I just got started in being interested in playing daemons and have a very basic question- Are all of the daemons listed in the current 40K codex? If not, where else can I find the info about them? I'm wondering about models like the Infernal enrapturess that came out, I think, after the codex.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I just got started in being interested in playing daemons and have a very basic question- Are all of the daemons listed in the current 40K codex? If not, where else can I find the info about them? I'm wondering about models like the Infernal enrapturess that came out, I think, after the codex.
Thanks for any info.
The demons that got released after the codex were all included in Psychic Awakening : Engine War.
Enrapturess, Epitome, Syll'Esske, keeper of secrets, that one khorne one.
With blast weapons now in play is there any reason to take demon troop units in numbers larger than 10? I know that they get a special bonus when you have 20+ of them in a unit but does that bonus make it worth facing maximum shots from blast weapons?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: With blast weapons now in play is there any reason to take demon troop units in numbers larger than 10? I know that they get a special bonus when you have 20+ of them in a unit but does that bonus make it worth facing maximum shots from blast weapons?
I feel that its only more specific units that are scary against hordes. A normal blast weapon like a grenade doing 6 shots is not scary to a horde. Its when you have like 24 max shots because its a horde, that is when it would get painful. So, yeah it depends on what the opponent brings to the list. Even then, I don't think 1 thunderfire cannon is going to be a counter if you have like 3 massive 30 strong horde units. And these days, I don't know how many lists bring three thunderfires anymore.
There are also aggressors. The blast version of those things are ridiculous.
So yeah, basically, if you are playing against space marines, you have to be a bit more careful, but if you are playing against anything else, I am pretty sure you will be fine.
buddha wrote: As stated above, aggressors near single handily invalidate blobs. Plaguebearer blobs can still be okay as they have natural -1 to hit and T4 and DR.
All other daemon infantry is T3 though so unless you plan to DSMSU will always be a better bet.
One of the reasons id like to see more diversity in the daemon infantry. for example bloodletters used to be T4 with 3+ armor... hell khorne in general used to have 3+ armor..
yet I have a Khorne and a Tzeentch army and still no clue how to bring it in the table
Yeah i have a slaanesh daemon army and i dont even know where to start. with HQ's so limited now with supreme command changes im at a loss on what to even field.
I wonder if named greater daemons will be designated at the same level as daemon primarchs. That would at least give daemon players an extra HQ slot to play with.
Pink Horrors are not that bad.
They can go up to a 3++ with T4 and 6+++ if you add a strategem, 1-2 psychic powers, 1-2 buff characters and a bit of luck for Boon of Change.
If you invest a few Reinforcement points you can keep them above half starting strength and block an objective with 30 dudes forever + you get to keep the 20+ bonus longer.
Killing them will just add more horrors and block the opponent off. On top you might get lucky with the standard to get horrors back and can still use the moral strategem once if you get lots of casualties in one turn and want to play it safe.
Also you get 90 shots with S4 / 5 that can get an +1 to wound with flickering flames.
I run a Tzeentch Patrol detachment with Changecaster, Changeling (most of the time), 30 Pinks and 50-100 reinforcement points, so about 450 points. (350 without changeling)
First turn they run for an objective and stay there till the end of the game while my TS do their thing, but this can work with CD only lists as well.
They never disappointed me in my 9th edition games so far, with the new missions they work fantastic.
Pink Horrors can't get a 3++. They have a 4++ (unlike other Tzeentch Daemons who have a 5++ plus 1 to roll), and the warp surge strat can't improve an invuln beyond a 4++.
thing is, each god as some good units but for now you can't make a good list without mixing them as you like
and with the changes coming to Marines, there is another reason for waiting until the daemons codex hits
if we ever get one, as for now I see a CSM Codex with Supplements for each Legion coming and that gives several options what happens to daemons
a Codex with everything inside, a Codex and God specific Supplements, no Codex for their own but God Supplements for CSM including them etc.
A Codex were you can mix all units as you like but no CSM is likley as GW likes alternate those things (one Edition mix Mortals with Daemons but not Gods, next one mix Gods but not Mortals with Daemons)
So for now I don't want to buy into anything new just to be able to play 2-3 games until everyting changes again
They never disappointed me in my 9th edition games so far, with the new missions they work fantastic.
They never disappointed you because you cheated, by giving them a 3++, which isnt possible, as JakeSiren already said.
No need to jump to conclusions, cheating requires intent too and its an easy kind of mistake to make considering basically every tzeentch other demon in the codex gets to a functionnal 3++ with warp surge.
Answering to an earlier question :
I feel like Mono Tzeentch isnt that bad, obviously not tier 1 but getting a few exalted lord of change, a few units of flamers and screamers can do decent by using their speed. I wouldnt bring it (or demons as a whole) to a big tournament but for local tournaments and friendly games they can hold their own.
Pinks aren't the worst unit to play either and brims are still cheap enough to allow you to fill a battalion for more HQ slots.
Now my main complaints about tzeentch : Give more spells, revert the nonstop herald pts hike, give the changeling more wounds + fly(with a fitting movement speed).
And give us an actual gun platform, tzeetch would be the perfect god to have long range shooting IMO, giving skull cannons to khorne always felt strange to me.
Now a question : What is your favorite equipment to give your KoS? I only tried the shield so far but i feel like i'm basically paying 10pts for 3 more wounds.
you have to consider that now the most played army is primaris marines/veichles.... pink horrors goes nowhere, they maybe can threathen some small units but point investement is not convenient.
blackmage wrote: you have to consider that now the most played army is primaris marines/veichles.... pink horrors goes nowhere, they maybe can threathen some small units but point investement is not convenient.
oh im fully aware of that, they wont kill much, but thats still 30+ models to kill to take them off an objective. From my experience, marines kill my admech tanks faster than they can kill hordes (most people i play with use the 4 -2 2 bolter so they don't have the rate of fire to get through a big horde). Again, i'm not saying that mono-tzeentch is top tier, just that it can do something and if you don't want to run pinks, just downgrade them to brims instead to fill your minimum requirements (or if you dont mind souping gods, just get nurglings instead).
The other units are still decent at the very least (LoC, flamers and screamers).
Pinks aren't the worst unit to play either and brims are still cheap enough to allow you to fill a battalion for more HQ slots.
What ? Brims are cheap enough ? Did you miss the increase to 5 pts. ? A chaos cultist is 6 and a guardsman is 5. Cultists are five times better, guardsmen are ten times better. I would rather run 30 pinks than 30 brims. Pinks are well worth the additional 3 pts.
I don't agree at all that pinks have nothing to shoot at against primaris. They have 18" range, and with herald support (+1S and flickering flames) they kill a 5-man squad of primaris when they shoot, or drop 7.5 wounds on a T7 3+ target. Stack that with 4++ and splitting, and they remain a competitive troops choice for 8pts, only 2pts more than cultists...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus if you're running CP heavy, then 1cp for a 'guaranteed' smite can be great: considering their huge board coverage they often get to pick who to drop it on.
What ? Brims are cheap enough ? Did you miss the increase to 5 pts.?
yet, if Tzeentch want the cheapest unit to fill slots, they are your best option
and 10 Pinks as a filler won't do much anyway so you can save points here and bring more Units
What ? Brims are cheap enough ? Did you miss the increase to 5 pts.?
yet, if Tzeentch want the cheapest unit to fill slots, they are your best option
and 10 Pinks as a filler won't do much anyway so you can save points here and bring more Units
10 pinks are much better at holding the objective marker in your deployment zone than brims. They have 4++, instead of 6++. They can shoot. When one dies it can split, brims cant split.
30 pinks+herald 325pts perhaps more if you count a DP to reroll 1's to hit, 5 primaris 100... Footprint is less big than you believe, you need to respect new choerency rule, they hold 1 objective usually.
Demons lists based on infantry are made obsolete by things like agressors and new secondary "ahbor the witch" dont help at all things like blobs of pinks+herald (8 potential vp for your opponent).
pray they are not on cover.
Last but not least usually they play impulsors so good luck wipe away squads, unless you are playing against a monkey.
Anyway until a new codex is released demons aren't in good spot.
We have national trials in november and we are testing some solutions, demons now are good or like allies or in team competitions where you know what you can face with a specific list, like trials, pure demons list have hard times in lot of matchups, maybe you can still play nurgle battalion spamming nurglins and Pb's plus a TZ demons patrol, with a full equipped LOC 28-30 pink changecaster and maybe some flamers or screamers. That might work if you face lists tailored for actual marine/veichles meta, they could have not enough firepower to wipe all those bodies.
I agree daemons are in a very tough spot, especially mono armies.
I do think there is a niche competitive build of 6 greater daemons with nurglings and a few troops sprinkled in. It negates most of the current builds like harlies and custodes and SMs don't like it's speed and high damage.
Pinks aren't the worst unit to play either and brims are still cheap enough to allow you to fill a battalion for more HQ slots.
What ? Brims are cheap enough ? Did you miss the increase to 5 pts. ? A chaos cultist is 6 and a guardsman is 5. Cultists are five times better, guardsmen are ten times better. I would rather run 30 pinks than 30 brims. Pinks are well worth the additional 3 pts.
i meant cheap enough to fill a mono god battalion. Not to do anything remarkable on the table. 150 pts to take up space isnt the end of the world. And i also stated that if you really want to make a stronger list, replacing them with nurglings is how you achieve that but it breaks the mono god condition that my comments were answering to.
buddha wrote: I agree daemons are in a very tough spot, especially mono armies.
I do think there is a niche competitive build of 6 greater daemons with nurglings and a few troops sprinkled in. It negates most of the current builds like harlies and custodes and SMs don't like it's speed and high damage.
buddha wrote: I agree daemons are in a very tough spot, especially mono armies.
I do think there is a niche competitive build of 6 greater daemons with nurglings and a few troops sprinkled in. It negates most of the current builds like harlies and custodes and SMs don't like it's speed and high damage.
I will run my Mono Khorne army again ultra competitive list. I will make that game soooo boring and easy for them and said in a sarcastic way : that what fun...
I saw one battle report recently where a mono Khorne army held its own against a Blood Angels force by holding objectives. Another one had a BT of insensate rage take down two dreadnoughts in one turn. Mono Khorne can be very powerful if you play your cards right.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I saw one battle report recently where a mono Khorne army held its own against a Blood Angels force by holding objectives. Another one had a BT of insensate rage take down two dreadnoughts in one turn. Mono Khorne can be very powerful if you play your cards right.
Khorne didn't lose any killing power in 9th which is not the issue.
9th is all about objectives and Khorne has seriously problems playing that game. Your only infantry is T3 and pricey. Gets worse as bloodletters are wasted sitting on objectives as their sole use is to kill things. Skull cannons and bloodcrushers are pricey and again focused on killing. So no matter what you bring in mono-khorne you are playing against the mission and over paying points to do it.
the list perfomed fine, played against AdMech and pull a win but was not easy, nurglings with fleshy abundance+nurgling infestation are a pain to deal with. Not sure still for Magnus but in a list like that i guess is a must include, him or Mortarion, problem of Mortarion is, without warptime hardly you can start it to the table, he is too slow.
You need more nurglins, but i dont have a way to have more, unless i take out a Keeper and dont think is good for how list work
Yeah no 3++ on the Pink Horrors, found that out today. :( Meh. Still they do their thing with a 4++ as well and those 2 CP were quite expensive anyway since i don`t run them solo i only soup them with TS. Might be an option to summon them now since i can`t use the strat so i would safe the CP for that 3rd daemon detachment.
@blackmage: That list looks fun. Magnus is great, but getting Mortarions punch would be nice. Since that Slaanesh detachment is too important for you the only way would be to change that undevided detachment. You could make it a Nurgle detachment, change the LoC to a GuO and take a CSM jumppack sorcerer with Warptime.
But that means loosing the Poxbringer and / or reducing the Nurglings.
GUO is meh.... reduce nurglings is out of question for me, they are too much important forcing opponent to waste fire power on them unless he want i score primary objective each turn, i dont think there is lot do to, only way is take out a KOS (maybe play an herald with forbidden gem+phantasmagoria) and see what happen.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I saw one battle report recently where a mono Khorne army held its own against a Blood Angels force by holding objectives. Another one had a BT of insensate rage take down two dreadnoughts in one turn. Mono Khorne can be very powerful if you play your cards right.
Khorne didn't lose any killing power in 9th which is not the issue.
9th is all about objectives and Khorne has seriously problems playing that game. Your only infantry is T3 and pricey. Gets worse as bloodletters are wasted sitting on objectives as their sole use is to kill things. Skull cannons and bloodcrushers are pricey and again focused on killing. So no matter what you bring in mono-khorne you are playing against the mission and over paying points to do it.
Small units of bloodletters can be good holding objectives due to their 5++ (and the strategic use of warp surge) save as long as they as they are backed up by hard-hitting units to attack the enemy, and their combat abilities makes it both easy for them to dislodge MEQs and TEQs and a risk to be charged by enemy units. Skull cannons can be iffy but with the new rules concerning heavy weapons, they aren't bad when kept in the rear. Princes and bloodthirsters backed up by heralds do a great job of mauling the enemy and keeping attacks away from objective-holders. Also, when it comes to taking objectives, people often forget about furies which are arguably better than bloodletters due to their increased speed and their ability to avoid blast weapons due to having a minimum five-model unit number.
I would go for mixed daemons honestly. It sometimes feels like you are playing only one quarter of a codex when you go mono god daemons.
So, like Khorne is killy, but lacks staying power. So mixing nurgle and Khorne helps you shore up each other strengths. You get the bloodletter bombs and killy to clear out objectives, and you get the psychic from nurgle plus the resilient troops that love to just sit on the objectives that Khorne has cleared out.
So, just go maybe double daemon faction. 2 more CP for a patrol with another chaos god is fine honestly, I feel. for Daemons, we generally need more HQ slots anyway. So this way, we don't lose our Loci too.
For any mono-slaanesh players out there what's your daemonette setup? I can't decide if 6 units if 10, 3 of 20, or 30 and three 10 girl units work best. Blast rules bedevil the equation for me.
buddha wrote: For any mono-slaanesh players out there what's your daemonette setup? I can't decide if 6 units if 10, 3 of 20, or 30 and three 10 girl units work best. Blast rules bedevil the equation for me.
Go for 10 or 30 and never go for 20. For my bloodletters, 20 trigger the bonus but if i lose one, the bonus is gone. Daemonettes got the same bonus over 20.
They’re T3 jump infantry with an invuln. With a small unit size, their main niche will probably be hiding behind LOS blockers, and filling in an Outriders. The latter is probably less useful with them costing 9ppm and a Patrol being effectively the same or better
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean,
Khorne - if you want two Flesh Hounds units and aren’t interested in a Bletterbomb, a small Furies unit is a cheaper detachment tax than ten Bletters
Tzeentch - if you want two Screamer units, nine Brimstones and a Blue are well worth the difference between themselves and five Furies IMO
Nurgle - if you want two Drone units, three Nurglings are a far better tax than five Furies
Slaanesh - if you want two Seeker or Flayer units, a Furies unit isn’t that bad a tax. It’s got synergy with their high movement and charge after advance from the detachment HQs, and it’s got synergy with various Slaaneshi Ld attacks, and if this cavalcade ends up in a brawl with non-ObSec units, it cheaply adds numbers to the objective control balance.
Anyone else liking flamers? They're infantry and great deepstrike units for secondaries and really help with thinning hordes or elites with the new MW strategems.
buddha wrote: Anyone else liking flamers? They're infantry and great deepstrike units for secondaries and really help with thinning hordes or elites with the new MW strategems.
Flamers have been the MVP in all my games.
Deepstrike a full squad and teleport a fluxmaster with them for flickering flames, pop the strat and you will melt multiple targets in one shooting phase.
Then you can use them to do actions, baiting the enemy to charge you only to overwatch them to death. Or you can go on the hunt to start melting stuff left and right.
Deepstrike a full squad and teleport a fluxmaster with them for flickering flames, pop the strat and you will melt multiple targets in one shooting phase.
Then you can use them to do actions, baiting the enemy to charge you only to overwatch them to death. Or you can go on the hunt to start melting stuff left and right.
Or, deepstrike a full squad, deepstrike a changecaster, play minions of magic on changecaster, auto manifest infernal gateway (can still be denied on a 10), use the strat to cast another power, use flickering flames on flamers, and use flames of mutation. Thats a lot of MWs. Also a lot of CP.
So I haven't played 40k in a good few years now, to the point where 8th completely passed me by. I've got a mountain of daemons, mostly Nurgle stuff, and no idea where to start. Anyone point me in the right direction of what makes a semi decent Nurgle focussed list?
The current Nurgle meta is Poxmonger daemon engines and nurgling spam. Plagueburst crawlers, myphitic blight haulers, nurgle defilers, contaminated monstrosity chaos spawn, and nurglings are all excellent right now.
Pure nurgle daemons is low tier right now because the entire daemons book is low tier. It's been this way since marines took over the meta last edition.
slave.entity wrote: The current Nurgle meta is Poxmonger daemon engines and nurgling spam. Plagueburst crawlers, myphitic blight haulers, nurgle defilers, contaminated monstrosity chaos spawn, and nurglings are all excellent right now.
Pure nurgle daemons is low tier right now because the entire daemons book is low tier. It's been this way since marines took over the meta last edition.
Nurglings sound good on paper, but the reality once you start using them is:
a) They are not infantry models. So, you cannot do actions even though you may be sitting on an objective.
b) The meta is gunning for 2/3 wound marines/custodes and therefore cramming D2 (or greater) flat damage weapons into lists. Many armies can wipe out the typical 3 base/12 wound unit without them getting any disgustingly resilient rolls due to their Squishable rule.
c) The larger base sizes makes keeping coherency in building and ruins more difficult especially for larger units unless your opponent is very forgiving with 'wobbly model syndrome'.
d) Even though they have a lot of wounds it's only a few models for Objective Secured purposes. Any objective they steal can be taken back quite easily by almost any other ObSec unit.
e) Plaguebearers don't suffer from any of these problems and can still be placed with Denizens of the Warp closer to where you need them.
buddha wrote: Anyone see the SpikeyBits article that a mono-slaanesh list just win a 60 person GT? Very curious to know how it played.
The list also has 20 seekers with icon and instrument and 89 reinforcment points. Those points are essential in making the list work.
I´ll write a detailed breakdown, but the short story is it´s a finesse army and sequencing/activation of when to activate what unit and how and when to pile-in and consolidate is fundamental. One slip and it all falls apart. Both the 3 fiend units and the epitome can prevent people from falliing back. So you have to plan it really well and get the right unit
And you need to select the right secondaries. A melee-army has to have secondaries that "max out at 15" if the enemy does not come closer to play. So I always planted 3 banners turn1. Turn 1 move (not advance) the daemonettes to 2 objectives and raise the banners. Summon the masque and have it plant the 3rd banner.Unless the enemy takes the objectives from me those 3 flags from turn 1 will always generate 15 VPs.
If you look at the GT-mission packs you will see that you most probably will get the daemonettes in melee turn 2 anyway: the distance between objectives is always less than 24". So turn 1 move the nettes 7 and do an action, turn 2 advance and charge. You will make it even without advancing turn 1.
But then you ask, what if there are screens? That´s perfect: tag the screen, keep a single daemonette in engagement range at 0" and the rest of the unit more than 0.5" away from the first daemonette. , That way only 1 daemonette gets to attack, do the same with a fiend and you are shielded from shooting the next turn. The fiend stays at 1" and the daemonette in base to base, that way only 1 model gets to attack the fiend. There is soo much more to write about positions,charges, pile-ins and consolidate moves. But to make the list work you have to be able to play off those 3" moves in the right order (or else go play Marines ;-P)
The masque is essential for the war of attrition when all units are locked down in CC and can´t fall back. The 6" aura that gives -1 to hit vs keyword DAEMONETTES makes sure you will out-grind most armies since keyword daemonette applies to: daemonettes, seekers, the epitome, Syll´Eske and the masque itself.
This is where the list shines, play the aura of aquicinence (spellig may be off) and stack with bewitching aura and there is no army in the game that will leave the grind alive. To add insult to injury, there is a hidden durability to the list as well: Greater daemons give Ld 10 to nearby daemons, combined with -1 to hit and -1/2 attacks from enemy models, your units just wont lose that many models. Syll´Eske lets you reroll morale tests and go fishing for those 1´s to regain models. The least number of models regained in the grind was probaly 17.
Let´s say you consolidate into 5 aggressors. You can´t attack them, but they will do next to no damage to the nettes: -1/2 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s and wounds are saved on 5++. If you lose 4 models and the unit is within 6" of a KoS you can´t fail the moral, but still get to roll, with a reroll from Syll´Eske, to see if you regain d6 models...
My friend started Necrons and we both were interested in some narrative play. So I started a GK crusade. After crushing him in the first two games (at 25 and 50PL, respectively), I decided I'd make it easier and take Daemons. (Our story is that a Daemon invasion came to an awakening Tomb World, and the GK have been deployed to stop it, with the Spooky Bois stuck in the middle.)
My list at 25PL was a Patrol of Tzeentch Daemons: Changecaster, 20x Pinks, 10x Pinks, 6x Flamers.
It was a close game, but free splitting is the most insane thing that GW has ever imagined. Essentially, from those two units of Pinks, I had 30 4++ saves, 60 5++ saves, and all the ablative wounds I could ever need to sacrifice for morale.
Flamers were the MVP. That much movement on that small of a board was crazy. Of course, I put Marked for Greatness on them and then gave them the Battle-Tested honour. (They are now obsec and can shoot while performing actions.)
My list at 50PL was the same Tzeentch Patrol, with the smaller Pinks bumped to 20. Also a Patrol of TSons: Winged DP, Exalted Sorcerer, and 10x Cultists.
Again, the Flamers were the MVP. Being able to perform an action on a centerfield objective WHILE still delivering all those autohits is brutal.
I deep struck them in the backfield and teleported the Herald support. They killed three units and performed two actions throughout the game. They also warped the entire enemy movement, keeping literally everything running away from them.
The DP got three kills in the game (out of seven enemy units), so he was also, as expected, a beast.
After the first game, we decided that my Pinks wouldn't split down to Brims--I'd stop at Blues. It was still ridiculous. At one point, after gaining Pinks back from morale, I had lost 13 models from the unit, and somehow at 21 models. Very disheartening to the Necron player. I don't feel super bad, though, because I hate Reanimation Protocols.
The Cultists moved forward ~25 inches in that game, and did literally nothing else at all.
My next move is to bring in a LoC, with Robe, Impossible Form, and a decent Exalted trait. I'll also have to buy some TSons infantry at some point, since right now all I own in Sorcerers and Princes. Maybe I'll get my friend a vacuum for his birthday, to help with all the dust.
buddha wrote: Anyone see the SpikeyBits article that a mono-slaanesh list just win a 60 person GT? Very curious to know how it played.
The list also has 20 seekers with icon and instrument and 89 reinforcment points. Those points are essential in making the list work.
I´ll write a detailed breakdown, but the short story is it´s a finesse army and sequencing/activation of when to activate what unit and how and when to pile-in and consolidate is fundamental. One slip and it all falls apart. Both the 3 fiend units and the epitome can prevent people from falliing back. So you have to plan it really well and get the right unit
And you need to select the right secondaries. A melee-army has to have secondaries that "max out at 15" if the enemy does not come closer to play. So I always planted 3 banners turn1. Turn 1 move (not advance) the daemonettes to 2 objectives and raise the banners. Summon the masque and have it plant the 3rd banner.Unless the enemy takes the objectives from me those 3 flags from turn 1 will always generate 15 VPs.
If you look at the GT-mission packs you will see that you most probably will get the daemonettes in melee turn 2 anyway: the distance between objectives is always less than 24". So turn 1 move the nettes 7 and do an action, turn 2 advance and charge. You will make it even without advancing turn 1.
But then you ask, what if there are screens? That´s perfect: tag the screen, keep a single daemonette in engagement range at 0" and the rest of the unit more than 0.5" away from the first daemonette. , That way only 1 daemonette gets to attack, do the same with a fiend and you are shielded from shooting the next turn. The fiend stays at 1" and the daemonette in base to base, that way only 1 model gets to attack the fiend. There is soo much more to write about positions,charges, pile-ins and consolidate moves. But to make the list work you have to be able to play off those 3" moves in the right order (or else go play Marines ;-P)
The masque is essential for the war of attrition when all units are locked down in CC and can´t fall back. The 6" aura that gives -1 to hit vs keyword DAEMONETTES makes sure you will out-grind most armies since keyword daemonette applies to: daemonettes, seekers, the epitome, Syll´Eske and the masque itself.
This is where the list shines, play the aura of aquicinence (spellig may be off) and stack with bewitching aura and there is no army in the game that will leave the grind alive. To add insult to injury, there is a hidden durability to the list as well: Greater daemons give Ld 10 to nearby daemons, combined with -1 to hit and -1/2 attacks from enemy models, your units just wont lose that many models. Syll´Eske lets you reroll morale tests and go fishing for those 1´s to regain models. The least number of models regained in the grind was probaly 17.
Let´s say you consolidate into 5 aggressors. You can´t attack them, but they will do next to no damage to the nettes: -1/2 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s and wounds are saved on 5++. If you lose 4 models and the unit is within 6" of a KoS you can´t fail the moral, but still get to roll, with a reroll from Syll´Eske, to see if you regain d6 models...
This was awesome to read, thank you and congrats on your win. I'll look forward to a more detailed breakdown as you mentioned.
buddha wrote: Anyone see the SpikeyBits article that a mono-slaanesh list just win a 60 person GT? Very curious to know how it played.
The list also has 20 seekers with icon and instrument and 89 reinforcment points. Those points are essential in making the list work.
I´ll write a detailed breakdown, but the short story is it´s a finesse army and sequencing/activation of when to activate what unit and how and when to pile-in and consolidate is fundamental. One slip and it all falls apart. Both the 3 fiend units and the epitome can prevent people from falliing back. So you have to plan it really well and get the right unit
And you need to select the right secondaries. A melee-army has to have secondaries that "max out at 15" if the enemy does not come closer to play. So I always planted 3 banners turn1. Turn 1 move (not advance) the daemonettes to 2 objectives and raise the banners. Summon the masque and have it plant the 3rd banner.Unless the enemy takes the objectives from me those 3 flags from turn 1 will always generate 15 VPs.
If you look at the GT-mission packs you will see that you most probably will get the daemonettes in melee turn 2 anyway: the distance between objectives is always less than 24". So turn 1 move the nettes 7 and do an action, turn 2 advance and charge. You will make it even without advancing turn 1.
But then you ask, what if there are screens? That´s perfect: tag the screen, keep a single daemonette in engagement range at 0" and the rest of the unit more than 0.5" away from the first daemonette. , That way only 1 daemonette gets to attack, do the same with a fiend and you are shielded from shooting the next turn. The fiend stays at 1" and the daemonette in base to base, that way only 1 model gets to attack the fiend. There is soo much more to write about positions,charges, pile-ins and consolidate moves. But to make the list work you have to be able to play off those 3" moves in the right order (or else go play Marines ;-P)
The masque is essential for the war of attrition when all units are locked down in CC and can´t fall back. The 6" aura that gives -1 to hit vs keyword DAEMONETTES makes sure you will out-grind most armies since keyword daemonette applies to: daemonettes, seekers, the epitome, Syll´Eske and the masque itself.
This is where the list shines, play the aura of aquicinence (spellig may be off) and stack with bewitching aura and there is no army in the game that will leave the grind alive. To add insult to injury, there is a hidden durability to the list as well: Greater daemons give Ld 10 to nearby daemons, combined with -1 to hit and -1/2 attacks from enemy models, your units just wont lose that many models. Syll´Eske lets you reroll morale tests and go fishing for those 1´s to regain models. The least number of models regained in the grind was probaly 17.
Let´s say you consolidate into 5 aggressors. You can´t attack them, but they will do next to no damage to the nettes: -1/2 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s and wounds are saved on 5++. If you lose 4 models and the unit is within 6" of a KoS you can´t fail the moral, but still get to roll, with a reroll from Syll´Eske, to see if you regain d6 models...
What are the 89 reinforcement points for specifically? Especially that makes them so key?
Thank you for this. I just tried a Slaanesh Daemons army over TTS and saw only the barest shades of some of the maneuvering tricks involved; You laying them out along with the HQ combos and aura stacking will really help me next time I decide to plonk them on a table, virtual or otherwise.
What are the 89 reinforcement points for specifically? Especially that makes them so key?
Well there are two parts to the answer:
1. The list needs to summon 1 unit that can do the rise the banners action turn 1 otherwise one of the daemonette-units has to do an action turn 2 and those daemons should be charging instead.
2. I summon the masque because of the -1 to to hit aura for DAEMONETTES but in a match vs psycher heavy armies the infernal enrapturess can be a good summoning option.
Summary: You need to summon 1 unit to rise 3 banners (action) turn 1, since you can´t afford to have 24 daemonettes not fighting in turn 2. I summon the masque because of the amazing synergies with my army, but you could summon any infantry unit turn 1 to do the action.
I am trying to do the distances in my head and not on the table, but are you leaving a character stationary to summon The Masque? If so, is it an objective in or near your DZ (since the character has to be stationary and the Masque must summon within 12" of them)?
I guess where I am going is: does that strategy require 3 objectives in or within 7-12" of your DZ?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am trying to do the distances in my head and not on the table, but are you leaving a character stationary to summon The Masque? If so, is it an objective in or near your DZ (since the character has to be stationary and the Masque must summon within 12" of them)?
I guess where I am going is: does that strategy require 3 objectives in or within 7-12" of your DZ?
Yes, look closely at the GT-mission pack. Notice the placement of objectives. Not every mission will let you place 3 banners, but many do.
Take scorched earth (mission 12) and Retrieval mission (mission 11), both these missions will let you rise 3 banners. But to reach 3rd objective in scorched earth you have to summon. The daemonettes just can´t reach it with a 7" move. So you use the daemonettes, make a normal move, take the action, summon with either Syll or the epitome, decide this by studying terrain and the opposing army. The seekers, fiends and/or keepers will proviede "look out sir" to the masque. So deployment is done to ensure you can summon on one of the midfield objectives.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am trying to do the distances in my head and not on the table, but are you leaving a character stationary to summon The Masque? If so, is it an objective in or near your DZ (since the character has to be stationary and the Masque must summon within 12" of them)?
I guess where I am going is: does that strategy require 3 objectives in or within 7-12" of your DZ?
Yes, look closely at the GT-mission pack. Notice the placement of objectives. Not every mission will let you place 3 banners, but many do.
Take scorched earth (mission 12) and Retrieval mission (mission 11), both these missions will let you rise 3 banners. But to reach 3rd objective in scorched earth you have to summon. The daemonettes just can´t reach it with a 7" move. So you use the daemonettes, make a normal move, take the action, summon with either Syll or the epitome, decide this by studying terrain and the opposing army. The seekers, fiends and/or keepers will proviede "look out sir" to the masque. So deployment is done to ensure you can summon on one of the midfield objectives.
Gotcha, so you deploy to make sure either Syll or the Epitome is within 12" of the midfield objective (which is more than 10" away but within 15", since 'nettes can't get to it), move the 'nettes to the other two, summon on that midfield one, and then sweep forwards with fiends and seekers but stay within 3" of the Masque with one or the other (or both).
What are the 89 reinforcement points for specifically? Especially that makes them so key?
Well there are two parts to the answer:
1. The list needs to summon 1 unit that can do the rise the banners action turn 1 otherwise one of the daemonette-units has to do an action turn 2 and those daemons should be charging instead.
2. I summon the masque because of the -1 to to hit aura for DAEMONETTES but in a match vs psycher heavy armies the infernal enrapturess can be a good summoning option.
Summary: You need to summon 1 unit to rise 3 banners (action) turn 1, since you can´t afford to have 24 daemonettes not fighting in turn 2. I summon the masque because of the amazing synergies with my army, but you could summon any infantry unit turn 1 to do the action.
What are the 89 reinforcement points for specifically? Especially that makes them so key?
Well there are two parts to the answer:
1. The list needs to summon 1 unit that can do the rise the banners action turn 1 otherwise one of the daemonette-units has to do an action turn 2 and those daemons should be charging instead.
2. I summon the masque because of the -1 to to hit aura for DAEMONETTES but in a match vs psycher heavy armies the infernal enrapturess can be a good summoning option.
Summary: You need to summon 1 unit to rise 3 banners (action) turn 1, since you can´t afford to have 24 daemonettes not fighting in turn 2. I summon the masque because of the amazing synergies with my army, but you could summon any infantry unit turn 1 to do the action.
Wait, we’re allowed to Summon on the first turn?
Can you point to a rule that is stopping you from using daemonic ritual turn 1? Page 256 in the BRB and page 80 in the GT-book are only for strategic reserves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The GT-mission pack p 6 has rules for reinforcments and the GT-missionpack and reinforcments.
I can see summoning being a greyzone, since the summoned units to not start the battle in a location other than and you can´t delclare it as a reinforcment during step 10. But when set up they follow other rules for reinforcments.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Oof, well, I'm glad the TO was good with it this time!
The summoning is a bit outdated as game-mechanic. It does not fit in the framework of 9th ed and reserves.
Could one argue that other abilities that add units to the army won´t work turn 1? Like biovores adding sporemines if they miss.
And how about Tervigons, can they spawn a new unit of termagaunts turn 1?
At step 10 there is no unit to place in reserves and what happens if we try to summon a unit i turn 4? Is it declared dead, then?
Or if we don´t spend the points, and don´t summon at all. By the rules reinforcements not placed on the table by turn 3 is considered destroyed.
Reinforcments can´t be placed turn 1, but a reinforcment unit is defined as " A unit that starts the game in a location other than the battlefied, and is not embarked in a transport unit that starts on the battlefield, is considered to be a reinforcement unit."
That does not interact with summoning and reinforcment points in any way. There is no unit to place in any location when the battle starts!?
I guess daemons and summoning will work within the framework once the codex drops.
Summoning would be interesting if it changed to apply to units in strategic reserve. so you could deploy them right onto the table near a character or from a board edge, granted more limited than just using reinforcement points but it would be a nice change compared to how other armies strategic reserves function
Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts, -1CP]: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Smite, Staff of Tzeentch, The Impossible Robe, Warlord
. Exalted Lord of Change [-1CP]: 5. Aura of Mutability
Troops [26 PL, 554pts, -1CP] +
Bloodletters [8 PL, 185pts, -1CP]: Banner of Blood [-1CP], Daemonic Icon [15pts], Instrument of Chaos [10pts]
. 19x Bloodletter [152pts]: 19x Hellblade
. Bloodreaper [8pts]: Hellblade
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts, -1CP]: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Smite, Staff of Tzeentch, The Impossible Robe, Warlord
. Exalted Lord of Change [-1CP]: 5. Aura of Mutability
Troops [26 PL, 554pts, -1CP] +
Bloodletters [8 PL, 185pts, -1CP]: Banner of Blood [-1CP], Daemonic Icon [15pts], Instrument of Chaos [10pts]
. 19x Bloodletter [152pts]: 19x Hellblade
. Bloodreaper [8pts]: Hellblade
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
I'm guessing he runs around the map being really annoying to kill. His list has virtually no dedicated damage units. Just the bloodletters really. Everything else in the list appears to be fielded for their durability, with damage being a secondary concern.
Eight beasts of Nurgle is a ludicrously efficient target unit for acidic slobber. In a 2K game, I’d maybe be inclined to put the Nurgle lot in their own detachment to really make those attacks pop, but I certainly can’t argue with Dan’s results - I guess he found the extra CP from taking a single detachment was worth the opportunity cost
Hmm. Hobby idea - a box of plague drones costs a third what three BoNs would, BoNs are supposed to be the larval forms of the flies, the wings are super useful for like space marine characters, AND you get three Plaguebearers… have a couple of actual BoNs at the front for recognisability of silhouette, and use their spare parts to make a load of the maggots recognisable for what they are
It’d probably look better than a load of ‘proper’ BoNs, individually they’re an amazing sculpt but as a large group their oddly regimented posture is a bit uncanny valley
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Hobby idea - a box of plague drones costs a third what three BoNs would, BoNs are supposed to be the larval forms of the flies, the wings are super useful for like space marine characters, AND you get three Plaguebearers… have a couple of actual BoNs at the front for recognisability of silhouette, and use their spare parts to make a load of the maggots recognisable for what they are
It’d probably look better than a load of ‘proper’ BoNs, individually they’re an amazing sculpt but as a large group their oddly regimented posture is a bit uncanny valley
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Hobby idea - a box of plague drones costs a third what three BoNs would, BoNs are supposed to be the larval forms of the flies, the wings are super useful for like space marine characters, AND you get three Plaguebearers… have a couple of actual BoNs at the front for recognisability of silhouette, and use their spare parts to make a load of the maggots recognisable for what they are
It’d probably look better than a load of ‘proper’ BoNs, individually they’re an amazing sculpt but as a large group their oddly regimented posture is a bit uncanny valley
I'm building a mono Khorne, fast, threat saturation type list. In short, one of each bloodthirster (all exalted), 3x10 hounds, 6 crushers, Karanak, 25-man bloodletter bomb, 2x10 bloodletters. I have some questions about this type of list
1. Does a winged skullreaver prince have a place in a list which already has 2 or more bloodthirsters? The benefit of being untargetable seems wasted when there are juicier targets anyway. The winged DP is now only 35-55 points less than a bloodthirster.
2. Is a deepstriking bloodletter bomb going to be crowded out by so many other units with big bases? I feel like there often won't be space to put them somewhere good. Is this a scenario where running 3x15 on foot as objective holders is preferable, or would you go further and run 3x10 and put the extra points into more hounds/crushers? A skull cannon?
3. Does this type of list give bloodcrushers a place? They seem like they'd be ignored in favour of shooting the bloodthirsters. They are a fraction over 2 points more per wound than flesh hounds, but have a 4+ save.
4. If running three bloodthirsters, would you give them all a relic? Two relics seems mandatory, with the Armour of Scorn and Gr'makht the Destroyer, but are any of the other relics worth another 2CP? The blood drinker talisman seems cool, but 2CP seems steep for the potential of getting wounds back IF you make it into combat
5. The exalted greater daemon traits for bloodthirsters are awesome, I don't see any bad options. Do you roll for two, or choose one?
Any advice is appreciated, I haven't fielded daemons since they were part of the CSM codex
Snake Tortoise wrote: I'm building a mono Khorne, fast, threat saturation type list. In short, one of each bloodthirster (all exalted), 3x10 hounds, 6 crushers, Karanak, 25-man bloodletter bomb, 2x10 bloodletters. I have some questions about this type of list
1. Does a winged skullreaver prince have a place in a list which already has 2 or more bloodthirsters? The benefit of being untargetable seems wasted when there are juicier targets anyway. The winged DP is now only 35-55 points less than a bloodthirster.
2. Is a deepstriking bloodletter bomb going to be crowded out by so many other units with big bases? I feel like there often won't be space to put them somewhere good. Is this a scenario where running 3x15 on foot as objective holders is preferable, or would you go further and run 3x10 and put the extra points into more hounds/crushers? A skull cannon?
3. Does this type of list give bloodcrushers a place? They seem like they'd be ignored in favour of shooting the bloodthirsters. They are a fraction over 2 points more per wound than flesh hounds, but have a 4+ save.
4. If running three bloodthirsters, would you give them all a relic? Two relics seems mandatory, with the Armour of Scorn and Gr'makht the Destroyer, but are any of the other relics worth another 2CP? The blood drinker talisman seems cool, but 2CP seems steep for the potential of getting wounds back IF you make it into combat
5. The exalted greater daemon traits for bloodthirsters are awesome, I don't see any bad options. Do you roll for two, or choose one?
Any advice is appreciated, I haven't fielded daemons since they were part of the CSM codex
You need to run you bloodletters in unit of 10 or 30 and you need a bloodmaster near because when they charge, you want that extra +1 str.
MSU for flesh hound. They are you conterspell guys. (I run 2 or 3 unit of 5)
that all i can tell... everything else is how you played the game and how you want to have fun. Here a list with 3 Bloodthirster (not mine but if you want to run big, do it big
Snake Tortoise wrote: I'm building a mono Khorne, fast, threat saturation type list. In short, one of each bloodthirster (all exalted), 3x10 hounds, 6 crushers, Karanak, 25-man bloodletter bomb, 2x10 bloodletters. I have some questions about this type of list
1. Does a winged skullreaver prince have a place in a list which already has 2 or more bloodthirsters? The benefit of being untargetable seems wasted when there are juicier targets anyway. The winged DP is now only 35-55 points less than a bloodthirster.
2. Is a deepstriking bloodletter bomb going to be crowded out by so many other units with big bases? I feel like there often won't be space to put them somewhere good. Is this a scenario where running 3x15 on foot as objective holders is preferable, or would you go further and run 3x10 and put the extra points into more hounds/crushers? A skull cannon?
3. Does this type of list give bloodcrushers a place? They seem like they'd be ignored in favour of shooting the bloodthirsters. They are a fraction over 2 points more per wound than flesh hounds, but have a 4+ save.
4. If running three bloodthirsters, would you give them all a relic? Two relics seems mandatory, with the Armour of Scorn and Gr'makht the Destroyer, but are any of the other relics worth another 2CP? The blood drinker talisman seems cool, but 2CP seems steep for the potential of getting wounds back IF you make it into combat
5. The exalted greater daemon traits for bloodthirsters are awesome, I don't see any bad options. Do you roll for two, or choose one?
Any advice is appreciated, I haven't fielded daemons since they were part of the CSM codex
1) I prefer Skullreaver on a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury. The success of the prince depends on if you place him in reserves and how many snipers your opponent has. Wherever this artifact goes, expect your opponent to make it priority #1 if they have ever played against it before.
2) This is really a meta question. Everybody plays with different amounts and sizes of terrain. You won't know for sure until you go to your local FLGS or tournament and play.
3) I would drop bloodcrushers in favor of bulking out your existing bloodletter squads or add new ones (they die very quickly to even the most basic weapons...and then there's Blast). The bloodcrushers are cavalry and you need the infantry keyword to perform actions as well. Leave the capture only stuff to the faster fleshounds. I would run Bloodletters MSU units of 10 to mitigate Blast and go for as many objectives as possible unless you really want to do one "bomb" unit. You can always sent two units of 10 (or more) after an important or contested objective.
4) If they are all also exalted (which they should be) then you are starting the game -6CP. That doesn't leave a lot leftover for stratagems and rerolls. I would prioritize exalted over extra artifact.
5) If playing competitively I would pick the defensive traits as they die faster than you think. Often you are just trading units with BT's. Or they are a distraction that don't actually make it across the board while your other units capture objectives/perform actions. If it's a casual game then roll for it and have fun.
I’m genuinely finding Bloodcrushers good now they can trample and charge again. If an objective is being babysat by like Devastators, a heavily damaged intervening unit becomes a speed ramp.
You need to run you bloodletters in unit of 10 or 30 and you need a bloodmaster near because when they charge, you want that extra +1 str.
MSU for flesh hound. They are you conterspell guys. (I run 2 or 3 unit of 5)
that all i can tell... everything else is how you played the game and how you want to have fun. Here a list with 3 Bloodthirster (not mine but if you want to run big, do it big
I think I still rate flesh hounds based on previous editions when they were amazing (6th? 7th?). In any case, I've almost painted twenty and Karanak so they'll have to stay for now.
That's an interesting list. I can't argue with triple IR bloodthirsters...that's brutal. I like that someone is getting some use out of bloodcrushers too, they should make it to combat unhurt when there are bigger threats bearing down
D6Damager wrote:
1) I prefer Skullreaver on a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury. The success of the prince depends on if you place him in reserves and how many snipers your opponent has. Wherever this artifact goes, expect your opponent to make it priority #1 if they have ever played against it before.
2) This is really a meta question. Everybody plays with different amounts and sizes of terrain. You won't know for sure until you go to your local FLGS or tournament and play.
3) I would drop bloodcrushers in favor of bulking out your existing bloodletter squads or add new ones (they die very quickly to even the most basic weapons...and then there's Blast). The bloodcrushers are cavalry and you need the infantry keyword to perform actions as well. Leave the capture only stuff to the faster fleshounds. I would run Bloodletters MSU units of 10 to mitigate Blast and go for as many objectives as possible unless you really want to do one "bomb" unit. You can always sent two units of 10 (or more) after an important or contested objective.
4) If they are all also exalted (which they should be) then you are starting the game -6CP. That doesn't leave a lot leftover for stratagems and rerolls. I would prioritize exalted over extra artifact.
5) If playing competitively I would pick the defensive traits as they die faster than you think. Often you are just trading units with BT's. Or they are a distraction that don't actually make it across the board while your other units capture objectives/perform actions. If it's a casual game then roll for it and have fun.
Good luck!
Thanks. The lack of infantry Khorne daemons have is tricky. Bloodletters, heralds, furies, that's it. My hope is the opponent has so many other more pressing units to deal with they can't spare the shots to clear the troops
The third artifact is a bad idea, agreed.
lindsay40k wrote:I’m genuinely finding Bloodcrushers good now they can trample and charge again. If an objective is being babysat by like Devastators, a heavily damaged intervening unit becomes a speed ramp.
Yeah that's a good strat, bulldoze some weakened chaff and launch into another assault. Good to hear it's working as intended. I like the flesh hound one too, advance and charge could make all the difference.
The thing about the Juggers strat is it doesn’t only let you stomp your way through a heavily weakened screen, it’s also a way to take out hard targets
If it hasn’t got a MW mitigation capability, shenanigans like rerollable 3++ and negatives to wound really don’t matter. I can see them being especially useful in Crusades
Ironically, the best counter may well be a Contorted Epitome.
Quick question - can I take 3 of the exalted GD relics if I have 3 exalted GDs (one on each), or is it just one per army? I'm just trying to make sense of the wording.
Verlo I read your list over and over starting from when it was first reviewed on goon. Weird to stumble upon the player now and get a glimpse into how the list was used. Its incredible. Thanks for sharing and props.
Hi all, I've just started collecting Daemons after years of playing Tau. I picked up two start collecting Tzeentch boxes and am struggling to weigh up which way to build them.
Would it be better to build:
- two Burning Chariots and two Changecasters
or
- Two Fluxmasters, 4 extra Screamers and 2 flamers
or
- a mix of the two options (maybe magnetise)
I'm just building up a foundation of Tzeentch models for now so it isn't going to be massively competitive but I just want to maximise what I've bought.
Burning chariots were bad in 8th and are still bad in 9th. Screamers and flamers are OK. You should always magnetize the exalted flamers to their chariots though. Chariots are an awesome model and I love using them in casual games.
Not a good choice, tzeentch and khorne are the weakest daemons overall, but tzeentch has some nice units. Changecaster and fluxmaster are really bad. They are way to expensive. Flamers are really good. You want at least 6, even better 9. Combine them with changecaster, deepstrike them, cast flickering flames, and play the flames of mutation stratagem, 9D6 autohits at S5 AP-1 D1, and every natural 6 to hit is 1MW in addition. Play warp surge in your opponents turn to give the flamers a 3+ inv. In addition you can play minions of magic on your changecaster to autocast infernal gateway on a 9. Screamers didnt do much in my games, except dying pretty fast.
p5freak wrote: Flamers are really good. You want at least 6, even better 9. Combine them with changecaster, deepstrike them, cast flickering flames, and play the flames of mutation stratagem, 9D6 autohits at S5 AP-1 D1, and every natural 6 to hit is 1MW in addition. Play warp surge in your opponents turn to give the flamers a 3+ inv. In addition you can play minions of magic on your changecaster to autocast infernal gateway on a 9.
I have a full squad of 9 flamers and Changecaster which looks like a good deep strike combo. Has warp surge not been FAQ'd to give a maximum of 4++?
Did you run squads of Pink horrors? I have 75 of them currently and 20 Blues and 20 Brimstones. Wondering if I should just run 3 squads of 25 pinks and keep the Blues in reserve for splitting. Brimstones can be in two small squads holding home objectives.
I second the flamers and changecaster combo with warp surge. Warp surge gives your flamers a 4++ and emperial form or whatever Tzeentch its called gives you +1 to the roll for an effectively 3++ invul. This doesn’t work on pink horrors as they have a 4++ and NOT the +1 on the roll which in my opinion is just bad rule written!!
If you want to take pinks I would suggest one maxed unit too DS in the middle for camping and making it a pain in the a** to take the objective there. In 8th I used 30 pinks and cast flickering flames with a changecaster for 90 S4 shoots with +1 to wound to kill of a unit with marines or the likes of it.
I have never run a chariot and I haven’t really missed them. Exalted flamers were good in 8th, I think the new character rules and assassinate secondary makes them a bit harder to take so maybe chariots might make a bit more sense now cause the mini Lascannon shots are pretty great.
I also run 30 pinks with icon and a herald, and a max squad of flamers and herald too. Which one gets flickering flames will depend on who is targeting what. For their price and stat line tz heralds should really be cast 2/deny 1...I often find myself using the “one Psyker casts again straight away” strat. The “horror unit manifests a power as if you rolled a 9” can be a fun way to push out a guaranteed infernal gateway too
Screamers are a neat little unit who can do work as an escort for a DP. 5 or 6 is probably enough before base sizes start getting in the way. Boon of change can be nice on them, +1A or T are always good and the strength bonus helps against the rare T7 stuff... furies are pretty great this edition too as cheap fast infantry. When I am not running mono tz (very rarely) I take mine as Khorne in a mixed patrol with Nurglings as 3 S5 attacks each is surprisingly ok
Lord of changes are great fun to exalt and roll. Can either be absolute defensive beasts with the right trait/relic/exalted rolls or pump out some fun amounts of MWs. I would love to find a way to fit the relic sword onto one just for fun but haven’t been able to give up the 3++ yet. Maybe I need to get a second one...
Soul grinders are never gonna win you a tournament but are much better now they ignore the move and shoot penalty for heavy weapons. You don’t feel so bad about moving them up the board to crush something and they are a very intimidating model for people who don’t know what they can do.
Keeping a few points in reserve for splitting is never a bad idea but I often find myself spending them on more fun stuff.
Tazberry wrote: Warp surge gives your flamers a 4++ and emperial form or whatever Tzeentch its called gives you +1 to the roll for an effectively 3++ invul. This doesn’t work on pink horrors as they have a 4++ and NOT the +1 on the roll which in my opinion is just bad rule written!!
Cheers for the clarification, I will be using this for certain.
tzurk wrote: Lord of changes are great fun to exalt and roll. Can either be absolute defensive beasts with the right trait/relic/exalted rolls or pump out some fun amounts of MWs. I would love to find a way to fit the relic sword onto one just for fun but haven’t been able to give up the 3++ yet. Maybe I need to get a second one...
Lord of Change looks is really cool and would fit in line with my Tzeentch based army. I've decided that once I've painted the 1900pts I have so far I will treat myself to one. After that I will enjoy what I've got until I have an idea of when the newer codex is coming out.
The “horror unit manifests a power as if you rolled a 9” can be a fun way to push out a guaranteed infernal gateway too
This isn't possible. You might be confused with how they are in Age of Sigmar. In 40k, Pink Horrors only know the Smite power and they only get to roll 1d6 to cast it as part of the 'Magic Made Manifest' rule.
The “horror unit manifests a power as if you rolled a 9” can be a fun way to push out a guaranteed infernal gateway too
This isn't possible. You might be confused with how they are in Age of Sigmar. In 40k, Pink Horrors only know the Smite power and they only get to roll 1d6 to cast it as part of the 'Magic Made Manifest' rule.
Yeah troop horrors cannot do it. Heralds have the horror keyword and can choose infernal gateway - this is what I was referring to. Poor wording I guess 8-)
dan2026 wrote: What Exalted abilities and relics are people taking on their Greater Daemons?
I'm mainly thinking about the Lord of Change and the Great Unclean One.
For the LoC aura of mutability. For GUO take revoltingly resilient.
dan2026 wrote: What Exalted abilities and relics are people taking on their Greater Daemons?
I'm mainly thinking about the Lord of Change and the Great Unclean One.
For the LoC aura of mutability. For GUO take revoltingly resilient.
Aura of Mutability over Architect of Deception?
Maybe I just doubt my ability to roll 6s.
dan2026 wrote: What Exalted abilities and relics are people taking on their Greater Daemons?
I'm mainly thinking about the Lord of Change and the Great Unclean One.
For the LoC aura of mutability. For GUO take revoltingly resilient.
Aura of Mutability over Architect of Deception?
Maybe I just doubt my ability to roll 6s.
There's plenty of good build combos but aura mutability is the most consistent. It's not just a 6+++ FNP it also heals a wound which is what makes the trait so good.
The "unkillable" LoC is a thing for a reason. LoC with impossible robe, -1 dmg warlord trait, and the aura of mutability.
I have had great success with Slaanesh in Crusade play. I know it's not exactly the same as competitive play, but we tend to follow competitive rules (and I don't summon).
Yziel wrote: What are thoughts about the big four FW Daemons now that they no longer cost like a billion points?
I gave mine in the FW preview thread. Basically, they went down to the price they should've been all along, but got nerfed.
Zarakynel is now a normal keeper with:
- +2 wounds (which isn't enough to be meaningful, except in that she can no longer hide behind terrain of any type)
- a 4++ (so 1 free exalted strat, only you had to pay 3CP to bring her in a LOW slot...)
- a "use her LD bubble" 3" larger (derp)
- a sword that still does 3 MW on a 4+ to wound (that's okay I guess)
- Str 7 ... woo
What do you lose?
- Delicate Precision (no RR to wound)
- any option other than the sinistrous hand analogue (which in this case heals d6 instead of D3... meh).
So you pay 3CP and 2x points for an actively worse model than the base on which it is built.
Yziel wrote: What are thoughts about the big four FW Daemons now that they no longer cost like a billion points?
I gave mine in the FW preview thread. Basically, they went down to the price they should've been all along, but got nerfed.
Zarakynel is now a normal keeper with:
- +2 wounds (which isn't enough to be meaningful, except in that she can no longer hide behind terrain of any type)
- a 4++ (so 1 free exalted strat, only you had to pay 3CP to bring her in a LOW slot...)
- a "use her LD bubble" 3" larger (derp)
- a sword that still does 3 MW on a 4+ to wound (that's okay I guess)
- Str 7 ... woo
What do you lose?
- Delicate Precision (no RR to wound)
- any option other than the sinistrous hand analogue (which in this case heals d6 instead of D3... meh).
So you pay 3CP and 2x points for an actively worse model than the base on which it is built.
Yikes, that was the one I was interested in too... I guess I'll buy a third normal Keeper instead to run Chillaxing + Triplets to show my dedication...
I've already got a better KoS for my Crusade army anyways, after two upgrades XD.
My fluff has one Exalted leading 6 keepers (because of course it has to be 6). But I usually only run 3 per game (sometimes squeeze a 4th in as Shalaxi but rarely). I play Crusade almost exclusively with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said, and this is important so I hope it flags it as a new post, I did miss a couple things with Zarakynel.
Her -1 to-hit applies to both shooting and melee (unlike a regular keeper's melee) which doesn't help her survive much but it's something.
She gets 6 attacks with the claws instead of 4. Again, not amazing but at least you get something.
Angrrath got nerfed but I think not in a COMPLETELY bad way. He's basically a Bloodthirster on steroids. Is he worth the price of two bloodthirsters? Maaaybe? I'd say he's at least more durable.
With the new points cost An'ggrath has actually been buffed. He is now very playable. Not likely to win any events, but he is not the huge liability he was before.
artific3r wrote: With the new points cost An'ggrath has actually been buffed. He is now very playable. Not likely to win any events, but he is not the huge liability he was before.
Only playable in points, I own the model and its a /nightmare/ to transport and a hassle to move. Spindly, easily breakable whip and HUGE wings
artific3r wrote: With the new points cost An'ggrath has actually been buffed. He is now very playable. Not likely to win any events, but he is not the huge liability he was before.
Only playable in points, I own the model and its a /nightmare/ to transport and a hassle to move. Spindly, easily breakable whip and HUGE wings
This is why I love the Great Unclean One. Ain't nobody breaking that chunky bastard.
Whether its the plastic or resin one.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I have had great success with Slaanesh in Crusade play. I know it's not exactly the same as competitive play, but we tend to follow competitive rules (and I don't summon).
Some of the tactics may still be applicable...
What were your crusade tactics and build? I'm hoping to get in and on a major slaanesh kick in AoS and would like to mirror that in 40k.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I have had great success with Slaanesh in Crusade play. I know it's not exactly the same as competitive play, but we tend to follow competitive rules (and I don't summon).
Some of the tactics may still be applicable...
What were your crusade tactics and build? I'm hoping to get in and on a major slaanesh kick in AoS and would like to mirror that in 40k.
2 Exalted KOS, both rolling, and the Mirror, for 3 HQ. 2x 10 Daemonettes and 1x20. Costs all 5 starting RP and leaves you with 4 pl left over (I didn't fill it because I wasn't sure what I wanted). Generally, the KOS go in early with the Mirror between them. I typically try to keep the Mirror out of combat, but if I need to charge to get within 6" of the KOS targets, I will. Generally you want to make sure something is left alive to be locked in combat with the KOSs by the Mirror's Horrible Fascination ability, which prevents them from being shot. You can maximize the chances of this in several ways:
1) I gave the Mirror the Forbidden Gem relic. You can use it on characters to stop them from falling back from 12" away, even if they're outside of the 6" horrible fascination range. Characters are also likely to survive the KOS's attacks pretty well (especially if you have another unit to direct those attacks at) and cannot be removed from Morale.
2) I also gave the Mirror the Phantasmagoria spell, to reduce enemy LD and enhance the likelyhood of it functioning. Back in the old days, this was bad, as units could be removed wholesale by Morale which meant ofc they were not locked in combat, but in 9th units are much much less likely to outright disappear simply because of a leadership failure.
3) I ensure the keepers charge multiple units, and sometimes have to spread my attacks carefully. For example, I might charge 2x5 Eldar, but put like 8 attacks on one and 2 attacks on the other. This helps you avoid overkilling a target and having to either consolidate outside of the Mirror's support range or not being able to lock up another enemy at all.
Usually, the Mirror dies pretty soon after, as it's apparent that it's the lynchpin of my list. However, with the frontline units evaporated and my one-use-only Gem expended early in the game, the enemy army is typically exposed at this point. Deep strike the Daemonettes (or run and charge them forwards), and use the keepers like a knife to the gut while the Daemonettes pick and peel at the remaining edges.
Mamon is actually not a bad choice for warlord for a nurgle army, as I see it. He combines reasonable cc ability, resilience, a good ranged attack, the standard DP aura, and is cheap as chips to boot. The best thing is you can hide him behind your other forces. He's not going to set the world alight, but to me he looks like a good warlord choice. Main drawback being he has to take the +1 ld aura trait, which is ok I guess. He's a bit slow too, but can at least advance and fire his auto-hit gun.
Scabieathrax looks to be one of the only playable Exalted Greater Daemon characters. He at least provides a good aura (exhalations of the plague pit) which is welcome bonus that other GUOs can't give you.
Aetaos'rau'keres looks absolutely awful to me. If they'd have kept his staff shooting attack as it was, he'd be more usable. As I read it, he doesn't even get the 3++ anymore.
Zarakynel doesn't really bring anything to the table that multiple KoS can't do better for the points. Some kind of unique aura would have been nice.
Anggrath looks playable, partly because you can get him to fight twice with the khorne strat. Though unfortunately, you won't have a lot of CP to play with.
Uraka is fine, I suppose.
Cor'bax is basically a worse deal than mamon in almost every way, except that he's a decent psyker.
I'm hoping that they might FAQ the exalted characters to be Supreme Commanders? That'd massively alleviate the problems in taking them. As it is, you'd never take one as your warlord, as that means you also have to pay for your army's main detachment.
I plan on running a silly Khorne list this friday and i'm curious on what the hivemind's thoughts are. I'm currently running a lot of bloodletters, some flesh hounds, 2 bloodthirsters and Ann'grath. I am bringing one more HQ but I can't decide between Skarbrand or a DP. For quick reference, Skarbrand is 310 and a DP is 195/200 atm. Which would benefit my list the most? Morale immunity and extra attacks (along with a big beat stick) or rerolling 1s and an extra 100-ish points to play with?
Just a micro-battle report from my game on Friday night, which was referenced earlier this page!
It was Khorne Daemons vs Eldar, the Eldar taking a very classic 8th ed list of guardians, dark reapers, Eldrad and Shining spears, along with some other stuff. I took Ann'grath, 2 Bloodthirsters, a DP, a bunch of bloodletters, and a spined chaos beast along with a MSU of hounds and a skull cannon.
Ann'grath survived an entire turn of sustained fire from the Eldar player and even managed to kill a unit before he died, and promptly exploded dealing about 8 additional mortal wounds to their army! At 550 points i'd say he's well worth the investment, just as a fire magnet alone.
The Spined Chaos Beast from FW Legends is surprisingly good! Fast and extremely high damage, even if it isn't the most durable thing on earth. Pulled its weight, and caught my opponent totally off guard!
And unsurprisingly, the Bloodletter Bomb is alive and well, as it /shredded/ what they got in with.
All in all, Khorne Demons seem to be at least pretty nice this edition, although it requires spamming of BTs and Letters sadly.
vaklor4 wrote: Just a micro-battle report from my game on Friday night, which was referenced earlier this page!
It was Khorne Daemons vs Eldar, the Eldar taking a very classic 8th ed list of guardians, dark reapers, Eldrad and Shining spears, along with some other stuff. I took Ann'grath, 2 Bloodthirsters, a DP, a bunch of bloodletters, and a spined chaos beast along with a MSU of hounds and a skull cannon.
Ann'grath survived an entire turn of sustained fire from the Eldar player and even managed to kill a unit before he died, and promptly exploded dealing about 8 additional mortal wounds to their army! At 550 points i'd say he's well worth the investment, just as a fire magnet alone.
The Spined Chaos Beast from FW Legends is surprisingly good! Fast and extremely high damage, even if it isn't the most durable thing on earth. Pulled its weight, and caught my opponent totally off guard!
And unsurprisingly, the Bloodletter Bomb is alive and well, as it /shredded/ what they got in with.
All in all, Khorne Demons seem to be at least pretty nice this edition, although it requires spamming of BTs and Letters sadly.
Mastering Khorne will be a challenge with new players and a lot of thinking out of the box for a lot of players. A buddy of mine is working on a list with 3 Bloodthirsters and 125 bloodletters. Me I just looking for a lot of fun.
vaklor4 wrote: Just a micro-battle report from my game on Friday night, which was referenced earlier this page!
It was Khorne Daemons vs Eldar, the Eldar taking a very classic 8th ed list of guardians, dark reapers, Eldrad and Shining spears, along with some other stuff. I took Ann'grath, 2 Bloodthirsters, a DP, a bunch of bloodletters, and a spined chaos beast along with a MSU of hounds and a skull cannon.
Ann'grath survived an entire turn of sustained fire from the Eldar player and even managed to kill a unit before he died, and promptly exploded dealing about 8 additional mortal wounds to their army! At 550 points i'd say he's well worth the investment, just as a fire magnet alone.
The Spined Chaos Beast from FW Legends is surprisingly good! Fast and extremely high damage, even if it isn't the most durable thing on earth. Pulled its weight, and caught my opponent totally off guard!
And unsurprisingly, the Bloodletter Bomb is alive and well, as it /shredded/ what they got in with.
All in all, Khorne Demons seem to be at least pretty nice this edition, although it requires spamming of BTs and Letters sadly.
Mastering Khorne will be a challenge with new players and a lot of thinking out of the box for a lot of players. A buddy of mine is working on a list with 3 Bloodthirsters and 125 bloodletters. Me I just looking for a lot of fun.
In my play tests, 3-4 blood thirsters is enough threat saturation to be meaningful, but it's all about CP at that point. My best suggestion for BL spam at this point is to do blocks of 20 to preserve CP, since 60 bloodletters deepstriked with banners is 6 CP, while 3 blocks of 20 is only 5.
Troops
30x Bloodletters with Banner of Blood (bloodletters bomb) (daemonic icon and instrument)
15x Bloodletters (daemonic icon and instrument)
15x Bloodletters (daemonic icon and instrument)
Elite
6x Bloodcrushers (daemonic icon and instrument)
Fast
6x Flesh Hounds
6x Flesh Hounds
Heavy
2x Giant Chaos Spawns (because i love those models)
Troops
30x Bloodletters with Banner of Blood (bloodletters bomb) (daemonic icon and instrument)
15x Bloodletters (daemonic icon and instrument)
15x Bloodletters (daemonic icon and instrument)
Elite
6x Bloodcrushers (daemonic icon and instrument)
Fast
6x Flesh Hounds
6x Flesh Hounds
Heavy
2x Giant Chaos Spawns (because i love those models)
Just my personal opinion, i'd drop those down to squads of 10 bloodletteers, and use those 80 points towards somethin like more bloodcrushers. I wouldnt worry too much about blast on the bloodcrushers, because you REALLY want them to have a big squad for that amazing stratagem they got in engine war. Also Giant Chaos Spawns look fun, try em for sure!
Techpriest_ wrote:Just an FYI, you guys win the oldest Codex award:
I saw that they listed one of the Fantasy End Times campaign books from 1605 Jan 1. I'm guessing the stress of zero work breaks and slave driving has staff cracking for Amazon, particularly as Christmas time hits.
For Slaanesh's Contorted Epitome, is Slothful Claws worth it? At 8 attacks base it seems like it'd get a /lot/ more use out of it than a regular or even chariot herald.
For people who don't know,the slothful claws relic increases the strength and AP of their basic claw attack by 1 (to 6 and -2 respectively), and increase the -4 rend chances from 6s to 4s
vaklor4 wrote: For Slaanesh's Contorted Epitome, is Slothful Claws worth it? At 8 attacks base it seems like it'd get a /lot/ more use out of it than a regular or even chariot herald.
For people who don't know,the slothful claws relic increases the strength and AP of their basic claw attack by 1 (to 6 and -2 respectively), and increase the -4 rend chances from 6s to 4s
Has the Epitome been changed? It used to be 2 attacks base, then 8 extra attacks with the Heralds' claws. Meaning that, if replaced with Slothful Claws, you wouldn't get the eight extra.
vaklor4 wrote: For Slaanesh's Contorted Epitome, is Slothful Claws worth it? At 8 attacks base it seems like it'd get a /lot/ more use out of it than a regular or even chariot herald.
For people who don't know,the slothful claws relic increases the strength and AP of their basic claw attack by 1 (to 6 and -2 respectively), and increase the -4 rend chances from 6s to 4s
Has the Epitome been changed? It used to be 2 attacks base, then 8 extra attacks with the Heralds' claws. Meaning that, if replaced with Slothful Claws, you wouldn't get the eight extra.
You got it backwards, it makes 8 attacks with its claws and then 2 extra attacks with the mirror's coils
vaklor4 wrote: For Slaanesh's Contorted Epitome, is Slothful Claws worth it? At 8 attacks base it seems like it'd get a /lot/ more use out of it than a regular or even chariot herald.
For people who don't know,the slothful claws relic increases the strength and AP of their basic claw attack by 1 (to 6 and -2 respectively), and increase the -4 rend chances from 6s to 4s
Has the Epitome been changed? It used to be 2 attacks base, then 8 extra attacks with the Heralds' claws. Meaning that, if replaced with Slothful Claws, you wouldn't get the eight extra.
You got it backwards, it makes 8 attacks with its claws and then 2 extra attacks with the mirror's coils
Okay, so it has been changed.
When it originally came out, it was two attacks base, and got eight extra.
Of all of the lists, I liked this one the best, as it's a monster-mash, filled with big stompy models. I understand this may not be the most competitive list in the world, but I am intrigued by the gameplay choices it forces, and I'd love to hear your opinions, so I can better understand how to play something like this.
My questions:
1. Which psychic powers to take on each, and why, given the rules about duplication of powers. What role does this give each of the Greater Daemons?
2. Which warlord trait(s) would you lean into for most match-ups?
3. Given the above two, are there instances where you would select the exalted ability, as opposed to rolling randomly for two? Again, why, and what role does this allow each of the GDs to take on?
Thanks in advance, I'm genuinely interested in any and all responses that aren't 'That list is crap, isn't competitive, and you should play something else'.
I'll answer the third question because that one's easy for me after play testing.
Of the greater demons, the Lord of Change is generally the only one of the 4 that you wanna choose your power on, if only because a few of them are very match up reliant.
The other 3 can very much just be rolled for, unless you have an incredibly specific game plan. 2 buffs that are ok are in my opinion better than picking the very best one, and you have the added benefit of being able to double up on them, where picking has to be unique entirely each time.
If you DO pick on the Great Unclean One though, pick the 4+ FNP. It's absolutely bonkers good and easily the best.
For the KoS, both the -1 to wound from ranged and the 4++ are great. Depending on the match up you may want to pick either or.
Just a random idea of dodging the metagame that push towards multiple dmg weapons and high strenght AT aswell.
I know most established competetive list abuse exaltation of greater daemons (slaneesh triple keeper particulary but some nurgle/tzeentch mixes aswell).
What if we only pick heroes that benefit from lookout sir rule and then, just swarm the board with the absurd amount of infantry to make those multimelta devastators cry ?
Here is the list:
You can run it as daemons batalion and thousand sons outrider or you can go with double daemons patrol , you loose 2cp but gain slaneesh locus. I prefer batalion but its up to you:
Syll’esske
Uraka the warfiend
Changecaster as warlord with daemon spark
30 daemonnets with icon and instrument
2x 30 daemonnets with icon
30 pink horrors
20 bloodletters with icon and banner of 3d6 charge
Cult of magic
Ahriman
Daemon prince of tzeentch
Wings, talons
3x1 chaos spawn
Its kinda like old plaguebearrers spam list with all the heroes hiding behind the wall of bodies but since you cant stack modifiers you pick more bodies of cheaper daemons that can actually deal significant amount of damage instead of just being bodies.
We have deepstriking letterbomb that provide los for slingshotted uraka,
we have pinkhorror bomb under TSDP, who does a lot of mortal wounds and is ready to heroic intervenue if you charge them
We have plenty of daemonetts under syllesske buffs , if they keep their numbers they can eat anything on charge.
I want to swarm the board, and kill stuff asap with my high burst damage.
What are your thoughts ?
I played lists like this throughout 8th edition. They were excellent semi-competitive lists. Not going to win any major events, but formidable enough to give any opponent, casual or competitive, a good fight.
I imagine this style of list would continue to do well in 9th where everyone's teching to kill intercessors and gravis.
Jabberscythe wrote: Just a random idea of dodging the metagame that push towards multiple dmg weapons and high strenght AT aswell.
I know most established competetive list abuse exaltation of greater daemons (slaneesh triple keeper particulary but some nurgle/tzeentch mixes aswell).
What if we only pick heroes that benefit from lookout sir rule and then, just swarm the board with the absurd amount of infantry to make those multimelta devastators cry ?
Here is the list:
You can run it as daemons batalion and thousand sons outrider or you can go with double daemons patrol , you loose 2cp but gain slaneesh locus. I prefer batalion but its up to you:
Syll’esske
Uraka the warfiend
Changecaster as warlord with daemon spark
30 daemonnets with icon and instrument
2x 30 daemonnets with icon
30 pink horrors
20 bloodletters with icon and banner of 3d6 charge
Cult of magic
Ahriman
Daemon prince of tzeentch
Wings, talons
3x1 chaos spawn
Its kinda like old plaguebearrers spam list with all the heroes hiding behind the wall of bodies but since you cant stack modifiers you pick more bodies of cheaper daemons that can actually deal significant amount of damage instead of just being bodies.
We have deepstriking letterbomb that provide los for slingshotted uraka,
we have pinkhorror bomb under TSDP, who does a lot of mortal wounds and is ready to heroic intervenue if you charge them
We have plenty of daemonetts under syllesske buffs , if they keep their numbers they can eat anything on charge.
I want to swarm the board, and kill stuff asap with my high burst damage.
What are your thoughts ?
With 90 (NINETY!) Daemonettes, I would absolutely spend the 2 CP opportunity cost for the ability to advance and charge with all those slicey dicey daemon women. I was gonna say think about swapping in the Contorted Epitome for trapping stuff in combat, but after rereading Sylleske I’d say that’s the right call. Overall I highly approve and I like the list a lot. I’d go farther than the previous poster and say that this is better than semi competitive and has some real legs.
I’ve been theory crafting something very similar in overall concept but instead of going Tzeentch and slaanesh I’ve gone with Tzeentch and Nurgle (since most of my Daemons collection was from abusing screamer star and plague drone star in 7th Ed ). It’s got the same 30 man pink blob and 20 man bloodletter bomb for the utility they provide, but beasts, nurglings and the now-staple Unkillable Big Bird for mortal woundage. Very similar TSons detachment to boot. Have look and let me know what you think of you will:
Got this list idea after listening and reading about a couple cool Daemon Heavy (my one true 40k love) lists that appeared on Goonhammer and the Art of War podcast. The research I did inspired me to want to hybridize TJ Lannigans Magnus and Big Bird list with the Big Bird and Beasts of Nurgle lists that have seen some tournament success. To that end I kitted out a DP to be “Mini Mags” with +2 to cast and good targeted and splash MW output. The idea being that it hangs out amongst the horrors and beasts with character protection, moves + advances ahead of the lines to cast all his powers (probably spending 1 CP often to cast three), and then gets warptimed back into the pocket of horrors/ beasts. Until it’s time for the DP to go punch an opportune target anyway. Big bird and Ahriman contribute to the MW output with smites and targeted MW powers, beasts take midfield with herald support and the horrors do their best to clear screens, tarpit, hold objectives and generally be annoying with some points left over for splitting. One unit of bloodletters to drop in and flip an objective or kill something that is extra threatening to the beasts and Big Bird. Nurglings gonna Nurgling. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Just to quickly echo @ astro_nomicon’s feedback to @ Jabberscythe, and add that it’d be worth juggling a Horror or two to make those three Daemonette hordes all have an Instrument - sixty melee specialists should not be scrimping on an upgrade that’s the difference in falling short of a charge by 2”
My most recent bookmarks for codices have gone defunct and shut down.
Does anyone have a link to a new MEGA or VK with the codices?
DM me here, or at warhammer.resources@gmail.com
While the new disgustingly resilient works real nice on plague marines, with their base 2w stats, it seems like a kick in the guts to nurgle daemons right?
I had a plan to put together a blob of 30 plaguebearers with a really unique look, but I think I'll hold fire until the new codex drops as at the moment they look like trash. Talk about going from hero to zero!
So I have noticed in several tourney meta-breakdowns that Daemons of Chaos are doing really well, like top three well. What's up with that? Is it a specific skew build?
NinthMusketeer wrote: So I have noticed in several tourney meta-breakdowns that Daemons of Chaos are doing really well, like top three well. What's up with that? Is it a specific skew build?
There’s definitely a few themes to the Daemons builds that are taking down tourneys but the lists are actually pretty surprisingly diverse. From what I’ve been reading I’d say the two most prevalent themes would be “All of the Keepers + support” and “Unkillable Big Bird with Beasts + support”. The support is where a lot of the flavor comes in and there’s plenty to pick from in the daemons codex and a bewildering amount of options if you’re down to soup with any flavor of chaos marines. Bloodletters, Horrors, Flamers of both varieties, Screamers, Fiends, Daemonettes, Furies have all had showings at lists that went 4-0 or better in bigger tourneys. There was one that I saw got first at a GT that I thought was super neat. It was Big Bird, Magnus, Ahriman, a DP, 30 horrors (with 50 points left for splitting) and then a bunch of nurglings. Just a ton of MW output with good screening and enough damage from the cc potential of all the characters and horrors shooting to round it out.
Slaanesh daemons, nurglings, and Exalted Lords of Change have been really strong for a long time. Slaanesh daemons in particular are fast, melee blenders which means they're great at playing objectives. They are also generally inefficient for most armies to kill since everyone's packing high AP, anti-space marine weapons.
Goonhammer has a series of articles called Competitive Innovations in 9th where they go over the top 4 lists from recent tourneys. Take a breeze through those of you want to see some more competitive daemons/chaos soup lists.
Anyone want to share any wishlisting/ speculation for the next codex (whenever it comes)? Not tactics strictly speaking I know, I hope it's alright to post here. In no particular order:
NURGLE:
-Rotigus buffed (in line with exalted GDs)
-GUOs bilesword upped to d3+3 damage
-Disgustingly resilient change?
-Hopefully improved relics and warlord traits
-Some way of improving AP? Maybe virulent blessing reworked to do this
KHORNE:
-Skarbrand buffed (in line with exalted GDs)
-Skulltaker improved hopefully
-Improved warlord traits
TZEENTCH:
-Fateweaver buffed (in line with exalted GDs)
-Psychic discipline substantially improved
-Blue flame attack of exalted flamer upped to flat 3 damage
-Blue/brimstone horrors reworked.
SLAANESH:
-Actually already in really good shape. Can't think of too many tweaks necessary (maybe some nerfs, in fact).
UNDIVIDED/ <ALLEGIANCE>
- Belakor able to be taken in a detachment without losing mono faction loci
-Soul grinder upped to ws and bs 3+
What the hell are deamons supposed to do against the nightbringer? It literally counters all our defenses and can't be taken down in return. Anyone have any tips against the thing? And yes, I already tried he avoid it strategy.
That's a good question. 12 S7 attacks ignoring both our invulns and our FNPs means we can't drown it in bodies like we normally do. Necrodermis + living metal means we can't just blow it up with bloodletters or keepers. If it stands at the center of the map it can basically force us to deal with it.
Obviously we'll need to smite it with the Exalted LoC and punch it with one of our many melee units. The tricky part is dealing 3 wounds in the shooting phase.
A Tzeentch flamer bomb could do the trick. Six deep striking flamers buffed with flickering flames should do just over 3 wounds to a Nightbringer.
You're right, my bad. Both attack profiles ignore FNPs but only the strong profile ignores invulns. That seems a lot less scary now that I look at it. It will take him several turns to chew through a max unit plaguebearers, even ignoring FNPs.
Still I think flamers are one of our best options for alpha striking him off the board before he does anything.
buddha wrote: What the hell are deamons supposed to do against the nightbringer? It literally counters all our defenses and can't be taken down in return. Anyone have any tips against the thing? And yes, I already tried he avoid it strategy.
My regular opponent plays Necrons and he has been running the Nightbringer for a while (it was good in 8th edition too).
Here is how I deal with it:
As Tzeentch - Splitting Horrors to tie it up (it averages killing 10 models per round of combat). Kill it over the three phases - psychic, shooting, and combat.
As Slaanesh - Allow it to charge you and shut it down with the forbidden gem. You can do 3 wounds in combat in their turn, then psychic and combat in your turn.
As Nurgle - I've had a lot of success with tying it up with 9xNurglings (use Nurgling Infestation for 1CP to help). They are good enough to absorb it's punishment. This is more tricky for Nurgle, but psychic and combat at the winners.
As Khorne - Uh, this is the hardest as Khorne doesn't have psychic to back him up. Rather rely on the shooting you have (skull cannons, whips from BTs), the mortal wound strat from Blood Crushers in the charge phase, and good old combat.
In addition, anything that causes a -1 to hit in combat hurts the Nightbringers damage output significantly (so Plague Bearers, Miasma of Pestilence, Symphony of Pain, The Masque of Slaanesh's Locus of Beguilement, Tzeentch Loci, etc). I'm sure you can find other debuffs that can help you fight the good fight.
The best thing to keep in mind is that the Nightbringer is best dealt with over two or more turns. Our troops are cheap enough that they can tie it up for long enough for the rest of your army to do damage in other phases.
Daemons are looking pretty good atm so most of this is more of a wishlist than any real expectation of change in our next codex.
For Tzeentch, I agree that the Exalted Flamer's blue flame going to a flat damage 3 would be great - or keeping current profile and being changed to Assault.
Burning Chariots need a bit of help - the EF on top hits worse from his chariot than on foot. It is probably too much wishful thinking but an extra point of T would be wonderful too to make HBs wound on 5s.
LoC, Flamers and Pinks are all very good atm.
My screamers still get a lot of play anyway but a 3+ WS would be cake on top and maybe not so out of the realm of possibility with daemon engines going to 3s as well. This would help make them more self sufficient as I really only use them as a bodyguard for a flying DP to grab the reroll 1s to hit aura, and since the advent of blast that has limited them to a single unit of 5.
I would love heralds and tzeentch DPs to go up to cast 2/deny 1. It feels like we are paying a heap of points atm for a company commander equivalent (can disc give +1T?) and it would open up a lot of potential combos of stacking buffs/smites/offensive spells on top of each other.
I am enjoying running my soul grinder in friendly games but he would similarly benefit from going to WS/BS 3+.
I would love for blues and potentially brims to get a degraded shooting profile like they do in AoS - something like 5+ BS and S:user.
Don't play much outside of tz but I think Khorne needs some love too.
Bloodletters should be able to fight twice, as melee is the absolutely only thing that they can do. Also, Bloodthirsters should get at least some of the cool abilities and command abilities that they get in AOS.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Bloodletters should be able to fight twice, as melee is the absolutely only thing that they can do. Also, Bloodthirsters should get at least some of the cool abilities and command abilities that they get in AOS.
I saw nothing to change for the Bloodletters but when I look the daemonettes, they should bring the pts to 7 or give a T4 to keep them at 8 pts
ArcaneHorror wrote: Bloodletters should be able to fight twice, as melee is the absolutely only thing that they can do. Also, Bloodthirsters should get at least some of the cool abilities and command abilities that they get in AOS.
I saw nothing to change for the Bloodletters but when I look the daemonettes, they should bring the pts to 7 or give a T4 to keep them at 8 pts
if anyone should fight twice it should be slaanesh, bloodletters need to go back to t4 and get their 3+ armor back
Anyone thought about slotting The New One True Morty into Daemons lists?? It seems pretty doable to make a threat overload/defensive profile overload board control list with him at the center to me. Nothing too world shaking at all, just Morty plus the usual suspects from the daemons codex and it looks properly terrible to try to deal with.
I kinda like the look of this list despite its glaring lack of any shooting
Just pure threat overload. The three biggest parts of the list (Morty, Big Bird and Beasts) all pretty much need the same band of weapon profiles to tackle efficiently and none of em go down remotely easy. On top of that, ignore any one of those and they’re gonna get they’re points back and more. Morty probably rolls with Miasma for -1 to hit and the power that gives you bonus range (up to 12”) on whichever plague company aura you choose. Most games it will be the droning (half movement for all units within range) but in some cases it could be gloaming bloat (no overwatch or rerolls to hit or wound for units in range). Whichever way you go, projecting a 12” bubble of that on one of the toughest models in the game will really hamstring a lot of lists.
Weirdly enough I think the biggest question about this list is whether to take Virulent Blessing or Fleshy Abundance on the Poxbringer. Virulent can make the Beasts hit a fair bit harder but Fleshy Abundance could well put Morty over the top. You already get back 1 wound a turn from Slimy the Snail as long as Morty is w/in 7” but abundance could add D3 wounds a turn on top of that.
So at the moment I'm looking at ways to incorporate some Tzeench Daemons into my Thousand Sons force (blog in my sig) but even at 2k it does seem overly difficult.
Current TS list:
Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince
10x Rubrics
10x Rubrics
5x Rubrics
5x Scarab Terminators
Helbrute
Helbrute
I have the following Daemons at my disposal
Lord of Change/Fateweaver
10x Horrors
3x Screamers
6x Flamers
Exalted Flamer*
Herald of Tzeench *
*Either of which can be placed on a chariot.
I'm thinking of just adding a Patrol with the LoC, Horrors and Flamers. I mainly just want the LoC in my list, but without the boost given by a Herald, Horrors don't actually look that threatening. Is it worth getting another SC box to boost the Horrors up to 20 and the Screamers up to 6?
Valkyrie wrote: So at the moment I'm looking at ways to incorporate some Tzeench Daemons into my Thousand Sons force (blog in my sig) but even at 2k it does seem overly difficult.
Current TS list:
Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince
10x Rubrics
10x Rubrics
5x Rubrics
5x Scarab Terminators
Helbrute
Helbrute
I have the following Daemons at my disposal
Lord of Change/Fateweaver
10x Horrors
3x Screamers
6x Flamers
Exalted Flamer*
Herald of Tzeench *
*Either of which can be placed on a chariot.
I'm thinking of just adding a Patrol with the LoC, Horrors and Flamers. I mainly just want the LoC in my list, but without the boost given by a Herald, Horrors don't actually look that threatening. Is it worth getting another SC box to boost the Horrors up to 20 and the Screamers up to 6?
Hello brother in the way of all things Just as Planned. When I’m writing lists it’s most often fielding the inverse of what you’re looking to build (Daemons with a splash of TSons), but I may have some insight for you. From what I can tell you absolutely won’t regret fielding a LoC for the time being. The most popular build right now is to take him as your warlord with ephemeral form (since daemons can’t add warlord traits but your TSons can) with the impossible robe and exalted greater daemon trait Aura of Mutability. This nets you -1 damage, a 3++, and a 6+ FNP that also regains you wounds. This combo of the BiG BiRd is regarded as one of the most unkillable models in 40k currently and will always be worth its points between its utility and mortal wound output.
Your instincts about horrors are pretty accurate. They can absolutely be a fantastic addition to a list as chaff clearers/objective holders/tarpit-screen but they need support to work. As damage dealers, a Tzeentch Herald and flickering flames are basically mandatory to make them function, and as such you pretty much need to run a full blob of 30 to make the investment worth it. Expensive? Yes. But 90 S4 shots with +1 to wound is nothing to scoff at, plus they provide a lot of board control on top of that as they are relatively durable for the price.
I don’t have much experience with flamers or screamers in this edition, but both seem to be decent utility units depending on how you use them in the context of your list.
Basically if you want to add a patrol of Tzeentch daemons to your TSons, it would be hard to go wrong with a LoC, foot herald, and 30 horrors. Sprinkle in screamers/flamers to taste or as points allow. Big Bird is one of the best units in the game now and a big blob of horrors brings a few things to the table the really shore up TSons weaknesses (namely board control and high volume shooting)
As someone new to daemons I have a basic question- Is it better to have 2 units of 15 basic daemons or merge them into 1 unit of 30? I like that you get something special for having 20+ but it just seems like at that number of models the unit becomes unwieldy.
As a side question when does a banner become cost efficient in terms of unit size?
Thanks for any advice. If it makes a difference I'm looking at using daemonettes.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: As someone new to daemons I have a basic question- Is it better to have 2 units of 15 basic daemons or merge them into 1 unit of 30? I like that you get something special for having 20+ but it just seems like at that number of models the unit becomes unwieldy.
As a side question when does a banner become cost efficient in terms of unit size?
Thanks for any advice. If it makes a difference I'm looking at using daemonettes.
That's incorrect. A unit of 15-20 is excellent because it often gives you enough killing power to be a threat while saving you some points. In particular units of 20 are great because they're the max output unit you can make while still being able to Denizens of the Warp for 1CP.
Look at any of the top placing daemon lists throughout 8th and 9th edition and you'll find plenty of instances of 15-25 daemons. Max units of 30 daemons is actually the rarest I've seen among competitive lists (usually only reserved for troop spam lists) because you usually don't need a full unit to perform well at a particular role.
Ultimately the best squad size is going to depend on the rest of your list and what role you need from your daemonettes.
FYI, Mitch Byrne's 1st place Slaanesh list from Objective Secured Perth GT last week had 2x20 daemonettes. 3x20 daemonettes has also been very common this edition.
artific3r wrote: That's incorrect. A unit of 15-20 is excellent because it often gives you enough killing power to be a threat while saving you some points. In particular units of 20 are great because they're the max output unit you can make while still being able to Denizens of the Warp for 1CP.
Look at any of the top placing daemon lists throughout 8th and 9th edition and you'll find plenty of instances of 15-25 daemons. Max units of 30 daemons is actually the rarest I've seen among competitive lists (usually only reserved for troop spam lists) because you usually don't need a full unit to perform well at a particular role.
Ultimately the best squad size is going to depend on the rest of your list and what role you need from your daemonettes.
FYI, Mitch Byrne's 1st place Slaanesh list from Objective Secured Perth GT last week had 2x20 daemonettes. 3x20 daemonettes has also been very common this edition.
By experience (im a monokhorne player and that show my bias) and where i was gaming (the didnt played since the fuckery started), I didnt see a lot of players playing around 20 daemons but i see a lot of fire power and soup that made the +/- 20 not viable.
Im waiting 9ed to change my mind/list/style of play and see how the +1 bonus we want with 20 guys will still be the backbone of the troops or it will have enough goodies to work without it.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Does anyone know the math behind when an Icon is cost effective (in terms of either points invested in a unit or the number of models in the unit)?
It depends is the answer.
An icon has a 1/6 chance of getting models back, which is improved by a few units.
When you do get it off, you get d6 models back.
So by my reconing the math works out that, on average, you need to take 3 morale tests before you recover it's value in points - average return on the icon per turn is avg of d6 x value of model x probability to occur. In short, 3.5 x 9 (plague bearers) / 6 = 5.25 points back per Morale check.
In my experience amd opinion they are no longer worth it outside of needing them for some strats.
It also changes a failed morale test into a passed morale test so you should facture in the prevented loss of 1 guaranteed model + any attrition losses (if you took enough casualties to fail even on a 1 normally)
Another question that I thought that I'd ask here before going to YMtC. If I summon a unit of daemons do they benefit from my Legion's rule?
For example: If I had a Red Corsairs detachment and summoned a unit of bloodletters would they be allowed to advance and then charge without resorting to any rule other than the Legion rule?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Another question that I thought that I'd ask here before going to YMtC. If I summon a unit of daemons do they benefit from my Legion's rule?
For example: If I had a Red Corsairs detachment and summoned a unit of bloodletters would they be allowed to advance and then charge without resorting to any rule other than the Legion rule?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Another question that I thought that I'd ask here before going to YMtC. If I summon a unit of daemons do they benefit from my Legion's rule?
For example: If I had a Red Corsairs detachment and summoned a unit of bloodletters would they be allowed to advance and then charge without resorting to any rule other than the Legion rule?
Not even in the slightest. They get no Subfaction traits, as they're not part of any detachment.
Are there any competitive builds making the rounds that go very Tzeentch heavy? Not a mono-God army, but at least 1-2 detachments of Tzeentch as its core?
I am trying to wrap my head around how Daemonic Ritual works. I understand the basics: You roll up to three dice and can summon a unit with a power level equal to or less than the total rolled.
What I don't understand is how reinforcement points work in conjunction with power level.
Let's say I roll a 8 with two dice and want to summon a unit of Plaguebearers. Can I then choose a number between 1-20 Plaguebearers depending on the amount of reinforcement points i have avaliable?
I am trying to wrap my head around how Daemonic Ritual works. I understand the basics: You roll up to three dice and can summon a unit with a power level equal to or less than the total rolled.
What I don't understand is how reinforcement points work in conjunction with power level.
Let's say I roll a 8 with two dice and want to summon a unit of Plaguebearers. Can I then choose a number between 1-20 Plaguebearers depending on the amount of reinforcement points i have avaliable?
No. You would be able to summon a unit up to power level 8. 10 Plaguebearers is 5PL, and 20 Plaguebearers is 10PL.
Let's say you have 135 Reinforcement Points and attempt to summon. You roll an 11. You can then summon a unit of up to 20 Plaguebearers (10PL). However, you must pay actual points for the unit you summon. You can thus summon 15 Plaguebearers OR 13 Plaguebearers with an icon, or 13 with a musician, or 12 with both icon and musician. You have then spent those 135 Reinforcement Points (or 133, or whatever, depending on actual choice) and cannot spend those Reinforcement Points on anything else.
If you had chosen to summon only 10 Plaguebearers with no options, that would cost 90 Reinforcement Points and you would have 45 remaining (which could be spent on say, a Beast of Nurgle, but that's about it that comes in units that cost 45 points or less)
To sum it up: PL determines how large of a unit you can summon, Reinforcement Points determines the actual size of the unit + any options.
I have two more questions regarding the stratagems in the Engine War Book.
Nurgling Infestation - Say I have a unit of 5 nurglings. 4 die to shooting. I use this strat and return two.
In the morale phase, I now have three nurglings left. Would I be at -2 or -4 for the morale test?
Acidic Slobber - Exactly when can I use this strat. Can i use it after I have made my hit rolls since that is the fight phase?
I have two more questions regarding the stratagems in the Engine War Book.
Nurgling Infestation - Say I have a unit of 5 nurglings. 4 die to shooting. I use this strat and return two.
In the morale phase, I now have three nurglings left. Would I be at -2 or -4 for the morale test?
Acidic Slobber - Exactly when can I use this strat. Can i use it after I have made my hit rolls since that is the fight phase?
Nurgling Infestation = -4, because you lost 4 bases from that unit this turn.
Acidic Slobber = Huh, yes, I suppose you can use it at any time during the Fight Phase. You could also theoretically do it after you've made your wound rolls I guess? Roll a bunch of 6s and go, "oh, I use Acidic Slobber!". Maybe that wouldn't work, because you'd have to at least use the Stratagem before making the wound rolls? Poorly worded.
4++, -1 to wound vs ranged attacks, -1 to be hit period, cannot re-roll to hit against him.
+4s -4ap D3+3 with ignore invuln saves on the sword, and an alternate weaker sweep attack.
hopefully he will stop shutting off loci for taking him.
He is looking pretty beastly. I am wondering if Belakor is going to get a special rule kind of like "dynastic agents" for necrons that allow him to be included in any chaos army without breaking army rules up. He really should be allowed.
Need to see his other stats and whether he is classed as a supreme commander or superheavy before deciding how he would fit in a list. But yeah I agree, he is looking very nifty right now. And of course, he is also an awesome looking model too. A very good centerpiece model to have.
Sigh, I am sad that I have khorne, tzeenth and nurgle daemons, but the one set of daemons I do not have is slanaash and yet, they are the best daemons to have right now... lol
Okay so ended up buying(well will buy) whole bunch of tzeentch daemons for AOS. Have some(very few) khorne and slaanesh daemons. Anyway started thinking this might be getting me close to fielding daemon army for 40k as well...
So how are tzeentch daemons? Would I be walking carpet with tzeentch daemons? (well that would be ironic. In AOS tzeentch is likely best chaos faction).
I will have about this:
about 110 Horrors Pink 54/ blue 26 /brim 30
Kairos
6 kpl screamers
2 herald
Changeling
9 flamers
3 exalted flamers
3 burning chariot with regular flamers
Ahriman(wonder what I'll be using this for...)
2 daemon princes, soul grinder, skulltaker, about 20 bloodletters, 3 or 6 bloodcrushers, masque, 20 daemonettes, 5 seekers for rest of daemons what I have. Oh and old be'lakor.
tneva82 wrote: Okay so ended up buying(well will buy) whole bunch of tzeentch daemons for AOS. Have some(very few) khorne and slaanesh daemons. Anyway started thinking this might be getting me close to fielding daemon army for 40k as well...
So how are tzeentch daemons? Would I be walking carpet with tzeentch daemons? (well that would be ironic. In AOS tzeentch is likely best chaos faction).
I will have about this:
about 110 Horrors Pink 54/ blue 26 /brim 30
Kairos
6 kpl screamers
2 herald
Changeling
9 flamers
3 exalted flamers
3 burning chariot with regular flamers
Ahriman(wonder what I'll be using this for...)
2 daemon princes, soul grinder, skulltaker, about 20 bloodletters, 3 or 6 bloodcrushers, masque, 20 daemonettes, 5 seekers for rest of daemons what I have. Oh and old be'lakor.
How close to 2k force this leads me to?
How close to 2k force this leads me to? A pretty decent demon backbone army if you ask me...
Demons right now aren't in a good place for mono-factions, except if you want to go hog wild with mono-slaanesh.
As for troops, in 9th I really like nurglings but my "1b" favorite is Horrors due to the shear firepower of a large blob and split opportunities.
'letter bombs with banner+ DS are still good.
20 demonettes with slaanesh hareld is good.
Another good unit that I've had surprising good success in 9th is Tz herald + flamers deepstriking. herald gives flamers +1 STR and casts flickering flames on flamers for +1 wound. Then, there's a CP in shooting phase that gives flamers mortal wounds on unmodified 6s. 9D6 STR5, +1 wound and 1 mortal on natural 6s is nothing to sneeze against. Surprisingly, it's a decent unit to choose for that "While We Stand" secondary.
Karios is decent, but probably better to proxy him for an Exalted LOC (choose the FNP exalted power! Because if you make a FNP, you GAIN wounds at the end of phase for each saved wound) with impossible rob for 3++.
As for Ahriman and the 2 DP, that's a good option for a CSM or (my preference) Thousand Sons detachment. Easy spammed smite, Death Hex and Prescience are really powerful in a majority Demon list. (Demon loci isn't all that great, outside of mono-Slaanesh imo).
Exalted Flamers are needed if you need the lascannon punch.
I'm not a fan of the Chariots though.
New be'lakor seems appealing, but I want to see his entire rules.
So let's say you're running that Slaanesh Daemons list, you've got your 4 Keepers of Secrets and your Contorted Epitome but what is best to fill out the rest with?
I know the winning list went 3 min squads of Daemonettes and 3 squads of 5 fiends but then you miss out on the 3rd cool Slaanesh character. If you went 6 squads of min Daemonettes, 2 squads of 2 fiends and 1 squad of 1 fiend in order to fit Syll'Esske in, are you gonna miss those 10 fiends that much? You've got 3 more units of obsec and a really awesome extra character but would the fiends dying easier be something that'll come to bite you in the ass?
I'm talking proper competitive lists here because I'm 100% gonna take this meatgrinder of a model in casual games (even if he is as tough as paper).
astro_nomicon wrote: If you want Syl’eske I’d probably skip on shelaxi and go with more Daemonettes, fiends, and maybe even some seekers to threaten a first turn charge.
Don't Keepers of Secrets already threaten 1st turn charges? Especially with the Keeper with the guaranteed 1st turn charge.
Unless you reckon the massed fiends is essential in this kind of list to keep stuff locked down, though I'm still not sold on more daemonettes: I'm not a fan of running big Daemon troops units unless I'm taking several (too many points) or I'm deep striking them (not enough CP).
My understanding of Chaos Daemons is that they dont really perform that well atm in general, at the very least not khorne. But i was considering starting a Chaos Daemon army.
Am i misunderstanding that its often a good idea to run two patrols, one maybe mixed between nurgle/tzeentch and another is either dedicated fully to khorne or slannesh due to their good Loci?
Also if i were to start a Chaos Daemons army, what would be your tips for me, the new commer? Which units sohuld i focus on getting first? etc. Also is Chaos Daemons allowed to play along side regular chaos space marines in a patrol? what would the loss of doing so be?
Has the final rules for Be'lakor come out yet? I know we have seen some abilities and stats, but we still don't know all of his rules or his psyker powers correct? Also we still don't know if he is supreme commander yet either right? I am curious as if he can be a supreme commander it would be interesting to use him as the leader of my Tzeentch daemon force as he adds a lot of CC hitting power just based on what we do know.
I was thinking about this and would appreciate some input. Are Daemonic Icons a trap? They cost 15 points (which is 2 daemonettes with a point left over) and 1/6 of the time can return 3.5 models back to the unit (giving back ~17.5 pts). Now how often are you making morale checks for a unit before it is blown off the table?Overall I just don't see them being worth the cost. I think I'd rather have the extra models on the board to start with and go from there.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I was thinking about this and would appreciate some input. Are Daemonic Icons a trap? They cost 15 points (which is 2 daemonettes with a point left over) and 1/6 of the time can return 3.5 models back to the unit (giving back ~17.5 pts). Now how often are you making morale checks for a unit before it is blown off the table?Overall I just don't see them being worth the cost. I think I'd rather have the extra models on the board to start with and go from there.
Comments?
Only if playing Syll'eske daemonette horde (also a remind that you always roll for morale even if only one model dies, therefore giving you good odds for 1 via rerolls)
I can't imagine too many attacks that would only kill 1 model and with a Ld score of 7 you can only afford to lose 1 model without risking losing more models. If you have a greater daemon or something else that raises the daemonettes' LD it might be worth taking an Icon but you'd have to be able to keep the unit within 6" of the booster at all times and even then...
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I was thinking about this and would appreciate some input. Are Daemonic Icons a trap? They cost 15 points (which is 2 daemonettes with a point left over) and 1/6 of the time can return 3.5 models back to the unit (giving back ~17.5 pts). Now how often are you making morale checks for a unit before it is blown off the table?Overall I just don't see them being worth the cost. I think I'd rather have the extra models on the board to start with and go from there.
Comments?
I agree, I think they are a trap in 9th. The one exception might be Pink Horrors. If you use splitting and ensure a Brimstone Horror stays around, then you can sacrifice it in your psychic phase so that you can roll another morale check. Of course, that's even more points invested (I'm still upset about 5pt Brimstones).
I think your second list will do better - there are more big units to overwhelm the enemies anti-tank/monster. In terms of the KoS, I recommend using whips over the hands. I just don't find the hands come into play often enough, and being able to soften up units with the whips helps. Whips also give you an additional way to deal with enemy fliers.
Hey folks. My wife wants to try running mono-Slaanesh for a slow grow league we have coming up. Obviously Keepers and such are down the road, but what heroes/hqs should I order for her for those earlier low and mid-size game? Specifically for 750pts, through 1500pts. Thanks
750 on the nose and would probably dumpster plenty of armies.
Unfortunately all of the herald options (of pretty much any alignment) are just bad right now. I have faith that will change once we get a new codex, but until then including them in a list is pretty much dead weight unless you have something specific in mind. Then consider that any of the other slaanesh hq options are as or nearly as expensive as a Keeper and there’s not much of a choice. Cases can be made for the Contorted Epitome and Syl’eske but at 210 and 230 pts respectively they don’t really have a case until you get to around 2000 points or have a very specific strategy.
Well we don't want to go tooo hard as it is a friendly league. We own three Keepers for tournament play down the line, but the league is super chill, and mostly to encourage painting for newer/younger community members.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Well we don't want to go tooo hard as it is a friendly league. We own three Keepers for tournament play down the line, but the league is super chill, and mostly to encourage painting for newer/younger community members.
How's the Masque generally speaking?
Heard that. Masque looks ok for the tricks it has over a standard herald. If you just want a painting project that could be half decent then Syl seems like the best bet. Buffs like a DP and a herald at the same time and hits better than either. Seems fun with a slaanesh horde without being too overpowering in more casual games. Also probably my favorite of the newer slaanesh models.
Anyone else trying to get Daemons to work in 2022? Seems like secondary-wise one could build around To The Last and Stranglehold. I'm thinking about adding a Changecaster to my list as a psychic action monkey for the center of the board.
I'm assuming not much has changed in optimization of units - Keepers are still under-costed as far as internal codex balance goes, and one properly kitted big bird isn't as unkillable as it once was, but still tanky for us...
Depending on your list composition, a Herald of Slaanesh will be better than a Changecaster for that purpose. Less points and better utility in close combat if needed.
From what I have seen most lists that do well are the Be'lakor / KoS spam. I'm also lead to believe that Deciples of Be'lakor also do quite well.
Not much has really changed for us since Be'lakor dropped.
On a side note, I'm having fun with hoards of Horrors - specifically bringing a unit of 30 Pinks and reserving a good chunk of points for splitting. It seems to demoralise my opponents when there are more Horrors then when they started attacking.
Given the new GT pack, what are competitive lists going to look like? I can't imagine the indestructible Big Bird will survive given the CP changes (1 cp for trait, 1 cp for relic, and 1 cp for exaltation)
For a monster mash list I'm imagining a battalion and a patrol. 3 keepers, exalted, and the patrol has Shalaxi and either another Exalted GD (Thirster?), Syll'Esske, or the Contorted Epitome.
Flamers of Tzeentch look better given the ongoing flow of CP to fule their MW strat.
Oddly enough, I've been working on tweaking my list and I think Big Bird will stay in.
My plan is to spend all six possible CP before game -- our pregame spend is still vastly more efficient than our in game spend.
I built a list of everything I spend CP on and force ranked it based on efficiency and in game effect (including paying CP for detachments).
I'm planning to spend 3 CP on my Big Bird.
Those 3 CP are just so amazingly effective - apart from making sure that my Slaanesh has their own detachment for run and charge, and giving one Keeper of Secrets the 4++ invuln, the layered durability on the big bird and the ability to just sit him out in the middle with impunity I find more valuable than anything else I can spend CP on.
Your mileage and or opinions might vary, of course.
Usually someone (anyone) starts a new thread and people start discussing. If two or more people create a new thread then generally the more popular one will be the one that survives and gets used.
Basically, if you want a new thread just go ahead and create it. Most of the discussion about Daemons seems to be going on in news and rumours at the moment, but there's no good reason not to start discussing in the Tactics channel.
p5freak wrote: They arent popular because GW completely neglected them for many years. They didnt even get point updates in the last year.
Yeah, it's weird, I assume they're popular in AoS, but most of the updates there translate to mortal followers which obviously doesn't translate to 40k.
Chaos in general seems to suffer from a lack of design team enthusiasm. The rules are generally solid enough to play competitively, but there's a real lack of innovation and imagination applied across the line.
That being said, I'm satisfied with what I've seen from the new Daemons rules. They look like they'll be fun to play, even if they're a bit one dimensional. I only really play within my group of friends, which means I play maybe once or twice a month and I generally know what armies I'll be facing, so my perspective is limited.
Chaos on the whole is really popular in AoS. But the range is different.
good old Chaos Warriors (hordes, slaves, whatever)
each god has a release (slaanesh got a lot of models and are arguably one of the worst books, soo... dont' complain you didn't get models if you get a good book haha)
beasts of chaos are traditionally popular
skaven are also clearly defined as chaos finally.
So while we don't have Chaos Marines, per se (chaos warriors never really translated properly like Jes wanted all those decades ago) the range is wide, diverse and hugely popular.
). It’s got the same 30 man pink blob and 20 man bloodletter bomb for the utility they provide, but beasts, nurglings and the now-staple Unkillable Big Bird for mortal woundage. Very similar TSons detachment to boot. Have look and let me know what you think of you will:
