Tyranids are probably the biggest counter to us. With 6+ deepstriking units and 9 biovores shooting bombs everywhere... If they go first, they cover the entire map and you can't really deepstrike. Even if you clear all that crap out, you still have biovores constantly putting more crap on the table. (And are safelly hiding behind LoS blocking terrain with dudes around preventing deepstrike)
rvd1ofakind wrote: Tyranids are probably the biggest counter to us. With 6+ deepstriking units and 9 biovores shooting bombs everywhere... If they go first, they cover the entire map and you can't really deepstrike. Even if you clear all that crap out, you still have biovores constantly putting more crap on the table. (And are safelly hiding behind LoS blocking terrain with dudes around preventing deepstrike)
I'd disagree and possit instead with imperial soup being a bigger counter.
the deep strikers aren't an issue because we have some very cheap units like brim stones and units like nurglings that have super scout that can counter this deep striking issue pretty aggressively. Thus, giving you the space you need to actualy do your deep striking thing. I think maybe if you are going mono khorne i could see this being a big issue, but against that you could just not deep strike and go for a counter charge. Saving your CP for other things.
Again though i think this is more a mono god issue and not a mixed daemons issue. I think mixed daemons are pretty tough and have a lot of durability and table control.
The only other army that can get the level of table control that daemons have would be imperial guard. Guard having access to space marine super scouts or built in weak and soft scouts in ratlings and scentials. While also having good deep striking units like scions.
To a lesser extent maybe eldar going first. They have a weak scout in the form of rangers, but they also have some super fast flying units that can really test any holes in a screen, and to spread out and take up all the table space in a single turn.
Best things nids have is double moving hive tyrants and advancing gaunts swarms, which can be counter with nurgle scouts and good deployment and only really work on one unit.
Well nids hard counter scouts by shooting them with biovores. So if you place a nurgling somewhere, then you can't deepstrike there as they'll place a mine next to them. So you can't really put nurglings next to their army or you won't be able to deepstrike there.
Space Marine Scout clearance has been raised. I’m honestly not sold on Horrors for this - if they’re in cover and have cloaks, that’s a 2+ save. Surely Bloodletters are the solution to this screen? What do the other gods have? Flamers, Daemonettes? They’re adequate, I suppose. What about Nurgle, out-screen them with Nurglings?
So as expected, Daemon stratagems cannot be used on non faction daemon units. Unexpectedly this is a FAQ, not an errata, which means it's inconsistent with existing guidance. I really hope that existing synergy doesn't change.
Also as expected non daemon codex units that happened to have faction daemon have lost it.
Except Mamon I think.
Captyn_Bob wrote: So as expected, Daemon stratagems cannot be used on non faction daemon units. Unexpectedly this is a FAQ, not an errata, which means it's inconsistent with existing guidance. I really hope that existing synergy doesn't change.
Also as expected non daemon codex units that happened to have faction daemon have lost it.
Except Mamon I think.
Where does it say non daemon codex units that happened to have Faction Daemon lost it?
Captyn_Bob wrote: So as expected, Daemon stratagems cannot be used on non faction daemon units. Unexpectedly this is a FAQ, not an errata, which means it's inconsistent with existing guidance. I really hope that existing synergy doesn't change.
Also as expected non daemon codex units that happened to have faction daemon have lost it.
Except Mamon I think.
It could change. That was a very interesting choice they made. It would apply to any none faction users of stratagems, but honestly there isn't much of that around that I can think of??
Well, what was actually super-nerfed other than Deepstriking Magnus/Morty?
Obliterators could Deepstrike already. Warp Talons could Deepstrike already.
Warp Surge? Thousand Sons could Weaver something for similar.
Other Stratagems? Most of them were best used by the OG Daemons Factions anyway.
And yet all the auras and locuses still affect anything with Keyword Daemon too. It's a loss, but not that harsh. Maybe unfair considering Imperial Soup, but we're not neutered yet.
I’m playing Daemon army of Khorne and mostly Tzeentch. Was planing on to buy into obliterates to use in a CSM detachment but buff them up whit a DP with daemonspark (reroll 1 to wound) and maybe for target of “flickering flames”.
So my question is, with the FAQ and overall. Can I do this? It’s a Daemon only lost “faction keyword”. What’s the big difference in faction and just keyword?
As a Slaanesh player I'm happy with the FAQ. I wouldn't be taking that I don't want any friends Morty/Magnus bull crap anyway and my Hellflayers and Seekers got their keywords they needed back.
I’m playing Daemon army of Khorne and mostly Tzeentch. Was planing on to buy into obliterates to use in a CSM detachment but buff them up whit a DP with daemonspark (reroll 1 to wound) and maybe for target of “flickering flames”.
So my question is, with the FAQ and overall. Can I do this? It’s a Daemon only lost “faction keyword”. What’s the big difference in faction and just keyword?
Sorry for noob questions.
I believe the loss of the "faction keyword" means that you would not be able to include Obliterators in your Khorne/Tzeentch Daemon detachment. You would have to include them in a CSM detachment. The presence of the "Daemon" keyword though does mean that it could benefit from any Chaos Daemons modifiers or auras that affect Daemons. So for instance, Khorne Obliterators should still be able to benefit for the Khorne:Locus of Rage since they have Mark of Khorne and also the Daemon keyword.
I’m playing Daemon army of Khorne and mostly Tzeentch. Was planing on to buy into obliterates to use in a CSM detachment but buff them up whit a DP with daemonspark (reroll 1 to wound) and maybe for target of “flickering flames”.
So my question is, with the FAQ and overall. Can I do this? It’s a Daemon only lost “faction keyword”. What’s the big difference in faction and just keyword?
Sorry for noob questions.
I believe the loss of the "faction keyword" means that you would not be able to include Obliterators in your Khorne/Tzeentch Daemon detachment. You would have to include them in a CSM detachment. The presence of the "Daemon" keyword though does mean that it could benefit from any Chaos Daemons modifiers or auras that affect Daemons. So for instance, Khorne Obliterators should still be able to benefit for the Khorne:Locus of Rage since they have Mark of Khorne and also the Daemon keyword.
The FAQ only states that just the stratagems have to target faction daemons, psychic powers, auras and that can still be used on anything with the daemon keyword whether or not its a faction keyword.
Everything else is playable, Epidemius and Nurgle oblits, loci affecting CSM and DG units. Only thing not viable is DS Primarchs, no big deal. I have play tested some nurgle daemons heavy horde army list with Epidemius and nurgle oblits and its totally awesome.
The trees are super good with oblits too. And they can be deep struck in the battlefield.
Starting to warm to the idea of a deep striking Bloodthirster or Skarbrand, or using a Khyribdis again. My 3x20 Bloodletters supported by Herald was a reliable Anvil but my Hammer still needs work.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: As a Slaanesh player I'm happy with the FAQ. I wouldn't be taking that I don't want any friends Morty/Magnus bull crap anyway and my Hellflayers and Seekers got their keywords they needed back.
I know we just have to take what we can get...but this is just so sad.
remember btw oblys, possesed lord of skulls, lost demons faction keyword, now they have only demons in keyword, so they cant be any longer included in demon detachment if you want keep locus and stratagems.
andysonic1 wrote: Starting to warm to the idea of a deep striking Bloodthirster or Skarbrand, or using a Khyribdis again. My 3x20 Bloodletters supported by Herald was a reliable Anvil but my Hammer still needs work.
might not be too terrible. I definitly thing a 2 turn strategy is where you wanna go with daemons. Thanks to deep strike for the most part you only have to survive a single turn with of damage. deep striking 2 great daemons means both need to be dealt with otherwise they are in combat doin nasty things, and they can come in after your first way of deep strike clears stuff out.
andysonic1 wrote: Starting to warm to the idea of a deep striking Bloodthirster or Skarbrand, or using a Khyribdis again. My 3x20 Bloodletters supported by Herald was a reliable Anvil but my Hammer still needs work.
might not be too terrible. I definitly thing a 2 turn strategy is where you wanna go with daemons. Thanks to deep strike for the most part you only have to survive a single turn with of damage. deep striking 2 great daemons means both need to be dealt with otherwise they are in combat doin nasty things, and they can come in after your first way of deep strike clears stuff out.
Yeah I dropped 1x20 in turn 1 and then 2x20 turn two, and it gummed up my opponent nicely for a while, however the rest of my army was having trouble getting in (partially my own poor deployment decisions made it difficult to maneuver 20 Berzerkers + Kharn around a Blood Slaughter's phat ass). The massive drop pod is only slightly more expensive than a Thirster so it's been on my mind. Also ITC allows you to deploy Heralds inside them, for extra HUEHUEHUE. One way or the other I believe multiple waves are the way to go.
I've played a few games with my Nurgle daemon list now and really like it so far and there are some really solid synergies between Epidmius, the Loci system and DG Fleshmower drones, of which I run 5.
The only downside is that it can be challenging to keep track of all the buffs lol (Epi.tally + Plague banner boost + Loci range + psychic power buff + character auras), but that's a luxury problem. Plaguebearers can be brutal!
Could I get some opinions on a mono-Tzeentch army?
What would you personally include in a 1,300pts list, artifacts, deepstrike CP's?
So far I've seen Flamers & Pinks are a must to deepstrike. Would you consider taking Magnus? Screamers are a tad better this codex, however Exalted Flamers are up in points and chariots do not seem to be worth it... Lord of Change is somewhat okay now? Any psychic powers that stand out for him?
I'm curious how you guys feel about deepstriking Plaguebearers.
My current list is something like
nurgle batallion 30x Plagues 9x nurglings, a herald, a sloppity bilepiper
tzeentch batallion 30x pinks, 2x 10 brims, changeling, herald, daemon prince, some mixture of flamers/exalted flamers
Magnus in auxilliary.
Initial plan was to footslog plaguebearers and deepstrike the tzeentch batallion HOWEVER, it is considerably less costly in CP if I were to deepstrike the nurgle bat, and footslog the pinks.
Another option I toyed with was dropping Magnus and running 1-2 more daemon princes of nurgle or tzeentch to deepstrike in or perhaps 30 more plaguebearers (30 more pinks aren't an option as I don't own 60) with whichever detatchment I chose.
Thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
spaceclown wrote: Could I get some opinions on a mono-Tzeentch army?
What would you personally include in a 1,300pts list, artifacts, deepstrike CP's?
So far I've seen Flamers & Pinks are a must to deepstrike. Would you consider taking Magnus? Screamers are a tad better this codex, however Exalted Flamers are up in points and chariots do not seem to be worth it... Lord of Change is somewhat okay now? Any psychic powers that stand out for him?
What kind of game is this? I haven't played since Chapter Approved/Codex but I'll throw in that even in 2k points where my opponent had a chance to premeditate on my list they still had trouble dealing with Magnus (Obviously this differs depending on your opponents general skill level and army makeup). I'm assuming this is still the same case.
With that in mind, If I were going to use Magnus in a Tzeentch list @ 1300pts it would be something like:
Magnus in auxilliary Tzeentch battallion w/ Changecaster, Daemon Prince w/ wings, 2x 5 flamer squads, 30 pinks, 2x 10 brims.
20 points left over for splitting some blues/brims to maintain your pink squad shooting. You would have to choose depending on your opponent what to deepstrike, you will have 6cp so you could send in changecaster, pinks, prince, and haev 1 CP for flickering flames. You could also choose to save some CP and only deepstrike the flamer squads. You could also drop the prince if you wanted to pick up something else like changeling or more pinks; the threat saturation is going to be really high for a 1300pt list because Magnus demands so much firepower to be stopped.
With how infrequently you are going to be using the tzeentch Icon I honestly think it is worth considering some nurglings.
Lou_Cypher wrote: Well, what was actually super-nerfed other than Deepstriking Magnus/Morty?
Obliterators could Deepstrike already. Warp Talons could Deepstrike already.
Warp Surge? Thousand Sons could Weaver something for similar.
Other Stratagems? Most of them were best used by the OG Daemons Factions anyway.
And yet all the auras and locuses still affect anything with Keyword Daemon too. It's a loss, but not that harsh. Maybe unfair considering Imperial Soup, but we're not neutered yet.
Loci of Wrath, Fecundity, and Conjuration don’t affect CSM Daemon units. Not so bad on the first, CSM have a lot of access to re-roll auras. The second is a minor annoyance - the DG Drones were the big beneficiaries there, but they’re already pretty tough. The third is a disappointing blow to anyone who was looking forwards to having a bunch of radical 90s dude sorcerers kickflipping their Discs of Tzeentch to do gnarly spells. Bogus :(
Trancefate wrote: I'm curious how you guys feel about deepstriking Plaguebearers.
My current list is something like
nurgle batallion 30x Plagues 9x nurglings, a herald, a sloppity bilepiper
tzeentch batallion 30x pinks, 2x 10 brims, changeling, herald, daemon prince, some mixture of flamers/exalted flamers
Magnus in auxilliary.
Initial plan was to footslog plaguebearers and deepstrike the tzeentch batallion HOWEVER, it is considerably less costly in CP if I were to deepstrike the nurgle bat, and footslog the pinks.
Another option I toyed with was dropping Magnus and running 1-2 more daemon princes of nurgle or tzeentch to deepstrike in or perhaps 30 more plaguebearers (30 more pinks aren't an option as I don't own 60) with whichever detatchment I chose.
Thoughts?
Worth pointing out x20 of any daemon troops is PL8 which allows you to use "Denizens of the Warp" for 1CP. Dropping 60 troops as 3 x20 is 3CP vs 2 x30 for 4CP. Also less costly to fill out a battalion detachment with 60 troops instead of 90.
Daemon Prince without wings comes in at PL8 as well.
I think Pink Horrors are the safest thing to use "Denizens of the Warp" on as you can just shoot and not have to worry about making the 9+/10+ charge roll like Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh does. Even at 20 you still get the extra shot for the size bonus. Put a herald next to 20 pinks and that is 60 S4 shots from 1 group of Pinks. Nothing to sneeze at.
Trancefate wrote: I'm curious how you guys feel about deepstriking Plaguebearers.
My current list is something like
nurgle batallion 30x Plagues 9x nurglings, a herald, a sloppity bilepiper
tzeentch batallion 30x pinks, 2x 10 brims, changeling, herald, daemon prince, some mixture of flamers/exalted flamers
Magnus in auxilliary.
Initial plan was to footslog plaguebearers and deepstrike the tzeentch batallion HOWEVER, it is considerably less costly in CP if I were to deepstrike the nurgle bat, and footslog the pinks.
Another option I toyed with was dropping Magnus and running 1-2 more daemon princes of nurgle or tzeentch to deepstrike in or perhaps 30 more plaguebearers (30 more pinks aren't an option as I don't own 60) with whichever detatchment I chose.
Thoughts?
Worth pointing out x20 of any daemon troops is PL8 which allows you to use "Denizens of the Warp" for 1CP. Dropping 60 troops as 3 x20 is 3CP vs 2 x30 for 4CP. Also less costly to fill out a battalion detachment with 60 troops instead of 90.
Daemon Prince without wings comes in at PL8 as well.
I think Pink Horrors are the safest thing to use "Denizens of the Warp" on as you can just shoot and not have to worry about making the 9+/10+ charge roll like Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh does. Even at 20 you still get the extra shot for the size bonus. Put a herald next to 20 pinks and that is 60 S4 shots from 1 group of Pinks. Nothing to sneeze at.
Good points, I guess I need to spend some more time thinking about that. I guess the question would be is one round of firing enough, am I okay with losing 1/3 of my shooting after a single wound to save CP? Definitely with plaguebearers i think I drop in 20 man squads, not sure about pinks yet. One thing that helps make my decision is the fact that I only own 35 pinks I suppose.
Also, how are they at killing MEQ, still laughably bad?
Good points, I guess I need to spend some more time thinking about that. I guess the question would be is one round of firing enough, am I okay with losing 1/3 of my shooting after a single wound to save CP? Definitely with plaguebearers i think I drop in 20 man squads, not sure about pinks yet. One thing that helps make my decision is the fact that I only own 35 pinks I suppose.
Also, how are they at killing MEQ, still laughably bad?
Yes it's worth one turn of good shooting. Odds are if you have 30 man squads it won't take much for your opponent to kill whst are effectively 7 or guards men as far as durability is concerned (more or less).
The horrors and flamers are pretty close for MEQ kills so they actually do quite well.
Good points, I guess I need to spend some more time thinking about that. I guess the question would be is one round of firing enough, am I okay with losing 1/3 of my shooting after a single wound to save CP? Definitely with plaguebearers i think I drop in 20 man squads, not sure about pinks yet. One thing that helps make my decision is the fact that I only own 35 pinks I suppose.
Also, how are they at killing MEQ, still laughably bad?
Yes it's worth one turn of good shooting. Odds are if you have 30 man squads it won't take much for your opponent to kill whst are effectively 7 or guards men as far as durability is concerned (more or less).
The horrors and flamers are pretty close for MEQ kills so they actually do quite well.
Ditto. I doubt those horrors 30 or 20, on your next turn will be above >=20 for that extra shot.
So as I am starting a Slaanesh army and this is the list I have come up with. I don't play in a hyper-competitive group and I try to keep my squads at Slaanesh's sacred number. I just thought I would see what people think of the list.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So as I am starting a Slaanesh army and this is the list I have come up with. I don't play in a hyper-competitive group and I try to keep my squads at Slaanesh's sacred number. I just thought I would see what people think of the list.
Seekers: Instrument of Chaos
Heartseeker: Piercing claws
Steed of Slaanesh: Lashing tongue
11x Seeker: 11x Piercing claws
11x Steed of Slaanesh: 11x Lashing tongue
Seekers: Instrument of Chaos
Heartseeker: Piercing claws
Steed of Slaanesh: Lashing tongue
11x Seeker: 11x Piercing claws
11x Steed of Slaanesh: 11x Lashing tongue
+ Heavy Support +
Exalted Seeker Chariot
3x Daemonette Charioteers: 3x Piercing claws
Exalted Alluress: Lashes of Torment
Steeds of Slaanesh: Lashing tongues
Thats a lot of models for just starting lol. Something I would suggest, maybe make the masque your warlord? Fatal caress is OK, but the murder dance adds d3 attacks and the masque can always retreat from combat and still charge in meaning unless she is surrounded your always getting d3 extra attacks, or 6-8 attacks. For 78 pts, how can you say no?
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So as I am starting a Slaanesh army and this is the list I have come up with. I don't play in a hyper-competitive group and I try to keep my squads at Slaanesh's sacred number. I just thought I would see what people think of the list.
Seekers: Instrument of Chaos
Heartseeker: Piercing claws
Steed of Slaanesh: Lashing tongue
11x Seeker: 11x Piercing claws
11x Steed of Slaanesh: 11x Lashing tongue
Seekers: Instrument of Chaos
Heartseeker: Piercing claws
Steed of Slaanesh: Lashing tongue
11x Seeker: 11x Piercing claws
11x Steed of Slaanesh: 11x Lashing tongue
+ Heavy Support +
Exalted Seeker Chariot
3x Daemonette Charioteers: 3x Piercing claws
Exalted Alluress: Lashes of Torment
Steeds of Slaanesh: Lashing tongues
I wouldn't give your Warlord Fatal Caress. As that warlord trait works better with double Malefic Talons + Mark of Excess. You will get better results with the Murderdance or Savage Hedonist if you want to use Soulstealer.
For your battalion, you need larger size daemonette unit. 12 size squads are easy to mow down with bolter fire or flamers. Even in combat 12 daemonettes aren't that scary. 48 total daemonettes doesn't warrant investing in 3 Heralds of Slaanesh and the Masque. I would just drop the Exalted Seeker Chariot and bump up the daemonette squads to 18 if you want to be divisable by 6.
Chariots are also very fragile for their point cost. If you do not deep strike the chariots there is a good chance they will never make it into combat. Your opponent will have anti-vehicle guns and the chariots are the only worthwhile targets.
Slaanesh daemons have little defense or survivability. You just need to toss bodies at your enemy and hope they can't shoot them all. Basing enemy units prevents them from shooting next round which buys you time to get most units in charge range.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So as I am starting a Slaanesh army and this is the list I have come up with. I don't play in a hyper-competitive group and I try to keep my squads at Slaanesh's sacred number. I just thought I would see what people think of the list.
Seekers: Instrument of Chaos
Heartseeker: Piercing claws
Steed of Slaanesh: Lashing tongue
11x Seeker: 11x Piercing claws
11x Steed of Slaanesh: 11x Lashing tongue
Seekers: Instrument of Chaos
Heartseeker: Piercing claws
Steed of Slaanesh: Lashing tongue
11x Seeker: 11x Piercing claws
11x Steed of Slaanesh: 11x Lashing tongue
+ Heavy Support +
Exalted Seeker Chariot
3x Daemonette Charioteers: 3x Piercing claws
Exalted Alluress: Lashes of Torment
Steeds of Slaanesh: Lashing tongues
Thats a lot of models for just starting lol. Something I would suggest, maybe make the masque your warlord? Fatal caress is OK, but the murder dance adds d3 attacks and the masque can always retreat from combat and still charge in meaning unless she is surrounded your always getting d3 extra attacks, or 6-8 attacks. For 78 pts, how can you say no?
Slaanesh Heralds are too fragile to be in combat. They are more useful just providing buffs to nearby Slaanesh daemons. Even at 6-8 attacks, the Masque is till S3 AP-2 D2. You can have a Daemon Prince with two talons for 8-10 attacks at S7 AP-2 D2.
Lou_Cypher wrote: Well, what was actually super-nerfed other than Deepstriking Magnus/Morty?
Obliterators could Deepstrike already. Warp Talons could Deepstrike already.
Warp Surge? Thousand Sons could Weaver something for similar.
Other Stratagems? Most of them were best used by the OG Daemons Factions anyway.
And yet all the auras and locuses still affect anything with Keyword Daemon too. It's a loss, but not that harsh. Maybe unfair considering Imperial Soup, but we're not neutered yet.
Loci of Wrath, Fecundity, and Conjuration don’t affect CSM Daemon units. Not so bad on the first, CSM have a lot of access to re-roll auras. The second is a minor annoyance - the DG Drones were the big beneficiaries there, but they’re already pretty tough. The third is a disappointing blow to anyone who was looking forwards to having a bunch of radical 90s dude sorcerers kickflipping their Discs of Tzeentch to do gnarly spells. Bogus :(
This is not true. Where does it come from that loci don’t affect CSM Daemons? It was not answered in the FAQ and as I recal it was not FAQed for Epidemius in the index. So Loci work with any daemon having the same keywords as the loci demands.
Good points, I guess I need to spend some more time thinking about that. I guess the question would be is one round of firing enough, am I okay with losing 1/3 of my shooting after a single wound to save CP? Definitely with plaguebearers i think I drop in 20 man squads, not sure about pinks yet. One thing that helps make my decision is the fact that I only own 35 pinks I suppose.
Also, how are they at killing MEQ, still laughably bad?
Yes it's worth one turn of good shooting. Odds are if you have 30 man squads it won't take much for your opponent to kill whst are effectively 7 or guards men as far as durability is concerned (more or less).
The horrors and flamers are pretty close for MEQ kills so they actually do quite well.
Ditto. I doubt those horrors 30 or 20, on your next turn will be above >=20 for that extra shot.
With splits reserved it could be a pain though making it a very undesirable target. Of course you're gonna have to be an donkey-cave while resolving saves one or two saves at a time. For 130 points extra your group will be able to sustain a minimum of 50 wounds (before saves) before going below 20.
Though you'll likely more shots off just going with 2 groups of 20 for nearly the same point and CP price. I guess splitting is still in a weird place :(
I wouldn't give your Warlord Fatal Caress. As that warlord trait works better with double Malefic Talons + Mark of Excess. You will get better results with the Murderdance or Savage Hedonist if you want to use Soulstealer.
For your battalion, you need larger size daemonette unit. 12 size squads are easy to mow down with bolter fire or flamers. Even in combat 12 daemonettes aren't that scary. 48 total daemonettes doesn't warrant investing in 3 Heralds of Slaanesh and the Masque. I would just drop the Exalted Seeker Chariot and bump up the daemonette squads to 18 if you want to be divisable by 6.
Chariots are also very fragile for their point cost. If you do not deep strike the chariots there is a good chance they will never make it into combat. Your opponent will have anti-vehicle guns and the chariots are the only worthwhile targets.
Slaanesh daemons have little defense or survivability. You just need to toss bodies at your enemy and hope they can't shoot them all. Basing enemy units prevents them from shooting next round which buys you time to get most units in charge range.
Good point about the Fatal Caress. Though I do just like the sound of the trait.. lol. At the moment 50 Daemonettes is all I will have so that's where my limit is . Otherwise I would probably have them in larger squads. I will work on it. I could do 2-3 much larger squads but I was reading Daemonettes do well in MSU and really I just expect them to take some shots and cover for the characters and block DSing on me. Again, a fair point about the amount of heralds I have though. I suppose my idea was just aura saturation for the +1 strength on everything that has the Slaanesh daemons keyword. So the hellflayers + DPs and everything, to assure they have the buff. It's why I haven't included Fiends or anything though, which I would love to deep strike in. I don't have the models :( and they're sold out ATM.
I expect to get shot up plenty and lose quite a bit haha. It will be fun to narrow a strategy down, I really like the lore/story/theme of the mono-Slaanesh forces. We tend to play on boards with plenty of terrain though so I will have the opportunity to hide my units while running at my opponents.
Thats a lot of models for just starting lol. Something I would suggest, maybe make the masque your warlord? Fatal caress is OK, but the murder dance adds d3 attacks and the masque can always retreat from combat and still charge in meaning unless she is surrounded your always getting d3 extra attacks, or 6-8 attacks. For 78 pts, how can you say no?
It's amazing what you get with the starter boxes! Since you get Exalted Chariots I actually have a really healthy number of available chariots. I got 4 starter boxes . Ebay FTW.
Lou_Cypher wrote: Well, what was actually super-nerfed other than Deepstriking Magnus/Morty?
Obliterators could Deepstrike already. Warp Talons could Deepstrike already.
Warp Surge? Thousand Sons could Weaver something for similar.
Other Stratagems? Most of them were best used by the OG Daemons Factions anyway.
And yet all the auras and locuses still affect anything with Keyword Daemon too. It's a loss, but not that harsh. Maybe unfair considering Imperial Soup, but we're not neutered yet.
Loci of Wrath, Fecundity, and Conjuration don’t affect CSM Daemon units. Not so bad on the first, CSM have a lot of access to re-roll auras. The second is a minor annoyance - the DG Drones were the big beneficiaries there, but they’re already pretty tough. The third is a disappointing blow to anyone who was looking forwards to having a bunch of radical 90s dude sorcerers kickflipping their Discs of Tzeentch to do gnarly spells. Bogus :(
This is not true. Where does it come from that loci don’t affect CSM Daemons? It was not answered in the FAQ and as I recal it was not FAQed for Epidemius in the index. So Loci work with any daemon having the same keywords as the loci demands.
These Loci are not the ones that are activated for the entire game by having a monolatrist CD detachment, which currently do affect any DAEMON of the right deity. These Loci are the ones that are activated for a brief window by activating Stratagems. The CD FAQ states ‘these Stratagems can only affect units with the DAEMON faction keyword’.
Good luck negotiating ‘the aura of re-rolling failed psychic tests is not an affect of the stratagem’. I’m not going to build any lists around it unless it’s against a very generous friend. It’s an odd inconsistency, but then I guess it makes sense that Discs don’t make their riders particularly better at harnessing the Warp. Not so much the other ones. But, given the continued lack of Legion Traits for the same units (CSM CAVALRY on Daemonic mounts), it’s probably going to remain a blind spot.
Lou_Cypher wrote: Well, what was actually super-nerfed other than Deepstriking Magnus/Morty?
Obliterators could Deepstrike already. Warp Talons could Deepstrike already.
Warp Surge? Thousand Sons could Weaver something for similar.
Other Stratagems? Most of them were best used by the OG Daemons Factions anyway.
And yet all the auras and locuses still affect anything with Keyword Daemon too. It's a loss, but not that harsh. Maybe unfair considering Imperial Soup, but we're not neutered yet.
Loci of Wrath, Fecundity, and Conjuration don’t affect CSM Daemon units. Not so bad on the first, CSM have a lot of access to re-roll auras. The second is a minor annoyance - the DG Drones were the big beneficiaries there, but they’re already pretty tough. The third is a disappointing blow to anyone who was looking forwards to having a bunch of radical 90s dude sorcerers kickflipping their Discs of Tzeentch to do gnarly spells. Bogus :(
I did not see that at all in the FAQ. CSM deamon characters don't radiate Loci of Wrath, Fecundity, and Conjuration but they are effected by the locus.
Auras are unaffected by this FAQ, so the Locus stratagems can't be cast on anything outside the Codex, but they should still effect anything with the correct keywords.
Whats the consensus on Bloodthirsters and Skarbrand right now? With the stratagem, they definitely look like they've got potential. Which one appears to be the least enticing? From what've I've seen, Skarbrand and the one with the Melta rules axe (Insensate Rage?) look to be the hard hitters.
Those are the only two I’d ever use, mostly just personal preference. And then, only along with/after tying things up with bloodletters. Re-roll charges doesn’t guarantee combat the same way a unit of bloodletters with a banner does, and any units behind the engaged fighters can still knock a thirster of rage down to a pathetic tier of stats (or kill him) before he does anything.
Skarbrand... man, if he wasn’t so expensive, I’d love to try him out. Buffing enemy attacks is unfortunate but fluffy as hell. “NAH, WEAKLINGS. NOBODY RUNS. EVERYONE FIGHTS.”
I am not a Khorne player but I think Skarbrand is a better pick from the standpoint if he can base some vehicles or a blob of troops, your opponent can't fall back. Any other Khrone units that can get into combat also can be shielded from shooting for your opponent's turn.
Skarbrand's rules have changed in the Codex: you can now fallback by rolling 3D6 under your leadership. So it is possible for things to fallback from him now. The fallback aura is also only three inches.
From how I see it: Skarbrand is the more offensive pickup and 2x20 Bloodletters units or more + him deep striking in on a flank would be terrifying. Bloodthirsters with Armor of Skorn + FnP Warlord Trait are the more defensive / supportive option that will most likely last longer. If you're going CSM + Daemons, I would go with the Bloodthirster. At least in my list I don't have multiple targetable monsters which would make the Bloodthirster a prime target. Mixed Daemons, I'd go with Skarbrand since you're most likely taking other big threats along with him that also can't be ignored.
I feel like skarbrand would actually be a better buff for daemonettes then bloodletters as daemonettes in 20+ get buffed to 4 attacks, masque makes enemy subtract 1 to hit, which can be stacked with spells. Hysterical frenzy means that a slaanesh unit can attack in the psychic phase with the same extra skarbrand attack, and slaanesh daemons have always strike first which somewhat mitigates buff the enemy gets.
operkoi wrote: I feel like skarbrand would actually be a better buff for daemonettes then bloodletters as daemonettes in 20+ get buffed to 4 attacks, masque makes enemy subtract 1 to hit, which can be stacked with spells. Hysterical frenzy means that a slaanesh unit can attack in the psychic phase with the same extra skarbrand attack, and slaanesh daemons have always strike first which somewhat mitigates buff the enemy gets.
Yeah that'll really show the enemy screen who's boss. I had the same stacking buffs idea with Skulltaker + Herald + Bloodletters, but at the end of the day your troop units are not tough enough to pump so many buffs into and expect a big enough return. I think throwing unbuffed units at the enemy lines until they crumble (which they will do almost instantly) will allow your bigger units access to the heart of the enemy.
operkoi wrote: I feel like skarbrand would actually be a better buff for daemonettes then bloodletters as daemonettes in 20+ get buffed to 4 attacks, masque makes enemy subtract 1 to hit, which can be stacked with spells. Hysterical frenzy means that a slaanesh unit can attack in the psychic phase with the same extra skarbrand attack, and slaanesh daemons have always strike first which somewhat mitigates buff the enemy gets.
Toss in a Slaanesh character for to use Locus of Grace stratagem. That is a lot of attacks.
Quick question. If i have a detachment of Khorne Daemons and a detachment of CSM can i only take relics from the faction that has my warlord in it? Also where in the rules is that if that is the case? Thank you.
Darksteve wrote: Quick question. If i have a detachment of Khorne Daemons and a detachment of CSM can i only take relics from the faction that has my warlord in it? Also where in the rules is that if that is the case? Thank you.
I asked this of Frontline Gaming: you can take one free relic from the detachment your warlord is in. HOWEVER, you can use the stratagem from the other detachment to give that other detachment 1 or 2 relics, spending CP to do so. SO in theory you can have 3 relics in your warlord detachment and 2 relics in your other detachment.
Loci are not faction specific like stratagems are. The mistake people are making in the counter point arguments is thinking DG are not CSM when they clearly are as they are faction Heretic Astartes.
The daemons in CSM are faction CHAOS DAEMON, and unless something weird goes down the characters in CHAOS DAEMON armies gain abilities that buff daemons of any kind due to their focused nature. (It says so right on page 124)
STRATAGEMS are specifically for battle forged detachments in keyword faction CHAOS DAEMONS. (It says so on page 126)
sfshilo wrote: Loci are not faction specific like stratagems are. The mistake people are making in the counter point arguments is thinking DG are not CSM when they clearly are as they are faction Heretic Astartes.
The daemons in CSM are faction CHAOS DAEMON, and unless something weird goes down the characters in CHAOS DAEMON armies gain abilities that buff daemons of any kind due to their focused nature. (It says so right on page 124)
STRATAGEMS are specifically for battle forged detachments in keyword faction CHAOS DAEMONS. (It says so on page 126)
page 126 actually says "If your army is battleforged and contains any chaos deamons detachments (excluding auxiliary support detachments), you have access to the stratagems shown here, meaning you can spend command points to activate them."
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, Should you always take Corruption (relic) on a Nurgle prince, or is a Hellforged Sword good enough with its damage 4 on 6s?
So for your so you have the option of running virulence bles which is a good take if you need to hunt tanks.
Of the base weapons I think against most targets the claws pretty much always win. That said curroption is slightly better against tanks. As such is honestly only ever run the claws and take a different relic for something else.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, Should you always take Corruption (relic) on a Nurgle prince, or is a Hellforged Sword good enough with its damage 4 on 6s?
So for your so you have the option of running virulence bles which is a good take if you need to hunt tanks.
Of the base weapons I think against most targets the claws pretty much always win. That said curroption is slightly better against tanks. As such is honestly only ever run the claws and take a different relic for something else.
Yeaa, I'm using the older GUO model as a second daemon prince, so that is why I'm stuck with the sword. The reroll to would seems great on Str 8, but I'm not sure about trading the 3 damage for d3.
With the demon codex out it seem like the book really encourages combos and thus bombs. I thought it would be helpful to share a few and get other players ideas.
I've tried both one wave 1x30 Bloodletter Bombs and two wave 3x20 Bloodletter Bomb supported by Herald. I'm still on the fence about which one is better because they were both very useful, I simply misplayed them during my games so I was unable to get a clear grasp of what they are truly capable of. I feel if you want to clear a screen, you need to throw 30-40 Bloodletters at it to ensure its destruction. It gets a little murkier from there because obviously using 350 points to clear 180 points is not gud. All I know is 30 Bloodletters killed three units of out of position Fire Warriors but 20 failed to clear 20 Hormigaunts (attacks were also split between that blob and a Carnifex, to be fair). Another unit of 20 wiped out 3 Warriors, and another 20 wiped another 3, then they got pounced on. That should have been my chance to charge with the rest of the army but I got gummed up by Hormigaunts.
All in all I think it just depends on what else you are bringing to the table to dictate how many Bloodletters you should bring.
Fiend block. I have had good results dropping 4 Fiends of Slaanesh in and charging an entire gunline. It can shut down a gunline very quickly like guard or tank spam. It has enough wounds to get in and if the charge does fail somehow you still have a big threat on their front line which causes the opponent to focus fire until they are dead.
I also use changecaster to get gaze of fate off for the reroll, then I have the ability to reroll one or both charge dice to make sure I get in.
buddha wrote: With the demon codex out it seem like the book really encourages combos and thus bombs. I thought it would be helpful to share a few and get other players ideas.
218 points. Despite being cheap it only costs 2 CP to deepstrike them and it puts out 60 bolter shots. Uses are focused on chaff clearing.
[...]
I've tested both of these together and they are great. What are other people finding effective?
I have no experience with Nurgle, so I will not respond to that.
If you drop in the warlord trait daemonspark as well, you'll wound on a 2+ against space marines.
I'm planning on trying this out as a static gun-line. A blob of 30 pinks, with a herald (I choose the chariot one with the endless robe), daemonspark and flickering fire. To be a threat to targets further away, I add some CSM predators (lascannons) with a CSM daemon prince (as it buffs CSM and Daemons). The prince makes my pinks even more dangerous and a couple of flamers or screamers can be used to claim objectives.
Anyone tried anything like this? Anyone have tips?
Hansisaf wrote: To be a threat to targets further away, I add some CSM predators (lascannons) with a CSM daemon prince (as it buffs CSM and Daemons).
Pred autocannons do more work than the Twin las, taking into consideration Killshot and the DP aura. The las does avg 4.78dmg, while the autocannon does 4.15 against T7Sv3+. Also consider the minimum and maximum damage each weapon can do (assume everything hits, wounds, and saves are failed). The las can do a minimum of 4dmg, a max of 14dmg, and an avg of 9dmg. The autocannon does a min of 8dmg, a max of 24dmg, and an avg of 16dmg. They're nearly equal statistically, but the mins and maxes of the autocannon far outclass the same categories on the las. We're playing a dice game, so trust your luck and hope to go big!
It's cheaper, and it has more shots so it's able to do work against both big things and units.
Huh, that mathhammer site just helped me realize Skullreaver and A'rgrath on a Daemon Prince have pretty much the same chance to do the same amount of wounds on a tank: 60%~ to deal 12 wounds. The Axe simply has a much, muuuch lower min and higher max compared to the sword. Well I'm not playing Chaos for nothing I guess.
Hansisaf wrote: To be a threat to targets further away, I add some CSM predators (lascannons) with a CSM daemon prince (as it buffs CSM and Daemons).
Pred autocannons do more work than the Twin las, taking into consideration Killshot and the DP aura. The las does avg 4.78dmg, while the autocannon does 4.15 against T7Sv3+. Also consider the minimum and maximum damage each weapon can do (assume everything hits, wounds, and saves are failed). The las can do a minimum of 4dmg, a max of 14dmg, and an avg of 9dmg. The autocannon does a min of 8dmg, a max of 24dmg, and an avg of 16dmg. They're nearly equal statistically, but the mins and maxes of the autocannon far outclass the same categories on the las. We're playing a dice game, so trust your luck and hope to go big!
It's cheaper, and it has more shots so it's able to do work against both big things and units.
buddha wrote: With the demon codex out it seem like the book really encourages combos and thus bombs. I thought it would be helpful to share a few and get other players ideas.
buddha wrote: With the demon codex out it seem like the book really encourages combos and thus bombs. I thought it would be helpful to share a few and get other players ideas.
218 points. Despite being cheap it only costs 2 CP to deepstrike them and it puts out 60 bolter shots. Uses are focused on chaff clearing.
Plague block:
30 plaguebearers: full command
Poxbringer
Scrivener
380 points. Can be deepstruck or just walked. These guys move fast (for nurgle) and hit like a brick.
I've tested both of these together and they are great. What are other people finding effective?
Sounds pretty awesome. Do you do 2 waves, or drop both the Tzeentch and Nurgle units at the same time?
I've run them both ways and I like the wave method better. The plague block is a bit too CP heavy since it needs all the support characters to deepstrike. I should also note I'm dropping units like obliterators, flamers, etc with the horrors.
andysonic1 wrote: I've tried both one wave 1x30 Bloodletter Bombs and two wave 3x20 Bloodletter Bomb supported by Herald. I'm still on the fence about which one is better because they were both very useful, I simply misplayed them during my games so I was unable to get a clear grasp of what they are truly capable of. I feel if you want to clear a screen, you need to throw 30-40 Bloodletters at it to ensure its destruction. It gets a little murkier from there because obviously using 350 points to clear 180 points is not gud. All I know is 30 Bloodletters killed three units of out of position Fire Warriors but 20 failed to clear 20 Hormigaunts (attacks were also split between that blob and a Carnifex, to be fair). Another unit of 20 wiped out 3 Warriors, and another 20 wiped another 3, then they got pounced on. That should have been my chance to charge with the rest of the army but I got gummed up by Hormigaunts.
All in all I think it just depends on what else you are bringing to the table to dictate how many Bloodletters you should bring.
I've been bringing 1 x 30 letters with 2 x 30 pinks turn one(one pink starts on the board) and 2 x 19 letters(to prevent itc secondary of 2 cp for.20 model unit) turn 2 to deal with adjusted board state
andysonic1 wrote: I've tried both one wave 1x30 Bloodletter Bombs and two wave 3x20 Bloodletter Bomb supported by Herald. I'm still on the fence about which one is better because they were both very useful, I simply misplayed them during my games so I was unable to get a clear grasp of what they are truly capable of. I feel if you want to clear a screen, you need to throw 30-40 Bloodletters at it to ensure its destruction. It gets a little murkier from there because obviously using 350 points to clear 180 points is not gud. All I know is 30 Bloodletters killed three units of out of position Fire Warriors but 20 failed to clear 20 Hormigaunts (attacks were also split between that blob and a Carnifex, to be fair). Another unit of 20 wiped out 3 Warriors, and another 20 wiped another 3, then they got pounced on. That should have been my chance to charge with the rest of the army but I got gummed up by Hormigaunts.
All in all I think it just depends on what else you are bringing to the table to dictate how many Bloodletters you should bring.
I've been bringing 1 x 30 letters with 2 x 30 pinks turn one(one pink starts on the board) and 2 x 19 letters(to prevent itc secondary of 2 cp for.20 model unit) turn 2 to deal with adjusted board state
andysonic1 wrote: I've tried both one wave 1x30 Bloodletter Bombs and two wave 3x20 Bloodletter Bomb supported by Herald. I'm still on the fence about which one is better because they were both very useful, I simply misplayed them during my games so I was unable to get a clear grasp of what they are truly capable of. I feel if you want to clear a screen, you need to throw 30-40 Bloodletters at it to ensure its destruction. It gets a little murkier from there because obviously using 350 points to clear 180 points is not gud. All I know is 30 Bloodletters killed three units of out of position Fire Warriors but 20 failed to clear 20 Hormigaunts (attacks were also split between that blob and a Carnifex, to be fair). Another unit of 20 wiped out 3 Warriors, and another 20 wiped another 3, then they got pounced on. That should have been my chance to charge with the rest of the army but I got gummed up by Hormigaunts.
All in all I think it just depends on what else you are bringing to the table to dictate how many Bloodletters you should bring.
I've been bringing 1 x 30 letters with 2 x 30 pinks turn one(one pink starts on the board) and 2 x 19 letters(to prevent itc secondary of 2 cp for.20 model unit) turn 2 to deal with adjusted board state
Itc already changed the cp cost?
Phone auto corrected VP sorry, the secondary objective where you get 1 VP for.killing a unit of 10+, 2 VP for killing a unit of 20+. So taking 19 makes them still only worth 1 vp
I have no experience with Nurgle, so I will not respond to that.
If you drop in the warlord trait daemonspark as well, you'll wound on a 2+ against space marines.
I'm planning on trying this out as a static gun-line. A blob of 30 pinks, with a herald (I choose the chariot one with the endless robe), daemonspark and flickering fire. To be a threat to targets further away, I add some CSM predators (lascannons) with a CSM daemon prince (as it buffs CSM and Daemons). The prince makes my pinks even more dangerous and a couple of flamers or screamers can be used to claim objectives.
Anyone tried anything like this? Anyone have tips?
This list sounds like a lot of fun tbh. I'm new to Daemons and the hobby in general so sorry if this is a dumb question, but how do you keep the horrors safe without some sort of screen? Or is it that people are too occupied dealing with the daemon prince and predators to focus on them?
Also would you be able to post this army in the list format? I would really appreciate it.
I'm looking for an aggressive Nurgle list: must have epidemius DP drones gou obl nurglings and gnarlmaw.
I'm in doubt about how invest the test of the point.. mortarion or more body
Paikkio wrote: I'm looking for an aggressive Nurgle list: must have epidemius DP drones gou obl nurglings and gnarlmaw.
I'm in doubt about how invest the test of the point.. mortarion or more body
I'd say take more bodies over Mortarion. He can't deep-strike in with the Daemon stratagem, so he'll be foot-slogging it up the board in the face of all of your opponent's artillery, and he ain't THAT tough (especially if you don't have the points to bring his Deathshroud bodyguard with him).
buddha wrote: With the demon codex out it seem like the book really encourages combos and thus bombs. I thought it would be helpful to share a few and get other players ideas.
218 points. Despite being cheap it only costs 2 CP to deepstrike them and it puts out 60 bolter shots. Uses are focused on chaff clearing.
[...]
I've tested both of these together and they are great. What are other people finding effective?
I have no experience with Nurgle, so I will not respond to that.
If you drop in the warlord trait daemonspark as well, you'll wound on a 2+ against space marines.
I'm planning on trying this out as a static gun-line. A blob of 30 pinks, with a herald (I choose the chariot one with the endless robe), daemonspark and flickering fire. To be a threat to targets further away, I add some CSM predators (lascannons) with a CSM daemon prince (as it buffs CSM and Daemons). The prince makes my pinks even more dangerous and a couple of flamers or screamers can be used to claim objectives.
Anyone tried anything like this? Anyone have tips?
Don't forget to keep a Daemon Prince nearby for the rerolls and to help out in case melee units get too close to the Horrors. If you're using the herald primarily to buff the Horrors, I'd consider ditching the chariot (so the herald can't be targeted if it stays behind the Horror line) and the Robe (if the herald can't easily be targeted, it won't need the Robe). If you give the herald Soul Bane instead, it can help out the Daemon Prince in defending your gun line with what amounts to potentially 3 mortal wounds coming from the herald in melee (the herald isn't very accurate in melee, but the Daemon Prince helps with that a little).
Paikkio wrote: I'm looking for an aggressive Nurgle list: must have epidemius DP drones gou obl nurglings and gnarlmaw.
I'm in doubt about how invest the test of the point.. mortarion or more body
You’re going NURGLE soup, so why not some CSM Outriders? Blight-Haulers, Bloat-Drones, led by a Daemon Prince Warptiming a bunch of Warp Talons to jump over and entangle units who’d have horrific overwatch. Hardly any LEGION tactics benefit these units anyway, so you may as well enter the spirit of a Green Crusade. Drop a Gnarlmaw near the Warp Talons next turn and they can have a go at assassinating an important support character.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *thinks* ...OKAY, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT GNARLMAWS AND WARP TALONS. MAJOR SHENANIGANS SUSPECTED
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Decimators are an excellent Epidemius booster. A literal bucket of mortal wounds with medium range and BS2+ is a fine way to finish off a nearly dead unit
Bloat drones are My fav unit, already tried 3 near drones and DP but i think obli can make more damage and a mettere trigger for epidemius. Falling from the Sky with a Bell guo able to revive them.
Personally i dont like any tipe of dread-thing. Talons can be a cool deal. But i dont have point.
With the correct alignment of the Planet (or not too much)
Nurglings take obj, gou obli down kill (i Hope) 2 units drone Advance and maybe charge with double damage thanks to the tree and the Psy. Turn 1, 3 soul for the tallyman
It took me awhile, but I've seen the light with respect to Plaguebearers. It's dead-easy to protect them with a -2 penalty to hit them, they've got T4 and 5+ FNP (plus a 4++ if you use Warp Surge), and with the right mix of support from Scriveners and heralds and judicious use of various Loci, stratagems, and spells, they can pump out a truly obscene number of wounds per model (if my math is correct, under the right circumstances a Plaguebearer that rolls a 6 to wound can do 5 wounds). That's even before getting into Epidemius' Tally ridiculousness.
True, their weapons don't have any rend and they can't take advantage of Blades of Putrefaction to do mortal wounds, but still...ouch.
Yea, Nurgle is doing very well. A Prince with a hell forged sword, the +1 to wound trait, and the +1 wound power is getting 4 damage on on a 4+ to wound, and 7 damage on a 5+ (if I understand correctly)
Am I losing my marbles or is a Blood Throne pretty good? Only 5 points more than the JuggerHerald with a way better stateline. The six inch movement doesn't matter anymore since it can deep strike in. The extra attacks plus King of Blades plus the extra Helblade attacks plus "Hammer of Wrath" is really starting to make me curious about this unit. I was giving it gak because they took totem away, but you don't really need to with the large base the thing is on. I'll take one with my next 30 man Bloodletter unit and see what it can do. You're basically deep striking a mini-tank right in front of your opponent, one they can't shoot at until the Bloodletters are gone.
andysonic1 wrote: Am I losing my marbles or is a Blood Throne pretty good? Only 5 points more than the JuggerHerald with a way better stateline. The six inch movement doesn't matter anymore since it can deep strike in. The extra attacks plus King of Blades plus the extra Helblade attacks plus "Hammer of Wrath" is really starting to make me curious about this unit. I was giving it gak because they took totem away, but you don't really need to with the large base the thing is on. I'll take one with my next 30 man Bloodletter unit and see what it can do. You're basically deep striking a mini-tank right in front of your opponent, one they can't shoot at until the Bloodletters are gone.
Eh the throne has to wait a turn or try to make a 9" charge. Which is kinda meh for something you are also spending cp just to get it halfway up the table in the first place.
andysonic1 wrote: Am I losing my marbles or is a Blood Throne pretty good? Only 5 points more than the JuggerHerald with a way better stateline. The six inch movement doesn't matter anymore since it can deep strike in. The extra attacks plus King of Blades plus the extra Helblade attacks plus "Hammer of Wrath" is really starting to make me curious about this unit. I was giving it gak because they took totem away, but you don't really need to with the large base the thing is on. I'll take one with my next 30 man Bloodletter unit and see what it can do. You're basically deep striking a mini-tank right in front of your opponent, one they can't shoot at until the Bloodletters are gone.
Eh the throne has to wait a turn or try to make a 9" charge. Which is kinda meh for something you are also spending cp just to get it halfway up the table in the first place.
You spend 1 CP to put something big and scary on your opponent's front door, along with your Bloodletter bomb. +3W, +2A, +3T, +2 little Hellblade attacks for 49 more points. You're basically paying to shove two Heralds together.
Plus you don't NEED to make the initial charge. Chance are your opponent won't be able to get to you at all and you stay within aura range, so on your next turn you roll up and assault in.
I could kinda agree but blood letter do sonm7ch more damage. Any points I'd have to spare on the throne. If sorta just want more bloodletters instead?
Oh also while before you said angroth is close. It still does less against all target. Also that math hammer calc doesn't account for the d3 mortal wounds of 6s .
I main WECSM, and I've been running a small khorne daemons patrol detatchment. I will say this much, for the cost 20 bloodletters + bloodmaster with the crown has been doing so much work for me. From a points efficiency and CP perspective, I am simply amazed at how efficient this unit combo is. 2CP and a little over 200 points has cleared multiple wolfen squads, razorbacks, nid swarms, death company, necron immortal blobs. Might just be my dice being hot, but I'm seriously considering bumping the letters up to 30.
Will it be worth the 2nd CP? Should I get a few more units for another CP to make up for this?
I was thinking to get a few skull cannons to do a spearhead, use them as artillery to soften up big targets for the zerks while the bloodletters play distraction on his flank. 100 points for that cannon seems like a steal to me, and could be a good replacement for the AC havocs I've been using for my "meat tenderizers".
- 3x skullcannons vs 2x 4 AC havoc squads. My main concern is the swing in shot potential.
- 3d6 s8/d3 dmg vs 16 s7/2dmg
- Cannon needs to die for it to drop in firing utility, where as havocs drop fast once the sacrificial champion dies.
- 21 REQ wounds (Can we make this a thing? Rhino Equivilant T7 3+) VS 10 MEQ. Cannons win by a landslide here
- Cannon ignores cover. Matters to me because sniper scouts/grots/rangers are super common in my area, usually sitting atop a tower around an objective so firing ap-2 at a 2+ save with cover, or a 5+without is huge. And yes, I would fire a skullcannon at grots. No kill like overkill.
- Each havoc squad starts losing damage output after the 2nd failed save. Cannon needs to fail 7 armor/invuln, but then I lose a full 1/3 of the damage output of the fire base.
Am I over thinking this? Should I just nut up and get a couple skullcannons and run them, and let the dice gods decide??
Last question. Is skarbrand worth the points? He looks like he hits like a truck, but I tend to shy away from big nasties in general. Most big nasties like that just get erased in a turn from my experience. DS stratagem might help that, but I fell like he'd just be a fire magnet for all the lascannons and krak missiles hiding behind every brick.
mmimzie wrote: I could kinda agree but blood letter do sonm7ch more damage. Any points I'd have to spare on the throne. If sorta just want more bloodletters instead?
Blood Throne with A'rgath, charging a unit of MEQ: 9.305 total damage, 5 dead models. This does not account for the "Hammer of Wrath".
Blood Throne with Blade of Blood, charging a unit of MEQ: 6.389 total damage, 3 dead models. This does not account for the "Hammer of Wrath".
14 Bloodletters (equivalent points to Blood Throne) (no nearby Herald), charging a unit of MEQ (best case they can all attack): 13.481 total damage, 10 dead models.
Pretty cut and dry right? A'rgath does more damage due to making your Herald S8 on the charge, which is pretty crazy. However, more Bloodletters = even more damage. But let's look a little deeper. These units needed to suffer overwatch if they charged, right?
Spoiler:
5 MEQ shooting Bolters at charging Blood Throne: 0.37 total damage, 0 dead models.
5 MEQ shooting Bolters at 14 charging Bloodletters: 0.741 total damage, 0 dead models.
God damn Bolters suck. This at least highlights that you'e losing 50% damage for 50% durability. At least that's something. I suppose an even more realistic approach would be to show GEQ since that'll be what you're slamming into most often, so let's see it!
Spoiler:
Blood Throne with A'rgath, charging a unit of GEQ: 8.333 total damage, 4 dead models. This does not account for the "Hammer of Wrath".
Blood Throne with Blade of Blood, charging a unit of GEQ: 9.167 total damage, 4 dead models. This does not account for the "Hammer of Wrath".
14 Bloodletters (equivalent points to Blood Throne) (no nearby Herald), charging a unit of GEQ (best case they can all attack): 15.556 total damage, 12 dead models.
14 Bloodletters (equivalent points to Blood Throne) (with nearby Herald), charging a unit of GEQ (best case they can all attack): 18.667 total damage, 15 dead models.
Yeah OK from a pure damage perspective, more Bloodletters = more damage until you start attack higher toughness things where the higher strength of the Herald can come into play. So the moral of this lesson is-
tosses Blood Throne out window
What was that about a Patrol detachment with 20 Bloodletters and a Bloodmaster again? I think I'll be doing that, or the FA detachment with Flesh Hounds since I have so many left over from KDK days. Maybe I'll kitbash some Skullcannons since I have no ranged at the moment.
Paikkio wrote: I'm looking for an aggressive Nurgle list: must have epidemius DP drones gou obl nurglings and gnarlmaw.
I'm in doubt about how invest the test of the point.. mortarion or more body
2000 points nurgle Hop Hop
Chaos Daemon Outrider:
Epidemius
2x units of five furies (nurgle)
1x unit of nine pox riders with banner and instrument
Chaos Daemon Outrider:
Prince with corruption walking (nurgle)
2x units of five furies (nurgle)
1x unit of three plague drones
1x unit of giant chaos spawn (nurgle)
Chaos Marines Vanguard:
1x sorc on palaquin with death hex and warptime (nurgle)
3x units of five possessed with despair banner (nurgle)
1x unit of three oblits (nurgle)
The idea here being you have an entire army of extremely fast, extremely tough, and a good combo with the pox riders and daemon prince throwing out a -2 to hit them. Everything is at least keyword daemon nurgle, the CSM stuff is not faction daemon so no strats there. (Loci work though)
Pretty much everything but the two fat guys riding paliquins moves 7 inches or more. (And you have oblits Deep striking as well as the pox rider bomb on turn one if you want.)
StarHunter25 wrote: I main WECSM, and I've been running a small khorne daemons patrol detatchment. I will say this much, for the cost 20 bloodletters + bloodmaster with the crown has been doing so much work for me. From a points efficiency and CP perspective, I am simply amazed at how efficient this unit combo is. 2CP and a little over 200 points has cleared multiple wolfen squads, razorbacks, nid swarms, death company, necron immortal blobs. Might just be my dice being hot, but I'm seriously considering bumping the letters up to 30.
If your Herald is not the Warlord, you should be paying 1CP for that Crown. You should also always be paying the extra 1CP for the Banner of Blood so you don't have to rely on hot dice. That makes your 20 Letters + Herald w/Crown cost 4CP total.
StarHunter25 wrote: I main WECSM, and I've been running a small khorne daemons patrol detatchment. I will say this much, for the cost 20 bloodletters + bloodmaster with the crown has been doing so much work for me. From a points efficiency and CP perspective, I am simply amazed at how efficient this unit combo is. 2CP and a little over 200 points has cleared multiple wolfen squads, razorbacks, nid swarms, death company, necron immortal blobs. Might just be my dice being hot, but I'm seriously considering bumping the letters up to 30.
If your Herald is not the Warlord, you should be paying 1CP for that Crown. You should also always be paying the extra 1CP for the Banner of Blood so you don't have to rely on hot dice. That makes your 20 Letters + Herald w/Crown cost 4CP total.
hmmm that itneresting i don't really run myu blood letters like that. i went from spending cp on deepstriking theh erald and 30 bloodletters all the way down to just deep striking 20bloodletters on their own with banner.
I think the big blood letter bomb has to be pretty 2nd wave or else it can't really take advantage of it's surface area. . So right now i just run a 20man bloodletter squad just to clear out chaffe and such . The only support it might get is from my daemon prince with wings.
I first turn drop 20 blood letters and 30 pink horrors to clear screen, chaffe and scout. While i also drop my two greater daemons, and move forward my 3 daemon princes.
Another thing i just discovered is how awesome spiting is for horrors. They really do work. They drop down and shoot up few blocks of screen, and then they split up into a big monster size hard to kill screen. I think if you use them with spliot it might actualy be worth bring a banner for pinkhorrors as the more you split the worse your morale check can turn out at the end of the turn.
Paikkio wrote: I'm looking for an aggressive Nurgle list: must have epidemius DP drones gou obl nurglings and gnarlmaw.
I'm in doubt about how invest the test of the point.. mortarion or more body
I've had 2 games with the following. 1 against BA, and the other against infantry DG with poxwalker spam. So I havent had a chance to try against anything slightly mobile lol.
2 battalions
GUO (sword/flail)
Rotigus
Epidemius
Poxbringer
Scriviner
Talons winged DP with horn.
30PB with instrument/icon
5x3 nurglings
1 beast
9 drones with instrument/icon
Gnarlmaw
I start the drones in cover of the gnarlmaw, pointing them at whatever I want to get stuck in with, prince near them as well. Keep the 2 GUO and 30 PB in reserves. Poxbringer and scriviner will advance up to wherever you are trying to drop the PB, poxbringer can also stay close to drones. Both times I've snaked the PB unit into range of the 2 characters, which also helps with DS denial. Prince with horn can do wonders for PB support. Both games my PB havent dropped below 25 because the horn brings so many back. 4 psykers for lots of smite, I give the GUO nurgles rot due to his mobility. Rotigus generally does smite and the nurgle D3 mortal wounds, dealing 2+2d3 mortal wounds a turn, which is pretty nice. I've tried it with the banner for 2dmg on pb, and I don't think they need it. With a herald and scriviner nearby they do plenty. If you really want them to kill something, put the +1 to wound spell on them.
Both games my GUO were above 15 wounds at the end of it. The flail/sword puts out very awesome dmg, and rotigus is no slouch either. You end up with 3 big bullet magnets, enough nurglings to really corner your opponents deep strike, as well as get objectives quick and easy. One game I went first, Drones got a T1 charge, charged as much as they possibly could, PB landed and formed a nice little wall to box his army in. He deep struck a few things to try to get objectives, but nurglings forced them close to a GUO, who cleaned it all up. Second game I got second. Bunch of lascannons into my drones, bolters into nurglings, didn't take much dmg. Second turn I did the same thing and boxed him in. He got up to like 40 poxwalkers, but in one turn I took them down to 5. Drones and PB were doing serious work. Swing with the DP before the PB and you get extra models for more attacks!
Like I mentioned, I havent tried it against any really mobile armies, or faced any fliers yet, only marines on the ground so far. Though it has been very fun!
I've been thinking about Bloat drones, heralds and gnarlmaws. I feel like a list of all that could be really fun. Drop a few gnarlmaws around and you could have a speedy nurgle list, with everything advancing without penalty every turn. Heralds giving the bonus S, epidemius doing what he does, and the spitters dealing some pretty decent dmg.
I have a question, I have recently gotten myself some furies, 10 of them, and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with them? I was thinking 2 squads of 5 with Mark of tzeench or mark of nurgle, I play soup chaos deamon so loci isn't a thing.
My feeling is squads of 5 are so small that no one is going to focus on them. I can use them as harassment units or objective grabbers with their speed. Slaanesh is out because I don't see any need for fight first and khorne who would make them tougher on the assault doesn't help keep them alive.
gwarsh41 wrote: I think the only use I will ever have for furies is cheap option to make a brigade.
Well yeah, that's kind of the other part in wanting them, to help get cheap command points. But I still would like to use them with a plan. Like using them to tie up other small skirmish units, I think they would work well as an option for dealing with other units that have the same job. But is 4++ or 5+++ the way to go? I am thinking 5+++ is better....
But there are stratagems that can make tzeentch units interesting. Especially with tsons coming out soon and I have a tson army.
Yeah, DR is a very useful trait, but also consider the possibility of getting the Locus. I hear the Tzeentch one is much better on the table than on paper. Though Furies will probably be shot to death by bolt guns, youll basically have flying poxwalkers with nurgle, right?
I tried an aggressive Slaanesh deep strike list tonight. My opponent was playing Green Tide Orks. Pink Tide vs Green Tide. This was probably the most outlier battle I could have done for this list. As the Orks matched me in sheer numbers, and the amount of overwatch shots a single unit of Boyz gets is devastating. Ork Boyz are also S4/T4/A2 which makes their fight phase dangerous to T3 daemonettes.
Battalion #1
HQ Masque of Slaanesh
Herald of Slaanesh
Elites
Fiends of Slaanesh x4
Troops
Daemonettes x20 + icon + instrument
Daemonettes x20 + icon + instrument
Daemonettes x10
Battalion #3
HQ Warlod Daemon Prince with Mark of Excess & Savage Hedonist
Daemon Prince with Wings and Soulstealer (spent a stratagem)
Troops
Daemonettes x20 + icon + instrument
Daemonettes x20 + icon + instrument
Daemonettes x10
I won first turn and deep strike the wingless daemon princess, 2 x20 units of daemonettes, and the Fiends of Slaanesh, in. 2 walking units of daemonttes managed to advance as far as the deep striking units. I failed 4/6 charges. Probability wise that is about what it should have been. 2 daemonettes managed to get in. Ironically it was the walking ones. All 4 daemonette units that charged suffered overwatch causalities and dropped below 20-unit size.
The game went back and forth for 2 rounds, but we called it early because it was getting late but the Ork player was probably going to win due to shooting once the main melee combat finished.
If the Ork player had won first turn he would have had effective shooting with his shootas against the daemonettes but wouldn’t have been in charge range. Which would put me at a further disadvantage trying to assault an Ork boy units of 30 with < 20-unit size daemonettes.
Against a different opponent the core problem remains. Getting the charge in from deep strike is a low probability roll. It is also a large CP investment for a Codex that does not have the ability to regain CP.
My take away from this list is the following:
• Fiends of Slaanesh with a moderate point reduction would be a fantastic unit. I kind of wish their claws were -2AP at 46pts though.
• 20 daemonettes doesn’t work very well in play. Although it saves 1 CP when using “Denizens of the Warp” to deploy. Maybe they can deep strike in to charge a unit already engage in combat to avoid overwatch? Although I have a unit locked in combat I don’t think I would often need 20 fresh daemonettes to join in?
• “Denizens of the Warp” stinks for Slaanesh. It negates Slaanesh locus and Slaanesh’ built in speed. Tzeetch & Khorne, gain more from “Denizens of the Warp” as Tzeetch can shoot and Khorne can reroll charges with a locus.
• 2 of my 4 walking daemonette units managed to walk to charge range turn 1.
• If I had taken my normal list of 6 x10 seekers, 3 daemon princes, and 2 heralds of Slaanesh. I would have had no issue having my army in easy charge range turn 1. Dedicating so much of my list and CP to deep striking didn’t really pay off.
I am also struggling to find a place for daemonettes. They require a Herald of Slaanesh nearby to really do damage and is rare that a full-strength unit gets into combat. For defense the Masque is the only option. It just seems like I need to invest a lot of points into support characters to make daemonettes effective in combat.
30 daemonettes vs MEQ will cause 15 slain
30 daemonettes + herald buff vs MEQ will cause 30 slain
30 daemonettes vs GEQ will cause 26 slain
30 daemonettes + herald buff vs GEQ 45 slain
While a Seeker is about 2.7x as much as a Daemonette. They are fast enough to get somewhere and charge in. Seekers at unit size of 10 they are roughly the same price as 30 daemonettes but 10-unit size also makes Seekers less risky for morale loss. At the expense of a lot of claw attacks compared to a 30 size daemonette squad.
I think you have summed demonettes up perfectly, there is something about them that just doesn't work as well as it seems it should. This makes me sad personally because I have quite a few of them already.
Your right though, they need to have a Herald near them to make them really work well.
My thought regarding daemonettes is have them all on the board in max squads and advance them in waves, 1st wave takes fire, 2nd wave remains intact and charges. I think your best bet for slaanesh denizens is to deep strike the big guys like KOS somewhere oos, psychic shenanigans, then engage next turn.
Also I previously mentioned deepstriking Skarbrand near a unit of daemonettes in combat for the +1 attack coupled with all of the psychic support, masque, and herald can make them downright terrifying.
operkoi wrote: My thought regarding daemonettes is have them all on the board in max squads and advance them in waves, 1st wave takes fire, 2nd wave remains intact and charges. I think your best bet for slaanesh denizens is to deep strike the big guys like KOS somewhere oos, psychic shenanigans, then engage next turn.
Also I previously mentioned deepstriking Skarbrand near a unit of daemonettes in combat for the +1 attack coupled with all of the psychic support, masque, and herald can make them downright terrifying.
Do you bring Skarbrand in an Auxiliary Support Detachment?
fiends are the MVP. Run lots of those if they start geting stuck in combat they will be near unstopable. with a few chariots in the back that can't be targeted due to fiends locked in combat being in the way.
from there daemonettes while i think (i didn't care to do the math) i believe do more damage getting them into thier dream situation is alot harder. You have to get full surrounds and not kill your prey which is very tough for a on foot based unit.
im playing a list with about 15 noise marines, im thinking about switch them with 25-30 pink horrors supported by fluxmaster is that worth? 90 shots vs 45 but at 4+ than 3+, more or less same resistance ti 4++ vs ta 3+, noise gives me some CC power and they can shoot also if die but they need a way to be delivered where i need, horrors can ds, noise can get votlw for +1 to wound, horrors can have +1 to wound by the spell, and get ti 3++ if needed, bit undecided
operkoi wrote: My thought regarding daemonettes is have them all on the board in max squads and advance them in waves, 1st wave takes fire, 2nd wave remains intact and charges. I think your best bet for slaanesh denizens is to deep strike the big guys like KOS somewhere oos, psychic shenanigans, then engage next turn.
Also I previously mentioned deepstriking Skarbrand near a unit of daemonettes in combat for the +1 attack coupled with all of the psychic support, masque, and herald can make them downright terrifying.
Do you bring Skarbrand in an Auxiliary Support Detachment?
my plan is bring him in a supreme command detachment alongside a khorne herald, dp, and maybe juggernauts
Captyn_Bob wrote: Well colour me impressed. A daemons /death guard list with 500 pts of summoning has made the top 8 at lvo.
And everyone thought summoning was bad.
Now to look up what a vortex aqulia is and why it's worth over 400pts .
vortex aquila deal mortal wounds, a resilient fire platform shooting out up to 6d6 mortal wound plus another d6 on 6+ if target survive (plus if you want 12 heavy bolter shots) each time it hits, put inside up to 15 cultists and you fine. Summoning is like having a "sideboard" so you can adjiust ur tactic based on what you are facing, but for me summoning is still not easy to make worth, ha has lot of units which can summon, is another way to counter alpha strikes armies.
Yeah but summoning feels very anti-synergy. Troops don't get obsec, you don't get CP for them, you have to risk the summon roll, you have to have a summoner stand in place....
Captyn_Bob wrote: Well colour me impressed. A daemons /death guard list with 500 pts of summoning has made the top 8 at lvo.
And everyone thought summoning was bad.
Now to look up what a vortex aqulia is and why it's worth over 400pts .
He isn't summoning, he's splitting. The list is a supercharged poxwalker farm; spawn infinite horrors which in turn spawn infinite poxwalkers through Dead Rise Again, which fills the board to such an extent your opponent can't even move.
Ran a list today with a DP of Nurgle with Corruption. Took 2 turns to take out a Nemesis Grey Knight. I think the +1 wound WL trait, +1 wound psychic power and a regular Helforged Sword would do better with the Locus. Thoughts?
Wow. Poxwalkers have struck me as broken since DG Codex dropped, especially in smaller games. Now... I think the walking dead Stratagem needs to add Daemons to the list of exceptions. It’s taking two mechanisms that are already waaay open to abuse and multiplying them.
if you play cloud of flies on 1 of pox, they become nealy unkillable with shooting and they grow in the meanwhile you kill other units, in lists with lot of cultists or horrors (splitting) you can generate almost infinite poxwalkers.
You just ignore the horrors and the strong point isnt up to much
its d6 shots hitting on a 5...
I think he probably had a lot more tactics going on than his list suggests and likely used a fair number of those reserve points to summon key daemon units (i expect he came with a case LOADED with 1-2x every single daemons unit there is)
u cant ignore horrors if they shoot at you 90 shots each turn or when they sit on obj if you ignore you lose anyway so...then first or later horrors will charge you and split when they are killed generating poxes....
You just ignore the horrors and the strong point isnt up to much
its d6 shots hitting on a 5...
I think he probably had a lot more tactics going on than his list suggests and likely used a fair number of those reserve points to summon key daemon units (i expect he came with a case LOADED with 1-2x every single daemons unit there is)
Just the one case?
I’ve brought two duplex cases to games with a smaller Summoning budget than that
You just ignore the horrors and the strong point isnt up to much
its d6 shots hitting on a 5...
I think he probably had a lot more tactics going on than his list suggests and likely used a fair number of those reserve points to summon key daemon units (i expect he came with a case LOADED with 1-2x every single daemons unit there is)
Just the one case?
I’ve brought two duplex cases to games with a smaller Summoning budget than that
Always be prepared right? If you own 'em, bring 'em - that's the safest policy with summoning units. You never can tell what you're going to need in a given game.
Do you think if we all ask on the facebook page for them to update the chaos daemons, daemon prince of tzeentch to get 2 powers like the one in the Tsons book.... lmao
mmimzie wrote: Do you think if we all ask on the facebook page for them to update the chaos daemons, daemon prince of tzeentch to get 2 powers like the one in the Tsons book.... lmao
Haven't seen that about princes, link me some leaks?
mmimzie wrote: Do you think if we all ask on the facebook page for them to update the chaos daemons, daemon prince of tzeentch to get 2 powers like the one in the Tsons book.... lmao
Haven't seen that about princes, link me some leaks?
Basically the Thousand sons daemon prince is exactly like ours (4++)...
...Except he has the Thousand Sons/Heretic Astartes faction keywords instead of Daemon, has Death to the False Emperor, has +6" to his cast range, and knows two powers (instead of one) in addition to smite from dark hereticus/change/tzeentch and can cast two powers (instead of one). All of this for no extra cost!
Basically he's just flat better than the Tzeentch daemon prince in our codex.
mmimzie wrote: Do you think if we all ask on the facebook page for them to update the chaos daemons, daemon prince of tzeentch to get 2 powers like the one in the Tsons book.... lmao
Haven't seen that about princes, link me some leaks?
Basically the Thousand sons daemon prince is exactly like ours (4++)...
...Except he has the Thousand Sons/Heretic Astartes faction keywords instead of Daemon, has Death to the False Emperor, has +6" to his cast range, and knows two powers (instead of one) in addition to smite from dark hereticus/change/tzeentch and can cast two powers (instead of one). All of this for no extra cost!
Basically he's just flat better than the Tzeentch daemon prince in our codex.
just another hint any rule GW made is for sell codex/models, basically now i use demons and ally Ts for their Dp's and there is still someone think they care of balance.
mmimzie wrote: Do you think if we all ask on the facebook page for them to update the chaos daemons, daemon prince of tzeentch to get 2 powers like the one in the Tsons book.... lmao
Haven't seen that about princes, link me some leaks?
Basically the Thousand sons daemon prince is exactly like ours (4++)...
...Except he has the Thousand Sons/Heretic Astartes faction keywords instead of Daemon, has Death to the False Emperor, has +6" to his cast range, and knows two powers (instead of one) in addition to smite from dark hereticus/change/tzeentch and can cast two powers (instead of one). All of this for no extra cost!
Basically he's just flat better than the Tzeentch daemon prince in our codex.
just another hint any rule GW made is for sell codex/models, basically now i use demons and ally Ts for their Dp's and there is still someone think they care of balance.
I disagree the tzeentch daemon Prince as it is now is the worst in the chaos daemons book. The nurgle Prince can cast virulence bless or nurgle for to great effecg. He can also wells curruption. While the khorne guy is a poor man's primarch. The tzneetch guy.... The best he can hope for is boon of change. With two spells he'd be on par with the others.
I played agaisnt Joshua Death's list of poxwalker with pink's. It was insane and very deceptive for ITC. It prompts you to take reaper but then the poxwalkers are within 10T 30W structure.
Definitely won me over to the strength of tzeentch. Likely retooling my list and dropping letters which were just reaper chaffe and CP sinks and going for pink's with a reroll (tzeench psychic cast) which seems critical with oblits for damage roll (this is my opinion)..
orkswubwub wrote: I played agaisnt Joshua Death's list of poxwalker with pink's. It was insane and very deceptive for ITC. It prompts you to take reaper but then the poxwalkers are within 10T 30W structure.
Definitely won me over to the strength of tzeentch. Likely retooling my list and dropping letters which were just reaper chaffe and CP sinks and going for pink's with a reroll (tzeench psychic cast) which seems critical with oblits for damage roll (this is my opinion)..
I like 20 or 30 un supported blood letters (or met with a winged DP of khorne) or no blood letters. wasting my CP on heralds or skull taker just feels bad. On top of that the blood letters on thier own with out support are super cost effective chaffe killers. As such i also don't like the khorne detachment. the reroll is nice if you are bring 2 or 3 squads of 20 blood letters wwith no banners. Otherwise I think just taking the banner is good enough on a just a unit of 20.
From thier supported pink are very strong and abit more reliable as they don't need to make a charge roll. While splitting lets them act as a powerful forward screen.
orkswubwub wrote: Realize that in an ITC list 20 letters gives up reaper very easily. Also if you lose even one letter on overwatch you will lose the hit bonus.
A 30 man blood letter unit give it up just about as easy, It's certainly 50% durability but once you start geting past 7 kills you are praying for 1s on the banner for morale. So you have sorta deminishing returns on them that way. not to mention they are a 7pt guardsman squad.
As for the hit bonus the blood letters are still hyper effective on the charge rivaling most of the big hitter melee squads out thier for damage out put with or with out the to hit bonus. I definitly lean more toward not bringing them as they need too much dedication for something that can very easily get counters by a screen, auspex scan, forewarning, etc.
orkswubwub wrote: I played agaisnt Joshua Death's list of poxwalker with pink's. It was insane and very deceptive for ITC. It prompts you to take reaper but then the poxwalkers are within 10T 30W structure.
Definitely won me over to the strength of tzeentch. Likely retooling my list and dropping letters which were just reaper chaffe and CP sinks and going for pink's with a reroll (tzeench psychic cast) which seems critical with oblits for damage roll (this is my opinion)..
Care to share more about how his list plays out and what he summoned against you?
So... if you invoke a horror's split, it "dies" being the trigger to use that wazzit DG strategem that creates more poxwalkers?
Yep. You cloud the poxes with flies so they can't be shot, and boost the horrors so they are a real threat , now your opponent is lose lose for options
So i Ran a list essentially DG, CSM and Daemon Soup. 3x PBC (spewers), Deamon Prince / 3 x 3 oblits and sorcerer/lord , 20 letters and some plaguebearers with a khorne prince and poxbringer.
His list:
Changling
CHangecaster
-Grimoire
-Staff of Change
30 Pink horros
10 Brims
10 Brims
Daemon Prince of nurgle w/ wings malefic and 2x talons
Typhus
10 cultists
10 cultists
19 poxwalkers
Vortex Aquila Stronghold.
553 points reinforcements
So looking at the list (and not knowing who you are playing against) one may be inclined to take reaper against this list. That was a huge mistake. Everything basically started embarrked in the aquila aside from 30 pinks. First turn was basically either shoot the pinks or the aquila (for those who don't know 30W at 10T) as all characters were bubble wrapped. I made a beginner mistake (trying to remove said bubble wrap and not ancitipating the split) and dropped in some 20 blood letters who failed a 3d6 charge with a roll of 1, 2, 3
Shot pinks with 4++ and didn't accomplish much. Poxwalkers emerged from the aquila (were embarked so essentially all the troops are untargetable). He popped strat, pinks killed letters, grew literally towards my entire force (every model lets him put one two inches away in any direction) and essentialy wrapped around my entire force with poxwalkers. Everything got stuck and there were no eliglbe targets to kill on my turn. The oblits couldnt' shoot the poxwalkers because they had 3-4 units tied in melee (abusing pile in and consolidate to grow into other units, 3 dead model s= 6 inch tendril). Only eliglibe target the entire game was either aquila or the pinks - which if you shoot will only split and make more poxes. He had 9 CP so essentially just made poxes untargetable if he needed.
Obvious tactics are obvious - walkers were daisy chained to typhus to get blades etc. Horrors always by changeling.
Summoned in a blue scribes too somewhere in there to damn my psychic ability to smite anything and stole death hex (no more casts) also happened to roll treason of tzeentch. He accidentally rolled 3 dice for the treason but it was NBD as I was lost as soon as the poxwalkers had everything in melee (end of turn 1 really).
Don't hold me to the exact ranges he was growing his poxwalkers but that is mroe or less how it worked, after getting one unit in melee he was able to get many other units enmeshed as well and then do what he wanted to take secondary points and outman on the primaries. It isn't the kind of list that tables you but prevents you from taking secondaries. Probably a better bet against this kind of list would be to go behind enemy lines, recon, and another that is more individual of wiping out units. Or to save the bloodletters to clean up the poxes after they try to grow towards the force as they only really have a 5+++ to fall back on - it would significantly shrink the primary win condition.
Pinks never dropped below 21 models as all further damage goes to blues and brims - so dakka stands tall - needless to say all of these blues splitting also adds more poxes.
Also - P.S. Aquila can hurt a lot when it wants to =(
This is from memory so probably some errors, happened first day of tournament.
pretty close to the winners list of the german championship mid january. Its close in the sense that horrors (and cultists) were used to create poxies and flood the board. not even those stupid dark reapers and shining spears lists are able to withold. Only thing: The Horror and changeling nerf wasnt in effect. But truth is: Its not that necessary.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Hmmm I thought his might be happening. I don't think you can apply the dead walk again stratagem to an embarked unit. I guess it's debatable.
I don't think it's usable either--the first turn he's disembarking. That stratagem is used at the start of the movement phase and the poxwalkers are still in the building at that point and can't be affected in any way due to the rules of transports.
I think these sorts of rules get allowed in tournaments simply because both players aren't always following all the steps in sequence, and the opposing player is unaware.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Hmmm I thought his might be happening. I don't think you can apply the dead walk again stratagem to an embarked unit. I guess it's debatable.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Hmmm I thought his might be happening. I don't think you can apply the dead walk again stratagem to an embarked unit. I guess it's debatable.
i guess judges let him did that
I doubt the judges were even made aware of the situation if the opposing player had no idea it was even illegal to do.
It's a toss up if its usable. I don't think it is usable since it says you can transport, and thus uses the transport rules for embarking/dismebarking. In such case units can't be effected by anything while embarked.
Reguardless I think the pink horrors are still a very powerful element. 30 powerful shooting model that are almost like character protected by 100+ brim stones and blue horrors. You definitly need 2cp in your pocket to throw down auto pass morale atleast once. The banner might also be worth something as you can force a morale check on your own turn by killing a brimstone in the psykic phase, giving you a 1 in6 chance to get even more pink horrors added to the squad.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Hmmm I thought his might be happening. I don't think you can apply the dead walk again stratagem to an embarked unit. I guess it's debatable.
I don't think it's usable either--the first turn he's disembarking. That stratagem is used at the start of the movement phase and the poxwalkers are still in the building at that point and can't be affected in any way due to the rules of transports.
I think these sorts of rules get allowed in tournaments simply because both players aren't always following all the steps in sequence, and the opposing player is unaware.
Maybe swap out that Acquilla with that Nurgle Tree to achieve the same sort of list???
Sadly the tree only effects daemons, which poxwalkers are not.
With terrain and some redundancy you should be able to screen alpha strikes, but I can see why it'd be difficult at that level of play.
Deploying in a fort may still be a good option but you won't get the horde going until turn 2.. risky
orkswubwub wrote: Realize that in an ITC list 20 letters gives up reaper very easily. Also if you lose even one letter on overwatch you will lose the hit bonus.
A 30 man blood letter unit give it up just about as easy, It's certainly 50% durability but once you start geting past 7 kills you are praying for 1s on the banner for morale. So you have sorta deminishing returns on them that way. not to mention they are a 7pt guardsman squad.
As for the hit bonus the blood letters are still hyper effective on the charge rivaling most of the big hitter melee squads out thier for damage out put with or with out the to hit bonus. I definitly lean more toward not bringing them as they need too much dedication for something that can very easily get counters by a screen, auspex scan, forewarning, etc.
I ran some numbers against three units (180~ points of each): Blood Slaughterer with Harpoon, 9 Berzerkers with Power Fist attacking twice, and 22 Bloodletters with Icon + Banner. I wanted to see how much damage they would do against Toughness 7/8 vehicles with 10 wounds and a 3+ in one fight phase, no rerolls or buffs of any kind (except what they have naturally).
The Blood Slaughterer and Berzerkers almost kill the vehicle, getting 9 - 9.5 wounds on average. The Bloodletters, reducing their numbers to 19 after taking overwatch, overkill it by 1-2 wounds on average.
It's a little flippin' ridiculous how powerful Bloodletters are right now simply due to -3AP and 2D on 6s. You need nothing else, whereas if you want your other melee units doing equal or more damage they will need outside help. Any outside help to Bloodletters makes them even crazier. This pretty much solidifies my 3x20 Bloodletter unit list. I'm also dropping the deep striking Herald idea since it is unnecessary. Someone on Bolter and Chainsword is pushing for Wingless Daemon Prince with Skullreaver and I'm starting to agree with him.
mmimzie wrote: It's a toss up if its usable. I don't think it is usable since it says you can transport, and thus uses the transport rules for embarking/dismebarking. In such case units can't be effected by anything while embarked.
Reguardless I think the pink horrors are still a very powerful element. 30 powerful shooting model that are almost like character protected by 100+ brim stones and blue horrors. You definitly need 2cp in your pocket to throw down auto pass morale atleast once. The banner might also be worth something as you can force a morale check on your own turn by killing a brimstone in the psykic phase, giving you a 1 in6 chance to get even more pink horrors added to the squad.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Hmmm I thought his might be happening. I don't think you can apply the dead walk again stratagem to an embarked unit. I guess it's debatable.
i guess judges let him did that
I doubt the judges were even made aware of the situation if the opposing player had no idea it was even illegal to do.
well he played 6 whole rounds, strange no one got aware, he almost made top 8
blackmage wrote:
dont you plan to Ds pink horrors?
blackmage wrote:
well he played 6 whole rounds, strange no one got aware, he almost made top 8
I do plan to DS them. No reason to give out free kill on my horrors before i have had a chance to shoot with them. So it'd definitly a 4cp investment, but with daemons most of your CP is spent in list creation with deep strikes and such. While the horror unit is very good for ITC forcing your opponent to kill ~100 guys before they have get thier 2 reaper points or otherwise basicly isn't worth the effort to go for reaper, and appart from that the unit doesn't really participate in any of the other secondaries very well either.
When you play tournmanets its very easy to cheat of accidently cheat. No every opponent is like reading the rule book on every single thing you do or know your stratagems by heart. So getting called on something is kind of unrealistic. That said looking at the ladder board i don't see him in the top 25 so maybe he ended up getting disqualified anyway. I know thier was some points recording snaffu as well where he also wasn't really in the top 8 or something?/
Captyn_Bob wrote: Hmmm I thought his might be happening. I don't think you can apply the dead walk again stratagem to an embarked unit. I guess it's debatable.
i guess judges let him did that
I doubt the judges were even made aware of the situation if the opposing player had no idea it was even illegal to do.
well he played 6 whole rounds, strange no one got aware, he almost made top 8
There's a lot of subtle language in the 40k ruleset. If he wasn't explaining the rule verbatim, it could easily be overlooked. Especially if people aren't fully aware of the transport rules--which are off on a side page in the rulebook. I think it was a bad idea to have the rules layout done in that format.
Yeah TBF we only have an account of the first game of the tourney
Automatically Appended Next Post: His last game was changed from a narrow win to a narrow loss an hour after the fact due to a forgotten secondary which dropped him from the top 8 to ~ 35.
orkswubwub wrote: Realize that in an ITC list 20 letters gives up reaper very easily. Also if you lose even one letter on overwatch you will lose the hit bonus.
A 30 man blood letter unit give it up just about as easy, It's certainly 50% durability but once you start geting past 7 kills you are praying for 1s on the banner for morale. So you have sorta deminishing returns on them that way. not to mention they are a 7pt guardsman squad.
As for the hit bonus the blood letters are still hyper effective on the charge rivaling most of the big hitter melee squads out thier for damage out put with or with out the to hit bonus. I definitly lean more toward not bringing them as they need too much dedication for something that can very easily get counters by a screen, auspex scan, forewarning, etc.
I ran some numbers against three units (180~ points of each): Blood Slaughterer with Harpoon, 9 Berzerkers with Power Fist attacking twice, and 22 Bloodletters with Icon + Banner. I wanted to see how much damage they would do against Toughness 7/8 vehicles with 10 wounds and a 3+ in one fight phase, no rerolls or buffs of any kind (except what they have naturally).
The Blood Slaughterer and Berzerkers almost kill the vehicle, getting 9 - 9.5 wounds on average. The Bloodletters, reducing their numbers to 19 after taking overwatch, overkill it by 1-2 wounds on average.
It's a little flippin' ridiculous how powerful Bloodletters are right now simply due to -3AP and 2D on 6s. You need nothing else, whereas if you want your other melee units doing equal or more damage they will need outside help. Any outside help to Bloodletters makes them even crazier. This pretty much solidifies my 3x20 Bloodletter unit list. I'm also dropping the deep striking Herald idea since it is unnecessary. Someone on Bolter and Chainsword is pushing for Wingless Daemon Prince with Skullreaver and I'm starting to agree with him.
it's not really owrth it to compare units accross aries. khorne berserkers have access to rhinos and veterans of the long war stratagems. Also point aren't just balanced on damage out put. The berserkers are more durable than the letters and considerably more so if they can find cover.
Despite how good they are i'm pretty over blood letters to be honest. Getting them into melee where you are really happy is very unrealistic against most competive opponents. It needs alot of support.
orkswubwub wrote: Realize that in an ITC list 20 letters gives up reaper very easily. Also if you lose even one letter on overwatch you will lose the hit bonus.
A 30 man blood letter unit give it up just about as easy, It's certainly 50% durability but once you start geting past 7 kills you are praying for 1s on the banner for morale. So you have sorta deminishing returns on them that way. not to mention they are a 7pt guardsman squad.
As for the hit bonus the blood letters are still hyper effective on the charge rivaling most of the big hitter melee squads out thier for damage out put with or with out the to hit bonus. I definitly lean more toward not bringing them as they need too much dedication for something that can very easily get counters by a screen, auspex scan, forewarning, etc.
I ran some numbers against three units (180~ points of each): Blood Slaughterer with Harpoon, 9 Berzerkers with Power Fist attacking twice, and 22 Bloodletters with Icon + Banner. I wanted to see how much damage they would do against Toughness 7/8 vehicles with 10 wounds and a 3+ in one fight phase, no rerolls or buffs of any kind (except what they have naturally).
The Blood Slaughterer and Berzerkers almost kill the vehicle, getting 9 - 9.5 wounds on average. The Bloodletters, reducing their numbers to 19 after taking overwatch, overkill it by 1-2 wounds on average.
It's a little flippin' ridiculous how powerful Bloodletters are right now simply due to -3AP and 2D on 6s. You need nothing else, whereas if you want your other melee units doing equal or more damage they will need outside help. Any outside help to Bloodletters makes them even crazier. This pretty much solidifies my 3x20 Bloodletter unit list. I'm also dropping the deep striking Herald idea since it is unnecessary. Someone on Bolter and Chainsword is pushing for Wingless Daemon Prince with Skullreaver and I'm starting to agree with him.
it's not really owrth it to compare units accross aries. khorne berserkers have access to rhinos and veterans of the long war stratagems. Also point aren't just balanced on damage out put. The berserkers are more durable than the letters and considerably more so if they can find cover.
Despite how good they are i'm pretty over blood letters to be honest. Getting them into melee where you are really happy is very unrealistic against most competive opponents. It needs alot of support.
Completely 100% from a Khorne Daemonkin perspective: It's good to look at all your options. Unbuffed and just deep striking in, Bloodletters are really really good. Equal points of Berzerkers need a Rhino or Drop Pod, or even just a big blob of 20, and if you're investing that much into them you'll want to add aura HQs to pump them up even more. Bloodletters are can function completely solo and do just as well if not better than Berzerkers. They do not need support.
I was looking at them purely from an offensive standpoint because Khorne units deal a ton of damage and then die. Yes, Berzerkers are tougher than Bloodletters, but point for point the Bloodletter will deal more damage and is almost guaranteed to get into close combat due to the 3D6 charge out of deep strike. Berzerkers require additional support and at the end of the day are heavily reliant on reroll auras and their Power Fist champ to do the heavy lifting. They work, but they are expensive. They have a purpose, however, since some opponents will attempt to deny you deep strike room. You need those Berzerkers or other units on the board to clear room for your Bloodletters. Screens and gunlines are still a problem for melee armies, but 60~ Bloodletters with 20~ Berzerkers in boxes close behind is looking real nice right now.
BTW why the heck would Berzerkers ever be in cover? I can see charging into a building or charging into cover, but I can't ever imagine a situation where I park my Berzerkers in cover or even care about their durability when outside a Rhino. MEQ are as paper as Bloodletters in the current meta, and being in cover doesn't help much right now. Khorne units kill and die, that's all.
The issue of using the stratagem was addressed with the judges during the tournament and readdressed multiple times throughout when it was brought up by players/opponents. At no point during the event was I attempting to mislead my opponents on the use of stratagems or abilities. Just an FYI.
If anyone is interested I would be more than willing to give a rundown on how I played the list and why I played/built it the way I did.
TwitchyReaper wrote: The issue of using the stratagem was addressed with the judges during the tournament and readdressed multiple times throughout when it was brought up by players/opponents. At no point during the event was I attempting to mislead my opponents on the use of stratagems or abilities. Just an FYI.
If anyone is interested I would be more than willing to give a rundown on how I played the list and why I played/built it the way I did.
orkswubwub wrote: Realize that in an ITC list 20 letters gives up reaper very easily. Also if you lose even one letter on overwatch you will lose the hit bonus.
A 30 man blood letter unit give it up just about as easy, It's certainly 50% durability but once you start geting past 7 kills you are praying for 1s on the banner for morale. So you have sorta deminishing returns on them that way. not to mention they are a 7pt guardsman squad.
As for the hit bonus the blood letters are still hyper effective on the charge rivaling most of the big hitter melee squads out thier for damage out put with or with out the to hit bonus. I definitly lean more toward not bringing them as they need too much dedication for something that can very easily get counters by a screen, auspex scan, forewarning, etc.
I ran some numbers against three units (180~ points of each): Blood Slaughterer with Harpoon, 9 Berzerkers with Power Fist attacking twice, and 22 Bloodletters with Icon + Banner. I wanted to see how much damage they would do against Toughness 7/8 vehicles with 10 wounds and a 3+ in one fight phase, no rerolls or buffs of any kind (except what they have naturally).
The Blood Slaughterer and Berzerkers almost kill the vehicle, getting 9 - 9.5 wounds on average. The Bloodletters, reducing their numbers to 19 after taking overwatch, overkill it by 1-2 wounds on average.
It's a little flippin' ridiculous how powerful Bloodletters are right now simply due to -3AP and 2D on 6s. You need nothing else, whereas if you want your other melee units doing equal or more damage they will need outside help. Any outside help to Bloodletters makes them even crazier. This pretty much solidifies my 3x20 Bloodletter unit list. I'm also dropping the deep striking Herald idea since it is unnecessary. Someone on Bolter and Chainsword is pushing for Wingless Daemon Prince with Skullreaver and I'm starting to agree with him.
it's not really owrth it to compare units accross aries. khorne berserkers have access to rhinos and veterans of the long war stratagems. Also point aren't just balanced on damage out put. The berserkers are more durable than the letters and considerably more so if they can find cover.
Despite how good they are i'm pretty over blood letters to be honest. Getting them into melee where you are really happy is very unrealistic against most competive opponents. It needs alot of support.
Completely 100% from a Khorne Daemonkin perspective: It's good to look at all your options. Unbuffed and just deep striking in, Bloodletters are really really good. Equal points of Berzerkers need a Rhino or Drop Pod, or even just a big blob of 20, and if you're investing that much into them you'll want to add aura HQs to pump them up even more. Bloodletters are can function completely solo and do just as well if not better than Berzerkers. They do not need support.
I was looking at them purely from an offensive standpoint because Khorne units deal a ton of damage and then die. Yes, Berzerkers are tougher than Bloodletters, but point for point the Bloodletter will deal more damage and is almost guaranteed to get into close combat due to the 3D6 charge out of deep strike. Berzerkers require additional support and at the end of the day are heavily reliant on reroll auras and their Power Fist champ to do the heavy lifting. They work, but they are expensive. They have a purpose, however, since some opponents will attempt to deny you deep strike room. You need those Berzerkers or other units on the board to clear room for your Bloodletters. Screens and gunlines are still a problem for melee armies, but 60~ Bloodletters with 20~ Berzerkers in boxes close behind is looking real nice right now.
BTW why the heck would Berzerkers ever be in cover? I can see charging into a building or charging into cover, but I can't ever imagine a situation where I park my Berzerkers in cover or even care about their durability when outside a Rhino. MEQ are as paper as Bloodletters in the current meta, and being in cover doesn't help much right now. Khorne units kill and die, that's all.
Sure.... reguardless your comparing unbuffed berserkers to.... bloodletter you are spending 2 or 3 cp on (which is a buff that requires either all your dp or atleast 3 other troops choice in a battalion). A buff that can by it's own use and aquaition of points could be game lose by giving away free point from brimstones to taking tax blood letter squads.
before i continue. Note i think blood letters are fantastic, but flawed in that for them to do what they do they they can be quickly countered by a 50-60pt investment or by spending a cp on auspex scan.
Now the blood letter deep strike thing is great, but your rather limited in thier execution as out line above. They need your prefered target to be sort of just out in the open or they need the rest of your army to clear things up for them. Once they hit the table as you said they evaporate unless you can get your opoonent to provide you an eternal combat for them to be locked into. All of this boils down to them droping down hard and then being abit useless against most competive list where you drop down and can only get into contact with a ranger squad, or abit slow where they don't get that turn one impact. For the reroll charge you need to take a khorne daemons detachment... which is problematic. Either your taking a patrol and thus are forced to take a daemonprince of khorne (because hes good and can catch up tot he bloodletter and provide buffs) or a blood master (becauses he's the cheapest option). IN which case you need to go rob CP from elese where in your list, or you make a full khorne battalion. In doing a khorne battalion your not realistically deep striking everything with out also robbing even more CP from else where in your list or bring tax blood letter.s
Alternatively you could not spend CP and spend just straight up points on a rhino or something to throw your berserkers in. Have them move around the table and walk past said deep strike impediments. All the while they are providing a function to your army as if they or thier transport is getting shot the rest of your army is being saved some bit of fire power that is not aimed thier way. In contrast the blood letters are doing nothing at all till they come on the table. If the blood letters try to do the walk up the table then you just have guardsmen that cost almost twice as much and dont benefit from cover, but do ignore rend.
So if you are interested in the best damage out put unit bloodletters do that, but you gotta get them there and no matter what you do they definitely need some investment to be good IE CP and maybe a khorne daemons detachment
TwitchyReaper wrote: The issue of using the stratagem was addressed with the judges during the tournament and readdressed multiple times throughout when it was brought up by players/opponents. At no point during the event was I attempting to mislead my opponents on the use of stratagems or abilities. Just an FYI.
If anyone is interested I would be more than willing to give a rundown on how I played the list and why I played/built it the way I did.
Just wanted to clarify that if it helps.
Well obviously, we'd love a rundown! Such a unorthodox list!
TwitchyReaper wrote: The issue of using the stratagem was addressed with the judges during the tournament and readdressed multiple times throughout when it was brought up by players/opponents. At no point during the event was I attempting to mislead my opponents on the use of stratagems or abilities. Just an FYI.
If anyone is interested I would be more than willing to give a rundown on how I played the list and why I played/built it the way I did.
Just wanted to clarify that if it helps.
Weren't you top 8 at the end of day 2? I checked briefly (nosily following up on how my opponents did) and you were WWWWWW, and then the next day it was updated to WWWWWL?
Also as a side note, TwitchyReaper was an extremely mannered opponent (there are a lot of rude people in tourny setting) and I had a blast even though I lost (really badly).
Also really disagree with bloodletters still - you are paying a hefty price to put banner and deepstrike on them (lets say you brought 3x20 - that's 6 CP) to probably charge a nothing unit (unless you are playing at FLGS for funnsies) and you will 100% lose probably all of them turn 2 - all they have is a 5 up invul - brutal morale check, and you've already burned a lot of CP! If you use morale save for one you will essentially be burning 4 CP for that unit to charge what... a 10 man cultist squad? Letters don't come out cheap if you run a reasonable number and losing 1/4 of your army turn 1 your opponent shoots back hurts - also give up Reaper extreeeemly easily.
This is obviously just my two cents, to each their own and of course there is no "one way" to play. Either way, blood for the blood god right?
TwitchyReaper wrote: The issue of using the stratagem was addressed with the judges during the tournament and readdressed multiple times throughout when it was brought up by players/opponents. At no point during the event was I attempting to mislead my opponents on the use of stratagems or abilities. Just an FYI.
If anyone is interested I would be more than willing to give a rundown on how I played the list and why I played/built it the way I did.
Just wanted to clarify that if it helps.
what list did you play? im testing for etc, im intersted to know about demon lists.
orkswubwub wrote: Realize that in an ITC list 20 letters gives up reaper very easily. Also if you lose even one letter on overwatch you will lose the hit bonus.
A 30 man blood letter unit give it up just about as easy, It's certainly 50% durability but once you start geting past 7 kills you are praying for 1s on the banner for morale. So you have sorta deminishing returns on them that way. not to mention they are a 7pt guardsman squad.
As for the hit bonus the blood letters are still hyper effective on the charge rivaling most of the big hitter melee squads out thier for damage out put with or with out the to hit bonus. I definitly lean more toward not bringing them as they need too much dedication for something that can very easily get counters by a screen, auspex scan, forewarning, etc.
I ran some numbers against three units (180~ points of each): Blood Slaughterer with Harpoon, 9 Berzerkers with Power Fist attacking twice, and 22 Bloodletters with Icon + Banner. I wanted to see how much damage they would do against Toughness 7/8 vehicles with 10 wounds and a 3+ in one fight phase, no rerolls or buffs of any kind (except what they have naturally).
The Blood Slaughterer and Berzerkers almost kill the vehicle, getting 9 - 9.5 wounds on average. The Bloodletters, reducing their numbers to 19 after taking overwatch, overkill it by 1-2 wounds on average.
It's a little flippin' ridiculous how powerful Bloodletters are right now simply due to -3AP and 2D on 6s. You need nothing else, whereas if you want your other melee units doing equal or more damage they will need outside help. Any outside help to Bloodletters makes them even crazier. This pretty much solidifies my 3x20 Bloodletter unit list. I'm also dropping the deep striking Herald idea since it is unnecessary. Someone on Bolter and Chainsword is pushing for Wingless Daemon Prince with Skullreaver and I'm starting to agree with him.
it's not really owrth it to compare units accross aries. khorne berserkers have access to rhinos and veterans of the long war stratagems. Also point aren't just balanced on damage out put. The berserkers are more durable than the letters and considerably more so if they can find cover.
Despite how good they are i'm pretty over blood letters to be honest. Getting them into melee where you are really happy is very unrealistic against most competive opponents. It needs alot of support.
Completely 100% from a Khorne Daemonkin perspective: It's good to look at all your options. Unbuffed and just deep striking in, Bloodletters are really really good. Equal points of Berzerkers need a Rhino or Drop Pod, or even just a big blob of 20, and if you're investing that much into them you'll want to add aura HQs to pump them up even more. Bloodletters are can function completely solo and do just as well if not better than Berzerkers. They do not need support.
I was looking at them purely from an offensive standpoint because Khorne units deal a ton of damage and then die. Yes, Berzerkers are tougher than Bloodletters, but point for point the Bloodletter will deal more damage and is almost guaranteed to get into close combat due to the 3D6 charge out of deep strike. Berzerkers require additional support and at the end of the day are heavily reliant on reroll auras and their Power Fist champ to do the heavy lifting. They work, but they are expensive. They have a purpose, however, since some opponents will attempt to deny you deep strike room. You need those Berzerkers or other units on the board to clear room for your Bloodletters. Screens and gunlines are still a problem for melee armies, but 60~ Bloodletters with 20~ Berzerkers in boxes close behind is looking real nice right now.
BTW why the heck would Berzerkers ever be in cover? I can see charging into a building or charging into cover, but I can't ever imagine a situation where I park my Berzerkers in cover or even care about their durability when outside a Rhino. MEQ are as paper as Bloodletters in the current meta, and being in cover doesn't help much right now. Khorne units kill and die, that's all.
Sure.... reguardless your comparing unbuffed berserkers to.... bloodletter you are spending 2 or 3 cp on (which is a buff that requires either all your dp or atleast 3 other troops choice in a battalion). A buff that can by it's own use and aquaition of points could be game lose by giving away free point from brimstones to taking tax blood letter squads.
before i continue. Note i think blood letters are fantastic, but flawed in that for them to do what they do they they can be quickly countered by a 50-60pt investment or by spending a cp on auspex scan.
Now the blood letter deep strike thing is great, but your rather limited in thier execution as out line above. They need your prefered target to be sort of just out in the open or they need the rest of your army to clear things up for them. Once they hit the table as you said they evaporate unless you can get your opoonent to provide you an eternal combat for them to be locked into. All of this boils down to them droping down hard and then being abit useless against most competive list where you drop down and can only get into contact with a ranger squad, or abit slow where they don't get that turn one impact. For the reroll charge you need to take a khorne daemons detachment... which is problematic. Either your taking a patrol and thus are forced to take a daemonprince of khorne (because hes good and can catch up tot he bloodletter and provide buffs) or a blood master (becauses he's the cheapest option). IN which case you need to go rob CP from elese where in your list, or you make a full khorne battalion. In doing a khorne battalion your not realistically deep striking everything with out also robbing even more CP from else where in your list or bring tax blood letter.s
Alternatively you could not spend CP and spend just straight up points on a rhino or something to throw your berserkers in. Have them move around the table and walk past said deep strike impediments. All the while they are providing a function to your army as if they or thier transport is getting shot the rest of your army is being saved some bit of fire power that is not aimed thier way. In contrast the blood letters are doing nothing at all till they come on the table. If the blood letters try to do the walk up the table then you just have guardsmen that cost almost twice as much and dont benefit from cover, but do ignore rend.
So if you are interested in the best damage out put unit bloodletters do that, but you gotta get them there and no matter what you do they definitely need some investment to be good IE CP and maybe a khorne daemons detachment
Alright you got me there, you do have to invest 2-3CP per Bloodletter unit in order for them to live up to their full potential. It really comes down to a number of factors when list building: Who do you think you'll be facing? How much are CP worth to you? What are the roles of each of your units?
If you're going purely Codex Daemons than you would be better off with Horrors since they can shoot out of deep strike, costing less CP, and maybe mix in some Nurglings to deny alpha strike so you don't have to invest as heavily into screens. There are a lot of different ways to make Codex Daemons work alone and be competitive. My arguments are only really valid when you want to zero in on Khorne and mix Daemons with CSM. This brings up Bloodletters vs Berserkers very quickly since both units are doing the heavy lifting in these kinds of lists. In my case, when you have only a handful of units that are competitive, you notice CP isn't very important outside of the deep strike and 3D6 banner. Two battalions cover this CP cost without issue with a few to spare on either more deep strike or a reroll or two, which is fine.
I'd argue the Bloodletters are doing a whole lot before they come onto the table because your opponent knows they are coming and what they can do. If they extend forward to try and get points or move out of position, Bloodletters will be there next turn to rock their world. The threat that 3x20 Bloodletter units pose can't be taken lightly and positioning has to be on point in the opening turns or else key units are going to get charged.
Again it ultimately comes down to what you value more in your list: CP or points. It's difficult for me to justify bringing multiple units of Berzerkers in Rhinos when I can spend far less points and some CP on Bloodletters.
Which daemons do people find are performing well, specifically Khorne and Nurgle? I see a lot of buzz about the plague toads and bloodletters, interested because I'm thinking of taking a detachment.... also think I'm gonna take a 1k Sons detachment just for their Daemon Prince!
I mwan... I guess, but your opponent still has all of the control on who or what you can fight. I don't personally like that. I like the control of wha5 I fight in my own hands. This is why genestealer cult is kind of meh to me, and I think the genestealer cult have alot more control over who and whst they can charge thanks to either moving d6 or moving 8"+ and advance before charging thier target out of deep strike. They only hit abit softer than the blood letter do, and is say they work out to beable the same in. The form of durability.
Despite all of that the genestealers really don't rate high enough because even with all of thier flexibility your opponent has so much control over where you can go and what you cam charge.
As you have said I'm sure you can make a list where the blood letter are just better, but that requires more than I think I'm interested to do. While the khorne beserkers in my opinion you just throw so in a car and swish em luck. 2 or 3 of those squads 1 should make it into the party. But to each thier own.
If you're playing a melee army, you're giving your opponent tons of control already. The issue you bring up with Genestealers is the same issue Bloodletters run into which is the same issue Berzerkers are going to run into: screening units. At the end of the day the purpose of the melee alpha strike is to cause a disruption and split your opponent's fire while either eliminating the screen or punishing bad deployment. 3x20 Bloodletters accomplish this pretty easily by either dropping them in waves to peel away the screens or dropping them all together to overwhelm.
Your last point doesn't make much sense either. You would rather spend more points on less Berzerkers and hope they make it across the board instead of spending less points on more Bloodletters, investing a little CP, and knowing 100% they are going to make their charge and do something statistically more damage against more potential targets. Even against someone using two layers of screens in front of artillery, multiple waves of Bloodletters will punch holes in their defense and force them to take shift their attention. We can compare points, damage output, and durability all day long but at the end of the day Bloodletters will always get into combat out of deep strike and Berzerkers are an expensive gamble. I don't believe the solution is to pick one, I believe the solution is to pick both.
andysonic1 wrote: If you're playing a melee army, you're giving your opponent tons of control already. The issue you bring up with Genestealers is the same issue Bloodletters run into which is the same issue Berzerkers are going to run into: screening units. At the end of the day the purpose of the melee alpha strike is to cause a disruption and split your opponent's fire while either eliminating the screen or punishing bad deployment. 3x20 Bloodletters accomplish this pretty easily by either dropping them in waves to peel away the screens or dropping them all together to overwhelm.
Your last point doesn't make much sense either. You would rather spend more points on less Berzerkers and hope they make it across the board instead of spending less points on more Bloodletters, investing a little CP, and knowing 100% they are going to make their charge and do something statistically more damage against more potential targets. Even against someone using two layers of screens in front of artillery, multiple waves of Bloodletters will punch holes in their defense and force them to take shift their attention. We can compare points, damage output, and durability all day long but at the end of the day Bloodletters will always get into combat out of deep strike and Berzerkers are an expensive gamble. I don't believe the solution is to pick one, I believe the solution is to pick both.
i dont know my shining spear melee eldar list and my hurt rather melee heavy 3xDP +2x greater daemons list right now kind of can just charge and fight what ever they want. Thats because in the case of the spears they fly and don't care about your screens. Then the DPs also can fly and charge stuff or in the case of the greater daemons they can get closer than 9" away so that the screen can be cleared by my anti chaffe units, and the greater daemons can then charge in. Niether of which the blood letters or genestealer cult can do.
In the case of both genestealer cult and Blood letters they come in and are kind of restricted by being 9" away from enemy models. Thus even if that same turn you clear out the chaffe, that 9" bubble still has to be restricted. meaning if you clear my chaffe on turn 1, turn 2 i can sorta shuffle my line jsut a tiny bit so that you still ahve to respect my 9" bubble. That is sooo much control you give your opponent. You are still basicly a turn too slow to really make the charges you want to make. Genestealers are beter at it becuase they can get closer than 9" but with how random they are that 9" is still a big factor. Where as in the case of the daemons list. My GUO can just walk up his 7" and get in cuddle range of an enemy unit, and then the chaffe in it's way can be removed and allow the GUO to get at the juicy exposed target.
This is the reason the GUO makes the cut in my daemons list and the bloodletters have gotten that boot, and it's because getting them into combat is either too little to late or impossible.
BAsicly your opponent only need to do the smallest of things to react to your blood letters either put throw away units at the perimeter of thier force, or just spread out and then the blood letter bomb is wasted, as it will drop down, not kill enough to make it's points back and then die. The GUO at the very least will require an entire armies worth of focus fire to kill thus providing 'cover' for the rest of my force to get the job done.
I do think you can make an army built around drilling holes in chaffe so your BLs can deep strike and seal the deal. Looking at that winning eldar list how do you deal with all of those ranges and wave serpents parked in your way in a single turn to get at the dark reaper horde in the back corner of the table?? Because you have to kill a good number of rangers and wave serpents to get in there, and mono khorne sorta sucks at taking out both of those units in a timely fashion. Thats my primary concern. As i said my daemons list started out being horrors and flamers kill chaffe and then bloodletters go win the game, but it's very tough to keep alot of army on the table while your bloodletters are just collecting dust waiting for an opportunity to strike. I could easily be convinced by a few battle reports where the bloodletter get nice holes carved out where they can go make khorne happy.
Proper bubble wrap can always defeat a blood letter bomb. But I don't think that the point of a blood letter bomb is to win the whole game all by itself. If it can do that, your opponent is probably a newbie player who doesn't know how to bubble wrap well at all.
The point of the blood letter bomb, is to clear most of the chaff, and still provide an immediate threat that must be dealt with in the turn after. Because if they don't clear those blood letters, after all their chaff has been killed, then the following turn, those blood letters will be charging into something valuable, and by themselves, blood letters are capable enough of doing massive damage to shooty units that historically cower safely behind bubble wrap.
For less than 200 points, to achieve all that, its a good deal. And this is even if the opponent kills off all of your blood letters in the following turn. Because they have to divert some shooting to kill it. And the shooting diverted to kill the bloodletters will not be used to kill your other units.
A blood letter bomb is just the opening move in the game to clear chaff, establish board control, pose an immediate threat, and serve as a bullet magnet and diversion while the rest of your army do their thing (They aren't just sitting there having coffee right?). The blood letter bomb isn't usually the whole basis and strategy of your whole army.
pure demons (any allegiance), has tons of issues dealing with reapers+ranger spam, best idea is mix demons and mortal chaos for oblys and noise marines, you have the punch to hurt waves and kill lot of rangers, that's one of the reason why pure demons didn't get the cut at LVO, too much eldars with reapers and wave around. the only pure demon build which stand a chance is Tz cause it can bring lot of firepower and mobility on the table.
As a person with such an eldar list. I know that one blob of 30 pink horrors spliting is something that would be bery difficult to deal with. Reapers arent too good against hordes even more so they rely on thier ap to thin out said hirde. 30 horror completely just ignores reapers, while putting out 2+ to wound shooting from deep strike that can alittle down squads of reapers quickly. Behind that daemon princes would be pretty untouchable until they make convat, and elite models like dark reapers or vehicles like waves serpents are the bread and butter for daemon princes.
With an early nurgling screen and a handful of brim stones you can deep strike the horror within range to ignore aliatoc and get 2 turn worth of shooting with your horrors. Then that 1nd turn charge with the dps to basicly just end the game. Even with the unit of shining spears that would try to snipe your princes at best they only kill one daemon Prince as they can only leverage thier melee attacks against them. Then the rest of the screen and the other two daemon princes on that same turn ripp the shining spear squad apart as they lack an invulns in. Melee.
For the reasons outlined above I think the best core we have is horrors with lots of reinforcement points and 2 or 3 daemon princes behind them. Then a almost mandatory screen of nnurglings. After that you just add what ever else you think compliments that. Some folks like blood letters or more tzeentch. I personally like the Loc or the GUO as they too stand up against reapers very well.
how a LOC can stand against 15 reapers? explain me? just cause it gets 3++ save? reapers can erase models like Mortarion what makes you think Loc can survive more, maybe just cause can ds
Btw the problem is reapers+waves+rangers, i dont think a playes with 2 working neurons will disembark reapers too early and horrors aren't so good hurting veichles, when you play 3+ then... well....is not that easy at all. i guess a skilled eldar playes has still the upper hand.
orkswubwub wrote: So i Ran a list essentially DG, CSM and Daemon Soup. 3x PBC (spewers), Deamon Prince / 3 x 3 oblits and sorcerer/lord , 20 letters and some plaguebearers with a khorne prince and poxbringer.
His list:
Changling
CHangecaster
-Grimoire
-Staff of Change
30 Pink horros
10 Brims
10 Brims
Daemon Prince of nurgle w/ wings malefic and 2x talons
Typhus
10 cultists
10 cultists
19 poxwalkers
Vortex Aquila Stronghold.
553 points reinforcements
So looking at the list (and not knowing who you are playing against) one may be inclined to take reaper against this list. That was a huge mistake. Everything basically started embarrked in the aquila aside from 30 pinks. First turn was basically either shoot the pinks or the aquila (for those who don't know 30W at 10T) as all characters were bubble wrapped. I made a beginner mistake (trying to remove said bubble wrap and not ancitipating the split) and dropped in some 20 blood letters who failed a 3d6 charge with a roll of 1, 2, 3
Shot pinks with 4++ and didn't accomplish much. Poxwalkers emerged from the aquila (were embarked so essentially all the troops are untargetable). He popped strat, pinks killed letters, grew literally towards my entire force (every model lets him put one two inches away in any direction) and essentialy wrapped around my entire force with poxwalkers. Everything got stuck and there were no eliglbe targets to kill on my turn. The oblits couldnt' shoot the poxwalkers because they had 3-4 units tied in melee (abusing pile in and consolidate to grow into other units, 3 dead model s= 6 inch tendril). Only eliglibe target the entire game was either aquila or the pinks - which if you shoot will only split and make more poxes. He had 9 CP so essentially just made poxes untargetable if he needed.
Obvious tactics are obvious - walkers were daisy chained to typhus to get blades etc. Horrors always by changeling.
Summoned in a blue scribes too somewhere in there to damn my psychic ability to smite anything and stole death hex (no more casts) also happened to roll treason of tzeentch. He accidentally rolled 3 dice for the treason but it was NBD as I was lost as soon as the poxwalkers had everything in melee (end of turn 1 really).
Don't hold me to the exact ranges he was growing his poxwalkers but that is mroe or less how it worked, after getting one unit in melee he was able to get many other units enmeshed as well and then do what he wanted to take secondary points and outman on the primaries. It isn't the kind of list that tables you but prevents you from taking secondaries. Probably a better bet against this kind of list would be to go behind enemy lines, recon, and another that is more individual of wiping out units. Or to save the bloodletters to clean up the poxes after they try to grow towards the force as they only really have a 5+++ to fall back on - it would significantly shrink the primary win condition.
Pinks never dropped below 21 models as all further damage goes to blues and brims - so dakka stands tall - needless to say all of these blues splitting also adds more poxes.
Also - P.S. Aquila can hurt a lot when it wants to =(
This is from memory so probably some errors, happened first day of tournament.
One thing to note - new poxwalkers can only be placed in coherence with another member of the unit which was in existence at the start of the current phase.
Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
agree monoGod usually struggle, or you play mixed demons or better you mix with mortal chaos, take obliterators for heavy thanks and horrors for infantry, then you stand a chance, 9 obly+abbadon+slaanesh stratagem get you sure 1/2 wave bite the dust (depend about what oblys rolls), then horrors can deal with disembarking infantry, still not easy but quite better than just monoGod builds.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
Why would you take the wings off the princes?
The idea is two fold: make them cheaper so you can bring in more units, and deep strike them for 1 CP to get them where you want right away. I have ALWAYS taken my Prince's with Wings, but now that I can deep strike them in I'm not sure it's worth the points. A Skullreaver wielding wingless Prince is going after things that won't be perched on top of buildings. Hordes will take care of things on upper floors better than the Prince as well. You don't lose much movement and for me personally it restricts me to staying near my horde which has always been difficult for me to remember (even though as soon as a Prince sticks his head out it gets lopped off every single time). For melee armies it's worth saving the points and spending the CP, for ranged armies you're better off winged since you'll most likely be on the table.
remember a winged prince can easily get away from dangers and/or move where is more needed, can fly over cheap troops, can attack flyers (no wings no attacks on thos annoying flyers), fly keyword is strong in 8th.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
Why would you take the wings off the princes?
The idea is two fold: make them cheaper so you can bring in more units, and deep strike them for 1 CP to get them where you want right away. I have ALWAYS taken my Prince's with Wings, but now that I can deep strike them in I'm not sure it's worth the points. A Skullreaver wielding wingless Prince is going after things that won't be perched on top of buildings. Hordes will take care of things on upper floors better than the Prince as well. You don't lose much movement and for me personally it restricts me to staying near my horde which has always been difficult for me to remember (even though as soon as a Prince sticks his head out it gets lopped off every single time). For melee armies it's worth saving the points and spending the CP, for ranged armies you're better off winged since you'll most likely be on the table.
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Interesting. I am currently building a mono-Slaanesh army so I suppose the DP is fast enough to keep up. Or I could just DS him in like you've mentioned. I had not seen that the PL would make it only cost 1CP. That makes it seem pretty viable!
blackmage wrote: remember a winged prince can easily get away from dangers and/or move where is more needed, can fly over cheap troops, can attack flyers (no wings no attacks on thos annoying flyers), fly keyword is strong in 8th.
Yeah the ability to attack flyers is pretty gross for melee Princes. It's not really an easy choice to make and heavily depends on the rest of your army.
I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
30 Cultists on the upper level of a building? All 30? On the upper level? Can you take a picture of that next time you see it because that sounds like ether overlapping bases or one huge building.
Either way, infantry can invade that building. If you're using your Daemon Prince to try and fight Chaff, you're wasting his potential.
Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
I am just going to try it both ways and see which way I like the use of better. I already have a dp with wings for tzeentch. My point is there are valid arguments to saving the points and going wingless, depending on your force it can be just as useful without the wings as with. This is one of the few times that I can see both sides being valid on a units options. It's no longer an "auto include".
What's REALLY annoying is that Uraka the Warfiend got a points decrease, making him pretty competitive if you take him and a Skullreaver Prince, but he's still 9PL, instantly negating his relevance since it costs 2CP to drop him in. Hopefully SOMEONE cares enough in March to fix that and put him at 8PL where he belongs. I'd love to drop him and Skullreaver Prince in behind Bloodletters and let them go to work.
If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
30 Cultists on the upper level of a building? All 30? On the upper level? Can you take a picture of that next time you see it because that sounds like ether overlapping bases or one huge building.
Either way, infantry can invade that building. If you're using your Daemon Prince to try and fight Chaff, you're wasting his potential.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
biggest problem is an average tournament game last 3 turn if you drop Bl 2nd turn or 3rd they cant do a lot, btw agree a 1st turn Bl drop usually is a waste, unless you either drop a nice amount of pink horrors/flamers to clean screens.
rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Oh boy some anti-horde that sounds like a great idea let's take 30 Pink Horrors and have them shoot at chaff I bet they kill all of them!
Spoiler:
30 Pink Horrors
19 Bloodletters
Yeah I'm not exactly sure why spending 210+ points on Pink Horrors plus the necessary characters to buff them is magically better than spending 165 points on 20 Bloodletters with Icon and Banner that need no extra support. You spend one extra CP with the Bloodletters. You spend 45+ extra points with the Horrors, plus reserve points for split if you're into that. They end up doing nearly the same amount of offensive work, and clearly the Pink do more defensive work with more investment. As I've said earlier in this thread: it just depends on what is more important to you between points and CP, along with what else you are bringing. There's nothing statistically wrong with throwing Bloodletters at a screening unit to remove it, and then following up the next turn with either your bigger units or even more Bloodletters.
If you want a better argument about what to bring instead of Bloodletters, a closer point comparison would be Flamers. The problem with Flamers is they aren't actually that good against hordes and will require supporting fire.
Spoiler:
So like it or not, for better or for worse, the meta dictates that you will be spending more points than the chaff unit itself in order to remove it. How you do so is completely up to you. The Daemons Codex is very open ended and you can make a lot of different viable lists from it using the models you have on hand. Statistically speaking and when comparing point costs, every god is in a pretty good place.
* As with all mathhammering, there will always be variance on the tabletop. The best way to see how something works is to actually play it.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Your argument is just not that great. Why would I throw my Daemon Prince at 30 cultists, especially if he had wings? Even my 9 attacks Khorne Daemon Prince with double Talons is only doing 9 attacks on the charge. That's a max of 9 dead cultists. You double that (or more) by throwing less points worth of Bloodletters at them. Why would I: A) Risk getting poked to death by Cultists on the swing back (or taking some chip damage), and B) get my tank / character / elite hunter stuck in combat with chaff for multiple turns, when I can spend less to do more and throw him against something he will actually kill or neuter, like a tank being held down by Bloodletters or Flesh Hounds or even just out in the open? Your argument boils down to: if he has wings he can reach them so he should! Could you further explain your argument because from a damage output and points perspective it doesn't make much sense right now.
There is no golden rule of Warhammer. There is no points to CP conversion. How much anything is worth depends completely on your list and you as a player.
cause sometimes you need to do....cultist is an example anything you cant assault cause you have no wings is a problem.
Last tournament i had 1 single nurgling sitting on obj in front of him some poxwalkers he had Mortarion and a wingless prince he needed to charge and kill both units to grab the objective but prince had too few attacks to remove all the poxes so he uses mortarion and kill any single pox but cant assault nurgling cause Dp havent fly and cant fly over the poxes and he lost....btw play as you wish, you are arguing on a piece of equipment costing 24 POINTS are you aware of that? what you can play so decisive with those 24 poiints? If you think play a wingless Dp do it, maybe you right and im wrong maybe ur a skilled player and see things we cant see, good luck.
rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Oh boy some anti-horde that sounds like a great idea let's take 30 Pink Horrors and have them shoot at chaff I bet they kill all of them!
Spoiler:
30 Pink Horrors
19 Bloodletters
Yeah I'm not exactly sure why spending 210+ points on Pink Horrors plus the necessary characters to buff them is magically better than spending 165 points on 20 Bloodletters with Icon and Banner that need no extra support. You spend one extra CP with the Bloodletters. You spend 45+ extra points with the Horrors, plus reserve points for split if you're into that. They end up doing nearly the same amount of offensive work, and clearly the Pink do more defensive work with more investment. As I've said earlier in this thread: it just depends on what is more important to you between points and CP, along with what else you are bringing. There's nothing statistically wrong with throwing Bloodletters at a screening unit to remove it, and then following up the next turn with either your bigger units or even more Bloodletters.
If you want a better argument about what to bring instead of Bloodletters, a closer point comparison would be Flamers. The problem with Flamers is they aren't actually that good against hordes and will require supporting fire.
Spoiler:
So like it or not, for better or for worse, the meta dictates that you will be spending more points than the chaff unit itself in order to remove it. How you do so is completely up to you. The Daemons Codex is very open ended and you can make a lot of different viable lists from it using the models you have on hand. Statistically speaking and when comparing point costs, every god is in a pretty good place.
* As with all mathhammering, there will always be variance on the tabletop. The best way to see how something works is to actually play it.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Your argument is just not that great. Why would I throw my Daemon Prince at 30 cultists, especially if he had wings? Even my 9 attacks Khorne Daemon Prince with double Talons is only doing 9 attacks on the charge. That's a max of 9 dead cultists. You double that (or more) by throwing less points worth of Bloodletters at them. Why would I: A) Risk getting poked to death by Cultists on the swing back (or taking some chip damage), and B) get my tank / character / elite hunter stuck in combat with chaff for multiple turns, when I can spend less to do more and throw him against something he will actually kill or neuter, like a tank being held down by Bloodletters or Flesh Hounds or even just out in the open? Your argument boils down to: if he has wings he can reach them so he should! Could you further explain your argument because from a damage output and points perspective it doesn't make much sense right now.
There is no golden rule of Warhammer. There is no points to CP conversion. How much anything is worth depends completely on your list and you as a player.
I mean try playing with both. Bloodletters AFTER the charge if they don't wipe the unit are severely weakened at lower STR and Attacks. If they do wipe a unit (like 30 cultists) the difference between 4++ and 5++ is huge ecsp with the morale considerations. Also bloodletters are harder to position to charge anything useful (and a 3d6 charge can fail, it happened to me even with reroll a few times).
For Pinks you don't really have to deepstrike them as you aren't as worried about them getting shot off the table. Make the pinks the only thing in your army your opponent can shoot and drop invul strat first turn is very frustrating for opponents who want to alpha you off the table.
Are you playing competitive opponents regularly with your letters? I'm open to learning how to play better. I'd love to hear how you maximize their effectiveness and what your opponent does to counter your drops. I find it hard to "trade up" well with using letters, as they typically fit my list as eliminating bubble wrap but the wrap usually costs less than my letter unit (maybe that is my problem?)
Also I have run prince without wings thinking I was clever - i found the biggest issue is that you put him behind troops to use character lack of targeting but if you are behind any big blob of troops it can be hard to charge or herocially intervene. Also if a flyer goes behind you for line breaker / behind enemy lines having a flying daemon prince is money. It might not be an auto include but from having actually play tested it - i will be staying with wings for the foreseeable future. A chaos lord seems to be better for what the unwinged prince does at 8 inch move and challenges with terrain / models.
The reason pinks are better is that they don't die as fast. Plus I will never use pinks without all 3: herald, warlord re-roll 1s to wound and +1 wound. So they do a ton of damage.
If I use 2-3 squads I'll take a DP too
And ignoring the fact that pinks don't rely on being able to get into base contact / making the charge either. I don't think that biased post disguised as math hammering was enlightening to anyone.
I think there are some very valid point being fleshed out here.
As said blood letters when they hit will most certainly out damage most everything in the game. While pink horror will do very respectable damage at ranged.
The difference is getting the blood letters where they need to go the pink horrors can deep strike and get the job done. The blood letter can also deep strike but they also need access to a clear charge route and abit more cp invest as they need to deep strike and take the banner.
I think pink horrors are in a general since the better unit. Like if you gave me any list with a free 300 points and told me to give some one a daemons unit. I'd probably say a puno horror squad. Simply because even in the blood letter bomb list is love to bring pink horrors as a great waybto clear charge and keep models on the table.
The blood letter are by thier nature more specialized. While these guys are like a nuclear explosion when they hit stuff, they lack abit in the execution. They need long charges and can be blocked by screens. 32mm bases are also no thier friend greatly reducing thier ability to get good surround with thier surprisingly large model count on units with such big bases.
Lastly on this debate pinks have a duel role in being one of the best screens money can by. Split allowing you to pack a whole horde army worth of minis inside of one clown are unit to absorb alot of damage for ypur force.
Ok the case of the dps with wings or jot. Actualy spent a few moments today considering it. It's certainly not a throw away point. However I think the wings are just too important. The threat range increase is just too good and the fact that you don't have to untangle them from your screen is famtastic. On top of this the ability to fly the dps past chaff and up into buildings all to sniff out and snipe character is too great. I thi k dps are one of the better if not out best character hunter optjon. Having access to power mutliwound decent so attacks, and high mobility and fly to sneak past screens. On top of that the dp is an expensive model characters are.a good way to quickly score poi t's toward paying for itself.
i m just testing a bit demons, both Bl and pinks are great, i just found pinks be more versatile, with stratagem they can get 3++ save which make them very durable, split is a nice option too if you can spare some extra points, bl hit hard but usually they are single use and they are easier to deal with, btw for me 30 horrors and 30 Bl and a fluxmaster, if you can afford all 3, works great in ds, they cause troubles at many armies.
In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster Demon Prince 20 Pinks 20 Pinks 10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster Demon Prince 30 Pinks 10 blues or brimstones 10 blues or brimstones
rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Oh boy some anti-horde that sounds like a great idea let's take 30 Pink Horrors and have them shoot at chaff I bet they kill all of them!
Spoiler:
30 Pink Horrors
19 Bloodletters
Yeah I'm not exactly sure why spending 210+ points on Pink Horrors plus the necessary characters to buff them is magically better than spending 165 points on 20 Bloodletters with Icon and Banner that need no extra support. You spend one extra CP with the Bloodletters. You spend 45+ extra points with the Horrors, plus reserve points for split if you're into that. They end up doing nearly the same amount of offensive work, and clearly the Pink do more defensive work with more investment. As I've said earlier in this thread: it just depends on what is more important to you between points and CP, along with what else you are bringing. There's nothing statistically wrong with throwing Bloodletters at a screening unit to remove it, and then following up the next turn with either your bigger units or even more Bloodletters.
If you want a better argument about what to bring instead of Bloodletters, a closer point comparison would be Flamers. The problem with Flamers is they aren't actually that good against hordes and will require supporting fire.
Spoiler:
So like it or not, for better or for worse, the meta dictates that you will be spending more points than the chaff unit itself in order to remove it. How you do so is completely up to you. The Daemons Codex is very open ended and you can make a lot of different viable lists from it using the models you have on hand. Statistically speaking and when comparing point costs, every god is in a pretty good place.
* As with all mathhammering, there will always be variance on the tabletop. The best way to see how something works is to actually play it.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Your argument is just not that great. Why would I throw my Daemon Prince at 30 cultists, especially if he had wings? Even my 9 attacks Khorne Daemon Prince with double Talons is only doing 9 attacks on the charge. That's a max of 9 dead cultists. You double that (or more) by throwing less points worth of Bloodletters at them. Why would I: A) Risk getting poked to death by Cultists on the swing back (or taking some chip damage), and B) get my tank / character / elite hunter stuck in combat with chaff for multiple turns, when I can spend less to do more and throw him against something he will actually kill or neuter, like a tank being held down by Bloodletters or Flesh Hounds or even just out in the open? Your argument boils down to: if he has wings he can reach them so he should! Could you further explain your argument because from a damage output and points perspective it doesn't make much sense right now.
There is no golden rule of Warhammer. There is no points to CP conversion. How much anything is worth depends completely on your list and you as a player.
Not strictly on topic but wheres that mathhammer tool. I really, really want it
Frowny wrote: In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
20 Pinks
20 Pinks
10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
30 Pinks
10 blues or brimstones
10 blues or brimstones
Honestly the question is really how valuable is having a detachment of all Tzeentch daemons - as ideally it would be great to run 2 - x3 nurglings and 1 group of pinks (for competitive ITC - only due to concern for reaper and to deny enemy deep strike / get recon etc.) - casual / Chapter approved agree blues and brims are rocking (also good in compete but you would have to buy-in to the idea of essentially giving up this secondary likely).
Frowny wrote: In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
20 Pinks
20 Pinks
10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
30 Pinks
10 blues or brimstones
10 blues or brimstones
40 pinks sound fine,,, but i hoenstly prefer 1 single blob which can get max advantage by flickering fire and warp surge stratagem, in any case i really prefer play 3x3 nurglings instead of a whole Tz detachment.
Frowny wrote: In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
20 Pinks
20 Pinks
10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
30 Pinks
10 blues or brimstones
10 blues or brimstones
If you can find the space to set aside 100-200 points for reinforcements that 30 man Pink Horrors squad will stay above 20 for a very long time (as you replace with Blues and Brims). Additionally, in ITC formats, that squad will take forever to kill, but can't be ignored, so it probably won't give up the points for Reaper easily and you can maintain it's firepower for a much longer portion of the game. Also, if they're focus firing your Pink Horrors to get them down, I feel like you're already winning in some ways.
blackmage wrote:
40 pinks sound fine,,, but i hoenstly prefer 1 single blob which can get max advantage by flickering fire and warp surge stratagem, in any case i really prefer play 3x3 nurglings instead of a whole Tz detachment.
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
If you can find the space to set aside 100-200 points for reinforcements that 30 man Pink Horrors squad will stay above 20 for a very long time (as you replace with Blues and Brims). Additionally, in ITC formats, that squad will take forever to kill, but can't be ignored, so it probably won't give up the points for Reaper easily and you can maintain it's firepower for a much longer portion of the game. Also, if they're focus firing your Pink Horrors to get them down, I feel like you're already winning in some ways.
i more or less agree with both of these statements. I don't carem ch for a whole tz detachment either not really worth it. Brims are still better than nurglings as a screen, but if i want a screen i think i'd just bring the horror blob and call it a day. while nurgles are about as durable for the points as brimstone are (unless multiple damage weapons are also used), but the nurglings can scout and help rest control over the table. Also itc they don't get out free points because for some reason horde squads have to be nerfed by the mission format.
The 30 man squad is more flexible as you only really have to concentrate your auras and such on them. You can take a banner if your hoping to get some value. The reinforcement points can be reallocated in summoning other units as well if you really want to. The whole thing can deep strike if you want your screen to be more forward.
mmimzie wrote: The 30 man squad is more flexible as you only really have to concentrate your auras and such on them. You can take a banner if your hoping to get some value. The reinforcement points can be reallocated in summoning other units as well if you really want to. The whole thing can deep strike if you want your screen to be more forward.
Additionally, if you can squeeze in a DG detachment and Pox Walkers you can do the whole Cloud of Flies/Dead Walk Again combo with the Pinks and build up your Pox Walker unit as Pink Horrors are dying. This combo was used very well at LVO, the guy just missed the top 8 with it (among other tricks of course).
Sorry to interrupt, but just picked up some Tzeentch stuff for a combination of Sigmar/Quest, and coincidentally a more 40k-based group I’m with have started a slow-grow campaign. From a quick skim of the discussions, can I assume that if I carried the Daemons over to 40k I’d need a more ... ecumenical approach?
Pilum wrote: Sorry to interrupt, but just picked up some Tzeentch stuff for a combination of Sigmar/Quest, and coincidentally a more 40k-based group I’m with have started a slow-grow campaign. From a quick skim of the discussions, can I assume that if I carried the Daemons over to 40k I’d need a more ... ecumenical approach?
Yes, multiple factions will make your list more flexible. If you're not inclined to venture outside the Daemons codex you're probably still in good shape, but Daemons currently benefit heavily from the inclusion of CSM and/or DG units (and I assume shortly from TS units).
Pilum wrote: Sorry to interrupt, but just picked up some Tzeentch stuff for a combination of Sigmar/Quest, and coincidentally a more 40k-based group I’m with have started a slow-grow campaign. From a quick skim of the discussions, can I assume that if I carried the Daemons over to 40k I’d need a more ... ecumenical approach?
Welcome soon to be greater daemon!!! May you serve the dark lord well and long before you are reabsorbed into thier greatness.
Anywho, you can most certain wield a mono daemons army into combat. However you really limit yourself quite considerably in options and play styles.
If you wish to serve a single chaos god I recommend you also include chaos space marine that also serve that God like death guard, world eaters, thousand sons, or emperors children (hope I got the right). This 2ill give you the desire levels of list variety.
If you wish to just play chaps daemons of strong recommend you run atleqst two gods as mono god lack variety in how you play. If you are dead set on playing mono god than I think nurgle and tzneetch have the most viable tools for.the job. Nurgle play up the syngery hammer really aggressively taking lots of bugs to make plague bearers super strong. While tzneetch is abit hordie and put out lots of shooting. Tzneetch is probably the only horde style army that is actualy manageable to spot as split means you don't have to move millions of models.
Anyway. With all that info. How do you think you'd wanna play your daemons??
Thanks chaps. The mixing is not a big deal really - more options is good and it’ll be different baddies for Quest/general RP after all! - it just would have been convenient for both systems.
Playstyle, mmimzie... well, that really is the $million question isn’t it? My other army is Craftworld Eldar and ideally I’d like something that plays sufficiently differently to keep interest (though if nothing else the painting is doing that!) although I appreciate the irony in then starting with what sounds like a comparatively fragile, psychic-heavy force! I like the idea, perhaps, of the comparative simplicity of just getting stuck in, though obviously there will be an element of “suck it and see” as I get games in.
I’ve always liked the ‘gotcha’ idea behind Horrors, so having that solid ‘horde-ish’ core there does have a certain appeal.
Sorry for the delay folks. It has been a crazy week since I got back from LVO. Here is a basic rundown of how the list operated for me.
The primary function of the list was to give my opponent very little "good" targets to engage. The main units were obviously the Poxwalkers and the 30 man Pink Horrors. The ITC missions made me keep the Poxwalkers at 19 so as to not give up too much to Reaper.
The Poxwalkers would deploy in the Vortex Aquila turn 1 along with most of the characters. The Horrors would bubble wrap the building and the cultists and small horror squads would hide as best as possible until the first turn.
The first game turn would be pretty huge as the Horrors would move forward and position themselves to get some shots, while the Poxwalkers would advance out of the building and mix in as close to the Horrors as possible. They would pop both the Cloud of Flies and Dead Walk Again stratagems. This would make it so that my opponent would have 2 genuine options for targets. The building, or the Horrors. The building being T10 with 30 wounds made it fairly resilient, and if they killed the Horrors they would just split down and create Poxwalkers while they died. The key to learning the list was learning how to maximize placing Horrors and Poxwalkers in a way to not block your own movement and maximize your spread, as you can only place models within range of models that were on the table at the start of the phase.
Then in the psychic phase you would cast as many buff powers as you can on both the Horrors and the Poxwalkers and let them engage in their relevant phases. The vortex would most likely try to shoot either an easy kill if I needed it to get me a kill for the turn, or a threat (like a 10 man Reaper squad). I would often use the Gaze of Fate power in the psychic phase to get a reroll to reroll the number of shots if needed. The thought was pretty simple in that if I kill 1 thing, and my opponent kills none, then it still gets me the bonus.
I would then slowly spread into the table with Horrors and Poxwalkers and use the mass objective secured to control as much of the table as possible while denying my opponent any kills as long as possible.
That was the general gist of the list.
Feel free to ask any questions, I will try to answer as best I can.
I'm unsure why it was ruled the cloud of flies stratagem can be used after a unit has moved out of a transport, it seems worded to specifically disallow that.
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
So I have seen a lot of people talk about the pox walkers / pink horror combo, but I have yet to see anyone talk about a counter to this. How does someone counter such an army? Mass anti - infantry fire and simply try and wipe through moral?
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Okay so you have 30 pinks. You come, you shoot, next turn they got charged by for example 2 rhinos. What next? They stuck in melee forever?
next turn they fall back and aquila if needed annilate them or Dp/thypus poxwalkers charge in and remove at least 1 of them
Azuza001 wrote: So I have seen a lot of people talk about the pox walkers / pink horror combo, but I have yet to see anyone talk about a counter to this. How does someone counter such an army? Mass anti - infantry fire and simply try and wipe through moral?
Daemons morale is pretty punishing.
I actually play Pox walkers, and even I think the splitting+pox walkers thing is just evil.
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Okay so you have 30 pinks. You come, you shoot, next turn they got charged by for example 2 rhinos. What next? They stuck in melee forever?
They fall back and you kill the rhinos with other stuff?
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
ah yes thx, now i know who you are
I hope that is not necessarily a bad thing? lol
it is not..may i ask you an opinion after ur LVO experience? what would you play if you want play chaos soup list with alpha legion+demons and or Dg for example? im interested to know the opinion of an "almost" top 8 player, thanks a lot.. I would like to try ur list but i dont own the fortification not enough poxwalkers
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
Hmm. I wouldn’t build an all-comers list on the assumption that I could negotiate that every time. Nor will I be buying anything on the assumption that both ‘walking dead in transports’ or ‘infecting dead DAEMONs’ will survive the next FAQ. But more power to you for pulling off this terrifying farm! Did you get that ruling ahead of time from the TO, or did you argue the case when you arrived?
TwitchyReaper wrote: The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
But the effect occurs when the stratagem is used. If the poxwalkers can't replace their Curse of the Walking Pox ability at that time, nothing happens. It doesn't just continuously reapply over and over throughout the game until it can affect the unit. That's even assuming they can be 'selected' in the first place, which is some dodgy rule bending in the first place.
Is there a reason to word it "at the beginning of your movement phase" rather than "during" as some other stratagems are worded other than preventing its use on poxwalkers embarked in transports?
mmimzie wrote: It doesn't matter if they're being targeted or not the transport rules only care about abilities with a range.
Not quite, here's the relevant wording in the rulebook; "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."
The last sentence pertains to when a unit with an 'aura' effect is embarked.
mmimzie wrote: It doesn't matter if they're being targeted or not the transport rules only care about abilities with a range.
Not quite, here's the relevant wording in the rulebook; "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."
The last sentence pertains to when a unit with an 'aura' effect is embarked.
fair enough. so it does seem to work work at all.as the targeting verbage doesn't matter. SO i'd say the judge or judges made a bad call here.
orkswubwub wrote: So i Ran a list essentially DG, CSM and Daemon Soup. 3x PBC (spewers), Deamon Prince / 3 x 3 oblits and sorcerer/lord , 20 letters and some plaguebearers with a khorne prince and poxbringer.
His list:
Changling
CHangecaster
-Grimoire
-Staff of Change
30 Pink horros
10 Brims
10 Brims
Daemon Prince of nurgle w/ wings malefic and 2x talons
Typhus
10 cultists
10 cultists
19 poxwalkers
Vortex Aquila Stronghold.
553 points reinforcements
So looking at the list (and not knowing who you are playing against) one may be inclined to take reaper against this list. That was a huge mistake. Everything basically started embarrked in the aquila aside from 30 pinks. First turn was basically either shoot the pinks or the aquila (for those who don't know 30W at 10T) as all characters were bubble wrapped. I made a beginner mistake (trying to remove said bubble wrap and not ancitipating the split) and dropped in some 20 blood letters who failed a 3d6 charge with a roll of 1, 2, 3
Shot pinks with 4++ and didn't accomplish much. Poxwalkers emerged from the aquila (were embarked so essentially all the troops are untargetable). He popped strat, pinks killed letters, grew literally towards my entire force (every model lets him put one two inches away in any direction) and essentialy wrapped around my entire force with poxwalkers. Everything got stuck and there were no eliglbe targets to kill on my turn. The oblits couldnt' shoot the poxwalkers because they had 3-4 units tied in melee (abusing pile in and consolidate to grow into other units, 3 dead model s= 6 inch tendril). Only eliglibe target the entire game was either aquila or the pinks - which if you shoot will only split and make more poxes. He had 9 CP so essentially just made poxes untargetable if he needed.
Obvious tactics are obvious - walkers were daisy chained to typhus to get blades etc. Horrors always by changeling.
Summoned in a blue scribes too somewhere in there to damn my psychic ability to smite anything and stole death hex (no more casts) also happened to roll treason of tzeentch. He accidentally rolled 3 dice for the treason but it was NBD as I was lost as soon as the poxwalkers had everything in melee (end of turn 1 really).
Don't hold me to the exact ranges he was growing his poxwalkers but that is mroe or less how it worked, after getting one unit in melee he was able to get many other units enmeshed as well and then do what he wanted to take secondary points and outman on the primaries. It isn't the kind of list that tables you but prevents you from taking secondaries. Probably a better bet against this kind of list would be to go behind enemy lines, recon, and another that is more individual of wiping out units. Or to save the bloodletters to clean up the poxes after they try to grow towards the force as they only really have a 5+++ to fall back on - it would significantly shrink the primary win condition.
Pinks never dropped below 21 models as all further damage goes to blues and brims - so dakka stands tall - needless to say all of these blues splitting also adds more poxes.
Also - P.S. Aquila can hurt a lot when it wants to =(
This is from memory so probably some errors, happened first day of tournament.
Did he chain out new models to new areas? Like keep putting new models further and further out to surround your force? Because that's completely illegal. Poxwalkers and Pinks and stuff like that can only add new models within coherency of models that were present at the start of the phase. So you could in theory kill models in psychic phase within coherency of models present start of that phase, then in shooting phase add models within coherency at start of shooting phase, and in assault phase same thing. But if you added the models all in one phase, they can't go very far out from where original squad was.
Did he chain out new models to new areas? Like keep putting new models further and further out to surround your force? Because that's completely illegal. Poxwalkers and Pinks and stuff like that can only add new models within coherency of models that were present at the start of the phase. So you could in theory kill models in psychic phase within coherency of models present start of that phase, then in shooting phase add models within coherency at start of shooting phase, and in assault phase same thing. But if you added the models all in one phase, they can't go very far out from where original squad was.
Wait, where does it say that? I couldn't find anything about the "current phase" requirement for Pink Horrors. Chaining looks perfectly legal to me.
Did he chain out new models to new areas? Like keep putting new models further and further out to surround your force? Because that's completely illegal. Poxwalkers and Pinks and stuff like that can only add new models within coherency of models that were present at the start of the phase. So you could in theory kill models in psychic phase within coherency of models present start of that phase, then in shooting phase add models within coherency at start of shooting phase, and in assault phase same thing. But if you added the models all in one phase, they can't go very far out from where original squad was.
Wait, where does it say that? I couldn't find anything about the "current phase" requirement for Pink Horrors. Chaining looks perfectly legal to me.
I think it was an FAQ that changed that. It was a nerf to the tactic of chaining Poxwalkers forward via Alpha Legion cultists.
Something I hadn't thought of recently with the new book, is looking at the daemon lords again. I know that most everyone here will think they are absolutely terrible outside apoc for fun. With the new greater daemon rules though, are they even worthwhile then?
Look at scabbie, he has +2T, breath attack ++4 invul, +4w an aura and flat 5 dmg.
However I could bring 2 GUO for his price and still have points leftover. I love the model, but it's getting tricky to want to put him on the table when I have a points restriction. I mean, at 10k, sure, who cares, but at 3-6k... eeeh.
Why Gift of Chaos and not Warptime? Those foot-slogging Possessed are going to have to roll well on their Advances to make contact. And a 6” damage power on a Palanquin is going to struggle to find a target.
Who’s going to be popping out of the Warp? And how large are the drone and possessed units?
whembly wrote: Can someone set me straight on Hellforged artefacts?
In the codex it seems the requirement is that the Warlord is a Daemon and that only non-named deamon characters can access Hellforged artefacts...
Could I do the following:
Tz Deamon Prince = Impossible
Nurgle DP = Corruption
Khorne DP = Armor of Scorn
Without paying additional points or CP? (I think all options are 10pts)??
Could I give the Khorne DP both Armour of Scorn AND Skullreaver? Or, is this a situation that I'd have to spend a CP?
I don't quite understand your question. You get one free relic with your warlord, and can pay CP for up to two more per faction using stratagems.
No-one can be given more than one relic.
whembly wrote: Can someone set me straight on Hellforged artefacts?
In the codex it seems the requirement is that the Warlord is a Daemon and that only non-named deamon characters can access Hellforged artefacts...
Could I do the following:
Tz Deamon Prince = Impossible
Nurgle DP = Corruption
Khorne DP = Armor of Scorn
Without paying additional points or CP? (I think all options are 10pts)??
Could I give the Khorne DP both Armour of Scorn AND Skullreaver? Or, is this a situation that I'd have to spend a CP?
I don't quite understand your question. You get one free relic with your warlord, and can pay CP for up to two more per faction using stratagems.
No-one can be given more than one relic.
The idea is simple, the Tsons stuff except the prince and the changecaster hang out back and become a firing point.
The deamonettes / pinks / flamers / furies are my coverage against chargers / alpha strike. If I lose them I am not too worried, they are there to give me some numbers.
But the real work / threat comes from 2 deamon princes both with default 3++ saves and the 30 bloodletters with skulltaker. Deep strike them in where I need them to and use the bloodletters as a sudo screen to keep the deamon princes as not the closest target for shooting.
Any thoughts? Or am I putting to much work on the big guys and should scrap the invulnerable brothers idea? (BTW, reason I am only using 10 pinks is because that's what I own. Otherwise I think 20 pinks deep striking instead of the 30 bloodletters would be a smarter move since they could kill the chaff and let the dp's get in easier.
Is there any way to run Rotigus well? I kind of like the model and he comes out point for point in a similar tankiness to mortarion - Nurgle seems to be able to do no wrong with psychic abilities (-1 tough, -1 hit, heal d3, nurgle rot, etc.) so the casts seem useful and somewhere just under half the time an extra mortal is popping out for psychic (maybe 1 per turn on two casts?). The flamer seems good (even better with nurgle locus) but range 7 is difficult to manage... At the end of the day I can't think of another way of running him besides deep strike - but he will inevitably fail the charge (or be stuck charging chaffe) and get blown of the table by dark reaper spam, commander spam, etc.
At just over 300 points it doesn't seem debilitating even if he gets blown off - should be a reasonable damage sink (18 wounds, 7T 5++ with a 5+++). - the 2 CP on deepstrike is rough for a CP hungry army - should he not deepstrike and sit in the back with miasma and get healed by a poxbringer? It just seems so tasty to run nurgle rot on him though....
Anyone have any luck maximizing use of the model? How did you do it?
The idea is simple, the Tsons stuff except the prince and the changecaster hang out back and become a firing point.
The deamonettes / pinks / flamers / furies are my coverage against chargers / alpha strike. If I lose them I am not too worried, they are there to give me some numbers.
But the real work / threat comes from 2 deamon princes both with default 3++ saves and the 30 bloodletters with skulltaker. Deep strike them in where I need them to and use the bloodletters as a sudo screen to keep the deamon princes as not the closest target for shooting.
Any thoughts? Or am I putting to much work on the big guys and should scrap the invulnerable brothers idea? (BTW, reason I am only using 10 pinks is because that's what I own. Otherwise I think 20 pinks deep striking instead of the 30 bloodletters would be a smarter move since they could kill the chaff and let the dp's get in easier.
I belive that you'd have to pay CP to put the relic on the Daemons Daemon Prince as the thousand son one is your warlord therefore the free one is a thousand sons one
Hi guys. TS player here, was looking at adding some Tzeentch Daemons to my army. Exalted flamers really caught my eye, The Blue flames really help to shore up my anti tank abilities, the Pink Flames also help fill a slot I have little access to (TS basically have access to S4 AP-2 and mortal wounds when it comes to shooting).
My main questions are
1.) Should I summon them or bring them in a detachment?
2.) Are Exalted Flamers on Discs worth it?
3.) Are there any perticular Combos I should be Intrested in?
orkswubwub wrote: Is there any way to run Rotigus well? I kind of like the model and he comes out point for point in a similar tankiness to mortarion - Nurgle seems to be able to do no wrong with psychic abilities (-1 tough, -1 hit, heal d3, nurgle rot, etc.) so the casts seem useful and somewhere just under half the time an extra mortal is popping out for psychic (maybe 1 per turn on two casts?). The flamer seems good (even better with nurgle locus) but range 7 is difficult to manage... At the end of the day I can't think of another way of running him besides deep strike - but he will inevitably fail the charge (or be stuck charging chaffe) and get blown of the table by dark reaper spam, commander spam, etc.
At just over 300 points it doesn't seem debilitating even if he gets blown off - should be a reasonable damage sink (18 wounds, 7T 5++ with a 5+++). - the 2 CP on deepstrike is rough for a CP hungry army - should he not deepstrike and sit in the back with miasma and get healed by a poxbringer? It just seems so tasty to run nurgle rot on him though....
Anyone have any luck maximizing use of the model? How did you do it?
Rotigus is a beast and a half. Well worth it over a standard GUO unless you are using the bell with multi wound model unit spam. I've been running a 2 GUO list with rotigus and a sword/flail GUO. After finally remembering everything rotigus has going for him, he is a steal. His staff is pretty terrifying in CC, then he has the D6 mouth attacks to chomp on medium infantry, and the D6 more nurgling attacks to add a little extra oomph. With his mortal wounds ability, have him smite/plague wind every turn to vomit mortal wounds at your opponents. His breath attack is scary enough to make even dreadnoughts think twice about assaulting him.
I highly, highly suggest deep striking him. If you run mono nurgle, you should always deep strike your GUO. 7" move will just have him shot off the table. DS an if you are super worried, the +1 invul strat. I've had them fired at by more than their fair share of lascannons and they have lived. Running 2 is costly, but no one has enough firepower to take 2 in one turn. I've been bringing 2 battalions and only have 3CP to play with, generally burning them all turn 1 or 2 on re-rolling charges from DS, or a stratagem if its needed. Fleshy abundance and the D3 heal strat combined will make a GUO frustratingly tough for an opponent.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Hi guys. TS player here, was looking at adding some Tzeentch Daemons to my army. Exalted flamers really caught my eye, The Blue flames really help to shore up my anti tank abilities, the Pink Flames also help fill a slot I have little access to (TS basically have access to S4 AP-2 and mortal wounds when it comes to shooting).
My main questions are
1.) Should I summon them or bring them in a detachment?
2.) Are Exalted Flamers on Discs worth it?
3.) Are there any perticular Combos I should be Intrested in?
1: If you've got a static gunline element, then there's a lot to be said for having enough reinforcement points to summon. The range buff on Flamers makes them a great thing to drop in front of a horde that's about to make contact - and their speed means they'll probably do something else after stamping out that fire. Exalted Flamers' Pink Fire is more of a side arm, to punish units that try to charge your Blue Fire shooter, and is nowhere near as efficient at dealing with hordes as massed Flamers. Horrors are nice to bring on to fill a hole that's been made by enemy shooting, and can deal with a horde at longer distance than the various Flamers. (Especially if you roll a 12+ for the Summon.)
That said, all kinds of Flamer are also highly mobile, and Screamers are... viable, now. So, you might benefit from a detachment of gribblies starting the game on the table with a mounted Herald of some stripe, and making the most of their high movement. A Vanguard of three EFs and a mounted Herald is certainly a nice asset, though I'd be inclined to add a unit of regular Flamers to screen these Characters.
2: They don't get that option. There's Heralds on Discs, which is a good mobility upgrade, and EFs on Chariots, which completely change their role. Can still hide behind units, can be a bully in melee, can survive a charge from a unit that survived Pink Fire - and leave them with a bloody nose as it flies away. Definitely viable, I'd say.
3: TS Sorcerers on Discs and Daemon Princes and Magnus himself, hanging out with a Fateskimmer or Fluxmaster (or, in a pinch, an Exalted Flamer) popping Locus of Conjuration. Wham, re-roll all your failed casts. Especially helpful if you're using the experimental 'Smite gets less reliable' rules.
3: TS Sorcerers on Discs and Daemon Princes and Magnus himself, hanging out with a Fateskimmer or Fluxmaster (or, in a pinch, an Exalted Flamer) popping Locus of Conjuration. Wham, re-roll all your failed casts. Especially helpful if you're using the experimental 'Smite gets less reliable' rules.
waht do you think of the fate skimmer, every time i look at it i feel like a daemon prince is kinda just better. However i think the model is super cool so i sorta really wanna use it <.< hoping you can give me a good excuse haha.
orkswubwub wrote: Is there any way to run Rotigus well? I kind of like the model and he comes out point for point in a similar tankiness to mortarion - Nurgle seems to be able to do no wrong with psychic abilities (-1 tough, -1 hit, heal d3, nurgle rot, etc.) so the casts seem useful and somewhere just under half the time an extra mortal is popping out for psychic (maybe 1 per turn on two casts?). The flamer seems good (even better with nurgle locus) but range 7 is difficult to manage... At the end of the day I can't think of another way of running him besides deep strike - but he will inevitably fail the charge (or be stuck charging chaffe) and get blown of the table by dark reaper spam, commander spam, etc.
At just over 300 points it doesn't seem debilitating even if he gets blown off - should be a reasonable damage sink (18 wounds, 7T 5++ with a 5+++). - the 2 CP on deepstrike is rough for a CP hungry army - should he not deepstrike and sit in the back with miasma and get healed by a poxbringer? It just seems so tasty to run nurgle rot on him though....
Anyone have any luck maximizing use of the model? How did you do it?
Rotigus is a beast and a half. Well worth it over a standard GUO unless you are using the bell with multi wound model unit spam. I've been running a 2 GUO list with rotigus and a sword/flail GUO. After finally remembering everything rotigus has going for him, he is a steal. His staff is pretty terrifying in CC, then he has the D6 mouth attacks to chomp on medium infantry, and the D6 more nurgling attacks to add a little extra oomph. With his mortal wounds ability, have him smite/plague wind every turn to vomit mortal wounds at your opponents. His breath attack is scary enough to make even dreadnoughts think twice about assaulting him.
I highly, highly suggest deep striking him. If you run mono nurgle, you should always deep strike your GUO. 7" move will just have him shot off the table. DS an if you are super worried, the +1 invul strat. I've had them fired at by more than their fair share of lascannons and they have lived. Running 2 is costly, but no one has enough firepower to take 2 in one turn. I've been bringing 2 battalions and only have 3CP to play with, generally burning them all turn 1 or 2 on re-rolling charges from DS, or a stratagem if its needed. Fleshy abundance and the D3 heal strat combined will make a GUO frustratingly tough for an opponent.
I think it really depends on what your targeting. againsta tank the GUO is quitye alot better, while against smaller targets rotigus is abit better. Apart from that the GUO is a better mage with the bile blade. Making miasma go off on a 4 against armies where you really need it is gonna be worth alot more than a wound you only take 2/3rds of the time. While getting virulence blessing off on a 6 will do more damage than the flail wound against multi damage targets. when fighting hordes bonuses to nurgles rot and stream of corruption geting bonuses to cast work out even better. Lastly fleshy abundence syngerizes with a deep striking GUO as he can cut himself, cast miama, and heal up the wound if he took one.
Rotigus does abit more damage against hordes with his mouth and ranged weapon, but the damage he does more to hordes isn't worth his price tag. Other units will do that damage considerably more effeciently and will beable to start puting out damage sooner (mono nurgle plague drones, or daemons as a whole bloodletters/horrors/flamers).
So my money is on the GUO with either sword (if not mono nurgle) or bell (if mono nurgle with lots of beast/nurglings/drones). Then almost always i'd take the bileblade as the flail even in the best case scenarios is kinda vestigile.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Hi guys. TS player here, was looking at adding some Tzeentch Daemons to my army. Exalted flamers really caught my eye, The Blue flames really help to shore up my anti tank abilities, the Pink Flames also help fill a slot I have little access to (TS basically have access to S4 AP-2 and mortal wounds when it comes to shooting).
My main questions are
1.) Should I summon them or bring them in a detachment?
2.) Are Exalted Flamers on Discs worth it?
3.) Are there any perticular Combos I should be Intrested in?
i'd split the different and bring a unit of 20 or 30 spliting horrors depending on your army composition. Then you could use those spliting reinforcement points to also summon with.
3: TS Sorcerers on Discs and Daemon Princes and Magnus himself, hanging out with a Fateskimmer or Fluxmaster (or, in a pinch, an Exalted Flamer) popping Locus of Conjuration. Wham, re-roll all your failed casts. Especially helpful if you're using the experimental 'Smite gets less reliable' rules.
waht do you think of the fate skimmer, every time i look at it i feel like a daemon prince is kinda just better. However i think the model is super cool so i sorta really wanna use it <.< hoping you can give me a good excuse haha.
TSDP:
- M12, FLY
- 7 x WS2 S7 AP2 D2 attack
- T6 W8 3+/4++
- Know and cast 2 spells, eighteen to choose from
- use TS stratagems
- Reroll 1’s aura affects all TS and Tzeentch Daemon units
- Can benefit from Warptime and Diabolical Strength
CD DP:
- M12, FLY
- 7 x WS2 S7 AP2 D2 attack
- T6 W8 3+/4++
- Know and cast 1 spell, six to choose from
- use CD Stratagems - re-rolling failed spells aura
- Reroll 1’s aura affects Tzeentch Daemon units
FS:
- M14, FLY
- 6 x WS4 S6 AP3 D2 attack + 3 x WS4 S3(4) AP1 D1 self-healing attacks
- T5 W8 4++
- Know 2 and cast 1 spell, six to choose from, also 24” Smite
- use CD Stratagems - re-rolling failed spells aura
- +1S aura affects Tzeentch Daemon units, including shooting attacks of Flamer, EF, and Pink Horrors
- 1 to enemy psychic powers within 9”
If you’re taking a DP, it wants to be TS - Fateskimmer absolutely has a role to play as the dedicated Daemon support leader in your Daemon Detachment. Large footprint means it can spread the +1S love around. Direct a squadron of Screamers to tear apart a light to medium vehicle, super-charge the shooting of some Flamers or Horrors, tag team with a Thousand Sons Daemon Prince to make sure it casts what it needs to cast. If you get the opportunity, it can take down an enemy support character, but be careful not to get revenge killed.
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re taking a DP, it wants to be TS - Fateskimmer absolutely has a role to play as the dedicated Daemon support leader in your Daemon Detachment. Large footprint means it can spread the +1S love around. Direct a squadron of Screamers to tear apart a light to medium vehicle, super-charge the shooting of some Flamers or Horrors, tag team with a Thousand Sons Daemon Prince to make sure it casts what it needs to cast. If you get the opportunity, it can take down an enemy support character, but be careful not to get revenge killed.
I love the TSDP, enough that I keep thinking that there must be something good in the TS codex that's not a goat. However, I keep coming back to Daemonspark (and to a lesser extent Flickering Flames), it's currently the only way to get any sort of wound re-roll on shooting attacks that Chaos has, but perhaps I'm getting tunnel vision.
Has the omission of the reduced smite power for fewer than 10 pink horrors in the Thousand Sons Horrors entry been discussed at all? I'm trying to figure out if this was intentionally left out, considering how close together the Thousand Sons and Chaos Daemons books were released. Do they think they underpowered blues and brimstones and are reverting some of it back, or was it just missed on accident?
Here's the sentence which is lacking from the Horror entry in the Thousand Sons codex.
"In addition, if the unit manifest the Smite psychic power whilst it contains less than 10 Pink Horror models, it only inflicts 1 mortal wound rather than D3."
I'm not sure why gw needs to create these types of disparities between units in separate codex books that should be all but identical in data sheet stats. The Thousand Sons daemon prince is just bad design when it outclasses the Chaos Daemon version for the exact same cost.
Unless these types of issues are addressed in upcoming FAQ/errata updates, it starts to fall back into codex creep.
Mchagen wrote: Has the omission of the reduced smite power for fewer than 10 pink horrors in the Thousand Sons Horrors entry been discussed at all? I'm trying to figure out if this was intentionally left out, considering how close together the Thousand Sons and Chaos Daemons books were released. Do they think they underpowered blues and brimstones and are reverting some of it back, or was it just missed on accident?
Here's the sentence which is lacking from the Horror entry in the Thousand Sons codex.
"In addition, if the unit manifest the Smite psychic power whilst it contains less than 10 Pink Horror models, it only inflicts 1 mortal wound rather than D3."
I'm not sure why gw needs to create these types of disparities between units in separate codex books that should be all but identical in data sheet stats. The Thousand Sons daemon prince is just bad design when it outclasses the Chaos Daemon version for the exact same cost.
Unless these types of issues are addressed in upcoming FAQ/errata updates, it starts to fall back into codex creep.
Mchagen wrote: Has the omission of the reduced smite power for fewer than 10 pink horrors in the Thousand Sons Horrors entry been discussed at all? I'm trying to figure out if this was intentionally left out, considering how close together the Thousand Sons and Chaos Daemons books were released. Do they think they underpowered blues and brimstones and are reverting some of it back, or was it just missed on accident?
Here's the sentence which is lacking from the Horror entry in the Thousand Sons codex.
"In addition, if the unit manifest the Smite psychic power whilst it contains less than 10 Pink Horror models, it only inflicts 1 mortal wound rather than D3."
I'm not sure why gw needs to create these types of disparities between units in separate codex books that should be all but identical in data sheet stats. The Thousand Sons daemon prince is just bad design when it outclasses the Chaos Daemon version for the exact same cost.
Unless these types of issues are addressed in upcoming FAQ/errata updates, it starts to fall back into codex creep.
My money is on a faq fix there.
This kind of doesn't even need faq you could just use the Tsons horrors and call it a day.
TSDP:
- M12, FLY
- 7 x WS2 S7 AP2 D2 attack
- T6 W8 3+/4++
- Know and cast 2 spells, eighteen to choose from
- use TS stratagems
- Reroll 1’s aura affects all TS and Tzeentch Daemon units
- Can benefit from Warptime and Diabolical Strength
CD DP:
- M12, FLY
- 7 x WS2 S7 AP2 D2 attack
- T6 W8 3+/4++
- Know and cast 1 spell, six to choose from
- use CD Stratagems - re-rolling failed spells aura
- Reroll 1’s aura affects Tzeentch Daemon units
FS:
- M14, FLY
- 6 x WS4 S6 AP3 D2 attack + 3 x WS4 S3(4) AP1 D1 self-healing attacks
- T5 W8 4++
- Know 2 and cast 1 spell, six to choose from, also 24” Smite
- use CD Stratagems - re-rolling failed spells aura
- +1S aura affects Tzeentch Daemon units, including shooting attacks of Flamer, EF, and Pink Horrors
- 1 to enemy psychic powers within 9”
If you’re taking a DP, it wants to be TS - Fateskimmer absolutely has a role to play as the dedicated Daemon support leader in your Daemon Detachment. Large footprint means it can spread the +1S love around. Direct a squadron of Screamers to tear apart a light to medium vehicle, super-charge the shooting of some Flamers or Horrors, tag team with a Thousand Sons Daemon Prince to make sure it casts what it needs to cast. If you get the opportunity, it can take down an enemy support character, but be careful not to get revenge killed.
the fate seer can't use the stratagem to help the DP, is thier someother way it helps??
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Hi guys. TS player here, was looking at adding some Tzeentch Daemons to my army. Exalted flamers really caught my eye, The Blue flames really help to shore up my anti tank abilities, the Pink Flames also help fill a slot I have little access to (TS basically have access to S4 AP-2 and mortal wounds when it comes to shooting).
My main questions are
1.) Should I summon them or bring them in a detachment?
2.) Are Exalted Flamers on Discs worth it?
3.) Are there any perticular Combos I should be Intrested in?
1: If you've got a static gunline element, then there's a lot to be said for having enough reinforcement points to summon. The range buff on Flamers makes them a great thing to drop in front of a horde that's about to make contact - and their speed means they'll probably do something else after stamping out that fire. Exalted Flamers' Pink Fire is more of a side arm, to punish units that try to charge your Blue Fire shooter, and is nowhere near as efficient at dealing with hordes as massed Flamers. Horrors are nice to bring on to fill a hole that's been made by enemy shooting, and can deal with a horde at longer distance than the various Flamers. (Especially if you roll a 12+ for the Summon.)
That said, all kinds of Flamer are also highly mobile, and Screamers are... viable, now. So, you might benefit from a detachment of gribblies starting the game on the table with a mounted Herald of some stripe, and making the most of their high movement. A Vanguard of three EFs and a mounted Herald is certainly a nice asset, though I'd be inclined to add a unit of regular Flamers to screen these Characters.
2: They don't get that option. There's Heralds on Discs, which is a good mobility upgrade, and EFs on Chariots, which completely change their role. Can still hide behind units, can be a bully in melee, can survive a charge from a unit that survived Pink Fire - and leave them with a bloody nose as it flies away. Definitely viable, I'd say.
3: TS Sorcerers on Discs and Daemon Princes and Magnus himself, hanging out with a Fateskimmer or Fluxmaster (or, in a pinch, an Exalted Flamer) popping Locus of Conjuration. Wham, re-roll all your failed casts. Especially helpful if you're using the experimental 'Smite gets less reliable' rules.
The main idea was to run the Exalted Flamers behind the Rubrics forcing my melee focused enemies to either charge both and end up with additional flamer shots hitting on overwatch, or if they dont include the Exalted flamer in the charge he can do a heroic intervention and gets a free turn to beat on the enemy while the Rubrics take most of the hits.
Ranged armies I would summon the Chariots instead getting the extra movement to start killing things turn 2 at the latest.
I was also wondering about summoning are you allowed to bring any upgrades on the summoned unit?
@mmimzie - Chaos Daemons Stratagems cannot be played on Heretic Astartes models, but the auras they generate (Loci) can affect any proximate models with the DAEMON and DEITY keyword. Though I take the point that there’ll be some opponents who’ll refuse this interpretation, best to check with TO’s if you’re in that scene.
I've recently acquired a variety of Slaanesh daemons, and I'm thinking of creating a detachment to supplement my Emperor's Children. I know that the Slaanesh daemons aren't the highest-regarded in the new codex, but I was hoping to get some advice on what to use/how to use them?
I currently have access to about 35 daemonettes, 15 seekers, the masque of slaanesh, and an unassembled exalted seeker chariot. I know that the mount options were removed for Slaaneshi heralds in the codex, but I was thinking of running the index version and putting a herald on the chariot.
seekers with a herald on steed/chariot with locus have an obscene threat range 12 +2d6 +2d6 charge. I prefer the smaller chariot herald as it can hide in units and doesn't have a degrading statline.
Porphyrius wrote: I've recently acquired a variety of Slaanesh daemons, and I'm thinking of creating a detachment to supplement my Emperor's Children. I know that the Slaanesh daemons aren't the highest-regarded in the new codex, but I was hoping to get some advice on what to use/how to use them?
I currently have access to about 35 daemonettes, 15 seekers, the masque of slaanesh, and an unassembled exalted seeker chariot. I know that the mount options were removed for Slaaneshi heralds in the codex, but I was thinking of running the index version and putting a herald on the chariot.
Can anyone give me some advice? Thanks!
I assembled an Exalted Seeker Chariot and regretted it. Would much rather have, say, a Seeker and a Flayer. When I do field my ESC, it’s as the Heavy Support variant and not the Herald - who has so many W that every big gun with LOS can take a shot. Seeker and Seeker Chariot heralds hit the spot for Locus coverage.
I’ll mention Fiends, as whilst they are very squishy they are also an absolute game-changer if they can engage something that can’t easily stomp them. If a single Fiend tags a Land Raider, it’s basically out of the game until something else gets involved. Excellent as a combo with a high damage unit - I held a Knight in combat with a DP for three rounds, forcing it to stay and take its beating. Titanfall!
With what you’ve got? There’s easily an Outriders detachment, there, with plenty of options - Seekers are quite capable as a DS unit if they get Locus coverage. This will eat into CP that you’re probably already spending heavily on shooting; you could squeeze a Battalion out of this as well, but you’d probably want one more box of Daemonettes to have at least one large unit of them that can cause some damage.
Thanks for the tips so far! Running a regular chariot rather than an exalted definitely makes sense, I'd totally forgotten about the ability to target it even though it's a character. Luckily it's unassembled, so that's no problem. What psychic powers are good on Heralds? I was thinking Hysterical Frenzy, but I'm not sure if there are obviously-better options.
What's the right size to run units of Seekers? Are they better as MSU, or larger ones?
I totally agree about the daemonette units, the benefit for having 20+ is too good not to take advantage of. I'd been thinking of doing a unit of 25 and another of 10, and expanding as I find some good deals in the swap shop/ebay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
operkoi wrote: seekers with a herald on steed/chariot with locus have an obscene threat range 12 +2d6 +2d6 charge. I prefer the smaller chariot herald as it can hide in units and doesn't have a degrading statline.
I think I must be missing something regarding the range of seekers; from the codex, it looks like they move 14 +d6 advance (+1 if they have an instrument) +2d6 charge (+1 with instrument). What allows them to move 2d6 when advancing?
I prefer the reliability of Symphony and Phantasmagoria. When/if Delightful Agonies gets errata'd to be same as the CSM version, I'll be interested in that, too. TBH I mostly Smite with my Heralds, Slaaneshi powers are most situational stuff
lindsay40k wrote: I prefer the reliability of Symphony and Phantasmagoria. When/if Delightful Agonies gets errata'd to be same as the CSM version, I'll be interested in that, too. TBH I mostly Smite with my Heralds, Slaaneshi powers are most situational stuff
I highly doubt that will happen. They should have changed the name of the power for sure, but there is already a 5+ DR daemon right there in the codex. Most t3 models only ever get a 6+ fnp. All the CSM units are more expensive, and they are ASTARTES not some weak Slaaneshi cheerleaders. It makes sense that they become more resilient.
Porphyrius wrote: Thanks for the tips so far? Running a regular chariot rather than an exalted definitely makes sense, I'd totally forgotten about the ability to target it even though it's a character. Luckily it's unassembled, so that's no problem. What psychic powers are good on Heralds? I was thinking Hysterical Frenzy, but I'm not sure if there are obviously-better options.
What's the right size to run units of Seekers? Are they better as MSU, or larger ones?
I totally agree about the daemonette units, the benefit for having 20+ is too good not to take advantage of. I'd been thinking of doing a unit of 25 and another of 10, and expanding as I find some good deals in the swap shop/ebay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
operkoi wrote: seekers with a herald on steed/chariot with locus have an obscene threat range 12 +2d6 +2d6 charge. I prefer the smaller chariot herald as it can hide in units and doesn't have a degrading statline.
I think I must be missing something regarding the range of seekers; from the codex, it looks like they move 14 +d6 advance (+1 if they have an instrument) +2d6 charge (+1 with instrument). What allows them to move 2d6 when advancing?
Units of 10 seekers are ideal. 10 is large enough you can lose a few models but still effective in combat. Yet 10 unit size is small enough a bad morale test doesn't hurt too badly. 20 size units are too unwieldy to run on the table because of base size and terrain.
Porphyrius wrote: Thanks for the tips so far? Running a regular chariot rather than an exalted definitely makes sense, I'd totally forgotten about the ability to target it even though it's a character. Luckily it's unassembled, so that's no problem. What psychic powers are good on Heralds? I was thinking Hysterical Frenzy, but I'm not sure if there are obviously-better options.
What's the right size to run units of Seekers? Are they better as MSU, or larger ones?
I totally agree about the daemonette units, the benefit for having 20+ is too good not to take advantage of. I'd been thinking of doing a unit of 25 and another of 10, and expanding as I find some good deals in the swap shop/ebay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
operkoi wrote: seekers with a herald on steed/chariot with locus have an obscene threat range 12 +2d6 +2d6 charge. I prefer the smaller chariot herald as it can hide in units and doesn't have a degrading statline.
I think I must be missing something regarding the range of seekers; from the codex, it looks like they move 14 +d6 advance (+1 if they have an instrument) +2d6 charge (+1 with instrument). What allows them to move 2d6 when advancing?
Units of 10 seekers are ideal. 10 is large enough you can lose a few models but still effective in combat. Yet 10 unit size is small enough a bad morale test doesn't hurt too badly. 20 size units are too unwieldy to run on the table because of base size and terrain.
Would running squads of 5 be a purely terrible idea? I definitely understand that larger squads would be better, but I don't have the models. I suppose in essence what I'm asking is, would I be better running 3x5 seekers in an outrider detachment for the CP, or should I consider running a larger squad-at least for the time being-in a patrol detachment and giving up the CP because the smaller units are just not worth it?
lindsay40k wrote: What do we reckon is the mass of Nurgle Daemons that make Epidemius worth it?
the problerm with epi isn't so muich about worth... its more a issue with the game. killing stuff turn 1 and 2 is already so important. where epidemius doesn't really tun on until turn 3 and by then the winner as been decided. So he's kind of a win more model, andn ot the big swing model you'd want him to be.
Porphyrius wrote: Thanks for the tips so far? Running a regular chariot rather than an exalted definitely makes sense, I'd totally forgotten about the ability to target it even though it's a character. Luckily it's unassembled, so that's no problem. What psychic powers are good on Heralds? I was thinking Hysterical Frenzy, but I'm not sure if there are obviously-better options.
What's the right size to run units of Seekers? Are they better as MSU, or larger ones?
I totally agree about the daemonette units, the benefit for having 20+ is too good not to take advantage of. I'd been thinking of doing a unit of 25 and another of 10, and expanding as I find some good deals in the swap shop/ebay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
operkoi wrote: seekers with a herald on steed/chariot with locus have an obscene threat range 12 +2d6 +2d6 charge. I prefer the smaller chariot herald as it can hide in units and doesn't have a degrading statline.
I think I must be missing something regarding the range of seekers; from the codex, it looks like they move 14 +d6 advance (+1 if they have an instrument) +2d6 charge (+1 with instrument). What allows them to move 2d6 when advancing?
Units of 10 seekers are ideal. 10 is large enough you can lose a few models but still effective in combat. Yet 10 unit size is small enough a bad morale test doesn't hurt too badly. 20 size units are too unwieldy to run on the table because of base size and terrain.
Would running squads of 5 be a purely terrible idea? I definitely understand that larger squads would be better, but I don't have the models. I suppose in essence what I'm asking is, would I be better running 3x5 seekers in an outrider detachment for the CP, or should I consider running a larger squad-at least for the time being-in a patrol detachment and giving up the CP because the smaller units are just not worth it?
My normal army is 6x10 seekers, 3 steed heralds, 2 princes, and the masque.
If you can get all 5 into combat that is great but from my experience that is rare to get into combat at full strength. Slaanesh Daemons are very fragile and vulnerable to any shooting attack.
Personally aside from harassing or tying up vehicles, 5 seekers won't be able to do much. I would just run as a 15x or 10x + 5x. The bigger deal is having a herald to get the claws to s4 and to give the slaanesh locus.
It's not that expensive, and I can build several ways around it to fill in the rest of my army, depending on whether I want to stay mono slaanesh or bring in other gods. If I stay mono slaanesh, I've found the most success with daemon princes, seekers, and one unit of fiends, just three, that I can deepstrike if need be to tie up something.
People get terrified of 60 daemonettes dropping in front of them. I usually hold one unit in the back for board control, but may rush them forward too. The seekers are best flanking up the sides, using terrain, and trying to stay out of line of sight first turn, ready to strike second turn smaller units. Big units are super hard to hide and die so easily, I can't justify their points. I usually just run 5. Just what I've found to be useful.
I think daemonettes are best with a Herald and a daemonprince in their midst. They are one of the hardesthitting units in the game, and often underestimated until too late. One trick I've found to be useful is present a unit right in the opponents face. It has to be dealt with. Give it plus 1 invul from shooting, and the spell with a 6+++, and often they will absorb so much firepower, that the rest of the assaulting forces arrive mostly intact.
I haven't tried slaanesh chariots, as I don't have them. I'm curious how others use them.
I do plan to use a CSM daemon prince with Intoxicating Elixir (+1 strength and attack), the Diabolic Strength power (+2 strength and +1 attack), and Stimulated by Pain (+1 attack per wound suffered, up to 3) in the same list as my daemon detachment. I figure he should be perfect to provide buffs to both elements of the army and do some nasty damage in combat.
lindsay40k wrote: What do we reckon is the mass of Nurgle Daemons that make Epidemius worth it?
To me, epidemius is an all or nothing model. Don't bring him if you are doing mono god, because the chances of missing out on the tally are too great. Bringing along non chaos daemons units can make the tally really impressive. Oblits are great for the turn 1 tally, bloat drones having S-user weapons makes for a very nice buff.
I just learned from another thread that the exalted chariot kit can be turned into one regular chariot as well as a hellflayer, which definitely helps to fill out an outrider detachment. I'm thinking of a Herald on Chariot, the Masque, 30 Daemonettes, 1x10 Seekers, 1x5 Seekers, and a Hellflayer. With Instruments/Icons/etc this comes to a little over 800 points; how does this sound for a detachment supplemented with Noise Marines, Obliterators, some plasma Bikers, a Daemon Prince, and Lucius the Eternal?
So I need abit of help figuring how to change up my daemons list or maybe I shouldny. It currently contains a Loc and a GUO and it performs very well. It has both ties and beat the eldar dark reaper list from LVO in a tournament this weekend.
Not gonna go too much into the list as this is more a tactics form, but I'll go find it in. The other forum and provide a link if y'all care to take a gander.
Anyway. Like I said it has two greater daemons. It also has 3 daemon princes. The daemon princes are sort of the lower point?? Thwy are very goos but they tend to crumble the turn or two after they charge as there just doesn't feel like there isnt much of a way to keep them safe from enemy shooting while also having the Dps go after.important targets.
For instance one DP rocks the skullreaver. He trades up quite well beable to one shot most stuff he charges, but afterward isn't too hard for theoppinent to angle shooting and kill him. I could wait till turn 3 for the pink horror swarm to move up and provide more protect, but that makes it play to slow for tournaments. Similar problems are had with my nurgle deathguard DP. That DP takes blades of putrifaction and gets buffed with virulence blessing, and so he also sorta trades up quite easily.
So I have a few idea, but maybe you guys hav3 some better ideas??
1. A blood thirster, insensate replaces 2 of the daemon princes. I could deep strike in a blood thirster. This takes warp surge from me, but it gives me another big guy. I can give him armor of scorn to keep him safe. In ITC kingslayer does exist, but you can only king slayer one unit so once you bring one big guy you don't get further punished by bringing more. The damage out put is better than two dps at full wounds and better than one when he starts getting low. Plus he has the variable weapon.
Down side is he kinda shakes up the list alot as my pink horror screen starts to be abit pointless as a screen as they are only really protecting against turn 1 charges???
2. Replace the pink horror screen with plague drones. Plague drones are tough and fast. They can better keep up with the Dps instead of deep striking they can just fly up with them. They are for the points much tougher than the horror squad is. No one ever takes reaper against me as they know it's really easy for me to deny, but taking the plague drones would remove any thoughts of reaper being a realistic option for my opponent. Lastly, for benefits it will give me some more cp as The pinks require morale check protection.
The down sides are that the plague drones make a much worse melee screen as few models make them abit more porous. Dropping the pinks takes away my ability to score first blood/first strike (ITC old school), as the pinks were my consistent way of scoring that. Q
3. Por que no los dos, I could do both. Taking the blood thirster and plague drones. Benefit is I have the power and benefits of the blood thirster, and the plague drones can move up as a screen. We also sure up the weakness of low CP freeing me up to have 4 CP to use on stuff like warp surge. Downside is plague drones still remain abit of a poor screen when compared to pinks and I lose first blood potential.
TLDR: -2dp for blood thirst - pinks for plague drones, - pinks and dps for blood thirster and plague drones.
im actually trying a list with just 8cp (im forced to use demon battalion+chaos patrol and added Abbadon for extra cp's,only), im undecided if is worth play 30 bl and 30 horrors (costing me a total of 5 cp to ds both of them) or just stay stick with only horrors and maybe 6 flamers or play something else like noises marines or flesh hounds to replace CaC i get with letters, but in any case noise marines are cp hungry too.
mmimzie wrote: So I need abit of help figuring how to change up my daemons list or maybe I shouldny. It currently contains a Loc and a GUO and it performs very well. It has both ties and beat the eldar dark reaper list from LVO in a tournament this weekend.
Not gonna go too much into the list as this is more a tactics form, but I'll go find it in. The other forum and provide a link if y'all care to take a gander.
Anyway. Like I said it has two greater daemons. It also has 3 daemon princes. The daemon princes are sort of the lower point?? Thwy are very goos but they tend to crumble the turn or two after they charge as there just doesn't feel like there isnt much of a way to keep them safe from enemy shooting while also having the Dps go after.important targets.
For instance one DP rocks the skullreaver. He trades up quite well beable to one shot most stuff he charges, but afterward isn't too hard for theoppinent to angle shooting and kill him. I could wait till turn 3 for the pink horror swarm to move up and provide more protect, but that makes it play to slow for tournaments. Similar problems are had with my nurgle deathguard DP. That DP takes blades of putrifaction and gets buffed with virulence blessing, and so he also sorta trades up quite easily.
So I have a few idea, but maybe you guys hav3 some better ideas??
1. A blood thirster, insensate replaces 2 of the daemon princes. I could deep strike in a blood thirster. This takes warp surge from me, but it gives me another big guy. I can give him armor of scorn to keep him safe. In ITC kingslayer does exist, but you can only king slayer one unit so once you bring one big guy you don't get further punished by bringing more. The damage out put is better than two dps at full wounds and better than one when he starts getting low. Plus he has the variable weapon.
Down side is he kinda shakes up the list alot as my pink horror screen starts to be abit pointless as a screen as they are only really protecting against turn 1 charges???
2. Replace the pink horror screen with plague drones. Plague drones are tough and fast. They can better keep up with the Dps instead of deep striking they can just fly up with them. They are for the points much tougher than the horror squad is. No one ever takes reaper against me as they know it's really easy for me to deny, but taking the plague drones would remove any thoughts of reaper being a realistic option for my opponent. Lastly, for benefits it will give me some more cp as The pinks require morale check protection.
The down sides are that the plague drones make a much worse melee screen as few models make them abit more porous. Dropping the pinks takes away my ability to score first blood/first strike (ITC old school), as the pinks were my consistent way of scoring that. Q
3. Por que no los dos, I could do both. Taking the blood thirster and plague drones. Benefit is I have the power and benefits of the blood thirster, and the plague drones can move up as a screen. We also sure up the weakness of low CP freeing me up to have 4 CP to use on stuff like warp surge. Downside is plague drones still remain abit of a poor screen when compared to pinks and I lose first blood potential.
TLDR: -2dp for blood thirst - pinks for plague drones, - pinks and dps for blood thirster and plague drones.
Thanks for any input
You may consider adding a changeling in - the 6+++ with the LoC set-up is decent - also buffs the horror screen
lindsay40k wrote: What do we reckon is the mass of Nurgle Daemons that make Epidemius worth it?
To me, epidemius is an all or nothing model. Don't bring him if you are doing mono god, because the chances of missing out on the tally are too great. Bringing along non chaos daemons units can make the tally really impressive. Oblits are great for the turn 1 tally, bloat drones having S-user weapons makes for a very nice buff.
Typo check: surely you meant to have a "not" in there?
Noob looking for advice. I'm starting a daemon army for 8th edition. I've been playing for about 5+ years now. I'm really leaning to a mono-khorne army. How well do mono armies do? It doesn't have to be super competitive. Any tips would be great.
I already have 1 herald on Jug, 2blood throwns/skullcannons, 10 blood letters, and 3 blood crushers.
lindsay40k wrote: What do we reckon is the mass of Nurgle Daemons that make Epidemius worth it?
the problerm with epi isn't so muich about worth... its more a issue with the game. killing stuff turn 1 and 2 is already so important. where epidemius doesn't really tun on until turn 3 and by then the winner as been decided. So he's kind of a win more model, andn ot the big swing model you'd want him to be.
I totally disagree with this. I have tried some variations for epi list and all I have to say is that almost all games I get 5-7 tally turn 3. Almost turn 1 for 2 kills. I use plaguebearer bombs at least 9 nurgle oblits.
@Glitcha - Mono Chaos Daemons of Khorne might struggle a bit. It won’t be easy to cover all the bases and also have enough Command Points to play all the dirty tricks we like to spring.
Mono units with the Khorne and Daemon keywords? That’s another story. A Spearhead of Obliterators led by a Daemon Prince, a Vanguard of Decimators led by a Juggerlord - they’ll hit hard, and can all benefit from the auras of your Heralds and Bloodthirsters, and can play things like Veterans of the Long War.
lindsay40k wrote: @Glitcha - Mono Chaos Daemons of Khorne might struggle a bit. It won’t be easy to cover all the bases and also have enough Command Points to play all the dirty tricks we like to spring.
Mono units with the Khorne and Daemon keywords? That’s another story. A Spearhead of Obliterators led by a Daemon Prince, a Vanguard of Decimators led by a Juggerlord - they’ll hit hard, and can all benefit from the auras of your Heralds and Bloodthirsters, and can play things like Veterans of the Long War.
I'm thinking about having Skullcannons for range support. Just 3 of them.
mono korne is nearly unplayable in competitive, if you dont have any efficienr way to remove cheap screens your precious letters slam into cultists, brimstones, nurglings imperial guard guards men ecc... and then obliterated by fire and countercharge, you need something to remove screens and engage something worth , imho. Korne works great with Tzeentch, horrors and/or flamers in 1st wave clean up screens then backed up by letters.
Monokhorne does have the advantage that it can deep strike bomb reasonably well. You can drop 3x20 Bloodletters + 1 Herald for 4CP. Using the Herald to reroll charges.
you cand drop 60 letters but if you cant wipe out screens you do nothing with them they charge and kill chaffs, you can easily face lists with 90 cultists (sometimes fearless so you forced to kill all 40 of them in a single swing), 30-40 brimstones, you would face dangerous gunlines (think about charge 30 horrors for 90 shots or 40 cultists for 80 shots) lot of IG guardsmen, they deny you any key charge, letters are fragile when they are shooted back or charged and cant fight first, that's what i meant
I guess a mix of melee and shoot is needed to be more competitive.
blackmage wrote: you cand drop 60 letters but if you cant wipe out screens you do nothing with them they charge and kill chaffs, you can easily face lists with 90 cultists (sometimes fearless so you forced to kill all 40 of them in a single swing), 30-40 brimstones, you should face dangerous gunlines (think about charge 30 horrors for 90 shots or 40 cultists for 80 shots) lot of IG guardsmen, they deny you any interesting charge, letters are fragile when they are shooted back or charged and cant fight first, that's what i meant
I guess a mix of melee and shoot is needed to be more competitive.
I'm beginning to dislike screenhammer. It seems most of all of my lists begin with a bucketload of brimstones, Even my Khorne lists.
blackmage wrote: you cand drop 60 letters but if you cant wipe out screens you do nothing with them they charge and kill chaffs, you can easily face lists with 90 cultists (sometimes fearless so you forced to kill all 40 of them in a single swing), 30-40 brimstones, you should face dangerous gunlines (think about charge 30 horrors for 90 shots or 40 cultists for 80 shots) lot of IG guardsmen, they deny you any interesting charge, letters are fragile when they are shooted back or charged and cant fight first, that's what i meant
I guess a mix of melee and shoot is needed to be more competitive.
I'm beginning to dislike screenhammer. It seems most of all of my lists begin with a bucketload of brimstones, Even my Khorne lists.
it's the way they shaped the game.. when you have tons of alpha strikes units, what else you can do?
For 130 points extra your group will be able to sustain a minimum of 50 wounds (before saves) before going below 20.
. Otherwise I would probably have them in larger squads. I will work on it. I could do 2-3 much larger squads but I was reading Daemonettes do well in 
