ArtyomTrityak wrote: It might be cool to run 20 Pinks + 10 Blues (-> Brimstomes -> dead ) . But if someone charge you you're just stuck...
You aren't really looking for them to survive so much as appear, dump a huge number of wounds on some targets, then probably die. Given the deep strike stratagem and Flames, you could probably pull off some pretty solid first turn deep strike damage, deep into your enemy's backfield.
blackmage wrote: i m sure will be worded "if you roll 1 you are slain regardless modificators" or is a no sense rule.
Maybe after the 2 week FAQ, but the preview today doesn't say before modifiers.
a roll of 1 is always a failure regardless any modifiers as rulebook say, no need of faq.
Yes, but read the rule for the impossible robes. It says that if the reroll results in a 1, the bearer is immediately slain - not if you fail to make the save. As you are adding 1 to the roll a natural 1 on the dice becomes a result of 2 which then doesn't trigger the condition to be slain.
Heah, 9 Flamers will be nice to clear some blobs (S4 str is nice), for 2CP it might worth it.
Also we can cast Flickering Flames (+1 to wound) new power on them so they might be devastating.
Heah, 9 Flamers will be nice to clear some blobs (S4 str is nice), for 2CP it might worth it.
Also we can cast Flickering Flames (+1 to wound) new power on them so they might be devastating.
If it holds true that most shooting attacks are now S:User and you can get a Herald in range for S5 and cast Flickering Flames for +1 to wound they'll be quite nasty against a lot of stuff.
No it isn't. As soon as you go from 3 to 4, the PL jumps from 5 to 9, putting it in 2CP territory. That's how PL works in relation to undersized units: you always round up.
No it isn't. As soon as you go from 3 to 4, the PL jumps from 5 to 9, putting it in 2CP territory. That's how PL works in relation to undersized units: you always round up.
Flamers base S4. And just run 6 Flamers for 1 CP, they're still 8 PL at 6.
No it isn't. As soon as you go from 3 to 4, the PL jumps from 5 to 9, putting it in 2CP territory. That's how PL works in relation to undersized units: you always round up.
I'm willing to believe you, but that sounds dumb. Everything about PL is dumb. Doesn't indicate a difference in points until that point. 8th is odd.
No it isn't. As soon as you go from 3 to 4, the PL jumps from 5 to 9, putting it in 2CP territory. That's how PL works in relation to undersized units: you always round up.
Flamers base S4. And just run 6 Flamers for 1 CP, they're still 8 PL at 6.
Now that's an important note. Must have been lengthy confusion about their strength, but the PL change is definitely good.
Okay guys so inspire me on the others like khorne or nurgle.
I'm excited for tzneetch. Lrods of change are fast enoough and have strong enough spells that they can do some cool stuff turn 1, and even bringing 2 or 3 LoCs seem worth while with smites or various spells. While flamers DS are strong, and even summoning or DSing in pink horrors will be very strong thanks to +1sr and +1 wound buffs that can make them very powerful as anti horde tools.
next up i can see splashes of khorne being strong, but whole armies seem tough to justify. DSing in blood letters with a blood thirster or herald on jugger to provide locus seem like the ycan make good charges turn 1. However, i think these DSs are easier to counter with scout due to not being ranged attacks, but instead charges on none flying models. So bubble wrapped vehicles won't have much to worry about.
Nurgle is definitly durable and with points drops plague drones look very tough. However the low mobility and lack of range on the GUO means he's almsot always gonna spend a turn twittling his thumbs even if you DS him in??? Nurgling will always be nice to have for scout and counter DS. However, nurgle seem to rely heavily on surviving a turn or two of shooting before they start playing the game, and that seem a bit like a none starter?? The coolest nurgle tricks see mto be to have a GUO drop down with a herald some where else on the table to Miama him, and hope the GUO stays survive the shooting phase to use his close range spells and melee attacks and very powerful flail. Plague drones also seem VERY durable??
I never much like slanesh.
Anywho can anyone dispell my self made funk?? IS there more there from what we know so far??
Daemonettes are still apparently just "bloodletters but gak" in the codex, especially with the DS rules giving BL's a form of transportation. The alleged rumor of ALL the Slaanesh herald's mount options going away pretty much leaves the entire god dead in the water. There is nothing they have to offer that can't really be found elsewhere in the codex. I suppose if I wanted to go mono-god I might take a single squad or two of seekers just for disruption, but that's really about it.
The way seems to look like a strong Nurgle core with Tzeentch shooting elements and Khorne/Slaanesh specialist units to use as a scalpel.
blackmage wrote: i m sure will be worded "if you roll 1 you are slain regardless modificators" or is a no sense rule.
Maybe after the 2 week FAQ, but the preview today doesn't say before modifiers.
a roll of 1 is always a failure regardless any modifiers as rulebook say, no need of faq.
Yes, but read the rule for the impossible robes. It says that if the reroll results in a 1, the bearer is immediately slain - not if you fail to make the save. As you are adding 1 to the roll a natural 1 on the dice becomes a result of 2 which then doesn't trigger the condition to be slain.
no you dont add the +1 to re roll, you roll 1 and is a fail regardless any modifier you can use. Use ur brain, if were like you said would be no reason to add that line to impossible robe rules, cause you would never roll a 1 on saving throws with Tzeentch.
If the math is correct, the pink blob has an advantage, being slightly lower in point cost but having many more wounds and longer range. Of course once you go down below 20 it's gonna be a different story. On the other hand having dealt the damage needed for that (especially with some splitting reserves) the flamers would have died already.
Flamers still get autohit on overwatch though, and won't be shut down by melee. And should do a lot better against enemies like Eldar with the -1 / -2 to hit shenanigans.
knas wrote: If the math is correct, the pink blob has an advantage, being slightly lower in point cost but having many more wounds and longer range. Of course once you go down below 20 it's gonna be a different story. On the other hand having dealt the damage needed for that (especially with some splitting reserves) the flamers would have died already.
Flamers still get autohit on overwatch though, and won't be shut down by melee. And should do a lot better against enemies like Eldar with the -1 / -2 to hit shenanigans.
Flamers would also be very good in hunting Flyers. They auto hit and 9 of them will do about 8 wounds to a hemlock equivalent.
On the other hand you could very well use screamers for that too.
knas wrote: If the math is correct, the pink blob has an advantage, being slightly lower in point cost but having many more wounds and longer range. Of course once you go down below 20 it's gonna be a different story. On the other hand having dealt the damage needed for that (especially with some splitting reserves) the flamers would have died already.
Flamers still get autohit on overwatch though, and won't be shut down by melee. And should do a lot better against enemies like Eldar with the -1 / -2 to hit shenanigans.
Flamers would also be very good in hunting Flyers. They auto hit and 9 of them will do about 8 wounds to a hemlock equivalent.
On the other hand you could very well use screamers for that too.
If Screamers are still WS4, that's probably not nearly as reliable.
knas wrote: If the math is correct, the pink blob has an advantage, being slightly lower in point cost but having many more wounds and longer range. Of course once you go down below 20 it's gonna be a different story. On the other hand having dealt the damage needed for that (especially with some splitting reserves) the flamers would have died already.
Flamers still get autohit on overwatch though, and won't be shut down by melee. And should do a lot better against enemies like Eldar with the -1 / -2 to hit shenanigans.
Flamers would also be very good in hunting Flyers. They auto hit and 9 of them will do about 8 wounds to a hemlock equivalent.
On the other hand you could very well use screamers for that too.
If Screamers are still WS4, that's probably not nearly as reliable.
Vs Hemlock T6 3+:
9 Flamers
5.25 wounds
9 Screamers
11.24 wounds (not taking into account the brutal overwatch of the hemlock)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh I forgot the 6+++. In this case the flamers do about 4-5 and the Screamers about 9-10. Still about double...
The strength you are describing is only valid with a Herald, I guess!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Using your values you end up doing 4.1 wounds.
I already calculated that the Blue fire just hits on 5+, because you will probably have to move with the heavy weapon and get -1 to hit for the "Hard to hit" rule.
If you do not have to move before, you will do 4.7 damage.
Bah, maybe? Exalted Flamers are supposed to have an increased STR over normal flamers, to S5 Base, I think? Maybe not, rumors are slightly scattered as it stands, we'll have a better overall picture soon enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Astmeister wrote: Using your values you end up doing 4.1 wounds.
I already calculated that the Blue fire just hits on 5+, because you will probably have to move with the heavy weapon and get -1 to hit for the "Hard to hit" rule.
If you do not have to move before, you will do 4.7 damage.
Don't forget, Exalteds are BS3 iirc, so it's 3s normally, 4s when you move, either way that's not too shabby. Thanks for indulging me.
blackmage wrote: i m sure will be worded "if you roll 1 you are slain regardless modificators" or is a no sense rule.
Maybe after the 2 week FAQ, but the preview today doesn't say before modifiers.
a roll of 1 is always a failure regardless any modifiers as rulebook say, no need of faq.
Yes, but read the rule for the impossible robes. It says that if the reroll results in a 1, the bearer is immediately slain - not if you fail to make the save. As you are adding 1 to the roll a natural 1 on the dice becomes a result of 2 which then doesn't trigger the condition to be slain.
no you dont add the +1 to re roll, you roll 1 and is a fail regardless any modifier you can use. Use ur brain, if were like you said would be no reason to add that line to impossible robe rules, cause you would never roll a 1 on saving throws with Tzeentch.
This isn't true for one or is called the impossible robe.
Second there are abilities that can reduce your invulns like kind that could make that matter.
BlaxicanX wrote: The alleged rumor of ALL the Slaanesh herald's mount options going away pretty much leaves the entire god dead in the water.
Could you point me in the direction of the source?
The herald on a steed is the last model I need to make for my 1500 points, I was going to convert it today. This has me thinking I don't need to. But even if there's no option for a herald on a steed in the new codex, can't I just use the one from the index?
You can still use the index rules for them like you can for all the other things that don't get moved into the codex.
It is more sad that supposedly somethings aren't getting changed at all, no point decreases or buffs.
Bloodletters are outright better than daemonettes now, daemonette speed advantage is completely negated by khorne armies ability to deep strike 9 away with 3d6 re-rollerble charges.
Something slaanesh armies can't replicate because they don't have the passive re-roll aura or the 3d6 charges they are also weaker/have inferior dps once they reach combat :/
Yeah considering it's only 1cp for a full BL squad and 1cp for the herald you might as well just dump them both in. The Herald will be nice for taking out any hardened targets your BL's (miraculously) can't hurt anyway.
Astmeister wrote: But you need to have a character in 6 inch of the Bloodletters for the reroll.
deep strike an herald and the letters...
Atleast 4 cp to get 300 points of your army some where. Also it countered by scount. Still damn good, but getting counter by scouts so easily feels pretty bsd.
While I do think slaannesh is meh (I am very bias against them). Seekers in a slaannesh are are just as fast as ever still getting to advance and charge, and now they get a reroll on top of what they ad. So they can more reliable make those turn one charges, and they arent countered by scouts. But they do have to start on the table fearing enemy shooting.
mmimzie wrote: Atleast 4 cp to get 300 points of your army some where. Also it countered by scount. Still damn good, but getting counter by scouts so easily feels pretty bsd.
If it's the right situation and combo, the amount of CP I spend on the first turn is irrelevant. I'd happily dump all my CP on turn 1 if I thought it was useful, without even thinking about it. I've easily dumped 5-6 CP first turn to get things in position, to get the right powers off, to insure the right target dies.
First turn is important (whether you go first or second), spend the CP to make it right.
Astmeister wrote: But you need to have a character in 6 inch of the Bloodletters for the reroll.
deep strike an herald and the letters...
Atleast 4 cp to get 300 points of your army some where. Also it countered by scount. Still damn good, but getting counter by scouts so easily feels pretty bsd.
While I do think slaannesh is meh (I am very bias against them). Seekers in a slaannesh are are just as fast as ever still getting to advance and charge, and now they get a reroll on top of what they ad. So they can more reliable make those turn one charges, and they arent countered by scouts. But they do have to start on the table fearing enemy shooting.
They only get to Advance and Charge while in range of the Locus though, and given the codex has removed all mounted Slaanesh Heralds you're stuck deep striking a one (or KoS I suppose...) unless you use the Index.
mmimzie wrote: Atleast 4 cp to get 300 points of your army some where. Also it countered by scount. Still damn good, but getting counter by scouts so easily feels pretty bsd.
If it's the right situation and combo, the amount of CP I spend on the first turn is irrelevant. I'd happily dump all my CP on turn 1 if I thought it was useful, without even thinking about it. I've easily dumped 5-6 CP first turn to get things in position, to get the right powers off, to insure the right target dies.
First turn is important (whether you go first or second), spend the CP to make it right.
I don't disagree with you. If you read my comment its still damn good. I'm just saying they can do the slaannesh thing with 4 cp and only a small part of your army.
Slaannesh can have a full army of seekers charging you fron accross the table turn one (all be it with less damage out put). Whilr you also have all your cp for other stuff.
Both have different situations that can make them not work. Depending on your deployments. If your oppents deploys way back your seeker won't get to move far enough accross the table to pounce, and the long charge can get easier with some deployment maps.
While the thorne on can very quickly be countered by just about any form of accounting.
Agreed, although if the rumor about their relic is correct, I may find a way to squeeze a Slaaneshi Herald in somewhere.
Rumor: Slaanesh: 1x per game, start of phase, select enemy char within 12″ roll 3d6, if exceed enemy char ld, it cannot do anything, and its abilities don’t affect anything.
blackmage wrote: i m sure will be worded "if you roll 1 you are slain regardless modificators" or is a no sense rule.
Maybe after the 2 week FAQ, but the preview today doesn't say before modifiers.
a roll of 1 is always a failure regardless any modifiers as rulebook say, no need of faq.
Yes, but read the rule for the impossible robes. It says that if the reroll results in a 1, the bearer is immediately slain - not if you fail to make the save. As you are adding 1 to the roll a natural 1 on the dice becomes a result of 2 which then doesn't trigger the condition to be slain.
no you dont add the +1 to re roll, you roll 1 and is a fail regardless any modifier you can use. Use ur brain, if were like you said would be no reason to add that line to impossible robe rules, cause you would never roll a 1 on saving throws with Tzeentch.
This isn't true for one or is called the impossible robe.
Second there are abilities that can reduce your invulns like kind that could make that matter.
Exactly this. It's similar wording to over charging plasma. If you have a net +1 modifier then any rolls of 1 get buffed to 2 and don't trigger the rule even though a 1 is always considered a fail for both shooting and saves.
We can still use index profiles for anything not in the codex so we still have access to the slaanesh mounted heralds.
Even then it is probably be better to deep strike the herald into position to pass on the advance and charge buff (assuming seeker lost the ability to do this independently)
3rdlegion wrote: Slaanesh got the shaft... ironically or perhaps not.
I would prefer to deepstrike the Herald in.
Seekers losing the advance and charge ability makes the lack of a mounted Herald option to confer this ability a doubly blow... oh the irony haha
They will likely go down in pts if they lose the inherent advance and charge. This means we can just deep strike a herald into position for them to regain it while also receiving the crucial +1 STR. We haven’t lost the mounts any profile not updated means you still use index.
I really like how this codex seems to very focused on synergies. Do DS Bloodletters have issues with bubble wrap? Yes. Are Tzeentch demons now better at popping bubble wrap? Also yes. That's not a lot of help for mono-god players, but I think the codex will reward canny, multi-god list building in a pretty big way.
That relic alone should mean we see Slaanesh in a lot of lists.
Fenris-77 wrote: I really like how this codex seems to very focused on synergies. Do DS Bloodletters have issues with bubble wrap? Yes. Are Tzeentch demons now better at popping bubble wrap? Also yes. That's not a lot of help for mono-god players, but I think the codex will reward canny, multi-god list building in a pretty big way.
That relic alone should mean we see Slaanesh in a lot of lists.
I agree.
Also it is very one dimensional to just play purely mono god demons. With most of them you only have one unit choice in each slot (troops, heavy support etc.). I do not think this is an interesting way to play demons, if you for example just play a list with 80+ Horrrors.
I like mono-god lists better when they are Marine/Demon, then at least you have some variety. I can see Worldeaters with a Bloodletter bomb being a lot of fun for example. I was initially thinking just knorne but i many expand my plan and do a whole mixed demon army once I've had a look at the codex.
Fenris-77 wrote: I like mono-god lists better when they are Marine/Demon, then at least you have some variety. I can see Worldeaters with a Bloodletter bomb being a lot of fun for example. I was initially thinking just knorne but i many expand my plan and do a whole mixed demon army once I've had a look at the codex.
I have too many plans.
Same here. :-D
I might go for Alpha Legion + Tzeentch Demons.
As a practical side to the Horror split rule, how do people manage the book keeping? It seems to me that subtracting 5 points here, 3 points there from your reserves is cumbersome. The best I've come up with is to have my list in Battlescribe and add the horrors that are split when they split.
Does anyone have a more transparent way of doing it?
3rdlegion wrote: Slaanesh got the shaft... ironically or perhaps not.
I would prefer to deepstrike the Herald in.
Seekers losing the advance and charge ability makes the lack of a mounted Herald option to confer this ability a doubly blow... oh the irony haha
They will likely go down in pts if they lose the inherent advance and charge. This means we can just deep strike a herald into position for them to regain it while also receiving the crucial +1 STR. We haven’t lost the mounts any profile not updated means you still use index.
Hah! Nope. Apparently, nothing Slaanesh went down in cost, the exalted chariot that went up 8 pts for some reason. But fear not GW will be along shortly to tell us how awesome these changes are. Sure we can use the Index until they invalidate it at some future date. We all know this is coming, and this new codex is going to be with us for years. I'm steamed that they didn't do anything with the chariots, not that they ever do. I guess we can assume they've sold enough of those. A relic or stratagem that let us rend on a 4+ sure would have been nice. Literally, anything improvement in combat power would have been welcome.
So in regards to the deepstrike stratgem - we're still limited by the fact that we can only play a strategem once per phase right? The option of DS'ing mobs of bloodletters in the same turn is off the table correct?
eternalxfl wrote: So in regards to the deepstrike stratgem - we're still limited by the fact that we can only play a strategem once per phase right? The option of DS'ing mobs of bloodletters in the same turn is off the table correct?
Except that you'd have to use the stratagem during setup, so you could apply it to multiple units.
eternalxfl wrote: So in regards to the deepstrike stratgem - we're still limited by the fact that we can only play a strategem once per phase right? The option of DS'ing mobs of bloodletters in the same turn is off the table correct?
Except that you'd have to use the stratagem during setup, so you could apply it to multiple units.
Wasn't aware that it was used before the game - where can this be found?
eternalxfl wrote: So in regards to the deepstrike stratgem - we're still limited by the fact that we can only play a strategem once per phase right? The option of DS'ing mobs of bloodletters in the same turn is off the table correct?
Except that you'd have to use the stratagem during setup, so you could apply it to multiple units.
Wasn't aware that it was used before the game - where can this be found?
Use this strategem during deployment. If you spend 1 CP to set up one of your Daemon units that has a Power Rating of 8 or less in the warp instead of placing it on the battlefield. If you spend 2 CP, you can choose a Daemon unit that has a Power Rating of 9 or more instead. At the end of any of your movement phase that unit can tear its way into reality - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from enemy models.
Definitely hand to hand focused, the immediate one that jumps out is your Warlord subtracting an attack from all non-vehicle units within 6" and the 1CP strat that does the same thing for all units within 3" means you can very safely assault a lot of units without fear of them hitting back.
Obviously that doesn't address falling back out of combat and getting shot to hell, but it's very interesting.
Warhammer TV live just confirmed you can deep strike the primarchs, which opens the door for every other unit with the Chaos God of your choice keyword and the Deamon keyword to deep strike. Deamonkin lists just got way more viable and fluffy.
andysonic1 wrote: Warhammer TV live just confirmed you can deep strike the primarchs, which opens the door for every other unit with the Chaos God of your choice keyword and the Deamon keyword to deep strike. Deamonkin lists just got way more viable and fluffy.
Which is pretty cool means daemons and marked units can expand all of the chaos daemons detachment and such. Hopwfully. That is depending on if they can be used to fill out the detachment??
For instance to gain the detachment bonuses the detachment could require "mark" and daemons. The primarch while they have the daemons keywords, they lack the daemons faction keyword. Because if the daemons requirements for forming a detachment are mark daemons than you won't get to put said primarch in the detachment.
This basicly means you have to make a more tax detachment that is separate to include one or both primarch or any of the can daemons stuff you want to bring in your daemons force.
So now we know we can abuse the system to high hell... Make your bets! How long until the stratagem gets either clamped down on with new restrictions or nerfed into the ground?
mrhappyface wrote: So now we know we can abuse the system to high hell... Make your bets! How long until the stratagem gets either clamped down on with new restrictions or nerfed into the ground?
2 weeks. They already said that after every codex release there will be a faq / Errata after 2 weeks for balancing. After that you have to wait for the 6 month "fixes".
This doesn't effect me all that much, I don't have magnus or mortarion, but I was thinking about it. Now it's a back burner idea.
mrhappyface wrote: So now we know we can abuse the system to high hell... Make your bets! How long until the stratagem gets either clamped down on with new restrictions or nerfed into the ground?
2 weeks. They already said that after every codex release there will be a faq / Errata after 2 weeks for balancing. After that you have to wait for the 6 month "fixes".
This doesn't effect me all that much, I don't have magnus or mortarion, but I was thinking about it. Now it's a back burner idea.
Seriously, you guys immediately go to Magnus and Mortarion, you need to think bigger.
mrhappyface wrote: So now we know we can abuse the system to high hell... Make your bets! How long until the stratagem gets either clamped down on with new restrictions or nerfed into the ground?
2 weeks. They already said that after every codex release there will be a faq / Errata after 2 weeks for balancing. After that you have to wait for the 6 month "fixes".
This doesn't effect me all that much, I don't have magnus or mortarion, but I was thinking about it. Now it's a back burner idea.
Seriously, you guys immediately go to Magnus and Mortarion, you need to think bigger.
Lord of Skulls deep strikes for 2CP.
I think your thinking too small.
An'ggrath can deep strike in, has re-rolls to charge due to Khorne loci and you can use the Daemon Stratagem to give him a 3++ invul. Might just be worth the 888 price tag.
Or what about the Brass Scorpion? That thing has 3d6" charge range meaning 9" means nothing to him.
mrhappyface wrote: I think your thinking too small.
An'ggrath can deep strike in, has re-rolls to charge due to Khorne loci and you can use the Daemon Stratagem to give him a 3++ invul. Might just be worth the 888 price tag.
Or what about the Brass Scorpion? That thing has 3d6" charge range meaning 9" means nothing to him.
Could be, that may justify the 888 points, or the Brass Scorpion cost, although I'm leery of the FW super-heavies, since it feels like they were punitively priced.
Or you could just spend 1 CP more, deep strike a Herald with a Locus alongside him and give him re-rolls to charge.
Tried my 2x primarch list against nids and got destroyed lol. Whelp. Turns out 3 carnifexes, old one eye and 2 hive tyrants are pretty good in melee :thinking:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Tried my 2x primarch list against nids and got destroyed lol. Whelp. Turns out 3 carnifexes, old one eye and 2 hive tyrants are pretty good in melee :thinking:
You should try a Primarch + a Brass Scorpion, I had a game last night against nids: Magnus drew lots of fire and attention away from everything else and the Scorpion... That thing did work! It dropped at least 1 monstrous creature a turn as well as doing lots of infantry damage and capping objectives. I think in total the scorpion killed: a Tyrranofex, half a unit of Hormagants, a Carnifex, a Flying Hive tyrant, a Trygon, half a unit of genestealers, a unit of termagants and a unit of Gargoyles (note: all infantry squads were 20-30 models).
I did not realise just how good the Brass scorpion was this edition; I was all for writing it off this edition since, in my first game with it, it ended my opponants first turn with 3W but then it fired it's soul shatter bombard and scorpion cannon at a Valdor Tank Hunter and dropped it to 3W too. The scorpion puts out a stupidly scary amount of fire power against monsters and vehicles.
That is very nice, I've been running Magnus and the Lord of Skulls for awhile, and it's honestly about the same thing. I like that the LoS is a bit cheaper for more wounds and an arguably better degradation track.
Cephalobeard wrote: Skarbrand deep striking is going to be powerful, as well. Guarantee you stay in combat from t1.
What about Skarbrand + Magnus? Magnus doesn't really want to leave combat because he's got no shooting and he doesn't really like shooting either.
They could be buddies. I wouldn't be mad about it, either. You don't need to deep strike Magnus, as he can warp time, but having the option is a real thing.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Tried my 2x primarch list against nids and got destroyed lol. Whelp. Turns out 3 carnifexes, old one eye and 2 hive tyrants are pretty good in melee :thinking:
You should try a Primarch + a Brass Scorpion, I had a game last night against nids: Magnus drew lots of fire and attention away from everything else and the Scorpion... That thing did work! It dropped at least 1 monstrous creature a turn as well as doing lots of infantry damage and capping objectives. I think in total the scorpion killed: a Tyrranofex, half a unit of Hormagants, a Carnifex, a Flying Hive tyrant, a Trygon, half a unit of genestealers, a unit of termagants and a unit of Gargoyles (note: all infantry squads were 20-30 models).
I did not realise just how good the Brass scorpion was this edition; I was all for writing it off this edition since, in my first game with it, it ended my opponants first turn with 3W but then it fired it's soul shatter bombard and scorpion cannon at a Valdor Tank Hunter and dropped it to 3W too. The scorpion puts out a stupidly scary amount of fire power against monsters and vehicles.
Huh... I thought the scorpion was nerfed in the sense that it can only do the pistol attack or it's other shooting attack... definitely a close-combat monster tho so DS'ing it does seem tasty.
whembly wrote: Huh... I thought the scorpion was nerfed in the sense that it can only do the pistol attack or it's other shooting attack... definitely a close-combat monster tho so DS'ing it does seem tasty.
Too bad it isn't ITC approved.
It definitely made it harder to deal with hordes but damn; S12 AP-3 D2d6 vs Monsters and Vehicles, I was easily doing 14~ wounds with each round of fire against his monsters and unfortunetly for them they only had 10-14 wounds each. And his Trygon definitely felt those straight 6 damage cc attacks.
Cephalobeard wrote: Skarbrand deep striking is going to be powerful, as well. Guarantee you stay in combat from t1.
What about Skarbrand + Magnus? Magnus doesn't really want to leave combat because he's got no shooting and he doesn't really like shooting either.
They could be buddies. I wouldn't be mad about it, either. You don't need to deep strike Magnus, as he can warp time, but having the option is a real thing.
well deep strike Magnus and THEN warptime it sound awesome, you dont risk it 1st turn be focused without have the chance to cast 1 single spell, protect him to alpha strikes.
What do you guys think is better to alongside a deepstriking Skarbrand or BT: deepstriking in a max squad of Bloodletters (or possibly bloodcrushers) or 2 units of 20 bloodletters?
Only one unit can take advantage of the 3d6 charge banner. Both ways use the same amount of command points.
Cephalobeard wrote: He heals a friendly daemon every single turn something has died. 2 Possible attempts per round.
It's start of your turn I think. He's fairly expensive for a slow moving guy, especially if you keep reserve points for trees. Though near trees at least he can advance and charge.
akwing00 wrote: What do you guys think is better to alongside a deepstriking Skarbrand or BT: deepstriking in a max squad of Bloodletters (or possibly bloodcrushers) or 2 units of 20 bloodletters?
Only one unit can take advantage of the 3d6 charge banner. Both ways use the same amount of command points.
One unit of 30. Boost it to 4++ with the stratagem and charge 3d6 out of the warp. Tie up literally everything.
Oh my lord, just read about the 2CP stratagem that lets a Daemon unit killed by a Grey Knight unit return into play at full wounds 9" from an enemy unit. I need to find a GK player to play against!
Keepers of Secrets are pretty good duellists now, with the ability to give a character they are fighting -3 to hit, -1 from there aura, -1 from the witstealer and the another -1 from the stratagem.
im pretty sure you will need to mix things, mono God doubt it will work great, you need a decent mix of melee and shoot, only melee means you have no ways to take out those pesky screens and you cant charge valuable targets.
You know what is annoying about the mounts for slaanesh not getting updated, the new version of the foot herald has a better melee weapon than the index heralds. :/
Her claws do 2 damage now instead of 1 which would have been really nice on the mounted heralds.
Edit: Amusingly on facebook, Slaanesh faction focus got more likes than both Nurgle and Tzeentch I didn't expect this though khorne having the most isn't a surprise.
Rydria wrote: Keepers of Secrets are pretty good duellists now, with the ability to give a character they are fighting -3 to hit, -1 from there aura, -1 from the witstealer and the another -1 from the stratagem.
That's bad ass.
Player a : "I need 3's to hit with my thunder hammer"
Player b : "actually, you need 6's, good luck with that. "
Player a : "!@$?#!"
Honestly I know some people are upset that the greater deamons didn't get charged much, but with all this stuff I don't think that they need to. There are so many ways to become amazing now. The subtlety of chaos between the chaos marine codex, the deathguard codex, and now the deamons codex leaves so much open. Can't wait for tsons to hit.
Exalted seeker chariot has actually been massively buffed this is why it costs 8pts more for starters it now has 12 wounds instead of 10 and its weapon skill is far far better.
WS (index)
2+ >> 4+ >> 6+
WS (codex)
2+ >> 3+ >> 4+
So for 8pts we got 2 extra wounds and a far better degrading stat line i'm really happy with this, it is definitely worth an 8pts increase, it may actually be better than the regular chariot now 30pts gives it twice the number of wounds, a superior impact hit rule (5+ instead of 6+) more attacks better initial weapon skill (for the first 6 wounds) then equal weapon skill until near death.
I forgot. But if there's a stratagem that adds +1 to Invul Saves, that would combine well with Ephemeral Form and the Impossible Robe for a potential 2++ yes?
Lou_Cypher wrote: I forgot. But if there's a stratagem that adds +1 to Invul Saves, that would combine well with Ephemeral Form and the Impossible Robe for a potential 2++ yes?
The stratagem and robe both say to a maximum of 3+
Zarakynel got a lot more interesting with advance and charge, deep strike and the new Warlord traits. Not to mention her Aura of Exquisite Despair that causes enemy units within 6” suffer up to -2 LD. Combo that with Phantasmagoria's 12” -1 LD bubble and enemies within 6” are taking morale tests with -3LD. Used correctly she could inflict massive casualties.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rydria wrote: Keepers of Secrets are pretty good duellists now, with the ability to give a character they are fighting -3 to hit, -1 from there aura, -1 from the witstealer and the another -1 from the stratagem.
Are you talking about the Aura of Acquiescence stratagem? That's -1 attack not -1 to hit, the same effect though against models with multiple attacks. You could then cast Symphony of Pain for an additional -1 to hit; for -3 to hit and -1 attack. Or go crazy and take the Bewitching Aura warlord trait and that character is potentially suffering -3 attacks and -2 to hit. Excessive indeed.
Sersi wrote: Zarakynel got a lot more interesting with advance and charge, deep strike and the new Warlord traits. Not to mention her Aura of Exquisite Despair that causes enemy units within 6” suffer up to -2 LD. Combo that with Phantasmagoria's 12” -1 LD bubble and enemies within 6” are taking morale tests with -3LD. Used correctly she could inflict massive casualties.
cacophonic choir got buffed too, it is now warp charge 6 instead of 7 and if you roll 10 for the psychic test you get to add +2 to the 2d6 result.
Rydria wrote: Keepers of Secrets are pretty good duellists now, with the ability to give a character they are fighting -3 to hit, -1 from there aura, -1 from the witstealer and the another -1 from the stratagem.
Are you talking about the Aura of Acquiescence stratagem? That's -1 attack not -1 to hit, the same effect though against models with multiple attacks. You could then cast Symphony of Pain for an additional -1 to hit; for -3 to hit and -1 attack. Or go crazy and take the Bewitching Aura warlord trait and that character is potentially suffering -3 attacks and -2 to hit. Excessive indeed.
The Keeper of secrets now has a debuff aura that gives -1 to hit to all enemies within 3 inch of it. So if you stack it with the witstealer and the psychic power that is a -3 to hit when are trying to hit the keeper of secrets.
Any one think that hounds are viable now with the rumored 5 pt price drop? Would have absolutely loved some kind of scout back, but c'est la vie. They seem like a decent/good unit to follow up behind some aggressive deep strikers
Do nurgle herald's still exist? Looking at what is out for the codex so far there are no point values and it is not listed in the codex. It is only in the index. Can I still use a herald as part of a legal Chaos Daemon detachment (with access to strats, relics, etc.)? It can only access spells in the index though?
orkswubwub wrote: Do nurgle herald's still exist? Looking at what is out for the codex so far there are no point values and it is not listed in the codex. It is only in the index. Can I still use a herald as part of a legal Chaos Daemon detachment (with access to strats, relics, etc.)? It can only access spells in the index though?
orkswubwub wrote: Do nurgle herald's still exist? Looking at what is out for the codex so far there are no point values and it is not listed in the codex. It is only in the index. Can I still use a herald as part of a legal Chaos Daemon detachment (with access to strats, relics, etc.)? It can only access spells in the index though?
Rydria wrote: What are people's thoughts on the soulstealer daemon prince ?
I actually quite like it. Think, especially with some of the warlord traits, strategems, and psychic powers Slaanesh has available, he might be rather hard to kill while being killy himself. Already stuck a sword on my prince(ss).
Rydria wrote: What are people's thoughts on the soulstealer daemon prince ?
I actually quite like it. Think, especially with some of the warlord traits, strategems, and psychic powers Slaanesh has available, he might be rather hard to kill while being killy himself. Already stuck a sword on my prince(ss).
I have 2 princes with swords, which have taken a backseat to my claw princess, i can't wait to use them again.
The warlord trait is a really hard choice, there quite a few great ones, the -1 attack aura, the +3 movement, the +d3 attacks on the charge are all good.
So let's start figuring out what's good, bad, and ugly. Now that we have most of the info. Maybe start with the basic greater daemons.
The Loc with its impossible robe relic is quite amazing. I think he is durable eneough to start the game on the table, and his spells give him some pretty decent turn 1 effect and range. While he can also DS to enjoy the extra protection.
The GUO is also pretty great and has a high level of durability with out relics. While having a few character that help make him abit quicker and more agressive. With miasma a deep striking GUO is gonna be tough to deal with and a very self contained. While is is also very strong and spooky once he does get in your face. The only lame bit is he kind of lacks abit in turn one effect, and thus no matter what he's gonna have to suffer through some form of shooting and melee before he gets to start doing stuff.
The blood thirsters seem alittle meh. I thi k them getting cleave attacks make them very importantly versatile. However it lacks the message durability of the above. It can get a relic to get q better save, but it's not as good as the Loc can get too for about the same cost. Which I think puts the BT in a bad spot.
The slaannesh thing seems like a good character assasin, but again you have to get it there.
Let's break down what makes you think a LoC is amazing. Who cares if it had a 3++? It only does 5 attacks in melee, and only has a D3 smite. Absolutely magical Christmas land for a LoC, it kills a grand total of 11 models.
Are you trying to tank wounds? Why not just spend less points on 50 bodies with horrors?
He can deep strike, but for what purpose? Again, if the claim is they're amazing, or even good, we need to justify that claim. I cannot find the reasoning.
Was watching the miniwargaming review for the codex. The reviewer mentioned that for the icon to be upgraded to a banner of blood it had to be on the battlefield at the start of the game so essentially saying you couldn't give the 3d6 charge to a unit that was placed into deepstrike reserve with the other strategum.
Can anyone confirm this? I'm not sure if that's how it works, but I've only been able to hear the rules read as opposed to seeing them on the page myself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know Denizens of the Warp Stratagem is used during "deployment", where you place models in the warp instead of the on the battlefield.
Banner of blood states use this stratagem before the battle choose one of your khorne models with a demonic icon...
guess my question is can you select a unit that isn't on the battlefield?
If we’re assuming that a natural 1 on the re-roll is instant death on the IR (and if not, then it’s risk is meaningless), then what odds is it actually worth? So, it’s a 3++, that’s a 1/3 chance of failing a save. But then taking your reroll carries a 1/6 chance of dying? That’s not good odds, on a model with many wounds remaining. If it’s a high damage attack, like a Knight in melee or some LOW’s preposterous cannon, fine, but against like Bolter fire, it’s, well terrible.
Do we know enough to start working out how lists might look? We’re going to want Battalions for those DSCPs, no question about that. Nurgle are the outstanding choice for this, given their HQ and Troops diversity.
The other deities only have one Troops, which presents a choice: double down on the same unit, which could lead to bad stone-paper-scissors matchups, or forego the Locus on a couple of HQs.
We’re probably going to consume quite a lot of CP on deep strikes, which suggests that where TOs are not restricting the number of detachments, the non-Troops stuff wants to be arranged in Vanguards, etc. That again raises questions of polytheist or monolatrist.
Pure Tzeentch Vanguards look really good. Flamers, EFs, and disc/chariot Heralds have brilliant synergy. One of those rare cases where a Detachment presents itself as a self-sufficient fighting force.
Nurgle Outriders might be ok. Many of us will have a load of Plague Drones to hand because if you wanted to build a Battalion, they were essentially Start Collecting freebies. Add a Furies tax and you’ve got an alright HQ slot for a third Herald or a GUO. Alternatively, Forge World Plague Toads.
Khorne armies are probably going to want an Outriders for the DTW coverage. Honestly, I rate Flesh Hounds pretty well. Fifteen S5 AP-1 attacks seems to worry opponents.
I’ve got a fair bit of Slaanesh. Crossing my fingers for my Herald on Steed. A Hellflayer and Seekers looks like a pretty good base for Outriders.
Furies and Sould Grinders will give us more diverse mono Outriders and Spearheads. Even more so with the FW gribblies.
There’s things to be said for mixed detachments, though. What Loci can we live without, when we want a soup Detachment? Do DPs even get Loci? If we can’t live without maximum Loci (or CBA with the annoying bookkeeping of remembering which Herald is the one without what will be a standard thing), there’s always Be’lakor.
Has to be said, if we’re not making a Detachment mono, then it looks like there’s no opportunity cost on adding a strong CHAOS unit from another list. I’ll certainly be tempted to do a few soup detachments, with a Contemptor or Dreadclaw and a Word Bearers HQ - who cares neither for a Locus he can’t have not a Legion trait that won’t benefit him - as I main a CHAOS grand alliance.
Does the loci affect non-daemon codex daemons? For example, the loci for nurgle looks potent on a foetid bloat drone with plaguespewers. Assuming I have a detachment of nurgle daemons and have a DG detach, I should be good?
orkswubwub wrote: Does the loci affect non-daemon codex daemons? For example, the loci for nurgle looks potent on a foetid bloat drone with plaguespewers. Assuming I have a detachment of nurgle daemons and have a DG detach, I should be good?
Cephalobeard wrote: Let's break down what makes you think a LoC is amazing. Who cares if it had a 3++? It only does 5 attacks in melee, and only has a D3 smite. Absolutely magical Christmas land for a LoC, it kills a grand total of 11 models.
Are you trying to tank wounds? Why not just spend less points on 50 bodies with horrors?
He can deep strike, but for what purpose? Again, if the claim is they're amazing, or even good, we need to justify that claim. I cannot find the reasoning.
I'l rephrase my analysis from the daemons thread for this thread and to answer this a little more clearly:
The LoC stands out to me as the only tzeentch caster with the durability to get in the thick of the enemy army and remain a threat and force positioning that is advantageous to you via Infernal Gate and Treason of Tzeentch. even chariot heralds and standard DPs are quite likely to crumble because of the lower toughness and wound count, while the IR/WLT lord of change can take a direct shot from a scorpion twin pulsar and shrug it off (both statistically and in practical experience). While it's true he won't win any close combat awards, with a sword he will can-opener vehicles and larger things pretty handily.
The disruption potential provided is high enough that I believe he warrants inclusion based on that alone.
orkswubwub wrote: Do nurgle herald's still exist? Looking at what is out for the codex so far there are no point values and it is not listed in the codex. It is only in the index. Can I still use a herald as part of a legal Chaos Daemon detachment (with access to strats, relics, etc.)? It can only access spells in the index though?
Yeah, I'm planning on taking daemons to a tournament. 1 day after they've been released(aka not enough time to ship). Can I have a link too :p
Cephalobeard wrote: Let's break down what makes you think a LoC is amazing. Who cares if it had a 3++? It only does 5 attacks in melee, and only has a D3 smite. Absolutely magical Christmas land for a LoC, it kills a grand total of 11 models.
Are you trying to tank wounds? Why not just spend less points on 50 bodies with horrors?
He can deep strike, but for what purpose? Again, if the claim is they're amazing, or even good, we need to justify that claim. I cannot find the reasoning.
durability wise the LoC is quite durable with out set up unlike lets say magnus who needs a psykic phase, and needs to not be denied to get pretty tough. The LoC can cast multiple spells and some of which are pretty good. the new infernal gate spell can do some pretty serious damage bring that model kill count up pretty quick.
An LoC with robe alone is more durable than 50 horrors, and with the warlord trait is more durable against pretty much everything x.x. Plus the way i list build i tend to go for mono durability to take advantage of making a chunk of my opponents weapons less useful.
If we compare using an LoC to a Magnus. Magnus is gonna bring warp time and weave of fate so they can keep themselves safe, and get into mlee and use that wonderful melee attack he's got. He's also gonna cast gaze because his smite is pretty dope. So using your damage out put measurement he's putting out either 13-19 model kills <.<.
vs the LoC
Who is gonna bring the relic and warlord traits as his defense stats. Then maybe bring infernal gateway and smite doing something like a minimum of 6 wound to 12 (assuming you can't get a target that lets you connect your inerfnal gate to hit multiple targets.). Getting +5 if you add in his melee attacks, but being realistic he wont be in melee turn 1 more often than not when we compare him to magnus.I think he fairs alright.
Where i kind of see the LoC over magnus is just how the game works out. I just don't see magnus making his points turn 1 in any of the games i've played against him with my eldar. Even when magnus goes first and slam into a hemlock or or my shining spears. he kills lots of stuff that cost about half as much as he does... and then he get blown off the table as he puts himself in quit the compromising position getting into melee. If he doesn't make melee turn 1 via felled powers, or by going second he jsut dies turn one to units like my shining spears that can kill him for half his cost. . I like the LoC becuase i'm not leaning so hard on the powers, and he is abit better costed for chilling out at arms length spitting spells.
In ranking them i'd still rank it GUO>LoC>BT>Slanneshthing
lindsay40k wrote: If we’re assuming that a natural 1 on the re-roll is instant death on the IR (and if not, then it’s risk is meaningless), then what odds is it actually worth? So, it’s a 3++, that’s a 1/3 chance of failing a save. But then taking your reroll carries a 1/6 chance of dying? That’s not good odds, on a model with many wounds remaining. If it’s a high damage attack, like a Knight in melee or some LOW’s preposterous cannon, fine, but against like Bolter fire, it’s, well terrible.
Do we know enough to start working out how lists might look? We’re going to want Battalions for those DSCPs, no question about that. Nurgle are the outstanding choice for this, given their HQ and Troops diversity.
The other deities only have one Troops, which presents a choice: double down on the same unit, which could lead to bad stone-paper-scissors matchups, or forego the Locus on a couple of HQs.
We’re probably going to consume quite a lot of CP on deep strikes, which suggests that where TOs are not restricting the number of detachments, the non-Troops stuff wants to be arranged in Vanguards, etc. That again raises questions of polytheist or monolatrist.
Pure Tzeentch Vanguards look really good. Flamers, EFs, and disc/chariot Heralds have brilliant synergy. One of those rare cases where a Detachment presents itself as a self-sufficient fighting force.
Nurgle Outriders might be ok. Many of us will have a load of Plague Drones to hand because if you wanted to build a Battalion, they were essentially Start Collecting freebies. Add a Furies tax and you’ve got an alright HQ slot for a third Herald or a GUO. Alternatively, Forge World Plague Toads.
Khorne armies are probably going to want an Outriders for the DTW coverage. Honestly, I rate Flesh Hounds pretty well. Fifteen S5 AP-1 attacks seems to worry opponents.
I’ve got a fair bit of Slaanesh. Crossing my fingers for my Herald on Steed. A Hellflayer and Seekers looks like a pretty good base for Outriders.
Furies and Sould Grinders will give us more diverse mono Outriders and Spearheads. Even more so with the FW gribblies.
There’s things to be said for mixed detachments, though. What Loci can we live without, when we want a soup Detachment? Do DPs even get Loci? If we can’t live without maximum Loci (or CBA with the annoying bookkeeping of remembering which Herald is the one without what will be a standard thing), there’s always Be’lakor.
Has to be said, if we’re not making a Detachment mono, then it looks like there’s no opportunity cost on adding a strong CHAOS unit from another list. I’ll certainly be tempted to do a few soup detachments, with a Contemptor or Dreadclaw and a Word Bearers HQ - who cares neither for a Locus he can’t have not a Legion trait that won’t benefit him - as I main a CHAOS grand alliance.
I feel like you can pretty reliably go for 3 battalions.
Tzneetch still has access to brimstone squads of 10 are still a thing from what i've heard/read thus far. So it wouldnt be tough to pull that off. ALso horrors aren't too bad as anti chaffe shooting and a squad of 30+ herald and +1 to wound makes a great potential drop squad that can clear out infantry squads quickly. Some that is still prevalent in the current meta.
Think khorne will also drift toward battalions as they'll already have thier Bloodletter bomb which basicly pays for itself if you bring the battalion giving you all 3 command points you need to pull off one. (though you can do more than one as the skill is a banner skill, and al lthe banner stratagem are done before the start of the game).
As for who doesn't need loci??? i'd say khorne and nurgle don't really NEEED thiers. if your doing a mixed daemons force nurgle's m,ulti damageo n 6's is rather in consistent if you don't build around it very heavily, and even then the thing that sets it off is a power, and as such only one unit will go to ham on the whole deal. Plus nurgle still lacks in delivery so what ever is gonna charge, your oppont is gonna see lumber into combat a turn ahead of time if you dont get luck. not to mention there are better anti multi would options availible between tzneetch and khorne.Even tzneetch's isn't all that amazing. Do you really wanna sit there fighting?? If your in that situations your already pretty unhappy, a chance to maybe cause them miss more isn't all that big.
From there we also need to consider the disconnect is stratagies. I think Tzneetch has a lot of options for putting out turn 1 affect from horror drops to flamer drops. Either of which can be buffed with +1 to wound. While Khorne has bllod letter bombs. Both of these can do some strong turn 1 effect stuff, and start off strong. Which makes nurgle kind of like a back up plan in Tzneetch khorne list??? all your nurgle stuff is gonna be coming in like hot snot <.< which is pretty slow, getting charges off turn 2 or 3 depending on your deep strike opportunities, deployment, and your opponent.
So i wonder if it might not be worth while considering just going Tzneetch/Khorne for an alpha strike sort of force or mono nurgle for a beta strike type force and trying to stack al lthe relics and spell to make either one of those work better?? I feel doing a little of each might water down your list?? And this is coming from some one who really wants to run Tzneetch/Khorne/Nurgle. I just don't see how nurgle works with Tzneetch and Khorne.
Cephalobeard wrote: Let's break down what makes you think a LoC is amazing. Who cares if it had a 3++? It only does 5 attacks in melee, and only has a D3 smite. Absolutely magical Christmas land for a LoC, it kills a grand total of 11 models.
Are you trying to tank wounds? Why not just spend less points on 50 bodies with horrors?
He can deep strike, but for what purpose? Again, if the claim is they're amazing, or even good, we need to justify that claim. I cannot find the reasoning.
I'l rephrase my analysis from the daemons thread for this thread and to answer this a little more clearly:
The LoC stands out to me as the only tzeentch caster with the durability to get in the thick of the enemy army and remain a threat and force positioning that is advantageous to you via Infernal Gate and Treason of Tzeentch. even chariot heralds and standard DPs are quite likely to crumble because of the lower toughness and wound count, while the IR/WLT lord of change can take a direct shot from a scorpion twin pulsar and shrug it off (both statistically and in practical experience). While it's true he won't win any close combat awards, with a sword he will can-opener vehicles and larger things pretty handily.
The disruption potential provided is high enough that I believe he warrants inclusion based on that alone.
I agree a little bit here. I don't really think you'd be charging too much with chariots of disc heralds. You'll just be paying more to have the mobility you need to support flamers/Horrors up the board. That said the LoC spell wise is just alot more consistant, and i think he can put out enough damage, and is durable enough to be worth having around.
lindsay40k wrote: If we’re assuming that a natural 1 on the re-roll is instant death on the IR (and if not, then it’s risk is meaningless), then what odds is it actually worth? So, it’s a 3++, that’s a 1/3 chance of failing a save. But then taking your reroll carries a 1/6 chance of dying? That’s not good odds, on a model with many wounds remaining. If it’s a high damage attack, like a Knight in melee or some LOW’s preposterous cannon, fine, but against like Bolter fire, it’s, well terrible.
The faction focus from GW talks about the result of the reroll. Assuming Ephemeral Form stays the same you won't be able to trigger the instant death as a roll of 1 becomes a result of 2.
Assuming ID on a natural 1, the way I see the reroll being used is if it would likely result in you losing your last wound - ie: you are dead if you don't reroll, so you have nothing to lose.
akwing00 wrote: Was watching the miniwargaming review for the codex. The reviewer mentioned that for the icon to be upgraded to a banner of blood it had to be on the battlefield at the start of the game so essentially saying you couldn't give the 3d6 charge to a unit that was placed into deepstrike reserve with the other strategum.
Can anyone confirm this? I'm not sure if that's how it works, but I've only been able to hear the rules read as opposed to seeing them on the page myself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know Denizens of the Warp Stratagem is used during "deployment", where you place models in the warp instead of the on the battlefield.
Banner of blood states use this stratagem before the battle choose one of your khorne models with a demonic icon...
guess my question is can you select a unit that isn't on the battlefield?
I listened to the same review, and actually had to pause and rewind when he said this. Based on his (and others') reading of the stratagem, you can still give the banner to deep striking units because you upgrade the banner before the battle, not during deployment. Nothing in the stratagem says that the unit must be on the battlefield, only that it must include an icon. What he was referring to was his own idea that you could use the summoning stratagem to summon a large unit of Khorne Daemons, then use the icon stratagem as if it were Descent of Angels and charge 3D6 with that new unit, which he is right, you cannot do.
akwing00 wrote: Was watching the miniwargaming review for the codex. The reviewer mentioned that for the icon to be upgraded to a banner of blood it had to be on the battlefield at the start of the game so essentially saying you couldn't give the 3d6 charge to a unit that was placed into deepstrike reserve with the other strategum.
Can anyone confirm this? I'm not sure if that's how it works, but I've only been able to hear the rules read as opposed to seeing them on the page myself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know Denizens of the Warp Stratagem is used during "deployment", where you place models in the warp instead of the on the battlefield.
Banner of blood states use this stratagem before the battle choose one of your khorne models with a demonic icon...
guess my question is can you select a unit that isn't on the battlefield?
I listened to the same review, and actually had to pause and rewind when he said this. Based on his (and others') reading of the stratagem, you can still give the banner to deep striking units because you upgrade the banner before the battle, not during deployment. Nothing in the stratagem says that the unit must be on the battlefield, only that it must include an icon. What he was referring to was his own idea that you could use the summoning stratagem to summon a large unit of Khorne Daemons, then use the icon stratagem as if it were Descent of Angels and charge 3D6 with that new unit, which he is right, you cannot do.
the banner command point is used before the battle, and doesn't specify a location for the unit in question. As such you can deep strike and do the 3d6 charge. it's pretty great, but if it catches on you best beleive enemy armies will be deploying thier own scouts to counter this pretty hard in short order.
Edit: just watched the miniwarhaming though . He makes a weird logical leap that just isn't.
edit2: Also on the LoC thing you can have the LoC cast infernal gate/smite/bolt of change on in 1 turn with 1 CP. a turn. So he's got some rather impressive mortal wound generation off one model. Mind you that made bolt of change now go off on an 8 instead of 9, and bolt of change as always lets you pick your target so it's abit better than your normal smite spam as you can reach out and hit what you want.
the banner command point is used before the battle, and doesn't specify a location for the unit in question. As such you can deep strike and do the 3d6 charge. it's pretty great, but if it catches on you best beleive enemy armies will be deploying thier own scouts to counter this pretty hard in short order
I'm pretty sure most players were already very concerned with bubble wrap/alpha strike mitigation long before this. Turn 1 charges have always been a possibility, and now they're going to be considered a regularity between this codex and Tyranids before it.
To that end, I'm wondering if a good strategy would be to build a list around around a turn one drop designed for chaff clearing (horror bomb/flamers/???) followed by a turn 2 drop of nasty assault units (bloodletters/Skarbrand/etc). Then if you can pull off a meaningful turn 1 charge it's icing on the cake, but you're not hosed and left out in the wind if you're opponent does happen to have significant and well deployed bubble wrap.
Lou_Cypher wrote: Hmmm... are our Pink Horror Squads comparable at all to Devourer Gants?
Theyre cheaper i guess. Same number of shots at large numbers. And dont need tunnels taxes. More durable with a 4++ too.
But.... no access to a shoot twice stratagem.
I'd say it's comparable. They really need a Herald for the strength buff and flickering flames for the +1 to wound though (flickering flames being arguably the more important aspect).
It's probably not quite as lethal against certain targets, but as you pointed out they're much harder to shift after the drop.
Nurgle does have turn 1 effect!! And it's not took bad, and could help clear chaffe for Blood letter charges in later turns. While also taking up decent table space to keep a place to deep strike.
Nurglings can get buffed pretty decently and infiltrate really close up. The slippery bile piper gives nurglings an additional attack, while the Herald gives them +1 str (basicly +1 to would against everything). From there a nurgle unit can get blessing to get another +1 to wound, and another caster can reduce a targets toughness by one (again with such low base are every point moved is basicly +1). Suddenly your wounding guard on 2s and marines on 3s woth 5 attacks a base refilling 1s, from a unit that started its turn potentially 9" away from the enemy deployment... fun!!
Obviously your opponent geting turn 1 on you could suck?? They do atleast really love a great unclean one with a doom bell bring back those taste 4 wound bases, and 2 squads of 9 won't break the bank, and can be daise chained back to into the aura of your GUO and bile piper to counter enemy D'S, and get buffs.
Realisticly you only need about 2-4 bases to chain back to reach the aura abilities as well.
How powerful. Hmm not sure the nurglings seem abit scary to put that far up, but they are surprisingly durable despite being splatable. Even getting hit with 2 damage weapons most of those are looking to get more than half of 18 pts worth of model from thier shooting.
Just a neat thing.
On the tzneetch front I feel like if restrict most of that to summoning?? Horrors and exalted flamers are very target specific, but are honestly easy enough to summon in when you need them, and in a tournament setting would give a list some much desired flexibility. None of the other chaos gods have stuff that I think warrents summoning???
hmm any good articles or written reviews already out there? Not a fan of video reviews (cant watch them at work and want to start building some lists in my head)^^
mrhappyface wrote: Oh my lord, just read about the 2CP stratagem that lets a Daemon unit killed by a Grey Knight unit return into play at full wounds 9" from an enemy unit. I need to find a GK player to play against!
So would this let you bring back Magnus or Mortarion? Seems like it would lead to an easy win vs Grey Knights if thats the case. Is it limited to infantry maybe?
mrhappyface wrote: Oh my lord, just read about the 2CP stratagem that lets a Daemon unit killed by a Grey Knight unit return into play at full wounds 9" from an enemy unit. I need to find a GK player to play against!
So would this let you bring back Magnus or Mortarion? Seems like it would lead to an easy win vs Grey Knights if thats the case. Is it limited to infantry maybe?
Demonic Incursion: For 2CP, use this Stratagem when one of your Daemon units is destroyed by a Grey Knights unit, the destroyed unit is returned to your army at full strength and set up anywhere on the battlefield during your next Movement phase and is at least 9″ away from enemy models. This does not cost you any reinforcement points during a Matched Play game.
Much like the deep strike stratagem, there seem to be no restrictions. I'm not sure whether it's hilarious that Daemons will be able to hammer Grey Knights with re-appearing units or if it's sad that the one army Grey Knights are supposed to be good against will be able to do terrible things to them.
knas wrote: Got a LoC waiting to be assembled, but not sure if Kairos or LoC is the optimal choice of the two. Any tips?
Puuhhh... Kairos has the advantage of the extra D3 command points and is actually a much better psyker both offensively and defensively. The only thing really going for the vanilla LoC is a big one: Due to artefact and WL trait he can have a 3++ and -1 to Damage from enemy weapons. So a LoC is really hard to kill with these.
I think there are two main circumstances when you really want to go for one of the two.
1.) Go for Kairos, if you have a lot of Deep Striking stuff via the new Stratagem, since he grants the +D3 CP.
2.) Go for the LoC, if you use very few monsters in the army. In this case the LoC will be a good bullet magnet.
Grey Knights: the single faction most capable of banishing a Daemon for a hundred years
Grey Knights: the single faction against which the same Daemon can jump back in over and over and over
I can see what they were doing with this, recreating the (brilliant) 3ed rule enabling Daemons to recycle units against GK, balancing the GK bonuses against Daemons and creating a narrative hook that the GK are deployed because the incursion is out of control, but this seems to be a very odd way of doing it. Rather than a numberless wave after wave of Daemons, it’s going to mean that Primarchs and the huge FW ones are going to laugh and sing That’s Not My Name as Draigo frantically reads from the tome of banishing
Grey Knights have all the tools needed to kill huge swaths of deamons in no time flat. I think it's fair you can bring back some of them seeing as more than one unit will most likely be destroyed a turn.
andysonic1 wrote: Grey Knights have all the tools needed to kill huge swaths of deamons in no time flat. I think it's fair you can bring back some of them seeing as more than one unit will most likely be destroyed a turn.
Well, they are gonna get kicked in the nads if the smite rule becomes a perma thing.
Galas wrote: That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"
I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.
Galas wrote: That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"
I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.
And not to mention that if someone isn't running 100% GKs, they could drop your big models to 2-3 wounds with their smite spam/Daemon weapons and then have another detachment unit finish them off.
Galas wrote: That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"
I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.
And not to mention that if someone isn't running 100% GKs, they could drop your big models to 2-3 wounds with their smite spam/Daemon weapons and then have another detachment unit finish them off.
Exactly. Of all the things to worry about breaking the game, this Stratagem is not one of them. Being able to deep strike 30 Bloodletters and then fan out 3D6 + 3 pile in + 3 consolidate allowed me to surround completely shut down half my opponents armies. TO BE FAIR: neither of his two lists were as powergamy as mine ended up being, and he wasn't utilizing his chaff units to screen, and he thought his Sanguinary Guard could tango with my heavy hitters. Still, even if all your Bloodletters do is clear the enemy screening unit, they then force your opponent to deal with them and not the rest of the army surging forward.
I am very excited for my Khorne army going forward.
Galas wrote: That stratagem alone makes Grey Knights useless agaisn't Daemons... "oh you killed my BT? Np bro! I can resurrect him 4 more times!"
I played a two Battalion list using CSM for one and Deamons for the other yesterday. 9CP, 3 of which I used before the battle began to put 30 bloodletters into deep strike + give them a 3D6 banner, and then another 1 for another relic. Down to 5CP, and then started using reroll stratagem, the extra die on perils strat, and the deny strat from World Eaters. You'll be able to bring back a unit once, maybe twice if you don't use other stratagems. Let's take a moment to breath and process realistic game scenarios and not declare Grey Knights useless because of one stratagem that is arguably worse than 90% of the other stratagems in the Deamons Codex.
And not to mention that if someone isn't running 100% GKs, they could drop your big models to 2-3 wounds with their smite spam/Daemon weapons and then have another detachment unit finish them off.
Exactly. Of all the things to worry about breaking the game, this Stratagem is not one of them. Being able to deep strike 30 Bloodletters and then fan out 3D6 + 3 pile in + 3 consolidate allowed me to surround completely shut down half my opponents armies. TO BE FAIR: neither of his two lists were as powergamy as mine ended up being, and he wasn't utilizing his chaff units to screen, and he thought his Sanguinary Guard could tango with my heavy hitters. Still, even if all your Bloodletters do is clear the enemy screening unit, they then force your opponent to deal with them and not the rest of the army surging forward.
I am very excited for my Khorne army going forward.
Agreed. Its kind of like the Eldar resurrection stratagem for the Avatar. I have only once ever had enough CP's left by turn 3 to use it, and the Avatar wasn't getting targeted by that point so I spend them on something else. If your holding onto those points just because your going to want to use them vs a Grey Knight chapter at a specific point then how is this upsetting to the Grey Knight player?
But I have a question. If I'm playing an Imperial 'Soup' list of say Marines with a small detachment of Imperial Guard and another small detachment of Grey Knights does that mean the fact there is a GK on the board you get to use that stratagem or does the unit actually have to be killed by the GK? What is the actual writing on that stratagem?
the stratagem is just there to even the palying field for theo ther benefits GK has against daemons so that you can ahve a not one sided game. As gk has a decent range of anti daemon tools
Well now that we pretty much have everything... List ideas?
Is taking 30 bloodletters actually worth it? They're killy enough as is with 20. And you don't really want to wipe the unit, you want it to die on the other turn
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well now that we pretty much have everything... List ideas?
Is taking 30 bloodletters actually worth it? They're killy enough as is with 20. And you don't really want to wipe the unit, you want it to die on the other turn
yes you bring 30 for ALOT of reasons.
1. a Unit of one, 5, 10, or 30 can all kil labout the same amount ofm odels in a unit as long as you are smart with your pile in and you just only bring or 2 models into melee range. the rest of the models can do other thing ssuch as
2. with 30 models it's easier to get surrounds on units or multiple units such that your opponnenlt will have difficults or no ability to retreat.
3. As you are trying to not kill said units, and other units could be near by, and you have to charge: it is highly likely that many blood letters will die before you start doing damage 30 is insurance that you actually just get the darn job done. Lose one model to over watch at 20 and you lose +1 to hit.
4. while it's true you want to kill the enemy unit in the next turn with most melee units. Blood letters do most thier damage in the fire turn of combat, WIth 30 blood letters you can have 15 of a unit attack a unit nad blow it up with 30 attacks, and the nthe other 15 can spend thier time finding an nice victim for the 2nd turn to keep you company during your opponents shooting phase.
SO??? i think yeah you want 30, anythign else kind of fails to do anything particularly well
well.. you only need 1 cp if you deep strike in a unit of 20 blood letters. I think its not a small consideration. For 2 CP, I can deep strike in 2 units of 20 blood letters. That's going to be more flexible and have more hitting power than deep striking in one unit of 30.
I think the icon lets Khorne add +1 to its charge anyway. If its blood letters, maybe its better to just have 3 units of 20 blood letters to help make up the battalion detachment, then spend 3 cp to deep strike those three units, and just rely on the making the 8 inch charge roll instead of spending even more cp on those blood letters.
If you fail one of those charges, you always have the option to spend a cp to reroll on of the dice. Not sure if you absolutely need to spend the 1 cp for a 3d6 charge roll when you already have a pretty good chance of making it in.
Then you can spend cp on other stuff. CP is useful for all sorts of things.
lindsay40k wrote: Grey Knights: the single faction most capable of banishing a Daemon for a hundred years
Grey Knights: the single faction against which the same Daemon can jump back in over and over and over
I can see what they were doing with this, recreating the (brilliant) 3ed rule enabling Daemons to recycle units against GK, balancing the GK bonuses against Daemons and creating a narrative hook that the GK are deployed because the incursion is out of control, but this seems to be a very odd way of doing it. Rather than a numberless wave after wave of Daemons, it’s going to mean that Primarchs and the huge FW ones are going to laugh and sing That’s Not My Name as Draigo frantically reads from the tome of banishing
Can't use the stratagem on named Daemons, if that is what you're saying.
lindsay40k wrote: Grey Knights: the single faction most capable of banishing a Daemon for a hundred years
Grey Knights: the single faction against which the same Daemon can jump back in over and over and over
I can see what they were doing with this, recreating the (brilliant) 3ed rule enabling Daemons to recycle units against GK, balancing the GK bonuses against Daemons and creating a narrative hook that the GK are deployed because the incursion is out of control, but this seems to be a very odd way of doing it. Rather than a numberless wave after wave of Daemons, it’s going to mean that Primarchs and the huge FW ones are going to laugh and sing That’s Not My Name as Draigo frantically reads from the tome of banishing
Can't use the stratagem on named Daemons, if that is what you're saying.
I wasn't aware of that restriction, but that makes sense. You can still bring back a Brass Scorpion or other massive non-named beast, though.
You can bring back lots of stuff, but it's only limited to GK which are splashed for at best. While it also is erasily countered by just reducing units to 1 or 2 models and letthing them run around half dead.
it could be good on the super heavies, but i feel like many of the big bad super heavy models score thier points after multiple turns of play, and against other super heavy models, and thus i think they struggle to be revelent in my mind.
So I am a non-daemons player who is looking at the army with the impending new codex. I had been looking at Death Guard as well... but I thought I would ask here before I make a final move.
I am interested in Slaanesh but they don't seem to have as much "stuff" as the other armies. Does everyone think Slaanesh are viable with this codex and do they have enough models? After looking at them I am hoping there's a new keeper of secrets.. it looks fairly old. Anyway, tips would be nice!
So I know people don't exactly love the Treason of Tzeentch, but together with the new re-roll psycic power it becomes somewhat reliable to use against mid leadership characters.
I wonder though, can it be used to tie up an enemy group to prevent them from shooting overwatch? i e possessing a warlock and then charging first with it.
knas wrote: So I know people don't exactly love the Treason of Tzeentch, but together with the new re-roll psycic power it becomes somewhat reliable to use against mid leadership characters.
I wonder though, can it be used to tie up an enemy group to prevent them from shooting overwatch? i e possessing a warlock and then charging first with it.
Your idea works, I think. Using the reroll psychic power and Treason gives you good chances in controlling a medium leadership character, but most often it would be better to snipe them with Bolt of Change. They are often just too weak to do anything in melee or shooting.
knas wrote: So I know people don't exactly love the Treason of Tzeentch, but together with the new re-roll psycic power it becomes somewhat reliable to use against mid leadership characters.
I wonder though, can it be used to tie up an enemy group to prevent them from shooting overwatch? i e possessing a warlock and then charging first with it.
That would definitely work. Actually getting the power to be effective is the problem with that plan.
While circumstantial, the idea was to use it to stop annoying overwatch from stuff like flamers or Eldar. Not for using the target to actually do the fighting. But it's still 2 psychic powers just for that I guess
knas wrote: While circumstantial, the idea was to use it to stop annoying overwatch from stuff like flamers or Eldar. Not for using the target to actually do the fighting. But it's still 2 psychic powers just for that I guess
Well, even a Warlock has leadership 8. That would be a chance of a bit more than 60% to control them and does not take into account the chances of casting Treason. This would make the chances drop to 38ish %. I assume it is not really worth it.
Controling Magnus or Mortarion however might be worth the risk. (21% chance roughly)
Thanks for the info, but it appears that there are some transcription mistakes? For example the points values on Nurglings are inconsistent. Also, are you sure that the Mischief Makers rule is correct? I would be surprised that's what it is.
Alright, so in rvd's write up, it turns out the GK stratagem only works on non-named daemon characters; So no bringing primarchs back to life. However, it still works on greater daemons and daemon engines so... I'm still gonna be slapping GK players back and forth with the brass scorpion.
arhurt wrote: What do you guys think of screamers with this? Can you confirm that the Slashing Attack does not need units to advance, but simply move over enemies?
It is confirmed. Still. It's 1 mortal wound every 6 screamers. Nothing impressive. They're still quite bad durability wise and their damage is just "OK"
rvd1ofakind wrote: The only mistakes that might be there is the inconsistent points. The top points will always be corrent and I'll correct the others if I'm notified.
But yes, Nurgling's rule change to that.
What was the rule for Nurglings before? I assume this is a nerf...
So my 1250 list is...
Khorne patrol:
Skulltaker
30 Bloodletters icon, instrument (don't have more atm)
Nurgle batallion:
Scrivener
Poxbringer(Horn of Nurgle's rot... I guess?) (+1 to wound power)
2x 3 Nurglings
30 plaguebearers(instrument)
Tzeentch batallion:
Changecaster(re-roll 1s to wound trait) (+1 to wound power, boon/bolt of change)
Changecaster (re-roll 1 dice power, Infernal gateway)
2x 10 Brimstones
30 Pinks (Icon and 17 pts for 1 full split)
9 CP: 3 to 5 for bloodletters(deepstrike, 3D6, +1 invul), 2 for pinks, 2 for Skulltaker and Changecaster. 2 for an autopass morale.
Plaguebearers to footslog and take up the board?
Thoughts? I don't want to take any big guys unless they are REALLY good because they give up 4 points.
EDIT: or just cut 1 model of each troop(2 for PB), icons and have a wingless Khorne DP instead of Skulltaker for the (6+ generates more hits stratagem and just overall anti-tank, re-roll 1s goodness)
Chaos Daemons Faction Focus wrote:Excitingly, unlike previous editions, these Loci affect every single Daemon unit in your detachment, including your Greater Daemons!
This opens the door to some interesting combinations.
Example:
Tzeentch Vanguard:
Herald on Disc
Flamers
Flamers
Exalted Flamer
Khorne Outriders:
Herald on Juggernaut
Flesh Hounds
Flesh Hounds
Furies
Chaos Daemons Battalion:
Tzeentch Daemon Prince
Bloodthirster of Being Woken Up Early On A Sunday
30 Pink Horrors
20 Bloodletters
9 Brimstone, 1 Blue
If the preview wasn’t a typo, everything in that army can benefit from Loci, with no tax units. We might well have some creative options to get around ‘I’m not buying and painting sixty ruddy Daemonettes’.
Eldenfirefly wrote: well.. you only need 1 cp if you deep strike in a unit of 20 blood letters. I think its not a small consideration. For 2 CP, I can deep strike in 2 units of 20 blood letters. That's going to be more flexible and have more hitting power than deep striking in one unit of 30.
I think the icon lets Khorne add +1 to its charge anyway. If its blood letters, maybe its better to just have 3 units of 20 blood letters to help make up the battalion detachment, then spend 3 cp to deep strike those three units, and just rely on the making the 8 inch charge roll instead of spending even more cp on those blood letters.
If you fail one of those charges, you always have the option to spend a cp to reroll on of the dice. Not sure if you absolutely need to spend the 1 cp for a 3d6 charge roll when you already have a pretty good chance of making it in.
Then you can spend cp on other stuff. CP is useful for all sorts of things.
You can try this, but it's not going to work half the time. I play World Eaters and shoved two units of Berzerkers inside a Drop Pod, and let me tell you: I would give my right leg for a 3D6 charge strat. Even on an 8 you are tempting the dark gods by not giving yourself a guaranteed charge. You are also not understanding the significance of charging 3D6+1. When your 30 unit Bloodletters make their charge move, only one model needs to go to the initial charged target. The rest of the unit can move the entire charge distance in any direction they want as long as the entire unit stays in coherence. This means your 30 man unit can tie up an entire side of the board, sweeping in over your opponent's models and surrounding them. This cannot be understated. You can shut down tons of gak easily while the rest of your army rolls up.
It costs 3 CP to do this. If you rely on the 2D6 charge out of deep strike, you are relying on fate to win you games. Spend the CP on the big unit and completely dominate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question that may be in an FAQ: I have a CSM Battalion and a Deamon Battalion. My CSM Battalion has a Deamon Prince warlord. Can he take the Skullreaver if I pay 1CP for it?
andysonic1 wrote: Question that may be in an FAQ: I have a CSM Battalion and a Deamon Battalion. My CSM Battalion has a Deamon Prince warlord. Can he take the Skullreaver if I pay 1CP for it?
Why would you want to take the Skullreaver on a CSMDP? The Daemon version gets +1S and +1A as well as re-roll charging.
andysonic1 wrote: Question that may be in an FAQ: I have a CSM Battalion and a Deamon Battalion. My CSM Battalion has a Deamon Prince warlord. Can he take the Skullreaver if I pay 1CP for it?
Why would you want to take the Skullreaver on a CSMDP? The Daemon version gets +1S and +1A as well as re-roll charging.
Because he gives reroll 1's to BOTH CSM and Deamons, and I have a mixed force that utilizes Blood Slaughterers. I also use JuggerHeralds, so the Deamon Prince will always be in range of the reroll charge, and World Eaters Deamon Prince gets +1A on the charge anyways. With the Weapon he'll be strength 11 on the charge instead of strength 12 (Herald nearby), which could be a big deal but most things make the jump from toughness 5 to 7 anyways so not normally a big deal. You lose almost nothing and gain an aura that meshes your Deamonkin army.
Um... can he wield that? I don't think Skullreaver can be on anything but a Bloodthirster. AKA, I KNOW it can't take it. Unless the reader f'd up. But he read everything word for word.
It makes sense, most artifacts are like "+1 str" "+2 AP". DP is nowhere near the D6 and D3 mortal wounds power level
rvd1ofakind wrote: Um... can he wield that? I don't think Skullreaver can be on anything but a Bloodthirster. AKA, I KNOW it can't take it. Unless the reader f'd up. But he read everything word for word.
It makes sense, most artifacts are like "+1 str" "+2 AP". DP is nowhere near the D6 and D3 mortal wounds power level
The Chaos Daemons Codex includes Heldrake and Knight rules? And the two Primarchs? And lists Chaos Spawn as FA?
Huh. If this is accurate, you could take an all CSM army with a Flyer Wing of three Heldrakes, or a Super-Heavy Detachment of Magnus, and all your Obliterators and Decimators and Legion DPs could benefit from CD Stratagems.
The Chaos Daemons Codex includes Heldrake and Knight rules? And the two Primarchs? And lists Chaos Spawn as FA?
Huh. If this is accurate, you could take an all CSM army with a Flyer Wing of three Heldrakes, or a Super-Heavy Detachment of Magnus, and all your Obliterators and Decimators and Legion DPs could benefit from CD Stratagems.
Do they also get access to Locis then?
Magnus with access to an ability where he ignores a units shooting if they hit him with a certain dice roll, hmmm. Not game breaking but icing on the cake maybe?
The Chaos Daemons Codex includes Heldrake and Knight rules? And the two Primarchs? And lists Chaos Spawn as FA?
Huh. If this is accurate, you could take an all CSM army with a Flyer Wing of three Heldrakes, or a Super-Heavy Detachment of Magnus, and all your Obliterators and Decimators and Legion DPs could benefit from CD Stratagems.
Do they also get access to Locis then?
Magnus with access to an ability where he ignores a units shooting if they hit him with a certain dice roll, hmmm. Not game breaking but icing on the cake maybe?
Magnus with access to an ability where he ignores a units shooting if they hit him with a certain dice roll, hmmm. Not game breaking but icing on the cake maybe?
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
The question now because: since the Deamon Prince has the required keywords, can he take a Deamon Artifact?
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
The question now because: since the Deamon Prince has the required keywords, can he take a Deamon Artifact?
Ah, didn't know about that FAQ (don't play DG). So now yes, RAW, the DP can take the artifact.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
The question now because: since the Deamon Prince has the required keywords, can he take a Deamon Artifact?
Ah, didn't know about that FAQ (don't play DG). So now yes, RAW, the DP can take the artifact.
I updated my summary, which means it has more things than the codex.
Things in the codex are index things + new nurgle stuff + chaos spawn - slaanesh heralds on mounts
I added some chaos daemons from csm and I'll try to add all, since they can use the rules from the codex
The Chaos Daemons Codex includes Heldrake and Knight rules? And the two Primarchs? And lists Chaos Spawn as FA?
Huh. If this is accurate, you could take an all CSM army with a Flyer Wing of three Heldrakes, or a Super-Heavy Detachment of Magnus, and all your Obliterators and Decimators and Legion DPs could benefit from CD Stratagems.
You can't because CSM model don't have the daemons and <chaos daemon of> (cant temember the exact wording) factiom keywords. As such they cant om thier own benefit from chaos daemons stuff, and tjey cant om thier own activate any of the chaos daemons stratagems/relics/spells .
You'll need an actual chaos daemons detachment base up of only models from the chaos daemons codex.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I updated my summary, which means it has more things than the codex.
Things in the codex are index things + new nurgle stuff + chaos spawn - slaanesh heralds on mounts
I added some chaos daemons from csm and I'll try to add all, since they can use the rules from the codex
I'm a little confused: are Heldrakes and Chaos Spawn in the Deamons Codex now? Were more things added in?
rvd1ofakind wrote: I updated my summary, which means it has more things than the codex.
Things in the codex are index things + new nurgle stuff + chaos spawn - slaanesh heralds on mounts
I added some chaos daemons from csm and I'll try to add all, since they can use the rules from the codex
I'm a little confused: are Heldrakes and Chaos Spawn in the Deamons Codex now? Were more things added in?
No, he only things in the book are the things you'd expect to be in the book. I.e. the normal daemon suspects. Spawn are only in there as a reference because some models have the ability to turn other models into spawn.
its definitly the most meh when you've got a mixed daemons force. It could be used with screams, but i dont think i'd take screamers in mixed daemons.
Ideally i think melee whise you'll ahve your blood letter bomb and nurglings as those are the two fastest and strongest melee forces we have.
How would you guys run a tzeentch detachment???
honestly, i think i want to jsut run a supreme command:
LoC Herald tzentch (either of foot or on disc)
Herald of Tzeentch (or other god herald)
Then just summon any horrors of flamers i want. I'm kinda not to big on the exalted flamers just because the -1 to hit on thier heavy attack is really lame, but if you went against some one who was all mech you'd atleast have the option of summoning them.
Alternatively an
LoC Hereald of Tzneetch
2x min.brimstones
1x 20-30pink horror squad
squad of flamers
using the deep strike stratagem to get horrors and or flamers where they need to be, but i feel like it eats into the mild flexibility you get, as horrors are better against guard, and flamers are better again marine types. Here you'd lose the option of summoning exalted flamers.
Personally i like the small supreme command with a none tzeentch herald if you are running mixed daemons. It save you some points and give you more flexibility. You really only need 1 tzeentch herald as that herald can be in charge of giving +1 to wound to your flamers or heralds, and it can also giv eit +1 str aura which in alot of cases is a +2 to wound swing total. Additionaly as you can only give the +1 to wound to just one unit, it is most effective to just summon either the flamers or the horrors and give them the buffs.
As i've stated before i think the LoC is just plain good. He's super tough with relics and warlord traits, and he put out pretty decent mortal wound based damage, and can be super charged by feeding a CP into it each turn.
What other tzneetch detachment ideas do you folks have??
Have to admit I was super stoked when I read the Slaneesh psycker ability to fight during psychic phase. Allowing a 3CP Ability (Khorne) on a Slaneesh char who passes a pyschic test is nice - but then realized model had to be in combat at the beginning of psychic phase. This means either someone charged you or you charged something which stayed in combat for an entire turn.
Now I'm not even sure it is worth taking - I can see some melee heavy armies where it has some spunk but (in general) with quicksilver quickness you are hitting first anyway. Moved from a "wow" for me to a "probably not worth taking." Anyone with some experience have advice how to keep these in combat? Probably the only unit I can see someone staying on might be daemonettes?
orkswubwub wrote: Have to admit I was super stoked when I read the Slaneesh psycker ability to fight during psychic phase. Allowing a 3CP Ability (Khorne) on a Slaneesh char who passes a pyschic test is nice - but then realized model had to be in combat at the beginning of psychic phase. This means either someone charged you or you charged something which stayed in combat for an entire turn.
Now I'm not even sure it is worth taking - I can see some melee heavy armies where it has some spunk but (in general) with quicksilver quickness you are hitting first anyway. Moved from a "wow" for me to a "probably not worth taking." Anyone with some experience have advice how to keep these in combat? Probably the only unit I can see someone staying on might be daemonettes?
I mean skarbrand naturally but besides.
Fiends of Slaanesh would be your best bet on staying locked in combat (assuming their ability hasn't changed). The psychic power is fairly situational, but I can see it being useful if you need to finish off a unit and charge into a different one in the same turn.
orkswubwub wrote: Have to admit I was super stoked when I read the Slaneesh psycker ability to fight during psychic phase. Allowing a 3CP Ability (Khorne) on a Slaneesh char who passes a pyschic test is nice - but then realized model had to be in combat at the beginning of psychic phase. This means either someone charged you or you charged something which stayed in combat for an entire turn.
Now I'm not even sure it is worth taking - I can see some melee heavy armies where it has some spunk but (in general) with quicksilver quickness you are hitting first anyway. Moved from a "wow" for me to a "probably not worth taking." Anyone with some experience have advice how to keep these in combat? Probably the only unit I can see someone staying on might be daemonettes?
I mean skarbrand naturally but besides.
Actualy the spell is amazing, but it's in a faction that struggles to use it .
In competive 40knwhen you get into melee the idea is to surround and only get 1 or 3 of your models in range to do attacks. Then just use pile one to get a better surround. This holds the unit ransp m until your opponents turn, and protects your units from shooting. Then you kill the unit in your opponents fight phase. What makes the spell pretty good is that it gives you insurance that you will kill the ransom unit in your psykic phase should you fail to clean it up in your opponents turn.
However daemonettes fail a but here and most of daemons do as well as they arnt durable enough to stay locked in combat for multiple turns against anything. And usually a wise opponent will just charge more stuff into melee, as even terrible attack will kill them.
And while thorne are just as fragile (basicly with demonnettes and bloodletters being guardsmen). The Khorne models will atleast do ALOT of damage to the units that counter charge on top of the units they start engaged with. Even more so the bloodletters get buffed if some one charges them double thier attacks and getting another str. Where as daemonettes just get to swing first which can be good in some circumstances.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
The question now because: since the Deamon Prince has the required keywords, can he take a Deamon Artifact?
Ah, didn't know about that FAQ (don't play DG). So now yes, RAW, the DP can take the artifact.
It depends on the wording in the Chaos Daemons codex. If it's similar to the Blood Angels codex which uses the faction keyword in capital bold letters in the relic section, then by RAW it would be allowed if the keywords are the same for the DP in the CSM book and CD book.
If it's similar to how the Chaos Space Marine codex spells out 'Chaos Space Marine' units in the CSM relic section and doesn't use faction keywords to denote Chaos Daemons, then those relics will be restricted to models from the Chaos Daemons book.
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems.
The question now because: since the Deamon Prince has the required keywords, can he take a Deamon Artifact?
Ah, didn't know about that FAQ (don't play DG). So now yes, RAW, the DP can take the artifact.
It depends on the wording in the Chaos Daemons codex. If it's similar to the Blood Angels codex which uses the faction keyword in capital bold letters in the relic section, then by RAW it would be allowed if the keywords are the same for the DP in the CSM book and CD book.
If it's similar to how the Chaos Space Marine codex spells out 'Chaos Space Marine' units in the CSM relic section and doesn't use faction keywords to denote Chaos Daemons, then those relics will be restricted to models from the Chaos Daemons book.
From the guy attempting to copy the codex word for word from reviews, it supposedly says something to the effect of:
Your army can have 1 extra relic from Hellforged Artifacts for 1 CP. Or 2 for 3CP. All of the relics must be different and be given to different Chaos Daemon Characters. Can only use this once.
It was also noted by the previous leaker and the reviewers that the Daemons faction keyword is never mentioned as a <keyword> anywhere in the book. This heavily implies that you just need the Daemon keyword anywhere on the datasheet.
so...that strategem to improve invul save of a unit of daemons by 1. If I plonk down a Lord of Skulls and then use that strategem, my LOS now becomes 4++ ?
I wonder how many armies want to try shooting at a Lord of skulls with T8, 28 wounds and a 4++ save... lol
The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.
knas wrote: So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:
1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%
The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.
It's most certainly a raw deal for the god of change, but you know?? i still think tzneetch is a pretty good spot?
It has 3 units that are al lviable and have good targets (horrors, Flamers, Exalted flamers), and a strong greater daemon in the form of the LoC. Spell wise i think it's hit or miss outside of the 2 i'd just strictly limit to the lord of change (infernal gate and bolt of change). the +1 to wound helps capitalize on those big 3 units, and the reroll spell could be an okay source of fake CP generation in a mono tzeentch list. I think if your are mixxing you probably won't have too much space for a 2nd herald to cast that spell.
I guess the idea of the loci is to provide defense against melee armies as tzeentch doesn't have any access to anti melee. Brimstones a an amazing bubble wrap still as they serve as cheap rode black for melee armies, but they become next to useless now if your opponent has any form of decent shooting.
Funny enough all of the above (the good and the bad). Might make tzeentch the most common chaos daemons. As any other list splashing will most likely take some tzeentch force as you're good to go with a herald and a few of the big 3. While the LoC makes a great chaos daemons warlord as a very durable center piece whose mortal wound damage make him good at suring up holes in a list.
knas wrote: So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:
1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%
The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.
It's most certainly a raw deal for the god of change, but you know?? i still think tzneetch is a pretty good spot?
It has 3 units that are al lviable and have good targets (horrors, Flamers, Exalted flamers), and a strong greater daemon in the form of the LoC. Spell wise i think it's hit or miss outside of the 2 i'd just strictly limit to the lord of change (infernal gate and bolt of change). the +1 to wound helps capitalize on those big 3 units, and the reroll spell could be an okay source of fake CP generation in a mono tzeentch list. I think if your are mixxing you probably won't have too much space for a 2nd herald to cast that spell.
I guess the idea of the loci is to provide defense against melee armies as tzeentch doesn't have any access to anti melee. Brimstones a an amazing bubble wrap still as they serve as cheap rode black for melee armies, but they become next to useless now if your opponent has any form of decent shooting.
Funny enough all of the above (the good and the bad). Might make tzeentch the most common chaos daemons. As any other list splashing will most likely take some tzeentch force as you're good to go with a herald and a few of the big 3. While the LoC makes a great chaos daemons warlord as a very durable center piece whose mortal wound damage make him good at suring up holes in a list.
It's definitely misleading looking at just the loci and expecting them to be balanced across gods (since they affect so many different units), I just wish it would have been an ability that worked a bit more reliably. Tzeentch got a little less specialized than it was in the index where it was one of the top defensive choices with 4++,-1 to hit and super cheap unnerfed brimms. The new buffs in other areas make Tzeentch a bit more accessible and a bit more fun overall to play with and against so I like the codex fort he most part.
Really hoping people are right about the artifacts making the LoC viable too
For the Loc The artefact plus warlord trait who reduce dommage by one make him realy hard to kill. So He can make his points doing mortal wounds a long time.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.
wow. Why is he even there...
He’s not got Bile’s ability to not break purity? Wow. Disappoint.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
orkswubwub wrote: If A CSM Casts delightful agonies on an obliterator - the FNP is a 5+++ or a 6+++?
Why would it be 6+++? The wording of the Power is pretty clear that it’s a 5+++.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.
wow. Why is he even there...
1. His model is tiny and he can easily hide.
2. He has the only 'always on' Aura in-faction that modifies enemy leadership.
3. He benefits from the new Character targeting rules.
4. He hits a like a truck with -5ap and flat 3 dmg. (You can give him the warlord trait to get 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's for 21dmg. This will get through more often than not thanks to Death Hex).
5. He is more durable than a regular prince (without the relic) since he gets to reroll failed saves.
6. He is 2" faster than a regular daemon prince.
7. He brings Death Hex and Warptime to CDs without going out of faction or detachment.
8. The new stratagem lets him deepstrike.
I run him with a unit of 6 Flamers as a screen (12 wounds of T4 & 4++ that nobody wants to charge) casting Smite and Death Hex until he is in position to charge himself usually by turn 2.
knas wrote: So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:
1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%
The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.
You've misinterpreted that, if it was done before re-rolls, and your opponent had re-roll all misses, then they would be able to re-roll. In your case, they would still be able to re-roll 1s because that 1 would be a fail to hit. Because it is done after re-rolls, it means your opponent can't re-roll missed hits due to the Tzeentch Loci.
If it were before re-rolls then the Tzeentch Loci would be beyond useless.
knas wrote: So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:
1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%
The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.
You've misinterpreted that, if it was done before re-rolls, and your opponent had re-roll all misses, then they would be able to re-roll. In your case, they would still be able to re-roll 1s because that 1 would be a fail to hit. Because it is done after re-rolls, it means your opponent can't re-roll missed hits due to the Tzeentch Loci.
If it were before re-rolls then the Tzeentch Loci would be beyond useless.
i'm following your logic. Thats a decent enough reason. Though it could just as easily say those attacks count as misses and, can not be re-rolled.
Another bright note for the loci i think it gives room for some sort of melee tzeentch. WIth DPs, Screamers, LoCs, and maybe chariots??? Thats looking at it on the bright of possible side.
On this small bright note. The LoC is pretty okay with baleful sword, as it's the only model that benefits from all the boons, from boon of change. Seeing as how +1str brings him to STR 8 with the sword, +1 T brings him to T8, and +1 attack is just always gravy. Just a small side thought. Not sure of a melee focused tzeentch is all that good as it doesn't jump out at me, but i haven't really sat down and gave it much thought.
knas wrote: So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:
1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%
The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.
You've misinterpreted that, if it was done before re-rolls, and your opponent had re-roll all misses, then they would be able to re-roll. In your case, they would still be able to re-roll 1s because that 1 would be a fail to hit. Because it is done after re-rolls, it means your opponent can't re-roll missed hits due to the Tzeentch Loci.
If it were before re-rolls then the Tzeentch Loci would be beyond useless.
Ah I thought it made you discard the dice not just fail it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.
wow. Why is he even there...
1. His model is tiny and he can easily hide.
2. He has the only 'always on' Aura in-faction that modifies enemy leadership.
3. He benefits from the new Character targeting rules.
4. He hits a like a truck with -5ap and flat 3 dmg. (You can give him the warlord trait to get 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's for 21dmg. This will get through more often than not thanks to Death Hex).
5. He is more durable than a regular prince (without the relic) since he gets to reroll failed saves.
6. He is 2" faster than a regular daemon prince.
7. He brings Death Hex and Warptime to CDs without going out of faction or detachment.
8. The new stratagem lets him deepstrike.
I run him with a unit of 6 Flamers as a screen (12 wounds of T4 & 4++ that nobody wants to charge) casting Smite and Death Hex until he is in position to charge himself usually by turn 2.
Yup. He may well be a tad overcosted, but seriously, don’t underestimate the utility of access to Death Hex. Tango with various Space Wolf lists and see.
Breaking monolatrism might be an issue in mono detachments, but on the other hand it means there’s no opportunity cost to having him lead a Spearhead of a Skull Cannon, Burning Chariot, and giant Chaos Spawn.
Incidentally, he’s lost Warptime, but then you need a HERETIC ASTARTES unit to cast it on anyway, whereupon you might as well add a Sorcerer/DP and this & that and make a LEGION Detachment of it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Whelp, Be'lakor was slaughtered
1. Used to cost too much. Now up 40 pts???
2. Breaks specific god detachments
3. Doesn't benefit from god buffs.
wow. Why is he even there...
1. His model is tiny and he can easily hide.
2. He has the only 'always on' Aura in-faction that modifies enemy leadership.
3. He benefits from the new Character targeting rules.
4. He hits a like a truck with -5ap and flat 3 dmg. (You can give him the warlord trait to get 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's for 21dmg. This will get through more often than not thanks to Death Hex).
5. He is more durable than a regular prince (without the relic) since he gets to reroll failed saves.
6. He is 2" faster than a regular daemon prince.
7. He brings Death Hex and Warptime to CDs without going out of faction or detachment.
8. The new stratagem lets him deepstrike.
I run him with a unit of 6 Flamers as a screen (12 wounds of T4 & 4++ that nobody wants to charge) casting Smite and Death Hex until he is in position to charge himself usually by turn 2.
Yup. He may well be a tad overcosted, but seriously, don’t underestimate the utility of access to Death Hex. Tango with various Space Wolf lists and see.
Breaking monolatrism might be an issue in mono detachments, but on the other hand it means there’s no opportunity cost to having him lead a Spearhead of a Skull Cannon, Burning Chariot, and giant Chaos Spawn.
Incidentally, he’s lost Warptime, but then you need a HERETIC ASTARTES unit to cast it on anyway, whereupon you might as well add a Sorcerer/DP and this & that and make a LEGION Detachment of it.
I loved using Be'Lakor with my CSM Deamons units for Warp Time and the bubble buff, but losing Warp Time and the benefits of the Daemon codex will probably make me proxy it to a Daemon Prince now (although might be unfair considering the model size difference...).
So, I have 6 bases of the old metal Nurglings. Anyone know if the new ones are easy to break up and space out? It's gonna look wierd to have some bases with 4 Nurglings and some with 12+.
On the topic of Nurglings, are they our best screener unit?
I screened my last two games with 20 Flesh Hounds across my deployment zone. Mine are based on the larger round bases, so they spanned my entire edge. They easily catch all the incoming wounds and have enough speed to be an unavoidable threat. Also, I can push one edge or the other up to open the way for the next wave, or pull from one end or the other as they die. I also run a 10 man unit of Bloodletters directly behind them and in front of the characters just in case the Hounds are focused down.
I don't think this will be considered "optimal", but its working pretty well so far, especially in conjunction with the bomb to act as the anvil while the hounds + anything behind them are the hammer.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, I have 6 bases of the old metal Nurglings. Anyone know if the new ones are easy to break up and space out? It's gonna look wierd to have some bases with 4 Nurglings and some with 12+.
On the topic of Nurglings, are they our best screener unit?
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, I have 6 bases of the old metal Nurglings. Anyone know if the new ones are easy to break up and space out? It's gonna look wierd to have some bases with 4 Nurglings and some with 12+.
On the topic of Nurglings, are they our best screener unit?
They are not easy to break up at all.
Yea, for the most part totally different concept to the previous Nurgling swarms:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Nurglings are taken for 2 things only - scout and troop filler. And since scout is invaluable - I take 2+ always.
Screen is still horrors or plaguebearers
honestly thats not true anymore.
Nurglings i think are better than plaguebears when you buff both up to max.
Nurglings can be buffed with the piper for +1 attack, Poxbringer (herald) for +1 str, that same herald can give them +1 to wound, and then another poxbringer or GUO can give the target -1 toughness. Since the nurglings scout a unit of 9 can stretch accross the table so they can get a turn onie charge, and with the piper they can advance and charge meaning they will beable to really get into there even if they stretch out accross the table. Even more so whenb backed up by a GUO 2 units of 9 that stretch back to his aura can benefit from the bell. Durability wise the nurglings are just slightly less durable than the plague bearers against most attacks, and it isn't worth it for your opponent to put in lascannons and such to MAAAAybe kill a 4 wound base worth 18 pts. Against T3 you can get to 2+ to wound 5 attacks each, and 3+ to wound 5 attacks each. ALso bring the piper will help your GUO, and not plague bearers so there is a lot of syngery between those 3 or 4 models. again turn 1 charge with out needing to deep strike them <.< and they are troops give you lots of CP is goooood stuff, on top of any scouting/screenign they do they for the rest of your army.
Plaguebearers are less likely to get that turn one charge no matter how you place them on the table. They dont really benefit from the bell on the GUO. If you get down to 2+ to wound the reroll on the plague sword isnt' any better than that of what the nurglings get rerolling 1s. Once the plague bearer unit drops below 20 models (which means you only have to kill 10 at -1. They plagyue bearers are actually less durable than the nurglings against most forms of shooting.
Then when it comes to actually playing the game. I think after turn 1, most ofthe buffs like -1 toughness and +1 to wound you'll want aiding your GUO as he get waaaay more milage out of it than the plague bears will with thier no rend As other than fighting other daemons players those abilities that give you bonus damage aren't worth jack on models that have no AP, as most targets with multiple wounds have really nice armor saves you need to get past. As such doubing your damage and getting the extra damage on 6s with a GUO with bileblade or bileword, or even the locus on the plague flail will go ALOT futher on the GUO than you'll end up getting from a bunch of plague bearer attacks.
Lastly in mixed daemons the plaguebearers are way to expensive to buff up needing a ton of investment of low damage HQs that are trying to funnel buffs into the plague bears to realy see them being worth while. While on the other hand the nugling package of GUO/Poxbring/Piper will get you pretty much all the way home, and the GUO will also beable to benefit from all the models and buffs once the nurglings have cleared the field for him to get down to business.
As such in competive play i think you'll quickly see nurglings catching on in more ways than just lowly scouts, and might start phasing out plague bearers in favor of nurglings.
TLDR:
Plaguebearers lose -1 after 20 model and then become about as durable or less durable than your average nurgling base for screen.
Nurglings need Poxbringer/Piper/ GUO w/ bell to get the most out of them, and they can turn 1 charge
For the same thing Plaguebearers need Poxbringer/ Scrivener/ horticulus/ multiple summoned gnarl roots (each of which cost points btw), and needs at least a turn to make it into combat. maaaaybe two.
From as I get it, you can buy one to three Feculent Gnarlmaws for 50 each. And you must set them up on using the rules for their deployment.
Slimuxs ability says you can place a maw at the end of the movement phase, if your army contains one already and nowhere it is mentioned that
You should pay them in your list. Apart from the starting ones. Am I right here or...?
Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.
I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.
The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.
I loved using Be'Lakor with my CSM Deamons units for Warp Time and the bubble buff, but losing Warp Time and the benefits of the Daemon codex will probably make me proxy it to a Daemon Prince now (although might be unfair considering the model size difference...).
Eh, I wouldn't worry about the size difference, Be'lakor is larger than the old metal daemon prince.
avedominusnox wrote: From as I get it, you can buy one to three Feculent Gnarlmaws for 50 each. And you must set them up on using the rules for their deployment.
Slimuxs ability says you can place a maw at the end of the movement phase, if your army contains one already and nowhere it is mentioned that
You should pay them in your list. Apart from the starting ones. Am I right here or...?
fortifications are units. as per the FAQ in sudden death rules
Spoiler:
Furthermore, do
not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield
Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the....
and in the reinforcement points section it spells out:
"each time a unit is added to your army, you must first subtract the bnumber of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points"
and while after set up they aren't in your army via thier rules. to set them up they first most be in your army via horticulous's rules. as such each time you use his ability it will cost you 50 reinforcement points ontop of the 50 reinforcement points for having the first one set up in your army..
Also i do believe that each model cost 50 points as well so if you want to set up the 3 model unit thats 150pts, but i could be wrong on this.
reguardless that gets expensive fast, and is why i kind of dont rate plaguebearers.
Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.
I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.
The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.
I expected this to happen. Honestly they should have avoided all cross-codex combinations of relics and stratagems from the start. It opens up too many abusive combinations that I doubt they even thought about during 'play-testing.' At this point I'm not sure why this doesn't make it in the codex and instead needs an FAQ to address after release.
It just proves to me that their outdated codex system needs to be changed.
Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.
I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.
The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.
Eh, my dreams of deep striking 2 bloodthirsters and a squad of 30 bloodletters is still alive and kicking so I am all good lol.
But yeah, cross codex stratagem shenanigans make things harder to play test. Though if it does survive the faq I will be surprised that's for sure.
So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
"Take what you can, and give nothing back!"
What I meant to say was that. Wasn't that how Imperium Soup has always been played? You get the best of sisters in Celestine, throw in IG, and Robute Gulliman or whatever is your favourite SM faction, and you still get to use all the strategems and units happily.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
"Take what you can, and give nothing back!"
What I meant to say was that. Wasn't that how Imperium Soup has always been played? You get the best of sisters in Celestine, throw in IG, and Robute Gulliman or whatever is your favourite SM faction, and you still get to use all the strategems and units happily.
Yes and no.
Yes you combine the armies and get to get great things for both.
however in this case it's abit more like you're robbing them of what makes them neat. For instance imperial guard as they are now can use thier own stratagems and relics on thier own character, but the space marine units can't use most or almost any of them. instead the space marines ahve to use thier own stuff. Where as the daemons as we sort of know them now you can basicly just take the best CSM list you have right now, space in some cost nothing daemons units, and take advantage of stratagems, and relics if you are willing to sacrifice your warlord.
So it's pretty different as in your example the IG stuff are the only ones who can use the IG stratagems, and the space marine stuff is the only ones that can use the space marine stratagems.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
Not really a big nerf... in fact, I'd argue it's more viable in many cases to deepstrick that 'letterbomb, flamers, Thirsters, et el, as opposed to Magtarion.
Make your opponent deal with the DS'ers, while Magtarion mosey up the board uncontested.
How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
Baleful sword:
When you do the math, you will find out that the Sword is better against everything with a 3+ or better Save and also against everything T6+. The Staff only becomes better against things with good invulnerables (4+ and such) with low T or against mass infantry. The -1 to hit will compensate with the +1S and -1DS easily and make it better.
Staff:
This thing has just 2 advantages really showing. First you can take the staff of +1 to cast Smite, but arguably you will most often take the 3++ anyway. Second you can cast smite outside the range of a psyker and circumvent the deny of the enemy. This can be nice, but I think you will always go pretty close with the LoC. Otherwise you would waste his melee capabilities and just a magic battery for 330 points is way too expensive.
Conclusion:
Take the sword most of the time and also use it!
Ps: If you use more than one LoC, you could very well give the second one the staff and the +1 to smite and +1 to cast first spell. This will increase your odds of doing D6 wounds with smite to about 55%!
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
if the 10 points make the difference between wings ona daemon prince or an extra exalted flamer. than i'd probably consider it.
In fact in the list (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/748372.page#9780206) i'm working on it cost me 2 blood letters to take the sword ,and i wonder is it worth it??? 2 blood letters that will almost always make combat every game or a sword that has a chance of making combat... hmmmm
As far as I can tell the consensus is that the LoC can be considered to be at least somewhat competative while Kairos is hardly considered at al. Still, the difference is 40 points which buys d3 CP, one spell and deny/turn, acces to a lot of spells, 36" smite and a S8 D6 dam weapon. Seems quite decent doesn't it? What am I overlooking?
Cilithan wrote: As far as I can tell the consensus is that the LoC can be considered to be at least somewhat competative while Kairos is hardly considered at al. Still, the difference is 40 points which buys d3 CP, one spell and deny/turn, acces to a lot of spells, 36" smite and a S8 D6 dam weapon. Seems quite decent doesn't it? What am I overlooking?
Kairos can't take the robe relic (no ++3 save) and has a fixed warlord trait. (No perils on 1 1).
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
if the 10 points make the difference between wings ona daemon prince or an extra exalted flamer. than i'd probably consider it.
In fact in the list (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/748372.page#9780206) i'm working on it cost me 2 blood letters to take the sword ,and i wonder is it worth it??? 2 blood letters that will almost always make combat every game or a sword that has a chance of making combat... hmmmm
If your LoC does not make it into combat, he will never justify his points. So why even bother taking one? Imho you should also beat up something in melee with such an expensive non-shooting model.
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
if the 10 points make the difference between wings ona daemon prince or an extra exalted flamer. than i'd probably consider it.
In fact in the list (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/748372.page#9780206) i'm working on it cost me 2 blood letters to take the sword ,and i wonder is it worth it??? 2 blood letters that will almost always make combat every game or a sword that has a chance of making combat... hmmmm
If your LoC does not make it into combat, he will never justify his points. So why even bother taking one? Imho you should also beat up something in melee with such an expensive non-shooting model.
Man internet folks always get waay up your butt if you dont say "man what you said is right. I like your thing."
1st: odds are most things in your army won't make thier points back as they will die before they are given the chance to do. And since not all of your units are gin a share the enemy army evenly, odds are some units might double thier points and other might not make any of thier points back in the sense of killing. It's the nature of the game
2nd:I did say I'd take the sword or neither.
3rd neither is a fine enough option as the staff of change still exist and can still kill things, but what is the most reliable part of his kit is that he can cast 2 or 3 spells and get some mortal wounds of every turn he stays up.
4th: From there it depends on how likely, you are to get a lord of change into melee. If so how likely is that that target is something like a land raider or leman russ where you are super stoked to get his melee attacks. How likely are you to take your LoC into melee to go do abit of feisty cuffs woth Magnus the red or mortarion. Heck or even risk a tussle with lots girlymon. As the LOC is most likely to be mixing it up with rather soft fair. If say the staff is probably gonna do the job just fine for stabbing at various forms of elite infantry.
I think when you consider all that. The sword is abit vestigial in the it won't really do a whole ton for you. So maybe some times you might consider spend those 10 points else where
Edit as far him making his points back he's got pretty good odds on d6 smites and infernal gates, and he can pick characters out with bolt of change. He is durable enough to get a turn 2 as long as you definitly dont deep strike the guy into rapid fire range as those sorts of weapons are his weakness.
His turn two is better as now you are close enough to force infernal gate way on your opponent, and if he spread his stuff you might have a nice hole in enemy line where you can make a good charge. This might be a good place for said sword, but what if your opponent brought nothing but infantry sauads?? Now the sword is really getting mileage there. Against marines your just trading 2s to hit for 2s to wound (with a herald) and another ap. Which probably doesn't even math out to a whole wounds worth of difference.
So maybe just consider neither. He's rather strong as is and it might effect your list. In the list I linked I take the blade, but i wonder... is it worth 2 blood letters.
A model doesn't need to make it into combat to justify it's points. If by getting deleted he lets other guys make it to the other side then that in itself is good, if he received an amount of fire to go down that justifies his cost.
Not saying that this is the case since i know little of daemons, just wanted to point out that "can get deleted turn 1 and never make his points back, so it is a bad model" means that no model short of a Mortarion is good.
Spoletta wrote: A model doesn't need to make it into combat to justify it's points. If by getting deleted he lets other guys make it to the other side then that in itself is good, if he received an amount of fire to go down that justifies his cost.
Not saying that this is the case since i know little of daemons, just wanted to point out that "can get deleted turn 1 and never make his points back, so it is a bad model" means that no model short of a Mortarion is good.
The whole concept of units "making their points back" is a little misleading in the first place. Especially since, unless you table your opponent, your army as a whole has failed to make its points back.
I like the idea of a robed LoC running behind a bloodletter bomb headed by Skarbrand, though. Feel like most people will prioritize the bloodthirster character in front of them over the big bird in the distance. And Skarbrand should still do at least some work while he's alive.
Of course he will. Most everything in 8th will die if it gets focused. Generally speaking, offense has outpaced defense in this edition so that if you want any one thing dead, you can pretty often make it dead. I still think he will be worth taking as this only goes so far. Opponents will be hard pressed to deal with a bloodletter bomb, Skarbrand, and a LoC all in one or two turns.
Raulengrin wrote: The whole concept of units "making their points back" is a little misleading in the first place. Especially since, unless you table your opponent, your army as a whole has failed to make its points back.
I like the idea of a robed LoC running behind a bloodletter bomb headed by Skarbrand, though. Feel like most people will prioritize the bloodthirster character in front of them over the big bird in the distance. And Skarbrand should still do at least some work while he's alive.
The "idea" of a LoC is equally misleading, though. What does it do once it's on the table?
At the absolute most, using smite + melee, it kills a grand total of 11 Infantry models. Realistically, if it's running behind things, it will only be within range of a screen for the first two turns without being deep struck.
What is it doing?
It has little offense, it's bulk is pointless if it isn't actively doing anything.
The answer to any of the jobs you could assign a LoC is better assigned to either more troops, which end up having more bulk than the LoC across multiple bodies which nullify high STR high D weapons, and if the job is to do damage, it's better suited across other units. 2 units of 5/6 Flamers cost about as much as a LoC, use the same CP to deep strike, and will do more damage in a single turn than a LoC will do across an entire game.
Raulengrin wrote: The whole concept of units "making their points back" is a little misleading in the first place. Especially since, unless you table your opponent, your army as a whole has failed to make its points back.
I like the idea of a robed LoC running behind a bloodletter bomb headed by Skarbrand, though. Feel like most people will prioritize the bloodthirster character in front of them over the big bird in the distance. And Skarbrand should still do at least some work while he's alive.
The "idea" of a LoC is equally misleading, though. What does it do once it's on the table?
At the absolute most, using smite + melee, it kills a grand total of 11 Infantry models. Realistically, if it's running behind things, it will only be within range of a screen for the first two turns without being deep struck.
What is it doing?
It has little offense, it's bulk is pointless if it isn't actively doing anything.
The answer to any of the jobs you could assign a LoC is better assigned to either more troops, which end up having more bulk than the LoC across multiple bodies which nullify high STR high D weapons, and if the job is to do damage, it's better suited across other units. 2 units of 5/6 Flamers cost about as much as a LoC, use the same CP to deep strike, and will do more damage in a single turn than a LoC will do across an entire game.
I think you are too extreme. It can also deny and cast very reliably with +2 and can draw a lot of fire with the 3++ away from flamers and screamers. Also with infernal gate out could do a lot more than 11 wounds on infantry.
I don't think I'm being "extreme" I think I'm being realistic and specific.
I gave direct examples and wrote out only "Melee + Smite" and did not mention Gateway because it's high variance.
This is a tactics discussion, my friend. It's the competitive value of the model. There is no room for feelings or pedantic "it isn't THAT bad" comments. It just is what it is.
I own 4 of them, with the new model. I WANT them to be good, to be better. As it stands, they are what they are. If we're discussing their tactical value, we must do so honestly.
The role the model fits must justify the points. A LoC needed more love, something more fluffy. Hell, that they given them Magnus smites for 1d6-2d6 they instantly would of been worth it, even without a price drop.
Again, GW has their reasons for whatever they did, but I don't believe they did enough. It just doesn't do anything special.
2.36 damage a turn from smite
1.44 damage a turn from bol5 of change
1.643 on just infernal gate on a single target.
Mathing it out that's 5.443 damage a turn. Woth a 1 cp a turn investment.
So being charitable lets assume we want to target T8 tanks with our attack and compare it to exalted flamers (who out base eldar dark reapers and such):
At only ranged the LoC is only pulling down .0165 damage a turn with psykic powers. Which is pretty low
Comparing that to exalted flamers who out base dark reapers and crimson hunters for damage against vehicles most the time. We get .0296 damage/pts a turn you arnt moving, and .022 in turns where you do move. As the first turn you either won't be In Range or need to be summoned/deep strike in thats a the first tuen youll move and the 2nd turn your stand still (most likely) get you to a two turn average of: .0246 damage (dark reaper average anti tank damage a turn)
Now the LoC can take a baleful sword and assuming out flying greater daemon can make combat turn two, his 2nd turn damage/pts against our T8 tank (getting buffed by a herald). Puts you at .0266 damge/pts, and averaging out now at .0215 damage over two turns..
So in think the Loc does alright fur a big durable model whose tanking a large chunk of fire power for your army. Mind you it's not super realistic to adds your gonna be land s mites on tanks in turn 1, but turn 2 you can get him there pretty realisticly with his fly, and more so his infernal gate becomes much easier to set up come turn 2 as you'll be close enough to pick your closest model of choice, and as we only calculated for only hitting one unit that means your potential damage goes up quite abit.
We also didn't consider his turn 1 charge possibilities which I though about more on, and it's actually decently possible. With gaze of fate providing an out side reroll, and access to a CP reroll the LoC can reroll one or all of his charge dice. I don't think it's amazingly realistic as a pick reroll 1 or both 9" charge is only 50%, but you have a 50/50 shot of getting him in quick
So looking at that pretty holistic review. I think the Loc whilr alittle low damage is close enough that his high durability can make him a viable choice. I give him the a rating of "good."
Cephalobeard wrote: I don't think I'm being "extreme" I think I'm being realistic and specific.
I gave direct examples and wrote out only "Melee + Smite" and did not mention Gateway because it's high variance.
This is a tactics discussion, my friend. It's the competitive value of the model. There is no room for feelings or pedantic "it isn't THAT bad" comments. It just is what it is.
I own 4 of them, with the new model. I WANT them to be good, to be better. As it stands, they are what they are. If we're discussing their tactical value, we must do so honestly.
There is a difference between totally useless and amazing. I think you can run a LoC even in a tournament list with success. But we discussed this already.
The Lord of Change seems purpose built to be a Warlord and take the tanky trait plus relic to be an anchor for your army. Its' melee is alright, it's a great psyker, it's mobile and with the right combo it is incredibly hard to kill. I think it's worth it, you just gotta prioritize targets for it.
I'm really liking the look of the Burning Chariot. For its price, 6 S6 AP-3 2D attacks and 3 S5 AP-1 D1 attacks in combat is nasty, and the S5 AP-2 pistol flamer (it can shoot it while in combat) really adds up the damage. It'd pretty capably wipe out entire Primaris units by itself (not in one turn of course) provided it doesn't take too much damage moving up.
Yes and to be fair I agree that it could be way better. You would certainly always take Magnus instead, if you play max power. However, since the Primarchs will likely lose the deep strike strat, the LoC might find a niche.
Yeah. Could be. I intend on testing them. I'm not going to completely discount it off the bat. My expectations are low, so hopefully i'm pleasantly surprised and the model makes me kick the dirt, walk back here and report how silly I was once my Codex comes in.
The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.
Run a CSM Battalion of a Prince or Two, tons of cultists, then a Daemon Battalion of 1-2 Princes, Herald, then tons of Letters and spend 1 CP to give a Prince the Talisman of Burning Blood and take the Khorne relic mega axe. Proceed to blend.
andysonic1 wrote: The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.
The daemon prince with skullreaver has saddly killed all my blood thirster desire. that thing can hide behind all your chaffe, and then fly out and split a knight almost clean in half doing an average of something like 21 wounds to a knight in a single round of combat on average. All for 180 points yummy!!!
andysonic1 wrote: The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.
The daemon prince with skullreaver has saddly killed all my blood thirster desire. that thing can hide behind all your chaffe, and then fly out and split a knight almost clean in half doing an average of something like 21 wounds to a knight in a single round of combat on average. All for 180 points yummy!!!
Dat axe is pretty insane. I only have one Prince and I wanted him for my CSM side so he could give rerolls to both Battalions, like Caphalobeard said. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and go Daemons Prince, and take Dark Apostles + Exalted Champ combo instead.
andysonic1 wrote: The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.
The daemon prince with skullreaver has saddly killed all my blood thirster desire. that thing can hide behind all your chaffe, and then fly out and split a knight almost clean in half doing an average of something like 21 wounds to a knight in a single round of combat on average. All for 180 points yummy!!!
Dat axe is pretty insane. I only have one Prince and I wanted him for my CSM side so he could give rerolls to both Battalions, like Caphalobeard said. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and go Daemons Prince, and take Dark Apostles + Exalted Champ combo instead.
haha yeah i know how you feel, but many just imagining that daemon prince flying over and just ripping into anything seems pretty awesome. He can even do alright if you throw him at hordes with the mortal wounds.
So GUO how to kit him out???
Bell vs Sword
The bell i was one that thing for a while, but that only seems good if you are running a almost all nurgle daemons army, as then you can bring a lot of your stuff back and get good mileage out of the thing in one or two turns.
The Sword seems nice and killy and definitly seems the way to go in a mixed daemons list after some further pondering on it. The damage is nice, and virulence blessing loves that d6 damage.
Blade VS plail.
Blade wise if you are taking the bell you really want that blade. it's +1 to cast will continue to give you some of what you get out of the flail, while it also lets you keep a respectible melee profile. That +1 to cast on virulence bless means even more if you are swinging around a bilesword as well.
Flail this one i think is more of a toss up if you have the sword. As now you are just weighing the chances of +1 to cast vs the flails attack. The +1 to cast can go on things like virulence blessing and nurgles rott to recoupe what you lose from the flail.
Spells:
while they vary from game to game i think there might be atleast a few spell that he needs to take.
Nurgles rot, i think is sort of required on the GUO to help him recoupe his points, and the bile blade can help get you over that 7 casting value more reliably. This spell for me feels like the GUO pay off.
Viruelence blessing in the same way with that bile blade you can more reliably use this ability, and i think if you plan to take this spell you really want the blade. As you'll be casting this more offten than something like nurgles rot that is range prohibited.
Miasma is good, but i think since the GUO is gonna be lumbering up to the enemy. You really want a poxbringer to cast this on your GUO from afar so he can be out of dispell range. It's also easy to cast so if you bring the flail this might be a spell you take on your GUO.
Shirvel pox is great if you are running mixed daemons, but again its pretty easy to get off so i'd leave this to a flail GUO or a poxbringer.
The other spells to me don't rate, atleast not for a GUO to cast.
People have got blinders on so focused on damage. The point of a LoC from the few games I've run with one is to be a model that can't be ignored because of the massive disruption potential when he gets in medium to close range, and yet makes a gakky target for your opponent because he takes way too much shooting and other resources to effectively remove.
If you're taking a LoC for damage and not for the ability to make the enemy rethink the entire game plan they had, I don't know what to tell you
arhurt wrote: And Soul Grinders are still crap, am I right? Weak shooting (with -1 to hit due to heavy weapon profile) and too costly for what it does.
+1. I was excited to see defilers get that huge points drop, I was hoping SG would get a similar treatment, or at least something more to differentiate it.
arhurt wrote: And Soul Grinders are still crap, am I right? Weak shooting (with -1 to hit due to heavy weapon profile) and too costly for what it does.
+1. I was excited to see defilers get that huge points drop, I was hoping SG would get a similar treatment, or at least something more to differentiate it.
I'm not sure what you mean here - they're differentiated pretty well right now because of the price drop. With the price drop a Defiler is ... well ... it;s ok. The Souldgrinder is a gigantic flaming bag of dog poop. Very different. See? Now you can be happy.
We should also consider Karanak if we want to negate enemy's psy phase. For just 70 points, that doggy grants two denies each turn.
And if that's not enough. Add on the relic, plus a few units of flesh hounds and you should have tons of denial during the psychic phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Opps, I meant to post on this thread. posted on the CSM tactics thread instead.
A more important thing to consider now. With the new daemon codex and the new nifty deep strike strategems, is a full melee army (whether Khorne or Slanaash) now a viable option?
It hasn't been so far, but that was because horde bubble wrap and the power of shooting made melee armies run into major problems trying to get to the really juicy stuff at the back of an opponents army.
Now, we can deep strike in 60 bloodletters for 3 CP, who can do 120 attacks. That would likely clear away most chaff while remaining a substantial threat that still must be dealt with.
The rest of the melee army can then run up the board as per normal. The key thing is that 60 bloodletters barely cost 420 points. That's less than 20% of a 2000 point army. So, you can load the rest of your army with all sorts of other melee units, scary characters and such.
Another tactic I was thinking of was the multi wave bloodletter bomb. Imagine a 1st wave of 60 bloodletters to clear the chaff, with a second wave of another 60 blood letters waiting in deepstrike reserve to come in on the second turn. So, maybe the first wave of 60 bloodletters gets shot up and destroyed after clearing the chaff. But now, there is no longer any bubble wrap left to stop the second wave of 60 letters deep striking in to wreck havoc.
You need 120 bloodletters and 6 cp. But the whole thing only cost 840 points, which is still less than half your army points for a typical 2000 point army.
I think full melee armies will still have issues unless they have a lot of speed and enough units that fly. With those in the mix you can still chase fast units around the board, threaten peripherally placed objectives, and deal with flyers.
knas wrote: So will anyone be fielding the changeling now that it's been nerfed?
The model itself feels a bit awkwardly sized now for what it does.
It's still decent for adding another layer to screens.
If you're rocking a double battalion and still just jamming brimstones for tax, then you get 60 Models with 6+/6++/6+++. Not as good as they were, but not awful.
knas wrote: So will anyone be fielding the changeling now that it's been nerfed?
The model itself feels a bit awkwardly sized now for what it does.
It's still decent for adding another layer to screens.
If you're rocking a double battalion and still just jamming brimstones for tax, then you get 60 Models with 6+/6++/6+++. Not as good as they were, but not awful.
True it adds a lot of value to brimms and I guess it's still a psyker, so it could be useful to take instead of a second herald. Much harder choice though since you could take 30 brimms or 20 blues for the same price.
Am I overreacting, or is the Feculent Gnarlmaw incredible to the point of auto-include? +2 to saves to all units within (I don't think it says 'wholly within') 7"? Unkillable mortal wound generator to protect whatever you put there ... like obliterators... or to just add serious battlefield control
I generally think most of the things I've read are well-balanced but this seems like it just begs for CSM/DG abuse.
is not +2 save is like +2 cover.... so for demons covers mean almost nothing unless you have some kind of armor save. It is useful with CSM (obliterators).
Commissar_Rex wrote: Am I overreacting, or is the Feculent Gnarlmaw incredible to the point of auto-include? +2 to saves to all units within (I don't think it says 'wholly within') 7"? Unkillable mortal wound generator to protect whatever you put there ... like obliterators... or to just add serious battlefield control
I generally think most of the things I've read are well-balanced but this seems like it just begs for CSM/DG abuse.
+2 to armour saves not invul, I believe. So 4+ armour saves for your daemons against AP- weapons.
every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.
However, I did say that my main concern was with obliterator shenanigans. If an FAQ does stop this (as it should... 0+ obliterators? uh...) then it's not broken, but still a very powerful and unkillable aura machine we'll probably see a lot of
Commissar_Rex wrote: every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.
However, I did say that my main concern was with obliterator shenanigans. If an FAQ does stop this (as it should... 0+ obliterators? uh...) then it's not broken, but still a very powerful and unkillable aura machine we'll probably see a lot of
I'm pretty sure a save can never be better than a 2, or everything fails on a 1. Either one of those rules prevents this kind of sillyness, though it would still take a lot of -AP to chew through Oblits under that cover.
Commissar_Rex wrote: every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.
However, I did say that my main concern was with obliterator shenanigans. If an FAQ does stop this (as it should... 0+ obliterators? uh...) then it's not broken, but still a very powerful and unkillable aura machine we'll probably see a lot of
I'm pretty sure a save can never be better than a 2, or everything fails on a 1. Either one of those rules prevents this kind of sillyness, though it would still take a lot of -AP to chew through Oblits under that cover.
You're right, a roll of 1 always fails regardless of modifiers. I thought it was a result of 1 always fails. So basically all this would do is mean that oblits ignore AP-2 or weaker. Very good, but not quite broken.
The answer is the second one - a roll of one always fails, but saves can be better than 2+. It only matters for soaking up fire from high AP weapons, but that's still really good for a unit like Oblits. Shooting at those Oblits most guys will figure out that they either want AP- or really high AP, but that's still an effective deterrent for a lot of, say, AP -2 guns that would normally be pretty effective.
