goes Zara, falling right out the floor of ‘maybe nearly viable in some friendlies’.
Is there *any* good news for the children of the Warp, here?
As far as I can see it's flat nerfs to every unit. Even DP's are now significantly less powerful, and they were one of the only consistently good units we had.
We did get one minuscule buff. We can now heroic intervene into melee if close enough and the opponent hasn't charged. But it's barely worth mentioning.
I was under the impression that we already could do that, and that GW just clarified it.
vaklor4 wrote: So has anyone found literally any use for Bloodcrushers besides mandatory brigade slots? I've tried mathhammering them against bloodletters in pretty much every toughness/wounds/save ratio, and the Letters are always either comparable or better, and the Bloodletters have the benefit of being troops and being harder to kill.
One advantage of course, is that you can paint and play with 3 cool bloodcrusher models, instead of 20 samey bloodletter models. Not a competitive viewpoint (in which case, again, you should be playing 90 bloodletters and 120 cultists) but for us filthy casuals it's a pretty important point
This hits me so hard. There is so much Khorne stuff that I'd buy if only I could imagine them seeing some time on the table.
So ok. Bloodcrushers are worse than Bloodletters. But... how much worse exactly? Surely I wouldn't be crippling myself too badly if I ran a unit of Bloodcrushers?
Bloodletters are more durable against every weapon in the game. They're twice as durable vs plasma and 5 times as durable against OC plasma and 7 times as durable against anti-tank.
They are also troops with obsec and give CP because of battalions.
You also get more models to cover more board space and surround people better. You also get smaller bases that can fit through gaps.
You also get a buff for having 20+ models in the unit.
You do 2x more damage against targets without big invul saves and you do just more damage in general against everything in the game.
Turns out GW sucks at balancing. Who knew. There is no reason why these units, that do basically the same thing, should be THIS far apart in terms of viability.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Bloodletters are more durable against every weapon in the game. They're twice as durable vs plasma and 5 times as durable against OC plasma and 7 times as durable against anti-tank.
They are also troops with obsec and give CP because of battalions.
You also get more models to cover more board space and surround people better. You also get smaller bases that can fit through gaps.
You also get a buff for having 20+ models in the unit.
You do 2x more damage against targets without big invul saves and you do just more damage in general against everything in the game.
Turns out GW sucks at balancing. Who knew. There is no reason why these units, that do basically the same thing, should be THIS far apart in terms of viability.
It's more than enough to push me towards scrapping the idea of taking any daemons at all. And if I'm not taking daemons, then it makes chaos a much less interesting option to build an army with in general.
Pretty much leaves just daemon princes (also heavily nerfed) and forgeworld dreadnoughts and a couple hundred cultists.
Might just bite the bullet and start an imperial army instead. Always tried to avoid it as we already have 4 out of 5 armies in our gaming group as imperial of one sort or another.
Such a disappointment that 8th hasn't managed to live up to the expectations of balance.
Oh imperial is not a good alternative. Unless you like looking at 11 codexes and thinking "which 2-3 units are the best" x 3 to make my army. Also IG is a must in every single list.
The truly great armies are Tyranids and Dark Eldar/Eldar.
Just won a doubles 30-40 team tourney with battalion of nurglings and 2 poxbringers and crusader teamed with spearhead of crawlers winged prince with talons and a helverin - 1600 points.
The nurglings stole so many vp and stayed alive way way to long it was awesome.
Renegade knight strat is also damn good, being able to use it in 2 phases in your turn can be clutch(it was).
Thanks for the deepstrike nerf GW!
Thanks for the cover save strategem GW!
Thanks for fixing the OP lord of change GW!
Thanks for the "only one attempt to cast a spell" GW!
Thanks for the fly nerf GW!
Thanks for the brimestone nerf GW!
Thanks for the changeling nerf GW!
And thank you very much for the unreliable mono tzeentch melee strategem
Best regards
Former tzeentch player and warhammer miniatures buyer
lindsay40k wrote: No more 3++? Well, there goes Zara, falling right out the floor of ‘maybe nearly viable in some friendlies’.
Is there *any* good news for the children of the Warp, here?
Not exactly competitive but just noticed Zara can still ignore terrain while charging so might catch a casual opponent with their pants down so to speak.
CupOfBuckets wrote: Thanks for the deepstrike nerf GW!
Thanks for the cover save strategem GW!
Thanks for fixing the OP lord of change GW!
Thanks for the "only one attempt to cast a spell" GW!
Thanks for the fly nerf GW!
Thanks for the brimestone nerf GW!
Thanks for the changeling nerf GW!
And thank you very much for the unreliable mono tzeentch melee strategem
Best regards
Former tzeentch player and warhammer miniatures buyer
Maybe all true but armies strengths come and go between editions. Through 5-7th Tzeentch was among the strongest gods to play and even at the beginning of 8th. Wait for the pendulum to swing back as it always does.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Bloodletters are more durable against every weapon in the game. They're twice as durable vs plasma and 5 times as durable against OC plasma and 7 times as durable against anti-tank.
They are also troops with obsec and give CP because of battalions.
You also get more models to cover more board space and surround people better. You also get smaller bases that can fit through gaps.
You also get a buff for having 20+ models in the unit.
You do 2x more damage against targets without big invul saves and you do just more damage in general against everything in the game.
Turns out GW sucks at balancing. Who knew. There is no reason why these units, that do basically the same thing, should be THIS far apart in terms of viability.
Wow that's quite a list. Thank you for this!
Hasn't stopped me from browsing eBay for bloodcrushers but you have definitely helped give me a better idea of what to expect when I field them in place of bloodletters.
Maybe all true but armies strengths come and go between editions. Through 5-7th Tzeentch was among the strongest gods to play and even at the beginning of 8th. Wait for the pendulum to swing back as it always does.
I definitely had a handful of fairly disgusting games when I got back into the hobby at the beginning of 8th and fielded those sweet, sweet 4++ brimstones. Even running just 40 of them was enough make my lists threateningly points efficient in casual games. Maybe now is the time to stock up on underpowered daemon models while they're in low demand? Some day bloodcrushers will have their time in the sun, like flyrants, and shining spears, and dark eldar.
CupOfBuckets wrote: Thanks for the deepstrike nerf GW!
Thanks for the cover save strategem GW!
Thanks for fixing the OP lord of change GW!
Thanks for the "only one attempt to cast a spell" GW!
Thanks for the fly nerf GW!
Thanks for the brimestone nerf GW!
Thanks for the changeling nerf GW!
And thank you very much for the unreliable mono tzeentch melee strategem
Best regards
Former tzeentch player and warhammer miniatures buyer
Maybe all true but armies strengths come and go between editions. Through 5-7th Tzeentch was among the strongest gods to play and even at the beginning of 8th. Wait for the pendulum to swing back as it always does.
Slaanesh would like to have a word with you about when it's time was/is coming. ;-)
A max unit of 12 bloodcrushers is 564 points holy crap. Yeah 60 bloodletters is better and cheaper but with a bloodmaster nearby 12 bloodcrushers does output 36 S8 attacks and 48 S7 attacks on the charge. It also reaches a 36 wounds of T4 4++ when you warp surge it. Fragile still, but that is a ridiculously large number of high strength attacks out of one unit there.
With Banner of Blood and Locus of Rage you have a 93% chance of making that 9" charge so it could definitely be a formidable threat on T2.
First, it's 589 since you have to take the banner and instrument.
For that you'd get 70 bloodletters.
So that's (with bloodmaster) 140 S6 AP3 vs 48 S7 AP3 + 36 S8 AP1
Bloodletters also hit on a 2+, bloodcrushers don't....
I don't think I need to ask which is better, haha.
rvd1ofakind wrote: First, it's 589 since you have to take the banner and instrument.
For that you'd get 70 bloodletters.
So that's (with bloodmaster) 140 S6 AP3 vs 48 S7 AP3 + 36 S8 AP1
Bloodletters also hit on a 2+, bloodcrushers don't....
I don't think I need to ask which is better, haha.
Math:
'letters vs Marines = 64 damage
'letters vs Guardsmen = 97 damage
'letters vs Custodes bike = 29 damage
'letters vs vehicle = 32 damage
'letters vs Knight = 32 damage
'crushers vs Marines = 28 damge
'crushers vs Guardsmen = 44 damage
'crushers vs Custodes bike = 16 damage
'crushers vs vehicle = 21 damage
'crushers vs Knight = 15 damage
So...yeah, the Bloodletters are better.
However, it's unlikely that you'll get to attack with ALL the Bloodletters, whereas it would be easier to get a larger percentage of the crushers engaged.
vaklor4 wrote: So has anyone found literally any use for Bloodcrushers besides mandatory brigade slots? I've tried mathhammering them against bloodletters in pretty much every toughness/wounds/save ratio, and the Letters are always either comparable or better, and the Bloodletters have the benefit of being troops and being harder to kill.
One advantage of course, is that you can paint and play with 3 cool bloodcrusher models, instead of 20 samey bloodletter models. Not a competitive viewpoint (in which case, again, you should be playing 90 bloodletters and 120 cultists) but for us filthy casuals it's a pretty important point
This hits me so hard. There is so much Khorne stuff that I'd buy if only I could imagine them seeing some time on the table.
So ok. Bloodcrushers are worse than Bloodletters. But... how much worse exactly? Surely I wouldn't be crippling myself too badly if I ran a unit of Bloodcrushers?
I DIDZ DA MAFFS
Without typing a spreadsheet on my phone, they can take SLIGHTLY more punishment than Bloodletters, but only like...1-2 more wounds
Offensively, Bloodletters always edge them out. Sometimes by 3-4 wounds, sometimes by huge margins like 10-12. It depends on the target, but its actually kind of a big gap in general. Unless your targets are mid-tier armor save and high toughness (Nids for example) then the mass attacks of Letters will always edge out Crushers.
Also bare in mind the diminishing returns. If you lose on Crusher, thats a large chunk of your offense gone. If you lose 3 Letters (the wounds equivelent), youre still laughing.
vaklor4 wrote: So has anyone found literally any use for Bloodcrushers besides mandatory brigade slots? I've tried mathhammering them against bloodletters in pretty much every toughness/wounds/save ratio, and the Letters are always either comparable or better, and the Bloodletters have the benefit of being troops and being harder to kill.
One advantage of course, is that you can paint and play with 3 cool bloodcrusher models, instead of 20 samey bloodletter models. Not a competitive viewpoint (in which case, again, you should be playing 90 bloodletters and 120 cultists) but for us filthy casuals it's a pretty important point
This hits me so hard. There is so much Khorne stuff that I'd buy if only I could imagine them seeing some time on the table.
So ok. Bloodcrushers are worse than Bloodletters. But... how much worse exactly? Surely I wouldn't be crippling myself too badly if I ran a unit of Bloodcrushers?
I DIDZ DA MAFFS
Without typing a spreadsheet on my phone, they can take SLIGHTLY more punishment than Bloodletters, but only like...1-2 more wounds
Offensively, Bloodletters always edge them out. Sometimes by 3-4 wounds, sometimes by huge margins like 10-12. It depends on the target, but its actually kind of a big gap in general. Unless your targets are mid-tier armor save and high toughness (Nids for example) then the mass attacks of Letters will always edge out Crushers.
Also bare in mind the diminishing returns. If you lose on Crusher, thats a large chunk of your offense gone. If you lose 3 Letters (the wounds equivelent), youre still laughing.
No, bloodletters crap on bloodcrushers in terms of durability. The most effective weapon and killing bloodletters is still more effective at killing bloodcrushers.
vaklor4 wrote: So has anyone found literally any use for Bloodcrushers besides mandatory brigade slots? I've tried mathhammering them against bloodletters in pretty much every toughness/wounds/save ratio, and the Letters are always either comparable or better, and the Bloodletters have the benefit of being troops and being harder to kill.
One advantage of course, is that you can paint and play with 3 cool bloodcrusher models, instead of 20 samey bloodletter models. Not a competitive viewpoint (in which case, again, you should be playing 90 bloodletters and 120 cultists) but for us filthy casuals it's a pretty important point
This hits me so hard. There is so much Khorne stuff that I'd buy if only I could imagine them seeing some time on the table.
So ok. Bloodcrushers are worse than Bloodletters. But... how much worse exactly? Surely I wouldn't be crippling myself too badly if I ran a unit of Bloodcrushers?
I DIDZ DA MAFFS
Without typing a spreadsheet on my phone, they can take SLIGHTLY more punishment than Bloodletters, but only like...1-2 more wounds
Offensively, Bloodletters always edge them out. Sometimes by 3-4 wounds, sometimes by huge margins like 10-12. It depends on the target, but its actually kind of a big gap in general. Unless your targets are mid-tier armor save and high toughness (Nids for example) then the mass attacks of Letters will always edge out Crushers.
Also bare in mind the diminishing returns. If you lose on Crusher, thats a large chunk of your offense gone. If you lose 3 Letters (the wounds equivelent), youre still laughing.
No, bloodletters crap on bloodcrushers in terms of durability. The most effective weapon and killing bloodletters is still more effective at killing bloodcrushers.
No, there are corner cases. The +1 toughness and 4+ armor save make them more durable against massed shots from things like guardsmen and termagaunts. But the moment you introduce AP or multi damage weapons, their edge goes right out the window.
Hmm. Well, there *might* well be niche use for crushers as escorts in an armoured list. If everything else in the army is a tank or walker or plane, and they’re the only T4 target, then fire that sweeps them away isn’t cracking your bigger nuts, and small arms fire at them isn’t going to be massively efficient.
They’ll also benefit from concealed positions, if you lose first turn. That’s a pip in their favour, endurance-wise.
None of this is convincing me to take the plunge, though, and I love the models & like to field mechanised armies :/
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Well, there *might* well be niche use for crushers as escorts in an armoured list. If everything else in the army is a tank or walker or plane, and they’re the only T4 target, then fire that sweeps them away isn’t cracking your bigger nuts, and small arms fire at them isn’t going to be massively efficient.
They’ll also benefit from concealed positions, if you lose first turn. That’s a pip in their favour, endurance-wise.
None of this is convincing me to take the plunge, though, and I love the models & like to field mechanised armies :/
Good news is they aren't actually nearly as bad in Age of Sigmar, so if you ever pick that game up, you can still use 'em there! I know I love Crushers in that format.
sadly there is no comparison between letters and crushers, they fill exactly same role,but letters are more point wise and infantry with objsec, not a thing to underestimate, right now the meta is heavily shifted towards big guns for the big guys (at least here in italy) and mono infantry lists have an edge over mechanized or multiwounds models. Btw crushers models are really cool i own 6 painted.
blackmage wrote: sadly there is no comparison between letters and crushers, they fill exactly same role,but letters are more point wise and infantry with objsec, not a thing to underestimate, right now the meta is heavily shifted towards big guns for the big guys (at least here in italy) and mono infantry lists have an edge over mechanized or multiwounds models. Btw crushers models are really cool i own 6 painted.
Pretty much this. But even in a casual perspective, it's almost dumb to ever go Crushers. You almost only bring Crushers as an intentional handicap, it's that bad.
Well those numbers are certainly pretty damning. Thanks for indulging me guys. Looks like it would be a fun unit for playing casual games or as a demo army for teaching people how to play. "How competitive?" is a question that comes up a lot between people scheduling pick up games at my LGS so I suppose if I ever picked up a dozen bloodcrushers I can always swap them in against more casual lists.
blackmage wrote: sadly there is no comparison between letters and crushers, they fill exactly same role,but letters are more point wise and infantry with objsec, not a thing to underestimate, right now the meta is heavily shifted towards big guns for the big guys (at least here in italy) and mono infantry lists have an edge over mechanized or multiwounds models. Btw crushers models are really cool i own 6 painted.
Pretty much this. But even in a casual perspective, it's almost dumb to ever go Crushers. You almost only bring Crushers as an intentional handicap, it's that bad.
Are there any worthwhile choices in the Daemons codex, other than the boring bloodletter bomb?
And Daemon princes of course, but taking more than 2 or 3 of those is not very sportsmanlike.
I'm already taking 30 cultists and 3x3 nurglings, and that's all the chaff models I want. Rather fill my list up with interesting elites than dozens of interchangeable gribblies.
blackmage wrote: sadly there is no comparison between letters and crushers, they fill exactly same role,but letters are more point wise and infantry with objsec, not a thing to underestimate, right now the meta is heavily shifted towards big guns for the big guys (at least here in italy) and mono infantry lists have an edge over mechanized or multiwounds models. Btw crushers models are really cool i own 6 painted.
Pretty much this. But even in a casual perspective, it's almost dumb to ever go Crushers. You almost only bring Crushers as an intentional handicap, it's that bad.
Are there any worthwhile choices in the Daemons codex, other than the boring bloodletter bomb?
And Daemon princes of course, but taking more than 2 or 3 of those is not very sportsmanlike.
I'm already taking 30 cultists and 3x3 nurglings, and that's all the chaff models I want. Rather fill my list up with interesting elites than dozens of interchangeable gribblies.
From a non-tournament perspective, Pink Horrors, Brims, Lords of Change, Flesh Hounds, Skull Cannons, Seekers, and Daemonettes are all relatively good.
plaguebeares, pink horrors, plague drones, bloodletters, Dp, Nurgle characters, nurglings, changecaster, those are all nice choice, then anything depend what kind of play you enjoy more, competitive or more narrative/semi competitive.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: Plague Drones are one of the best hammer units? Easy to put into a Nurgling based battalion.
Not really sure how I'm organising my detachments yet. The only unit I'm fixed on (other than the cultists and nurglings) is a Khorne Prince with Skullreaver.
Considering some death guard terminators, which would seem to prompt a DG daemon prince as well.
No, there are corner cases. The +1 toughness and 4+ armor save make them more durable against massed shots from things like guardsmen and termagaunts. But the moment you introduce AP or multi damage weapons, their edge goes right out the window.
The most efficient gun against bloodletters is the bolter. S4 vs T3, no AP as they have 5++ anyway.
Even with that gun it takes 3.38 shots to kill it.
To kill a bloodcrusher it takes 18 shots.
So then we take points into account because without points stats and abilities are meaningless:
Bloodletters are about 7.833 - 8.25 points in game. So let's say 8. 3.38/8=0.4225
Bloodcrushers are about 49.09 - 55.3 points in game. So let's say for fun it's 49. 18/49=0.367
And there you have it. Even when shooting the most efficient weapon to kill bloodletters - they are STILL better in durability.
Sokhar wrote: So basically, Bloodcrushers should have a 3+ armor save if GW ever wants to see someone buy them/pull them off their shelf.
It's not the stats that are the issue, they're ultimately just cavalry after all in a guns and tanks setting. No, the issue is the price point. From the moment the Daemons codex was previewed I thought for sure that they'd get a price reduction, but as it stands it is just about the ONLY unit in the Khorne side of the codex that didnt get a direct buff in some way (aside from Bloodletters, who didnt need it.). At 47 points per model, they are ridiculously overcosted.
Sokhar wrote: So basically, Bloodcrushers should have a 3+ armor save if GW ever wants to see someone buy them/pull them off their shelf.
It's not the stats that are the issue, they're ultimately just cavalry after all in a guns and tanks setting. No, the issue is the price point. From the moment the Daemons codex was previewed I thought for sure that they'd get a price reduction, but as it stands it is just about the ONLY unit in the Khorne side of the codex that didnt get a direct buff in some way (aside from Bloodletters, who didnt need it.). At 47 points per model, they are ridiculously overcosted.
Well there's 2 ways to fix that. Drop the price or up the stats. Issue with constant price dropping is that armies get bigger and bigger and scale at the bottom end starts to go haywire. 1 pts difference between 3 and 4 is lot more important than even 3 pts from 44 to 47! This makes it hard to balance stuff at <10 pts and ups the amount of models you need to buy...
Eventually you can run into situation where bottom end of scale is too cheap and you can't even fix balance by making stuff cheaper! You also can run into situation where you literally can't increase amount of models(funny note. I learned some time ago how much orks I can actually in practice fit into board. It's not even maxed out for 2k...So for example I wouldn't really be benefitted by ork boy becoming cheaper as I couldn't USE those points for more boyz...).
It also leads into present situation where greater daemons and daemon princes have gone from terror to "spam them". Makes me sad when I see 3 of them. I dont' care if that's broken or not. I just would want them to be scary enough that 1 would be typical and would be terror to face.
Don't see why it would be that bad to have crushers be scary not because there's more of them but because they are so scary that you don't need to spam them. Cheaper € wise as well as you don't need to spam the boxes
WRT the Skull Cannon, worth noting that it’s going to fire at full effect on Concealed Positions. I think medium plus guns that ignore cover are worth a little more now?
hit the 
Four Pinks come back, getting me to 26 models. Heh. The Commander in 
) The Blood Throne's absolutely massive base make it far easier to get into contact with it in melee, while the skullmaster is far easier to snug into other units, or even just up against terrain. Also, trust me the Blood Throne still goes down like the berlin wall against any actual competent melee units. It's only got 7 wounds, 7 toughness and a 5++ invuln, which seems nice until you face off against something like a power fist Berzerker captain, who can handedly 100-0 a Bloodthrone, without even fighting twice.
