That's about the only way they're going to sell that kit in large quantity. If they want it to sell like a unit, and not a terrain piece, it needs to be good. I think it's challenging enough to use based on not moving that I wouldn't call it broken or anything, but it is really excellent.
Frontline Gaming talking about the Daemons Codex changes:
Still listening to it, here's some comments from them I'm hearing:
1) Brimstones are still good.
2) Overall codex is very strong
3) Nurgle isn't slow \ weak anymore as long as you utilize your tools, namely the tree that allows them to advance and charge
4) Nurlge has a heavy reliance on support characters while the other gods don't really.
5) Seems to be a lot easier for Nurgle to get back dead units, even Drones.
6) GUO is a great force multiplier, even if he himself doesn't contribute in direct damage.
7) Bloodletter Bombs are going to be seen a lot.
8) They clearly say "You can use the deep strike stratagem on Daemon Faction units" while looking directly at the camera. This is as clear a message as they can give.
9) You can add the 3D6 banner to units in Deep Strike.
10) "Play your 25mm based Bloodletters as if they are on 32mm bases, it makes a big difference"
11) Deep Striking Flamers are nuts not. Screamers are great. "Tzeentch is a shooting army". "LoC with a Robe is super tanky".
12) "Slaan are the fastest". "Fiends are incredible".
13) "Bloodcrushers are great because they can deep strike".
14) "Every top tier army has to use CP to do their thing." "Daemons are CP starved, so focus in on one or two tactics, don't go in trying to do everything". "Blow all your CP first turn, you hit way harder than other armies".
15) "Skarbrand is amazing now". "More of a support unit now, less likely to charge in out of deep strike". "Skullreaver is insanely powerful on Daemon Prince". "Bloodthirsters still very expensive, D-Thirster now more worth it with the extra attack profile".
16) "Anticipate an FAQ. Some of the things people think they can do, they can't. Assume the Daemon stuff is for the Daemon Codex. Don't plan that you can do crazy stuff."
That's about the only way they're going to sell that kit in large quantity. If they want it to sell like a unit, and not a terrain piece, it needs to be good. I think it's challenging enough to use based on not moving that I wouldn't call it broken or anything, but it is really excellent.
This is all true, but i think it's very much hampered by the cost of the gnarl roots. I think the gnarl roots will be good, but you'll wanna be mostly nurgle or even mono nurgle to really use it well. Plague bearers need ALOT of points investment to get thier buffs up. I think once they do get thier buffs they are amazing, but as many of the buffs can effect multiple units it would be wise to go near mono nurgle to really get the best of it.
The other gods can be more peice meal. Khorne blood letters can get away on thier own, or with the help of a daemon prince to give them reroll 1s which all they need when they are all swarmed up. a bloodmaster (herald) can give them +str, but on the turn they charge that usualy won't matter against most targets.
Tzneeetch what ever you take a Changecaster (herald) will be great for the str buff usualy resulting in +1 to wound for most units against most targets, and the change caster can give a unit +1 to wound in the shooting phase. The LoC is arguably great on his own as warlord with relic as a durable center piece, and he can if also benefit from a changecaster as +1 str can get him to str 8 with sword which is a big break point. While the chancecaster can also throw out the reroll spell to help pump up your LoC's psykic phase or to help the LoC asttempt a turn 1 charge out of deep strike with the reroll and a CP reroll as needed (each can be done one at a time make it abit better than rerolling charges normally).
Gnarlmaws only affect Nurgle Daemons. Got my copy of the book today so I can 100% confirm that. Still good for nurgle oblits, but don't expect it to make horrors crazy.
any other specific questions I'll try to answer without quoting direct rules text
Commissar_Rex wrote: every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.
There are a few exceptions of Nurgle Daemons in the Codex that aren't 6+: Horticulous Slimux (+4), Daemon Prince (+3) and Soul Grinder (+3). Edit: Oops SG is a vehicle indeed so doesn't benefit
Commissar_Rex wrote: Am I overreacting, or is the Feculent Gnarlmaw incredible to the point of auto-include? +2 to saves to all units within (I don't think it says 'wholly within') 7"? Unkillable mortal wound generator to protect whatever you put there ... like obliterators... or to just add serious battlefield control
I generally think most of the things I've read are well-balanced but this seems like it just begs for CSM/DG abuse.
The +2 cover ability is "fully within " 7"., It is their other ability that is just units "within" 7".
So... brilliant with Obliterators, pointless on Possessed unless you’re using them as a gimmicky screen, marginal on Plaguebearers and the other ‘true’ daemons, possible bottlenecking niche with Mutilators (I have to admit, charge after fall back when the enemy is definitely going to come to you makes them look tasty, and all of this can be built on the fly), possible niche gimmick with Warp Talons, not useful with Plague Marines or Spawn.
Yeah definitly not an auto include. Even with the slime when you summon more you gotta pay for them. Gonna get expensive quite. Then when you think about the save bonus is only +1 to your save if your opponent has no so, and if they do have so. It isn't a bonus at all. So is only ever take a max of 2 of them. One to start and a second to plop down right before you charge your stuff in.
From that shrivel pox from nurgle is really good in multi god. -1 toughness can help any unit kill stuff.
It occurs to me that one benefit they carry is redundancy - if you are dropping them as snail poo, then you are effectively buying them from Reinforcement Points - so, if you end up against IW, IF, or Tau, you can spend the mingetree points on Summoning instead of a Cover aura your opponent ignores.
Keep in mind that the Plaguebell Chime rule requires units to be within range at the start of their turn to benefit from charging or shooting after advancing/falling back. The Slimux 'drop a tree and charge units after advancing' strategy isn't quite as easy to achieve during a game.
Mchaagen wrote: Keep in mind that the Plaguebell Chime rule requires units to be within range at the start of their turn to benefit from charging or shooting after advancing/falling back. The Slimux 'drop a tree and charge units after advancing' strategy isn't quite as easy to achieve during a game.
That makes it easier as you just need the model to touch the tree the turn before you hope to get off your advance and charge. It o my suck that you don't beable to place the tree as far up the board. Meaning if you want another tree on your enemies side of the table, you'll have to spend the point to put another there.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Pointless on possessed is a bit strong. They can soak shooting T1 then advance and charge. Combo with warptime, and other buffs could be alright?
Why bother soaking anything when you can shove them in a Rhino, or deep strike in 30 Plaugebearers? What role do Possessed serve when you can buff your Plaugebearers to crazy levels and then get some back every turn?
Edit: I don't mean to sound like an ass or anything but Possessed don't seem like a worthwhile pickup at the moment. They still need tweaks to be worth their price and compete against other, better units.
Just read the codex back to back. Anyone a bit underwhelmed by the strats? Can't see my self using anything other than the deep strike and +inv ones...
Latro_ wrote: Just read the codex back to back. Anyone a bit underwhelmed by the strats? Can't see my self using anything other than the deep strike and +inv ones...
My 2c.
Good strats: Denizens of the Warp - No more foot slogging.
Daemonic Incursion - BTFO GKs.
Warp Surge - 3++ Daemon Lords? Thank you!
Aura of Aquiescence - Stack this with the KoS aura and you can do some serious damage to the damage output of Boyz/Zerkers/Stealers/etc.
Not much to say/Situational stats Banner of Blood
Locus of Wrath
Frenetic Bloodlust
Revolting Regeneration
Plague Banner
Blasted Standard
Magical Boon
Locus of Conjuration
Locus of Grace
Rapturous Standard
BAD strats Soul Sacrifice, Daemonic Pact, Daemonic Possession - Who summons stuff?
Locus of Fecundity - 2CP for re-rolling 1s on a save? Pass.
Definitely DS and +1invul strat are going to dominate the use of CP for Daemon armies.
Well, talking about possessed... (other DAEMON chaos codex and Chaos Space Marine codex units are another story).
Before the start remember, that anyone of them can get +1 to wound, thx to "Veteran of the Long War"
Tzeenth: Mixed bag, really. What will you get in exchange for taking Tzeenth possessed?
T4 S6 (with herald) W2 D3A 3+/4++ blob, that have wierd ass ability to ignore some hit rolls, thx to Loci, and free reroll to your random attacks, thx to the new psychic power. Tzeenth is made for shooting and magic, sorry.
Slaanesh: A bit... better. But mediacore, really. Its a high risk high reward, giving you a blob of T4 S6 (with herald) W2 D3A 3+/5++/5+++ (sadly, we cant use both agonies for additional 6+++) that can:
Pile in and attack twice, if you get lucky with your dice.
Do a bonus attack on a 6+ to hit.
Reduse enemy's attack by 1.
Dodge enemy's attacks, thx to -1 to hit from anothey psychic power.
As you can see, lots of goodies, but they require lots of investment and all pretty mediacore.
Khorne: Bo-o-o. Lame. Reroll charge. That all. Clap. Everything else is just overcosted and dont even worth mentioning.
Nurgle: And we have a winner! Green is the new black this edition for possessed. +2 to wound rolls, and on a 4+ to wound aditional damage, on a 5+ to wound double damage? YES PLEASE. -1 to hit? YES PLEASE. -2 (Alpha legion) to hit?MLG420NONSCOPE. And all this goodies are greatly supported by tones of -1 (2! (3!!))T to enemy units!
EricDominus wrote: Nurgle: And we have a winner! Green is the new black this edition for possessed. +2 to wound rolls, and on a 4+ to wound aditional damage, on a 5+ to wound double damage? YES PLEASE. -1 to hit? YES PLEASE. -2 (Alpha legion) to hit?MLG420NONSCOPE. And all this goodies are greatly supported by tones of -1 (2! (3!!))T to enemy units!
This makes me wonder if it would be a good idea to take Possessed in a Death Guard army buffed by a Daemons of Nurgle detachment. They can potentially benefit from the aura of a Lord of Contagion (or Typhus), plus there are a couple of decent spells (Blades of Putrefaction, Putrescent Vitality) that can buff them. Pretty good, especially if Morty's around to give nearby units -1 toughness.
I was thinking you could wrangle possessed into a daemons deatchment to keep it BF, but on inspection there is a daemons faction KW to keep locis and unlock strats
If you want a Nurgle Daemonkin army, you can take a LEGION Vanguard with Possessed and Decimators and a Daemon Prince or character on Palanquin. Excellent synergy with Death Guard Legion Trait (a Tallyman is good company for their Possessed), excellent synergy with Epidemius, excellent access to Warptime and Death Hex if you go with a polytheist Legion (Alpha Legion and Renegades in particular have good Possessed).
This will also unlock CSM or DG Stratagems. Nothing especially outstanding per se... but it’s something.
Also, if you dig the toothy tree, a Spearhead of three Obliterators units with a Chaos Lord will be a brutal close-Medium range firebase that only cover ignoring factions will be confident against. Iron Warriors come to mind as a pretty good option, there - place a Gnarlmaw opposite an enemy firebase, drop in the heavy infantry, wreck face.
Bonus: lose the Obliterators’ weakness to being tarpitted.
Daemon Prince 180 hq Wings, Malefic Talons, Axe, Tzeentch, Imp Robe
Fluxmaster 99 hq Fluxmaster (Daemonspark) 99 hq Fate Skimmer 150 hq 10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
4 'clomps' of attack
7 units in DS horrors, flamers and flux masters
drop in horror 120 s4 shots re-rolling 1's to wound (maybe whack on flickering for +1 to wound)
drop in flamers avg 36 s5 -1 hits
chariot wing up the board 9 s10 -4 d3 shots
screamers with DP for some CC punch
brims just camp objs or be annoying
5cp to spare and not even touching on a crap load of smite and other powers
its weird though tzeentch seems to pack some scary shooting but if you mathhammer it, does not seem to stack up
Latro_ wrote: What would you guys run for mono tzeentch at 2k?
I was thinking something like Brigade
Daemon Prince 180 hq Wings, Malefic Talons, Axe, Tzeentch, Imp Robe
Fluxmaster 99 hq Fluxmaster (Daemonspark) 99 hq Fate Skimmer 150 hq 10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
20 Pink Horrors 140 t
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Flamers 112 e
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
4 Screamers 124 f
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
Burning Chariot 120 h
4 'clomps' of attack
7 units in DS horrors, flamers and flux masters
drop in horror 120 s4 shots re-rolling 1's to wound (maybe whack on flickering for +1 to wound)
drop in flamers avg 36 s5 -1 hits
chariot wing up the board 9 s10 -4 d3 shots
screamers with DP for some CC punch
brims just camp objs or be annoying
5cp to spare and not even touching on a crap load of smite and other powers
its weird though tzeentch seems to pack some scary shooting but if you mathhammer it, does not seem to stack up
go for 1 or 2 battalions and a vanguard instead. the burning chariot is hot garbage compared to the exalted flamer. only a minor increase of durability and speed to offset loss of character protections, just run the e. flamers inside a screen of brims or with the other flamers.
the other thing you can do is maximize use of CP by either taking just enough units to stay under PL 8 (ex 6 flamers) or going all-in on a single unit.
in the list above, all the brigade does for you is reduce character tax, but tzeentch is in the pleasant position where most characters in the HQ section are actually worth using.
yeah screamers are nice, but if you're going for drop-bomb shooting you won't have much of a way to hide them T1 to avoid them getting ruined as the only target of worth
Summon and then charge that annoying tank in the background.
Big fan of Fiends, here. Summoning is really tricky to make work with them. Can’t rely on the charge on the turn you Summon, so the warm-up requires you to first get a character into position, then next turn Summon, then next turn charge.
Main advantage of Summoning them is you can keep their superpower off your opponent’s mind during the setup. But with Locus of charge after advance, I’m more inclined to run them with some Seekers and a Herald - or else pay a CP to deep strike up to eight of them.
Latro_ wrote: Just read the codex back to back. Anyone a bit underwhelmed by the strats? Can't see my self using anything other than the deep strike and +inv ones...
My 2c.
Good strats: Denizens of the Warp - No more foot slogging.
Daemonic Incursion - BTFO GKs.
Warp Surge - 3++ Daemon Lords? Thank you!
Aura of Aquiescence - Stack this with the KoS aura and you can do some serious damage to the damage output of Boyz/Zerkers/Stealers/etc.
Not much to say/Situational stats Banner of Blood
Locus of Wrath
Frenetic Bloodlust
Revolting Regeneration
Plague Banner
Blasted Standard
Magical Boon
Locus of Conjuration
Locus of Grace
Rapturous Standard
BAD strats Soul Sacrifice, Daemonic Pact, Daemonic Possession - Who summons stuff?
Locus of Fecundity - 2CP for re-rolling 1s on a save? Pass.
Definitely DS and +1invul strat are going to dominate the use of CP for Daemon armies.
i agree with lots of this, but:
down grade:
aura of aquiense i'd say is back down to situation only in that it's onyl really good in nurgle/slannesh armies where you are ransoming units, by surrounding them and then hoping to finish them off in the opponent fight phase. Other wise i don't really see it coming into play a whole ton.
plague banner (bad): putting this on units your opponent sees coming a turn away no matter how you try to get these guys on the field. multiple damage on dudes that don't have any AP. I'm not sold khorne does it better inately.
Blasted standard (bad because banners on horrors are bad): It's fairly decent against the right targets and actualy averages more damage than a smite from a no bonus caster, but the banner isn't worth it on it's own. Also i don't really highly rate the daemonic banners, it's too easily countered by just killing the squad completely and even then i jsut don't see them making thier points back on horrors who won't be getting chipped down a lot and constantly getting to roll bravery from melee or overwatch. Unlike the other lesser daemons who are gonna always be losing 1 or two models on your turn to over watch and melee relatialtion that the banner gets to get a lot of action.
Inclusion into situational or good:
Rewards of chaos (situational/list dependent): i think among one of the best stratagems we have. Even more so in tournament play. Bring a token slannesh herald for -1 to hit spell and access to -1 to hit aura. You can use rewards of chaos against opponents who bring stuff like magnus or mortarian for a 50% shot of just turning the guy off in the fight or psykic phase. Bring a token daemon prince of khorne with axe you have a great beat stick cahracter who can get into range to give your blood letter bomb reroll 1s, and who himself does respectable damage against small vehicles or hordes with either axe or talon, but then against opponents with acceptable targets you can pull out the skullreaver and cut big threat models in half. very flexible use of 1-3cp and something i think is definitly worth building most pure daemons armies around. Just on those two relics i think this stratagem is good as thier use is so situation and relics have to be appart of your list usualy, but CP let you be more flexibile. I'd almost say this is just plain good, but i guess you might not wanna take a khorne daemon prince or a slannesh herald.
Daemonic possession (good): just great stuff a free smite that auto goes off. No range just really double down on the perils punish.
So... the new Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage... with armour of scorn...
With the DS strategem...
Dude.
With the "Deathbringer" (Each unmodified hit roll of 6 made for this model in the Fight phase scores 2 hits instead of 1) + Unstoppable Ferocity + new weapon mode "Sweeping Blow":
Latro_ wrote: I was thinking you could wrangle possessed into a daemons deatchment to keep it BF, but on inspection there is a daemons faction KW to keep locis and unlock strats
Funny story, Death Guard possessed are Faction daemon.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
"Take what you can, and give nothing back!"
What I meant to say was that. Wasn't that how Imperium Soup has always been played? You get the best of sisters in Celestine, throw in IG, and Robute Gulliman or whatever is your favourite SM faction, and you still get to use all the strategems and units happily.
Yes and no.
Yes you combine the armies and get to get great things for both.
however in this case it's abit more like you're robbing them of what makes them neat. For instance imperial guard as they are now can use thier own stratagems and relics on thier own character, but the space marine units can't use most or almost any of them. instead the space marines ahve to use thier own stuff. Where as the daemons as we sort of know them now you can basicly just take the best CSM list you have right now, space in some cost nothing daemons units, and take advantage of stratagems, and relics if you are willing to sacrifice your warlord.
So it's pretty different as in your example the IG stuff are the only ones who can use the IG stratagems, and the space marine stuff is the only ones that can use the space marine stratagems.
Why do you want to take stuff from the IG codex if you're a SM player, when you already are able to use BAs, DAs, then take stuff from the SM's codex? IMO, there's nothing wrong with CSM taking stuff from Daemon's dex, given that's exactly how CSM operates in the lore anyway.
14) "Every top tier army has to use CP to do their thing." "Daemons are CP starved, so focus in on one or two tactics, don't go in trying to do everything". "Blow all your CP first turn, you hit way harder than other armies".
How do they figure demons are CP starved? Seems like they fill up detachments pretty easily.
14) "Every top tier army has to use CP to do their thing." "Daemons are CP starved, so focus in on one or two tactics, don't go in trying to do everything". "Blow all your CP first turn, you hit way harder than other armies".
How do they figure demons are CP starved? Seems like they fill up detachments pretty easily.
No way of regenerating them and most players will be blowing 5+ at least on deep striking.
I think demons will be fine cp wise. A demon player can easily fill out 2 +3 cp detachments with leftover points for heavy hitters. That’s 9 cp. it’s not guard level but it’s pretty good when you consider demons are going to want to be up close and personal asap, most demon games will be over one way or another by turn 3 as you’ll either survive their demon bombs or not
14) "Every top tier army has to use CP to do their thing." "Daemons are CP starved, so focus in on one or two tactics, don't go in trying to do everything". "Blow all your CP first turn, you hit way harder than other armies".
How do they figure demons are CP starved? Seems like they fill up detachments pretty easily.
No way of regenerating them and most players will be blowing 5+ at least on deep striking.
That hardly sounds like starved. I never bother trying to regenerate CP's since I usually barely use half my stack.
14) "Every top tier army has to use CP to do their thing." "Daemons are CP starved, so focus in on one or two tactics, don't go in trying to do everything". "Blow all your CP first turn, you hit way harder than other armies".
How do they figure demons are CP starved? Seems like they fill up detachments pretty easily.
No way of regenerating them and most players will be blowing 5+ at least on deep striking.
That hardly sounds like starved. I never bother trying to regenerate CP's since I usually barely use half my stack.
I'm not arguing they are starved. That's just how they figured as much, they said so specifically in the video, talking about imperial cp regeneration and blowing all your CPs at the start.
Latro_ wrote: I was thinking you could wrangle possessed into a daemons deatchment to keep it BF, but on inspection there is a daemons faction KW to keep locis and unlock strats
Funny story, Death Guard possessed are Faction daemon.
I mean its definitely a typo..
If it was a typo it would have been FAQ'd already.
1st in 1250 pts 15ppl rtt(doesn't get much better where I live)
Dp skulreaver(soooo good)
2x 20 letters icon instrument(soooo good)
2 tz heralds
2x 12 brims
30 pinks(soooo good)
2 nr heralds
3x 3 nurglings(sooooo good)
Kinda crushed everyone. Tabled almost everyone. Pinks kill screen. Never die. Letters tie everything up. Gg
Nurglings get pts for recon and behind enemy lines
Deepstrike everything for 8-9cp. That's all you need. Fought 2x with khorne once
Tz herald warlord buffs pinks 3 times = dead anything
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last game rolled 1 on morale and got 6 bloodletters back, who surrounded the model I was in combat with so they couldn't run away. That was really cool
whembly wrote: So... the new Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage... with armour of scorn...
With the DS strategem...
Dude.
With the "Deathbringer" (Each unmodified hit roll of 6 made for this model in the Fight phase scores 2 hits instead of 1) + Unstoppable Ferocity + new weapon mode "Sweeping Blow":
Number of attacks = 14 (unwounded thirster).
Any natural 6s is auto 2-hits.
I would agree with you but incessant rage is the worst BT strictly due to the degrade he has, he loses attacks AND WS Really hurt his damage..
So what's the exact restriction on the DS? Meaning the "Daemon" part, like does it have to be from that codex, or can you ally in something from the CSM book and DS it as long is it has the Daemon keyword?
Kizuke21 wrote: So what's the exact restriction on the DS? Meaning the "Daemon" part, like does it have to be from that codex, or can you ally in something from the CSM book and DS it as long is it has the Daemon keyword?
Only restriction is that it must be a Daemon unit.
dan2026 wrote: So I've got this idea of comboing deep striking Heralds of Khorne and Warp Talons.
Talons have a problem with making that charge roll, the Herald fixes that.
Heralds have a problem with overwatch, Talons fix that.
Everyone gets +1S from the locus.
Seems like an annoying bit of fun to deal with.
Hmmm, not sure how the herald is supposed to fix Talons making the charge roll... If you mean the reroll charge thingy, Warp Talons can bring an icon of wrath, and that allows you to recharge. Heralds just add +1 str. But yes, Talons do fix the overwatch. Actually though, I think using a Blood Throne might be a good way to handle the overwatch problem.
A Blood throne is T7, 7 wounds. Imagine the typical bubble wrap of imperical guard or cultists, etc. Any shooting is probably str 3. So, you overwatch and hit on a 6, and then after that you wound the T7 Blood Throne on a 6 again. that 1 out of 36 chance of getting a wound on a Blood Throne charging in, and you then get your 5++ save. Plus, the blood throne is a herald character, so you can give your aura +1 str to khorne daemons nearby, and your locus to recharge.
So, charge into a bubblewrap, absorb the overwatch on your blood throne, then have your other daemon units follow with the charge. You can do that by staying purely within Daemons, and don't even need to use Warp Talons.
dan2026 wrote: The Heralds Locus of Rage allows them to reroll charge range.
Also Warp Talons cannot bring an icon.
Ah, my mistake, I always thought they could. Anyway, they are too expensive if you are just going to use them to charge into fodder. If you bring warp talons, you should bring a sorceror with warptime, then you can move them 12 inches closer, and then your charge will get them behind the bubble wrap to the units that you really want to hit.
A lot of exictement around letters and pink horrors - any thoughts on plaguebearers outside of a mono nurgle list?
Poxbringer brings them to 5 str but really I see them as a fairly solid tarpit (4 toughness, -1 to hit over 20 - possible -2 to hit [miasma], standard daemon save (1/3 all wounds saved), and a 5+++ FNP).
Worth it as objective sitters? The 5++ and 5+++ and higher toughness seems borderline worth it over brims.
orkswubwub wrote: A lot of exictement around letters and pink horrors - any thoughts on plaguebearers outside of a mono nurgle list?
Poxbringer brings them to 5 str but really I see them as a fairly solid tarpit (4 toughness, -1 to hit over 20 - possible -2 to hit [miasma], standard daemon save (1/3 all wounds saved), and a 5+++ FNP).
Worth it as objective sitters? The 5++ and 5+++ and higher toughness seems borderline worth it over brims.
plaguebearers in my opinion are mono nurgle only. You want the tree to buff your guys which is more investment. then you need all the character support to have them do decent damage and to give them the durability they need to actualy make it into combat before they get sshot up. Nurglings and the GUO are the splashables. the GUO can deep strike and miasma himself keeping him rather safe from getting aced if you don't go first. Hes got a repectible weapon load out of bile sword and plague flail, and when he drops down he can throw our shrivel pox to aid horrors and blood letters in dealing with various targets. While nurglings scout to prevent deep strikes, and keep your deep strike zone safe clear, and are cheap and tough battleline.
Why do you want to take stuff from the IG codex if you're a SM player, when you already are able to use BAs, DAs, then take stuff from the SM's codex? IMO, there's nothing wrong with CSM taking stuff from Daemon's dex, given that's exactly how CSM operates in the lore anyway.
This is a poor arguement. 15 or 16 of thier stratagems are shared.
chapter master, death to the traitor, and tremor shells are the only stratagems you get for your BA, DA armies from SM codex.... that's nothing and near useless.
CSM all the daemons double thier stratagems taking stuff that is completely unique from daemons and drawing stuff from space marines. That's just ridiculous.
Nora wrote: is it anything that prevent FECULENT GNARLMAWS to be summoned using DAEMONIC RITUAL?Sounds to me S a very good thing.
They don't have the rule on thier datasheet.
I think the denizens of the warp stratagem will work on them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stretching them across objectives your your opponent is near would be quite trolly.
Hmm. Landing a bunch of Obliterators with them and a Herald, dropping in some Mutilators who’ll be allowed to Advance and Charge next turn, maybe a drop Pod with a Possessed unit or put Miasma on a PB line... interesting.
I've seem a few people here and on other threads saying Screamers are good now, but I just don't get it. They are expensive, relatively easy to kill, ok in combat (good attacks but only 3 at 4+ to hit) and no easy access to to-hit bonuses. Sure they are reasonably fast, but now we have both deep striking and summoning to bring units in, that's not a bid deal.
So, having just jumped into the Daemons bandwagon, Instruments and Banners: auto include on 20+? Is an Insrument a good investment on a 10 man unit?
Not sure how to go about assembling the box... I have 20 so far. 2 and 2, One with banner and instrument, one without... Should I just assemble them with and only play them as equipped when I combine the unit? Just trying to feel my options.
It really depends on the unit I guess. DS Horrors don't really benefit enough to waste points on them. DS Bloodletters, on the other hand, really benefit from dropping 10pts on them. Just my 2c.
Yea, forgot to mention I was talking about (2 boxes of) Plague Bearers. More than likely, they camp or screen, so Instrument or Banners aren't necessary. But if I combine them into a single 20 unit, I just don't know how I want to build the kit!
I've seem a few people here and on other threads saying Screamers are good now, but I just don't get it. They are expensive, relatively easy to kill, ok in combat (good attacks but only 3 at 4+ to hit) and no easy access to to-hit bonuses. Sure they are reasonably fast, but now we have both deep striking and summoning to bring units in, that's not a bid deal.
So am I missing something?
From offensive stats you can try to compare Screamers with Sanguinary Guard. The 3A on 4+ are actually better than the 2A on 3+ from the SG. They also do almost the same amount of damage, but are much faster and have S6-8. Actually this makes them pretty good against Transporters, Tanks and Flyers (Stormraven etc.).
They are of course glass cannons even with the 4++, but you probably can keep them alive quite easily with the Stratagem with +1 to Inv Save.
I think overall they are pretty good, however, the other Tzeentch units outshine them a bit. Ex. Flamers, Flamers and Pink Horrors are so good now. But the latter have to come via deep strike, while the Screamers do not profit a lot from ds.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Yea, forgot to mention I was talking about (2 boxes of) Plague Bearers. More than likely, they camp or screen, so Instrument or Banners aren't necessary. But if I combine them into a single 20 unit, I just don't know how I want to build the kit!
You often want to deploy plague bearers in units of 30 for the -1 to hit.
If you're doing mono Nurgle you'll likely need to be moving if you want to be dealing any damage. The instrument is quite useful, especially on slow 5 move plague bearers where that +1 often makes a difference. As for the banner it's hard to calculate it since it depends on how often you take leadership tests, if you do get a 1 though you'll likely have made it's cost back. It also gives you the option of upgrading it with the banner stratagem which can help reliably take out 2W units.
Many people play WYSIWYG so be prepared that some folk might complain if you're proxying instruments and banners are normal troops.
Is there any reason to take a Soul Grinder anymore? Without more wounds and/or toughness they are extremely expensive for their lackluster performance.
Two Skull cannons cost less and will do more damage on the move.....and potentially in combat.
So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.
Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.
eternalxfl wrote: So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.
Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.
Some of the stuff is "faction" keyword not just keyword in the codex so just keep an eye on those.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Yea, forgot to mention I was talking about (2 boxes of) Plague Bearers. More than likely, they camp or screen, so Instrument or Banners aren't necessary. But if I combine them into a single 20 unit, I just don't know how I want to build the kit!
Instruments and banners only matter on big 30 man squads. Other I don't think I'd care much for the banner.
eternalxfl wrote: So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.
Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.
You're better off with two detachments instead of the brigade. I personally am running three Battalion detachments: World Eaters (berzerkers), Khorne Daemons (daemon prince + bloodletter bomb), and Renegade and Heretics (cultists, backfield deeps strike deny). I've beaten some other semi-competitive lists of Blood Angels and Tau because the shear mass of bodies moving up the board coupled with the Bomb splitting enemy fire is a great combo. I'm currently looking at ways to put more pressure on my opponent faster so the rest of my army can move up unmolested. I'll either add more Bloodletters for a second Bomb, or add Bloodcrushers, or Mutilators, or something to boost the anvil.
eternalxfl wrote: So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.
Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.
Some of the stuff is "faction" keyword not just keyword in the codex so just keep an eye on those.
I would make 2 separate lists, 1 for the WE, 1 for the Khorne Daemons. You won't get access to either faction's stratagems if you put them both in 1 brigade, so there's no benefits whatsoever in doing so.
whembly wrote: So... the new Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage... with armour of scorn...
With the DS strategem...
Dude.
With the "Deathbringer" (Each unmodified hit roll of 6 made for this model in the Fight phase scores 2 hits instead of 1) + Unstoppable Ferocity + new weapon mode "Sweeping Blow":
Number of attacks = 14 (unwounded thirster).
Any natural 6s is auto 2-hits.
I would agree with you but incessant rage is the worst BT strictly due to the degrade he has, he loses attacks AND WS Really hurt his damage..
The new ds stratagem actually fixed this problem, IR BT is a Daemon you'd want to bring to close combat immediately to fully utilize his power. So if you bring him, make sure you save the ds slot for him. However, point for point, I'd rather bring Skarbrand though. It's true he can't fly, but he doesn't need to when he's already within charge range. Moreover, Skarbrand's number of attacks actually increases the more he takes damage, so you can be certain that he'll pay back every single point you paid for him.
Have any of you skull collectors figured out a way to use summoning to your advantage? Every time I have a Khorn character standing around summoning I feel like he got in trouble and isn't allowed to go chase skulls with the rest of the kids. I really want it to be amazing, but with a Khorn only daemon army it feels awkward due to our characters never wanting to be standing still.
The only time summoning doesn't feel awkward to me is when they are sitting around in close combat and need some backup.
Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
Corn wrote: Have any of you skull collectors figured out a way to use summoning to your advantage? Every time I have a Khorn character standing around summoning I feel like he got in trouble and isn't allowed to go chase skulls with the rest of the kids. I really want it to be amazing, but with a Khorn only daemon army it feels awkward due to our characters never wanting to be standing still.
The only time summoning doesn't feel awkward to me is when they are sitting around in close combat and need some backup.
the only summonming i can see being maybe useful is summoning tzeentch daemons. They shoot and tend to have decently rang. you could probably also summon a skull cannon but i think thats heavy??? So thats alittle meh.
Also alittle in the favor of tzeentch summoning you can summoning works best for the situation at hand GEQ and meq= horrors, MEQ/Plague marine= flamers, tanks= exalted flamers. That said the range is just a tiny bit too short be particularly awesome
Corn wrote: Have any of you skull collectors figured out a way to use summoning to your advantage? Every time I have a Khorn character standing around summoning I feel like he got in trouble and isn't allowed to go chase skulls with the rest of the kids. I really want it to be amazing, but with a Khorn only daemon army it feels awkward due to our characters never wanting to be standing still.
The only time summoning doesn't feel awkward to me is when they are sitting around in close combat and need some backup.
Yeah this seems an issue generally. It's not too bad if you get a cheap herald with no other job, but even he sort of ought to be keeping up with the bloodletters, giving them +1 strength.
That said, I'm not sure why you'd bother summoning khorne stuff. The fact you have to stand still to do it means you aren't really getting anywhere any faster.
I'm a little bit tempted to try out a khorne army. Having 30 bloodletters pop up and charge in on turn one sound like fun, though it could be pretty vulnerable to being foiled by enemy bubble wrap. It seems to me that a mixed force with pink horrors to clear away chaff and bloodletters to follow up might make more sense. I realise this isn't some amazing revealation - it's kind of obvious!
I wonder if it's actually just a trap to try and go mono-god. The benefits for doing so aren't all that huge, and by not doing it you get to use the other 75% of your codex. A mixed force might well do better, I think.
There's obviously a case for getting two battalions. That might be the best way to go. Maybe have a khorne battalion so your choppy guys get to reroll charges and a mixed nurgle/tzeench one so you have nurglings and pink horrors.
McGibs wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
seems strong we'll have to see. I'd ask on the facebook page so they can get it into the faq. If it gets missed then folks will buy decimators, and then it will get faq'd out and all those folks will be screwed over haha.
McGibs wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
I was thinking a DP with this might actually make grinders ok. Re-rolling 1s and getting extra shots would mitigate their lower BS. It would even benefit their melee.
It unfortunately seems too good to be true. But, as it is written, it seems fun.
McGibs wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
I was already thinking of using it to make a weird Khorne gunline with forgefiend, skull throne and obliterators of khorne to complement a bloodletterbomb, and I thought a roll of 6 would only add a single shot. (But I was already pretty happy that it worked both in melee and range). But a re-reading of the rule make me believe you're right, and a 6 to wound add a whole attack with your weapon, that sounds scary good! :0
I have a tournament this weekend, should I bring this or is this gonna be a dick move?
I can see it generating a lot of raised eyebrows, even if it is technically legal. For a free warlord trait, it really seems like it was intended to only work in the fight phase, and the designers just forgot that there are khorne daemons with guns too.
McGibs wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
I was already thinking of using it to make a weird Khorne gunline with forgefiend, skull throne and obliterators of khorne to complement a bloodletterbomb, and I thought a roll of 6 would only add a single shot. (But I was already pretty happy that it worked both in melee and range). But a re-reading of the rule make me believe you're right, and a 6 to wound add a whole attack with your weapon, that sounds scary good! :0
I have a tournament this weekend, should I bring this or is this gonna be a dick move?
And just in case I want to have some rule to support me, is there other instance of generating extra ranged attack in the game that work similar to this one?
I know of MotA + DttFE for noise marine, that can also (IIRC) generate whole extra ranged attack.
VoidSempai wrote: And just in case I want to have some rule to support me, is there other instance of generating extra ranged attack in the game that work similar to this one?
I know of MotA + DttFE for noise marine, that can also (IIRC) generate whole extra ranged attack.
There's an ork stratagem that does it too. It's been clarified unofficially as only getting you an extra shot, not an entire extra attack with the weapon profile. But no real FAQ
VoidSempai wrote: And just in case I want to have some rule to support me, is there other instance of generating extra ranged attack in the game that work similar to this one?
I know of MotA + DttFE for noise marine, that can also (IIRC) generate whole extra ranged attack.
There's an ork stratagem that does it too. It's been clarified unofficially as only getting you an extra shot, not an entire extra attack with the weapon profile. But no real FAQ
Dang! Thank you for that though, i'll keep this in mind and refer to the event TO for this. In the meantime i'll keep in mind that it only generates a single dice roll, but maybe it'll be judged to generate an extra whole attack! Thanks!
McGibs wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
No, it doesnt work this way. Please, read your BRB, in particular, page 179 (shooting phase)
Number of attacks.
"Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks."
So, heavy 5 weapon makes 5 "attacks". And on a 6+ to wound you will make another attack, thx to the crown.
Not to get into a whole YMDC thing here, but the connection between a shooting attack and a melee attack is pretty strong - in both cases a model may make a number of attacks, but "attack" refers pretty 1-1 with a single shot or melee swing, not the full set of attacks. I'm not suggesting that I've made an airtight RAW case here, but I think assuming the opposite will result in eventual disappointment.
Still useful for the really big guns though. I guess.
If you are looking for some bucket of dice, then Slaanesh can easily do it for you. Slaanesh daemons have a stratagem, similar to the Crimson Crown effect. Whats the funny thing, you may ask? Steeds of Slaanesh.
Their "attacks" are not "swings". The number of their attacks is stated in their "weapons" ability. So every wound roll of 6+ will give you additional 2/4/8/D6 swings, depends on a unit within your aura.
Rydria wrote: On the subject of mount attacks, is there strength buffed by the aura of a herald or is it always strength 4 ? (for a seeker)
Heralds buff the strength is models. Some weapons have the user’s strength and they are buffed. If a weapon just has a set strength it won’t be affected.
dan2026 wrote: What's better for mashing tanks?
(Particularly of the Leman Russ variety)
Skarbrand or the Bloodthirster of Intense Rage?
Daemon Prince with Skullreaver?
It is pretty absurd. Especially since I just learned you can Stratagem to swing twice per round for as long as you can pay a Battalion's worth of CP a turn...
...but considering the amount of damage you can do, it may be worth it.
dan2026 wrote: What's better for mashing tanks?
(Particularly of the Leman Russ variety)
Skarbrand or the Bloodthirster of Intense Rage?
Daemon Prince with Skullreaver?
It is pretty absurd. Especially since I just learned you can Stratagem to swing twice per round for as long as you can pay a Battalion's worth of CP a turn...
...but considering the amount of damage you can do, it may be worth it.
I ran it this weekend. It's pretty good, it can be finiky with the D6 damage. But boy oh boy when you hit those sixes to wound, BOY OH BOY REV UP THOSE FRYERS!
ballzonya wrote: Question do those trees (forgot their name) get placed just like placing other units in your deployment? You don't need the snail to drop them do you?
Yes they are a unit in your army just like any other model. you can even deep strike them. Similarly when summoned they cost points.
McGibs wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
Yeah, they’re going to have to rewrite this to melee only, or else clarify that it means a single extra shot. It clearly isn’t going to be ‘Lord of Skulls rolls to hit with Hades Gatling Cannon, hits 10 times, rolls three sixes to wound, FIRES THIRTY-SIX MORE SHOTS’.
operkoi wrote: Question: Which FW heavy support is the best choice: giant chaos spawn or spined chaos beast?
What's your god? Are you gunna deep strike it? What is its role in your army?
Im thinking of mixing slaanesh and khorne and using the beastie as a high wound footslogger. Plan is to run batallion slaanesh, batallion khorne, and batallion CSM, footslog a horde of daemonettes/cultists with masque and herald to the enemy and deep strike skarbrand for +1a aura/chop up big enemy target with some miscellaneous units to provide some ranged damage. I figured a relatively fast and durable model would be useful to countering deepstrikes/transports or as a linebreaker
Also have a bunch of old nurgle stuff but haven't looked into it too much as i'm not a fan of alot of the new unit asthetics and those seem like necessary lynchpins
andysonic1 wrote: I don't think you'll be able to fit all of that into a list, honestly.
well its kind of for a 2000-2500 pt list and skarbrand is the only big guy i have so far. was mainly interested in the beasts because theyre cheaper then soul grinder/defiler and seem pretty good in melee. most of my hqs are heralds or ~100-120 pt chaos characters
Okay I really don't understand this but why do chaos spawn not have a 5++? They're clearly daemonic and would definitely make them way more useful. Is it because they cost 33 pts?
Crastok wrote: Okay I really don't understand this but why do chaos spawn not have a 5++? They're clearly daemonic and would definitely make them way more useful. Is it because they cost 33 pts?
Spawn aren't actually daemons. They are just hideously mutated blobs of flesh
Crastok wrote: Okay I really don't understand this but why do chaos spawn not have a 5++? They're clearly daemonic and would definitely make them way more useful. Is it because they cost 33 pts?
Spawn aren't actually daemons. They are just hideously mutated blobs of flesh
So I am looking at the deamon codex right now and am loving it for the most part. I am trying to figure something out though, my deamon army is going to be rolling with my chaos marine army, right now a renegade chapter variety force. I wanted to use forgefiends and soul grinders as the focus of the shooting of the army, but I am not seeing any real options for helping the soul grinder shoot better in the deamon codex except for a deamon prince. I really don't want to pay for a dp to just make the soulgrinder shoot better, what other options could I take?
I don't have my chaos marine codex on me atm, but I am ok using a deathguard detachment and giving the grinder mark of nurgle, or just sticking with chaos marines and mark of tzeench for better save, as my deamon force is a soup list and not dedicated to any single force. Would rather not have to rely on stratagems like demonic Forge from the chaos marines book either.
Or are these guys just not tactically viable for long range fire Support? I am trying to tiptoe the line of fluffy and challenging vs all comers, not focused on taking on any specific army or force.
McGibs wrote: Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)
so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.
Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.
Yeah, they’re going to have to rewrite this to melee only, or else clarify that it means a single extra shot. It clearly isn’t going to be ‘Lord of Skulls rolls to hit with Hades Gatling Cannon, hits 10 times, rolls three sixes to wound, FIRES THIRTY-SIX MORE SHOTS’.
No. BRB, page 179. Or simply read my previous comment where i have already answered.
Hi!
Long time lurker and now it is time to provide with some content to this lovely thread.
I made a 1500 points mono tzeentch army, and I want to see what you think:
HQ: :
Lord Of Change with Baleful sword
- Psychic Powers: Infernal Gateway, Bolt of Change, Flickering Flames
- Artefacts/Wargear: The impossible Robe
- Comment: Set up middle, draw attention
Change Caster
- Psychic Powers: Gaze of Fate, Boon of Change
- Artefacts/Wargear: -
- Comment: Stay behind troops and provide rerolls
Troops:
10 brimstones
10 blue horror
10 blue horror
- Comment: Objective holders, screen (lack of brimestones)
Use rest of the command points for rerolls, moral negation and +1 invulnerable saves
Game plan: Try to deepstrike as soon as possible and try to position such that I can eliminate key sections of the enemy army.
The Lord of Change with the impossible robe are going move straight against the enemy on a suicide mission to draw attention from enemy gunfire. If he survives (3++) will be a somewhat threat in melee and in Infernal Gateway range.
Screamers are going on for flyer hunt or take down medium vehicle, since the high movement it is not impossible for them to take advantage of the Deepstriking blob aura.
Brimestones/Blue Horrors are going to take and hold objectives and screen the changecaster number 2 and exalted flamers.
Exalted Flamers are going to target various high armor trouble makers.
Possible changes: 1. I dont know if it is worth to choose the deepstriking changecaster as a warlord for the daemonspark (reroll 1 to wound in shooting phase) or if I should make the Lord of Change the warlord so he can get the Incorporeal form (-1 damage).
2. I really want to try out the screamers, but more flamers might be a better choice.
3. Daemon prince with 2 malefic talons is a beast, but I'm worried that deepstriking a Daemon prince for the reroll 1 to hit and a possible charge is a waste of points.
Anyone has some suggestions or see something obvious I should change?
I found a funny typo: obliterators have the faction keyords
"daemon" so they can be used in a battleforged detachment of chaos daemon.
They do not gain the specific ability of a daemon with alligiance but they can sinergy with psychic powers and relics...
A khorne obly unit can benefit from the crown....cool
So I am looking at the deamon codex right now and am loving it for the most part. I am trying to figure something out though, my deamon army is going to be rolling with my chaos marine army, right now a renegade chapter variety force. I wanted to use forgefiends and soul grinders as the focus of the shooting of the army, but I am not seeing any real options for helping the soul grinder shoot better in the deamon codex except for a deamon prince. I really don't want to pay for a dp to just make the soulgrinder shoot better, what other options could I take?
I don't have my chaos marine codex on me atm, but I am ok using a deathguard detachment and giving the grinder mark of nurgle, or just sticking with chaos marines and mark of tzeench for better save, as my deamon force is a soup list and not dedicated to any single force. Would rather not have to rely on stratagems like demonic Forge from the chaos marines book either.
Or are these guys just not tactically viable for long range fire Support? I am trying to tiptoe the line of fluffy and challenging vs all comers, not focused on taking on any specific army or force.
Neither Foregfiends or Soul Grinders are really viable for long ranged support unless you shove Kharn next to them, buff them with psykic powers, and sacrifice a small goat before the game begins. You will get more mileage out of Havocs, Bikes, Obits, and pretty much any other shooting option.
brugner8 wrote: I found a funny typo: obliterators have the faction keyords
"daemon" so they can be used in a battleforged detachment of chaos daemon.
They do not gain the specific ability of a daemon with alligiance but they can sinergy with psychic powers and relics...
A khorne obly unit can benefit from the crown....cool
All Daemons (and Daemon Engines) synergize with Daemons' psychic powers and relics, regardless of their faction's keywords. Faction's keywords only come into the picture when you're making a detachment and "possibly" when using faction's stratagems.
FLG has implied that'll be changed in a faq/errata, though how and whether just for demons or for the game as a whole is unsure. It is odd, given as recently as the DGfaq they were doing it the other way around.
ballzonya wrote: Question do those trees (forgot their name) get placed just like placing other units in your deployment? You don't need the snail to drop them do you?
Yes they are a unit in your army just like any other model. you can even deep strike them. Similarly when summoned they cost points.
By summoned do you mean from the snail character? They don't have the daemonic ritual rule, so they cannot be summoned.
Crastok wrote: Okay I really don't understand this but why do chaos spawn not have a 5++? They're clearly daemonic and would definitely make them way more useful. Is it because they cost 33 pts?
Spawn aren't actually daemons. They are just hideously mutated blobs of flesh
Yep. I've run Spawn in 7th edition when their high movement was key. But they really need a price cut now considering Plague Drones do what they do better, faster, more resilient, and more reliably for 1 pt more. It's a pain because I have 11 of the beasties. Even at 30 pts, I'd be hard pressed to pick them over Drones i think Spawn are best used to escort slow moving characters on foot.
So I am looking at the deamon codex right now and am loving it for the most part. I am trying to figure something out though, my deamon army is going to be rolling with my chaos marine army, right now a renegade chapter variety force. I wanted to use forgefiends and soul grinders as the focus of the shooting of the army, but I am not seeing any real options for helping the soul grinder shoot better in the deamon codex except for a deamon prince. I really don't want to pay for a dp to just make the soulgrinder shoot better, what other options could I take?
I don't have my chaos marine codex on me atm, but I am ok using a deathguard detachment and giving the grinder mark of nurgle, or just sticking with chaos marines and mark of tzeench for better save, as my deamon force is a soup list and not dedicated to any single force. Would rather not have to rely on stratagems like demonic Forge from the chaos marines book either.
Or are these guys just not tactically viable for long range fire Support? I am trying to tiptoe the line of fluffy and challenging vs all comers, not focused on taking on any specific army or force.
Neither Foregfiends or Soul Grinders are really viable for long ranged support unless you shove Kharn next to them, buff them with psykic powers, and sacrifice a small goat before the game begins. You will get more mileage out of Havocs, Bikes, Obits, and pretty much any other shooting option.
So I have to find a small goat? Dang. Oh well. Lol
My issue is I already have the models. So if soul grinders are not our demonic answer to range what is besides a skull cannon? And again what God works best with it?
ballzonya wrote: Question do those trees (forgot their name) get placed just like placing other units in your deployment? You don't need the snail to drop them do you?
Yes they are a unit in your army just like any other model. you can even deep strike them. Similarly when summoned they cost points.
By summoned do you mean from the snail character? They don't have the daemonic ritual rule, so they cannot be summoned.
So I am looking at the deamon codex right now and am loving it for the most part. I am trying to figure something out though, my deamon army is going to be rolling with my chaos marine army, right now a renegade chapter variety force. I wanted to use forgefiends and soul grinders as the focus of the shooting of the army, but I am not seeing any real options for helping the soul grinder shoot better in the deamon codex except for a deamon prince. I really don't want to pay for a dp to just make the soulgrinder shoot better, what other options could I take?
I don't have my chaos marine codex on me atm, but I am ok using a deathguard detachment and giving the grinder mark of nurgle, or just sticking with chaos marines and mark of tzeench for better save, as my deamon force is a soup list and not dedicated to any single force. Would rather not have to rely on stratagems like demonic Forge from the chaos marines book either.
Or are these guys just not tactically viable for long range fire Support? I am trying to tiptoe the line of fluffy and challenging vs all comers, not focused on taking on any specific army or force.
Neither Foregfiends or Soul Grinders are really viable for long ranged support unless you shove Kharn next to them, buff them with psykic powers, and sacrifice a small goat before the game begins. You will get more mileage out of Havocs, Bikes, Obits, and pretty much any other shooting option.
So I have to find a small goat? Dang. Oh well. Lol
My issue is I already have the models. So if soul grinders are not our demonic answer to range what is besides a skull cannon? And again what God works best with it?
Honestly, the only list I’m even considering with dinobots in it is a casual play Epidemius one. They *might* finish some units off and charge up Epi; they are not doing as much ranged heavy lifting as Oblits, Blight-Haulers, or Decimators. But, honestly, their main use is as a fire magnet, moving forwards and intimidating the enemy. But even if you throw Kharn, Abaddon or Stratagems are them, they don’t seem to hit the AP/fire rate/range sweet spot.
And that’s not even answering the question of ranged Daemon *faction* firepower. The Soul Grinder, Skull Cannon, and Burning Chariot are not tempting me away from Chaos Soup, I’m sad to say.
CupOfBuckets wrote: Hi!
Long time lurker and now it is time to provide with some content to this lovely thread.
I made a 1500 points mono tzeentch army, and I want to see what you think:
HQ: :
Lord Of Change with Baleful sword
- Psychic Powers: Infernal Gateway, Bolt of Change, Flickering Flames
- Artefacts/Wargear: The impossible Robe
- Comment: Set up middle, draw attention
Change Caster
- Psychic Powers: Gaze of Fate, Boon of Change
- Artefacts/Wargear: -
- Comment: Stay behind troops and provide rerolls
Troops:
10 brimstones
10 blue horror
10 blue horror
- Comment: Objective holders, screen (lack of brimestones)
Use rest of the command points for rerolls, moral negation and +1 invulnerable saves
Game plan: Try to deepstrike as soon as possible and try to position such that I can eliminate key sections of the enemy army.
The Lord of Change with the impossible robe are going move straight against the enemy on a suicide mission to draw attention from enemy gunfire. If he survives (3++) will be a somewhat threat in melee and in Infernal Gateway range.
Screamers are going on for flyer hunt or take down medium vehicle, since the high movement it is not impossible for them to take advantage of the Deepstriking blob aura.
Brimestones/Blue Horrors are going to take and hold objectives and screen the changecaster number 2 and exalted flamers.
Exalted Flamers are going to target various high armor trouble makers.
Possible changes: 1. I dont know if it is worth to choose the deepstriking changecaster as a warlord for the daemonspark (reroll 1 to wound in shooting phase) or if I should make the Lord of Change the warlord so he can get the Incorporeal form (-1 damage).
2. I really want to try out the screamers, but more flamers might be a better choice.
3. Daemon prince with 2 malefic talons is a beast, but I'm worried that deepstriking a Daemon prince for the reroll 1 to hit and a possible charge is a waste of points.
Anyone has some suggestions or see something obvious I should change?
Dp has a PL of 11 so you need 2cp to ds him not 1, and no wings well.... mean is a sitting turkey. Honestly use a piece like the LOC costing 335pts like a distraction carnifex...no ty.
Dp has a PL of 11 so you need 2cp to ds him not 1, and no wings well.... mean is a sitting turkey. Honestly use a piece like the LOC costing 335pts like a distraction carnifex...no ty.
the LoC is a pretty durable model. A magnus the red trhat's always on a 3+ and -1 damage from big weapons. While it's abit suceptible to small arms fire, it's still a tough chicken. I think when your not going first... something is gonna die for sure x.x. That said i've switch to deep striking mine myself as the rest of the stuff i put down doesn't seems to get tabled turn 1.
Dp has a PL of 11 so you need 2cp to ds him not 1, and no wings well.... mean is a sitting turkey. Honestly use a piece like the LOC costing 335pts like a distraction carnifex...no ty.
the LoC is a pretty durable model. A magnus the red trhat's always on a 3+ and -1 damage from big weapons. While it's abit suceptible to small arms fire, it's still a tough chicken. I think when your not going first... something is gonna die for sure x.x. That said i've switch to deep striking mine myself as the rest of the stuff i put down doesn't seems to get tabled turn 1.
Except it doesn't have the amazing powers Magnus has access to and lacks Magnus' glorious damage output.
Dp has a PL of 11 so you need 2cp to ds him not 1, and no wings well.... mean is a sitting turkey. Honestly use a piece like the LOC costing 335pts like a distraction carnifex...no ty.
In the new chaos daemon codex a Daemon Prince has power level 8, 9 with wings. am I missing something?
I don't think wings will be useful enough since the Daemon Prince will deepstrike, I would put wings on him if he were going to be deployed but 1 extra CP deepstrike cost for 4" more movement. naaah
the LoC is a pretty durable model. A magnus the red trhat's always on a 3+ and -1 damage from big weapons. While it's abit suceptible to small arms fire, it's still a tough chicken. I think when your not going first... something is gonna die for sure x.x. That said i've switch to deep striking mine myself as the rest of the stuff i put down doesn't seems to get tabled turn 1.
Yes, I agree that LoC isn't that bad people say it is. 3++ inv save, cheaper, +2 casting, 16 wounds. I also would love to have a Magnus the red but it has to wait until thousands sons codex is revealed.
didn't notice demons DP has a PL of 8, btw you undersimate the big difference between fly and not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Any tips for Khorneys?
What useful/good with the new Dex?
bloodletters, flesh hounds skull cannons and skarbrand now are pretty nice, 20+ letters with stendard+stratagem ds and roll 3d6 to charge, rerollable, near an herald and a Dp to re roll 1's hits like trucks.
blackmage wrote: didn't notice demons DP has a PL of 8, btw you undersimate the big difference between fly and not.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Any tips for Khorneys?
What useful/good with the new Dex?
bloodletters, flesh hounds skull cannons and skarbrand now are pretty nice, 20+ letters with stendard+stratagem ds and roll 3d6 to charge, rerollable, near an herald and a Dp to re roll 1's hits like trucks.
Fly is amazingly useful and the only way your keyword monster Daemon Prince will tango with anything in higher levels of buildings. It's an auto-take when available.
Khorne players (like me!) are going to be using all our CP before the game even starts lol. I'm running 3 Battalions and I'm usually down to 5-6 CP before the first turn. I'll be going lower as I deep strike in more stuff. Feels bad man, until I deep strike then IT'S A GOOD PAIN!
blackmage wrote: didn't notice demons DP has a PL of 8, btw you undersimate the big difference between fly and not.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Any tips for Khorneys?
What useful/good with the new Dex?
bloodletters, flesh hounds skull cannons and skarbrand now are pretty nice, 20+ letters with stendard+stratagem ds and roll 3d6 to charge, rerollable, near an herald and a Dp to re roll 1's hits like trucks.
Fly is amazingly useful and the only way your keyword monster Daemon Prince will tango with anything in higher levels of buildings. It's an auto-take when available.
Khorne players (like me!) are going to be using all our CP before the game even starts lol. I'm running 3 Battalions and I'm usually down to 5-6 CP before the first turn. I'll be going lower as I deep strike in more stuff. Feels bad man, until I deep strike then IT'S A GOOD PAIN!
I think for the most party any pure daemons or mostly daemons player will be bringing 3 battalions and using anywhere from 8-12 CP to open the game.
My current list burning anywhere from 7 to 12 cp on the first turn depending on opponents for relics and deep strike. Just because our relics are soooo awesome
blackmage wrote: didn't notice demons DP has a PL of 8, btw you undersimate the big difference between fly and not.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Any tips for Khorneys?
What useful/good with the new Dex?
bloodletters, flesh hounds skull cannons and skarbrand now are pretty nice, 20+ letters with stendard+stratagem ds and roll 3d6 to charge, rerollable, near an herald and a Dp to re roll 1's hits like trucks.
Fly is amazingly useful and the only way your keyword monster Daemon Prince will tango with anything in higher levels of buildings. It's an auto-take when available.
Khorne players (like me!) are going to be using all our CP before the game even starts lol. I'm running 3 Battalions and I'm usually down to 5-6 CP before the first turn. I'll be going lower as I deep strike in more stuff. Feels bad man, until I deep strike then IT'S A GOOD PAIN!
I think for the most party any pure daemons or mostly daemons player will be bringing 3 battalions and using anywhere from 8-12 CP to open the game.
My current list burning anywhere from 7 to 12 cp on the first turn depending on opponents for relics and deep strike. Just because our relics are soooo awesome
Yeah the Frontline Gaming guys were saying Chaos players are kind of meant to blow all their CP in giant bursts that overwhelm the opponent.
yes seems like 3 battalions is the good way to go, afraid in some tournaments they wont let you replicate detachement so no 3 battalions, you will need a brigade.
blackmage wrote: didn't notice demons DP has a PL of 8, btw you undersimate the big difference between fly and not.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Any tips for Khorneys?
What useful/good with the new Dex?
bloodletters, flesh hounds skull cannons and skarbrand now are pretty nice, 20+ letters with stendard+stratagem ds and roll 3d6 to charge, rerollable, near an herald and a Dp to re roll 1's hits like trucks.
Fly is amazingly useful and the only way your keyword monster Daemon Prince will tango with anything in higher levels of buildings. It's an auto-take when available.
Khorne players (like me!) are going to be using all our CP before the game even starts lol. I'm running 3 Battalions and I'm usually down to 5-6 CP before the first turn. I'll be going lower as I deep strike in more stuff. Feels bad man, until I deep strike then IT'S A GOOD PAIN!
is that one and (funny to see a Dp looking at that scouts controlling an obj on 2nd 3rd floor of a building, laughing at u) ,u can fly over those annoying screening units and charge something worth than 20 poxwalkers or 20 cultists or imperial guards.
blackmage wrote: didn't notice demons DP has a PL of 8, btw you undersimate the big difference between fly and not.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Any tips for Khorneys?
What useful/good with the new Dex?
bloodletters, flesh hounds skull cannons and skarbrand now are pretty nice, 20+ letters with stendard+stratagem ds and roll 3d6 to charge, rerollable, near an herald and a Dp to re roll 1's hits like trucks.
Fly is amazingly useful and the only way your keyword monster Daemon Prince will tango with anything in higher levels of buildings. It's an auto-take when available.
Khorne players (like me!) are going to be using all our CP before the game even starts lol. I'm running 3 Battalions and I'm usually down to 5-6 CP before the first turn. I'll be going lower as I deep strike in more stuff. Feels bad man, until I deep strike then IT'S A GOOD PAIN!
While I am multi god, not mono khorne I use an intense amount of CP. My list is has a total of 15 CP, i use 13 before the first turn. Similarly I have 20 units, 9 start in Deepstrike.
blackmage wrote: didn't notice demons DP has a PL of 8, btw you undersimate the big difference between fly and not.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Any tips for Khorneys?
What useful/good with the new Dex?
bloodletters, flesh hounds skull cannons and skarbrand now are pretty nice, 20+ letters with stendard+stratagem ds and roll 3d6 to charge, rerollable, near an herald and a Dp to re roll 1's hits like trucks.
Fly is amazingly useful and the only way your keyword monster Daemon Prince will tango with anything in higher levels of buildings. It's an auto-take when available.
Khorne players (like me!) are going to be using all our CP before the game even starts lol. I'm running 3 Battalions and I'm usually down to 5-6 CP before the first turn. I'll be going lower as I deep strike in more stuff. Feels bad man, until I deep strike then IT'S A GOOD PAIN!
While I am multi god, not mono khorne I use an intense amount of CP. My list is has a total of 15 CP, i use 13 before the first turn. Similarly I have 20 units, 9 start in Deepstrike.
Care to share this list? It sounds like you made a Brigade.
So would you take a mono Tzeentch Battalion/Brigade or mix with other Gods? The question arises, because I am not certain you will really need the Locus of Trickery.
It could be handy with a LoC or a Demon Prince, but the other units might not need it.
knas wrote: Will be adding some Khorne for BL bombing to my Tzeentch army.
Considering what the ideal bloodletter bomb is, probably will also be DSing in some Pinks/flamers for screen clearing.
20BL + skulltaker?
30BL?
Get a DP in the mix as well? It gets CP thirsty quick!
My 2 cents about this? Just one squad of 20 BL. Costs just 1 CP to deepstrike in, and maybe 1 more CP to ensure that with a 3d6 charge, it will make it into combat. My reasoning? These days, if you are playing an opponent who knows what he is doing, you will be facing a first line of chaff or bubblewrap. And the whole point about bubblewrap is that they are expendable, and they are cheap.
30 BL plus icon plus instrument costs 235 points. a 40 man cultists squad costs 160 points. Your BL squad is going to die after they destroy the bubblewrap the charge. Its unavoidable because they would be within charge and shooting range of the entire opponent's army. The point is that they clear the chaff, and force the opponent to waste time and resources to deal with them while the rest of your army then goes in to take care of him!
Spending too many points on heralds, 30 BL, just costs even more command points and in the end, you are still just using it to destroy one or two bubble wrapped squads.
30 BL will still die when faced against the opponent's entire army. and I think 30 BL plus a herald might be abit of an overkill against just cheap bubblewrap. That initial strike isn't going to win the game all by itself (unless your opponent is a newbie who doesn't know how to bubblewrap). Its about what you use as the second and third wave after that.
knas wrote: Will be adding some Khorne for BL bombing to my Tzeentch army.
Considering what the ideal bloodletter bomb is, probably will also be DSing in some Pinks/flamers for screen clearing.
20BL + skulltaker?
30BL?
Get a DP in the mix as well? It gets CP thirsty quick!
My 2 cents about this? Just one squad of 20 BL. Costs just 1 CP to deepstrike in, and maybe 1 more CP to ensure that with a 3d6 charge, it will make it into combat. My reasoning? These days, if you are playing an opponent who knows what he is doing, you will be facing a first line of chaff or bubblewrap. And the whole point about bubblewrap is that they are expendable, and they are cheap.
30 BL plus icon plus instrument costs 235 points. a 40 man cultists squad costs 160 points. Your BL squad is going to die after they destroy the bubblewrap the charge. Its unavoidable because they would be within charge and shooting range of the entire opponent's army. The point is that they clear the chaff, and force the opponent to waste time and resources to deal with them while the rest of your army then goes in to take care of him!
Spending too many points on heralds, 30 BL, just costs even more command points and in the end, you are still just using it to destroy one or two bubble wrapped squads.
30 BL will still die when faced against the opponent's entire army. and I think 30 BL plus a herald might be abit of an overkill against just cheap bubblewrap. That initial strike isn't going to win the game all by itself (unless your opponent is a newbie who doesn't know how to bubblewrap). Its about what you use as the second and third wave after that.
If you just want to destroy a screen, it might be better to just deep strike Pink Horrors or Flamers and shoot them. I think the reasoning behind Bloodletters is tying up a big part of the army. Otherwise I tend to agree with you.
Two waves of Bloodletters also solves that issue. The first wave removes the chaff turn one, and the second wave hits the important stuff behind the turn after. In a perfect world anyway.
Above is 3 units of 20 Bloodletters with 1 Herald at the front, all deep striking in front of the enemy. The green circle is your 6 inch aura range, and the blue circle is your 8 inch aura range (all approximations, but fairly close to reality). This is what I was looking at running, and even if the Herald doesn't make it into combat everyone should be able to stay within aura range as long as you don't lose too man to overwatch. Now if your Herald does make it into combat, you'll easily keep aura range, but worst case you should be fine.
3x20 Bloodletters + Icon (banner of blood) + Instrument + Herald (Crimson Crown, Rage Incarnate, Locus, Strength Buff) = 550~ points and 7CP. The Super Herald might be a liiiiiittle overkill just to clear a screen, but boy howdy will that screen be dead. And then, if your Herald make is through the incoming firepower, it's a perfect beacon for the rest of your army to rally around.
Edit: this split up into two waves is much better. 20-30 BL in the first wave, 2x20 BL plus Super Herald in the second wave.
I plan on trying a 30 bl with skulltaker on Sunday, with a 10 pink horror as well in deep strike. Pinks go first turn to clear the chaff and bloodletters then charge or wait until turn 2 to deploy / charge depending on enemy deployment. I think that's going to be the "bomb" going forward for my list.
anticitizen013 wrote: One thing to be mindful of is overwatch. If you drop 20x BLs and one dies, you don't get the +1 to hit. I would take a couple extra just for a buffer.
Same reason to take 25-30 Plague Bearers in a unit as well to keep that -1 to hit for as long as possible
For sure. I guess the "safest" unit to deploy only 20 is Pink Horrors since they can shoot before they get shot at in some capacity. Plus those huge units are relatively cheap while still being something the enemy can't ignore. #shootthesmallones
anticitizen013 wrote: One thing to be mindful of is overwatch. If you drop 20x BLs and one dies, you don't get the +1 to hit. I would take a couple extra just for a buffer.
The only issue with that is that even if its 21 or 22 BL, that brings up the cost to deep strike to 2 CP. I suppose it depends on your army detachments and how they work. But Daemons and CSM can do alot of stuff with cp, and we will surely run out of them (possibly even by turn 2 if we are super aggressive in using them). So, I don't know if its worth it to spend that extra 1 more CP just for 2 or 3 more BL.
anticitizen013 wrote: For sure. I guess the "safest" unit to deploy only 20 is Pink Horrors since they can shoot before they get shot at in some capacity. Plus those huge units are relatively cheap while still being something the enemy can't ignore. #shootthesmallones
this is true though all the space m,arine armies, eldar, and tau ahve ways of shooting deep strikers
Automatically Appended Next Post: I fdont think running lots of deep strikers will work out too well. If it gets good enough it's not too much of a stretch to build armies that stop it. that said a fair amount of of deep striking mixed in with boots on the ground and scouts would be a more solid list that's harder to straight up counter.
You could always use a Skulltaker if you take smaller units of bloodletters to get the +1 to hit. Not sure what scenario that is useful for...
The bloodletter bomb is obviously scary, but I see some pretty good reasons to use smaller squads with a skulltaker. I see it as a way of not committing 210pts to a kind of ridiculous amount of damage, and obviously a better way of filling troop slots if you aren't going mono-khorne but want the extra 2 cp from a battalion. A 10 man squad of BLs (benefiting from unstoppable ferocity and a skulltaker) kills 9.6 SMurfs, 11.6 guardsmen, and does 5.7 damage to a Leman Russ.
I'm not saying 10 man squads is the way to go- because even if you deepstrike you want to have some buffer from overwatch- but it's worth talking about subbing in the skulltaker for large squads. Thoughts?
20 is prolly the best number to go. Sure you may lose a few to overwatch and lose the +1 to hit, but chances are you are also charging chaff where you don't need that extra power to clear a path through them. The point of that first drop of 20 is to clear out the chaff, the next drops should be the ones buffed by Heralds and maybe even Skulltaker. THOSE are the heavy hitters that will plink down titans. It's better to drop more for less than more for more, IMO. 30 Bloodletters are going to drop as easy as 20 due to moral.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I still see no reason to take letters to clear screen when pinks exist...
i agree completely. Pinks are more durable for the same price. They'll clear most screen just as well as blood letters will, and can do it reliably for 1 CP with out fear of failing a charge or losing models to over watch.
remember blood letters are basicly IG infantry that cost almost twice as much a guy durability wise. They'll all be in rapid fire range when clearing chaffe.
I'd keep my blood letters at 30 so you can try to tie untis up in combat to keep your blood letters safe from enemy shotoing.
Was surprised by how effective a 10 unit of BL can be when they killed an Avatar of Khaine on their charge round. And of course Tzeentch is the way to go for clearing screens.
Hi
What is best when spaming pink horrors, is it to use squad sizes of 20 or 30, assuming you want to deep strike them?
30 man has obvious reason that they can take more damage before they degrade, but 20 man is more point efficient then it comes to CP. smaller squads makes more detachments that in terns gives more CP.
Of course the FLICKERING FLAMES magic works better with 30 man squads, but does people use this magic anyway?
20 Pink Horrors will do about 10 damage against GEQ units and 13 damage against them with flickering flames.
So it will not be enough to clear 20+ units probably, if they are immun to moral. Otherwise it should be enough.
When playing CSM/Khorne, is having a few units of Letters and a couple units of Zerkers redundent? Or do they each have their own respective uses in CC?
Astmeister wrote: 20 Pink Horrors will do about 10 damage against GEQ units and 13 damage against them with flickering flames. So it will not be enough to clear 20+ units probably, if they are immun to moral. Otherwise it should be enough.
If you don't have a disc herald on the field who can zoom over to give your DS Horrors +1S and cast Flickering Flames on them, then woe is you! The damage output for 30 horrors under those conditions is dramatically higher than you've stated I think:
90 Shots @BS4+ =
45 Wounds @3+ (+1) =
37.5 armour saves @5+ =
An average of 25 dead GEQ from the 30-Horror alpha, or 16.7 from a 20-Horror. They clock in at nearly 1 dead GEQ per model... It's legit.
Astmeister wrote: 20 Pink Horrors will do about 10 damage against GEQ units and 13 damage against them with flickering flames.
So it will not be enough to clear 20+ units probably, if they are immun to moral. Otherwise it should be enough.
If you don't have a disc herald on the field who can zoom over to give your DS Horrors +1S and cast Flickering Flames on them, then woe is you! The damage output for 30 horrors under those conditions is dramatically higher than you've stated I think:
90 Shots @BS4+ =
45 Wounds @3+ (+1) =
37.5 armour saves @5+ =
An average of 25 dead GEQ from the 30-Horror alpha, or 16.7 from a 20-Horror. They clock in at nearly 1 dead GEQ per model... It's legit.
My calculations are correct I think. I just did not include the +1 S of the Herald, because my intention was to just include the flickering flames. It can be cast from 18 inch, so you do not have to put a character in danger.
For +1 to S the damage of 20 Pinks would be 17 dead GEQs. So I don't think you really need 30. The only reason for me to take 30 would be, because you are afraid of Auspex etc. Stratagems. But quite frankly you could also deep strike 6 Flamers for 15 damage on the GEQs.
By my mental arithmetic, adding a DP's rerolls gets the kills per horror just shy of 100% for 20 and just over for 30.
If you've taken a Tzeentch battalion, two units is entirely doable. Wouldn't get to double up with FF but still a pretty good clearance group with captains that can join a charge of Screamers and Flamers pressing on to the crunchy centre.
Bloodletters are also solid for horde clearance and have a different way of surviving retaliation. A 3D6 charge with A2 S5 AP-3 is fairly capable of stage-managing things to envelope the survivors. Then you're locked in the safety of melee, and if the enemy counter-charge, they're feeding you another round of Unstoppable Ferocity.
The most important thing for letters is to leave combat on your opponents turn so you can charge again for the bonus (unless they have flamers or something)
I really dislike "bomb" hammer but this seemed too good not to ask about:
Pox Riders (Forge World)
Take a max unit with a banner/instrument. With stratagems and a well place daemon prince you could have a unit that can:
1. Deep strike turn 1 and charge
2. Is T5 with 5 wounds
3. Has a 4++ and 5+++ (Rerolling ones with the fecundity upgrade on the DP)
4. Does extra damage on 6's (Maybe even double if you spend command points.
5. Is -2 to hit with unit rules and psychic power.
6. adds 1 to it's charge
7. Does either 27 attacks rerolling 1s at S5 ap -1 D3 that generate extra hits on 6s or 45 S4 attack with rerolling wounds and potentially more damage with strats/psychic.
I know getting all of it off is hard, but most of this unit does things in the unit profile, dabble in a power/strat in to do what you want it to do. (For 530 points)
This seems way stronger/cheaper than the bloodcrusher bomb and out performs the bloodletter bomb since it will be a bear to take off the table over time. (You can always bring back models to get them back over 6 models) If anything the opponent will be pouring a ton of firepower into this unit similar to morty.
I would never invest in anything thats charging out of deep trike without knowing 100% it's going to make its charge. Pox Riders may be cheaper than Bloodcrushers, but I know 100% those Bloodcrushers are getting in.
Astmeister wrote: 20 Pink Horrors will do about 10 damage against GEQ units and 13 damage against them with flickering flames.
So it will not be enough to clear 20+ units probably, if they are immun to moral. Otherwise it should be enough.
If you don't have a disc herald on the field who can zoom over to give your DS Horrors +1S and cast Flickering Flames on them, then woe is you! The damage output for 30 horrors under those conditions is dramatically higher than you've stated I think:
90 Shots @BS4+ =
45 Wounds @3+ (+1) =
37.5 armour saves @5+ =
An average of 25 dead GEQ from the 30-Horror alpha, or 16.7 from a 20-Horror. They clock in at nearly 1 dead GEQ per model... It's legit.
My calculations are correct I think. I just did not include the +1 S of the Herald, because my intention was to just include the flickering flames. It can be cast from 18 inch, so you do not have to put a character in danger.
For +1 to S the damage of 20 Pinks would be 17 dead GEQs. So I don't think you really need 30. The only reason for me to take 30 would be, because you are afraid of Auspex etc. Stratagems. But quite frankly you could also deep strike 6 Flamers for 15 damage on the GEQs.
If you're going Horrors, IMO go big (i.e., 30) and make sure they're fully-supported with Flickering Flames, a Herald, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (if you can swing it, but I think a DP is essential for a Tzeentch army because of his close combat proficiency and his awesome to hit buff), and potentially a warlord with Daemonspark nearby.
Against a 30-unit mob of GEQs, one turn of shooting from those fully-buffed Horrors should result in about 34 dead GEQs, so there's even room to dial back on the buffs a bit.
I'm feeling like 2 units of 20 horrors rather than a big unit of 30 might end up being the best for bomb purposes. It has a larger footprint but it also prevents your opponent from focusing down a single unit. Plus at 8PL a piece it still only costs 2 CP for DS purposes.
buddha wrote: I'm feeling like 2 units of 20 horrors rather than a big unit of 30 might end up being the best for bomb purposes. It has a larger footprint but it also prevents your opponent from focusing down a single unit. Plus at 8PL a piece it still only costs 2 CP for DS purposes.
That sounds like a good idea. You will also need troop choices to fill the people in the battalion anyway (if you want to field one).
andysonic1 wrote: I would never invest in anything thats charging out of deep trike without knowing 100% it's going to make its charge. Pox Riders may be cheaper than Bloodcrushers, but I know 100% those Bloodcrushers are getting in.
2D6 + 1 with a reroll to a die is still an pretty high chance, and even if they miss the charge, what exactly is going to crack that unit? (Blood crushers aren't exactly tough)
Off hand with the -2 to hit going and 4++ against las cannons on space marines (an extreme opponent example), you are tanking 4.5 lascannon shots per wound....that's nuts. (22.5 shots to kill one model)
Against Bolters, 27 shots per wound. (135 shots to kill one model)
If you throw in reroll 1s strat, it gets silly.
IE: If you miss with blood crushers your game is over, if you miss with this unit you can laugh maniacally.
If you're going Horrors, IMO go big (i.e., 30) and make sure they're fully-supported with Flickering Flames, a Herald, a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch (if you can swing it, but I think a DP is essential for a Tzeentch army because of his close combat proficiency and his awesome to hit buff), and potentially a warlord with Daemonspark nearby.
Against a 30-unit mob of GEQs, one turn of shooting from those fully-buffed Horrors should result in about 34 dead GEQs, so there's even room to dial back on the buffs a bit.
I wouldn't really dial it back. The other advantage of the shooting squad is that you can more easily split your fire over multiple units. That way of you can insure you kill an entire battalions worth of GEQ.
Also some one said if you don't have the disc Herald you might not get the buff. This really shouldn't be an issue at all. You cab always chain back a model or two from the pink horror squad to do the baton pass on the str aura. You only need one horror to bask In the aura after all.
yes pox riders are extremly though, crushers hits hard but then they die pretty easily, no army can take out 9 pox riders in 1 single turn of fire, in particular if they get +1 to their invul save. 45 wounds saving at 4++ 5+++ over T 5 is huge.
I guess I'm just approaching it from a different perspective since I'm not about to drop 9 Bloodcrushers out of the warp anytime soon. You're right that 9 Pox Riders are going to last longer than 9 Bloodcrushers. I'd only drop in 3 Crushers at a time to save CP and with full knowledge that they aren't going to be around long if they are the only big target. From a Khorne Daemons / CSM player's perspective I'm not super worried about Pox Riders since I'll be punching them instead of shooting them. I can see how other armies would be sweating bullets when those things tear through the warp 9 inches away, though, and the ungodly amount of firepower needed to remove them. It seems like there are a lot of Bomb possibilities with every god that are just as viable as the other if you do it right.
I know it isn't strictly tactica but... as the models are out of production right now. I'd like to know from a gaming perspective about these models as conversions. Size wise that is.
What does everyone think of modifying the Gryph-Hounds models from AOS to be fiends? I think the base bodies are great... would just need to add a new tail and upper body/head/arms?
matt123456790 wrote: 45 wounds with T5, 4++/5+++ is indeed huge but so is the 567 point and 4CP price tag (deep strike and +1 inv).
4cp's are nothing,considering how easy is build a brigade of use 3 battalions, 567pts is a lot i agree, but i prefer them than 475pts of Mortarion which die in 1 single turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
andysonic1 wrote: I guess I'm just approaching it from a different perspective since I'm not about to drop 9 Bloodcrushers out of the warp anytime soon. You're right that 9 Pox Riders are going to last longer than 9 Bloodcrushers. I'd only drop in 3 Crushers at a time to save CP and with full knowledge that they aren't going to be around long if they are the only big target. From a Khorne Daemons / CSM player's perspective I'm not super worried about Pox Riders since I'll be punching them instead of shooting them. I can see how other armies would be sweating bullets when those things tear through the warp 9 inches away, though, and the ungodly amount of firepower needed to remove them. It seems like there are a lot of Bomb possibilities with every god that are just as viable as the other if you do it right.
try to remove them in CaC too... then you see you need tons and tons of attacks, i ve seen what a big unit of pox riders can do, hit them at -2 means most of ur attacks will need a 5+ to hit, easy to say very hard to do.
My only hesitation on the pox riders is it is pure $$expensive$$ cheese that will eventually get nerfed into oblivion. (You watch, they are going to start showing up in tourney play here really soon, people love their deathstars in 40k.)
How much have people played with a nurgling tide with the new bilepiper? Seems like a decent hoard approach (ala conscripts) to support daemon princes/heavies and perform deepstrike board denial.
I'm thinking a battalion or two of nurglings/bilepiper with a khorne bloodletter bomb and skull cannons, something like this:
Two Nurgle Battlions of:
1x bilepiper
1x DP with wings
3x Nurglings
(One detachment has a poxbringer as warlord)
1x Khorne spearhead with:
1x BT of unfettered fury w/ skullreaver
1x bloodletters (30) with banner/instrument
2x khorne dogs (eight per unit)
3x skull cannons
Nurglings keep deepstrikers out of my deployment on turn 1, Khorne does the attacking, nurgle does the support. 10 CP will allow lots of shenanigans after the Bloodletter bomb.
Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sfshilo wrote: My only hesitation on the pox riders is it is pure $$expensive$$ cheese that will eventually get nerfed into oblivion. (You watch, they are going to start showing up in tourney play here really soon, people love their deathstars in 40k.)
They do seem a liiiiiiittle undercosted, or Bloodcrushers are a liiiittle overcosted, one or the other. Regardless I wouldn't call this a deathstar so much as a deathunit. It doesn't need much help. Even the Bloodletter bomb only needs one Herald (with Crown, Warlord Trait, and Detachment Locus, to be fair).
andysonic1 wrote: Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.
Well the blood thirstwr does do 1 attack more base. Also on 6s he gets more attacks. He doesn't need to bring the axe and could take the armor or something ekse, and he has a horde killer profile.
That said the daemon Prince is pretty nasty woth the skullreaver, but you can only ever habe one... and against some opponet's he'll be useless if they don't give you something big to kill.
andysonic1 wrote: Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.
Well the blood thirstwr does do 1 attack more base. Also on 6s he gets more attacks. He doesn't need to bring the axe and could take the armor or something ekse, and he has a horde killer profile.
That said the daemon Prince is pretty nasty woth the skullreaver, but you can only ever habe one... and against some opponet's he'll be useless if they don't give you something big to kill.
Useless? Allowing every other Khorne Daemon nearby re-roll 1's is not useless. Skullreaver deletes other units with ease and the occasional mortal wounds seals their fates. He hides behind other units and can only be picked out by a very small amount of special units. His stats don't degrade. It just makes more sense to bring the Prince over the Thirster if you're trying to be competitive.
andysonic1 wrote: Why a Bloodthirster and not a Daemon Prince with Skullreaver? You're only gaining some moral mitigation for the price of two Daemon Princes, and even then Khorne units die in droves, it's kind of what they do, just take more of them if that's your worry. I feel like re-rolling 1's is better on nearby Skull Cannons.
Well the blood thirstwr does do 1 attack more base. Also on 6s he gets more attacks. He doesn't need to bring the axe and could take the armor or something ekse, and he has a horde killer profile.
That said the daemon Prince is pretty nasty woth the skullreaver, but you can only ever habe one... and against some opponet's he'll be useless if they don't give you something big to kill.
Useless? Allowing every other Khorne Daemon nearby re-roll 1's is not useless. Skullreaver deletes other units with ease and the occasional mortal wounds seals their fates. He hides behind other units and can only be picked out by a very small amount of special units. His stats don't degrade. It just makes more sense to bring the Prince over the Thirster if you're trying to be competitive.
Yeah if you reread my post no where in there did I say the blood thirster is better than the daemon prince.
That said in horde situations the daemon Prince really doesn't have much to do. He's just chilling out with his thumb up his butt. Yeah he's amazing when you get him into a rank or something, but if your just slobbering cheap rhinos and drop pods your gonna be sad. Even more so since he can reliably deep strike and charge so he has to take atleast a turn marching into conbat wings or not.
The reroll 1s thing doesn't get you That much value. It's a 1/6th increase in damage for units around them. This mean you need to buff 150 blood letters attacking before he's grabbed his points back on that alone.
Again not saying his terrible or bad. He's pretty much always a good take, but there are situations where he can let you down where a blood thirster won't as the blood thirst kills everything pretty well, and woth out need for any relics.
sfshilo wrote: My only hesitation on the pox riders is it is pure $$expensive$$ cheese that will eventually get nerfed into oblivion. (You watch, they are going to start showing up in tourney play here really soon, people love their deathstars in 40k.)
How much have people played with a nurgling tide with the new bilepiper? Seems like a decent hoard approach (ala conscripts) to support daemon princes/heavies and perform deepstrike board denial.
I'm thinking a battalion or two of nurglings/bilepiper with a khorne bloodletter bomb and skull cannons, something like this:
Two Nurgle Battlions of:
1x bilepiper
1x DP with wings
3x Nurglings
(One detachment has a poxbringer as warlord)
1x Khorne spearhead with:
1x BT of unfettered fury w/ skullreaver
1x bloodletters (30) with banner/instrument
2x khorne dogs (eight per unit)
3x skull cannons
Nurglings keep deepstrikers out of my deployment on turn 1, Khorne does the attacking, nurgle does the support. 10 CP will allow lots of shenanigans after the Bloodletter bomb.
Skull cannons are cheap and hit on 3+s, but I need to do some math and proxy some to see if they're really worth what you're giving up 300pts for. Either way, split the flesh hounds into more units to get more deny rolls (5+5+6 is fine)- that'll also allow you to make it an outrider. That way you can play with the # of skull cannons instead of being obligated to take 3
buddha wrote: If you don't want to invest in pox riders a 9 man plauge drone squad with icon and horn will fill the exact same role.
1 less wound, no ap-1 weapons, lower damage output and no -1 to be hit, close but not the same
All true but also around 200 less points for 9 drones. If you have pox riders play them for sure but I expect the Nerf hammer and for their real world cost I think 9 drones is the safer bet.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I know it isn't strictly tactica but... as the models are out of production right now. I'd like to know from a gaming perspective about these models as conversions. Size wise that is.
What does everyone think of modifying the Gryph-Hounds models from AOS to be fiends? I think the base bodies are great... would just need to add a new tail and upper body/head/arms?
Or would Centigors maybe work better.... hrm!
Are fiends of Slaanesh out of production? I can still get them through the web store in my region.
As for proxies, generally the rule of cool trumps all. As long as the base is the same and the silhouette is roughly the same size then most players will be OK with it.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I know it isn't strictly tactica but... as the models are out of production right now. I'd like to know from a gaming perspective about these models as conversions. Size wise that is.
What does everyone think of modifying the Gryph-Hounds models from AOS to be fiends? I think the base bodies are great... would just need to add a new tail and upper body/head/arms?
Or would Centigors maybe work better.... hrm!
Are fiends of Slaanesh out of production? I can still get them through the web store in my region.
As for proxies, generally the rule of cool trumps all. As long as the base is the same and the silhouette is roughly the same size then most players will be OK with it.
I'm sorry I didn't mean out of production, I meant out of stock on the GW store. Though they have been out of stock for awhile. So it makes me wonder.. *crosses fingers*. Thanks for the tip on how people view conversions!
Sasori wrote: What do people think of the Lord of change?
Been loving mine, built him with the sword and haven't regretted it yet.
He's so hard to kill that my opponents have begun to flat out ignore him, which only works to their peril as it leaves him free to deny, buff and punish misplaced units. He'll usually only make back his points worth of personally slain models if your opponent keeps letting you punish with gateway or leaves vehicles open to hack apart with the sword, but the level of disruption he can apply, and the fire magnet he creates to protect your other units for an unfamiliar/unprepared opponent is great. Best used with your second HQ having the reroll granting power.
I've found that the damage reduction warlord trait isn't super-critical, instead I've taken to using bolt/gate/flickering with the daemonspark trait to buff deepstriking horrors/flamers.
dan2026 wrote: What's the feeling on Flesh Hounds at the moment?
At 15 points a pop, they seem pretty solid.
Last four games I ran them in one unit of 20 as a screen. They were AMAZING as a melee alpha strike screening unit, the only problem I ran into was warping the giant unit around terrain LOL. I'm dropping down to either 2x8 units or 1x10, but only because I'm also trying to use CSM and need the points. I feel 2x8 or 3x5 are the "optimal" amount.
dan2026 wrote: What's the feeling on Flesh Hounds at the moment?
At 15 points a pop, they seem pretty solid.
Last four games I ran them in one unit of 20 as a screen. They were AMAZING as a melee alpha strike screening unit, the only problem I ran into was warping the giant unit around terrain LOL. I'm dropping down to either 2x8 units or 1x10, but only because I'm also trying to use CSM and need the points. I feel 2x8 or 3x5 are the "optimal" amount.
Good to know. I can't wait to get my doges back on the table. They were hard to stomach at 20 a piece. I wonder if a list could be built around 40 or so as a hammer to the anvil of a couple deepstriking bombs (say, horrors and bloodletters?) Or are they not hammer-y enough to fit that role?
Alright finish off this here list for me folks. Gonna go dive deep in to the warp and give my soul to the dark lords of chaos, but i need to figure otu the one last thing to fit into the list. Don't want alot of list critic but if you have a sick idea lay it on me:
Basicly it's fill in the blank:
Battlation
****Blank****
Great unclean one Bilesword + flail (most likely deep striking)
4x nurglings
4x nurglings
3x nurglings
Battlion (khorne)
Daemon Prince of khorne demonic axe (depending on opponent list i'll use a CP to equip him with the axe)
Blood master
30x bloodletters w/ icon +instrument
10x bloodletters
10x bloodletters
Question 1.
What do i put in the blank??? i've been considering a Nurgle or Tzneetch daemon prince. With the nurgle prince with claws. He can recieve the virulence blessing buff and make great use of it, and double down on the nurgle locus; or use nurgles rot and wade into a horde to hit as many units as possible. The tzneetch prince could have boon of change or gaze of fate: Boon of change is a ltitle week but it works really well on the LoC and Daemon prince for both taking them past serval important stat hurdles. Gaze of fate is our way of generating CP as we basicly can get a free command point reroll per turn.
question 2.
Should i make the khorne detachment a mixed detachment?? I know the lovus of reroll just about garentees the charge, but the blood letters already ahve a 83% chance ot make it into combat and with CP rerolls or gaze of rate it's almost as strong as a full reroll. I would use this to add another squad of pink horrors and some nurglings to the list.
Why not? They might not be the super units like Mortarion or Magnus, but they have a lot of staying power, can use deep strike and are serious psykers with melee capabilities.
"They might not be the super units like Mortarion or Magnus"
Stopped reading there.
All they do is die and give away VPs. Just take hordes + characters and see your opponent's anti-tank shooting into 1 wound units and to control the board better for objectives and to prevent deepstrikes.
What do greater daemons do? +3 leadership. Wow-wee.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "They might not be the super units like Mortarion or Magnus"
Stopped reading there.
All they do is die and give away VPs. Just take hordes + characters and see your opponent's anti-tank shooting into 1 wound units and to control the board better for objectives and to prevent deepstrikes.
What do greater daemons do? +3 leadership. Wow-wee.
If you stopped reading there, I don't see any reason to discuss the topic with you.
Whilst the LoC I can see some use to: 3++ re-rolling 1s staying power, +2 to psychic tests and average damage output, but I can't see the use of GUOs: slow moving, average damage output (less if you don't have buffs) and good staying power. However just having good staying power isn't enough in an edition where things doe so easily, it needs to actually do something as well.
mrhappyface wrote: Whilst the LoC I can see some use to: 3++ re-rolling 1s staying power, +2 to psychic tests and average damage output, but I can't see the use of GUOs: slow moving, average damage output (less if you don't have buffs) and good staying power. However just having good staying power isn't enough in an edition where things doe so easily, it needs to actually do something as well.
The GUO is slightly better in melee than the LoC. Also his spells are not bad for debuffing units. If he comes in via deep strike, it could be quite problematic to remove him before he kills something.
i understand rvd1 point of view, this edition is made for "hordes" big guys suffers a lot too much multi damage high strenght weapons around, in my personal experience more and average is better than few and strong. Btw still LOC can have a place just dont expect too much from him and expect in some matches he can leave the table early, personally i stopped play "big models" like Mortarion Magnus GD's and so so, i stay stick to my infantry supported by some characters and couple of Dp's easy to hide behind 60 plaguebearers or brimstones, at least most of my opponent antitank is wasted.
mrhappyface wrote: Whilst the LoC I can see some use to: 3++ re-rolling 1s staying power, +2 to psychic tests and average damage output, but I can't see the use of GUOs: slow moving, average damage output (less if you don't have buffs) and good staying power. However just having good staying power isn't enough in an edition where things doe so easily, it needs to actually do something as well.
The GUO is slightly better in melee than the LoC. Also his spells are not bad for debuffing units. If he comes in via deep strike, it could be quite problematic to remove him before he kills something.
in you play mono Nurgle is not easy get the GUO charge something valuable, you dont have decent fire to remove screening units and often ur GUO get in melee with unwhorty targets like coscripts, brimstones, cultists
rvd1ofakind wrote: "They might not be the super units like Mortarion or Magnus"
Stopped reading there.
All they do is die and give away VPs. Just take hordes + characters and see your opponent's anti-tank shooting into 1 wound units and to control the board better for objectives and to prevent deepstrikes.
What do greater daemons do? +3 leadership. Wow-wee.
If you stopped reading there, I don't see any reason to discuss the topic with you.
I didn't ACTUALLY stop there... It's a forum joke/thing. They're just not worth it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: "They might not be the super units like Mortarion or Magnus"
Stopped reading there.
All they do is die and give away VPs. Just take hordes + characters and see your opponent's anti-tank shooting into 1 wound units and to control the board better for objectives and to prevent deepstrikes.
What do greater daemons do? +3 leadership. Wow-wee.
If you stopped reading there, I don't see any reason to discuss the topic with you.
I didn't ACTUALLY stop there... It's a forum joke/thing. They're just not worth it.
Your answer sounded like you really stopped reading. Because I already gave a few reasons why you could use the GUO and the LoC. I am of course aware that the +3 to Ld is not very amazing. You have a valid point in saying that you can mitigate the enemies heavy weapons by using only infantry models. However, most non troops demons have more than 1 wound anyway, so I am not sure that this will work. Or are you seriously proposing to use just Horrors/Demonettes/Bloodletters/Pleaguebearers? This would be pretty boring...
So even though we're not talking about mono Nurgle lists, can we talk about mono Nurgle lists...? I've got a whole bunch of Nurgle stuff for AoS and it would be good to make them pull double duty in 40k too. Any tips? Presumably it's worth me looking at DG stuff too, for a bit of fire support?
I am having trouble trying to figure out how or if it's worth running seekers of slaanesh. I play an undivided deamon army so no loci, but seekers just seem underwhelming to me. They are fast but don't have the toughness / strength / or armor to really look like they can do much vs say fiends of slaanesh. Does anyone have any experience with how to the run them right now? Even sticking a Herald on them doesn't seem all that effective for the points. This sucks cause I like the models any have 6 of them.
Start with Epidemius, scrivener, bilepiper and poxbringer.
Add 90 plaguebearers, handful of units of nurglings.
You now have a super hard core. (and 9cp for double battalion)
Add plague drones/beasts of nurgle/poxriders to taste.
If you go with Beasts then tack snailboy on and some trees. TBH trees are probably worth it regardless of snailboy
Haha well this isnt far from what I’ve already got painted, so that’s a bonus! What’s the new GUO/Rotigus like? The best loadout in AoS is bell/blade, but that doesn’t look to be the case in 40k.
The GUO and Rotigus in a vacuum are ok. The problem is Nurgle doesn't like vacuums.
Everything else in your army wants anti-infantry firepower aimed at it. Which means when you put the big boy down all the enemies anti-tank will point at it. Resulting in a large dead nurgly dude. If you're bringing monsters in 40k you want to bring a lot of monsters. As nurgle works well with infantry saturation the big dudes suffer.
Bell is good for its regenerative properties. Its obnoxious to bring back drones and beasts with. You do trade out some punch for it though.
Depends on what you want the GUO to do. Punch version is sword and flail. Support version is bell and blade
I cannot fathom what the GUO is supposed to do.
Nurgle in general looks ok but not stellar. It seems to be full of potential force dividers, take a middle of the road unit throw its points or more of buffing at it and get something on par with stuff other Gods/Factions get as is.
I noticed that you can deep strike Horticulus Slimux 9” from an enemy unit, and then immediately afterwards plant a Feculent Gnarlmaw within 3”, which means the Gnarlmaw can be placed within 3” of the enemy unit.
If you manage to succeed your charge with Slimux (and a couple of Beasts of Nurgle), next turn you will force your opponent to choose between two Mortal Wounds triggers. Or he falls back and suffers them from Horticulus and his Beasts, or if doesn't fall back he will be in MW range from the Feculent Gnarlmaw.
Not a game winning strategy but an extra way of annoying your opponent
Sneggy wrote: The GUO and Rotigus in a vacuum are ok. The problem is Nurgle doesn't like vacuums.
Everything else in your army wants anti-infantry firepower aimed at it. Which means when you put the big boy down all the enemies anti-tank will point at it. Resulting in a large dead nurgly dude. If you're bringing monsters in 40k you want to bring a lot of monsters. As nurgle works well with infantry saturation the big dudes suffer.
Bell is good for its regenerative properties. Its obnoxious to bring back drones and beasts with. You do trade out some punch for it though.
Depends on what you want the GUO to do. Punch version is sword and flail. Support version is bell and blade
I totally agree with what you are saying but the math doe of doesnt. If you math out the GUO and how many shots it takes to put him down with Las cannon and woth rapid fire weapons in rapid fire range (which is about where he'll want to start on my list). 243 guards men is how many you need to down him or about 972.
Then we look at Las cannons and you'll need an average of 34.7 of those or 867 points which actualy isn't much of an advantage.
Usually this gap is about double. However than to the invulns and resilience that gap is almost completely removed. Add in that when he comes down he can attempt to miasma him, and you can warp surge him if you are really scared for its safety. He becomes a rather durable model who requires an entire armies worth of fire power or more to maybe kill.
Now that goes away if i try to do the monster mash like you say. I can't warp surge or miasma 2 GUOs, and I can't put the impossible robes in 2 fate weavers, but it doesn't matter because shooting your Las cannons at them is quite so cost effective, and weapons like plasma guns or plasma weapon s where it be come s just as point effort to shoot a blood letter as it is to shoot one of the two big guys.
TlDR: when he drops down the GUO requires entire armies worth of shooting to kill (about 1900pts of the best shooting the game has). While the Loc is actualy more cost effectively killed with rapid fire weaponry that isn't plasma.
Hrudian wrote: I noticed that you can deep strike Horticulus Slimux 9” from an enemy unit, and then immediately afterwards plant a Feculent Gnarlmaw within 3”, which means the Gnarlmaw can be placed within 3” of the enemy unit.
If you manage to succeed your charge with Slimux (and a couple of Beasts of Nurgle), next turn you will force your opponent to choose between two Mortal Wounds triggers. Or he falls back and suffers them from Horticulus and his Beasts, or if doesn't fall back he will be in MW range from the Feculent Gnarlmaw.
Not a game winning strategy but an extra way of annoying your opponent
That’s not annoying, that’s a gift. You suicide slimux for the chance to do what? A single mortal wound?
Hrudian wrote: I noticed that you can deep strike Horticulus Slimux 9” from an enemy unit, and then immediately afterwards plant a Feculent Gnarlmaw within 3”, which means the Gnarlmaw can be placed within 3” of the enemy unit.
If you manage to succeed your charge with Slimux (and a couple of Beasts of Nurgle), next turn you will force your opponent to choose between two Mortal Wounds triggers. Or he falls back and suffers them from Horticulus and his Beasts, or if doesn't fall back he will be in MW range from the Feculent Gnarlmaw.
Not a game winning strategy but an extra way of annoying your opponent
That’s not annoying, that’s a gift. You suicide slimux for the chance to do what? A single mortal wound?
Well, in my case Horticulus will deepstrike together with the support of 4 Beasts of Nurgle, 30 Plaguebearers, a GUO and a walking Daemon Prince. Like I said, nothing gamechanging but it struck me you could plant the tree right after deepstriking.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Why are you taking the GUO...
Or the LoC....
or squads of 10 letters?
Or Bloodmaster instead of skulltaker?
as above both the GUO and LoC are very durable models and together it's hard to take out both let alone one when you look at the above number information. the GUO when he comes down require entire armies of some fo the ebst shooting avaible to reliably kill, and similar is true for the LoC who needs at least 1400pts of dedicated shooting to finish off.
The squads of 10 blood letters are thier to fill battlaion for 3 cp that are spent of the 30 deep striking blood letters. As is one of the question i'm not sure i like the 10 bloodletter they are only there to make a khorne detachment for reroll charges and other than that they act as chaffe for the daemon princes to hide in, and as objective grabers. As per one of the question i asked, is it worth having the khorne detachment or would it be better to bust it down and take more pink horrors by making it a mixed detachment. I kinda wished you would have just answered that question instead... it would have been more constructive... and would have answered my question...
Why would i take the skulltaker??? he cost more point than the blood master, for a unit that wont be charging turn 1, provides no needed buffs to my bloodletter bomb that's already hitting oin 2s, and all i want is +1 str so i can would GEQ on 2s or plague marine level stuff on 3s if i need to, which is way more signigant than anything a skulltaker can bring. If it's just for the +1 to hit buff?? i'd rather spend 70 point on 10 more blood letters actualy getting into combat turn one and doing thier damage, while also providing +1 to hit than skull taker for 84pts who does nothing turn 1 and is probably alone turn 2....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrhappyface wrote: Whilst the LoC I can see some use to: 3++ re-rolling 1s staying power, +2 to psychic tests and average damage output, but I can't see the use of GUOs: slow moving, average damage output (less if you don't have buffs) and good staying power. However just having good staying power isn't enough in an edition where things doe so easily, it needs to actually do something as well.
durability the GUO is about up there with morty. he last that armor save which is not insignifgant, but in that he becomes considerable more vulnerable to las cannon and such. The GUO cost ~155pts less than morty but has the same wounds/toughness/ifell no pain/-1 to invulnerablewhich all makes him more durable to las cannon fire than morty is, and with rumored exclusive access to warp surge and denizens he is a absolute tank compared to morty whjo can get sniped off the table on the first turn. From that damage wise point for point t heres some trade offs for sure. the GUO against big thing for the points just put in more work and that before you throw on virulence bless and notice the nurgle locus making him even more powerful. Smaller thing morty has the grenade that could trade off with the flail and he has the reaping attack that the GUO sort of doesn't have until you realize the GUO has shrivel pox, nurgles rot, and stream of curroption that he can tach into against armies where either spell is more powerful which more often than not will out pace plague wind and curse of the leper. That said morty has better range on his spell.
So i think under that comparison i give the nod to the GUO, while he might be alittle less punch against hordes of stuff atleast you'll get to play with the thing for a turn or two before it dies unlike morty who dies turn one against most list if your opponent goes first. Interestingly morty has been in competive list and has placed well
i dont know where you play but... mathammer make me laugh,,,did you forget how many stratagems/psy powers/abilities exist making weapons far more lethal? re rolls, plus to damage, malus to saves, weapons causing mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.. should i go on?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Why are you taking the GUO...
Or the LoC....
or squads of 10 letters?
Or Bloodmaster instead of skulltaker?
as above both the GUO and LoC are very durable models and together it's hard to take out both let alone one when you look at the above number information. the GUO when he comes down require entire armies of some fo the ebst shooting avaible to reliably kill, and similar is true for the LoC who needs at least 1400pts of dedicated shooting to finish off.
The squads of 10 blood letters are thier to fill battlaion for 3 cp that are spent of the 30 deep striking blood letters. As is one of the question i'm not sure i like the 10 bloodletter they are only there to make a khorne detachment for reroll charges and other than that they act as chaffe for the daemon princes to hide in, and as objective grabers. As per one of the question i asked, is it worth having the khorne detachment or would it be better to bust it down and take more pink horrors by making it a mixed detachment. I kinda wished you would have just answered that question instead... it would have been more constructive... and would have answered my question...
Why would i take the skulltaker??? he cost more point than the blood master, for a unit that wont be charging turn 1, provides no needed buffs to my bloodletter bomb that's already hitting oin 2s, and all i want is +1 str so i can would GEQ on 2s or plague marine level stuff on 3s if i need to, which is way more signigant than anything a skulltaker can bring. If it's just for the +1 to hit buff?? i'd rather spend 70 point on 10 more blood letters actualy getting into combat turn one and doing thier damage, while also providing +1 to hit than skull taker for 84pts who does nothing turn 1 and is probably alone turn 2....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrhappyface wrote: Whilst the LoC I can see some use to: 3++ re-rolling 1s staying power, +2 to psychic tests and average damage output, but I can't see the use of GUOs: slow moving, average damage output (less if you don't have buffs) and good staying power. However just having good staying power isn't enough in an edition where things doe so easily, it needs to actually do something as well.
durability the GUO is about up there with morty. he last that armor save which is not insignifgant, but in that he becomes considerable more vulnerable to las cannon and such. The GUO cost ~155pts less than morty but has the same wounds/toughness/ifell no pain/-1 to invulnerablewhich all makes him more durable to las cannon fire than morty is, and with rumored exclusive access to warp surge and denizens he is a absolute tank compared to morty whjo can get sniped off the table on the first turn. From that damage wise point for point t heres some trade offs for sure. the GUO against big thing for the points just put in more work and that before you throw on virulence bless and notice the nurgle locus making him even more powerful. Smaller thing morty has the grenade that could trade off with the flail and he has the reaping attack that the GUO sort of doesn't have until you realize the GUO has shrivel pox, nurgles rot, and stream of curroption that he can tach into against armies where either spell is more powerful which more often than not will out pace plague wind and curse of the leper. That said morty has better range on his spell.
So i think under that comparison i give the nod to the GUO, while he might be alittle less punch against hordes of stuff atleast you'll get to play with the thing for a turn or two before it dies unlike morty who dies turn one against most list if your opponent goes first. Interestingly morty has been in competive list and has placed well
Mortarion also has access to Blades of Putrefaction, Death to the False Emperor, and Veterans of the Long War. If he's within range of a Daemon Prince's bubble, he's generating an extra attack (and remember, these are those hideously powerful attacks from Silence) on to-hit rolls of 5+, and extra mortal wounds on to-wound rolls of 5+. He's super-duper killy and can easily delete a 30-model unit of GEQs a turn by himself.
blackmage wrote: i dont know where you play but... mathammer make me laugh,,,did you forget how many stratagems/psy powers/abilities exist making weapons far more lethal? re rolls, plus to damage, malus to saves, weapons causing mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.. should i go on?
yes you are very right you can greatly multiple the effectiveness of your damage out put but you get alot more if you multiple 10 vs if you multiple .1..... and as such the GUO is literally the most durable thing in the game by a large margin on the turn it arive for the point. The LoC is also considerably durabile and very reliable as it's durability comes from items you can jsut take as you please. By comparison morty and magnus fall quite short and both have to start on the table and need a turn to buff themselves to actualy achive thier levels of durability.
As such math hammer does matter when you compare it other things, and again when i use my own combos to mitigate my opponents combos of damage, which wile extensive still isn't enough to bring both fo them down when they arrive. Again comparing list thath ave palces very well in tournament have brought boith magnus and morty who for various reasons fall short in terms of durability and maybe alittle better in damage to the GUO and the LoC, while they also are a smaller hit on the points price on your list.
To say mathammer makes you lauigh is like saying comparing models at all is pointless, and if you think that's the case would you mind buying my scatter bikes off me i'll get em to you at a 75% discount what i got em for. It's a pretty good deal.
From there use mortal wounds hurt, but the vast majority of a armies mortal wound output is restricted to the nearist target and the psykic phase.. when the two big guys who up the closest thing will be bloodletters, pink horrors, and if i went first nurglings. As the psykic phase happens before the shooting phase, being forced to target the closest thing is pretty poor as you can use your shooting to clear up the teleported in screens. Other than that there are a few ranged weapons that do mortal wounds that are used a whole ton and not enough to make any major impact, and most stratagems for mortal wound generation tend not to be used very often in the competitive seen as they require you to bring specific low cost effectiveness weapons.
So two thing:
just because you can kill stuff doesn't make it bad... you can kill everything, and if this was the case than the nurgle tress would be the best because they can't die.
I know math hammer isn't the beat all end all and thier is an intangible aspect to the game that matters. Those have to be discused... that said all the concerns where literally "they don't do damage and they die"... the math hammer shows well they do okay to good damage and they are actualy the best at not dying when compare to other competitive picks. Thing are best used in context.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Why are you taking the GUO...
Or the LoC....
or squads of 10 letters?
Or Bloodmaster instead of skulltaker?
as above both the GUO and LoC are very durable models and together it's hard to take out both let alone one when you look at the above number information. the GUO when he comes down require entire armies of some fo the ebst shooting avaible to reliably kill, and similar is true for the LoC who needs at least 1400pts of dedicated shooting to finish off.
The squads of 10 blood letters are thier to fill battlaion for 3 cp that are spent of the 30 deep striking blood letters. As is one of the question i'm not sure i like the 10 bloodletter they are only there to make a khorne detachment for reroll charges and other than that they act as chaffe for the daemon princes to hide in, and as objective grabers. As per one of the question i asked, is it worth having the khorne detachment or would it be better to bust it down and take more pink horrors by making it a mixed detachment. I kinda wished you would have just answered that question instead... it would have been more constructive... and would have answered my question...
Why would i take the skulltaker??? he cost more point than the blood master, for a unit that wont be charging turn 1, provides no needed buffs to my bloodletter bomb that's already hitting oin 2s, and all i want is +1 str so i can would GEQ on 2s or plague marine level stuff on 3s if i need to, which is way more signigant than anything a skulltaker can bring. If it's just for the +1 to hit buff?? i'd rather spend 70 point on 10 more blood letters actualy getting into combat turn one and doing thier damage, while also providing +1 to hit than skull taker for 84pts who does nothing turn 1 and is probably alone turn 2....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrhappyface wrote: Whilst the LoC I can see some use to: 3++ re-rolling 1s staying power, +2 to psychic tests and average damage output, but I can't see the use of GUOs: slow moving, average damage output (less if you don't have buffs) and good staying power. However just having good staying power isn't enough in an edition where things doe so easily, it needs to actually do something as well.
durability the GUO is about up there with morty. he last that armor save which is not insignifgant, but in that he becomes considerable more vulnerable to las cannon and such. The GUO cost ~155pts less than morty but has the same wounds/toughness/ifell no pain/-1 to invulnerablewhich all makes him more durable to las cannon fire than morty is, and with rumored exclusive access to warp surge and denizens he is a absolute tank compared to morty whjo can get sniped off the table on the first turn. From that damage wise point for point t heres some trade offs for sure. the GUO against big thing for the points just put in more work and that before you throw on virulence bless and notice the nurgle locus making him even more powerful. Smaller thing morty has the grenade that could trade off with the flail and he has the reaping attack that the GUO sort of doesn't have until you realize the GUO has shrivel pox, nurgles rot, and stream of curroption that he can tach into against armies where either spell is more powerful which more often than not will out pace plague wind and curse of the leper. That said morty has better range on his spell.
So i think under that comparison i give the nod to the GUO, while he might be alittle less punch against hordes of stuff atleast you'll get to play with the thing for a turn or two before it dies unlike morty who dies turn one against most list if your opponent goes first. Interestingly morty has been in competive list and has placed well
Mortarion also has access to Blades of Putrefaction, Death to the False Emperor, and Veterans of the Long War. If he's within range of a Daemon Prince's bubble, he's generating an extra attack (and remember, these are those hideously powerful attacks from Silence) on to-hit rolls of 5+, and extra mortal wounds on to-wound rolls of 5+. He's super-duper killy and can easily delete a 30-model unit of GEQs a turn by himself.
If you got morty deleting 1 squad of 30 GeQ and then he dies which he will and again i do say most things do die in one or two turns for sure... that's really not enough... that doesn't even cover the price tag you spend on morty over a GUO... That's also assuming you make it into the combat, which you'd need a second caster to warp time you to actualy get thier on the first turn (which is pretty damn good)
Now i'm not saying morty is terrible or bad, but using morty as the foil via which we veiw the GUO if one can be good i'm argue so in the other. I'm not really trying to say the GUO is strickly better.
Brian888 wrote: That's why Miasma of Pestilence and Deathshroud Terminators are your friend. Always keep a few around to tank for Morty.
i agree with that thought... though then you add the cost of the death shroud terminators onto morty, and do the death shroud terminators start on the table with morty so he can get his first turn, or.... do the ydeep strike in so they can protect him after he's moved 12" up the table, or do you have to have btoh units because we are spend alot of investment on morty just getting him there, and not really multiplying his effectiveness.
They aren't really that expensive anymore at 35 points a pop.
That being said, I think the GUO's real strength is in his force-multiplying capabilities. Reverberating Summons is potentially amazing, especially combined with Fleshy Abundance.
Brian888 wrote: They aren't really that expensive anymore at 35 points a pop.
Whoa this are cheaper than i thought they'd be what are thier stat lines??
That being said, I think the GUO's real strength is in his force-multiplying capabilities. Reverberating Summons is potentially amazing, especially combined with Fleshy Abundance.
yeah i agree the bell is pretty is great, but it requires you to start him on the table, and he also really needs a whole army of nurgle to use it.
On top of that your opponent can counter this by just not core hounding your army and instead killing each unit to the man before moving on to the next unit. Plaguebears with miasma also encourage your opponent to do this as best they can. That being said it doesn't make the bell useless and does force your opponent to really make sure they kill everyone in the unit. I kind makes your army sorta like necrons.
I personally prefer the flail and sword and sword and just deep striking the guy. hes tough enough to either bring in more points than he is worth as just a distraction, and if ignored he can bring some devasting attacks with the amazing lore of nurgle and his llail/ bilesword combo allow him to take advantage of shrive pox and virualence. When making list i only consider tournament scene where your opponent can change and how you must deal with them can also change. So i like units who i can atleast semi convert between anti horde, elite, or tanks.
mmimzie wrote: Whoa this are cheaper than i thought they'd be what are thier stat lines??
3+ for WS and BS, S 5, T 5, 2 wounds, 3 attacks, LD 9, 2+/4++ saves and 5+ FNP. They're sloooooooow (4" movement and their advances are halved), but they can teleport in. Their Manreapers are pretty grisly at +3 S, -3 AP, D3 damage. Death Guard Characters (except Morty) who are near them get +1 attack.
The only thing to add to the list is skullreaver in Khorne DP as i cant do it on Battlescribe for some reason.
I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions on things to tweak or if this is viable. Also what tobdo with the remaining points. Finally, I am having trouble with deployment as i want to DS everything but i need to keep the required 50 % on the board so any advice would be appreaciated.
andysonic1 wrote: Can't have the Skullreaver on a CSM Daemon Prince.
I though that by using the strategem for extra relics i could give the relics to anyone who qualified. The only restriction i saw for skullreaver was the weapon it could replace.
andysonic1 wrote: Can't have the Skullreaver on a CSM Daemon Prince.
I though that by using the strategem for extra relics i could give the relics to anyone who qualified. The only restriction i saw for skullreaver was the weapon it could replace.
There's a lot of moving parts with that logic. I do not believe that you are correct. You could make an argument that CSM Codex Stratagems effect Death Guard Codex units, however Daemons and CSM are two completely different factions, so this is a brand new case they will need to FAQ one way or the other.
The only thing to add to the list is skullreaver in Khorne DP as i cant do it on Battlescribe for some reason.
I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions on things to tweak or if this is viable. Also what tobdo with the remaining points. Finally, I am having trouble with deployment as i want to DS everything but i need to keep the required 50 % on the board so any advice would be appreaciated.
you've gotten some good advice, I'd just like to say you would probably be better off with a skulltaker than a bloodmaster to hang out with your bloodletters.
Does anyone think the Blue Scribes are worth it now? All spells expect the treason of tzeentch has decent uses now, and from what i understand the power works even if you cast the same spell earlier in the same round with another caster?
ThePie wrote: Does anyone think the Blue Scribes are worth it now? All spells expect the treason of tzeentch has decent uses now, and from what i understand the power works even if you cast the same spell earlier in the same round with another caster?
I'm not certain if the Scribes let you duplicate a power; I'd have to check on that. However, the Scribes (especially in cooperation with a Burning Chariot) are a pretty hard counter to enemy psykers. -2 to cast, and you lose that power for the rest of the game if you fail? Yeaaaaaaaaah.
Has anyone looked at Mamon and Corbax? Corbax seems like he is in a bad place. S6, no re-rolls to wound, and can get quite a few attacks. Seems like a good way to go after elite infantry, but I also think that a nurgle talons DP will do the job better. Corbax is more resilient, but I think I would rather have speed and sub 10W character. -1 to enemy psyker is nice, but eh...
Mamon looks a little more appealing now that we can deep strike..,.buuuuut he is 9PL, so it will cost 2. with 5" move I think that is the only way to take him, and he doesn't give re-rolls of 1 to anyone but himself and Necrosius. He has an OK flamer, and some pretty unique weapons. His stomp is kinda crazy, chance at 3+D3 dmg seems excellent for character killing. Fist is S9, but only -1 and 1dmg, with a 50% chance to deal additional D6dmg.
Personally I feel they just don't bring as much synergy to the table as Codex units. They have nice models, are high toughness, but probably wont ever see a tournament table.
Oh yeah, and Uraka the Warfiend, the Khorne daemon prince. I ordered one planning on giving it wings for my axe DP, but this guy is pretty cool. While he doesn't give any synergy, he can become pretty awesome, and if you can just throw him at tactical marines, he will probably never die. Alike the two above, I don't think it's as good as a codex option, but this dude does look pretty fun. Potential to get to S10 is always cool!
A Rules Question, if you use Treason of Tzeentch on an enemy character and make him charge into an enemy unit, can that enemy choose to not hit that character in the fight phase or is he forced to?
Because i was thinking it might be a decent spell on the Lord of Change with his 2+ to cast, and then use both the reroll stratagem and reroll from gaze of fate to get it off more regularly to suicide enemy characters into blobs/big scary monsters.
As far as I know the player doesn't HAVE to have its models attack if they are in close combat, but I mean... why wouldn't they if they are already in there?
Azuza001 wrote: As far as I know the player doesn't HAVE to have its models attack if they are in close combat, but I mean... why wouldn't they if they are already in there?
Ah damm, so treason of tzeentch is completely worthless then, if they are not forced to hit the character.
Q: If any of your units are eligible to fight in the Fight phase, can you choose for them not to fight this turn? Also, if any of your units charged in the Charge phase, do they have to fight first in the Fight phase, or can you choose for them to wait until later in the phase?
A: All eligible units must fight in the Fight phase; they cannot ‘pass’ and wait for another phase. Additionally, a unit must fight when it is its time to do so; it cannot ‘hold’ in order to fight later in the phase. So if a unit charged in the preceding Charge phase, it must fight before any non-charging models in the Fight phase (barring any related abilities).Note that when a model fights, it must do all of its close combat attacks if it can do so – you cannot choose for it not to do so (though you can still choose which weapon it uses for each close combat attack).
I would need to check Treason of Tzeentchs wording though since it might not apply anyway.
Not necessarily, you can still attack his units with his own guy. Grabbing an HQ and pulling him out of position so that rerolls don't work, having him charge his own guys and really mess them up, heck if he has a plasma pistol on him make him overcharge just for the LOL's if it go's boom.
"Oh, you take plasma pistols on all of your Characters because why not? Let me show you..."
Heck, it would be hilarious to grab Murderfang or something really big and twist it, but the odds are not in your favor.
EDIT -
Anticitizen013 has it right, I was wrong, there ya go! It become more fun if they have to hit back. Maybe think of it as the guys in the unit trying to get their commander under control before he kills them all.
I just had to check the spell and yeah, it looks like the enemy would have to fight back because the "mind controlled" model is friendly (to the caster) which makes it enemy to the... uh... enemy, haha.
anticitizen013 wrote: I just had to check the spell and yeah, it looks like the enemy would have to fight back because the "mind controlled" model is friendly (to the caster) which makes it enemy to the... uh... enemy, haha.
Haha awesome, hadent really considered that spell before but now that it works like i hoped too it will be the funniest gak ever to use.
Cast treason of Tzeentch in a few games, never had it work once. Opponents have to swing back, but your opponent has to fail the leadership test which goes from unlikely to extremely unlikely if they remember they can just spend a CP on a roll that's probably 9 or less.
Azuza001 wrote: I am having trouble trying to figure out how or if it's worth running seekers of slaanesh. I play an undivided deamon army so no loci, but seekers just seem underwhelming to me. They are fast but don't have the toughness / strength / or armor to really look like they can do much vs say fiends of slaanesh. Does anyone have any experience with how to the run them right now? Even sticking a Herald on them doesn't seem all that effective for the points. This sucks cause I like the models any have 6 of them.
Yeah, especially with charge after Advance being opened up to Fiends, I’m struggling to see what I’ll do with my Seekers. The Codex as a whole has seen some warranted reductions, but I can’t see what they were thinking with this. Maybe for charging first at something with fearsome high damage Overwatch? Having a wide frontage for some multi-charge shenanigans? They’ve gone up to 6 Power - and were struggling to be viable at 5 - and are now competing in Slaanesh with ‘hahaha you can’t run away’ and in fast attack with cheaper Flesh Hounds - that were fairly viable at 5. Fiends also have the advantage, sadly not relevant to your undivided army, that they can join two Heralds and a DP in a Supreme Command, which is a pretty decent accompaniment to an undivided Battalion with Daemonettes - or a soup army with Possessed and dinobots.
But, hey, Loyalists got a hike on their Lieutenant, which peeved my friend who’s added two to her Space Wolves.
Azuza001 wrote: I am having trouble trying to figure out how or if it's worth running seekers of slaanesh. I play an undivided deamon army so no loci, but seekers just seem underwhelming to me. They are fast but don't have the toughness / strength / or armor to really look like they can do much vs say fiends of slaanesh. Does anyone have any experience with how to the run them right now? Even sticking a Herald on them doesn't seem all that effective for the points. This sucks cause I like the models any have 6 of them.
Yeah, especially with charge after Advance being opened up to Fiends, I’m struggling to see what I’ll do with my Seekers. The Codex as a whole has seen some warranted reductions, but I can’t see what they were thinking with this. Maybe for charging first at something with fearsome high damage Overwatch? Having a wide frontage for some multi-charge shenanigans? They’ve gone up to 6 Power - and were struggling to be viable at 5 - and are now competing in Slaanesh with ‘hahaha you can’t run away’ and in fast attack with cheaper Flesh Hounds - that were fairly viable at 5. Fiends also have the advantage, sadly not relevant to your undivided army, that they can join two Heralds and a DP in a Supreme Command, which is a pretty decent accompaniment to an undivided Battalion with Daemonettes - or a soup army with Possessed and dinobots.
But, hey, Loyalists got a hike on their Lieutenant, which peeved my friend who’s added two to her Space Wolves.
Fiends can also run solo so 3 single model fiend units and a Herald is all it takes to fill a vanguard.
I wrote a list. I had a Daemon army for Fantasy amd decided I might as well use them in 40k because they want nothing to do with AoS. Its also just an excuse to buy Mortarion because I'm a fool who loves fancy models.
Spoiler:
Super Heavy Auxilliary Mortarion
Battalion Daemon Prince Of Nurgle, Malefic Claws x2, Wings, Horn Kf Nurgles Rot
Spoilpox Scrivner, Corruption
30x Plaguebearers
4x Nurglings
4x Nurglings
Outrider Detachment Fluxmaster, Soulband
3x Screamers
3x Screamers
3x Screamers
Burning Chariot
Patrol Detachment Daemon Prince Of Khorne, Skullreaver, Wings
How do you guys feel about a supreme command detachment of khorne daemon princes being deepstriked in? Will the icon rerolls to charge stack with command rerolls, would the odds of landing a charge be worth it? I don't have bloodletters but do have daemon princes. I was thinking of making an alternate list primarily focused on tzeentch with a splash of khorne or nurgle.
My current list frontlines nurglings/plaguebearers w/ herald & bilepiper, magnus in auxiliary, and a deepstriking tzeentch bat including changeling, herald, 30pinks, prince.
I don't think three princes of Khorne are going to pull their weight. First off they won't screen one another due to the beta character rules. Second, they are Khorne Daemons so they aren't going to survive being shot at or counter-charged by other melee units unless you roll very well. If you want to drop in three princes, make them Nurgle or Tzeentch or Slaan. If you want to drop in one prince and 20-30 Bloodletters, make him Khorne.
icon re rolls? now charge re rolls come from korne locus, icon let you charge 3d6 if you spend 1 cp for stratagem, 3d6+1 give you average 97% chance to ds and charge. The real problem are cheap screening units and lot of veichles
Lol yeah. I am going to try seekers tomorrow and see what they do. Maybe they can be a distraction or I can get them up the board and around to some juicy devastators or something. I just look at them and then my nurgle Flys (bloat drones? Too many drones for nurgle) and think the Flys are more durable and effective.
If I could get a reroll on failed to wound on the seekers then they would be awesome, even better with the str 3 since it would give more chances to roll 6's, or if 6's auto wounded on to hit like the old rending rules from 4th but that was also kinda cheesy.
Nora wrote: Is there an erreta or something that puts the "DAEMON" from FACTION KEYWORDS to KEYWORDS for CSM simular to Death Guard?
What? No.. Only applicable units are oblitorators and the Lord of skulls . I don't believe there is a DGFAQ that does that either (they have Mamon and possessed with faction daemon)
Can anyone explain the sudden allure of Pox Riders? I mean, yes... they're durable, but they're extremely pricey for what they do, and they aren't incredibly receptive to Nurgle buffs as they're neither Keyword Plaguebearer, or Infantry.
Nora wrote: Is there an erreta or something that puts the "DAEMON" from FACTION KEYWORDS to KEYWORDS for CSM simular to Death Guard?
What? No.. Only applicable units are oblitorators and the Lord of skulls . I don't believe there is a DGFAQ that does that either (they have Mamon and possessed with faction daemon)
So is it legitimate to build CD Chaos Daemons Detachments with let say oblitorators?
If so can the same detachment get both DAEMONIC LOCI as well as LEGION TRAITS?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Can anyone explain the sudden allure of Pox Riders? I mean, yes... they're durable, but they're extremely pricey for what they do, and they aren't incredibly receptive to Nurgle buffs as they're neither Keyword Plaguebearer, or Infantry.
you sure? they can be targeted by any psy powers and stratagems and can get +1 str from poxbringer or some other characters buffs, guess you need read better the codex.
I thought they released a schedule where Codex FAQ were released a week after the codex, then there are two big FAQs biannually and finally CA is once a year?
I thought they released a schedule where Codex FAQ were released a week after the codex, then there are two big FAQs biannually and finally CA is once a year?
They only ever said FAQ's would come out "shortly after", they never said one or two weeks. They covered their ass well.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Can anyone explain the sudden allure of Pox Riders? I mean, yes... they're durable, but they're extremely pricey for what they do, and they aren't incredibly receptive to Nurgle buffs as they're neither Keyword Plaguebearer, or Infantry.
you sure? they can be targeted by any psy powers and stratagems and can get +1 str from poxbringer or some other characters buffs, guess you need read better the codex.
I'm looking at their entry in my FW Chaos Index right now.... no Plaguebearer keyword, and thus no +1S, no +2 movement from Scrivner (since they aren't infantry), no +1 to-hit, etc... Strategems sure... fine... spells sure, also valid, but they're still leaving half of the new Nurgle buffs off the table.
I mean, they seem good, but I don't know if they're "oh no, nerf these" good.
they were already "nerfed" in CA so no worries to be nerfed again, they are a great choice right now, instead drop letters bomb try drop pox riders bomb, lot of points, but no army can deal with 8-9 of them at 9" from you.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Can anyone explain the sudden allure of Pox Riders? I mean, yes... they're durable, but they're extremely pricey for what they do, and they aren't incredibly receptive to Nurgle buffs as they're neither Keyword Plaguebearer, or Infantry.
you sure? they can be targeted by any psy powers and stratagems and can get +1 str from poxbringer or some other characters buffs, guess you need read better the codex.
I'm looking at their entry in my FW Chaos Index right now.... no Plaguebearer keyword, and thus no +1S, no +2 movement from Scrivner (since they aren't infantry), no +1 to-hit, etc... Strategems sure... fine... spells sure, also valid, but they're still leaving half of the new Nurgle buffs off the table.
I mean, they seem good, but I don't know if they're "oh no, nerf these" good.
Poxwalker +1S affects all NURGLE DAEMONS. They do seem massively expensive for what they do.
Faced Raven Guard today, he was using some chapter ancient i think it was called (guy with banner) and some other guy so he had pretty much rerolls on all to hit and to wound rolls.
I got shot to hell and i couldnt deep strike close enough to him due to him having scout with infiltrate that screened.
Im not sure how to best deal with such an opponent.
ThePie wrote: Faced Raven Guard today, he was using some chapter ancient i think it was called (guy with banner) and some other guy so he had pretty much rerolls on all to hit and to wound rolls.
I got shot to hell and i couldnt deep strike close enough to him due to him having scout with infiltrate that screened.
Im not sure how to best deal with such an opponent.
Two waves of DS - one to remove the screen, the second to hit the meaty part of his army.
ThePie wrote: Faced Raven Guard today, he was using some chapter ancient i think it was called (guy with banner) and some other guy so he had pretty much rerolls on all to hit and to wound rolls.
I got shot to hell and i couldnt deep strike close enough to him due to him having scout with infiltrate that screened.
Im not sure how to best deal with such an opponent.
Mono khorne I think is abit meh I think it's strong, but it's kinda like deep strike and then kiplever thung, and then deep strike more stuff..
I think any chaos army would be well served with a few daemon princes they are killy and fast. When coupled with deep strikers and lots of preasure they are just really tough to actually get any shot onto the nurgle and tzneetch DPs being particularly hard to kill, while khorne ones can get really killy.
From there I think mixed god daemons is just too good to really go mono any god. Nurgle bring scouts to counter enemy scouts, tzeentch bring charge clearing shooting (can clear some charge and charge with blood letter in the same turn if you want), then khorne brings some great melee based pain.
ThePie wrote: Faced Raven Guard today, he was using some chapter ancient i think it was called (guy with banner) and some other guy so he had pretty much rerolls on all to hit and to wound rolls.
I got shot to hell and i couldnt deep strike close enough to him due to him having scout with infiltrate that screened.
Im not sure how to best deal with such an opponent.
Mono khorne I think is abit meh I think it's strong, but it's kinda like deep strike and then kiplever thung, and then deep strike more stuff..
I think any chaos army would be well served with a few daemon princes they are killy and fast. When coupled with deep strikers and lots of preasure they are just really tough to actually get any shot onto the nurgle and tzneetch DPs being particularly hard to kill, while khorne ones can get really killy.
From there I think mixed god daemons is just too good to really go mono any god. Nurgle bring scouts to counter enemy scouts, tzeentch bring charge clearing shooting (can clear some charge and charge with blood letter in the same turn if you want), then khorne brings some great melee based pain.
Slaannesh to me still doesn't really rate.
+1 to this, and it sucks because about 30% of my chaos force is slaanesh. Thankfully 50% is khorne and 20% is tzeench so I can deep strike pinks for clearing and bloodletters for the real assault, slaanesh is just the force that starts on the field. Good thing is its fast enough to catch up to the rest of the forgefiend and weak enough that the opponent would rather ignore them for better targets. Bad is they don't do much once they get there unless you roll a lot of 6's, which isn't a good strategy.
I miss the days that slaanesh really was a scary force to see across from you. But it's not all bad, a large squad with support from the masque and a Herald can be effective. Keepers of secrets are cheap and can hold their own against a lot. And . . . . That's all I got lol.
ThePie wrote: Faced Raven Guard today, he was using some chapter ancient i think it was called (guy with banner) and some other guy so he had pretty much rerolls on all to hit and to wound rolls.
I got shot to hell and i couldnt deep strike close enough to him due to him having scout with infiltrate that screened.
Im not sure how to best deal with such an opponent.
Mono khorne I think is abit meh I think it's strong, but it's kinda like deep strike and then kiplever thung, and then deep strike more stuff..
I think any chaos army would be well served with a few daemon princes they are killy and fast. When coupled with deep strikers and lots of preasure they are just really tough to actually get any shot onto the nurgle and tzneetch DPs being particularly hard to kill, while khorne ones can get really killy.
From there I think mixed god daemons is just too good to really go mono any god. Nurgle bring scouts to counter enemy scouts, tzeentch bring charge clearing shooting (can clear some charge and charge with blood letter in the same turn if you want), then khorne brings some great melee based pain.
Slaannesh to me still doesn't really rate.
+1 to this, and it sucks because about 30% of my chaos force is slaanesh. Thankfully 50% is khorne and 20% is tzeench so I can deep strike pinks for clearing and bloodletters for the real assault, slaanesh is just the force that starts on the field. Good thing is its fast enough to catch up to the rest of the forgefiend and weak enough that the opponent would rather ignore them for better targets. Bad is they don't do much once they get there unless you roll a lot of 6's, which isn't a good strategy.
I miss the days that slaanesh really was a scary force to see across from you. But it's not all bad, a large squad with support from the masque and a Herald can be effective. Keepers of secrets are cheap and can hold their own against a lot. And . . . . That's all I got lol.
I think slannesh does like one good thing, and that ransom combat. where you try to stay in combat with your units every time it's your opponents turn so those units can stay safe. They don't rely on charge bonuses like khorne and they are pretty quick. They also have a power that helps them end combats that are going on too long with the fight again thing. So that unit can then make another charge.
Where they have problems is they are fast enough to just get into melee turn 1 reliably. some deployments can make this pretty realistic, but for the most part i think the lesser daemons are maybe 2 or 3 inches short of reliable turn 1 charges from the starting line, and if your opponent plays way back your stuck waiting for turn two.
Fieinds are pretty great at this i think, but i think they lack just alittle bit of punch compared to the daemonettes (didn't super math hammer this just what it looks like from a distance), and they have to start on the table and get shot up if you don't go first. That said making it into combat fiends die faster than unarmed tac squads in melee.
WTF do you even do with a Nurgle Daemons army CP wise...
Or trait wise...
Or artifact wise...
Khorne and Slaanesh are simple - deepstrike troops and charge
Tzeentch has the most things I can see working.
Nurgle has Nurglings.
I want to make atleast a semi competitive list. I can see footslogging working with Bell GUO buffing himself so much that people wouldn't want to shoot him. But then what do you use CP for?
Deepstrike 6 beasts with snaily? And some, maybe, plaguebearers so snaily doesn't die?
Deepstrike a ton of plaguebearers with characters to buff them?
Deepstrike GUO?
All of this seems meh compared to 3D6 charge with Khorne or Pinks with Herald
rvd1ofakind wrote: WTF do you even do with a Nurgle Daemons army CP wise...
Or trait wise...
Or artifact wise...
Khorne and Slaanesh are simple - deepstrike troops and charge
Tzeentch has the most things I can see working.
Nurgle has Nurglings.
I want to make atleast a semi competitive list. I can see footslogging working with Bell GUO buffing himself so much that people wouldn't want to shoot him. But then what do you use CP for?
Deepstrike 6 beasts with snaily? And some, maybe, plaguebearers so snaily doesn't die?
Deepstrike a ton of plaguebearers with characters to buff them?
Deepstrike GUO?
All of this seems meh compared to 3D6 charge with Khorne or Pinks with Herald
I don't understand. Your problem is that Nurgle is to good to use CP on? Cuz thats what it looks like you're saying to me.
rvd1ofakind wrote: WTF do you even do with a Nurgle Daemons army CP wise...
Or trait wise...
Or artifact wise...
Khorne and Slaanesh are simple - deepstrike troops and charge
Tzeentch has the most things I can see working.
Nurgle has Nurglings.
I want to make atleast a semi competitive list. I can see footslogging working with Bell GUO buffing himself so much that people wouldn't want to shoot him. But then what do you use CP for?
Deepstrike 6 beasts with snaily? And some, maybe, plaguebearers so snaily doesn't die?
Deepstrike a ton of plaguebearers with characters to buff them?
Deepstrike GUO?
All of this seems meh compared to 3D6 charge with Khorne or Pinks with Herald
I don't understand. Your problem is that Nurgle is to good to use CP on? Cuz thats what it looks like you're saying to me.
To me it read more like Nurgle units are so mediocre that using CP on them is a waste.
I was under the impression that the role of Nurgle daemons was to be a pain in the ass to kill rather than anything else and they do a decent job of it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: WTF do you even do with a Nurgle Daemons army CP wise...
Or trait wise...
Or artifact wise...
Khorne and Slaanesh are simple - deepstrike troops and charge
Tzeentch has the most things I can see working.
Nurgle has Nurglings.
I want to make atleast a semi competitive list. I can see footslogging working with Bell GUO buffing himself so much that people wouldn't want to shoot him. But then what do you use CP for?
Deepstrike 6 beasts with snaily? And some, maybe, plaguebearers so snaily doesn't die?
Deepstrike a ton of plaguebearers with characters to buff them?
Deepstrike GUO?
All of this seems meh compared to 3D6 charge with Khorne or Pinks with Herald
I played a 1k tournament today and did well with a mono-Nurgle army. Out of my 3 games I lost at most 200 points worth of models while my opponents ended with only a unit or two left. I had superior board control and was able to capitalize on objectives as well.
Here is how I break it down:
Stack -1 hit buffs. This means casting Miasma of Pestilence, having your warlord with Plaguefly Hive, having plaguebearers in 20+ man squads. This typically reduces your opponents damage by at least 25%. Your goal is to win through attrition, so your survival is #1.
Play aggressively. This means deep striking in your plaguebearers close to the enemy or onto multiple objectives (or both!), using Nurglings to tie up enemy shooting, running fast units (plague drones, daemon princes) up the board and smash into the enemy. Basically threat saturation for your opponent. If they focus on one threat there is going to be another that will punish them. Ensure that your units are locking the enemy in combat, surround enemy models so they can't fall back.
The Nurgle Locus is surprisingly good especially when stacked with Virulent Blessing. Having Plague Drones cause 3 damage on a 5, and 5 damage on a 6 is massive, especially against vehicles where you are normally wounding on a 5+ or 6+.
Nurgle stratagems are terrible IMO. You are mostly looking at Denzens of the Warp. Daemonic Possession is situational but useful. Otherwise your BRB reroll stratagem is the next most used.
For relics the Horn of Nurgle's Rot can be quite useful. A Daemon Prince can potentially (with super lucky rolling) make 7 plaguebearers a turn, more reasonably 3. Excellent in bolstering your hoard when charging chaff though. Entropic Knell is also useful, but less so then the Horn. I wouldn't bother with Corruption.
I hope that helps guide you with your Nurgle. For reference my list I used is below. I played against Admech, Eldar, and Space Wolves:
Battalion Detachment
DP of Nurgle - Mal talons, Horn of Nurgle's Rot, Plaguefly Hive, Miasma of Pestilence
Poxbringer - Virulent Blessing
3 x Nurglings
6 x Nurglings
30 x Plaguebearers - Icon / Instrument
Pinks are better in every way. Most importantly - they trounce flamers in durability. Flamers suck.
well thats not entirely true flamers out dps horrors against ever target except GEQ where horrors are king. ON top fo that horrors fall off considerably once they lose 11 models, so much so it kinda shrinks the durability as your damage out put shrinks by 57.66% when yopu lose 11 models in the unit.
Pinks are better in every way. Most importantly - they trounce flamers in durability. Flamers suck.
It depends what youre using them for.
Flamers are far more self sufficient. Being S4 -1 base means they are more effective vs the most common enemies, dont need the various buffs so much, so you can run 6 flamers on their own instead of 20 horrors and a herald. Plus fly and autohits have their own selling points - your 30 man horror blob gets rather useless when stuck in combat yet enemies will be reluctant to charge flamers and you can leave combat whenever you want
Pinks are better in every way. Most importantly - they trounce flamers in durability. Flamers suck.
well thats not entirely true flamers out dps horrors against ever target except GEQ where horrors are king. ON top fo that horrors fall off considerably once they lose 11 models, so much so it kinda shrinks the durability as your damage out put shrinks by 57.66% when yopu lose 11 models in the unit.
Yes, but when you lose those 11 pinks, you'd almost lose your entire flamer unit instead... It's +1 wound and toughness for 21 more points. That's not a good deal. Pinks almost have double the durability.
And the current meta game isn't charging, it's shooting. I'd like to be wrong, as I have 9 flamers... But Pinks just seem to straight up outclass them most of the time. Yes, flamers CAN be more useful situationally, however when you're making a list, you want it to do well more of then than not. Which is why you pick the optimal choice - pinks.
I like em both, but one other thing to remember is there are lots of ways to get -1 to hit. I'll take an extreme example of Shadow Spectres which can be buffed to be -3 or 4 to hit... that's pretty outrageous. Also there are lots of things that want to be in your face and flamers can light them up at the full 12" while automatically hitting.
What I'm trying to get at is there are uses for both, and looking solely at the numbers isn't always an effective way of determining a units worth.
Pinks are better in every way. Most importantly - they trounce flamers in durability. Flamers suck.
It depends what youre using them for.
Flamers are far more self sufficient. Being S4 -1 base means they are more effective vs the most common enemies, dont need the various buffs so much, so you can run 6 flamers on their own instead of 20 horrors and a herald. Plus fly and autohits have their own selling points - your 30 man horror blob gets rather useless when stuck in combat yet enemies will be reluctant to charge flamers and you can leave combat whenever you want
I'm fairly sure the most common enemy is still guard and brimstones despite various nerfs both will still be seen in good numbers, and both are more vulnerable to ink horrors
rvd1ofakind wrote:Well maybe it's because I'm looking from the points of view of "Bloodletters handle anything flamers can, but better"
Pinks are better in every way. Most importantly - they trounce flamers in durability. Flamers suck.
well thats not entirely true flamers out dps horrors against ever target except GEQ where horrors are king. ON top fo that horrors fall off considerably once they lose 11 models, so much so it kinda shrinks the durability as your damage out put shrinks by 57.66% when yopu lose 11 models in the unit.
Yes, but when you lose those 11 pinks, you'd almost lose your entire flamer unit instead... It's +1 wound and toughness for 21 more points. That's not a good deal. Pinks almost have double the durability.
And the current meta game isn't charging, it's shooting. I'd like to be wrong, as I have 9 flamers... But Pinks just seem to straight up outclass them most of the time. Yes, flamers CAN be more useful situationally, however when you're making a list, you want it to do well more of then than not. Which is why you pick the optimal choice - pinks.
Sure they aren't durable but as everyone has says we are playing like 2 turn games and then struggling through the last turns with minimal models in most games for all armies. So the durability altitle bit isnt that big a deal. even more so if you get to deepstrike and shoot first. That said that's another note to pinks as they ahve more range.
Also in my list a while ago you said why not skulltaker and in that list with one squad of 30 blood letters i wonder why you thought skulltaker beats out a bloodmaster??
Well most of the -1 is outside 12'', right? So if you can place flamers, with their 12'' range, within range to shoot, you can place pinks as well, which shoot better.
I'll admit, I'm not too aware of all the -1 buffs out there, however flamers are working up a huge cliff - their subpar durability. Damage wise they can't be just "better situationally". They have to be better ALWAYS. Durability is more important than damage in 8th (obviously, you have to have both). There are a lot of units with great damage per point, but at the end of the day, if they die to a gentle gust of wind and don't see as much play.
anticitizen013 wrote: I like em both, but one other thing to remember is there are lots of ways to get -1 to hit. I'll take an extreme example of Shadow Spectres which can be buffed to be -3 or 4 to hit... that's pretty outrageous. Also there are lots of things that want to be in your face and flamers can light them up at the full 12" while automatically hitting.
What I'm trying to get at is there are uses for both, and looking solely at the numbers isn't always an effective way of determining a units worth.
I agreee i think in general are better though, but definitly there is space for flamers.
I use 3 squads of flamers almost all the time when I go tzeench, but I don't ds them. Their movement is good enough that it isn't an issue, and the squad small enough you can hide behind cover in case you didn't get first turn.
Their speed, range, auto hit, these make them incredibly useful for board control. You don't want to charge these guys, or let them get near you, but if you focus fire on them 4++ can be tough to get through and your not shooting at anything more valuable.
I mean if your staring at 9 flamers in groups of 3 and 30 bloodletters, all in range to do something, what are you going to shoot at? Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
For sure, and they are going to be better against different things too.
So points wise, 5 flamers is the same as 20 pink horrors. Attacks wise, 5D6 vs 60... which sounds pretty intense. That would be 15 to 20 average hits (flamers) vs 30 hits (pinks). If we are attacking something that's T3, 10 wounds for the flamers (on the low end) and 15 for the pinks. If it's a 4+ save base, then we have 6 or 7 wounds that get through for the flamers (since - 1AP) and 7 or 8 for the pinks. I used round numbers because math
So I did that really quick in my head which is definitely not the most reliable calculator, but it should give you an idea. This doesn't take I to account things like heralds, daemon prince's, spells or strategems. It also doesn't take I to account range, -1 or greater to hit, or any of the other myriad factors in a 3D battle space.
They also have a similar threat range, despite their actual footprint being significantly different (which is both good and bad).
Lastly I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, I honestly think they are pretty equal as long as they are used according to their strengths and the current situation. I personally love them both
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well maybe it's because I'm looking from the points of view of "Bloodletters handle anything flamers can, but better"
Yeah. Like dying. You know what my Flamers find hilarious? The idea of 5d6 auto hits wounding on 3s against 20-30 man Bloodletters, dropping them under 20, removing their squad buffs.
You're tunneling, as usual, too hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: I use 3 squads of flamers almost all the time when I go tzeench, but I don't ds them. Their movement is good enough that it isn't an issue, and the squad small enough you can hide behind cover in case you didn't get first turn.
Their speed, range, auto hit, these make them incredibly useful for board control. You don't want to charge these guys, or let them get near you, but if you focus fire on them 4++ can be tough to get through and your not shooting at anything more valuable.
I mean if your staring at 9 flamers in groups of 3 and 30 bloodletters, all in range to do something, what are you going to shoot at? Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
Exactly. The final note here is the important one. Daemons were and still are about target saturation. Do not allow your opponent to have a good decision. You force their hand, you trip them up, you control the game.
Well I wouldn't charge flamers with fn letters. Even considering that makes you "tunnel" more than me. (ah yes, I'll charge my T3 models into autohit S4 stuff when I can deepstrike them to select the optimal target. durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr) I'd shoot them with pinks.
Right now I see 3 essential units: Pinks, Letters and Nurglings. With support from: Khorne DP, Tzeentch herald. Sometimes Skulltaker and Tzeentch DP.
Does anybody see a good use of 30 plaguebearer in a multi god army?
All the talk is about tcheentz and Khorne, which in also have, and nurglings, but would also like to know if you guys think there is room for the PB as I just rebase de 30 of them
Had them in my tournament list. But just removed them to make the BPN(Bloodletters, Pinks, Nurglings. Totally should adopt this abbreviation D: ) core better.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well I wouldn't charge flamers with fn letters. Even considering that makes you "tunnel" more than me. (ah yes, I'll charge my T3 models into autohit S4 stuff when I can deepstrike them to select the optimal target. durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr) I'd shoot them with pinks.
Right now I see 3 essential units: Pinks, Letters and Nurglings. With support from: Khorne DP, Tzeentch herald. Sometimes Skulltaker and Tzeentch DP.
I didn't imply that's what you said. I made a separate point after stating bloodletters are better than Flamers at dying.
Tunneling is in regards to your statement of Bloodletters being better at everything.
I then went on to make a separate point of target saturation, literally to prove a point of removing an optimal choice.
I genuinely don't know what else to tell you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kaintxu wrote: Does anybody see a good use of 30 plaguebearer in a multi god army?
All the talk is about tcheentz and Khorne, which in also have, and nurglings, but would also like to know if you guys think there is room for the PB as I just rebase de 30 of them
I think Plaguebearers have their purpose, for sure. They're wonderful little tarpit that will frustrate low-mid table opponents. For most people that's all that will matter anyway.
Except flamers are less durable than even bloodletters. They have about the same durability per point against antihorde weapons, but flamers suffer real bad against D of 2 or D3. While letters just shrug it off. Also, letters charge 3D6, meaning you can tie up like 5 artilery pieces.
Comparing flamers and bloodletters against each other 1v1 is a complete waste of time because they will almost never meet on the battlefield like that. Bloodletters will always be in combat if they are on the field and they will never charge Flamers.
Have you had great success with flamers? Do you not think they're almost completelly outclassed by pinks?
Bloodletters are better than almost anything damage per point wise except 6+ saves or high invul saves. Add in their utility in tying stuff up with 3D6 charge and banner procs making them stay in combat by surrounding a model and you're gold.
Just speaking from personal experience here. Nothing came even close in beating my BPN combo in my RTT. Obviously, that can be chalked up as anecdotal evidence, but we'll see. And I'm not saying BPN are amazing. I merely consider it "pretty good". But as far as chaos daemon codex only - I don't really see anything much better at this point
I don't think they're outclassed by Pinks, no. I'm not obsessed with Pinks as an option but respect their viability.
I'm not about to argue the point further with you, particularly, but for any reasonable reader in the thread they can see the information already provided on this page that justifies the individual merits of each unit by other posters who were willing to do so.
There are more than a small handful of units. The game is not a flat table of "you go, I go". There is nuance. There are variables. Daemons retain more flexibility than most armies, and if you choose to shoehorn yourself than you have already accepted you need to have your hand held at this point.
No, I just look at the roster of units and see:
a bunch of garbage big dudes that just give away VPs overpriced garbage like chariots and riders
situational units like hounds, skull cannons, e flamers
amazing troops: letters, pinks, nurglings
supporters of amazing troops: dps, heralds, skulltaker
Anything not mentioned here is something I've yet to test properly.
Slaanesh just seems "khorne but worse with situational gimmicks that don't work on most meta armies"
The other 2 are the only ones where I see a mono list at least semi-working:
Nurgle I'll test soon.
Tzeentch, I'll test after Nurgle.
But as I look at those, I keep thinking "why not just BPN instead...". Hope I'm wrong as I want to use more of my 10k pts of deamons...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I don't understand the GUO bell hype. It's like Necrons but worse. You can either focus 1 unit at a time or just focus the GUO (the -1 to hit buffs help that ofc). Ofc, it can be great in CC, where you can't pick and choose targets that well.
rvd1ofakind wrote: No, I just look at the roster of units and see:
a bunch of garbage big dudes that just give away VPs overpriced garbage like chariots and riders
situational units like hounds, skull cannons, e flamers
amazing troops: letters, pinks, nurglings
supporters of amazing troops: dps, heralds, skulltaker
Anything not mentioned here is something I've yet to test properly.
Slaanesh just seems "khorne but worse with situational gimmicks that don't work on most meta armies"
The other 2 are the only ones where I see a mono list at least semi-working:
Nurgle I'll test soon.
Tzeentch, I'll test after Nurgle.
But as I look at those, I keep thinking "why not just BPN instead...". Hope I'm wrong as I want to use more of my 10k pts of deamons...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I don't understand the GUO bell hype. It's like Necrons but worse. You can either focus 1 unit at a time or just focus the GUO (the -1 to hit buffs help that ofc). Ofc, it can be great in CC, where you can't pick and choose targets that well.
As someone who has an extensive Necron army currently gathering dust I would disagree with your opinion on the Doomsday Bell. Yeh the Bell by itself is a weaker RP, but you are adding that on top of Disgustingly Resilient, along with all the other tricks Nurgle has for bringing back models. Thats merging aspects of 7th and 8th RP. Units of Pox Riders, Plague Drones, Myphitic Blight Haulers.. Heck Imagine obliterators next to a gnarlmaw with 0+ save getting models back on a 4+
good luck play with ds bloodletters against list full of cheap screens like nurglings and/or poxwalkersu will neven charge something valuable before get shoot out as hell, unless ur opponent is a lobotomized monkey.
Ecdain wrote: Thoughts on my list? So far it's 2-0 in pick up games and went 3-0 in a local tourney where none of my matches were even remotely close.
LoC w/ robes + ephereal from WL trait
Tzherald on disc
2 x 30 pinks
1 x 10 brimstones
1 x 6 flamers
2 x tzheralds w/ discs
3 x 3 nurglings
2 x herald of khorne
1 x 30 letters w/ icon+instrument
2 x 19 letters w/ instrument
1998/2000
All questions or criticism are welcome.
I'd remove all the disc I think they just don't do a lot for you. Even if you need them to geti nto range of a horror swaud you can just trail 1 or 2 pink horrors back to make up the difference, and it'll free you up like 60 pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: good luck play with ds bloodletters against list full of cheap screens like nurglings and/or poxwalkersu will neven charge something valuable before get shoot out as hell, unless ur opponent is a lobotomized monkey.
agree'd. I think one good blood letter deep strike is all of what you want. the problem is getting that khorne detachment and also getting CP.
Ecdain wrote: Thoughts on my list? So far it's 2-0 in pick up games and went 3-0 in a local tourney where none of my matches were even remotely close.
LoC w/ robes + ephereal from WL trait
Tzherald on disc
2 x 30 pinks
1 x 10 brimstones
1 x 6 flamers
2 x tzheralds w/ discs
3 x 3 nurglings
2 x herald of khorne
1 x 30 letters w/ icon+instrument
2 x 19 letters w/ instrument
1998/2000
All questions or criticism are welcome.
I'd remove all the disc I think they just don't do a lot for you. Even if you need them to geti nto range of a horror swaud you can just trail 1 or 2 pink horrors back to make up the difference, and it'll free you up like 60 pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: good luck play with ds bloodletters against list full of cheap screens like nurglings and/or poxwalkersu will neven charge something valuable before get shoot out as hell, unless ur opponent is a lobotomized monkey.
agree'd. I think one good blood letter deep strike is all of what you want. the problem is getting that khorne detachment and also getting CP.
Was a typo on heralds, supposed to be "2 x herald w/ staffs" and I agree on not needing discs. The one has it to roll with Flamers.
As for the deepstrike screen you will also notice I run nurglings to secure landing zones and have in fact fought 100+ poxwalkers which got totally wiped out by turn 4. The two extra bloodletter squads is where people mistake me, they come in turn 2 to deal with an altered board state, only the big bomb drops turn 1 with horrors. Turn 1 the goal is to clear all chaff units, turn two is where I start hitting the meat. Starting everything on the board is not only impractical but overall a bad idea when it comes to being impactful with your units, 1 unit does the job turn 1 fine, the other 2 are finisher squads.
Then I had 3 
Anyway, they are too expensive if you are just going to use them to charge into fodder. If you bring warp talons, you should bring a sorceror with warptime, then you can move them 12 inches closer, and then your charge will get them behind the bubble wrap to the units that you really want to hit. 
