Worth noting that CSMDP’s have got Space Marine training, and instead of first striking and a Locus of charging after advancing, get +1A on the charge and a Legion trait for being in a pure detachment, plus access to different relics and a Hereticus spell
Flawless Host in particular have the ability to become an absolute blender
Yeah, I'm thinking that the legion abilities are probably going to work out better. I forgot about Flawless Host but that is certainly worth bearing in mind
I don't have any cultist models though, and I feel like the Flawless Host would have a better class of degenerates than the standard 'burly bloke with spiked club'. Maybe some Daughters of Khaine or something would work
Yeah, I wasn't really looking to create a split CSM / Daemon army, just wanted to see if it was worth throwing some cheap cultists in as a tax to allow me to use the CSM Daemon Prince rules. I reckon Hateful Assault alone probably makes it worth doing. The cultists can go die on an objective somewhere
I wasn't sure if I should post it here or in the CSM thread but I need some advice on summoning daemons. The army I'm building is primarily a Word Bearer CSM list but with a sizable chunk of points allocated to a Slaanesh Daemons detachment because they are so damn cool. I was considering leaving some points open instead and just summon the daemons I need instead but I'm not sure the best way.
There is just regular summoning which can be boosted with a stratagem.
There is the Master of Possession who can summon with a power, that sounds good since you can advance turn 1 and still drop stuff but obviously costs extra points and the other abilities don't seem super useful.
Then there's the idea of taking a supreme command with 3 Infernal Enrapuress or two with a herald for the +3 Summoning.
Any advice? Is it worth dedicating the points to the characters or better to stay basic?
Yziel wrote: I wasn't sure if I should post it here or in the CSM thread but I need some advice on summoning daemons. The army I'm building is primarily a Word Bearer CSM list but with a sizable chunk of points allocated to a Slaanesh Daemons detachment because they are so damn cool. I was considering leaving some points open instead and just summon the daemons I need instead but I'm not sure the best way.
There is just regular summoning which can be boosted with a stratagem.
There is the Master of Possession who can summon with a power, that sounds good since you can advance turn 1 and still drop stuff but obviously costs extra points and the other abilities don't seem super useful.
Then there's the idea of taking a supreme command with 3 Infernal Enrapuress or two with a herald for the +3 Summoning.
Any advice? Is it worth dedicating the points to the characters or better to stay basic?
Word Bearer who really wants summoning to be viable, here.
Don’t bother with it with Summoning in its present form.
The Daemonic Possession strat is a brilliant asset that requires your army to contain a CD detachment. The Locus of Swiftness is an incredibly powerful asset for a Daemonkin force. A Slaaneshi SC is definitely a viable way to add these, but I’d recommend a variety of heroes in it - the Contorted Epitome is brilliant in general, and a hard counter to niche Smite lists.
Slaaneshi Daemons are all about using that Swiftness for running fast into easy charge range, creating them over 9” away means they usually fail their charges. So even if a summon is doable, it’s usually better to have deployed the unit at the start of the game.
A WB MoP does have unique summoning capability. It is best employed to advance him forwards and drop a super tough distraction in your opponent’s face that’s usually too slow to get there in time - usually Beasts of Nurgle, or a GUO or Soulgrinder - or a horde of Pink Horrors that don’t want to lose firepower to advancing or losing first turn. Even then, it’s still a gimmick that’s easily shut down by common anti psyker Strategems or DS blockers.
I'm still pretty much a beginner myself but from what I have heard, summining is generally pretty bad. It has a lot of drawbacks and doesn't really give you any advantages, especially with the likes of Slaanesh daemons that have great mobility anyway. It is safer and more convenient to just start them on the table, or to pay command points to warp them in.
Summoning can be useful if you have unaligned characters who can summon daemons from any dark god based on your current needs but otherwise it is usually just an unecessary hassle.
I'm hoping Pink and Blue Horrors get a brotherhood of sorcerer like ability. While I hope that summoning gets a AoS like mechanic, I imagine that will not be coming until 9th Edition. I also really hope we can dust off our greater daemons for a change (that aren't Slaneshi). Anything beyond that and some decent reprints of other factions' stratagems seems unlikely.
Hopefully some better spells? And reasons to use non-troops units from the daemons book?
I expect nothing good. 3 pages of new rules for each god is ridiculous, 2 pages are for the exalted daemon, leaving 1 page for new rules like stratagems, loci, etc.
I just want flesh hounds, plague drones and screamers to be worth considering again. And if we’re wish listing I want a damn Nurgle herald on a plague drone that we’ve been crying about for all these years. And in general just bring some flavor back to the army. In 6th and 7th, despite their flaws, daemons struck me as having some of the fluffiest rules on the table top whereas throughout 8th they’ve been one of the most boring factions.
In AoS they have stuff like Depravity Points to make things a little more interesting. I don't see them actually implementing any new systems like that though.
Hopefully some better spells? And reasons to use non-troops units from the daemons book?
I expect nothing good. 3 pages of new rules for each god is ridiculous, 2 pages are for the exalted daemon, leaving 1 page for new rules like stratagems, loci, etc.
Do we have an idea of what an "exalted daemon" is? Because man, if it's just a more expensive greater daemon that will be a let down.
Hopefully some better spells? And reasons to use non-troops units from the daemons book?
I expect nothing good. 3 pages of new rules for each god is ridiculous, 2 pages are for the exalted daemon, leaving 1 page for new rules like stratagems, loci, etc.
Do we have an idea of what an "exalted daemon" is? Because man, if it's just a more expensive greater daemon that will be a let down.
slave.entity wrote: Huh, Engine War not looking great for daemons so far. Pretty much what I expected.
For 1CP GD's can be upgraded and have a possible 6 choices of new abilities, 1 of each was only shown so 5 more we don't know.
Fleshhounds for 1CP get faster being able to advance and charge plus 2" if anything dies in psychic and/or shooting phase (not units, just models). Tough for mono-khorne but for Daemon soup with Tzeentch or Nurgle casters/shooting that's almost assuredly doable.
Fiends being more horrific (pardon the pun) in the morale phase with an auto -2 plus kills determining casualties to morale (3-6 fiends should literally destroy a unit through melee and morale).
Flamers causing mortal wounds on 6's in addition to other damage. Granted 1D6 per Flamer can lead to triple 1's or hexa 6's for number of shots but it can also lead to 18-36 shots almost guaranteeing a couple of mortals.
The new Nurgle relic is nice too. I seem to roll lots of 7's with my Nurgle casters so being rewarded for rolling 7's and knowing an additional spell (for free, 1 CP if you use your free Relic choice to get something else) seems really good to me.
Until we know all the relics and new stratagems and the stats for the Exalted upgrade (I'm assuming there is a stat boost or maybe it's just the new abilities) and the other 5 EGD abilities for each of the 4 GD's that aren't covered in the snippet article it's too early to burn your daemon army and call it useless.
The Blood-Drinker Talisman does look it might be a solid replacement for the Armour of Scorn for bloodthirsters, so long as deep-striking is done. Slaughterborn looks great as well.
Not one thing really increases the durability of Greater Daemons, which is their primary weakness. Regaining a wound here or there doesn't help much if they are easily blasted off the board turn 1 or with Auspex Scan. There are some good bits in there, and I really like the flamer strat, but my optimism has been curbed pretty hard based on what we've seen so far. I like the idea of Lords of Change turning off auras, but when do you take a Big Bird in for close combat?
Vortenger wrote: Not one thing really increases the durability of Greater Daemons, which is their primary weakness. Regaining a wound here or there doesn't help much if they are easily blasted off the board turn 1 or with Auspex Scan. There are some good bits in there, and I really like the flamer strat, but my optimism has been curbed pretty hard based on what we've seen so far. I like the idea of Lords of Change turning off auras, but when do you take a Big Bird in for close combat?
Lord of Change being able to permanently turn off a psychic power by denying it is pretty sweet too, but I agree none of this really fixes the core reasons why you don't see Greater Daemons (or hell flesh hounds, plague drones, screamers or so many other units) in competitive lists. Maybe some of the other exalted traits will be eye popping, but who knows. Just gotta wait and see.
Vortenger wrote: Not one thing really increases the durability of Greater Daemons, which is their primary weakness. Regaining a wound here or there doesn't help much if they are easily blasted off the board turn 1 or with Auspex Scan. There are some good bits in there, and I really like the flamer strat, but my optimism has been curbed pretty hard based on what we've seen so far. I like the idea of Lords of Change turning off auras, but when do you take a Big Bird in for close combat?
Lord of Change being able to permanently turn off a psychic power by denying it is pretty sweet too, but I agree none of this really fixes the core reasons why you don't see Greater Daemons (or hell flesh hounds, plague drones, screamers or so many other units) in competitive lists. Maybe some of the other exalted traits will be eye popping, but who knows. Just gotta wait and see.
Exactly, they have 5 more traits not shared. Maybe the Bloodthirster gets a FNP type of ability or maybe GUO will get something like Ghaz has. No matter what he is hit or shot with you can't do more than "X" number of damage.
You must have bad dice rolls. Lots of armies are casting multiple spells per turn per psychic phase. LoC can deny 2 per turn (or is it 3? Can't remember).
That's a good potential to completely neuter an CSM Sorcerer/DP/Eldar Warlock/Farseer, not to mention all the other psykers.
If a SM Libby casts 2 powers in one psychic phase and you deny them both that Libby has now become a glorified LT.
Pretty happy with the Slaanesh stuff we got... one super good relic, two OK ones. The Greater Daemon Table is awesome though. Can’t pick one out as an auto take over others... all seem useful. Strats are OK, they’re all basically what my army needed. Particularly the cavalry one since I use Seekers.
People crying up a storm over the Demons stuff being useless, even though we've seen 5 out of 24 exalted buffs, and only a handful of the relics and strats
vaklor4 wrote: People crying up a storm over the Demons stuff being useless, even though we've seen 5 out of 24 exalted buffs, and only a handful of the relics and strats
That’s online 40k in a nut shell lol. Been that way since 4th edition when I found places like this. Everyone just laments and cries about stuff - even decent new stuff - unless it is automatically the most powerful thing ever where they auto-win without having to think on the board.
vaklor4 wrote: People crying up a storm over the Demons stuff being useless, even though we've seen 5 out of 24 exalted buffs, and only a handful of the relics and strats
That’s online 40k in a nut shell lol. Been that way since 4th edition when I found places like this. Everyone just laments and cries about stuff - even decent new stuff - unless it is automatically the most powerful thing ever where they auto-win without having to think on the board.
Now we've seen some leaks there's some decent stuff in there, but it's mostly nice to haves and some situational stuff. Not convinced the core issues are fixed, but auto casting 9's on horrors and some interesting perks for the big guys like t8 GUO sweeten the deal.
I think there is some really cool stuff in there. One thing that I noticed was that there doesn't appear to be any limitations on the Exalted Strategems, so you can have multiple exalted greater daemons there. A few top picks for me:
Lord of Change with Impossible Robe, Aura of Mutability, and Incorporeal Form is super durable. The Aura is great because you can regain wounds after the unit resolved their attacks. The aura should result in an effective 6 additional wounds. The Architect of Deception may be a better pick however just due to the fact that not getting damaged in the first place is better than rolling a save.
Nexus of fate also looks great. 3 lords with it means that you are likely getting 1CP a turn. A good investment? Probably not, but it is kind of cool.
The Exalted Keepers look interesting. Realm-racer is cool, but I don't think strictly needed as they already have awesome speed. Quicksilver reflexes is OK, but not as good as Blessing of the Dark Prince. Those pesky guardsmen getting you down? Not any more. Anything S3 won't even dint your KoS. Bolters reduce their damage by half against you. Massive upsides there. The other abilities are OK. Fear seeker is kind of cool, but doesn't help you get across the table. Although if you pair it up with a shining aegis to help you get there, could mean you are recovering wounds that you lost earlier. Also, being able to move as if it were the movement phase gives you a lot of positioning advantages.
For the Exalted Blood Thirsters I can't get pass Blood-blessed and G'rmakht the Destroyer as an ultimate combination. You loose at most 8 wounds in a phase, and when you eventually die, you have a chance to come back on a 4+ at the end of the phase! That said, a BloodThirster of Insensate Rage with the Blood-Drinker Talisman and Blood-blessed could result in an absurdly difficult model to remove. TBH, the Khorne traits are soo good that I would consider rolling on the table. Give a Bloodthirster Unrivalled Battle-Lust to give him a 7" charge out of deep strike (with re-roll for Khorne only!)
For Exalted Great Unclean Ones I feel they didn't get as much of a buff as the other factions. That said, T8 GUO is a nice option, although +1 to disgustingly resilient is a good option. Avalanche of Rotten Flesh is OK, but only if you are deep striking the GUO. The Effluvior is OKish. The big up side to it is it's pseudo-mortal wounds mechanic.
Doesn't look like any of it really changes anything significantly. Greater daemons weren't the problem (and their issues aren't fixed by spending CP to give them minor buffs), and almost none of those stratagems are anything besides the "spend 1 CP to make this unit a little better" filler that is by definition not particularly game-changing.
A warning to any fellow Chaos Daemon players who are excited about this release:
- Adds Exalted upgrade to give Greater Daemons a long-needed boost, except it costs 1 CP to pick only 1 upgrade and you can never pick the same upgrade more than once in matched play (and can't give it to named characters).
- Adds 12 new relics, except you can only ever have 1 of them in the army, it's only for an Exalted Greater Daemon, and only if your warlord is of the same Chaos god.
- Adds new stratagems, but almost all of them are terrible.
- Does not add any new army-wide rules, still only loci (which force your whole detachment to be mono-God).
- No new datasheets except those already released elsewhere previously.
In other words, same old lazy third-rate treatment from the GW Design Studio that Chaos Daemon players have been used to for all of 8th Ed.
Haven't seen it myself yet but that sounds depressing. So aggravating as this could be such a great time in the game if they lavished all factions with the effort of the Uber Marine release
You can play age of sigmar with daemon units, and they are actually good there supposedly. I don't think there's a ton of appetite at GW for letting you buy an army that works well in both games.
kodos wrote: it will be more intresting how mono daemons will perform with those rules in 9th
Poorly I assume - as it stands if I want to build a list for more than 2 gods without losing rules, I'll need 3 detachments, each of those will cost me cp just for the pleasure of the detachment specifc rules. You've gone from being punished for running mixed god detachments, to being punished for using more than 1 god period.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Can you use the Exalted Stratagem multiple times on the same creature? Three CP for 3 abilities on the same model would be hilarious.
Currently yes, most likely GW will FAQ it considering they already slapped a million punitive restrictions on Daemons player in this supplement.
Can anyone confirm that you can only take each exalted reward once in your army in matches play? E.G. you can't have 3 exalted GUOs with Revoltingly Resilient? I can't see this, is it in the missing pages?
- Adds Exalted upgrade to give Greater Daemons a long-needed boost, except it costs 1 CP to pick only 1 upgrade and you can never pick the same upgrade more than once in matched play (and can't give it to named characters).
Not true.
You can use the exalted stratagem upgrade multiple times, because its not during a phase, the stratagem itself isnt limited to once per battle, or something similar. And there is no limitation that any ability can only be chosen once. The text is the same for all greater daemons, except for the keywords.
Use this stratagem before the battle. Select one BLOODTHIRSTER model from your army that is not a named character. Until the end of the battle, that model gains the EXALTED keyword, and you can select one of the exalted bloodthirster abilities below for this model for the duration of the battle. Alternatively, you can randomly determine two abilities by rolling two D6 and applying them both to this model for the duration of the battle (if a double is rolled, roll again until two different results are rolled).
ArikTaranis wrote: Can anyone confirm that you can only take each exalted reward once in your army in matches play? E.G. you can't have 3 exalted GUOs with Revoltingly Resilient? I can't see this, is it in the missing pages?
- Adds Exalted upgrade to give Greater Daemons a long-needed boost, except it costs 1 CP to pick only 1 upgrade and you can never pick the same upgrade more than once in matched play (and can't give it to named characters).
Not true.
You can use the exalted stratagem upgrade multiple times, because its not during a phase, the stratagem itself isnt limited to once per battle, or something similar. And there is no limitation that any ability can only be chosen once. The text is the same for all greater daemons, except for the keywords.
Use this stratagem before the battle. Select one BLOODTHIRSTER model from your army that is not a named character. Until the end of the battle, that model gains the EXALTED keyword, and you can select one of the exalted bloodthirster abilities below for this model for the duration of the battle. Alternatively, you can randomly determine two abilities by rolling two D6 and applying them both to this model for the duration of the battle (if a double is rolled, roll again until two different results are rolled).
ArikTaranis wrote: Can anyone confirm that you can only take each exalted reward once in your army in matches play? E.G. you can't have 3 exalted GUOs with Revoltingly Resilient? I can't see this, is it in the missing pages?
Was going to say, even if you could pick the same ability, you have to remember that buffs of the same name do not stack, unless explicitly stated to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: However, this doesnt seem to rule out the idea of using the strat multiple times on the same model and picking different ones... unless there is another mini rule somewhere that hasn't been shown yet
However, this doesnt seem to rule out the idea of using the strat multiple times on the same model and picking different ones... unless there is another mini rule somewhere that hasn't been shown yet
This doesn't seem likely. But if it is somehow legal then exalted greater daemons could get interesting.
6CP to have all the traits? Or more realistically spend 1-2 CP rolling for 2-4 random traits, then an extra 1 CP for a trait you really want.
Kdash wrote: Was going to say, even if you could pick the same ability, you have to remember that buffs of the same name do not stack, unless explicitly stated to do so.
Ok, you cannot pick the same ability more than once. I didnt know that daemonic jealousy rule. But you can still have the same ability on multiple exalted greater daemons, when you roll for them.
However, this doesnt seem to rule out the idea of using the strat multiple times on the same model and picking different ones... unless there is another mini rule somewhere that hasn't been shown yet
Looks like that possible. You can use the exalted stratagem and roll for two abilities. Then you can use it again, on the same greater daemon, and roll for two more, or you can pick one. But what happens when you roll the second time, and you get a result which you already had the first time ?
JakeSiren wrote: I think there is some really cool stuff in there. One thing that I noticed was that there doesn't appear to be any limitations on the Exalted Strategems, so you can have multiple exalted greater daemons there. A few top picks for me:
For the Exalted Blood Thirsters I can't get pass Blood-blessed and G'rmakht the Destroyer as an ultimate combination. You loose at most 8 wounds in a phase, and when you eventually die, you have a chance to come back on a 4+ at the end of the phase! That said, a BloodThirster of Insensate Rage with the Blood-Drinker Talisman and Blood-blessed could result in an absurdly difficult model to remove. TBH, the Khorne traits are soo good that I would consider rolling on the table. Give a Bloodthirster Unrivalled Battle-Lust to give him a 7" charge out of deep strike (with re-roll for Khorne only!)
I'm on the fence about G'rmakht, not too crazy bout giving up a relic slot for a 50/50 chance, and even then only D6 wound recovery. What about Exalted BT geared out with exalted trait for max 8 wound loss per phase, the Blood drinker talisman for life leech and then I dunno I guess that CD warlord train Oblivious to Pain for 6+ FNP?
I like them all. Peeps complaining that stratagems are unit specific and not that good. Flesh hounds are fast (not fiend fast but fast and now for 1 CP get faster being able to charge even when advancing)? Yes please. Karanak and his 9 buddies will like that stratagem.
Fiends lowering morale by -2. Between what Fiends can dish out in melee and now morale even SMMSU squads will most likely be wiped out. 4 dead marines + -2 = -6 to a SM morale of 8 if not within a LD bubble. On a 3+ with reroll there is a good chance that last dude is running like a scared cat.
Extra mortal wounds from Flamers? I run units of 6 and with good rolls could net an extra couple of mortals on a unit like a vehicle/MC or even just a pesky infantry/cav unit.
Not to mention 9th could change things up enough to where the PA isn't so bad. Morale and cover are getting an overhaul it seems. Daemons love cover (at least for LoS purposes and Slaanesh daemons (and a few other daemon units) can really screw up enemy morale.
I'm taking the wait and see approach. I'm going to theory hammer/play test a few games between now and PA release to see how my army is affected currently and speculate on what 9th brings (hopefully more 9th ed leaks pop up online).
Extra mortal wounds from Flamers? I run units of 6 and with good rolls could net an extra couple of mortals on a unit like a vehicle/MC or even just a pesky infantry/cav unit.
I feel like Flamers received a double buff. Giving an extra mobility option to Heralds also benefits them a lot.
Flamers have been my go-to choice against Eldar flyers spam. Tons of autohits mess them up gooooood.
Lol @ fiends wiping out units with the Stratagem. It is true, but it is anti-synergy. You want fiends *not* to kill something, so the fiends and whatever is with them can stay locked in combat.
I recant my previous statement. All the Greater Daemons got some kind of durability buff as to keep them alive during casual games. Still not enough to save them in any competitive environment, sadly. Maybe Tzeentch.
I feel like Flamers received a double buff. Giving an extra mobility option to Heralds also benefits them a lot.
Except tzeentch heralds are really bad. Tzeentch psychic powers mostly suck, except flickering flames. Boon of change is random, gaze of fate is ok. The fluxmaster and changecaster are horrible. Those heralds can only cast one power, they are S3/T3, have no ranged weapon, and only WS4+ with 2 attacks, and they cost 78/99 pts. Tzeentch is the god of magic, it makes a lot of sense that his psykers are among the worst in the game
That's 78/99 points, that buff Flamer attacks with +1 strength AND +1 to wound, If you bring enough Flamers and mostly care about buffing them, that ain't that bad.
If you want to show an Eldar player what's up, spend 5 CP to drop 18 Flamers and a Herald from warp, and watch a fully equipped Waveserpent desintegrate at impact.
That worked already before the current buffs.
Eldarain wrote: Over 400 points and 5 CP with short ranged guns and a giant footprint to kill a Wave Serpent?
400 points payed for a 600 points change in atrition balance (other than his wave serpents, your flamers are still alive, after all, and he has to deal with them) ain't bad in my book.
Also, if his game plan is "Nananana, noone can hit my stuff" snuffing his most expensive model on turn 2 will seriously mess with his head.
Also, short ranged guns - on a mobile platform, with 4+ invuln saves.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Lol @ fiends wiping out units with the Stratagem. It is true, but it is anti-synergy. You want fiends *not* to kill something, so the fiends and whatever is with them can stay locked in combat.
Locked in combat except for units with the FLY keyword, which can't be locked. Whenever my fiends get locked in combat I get counter-charged in opponents next turn and I lose my fiends.
AuntHerbert wrote: That's 78/99 points, that buff Flamer attacks with +1 strength AND +1 to wound, If you bring enough Flamers and mostly care about buffing them, that ain't that bad.
If you want to show an Eldar player what's up, spend 5 CP to drop 18 Flamers and a Herald from warp, and watch a fully equipped Waveserpent desintegrate at impact.
That worked already before the current buffs.
What ? How are you casting flickering flames on 18 flamers ? You can only do that on 9 flamers, one unit. And you need to manifest it first, you can fail at that, or it can be denied.
I didn’t want too write anything yet, as we do not know all the rules yet. But so far, it’s just an updated codex with minimal addons.
But dear people. On the index or whatever it’s called (start of the book where you see what the book includes) we do see stuff for allegiance, lords of the warp, legions demonica and updated datasheets for some things like bloodcrushers (hope they get something good).
An Exalted greater Daemon. We only know that they get 1-2 more abilities but hopefully they also get a few wounds more and something.
As for the flamer unit. They are good, possible the best of Tzeentch. Drop in 6-9 and cast flickering flames to kill or seriously hurt something and then give them a 3++ invul for better survival.
Sadly Tzeentch is suppose to be the psychic God but I fell that it gave that up in 8th Ed and started to shoot instead.
AuntHerbert wrote: That's 78/99 points, that buff Flamer attacks with +1 strength AND +1 to wound, If you bring enough Flamers and mostly care about buffing them, that ain't that bad.
If you want to show an Eldar player what's up, spend 5 CP to drop 18 Flamers and a Herald from warp, and watch a fully equipped Waveserpent desintegrate at impact.
That worked already before the current buffs.
What ? How are you casting flickering flames on 18 flamers ? You can only do that on 9 flamers, one unit. And you need to manifest it first, you can fail at that, or it can be denied.
Don't cry on my shirt, run it through a mathhammer app of your choice. Also, don't strawman my arguments.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Lol @ fiends wiping out units with the Stratagem. It is true, but it is anti-synergy. You want fiends *not* to kill something, so the fiends and whatever is with them can stay locked in combat.
Locked in combat except for units with the FLY keyword, which can't be locked. Whenever my fiends get locked in combat I get counter-charged in opponents next turn and I lose my fiends.
My tactic is to run my KoS near my fiends. The fiends lock the enemy with the Keeper, making the Keeper immune to shooting. If the enemy charges the fiends, heroically intervene with the Keeper and pop the -1 attack in an aura Stratagem.
Unless you used the LD reduction strat last turn on the fiends and the enemy was able to disengage because of the extra casualties. Then the keeper gets shot off the board.
Tazberry wrote: I didn’t want too write anything yet, as we do not know all the rules yet. But so far, it’s just an updated codex with minimal addons.
But dear people. On the index or whatever it’s called (start of the book where you see what the book includes) we do see stuff for allegiance, lords of the warp, legions demonica and updated datasheets for some things like bloodcrushers (hope they get something good).
An Exalted greater Daemon. We only know that they get 1-2 more abilities but hopefully they also get a few wounds more and something.
As for the flamer unit. They are good, possible the best of Tzeentch. Drop in 6-9 and cast flickering flames to kill or seriously hurt something and then give them a 3++ invul for better survival.
Sadly Tzeentch is suppose to be the psychic God but I fell that it gave that up in 8th Ed and started to shoot instead.
Note that one rule is missing from this: Daemonic Jealousy. You cannot CHOOSE the same exalted trait twice in your army. You CAN have the same exalted trait twice if you receive it randomly
Automatically Appended Next Post: A few highlights:
-IMO, all the exalted tables except for Slaanesh are good enough to roll randomly on twice instead of picking 1 buff. MAYBE you want to pick on the GUO table, just to avoid the 4 and 6 result, which aren't bad but don't seem particularly great for what a GUO wants to do. Slaanesh definitely has 3 not so great results and 3 much better results. If it were me I would choose the 1 result if I had a turn 1 tempo slaanesh army and the 2 or 3 results (maybe both on 2 separate keeprs) if I had a turn 2 tempo slaanesh army.
-The artifacts seem to be the weakest point overall. The Tome for Tzeentch is good but not better than the Impossible Robe, the Rune of Brass is solid for Khorne in the situation of you being against a smitespam army but otherwise it's basically down to the Axe, which is a 50-50 chance of your Bloodthirster getting to use the Knights get back up strat for free...with extra restrictions.
-stratagems seem meh, with Tzeentch ones being the best and Khorne ones being the worst, probably down to the baseline functionalities of the units they go on...khorne units start out pretty bad. Tzeentch can now guarantee a smite for 1 unit of horrors even after they've smited with their more important psykers, they can give a unit of flamers a few mortal wounds, and they can give screamers a much needed +1 to wound vs heavy targets.
It's mostly about those exalted tables though. I would consider Greater Daemons to just, from now on have a 1cp cost per guy. Zero reason to take a Greater Daemon and not grab one of these traits or roll for 2 depending on what you've got.
I feel like Flamers received a double buff. Giving an extra mobility option to Heralds also benefits them a lot.
Except tzeentch heralds are really bad. Tzeentch psychic powers mostly suck, except flickering flames. Boon of change is random, gaze of fate is ok. The fluxmaster and changecaster are horrible. Those heralds can only cast one power, they are S3/T3, have no ranged weapon, and only WS4+ with 2 attacks, and they cost 78/99 pts. Tzeentch is the god of magic, it makes a lot of sense that his psykers are among the worst in the game
I don't mind the Fateskimmer personally. +1S aura is better on Tzeentch than basically anyone else because you've got some fairly good strength break points in the army (Screamers S6->7, Flamers S4->5, Horrors S3->4 are often a +1 to wound) and only one cast doesn't hurt that bad. He's a good choice to be your Warlord since he's less likely to be focused down and the Daemonspark trait is good where he probably wants to be on the board (Aura buffing your lads) and you've got a pretty obvious power that's just made for him in Flickering Flames. You take Boon as the second one and you can allow him to double-cast with a stratagem on the turn when you want him to put down both buffs on a big horror blob or unit of flamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: Those cant be the full rules. The infinite forms of corruption is missing, thats 2 pages.
I don't know, that's what I've seen. Maybe that's like a name generator or something, or else there's more rules I haven't seen.
I don't mind the Fateskimmer personally. +1S aura is better on Tzeentch than basically anyone else because you've got some fairly good strength break points in the army (Screamers S6->7, Flamers S4->5, Horrors S3->4 are often a +1 to wound) and only one cast doesn't hurt that bad. He's a good choice to be your Warlord since he's less likely to be focused down and the Daemonspark trait is good where he probably wants to be on the board (Aura buffing your lads) and you've got a pretty obvious power that's just made for him in Flickering Flames. You take Boon as the second one and you can allow him to double-cast with a stratagem on the turn when you want him to put down both buffs on a big horror blob or unit of flamers.
Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.
It’s not the full rules as it is 26 pages of rules for daemons plus a name generator.
As I said above. It’s missing stuff like updated datasheets for some things and “lords of the warp” whatever that is. Also “allegiance” Which I hope is new rules and BETTER rules for mono God.
Eldarain wrote: Over 400 points and 5 CP with short ranged guns and a giant footprint to kill a Wave Serpent?
400 points payed for a 600 points change in atrition balance (other than his wave serpents, your flamers are still alive, after all, and he has to deal with them) ain't bad in my book.
Also, if his game plan is "Nananana, noone can hit my stuff" snuffing his most expensive model on turn 2 will seriously mess with his head.
Also, short ranged guns - on a mobile platform, with 4+ invuln saves.
Wave serpents are practically the last thing you want to shoot when you're fighting eldar. They're bullet sponges with extremely high durability for their points cost.
As an eldar player, I would be thrilled watch you sacrifice 5CP and 2 maxed out flamer units to kill a single screening unit.
Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.
And now please list all of them, that also come with a relevant aura buff....
OTOH, S3/T3, no ranged weapon, 2 attacks in melee, WS4+ for 78 pts. A chaos sorcerer has S4/T4, boltgun, WS3+, 3 attacks, better melee weapon, can cast two powers, 3+ sv for 88 pts.
I don't "sacrifice" the Flamers, I place them on the board, where the Eldar player has to deal with them, and remove his biggest craft while I do so.
The Eldar can't kite them with Shuriken weapon, as Flamers match the 24" threat range, and the longer range guns aren't really effective against Flamers.
And no, if you want to tell me, that an Eldar Player can ignore something, that can pop his tanks in a single turn, I will laugh in your face.
The expense of 5 CP IS questionable, with good positioning and use of terrain it's probably possible to home in those Flamers much cheaper, even when starting on the board.
But that really doesn't undermine my point, that Flamers are good and fielding a Herald to buff them makes sense..
Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.
And now please list all of them, that also come with a relevant aura buff....
OTOH, S3/T3, no ranged weapon, 2 attacks in melee, WS4+ for 78 pts. A chaos sorcerer has S4/T4, boltgun, WS3+, 3 attacks, better melee weapon, can cast two powers, 3+ sv for 88 pts.
Actually S4, as they are always in range of their own aura. But you don't buy them for melee, and you usually don't buy a sorcerer for his bolt gun. And as I said, just imagine the buff being worded as
"Locus of Tzeentch has a warp power of auto resolve, can't be denied, and can't cause perils. Select all TZEENTCH DAEMON units with at least one model within 6". Add 1 to the Strength characteristic of each model in that unit" That's a good power
Oh, forgot to mention, also that Chaos Sorcerer has no invuln save. Which is more relevant than his melee or shooting stats..
Ohh, and the Herald is also a Tzeentch Daemon character, so, if fielded in a mono Tzeentch detachment he randomly removes enemy melee hits within 12" which is also more relevant...
Yeah, sure horribly horribad package in comparison.
Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.
And now please list all of them, that also come with a relevant aura buff....
OTOH, S3/T3, no ranged weapon, 2 attacks in melee, WS4+ for 78 pts. A chaos sorcerer has S4/T4, boltgun, WS3+, 3 attacks, better melee weapon, can cast two powers, 3+ sv for 88 pts.
Actually S4, as they are always in range of their own aura. But you don't buy them for melee, and you usually don't buy a sorcerer for his bolt gun. And as I said, just imagine the buff being worded as
"Locus of Tzeentch has a warp power of auto resolve, can't be denied, and can't cause perils. Select all TZEENTCH DAEMON units with at least one model within 6". Add 1 to the Strength characteristic of each model in that unit" That's a good power
Oh, forgot to mention, also that Chaos Sorcerer has no invuln save. Which is more relevant than his melee or shooting stats..
Ohh, and the Herald is also a Tzeentch Daemon character, so, if fielded in a mono Tzeentch detachment he randomly removes enemy melee hits within 12" which is also more relevant...
Yeah, sure horribly horribad package in comparison.
The buff locus of tzeentch isn't worded like that, what are you talking about ?
The roll 2D6 in the fight phase and discard higher dice is almost useless. If you roll a 1 or 2 on one or both dice it does almost nothing. The majority of units hits on 3 or 4.
If the buff actually were a psychic power, that is what it - would - have to sound like. So I rewrote it, so it would be easier even for a saltmining troll like you to compare them. But off course, you just reverted to your default position of complaining and crying. I should have known better.
And the Tzeentch detachment locus is decent against a specific type of attackers: melee specialists, with a good WS and the ability to turn single hits into multiple wounds. But please, don't bother to discuss it, I run out of soft tissues for you.
indeed mono Tz was a dominating force... in 3 years of 8th edition tournaments, only Tz units i met was pink horrors and foot heralds, yeah a force to be reckoned. But the problem is not Tz itself, is the whole CD codex, outside of friendly games it sucks, i played CD for the whole 8th edition, at any level of play, after space marines release, they stand no chance, the strongest list that was played (60+ Pb's and TS soup) is unplayable against marines with all their re rolls and tons of sniping, CD need a deep drastical improvement or you will keep play them just in friendly or low competitive games.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Lol @ fiends wiping out units with the Stratagem. It is true, but it is anti-synergy. You want fiends *not* to kill something, so the fiends and whatever is with them can stay locked in combat.
Locked in combat except for units with the FLY keyword, which can't be locked. Whenever my fiends get locked in combat I get counter-charged in opponents next turn and I lose my fiends.
My tactic is to run my KoS near my fiends. The fiends lock the enemy with the Keeper, making the Keeper immune to shooting. If the enemy charges the fiends, heroically intervene with the Keeper and pop the -1 attack in an aura Stratagem.
Unless you used the LD reduction strat last turn on the fiends and the enemy was able to disengage because of the extra casualties. Then the keeper gets shot off the board.
Yeah, Fiends are a combo unit that want to enable a beatstick to be a spiky tarpit. I dunno how competitive it’ll be, but I’m cautiously optimistic it’ll be usefully flexible, being able to choose between the Fiends enabling the KoS to pick between taking hostages and eating their souls to heal
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, Jewel of Excess makes the Epitome a very reliable Hysterical Frenzy caster and DTW machine
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you try to sextuple exalt a GD, a rules lawyer will argue that you only reroll if the roll is a double, not if you already have the result you rolled. Don’t make any plans for this all-your-eggs-in-one-basket approach until we’ve seen 9ed *and* the EWFAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you really wanna stack exaltations, probably best to have one random and one chosen? Even then, you may be disappointed come the FAQ
It seems to me like you've got one subfaction that really wants to pick the Exalted buffs, and that's slaanesh, and one that really wants to roll, and that's Tzeentch. I can think of almost no situation on that Tzeentch table where I'd rather have 1 power than another 2. Maybe if I really want to dump a bucket of mortal wounds with infernal gateway I want to pick Lord of Flux, but I think mostly I'd stick with rolling 2.
For slaanesh, it's going to depend on how the rest of your army is structured. If you've got a turn 2 tempo list and your gameplan revolves around having enough meat on your bones to survive a full turn's firepower before you get your daemonetes and your syll'eskes and your keepers into combat with all the buffs and stratagems to allow even the beaten-up version of your force to tie up the enemy and take them out, then you want to pick the -1 to wound and the 4++ traits for your keepers. If instead you want to take chariots and seekers and fiends and get your gak into as much of the enemy as possible turn 1 to stop them from getting that initial salvo, then you really want to have realm-racer to get that fairly reliable turn 1 charge.
For Nurgle and Khorne, I'd say it's situational. +2 to Charge really makes deep striking a bloodthirster a serious option for consideration, but there's also some solid buffs in there that if you were to just plop a thirster down on the board, I think it'd make sense to just roll on the table and get 2 buffs. The big problem that thirsters (and by extension, the rest of khorne) has is being utterly, totally useless until they get into combat, and it's really easy to degrade a bloodthirster enough with shooting just to slow it down and ensure it never arrives. Make the thirster nasty enough, and degradation doesn't matter nearly as much. Make it tough enough, and you can't as easily degrade it for its point cost. If both routes work, just having more for the same CP cost makes sense.
Use one exalted BT with the max 8 wounds loss per phase ability, 6+ FNP warlord trait, and the new relic axe which allows him to get back up on 4+. The rest of the army is DPs, and anything else hides in the warp. Your opponent can only shoot the BT T1. He wont be able to kill him T1. If your opponent manages to kill the BT on T2, you have a 75% chance (4+ with reroll) that he gets up again. On T2 your entire army hits your opponent in the face.
another major issue of pure melee demons lists are screens, they cant just remove them and the valuable units behind are safe. You can have a supesyan BT but if you forced to charge 5 scouts or 10 Tau drones... is useless.
blackmage wrote: another major issue of pure melee demons lists are screens, they cant just remove them and the valuable units behind are safe. You can have a supesyan BT but if you forced to charge 5 scouts or 10 Tau drones... is useless.
How is it useless when the BT can regenerate wounds from them ?
These days people build armies to kill 1-2 knights a turn. Dealing 8 wounds to a T7 3+/4++/6+++ model is trivial for a competitive list. And if your opponent has anything capable of pulling off a T1 charge, that bloodthirster is toast. Genestealers, disco lords, shining spears, knights... heck, psyker-heavy lists can do 8w in the psychic phase. I don't even want to get into what space marines can do to a bloodthirster...
Even if the bloodthirster survives past T1 the best outcome is for him to limp into combat at bottom bracket with a 50 point chaff unit.
slave.entity wrote: These days people build armies to kill 1-2 knights a turn. Dealing 8 wounds to a T7 3+/4++/6+++ model is trivial for a competitive list. And if your opponent has anything capable of pulling off a T1 charge, that bloodthirster is toast. Genestealers, disco lords, shining spears, knights... heck, psyker-heavy lists can do 8w in the psychic phase. I don't even want to get into what space marines can do to a bloodthirster...
Even if the bloodthirster survives past T1 the best outcome is for him to limp into combat at bottom bracket with a 50 point chaff unit.
It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away
It works only if your opponent fails to inflict 8W on the BT in the psychic phase. You have to deploy it at the front of your army, and If they smite it to half health, it falls and they freely targets whatever is the most dangerous thing in your army
I can’t see it working. The Knight-busting metagame doesn’t use Smite, because it’s so easily countered. Enable that metagame to throw it in, and it makes your wall easily killable in a single turn. If anything it’s more vulnerable to armies other than Tau, Necrons, Sisters and Khorne.
Ghazghkull could pull it off, but not us
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maaaybe soup could make it work with Ahriman and a souped-up Epitome on DTW duty
blackmage wrote: another major issue of pure melee demons lists are screens, they cant just remove them and the valuable units behind are safe. You can have a supesyan BT but if you forced to charge 5 scouts or 10 Tau drones... is useless.
How is it useless when the BT can regenerate wounds from them ?
if your BT charge scouts and then be wipped out from table..seem like is useless...of course i talk abour a capable opponent. You still believe that a decent opponent let you charge his IK, veichles, characters? If that is the case change opponent and find a capable one
Automatically Appended Next Post:
slave.entity wrote: These days people build armies to kill 1-2 knights a turn. Dealing 8 wounds to a T7 3+/4++/6+++ model is trivial for a competitive list. And if your opponent has anything capable of pulling off a T1 charge, that bloodthirster is toast. Genestealers, disco lords, shining spears, knights... heck, psyker-heavy lists can do 8w in the psychic phase. I don't even want to get into what space marines can do to a bloodthirster...
Even if the bloodthirster survives past T1 the best outcome is for him to limp into combat at bottom bracket with a 50 point chaff unit.
someone who know how competitive play is, high 5
before cv19 stop i played a list with 90 cultists discolord 6 obly and ts supreme command (ahrimann PD and termy sorc) BT die as soon as put his nouse out and will kill if lucky 10 cultists, GD aren't made for high competition sadly and i tell it because i own 3 KOS 1 LOC and 1 GUO i would like play them. Maybe Kos cause they are fast enough
someone who know how competitive play is, high 5
before cv19 stop i played a list with 90 cultists discolord 6 obly and ts supreme command (ahrimann PD and termy sorc) BT die as soon as put his nouse out and will kill if lucky 10 cultists, GD aren't made for high competition sadly and i tell it because i own 3 KOS 1 LOC and 1 GUO i would like play them. Maybe Kos cause they are fast enough
I learned a lot from reading your posts in this thread when I was getting started with daemons at the beginning of 8th edition. Thanks for posting your experiences
Do you think you will be trying some 3x Exalted KOS lists with the new rules?
As a long time competitive daemons player... I'm very disappointed.
The main issue comes from trying to buff greater daemons who's basic form is just ineffective in the current game of 40k. Maybe this will change for 9th edition, but I can only analyse from an 8th edition perspective.
Greater Daemons suffer from:
- Being too easy to kill. When most enemy armies are geared to kill at least one (T8 W24 3+/5++) Knight per turn, a Greater Daemon has T7 W16 5++.
- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain
- Crippling damage profiles. At top bracket they are reasonably mean, but by bottom or even middle tier they can be safely ignored by most armies. A Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage on bottom tier barely kills a single marine.
- No force projection. Most of the Greater Daemons can't act at range to any appreciable extent, which means they can only affect regions of the board that they can reach.
- No force multiplication. The Greater Daemons don't buff their army very well.
- Easily manipulated. Being a large-based single model with a low number of high damage attacks sucks really bad. It is very easy for enemies to manipulate your attacks by screens or tactical model placement/removal.
So anything in the book needs to address many of these points to make greater daemons palatable.
And does it?
Bloodthirster: I think the best ability is actually the +2" charge. Deepstrike a Bloodthirster, a 7" charge with rerolls is a 5/6 chance. The ability to HI 6" makes it hard for most enemies to run away.
Lord of Change: Most of these are decent - to the point that I wouldn't mind rolling on this table - but the -1 to hit is a standout when combined with Impossible Robe & Incorporeal Form. Spell thief is obviously brilliant in the right match.
Nurgle: +1T and +1FNP are big increases to survivability. Still not sure I'd take one.
Slaanesh: Two good increases to survivability with a 4++ and -1 to wound, but my favourite is actually the movement one. A Keeper of Secrets with the Celerity of Slaanesh warlord trait would have a threat range of 21+3D6".
Stratagems.
Khorne: The Infantry strat is way overcosted, and the Bloodcrusher strat sounds good but given Bloodcrusher base size I think it will be extremely rare to actually work like you would want. Flesh Hounds and Skull Cannons are bad and bad strats don't make them better. :(.
Tzeentch: Actual good strats here as a combo with Flamers and Fluxmasters: deepstrike the flamers, teleport the fluxmaster, flamer something with additional MW's will take out any target short of a titanic.
Nurgle: Rust and Decay is bad and has anti-synergy with nurgles other abilities. The Nurgling infestation ability is fun.
Slaanesh: The strats for Daemonettes and Seekers are really good. The strat for fiends is terrible and you should feel bad for using it.
Relics:
Ok, 2 nitpicks here.
1. There is obviously room for a 4th relic on each page. Is GW really that lazy?
2. These are maybe the most restricted relics in the game. you can only take it on an Exalted Greater Daemon and Only if a god of that type is your warlord?
Khorne. Eh. A bloodthirster dying and being reborn 24" from your opponent still isn't a threat.
Tzeentch: All ok, but not sure that you'd take any over the Impossible Robe.
Nurgle: The regain wounds one is very solid, especially with the 4+FNP trait. It also helps that Nurgle's other relics are terrible.
Slaanesh: I like the Whip of Agony a lot, its possibly enough to shoot your way out of combat with a screening unit.
Overall: There's a handful of decent options in here. Strictly better than nothing, but unlike some other other Codex's Psychic Awakening I don't see anything in here that I immediately want to build an army around. WHich in my humble experience means none of it is strictly competitive.
Trasvi wrote: As a long time competitive daemons player... I'm very disappointed.
The main issue comes from trying to buff greater daemons who's basic form is just ineffective in the current game of 40k. Maybe this will change for 9th edition, but I can only analyse from an 8th edition perspective.
Greater Daemons suffer from:
- Being too easy to kill. When most enemy armies are geared to kill at least one (T8 W24 3+/5++) Knight per turn, a Greater Daemon has T7 W16 5++.
- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain
- Crippling damage profiles. At top bracket they are reasonably mean, but by bottom or even middle tier they can be safely ignored by most armies. A Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage on bottom tier barely kills a single marine.
- No force projection. Most of the Greater Daemons can't act at range to any appreciable extent, which means they can only affect regions of the board that they can reach.
- No force multiplication. The Greater Daemons don't buff their army very well.
- Easily manipulated. Being a large-based single model with a low number of high damage attacks sucks really bad. It is very easy for enemies to manipulate your attacks by screens or tactical model placement/removal.
So anything in the book needs to address many of these points to make greater daemons palatable.
And does it?
Bloodthirster: I think the best ability is actually the +2" charge. Deepstrike a Bloodthirster, a 7" charge with rerolls is a 5/6 chance. The ability to HI 6" makes it hard for most enemies to run away.
Lord of Change: Most of these are decent - to the point that I wouldn't mind rolling on this table - but the -1 to hit is a standout when combined with Impossible Robe & Incorporeal Form. Spell thief is obviously brilliant in the right match.
Nurgle: +1T and +1FNP are big increases to survivability. Still not sure I'd take one.
Slaanesh: Two good increases to survivability with a 4++ and -1 to wound, but my favourite is actually the movement one. A Keeper of Secrets with the Celerity of Slaanesh warlord trait would have a threat range of 21+3D6".
Stratagems.
Khorne: The Infantry strat is way overcosted, and the Bloodcrusher strat sounds good but given Bloodcrusher base size I think it will be extremely rare to actually work like you would want. Flesh Hounds and Skull Cannons are bad and bad strats don't make them better. :(.
Tzeentch: Actual good strats here as a combo with Flamers and Fluxmasters: deepstrike the flamers, teleport the fluxmaster, flamer something with additional MW's will take out any target short of a titanic.
Nurgle: Rust and Decay is bad and has anti-synergy with nurgles other abilities. The Nurgling infestation ability is fun.
Slaanesh: The strats for Daemonettes and Seekers are really good. The strat for fiends is terrible and you should feel bad for using it.
Relics:
Ok, 2 nitpicks here.
1. There is obviously room for a 4th relic on each page. Is GW really that lazy?
2. These are maybe the most restricted relics in the game. you can only take it on an Exalted Greater Daemon and Only if a god of that type is your warlord?
Khorne. Eh. A bloodthirster dying and being reborn 24" from your opponent still isn't a threat.
Tzeentch: All ok, but not sure that you'd take any over the Impossible Robe.
Nurgle: The regain wounds one is very solid, especially with the 4+FNP trait. It also helps that Nurgle's other relics are terrible.
Slaanesh: I like the Whip of Agony a lot, its possibly enough to shoot your way out of combat with a screening unit.
Overall: There's a handful of decent options in here. Strictly better than nothing, but unlike some other other Codex's Psychic Awakening I don't see anything in here that I immediately want to build an army around. WHich in my humble experience means none of it is strictly competitive.
more or less agree on anything, this is main reason why the whole CD codex have to be reworked this PA will bring something but not enogh to bring back demons to be competitive, we can at least hope that new terrain rules in 9th gve our MC a chance.
if they really did what they are talking about terrains, can happen we see some more MC around. Seems like some terrains with specific keyword will completely block LOS, is a huge buff to models like, magnus, mortarion, GD, tyranids MC.
It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away
What was the FAQ?
Sorry, correction - the new 9ed rule that you can’t stack modifiers. AL are wrecking with a list where an unkillable Lord Discordant T-poses for an untargetable Possessed horde. If you can avoid taking four smites, the buff BT list would do the same. But that’s a big if - the meta could quickly adapt to a proof of concept
It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away
What was the FAQ?
Sorry, correction - the new 9ed rule that you can’t stack modifiers. AL are wrecking with a list where an unkillable Lord Discordant T-poses for an untargetable Possessed horde. If you can avoid taking four smites, the buff BT list would do the same. But that’s a big if - the meta could quickly adapt to a proof of concept
you really play 40K? compare an exalted BT with a an AL discolord is one of most no sense things i ever read in this forum, meta dont need to adapt to possessed bomb, its alreday ready, and i dont ever consider what GK does to that list.
It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away
What was the FAQ?
Sorry, correction - the new 9ed rule that you can’t stack modifiers. AL are wrecking with a list where an unkillable Lord Discordant T-poses for an untargetable Possessed horde. If you can avoid taking four smites, the buff BT list would do the same. But that’s a big if - the meta could quickly adapt to a proof of concept
you really play 40K? compare an exalted BT with a an AL discolord is one of most no sense things i ever read in this forum
They both serve the job of "Stand in front of my blob of Possessed to make them untargetable and don't die."
That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.
Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.
A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for
- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain
HOW big they are? Here getting 1 knight into hidden isn't impossible at all. Armiger level fairly easy. Are they bigger than knights? Havent' seen new GD models live.
That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.
Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.
A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for
sadly can grant you that are more than 1 army that deliver 16+ wounds to a BT in a turn, shot+psychic and if not enough you are finish in melee, LOD had a -4 to hit outside 12" bubble -3 inside the bubble and -2 in melee, basically same inv.save and better armor save, and just 160pts, totally a different level.
- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain
HOW big they are? Here getting 1 knight into hidden isn't impossible at all. Armiger level fairly easy. Are they bigger than knights? Havent' seen new GD models live.
Maybe 'impossible' is hyperbole - somewhere out there someone has terrain which is just 2'x2' walls I'm sure - but in practice you need terrain that has the express purpose of hiding them.
I have to say I envy your terrain setup if hiding a knight is easy for you. Out local meta has been very very slow on the knight-hiding size of terrain. (Hell its hard getting infantry hiding sometimes). Sometimes (not often) there will be one suitable piece in each deployment zone but nothing in the mid table that can really block LOS to a knight.
Size-wise both the Bloodthister and Lord of Change wings are a bit taller than an Imperial Knight (and less compact in pose). Propbably on par or a little taller than a knight with turret..
Great Unclean One and Keeper of Secrets are a little shorter than Knights.
Regardless, they are at least the same size category as a knight, which is a major factor in limiting their use.
That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.
Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.
A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for
sadly can grant you that are more than 1 army that deliver 16+ wounds to a BT in a turn, shot+psychic and if not enough you are finish in melee, LOD had a -4 to hit outside 12" bubble -3 inside the bubble and -2 in melee, basically same inv.save and better armor save, and just 160pts, totally a different level.
Its an interesting thought - just positioning him as a boolet sponge in front of a character blob, but I agree there are too many armies that can do wounds in more than one phase...
It's the wings. Bloodthirster/Lord of Change wings aren't just really tall, they're REALLY wide. Flyrants have the same problem.
Knights are big too but all of their little add-on bits generally conform to the area inside the oval footprint of their base, so if you angle it right you can often hide them behind a large building. The widest part of a knight is usually at the bottom edge of its shoulder armor.
With Bloodthirsters, Lords of Change, Magnus, Mortarion, and flyrants, their widest point is near the very top of their wingtips. Often higher up than a knight is tall.
Buildings tend to get thinner the higher up you go, so if your model's widest point is also its tallest you're going to have a really hard time covering up every last bit. There's always an extra wingtip poking out from behind that just won't fit.
if rumors are correct maybe wings will not count anymore
@Trasvi if you want a bullet sponge use a LOC with impossible robes, -1 to hit and -1 damage, it doesnt kill much but add bit of psychich power and its durable.
9e battalion rules revealed. Soup is getting nerfed hard. Does not look great for daemons due to our heavy reliance on soup but maybe the points overhaul will help.
I actually like the new rules a bit. Take Khorne for example, DS in, kill one unit or two then die because Of fall back. Now we got a stratagem too kill the unit(s) who fall back at least.
And I do like that it cost cp for having more detachments but yes, it will benefit knights and elite armies the most but how about fighting a Knight list with no guards? I do want to see more fluffy list (even tho I don’t know anything about the fluff) instead of thinking about what too soup just for more cp.
Taking daemons and some csm with points left over for summoning of the other gods (your csm. Character).
slave.entity wrote: 9e battalion rules revealed. Soup is getting nerfed hard. Does not look great for daemons due to our heavy reliance on soup but maybe the points overhaul will help.
i think is a good thing after all, maybe we can hope will not see some abominations like some armies in 8th edition, start with 1 free battalion is nice, then up to you add more and pay extra cp. It take back bit to 5th edition. Demons might play mono faction, most depend by the rest of rules and how codex will be in 9th
That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.
Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.
A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for
Yeah... I would think that your oppoenent would have to tailor the list in order to accomplish that.
Frankly, I'm excited that the BT can get 2+" charge... just DS him in turn 2. In doing so, not sure that the 8W cap would be worth it.
That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.
Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.
A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for
Yeah... I would think that your oppoenent would have to tailor the list in order to accomplish that.
Frankly, I'm excited that the BT can get 2+" charge... just DS him in turn 2. In doing so, not sure that the 8W cap would be worth it.
slave.entity wrote: An exalted BT has an 82% chance of making a 7" charge out of DS assuming CP reroll or locus of rage. That is pretty reasonable.
still to see what ppls will play in 9th, seems like GW want make model cost more (cultist 6pts intercessors 20pt) so we can hope players will not field 200 cultists, or a charge from DS is useless because you charge a screen and nothing more, i realy wish we play less models, that open much more opportunities.
Does anybody think that paying for extra detachments is kind of a disadvantage for Chaos Daemons? Khorne and Slaneesh especially want to be mono detachment for rerolling charges and charging after advancing respectively. Basically we’re gonna have to pay a tax for using our loci while other armies wont.
It's a big nerf to any list that relied on 3 detachments, or multiple sub-factions, or multiple factions within a super-faction. Daemons are hit some of the hardest because they basically rely on all 3.
If you can build an army with 1 detachment, you are going to have MORE CP than in 8th. much more.
Brigade/double battalion are going to have about as much CP as they currently do, but a bit more spread out.
Battalion+speciailst are currently an unknown, probably same spot like brigade and double.
Superheavy armies (knights etc) are a total unknown on CP stance.
Triple detachments are going to see a massive CP decrease.
I like the new system as a whole and think it will lead to much more interesting armies rather than the spam of HQ + Troops that we currently have backing up a single powerful unit or two to pour CP into. Fast attack and heavy support may be used again!
That said I would assume that there will be various FAQs that are needed to address obvious issues and clashes with how certain things work.
Daemons and Dark Eldar are both designed to be played as a mix of detachments, I suspect an FAQ saying something along the lines of the first core detachment of each God/sect refunds its CP.
There are other issues, for example Gullyman grants CP if he's the warlord, but to take him you will need to buy a separate detachment which will cost CP and if he's your warlord your core detachment will also cost CP. I use this as an example showing there is alot of little things that they will have had to look at and I hope Daemons will have been included in that. Massive FAQs incoming!
So I got new PA in my hand, biggest disappointment for me is the fact that we have no new spells. Even if I make my LoC exalted one and give him Mastery of Magic, I'll be able to cast 3 + 1 spells total, which then I will not be able to cast on other characters cuz I can attempt the manifest only once except the smite.
Another one is that there is literally nothing for summoning, would be that hard to have gem for 1cp to summon AFTER THE MOVEMENT? Eh.
The gem for Horrors is great since allows you to have first smite 100% but it still adds +1 to next smite manifest since it's still considered a Psychic test
Like most have already stated, no game changers here, just new toys to play with.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a big nerf to any list that relied on 3 detachments, or multiple sub-factions, or multiple factions within a super-faction. Daemons are hit some of the hardest because they basically rely on all 3.
that was made for command points, is not mandatory you need 3 detachements, guess now you can play with 1 or 2 only
Even if I make my LoC exalted one and give him Mastery of Magic, I'll be able to cast 3 + 1 spells total, which then I will not be able to cast on other characters cuz I can attempt the manifest only once except the smite.
A LoC can cast 2 powers, with mastery of magic he can cast 3. There are three powers which need an 8, do you really want to try to manifest those on a psyker which doesnt get +2 to the roll ?
The gem for Horrors is great since allows you to have first smite 100% but it still adds +1 to next smite manifest since it's still considered a Psychic test
Yes, it sucks. It shouldnt be at the start of the psychic phase.
Can you tell me what pg. 90/91 is about ? The infinite forms of corruption ?
It's just pictures of new Slaanesh daemons. Basically 3/4 of daemon content is a re-print from Wrath and Rapture and CA.
IMHOGW has given very little touch to Daemons, even name generators show it. Mechanicus' name options are something like Sy-gex-089, while Daemons' options are like... Pain, Pox, Death, Fate (literally)
A LoC can cast 2 powers, with mastery of magic he can cast 3. There are three powers which need an 8, do you really want to try to manifest those on a psyker which doesnt get +2 to the roll ?
That's the thing, I'd like to have more spells to choose from so the other casters can cast something instead of smite having that it's warp entities we're talking about.
Can you tell me what pg. 90/91 is about ? The infinite forms of corruption ?
It's just pictures of new Slaanesh daemons. Basically 3/4 of daemon content is a re-print from Wrath and Rapture and CA.
IMGO GW have given very little touch to Daemons, even name generators show it. Mechanicu's name options are something like Sy-gex-089, while Daemon's options are like... Pain, Pox, Death, Fate (literally)
A LoC can cast 2 powers, with mastery of magic he can cast 3. There are three powers which need an 8, do you really want to try to manifest those on a psyker which doesnt get +2 to the roll ?
That's the thing, I'd like to have more spells to choose from so the other casters can cast something instead of smite having that it's warp entities we're talking about.
i have the feeling we will see much changes in next chaos demons codex, perhaps it will be released earlier in 9th
mbkgacek wrote: So I got new PA in my hand, biggest disappointment for me is the fact that we have no new spells. Even if I make my LoC exalted one and give him Mastery of Magic, I'll be able to cast 3 + 1 spells total, which then I will not be able to cast on other characters cuz I can attempt the manifest only once except the smite.
Another one is that there is literally nothing for summoning, would be that hard to have gem for 1cp to summon AFTER THE MOVEMENT? Eh.
The gem for Horrors is great since allows you to have first smite 100% but it still adds +1 to next smite manifest since it's still considered a Psychic test
Like most have already stated, no game changers here, just new toys to play with.
You can always use the auto cast strat last after you’ve done all your other smiting. Also the changeling and tzeentch foot heralds have the right keywords to use it in on too. So if you bring either of those it’s basically a free infernal gateway. But yes, overall they have continued the trend in 8th of extremely lazy and boring rules writing for the majority of the daemon codex. Seriously how the hell does the chaos god of magic (or daemons in general really) get no new psychic powers in the PSYCHIC AWAKENING book series. Just gotta hope they get it together when our codex comes out and that it comes relatively soon in the next cycle
The auto 9 on a cast has to be at the start of the phase so it's limited in terms of baiting out dispels or any smite manipulation.
Although reading it again it says to use the strat at the start but it doesn't specify the Horror has to cast immediately. Odd wordings in this book.
You can always use the auto cast strat last after you’ve done all your other smiting.
Its not an auto cast strat, because it can still be denied on a 10, or when the opponent uses a strat which denies on a roll of 4+. However, i agree with Eldarain that it can be used on a horror infantry unit to cast smite later, after other smites have been done.
I still think bloodblessed is good (make a blood thirster can only take max 8 damage per phase). This enables your blood thirsty to go up the board with your whole army. Shield it with fodder demons from smites. So, basically, the opponent can only shoot at it.
If the opponent knows he can only inflict max 8 damage, maybe he wouldn't even bother targeting that bloodthirster.
Then turn 2, you fly over his fodder and charge/attack the juicy target you really want to kill. Bloodthirsters have wings. So, it should be super easy to fly over and charge something good rather than charge into a bunch of scouts.
Maybe you will die after that, who knows, but at least you got to do something with the blood thirster instead of have it shot off the board turn 1. And it may force him to move differently. end of turn 1, with the advance, he will have a lot of units in his backlines in fly+charge range of a very dangerous bloodthirster. He has to react to that.
I don’t think bloodblessed is good but it’s decent and played with the right way you probably will make a charge T 2. But if you’re playing vs a shooting army you probably have too charge the screen anyway as a better player won’t rush forward with it and wrap around his Killy stuff.
Also with the 9th Ed incoming and a stratagem for MW on the unit that makes a fall back move, you want more bodies as the stratagem says to roll for each of your own models so this hurts bigger things even more.
And finally. I must correct my previous statement, it was all the rules as the datasheets was just the same as before and things like “lord of the warp” probably was some random gak text.
I’m very disappointed in the new stuff we got, and hopefully we get a new codex this fall or start of winter with better rules and new toys for every different God!!
Eldenfirefly wrote: I still think bloodblessed is good (make a blood thirster can only take max 8 damage per phase). This enables your blood thirsty to go up the board with your whole army. Shield it with fodder demons from smites. So, basically, the opponent can only shoot at it.
If the opponent knows he can only inflict max 8 damage, maybe he wouldn't even bother targeting that bloodthirster.
Then turn 2, you fly over his fodder and charge/attack the juicy target you really want to kill. Bloodthirsters have wings. So, it should be super easy to fly over and charge something good rather than charge into a bunch of scouts.
Maybe you will die after that, who knows, but at least you got to do something with the blood thirster instead of have it shot off the board turn 1. And it may force him to move differently. end of turn 1, with the advance, he will have a lot of units in his backlines in fly+charge range of a very dangerous bloodthirster. He has to react to that.
then you take a look at Tsons cult of magic and you figure that dont work, this is just an example, same might happen with any list that can bring a decent amount of pyschic powers, remember that there are pyschic power that target anything, not just which unit is closer.
Anything will depend about what we will see in 9th edition, now is still early to tell if GD will be really playable outisde friendly games.
Here we go again, with the Keeper of Secrets constantly changing datasheet:
The Datasheet in the box:
The original Datasheet 10 attacks, permanent strength 6, and 14" base movement.
Chapter Approved - 2019
Changed to 6 attacks, depreciating strength, and 12" base
Chapter Approved - 2019 - FAQ
...and back to the original datasheet.
Engine War:
...and 10 attacks, permanent strength 6, and back down to 12" base movement.
So, the new publication of the datasheet needs to FAQ'd yet again.
I swear they don't proof read at all.
Played a game yesterday, with a mate in my garden :-)
Only 1k per side, Daemons VS Deathwatch.
I took a Thirster, Nurgle Herald, Nurglings, Plague Bearers, Letter Bomb, Soul grinder and an Exalted Flamer.
Roll on the exalted table and got "Max 8 dam" and "double wounds on table" traits, so not bad and I took the relic to get wounds back in combat.
He took first turn, we had lots of terrain but nothing to hide my thirster.... 1st squad take off the eight wounds.
I run him up and attempt and fail an 11" charge.
His second turn, 1st squad takes of the other 8 wounds.
I know deathwatch are a bad matchup for daemons with their 2+ to wound bolters and Hammers/shields everywhere but the thirster was so easily dealt with :-(
I'm really hoping that terrain will actually be able to help daemons in 9th, its just a detriment to us at the moment.
The PA exalted stuff is interesting but we needed a whole lot more, ideally a complete codex re-write as we fundementally just don't work as intended and even worse are un-interesting.
Tazberry wrote: Looking through 9th Ed rules and realizing that more or less all the rules so far is very bad for us Daemon players.
Blast weapons - always full hit on lesser daemons.
Tanks are though too crack open if not optimized for and will see more plays and can shoot in cc.
Vehicle and monsters can shoot in cc, how many do we have?
Hopefully we get better rules for terrain so we can foorslog at least some units and hide.
Yeah the 9th ed rules currently have me wondering if I should get rid tbh, an army where you're forced to pay P for detachments just to access 3/4 of the codex without losing rules, core infantry intended to function at 20+ and the monster/vehicle rework is actually worse imo for our monsters since the stuff they want to hit can now just shoot them in the face.
Tazberry wrote: Looking through 9th Ed rules and realizing that more or less all the rules so far is very bad for us Daemon players.
Blast weapons - always full hit on lesser daemons.
Tanks are though too crack open if not optimized for and will see more plays and can shoot in cc.
Vehicle and monsters can shoot in cc, how many do we have?
Hopefully we get better rules for terrain so we can foorslog at least some units and hide.
Well, assuming that the greater daemons stay at under 18 wounds, it looks like the new "OBSCURING" terrain keyword means that they will not be able to be targeted when drawing line of sight through those ruins.
Yeah, it's going to depend on what counts towards LoS. If you read the rule carefully, if the opponent can draw a line that doesn't go over the terrain then they can still shoot, so wing tips could still be a liability assuming what counts for LoS stays the same.
That said, hiding our Greater Daemons (sorry GUO) has become much easier.
The new Obscuring keyword definitely helps out my Lord of Change. But it's important to note that all of the keywords are optional and must be agreed upon at the start of the game, so it's not like we should expect EVERY 5" piece of terrain to have the Obscuring keyword.
I imagine it'll only come into play for very large pieces of terrain, ones that might hide 90% of a greater daemon, but maybe fail to cover the top 10% of its tallest bits. That would be a good application of the keyword. Ultimately the two players have to decide for themselves. GW isn't the one who is making the call here.
Otherwise I'd guess most terrain pieces will use true LOS as usual.
The new obscuring rules helps melee armies a lot. Unless the opponent is running alot of artillery like thunderfires, (which is an issue).
The main thing is that with obscuring rules, terrain is infinitely high now. If doesn't matter if the other side has devastators or centurions parked 3 stories up, they CANNOT see your melee unit as long as you have an intervening piece of obscuring terrain. And ruins, which are common terrain pieces can easily be considered obscuring.
A lot of "normal" shooting has been nerfed by these rules simply because they will not be able to see a unit that hugs obscuring terrain.
I think people are under estimating this "infinite" height consideration. I remember lots of times when normal ranged units are either parked at high ground or take the form of tall units like knights. Now, it doesn't matter how high the shooter is, as long as there is an intervening obscuring terrain, it can't shoot at you.
Obscuring terrain pieces are probably large enough to hide even a Greater daemon behind. What would be challenging to hide would be a 30 man strong plague bearer unit, or blood letter unit.
However, I .. am starting to think that GW doesn't believe an army made of primarily core infantry units should be a winning army list in the first place. Don't get me wrong, they created stuff like secondaries and I am sure there will still be Ob Sec, so troops still have roles to play.
However, I am just not sure GW actually thinks that an army with a balance of troops, elites, heavies, etc should lose to an army of nothing but 200 troops ...
Think about it. For every single faction, GW went to the trouble of creating elites, FA, heavy supports, etc plus the models for those slots. To GW, do you think they would be happy that a list of 200 troop models is a good list ? Because if that is the case, why did they even bother creating all those elites, FA, heavy support for that faction in the first place?
blackmage wrote: hordes time is over... take that and move on....
At the end of one of the Warhammer Community streams, apparently they mentioned something to the effect of "Don't worry, if you like hordes we have some good stuff coming up soon", so don't give up yet!
Kryddbov wrote: Do the 6+ fnp exalted reward for LoC stack with The Changelings 6+fnp ability?
While they are trying very hard not to talk about things not yet revealed, the Playtesters/YouTube personalities seem to be priming us for things to shift to elite builds.
I certainly hope hordes get something to offset the insulting 11+ = a horde. not only is it going to prevent me from ever running a full SoB squad again, id rather not have to shelve my 150+ daemonettes...
looks like my army is going to shift to just greater daemons, daemon princesses and maybe fiends/seekers... and hopefully forgeworld updates the big daddy daemons to not be a joke.
Personally i think 20+ should have been the designation of horde as it would line up with the unit buffs on our troops.
I know we don't have all the information about 9th yet, and can't reliably say what the meta might look like, but how many blasts do we think we would reasonably see? A d6 blast goes from 3.5 shots average to 6. That's not too much more per blast. Most lists I see don't have many blast weapons, and I more often run into issues with enemies using high ROF guns. Outside of a few edge cases, I wouldn't expect more than 20 additional shots from blasts, which after rolling to hit, wound, and save, results in like 6 additional dead models a turn.
I'm actually keen to see what morale looks like, because it sounds like we may not immediately evaporate after taking a few casualties.
warmaster21 wrote: I certainly hope hordes get something to offset the insulting 11+ = a horde. not only is it going to prevent me from ever running a full SoB squad again, id rather not have to shelve my 150+ daemonettes...
looks like my army is going to shift to just greater daemons, daemon princesses and maybe fiends/seekers... and hopefully forgeworld updates the big daddy daemons to not be a joke.
Personally i think 20+ should have been the designation of horde as it would line up with the unit buffs on our troops.
Yeah 11+ for "horde" is exceptionally bad, makes no sense and just adds "gamey" list building where you NEVER take units above 11+ (unless and not even sure about that the unit can go up to 30)
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JakeSiren wrote: I know we don't have all the information about 9th yet, and can't reliably say what the meta might look like, but how many blasts do we think we would reasonably see? A d6 blast goes from 3.5 shots average to 6. That's not too much more per blast. Most lists I see don't have many blast weapons, and I more often run into issues with enemies using high ROF guns. Outside of a few edge cases, I wouldn't expect more than 20 additional shots from blasts, which after rolling to hit, wound, and save, results in like 6 additional dead models a turn.
I'm actually keen to see what morale looks like, because it sounds like we may not immediately evaporate after taking a few casualties.
Quite many blasts since literally every old Blast/Large Blast weapon is becoming blast (GW said 174 weapons across the codices which is A LOT since there aren't duplicates in these 174 weapons)
JakeSiren wrote: I know we don't have all the information about 9th yet, and can't reliably say what the meta might look like, but how many blasts do we think we would reasonably see? A d6 blast goes from 3.5 shots average to 6. That's not too much more per blast. Most lists I see don't have many blast weapons, and I more often run into issues with enemies using high ROF guns. Outside of a few edge cases, I wouldn't expect more than 20 additional shots from blasts, which after rolling to hit, wound, and save, results in like 6 additional dead models a turn.
I'm actually keen to see what morale looks like, because it sounds like we may not immediately evaporate after taking a few casualties.
Quite many blasts since literally every old Blast/Large Blast weapon is becoming blast (GW said 174 weapons across the codices which is A LOT since there aren't duplicates in these 174 weapons)
Sure, but that requires people to actively take them. In the meta that I currently play in not too many people use (what was) blast weaponry, and I don't expect lists to change too dramatically just because of this.
With 9th edition I anticipate that the meta will focus on MSU for armies that can. As of such, people will likely favour a fixed number of shots instead of committing too heavily into blast weaponry.
blackmage wrote: hordes time is over... take that and move on....
At the end of one of the Warhammer Community streams, apparently they mentioned something to the effect of "Don't worry, if you like hordes we have some good stuff coming up soon", so don't give up yet!
Kryddbov wrote: Do the 6+ fnp exalted reward for LoC stack with The Changelings 6+fnp ability?
FNPs never stack.
hordes need to be tuned down, 8th edition was a slow game (at least play GW missions at tournaments) where you have 300+ models on the table.
Adrian and Brian from Tabletop Titans have done a couple bat reps already with Daemons. First was mono-Nurgle, 2nd was mono-Tzeentch.
GUO's are super tanky with 4+ DR and regenerating a wound per turn makes them annoying. They still don't really hit hard in melee but I never pictured GUO's as assault beasts.
Tzeentch got good, at least LoC. Adrian had on one of his LoC Aura of Mutability and Architect of Deception. -1 to hit and regaining wounds on a 6+ FNP is pretty gross and his LoC lasted quite a long time.
blackmage wrote: hordes time is over... take that and move on....
At the end of one of the Warhammer Community streams, apparently they mentioned something to the effect of "Don't worry, if you like hordes we have some good stuff coming up soon", so don't give up yet!
Kryddbov wrote: Do the 6+ fnp exalted reward for LoC stack with The Changelings 6+fnp ability?
FNPs never stack.
hordes need to be tuned down, 8th edition was a slow game (at least play GW missions at tournaments) where you have 300+ models on the table.
Ofc now you just take 3x10 man blobs instead of 1x30, might mean you need to fill out an extra brigade or something but it's hardly impossible to get 300 models on the board.
Especially for daemons who simply don't have an elite msu option.
jivardi wrote: Adrian and Brian from Tabletop Titans have done a couple bat reps already with Daemons. First was mono-Nurgle, 2nd was mono-Tzeentch.
GUO's are super tanky with 4+ DR and regenerating a wound per turn makes them annoying. They still don't really hit hard in melee but I never pictured GUO's as assault beasts.
Tzeentch got good, at least LoC. Adrian had on one of his LoC Aura of Mutability and Architect of Deception. -1 to hit and regaining wounds on a 6+ FNP is pretty gross and his LoC lasted quite a long time.
We need to have the whole 9th edition rules to see how demons can perform, still talk of 8th actually have few sense.
blackmage wrote: hordes time is over... take that and move on....
At the end of one of the Warhammer Community streams, apparently they mentioned something to the effect of "Don't worry, if you like hordes we have some good stuff coming up soon", so don't give up yet!
Kryddbov wrote: Do the 6+ fnp exalted reward for LoC stack with The Changelings 6+fnp ability?
FNPs never stack.
hordes need to be tuned down, 8th edition was a slow game (at least play GW missions at tournaments) where you have 300+ models on the table.
Ofc now you just take 3x10 man blobs instead of 1x30, might mean you need to fill out an extra brigade or something but it's hardly impossible to get 300 models on the board.
Especially for daemons who simply don't have an elite msu option.
if cultists got to 6pt you can imagine how much a plaguebearer/demonette can be at least 9-10pts each, if infantry got some rules that help them wade trough the hell of fire that wh40k is , or next edition will be an edition of elitary army lists (and maybe is a good things at least for tournaments where you have to play 3 games in few hours).
the only long part about daemon hordes (at least for slaanesh) is just deploying and moving them, sure it takes awhile but its not like we have a shooting phase to sit through,
and if you are really worried about time by sacrificing some finesse you can just put everything on movement trays which will speed up the early turns where you can move the entire unit effortlessly.
I'm working on mounting my entire army on magnetized movement treys and having said movement tray stored in a magnetic case.
New Overwatch rules help Daemons alot, in addition to the cover rules.
Our opponents must spend 1 CP to OW and can only target ONE unit.
A unit of Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster charges into an Aggressors unit. That unit can either fire at the BT OR the Bloodletters, not both. If they choose to not shoot the Bloodletters and the BL's make it into "Engagement Range" the Aggressors CANNOT fire overwatch at the Bloodthirster.
If the Aggressors fire at the Bloodletters, almost for sure wiping them out totally the BT maybe makes it into CC (depending on the dice gods) and proceeds to hack the Aggressors apart in the fight phase (again, barring horrible rolls).
Being able to DS within 1" of an enemy unit if you do so within your DZ is also nice. Might mean that banking a few points for Deamon Summoning is viable. Summon an assaulty unit (like letters, nettes, fiends, etc), drop them within 1" and charge. No overwatch for the unit having Daemons dropped on their heads and as a late game strat against units that are trying to grab objectives in your own DZ it could be a game changer.
Sure, other armies can do it to us but I think Daemons benefit the most from these changes.
jivardi wrote: New Overwatch rules help Daemons alot, in addition to the cover rules.
Our opponents must spend 1 CP to OW and can only target ONE unit.
A unit of Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster charges into an Aggressors unit. That unit can either fire at the BT OR the Bloodletters, not both. If they choose to not shoot the Bloodletters and the BL's make it into "Engagement Range" the Aggressors CANNOT fire overwatch at the Bloodthirster.
If the Aggressors fire at the Bloodletters, almost for sure wiping them out totally the BT maybe makes it into CC (depending on the dice gods) and proceeds to hack the Aggressors apart in the fight phase (again, barring horrible rolls).
Being able to DS within 1" of an enemy unit if you do so within your DZ is also nice. Might mean that banking a few points for Deamon Summoning is viable. Summon an assaulty unit (like letters, nettes, fiends, etc), drop them within 1" and charge. No overwatch for the unit having Daemons dropped on their heads and as a late game strat against units that are trying to grab objectives in your own DZ it could be a game changer.
Sure, other armies can do it to us but I think Daemons benefit the most from these changes.
The more they show the more it looks like using small 10 man blocks of daemons is going to be the way forwards, harder to wipe them all, avoid blasts, easy to hide and whilst you lose the bonus for being 20+ models, you've better odds of getting the job done.
Well, looking more closely at the new Slaanesh Datasheet from Engine War there were some unexpected changes and more errors...yeah.
The Contorted Epitome:
The units weapons have been swapped.
Their Ravaging Claws are now the primary attack, and the Coiled Tentacles are the secondary attack.
The strength value was lowered by 1, and Coiled Tentacles gained +1 strength.
The net effect is that the Ravaging Claws are S5 instead of S6.
But the Heralds can now take the Slothful Claw relic without losing all the units attacks.
The Infernal Enrapturess:
Her Harmonic Alignment ability was changed to only effect the DAEMON faction.
So she can only revive slain models from Codex Chaos Daemons – Slaanesh Daemons.
She cannot revive CSM Slaanesh Daemons like Possessed or Obliterators.
Herald of Slaanesh on Hellflayer:
There is a typo where the Heralds Ravaging Claw being D1 instead of D2.
Her Harmonic Alignment ability was changed to only effect the DAEMON faction.
So she can only revive slain models from Codex Chaos Daemons – Slaanesh Daemons.
She cannot revive CSM Slaanesh Daemons like Possessed or Obliterators.
Fortunately for you GW doesnt know their own rules. They have clarified in the FAQs that once the battle has begun there is no more difference between keywords and faction keywords. The example provided shows a buff from a codex daemon unit on a unit from codex CSM.
Q: What is the difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction keywords are
used when building an army; when Battle-forging an
army, for instance, you will often only be able to include
units in the same detachment if they share the same
Faction keyword. Also, if you are playing a matched
play game, you will need to have an Army Faction – this
is a Faction keyword that is shared by all of the units
in your entire army (with the exception of those that
are Unaligned). Once the battle has begun, there is
no functional difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword.
For example, when creating a Battle-forged army for matched
play, I take two Patrol Detachments; the first contains only units
with the Heretic Astartes Faction keyword, and the second
contains only units with the Daemon Faction keyword. My Army
Faction is ‘Chaos’ because this is a Faction keyword every unit
in the entire army shares.
Once the battle has begun, the distinction between keywords
and Faction keywords no longer has any effect – both are used
to interact with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that the
Heretic Astartes Detachment contains a unit of Possessed
(which does not have the Daemon Faction keyword, but does
have the Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to replace
their <Mark of Chaos> keyword with Khorne. If the
Daemon Detachment contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability
to ‘add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne Daemons’
would also apply to the unit of Possessed, as they have both the
Khorne and Daemon keywords.
There is another entry in the daemons FAQ that says that stratagems from the codex daemons can only be played on units with the daemon faction keyword. But, you are in luck again, because harmonic alignment is not a stratagem.
Harmonic Alignment: When this model attempts to summon a SLAANESH DAEMON unit using the
Daemonic Ritual ability, add 3 to the summoning roll. In addition, at the start of your turn, roll one D6 for
each SLAANESH unit from your army that has the DAEMON Faction keyword and is within 6" of any friendly
models with this ability; on a 6 you can return one destroyed model from that unit to the battlefield with all of its
wounds remaining, placing it in unit coherency (if the model cannot be placed in this way, it is not returned to
the battlefield).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was successfully derailed from why I came to the thread, which was to note someone has won what sounds like a small 3 round tournament using a pure daemon army, consisting of:
Nurgle Battalion
GUO with Bilesword and Flail
Poxbringer
Nurglings X 9
Nurglings X 4
Nurglings X 4
Undivided Battalion
LoC with Impossible Robe and Staff
Epitome of Slaanesh
Horrors (5 blue, 5 brim)
Horrors (5 blue, 5 brim)
Horrors (5 blue, 5 brim)
Khorne Battalion
Bloodthirster of unfettered fury Khorne
DP with Axe
Bloodletters X 20 with all fixings
Bloodletters X 10
Bloodletters X 10
120ish points of summoning
Kind of heartening and dis-heartening at the same time.
Nice to see a win is possible.
But, not a single elite, fast attack or heavy support in sight. I don't like so much power being wrapped up in expensive models that are one rules change away from going back to expensive paperweights.
It's possible to win small tournaments with any army. The variance in a game like 40k is extremely high. The smaller the tournament the higher the chance you'll dodge bad matchups and get lucky on a few critical dice rolls.
Harmonic Alignment: When this model attempts to summon a SLAANESH DAEMON unit using the
Daemonic Ritual ability, add 3 to the summoning roll. In addition, at the start of your turn, roll one D6 for
each SLAANESH unit from your army that has the DAEMON Faction keyword and is within 6" of any friendly
models with this ability; on a 6 you can return one destroyed model from that unit to the battlefield with all of its
wounds remaining, placing it in unit coherency (if the model cannot be placed in this way, it is not returned to
the battlefield).
What FAQs ? You quoted a regular rule. FAQs overrule regular rules.
I was just sticking in the other rules wording so everyone can read it.
The two FAQs you mentioned in your post seem to contradict each other:
O: What is the difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction keywords are
used when building an army; when Battle-forging an
army, for instance, you will often only be able to include
units in the same detachment if they share the same
Faction keyword. Also, if you are playing a matched
play game, you will need to have an Army Faction – this
is a Faction keyword that is shared by all of the units
in your entire army (with the exception of those that
are Unaligned). Once the battle has begun, there is
no functional difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword. For example, when creating a Battle-forged army for matched
play, I take two Patrol Detachments; the first contains only units
with the Heretic Astartes Faction keyword, and the second
contains only units with the Daemon Faction keyword. My Army
Faction is ‘Chaos’ because this is a Faction keyword every unit
in the entire army shares.
Once the battle has begun, the distinction between keywords
and Faction keywords no longer has any effect – both are used
to interact with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that the
Heretic Astartes Detachment contains a unit of Possessed
(which does not have the Daemon Faction keyword, but does
have the Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to replace
their <Mark of Chaos> keyword with Khorne. If the
Daemon Detachment contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability
to ‘add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne Daemons’
would also apply to the unit of Possessed, as they have both the
Khorne and Daemon keywords.
I've bolded the part i'm focusing on which doesn't limit itself to abilities only, rather than the underlined part you were focusing on which does just relate to abilities only. The underlined part is just explaining one aspect of the wider bolded rule.
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses
the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with
the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon
Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the
Daemon Faction keyword.
This FAQ seems clear if I am trying to use a strategem on a non faction DAEMON before the battle.
However, once the battle has begun, the first FAQ also takes effect and it states, there is now no functional difference betrween keywords and faction keywords. As such, I should either be able to use the strategems on any DAEMON or not use the strategems at all, because once the battle has begun the game no longer recognises a functional difference.
Alternatively, my view is we have to accept that the use of the word faction next to a keyword (in either an FAQ or a datasheet ability) has some meaning.
buddha wrote: Anyone get any games in yet with the new rules? Would love to hear battle experiences.
Not a fan of greater daemons, so to me the only relevant stratagems are minions of magic and flames of mutation. Both worked fine, as expected. I placed a changecaster and 6 flamers in the warp, deepstriked them, played minions of magic at the start of the psychic phase, and manifested infernal gateway as the first psychic power, and did some MWs to a SM castle with intercessors, ancient, captain, lieutenant. In the shooting phase i used flames of mutation to get some additional MWs for the flamers.
We just got a massive buff from the new morale rules. Daemons are basically the only horde army that doesn't have easy access to fearless so these changes affect us a lot.
Morale casualties are now "soft-capped" at 1/6 or 1/3 of your remaining squad size, which means it's now extremely difficult to lose a unit from morale. This is a huge change from 8th where there was literally no limit to the number of morale casualties you could take.
With the new rules your opponent will actually have to kill most of the models in your daemon blobs. No more killing half and watching the rest flee. This also means your daemon blobs are going take way more morale tests than last edition, which means more chances for your icon to kick in and bring back D6 daemons.
Pink horrors in particular will almost never be under half strength due to bodies generated by splitting so even if they fail every single morale test every turn, at most they're only ever going to lose 1/6 of the squad on average. And since splitting happens before morale, those casualties are definitely going to be brimstones.
If relative points values remain where they're at, pink horrors are going to become a nightmare tarpit unit for 9th edition.
With the new morale however, is there still much value in taking banners outside of requiring them for some of the stratagems? I used them mostly for the chance of morale mitigation, however now that a 1 automatically passes, this seams less valuable. Sure, d6 models coming back is nice, but I could just buy 2 more troop models per banner and would likely end up with more models than what would be returned over the life of the game.
If you take a morale test every turn you wlil average 3.5 models back over the course of the game. I don't think it's worth it unless you're running max size squads. But if you are running max size squads icons can help you extend the life of that squad which can sometimes ruin your opponent's plans. There's no way to "buy 2 more models" when you're already at 30 so that's where I'd use them.
Also I believe plaguebearers have a way to roll 2D6 choose lowest on morale, so it's definitely worth it there.
In the case of 30 splitting pinks, it's definitely worth it. It basically turns 150 wounds into 165-170 wounds.
Daemonettes also have Syl'Eskee for the roll 2d6 take lowest. That becomes about 7 models back per game *if* you take morale every time. In my experience, I tend to take morale at most 3 times on a squad before it is wiped out, but usually it's only once for a max squad.
The splitting pinks is certainly interesting as a tar pit unit and durable objective holder. Getting 150 wounds from the unit is unlikely (morale would likely eliminate some before splitting) and requires you to hold points in reserve. It makes for an interesting balancing act as you can grow over your initial unit size, but that would result in more casualties due to morale! 9th ed points values will be interesting to see and will determine how valuable splitting will be. As it stands, you can buy 2 additional units of pinks for the points you would spend on splitting all the way down (and with change too!). 60 less wounds, but more board presence, better saves, AND actual shooting! Potentially 180 shots BS 4+ S3 (or 4, or 5 depending on buffs).
In any case I'm really looking forward to trying out pinks. Capping morale losses at 1/6 of the unit size makes splitting very interesting.
It will no longer be possible to kill 40 horrors and cause another 33-39 horrors to automatically flee. Instead, say if the remaining post-split unit size is 50 horrors, only 8 will flee. That is a big difference.
Plaguebearers with banner and sloppity is going to be better.
Fishing for 1's is fun. Take 1 casualty you won't lose any models but roll 2d6 hoping for a 1.
The rules don't prohibit us from rolling morale even if we KNOW we won't fail. Obviously with units that don't have banners you can't fish.
In 9th if I lose 10 plaguebearers I roll 2d6, pick the lowest. If I fail I lose 1 plaguebearer and then roll d6 for each of the other 9 (i take mine in 20 strong). I'll lose 2 more on average so I've lost 13.
Currently if a roll a 5 and 6 and I can't reroll the "5" for some reason I lose (10+5-7) = 8 more for a total of 18 dead.
With the new cover and blast rules anyone giving a second look at skull cannons? I feel like they might be a good choice in most lists of the points remain reasonable.
buddha wrote: With the new cover and blast rules anyone giving a second look at skull cannons? I feel like they might be a good choice in most lists of the points remain reasonable.
I've got two and I'll definitely be playing them now. Hopefully the BS and WS of the Soul Grinder will be improved to make it worthwhile as well.
jivardi wrote: Plaguebearers with banner and sloppity is going to be better.
Fishing for 1's is fun. Take 1 casualty you won't lose any models but roll 2d6 hoping for a 1.
The rules don't prohibit us from rolling morale even if we KNOW we won't fail. Obviously with units that don't have banners you can't fish.
In 9th if I lose 10 plaguebearers I roll 2d6, pick the lowest. If I fail I lose 1 plaguebearer and then roll d6 for each of the other 9 (i take mine in 20 strong). I'll lose 2 more on average so I've lost 13.
Currently if a roll a 5 and 6 and I can't reroll the "5" for some reason I lose (10+5-7) = 8 more for a total of 18 dead.
I gain 5 Plaguebearers in 9th.
The counterpoint is if you take 2 casualties, the max models you can lose to morale in 8th is 1, but in 9th you would lose 4 (in a 20 man squad, or 4.5 in a 30 man).
I'm wondering if 9th might see the bigger units like plague drones come back - at 9 models theyre not getting destroyed by blast weapons, still very hard to kill, and screen very well for smaller characters
jivardi wrote: Plaguebearers with banner and sloppity is going to be better.
Fishing for 1's is fun. Take 1 casualty you won't lose any models but roll 2d6 hoping for a 1.
The rules don't prohibit us from rolling morale even if we KNOW we won't fail. Obviously with units that don't have banners you can't fish.
In 9th if I lose 10 plaguebearers I roll 2d6, pick the lowest. If I fail I lose 1 plaguebearer and then roll d6 for each of the other 9 (i take mine in 20 strong). I'll lose 2 more on average so I've lost 13.
Currently if a roll a 5 and 6 and I can't reroll the "5" for some reason I lose (10+5-7) = 8 more for a total of 18 dead.
I gain 5 Plaguebearers in 9th.
The counterpoint is if you take 2 casualties, the max models you can lose to morale in 8th is 1, but in 9th you would lose 4 (in a 20 man squad, or 4.5 in a 30 man).
I'm wondering if 9th might see the bigger units like plague drones come back - at 9 models theyre not getting destroyed by blast weapons, still very hard to kill, and screen very well for smaller characters
If your opponent only manages to kill 4 plaguebearers while the unit is at full strength, that's a win. Plague drones coming back would be amazing. They've always been decent and I absolutely love the models.
Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.
Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.
Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.
Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.
The general rule that a unit can only attempt each power it knows a single time would prevent you from casting Smite multiple times from the same source.
With all these changes im not even sure where thats going to leave me with mono slaanesh. Supreme command being changed, anti-horde ruleset.. maybe ill have to invest in some chariots or learn Age of sigmar (pray warhammer comes back)
Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.
Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.
The general rule that a unit can only attempt each power it knows a single time would prevent you from casting Smite multiple times from the same source.
No, I think Jivardi is correct. The way the rules are written for 9th doesn't prevent multiple casts of smite by a single psyker. Although it is possible that a clause was overlooked, if you want to point out which section / paragraph it is in (not sure on the forum rules of quoting the actual text in this situation)
No limit in smite atm. Big Bird exalted do 4 smites with +2 bonus and +1 damage from 30" away.
outside of that, daemons are pretty much fracked. Troops will get crushed from blast weapons. Greater daemons from eradicators, smaller HQs are now limited because SupCom is gone.
Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.
Burning chariot will probably be able to fly + shoot with no penalty so that's a thing I guess, and skull cannons are a bit better, but that's about it honestly.
Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.
The Judicar only affects 1 unit in combat. It'll be no different to if you were playing vs the Drukhari mask relic. You'll prob see the Judicar in a few lists, but i doubt you'll see it in every Marine list, simply because it takes up a HQ slot and you're going to want to avoid buying additional detachments when, and where, you can.
Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.
The Judicar only affects 1 unit in combat. It'll be no different to if you were playing vs the Drukhari mask relic. You'll prob see the Judicar in a few lists, but i doubt you'll see it in every Marine list, simply because it takes up a HQ slot and you're going to want to avoid buying additional detachments when, and where, you can.
Khorne and Slaanesh are DoA because Judicar exists now, Nurgle is capped on -1 to hit so he's out too.
The Judicar only affects 1 unit in combat. It'll be no different to if you were playing vs the Drukhari mask relic. You'll prob see the Judicar in a few lists, but i doubt you'll see it in every Marine list, simply because it takes up a HQ slot and you're going to want to avoid buying additional detachments when, and where, you can.
It's an elite. You'll be seeing them aplenty.
Oh, my mistake then... Hrm.... It'll be a problem, but a workable one imo.
Changes I see: Each psyker model/unit has to attempt all their powers before you can move onto the next psyker so no more bunny hopping around. Gotta plan your activation's ahead of time.
Nothing that says Smite is limited to one attempt per character. Just says the cost goes up by one and that it can be cast multiple times per turn but doesn't specifically say once per model. I'm sure it's intended once per model/unit but maybe not.
I suspect the Smite limit will be in the Matched Play rules, just like they were last edition. Rule of Three also hasn't been mentioned but again, it should be in the Matched Play section which hasn't been revealed yet.
I hope that the supreme command detachment opens up for more characters, as it would be perfect for the named greater daemons, and I would love to use it for Kairos.
I'm going to try to keep my plaguebearers in woods.
-1 to be hit (yeah it doesn't stack with the -1 to hit for being over 20 strong but now I don't need to take units of 20+ to get the same benefit) is still incredible and I can take units of 10 to be able to spread out my objective holders more.
Armies (other than Tau) need to blow a CP to OW and can only select 1 unit to OW with so I don't think Bloodletters and Daemonettes are all that hosed.
I never liked multicharging. Some units you need weight of attacks to wipe out and putting 5 bloodletters on 3 different units sometimes meant that my big bomb of 15 was as effective as a unit of 10 gaurdsman. I'd rather put all 15 (or as many as possible, probably more than 5) on a single unit, wipe it and then eat the shooting the following turn.
That's kind of what BL bombs did anyway.
We can pay CP to hold those units in SR (up to 1/2 of our army can go into SR so 1k points in a 2k game).
The BEAST and SWARM keywords showing up in 90% of terrain rules alongside INFANTRY looks like a net buff. Quite a few underplayed units had those. Also, looking forward to imagining my Flesh Hounds running up the sides of buildings!
Then the engagement range of 5" vertical, 1" horizontal works for the rest of our units with the CAVALRY, CHARIOT or MONSTER keyword.
Slaanesh Quicksilver Swiftness seems to be getting a buff based on my interpretation of the fight order rules (see one of my other recent posts in another thread). Although now that I read the actual rule:
This unit always fight first in the Fight
phase, even if it didn’t charge. If the enemy
has units that have charged, or that have
a similar ability, then alternate choosing
units to fight with, starting with the player
whose turn is taking place.
Contradicts the fight order in 9th... Hopefully gets an early FAQ.
Quite a few DAEMON PSYKERS tend to only cast one spell each, making them excellent options to do a Psychic action secondary.
I'm reading that Quicksilver still allows Slaanesh units to attack first.
Say we charge with a KoS and we already have Daemonettes in melee from the previous turn. The KoS attacks first. Our oppennt would then get to fight next but only if the unit has a similar ability to "quicksilver". if they don't than our Daemonettes attack before his unit they are engaged with.
The unit in question doesn't have the ability to always fight first innately, it's just part of the fight phase turn order.
The only part that changes is that if it's a Daemonette vs Daemonette fight then our opponent would fight first after our KoS.
Not many units have that rule so our Slaanesh units will be fighting first most times, even when we don't charge. Now I could be wrong but that is how I read the rule.
If my interpretation is correct mono-Slaanesh got a buff as we always fight first with everything, even if it isn't our turn (unless again fighting units with similar rules to "quicksilver".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nurglings being -1 to hit in dense cover like woods. Sure, ruins don't do much good for improving survivability for Nurglings but -1 to hit with 5+/5++ still makes them hard to shift.
Take units of 3-5 and blast weapons don't improve against them at all.
warmaster21 wrote: With all these changes im not even sure where thats going to leave me with mono slaanesh. Supreme command being changed, anti-horde ruleset.. maybe ill have to invest in some chariots or learn Age of sigmar (pray warhammer comes back)
Yeah, there's a lot not to like about these changes if you play mono-Slaanesh:
The engagement range change from 1" to 1/2" really hurts models on 25 mm bases like Daemonettes as fewer models will be able to attack in the fight phase.
Making characters more vulnerable to shooting really didn't help given our tissue paper characters; especially since we absolutely rely on the Heralds +1S aura.
While we have reliable ways to keep units in combat both Fiends and the Epitome have been made even more vulnerable than before.
I'm also disappointed that the Enrapturess's Lyre didn't get blast for its heavy firing mode.
warmaster21 wrote: With all these changes im not even sure where thats going to leave me with mono slaanesh. Supreme command being changed, anti-horde ruleset.. maybe ill have to invest in some chariots or learn Age of sigmar (pray warhammer comes back)
Yeah, there's a lot not to like about these changes if you play mono-Slaanesh:
The engagement range change from 1" to 1/2" really hurts models on 25 mm bases like Daemonettes as fewer models will be able to attack in the fight phase.
Making characters more vulnerable to shooting really didn't help given our tissue paper characters; especially since we absolutely rely on the Heralds +1S aura.
While we have reliable ways to keep units in combat both Fiends and the Epitome have been made even more vulnerable than before.
I'm also disappointed that the Enrapturess's Lyre didn't get blast for its heavy firing mode.
Let's just hope were one of the early codices.
Im hoping that summoning will change (or gain a new option) where we can use it like a medic and return models to units that way instead of only summoning new units. would at least do something... at the very least maybe they will let us take multiple heralds as a single HQ choice.. Hopefully with forgeworld updates Zarakynel becomes playable and falls under supreme leader so we can take her in a supreme command.
It appears that the strength of demons will be in units which where the opposite of competitive in 9th. That’s right, Greater Demons. First off engagement range is much better for them since 5’ inch vertical allows them to engage units on the second floor. Second not
having character protection isn’t as problematic for them, since it’s far weaker in 9th vs 8th. This makes taking a greater demon over a Buffing character far less painful, and means greater demons compare more favorable to other armies HQ’s.
I also think exalted Big Bird is genuinely great. 3++ permanently on 16 wound model is already a strong start. If you add the -1 damage warlord trait, and the 6+++ saves heal wounds exalted trait he’s nearly unkillable. Of course you can turn that 6+++ into permanent denies against grey knights, thousand Sons, Eldar, etc.
4++ keeper of secrets, 4+++ Great Unclean Ones, and protection against 8+ wounds bloodthirsters are solid options. In this case I think I like 4++ keeper of secrets to go with with my unkillable Lord of change, but there’s probably a more optimal combination somewhere out there.
Honestly, I’m not sure if anything besides Big bird is top tier competitive, but threat overload is a tried and true tactic. At the very least, I don’t think this is going to worse than blobs of guys protecting characters. That strategy got nerfed too much to remain viable. So with any luck Greater Demon builds will work, and demons won’t be bad until the codex drops.
I think Ol' Fatey has a place. He's not as tanky as an ELoC but his d3 CP before the game is really good, he's got a 36" Smite that goes off on 3+.
I think the key to GD is to run multiples. Depending on our daemon selection and points changes I can see a Brigade being a good option. Or take a battalion, pay 2CP and take a patrol as well. If you roll a 3+ for Fates pregame CP bonus the Pat is essentially free.
Salt donkey wrote: It appears that the strength of demons will be in units which where the opposite of competitive in 9th. That’s right, Greater Demons. First off engagement range is much better for them since 5’ inch vertical allows them to engage units on the second floor. Second not
having character protection isn’t as problematic for them, since it’s far weaker in 9th vs 8th. This makes taking a greater demon over a Buffing character far less painful, and means greater demons compare more favorable to other armies HQ’s.
I also think exalted Big Bird is genuinely great. 3++ permanently on 16 wound model is already a strong start. If you add the -1 damage warlord trait, and the 6+++ saves heal wounds exalted trait he’s nearly unkillable. Of course you can turn that 6+++ into permanent denies against grey knights, thousand Sons, Eldar, etc.
4++ keeper of secrets, 4+++ Great Unclean Ones, and protection against 8+ wounds bloodthirsters are solid options. In this case I think I like 4++ keeper of secrets to go with with my unkillable Lord of change, but there’s probably a more optimal combination somewhere out there.
Honestly, I’m not sure if anything besides Big bird is top tier competitive, but threat overload is a tried and true tactic. At the very least, I don’t think this is going to worse than blobs of guys protecting characters. That strategy got nerfed too much to remain viable. So with any luck Greater Demon builds will work, and demons won’t be bad until the codex drops.
For some reason when i first read your post i thought you were talking about big daddy bird from forgeworld.
Keepers was one of the only realistic ways in which you could play mono slaanesh, they used to be only slightly more cost than a daemon prince with similar speed and better stats and a worse aura ability. While there are some good defensive options for exalted slaanesh mono slaanesh has been neutered a bit with horde changes, rework of supreme command, there is no way in which you could take keepers, daemon princes, heralds without running at least 2 detachments, and while there arent really good strategems / relics worth using on slaanesh daemons (im not too familiar with the new ones as i haven't bought any psychic awakening book after how insulting the DE book was) it still puts us on a disadvantage compared to other armies that dont need to take 2+ detachments to make the army work.
Im still not even sure what the stats are on keepers anymore they have changed like 2-3 times and i honestly cant tell if the most recent one is intentional or if they were just lazy copy/paste transcription errors.
Ill probably be sitting on the sidelines until i see a new DE and Daemon Codex, and we shall see how SoB turns out with the point changes on release but from the rumors the changes seem pretty bad in comparison.. though i will probably at least try a few games with my slaanesh daemons to see if i can even get them to run how i want with the changes.
Lords of Change are fun but they lack damage. They're only somewhat durable and worse, they can be safely screened, kited, and ignored by most factions.
If you roll and get lucky (I know) they can have -1 to hit and 6+++ that heals a wound for every 6 rolled.
Give it the Impossible Robes and make it even harder to kill.
Smiting on 3+, 30" out if given the Rod (and I don't know why you wouldn't).
Not to mention on the smaller board there is less room to kite it around, he's in Smite range more or less the entire game and depending on terrain set up they can be easier to hide.
The GD's have gotten harder to kill in 9th, not easier.
Thinking of doing mono khorne to use some models i have in 9th.
Just looking into the new rules and i'm right in thinking strategic reserve is pretty much only worth it for the chance of your own board edge 1" count as charging thing?
In all other cases it appears the Denizens of the warp strat just trumps it!?
Also how have people been getting on with blood crushers? New strat from engine war, pts seem healthy now and 9th does not mess them up to much for coherency (obv run em in a 5) they seem pretty nasty, or is it a crush one unit - die next turn owing to poor defense still?
slave.entity wrote: Lords of Change are fun but they lack damage. They're only somewhat durable and worse, they can be safely screened, kited, and ignored by most factions.
Outside of things that no longer exist like unkillable dreadnoughts, could you name something tougher than a 16 W, 3++, 6+++ healing FNP, -1 damage model monster? I can’t. This is tougher than fully buffed magnus (who won’t always be fully buffed), knights with 3++ save (as a LOC with the regen upgrade has effectively 22.166 wounds, -1 D, and keeps his 3++ save in CC. Also he’s much more resilient to smite than knights since he gets 2, +2 denies.
You are right that he’s pillowfisted in combat but his psychic abilities + raw durability makes up for this. Remember you can spend 1CP to cast another power, meaning you could be using 3 mortal wound powers in 1 psychic phase. That adds up turn after turn. Even 5-3 S6 attacks add up when they do 3 damage and you keep attacking with him turn after turn. Don’t sleep on the LOC!
I play my LOC all the time. But casual only. When I want durability I take plaguebearers.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fun unit and far from unplayable. It just... doesn't contribute much. For your opponent, LoCs are more annoying than strong.
Also in 9th being unable to fall back and infernal gateway is a big problem. He's likely to get charged and spend the next 2 turns munching guardsmen.
just consider that 8th edition was the horde ediction, so for LOC wasn't a nice edition, now maybe could change, this will be the edition of elites, smaller/costly units can be a good target for LOC.
Hey Hey.... We finally got a Faction Focus and....
Daemon beasts and swarms can move like infantry through terrain.
Daemons in general can get a cover save easier, which counts for nothing when you have 6+ armor and an unmodifiable 5+ invulnerable save anyway.
Also Look Out Sir and the changes to Overwatch...okay.
Also Confirmation that the Keeper of Secrets has had is movement reduced down to 12" So effectively Realm Racer just gets you back to the 2" they just took away. Nice.
Sersi wrote: Hey Hey.... We finally got a Faction Focus and....
Daemon beasts and swarms can move like infantry through terrain.
Daemons in general can get a cover save easier, which counts for nothing when you have 6+ armor and an unmodifiable 5+ invulnerable save anyway.
Also Look Out Sir and the changes to Overwatch...okay.
Also Confirmation that the Keeper of Secrets has had is movement reduced down to 12" So effectively Realm Racer just gets you back to the 2" they just took away. Nice.
When was the KoS ever more than a 12" move? The 8th ed Daemon codex listed it as having 12" move; far as I know the CA book upgraded her wounds and added the new wargear options; she used to be a 12 wound GD when all others had 16 wounds. So it's 12 plus the 3" for the warlord trait plus 2" for realm racer. 17" move +1" to her charge range. Min threat distance is 20", max 29".
That's a long goddamn distance.
I like the Sinistrous hand. She's almost guaranteed to kill something and to regain lost wounds makes her quite tanky. The aegis is good too for the 5+++ save against mortal wounds.
Sersi wrote: Hey Hey.... We finally got a Faction Focus and....
Daemon beasts and swarms can move like infantry through terrain.
Daemons in general can get a cover save easier, which counts for nothing when you have 6+ armor and an unmodifiable 5+ invulnerable save anyway.
Also Look Out Sir and the changes to Overwatch...okay.
Also Confirmation that the Keeper of Secrets has had is movement reduced down to 12" So effectively Realm Racer just gets you back to the 2" they just took away. Nice.
When was the KoS ever more than a 12" move? The 8th ed Daemon codex listed it as having 12" move; far as I know the CA book upgraded her wounds and added the new wargear options; she used to be a 12 wound GD when all others had 16 wounds. So it's 12 plus the 3" for the warlord trait plus 2" for realm racer. 17" move +1" to her charge range. Min threat distance is 20", max 29".
That's a long goddamn distance.
I like the Sinistrous hand. She's almost guaranteed to kill something and to regain lost wounds makes her quite tanky. The aegis is good too for the 5+++ save against mortal wounds.
Good to know my mono-Nurgle gets CP free trees.
you might play 1 single KOS in casual games, but if you think to be competitive you play at least 3, in that case have a KOS so fast matter a few because it will be wipped out 1st turn. Demons need a new codex, was alredy old in last months of 8th, after marines release it was mediocre, now cant be better. A codex that relay on mass of infantry is not in good spot in 9th.
This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.
Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.
I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.
I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.
This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.
Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.
I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.
I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.
very optimistic, we will see maybe you are right, i own hundred of demons infantry model, i would be happy if you are right
This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.
Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.
I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.
I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.
very optimistic, we will see maybe you are right, i own hundred of demons infantry model, i would be happy if you are right
We won't be top tier but don't think we'll be the worst either. Have to see in a few months what the meta is. This covid lockdown has cancelled/postponed tournaments and other gatherings. I can't even play at my LGS so I can't really test out the army against other armies. I'd have to play against myself and that's not really a fair outing.
Hope to have a new Codex in the next 12 months. Daemons aren't top tier, even with soup, so it's not like we can fall much further in the rankings.
3 EGD of any or same type plus massed troops I think is going to be a very solid core for 9th. I'm likely going for undivided mix of PB blobs for objective sitting, horrors for my screens and forward troops and bloodletters for direct assault. Nurglings get the shelf.
As in 8th, our other non-HQ or troops choices are middling at best. I'm going to experiment with 2-3 skull cannons and a seeker blob.
This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.
Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.
I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.
I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.
Bloodletters used to be T4 and a 3+ save, or really khorne in general, rip brass armor.
I think massed infantry will go the way of the dodo. Nurglings, however, are poised to be amazing as troops. They can chuck a lot of wounds into an obsec tough 5 man unit.
I expect a mono-patrol of slaanesh (2 keepers and 1 daemonettes) for the aura and then an undivided bat to be the way to go.
The mirror will be uniquely valuable because tri-pointing is gone, leaving daemons one of the only ones able to lock into melee.
The character protection debuff is kind of a shadow buff to daemons whose HQs already often didn't get character protection (greater demons). It will also now be much easier to hide the two better greater demons (KoS and LoC) since they can both have LoS blocked by obscuring, which was a pipe dream for much of 8th.
Points will determine a lot, but I think daemons will be better off, not worse off. Not that they will be good; I very much doubt that, but I do think they will be better now.
buddha wrote: 3 EGD of any or same type plus massed troops I think is going to be a very solid core for 9th. I'm likely going for undivided mix of PB blobs for objective sitting, horrors for my screens and forward troops and bloodletters for direct assault. Nurglings get the shelf.
As in 8th, our other non-HQ or troops choices are middling at best. I'm going to experiment with 2-3 skull cannons and a seeker blob.
I've been digging the idea of 3 soul grinders with the 3 EGD. They help to increase threat skew. I think having Slaanesh SG will be a good option - T1 move up the board, T2 advance and charge. Really, Soul Grinders have become better now that they can shoot in combat.
drakerocket wrote: I think massed infantry will go the way of the dodo. Nurglings, however, are poised to be amazing as troops. They can chuck a lot of wounds into an obsec tough 5 man unit.
I expect a mono-patrol of slaanesh (2 keepers and 1 daemonettes) for the aura and then an undivided bat to be the way to go.
The mirror will be uniquely valuable because tri-pointing is gone, leaving daemons one of the only ones able to lock into melee.
The character protection debuff is kind of a shadow buff to daemons whose HQs already often didn't get character protection (greater demons). It will also now be much easier to hide the two better greater demons (KoS and LoC) since they can both have LoS blocked by obscuring, which was a pipe dream for much of 8th.
Points will determine a lot, but I think daemons will be better off, not worse off. Not that they will be good; I very much doubt that, but I do think they will be better now.
I am not so sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. the morale change in 9th ed benefits big blocks of infantry. Morale will not wipe a big squad now. So, that big blob of plague bearers will be so much harder to remove now, because even if you kill off half of the squad, the rest are not going to run from morale. Nurgle daemons seem to be good in 9th ed because 9th ed is about holding midboard objectives and they are very good at doing that.
Nurglings will be really good I feel. -1 to hit when in dense cover (trees particularly), 5++/5+++
Fiends will be good too. Enemy units can't fall back unless they have FLY. With FLY nerfed those units that can fall back can't shoot our fiends off the table (unless a special rule allows them to do so)
Opponents can also spend CP to force a unit to fall back out of combat with our fiends but that unit still isn't doing anything. I think units of 4-6 will be good for tying things up.
Also, expect more Assassins, specially with IG and Sisters. They don't mess up Orders and Sacred Rites nor do they mess with SM Chapter traits. The Callidus is especially nasty. A bolt pistol that does d3 mortals against our LD of 7 on 3d6 and her melee attacks with her phase blade are at S4, ap-3, 2 damage and we don't get our invul save. She can also fall back and then shoot and charge again. Plus with 4++ save and 5 wounds she'll be hard to kill.
And she can be left off the board and placed D6+3" away so a possible 4" "deepstrike" away from something valuable such as a character.
I am not so sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. the morale change in 9th ed benefits big blocks of infantry. Morale will not wipe a big squad now. So, that big blob of plague bearers will be so much harder to remove now, because even if you kill off half of the squad, the rest are not going to run from morale. Nurgle daemons seem to be good in 9th ed because 9th ed is about holding midboard objectives and they are very good at doing that.
I am sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. Points will go up, and blast weapons will do maximum hits on 11+ models. Unit coherency will require the 6+ model unit for every model to be within 2" of two other models, if not they run away, until unit coherency is restored.
I am not so sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. the morale change in 9th ed benefits big blocks of infantry. Morale will not wipe a big squad now. So, that big blob of plague bearers will be so much harder to remove now, because even if you kill off half of the squad, the rest are not going to run from morale. Nurgle daemons seem to be good in 9th ed because 9th ed is about holding midboard objectives and they are very good at doing that.
I am sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. Points will go up, and blast weapons will do maximum hits on 11+ models. Unit coherency will require the 6+ model unit for every model to be within 2" of two other models, if not they run away, until unit coherency is restored.
Eh, I think unit coherency will be one of those things that you will just get use to in the new edition. It will be brutal initially, but once you find something that works for you it will end up being a minor nuisance.
Points will be a major factor for determining if a particular unit is viable. We have no idea yet as to how Chaos Daemons will land.
You have a point about blasts, however the army that can most use them right now is guard. And TBH, Daemon troops severely struggle against IG as it is. A sizable Guardsmen blob produces mass shots/attacks with no AP - which is the bane of our troops. So, I suspect this will mostly be a wash when it comes to the fact that we won't lose as much due to a failed morale test.
Meh, we lose on average far fewer daemons to morale tests now; in fact it probably damn near evens out to how many more we lose to blast.
Not to mention our daemonic troops are more durable than nids at least. We at least have invul saves; PB's have that and FNP.
Last time I checked a hormogaunt or termagant don't have an inv (i think some nid powers can do that but that's psychic and so not reliable).
Nurgle units haven't been hurt all that much really. More benefits from cover (for those of us who didn't play with ITC terrain rules); morale is less scary than before.
We can cut our PB's down to less than 20 and stick them in dense cover (trees) and still get the -1 to be hit with ranged and trees are defensible so +1 to hit in melee if they get charged.
Bloodletters and Daemonettes aren't going to face a whole lot of overwatch if you charge those units with others. Make the opponent choose which ONE unit to fire OW with and burn the CP. Tau can FTGG but Tau are the exception, not the rule.
I think I'm going to play some games against myself this coming weekend, see what I can judge to work and not work.
I like new editions because it forces me to change up my army, come up with new ideas. This edition is no different and I look forward to the challenge/project/experiment.
20 pb's...x3? 60 of them...
face a marine or Ig and in most cases end of turn 2 you have no Pb's on table, we alreday tested some games with 9th ed rules and that is what happen.. marines will play thunderfire cannons, with new rules on terrain IG might play manticores (and anyway 9 mortars take a heavy toll on you Pb's), -1 to hit is nothing, is too easy play around it. Believe me or not but table is what matter not forums. Now that you can escape when surronded and veichles can shoot in CaC well.... poor demonetters and/or bloodletters, maybe they take less overwatch but they are slaughetered anyway, now you cant anymore simple charge a LR and stop it from firing, you cant surrond an unit and survive next opponent phase.
From what I read in that Goonhammer article, the UF bloodthirster went up thirty points. Like, why, in comparison to the others? And I wondered how Skarbrand fared.
ArcaneHorror wrote: From what I read in that Goonhammer article, the UF bloodthirster went up thirty points. Like, why, in comparison to the others? And I wondered how Skarbrand fared.
All the greater demons went up 20 points. The unfettered fury just weirdly and randomly went up 30. Even the other bloodthirsters only went up 20.
For some reason when i first read your post i thought you were talking about big daddy bird from forgeworld.
I have to admit that if games shift to 1500 points, Aetos'Rau'Keres feels really tempting as a one-model-army.
He's never that competitive just by virtue of being a lone model in an objective game, but between 3++, -1 damage and self-healing you're clearly doing it wrong if he dies....
Big daddy bird doen't have -1 damage I don't think. And a single model army WILL die pretty much to anything the opponent brings, no matter what his saves are.
locarno24 wrote: Not by default, but he is a CHARACTER LORD OF CHANGE so can do anything his little cousins can, including being a warlord and being exalted.
Noice. After Magnus being unable to gain cults, I automatically assumed named characters would be excluded from being Exalted.
locarno24 wrote: Not by default, but he is a CHARACTER LORD OF CHANGE so can do anything his little cousins can, including being a warlord and being exalted.
Noice. After Magnus being unable to gain cults, I automatically assumed named characters would be excluded from being Exalted.
They are, all the exaltations specify ‘that is not a named character’
For anyone interested, I did an analysis on my YouTube channel yesterday on how to play Chaos in 9th Edition based on all the new points changes and FAQs:
Virules wrote: For anyone interested, I did an analysis on my YouTube channel yesterday on how to play Chaos in 9th Edition based on all the new points changes and FAQs:
ArcaneHorror wrote: From what I read in that Goonhammer article, the UF bloodthirster went up thirty points. Like, why, in comparison to the others? And I wondered how Skarbrand fared.
All the greater demons went up 20 points. The unfettered fury just weirdly and randomly went up 30. Even the other bloodthirsters only went up 20.
Maybe that's because it's the one that strikes me as the best in terms of flexibility and degrading stats. Still, given how the insensate rage one has always been the most expensive, I would have thought that that would have been the one with the highest price increase. For what it's worth, Skarbrand's price increase seems to be not that bad.
Woooooow an amazing guide to Daemons in 9e competitive play has just dropped, written by Wallace O’Donnell who placed 1st in faction last ITC season. Here's a link to his 45pg PDF, reading it now, it's amazing.
Woooooow an amazing guide to Daemons in 9e competitive play has just dropped, written by Wallace O’Donnell who placed 1st in faction last ITC season. Here's a link to his 45pg PDF, reading it now, it's amazing
Amazing read and good information for someone coming back. Shame he didn't post an example list he will be testing. I suppose that is just greedy
grouchoben wrote: Woooooow an amazing guide to Daemons in 9e competitive play has just dropped, written by Wallace O’Donnell who placed 1st in faction last ITC season. Here's a link to his 45pg PDF, reading it now, it's amazing.
Saw that; it's pretty great! What is this Daemon Monster Mash list that they keep talking about? I assume it's the reason they put all of the GD as A's, although I shudder to think how many you need before they are A's. I'm only rocking two GUOs.
grouchoben wrote: Woooooow an amazing guide to Daemons in 9e competitive play has just dropped, written by Wallace O’Donnell who placed 1st in faction last ITC season. Here's a link to his 45pg PDF, reading it now, it's amazing.
Saw that; it's pretty great! What is this Daemon Monster Mash list that they keep talking about? I assume it's the reason they put all of the GD as A's, although I shudder to think how many you need before they are A's. I'm only rocking two GUOs.
Monster mash is GD spam with 4-6 based on the list you want to run. KoS and LoC are the two best GDs but you can make bloodthirsters and GUOs work as well depending on what you want to run. All GDs are exalted of course.
You take the 4-6 GDs, fill out the rest in troops and basically get to tell your opponent "deal with it if you can"
grouchoben wrote: Woooooow an amazing guide to Daemons in 9e competitive play has just dropped, written by Wallace O’Donnell who placed 1st in faction last ITC season. Here's a link to his 45pg PDF, reading it now, it's amazing.
Saw that; it's pretty great! What is this Daemon Monster Mash list that they keep talking about? I assume it's the reason they put all of the GD as A's, although I shudder to think how many you need before they are A's. I'm only rocking two GUOs.
Monster mash is GD spam with 4-6 based on the list you want to run. KoS and LoC are the two best GDs but you can make bloodthirsters and GUOs work as well depending on what you want to run. All GDs are exalted of course.
You take the 4-6 GDs, fill out the rest in troops and basically get to tell your opponent "deal with it if you can"
I own all those models but I'm new to 40k 9th edition (haven't played since end of 7th) what detachments do you run that list? Batallion + Patrol or double Batallion.
So it depends on if you are trying to run a mono-detachment or undivided. Undivided let's you take smaller detachments cause you can mix and match easier. Mono gives you the loci though so you'll want to cram it in as much as possible so battalion will suit you better.
My current list, posted in the army list section, is a battalion and a patrol.
GD list seems sexy on paper but i'm concerned about giving up easy secondaries - for example both assassinate and abhor the witch against tau being that there is literally not much else to shoot in most of those lists and the game is now all about points.
On the flip side - being that nurglings are now the (secret/not so secret) best troop in the game taking 6 is basically automatic (or summoning) so a batallion led by two GD is looking spicy.
I'm currently looking at two LOC with the standard durability build as basically a base battalion in all my chaos builds so far...
Why summon murglings rather than just bringing them as part of the list? Don;t you have to give up doing anything on your character when you summon? Nurglings can deploy like scouts so you don't need to summon them in, right?
I think units of 5 to 6 Nurglings are going to be great for tying up and closing lanes during deployment.
Blast doesn't affect units of 5 and even more than 5 isn't really scorched that hard by Blast. 5++/5+++ and 4 wounds means they will be hard to shift for most weapons. Obviously multiwound weapons hurt but i'd much rather have my opponents shooting plasma and melta at my Nurglings than at my drones or other similar multi-wound models.
Beasts of Nurgle seem an alright choice for mono-Nurgle.
I'm leaning toward a Nurgle/Tzeentch battalion with a Slaanesh patrol. EGUO, Loc (of Fateweaver), and 2 KoS sound pretty juicy.
just a thought but if you are facing an enemy planning on using the VP generating spell or successfully manifest warp powers for VP the Blue Scribes could heavily if not completely neuter it with their ability (permenantly prevent enemy from casting failed spells) at the very least they could become a very disproportionate distraction carnifex for 90 pts
Trying to make a psi action is not the same as manifesting a psi power. I dont think the blue scribes can syphon that psi action and prevent it for the rest of the game. This would need a FAQ to answer.
Yeah, I agree with p5freak's assessment. That being said, if it does turn out that it's workable, the exalted trait Spell-thief would work better IMO.
The other thing of interest is that abilities like Souls of Iron (deny power on 4+) don't appear to work on Psychic Actions. In addition, abilities that allow a unit to deny like a psyker without being a psyker (quite a few factions have these) can't prevent the actions. So it becomes a considerably more reliable way to get VP when you are against those opponents.
Has anyone done the mathhammer for GD vs eradicators? Assuming eradicators are in an impulsor that gives (roughly) at 31 inch threat range with melta rerolls. I don't think a high level SM player will jam all eradiactors into one transport but in a 'worst case' scenario it wouldn't be impossible to get all 9 eradicators in range of melta with the standard marine rerolls to hit and 1's to wound... Particularly as greater deamon threat range is very short (even 18 inches for LoC) it looks like mathematically against any GD non-GUO at least 2 GD are dying on average even with 3 up invul etc. GUO is about 1 and half and GUO doesn't benefit from obscuring terrain etc...
I guess there are other solutions (summoning in flamers and using 1cp for mortals etc.) but the standard counter of trying to wrap the transport doesn't work really and even then the impulsor adds -2 to the charge, which makes the eradicators themselves more challenging to charge... I'm struggling as I really want to field my GD this edition (love the models) but as I only play opponents who run tournament level competitive WH - even with all our cool exalted buffs i'm wondering if its again time to relegate these to the shelf, at least until deamon codex 2.0 rolls out... Even 'kick back' after they fire one salvo will lead at best to a 1:1 point trade, and that isn't considering the other 1500 points in the SM list that may have varying line of sight but would still need to worry about (aggressors etc.).
Any suggestions? I'm not the best player but i'm having hard time figuring out how to bubble out a 14 inch assault transport (deploys troops after it moves) that then gives infantry keyword models an additional 5 inch move with further 12 (24) inch threat range... Not really trying to paint a hopeless picture for the matchup - might be playable with other unit variants (nurglings etc. sitting on objectives) but does it make any sense to bring GD?
Another thing regarding secondaries that I noticed, just to be on the lookout for:
In order to deny a psychic secondary action, the enemy has to pick a PSYKER unit. So if your opponent has a relic/trait/strat that lets them deny, the enemy unit can't use it on your action since they aren't a PSYKER.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Another thing regarding secondaries that I noticed, just to be on the lookout for:
In order to deny a psychic secondary action, the enemy has to pick a PSYKER unit. So if your opponent has a relic/trait/strat that lets them deny, the enemy unit can't use it on your action since they aren't a PSYKER.
That's a good catch. I think in any non-khorne list we have so many psyker HQs that psychic ritual is a really attractive secondary.
orkswubwub wrote: it looks like mathematically against any GD non-GUO at least 2 GD are dying on average even with 3 up invul etc.
I don't think that's right dude. 9 Eradicators with CM & LT rerolls, shooting a 3++ big bird, outside of half range, are expecting to do around 14.5 damage total, and that's without aura of mutability or the Impossible Robe's single reroll, or a CP reroll. They're probably shooting at another GD instead of course, but I thought I'd point out that the LoC is up to the task of taking this most obnoxious AT on the nose and still living to squark about it.
So, i've got this crusade campaign coming and I was brave (stupid) enough to say that I would play with daemons... I've got no clue were to begin since i'm feeling I will get wiped...
As a house rule, no named carachters are allowed.
I already have some bloodletters, daemonettes, bloodcrushers and fiends lying around so I was thinking something aggro... but I realley would appreciate some insights on how to build a crusade list.
I don't know much about crusade, but in general pure melee, light infantry is in a rough spot in 9th edition since so much of the game now revolves around contesting the midfield. Light infantry melee armies like daemons or GSC tend to get shredded by rapid firing bolters.
Daemons players these days recommend bringing a lot of exalted greater daemons and a lot of nurglings (like 15+). Or consider bringing an allied detachment with actual guns. For example, I recently picked up a superheavy detachment of armiger moiraxes to make a slightly more threatening version of my fluffy Khorne daemons list.
When I get the time to try my new list and my first 9th Ed game with “new” stratagems from engine wars. Only hearing about objectives and I have all ways played a mix of killing and holding so I think I would love this Ed, except for new terrain rules not benefiting us Daemons...
I can’t recommend it yet but for my aggressive list I have 10 bloodchrushers with icon, banner and upgraded too blood banner in DS. Drop them in and use “brass stampede” stratagem for MW and charge a smaller unit, then charge a juicer target behind if your MW wipe the first charge.
For this too work better I have 2 units of havocs CSM for shooting and 20,10,10 cultists. You can use psychic powers too weakens the enemy.
I will also try too fit my beloved DP with Skullreaver relic and LoC exalted for some psychic MW with impossible robe for survival.
Anyone that have tried too use “brass stampede” and is it still active if you wipe the first unit and do MW on the second target? I think not as you activate it when you have made the charge but Spikey bit seems too think it works..
I haven't played it myself but I've seen it played. It works on paper and if your opponent is unprepared it can be devastating. But it has such a huge footprint. This means it's hard to actually DS especially if they have things like infiltrators or similar.
Only saw it once though so maybe other players have had more success.
I know it they have a huge footprint but I kinda like it that way. Then you can charge, kill and then charge another thing while holding an objective and be in the way of you opponent. I guess it’s a double edge sword. With 10 of them it’s 40W to remove and with +1 to invul (4++) they become a pain. In the a**.
I usually use some nurglings to take over midfield before first turn and then use Alpha legions forward operation to move up one or two units but with the nerf to negative modifiers I’m thinking of iron warriors instead.
Personally I think Tzeentch flamers is the best none melee unit in the codex and with 6s for MW even better then keep them alive with 3++ stratagem and/or another juicy target or two.
Will keep on building my list and try to fit all parts all together then post it in army list section if anyone want too see it.
Echoing what Buddha mentioned:
Brass stampede is strong but remember the strat only works if the actual model is within 1 inch of the enemy unit, so if you deepstrike 10 models they all have to be within 1 inch - and there is typically more terrain in 9th and further bloodcrushers aren't infantry so you can run into problems. This also hurts with multicharging because if you fail one charge you fail them all - so if there are a clump of units together you may only want to pick the closest.
Likely if you are using this unit don't get too fixated on trying to max all the mortals and just drop them in where there is the biggest bang for buck. Personally I'm more on the flamer side and trying to get those buffed to 5str with flickering flames to dent gravis armor... Also its nice that some of these units can be summoned whereas bloodcrushers more or less require the banner.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Why summon murglings rather than just bringing them as part of the list? Don;t you have to give up doing anything on your character when you summon? Nurglings can deploy like scouts so you don't need to summon them in, right?
You summon them in so as not to break your locus abilities in a mono detachment that isn't Nurgle.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Why summon murglings rather than just bringing them as part of the list? Don;t you have to give up doing anything on your character when you summon? Nurglings can deploy like scouts so you don't need to summon them in, right?
You summon them in so as not to break your locus abilities in a mono detachment that isn't Nurgle.
This isn't possible. A detachment that isn't Nurgle cannot summon Nurgle daemons, because you have to summon the keyword of your God unless you're undivided, which is basically Belakor... who breaks your detachment locus anyways.
Honestly, who cares enough about locus to pass up on obsec nurglings, who get scout deployment, and don't require an HQ to sit around for a turn doing their incantations?
grouchoben wrote: Honestly, who cares enough about locus to pass up on obsec nurglings, who get scout deployment, and don't require an HQ to sit around for a turn doing their incantations?
popisdead wrote: Did the Slaanesh Warscrolls in CA 2019 change in their PA or now 9th ed?
thanks kindly
Well, yes, then no, then yes, then no, then yes, then no, depending on which version of the FAQ you have.
The final tally for a Keeper of Secrets Datasheet is:
1) Datasheet came in box.
2) Box datasheet FAQ'd.
3) Chapter Approved Datasheet (different than box datasheet).
4) Chapter Approved Datasheet FAQ'd
5) Psychic Awakening Datasheet (changed from CA 2019)
6) PA 9th Edition FAQ Datasheet (goes back to post-FAQ CA2019 version)
...
5) Psychic Awakening Datasheet (changed from CA 2019)
...
Goodness, what a mess. I have CA 2019. I didn't get the PA for Daemons and haven't followed them too closely since. Well thanks kindly I guess i need some updated warscrolls somehow haha.
