Cephalobeard wrote: The Reece salt is real, for sure. The very notion of TO's and such "Defining Fun" to me is the most dangerous thing I've seen yet. Don't tell people whats fun, don't tell them what isn't fun, let them have fun and decide themselves.
To be fair, however, people are decrying Assassin Spam, Reece included.
People have a bias. They're not hiding it well.
I mostly just hate when a panic-fix is really extreme. I was running three Malefic Lords, converted to look like Cenobites because my whole army theme in Slaanesh "Lament Configuration", so to prevent someone from running 13 Malefic Lords, suddenly we can only take 1? That's really a big swing to make and disproportionately hurts one army.
It reminds of me an ITC GT I went to right after Ghost Keels were released, where they panic-fixed their once-per-game holoshield. It didn't even prove a blip competitively, but the same event was over-run with Space Marine combo-abuse that no one batted an eye at.
If the purpose of your nerf is to limit a single unit, why even beat around the bush with limiting all other forgeworld stuff? Don't pretend you're trying to be some fair magnanimous organization, if one unit is the problem just target the one problem. You'll get no fewer complaints and less problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post: DGDP has DR.
Nurglings are 18 pts now.
Beast of nurgle makes opponents who fall back roll a D6. on 4+ they suffer a mortal wound. Also 5 wounds now. Same pts though so I don't think it is enough. At 28 they'd be much more reasonable
Plague Drones. 34 pts a model(down from 44). 4 wounds now. WOW that's really good.
Plaguebearers are the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Motarion has really good things going for him.
He seems to destroy hordes, killing about 30 horde units a turn not counting morale.
Also he can kill big stuff even easier than magnus.
AND he pulses mortal wounds every turn.
AND he removes toughness.
Bastard has 5 weapons to choose from:
Pistol with "beam"(can hit mutiple units) 1, S8, -3, 3
Grenade 2D6, S5, -1, 1
Nurglings like always D6, S2, 0, 1,
Silence has 2 modes:
anti big stuff: S user x2, -4, D6 anti horde 3x for every attack, S user, -2, 1
Re-roll 1s to hit for deathguard(like magnus but no fail save re-roll)
Psychic: knows 3 contagion, deny 3, casts 2. Can't take warp time :(
Mathammer wise he is a bit worse than Magnus on paper due to not casting warptime. His damage is better though and he can take on hordes as well as big dudes so he is waaaay more versatile.. Also the -1T aura and the pulsating 3 mortal wounds are hard to judge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Made a Nurgle Daemon only fluff list:
Plague Drones are going to make a REALLY nice screening unit. Kinda analogous to what you'd want Flesh Hounds to do--move forward quickly, tie stuff up in combat, be competent enough to not get trashed by non-CC units. Far more durable for their cost, solid speed. Not super great at close combat owing to their hitting on a 4+ and not having AP modifiers for their attacks, but they should wound reliably and the mount attacks are damage 2. Seems like they'd be great to advance up the field and hide Daemon Princes behind them, where the DP's can help buff the Drones.
I just used Uraka the Warfiend. I summoned him by my CSM Champion and he is just a monster born for chopping terminators or bosses. I don't know how to build a full Daemons army around him but as a support caracter, is just wow.
hellpato wrote: I just used Uraka the Warfiend. I summoned him by my CSM Champion and he is just a monster born for chopping terminators or bosses. I don't know how to build a full Daemons army around him but as a support caracter, is just wow.
Good to know. He's a model I love but never manage to use.
Automatically Appended Next Post: .. So you can really stack up Possessed these days.. silly but...
Fabius +
Putrescent Vitality +
Nurgle herald +
Epidemus.
This book is going to make a few changes in my army.
I'm going to bring more plague drones. They are simply to good not to bring for 34 points a pop. That's 8.5 points per wound. I own 21 of the things, and for only 714 points, it's tempting to bring them. I will be bringing at least 14 of them now.
18 points for nurglings is really sweet. In the DG codex, they also have plague weapons, which makes me wonder if they can be buffed as other plague weapons are. Nurglings rerolling to wounds gets much better.
Heralds still suck. They are only good for nurglings, as before. It's a shame, as I'm sitting on 7 of them, and I just can't use them.
The DG princes look good. I like that they get DR. I'll probably be swapping my princes for DG ones. The idea of a warlord with a 2+ and 4+ DR is really appealing.
I'll probably try something like this out to see how it does.
* 4 DPs with dual claws + wings (assuming DG get a erratta for wing costs)
* 2 squads of 30 plaguebearers w/instruments
* 3 squads of 7 plague drones w/instruments
* 4 Malific Lords (to sit in plaguebearer squads to keep things away from them)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sokhar wrote: Plague Drones are going to make a REALLY nice screening unit. Kinda analogous to what you'd want Flesh Hounds to do--move forward quickly, tie stuff up in combat, be competent enough to not get trashed by non-CC units. Far more durable for their cost, solid speed. Not super great at close combat owing to their hitting on a 4+ and not having AP modifiers for their attacks, but they should wound reliably and the mount attacks are damage 2. Seems like they'd be great to advance up the field and hide Daemon Princes behind them, where the DP's can help buff the Drones.
I've been using plague drones since 8th dropped. They work great if you have a DP with them.
The lack of AP on their attacks seems like a bad thing, but you need to realize that they have 5 attacks per model. If you have a DP near them, they are hitting on a 4+ rerolling 1s, which gives them a 58% of hitting, which is not bad.
They really shine when attacking vehicles, like rhinos or storm ravens. This is because you can cast Virulent Blessing from the DP onto the plague drones. This greatly amplifies the damage done to vehicles, as shown by the mathhammer example below.
You have 7 plague drones that assault a storm raven, which a DP also getting into the action.
* The bearers have 8 attacks. They hit with 4.64 of them.
* The drones have 24 attacks and hit with 16.24 of them.
* The plague bearers are wounding on 5s, rerolling failed wound. The reroll will wound on 4s. That's 1.54 wounds on the first round, with 1.55 more on the reroll. Any 6s rolled do double wounds, or 2 wounds each. Since you rolled ~6.18 dice, it's likely you will get at least 1 six.
* The drones are the same ratio, just with 3* the number of attacks. That's 9.27 more wounds, this time doing 2 damage each. Any of those that rolled a six (which you can expect about 3 of them), will do 4 damage each!
Sure, the storm raven is saving 2/3 of them. You can expect 1-2 wounds done with the plague bearers, and ~8 more wounds done from the drones. Add the daemon prince's claws to the mix, and you will either have a wrecked raven or severely damaged one.
There are other tricks you can do with plague drones as well. Since they fly, if you rolled high enough you can fly over the models in assault to surround a unit. I've used this on more than one occasion to block enemy movement. You can leave combat and shoot your death's heads. (not much damage, but i've done this before) The large bases one drones also gives you a lot of board control.
At 44 points, I thought they were just a bit overpriced and underwhelming, but I still brought 7 of them in my list. At 34 points with 4 wounds, they are MUCH better at their job.
Simple strategy, charge turn 1 with drakes and mortarion(if possible), maybe spam the 3CP DG mortal wound explosion and rack up the tally for Epidemius ASAP.
DortmundOutpost wrote: Did Malefic Lords get nerfed now?
All this rumor-mumor confuses me to hard.
I play like it was, until FAQ is out or something.
No... but every one of us expects it to happen soon. Also, a few of us are going to a GT where the rumor is that one of the event organizers is adamant about making a stealth Malefic Lord semi-ban (one FW model of a given type per list maximum), even though even the ITC hasn't made such a call (and it does nothing about Imperium's Astropaths, etc...)
Lords are bad, certainly, but not "nerf all other FW" bad.
The problem is that about 5%-10% of FW stuff is just bonkers and could not balance it's way out of a wet paper bag.
It's that small percentage that gives FW such a bad name.
If people took the non-broken FW stuff more often, then FW would be more accepted.
Lords are bad, certainly, but not "nerf all other FW" bad.
That's what I argued to the TO, but he says half his people are telling him to outright ban FW (a kind of "competitive gamer i'll never understand is the... spend $1000s on their army, then cry if someone bought one FW model). He thinks its a credible compromise... but I don't know... the ITC isn't the be all end all, but they get things right far more than not, and if they aren't talking a similar ban, I don't know why this event would.
I am really curious to know how Nurgle daemon lists fare well in this heavy shooting environment. Can a nurgle daemon list player explain to me how you don't get shot off the board? Its not about getting off a turn 1 charge right?
Say you are facing a imperium list with heavy shooting, bubble wrapped with cheap conscripts or infantry. How does a nurgle daemon list approach such a gunline?
Looking at how improved Plague Drones have become (now at a whopping 8.5 pts/wound on a T5 5++/DR model), how much of an argument is there left to be made for Giant Chaos Spawn if you're not going Tzeentch? Spawn bring a slightly better ratio of wounds and have a 4+ armor save, the same T5, Invul, and Disgustingly Resilient as the Drones, and actually have an AP modifier on their attacks (albeit only -1). But Plague Drones have reliable stats, are faster at a stock 10" move (and the ability to carry an Instrument), have re-rolls on their wound rolls, AND a shooting attack.
We all fell in love with Giant Chaos Spawn because they're a giant bucket of stats, but Drones aren't far off anymore, and have a number of advantages Spawn do not. Certainly obtaining models for them is vastly easier as well. Is it still worth having to roll all those dice for their random stats, hoping the Spawn regenerates and grows wounds?
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am really curious to know how Nurgle daemon lists fare well in this heavy shooting environment. Can a nurgle daemon list player explain to me how you don't get shot off the board? Its not about getting off a turn 1 charge right?
Say you are facing a imperium list with heavy shooting, bubble wrapped with cheap conscripts or infantry. How does a nurgle daemon list approach such a gunline?
You weather the storm and play for the objectives.
Plague bearers are very durable for 7ppm. Try a squad of 30 of them out and see how they do.
I've been eyeballing the Start Collecting: Daemons of Slaanesh box for a little while now, but I'm wondering if it's worth it as it seems like most Slaanesh stuff is just way too squishy. Daemonettes seem good at 7 points a model but you probably need a ton of them, and ditto with Seekers. At least Seekers are as fast as Bikes so they have a better chance of connecting in melee, but T3 really hurts. I'm not sure about the chariot variants; they are cool looking but reading the stats from the index again they seem extremely fragile even if they are cheap. Maybe a regular Herald on Seeker Chariot could be okay as it can still hide since it has less than 10 wounds, but I'm not sure there's much point in taking a Chariot rather than a Steed for a Herald.
Daemonettes are now completelly not viable. If you place them on the table - they are too slow and get shot off the board.
If you summon them, you will always do better summoning Bloodletters instead which is the main problem. Bloodletters cost the same as Daemonettes and are pretty much strictly better
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am really curious to know how Nurgle daemon lists fare well in this heavy shooting environment. Can a nurgle daemon list player explain to me how you don't get shot off the board? Its not about getting off a turn 1 charge right?
Say you are facing a imperium list with heavy shooting, bubble wrapped with cheap conscripts or infantry. How does a nurgle daemon list approach such a gunline?
Tonight will be my second Nurgle list, and my first 100% nurgle list. Previous one had some R&H artillery, which was nice, but didn't change the game too much.
I'm trying epidemius, 30pb, 3x3 nurglings and a grip of nurgle daemon engines, as well as scabbie. It was suggested by another player who has had a blast with it. I considered bringing a herald to summon scabbie with, but I think I would rather have him draw fire away from the defiler, plague hulk, decimator and other scary stuff.
As soon as the point adjustment for Drones is out, I'll be running the 12 of them I have. I am a little bummed they dont get the -1 to hit when in large groups like PB and pox riders get. On the subject, pox riders have treated me well, but with the changes to drones, I'll have to revisit and see if the riders are even worth it.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Quick question as I haven't run them yet, but how are Flamers in minimum size units?
Super squishy, but you can hide them easily as they can fly, and your opponent usually will have to dedicate a unit to wipe them off, meaning a disproportionate amount of fire going their way.
I find that Exalted Flamers are better because they can hide behind horrors.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Quick question as I haven't run them yet, but how are Flamers in minimum size units?
Super squishy, but you can hide them easily as they can fly, and your opponent usually will have to dedicate a unit to wipe them off, meaning a disproportionate amount of fire going their way.
I find that Exalted Flamers are better because they can hide behind horrors.
I find that flamers in 3x or 6x units are not good.
Sure they have D6 autohit, but on the other hand they just sit there and die, if you cant manage to hide them until they
get their chance to do dmg.
I would also suggest to play Exalted Flamers.
I find 4x Exalted Flamers is a good number, each set up as one unit.
Cephalobeard wrote: Exalted flamers outclass normal flamers in every way. Zero contest.
I think this depends on how many characters you bring and how close they'll be...
If you want to spam out characters in order to protect certain ones, ie the changeling, they yeah EFlamers are way better.
However, I used a 6x flamers to escort 1 or 2 characters to great effect as massed flamers is a decent deterrent in this edition.
You could just as easily escort characters with horrors, and then simply kill the threats with other things. Flamers are an easy first blood for your opponent.
I'm definitely not telling you not to do it, I'm just saying it isn't an optimal choice.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am really curious to know how Nurgle daemon lists fare well in this heavy shooting environment. Can a nurgle daemon list player explain to me how you don't get shot off the board? Its not about getting off a turn 1 charge right?
Say you are facing a imperium list with heavy shooting, bubble wrapped with cheap conscripts or infantry. How does a nurgle daemon list approach such a gunline?
Tonight will be my second Nurgle list, and my first 100% nurgle list. Previous one had some R&H artillery, which was nice, but didn't change the game too much.
I'm trying epidemius, 30pb, 3x3 nurglings and a grip of nurgle daemon engines, as well as scabbie. It was suggested by another player who has had a blast with it. I considered bringing a herald to summon scabbie with, but I think I would rather have him draw fire away from the defiler, plague hulk, decimator and other scary stuff.
As soon as the point adjustment for Drones is out, I'll be running the 12 of them I have. I am a little bummed they dont get the -1 to hit when in large groups like PB and pox riders get. On the subject, pox riders have treated me well, but with the changes to drones, I'll have to revisit and see if the riders are even worth it.
The beauty of scabby is that he draws a lot of fire, but he's a red herring.
He's so incredibly hard to kill, that when people are shooing at him, it's usually a waste of time. I've only ever had him die once.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Quick question as I haven't run them yet, but how are Flamers in minimum size units?
I suddenly have to change a list for an upcoming tournament, and have an awkward 90pts to play with (formerly three Malefic Lords)
Flamers do a decent amount of damage. I've used squads of 9 of them before.
Their durability really leaves something to be desired, though. T4, 4++, 2 wounds just vaporizes quickly.
Sorry to broke the flow of the topic but I got a question here... The deamon bound engine (decimatoer, slaughterer, blight drone etc...) can I summoned them like any other daemons... i was rereading the rules and i nothing said no.
Anyone got any tips how to make the best use of the changeling in a csm/cd tzeench list?
For tzeench demon units for him to buff im considering having
9 possessed
3 obliterators
Lord and sorceror on disk
3 flamers
2 exalted flamers
Is that enough tzeench daemon units to make the changeling worth it?
Obliterators deep strike, characters don't matter as they can't be targeted. And possessed go in front asap (don't know much about them)?
Changeling is more for Brimstone horror spam and for slower non-character units
rvd1ofakind wrote: Obliterators deep strike, characters don't matter as they can't be targeted. And possessed go in front asap (don't know much about them)?
Changeling is more for Brimstone horror spam and for slower non-character units
Fair point its a shame that hes kind of slow back to the drawing board.
Talking about summoning, how have people found the mechanic? I tried it for the first time today where I summoned 30 Bloodletters. Unfortunately they rolled snake eyes for their charge (just needed an 8" with the banner), not even the reroll stratagem could help me. Needless to say I was a little salty when the entire squad got obliterated in my opponents next shooting phase (although I did apologize to my opponent afterwards)
So I'm confused as to what point values to use for Daemons... the lesser Daemons got updated costs in line with the CSM codex right? But nothing else has yet has it? So swords/axes are much cheaper for CSMDPs, and death guard pay a lot less for drones and nurglings... what's up with that? This needs to be consolidated into an errata really, at least until a daemon codex comes out.
You always have to use the most recent Datasheet.
Changes from the index:
Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers - 7 pts per model
Pink horrors - 8 pts per model
Brimstone horrors - 3 pts per model
Horrors - smite does 1 damage instead of D3, unless there are 10 or more Pink horrors in the unit
Daemonic Icon - 15 pts
Beast of Nurgle - now has 5 wounds and a new ability: when an enemy unit Falls Back from a Beast of Nurgle, roll a die. On 4+, the unit suffers a mortal wound
Plague Drone - 34 pts per model and now have 4 wounds each
Nurglins - 18 pts per model
rvd1ofakind wrote: You always have to use the most recent Datasheet.
Changes from the index:
Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers - 7 pts per model
Pink horrors - 8 pts per model
Brimstone horrors - 3 pts per model
Horrors - smite does 1 damage instead of D3, unless there are 10 or more Pink horrors in the unit
Daemonic Icon - 15 pts
Beast of Nurgle - now has 5 wounds and a new ability: when an enemy unit Falls Back from a Beast of Nurgle, roll a die. On 4+, the unit suffers a mortal wound
Plague Drone - 34 pts per model and now have 4 wounds each
Nurglins - 18 pts per model
Can you point me to where it says I have to use the most recent data sheet?
Of course I have no problem paying less, but I'm not buying the codices for two armies I don't play...
rvd1ofakind wrote: Obliterators deep strike, characters don't matter as they can't be targeted. And possessed go in front asap (don't know much about them)?
Changeling is more for Brimstone horror spam and for slower non-character units
Fair point its a shame that hes kind of slow back to the drawing board.
What I've - succesfully - tried so far:
On your first turn advance with both The Changelling and the Possesed. They don't shoot so that's is basically the only way to go. Let's assume they end moving 8-9" on average.
Deep strike the Obliterators 9" in front of The Changelling, so they get buffed by his -1 to hit aura. If they are Alpha Legion that makes a -2.
At that point your Obliterators should be 17-18" away your deployment line. That's a good spot to shoot with their 24" range.
On the following turn your Possesed and The Changeling will advance again. Oblits will still stay at range of the Changelling aura.
At that point a Waptime for the Possesed if they haven't charged yet is highly recommended - this normally happens when facing TAU, IG or similar. The Changelling could stay near the Obliterators and summon some horrors or other lesser Daemons if necessary. Don't forget you can cast Smite with him, although I like to cast Boon of Change on the possesed if they are likely to engage.
Hi all, I'm considering the benefits of adding a Daemon detachment to my CSM legion that I'm planning out, and was wondering what the current thinking is regarding the different Gods?
I kinda like the idea of Slaneesh, and the models mostly being fast enough to not need to rely on summoning is very nice. I like seekers and chariots, and have some ideas for conversion for them to fit them into my army "theme" a little better.
I have also always like Papa Nurgle, fluffwise, though I was concerned by the nurgle units all being very slow. However I have now noticed plague drones, and they seem to be a fairly decent unit (especially with the recent buffs). Might allow me to go for a Death Guard detachment, just for nurglings + plague drones + bloat-drones and/or blight haulers, though not yet sure if it's worth it.
Tzeentch I'm not sure on. The idea of flamer units and the blue scribes + other psykers is nice, but I'm not a fan of the models and a lot of them seem to need summoning to get into the fight.
Same with Khorne regarding them needing summoning, though khorne is always a popular choice. Blud.
So yeh, any advice would be lovely. Not going to be my next purchase or conversion project, as I already have a couple on the go, but I'd like to be able to plan ahead a bit!
Planning ahead is probably something we all do despite already having multiple projects going on xD
Tzeentch is the most reliable way to go - Brimstones and Exalted Flamers, mostly, plus The Changeling and a Herald for the buff auras. Flamers are also quite popular, and I haven't seen anyone fielding Blue Scribes.
If you like Slaanesh and are not planing to go super-competitive give it a try. I personally would not field Daemonettes unless I can get my hands on the Juan Diaz ones but Heralds of Slaanesh are one of the best cost-effective Smites in the game (no, Malefic Lords don't count!).
ochobits wrote: Planning ahead is probably something we all do despite already having multiple projects going on xD
Tzeentch is the most reliable way to go - Brimstones and Exalted Flamers, mostly, plus The Changeling and a Herald for the buff auras. Flamers are also quite popular, and I haven't seen anyone fielding Blue Scribes.
If you like Slaanesh and are not planing to go super-competitive give it a try. I personally would not field Daemonettes unless I can get my hands on the Juan Diaz ones but Heralds of Slaanesh are one of the best cost-effective Smites in the game (no, Malefic Lords don't count!).
I was unsure about brimstones, just because it seems like I would have to spend a load of points in reserves to get the most out of a unit... I only briefly worked it out, and may have gotten it wrong, but I'm sure it ended up like 300+ points for a single unit of horrors after taking into account all the reserves stuff...
Exalted flamers on paper I liked, but I dislike the models, so would need to find an alternative to run as a counts-as or conversion. Maybe a chariot model from Sigmar with a big dual-flamer turret?
For Slaanesh, I liked the standard seeker chariot (the exalted one had degrading stats which didn't seem worth the extra points), as well as the normal seeker unit. Don't know how competitive they are though, but they seemed fast and pretty killy.
For Nurgle, nurglings and the drones. Even though nurglings are slow, their ability to infiltrate seemed useful and made up for it.
I could do a mixed daemon force, I would only lose out on daemon specific psychic powers. The herald buffs seemed fairly minor.
He's not talking about using the Split rule and having the models to split Pink Horrors all the way down to Brimstones. No one would advocate for that, in fact, because Pink Horrors and the Split rule in general is terrible. He's advocating just taking several units comprised entirely of Brimstone Horrors. Brimstones are the most durable unit in the game for their point cost, providing a T3 body with a 4++ invul save for only 3 measly points! Their durability is then further enhanced by having The Changeling around so the enemy is -1 to hit when shooting at them. It makes for an extremely efficient block of models that can hold objectives (particularly with Objective Secured in a Daemons detachment) and shield other models behind them, particularly characters.
They won't accomplish much BEYOND being a durable pain in the ass and holding ground/shielding more important models, but you can hardly complain much for fewer than 300 points (for Changeling and 6 units of 10 Brimstones).
Sokhar wrote: He's not talking about using the Split rule and having the models to split Pink Horrors all the way down to Brimstones. No one would advocate for that, in fact, because Pink Horrors and the Split rule in general is terrible. He's advocating just taking several units comprised entirely of Brimstone Horrors. Brimstones are the most durable unit in the game for their point cost, providing a T3 body with a 4++ invul save for only 3 measly points! Their durability is then further enhanced by having The Changeling around so the enemy is -1 to hit when shooting at them. It makes for an extremely efficient block of models that can hold objectives (particularly with Objective Secured in a Daemons detachment) and shield other models behind them, particularly characters.
They won't accomplish much BEYOND being a durable pain in the ass and holding ground/shielding more important models, but you can hardly complain much for fewer than 300 points (for Changeling and 6 units of 10 Brimstones).
Ahh I see! I have a unit of cultists that I would be running anyway (possibly with tide of traitors if the opportunity presents), but I have no issue with including a couple small 10-man horror squads if they're actually decent to use as screening units.
Most of my army is made up of either deepstrikers (oblits, talons) or heavy walkers (maulerfiend, contemptor, giant spawn), which is also why I was looking at faster units, as most of my stuff is either instantly where it wants to be, or is moving 10+ inches per turn. Horrors at a 6" walk would only useful at camping the back field or shielding from deepstrikes behind my lines (which by itself may well be worth their points to be honest).
May be enough for me to paint up a squad of 10 at least!
Hello, first post here. I read all 42 pages and appreciate the information! I am a brand new player who started buying and building a few weeks ago. I've watched a couple games and have a (very) basic grasp of the rules, and have now made my first 1,000 point army list. I own nurgle/tzeentch at the moment.
Any critique given the tools available or suggested additions to a new chaos daemon army I would be glad to hear about. I'm still trying to figure out what extra books I need to get other than index: chaos and the rulebook which I already have.
I have 75 points left over for brimstone horror splitting. Note that I only own 5 more brimstones than I have active in the army (and a lot of pinks that I am being told are sadly trash) so I will be recycling some on death, this is part of the reason for the 5/5 unit makeup.
Models I have available that are not included: More (25 or so pink and 10 blue) horrors, herald of tzeentch on chariot, 9 flamers, 3x nurglings, 3x plague drones, 10-20 more plaguebearers. -- I also have some models in the mail that should be here within a couple weeks, 2x exalted flamers on chariot, more plaguebearers, 10 man 1k suns warpflamer squad, a couple more heralds of tzeentch and 2 daemon princes.
I'll be trying it out this week/weekend hopefully, still need to learn about mission types and special command point rules etc.
You really have no damage dealers atm apart from the DPs. Blue horrors are much worse than pinks IMO, when taking more than 1 blue. Pinks at least put out some dakka.
When you take this much screen you have to have something you want to protect. Which you don't... really. Might want to cut back on Plaguebearers and blues and get some actual damage in.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You really have no damage dealers atm apart from the DPs. Blue horrors are much worse than pinks IMO, when taking more than 1 blue. Pinks at least put out some dakka.
When you take this much screen you have to have something you want to protect. Which you don't... really. Might want to cut back on Plaguebearers and blues and get some actual damage in.
Thank you for the advice, I considered this last night and made a couple other lists.
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [11 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Nurgle: Virulent Blessing
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [11 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Boon of Change
Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot [7 PL, 135pts]: Bolt of Change, Boon of Change, Staff of Change
+ Troops +
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Trancefate wrote: Hello, first post here. I read all 42 pages and appreciate the information! I am a brand new player who started buying and building a few weeks ago. I've watched a couple games and have a (very) basic grasp of the rules, and have now made my first 1,000 point army list. I own nurgle/tzeentch at the moment.
Any critique given the tools available or suggested additions to a new chaos daemon army I would be glad to hear about. I'm still trying to figure out what extra books I need to get other than index: chaos and the rulebook which I already have.
I have 75 points left over for brimstone horror splitting. Note that I only own 5 more brimstones than I have active in the army (and a lot of pinks that I am being told are sadly trash) so I will be recycling some on death, this is part of the reason for the 5/5 unit makeup.
Models I have available that are not included: More (25 or so pink and 10 blue) horrors, herald of tzeentch on chariot, 9 flamers, 3x nurglings, 3x plague drones, 10-20 more plaguebearers. -- I also have some models in the mail that should be here within a couple weeks, 2x exalted flamers on chariot, more plaguebearers, 10 man 1k suns warpflamer squad, a couple more heralds of tzeentch and 2 daemon princes.
I'll be trying it out this week/weekend hopefully, still need to learn about mission types and special command point rules etc.
So:
- I would read about Maleific Lords and add them to army in Supreme Command Detachment
- I would cut the Herald out of detachment and summon several heralds with malefic lords and smite
- I would add a Changeling with boon of change
- I would field 1xblue/9 brim horror squads (and protect them with changeling to shield malefic lords and other characters), as blues are useless kind of, but pinks are more
- I would not give tzeentch DP boon of change, but bolt of change or treason - 90% of the time you will use smite anyway. You can cast boon of change with the changeling on the DP - I would maybe add nurglings to protect DZ or forward place them
- I would summon plaguebearers
- I would summon Bloodletters
- I would add exalted flamers
- I dont like Rubric Marines, the feel wiered
- I would buy Belakor and add him to my Army
- Look at Obliterators
This all depends on playstyle.
I feel this mass of Horrors and 30 Plaguebearers is a little overkill.
You should maybe play a lot of games in the beginning, you will get a feeling what works and what really is not good.
What are people's thoughts of tzeentch flamers and exalted flamers? I initially shyed away from fielding them, because I didn't like the models, but I've now found a possible counts-as that might work so thought I'd ask what they're like on the table!
Niiru wrote: What are people's thoughts of tzeentch flamers and exalted flamers? I initially shyed away from fielding them, because I didn't like the models, but I've now found a possible counts-as that might work so thought I'd ask what they're like on the table!
you mean flamers compared to exalted flamers?
Or both units by itself?
Here again, the oppinions are divided.
I think Flamers are not worth to play, against some armies they might.
I prefer exalted flamers.
Though i never tried to play mass flamers.
Well, both really. I have found a model that would work for in place of normal flamers, but the exalted flamer is a pretty wierd size (cavalry base, I think) and so it's hard to find a suitable replacement for it.
If anyone happens to know of any cavalry-base sized models that might work, do let me know! It can even be a horse (or horselike) riding model, as the exalted flamer is a pretty fast unit, but I'm yet to find one that is using a weapon that could become "flamey".
Might try and find mounted mages perhaps, but they seem to be rare too. Most magic casters seem to prefer being on foot ha
Trancefate wrote: Hello, first post here. I read all 42 pages and appreciate the information! I am a brand new player who started buying and building a few weeks ago. I've watched a couple games and have a (very) basic grasp of the rules, and have now made my first 1,000 point army list. I own nurgle/tzeentch at the moment.
Any critique given the tools available or suggested additions to a new chaos daemon army I would be glad to hear about. I'm still trying to figure out what extra books I need to get other than index: chaos and the rulebook which I already have.
I have 75 points left over for brimstone horror splitting. Note that I only own 5 more brimstones than I have active in the army (and a lot of pinks that I am being told are sadly trash) so I will be recycling some on death, this is part of the reason for the 5/5 unit makeup.
Models I have available that are not included: More (25 or so pink and 10 blue) horrors, herald of tzeentch on chariot, 9 flamers, 3x nurglings, 3x plague drones, 10-20 more plaguebearers. -- I also have some models in the mail that should be here within a couple weeks, 2x exalted flamers on chariot, more plaguebearers, 10 man 1k suns warpflamer squad, a couple more heralds of tzeentch and 2 daemon princes.
I'll be trying it out this week/weekend hopefully, still need to learn about mission types and special command point rules etc.
So:
- I would read about Maleific Lords and add them to army in Supreme Command Detachment
- I would cut the Herald out of detachment and summon several heralds with malefic lords and smite
- I would add a Changeling with boon of change
- I would field 1xblue/9 brim horror squads (and protect them with changeling to shield malefic lords and other characters), as blues are useless kind of, but pinks are more
- I would not give tzeentch DP boon of change, but bolt of change or treason - 90% of the time you will use smite anyway. You can cast boon of change with the changeling on the DP - I would maybe add nurglings to protect DZ or forward place them
- I would summon plaguebearers
- I would summon Bloodletters
- I would add exalted flamers
- I dont like Rubric Marines, the feel wiered
- I would buy Belakor and add him to my Army
- Look at Obliterators
This all depends on playstyle.
I feel this mass of Horrors and 30 Plaguebearers is a little overkill.
You should maybe play a lot of games in the beginning, you will get a feeling what works and what really is not good.
Thanks a ton! I've done some revisions and received some units in the mail today, this is how I'm angling for a 1k Tzeentch list now:
its 1036 so if my opponent prefers im under 1k I can drop the flamers, add 1 brimstone to each squad, warp bolters to the DP's, and have enough to split the blues with 3 points left over.
Also, where do you BUY malefic lords? I had trouble locating models for them on GW site/ forgeworld or Ebay. I'm honestly not even sure where the rules for them are, or how they exist outside of chaos without a model.
Also, where do you BUY malefic lords? I had trouble locating models for them on GW site/ forgeworld or Ebay. I'm honestly not even sure where the rules for them are, or how they exist outside of chaos without a model.
Don't believe there's an official model for it. Some people use FW's rogue psykers, personally I use Summoner of Tzeentch, Tzeentch Sorcerer and chaos sorcerer lord for the three I field.
Also, where do you BUY malefic lords? I had trouble locating models for them on GW site/ forgeworld or Ebay. I'm honestly not even sure where the rules for them are, or how they exist outside of chaos without a model.
Don't believe there's an official model for it. Some people use FW's rogue psykers, personally I use Summoner of Tzeentch, Tzeentch Sorcerer and chaos sorcerer lord for the three I field.
they belong to chaos as part of the renegade & heretics FW army.
there is no model.
many people use conversions or proxies.
the rules for them are in the fw index astra militarum.
send me PN!
and you should really get a changeling and Belakor...
and obliterators...
I used these. Good little models, and they actually cost an amount of money so no one can be too terribly upset that I'm using a few of them, instead of cultists or something as some people do.
Trancefate wrote: Nice, i've ordered some from FW.... at 30 points each, is there any reason at all not to cram as many of these as I can reasonably fit in my army?
Also, buying changeling today, then holding off to decide what is next until I play some games.
is the 55 pound Giant Chaos Spawn from forgeworld the only model for this? I'm ready to buy a couple if it's the ONLY place to get them... lol
Main problem with Malefic Lords - incoming nerfhammer
There is, however, zero context on how the nerf will come out for them. Don't invest heavily in them, because there's no way to know how they're about to change.
Makes sense about the nerfhammer honestly, but they aren't a very costly unit so I ordered 6 of them just cause I like the way they look anyhow. Also kind of a cheap way for me to see how forgeworld models differ.
Regarding Mutalith as a replacement for Giant Chaos Spawn... I think at $85 I'll stick with the original model!
Also, where do you BUY malefic lords? I had trouble locating models for them on GW site/ forgeworld or Ebay. I'm honestly not even sure where the rules for them are, or how they exist outside of chaos without a model.
Don't believe there's an official model for it. Some people use FW's rogue psykers, personally I use Summoner of Tzeentch, Tzeentch Sorcerer and chaos sorcerer lord for the three I field.
I use the Warhammer Chaos Knights in a few tournaments w/o issues... I've even got complimented as i painted them up as the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Good to hear you ordered Lords or "rouge psykers"
There is really no knowledge about on how they will(?) get nerfed.
and you really CAN get a Belakor...he is simply amazing!
In my search for an alternative model for an exalted flamer, I have come across a couple options. I did also try and find a mounted mage/sorcerer of some sort, but was unable to find anything. Surpring, actually, even in the Age of Sigmar range, but all the mounted sorcerers were on giant dragons or something, and so were far too big.
The two I've found so far - Do you think they'd be ok on the tabletop, visually and size-wise?
The first seems closer to the right size, though I may add some flame to its "nozzle" haha
Edit: The first is a 50mm base size I think, according to the privateer site. I realise the scale is hard to figure out. NO idea on the base size of the elemental, but that photo shows it next to what I assume is a 28mm base model.
Cephalobeard wrote: Not really. Neither of them says "Exalted Flamer" to keep, at all.
Hmm, shame. To be honest, the official model doesn't say "exalted flamer" to me either. It says... I'm holding out my long arms and holding on to some spikey stuff. Not a good model.
Took a trip to the local GW store today before I made my forgeworld order. Ended up grabbing a couple Vampire Counts Necromancers as my Malefic Lords, ordered the rest on e-bay. I think they look pretty nice for it.
Bought a changeling as well The list I will be playing this weekend is now between these two, only differences are 10pink/5brimstone squads & 2 demon princes vs 9brimstone/1blue squads and 3 demon princes. Wasn't sure if I needed more screen but I made the squads pink if I did not only due to owned model limitations but also because I figured if I needed more points into screen (to make best use of changeling) they should at least be shooty.
Question about the Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot.
The dataslate says that the "model may be accompanied by 3 blue horrors", but doesn't say... anything else, really.
I assume these horrors ride the chariot with the herald, so they also move 14" a turn?
It doesn't seem to increase the power level of the unit, so they seem to be a free upgrade for PL games, but in normal points games would you pay the extra for the 3x blues?
And so, if you're paying points for them, making them actual blues on the chariot, does that mean you get 3 extra attacks? As well as 3 ablative wounds, as the blues would also be killable as part of the "unit". In which case, when they die wouldn't they also have the option to split into brimstones?
I just can't see any reason why any of this isn't the case... which would make the tzeentch herald a bit more expensive, but pretty survivable.
Niiru wrote: Question about the Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot.
The dataslate says that the "model may be accompanied by 3 blue horrors", but doesn't say... anything else, really.
I assume these horrors ride the chariot with the herald, so they also move 14" a turn?
It doesn't seem to increase the power level of the unit, so they seem to be a free upgrade for PL games, but in normal points games would you pay the extra for the 3x blues?
And so, if you're paying points for them, making them actual blues on the chariot, does that mean you get 3 extra attacks? As well as 3 ablative wounds, as the blues would also be killable as part of the "unit". In which case, when they die wouldn't they also have the option to split into brimstones?
I just can't see any reason why any of this isn't the case... which would make the tzeentch herald a bit more expensive, but pretty survivable.
Niiru wrote: Question about the Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot.
The dataslate says that the "model may be accompanied by 3 blue horrors", but doesn't say... anything else, really.
I assume these horrors ride the chariot with the herald, so they also move 14" a turn?
It doesn't seem to increase the power level of the unit, so they seem to be a free upgrade for PL games, but in normal points games would you pay the extra for the 3x blues?
And so, if you're paying points for them, making them actual blues on the chariot, does that mean you get 3 extra attacks? As well as 3 ablative wounds, as the blues would also be killable as part of the "unit". In which case, when they die wouldn't they also have the option to split into brimstones?
I just can't see any reason why any of this isn't the case... which would make the tzeentch herald a bit more expensive, but pretty survivable.
It's a huge unanswered question, I believe.
Oh haha, well. I'd never seen anyone ask it before, which is why I asked as I thought it might be an obvious yes/no. Do people just not play the heralds much, and so it doesn't come up?
Be'Lakor is just not as good as a DP in a Daemon army. That's it. Costs too much, has powers you can't cast neither on him nor the Daemon army. Nothing more to say. I thought he was good too, but then I actually tried making lists and he's nowhere to be seen, while at least 1 DP is in every list
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.
If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.
Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.
If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.
Hmm... I'm not so sure about that...
Captyn_Bob wrote: Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.
Oooooh spicy! --- Oddly enough battlescribe charges 15pts for blues on a herald + chariot but on an exalter flamer + chariot its free
Niiru wrote: In my search for an alternative model for an exalted flamer, I have come across a couple options. I did also try and find a mounted mage/sorcerer of some sort, but was unable to find anything. Surpring, actually, even in the Age of Sigmar range, but all the mounted sorcerers were on giant dragons or something, and so were far too big.
I used the Reaper fire elementals as talosi last ed in my DE coven lists. Mounted them all on dreadnought bases and they worked well. Think I might steal your idea and run them as exalted flamers now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.
If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.
Hmm... I'm not so sure about that...
Captyn_Bob wrote: Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.
Oooooh spicy! --- Oddly enough battlescribe charges 15pts for blues on a herald + chariot but on an exalter flamer + chariot its free
So... what are you not sure about. It is exactly what the FAQ said
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.
If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.
Hmm... I'm not so sure about that...
Captyn_Bob wrote: Q: If a Burning Chariot takes its option to be accompanied
by three Blue Horrors, does this mean I add three Blue Horror
models from the Horrors datasheet and form a mixed unit?
A: No. This option is referring to the optional Blue
Horror crew that come with the Burning Chariot kit and
are placed on top of the chariot alongside the Exalted
Flamer. If you have them, you simply get the benefits
listed in the Burning Chariot’s Irritating Chant ability.
Oooooh spicy! --- Oddly enough battlescribe charges 15pts for blues on a herald + chariot but on an exalter flamer + chariot its free
So... what are you not sure about. It is exactly what the FAQ said
Probably the fact that your comment was more condescension, where as captain Bobs was a copy paste of the FAQ.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Be'Lakor is just not as good as a DP in a Daemon army. That's it. Costs too much, has powers you can't cast neither on him nor the Daemon army. Nothing more to say. I thought he was good too, but then I actually tried making lists and he's nowhere to be seen, while at least 1 DP is in every list
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.
If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.
One last thing though, if you think Belakor is useless in a Daemon army, then you never used him right.
He has reroll 1s, deathhex, prescience (for obliterators which are in fact daemons), or whatever power.
Sure some are heretic astartes only, but he can only cast 2. so if you take deathhex and infernal gaze or whatever, his powers arent useless. just as i stated with oblits. he has 7 attacks, where 6 of them are a big sword that rips everything apart, can fly 14" and LD malus aura and Reroll failed saves.
I dunno but he is better than a regular daemon prince.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Be'Lakor is just not as good as a DP in a Daemon army. That's it. Costs too much, has powers you can't cast neither on him nor the Daemon army. Nothing more to say. I thought he was good too, but then I actually tried making lists and he's nowhere to be seen, while at least 1 DP is in every list
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Burning Chariot thing is really simple. The 3 blue horrors is just a passive upgrade(-1 to casts) that costs 3x5(blue horror pts cost). That's it. They don't do anything else. They don't smite, they don't punch.
If anyone tells you otherwise, they are really really stupid.
Huh, not sure about that, seeing as the original rules as written were completely unclear on the subject. My interpretation was by far the most likely, as things like a gun turrets crew can still shoot and get their own separate attacks and wounds. Your definition isn't supported by any other rules I can think of.
Except of course there's that faq that I hadn't noticed existing, which shows its actually meant to just be a "15 points for - 1 to psychic rolls" buff lol. Not sure if thats worth the 15points or not.
Niiru wrote: In my search for an alternative model for an exalted flamer, I have come across a couple options. I did also try and find a mounted mage/sorcerer of some sort, but was unable to find anything. Surpring, actually, even in the Age of Sigmar range, but all the mounted sorcerers were on giant dragons or something, and so were far too big.
I used the Reaper fire elementals as talosi last ed in my DE coven lists. Mounted them all on dreadnought bases and they worked well. Think I might steal your idea and run them as exalted flamers now.
Haha when I read this at first I imagined the fire elementals mounted onto dreadnought *legs*, not just 60mm bases. Would have been funny. Could you post a photo of an elemental next to a csm or something, as it's hard to see scale in the pics I've found. Curious what they'd look like on tabletop. Are they talos sized?
Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs
Automatically Appended Next Post: @bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability
rvd1ofakind wrote: Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs
Automatically Appended Next Post: @bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability
The GT list argument We have different oppinions, its okay.
IMO the only thing regular DP are used over him, is because of the cheaper costs (most of the time double talon princes)
But he is better than a regular DP.
Personally I think Be'lakor shines best in a combined Daemons/CSM list. He can buff the CSM units with his powers, but his aura benefits Daemons, which I guess could include CSM Daemon units like Obliterators. I'm still looking for ways to make him work well; my only time trying him out he didn't accomplish a whole lot. But that was due to bad tactics on my part rather than just the old "Be'lakor sucks" routine.
What is it that makes the burning chariot so much better than flamers, is it the heavy weapon with better str and -ap? would this mean that if i'm likely to face more standard units/troops than heavy stuff I may want to consider flamers over chariots?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs
Automatically Appended Next Post: @bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability
The GT list argument We have different oppinions, its okay.
IMO the only thing regular DP are used over him, is because of the cheaper costs (most of the time double talon princes)
But he is better than a regular DP.
Okay, what is a better view of the Meta and what is strong and what isn't. Ofc Be'Lakor is better than a DP. He's supposed to be, being 50 points more expensive. However he is NOT 50 pts better.
When you tell someone to buy a miniature and say "he's awesome" or whatever, that's what I have a problem with. Try "He's not bad in-game, but I really like him from the lore" or something along those lines
rvd1ofakind wrote: Oh yeah. If Be'Lakor is so good, show me a single GT list that did well with him. There are plenty with regular DPs
Automatically Appended Next Post: @bluecrewguy
I think you're making assumptions based on 7th. Same as people who thought the shooter rolls the explode roll when it is a unit ability
The GT list argument We have different oppinions, its okay.
IMO the only thing regular DP are used over him, is because of the cheaper costs (most of the time double talon princes)
But he is better than a regular DP.
Okay, what is a better view of the Meta and what is strong and what isn't. Ofc Be'Lakor is better than a DP. He's supposed to be, being 50 points more expensive. However he is NOT 50 pts better.
When you tell someone to buy a miniature and say "he's awesome" or whatever, that's what I have a problem with. Try "He's not bad in-game, but I really like him from the lore" or something along those lines
LOL i dont tell anybody to buy anything. and FOR ME in MY games belakor rocked!
so why shouldnt i recommend him?
i'll let it go now....cause its getting off-topic somehow.
How do we feel about chaos spawn and Gigantic chaos spawn? Do they fulfill the same role? One is certainly more economical, and I could get some from the FLGS tomorrow rather than order from FW. If Gigantics are a superior option however, I think i'm ready to buy a couple. Also --- I'm assuming given both models' atrocious move speed after taking a single wound that you would want to summon them, or use them as objective sponges?
I'm considering trying some out as honestly I want some more character screen and don't wanna spend another $100+ for 30 brimstone horrors and 30 blue horrors to add to my pile of unused horrors.
My other thoughts were maybe some t-sons tzaangor's? but I don't know anything about them I just know I want some t-suns models to paint eventually.
Trancefate wrote: How do we feel about chaos spawn and Gigantic chaos spawn? Do they fulfill the same role? One is certainly more economical, and I could get some from the FLGS tomorrow rather than order from FW. If Gigantics are a superior option however, I think i'm ready to buy a couple. Also --- I'm assuming given both models' atrocious move speed after taking a single wound that you would want to summon them, or use them as objective sponges?
I'm considering trying some out as honestly I want some more character screen and don't wanna spend another $100+ for 30 brimstone horrors and 30 blue horrors to add to my pile of unused horrors.
My other thoughts were maybe some t-sons tzaangor's? but I don't know anything about them I just know I want some t-suns models to paint eventually.
I plan to run one or two giant spawns in my planned list, but I am converting my own models for it. Considering all the bits and stuff I'm buying for it, it'll probably not work out that much cheaper lol but I prefer my version of the giant spawn (fitting my theme, at least).
Giant spawn does slow down below 10 wounds thats true, but remember that you roll for their stats every turn, and a roll of a 1 or 6 on any of the dice you roll leads to gaining more wounds. Your enemy pretty much has to shoot at them to stop them turning into monsters, which for 75 points isn't a bad investment I don't think.
If you're lucky, beginning of turn 1 you might be straight up to 13 wounds, and if you ever get into combat you'll get 3 dice rolls per turn where you might gain wounds... that 3-9 wounds *per turn*. Your opponent decides to charge you in their turn? Oops, have to roll for strength and attacks again, 2-6 more wounds please.
Has anyone been running the Lord of Change? I honestly feel that it might just be inferior to running multiple cheaper costed psykers, but I love the model...
Lords of Change are bad for a number of reasons - it's very expensive points wise without doing anything to justify the cost, it has a weak melee profile compared to other units of its size, the Tzeentch discipline sucks so having two Tzeentch powers sucks... I can't think of any instance where having a Lord of Change would be better than having multiple Heralds of equivalent cost.
Arachnofiend wrote: Lords of Change are bad for a number of reasons - it's very expensive points wise without doing anything to justify the cost, it has a weak melee profile compared to other units of its size, the Tzeentch discipline sucks so having two Tzeentch powers sucks... I can't think of any instance where having a Lord of Change would be better than having multiple Heralds of equivalent cost.
I have found this to be the case. I just proxy mine as aetaos'rau'keres on occasion - you know, for when I want to wreck face in the name of Tzeentch.
Cephalobeard wrote: Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.
I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.
A worthy point. I should have added, perhaps, I play amongst friends where this has been pre-agreed as a reasonable proxy (and in return I'll accept opponents using a rhino as a predator or something for a game). In tournaments etc I'm sure it's different.
Totally. With buddies, go nuts and do whatever you'd like. I just make sure to note the distinction between formats, because you'll be surprised how often people are astounded when you tell them that their proxy with a 3" Difference in height alone won't fly. Haha. Carry on, Friend.
Arachnofiend wrote: Lords of Change are bad for a number of reasons - it's very expensive points wise without doing anything to justify the cost, it has a weak melee profile compared to other units of its size, the Tzeentch discipline sucks so having two Tzeentch powers sucks... I can't think of any instance where having a Lord of Change would be better than having multiple Heralds of equivalent cost.
This is what I feared, it's unfortunate to hear, but you're totally right.
I think just running 4x Herald of Tzeentch would be better than running a single Lord of Change :(
Hopefully with the release of a Chaos Daemons codex, or even a Thousand Sons Codex, the Tzeentch Spellcasting will be reworked to actually be useful...
Cephalobeard wrote: Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.
I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.
Another note here is make sure it's at least close to the right height if you are gonna use counts-as. Last tournament I went to my second round opponent tried to get me disqualified cause my aetaos' counts as is 8 3/4" tall whereas the actual model is 9 1/2"(arguable as there technically is no model other than fwLoC that everyone just accepts as him). Mind you I had sent in all my counts as (I use a fair amount cause rule of cool) into the TO the previous week to make sure everything I brought would be fine, but he still argued for a good twenty minutes and ended up just leaving after our game.
I know not exactly on topic but when it comes to aetaos people get real salty so it's best be prepared is all I'm saying xD
Cephalobeard wrote: Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.
I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.
Another note here is make sure it's at least close to the right height if you are gonna use counts-as. Last tournament I went to my second round opponent tried to get me disqualified cause my aetaos' counts as is 8 3/4" tall whereas the actual model is 9 1/2"(arguable as there technically is no model other than fwLoC that everyone just accepts as him). Mind you I had sent in all my counts as (I use a fair amount cause rule of cool) into the TO the previous week to make sure everything I brought would be fine, but he still argued for a good twenty minutes and ended up just leaving after our game.
I know not exactly on topic but when it comes to aetaos people get real salty so it's best be prepared is all I'm saying xD
...considering how line of sight works in this game, and that you no longer get cover saves if you're hiding behind other units, I don't even see how that 3/4" height difference could ever be in a situation where it would make a difference to a game...
If you were an inch *narrower*, then maybe you could argue it as you'd be able to hide behind smaller pieces of terrain (but again, this would depend on the terrain on the table). But height seems irrelevant in 8th. Unless you shrank the unit down to like 4" tall so it could hide behind building terrain.
Cephalobeard wrote: Casual reminder, in a competitive setting a Lord of Change is not an acceptable proxy for Aetaos without significantly converting and modifying.
I'm a broken record on this point, but it's worth mentioning every time someone brings up the contrary.
Another note here is make sure it's at least close to the right height if you are gonna use counts-as. Last tournament I went to my second round opponent tried to get me disqualified cause my aetaos' counts as is 8 3/4" tall whereas the actual model is 9 1/2"(arguable as there technically is no model other than fwLoC that everyone just accepts as him). Mind you I had sent in all my counts as (I use a fair amount cause rule of cool) into the TO the previous week to make sure everything I brought would be fine, but he still argued for a good twenty minutes and ended up just leaving after our game.
I know not exactly on topic but when it comes to aetaos people get real salty so it's best be prepared is all I'm saying xD
...considering how line of sight works in this game, and that you no longer get cover saves if you're hiding behind other units, I don't even see how that 3/4" height difference could ever be in a situation where it would make a difference to a game...
If you were an inch *narrower*, then maybe you could argue it as you'd be able to hide behind smaller pieces of terrain (but again, this would depend on the terrain on the table). But height seems irrelevant in 8th. Unless you shrank the unit down to like 4" tall so it could hide behind building terrain.
If that extra 3/4 of an inch allows you to somehow ignore LOS from an opponent who could normally clip your head, or Aetaos' enormous staff, then it's an advantage. You can gain LoS to a model from any point on the actual model in 8th, opposed to the "base" etc as 7th and such worked previously. This makes proxies and "counts as" far more divisive, because it's very easy to accidentally, or purposefully, gain an advantage or possibly more importantly have it perceived that you are doing so.
Edit: It's also worth noting, the reason WHY it's likely such a huge issue for people It isn't some fluffy troop choice you converted for your army, or some HQ you gave a different set of arms to fit a theme. It's a 700pt Superheavy montrosity that is so powerful it's banned from major events. You're actively gaming the system when using the model, and doing anything else to try to stretch that is when the cheese factor comes in and the patience dwindles.
Like I've quoted in my signature, you're definitely not a dick for using your rules. That's always fine. Just be as fair as possible to your opponent.
I, as an individual, would not be thrilled with that in a competitive setting. With my buddies, I don't care. However, my opinion is and always will be your "conversion" is YOUR obligation to bring the best model possible to your opponent. Saying "This smaller, cheaper model counts as this bigger, much more expensive model" that in this instance is so powerful, again, it's not even allowed in most large events, I'm less interested in believing you're doing your best to bring an appropriate model.
However, I'm just a dude. I'm not your TO.
I wouldn't play the dude in Canada who uses clay models to represent giant spawn, I'm not gonna play someone using a LoC as Aetaos. These are simply personal decisions.
Aetaos got 2nd in the biggest GT - NOVA open. He is Top 3 superheavy in the game. You cannot argue against that. You cannot go 12-0(into 12-1 in filnals IIRC) and not be worth it
rvd1ofakind wrote: Aetaos got 2nd in the biggest GT - NOVA open. He is Top 3 superheavy in the game. You cannot argue against that. You cannot go 12-0(into 12-1 in filnals IIRC) and not be worth it
It also seems like he might start being banned on the ITC circuit (Frontline Gaming/ SOCAL Open has already done that) :(
rvd1ofakind wrote: Aetaos got 2nd in the biggest GT - NOVA open. He is Top 3 superheavy in the game. You cannot argue against that. You cannot go 12-0(into 12-1 in filnals IIRC) and not be worth it
Do you have the army list? Im curious about what army set up he was using.
Cephalobeard wrote: I, as an individual, would not be thrilled with that in a competitive setting. With my buddies, I don't care. However, my opinion is and always will be your "conversion" is YOUR obligation to bring the best model possible to your opponent. Saying "This smaller, cheaper model counts as this bigger, much more expensive model" that in this instance is so powerful, again, it's not even allowed in most large events, I'm less interested in believing you're doing your best to bring an appropriate model.
However, I'm just a dude. I'm not your TO.
I wouldn't play the dude in Canada who uses clay models to represent giant spawn, I'm not gonna play someone using a LoC as Aetaos. These are simply personal decisions.
I actually paid MORE for my conversion, $130 for the model is the wings form a LoC i added as a second set to be taller, and I he rhino I chopped in half to mount him on. This was not a model based on price, I dislike the FWLoC so I used something else.
Cephalobeard wrote: I, as an individual, would not be thrilled with that in a competitive setting. With my buddies, I don't care. However, my opinion is and always will be your "conversion" is YOUR obligation to bring the best model possible to your opponent. Saying "This smaller, cheaper model counts as this bigger, much more expensive model" that in this instance is so powerful, again, it's not even allowed in most large events, I'm less interested in believing you're doing your best to bring an appropriate model.
However, I'm just a dude. I'm not your TO.
I wouldn't play the dude in Canada who uses clay models to represent giant spawn, I'm not gonna play someone using a LoC as Aetaos. These are simply personal decisions.
I actually paid MORE for my conversion, $130 for the model is the wings form a LoC i added as a second set to be taller, and I he rhino I chopped in half to mount him on. This was not a model based on price, I dislike the FWLoC so I used something else.
I'm aware. We've discussed this at length. Opinion and warning to others remains the same.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Aetaos got 2nd in the biggest GT - NOVA open. He is Top 3 superheavy in the game. You cannot argue against that. You cannot go 12-0(into 12-1 in filnals IIRC) and not be worth it
Do you have the army list? Im curious about what army set up he was using.
Supreme command:
5 Malefic Lords
Aetaos'rao'keres
Supreme command:
5 Malefic Lords
Brigade (YES, A BRIGADE)
3 Malefic Lords (for a total of 13)
Changeling
10 pink horrors
5x 10 brimstones 1 blue
3 x scout sentinels with lascannons
3 x heavy weapon squads with mortars
3 x command squads with lascannons
In my games i felt Pink Horrors overprized and really worthless, beside one turn of smite.
Cant shoot, cant fight, cant smite anymore (never really could).
Overprized, a mega waste.
I really regret, buying 30 of them.
I like (i really do) the rest of list, especially the mortar teams and the keres.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: What are peoples thoughts on the GuO? Is it worth it in a combined csm/cd list or not?
I don't know if it's efficient or competitive, but it's a fun unit to use. The Plague Flail's ability gives you some interesting options, he takes a bunch of damage and can heal with the one spell, and he should kill most things he gets into combat with. Makes a nice wrecking ball if you can get him up the board while tying things up with faster units like Drones or DPs.
Is there a possibility to play Skarbrand without taking him from the table after Turn 1 (due to mass Lasca shots etc.)?
Are the Start-collecting Boxes worth their money, especially Slaanesh, Nurgle and/or Khorne?
Is it worth using Heralds to buff CSM-Daemon units? (edit i.e. Possessed & LasherFiends in particular, maybe even Mutilators(yeah i know, don't ask - i just like them))
Now, i'm not a competitive player - i've never even played in a tournament because.. well, i'm gak at the game, i just love converting, painting & casually playing - but i like to win everyone once in a while
Niiru wrote: Could someone tell me the rough size of the slaanesh chariot, and/or the tzeentch chariot, in comparison to say... a rhino or a land raider footprint?
It's for conversion purposes, so a rough length/width would be ideal. And the base size, if it comes on a base... I assume large oval 120mmx92mm?
Exalted slannesh is on 120mm oval, it is also roughly 170mm at longest point and 170mm at widest point including spikes and tongues.
Personally, I don't see big Bird as being as overly broken as he's been made out to be by some. Just because some lists have a hard time countering him doesn't mean he's literally bannable
Some lists have just as hard a time countering celestine, mortarion, or just msu guard spam and to blanket the tourney world with a ban on cool models that just so happen to have a large power level seems knee jerk at best.
Congrats on what seems a great daemon list. Go tzeentch!
rvd1ofakind wrote: Aetaos got 2nd in the biggest GT - NOVA open. He is Top 3 superheavy in the game. You cannot argue against that. You cannot go 12-0(into 12-1 in filnals IIRC) and not be worth it
Out of curiosity, do you know what the other 2 awesome superheavies are? I'm guessing gulliman and magnus?
Here's an idea I had while fiddling around with Battlescribe. Basically a Monster Mash with the two Daemon Primarchs and a supporting cast.
Detachment 1: Super-heavy Detachment
Magnus the Red
Mortarion
Renegade Knight: RF Battle Cannon w/Heavy Stubber, AGC w/Heavy Flamer, Stormspear Rocket Pod
Detachment 2: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
The Changeling
Malefic Lord
Malefic Lord
Troops:
Horrors: 9 Brimstone, 1 Blue
Horrors: 9 Brimstone, 1 Blue
Nurglings: 4 bases
Elites:
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
Heavy Support:
Wyvern: Heavy Bolter (Renegades and Heretics)
Now, I don't have anywhere near the models to pull this off, but it seems like it would be pretty fun! The Nurglings could screw with Infiltrators somewhat, the Horrors could hold objectives with the Changeling protecting them and the E-flamers, the Knight and Wyvern could sit back and pound on the enemy, and the Primarchs could rush forward and kill stuff. Seems like a decent plan to me, but I'm not sure. I might just have to borrow the models and give this one a go!
Well, say you warp time one of the Daemon Primarchs, say Mortarion in. So, Magnus is still in the midfield and can only charge next turn.
The opponent is still stuck between a rock and a hard place. Does he try and kill off Mortarion, who is already in amongst his battle line and pulsing mortal wounds, or does he try and focus down Magnus, who will definitely be charging his battle lines next turn and is already lobbing high damage smite and other psychic powers.
I feel that it doesn't matter which one of the two you warp time in, because the other is definitely set to charge the following turn. The implicit threat is already there.
This past weekend I won a local 20-person tournament using Magnus and Mortarion. It was a fun list to play, but can definitely get unlucky and you have to sweat bullets with every move you make. It also sucks that all Imperial players can easily just spam Culuxus assassins.
I think Aetos is not that bad - the bigger problem is that all the lists that use him all spam Malefic Lords. I think if you couldn't combine a super expensive unit with lots of underpriced good units those lists would be more tame.
so are chaos furies worth it at all? I was gonna try and screen my DP with them as they can move faster than cultists. Also wondering about potential flying circus with DPs( I have three)
So I took 3rd place in a 1500pt. local tourney with:
Vanguard Detachment +1CP
Belakor
6 Flamers of Tzeentch
6 Flamers of Tzeentch
6 Flamers of Tzeentch
1 Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch
1 Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch
1 Exalted Flamer of Tzeentch
Supreme Command Detachment +1 CP
1 Daemon Prince w/mark of Tzeentch extra maelific talons
1 Daemon Prince w/mark of Tzeentch extra maelific talons
1 Daemon Prince w/mark of Tzeentch extra maelific talons
PROS:
The Flamers are 12 wounds 4++ screens for the Exalted Flamers and Princes and when they get within 8" the auto hits are fantastic with -1AP. Even when opponents deepstriked units behind them to get at my characters the daemon princes were able to tank the hits with their 3+/4++ and polish them off. Because they have pistols and the fly keyword they do just fine in CC.
Smite spam (when it works) is legit.
Belakor with Death Hex, Warp Time and the warlord trait for an extra attack when he charges can just about assassinate anything within 30" of him. He is auto include for me now.
The entire army is fast and can fly. The slowest model still moves 10". I was ably to apply units where and when they were needed and rack up points in Maelstrom and leave CC that was unfavourable.
CONS:
Not having objective secured troops. My one loss vs. CSM was simply because I couldn't kill 1 chaos space marine (kept rolling 1's to wound) who was objective secured off an objective in the last turn of the game where I had more models than him within 3", but none are troops.
Relying on Smite. I had 1 game with 3 consecutive turns where I was only able to get 1 Smite off due to either poor rolling on my part or getting denied because my rolls were low.
If you really need the Str9 shooting on the Exalted Flamers then they often will often have to expose themselves negating their character benefits and they are quite fragile for their cost.
Be'Lakor cannot Warp Time himself as he is not Heretic Astartes. Had you been doing so, you may want to apologize to your opponents for accidentally cheating, lol
Cephalobeard wrote: Be'Lakor cannot Warp Time himself as he is not Heretic Astartes. Had you been doing so, you may want to apologize to your opponents for accidentally cheating, lol
You're right. Didn't catch that. He never cast it in any of my games. Only Smite and Death Hex.
He's a weird little unit, and I believe is the only one in the game that cannot cast any of his buffs on himself or other things he shares a keyword with.
Here's hoping the Daemon Codex brings us good things.
If running Be'lakor in a Daemons-only list, just take Death Hex and Infernal Gaze as those don't require anything to have the Heretic Astartes keyword. You may not ever use Infernal Gaze much, but it's still okay to have just in case nothing in your opponent's army has an invulnerable save.
arhurt wrote: When running exalted flamers, do you ever use the Pistol weapon in liew of his heavy weapon?
Do you try to keep them stationary to not suffer -1 to hit or don't even bother with that and just move them wherever necessary?
They were always on the move in my games unless they got assaulted. Even then they would fly out of combat so they could shoot the higher str profile. 10" move + 18" gun seems you could park on turn 2, but in my games I had to keep moving to avoid assaults or draw line of sight on the targets I wanted. For example, In my game against Chaos, I was moving to stay out of rapid fire range ( he had 2 blobs of 20 man Word Bearers with 2 lascannons each), but get close enough them to shoot as well.
Yes, the pistol gets used quite a bit when shooting at infantry units and Overwatch.
I'm leaning heavily towards making a Slaaneshi CSM/demon force.
One model that I really like is the Fiend Of Slaanesh. I like the look of the model. Problem is, they seem sort of bad. And expensive. I've been trying to research tactics for them and can't find much for 8ed, which makes me think they are not used often. Basically, there's an ongoing conversation in my head like this:
child me: "I really want those cool models."
adult me: "dude, no they're not that good"
child me: "but they're going to look really good in the green and pink Slaanesh theme"
adult me: "they're 46 points for S3 T4"
child me: "but it'll be fun!"
adult me: "they're 30 bucks for 46 points! a large unit will cost more than a hundred bucks!"
child me: "they have bug eyes, scorpion tails and claws. I want them! now!"
So I came to the demon tactica thread hoping to gain some insight on how to actually play these models. Does anyone use them effectively? If so, how? Help child me win the argument.
A single model, not a good save, poor stats, expensive, my best advice would be not to use one at all until a codex either makes them better or replaces them with a different unit completely.
A single model, not a good save, poor stats, expensive, my best advice would be not to use one at all until a codex either makes them better or replaces them with a different unit completely.
Thank you for the no nonsense reply. They are bad. My dreams are crushed. I suppose if I love the models that much I suppose I can convert them into something else.
I really don't want to just paint my CSM pink, throw in a Keeper Of Secrets and call my army Slaaneshi. Are there any other Slaanesh demon units that are decent that could add some fluff and feeling to my CSM?
A single model, not a good save, poor stats, expensive, my best advice would be not to use one at all until a codex either makes them better or replaces them with a different unit completely.
Thank you for the no nonsense reply. They are bad. My dreams are crushed. I suppose if I love the models that much I suppose I can convert them into something else.
I really don't want to just paint my CSM pink, throw in a Keeper Of Secrets and call my army Slaaneshi. Are there any other Slaanesh demon units that are decent that could add some fluff and feeling to my CSM?
Zarakynel, the greater Daemon from FW is a pretty spicy little meatball and isn't super expensive, point wise. Seeker heralds are amazing for their speed. Chaos Lords on Slaanesh steeds are also, technically, Daemons. A lord on steed w/ 2 lightning claws is like just barely over 100pts and does tons of attacks. Give them some Heralds and they're S5 slice and dice boys.
A single model, not a good save, poor stats, expensive, my best advice would be not to use one at all until a codex either makes them better or replaces them with a different unit completely.
Thank you for the no nonsense reply. They are bad. My dreams are crushed. I suppose if I love the models that much I suppose I can convert them into something else.
I really don't want to just paint my CSM pink, throw in a Keeper Of Secrets and call my army Slaaneshi. Are there any other Slaanesh demon units that are decent that could add some fluff and feeling to my CSM?
Zarakynel, the greater Daemon from FW is a pretty spicy little meatball and isn't super expensive, point wise. Seeker heralds are amazing for their speed. Chaos Lords on Slaanesh steeds are also, technically, Daemons. A lord on steed w/ 2 lightning claws is like just barely over 100pts and does tons of attacks. Give them some Heralds and they're S5 slice and dice boys.
That definitely gives me something to work with. Zarakynel is around the dollar cost of those fiends I was hoping to buy. The chariot certainly has a Slaanesh look and feel to it. I was already looking at the fantasy Lord of Slaanesh on the mount, it wouldn't be too hard to put some lightning claws on it. This was super helpful, much appreciated!
arhurt wrote: We all agree that soul grinders are terrible given their low BS and inability to negate the - 1 from moving and firing heavy weapons right?
Daemons are in a very weird place, where there are a small handful of units, (Princes, Exalted Flamers, BRIMSTONE** Horrors, Changeling) that are good, and everything else is absolutely hot, steaming Garbage.
Screamers, Flamers (these are okay, at best), Chariots, Lords of Change, Kairos, All Khorne Daemons, almost all Slaanesh daemons, it's just really, really bad. They have very little impact, then either not enough movement or synergy (why do TZEENTCH HERALDS give a STR bonus?) to themselves, otherwise.
Cephalobeard wrote: Daemons are in a very weird place, where there are a small handful of units, (Princes, Exalted Flamers, BRIMSTONE** Horrors, Changeling) that are good, and everything else is absolutely hot, steaming Garbage.
Screamers, Flamers (these are okay, at best), Chariots, Lords of Change, Kairos, All Khorne Daemons, almost all Slaanesh daemons, it's just really, really bad. They have very little impact, then either not enough movement or synergy (why do TZEENTCH HERALDS give a STR bonus?) to themselves, otherwise.
I strongly agree. Daemons need a codex very badly. The points drops helped but they are not enough. I think Slaanesh is good but suffers from the same issues as the rest of the codex, i.e. shooting armies are too good and the new bonkers IG codex makes the best shooting army even stronger. And on top of that Grey Knights are extra strong versus daemons, and then IG also just got a new anti-Chaos super relic.
Some thoughts about what could change with a codex.
Will nurgle daemons the mortal wounds for standing there beasts that death guard can be?
Will the Warp Storm be a stratagem, like the boon table?
Will chaos daemons gain a unique keyword that isn't just DAEMON?
Do you think daemons will resume the role of "Cog in your plans" army that they have been in the past.
I think daemons have a long way to go for their codex. Whatever GW will do with slaanesh, in any event we need a good lot of new sculpts for a huge chunk of the codex. I worry we may be one of the last.
I don't want to see the Warpstorm table come back, at all. I want to see gods get their flair back.
Nurgle should be incredibly beefy, for defense. Being close to them should be bad, like the current "mortal wound" aura idea.
Tzeentch should be all about spells. Abilities that allow them to ignore the once per turn ability, Kairos should be primarch level with his abilities and stats.
Slaanesh should all run and charge, having an increased save in melee to reflect their dexterity.
Khorne should do massive amounts of attacks at a high STR rating, and possibly gain benefits off of the number of units slain during the battle.
All greater Daemons need to be reduced in points or massively increased in power.
I want to run Kairos. I want to run lords of change. Hell, I want to run Pink Horrors. None of that is viable, in the slightest.
Pink horrors are simultaneously the best and worst unit to have in your list. If you are playing power level they are great, but points play they are terrible. The whole split system needs reworking because you get better mileage out of multiple brimstone units than a pink unit point for point.
I personally would love to see a version of Daemonic Instability come back, something like: "Each model slain in the assault phase counts for two slain models in the moral phase. Models slain in any other phase do not count towards the slain tally for Morale"
I think this would help daemons get where they want to be and negates our poor leadership against shooting armies.
I feel Slaanesh stuff apart from Daemonettes, heralds and daemon princes are overpriced, seekers are just so ridiculously over costed at 19pts they should be more like 12-14 like they used to be.
The keeper of secrets is good if he actually reaches combat but he never will with a disgraceful 5++ .
I think Seekers are reasonably priced. Similar damage/survivability as 2 daemonetts, but with twice the move and advance+charge. They are capable of threatening upto 34" worth of stuff! Probably the best Slaanesh unit IMO.
Totally agree on KoS though. The only chance it has to survive is if you provide more immediate threats for your opponent to deal with.
Everything not seeing play is overpriced. How can you say deamonettes are fine if they are completelly outclassed by bloodletters, not to mention most of the troops in game?
They should be 6pts
Cephalobeard wrote: Daemons are in a very weird place, where there are a small handful of units, (Princes, Exalted Flamers, BRIMSTONE** Horrors, Changeling) that are good, and everything else is absolutely hot, steaming Garbage.
Screamers, Flamers (these are okay, at best), Chariots, Lords of Change, Kairos, All Khorne Daemons, almost all Slaanesh daemons, it's just really, really bad. They have very little impact, then either not enough movement or synergy (why do TZEENTCH HERALDS give a STR bonus?) to themselves, otherwise.
Does everyone feel that way about Burning Chariots? I've been using 1-3 (I am VERY new I must admit) and they always seem to get quite a bit of work done just tying things up infront of daemon princes. Is there a unit I could be doing this better with or a better way to get my other stuff in without being sploded? It does seem like their ballistic skill is a little low to make reliable use of the blue flame unless you are placed defensively.
JakeSiren wrote: Would 6 points even be reasonable for them? I still don't see myself taking them over bloodletters to save 30 points on a full squad.
Bloodletters are s5 on the charge with 2 attacks each at ap -3.
Daemonettes are s3 on the charge with 2 attacks at ap-1 with a chance of ap-4.
I think Daemonetts need an additional attack to set themselves out from bloodletters.
Yeah, actually doing the math they need to be 5 pts each. As then their damage would equal bloodletters against hordes. Bloodletters would still remain better against armour. However Daemonettes would have the durability advantage through sheer numbers
So I played a 1k points game yesterday, my Nurgle Daemons vs a friends Ynnari.
He was packing 2 x Archons, Kabalite Warriors, Wyches, Kabalite Trueborn, a clawed fiend, scourges, as well as a raider and some Venoms.
I was running a full squad of Nurglings, full squad of Plague Drones, a GUO, Epidemus, and a Fetid Bloat Drone. (I ran the death guard datasheet versions where appropriate)
Given the amount of poison that he had in his list I was sure he was going to wipe out my GUO and Plague Drones with ease.
We played the Eternal War Retrieval Mission. I managed to lose the roll off for placing objectives which allowed me to chose the map deployment type. Given the nature of his army I chose Front-Line Assault. to reduce the amount of distance I needed to cover before I got to him.
Since I had less drops I had the option to go first. He had deployed towards the back of the board, so I was unable to get close enough to even try and assault.
I cast smite with my GUO and rolled over a 10. He then rolled a 6 for the number of mortal wounds which was enough to kill one of the Venoms. First blood to me.
His turn one had his scourges drop down and shoot at Epidemus. No damage was suffered. The rest of the turn was then spent largely shooting at my Plague Drones which due to a combination of bad rolling on his behalf and good rolling on mine only resulted in two casualties.
He charged into the drones with both units of Warriors, and due to mis-measurement he found himself out of SfD range for most of his other units.
My turn two was spent having the drones finishing off the two warrior squads. My Fetid Bloat Drone moved up to put some pain onto one of his vehicles and assault into an Archon. The second Archon in his list intervened, but neither of them could put any real pain onto the Bloat Drone.
His turn two had his archons run back into his raider and run away. More shooting occurred at the Plague Drones and dropped a few more. I got lucky and rolled a 1 for moral and returned one to play.
The rest of the turns were largely spent with the Plague Drones + Fetid Bloat Drone chasing the vehicles around and taking them out. Turn 5 resulted in a tabling for my friend.
Over all the Plague Drones performed remarkably well. The Bloat Drone was nice as it synergized well with the rest of the army and helped towards Epidemus's count. The GUO was largely irrelevant due to the other fast units in my list (maybe a winged Daemon Price could work better?). With a different deployment map I think that game would have gone differently as he would have got more shooting off and been able to kite my units better.
Tzeentch/etc unit review by a complete newb (I've played 4 games and done a whole lot of reading).
Spoiler:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings & Talons: A- These guys really melt faces when they get in to combat, and the aura is a nice cherry on top. If I run less than 3 of them however they seem to become expensive bullet magnets. The remedy to this is having a unit infront to screen them, but horrors are too slow unless you wait for turn 3 to charge a shooty army. More smites is good. Plan on experimenting footslogging a non winged nurgle one or two and herald behind two 30man plaguebearer squads this week, will update you on that.
Herald of Tzeentch +/- Chariot: C- The foot slogging model is okay for cheap 24'' smite, but in the long run they just feel like double cost gakky malefic lords. Str buff seems pretty useless to my horror blob, and well... pretty much all tzeentch units. The one on chariot can keep up with princes to buff them to 8str which could be significant against marines etc.
The Changeling: A+ The aura is just too valuable to pass up for 100pts, he forms the core of my "tasty candy center" protected by horrors, and is usually my warlord pick unless I suspect enemy assassins (Maybe this isn't smart of me? but he never really gets hit so far) . The melee is really just an unnecessary bonus, but can be surprisingly good if you use it properly. I managed to get one into the backline, copy an Azrael/weapon and exploded an enemy parking lot with it recently. Smite is good.
Pink Horrors: D+ They cost SO much for a unit that has a typical lifecycle as follows [Advance, fire 20 shots, deal between 0-notfuckingone wounds, fail to manifest smite, lose 6 models, spend CPor lose models to morale, wish you'd brought brimstones instead] I've tried to work them into my armies but I just can't. I could see some validity in a larger squad of them with points in reserve to be flexible with your reinforcements... however even then with the way morale eats away the unit right now I can't find that feasible. Even if it were a good strategy, blues do the same thing for half the points and 1 split is just fine. The change to smite really makes no sense considering I could still take just under 3 squads of brim+blue and still get about as much smite dmg out.
Blue Horrors: F+ Trashbag garbage unit. Good for putting a single one in a brimstone unit so they don't lose a model when smiting (hence the F+). If you were going to employ a strat where you wanted a sticky unit using split mechanics I suppose you would be better off running blues than pinks.
Brimstone Horrors: S Without these guys I would literally die to marines before I got to make charges. Every game I've played has them performing equally to pink horror squads at around 1/3 the cost. If these weren't in our list I would lose 300-500 points to shooting on turn 1 in my 1000-1500 point games. They can even smite and the only risk is you lose a 3 pt model.. whoopee?
Flamers: C+ I've had mixed results with flamers. They have a tendency to get rubbed out early and provide first blood, however if I can get them properly positioned on a unit they can really unleash hell; letting 9d6 automatic hit shots off on cheap models (or any for that matter) is satisfying. All in all I feel like they may be better than I have experienced so far but take a different type of list than I bring or perhaps simply improved strategy. Furthermore, I have yet to fight an army that really wants to be in melee with me, I can see these being a very useful screen against charging/deepstriking units.
Burning Chariot: B The heavy blue flame hits like a MAC TRUCK, however the model has a relatively low BS and is going to be moving. I personally haven't needed the anti armor from it so far due to the limited games/opponents I have faced, however I can see that becoming an issue (one helped in part by positioning I suppose). The pink flame is a normal flamer pistol 1d6 auto hit, which is nice on a flying unit that is also fairly effective in melee. I personally use these units as a moving screen and tie up shooters and priority targets with them ahead of my Daemon Princes. I've read that some people don't like them but I don't understand the reasoning and I'd love to be enlightened as to what these should actually be used for, if anything.
Malefic Lord: S+++++++++++++++Lololol 30 points? Why do the heralds even exist? See below for a fun 1k army list your buddies are sure to love playing against!
Super fun awesome not even a bit cheese list that won't totally destroy friendships:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [11 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Boon of Change
The Changeling [5 PL, 100pts]: Boon of Change
+ Troops +
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [5 PL, 32pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
+ Heavy Support +
Burning Chariot [5 PL, 98pts]
Burning Chariot [5 PL, 98pts]
++ Total: [100 PL, 998pts] ++
Thanks for reading my drivel and I look forward to your input/discussion
Edit 374: Captains log, star date 95360.79... it has been a troubling mission, but we successfully learned the intricacies of, and established communication with, the spoiler tag.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You do not choose the deployment type. You roll for it.
Has there been an errata for it? Because that's not what the mission sheet says.
the mission sheet does say that.
I found a copy of the mission online (spoiled for size), but it clearly says the person who puts down the last objective marker choses the map and which zone they are in. It also matches my physical copy. Do you have a digital copy of the rulebook where it may have been updated?
The rule is found on page 216, in the little paragraph under the header: "When playing matched play missions, you must randomly select one of these deployment maps."
Cephalobeard wrote: Daemons are in a very weird place, where there are a small handful of units, (Princes, Exalted Flamers, BRIMSTONE** Horrors, Changeling) that are good, and everything else is absolutely hot, steaming Garbage.
Screamers, Flamers (these are okay, at best), Chariots, Lords of Change, Kairos, All Khorne Daemons, almost all Slaanesh daemons, it's just really, really bad. They have very little impact, then either not enough movement or synergy (why do TZEENTCH HERALDS give a STR bonus?) to themselves, otherwise.
Does everyone feel that way about Burning Chariots? I've been using 1-3 (I am VERY new I must admit) and they always seem to get quite a bit of work done just tying things up infront of daemon princes. Is there a unit I could be doing this better with or a better way to get my other stuff in without being sploded? It does seem like their ballistic skill is a little low to make reliable use of the blue flame unless you are placed defensively.
I used 3 in the beginning of 8th. Then I got a better taste of how characters work, and just replaced them with Exalted Flamers.
Discodoggy wrote: I'm leaning heavily towards making a Slaaneshi CSM/demon force.
One model that I really like is the Fiend Of Slaanesh. I like the look of the model. Problem is, they seem sort of bad. And expensive. I've been trying to research tactics for them and can't find much for 8ed, which makes me think they are not used often. Basically, there's an ongoing conversation in my head like this:
child me: "I really want those cool models."
adult me: "dude, no they're not that good"
child me: "but they're going to look really good in the green and pink Slaanesh theme"
adult me: "they're 46 points for S3 T4"
child me: "but it'll be fun!"
adult me: "they're 30 bucks for 46 points! a large unit will cost more than a hundred bucks!"
child me: "they have bug eyes, scorpion tails and claws. I want them! now!"
So I came to the demon tactica thread hoping to gain some insight on how to actually play these models. Does anyone use them effectively? If so, how? Help child me win the argument.
I have like 30 fiends left over from playing Chaos Daemons in 5th edition... every new codex, I hope they are better... and every codex I die a little inside.
They're horsefaced boob monsters with scorpion tales and "robster craws". What's not to love?
I'm refurbing my old Daemons for Allies and Summoning with my Word Bearers. I'm working on my BT and got a LoC to fix up as well, any recommendations on their use?
So far I'm finding Fiends very interesting, that 'you can't fall back' gimmick won my last game by keeping a Knight locked in combat with a CSM Daemon Prince. A squadron of them, some Seekers, a Herald and Steed Sorcerer are working well.
Discodoggy wrote: I'm leaning heavily towards making a Slaaneshi CSM/demon force.
One model that I really like is the Fiend Of Slaanesh. I like the look of the model. Problem is, they seem sort of bad. And expensive. I've been trying to research tactics for them and can't find much for 8ed, which makes me think they are not used often. Basically, there's an ongoing conversation in my head like this:
child me: "I really want those cool models."
adult me: "dude, no they're not that good"
child me: "but they're going to look really good in the green and pink Slaanesh theme"
adult me: "they're 46 points for S3 T4"
child me: "but it'll be fun!"
adult me: "they're 30 bucks for 46 points! a large unit will cost more than a hundred bucks!"
child me: "they have bug eyes, scorpion tails and claws. I want them! now!"
So I came to the demon tactica thread hoping to gain some insight on how to actually play these models. Does anyone use them effectively? If so, how? Help child me win the argument.
I have like 30 fiends left over from playing Chaos Daemons in 5th edition... every new codex, I hope they are better... and every codex I die a little inside.
They're horsefaced boob monsters with scorpion tales and "robster craws". What's not to love?
\
Preach... I have 18 from when they were murder machines in the 5th. Those were the days. Take 3 units of Fiends, 2 KOS, 3 Daemon Princes; all with Fleet and Hit & Run. Plus 2 minimum squads of Daemonettes. Glorious! In the 6-7th they were kinda pointless, but all the elites were bad then. I don't think they're terrible this edition, though. Having 4 attacks each at S4/AP-1/D2 is pretty good. They got a characterful bonus tail attack, and can prevent falling back. We can even get them back up to S5 again with a Herald. They do cost to much though; but I expect that'll change when we get our codex.
You guys think CD will get something like chapter tactics? I find that hard to believe. I wonder what GW will do with them as they seem more unique that way.
I remember Frankie from FLG hinting something about Chaos United when it came to Daemons.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You guys think CD will get something like chapter tactics? I find that hard to believe. I wonder what GW will do with them as they seem more unique that way.
I remember Frankie from FLG hinting something about Chaos United when it came to Daemons.
I think individual Daemon factions should have their own "tactics". So, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Khorne.
Daemons should have the option to be undivided, but give additional benefits to single gods. Chaos gods HATE eachother, they won't be thrilled to work together.
I'd like to see specific things for the four deities, the four pairs of non-rivals (KT, KN, TS, NS), and chaos united. Like Khornate warfare feeding the flames of Change. Khornate bloodshed feeding Nurglitch death. Tzeentchian change bringing Slaanesh closer to perfection. Slaaneshi decadence leading to Nurglitch decay. There could be a stratagem that's unlocked by each of the nine variants of detachment alignment that doesn't have a pair of bickering rivals.
But we already get bonuses for going mono-god. The Herald, Greater Daemon and DP auras. Which is why I assume we'll get different bonuses for going chaos undivided.
Well, I don't think chaos indived will have a (big) avantage.
The fact that Furies (who are supposed to be Chaos Undivided incarnate) have to take marks is a big hint.
I just hope we will have some units with a real deepstrike.
Those benefits are only actually helpful to like, half of them. It's absolutely pointless for Tzeentch. It's safe to assume they're just placeholder rules for now, I think.
I'm hoping auras become useful for daemons. I could see a chapter tactics thing being that the auras get stronger, or do more, as long as there is not a daemon with a different gods name within X inches.
Daemons are such an odd book. They are a whole army made up of 4 little armies.
Stuxseth wrote: Well, I don't think chaos indived will have a (big) avantage.
The fact that Furies (who are supposed to be Chaos Undivided incarnate) have to take marks is a big hint.
I just hope we will have some units with a real deepstrike.
1CP to deepstrike is something that will 99% happen.
rvd1ofakind wrote: You guys think CD will get something like chapter tactics? I find that hard to believe. I wonder what GW will do with them as they seem more unique that way.
I remember Frankie from FLG hinting something about Chaos United when it came to Daemons.
I think individual Daemon factions should have their own "tactics". So, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Khorne.
Daemons should have the option to be undivided, but give additional benefits to single gods. Chaos gods HATE eachother, they won't be thrilled to work together.
Chaos gods work together all the time. Each time the great game sees one god rise above the others, the rest will band together against him.
Alliances between the gods are very common. Undivided demons however is an impossibility.
Stuxseth wrote: Well, I don't think chaos indived will have a (big) avantage.
The fact that Furies (who are supposed to be Chaos Undivided incarnate) have to take marks is a big hint.
I just hope we will have some units with a real deepstrike.
1CP to deepstrike is something that will 99% happen.
I don't like idea to pay for something who should be possible by default on most of daemons units.
maybe 1d3 free deepstrike for each detachement
I played a game last night @1k points against a friend. He was fielding Space Marines with a Knight Errant (was expected ahead of time, so not a surprise). It was fairly defensive game (First Blood on turn 6!). The GUO punched above his weight IMO. He caused 18 wounds on the Knight (which some plague drones helped finish off). Being able to self heal, and improve his to-wound chances allowed him to stick around much longer and cause more damage than any other greater daemon would have.
I played a game last night @1k points against a friend. He was fielding Space Marines with a Knight Errant (was expected ahead of time, so not a surprise). It was fairly defensive game (First Blood on turn 6!). The GUO punched above his weight IMO. He caused 18 wounds on the Knight (which some plague drones helped finish off). Being able to self heal, and improve his to-wound chances allowed him to stick around much longer and cause more damage than any other greater daemon would have.
The named GUO is just so much better, if you have the points it's worth bringing Scaggy.
That said, I've had great luck with my GUO as well.
I played a game last night @1k points against a friend. He was fielding Space Marines with a Knight Errant (was expected ahead of time, so not a surprise). It was fairly defensive game (First Blood on turn 6!). The GUO punched above his weight IMO. He caused 18 wounds on the Knight (which some plague drones helped finish off). Being able to self heal, and improve his to-wound chances allowed him to stick around much longer and cause more damage than any other greater daemon would have.
The named GUO is just so much better, if you have the points it's worth bringing Scaggy.
That said, I've had great luck with my GUO as well.
Are you still running Scabeiathrax with success? What else you running, and any tips?
buddha wrote: How are players liking/hating the various slaanesh chariots so far in 8th?
I like them. I’ve got the little ones on my long-term to-do list, they seem interesting. Hellflayer is a nice alternative to more Flesh Hounds or Seekers in an Outriders. Daemon HS is a bad fit in my maximum Detachments list building style, but the Seeker Chariot is so cheap it’s a nice wild card to add to a Nurgling Battalion. At the very least, they’ll force enemies to position models carefully - and there’s nothing stopping us from making a Crazy Taxi drifting charge to get most of a firing line tagged by the scythes.
Though for one more Power, I’m definitely finishing my long-mothballed ESC first. The standard Seeker Chariot is going to be a Herald, who goes from being a fragile Possessed buffer and precision Smiter to a pretty capable charge leader. Herald on ESC is a no go due to the Wounds.
In games with limits on the number of Detachments, both types of Seeker Chariot would be even more tempting.
I would think that either variety of Seeker Chariot or the Hellflayer would just get picked off before they get close due to being fairly fragile. The regular one with a Herald at least benefits from being a character, so could make a pretty nasty surprise for an unwary opponent when it charges out from behind a screening unit. Daemons just need a codex to fix a lot of their issues and perhaps make a lot of these units playable again. The various chariots are really cool models and deserve some good rules.
As mentioned earlier, a Herald on Seeker Chariot could ride along with a unit of Slaanesh Possessed, who could be buffed by a Slaanesh Sorcerer with the Delightful Agonies power for the 5+ FnP. Of course a Herald on Steed would be cheaper, and even a footslogging one could keep up with Possessed easily enough, although not if they are in a Rhino (which they should be).
I just recently heard that that top Chaos player had an illegal list and was disqualified. Not sure if it's true or not. Something about his Renegade Knight costing like 30 points less than it should have.
And yes, It's true that the top Chaos player had an illegal list. Because spending 2 of your minutes to check the list on BattleScribe is too hard However, I'm talking about the top Chaos player AFTER the DQ.
And yes, It's true that the top Chaos player had an illegal list. Because spending 2 of your minutes to check the list on BattleScribe is too hard However, I'm talking about the top Chaos player AFTER the DQ.
His list was Obliterator spam
How was his list illegal? If it is I find that HILARIOUS because the NEXT best chaos player ALSO has an illegal list. You can only take 2 snipers in marauder squads XD.
Meaning if that oblit list is illegal, top 3 chaos players all had illegal lists.
And yes, It's true that the top Chaos player had an illegal list. Because spending 2 of your minutes to check the list on BattleScribe is too hard However, I'm talking about the top Chaos player AFTER the DQ.
His list was Obliterator spam
How was his list illegal? If it is I find that HILARIOUS because the NEXT best chaos player ALSO has an illegal list. You can only take 2 snipers in marauder squads XD.
Meaning if that oblit list is illegal, top 3 chaos players all had illegal lists.
Are you.... fn. kidding me. What was the 3rd illegal list?
almost 1000 pts of obliterators. Turns out, they're preeeeeeetty good...
I'm a bit confused... why changeling? doesn't seem to affect any of the units here unless I am missing something? Also, herald of nurgle for what? To buff the strength on your nurglings to 3? lol? Sorceror is nice for warptiming, but honestly this doesn't seem like a competitive list at all. If it did well it's because of the individual strength of the obliterator unit, not some genius mathematical pairing this guy has concocted.
almost 1000 pts of obliterators. Turns out, they're preeeeeeetty good...
I'm a bit confused... why changeling? doesn't seem to affect any of the units here unless I am missing something? Also, herald of nurgle for what? To buff the strength on your nurglings to 3? lol? Sorceror is nice for warptiming, but honestly this doesn't seem like a competitive list at all. If it did well it's because of the individual strength of the obliterator unit, not some genius mathematical pairing this guy has concocted.
Changeling affects the Tzeentch Oblits and the herald of nurgle is cheaper than a Tzeentch herald for a cheaper smiter. It's just bonus that he buffs the nurglings if that ever came up. The part about this list that really confuses me is why Slaanesh Cultists/Oblits? Is there a strategim that is usable in any legion that only works on Slaanesh that I'm missing? Probably a double shooting power but not sure myself (I'm a Thousand Sons player so haven't bothered buying the new Chaos book).
almost 1000 pts of obliterators. Turns out, they're preeeeeeetty good...
I'm a bit confused... why changeling? doesn't seem to affect any of the units here unless I am missing something? Also, herald of nurgle for what? To buff the strength on your nurglings to 3? lol? Sorceror is nice for warptiming, but honestly this doesn't seem like a competitive list at all. If it did well it's because of the individual strength of the obliterator unit, not some genius mathematical pairing this guy has concocted.
Changeling affects the Tzeentch Oblits and the herald of nurgle is cheaper than a Tzeentch herald for a cheaper smiter. It's just bonus that he buffs the nurglings if that ever came up. The part about this list that really confuses me is why Slaanesh Cultists/Oblits? Is there a strategim that is usable in any legion that only works on Slaanesh that I'm missing? Probably a double shooting power but not sure myself (I'm a Thousand Sons player so haven't bothered buying the new Chaos book).
Since the spearhead detachment is a full CSM detachment... he can use the double-shooting strategem.
Are the chaos space marines daemon princes any different? I'm curious, they seem identical just with better pyschics and they reroll both marines and daemons and can have a relic... Is it a different model? Could I just run the 5 I have as chaos marines princes instead of normal princes? (I currently run tzeentch soup w/ a lot of princes)
Arachnofiend wrote: The CSM princes don't get the daemon defensive abilities (ie ephemeral form).
AHAH! Thank you, knew I was missing something. Guess it wouldn't matter for me anyway since weaver is an autocast for Magnus.
They also have a severe downside in theit statline.
At the moment, a CSMDP has 8 wounds and a Daemon DP has 10. On paper this means better survivability. In practice, this makes it open season.
At 9 or less wounds, a Character can hide behind a screen of virtually any other unit. But since the Daemon DP is at 10, it just falls into the mark where the opponent can gleefully shred it without care.
I see Brimstone Horrors all tower the place as cheap T3 4++ screening units. Is anyone actually using Pink Horrors? Split is useless to me, as I’ve yet to play a Points game, and I’m not spending 5 reinforcement power on two blueys. But even in points games, it looks awful. For every 80pts of pinkies, you need to set aside 130 Reinforcement Points for blueys and brimmies. So, as long as your opponent just ignores the pinkies, you’re playing with a 130pts handicap. If you say h*ck it and use the points to summon some Bloodcrushers or a Chariot, your opponent knows your pinkies aren’t going to double up and can just gun them down. If Summoning were not a weak gimmick, then it might be more useful, but this is just sad.
lindsay40k wrote: I see Brimstone Horrors all tower the place as cheap T3 4++ screening units. Is anyone actually using Pink Horrors? Split is useless to me, as I’ve yet to play a Points game, and I’m not spending 5 reinforcement power on two blueys. But even in points games, it looks awful. For every 80pts of pinkies, you need to set aside 130 Reinforcement Points for blueys and brimmies. So, as long as your opponent just ignores the pinkies, you’re playing with a 130pts handicap. If you say h*ck it and use the points to summon some Bloodcrushers or a Chariot, your opponent knows your pinkies aren’t going to double up and can just gun them down. If Summoning were not a weak gimmick, then it might be more useful, but this is just sad.
Brimstones are the only horrors. Pinks are "good" if you want some cheap assault fire, in practice they are nigh useless. Blues do the same thing as brimstones except they cost 2 (3 before the faq) more points and have 1 less attack... what the feth was GW smoking?
In a powerscore game pinks are fine since you don't pay for the splits, in a POINTS game, I just bring 30 brimstones to protect my core, and squads of nurglings for holding points.
Well, even though I find poxwolkers+brimstones to be a better combo overall, still I have seen a sucessful list with pink horrors on the tournaments with the restricted number of same units.
In regular daemonic lists you won't have options for shooting.
Different heralds and DPs hid in the swarm of pink horrors, and you either shoot at pinks which split or just do nothing for the first turns.
Stuxseth wrote: What do you think of Be'lakor?
Some people find him OP, but for me he seems a bit weird...
In a Daemon or mostly-Daemon list, he's basically slightly more versatile Daemon Prince, with Psychic Powers that are more awkward to use. Not all that overpowered here.
But it's when he's in an army with a heavier complement of Chaos Space Marines that he shines. There he can actually use his psychic powers, and grant rerolls of 1 to units that really benefit from it, like Obliterators, Warp Talons, and Daemon Engines. There's even more synergy with the Daemon Primarchs.
My instinct tells me Be'lakor is too expensive for what he does, but I love the model and I love his rules. He really can beef up a CSM list if he's allied in, and he can fit into a Supreme Command (with 2 Malefic Lords) relatively inexpensively. This might be a good option if you were going to run Mortarion or Magnus anyway in the LoW slot of a Supreme Command.
I mainly use Be'Lakor for Death Hex in daemonic lists.
With access to very rare AP-5 and Death Hex he is very good anti-elite hunter with extra mortal wounds from his second cast.
On recent tournament he single handedly killed DP and two maulerfiends.
He’s a Daemon unit with full re-rolls on his 4++. Combined with ability to hid as a CHARACTER, that’s nearly Greater Daemon endurance.
He’s got a 6” reroll 1’s to hit bubble for all DAEMON units. That’s distinctive.
He’s got six S7 AP5 D3 attack’s that hit on a 2+. That’s Bloodthirster-level output, with no deterioration.
He might only have access to buff spells that affect HA, but he also has access to a debuff spell that takes down invulnerable saves and two damage spells that pick their target.
Stuxseth wrote: What do you think of Be'lakor?
Some people find him OP, but for me he seems a bit weird...
I can't imagine a world where this sentiment is correct.
He's a Daemon unit who can't cast any of his spells on Daemons. That's about all you need to know. Pack it up, move on to the next model.
He is an auto-include for me in a pure Daemons list. I have played him since the beginning of 8th as my warlord.
Access to Death Hex alone gives him value as a psyker as well as an additional Smite. Taking away Magnus' (not easy, but still a chance), Mortarion's, or the enemy warlord invul save is pure gold. He can also still cast Infernal Gaze and Gift of Chaos too.
His reroll for saves makes him more durable than it seems. I have had him rapid fired by 20 man CSM and Necron Warriors units and live. When I first was using him I gave him the warlord trait of 6+ feel no pain. Now I give him the extra attack when charging.
His penalty to leadership has come in handy as well as he will almost always kill 5-7 things in an assault . Not so handy vs. conscript spam, but fantastic vs. MEQ and 2+ saves.
Is he OMGWTFBBQ? Nope. But he makes his points back for me every game. Especially if there is decent LOS blocking terrain on the table and he doesn't have to rely on a Flamers of Tzeentch screen to slow him down.
I didn't say he was terrible, he just isn't worth what he costs. Take a Daemon Prince for 180 and end up with a similar result for less points.
Also, I unfortunately also cannot relate to using Flamers to screen, as Flamers themselves also aren't too great, so unless you mean Exalteds I have no real comment beyond that.
Again, you're welcome to use the model to your heart's content, but he isn't a very great choice. Awful? No, that's Lords of Change, Karios, Screamers, etc. Great? Also no.
lindsay40k wrote: He’s a Daemon unit with full re-rolls on his 4++. Combined with ability to hid as a CHARACTER, that’s nearly Greater Daemon endurance.
He’s got a 6” reroll 1’s to hit bubble for all DAEMON units. That’s distinctive.
He’s got six S7 AP5 D3 attack’s that hit on a 2+. That’s Bloodthirster-level output, with no deterioration.
He might only have access to buff spells that affect HA, but he also has access to a debuff spell that takes down invulnerable saves and two damage spells that pick their target.
That’s not terrible at all.
And then you see how expensive he is and realise he's terrible.
I love how people list stats and special rules but completelly forget the cost.
rvd1ofakind wrote: And then you see how expensive he is and realise he's terrible.
I love how people list of stats and special rules but completelly forget the cost.
It's 240 points compared to 180 points, correct?
I kind of agree with that you are saying. The Shadow Form reroll is actually a pretty good benefit, but the better save on the DP means he's going to have to roll fewer times in the first place. The fact Be'Lakor can take 2 psychic powers is great, it means you could do Death Hex and WarpTime. But maybe one of those is enough.
What makes me think Be'Lakor is better for some armies is the fact his reroll aura applies to all units, not just a single Mark. Rerolls are important this edition and I would pay more for that ability.
Just not 60 points more, that's a lot of Brimstones.
And not with fewer wounds. Not that the wound make all the difference in the world, but I could see using Be'Lakor more against Heavy Infantry, who would be more likely to have weapons that cause multiple wounds.
Stuxseth wrote: What do you think of Be'lakor?
Some people find him OP, but for me he seems a bit weird...
I can't imagine a world where this sentiment is correct.
He's a Daemon unit who can't cast any of his spells on Daemons. That's about all you need to know. Pack it up, move on to the next model.
He is an auto-include for me in a pure Daemons list. I have played him since the beginning of 8th as my warlord.
Access to Death Hex alone gives him value as a psyker as well as an additional Smite. Taking away Magnus' (not easy, but still a chance), Mortarion's, or the enemy warlord invul save is pure gold. He can also still cast Infernal Gaze and Gift of Chaos too.
His reroll for saves makes him more durable than it seems. I have had him rapid fired by 20 man CSM and Necron Warriors units and live. When I first was using him I gave him the warlord trait of 6+ feel no pain. Now I give him the extra attack when charging.
His penalty to leadership has come in handy as well as he will almost always kill 5-7 things in an assault . Not so handy vs. conscript spam, but fantastic vs. MEQ and 2+ saves.
Is he OMGWTFBBQ? Nope. But he makes his points back for me every game. Especially if there is decent LOS blocking terrain on the table and he doesn't have to rely on a Flamers of Tzeentch screen to slow him down.
I get what you are saying about his value, and I certainly thought he was good (without testing him). Oddly enough it's actually your arguement FOR how good he is that makes me believe the opposite, and that he really only has a niche role. You're taking 240 points for essentially a daemon prince, and then screening it with expensive flamers. I've been on the fence about flamers, my problem with them being that I can't reliably get them into range without them eating fire. I can't imagine WANTING to screen with an expensive unit like flamers honestly. You're spending 300-500 points on something I'm getting done for around 200 with regular daemon princes and some brimstones or nurglings.
Cephalobeard wrote: I didn't say he was terrible, he just isn't worth what he costs. Take a Daemon Prince for 180 and end up with a similar result for less points.
Also, I unfortunately also cannot relate to using Flamers to screen, as Flamers themselves also aren't too great, so unless you mean Exalteds I have no real comment beyond that.
Again, you're welcome to use the model to your heart's content, but he isn't a very great choice. Awful? No, that's Lords of Change, Karios, Screamers, etc. Great? Also no.
This is why I'm sharing my experiences as most people are caught up in Brimstone spam as it is tournament proven.
I take Belakor with 3 regular daemon princes of Tzeentch in a supreme command detachment. He does significantly more damage than a normal prince in addition to his other abilities. I think his points are balanced.
Belakor goes in a vanguard detachment with three units of 6 Flamers of Tzeentch, 3 Exalted Flamers, and the Changeling. From experience I can tell you 18d6 auto hitting pistols(up to 108 shots) on models with a 12" fly keyword wrecks infantry and light vehicles/flyers. They have a small footprint and can easily get to where they need to be. The 4++, 2 wounds each and Changeling support means they stick around longer than expected and remain a threat. The flamers of tzeentch cannot be ignored.
The princes and Belakor are cleanup and smite spam for tougher targets. Brimstones to fill points, hold objectives, act as additional character screens, and throw the occasional smite.
You're right to point out that this is anecdotal evidence, but IMO they are the best units in a pure daemons list (along with brimstones). I've had a lot of success with "Belakor & Friends" in my meta maybe it will work for somebody else too in their meta.
I also agree that Kairos, LoC & Screamers are poor choices.
As an alternative screen to flamers could seekers work? While they aren't particularly durable they can get into combat quickly with their 16" + 3d6" threat radius. Also means they wouldn't be slowing down Be'lakor by 2".
Local store has decided to test out a "no forgeworld" policy for a little while. While my Alpha Legion Kharybdis I recently bought and painted weeps, I'm more than happy to bust out this monstrosity and take it for a spin.
Double Battalion, Supreme Command. Pure Tzeentch Daemons.
Cephalobeard wrote: Local store has decided to test out a "no forgeworld" policy for a little while. While my Alpha Legion Kharybdis I recently bought and painted weeps, I'm more than happy to bust out this monstrosity and take it for a spin.
Double Battalion, Supreme Command. Pure Tzeentch Daemons.
I like this setup. Out of curiosity, if forgeworld rules were allowed would you be running malefic lords instead? I've had trouble finding room for heralds in my army when those things are only 30pts and I've got 5 painted up.
I very much doubt they'll go above 45. Spiritseers are now 45 and have a far better power set than maelific lords as well as having a buff. It would be hard to see a maelific lord costing over a spiritseer. I think 40 is the most likely number.
Cephalobeard wrote: Local store has decided to test out a "no forgeworld" policy for a little while. While my Alpha Legion Kharybdis I recently bought and painted weeps, I'm more than happy to bust out this monstrosity and take it for a spin.
Double Battalion, Supreme Command. Pure Tzeentch Daemons.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well ofc he would. Malefic lords will probably be costed 60+ after the pts change. At 30, they're a steal
Any idea when point increase happening? Cause as far as I know they JUST released an FAQ/errata on the fw they are in 1-2 weeks ago and weren't touched at all.
Also if they get increased it'll be to 40 tops or you'll never see them in lists again.
No, he has no idea. As it stands it'll either happen at ITCs hands (which they should never have the power to do) or when Chapter approved is released (likely), OR, by some crazy happening Forgeworld updates their models which very rarely happens.
gwarsh41 wrote: Even at 40pt they are a steal. If they perils they basically become daemon princes.
It's gonna be a 6" move model that you were already keeping probably 12-18'' away, with 1-2 toughness 4 wounds left. I've played 5 of them in a supremecommand detachment in about 10 games or so and haven't had one hulk out and hit something yet, that is a fun flavor gimmick at best.
Cephalobeard wrote: I have mine Hulk out 1-2 times a game when I bring 5+, however they've never actually been in combat. It's a pointless ability that feels fluffy.
Yeah I mean, even if it was a good ability it would be useless because the odds of perils are 1/18 (right?). That isn't something you can exactly build a strategy around.
I think the fact that Tzeentch Heralds are in the realm of "pretty good" despite also doing basically nothing other than Smite (their spell list is even worse than the R&H one and the +1 S buff is useless to anything Tzeentch wants to run) is really telling of how undercosted malefic lords are.
Isn’t Herald buff at least useful on a Daemon Prince? Taking him up a Strength band can make a difference when trying to cut open a tank. It’s not bad on a soup list with Possessed, either; Boon may well be worth a shot for the chance to give them +1A, especially if Smite’s not got a worthy target.
I was about to say "the daemon prince is already at S9 with Diabolic Strength" but then I remembered which thread I'm in. Okay, so that's one chaos daemons model that benefits from the HoT aura. You're still paying 83 points with the Staff of Change for what is essentially a smite bot in most circumstances, and that 83 points was pretty good until we collectively realized the malefic lord does the same thing for 30.
From whispers I'm hearing we're likely going to see a cap to the number of Smites that can even be cast after chapter approved, so, who knows where Daemons are going to end up power wise after the next few months. Especially Tzeentch, as they almost quite literally have nothing else.
That'd be seriously killer to psychic armies and make my Aspiring Sorcerers complete dead weight rather than "mostly" dead weight like they are now. They'd have to do something else to compensate for us running out of spells to cast.
Cephalobeard wrote: From whispers I'm hearing we're likely going to see a cap to the number of Smites that can even be cast after chapter approved, so, who knows where Daemons are going to end up power wise after the next few months. Especially Tzeentch, as they almost quite literally have nothing else.
I would be infuriated, the psyker phase is literally my favorite part of the game (I looved 7th Ed. Warp charges). Smite is literally the only thing you can do in a psyker heavy army, I understand for some armies paykers are excellent support characters, but not every army is supposed to be the same. If I can't have a psyker army I'mma just put my gak up on eBay and switch hobbies.
Cephalobeard wrote: From whispers I'm hearing we're likely going to see a cap to the number of Smites that can even be cast after chapter approved, so, who knows where Daemons are going to end up power wise after the next few months. Especially Tzeentch, as they almost quite literally have nothing else.
If they truly have a problem on smite this is the way they would tackle it, not trying to nerf psyker units one at a time. I expect heralds to get a significant increase in utility when our codex drops. Otherwise they are overcosted..... That being said I personally run one on a burning chariot or disk behind 5 tzeentch daemon princes, it does a good job of making them rend tanks like no ones business.
I honestly feel like smite was given to psykers as a bandaid for the lack of codexes and small spell lists. They probably didn't even plan on working it like they did until they realized how spam interactions with certain spells worked and had to limit us to 1 each after.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about daemon princes? barring their buff aura, which do you like the most? The tzeentch benefit seems the best but the only psychic is smite as all 3 of tzeentch spells are trash.
Nurgle has 3 good spells, slaneesh has 2, khorne could be nice on charge.
I'm running a tzeentch daemon list w/ lots of princes (five) and wondering if i should run all of them as tzeentch or not.
Side note, with disgustingly resilient and similar abilities, if I take a 6 damage shot and fail save (say, a lascannon) do I roll 6 dice?
With regard to Daemon Princes, I have a Word Bearers - Daemons hybrid army, and my CSM winged Nurgle DP is doing nicely with the ability of a Herald to heal D3 wounds on him making him a decent Overwatch tank, I have not felt compelled to build another to get the synergies offered by other dieties. Hysterical Frenzy is great when it works, but it’s unreliability makes it more of a scarecrow spell than something you can build anything but a desperate strategy around, and I’ll usually take the safer output of Smite (which a Steed Herald is excellent at pricision aiming - I’ve won a game from this getting a Warlord kill) over that roulette wheel.
I do, however, plan to get a load of Tzeentch Possessed, and their synergy with a Disc or Chariot Herald and Changling will be nicely accompanied by a DP. Might just make them twenty-strong footsloggers.
I’ve heard whispers from playtesters that they’ll wind up being 50 points each once chapter approved drops. Malefic lords, that is. Which I think is appropriate. Still good to fill out FOC slots, but not so good that you want to take 15 of them. Because that is just a feelsbadman list
Zid wrote: Ya'll think, especially after the AM nerfs, that Smite may get it as well? I think its kind of dumb, honestly, that they gave every psyker smite.
Smite might get a nerf, allthough smite is mainly a problem because of inexpensive psykers like the primaris psyker or malefic lords. That a hive tyrant, demonic prince or farseer can cast smite is not really a balance problem. Neither is the mini-smite that warlocks have.
Zid wrote: Ya'll think, especially after the AM nerfs, that Smite may get it as well? I think its kind of dumb, honestly, that they gave every psyker smite.
Smite might get a nerf, allthough smite is mainly a problem because of inexpensive psykers like the primaris psyker or malefic lords. That a hive tyrant, demonic prince or farseer can cast smite is not really a balance problem. Neither is the mini-smite that warlocks have.
Given recent FAQts I would assume they will nerf smite on per-squad basis like they did with Horrors. In general it is a quite good and balanced spell.
Stuxseth wrote: How can daemons deal with flyers ?
eldars craftworld hemlocks seems devastating to me...
If you need to deal with Flyers, you got the following solutions.
Plague Drones for Nurgle.
Bloodthristers and Skull cannons for Khorne.
Smite and Screechers for Tzeech
And Slaanesh?...Furies and Daemon Princes can be taken with them I guess? (And with all other of the 4 factions at that)
Uff. Those don't work at all:
Plague Drones have no AP Bloodthirsters and Skull Cannons are one of the worst units in the game. Especially only shooting skull cannons. For their damage they should cost 10 pts. They cost 100.
Screamers and Furies are terribly overpriced.
I haven't had trouble with flyers and I use daemon princes/smite as my main source of output. I've also had some decent amount of success with burning chariots, the low BS kind of stinks but the movement helps you keep up with flyers and land those last few wounds you need to get em off the table.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Uff. Those don't work at all:
Plague Drones have no AP Bloodthirsters and Skull Cannons are one of the worst units in the game. Especially only shooting skull cannons. For their damage they should cost 10 pts. They cost 100.
Screamers and Furies are terribly overpriced.
I see this opinion about bloodthirsters banded about often, but what would it take to make it more usable/accepted?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Uff. Those don't work at all:
Plague Drones have no AP Bloodthirsters and Skull Cannons are one of the worst units in the game. Especially only shooting skull cannons. For their damage they should cost 10 pts. They cost 100.
Screamers and Furies are terribly overpriced.
I see this opinion about bloodthirsters banded about often, but what would it take to make it more usable/accepted?
For starters, all of the Greater Daemons should be feasible to summon. Their capabilities and resulting points values should work backwards from that conclusion. Four Chaos Lords of each God should have the same chances of a successful summon, and there should be more ways to make it reliable than Be A Word Bearer.
BT definitely feels like it’s overcosted, mine has only managed to become Swarmlord food.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Uff. Those don't work at all:
Plague Drones have no AP Bloodthirsters and Skull Cannons are one of the worst units in the game. Especially only shooting skull cannons. For their damage they should cost 10 pts. They cost 100.
Screamers and Furies are terribly overpriced.
I see this opinion about bloodthirsters banded about often, but what would it take to make it more usable/accepted?
Increase movement, 2+ armour save and/or way more wounds.
Otherwise, thirsters are over priced and rarely is able to get into hth.
Ehh, Greater Daemons should be pretty expensive, I think this is one of those instances where it's better to buff the datasheet than to just bring the points down.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Uff. Those don't work at all:
Plague Drones have no AP Bloodthirsters and Skull Cannons are one of the worst units in the game. Especially only shooting skull cannons. For their damage they should cost 10 pts. They cost 100.
Screamers and Furies are terribly overpriced.
I see this opinion about bloodthirsters banded about often, but what would it take to make it more usable/accepted?
They need to deepstrike, like dreadknight (who are cheaper, and with better shooting capabilities).
rvd1ofakind wrote: Uff. Those don't work at all:
Plague Drones have no AP Bloodthirsters and Skull Cannons are one of the worst units in the game. Especially only shooting skull cannons. For their damage they should cost 10 pts. They cost 100.
Screamers and Furies are terribly overpriced.
I see this opinion about bloodthirsters banded about often, but what would it take to make it more usable/accepted?
They need to deepstrike, like dreadknight (who are cheaper, and with better shooting capabilities).
This kind of describes Daemons in general - needs deepstrike. It can be a struggle getting troops up the field and still have them be effective.
Because right now you need to kill stuff turn one as per ITC missions. So you can't play an army that does nothing until turn 2 or 3 (pure melee). And the only actual Daemons that can do stuff turn 1 are: seekers. That's it?
Daemons just need the codex to get more army wide rules and stratagems. They have always been a cog in the system with how they play and their rules in general. I think GW will release them last for balance reasons, because daemons are either going to be OP, or crap.
Losing army wide deep strike is a decent slap in the face, and makes a lot of units pretty bland. PB gained resiliency, but it doesn't matter if they can't get where they need to go!
We definitely need a codex. Given popularity I guess we would get ours last? however we are in serious need of one. About 2/3 of our units are not worth taking in any kind of competitive list, 1/2 if you wanna play it conservative.
The issue is compounded by the fact that we are in many instances encouraged to take mono-daemon lists.... It boils down to armies that can only be built out of a handful of units.
Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince with Wings: Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic talon
. . Slaanesh: Delightful Agonies
+ Troops +
Horrors: Blue Horror, 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
+ Heavy Support +
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators: Mark of Tzeentch, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators: Mark of Tzeentch, 3x Obliterator
++ Supreme Command Detachment2 (Chaos - Thousand Sons) ++
+ Lord of War +
Magnus the Red: Death Hex, Warptime, Weaver of Fates
I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.
(although I did apologize to my opponent afterwards)
The list I will be playing this weekend is now between these two, only differences are 10pink/5brimstone squads & 2 demon princes vs 9brimstone/1blue squads and 3 demon princes. Wasn't sure if I needed more screen but I made the squads pink if I did not only due to owned model limitations but also because I figured if I needed more points into screen (to make best use of changeling) they should at least be shooty.
However, I'm talking about the top Chaos player AFTER the DQ.
