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Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/16 13:07:56


Post by: labmouse42


 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Nice work with a fluffy list labmouse! What would you change if you did it again?
Based upon the current meta, people are bringing tools to kill large vehicles. One of my opponents had 3 venerable land raiders, which were pumping out 12 LC shots hitting on a 2+ every turn. My knight lasted 2 turns, then the GUO went up in turn 3. The biggies just can't face firepower of that magnitude. In other matches, my opponents were hitting me with lots of melta shots, D cannon shots, etc....

I've got 7 nurgle heralds, so I'm going to try a nurgle herald spam build. Their range is limited (18" + 5" move + d6" advance) but in a meta full of super heavies dishing out 14-16 mortal wounds a turn (with the DP) could really help. It's kind of like the tzeentch herald spam build, but the nurgle ones are a bit cheaper than tzeentch heralds on disks (clocking in at 70 points each).

I'm going to look into death guard -- or even just chaos CSM period. Honestly I'm tempted on fielding a bunch of CSM or Death Guard to move forward and take objectives and shoot things. Given that the new death guard models are 15 bucks for 3 of them, I'll probably go that route just because they are fairly cheap to get.

Since I'll have some spare points, I'm going to add some poxwalkers. Again, they are the new 'getting started kits' for cheap prices. I have 20 of them now, and I'll paint them up and throw them out for objective campers. They are not as tough, or as killy as plague bearers, but don't ever fail morale tests -- which can be really handy.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/16 13:19:00


Post by: Cephalobeard


Funny enough, I'm of the opinion the numerous characters and screening units is a wonderful counter to low model count super heavies.

They're limited to only attacking the chaff, meanwhile you earn 2-3 Turns of smiting them before they can even hope to hit a worthwhile target.

Nurgle Herald's, Poxwalkers, etc seem plenty viable against them as well.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/16 13:37:20


Post by: ochobits


 labmouse42 wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
I love the nebula-esque effect on the wings of the LoC! Great job!
Agreed. It's really tight.


It really is. I had seen pictures of your army but couldn't appreciate the paint job. Green looks awesome on Tzeentch indeed, I will try to add some details on my upcoming conversions.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 7014/12/09 15:03:33


Post by: Cephalobeard


 ochobits wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
I love the nebula-esque effect on the wings of the LoC! Great job!
Agreed. It's really tight.


It really is. I had seen pictures of your army but couldn't appreciate the paint job. Green looks awesome on Tzeentch indeed, I will try to add some details on my upcoming conversions.


Thanks, guys! I'm excited to get them all finished. Firm believer in finding the army you love, then making it as competitive as possible.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/16 14:24:55


Post by: labmouse42


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Thanks, guys! I'm excited to get them all finished. Firm believer in finding the army you love, then making it as competitive as possible.
This.
Most players I know are always chasing the FotM instead of mastering an army. I used to as well.

There are good reasons to master an army instead of chasing the FotM.
* You will have a better paintjob, as you're not constantly painting new models.
* You will learn the subtle moves of your army
* You learn what your units are good at, and how to deal with specific counters.
* It's cheaper on the pocketbook

You might need to make some minor changes to make your army competitive, but rarely will you need to scrap the entire thing.
Master what you have. Get really, really good at it. Grow your army over time.
Don't chase the FotM.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/16 17:52:24


Post by: anticitizen013


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Thanks, guys! I'm excited to get them all finished. Firm believer in finding the army you love, then making it as competitive as possible.
This.
Most players I know are always chasing the FotM instead of mastering an army. I used to as well.

There are good reasons to master an army instead of chasing the FotM.
* You will have a better paintjob, as you're not constantly painting new models.
* You will learn the subtle moves of your army
* You learn what your units are good at, and how to deal with specific counters.
* It's cheaper on the pocketbook

You might need to make some minor changes to make your army competitive, but rarely will you need to scrap the entire thing.
Master what you have. Get really, really good at it. Grow your army over time.
Don't chase the FotM.

This is great advice. Throughout the years I have collected many different armies but always went back to Chaos. I never really focused on one specific thing, so I have amassed quite a lot of stuff. Now I have been focused on my Khorne army and its going awesome. I really can't wait until I finish my main 1500 pt force so I can work on my themed Daemon Engine build. That list is as follows:

2 Chaos Lords with Jump Packs and Power Axes
3x 3 Nurglings bases (I am using burning skulls in their stead to fit with the theme... DOOM style!)
Kytan Ravager
2 Decimators with Soulburner Petards
2 Blood Slaughterers
2 Maulerfiends

Not the most competitive, but it will certainly be fun! Fast moving and deadly in close combat.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 05:21:32


Post by: rvd1ofakind


@labmouse42 Post more things with good formating. It's my fav thing to read in this thread.

Here's a, rather big, tournament winning list:
3DP
Magnus
3 Heldrakes
Changeling
Herald
Brims/blues

Seems simple enough


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 08:13:42


Post by: blackmage


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@labmouse42 Post more things with good formating. It's my fav thing to read in this thread.

Here's a, rather big, tournament winning list:
3DP
Magnus
3 Heldrakes
Changeling
Herald
Brims/blues

Seems simple enough

which lists he faced?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 09:06:30


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 blackmage wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@labmouse42 Post more things with good formating. It's my fav thing to read in this thread.

Here's a, rather big, tournament winning list:
3DP
Magnus
3 Heldrakes
Changeling
Herald
Brims/blues

Seems simple enough

which lists he faced?

Dark Angels TAC list
Adeptus Custodes Venerable Land Raider girlyman, guard squad
Adeptus Astartes (no list)
Necrons TAC
Conscript, Manticore, Taurox prime, Shadowsword


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 10:32:34


Post by: blackmage


strange he is using helldrakes


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 10:41:52


Post by: rvd1ofakind


5(kinda crushing) wins no losses. Turns out a 1000 pts charging you turn 1 is hard to deal with :p Then another 600 pts charging you turn 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also good for me since I bought 2 of them by accident
Good thing they look really cool for the price and apparently are amazing in-game(as opposed to "good" like I thought)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 11:05:44


Post by: blackmage


btw i saw around ETC lists all demons played whole bunch of brims and lot of not targettable characters 7-8 heralds/Dp a few added Magnus (seems like they dont like have it as "easy target"), then they had 6+ exalted, seems like that is the most viable and solid list and no one played helldrakes.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 13:02:27


Post by: KingGhidra


 blackmage wrote:
strange he is using helldrakes


You don't like them? They seem like a really good option for jumping on the nastiest enemy shooters quickly.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Have you tried Skull Cannons? They look good on paper.


I don't know, that measly -1AP kinda ruins them. What's the theoretical ideal target for a low shot count, high str, low ap, low wd weapon? I know it's one of the few shooters (Khorne) daemons have, but it feels like at that point you're cutting off your nose to spite your face by not taking CSM fire support instead.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've not tried Khorne yet. I only have 6 bloodcrushers and 30 bloodletters. If I had more of a real force I would try it.


As the owner of precisely that number of 'crushers and 'letters, plus Bloodthirster, Soul grinder, Demon Prince, and 2xbloodthrone/skull cannon, I'm trying to work out possibilities for pure Khorne myself. I really want to include Skarbrand because his extra attacks and no fall back rule seems capable of opening up some really nasty shenanigans, but he has his drawbacks and is obviously very expensive too. It's hard not to look at CSM support.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 15:16:40


Post by: ochobits


I'm gonna use cheap troops to screen characters as well. Playing vs Thousand Sons on Thursday, and I know he is taking Magnus, Ahriman, 2 units of Rubricae and 1 unit of Scarab Occult plus 2 sorcerers.

Spamming Smite is not an option on this scenario - he would deny most of them - so I am bringing a Hellbrute with multi-meltas and missile launcher, plus a unit of termies with combi-meltas. I will try to surround my characters with horrors and cultists and shoot the hell out of Magnus before he can access the valuable units.

Any advice about how to deploy and mantain unit coherence avoiding Magnus to kill an entire unit a turn?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 15:29:22


Post by: blackmage


if you play 8-9 characters and 6-7 exalted (plus 12 units of horrors) he cant deny any smite you will cast and anyway you have a nice amount of firepower to cripple him down. 4 Dp 4 heralds 2 slaanesh (for the shynpony of pain power) 2 Tz om chariot and changeling, +7 exalted this is my actual base, pretty solid. With 100+ horrors if you deply anything inside them, seldom Magnus will have a interesting target to charge and 7 exalted gives him troubles, 4 Dp's can seriously damage him as well.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 15:54:03


Post by: ochobits


 blackmage wrote:
if you play 8-9 characters and 6-7 exalted (plus 12 units of horrors) he cant deny any smite you will cast and anyway you have a nice amount of firepower to cripple him down. 4 Dp 4 heralds 2 slaanesh (for the shynpony of pain power) 2 Tz om chariot and changeling, +7 exalted this is my actual base, pretty solid. With 100+ horrors if you deply anything inside them, seldom Magnus will have a interesting target to charge and 7 exalted gives him troubles, 4 Dp's can seriously damage him as well.


That sounds good, but I don't own (yet) that many Exalted or horrors. I must rely on 30 horrors + 20 cultist to surround my characters, the Hellbrute and the termies and to avoid Magnus charge them in combat. I guess that if I don't leave enough space for Magnus' base he can't land between my lines, right? That is gonna be my strategy: let him destroy the cultists and the horrors while I concentrate as much firepower, Smite and flames as I can on him until he dies.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/17 16:39:16


Post by: smegma_crunch


KingGhidra wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
strange he is using helldrakes


You don't like them? They seem like a really good option for jumping on the nastiest enemy shooters quickly.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Have you tried Skull Cannons? They look good on paper.


I don't know, that measly -1AP kinda ruins them. What's the theoretical ideal target for a low shot count, high str, low ap, low wd weapon? I know it's one of the few shooters (Khorne) daemons have, but it feels like at that point you're cutting off your nose to spite your face by not taking CSM fire support instead.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've not tried Khorne yet. I only have 6 bloodcrushers and 30 bloodletters. If I had more of a real force I would try it.


As the owner of precisely that number of 'crushers and 'letters, plus Bloodthirster, Soul grinder, Demon Prince, and 2xbloodthrone/skull cannon, I'm trying to work out possibilities for pure Khorne myself. I really want to include Skarbrand because his extra attacks and no fall back rule seems capable of opening up some really nasty shenanigans, but he has his drawbacks and is obviously very expensive too. It's hard not to look at CSM support.


I think it helps to throw in some blood slaughterer or another couple distraction pieces. I also wouldn't March my bloodletters in but summon them once the opponent has started to get close


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/18 02:37:18


Post by: rvd1ofakind


@blackmage Can you make a good Khorne list with the restriction of "it must have the DAEMON keyword"? So you can take heldrakes, obliterators, etc


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/18 04:18:04


Post by: ZergSmasher


The problem I see with pure Khorne Daemon lists is needing Bloodletters as troops. I'm not convinced that they are very good. If they can make it to melee they will wreck face, but they are very squishy, making it harder to survive to reach combat. Of course, one way around this would be to play a different detachment type that doesn't need troops. I'm also not convinced entirely that Flesh Hounds are bad. They did get a nerf compared to 7th edition, but one thing I've seen a lot of people overlook is the fact that they can attempt to deny a psychic power every turn. I might just run 3 small squads in every list for just that reason. That and their attacks are AP-1, meaning they can be a credible threat to even more stuff than before. Perhaps run a Juggerherald next to them to make them even more deadly.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/18 04:50:17


Post by: rvd1ofakind


I'd accept some help from other gods: like brimstones for example :p


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/18 08:11:16


Post by: blackmage


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
@blackmage Can you make a good Khorne list with the restriction of "it must have the DAEMON keyword"? So you can take heldrakes, obliterators, etc

you could use nurglings/plaguebearers as troop or brims (they are awesome control objectives) as you said, the rest run a whole Korne aggressive list, couple of Dp's couple of maulefriends/helldrakes and i would run flesh hounds and bloodcrushers, the only way to get in Close combat is overload ur opponent make him do some mistakes and slap his face, if you can play a massive assault list you could also try a BT.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/18 12:40:02


Post by: labmouse42


 ZergSmasher wrote:
The problem I see with pure Khorne Daemon lists is needing Bloodletters as troops. I'm not convinced that they are very good. If they can make it to melee they will wreck face, but they are very squishy, making it harder to survive to reach combat. Of course, one way around this would be to play a different detachment type that doesn't need troops. I'm also not convinced entirely that Flesh Hounds are bad. They did get a nerf compared to 7th edition, but one thing I've seen a lot of people overlook is the fact that they can attempt to deny a psychic power every turn. I might just run 3 small squads in every list for just that reason. That and their attacks are AP-1, meaning they can be a credible threat to even more stuff than before. Perhaps run a Juggerherald next to them to make them even more deadly.
You can also start with cultists if you want to stay 'thematic' for khorne.

Another idea is to summon the bloodletters. It does not work until your character is stuck in assault, or if you are close enough to get the charge phase off without needing a movement phase. You can also use a unaligned chaos sorcerer on a bike who can cast warptime on himself to move up then summon. Once you have the 30 bloodletters summoned, with a banner and a command point reroll they have a very good chance of making it into assault.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 0026/02/18 17:42:21


Post by: blackmage


was lookig at nanavati's list there
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Nick-Nanavati-Chaos-Daemons.pdf

wonder why he used 4 bloated drones, maybe something against fliers spam?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/19 05:14:11


Post by: CrownAxe


I think it also has to do with being a great screen for all those exalted flamers


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/19 06:25:20


Post by: blackmage


Well he has 120 brimstone For that too but yes good Point can be


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/19 18:46:00


Post by: labmouse42


Fatey vs Magnus Comparison
This post is a detailed comparison between Fateweaver and Magnus the Red.

Battlefield Role
Both units are designed to give long range support through psychic powers and some strong assault capabilities. In a perfect world, both units would buff equally, but just in slightly different roles.
Magnus is a LoW, where Fateweaver is a HQ. In events where you are not allowed to bring a LoW, Fatey wins by default.
Magnus is 15 more points than Fateweaver, which is a marginal difference at their point costs -- making them nearly identical.

Buffs
Magnus grants the ability to reroll 1s to hit for Thousand Sons units within 9" -- which is a larger bubble than most units. Magnus also lets units reroll 1's for failed invuln saves. Anyone who remembers 7th edition Screamerstars knows how abusive this can get the better the save is. For Magnus, it means that he is making his invuln rolls ~58% of the time.

In comparison, Fatey gives all daemons of Tzeentch a 10 leadership for purposes of Morale tests. This is useful, but not game breaking. It means 3 less brimstone horrors will be lost when then squad of being removed by the handful. If flamers and screamers were more effective, it might be more useful -- but at this current time it's not the best of abilities. It does give some benifit to daemons though, so if you are running all other units as Tzeentch daemons, Fatey gives something out where Magnus only gives to other Thousand Sons.

The area of Magnus' bubble is 254.47" where Fateweavers (and most other buffing characters) is 113.1. That extra 50" in radius means over double the overall coverage of buff effect!! This is why units like The Changling are so good. To make it even better, Magnus comes on large base, further increasing his buff range.
If Fatey is your warlord, he provides 1-3 extra command points. This is better than a poke in the eye.

Mobility
Fatey moves at 12" per turn, degrading down to 6" per turn. In comparison, Magnus moves at 16" and degrades to 12". Magnus is clearly better here, not only because he starts out faster -- but his total degrading profile is only 3/4 of his full profile in speed. Fatey drops to 1/2.
Both units fly so in other respects are the same.

Durability
Fatey at least as a 4++ save now. He comes with 16 wounds as well, making him take a long time to kill. If you are using the old fateweaver model, he's a bit easier to hide than Magnus.
Magnus has a 18 wounds, a 4++ with a reroll of 1s, and a 3+ save on top of that. Hands down, Magnus is more durable.

Psychic Output
Magnus smites for d6. Where most psykers get the bonus smite on a 11 or 12, Magnus gets the bonus smite on a 10+. Magnus starts with a +1 to the roll, so nearly half the of time, Magnus is smiting for 2d6 damage. This is huge, meaning that Magnus will either be doing ~3.5 damage or ~7 damage on each round, compared to the average damage of 2 for a normal psyker.
Magnus also can use Infernal gaze on a target for another 1.5 mortal wounds.
Magnus can also use warptime on himself to dramatically increase his movement speed. He can warptime himself on turn one to move 16", then move another 16" during the movement phase, then assault on turn one. Without bubble wrap or extreme ranges unit is safe from a turn one Magnus charge.

Fateweaver is no slouch in this area either -- though he is not as much of a damage monster as Magnus. His smite only goes to d6 on a roll of a 9+. It does have a range of 36", but should not be used that often. Given his movement, Fatey will usually be fine smiting closer.
Fatey's other powers are nice too. Boon of Change can be used to boost his damage output. He can use Bolt of Change to put another D3 mortal wounds on a target. Treason of Tzeentch is great fun and getting the cast off on a 6+ is hilarious.

Melee Output
Fatey starts off with 5 attacks, STR 8, -3 AP, d6 damage hitting on a 3+. That's not bad at all, and will do a number against most targets.
Magnus hits 35/36 of time, for STR 16, -4 AP and 3 damage. Magnus starts with 7 attacks.
Magnus is the clear winner here. To make it even better, Magnus never degrades past 5 attacks, where fateweaver loses 80% of his combat effectivness with max degraded.

Summary
GW screwed the pooch on this one. Magnus is clearly better than Fateweaver in nearly every comparison.
The level is 'better' only increases with 1k sons nearby -- but even if just looking for a general beatstick, Magnus is off the charts good. Magnus is like combining a LoC and a Bloothirster of Insensate Rage into one package!
There are times you will want to take Fateweaver instead.....for example, if you are playing a tourney that only allows a patrol to be brought so no LoW allowed. That's about it......in every other case you will want to take Magnus.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/19 19:04:15


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Good summary.
Magnus actually starts with a +2 to cast.

I feel like the bonus command points and long range smite should give fatey some utility, but he should still be a lot less points to be comparable.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/19 23:16:09


Post by: Cephalobeard


I have a Kairos and 2 LoC. I don't see myself using them at all. Their points are absolutely bonkers for just how little they do. I can do about the same damage as 1 LoC for 2 Exalted Flamers, and spend a third the points, nearly.

I can only hope they'll be fixing them when our codex comes, because until then Magnus will reign supreme, if you bother using a big guy.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 05:01:10


Post by: rvd1ofakind


I'd like a comparison between a LoC, Fateweaver and a DP personally. I knew all along that comparing Magnus and Fateweaver was like comparing crap to gold.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 05:22:45


Post by: Arachnofiend


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'd like a comparison between a LoC, Fateweaver and a DP personally. I knew all along that comparing Magnus and Fateweaver was like comparing crap to gold.


A Daemon Prince is half the wounds and half the cost. But comparing two Daemon Princes to a Lord of Change... Well, I think the Princes are the obvious answer.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 05:56:19


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Well when you compare stuff you take points into consideration


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guys, help me with my shopping cart. Atm it's these categories:

I will 100% buy:
Changeling (so I can stop using herald and calling it a changeling)

90%
4x Seekers (So I can finish my slaanesh army)

69%
Nurgle start collecting(already have 1)
10 plaguebearers

50%
Khorne start collecting (only have 20 bloodletters, BT, 15 hounds, Karanak and Herald on Juggernaut atm)
A pack of Bloodcrushers (to have 9 total with the starter pack)
Chaos spawn (since it seems they're shoehorned in too hard to ignore them)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 08:05:30


Post by: KingGhidra


 labmouse42 wrote:

Another idea is to summon the bloodletters. It does not work until your character is stuck in assault, or if you are close enough to get the charge phase off without needing a movement phase. You can also use a unaligned chaos sorcerer on a bike who can cast warptime on himself to move up then summon. Once you have the 30 bloodletters summoned, with a banner and a command point reroll they have a very good chance of making it into assault.


That summon is a 15+ roll on 3d6 though. Which is like 8-9% chance.
Even 20 Bloodletters is 50/50.

So you either have to be patient, lucky, or summon 10 letters at a time (with multiple characters maybe).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 15:52:49


Post by: blackmage


i have two different list i m thinking about for a tournament sunday they are similar

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Thousand Sons)
Lord of War
Magnus the Red

Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons)
HQ
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings
Malefic talon
Tzeentch

Herald of Tzeentch
Staff of Change,
Herald of Tzeentch
Staff of Change

Troops
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Elites
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer

Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons)
HQ
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings
Malefic talon
Tzeentch

Herald of Slaanesh
Symphony of Pain
The Changeling

Troops
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors
Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Elites
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer

the other one

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Nurgle: Virulent Blessing

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Boon of Change

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Boon of Change

Daemon Prince with Wings (CSM): Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Prescience


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Herald of Tzeentch: Bolt of Change, Staff of Change, Treason of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch: Bolt of Change, Boon of Change, Staff of Change

+ Troops +

Horrors: Blue Horror, 19x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

+ Elites +

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

Exalted Flamer

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings: Malefic talon
. Slaanesh: Symphony of Pain

The Changeling: Bolt of Change

+ Troops +

Horrors: Blue Horror, 19x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

Hellforged Rapier Battery
. Hellforged Rapier and crew: 2x Chaos Space Marine Crew, Quad heavy bolter
. Hellforged Rapier and crew: 2x Chaos Space Marine Crew, Quad heavy bolter


what better in your opinion tysm


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 16:35:42


Post by: Cephalobeard


Top one all day. Why the Slaanesh herald, though?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 16:44:28


Post by: jy2


For the Slaanesh psychic powers. Just something different to cast, and they're not too shabby to boot.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 16:48:51


Post by: Cephalobeard


Certainly. I'm actually a pretty big fan of Slaanesh heralds on Steeds. Wonderfully cheap, and incredibly fast.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 16:58:02


Post by: blackmage


yes i have one more spell to cast and it is great with -1 to hit and if needed he can add some light CaC. The only thing make me think about 1st list is Magnus, all alone there and easily targettable.... btw why you consider the 1st list better than 2nd one, just curios ty.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 19:40:42


Post by: fallinq


What's the general consensus on Daemonettes and Seekers? It seems like being able to assault from deep strike in 8th edition would make them fairly nasty, but nobody seems keen on putting them in their lists here...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 19:49:32


Post by: Cephalobeard


Well, how are you implying they deep strike? Daemons lost that ability naturally, unless you mean from summoning, in which case they start 9"+ Away, and then have to charge.

Seekers in particular have a very fast movement, can advance and assault, so it's possible to get t1 charges off of that alone, deployment depending.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 19:53:31


Post by: fallinq


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, how are you implying they deep strike? Daemons lost that ability naturally, unless you mean from summoning, in which case they start 9"+ Away, and then have to charge.

Seekers in particular have a very fast movement, can advance and assault, so it's possible to get t1 charges off of that alone, deployment depending.


Ah. That's right. Do they still get to reroll their charge like in previous editions? I don't have a book handy here.

So is the general consensus that they're still pretty good then?



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 19:59:31


Post by: jy2


 fallinq wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, how are you implying they deep strike? Daemons lost that ability naturally, unless you mean from summoning, in which case they start 9"+ Away, and then have to charge.

Seekers in particular have a very fast movement, can advance and assault, so it's possible to get t1 charges off of that alone, deployment depending.


Ah. That's right. Do they still get to reroll their charge like in previous editions? I don't have a book handy here.

So is the general consensus that they're still pretty good then?


No more re-rolls.

However, taking an Instrument (or was it Icon?) gives them +1" to both their Advance and their charge. Since they can both advance and charge after advancing, that's +2" to their movement. So that's 14" +2" +D6" + 2D6" or a threat range of 19"-34".

Just keep in mind that a good general with use screening tactics with fodder units to absorb the charge and then finish off your seekers afterwards.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/20 20:05:45


Post by: Cephalobeard


The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.

Slaanesh has some potential to be quite potent and fast, but I feel it will depend strongly on a slaanesh release and codex. They need more units like fiends that lock you in combat with them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 03:14:18


Post by: luke1705


 Cephalobeard wrote:
The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.



ESPECIALLY if you cast the attacking twice power on her. Goodness


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 11:57:57


Post by: labmouse42


KingGhidra wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:

Another idea is to summon the bloodletters. It does not work until your character is stuck in assault, or if you are close enough to get the charge phase off without needing a movement phase. You can also use a unaligned chaos sorcerer on a bike who can cast warptime on himself to move up then summon. Once you have the 30 bloodletters summoned, with a banner and a command point reroll they have a very good chance of making it into assault.


That summon is a 15+ roll on 3d6 though. Which is like 8-9% chance.
Even 20 Bloodletters is 50/50.

So you either have to be patient, lucky, or summon 10 letters at a time (with multiple characters maybe).
You are correct. I forgot that the summon cost for 'letters was so high.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Certainly. I'm actually a pretty big fan of Slaanesh heralds on Steeds. Wonderfully cheap, and incredibly fast.
They are also pretty killy too for the cost.
Heralds on Seeker Chariots are nice too, as they clock in at under 10 wounds and are characters with a huge aura due to the chariot base.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 12:08:33


Post by: Cephalobeard


Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 12:14:11


Post by: labmouse42


 Cephalobeard wrote:
The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.

Slaanesh has some potential to be quite potent and fast, but I feel it will depend strongly on a slaanesh release and codex. They need more units like fiends that lock you in combat with them.
The book KoS is crazy good too.

At a 12" move, it's going to be making a turn 2 charge -- as you can assume it will advance on turn one.
She has 6 attacks that are STR 8, -3 AP, 3 DMG hitting on a 2+. As an extra it lowers the 'to hit' form models hit with the weapon -- which is great on something like a knight. It will carve a rhino right up.
She has another D3 attacks tat are STR 7 with -2 rend and 3 dmg (going up to -4 rend on a 'to wound' roll of a 6)
She can cast 2 psychic powers a turn. The slaanesh powers are extremely good. 'Psychic Scream', 'Extra Fight Phase', and -1 to hit (stacking with Witstealer sword)
If she has a herald nearby, the STR of her attacks go up to a 9/8, making her extremely dangerous to vehicles.

Insult to injury is that the GW model is extremely small, close to the size of a primaris space marine. Unlike the bloodthirsters or KoS, this model can hide behind terrain while it advances.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.
You can always go to your local toy store and look for monsters to make your own.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 12:21:56


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.


The Mutalith Vortex Beast from Fantasy works well.

Unfortunately it's now Direct Only.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 12:22:19


Post by: Cephalobeard


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
The FW Keepers of Secrets isn't too shabby, either. I've considered making a list using him/her.

Slaanesh has some potential to be quite potent and fast, but I feel it will depend strongly on a slaanesh release and codex. They need more units like fiends that lock you in combat with them.
The book KoS is crazy good too.

At a 12" move, it's going to be making a turn 2 charge -- as you can assume it will advance on turn one.
She has 6 attacks that are STR 8, -3 AP, 3 DMG hitting on a 2+. As an extra it lowers the 'to hit' form models hit with the weapon -- which is great on something like a knight. It will carve a rhino right up.
She has another D3 attacks tat are STR 7 with -2 rend and 3 dmg (going up to -4 rend on a 'to wound' roll of a 6)
She can cast 2 psychic powers a turn. The slaanesh powers are extremely good. 'Psychic Scream', 'Extra Fight Phase', and -1 to hit (stacking with Witstealer sword)
If she has a herald nearby, the STR of her attacks go up to a 9/8, making her extremely dangerous to vehicles.

Insult to injury is that the GW model is extremely small, close to the size of a primaris space marine. Unlike the bloodthirsters or KoS, this model can hide behind terrain while it advances.



Slaanesh is most definitely in a good place right now. If I wasn't almost positive they'll be receiving a further update, I would be investing in them. Especially now that they have a Start Collecting! box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.


The Mutalith Vortex Beast from Fantasy works well.

Unfortunately it's now Direct Only.


Oh, absolutely. I'm on the email list for when they're available again.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 15:14:37


Post by: Asura Varuna


Are Slannesh actually in a good place though?

Daemonettes are killy but very fragile and lack delivery options.
Seekers squishy and their damage is actually quite poor for their cost (especially compared to their damage the previous edition, considering their mount attacks are separated).
Fiends are one of the worst units in the army because of their cost and fragility.
Seeker chariots are decent, but definitely better as a mount for a herald.
Helflayers are pretty bad too.

That leaves herald, exalted chariots and the KoS. They're all pretty strong but definitely nothing to write home about without a way to effect a turn 1 charge or mitigate shooting in a meaningful way.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 15:17:53


Post by: whembly


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Agreed.

The only unit i'm banking on besides Heralds and Exalted Flamers after the inevitable changing/nerfing of horrors is Gigantic Chaos Spawn. However, it seems difficult to find a suitable "counts as" for that model, as the FW version is garbage. I'd be willing to bet they are easily one of the better single models Daemons have access to, especially at 75pts a pop.

I'm partial to FW's Collossal Squig to 'count as' a Giant Spawn:


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/21 15:58:55


Post by: Cephalobeard


I mean, you certainly could! Haha.

Giant Spawn are very strong, their only downside seems to be finding an appropriate model for them so you can actually field enough of them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/22 00:39:31


Post by: anticitizen013


I think Fiends of Slaanesh can be used to great effect. You straight up can't leave combat with them, so have a couple single models of them along with some other high priority targets could throw some wrenches in the plans of a primarily shooting army. That said, if you're facing something like Orks they won't be as effective.

And I agree with the Giant Chaos Spawn. Mutalith is really the only cool option without going out of the range or stretching for a 'counts as'.

Speaking of 'counts as' models, I am not a fan of the Daemon Prince models (save for Belakor & other FW options), so I've taken to using the Morghasts from the Undead range. They are the perfect size and look super neat. Throw on a couple of markings, a good colour scheme, and you're set. Once mine are done I'll put some pics up but at this rate, that won't be as soon as I like (damn newborns!).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/22 01:29:14


Post by: Cephalobeard


Ogroid shamans with vargheist wings are also perfect.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/22 18:09:38


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Mathammered Khorne Daemons. Thoughts:

Bloodletters are disgustingly strong in melee. Because of +1 attack on charge/getting charged they double in power as they were balanced for 1 attack points wise. Also they really get better with the Herald, DP and 20+/Skulltaker buffs. Up to 80% better.

Bloodcrushers are actually not as good pure damage wise. Letters are 30% to 100% better due to how effective the buffs are on them.

Flesh hounds are worse than Crushers but are faster so they might have a niche?

Skull Cannon is TERRIBLE. Like god awful.

Herald variation on throne is balanced 100% with the Herald on foot math hammer wise on damage. So Throne is just better due to bonus stats and abilities. But Jugger version has the best damage and is faster.

Wrath of Khorne is the obviously best BT.

DPs still claws all the way.

Skarbrand has to be a lot better than the other BTs due to increased price and reduced mobility. He's not... Although Bloodletters + Skarbrand is just a delete button.

I hope I didn't make any mistakes in it the hammering


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 08:02:41


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Nurgle mathammer:

Great Unclean one is better than BTs damage per points wise. AND not counting him being a psyker. He's preeeetty good...

Epidemius and herald are only to be taken for their buffs

Nurglings become really good with a herald next to them. Which makes their infiltrate ability counterproductive.

Plague drones are worse than plaguebearers but obviously they're a lot faster so they can pick out the multi-wound targets.

Beast of nurgle is bad. But everyone knew that already.

Scabby needs to target large multiwound models to shine. If he doesn't, he might seem underwhelming. Still better than Angy since he has the -1 to hit in melee buff.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 08:15:42


Post by: BlaxicanX


I played a Tzeentch-Slaanesh army in 6th edition and mono-Slaanesh in 7th, but I'm not too keen on them this edition. As far as I can tell they're basically just a shittier Genestealer Cult. Their units are all functionally the same which results in their playstyle and strategy being pretty binary. "Run across the board, either make it into combat and sweep stuff or get shot to pieces." There's very little middle ground, and a savvy player who knows how to bubblewrap and speed-bump fast assault units will bog down your units more often then not and then shoot them off the board.

We have some nice stuff in the improved KoS, Steed Heralds and chariot-heralds but, losing invisibility gutted us pretty hard as it was our only way to mitigate our poor durability. We can't hide in combat anymore so every unit you have is going to have a life expectancy of a few turns. If you can't table the enemy by then it's already over.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 15:56:40


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Slaanesh mathammer:

Zarakynel has really bad damage per point unless she's targeting high invul targets like Girlyman. She is the hard hitter of Slaanesh though and has great mobility and survivability. Craps on terminators and storm shields. The bad damage can be atributed to the MAYBE typo of her claw weapon. It should have "bonus D3 attacks" on it or else it won't be used at all.

Keeper of secrets - Worse than GUO, better than BT

Herald: On exalted chariot(lashes)>On exalted chariot(claws)>On chariot(claws)>On steed>On chariot(lashes)>On foot. Lashes are especially good because the main weakness of exalted is getting weakened and the lashes aren't affected.

Masque is average.

Daemonettes are great.

Fiends are subpar so only use for the abilities.

Seekers are almost as good as Daemonettes along with having much better speed.

Helflayers do good damage but are really really really squishy. Not recommended.

Seeker chariot is good but exalted chariot is amazing. Once again, biggest weakness = getting weakened. On the last stage especially it becomes bad. Still the first stage is about 40% better than regular chariot while second is 10% worse (not exact % :p)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh boy buffs, Both heralds on chariots got even better since they got free lashes. No longer a choice


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 17:59:46


Post by: blackmage


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Slaanesh mathammer:

Zarakynel has really bad damage per point unless she's targeting high invul targets like Girlyman. She is the hard hitter of Slaanesh though and has great mobility and survivability. Craps on terminators and storm shields. The bad damage can be atributed to the MAYBE typo of her claw weapon. It should have "bonus D3 attacks" on it or else it won't be used at all.

Keeper of secrets - Worse than GUO, better than BT

Herald: On exalted chariot(lashes)>On exalted chariot(claws)>On chariot(claws)>On steed>On chariot(lashes)>On foot. Lashes are especially good because the main weakness of exalted is getting weakened and the lashes aren't affected.

Masque is average.

Daemonettes are great.

Fiends are subpar so only use for the abilities.

Seekers are almost as good as Daemonettes along with having much better speed.

Helflayers do good damage but are really really really squishy. Not recommended.

Seeker chariot is good but exalted chariot is amazing. Once again, biggest weakness = getting weakened. On the last stage especially it becomes bad. Still the first stage is about 40% better than regular chariot while second is 10% worse (not exact % :p)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh boy buffs, Both heralds on chariots got even better since they got free lashes. No longer a choice

heralds on exalted chariots are targettable so no good at all they are too weak to get large amount of fire, so a normal chariot is better, seekers has too small damage output, i dont count ever the attacks from the "horse" just str 4 and no ap.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 18:25:36


Post by: rvd1ofakind


This was pure damage output. Seekers do almost the same damage as daemonettes, what do you mean you don't count those attacks? You do know that there's almost no difference between the claws a and a close combat weapon damage wise? -1 AP isn't at all anything to boast about and the -4 ap on 6s almost doesn't impact the calculations(I included it in the calculation before you ask)

If we were to take into account the targetable, not targetable, the normal chariot is obviously better


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 18:38:48


Post by: blackmage


mounts deliver ap 0 hits, so their amount of damage is low, anyone can save against it, demonettes have always at least -1,demonette has more punch always, not counting 20+ demonettes gets plus 1 attack/model.
If we were to take into account the targetable, not targetable, the normal chariot is obviously better

well in 8th edition be not targettable is huge,anythjng die easily so if you can hide and not be shoot you have always the upper hand.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 18:55:04


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 blackmage wrote:
mounts deliver ap 0 hits, so their amount of damage is low, anyone can save against it, demonettes have always at least -1,demonette has more punch always, not counting 20+ demonettes gets plus 1 attack/model.
If we were to take into account the targetable, not targetable, the normal chariot is obviously better

well in 8th edition be not targettable is huge,anythjng die easily so if you can hide and not be shoot you have always the upper hand.


So you literally said "I did no calculations but it looks bad". The tongues do more damage than the claws to T3S6 and T4I5 (daemons, genestealers) models without herald buff which is what they will attack - the screen unit. And even with the buff the damage is about 60-40 between claws and tongues.

And ofc the targetable thing is a HUGE deal. My post was only about damage (apart from helflayer where I added its durability)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 22:27:48


Post by: blackmage


demons and genestealer, or everyone not having a save 3+ or better, just die quick against demonettes thanks to huge number of attacks. I dont want argue with u, but mathammer is pointless, play and see is the better school. sorry for the bother.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 22:50:11


Post by: Rydria


Zerakynyl does splash damage on +4s did you add this into your calculations ?

Edit: I've been having horrible luck with seekers due to there huge base size, and I've been having trouble having a herald keep up with them due to there incredible speed honestly been considering dropping them, but i love the models so much I don't want to give up on them yet, I think my big problem is i've been using them in too small a squad size.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 23:01:01


Post by: blackmage


and I've been having trouble having a herald keep up with them due to there incredible speed

herald on steed has same speed i dont see the problem


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/23 23:27:31


Post by: Rydria


 blackmage wrote:
and I've been having trouble having a herald keep up with them due to there incredible speed

herald on steed has same speed i dont see the problem
If she rolls poorly for her advance which has happened allot for me, she is rarely within 6 inches of the seekers after they have completed a first turn charge, but this is my bad since i need to get used to deploying her further forward but not too forward so she gets sniped.

I have been considering trying an all mounted slaanesh force, since I have 6 seeker chariots, 40 seekers and a couple of heralds on steeds, I also plan on getting a start collecting box soon so i can build an exalted chariot (one of the few slaanesh models I don't have)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 01:03:18


Post by: blackmage


well 1st roll for her advance then for seekers so you can move them properly leaving behind a bit 1 model to keep whole unit inside 6" bubble if needed, is not that hard.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 02:36:13


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 Rydria wrote:
Zerakynyl does splash damage on +4s did you add this into your calculations ?


Yes I did. She does better damage on 1 wound units >_>
The problem is that KoS has 6+D3 attacks while Zarakynel has only 6.
Like I said, she's only a great unit if you fight high invul save targets like girlyman.

@blackmage if you say play is better than mathammer, I can only accept that if you've played a mono slaanesh army 20+ times in 8th to avoid the variance
A guy on fb has played that much and he told me that he uses more seekers than daemonettes. And the calculations say that the seekers are barelly worse and have better stats everywhere else. Due to base size I doubt I'll run more than a unit of 20+instrument.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 02:05:12


Post by: Rydria


My big problem with regular keeper of secrets, is there lack of durability, they are less durable than a rhino vs everything that is ap -2 or worse, and equally durable vs ap-3 and better vs ap-4+.

My big worry with them is that they are easy to kill, while Zerak has that magic toughness 8 which makes her harder to wound with common weapons i've had horrible thoughts of my keeper being shredded by bolter shots.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 04:46:27


Post by: drakerocket


So...out of curiosity, why do you want the herald on exalted seeker to not be targeted? As compared to say, 15 daemonettes (it's point value) it's t5 12 wounds 4+/5++ vs t3 15 wounds 5++. Looks a bit tougher to me, particularly against the very common str 4 shooting world.

I mean, I get we don't love being shot at, but *something* has to be shot at. Exalted seeker heralds actually don't seem horrible by the standards of slaanesh.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 04:58:45


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 Rydria wrote:
My big problem with regular keeper of secrets, is there lack of durability, they are less durable than a rhino vs everything that is ap -2 or worse, and equally durable vs ap-3 and better vs ap-4+.

My big worry with them is that they are easy to kill, while Zerak has that magic toughness 8 which makes her harder to wound with common weapons i've had horrible thoughts of my keeper being shredded by bolter shots.


The problem is that 2 KoS are almost 2x better damage wise than 1 Zerak and cost less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tzeentch mathammer:

Most units are really really bad. It's the few broken units that carry the army.

Heralds - all variations really bad in melee. Why take them over a slaanesh herald? Their main defence isn't 4+ or 1- from changeling. It's the brimstones around them. And all they do is smite spam anyway, which other heralds/DPs do just as well because Tzeentch has no psyker bonus for some reason. I don't think I'll ever take a Tzeentch herald.

Kairos - reaaaally bad.

Lord of change - sword is the second clearest choice about this unit. The clearest choice about the unit is - don't ever take it. It's awful.

Blue Scribes - worst unit in melee per points. All he has going for him is the psyker shananigans

Pink Horrors - worst troops. Power - average

Blue Horrors - bad. Only good to take 1 with brimstones

Brimstones - broken. Can't do much damage but the durable body for 2 points is just disgusting.

Exalted flamer - Ok on paper. With the character keyword and brimstone around it - broken

Flamers - REALLY good.

Screamers - really subpar and vulnerable.

Burning chariot - Take flamers/ex flamers instead. But if you already have enough of them and hate spam(like me), it's not a bad choice

Big bird - Deletes a superheavy a turn. Almost unkillable.

Magnus - the dude that can always pick the best targets. The dude that can take on half of you opponents army and win.

Changeling - completelly broken

So when you make a Tzeentch army you go: Changeling, Magnus, Brimstone spam, Flamers/Exflamers, maybe big bird(but might be overkill with Magnus), DPs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a link to the Mathammer
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8eV9EWFNsd19NMHM
It's on the weapons sheet.
Feel free to find errors if any :p


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 13:13:41


Post by: labmouse42


 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Flamers - REALLY good.
The other day I ran 3 units of 9 flamers each. They are as good as they appear on paper.

In one round of shooting, I rolled my dice, looked up and said "Ok, that's 37 hits". He was in shock.
"Whats the STR and AP on that?" he asked me.
"STR 4 and -1 AP"
"How many hits?"
"37"
"That's from all the squads?"
"No...just these 9"

The average number of hits is 31.5. The damage output they put out is crazy.
The fact that they are pistols is almost insult to injury.
The big weakness is they are fairly vulnerable to attack. T4, 4++ 2 wounds just is not all that.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 15:25:09


Post by: Cephalobeard


I have not used Magnus in a SINGLE Tzeentch list. He's an obvious target and gets singled out when the rest of your army is characters and horrors.

I will agree with the order is Changeling -> Horrors -> Exalted Flamers, but I do think Tzeentch Heralds have a place. For 83pts you get a foot herald with a 24 Smite. You have a 6" Move, d6 Advance, and 24" Smite giving you lots of room to clear ground.

I will note I've stopped taking them entirely, and have been subbing in a different unit, but I do still believe they're good. I would be completely on board with them getting a bonus to casting.

To be completely honest, if the codex or eventual FAQ hits Horrors too hard, or doesn't fix pinks, I'm simply going to run Renegades instead.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 16:33:39


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Well ofc he gets singled out. He's amazing. He can kill a knight in 1 turn very reliably (like 99%). That's a 415 killing a 600+ unit without breaking a sweat. And Knights are placing highly in tournaments so they are definitelly good.
Magnus will only make every list better.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 18:03:56


Post by: blackmage


Magnus is great, but when opponent start 1st he has hard times, for example the main list right now with 5 SR.... they can kill him in 1 turn, happened yesterday also with -1 from changeling, he had 5 SR and AM battalion, tons of fire and Magnus poof....


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 0030/07/24 18:10:58


Post by: Cephalobeard


Exactly. In a world where Daemons have many, many drops, if your event is running RAW and you are NOT going first, Magnus is more often than not simply a 415pt Mulligan that saves the rest of your things a turn of shooting as he's deleted.

He's great. He just dies, almost instantly, when the most Daemon targets aren't able to be targeted besides him.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 18:13:25


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 blackmage wrote:
Magnus is great, but when opponent start 1st he has hard times, for example the main list right now with 5 SR.... they can kill him in 1 turn, happened yesterday also with -1 from changeling, he had 5 SR and AM battalion, tons of fire and Magnus poof....


Uh, SR spam is now deader than dead. If you ever have only Flyer units remaining you count as tabled per the new FAQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Exactly. In a world where Daemons have many, many drops, if your event is running RAW and you are NOT going first, Magnus is more often than not simply a 415pt Mulligan that saves the rest of your things a turn of shooting as he's deleted.

He's great. He just dies, almost instantly, when the most Daemon targets aren't able to be targeted besides him.


The dude has an insane threat range. 32'' + charge. Just place him out of range. Also, if they are running RAW first turn rule, I'd take Magnus, knight, 3rd superheavy + brimstones and cheese until they change it.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 18:27:35


Post by: blackmage


Uh, SR spam is now deader than dead. If you ever have only Flyer units remaining you count as tabled per the new FAQ

it is not you can just play 1 less SR and play 120 conscripts commisar and commander at least, is anyhting but dead, now just some lists has a chance against it trying to remove ground units, but it's not so simple when you have 120-150 models holding the ground, you should play some more warhammer40k

The dude has an insane threat range. 32'' + charge. Just place him out of range. Also, if they are running RAW first turn rule, I'd take Magnus, knight, 3rd superheavy + brimstones and cheese until they change it.


easy to say hard to do, many heavy weapons has long range or are mobile enough to get in range 1st turn (SR move wherever they want IK heavy weapons has 48"/84" inches range) , deep striking units can put you in troubles... etc...etc....


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 18:59:48


Post by: Cephalobeard


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
Magnus is great, but when opponent start 1st he has hard times, for example the main list right now with 5 SR.... they can kill him in 1 turn, happened yesterday also with -1 from changeling, he had 5 SR and AM battalion, tons of fire and Magnus poof....


Uh, SR spam is now deader than dead. If you ever have only Flyer units remaining you count as tabled per the new FAQ


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Exactly. In a world where Daemons have many, many drops, if your event is running RAW and you are NOT going first, Magnus is more often than not simply a 415pt Mulligan that saves the rest of your things a turn of shooting as he's deleted.

He's great. He just dies, almost instantly, when the most Daemon targets aren't able to be targeted besides him.


The dude has an insane threat range. 32'' + charge. Just place him out of range. Also, if they are running RAW first turn rule, I'd take Magnus, knight, 3rd superheavy + brimstones and cheese until they change it.


Have you... played with him?

Yes, he's very good, but he genuinely just instantly dies if he's your only large threat. I don't know how else to word this. In many instances, especially if you're going second, there isn't a "Just place him out of range".

And in your example of "I'd just take Magnus, Knight+(Probably another Knight),", I'd be thrilled to play against that list, because small character smiting things and tons of exalted flamers would chew it apart.

Again, MAGNUS IS GOOD, he's just not an absolutely auto include like Changeling/Horrors.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 19:14:18


Post by: Arachnofiend


For what it's worth, I've had largely the same experience with Magnus in my own Thousand Sons lists. If you go first he deletes something big (unless "something big" is well screened), but otherwise he just gets focus fired down and dies. I just run Ahriman and 415 points of smaller yet still potent threats now.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 19:14:44


Post by: blackmage


Magnus+3 Ik struggles a lot against massive smite spam/tons of brimstone/exalted, he can just shoot/charge brimstones kill them then be killed by smites+exalted/Dp countercharge. But guess you already know it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote:
For what it's worth, I've had largely the same experience with Magnus in my own Thousand Sons lists. If you go first he deletes something big (unless "something big" is well screened), but otherwise he just gets focus fired down and dies. I just run Ahriman and 415 points of smaller yet still potent threats now.

Magnus is great when you can offer more big and dangerous targets, like 2-3 IK's or lot of DP's or stuff like that, i stopped play it in my Tz demon list just cause it gives easily first blood and you practically play with 415 pts less.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 19:39:57


Post by: Arachnofiend


I think running him alongside 2 Heldrakes is the best way to do it; they give him additional dangerous targets for shots to be tossed into and offer the best turn 1 charge assault support.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 19:56:45


Post by: blackmage


Arachnofiend wrote:
I think running him alongside 2 Heldrakes is the best way to do it; they give him additional dangerous targets for shots to be tossed into and offer the best turn 1 charge assault support.

helldrakes are fine but... they aren't so dangerous so usually Magnus is shooted down anyway 1st, better get drakes than that killing machine called Magnus.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 20:15:46


Post by: Youn


Quick question, in Matched play how much of your army may be saved as Demonic Summoning Reserves?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/24 20:22:25


Post by: Cephalobeard


However much as you set aside.

You could do a Patrol and have 1 Sorcerer and 1 10man Cultist squad and reserve 1900 points if you wanted.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 0009/05/02 02:31:09


Post by: whembly


In order for Magnus to excel, he really can't be the only "big dude" in the list.

Maggie+heldrakes
Maggie+Big Bird
(my fav) Maggie + Fireraptor.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/25 02:28:32


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Have I played with Magnus? Yes I have. And every time I did he lived for at least 2 turns and killed at least 800 pts. One time he killed 400 pts turn 1, then got targeted by about 1300 pts of CSM and knight next turn AND charged. Lost 2 wounds xD
That was a fun game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how does your T7, 3+/4++ re-roll 1s, 6+ feel no pain, -1 to hit dude you can place 40'' away from the action die turn 1? Do you play against las canon spam only

I mean, there are reports coming in from people that their meta is "Magnus"


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/10/15 02:39:15


Post by: hellpato


I don't know if that been bring inside the daemon tactics, but any thought about Uraka and Samus. I look those two?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/25 14:36:56


Post by: andysonic1


 hellpato wrote:
I don't know if that been bring inside the daemon tactics, but any thought about Uraka and Samus. I look those two?
Uraka seems pretty solid honestly, the only downside to him is his slow movement. I'm considering using him instead of a Helbrute even though the Helbrute is statswise better it's not a character. Samus seems kinda meh, like I can see him being useful in Word Bearer lists who want to summon a lot.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/25 15:45:29


Post by: tbonebakker


deleted post, meant to post in the chaos tactical thread.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/25 23:27:17


Post by: ochobits


I also played against a TS army with Magnus and he got 1 wound left on turn 2. You can let him charge - and surely destroy - horrors or cultits and then focus your entire firepower and smite on him. Nobody is going to let Magnus charge valuable units that can easily be surrounded by cheap troops.

Don't take me wrong, I love him, but he has a giant target on his ass. I would rather go with Be'Lakor or a couple of DP's instead.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 15:59:17


Post by: knas


Longtime builder, first time player here.

I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.

So far I've only played a handful of games and my current strategy has been to try to rush the enemy during round 1, via foot or summoning, but if I don't make it round 1 I end up getting blasted to pieces by the enemy. Any strategies for dealing with higher mobility / firepower armies like Eldar & Tau would be appreciated!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 16:47:48


Post by: Cephalobeard


Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 17:07:36


Post by: Galef


Gents, I am on the verge of a difficult decision.
As an undivided player since I started playing Daemons many years ago, I have amassed a small collection of all 4 flavors of Daemon, including a Greater Daemon, lesser daemons and a few "specialty" deamons from each god.

It sadly doesn't look like I'll be using anything but Tzeentch with a smidge of Nurgle in this edition, and I may not even play daemons at all because I just don't have the time to play that I once did (I have currently only played 2 whole games of 8th). Eldar are my first love in 40K, so when I do get a game, it will likely be with them.

So I am selling off all my Khorne, Nurlge and Slaanesh models. With the extra cash, I will be getting some extra Eldar and maybe some more Tzeentch units.
What I am asking of the group, is what extra Tzeentch units I should expand on. This is what I have:
Spoiler:
1 Exalted LoC (Magnus)
1 regular LoC (60mm base)/ Tzeentch Deamon Prince
Changeling
2 Disc Heralds magnetized to also go on 2 Chariots
3 Exalted Flamers (2 of which are also magnetized for my above 2 Chariots)
6 Pink Horrors (because reasons)
10 Blues painted, 10 unpainted (could be painted Pink if they fix the rules/points)
32 Brims
8 "griff hounds" that can either be Screamers, but most likely Flamers
4 Daemon Princes (2 can be Nurgle or Tz, 1 is Belakor, 1 is unpainted atm)
1 Heldrake


So aside from "more Brims" and "more Flamers/ E-flamers", what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?

-


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 17:26:20


Post by: labmouse42


knas wrote:
I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.
Make sure there is LoS blocking terrain.
If you are playing on a blank table, shooting armies are hands down the best.

That's why events like NOVA, BAO, and LVO have so much terrain.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 18:11:13


Post by: Cephalobeard


In other news, beyond the FW model and Slaughter Brute/Mutaliths has anyone found a suitable model to use in their place? The FW model is ugly as sin and the Mutaliths have been sold out for ages.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 18:22:55


Post by: Gordon Shumway


I'll be using a zombie dragon to run as a giant chaos spawn with my NL force.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 18:24:00


Post by: Cephalobeard


Fits very well with Night Lords. I approve.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 18:36:25


Post by: labmouse42


 Galef wrote:
what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?
Honestly Galef , you can make a semi-competitive list out of any of the chaos gods.

I've been running a 'semi-competitive' nurgle list since 8th dropped and I've been doing well at my events. I'm winning about 2/3 of my games at local RTTs, which I'm pretty happy with. I'm not willing these events, but I'm landing slightly above middle of the pack -- which I'm happy with as I'm playing a 'themed army'.
If you are looking for a hyper-competitive list, then you should be asking a different question. The answer to that is 180+ brimstones and the changling. Add exalted flamers for spice.
Personally, I do not advise chasing that meta. It's easy to blow 200+ bucks on that only to have it made invalid with a FAQ or new codex drop. I would instead recommend building and painting what you like.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 19:01:28


Post by: Galef


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Galef wrote:
what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?
Honestly Galef , you can make a semi-competitive list out of any of the chaos gods.

I've been running a 'semi-competitive' nurgle list since 8th dropped and I've been doing well at my events. I'm winning about 2/3 of my games at local RTTs, which I'm pretty happy with. I'm not willing these events, but I'm landing slightly above middle of the pack -- which I'm happy with as I'm playing a 'themed army'.
If you are looking for a hyper-competitive list, then you should be asking a different question. The answer to that is 180+ brimstones and the changling. Add exalted flamers for spice.
Personally, I do not advise chasing that meta. It's easy to blow 200+ bucks on that only to have it made invalid with a FAQ or new codex drop. I would instead recommend building and painting what you like.

Sound advice as usual, thanks

My main hang up is the inability to take units from all 4 gods as I have done in the past. You really need to focus on 1-2 for a semi-competitive list. To that end, I have chosen Tzeentch with some Nurgle Princes. I have no intention of getting any more Brims. I have enough models for 4 units and Reinforcement points to summon more as those models die.
I am holding my breath for an FAQ before I buy more.

There's a good chance that I may sell it all since I just can't get enough games due to work and family obligations. I plan on putting all my Tzeentch stuff up for sale as well, just at a really high price. If it sells, great, if not, I'll keep the army.

-


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 19:41:43


Post by: labmouse42


 Galef wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 Galef wrote:
what else do I need to fill out a viable semi-competitive list?
Honestly Galef , you can make a semi-competitive list out of any of the chaos gods.

I've been running a 'semi-competitive' nurgle list since 8th dropped and I've been doing well at my events. I'm winning about 2/3 of my games at local RTTs, which I'm pretty happy with. I'm not willing these events, but I'm landing slightly above middle of the pack -- which I'm happy with as I'm playing a 'themed army'.
If you are looking for a hyper-competitive list, then you should be asking a different question. The answer to that is 180+ brimstones and the changling. Add exalted flamers for spice.
Personally, I do not advise chasing that meta. It's easy to blow 200+ bucks on that only to have it made invalid with a FAQ or new codex drop. I would instead recommend building and painting what you like.

Sound advice as usual, thanks

My main hang up is the inability to take units from all 4 gods as I have done in the past. You really need to focus on 1-2 for a semi-competitive list. To that end, I have chosen Tzeentch with some Nurgle Princes. I have no intention of getting any more Brims. I have enough models for 4 units and Reinforcement points to summon more as those models die.
I am holding my breath for an FAQ before I buy more.

There's a good chance that I may sell it all since I just can't get enough games due to work and family obligations. I plan on putting all my Tzeentch stuff up for sale as well, just at a really high price. If it sells, great, if not, I'll keep the army.

-
I understand how sometimes you need to sell your stuff.
If you have a list of ALL your models, I'l be happy to try and put together some daemon lists for you using all 4 gods.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 20:14:36


Post by: knas


Some solid tips, cheers!

Cephalobeard wrote:Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.


I find it hard to get a good ratio of horrors / plague bearers down, I usually end up bringing too few or too many of them.

labmouse42 wrote:
knas wrote:
I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.
Make sure there is LoS blocking terrain.
If you are playing on a blank table, shooting armies are hands down the best.

That's why events like NOVA, BAO, and LVO have so much terrain.


Hm, yeah we have had very little terrain when playing, and even when we do some models like the Changeling or heralds on a disc are almost impossible to hide from snipers because of their tall models!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 20:44:26


Post by: labmouse42


knas wrote:
Hm, yeah we have had very little terrain when playing, and even when we do some models like the Changeling or heralds on a disc are almost impossible to hide from snipers because of their tall models!
That's a big problem.
Look at the layout below for the NOVA open 2017. This is what you should try and make your games look like -- or as close to it as possible. You need at least one big (preferably two) LOS blockers in the middle of the board. A good compromise if you don't have those is to say that ruins are opaque and you cannot see through them.

Otherwise, you are being placed at a gaming disadvantage. Reenacting Stalingrad with your 40k models may be fun for your opponent, but it's not a very interesting game. Play with the terrain layout below and you will see a big change.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 21:02:57


Post by: Samii


A friend of mine is a Chaos player and has come up with an interesting tactic that he calls 'Speed Bumping,' which is basically turning your opponent's screening units into screens for your own Super Heavies and hard-hitters.

It involves summoning a single Fiend and using it to tie up a screening unit; then he assaults something big and scary into the screening unit. In the following player turn, the hard hitter will usually finish off the screen (which can't fall back) and can then move and charge, essentially allowing it to repeat the Speed Bump, without getting shot to pieces. It basically enables them to get to the juicier targets, without suffering said shooting.

Even with armies that can Fly (I play Tau and Eldar for example and have had this used against me), they still tend to need screening units which don't Fly, which is why the tactic is effective. Combine it with cheap screens (Horrors) and tying-up units (Nurglings) and it is possible to mitigate a lot of shooting.

So far the most effective combinations have been:

1) Knights: which can get tied up and then delete large sections of your enemies army with shooting, without reprisal. Cf Lord of Skulls and Autos'Keres (I forget the name).
2) Greater Daemons: who can be summoned with the fiend (KS and GUO) and have a high damage output and psychic powers, increasing the chances of killing the screening unit in the opposing player's turn and then getting to move/charge. Cf Magnus.
3) Berzerkers: getting to fight twice increases the likelihood of killing the screening unit in their turn, otherwise they can simply fight again and consolidate into a new unit in your own turn; then have the Fiend charge in.

He uses a different tactic to address flyer spam, which involves Summoning lots of Screamers, Horrors, Flamers and Exalted Flamers, but the beauty of the Summoning rules is that he can choose which units to Summon, depending on the situation. He has been playing a few games against the generic lists (Ravenspam, Hordes, Guilliman etc) and has yet to lose once, so far he is about 22-0, but the last time I spoke to him was before Codex: Space Marines, so I don't know if that has changed.

While I am not an expert on 40K, I think Summoning is pretty cool and it is something that only Chaos can do.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/26 22:11:35


Post by: Fr33lander


Summoning Flamers stinks in the 8e.

The range of their weaponry means they are unable to fire on a target after summoning and since they are less than ideal in CC, they are useless even if they do make that 50-50 charge roll of 8".

While Tzeentch's lesser Daemons were underwhelming in 7th, at least the Flamers could appear within striking distance and immolate at least one squad, now they appear to do nothing at all.

I can see the value of a Horror unit summoned as a screen though.

I am trying my Tzeentch Daemons as a fun Blood Bowl team. . . Extra Arms and some kind of Splitting makes for interesting games.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/27 02:57:16


Post by: labmouse42


Fr33lander wrote:
While Tzeentch's lesser Daemons were underwhelming in 7th, at least the Flamers could appear within striking distance and immolate at least one squad, now they appear to do nothing at all.
Except burn things to an absolute cinder.

9 Flamers will average 31.5 STR 4, AP -1 hits on an enemy unit. That's a staggering amount of damage done to units.
Flamers can move 12" and can fly, meaning they can ignore terrain and leave combat to shoot.
They also have pistols, meaning they can shoot into combat.

3 full flamers squads with the changling nearby to give them -1 to be hit are downright nasty. I've tried them a few times and they are BBQ on a stick.

Scabeiathrax
I ran 'Scabby' for the first time tonight. Holy crap, he was good.
My opponent was a DE gun line with 4 flyers, 3 ravagers, 2 raiders and 2 venoms. That is not what I was wanting to play against :\
Scabby is T9, which means that the dark lances were wounding on a 5+. He took a few hits from the dark lances, but overall weathered multiple rounds of shooting without dying. The biggest weapons against him were the poisoned weapons (duh). Even still, a 4++, DR, and 6+ warlord trait ment he took a staggering amount of damage, and still was only dropped to 4 wounds left.
Every round Scabby healed himself D3 wounds, so over the course of 5 turns he healed himself up ~10 points. This makes him even harder to kill.
Against my DE opponent, Scabby did not have many targets. He did some mortal wounds to a flyer and then threw up on it. His biggest role was just soaking up tons of fire.

As a result, I'll probably keep taking him. He was a nice change, and I think worth it for my list.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/27 07:46:02


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Um... I think he meant summoning flamers. Since you summon them 9'' away and their guns are 8'' range.I doubt anyone would ever say they are bad :p


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/27 12:03:06


Post by: Cephalobeard


To be fair, "appear to do nothing at all" likely could have been worded better, but yeah, I believe the intent was "they appear AND THEN do nothing at all THAT TURN"

In other news, I caved and have purchased my first Mutalith for use as a Giant Chaos Spawn. I'll report back with how it does on the table after it's arrived and I've done some testing.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/27 13:04:59


Post by: DarkBlack


Fr33lander wrote:Summoning Flamers stinks in the 8e.

The range of their weaponry means they are unable to fire on a target after summoning and since they are less than ideal in CC, they are useless even if they do make that 50-50 charge roll of 8".

While Tzeentch's lesser Daemons were underwhelming in 7th, at least the Flamers could appear within striking distance and immolate at least one squad, now they appear to do nothing at all.

I can see the value of a Horror unit summoned as a screen though.


Drop them in or around another unit and so your opponent their overwatch to worry about. Bring them in after knowing your opponent has something they are good against.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/28 08:36:28


Post by: Cheeslord


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.


I've been meaning to ask about this. I have tried to use horrors and just don't get it. At 10 points per model you get something with firepower, durability and melee capability similar to a guardsman (Ok, slightly more durable with 4++ save but still fragile) but without the supporting units. You can pay a ridiculous amount to give them the ability to split, but this just gives you more bodies that have no shooting and weak melee, and can contribute to failing your morale check by a larger margin.

Is it all about having lots of units of 5 to get off Smites? (thats only typically one smite going off per 3 units)? How do you make horrors work for you in 8th edition?

I quite like Flamers still (despite losing Template);- with flying and their flames being pistol weapons they are a lot less scared of melee than they used to be.

Mark.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/28 08:41:59


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


Cheeslord wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.


I've been meaning to ask about this. I have tried to use horrors and just don't get it. At 10 points per model you get something with firepower, durability and melee capability similar to a guardsman (Ok, slightly more durable with 4++ save but still fragile) but without the supporting units. You can pay a ridiculous amount to give them the ability to split, but this just gives you more bodies that have no shooting and weak melee, and can contribute to failing your morale check by a larger margin.

Is it all about having lots of units of 5 to get off Smites? (thats only typically one smite going off per 3 units)? How do you make horrors work for you in 8th edition?

I quite like Flamers still (despite losing Template);- with flying and their flames being pistol weapons they are a lot less scared of melee than they used to be.

Mark.


The trick with horrors is not taking Pinks at all, but rather swathes of Brimstones with each unit having a single Blue Horror to cast Smite with (as Brimstones die if they cast Smite).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/28 11:59:01


Post by: D6Damager


Cheeslord wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.


I've been meaning to ask about this. I have tried to use horrors and just don't get it. At 10 points per model you get something with firepower, durability and melee capability similar to a guardsman (Ok, slightly more durable with 4++ save but still fragile) but without the supporting units. You can pay a ridiculous amount to give them the ability to split, but this just gives you more bodies that have no shooting and weak melee, and can contribute to failing your morale check by a larger margin.

Is it all about having lots of units of 5 to get off Smites? (thats only typically one smite going off per 3 units)? How do you make horrors work for you in 8th edition?

I quite like Flamers still (despite losing Template);- with flying and their flames being pistol weapons they are a lot less scared of melee than they used to be.

Mark.


The concept behind Horrors splitting is that you can still hold and outnumber on an opponent while sitting on a objective even though you are taking casualties. So, the value of the Split rule is best achieved in Maelstrom missions.

Also, looking at the new Marine codex they have brought back troops getting 'objective secured'. Perhaps when we get our codex we'll get the same for daemon troops giving us a reason to actually use them besides extra wound screens for characters.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/28 12:36:54


Post by: TheWizard


I have a question about taking Instruments of chaos: In the index book for Bloodletters it says for every ten models in the unit you can take one instrument of chaos. Does this mean if I take 30 Bloodletters I can take 3 instruments adding 3 to advance and charge rolls?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/28 12:57:29


Post by: Galef


 TheWizard wrote:
I have a question about taking Instruments of chaos: In the index book for Bloodletters it says for every ten models in the unit you can take one instrument of chaos. Does this mean if I take 30 Bloodletters I can take 3 instruments adding 3 to advance and charge rolls?

Sadly no. The ability says if the unit contains "any" Instruments it gains +1" advance and charge. Not 1" per Instrument


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/28 13:14:43


Post by: TheWizard


 Galef wrote:
 TheWizard wrote:
I have a question about taking Instruments of chaos: In the index book for Bloodletters it says for every ten models in the unit you can take one instrument of chaos. Does this mean if I take 30 Bloodletters I can take 3 instruments adding 3 to advance and charge rolls?

Sadly no. The ability says if the unit contains "any" Instruments it gains +1" advance and charge. Not 1" per Instrument


Ah damn that would've made summoning amazing!! Haha


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/28 14:56:32


Post by: Cheeslord


 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


The trick with horrors is not taking Pinks at all, but rather swathes of Brimstones with each unit having a single Blue Horror to cast Smite with (as Brimstones die if they cast Smite).


Nice one! I somehow overlooked that you could start with brimstone and blue horrors. So a 23 point troop choice ... doesn't really need to achieve much but if it does it's a bonus (if it ever gets off the Smite it will probably kill more than its value...not to mention getting in the way and swarming objectives). Still, I will probably wait for the codex before committing to buying the huge number of models required for this...

Mark.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 03:48:11


Post by: rvd1ofakind


4th place BAO list:
2xGiant chaos spawn
5x malefic lord
A ton of brimstones
MAGNUS
2x Knight 2x avenger

Rofl. My 1500 pts list was very close to this. Except zarakynel instead of 1 knight and no Malefic Lord. Looks like I'm on the right track here

17th place(relevent on a 126 tournament
Dp wings (nurgle)
Epidemius
Herald
30 plaguebearers(icon(!!!), instrument)
2x 9 brim 1 blue
3 nurglings
2x malefic lord
Scabby
600 reserve points (WHAT)

NURGLE BEST ARMY??? SUMMONING ACTUALLY USEFUL???
Whelp. Any idea what was summoned? Bloodletter bombs? GUO/KoS? Ofc the answer is "literally anything" but...

Tournament ain't over yet. But this is interesting

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A pretty ok placing list had 8 beasts of nurgle and a soulgrinder... ok...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 04:11:06


Post by: labmouse42


This past weekend I played in an ITC RTT with my Nurgle Army. This post is about what I learned and hopefully it will help you if you are thinking of rolling nurgle.

Spoiler:
Battalion
1 Daemon Prince w/double claws
1 Herald of Nurgle

30 Plaguebearers w/Instruments
30 Plaguebearers w/Instruments
7 Nurglings

7 Plague Drones w/Instruments

Supreme Command
1 Malefic Lord
1 Malefic Lord
1 Malefic Lord

Supreme Command
1 Malefic Lord
1 Malefic Lord
1 Malefic Lord
1 Scabeiathrax

Summary
At the core if it, the list is a bit of a smite spam army -- tossing out 9 smites a turn and scabby is throwing another blast for 10 smites per turn. 20 mortal wounds a round is pretty good at taking out unwanted units.
Scabeiathrax is an absolute beatstick who brings a nice buff to the plague bearers. Scabeiathrax can kill a knight in one round fairly easily.
It's not a hyper aggressive list. It's more of a 'squat on objectives' and play for the mission kind of a thing.
I've not been blowing out my opponents with it, but it has been performing well.


Round One : 3 Knights + Magnus
My first round against a 'boogyman' list with Michael Vagenos. Firstly, let me give a shout out to Mike. If you -ever- get the chance to play him, I highly recommend it. Even with a total 'cheezy net list' he was a fantastic player to play with. If you ever attend GTs and find yourself paired -- you will have a great game.
We were playing Nova format, mission one -- six objectives in a hex pattern.
I got first furn and moved forward with Scaggy in the middle and my two plaguebearer squads to either side.
Mike brought 3 knights, two of them with dual avenger cannons and the third with a sword and double battle cannon. He played near perfectly. He focused on flank, hitting one squad of plaguebearers with 2 knights and magnus -- doing little overall. Scaggy giving a -1 to hit, combined with a the -1 from the 'cloud of flies' means titanic feet are hitting on a 5+. They managed to kill a total of 10 plaguebearers, forcing me to blow two command points to keep them around without battle shock wounds.
Magnus tried to warptime to fly over my blob nuke then assault Scaggy, but I blocked his warptime.
That next round Magnus left the combat to fly into my rear, and Scaggy went into combat to smack around some knights. Scaggy buffed himself with the nurgle power that gives +1 to wound -- and completely wrecked two knights. Magus found himself staring down 9 smites plus Scaggy's vomit, then fell over dead.
Scaggy then bounced to the other knight, killing it. On turn four, his final knight rushed into Scaggy, taking 6 wounds of the overwatch only to get himself killed.
The total score was 15 to 2

Round Two: 2 Knights/Magnus/Brimstones/2 Princes/Belakor
I rushed forward with my drones and my prince up a flank -- and he moved Be'Lakor and Magnus up and wrecked that assault.
I gave up first blood through this mistake and a turn of 'butcher's bill'.
The rest of the game was me sitting on my objectives and him sitting on his -- he was afraid to move into smite spam range, and I could not advance forward enough to grab the objectives.
The total score was 8 to 10, with Dan Bunker winning. Had I kept my plague drones and nurglings back -- and taking Heart of the Matter and Progressive scoring, I would have won.
However, the way the game worked out -- the total score was low for both of us. We were both knocked out of running for the whole RTT.

Round Three: Imperial Fists
This was mission four of Nova, which is 4 objectives plus kill points.
Cary Gould -- another fantastic guy to play with -- brought a very well rounded marine list. The deployment was hammer and anvil.
It was a pretty simple game. He sat back and shot at me. The plague drones wrecked his storm raven, and Scaggy eventually got into the battle ripping apart 4 units on turn 6 - solidifying my win.
I pulled the game out 15 to 2.

Takeaways
* The malific lords really do combo well with this list -- they are the grease on the wheels. When people stick flyers or Magnus in my face, it get's smited down. They don't have good range, so they are not good for long range damage. They are almost more of a defensive bonus to the units -- which they do very well. 6 mortal wounds of damage a turn standing in the middle of 30 plaguebearers is a big "stay away" sign. I don't suggest bringing 15 of them. 6 is about the magic number I think -- with maybe 8 on the high end. They are really good, but lost effectiveness because of the lack of range.

* The stacking of -1 to hit in the fight phase between scaggy and the plaguebearers is bonkers good. It halves the damage output of knights doing the 'river dance' move.
On the same subject, the plauge bearers were again boss. In my third game, my opponent spent 3 full rounds shooting at one squad to not even completely kill it. Only in the first game did they take enough damage to lose one squad. 30 plaguebearers are just dead hard to remove at this point in 8th edition.

* I'm going to drop the plague drones and prince and pick up some bloat-drones from the starter boxed set. I'm just not 100% happy with the plague drones and they felt slightly out of place. I might replace them with some death guard with the codex comes out.

* I'll probably also drop the herald and upgrade to Epidemius. I kill enough crap in games to rack up the bonus' when things get close. In the past 6 games I've played, there has only been one fight (against knights) that the +1 STR has been worthwhile. In every other case it's not worth it. Epi is 30 more points and a lot harder to kill.

* The list does not score max game every game in Nova format -- it's not possible given the Butchers Bill. It does well, as evidence by me pulling 2 victories against national level players. However, it won't win first place at a GT anytime soon - mostly because of the lack of ability to rack up the butcher's bill vs shooty armies, and that the only secondary you can guarantee is "Heart of the Matter" .
Likewise it's also really hard to pick secondary's against it, and to rack up 'Butchers Bill'. Linebreaker seems great, but often things just sit back and avoid me. Titanslayer is another red herring. Scaggy takes 1/3 of a wound per LC shot. (I can go into the deep math if you really want) Cull the herds is another red herring. You are NOT going to be killing 60 plaguebearers.
If you want to play a game where you sit on objectives, throw a party and invite your opponent to come join - it's a great list.
I personally think it's a hell of a lot of fun -- but everyone's mileage my vary.

* Scaggy is an absolute beast. He strugs of lascannon shots (each one does 1/3 of a wound per shot on average). He absolutely destroyed anything he touched. In the RTT and the two practice games before - he was the complete MVP. His ability to one shots knights is fantastic. When buffed with Virulent Blessing, on 'to wound' rolls of a 6, he is doing 12 damage -- which is simply silly overkill. in one round I did 36 wounds to a fortification. The damage output is just silly. This is good because it gives board control. You stick scaggy in the middle of the board, and you have a threat area with a radius of 14" where you basically kill anything that get's near.

* The nurglings seemed to do better holding backfield objectives than rushing forward. In the third game I stuck them on an objective and it worked out great. I think I'll keep them in that role moving forward. They are only 5 points per wound. If you run the math, for backfield objectives they are cheaper than poxwalkers.

* Plague drones plus the Virulent Blessing still work out very well. When I assaulted a storm raven, He had to make 9 saves that were doing 4 damage each. That completely wrecked the raven. The blessing just compounds so well with damage of 2 or more -- since the total damage is doubled.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 09:39:37


Post by: Spiky Norman


Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 09:57:08


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


Spiky Norman wrote:
Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.

It's a HQ from the Renegades & Heretics list in Imperial Armour - Index: Forces of the Astra Millitarum.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 11:43:05


Post by: jbeil


Hello my daemon friends; I'm a CSM player and I'm trying to get at least one unit from each Legion, and as part of that I expect to get a lot of Chaos characters, who can now summon daemons. In a list primarily built around CSM (Beserkers in Rhinos, Havocs at the back, Slaanesh marines slogging up the board and clinging to objectives and cover in the middle). I realise this isn't a very helpful description of my army, but how would you use Daemons, particularly summons, to beef a marine force up?

Plaguebearers seem too slow and not very killy, the Daemonettes could work for making absolutely sure you get the first attack from the quicksilver rule, but Bloodletters, as per normal, seem really to be the very best lesser daemon in the book.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 12:02:28


Post by: Spiky Norman


 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Spiky Norman wrote:
Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.

It's a HQ from the Renegades & Heretics list in Imperial Armour - Index: Forces of the Astra Millitarum.

Thanks, found it now :-)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 12:18:30


Post by: Cephalobeard


Fantastic write up as always, Labmouse. I'm glad that bit of Lord Tech worked out well for you!



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 13:46:38


Post by: labmouse42


Spiky Norman wrote:
Apologies for a question on what is perhaps an obvious, but when you are refering to 'Malefic lord' - What unit is that?

I search a few pages back and the Index: Chaos, plus looked at the index of the FW Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of Chaos, but didn't find the answer in either places.
The quick summary of them are the following
* No weapons.
* 4++ save
* Full psyker, casting on normal dice. Their renegades and heretics powers are such high costs to cast you are just better off with smite statically.
* Move 6 - which means they don't work if you are playing a fast moving force.
* 4 wounds
* If they perils, their statline increases to the level of a min-daemon prince. In my 6 games using them, it's happened twice.
* HQ slot
* 30 points

They are good. There is no doubt to that, but they are a bit hyped online right now. You will see some lists sporting 15 of them, but the reality is that you wont get to use all those smites. The short range and short move range means they just can't hit every round.
Don't get me wrong, when a flyer gets close, it gets burned hard as multiple smites just hammer into it. In the past 6 games smites have wrecked tau flyers, DE flyers, Magnus, and did 6 points to a stormraven this game. In other games my smites have done the same thing to eldar wraithflyers.

You also cannot walk through through your own models, so you have to create a 'pocket for them. This can make movement tricky. Your opponent should not let you just move all of them forward intermingled into plaguebearers. This allowed a flyer to come land behind a lord and kill it. I've had lords assaulted because of this as well.
Of course, the flyers died the next turn from the other lords, heralds, and scaggy.....

Again, it depends on the army you are playing. In some cases they are great. Their best perk is that they are cheap. Dropping 180 points for 6 of them to fill up to Supreme Command detachments and gain 2 CPs and gain 6 smites in your backfield is pretty nice...

As a note, they also mean that you will be always be going last (in the case of auto-go first mechanics) or you will be losing the +1 to the die roll. My nurgle army does not care, because it's just so damn tough. However, if you are playing a more fragile army, upping your total drops to 14+ may be a bad thing.
That said, I often would drop a squad of plaguebearers with my pocket created, then drop in 3 lords in them. I would repeat the excerecise on the other side, drop scaggy and the herald in the middle and usually my opponent was done deploying by them. This let me think about where I wanted to put bloat drones, prince and nurgling to the best advantage.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Fantastic write up as always, Labmouse. I'm glad that bit of Lord Tech worked out well for you!
Definitely. Thanks for the tip.

I'm really trying my best not to make people go crazy about them. They are very good. Perhaps even on the level of Magnus, Conscripts, Stromravens. or Brimstones.
When the meta shifts away from super-heavies and people start using cheap screening units (like conscripts) they become a lot less effective.
What I'm hoping is that people don't run out and throw 13 in a list and expect to auto-win.
That's why i keep describing them as a counter-unit.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 14:19:08


Post by: Cephalobeard


Yes.

Agreed.

I'm using a mix of them and Herald's on Discs. Let's me maintain cheap, efficient shirt range smite's and the ability to track down faster targets and maneuver better with fly, etc.

I'm also excited to add my 3 Giant Spawn, however it appears I won't be receiving them all in the mail in time for when I'd like to.

As with all things Daemons, a mix of units proves to be the important note.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/30 14:39:55


Post by: Captyn_Bob


 labmouse42 wrote:

As a note, they also mean that you will be always be going last (in the case of auto-go first mechanics) or you will be losing the +1 to the die roll. My nurgle army does not care, because it's just so damn tough. However, if you are playing a more fragile army, upping your total drops to 14+ may be a bad thing.

Unless you pop them all in a transport, which R&H have. The idea of flying valykries, ogryns and maelific lords around has a certain appeal. Ridiculous movement.
(1 deployment drop can fit 3 flyers, 3 ogryn units of 3 & 9 lords)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 08:21:37


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 blackmage wrote:
demons and genestealer, or everyone not having a save 3+ or better, just die quick against demonettes thanks to huge number of attacks. I dont want argue with u, but mathammer is pointless, play and see is the better school. sorry for the bother.


Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 10:09:33


Post by: blackmage


The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 10:55:38


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big


Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 11:48:57


Post by: str00dles1


Looking for any kind of advice on Khorne.

Since 8th is all about shooting or smiting, and he lacks both, what is a way to play him so im not just tabled all the time?

I feel a single land raider with Kharn and Berzerkers is a must, as it gets him there nd atleast has lascannons. Anyone else have successful experience in a pure Khorne Deamon/World Eater army?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 12:05:54


Post by: Cephalobeard


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big


Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.


Because a Seeker is 19ppm and comes in units of multiple models. They're, by nature, more defensive against Las Cannons and other high damage, low shot attacks. A Helldrake as a single model, while decent, is not an obvious "just do this" over the Seekers. Clearly it worked for the person piloting this list, and perhaps we'll get their opinion eventually.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 12:31:45


Post by: labmouse42


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments
What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 12:45:53


Post by: Cephalobeard


 labmouse42 wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments
What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?


According to BCP there was only one Daemon player in the Top 8, and only 2 in the Top 18.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 13:21:12


Post by: labmouse42


 Cephalobeard wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments
What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?


According to BCP there was only one Daemon player in the Top 8, and only 2 in the Top 18.
I saw one Chaos player in the top 8, and the next at 18. Chaos could be CSM and daemons, heretics, etc...




Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 13:30:39


Post by: Cephalobeard


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well now that BAO(the biggest tournement so far) is over, we can see that seekers are apparently the most viable Slaanesh unit. Since:
1. It was the only slaanesh unit in the tournament AFAIK
2. The highest placing chaos army had 2x 8 seekers with instruments
What else was in his list? The seekers are just a small piece.
Where did the other daemon players rank?


According to BCP there was only one Daemon player in the Top 8, and only 2 in the Top 18.
I saw one Chaos player in the top 8, and the next at 18. Chaos could be CSM and daemons, heretics, etc...




Makes all the people whining about Daemons and Horrors pretty ironic to me, considering how balance this top 8/16 Ended up looking at the end.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 14:28:49


Post by: blackmage


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big


Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Helldrakes arent nearly close about damage output, Too few attacks Too low ap and very vulnerables to multi damage weapons


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 14:31:50


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 blackmage wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big


Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Helldrakes arent nearly close about damage output, Too few attacks Too low ap and very vulnerables to multi damage weapons


Which is what I said after the first 2 sentences, yes.
You said seekers are all about speed. Which is not true. It's the fact that they have speed and damage. The horse attacks are not an afterthought. They are at least 40% of the model's damage.
Daemonettes are an afterthought at the moment. It's like they don't have any redeeming qualities.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 14:36:38


Post by: Cephalobeard


It's also literally what Blackmage wrote, then you quoted him asking a question and then repeating what he wrote, yes

If you're going to vaguely ask a question, try not to come off as snippity when you receive replies. Makes you end up looking a little rude.

Edit:

He did NOT say they're all about speed, he said their speed AND CHARGE which obviously implies them attacking and doing damage.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 15:32:47


Post by: knas


Are the FW indexes considered eligible in general? Or just in certain parts of the community?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 15:50:01


Post by: blackmage


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
The reason why seekers are played is thanks to speed and fact they can move advance and charge , thats big


Why not just spam heldrakes then? They are almost twice as fast. The reason seeker are used is that they have great speed and great damage. While daemonettes do (very slightly) more damage, their slowness makes them borderline unusable as long as seekers exist.

Helldrakes arent nearly close about damage output, Too few attacks Too low ap and very vulnerables to multi damage weapons


Which is what I said after the first 2 sentences, yes.
You said seekers are all about speed. Which is not true. It's the fact that they have speed and damage. The horse attacks are not an afterthought. They are at least 40% of the model's damage.
Daemonettes are an afterthought at the moment. It's like they don't have any redeeming qualities.

wait if you compare helldrakes with seekers of course there is no match about damage... a fact is seekers are playesd over demonetters cause they are faster and demonettes cant move advance and assault, in a game like 8th edition you cant afford to wait 1 more turn to charge with fragile units like demonettes.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 16:40:08


Post by: labmouse42


 blackmage wrote:
, in a game like 8th edition you cant afford to wait 1 more turn to charge with fragile units like demonettes.
That's actually a realization that hit me last weekend while playing with my Nurgle army.
In most games, I want to go first. The odds of me giving up first blood are so small, that it's not really a huge concern. If my opponent rushes me, it's one more turn of smite spamming. If they are just hanging back, it nets to total number of turns i have to weather fire while squatting on objectives.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/07/31 16:50:15


Post by: smegma_crunch


str00dles1 wrote:
Looking for any kind of advice on Khorne.

Since 8th is all about shooting or smiting, and he lacks both, what is a way to play him so im not just tabled all the time?

I feel a single land raider with Kharn and Berzerkers is a must, as it gets him there nd atleast has lascannons. Anyone else have successful experience in a pure Khorne Deamon/World Eater army?


Blood crushers, blood slaughterers, berzerkers, demon princes with wings, herald's on Juggernauts summoning in bloodletters. You can also mix with CSM shooty things and still be good fluff wise.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 14:57:41


Post by: Sokhar


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/01/legion-focus-iron-warriors-aug-1gw-homepage-post-2/

You thought Magnus was good before. Now he has something worthwhile to cast for that third power (After Warp Time & Smite). Hello Magnus with a 3++ re-rolling 1's!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 15:19:27


Post by: Cephalobeard


3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 15:22:53


Post by: whembly


 Cephalobeard wrote:
3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.

I dunno man... Maggie lasts about 2 rounds right now against a tough list. With this, he'll last at least the 3rd round if that power goes off.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 15:30:21


Post by: Cephalobeard


 whembly wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.

I dunno man... Maggie lasts about 2 rounds right now against a tough list. With this, he'll last at least the 3rd round if that power goes off.


I'm not using him at all now. I would consider using him with a better range of powers, and the ability to ensure he may live longer.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 15:55:16


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 15:57:10


Post by: whembly


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?

If you have all brimmies and they cast a power, they automatically lost a model. Having one blue-horrors works around that by virtue of being the caster.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 16:01:08


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


 whembly wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?

If you have all brimmies and they cast a power, they automatically lost a model. Having one blue-horrors works around that by virtue of being the caster.


Much appreciated. Thanks. It had been bugging me. :-p


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 16:25:51


Post by: whembly


 Cephalobeard wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
3++ Rerolling 1s Magnus is definitely a thing. He's gonna have an even stronger form on the table.

I dunno man... Maggie lasts about 2 rounds right now against a tough list. With this, he'll last at least the 3rd round if that power goes off.


I'm not using him at all now. I would consider using him with a better range of powers, and the ability to ensure he may live longer.

Actually... I take it back.

This new powah + a Command-point reroll (re-roll that 2!) will make him quite groovy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
 whembly wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, i'm probably being dense, but what does including the 1 blue-horror, in units of Brimstones, actual do?

If you have all brimmies and they cast a power, they automatically lost a model. Having one blue-horrors works around that by virtue of being the caster.


Much appreciated. Thanks. It had been bugging me. :-p

Feel free to ask... there are no dumb questions... lord knows I ask those all the time!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 17:50:33


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Oh yeah and about Magnus: I think there was a grand total of 1 list who didn't use him: the mysterious 600 summoning pts Nurgle list


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/01 20:17:44


Post by: Cephalobeard


Yeah, and according to the guy in top 18 who used Magnus, guess what happened turn 1 every game?

He died.

He said he isn't using him again.

Boy, it's shocking how that's exactly what we've been saying this whole time.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 03:02:04


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yeah, and according to the guy in top 18 who used Magnus, guess what happened turn 1 every game?

He died.

He said he isn't using him again.

Boy, it's shocking how that's exactly what we've been saying this whole time.


Guess we'll see on the next major tournament. Which is gonna be LVO or what?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 04:00:50


Post by: fued


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yeah, and according to the guy in top 18 who used Magnus, guess what happened turn 1 every game?

He died.

He said he isn't using him again.

Boy, it's shocking how that's exactly what we've been saying this whole time.

with changeling? thats a lot of firepower at a single model if so


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 04:50:12


Post by: rvd1ofakind



I still don't get it. How is it possible to kill him turn one if you're not an idiot that puts him in front. 4++ re-roll 1s with -1 to hit and LoS hidden AND 6+ feelnopain
Did he play against 4 Gauss Pylon lists?

PS: 8th edition is all about LoS terrain. If you don't have enough of it on the table prior rolling to deploy - complain. If they don't give you it - leave, they're stupid and you shouldn't play with them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 05:47:44


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I mean, Magnus is taller than most LOS blocking terrain. I can see it being an issue.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 07:47:50


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Captyn_Bob wrote:
I mean, Magnus is taller than most LOS blocking terrain. I can see it being an issue.

Eh, not really. Since wings don't count (aka the things that make him seem twice as tall), he's about as tall as 2 weapon containers. Or just a 2 story building, or a cliff, or a hill, or a bastion if you use it as terrain like we do. Like I can hide him behind 75% of our terrain since wings don't count. And I can even place him behind terrain far away from the battlefield since he can fly half-way across the map and charge up to 12 more inches


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 08:18:45


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Wings do seem to count this edition. See the "choose targets" step in the shooting phase of the rulebook.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 08:21:21


Post by: Eldarain


Yeah. My bigger bugs are not enjoying being vaporized from wing and claw tip injuries.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 08:29:29


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Yeah, now that you mention it, that does seem to be the case as per RAW. However this is really really modeling for advantage. "My magnus got his wings torn off, it's battle damage, now he levitates everywhere" or the guys who use non-basic Daemon Princes saying they have wings. I'd rather just house rule to wings don't count tbh... For me, I want my miniature to have it's wings spread in it's full glory however that is the dumbest thing to do, according to RAW. Hm.. I'll have to ask the Frontline guys that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or how about the guys who build the models themselves. For example, they've built magnus to be the same size but with the wings down. And now in 8th edition that suddenly means they have a huge advantage. Yeah. f that


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 10:07:48


Post by: ochobits


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I still don't get it. How is it possible to kill him turn one if you're not an idiot that puts him in front. 4++ re-roll 1s with -1 to hit and LoS hidden AND 6+ feelnopain
Did he play against 4 Gauss Pylon lists?


Man, we are talking about a Top18 facing some of the best players around. If he says Magnus is tabled on Turn 1 100% of the times I will choose to believe that instead calling him an idiot.

What makes me think is... if Magnus got killed on Turn 1 every single time, how the hell did he manage to get that far in the tournament? He has to be a really good player and the rest of his army quite balanced. Does anyone has access to the entire list?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 10:22:20


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Brigade with supreme command

5 Maelific Lords
Ahriman
Changeling
Magnus
7 brims 1 blue
2 nurglings
3 disciples with missile launcher
1x 5 spawn
2x 8 seekers w/ instrument
3 wyverns


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 10:30:50


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 ochobits wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I still don't get it. How is it possible to kill him turn one if you're not an idiot that puts him in front. 4++ re-roll 1s with -1 to hit and LoS hidden AND 6+ feelnopain
Did he play against 4 Gauss Pylon lists?


Man, we are talking about a Top18 facing some of the best players around. If he says Magnus is tabled on Turn 1 100% of the times I will choose to believe that instead calling him an idiot.

What makes me think is... if Magnus got killed on Turn 1 every single time, how the hell did he manage to get that far in the tournament? He has to be a really good player and the rest of his army quite balanced. Does anyone has access to the entire list?


I didn't call him an idiot. I called placing your most important unit on the front line when going second most of the time idiotic.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 12:14:42


Post by: Cephalobeard


We already covered he can't hide as well as you thought he could.

It's entirely possible the Magnus' player goes first, smites/charges and then he immediately dies the following turn. As to what he's facing, he made a specific comment regarding artillery, especially artillery that doesn't need LOS, just sending volume of fire at Magnus. It doesn't matter how good his save is, if you shoot it 100+ times he's bound to fail a good number of them.

Most of us here with experience have shared that Magnus dies. Someone who used him at one of the largest tournaments so far gave that same opinion.

While it may be difficult to understand the fact that it happens, that burden lies on you at this point. Everyone else seems to nod their head and acknowledge that it's very likely to happen.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 13:46:06


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Where are you getting all this information about his opinion. Are you a friend or did he post it somewhere?

Maybe he has lists he faced and deployment maps? I'd go full on mathhammer it out to see if it's likelly he'll die turn 1. I'll count every 48'' weapon including units that can get close enough during the movement phase.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 14:37:07


Post by: Cephalobeard


I spoke with him directly, yes. Friend? No. We definitely spoke about if after the event, though.

Edit:

There is a "competitive 40k" facebook group. We all chat and discuss a great deal of things there, and a number of these guys all give their feedback after events there. You're welcome to join and do exactly the same. No hidden knowledge or anything.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 20:16:49


Post by: blackmage


big monsters aren't a factor in 8th edition. period,


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 21:41:31


Post by: Vomikron Noxis


Anyone making good use of scabeithrax? Seems a shame to have him sit on my shelf forever...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 23:42:14


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Anyone have any suggestions for good/cheap "Counts-as" Brimstone Horrors?

I just got a huge lot of Daemons and can finally start experimenting, but of course, the lot had zero Brimstones, but plenty of Pinks/Blues. I can't even imagine buying 9+ boxes of Blues, just to get a large number of the little-guys.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 23:49:08


Post by: Eldarain


Skull Pass Night Goblins painted in Tzeentchian colors?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 23:52:40


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


 Eldarain wrote:
Skull Pass Night Goblins painted in Tzeentchian colors?



Hmmm... I do own, about 60 of those... tempting, though I worry tournament organizers would cry fowl. Anything third-party?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 23:53:05


Post by: Eldarain


Bunch of little gobbo wizards blowing themselves up with Smite sounds awesome


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/02 23:55:37


Post by: ZergSmasher


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions for good/cheap "Counts-as" Brimstone Horrors?

I just got a huge lot of Daemons and can finally start experimenting, but of course, the lot had zero Brimstones, but plenty of Pinks/Blues. I can't even imagine buying 9+ boxes of Blues, just to get a large number of the little-guys.

I'm thinking about just making some out of modelling putty. Just put a couple of lumps on a small base, sculpt them into a suitable shape (like little flames or something), paint them yellow, and profit! I've got loads of extra small bases since I've rebased most of my Space Marines onto the 32mm ones, and I think that something simple like Brimstone Horrors might be within my abilities as a sculptor.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/03 01:49:01


Post by: Rydria


Played the following 2500pts list today vs a tyranid army which had two squads of 20 genestealers with broodlord, swarm lord, some three units of gaunts for screening, an exocrine, an hive crone (one with flamer) two 4 man zoanthrope, two mawlocs and a Dimachaeron.

Took the advice and dropped zeraknyl which i didn't regret since it allowed me to take 2 daemon princes and an extra herald on seeker chariot. I also tried a max sized seeker squad since i recall someone mentioned that they are actually quite good, and I wasn't disappointed, much better than the msu squads I ran before.

The huge unit of seekers despite getting reduced to 1 did a really good job at chaffing my opponents army killing 1 unit of 10 gaunts, 1 unit of 20 gaunts (on first turn) then it survived being charged by two units of 20 Genestealers and a broodlord because he killed half with his first 20 and I moved the casualties from near the second unit to deny them from attacking. (praise command point auto pass leadership) They then with the help of a herald chariot and a daemon prince killed 1 unit of the Genestealers they then spent the rest of the game locked into combat with the broodlord (with the last remaining seeker finally killing him on the final turn we played)

One of the 10 girl seeker units managed to multi charge 10 gaunts and sneak around to get the exocrine too preventing it from shooting which was nice, they spent the entire game in combat with the exocrine and a malanthrope who jumped in to help. (no idea why he didn't withdraw the exocrine until the turn before the last)

The two units of daemonettes killed a mawloc each (both of which deep striked next to them killing 3 in both units) they then went on to double team the remaining 20 man genestealer unit slaughtering it, thanks to combination of the herald + daemon prince aura and the masque's +1 to hit buff. 1 of these units then got charged by the swarmlord who regretted his mistake when he died in one round after only killing 3.

The chariots and daemon princes mainly supported the rest of my army providing valuable auras, psychic defense and chip damage with smite, the chariots didn't really accomplish much in combat killing a few genestealers in the first unit I killed, and the daemon princes did pretty much the same except one took down his hive crone. (The mission was the relic which I took since the seekers prevented him from contesting it)

Supreme command (528)
x1 daemon prince (Talons)
x1 Herald of slaanesh on seeker chariot
x1 Herald of slaanesh on seeker chariot
x1 Herald of slaanesh on seeker chariot

Battalion (926)
x1 Masque of slaanesh
x1 daemon prince (Talons)
x30 Daemonettes (Instruments)
x30 Daemonettes (Instruments)
x12 Daemonettes

Outrider (1046)
x1 Herald of slaanesh on seeker chariot
x20 seekers (instruments)
x10 seekers (instruments)
x10 seekers (instruments)
x1 seeker chariot
x1 seeker chariot


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/03 01:57:26


Post by: Sokhar


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions for good/cheap "Counts-as" Brimstone Horrors?

I just got a huge lot of Daemons and can finally start experimenting, but of course, the lot had zero Brimstones, but plenty of Pinks/Blues. I can't even imagine buying 9+ boxes of Blues, just to get a large number of the little-guys.


Thought about just putting Pinks/Blues on the table and saying "These are all Brimstone Horrors"?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/03 01:58:22


Post by: Rydria


Have you considered making your own brimstone horrors with green stuff ?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/03 05:31:35


Post by: Captyn_Bob


I feel like going crazy on brimstones now will just be annoying when the codex drops in a couple on months and they become awful.
(I used ork and goblin heads with little arms , legs and flames sculpted on)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/03 14:21:10


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


Sokhar wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Anyone have any suggestions for good/cheap "Counts-as" Brimstone Horrors?

I just got a huge lot of Daemons and can finally start experimenting, but of course, the lot had zero Brimstones, but plenty of Pinks/Blues. I can't even imagine buying 9+ boxes of Blues, just to get a large number of the little-guys.


Thought about just putting Pinks/Blues on the table and saying "These are all Brimstone Horrors"?


I would love to, but I play in a LOT of ITC events, and while they're generous abouts "counts-as" (if I were to bring in a cool 3rd party model, etc...) they really frown on outright calling one GW model a different one.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 03:00:13


Post by: anticitizen013


NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Skull Pass Night Goblins painted in Tzeentchian colors?



Hmmm... I do own, about 60 of those... tempting, though I worry tournament organizers would cry fowl. Anything third-party?

This should help: https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=696


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 03:06:20


Post by: Eldarain


I could see a FAQ coming down restricting Brimstones to splitting only. With the flyer ruling they've shown they can get creative to curb abuse.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 03:57:38


Post by: Cephalobeard


Have my list finalized for my RTT on Saturday.

Changeling, 9 Lords, 3 Disc Heralds, 3 Giant Spawn, 3x 1 blue 19 brimstones, 1x 1 Blue 17 Brimstones, 8 Exalted Flamers.

365pts for Summoning.

Depending on the opponent, it'll either be 2 Foot Herald's +20-30 Horrors, 50+ Horrors, Flamers/Exalted Flamers, etc.

Feeling good about the overall make up, and with 9 Malefic Lords as well as 3 Discs, I'll be able to cover ground with all sorts of smites.

[Thumb - IMG_20170803_212839.jpg]


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 13:55:52


Post by: spaceclown


Cephalobeard wrote: Have my list finalized for my RTT on Saturday.

Changeling, 9 Lords, 3 Disc Heralds, 3 Giant Spawn, 3x 1 blue 19 brimstones, 1x 1 Blue 17 Brimstones, 8 Exalted Flamers.

365pts for Summoning.

Depending on the opponent, it'll either be 2 Foot Herald's +20-30 Horrors, 50+ Horrors, Flamers/Exalted Flamers, etc.

Feeling good about the overall make up, and with 9 Malefic Lords as well as 3 Discs, I'll be able to cover ground with all sorts of smites.


What's your strategy with the summoning? Get a Herald in range for smite, and on turn 2 summon flamers for a turn 3 effectiveness?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 14:08:24


Post by: Cephalobeard


spaceclown wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote: Have my list finalized for my RTT on Saturday.

Changeling, 9 Lords, 3 Disc Heralds, 3 Giant Spawn, 3x 1 blue 19 brimstones, 1x 1 Blue 17 Brimstones, 8 Exalted Flamers.

365pts for Summoning.

Depending on the opponent, it'll either be 2 Foot Herald's +20-30 Horrors, 50+ Horrors, Flamers/Exalted Flamers, etc.

Feeling good about the overall make up, and with 9 Malefic Lords as well as 3 Discs, I'll be able to cover ground with all sorts of smites.


What's your strategy with the summoning? Get a Herald in range for smite, and on turn 2 summon flamers for a turn 3 effectiveness?


Nope! Much simpler. Deploy a Malefic Lord further up, as he isn't Tzeentch I don't need to care about him being near the changeling, and I summon a blob of horrors or a herald just within his 12", creating either a forward wall of horrors, or as the Heralds have staves a 36" range smite. If I know I can't move a lord to be within range for his 18" Smite, I just summon in a herald to get it off.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 15:57:49


Post by: CrownAxe


What mark are you giving the Giant Spawn? Tzeentch or Nurgle?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 16:03:39


Post by: Cephalobeard


Tzeentch. I play very aggressively, so keeping them within 9" of the Changeling won't be too different, and as long as they are near him being Tzeentch edges out Nurgle.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 16:31:29


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


 anticitizen013 wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Skull Pass Night Goblins painted in Tzeentchian colors?



Hmmm... I do own, about 60 of those... tempting, though I worry tournament organizers would cry fowl. Anything third-party?

This should help: https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=696


My hero! Much thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarain wrote:
I could see a FAQ coming down restricting Brimstones to splitting only. With the flyer ruling they've shown they can get creative to curb abuse.


I could just see them becoming 3pts, versus 2pts... I mean... in a meta where Conscript spam is a mandatory inclusion to almost any Imperium army, I can't see Brimstones being utterly stomped... especially when for as useful as they are, NO ONE is winning tournaments with them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 16:35:42


Post by: stewe128


With all this tzeentch daemon talk. Is there anyway to make Nurgle Daemons competitive? I'm thinkin' bloat drones, giant chaos spawns, epidemius, and daemon princes but I'm not too sure. Just curious I know tzeentch right now is stronger, but IMO Nurgle is the runner up. How do we get Nurgle Daemons to a top tier level?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 16:40:44


Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim


stewe128 wrote:
With all this tzeentch daemon talk. Is there anyway to make Nurgle Daemons competitive? I'm thinkin' bloat drones, giant chaos spawns, epidemius, and daemon princes but I'm not too sure. Just curious I know tzeentch right now is stronger, but IMO Nurgle is the runner up. How do we get Nurgle Daemons to a top tier level?


I know you won't see him rocking top tournaments or anything, but I am a fan of Scabeiathrax, and he does help make other Nurgle Daemons better as well. Loads of Plague Bearers, Plague Drones, Scaby, a couple Nurgle DP's, can make a decent enough list.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 16:41:15


Post by: Cephalobeard


Labmouse has had good luck with running as nurgle. Check out his previous comments here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Skull Pass Night Goblins painted in Tzeentchian colors?



Hmmm... I do own, about 60 of those... tempting, though I worry tournament organizers would cry fowl. Anything third-party?

This should help: https://puppetswar.eu/product.php?id_product=696


My hero! Much thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarain wrote:
I could see a FAQ coming down restricting Brimstones to splitting only. With the flyer ruling they've shown they can get creative to curb abuse.


I could just see them becoming 3pts, versus 2pts... I mean... in a meta where Conscript spam is a mandatory inclusion to almost any Imperium army, I can't see Brimstones being utterly stomped... especially when for as useful as they are, NO ONE is winning tournaments with them.


I also agree with you. Brimstones are, unfortunately, suffering from what Tau suffered from in 7th. A perception issue.

As they're cheap and resilient, they appear to be far more abusive and oppressive than they are.

In reality they're a cheap horde unit that crumples to morale, but people view them as a shield that doesn't yield and smites you for d6 wounds a turn.

Oh well.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 17:37:59


Post by: arhurt


I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but I couldn't find an answer anywhere.

1) RAW, can I summon a named, unique character via Summoning Ritual, even if said character is already on my list?
2) RAW, can I summon a named, unique character via Summoning Ritual, if he is on my list and has been previously slain in combat?

I could see myself summoning a pocket changeling on occasion!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 17:42:10


Post by: Cephalobeard


No to both.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 17:44:20


Post by: Captyn_Bob


"Only one of this model may be included in your army"
Definitely rules out 1. 2 is a bit more grey.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/04 17:50:26


Post by: arhurt


Captyn_Bob wrote:
"Only one of this model may be included in your army"
Definitely rules out 1. 2 is a bit more grey.


Duh... I don't know why I had "Only one of this model may be included in your list" on my head.

I'd say that one rules out both, as the slain model has been slain, and you can't summon it since it has, well, been slain. You'd need to have a second model that has not been slain, which is not possible for these unique characters.

Thanks, I think this pretty much sums it up for me.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 02:57:26


Post by: rvd1ofakind


stewe128 wrote:
With all this tzeentch daemon talk. Is there anyway to make Nurgle Daemons competitive? I'm thinkin' bloat drones, giant chaos spawns, epidemius, and daemon princes but I'm not too sure. Just curious I know tzeentch right now is stronger, but IMO Nurgle is the runner up. How do we get Nurgle Daemons to a top tier level?


A high placing nurgle list has nurglings, plaguebearers, scabby, epidemius, herald, malefic lords, 600 summoning pts. No idea what he was summoning tho :p

@Cephalobeard Giff feedback on Giant Chaos Spawn when you try it. So I know whether to buy some or not ^.^

Update: he was summoning Plague toads (and I assume something else?)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 03:12:47


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Is the warp...sorry, wrong thread


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 03:30:43


Post by: spaceclown



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarain wrote:
I could see a FAQ coming down restricting Brimstones to splitting only. With the flyer ruling they've shown they can get creative to curb abuse.



I could just see them becoming 3pts, versus 2pts... I mean... in a meta where Conscript spam is a mandatory inclusion to almost any Imperium army, I can't see Brimstones being utterly stomped... especially when for as useful as they are, NO ONE is winning tournaments with


You got that right


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 04:10:43


Post by: ZergSmasher


So, Exalted Flamers. They seem really good, but where in the world do you get the models for them other than paying $30 minimum (on eBay for instance) for a Burning Chariot kit? Is there something that would make a good "counts-as" model for them? Or maybe if I don't run any regular Flamers I could use those models as Exalted Flamers?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 06:08:49


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Chaos marine dex has demons in it.
Some earlu info from review screengrabs.
Bloodletter, Plaguebearer, Daemonette are 7pts

Horrors,
Blues 5, Brim 3, Pinks 8

Horror smite only does 1 wound.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 07:35:52


Post by: CrownAxe


Captyn_Bob wrote:
Chaos marine dex has demons in it.
Some earlu info from review screengrabs.
Bloodletter, Plaguebearer, Daemonette are 7pts

Horrors,
Blues 5, Brim 3, Pinks 8

Horror smite only does 1 wound.
Do horrors cast on 2d6 now?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 12:56:45


Post by: Cephalobeard


Well, I'm playing Daemons, not CSM. I won't be buying that book. I can't imagine I'll be forced to use that version of horrors for my army from an entirely different codex. Who knows, I guess?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 15:06:44


Post by: labmouse42


I watched the video below and saw a few nice takeaways for daemons



* Daemons (daemonettes, 'letters, plague bearers, horrors) can be taken as troops in a 'chaos space marines' detachment.
* You can take a daemon prince as your HQ and give him a relic. Daemon prince with murder sword? Yes, please.
* The cost of the troops dropped. Plaguebears, letters and daemonettes seemed to all drop to 7 points each. That's quite a nice buff.
* Icons and Instruments seemed to be the same
* The daemon troops don't come with the same keywords as the CSM, so you can't cast warptime on them.
* It seems they also cancel the <legion> effect if you take them in a CSM force. The intent was to make a detachment have hte same legion. This will likely get FAQ'ed if I read it wrong.

Overall, this a nice buff to daemon armies. There might need to be some shuffling done to make this work, such as taking a DP or a sorcerer


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 15:58:25


Post by: CrownAxe


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, I'm playing Daemons, not CSM. I won't be buying that book. I can't imagine I'll be forced to use that version of horrors for my army from an entirely different codex. Who knows, I guess?
GW already said in regards to the SM codex that you are expected to use the most recent rules


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 19:57:02


Post by: GreaterGood?


 CrownAxe wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, I'm playing Daemons, not CSM. I won't be buying that book. I can't imagine I'll be forced to use that version of horrors for my army from an entirely different codex. Who knows, I guess?
GW already said in regards to the SM codex that you are expected to use the most recent rules


But that's for whole different armies right? I doubt daemons index becomes obsolete because CSM has daemon choices.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/05 16:42:41


Post by: CrownAxe


 GreaterGood? wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, I'm playing Daemons, not CSM. I won't be buying that book. I can't imagine I'll be forced to use that version of horrors for my army from an entirely different codex. Who knows, I guess?
GW already said in regards to the SM codex that you are expected to use the most recent rules


But that's for whole different armies right? I doubt daemons index becomes obsolete because CSM has daemon choices.
No it's by unit because the SM index also dropped some unit options that GW also says you can still use


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 00:58:52


Post by: Cephalobeard


 CrownAxe wrote:
 GreaterGood? wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Well, I'm playing Daemons, not CSM. I won't be buying that book. I can't imagine I'll be forced to use that version of horrors for my army from an entirely different codex. Who knows, I guess?
GW already said in regards to the SM codex that you are expected to use the most recent rules


But that's for whole different armies right? I doubt daemons index becomes obsolete because CSM has daemon choices.
No it's by unit because the SM index also dropped some unit options that GW also says you can still use


Please tell me which Space Marine units from non-space Marine factions were in the codex that we're updated, and people are forced to use now in their non-space Marine armies.

I will happily wait for that response if I am wrong.

-----

In regards to my RTT Today, as requested.

Game one, I play against Guilliman with Predators/Some Primaris/other units.

I advance, inexorably, into him. Takes 1-2 rounds to get within actual range to do anything. Giant Spawn literally never make it into combat as he castles in with a gun line. He uses the new Stratagem and drops and orbital bombardment into me, hits like 6 characters for 1-3 mortal wounds. Oddly brutal.

Eventually, around turn 2-3 I'm in range, and proceed to delete his army. Tabled turn 4, crushing victory.

Round 2 is against Magnus/Thousand sons w/ horrors and changeling. I sieze, advance 5 psykers up a building so their only LoS target is Magnus, and smite him to half. Long story short, Magnus dies turn 2 after killing 3 models, two giant spawn get to nearly 20+ wounds, and I table him nearly completely on turn 3.

Round 3 is against space wolves, lots of missiles and wulfen in drop pods. One of the space wolf flyers, 6 bikes and the WL/5 guys in the flyer all move up, he tries to blow up a Giant Spawn, drops it to 3 wounds. I fire back, wipe the plane, the WL, all 5 and all 6 bikes. First blood, warlord, etc. Table him turn 4.

Total victory. Full points. Take first.

Giant spawn are good if they can do things, not great if they can't, but wonderful bullet sponges regardless. List was very strong (it's 1-2 pages behind) and my opponents never killed more than 3-400pts of my models.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 04:14:09


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Ty for the reports but

 Cephalobeard wrote:

I sieze, advance 5 psykers up a building so their only LoS target is Magnus, and smite him to half.


kill me (although that was smart from you)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/12 12:37:05


Post by: Cephalobeard


I knew you'd love that part.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 14:41:20


Post by: spaceclown


 Cephalobeard wrote:
I knew you'd love that part.


What was your list? Not sure if you've posted it here or not


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 14:45:44


Post by: Cephalobeard


It's 1-2 pages behind this one. It's posted in with a photo, can't miss it

Edit: It's also at the top of this page.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 16:18:35


Post by: rvd1ofakind


The frontline guys(Aka Pablo in his podcast) are acknowledging that Daemons will be in a terrible state when Brimstones are nerfed which is probably why they aren't nerfed that much already. They will likelly buff all other daemons before nerfing them completely. The other army they talked about was AdMech. Guys... Guess what armies I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaave... Hope the buffs are pretty big. I'm talking 200 pts BT, 100 pts Soul Grinder and so on


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 16:33:22


Post by: Cephalobeard


Brimstones, while useful, are hardly an essential in my army. I will be just as content taking blues that split if necessary.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 16:42:48


Post by: rvd1ofakind


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Brimstones, while useful, are hardly an essential in my army. I will be just as content taking blues that split if necessary.
Blues got nerfed as well so...

Like, do you enjoy the way you play? Do you think others enjoy having only 1 target available to them until turn 3 or so - brimstones?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 16:59:28


Post by: Cephalobeard


The smite change is largely inconsequential, it doesn't matter.

Are you asking if my opponents are having fun shooting at horrors because every other model in my army is a character? Because that has nothing to do with horrors, it has everything to do with characters.

I enjoy my army greatly, and my opponents certainly get frustrated, but they're not frustrated with BRIMSTONES, they're frustrated that I don't present a single viable target for their shooting. Because there isn't one. Ever model is sub 100pts and they gain no immediate benefit trying to kill one over the other.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 17:09:27


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Ok, the army isn't about horrors. Bam, they're gone. All you have left is characters (and 1 or 2 characters more to compensate for the loss of brimstones).

And the opponents are frustrated and that's a BAD thing. All daemon troops should cost at least 7 pts since you can't punch through them due to invul.

Like, wouldn't you like it much more if all the other units were great. Screamers would move really fast and do an insane amount of damage and the "fly-over" ability wouldn't be the garbage it is now. For example


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 17:19:40


Post by: Ecdain


 Cephalobeard wrote:
spaceclown wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote: Have my list finalized for my RTT on Saturday.

Changeling, 9 Lords, 3 Disc Heralds, 3 Giant Spawn, 3x 1 blue 19 brimstones, 1x 1 Blue 17 Brimstones, 8 Exalted Flamers.

365pts for Summoning.

Depending on the opponent, it'll either be 2 Foot Herald's +20-30 Horrors, 50+ Horrors, Flamers/Exalted Flamers, etc.

Feeling good about the overall make up, and with 9 Malefic Lords as well as 3 Discs, I'll be able to cover ground with all sorts of smites.


What's your strategy with the summoning? Get a Herald in range for smite, and on turn 2 summon flamers for a turn 3 effectiveness?


Nope! Much simpler. Deploy a Malefic Lord further up, as he isn't Tzeentch I don't need to care about him being near the changeling, and I summon a blob of horrors or a herald just within his 12", creating either a forward wall of horrors, or as the Heralds have staves a 36" range smite. If I know I can't move a lord to be within range for his 18" Smite, I just summon in a herald to get it off.


I hate to burst your bubble as I play a near identical list. But heralds staff increases their smite range to 24", not 36"(that's kairos only, regular Lord of changes have 30"). Still longer range so your point is still mostly valid. Just keep in mind it's not 36" herald smite range.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 17:25:28


Post by: Cephalobeard


Ecdain wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
spaceclown wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote: Have my list finalized for my RTT on Saturday.

Changeling, 9 Lords, 3 Disc Heralds, 3 Giant Spawn, 3x 1 blue 19 brimstones, 1x 1 Blue 17 Brimstones, 8 Exalted Flamers.

365pts for Summoning.

Depending on the opponent, it'll either be 2 Foot Herald's +20-30 Horrors, 50+ Horrors, Flamers/Exalted Flamers, etc.

Feeling good about the overall make up, and with 9 Malefic Lords as well as 3 Discs, I'll be able to cover ground with all sorts of smites.


What's your strategy with the summoning? Get a Herald in range for smite, and on turn 2 summon flamers for a turn 3 effectiveness?


Nope! Much simpler. Deploy a Malefic Lord further up, as he isn't Tzeentch I don't need to care about him being near the changeling, and I summon a blob of horrors or a herald just within his 12", creating either a forward wall of horrors, or as the Heralds have staves a 36" range smite. If I know I can't move a lord to be within range for his 18" Smite, I just summon in a herald to get it off.


I hate to burst your bubble as I play a near identical list. But heralds staff increases their smite range to 24", not 36"(that's kairos only, regular Lord of changes have 30"). Still longer range so your point is still mostly valid. Just keep in mind it's not 36" herald smite range.


No bubble bursted. They have a THREAT RANGE of 36".

12" Move, 24" smite.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ok, the army isn't about horrors. Bam, they're gone. All you have left is characters (and 1 or 2 characters more to compensate for the loss of brimstones).

And the opponents are frustrated and that's a BAD thing. All daemon troops should cost at least 7 pts since you can't punch through them due to invul.

Like, wouldn't you like it much more if all the other units were great. Screamers would move really fast and do an insane amount of damage and the "fly-over" ability wouldn't be the garbage it is now. For example


My being content with how my army is now is entirely separate from wanting to see the rest of my choices be good. I simply don't agree the answer to make the others better is to improve them and reduce the ones I AM enjoying.

You want to make Pinks cost 7ppm and give me split for free at a 1:1:1 ratio and I'll happily take what you're suggesting. Otherwise, GW made this mess with split and they aren't fixing the issue. There's zero reason to use pinks. Period. They're awful.

I get it, you hate Brimstones. That doesn't mean they're carrying MY style of army, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell, I'll even add this. If I had another troop choice, I'd use it just to prove a point. I guarantee I'd still be undefeated with my list if I was using cultists or tzaangors.

I welcome any change they make to horrors, because it changes nothing in regards to how I play. They're literally just bodies.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 17:47:38


Post by: rvd1ofakind


I don't hate Brimstones. I hate buckets of cheap expendable troops that are only there to die: brimstones, blues, vanilla cultists, conscripts. There is no fun or strategy to only have 1 target to shoot. Tell me, what can your opponents do against that with a TAC list? Nothing. Now immagine, you face a 75% sniper list. You'd be screwed, what could you do? Nothing. (and if you could still win, that'd be even worse since you can't lose even against your main counter)

This is not what I want of the meta game. This rock-paper-scissors gak is dumb.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 17:50:11


Post by: Cephalobeard


Army styles will exist.

Counters to those will exist.

Not every army will be a TAC.

I can't think of any game like that, and quite honestly it sounds very boring. I don't want to endlessly move the same models 6" forward while my opponent moves 6" forward and we each shoot the same guns.

I loved that I played 3 very different styles of armies. I loved knowing the Ork player with 200+ boys playing next to me had an army that was scary to mine.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 17:54:59


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Armies can have their styles. But the styles shouldn't be so gamewarping as to force a Rock-Paper-Scissors metagame. DO you like games 80% predetermined because of the opponent you drew or because you didn't go first? Is this the game you want 40k to be?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right now you can easily call how a big majority of games will end after turn 1. And that's not good.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 18:04:53


Post by: GreaterGood?


So, with Csm dropping the points of lesser daemons, how exactly is that going to work with the index? Take a detachment of Csm for the leaders? And couldn't you still take brimstone s in a daemon index list? Woyldnt this make Csm better at daemons than daemons?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 18:07:57


Post by: rvd1ofakind


You can take CSM stuff in your detachment of daemons and lose nothing. Basically it just reduced their cost. Forget about the CSM part


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 18:12:28


Post by: Lord Commissar


What do you guys suggest using for the giant chaos spawn model?

inb4 the 55 pound Giant chaos spawn FW model.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 18:20:16


Post by: Cephalobeard


I use Mutaliths. They're $85 each.

Rvd, I'm ceding the argument. We don't and won't agree.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 18:39:55


Post by: Ecdain


 Lord Commissar wrote:
What do you guys suggest using for the giant chaos spawn model?

inb4 the 55 pound Giant chaos spawn FW model.


Mutalith beasts are best but are currently out of stock online and unsure when they restocking. I ran into the same problem and found a great counts as in the form of morbidex twiceborn(nurgle rotbringers from AoS). I took the rider off and it was great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
I use Mutaliths. They're $85 each.

Rvd, I'm ceding the argument. We don't and won't agree.


I run a near identical list to yours and am also undefeated. I get this argument a LOT from the same people in tourney's. Noone likes to lose, it's that simple. They will always complain about how they lost no matter what it is. Best to ignore and move on.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 18:46:41


Post by: Cephalobeard


Ecdain wrote:
 Lord Commissar wrote:
What do you guys suggest using for the giant chaos spawn model?

inb4 the 55 pound Giant chaos spawn FW model.


Mutalith beasts are best but are currently out of stock online and unsure when they restocking. I ran into the same problem and found a great counts as in the form of morbidex twiceborn(nurgle rotbringers from AoS). I took the rider off and it was great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
I use Mutaliths. They're $85 each.

Rvd, I'm ceding the argument. We don't and won't agree.


I run a near identical list to yours and am also undefeated. I get this argument a LOT from the same people in tourney's. Noone likes to lose, it's that simple. They will always complain about how they lost no matter what it is. Best to ignore and move on.


Yeah. Not super worried about it. My list IS difficult to beat, but that's the point. I don't want to make a list that's easy to beat.

I just don't like the assertion that I'm being carried by a single unit, when I'm using a variety of units and my list is different than most popular Daemon lists, let alone abusing horrors for some kind of benefit.

That being said, I'm strongly considering doing up a "Spawn Wrangler" list with The Changeling traveling with 3-6 Giant Spawn and a Daemon Prince, and just advancing into the opponent with the huge, regenerating, very difficult to hit/wound beasts that want to do 12 attacks each in melee.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 20:55:28


Post by: Darksider


I don't think it's because they want an easy win, it's more that nobody want to play against armies were you see no land, regardless of what you do.

It's frustrating to play against hordes of 4++ 2 (or now 3) point cheap models, that give a feth if they die.

Oh you shoot half your army in my screen of Brims or Conscripts, doesn't matter, another 200 brims (consripts etc) are waiting to get killed. Meanwhile remove everything you have, because i am killing it with Mortal wounds and volumes of high strength shooting.


Think that's exactly the point, why so many people are raging about this.

It's one thing to fight against an army and think you can achiev something even when you loose in the end. But fighting against a horde of bulletsponges with untargetable dudes behind is kinda frustrating.


Only my point of view. Never will play such a list, but i also won't refuse to play against it at a tournament.

Personal tipp, don't play to win at all cost it destroys the fun you have while playing. And don't invest in FOTM Builds .


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 21:27:18


Post by: Cephalobeard


Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 22:34:45


Post by: TheNightWillEnd


I get that Tzeench is the new hotness and Nurgle and Slaanesh each have useful units to sprinkle in, but I have a monotheist Khorne army that I am trying to figure out how to make work. Very interested to hear other people's experiences so far.

What I have is about 35 bloodletters, skulltaker, 6 'crushers, a cannon, a herald on juggie, winged DP, 10 hounds, DV helbrute, possessed and a squad of terminators.

Obviously, the main idea is to get the termies as deep on their side as possible, hopefully kill something important and distract the enemy from mowing down all of my glass daemons.

My question is how many of those 'crushers and 'letters should I hold back for future summons? Or should I just deploy all and plan to summon replacements from my dead pool?

Should I blob up the 'letters to the max for bonuses or go MSU for survivability?

Also, how screwed am I in general for sticking to Khorne only?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 22:37:30


Post by: Cephalobeard


Khornes in a really bad place right now. I can't help much, sorry friend. Good luck.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 23:34:54


Post by: Rydria


 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I get that Tzeench is the new hotness and Nurgle and Slaanesh each have useful units to sprinkle in, but I have a monotheist Khorne army that I am trying to figure out how to make work. Very interested to hear other people's experiences so far.

What I have is about 35 bloodletters, skulltaker, 6 'crushers, a cannon, a herald on juggie, winged DP, 10 hounds, DV helbrute, possessed and a squad of terminators.

Obviously, the main idea is to get the termies as deep on their side as possible, hopefully kill something important and distract the enemy from mowing down all of my glass daemons.

My question is how many of those 'crushers and 'letters should I hold back for future summons? Or should I just deploy all and plan to summon replacements from my dead pool?

Should I blob up the 'letters to the max for bonuses or go MSU for survivability?

Also, how screwed am I in general for sticking to Khorne only?
I play mono slaanesh but we have very similar playstyles we both want to get into close combat fast where we should due to our superior CQC abilities win, the main problem is we need to mitigate loses taken on our large units of lesser daemons so they can arrive with enough bodies to massacre the opposition.

A really good unit for this will be chaos bikers with chaos renegade legion trait for advance and charge, give them an icon of wrath and they have a first turn threat range of 22 - 32 inches, helldrakes can also fill this niche due to there 30 inch movement.

Alternatively you can use terminators in this role drop in a decent sized number 9 inch away even if they fail there charge your opponent needs to deal with them as they are a more pressing issue than the horde of bloodletters advancing up the board.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/06 23:38:06


Post by: str00dles1


 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
I get that Tzeench is the new hotness and Nurgle and Slaanesh each have useful units to sprinkle in, but I have a monotheist Khorne army that I am trying to figure out how to make work. Very interested to hear other people's experiences so far.

What I have is about 35 bloodletters, skulltaker, 6 'crushers, a cannon, a herald on juggie, winged DP, 10 hounds, DV helbrute, possessed and a squad of terminators.

Obviously, the main idea is to get the termies as deep on their side as possible, hopefully kill something important and distract the enemy from mowing down all of my glass daemons.

My question is how many of those 'crushers and 'letters should I hold back for future summons? Or should I just deploy all and plan to summon replacements from my dead pool?

Should I blob up the 'letters to the max for bonuses or go MSU for survivability?

Also, how screwed am I in general for sticking to Khorne only?


I have mono Khorne. It plain sucks, as of writing this. Perhaps in the codex, since the world eaters get a buff ( and hopefully don't increase in cost) it will be better. The issue is its very anti khorne goals when your leader cant move to summon, yet your herald wants to rush in and murderface (or any other characters). Or you throw out any sort of fluff and take Sorcs to cast warptime or other generic psyker spells on your own troops to get in there. Though, you can go the AoS route and call them blood priests to give them "blood magic".

What I will try is Zerkers in a rhino and raider with deamon support and hopefully enough stuff to make it to the enemy before dying. It failed a few times already but we will see.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 02:44:42


Post by: TheNightWillEnd


Cool, thanks for the suggestions all! I think I'm going to wait for the codex to drop before buying or selling anything. Will play around in the meantime and see what happens.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 02:50:58


Post by: rvd1ofakind


@sillypeoplewithspam It has nothing to do with winning or losing. You lose games all the time. It has everything to do with wasting someone else's time because he can't win the game to begin with.
What sounds more fun: "ok, I will shoot this at that, then this at that and hm... how do I split them to make those die to morale or make him burn CP....hm.. actually that other guy is not threatning to me, but he is next to an objective... can I survive this assault if I shoot some at that guy..." OR "shooting your brimstones, hit, wound, save, shooting your brimstones, hit wound save"x20 + "ok, this is smite number 12, do you wanna deny,no, ok smite, d3 wounds, ok smite number 13, do you wanna deny, no, ok, d3 wounds, smite number 14..."

Also:
"Per GW (and exactly the same in AoS), the most recent version of any datasheet is the one you use. So, the new Brimstone datasheet trumps that used in the Index, and the same goes for any other duplicate datasheet." - Reece.
And he's confirmed it with GW
Source: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/06/new-codexes-up-for-pre-order-chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights/#comments




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Cool, thanks for the suggestions all! I think I'm going to wait for the codex to drop before buying or selling anything. Will play around in the meantime and see what happens.


I find mono-khorne daemon army impossible to win with at the moment in a competitive setting. However, the bloody mailman (a dumb name I made up) is a pretty good idea. Use Nurgle(for example since they are tough) to walk down the field and have a skulltaker/khorne herald within them. He summons letters (4/8 PL is easy to roll with 3 dice. Even 12 isn't unlikelly) They charge with the instrument and obliterate what they touch as they are, as of now the best melee unit in the game damage per point. For comparison: genestealers: 0.11 letters 0,139. Also letters have more AP. At 7 pts per dude, they're preeeeeeeeeetty good.

Alternativelly you can just take Malefic Lords instead and summon whatever is necessary: daemonettes against low armour, toughness hordes and letters vs everything else. And you think for yourself if you should summon a herald by comparing the str vs toughness of your target.

full review of Khorne Daemons here https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/05/chapter-tactics-37-bao-results-and-meta-analysis-w-bao-champ-brandon-grant/#comment-549942


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 03:35:02


Post by: vladicov


I have a pretty huge khorne army myself and I can attest... Its pretty bad. 7pt letters is a great start, but now it really high lights how bad 20pt fleshounds and 340 point thirsters are.

A sad part is skarbrands auras would actually make the army somewhat viable but alas his 16 wounds dooms him in any game that's not a joke. It's like a cruel joke in the end. Imagine if you had Morale immunity, +1a on all your squads and the enemy actually had to deal with your army instead of just Las cannon to the face of the big one.

The part that kills me with khorne is they had a decent system with blood tithe in seventh that Gw just silently squatted... While keeping the ynnarri meta faction.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 08:26:45


Post by: smegma_crunch


I've been doing khorne + csm and haven't had too much trouble yet (haven't played competitively yet though). I run DP, crushers, slaughterers, berzerkers, herald, letters, cultists and forgefiend/maulerfied. I figure if I have enough scary crap charging at you at least some of the scary crap will stick. DP spam seems like it could be really fun too.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 09:45:31


Post by: Darksider


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.



Sorry didn't want that you think i am mean about you playing brimstones. I have no problems playing against that kind of list as i said before. Only wanted to show that it's kinda frustrating for some people to play against tides of cheap models.





Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 11:07:16


Post by: Cephalobeard


 Darksider wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.


Sorry didn't want that you think i am mean about you playing brimstones. I have no problems playing against that kind of list as i said before. Only wanted to show that it's kinda frustrating for some people to play against tides of cheap models.





Not bothered at all. I'm used to rvd at least providing a contrary opinion to literally everything anyone else says for the last 10+ pages, lol

I was also being genuine. I firmly believe the brimstone issue is like tau in 7th. It's a perception issue. You FEEL and Think they're worse than they are.

Again, for the nth time, I would happily use any other troop if I had them, but they're my only choice. I wish I had other choices.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 14:12:47


Post by: orsonn


smegma_crunch wrote:
I've been doing khorne + csm and haven't had too much trouble yet (haven't played competitively yet though). I run DP, crushers, slaughterers, berzerkers, herald, letters, cultists and forgefiend/maulerfied. I figure if I have enough scary crap charging at you at least some of the scary crap will stick. DP spam seems like it could be really fun too.


I made the same decision, started with mono-Khorne daemons, but quickly added Berzerkers and Warp Talons to my list. I'm using daemons for my HQ slots - at the moment trying Be'Lakor to cast warptime on my Berzerkers/Warp Talons, and a Herald on Juggernaut to buff all my bloodletters.

I found the Bloodletters summoning very effective to destroy entire units. I also deep strike Warp Talons to distract my opponent while running my Berzerkers. I just find the zerkers very slow, so I might add Rhinos to the mix and bring less Bloodletters, but at that point it's becoming more a CSM than a daemon army...

Bloodcrushers are also great, hitting hard, but slow and expensive.

My strategy entirely relies on running as fast as possible, distract my opponent from shooting my slow units, and hope that I can reach close combat turn 2 with enough units to make the difference. I'll try my Bloodthirster soon to see how he's doing.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 14:33:58


Post by: vladicov


I ran my bloodthirster a few times and I felt for non competitive games he's great, but with the current meta you can't really play him in a good list.

Let me explain :

Khorne army is gonna get shot to hell everytime. To mitigate this, you need to have your opponent wasting things like Las cannons on your low points units who hopefully can make some saves. As soon as you bring 1 10+ wound model, your opponent now can easily decide to pump all they're high powered long range shooting into him. Yes, they might not kill him, but putting wounds on big targets is what these weapons excel at. to put it in perspective, you allow the opponents 8 Las cannons / dark lances / whatever to kill a 340pt chunk of your army, instead of 56 points of bloodletters.

I've had this too if I try to run helldrakes and thirsters with demons. bringing those big targetable units actually solved problems for the enemy. If you follow all the brim hate, it's centred around denying your opponent good shooting targets.

Seriously though, try to get a friendly game and bring the insensate rage dude. Putting 30+ wounds on a knight in the fight phase is something every khorne player needs to experience one time.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 17:48:31


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Cephalobeard wrote:
 Darksider wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Don't know what to tell you, folks. Brimstones die. In numbers. They melt to morale and melee, in my experience.

You're going to be angry about the unit either way, so continuing any counter point to "ARRGHH BRIMSTONES" is just screaming into the Void.

GW has already "nerfed" them once, and will likely do it again.

I, genuinely, wish I had another troop choice. Because I'd still do just as well as I have been.


Sorry didn't want that you think i am mean about you playing brimstones. I have no problems playing against that kind of list as i said before. Only wanted to show that it's kinda frustrating for some people to play against tides of cheap models.





Not bothered at all. I'm used to rvd at least providing a contrary opinion to literally everything anyone else says for the last 10+ pages, lol

I was also being genuine. I firmly believe the brimstone issue is like tau in 7th. It's a perception issue. You FEEL and Think they're worse than they are.

Again, for the nth time, I would happily use any other troop if I had them, but they're my only choice. I wish I had other choices.


As support, I crushed a brimstone spam+daemon princes list the other day through sheer force of morale losses after a Containment Breach result. Brimstones are definitely not as bad as Conscripts, that's for sure.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 18:41:07


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Well at least the Chaos Daemon codex is predicted to be the biggest boost to an army yet by one of the testers.

The easiest thing to guess is 1/2 CP for deepstrike. Now imagine all those squishy slow but harditting deamons. Oh wait, they're on the opponents face turn one. Suddenly almost every problem CD had is gone because of how powerful a unit of 30 bloodletters/daemonettes or (if allowed) bloodthirster, skarbrand can be if they start 9'' from your opponent.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 18:46:30


Post by: Cephalobeard


Khorne needs the deep strike back more than anyone. It's bad.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 19:48:25


Post by: ochobits


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Khorne needs the deep strike back more than anyone. It's bad.


Agree. I like the idea of mixing Daemons and CSM but it is a shame that people can't play a competitive mono-khorne list. Actually, on last Frontline Gaming podcast the winner of BOA said that Daemons are probably the worst army on 8th - excluding brimstone's spam.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/07 23:50:15


Post by: Ix_Tab


 Cephalobeard wrote:
The smite change is largely inconsequential, it doesn't matter.

Are you asking if my opponents are having fun shooting at horrors because every other model in my army is a character? Because that has nothing to do with horrors, it has everything to do with characters.

I enjoy my army greatly, and my opponents certainly get frustrated, but they're not frustrated with BRIMSTONES, they're frustrated that I don't present a single viable target for their shooting. Because there isn't one. Ever model is sub 100pts and they gain no immediate benefit trying to kill one over the other.


yes the frustration may largely result from you playing a skew and one which is perhaps less readily countered than other skews in 8th but the 2 point Brimstones are rather good as are the exalted flamers. Lets ignore those and focus on the one thing which really puts the other Gods in Tzeentch's shadow imo which is the changeling, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Khorne have nothing of comparable buffing power and it seems a little over the top.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/08 00:02:23


Post by: Rydria


Ix_Tab wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
The smite change is largely inconsequential, it doesn't matter.

Are you asking if my opponents are having fun shooting at horrors because every other model in my army is a character? Because that has nothing to do with horrors, it has everything to do with characters.

I enjoy my army greatly, and my opponents certainly get frustrated, but they're not frustrated with BRIMSTONES, they're frustrated that I don't present a single viable target for their shooting. Because there isn't one. Ever model is sub 100pts and they gain no immediate benefit trying to kill one over the other.


yes the frustration may largely result from you playing a skew and one which is perhaps less readily countered than other skews in 8th but the 2 point Brimstones are rather good as are the exalted flamers. Lets ignore those and focus on the one thing which really puts the other Gods in Tzeentch's shadow imo which is the changeling, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Khorne have nothing of comparable buffing power and it seems a little over the top.
Slaanesh has the masque who is fictionally the same just with a smaller range 6 vs 9 and only hits daemonettes the big problem is everything except daemon prince, Keeper of secrets and Fiends should have the daemonette keyword but only seeker chariots, the masque herself and daemonettes have the keyword.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/08 04:43:35


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Except the Masque only does -1 in the fight phase...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 01:07:40


Post by: Rydria


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Except the Masque only does -1 in the fight phase...
I can't believe I missed that, well that is my bad.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 11:03:43


Post by: knas


So a couple of days later, what's the general opinion, did the point nerf on Brims fix the problem with them?

And does the point buff on the other bread and butter daemons (blodletters, pinks, bearers & daemonettes) make them more viable?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 12:11:53


Post by: rvd1ofakind


I'll talk about Letters and Nettes:
I'll compare them to genestealers - an extremelly good unit that is very similar in stats, weapons, saves to our daemons:
So they have 0.11 damage per point. That is the golden standard we want to get.
Letters right now are actually 0.14. Daemonettes are 0.1
Letters are pretty gooooooood... if they get there... The things Genestealers have going for them is that they are: faster and tougher. I'd say that makes them just a little better than letters. However if you summon (I KNOW) letters, the mobility advantage disappears. Which is what I think the next cool thing to do will be. Shove some malefic lords/khorne herald/skulltaker into a group of tough/numerous units move turn 1 if you go first and summon turn 2 or just summon turn 1 if your opponent starts rushing you.
Daemonettes are worse per damage, slower and less tough. The only thing they have going for the is the slaanesh ability... And that is actually deceptivelly good. It's really hard to correctly evaluate that ability without playing quite a few games against melee heavy enemies. it's like "hah, I charge all the time so I got first anyway", however don't forget that combat almost never ends the same turn. During the next turns you have a HUGE advantage of always going first.
Plaguebearers were apparently good enough to be top 20 in BAO. So making them cheaper is just icing on the cake


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 12:39:16


Post by: Cephalobeard


After breaking out 3 Giant Spawn over the weekend, and them outperforming my wildest dreams, I'm strongly considering upping the amount of them I use in my lists.

From 3 to 6. Anyone else fiddle with using more than 2-3 of them?

Six of them running with The Changeling and a Daemon Prince, with Exalted flamers hiding amongst them feels like one angry attack blob.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 12:56:18


Post by: str00dles1


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well at least the Chaos Daemon codex is predicted to be the biggest boost to an army yet by one of the testers.

The easiest thing to guess is 1/2 CP for deepstrike. Now imagine all those squishy slow but harditting deamons. Oh wait, they're on the opponents face turn one. Suddenly almost every problem CD had is gone because of how powerful a unit of 30 bloodletters/daemonettes or (if allowed) bloodthirster, skarbrand can be if they start 9'' from your opponent.


Its a band aid over a broken dam though. Sure, everyone will use it, but you can only do it once a turn.

Your best option there is use CSM as a distraction, while you CP in 30 letters every turn


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 15:23:05


Post by: spaceclown


Do any daemon vets have strategies for a Magnus-daemon bubble? So far Changeling is critical + not having him in LoS. Brim's to screen Exalted Flamers, and maybe screamers to tie up shooting units with a Herald on Chariot to accompany them and flee out of assault afterwards for more smite?

Am I on the right track?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 16:20:08


Post by: Cephalobeard


You're close.

Don't use Screamers, and consider not using Magnus. Just use more Heralds and more Exalted Flamers, as well as 1 Daemon Prince for rerolls.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 16:20:48


Post by: rvd1ofakind


str00dles1 wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well at least the Chaos Daemon codex is predicted to be the biggest boost to an army yet by one of the testers.

The easiest thing to guess is 1/2 CP for deepstrike. Now imagine all those squishy slow but harditting deamons. Oh wait, they're on the opponents face turn one. Suddenly almost every problem CD had is gone because of how powerful a unit of 30 bloodletters/daemonettes or (if allowed) bloodthirster, skarbrand can be if they start 9'' from your opponent.


Its a band aid over a broken dam though. Sure, everyone will use it, but you can only do it once a turn.

Your best option there is use CSM as a distraction, while you CP in 30 letters every turn


It's once per phase. But deep strike is pre-game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
spaceclown wrote:
Do any daemon vets have strategies for a Magnus-daemon bubble? So far Changeling is critical + not having him in LoS. Brim's to screen Exalted Flamers, and maybe screamers to tie up shooting units with a Herald on Chariot to accompany them and flee out of assault afterwards for more smite?

Am I on the right track?


Screamers are bad but Magnus is used by almost every deamon team, that does well in tournaments. Put in some Malefic Lords as they're too cheap to be true. Maybe think of leaving 220-440 points as reserve summon bloodletter bombs with the Malefic Lords as you need more damage after the Horror nerfs.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 16:35:35


Post by: drakerocket


Perhaps I am missing something on the calculations, but I think the differences between daemonettes and bloodletters are a bit more complicated, mostly in the impact of their respective strength and 'on a 6' abilities. If I may elaborate:

I tend to think the daemonette's '6' ability is considerably more useful than the 'letters one. Doing 2 damage will matter against fewer targets than shifting to a -4 AP, particularly when taking into account a (buffed) strength. Assuming targeting conscripts/gaunts/genestealers/boys, both abilities are functionally a wash. Targeting warriors, the rend matters much more than the 2 damage. Targeting marines, likewise, the rend is more important. On vehicles, both abilities shine, though it favors the letters ability.

I think where letters pull ahead is really exclusive to the charge and that is where the stark difference between the two demon abilities come. Most combats in 8th simply don't last long enough for the slaanesh ability to matter. If you're being charged, it is quite likely you're going to die, so the idea of long-running combats is minimal. Further, your opponent has to be charged more than two of his units into slaanesh units in order for that ability to matter at all turn one of a fight...sure it happens, but he has to have charged 4 units for it to do anything more than save you command points. An unlikely scenario. The khrone ability is so much stronger because it more than doubles the damage potential of a unit of letters against many targets. This is also sort of the reason Hysterical Frenzy ends up looking much better on paper than it is in play.

Again, I might be missing something, but why do you say that letters are faster than daemonettes? Daemonettes have the 7 inch more vs the letters 6?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 17:03:34


Post by: spaceclown


 Cephalobeard wrote:
You're close.

Don't use Screamers, and consider not using Magnus. Just use more Heralds and more Exalted Flamers, as well as 1 Daemon Prince for rerolls.


 rvd1ofakind wrote:


Screamers are bad but Magnus is used by almost every deamon team, that does well in tournaments. Put in some Malefic Lords as they're too cheap to be true. Maybe think of leaving 220-440 points as reserve summon bloodletter bombs with the Malefic Lords as you need more damage after the Horror nerfs.


Noted: no more screamers and begin to bring in more Malefic Lords and Heralds on Disc.

Thanks for the feedback!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 18:23:29


Post by: rvd1ofakind


drakerocket wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something on the calculations, but I think the differences between daemonettes and bloodletters are a bit more complicated, mostly in the impact of their respective strength and 'on a 6' abilities. If I may elaborate:

I tend to think the daemonette's '6' ability is considerably more useful than the 'letters one. Doing 2 damage will matter against fewer targets than shifting to a -4 AP, particularly when taking into account a (buffed) strength. Assuming targeting conscripts/gaunts/genestealers/boys, both abilities are functionally a wash. Targeting warriors, the rend matters much more than the 2 damage. Targeting marines, likewise, the rend is more important. On vehicles, both abilities shine, though it favors the letters ability.

I think where letters pull ahead is really exclusive to the charge and that is where the stark difference between the two demon abilities come. Most combats in 8th simply don't last long enough for the slaanesh ability to matter. If you're being charged, it is quite likely you're going to die, so the idea of long-running combats is minimal. Further, your opponent has to be charged more than two of his units into slaanesh units in order for that ability to matter at all turn one of a fight...sure it happens, but he has to have charged 4 units for it to do anything more than save you command points. An unlikely scenario. The khrone ability is so much stronger because it more than doubles the damage potential of a unit of letters against many targets. This is also sort of the reason Hysterical Frenzy ends up looking much better on paper than it is in play.

Again, I might be missing something, but why do you say that letters are faster than daemonettes? Daemonettes have the 7 inch more vs the letters 6?


Daemonettes are str 3 and ap 1, rarely 4. Bloodletters are str 4, usually 5 with ap 3, sometimes double damage. Not sure how do you think ap 1 could ever be better than ap 3, even if it goes to 4 on 6s. I didn't say Daemonettes are slower than letters, they are slower than Genestealers. I took the on 6 abilities into account when counting. The Khorne ability is almost always in effect as they should always charge or get charged. And you shouldn't discount the slaanesh ability. If 30 nettes run into 15 genestealers (happens all the time in this edition), they might stay there for a while.

Also hysterical frenzy is really bad as you can use it once every 3 games and even then it usually fails to cast... Just smite TBH

Basically where you need to pick between the two is when you summon. It's simple: Daemonettes vs very large low armor screen units, letters against most everything else


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 19:18:57


Post by: drakerocket


It's funny, I find nettes are 4 usually and only sometimes 3, while letters 6 usually, sometimes 5. I guess I've *very* paranoid about keeping herald support.

It's true hysterical frenzy isn't very good, that's mostly what I was trying to point out. The valley between the two is really in how much better the khrone ability is than the slaanesh one.

If this edition were one in which combats lasted many turns, I think nettes would pull ahead, more because of the 2 base attacks vs the 1 on letters when not on the charge than because of quicksilver reflexes. But so much is resolved in the first charge.

I think honestly the better formula goes nettes are better at being charged and letters are better at charging as a pretty universal theme.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 20:01:51


Post by: labmouse42


drakerocket wrote:
Perhaps I am missing something on the calculations, but I think the differences between daemonettes and bloodletters are a bit more complicated, mostly in the impact of their respective strength and 'on a 6' abilities. If I may elaborate:

I tend to think the daemonette's '6' ability is considerably more useful than the 'letters one. Doing 2 damage will matter against fewer targets than shifting to a -4 AP, particularly when taking into account a (buffed) strength. Assuming targeting conscripts/gaunts/genestealers/boys, both abilities are functionally a wash. Targeting warriors, the rend matters much more than the 2 damage. Targeting marines, likewise, the rend is more important. On vehicles, both abilities shine, though it favors the letters ability.

I think where letters pull ahead is really exclusive to the charge and that is where the stark difference between the two demon abilities come. Most combats in 8th simply don't last long enough for the slaanesh ability to matter. If you're being charged, it is quite likely you're going to die, so the idea of long-running combats is minimal. Further, your opponent has to be charged more than two of his units into slaanesh units in order for that ability to matter at all turn one of a fight...sure it happens, but he has to have charged 4 units for it to do anything more than save you command points. An unlikely scenario. The khrone ability is so much stronger because it more than doubles the damage potential of a unit of letters against many targets. This is also sort of the reason Hysterical Frenzy ends up looking much better on paper than it is in play.

Again, I might be missing something, but why do you say that letters are faster than daemonettes? Daemonettes have the 7 inch more vs the letters 6?
The 'letters always have a -3 AP. Going to a -4 is not that much better. I would rather go with the 2 wound per hit.

Like you mentioned, 'letters get a LOT better when they are charging. 20 letters charging a knight do the following.
40 attacks * (7/9 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 1 wound + 4.320987654
40 attacks * (7/9 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 2 wounds = 8.641975309
That's a total of 12.96 wounds to a knight!

In comparison 20 'nettes only do 6.677 wounds to the knight.
60 attacks * (2/3 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (auto failed save) * 1 wound

What makes the 'letters good now is that they are only 150 points for those 20 'letters.
Sure, they are a glass cannon, but they hit like a wrecking ball. I'm going to play around with summoning them in and see what they do.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 20:22:23


Post by: Cephalobeard


According to NOVA and ITC No daemons have a Faction, so we gain no benefit from any of the new Chapter Approved objective secured changes.

Apparently <Chaos> and <Allegiance> do not count as a faction.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 20:36:40


Post by: kodos


So Khorne/Tzeentch/Slaanesh/Nurgle Daemon is not a Faction, like Death Guard or Ultramarines

What is the point of having separate Faction Keywords if they do not count as Faction


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 20:38:04


Post by: Cephalobeard


Oh, no, <Ultramarines> and <Death Guard> are a faction.

They're claiming very specifically that <Khorne> etc do NOT count as factions.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 21:04:23


Post by: labmouse42


The reason is that there are many units that have Khorne as a keyword, and deeper keywords -- like World Eaters.

If Khorne were a faction, then a possessed of Khorne would have both Khorne as a faction and world eaters as a faction. In fact, they would have Khorne and Daemon as well, allowing you to run them in your daemonkin army.

Personally, I disagree with that reasoning, but that's just me.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 21:11:25


Post by: drakerocket


Yeah. Knight is admittedly a pretty perfect target for letters. The difference will be smaller on one-wound models to be sure, much smaller on low armor one wound models models. But letters do probably have the advantage because the khorne special rule is so much stronger than the slaanesh one when most fights don't go past the first charge.

Which is sad for nettes, as I adore them far more than letters. But even though they are the worse choice, I think at 7 a model both are actually probably pretty strong now. Running blobs of 20 is pretty unrealistic due to morale, but 70 points for 10 can give some very solid value.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 21:12:05


Post by: Cephalobeard


Yep.

Whatever the reasoning, as it stands, us and KROOT are basically the only army factions that receive no true faction and have no injective secured.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 23:49:16


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yep.

Whatever the reasoning, as it stands, us and KROOT are basically the only army factions that receive no true faction and have no injective secured.

Well, and both Imperial & Renegade Knights (& by extension Dark Mech) if ITC is being somewhat consistent.
Ignore me, still tired and forgot none of those factions have troops lol.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/09 23:52:21


Post by: IFC_Casting


How are fiends of Slaanesh doing?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 01:35:53


Post by: Ecdain


 Cephalobeard wrote:
After breaking out 3 Giant Spawn over the weekend, and them outperforming my wildest dreams, I'm strongly considering upping the amount of them I use in my lists.

From 3 to 6. Anyone else fiddle with using more than 2-3 of them?

Six of them running with The Changeling and a Daemon Prince, with Exalted flamers hiding amongst them feels like one angry attack blob.


I've been using three and toying with the idea of more with how amazing they are. Out of curiosity what model you using for giant spawn?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 02:01:03


Post by: Cephalobeard


Mutaliths.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 02:21:04


Post by: Rydria


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Oh, no, <Ultramarines> and <Death Guard> are a faction.

They're claiming very specifically that <Khorne> etc do NOT count as factions.
How are Chaos Daemons, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch not a faction ? We even had a solo codex for the previous 4 editions I'm confused :/


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 02:23:30


Post by: Cephalobeard


Trust me, I absolutely agree with you.

Push GW for clarification tomorrow, because currently ITC and NOVA are saying we don't exist.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 02:33:09


Post by: Rydria


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Trust me, I absolutely agree with you.

Push GW for clarification tomorrow, because currently ITC and NOVA are saying we don't exist.
Would you link me to where this is stated by them this seems ridiculously stupid


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 02:44:30


Post by: Cephalobeard


Competitive 40k FB Group. On the FLG Stream tonight they were asked if they'd comment, and they said no, then someone on stream made a comment saying "word on the street is that they're not a faction anymore".


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 03:04:38


Post by: Rydria


If daemons really are no longer a faction watch it be for some stupid reason like they wanted to make daemons a AOS only faction.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 03:12:53


Post by: rvd1ofakind


I mean, Chaos Daemons codex will be a thing definitelly, as they've said. So I think "not a faction" was a little tongue and cheek


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 03:22:26


Post by: Rydria


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I mean, Chaos Daemons codex will be a thing definitelly, as they've said. So I think "not a faction" was a little tongue and cheek
I'm a pretty optimistic guy, so it could be a miss communication on the part of the tourney organizers.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 05:35:52


Post by: Ecdain




Nice nice, that's what I was gonna use but get is out of stock :(

I'm pretty happy with my replacement though, using the Maggoth Lord mount from morbidex twiceborn(burgle rotbringers AoS) and it's been great. Just don't out saddle or rider on and it's super easy, bitz even allow for variation between same models.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 05:55:24


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Wow some people are really dumb on that group.
"It's fine daemons will have <faction> in the codex" when the whole fn point of the change is that so you DON'T have to wait for the damn codex...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 06:30:18


Post by: kodos


The reason is that there are many units that have Khorne as a keyword, and deeper keywords -- like World Eaters.

I just have the german books, but they make a clear difference in the rules between Faction and Keyword, eg a CSM Daemon Prince has the Daemon Keyword but not the Daemon Faction.

I can see why Khorne-Daemon faction does not count like Legion/Chapter/Regiment because it is fixed and you cannot freely chose a sub-faction (which is the only difference between all the other factions, that there is no "your own generic sub-faction" ) but it is just stupid of killing the big advantage of 8th after 3 months by saying "you need to wait for your codex"


Edit: for something different

Now still searching for a list I will use for gaming/tournaments until the game is "stable" (say at least another year).
I am not a friend of spam (no 8 daemon princes + 100 Horrors) or Magnus (I hate to carry those big models around) and have enough stuff around for everything but Nurgle.

so main focus would be on Tzeentch/Khorne, with the stuff that is already painted: 2-3 Tzeentch Princes, 1-2 Khorne Princes, 2x10 Pink Horrors, 4x5 Hounds, 2 Heralds on Juggernaut.

Would need another unit of Horrors, some Heralds in Disc and Flamers, not sure if I should stick with the Hounds (would need to rebase them) and the Juggernaut and I was thinking about taking Khorne Furies.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 07:08:44


Post by: rvd1ofakind


Sadly, hounds are really bad. 20pts per T4 5++ model? Only 1 ap? Why not just take 3 bloodletters (21pts) for more than 3x damage and more survivable

Also can anyone prove or disprove that you can re-roll seize and the new roll-off


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 12:33:32


Post by: labmouse42


 Cephalobeard wrote:
Push GW for clarification tomorrow, because currently ITC and NOVA are saying we don't exist.
And that's the big problem.
I don't give a poop about what games are like in the FLGS. Games with the 'Friday Night Leagers' are beer and pretzel games. We can play with whatever rules we want to use.

It matters when I attend events like NOVA, BFS, or LVO. I'm paying for hotel visits, plane tickets, etc. That gets really expensive and having your army nurfed sucks.
In some cases, like for NOVA, there simply is not enough time to build another army.

My hope is that when the codex is released, instead of getting obSec, daemons get the 'corruption' rule that incursions had in 7th. It was a great rule that was slightly different than obSec -- weaker in some ways and more powerful in others.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 12:43:10


Post by: Cephalobeard


I'd accept that. However, we need something until then or we lag behind everyone.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 14:48:32


Post by: Rydria


Perhaps daemons are getting roled into another codex ?

So we should wait to see if all the nurgle daemons are in the deathguard codex, if that is the case I could see tzeentch daemons in the Thousands Sons codex. As for Slaanesh and Khorne perhaps GW has an alternate army idea for those that isn't a chaos space marine sub faction.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 15:00:19


Post by: Cephalobeard


I'd accept Tzeentch being with Thousand sons, then I could use Rubrics instead of Horrors and call it a day.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 16:28:11


Post by: Dew


30 pages is a lot to sort through so I apologize if this has already been asked.
I have some buddies who play AoS but I exclusively play 40k. If I were to start a small Daemons army so I could play with my AoS buddies and well as still use them in 40k, are they still a viable army in 40k on their own in 8th edition? I don't have a 40k Chaos army to add them to, can Daemons compete on their own in 8th or are they mainly just CSM support units?

When I say compete I don't mean at a tournament level or anything.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 16:37:10


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Sadly, hounds are really bad. 20pts per T4 5++ model? Only 1 ap? Why not just take 3 bloodletters (21pts) for more than 3x damage and more survivable

Also can anyone prove or disprove that you can re-roll seize and the new roll-off


GW said the change to initiative is coming in Chapter Approved: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/09/new-matched-play-rules-in-chapter-approved-aug-9gw-homepage-post-1/


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 18:43:40


Post by: kodos


 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Sadly, hounds are really bad. 20pts per T4 5++ model? Only 1 ap? Why not just take 3 bloodletters (21pts) for more than 3x damage and more survivable


So Furies are the only interesting fast attack choice for Khorne/Tzeentch?

And if I think about it, I somehow like the idea of using Tzeetnch Furies to guard a Herald on Disc or Daemon Prince with wings for more mobility


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 18:49:27


Post by: Cephalobeard


Technically that's correct, yes.

I don't use any fast attack choices, and don't think any of them are worth it. Furies are probably the best options, though.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 20:15:37


Post by: kodos


Maybe something like this for 2k


3x Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings
3x Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
The Changeling

4x 1+9 Horrors

6x Exalted Flamer
1x 6 Flamers

3x 9 Chaos Furies


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/10 21:55:29


Post by: smegma_crunch


 kodos wrote:
 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Sadly, hounds are really bad. 20pts per T4 5++ model? Only 1 ap? Why not just take 3 bloodletters (21pts) for more than 3x damage and more survivable


So Furies are the only interesting fast attack choice for Khorne/Tzeentch?

And if I think about it, I somehow like the idea of using Tzeetnch Furies to guard a Herald on Disc or Daemon Prince with wings for more mobility



Blood slaughterers


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/11 06:19:16


Post by: knas


 kodos wrote:
Maybe something like this for 2k


3x Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings
3x Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
The Changeling

4x 1+9 Horrors

6x Exalted Flamer
1x 6 Flamers

3x 9 Chaos Furies


Is 1+9 brim/blue Horrors still the way to go with the point nerf to brims / boost to pinks?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/11 06:30:46


Post by: kodos


Depends on what you want
for blocking+smite they are still worth the points
but a 5+5 or 3+7 layout is also valid and maybe better if you keep points back for splitting the Blues

I don't see Pink being an option unless you go full offensive with them and want to use their shooting attack.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/11 13:01:56


Post by: Cephalobeard


I started using 1 Blue 19 Brim, 3 Squads of them. It works great. Feels like just the right number, too.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/11 16:15:33


Post by: spaceclown


 Cephalobeard wrote:
I started using 1 Blue 19 Brim, 3 Squads of them. It works great. Feels like just the right number, too.


I noticed that in your list and will probably be adding that to mine. I also like as the other poster above mentioned furies as a screen for DP and Heralds. They'll be quick enough to keep up and even take the overwatch for the DP.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/11 22:20:48


Post by: Arachnofiend





Good news for daemon players; there will be an exhaustive list of what does and does not get ObSec, and it sounds like Daemon detachments (so Chaos Undivided will be supported) are going to be included in that list.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/12 01:55:43


Post by: Rydria


i find it really annoying that Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and slaanesh are fake keywords sorry you're playing chaos soap because you're playing a mixed mono god army (even though Khorne actually had a codex for that last edition)

Yet Imperium armies like adeptus mechanicus can mix there sub factions, i understand it is fluffy and makes sense as they are the same faction.

But isn't a mixed horde of daemons and mortal followers who worship/serve the same god ?

Also the loss of cult troops is incredibly frustrating since no other available troop option fulfills the same role as noise marines.

Sure I can just take elite detachments but not only do I lose 2cp i also lose objective secured.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/12 07:14:10


Post by: whembly


So... I plan on bringing 2 Giant Spawns for my next tournament...

Which marks is the best for these guys??

MoT for 4++

or

MoN for 5++ and 5+++ for DR???


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/12 07:16:11


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


At least ObSec is Detachment based rather than army based, though it does mean more HQs and Detachments.

So Daemonkin can still be a kinda, sorta thing through multiple Detachments.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/12 08:26:47


Post by: CrownAxe


 whembly wrote:
So... I plan on bringing 2 Giant Spawns for my next tournament...

Which marks is the best for these guys??

MoT for 4++

or

MoN for 5++ and 5+++ for DR???
On there own 5++/5+++ is mathimatically better then 4++ but if you are running the Changeling then tzeentch is better


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/12 11:07:36


Post by: rvd1ofakind


What I'd really like is:
1. CSM Codex
2. Chaos Daemons (only daemons)
3. Thousand sons: Tzeentch and CSM
4. World Eaters: Khorne and CSM
5. Death Guard: Nurgle and CSM
6. Emperer's children: Slaanesh and CSM

So if you take all deamons you get stong random BS chaotic powers and if you take 3-6 you'd get a mix of random BS chaos and CSM


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2017/08/12 14:30:38


Post by: Cephalobeard


 CrownAxe wrote:
 whembly wrote:
So... I plan on bringing 2 Giant Spawns for my next tournament...

Which marks is the best for these guys??

MoT for 4++

or

MoN for 5++ and 5+++ for DR???
On there own 5++/5+++ is mathimatically better then 4++ but if you are running the Changeling then tzeentch is better


This.

I look forward to upping to six by the end of the month. Changeling and his giant puppies are excited to run up at people.