Dr.Marmalade wrote: I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.
It's literally wasted points.
You can pay: 80pts for 10 Pinks, 100pts for 20 Blues, and 60pts for 20 Brimstones (240pts) for 50 Bodies, or you can pay 150pts 50 Brimstones and be guaranteed to have 50 bodies, because they won't refuse to split if they lose morale.
Split is bad because of how expensive it is. It is always more efficient to simply run the maximum amount of the weakest version.
Dr.Marmalade wrote: I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.
I can see it working with total saturation and points values, however I play Power Levels and only have twenty pinkies - and the only way to make blues and brims fit into Matched Play rules is to pay five Reinforcement power to bring in one or two of them :/
Can’t even try brimstone swarms, since they’re priced as pinkies
Dr.Marmalade wrote: I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.
I'm gonna need something more than anecdotal evidence from one guy that goes against every bit of logic, math, and public opinion out there. For the single cost of a squad of 10 pinks with split (so 30 wounds) I can get 53 wounds and have the ability to separate them around 5 squads with brimstones.
Pink horrors have shots, yes, you can make that arguement, but the shots are bad and need a buff to be useful. Blue horrors have literally nothing going for them, brimstones are even better in melee given that the extra attack is better since you probly need a 6 to wound anyway.
I use blue horror splitting in my army over 6 units of 5 blue/ 5 brimstones, I consider it a 60 point tax for not owning another 30 Brimstones which would cost like 60-100 dollars...
Right now I use pink horrors along with flamers for the same reason: To eat the points left when I take out magnus/heralds because i'm not playing competitive.
Trancefate wrote: We definitely need a codex. Given popularity I guess we would get ours last? however we are in serious need of one. About 2/3 of our units are not worth taking in any kind of competitive list, 1/2 if you wanna play it conservative.
The issue is compounded by the fact that we are in many instances encouraged to take mono-daemon lists.... It boils down to armies that can only be built out of a handful of units.
Looks like we're getting our codex in time for Christmas
Trancefate wrote: We definitely need a codex. Given popularity I guess we would get ours last? however we are in serious need of one. About 2/3 of our units are not worth taking in any kind of competitive list, 1/2 if you wanna play it conservative.
The issue is compounded by the fact that we are in many instances encouraged to take mono-daemon lists.... It boils down to armies that can only be built out of a handful of units.
Looks like we're getting our codex in time for Christmas
I think the biggest problem with Tzeentch is that we pay for psykers that can cast 2+ powers, but due to the limitations in matched play can't use all of their power outside of very small points. Bolt of change is OK as a power, but needs a WCV drop IMO (basically a smite that can target characters)
Boon is kinda terrible and is unreliable. I would like to see it do all 3 for the unit.
For treason I would like to see some leadership debuffs in the daemons army to give it some better utility. I think all we have is Be'Lakor. As it stands we have a ~41% chance to cast the power, by a (assuming ld10) 8% to roll over the enemies leadership making it a less than 3.5% chance of successfully going off. The enemy being in range of Be'Lakor makes that a ~7% chance. Re-rolls make it slightly better with a 14.6% chance, but still not enough to count on getting it off once a game.
The last thing I want at all is for Tzeentch to involve morale. Give that to Slaanesh. Tzeentch needs the ability to cast spells, or have a unique "cantrip" spell each unit can use equal to their spells. Flickering Fire so to speak. Lose 3 casts and do 3x effective or something.
They're literally magic given physical form, if they get less spells than Eldar it's a huge kick in the giblets.
Make things interact with rolls, cause some chaos, make Herald's give a useful buff, make screamers actually either a powerful melee unit, or give it some kind of unique aura/ability. Let Exalted Flamers/Flamers be used as conduits for attacks like in Sigmar.
Don't just gut what they are. They're wizards. Let the only actual wizard army be goddamn wizards.
Dr.Marmalade wrote: I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.
8+5+3 = 16pts(cost of a pink splitting down to a brim) for 3 wounds
16pts = 5 brimstones giving you 5 wounds
More wounds + bigger footprint for objectives and screening is why I always takes brim sqauds with one blue.
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Cephalobeard wrote: The last thing I want at all is for Tzeentch to involve morale. Give that to Slaanesh. Tzeentch needs the ability to cast spells, or have a unique "cantrip" spell each unit can use equal to their spells. Flickering Fire so to speak. Lose 3 casts and do 3x effective or something.
They're literally magic given physical form, if they get less spells than Eldar it's a huge kick in the giblets.
Make things interact with rolls, cause some chaos, make Herald's give a useful buff, make screamers actually either a powerful melee unit, or give it some kind of unique aura/ability. Let Exalted Flamers/Flamers be used as conduits for attacks like in Sigmar.
Don't just gut what they are. They're wizards. Let the only actual wizard army be goddamn wizards.
Right? Its literally a psyker army, if they don't give us some form of psyker dominance I'mma be mad
I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.
vaklor4 wrote: I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.
They are one of the worst units in the game. Stop spreading missinformation.
This is a tactics thread. Not a single major tournament list that does even OK has a bloodthirster. The entire SoCal had no khorne units period.
vaklor4 wrote: I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.
They are one of the worst units in the game. Stop spreading missinformation.
This is a tactics thread. Not a single major tournament list that does even OK has a bloodthirster. The entire SoCal had no khorne units period.
Tactics don't just apply to major tournaments, you salty cheese monger Play what you wanna play, enjoy what you wanna play.
Out of the games i've brought Khorne Daemons to my local area, they've never not pulled weight.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s
I'm happy to point out when RVD is being salty, this isn't one of those moments. He's being realistic. If the argument is, "I play casually and--" then it isn't an argument. The value of any model, from a casual perspective, is not based on tactic but purely upon ones personal opinion of them.
Which is totally fine.
However, as it stands, Greater Daemons are some of the worst models probably in the game right now.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s
I'm happy to point out when RVD is being salty, this isn't one of those moments. He's being realistic. If the argument is, "I play casually and--" then it isn't an argument. The value of any model, from a casual perspective, is not based on tactic but purely upon ones personal opinion of them.
Which is totally fine.
However, as it stands, Greater Daemons are some of the worst models probably in the game right now.
Isnt Lord ot Change used in Tzeetch Daemon lists? I understand the point youre making, but im fairly certain LoC is an exception to the other 3.
vaklor4 wrote: Isnt Lord ot Change used in Tzeetch Daemon lists? I understand the point youre making, but im fairly certain LoC is an exception to the other 3.
There's no reason to take a LoC or Fateweaver when Magnus exists. Even stock in Magnus is going down with each new codex release. Heck, even Kronos Tyranids can shut out daemon monstrous creatures with just a single strategem (their artifact helps too).
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm sure someone, somewhere has used them. Competitively? Absolutely not.
Early on in 8th I saw LoC used in Daemon lists, but I havent had the time to look into the newer stuff post-AM codex
Well, I'm in the top 10-15 or so of Ranked Daemon players in North America, and I can assure you they're not being used by anyone that I've ever heard of.
They have pretty models and ensure games are streamlined, very much in keeping with the spirit of 8th edition. I bring a Supreme Allied Command with five of them to ensure games end in less than an hour.
End sarcasm mode.
The 8th edition Daemons Codex is rumored to be the first one being released in 2018. Hoping this leads to new playstyles, too many Magnus + a ton of Horrors lists right now.
What would you do specifically to improve Greater Daemons in the new Codex?
The conversations I've had always center around Deep Strike, which I think would actually not do much. Coming in 9 inches away from an opponent is great, but a smart opponent is going to position their forces so that all you are charging is the chaff. The fact they have so many wounds means they are always going to be targets, so it's not like you can move them up the board like other ICs.
I hate to say this, but I think 8th edition mechanics make it impossible to be successful with Greater Daemons. There might not be a way for a Codex to solve all the problems we see with them. Maybe if they had twice the movement, maybe if they had Deep Strike, maybe if they could automatically ignore AP modifiers... but it's too much to even consider with where they are now.
Not rumored; confirmed by GW. First Codex of 2018.
I don't even think there's anything wrong with Magnus and tons of horrors, it's just the ONLY viable all daemon option available; the priority should be improving everything else to compete with that.
How to improve the Greater Daemons? Either drop them to, realistically, only be slightly more than Daemon Princes (See 220ish), or buff them to be twice what they are now.
14-16W, T7, and only 4-7 Attacks with 2 Psychic powers (that are awful) at not worth 360pts. I could just take 5 Exalted Flamers and have an infinitely more survivable and powerful choice for less points.
Deep strike should be given to Greater Lords, at least the winged ones. If a Hive Tyrant can deep strike in, so can my giant bird.
They need to be more specialized. Slaanesh needs to be very, very fast and potentially impact morale. Khorne needs to hit very hard. Nurgle needs to be very, very resilient and for the love of Tzeentch my Lords of Change need to be able to cast good, powerful spells.
Tactics don't just apply to major tournaments, you salty cheese monger Play what you wanna play, enjoy what you wanna play.
This comment is beyond silly.
Dictionary definition of tactics: "an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end."
I think it was kind of implied that WINNING was that specific end.
If you wanna take units cause they make you all warm and fuzzy and emotional inside that's cool, you do you. This is a tactics thread, spreading straight up WRONG information does nothing but hurt the army. Enough people like you say something like "Lolol Bloodthirsterz is gud GW me likey!!" and now they don't get changed for codex and the players who build their armies to be competitive will have shelved units for the next god knows how many years.
Do you guys think summoning could be fixed by just removing the "if you moved you can't summon" part of the rules? Basically giving deamons deep strike but you need a charecter to pull it off like a homing Beacon? Maybe even add "pass a leadership test on the charecter who is your Beacon, if failed can't be used as a Beacon for remanded of turn"?
Otherwise I just don't see deamons as anything but either a fluff army or as part of a chaos army as back in the day.
Though in a chaos army nurgle with fleshy abundance is amazing on helldrakes / forgefiends / maulerfiends.
I don't think it would help very much. There's just very little benefit to ever not include the models in your army, instead of summoning them. Very rarely worth it.
Azuza001 wrote: Do you guys think summoning could be fixed by just removing the "if you moved you can't summon" part of the rules? Basically giving deamons deep strike but you need a charecter to pull it off like a homing Beacon? Maybe even add "pass a leadership test on the charecter who is your Beacon, if failed can't be used as a Beacon for remanded of turn"?
Otherwise I just don't see deamons as anything but either a fluff army or as part of a chaos army as back in the day.
Though in a chaos army nurgle with fleshy abundance is amazing on helldrakes / forgefiends / maulerfiends.
The problem seems to be a little more complex than restrictions around moving. Sure, I would be happy having a character stand still if I knew the summoning would work, 100% of the time.
Saying this because deep strike is now automatic. Summoning is inferior by comparison because a) it's dependent on a summoning roll and b) most of what you can summon (i.e. bloodletters) are not terribly good.
To fix it, I would simply remove the summoning roll and allow any Daemon to be summoned. Maybe you still need a character to differentiate it from deep strike, but this would bring the summoning rolls on par with similar mechanics in the game.
Alternately, I would replace summoning with Deep Strike. Easy, streamlined, in the spirit of 8th edition.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s
I'm happy to point out when RVD is being salty, this isn't one of those moments. He's being realistic. If the argument is, "I play casually and--" then it isn't an argument. The value of any model, from a casual perspective, is not based on tactic but purely upon ones personal opinion of them.
Which is totally fine.
However, as it stands, Greater Daemons are some of the worst models probably in the game right now.
Isnt Lord ot Change used in Tzeetch Daemon lists? I understand the point youre making, but im fairly certain LoC is an exception to the other 3.
Not LoC, people bring aetaos'rau'keres (the super LoC from fw) alongside malefic Lord spam.
As much as I loved my thirster model people are Right, greater demons are trash. Look no further than gulliman for proof, he costs roughly the same and defines lists by himself. Yes he's op so maybe not the best comparison but they don't even hold a candle. It's kind of a joke how bad most demons are(exceptions to every rule).
As for khorne in general, bloodletters are the only thing I've used to some success and that wasnt even in my list, just an option to summon v melee alpha strikes as a kick back. 7 pt bodies with power swords is pretty good, they just lack delivery systems.
I think the Astra Militarum and Eldar codexes were already a blow to the nose of Chaos / Daemon lists, but the new Tyranid codex will bring the gut punch. I foresee a ton of Kraken / Kronus armies making life miserable for my Magnarion list, and really anything Daemons I tried to run. We really need the new Daemon codex to do for points and psychic buffs what the Eldar codex did, and for ranged shooting and stratagems and chapter tactics and mobility what the Tyranid codex did.
Arachnofiend wrote: They should give the Lord of Change/Kairos Magnus's super-smite.
I'd like to see LOC get a beefcaked version of Boon of Change, like maybe depending on roll it could double the stat given, and you could select 1 or get all 3 if you roll a certain #. Maybe then you would see it used.
You wouldn't see it used because almost no Tzeentch units worth damn attack, because all Tzeentch units either cast spells or have ranged attack, where +1 STR and A mean nothing.
Lords of Change and Magnus should ABSOLUTELY have the super smite, like Magnus. Kairos at the very least deserves Primarch level power, for his cost. His lore is Incredible and his model deserves better.
Tzeentch Heralds should buff either casting results or cast range instead of STR.
Screamers should have an ability like in AoS where they invert saves, or something.
If the Lord of Change or other Tzeentch units get anything like what they have in AoS, that would go a long way in making them relevant.
Eg:
- Casting done where the lower roll becomes equal to that of the higher roll.
- infernal Gateway Spell and others comparable in the Disciples book.
- Tzaangor Skyfires as nifty Assassination units.
techsoldaten wrote: The problem seems to be a little more complex than restrictions around moving. Sure, I would be happy having a character stand still if I knew the summoning would work, 100% of the time.
[...]
I think the best summoning rules I ever saw were those from that wonderful codex that everyone who didn't play Chaos hated in 3rd edition...
For those who are not familiar, daemon summoning was done via the standard reserves rule (4+ Turn 2, 3+ Turn 3, 2+ Turn 4+). Once the unit was available, one placed the large blast down touching a chaos icon of the same god (or an undivided icon) and rolled the scatter dice plus 2D6. The daemons could then move, shoot and charge normally. This made them wonderfully viable. I'm not an ultra competitive player, but I used to enjoy my Death Guard army (yes, I played them before it was "cool" ) with my multiple daemon units. Plauge marines would wander up the table shooting away at whatever took their fancy, and then when the time was right, plaguebearers would spring into life and charge to tie up annoying units.
Something I DON'T think would work in 8th edition is the old Greater Daemon summoning - this required the Greater Daemon to take possession of an Aspiring Champion to come into being. This could remain a secret to the opponent, but I modelled up my terminator aspiring champion as a daemonvessel especially. This enabled my terminators to deep strike in, mess up some stuff in the nearby vicinity and then the Great Unclean One would burst into life and mess stuff up in the opponents backfield.
Definitely limiting a characters ability to participate in the game ruins summoning for me - at least if the unit can deep strike (even if it is "within X inches" of an icon and/or character), then it can tend to turn up where it wants without mucking with the other units in the army.
Azuza001 wrote: Do you guys think summoning could be fixed by just removing the "if you moved you can't summon" part of the rules? Basically giving deamons deep strike but you need a charecter to pull it off like a homing Beacon? Maybe even add "pass a leadership test on the charecter who is your Beacon, if failed can't be used as a Beacon for remanded of turn"?
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a stratagem that allows a character that has moved to summon. It would make summoning a little more palatable. T1 - Winged Daemon Prince moves 12" + d6" forwards, then summons 30 lesser daemons up to 12" away. That gets you at least d6" into your enemies deployment zone.
Azuza001 wrote: Do you guys think summoning could be fixed by just removing the "if you moved you can't summon" part of the rules? Basically giving deamons deep strike but you need a charecter to pull it off like a homing Beacon? Maybe even add "pass a leadership test on the charecter who is your Beacon, if failed can't be used as a Beacon for remanded of turn"?
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a stratagem that allows a character that has moved to summon. It would make summoning a little more palatable. T1 - Winged Daemon Prince moves 12" + d6" forwards, then summons 30 lesser daemons up to 12" away. That gets you at least d6" into your enemies deployment zone.
Mmm. Question for me is, will mortal/daemon synergies be improved? My Word Bearers are supposed to be leet when it comes to this, and the fast character summoning rushdown was a decent ploy up to 8ed. Now, even if I get a summoner up close, I can’t bring anything down in flamer or easy charge range. Not holding my breath for a CD Stratagem patching that, hopefully summoning in general will be improved from the sub-par DS it is now.
In fact, DS? It’s more like a concealed deployment.
Oddly enough, in an edition of strictly segregated Tyranids, Genecult, and Brood Brothers, we *do* have some fantastic inter-army synergies. Boon of Tzeentch may be weak in a pure CD list, but Changeling, Boon Herald, and thirty Horrors are a fantastic accompaniment to a horde of Possessed.
Really crossing my fingers for an improvement to Horrors in Power Levels play, as things stand they’re pretty terrible.
Yeah, I can see all of that. Even if they change it to summoned deamons can come in outside 1" of an enemy that would make a difference.
Deamon prince charges in and gets swarmed by hormagaunts. It survives both rounds of combat to your turn, so then you can summon additional "help" in that can charge in for help. That would be cool.
Changeling
Daemon Prince
- Wings, 2x Claw (Tzeentch)
Herald of Tzeentch
6x 1 Blue 9 Brimstones
6x Exalted Flamer
Chaos Battalion
2x Malefic Lord
3x 1 Blue 9 Brimstones
4x Exalted Flamer
Total units: 90 Horrors, Changeling, Daemon Prince, Herald, 7 Malefic Lords, 10 Exalted Flamers, Magnus
-------------
Have a big RTT (20+ People) and a GT coming up, and this is what I'm working with. Current considerations were to potentially drop Magnus and add a couple blobs of nurglings, and another 1-2 Exalted Flamers, to give me a bit more screening potentially, but I'm pretty happy with the massive amount of firepower this list shoots out.
Are exalted flamers strong enough to be the backbone of your army like this? I use a pretty similar list w/ more princes & some nurglings (nurglings are great).
The short range and 4+ to hit if you move concerns me. How valid a concern is it is the question, I'm still pretty new at this. Will you have to move them outside of screen to land shots on important targets? I feel like a great way of dealing with malefic lord spam is positioning outside 18'' when possible. Granted only certain armies can do this, but any army that was prepared to handle lord spam this way will be equally prepared to deal with exalted spam. Maneuverable armies may be an issue?
Lords just move 6" and advance every turn, they have a deceptive threat range.
As far as Exalted Flamers go, yeah, they're incredibly. S5 AP-2 1d d6 Auto hit pistols or 18" S9 AP-4 D3 damage is pretty good, especially with a prince giving them rerolls.
I play very, very aggressively so I'm going to be directly in my opponents face asap.
I think the list will do well, though I think it highlights how Chaos is not as strong as people thing - a small handful of good units (Malefic Lords, Aetos, Brims, Slaanesh Oblits) are used as crutches to power up some otherwise underwhelming factions.
Personally, after a lot of success with my Mortation / Magnus / 3rd LoW list (either Zarakynel or Renegade Knight), I think I will experiment with bringing Scabby as my 3rd LoW. The new ITC missions are harder for my list to win than before, and a Knight sadly gives up Titanslayer too easily despite its advantages (mobility, can shoot without LoS, give another option vs flyers, can blow up heavy weapons past screens, etc.).
I think Scabby was kind of useless before, but with Tyranids getting so much stronger and the possibility of deep striking Eldar assault units, plus all the new +1 cover / - to hit army abilities, I think maybe the game will shift to more melee focus so that Scabby's -1 to hit in melee aura and slow movement are more useful. Hard to say but I want to try.
Can malefic lords summon Khorne deamons if they take covenant of Khorne? It would require a 25 point commander to dedicate the entire detachment to Khorne, but the 25 point commander would have nothing better to do than throw 3 dice at summoning.
My thought is cheap FW characters would solve the bloodletter delivery problem, and if 3 dice can be thrown from an expendable character I could even play around with an 8 PL summoning for a unit of crushers with a +1 to charge out of deep strike.
Right now the army is mostly CSM. Deamons I am thinking of including would be limited to a brigade of 3 by 10 bloodletters, maybe some solo fiends or a unit of crushers, the changing, and a Herald of Tzeentch. Possessed got really good when they got their free 2nd wound so +1 strength and -1 to be hit on top of alpha legion sounds nice.
Ah this is a common misconception, an unalligned character can summon any god no problems. The only restriction is if the character is marked then they can only summon that god, if they are not then it's free fame any god
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Anyone got any Nurgle Daemon specific tactics and lists? I've got a huge pile of Nurgle Daemons that I need to put to work.
I take it you’ve got Epidemius? He’s the key to a pure ND army building up momentum from a nasty cough to a pandemic.
Are you going pure Chaos Daemons? Obliterators, a Dinobot or two, and DPs who can Death Hex or Warptime (or Sorcerers on Palanquins) have outstanding synergy with Epi. Also Decimators. Maybe Heldrakes. DG can contribute with Plagueburst Crawlers as well, and if their tricycle drone thing ever gets released it’s a nice little hunter of damaged transports.
I guess ND in general though are about strategic application of tarpitting, and flying DPs going around getting the actual kills. Plague Drones seem moderately competent at grinding down light infantry. Soul grinders are pretty tough but they don’t seem to have the damage output to do all that much.
Once Epidemius is charged up to 4 and then 6, then your tarpit units will become pretty good at winning attrition, but getting him there without relying on CSM Daemonic units looks pretty difficult to achieve - and not all that difficult to thwart.
Even Furies are worse than usual, as finishing off a unit with their gimmick doesn’t count towards Epidemius. They’re not even all that useful to jump towards an objective in no man’s land, as you’ve already covered it in Nurglings. Are they even efficient as a mobile tarpit to troll units with high damage weapons, since the Plague Drone price drop?
Yeh it certainly looks like Epidemius is pretty much an auto include... in terms of everything else, I'm easy really. I'll probably focus on Daemons, but I'm definitely open to including other things if it improves the army.
In terms of what I've got, it's very Daemon focused: GUO, 2x DP, 70 x PBs, 9 x Nurglings, 6 x Plague Drones, and Scabeiathrax. That's just the painted Nurgle stuff, got a bunch more ready to be built. My only problem is deciding where to take it all!
I happen to have a single Nurgle Obliterators unit that was like my first CSM Squad, and a Nurgle Daemon Prince I got for a jetpack monster project.
Their power alone was enough for me to look at my Battalion of two Nurgling objective grabbers and a Plaguebearers screen, and decide that Epidemius should replace Karanak as the second Daemon HQ. Anticipation of a purity bonus for monolatrist Detachments is just a bonus.
I’m a very polytheist Word Bearers collector, and the idea that Nurgle Daemons are easier to infect a machine with is enough for me to rationalise siccing four stinky Dinobots on the unbelievers
Is there any reason to use a Lord of Change? It's a lot of points for very little firepower. Fateweaver especially seems like a waste. For 15 more points I could just bring Magnus.
Sorry if this has been discussed already. I'm just looking for good allies for my Thousand Sons, and I love the LoC model. He just seems worthless right now.
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: Is there any reason to use a Lord of Change? It's a lot of points for very little firepower. Fateweaver especially seems like a waste. For 15 more points I could just bring Magnus.
Sorry if this has been discussed already. I'm just looking for good allies for my Thousand Sons, and I love the LoC model. He just seems worthless right now.
Give it a couple of months and see what the Codex brings - GDs are in a weak spot right now and need work.
In the meantime, Horrors are a great unit, can’t go wrong with three squads of Brimstones with a Blue. (In fact, I’d expect them to be maybe toned down a bit, or at least reorganised.) Flamers of both type seem to be useable.
Heralds are a bit meh right now, a lot of people take Malefic Lords instead but that’s getting a cheesy reputation. But! If you have any Daemon Princes, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes, or Decimators, then a Herald on Disc or Chariot will give them +1S, and Boon will also become... well, *maybe* worth it. It’s no Diabolic Strength, best used on Possessed, which aren’t available to TS.
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: Is there any reason to use a Lord of Change? It's a lot of points for very little firepower. Fateweaver especially seems like a waste. For 15 more points I could just bring Magnus.
Sorry if this has been discussed already. I'm just looking for good allies for my Thousand Sons, and I love the LoC model. He just seems worthless right now.
lindsay40k wrote: Give it a couple of months and see what the Codex brings - GDs are in a weak spot right now and need work.
Chiming in to say I'm dumb excited for the codex, especially if it gives me a reason to finally paint my LOC. I played my Tizz gribblies a bunch in the opening of 8E, but stepped away from the game once the first codex (SM?) hit, since there's so much more going on when you've got strats, relics, 'legion rules' and all that other delicious (and free!) stuff to work with. Daemons have some real potential for crazy gak (plus CP are easy to come by with how cheap troops + budget HQs are), and I can only imagine the Tzeentch stuff will swing wildly between woefully random and game-breakingly OP
What I’m curious about is how Faction purity will work. For several editions, the monolatrist list has been somewhat discouraged; psychic powers and the nonspecific alignment of DPs and the big engine thingy made it feasible, but the notion of Chaos being perpetual civil war has diminished in favour of the notion of a halfway competent pantheon.
It would be interesting to see Deity Tactics for the different combinations that can be made without having rivals. A Khorne-Tzeentch host, or a Slaanesh-Nurgle one. Like each god’s units get a minor perk if they’re in a Detachment without any rivals, and a major one if they’re in a pure Detachment. That would give us more variety than the four pure factions alone.
As a mono-god player and demagogue fundamentally opposed to the Skittles style 'take all the good things, damn the gods' list, I'm totally with you. Given the huge variety of "legion" style army buffs in the codexes, I've wondered what Caemons will have for sub-factions - daemon worlds? particular warp breaches? notable outbreaks? - and going the god route seems far easier on the designers / more relevant to existing fluff / previous rules. Aren't there typically six or so "legion" varieties in the new codexes? So four gods + non-rival pairings you list, Linds, gets us there. Or they could do four gods + token lesser gods (Malal, not sure what other ones are psuedo-canon, apart from Horned Rat in AOS).
In my eyes, Daemons always seem to mesh together with their chaos marine counterparts of the same allegiance. I'm hoping the Daemon codex acknowledges and provides some synergies reflecting this - perhaps in the form of keywords or strategems. Would it seem unlikely for GW to provide a foundation in the Daemon codex where building a chaos daemon list is not dependent upon, but provides strong options for incorporating allegiant heretic astartes, perhaps by enhancing <Mark of Chaos> keywords? Being able to have, for example, Khorne Daemon strategems affect Khorne heretic astartes would really give way to some awesome Daemonkin list building options.
I wouldn't mind taking Possessed if the Deamon stratagems interacted with them. Hell at this point I'm just looking for a way to integrate Flesh Hounds back into my army.
I miss the Gore Pack, Hounds and Bikes rushing at the enemy in a wave of death Q_Q
Interesting, but personally I would not take malefic lords. Not a Forge world fan personally, I prefer to stick with gws stuff and not go into Forge world. Their stuff just never seems.... As balanced as normal gw stuff is. Assuming you can call what gw does as Balance.
I don't disagree with those points, but I also don't use any of those units / tactics because of the same reason.
Forge world has always been to me a kind of "elite" model side of gw. But that's all I have ever seen them as, their models are just flat out amazing. And to be fair it's not Forge world's fault that mal lords are so good. That's gw's and the smite issue. However it is their fault the mal lords are so cheap, they priced it what they did and gave it the specs they did.
Azuza001 wrote: I don't disagree with those points, but I also don't use any of those units / tactics because of the same reason.
Forge world has always been to me a kind of "elite" model side of gw. But that's all I have ever seen them as, their models are just flat out amazing. And to be fair it's not Forge world's fault that mal lords are so good. That's gw's and the smite issue. However it is their fault the mal lords are so cheap, they priced it what they did and gave it the specs they did.
Either way congratulations on the win.
This is a competitive thread and he is talking about a tournament list: shouldn't we leave our prejudice on which units are acceptable at the door? Making the rules is on games workshop.
Also, I really don't see much room for raising points on malefic lord without making them objectively worse than other cheap psykers, I suppose they could go up to 40. Part of the problem is that 2/3 of the psychic spells available to chaos daemons (the army fueled by psychic energy...) are utter trash. I feel like they front loaded the tyranids/eldar/daemons so we can fix smite without ruining psychic armies.
That being said, malefic lords really aren't too bad when you compare them to some other stuff like space marine re-roll everything + invuln auras. Sure having 5 smites for 150pts is fantastic, but so is having 8 assault cannons and las cannons that re-roll misses, failed wound saves, and are mounted on vehicles with 4+ invuln. Let's also not forget that Daemons have some of the best HQ options so malefic lords are definitely competing for space. This will only become more true when our codex comes out and (I assume) the greater daemons and heralds get a bump.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a similar note, how do you guys think they will deal with smite? I'm thinking it could afford to go up to a 7 on the psychic table.
Again I am not trying to be negative here or knock on his list. Malefic lords are a very cheap way to access psychic for chaos, they do it very well and as I have said in a different thread I don't see the issue as much the lords fault but smites fault. I really hope chapter approved gives us new "base" powers that we can replace smite with just for more variety and versatilities sake.
In a serious tournament you take the best of what you can and go for the win, I also don't disagree to that. I said personally I would not have taken them, not that no one should take them or that they are bad. I personally like Heralds for my cheaper psychic chaos choice for example. Heralds of Nurgle are more resilient, have the ability to smite and to heal Nurgle Deamons with fleshy abundance, and are only 70pts. A mal lord is 30 points, so you get 2 for 1 Herald. Which is better for your army is based on your army. In his, mal lords were obviously the choice because he won "almost no contest". Again, congratulations to Cephalobeard, I always like to see a case where our army wins.
This isn't a discussion about if mal lords are good or not, at this point they are silly good. 30 points gets you a charecter with 4+ invulnerable save, 4 wounds, smite and a few good options for spells (warp Flux is particularly nasty), and it can " hulk out" if it survived a perils of the warp attack, point me to another unit that gets stronger if it gets a perils attack on it? Mal lords are amazing, which goes back to my original point of they feel unbalanced and I personally won't run them. There is a reason many hobby stores and tournaments say "no Forge world". They are not as balanced as normal gw rules (again take it with salt, girly man isn't exactly balanced either for example).
I guess the real question is would Cephalobeards list have done so well if he couldn't take malefic lords? I know this is a tactics thread but at the same time not talking about alternative options for specific game play styles if something does change can't hurt. And that's what I am trying to say. I may not be saying it well, but it should be discussed at some point.
putting aside Cephalobeards' malific units, the true power of his list, defensively, is the number of characters on the table. He has a bullet magnet in Magnus and then at least 17 characters on the table.
He can force your target priority, while letting his brimmies dominate the obj scoring game.
So to answer your question, would he be as effective w/o spamming the lord? IMO absolutely because it's apparent he's not using the lord as a crutch... just a supplemental smite source (which Tzeentch itself can effectively spam too).
Trancefate wrote: Lol right, my buddy is like "good smite is OP"... But at 80 points... why does this unit even exist now?
Can anyone think of a logical reason to put it in any army list ever?
Good thing I'm a daemons player haha!
I guess I would still take one in a renegade list. Which I suppose is where they best belong. Problem is the other hq choices aren't all the interesting either. Blech.
GW has proven they're willing to swing a sledgehammer where only a jewelers hammer is necessary. We've been shown they're going to listen to the angry mob, even though the move is stupid.
This being said, we can very likely expect some or part of the following:
Changeling Nerf
Horrors rework, making them even worse somehow
Further smite changes
That's be likely, but it will be bad. This, to me, will unfortunately smash Tzeentch into the dirt. My next goal would be to move into Slaanesh, which has so little representation it's likely they receive the larger, if no the largest, buffs from the codex.
Which I'm all for.
Anyone have any ideas of what they think we might see/hope we may see?
I think it might be my fault. I sent some feedback, asking why the ML is 40pts but 4PL. I was semi-interested in trying this Smite spam business, but wasn't going to spend 4PL on them. Now they've got a price tag commensurate with 4PL, but for 4PL or 2pts more I could take a Seeker as a Herald on Steed. Not really much contest there!
Cephalobeard wrote: GW has proven they're willing to swing a sledgehammer where only a jewelers hammer is necessary. We've been shown they're going to listen to the angry mob, even though the move is stupid.
This being said, we can very likely expect some or part of the following:
Changeling Nerf
Horrors rework, making them even worse somehow
Further smite changes
That's be likely, but it will be bad. This, to me, will unfortunately smash Tzeentch into the dirt. My next goal would be to move into Slaanesh, which has so little representation it's likely they receive the larger, if no the largest, buffs from the codex.
Which I'm all for.
Anyone have any ideas of what they think we might see/hope we may see?
I have very similar feelings and have already began my search for a new army, sadly I'm not a fan of the other God's aesthetic really, but I'm hoping for a second wind with the codex, nids got a lot of little things that made them better so I'm hoping for similar treatment.
Cephalobeard wrote: GW has proven they're willing to swing a sledgehammer where only a jewelers hammer is necessary. We've been shown they're going to listen to the angry mob, even though the move is stupid.
This being said, we can very likely expect some or part of the following:
Changeling Nerf
Horrors rework, making them even worse somehow
Further smite changes
That's be likely, but it will be bad. This, to me, will unfortunately smash Tzeentch into the dirt. My next goal would be to move into Slaanesh, which has so little representation it's likely they receive the larger, if no the largest, buffs from the codex.
Which I'm all for.
Anyone have any ideas of what they think we might see/hope we may see?
I have very similar feelings and have already began my search for a new army, sadly I'm not a fan of the other God's aesthetic really, but I'm hoping for a second wind with the codex, nids got a lot of little things that made them better so I'm hoping for similar treatment.
Trust me, I don't want to abandon Tzeentch. I have custom dice, shirts, everything. If GW smashes me into Oblivion, though, I won't have much of a choice as I play Daemons as my competitive army.
I'm hoping that nurgle gets some of the mortal wound shenanigans that DG can throw around. No reason why the DG should be stinkier than Nurgle daemons.
Greater daemons really need love, all 4. I think that a lot of our codex hinges on if we get deep strike in any way back, or ability to summon easier. Heralds getting re-worked buffs, as +1s is pretty crap for nurgle and tzeentch.
I've been a nurgle daemon player for a long time, but I havent ran them outside of all daemon engine epidemius list since 8th dropped. DG are tons of fun, I hope daemons end up just as cool.
gwarsh41 wrote: I'm hoping that nurgle gets some of the mortal wound shenanigans that DG can throw around. No reason why the DG should be stinkier than Nurgle daemons.
Greater daemons really need love, all 4. I think that a lot of our codex hinges on if we get deep strike in any way back, or ability to summon easier. Heralds getting re-worked buffs, as +1s is pretty crap for nurgle and tzeentch.
I've been a nurgle daemon player for a long time, but I havent ran them outside of all daemon engine epidemius list since 8th dropped. DG are tons of fun, I hope daemons end up just as cool.
I would love to hear anything you have to report on the Epidemius list, my main army is Word Bearers of Ghalmek and it’s something I want to try with Fiends, Decimators, Heldrakes, and Cult of Destruction
Was hoping Tzeentch would get a cost reduction on heralds to make them a viable alternative for a smite army, but seeing the nerfs to malific I'm guessing GW ain't gonna allow such strategies because it makes people upset.
I'm hoping that Tzeentch gets something like flickering fire from 7th that can be cast multiple times in matched play. We pay for Psykers that can cast 2 or more powers, but can't make use of them properly in matched play.
Short question
Is it correct that a CSM daemon prince does buff daemons that are part of another detachment? Does it matter if the daemons are from another fraction?
Nora wrote: Short question
Is it correct that a CSM daemon prince does buff daemons that are part of another detachment? Does it matter if the daemons are from another fraction?
That's correct; the Daemon Prince's aura looks for models that either have the <Legion> keyword or have both the Daemon and the appropriate god's keyword. So a Slaanesh Daemon Prince from the Word Bearer Legion will give the bonus to any friendly Word Bearer models within range and also any friendly Slaanesh Daemon models within range. Hope this helps.
Nora wrote: Short question
Is it correct that a CSM daemon prince does buff daemons that are part of another detachment? Does it matter if the daemons are from another fraction?
That's correct; the Daemon Prince's aura looks for models that either have the <Legion> keyword or have both the Daemon and the appropriate god's keyword. So a Slaanesh Daemon Prince from the Word Bearer Legion will give the bonus to any friendly Word Bearer models within range and also any friendly Slaanesh Daemon models within range. Hope this helps.
It would even apply to a Black Legion Slaaneshi Obliterator unit, if you really like soup lists
Hmm. With Voice of Lorgar (+3 aura range), that’s actually a pretty interesting gimmick...
Man, I didn't think they'd hike up Zarakynel by THAT much...
Any chance of them making her a little better to compensate? I mean, she's good as is, and could've done with a small points increase, but come on...
I just hope the Daemons codex will come with strong options/rules that are about as good as CSM. There are those of us who want to run a Daemon or Mostly-Daemon army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: #breathes # ok Uraka got a 20 pt cut, which is good.
The Spined chaos beast got a 20 pt cut, and is the same as the spawn, so both are equally awful now I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why on earth have plague toads and pox riders gone up when plague drones came down
Automatically Appended Next Post: Samus being cheaper is good. Maybe usable now.. was anyone using Angrath? Back at 888 again. Why couldn't auto be 999 that would be fair .
Anyway... WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. Again. Instead of balancing stuff, they remove it completelly. Would any of the big 4 see any play? Zara wasn't good and got a HUGE increase. Bird is dead as dead can be. Scabby was already "I think he's worth his points". Now.... eh....
I'm glad I made all of my Malefic Lord's out of a reasonably daemonic looking model. As I'm not seeing any changes to smite here, it looks like they're all about to become Slaanesh Heralds.
Arachnofiend wrote: Pink Horrors are still worthless at 7 ppm, right? I think they'd have to be 5 to be worth considering.
Still worse than post nerf conscripts.... :/
To be honest I wish they kept them at 10 points and just buffed the gak out of their gun so that they're actually worth taking as more than a body; as long as pinks and blues are just bodies they will always be inferior to the cheaper body of a brimstone.
My wish about horrors (which has absolutely no chance at happening) is that they make so the only way you can get blues and brimstones is through splitting, though the splitting would be free and baked into the cost of pinks. Would make it hella lot easier to balance all 3 if they are all the same unit.
They could also provide a cheaper version of pinks that dont split for thoose people who dont have blues and brimstones.
ThePie wrote: My wish about horrors (which has absolutely no chance at happening) is that they make so the only way you can get blues and brimstones is through splitting, though the splitting would be free and baked into the cost of pinks. Would make it hella lot easier to balance all 3 if they are all the same unit.
They could also provide a cheaper version of pinks that dont split for thoose people who dont have blues and brimstones.
I am also in the camp of thinking this is the way it should be. It is also a little silly that Horrors have a "this costs points" written into them while half of the other stuff in the game is a "This may or may not cost points! Stay tuned to find out!".
So my personal favorite chaos God is Khorne and I have been looking for a way for bloodletters and the Bloodthirsters to be effective. Khorne just doesnt seem to hold up to the other gods though. Am I missing something? Is there hope in the new codex?
Darksteve wrote: So my personal favorite chaos God is Khorne and I have been looking for a way for bloodletters and the Bloodthirsters to be effective. Khorne just doesnt seem to hold up to the other gods though. Am I missing something? Is there hope in the new codex?
All actual chaos daemon armies(Greater Daemon + Herald + troops+elites/fast attack/heavy support) are trash except maybe Nurgle at the moment. Don't worry, that's nothing out of the ordinary.
Darksteve wrote: So my personal favorite chaos God is Khorne and I have been looking for a way for bloodletters and the Bloodthirsters to be effective. Khorne just doesnt seem to hold up to the other gods though. Am I missing something? Is there hope in the new codex?
You're not missing anything: Khorne is currently worse than the other gods due to getting a measly +1A instead of magiks. We'll hopefully see stratagems and artifacts that help Khorne units move up the board faster. I doubt we'll ever get anything defensive, I'm hoping for big price cuts to Khorne units so we can horde up. I ran Deamonkin in 7th and it was a blast. I would love to run my Bloodletter horde with my Flesh Hounds again, toss in my Bloodthirster for good measure why not. World Eaters are fun on their own but gimme that fluff!
I think FWs increases on big boys is GW telling them to help keep them out of tournaments. The tournament scene was getting a little overridden by superheavies. Having a warhound at 2K is pretty harsh.
Giant chaos spawn needed it, like last edition they were hilariously cheap, especially with them getting legit daemon marks, that was a huge free buff.
I'm thinking they slacked on daemons because the codex is supposed to be soon. Index daemons, with no allies or FW support, just feel terrible right now to me.
Also, not sure why plague toads went up, sure the -1 to be hit is nice, but it's a huge investment. Wishful thinking is that the codex will have something that makes them worth the points.
Here’s a fun fact. If you take a Bloodthirster, it takes 216 bolter shots to kill him.
Bolters are anti-horde weapons because they lack AP. Str 4 makes it great for killing Tough 3 tiny units with low armor save. Obviously it shuold be more efficient against tough 3 troops, right? Well let’s see
If you take an equivalent number of brimstones (113), it takes 510 bolter shots to kill them. That’s disregarding the fact that they have access to a -1 to be hit aura…
But let’s say brimstones are OP, broken, etc…
Pink Horrors. They’re pretty bad. Let’s check those out(48 of them in this case). It takes 218 shots.
So again:
Bloodthirster: 216 shots
Brimstones:510 shots
Pink Horrors: 218 shots
Why does an anti-horde weapon, like a bolter work better against a huge monster than small tiny troops?
What about an anti tank weapon(Las cannon). By this broken logic, it should work better against troops? :p
Bloodthirster: 15.42857143 shots
Brimstones: 408 shots
Pink horrors: 174 shots
Yeah……. This is why I don’t think any math was done when making up the point costs.
For BT to start to be more resilient to bolter shots than Brimstones, he should cost 140 points. Wow. That’s -200 points. Obviously, we have to take offensive capabilities into account… But we can clearly see that anti-horde weapons are more efficient at killing big guys than actual hordes. And that’s…. quite sad.
blackmage wrote: this is NOT the big guys ediction....aside from some rare cases.
Except if you take a ton of them. Because of how powerful anti-horde is in the meta, the opponent will most likelly not have enough anti-superheavy weapons as they are suboptimal. So you focus the anti-superheavy weapons and win by default.
But that's when objectives rear their ugly head.
rvd can you explain a bit more this chart? It looks very interesting but the columns such as "advanced" I am not sure. Can you provide some more details?
blackmage wrote: this is NOT the big guys ediction....aside from some rare cases.
Except if you take a ton of them. Because of how powerful anti-horde is in the meta, the opponent will most likelly not have enough anti-superheavy weapons as they are suboptimal. So you focus the anti-superheavy weapons and win by default.
But that's when objectives rear their ugly head.
yes im gonna try a list with Morty Magnus chaos knight and 2 Nurgle Dp's
Well unfortunately the nerf bat spanked a good amount of forgeworld stuff, but the rare thing that got cheaper is a spined chaos beast. 190 to 150, 12 wounds, and can heal too. Other then that though everything got absolutely shat on which is rough, but spined chaos will be great!
Possible new GUO and sounds like AoS Slimux will be joining 40k
Ok, time to unload my old GUOs! Slimux is an awesome sculpt, super happy we will have him. I wonder if the new sculpt is beasts of nurgle. Height of a PB and bulkier sounds plausible.
Yeah I hope so too, I really need to add to my Nurgle army but they still have so many ugly (and not in a good way) models. I think beasts of nurgle is next. And I totally agree, I love Slimux.
I'll probably still have to pull the trigger on an old guo in the meantime though, I'm going to need one stat for an escalation Leauge soon
Anyone have any experience with the plauge drones? The ones that look like giant flies. I got my hands on 3 NOS for 15$ and have not put them together yet, not sure what their roll is really in a deamon army. Are they just flying close combat monsters?
Azuza001 wrote: Anyone have any experience with the plauge drones? The ones that look like giant flies. I got my hands on 3 NOS for 15$ and have not put them together yet, not sure what their roll is really in a deamon army. Are they just flying close combat monsters?
I’ll probably end up using mine as bullet catchers for my Daemon Princes...
Yeah, D2 and a bunch of attacks is an odd statline, they’ve not got the strength and AP to deal with most units where multiple damage is useful. Mobile tanking seems to be their thing. Might get better if a Herald can ride with them. I can see S5 D2 being okay in Primaris-rich environments.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, D2 and a bunch of attacks is an odd statline, they’ve not got the strength and AP to deal with most units where multiple damage is useful. Mobile tanking seems to be their thing. Might get better if a Herald can ride with them. I can see S5 D2 being okay in Primaris-rich environments.
Herald doesn't really help them since he boosts the strength characteristic of the model and thats only for the rider attacks, the drone attacks use a melee weapon stat line which is 4 instead of "user".
Good points, maybe they will get better next month, have to wait and see. Either way 3 for 15 seemed like a good deal. :p
I ended up playing a small game earlier against the new Tyrnaid codex, just 1000pts but it turned into an amazing game. Few things I learned from it.
1. A small detachment or just making the list chaos soup and losing legion tactics was well worth it. Ended up taking a forgefiend with hades auto cannons and a sorcerer of tzeench, sorcerer casting prescience on it all game and man did the +1 to hit rolls help. Made an effective fire base for my deamons to feed off of.
2. Took a soul grinder for the first time, was not impressed with it but it wasn't the units fault. First and second turns it got shot at by every big gun on the other side of the field (2 stranglehorns and a venom cannon, plus some devourers that got in range) I rolled for crap on the armor saves so it was dropped to 1 wound by my second turn, but even then I still killed a genestealer that charged it from overwatch and the phlegm cannon. That alone was funny to think of.
3. Skull taker and Bloodletters rock! Deamonettes not so much. Had a squad of 10 demonettes charge a pack of 20 genestealers that were next to a broodlord and which had catalyst on it. I know, not smart, but it was either charge them or get charged. So the deamonettes kill 1 genestealer and then get wiped. Next the stealers end up charging my soul grinder and a squad of rubrics that were near it acting as protection. Both got hammered by the stealers, causing the grinder to finally die and all but the aspiring sorcerer to die. But then I charged the 19 stealers and broodlord with 20 Bloodletters and skulltaker. And they just killed the genestealers dead. Heck, even skull taker got lucky and killed the broodlord before it got a chance to fight back. These guys were my mvp's, ended up killing a wounded carnifex, 7 termagaunts, 19 genestealers, and a broodlord before getting wiped out.
All in all I had a blast. Now I need to buy more Bloodletters, would love a squad of 30 to have some real fun.
Oh dude, trust me. Soul Grinder is baaaaaad. Defensivelly it's ok. Offensivelly, they do NOTHING. AT ALL. EVER.
And yeah, Bloodletters gak on Daemonettes. There is absolutelly zero reason to take them.
Don't forget that the Bloodthirsty doesn't suffer from battle shock, Which can almost double the amount of models killed depending on the situation. So ignoring Brimstones (which are broken and have almost zero offensive capabilities) bolters are considerably better at stopping the hordes with even relatively low battle shock casualties.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here’s a fun fact. If you take a Bloodthirster, it takes 216 bolter shots to kill him.
Bolters are anti-horde weapons because they lack AP. Str 4 makes it great for killing Tough 3 tiny units with low armor save. Obviously it shuold be more efficient against tough 3 troops, right? Well let’s see
If you take an equivalent number of brimstones (113), it takes 510 bolter shots to kill them. That’s disregarding the fact that they have access to a -1 to be hit aura…
But let’s say brimstones are OP, broken, etc…
Pink Horrors. They’re pretty bad. Let’s check those out(48 of them in this case). It takes 218 shots.
So again:
Bloodthirster: 216 shots
Brimstones:510 shots
Pink Horrors: 218 shots
Why does an anti-horde weapon, like a bolter work better against a huge monster than small tiny troops?
What about an anti tank weapon(Las cannon). By this broken logic, it should work better against troops? :p
Bloodthirster: 15.42857143 shots
Brimstones: 408 shots
Pink horrors: 174 shots
Yeah……. This is why I don’t think any math was done when making up the point costs.
For BT to start to be more resilient to bolter shots than Brimstones, he should cost 140 points. Wow. That’s -200 points. Obviously, we have to take offensive capabilities into account… But we can clearly see that anti-horde weapons are more efficient at killing big guys than actual hordes. And that’s…. quite sad.
Horrors don't have it, guardsmen only have it if they're Valhallan (locking those squads out of Cadian goodies), cultists only have it if they're Iron Warriors (locking those squads out of Alpha Legion goodies)... leaves orks and tyranids as the hordes that you can reasonably expect to have morale immunity on competitive tables. So a little less than half of the hordes. Significant boon to the hordes that do have it, though saying "pretty much every" one has "easy access" is definitely a stretch.
Well everyone has easy access through CP, can if you have enough bodies CP becomes less of an issue.
But not factoring in battleshock is still a bad idea in most instances.
Brimstones are so good, they hardly care about moreale. They're more than 2x resistant to the ANTIHORDE weapon.
Orks and tyranids pretty much completelly ignore it (and are as resistant to ANTIHORDE weapons as a bloodthirster).
Cultists and Infantry have access to it as well with worlds. Finally, as was mentioned, you can pay 2CP.
If you don't think <=6 pts hordes are broken now, I don't know what to tell you guys. When's the last time you've seen a successful imperium army without hordes of 4pts units, chaos without hordes of 3-5 pts units and orks without 60-120 boyz? The only exceptions pretty much are when the all superheavy list gets lucky. Hordes crap all over elite armies and armies with only a few big guys.
At LD7 Brimstones absolutely care about morale. It's the easiest way to kill them. Large units of horrors are a deathknell against enemies that can remove a few models from multiple squads, as well as against any enemy that can manipulate their leadership.
Cephalobeard wrote: At LD7 Brimstones absolutely care about morale. It's the easiest way to kill them. Large units of horrors are a deathknell against enemies that can remove a few models from multiple squads, as well as against any enemy that can manipulate their leadership.
Yes but in relation to the Bloodthirster, the antihorde weapon is still superior against the big monster rather than an actual horde. And again, the main this is that anti-tank weapons will NEVER be better against hordes than tanks. Not even close. It's like the antihorde weapon is about 20-40% superior against hordes, when compared to not an overpriced piece of trash like the Bloodthirster. And the anti-tank weapon is about 500% superior.
Damage from weapons should spread like mortal wounds. It'd remove all the hassle with multiwound units and 1 wound models can stay cheap.
Obviously it's too big of a change(probably) and they'll never do it, as you'd have to re-evaluate 1 wound 3+ (or better) armour save units.
Cataphract wrote: Any recommendations for a Khorne/Slaanesh list right now?
Is it better to go with 20 or 30 units of Bloodletters/Daemonettes?
Best to go 0. Go in with heralds, surrounded by brimstones, and summon bloodletters(who are a straight up upgrade to daemonettes and cost the.... same.... huh....)
Azuza001 wrote: Anyone have any experience with the plauge drones? The ones that look like giant flies. I got my hands on 3 NOS for 15$ and have not put them together yet, not sure what their roll is really in a deamon army. Are they just flying close combat monsters?
They were excellent in 7th when the leader could take an ap2 mastercrafted weapon and they auto glanced vehicles on 6s. Now? As others said, and like many other daemon units, they are in a weird spot that doesn't really work. I guess they are good at killing other daemons lol.
I think Burning Chariots do best when you bring a large number of them or multiple other threats to overwhelm your opponent.
The last tournament I went to I brought 9 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch in a 1600 point game. The rest of my list consisted of 2 DP, Changeling, Blue Scribes, and as many brims as I could take. While it wasn't a super competitive event, I easily claimed first place. We used Eternal War missions from the book and used the total VP gained over the 3 rounds to determine the winner - I was ahead of 2nd place by 10 VP.
The strength of the chariots is being able to move wherever you need them. Either claiming objectives or shooting, then charging in (they are no slouch in close combat with their 9 attacks!)
If you find them in combat when it's your next turn you can shoot with your pistol mode to do d6 s5 ap -1 auto-hits into your opponent or you can just fly away and kill something else. Add in that if someone charges you there is a good chance that you will be able to auto hit with your flamer.
They are just so versatile against a wide range of targets.
You may find that people will advocate for the Exalted Flamer as being a superior choice, and while in many ways it is (being a character and all with same weapon load out), I find that your speed and threat radius is limited by the chaff unit that is protecting it which in turn reduces your effectiveness in controlling objectives.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: What about Chaos Land Raider? It costs 350pts and has who lascanons. Is he good for delivering Rubric flamers?
Actually, I quite like this.
I’ve struggled to find a use for my Land Raider. Everything I’ve put in it seems quite suboptimal.
With DS not having mishaps, anchoring Terminators to a LR seems like a waste.
Berzerkers want delivery, but at their price it’s better to send two Rhinos. Or send a full squad in KAC or Spartan.
PMs and NMs arent shock troops that want a tough transport to take them into a bloodbath.
Chosen probably want a Dreadclaw to reach their idea target.
.
I’ve planned to add a Rhino full of Rubric Fire, as a counter to deep strikers. But it seemed like an expensive scarecrow/fire engine.
Putting them in the Raider, deleting the Termagant brood that keeps reinforcing itself, and daring the Genestealers to declare a charge? Popping a CP to give the Sorcerer a useful power? I’m sold.
Perhaps not tournament material, but it looks like an entirely viable option in my meta.
Edit: I going to repost this in the general Chaos Tactica thread, this ain’t the place for a CSM digression
JakeSiren wrote: I think Burning Chariots do best when you bring a large number of them or multiple other threats to overwhelm your opponent.
The last tournament I went to I brought 9 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch in a 1600 point game. The rest of my list consisted of 2 DP, Changeling, Blue Scribes, and as many brims as I could take. While it wasn't a super competitive event, I easily claimed first place. We used Eternal War missions from the book and used the total VP gained over the 3 rounds to determine the winner - I was ahead of 2nd place by 10 VP.
The strength of the chariots is being able to move wherever you need them. Either claiming objectives or shooting, then charging in (they are no slouch in close combat with their 9 attacks!)
If you find them in combat when it's your next turn you can shoot with your pistol mode to do d6 s5 ap -1 auto-hits into your opponent or you can just fly away and kill something else. Add in that if someone charges you there is a good chance that you will be able to auto hit with your flamer.
They are just so versatile against a wide range of targets.
You may find that people will advocate for the Exalted Flamer as being a superior choice, and while in many ways it is (being a character and all with same weapon load out), I find that your speed and threat radius is limited by the chaff unit that is protecting it which in turn reduces your effectiveness in controlling objectives.
Thanks for sharing! I had ruled them out of my list myself because of all the praise exalted are getting. BC's are a bit more interesting mechanics-wise so hearing they're viable is nice.
I saw Blue scribes being mentioned recently, a unit I had disregarded completely myself.
Is the biggest issue getting it inside the 12inch range of the Aura or the fact that since it can't smite a herald is just a better option?
I figure the -1 could be quite useful against a target like the Eldar, potentially losing their Doom spell on a bad roll.
Secondly I'm a bit confused by the wording on it's second ability:
When manifesting a random Tzeentch spell, does this count against the max 1 casting of every spell per turn limit?
knas wrote: I saw Blue scribes being mentioned recently, a unit I had disregarded completely myself.
Is the biggest issue getting it inside the 12inch range of the Aura or the fact that since it can't smite a herald is just a better option?
I figure the -1 could be quite useful against a target like the Eldar, potentially losing their Doom spell on a bad roll.
Secondly I'm a bit confused by the wording on it's second ability:
When manifesting a random Tzeentch spell, does this count against the max 1 casting of every spell per turn limit?
Hmm. Potentially viable gimmick. Not worth building a list around in their present form. Could be worth packing for Summoning. Give it a month and we’ll see where things stand, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BACK THE WARP UP. They’re a CHARACTER so can hide, and their psyker trolling & mobility have bang-on synergy with Fiends. Who can also heavily tarpit Psykers.
Depending on your meta, this could be a very nasty cat amongst the pigeons.
Edit:
ok after some googling I figured it out - but where do you get your news from? I have warhammer community and some other sites in my favorites but everyone always seems to reference some blogpost or podcast which I can never find reference to. What are the best sites to get these updates?
If it was only when dealing with full smite I would be OK with it. Weaker smites need to be left alone. Who is really afraid of 1 damage Grey knight and destructor smites? Or horror smites? No one. It's the d3/d6 ones that are the issue, even that's arguable as well.
Poor brimmys, gw is giving them coal for Christmas, which for them maybe is a good thing?
Poor brimmys, gw is giving them coal for Christmas, which for them maybe is a good thing?
think about who bought 150 of them
I own 100 and will definitely still play them, the smite nerf is very minimal for their purpose, super cheap 4++ bodies. Smite was just a bonus.
hope they will not change their rules/cost in next codex
I honestly don't think they will really touch brimstone horrors other than to consolidate all their errata into one profile. It's the one unit I don't fear for just cause it's already been tweaked so much already.
If you're expecting any one model to get nerfed in the codex, bank on it being the Changeling. The tyranid equivalent already got bumped up to 140 points.
I just hope the (potential) changes to smite are considered in the design of the new codex and at the very least Tzeetch gets 2-3 solid offensive powers.
I don't think it effects Brimmies much, as they are a chaff unit (probably the best in 40k right now), but makes blue/pink horrors even worse and makes a mono-tzeetch demon list virtually unplayable- the only even mildly competitive build with just spam Brimmies and exalted flamers (yawn).
The codex has been long done before these rules were considered probably. So mono-tzeentch will most likelly be unplayable apart from spamming Eflamers(who will probably get changed too)
knas wrote: I saw Blue scribes being mentioned recently, a unit I had disregarded completely myself.
Is the biggest issue getting it inside the 12inch range of the Aura or the fact that since it can't smite a herald is just a better option?
I figure the -1 could be quite useful against a target like the Eldar, potentially losing their Doom spell on a bad roll.
Secondly I'm a bit confused by the wording on it's second ability:
When manifesting a random Tzeentch spell, does this count against the max 1 casting of every spell per turn limit?
The answer is maybe. The Psychic Focus rule says "Each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn", and Xirat'p's Sorcerous Barrage says that that you manifest a power. A curious property of Sorcerous Barrage is that there is no requirement to use it at the start of the psychic phase. This means you could conceivably cast all Tzeentch powers, then use Sorcerous Barrage to cast one of them a second time bypassing any Psychic Focus restrictions. I personally play it that Sorcerous Barrage occurs at the start of the psychic phase to avoid any issues / arguments.
lindsay40k wrote: Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.
Yeah, hate to break it to you, bud. The word beta barely means anything here. If the FLG guys have had their cocky hands in the pot, you can guarantee it will become standard purely through virtue of them having been involved.
Whether your local events adopt them, however, is another matter.
lindsay40k wrote: Cease this frit mewling. It’s a beta rule that both sides must consent to using, and the Codex is coming very soon.
Yeah, hate to break it to you, bud. The word beta barely means anything here. If the FLG guys have had their cocky hands in the pot, you can guarantee it will become standard purely through virtue of them having been involved.
Whether your local events adopt them, however, is another matter.
I'm not too upset by the change, the vast majority of daemon players, even the topics in this thread, focus on tzeentch and smite heavy lists. Following the change and a codex maybe we'll see more diversity again.
Anyone who picked up an Index, that GW made very clear was a temporary get-you-by thing to be replaced by a Codex pretty soon, and which GW also made pretty clear would be rebalanced as they engaged with the community, and from that starting point purchased loads and loads of stuff that seemed undercosted for what it did there and then, was setting themselves up for disappointment.
I’ve got a whole bunch of Tzeentch Daemons stuff, and I’m optimistic on them getting what Pyrovores got - a bit of tweaking here and there to make things viable. I don’t need my Screamers to be pooping melta bombs on land raiders again, just something sensible like the adjustments to Tyrannofex and Dakkafex.
Main thing I want to see is Horrors that play well with Power Level based Matched Play.
And the main thing I’m crossing my fingers about is Epidemius retaining his synergy with Daemon engines.
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone who picked up an Index, that GW made very clear was a temporary get-you-by thing to be replaced by a Codex pretty soon, and which GW also made pretty clear would be rebalanced as they engaged with the community, and from that starting point purchased loads and loads of stuff that seemed undercosted for what it did there and then, was setting themselves up for disappointment.
I’ve got a whole bunch of Tzeentch Daemons stuff, and I’m optimistic on them getting what Pyrovores got - a bit of tweaking here and there to make things viable. I don’t need my Screamers to be pooping melta bombs on land raiders again, just something sensible like the adjustments to Tyrannofex and Dakkafex.
Main thing I want to see is Horrors that play well with Power Level based Matched Play.
And the main thing I’m crossing my fingers about is Epidemius retaining his synergy with Daemon engines.
Power Level matched play is a complete oxymoron for me. You want balanced gameplay, but will never get points adjustments? Seriously. Power levels will probably always stay the same after the codex. Only the points will change, as proven with the chapter approved book.
Anywho... So what's gonna happen to brimstones?
a. only taken by split
b. reduced to T1
c. untouched
the power level MATCHED? really? that kind of BALANCED game where terminators with combi bolters cost same as plasma termies? that's not matched at all... in matched you must pay what you buy period...thanks
Power level matched play works for casual games where you still enjoy some sort of balance. The difference between PL imbalance, and casting miasma of pestilence or warp time +1 time per phase is massive. The type of people who enjoy power level games are not the type to exploit it, which is an alien train of thought to those who enjoy WAAC play. Beer and Pretzels 40k does actually exist.
No need to get all huffy because some people are find with power level.
With brimstones, I think it will be a good time to see how much GW still likes to play the "Everyone bought these models, time to make them unusable" card. I think their battlefield role should be similar to cultists, just camp on objectives, speedbump, and light harassment. However when points get that low, it becomes really tough to balance, especially when your model is basically a tumbleweed with an invulnerable save.
They made their bed with Brimstones, they gotta lie in it now. It never should have existed outside of split, but they did it anyway.
If they took them away as a troop option, you'll see an awful lot of angry customers. If they make them available only through split, and they don't make pinks more reasonable, you'll have the same scenario.
Best case, imo, drop the price back to 2ppm, give them only a 5 or 6++, and drop them to T2. Enjoy your horde troop that literally won't ever do anything.
EdIt: I say this as one of the top 10 Daemon players in the ITC. I have a bias with them, but I really don't think they're going to ever "fix" them. My secret hope is that they just make flamers troops and I can use those instead.
The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.
I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.
The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.
IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.
Does anyone have experience with the Skull Cannon from Khorne Daemons? I want to know just how playable it is. Not how great or good or even ok it is, I just want to know if there is ANY viable reason to /ever/ take this thing.
I'm gonna play my third game with my Slaanesh/EC army and I will be facing Tyranids for the first time. I'll be using these units:
30 Demonettes (3x10 with 1 herald)
10ish seekers with herald
KoS (my first time!)
DP with wings
noise marines
vindicator
I also have a forge/maulerfiend
My opponent will have:
a tryant
swarmlord
tervigon and gaunts
genestealers
exocrine
Out of all that I'm most worried about the swarmlord. How will the KoS and DP fare against it? I can get rid of the KoS to proxy some oblits or a predator, but I'm trying for this to be my fun/casual army and don't want to over do it with all the best units, yet at the same time don't want to get totally crushed. I would also like to keep the KoS for the Slaanesh flavor.
Ideas on how I should play? We're doing 1500 points.
Discodoggy wrote: I'm gonna play my third game with my Slaanesh/EC army and I will be facing Tyranids for the first time. I'll be using these units:
30 Demonettes (3x10 with 1 herald)
10ish seekers with herald
KoS (my first time!)
DP with wings
noise marines
vindicator
I also have a forge/maulerfiend
My opponent will have:
a tryant
swarmlord
tervigon and gaunts
genestealers
exocrine
Out of all that I'm most worried about the swarmlord. How will the KoS and DP fare against it? I can get rid of the KoS to proxy some oblits or a predator, but I'm trying for this to be my fun/casual army and don't want to over do it with all the best units, yet at the same time don't want to get totally crushed. I would also like to keep the KoS for the Slaanesh flavor.
Ideas on how I should play? We're doing 1500 points.
In my peronsal opinion, chop those seekers down to 5 and add in either Marines, or Cultists. You will find yourself lacking anything to help protect your HQ choices against sudden attacks, which genestealers can easily do. Even so much as 20 cultists or 5 marines and a heavy bolter can go a long way in protecting your back line.
JakeSiren wrote: The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.
I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.
The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.
IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.
Increasing the price makes split less viable. They've dropped the print of pinks twice now, but also increased the price of Brims. They're useless, arbitrary changes.
You either need moderately price (12 or so) ppm pinks that have free split and bad saves, or very cheap versions of all the models otherwise no one will ever use them.
There is a monetary argument, as well, as each series of splits for 10 Pinks is $100 US for the price. It's an absolute atrocious troops choice because you have no other option, and they've shoehorned it into the ground.
JakeSiren wrote: The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.
I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.
The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.
IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.
Increasing the price makes split less viable. They've dropped the print of pinks twice now, but also increased the price of Brims. They're useless, arbitrary changes.
You either need moderately price (12 or so) ppm pinks that have free split and bad saves, or very cheap versions of all the models otherwise no one will ever use them.
There is a monetary argument, as well, as each series of splits for 10 Pinks is $100 US for the price. It's an absolute atrocious troops choice because you have no other option, and they've shoehorned it into the ground.
Don't the Tzaangors or whatever they're called have the Daemon keyword? They're Tzeetch Daemons, just from a different side of the Chaos Books
Discodoggy wrote: I'm gonna play my third game with my Slaanesh/EC army and I will be facing Tyranids for the first time. I'll be using these units:
30 Demonettes (3x10 with 1 herald)
10ish seekers with herald
KoS (my first time!)
DP with wings
noise marines
vindicator
I also have a forge/maulerfiend
My opponent will have:
a tryant
swarmlord
tervigon and gaunts
genestealers
exocrine
Out of all that I'm most worried about the swarmlord. How will the KoS and DP fare against it? I can get rid of the KoS to proxy some oblits or a predator, but I'm trying for this to be my fun/casual army and don't want to over do it with all the best units, yet at the same time don't want to get totally crushed. I would also like to keep the KoS for the Slaanesh flavor.
Ideas on how I should play? We're doing 1500 points.
In my peronsal opinion, chop those seekers down to 5 and add in either Marines, or Cultists. You will find yourself lacking anything to help protect your HQ choices against sudden attacks, which genestealers can easily do. Even so much as 20 cultists or 5 marines and a heavy bolter can go a long way in protecting your back line.
Thank you, I will consider that. I could go with more noise marines and keep the flavor.
JakeSiren wrote: The biggest problem with Brimstones becoming t2 is that there are no rules to handle multi-toughness units.
I would rather see another points increase rather than a 5/6++ as Tzeentches thing is having 4++.
The funny thing about Brimstones is that even if they were costed at 5ppm, they would still have better utility than Blue Horrors. And still also better utility than 7ppm Pinks.
IMO they need to improve split to make it more attractive. At the moment you are likely to lose half of your models due to moral after splitting. I wouldn't mind if when splitting that it negates the penalty for the lost model. This would make me consider taking Pinks / Blues just for the resilient hoard factor. It may however be too powerful of an ability.
Increasing the price makes split less viable. They've dropped the print of pinks twice now, but also increased the price of Brims. They're useless, arbitrary changes.
You either need moderately price (12 or so) ppm pinks that have free split and bad saves, or very cheap versions of all the models otherwise no one will ever use them.
There is a monetary argument, as well, as each series of splits for 10 Pinks is $100 US for the price. It's an absolute atrocious troops choice because you have no other option, and they've shoehorned it into the ground.
Don't the Tzaangors or whatever they're called have the Daemon keyword? They're Tzeetch Daemons, just from a different side of the Chaos Books
vaklor4 wrote: Does anyone have experience with the Skull Cannon from Khorne Daemons? I want to know just how playable it is. Not how great or good or even ok it is, I just want to know if there is ANY viable reason to /ever/ take this thing.
Complete trash.
Also there are rules for mixed toughness... kinda. Orks have them. When they take grot support, they just use the ork's toughness instead.
Don't the Tzaangors or whatever they're called have the Daemon keyword? They're Tzeetch Daemons, just from a different side of the Chaos Books
Nope. Because reasons.
Tzaangor's are beastial mutants, not daemons
Sure. Reasons. If Nurgle get Pestigors in the Codex as rumors have potentially indicated, and they have the Daemon rule and Tzeentch doesn't gain Tzaangors, we can all rage accordingly.
andysonic1 wrote: Did someone say Khorngors? Because I would KILL for some dedicated melee cheap bubble wrap.
Seconded. I have a box of assembled Beastmen that i have been holding off painting, that were going to turn into daemonettes, but khornegors would be way cooler.
I keep trying to make a list and then hearing a little deamonic voice in the back of my head whispering that Khorne is coming. I'm hoping some of the auras, stratagems, and relics coming in the deamon codex are only god specific so that CSM benefit from a mono-god force. Bonus points if it helps major legions. I pray everyday that KDK returns.
andysonic1 wrote: I keep trying to make a list and then hearing a little deamonic voice in the back of my head whispering that Khorne is coming. I'm hoping some of the auras, stratagems, and relics coming in the deamon codex are only god specific so that CSM benefit from a mono-god force. Bonus points if it helps major legions. I pray everyday that KDK returns.
Just a few more weeks now...
I knwo the feeling x.x i've been thinking of putting together an elemetnal daemons army with all four gods. Theo nly problem is slannesh sorta sucks when you compare everything with corn. I really wanna do a big summoning angle to the list as well, and lean of pink horror bursting into brim stones and blue horrors.
andysonic1 wrote: I keep trying to make a list and then hearing a little deamonic voice in the back of my head whispering that Khorne is coming. I'm hoping some of the auras, stratagems, and relics coming in the deamon codex are only god specific so that CSM benefit from a mono-god force. Bonus points if it helps major legions. I pray everyday that KDK returns.
Just a few more weeks now...
I am itching to put Kairos on the table next to Magnus. I've got a theoretical list already that uses Magnus, Kairos, a Fire Raptor, and a rhino full of Warpflamer Rubrics as four extremely dangerous, highly durable targets. All I need for it to work is for Kairos to be worth his points... a tall order, I know, but I gotta have faith!
It’s the third day of Nurgle – a very special day indeed, given the significance of the number 3 to the God of Plagues! Today, we’re checking out a couple of the new Heralds available to Nurgle armies:
Previously, Nurgle only had one kind of Herald available, known appropriately as a Herald. However, these guys only represented some of the myriad servants available to the God of Plagues, and with the new Codex: Chaos Daemons and Battletome: Maggotkin of Nurgle, Heralds are getting more diverse than ever.
Our favourite has to be the Sloppity Bilepiper, a miniature that sums up the repugnant jollity of Nurgle perfectly. Armed with a set of jolly gutpipes and a marotter (crafted from the remains of the previous Sloppity Bilepiper), these Heralds are the victims and carriers of the Chortling Murrain, a disease that causes its victims to laugh themselves to death. Sloppity Bilepipers cavort and joke with Nurglings, Great Unclean Ones and Beasts of Nurgle (but not Plaguebearers, who lack a sense of humour) and strike horror into the hearts of their mortal foes.
Meanwhile, the Spoilpox Scrivener is a downright dour creature by comparison… It’s the job of the Spoilpox Scriveners to ensure that Plaguebearers meet their tallies, a job they accomplish by relentlessly browbeating and bullying their counterparts with a barrage of insults and commands. On the tabletop, the Spoilpox Scrivener will ensure that your Plaguebearers fight harder, making them a handy strategic lynchpin for the rest of your army.
Make sure to come back tomorrow, when we’ll be taking a look at some of Nurgle’s more mortal (but no less deadly!) servants.
So looks like one of the heralds is mainly for your monstrous guys and the other is for your infantry blobs. That's a pretty big away from the locus of the previous edition. It also brings up the question: is Nurgle going to be better than the other chaos gods because of these unique editions to his army or will everyone else get similar units they will have to kitbash?
Codex info is most likely all next week, with the pre-order up on the 6th. The FLG guys have stated clearly that the Deamons Codex will be used at the LVO, meaning there is a very high chance it will come out two weeks before the LVO (as that is how long they like things out before allowing them in tournaments). OR, GW could be absolutely insane and allow us to pre-order this coming Saturday. With all the hype they are building I wouldn't be surprised.
All I know is I want some unique Khorne Heralds please. Mayhaps one that increases the movement of your nearby Bloodletter units, or allows them to advance and charge, or reroll charge rolls. Also I want a beastmaster Herald that can whip your Khorne Dogs into a frenzy, maybe holding a ketchup bottle or something.
I either want my screamers to be good again, or I want to run Kairos and multiple LoC. I'll repeat this and hope to the changer if ways for it every day until inception.
HERK wait a minute if they make the auras unit specific that is going to kill CSM + Deamon list interactions. Your Possessed, Warp Talons, Oblits, and Mutis won't gain anything anymore (potentially). Sure your deamons will be buffed but my dreams for a Deamonkin force are being crushed before my eyes!
I'm getting a little bit of an eye roll at this point with how heavily they've been pushing Nurgle. It seems like they just want Khorne to stay in AoS, and Slaanesh to die off.
Considering Tzeentch only got the Lord of Change model, and blues/brimstones during their big event for actual Daemon models, and now Nurgle is swimming in them, I'd tend to agree as well.
vaklor4 wrote: I'm getting a little bit of an eye roll at this point with how heavily they've been pushing Nurgle. It seems like they just want Khorne to stay in AoS, and Slaanesh to die off.
Nurgle Daemons have 7 units in the index. Three of those have old non-plastic models. Even compared to Slaanesh they were way behind.
There is no conspiracy around which models come out when. Khorne had new Bloodthirsters and the Deamonkin Codex with Age of Sigmar. Next, Tzeentch saw new Marines and AoS models along with Magnus. Now they're wrapping up Nurgle with a nice gross looking bow along with a AoS rule book + Deamons codex that is sure to have more fluffy rules for the other chaos gods as well. Their next target will be Slaanesh which will no doubt herald the arrival of Fulgrim + new Emp Children and Deamon models. After that the wheel will spin around and we'll get Khorne again. If the past is any indication, we'll see Slaanesh in 2018 and Khorne in 2019, which makes me sad as a World Eater player but thems the brakes. Oh plus we'll see a Thousand Sons codex within the next few months to finish them off, most likely with no new models or anything since they already got theirs.
I've mathammered Tzeentch and doesn't look so good.
If you hit on 4+ it equals to a -1 to hit 25% of times.
If you hit on 3+ it equals a -1 to hit 44% of times.
If you hit on 2+ it equals a -1 to hit 69% of times.
Though it shuts down the triggers on 6 only 3% of times.
Decent enough stats even at index level, already 2d weapons and a good amount of attacks, gives them a fair chance at being punchy depending on what we see the rest of the codex do.
We've had pics of two new foot Heralds, Beast(?), GUO. No Drone Herald, though. That's worrying. I suspect GW's mothballing of mounted CSM characters is a speedbump to adding the fast Nurgle Herald; 'you gave EC and WE and TS mounted characters, where's my rules for a flying DG guy?'.
The wording in the Slaanesh portion of the article implies that the Seekers' special ability is being changed. It's likely that inatead of advancing+charging they'll have an extra few inches added to both.
Which is nice. However, the issues Slaanesh has really isn't reaching opponents these days, its actually hurting them that's the issue. I wonder if there will he any attempts to up their punch. Failing to recognise that the flat armor pen of hellblades makes rending claws completely obsolete is the type of mistake I expect GW to make.
I don't like to assume. Although it does make sense. If Epidemius stays anything close to the same that could be a killer list with Crawlers and Drones too.
BlaxicanX wrote: It stands to reason that the de fact +1 strength buff for heralds was a stand-in and we'll be getting more God-appropriate buffs in the codex.
I don't mind the +1 strength on khorne and slaanesh stuff, but on Tzeentch it is just awful lol.
Fenris-77 wrote: I must be sleepy. Why do I care about giving the PC an extra strength? Or maybe you meant something else by 'buff'...
He's talking about the Nurgle locus. It's an okay buff, not totally sure it's worth it though.
Um, pardon? He said "Herald buffing ... Crawlers", which has since been clarified to mean he's assuming that the Herald's ability will change, which is reasonable. The locus is a fine bonus given that it's essentially free. Unless you mean not worth it to get enough Nurgle to activate the locus? if you mean the latter, it's about volume - if the locus is buffing, say, three crawlers and three bloat drones, then hell yeah it's worth it.
Fenris-77 wrote: I must be sleepy. Why do I care about giving the PC an extra strength? Or maybe you meant something else by 'buff'...
He's talking about the Nurgle locus. It's an okay buff, not totally sure it's worth it though.
Um, pardon? He said "Herald buffing ... Crawlers", which has since been clarified to mean he's assuming that the Herald's ability will change, which is reasonable. The locus is a fine bonus given that it's essentially free. Unless you mean not worth it to get enough Nurgle to activate the locus? if you mean the latter, it's about volume - if the locus is buffing, say, three crawlers and three bloat drones, then hell yeah it's worth it.
At this point we can only really talk about the locus buff as there has been no indication the heralds will start giving meaningful buffs to ranged shooting units from another codex.
The locus adds about .55 wounds to a crawler shooting at a T7, 3+ target with its mortar, 2 entropy cannons and a slugger. A heavy blight launcher drone (which I wouldn't rate anyway) gets less benefit when shooting at basically anything. Up to you if you think that's worth the cost of a herald. A unit of 4 plague drones (similarish cost) gets more than double that benefit against T7 3+. I don't think I'm far wrong on the numbers.
Interestingly, because of the nature of Nurgle having a lot of rerolls to wound the locus procs more when attacking higher toughness targets (ie you roll more 6s when you're rerolling everything that isn't a 6 than when you reroll only 1s or 1s and 2s), which also indicates its usefulness for daemons that reroll everything rather than just 1s.
He posted a number of times in the news and rumor thread. If he's to be believed, Exalted Flamers just got much, much better and as long as their points didn't jump then I'm a very happy man.
Codex Rumors from xxhikaru123Made (all unconfirmed):
Spoiler:
Daemons are still 5++.
god specific traits are the same.
Do note that most attacks even shooting are Strength User, so +strength buffs actually are worth something now.
+ Undivided +
Belakor - has access to Dark Hereticus (the only one who does)
Stratagems:
We get a deepstrike strategem:
* 1 CP for 8 PL and below
* 2 Cp for 9 PL and above.
* no other restrictions.
you cannot reroll saving throws but it gives a daemon unit +1 to invulnerable saves. No better than 3++.
when enemy psyker suffers perils of the warp, use this strategem, they take 2d3 MW instead of 1d3.
+ Khorne +
Bloodthirsters no change to pt
Insensate Rage BT have two attack profiles now. Second (new) S:U -2 1 dmg , make 2 hit roll instead of 1 if use this attack.
All BTs get a rule that for each unmodded hit roll of 6, they score a 2nd free hit.
Stratagems:
1CP Khorne. pick a banner, that unit charges 3D6 instead of 2D6.
Artifacts:
Khorne: (Mons only) - 4++ Deny 1 power in each enemy psychic phase.
Khorne: 1 model. Each time you make wound roll of 6+ fr friendly khorne daemon unit within 6" of bearer, can make another free attack.
+ Tzeentch +
LOC/Kairos drop 20-35.
Brimstone horrors are 6++, blues are 5++, pinks are 4++.
Changeling lost -1 to hit for 6+++ FNP.
Flamers are 12" range now
Exalted are 3 shots instead of D3.
Anything with screamers lost slashing talon but their attacks became Lamprey bite.
Eg. 2 slashing attacks 1 bite? now 3 bites.
Warlord Trait:
reroll 1s to wound in 9".
New Powers:
Tz:
WC6. Reroll a single dice roll later during ur turn.
WC5. Pick friendly tz daemon unit within 18". Until next psychic phase, +1 to wound roll.
WC8. nearest enemy model wihtin 12, that model's unit and every other unit (friend or foe) within 3' of that model , suffers d3 MW. Suffer D6MW, if power manifested with more than psychic roll of 12+.
Stratagems:
2CP Tz Strat. pick a char, 6" aura of reroll psychic test.
Artifacts:
Tz: 1 additional TZ power
Tz: +1 to smite cast
+ Nurgle +
Beast of Nurgle are 5 Wounds now , and if you try to Fall Back from them (1"), on a 4+, you do a MW.
New powers:
Nurgle:
Wc7. Roll D6 for every unit (excluding nurgle) within 7" of caster. 4+ D3 MW.
WC6. Pick enemy unit visible within 18". -1 Toughness.
WC6 Miasma of Pestilence same as DG contagion but targets Nurgle Daemon.
Stratagems:
1CP Nurgle. pick a unit with an icon before battle. during 1 fight phase. dmg characteristtics of a plaguesword carried by that unit increased to 2
Artifacts:
Nurgle: everytime bearer kills a model in fight phase while within 7' of a plaguebearer unit , on a 4+, add a PB to that unit.
+ Slaanesh +
New powers:
Slaanesh:
WC5. Select friendly slaanhesh daemon within 18". 6+++ FnP WC6. select enemy unit within 18 visible. Roll d6 for every model in that enemy unit. on a 6, 1 mw.
WC6. All enenmy unit -1 ld within 12 inch of psyker.
Stratagems:
1CP Slaanesh. pick slaanesh daemon unit, all units within 3inch of that -1Attack for that phase. (To a minimum of 1.)
Artifacts:
Slaanesh: 1x per game, start of phase, select enemy char within 12" roll 3d6, if exceed enemy char ld, it cannot do anything, and its abilities dont affect anything.
andysonic1 wrote: Beast of Nurgle are 5 Wounds now , and if you try to Fall Back from them (1"), on a 4+, you do a MW.
Abilities that feth with the hot garbage that is Fall Back are really important for an essentially melee army, which I'm pretty sure Daemons are still going to be, and are also distressingly rare in 8E. Am now curious how much of a bump going mono-god is going to be, since I'm considering shoving some Beasts into my Khorne army
Huh. Nurgle and Slaanesh getting Fall Back interference, then. Hopefully Fiends won’t get nerfed, I’ve had them hold down a Knight whilst my DP punches it to death.
Oh right, Fiends Converting up some wiry fast rage monsters might fit the bill more than bloated bounding rage monsters, and not sure if I'd rather lock a large target in combat or cuddle an infantry unit to death if it tries to fall back ...
Darkness is sweeping the 41st Millennium, and the mortal hordes of the Heretic Astartes are bolstered by legions of daemonic allies. Thanks to the Great Rift, the servants of the Chaos Gods have been pouring forth to devour reality in ever-greater numbers across the galaxy – so it’s about time they got a codex of their own! Codex: Chaos Daemons brings a raft of new ways to customise and play your Daemons army, offering particular rewards for those players who dedicate themselves to a single Chaos God.
While we’ve taken a look at the codex as a whole, this week, we’ll be looking into what each specific Chaos God can bring to the tabletop, starting with the Blood God, Khorne:
We’ve already looked at the Khornate Daemonic Locus, the aptly-named Locus of Rage, but it’s worth reiterating just how handy this ability is. Whether you’re looking to insert a deadly block of Bloodletters into the enemy frontlines, or you’ve got a tricky charge to make with a Bloodthirster, this helps you get your Daemons where they need to be as soon as possible.
Khorne armies also have some powerful artefacts on hand, ranging from deadly weaponry to some essential utility items. One particularly useful option is the Armour of Scorn; as well as upgrading the invulnerable save of a key Character, it’ll also help shore up your psychic defences against any cowards that dare use magic against a servant of the God of Murder!
Skullreaver, meanwhile, is quite possibly one of the deadliest weapons in the entire game. In the hands of a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, you’ll be able to carve through powerful Characters (even Daemon Primarchs of rival Chaos Gods) and enemy super-heavies with brutal efficiency.
Indeed, Greater Daemons of Khorne – or any Chaos God – have received a significant improvement in the new codex thanks to 24 (yes, 24!) Warlord Traits. For Khorne, you won’t want to overlook Oblivious to Pain, which provides an additional save against wounds, as well as forcing any enemy shooting at you to risk supercharging your favourite Character in the next turn:
Khorne Daemons may not be subtle, but they’re undeniably effective, whether you’re looking to dominate the battlefield with swarms of elite combat infantry or to grind skulls beneath the hooves of larger Daemons. You can pre-order your Chaos Daemons codex this weekend, while Start Collecting! Daemons of Khorne contains a great selection of models for you to get a headstart with.
The charge 3d6 strat for Khorne is nice but I see it more useful after the initial charges in the event you need to make some absurdly big charge with your remaining Bloodletters. Spending 3CP to put 3x20 Bloodletters in Deep Strike is very nice, not to mention you should still be able to put Heralds inside your Drop Pods. So you drop the Pod down, then drop in your entire army of Bloodletters, then they have re-rolling charges from the Herald and your Berzerkers that pop out of the Pod have a nice Bloodletter screen. Now your opponent has way too many threats in their face all at once. Currently being clarified.
There is still a lot that can go wrong with this strategy. Armies that have lots of board control can potentially negate your entire plan, and shooting armies will overwatch you to death (can be mitigated by charging one thing and then fanning out to tag other things, remember that the initial charge move doesn't follow consolidate move rules). Plus it's kind of...boring? IDK, I guess I'm so used to footing it up the board. I'll have to go back to the drawing board and see what can be seen.
Edit: I was actually thinking "one trick pony" and not "boring", but at the end of the day Khorne is about smashing your opponents face till they aint got no face no more, so I'm OK with this.
@andysonic1, how are you getting Heralds in a Drop Pod? They transport <LEGION> or <MARK OF CHAOS> INFANTRY. I don’t see anything in the Chaos Daemons list stating that allegiance keywords constitute a Mark.
Yeah you can't really pod a herald, but you really dont need to?? Just summon one, and then train one or 2 blood letters back to the herald to get into the aura for the charge buff/strength buff.
This FAQ from the Designers Commentary says that after the battle begins, the difference between keywords is gone, which allows Possessed to gain power from Heralds even when they do not have the <ALLEGIANCE> keyword, and thus allows Heralds (or any <INFANTRY> Deamon) to get into Drop Pods. Now, it is up for debate if this actually means they can START inside drop pods or if they can just hop into them in the middle of the game, but that really depends on what they mean by "once the battle begins". I feel that are just making sure you can't make lists that break the game.
Q: What is the difference between a
keyword and a Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction
keywords are used when building an army;
when Battle-forging an army, for instance,
you will often only be able to include units
in the same detachment if they share the
same Faction keyword. Also, if you are
playing a matched play game, you will need
to have an Army Faction – this is a Faction
keyword that is shared by all of the units
in your entire army (with the exception
of those that are Unaligned). Once the
battle has begun, there is no functional
difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword.
For example, when creating a Battle-forged army
for matched play, I take two Patrol Detachments;
the first contains only units with the Heretic
Astartes Faction keyword, and the second
contains only units with the Daemon Faction
keyword. My Army Faction is ‘Chaos’ because
this is a Faction keyword every unit in the entire
army shares.
Once the battle has begun, the distinction
between keywords and Faction keywords no
longer has any effect – both are used to interact
with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that
the Heretic Astartes Detachment contains
a unit of Possessed (which does not have the
Daemon Faction keyword, but does have the
Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to
replace their <Mark of Chaos> keyword
with Khorne. If the Daemon Detachment
contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability to ‘add
1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne
Daemons’ would also apply to the unit of
Possessed, as they have both the Khorne and
Daemon keywords
This pretty much eliminates the need to summon Heralds and / or Deamon Infantry but at the cost of the Pods, and allows Heralds to ride with your bois. Skulltaker + Herald + Kharn + Exalted Champ + 2x8 Berzerker units dropping down behind 60 Bloodletters was my crazy idea.
andysonic1 wrote: This FAQ from the Designers Commentary says that after the battle begins, the difference between keywords is gone, which allows Possessed to gain power from Heralds even when they do not have the <ALLEGIANCE> keyword, and thus allows Heralds (or any <INFANTRY> Deamon) to get into Drop Pods. Now, it is up for debate if this actually means they can START inside drop pods or if they can just hop into them in the middle of the game, but that really depends on what they mean by "once the battle begins". I feel that are just making sure you can't make lists that break the game.
Q: What is the difference between a
keyword and a Faction keyword?
A: The only real difference is that Faction
keywords are used when building an army;
when Battle-forging an army, for instance,
you will often only be able to include units
in the same detachment if they share the
same Faction keyword. Also, if you are
playing a matched play game, you will need
to have an Army Faction – this is a Faction
keyword that is shared by all of the units
in your entire army (with the exception
of those that are Unaligned). Once the
battle has begun, there is no functional
difference between a keyword and a
Faction keyword.
For example, when creating a Battle-forged army
for matched play, I take two Patrol Detachments;
the first contains only units with the Heretic
Astartes Faction keyword, and the second
contains only units with the Daemon Faction
keyword. My Army Faction is ‘Chaos’ because
this is a Faction keyword every unit in the entire
army shares.
Once the battle has begun, the distinction
between keywords and Faction keywords no
longer has any effect – both are used to interact
with abilities identically. Imagine, then, that
the Heretic Astartes Detachment contains
a unit of Possessed (which does not have the
Daemon Faction keyword, but does have the
Daemon keyword), and I choose for them to
replace their <Mark of Chaos> keyword
with Khorne. If the Daemon Detachment
contained a Herald of Khorne, his ability to ‘add
1 to the Strength characteristic of all Khorne
Daemons’ would also apply to the unit of
Possessed, as they have both the Khorne and
Daemon keywords
Hmm, this doesn’t fly with me. Agreed that you could probably persuade some rules lawyers that Skulltaker can jump into a MoK Rhino. But BRB says you declare what units are inside a transport when you set the transport up. Alpha Legion Stratagem FAQ confirms that this takes place before the battle had begun (therefore, Skulltaker or Herald’s Khornate alignment is not yet indistinguishable from Berzerkers’ MoK).
Also, Tyranid Codex FAQ confirms that you can’t (1) move reserves from one method of entry to another, and (2) you can’t place a unit in reserve unless unit or scenario rules permit. Standard Matched Play missions tend to not allow you to place any unit you like in reserve, the ability of a Dreadclaw (and the units that were already inside when the game began) to deep strike during the game comes from its own special ability.
So, even if it’s perfectly fine for, say, Changeling to embark into a TSDC, and even if it’s a scenario in which you can put Changeling in reserve, you can’t put it in reserve in the DC, nor can it migrate from footslogging reserve into the DC. I wouldn’t expect most rules lawyers to accept it, nor would I expect the loophole to remain arguable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could just put the Heralds on Juggernauts? That’ll probably enable aura distance on turn one. It’d avoid negotiations on the semantics as well.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm, this doesn’t fly with me. Agreed that you could probably persuade some rules lawyers that Skulltaker can jump into a MoK Rhino. But BRB says you declare what units are inside a transport when you set the transport up. Alpha Legion Stratagem FAQ confirms that this takes place before the battle had begun (therefore, Skulltaker or Herald’s Khornate alignment is not yet indistinguishable from Berzerkers’ MoK).
Also, Tyranid Codex FAQ confirms that you can’t (1) move reserves from one method of entry to another, and (2) you can’t place a unit in reserve unless unit or scenario rules permit. Standard Matched Play missions tend to not allow you to place any unit you like in reserve, the ability of a Dreadclaw (and the units that were already inside when the game began) to deep strike during the game comes from its own special ability.
So, even if it’s perfectly fine for, say, Changeling to embark into a TSDC, and even if it’s a scenario in which you can put Changeling in reserve, you can’t put it in reserve in the DC, nor can it migrate from footslogging reserve into the DC. I wouldn’t expect most rules lawyers to accept it, nor would I expect the loophole to remain arguable.
Rhinos only allow <Legion> Infantry inside, and Deamons cannot be World Eaters or any other Legion, so it would take some real convincing to allow Skulltaker into a Rhino. The Forward Operatives FAQ is the real kicker here since it implies that "deployment" is "before the battle begins".
I'm not sure what you mean regarding the Tyranid Codex FAQ since the Director's Commentary FAQ explains that it is possible for Deamon Infantry to get into the Pods. This has nothing to do with changing their location illegally, this is about keyword interactions allowing them to start the battle embarked. After the battle begins, for example, the rules on the Pod would change to "This model can transport 20 World Eater or Khorne Infantry models". The real question is if they can start in them, which is IMPLIED they cannot from the Forward Operatives FAQ. However, after the battle begins and keywords are all blended together, there's currently nothing stopping them from jumping in.
I'll concede the point (begin embarked) and shoot some emails to GW and Frontline Gaming.
Daemons have the same mark of chaos as chaos space marines in the chaos space marine and death guard codex. I would say that other index daemons also have a mark of chaos but it isnt spelled out explicitly, hopefully the codex will clarify.
So while you are right in in that it can be used that way. You are wrong in that stuff that called for <mark of khorne> or anything that is <xyz> must have originally been that way.
Here is an example for ynnari
Can any Ynnari unit embark on any Ynnari transport?
A: No. Whilst both units have gained the Ynnari
keyword, the Transport ability on the transport’s
datasheet does not change. So, for example, an Ynnari
Starweaver can still only transport ‘6 <Masque>
Infantry models’
IN that instance i could jsut make all ther <xyz> abilities in my army say ynnari and jump in the transports right?? but apparently i can't do that.
So if something has an <xyz> requirement the target hoping to fullfill that requirement would also need to have the same <xyz> requirement and have also chose the same keyword for that to work.
the ynnari example is pretty much a direct answer to what you are saying you are trying to do.
In the same way there are several answer that contradict waht you are trying to do for instnace:
Q: If I create an Astra Militarum
Regiment of my own and name them,
for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and
I then also create an Adeptus Astartes
Chapter of my own choosing, and also
call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the
abilities that work on the <Regiment>
and/or <Chapter> keywords now work
on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus
Astartes units?
A: No.
The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters,
etc. of your own creation is to personalise
your collections and not to enable players to
circumvent the restrictions on what abilities
affect what units. It is also not intended to
circumvent the restrictions on which units are
able to be included in the same Detachment.
It seems simple enough for me, no Heralds cannot deploy in Dreadclaws because they are placed in the Pod before the game starts, but they may embark later in the game if they share allegiance. Though that designers commentary has got me believing quite strongly that the new daemon strats may work with Mortarion. Looking forward to a deep striking Morty with a 3++ invun. I think you may have a hard time arguing that you can start a herald in a drop pod, because units are deployed inside the transports before the game begins and at that point faction keywords do matter.
Edit: Unless there is no rule that specifically stops cross faction transport jumping or FAQ?
That Eldar FAQ strongly implies that Faction Keywords continue to matter when they are specifically stated on a vehicle, which contradicts the Designer Commentary FAQ regarding Keyword interactions. So who the feth even knows what's going on anymore LOL
If Flamers truly do end up at 12" S5, Squads of 5 of them are going to be quite powerful. Keeps them just under the 9PL allowing you to deep strike them for 1CP.
Cephalobeard wrote: If Flamers truly do end up at 12" S5, Squads of 5 of them are going to be quite powerful. Keeps them just under the 9PL allowing you to deep strike them for 1CP.
andysonic1 wrote: That Eldar FAQ strongly implies that Faction Keywords continue to matter when they are specifically stated on a vehicle, which contradicts the Designer Commentary FAQ regarding Keyword interactions. So who the feth even knows what's going on anymore LOL
While i definitly think thier is always gonjna be some GW confusion.
I just think it's simply is a rule ask for something to be <XYZ> it's just got another layer in that, that thing mustb e <XYZ> and can't be just XYZ. Basicly transports want <mark of chaos>, so you pick <nurgle> then only <nurgle> stuff can get in, but Nurgle stuff can't.
Where as a rule that wants XYZ can work with <XYZ> and XYZ units. In this case heralds buff Nurgle units so <Nurgle> and Nurgle units can get buffed by it.
Cephalobeard wrote: If Flamers truly do end up at 12" S5, Squads of 5 of them are going to be quite powerful. Keeps them just under the 9PL allowing you to deep strike them for 1CP.
DS + burination in 1 turn.
YAASSSSSS PLEASE!
I got 15 of those buggers.
I bought 12 while they're still $20/3 on eBay, bringing me to 15. Seems like a solid investment, as 3 squads of 5 deepstriking is quite a bit of pain.
I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
actualy with a small price from the lord of change is pretty good when you do a point for point analyse of the durability of the model.
Currently the great unclean one durability wise is pretty great getting 5++/5+++ which is about a 4+ save on a pretty cheap frame. It jsut lacks in things to do when up close, but with a few more spells it starts to look pretty good. Aoe mortal wound on that fat body could get scary.
Lord of change with a 4++ is also pretty decent, a gain though out put wise it really doesn't do enough currently. Some stronger spells can make this a thing, and a small price drop will make very competive quite quickly.
The blood thirster is the only not so great one, its now got some more punch. It becomes fairly durable with the armor of scorn and oblivious to pain, but the other two greater demons are definitely the tougher ones.
Oh all of this is comparing to the durability of something like a leman russ which is the bare minimum of durability, and the hemlock being the most durable big thing you can bring the 3 greater demons i listed will be about as durable as a hemlock wraith fighter against guard and more so against space marines and the like.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
actualy with a small price from the lord of change is pretty good when you do a point for point analyse of the durability of the model.
Currently the great unclean one durability wise is pretty great getting 5++/5+++ which is about a 4+ save on a pretty cheap frame. It jsut lacks in things to do when up close, but with a few more spells it starts to look pretty good. Aoe mortal wound on that fat body could get scary.
Lord of change with a 4++ is also pretty decent, a gain though out put wise it really doesn't do enough currently. Some stronger spells can make this a thing, and a small price drop will make very competive quite quickly.
The blood thirster is the only not so great one, its now got some more punch. It becomes fairly durable with the armor of scorn and oblivious to pain, but the other two greater demons are definitely the tougher ones.
Oh all of this is comparing to the durability of something like a leman russ which is the bare minimum of durability, and the hemlock being the most durable big thing you can bring the 3 greater demons i listed will be about as durable as a hemlock wraith fighter against guard and more so against space marines and the like.
What about the keeper of secrets ?
It only has a 5++ and a mere 12 wounds it does only cost 223pts but that is 223 wasted points when it dies on turn 1 before getting to do anything (doesn't even have a good aura)
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
This is my concern for all greater daemons a 5++ that can be buffed to a 4++ just doesn't cut it with the amount of multi wound shooting out there. They also cost a bomb and don't seem worth it.
actualy with a small price from the lord of change is pretty good when you do a point for point analyse of the durability of the model.
Currently the great unclean one durability wise is pretty great getting 5++/5+++ which is about a 4+ save on a pretty cheap frame. It jsut lacks in things to do when up close, but with a few more spells it starts to look pretty good. Aoe mortal wound on that fat body could get scary.
Lord of change with a 4++ is also pretty decent, a gain though out put wise it really doesn't do enough currently. Some stronger spells can make this a thing, and a small price drop will make very competive quite quickly.
The blood thirster is the only not so great one, its now got some more punch. It becomes fairly durable with the armor of scorn and oblivious to pain, but the other two greater demons are definitely the tougher ones.
Oh all of this is comparing to the durability of something like a leman russ which is the bare minimum of durability, and the hemlock being the most durable big thing you can bring the 3 greater demons i listed will be about as durable as a hemlock wraith fighter against guard and more so against space marines and the like.
What about the keeper of secrets ?
It only has a 5++ and a mere 12 wounds it does only cost 223pts but that is 223 wasted points when it dies on turn 1 before getting to do anything (doesn't even have a good aura)
everything in the game can die turn 1 for the most part. Mortarian/ magnus the red can all die turn one and are more or less durable than the greater daemons... but those are used often in competive play.
Bah, I don;t really care about the Magnus/Morty thing (powerful as it is). I'm stoked about deepstriking Bloodletters. Lots of Bloodletters... ALL the Bloodletters! Muhuhahahaha!1!
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
Nope... my Thirster is going in mah list now.
I can... DS him Turn 1....
Or, DS say... 3 units of 5 flamers Turn 1... and let the Thirster mosey up the board.
Whatcha gunno do? Take care of the flamers in front of you? Or the Thirster that will be in range next Turn
Morty/Magnus doesn't even need to DS, as Demons can truly present awful target priorities to your opponent!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fenris-77 wrote: Bah, I don;t really care about the Magnus/Morty thing (powerful as it is). I'm stoked about deepstriking Bloodletters. Lots of Bloodletters... ALL the Bloodletters! Muhuhahahaha!1!
This!
I don't think folks appreciate how meta-busting the DS stratigem is going to be...
60 DS Bloodletters, 60 Walking Bloodletters, and maybe 8-10 Heralds on Jugger (or whatever 1000pts of characters). Just off the top of my head. That's what, 9 CMD points? Madness!
3d6 charge plus (maybe) +1 from the icon on the DS units?! Whoo-whee!!
I had army plans, but Khorne may have just slipped back to the top of my to-do pile.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm still afraid that Bloodthirsters are going to continue to be a bullseye with wings, even with the relic options. I hope they get either more wounds than the index version, or a significant price drop. If that leak from earlier is accurate, they will get neither, which means my big red rage demon is going to continue to guard my shelf.
they can get an artefact with 4++ and 1 free DTW ability. not bad eh?
A warlord trait (if you dont care about ur warlord being the BT), 6+++ FnP , if you pass the fnp save, you can reroll all hit and wounds until end of next turn.
So deepstriking BT with 3+/4++/6+++ and 1 dtw, with rerollable charge?
two new addons
Secondary weapon mode (insensate Rage) : S: user AP-2 1 dmg - Make 2 hit rolls instead of 1 for each attack made with this weapon.
Ability (all BTs) : Every hit on 6, generate two hits.
I'm wanting to a make nurgle./tzeentch/khorne work in an elemetnal style army, but i'm unsure.
DS alot of stuff seem cool, but it's quickly countered by enemy scouting units. who will block off DS routes. So is Daemon DSing gets good, scouting units can quickly rise to counter.
From there our other turn 1 damage option is something like psykic. Defenity a strong option, but on the nurgle side you really need to get close, and from the tzeetch side you have to get off hard spell and have a limited arsenal.
So i think a beta strike force might be the best bet for chaos daemons??? I also think summoning might be good to keep scouting units in check and provide decent options. the summoning option also lends it's self to the beta strike, idea as you'll want a turn to get close.
From there the list i'd go with would be something like:
Supreme command (tzneetch)
3x Herald of Tzneetch on chariot
Supreme command (khorne)
Herald on jugger
2x foot herald
I think this with the plague bears up from tanking, nurglings pushing back scouts and deep strikers, while chariots provide a second layer of durability. This way you can get a turn to move up, and then summon.
Leaves space to summon about 800pts of stuff, and lets you DS a GUO and throw miasma on it for protection. With enough summoning to summon ~4 20 man squads of the 3 lesser daemons depending on the targets you might be facing.
ANywho random shot in the dark. Not sure how to make it rather competive otherwise?? as the tricks availible to the daemons seem easily countered outside of something like this, and leaning heavily on our more durable options to make a more consistant list.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Morty/Magnus don't need deepstrike? DDDDDDDDD
How about having 2 of the most powerful models in the game always attack first and be immune turn 1.
you sure? start 2nd and dont be afraid to be wipped out from the table, then deepstrike cast psy powers and warptime them in enemy face....
yes misread ;D
And works better with deathshrouds, deep strike him 9" away 1st turn and his bodyguard, he should survive also if cant get a successfull charge.
And it looks like they've also updated the typo from the Skullreaver from yesterday
skullreaver- melee - s+3 ap -4 d6Dmg, rerolls failed wound rolls when targeting titanic models. each wound roll of 6+ causes D3 mortal wounds in addition to normal dmg.
Captyn_Bob wrote: So the tzeentch faction focus matches the leaks on war of sigmar exactly so we can say they are accurate now.
Robes could make a LOC good?
Those leaks are from here. From Dakka. Lol. The guys been posting for two days.
Captyn_Bob wrote: So the tzeentch faction focus matches the leaks on war of sigmar exactly so we can say they are accurate now.
Robes could make a LOC good?
Again the greater daemons are not bad because of durability. In alot of ways the greater daemons durability wise are point for point pretty on par with the daemon primary. Where there is a distinction is damage out put and the ability to put out turn 1 damage.
As such the bloodthirster from what I've scene is up there as he can spend 4 CP to get a reasonable turn 1 charge off and has gotten a bit of a damage buff.
Safely the GPU and Loc have to rely on spells to get any good early damage in and thus have to survive 1 or 2 turns worth of fire before they can get in there and start doing stuff on melee.
Captyn_Bob wrote: So the tzeentch faction focus matches the leaks on war of sigmar exactly so we can say they are accurate now.
Robes could make a LOC good?
Again the greater daemons are not bad because of durability. In alot of ways the greater daemons durability wise are point for point pretty on par with the daemon primary. Where there is a distinction is damage out put and the ability to put out turn 1 damage.
As such the bloodthirster from what I've scene is up there as he can spend 4 CP to get a reasonable turn 1 charge off and has gotten a bit of a damage buff.
Safely the GPU and Loc have to rely on spells to get any good early damage in and thus have to survive 1 or 2 turns worth of fire before they can get in there and start doing stuff on melee.
May I ask where you are seeing that a BT can do a reliable turn 1 charge off 4 CP? Im aware you can deep strike him but I believe the 3d6 charge strategum is limited to units with "banners". Still able to attempt a regular charge of course
akwing00 wrote: May I ask where you are seeing that a BT can do a reliable turn 1 charge off 4 CP? Im aware you can deep strike him but I believe the 3d6 charge strategum is limited to units with "banners". Still able to attempt a regular charge of course
I'm not seeing that immediately either, but reasonable to assume 2 CP Deep Strike with a Locus of Rage (charge re-roll) as a fairly manageable first turn charge, especially if you're willing to burn a CP to re-roll a die.
Heavy Support 3xRenegade Heavy Weapon Teams (3xLascannon each)
Battalion detachment HQ Skarbrand
Khorne Herald
Troops 3xBloodletters
Super Heavy Detachment Greater Brass Scorpion
In total, 15CP. You have a lot of troops to hold objectives, some faster spawn to grab objectives and 9 Lascannons for some ranged fire power. The Brass Scorpion is a massive fire magnet and heavy hitting (you can also make the Brass Scorpion a CSM detachment to access CSM stratagems). The meat of this list is Skarbrand and his Bloodletters who will of course deep strike in: if they all drop within range of him, they have +1S and +2A on the charge, don't take moral and they force whatever they are in combat with to stay in combat with them. On top of that the new Daemon rules mean they re-roll their charges on that all important first turn when they come down.
AND, depending on stratagem wording, the Scorpion might also be able to come barrelling out of the sky into your opponants face and with its 3d6" charge it's going to make it into combat.
I'm more of a CSM player than a Daemon player but these leaked rules are getting me excited, what do we think to the list?
akwing00 wrote: May I ask where you are seeing that a BT can do a reliable turn 1 charge off 4 CP? Im aware you can deep strike him but I believe the 3d6 charge strategum is limited to units with "banners". Still able to attempt a regular charge of course
I'm not seeing that immediately either, but reasonable to assume 2 CP Deep Strike with a Locus of Rage (charge re-roll) as a fairly manageable first turn charge, especially if you're willing to burn a CP to re-roll a die.
Yeah i was mistaken I head read the leaked thing wrong.
So I correct the statement to all the greater demons being abit meh because of reliability.
And while i like deep strike charge strategies of bloodletters they are easily screen due to not flying and having to come in 9" away from enemies units. Meaning one good unit of scouts can make that strategy weak.
akwing00 wrote: Do we know what units/models can get the locus of rage?
My assumption would be all Khorne Daemon characters since they talk about the Locus of Trickery being used on a Lord of Change, it's probably safe to say that the Locus of Rage will be available to Bloodthirsters.
Bloodletters with instruments deepstriking and charging is still pretty neat. Apparently skull cannons dropped 47 points, so I like the idea of lots of blood letters deepstriking while ur decently fast moving units move up.
Really hope Skarbrand dropped in points or boosted in some way
What does "tzeench model only" mean in Impossible Robe? Does it mean model from this book with Tzeench keyword or any model with tzeench keyword?
So i can give DP / Changeling / LOC 3++ right now...
Captyn_Bob wrote: So the tzeentch faction focus matches the leaks on war of sigmar exactly so we can say they are accurate now.
Robes could make a LOC good?
An interesting thing about the robes is that it is very unlikely to be slain from using it's built-in reroll. Empherial form adds 1 to your save roll. So in the same way plasma cannot overheat with a net +1 to hit, you can't be slain by rerolling a 1 on the robes. This assumes no changes to empherial form from the index.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: What does "tzeench model only" mean in Impossible Robe? Does it mean model from this book with Tzeench keyword or any model with tzeench keyword?
So i can give DP / Changeling / LOC 3++ right now...
It's effectively a relic/strat, given how GW treated cross-pollination between Nids and GSC, it's unlikely to be useful for anything other than a Tzeentch Daemon model from the codex.
However, the cloak on a Herald doesn't suck, but probably won't see the field too often. If you were going to field an LoC, I would only field it with the cloak, given the points you're investing in a model that can be focus fired easily.
Honestly, might be overkill, you could have a Herald with him and he could provide things like Locus (which would affect Magnus), but Fires doesn't really do anything for him, Boon of Tzeentch isn't bad (esp if you get the +1 T). However, you probably won't be able to use any daemonic stratagems on him directly, which limits the synergy really to unit abilities and psychic powers.
Plague Flail 7" Assault 3 S User AP-3 2 Dmg. Can be fired within 1" of an enemy unit and can target enemy unit within 1" of friendly unit. Excess damage is not lost, spillsover.
Bileblade Strength User AP-3 D3 Dmg . Reroll Failed Wounds.
Bilesword Strength +1 AP-3 D6Dmg. Reroll Failed Wounds.
Doomsday Bell. Str +1 AP-1 D3 Dmg.
Cast 2 Powers . Deny 1 Powers. Knows smite and 2 from Nurgle Discipline.
May Replace bilesword with doomsday bell.
May replace plague flail with bileblade.
Putrid Offering (bileblade): Suffer 1 Wound (Can be FNP) , add 1 to a psychic test before rolling .
Reverberating Summons (doomsday bell): Can summon on 4D6 instead of 3D6. At start of your turn, Roll D6 for every Nurgle Daemon unit within 7" of a GUO with Doomsday Bell, on a 4+ return a single slain model to that unit.
Crushing Bulk: Roll D6 at end of charge, on a 4+ do 1 MW to an enemy unit within 1".
Greater Daemon: Friendly Nurgle Daemon unit within 6" can use GUO's Ld (10) instead of their own.
Just over 300+ points.
Honestly, might be overkill, you could have a Herald with him and he could provide things like Locus (which would affect Magnus), but Fires doesn't really do anything for him, Boon of Tzeentch isn't bad (esp if you get the +1 T). However, you probably won't be able to use any daemonic stratagems on him directly, which limits the synergy really to unit abilities and psychic powers.
LoC also has 16W 3++, 2 spells +2 to cast and okay melee. For it's points i think it is cool. Need to see it's changes in Daemons codex.
Honestly, might be overkill, you could have a Herald with him and he could provide things like Locus (which would affect Magnus), but Fires doesn't really do anything for him, Boon of Tzeentch isn't bad (esp if you get the +1 T). However, you probably won't be able to use any daemonic stratagems on him directly, which limits the synergy really to unit abilities and psychic powers.
LoC also has 16W 3++, 2 spells +2 to cast and okay melee. For it's points i think it is cool. Need to see it's changes in Daemons codex.
or it cost lot less or not any reason take it instead of magnus
ArtyomTrityak wrote: LoC also has 16W 3++, 2 spells +2 to cast and okay melee. For it's points i think it is cool. Need to see it's changes in Daemons codex.
No doubt, I've been looking at Fateweaver and the LoC precisely because of that. But it's always good to have the economy model available.
The real winner might honestly be Pink Horrors, a 30 man squad with Flames looks to be able to pump out an amazing amount of damage.
Play what you wanna play, enjoy what you wanna play.
) with my multiple daemon units. Plauge marines would wander up the table shooting away at whatever took their fancy, and then when the time was right, plaguebearers would spring into life and charge to tie up annoying units.
He said "Herald buffing ... Crawlers", which has since been clarified to mean he's assuming that the Herald's ability will change, which is reasonable. The locus is a fine bonus given that it's essentially free. Unless you mean not worth it to get enough Nurgle to activate the locus? if you mean the latter, it's about volume - if the locus is buffing, say, three crawlers and three bloat drones, then hell yeah it's worth it.
