Mr.Church13 wrote: I'm beginning to dislike screenhammer. It seems most of all of my lists begin with a bucketload of brimstones, Even my Khorne lists.
It's either that or try counting on vehicles to protect troops (which at least gets your drop count down) or deep strike as much of your army as you possibly can and hide the rest.
Youbdont need to really screen all that crazy. Nurglings get you most of the way there. Beast of nurgle can also do a pretty great job as body guard getting to intervene quite eqsily.
Punk horrors as a screen are a great shooting force that is hard to remoge.
From there outing your units inside of fortifications or transport is another option. Either way you need to put some expert into defending yourself otherwise you and your opponent should just agree to shovel models toward eachother all day and hope for the best.
Looking at older editions it was all shooting. Where ever one just set up models and rolled dice all game. Taking the stationary wound counters off the table. Some times folks even had nobel wound counters...
The way it works not shooting kills screens, screens stop melee, and melee stops shooting. So it had abit of a game there and abit of back and forth you can play.
Rydria wrote: I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?
They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.
Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.
Rydria wrote: I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?
They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.
Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.
That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.
Rydria wrote: I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?
They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.
Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.
That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.
Rumor is Fulgrim is coming at the forefront of a Slaanesh resurgence in both AoS and 40k later this year. Plus the upcoming March big FAQ may shake up the meta. I would hold off on getting too down in the dumps about it.
I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.
Rydria wrote: I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?
They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.
Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.
That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.
Rumor is Fulgrim is coming at the forefront of a Slaanesh resurgence in both AoS and 40k later this year. Plus the upcoming March big FAQ may shake up the meta. I would hold off on getting too down in the dumps about it.
I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.
For the record I don’t think they’re trying to remove him. They can’t do that without a huge backlash. But perpetual back burner yeah. I’d say Slannesh is pretty much already there. I mean they removed the herald on chariot and didn’t even bother to give a #Trademarkable name to the Slannesh herald.
Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.
Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPSGUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby
blackmage wrote: mono korne is nearly unplayable in competitive, if you dont have any efficienr way to remove cheap screens your precious letters slam into cultists, brimstones, nurglings imperial guard guards men ecc... and then obliterated by fire and countercharge, you need something to remove screens and engage something worth , imho. Korne works great with Tzeentch, horrors and/or flamers in 1st wave clean up screens then backed up by letters.
I know its a little expensive, but I plan on using hounds as screen unit as my characters move up the board.
Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.
Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPSGUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby
So basically what you’re saying is don’t play Daemons at all. Just play Guard or Eldar like every single other player in the game currently. Got it.
Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.
Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPSGUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby
So basically what you’re saying is don’t play Daemons at all. Just play Guard or Eldar like every single other player in the game currently. Got it.
Reads to me that much like the Eldar book we've got a few strong options and the rest are lackluster. If you want to build competitively you've got a very limited pool to pull from.
Conclusions:
Pinks dump all over flamers vs screens (EVEN at -1 to hit which shouldn't happen as the -1 to hit is usually within 12'')
Bloodletters dump all over flamers against everything else
Both of them are also more durable than flamers(except letters vs pure anti-horde).
Which, sadly leads me to say: flamers are bad. Sadly. If you're running mono-tzeentch- sure, go for it.
All chariots are still bad.
Screamers are still bad.
Greater daemons are still bad - just take Skullreaver DP instead.
Nurgle conclusions: Plaguebearers(Icon), Nurglings, 3 types of heralds.
DPSGUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with. Bell GUO is just a bullet magnet that dies turn 1-2 and frankly isn't durable at all for his points.
Beasts are just worse Plaguebearers.
Plague Drones are questionable. You already have deepstrike and Nurglings to get where you want. But they're not bad so you might just run them anyway for utility. With the tree, they do have 22,5''+ threat range. Which is not too shabby
Very interesting math-hammer. Any intersection of the two charts on the best units of damage and survivability?
Mathammer is inaccurate as it is (as it doesn't account for movement, base size, positioning bla bla bla). Making a 1 number score to value units would make it even more inaccurate on the one thing its good at
blackmage wrote: mono korne is nearly unplayable in competitive, if you dont have any efficienr way to remove cheap screens your precious letters slam into cultists, brimstones, nurglings imperial guard guards men ecc... and then obliterated by fire and countercharge, you need something to remove screens and engage something worth , imho. Korne works great with Tzeentch, horrors and/or flamers in 1st wave clean up screens then backed up by letters.
I know its a little expensive, but I plan on using hounds as screen unit as my characters move up the board.
Hounds are a great screen and are actually well worth their 15 points per model price. When I take 20 they end up doing a lot of work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding the mathhammer: pretty much confirming what I already knew about the units. Hopefully you don't have to redo the entire chart in 2-3 weeks LOL
andysonic1 wrote: I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.
I agree, they'll be back, after they've been washed in the family-friendly waters of Ponyland. They'll return as duelists and perfectionists rather than perverts and hedonists.
It was not my intention to imply that GW is removing them, simply sterilizing them.
andysonic1 wrote: I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.
I agree, they'll be back, after they've been washed in the family-friendly waters of Ponyland. They'll return as duelists and perfectionists rather than perverts and hedonists.
It was not my intention to imply that GW is removing them, simply sterilizing them.
Probably not, since both the CSM and Daemons books revel in the lewd aspect of the Emp Children and Slaanesh, constantly talking about pleasure, debauchery, and perversion. The Daemon models have already been toned down once, future models may have their boobs covered up, but they're still the same pleasure focused army they've always been. GW isn't going to go back and rewrite books that already double down on the Lord of Pleasure.
Rydria wrote: I've been out of the game for awhile, how is mono-slaanesh daemons in the current codex ?
They're in there and they're not too terrible, but to me they're in a weird place where with the exception of the Fiend of Slannesh Khorne does everything they can do except better.
Unfortunately they seem to be left in the dust as GW tries to casually move away from them without actually having to admit they're moving away form them. So I wouldn't expect any Slannesh love in the near or far future.
That is a shame I was looking forward to the codex as everything felt over costed in the index by a few points.
Rumor is Fulgrim is coming at the forefront of a Slaanesh resurgence in both AoS and 40k later this year. Plus the upcoming March big FAQ may shake up the meta. I would hold off on getting too down in the dumps about it.
I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.
For the record I don’t think they’re trying to remove him. They can’t do that without a huge backlash. But perpetual back burner yeah. I’d say Slannesh is pretty much already there. I mean they removed the herald on chariot and didn’t even bother to give a #Trademarkable name to the Slannesh herald.
Maybe they just decided that Herald was really only an appropriate title for the slaanesh HQ. All the tzeentch heralds aren't really heralding Tzeentch they're just doing weird scheming things. Khorne heralds are really just doing their skullhunting/bloodletting thang. Nurgle heralds are kind of heralding nurgle but they're more tallying and sloppiting and whatever else they're doing.
But if your job is to yell "Slaanesh is coming" every time they are?
That, my friend, is a full time position right there. Someone's gonna have to yell that OFTEN. So often that it's no wonder none of them have any time to maintain their chariots.
Slaanesh is the lore catalyst for the Daughters of Khaine upcoming war scroll for Age of Sigmar. I think that is a good indication that GW isn't getting rid of Slaanesh in near future as they just tend to ignore things until the fan base moves on.
andysonic1 wrote: The Daemon models have already been toned down once, future models may have their boobs covered up...
Which is a hilarious level for what is acceptable in a game with flayed humans for clothes, spiked head trophies and Chainswords & drills for weapons.
I'd agree Slaneesh will get their turn. In addition to rage above comments, Daemonettes are still on 25 mm bases whereas bloodletters / pinkies and plaguebearers are on 32 mm now.
Huh, that's kind of...odd that they're still being shipped on the smaller bases. Either GW wants them on the smaller bases as a slight buff to them, or they're waiting for a remodeling.
For mono Slaanesh, competitive units your only choices are Daemon Prince, the Masque, Herald on Foot or Steed, Seekers, and Daemonettes. The other units are too fragile or too expensive, outside of friendly games. I would even argue that Daemonettes are too expensive compared to the other troop daemons but we have no other option for troops.
For tournaments, mass Seekers is the only list composition that works for me. Most deployment layouts let you get a turn 1 charge, with average advance and charge, rolls. The Masque now buffing foot Heralds, Chariots, and Seekers, gives her a lot of utility combined with the Symphony of Pain psychic power. By mitigating the fragile nature of Slaanesh daemons by getting a -2 to be hit. You don't need to be able to kill vehicles rather just base them to remove their shooting.
As a list, the big problem with Slaanesh daemons is that they are somewhat fast (Eldar and Genestealers are faster) but there isn't enough punch to make up for their fragility. Against MEQ without a Herald, you are just fishing for 5+ wounds.
Fiends for me at least, fall in the bucket of too expensive at 46pts a pop. If they were like 30pts I would use mine group more often. Anyone who knows what they do will just gun them down before they get into charge range.
rvd1ofakind wrote: pdated my charts and.
DPSGUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with.
Your missing a few things on the number here in my opinion. The whole point of the guo is either the bell holder who you support with warp surge and miasma making it pretty unlikable by most meta armies in a single turn from across the table.
Or
You bring the double bile set up as a deep striking threat. Bileblade makes it the most reliable nurgle caster getting off spells like miasma/fleshy/virulence blessing/nurgle rot as you see fit. The flail can go in the trash along with the rotigus vomit. The damage output on both of those are so useless. If you kill 1 or two marines bug woop coming from a 300 or model.
The whole point of the best stick great unclean ones is to lay down the hurt on other big stuff. In that department the GUO is pretty much king. While base he's not as strong with each buff he starts to stride leaps and bounds over rotigus. Virulence blessing, poxbringer, and sloppity bile piper turn the GUO into a killing machine for big stuff. While being a durable model for stay multiple turns getting off his more reliable miasmas.
rvd1ofakind wrote: pdated my charts and.
DPSGUO is just a bad Rotigus, who is bad to begin with.
Your missing a few things on the number here in my opinion. The whole point of the guo is either the bell holder who you support with warp surge and miasma making it pretty unlikable by most meta armies in a single turn from across the table.
Or
You bring the double bile set up as a deep striking threat. Bileblade makes it the most reliable nurgle caster getting off spells like miasma/fleshy/virulence blessing/nurgle rot as you see fit. The flail can go in the trash along with the rotigus vomit. The damage output on both of those are so useless. If you kill 1 or two marines bug woop coming from a 300 or model.
The whole point of the best stick great unclean ones is to lay down the hurt on other big stuff. In that department the GUO is pretty much king. While base he's not as strong with each buff he starts to stride leaps and bounds over rotigus. Virulence blessing, poxbringer, and sloppity bile piper turn the GUO into a killing machine for big stuff. While being a durable model for stay multiple turns getting off his more reliable miasmas.
First of all, props to rvd1ofakind, these charts are amazing. I wonder how this changes if rotigus / GUO get miasma off? The strength here is that they are able to drop in T1 without getting shot. I also can see this type of model baiting an opponent to shoot even with the -1 invul strat in place. Agree naked with no buffs is quite squishy for cost.
Damage appears to be shooting only so may not take into consideration nurgle rot / spells which are probably where this model shines. Or even the extra damage from smite etc. There are small things like crushing bulk which are nice too anticipating the model is able to live one turn.
Well so the bell GPU can't really deep strike. Most the damage that goes out is turn 1 and if you deep strike the bell guy you miss out on the bell healing because i believe it goes off at the start of the turn or movement phase. Where the guo is quite very vulnerable.
Both rotigus and the sword guo want to deep strike, miasma up. Either casting miasma on themselves or having some one else far away cast it on her. Then they either want to cast virulence blessing on themselves and get stuck in or be the biggest thing that can cast nurgle rot. In terms of spells though the GUO with bile blade is more reliable and since the flail damage is so inconsequential on such a big model, is argue the bile made is the better equipment.
mmimzie wrote: Well so the bell GPU can't really deep strike. Most the damage that goes out is turn 1 and if you deep strike the bell guy you miss out on the bell healing because i believe it goes off at the start of the turn or movement phase. Where the guo is quite very vulnerable.
Both rotigus and the sword guo want to deep strike, miasma up. Either casting miasma on themselves or having some one else far away cast it on her. Then they either want to cast virulence blessing on themselves and get stuck in or be the biggest thing that can cast nurgle rot. In terms of spells though the GUO with bile blade is more reliable and since the flail damage is so inconsequential on such a big model, is argue the bile made is the better equipment.
Yeah I was planning to run Rotigus with miasma and put -1 toughness on enemy as opposed to virulent. This stacked with pink horrors to break down screening units makes them more lethal (per damage chart). Rotigus almost assuredly will get shot after deepstriking but at least he has -1 on him and i can calculate if he is a good candidate for the -1 invul at the beginning of that turn. Then he can engage and pop nurgle rot (I think he can know 3 spells).
That is a pretty good use for rotigus is his spell versatility for sure. However shrivel pox is kind of niche.
This is because ujnless the target unit is a big model (leman Russ) or just has lots of models in the unit (conscript block. Then often times it's just as good or better to cast smite. Here is abit of why:
Shrivel pox can only ever be a situational +1 to wound. Meaning the target unit must be within 1T of a change is damage bracket for you to get a net of +1 to wound. For instance a chimera/magnus/ all the greater daemons and so on are T7 and reducing the toughness by 1 doesn't matter is many case. Unless your planning to charge with a Loc woth blade or daemon princes.
Then on the flip case of lets say a space marine squad. -1T for most of our weapons will net +1 to would. However, your only increasing your damage out out by 1/6th. Meaning you need to kill 12 or more guys (or deal 12 or more wounds) to do the same average damage as you would have if you just casted smite.
Lastly, most screens are T2/3. Looking at nurglings, scouts, rangers, and brimstones. Pink horror and other units have ways to already wound these models on 2s in more versatile ways or just do this innately.
Edit: a side note as well on the damage calls is while blood letter do alot of damage. Getting them where they need to be is considerably unrealistic in any competive setting.
Also while flamers aren't as power and are certainly squished than pinks. Flamers are the best companion unit to pink to keep in your pocket. Pinks really want to have reserved points for splitting. Should your opponent not attack the pinks. You'll want to convert the points instead into damage. In such instances flamers are the perfect slot in unit here. The foot pink is so small compare to pink you can summoning them just about anywhere, and the flamers are abit less relient in buffs.
Nurglings are great. As well as I believe was pointed out. Gotta love those little dudes.
Also notable is the durability of the Loc and Blood thirster when equipped. Two units that work well together, and as I run them I also bring a GUO with miasma and some times fleshy abundance. Making for a very toughbto take down trio that can all deep strike down and start causing havoc. With the e of them it's likely you'll end the game with 1 or 2 of them still alive at the end of turn 5 or 6. As damage ramps down considerably after turn 2.
All of this combines to make chaos daemons more bent toward super durability list where you aim to when on objectives and be untablable. Where list like dark reaper spam struggle to kill you before you consume thier gun lines.
mmimzie wrote: That is a pretty good use for rotigus is his spell versatility for sure. However shrivel pox is kind of niche.
This is because ujnless the target unit is a big model (leman Russ) or just has lots of models in the unit (conscript block. Then often times it's just as good or better to cast smite. Here is abit of why:
Shrivel pox can only ever be a situational +1 to wound. Meaning the target unit must be within 1T of a change is damage bracket for you to get a net of +1 to wound. For instance a chimera/magnus/ all the greater daemons and so on are T7 and reducing the toughness by 1 doesn't matter is many case. Unless your planning to charge with a Loc woth blade or daemon princes.
Then on the flip case of lets say a space marine squad. -1T for most of our weapons will net +1 to would. However, your only increasing your damage out out by 1/6th. Meaning you need to kill 12 or more guys (or deal 12 or more wounds) to do the same average damage as you would have if you just casted smite.
Lastly, most screens are T2/3. Looking at nurglings, scouts, rangers, and brimstones. Pink horror and other units have ways to already wound these models on 2s in more versatile ways or just do this innately.
Edit: a side note as well on the damage calls is while blood letter do alot of damage. Getting them where they need to be is considerably unrealistic in any competive setting.
Also while flamers aren't as power and are certainly squished than pinks. Flamers are the best companion unit to pink to keep in your pocket. Pinks really want to have reserved points for splitting. Should your opponent not attack the pinks. You'll want to convert the points instead into damage. In such instances flamers are the perfect slot in unit here. The foot pink is so small compare to pink you can summoning them just about anywhere, and the flamers are abit less relient in buffs.
Nurglings are great. As well as I believe was pointed out. Gotta love those little dudes.
Also notable is the durability of the Loc and Blood thirster when equipped. Two units that work well together, and as I run them I also bring a GUO with miasma and some times fleshy abundance. Making for a very toughbto take down trio that can all deep strike down and start causing havoc. With the e of them it's likely you'll end the game with 1 or 2 of them still alive at the end of turn 5 or 6. As damage ramps down considerably after turn 2.
All of this combines to make chaos daemons more bent toward super durability list where you aim to when on objectives and be untablable. Where list like dark reaper spam struggle to kill you before you consume thier gun lines.
Not really sure of your math. Smite does d3 mortal wounds which means (on average) as the dice roll 2 mortals. This translates to 2 unsaved wounds. (I am not factoring in rolls of 11+ as for this discussion it is a minority of rolls - 3/36? or 1/12? - not sure).
The thing about shriveling pox is that it does not have to be closest unit, it can be any unit within 18 inches. Of course it is situational and not an auto cast, why would you use it if it doesn't move up the wounds one bracket? My list runs two deepstrking pink squads at 20 - so that is 120 shots, 60 hits, 1/6 of 60 hits is 10 wounds, factoring in even a 3+ save that will out manage smite by 2 wounds. This isn't including other fire sources or stacking this with flickering and being able to reroll 1's with daemonspark (a 2+ wound roll rerolling 1's is much better than a 3+ wound roll rerolling 1's).
As you note, shirveling pox also adds versatility in that it can be used in cases where meaty hits matter - maybe rotigus has to charge a knight (why would you but lets say) and you need to drop toughness from 8 to 7 to get in some 3 flat damage rolls, or drop toughness from 8 to 7 to get PBC mortars and/or entropy cannons to wound on 3's. If even one of those shots translates into more than 2 damage it has done justice. Not to mention - with beta rule smite, you probably want to prioritize what units are smiting, and have to consider it is only the closest unit.
Sure I don't disagree targeting matters as well and taking out must kill units is definitly another boon to shrivel pox. I completely agree
As for smite on 11 plus it's pretty easy to calculate that into how much damage a successful smite will do. I wanna say there is a smite tactics on here where I put that info.
Basicly 10% of all successfully snores will do d6 damage. Do I g math with the actual numbers means successful s mites will do an average of 2.15 damage. Meaning shrivel pox needs to target a unit with 12 or more wounds to be better than smite.
Again I'll admit targeting can make it better. However in the rotigus situation listed above. When you deep strike in your ounks. Thanks to screens odds are good that you can only really target what you'd beable to smite in the first place. On top of that the unit you target you can't really divert more attacks away or better split your attacks based on the shovel pox.
Let's say you deep strike you punks and you see a 9man dark reaper unit behind a ranger squad. Who thanks to your nurgle have to deploy on the line. You cast shrivel pox on the 9man reaper squad because you wanna waste those fools. Now assuming you need the shrivel pox buff to wound on twos (maybe your change caster is out of position so you can actualy get the +1 str). Are you going to risk not getting damage on that dark reaper squad to divert more pinks away from shooting that reaper squad??? No way. Your gonna hammer that reaper squad with all 30 pinks to reduce thier damage output as best you can.
Now let's look at what would happen if we smite the rangers. We smite the rangers and kill 2.15 ranger or even just 1. I'm probably still gonna target the pinks at the dark reapers just to make sure they are dead. Only killing 1 fewer dark reaper tgan if your shrivel poxxed.
Even assuming you had enough pinks to insure that reaper squad died. You still wouldn't divert any attacks away. You'd over kill the abit out of that unit
From there still using the reapers as a good example. Your hinging your damage out put on two spell that might fail +1 to wound and shrivel pox. Where you'd probably rather just get your 2+ to wound by just moving the change caster into buff range and only relying +1 on a single spell.
Lastly, as I said in the previous post I think shrivel pox is abit inflexible.
Reguardless I guess it's a spell and you don't technically have to make your list around spells. So you can just not use it when it isn't good. That said in making my list I don't think I'd ever make my list thinking of shrivel pics as a realistic option as I believe it's effectiveness to be too niche and it doesn't really change the out come of the game in any ways that are too amazing. And finally, as I mentioned before bring shrivel pox as a pocket spell for rotigus is a case where the rotigus could edge out the GUO, but if still rather just take the GUO with bile blade and sword as he's more reliable, and in the situations where those models will really effect the game the GUO with sword and virulence blessing and locus of nurgle will be dishing out considerable amounts of additional damage. Where rotigus will do some light additional edge case damage against units you really don't care to target with a 330 or model.
By DPSGUO, I meant sword and flail.
And I did account somewhat for all the damage they do. For psychic damage I just made up a vaguelly correct number. You can't really quantify it due to enemy deny the witch, -psychic test bonuses, etc...
The Slaanesh strike first ability is situationally useful when going against a melee heavy opponent. I like the CSM Daemon Prince more than CD version. I think CSM version has better choices for psychic spells and warlord traits.Not to mention DTTFE and the buff affects CSM & CD.
ntin wrote: The Slaanesh strike first ability is situationally useful when going against a melee heavy opponent. I like the CSM Daemon Prince more than CD version. I think CSM version has better choices for psychic spells and warlord traits.Not to mention DTTFE and the buff affects CSM & CD.
Just noting - you can get strikes first with Emperors’ Children, and CSMDPs have access to a pretty decent Slaaneshi Relic as well.
My concern would be once the flesh hound screen is dead all your characters are open to being shot at. Maybe set up a conga line of daemon princes to force your opponent to shoot the lead ones first? Against gun line or death star armies, I don't see this working too well. Or if you go against certain armies that can shut down psykers.
Yeah probably right. Maybe you can't make a circus list work, but i will try it anyways .
On the first few pages of this thread was a daemonprince army, it had like 9 or 10 Princes of Nurgle inside and the owner of the list, said that it wrecked face.
Could also work now?
We got better Princes (Thousand Son Princes) and more spells since the start of the edition. Also the pricetag between the weapons is gone, even tough the talons are the best option for a prince anyways.
If we stay in the daemons codex, we got deepstrike back and also some good strategems and also some more fancy new spells.
So there should be a spot for an all daemonprince army, even if it's not that good on the table.
ntin wrote: My concern would be once the flesh hound screen is dead all your characters are open to being shot at. Maybe set up a conga line of daemon princes to force your opponent to shoot the lead ones first? Against gun line or death star armies, I don't see this working too well. Or if you go against certain armies that can shut down psykers.
you cant do that the new FAQ says you cant hide a character behind another character, if i remember well
I would actually take daemon princes from each codex. Codex: Thousand Son, daemon princes can cast two powers a turn. In matched play other than smite, you can only successfully cast a psychic power once per phase. Drawing from 3 codices gives you a large pool of psychic powers to pick from.
Keeping some herald buddies with them would also make them strong getting to S8.
Daemon Princes are okay for clearing out fodder but they are surprisingly average against other characters. Space Marine characters either will have a 3++ or 4++ save, they also have access to weapons that bump their strength. A Blood Angel captain, for example, hits as hard or harder, than a daemon prince, depending on the loadout and can take a combat shield.
Princes aren't particularly mobile at 12M with wings. You can deep strike a wingless daemon prince for 1CP. Taking so many HQs your CP pool will be limited.
I used to take 3 daemon princes in all my lists but I have been phasing them out. I think the 180pts can be better spent on other units.
ntin wrote: My concern would be once the flesh hound screen is dead all your characters are open to being shot at. Maybe set up a conga line of daemon princes to force your opponent to shoot the lead ones first? Against gun line or death star armies, I don't see this working too well. Or if you go against certain armies that can shut down psykers.
you cant do that the new FAQ says you cant hide a character behind another character, if i remember well
FAQ states
ERRATA
Page 67 – Matched Play Mission Rules,
Targeting Characters
Change the first sentence to read:
‘An enemy Character with a Wounds characteristic
of less than 10 can only be chosen as a target in the
Shooting phase if it is both visible to the firer and it is
the closest enemy model to the firer.’
If we assume that the beta Smite rules will come into full effect at some point, them the Smite vs Shriveling Pox argument is pretty moot. The point is really to be able to cast both when appropriate, rather than just one or the other. The same goes for all the other MW causing powers Chaos has access to - I'm far more interested in stacking them than comparing them.
Smite is your MW bread and butter, and the other powers are more niche. Thank goodness we can pick powers on a per game basis to suit the opponent. There's not a lot of juice in labeling a power situational or niche as a criticism when you only have to take them when that niche situation presents itself.
rvd1ofakind wrote:By DPSGUO, I meant sword and flail.
And I did account somewhat for all the damage they do. For psychic damage I just made up a vaguelly correct number. You can't really quantify it due to enemy deny the witch, -psychic test bonuses, etc...
That's fair.
Fenris-77 wrote:If we assume that the beta Smite rules will come into full effect at some point, them the Smite vs Shriveling Pox argument is pretty moot. The point is really to be able to cast both when appropriate, rather than just one or the other. The same goes for all the other MW causing powers Chaos has access to - I'm far more interested in stacking them than comparing them.
Smite is your MW bread and butter, and the other powers are more niche. Thank goodness we can pick powers on a per game basis to suit the opponent. There's not a lot of juice in labeling a power situational or niche as a criticism when you only have to take them when that niche situation presents itself.
Actual just because beta rule needs your smite 2 or 3 smites is still quite decent thanks tot he strength of smite.
From there again shrivel pox only matters if the unit being shriveled actualy results in a bonus to wound. While, ohbalso needs to target a unit with 12+ models to our smite, at -1 it's a 11+, and then again at -2 10-9+ models/wounds. Which means alot offices need to get lined up for shrivel pox to actually matter.
Now note I'm not saying shrivel pox is terrible or unusable. It's more that it's not really an auto take spell, and is pretty niche when it will really shine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darksider wrote: Yeah probably right. Maybe you can't make a circus list work, but i will try it anyways .
On the first few pages of this thread was a daemonprince army, it had like 9 or 10 Princes of Nurgle inside and the owner of the list, said that it wrecked face.
Could also work now?
We got better Princes (Thousand Son Princes) and more spells since the start of the edition. Also the pricetag between the weapons is gone, even tough the talons are the best option for a prince anyways.
If we stay in the daemons codex, we got deepstrike back and also some good strategems and also some more fancy new spells.
So there should be a spot for an all daemonprince army, even if it's not that good on the table.
The best princes are:
Khorne Prince with skull reaver axe. Hands down the best one. Lots of damage out put. Mortal wounds. And so on.
Then it's a toss up between tsons and death guard daemon princes.
Tsons gets and extra spell and with diabolic strength lots of bonus to wound etc.
However the death guard one can receive both the locus and virulence bless. It can also get blades of putrifaction. Geting +2 to wound reguardless of target. Extra damage on 4+ and double damage on 5+.
As far as getting the princes up the table wings is the only bet. If your gonna spend cp deep striking something it may as well be a greater daemon or something. As the daemon princes will also need to deep strike in with a screen big enough to protect the model for a turn before it charges.
Where as a greater daemon can become more durable for the pts than thier daemon Prince counter parts with relics an warlord traits. Or in the GUO case a spell.
andysonic1 wrote: I'd also ignore people implying GW is trying to move away from Slaanesh for whatever reason they come up with. There is no evidence to support that and Slaanesh is too big to remove from the game anyways.
I agree, they'll be back, after they've been washed in the family-friendly waters of Ponyland. They'll return as duelists and perfectionists rather than perverts and hedonists.
It was not my intention to imply that GW is removing them, simply sterilizing them.
Probably not, since both the CSM and Daemons books revel in the lewd aspect of the Emp Children and Slaanesh, constantly talking about pleasure, debauchery, and perversion. The Daemon models have already been toned down once, future models may have their boobs covered up, but they're still the same pleasure focused army they've always been. GW isn't going to go back and rewrite books that already double down on the Lord of Pleasure.
Quite frankly I don't view it as them being toned down. I may be one of the few Slaanesh players that does not like the Diaz models... they weren't Slaanesh to me, from what I've read in the lore, they were just a neck beards wet dream of a model. The new models fit Slaanesh's description of being half man/woman, with one side having the boob and the other not. Their knives were dumb as well. They may as well have been Dark Elf models. The clawed hermaphrodites we have scream Slaanesh way more to me. Plus the Seeker models are much better as well. A lot more raised detail.
I mean the Forgeworld KOS is full of tits and a full on nude ass. And that's also the KOS they've been showing in all the art in the current (new) Codex. Not the old school one or a toned down one. Take what you will from that.
As for what's good. I've found Hellflayers to be pretty awesome. Heralds on the ESC definitly don't seem too great... but only because they become targetable. Of course, i don't min/max quite as much as everyone else on DakkaDakka. I tend to run my units only in numbers divisible by 6. lol
I also like the “new” daemonettes. Hawt chicks are great and all, but the sculpts are old, and not especially creative. A cynic could say the corset-wearing she-crabs are not super creative either, so it’s ultimately subjective, but I’m happy they’re what we’ve got.
Happy because I will decapitate every last one of those hedonistic abominations while roaring praises to the blood god.
In defense of the 3rd edition Diaz style daemons. For their time those models were pretty stellar. Their poses were considerably more dynamic than other GW models at the time but they are over 15 years old at this point.
What I don't like about the current plastic Slaanesh line is there just generic looking monster woman. They don't have the same hint of Eldar grace that the Diaz models have. If Slaanesh ever gets a new model update it would be cool to see a middle ground between the two. As an army of androgynous David Bowie daemons with little plastic breasts and bulges in their pants.
ntin wrote: In defense of the 3rd edition Diaz style daemons. For their time those models were pretty stellar. Their poses were considerably more dynamic than other GW models at the time but they are over 15 years old at this point.
What I don't like about the current plastic Slaanesh line is there just generic looking monster woman. They don't have the same hint of Eldar grace that the Diaz models have. If Slaanesh ever gets a new model update it would be cool to see a middle ground between the two. As an army of androgynous David Bowie daemons with little plastic breasts and bulges in their pants.
I agree. They just look like whatever. They are definitly good-looking models, but the other daemons when you look at them they look like what they stand for.
It think that's an issue with slaannesh I'm general its hard to make models that look like excess
ntin wrote: In defense of the 3rd edition Diaz style daemons. For their time those models were pretty stellar. Their poses were considerably more dynamic than other GW models at the time but they are over 15 years old at this point.
What I don't like about the current plastic Slaanesh line is there just generic looking monster woman. They don't have the same hint of Eldar grace that the Diaz models have. If Slaanesh ever gets a new model update it would be cool to see a middle ground between the two. As an army of androgynous David Bowie daemons with little plastic breasts and bulges in their pants.
I agree. They just look like whatever. They are definitly good-looking models, but the other daemons when you look at them they look like what they stand for.
It think that's an issue with slaannesh I'm general its hard to make models that look like excess
Part of it is the theme of Slaanesh in both Fantasy/AoS and 40k. Where the Diaz Daemonettes are more elf-like I feel the plastics are more human-like. Slaanesh is coupled with the Elf/Eldar in the setting and not really related to the main human-centric storyline. There are a few cannon instances of Dark Eldar turning towards Slaanesh and Chaos Eldar on the crone worlds. In Fantasy Morathi was in charge of the Cult of Pleasure before she was retconned into being big on Khaine. I would be nice to get that symmetry of Eldar and Chaos Eldar, like Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines has. I am kind of disappointed that AoS Daughter's of Khaine are well, Khaine aligned it would have been a good chance to reintroduce Slaanesh in AoS.
GW model quality is outstanding these days. Morathi in daemon form is amazing and a good preview of what Fulgrim might look like.
Getting kind of off topic but Khorne daemons also changed both aesthetic and even stat wise. As metal models used to be beefy T4 3+/5++ daemons. When they turned plastic they became T3 no armor scrawny daemons.
Thinking about Death's LVO list...
"Poxwalkers emerged from the aquila (were embarked so essentially all the troops are untargetable). He popped strat, pinks killed letters, grew literally towards my entire force (every model lets him put one two inches away in any direction) and essentialy wrapped around my entire force with poxwalkers"
Q: Some rules allow me to add models to a unit during the battle (e.g. the Poxwalker’s Curse of the Walking Pox ability). Where are those models set up?
A: Unless otherwise stated, these new models are placed anywhere that is more than 1" from any enemy model and still within unit coherency of a model in its own unit that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase in which the new model was created. Note that if you cannot set up a new model on the battlefield because there is no room, it is simply not set up.
So... Did no judge/player notice this? Or am I reading it wrong... somehow
rvd1ofakind wrote:Thinking about Death's LVO list...
"Poxwalkers emerged from the aquila (were embarked so essentially all the troops are untargetable). He popped strat, pinks killed letters, grew literally towards my entire force (every model lets him put one two inches away in any direction) and essentialy wrapped around my entire force with poxwalkers"
Q: Some rules allow me to add models to a unit during the battle (e.g. the Poxwalker’s Curse of the Walking Pox ability). Where are those models set up?
A: Unless otherwise stated, these new models are placed anywhere that is more than 1" from any enemy model and still within unit coherency of a model in its own unit that was itself on the battlefield at the start of the phase in which the new model was created. Note that if you cannot set up a new model on the battlefield because there is no room, it is simply not set up.
So... Did no judge/player notice this? Or am I reading it wrong... somehow
Spoiler:
TwitchyReaper wrote:Sorry for the delay folks. It has been a crazy week since I got back from LVO. Here is a basic rundown of how the list operated for me.
The primary function of the list was to give my opponent very little "good" targets to engage. The main units were obviously the Poxwalkers and the 30 man Pink Horrors. The ITC missions made me keep the Poxwalkers at 19 so as to not give up too much to Reaper.
The Poxwalkers would deploy in the Vortex Aquila turn 1 along with most of the characters. The Horrors would bubble wrap the building and the cultists and small horror squads would hide as best as possible until the first turn.
The first game turn would be pretty huge as the Horrors would move forward and position themselves to get some shots, while the Poxwalkers would advance out of the building and mix in as close to the Horrors as possible. They would pop both the Cloud of Flies and Dead Walk Again stratagems. This would make it so that my opponent would have 2 genuine options for targets. The building, or the Horrors. The building being T10 with 30 wounds made it fairly resilient, and if they killed the Horrors they would just split down and create Poxwalkers while they died. The key to learning the list was learning how to maximize placing Horrors and Poxwalkers in a way to not block your own movement and maximize your spread, as you can only place models within range of models that were on the table at the start of the phase.
Then in the psychic phase you would cast as many buff powers as you can on both the Horrors and the Poxwalkers and let them engage in their relevant phases. The vortex would most likely try to shoot either an easy kill if I needed it to get me a kill for the turn, or a threat (like a 10 man Reaper squad). I would often use the Gaze of Fate power in the psychic phase to get a reroll to reroll the number of shots if needed. The thought was pretty simple in that if I kill 1 thing, and my opponent kills none, then it still gets me the bonus.
I would then slowly spread into the table with Horrors and Poxwalkers and use the mass objective secured to control as much of the table as possible while denying my opponent any kills as long as possible.
That was the general gist of the list.
Feel free to ask any questions, I will try to answer as best I can.
So I've been messing around with a chaos soup list, and I wanna give the bloodletter bomb a try. Its expensive to invest in money wise and command points wise though, so before I commit to it I was curious about peoples experience with dropping 30 bloodletters right in someones face. Is it worth investing in, or should I not believe the hype?
if you play something which can easily remove screens they do pretty well, killing and/or thight up units, with a potential 18+1 inches range of charge they can hit deep into enemy lines, they cant kill anything but they can prevent some units to fire back, btw as i said you need something to remove screens, or they charge cheap screens and then die.
Swiftblade wrote: So I've been messing around with a chaos soup list, and I wanna give the bloodletter bomb a try. Its expensive to invest in money wise and command points wise though, so before I commit to it I was curious about peoples experience with dropping 30 bloodletters right in someones face. Is it worth investing in, or should I not believe the hype?
Not a Khorne player but I think you will need to drop a Khorne daemon character next to bloodletters to get the locus ability to re-roll failed charges. To make a 30 strength drop worth it. Failing a charge is going to mean a lot of dead bloodletters on your opponent's turn. You can drop the unit to 20 strength to make it a 1CP drop but soon as you lose 1 bloodletter to overwatch you lose the unit size bonus.
Swiftblade wrote: So I've been messing around with a chaos soup list, and I wanna give the bloodletter bomb a try. Its expensive to invest in money wise and command points wise though, so before I commit to it I was curious about peoples experience with dropping 30 bloodletters right in someones face. Is it worth investing in, or should I not believe the hype?
Not a Khorne player but I think you will need to drop a Khorne daemon character next to bloodletters to get the locus ability to re-roll failed charges. To make a 30 strength drop worth it. Failing a charge is going to mean a lot of dead bloodletters on your opponent's turn. You can drop the unit to 20 strength to make it a 1CP drop but soon as you lose 1 bloodletter to overwatch you lose the unit size bonus.
This is abit untrue. All you need is the banner. From there you could sp3nd the extra cp optionally by using the command or reroll. Between 3d6 charge and command or reroll you have a great chance of making combat.
Also if you want to use the khorne reroll. You still have almost not need to deep strike the herald. You can easily chain back 2 or 3 blood letter to an advancing Herald. That's easily a 30" + increase to the effectiveness of the locus aura range, and it saves you a cp.
Not a Khorne player but I think you will need to drop a Khorne daemon character next to bloodletters to get the locus ability to re-roll failed charges. To make a 30 strength drop worth it. Failing a charge is going to mean a lot of dead bloodletters on your opponent's turn. You can drop the unit to 20 strength to make it a 1CP drop but soon as you lose 1 bloodletter to overwatch you lose the unit size bonus
they very seldom fail with the banner stratagem, of course re roll is great but not mandatory.
So what's the concensus on Skull Cannons right now?
I'm considering a World Eaters / Khorne Daemons list consisting of 2 or 3 rhino transports packed full of berskers, champs and apostles. I have a couple of helbrutes acting as advancing and ranged support for the rhino convoy though I'm debating swapping them out for maybe 3 skull cannons.
eternalxfl wrote: So what's the concensus on Skull Cannons right now?
IMO still very average. They are in a better spot than what they were previously but still outshined by many other choices (from a competitive stand-point)
Hey guys, tell me a unit that you think is strong, that's not a Bloodletter, Pink Horror or Nurgling and I'll evaluate it.
The 2 worst units in chaos daemons seem to be Keeper of Secrets and Hellflayer btw
rvd1ofakind wrote: Hey guys, tell me a unit that you think is strong, that's not a Bloodletter, Pink Horror or Nurgling and I'll evaluate it.
The 2 worst units in chaos daemons seem to be Keeper of Secrets and Hellflayer btw
Herald of slaanesh on steed and Flamers of tzeench. I'd like to see numbers on these if you could please.
eternalxfl wrote: So what's the concensus on Skull Cannons right now?
IMO still very average. They are in a better spot than what they were previously but still outshined by many other choices (from a competitive stand-point)
I plan to run 3 of them in a spear head. Ive found that by themselves they don't roll so well. but when combined with buffs and each other it gets to be pretty potent. 3d6 shots str 8 ap -2 d3 dmg. Reroll 1's to hit from a herald. The crimson crown near them helps too. Any wound roll of a 6 generates extra shots. When I was just rolling some dice, I was averaging 3-4 unsaved wounds by marines in the open. for 3-4d3 dmg. Against a Russ, it was either dead or crippled.
eternalxfl wrote: So what's the concensus on Skull Cannons right now?
IMO still very average. They are in a better spot than what they were previously but still outshined by many other choices (from a competitive stand-point)
I plan to run 3 of them in a spear head. Ive found that by themselves they don't roll so well. but when combined with buffs and each other it gets to be pretty potent. 3d6 shots str 8 ap -2 d3 dmg. Reroll 1's to hit from a herald. The crimson crown near them helps too. Any wound roll of a 6 generates extra shots. When I was just rolling some dice, I was averaging 3-4 unsaved wounds by marines in the open. for 3-4d3 dmg. Against a Russ, it was either dead or crippled.
I, uh, I'm running 6-8 in the 1500 list I'm building And I started working on them before the IMO super deserved price drop / gun buff, simply because I like shooty Khorne + weapon beasties. Definitely all about that Crimson Crown on their herald minder.
No idea how great SC spam will be buuuuuut I'll let y'all know over in batreps at some point this year
rvd1ofakind wrote: Hey guys, tell me a unit that you think is strong, that's not a Bloodletter, Pink Horror or Nurgling and I'll evaluate it.
The 2 worst units in chaos daemons seem to be Keeper of Secrets and Hellflayer btw
I'd like to see what your evaluation of Flesh Hounds is now that they've dropped in points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also not to bring up a dead argument but GW's latest Daughters of Khaine preview shows off the Bloodwrack Medusae which has an exposed breast. They may be old models but at least it gives some hope for a non-neutered Slaanesh release.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also not to bring up a dead argument but GW's latest Daughters of Khaine preview shows off the Bloodwrack Medusae which has an exposed breast. They may be old models but at least it gives some hope for a non-neutered Slaanesh release.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also not to bring up a dead argument but GW's latest Daughters of Khaine preview shows off the Bloodwrack Medusae which has an exposed breast. They may be old models but at least it gives some hope for a non-neutered Slaanesh release.
Going up against a chaos list this weekend. Haven't seen the new daemons stratagems yet in action. Can someone give me the highlights and the gotchas? I know you can deep strike daemons like it's going out of style, and i heard this works quite well with pink horrors.
Deep Strike has a CP cost. <= 8 PL 1Cp > 8 PL 2CP. They can deep strike 20 strong troops for 1 CP and 21-30 strong troops for 2 CP. Heralds and Wingless DP, are 1 CP as well. Winged CP and Greater Daemons are 2 CP. Other daemon units typically take 2CP to drop in numbers that might be worrying. Tzeetch and Khorne, are the most effective gods to deep strike with.
Another stratagem is Warp Surge which increases invulnerable saves for 1 phase to a maximum of 3++. Tzeetch units can dig in like ticks with 30 pinks with a 3++. They do have to declare this stratagem at the start of the phase.
Each god has a 1 CP banner upgrade, which is declared during setup. It is worth focusing that unit as the special banner does some fun stuff.
After that, it really depends on what chaos god they are taking. As they have their own stratagems, warlord traits, artifacts, and psychic spells (well not Khorne obviously).
Daemons are still heavily reliant on their characters for buff auras. The named heralds will have a different buff than the default herald for that chaos god. In mono, god lists characters will gain a 2nd aura buff based on their chaos god.
You can snipe any Greater Daemon, as they all have >9 wounds. GUO did get a stat line buff over the index.
If you are worried about Tzeetch, hive fleet Kronos Neurothropes (aaannd a warlord trait I think?) could hinder their psychic phase. Pink Horror bomb is the same basic idea as Trygon devilgaunt bomb. It is hard to counter unless you just own table space.
horror bomb is far superior than devilgaunt bomb
1st they dont need an almost 200pts delivery system
2nd they are more more resilient with a 3++ inv save
3rd they shot at +1 to wound rr 1 to wound with demonspark
4th if you have spare point they can split
Depend what kind of list tyr plays, against some might be marginally effective, against some other can be a real pain in the ass, able to remove 2-3 units in a turn.
blackmage wrote: horror bomb is far superior than devilgaunt bomb
1st they dont need an almost 200pts delivery system
Command point or two instead
2nd they are more more resilient with a 3++ inv save
Another command point assumed
3rd they shot at +1 to wound rr 1 to wound with demonspark
Yet another command point, lol, and psychic power required
4th if you have spare point they can split
Valid, but so is spending points on the delivery system for devilgaunts
Depend what kind of list tyr plays, against some might be marginally effective, against some other can be a real pain in the ass, able to remove 2-3 units in a turn.
Devilgaunts can ignore moral too, which horrors won't, barring having skarbrand nearby.
Did I mention devilgaunts can fire twice for less command points than you've assumed for your horrors. 180 shots. It would take 2 units of 30 to equal that, and a lot more command points to deliver them, in an already command point hungry army.
Sorry but I get annoyed at the theory hammer that automatically assumes command point benefits in a dynamic game, where choosing to use them is very situational at times. Sure, give your horrors a 3++, I'll shoot at something else :/, or possibly just attempt to take away their save altogether with a psychic power
I haven't been really impressed the performance of 30 size units of troops (Daemonettes in my case). If they don't die in the shooting phase, then the morale phase will often finish off the unit. Has anyone tried running a large number of minimum size squads instead fewer max size squads?
ntin wrote:If you are worried about Tzeetch, hive fleet Kronos Neurothropes (aaannd a warlord trait I think?) could hinder their psychic phase. Pink Horror bomb is the same basic idea as Trygon devilgaunt bomb. It is hard to counter unless you just own table space.
blackmage wrote:horror bomb is far superior than devilgaunt bomb
1st they dont need an almost 200pts delivery system
2nd they are more more resilient with a 3++ inv save
3rd they shot at +1 to wound rr 1 to wound with demonspark
4th if you have spare point they can split
Depend what kind of list tyr plays, against some might be marginally effective, against some other can be a real pain in the ass, able to remove 2-3 units in a turn.
I didn't suggest one was better than the other? Only that this tactic was something that the Tyranid player could relate to.
ntin wrote: I haven't been really impressed the performance of 30 size units of troops (Daemonettes in my case). If they don't die in the shooting phase, then the morale phase will often finish off the unit. Has anyone tried running a large number of minimum size squads instead fewer max size squads?
That's interesting to hear. I was thinking of focusing my deamon army some. At the moment I have ....
25 deamonettes , 30 bloodletters, 20 pink horrors, 5 seekers, 3 plauge drones, 10 furies of nurgle, 10 hounds, a soulgrinder, a deamon prince, the masque, skulltaker, changeling, and karanak. I also have access to a lord of change, a keeper of secrets, and 2 bloodthirsters.
I was thinking of adding more deamonettes, more seekers, and maybe some chariots of some sort. But if numbers of deamonettes have lackluster returns I may not bother.
ntin wrote: I haven't been really impressed the performance of 30 size units of troops (Daemonettes in my case). If they don't die in the shooting phase, then the morale phase will often finish off the unit. Has anyone tried running a large number of minimum size squads instead fewer max size squads?
That's interesting to hear. I was thinking of focusing my deamon army some. At the moment I have ....
25 deamonettes , 30 bloodletters, 20 pink horrors, 5 seekers, 3 plauge drones, 10 furies of nurgle, 10 hounds, a soulgrinder, a deamon prince, the masque, skulltaker, changeling, and karanak. I also have access to a lord of change, a keeper of secrets, and 2 bloodthirsters.
I was thinking of adding more deamonettes, more seekers, and maybe some chariots of some sort. But if numbers of deamonettes have lackluster returns I may not bother.
Not really for me though i have had very good luck with rolling 1s while using banners. I usually use 1 large block as a suicide screen block to keep the other 1 or 2 alive as i advance. mix with DP, character auras, and if you take severe losses ignore morale cp to negate morale.
ntin wrote: I haven't been really impressed the performance of 30 size units of troops (Daemonettes in my case). If they don't die in the shooting phase, then the morale phase will often finish off the unit. Has anyone tried running a large number of minimum size squads instead fewer max size squads?
That's interesting to hear. I was thinking of focusing my deamon army some. At the moment I have ....
25 deamonettes , 30 bloodletters, 20 pink horrors, 5 seekers, 3 plauge drones, 10 furies of nurgle, 10 hounds, a soulgrinder, a deamon prince, the masque, skulltaker, changeling, and karanak. I also have access to a lord of change, a keeper of secrets, and 2 bloodthirsters.
I was thinking of adding more deamonettes, more seekers, and maybe some chariots of some sort. But if numbers of deamonettes have lackluster returns I may not bother.
I am a big fan of seekers. For most deployment zones they have a reasonable chance to charge on turn 1.
Daemonettes (and Bloodletters) are T3 5++ with LD7. Any kind of shooting melts them. If you lose say 10 out of 30, for your morale check you are losing between 4 to 9 more automatically in the morale phase. You can deep strike Daemonettes but they will need 9+ or 8+ (with instrument) charge roll to get in. Where Bloodletters have more reliable means to charge from the deep strike. So you just spent 2CP to deep strike 30 daemonettes, and maybe another CP to reroll a charge dice. That is 2-3CP just to get a single unit into melee.
try to play sometimes and you will understand pretty well the real value of units.
Wtf is this? Really. What's the point of this? Are you monitoring and seeing that I'm/he isn't playing?
when one play enough have no need for mathammer, he perfectly know how units perform and unit performance isn't just based on how many casualty they inflict to enemy, but again to figure that you must play, enjoy, period.
blackmage wrote: horror bomb is far superior than devilgaunt bomb
1st they dont need an almost 200pts delivery system
Command point or two instead
2nd they are more more resilient with a 3++ inv save
Another command point assumed
3rd they shot at +1 to wound rr 1 to wound with demonspark
Yet another command point, lol, and psychic power required
4th if you have spare point they can split
Valid, but so is spending points on the delivery system for devilgaunts
Depend what kind of list tyr plays, against some might be marginally effective, against some other can be a real pain in the ass, able to remove 2-3 units in a turn.
Devilgaunts can ignore moral too, which horrors won't, barring having skarbrand nearby.
Did I mention devilgaunts can fire twice for less command points than you've assumed for your horrors. 180 shots. It would take 2 units of 30 to equal that, and a lot more command points to deliver them, in an already command point hungry army.
Sorry but I get annoyed at the theory hammer that automatically assumes command point benefits in a dynamic game, where choosing to use them is very situational at times. Sure, give your horrors a 3++, I'll shoot at something else :/, or possibly just attempt to take away their save altogether with a psychic power
good luck i play both devilgants bomb and horror bomb and i can tell horror bomb is pretty more dangerous, that wont sat devilgaunts are weak....thanks
when one play enough have no need for mathammer, he perfectly know how units perform and unit performance isn't just based on how many casualty they inflict to enemy, but again to figure that you must play, enjoy, period.
So if I roll hot 3 times in a row and make the Skarbrand 9'' sharge - does that suddenly mean he's the best unit in the game? NO. Stop shoving your anecdotal evidence down people's throats: "play enough".
Your personal results do not matter in the slightest unless you are consistently topping GTs and Majors.
The results that matter are:
Data from tournaments
Statistics (Mathammer)
Input from pros
You can take your flamers, burning chariots, skull cannons, whatever and win every RTT in your neighborhood. Then come out to the LVO/BAO/Nova/SoCal and go 2:4 at best.
Yeah, he lost me at have no need for mathhammer...
As a side note, I'm trying hard to build a Thricefold Befoulement list, as I'm picking up the box when my taxes come in. I deserve it! I posted a list in the army forum, if anyone is interested.
My question to you guys here is given that I'm determined to run 3 great unclean ones at 2000 pts, what's optimal for their loadout, and support? One fellow suggested that I'd need horde control, and I tend to agree. What does nurgle have that best deals with hordes? I could do a nurgle soup if I needed to stay competitive.
Originally, I was thinking of one or two having the bell and trying to use that to the best with many plague drones and nurglings near them. But their damage output goes way down with the bell. Do you think I'd need to deepstrike them, or is footslogging viable? They should be able to advance and charge with either the bilepiper or the garden in the list.
I don't know about 'similar damage output' - I'm pretty sure the Horrors outperform the Flamers against most targets, especially in squads of more than 20. If you are going to have some elements in place that can mitigate potential morale issues then Horrors are the way to go (although they are probably the way tpo go anyway from an efficiency standpoint). Nothing wrong with taking both either.
1500pts RTT 2nd place. 2 wins 1 draw, same as first place. Both ran bloodletters, he souped it up with world eaters. We drew game 1 and he got the easier oppoenent game 2 where he farmed up points (I got Eldar with all their guardian, shining spear, dark reaper BS). So he won on pts at the end of the tournament.
My list was:
Skullreaver DP (dies too fast as everyone and their mother can ignore the character rule somehow)
Skulltaker (just outright meh)
3x 20 letters (should be max 2 squads with only 19 to avoid giving away reaper pts) Also scouts everywhere
2x Tz herald (1 warlord with flickering) - just AWFUL showing as they failed 80% of their casts. ugh
30 pinks - they're just amazing. The durability + damage is still amazing.
brimstones (great, camped backfield, gave me CP for batallions. Seems good)
2 nurgle heralds - too expensive
3x 3 nurglings (great)
Thinking of ditching some, souping up tz and nurgle. And maybe going more heavy on exalted flamers and maybe another 30 pinks? If all my games went the distance, I'd be 0-3. I just lose 80+ models in 2 turns through the 5++ and huge morale losses. Rolled a single 1 on Icons in 3 games.
Nym wrote: I'd like to add a Daemon detachment to my Thousand Sons but I'm torn between Horrors and Flamers. I plan on DSing them.
Horrors are more resilient but suffer from Morale issues while Flamers have higher mobility and similar damage output.
What would you guys recommend ?
Three Flamer units will be noticeably weaker than three Horror units against most targets other than banzai chargers who don’t carry guns. They’ll also eat 2CP to DS them all in, whereas a Battalion of Horrors will self-fund their Stratagems.
I’d probably recommend 2x20 Pink Horrors to DS, 10 Brimstones to screen something, 2 Heralds on discs (or chariot, if you like) to buff their flames, and a DP in your TS to rendezvous and make them miss less (and get a S boost & casting re-rolls off a Herald).
andysonic1 wrote: What was your friend's soup with the Bloodletters + World Eaters?
Yup. Full r-tard melee. He dodged eldar, which would've DESTROYED him (and which I got and only won because he can't play Eldar fast enough and I farmed up points before the game was stopped)
Here's how fun the eldar game was:
48'' missle launcher warlord sniping my heralds, 2x 5 rangers doing the same. Snipers are so dumb... Anyway, I threw bodies upon bodies upon bodies at him, so the time ran out and I won with next to nothing left by a few VPs on turn 3...
2x 20 letters, skullreaver DP khorne DP, jump pack chaos lord, 2 rhinos with 4x5 berzerkers, and some cultists
Basically a list with a huge weakness: screen + long range shooting to blow up rhinos. And I did not have the 2nd part. We tied. His next opponent was a filthy casual. The last fkd up with the screen or so I was told.
There is a local tournament end of march and I think of joining in with stuff I have already painted or were a minimum amount of work is needed (to have a fully painted army, so nothing that exceeds 3 weeks of work), so no Nurgle or Slaanesh and no Greater Daemons.
My first version is more about what I would like to put on the table:
+ HQ + Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings
++ Total: [108 PL, 1991pts] ++
what bother me now is
using screamers instead of furies (those are there as fast screening unit) or are the flesh hounds enough fast screening?
skipping the TS Princes and use regular ones instead (allow me to add another Fluxmaster)?
using TS or Damon Relics?
skip the Khorne stuff and use more Exalted Flamers and/or Brimstones?
Add in another Khorne Prince or a Bloodthirster
I am not going to replace my old GD with the new ones, but as they are too small I don't want to risk complaints using the old ones as something else than a Prince
Otherwise there would be Kairos, a Bloodthirster and 3 Princes available.
and I still have 20 Seekers here but don't think I manage to build and paint them up in time
Is a Warp Bolter on a CD Daemon Prince the index cost?
Only the CSM one was dropped in pts. Which direction in the flow chart does this one go in?
The Faction is the same, the weapon the same but it is different army, different data sheet, so different points cost right? The Warp Bolter isn't even listed in Codex so strictly using the Index, we pay full price, Yay or nay?
Only the CSM one was dropped in pts. Which direction in the flow chart does this one go in?
The Faction is the same, the weapon the same but it is different army, different data sheet, so different points cost right? The Warp Bolter isn't even listed in Codex so strictly using the Index, we pay full price, Yay or nay?
I'm under the impression that you use the latest datasheet for your unit. The Daemon Prince in the Daemon Codex does not have the Warp Bolter option, so he doesn't get it at all.
Codex: Chaos Daemon, Daemon Prince can still take a warp bolter but at the cost found in Index: Chaos (9pts). Where a Codex: Chaos Marine, Daemon Prince pays 3pts for a warp bolter because it is in that codex.
Codex: Chaos Daemon, Daemon Prince can still take a warp bolter but at the cost found in Index: Chaos (9pts). Where a Codex: Chaos Marine, Daemon Prince pays 3pts for a warp bolter because it is in that codex.
Well good they can use it and dumb that it's still 9 points. I would take it every time otherwise.
Tomorrow I'll get the last bulk of my khorne army in (excluding skarbrand, still in the mail). I should have a magnetized thirster, 20 hounds, 6 crushers (I know, they suck right?) 3 cannons and I think 82 bloodletters, skulltaker, few heralds and DP.
I'm thinking of finally trying out the bloodletter shotgun with 30, 30 and 20 bloodletters on the table. skulltaker and axe DP as HQ. Then filling the rest with nurgling battalions and tossing some other nurgle units in.
I know a tzeentch battalion for screen killing is suggested, but I don't have a big enough pink horror blob yet. Are there any upgrades or tactics that have changed for khorne lately that I should know about?
The tl;dr; version is the +1S aura for the Herald of Slaanesh is named differently than the Index Slaanesh Heralds (Herald of Slaanesh on Steed, Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker Chariot, and Herald of Slaanesh on Exalted Seeker Chariot). Allowing Slaanesh units to get +2S if the codex herald and one of the index heralds are used in conjunction.
This is a bit more ridiculous question but, for chariots, how would you recommend I situate my model on the base for the best effective charging circumference? Is that even a thing to think about?
GW has pictures of the chariots being put on length wise down the oval and width wise. Wondering if one is better or just looks cooler.
Interesting, wouldn’t this apply to Herald of Nurgle / poxbringer aswell? That + epidemius would be str 10 pbc or str 8 drones without epidemius. Or are they named the same?
Gremmer wrote: Interesting, wouldn’t this apply to Herald of Nurgle / poxbringer aswell? That + epidemius would be str 10 pbc or str 8 drones without epidemius. Or are they named the same?
I don't have my Index: Chaos handy but if Nurgle has Herald units that didn't make it into Codex: Chaos Daemons, then yes. Only the Herald of Slaanesh made it into Codex Chaos Daemons (and it is still called Herald of Slaanesh, it didn't get renamed).
There might be an argument The Poxbringer and Herald of Nurgle, are different units because they were renamed? Codex: Chaos Daemons is the only release I am aware of they renamed so many units from the index.
The Herald of Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne are much murkier waters than Slaanesh. The designers commentary talk about what to do if your model doesn't have a data sheet in the codex. Your Herald of Nurgle model does in the form of the Poxbringer data sheet.
So in answer to the question, no, you can't bring a Herald of Nurgle and a poxbringer as the poxbringer datasheet is the updated version for the model.
JakeSiren wrote: The Herald of Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne are much murkier waters than Slaanesh. The designers commentary talk about what to do if your model doesn't have a data sheet in the codex. Your Herald of Nurgle model does in the form of the Poxbringer data sheet.
So in answer to the question, no, you can't bring a Herald of Nurgle and a poxbringer as the poxbringer datasheet is the updated version for the model.
Do have any reference or rule precedent to back up that statement?
There is no data card in Codex: Chaos Daemons called for an HQ unit called “Herald of Nurgle”. I can say that my model analog for the “Herald of Nurgle” data card and not the “Poxbringer” data card. As “Herald of Nurgle” is not present in Codex: Chaos Daemons.
The first box in the flow chart in the developer commentary asks "DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?". My "Herald of Nurgle" does not have a data sheet, so I default to the index.
RAI we can infer that the “Poxbringer” is the replacement data card for the “Herald of Nurgle” but there is no rule or faq/errata that symbolically links these two data cards from the index and codex. We are just making well-informed assumption that is what GW intended.
JakeSiren wrote: The Herald of Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne are much murkier waters than Slaanesh. The designers commentary talk about what to do if your model doesn't have a data sheet in the codex. Your Herald of Nurgle model does in the form of the Poxbringer data sheet.
So in answer to the question, no, you can't bring a Herald of Nurgle and a poxbringer as the poxbringer datasheet is the updated version for the model.
Do have any reference or rule precedent to back up that statement?
There is no data card in Codex: Chaos Daemons called for an HQ unit called “Herald of Nurgle”. I can say that my model analog for the “Herald of Nurgle” data card and not the “Poxbringer” data card. As “Herald of Nurgle” is not present in Codex: Chaos Daemons.
The first box in the flow chart in the developer commentary asks "DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?". My "Herald of Nurgle" does not have a data sheet, so I default to the index.
RAI we can infer that the “Poxbringer” is the replacement data card for the “Herald of Nurgle” but there is no rule or faq/errata that symbolically links these two data cards from the index and codex. We are just making well-informed assumption that is what GW intended.
Which part? Rules about which datasheet to use for a model are in the designers commentary. The models are the same, ergo you use the updated data sheet.
On the other side, I can always deny you from using Poxbringers by disallowing proxies and insisting that you use the correct models to represent your army. As the "Poxbringer" is the same sculpt as the "Herald of Nurgle", you have no way to demonstrate that that specific model is a poxbringer, and not a Herald of Nurgle.
JakeSiren wrote: The Herald of Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne are much murkier waters than Slaanesh. The designers commentary talk about what to do if your model doesn't have a data sheet in the codex. Your Herald of Nurgle model does in the form of the Poxbringer data sheet.
So in answer to the question, no, you can't bring a Herald of Nurgle and a poxbringer as the poxbringer datasheet is the updated version for the model.
Do have any reference or rule precedent to back up that statement?
There is no data card in Codex: Chaos Daemons called for an HQ unit called “Herald of Nurgle”. I can say that my model analog for the “Herald of Nurgle” data card and not the “Poxbringer” data card. As “Herald of Nurgle” is not present in Codex: Chaos Daemons.
The first box in the flow chart in the developer commentary asks "DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?". My "Herald of Nurgle" does not have a data sheet, so I default to the index.
RAI we can infer that the “Poxbringer” is the replacement data card for the “Herald of Nurgle” but there is no rule or faq/errata that symbolically links these two data cards from the index and codex. We are just making well-informed assumption that is what GW intended.
If you have a way to show that your Herald was different from the Poxbringer, i.e through conversions, or use of a different model, then there should be no issue. I have seen many reports where people use the nurgle dude with the huge axe from AoS as poxbringers. Of course, if you have two heralds, and say "this one is this, this one is that" then it becomes an issue.
Which part? Rules about which datasheet to use for a model are in the designers commentary. The models are the same, ergo you use the updated data sheet.
On the other side, I can always deny you from using Poxbringers by disallowing proxies and insisting that you use the correct models to represent your army. As the "Poxbringer" is the same sculpt as the "Herald of Nurgle", you have no way to demonstrate that that specific model is a poxbringer, and not a Herald of Nurgle.
Which part? Rules about which datasheet to use for a model are in the designers commentary. The models are the same, ergo you use the updated data sheet.
What I am getting at is “Just Because Fallacy” isn’t a valid argument.
To reiterate my point. The data cards for both “Poxbringer” and “Herald of Nurgle” are both valid because “Poxbringer” is a new unit in Codex: Chaos Daemons and does not replace “Herald of Nurgle”. Where the data card for “Herald of Slaanesh” from Index: Chaos is invalidated by the new data card “Herald of Slaanesh” in Codex: Chaos Daemons. As both data cards share the same name. GW has not published errata stating X “index herald” is replaced by Y “codex herald”. That is the missing rule that is causing this problem.
This becomes the problem. These models represent two different data cards now. The first box in the flowchart in the Developer’s commentary has “DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?”. My model “Herald of Nurgle” does not have a datasheet in the codex. Which flows to “NO” and “USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET”. Where my model “Poxbringer” flows to “YES”.
On the other side, I can always deny you from using Poxbringers by disallowing proxies and insisting that you use the correct models to represent your army. As the "Poxbringer" is the same sculpt as the "Herald of Nurgle", you have no way to demonstrate that that specific model is a poxbringer, and not a Herald of Nurgle.
The model is the correct model to represent both the “Herald of Nurgle” and “Poxbringer” data card? Even under WYSIWYG this isn’t breaking the rule. Conversely, you have no way to tell me that this “Poxbringer” isn’t a “Herald of Nurgle”. Even in a tournament setting if I point out what models are what and those models are a reasonable approximation, it is fine.
Generally, as a courtesy I point out to my opponents that Herald 1 has psychic power a, Herald 2 has psychic power b, etc. Though this is more of a matter of good sportsmanship.
Which part? Rules about which datasheet to use for a model are in the designers commentary. The models are the same, ergo you use the updated data sheet.
What I am getting at is “Just Because Fallacy” isn’t a valid argument.
To reiterate my point. The data cards for both “Poxbringer” and “Herald of Nurgle” are both valid because “Poxbringer” is a new unit in Codex: Chaos Daemons and does not replace “Herald of Nurgle”. Where the data card for “Herald of Slaanesh” from Index: Chaos is invalidated by the new data card “Herald of Slaanesh” in Codex: Chaos Daemons. As both data cards share the same name. GW has not published errata stating X “index herald” is replaced by Y “codex herald”. That is the missing rule that is causing this problem.
This becomes the problem. These models represent two different data cards now. The first box in the flowchart in the Developer’s commentary has “DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?”. My model “Herald of Nurgle” does not have a datasheet in the codex. Which flows to “NO” and “USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET”. Where my model “Poxbringer” flows to “YES”.
On the other side, I can always deny you from using Poxbringers by disallowing proxies and insisting that you use the correct models to represent your army. As the "Poxbringer" is the same sculpt as the "Herald of Nurgle", you have no way to demonstrate that that specific model is a poxbringer, and not a Herald of Nurgle.
The model is the correct model to represent both the “Herald of Nurgle” and “Poxbringer” data card? Even under WYSIWYG this isn’t breaking the rule. Conversely, you have no way to tell me that this “Poxbringer” isn’t a “Herald of Nurgle”. Even in a tournament setting if I point out what models are what and those models are a reasonable approximation, it is fine.
Generally, as a courtesy I point out to my opponents that Herald 1 has psychic power a, Herald 2 has psychic power b, etc. Though this is more of a matter of good sportsmanship.
Models are not data sheets. Models are models. If your model that formerly represented a Herald of Nurgle now represents a Poxbringer in the codex then your model has a data sheet and you do not get to use the index.
Which part? Rules about which datasheet to use for a model are in the designers commentary. The models are the same, ergo you use the updated data sheet.
What I am getting at is “Just Because Fallacy” isn’t a valid argument.
To reiterate my point. The data cards for both “Poxbringer” and “Herald of Nurgle” are both valid because “Poxbringer” is a new unit in Codex: Chaos Daemons and does not replace “Herald of Nurgle”. Where the data card for “Herald of Slaanesh” from Index: Chaos is invalidated by the new data card “Herald of Slaanesh” in Codex: Chaos Daemons. As both data cards share the same name. GW has not published errata stating X “index herald” is replaced by Y “codex herald”. That is the missing rule that is causing this problem.
This becomes the problem. These models represent two different data cards now. The first box in the flowchart in the Developer’s commentary has “DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?”. My model “Herald of Nurgle” does not have a datasheet in the codex. Which flows to “NO” and “USE THE INDEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET”. Where my model “Poxbringer” flows to “YES”.
On the other side, I can always deny you from using Poxbringers by disallowing proxies and insisting that you use the correct models to represent your army. As the "Poxbringer" is the same sculpt as the "Herald of Nurgle", you have no way to demonstrate that that specific model is a poxbringer, and not a Herald of Nurgle.
The model is the correct model to represent both the “Herald of Nurgle” and “Poxbringer” data card? Even under WYSIWYG this isn’t breaking the rule. Conversely, you have no way to tell me that this “Poxbringer” isn’t a “Herald of Nurgle”. Even in a tournament setting if I point out what models are what and those models are a reasonable approximation, it is fine.
Generally, as a courtesy I point out to my opponents that Herald 1 has psychic power a, Herald 2 has psychic power b, etc. Though this is more of a matter of good sportsmanship.
Yeah if agree woth other commenta. I think your abit wrong as the designer notes care about "models" not names. Meaning that the poxbringer model is the same model for Herald of nurgle. Which means the poxbringer datasheet replaces the Herald datasheet. I think this is as clear as rules can be. No where does it say we care about datasheet titles Or the name of things. We care about models and that's it. So the name doesn't matter.
Models are not data sheets. Models are models. If your model that formerly represented a Herald of Nurgle now represents a Poxbringer in the codex then your model has a data sheet and you do not get to use the index.
That is the crux of what I am arguing. A model can be used to represents two data cards, the “Poxbringer” and the “Herald of Nurgle”. The actual physical doesn’t matter, I can convert my own or use a proxy. The reason I can do this is because both datacards have different between names in each book they are not the same unit. So, the Codex’s datacard for “Poxbringer” does not invalidate the Index’s datacard for “Herald of Nurgle”.
If GW made some errata to Index: Chaos saying “Herald of Nurgle” is now named “Poxbringer” I have no argument at that point
It is this same logic that says I cannot take the Index: Chaos version of “Keeper of Secrets” because there is a datacard with that same name in Codex: Chaos Daemons, even though the datacards themselves are not the same. But I can still take the “Herald of Slaanesh on Steed” from Index: Chaos because that datacard is not in Codex: Chaos Daemons. There is no datacard for “Herald of Nurgle” in Codex: Chaos Daemons therefore it is not invalidated by the presence of the “Poxbringer” datacard.
Yeah if agree woth other commenta. I think your abit wrong as the designer notes care about "models" not names. Meaning that the poxbringer model is the same model for Herald of nurgle. Which means the poxbringer datasheet replaces the Herald datasheet. I think this is as clear as rules can be. No where does it say we care about datasheet titles Or the name of things. We care about models and that's it. So the name doesn't matter.
That is the thing though. There is no formal rule for how datacards override between the Codex and Index. Rule precedence set by GW have shown that if the datacard has the same name then the Codex then that datacard overrides the Index’s datacard. We know this to be true because the Codex: Chaos Daemon, “Daemon Prince” datacard has the weapon option “warp bolter” because Index: Chaos has a datacard called “Daemon Prince” has a weapon option called “warp bolter”. Using that flow chart allows us to inherit extra rules from Index: Chaos.
We only make a logical assumption that “Poxbringer” is the replacement to “Herald of Nurgle” there is no rule by GW saying that is the case.
Models are not data sheets. Models are models. If your model that formerly represented a Herald of Nurgle now represents a Poxbringer in the codex then your model has a data sheet and you do not get to use the index.
That is the crux of what I am arguing. A model can be used to represents two data cards, the “Poxbringer” and the “Herald of Nurgle”. The actual physical doesn’t matter, I can convert my own or use a proxy. The reason I can do this is because both datacards have different between names in each book they are not the same unit. So, the Codex’s datacard for “Poxbringer” does not invalidate the Index’s datacard for “Herald of Nurgle”.
If GW made some errata to Index: Chaos saying “Herald of Nurgle” is now named “Poxbringer” I have no argument at that point
It is this same logic that says I cannot take the Index: Chaos version of “Keeper of Secrets” because there is a datacard with that same name in Codex: Chaos Daemons, even though the datacards themselves are not the same. But I can still take the “Herald of Slaanesh on Steed” from Index: Chaos because that datacard is not in Codex: Chaos Daemons. There is no datacard for “Herald of Nurgle” in Codex: Chaos Daemons therefore it is not invalidated by the presence of the “Poxbringer” datacard.
Yeah if agree woth other commenta. I think your abit wrong as the designer notes care about "models" not names. Meaning that the poxbringer model is the same model for Herald of nurgle. Which means the poxbringer datasheet replaces the Herald datasheet. I think this is as clear as rules can be. No where does it say we care about datasheet titles Or the name of things. We care about models and that's it. So the name doesn't matter.
That is the thing though. There is no formal rule for how datacards override between the Codex and Index. Rule precedence set by GW have shown that if the datacard has the same name then the Codex then that datacard overrides the Index’s datacard. We know this to be true because the Codex: Chaos Daemon, “Daemon Prince” datacard has the weapon option “warp bolter” because Index: Chaos has a datacard called “Daemon Prince” has a weapon option called “warp bolter”. Using that flow chart allows us to inherit extra rules from Index: Chaos.
We only make a logical assumption that “Poxbringer” is the replacement to “Herald of Nurgle” there is no rule by GW saying that is the case.
By that logic I can use any model to represent any data card as there is no formal rule tying the physical model to a datacard.
Ergo my daemon price will now be represented by the Lord of Skulls
It's the players responsibility to assign the appropriate datasheet to the model.
If you have read the codex, you will know that a Poxbringer is a Herald of nurgle. That model now has a datasheet in a codex. And cannot use a datasheet from an index.
Against my better judgement I tried flamers. They're even worse than I thought, you can't hide them ever as they have 12'' range so they shoot and die when anyone as much as looks at them. Their damage is nothing to write home about. They can't even pick their targets. A competant opponent doesn't let you kill those elites that you want to kill by just placing a screen 3''+ in front of them...
Just bloodletters... More damage, more survivability, more close combat BS you can pull, more disruption. Flamers - back to the shelf.
Tried Eflamers too. Wow 18'' heavy bites. They didn't appear as bad as flamers but definitelly not top tier. I'll try them later maybe. Screamers I don't even bother with tbh. Flesh hounds exist, which while don't hit as hard - have the insane(for their cost) deny rule.
bloodletter has same issue you said with flamers, a competent player wont let you charge their precious elite units, if you dont have a way to rid of screens you are fethed up and if you have you can use flamers as well, i agree that 30 letters usually are more dangersous btw.
Flamers work best when comboed with a bnig splitting horror unit. The flamers let you convert the reinforcement points you don't use after the first turn of recieving fire, into good damage that doesn't require a unit strength bonus.
blackmage wrote: bloodletter has same issue you said with flamers, a competent player wont let you charge their precious elite units, if you dont have a way to rid of screens you are fethed up and if you have you can use flamers as well, i agree that 30 letters usually are more dangersous btw.
There are almost always 2 units within charge range. If so - Letters are INSANE. Charge 1, but charge both instead. Kill 1, surround 2. Opponent can't shoot, can't retreat, he can just cry. On their turn you mop up the other unit or get charged. In the first case, you're free to charge again on turn 2 and you've basically won.
And if he has a blob of 30 as a single unit screen. Guess what, you have 3 turns to bomb AND you have pinks to kill it just in case. ALSO, if push comes to shove, you can crack the screen by fighting twice. Like seriously, if your opponent can shoot the letters after they deepstruck - you fkd up or failed the charge roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mmimzie wrote: Flamers work best when comboed with a bnig splitting horror unit. The flamers let you convert the reinforcement points you don't use after the first turn of recieving fire, into good damage that doesn't require a unit strength bonus.
I still think bloodletters are abit unrealistic
I literally have no idea what you just said. How do flamers use reserve points?
Also bloodletter bomb is a proven concept as it does well in tournaments.
blackmage wrote: bloodletter has same issue you said with flamers, a competent player wont let you charge their precious elite units, if you dont have a way to rid of screens you are fethed up and if you have you can use flamers as well, i agree that 30 letters usually are more dangersous btw.
There are almost always 2 units within charge range. If so - Letters are INSANE. Charge 1, but charge both instead. Kill 1, surround 2. Opponent can't shoot, can't retreat, he can just cry. On their turn you mop up the other unit or get charged. In the first case, you're free to charge again on turn 2 and you've basically won.
And if he has a blob of 30 as a single unit screen. Guess what, you have 3 turns to bomb AND you have pinks to kill it just in case. ALSO, if push comes to shove, you can crack the screen by fighting twice. Like seriously, if your opponent can shoot the letters after they deepstruck - you fkd up or failed the charge roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mmimzie wrote: Flamers work best when comboed with a bnig splitting horror unit. The flamers let you convert the reinforcement points you don't use after the first turn of recieving fire, into good damage that doesn't require a unit strength bonus.
I still think bloodletters are abit unrealistic
I literally have no idea what you just said. How do flamers use reserve points?
Also bloodletter bomb is a proven concept as it does well in tournaments.
If you are using spliting horrors. You need reinforcement points to bring blues and brimstones. Which is a rather good strategy and is also preforming well. However, some times they ignore your horrors thus wasting all those nice reinforcement pts. Flamers are the ideal unit to summoning turn 2-6. As they don't need a number bonus to do extra damage, and at those pts odds are you don't have to worry about screens.
Also we haven't had any big tournaments, and in my book the only tournament data that really matters is the big ones. Only because in 40k you don't do any best of 3s or play enough opponents. So success in small tournaments can come down to silly things. For instance in alot of small tournaments the top 3 or 4 plays are just the 1st place guy from round 2 that won round 3, and then the 2nd place guy could be some one who lost his first game, and got paired against two not quite so good list in rounds 2 and 3. As such only big events or leagueswhere you get a good number of games to make a big difference between winning list and losing list. Currently, have seen anything that meets either of those criteria.
I was actually wondering if a good play would be to drop in a 30-man Pink Horror squad to clear out screen units, followed by one or more Bloodletter bombs the following turn that can then charge the stuff that was behind the screens. Obviously to ensure killing the screen you'd want a Changecaster (or whatever the TzHerald is called now) casting Flickering Fire on them. Perhaps Flamers could be used instead of Horrors for screen-busting, but it seems like their damage output is way too swingy for their cost. At the same time, 30 Pinks is probably too many points for a unit that will kill cheap chaff and then get slaughtered by return fire (235 points for 30 with banner and instrument).
blackmage wrote: bloodletter has same issue you said with flamers, a competent player wont let you charge their precious elite units, if you dont have a way to rid of screens you are fethed up and if you have you can use flamers as well, i agree that 30 letters usually are more dangersous btw.
There are almost always 2 units within charge range. If so - Letters are INSANE. Charge 1, but charge both instead. Kill 1, surround 2. Opponent can't shoot, can't retreat, he can just cry. On their turn you mop up the other unit or get charged. In the first case, you're free to charge again on turn 2 and you've basically won.
And if he has a blob of 30 as a single unit screen. Guess what, you have 3 turns to bomb AND you have pinks to kill it just in case. ALSO, if push comes to shove, you can crack the screen by fighting twice. Like seriously, if your opponent can shoot the letters after they deepstruck - you fkd up or failed the charge roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mmimzie wrote: Flamers work best when comboed with a bnig splitting horror unit. The flamers let you convert the reinforcement points you don't use after the first turn of recieving fire, into good damage that doesn't require a unit strength bonus.
I still think bloodletters are abit unrealistic
I literally have no idea what you just said. How do flamers use reserve points?
Also bloodletter bomb is a proven concept as it does well in tournaments.
If you are using spliting horrors. You need reinforcement points to bring blues and brimstones. Which is a rather good strategy and is also preforming well. However, some times they ignore your horrors thus wasting all those nice reinforcement pts. Flamers are the ideal unit to summoning turn 2-6. As they don't need a number bonus to do extra damage, and at those pts odds are you don't have to worry about screens.
Also we haven't had any big tournaments, and in my book the only tournament data that really matters is the big ones. Only because in 40k you don't do any best of 3s or play enough opponents. So success in small tournaments can come down to silly things. For instance in alot of small tournaments the top 3 or 4 plays are just the 1st place guy from round 2 that won round 3, and then the 2nd place guy could be some one who lost his first game, and got paired against two not quite so good list in rounds 2 and 3. As such only big events or leagueswhere you get a good number of games to make a big difference between winning list and losing list. Currently, have seen anything that meets either of those criteria.
Well first you have to use the split rule, which is questionable already. I used it last time as I presented horrors as the only valid target with:
split, morale autopass, +1 to invul strat, 6+++ with changeling... and it was still just "pretty good". For 4 CP... eh... Summoning is dead to me. Why risk summoning something when you can just put it in the list to gain CP. Also summoning is the same as Deepstrike but worse so what's the point. Flamers suck with deepstrike, they'll suck even more when summoned due to limited range.
And who's this "we". We just had the LVO. Plenty of experimental lists in top 50 (that's just 1 loss and 5 wins) with bloodletter bombs. It's the biggest tournament in the history of 40, right? 500 people. With the most experienced competition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: I was actually wondering if a good play would be to drop in a 30-man Pink Horror squad to clear out screen units, followed by one or more Bloodletter bombs the following turn that can then charge the stuff that was behind the screens. Obviously to ensure killing the screen you'd want a Changecaster (or whatever the TzHerald is called now) casting Flickering Fire on them. Perhaps Flamers could be used instead of Horrors for screen-busting, but it seems like their damage output is way too swingy for their cost. At the same time, 30 Pinks is probably too many points for a unit that will kill cheap chaff and then get slaughtered by return fire (235 points for 30 with banner and instrument).
That's literally the strat I used to crush an RTT. No idea why you'd give pinks the instrument or even the banner as you'd probably want to autopass anyway. Also, 4++ is really annoying to kill
ZergSmasher wrote: I was actually wondering if a good play would be to drop in a 30-man Pink Horror squad to clear out screen units, followed by one or more Bloodletter bombs the following turn that can then charge the stuff that was behind the screens. Obviously to ensure killing the screen you'd want a Changecaster (or whatever the TzHerald is called now) casting Flickering Fire on them. Perhaps Flamers could be used instead of Horrors for screen-busting, but it seems like their damage output is way too swingy for their cost. At the same time, 30 Pinks is probably too many points for a unit that will kill cheap chaff and then get slaughtered by return fire (235 points for 30 with banner and instrument).
Also pinks are also just killy <.< why not drop 2 units of pinks and then shoot twice with your two units of pinks would probably end up being more damage.
That or you clear the screen ,but your oponent can move more screen in the way or move what they are screening back. It's not like your fighting a stationary target. Not to mention layered screens are definitly a thing.
For instaqnce the UKGT's winning list had 60 models worth of screen. One pink horror squad is gonna average just about 30 dead cultist. You still ahve more cultist in front of those oblits. This also isn't considering that the rhinos in the list couldn't also be appart of that screen, and you are definitely gonna struggle to take that rhino out of the picture with just 1 squad of pink horrors.
The bloodletter suck only because they don't let you be a good player, they let your opponent be a bad player. There's little you as a player can do to bring them to bare, but your opponent can do lots of things to stop the bloodletter, and many of those things aren't giving your opponent to much of a hard time.
I think beserkers/blood angel jet pack stuff/shining spears/nid stuff/ ork mobs are the current champs when it comes to doing melee damage. This is because you can get them more reliably where you want them to go. Nothing hits harder than bloodletter, but getting them there takes so much work that you suffer because of it, and assuming you do actualy get them there offs are the blood letters are dead on your opponent turn because the are basicly guardmen that cost almost twice as much against no ap weapons.
And who's this "we". We just had the LVO. Plenty of experimental lists in top 50 (that's just 1 loss and 5 wins) with bloodletter bombs. It's the biggest tournament in the history of 40, right? 500 people. With the most experienced competition.
How many??? and list for the highest rank. As i recall i didn't see any in the top 25.
rvd1ofakind wrote: In LVO it's acceptable to be top 50 as it is SO many people. 1 loss is still top 50. 27, 28, 38, 42 had bombs
Top 25 only had 3 chaos players anyway.
A couple of those eother can't or don't use the blood letter bomb due to not having eother a banner or even a chaps daemons detachment. . However one does exist so there's that.
Reguardless I think the lack of control woth the blood letter bomb makes it less favorable when compared to stuff like daemon Prince or greater daemon spam. Or things like multiple pink horror drop. Or other melee armies as they just give you more control on your ability to connect in combat.
I can most certainly see the bloodletters bomb being good when you hit, but I still contend that it I don't like that ypur opponent has more control over your blood letter bomb than you do.
I'm sorry, Greater Daemon spam?????
Whuaaaaat.
Also everyone used the Letter bomb.. what else did they do - footslog them? rofl The banner is probably not written or whatever.
Anywho, I have no idea why is it so hard to drop the bomb. All you need is 2 units within charge range. Done and done. If you can't make that happen in 3 turns by killing your opponent's screen with pinks then I don't even.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was actually wondering if a good play would be to drop in a 30-man Pink Horror squad to clear out screen units, followed by one or more Bloodletter bombs the following turn that can then charge the stuff that was behind the screens. Obviously to ensure killing the screen you'd want a Changecaster (or whatever the TzHerald is called now) casting Flickering Fire on them. Perhaps Flamers could be used instead of Horrors for screen-busting, but it seems like their damage output is way too swingy for their cost. At the same time, 30 Pinks is probably too many points for a unit that will kill cheap chaff and then get slaughtered by return fire (235 points for 30 with banner and instrument).
Also pinks are also just killy <.< why not drop 2 units of pinks and then shoot twice with your two units of pinks would probably end up being more damage.
That or you clear the screen ,but your oponent can move more screen in the way or move what they are screening back. It's not like your fighting a stationary target. Not to mention layered screens are definitly a thing.
For instaqnce the UKGT's winning list had 60 models worth of screen. One pink horror squad is gonna average just about 30 dead cultist. You still ahve more cultist in front of those oblits. This also isn't considering that the rhinos in the list couldn't also be appart of that screen, and you are definitely gonna struggle to take that rhino out of the picture with just 1 squad of pink horrors.
The bloodletter suck only because they don't let you be a good player, they let your opponent be a bad player. There's little you as a player can do to bring them to bare, but your opponent can do lots of things to stop the bloodletter, and many of those things aren't giving your opponent to much of a hard time.
I think beserkers/blood angel jet pack stuff/shining spears/nid stuff/ ork mobs are the current champs when it comes to doing melee damage. This is because you can get them more reliably where you want them to go. Nothing hits harder than bloodletter, but getting them there takes so much work that you suffer because of it, and assuming you do actualy get them there offs are the blood letters are dead on your opponent turn because the are basicly guardmen that cost almost twice as much against no ap weapons.
And who's this "we". We just had the LVO. Plenty of experimental lists in top 50 (that's just 1 loss and 5 wins) with bloodletter bombs. It's the biggest tournament in the history of 40, right? 500 people. With the most experienced competition.
How many??? and list for the highest rank. As i recall i didn't see any in the top 25.
I love massed pinks... if I wasn't trying to be a Nurgle purist... I'd probably try a Horror Bomb!
rvd1ofakind wrote: I'm sorry, Greater Daemon spam?????
Whuaaaaat.
Also everyone used the Letter bomb.. what else did they do - footslog them? rofl The banner is probably not written or whatever.
Anywho, I have no idea why is it so hard to drop the bomb. All you need is 2 units within charge range. Done and done. If you can't make that happen in 3 turns by killing your opponent's screen with pinks then I don't even.
That's what I'm saying 1-3 turn turns making space. Sitting on you hands eith almost 300pts waiting doing nothing, while you could just be scoring more kills with consistant damage out put from units actualy doing stuff. For instance an extra 30man pink horror unit putting out shooting for that 1-3 extra turns would likely get you further than more bloodletters.
As for the greater daemons. They are pretty kills. Between an Loc, GUO, and Bloodthirster. Most armies struggle to kill one let alone two when given the proper armor and spells (incaporiale, robes, armor of scorn, miasma of pestilance). Then after that one turn of shooting you kill so much of there army the greater daemons can't be stopped. Combo that with a thick unit of reinforced splitting horrors, and you have alot to cut through and not enough time to do it, and nurgling coverage.
In ITC folks struggle to grab secondaries. At best they go for kingslayer. Then they struggle for much or anything else, while i snatch up recon, and whatever else. In none ITC its just a tough but to crack.
I'm headed to a small local event in about 2 weeks time. It's going to be 2k points with 8 players using the BRB missions, no forgeworld. The meta consists mainly of Space Marines, Space Wolves, Admech, and Orks. I just wanted to see what people think I will struggle the most with.
This is my list:
Batallion:
DP w/wings of Tzeentch - Daemon Spark / Impossible Robe / Malefic Talon / Flickering Flames
The Changling
JakeSiren wrote: I'm headed to a small local event in about 2 weeks time. It's going to be 2k points with 8 players using the BRB missions, no forgeworld. The meta consists mainly of Space Marines, Space Wolves, Admech, and Orks. I just wanted to see what people think I will struggle the most with.
This is my list:
Batallion:
DP w/wings of Tzeentch - Daemon Spark / Impossible Robe / Malefic Talon / Flickering Flames
The Changling
Spearhead:
Fluxmaster - Boon of Change / Flickering Flames
5 x Burning Chariots of Tzeentch - Chanting Horrors
Spearhead:
The Blue Scribes
4 x Burning Chariots of Tzeentch - Chanting Horrors
Looks hillarious. I dont know if it will destroy the beta, but you'd do decently well at best with the pink horrors carrying you. i'd consider swaping the tzneetch dp into one one of the other detachments and making it TSons. It can know most the same spells at about the same casting value (mostly harder to cast). But you get two spells isntead of one. Give all the warlord traits and such to the fluxmaster instead.
So my first game went quite well! It was a fun 2v2 at 1500 points for each player. I didn't use any DPs or KOS. I actually used an herald on an exalted seeker chariot as my warlord. I gave it the Fatal Caress trait since it has so many attacks and it worked out quite well. She brought down some giant flying Tyranid thing, my Seekers destroyed a big blob of Genestealers. Sadly my two blobs Daemonettes were annihilated by a first turn death company charge but I have to say, Quicksilver Swiftness was definitely underestimated. It let my second daemonette squad attack first against the second death company squad so they were able to contribute and made them easier to clean up. Even though they had a 4+ invuln they really did some work.
The hellflayers did some real work as well, as did my regular heralds on seeker chariots. Secondary to performing well.. it was a lot of fun and easy to crack jokes about how my psychic powers worked and what was happening when my chariots crashed into people. I managed to kill 3 death company marines from my seeker chariot on the charge from the mortal wounds it deals out, almost 4 but he saved with a FNP. I also brought along 2 solo Fiends. They seemed so insignificant next to everything else they were ignored but with Quicksilver Swiftness again coming into play, one of them got to murder 2 out of 3 Raveners that had charged it! Then I killed the third with the tail next turn. They got us a couple points because they were so quick (the fiends) as well as helping in shutting down a psychic power with their -1 bubble.
Slaanesh is a lot of fun! Now I'm even more inspired to finish modeling my DPs and my Forgeworld KOS.
Tzeentch newbie looking for some tips:
I've been having some trouble dealing with an Biel-Tan Eldar player.
The guy is drafting mostly infantry and elites. Lots of Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers and Warp Spiders make up the bulk of his army.
The high amount of shots he's able to output wears down my 4++ dudes quickly, and his high mobility makes target saturation hard to achieve. I find I spend a lot of the game chasing after his blob as it retreats into terrain that's harder for me to maneuver.
He uses a warlock + Farseer combo who are able to shut down a large part of my casting as well while easily get off their own spells with the full re-rolls, getting my juicy targets taken down by doom.
He deploys 50% of his army in DS, only puts down stuff like Dire Avengers and dark reapers on the board.
--
So really my question is: What troops should I focus on when fighting stuff like this? I usually deploy 1-3 DP's + 1-3 Exalted Flamers, with 20xPinks and 50xbrims being the bulk of my army, supported by staff heralds where the +1 STR is needed.
I'm considering getting another group of 20xpinks + maybe going with Blue Scribes & Chariot Herald to counter his spellcasting.
But maybe the problem lies in how I'm playing. I never know when to Hide and grab objectives and when to attack :p
I would suggest investing in some Nurglings - their deployment rules mean they are super effective at blocking deep strikers.
Otherwise as you have already suggested, add more Pinks to increase your Dakka. Make a 30 man unit and deep strike them in. If you can't get close enough to fight then shooting is your only other option.
Also look at using spells that you can cast while keeping your caster outside of 24" of the enemy psyker if you are having difficulties with denial. For example, casting Flickering Flames on your pink horrors. And don't forget you can always add +1 to the Horror's invulnerable save. It would reduce your casualties by 1/3rd.
Depending on how lucky you feel you can always try for the crapshoot - Treason of Tzeentch on one of his characters. You can back it up with Gaze of Fate and a command point reroll.
The Blue Scribes and Chariots are unlikely to reduce spellcasting. They have a 12" and 9" range respectively. However, they can force your opponent to manoeuvre into unfavourable positions if they need to get spells off.
As to what to focus on, I find whatever will reduce the most shooting from the enemy. So have a look at his army and work out which units put out the most pain, and how likely you are to kill them.
Pink Horrors with a +1 str will wound Eldar infantry on a 3+. With Flickering Flames they are now wounding on a 2+
The other thing you can do is avoid being shot in the first place. Have a read of this. It might give you some ideas on what you can do.
*re-reads post* Sorry for the stream of consciousness, but hopefully that gives you some ideas.
JakeSiren wrote: I would suggest investing in some Nurglings - their deployment rules mean they are super effective at blocking deep strikers.
Otherwise as you have already suggested, add more Pinks to increase your Dakka. Make a 30 man unit and deep strike them in. If you can't get close enough to fight then shooting is your only other option.
Also look at using spells that you can cast while keeping your caster outside of 24" of the enemy psyker if you are having difficulties with denial. For example, casting Flickering Flames on your pink horrors. And don't forget you can always add +1 to the Horror's invulnerable save. It would reduce your casualties by 1/3rd.
Depending on how lucky you feel you can always try for the crapshoot - Treason of Tzeentch on one of his characters. You can back it up with Gaze of Fate and a command point reroll.
The Blue Scribes and Chariots are unlikely to reduce spellcasting. They have a 12" and 9" range respectively. However, they can force your opponent to manoeuvre into unfavourable positions if they need to get spells off.
As to what to focus on, I find whatever will reduce the most shooting from the enemy. So have a look at his army and work out which units put out the most pain, and how likely you are to kill them.
Pink Horrors with a +1 str will wound Eldar infantry on a 3+. With Flickering Flames they are now wounding on a 2+
The other thing you can do is avoid being shot in the first place. Have a read of this. It might give you some ideas on what you can do.
*re-reads post* Sorry for the stream of consciousness, but hopefully that gives you some ideas.
knas wrote: Tzeentch newbie looking for some tips:
I've been having some trouble dealing with an Biel-Tan Eldar player.
The guy is drafting mostly infantry and elites. Lots of Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers and Warp Spiders make up the bulk of his army.
The high amount of shots he's able to output wears down my 4++ dudes quickly, and his high mobility makes target saturation hard to achieve. I find I spend a lot of the game chasing after his blob as it retreats into terrain that's harder for me to maneuver.
He uses a warlock + Farseer combo who are able to shut down a large part of my casting as well while easily get off their own spells with the full re-rolls, getting my juicy targets taken down by doom.
He deploys 50% of his army in DS, only puts down stuff like Dire Avengers and dark reapers on the board.
--
So really my question is: What troops should I focus on when fighting stuff like this? I usually deploy 1-3 DP's + 1-3 Exalted Flamers, with 20xPinks and 50xbrims being the bulk of my army, supported by staff heralds where the +1 STR is needed.
I'm considering getting another group of 20xpinks + maybe going with Blue Scribes & Chariot Herald to counter his spellcasting.
But maybe the problem lies in how I'm playing. I never know when to Hide and grab objectives and when to attack :p
Using the brims as area denial is a good start for sure. Nurglings however would work better in this instance, especially in the numbers your talking about taking.
Follow that up with target saturation. He has dark reapers and avengers on the board. If that's all he has and you cover the board in nurglings he won't be able to drop his other stuff anywhere other than his own area.
Now reapers will have long range but avengers are only 18", you should be able to easily drop your own squad of 20 pinks into range of them. Drop a tzeentch Herald (forget it's new name) with Flickering flames you should be able to wipe a bunch of avengers out, don't forget you can split fire.
I also like taking flamers, in small squads of 3 they are cheap and fast but can really hurt base infantry, but if your opponent wants to waste reaper shots on flamers more power to them. They may only get one round of shooting, but it should be one really good round.
Other than that, I would basic troop spam him. Multiple squads of seekers, or bloodletters, anything that has speed and hitting power so you can make him hurt once he hits would be how I would go about it. Deamons are glass cannons, but you can really do a lot of damage if things get there.
Alternatively you could go super pack, deamon princes, skull cannons, maybe a greater deamon of tzeench with the impossible robe and the -1 wound taken warlord trait for survivability and psychic shenanigans.
Quick rules check needed to make sure I'm not missing anything. I know the CD stratagems were FAQ'd to only work on Daemon faction keyword units, but what about the Daemonic Loci that CD Characters get as a CD Detachment bonus?
As an example, as far as I can see, if I have a Nurgle CD detachment, the Locus of Virulence would also affect Death Guard and CSM Nurgle Daemon units including things like bloat drones and oblits to give their attacks +1 damage on a 6+ to wound. Could work well for units with a high volume of shots or attacks.
Yeah, if you’re dropping an Obliterator bomb then a DS Poxbringer is a nice investment of a CP. (You’ve got your two Nurgling units and Plaguebearers to screen, and Epidemius to troll, right?)
Bonus: tag in a tri-lobe of Blight-haulers and a Bloat-drone or two. And a DP (or a teleporting Terminator Lord) for more hits.
Also works on Mortarion. (What’s the exact flow when you’ve got Virulent Blessing and Blades of Putrefaction and a Locus active?)
If you decide to trilobe haulers then I'd go with guo and bell not Mortarion. Just my opinion . If you decide to go termies heavy then Mortarion can be a great value. If you decide to go gnarlmaw then pcb are the way. Just saying some guides
Same goes for troop choise guo plague ! Typhus pox ! Csm cultist and I mean heavy !!!
Continuing my hopes to build somewhat of a flying circus list, how does the following look and what would you add for about 400 points to make it 2000:
Chaos Daemons Battalion:
Khorne DP with wings, skullreaver
**Need another HQ for here**
Plaguebearers x30
Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3
Chaos Daemons (or Death Guard) Battalion:
Nurgle DP with wings, 2 talons
Nurgle DP with wings, 2 talons
Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3
Thousand Sons Supreme Command Detachment:
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
I count this around 1560 points. I still need another HQ for the daemon battalion. I was tossing around the idea of a large squad of 20 khorne hounds and Karanak. Thoughts on the army as a whole?
Screamers, Plague Drones, or Flesh Hounds to screen the Princes would be my suggestion. Your "Tax" HQ should always be a Herald of whatever flavor. I'd say Nurgle since you got the PB blob.
Hmm, not sold on Nurgle herald. I suspect a Tzeentch one on disc or chariot souping up those TSDPs will deliver more bang - that’s a safety net on seven spells for 1CP.
Karanak and Hounds is decent if they’re in a pure Khorne Detachment so they all get re-rolls to charge. Without, Karanak is just a slightly better FH that pays a HQ tax.
Karanak is an interesting case- since he did get a points drop with the codex, is he actually viable now? He gets 2 deny attempts per turn, so could be useful just for defense against psykers (more efficient and better protected than Flesh Hounds due to character rules). I recently purchased him and am wanting to give him a try.
Also, on a side note: What base should he be on? He came with a WHFB cavalry base, oddly enough. Should he be on a 50mm round like other Flesh Hounds?
**Chaos Space Marines Battalion:**
Slaanesh DP - 2 Talons, Wings. Emperor's Children, Stimulated by Pain Warlord Trait
**Need an HQ that is 92 points or less for here**
**Thousand Sons Supreme Command Detachment:**
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
92 points left over for the last CSMHQ slot. I could move one Nurgle DP to the CSM battalion and get a Bilepiper for my big blob of Plaguebearers as well.
ZergSmasher wrote: Karanak is an interesting case- since he did get a points drop with the codex, is he actually viable now? He gets 2 deny attempts per turn, so could be useful just for defense against psykers (more efficient and better protected than Flesh Hounds due to character rules). I recently purchased him and am wanting to give him a try.
Also, on a side note: What base should he be on? He came with a WHFB cavalry base, oddly enough. Should he be on a 50mm round like other Flesh Hounds?
Well nick nanavati has a good opinion on him. So I'd say Karanak is at least viable. And you have to base stuff on bases they came with so. F it, I say :p
**Chaos Space Marines Battalion:**
Slaanesh DP - 2 Talons, Wings. Emperor's Children, Stimulated by Pain Warlord Trait
**Need an HQ that is 92 points or less for here**
**Thousand Sons Supreme Command Detachment:**
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
TSDP with wings, 2 talons
92 points left over for the last CSMHQ slot. I could move one Nurgle DP to the CSM battalion and get a Bilepiper for my big blob of Plaguebearers as well.
That’s not a bad idea. One CD DP gets you Fleshy Abundance, and a CSM one would still have access to Miasma - but couldn’t use it on the Plaguebearers, which is a nice combo.
What do you need the Cultists for? CP generation? You’ve got an ok amount. Screening? Those Plaguebearers can cover your arses fairly well, and you may well outpace them come turn 2 (especially since they’re the squishiest targets for anti-infantry firepower). Objective camping? They’re as likely to give an attack unit something to charge. Drop them and the spare points would get a third Obliterator unit to fill out a Spearhead. (Might want to give them a different Mark - you can only Endless Cacophony once a turn, after all, and they can get re-rolls off a different DP to project your firepower farther. Or, if you make them Slaaneshi as well, the DP gets Emperors’ Children trait - not likely game-winning, but can be handy.)
Also if you’re building a CSM-CD coalition, you might like to ask for advice in the general Chaos tactica - there’s a fair few people there into ‘soup’ lists and my advice comes from a non-tourney style
So while my list had had good success in local meta(6-1 in testing so far) I feel it is missing something, and as I can't find down what it is I come to here for general comments and maybe some points I didn't notice that are totally obvious (it happens!).
2 x Tsons princes(one is warlords with +1 to cast and helm of the third eye)
3 x 10 cultists
2 x changecasters
2 x 30 pinks
3 x 3 nurglings
2 x bloodmasters
1 x 30 bloodletters w/ instrument and icon
2 x 19 bloodletters
1851/2000
Plan is to start the entire khorne force, one squad of pinks w/ accompanying caster in DS. Take board space during deployment with nurglings. And cover back objectives and DS denial with cultists. Princes hover around the first squad of pinks until second drop than one of them goes to support the second unit. Pink squad that start on board uses last 2 cp and reinforcement pts for splitting and auto pass morale to brunt first turn shooting. Remember to deploy third eye helm prince first to get the cp gain off anything opponent does pre game.
My first turn drops second pinks and if there is a spot the 30 man letter squad to punch a hole into the enemy lines. If opponent is good at DS denial than hold letters until turn two and use turn one to blow all chaffe units off the board for space next Turn drop. Letters multi tap drop while keeping mid board with pinks. What has worked best is actually dropping the big unit to bomb turn 2 and the smaller ones double drop turn 3.
Princes are there for re roll and counter assault on the pinks, one rolls with death hex and doombolt (or bolt of change depending on enemy) while the other runs warptime and diabolical strength.
Oh the letters are 19 because my local meta runs itc and squads of 20 give up 2 vp. And you lose the 20tg letter on ow 90% of the time anyway so it hasn't really felt like I gave up the. Bonus as I never got it anyway. And the bit squads icon is tuned into a banner with a cp before the game
Ecdain wrote: So while my list had had good success in local meta(6-1 in testing so far) I feel it is missing something, and as I can't find down what it is I come to here for general comments and maybe some points I didn't notice that are totally obvious (it happens!).
2 x Tsons princes(one is warlords with +1 to cast and helm of the third eye)
3 x 10 cultists
2 x changecasters
2 x 30 pinks
3 x 3 nurglings
2 x bloodmasters
1 x 30 bloodletters w/ instrument and icon
2 x 19 bloodletters
1851/2000
Plan is to start the entire khorne force, one squad of pinks w/ accompanying caster in DS. Take board space during deployment with nurglings. And cover back objectives and DS denial with cultists. Princes hover around the first squad of pinks until second drop than one of them goes to support the second unit. Pink squad that start on board uses last 2 cp and reinforcement pts for splitting and auto pass morale to brunt first turn shooting. Remember to deploy third eye helm prince first to get the cp gain off anything opponent does pre game.
My first turn drops second pinks and if there is a spot the 30 man letter squad to punch a hole into the enemy lines. If opponent is good at DS denial than hold letters until turn two and use turn one to blow all chaffe units off the board for space next Turn drop. Letters multi tap drop while keeping mid board with pinks. What has worked best is actually dropping the big unit to bomb turn 2 and the smaller ones double drop turn 3.
Princes are there for re roll and counter assault on the pinks, one rolls with death hex and doombolt (or bolt of change depending on enemy) while the other runs warptime and diabolical strength.
Oh the letters are 19 because my local meta runs itc and squads of 20 give up 2 vp. And you lose the 20tg letter on ow 90% of the time anyway so it hasn't really felt like I gave up the. Bonus as I never got it anyway. And the bit squads icon is tuned into a banner with a cp before the game
Comments and criticism welcome and encouraged.
If personally drop the 2 bloodmasters and the 2x19 blood letter. To some small degree your spending all those points on a reroll fron your blood letter charge. You'd do more dmg/pts by bringing 3 squad of 20 pink than those bloodletters and all thier tax.
ITC wise that's an easy reap ypur giving out therw. 3 cultist and 1 19 squad of blood letters is about as easy to kill as 40 guardmen.
From there the change caster blood master will make head hunter friend happy. My daemons list currently is angel very hard toward head hunkering, and is be so happy seeing those 4 free pts walking around the table.
If your set on taking the khorne detachment. I'd wonder if maybe you might consider a skull reaper DP. Reroll 1s for the bloodletters and more threat to vehicles in your list.
Anywho my thoughs take or leave them as you desire
JakeSiren wrote: I'm headed to a small local event in about 2 weeks time. It's going to be 2k points with 8 players using the BRB missions, no forgeworld. The meta consists mainly of Space Marines, Space Wolves, Admech, and Orks. I just wanted to see what people think I will struggle the most with.
This is my list:
Spoiler:
Batallion:
DP w/wings of Tzeentch - Daemon Spark / Impossible Robe / Malefic Talon / Flickering Flames
The Changling
Spearhead:
Fluxmaster - Boon of Change / Flickering Flames
5 x Burning Chariots of Tzeentch - Chanting Horrors
Spearhead:
The Blue Scribes
4 x Burning Chariots of Tzeentch - Chanting Horrors
So the event ran yesterday. I played against Primaris marines, T'au, and tank heavy marines with an Knight.
So what I discovered:
Burning Chariots can not deal with armour from range. Their strength lies in when they lock a vehicle in combat. Lampreys bite accounted for at least as much damage as their shooting attacks - if not more. This means dragging the combat into the enemies turn gives you a significant damage bonus. Pink horrors certainly helped me keep vehicles locked into combat where needed.
Chariots are fast enough to capture any objective that you draw from the maelstrom deck. In addition it is easy to move them towards the enemies flank and take their army apart piece meal.
The unit of brimstones were ignored allowing them to hold onto an objective in the back without issue.
I pulled off an interesting maneuverer against the T'au player. I deep struck in my unit of 30 horrors in. They wiped out 2 squads of 10x fire warriors (split the shots half and half, had +1str and +1 to wound for a 2+ to wound). The horrors then declared a charge and rolled a 12! I spread the horrors out with the following goals:
a) Prevent his deep strikers from landing anywhere useful
b) To tie up as many units as I reasonably could
I was mostly successful in A - I prevented him from being able to claim an objective in the back field that he needed. And while I got into combat with quite a few units, it was rather ineffective. I was unable to surround any model to lock them in and he had a special rule allowing his units to fall back and shoot (not sure what it was specifically though).
The horrors were made super resilient however. I was lucky with the blue scribes and got boon of change for +1T. I also used warp surge on the horrors in the T'au shooting phase to give them a 3++ which meant they wasted firepower trying to remove them as a threat.
Over all the list performed well. The biggest weakness was against an all vehicle army. The match was long table edges and it took me a while to cover the distance. Unfortunately the Pink Horrors weren't particularly useful in locking enemy vehicles in combat due to whiffing their charge rolls.
Opinions on Feculant Gnarlmaws? Are they playable? They don't need to be game-changing since my group isn't that cut-throat but I don't want to waste money on a model that's utter trash.
So the event ran yesterday. I played against Primaris marines, T'au, and tank heavy marines with an Knight.
So what I discovered:
Burning Chariots can not deal with armour from range. Their strength lies in when they lock a vehicle in combat. Lampreys bite accounted for at least as much damage as their shooting attacks - if not more. This means dragging the combat into the enemies turn gives you a significant damage bonus. Pink horrors certainly helped me keep vehicles locked into combat where needed.
Chariots are fast enough to capture any objective that you draw from the maelstrom deck. In addition it is easy to move them towards the enemies flank and take their army apart piece meal.
The unit of brimstones were ignored allowing them to hold onto an objective in the back without issue.
I pulled off an interesting maneuverer against the T'au player. I deep struck in my unit of 30 horrors in. They wiped out 2 squads of 10x fire warriors (split the shots half and half, had +1str and +1 to wound for a 2+ to wound). The horrors then declared a charge and rolled a 12! I spread the horrors out with the following goals:
a) Prevent his deep strikers from landing anywhere useful
b) To tie up as many units as I reasonably could
I was mostly successful in A - I prevented him from being able to claim an objective in the back field that he needed. And while I got into combat with quite a few units, it was rather ineffective. I was unable to surround any model to lock them in and he had a special rule allowing his units to fall back and shoot (not sure what it was specifically though).
The horrors were made super resilient however. I was lucky with the blue scribes and got boon of change for +1T. I also used warp surge on the horrors in the T'au shooting phase to give them a 3++ which meant they wasted firepower trying to remove them as a threat.
Over all the list performed well. The biggest weakness was against an all vehicle army. The match was long table edges and it took me a while to cover the distance. Unfortunately the Pink Horrors weren't particularly useful in locking enemy vehicles in combat due to whiffing their charge rolls.
Thanks for the report! You have convinced me to assemble my chariots as I've been running the Exalted's on food ever since!
Sim-Life wrote: Opinions on Feculant Gnarlmaws? Are they playable? They don't need to be game-changing since my group isn't that cut-throat but I don't want to waste money on a model that's utter trash.
I use one (brought in via Slimux) pretty often. It effectively (in my list) acts a Plaguebearer slingshot. I drop it first turn so that on turn 2 my units will be in range and then my plaguebearers are moving 7+D6+1 and then a 2D6+1" charge on top of that. 2 Units of 30 man Plaguebearers in that envelope cover a HUGE chunk of the board and allow me to exert pressure far quicker than my opponent wants me to.
I'm having a doubles game on Wednesday with a mate I haven't seen in a while; it'll be IG + AM VS DG + Chaos.
I'll be running a WE battalion, an AL battalion and a Daemon battalion. It's the daemon battalion I want to ask about though since I have yet to run daemons this edition, the battalion contains:
Khorne Daemon Prince
Herald of Khorne
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot
Unit of 30 Bloodletters
Unit of 10 Bloodletters
Unit of 20 Horrors
My plan is deep strike the entire battalion in except from the 10 man unit of bloodletters, that way the troops have +1S when they deepstrike in, the Bloodletters can re-roll 1s to hit and the horrors can get +1 to wound. I'm also wondering whether to upgrade the Bloodletter's icon to get a 3d6 charge when they come in but that would mean spending 7CP before the game even starts.
Played against new Tau with my Khorne Daemonkin list. Double Battalion, 3x20 Bloodletters, 3x8 Berzerkers, Rhinos, Dark Apostle, Exalted Champ, Daemon Prince with Skullreaver, Herald of Khorne, Blood Slaughterer, 17 Flesh Hounds. His list had, and I don't play Tau so work with me here, 4x10 Fire Warriors, a Cold Star, an Ethereal, a Big Stealth Suit Guy -1 to hit from shooting, A Yvnar (???), a Storm Surge, two Cadre Fireblades, and the drone port moving fortification thing. His detachments were: super heavy, fortification, and battalion.
It was dicey at first but because he basically had no screen and wanted to move up the board with the suits and tango with me, I was able to tie up all the big bois with my Flesh Hounds and then roll in with the Berzerker and Daemon Prince to mop up. We called it bottom of turn 3 when it was clear I was going to table him. I convinced him he needed some chaff, namely some Kroot to scout up and deny deep strike. He's also getting two more suit guys who he said are amazing now, don't recall the names.
I'm going to drop my Berzerker units down to 5 man units, drop the Flesh Hounds to 15, and bring another Prince with the sword artifact. I'd drop the Blood Slaughterer (because he gets destroyed first turn every single game) but I love the model too much and when he does make it into combat he completely destroys everything.
Yeah, you've got to use the full potential of grawlmaws. You can't just take them for the cover alone, as there's enough stuff that ignores it that you're wasting your points (and broadcasting your intended landing zone) when the markerlights and dark reapers arrive.
I intend in using the Gnarlmaws as landing zone for units of Oblits and a Nurgle herald. Then, if they can also work to Sling shot some plague drones, daemon princes, or even a nurgle marked Heldrake, it's a plus.
So I'm playing in a local league and I'm running mono-Khorne for narrative reasons. For the same narrative reasons I have to run a Bloodthirster of some sort (Skarbrand included). I'm otherwise free to choose whatever options I want, but if I want CSM allies they have to be World Eaters, again for narrative reasons.
Within these confines, what do I run? Letterbombs are obvious, but do I run Skarbrand or an Insensate Rage BT? Are Obliterators still worth it if they can't use cacophony?
mrhappyface wrote: I'm having a doubles game on Wednesday with a mate I haven't seen in a while; it'll be IG + AM VS DG + Chaos.
I'll be running a WE battalion, an AL battalion and a Daemon battalion. It's the daemon battalion I want to ask about though since I have yet to run daemons this edition, the battalion contains:
Khorne Daemon Prince
Herald of Khorne
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot
Unit of 30 Bloodletters
Unit of 10 Bloodletters
Unit of 20 Horrors
My plan is deep strike the entire battalion in except from the 10 man unit of bloodletters, that way the troops have +1S when they deepstrike in, the Bloodletters can re-roll 1s to hit and the horrors can get +1 to wound. I'm also wondering whether to upgrade the Bloodletter's icon to get a 3d6 charge when they come in but that would mean spending 7CP before the game even starts.
Any suggestions/advice?
I think the icon is mandatory - you've already invested 2 CP and circa 210 poitns - and to fail the charge would be nothing short of brutal. Bloodletters are squishy so its all or nothing. If you fail the charge you will almost certainly be using the 1 CP you "saved" to reroll which is not necessarily going to work either. Other ways of running it are possible if you buy the risk/reward but doesn't seem a consistent recipe for the desired outcome.
Sim-Life wrote: Opinions on Feculant Gnarlmaws? Are they playable? They don't need to be game-changing since my group isn't that cut-throat but I don't want to waste money on a model that's utter trash.
I ran one at a event on the weekend and yea, if you build a list to take advantage they are golden.
orkswubwub wrote: I think the icon is mandatory - you've already invested 2 CP and circa 210 poitns - and to fail the charge would be nothing short of brutal. Bloodletters are squishy so its all or nothing. If you fail the charge you will almost certainly be using the 1 CP you "saved" to reroll which is not necessarily going to work either. Other ways of running it are possible if you buy the risk/reward but doesn't seem a consistent recipe for the desired outcome.
Aye, in the game today I did decide to pay the extra CP for 3d6" and still failed the charge so I had to pay another CP to re-roll.
I've already posted something similar in the chaos tactica, but has anyone had any success with summoning this edition. Im thinking of adding a tzeentch patrol to my fallen army (counts as alpha legion). I was thinking herald and 20 pinks that can potentially be brought in with DotW and then have some points in reserve for summoning exalted flamers (eventually other things when I get the models) as needed.
Seems like their arent many people on this forum using summoning, or at least people arent talking about using it.
What has your experience with summoning been this edition?
Summoning has been a very big "meh" for me. It's useful in 2 situations:
1) As a way to bypass detachment restrictions
2) As something to spend reinforcement points on when your opponent doesn't shoot your horrors.
Otherwise you are better bringing what you want to summon to help with threat saturation and generating CP.
JakeSiren wrote: Summoning has been a very big "meh" for me. It's useful in 2 situations:
1) As a way to bypass detachment restrictions
2) As something to spend reinforcement points on when your opponent doesn't shoot your horrors.
Otherwise you are better bringing what you want to summon to help with threat saturation and generating CP.
That is a good point. I was planning on buying 2x flaming chariots and turning that into 2x E flamers, 2x heralds, 6x blue horrors and 4x screamers.
So I can always run these models in the patrol. Or trial how summoning goes. I guess E flamers are pretty mobile and with the character key word, they are pretty easy to hide from being targeted.
Are screamers any good? Looking at their rules they seem prettt good on paper. Maybe slightly too expensive and fragile.
Ecdain wrote: So while my list had had good success in local meta(6-1 in testing so far) I feel it is missing something, and as I can't find down what it is I come to here for general comments and maybe some points I didn't notice that are totally obvious (it happens!).
2 x Tsons princes(one is warlords with +1 to cast and helm of the third eye)
3 x 10 cultists
2 x changecasters
2 x 30 pinks
3 x 3 nurglings
2 x bloodmasters
1 x 30 bloodletters w/ instrument and icon
2 x 19 bloodletters
1851/2000
Plan is to start the entire khorne force, one squad of pinks w/ accompanying caster in DS. Take board space during deployment with nurglings. And cover back objectives and DS denial with cultists. Princes hover around the first squad of pinks until second drop than one of them goes to support the second unit. Pink squad that start on board uses last 2 cp and reinforcement pts for splitting and auto pass morale to brunt first turn shooting. Remember to deploy third eye helm prince first to get the cp gain off anything opponent does pre game.
My first turn drops second pinks and if there is a spot the 30 man letter squad to punch a hole into the enemy lines. If opponent is good at DS denial than hold letters until turn two and use turn one to blow all chaffe units off the board for space next Turn drop. Letters multi tap drop while keeping mid board with pinks. What has worked best is actually dropping the big unit to bomb turn 2 and the smaller ones double drop turn 3.
Princes are there for re roll and counter assault on the pinks, one rolls with death hex and doombolt (or bolt of change depending on enemy) while the other runs warptime and diabolical strength.
Oh the letters are 19 because my local meta runs itc and squads of 20 give up 2 vp. And you lose the 20tg letter on ow 90% of the time anyway so it hasn't really felt like I gave up the. Bonus as I never got it anyway. And the bit squads icon is tuned into a banner with a cp before the game
Comments and criticism welcome and encouraged.
You are already running a skittle of troops 10 or more, including 3 units of 10 cultists which are just begging for reaper. In addition you are running 2x 19 model bloodletter units - if you don't give up reaper your opponent is playing wrong. That said - I don't really deny that you will lose the x1 bloodletter on the charge - so the difference between 19 and 20 bloodletters is somewhat artificial. However, if you acknowledge that your list is still primed for reaper, you could consider expanding some of the letters above 20 with some list smithing.
So the best doing combo right now is epidemius crew: 60-90 bearers, all 3 heralds, 2 gnarlmaws, nurglings and dg engines + poxwalker shananigans. And a letter bomb is also there.
rvd1ofakind wrote: So the best doing combo right now is epidemius crew: 60-90 bearers, all 3 heralds, 2 gnarlmaws, nurglings and dg engines + poxwalker shananigans. And a letter bomb is also there.
Nothing wrong with throwing nine Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors Obliterators into there
List I done quite well with was this (no duplicate detachments)
Battalion
2 x Heralds
Bile piper
2 x 30 plague bearers, icon and instrument
2 x 29 plague bearers, icon and instrument
2 x 3 Nurglings
Supreme Command
Epi
3 x Princes, wings and talons
Scrivener
Fort detachment
1 x Tree
Nice and simple, bilepiper was key in my games when rolling those 1's.
I am super happy with Adepticon showing the power of Nurgle in general, and the usage of Trees. I love how many of these lists are DG/Nurgle centered, which is incredible.
Anyone tried to play with the blue scribes and can pass judgment on them?
They look pretty darn good on paper (especially that with a lucky roll they double down on a spell, and that's usually impossible), and with safe automatic casting you really can't get a bad result, only a non-result (and that can happen to any caster really)
But I still have some reservations...not sure if they are worth the effort or not...
I have been running a Alpha legion epidemious list. It’s worked pretty well for me. The core of the list is a Daemon battalion supported by Deathguard and or alpha legion and Deathguard. What I’ve learned.
Gunlines facing 20 infiltrating possessed get wiped out. While possessed are pretty lack luster in most roles, they benefit from both the daemons spell line and the spell lines of CSM and DG. They help support the tally and are really tough to dislodge once they make it into melee. I feel like they are hit or miss and since 20 of them is 440 pts, I feel like the cultists are a better option. Cutltists are so much cheaper, and by spreading out their shooting amongst my foes chaff I can whittle units down to just a few men making it easier for other units to score the kill for the tally. They also spread out to multi charge more units and benefit from tide of traitors. However, facing a tau gunline I got solidly mowed down recently. Not sure how to deal with 2 commanders and a riptide.
I’m not sold on chaos space marine daemon princes. Lacking disgusting resilience is pretty big. I almost feel like dropping the prince and including a sorcerer with a jump pack to act as a support unit would be more effective. Being able to cast 2 spells instead of one and being only 2/3 the price of the prince seems like a better deal.
Defiler are not all that great but they serve a dual purpose of guarding epidemious and for 1 cp their shooting or melee ability can be pretty stellar. They are also very punchy in melee.
Everyone says I should add a tree to the list. Not sure.
Nurglings are stellar but I have yet to see plague bearers really rock the house. Usually they soak up a ton of fire and just die. In one game they helped me win vs a IG armored company. They fought their way to a baneblade and put a wound on it while tying up numerous tanks. They rock.
Epidemious
Spoilpox scrivener
30 plague bearers plus instrument deepstriking in for 2 cp 2 nurgling squads for area Denile early on
Flysworn (alphalegion Nurgle) spearhead.
3 squads of obliterators
Daemonprince
Sometimes a defiler with lascannon and scourge or 20 possessed and or 40 cultists. .
kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote: Has anyone had any joy with Soul Grinders or are they as bad as they look on paper?
I ran one last week, spent the CP to deep strike it and had it as Khorne. It made it's charge into a sicarian and a razorback. The +4 to hit, and D3 or D6dmg is a bit rough. If the warp claw was a flat 2, I think it would find a bit more use. It wasn't as bad as I had thought, as it was the final straw that made my opponent throw in the towel, but it wasn't as good as I had hoped either. 12 attacks with the warp claw is fun to roll, as was 6 with the iron claw, but statistics were not in my favor.
I'll be running them again. They are bad, from a competitive standpoint. A soul grinder in a tournament list will probably never happen. Casual games, they are OK. Honestly, they are still about as good as they used to be, not good enough for a tournament, but not so bad you give up the game if you bring one. The lack of options is what hurts it right now, you HAVE to have phlegm. If I could get a cheaper grinder without phlegm, I would do it every time. Also, no more baleful torrent or gaze stinks pretty hard.
@sennacheribMade
My PB blobs haven't really rocked the house, but a blob of 30 is very hard to move and make for a really decent wall to trap pretty much whatever you want. If you want to waste miasma on them, a -2 to hit makes them nearly impossible to kill. I'm planning on trying 2x30, and dropping a tree in range so they can fall back and charge over and over. It wont win tournaments, but it will frustrate just about anyone when their whole army is in CC with PB.
BoomWolf wrote: Anyone tried to play with the blue scribes and can pass judgment on them?
They look pretty darn good on paper (especially that with a lucky roll they double down on a spell, and that's usually impossible), and with safe automatic casting you really can't get a bad result, only a non-result (and that can happen to any caster really)
But I still have some reservations...not sure if they are worth the effort or not...
The problem I have with them is the lack of +1 aura, (which is the main reason for including heralds) so for 100ish points all you get is 1 random spell a turn and a weak psychic defence (not an area we struggle with). Combine this with zero shooting or assualt threat and it doesn't add up to a good deal for me.
BoomWolf wrote: Anyone tried to play with the blue scribes and can pass judgment on them?
They look pretty darn good on paper (especially that with a lucky roll they double down on a spell, and that's usually impossible), and with safe automatic casting you really can't get a bad result, only a non-result (and that can happen to any caster really)
But I still have some reservations...not sure if they are worth the effort or not...
The problem I have with them is the lack of +1 aura, (which is the main reason for including heralds) so for 100ish points all you get is 1 random spell a turn and a weak psychic defence (not an area we struggle with). Combine this with zero shooting or assualt threat and it doesn't add up to a good deal for me.
I've actually found the Blue Scribes quite useful myself. The big upsides are:
1) Area denial for enemy psykers. They will actively avoid where the Blue Scribes are on the chance that they will fail the spell they want to cast and lose it.
2) Better chance of you denying enemy powers when they are in range of the Blue Scribes. Did they roll a 7? Well it's a 6 now and you only need to roll a 7 rather than an 8.
3) Good for shutting down close combat psykers - they have a good movement stat, so can get close enough to an enemy in combat.
4) Pairs well with Burning Chariot with Chanting Horrors, and Fiends of Slaanesh. If you can work it, a net -3 to cast will make your opponent rethink their casting choices.
Does it make sense to bring a "value" herald of slaanesh? at 66 points and 1 psychic ability it isn't that awful. Much worse than the prior malefic lord spam but still a relatively cheap pyscker for smite / deny.
However, the real point I am suggesting is the ability to use the slaanesh strat after heroically intervening to lower attacks by 1 - for example against shining spears - khorne berzerkers - blood angel chargers - etc. It seems relatively meta for 66 points and 1 cp. Bonus is that in the right environment the slaanesh symphony of pain is quite reliable - goes of on a 6 with 18 inch range and IF you hit a juicy with it -1 to hit can significantly impact a core enemy unit (such as a primach, shining spear spam, cultist blobs, etc.).
I am discussing from a competitive level and not a local hobby shop fun to play point - I don't think you would take the daemon detachment as slaanesh as generally the slaanesh models aren't great - but mix this in with maybe even a nurgle detach or other and it could be decent? The detachment benefits for pure daemons are good but dont' seem to be earth shattering.
orkswubwub wrote: Does it make sense to bring a "value" herald of slaanesh? at 66 points and 1 psychic ability it isn't that awful. Much worse than the prior malefic lord spam but still a relatively cheap pyscker for smite / deny.
However, the real point I am suggesting is the ability to use the slaanesh strat after heroically intervening to lower attacks by 1 - for example against shining spears - khorne berzerkers - blood angel chargers - etc. It seems relatively meta for 66 points and 1 cp. Bonus is that in the right environment the slaanesh symphony of pain is quite reliable - goes of on a 6 with 18 inch range and IF you hit a juicy with it -1 to hit can significantly impact a core enemy unit (such as a primach, shining spear spam, cultist blobs, etc.).
I am discussing from a competitive level and not a local hobby shop fun to play point - I don't think you would take the daemon detachment as slaanesh as generally the slaanesh models aren't great - but mix this in with maybe even a nurgle detach or other and it could be decent? The detachment benefits for pure daemons are good but dont' seem to be earth shattering.
As you kind of allude to it's a sort of meta type of thing. Not to mention there are a few other questions to be asked here.
Is your herald of slannesh going to survive it's brave track into melee combat??? i don't know :/ seems converning for them for sure.
Then we have to consider. Why not just spend more points just killing the unit beforei t gets a chance to hit you in the first place??? What are we bringing to bare in melee that isn't able to maybe attack first??? Blood letters get into the fight first and pinks are already dead if the yare fighting in the first place. Greater daemons are so big that your slannesh herald can struggle to heroic intervine around the base to make it into combat.
Also this slannesh herald needs to make it to the front line in the first place. How does the herald pull this off. Are you deep striking the herald??? Or is the herald hoofing it and advancing trying to keep pace with the very tippy front of your lines.??
I tried it for abit and i just felt like the herald didn't provide enough that i couldn't just get from having other models. As you say it's a meta choice and it's something thats only as good as the current tournament meta, but even in those good situations i wonder if its worth it.
orkswubwub wrote: Does it make sense to bring a "value" herald of slaanesh? at 66 points and 1 psychic ability it isn't that awful. Much worse than the prior malefic lord spam but still a relatively cheap pyscker for smite / deny.
However, the real point I am suggesting is the ability to use the slaanesh strat after heroically intervening to lower attacks by 1 - for example against shining spears - khorne berzerkers - blood angel chargers - etc. It seems relatively meta for 66 points and 1 cp. Bonus is that in the right environment the slaanesh symphony of pain is quite reliable - goes of on a 6 with 18 inch range and IF you hit a juicy with it -1 to hit can significantly impact a core enemy unit (such as a primach, shining spear spam, cultist blobs, etc.).
I am discussing from a competitive level and not a local hobby shop fun to play point - I don't think you would take the daemon detachment as slaanesh as generally the slaanesh models aren't great - but mix this in with maybe even a nurgle detach or other and it could be decent? The detachment benefits for pure daemons are good but dont' seem to be earth shattering.
I sometimes use a herald of slaanesh on steed, it's only 16 more pts than the regular herald but it gets 14" move, auto advance 6", the ability to advance and charge, plus 2 attacks from the steed itself. It's definitely shot to tanks to keep them occupied, or finishing off infantry units
I see it more as a defensive option against alpha strike.
Most units that want to melee you will come to you really and the ability to drop those attacks down a profile can be significant. Probably most relevant on turns 1-2.
The model itself may not do much else but throw out a smite or a -1 to hit depending on what is in range - and I would be ok with the 66 point insurance policy. I have to play it a bit - as the radius on the strat is a huge concern I think.
I do see the value from the steed in the sense that it lets you choose where the pyschic abilities go - but then the relative investment is much larger for what you may be getting (depending on how ambitious you are about maximizing the actual melee attack value of the unit)
Has anyone done well with pure Khorne Daemons. I'm trying to debate on doing pure Khorne Daemons or mixing Daemons with World Eaters.
(right now I only have a start collecting Khorne Daemons, DP with wings, and another box of blood letters, I'm looking to build between 1000, 1500 points)
Khorne does really good deepstriking horde, but I feel it needs a little support. Chaos Marine daemons synergize really well with it. A CSM daemon prince and a Sorcerer (yes yes how awful) with some ranged antitank like Obliterators can shore up the Khorne weaknesses.
Badablack wrote: Khorne does really good deepstriking horde, but I feel it needs a little support. Chaos Marine daemons synergize really well with it. A CSM daemon prince and a Sorcerer (yes yes how awful) with some ranged antitank like Obliterators can shore up the Khorne weaknesses.
Aye, this is exactly what I added to my WE:
A base 1k pts of WE (berzerkers, terminators and characters)
AL support detachment to add another 3CP, some Oblits and psychic support
A Daemons support detachment with a 30 man Bloodletters unit supported by a Daemon Prince and a Herald (I'm also experimenting with whether another unit of Bloodletters or a unit of Horrors is better to deepstrike in with.
I'm running WE/Khorne Demons as well, although I've gone for a full-melee army (and restricting myself to World Eaters, so no pesky psykers) just to see how well it can do without shooting support (read: Obliterators). It's not going to dominate higher-tier lists, but between a Bloodthirster, two Daemon Princes and three Bloodletter Bombs there's a lot of fast melee threats, and a bunch of Cultists can easily provide screening and Command Points at a modest price.
I also run a Khorne Daemonkin army (Daemons/CSM soup) and it is a fantastic and fun army. Often times I find although on paper it's redundent to bring Bezerkers AND Bloodletters, the bloodletters will always get more fire directed on them, while your party vans can roll up the battlefield unharmed.
Also, take Skull Cannons. They're legit great now.
vaklor4 wrote: I also run a Khorne Daemonkin army (Daemons/CSM soup) and it is a fantastic and fun army. Often times I find although on paper it's redundent to bring Bezerkers AND Bloodletters, the bloodletters will always get more fire directed on them, while your party vans can roll up the battlefield unharmed.
This is very true; after I brought in my Bloodletter bomb down in my opponents face one game, they counter deep struck behind my Bloodletters with most of their army. Suffice to say, I think they regretted putting so much fire into the Bloodletters when two party vans were parked not too far away.
Hey my dudes. New CSM player here. My planned army lacks much CC. (Only Abby and a dp). I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in a min squad of bloodletters or demonettes to summon as a counter charge unit. The idea I read early on in this thread was to wait until locked in combat, summon and charge the rear, which mitigates the movement penalty and losses from shooting. Just wondering what the deamon tactica community thinks of this strat. And, if a good idea, the best way to make it work.
Am slowly making my way through this thread a page or so at a time, currently page 20ish. So forgive me if this has been covered in detail already.
Also wanted to confirm that units kept in the summoning pool dont count towards force org slots.
the_Jakman wrote: Hey my dudes. New CSM player here. My planned army lacks much CC. (Only Abby and a dp). I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in a min squad of bloodletters or demonettes to summon as a counter charge unit. The idea I read early on in this thread was to wait until locked in combat, summon and charge the rear, which mitigates the movement penalty and losses from shooting. Just wondering what the deamon tactica community thinks of this strat. And, if a good idea, the best way to make it work.
Am slowly making my way through this thread a page or so at a time, currently page 20ish. So forgive me if this has been covered in detail already.
Also wanted to confirm that units kept in the summoning pool dont count towards force org slots.
Cheers guys.
I wouldn't summon. I'd grab a small daemon detachment with a unit of 30 Bloodletters and a Herald of Khorne + whatever to fill out detachments: summoning is too unreliable and you lose access to daemon stratagems and bonuses.
Summoning is only worth it in non-Matched play where it’s free units, or in static play with foresight. In proper balanced play and in reactive situations, it’s really weak, only really done when you’ve taken Horrors and they’re not getting shot at so you spend your Reinforcement Points on something else. Summoning in the rear of a unit you’re fighting is also very unreliable as it depends on there being more than 18” between your opponent’s chargers and other units, like their gunline or drop pods etc.
For a counter-charge unit, something fast and choppy is good. Flesh Hounds have a long reach and low profile that can hug cover. For 1CP they can be a single unit Detachment, or they can be added to a Herald and some Nurglings in a Patrol, or a static gunline can summon them whilst the enemy is approaching. Fiends can also be handy (tag a Land Raider and it’s basically out of the game). When I have a list with a Chaos Lord overseeing two units of Havocs and some Cultists, I’ll often keep both to hand.
lindsay40k wrote: Summoning is only worth it in non-Matched play where it’s free units, or in static play with foresight. In proper balanced play and in reactive situations, it’s really weak, only really done when you’ve taken Horrors and they’re not getting shot at so you spend your Reinforcement Points on something else. Summoning in the rear of a unit you’re fighting is also very unreliable as it depends on there being more than 18” between your opponent’s chargers and other units, like their gunline or drop pods etc.
For a counter-charge unit, something fast and choppy is good. Flesh Hounds have a long reach and low profile that can hug cover. For 1CP they can be a single unit Detachment, or they can be added to a Herald and some Nurglings in a Patrol, or a static gunline can summon them whilst the enemy is approaching. Fiends can also be handy (tag a Land Raider and it’s basically out of the game). When I have a list with a Chaos Lord overseeing two units of Havocs and some Cultists, I’ll often keep both to hand.
I'd say if your running splitting horrors. Having some flamers on hand to summon instead should your opponent ignore the horrors is probably a good idea, but otherwise i agree with you wisdom.
Thanks guys. I might just stick to my original plan of having 3 spawn as a detatchment tax/deep strike blocking/counter charge. Points wise i could squeeze in a squad of 10 bloodletters but not much more. 30+ a herald would force me to cut stuff from the main part of my army. I appreciate the input
When splitting horrors how many points do you put aside and how many times do you generally split them. Do you just keep on splitting until your opponent gets sick of trying to take them out?
Do people even still really save the points for splitting now? Doesn't seem like anyone I play with really bothers with blue or brims much since the new book. Maybe a few brims for obj holders but not as a Pink split
Dew wrote: Do people even still really save the points for splitting now? Doesn't seem like anyone I play with really bothers with blue or brims much since the new book. Maybe a few brims for obj holders but not as a Pink split
Brims are all but useless at this point, aside from ovjectice holders as you said. But even then, deepstriking pinks to hold it is still better, since they can fight off contestents.
They take up space for 75% fewer points than Cultists and have higher Ld, dying slower to Heavy Bolters or Bolt/Guass Rifles and speedbumping deep insertion forces.
Two units of them provide a unit of thirty good Troops with the CP they need to DS and an extra one besides.
the_Jakman wrote: Hey my dudes. New CSM player here. My planned army lacks much CC. (Only Abby and a dp). I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in a min squad of bloodletters or demonettes to summon as a counter charge unit. The idea I read early on in this thread was to wait until locked in combat, summon and charge the rear, which mitigates the movement penalty and losses from shooting. Just wondering what the deamon tactica community thinks of this strat. And, if a good idea, the best way to make it work.
Am slowly making my way through this thread a page or so at a time, currently page 20ish. So forgive me if this has been covered in detail already.
Also wanted to confirm that units kept in the summoning pool dont count towards force org slots.
Cheers guys.
I wouldn't summon. I'd grab a small daemon detachment with a unit of 30 Bloodletters and a Herald of Khorne + whatever to fill out detachments: summoning is too unreliable and you lose access to daemon stratagems and bonuses.
Summoned units don't count towards force org slots. For list building purposes, they are points you can use towards summoning anything you want.
People have a lot of concerns about summoning, but I think it's an underrated tactic. There's no doubt a Daemons detachment with a Herald and a max-sized unit of Bloodletters will perform better on the tabletop in most situations.
But summoning is not about maximizing the efficiency of units, it's about opportunity. There are situations where summoning works well and can make or break a game. Being locked in combat is one of them, there's no disadvantage to summoning when you can't move. Having a character exposed is another, it's great when you can call in a screen while you do something else.
Most often, I am summoning 4th or 5th turn, and it's usually to clear something off an objective. I'm usually summoning 10 or 20 Bloodletters (I've gotten 30 a total of 2 times,) and their job is to threaten Heavy Infantry. If I have 2 characters, I summon 2 units.
If they get the charge, great, otherwise they take shots - no one wants to charge Bloodletters. They don't get the morale bonuses you get with other CSM infantry, nor are they subject to the 3rd turn reserve rules in 8th edition. So they create a nice late-game surprise for someone who thought they had objectives locked up.
In terms of the best way to make it work - the basic odds of summoning 20 Bloodletters are about 66%, the odds of summoning 10 are around 95%. Keep a command point for rerolls and you improve your changes to around 80% for 20.
Seen some conflicting opinions on Chaos Demons and Battleforged armies. To get the benefit of characters providing a Loci, the detachment must all be the same alignment. Is that correct? Does that locus apply to models of the same alignment from other detachments? Are the loci worth including tax troop choices (other than nurglings) for?
The wording is very clear in both the "Loci" general rule and each specific Locus rule. You need a pure Tzeentch detachment to get the Tzeentch locus on your Tzeentch characters; only the characters in the pure detachment get the locus; any TZEENTCH DAEMON in range of the Character benefits, regardless of detachment or other Factions.
I have a Patrol of Tzerald and Pinks and a Battalion of Thousand Sons, led by DP. Thousand Sons DP is near Tzerald. TSDP now benefits from locus.
Asura Varuna wrote: Seen some conflicting opinions on Chaos Demons and Battleforged armies. To get the benefit of characters providing a Loci, the detachment must all be the same alignment. Is that correct? Does that locus apply to models of the same alignment from other detachments? Are the loci worth including tax troop choices (other than nurglings) for?
Yes - need a pure faction deamon allegiance detachment to gain loci
Yes - to benefit from loci only need daemon and matching allegiance keywords to benefit from loci, irrespective of detachments.
Maybe- depends on your build and if the loci will really help.
Asura Varuna wrote: Seen some conflicting opinions on Chaos Demons and Battleforged armies. To get the benefit of characters providing a Loci, the detachment must all be the same alignment. Is that correct? Does that locus apply to models of the same alignment from other detachments? Are the loci worth including tax troop choices (other than nurglings) for?
Yes - need a pure faction deamon allegiance detachment to gain loci
Yes - to benefit from loci only need daemon and matching allegiance keywords to benefit from loci, irrespective of detachments.
Maybe- depends on your build and if the loci will really help.
Basically breaks down to the following IMO:
Khorne: Meh for Bloodletters (they have the 3d6 banner), but super awesome for everything else.
Tzeentch: mostly useless. You are unlikely to roll high, and you don't want to be in combat for the most part.
Nurgle: can be useful. Stacks nicely with virulent blessing, but does slow the game down as you need to roll wounds one at a time.
Slaanesh: Super useful IMO. It helps get key units into combat t1 (looking at seekers and chariots, Daemonettes are SOL)
The Loci are plain aura abilities that affect all <DEITY> DAEMONS. So, the question is, are they worth it?
A Nurgle Battalion is a no-brainer. Plaguebearers and Nurglings are great space-fillers, Poxbringers bring good powers that are perfectly complimented by the Locus and Epidemius is great if you’re going full Nurgle. If you’re going CSM Daemonkin, a Poxbringer is a great partner to Oblits. Lack of a mounted Herald limits their ability to support other CSM Daemon units - except Epidemius. There’s good options for an Outriders, but the Herald will probably hang out with other units it can keep pace with. A Bell GUO from a pure detachment can do scary stuff with Blight-haulers.
Khorne detachments are great. Everything bar the Skull Cannon loves re-rolling charges. Battalions are like a budget version of Kraken Genestealer spam. Outriders give DTW coverage and Flesh Hound are pretty useful screening units that can eat modest Troops. Vanguards, not so much; TBH I expect most bloodcrushers are being run as mounted heralds - whose Loci are again really good for Daemonkin. Re-rolling charges on Warptimed Warp Talons or Decimators is horrific. And Lords of Skulls should always be taking a Jugger Herald from a Khorne Detachment for walkies. Lasherfiends are as good here as they are feeding Epidemius.
Tzeentch Battalions are brilliant because a large PH unit is a brilliant screen clearer, BsH are cheaper space fillers than Cultists, and the Pinks want a Herald to buff their strength anyway; a mounted Herald can also hang out with Magnus and Sorcerers on Discs and Daemon Princes and burn a CP to super-charge their psychic. The purity Locus is a tiny tasteless cherry on top of a magnificent cake. They can also fill a Vanguard really well, and again the two Flamer units really like to hang out with a Herald but the purity Locus is again of very little benefit. A mounted Herald from a pure detachment can do niche stuff with Possessed and Lasherfiends.
Slaanesh Battalions are difficult to justify instead of a Khorne one. Re-rolling 3D6 charges is far, far, far better for a deep strike horde, that benefits little from charging after advancing. Outriders are good; Seekers and Hellflayers *do* like to charge after advancing, and heralds on steeds are still good support units, so there’s that. If you’re taking, say, a Soulgrinder, and don’t intend to babysit it with a Herald, there’s things to be said for making it Slaaneshi and taking a couple of chariots and a mounted Herald to fill out a Spearhead. I’ve seen Supreme Command detachments of mounted Heralds that support Daemonkin, which looks like a viable niche. Good way to add a Fiends unit to tag Land Raiders without committing to a Vanguard, too.
Anyone find a use for the Sloppity Bilepiper? I'm finding it difficult to keep him in range of the nurglings he is supposed to support because he is giving them the ability to move faster without himself getting that benefit. Even the leadership bubble is hard to use due to his size.
sfshilo, bilepiper doubles the value of any daemon icons you have, letting you fish for ones on morale checks. Solid for spawning plaguebearers or resurrecting plague drones
ALso when using the bilepiper with nurgligns you can deep strike him in or, more realisticly, just use a base or two of nurgligns to string back and tough his aura for the advance and charge.
So this past weekend I went against by buddy's Tau as Mono- Nurgle Daemons....
I got wrecked... especially by "for the greater good" (assisted overwatch).... anyone have any tips vs that kind of army?? He pretty much shut down my entire army since I am mostly melee, and he destroyed half my 30 pb units from overwatch alone
kilfrg7864 wrote: So this past weekend I went against by buddy's Tau as Mono- Nurgle Daemons....
I got wrecked... especially by "for the greater good" (assisted overwatch).... anyone have any tips vs that kind of army?? He pretty much shut down my entire army since I am mostly melee, and he destroyed half my 30 pb units from overwatch alone
Remember that a unit can't fire Overwatch or ftGG again if they've already ftGG'd once that turn. Once something tough but with not much damage output has charged, then send the rest of the forces in with no fear of overwatch.
kilfrg7864 wrote: So this past weekend I went against by buddy's Tau as Mono- Nurgle Daemons....
I got wrecked... especially by "for the greater good" (assisted overwatch).... anyone have any tips vs that kind of army?? He pretty much shut down my entire army since I am mostly melee, and he destroyed half my 30 pb units from overwatch alone
Remember that a unit can't fire Overwatch or ftGG again if they've already ftGG'd once that turn. Once something tough but with not much damage output has charged, then send the rest of the forces in with no fear of overwatch.
I think problem was i didnt really have anything tough...
,
pretty much just had 3x30 pb units, and nurglings, rotigus and a DP. He cut one of my pb squads in half with OW and completely nuked my DP with a dude with 4 melta shots...
kilfrg7864 wrote: So this past weekend I went against by buddy's Tau as Mono- Nurgle Daemons....
I got wrecked... especially by "for the greater good" (assisted overwatch).... anyone have any tips vs that kind of army?? He pretty much shut down my entire army since I am mostly melee, and he destroyed half my 30 pb units from overwatch alone
Remember that a unit can't fire Overwatch or ftGG again if they've already ftGG'd once that turn. Once something tough but with not much damage output has charged, then send the rest of the forces in with no fear of overwatch.
I think problem was i didnt really have anything tough...
,
pretty much just had 3x30 pb units, and nurglings, rotigus and a DP. He cut one of my pb squads in half with OW and completely nuked my DP with a dude with 4 melta shots...
Rotigus should have eaten the charge and let the Plaguebearers swamp the rest of his infantry. And how did 4 melta shots bring down a Nurgle DP?
kilfrg7864 wrote: So this past weekend I went against by buddy's Tau as Mono- Nurgle Daemons....
I got wrecked... especially by "for the greater good" (assisted overwatch).... anyone have any tips vs that kind of army?? He pretty much shut down my entire army since I am mostly melee, and he destroyed half my 30 pb units from overwatch alone
Remember that a unit can't fire Overwatch or ftGG again if they've already ftGG'd once that turn. Once something tough but with not much damage output has charged, then send the rest of the forces in with no fear of overwatch.
I think problem was i didnt really have anything tough...
,
pretty much just had 3x30 pb units, and nurglings, rotigus and a DP. He cut one of my pb squads in half with OW and completely nuked my DP with a dude with 4 melta shots...
Rotigus should have eaten the charge and let the Plaguebearers swamp the rest of his infantry. And how did 4 melta shots bring down a Nurgle DP?
He hit3/4 of his shots. and i failedall of my saves.... and the shots did d6dmg each...
Hello,
I am an AoS player, I have an army Maggotkin of Nurgle
at wh40k I started playing with the army Dark Angels, ravenwing without talons. I thought to play the same like in AoS in 40k.
I have the following Nurgle figures on about 1000 points -
GUO - warlord, Psychic Power: Smite, Stream of Corruption, Bilesword, Nurglings, Plague flail
Daemon Prince - (Wings), Weapon: Hellforged sword, Psychic Power: Nurgle's Rot, Smite
Poxbringer - Psychic Power: Miasma of Pestilence
Nurgings
2 units of 10 Plaguebearers - icon, instrument
Plague drones - icon, instrument
946 points
Is it reasonable to play with them? single nurgle?
I don't care about the result, but I don't want to lose to zero. I will not buy others daemons to add to nurgle.
Is anyone else trying pure tzeetch demons? I am struggling to make a list I'm happy with, since almost everything would like to be deep struck but I'd also like to have some CPs for the really powerful in game stratagems we have access to (3++ saves and re-rolling psychic tests). I've been toying with the idea of a brigade, but struggle to put anything I'm happy with in fast attack or heavy support.
lindsay40k wrote: a mounted Herald can also hang out with Magnus and Sorcerers on Discs and Daemon Princes and burn a CP to super-charge their psychic.
If you're talking about Locus of Conjuration, it doesn't work on Thousand Sons characters.
FAQ wrote:Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons
uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit
with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon
Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the
Daemon Faction keyword.
^ there’s been discussion on this and the general consensus was that these Stratagems can only be played on DAEMON faction keyword units but their auras can affect any DAEMON unit. CSM Disc Sorcerers and DPs qualify.
Further discussion would probably be best held in YMDC.
lindsay40k wrote: ^ there’s been discussion on this and the general consensus was that these Stratagems can only be played on DAEMON faction keyword units but their auras can affect any DAEMON unit. CSM Disc Sorcerers and DPs qualify.
Could you point me to this discussion please ? I can't seem to find in YMDC.
I’m afraid I can’t, it was within here a few months back. FWIW I’d agree that RAW tend to favour your reading, but the RAI interpretation is that Loci affect all DAEMON units but can only be generated by DAEMON faction units.
lindsay40k wrote: I’m afraid I can’t, it was within here a few months back. FWIW I’d agree that RAW tend to favour your reading, but the RAI interpretation is that Loci affect all DAEMON units but can only be generated by DAEMON faction units.
I believe this is how it was handled at major tournaments as well such as LVO etc. Seems accepted loci are only generated by faction keyword (essentially those that are in the daemon codex and a few from FW) but apply to daemon units more general (oblits, mutilators, etc.). I believe this is closely aligned with how most psychic abilities work as well(?.e. tzeentch daemon flickering flames, daemonspark etc.).
And strats clearly cannot be used on those daemons who do not have the faction keyword - this is why there are no more deepstriking primarchs or mortarion walking around at 3++ - further interpretation is wishful thinking and you will not find a game (casual or competitive) that would open that debate - as it is quite explicit in the FAQ.
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the DaemonFaction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.
Is anyone else trying pure tzeetch demons? I am struggling to make a list I'm happy with, since almost everything would like to be deep struck but I'd also like to have some CPs for the really powerful in game stratagems we have access to (3++ saves and re-rolling psychic tests). I've been toying with the idea of a brigade, but struggle to put anything I'm happy with in fast attack or heavy support.
I feel your pain, bro . I've played mono-Tzinch army in 7-th and want to play it now, but it is very difficult to make it powerful enough to not feel yourself a masochist. The only thing I can think of being somewhat effective is a good old character spam: a battalion with 3 DPs (probably one or two with wings) and brimstones as a cheap troops choice and another battalion with Heralds on disks (or Flux-something they are called today) and probably a Blue Scribes/Changeling for fun, two units of brimstones and one 20-strong unit of Pink Horrors and 6-strong unit of flamers. You will be able to drop a wingless DPs, Herald, Pink Horrors and Flamers for 4 CP out of 9 you'll have, while advancing everything else towards a frontline. This way you can have a nice alfa-strike and be able to protect your heavy hitters (characters) by chaff units. And of course you'll have a lot of Smites at your disposal.
Haysup. I'm trying to rebuild my old 7th Edition armies from unsold remnants, but the only Daemon models I have are 10 Horrors, three Screamers, and a clutch of Hounds. Is there any way to make a competent 750pt army based on these models, or am I going to have to re-buy everything all over again?
BBAP wrote: Haysup. I'm trying to rebuild my old 7th Edition armies from unsold remnants, but the only Daemon models I have are 10 Horrors, three Screamers, and a clutch of Hounds. Is there any way to make a competent 750pt army based on these models, or am I going to have to re-buy everything all over again?
What you looking at doing? Daemon soup? Chaos Soup? A specific Daemon faction? A specific God with daemons and CSM elements? Something else?
I should think those models are useable. Screamers aren’t terrible, pretty frightening on a dense cover table where they can leapfrog between blind spots. Hounds provide competent charges and deny the witch coverage. A Khorne or Tzeentch HQ of some sort will complement one of those units well. Though I think you’re a ways off from 750pts, so there’s plenty of room to think where you’d like to specialise. (Horrors are pretty nasty when you take 20+ and have them jump out of the Warp & rendezvous with a Herald.)
Misque wrote: Hello,
I am an AoS player, I have an army Maggotkin of Nurgle
at wh40k I started playing with the army Dark Angels, ravenwing without talons. I thought to play the same like in AoS in 40k.
I have the following Nurgle figures on about 1000 points -
GUO - warlord, Psychic Power: Smite, Stream of Corruption, Bilesword, Nurglings, Plague flail
Daemon Prince - (Wings), Weapon: Hellforged sword, Psychic Power: Nurgle's Rot, Smite
Poxbringer - Psychic Power: Miasma of Pestilence
Nurgings
2 units of 10 Plaguebearers - icon, instrument
Plague drones - icon, instrument
946 points
Is it reasonable to play with them? single nurgle?
I don't care about the result, but I don't want to lose to zero. I will not buy others daemons to add to nurgle.
Very good start for 40k.. I pretty much always use Nurglings, Poxbringer, a CD Prince with the Corruption relic, and Plague Drones mixed in with whatever Secondary detachment I bring.
Misque wrote: Hello,
I am an AoS player, I have an army Maggotkin of Nurgle
at wh40k I started playing with the army Dark Angels, ravenwing without talons. I thought to play the same like in AoS in 40k.
I have the following Nurgle figures on about 1000 points -
GUO - warlord, Psychic Power: Smite, Stream of Corruption, Bilesword, Nurglings, Plague flail
Daemon Prince - (Wings), Weapon: Hellforged sword, Psychic Power: Nurgle's Rot, Smite
Poxbringer - Psychic Power: Miasma of Pestilence
Nurgings
2 units of 10 Plaguebearers - icon, instrument
Plague drones - icon, instrument
946 points
Is it reasonable to play with them? single nurgle?
I don't care about the result, but I don't want to lose to zero. I will not buy others daemons to add to nurgle.
For 1000 points I think it's a bit HQ heavy. I would advice ditching the GUO and getting more bodies (nurglings/PBs) or adding more units for a 1500 / 2000 list.
Is anyone else trying pure tzeetch demons? I am struggling to make a list I'm happy with, since almost everything would like to be deep struck but I'd also like to have some CPs for the really powerful in game stratagems we have access to (3++ saves and re-rolling psychic tests). I've been toying with the idea of a brigade, but struggle to put anything I'm happy with in fast attack or heavy support.
I feel your pain, bro . I've played mono-Tzinch army in 7-th and want to play it now, but it is very difficult to make it powerful enough to not feel yourself a masochist. The only thing I can think of being somewhat effective is a good old character spam: a battalion with 3 DPs (probably one or two with wings) and brimstones as a cheap troops choice and another battalion with Heralds on disks (or Flux-something they are called today) and probably a Blue Scribes/Changeling for fun, two units of brimstones and one 20-strong unit of Pink Horrors and 6-strong unit of flamers. You will be able to drop a wingless DPs, Herald, Pink Horrors and Flamers for 4 CP out of 9 you'll have, while advancing everything else towards a frontline. This way you can have a nice alpha-strike and be able to protect your heavy hitters (characters) by chaff units. And of course you'll have a lot of Smites at your disposal.
Yeah, I'm thinking double Battalion at a minimum. Character spam is tempting, but most of our characters are 'meh'. Demon princes are solid but heralds aren't doing much more than the +Str buff and Lords of Change lack the offensive ability make their cost a worth while investment.
I wonder if non-deep striking horrors are a viable option. 10 for 70 points seems reasonable and they still pump out 20 Str4 shots if they are near a herald and take a decent amount of fire to kill. 25 on foot is another option (175) but I think they could be a bit unwieldy.
Yeah, I'm thinking double Battalion at a minimum. Character spam is tempting, but most of our characters are 'meh'. Demon princes are solid but heralds aren't doing much more than the +Str buff and Lords of Change lack the offensive ability make their cost a worth while investment.
Lords of Change are really meh and they also can be targeted. That means they will be dead after the first opponent's shooting phase. But Heralds are not so useless as they seem to be. First they buff everyone around them, including DPs (and S8 is definitely a good thing to have for a melee-oriented model), they can buff PHs for +1 to-wound (that means wounding MEQ at 3+) and they have a long-range Smite that means they usually will start to kill from turn 1. And let's not forget that they are mobile and can move from one objective to another making Maelstrom missions if necessary. Of course they are not battle monsters, but can be useful at least.
I wonder if non-deep striking horrors are a viable option. 10 for 70 points seems reasonable and they still pump out 20 Str4 shots if they are near a herald and take a decent amount of fire to kill. 25 on foot is another option (175) but I think they could be a bit unwieldy.
Pinks are definitely seem to be interesting but I'm not really sure whether they are worth the price. Basically we have a GEQ with a better save and assault 2 las-gun for almost twice the price. With Herald nearby they turn into GEQ with a better save and an assault 2 bolter, but still will die like a flies with their T3 and 1W. They are also pathetic in close combat and can not shoot after falling back. And their restricted Smite is a joke .
AstraVlad wrote: Lords of Change are really meh and they also can be targeted. That means they will be dead after the first opponent's shooting phase.
Don't forget a few things though : a Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1dmg Warlord trait becomes a lot tougher, cutting Plasma damage by 66% and Lascannon by 47%. Denizens of the Warp will also deny your opponent a shooting phase to it.
It might not make its points back in a single turn, but its durability allows the "WarLord" of Change to deal respectable damage in 2 or 3 turns before going down. I think it even featured in a top 50 list at the AdeptiCon.
Don't forget a few things though : a Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1dmg Warlord trait becomes a lot tougher, cutting Plasma damage by 66% and Lascannon by 47%.
Well, possibly I should try him again. I have both LoCh and Kairos (though an old small models) since old times but never used them in 8-th.
Pinks are definitely seem to be interesting but I'm not really sure whether they are worth the price. Basically we have a GEQ with a better save and assault 2 las-gun for almost twice the price. With Herald nearby they turn into GEQ with a better save and an assault 2 bolter, but still will die like a flies with their T3 and 1W. They are also pathetic in close combat and can not shoot after falling back. And their restricted Smite is a joke .
I don't know about Dying like flies, 4++ makes then twice as hardy as cultists and thus less bothered by moral. It's no mean feat shifting 50+ Pinkies. Also Splitting is far from useless if your running lots of Pinks, keeping even 40 points aside will mean you can split out 10 (5 blue, 5 Brimies) warm bodies as and when you need them or summon a scoring unit if they don't get used. Yes they are screwed against assault units but elite units will get tart pitted and swarms will take a pounding from overwatch (and ideally shooting the turn before).
The WarLord of Change is an interesting proposition, uses warlord trait, uses an artifact, exposes your warlord and doesn't seem to have great damage output, but really takes a pounding and will hopefully take the pressure off any other high T units you have. I'll going to give one a go soon and see if it warrants it's points cost.
mrhappyface wrote:What you looking at doing? Daemon soup? Chaos Soup? A specific Daemon faction? A specific God with daemons and CSM elements? Something else?
Whatever works best with the models I have at 750pts, with a minimum of new model purchases (I'm redoing my Sisters and GSC too so my hobby budget is a little tight). I had some success with mono-God Tzeentch in 7th but it seems like that's no longer an option due to psychic nerfs and the fact Nurgle got promoted to 8th Edition posterboy.
Soup would be cool. I have some old 13th Company Grey Hunters kitbashed from the Black Legion and Berzerker boxes, they could be repainted to serve as CSM in a pinch.
lindsay40k wrote:I should think those models are useable. Screamers aren’t terrible, pretty frightening on a dense cover table where they can leapfrog between blind spots. Hounds provide competent charges and deny the witch coverage. A Khorne or Tzeentch HQ of some sort will complement one of those units well. Though I think you’re a ways off from 750pts, so there’s plenty of room to think where you’d like to specialise. (Horrors are pretty nasty when you take 20+ and have them jump out of the Warp & rendezvous with a Herald.)
Thanks for this. Tzeentch Herald-wise, what's the best to use? The Chariot always seemed excessive to me (and in 7th they were dreadful), and it costs an absolute bomb, but neither the Disc nor the footslogger seem particularly resilient next to it. Is there a reason to use the Chariot or is it better to save points and just take a walkie Herald?
BBAP wrote: Whatever works best with the models I have at 750pts, with a minimum of new model purchases (I'm redoing my Sisters and GSC too so my hobby budget is a little tight). I had some success with mono-God Tzeentch in 7th but it seems like that's no longer an option due to psychic nerfs and the fact Nurgle got promoted to 8th Edition posterboy.
Soup would be cool. I have some old 13th Company Grey Hunters kitbashed from the Black Legion and Berzerker boxes, they could be repainted to serve as CSM in a pinch.
Mono-daemons are a bit lack luster in my opinion but they work great as supplements to their corresponding God legions:
Plaguebearers and their characters bring some nasty, resilient chaff that can put out a lot of damage that work great with DG slow moving ranged barrages. It really works as a creeping artillery sort of army.
Bloodletter bombs work wonders as in your face, chaff clearing, distraction Carnifexes that give the rest of a Khorne legion army chance to move up the board unscathed and not have to worry about bubblewrap when you get there.
Tzeentch daemons add some speed and pile on the already ludicrous amount of chaff clearing options TS have.
Slaanesh Daemons work in the same sort of way Khorne Daemons do but for a semi-shooting army. The speedy daemons can hold advancing forces up quickly to allow EC salvos to do their work.
I'd definitely recommend just picking a God and making some soup.
Thanks for this. Tzeentch Herald-wise, what's the best to use? The Chariot always seemed excessive to me (and in 7th they were dreadful), and it costs an absolute bomb, but neither the Disc nor the footslogger seem particularly resilient next to it. Is there a reason to use the Chariot or is it better to save points and just take a walkie Herald?
If I have the points spare, I'll go for the Chariot for the extra movement, the situational -1 to cast and the extra toughness. The Chariot's mobility really helped me in a game not long ago when I needed to get smite on a tank to bring it down before it got repaired again, without having to dedicate a melee unit into bringing it down.
Personal opinions: Disc Herald is *great* for flying over to some deep striking Horrors and souping up their shooting, and can escape should they get entangled in a melee.
Chariot Herald is certainly viable as part of a Tzeentch rushdown; can fly along with a DP and Screamers, buffing their melee, and *contributing* to a brawl with *non-melee specialist* units.
It's not going to break a Terminator shieldwall, but if (like me) you build it because you like the model, you're not lumbered with something that's unviably overcosted *right now*.
Walking Herald is a lot less flexible than disc herald; if you're wanting to use its aura buff to enhance Horror shooting, and you don't spend a Command Point making it Deep Strike, you're effectively anchoring your landing zones for the Horrors. Best used as a summoning option in niche Chaos Space Marine lists IMO.
If you like the fast paced approach, I suspect it'd be quite possible viable to build a viable 750pt list of two Outriders detachments, one Khorne, one Tzeentch, with a Jugger Herald or Karanak leading the former and a flying Herald of some stripe leading the latter. A few Furies here and there to fill out six fast attack & cover the rear against deep strikes & break up the template of solid Hounds & Screamers, and that'd be an interesting rushdown list.
So I am getting back into 40K after a long hiatus (left around the start of 5th ed), and looking to get back in. I am looking to do a mixed Tzeentch list. I have some old daemons, some new Thousand Sons, and some WFB/AoS stuff that's now in 40K apparently. 2K is what is mainly played at my club, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around list building. Hoping for some example lists and general advice with my collection.
On the TS side I have:
Magnus the Red
2x Tzaangor Shamans
10x Scarab Occult Terminators w/ 2x Soulreapers (have the missile bits, but undecided on usefulness)
20x Tzaangors (melee variant)
6x Enlightened with bows
3x Enlightened with spears
Mutalith Vortex Beast
Daemons
Lord of Change w/ rod
Herald of Tzeentch w/ rod
The Changeling
Blue Scribes
20x Pink Horrors
30x Blue Horrors
30x Brimstone Horrors
6x Flamers
6x Screamers
2x Burning Chariots
Lastly I have a few more models that I might be able to get away with counts as (opinions welcome on that):
Ogroid Thaumaturge (thought he might make for a decent Tzeentch Daemon Prince)
Gaunt Summoner (hes on a 40mm, but I thought he might make a decent alternative for 2nd Tzeentch Herald)
40x Kairic Acolytes (they are on 32s. Might be able to run them as Cultists or less mutated Tzaangors?)
lindsay40k wrote: Personal opinions: Disc Herald is *great* for flying over to some deep striking Horrors and souping up their shooting, and can escape should they get entangled in a melee.
Chariot Herald is certainly viable as part of a Tzeentch rushdown; can fly along with a DP and Screamers, buffing their melee, and *contributing* to a brawl with *non-melee specialist* units.
It's not going to break a Terminator shieldwall, but if (like me) you build it because you like the model, you're not lumbered with something that's unviably overcosted *right now*.
Walking Herald is a lot less flexible than disc herald; if you're wanting to use its aura buff to enhance Horror shooting, and you don't spend a Command Point making it Deep Strike, you're effectively anchoring your landing zones for the Horrors. Best used as a summoning option in niche Chaos Space Marine lists IMO.
If you like the fast paced approach, I suspect it'd be quite possible viable to build a viable 750pt list of two Outriders detachments, one Khorne, one Tzeentch, with a Jugger Herald or Karanak leading the former and a flying Herald of some stripe leading the latter. A few Furies here and there to fill out six fast attack & cover the rear against deep strikes & break up the template of solid Hounds & Screamers, and that'd be an interesting rushdown list.
While it's true the on foot herald is slower than the disc herald. It's actualy not such a big deal??
If you string back 2 horrors from your block of horrors you'll make the difference of 6" movement the disc herald would have had. Also if you think of those 2 strung back horrors as appart of the price of of the foot herald vs the change caster, you are actually abit head in cost effectiveness. Now obvious the flying disc guy can actualy fly, so he can ignore alot of terrain in his way, but i've found infantry ignore about as much terrain as models with fly in most games if everyone is starting on the first floor.
I just started a mono-god (yes I know, shooting myself in the foot) Slaanesh (yes, I know, even worse) daemons army, and wanted to ask a couple of questions.
What inspired the army is Morathi - I wanted to play her model, but not learn AOS or play the rest of the Daughters of Khaine book. So now she's Slaanesh, and she's a Daemon Prince because that's literally the only Slaanesh model that can have wings (which is weird because they're supposed to be the fast ones, IIRC).
So, I 100% am using a daemon prince with wings.
The other model I absolutely want to use is Zarakynel, or the "Exalted Keeper of Secrets", or whatever you'd like to call it - the neato Forge World KOS. I've been using her as Zarakynel in the last few games and she's done ... adequately, I suppose. 666 points is a LOT for her, but I want to try to make it work.
Any suggestions on how to do that? I've paid the 2CP to deep strike her every game, but she doesn't re-roll charges so it's actually kind of unreliable - I feel like she could get further by advancing and charging from my DZ. Only downside is she can get shot if I don't get first turn. Should I keep deep striking her?
I've also been using 2 CP in the shooting phase for Warp Surge on her, giving her a 3++. It's usually fairly good, but it isn't enough; she still dies by turn 2. I chalk this up to having little else as threatening as her in the list that requires anti-tank firepower. Instead of choosing between difficult targets, the enemy has a single BIG THING WOT MUST DIE and shoots everything anti-tank at her. Do you think she should be my warlord and have an even bigger target? The Daemon Prince, hilariously, is far more durable, because of the Character rules.
Is 9CP enough for Daemons? I've been running 1 BN of Slaaneshi Daemons, with the Masque, the Daemon Prince, a Herald, and 3x20 Daemonettes with all the works. 1 LoW detachment for Zarakynel, and then 1BN of Renegades and Heretics with 2 25pt commanders, 3x10 40pt cultists for close combat, and 2 Leman Russ tanks. The Chaos Russes were originally supposed to be spooky-scary and draw fire away from Zarakynel, but they hardly compare to her threat so it doesn't really work. I have also used them for long-ranged Anti-Tank support (one is an Annihilator), since I feel like the army (at least on paper?) has trouble knocking out things like Land Raiders, Knights, or even large numbers of Rhinos. Is this a good plan? Should I go for more CP with some sort of hamfisted brigade mix of Daemons and Renegades? I don't think I can fit in a Daemons brigade that I actually want with Zarakynel at 2k...
...anyways, enough rambling. Is mono-Slaanesh good? What allies fill in the gaps? I know Zarakynel's not worth 666 points, but is there a way to make her an "okay" choice or is she just shelf-worthy? What amount of CP is good to make the engine of a Daemons army tick over on all cylinders?
Some deepstriking Slaaneshi Obliterators could definitely draw heat away from your other stuff while keeping the monogod theme. 3 Obliterators, cultist troops, and a daemon prince for the armywide rerolls and access to CSM powers.
Badablack wrote: Some deepstriking Slaaneshi Obliterators could definitely draw heat away from your other stuff while keeping the monogod theme. 3 Obliterators, cultist troops, and a daemon prince for the armywide rerolls and access to CSM powers.
I might take a different HQ, but that makes sense to me - would it take the roll of the Leman Russes in performing anti-tank, do you think? That could work.
What are everyones opinions on Khorne vs Tzeentch demons as a detachment?
Currently I run a DG Battalion with a Nurgle Demons detachment and a secondary CSM detachment (zerkers, cultists) usually... but I'm very interested in swapping in another demon detachment instead. I think Tzeetch would be a great backline to the massive horde of plaguebearers I run!
Is 40 cultists and 20 pink horros overkill for troop blobs? Should i perhaps decrease the number of cultists and replace them with something else? Cheers.
Btw aiming for 2k points ill probably shift some numbers to give me 100ish points in reserve for horror splits.
Is 40 cultists and 20 pink horros overkill for troop blobs?
No it is not. I'm a bit spoiled here 'cause my main army is IG and your metagame may be different, but when I played against 40-man cultists blobs I had zero problem killing them. Of course they murdered at least 2 of my infantry squads turn 1, but guardsmen are supposed to die. And then tanks and mortars (+ morale test) removed all that cultists in one turn of shooting.
Yeah big cultist blobs aren't too much to deal with as long as you have enough small arms fire to deal with a whole 40man blob in a turn.
I think pink horrors are alittle tougher even more so with split as they can get up to something like 150 models just to finish off one spliting pink horror mass. That said after the first 51 you kill they get alot more manageable as they get a massive drop in shooting damage out put. Even more so they can only auto pass moral so many time before they run out of cp.
All that said if you have enough cp to pump pink horrors woth +invulns and auto pass morale, and mayne take an icon... woo That unit is a terror to deal with. Either way going all out is 700pts worth of stuff, and if you look at it that way the damage output isn't all that amazing. Probably why its best to only split yhe first 10 pink horrors.
mmimzie wrote: Yeah big cultist blobs aren't too much to deal with as long as you have enough small arms fire to deal with a whole 40man blob in a turn.
I think pink horrors are alittle tougher even more so with split as they can get up to something like 150 models just to finish off one spliting pink horror mass. That said after the first 51 you kill they get alot more manageable as they get a massive drop in shooting damage out put. Even more so they can only auto pass moral so many time before they run out of cp.
All that said if you have enough cp to pump pink horrors woth +invulns and auto pass morale, and mayne take an icon... woo That unit is a terror to deal with. Either way going all out is 700pts worth of stuff, and if you look at it that way the damage output isn't all that amazing. Probably why its best to only split yhe first 10 pink horrors.
Thanks for the replies.
The armies I face are pretty mixed but mostly space marines (templars and wolves), with a tendency for close combat units in rhinos.
Yea i was thinking limiting splitting because as you mentioned it is a big point sink.
For a total of 2 cps (FO and DotW) both units can be deployed right up in my opponents face deliverig quite a lot of firepower before they get whittled down. I guess ill have to playtest my list amd decide whether or not both are needed and if a different unit would be better use of the points. They will certainly soak up alot lf firepower and seeing so many models on the board will be nice.
Loci are given to battle forged armies where a detachment is all the same daemon keyword. So you could have an HQ detachment of NURGLE HQ, and then a battalion with mixed god keyword. The characters in the HQ detachment would all get the loci, and it would buff any NURGLE models in the battalion.
Don't forget a few things though : a Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1dmg Warlord trait becomes a lot tougher, cutting Plasma damage by 66% and Lascannon by 47%.
Well, possibly I should try him again. I have both LoCh and Kairos (though an old small models) since old times but never used them in 8-th.
OK, I've tried it in a friendly game against fluffy Khorne army (a lots of dogs and berserkers) and it did surprisingly good: was charged by two 5-man berserkers units, lost less then half of his wounds and killed everybody back (wiped one unit with Smite and another one with a combination of Infernal Gateway and melee).
But we had a question with Loci: are they granted per-detachment or per-army? For example, if I have 3 Tzeench detachments do I have to roll separately for each of them and use different results for units in different detachments or I just roll one time for all army? Rules look a bit ambiguous in this regard. (English is not my native language so it can be just a matter of misunderstanding on my side, of course)
So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?
vaklor4 wrote: So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?
The biggest thing was always the 12" movement over the 8" movement, though with Deep Strike Strats that's not such a problem.
I've only run Skarbrand once this edition, in a semi-friendly game where he charged Guilliman, did no damage and then had Guilliman kick his arse. It wasn't Skarbrand's finest moment.
vaklor4 wrote: So I have a question that is more for opinions than anything else. What is your opinion on Bloodthirsters? Is it better to just run Skarbrand now that he is a mere 20 points higher than a standard BT, or do BTs still have a place with their different weapon loadouts?
The biggest thing was always the 12" movement over the 8" movement, though with Deep Strike Strats that's not such a problem.
I've only run Skarbrand once this edition, in a semi-friendly game where he charged Guilliman, did no damage and then had Guilliman kick his arse. It wasn't Skarbrand's finest moment.
I primarily have used Skarbrand as a buffer and a fire magnet, instead of an actual huge threat. People tend to focus the Bloodthirster special instead of focusing on the 10 Berzerkers getting auto-morale and 2+ attacks (due to two fight phases).
AstraVlad wrote: was charged by two 5-man berserkers units, lost less then half of his wounds and killed everybody back (wiped one unit...with a combination of Infernal Gateway and melee).
Remember that if you're casting Gateway while you yourself are engaged, then it will hit the closest model to you, which will be within 3", which will give YOURSELF some mortal wounds.
Remember that if you're casting Gateway while you yourself are engaged, then it will hit the closest model to you, which will be within 3", which will give YOURSELF some mortal wounds.
Probably not the best idea....
You are right, but sometimes it is worth the risk. Especially if you are surrounded by is a bunch of crazy bloodthirsty Khorn worshippers ready to tear out your guts .
Smite beta rules went through and a small feculent grimgnaw nerf. Could have been worse though, Eldar got nerfed hard
Edit: No more Alphastrike is the new beta rule.
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.
No more Alphastrike, Smite beta rules went through and a small feculent grimgnaw nerf. Could have been worse though, Eldar got nerfed hard
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.
No more Alphastrike, Smite beta rules went through and a small feculent grimgnaw nerf. Could have been worse though, Eldar got nerfed hard
TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined Power Ratings of all the units you set up on the battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your army’s total Power Level, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere). This does not apply to a Genestealer Cults unit that is being set up according to the Cult Ambush ability, or to units that are set up after the first battle round has begun, but before the first turn begins (such as those set up via the Forward Operatives or Strike From the Shadows Stratagems).
Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.
Can we just be clear this is a beta rule? Your post is extremely misleading...
mrhappyface wrote: So much for being able to clear out bubblewrap units before the big units get here. Seriously, why does GW hate CC armies?
To be fair, this is a good role for the much maligned Daemonette. They can easily get 20"+ inches across the board Turn 1 and can chew up screens/bubble wrap fairly trivially, while the other Gods with their actually better daemons follow up to mop up.
mrhappyface wrote: So much for being able to clear out bubblewrap units before the big units get here. Seriously, why does GW hate CC armies?
To be fair, this is a good role for the much maligned Daemonette. They can easily get 20"+ inches across the board Turn 1 and can chew up screens/bubble wrap fairly trivially, while the other Gods with their actually better daemons follow up to mop up.
Aye but not all of us play Slaanesh.
As a Khorne player, this is is gonna hurt: nothing to cut down bubblewrap units turn 1 and no way of distracting your opponent from shooting at ground units while they move up the board. I seriously don't know why they made it so you can't deepstrike in the enemies deployment turn 1, they've completely neutered CC armies that relied on a turn 1 charge to even have a chance of winning.
mrhappyface wrote: So much for being able to clear out bubblewrap units before the big units get here. Seriously, why does GW hate CC armies?
To be fair, this is a good role for the much maligned Daemonette. They can easily get 20"+ inches across the board Turn 1 and can chew up screens/bubble wrap fairly trivially, while the other Gods with their actually better daemons follow up to mop up.
Aye but not all of us play Slaanesh.
As a Khorne player, this is is gonna hurt: nothing to cut down bubblewrap units turn 1 and no way of distracting your opponent from shooting at ground units while they move up the board. I seriously don't know why they made it so you can't deepstrike in the enemies deployment turn 1, they've completely neutered CC armies that relied on a turn 1 charge to even have a chance of winning.
I mean, as a mono-Slaanesh player, I've been hurt the whole time, lol. Mono-God just isn't as good anymore as it used to be. This is the first time since 8th dropped that I've felt like Slaanesh have been able to do something the other Gods couldn't, and that something is get turn 1 charges. Otherwise, they never had a role.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, as a mono-Slaanesh player, I've been hurt the whole time, lol. Mono-God just isn't as good anymore as it used to be. This is the first time since 8th dropped that I've felt like Slaanesh have been able to do something the other Gods couldn't, and that something is get turn 1 charges. Otherwise, they never had a role.
That doesn't make Slaanesh good though, just makes Khorne just as bad.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, as a mono-Slaanesh player, I've been hurt the whole time, lol. Mono-God just isn't as good anymore as it used to be. This is the first time since 8th dropped that I've felt like Slaanesh have been able to do something the other Gods couldn't, and that something is get turn 1 charges. Otherwise, they never had a role.
That doesn't make Slaanesh good though, just makes Khorne just as bad.
That's what happens when the only word people know for balance is "nerf!".
I said it and I'll say it again: people should have been asking for other armies to get buffed up, rather than the good armies to get knocked down.
actualy might be abit of a buff to the blood letter bomb, but it requires some 3d chess
For 1 you never drop the blood letter bomb turn 1 anyway.
Then with no other armies other than GSC having deep strike melee stuff. Armies in the meta might tend to go toward bring less chaff and scouts. For instance i know i'm going to cut down on my nurglings as they are now not really all that useful when comepared to brim stones??? out side of ITC missions like recon or something, and even then i only need 1 or 2 squads of those.
So now you can just drop your bomb turn two into less chaffe. Only thing that's lame is that i had hoped summoning wouldn't have been affected, but i think it is??
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, as a mono-Slaanesh player, I've been hurt the whole time, lol. Mono-God just isn't as good anymore as it used to be. This is the first time since 8th dropped that I've felt like Slaanesh have been able to do something the other Gods couldn't, and that something is get turn 1 charges. Otherwise, they never had a role.
That doesn't make Slaanesh good though, just makes Khorne just as bad.
That's what happens when the only word people know for balance is "nerf!".
I said it and I'll say it again: people should have been asking for other armies to get buffed up, rather than the good armies to get knocked down.
Other armies were actualy buffed quite decently from some of these changes, but only is weird ways. For instance grey nights and thousand sons got abit of a smite buff. Plus daemons got a big CP buff 1 in not deep striking so much, but more so in reguard to having just a whole lot more CP tanks to have very easy access to good battalions.
That's true, those are good points. Less chaff is likely, as armies try to double down on the "OP big guns" meaning there's less to clear, and a turn 2 charge from an unhurt unit would therefore be more devastating than a turn 1 charge would be in the current meta.
Chaff is going to go up as people try to fill more battalions for the +5CP (again, another thing I don't understand: who was GW talking to that said Battalions aren't good enough?)
mrhappyface wrote: Chaff is going to go up as people try to fill more battalions for the +5CP (again, another thing I don't understand: who was GW talking to that said Battalions aren't good enough?)
It's supposed to be a buff for mono-faction armies. But it's not going to work that way...
I can fill 3 batallions of CSMs, not sure what I am going to do with 20 CPs now that ToT is one use only.
I guess I will use Endless Cacophony once per turn. This is a huge buff for Chaos.
mrhappyface wrote: Chaff is going to go up as people try to fill more battalions for the +5CP (again, another thing I don't understand: who was GW talking to that said Battalions aren't good enough?)
i don't think this was about 'Battalions being not good enough' but giving the player the incentive to use not just 1 Battalion & 2 Supreme commands or the likes. Also, while not really being viable for Daemons, Brigade are now worthwile.
It seems blue horrors became totally useless now with new rules for Smite. It will be no reason to try to cast it with horrors anyway, so we will take Brimstones to fill battalion slots and Pinks for some shooting and there will be no place for Blues...
Elric Greywolf wrote: Blues are for reinforcement splitting in order to keep your Pinks above 20.
While that's a sketchy move at best, it IS their best move.
I'm sorry, but Magical Horde rule tells about "20 or more Pink Horrors", not "Pink Horrors unit with 20 or more Horrors". So Blues are totally irrelevant to that rule.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Blues are for reinforcement splitting in order to keep your Pinks above 20.
While that's a sketchy move at best, it IS their best move.
I'm sorry, but Magical Horde rule tells about "20 or more Pink Horrors", not "Pink Horrors unit with 20 or more Horrors". So Blues are totally irrelevant to that rule.
No what he's refering to is keeping reinforcement poitns for the first 10 pink horrors that die in your pink horror unit. So your opponent has to kill 50 models before you go under 20. So no apology required lol.
No what he's refering to is keeping reinforcement poitns for the first 10 pink horrors that die in your pink horror unit. So your opponent has to kill 50 models before you go under 20. So no apology required lol.
And what is the reason to keep a mixed unit of horrors above 20 models?
I'm sorry, but Magical Horde rule tells about "20 or more Pink Horrors", not "Pink Horrors unit with 20 or more Horrors". So Blues are totally irrelevant to that rule.
yeah, so you take 20 Pinks and 5 Blues, and than kill of the Blues and replace them with Yellows and end up with 20 Pinks and 10 Yellows
just to save points as 25 Pinks + replacement points for Blues and Yellow is expensive
No what he's refering to is keeping reinforcement poitns for the first 10 pink horrors that die in your pink horror unit. So your opponent has to kill 50 models before you go under 20. So no apology required lol.
And what is the reason to keep a mixed unit of horrors above 20 models?
Its not mixed it's a unit of >20 pink specificly. SO you have 30 horrors if your opponent was to kill 11 to bring you under 20, than they ahve to kill 51 models. Your adding stuff to what elric said.
I'm sorry, but Magical Horde rule tells about "20 or more Pink Horrors", not "Pink Horrors unit with 20 or more Horrors". So Blues are totally irrelevant to that rule.
yeah, so you take 20 Pinks and 5 Blues, and than kill of the Blues and replace them with Yellows and end up with 20 Pinks and 10 Yellows
This can make sense, thank you. I should definitely try it as a counter-intercept measure.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yay, buff for mono-Slaanesh relative to the other gods, so we can use our speed to get across the board!
*ducks*
Slaanesh and nurgle are the only viable ones with the FAQ. Plague drones getting a buff with the PLAGUEBEAERER keyword makes turn 1 charges with a gnarlmaw a real possibility. Move+advance+charge would be: 12+(d6+1)+(2d6+1) For a max threat range of 32 inches if the stars align. Even if you fail the charge, blobs of plague drones are pretty dang tough.
My meta doesn't use beta rules, so I've got no worries. I'll wait until they are official. If something has to happen, I think nerfing ability to hit on the turn deep strikers arrive is the way to do it. You can still hold up your opponent in CC, or do some damage, but with a worse BS/WS, you wont be wiping them turn 1.
mrhappyface wrote: So much for being able to clear out bubblewrap units before the big units get here. Seriously, why does GW hate CC armies?
To be fair, this is a good role for the much maligned Daemonette. They can easily get 20"+ inches across the board Turn 1 and can chew up screens/bubble wrap fairly trivially, while the other Gods with their actually better daemons follow up to mop up.
Nerfing DS assault does nothing to make Slaanesh units not hot gutter trash. All it does is bring non-slaanesh units down to their level.
Its like brining your C-list athlete off the bench after your A-lister breaks his leg. The dude is still a C-list player.
Yeah between the floors changes and the unnecessary crippling of deep strike, I think there is zero reason to play faction Chaos Daemons anymore. It was already not popular in a competitive setting except occasionally as minor allies to other Chaos armies. I am the #4 Daemons ITC player in the world right now despite only have 3 RTTs in my name and not winning any of them. After this, the number of people bothering to full-on play the faction in a competitive setting will wither from very few to almost none. I'm tempted to give up and just play my Tau and blow everything off the table with ignore LOS shooting.
mrhappyface wrote: So much for being able to clear out bubblewrap units before the big units get here. Seriously, why does GW hate CC armies?
To be fair, this is a good role for the much maligned Daemonette. They can easily get 20"+ inches across the board Turn 1 and can chew up screens/bubble wrap fairly trivially, while the other Gods with their actually better daemons follow up to mop up.
Nerfing DS assault does nothing to make Slaanesh units not hot gutter trash. All it does is bring non-slaanesh units down to their level.
Its like brining your C-list athlete off the bench after your A-lister breaks his leg. The dude is still a C-list player.
I'm not sure why Slaanesh units are considered hot garbage. My mono-Slaanesh army has been doing quite well. This change to the rules gives their niche a lot of extra value, as when I discussed daemons with other people the deep striking bloodletters/plaguebearers stood out over daemonettes because they could just drop in for a charge. Daemonettes can definitely get some work in IMO. So now while letters/plaguebearers can, on paper, do more damage, the daemonettes are better/faster delivery.
Just what's rumbling around in my head. My hellflayers and such have been doing really well too.
Can someone help me understand how the Unstoppable Ferocity affects Skarbrand weapons? Does it add +1 after the multiplier now instead of before?
Page 85
– Unstoppable Ferocity
Change the rules text to read:
‘If this unit makes a charge move, is charged, or
performs a Heroic Intervention, then until the end of
the turn add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all its
models and add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all
the melee weapons the unit is armed with.
And I started working on them before the 
