Not only can they be summoned T1, but if you can pass the psychic test and any DTW shenanigans, a CSM Master of Possession can do so after Advancing. BoNs and Soulgrinders suddenly become rushdown, and Horror horde can’t be blunted before it fires at full effect, and even Flamers take on niche uses against very hard to hit stuff.
I do not deep strike anything so far. I'm able to grab a lot of board control and react where needed. I have managed to pull off some fun flanking maneuvers with the Seekers/Exalted chariots as well.
So far I've tested the list against Genestealer Cults and a mix of Tzeentch Daemons/Thousand Sons and it's held up fairly well and it's fun to use.
I love your list. This is the kind of monogod rush list I want to play. I really don't have fun playing large packs of slow plaguebearer...I'm trying to achieve a similar Khorne list, what do you think :
I do not deep strike anything so far. I'm able to grab a lot of board control and react where needed. I have managed to pull off some fun flanking maneuvers with the Seekers/Exalted chariots as well.
So far I've tested the list against Genestealer Cults and a mix of Tzeentch Daemons/Thousand Sons and it's held up fairly well and it's fun to use.
I love your list. This is the kind of monogod rush list I want to play. I really don't have fun playing large packs of slow plaguebearer...I'm trying to achieve a similar Khorne list, what do you think :
Hrm... it's difficult because Khorne is quite different. I am not as familiar with Khorne units/strategems, so I apologize if my analysis is worthless. That said, I am not sure you're going to achieve a similar impact to what I have in the list I posted. You have a lot of units that are running at different speeds (the majority of my list is moving a base 14".) I designed it so everything would stay together as a pack and not come in piece meal to present a united front. I also question how good Bloodcrushers are... I am not sure what role they fulfill, though they do appear tough with that 4+ save. There's also a distinct lack of supporting characters to provide buffs (if Khorne has them). Reroll 1's are nice from DPs but that's really all they do. My Contorted Epitome & Herald on Steed are providing +1 strength to all the units they are around, along with some other tricks.
Unless your plan is to run up with everything minus the skull cannons? And just fire with them on the move? That could be worth a shot. You'd run into the same issue of not enough units to overwhelm the enemy with this list. I expect things to die and build around that.
I feel like Khorne is more built around deep striking... but again I don't know the khorne stuff super well and how you would pull that off.
It couldn't hurt to try this list and see how it does in your local meta, especially if you already have all these models. Again, I apologize for my lack of Khorne knowledge. I am balls deep in Slaanesh haha.
Hrm... it's difficult because Khorne is quite different. I am not as familiar with Khorne units/strategems, so I apologize if my analysis is worthless. That said, I am not sure you're going to achieve a similar impact to what I have in the list I posted. You have a lot of units that are running at different speeds (the majority of my list is moving a base 14".) I designed it so everything would stay together as a pack and not come in piece meal to present a united front. I also question how good Bloodcrushers are... I am not sure what role they fulfill, though they do appear tough with that 4+ save. There's also a distinct lack of supporting characters to provide buffs (if Khorne has them). Reroll 1's are nice from DPs but that's really all they do. My Contorted Epitome & Herald on Steed are providing +1 strength to all the units they are around, along with some other tricks.
Unless your plan is to run up with everything minus the skull cannons? And just fire with them on the move? That could be worth a shot. You'd run into the same issue of not enough units to overwhelm the enemy with this list. I expect things to die and build around that.
I feel like Khorne is more built around deep striking... but again I don't know the khorne stuff super well and how you would pull that off.
It couldn't hurt to try this list and see how it does in your local meta, especially if you already have all these models. Again, I apologize for my lack of Khorne knowledge. I am balls deep in Slaanesh haha.
Thanks a lot for your analysis
I think you're right, Slaanesh looks a lot better in a rush list. I love Slaanesh models too, so
As I don't want to copy your list, I tried to modify it a bit :
TEST 1 :
Hrm... it's difficult because Khorne is quite different. I am not as familiar with Khorne units/strategems, so I apologize if my analysis is worthless. That said, I am not sure you're going to achieve a similar impact to what I have in the list I posted. You have a lot of units that are running at different speeds (the majority of my list is moving a base 14".) I designed it so everything would stay together as a pack and not come in piece meal to present a united front. I also question how good Bloodcrushers are... I am not sure what role they fulfill, though they do appear tough with that 4+ save. There's also a distinct lack of supporting characters to provide buffs (if Khorne has them). Reroll 1's are nice from DPs but that's really all they do. My Contorted Epitome & Herald on Steed are providing +1 strength to all the units they are around, along with some other tricks.
Unless your plan is to run up with everything minus the skull cannons? And just fire with them on the move? That could be worth a shot. You'd run into the same issue of not enough units to overwhelm the enemy with this list. I expect things to die and build around that.
I feel like Khorne is more built around deep striking... but again I don't know the khorne stuff super well and how you would pull that off.
It couldn't hurt to try this list and see how it does in your local meta, especially if you already have all these models. Again, I apologize for my lack of Khorne knowledge. I am balls deep in Slaanesh haha.
Thanks a lot for your analysis
I think you're right, Slaanesh looks a lot better in a rush list. I love Slaanesh models too, so
As I don't want to copy your list, I tried to modify it a bit :
TEST 1 : [spoiler]++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) [39 PL, 819pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 189pts]: Hellforged sword, Warp bolter, Wings
. Slaanesh: Symphony of Pain
I'm struggling between those 2, what do you think?
[/spoiler]
Hrm, so you're not already playing Khorne? You're looking to start a Daemons army from scratch? Both lists look good but I would say the second is probably better due to the contorted epitome support. For starting an army (any army) I'd really take a hard look at the aesthetics/style/lore and decide which army fits you best.
Of course, if you like being excessive in all things, enjoy the models and like the gameplay style (fast, glass cannon) then I say go for it!
Hrm, so you're not already playing Khorne? You're looking to start a Daemons army from scratch? Both lists look good but I would say the second is probably better due to the contorted epitome support. For starting an army (any army) I'd really take a hard look at the aesthetics/style/lore and decide which army fits you best.
Of course, if you like being excessive in all things, enjoy the models and like the gameplay style (fast, glass cannon) then I say go for it!
I have a multi-god daemon army, but I get bored with the "large infantry unit" gameplay. I wanna start a new one, a fast one, with less miniatures ! That's why I love the concept of your list
My favorite daemon minis are the Khorne ones, but it seems hard to make a decent list with this God...So Slaanesh looks like a good compromise.
EDIT :BTW, I have the epitome in list 1 too, here's final version (I think) :
you need bigger threats that''s the reason to play 3 KoS, if you face a serious gunline your frail model are wipped out. I played mono slaanesh couple of times in ESC kind format and you struggle against gunlines if you dont play some bigger threats who eat some bullets away from your "soft" targets
So I'm painting up a Lord of Change (My laser parrot!) and I was thinking of running a strange Khorne, Slaanesh Tzeentch hybrid list, but one of each Greater Daemon!
3 Battalions with Greater Daemon + Herald and then forces to taste, how do you think that sort of list would fare? Are GD's viable or is it Daemon Prince or go home sort of deal?
blackmage wrote: depend where yoi decide to play it.... casual or competitive, that's make a huge difference
I'm going to go with semi competitive in the view of its not a strictly fluffy local meta, people play to win but there are plenty of unit choices because the player likes it over the slightly more optimal choices.
blackmage wrote: overall GD aren't super strong. KoS and LoC are playable , kos cause they are fast and cheap and LoC cause of 3++ inv.save BT and Guo for me are out.
I was just at a store playing with me 3 KOS build against a DG/Nurgle player and I definitely was mistake on the GUO rules. They definitely are not super great and I was surprised, I thought they did a lot more aura buffing.
too much hate out there for GD, not enough T not decent inv. save, or too low damage output (LoC). Having Dp's no reason to choose a GD, GW made totally random poor profiles/rules rules for them
blackmage wrote: overall GD aren't super strong. KoS and LoC are playable , kos cause they are fast and cheap and LoC cause of 3++ inv.save BT and Guo for me are out.
Can LoC still get the 3++?? I thought this was FAQed... Is it only with warp surge? I remember it used to be meta with the impossible robe... 3CP for a 3++ on a LoC is a bitter pill to swallow.
regarding the Slaanesh All-In Rushdown list of KOS, chariots, and other fast stuff i've seen posted in this thread would soul grinders work well in such a list? They seem like a good fire magnet in exchange for a KOS and a couple chariots. (also I only have 2 KOS for the foreseeable future)
blackmage wrote: overall GD aren't super strong. KoS and LoC are playable , kos cause they are fast and cheap and LoC cause of 3++ inv.save BT and Guo for me are out.
Can LoC still get the 3++?? I thought this was FAQed... Is it only with warp surge? I remember it used to be meta with the impossible robe... 3CP for a 3++ on a LoC is a bitter pill to swallow.
The thing that "used to be meta" was warp surging an Impossible Robe LoC for a 2++. And even then it was never actually competitive because even an unkillable LoC doesn't really do much. At best it casts two spells a turn and charges something for 3-5 attacks. It can't fall back and charge and it has no guns so its use will always be pretty limited for a near 300-point unit.
The best thing about the old 2+++ LoC was actually its +2 to deny rolls which completely shuts down enemy psychic.
operkoi wrote: regarding the Slaanesh All-In Rushdown list of KOS, chariots, and other fast stuff i've seen posted in this thread would soul grinders work well in such a list? They seem like a good fire magnet in exchange for a KOS and a couple chariots. (also I only have 2 KOS for the foreseeable future)
they dont have comparable damage output.... KoS all the life.
blackmage wrote: overall GD aren't super strong. KoS and LoC are playable , kos cause they are fast and cheap and LoC cause of 3++ inv.save BT and Guo for me are out.
Can LoC still get the 3++?? I thought this was FAQed... Is it only with warp surge? I remember it used to be meta with the impossible robe... 3CP for a 3++ on a LoC is a bitter pill to swallow.
The thing that "used to be meta" was warp surging an Impossible Robe LoC for a 2++. And even then it was never actually competitive because even an unkillable LoC doesn't really do much. At best it casts two spells a turn and charges something for 3-5 attacks. It can't fall back and charge and it has no guns so its use will always be pretty limited for a near 300-point unit.
The best thing about the old 2+++ LoC was actually its +2 to deny rolls which completely shuts down enemy psychic.
that's why you dont see any GD in competive or semi competitive lists. Right now i think the only one can have some sense to play is KoS in a monoslaanesh or if you run some other big targets.
blackmage wrote: you need bigger threats that''s the reason to play 3 KoS, if you face a serious gunline your frail model are wipped out. I played mono slaanesh couple of times in ESC kind format and you struggle against gunlines if you dont play some bigger threats who eat some bullets away from your "soft" targets
Good point, you're totally right !
So, as I still prefer Khorne models, could this Khorne rush list work :
it cant perform like slaanesh cause no models in your army can move run and assault and you are not more durable than slaanesh, Can perform until you face a list with ton of long range firepower and screens (IG for example)
I posted a 1250pt chaos daemon list in the army list thread...I'd love some opinions on it. I want a Daemon Prince heavy list (3 DP data sheets and the two special characters), no Forgeworld, and no soup. I've got two obnoxious units of Nurglings to hide in cover but "catch" bullets while I rush the Princes up, and after one bit of advice, I've added Plaguebearers to hold the backfield objective(s). I've been told that Tau could give me fits, but I think the only thing I'll really fear are snipers (and even then, Cursed Earth CP is a thing).
With the ascendance of space marines, particularly Ultramarines, will they change at all how you build your list? Are there any tactics you think will work well for daemons against them? Anything we in particular should look out for as daemon players against them?
Seems like they are going to be super popular now...
perrin23860 wrote: With the ascendance of space marines, particularly Ultramarines, will they change at all how you build your list? Are there any tactics you think will work well for daemons against them? Anything we in particular should look out for as daemon players against them?
Seems like they are going to be super popular now...
An influx of non-FLY enemies that can fall back and shoot, that cries out for Fiends, Epitomes, and Skarbrand
Primaris becoming more viable cries out for D2 weapons, D3 for Gravis. Fiends, Plague Drones, Karanak and Skull Cannon aren’t bad at that. Screamers are modestly capable - still weak, but perhaps a little less so. Bloodletters and Daemon Princes are great at it. Soulgrinders and BoNs might be ok deepstrikers. (Or Master of Possession summon fodder for soup players - who’ll also dig Obliterators.)
Aggressors always double-shooting on Overwatch cries out for 10” charges, that’s your Bloodletter bomb right there. Soup players will benefit from Host Raptorial Warp Talons.
I'm seeing a lot of armies with scouts, maybe even more so now. Makes me think nurglings will be really worth their weight in gold to fight for early game dominance, particularly vs drop pods. Their thunderfire cannons have the potential to really slow down the standard footslogging lists that have characters embedded in the masses of usually plague bearers. If I was a space marine player, that tactic is amazing against a lot of things. Also their overwatch is awfully strong. If you as a daemon player don't know about all of the options that space marines can lay down, you're hamstringing yourself. I also think they are going to be super popular, at least around here I expect that fully.
Primaris becoming more viable cries out for D2 weapons
Considering that D2 weapons have always been the most powerful, meta weapons for basically all of 8E, I wonder how much more viable Primaris will actually be with their new rules.
Malefic talons, disintegrators, avenger gatling cannons, butcher cannons, storm cannon arrays, starcannons, reaper launchers, laser lances, plasma guns... lots of nasty D2 in the meta out there...
perrin23860 wrote: I'm seeing a lot of armies with scouts, maybe even more so now. Makes me think nurglings will be really worth their weight in gold to fight for early game dominance, particularly vs drop pods. Their thunderfire cannons have the potential to really slow down the standard footslogging lists that have characters embedded in the masses of usually plague bearers. If I was a space marine player, that tactic is amazing against a lot of things. Also their overwatch is awfully strong. If you as a daemon player don't know about all of the options that space marines can lay down, you're hamstringing yourself. I also think they are going to be super popular, at least around here I expect that fully.
Hmm. Not only can the Thunderfire Cannon fore twice, but SM also have access to a psychic power that has the same effect. That’s potentially three units slowed down a turn.
Slaanesh is going to be hit hard by this matchup. Epitome is an ok counter to the psychic version, but there’s not an awful lot to do about having your best two foot units shot off their feet. I suppose Fly Princes and Furies can help. But really, the enemy gun needs to be silenced. Slaanesh soup can get a Scorpius Whirlwind to shoot it out, but that’s not much help for pure Daemons. I guess build some redundancy into the list so you can still function with two units hamstrung?
With the MOK you get 3 S5 attacks per model.
They are only 8 points each and can fly 12".
However they only hit on 4s and die to a light breeze.
Worth looking at or not?
There is no need to make your letters bigger, we can read the default size just fine.
Now, to your question. A bloodletter is 7 pts., they can deepstrike, and charge 3D6 after that. And they get two attacks at S5 AP-3 D1, an unmodified roll of 6 to wound is D2. 20 or more models hit on 2+, Now, think again if furies are worth looking at, or not.
With the MOK you get 3 S5 attacks per model.
They are only 8 points each and can fly 12".
However they only hit on 4s and die to a light breeze.
Worth looking at or not?
There is no need to make your letters bigger, we can read the default size just fine.
Now, to your question. A bloodletter is 7 pts., they can deepstrike, and charge 3D6 after that. And they get two attacks at S5 AP-3 D1, an unmodified roll of 6 to wound is D2. 20 or more models hit on 2+, Now, think again if furies are worth looking at, or not.
Sorry I'm on mobile and the Dakka formatting always seems super messed up for some reason.
Dying in a light breeze doesn’t stop Bloodletters being solid. Furies trade hitting power for more actual attacks. Probably situationally handy. Cheap space filler in an Outriders that’s added DTW coverage with Flesh Hounds and Karanak.
Any comments/thoughts on the Daemon List I put together? 1250pts to contain a Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle Prince, Syll’Esske, Be’Lakor, 2 units of Nurglings and a big blob of objective-holding Plaguebearers? It has 9 CP, each Prince gets an artifact (except the two characters), and scouting Nurglings prevent them from being shot if I can poop the Nurglings in area terrain that hampers the opponent. Then they’d have to get through the Tzeentch 3++ or Be’Lakor’s 3++ after I use Cursed Earth on him.
I recognize “rule of 3”, hence two special characters that are their own unique data sheets.
That's units of 3 Nurglings yeah? It then largely comes down to your local meta as to how well they do. If you don't have sufficient LOS blocking terrain then they will probably die T1 leaving your DP's exposed.
That being said, I think your list would struggle against hoards regardless of terrain. Also, units like Aggressors would ruin your day.
These new Space Marine rules are having quite an impact on my Khorne Daemonkin list
I’m in an Astartes-rich metagame and when my Bletterbomb arrives, there’s usually other units charging. If I don’t resolve the Bletters first, a counter-offensive sees a good third of them clubbed to death by bolters
Tazberry wrote: This is good to know, as I usual take two B-bombs of 25 letters coming down turn 2. Having problems with astra militarium and all of their shooting.
I have a recommendation: CSM detachment - World Eaters are probably best - of Warp Talons and a Smash Lord. Almost entirely Daemon units, and for a CP or two you get a load of Overwatch-ignoring flying chargers moving +2”
Combined with Bletter bomb, it makes an absolute mess of gunlines. Marksman Aggressors with 4D6 12” auto hitting OW? Don’t care!
Tazberry wrote: This is good to know, as I usual take two B-bombs of 25 letters coming down turn 2. Having problems with astra militarium and all of their shooting.
I have a recommendation: CSM detachment - World Eaters are probably best - of Warp Talons and a Smash Lord. Almost entirely Daemon units, and for a CP or two you get a load of Overwatch-ignoring flying chargers moving +2”
Combined with Bletter bomb, it makes an absolute mess of gunlines. Marksman Aggressors with 4D6 12” auto hitting OW? Don’t care!
It doesn’t sound bad at all. But generally speaking, I do think warp talons are under preforming for their cost. At least on paper as I haven’t tried them yet. Only got a 5 man but it’s usually okey to proxy so I might try it on Tuesday if I can get a game.
Do you suggest the new vigilus detachment then or just put them in a normal one and DS? I usually having problems with my detachment as we do play rule of three and only three detachment then.
Vigilus Host Raptorial Outriders every time, absolutely worth it - perfect synergy with Bletter horde as not only can the WTs neutralise Overwatch for the squishy BLs, but the WTs really benefit from Locus of Rage when +2 charge distance isn’t enough. Also gives access to CSM Stratagems; WE one in particular is really helpful, as it lets you stop psychic powers cast with really high rolls. If you’ve got a Crimson Crown, Veterans of the Long War plus Lightning Claws equals a lot of exploding attacks. Also, WE WTs now get 4A each on the charge - they do contribute to the dogpile.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course, if you’re using other CSM units, you can go ahead and put a WT unit or two in a detachment alongside like Obliterators, Lord Discordant, Havocs, etc, then make it a Host Raptorial
Since they both have the daemon keyword, would putting BL's and Possessed/GP with the Khorne mark work? Are doing it with Tzeentch or Nurgle daemons for that matter?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Since they both have the daemon keyword, would putting BL's and Possessed/GP with the Khorne mark work? Are doing it with Tzeentch or Nurgle daemons for that matter?
In the same detachment? You can, but you lose Locus (Daemons) and Legion Trait (CSM).
Just built a new list. Not all done yet but it’s coming.
I didn’t think of the extra attack all marines now get for charging so that’s good. So 4 attack’s and possibly 5 as I’m trying out my Skarbrand as well. Then adding Contorted Epitome for locking stuff in combat. Hard to fit two letter bombs and all that in as well trying too kill some screens but I might fit it in nicely or go all melee and have nurglings camping all over. I come back tomorrow with a list so we can change it and I try it out.
Night
Yeah, one of the issues with the WT bomb is that it’s all in reserve, and when you combine it with two Bletter bombs then you’ve got a dangerously low starting presence
hi to all, i want to start a mono-nurgle army taking some start collecting and adding new units...
I just took one start collecting and a spoilpox scrivener, don't know if it's better to take another start collecting or 2... i want to convert some plague drones in daemon princes, so the third would probably be good.
I start making 2 1000 points army list, and i want to share them with u
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Battle-forged CP
Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle
Detachment CP
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Chaos: Malefic talon, Wings
Nurgle
Daemon Prince of Chaos: Malefic talon, Wings
Nurgle
Spoilpox Scrivener
+ Troops +
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Plaguebearers: Instrument of Chaos, 29x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden
+ Fast Attack +
Plague Drones: Instrument of Chaos, 4x Plague Drone, Plaguebringer
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Battle-forged CP
Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle
Detachment CP
+ HQ +
Great Unclean One: Bilesword, Impenetrable Hide, Plague flail, Warlord
Poxbringer: Corruption
Spoilpox Scrivener
+ Troops +
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Plaguebearers: Instrument of Chaos, 29x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden
+ Fast Attack +
Plague Drones: Instrument of Chaos, 4x Plague Drone, Plaguebringer
which one do you prefer and why?
i have to change something?
make spoilpox warlord with the trait -1 to be hit and corruption, durable and can take some tolls when he charges/be charged ,if you can cast miasma on him can become pretty annoying.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Just so that it's completely clear, I'm currently under the impression that the new Fury models from Warcry have not gotten any new 40K rules.
Ok, i just finished this summer a builder league with a mono Khorne. It was a good way to learn how to use a simple mono army. Big question at three end of a few games .... how I can get a +1 to wound to the bloodletter and made the hellblades do 2 wound on a 5+?
I can't think of any factions that have access to +1 to wound off the top of my head. Does anyone know of any? That would be an incredibly powerful ability.
Tzeentch have “Flickering flames” for +1 to wound in shooting, but can only target Tzeentch Daemon units.
I usually take 2 units of 25 blodletters with icon and instrument and spend cp to deep strike. It’s the best way to use them for me. But I don’t think you can give letters +1 to wound, I think I’ve would have found it and most certainly used it. Best I can think of for buffs is a Herald +1S, DP reroll 1s, crimson crown for more hits on 6+ to wound, Dark apostles might have some prey.
Take a DP with wings and axe and give him relic Skullreaver, you won’t be disappointed.
slave.entity wrote: I can't think of any factions that have access to +1 to wound off the top of my head. Does anyone know of any? That would be an incredibly powerful ability.
Oh yeah VOTLW, how could I forget. I play Black Legion sometimes but with zero marines and ~100 cultists. I guess I just deleted VOTLW from my memory after the cultist nerf...
slave.entity wrote: I can't think of any factions that have access to +1 to wound off the top of my head. Does anyone know of any? That would be an incredibly powerful ability.
You can always double fight your bloodletters. It's enough to kill a knight in 1 turn which is totally worth it for the low cost of 3CP and ~200 points.
I actually can't remember the last time my bloodletters didn't completely demolish their target. They're among the killiest and most points efficient melee units in the game, comparable to genestealers.
If you’re bloodletters survives a Knights attack’s then yes, it’s worth 3CP to kill it. But in my experience I don’t have enough bloodletters left to make it worth it.
I feel like the whole book needs an update at this point. Nurgle is the only real competitive God but only the troops. New marines got some real good stratagems to counter our DS letters.
I've been running other stuff in casual/narrative though. Pretty fun, just gotta agree with your opponent to play B-tier army lists instead of competitive lists.
Tazberry wrote: If you’re bloodletters survives a Knights attack’s then yes, it’s worth 3CP to kill it. But in my experience I don’t have enough bloodletters left to make it worth it.
I feel like the whole book needs an update at this point. Nurgle is the only real competitive God but only the troops. New marines got some real good stratagems to counter our DS letters.
Not all the book need an update but Khorne need one. Since the new SM, what make Khorne useful was the +1 attack on charge/get charge etc... now the SM got that, they need a new buff to make them scary again.
I think the Daemon rules need a ground up rewrite starting with making the Greater Daemons an actual threat.
They should all be one of the strongest, most durable, most threatening things on the table.
They shouldn't die to a few lascanons before they can do anything. Each one should be a threat on par with the strongest Knights.
I love all the models, but rules wise they are frankly crap.
No lists ever take them.
Id rather not bump the Greater Demons up to 600ish points. Theyre already hard enough to fit into a Demon list at 200-300, id rather not shove an entire third of my list into one melee monster.
AoS is also has about a quarter of the shooting, and is far more involved in the melee phases. Big huge monsters are also pretty meta atm in AoS. Its more the game system than the sheets for the Greaters.
The Greaters all need better durability most of all.
Whether that's better saves, or reducing incoming damage by a certain amount, or regerating wounds I don't know.
I had the idea a while ago that as they can't hide behind their troops like smaller characters, the lesser daemons should be able to take wounds for them 'look out sir' style.
I have no idea if this would work or be balanced. But it might save them from being shot off the table turn one.
I had the idea a while ago that as they can't hide behind their troops like smaller characters, the lesser daemons should be able to take wounds for them 'look out sir' style.
but then they could be nearly unkillable...imagine a guo behind 120 plaguebearers....
durability is the problem with all the greaters, I think adding a new power to all of there datasheets would make them better and more interesting.
Something like:
Keeper: -1 to be hit
GUO: Regenerate D3 wounds each turn
Lord of change: reduce damage by 1.
Bloodthirster: -1 to would rolls against hit (6 always wounds)
If thats too much then a simple greater daemons have a 4++
I had the idea a while ago that as they can't hide behind their troops like smaller characters, the lesser daemons should be able to take wounds for them 'look out sir' style.
but then they could be nearly unkillable...imagine a guo behind 120 plaguebearers....
Doesn’t have to be a high likelihood. 4+ or 5+ screening from the minions could well be enough to make the most powerful incarnations of actual deities something to be afraid of but not effectively invincible
Can be easily narrated, the lesser Daemons are all desperate to prove their worth
Maybe even have some strats that give perks when more valuable units do it, like maybe a Herald that takes Wounds for its betters can regenerate some of them or get a general buff as their deity takes notice
Im not saying my idea is perfect, but it might be a step roughly in the right direction.
GD just have this weird problem of being essentially fantasy creatures with axes, swords and magic, versus guys with laser cannons, gatling guns and rocket launchers.
They need to up their game. And I don't mean giving a Bloodthirster a bazooka.
WisdomLS wrote: durability is the problem with all the greaters, I think adding a new power to all of there datasheets would make them better and more interesting.
Something like:
Keeper: -1 to be hit
GUO: Regenerate D3 wounds each turn
Lord of change: reduce damage by 1.
Bloodthirster: -1 to would rolls against hit (6 always wounds)
If thats too much then a simple greater daemons have a 4++
Why do you hate Nurgle? That's not NEARLY good enough to keep a GUO alive for long. Might get you one extra turn, at most.
WisdomLS wrote: durability is the problem with all the greaters, I think adding a new power to all of there datasheets would make them better and more interesting.
Something like:
Keeper: -1 to be hit
GUO: Regenerate D3 wounds each turn
Lord of change: reduce damage by 1.
Bloodthirster: -1 to would rolls against hit (6 always wounds)
If thats too much then a simple greater daemons have a 4++
Why do you hate Nurgle? That's not NEARLY good enough to keep a GUO alive for long. Might get you one extra turn, at most.
Reading back, your right that nurgle buff is nowhere near on the same level :-/
perhaps give GUO the reduce all damage by 1 and give lord of change re-roll a single failed save every phase.
How many Plaguebearer units would I need to make the Sloppity Bilepiper worth its 60 point cost? Itmlets them roll 2 die for morale and pick the lowest, so a good chance to get that 1 for bringing back dead models. My only thing is, I am only running a single block of 30. Is the Bilepiper just not worth his points for the one 235 point block or is it still worth?
dan2026 wrote: Im not saying my idea is perfect, but it might be a step roughly in the right direction.
GD just have this weird problem of being essentially fantasy creatures with axes, swords and magic, versus guys with laser cannons, gatling guns and rocket launchers.
They need to up their game. And I don't mean giving a Bloodthirster a bazooka.
the best way to make GD viables is drastically reduce long range firepower...poof magic done
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: How many Plaguebearer units would I need to make the Sloppity Bilepiper worth its 60 point cost? Itmlets them roll 2 die for morale and pick the lowest, so a good chance to get that 1 for bringing back dead models. My only thing is, I am only running a single block of 30. Is the Bilepiper just not worth his points for the one 235 point block or is it still worth?
2-3, a decent list wipes out 30 pb in a single fire phase
blackmage wrote: if you play ITC guess 60 Pb's should be enough bilepiper and poxbringer with miasma, in ETC you need at least 90
I play strictly casual, don't attend tournaments. I have played 30 and a bilepiper a few times and im starting to realize how much of a waste of points it is for only 30.
So once you've spent your points on a truck load of Plaguebearers, Heralds, and a few Nurglings and DPs, what do you spend the rest on? DG allies perhaps?
Vomikron Noxis wrote: So once you've spent your points on a truck load of Plaguebearers, Heralds, and a few Nurglings and DPs, what do you spend the rest on? DG allies perhaps?
depend... PBC are a solid choice in a nurgle demon list, or you can add some extra firepower if you have points enough, like double gatling IK or deredeos they both work great behind plaguebearers screen, more or less the list that Geoff Robinson (RIP) was testing in ITC
Hey. I'm getting back into playing daemons. Started 40k years ago with mono nurgle, now I want to be competetive with it as a core plus some allies in addition.
I see two different ways how I want to play this army, but I'm pretty unsure how to make it work:
1) Nurgle Daemonkin Don't like FW Dreads, so they're out. MAYBE ....Decimators cause they are daemon engines. I can see a concept around Epidemius, but I'm not sure about it. What are the standard approaches here and what could the new CSM bring to the table? Here I'm totally lost.
2) Chaos Daemon Soup I know about the different Daemon Bombs, Skullreaver Prince and the standard 60-90 Plaguebearers + HQs and the TS Detachment. Besides that, are there any decent builds out there? I don't wanna play a TS Detachment....doesn't feel right to me. Instead I would love to bring all gods together to the table. But I'm afraid only Troops and some HQs are worth it.
All in all.....I'm not looking for winning tournaments, but I want to find a way to play decent games with this faction (and possible allies). Any suggestions for units / synergies / combos / etc. are welcome! Thanks in advance.
you can use plageburst crawlers they are demons
demon codex is outdated outside nugle bloodletter/skullreaver prince/pink horrors there is nothing really intersting.
Flamers of Tzeentch backed up by a nearby Tzeerald often perform well for me.
They are expensive but are multiwound models with a decent invuln save and a nasty 12" flamer meaning they can be used on deepstrike and put out good overwatch. Add to that a 12" flyer move making them ever useful.
Need to be used in an in your face list with other easier targets nearby.
blackmage wrote: problem is like said before if you lost 30 Pb's in a single turn his ability is useless.
If your ND Battalion has some chunky Nurgling units, it can potentially enable them to pull some unexpected pranks
Don’t necessarily need two PB hordes to make solid use of the morale buff, one or two small units camping objectives and screening can appreciate it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HarveyBooze wrote: Hey. I'm getting back into playing daemons. Started 40k years ago with mono nurgle, now I want to be competetive with it as a core plus some allies in addition.
I see two different ways how I want to play this army, but I'm pretty unsure how to make it work:
1) Nurgle Daemonkin Don't like FW Dreads, so they're out. MAYBE ....Decimators cause they are daemon engines. I can see a concept around Epidemius, but I'm not sure about it. What are the standard approaches here and what could the new CSM bring to the table? Here I'm totally lost.
Epidemius is ok. When you’re doing well, he makes you do better, when you’re struggling, he’s sat in a corner doing less for you than a Poxbringer casting a support spell. When he sits on a backfield objective with a group of plaguebearers, deep strike units think twice before dropping nearby. When he gets his first Tally tier, your DPs can stop babysitting units that need hit rerolls and start doing disposable Boromir work, which can be unexpected.
DG bring a strong NDK game. A flying DP with Blighthaulers and Drones is excellent. Start them next to a Gnarlmaw and they can get some really scary first turns. Also, crawlers are widely rated well.
CSM have some solid NDK combos. Defilers and Maulerfiends led by Lords Discordant and/or flying DP (who can bring the powerful Warptime) make for a similarly powerful Gnarlmaw punch. If you’re not going pure DK, a Warpsmith is a safe pair of hands for a Warlord Trait that gives the DE’s +2M. If you take Black Legion, the LD can take a WT that makes it less likely to get deleted on T1. Heldrake in a non-WAAC environment can scarecrow support characters and be a distraction Carnifex. Forgefiend needs a Lord Discordant to be a competent shot. Venomcrawler and Decimator are generally considered overcosted, but in a casual environment they can be viable.
Obliterators are still solid. Single models can be used as asssassins, teleporting next to support characters and gunning them down. A larger unit deploying next to a Gnarlmaw is a solid bulwark with few efficient counters. Possessed are a bit naff, but Greater Possessed can accompany a Defiler & Maulerfiend jamboree and turn 3s to Wound into 2s. Mutilators are very difficult to get working. Warp Talons only really shine in a Khorne Daemonkin list.
Black Legion are solid if you want lots of Warlords and a survivable Lord Discordant and Obliterators using Veterans of the Long War. The Purge have a brilliant Chapter Trait, and their shoot-into-combat Stratagem has brutal synergy with PB tarpits. Alpha Legion trait and strat are powerful, but in a DK list only really benefits Obliterators and Possessed.
There’s some DG-CSM combos to think about. Possessed are gimmicky at best, but if they’re DG, next to a Gnarlmaw and a CSM Warptimer and a Blightbringer (DG Bell Guy), a T1 charge is very doable. Or the Warptimer can be a trebuchet that fires Mortarion, which is more viable in a metagame where the price hike on a bigger kind of Knight has made them stand down and stopped making everyone bring a battery of lascannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Daemon Engine jamborees can do interesting combos with a midfield Gnarlmaw, either deep striked in on T2 (won’t affect them until T3, annoyingly) or sown by Horticulous.
Masters of Possession have a psychic power that enables to you to drop a pack of Beasts of Nurgle or a horde of Plaguebearers or a Soulgrinder 9” away from the enemy on turn one, but you might fail to cast it, and many armies have a hard counter stratagem (off the top of my head: AdMech, Sisters, World Eaters, Black Templars)
Epidemius is ok. When you’re doing well, he makes you do better, when you’re struggling, he’s sat in a corner doing less for you than a Poxbringer casting a support spell. When he sits on a backfield objective with a group of plaguebearers, deep strike units think twice before dropping nearby. When he gets his first Tally tier, your DPs can stop babysitting units that need hit rerolls and start doing disposable Boromir work, which can be unexpected.
DG bring a strong NDK game. A flying DP with Blighthaulers and Drones is excellent. Start them next to a Gnarlmaw and they can get some really scary first turns. Also, crawlers are widely rated well.
CSM have some solid NDK combos. Defilers and Maulerfiends led by Lords Discordant and/or flying DP (who can bring the powerful Warptime) make for a similarly powerful Gnarlmaw punch. If you’re not going pure DK, a Warpsmith is a safe pair of hands for a Warlord Trait that gives the DE’s +2M. If you take Black Legion, the LD can take a WT that makes it less likely to get deleted on T1. Heldrake in a non-WAAC environment can scarecrow support characters and be a distraction Carnifex. Forgefiend needs a Lord Discordant to be a competent shot. Venomcrawler and Decimator are generally considered overcosted, but in a casual environment they can be viable.
Obliterators are still solid. Single models can be used as asssassins, teleporting next to support characters and gunning them down. A larger unit deploying next to a Gnarlmaw is a solid bulwark with few efficient counters. Possessed are a bit naff, but Greater Possessed can accompany a Defiler & Maulerfiend jamboree and turn 3s to Wound into 2s. Mutilators are very difficult to get working. Warp Talons only really shine in a Khorne Daemonkin list.
Black Legion are solid if you want lots of Warlords and a survivable Lord Discordant and Obliterators using Veterans of the Long War. The Purge have a brilliant Chapter Trait, and their shoot-into-combat Stratagem has brutal synergy with PB tarpits. Alpha Legion trait and strat are powerful, but in a DK list only really benefits Obliterators and Possessed.
There’s some DG-CSM combos to think about. Possessed are gimmicky at best, but if they’re DG, next to a Gnarlmaw and a CSM Warptimer and a Blightbringer (DG Bell Guy), a T1 charge is very doable. Or the Warptimer can be a trebuchet that fires Mortarion, which is more viable in a metagame where the price hike on a bigger kind of Knight has made them stand down and stopped making everyone bring a battery of lascannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Daemon Engine jamborees can do interesting combos with a midfield Gnarlmaw, either deep striked in on T2 (won’t affect them until T3, annoyingly) or sown by Horticulous.
Masters of Possession have a psychic power that enables to you to drop a pack of Beasts of Nurgle or a horde of Plaguebearers or a Soulgrinder 9” away from the enemy on turn one, but you might fail to cast it, and many armies have a hard counter stratagem (off the top of my head: AdMech, Sisters, World Eaters, Black Templars)
That's the kind of enlightment I was hoping for. Thank you very much! Guess I will now study those new CSM until the next big faq drops.
Epidemius is ok. When you’re doing well, he makes you do better, when you’re struggling, he’s sat in a corner doing less for you than a Poxbringer casting a support spell. When he sits on a backfield objective with a group of plaguebearers, deep strike units think twice before dropping nearby. When he gets his first Tally tier, your DPs can stop babysitting units that need hit rerolls and start doing disposable Boromir work, which can be unexpected.
DG bring a strong NDK game. A flying DP with Blighthaulers and Drones is excellent. Start them next to a Gnarlmaw and they can get some really scary first turns. Also, crawlers are widely rated well.
CSM have some solid NDK combos. Defilers and Maulerfiends led by Lords Discordant and/or flying DP (who can bring the powerful Warptime) make for a similarly powerful Gnarlmaw punch. If you’re not going pure DK, a Warpsmith is a safe pair of hands for a Warlord Trait that gives the DE’s +2M. If you take Black Legion, the LD can take a WT that makes it less likely to get deleted on T1. Heldrake in a non-WAAC environment can scarecrow support characters and be a distraction Carnifex. Forgefiend needs a Lord Discordant to be a competent shot. Venomcrawler and Decimator are generally considered overcosted, but in a casual environment they can be viable.
Obliterators are still solid. Single models can be used as asssassins, teleporting next to support characters and gunning them down. A larger unit deploying next to a Gnarlmaw is a solid bulwark with few efficient counters. Possessed are a bit naff, but Greater Possessed can accompany a Defiler & Maulerfiend jamboree and turn 3s to Wound into 2s. Mutilators are very difficult to get working. Warp Talons only really shine in a Khorne Daemonkin list.
Black Legion are solid if you want lots of Warlords and a survivable Lord Discordant and Obliterators using Veterans of the Long War. The Purge have a brilliant Chapter Trait, and their shoot-into-combat Stratagem has brutal synergy with PB tarpits. Alpha Legion trait and strat are powerful, but in a DK list only really benefits Obliterators and Possessed.
There’s some DG-CSM combos to think about. Possessed are gimmicky at best, but if they’re DG, next to a Gnarlmaw and a CSM Warptimer and a Blightbringer (DG Bell Guy), a T1 charge is very doable. Or the Warptimer can be a trebuchet that fires Mortarion, which is more viable in a metagame where the price hike on a bigger kind of Knight has made them stand down and stopped making everyone bring a battery of lascannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Daemon Engine jamborees can do interesting combos with a midfield Gnarlmaw, either deep striked in on T2 (won’t affect them until T3, annoyingly) or sown by Horticulous.
Masters of Possession have a psychic power that enables to you to drop a pack of Beasts of Nurgle or a horde of Plaguebearers or a Soulgrinder 9” away from the enemy on turn one, but you might fail to cast it, and many armies have a hard counter stratagem (off the top of my head: AdMech, Sisters, World Eaters, Black Templars)
That's the kind of enlightment I was hoping for. Thank you very much! Guess I will now study those new CSM until the next big faq drops.
Here's a Nurgle Engine list I'm excited about trying:
Nurgle Chaos Daemon Battalion HQ Epidemius
Poxbringer
Bilepiper
TROOPS 4x Nurglings
24x Plaguebearers, Icon
24x Plaguebearers, Icon
Brazen Beasts Spearhead Soulforged Pack HQ Disco Lord, Autocannon, Mecha-serpents, Master of Soulforges
Master of Possession (Cursed Earth, Infernal Power)
HEAVY Defiler, autocannon, twin flamer
Defiler, autocannon, twin flamer
Maulerfield, lashers
Maulerfield, lashers
I'm putting together a Bloodcrusher unit, and for points reasons, I need to have one less than I had originally intended. I was going to have a unit of five with a Skullmaster beside them, with one of them having an icon and another having an instrument. I want to keep the icon due to the morale benefit, but should I remove the model with the instrument or one with a sword? I'm leaning towards one with a sword, but if adding 1 to an advance or charge roll can be a serious gamechanger, I might think about keeping that one instead.
ArcaneHorror wrote: It might be. On the models, the other hand is holding on to the juggernaut so I wasn't sure how both weapons could be held simultaneously.
Add a third hand.
But unless the rules say you replace the sword with the Instrument/Icon, it does not.
It only replaces the sword on the model but game wise they still have the sword. They can be a distraction for your opponent as nobody plays them and they do seems like a threat as they should be in my opinion.
Thanks for the advice, I'll keep them then. Also, does the Locus of Khorne ability stack if you have two Bloodmasters in a battalion? I'm thinking of having a unit with Skulltaker and two BM's as the HQ's.
Each BM gives +1 strength, but if I had two close by a friendly daemon, I'm wondering if that would jack it up to +2.
Next time check the FAQs, this one was released 18 (!) month ago.
Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical
aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range.
Playing a casual game later and felt like busting out my two models as they have been gathering dust for too long.
On paper they seem to offer reasonable durability for their points (running mine as nurgle and tzeentch) but they struggle for offence.
BS 4+ and all heavy weapons and a platform with lots of big close combat weapons but only a 4+ to hit in combat is a real issue.
Why cant they move and fire! At least then you could move up for combat whilst still being useful.
A disco lord can give them +1 to hit, a dark apostle can give one of them another +1 to hit for ranged weapons, and you can use daemon forge to re-roll all failed hit and wound rolls.
Running a single Black Legion disco lord with the Indomitable warlord trait makes all daemon engine-based lists pretty strong.
I took a list with triple decimators supported by a Slaanesh disco lord and won against triple knights a few months back. The disco lord kept on tanking volcano lances to the face and just wouldn't die while making my butcher decimators BS2.
p5freak wrote: A disco lord can give them +1 to hit, a dark apostle can give one of them another +1 to hit for ranged weapons, and you can use daemon forge to re-roll all failed hit and wound rolls.
Lord Discordant won't effect Daemon detatchment Soul Grinders as they only work on <LEGION> DAEMON ENGINE. I am sad since I've had to repurpose my soul grinders as Defilers!
p5freak wrote: Oh sorry, I thought this is the chaos space marine tactics thread.
That's cool, it is very frustrating that the buff train is VERY one sided, like our Heralds can affect Legion Daemon engines but things like Greater Possessed DON'T work in return!
Hell I'd love them to make a Word Bearers specialist detactchment which gave up to X Daemon Units <Legion> keywords.
Best use for Soul Grinder is being summoned T1 by an advancing Master of Possession casting incursion. Which is, of course, a gimmick, as there’s so many factions that can shut down a psychic power cast on a 12. An infiltrating AL character can also do it on summon roll. Horticulous can also plant a tree enabling it to advance and fall back and charge next turn, which isn’t worth it on its own but as part of a list with, say, Obliterators and/or DG bombard things (name?) it’s a smooth synergy.
It’s an unreliable ploy and an unreliable unit, but that thing about the SG is that your opponent worries about it rolling well. It’s got a rubbish aim, but it’s got a strong arm, which makes it a distraction Carnifex, and with its profile plus DR it will tank a hell of a lot of firepower.
Cast Miasma on it and a gunline relying on plasma to deal with closing threats is in troub.
Plaguebearers are the most resilient troops in the game and have been the core unit in competitive chaos soup lists for most of 8E. Usually people take 30-60 in ITC while in ETC it apparently goes up to 90-150. Run them with a poxbringer to cast miasma of pestilence.
Nurglings are top-tier competitive and are one of the few units in the game that can still infiltrate.
For mono-Nurgle, daemon princes are a must. Sloppity bilepiper and spoilpox scrivener are great when you have lots of plaguebearers. Plague drones are great and have the plaguebearer keyword for extra synergy. Feculent gnarlmaws are strong in pure Nurgle. Great Unclean Ones are solid.
In general, most Nurgle units will be strong in casual and semi-competitive, while plaguebearers in particular are top tier competitive and borderline broken in some matchups. A buffed unit of 30 plaguebearers can practically solo entire enemy armies in casual games.
Mono nurgle is in great shape and should be plenty of fun to play.
in ETC minimal number is 90, in high competitive enviroment you need 120 at least, there are lists here around who can wipe easily 30-40 sometimes more, Pb's each turn.
First off competitive ITC list only every ran 60 plague bearers. ETC list ran more because they weren’t actually trying to win many games, just prevent their opponents from getting a large points advantage over them. I’d have to go into more detail on what kind of tactics ETC teams use to completely explain why teams do this, but for sure don’t go until an individual tournament with 90-120 plague bearers thinking you’ll win. Speaking of which.
Plague bearer list are no longer top tier. Jim vessel the person who’s had the most success with plague bearers, has switched to playing ironhands. The problem with plague bearers now is that more and more answers exist for them. Chaos knights and space marines both deal plague bearer lists very well, and are likely to be common In most metas. You’re still likely to go 3-2 to 4-1 with plague bearer lists, but 5-0 seems unlikely
of course he switched to IH they are largely ovepowered,until next CA/faqs, not because Pb's aren't viable, it's still the only way actual codex demon can pull wins at tournaments, you cant with korne slaanesh or tz, i play regularly in italy i know what i mean. Fact is when you play GWCA missions you see how pb's worth, if you play fan made game like ITC of curse things are different, not worse or better, different
So, anyone played vs any new-marine?
I have been taken more and more csm lately and only using my DP with skullreaver and some letter bombs.
Feels like letters will kill marines good, but hard to getting in vs all IH overwatch and if we keep 1/3 of our army offboard they can do a serious number on us and probably just clean up the rest after.
Tazberry wrote: So, anyone played vs any new-marine?
I have been taken more and more csm lately and only using my DP with skullreaver and some letter bombs.
Feels like letters will kill marines good, but hard to getting in vs all IH overwatch and if we keep 1/3 of our army offboard they can do a serious number on us and probably just clean up the rest after.
Here the wisdom of a MONO KHORNE DAEMONS player….. you need to think outside the box… If you do the Bloodletters bomb, you need to think outside the box how to use them… like deep strike them turn 3 when you are tarpitting a strong unit and you need the hammer to strike a head.
Tazberry wrote: So, anyone played vs any new-marine?
I have been taken more and more csm lately and only using my DP with skullreaver and some letter bombs.
Feels like letters will kill marines good, but hard to getting in vs all IH overwatch and if we keep 1/3 of our army offboard they can do a serious number on us and probably just clean up the rest after.
If you’re playing Khorne Daemonkin, try shutting down OW with a Host Raptorial with a couple of Warp Talons?
It requires a Smashlord, so I’d recommend WE for the extra TH swings and WT stabs
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bonus: WE strat is a hard counter to Magnus et all casting super Smite
Tazberry wrote: So, anyone played vs any new-marine?
I have been taken more and more csm lately and only using my DP with skullreaver and some letter bombs.
Feels like letters will kill marines good, but hard to getting in vs all IH overwatch and if we keep 1/3 of our army offboard they can do a serious number on us and probably just clean up the rest after.
Here the wisdom of a MONO KHORNE DAEMONS player….. you need to think outside the box… If you do the Bloodletters bomb, you need to think outside the box how to use them… like deep strike them turn 3 when you are tarpitting a strong unit and you need the hammer to strike a head.
Out of curiosity, what are you tarpitting with? It doesn't seem like there's much in our arsenal that does a good job in that department. However, I'm fairly new to the army, so I could be very wrong on this.
Tazberry wrote: So, anyone played vs any new-marine?
I have been taken more and more csm lately and only using my DP with skullreaver and some letter bombs.
Feels like letters will kill marines good, but hard to getting in vs all IH overwatch and if we keep 1/3 of our army offboard they can do a serious number on us and probably just clean up the rest after.
Here the wisdom of a MONO KHORNE DAEMONS player….. you need to think outside the box… If you do the Bloodletters bomb, you need to think outside the box how to use them… like deep strike them turn 3 when you are tarpitting a strong unit and you need the hammer to strike a head.
Out of curiosity, what are you tarpitting with? It doesn't seem like there's much in our arsenal that does a good job in that department. However, I'm fairly new to the army, so I could be very wrong on this.
We have options. They aren't top tier meta, but Cultists are still a reasonable tarpit unit if you take them in MSUs, due to their morale trouble. Staying inside demons, Flesh Hounds are actually not /awful/ at Tarpitting, since they're pretty cheap for the size of their base and can perform multiple jobs, like physic denial and rushing down objectives.
And going CSM for warp talons to deny overwatch might seem like a ok choice but they are 120 points for just a 5man unit.
Trying to continually build around my Tzeentch daemons and adding Khorne for heavy hitters put since codex came I feel like I have been going more and more too CSM and then adding my khorne daemons. Usually taking 2 x 25 letters fully upgraded, 200 points each and a DP with skullreaver. Absolutely love my DP!!! Any of you haven’t tried him, JUST DO IT! So good a anything but 30 ork boys I think.
Next list I’m building have 2 Deredos and two units of havocs with either lascannon or ML then adding in my letters.
Any real list but Nurgle daemons that are good but might not be a obvious choice? Thinking of getting more Demonettes for a cheaper choice and can advance and charge.
I've seen Slaanesh demons do some work. Their new HQ units like the Contorted Epitome and Keeper of Secrets are pretty bangin, alongside the Infernal Enrapturess. Pink horror bombs are also viable, as are Flamer bombs. I've used 9 flamers near a herald to great success, especially by giving them +1 to wound. Who wouldn't want 9d6 heavy flamer shots at 12", with +1 to wound? Those pesky Primaris are getting wounded on 2s.
There's some really nice synergies and there's loads of mele threats. And nobody has got through all the nurglings and plaguebearers yet.
I really like using epitome with gem + phantasmagoria and treason of tzeentch. If you get into a character bubble you can really give them some trouble.
small_gods wrote: I've been trying a newer version of the old style TSons and Plaguebearers list using the Contorted Epitome and Syll'esske. It's doing well.
There's some really nice synergies and there's loads of mele threats. And nobody has got through all the nurglings and plaguebearers yet.
I really like using epitome with gem + phantasmagoria and treason of tzeentch. If you get into a character bubble you can really give them some trouble.
It's a good list, and if the mirror can keep sylessk and skullreaver safe for 1 turn in combat then the game is won in most cases. The real problem of this list archetype is that it gets countered by competitive marines, thunderfire cannon tremor shells will cripple your plaguebearers movement and easy access to BS2 and full rerolls will quickly focus them down, at which point the characters will be deleted, if they haven't already been sniped out by phobos captain or eliminators.
small_gods wrote: I've been trying a newer version of the old style TSons and Plaguebearers list using the Contorted Epitome and Syll'esske. It's doing well.
There's some really nice synergies and there's loads of mele threats. And nobody has got through all the nurglings and plaguebearers yet.
I really like using epitome with gem + phantasmagoria and treason of tzeentch. If you get into a character bubble you can really give them some trouble.
It's a good list, and if the mirror can keep sylessk and skullreaver safe for 1 turn in combat then the game is won in most cases. The real problem of this list archetype is that it gets countered by competitive marines, thunderfire cannon tremor shells will cripple your plaguebearers movement and easy access to BS2 and full rerolls will quickly focus them down, at which point the characters will be deleted, if they haven't already been sniped out by phobos captain or eliminators.
Yeah there's definately some potential counters out there but at least PBs are still not caring about all the extra AP marines have got. Also those lists have to be relatively stationary and I play itc so generally hiding nurglings out of LOS can help keep characters alive.
Although there's a couple of Raven Guard lists in our local scene that I'm not looking forward to coming up against!
People keep saying that numarines are good at killing PBs but the fact is that PBs are still ridiculously tough.
With Chapter Master rerolls at BS2 you still need more than 150 bolter shots to kill a unit of 30. At BS3 (or Miasma) that's up to 180 shots. Marines have access to BS2 buffs but they can't affect every unit so in reality it's likely to be even more shots than this.
Even with heavy bolters or equivalent you still need 115 shots with full rerolls and BS2.
Yes, it is possible to kill them. But the amount of shooting it requires is disproportionate to the amount of points it costs to field them for even their best counters.
Regarding the list itself, I love the idea of Forbidden Gem, Epitome and Treason of Tzeentch all working together. That is a massive threat to any castle.
saint_red wrote: People keep saying that numarines are good at killing PBs but the fact is that PBs are still ridiculously tough.
With Chapter Master rerolls at BS2 you still need more than 150 bolter shots to kill a unit of 30. At BS3 (or Miasma) that's up to 180 shots. Marines have access to BS2 buffs but they can't affect every unit so in reality it's likely to be even more shots than this.
Even with heavy bolters or equivalent you still need 115 shots with full rerolls and BS2.
Yes, it is possible to kill them. But the amount of shooting it requires is disproportionate to the amount of points it costs to field them for even their best counters.
Regarding the list itself, I love the idea of Forbidden Gem, Epitome and Treason of Tzeentch all working together. That is a massive threat to any castle.
The only thing that worries me about the new Marines lineup is agressors. Especially flame salamanders and bolter ironhands/imperial fists. That 2+ and ridiculous ammount of shots can be worrying, but not impossible to play around. You just need to smite as many off the board as you can before overwatch.
The fact that daemons ignore all of the new AP buffs on marines is huge.
Tremor shells definitely seem like the biggest hard counter to plaguebearers. But I don't expect to see them much outside of events, if only because thunderfire cannons aren't a very popular model and people don't necessarily have them lying around.
Yes flamers are really good! A herald near by for +1S and giving +1 to wound then if anyone wants to shoot them you buff them with stratagem for a 3++ so they survive a bit better and not that many units are allowed to do a charge outside 12” so we can burn any chargers still having +1 to wound.
Now I want more flamers. Hahaha
If anyone want some feedback for keepers of secrets, here’s one.
They are good and draws away fire from other stuffs. They are fast! In a pure Slaanesh detachment they mostly will hit enemy deployment with ease. They kill stuff in combat but if a unit like a Knight survives having taken any wounds from the sword they have a -1 to hit (I think).
Personally I feel like the shield is a trap for a 6+++ and you have more value from the hand that heal the keeper.
Played a necron list at 2000points and I just quickly made the list of something like this.
3 keepers of secrets
2 lord Discordant
2 DP skullreaver and Slaanesh sword
2 units letters
And some screen cultists or nurglings or something.
Turn one.
Two keepers charge with one Lord Discordant killing a lot of stuff and consolidating into something else.
Enemy T1.
Killing one Lord Discordant and a keeper. The ones that was left out open.
T2.
Letters DS on a flank and all my army charge and more or less obliterated his whole army and locking the rest in combat.
This was the first time mine skullreaver DP did not kill his target!!! Quantum shielding negating all wounds but the MW as I rolled so hot for 5 and 6s on D!
All in all, I did NOT except this to happen and anyone who wants a melee army can consider keepers. Or wants a distraction for 240 points.
I‘ve locked horns with KoS and field-tested my own yesterday
Pretty solid early distraction that absolutely has to be killed lest it start regenerating via Sinistrous Hand, and a brutal counter to early charge armies. My own Khorne Daemonkin went from Warptimed Waaagh to playing keep-away with like a Helbrute until the KoS was dealt with and I could consolidate into a denied flank and fight on my terms
Elric Greywolf wrote: Question:
I’m finalizing my list for a GT, and am trying to decide between:
1. A second min unit of Nurglings and 20x Pinks
2. 25 man Letter Bomb
The Letters have the potential for much more damage, but the Nurglings are a great screen, and the Pinks will never have an ineffectual charge.
I usually like to have one unit of letters in my lists just to diversify threats and give my opponent something extra to think about. I generally dont take two in case my opponent has lots of screen but one is always a headache.
1. Having I got only 1 detachment and playing daemons, lets say Tzeentch, can a charater summon for example an obliterator with mark of tzeentch without having CSM in the list?
I think it should be legit as the daemonic ritual states you can summon any daemon after choosing the allegiance and with the given mark an obliterator has Faction: Tzeentch.
2. Having I got only CSM detachment, If a CSM character summons a daemon, let's say Thousand Sons Sorc summons horrors or Lord of Change, do the daemons receive Legion keyword, for example THOUSAND SONS?
1. Having I got only 1 detachment and playing daemons, lets say Tzeentch, can a charater summon for example an obliterator with mark of tzeentch without having CSM in the list?
I think it should be legit as the daemonic ritual states you can summon any daemon after choosing the allegiance and with the given mark an obliterator has Faction: Tzeentch.
2. Having I got only CSM detachment, If a CSM character summons a daemon, let's say Thousand Sons Sorc summons horrors or Lord of Change, do the daemons receive Legion keyword, for example THOUSAND SONS?
No to both.
The unit being summoned has to have Daemonic Ritual, not unit doing the summons.
And a summoned unit is just a standard unit-no special changes made to it.
1. Having I got only 1 detachment and playing daemons, lets say Tzeentch, can a charater summon for example an obliterator with mark of tzeentch without having CSM in the list?
I think it should be legit as the daemonic ritual states you can summon any daemon after choosing the allegiance and with the given mark an obliterator has Faction: Tzeentch.
2. Having I got only CSM detachment, If a CSM character summons a daemon, let's say Thousand Sons Sorc summons horrors or Lord of Change, do the daemons receive Legion keyword, for example THOUSAND SONS?
No to both.
The unit being summoned has to have Daemonic Ritual, not unit doing the summons.
And a summoned unit is just a standard unit-no special changes made to it.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Question:
I’m finalizing my list for a GT, and am trying to decide between:
1. A second min unit of Nurglings and 20x Pinks
2. 25 man Letter Bomb
The Letters have the potential for much more damage, but the Nurglings are a great screen, and the Pinks will never have an ineffectual charge.
I usually like to have one unit of letters in my lists just to diversify threats and give my opponent something extra to think about. I generally dont take two in case my opponent has lots of screen but one is always a headache.
This would be a single Letter Bomb. I’ve just had such bad luck lately with them...in the past four games, they have not killed their target in three of them. In the fourth, they killed a single Marine character. I like the idea of having two Nurglings for character protection purposes. But the damage potential of letters is so high...it’s just that practical vs potential hasn’t measured up lately....
Elric Greywolf wrote: Question:
I’m finalizing my list for a GT, and am trying to decide between:
1. A second min unit of Nurglings and 20x Pinks
2. 25 man Letter Bomb
The Letters have the potential for much more damage, but the Nurglings are a great screen, and the Pinks will never have an ineffectual charge.
I usually like to have one unit of letters in my lists just to diversify threats and give my opponent something extra to think about. I generally dont take two in case my opponent has lots of screen but one is always a headache.
This would be a single Letter Bomb. I’ve just had such bad luck lately with them...in the past four games, they have not killed their target in three of them. In the fourth, they killed a single Marine character. I like the idea of having two Nurglings for character protection purposes. But the damage potential of letters is so high...it’s just that practical vs potential hasn’t measured up lately....
Yeah they're definitely less of an auto inclide than they used to be, because of more and more crazy overwatch abilities and people seem better at deepstrike screening.
I generally go with one unit of 20 to save CP, if I can take overwatch on some plaguebearers I will. Also it's worth holding them back till t3 a lot of the time when their path is clear and your opponent has wasted 2/3 turns maneuvering aroind a 160 point unit whilst the rest of your army is free to go about their business!
1. Having I got only 1 detachment and playing daemons, lets say Tzeentch, can a charater summon for example an obliterator with mark of tzeentch without having CSM in the list?
I think it should be legit as the daemonic ritual states you can summon any daemon after choosing the allegiance and with the given mark an obliterator has Faction: Tzeentch.
2. Having I got only CSM detachment, If a CSM character summons a daemon, let's say Thousand Sons Sorc summons horrors or Lord of Change, do the daemons receive Legion keyword, for example THOUSAND SONS?
No to both.
The unit being summoned has to have Daemonic Ritual, not unit doing the summons.
And a summoned unit is just a standard unit-no special changes made to it.
Not true for answer 2. Summoned units get keywords. The FAQ says you decide what keywords are used at the moment that its added to your army, without further limitation. You are free to choose whatever keyword you like. Note that summoned units are not part of a detachment.
Q: If a unit is added to my army during the battle that has any
keywords that are in angular brackets, when do I choose what
those keywords are?
A: You decide what that unit’s keywords are the moment
that it is added to your army.
Q: If a unit is added to my Battle-forged army during the battle,
is it ever considered to be part of a Detachment?
A: No, units that are added to your army during the battle
are never part of any Detachment (this means they will
never benefit from any Detachment abilities).
In this case, a Lord Of Change has no optional keywords-the "add a keyword" would apply to things like Furies or Soul Grinders, who do NOT have a set god.
In revamping my Khorne daemon army to have only three princes, I was thinking of removing the three with double talons, keeping the one with the axe and wings (it's a specially converted one with a bloodthirster head) who I'll always give the Skullreaver relic to, and putting in Samus and Uraka the Warfiend. Both of those strike me as having pretty good stats and at the moment (let's hope CA 2019 doesn't up the points), they cost less than a regular DP. Is this a good idea?
I have a much neglected Slaanesh Daemon army that I want to try out (last used it in the Index,.. the day the index books were first released). I've been pretty busy playing (Freebooter) Orks, (Biel Tan) Craftworld and Harlequins. So I'm 100% ignorant of Chaos Daemons right now.
I'm not playing ITC/ETC/comp just locally and casual competitive with what we own. I was hoping people could help me with some tips or general guidelines with what I own.
I have:
Be'Lakor
2 winged DP Infantry DP Syll'Eske
Masque
Contorted Epitome
Infernal Enrapturess
A few infantry heralds
3 Seeker Chariots
1 Exalted Chariot
2 Hellflayers
3 Fiends
20 Seekers (mtd girls)
60 Daemonettes.
2 Soul Grinders
Sadly my Keeper is now,.. 32 years old and fully relegated to "not using in any games, even friendly" and I can't afford a new one (2 kiddos and a mortgage eating the funds)
The army is where possible Juan Diaz Daemonettes (including all the chariots which I got lucky enough to be converted when they did that recent Made To Order).
I don't want to mix in Chaos Space Marines.
I would be looking for guidelines at 1000, 1500 and possibly 2k if that was doable.
Well, revised points values are on the way, which may throw things all over the place
You could get a battalion of 10-25-25 Daemonettes, that’s two hordes aiming for T2 charges and a small screening/backfield unit
The chariots, seekers, winged princes, and epitome can feasibly make some T1 charges, and be joined in it by individual Fiends, trolling your opponent by denying fallbacks
I guess the battalion would generally be the core of any list, with larger games adding even more to the T1 tsunami with the hordes following along with the slower characters (IE is really nice to troll psyker lists with)
Smaller lists can do a 10-10-(horde) Battalion
You can technically build a Brigade out of this but I would not recommend it, organising Daemonettes into big units makes more impact than a few more CP
I wouldn’t worry too much about the KoS, GDs generally want to be fielded in multiples as the metagame was recently geared to deleting a Titanic unit every turn and it’s still quite a hostile environment for a keystone big monster. KoS can make a T1 charge, but if you go second, it’s probably getting kneecapped by lascannons - a single GD is usually a somewhat inefficient fire magnet
Automatically Appended Next Post: And! If you’re going to try T1 charges with Fiends preventing fall backs, avoid Ld debuffs. The last thing you want is the last Intercessor within 1” of a Fiend panicking and running off the board, leaving half your army within rapid fire range.
If you take your Epitome, I recommend giving them Hysterical Frenzy and Cacophonic Choir. If you’ve got a good target for that first hard to cast spell, +1 to casting is a real boon. It’s got a 1/6 chance of getting the extra damage when casting the latter (and, for that matter, Smite - worth bearing in mind).
Heralds on chariots get new data sheets supposedly with the 2 damage claws, like all other heralds. Slaanesh also gained a completely new unit herald on hellflayer.
Giving Tzeentch heralds two casts will make them a little more potent -- but only a little, IMO, since their powers are relatively unimpressive. I suppose lobbing more smites is always useful, and Gaze of Fate will now become much more feasible. I'll be a lot more excited about double casting if Tzeench daemons get access to some of those tasty Thousand Sons options -- particularly Glamour of Tzeentch....
tinfoil wrote: Giving Tzeentch heralds two casts will make them a little more potent -- but only a little, IMO, since their powers are relatively unimpressive. I suppose lobbing more smites is always useful, and Gaze of Fate will now become much more feasible. I'll be a lot more excited about double casting if Tzeench daemons get access to some of those tasty Thousand Sons options -- particularly Glamour of Tzeentch....
When will we know if the Tzeentch Heralds gain another cast?
Well... not all Tzeentch news is bad. Flamers got pointed down, right? Along with some stuff?
Have to say Slaanesh seems to have won out again (which I can't cry about, as I play Slaanesh).
The rumored Herald update, partiuclarly the Hellflayer Herald is huge news in my opinion and welcomed. Will definitely grind up some Primaris marines or even tougher targets with that, and it can follow the 3 Exalteds I was already bringing.
Most of our stuff went down except the Masque going back up... I can only assume this is because she goes so well with Syll'Esske as a multiplier or it's an error.
My pure Tzeentch casual list keeps getting cheaper. I was really butthurt last year (was it last year?) when they nerfed the -1 to hit aura Changeling and 2++ Lord of Change. But seems like every update they lower the points costs of everything else.
slave.entity wrote: My pure Tzeentch casual list keeps getting cheaper. I was really butthurt last year (was it last year?) when they nerfed the -1 to hit aura Changeling and 2++ Lord of Change. But seems like every update they lower the points costs of everything else.
I don't think that leak includes everything. It doesn't include the points drops for the Slaanesh Heralds on chariots, nor the new Hellflayer. You can tell it starts off like it's on the second page? Doesn't say Daemons or whatever at the top?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Does Skarbrand still have the ability to one-hit kill anything if he's the warlord?
No. Skarbrand is the worst greater daemon, 290 pts., no relics for him, and he buffs enemy models.
I know that him buffing enemy guys makes him a risk, but I was thinking of putting him in a battalion with a bloodmaster and three units of bloodletters (one with the banner of blood) which I would then deepstrike. I think this could be a pretty nasty combination.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Does Skarbrand still have the ability to one-hit kill anything if he's the warlord?
No. Skarbrand is the worst greater daemon, 290 pts., no relics for him, and he buffs enemy models.
I know that him buffing enemy guys makes him a risk, but I was thinking of putting him in a battalion with a bloodmaster and three units of bloodletters (one with the banner of blood) which I would then deepstrike. I think this could be a pretty nasty combination.
He hits hard.
Against T8 2+/5++ = 18 damage
Against T8 2+/5++/5+++ = 12 damage
Toughness really doesn't matter he is wounding everything on 2's if you use the right profile.
The problem is you had best make sure he can charge some juicy target and not just an opponent's acreen.
Ok, here's my new Khorne daemon list: After the points drop in CA, I decided to revamp this army and was able to put in some more stuff. I like it a lot, but I was curious if there was anything off about it. Also, I'm up in the air about whether or not to give the Skullmaster the King of Blades relic. On one hand, it would noticeably up his killing power. On the other hand, that's two more command points gone, and I'm not sure how many I'll need to be able to win, especially due to the almost exclusively melee nature of this army. Oh, and should the armour relic go to the BT or the prince? That prince has some serious hitting power and it has a greater chance of living regardless, but the BT might need it more due to often being a magnet for firepower.
Spoiler:
Warlord Outrider Detachment:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Artefact: Skull Reaver) (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Mark of Khorne) = 165
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [HQ]
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds = 75
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds = 75
1 x 5 Flesh Hounds = 75
Skarbrand Battalion:
Skarbrand [HQ] = 290
Bloodmaster [HQ] = 56
1 x 29 Bloodletters, 1 Bloodreaper (with Banner of Blood/Icon and Instrument of Chaos) = 235
1 x 9 Bloodletters, 1 Bloodreaper = 70
1 x 9 Bloodletters, 1 Bloodreaper = 70
Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ] = 84
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] (Artefact: Armour of Scorn) (Mark of Khorne) = 156
Skullmaster [HQ] = 90
1 x 25 Bloodletters, 1 Bloodreaper (with Banner of Blood/Icon and Instrument of Chaos) = 235
1 x 9 Bloodletters, 1 Bloodreaper = 70
1 x 9 Bloodletters, 1 Bloodreaper = 70
Total points: 1998
Command points (original): 14
Command points (remaining after artefacts and Blood Banner): 11
He hits hard.
Against T8 2+/5++ = 18 damage
Against T8 2+/5++/5+++ = 12 damage
Toughness really doesn't matter he is wounding everything on 2's if you use the right profile.
I suggest you read the rules first. He is S15, and only on the same turn when he charged, got charged, or performed a heroic intervention. He isnt wounding everything on 2s. A bloodthirster can do the same for a lot less points.
Modifying Characteristics
Some large models’ characteristics can change as the model suffers damage – look at such a model’s remaining wounds and consult the appropriate row of the chart on their datasheet to determine its current characteristics.
You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.
He hits hard.
Against T8 2+/5++ = 18 damage
Against T8 2+/5++/5+++ = 12 damage
Toughness really doesn't matter he is wounding everything on 2's if you use the right profile.
I suggest you read the rules first. He is S15, and only on the same turn when he charged, got charged, or performed a heroic intervention. He isnt wounding everything on 2s. A bloodthirster can do the same for a lot less points.
Modifying Characteristics
Some large models’ characteristics can change as the model suffers damage – look at such a model’s remaining wounds and consult the appropriate row of the chart on their datasheet to determine its current characteristics.
You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.
This is correct he'd be Strength 15.
That being said, just stick him within 6" of any khorne daemon with a Locus and you're in business (easily done).
The only numerical difference between Skarbrand and a Bloodthirster of InsSenate Rage is 1 attack (starting fresh). Insansate Rage thirster then ALSO gets to roll 2 dice for damage and pick the highest.
So I would say that most likely it's going to do MORE than skarbrand fresh off the deepstrike charge when going after big targets (going after chaff skarbrand wound be better with the +1 attack if they are both using their sweeps).
The real difference is skarbrand gets more attacks as he drops in wounds profile, keeping him dangerous so long as he is on the field. The other one becomes two glorified meltas.
Is staying dangerous when damaged, a heavy flamer and +1 attack worth 60 more points? Dealers choice imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: The Elites and Heavy Support stuff are looking tempting, now. Does 7pt discount make Bloodcrushers viable? Still feels a bit steep
Some quick napkin math, on the charge, no outside auras, using 196pts of letters, and 200pts of crushers...
Bloodletters vs KEQ: 21 dmg Bloodcrushers vs KEQ: 8.7 dmg
Letters vs Aggressors: 27 dmg (7-9 dead)
Crushers vs Aggressors: 13 dmg (3-4 dead depending)
Letters vs Shield Captain with fnp: ~8 dmg Crushers vs Shield Captain: ~6 dmg
So point for point in terms of raw damage output it looks like no?
But there's way more to a game than just isolated scenarios.
I will just say above, bloodcrushers will get more models and attacks in then the bloodletters, can't apply whole units attacks at a time but bloodcrushers very easily can!
BoomWolf wrote: Crushers are also faster moving, and that's relevant for getting into combat to begin with, and getting the fight you want.
Bloodletters don’t walk across the battlefield, they teleport in and scream about everyone within 3D6+2” spilling their pints.
Hmm, these numbers still don’t look good. I suppose if you’re charging a unit that can reliably inflict 12 S4 hits in OW, Crushers have something of a niche…
BoomWolf wrote: Crushers are also faster moving, and that's relevant for getting into combat to begin with, and getting the fight you want.
Bloodletters don’t walk across the battlefield, they teleport in and scream about everyone within 3D6+2” spilling their pints.
Hmm, these numbers still don’t look good. I suppose if you’re charging a unit that can reliably inflict 12 S4 hits in OW, Crushers have something of a niche…
Treat crushers like daemon terminators, and give them 2+/5++ then we'd be in business.
As it is, imo they're a visually cool unit that is generally better as a counter charge/distraction unit than a primary means of damaging.
Is it worth a CP to deepstrike a unit of 10 bloodletters? Or just run them up the table?
Which is better: 2x20 deepstriking letters with instruments and another CP for a charge re-roll, or 1x30 with the banner of blood and a unit of 10 on foot? Both come to 3CP.
Deepstriking bloodletters is great but they use up the command points they provide
But you still have to make a 8” charge as you DS them MORE than 9” away from enemy units. And you have to end your move within 1” (not included 1” but 0,9999999”).
Tazberry wrote: But you still have to make a 8” charge as you DS them MORE than 9” away from enemy units. And you have to end your move within 1” (not included 1” but 0,9999999”).
Exact 1" is enough. But as you start more than 9" getting to exact 8" doesn't put you within 1" of enemy
Hi chaps, csm player here looking to dip into deamons.
I'm building an iron warriors khorne deamon engine list.
Basically lord of skulls, 3 defilers, 2 lord discordants, all getting extra hits on 6s with deamonsmith WL trait.
I want to get the crimson crown into my list and one suggestion I've had is to include both a DP with relic axe and a bloodthirster for threat saturation.
Now I would have never thought of the bloodthirster... so guys is a valid idea? Which type do people run? Any way to get + to charge if drop him in?
A list like that needs the crown more than Skullreaver so you get even more additional hits. So I recommend a DP with the crown as he have a good footprint and can not be targeted like your Lord Discordant. The DP will also give reroll 1s to hit.
You can only improve the charge to bloodletters and bloodchrushers with instrument (+1) and banner (stratagem in deployment so you Have 3D6 charge). On top of my head I think it’s all for me. I like your thoughts and probably borrow it for my Daemon engine list!
I've been running mine with the bell and the bile blade for bonuses to casting. Bringing back plague drones drives my regular opponents up the wall. It also works on Nurgle possessed and Myphitic blight haulers.
Quick question: For the great horn of Nurgle, do you need to have reserve points to add plague bearers back into units? Thanks in advance.
The4thEnemy wrote: I've been running mine with the bell and the bile blade for bonuses to casting. Bringing back plague drones drives my regular opponents up the wall. It also works on Nurgle possessed and Myphitic blight haulers.
Quick question: For the great horn of Nurgle, do you need to have reserve points to add plague bearers back into units? Thanks in advance.
If you are restoring dead models to a unit, you do NOT need Reinforcement Points.
If you are making an entirely new unit, you DO need them.
BellBlade is a build for an army where it’s got chunky stuff to resuscitate. If you’ve got drones, oblits, and/or haulers, it’s a high priority distraction Carnifex.
FlailSword is a tanky beatstick that, if you can’t goad your opponent to come at it, is going to struggle to reach a target before T4/death without screen clearance and being part of a monster mash list that forces your opponent to shoot something else
So I've been hammering away at a pure Slaanesh list with some mortal friends where the plan is to simply run straight across the board turn one and slap so many things in the enemy's face that they get overloaded. It looks like this at the moment:
Spoiler:
Batallion, Daemons of Slaanesh
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand, Witstealer, Celerity of Slaanesh
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand
3x10 Daemonettes, Instrument
2x3 Fiends with Blissbringer
1x2 Fiends
Batallion, Daemons of Slaanesh
Syll'esske
Contorted Epitome
3x10 Daemonettes, Instrument
Batallion, Night Lords, Soulforged Pack Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, Wings, Warptime, The Rapacious Talons
Lord Discordant, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges
3x10 Cultists of Slaanesh
1983 points, 15 command points after relics and specialist detachment cost.
I realize this isn't a hyper-competetive list, but I've got all the big gribblies already and I'm wanting to use them. The idea is to have a bunch of stuff with M14 and Advance and Charge to shove down the enemy's throat. Depending on how well the Lord Discordant rolls I could use Warptime on either it or the Daemon Prince, I've got two Keepers of Secrets, one of which moves 17+D6", and the Cultists can stay behind to both mind the shop and to make sure no one deep strikes in my behind (much as that would be appropriate for Slaanesh).
I've also got 15 CP to play with, which should be plenty to cause some havoc with fun stratagems. Notably, since I've gone Night Lords, I can Warptime the Daemon Prince into the enemy lines on T1 and then pop the new Stratagem to prevent them from falling back. Similarly, I've got the Contorted Epitome and the Fiends to mess around with no-fallback shenanigans.
Should I be going Night Lords for that Stratagem though, or should I go Emperor's Children for the +2" to the Daemon Prince's move from the stratagem to make my T1 wave more reliable? It'd also let me swap the Daemon Weapon claws for the no Overwatch relic and let me pop the auto-6 stratagem for even more reliable charges.
Flesh Hounds [4 PL, 84pts]: 4x Flesh Hound, Gore Hound
++ Total: [37 PL, 3CP, 600pts] ++
I want to run a Khornate DP no matter what so should I go with the 2x talons with the armor or upgrade to the relic sword?
The talons give him 9 attacks on charge at S9, with the sword he'd be at 7 attacks on the charge but rerolling hits and wounds vs characters at a S10 with a -4/3 damage vs -2/2 damage.
Or you can take the Skullreaver axe and doing MW to stuff that has invul save. Also good vs Armour if anyone is taking leman russes or Dreadnoughts. Too put it simple, I’ve yet to play a game where’s he haven’t done great things for me.
i just read the new Slaanesh article on goonhammer and found this daemon list, which seems to do quite well. I really like the idea of mono Slaneesh daemons, but can sombody explain to me, how it handles flyers / infantry in buildings ?
Basically fliers and infantry in ruins are dealt with via smite, however there is a niche maneuver where you tag the flier in combat via consolidation and have the contorted epitome near by to prevent it from falling back causing it to explode.
In the Legion of Skulls detachment, does the Brazen Skull stratagem act like an assault weapon? Because I would think that anything that puts a hold on bloodletters advancing and charging would be a liability.
I've received GUO as a christmas gift from my wife.
I'm fond of all configs when it comes to what it looks like so wanted to ask whats the best way to put it to use on the table?
Bell + flail, sword + flail or Rotigus?
I always go Sword+Bile Blade or Sword+Flail (swap between the two to mix things up)
I've always found that the Bell is one of those good on paper weapons but half the time won't do anything. Much prefer to drop the GUO via warp strike turn 2 and be a threat to big things like vehicles and other monsters. D6 damage (potential +1 due to locus) with buff support scares even knights.
If you play AoS however, a GUO with Bell is incredibly good!
My advice would be to magnetize all the options. With a bit of green stuff to fill in the gaps in the hands it's very easy to do.
ArcaneHorror wrote: In the Legion of Skulls detachment, does the Brazen Skull stratagem act like an assault weapon? Because I would think that anything that puts a hold on bloodletters advancing and charging would be a liability.
It isnt any type of ranged weapon. You just roll for that models ballistic skill and if you succeed the enemy unit suffers D3 MW. It doesnt matter whether you advanced or not. It also doesnt matter if the legion of skulls model has a ranged weapon, or not (the ranged weapon isnt used for the stratagem). What matters is that it must have a ballistic skill.
I'm planning a mono-Slannesh army. A few questions:
1) Are any of the chariot options good?
2) What's the opinion on Seekers and Fiends?
3) DP's: What's the best loadout as far as relics?
4) Since Daemonettes are so fragile I'm guessing units of 30 is best?
I know mono-Slannesh isn't top tier but I'm building for aesthetics. I like the look of nearly all of Slaanesh models so I'm not building to purely WAAC the army.
I agree with p5freak, now would be the time to wait if your asking about specific things. If your just looking to generally build an army the things you definitely would need would be demonettes and a few deamon princes, maybe a herald. Deamons dont work well as a mono faction army, they just dont. The best way to make them work really is to focus on 1 or 2 loci and use the other units to support that main focus. I am not even talking soup, I mean pure deamons need each other to stand a good chance on the table.
Take a large battalion of different units and things. Then take a supreme command detachment or patrol or something of just slaanesh hq's. This gives those hq's the slaanesh loci that any slaanesh deamons from the bigger detachment can get access to and use. This let's you have a bloodletter bomb or a pink horror tar pit to go with your quick moving advance+charge slaanesh deamons.
Just think of it this way. If you pull only from slaanesh look at how many models your taking from the codex and having access to. I think grey knights have more options than that.
Question of my own, as we wait on the PA content - are you talking just Daemons, or are Heretic Astartes units an option? Maulerfiends, Possessed, Lords Discordant, and CSMDP’s really appreciate Slaaneshi Daemon auras - and Warp talons have become the ultimate counter to overwatch armies like T’au, Iron Hands, and to a certain extent Ultramarines. Word Bearers, Emperors’ Children, Flawless Host and Alpha Legion can bring some seriously strong Daemonkin synergies.
With regards to Fiends versus Seekers - I am a big fan of denying fall back, especially with an army that can execute multiple T1 charges. If I don’t have any in my Chaos list, I’ll usually have a Chaos Lord with a relic that provides the same utility.
So maybee a bit nuts, but i wanted to know, since i am probably going to convert some splintered fangs / paint them in another sheme, and have absolutely no idea how to daemon, how would i make a small decent daemon battalion that works somewhat as a tack on to R&H / CSM?
Any tipps tricks interaction i need to be aware off?
Heralds buff any daemon (engine) with S+1. Thats good for venomcrawlers, they shoot at S9. A herald of slaanesh (in a pure slaanesh detachment) enables a daemon (engine) to charge after advancing. A tzeentch herald can cast flickering flames on a tzeentch daemon engine, for +1 to wound for ranged weapons. A herald of khorne (in a pure khorne detachment) enables a khorne daemon (engine) to reroll charges. There is tons of more interaction with psychic powers, warlord traits, daemonic presence.
ArcaneHorror wrote: In the Legion of Skulls detachment, does the Brazen Skull stratagem act like an assault weapon? Because I would think that anything that puts a hold on bloodletters advancing and charging would be a liability.
It isnt any type of ranged weapon. You just roll for that models ballistic skill and if you succeed the enemy unit suffers D3 MW. It doesnt matter whether you advanced or not. It also doesnt matter if the legion of skulls model has a ranged weapon, or not (the ranged weapon isnt used for the stratagem). What matters is that it must have a ballistic skill.
Thanks, I just didn't want to mess up my charges.
I am currently looking into the skull altar. I had dismissed it for a while as an unnecessary points sink, but I'm rethinking it due to the fact that I am going to be running an army consisting heavily of both regular Khorne daemons, daemon engines, a CSM prince (all of my CSM is Iron Warriors), and a greater possessed, and the altar can buffs these as well. The summoning rule is going to be handy (my unmarked Master of Possession is going to be quite busy). I am curious though, do all psykers have to subtract one from their psychic tests when they are within eight inches of the altar, or just enemy ones? I don't want to accidentally cripple my unmarked MoP and sorcerer.
ArcaneHorror wrote: In the Legion of Skulls detachment, does the Brazen Skull stratagem act like an assault weapon? Because I would think that anything that puts a hold on bloodletters advancing and charging would be a liability.
It isnt any type of ranged weapon. You just roll for that models ballistic skill and if you succeed the enemy unit suffers D3 MW. It doesnt matter whether you advanced or not. It also doesnt matter if the legion of skulls model has a ranged weapon, or not (the ranged weapon isnt used for the stratagem). What matters is that it must have a ballistic skill.
Thanks, I just didn't want to mess up my charges.
I am currently looking into the skull altar. I had dismissed it for a while as an unnecessary points sink, but I'm rethinking it due to the fact that I am going to be running an army consisting heavily of both regular Khorne daemons, daemon engines, a CSM prince (all of my CSM is Iron Warriors), and a greater possessed, and the altar can buffs these as well. The summoning rule is going to be handy (my unmarked Master of Possession is going to be quite busy). I am curious though, do all psykers have to subtract one from their psychic tests when they are within eight inches of the altar, or just enemy ones? I don't want to accidentally cripple my unmarked MoP and sorcerer.
Does it say "Enemy Psykers" or just Psykers? Posting the text of the rule would help us know for sure.
ArcaneHorror wrote: In the Legion of Skulls detachment, does the Brazen Skull stratagem act like an assault weapon? Because I would think that anything that puts a hold on bloodletters advancing and charging would be a liability.
It isnt any type of ranged weapon. You just roll for that models ballistic skill and if you succeed the enemy unit suffers D3 MW. It doesnt matter whether you advanced or not. It also doesnt matter if the legion of skulls model has a ranged weapon, or not (the ranged weapon isnt used for the stratagem). What matters is that it must have a ballistic skill.
Thanks, I just didn't want to mess up my charges.
I am currently looking into the skull altar. I had dismissed it for a while as an unnecessary points sink, but I'm rethinking it due to the fact that I am going to be running an army consisting heavily of both regular Khorne daemons, daemon engines, a CSM prince (all of my CSM is Iron Warriors), and a greater possessed, and the altar can buffs these as well. The summoning rule is going to be handy (my unmarked Master of Possession is going to be quite busy). I am curious though, do all psykers have to subtract one from their psychic tests when they are within eight inches of the altar, or just enemy ones? I don't want to accidentally cripple my unmarked MoP and sorcerer.
Does it say "Enemy Psykers" or just Psykers? Posting the text of the rule would help us know for sure.
'Subtract 1 from Psychic test taken for psykers when within 8" of any skull altars.'
ArcaneHorror wrote: In the Legion of Skulls detachment, does the Brazen Skull stratagem act like an assault weapon? Because I would think that anything that puts a hold on bloodletters advancing and charging would be a liability.
It isnt any type of ranged weapon. You just roll for that models ballistic skill and if you succeed the enemy unit suffers D3 MW. It doesnt matter whether you advanced or not. It also doesnt matter if the legion of skulls model has a ranged weapon, or not (the ranged weapon isnt used for the stratagem). What matters is that it must have a ballistic skill.
Thanks, I just didn't want to mess up my charges.
I am currently looking into the skull altar. I had dismissed it for a while as an unnecessary points sink, but I'm rethinking it due to the fact that I am going to be running an army consisting heavily of both regular Khorne daemons, daemon engines, a CSM prince (all of my CSM is Iron Warriors), and a greater possessed, and the altar can buffs these as well. The summoning rule is going to be handy (my unmarked Master of Possession is going to be quite busy). I am curious though, do all psykers have to subtract one from their psychic tests when they are within eight inches of the altar, or just enemy ones? I don't want to accidentally cripple my unmarked MoP and sorcerer.
Does it say "Enemy Psykers" or just Psykers? Posting the text of the rule would help us know for sure.
'Subtract 1 from Psychic test taken for psykers when within 8" of any skull altars.'
dan2026 wrote: Let's be honest. If you are running psykers in a Khorne army, you are looking for a clip round the ear.
Lol, you're probably right. I justify it fluff-wise in that the Iron Warriors are undivided.
The list below is an extremely fluffy, extremely casual army list that I put together last night; this is not something that I would use competitively. I just wanted to put all of my big Khorne guys together. The single remaining command point will be used to deepstrike in the skullmaster:
Spoiler:
World Eaters Supreme Command Detachment:
Lord Discordant (Khorne) [HQ] [Warlord: Violent Urgency] [Relic: Bloodhunger] Baleflamer, techno-virus injector – 170
Kharn the Betrayer [HQ] – 120
Daemon Prince (Khorne) [HQ]: Malefic talons – 165
Greater Possessed (Khorne): 60
Khorne Daemon Supreme Command Detachment:
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [HQ] [Relic: Armour of Scorn] – 210
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [HQ]: Malefic talons – 165
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [HQ] [Relic – Skullreaver]: Daemonic Axe – 165
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [HQ] [Relic – King of Blades]: Hellforged Sword – 165
Points: 1975
Command points: 1
Not Online!!! wrote: So maybee a bit nuts, but i wanted to know, since i am probably going to convert some splintered fangs / paint them in another sheme, and have absolutely no idea how to daemon, how would i make a small decent daemon battalion that works somewhat as a tack on to R&H / CSM?
Any tipps tricks interaction i need to be aware off?
Well, their poison and swarms aesthetic makes them something of a match for Nurgle, and there’s nothing wrong with a battalion of Plaguebearers and nurglings. Two regiment sets would get you a very useable contingent, providing deep strike / infiltrator screening and a robust meat shield.
Nurgle daemon heroes are fantastic companions to Nurgle daemon CSM hammer units due to their auras and Poxbringer spells. Stack some modifiers to wound and you can get some excellent damage output. Add a Gnarlmaw and you can make daemon engines and possessed advance and fall back and charge (and seriously anchor a front line objective); Oblits love extra damage and +2 cover save and nigh immunity to tarpitting.
If you want a super mobile aura broadcaster, flying DP’s your poison. Swooping in with some Maulerfiends and Lords Discordant is a fierce early game attack.
Not Online!!! wrote: So maybee a bit nuts, but i wanted to know, since i am probably going to convert some splintered fangs / paint them in another sheme, and have absolutely no idea how to daemon, how would i make a small decent daemon battalion that works somewhat as a tack on to R&H / CSM?
Any tipps tricks interaction i need to be aware off?
Well, their poison and swarms aesthetic makes them something of a match for Nurgle, and there’s nothing wrong with a battalion of Plaguebearers and nurglings. Two regiment sets would get you a very useable contingent, providing deep strike / infiltrator screening and a robust meat shield.
Nurgle daemon heroes are fantastic companions to Nurgle daemon CSM hammer units due to their auras and Poxbringer spells. Stack some modifiers to wound and you can get some excellent damage output. Add a Gnarlmaw and you can make daemon engines and possessed advance and fall back and charge (and seriously anchor a front line objective); Oblits love extra damage and +2 cover save and nigh immunity to tarpitting.
If you want a super mobile aura broadcaster, flying DP’s your poison. Swooping in with some Maulerfiends and Lords Discordant is a fierce early game attack.
Just one issue, i ain't nurgle I am khorne or undivided.
Also magmatic Black Look doesn't really fit nurgle.
Are Plague Toads from FW worth it anymore? They seem /super/ overpriced compared to the Beasts of Nurgle, which fills basically the same role as far as I can tell, just with different bonuses and way cheaper.
vaklor4 wrote: Are Plague Toads from FW worth it anymore? They seem /super/ overpriced compared to the Beasts of Nurgle, which fills basically the same role as far as I can tell, just with different bonuses and way cheaper.
Plague Toads are very similar. They do hit much harder than beasts on average. The money is in Plague Riders. I have been using a squad of 9 plague riders to fantastic effect.
Can i use summoning to summon understrenght units, like paying 3 reinforcement points to summon a single brimstone?
Could`t find a clear ruling but would tend to this being not legal.
Anything i have missed here?
grouchoben wrote: Well no, the unit data sheet clearly states the minimum number of models in a unit, I don't see why that limit would be violated by summoning.
There is no minimum number of models in a unit.
Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment. If you are
playing a matched play game, you can only include an
understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment.’
A summoned unit is not part of a detachment, i see nothing saying you cant summon one brimstone horror.
Hello all. I am back with news that I am going to a GT with Mono-Slaanesh! I have only played in one other tournament, which was a doubles with my buddy who plays Tzeentch. We managed to get to the finals table in our first tournament ever and it got me excited to try a bigger, full fledged tournament! I will provide my list and the theory behind it - then provide an update after the tournament on March 14-15!
Why I chose what I chose:
My theory with Slaanesh is that overwhelming speed, waves of forces & pressuring the opponent are the way to win. Particularly since I am likely to encounter less fluffy armies than I am used to that are going to want to castle against me. SO..
Syll'Esske - Obvious. A herald + DP that obliterates things and is made to accompany my Daemonettes. Let's me reroll morale to get models back. Not a whole lot more to say here - Syll'Esske is a must take if you're taking Daemonettes.
Infernal Enrapturess: Only taken because she gives me an even 2k - The Masque put me 8 points over with the new cost from CA19 (lame). But I believe she will provide some pivotal psyker defense and maybe will let me get a model or two back. She will also be great at summoning if I want to save CP on deep striking.
Daemonettes: Bread and butter. Fast and lots of them lets me spread out on objectives while I rush at my opponent. If they get in relatively unmolested it is always game over. Specially since it comes in as a wave of potentially 60 Daemonettes with Syll'Esske.
Seekers: A pressure unit meant to draw fire and worry my opponent, as well as accompany my Keepers. I've noticed people at all levels I have played with are surprised when they actually encounter the speed of my force as a blob. The Keepers + Seekers + Epitome will move a minimum of 14-16" and will advance and charge for an average of 18"+12" charge. Which is a maximum threat range of 34" with the +1 to advance and charge with the musicians.. as well as a free reroll on charges. I don't expect them to kill much (though they have surprised me).
Exalted Chariots: This is where I have had disagreements with fellow Slaanesh players. Everyone considers them garbage but they have done a shocking amount of work for me and they are surprisingly resilient (something this army lacks in general). Combined with how cheap they are - along with their speed - 12"+advance+charge they will be right behind the Seekers & Keepers and ready to pump 16 attacks out a turn. As a blob of 3 - they sit at 36 wounds to chew through. If they aren't dealt with it's 48 attacks coming at you with potential AP -4's for half of them. I treat them as a distraction unit again but they CAN do work if ignored (thus forcing the choice).
Keepers + Shalaxi: Pretty simple. Get them in and let them do their thing - they are absolute monsters in combat. I am imagining having an easy time hiding them with the weird L things that ITC rules have. If not - I can summon or deep strike them. Either way - run up and smash - simple.
Epitome - The attendant to my Keepers and Seekers. Warlord with celerity to assure it keeps up. Forbidden Gem because it's cool and brutal if it works. Just does work and helps out - keeps things stuck in combat if I make it there.
Gameplan: Movement and charge phases win me the game. Use my movement to my advantage, use LOS to my advantage, then pounce with my overwhelming speed. I should have the speed to get up and hide in the L or behind ruins. And also have the speed to get around it and pounce. Yes I know some armies have a unit or two that are faster - but Slaanesh has the entire army able to move at a surprising speed.. but we shall see!
Meta: I have no sense of the meta in my area - and the meta seems to have changed recently anyway. So let's find out together in my report next weekend!
**EDIT** - Does anyone with familiarity with ITC missions have an opinion on what the best deployment map would be for me? I tend to bulk my units up in blobs/waves... so Keepers + Seeekers + Epitome, then Chariots on the flanks, then Daemonettes and rest bunched up as a third wave.
I think Search & Destroy will be my best bet but I welcome ideas.
It looks like a fun list to play!
I’ve tried a similar list with 3 keepers and 3 x 25 bloodletters with some csm camping cultists and it worked wonders. You will have better synergy then me with all Slaanesh.
Just to be clear, you have a list with 2000p so you can NOT summon anything just to save cp on DS. And you can not take out the things you spoke of to do the summoning as the detachment demands. Read the post above yours.
Your biggest problem I can see is IH and Tau with all their shooting, but if they don’t screen good enough you will reach them and start the slaughter.
Personally I would take the “sinister hand” for the keeper just too be able to heal it up and punish the enemy for not killing it.
Then I would change Shalaxi for another keeper with same setup. Don’t know how many points it is but around 20...? So you can take the Masque instead of enrapturess.
Maybe go for 2x30 demonettes and 2x10 for backfield camping so the enemy won’t have any place to DS.
Hope you have a great time and do well!! Come back later with a report!
Tazberry wrote: It looks like a fun list to play!
I’ve tried a similar list with 3 keepers and 3 x 25 bloodletters with some csm camping cultists and it worked wonders. You will have better synergy then me with all Slaanesh.
Just to be clear, you have a list with 2000p so you can NOT summon anything just to save cp on DS. And you can not take out the things you spoke of to do the summoning as the detachment demands. Read the post above yours.
Your biggest problem I can see is IH and Tau with all their shooting, but if they don’t screen good enough you will reach them and start the slaughter.
Personally I would take the “sinister hand” for the keeper just too be able to heal it up and punish the enemy for not killing it.
Then I would change Shalaxi for another keeper with same setup. Don’t know how many points it is but around 20...? So you can take the Masque instead of enrapturess.
Maybe go for 2x30 demonettes and 2x10 for backfield camping so the enemy won’t have any place to DS.
Hope you have a great time and do well!! Come back later with a report!
Oh that's interesting - so I can't just remove the Keepers from play and leave those points as just available. The gap in points has to be preassigned... well deep striking it is then if it comes to that. Thanks for that heads up!
I thought about the hand - but there's a neat trick with the whip just in case I somehow get up in someones face without being too hurt. With the whip I can shoot into melee even if the Keeper is blocked by my swarm of other stuff lol. I'll likely give her the Soul Stealer relic a lot of the time. I know it's -1 str but that's what Shalaxi and Syll'Esske are for.
grouchoben wrote: Well no, the unit data sheet clearly states the minimum number of models in a unit, I don't see why that limit would be violated by summoning.
There is no minimum number of models in a unit.
Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment. If you are
playing a matched play game, you can only include an
understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment.’
A summoned unit is not part of a detachment, i see nothing saying you cant summon one brimstone horror.
Although if you are playing matched play "you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment" (2 sentences after the section in red), so you wouldn't be able to summon only one brimstone. And if you aren't playing matched play, you don't pay points, so why limit yourself to a single model?
Although if you are playing matched play "you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment" (2 sentences after the section in red), so you wouldn't be able to summon only one brimstone. And if you aren't playing matched play, you don't pay points, so why limit yourself to a single model?
Summoned units arent part of a detachment, they are a newly created unit.
Although if you are playing matched play "you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment" (2 sentences after the section in red), so you wouldn't be able to summon only one brimstone. And if you aren't playing matched play, you don't pay points, so why limit yourself to a single model?
Summoned units arent part of a detachment, they are a newly created unit.
Where does it specify that? I looked in the FAQ for the Daemons Codex and did not see it. :(
Although if you are playing matched play "you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment" (2 sentences after the section in red), so you wouldn't be able to summon only one brimstone. And if you aren't playing matched play, you don't pay points, so why limit yourself to a single model?
Summoned units arent part of a detachment, they are a newly created unit.
So long as we're being extremely specific and RAW, if summoned units aren't part of a detachment, then they're evidently not part of an Auxiliary Support Detachment, which is the requirement for being able to use them in a matched play game. That part at least is very clear--no Auxiliary Detachment, no understrength unit.
Although if you are playing matched play "you can only include an understrength unit in an Auxiliary Support Detachment" (2 sentences after the section in red), so you wouldn't be able to summon only one brimstone. And if you aren't playing matched play, you don't pay points, so why limit yourself to a single model?
Summoned units arent part of a detachment, they are a newly created unit.
So long as we're being extremely specific and RAW, if summoned units aren't part of a detachment, then they're evidently not part of an Auxiliary Support Detachment, which is the requirement for being able to use them in a matched play game. That part at least is very clear--no Auxiliary Detachment, no understrength unit.
The FAQ shows that a unit of summoned daemons is not part of a detachment, otherwise you would lose your legion trait. In addition, the summoning rules dont say that summoned units are added to a detachment.
Q: If I take a unit of Daemons in a Chaos Space Marines
Detachment, do I lose my Legion Trait?
A: Yes. However, if you summon a unit of Daemons and
add them to your army, doing so does not affect your
Legion Trait.
Also, detachments are irrelevant after deployment, there are no rules to affect detachments after that point.
But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.
Can’t remember if there’s a faq for pink horrors split rule. So that you DS the pinks and then charge and in overwatch killing a pink making 2 blue horrors and putting them closer to the target and thus only need a 6 or 7 on the charge.
Tazberry wrote: But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.
I remember reading that FAQ, but i just cant find it.
Can’t remember if there’s a faq for pink horrors split rule. So that you DS the pinks and then charge and in overwatch killing a pink making 2 blue horrors and putting them closer to the target and thus only need a 6 or 7 on the charge.
It is indeed possible to place blue and brimstone horrors nearer towards the enemy unit, in unit coherency, but not within 1" of enemy models. If one pink horror is killed, and you split it into two blue horrors you get a 2-3" charge, depending on base size.
Tazberry wrote: But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.
I remember reading that FAQ, but i just cant find it.
Can’t remember if there’s a faq for pink horrors split rule. So that you DS the pinks and then charge and in overwatch killing a pink making 2 blue horrors and putting them closer to the target and thus only need a 6 or 7 on the charge.
It is indeed possible to place blue and brimstone horrors nearer towards the enemy unit, in unit coherency, but not within 1" of enemy models. If one pink horror is killed, and you split it into two blue horrors you get a 2-3" charge, depending on base size.
It is NOT in the Daemons FAQ/Eratta - if you can't find it - is it possible it is either now an out-of-date FAQ that has been removed or it was specific to summoning as CSM?
It makes no sense they wouldn't be part of the detachement or get the Loci rule if pure Daemons summon... Daemons... let alone the rule conundrum - it's unfluffy! lol
Tazberry wrote: But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.
I remember reading that FAQ, but i just cant find it.
Can’t remember if there’s a faq for pink horrors split rule. So that you DS the pinks and then charge and in overwatch killing a pink making 2 blue horrors and putting them closer to the target and thus only need a 6 or 7 on the charge.
It is indeed possible to place blue and brimstone horrors nearer towards the enemy unit, in unit coherency, but not within 1" of enemy models. If one pink horror is killed, and you split it into two blue horrors you get a 2-3" charge, depending on base size.
It is NOT in the Daemons FAQ/Eratta - if you can't find it - is it possible it is either now an out-of-date FAQ that has been removed or it was specific to summoning as CSM?
It makes no sense they wouldn't be part of the detachement or get the Loci rule if pure Daemons summon... Daemons... let alone the rule conundrum - it's unfluffy! lol
Regardless of if there is a FAQ about it, you would need a rule that allows the summoned unit to be added to a detachment. As that does not exist you can't add it to a detachment and get the detachments benifits.
What the rules say, and what "makes sense" often don't line up. For example, adding CSM Daemon Engines to a daemon list breaks loci and other benifits even though "it makes sense" that you would keep them - the rules don't allow it.
So I participated in a GT that was ITC format this weekend and I did.... shockingly well. It was my first tournament as a single player! My only other tournament and time playing ITC was a small doubles tournament.
List:
Spoiler:
Mono-Daemons of Slaanesh
Batallion:
Syll'Esske
Enrapturess
3x 25 Daemonettes
2x 10 Seekers
3x Exalted Chariots
Supreme Command:
Shalaxi
Keeper w/ Whip
Contorted Epitome
Results:
3/5 Games Won.
Opponets:
Game 1: Aeldari/Drukhari/Harlequin soup (one of the better/best players of this soup in the region actually - so I was proud I held my own. Shocker: He ended up on the finalists table haha)
Loss: 28-18
Game 2: Drukari/Aeldari/Ynnari
Won: 32-10
Game 3: Space Wolves/Inquestor Imperialis
Loss: 7-36
Game 4: Tau (Bork'an)
Won: 15-10 (Slow game - but I was on the path to score more. Only got 2 rounds in. Likely would have tabled him).
Game 5: Adeptus Astartes (White Scars)
Won: 39-15
Totals:
BP:111 - W:3 - L: 2
I can write more detailed reports if people are interested.
Please do write more.
Break down units, if they where good/bad and their role. What people tried to focus on and what to think about in certain matches.
You lost vs Aeldari but you still won against another one. Was it that much different list or was the players so different?
What and how do you think you would change the list if you where going again next weekend? And why?
I play in europe so no ITC, just tournaments with CA missions.
My matches was
-orks won 16-4
-tyr won 16-4
-Tau won 12-8
-demons Pb spam+Ts draw 10-10
-Ig lost 8-12
-marines (ultra) lost 6-14
-chaos won 20-0
-eldar won 13-7
-drukari won 18-2
i just can say that PB spam now with new marines have no sense to be played, with all those re roll and volume of lighr fire its an uphill battle, with slaanesh you at least can try to engage early and deliver lot of damage, then epitome helps a lot avoid gunlines can disengage and nuke your units. Perhaps in my opinion a more balanced build can be add a nurgle battalion with 3x3 nurglins and 2 Poxbringers they are quite durable and cheap and let demonettes free to engage anything and dont care about obj control.
blackmage wrote: i just can say that PB spam now with new marines have no sense to be played, with all those re roll and volume of lighr fire its an uphill battle, with slaanesh you at least can try to engage early and deliver lot of damage, then epitome helps a lot avoid gunlines can disengage and nuke your units. Perhaps in my opinion a more balanced build can be add a nurgle battalion with 3x3 nurglins and 2 Poxbringers they are quite durable and cheap and let demonettes free to engage anything and dont care about obj control.
How are you running the Keepers? is the enrapturess for summoning them?
no keepers are on the table, they act like a distraction carnifex, sometimes they wreak havoc sometimes not and let the rest get in melee, enrapturess is there for some extra psychic troubles she can shoot a bit and is a cheap HQ
So it was requested I provide a more detailed breakdown of the ITC Tournament I was in over the past weekend - so here we go. I'll add full list again in spoilers then the breakdown and analysis of the games.
Update: It is hilarious to say but I am now the #1 Slaanesh Daemons player in the world. lol not saying much really but still - thought it was funny enough to share.
List:
Spoiler:
Mono-Daemons of Slaanesh
Batallion:
Syll'Esske
Enrapturess
3x 25 Daemonettes
2x 10 Seekers
3x Exalted Chariots
Supreme Command:
Shalaxi
Keeper w/ Whip
Contorted Epitome
Army Theory: My overall army theory was to have a lot of board control/presence and provide a lot of threats - and double down on each of those threats. Maximum speed is something I knew I needed so I focused on the initial wave of my army having a minimum of 14" movement.
Units:
Syll'Esske: Great unit. DP+Herald buff in one - babysits daemonettes and uses them as a shield until it's lumberjack (choppy choppy) time. Performed great- killed a Canis Rex in combat.
Enrapturess: Originally an HQ unit taken for cost restriction - couldn't take the mask. Performed WAY better than expected - happy to include her again.
Daemonettes: Second waves bread and butter. Great unit - surprisingly choppy and survived a shockingly long time in my games. Basically come in after first wave distracts and swamp opponent.
Seekers: First wave distraction unit. Died a little too easily but tended to do their job - they had to be dealt with. Gave time to Daemonettes and chariots to roll up.
Exalted Chariots: My objective holders + distraction units. Performed great.
Keeper w/whip: The Keeper with whip was -awesome-. I gave her the Soulstealer relic which kept her alive a couple times. Fast and super punchy - nothing bad to say.
Shalaxi: Just an even better Keeper - same as above minus soulstealer.
Contorted Epitome: My MVP. Great unit.. absolutely love it. Was also my Warlord and gave it Celerity of Slaanesh.
What people focused on: It ended up being a mixed bag. I think I benefited from people being unfamiliar with the army other than the "fights first" rule - which everyone seems to think is gimicky/trash but it actually came in handy a number of times during the games.
I explained the army was fast but everyone I faced was surprised by how fast. I always had everything on the board for target saturation and they seemed to go after my Seekers first. I believe they were afraid of my Seekers wrapping their units + an easier kill for the Kill 1 point. They heard toughness 3 and thought easy kill... but it's 20 wounds of 5+ invuln, and I tend to be lucky with saving throws.
Thoughts on Games.
Game 1: My first game was against an Aeldari/Harlequin soup - Just pure jetbike list. He was a very good player who ended up on the finalists table. Had some obnoxious strategems that allowed full reroll hits/wounds on me but I still held my own. Was getting a handle on how ITC works still... I was actually going to table him but I lost in points. We didn't get to finish the game - think I played a little too slow. Made mistakes from just not knowing the army I was fighting - some farseer exploded and killed Syll'Esske and something else.
Game 2: Another Aeldari but Ynnari/Drukhari instead of Harlequin - he had the 3 flyer spam with the swirly ynnari lady. I think his gameplan was to distract with flyers but I just ran past them and engaged him immediately. This is where the mirror shined. It stuck multiple units in combat so they couldn't get away when tagged by my Seekers and Keepers and I just tore through him in a couple turns. Shalaxi personally stabbed the Ynnari special character in the face and obliterated her. Think she did like 24 wounds worth of straight 6 damage to her. I basically picked him apart due to just running past the flyers and him having to turn them around. He probably should have kept them in front of his army.
Game 3: This is where I made two terrible mistakes. One is my fault, the second is not knowing ITC rules. I was defender, we were doing the 9" circle in middle deployment. I had my Keeper w/whip and Shalaxi hugging the wall of the L on my side of the board. He had a Canis Rex come in and apparently you can charge a unit through the impassible wall if they are within 1" of the wall. The wall counts as if they're you - so the enemy just needs to get within 1" of the wall. He annihilated my Shalaxi and then death gripped my Keeper down to like, 6 wounds. The worst part was once it was my turn I realized... THE FORBIDDEN GEM! I forgot to use it and the Mirror was RIGHT THERE. Biggest facepalm moment of the tournament for me - I could have annihilated Rex in that turn and it would have been a completely different game. It really threw me off and I just proceeded to get bushwhacked lol.
Game 4: Not much to note here. I ended up abusing the rule I learned last game with the wall to kill the big flamer yvara thing. Ran up, encircled, stabby stabby. Only got 2 rounds in due to Tau player being slow but it was fine - I was there for fun and we had a great time playing each other.
Game 5: This was the best, most exciting game of the tournament for me. White Scars seriously have some BRUTAL and awesome tricks! It was a very tactical, exciting game. It really came down to him being surprised by my speed - as he was trying to rope me into a trap where I need to come up to fight but he'd charge me first. I got a lucky 6 on an advance roll on his left flank and ended up rolling him up from both sides. He tried to reinforce on the left but then I came in on the right.
How would I change my list?
Honestly - I don't know that I would. The only thing I can think of is removing the Seekers and putting in 3 squads of 3 Fiends... but I think they might die too easily compared to the blob of seekers. But they'd be easier to hide and once they got in on someone they're completely stuck. I didn't run into any moment where I was like "Well - should have brought this unit instead".
i could just play 1 larger blob of seekers 14-15 models and 3 fiends. The list is ok i wont touch anything
Anyway for me better 3+3+3 fiends than 15 seekers at least in my meta, deny fall back is a game changer.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So it was requested I provide a more detailed breakdown of the ITC Tournament I was in over the past weekend - so here we go. I'll add full list again in spoilers then the breakdown and analysis of the games.
Update: It is hilarious to say but I am now the #1 Slaanesh Daemons player in the world. lol not saying much really but still - thought it was funny enough to share.
List:
Spoiler:
Mono-Daemons of Slaanesh
Batallion:
Syll'Esske
Enrapturess
3x 25 Daemonettes
2x 10 Seekers
3x Exalted Chariots
Supreme Command:
Shalaxi
Keeper w/ Whip
Contorted Epitome
Spoiler:
Army Theory: My overall army theory was to have a lot of board control/presence and provide a lot of threats - and double down on each of those threats. Maximum speed is something I knew I needed so I focused on the initial wave of my army having a minimum of 14" movement.
Units:
Syll'Esske: Great unit. DP+Herald buff in one - babysits daemonettes and uses them as a shield until it's lumberjack (choppy choppy) time. Performed great- killed a Canis Rex in combat.
Enrapturess: Originally an HQ unit taken for cost restriction - couldn't take the mask. Performed WAY better than expected - happy to include her again.
Daemonettes: Second waves bread and butter. Great unit - surprisingly choppy and survived a shockingly long time in my games. Basically come in after first wave distracts and swamp opponent.
Seekers: First wave distraction unit. Died a little too easily but tended to do their job - they had to be dealt with. Gave time to Daemonettes and chariots to roll up.
Exalted Chariots: My objective holders + distraction units. Performed great.
Keeper w/whip: The Keeper with whip was -awesome-. I gave her the Soulstealer relic which kept her alive a couple times. Fast and super punchy - nothing bad to say.
Shalaxi: Just an even better Keeper - same as above minus soulstealer.
Contorted Epitome: My MVP. Great unit.. absolutely love it. Was also my Warlord and gave it Celerity of Slaanesh.
What people focused on: It ended up being a mixed bag. I think I benefited from people being unfamiliar with the army other than the "fights first" rule - which everyone seems to think is gimicky/trash but it actually came in handy a number of times during the games.
I explained the army was fast but everyone I faced was surprised by how fast. I always had everything on the board for target saturation and they seemed to go after my Seekers first. I believe they were afraid of my Seekers wrapping their units + an easier kill for the Kill 1 point. They heard toughness 3 and thought easy kill... but it's 20 wounds of 5+ invuln, and I tend to be lucky with saving throws.
Thoughts on Games.
Game 1: My first game was against an Aeldari/Harlequin soup - Just pure jetbike list. He was a very good player who ended up on the finalists table. Had some obnoxious strategems that allowed full reroll hits/wounds on me but I still held my own. Was getting a handle on how ITC works still... I was actually going to table him but I lost in points. We didn't get to finish the game - think I played a little too slow. Made mistakes from just not knowing the army I was fighting - some farseer exploded and killed Syll'Esske and something else.
Game 2: Another Aeldari but Ynnari/Drukhari instead of Harlequin - he had the 3 flyer spam with the swirly ynnari lady. I think his gameplan was to distract with flyers but I just ran past them and engaged him immediately. This is where the mirror shined. It stuck multiple units in combat so they couldn't get away when tagged by my Seekers and Keepers and I just tore through him in a couple turns. Shalaxi personally stabbed the Ynnari special character in the face and obliterated her. Think she did like 24 wounds worth of straight 6 damage to her. I basically picked him apart due to just running past the flyers and him having to turn them around. He probably should have kept them in front of his army.
Game 3: This is where I made two terrible mistakes. One is my fault, the second is not knowing ITC rules. I was defender, we were doing the 9" circle in middle deployment. I had my Keeper w/whip and Shalaxi hugging the wall of the L on my side of the board. He had a Canis Rex come in and apparently you can charge a unit through the impassible wall if they are within 1" of the wall. The wall counts as if they're you - so the enemy just needs to get within 1" of the wall. He annihilated my Shalaxi and then death gripped my Keeper down to like, 6 wounds. The worst part was once it was my turn I realized... THE FORBIDDEN GEM! I forgot to use it and the Mirror was RIGHT THERE. Biggest facepalm moment of the tournament for me - I could have annihilated Rex in that turn and it would have been a completely different game. It really threw me off and I just proceeded to get bushwhacked lol.
Game 4: Not much to note here. I ended up abusing the rule I learned last game with the wall to kill the big flamer yvara thing. Ran up, encircled, stabby stabby. Only got 2 rounds in due to Tau player being slow but it was fine - I was there for fun and we had a great time playing each other.
Game 5: This was the best, most exciting game of the tournament for me. White Scars seriously have some BRUTAL and awesome tricks! It was a very tactical, exciting game. It really came down to him being surprised by my speed - as he was trying to rope me into a trap where I need to come up to fight but he'd charge me first. I got a lucky 6 on an advance roll on his left flank and ended up rolling him up from both sides. He tried to reinforce on the left but then I came in on the right.
How would I change my list?
Honestly - I don't know that I would. The only thing I can think of is removing the Seekers and putting in 3 squads of 3 Fiends... but I think they might die too easily compared to the blob of seekers. But they'd be easier to hide and once they got in on someone they're completely stuck. I didn't run into any moment where I was like "Well - should have brought this unit instead".
Nice!
Hi! New to Daemons. And when I say new I mean I dont have any models yet but i've pored over battlescribe for hours and what I was thinking is very much along the lines of what you have here. Quick question though if you had to convert this list to 1500pts, what would you take out?
I'm coming from Admech so this is a complete opposite mindset for me, which is kind of the idea, change of pace keep things fresh. So there are a lot of things I wont even have considered I suspect!
Is there any way to upgrade a soul grinder's ballistic skill and weapon skill? I know that there are buffs for CSM daemon engines, but I've been looking through the daemon codex and haven't found any. Maybe I missed something.
p5freak wrote: I suggest you wait until engine war comes out, with new rules for daemons, before you buy anything. Should be released next month.
Yeah waiting on the same thing for my Admech force If it turns out I can run a mostly melee force with all the new Admech models they're adding I may not even start, but I do love the Slaanesh aesthetic and they'd be so much easier to paint than all the control panels, can cloaks and mechanised parts lol
I was just interested in what would be left out of that list to make it still fun and viable at 1500pts regardless of what tastiness is added in engine war A melee-centric force,as well as psychic powers, is a new thing for me. Even though Admech has 1 of the most ridiculous cheap good melee units it's not really the same dynamic as I think daemons would offer.
p5freak wrote: I suggest you wait until engine war comes out, with new rules for daemons, before you buy anything. Should be released next month.
Yeah waiting on the same thing for my Admech force If it turns out I can run a mostly melee force with all the new Admech models they're adding I may not even start, but I do love the Slaanesh aesthetic and they'd be so much easier to paint than all the control panels, can cloaks and mechanised parts lol
I was just interested in what would be left out of that list to make it still fun and viable at 1500pts regardless of what tastiness is added in engine war A melee-centric force,as well as psychic powers, is a new thing for me. Even though Admech has 1 of the most ridiculous cheap good melee units it's not really the same dynamic as I think daemons would offer.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So it was requested I provide a more detailed breakdown of the ITC Tournament I was in over the past weekend - so here we go. I'll add full list again in spoilers then the breakdown and analysis of the games.
Update: It is hilarious to say but I am now the #1 Slaanesh Daemons player in the world. lol not saying much really but still - thought it was funny enough to share.
List:
Spoiler:
Mono-Daemons of Slaanesh
Batallion:
Syll'Esske
Enrapturess
3x 25 Daemonettes
2x 10 Seekers
3x Exalted Chariots
Supreme Command:
Shalaxi
Keeper w/ Whip
Contorted Epitome
Spoiler:
Army Theory: My overall army theory was to have a lot of board control/presence and provide a lot of threats - and double down on each of those threats. Maximum speed is something I knew I needed so I focused on the initial wave of my army having a minimum of 14" movement.
Units:
Syll'Esske: Great unit. DP+Herald buff in one - babysits daemonettes and uses them as a shield until it's lumberjack (choppy choppy) time. Performed great- killed a Canis Rex in combat.
Enrapturess: Originally an HQ unit taken for cost restriction - couldn't take the mask. Performed WAY better than expected - happy to include her again.
Daemonettes: Second waves bread and butter. Great unit - surprisingly choppy and survived a shockingly long time in my games. Basically come in after first wave distracts and swamp opponent.
Seekers: First wave distraction unit. Died a little too easily but tended to do their job - they had to be dealt with. Gave time to Daemonettes and chariots to roll up.
Exalted Chariots: My objective holders + distraction units. Performed great.
Keeper w/whip: The Keeper with whip was -awesome-. I gave her the Soulstealer relic which kept her alive a couple times. Fast and super punchy - nothing bad to say.
Shalaxi: Just an even better Keeper - same as above minus soulstealer.
Contorted Epitome: My MVP. Great unit.. absolutely love it. Was also my Warlord and gave it Celerity of Slaanesh.
What people focused on: It ended up being a mixed bag. I think I benefited from people being unfamiliar with the army other than the "fights first" rule - which everyone seems to think is gimicky/trash but it actually came in handy a number of times during the games.
I explained the army was fast but everyone I faced was surprised by how fast. I always had everything on the board for target saturation and they seemed to go after my Seekers first. I believe they were afraid of my Seekers wrapping their units + an easier kill for the Kill 1 point. They heard toughness 3 and thought easy kill... but it's 20 wounds of 5+ invuln, and I tend to be lucky with saving throws.
Thoughts on Games.
Game 1: My first game was against an Aeldari/Harlequin soup - Just pure jetbike list. He was a very good player who ended up on the finalists table. Had some obnoxious strategems that allowed full reroll hits/wounds on me but I still held my own. Was getting a handle on how ITC works still... I was actually going to table him but I lost in points. We didn't get to finish the game - think I played a little too slow. Made mistakes from just not knowing the army I was fighting - some farseer exploded and killed Syll'Esske and something else.
Game 2: Another Aeldari but Ynnari/Drukhari instead of Harlequin - he had the 3 flyer spam with the swirly ynnari lady. I think his gameplan was to distract with flyers but I just ran past them and engaged him immediately. This is where the mirror shined. It stuck multiple units in combat so they couldn't get away when tagged by my Seekers and Keepers and I just tore through him in a couple turns. Shalaxi personally stabbed the Ynnari special character in the face and obliterated her. Think she did like 24 wounds worth of straight 6 damage to her. I basically picked him apart due to just running past the flyers and him having to turn them around. He probably should have kept them in front of his army.
Game 3: This is where I made two terrible mistakes. One is my fault, the second is not knowing ITC rules. I was defender, we were doing the 9" circle in middle deployment. I had my Keeper w/whip and Shalaxi hugging the wall of the L on my side of the board. He had a Canis Rex come in and apparently you can charge a unit through the impassible wall if they are within 1" of the wall. The wall counts as if they're you - so the enemy just needs to get within 1" of the wall. He annihilated my Shalaxi and then death gripped my Keeper down to like, 6 wounds. The worst part was once it was my turn I realized... THE FORBIDDEN GEM! I forgot to use it and the Mirror was RIGHT THERE. Biggest facepalm moment of the tournament for me - I could have annihilated Rex in that turn and it would have been a completely different game. It really threw me off and I just proceeded to get bushwhacked lol.
Game 4: Not much to note here. I ended up abusing the rule I learned last game with the wall to kill the big flamer yvara thing. Ran up, encircled, stabby stabby. Only got 2 rounds in due to Tau player being slow but it was fine - I was there for fun and we had a great time playing each other.
Game 5: This was the best, most exciting game of the tournament for me. White Scars seriously have some BRUTAL and awesome tricks! It was a very tactical, exciting game. It really came down to him being surprised by my speed - as he was trying to rope me into a trap where I need to come up to fight but he'd charge me first. I got a lucky 6 on an advance roll on his left flank and ended up rolling him up from both sides. He tried to reinforce on the left but then I came in on the right.
How would I change my list?
Honestly - I don't know that I would. The only thing I can think of is removing the Seekers and putting in 3 squads of 3 Fiends... but I think they might die too easily compared to the blob of seekers. But they'd be easier to hide and once they got in on someone they're completely stuck. I didn't run into any moment where I was like "Well - should have brought this unit instead".
Nice!
Hi! New to Daemons. And when I say new I mean I dont have any models yet but i've pored over battlescribe for hours and what I was thinking is very much along the lines of what you have here. Quick question though if you had to convert this list to 1500pts, what would you take out?
I'm coming from Admech so this is a complete opposite mindset for me, which is kind of the idea, change of pace keep things fresh. So there are a lot of things I wont even have considered I suspect!
Thanks in advance.
I agree with the post above - should definitely wait until the new Psychic Awakening book, as that may change some things (or not at all lol).
If I had to convert it into a 1500k list though... hrm..
Because I am lazy I'd just drop the Seekers & drop the Daemonettes down to 20 a piece and one to 10.
Quick question, is the start collecting box the only way to get an exalted chariot? Or do people just buy the regular one and exalt-it-up. Pricing up the army and it seems to make sense to get at least 3 start collecting boxes for the daemonettes and chariots...less bothered about the seekers as it looks as though fiends are maybe the better choice for getting in face early...just not sure how you keep them in range of a character to be able to advance and charge...
Octovol wrote: Quick question, is the start collecting box the only way to get an exalted chariot? Or do people just buy the regular one and exalt-it-up. Pricing up the army and it seems to make sense to get at least 3 start collecting boxes for the daemonettes and chariots...less bothered about the seekers as it looks as though fiends are maybe the better choice for getting in face early...just not sure how you keep them in range of a character to be able to advance and charge...
Still learning )
the exalted chariot is made from 2 of the regular chariots and you can get a herald out of it (around $80 canadian). for that price you might as well get the Start collecting (adds a $35 and $40 box of units for a total of $110) the only catch is i don't think the box has the instruction and definitely not the bases if you want to build 2 small chariots
Octovol wrote: Quick question, is the start collecting box the only way to get an exalted chariot? Or do people just buy the regular one and exalt-it-up. Pricing up the army and it seems to make sense to get at least 3 start collecting boxes for the daemonettes and chariots...less bothered about the seekers as it looks as though fiends are maybe the better choice for getting in face early...just not sure how you keep them in range of a character to be able to advance and charge...
Still learning )
i made mine myself with slaanesh seekers heartseekers, tz screamers and SL seekers mounts
Tazberry wrote: But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.
I remember reading that FAQ, but i just cant find it.
Are you thinking of the Poxwalkers FAQ? Similar situation, sets a common sense precedent, not strictly applicable
Tazberry wrote: But there’s a faq (somewhere) that says that a unit that been summoned do not gain detachment bonuses and loci. So if you have a full Slaanesh detachment and summon a character, that character do not give locus so you can advance and charge.
I remember reading that FAQ, but i just cant find it.
Are you thinking of the Poxwalkers FAQ? Similar situation, sets a common sense precedent, not strictly applicable
I remember reading a FAQ that said that a summoned unit is a newly created unit, and not part of a detachment, and doesnt benefit from any detachment bonuses, something like that.
How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.
Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.
Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.
Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.
Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.
Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.
What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?
Unit1126PLL wrote: How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.
Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.
Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.
What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?
A lot of Slaanesh is surprisingly choppy. Even Daemonettes can do a surprising amount of damage to tough targets. That said, Syll'Esske and the Mirror are definitely bigger threats in my opinion, particularly the mirror. I actually used my Keepers as giant shields to defend my mirror. Though I usually bring two to three of them. Slaanesh is able to grab a TON of board control and grab it early on. You can effectively shut down a decent amount of armies by wrapping them with Seekers & having the mirror in there to block them from falling back. It's why people tried to shoot up my Seekers first, the +1 advance & charge and reroll assaults and locking shooty armies in combat was great. Meanwhile - you're grabbing points.
Granted - if you're playing games entirely based on killing each other. Losing the Keeper definitely hurts more.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.
Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.
Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.
What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?
A lot of Slaanesh is surprisingly choppy. Even Daemonettes can do a surprising amount of damage to tough targets. That said, Syll'Esske and the Mirror are definitely bigger threats in my opinion, particularly the mirror. I actually used my Keepers as giant shields to defend my mirror. Though I usually bring two to three of them. Slaanesh is able to grab a TON of board control and grab it early on. You can effectively shut down a decent amount of armies by wrapping them with Seekers & having the mirror in there to block them from falling back. It's why people tried to shoot up my Seekers first, the +1 advance & charge and reroll assaults and locking shooty armies in combat was great. Meanwhile - you're grabbing points.
Granted - if you're playing games entirely based on killing each other. Losing the Keeper definitely hurts more.
No, no, I get all that. I just struggle because the enemy typically puts the little guns into the 'nettes/Fiends (9 wounds at t4 with a 5++ dies fast to bolters)/seekers and the big guns into the Keepers. I haven't run into an enemy who would rather fire lascannons/meltaguns at Seekers/Fiends/'nettes instead of a Keeper. Keepers are actually fairly resilient against these big guns - a 5++ goes a long way against guns that would typically bring it down worse than that with a 3+ save - but not as resilient as is necessary. Lists keyed to take down IG + Knights can handle Slaanesh + Keepers.
I've tried to keep units in combat with the Mirror and Fiends, but the only one I've had success with is the Mirror. Fiends are so squishy that they get shot to pieces, and then the one that makes it in gets beaten to death. The Mirror is better, but not as reliable (ld on a 3d6 is good, but not foolproof). Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.
So we have a bunch of good choppy units and characters that we need to get into combat but some that aren't quite quick enough to do it turn one so we need some fast stuff that's gonna get in their face and tie stuff or offer a more pressing target to save the big stuff being shot at? I like it
Without any real shooty units though, there are so many similar units to compare )
Three obvious options are:
3 x exalted seekers with mirror escort
3 x 5 seekers with mirror escort
3 x 3 fiends...need something with them to allow advance and charge though...herald on seeker chariot?
The obvious answer would be to take 2 of the three anyway, but I have choice blindness, chariots can shoot while in combat, the masque makes everything better especially chariots and daemonettes...
Seems like chariots might be a better choice? More wounds, tougher, better save, more and stronger attacks, I guess you can surround stuff easier with seekers but chariots are cheaper and cooler imo
At first, I thought Fiends might be a better option as they guarantee the inability to fallback...but they're so many more points and stuff that flies can still fall back unaffected whereas the mirror has a chance to prevent even them which would be handy against riptides and the like
Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.
this is why you need to learn how much attacks you want deliver in your turn and wait opponent turn to wipe out units then consolidate and recharge in your turn, fiends and mirror are a great tool to help you achieve that. Slaanesh is not nurgle, you cant demand to soak tons of firepower and win an attriction war, you must play sneaky and cunning, this is why a lot have no success with Slaanesh, it's too difficult to properly play and any mistake can lead to a mess. You need lot of play practice, it's not like play the old 90-120 PB spam+Ts, common in here months ago.
Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.
this is why you need to learn how much attacks you want deliver in your turn and wait opponent turn to wipe out units then consolidate and recharge in your turn, fiends and mirror are a great tool to help you achieve that. Slaanesh is not nurgle, you cant demand to soak tons of firepower and win an attriction war, you must play sneaky and cunning, this is why a lot have no success with Slaanesh, it's too difficult to properly play and any mistake can lead to a mess. You need lot of play practice, it's not like play the old 90-120 PB spam+Ts, common in here months ago.
I know what to do, I just have trouble executing. I'll keep trying and learning, but so far I've failed to execute a "locked in combat" about as much as I've succeeded - 50/50.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How does one keep Keepers of Secrets alive? My opponents seem to focus them down - at least when I go second.
Unless, of course, the highlight of the list is like Syll'Esske with Daemonettes. I could see that being the real damage-dealers, with the keepers being distractions.
Line of sight terrain, warp-surging, but mainly making sure there are enough threats on the board so that if you lose the Keeper it isn't the biggest deal. And if you opponent knows this they may not focus it as hard. You can't think of the Keeper like a Knight where if you lose them, it really hurts.They are both a distraction but also very choppy if they manage to get in. I never play with just one unless it's a fun/casual game as well.
What would you say is a bigger threat to the enemy than a Keeper of Secrets and how do you "play up" that threat?
A lot of Slaanesh is surprisingly choppy. Even Daemonettes can do a surprising amount of damage to tough targets. That said, Syll'Esske and the Mirror are definitely bigger threats in my opinion, particularly the mirror. I actually used my Keepers as giant shields to defend my mirror. Though I usually bring two to three of them. Slaanesh is able to grab a TON of board control and grab it early on. You can effectively shut down a decent amount of armies by wrapping them with Seekers & having the mirror in there to block them from falling back. It's why people tried to shoot up my Seekers first, the +1 advance & charge and reroll assaults and locking shooty armies in combat was great. Meanwhile - you're grabbing points.
Granted - if you're playing games entirely based on killing each other. Losing the Keeper definitely hurts more.
No, no, I get all that. I just struggle because the enemy typically puts the little guns into the 'nettes/Fiends (9 wounds at t4 with a 5++ dies fast to bolters)/seekers and the big guns into the Keepers. I haven't run into an enemy who would rather fire lascannons/meltaguns at Seekers/Fiends/'nettes instead of a Keeper. Keepers are actually fairly resilient against these big guns - a 5++ goes a long way against guns that would typically bring it down worse than that with a 3+ save - but not as resilient as is necessary. Lists keyed to take down IG + Knights can handle Slaanesh + Keepers.
I've tried to keep units in combat with the Mirror and Fiends, but the only one I've had success with is the Mirror. Fiends are so squishy that they get shot to pieces, and then the one that makes it in gets beaten to death. The Mirror is better, but not as reliable (ld on a 3d6 is good, but not foolproof). Lastly, my units are so good in combat that they typically murderhatedestroy the enemy unit in question. You don't have to fall back fighting a Keeper - the Keeper probably vaporized the unit it swung at, and your lines are more than 3" apart playing against Slaanesh. Even if they don't (i.e. it's a huge unit) they take enough casualties that they can pull so the unit is more than 6" from the Mirror - I've had that happen to me at least once.
Tips would be appreciated; I want to improve.
I see what you're saying now. I'll break this up into a few points - though it looks like Blackmage covered one of my points already.
1. Everything discussed here is assuming you're playing with a decent amount of LOS blocking terrain. If you're playing with an open field - there's not a whole lot our suggestions will do to mitigate being shot off the board haha. I usually stress this because everyones gaming environment is different but two big LOS blocking pieces are the norm - even for narrative style games... actually narrative normally will have more, depending on what is happening. It's a moot conversation if you're unable to be crafty - which as Blackmage said, is kinda required for Slaanesh.
2. That said - if you're playing Slaanesh, don't view the combat phase as where you will win the game. If you make contact - you will kill something or at least hurt it generally. Slaanesh wins the game in the movement phases. So the critical phases are - Deployment, Movement, Charge, Pile-in, Consolidate. Knowing the rules for these phases are critical. You can get an extra 6" of movement in the combat phase and you need to use it to your advantage to swing in to make contact with the next line if possible. It can feel a little gamey in narrative style games but just imagine waves of sprinting daemons crashing over the enemy in waves if that helps. This includes placing objectives - if you're Slaanesh, place them in forward positions as much as possible as you know you'll be moving up. Don't backline if you can avoid it.
3. Redunancy and board presence will be my last point. This thought is why I did not subscribe to the idea some people had when I posted my list for my GT to cut one of my Daemonette squads down to 10 or so and boost the others to 30. Everything we have is cheap and if it's worth bringing one - it's worth bringing multiples (with obvious exceptions). Want a Keeper? Bring 2-3 - Exalted Chariot? 2-3. Daemonette blobs? 3 of 20+. Yes - stuff will die. But with redundancy - you should have enough stuff on the board that it is difficult to shoot off, particularly since everything gets an invulnerable save. Especially if you get first turn - push EVERYTHING up as a single wave. The way I've gone about this is to deploy in deliberate waves. I have contingents of the army moving 14" base, then 12" base, then the infantry moving 7-9" base. Biggest numbers go first, all packed together. Create an over overwhelming board presence - even if they kill the first wave, the second and third wave is not far behind (if at all behind). Because Slaanesh can put so much on the board it can be daunting to kill it all - obviously it happens but we're discussing trying to mitigate it. Use LOS as you can when moving the wave up btw.
This way, when you do get in, you're beginning to swamp them - you're not relying on a unit or two to hold them in combat.
Hope this is more what you were looking for. If not I can try to elaborate again.
That is very helpful, thank you! I will reconsider my lists, but it sounds like I just have to do better.
The LOS blocking terrain is a big problem. Our store doesn't use ITC rules, the ruins have windows, etc. Essentially, 0 terrain pieces block a Keeper of Secrets.
EDIT:
Also another point on listbuilding - with 90 Daemonettes, would you suggest 3x20 in one BN and 3x10 in another? I know that violates your unit size mentioning, but IDK if I want to run 120 daemonettes. I'd still like the CP for 2x BN.
Unit1126PLL wrote: That is very helpful, thank you! I will reconsider my lists, but it sounds like I just have to do better.
The LOS blocking terrain is a big problem. Our store doesn't use ITC rules, the ruins have windows, etc. Essentially, 0 terrain pieces block a Keeper of Secrets.
EDIT:
Also another point on listbuilding - with 90 Daemonettes, would you suggest 3x20 in on BN and 3x10? I know that violates your unit size mentioning, but IDK if I want to run 120 daemonettes. I'd still like the CP for 2x BN.
Ah - yeah the LOS thing is an issue. Particularly since this edition favors shooting so much.
As for the 90 Daemonettes. I'm not sure what BN is - but my suggestion would be 3 squads of 30 if you have 90. Or 3 of 25. At 20 it just lets them get knocked down below the 20 threshold immediately. They have to sink a little more fire into them with the 25-30 range. Though I tend to roll obnoxiously well on my saves haha.
Unit1126PLL wrote: That is very helpful, thank you! I will reconsider my lists, but it sounds like I just have to do better.
The LOS blocking terrain is a big problem. Our store doesn't use ITC rules, the ruins have windows, etc. Essentially, 0 terrain pieces block a Keeper of Secrets.
EDIT:
Also another point on listbuilding - with 90 Daemonettes, would you suggest 3x20 in on BN and 3x10? I know that violates your unit size mentioning, but IDK if I want to run 120 daemonettes. I'd still like the CP for 2x BN.
Ah - yeah the LOS thing is an issue. Particularly since this edition favors shooting so much.
As for the 90 Daemonettes. I'm not sure what BN is - but my suggestion would be 3 squads of 30 if you have 90. Or 3 of 25. At 20 it just lets them get knocked down below the 20 threshold immediately. They have to sink a little more fire into them with the 25-30 range. Though I tend to roll obnoxiously well on my saves haha.
BN means Battalion, sorry, lol.
I have a few more than 90 but motivation to paint plummets after nearly 100
Not to double post, but I think I want to try a double-battalion list.
One unit of 3 fiends, 2 Keepers, 2 Heralds, Mirror, Syll'esske, 120 daemonettes (is 6x20 enough? I know you said to run more than 20 but I am using the Diaz 'ettes and I only have 120 D.
The other option is to drop to 10 Daemonettes for 3 of the squads, but I agree that 10 nette squads are generally derpy.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Not to double post, but I think I want to try a double-battalion list.
One unit of 3 fiends, 2 Keepers, 2 Heralds, Mirror, Syll'esske, 120 daemonettes (is 6x20 enough? I know you said to run more than 20 but I am using the Diaz 'ettes and I only have 120 D.
The other option is to drop to 10 Daemonettes for 3 of the squads, but I agree that 10 nette squads are generally derpy.
I don't really see the benefit of bringing so many daemonettes. especially since you leave the keepers wide open for anti tank weapons and you don't have a single non character able to tie up gunlines. if your set on 2 batallions i'd make a cheap undivided one with characters that don't really need the locus (i.e entrapturess) or a useful non slaanesh HQ unit and some nurglings or brimstones. Mono daemons only really have about 1/3 to 1/2 of a codex worth of strategems at their disposal anyway, let alone the number of good strategems. If you want pure slaanesh i think you should get an outrider or spearhead of seekers, chariots, or a combination, and maybe a supreme command for the characters in addition to the batallion.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Not to double post, but I think I want to try a double-battalion list.
One unit of 3 fiends, 2 Keepers, 2 Heralds, Mirror, Syll'esske, 120 daemonettes (is 6x20 enough? I know you said to run more than 20 but I am using the Diaz 'ettes and I only have 120 D.
The other option is to drop to 10 Daemonettes for 3 of the squads, but I agree that 10 nette squads are generally derpy.
I don't really see the benefit of bringing so many daemonettes. especially since you leave the keepers wide open for anti tank weapons and you don't have a single non character able to tie up gunlines. if your set on 2 batallions i'd make a cheap undivided one with characters that don't really need the locus (i.e entrapturess) or a useful non slaanesh HQ unit and some nurglings or brimstones. Mono daemons only really have about 1/3 to 1/2 of a codex worth of strategems at their disposal anyway, let alone the number of good strategems. If you want pure slaanesh i think you should get an outrider or spearhead of seekers, chariots, or a combination, and maybe a supreme command for the characters in addition to the batallion.
Gotcha. The reason I am so obsessed with double BAT is that it makes the Warp Surge stratagem less painful to use, plus some of the Slaanesh stratagems are quite good (like the one that gives -1 attack near a character). The psychic possession one is good too if you can make your enemy perils with a Enrapturess.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Not to double post, but I think I want to try a double-battalion list.
One unit of 3 fiends, 2 Keepers, 2 Heralds, Mirror, Syll'esske, 120 daemonettes (is 6x20 enough? I know you said to run more than 20 but I am using the Diaz 'ettes and I only have 120 D.
The other option is to drop to 10 Daemonettes for 3 of the squads, but I agree that 10 nette squads are generally derpy.
I don't really see the benefit of bringing so many daemonettes. especially since you leave the keepers wide open for anti tank weapons and you don't have a single non character able to tie up gunlines. if your set on 2 batallions i'd make a cheap undivided one with characters that don't really need the locus (i.e entrapturess) or a useful non slaanesh HQ unit and some nurglings or brimstones. Mono daemons only really have about 1/3 to 1/2 of a codex worth of strategems at their disposal anyway, let alone the number of good strategems. If you want pure slaanesh i think you should get an outrider or spearhead of seekers, chariots, or a combination, and maybe a supreme command for the characters in addition to the batallion.
Gotcha. The reason I am so obsessed with double BAT is that it makes the Warp Surge stratagem less painful to use, plus some of the Slaanesh stratagems are quite good (like the one that gives -1 attack near a character). The psychic possession one is good too if you can make your enemy perils with a Enrapturess.
I don't know how deadset you are on staying monocodex but adding a battallion of red corsairs would solve all your CP needs. And they are pretty fitting with slaanesh since they can also advance + charge
Unit1126PLL wrote: Not to double post, but I think I want to try a double-battalion list.
One unit of 3 fiends, 2 Keepers, 2 Heralds, Mirror, Syll'esske, 120 daemonettes (is 6x20 enough? I know you said to run more than 20 but I am using the Diaz 'ettes and I only have 120 D.
The other option is to drop to 10 Daemonettes for 3 of the squads, but I agree that 10 nette squads are generally derpy.
I don't really see the benefit of bringing so many daemonettes. especially since you leave the keepers wide open for anti tank weapons and you don't have a single non character able to tie up gunlines. if your set on 2 batallions i'd make a cheap undivided one with characters that don't really need the locus (i.e entrapturess) or a useful non slaanesh HQ unit and some nurglings or brimstones. Mono daemons only really have about 1/3 to 1/2 of a codex worth of strategems at their disposal anyway, let alone the number of good strategems. If you want pure slaanesh i think you should get an outrider or spearhead of seekers, chariots, or a combination, and maybe a supreme command for the characters in addition to the batallion.
Gotcha. The reason I am so obsessed with double BAT is that it makes the Warp Surge stratagem less painful to use, plus some of the Slaanesh stratagems are quite good (like the one that gives -1 attack near a character). The psychic possession one is good too if you can make your enemy perils with a Enrapturess.
I don't know how deadset you are on staying monocodex but adding a battallion of red corsairs would solve all your CP needs. And they are pretty fitting with slaanesh since they can also advance + charge
I have considered this, and even have a battalion of 3x 5 CSM, warpsmith, master of possession, and 3x Defilers. But eh. The defilers are great, but take some doing to make them work (though they're WAAAAAAY better than soul grinders). Monodex would be fun if I could make it work tho.
ok so sure you need a large amount of troops. If i play now GWCA i would add a cheap nurgle battalion with 2x poxbringers and 3x3 nurglings, let the nettes die and assault enemy lines keep them busy and let nurgle score points on objectives, my 2 cents.
more or less a thing like this
blackmage wrote: ok so sure you need a large amount of troops. If i play now GWCA i would add a cheap nurgle battalion with 2x poxbringers and 3x3 nurglings, let the nettes die and assault enemy lines keep them busy and let nurgle score points on objectives, my 2 cents.
more or less a thing like this
blackmage wrote: ok so sure you need a large amount of troops. If i play now GWCA i would add a cheap nurgle battalion with 2x poxbringers and 3x3 nurglings, let the nettes die and assault enemy lines keep them busy and let nurgle score points on objectives, my 2 cents.
more or less a thing like this
Unit1126PLL wrote: Not to double post, but I think I want to try a double-battalion list.
One unit of 3 fiends, 2 Keepers, 2 Heralds, Mirror, Syll'esske, 120 daemonettes (is 6x20 enough? I know you said to run more than 20 but I am using the Diaz 'ettes and I only have 120 D.
The other option is to drop to 10 Daemonettes for 3 of the squads, but I agree that 10 nette squads are generally derpy.
I don't really see the benefit of bringing so many daemonettes. especially since you leave the keepers wide open for anti tank weapons and you don't have a single non character able to tie up gunlines. if your set on 2 batallions i'd make a cheap undivided one with characters that don't really need the locus (i.e entrapturess) or a useful non slaanesh HQ unit and some nurglings or brimstones. Mono daemons only really have about 1/3 to 1/2 of a codex worth of strategems at their disposal anyway, let alone the number of good strategems. If you want pure slaanesh i think you should get an outrider or spearhead of seekers, chariots, or a combination, and maybe a supreme command for the characters in addition to the batallion.
Gotcha. The reason I am so obsessed with double BAT is that it makes the Warp Surge stratagem less painful to use, plus some of the Slaanesh stratagems are quite good (like the one that gives -1 attack near a character). The psychic possession one is good too if you can make your enemy perils with a Enrapturess.
I don't know how deadset you are on staying monocodex but adding a battallion of red corsairs would solve all your CP needs. And they are pretty fitting with slaanesh since they can also advance + charge
I have considered this, and even have a battalion of 3x 5 CSM, warpsmith, master of possession, and 3x Defilers. But eh. The defilers are great, but take some doing to make them work (though they're WAAAAAAY better than soul grinders). Monodex would be fun if I could make it work tho.
If you’re going Slaanesh Daemonkin and not taking a Warptimer, avoid Defilers. Their dakka is mostly Heavy and lacks synergy with the Locus of Swiftness. Venomcrawlers and Lords Discordant don’t waste their guns when they advance, and Maulerfiends don’t have guns to waste. Maulers & Crawlers also have M10, which with a Soulforged Pack and LoS and a couple of rerolls is enough for T1 charges. A couple of DEs and some Fiends of Slaanesh reaching the enemy line before it shoots can start the dominoes toppling for you right at the start.
blackmage wrote: ok so sure you need a large amount of troops. If i play now GWCA i would add a cheap nurgle battalion with 2x poxbringers and 3x3 nurglings, let the nettes die and assault enemy lines keep them busy and let nurgle score points on objectives, my 2 cents.
more or less a thing like this
Recently i've been thinking a tzeentch herald would be a good choice for those small nurgling battalions. for 8 more points you can get gaze of fate for a free reroll per turn, which RAW can be used on any dice for your army regardless of allegiance. And nurgles locus is useless in such a batallion anyway. in your list drop the 30 daemonette unit to a 29 daemonette unit and you can fit the herald in place of the nurgle herald
I really hope that the bloodthirsters get an update to their rules. Compared to the stuff that the other greater daemons get, especially the keeper of secrets, their abilities seem paltry. Maybe they could get more auras, other attacks like biting and punching, or more flame attacks. The insensate rage version definitely needs more to be viable.
Since CA i've been having tons of fun with a full squad of flamers with a herald on disk gving them flickering flames. They pretty much delete anything i point them at and their profile lets me play plenty of tricks with them, tying stuff in combat with them, then flaming away on my turn to charge something else feels awesome.
Also, Exalted flamers are juste busted for their cost, i really have to get myself at least 4 more.
blackmage wrote: ok so sure you need a large amount of troops. If i play now GWCA i would add a cheap nurgle battalion with 2x poxbringers and 3x3 nurglings, let the nettes die and assault enemy lines keep them busy and let nurgle score points on objectives, my 2 cents.
more or less a thing like this
Recently i've been thinking a tzeentch herald would be a good choice for those small nurgling battalions. for 8 more points you can get gaze of fate for a free reroll per turn, which RAW can be used on any dice for your army regardless of allegiance. And nurgles locus is useless in such a batallion anyway. in your list drop the 30 daemonette unit to a 29 daemonette unit and you can fit the herald in place of the nurgle herald
you sure right, that list come from an original list where i play 30 Pb so then the poxbringer.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Not to double post, but I think I want to try a double-battalion list.
One unit of 3 fiends, 2 Keepers, 2 Heralds, Mirror, Syll'esske, 120 daemonettes (is 6x20 enough? I know you said to run more than 20 but I am using the Diaz 'ettes and I only have 120 D.
The other option is to drop to 10 Daemonettes for 3 of the squads, but I agree that 10 nette squads are generally derpy.
I don't really see the benefit of bringing so many daemonettes. especially since you leave the keepers wide open for anti tank weapons and you don't have a single non character able to tie up gunlines. if your set on 2 batallions i'd make a cheap undivided one with characters that don't really need the locus (i.e entrapturess) or a useful non slaanesh HQ unit and some nurglings or brimstones. Mono daemons only really have about 1/3 to 1/2 of a codex worth of strategems at their disposal anyway, let alone the number of good strategems. If you want pure slaanesh i think you should get an outrider or spearhead of seekers, chariots, or a combination, and maybe a supreme command for the characters in addition to the batallion.
Gotcha. The reason I am so obsessed with double BAT is that it makes the Warp Surge stratagem less painful to use, plus some of the Slaanesh stratagems are quite good (like the one that gives -1 attack near a character). The psychic possession one is good too if you can make your enemy perils with a Enrapturess.
I don't know how deadset you are on staying monocodex but adding a battallion of red corsairs would solve all your CP needs. And they are pretty fitting with slaanesh since they can also advance + charge
I have considered this, and even have a battalion of 3x 5 CSM, warpsmith, master of possession, and 3x Defilers. But eh. The defilers are great, but take some doing to make them work (though they're WAAAAAAY better than soul grinders). Monodex would be fun if I could make it work tho.
If you’re going Slaanesh Daemonkin and not taking a Warptimer, avoid Defilers. Their dakka is mostly Heavy and lacks synergy with the Locus of Swiftness. Venomcrawlers and Lords Discordant don’t waste their guns when they advance, and Maulerfiends don’t have guns to waste. Maulers & Crawlers also have M10, which with a Soulforged Pack and LoS and a couple of rerolls is enough for T1 charges. A couple of DEs and some Fiends of Slaanesh reaching the enemy line before it shoots can start the dominoes toppling for you right at the start.
I usually bring a warptimer using the Chaos Familiar Stratagem on the master of possession
So I've got into TTS, which so far has been pretty great. Clunkier than physically playing, but I can still play while at home!
Because of this, I can build literally any list I want!
Daemon Battalion Enrapturess
Epitome
Skullreaver with Wings
6x3 Nurglings
I think it would be fun for my opponent to see how fast he can kill Brimstones and Nurglings. My damage output is pretty lousy. Skullreaver will murder a single target and then get massacred. The Epitome might be able to kill two targets but that's it. The Enrapturess (combined with super Perils) could pick off some characters.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Since CA i've been having tons of fun with a full squad of flamers with a herald on disk gving them flickering flames. They pretty much delete anything i point them at and their profile lets me play plenty of tricks with them, tying stuff in combat with them, then flaming away on my turn to charge something else feels awesome.
Also, Exalted flamers are juste busted for their cost, i really have to get myself at least 4 more.
Do you not play with the rule of 3? I have 4 but never get to use them all. Burning Chariots are decent but nowhere near as survivable.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Since CA i've been having tons of fun with a full squad of flamers with a herald on disk gving them flickering flames. They pretty much delete anything i point them at and their profile lets me play plenty of tricks with them, tying stuff in combat with them, then flaming away on my turn to charge something else feels awesome.
Also, Exalted flamers are juste busted for their cost, i really have to get myself at least 4 more.
Do you not play with the rule of 3? I have 4 but never get to use them all. Burning Chariots are decent but nowhere near as survivable.
rule of 3 only counts for the models in your list. I plan on summoning more during the game , so i can go up to 6
There is no rule of 3. Its a suggestion for organized play. If you and your opponent dont agree to use it, or there is a house rule which says to use it, its not in play.
p5freak wrote: There is no rule of 3. Its a suggestion for organized play. If you and your opponent dont agree to use it, or there is a house rule which says to use it, its not in play.
yeah, i know. I just stopped arguing with people and i assume everyone doing matched play uses that suggestion as a rule.
I still struggle with the various soup rules. If I take a Slaanesh Daemon Prince in a detachment that is all Slaanesh daemons then I don't lose anything, right? I still count as Battleforged, I still get the loci, and in fact the Daemon Prince gets a locus on himself?
Is this a good idea, or would it make way more sense to put him in a separate patrol detachment with cheap cultists to get access to Chaos Marine statagems?
If all your units in that slaanesh detachment are from Codex daemons you get the locus and you are battleforged.
If you add another detachment of CSM, with all units from the codex CSM only, they get their legion trait and you are still battleforged. Your detachments need to be pure, to get as all the bonuses.
p5freak wrote: If all your units in that slaanesh detachment are from Codex daemons you get the locus and you are battleforged.
If you add another detachment of CSM, with all units from the codex CSM only, they get their legion trait and you are still battleforged. Your detachments need to be pure, to get as all the bonuses.
Ah, I forgot Daemon Princes have their own entry in the Daemons codex as well as in CSM That makes sense then, thanks
That makes sense then, thanks