Cephalobeard wrote:
I look forward to upping to six by the end of the month. Changeling and his giant puppies are excited to run up at people.

I haven't played any games with Giant Spawn yet, don't have the models, just curious if your opponents have noticed how gimped they become if you just make sure to inflict 1 wound on each of them turn 1, and how you've dealt with that. Spawn are weird in being the only model (that I know of) that degrades as soon as it takes a single wound, dropping to only 3 + D3" movement at 9 wounds remaining. Seems like it would be difficult to get them across the field at that waddling pace.

Having thought about everything an now I have 2 lists in mind
basic difference is more Flamers and Horrors VS more Heralds and Furies


2x Battalion Detachment
3x Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings, Malefic talons
3x 10 Horros
6x Exalted Flamer
2x 6 Chaos Furies

2x Herald of Tzeentch on Disc,
The Changeling
3x10 Horros
3x 3 Flamers
2x 5 Chaos Furies

VS:

Battalion Detachment + Supreme Command Detachment
3x Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings, Malefic talons
3x 10 Horros
6x Exalted Flamer
3x 9 Chaos Furies

4x Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
The Changeling
1x 3 Flamers

Which ones are correct on the right if:
a) green is infantry
b) green has FLY

Distance is at least 9" and you can't charge because you cannot place your model and the enemy is more than 1" away (base to base) if you place it below them

However the wobbly model syndrome rule says if you can't place a model somewhere, you can imagine it there instead. So on any milimeter of the table you can place the model.

It has even been adressed in the FAQ
Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot completely end its move on a floor of ruins when attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome guidelines in the core rules to identify with your opponent where your model’s actual location is.

So you are completely wrong

The green 14" charge range is the correct one, sadly and illogically.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 whembly wrote:
So... I plan on bringing 2 Giant Spawns for my next tournament...

Which marks is the best for these guys??

MoT for 4++

or

MoN for 5++ and 5+++ for DR???

On there own 5++/5+++ is mathimatically better then 4++ but if you are running the Changeling then tzeentch is better

This.

I look forward to upping to six by the end of the month. Changeling and his giant puppies are excited to run up at people.

I got my hands on two of these...
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Rotbringers-Morbidex-Twiceborn

So, I'm trying to decide to paint them nurgley and use 'em as MoN Giant spawn, or if I should somehow "Tzeentch" it up for MoT.

I think MoN would be fine if they're used as distraction Carnifexes... no?

Now you are mixing WAAC with fair play

If you cannot place a model because it will fall down it is legal to just asume it is there

using that rule to get in between 4 models standing base to base because there is 1mm space in the centre of them is something different.

 kodos wrote:
Now you are mixing WAAC with fair play

If you cannot place a model because it will fall down it is legal to just asume it is there

using that rule to get in between 4 models standing base to base because there is 1mm space in the centre of them is something-different.

Dude, there is literally a question about this exact situation in the FAQ. So you think it's normal that a full melee army can do literally nothing against a ruin full of people? Isn't THAT WAAC?

And I mean 1mm on the side of the ruin. Not in the middle of models...

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The green 14" charge range is the correct one, sadly and illogically.

why?
everything is measured and moved with the shortest line
so real 3D is a thing and there is nor rule that overrides the core rules and say if you move up 3" measure first horizontal and than vertical

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The green 14" charge range is the correct one, sadly and illogically.

But FLG measure like this...
https://clips.twitch.tv/AverageAliveNostrilCeilingCat

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Dude, there is literally a question about this exact situation in the FAQ. So you think it's normal that a full melee army can do literally nothing against a ruin full of people? Isn't THAT WAAC?

this are the current rules, if you are melee only and someone placed all his models in the first level of a ruin with no place left you are done
they FAQ only allow you to use Wobbly Model Syndrome if you cannot complete a move to a stable position and not if there is no space at all to place it

8th rules are bad written an part of them are more stupid than any previous version

To go around this problem some tournaments here have a houserule that expands melee range from 1" to 1" horizontal and 3" vertical (in correlation to the unit formation rule with 2" and 6")
because we had this problem from time to time in previous tournaments, especially those that used original GW terrain

 kodos wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Dude, there is literally a question about this exact situation in the FAQ. So you think it's normal that a full melee army can do literally nothing against a ruin full of people? Isn't THAT WAAC?

this are the current rules, if you are melee only and someone placed all his models in the first level of a ruin with no place left you are done
they FAQ only allow you to use Wobbly Model Syndrome if you cannot complete a move to a stable position and not if there is no space at all to place it

8th rules are bad written an part of them are more stupid than any previous version

To go around this problem some tournaments here have a houserule that expands melee range from 1" to 1" horizontal and 3" vertical (in correlation to the unit formation rule with 2" and 6")
because we had this problem from time to time in previous tournaments, especially those that used original GW terrain

This is what I mean


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

especially those that used original GW terrain

EXACTLY. This is the thing that just makes me triggered. They are the ones creating the damn problem and not adressing it properlly. All I've got from everytime I asked anything about this question is "uhhh you measure in 3D"

 kodos wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The green 14" charge range is the correct one, sadly and illogically.

why?
everything is measured and moved with the shortest line
so real 3D is a thing and there is nor rule that overrides the core rules and say if you move up 3" measure first horizontal and than vertical

See question 3:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Stepping_into_a_New_Edition_of_Warhammer_40000.pdf

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The green 14" charge range is the correct one, sadly and illogically.

why?
everything is measured and moved with the shortest line
so real 3D is a thing and there is nor rule that overrides the core rules and say if you move up 3" measure first horizontal and than vertical

See question 3:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Stepping_into_a_New_Edition_of_Warhammer_40000.pdf

I think they are explaining this.

Why can't they just use images to explain stuff like this. I've gotten every answer 3 times... Literally 9 people split 3 ways....

yeah, they explain the difference between fly and not-fly units regarding terrain

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

See question 3:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Warhammer_40000_Stepping_into_a_New_Edition_of_Warhammer_40000.pdf

yeah, the FAQ say how to go over an obstacle, but this does not override the core rule that say distance between 2 bases is always measured the shortest way
so if you went over a Aegis, you do as in the FAQ, if you attack something in the first level of a ruin you measure the direct line

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

This is what I mean

would be up to the tournament you play
some say no you cannot because you cannot place them, others say at least 50% of the base for WMS, and others say place them below because the have the 3" vertical melee house rule

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

EXACTLY. This is the thing that just makes me triggered. They are the ones creating the damn problem and not adressing it properlly. All I've got from everytime I asked anything about this question is "uhhh you measure in 3D"

They made their terrain according to the rules of 4th edition
they never changed their design to fit TLOS or anything else and 4th edition terrain is not suited for 8th edition at all

and they actually don't care to write clear rules
maybe we get some of the most used Houserules from ITC added by the time, but GW would say, roll a dice and on a 4+ they can charge

Hmmm.... so the new Weaver of Fate Psychic Power...

Could that be used to give Aetaos'Rau'Keres a 2++ or does that only apply to Tzeentch CSMs?

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
Hmmm.... so the new Weaver of Fate Psychic Power...

Could that be used to give Aetaos'Rau'Keres a 2++ or does that only apply to Tzeentch CSMs?

Is Aetaos a Tzeentch Heretic Astartes?

The entire point of that wobbly model syndrome vs the ruin is the represent the assaulter scaling the walls, and the reason they can attack you is because they are stabbing your men threw the windows/holes in he ruin.

The reason you can't place the model is because we have yet to invent affordable flying bases (except that 1 guy with eldar magnet bases)

just don't use bases at all and there is no problem

Sokhar wrote:

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
Hmmm.... so the new Weaver of Fate Psychic Power...

Could that be used to give Aetaos'Rau'Keres a 2++ or does that only apply to Tzeentch CSMs?

Is Aetaos a Tzeentch Heretic Astartes?

Magnus is pretty happy about this power now though.

So in one of the BCP sponsored tournaments the dude in first place has:
6x 3 nurglings
10x Malefic Lords
Oh and 1400(!!!) summoning points. Well then...
Like, what else do you summon apart from bloodletters. Go full yolo and try to summon scabby
Because what else would you summon instead of just placing in your list to begin with? Fiends of slaanesh?

You can very easily summon 100+ Horrors, Changeling, then however many Herald's you want and proceed to walk forward smiting things to death.

New FAQ puts icons at 15 pts. Worth taking at all?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
New FAQ puts icons at 15 pts. Worth taking at all?

Oh... interesting... however with the price drops to models it still may be better to take 2 more dudes instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You can very easily summon 100+ Horrors, Changeling, then however many Herald's you want and proceed to walk forward smiting things to death.

Yeah but why not have them on the board to begin with? They are not fragile and they don't need to charge anything... so to move 12 instead of 6+d6? But then your lords don't move and might take wounds, I dnno. Maybe this is the way to go...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
New FAQ puts icons at 15 pts. Worth taking at all?

Oh... interesting... however with the price drops to models it still may be better to take 2 more dudes instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
You can very easily summon 100+ Horrors, Changeling, then however many Herald's you want and proceed to walk forward smiting things to death.

Yeah but why not have them on the board to begin with? They are not fragile and they don't need to charge anything... so to move 12 instead of 6+d6? But then your lords don't move and might take wounds, I dnno. Maybe this is the way to go...

Because you physically can't have them on the board to begin with.

You take a Batallion w/ 3 Lord's and 3 troops, then 2 Supreme Commands with 5 Lords each.

You get 13 Lord's, then whatever troops you want.

You can then summon 13 HQs if you want, because you can summon outside of force org.

 Rydria wrote:
i find it really annoying that Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and slaanesh are fake keywords sorry you're playing chaos soap because you're playing a mixed mono god army (even though Khorne actually had a codex for that last edition)

Why would this not be allowed? It's in the Faction Keywords list.

Aelyn wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
i find it really annoying that Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and slaanesh are fake keywords sorry you're playing chaos soap because you're playing a mixed mono god army (even though Khorne actually had a codex for that last edition)

Why would this not be allowed? It's in the Faction Keywords list.

You lose objective secured if you have a mixed army, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh aren't factions so if you put 1 chaos space marine daemon unit in your daemon army all your troops lose obsec.

 Rydria wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
i find it really annoying that Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and slaanesh are fake keywords sorry you're playing chaos soap because you're playing a mixed mono god army (even though Khorne actually had a codex for that last edition)

Why would this not be allowed? It's in the Faction Keywords list.

You lose objective secured if you have a mixed army, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh aren't factions so if you put 1 chaos space marine daemon unit in your daemon army all your troops lose obsec.

Why aren't they factions? They're in the Faction Keywords section, right?

And chaos is a faction anyway right?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
And chaos is a faction anyway right?

Playing your faction as chaos denies you objective secured because it is too generic.

 Rydria wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
And chaos is a faction anyway right?

Playing your faction as chaos denies you objective secured because it is too generic.

Can you please explain why? There's nothing I've seen in the rulebook, index, or FAQs to support this.

Or is this an assumption / rumour about the contents of Chapter Approved?

(This is for both Chaos as a keyword and the individual gods as keywords)

It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

New errata confirms Be'lakor can use the entire Dark Hereticus power pool. Level up!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Also Daemon cheese loophole has been closed up by FAQing the points and smite changes directly to the Index.

It's per the rules set out in the codex. In order for a CSM detatchment to be a CSM battleforged detatchment, all units must share a Legion keyword. Daemons don't have the keyword, so if they are included, the detatchment doesn't get the Despoilers of the Galaxy ability. It's on page 156.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

Okay, fair enough. So it's not actually against the rules as they stand at the moment. That's what I was asking.

Aelyn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

Okay, fair enough. So it's not actually against the rules as they stand at the moment. That's what I was asking.

See the above comment. Page 156 of the codex.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Aelyn wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
It's per GW Playtesters, who run major events.

GW themselves have not said ANYTHING of the sort, but if you attend these events the organizers, who playtesters 8th, deny you the mentioned abilities.

Moving forward, anyway.

Okay, fair enough. So it's not actually against the rules as they stand at the moment. That's what I was asking.

See the above comment. Page 156 of the codex.

I wasn't asking about the new codex, I was checking my Death Guard / Nurgle daemon army from Index: Chaos was legal.

GW is gonna put out an exhaustive list of what does and does not count, so hopefully that'll clear up any issues (though I'm sure it will also make a lot of people upset).

Tbh, at this point I see one of the best and most fun daemons list as
Changeling
Malefulic lords
Durable/cheap troops
Maybe Magnus because of how good he is 3+ invul re-roll 1s, 38inch move k thx
A ton of points in reserve
This way the opponent can't shoot down your big dudes turn one and two, and it takes actual skill to plan out what to summon where and counting points. And if you get charged turn one because you're facing one of those armies, you can summon the best dudes to deal with them. I like it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gonna take this sick list into a casual 1000 random pair tournament:
ML x2
10 brims x3
ML x3
10 brims
3 Nurglings x2

9 cp, 610 in reserve for a scabby (if I want to troll someone :p) and obviously actually good things

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
New FAQ puts icons at 15 pts. Worth taking at all?

Oh... interesting... however with the price drops to models it still may be better to take 2 more dudes instead.

15 is a big drop.
The cool thing about the icons is that if even just one guy drops, then you have a 1/6 chance of getting d3 more. This means, assuming they take casualties every round, then after 6 rounds, they will proc and gain ~14 points back.
One of the things that makes this slightly better is that the unit does not suffer any casualties from battle shock when it pops. So if you are out of command points, and roll that 1 - and would be losing 2-3 guys then you won't lose any.
Is it still worth 15 points? I don't know. As the plague bearers got a discount, I'll try some at 15 for my next few games and see how they do.

Edit : The real bang here is the cost decrease for plague drones and bloodcrushers. Those units get over 40 points in return when the banner procs, making it a good investment.
Since this change is in index:chaos it applies across the board.

Btw, just so I'm not missing anything, do we have anything except icons to make charges easier?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Btw, just so I'm not missing anything, do we have anything except icons to make charges easier?

I think you mean instruments, right?

Command die for rerolls.

Fun fact: with an Instrument of Chaos and a command die re-roll for the charge re-roll, we have a 65.96% chance of making a charge straight out of summoning. Not bad odds, but it still makes summoning 20+ Bloodletters for that big charge a risky prospect, because they'll get blown to bits if they fail the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another topic, I noticed Be'Lakor now has access to the very powerful CSM Hereticus discipline, but he... can't cast any of the good powers on himself as he lacks the appropriate keyword? Hoping GW FAQs this.

Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors

I got:

1x Fateweaver
1x Daemon Prince
1x Belakor
1x Changeling
30 x Pink
20 x Blue
20 x Brimstone
6x Flamers
5x Scarab Occult Terminators
3x Oblits
3x Mutilators

Looking at the recent changes for Horrors (Pink cost decrease, Brimstone increase, Icon decrease), i wonder if it is really worth to field a
10x Pink Horror squad for D3 Smite.
Most of the time it doesnt go off anyway and if you want to have the chance for D3 Smite for more than 1 turn, you would have to add some Brimstones to a Pink Horror Squad. Like 10x Pink, 10x Brimstone.
The problem imo is that the Pink Horrors, despite the fact that the squad also includes 10x Brimstones, most likely will die to morale because the Brimstones will die.
So no 10x Pink Horrors, no D3 smite.
So why field Pinks anyway? You wont have D3 Smite for long and the chance of getting D6 slain Pink horror back (via Icon) is really
low. Most of the time it also doesnt go off. Additionally you would still have to roll high enough to get back on 10 for D3 smite.
The point decrease does not match the smite nerf. Imo anybody will just keep fielding mass brimstones, just because of the extreme low cost, though increased.

I also got a Fateweaver.
Okay, he can smite and deny really well. and he is good in CC, but only if he is not crippled.
The Tzeentch disclipnes are really weak, there is not much reason to use them.
So is it worth playing a costly Fateweaver? Because ATM i feel he is pretty weak, Lascannons just melt him down.
What do you think?

Belakor is a beast, total worth any Point.
Nice Combo with Occult Terminators, Oblits and Mutilators via Prescience & Warptime (only if it goes off).

Changeling is just supergood.

Flamers are decent, but have to be handled very careful.


So, all in all i think Pink Horrors are still weak, their cost is still too high. Smite nerf is also too big, because for a Horror squad it can get easily denied.
Fateweaver not worth playing at the moment, needs buff through better psychic powers or whatever. Hes just too weak atm.

Can you give me some tactical advice looking at the models i have got?
What do you think about my statement on the horrors?

Everybody else is also talking about "Malefic Lords".
Is it a FW thing? Where to find their profiles? As far as i could see and read in this threat, there are no models available for them, am i correct?

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

 magodedisco wrote:

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

Wow this entire time I thought everyone was referring to Daemon Prince Malefic Talons as Malefic Lords! (New Tzeentch player as well).

Do these lords have any CC abilities? Fly? etc or just for Smite?

spaceclown wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

Wow this entire time I thought everyone was referring to Daemon Prince Malefic Talons as Malefic Lords! (New Tzeentch player as well).

Do these lords have any CC abilities? Fly? etc or just for Smite?

Not innately, no, Malefic Lords are only 30 points apiece. However, they have a special rule that says if they ever suffer a Perils of the Warp and survive, they basically Hulk-out and change their Weapon Skill to 2+, their Strength to 8, Attacks to...4?, and their bare hands upgrade to -2 AP and 2 damage. It's niche, but a nice little bonus on an already cheap and super efficient model.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
New FAQ puts icons at 15 pts. Worth taking at all?

Oh... interesting... however with the price drops to models it still may be better to take 2 more dudes instead.

15 is a big drop.
The cool thing about the icons is that if even just one guy drops, then you have a 1/6 chance of getting d3 more. This means, assuming they take casualties every round, then after 6 rounds, they will proc and gain ~14 points back.
One of the things that makes this slightly better is that the unit does not suffer any casualties from battle shock when it pops. So if you are out of command points, and roll that 1 - and would be losing 2-3 guys then you won't lose any.
Is it still worth 15 points? I don't know. As the plague bearers got a discount, I'll try some at 15 for my next few games and see how they do.

Edit : The real bang here is the cost decrease for plague drones and bloodcrushers. Those units get over 40 points in return when the banner procs, making it a good investment.
Since this change is in index:chaos it applies across the board.

Where are you seeing the price changes for drones and bloodcrushers? Cause I really must be blind im not seeing it in the index update.

Edit: never mind. I just got what you were saying.

Sokhar wrote:

Not innately, no, Malefic Lords are only 30 points apiece. However, they have a special rule that says if they ever suffer a Perils of the Warp and survive, they basically Hulk-out and change their Weapon Skill to 2+, their Strength to 8, Attacks to...4?, and their bare hands upgrade to -2 AP and 2 damage. It's niche, but a nice little bonus on an already cheap and super efficient model.

oh okay so essentially 3 ML for the cost of 1 Herald on Disc. Meaning I should screen them with Brims.

In your opinion, would a foot slogging ML be > than Disc Heralds? If so, that frees up lots of points in my list

I always run one disc herald in every Tzeentch list. The speed is not to be underestimated with fly.

That being said, simply always add a supreme command of 5 Lords and an exalted flamer whenever possible. I include at least 5 in every list.

Holy hell, after all this talk about Malefic Lords, I'm seeing all the MW firepower they can dish out for only 150 points, all while hiding behind Brims.

This feels dirty and That Guy.

Invul wrote:
Holy hell, after all this talk about Malefic Lords, I'm seeing all the MW firepower they can dish out for only 150 points, all while hiding behind Brims.

This feels dirty and That Guy.

It's absolutely a tournament level strat. I'm taking 4 in my tournament list, but I've heard of people taking 5 or 6. They are actually that good

I thought summoning was completely dead.....this talk is encouraging! I might leave some command points aside for summoning now.

Aside from bloodletters and brims, what else is worthwhile? Can I summon an under strength unit? Lets say I leave 3 reinforcement points, can I summon a unit of one brimstone?

 magodedisco wrote:

DortmundOutpost wrote:
Im a new Player, so i really dont know much about "strong" lists etc..

ATM i can only play with the modelsns i have. Most of it are Horrors...

You hit the nail on the head with your analysis. I don't think Pink Horrors are worth their points, compared to the Brimstones (hell, even Blues). Adding up your points, it looks like even playing everything you've got (not ideal obviously) you're still a bit short of 2K.

Regarding Malefic Lords, the profile must be referring to the "Renegade Rogue Psykers," shown here: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers
As such, you've got some flexibility on what models you want to use for this entry. Personally, I'm using the AoS Kairic Acolytes, because they look suitably Tzeetchy/Wizardy enough to match the general aesthetic.
To sum up the unit profile, they're very cheap (30 points), have a 4+ invul and can Smite without any disadvantage. As HQs, you can also spam them in Supreme Command detachments. Furthermore, they're not associated with any chaos god, so they're ideal for summoning any daemon unit.

Aaaahhh finally....thank you for clarification .
So basically they are a cheap undivided chaos lord, to be played in a summoning list.

Well, over the last days ive been a lot in the tactica thread and it seems like, summoning lists are the only thing thats worth to play, though with lots of cheap HQs,
due to doubles and triples dealing 1/D3 dmg.
I think the mechanic is pretty bad designed, with all the range limitation and all risks it brings with it, but thats another topic.

Thank you for summing up the profile, what book does contain the "Renegade Rogue Psykers".
Is it like Malefic Lord/Renegade Psyker? I dont understand how and where/what book the unit is clearly determined.
I have the "FW: Imperial Armor - Index Forces of Chaos", but i cant find any renegades...

Renegades are in the FW Astra Militarum Index.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Renegades are in the FW Astra Militarum Index.

Arent they Chaos? Why are they in the FW: Astra Militarum Index?
And is there a reference to Malefic Lords? Because i have been told, the Lords profile is referring to the renegades...

Pls help me

They are traitor guard and use a lot of guard units so they got lumped into that book.
Maelific Lords are included there.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They are traitor guard and use a lot of guard units so they got lumped into that book.
Maelific Lords are included there.

Thank you very much!

So what would you suggest for the proxy of Malefic Lord.

Some guy here used Prodos Warzone Miniatures (they look really cool), another guy used AOS Magister or AOS Kairic Acolytes.
Any other ideas?

I have a pretty hefty collection, so I'm dragging out every chaos sorceror, lesser champion, nurgle acolytes, the larger familiars.scratchbuild inquisimunda gangs.. turncoat imperial sanctioned.. anything really.

So, my attempt to make a list is here:

Army Point Limit: 1850

SUPREME COMMAND DETACHMENT I +1CP
4x Malefic Lords -- 120pt.

SUPREME COMMAND DETACHMENT II +1CP
3x Heralds of Tzeentch on disc (Staff of Change, Bolt of Change, Treason of Change) -- 312pt.

BATTALION DETACHMENT +3CP

HQ
1x Kairos Fateweaver (All Tzeentch psychich powers) -- 400pt. +D3CP
1x The Changeling (Boon of Change) -- 100pt.

Troops
2x Horrors -- 5 Blues, 5 Brimstone (5 brimstone Split), no Icon, no Instrument -- 110pt.
2x Bloodletters -- Icon, Instrument -- 210pt.
2x Plaguebearers -- Icon, Instrument -- 210pt.

Elites
1x 6 Flamers of Tzeentch -- 168pt.

Fast Attack
2x Seekers -- Icon, Instrument -- 260pt.

1830/1850 pt.

Feel free to comment on this

2k points is the norm for 8th Edition.

Flamers are dangerous and are just sitting ducks to give your opponent first blood.

Kairos is garbage. For an extra 15pts you can have Magnus.

Icon and instruments are lnt really with it. They're absurdly expensive.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
2k points is the norm for 8th Edition.

Flamers are dangerous and are just sitting ducks to give your opponent first blood.

Kairos is garbage. For an extra 15pts you can have Magnus.

Icon and instruments are lnt really with it. They're absurdly expensive.

Okay, i didnt know 2000 pts. is the norm, good to hear!

Its too bad Fateweaver is Garbage, i really like him. Fluffwise and also the model. But yes Magnus in camparison is defenitly more powerful.
Okay, so no Flamers...i will try them anyway, if its 2000pts., i still have enough left.
No icon or instrument at all? I mean an Instrument could be crucial for attempting various charges after summoning. Icon okay, i thought of scratching that too.

What would be another good addition? Add a Daemon Prince? Or add some Obliterators to combo with magnus?

Is 2000pts, official tournament value?

I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

Tomorrow i will make a test game because i dont have all the models yet.
I will think about your idea. Have to calculate it, thank you!

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

I have looked at the same idea a few times. Pink Horrors represent only 1/5 of the actual models in the unit (if you split all the way down). The auto-morale stratagem is the real clincher. Taking a look at survivability-per-point, the squad averages out to still be better than a Plaguebearer (in squads less than 20) on average. That's mostly because Brimstones are still point-for-point the most survivable thing in the game, which tilts the average up quite a bit.

However, I had not considered the possibility of using those saved points for summoning if the Pinks aren't getting targeted- tricky stuff there!

So, while we're on the subject of summoning, what are some great summoning options that will be worth picking up for any Daemons army this edition? Right off the bat, I think we'll all agree the standout is a squad of 20 Bloodletters, with an instrument. For 150 points, this unit has a 2/3 chance of just absolutely mauling whatever is in its path in the ensuing combat step. Averaging in the 1/3 chance of failure as 0 wounds dealt, the unit still does more damage per point than anything I've come across so far (to a T7, 3+ unit, in this example):

 magodedisco wrote:

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

I have looked at the same idea a few times. Pink Horrors represent only 1/5 of the actual models in the unit (if you split all the way down). The auto-morale stratagem is the real clincher. Taking a look at survivability-per-point, the squad averages out to still be better than a Plaguebearer (in squads less than 20) on average. That's mostly because Brimstones are still point-for-point the most survivable thing in the game, which tilts the average up quite a bit.

However, I had not considered the possibility of using those saved points for summoning if the Pinks aren't getting targeted- tricky stuff there!

So, while we're on the subject of summoning, what are some great summoning options that will be worth picking up for any Daemons army this edition? Right off the bat, I think we'll all agree the standout is a squad of 20 Bloodletters, with an instrument. For 150 points, this unit has a 2/3 chance of just absolutely mauling whatever is in its path in the ensuing combat step. Averaging in the 1/3 chance of failure as 0 wounds dealt, the unit still does more damage per point than anything I've come across so far (to a T7, 3+ unit, in this example):

A Slaanesh daemon prince is mathematically almost as good as Magnus ? (Is this the intoxicating elixer prince)

A Slaanesh daemon prince is mathematically almost as good as Magnus ? (Is this the intoxicating elixer prince)

I should have explained further when posting that- it actually looks like that entry is an Intoxicating Elixir Slaanesh DP also casting Smite (I leave notes that make sense at one point then forget to erase). The whole sheet is on a per-point basis. So, yes, it does appear that that build is on-par with Magnus on a point-per-damage basis against T7/3+. However, that doesn't account for overkilling something that doesn't have enough wounds. Magnus deals a whopping 23.215 wounds, between smite, another offensive spell, and his attacks, which very few units can withstand without some damage being wasted.

My main point was that Bloodletters are insanely lethal for their points now.

 magodedisco wrote:

A Slaanesh daemon prince is mathematically almost as good as Magnus ? (Is this the intoxicating elixer prince)

I should have explained further when posting that- it actually looks like that entry is an Intoxicating Elixir Slaanesh DP also casting Smite (I leave notes that make sense at one point then forget to erase). The whole sheet is on a per-point basis. So, yes, it does appear that that build is on-par with Magnus on a point-per-damage basis against T7/3+. However, that doesn't account for overkilling something that doesn't have enough wounds. Magnus deals a whopping 23.215 wounds, between smite, another offensive spell, and his attacks, which very few units can withstand without some damage being wasted.

My main point was that Bloodletters are insanely lethal for their points now.

That is good to know it is nice to have the second best daemon prince after Magnus surprised the slaanesh prince is superior to belakor

How good are daemonettes I assume they are inferior to genestealers (asking since self imposed restriction prevent me using bloodletters)

How good are daemonettes I assume they are inferior to genestealers (asking since self imposed restriction prevent me using bloodletters)

VS Ork:

image cdn free

Vs Rhino:

image cdn free

I wouldn't be too dismayed by the Daemonettes/Genestealers lack of damage compared to the Bloodletters. Compared to a wide variety of units I've checked out, the newly-pointed 'Letters are just off the charts. The Daemonettes/Genestealers also have some advantages you can't put points on- faster movement, charge after running, always strike first, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit- Also important to bear in mind how much less survival the Genestealers are for their points- over double for only 1 extra point of toughness!

Genestealers seem really bad compared to even Daemonettes let alone Bloodletters, on the cost to damage ratio, are you including a herald in those calculations ?

I've been strongly considering adding a small contingent of Alpha Legion, in a spearhead, with a generic, cheap HQ and 3 Obliterator squads for kicks.

As they're both alpha legion and Tzeentch Daemons, they'd have -2 to be hit when near the changeling.

It's pretty janky but sounds hilarious

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I've been strongly considering adding a small contingent of Alpha Legion, in a spearhead, with a generic, cheap HQ and 3 Obliterator squads for kicks.

As they're both alpha legion and Tzeentch Daemons, they'd have -2 to be hit when near the changeling.

It's pretty janky but sounds hilarious

Point-for-point their damage is now fantastic, particularly if you can keep them near a to-hit buff/reroll of some sort (any Tzeentch Daemon Prince or Be'Lakor is ideal). They're also very survivable with the Changeling buff and you're guaranteed to shoot with them first due to deep strike. All in all, I'd say it's far from janky.

 magodedisco wrote:

Gladders1980 wrote:
I like a unit of 20 pinks, it may not be as cost effective as Brims, but with splitting its effectively a 100 wound unit with 4++ that can only take 1 wound at time damage. It's not going anywhere especially with a changeling next to it.

As soon a s a couple pinks die and split into blues, anymore that die you remove the blues before pinks, then remove the brims before blues/pinks etc. So it take as very long time and a lot of attacks to put some dents into those pinks!

I also usually have 8 command points so use them for the unit to auto pass morale. A recent game I lost 10 models on the first turn of shooting but only 2 of them were pinks. My opponent was very annoyed.

Not played super competitive with it but in a recent local (not stupid lists) tourney in 3 games no one came close to killing the unit, I think the most pinks I lost in one game was 12. Including facing an imperial guard army with conscripts and armour. It's a big tarpit that can protect those vulnerable 4 wound characters we have.

It also leaves you spare summoning points it you don't need to fully split because your opponent is not doing enough damage

I have looked at the same idea a few times. Pink Horrors represent only 1/5 of the actual models in the unit (if you split all the way down). The auto-morale stratagem is the real clincher. Taking a look at survivability-per-point, the squad averages out to still be better than a Plaguebearer (in squads less than 20) on average. That's mostly because Brimstones are still point-for-point the most survivable thing in the game, which tilts the average up quite a bit.

However, I had not considered the possibility of using those saved points for summoning if the Pinks aren't getting targeted- tricky stuff there!

So, while we're on the subject of summoning, what are some great summoning options that will be worth picking up for any Daemons army this edition? Right off the bat, I think we'll all agree the standout is a squad of 20 Bloodletters, with an instrument. For 150 points, this unit has a 2/3 chance of just absolutely mauling whatever is in its path in the ensuing combat step. Averaging in the 1/3 chance of failure as 0 wounds dealt, the unit still does more damage per point than anything I've come across so far (to a T7, 3+ unit, in this example):

Yeah, bloodletters are pretty good. I'm making a summoning mathammer thing so I ca- wait what. Why in the green hell did I think 20 letters were 220 pts? So I just won a game where I could summon 20 more bloodletters ._. Sick :p

Yeah, bloodletters are cheap and good now. I am considering reserving 150 points worth just for the option of summoning them in turn 2 for a 20 blood letter charge. That would murder lots of stuff in CC as long as they make the charge.

Yeah, 300 points of reserves can go a long way. Pretty much 2 squads of 20 man letters with instruments or 3 exalted flamers and some brims is the way to go depending on opponent.

Yeah, bloodletters are the best unit against any target. Craps on bloodthirster when fighting Knights. :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's also something to be said about Pinks and Ex. Flamers/Burning Chariots as they can shoot after summoning

Going for Summoning I see how Pink Horrors work well as additional option
But I still think this is too expensive to use more of them if you need to fill slots

a unit of 20 with enough points to fully split 10 pink cost the same like 6 units of 5 Blues + 5 Brimstone with points to split the Blues

You don't need to fully split though...

of course you don't need but if you don't intended to fully split, there is also no need for 20 pink as 10 pink+10 blue does the same job for less points
So if you not enough spare points for splitting anyway there is no reason to take a whole units of pinks

 magodedisco wrote:

How good are daemonettes I assume they are inferior to genestealers (asking since self imposed restriction prevent me using bloodletters)

VS Ork:

image cdn free

Vs Rhino:

image cdn free

I wouldn't be too dismayed by the Daemonettes/Genestealers lack of damage compared to the Bloodletters. Compared to a wide variety of units I've checked out, the newly-pointed 'Letters are just off the charts. The Daemonettes/Genestealers also have some advantages you can't put points on- faster movement, charge after running, always strike first, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit- Also important to bear in mind how much less survival the Genestealers are for their points- over double for only 1 extra point of toughness!

Okay, Bloodletters is a must have. How many Bloodletter you think i should get @2000pts? 1x 20 letters squad or more?
But where did you get this chart? Did you make it on your own? What exactly does it show - dmg per point cost?
How many times can you summon by the way with one chraracter? 1x time per character and movement phase?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I've been strongly considering adding a small contingent of Alpha Legion, in a spearhead, with a generic, cheap HQ and 3 Obliterator squads for kicks.

As they're both alpha legion and Tzeentch Daemons, they'd have -2 to be hit when near the changeling.

It's pretty janky but sounds hilarious

Wow, i have to look that up. What ability for the Alpha Legion is it?
I thought about putting in Oblits. too, since they got buffed and i also already own 3x.
3X Oblits squads is a good dmg output, very good. Nice Idea!

Are Seekers worth playing?

Oblits get the - 1 to hit from the Changeling as well as the - 1 to hit from the Alpha Legion trait. I see a great value on them for any DAEMON or CSM army.

Yeah. They're pretty solid.

I'm a tzeentch player. I don't like new rules for brimstone horrors. How can i replace them? Do you think they are still a good unit?
Thanks

Of course they're still good. The rules changes nothing. They're likely closer to a more appropriate point cost. 3ppm is still very worth paying.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Of course they're still good. The rules changes nothing. They're likely closer to a more appropriate point cost. 3ppm is still very worth paying.

But now they deal only 1 mortal wound for smite, right?

So? Now you just don't bother smiting. It was only going off on a 5/6 before anyway.

Means you save some points because you don't need to add a blue any longer.

They are still a shield for other unit, sure.

That's all they need to be, exactly.

casdark wrote:
They are still a shield for other unit, sure.

That's all they are supposed to be.

No ranged attack.
CC attacks that will rarely ever do a wound to something with them having 1 strength.
Smite is unreliable with a 1/3rd chance of it being casted. I just had a game the other week where I successfully casted 2 smites out of about 15 attempts with them. It's really just a bonus if they manage to cast it.

But 3 points for a unit with a 4++ save is amazing. They are very durable. Takes either mortal wounds or high volume of attacks(or poor save rolls) to take them out.

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They are traitor guard and use a lot of guard units so they got lumped into that book.
Maelific Lords are included there.

Thank you very much!

So what would you suggest for the proxy of Malefic Lord.

Some guy here used Prodos Warzone Miniatures (they look really cool), another guy used AOS Magister or AOS Kairic Acolytes.
Any other ideas?

Crypt horror arms, Flagrant bodies, 3rd party skull heads. Any AoS sorcerer with a decently evil looking head swap should work as well. I usually use these dudes as a psyker coven, but when I need malefic lords, why not?

I was using electro priests as sergeants for my R&H. I chopped off the priest hands and put daemon hands on them instead. Now with sergeants not giving demagogues, or being anything special. I'll probably use them as Malefic lords as well.. if I ever want to be that guy and run more than 10. You can kind of see them in the back of the second picture

I use 9 of these.

Worth noting that under ITC new rules, having a Heretic Astartes unit does not break ObSec for troops in a Daemons detachment so long as the unit has the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon unit keyword.

Great for me, because I am having a lot of fun with my Epidemius list that has Bloat Drones and Heldrakes.

However, Heretic Astartes would not have any of their legion traits.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
However, Heretic Astartes would not have any of their legion traits.

Very true, but at least in my case, keeping Brimstones OB-sec, while letting my Prince come from CSM (and thus get the spell I want most), is awesome!

I believe CSM Princes don't have Daemon allegiances though, so no Ephermal Form, Disgusting Resilience, etc. Just be aware of that.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I believe CSM Princes don't have Daemon allegiances though, so no Ephermal Form, Disgusting Resilience, etc. Just be aware of that.

I am, and it DEFINITELY sucks, but having access to an emergency (and "hide-able) backup source of Prescience for my Slaanesh Terminators is important enough to give it up.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I use 9 of these.

I plan on using the Chaos Knights as my maelific lords (I dislike the FW model):


Painting 4 to be one of the "Four Horsemen" and the rest with their halbred/spears.

They'll definitely be way too big if you do that, but most people won't complain about modeling for disadvantage.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
They'll definitely be way too big if you do that, but most people won't complain about modeling for disadvantage.

I'd figure it'd be modeling for disadvantage since it'll be harder to hide them in LOS blocking terrain.

Yes. That's what I said. People won't care, because you modeled for disadvantage.

 Virules wrote:
Worth noting that under ITC new rules, having a Heretic Astartes unit does not break ObSec for troops in a Daemons detachment so long as the unit has the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon unit keyword.

Great for me, because I am having a lot of fun with my Epidemius list that has Bloat Drones and Heldrakes.

Wrong. Check how the keywords are on a Chaos Daemon and on a CSM daemon unit.
Chaos Daemons have both Chaos and Daemon in Faction keywords, while CSM deamons have Chaos in Faction and Daemon in keywords.

This has been confirmed BTW, you can't take csm daemons and still get ob sec. Sucks as I have 2 heldrakes and now need a 3rd flier to use them :/ .. Or take one of the 3 no troop detachments. Sad that Supreme command doesn't let you take fliers

He wasn't talking about actual rules, just how the ITC are ruling it.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
He wasn't talking about actual rules, just how the ITC are ruling it.

And ITC are ruling it like I've said. Read the comments on the page and see Reece respond exactly as I've said....

I have and he said as Virules wrote. Whether he meant that I doubt. Either way, worth clarifying before building a tourney list.

There's nothing worth clarifying. What are you talking about...

If you use a CSM daemon in a Chaos Daemons detachment - the troops will NOT get objective secured

Reece was pretty explicit in saying more than once that you need to have the Chaos faction keyword and be a Daemon (ie have the Daemon keyword). If he meant have both the Chaos and the Daemon faction keywords, why wouldn't he have said that?

It's also worth noting for anyone concerned, LVO Head judges confirmed interactions like Obliterators/Mutilators working w/ thing like Daemon Heralds, Masque, Changeling, etc.

They count as both their <Legion> and <Allegiance>.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
They are traitor guard and use a lot of guard units so they got lumped into that book.
Maelific Lords are included there.

Thank you very much!

So what would you suggest for the proxy of Malefic Lord.

Some guy here used Prodos Warzone Miniatures (they look really cool), another guy used AOS Magister or AOS Kairic Acolytes.
Any other ideas?

Crypt horror arms, Flagrant bodies, 3rd party skull heads. Any AoS sorcerer with a decently evil looking head swap should work as well. I usually use these dudes as a psyker coven, but when I need malefic lords, why not?

I was using electro priests as sergeants for my R&H. I chopped off the priest hands and put daemon hands on them instead. Now with sergeants not giving demagogues, or being anything special. I'll probably use them as Malefic lords as well.. if I ever want to be that guy and run more than 10. You can kind of see them in the back of the second picture

The Crypt Horror/Flagrant Conversion looks sooooo good! Very nice!
I think im gonna route for that too....any links for the models? Oh wait.... i am able to use google by myself


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another question: Can you summon the changeling more than 1x time? So that you have as many on the field as you like?

And is it still legal to have Malefic Lords as Supreme Command Detachment, in a Daemon Army?

Everyone is talking about things like Objective Secured.....what does it mean in context with Allegiance or if you have a Vanguard Detachment with 1x Malefic Lord and 3x Exalted Flamer?

No, you cannot summon him more than once.

Yes, perfectly legal to take 5 as a supreme command. The army shares the chaos keyword.

Second, allegiances do not count as a faction, simply a keyword.

To be chaos daemonz every unit in the detachment must be CHAOS and DAEMON.

Sokhar wrote:
Reece was pretty explicit in saying more than once that you need to have the Chaos faction keyword and be a Daemon (ie have the Daemon keyword). If he meant have both the Chaos and the Daemon faction keywords, why wouldn't he have said that?

*re-reads the comments* Wait wha- I'm dumb and blind.

also - yay, I can run heldrakes again.

Does this elude to Daemon engines being in Chaos Daemon Codex I wonder... There's a chance. Just like daemon troops got added to CSM, why not daemon engines to CD?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Second, allegiances do not count as a faction, simply a keyword.

Just to be clear so there's no confusion that should be "Allegiances do not count as a faction for the purposes of Objective Secured".
They are still a Faction Keyword for detachment and army construction.

What do you guys think is the best ranged Chaos Daemon (wink) we have out of these:
1. Defiler
2. Obliterators
3. Forgefiens
4. Lord of skulls ()

Obliterators. It's not even close.

I don't understand the obsec rules people are mentioning, could someone explain which units get obsec and which don't?

All Troop units in a <Faction> Detachment get ObSec

Problem now is that it is not defined what <Faction> is and that some have a problem do understand that, for example, some Detachment cannot get the Chaos Legion Bonus and ObSec at the same time.

Like Berserker played as Troops from the Index WE list get ObSec but won't get the Legion bonus

A CSM Detachment with Daemon Troops get ObSec but not the Legion bonus

etc

That last part is wrong. A CSM Detachment with daemon troops will NOT have obsec.

yeah wrong wording, as you will play it as Chaos Detachment
I forgot that CSM as now the name and not Heretic Astrates

Hope it's ok to post a list in here... this is what I'm looking at currently, mostly to make use of my vast amount of Nurgle Daemons:

Nurgle

Battalion detachment x2: Chaos Daemons

Winged Daemon Prince Of Chaos: Malefic Talons 180

Winged Daemon Prince Of Chaos: Malefic Talons 180

Herald Of Nurgle 70

Herald Of Nurgle 70

Epidemius 100

30 Plaguebearers: Daemonic Icon; Instrument of Chaos 235

30 Plaguebearers: Daemonic Icon; Instrument of Chaos 235

12 Plaguebearers: Instrument of Chaos 94

3 Nurglings 60

3 Nurglings 60

3 Nurglings 60

Outrider detachment: Heretic Astartes

Winged Daemon Prince Of Chaos: Malefic Talons 180

Foetid Bloat-Drone 158

Foetid Bloat-Drone 158

Foetid Bloat-Drone 158

1,998 points

Not really a bleeding edge tournament list, but I think it seems pretty strong overall. Any thoughts (keeping in mind I've barely played since 6th edition)?

 kodos wrote:
yeah wrong wording, as you will play it as Chaos Detachment
I forgot that CSM as now the name and not Heretic Astrates

Chaos is not a detachment and does not receive objective secured, so this is still wrong.

You have these options for Chaos:

<Legion>
<Chaos Daemon>

to be Chaos Daemon every unit must have the CHAOS and DAEMON faction, but CHAOS is not a valid faction for objective secured.

Is there now an official list what count as Faction or still just the ITC restriction?

ITC/Nova spoke with GW and released their list of factions.

So, currently it's only an ITC official list but you can assume it comes with some approval from GW. Whether you want to do that or not, or agree with it, is your choice.

It is just that some tournaments here still don't care what ITC say, no matter if they have direct contact or not

So without a list from GW it can still be different for some tournaments here.

Yeah, again, believe whatever you'd like.

For all the major tournaments it's likely they'll be adopting this format. Fighting the "its just some TOS!!!" mentality won't go far if you're trying to play competitively, but if you're casual or only doing small events, do whatever you want.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 kodos wrote:
yeah wrong wording, as you will play it as Chaos Detachment
I forgot that CSM as now the name and not Heretic Astrates

Chaos is not a detachment and does not receive objective secured, so this is still wrong.

You have these options for Chaos:

<Legion>
<Chaos Daemon>

to be Chaos Daemon every unit must have the CHAOS and DAEMON faction, but CHAOS is not a valid faction for objective secured.

And again, that is not what Reece's explanation regarding Daemons says. He explicitly said that you have to have the Chaos FACTION Keyword, obviously, but then only said that said model also has to be a Daemon (ie have a Daemon keyword). He reiterated that point multiple times and every single time he said Chaos FACTION keyword, but never once said Daemon FACTION keyword. Unless he somehow got lazy in his explanation to three different people, this means that Daemon can just be a regular keyword instead of a faction keyword, allowing us to use CSM Daemon units in one of our detachments and still get ObSec, as long as every unit is a Daemon.

<Chaos> Is not a listed faction.

If the entire detachment is Chaos/Daemons, you are <Chaos Daemons>

If your entire detachment is intended to be <Legion> you may not include <Chaos Daemons>, without a <Legion>, if you do you are no longer battleforged.

Similarly, if you included <Legion> that ARE both Chaos and Daemon in a <Chaos Daemon> detachment, they do not benefit from their <Legion> traits, but it IS battleforged.

Interesting that that directly contradicts what Reecius says here, multiple times, which was posted the same day.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/15/itc-obsec-factoin-keyword-list/

The interpretation you posted makes more sense to me based on what seems to be the intent, though it's not what Reece himself said more than once, even after people said "So I can use CSM Daemon Engines in a Daemon detachment and still get ObSec for my Troops in that detachment."

There may be confusion here, because what I'm saying is NOT contradicting Reece, at all. I got my confirming from him, and I'm "Ujayim" on their threads. My above post clarifies exactly how these interactions work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an example, I'll break it down even further.

Chaos OBLITERATORS Have the following FACTION keywords.

Chaos, <Mark>, Daemon, Heretic Astartes and Legion.

A Maulerfiend has the FACTION keywords:

Chaos, Mark, Heretic Astartes and Legion.

Now, the Maulerfiend has the KEYWORD "Daemon", but not the FACTION Keyword.

If you want to include unit of OBLITERATORS in a CHAOS DAEMON faction, it's valid, however they receive no Legion traits.

You cannot, however, include a Maulerfiend, as it does not have the FACTION keyword of Daemon, only the descriptor keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Possessed, Mutilators and Obliterators are very unique as they are some of the ONLY units in the CSM Codex that have the faction keyword of Daemon. It's very important to distinguish the faction keywords from the generic keywords.

I just double checked, and while I was surprised that Obliterators do in fact have the daemon faction keyword, Possessed and Mutilators have their daemon keyword in the generic category. Makes me wonder if there's a mistake since you'd think all of the Cult of Destruction units would be in the same category.

Right, just Obliterators, then. I was going back and forth from books. My bad.

Also a bit odd is that the FW daemon characters don't have the daemon faction keyword, but it's FW, so nothing their rules writers do should be seen as all that odd.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Also a bit odd is that the FW daemon characters don't have the daemon faction keyword, but it's FW, so nothing their rules writers do should be seen as all that odd.

That's been faqd.

I would guess that oblitorators having faction daemon is a mistake. Makes no sense being different to mutilators.

Reece confirmed for me explicitly on Facebook and on the FLG website that as long as a unit has both the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon normal keyword, under ITC that is enough to count as Chaos Daemons for purposes of a detachment with ObSec troops.

 Virules wrote:
Reece confirmed for me explicitly on Facebook and on the FLG website that as long as a unit has both the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon normal keyword, under ITC that is enough to count as Chaos Daemons for purposes of a detachment with ObSec troops.

So... daemon engines in chaos daemon detachments are a go? This is all incredibly confusing.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Reece confirmed for me explicitly on Facebook and on the FLG website that as long as a unit has both the Chaos faction keyword and the Daemon normal keyword, under ITC that is enough to count as Chaos Daemons for purposes of a detachment with ObSec troops.

So... daemon engines in chaos daemon detachments are a go? This is all incredibly confusing.

Based on what Reece has said in the comments of the Frontline Gaming article and what Virules has said he confirmed on Facebook, yes, you can include Daemon Engines in a Chaos Daemons detachment and still have ObSec. It seems a little unintuitive (unless they're planning to include CSM units with the Daemon trait in the Chaos Daemons book, as they did including the Daemon troops in the CSM book), probably owing to them making "Chaos" and "Daemon" faction keywords separate, but it's legal.

Played Nurgle vs nids. Tabled them turn 3 and lost a grand total of 1 model.
Drakes charged all of his shooting turn 1. Genestealers managed to kill a plaguebearer. Scabby oneshotted Swarmlord and Tyrannocyte (vomited on a charging swamlord for 7 wounds and 3 attacks each in melee). Epidemius got to +1 attack and the plaguebearers became a murder horde that can't be killed.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Played Nurgle vs nids. Tabled them turn 3 and lost a grand total of 1 model.
Drakes charged all of his shooting turn 1. Genestealers managed to kill a plaguebearer. Scabby oneshotted Swarmlord and Tyrannocyte (vomited on a charging swamlord for 7 wounds and 3 attacks each in melee). Epidemius got to +1 attack and the plaguebearers became a murder horde that can't be killed.

What was your list?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
<Chaos> Is not a listed faction.

If the entire detachment is Chaos/Daemons, you are <Chaos Daemons>

If your entire detachment is intended to be <Legion> you may not include <Chaos Daemons>, without a <Legion>, if you do you are no longer battleforged.

Similarly, if you included <Legion> that ARE both Chaos and Daemon in a <Chaos Daemon> detachment, they do not benefit from their <Legion> traits, but it IS battleforged.

So the idea with a Vanguard Detachment of a Heretic Astartes HQ and 3x Oblits to get for e.g. Alpha Legion Keyword does not work?
Or does it work because Oblits have Heretic Astartes and Daemon keyword....sorry that im asking again. As a new player it is hard for me to follow all this things.

It works because everything is Detachment based

A Heretic Astartes Vanguard Detachment with Alpha Legion Trait and a Chaos Daemon Detachment for ObSec always works

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
<Chaos> Is not a listed faction.

If the entire detachment is Chaos/Daemons, you are <Chaos Daemons>

If your entire detachment is intended to be <Legion> you may not include <Chaos Daemons>, without a <Legion>, if you do you are no longer battleforged.

Similarly, if you included <Legion> that ARE both Chaos and Daemon in a <Chaos Daemon> detachment, they do not benefit from their <Legion> traits, but it IS battleforged.

So the idea with a Vanguard Detachment of a Heretic Astartes HQ and 3x Oblits to get for e.g. Alpha Legion Keyword does not work?
Or does it work because Oblits have Heretic Astartes and Daemon keyword....sorry that im asking again. As a new player it is hard for me to follow all this things.

That would count as they all have the <legion> keyword. Of course in this instance it doesn't matter as there are no troops.
This is house ruling for tournaments anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.. It's simple unless you start mixing Chaos Marine and Daemon stuff in the same detachment.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Played Nurgle vs nids. Tabled them turn 3 and lost a grand total of 1 model.
Drakes charged all of his shooting turn 1. Genestealers managed to kill a plaguebearer. Scabby oneshotted Swarmlord and Tyrannocyte (vomited on a charging swamlord for 7 wounds and 3 attacks each in melee). Epidemius got to +1 attack and the plaguebearers became a murder horde that can't be killed.

What was your list?

Batallion:
Epidemius
Herald

Nurglings
Nurglings
30 Plaguebearers instrument

plague drones
plague drones (just take more plaguebearers instead :p)

Heldrake baleflamer
Heldrake baleflamer

Supreme command:
malefic lord
malefic lord
DP

Superheavy:

Scabby.

Heldrakes get in there turn 1 and their kills count for epidemius. Nurglings block deepstrike and capture objectives. Everyone else just goes slowly and doesn't die. Really simple army to use strategically. It all comes down to tactical decisions.

Nice! How is scabby performing?

Well he will kill anything he touches. Also his flamer is amazing. Also casts 3 powers. Also really hard for him to die. I'd say he's preeeeetty good. The only thing preventing me for taking him more is because I want to take more different things

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well he will kill anything he touches. Also his flamer is amazing. Also casts 3 powers. Also really hard for him to die. I'd say he's preeeeetty good. The only thing preventing me for taking him more is because I want to take more different things

Glad to hear it! Been sitting on my shelf for years and he needs to get out... any changes you'd make to the list? I'm planning something very similar.

Is Scabby the big GUO that Forgeworld makes? I really need to get that model as the current GW version of the GUO really is missing the G (he's smaller than a Daemon Prince if the pictures are any indication).

The Glottkin make a good stand in for him.

So questions on the Giant Chaos Spawn unit...

1) It says " At the start of each turn, the Giant Chaos Spawn mutable..."
What is "each turn"? Is it...
a) Player 1's is a "turn" and Player's 2 is a "turn"? or...
b) Both Player 1's and 2's is a "turn"?

2) If it gets to greater than 19 wounds, it games the keyword of <Titanic>. That just allows the model to walk over enemy models... right? Are there other Titanic abilities?

Each players turn. Only when you use that stat. IE you won't ever use the movement roll on your opponents turn.

 whembly wrote:
So questions on the Giant Chaos Spawn unit...

1) It says " At the start of each turn, the Giant Chaos Spawn mutable..."
What is "each turn"? Is it...
a) Player 1's is a "turn" and Player's 2 is a "turn"? or...
b) Both Player 1's and 2's is a "turn"?

2) If it gets to greater than 19 wounds, it games the keyword of <Titanic>. That just allows the model to walk over enemy models... right? Are there other Titanic abilities?

A really quick perusal of the rulebook would have cleared this up. Turn refers to player turn, so your option A. Your option B would be considered a battle round. So one battle round consists of two player turns. You roll for the mutable stats on the Spawn on each turn when they're used--on your turn you can roll for all 3 stats (and potentially heal/grow 3 times) on a turn you're charging into combat; on your opponent's turn you could only roll for 2 at most, if the Spawn is locked in combat.

Your second question I'm not 100% on, but I believe Titanic is just a designator keyword, I don't believe it confers any abilities like the ignoring intervening models like you asked, but I could be wrong. The big thing is that certain weapons inflict more damage vs models with Titanic, to help chew up those really big (usually) super--heavy models. The Giant Spawn getting Titanic is more about making them more vulnerable to huge guns if they swell up to enormous size.

Yeah, the Titanic keyword is only a bad thing from all the rules that effect it (there aren't really that many anyways) that I can see.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well he will kill anything he touches. Also his flamer is amazing. Also casts 3 powers. Also really hard for him to die. I'd say he's preeeeetty good. The only thing preventing me for taking him more is because I want to take more different things

Glad to hear it! Been sitting on my shelf for years and he needs to get out... any changes you'd make to the list? I'm planning something very similar.

Plague Drones are overpriced still(they haven't got a price drop yet and they will when the dex comes out). So probably them into more plaguebearers or maybe summoning. Turn 1 drakes, turn 2 summoning, turn 3 the rest of the army.

EDIT: Wrong thread.

I'm mostly sad about losing obsec if I want to keep my Malefic lords. I guess I can use Heralds of Tzeentch instead but they're not nearly as cheap.

knas wrote:
I'm mostly sad about losing obsec if I want to keep my Malefic lords. I guess I can use Heralds of Tzeentch instead but they're not nearly as cheap.

As far as i understood it, taking a Supreme Command Detachment with 3-5 Lords, will not deny you ObSec. in general.
The Lords just cant achieve it, because they are not Troops and dont have the required <FACTION> keyword(s) for a Daemon detachment.
Any other troop, in any other detachment that has the same <FACTION> keyword(s) (in this detachment), will still be able to get ObSec..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also tested a combo play with a unit Oblits and Belakor.

I played another Tzeentch Daemon player.

- Death Hex on LoC, failed deny
- Prescience on Oblits (LoC was protected by changeling), no more deny possible
- Oblits +2/-3/2, 8 Hits, 8 Wounds LoC dead turn 1(was on full health)

Of course this all comes down to the failed deny of Death Hex and Prescience.
I made all other psykers first to sort out as many possible denies as possible.
Then Death Hex and Prescience, where i should have casted Death Hex as last power.

IMO Oblits (195pts.) are better than a 256pt. unit of Scarab Occult Terminators.
The buff from Assault2 ---> Assault4 makes them really strong.
Also the fact, that their weapons, with possible 9S/-3AP/3DMG have the assault weapon trait.
So no -1, cause if you look at the possible value it could easily be a heavy weapon.

knas wrote:
I'm mostly sad about losing obsec if I want to keep my Malefic lords. I guess I can use Heralds of Tzeentch instead but they're not nearly as cheap.

Well it's obsec, those command points or a malefic lord going in that slot. I think what most people are currently doing is just using cultists for their obsec needs. Perhaps when the daemons codex comes out there may be a more compelling choice.

This cutie is coming out for AoS. PLEASE give him 40k rules and give Nurgle a chariot

Not happy with the AoS Nurgle. It means Death Guard preorders are ANOTHER week away damn it...

Pfft silly humans can wait. Snaily the Snail is kickass

Only question is do I use that for my giant spawn over morbidex...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well he will kill anything he touches. Also his flamer is amazing. Also casts 3 powers. Also really hard for him to die. I'd say he's preeeeetty good. The only thing preventing me for taking him more is because I want to take more different things

Glad to hear it! Been sitting on my shelf for years and he needs to get out... any changes you'd make to the list? I'm planning something very similar.

Plague Drones are overpriced still(they haven't got a price drop yet and they will when the dex comes out). So probably them into more plaguebearers or maybe summoning. Turn 1 drakes, turn 2 summoning, turn 3 the rest of the army.

Thanks for all the info on this. Would you play the list without the drakes? I'm planning something similar, but with more princes and plaguebearers. My concern then is that I don't have enough punch to take out the bigger stuff.

Well now I'm waiting for the Death Guard Codex, which should have Nurgle daemons along with pts price drops

Dumb question inbound...

Does Aetaos'rau'keres get that "Aligned deamon" psychic power too? Unless I'm missing something, he is a Deamon of Tzeentch and a psyker, thus has access to this power. Right?

Weaver of Fates power giving him 2++ invuln save??

If so, I have a tactic question...

Would it be better to have Magnus use this power to bump his invuln save to 3++ and have both Aetaos and Maggie go to town?

Or, should I have Aetoas be the aggressive scary one with a 2++ invuln save and have him go to town?

not 1 but 2 mistakes:

1. He's not Heretic Astartes
2. Invul save can never be better than 3++ with that power

With the new power it makes Magnus significantly more viable. I'll likely be using him in my RTT next weekend.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
not 1 but 2 mistakes:

1. He's not Heretic Astartes
2. Invul save can never be better than 3++ with that power

Goes to show that I need my codex. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
With the new power it makes Magnus significantly more viable. I'll likely be using him in my RTT next weekend.

I'm bringing him to my GT tourny this weekend.

 whembly wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
not 1 but 2 mistakes:

1. He's not Heretic Astartes
2. Invul save can never be better than 3++ with that power

Goes to show that I need my codex. Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
With the new power it makes Magnus significantly more viable. I'll likely be using him in my RTT next weekend.

I'm bringing him to my GT tourny this weekend.

Good luck!

I've been a fan of not using him, but access to these new spells seems like just the extra bump he needed to me.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
With the new power it makes Magnus significantly more viable. I'll likely be using him in my RTT next weekend.

Hope your first turn rolls are better than mine. I had Magnus for a tournament last weekend....I lost the roll off for first turn twice, and the one time I won, my opponent seized. :-( One game he won single-handedly, the second game he died turn 3 after failing a modest charge to leap over the screening unit and tear up a Land Raider Terminus Ultra, and the third game my opponent's dice were unbelievably hot and he died turn 1 to about a dozen lascannon shots. Disheartening, to say the least.

Sokhar wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
With the new power it makes Magnus significantly more viable. I'll likely be using him in my RTT next weekend.

Hope your first turn rolls are better than mine. I had Magnus for a tournament last weekend....I lost the roll off for first turn twice, and the one time I won, my opponent seized. :-( One game he won single-handedly, the second game he died turn 3 after failing a modest charge to leap over the screening unit and tear up a Land Raider Terminus Ultra, and the third game my opponent's dice were unbelievably hot and he died turn 1 to about a dozen lascannon shots. Disheartening, to say the least.

Yeah, that's my main concern. He just fething dies. I haven't decided for sure yet.

Heh... I just realized how good Aetaos' staff is...

It states:
This weapon can be fired within 1" of an enemy unit and can target
enemy units within 1" of friendly models.

He can still shoot units even if the unit is in combat. Jeez...

Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

 whembly wrote:
Heh... I just realized how good Aetaos' staff is...

It states:
This weapon can be fired within 1" of an enemy unit and can target
enemy units within 1" of friendly models.

He can still shoot units even if the unit is in combat. Jeez...

And it's an assault weapon. So turn 1 he can advance and still hit on 3's, while moving 20 + D6". And continue shooting that thing even while he's engaged in close combat where he can massacre hordes and big models equally well.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

I got the *real* Aetaos model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sokhar wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Heh... I just realized how good Aetaos' staff is...

It states:
This weapon can be fired within 1" of an enemy unit and can target
enemy units within 1" of friendly models.

He can still shoot units even if the unit is in combat. Jeez...

And it's an assault weapon. So turn 1 he can advance and still hit on 3's, while moving 20 + D6". And continue shooting that thing even while he's engaged in close combat where he can massacre hordes and big models equally well.

Erm... how does he massacre hordes? He only has 6 attacks at full strength. Unless you're referring to the fact that he can shoot whilst in combat?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

Can I put my LoC on a tiny box instead?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

Can I put my LoC on a tiny box instead?

If I were the TO I wouldn't ever allow it. The difference in size between the model is 3" in height and many more in width.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

You mean Aetos is banned or just subbing the smaller LoC model for him?

knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

You mean Aetos is banned or just subbing the smaller LoC model for him?

A very large ITC event banned him. This sets the possibility that for other major events (mostly LVO) that he will be banned again.

It's not set in stone, it's just likely. Unless you have a very solid budget, I would not invest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, for the millionth time, anyone who uses a LoC for his model is a dick and shouldn't be allowed to do it.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

You mean Aetos is banned or just subbing the smaller LoC model for him?

A very large ITC event banned him. This sets the possibility that for other major events (mostly LVO) that he will be banned again.

It's not set in stone, it's just likely. Unless you have a very solid budget, I would not invest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, for the millionth time, anyone who uses a LoC for his model is a dick and shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Damn, is it because of possible exploiting or just being too good for his price?

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

You mean Aetos is banned or just subbing the smaller LoC model for him?

A very large ITC event banned him. This sets the possibility that for other major events (mostly LVO) that he will be banned again.

It's not set in stone, it's just likely. Unless you have a very solid budget, I would not invest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, for the millionth time, anyone who uses a LoC for his model is a dick and shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Damn, is it because of possible exploiting or just being too good for his price?

I don't think he's TOO good. He's just good. I think people are babies and don't like when models are too hard to kill, or are too big compared to their armies.

More casual players will just get annoyed they're not boltering him to death, and competitive players will likely find a way to kill him. It's a pretty big shift between the two.

Well... I'm bringing him to a tourny (where they've capped units to PL35).

Any idea what that other poster meant that Aetaos "murders" hordes??? I think I'm missing something...

Aetaos only has 6 attacks at full strength. o.O

 whembly wrote:
Well... I'm bringing him to a tourny (where they've capped units to PL35).

Any idea what that other poster meant that Aetaos "murders" hordes??? I think I'm missing something...

Aetaos only has 6 attacks at full strength. o.O

Massacre might have been a bit of an overstatement vs hordes, but the ability for his claws to inflict 3 mortal wounds (which spill over from one model to the next) helps him kill more stuff than just his raw attacks value would indicate. Not as well as Zarakynel would, but Aetao has the sweet shooting attack that can still be used while in close combat.

I'm hoping aetaos doesn't get banned, while not off the charts op, he's definitely a staple in my list and I'm not sure what replaces him if he gets banned. Magnus just doesn't cut it, yes his save is technically better with the Weaver of fate spell but he also takes more wounds from multi damage weapons hands down from being t7 instead of t8, add on him being less than 20 wounds, and without the amazing gun. Just doesn't work. What to do if yes banned...


As a side note I'm using a third party counts as with a very well done base that zero people have complained about that clock my aetaos in at 8 5/6" in height and an 8" wingspan. I know actual model is 9.5" tall but I feel I got it close enough without the base looking like a ridiculous skyscraper xD

Ecdain wrote:
I'm hoping aetaos doesn't get banned, while not off the charts op, he's definitely a staple in my list and I'm not sure what replaces him if he gets banned. Magnus just doesn't cut it, yes his save is technically better with the Weaver of fate spell but he also takes more wounds from multi damage weapons hands down from being t7 instead of t8, add on him being less than 20 wounds, and without the amazing gun. Just doesn't work. What to do if yes banned...


As a side note I'm using a third party counts as with a very well done base that zero people have complained about that clock my aetaos in at 8 5/6" in height and an 8" wingspan. I know actual model is 9.5" tall but I feel I got it close enough without the base looking like a ridiculous skyscraper xD

I would hope that if someone did have an issue with it, you would instantly concede the point as you even just now admit there is an inch of difference.

In 7th it wouldnt matter, as you measure things from the base. In 8th, you measure LOS from any point on the model. You using a smaller model is actively modeling for advantage, as you do not have the appropriate dimensions for the model and are reducing your hitbox as a result.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
I'm hoping aetaos doesn't get banned, while not off the charts op, he's definitely a staple in my list and I'm not sure what replaces him if he gets banned. Magnus just doesn't cut it, yes his save is technically better with the Weaver of fate spell but he also takes more wounds from multi damage weapons hands down from being t7 instead of t8, add on him being less than 20 wounds, and without the amazing gun. Just doesn't work. What to do if yes banned...


As a side note I'm using a third party counts as with a very well done base that zero people have complained about that clock my aetaos in at 8 5/6" in height and an 8" wingspan. I know actual model is 9.5" tall but I feel I got it close enough without the base looking like a ridiculous skyscraper xD

I would hope that if someone did have an issue with it, you would instantly concede the point as you even just now admit there is an inch of difference.

In 7th it wouldnt matter, as you measure things from the base. In 8th, you measure LOS from any point on the model. You using a smaller model is actively modeling for advantage, as you do not have the appropriate dimensions for the model and are reducing your hitbox as a result.

It it was ever an issue I wouldn't have brought it as I send pictures in specifically to ask about my counts as to make they are perfectly legal, and if you want to get really technical I am 1/2"+1/6" off, not a whole inch, the fw LoC model is NOT sold as aetaos so it's nothing more than general agreement that that is probably what he is(yes he probably is but it's not sold as such so I can make this argument), also in a game or modeling and painting, rule of cool does have a huge impact. I am not taking a gw LoC at 2.5" too short. I looked long and hard for a properly sized and great looking model and not a single person, opponent, judge organizer or bystander has had anything but great things to say about him. And honestly if you are trying to take a model I clearly put a huge amount of work into off the table due to less than an inch in height difference, even though the wings are a full inch wider in span I'd pack up and apologize for wasting your time and not play you again casually (as again, in tourney's I send in pictures for pre approval so no matter how my opponent bitches i know I'm good). Sorry if that sounded aggressive, but he's already impossible to hide behind anything but the largest of full Loss blocking pieces, less than an inch in height can't even be considered modeling for advantage at that point because it gives you no advantage.

On a slightly more constructive note, what model are you using as your counts-as? I have a Creature Caster Vulture Demon that is just shy of 9" tall, so he's in the right ballpark--he has a much slimmer profile though, with his wings extended upward rather than out wide. I think I'd just concede that if you want to draw line of sight to him, you probably can, because I haven't seen too many tournament terrain pieces that provide over 9" of vertical line of sight blocking.

The argument that the "Forgeworld Greater Lord of Change" is not "Aetaos'rau'keres, Greater Lord of Change" is certainly an argument you CAN make, but it's a very bad one. It happens all the time, though.

In the end, you're correct. It comes down to the TO.

My comment came from yours, where you listed the size, so I will happily concede that now that you've provided better context and that the model is much closer in size than before, I would likely okay the model if it was up to me.

I'm a pretty staunch "GW/FW models only, Conversions must be as close to exact as possible" proponent, and in the instance of 30+ PL, 700+pt Mega Models, that opinion is even Harsher.

I understand that may be frustrating, and I take no offense at you coming off as aggressive. The burden of a conversion is not on your opponent to accept it, but for you to provide an appropriate model.

To add a little more context here, even I have considered converting an Aetaos. I'm not AGAINST Converting an Aetaos. I just want to make sure it's being done fairly if it's happening at all. I was going to convert an Archaon.

I am looking at converting a Nagash, myself. I think it will fit with my Night Lords aesthetic much better and it seems size wise I can make it work pretty well (with the added wings from a zombie dragon).

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The argument that the "Forgeworld Greater Lord of Change" is not "Aetaos'rau'keres, Greater Lord of Change" is certainly an argument you CAN make, but it's a very bad one. It happens all the time, though.

In the end, you're correct. It comes down to the TO.

My comment came from yours, where you listed the size, so I will happily concede that now that you've provided better context and that the model is much closer in size than before, I would likely okay the model if it was up to me.

I'm a pretty staunch "GW/FW models only, Conversions must be as close to exact as possible" proponent, and in the instance of 30+ PL, 700+pt Mega Models, that opinion is even Harsher.

I understand that may be frustrating, and I take no offense at you coming off as aggressive. The burden of a conversion is not on your opponent to accept it, but for you to provide an appropriate model.

To add a little more context here, even I have considered converting an Aetaos. I'm not AGAINST Converting an Aetaos. I just want to make sure it's being done fairly if it's happening at all. I was going to convert an Archaon.

I generally agree with a slight add on that conversions, to the best of your ability without ruining the model, need a minimum 25% gw plastic, for mine I was actually going to give him a second wings from the gw LoC to both add height and get plastic. But it would just look framed together so I opted out of that option. For my other counts as such as giant chaos spawn it's easier as AoS has fantastic counts as (mutalith for my tzeentch and morbidex for my nurgle). But with aetaos' I really did search for a solid 2-3 months for the best counts as I could find as I hate the fw LoC(looks too lanky and wings have practically no feather detail). I understand bad counts as are basically just proxies that shouldn't be used outside friendly games but I put really effort into mine and most of the time at a higher cost than the actual model(looking at you giant chaos spawn)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sokhar wrote:
On a slightly more constructive note, what model are you using as your counts-as? I have a Creature Caster Vulture Demon that is just shy of 9" tall, so he's in the right ballpark--he has a much slimmer profile though, with his wings extended upward rather than out wide. I think I'd just concede that if you want to draw line of sight to him, you probably can, because I haven't seen too many tournament terrain pieces that provide over 9" of vertical line of sight blocking.

Proteanc, Fickle Lord of Uroboros from mierce miniatures. He clocks in a bit short(6.75") but my brother did an amazing job hiking him up on a demonic cliff using pink foam, small obsidian pieces, and green stuff fire sculpting to make up for the height. Which is a main reason I don't raise his base more, can't have it so high he's on a skyscraper xD gak would be silly.

I think all the things we've discussed have been very constructive, well done internet.

Also I think using Nagash is an interesting take, and he's likely large enough.

I also like nagash, he seems like a great counts as with some wings. I might convert the head to a bird but I don't play night lords

Ecdain wrote:
I also like nagash, he seems like a great counts as with some wings. I might convert the head to a bird but I don't play night lords

I think I'm going to use the bat-like skull from the Mortarchs. It actually fits quite well.

Sokhar wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Well... I'm bringing him to a tourny (where they've capped units to PL35).

Any idea what that other poster meant that Aetaos "murders" hordes??? I think I'm missing something...

Aetaos only has 6 attacks at full strength. o.O

Massacre might have been a bit of an overstatement vs hordes, but the ability for his claws to inflict 3 mortal wounds (which spill over from one model to the next) helps him kill more stuff than just his raw attacks value would indicate. Not as well as Zarakynel would, but Aetao has the sweet shooting attack that can still be used while in close combat.

didn't realize that they were mortal wounds. Up to 18 mortal wounds is kinda knarly (if you roll six 6s that is).

Thanks!!

Ecdain wrote:

Proteanc, Fickle Lord of Uroboros from mierce miniatures.

Nice! Never seen that model before, he's really cool. Definitely seems appropriate in his look for Aetao. I didn't purchase the Creature Caster demon for the purpose of proxying Aetao, just supported the Never-Ending Kickstarter Campaign years back, and trying to find a use for the models I got stuck with.

Speaking of Magnus conversions, someone at the tournament I attended last weekend had the sweetest Magnus I've seen. Used Nagash as the base for the floating/flying portion of him, had the 30K Heresy Magnus body, a daemonic head added on, and even had LED lights in the chest. Pretty spectacular, if costly conversion.

Ecdain wrote:
I'm hoping aetaos doesn't get banned, while not off the charts op, he's definitely a staple in my list and I'm not sure what replaces him if he gets banned. Magnus just doesn't cut it, yes his save is technically better with the Weaver of fate spell but he also takes more wounds from multi damage weapons hands down from being t7 instead of t8, add on him being less than 20 wounds, and without the amazing gun. Just doesn't work. What to do if yes banned...


As a side note I'm using a third party counts as with a very well done base that zero people have complained about that clock my aetaos in at 8 5/6" in height and an 8" wingspan. I know actual model is 9.5" tall but I feel I got it close enough without the base looking like a ridiculous skyscraper xD

So almost every top placing daemons list having Magnus means everyone is stupid I guess... They are clearly not seeing something you are.
You cannot argue with results...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the character lists will soon be geting the bat taken to them as per FLG, like the fliers lists. Whamp whump..........

For like the nth time, No, Magnus isn't necessary. Stop talking down to people about pointing out his flaws, Rvd. You do it almost every single time someone mentions it.

He isn't necessary. He dies. He's strong, he can carry you, he isn't required.

It's just a single unit. Let it go.

So I had my first game of 8th. I was 2000pt against Dark Eldar.

I ran:
Supreme command detachment with
Magnus
GUO
X3 Nurgle princes with wings and claws
6 flamers

Battalion detachment with:
Changling
x2 tzeentch heralds on foot with staff
3 units of blue horrors (I do not have any brimstones yet)
x2 flaming chariots

I do not have his army list but it consisted of:
multiple units of 5 scourges that deepstruck in with their dark lances
many HQs with the forcefield that grants a 2+ invul until it fails and a nasty pistol that causes multiple wounds
each HQ was next to the court- units of 4 or 5 with 4 wounds each and multiple attacks each
extra units of witches

Overall I lost, far more to my poor tactics than the army. He got the first turn and poured all his dark lance fire and other firepower into Magnus who only survived because of the Changeling. The GUO also took damage. I was too overconfident in my CC abilities. I moved forward too fast and fluffed my charge roles meaning only one prince made it into melee. Because his courts had multiple wounds or the HQ would transfer wounds to them that he failed they were able to absorb the damage and take them apart gradually. My smiting diminished his firepower considerably by the second turn, but the remainder and short range weapons were able to do enough to finish Magnus off (who I failed to cast warp time with) and do damage to the GUO which meant that he was able to finish off the GUO on the charge.

The horrors and the changeling did their jobs. The chariots were fairly lacklustre. I wanted them against tanks but I did not face any. The flamers did a good job dishing out massive amounts of hits. However his units were able to absorb a lot of their damage and were able to pin then in a charge.

What did I learn? When facing a close combat army has a good movement only move just into smite range at first and then move closer for charges in later turns. Positioning correctly for charges is crucial. Unless I make an attack with overwhelming force by my strong units they will get bogged down.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Ecdain wrote:
I'm hoping aetaos doesn't get banned, while not off the charts op, he's definitely a staple in my list and I'm not sure what replaces him if he gets banned. Magnus just doesn't cut it, yes his save is technically better with the Weaver of fate spell but he also takes more wounds from multi damage weapons hands down from being t7 instead of t8, add on him being less than 20 wounds, and without the amazing gun. Just doesn't work. What to do if yes banned...


As a side note I'm using a third party counts as with a very well done base that zero people have complained about that clock my aetaos in at 8 5/6" in height and an 8" wingspan. I know actual model is 9.5" tall but I feel I got it close enough without the base looking like a ridiculous skyscraper xD

So almost every top placing daemons list having Magnus means everyone is stupid I guess... They are clearly not seeing something you are.
You cannot argue with results...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the character lists will soon be geting the bat taken to them as per FLG, like the fliers lists. Whamp whump..........

Well in my list he doesn't fit, just cause he's good doesn't make him an auto include in any Daemon list, for example my list is reactionary, i wait for you to act first most of the time. Basically what this means is I don't always want to charge gung ho, and if you don't do that with Magnus you are wasting points by taking a target that doesn't do anything. He's really good don't get me wrong, but he doesn't fit the role that aetaos does in my list due to the lack of any ranged threat apart from an upped smite.

If I were to use magnus, it would be in a much more aggressive list that has more choice for the enemy to shoot at than just the big man himself. The lists using him understand his weaknesses and build accordingly, they don't just throw him there cause "Magnus op" xD

Validate my purchase!

Also, hot damn, where are those Death Guard previews at. All we have is an announcement and then silence for 4 days :/

Jefantos wrote:
So I had my first game of 8th. I was 2000pt against Dark Eldar.

I ran:
Supreme command detachment with
Magnus
GUO
X3 Nurgle princes with wings and claws
6 flamers

Battalion detachment with:
Changling
x2 tzeentch heralds on foot with staff
3 units of blue horrors (I do not have any brimstones yet)
x2 flaming chariots

I do not have his army list but it consisted of:
multiple units of 5 scourges that deepstruck in with their dark lances
many HQs with the forcefield that grants a 2+ invul until it fails and a nasty pistol that causes multiple wounds
each HQ was next to the court- units of 4 or 5 with 4 wounds each and multiple attacks each
extra units of witches

Overall I lost, far more to my poor tactics than the army. He got the first turn and poured all his dark lance fire and other firepower into Magnus who only survived because of the Changeling. The GUO also took damage. I was too overconfident in my CC abilities. I moved forward too fast and fluffed my charge roles meaning only one prince made it into melee. Because his courts had multiple wounds or the HQ would transfer wounds to them that he failed they were able to absorb the damage and take them apart gradually. My smiting diminished his firepower considerably by the second turn, but the remainder and short range weapons were able to do enough to finish Magnus off (who I failed to cast warp time with) and do damage to the GUO which meant that he was able to finish off the GUO on the charge.

The horrors and the changeling did their jobs. The chariots were fairly lacklustre. I wanted them against tanks but I did not face any. The flamers did a good job dishing out massive amounts of hits. However his units were able to absorb a lot of their damage and were able to pin then in a charge.

What did I learn? When facing a close combat army has a good movement only move just into smite range at first and then move closer for charges in later turns. Positioning correctly for charges is crucial. Unless I make an attack with overwhelming force by my strong units they will get bogged down.

Im not 100% sure, for i dont have the book in front of me, but i think you cannot put magnus in supreme command because he is lord of war.
He requieres super heavy auxilliery detachment. You should double check it.

And why cant you use FW LoC as aetao?
Not big enough??

Supreme Command is 3-5 HQ and 1 LoW.

FW LoC IS Aetao, he just chooses to use another model.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Supreme Command is 3-5 HQ and 1 LoW.

FW LoC IS Aetao, he just chooses to use another model.

Yeah, as i said. I wasnt sure. Just checked it by myself and you are right (as always ).
I just didnt use a LoW in a Supreme Command Detachment, that was why i wasnt 100% sure.
Couldnt recall it certainly.

Good to know that the FW LoC is Keres.
Some people really argue he isnt?? Wow, why that?

Another thing:
What do you guys think of Fiends of Slaanesh?
Good unit? I think -1 psychic test and not be able to fall back is an interesting thing to look at.
As a new player never played them though.

Anyone any experience in 8th Edition?

In other news, busting out this list for next weekend's local RTT.

Alpha Legion Spearhead

Slaanesh Prince w/ wings/talons and elixir
Sorc with sword/chainsword/jumppack

2x 3 Tzeentch Obliterators
1x 3 Slaanesh Obliterators

Tzeentch Batallion

Changeling
2x Herald on Disc w/ Staff

6 Exalted Flamer

5x 1 blue 9 brim
1x 1 blue 19 Brim

Supreme Command
5 Malefic Lord

Feeling really confident, look forward to giving you nerds feedback on the Obliterator inclusion.

Got placed 6th in a field of 58 players this weekend!

My list was:
-Aetaos
-Magnus

-Changeling
-TzHerald + staff
-4x Maelific Lords

-2x twelve brimmies + 1 blue
-3x three Nurglings

-6x Flamers

-2x nurgle Giant Chaos Spawns

MVP: The Giant Chaos Spawns

Thoughts on this list:
-Magnus died early but his power to bump his invulvn to 3++ helped a ton.
-Aetao did "okay". I need to be more agressive and get him into combat. Not sure he's worth the 700pts...
-Nurglings infiltrate are great for Maelstorm missions, plus they're tough little buggers.

Future thoughts... I think I'll drop Aetaos when Mortorian is released, and add 6 more Maelific lords.

Why not Tzeentch Chaos Spawns as you have the Changeling? I would assume the Changeling wastly overcompensates for the very slightly worse Tzeentch ablity.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Why not Tzeentch Chaos Spawns as you have the Changeling? I would assume the Changeling wastly overcompensates for the very slightly worse Tzeentch ablity.

I found the changeling too slow.

The nurgle giant spawns are the new distraction carnifex... and they do that exceedingly well. Plus, disgusting resiliance is golden on these guys.

I don't believe (unless I'm missing a FAQ) that giant chaos spawn get the god specific demonic powers.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I don't believe (unless I'm missing a FAQ) that giant chaos spawn get the god specific demonic powers.

It was FAQ'ed... but... I can't find it just now. :/

 whembly wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I don't believe (unless I'm missing a FAQ) that giant chaos spawn get the god specific demonic powers.

It was FAQ'ed... but... I can't find it just now. :/

I saw it about a minute after I posted that. You can find FW's FAQs on the FW website where you buy each book. https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DK/Imperial-Armour-Index-chaos-2017

Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Because your opponent will shoot at Scabby rather than the Spawn? I'm not seeing any rules synergy there outside of Scabby being able to cast Fleshy Abundance to heal the Spawn, which can be done much more cheaply with just a Daemon Prince....

Scabby gives a -1 to hit aura to Daemons of nurgle when you make it into Melee.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Scabby gives a -1 to hit aura to Daemons of nurgle when you make it into Melee.

I had a recent game with this. I think my list was something like..

Scabbie
30 PB full upgrade
3 nurgle giant spawn
5 malefic lords
3x3 nurglings
3 earthshakers
4 quad launchers

Faced DA+knight.

30PB were -2 to hit in CC, they ran face first into 5 of those mace/shield and 5 powerfist/SB TDA with a chapter master and banner dude backing them up. Dude was only hitting on 6s thanks to the unwieldy rule with PB+scabbie. He rolled a lot of 6s, but PB wore them down, and scabbie cleaned them up. Malefic lords helped quite a lot against those storm shields though. Giant spawn are better than they were in 7th by a large margin, I'm surprised FW didn't give them a point increase. Had 1 die turn 2 to heavy shooting, the other 2 lasted the entire game, chewing up marine squads like it was no ones business. Quad mortars were wasted this game, as everything but the knight was either in CC or out of range. Earthshakers were hit or miss, but when they worked, they did real work.


Has anyone had a chance to try summoning scabbie? Against a gunline army, I feel like getting a malefic lord to summon him would be better than plopping him on the table.

Giant Spawn are good for their cost, but not absurd. As single models they easily give up KPs, easily give up a HS slot for some victory conditions, and only move 3+d3 movement after taking a single wound.

They won't dominate a game, they'll just refuse to die.

To summon scabby, you need to roll rather well and unlike the 3 die roll for normal summoning, the 9 die roll doesn't get impacted as much by the Re-roll a die strategem so it's pretty much a straight up 50/50. Also almost every time the Malefic Lord will die


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you want him on the table if you run plaguebearers for the morale aura

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

Sure does. Everything.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

Sure does. Everything.

I feel it's a point that's rarely mentioned when I see mathcrafters compare the two gifts.

Question for anyone that has Imperial Armor Index Forces of Chaos.

Are Plague Toads or Pox Riders any good? I want to give my Nurgle force some more variety in units, but I don't have the Imperial Armor book yet, and can't find any info on those two units at all in 8th edition.

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 knas wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

Sure does. Everything.

I feel it's a point that's rarely mentioned when I see mathcrafters compare the two gifts.

Mathhammer only goes so far. Never use only that as a baseline.

Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Where are you seeing the NOVA updates? I didn't think BCP were sponsoring it?

Sneggy wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Where are you seeing the NOVA updates? I didn't think BCP were sponsoring it?

http://challonge.com/NOVAInvitational
https://mismatchedplay.com/2017/08/31/nova-invitational-lists/

I played my second game with daemons last night.
Back in 7th I was running both slaanesh formations with a seekerstar at the front of it.
In 8th I’ve mostly been playing Tyranids so broke my Slaanesh out for a bit of fun.

My list was:
2x daemon prince-slaanesh, talons.
2x heralds on steed
1x herald on seeker chariot
The masque

2x 24 daemonettes with instrument
13 brims and 2 blues

15 seekers with instrument
5 seekers with instrument
5 seekers with instrument

Exalted seeker chariot
Exalted flamer
5x 1 fiends

His list (from memory):
3x2 hornets with pulse lasers
4x3 scatter laser bikes
Warlock on bike
Farseer on bike
2 crimson hunter (exarchs?)


We were playing maelstrom, missions where cards=turn number.

He got first turn and obliterated all but 1 seeker. She passed morale, didn’t help she died on overwatch next turn anyway.
I ran up the board, used smite and a daemon prince charge to get both his crimson hunters down to their bottom tier. Huge whiff from my daemon prince only doing 1 wound.

He gradually killed screens and picked up characters. I spent all game failing invuls and whiffing with my exalted flamer.
Eventually managed to get him cornered and my remaining heralds and daemon prince cleaned up most of the army.
Game ended 19-18 to me on points on Turn 6. I’d have won by more on turn 5 or 7 (potentially tabling him on 7)

I found him flying out of combat and shooting me incredibly frustrating, the damonettes in particular were really struggling to do enough damage to make a difference.
Masque was largely irrelevant but that’s because her negative to hit daemonettes was pointless against a foe who posed zero combat threat. Can see her value vs punchier armies.
Really wasn’t impressed with the exalted flamer, probably need to be running more of them.
I took the fiends purely because I didn’t have more flamer models and actually found them pretty useful, more than 1 psychic power was denied/failed due to their aura. They did some decent damage in combat too. That’s vs a foe who I couldn’t actually hold in combat as his whole army had fly.
I think I’ll persevere with the fiends for a while, they are obviously not stellar but a couple might be handy.
Other big problem I had was Morale, I burnt 6 command points keeping units from being decimated by it. Considering bringing my keeper of secrets out of retirement to help.

All in all a very enjoyable game and both me and my opponent learnt a lot from it. Definitely looking forward to more with my daemons in 8th.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Sneggy wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Where are you seeing the NOVA updates? I didn't think BCP were sponsoring it?

http://challonge.com/NOVAInvitational
https://mismatchedplay.com/2017/08/31/nova-invitational-lists/

Thanks man, some of those are just ridiculous. I'm a bit dissapointed tbh. the netlist is running the show, usually theres a player or two with something a bit off the wall hanging in there too.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Nova invitational is literally Daemons/CSM/Renegades vs Astra Militarum/Ministorum/Telepathica.
After the 2nd round of eliminations, no other faction is in the bracket. Oh boy, who's ready for the nerfbat?
5 pts brimstones, 69 pts malefics... That's my prediction

Brimstones aren't even the issue in any of these armies. They're just all "soup" abominations taking things from everywhere.

Malefic lords are absolute an issue, sure, but the Brimstones are nowhere near the abusive unit.

Well Reece is of a different opinion and 9 times out of 10 what he says - goes, sooner or later. So RIP Brimstones.

Reece is a human and is capable of both bias and being wrong. These lists have very minimum additions of less than 40 Horrors, they are not the abuse in the armies.

Oh god Brimstones better not go above 4pt. There is no way 10 Brims are more powerful than 10 Guardsmen. 4 pts I can understand to an extent, but 5+ would be way too high.

Plus we really need buffs to Blues and Pinks rather than making Horrors as a whole worse.

Oh, don't worry, if brimstone get hit with the nerfbat, I assume conscripts will get hit by the nerftruck


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Reece is a human and is capable of both bias and being wrong. These lists have very minimum additions of less than 40 Horrors, they are not the abuse in the armies.

I'm just saying. Brimstones getting nerfed when the main tester keeps saying they are still way too good AND when the top 8 are all 2 factions, 1 of which has them in every list is a foregone conclusion

I'm not even talking about conscipts, I'm talking about full-blown proper Guardsmen.

Brims have no shooting attack, are worse in Melee and lack the superior Ld buffing options of the Guard to instead be tankier out of cover and against rending weapons and a unreliable, 1MW psychic attack that kills one of them.

4pts for a Brim? Ok yeah I can see that being somewhat fair, but any more than that would be too far, and would definitely result in Blue Horrors becoming even worse and splitting might as being an option that is even more dead than now.

And no offense to Reece, but the man complains incessantly about certain units but holds no qualms with himself using things like Lias Issodon gaining 3 free drop pods, etc.

He's just a guy. He doesn't even work FOR GW. He has a bias, he clearly doesn't like Daemons right now. I would imagine most of all of us agree we're not in LOVE with Daemons either, but we need our other units IMPROVED instead of just nerfing one of them into the ground over and over again.

There's only 70 Fething Brimstones between those top tables, you couldn't even sing me a song about how they're supposedly carrying any of those people.

Oh I'm definitely not in love with Daemons at the moments, but (like the rest of us here I'm sure) it's in a different way to Reece.

Tbh despite liking the base rules of 8th a lot the transition for Daemons has left me wanting because it feels like a heavily stripped down army to the one I started 6+ish years ago, and not in a good way. (As has the mishandling of Word Bearers yet again but that's an entirely different topic).


And yeah, don't see how 70 troop models among the 2 top lists indicated there's a problem - that's the bare minimum number of troops. The Malefic Lords from the first list are 110% more of an issue (ie the actual issue).

Brimstones are a problem

But for a different reason, cheap Troops with a equal deff than expensive units are the main problem of 8th.

Conscripts have the same deff than normal Soldiers or Veterans, so why take something else if you just need something to suck up damage and protect your Chars.

Changing the point costs of those units changes nothing
Making Blue 6 and Brimstone 5 would not save the problem

Changing the save and keep the points would be a thing

I'm in the camp that brimmies are not a problem and fine just with they way they are post-FAQ.

Played 5 games in a GT last weekend, and other than camping objectives and providing screens for my characters... they really didn't do anything. I'd say they're costed appropriately now.

Now the Maelific Lord spams? Which I *do* have... does need to be adjusted a bit.

I'm really tired of seeing Celestine in almost every Imperium list.

Brimstones are fine, lords are not, mind you I run 8 lords cause I like to win. It's impossible to deny they are far too cheap.

Ecdain wrote:
Brimstones are fine, lords are not, mind you I run 8 lords cause I like to win. It's impossible to deny they are far too cheap.

I used to run 11. I now run 5. Either too cheap, or have too good of a save. If they had 3 wounds and could kill themselves off of a peril, that would also be good for balancing them.

I think bumping up the cost is the best solution, the idea of the model is fine it just needs to cost appropriately.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I think bumping up the cost is the best solution, the idea of the model is fine it just needs to cost appropriately.

I could see them being 45-50 pts and still being effective for their purpose

From a CSM perspective and a daemons perspective, Lords might be a bit much. However, if your chief drive is being a renegades and heretics player, them and mauraders are really all you have going for you to not just be a deeply inferior version of AM. If they are nerfed, particularly in a significant way, one of the only decent things about that army goes away. If you raise the cost to 50 points, you're not very far off (16) a herald of slaanesh at that point: a unit which can actually fight, has a potentially usable psychic power that isn't smite and an important area buff, all of which are easily worth 16 points. But no one is exactly scrambling to tack on heralds of slaanesh to their army in droves. A substantial points increase would invalidate one of the only valuable elements of R&H.

I dont understand why Brimstones are a problem, as they are now.
They cannot shoot, theyre not good in CC either. They are supposed to shield and to die.
And they die, to moral, insanely fast.

I feel more like that people are getting annoyed of them cause they shield all the precious units.
But thats not a Brimstone problem, this is a basic rules thing.
Maybe some might also think 4++ is too good, but cmon....

And smite? Pfffff, people should stop using this as an argument.

They're really not a problem, just for some reason people that don't know better LOVE to gripe about them. Conscripts are still significantly better, for only one point more. Malefic Lords should cost more than they currently do, they're kind of in the same boat as Guilliman and Celestine in their ubiquity.

At worst, the only additional tweak I could see being made to Brimstones would be knocking them down to Toughness 2.

drakerocket wrote:

From a CSM perspective and a daemons perspective, Lords might be a bit much. However, if your chief drive is being a renegades and heretics player, them and mauraders are really all you have going for you to not just be a deeply inferior version of AM. If they are nerfed, particularly in a significant way, one of the only decent things about that army goes away. If you raise the cost to 50 points, you're not very far off (16) a herald of slaanesh at that point: a unit which can actually fight, has a potentially usable psychic power that isn't smite and an important area buff, all of which are easily worth 16 points. But no one is exactly scrambling to tack on heralds of slaanesh to their army in droves. A substantial points increase would invalidate one of the only valuable elements of R&H.

I like how you show another persepctive.
Very constructive and indeed very true!

Sokhar wrote:
They're really not a problem, just for some reason people that don't know better LOVE to gripe about them. Conscripts are still significantly better, for only one point more. Malefic Lords should cost more than they currently do, they're kind of in the same boat as Guilliman and Celestine in their ubiquity.

At worst, the only additional tweak I could see being made to Brimstones would be knocking them down to Toughness 2.

T2 would be a pain as the rules aren't written with multi-toughness units in mind.


Since the point changes I've actually started running blue horrors. Most opponents I've played stop shooting at them once they see that they can split as they don't feel like they are making any progress and have more pressing things to shoot. I typically bring 2 units as cheap objective holders. I've also found 30 Plague Bearers is a good screen for most of my characters (not as good as a wall of brims though, but less distaste from my opponents)

I've been wondering, how have people found Be'lakor? He looks good for destroying light tanks / characters, plus being unaligned means he can summon basically any unit to the table (I'm thinking 30 bloodletters 9" away can be quite nasty)

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Well Reece is of a different opinion and 9 times out of 10 what he says - goes, sooner or later. So RIP Brimstones.

Reece doesn't know what he is talking about. He also said Ork Stompas, Kanz and the Ork Index in its entirety would be competitive. Turns out we have 1 build and the units he thought would be OP amazing are utter trash.

JakeSiren wrote:
T2 would be a pain as the rules aren't written with multi-toughness units in mind.


Since the point changes I've actually started running blue horrors. Most opponents I've played stop shooting at them once they see that they can split as they don't feel like they are making any progress and have more pressing things to shoot. I typically bring 2 units as cheap objective holders. I've also found 30 Plague Bearers is a good screen for most of my characters (not as good as a wall of brims though, but less distaste from my opponents)

I've been wondering, how have people found Be'lakor? He looks good for destroying light tanks / characters, plus being unaligned means he can summon basically any unit to the table (I'm thinking 30 bloodletters 9" away can be quite nasty)

Good point about the mixed toughness values. That alone might be the reason that Brimstones got T3 in the first place.

Curious about your Blue Horrors. Do you just not have Brimstones to use/don't want to use them? Don't see what upside Blues offer to justify their higher point cost. Spliting isn't much of an advantage unless you're short of FoC slots, as you could just include those Brimstone models in your army anyway. Spliting is actually a disadvantage because it makes the unit more susceptible to morale losses. On top of that, the only real advantage Blues enjoy on a per-point basis over Brims is that they don't die when they cast Smite--the Smite is equal in efficacy, and while Blues do enjoy one higher strength, it frequently makes little difference, and the Brimstones win out through the combination of their lower point cost and extra attack.

I like Be'lakor a lot. I haven't really utilized his unrestricted summoning abilities yet, but it's a great tool to have in your back pocket if you ever need it. He costs more than a standard Daemon Prince, but brings a lot of useful benefits for the cost. An extra psychic power per turn isn't nothing, and him having access to Dark Hereticus (particularly Death Hex) in combination with his awesome sword is a great combo. He even gets the same number of attacks as a double-talon Prince, while bringing a substantially heftier AP and Damage value with his sword. And re-rolling ALL failed saves, actually boosts his survivability above regular Daemon Princes of Chaos in most situations. Plus you get a leadership debuff as well, if it's ever applicable.

Since I love Daemon Princes and tend to make them a central part of my army theme, I never leave home without him!

IMO the only useful Horror unit is 9x brim/1x blue or 19x brim/1x blue, depending on how many points you play in matched play.

I dont have the models that i actually want for my list, so i play with Horrors Brim, Blue, Pink.
Brims are good for shielding and their costs.
Blues are not bad and also not good. Theyre kind of a lost thing.
Pink are absolute garbage. I played around 40 matches, since i started 40K with my Daemons back in mid June and i HAD to use them every time, because
i didnt have the models i actually wanted in my list.
Theyre good for nothing, now with smite nerf even more useless. They are really the most useless type of Horror or even Daemon unit in the game.
I dont use the split mechanic at all.


On the other Hand i also used Belakor in almost every match up.
He is the most sustainable Daemon in my collection (a small collection ).
He is a tool box, thanx to Dark Hereticus. 14" move is fast,re-roll 1s, re-roll failed save(s) and 6 attacks is very good.
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

The Save is a thing though. I know that mathammer wise a double rolled safe for 5 is higher chance, but i feel for me it isnt working.
Belakor dies easy, so play him carefully. Use him at the right time, cause if he charges and wounds, he will definitly kill something.
Hes not a glass cannon with T6, but he might die quicker than you think.

He combos well with Oblits!
I would not use him for summoning, since he could get wounded cause of summoning and perils too.
He is too precious to waste him like that.

I find it funny that some folks like Reese think Brims are a problem but Girlieman is fine.

It certainly wasn't Brimstones that dominated Nova.

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

Talons just says whenever the model attacks, make an extra attack at that profile. So you don't have to allocate one swing to his talons to generate another, and five attacks to his sword--you can just do 6 sword attacks and get 1 free talon attack. With the higher damage and awesome AP, it's an important distinction to note.

Sokhar wrote:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

Talons just says whenever the model attacks, make an extra attack at that profile. So you don't have to allocate one swing to his talons to generate another, and five attacks to his sword--you can just do 6 sword attacks and get 1 free talon attack. With the higher damage and awesome AP, it's an important distinction to note.

Oh, yes. You are right. I got it worng then. Thank you for the advice!
Its really a big difference.

Boski51 wrote:
I find it funny that some folks like Reese think Brims are a problem but Girlieman is fine.

We're already stiring up some drama here. Why not join in?
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/09/03/nova-open-update-2/#comments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:

Sokhar wrote:

 DortmundOutpost wrote:
Make 1 attack with talon to generate another one and 5 with Blade of Shadows, you get total of 7 attacks and 5 with -5(!!!) AP.

Talons just says whenever the model attacks, make an extra attack at that profile. So you don't have to allocate one swing to his talons to generate another, and five attacks to his sword--you can just do 6 sword attacks and get 1 free talon attack. With the higher damage and awesome AP, it's an important distinction to note.

Oh, yes. You are right. I got it worng then. Thank you for the advice!
Its really a big difference.

Just to be sure: you know he can't cast most of his stuff on himself?