blackmage wrote: sadly there is no comparison between letters and crushers, they fill exactly same role,but letters are more point wise and infantry with objsec, not a thing to underestimate, right now the meta is heavily shifted towards big guns for the big guys (at least here in italy) and mono infantry lists have an edge over mechanized or multiwounds models. Btw crushers models are really cool i own 6 painted.
Pretty much this. But even in a casual perspective, it's almost dumb to ever go Crushers. You almost only bring Crushers as an intentional handicap, it's that bad.
Are there any worthwhile choices in the Daemons codex, other than the boring bloodletter bomb?
And Daemon princes of course, but taking more than 2 or 3 of those is not very sportsmanlike.
I'm already taking 30 cultists and 3x3 nurglings, and that's all the chaff models I want. Rather fill my list up with interesting elites than dozens of interchangeable gribblies.
Before the FAQ I would have said Tzeentch DP with impossible robe. Infact a 3++ still isn't bad.
I basically use nurglings + hqs and then the rest of my lists are CSM. I've alwaysbegun a sucker for big monsters like skarbrand though.
DPs are god tier. All deamon troops apart from daemonettes are amazing for respective roles, be it screening, screen clearing, scouting, melee damage. Heralds are all also pretty good (except Khorne) to unluck the best spells for daemons. Finally if you go Nurgle you bring the tri-herald combo and sometimes epidemius.
Warosaur wrote: I wish they would have worded that FAQ stratagem better. It says the units receive the benefits of cover not that they are in cover.
so you could argue that iron warriors/imperiall fist and units that ignore cover doesnt get a benefit against that stratagem.
that's all in twisted mind of players who want argue on anything, is not GW fault at all, is clear how stratagem works, only a win to all costs player can argue about it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: DPs are god tier. All deamon troops apart from daemonettes are amazing for respective roles, be it screening, screen clearing, scouting, melee damage. Heralds are all also pretty good (except Khorne) to unluck the best spells for daemons. Finally if you go Nurgle you bring the tri-herald combo and sometimes epidemius.
always undecided between 30 letters or 30 pinks in my "almost" mononurgle list, lately im going for letters at least anything they charge they kill, btw K herald with crown is decent.
points/cp's shortage im testing for a 1750pts tournament right now ,where i cant reply detachments so i would need 6 cp out of 9 (battalion+supreme command), just to deep strike both of them and changecaster not sure if worth, but the idea to flood to table with 150 models (90 pb's 30 letters and 30 pinks) is interesting
this is what im testing im switching Ts supreme with Nurgle demons supreme
So I'm currently running Khorne Daemons with allied World Eaters (my only shooting attack is the grenades on my 'Zerkers, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!) but I'm looking at expanding into some other melee Daemon stuff. How are Fiends? The ability to run across the board and lock stuff down while my Khorne stuff gets into position seems pretty OK, and forcing an enemy unit to be -1 to hit with some psychic shenanigans seems pretty cool too. Would a detachment of 3 units of Fiends with a Slaanesh Herald be really bad, or is it an okay-ish idea? If so, how many Fiends per unit?
Do note that I'm aware that mono-Khorne without any shooting support is a bad idea, I just want to see how far I can stretch the concept before I bang my head into a wall in frustration and start adding Obliterators.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So I'm currently running Khorne Daemons with allied World Eaters (my only shooting attack is the grenades on my 'Zerkers, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!) but I'm looking at expanding into some other melee Daemon stuff. How are Fiends? The ability to run across the board and lock stuff down while my Khorne stuff gets into position seems pretty OK, and forcing an enemy unit to be -1 to hit with some psychic shenanigans seems pretty cool too. Would a detachment of 3 units of Fiends with a Slaanesh Herald be really bad, or is it an okay-ish idea? If so, how many Fiends per unit?
Do note that I'm aware that mono-Khorne without any shooting support is a bad idea, I just want to see how far I can stretch the concept before I bang my head into a wall in frustration and start adding Obliterators.
If your opponent isn’t used to Fiends, expect hilarity if the rest of your army can execute a few T1 charges. I’ve been using the very Detachment you describe with a Daemon engines rushdown list and it is a hilarious (and fairly casual-viable) gimmick.
See, i run 2 detachments of deamons when i run them. 1 Undivided for the bloodletter bomb, deamon princes of khorne, and pink horror bombs, nurglings. My second is always pure slaanesh with as many demonettes as i can in groups of 10 and heralds / masque. I find them incredibly useful at speed 7 + advance + charge.
Also keep this in mind. If you make a detachment that is pure you get the loci. The units effected by the loci dont have to come from that detachment. So you could supreme command slaanesh hq's, supreme command khorne hq's, then do a large force of undivided with all the demonettes / bloodletters / pinks / nurglings in with some tzeentch hq's because the tzeentch loci is stupid for what they are. If it worked outside of cc it would be awsome.
Not advocating that plan, just pointing it out as a way to creativly make a force.
Was considering that, but since I run a Bloodthirster and a Prince already I'm spending quite heavily on HQs as it is. Fiends seem good because you can run them as singletons to fill out a Vanguard detachment with just one Herald and three Fiends, and then add Fiends to taste..
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So I'm currently running Khorne Daemons with allied World Eaters (my only shooting attack is the grenades on my 'Zerkers, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!) but I'm looking at expanding into some other melee Daemon stuff. How are Fiends? The ability to run across the board and lock stuff down while my Khorne stuff gets into position seems pretty OK, and forcing an enemy unit to be -1 to hit with some psychic shenanigans seems pretty cool too. Would a detachment of 3 units of Fiends with a Slaanesh Herald be really bad, or is it an okay-ish idea? If so, how many Fiends per unit?
Do note that I'm aware that mono-Khorne without any shooting support is a bad idea, I just want to see how far I can stretch the concept before I bang my head into a wall in frustration and start adding Obliterators.
That seems great! Personally I do WE supported by Khorne daemons. I mixed in some long range support to varying degrees of success. My favorite thing is to take a big distraction (Klos, gbs) alongside my bezekers and bloodletters. Just massive melee threat saturation.
Fiends is not something I thought to try. They lock people in combat, yes? Seems strong.
While we're on the subject, are any of the Slaanesh relics worthwhile? I'm currently running the Armour of Scorn on my 'Thirster (because of course I am) and the Talisman of Burning Blood on my CSM Khorne Prince. The Slothful Claws seem alright, S6 attacks on a Herald is nothing to scoff at, and D2 is always welcome.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: While we're on the subject, are any of the Slaanesh relics worthwhile? I'm currently running the Armour of Scorn on my 'Thirster (because of course I am) and the Talisman of Burning Blood on my CSM Khorne Prince. The Slothful Claws seem alright, S6 attacks on a Herald is nothing to scoff at, and D2 is always welcome.
Soulstealer is pretty hilarious against certain armies. Being able to heal a crazy amount of wounds per turn just by slaughtering screens and chaff is a good way to get even better mileage out of your HQ!
rvd1ofakind wrote: Just FYI, Slaanesh fiends are terrible. Their "enemies can't retreat" ability is next to meaningless since you can just surround instead...
Or alternatively, NOT spend all your points on surrounding a unit, and simply drop one fiend on multiple units instead, imagine that. Get creative.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Just FYI, Slaanesh fiends are terrible. Their "enemies can't retreat" ability is next to meaningless since you can just surround instead...
Or alternatively, NOT spend all your points on surrounding a unit, and simply drop one fiend on multiple units instead, imagine that. Get creative.
Or allows you to actually attack the target unit rather than just pile in taking hits. And works even when enemy prevents you from surrounding.
Uh... what? I'm not sure how you're playing, but I can deepstrike 3D6 charge my 30 letters, send 3 to a scout squad(that I didn't charge) and 27 to do kill the unit I want to kill (some of those 3 can sometimes make it into combat too).
Or I could bring fiends who have to charge 9'' from deepstrike or are just shot off the table. The burden on proof is on you, not me: Bloodletters see plenty of competitive play, Fiends see ZERO. Why pay for a unit with bad damage, bad durability AND bad mobility to do something you can do for free pretty much? Yes, it's still bad mobility as fiends can't go through ruins (which are usually the only things providing line of sight)
Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.
As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?
I’m a massive fan of Fiends and use them in most my games and absolutely agree they’re a weak gimmick unit. They’re situationally viable if your opponent doesn’t know how to handle them; I’ve wrecked ITC lists with garage lists through the element of surprise, as competitive players often don’t encounter them. Expect that to change with their upcoming plastic release, which if it doesn’t entail a durability hike or points drop will only reduce their ‘secret weapon’ status with a month or so of attention.
On the ‘situationally viable’ note: if you can draw enemy units into charging Nurglings, they can be a game winner that enables you to protect faster beatsticks in melee. Major emphasis on ‘if’ and ‘can’.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Perhaps their strongest ability is being a cheap tax unit when you want to take a mounted Herald to allow Maulerfiends and Defilers to advance and charge. Even then, a Daemonette battalion can be a lot more effective.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.
For a while I had a mounted Slerald in my list. My idea for her was to zoom upfield and take out Scouts, while my DPs focus on the real threats. Seems like good idea.
It. Does. Not. Work.
Her speed means that she quickly loses character shielding from your other units, and once that happens she is DEAD. She doesn't have enough attacks to reliably kill a marine scout squad, not to mention something like Nurglings or an Infantry Squad.
I wasn't going to use them to charge up at first though, just as support psykers while I wait for my Letterbombs to show up. Once those are on the boards the Heralds should be free to zoom around and provide support to the real workhorses by making stuff have -1 to hit or similar.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.
As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?
that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.
As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?
that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment
Obliterators do have the Daemon faction keyword, that's why I asked in the first place.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.
As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?
that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment
Obliterators do have the Daemon faction keyword, that's why I asked in the first place.
It got taken away from them when the Daemons codex came out. Look at the CSM Codex errata
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Honestly, having thought it through a bit I think I'm leaning towards agreeing that Fiends seem pretty bad. They're squishier than Bloodcrushers, and that says something. It might just be more worthwhile for me to grab a Supreme Command detachment of Slaanesh Heralds on steeds. That way I'll get psychic defense, three fast characters who can zoom around the board to help where it's needed, and some psychic shenanigans of my own.
As a side-note, can I run a unit of Obliterators in an otherwise mono-Daemons detachment and still have it be battle-forged for Loci if I run the 'Blits as Khorne (assuming everything else is also Khorne)? They've all got the <Daemon> and <Khorne> Keywords and thus should be fine, right?
that detachment lost the loci, obliterators doesn't have the demon faction keyword so detachment isn't anymore a demon detachment
Obliterators do have the Daemon faction keyword, that's why I asked in the first place.
I sold half my fiends, and just kept the 3 weirdest ones from the first edition. I haven't faced anything worth not falling back with them yet. It would be worth it if they could used against flyers IIRC that's the only type of unit that can fall back away from them.
Skarbrand can maybe prevent falling back, but can't remember about his deal vs flyers.
In AoS I find all the FW exalted greater daemons are overpriced for what they can do compared to the regular greater daemons. I have moderate hopes for a named Keeper of Secrets but don't expect one.....though Nurgle got Rotigus.
weaver9 wrote: So my Skarbrand arrives in a few days. Any advice on running him?
Obvious synergy with bloodletter hordes + crimson crown on a skullmaster... but I'm not sold on bloodletters over bezerkers.
My plan right now is to deep strike him in, and saturate the board with bezerkers in rhinos, and possibly a super heavy like a Scorpion or KLoS. Generally a waste of points but fun to use.
I got mine for Christmas '17 and he's still headless. I'll be bringing him (unfortunately in an auxiliary) to a 2500 pt "handicap" tournament in November alongside 15 AL infiltrating khorne possessed and a talisman DP. Basically he's to hoof it up the board behind a warptimed prince or the possessed to share his buffs with the DP and get the DP's rerolls of 1's.
Hopefully I can tie up enough shooters on turn 1 that he doesn't get shot off the board. I wanted to bring him in with 5x3 flesh hounds for DTW, but the tourney doesn't allow multiple detachments unless they're of the same codex (supposed to be a friendly tournament for casual players, like me). Hopefully they shoot at my land raider or heldrake instead. Lots of variables but dangit i've wanted to bring him forever and I'm finally allowed to bring his Power Level.
The 2 CP Cover save strat will be nice if I don't get first turn but I've already wasted the 1CP on the infiltration (or 2 if I'm feeling aggressive).
How he'll do against a Russ / Las Pred gunline which is the meta on a board in a shoppe with very little LoS blocking terrain? Who knows, but there will be blood.
Basically it limits the detachments you can take and you are penalized score for taking a named character or PL higher than the escalating limit, and no forge world models/datasheets. They've been pretty fun.
Handicap is probably too strong of and the wrong word. Casual is more appropriate.
Basically it limits the detachments you can take and you are penalized score for taking a named character or PL higher than the escalating limit, and no forge world models/datasheets. They've been pretty fun.
Handicap is probably too strong of and the wrong word. Casual is more appropriate.
That seems silly.
Not all named chars are created equal (and some are truly poor compared to generic HQ equivalents), and PL penalty screws over armies who's units are low point-per-PL ratios.
And forgeworld bans are just stupid given how most FW stuff are outright weaker than codex equivalents.
Its not casual, its piling on random arbitrary limitations without a reason.
UncleJetMints wrote: So with my Tzeentch demons, am I better off taking tsons cultist as allies or actually taking the rubrics and scarab terminators?
No, any legion is better than TS if all you are taking is allied cultists.
But the idea that rubrics and scarabs are non-competitive is rather accurate.
Time to play AoS boys, where the Exalted Keeper is actually not trash.
It was almost fun while it lasted.
...Were the Forgeworld models even REMOTELY playable before now anyways? Heck, was the Keeper of Secrets even viable in the first place?
Zarakynel was with her original point cost in the Index. Not OMG Cheese good, but good enough to be playable.
The Keeper of Secrets has been bad since the index (and arguably before then in 6th and 7th).
Basically it limits the detachments you can take and you are penalized score for taking a named character or PL higher than the escalating limit, and no forge world models/datasheets. They've been pretty fun.
Handicap is probably too strong of and the wrong word. Casual is more appropriate.
horrible, i would never go to a tournament like that
Basically it limits the detachments you can take and you are penalized score for taking a named character or PL higher than the escalating limit, and no forge world models/datasheets. They've been pretty fun.
Handicap is probably too strong of and the wrong word. Casual is more appropriate.
horrible, i would never go to a tournament like that
I would expect not.
I take what I can get in this hodunk city, even if it means charging into 8 battle cannons or lasguns each game. The format doesn't permit super-heavies so I don't have to worry about knights, which I'm not equipped to deal with in ITC yet, or primarchs (I'm fairly new).
But feel free to impart upon me your expert advice on dealing with Russes and Predators as a Darmon + CSM player.
Slannesh lascannon havoc or oblits are a pretty good answer if you got CSM mixed in. Your own predators work to.
Exalted flamers can be pretty good too.
Basically it limits the detachments you can take and you are penalized score for taking a named character or PL higher than the escalating limit, and no forge world models/datasheets. They've been pretty fun.
Handicap is probably too strong of and the wrong word. Casual is more appropriate.
horrible, i would never go to a tournament like that
I would expect not.
I take what I can get in this hodunk city, even if it means charging into 8 battle cannons or lasguns each game. The format doesn't permit super-heavies so I don't have to worry about knights, which I'm not equipped to deal with in ITC yet, or primarchs (I'm fairly new).
But feel free to impart upon me your expert advice on dealing with Russes and Predators as a Darmon + CSM player.
most depend by your list, i mean if you play a demon horde (ie 90 plaguebearers) you just dont care of his leman/preddators they do almost nothing to you, btw the chaos part gives you obliterators, they are fine if you want with armored units, 6-9 with a lord for re roll 1's marked slaanesh.
Spearhead - Chaos Demons - Khorne
*Samus
*Uraka the Warfiend
*Skull Cannon
*Skull Cannon
*Skull Cannon
My goal was to create a list that can handle hordes but bring enough heavy hitters for tanks and knights. I went with Skull cannon on the Khorne spearhead as they have a decent armor save and can fight in CC. I use named characters for the Khorne spearhead in order to use the Nurgle DP's. Tell me what you think?
Spearhead - Chaos Demons - Khorne
*Samus
*Uraka the Warfiend
*Skull Cannon
*Skull Cannon
*Skull Cannon
My goal was to create a list that can handle hordes but bring enough heavy hitters for tanks and knights. I went with Skull cannon on the Khorne spearhead as they have a decent armor save and can fight in CC. I use named characters for the Khorne spearhead in order to use the Nurgle DP's. Tell me what you think?
You could instead have your Nurgle detachment:
Death Guard Daemon Prince
Death Guard Daemon Prince
3x Nurglings
3x Nurglings
3x Nurglings
This then means that your khorne detachment can have my favorite Khorne Daemon Prince with Skullreaver Axe. And add an extra prince to your prince list.
I'd been considering a similar multi-prince list myself, though I hadn't pushed it quite so far as having 4/5 princes as yet (but it's a temptation).
remember now FAQ wont let you anymore charge through screens or make heroic interventions as well also if you fly so be careful play so many demon princes in Ts detachment suggest dont play pink horrors or you lost any Ts advantage (+6 powers range no cumulative smite penalty), play tzaangors and keep 30 horrors for summoning when needed
a thing like this might be fine
blackmage wrote: remember now FAQ wont let you anymore charge through screens or make heroic interventions as well also if you fly so be careful play so many demon princes in Ts detachment suggest dont play pink horrors or you lost any Ts advantage (+6 powers range no cumulative smite penalty), play tzaangors and keep 30 horrors for summoning when needed
a thing like this might be fine
I have thought about bringing tzaangors but felt like the staying power of horrors sounded too good to pass up. The lost those traits to me are fine. This list isn't made to be aggessive but more focus on claiming objectives and hold then. As for the Deathguard battalion. I prefer the demons because the nurgle DPs have that damage boost with virulent touch. Plus they have ways to recover wounds using stratagems.
It was carnage. I immediately lost the Skullreaver DP and one Thousand Sons DP on T1 due to some bad screening on my part (I always underestimate Kraken genestealers and their insane maneuverability!). Skullreaver DP also took a full power 6 damage smite to the face so that didn't help. By T2 it was looking pretty bad as all my obj-holding Nurglings and half my brims were shot off the table while I wasn't doing much offensively outside of spitting out some infernal gateways and other mortal wounds across some dakkafexes and devilgants. He was ahead in ITC points by quite a bit and I wasn't able to kill a single unit. Then end of T2 and throughout T3:
- 2 bloodletter bombs make their charges
- Right before death, Ahriman death hexes a flyrant allowing the bloodletters to finish him
- the DP smites the other flyrant for 6 damage, death hexes him, then finishes him in CC - a full health carnifex charges the LoC doing 1 damage and then gets one-shot on the back swing
- the LoC then charges another carnifex and one-shots it
- third carnifex eventually dies from repeated smites, infernal gates, infernal gaze, bolts of change, etc.
- I roll 1s on both daemonic icons and revive an incredible 11 bloodletters
- LoC/remaining bloodletters tie up the rest of his dakkafexes/devilgants in combat
- By end of T3 there are 4 dead carnifexes, 2 dead flyrants, 20x dead genstealers and a bunch of dead gants
- Opponent concedes start of T4 as I'm nearly caught up on points and he has nothing left to score with while I have a full health DP, a near full health LoC, ~20 bloodletters and a few pinks and brims left on the table
Things I learned:
- Need beefier screens than brimstones
- Need tighter screens for DPs against Kraken genestealers
- Nurglings are incredible
- LoC with 3++ and infernal gate is still extremely annoying and hard to deal with
- LoC + Ahriman + 3 more psykers is a crazy combo and allowed me to completely own the psychic phase; opponent only managed to cast a single spell all game
- Icons are amazing when they work, not reliable but when it happens its extremely swingy, and you will have them when you take bloodletters anyway
- Double death hex + double bloodletters is awesome
I'm considering swapping out the 4 x 10 brims for more nurglings but overall I am surprisingly impressed with how this list performed and with what initially seemed like a pretty bad matchup for daemons. I think the Thousand Sons supreme command + Lord of Change really took my psychic phase over the top and made the list work.
@barboggo - that’s an incredible comeback and an outstanding bloodbath. TSons SC is really looking strong right now. (Would anyone consider using the Elite slot? Maybe adding a Tzaangor shaman?)
What are peoples thoughts on the daemonic heavy support options?
Skull Cannon vs Burning Chariot being the main two I'm considering.
Skull Cannon has the range advantage, but the Chariot seems to have more versatility, as well as the ability to add a chunk of melee damage with its 9 attacks.
What are peoples thoughts on the daemonic heavy support options?
That they're all **** and not worth considering?
What about the Fateskimmer? Not heavy I know, but as a HQ choice
seeing as the anti tank units now have a big target if you bring the chariot it's better just to bring a foot herald or disk herald and hide behind troops
What are peoples thoughts on the daemonic heavy support options?
That they're all **** and not worth considering?
What about the Fateskimmer? Not heavy I know, but as a HQ choice
seeing as the anti tank units now have a big target if you bring the chariot it's better just to bring a foot herald or disk herald and hide behind troops
Well I mean, with nurgling infiltrators and/or some screamers or similar on the table, the fluxmaster is still an untargetable character against anti-tank. Exactly as protected as the foot or disk herald, except that it can also handle being in combat instead of just being a smite bot.
lindsay40k wrote: @barboggo - that’s an incredible comeback and an outstanding bloodbath. TSons SC is really looking strong right now. (Would anyone consider using the Elite slot? Maybe adding a Tzaangor shaman?)
How do you mean ‘double Death Hex’?
Double death hex as in Ahriman has it and one of the Thousand Sons DPs has it. My opponent was very balled up in the center of the map since we were playing Crucible of Champions with spearhead assault deployment. That's the one with the center objective, so we knew it was going to be extremely bloody since both of us had close-range, horde-y, melee armies and we both took Recon, Butcher's Bill, and The Reaper as our ITC secondaries.
T2 I dropped two bloodletter bombs on my opponent's left and right flanks which forced him to split up his termagant screens and flyrants to deal with them. Two psykers with death hex allowed me to make it very, very dangerous for those flyrants to support his gants because as soon as he gets within death hex range the bloodletters would just chop the flyrants apart. Which is exactly what happened with one of the flyrants. Ahriman also had Warptime to give him similar mobility to the Thousand Sons DP. The death hex/bloodletter combo completed countered the flyrants and their usual ability to fly through your lines deleting your infantry without fear of retaliation. I imagine it would work great against any kind of highly mobile, high invuln beatstick that likes to jump past your lines and wreck your dudes. Bloodletters are perfect for taking advantage of death hex since they have a natural AP -3. And there's a gazillion of them with their annoying-to-deal-with 5+ invulns.
Having so much psyker saturation in my army was something I've never experienced before. With all my big offensive spells on the LoC (+2 to cast/deny, infernal gate, bolt of change) and Ahriman (+1 to cast/deny, death hex, infernal gaze, warptime) plus a supporting changecaster with Gaze of Fate in my back lines, I'd basically guarantee that death hexes and mortal wounds would be going off consistently every turn once they were in range. The LoC alone output something like 20 mortal wounds over the course of the game, though a big part of that was probably also due to the matchup and the way it influenced our deployments. That coupled with the 2 other thousand sons DPs with Brotherhood of Sorcerers gave me so much mortal wound potential and psychic phase dominance that it almost seemed guaranteed that all of my spell combos would succeed. I definitely rolled hot that game but still, having 11 casts per turn and having almost none of them fail was pretty incredible. Thousand Sons DPs spamming smites on 5s was great. Horror smites are terrible and I did make the mistake of using them once which increased the smite roll on my LoC enough for him to just barely fail a smite which would have killed a 1w flyrant a turn earlier. But having just one changecaster for backup smites and the LoC with his +2 to cast smites made my non-ksons smite spamming extremely consistent.
lindsay40k wrote: @barboggo - that’s an incredible comeback and an outstanding bloodbath. TSons SC is really looking strong right now. (Would anyone consider using the Elite slot? Maybe adding a Tzaangor shaman?)
How do you mean ‘double Death Hex’?
Double death hex as in Ahriman has it and one of the Thousand Sons DPs has it.
-snip-
I snipped the rest of your post to prevent making the thread very cluttered, but I think what Lindsay was questioning was your use of two death hexes.
From your description, it sounded like you had it set up so that when he attacked you, you could death hex both of his flyrants and murder them down. Which is obviously illegal, as you can't cast death hex twice.
I'm assuming that what you mean is that you have death hex on two casters so that you can spread them out, and so whichever part of your army gets attacked by a flyrant on any particular turn, you have someone around to hex it to help you kill it?
Unless you actually are casting two death hexes in a turn....
lindsay40k wrote: @barboggo - that’s an incredible comeback and an outstanding bloodbath. TSons SC is really looking strong right now. (Would anyone consider using the Elite slot? Maybe adding a Tzaangor shaman?)
How do you mean ‘double Death Hex’?
Double death hex as in Ahriman has it and one of the Thousand Sons DPs has it. My opponent was very balled up in the center of the map since we were playing Crucible of Champions with spearhead assault deployment. That's the one with the center objective, so we knew it was going to be extremely bloody since both of us had close-range, horde-y, melee armies and we both took Recon, Butcher's Bill, and The Reaper as our ITC secondaries.
T2 I dropped two bloodletter bombs on my opponent's left and right flanks which forced him to split up his termagant screens and flyrants to deal with them. Two psykers with death hex allowed me to make it very, very dangerous for those flyrants to support his gants because as soon as he gets within death hex range the bloodletters would just chop the flyrants apart. Which is exactly what happened with one of the flyrants. Ahriman also had Warptime to give him similar mobility to the Thousand Sons DP. The death hex/bloodletter combo completed countered the flyrants and their usual ability to fly through your lines deleting your infantry without fear of retaliation. I imagine it would work great against any kind of highly mobile, high invuln beatstick that likes to jump past your lines and wreck your dudes. Bloodletters are perfect for taking advantage of death hex since they have a natural AP -3. And there's a gazillion of them with their annoying-to-deal-with 5+ invulns.
Having so much psyker saturation in my army was something I've never experienced before. With all my big offensive spells on the LoC (+2 to cast/deny, infernal gate, bolt of change) and Ahriman (+1 to cast/deny, death hex, infernal gaze, warptime) plus a supporting changecaster with Gaze of Fate in my back lines, I'd basically guarantee that death hexes and mortal wounds would be going off consistently every turn once they were in range. The LoC alone output something like 20 mortal wounds over the course of the game, though a big part of that was probably also due to the matchup and the way it influenced our deployments. That coupled with the 2 other thousand sons DPs with Brotherhood of Sorcerers gave me so much mortal wound potential and psychic phase dominance that it almost seemed guaranteed that all of my spell combos would succeed. I definitely rolled hot that game but still, having 11 casts per turn and having almost none of them fail was pretty incredible. Thousand Sons DPs spamming smites on 5s was great. Horror smites are terrible and I did make the mistake of using them once which increased the smite roll on my LoC enough for him to just barely fail a smite which would have killed a 1w flyrant a turn earlier. But having just one changecaster for backup smites and the LoC with his +2 to cast smites made my non-ksons smite spamming extremely consistent.
Bloodletters always frustrated me due to the morale check and the susceptibility to the backswing after being caught in a screen. I also struggle getting all the bases in melee range so even wehn I bring like 20+ ;letters on the 28mm base I swing with maybe 12 even on the 3d6 charge... Glad to hear a success story.
Skull Cannons ABSOLUTELY have a place in any Daemons list. They are very cheap at 100 points, they don't profile, they ignore cover bonuses (which is real handy post-faq), and can easily deal damage to pretty much everything in the game, to some degree. Sure, d6 shots is unreliable, but strength 8, BS 3+, -2 AP and d3 damage are pretty solid. In my experience, they're actually a very, very good anti-infantry gun. They wound most of any infantry models on a 2+, and the -2 means that even Marines have to roll a 5+ to avoid damage, and the d3 means you can pretty effectively kill TEQs.
Heck, i've used skull cannons to great effect against light tanks as well. Not vindicators or anything like that, but Dreadnaughts and Predators will at least get a healthy chunk taken out of them each turn. And with their solid melee stats, a skull cannon can protect itself without needing serious bubblewrapping.
Yeah, taking two of the same power to give it plenty of threat range is solid. I used to do similar with Warptime back when it made Warp Talons and Terminators into wrecking balls. Even played Familiar to use it in an unexpected location, on occasion.
Did Familiar in Death Hex to take down Herald Deathwolf’s Storm Shield once, back when it was a 2++. Got me like six VPs in the mission I was playing. Would definitely consider doubling it up in a similar list to yours.
vaklor4 wrote: Skull Cannons ABSOLUTELY have a place in any Daemons list. They are very cheap at 100 points, they don't profile, they ignore cover bonuses (which is real handy post-faq), and can easily deal damage to pretty much everything in the game, to some degree. Sure, d6 shots is unreliable, but strength 8, BS 3+, -2 AP and d3 damage are pretty solid. In my experience, they're actually a very, very good anti-infantry gun. They wound most of any infantry models on a 2+, and the -2 means that even Marines have to roll a 5+ to avoid damage, and the d3 means you can pretty effectively kill TEQs.
Heck, i've used skull cannons to great effect against light tanks as well. Not vindicators or anything like that, but Dreadnaughts and Predators will at least get a healthy chunk taken out of them each turn. And with their solid melee stats, a skull cannon can protect itself without needing serious bubblewrapping.
My army is a mix though, it's CSM and Daemons (because it uses a lot of heavy options from both). So I have Princes, Maulerfiend, Inferno Predator, considering some terminators or obliterators, Tzeentch Flamers as an anti-infantry deepstrike unit.
Have a few hundred points spare though, and am wanting to fill it with more biggies. Hence considering skull cannon, or fateskimmer, or a contemptor (or even a leviathan).
Considered an armiger, but that would mean needing a super-heavy detachment, and I am already using 3 detachments.
Edit: Realised I didn't make my point that actually replies to your message haha. Skull Cannon seems good for a pure Daemons army, but is there any other better (for the cheap points) options if you add in the CSM/FW options available?
I'm assuming that what you mean is that you have death hex on two casters so that you can spread them out, and so whichever part of your army gets attacked by a flyrant on any particular turn, you have someone around to hex it to help you kill it?
Yep that's what I meant by double death hex. Can't cast two in the same turn but you can have two casters with them so you can cover both flanks and if one goes down you still have another to fly or warptime over to the other side and blow up that flyrant
I'm assuming that what you mean is that you have death hex on two casters so that you can spread them out, and so whichever part of your army gets attacked by a flyrant on any particular turn, you have someone around to hex it to help you kill it?
Yep that's what I meant by double death hex. Can't cast two in the same turn but you can have two casters with them so you can cover both flanks and if one goes down you still have another to fly or warptime over to the other side and blow up that flyrant
Yeh that makes sense, I've considered doubling up on certain important powers too but I often prefer to have variety. Depends on the list of course.
Death hex is just one of those incredibly threatening but kind of hard to pull off/risky spells since it only has a 12" range and WC8. I always used to take it on my CSM Sorcerers in my cultist gunlines but I would either A) never be in range to cast it or B) the sorcerer gets jumped by a flying beatstick and dies or C) the sorcerer just fails his the cast.
Having two death hexes with a free Gaze of Fate reroll and with the +1 to cast on Ahriman really helped me ensure I got value out of that spell. Even if the flying beatstick kills one death hexer, it still dies to the other. Now that I think about it, only having 1 death hex on a regular CSM sorcerer seems pretty unreliable because even if he warptimes his way into range, he still has a pretty high chance of failing to cast, which means the beatstick keeps his invuln, survives combat, and eats the sorcerer the following turn. Death Hex on a Weaver of Fates DP or Ahriman backed up by Gaze of Fate seems like the way to go.
Skull Cannon is a unit that sees 0 competitive play. The damage is bellow average for it's points. Durability is OK. However when you can just ally in stuff like obliterators, knights, DG vehicles - there's no point in taking Skull Cannons.
Burning Chariots are about on the same level as Skull Cannons with some cool stuff like FLY, faster movement, autohits but lower damage and durability.
For Skull Cannon to be good it needs to be 70-80 pts instead of 100.
For Burning chariots to be good they need to be about 80 pts instead of 120
18 CP, I'll spend 7 on reserves (bloodmaster, Skarbrand and big bloodletter blobs), and another 4 to give banners of blood. Considering an additional for crimson crown or the Nurgle sword on a DP, but I don't think either are needed. I'll have 7cp to play with and probably blow in the first 2 turns. Plan is to cover all objectives with nurglings as well as harass. Move a PB blob to mid field and act as a tarpit (miasma for -2 to hit). 3 DP for any fliers or big targets. Then T2, +40 bloodletters bomb in with skarbrand and do what they do best.
I've run a similar list in the past, you're gonna have a bad day if you get a long deployment type/go second due to being full melee. With that said, here are my suggestions:
Firstly, I'd suggest you reduce your bloodletter squads to 20x, that way you save 2 CP when putting them in reserve. I'd spend the spare points to max out your PB screen (and use your spare CP to do warp surge on that screen, in the instance you go second). Or, if you wanted to go whole hog, you could upgrade your third bloodletter squad to 20x + banner +instrument instead. The problem I find with big blood letter squads is that they rarely survive past the first turn, and even with 3d6+reroll charges, they don't always all get in range to swing due to the sheer number of models.
Secondly, I'd spend the one CP for an extra relic as well, especially if your gameplan is to drop the herald w/ the letter bombs, you'll be generating a ton of bonus hits.
Thirdly, I'd prioritize your CP expenditure around warp surge/insane bravery to protect your screen (and Skarbrand once he drops, as he tends to draw a lot of attention). There's enough dakka in the game to wipe a full PB army out first turn, so always always always warp surge them if you end up going second.
Fourthly, I tend to either wipe my opponent out or get tabled when I play a Khorne Daemon heavy list. saving a 3 CP in the pocket to attack a second time is a major clutch move for your list. Very hard to do with 7 CP, but weigh your options. It might make more sense to remove wings from your Khorne DP (reducing his cp by 1) or starting him on foot. If you make Skarbrand your warlord he can buff rerolls.
Finally, pick your melee phases carefully, if you charge a knight and a smash captain in the same phase, just expect your opponent to interrupt. a knight will turn your blood letter bomb into blood letter jelly real fast. The same goes for your skull reaver DP. Also, once blood letter bombs are deployed, they're extremely slow, so be careful not to be baited into a corner of the map, that you'll have to foot slog out of.
vaklor4 wrote: Skull Cannons ABSOLUTELY have a place in any Daemons list. They are very cheap at 100 points, they don't profile, they ignore cover bonuses (which is real handy post-faq), and can easily deal damage to pretty much everything in the game, to some degree. Sure, d6 shots is unreliable, but strength 8, BS 3+, -2 AP and d3 damage are pretty solid. In my experience, they're actually a very, very good anti-infantry gun. They wound most of any infantry models on a 2+, and the -2 means that even Marines have to roll a 5+ to avoid damage, and the d3 means you can pretty effectively kill TEQs.
Heck, i've used skull cannons to great effect against light tanks as well. Not vindicators or anything like that, but Dreadnaughts and Predators will at least get a healthy chunk taken out of them each turn. And with their solid melee stats, a skull cannon can protect itself without needing serious bubblewrapping.
My army is a mix though, it's CSM and Daemons (because it uses a lot of heavy options from both). So I have Princes, Maulerfiend, Inferno Predator, considering some terminators or obliterators, Tzeentch Flamers as an anti-infantry deepstrike unit.
Have a few hundred points spare though, and am wanting to fill it with more biggies. Hence considering skull cannon, or fateskimmer, or a contemptor (or even a leviathan).
Considered an armiger, but that would mean needing a super-heavy detachment, and I am already using 3 detachments.
Edit: Realised I didn't make my point that actually replies to your message haha. Skull Cannon seems good for a pure Daemons army, but is there any other better (for the cheap points) options if you add in the CSM/FW options available?
Cheaper? No. Better? Yes. Leviathan Dread is better, and Helverian Armigers are better, but both cost well over the cost of a skull cannon. The skull cannon has a low amount of fire power..But the beauty of it is that it costs 100 flat. There is nothing (even in the range of helbrutes) that can boast that cheap of a point cost for a heavy weapons platform with high toughness.
Waelfwulf wrote: I've run a similar list in the past, you're gonna have a bad day if you get a long deployment type/go second due to being full melee. With that said, here are my suggestions:
Firstly, I'd suggest you reduce your bloodletter squads to 20x, that way you save 2 CP when putting them in reserve. I'd spend the spare points to max out your PB screen (and use your spare CP to do warp surge on that screen, in the instance you go second). Or, if you wanted to go whole hog, you could upgrade your third bloodletter squad to 20x + banner +instrument instead. The problem I find with big blood letter squads is that they rarely survive past the first turn, and even with 3d6+reroll charges, they don't always all get in range to swing due to the sheer number of models.
Secondly, I'd spend the one CP for an extra relic as well, especially if your gameplan is to drop the herald w/ the letter bombs, you'll be generating a ton of bonus hits.
Thirdly, I'd prioritize your CP expenditure around warp surge/insane bravery to protect your screen (and Skarbrand once he drops, as he tends to draw a lot of attention). There's enough dakka in the game to wipe a full PB army out first turn, so always always always warp surge them if you end up going second.
Fourthly, I tend to either wipe my opponent out or get tabled when I play a Khorne Daemon heavy list. saving a 3 CP in the pocket to attack a second time is a major clutch move for your list. Very hard to do with 7 CP, but weigh your options. It might make more sense to remove wings from your Khorne DP (reducing his cp by 1) or starting him on foot. If you make Skarbrand your warlord he can buff rerolls.
Finally, pick your melee phases carefully, if you charge a knight and a smash captain in the same phase, just expect your opponent to interrupt. a knight will turn your blood letter bomb into blood letter jelly real fast. The same goes for your skull reaver DP. Also, once blood letter bombs are deployed, they're extremely slow, so be careful not to be baited into a corner of the map, that you'll have to foot slog out of.
I'll try the smaller blobs, I was focusing too much on the +1 WS for +20, I figure a few will die on overwatch, no matter what I charge. If the Khorne Prince can be nearby, it shouldn't hurt that bad to be WS3. I hadn't ever really looked at the Khorne strats, 3CP to sing again is legit, so more CP is better for me. I wanted the axe DP from khorne because I've heard such amazing things about his damage output. If I face a pesky flier, I want to make sure I have something that can deal with it quickly, or at least scare it enough to force it away from key targets. Also, starting him on the table without wings seems crazy to me. I don't know i I've ever used a prince without wings. Though with the fly nerf, I'll have to see how big the difference is. Charging over things was the biggest perk, as well as getting up on ruins to munch on infantry.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
Well, bare in mind the Juggernaut riding Herald is still probably the best of the 3 options, so you can still turn one or two juggerbois into those. But yeah trust me, as a proud owner of 12 Bloodcrushers, it pains me how bad they are.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
Well, bare in mind the Juggernaut riding Herald is still probably the best of the 3 options, so you can still turn one or two juggerbois into those. But yeah trust me, as a proud owner of 12 Bloodcrushers, it pains me how bad they are.
Is the juggerherald actually good? I'm tempted to convert skullcrushers into bloodcrushers, but I think they'd work even better as either juggerherald or a mounted Lord maybe.
chimeara wrote: How are Bloodcrushers on the table? They seem great on paper, but does it translate?
They aren't good. Like, HILARIOUSLY compared to anything else the Khorne Daemons have to offer. They get outclassed in speed by hounds, and outclassed in durability and offensive power by Bloodletters. I've done math, i've played games, and I can safely tell you that at 47 ppm, the Bloodcrusher is one of the most redundantly bad units in the game.
That's unfortunate. I really want them to be good. I've been building up the ranks of my daemons.
Well, bare in mind the Juggernaut riding Herald is still probably the best of the 3 options, so you can still turn one or two juggerbois into those. But yeah trust me, as a proud owner of 12 Bloodcrushers, it pains me how bad they are.
Is the juggerherald actually good? I'm tempted to convert skullcrushers into bloodcrushers, but I think they'd work even better as either juggerherald or a mounted Lord maybe.
They have more durability than normal heralds, are 2" faster, have better melee, and still have a relative small base compared to the massive blood throne. The normal herald you need to more or less protect, because a stiff breeze kills it. With the juggerherald, it really feels like a tough nut to crack.
Usually when I run normal heralds, it's for the rerolls to charge. Syncing with my various Daemon robots or the occasional warp talons. Or if I need a cheap HQ to back up a small unit of BL that are capping objectives.
Cheaper? No. Better? Yes. Leviathan Dread is better, and Helverian Armigers are better, but both cost well over the cost of a skull cannon. The skull cannon has a low amount of fire power..But the beauty of it is that it costs 100 flat. There is nothing (even in the range of helbrutes) that can boast that cheap of a point cost for a heavy weapons platform with high toughness.
Yes but what's the point? So instead of taking 2 helverins, you take 3 cannons so that you give away 3 kill points? You're not filling any spearheads with them, I don't think. Helverins and Skullcannons have basically the same durability BTW
Well, if you’re taking a load of Bloodletters, one advantage of the SC over the Armigers is that they’re not requiring another detachment.
Plus, if a big chunk of your ranged firepower ignores cover, then your opponent spending 2CP for +1 save against your Horrors or Blight-haulers or Defiler becomes less efficient.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think they’re sufficiently viable for me to start working out how to convert a couple to have aesthetics I like
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is a Khorne Brigade looking viable-ish?
Um... even with cover Helverins are better damage for their points... That's the problem. Helverins also have better range and they are way more reliable with 4D3 shots per helverin instead of D6 shots per skull cannon and 3 damage instead of D3 damage.
And if you take them you can build a superheavy detachment for 3CP (you have to include a big boy ofc)
I mean, if you're going for khorne daemons only - they are not terrible. They've just average to bellow average.
However... a brigade requires 3 units of Bloodcrushers.............................................................................................................................................
lindsay40k wrote: Well, if you’re taking a load of Bloodletters, one advantage of the SC over the Armigers is that they’re not requiring another detachment.
Plus, if a big chunk of your ranged firepower ignores cover, then your opponent spending 2CP for +1 save against your Horrors or Blight-haulers or Defiler becomes less efficient.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think they’re sufficiently viable for me to start working out how to convert a couple to have aesthetics I like
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is a Khorne Brigade looking viable-ish?
It would if their elites werent so bloated. At 47 ppm, and needing to field 9 for a brigade, you end up wasting way too many points on a largely worthless unit.
That feeling when you drop 100 points off of all greater daemons and only Nurgle is as survivable as current Gallant and Flyrant. Do you think greater daemons would be viable at -100pts. I honestly doubt it. Flyrants can deepstrike for free, are faster, have guns, have the same amount of powers (and stronger powers IMO),have a -1 to psychic test aura, have synapse...
So, my group is playing power levels, not points. Which I’m fine with. I’ve got this as a 50PL Khorne list currently:
Heavy Support Detachment:
Daemon Prince: Khorne, talons, wings, crimson crown, undecided warlord trait currently (9)
Three skull cannons (15 total)
Ten fleshhounds (8)
Two units of 20 Bloodletters (16)
Two PL left, 4 command points (for blood banners and deep striking BLs). The cannons hammer from a distance and every six they roll in their opening wound salvo gives an additional shot (which is D6) so the numbers have the possibility to rack up. Plus the Prince lets them re-roll ones. Dogs are a bit chompy screen, and as an opponent closes in, the Bloodletters drop with a re-rollable charge of 3D6+1. Ouch?
Yes, a Helverin is better than a Skull Cannon. I agree on that. It also costs 74% more, and guarantees almost half your opponents will pop smoke on the first turn thereby reducing the rest of your guns’ effectiveness, and in most tourneys will commit one of your three detachments - and need a big expensive third model to yield decent CP.
So. Two Helverins:
- R60 (very good)
- 16ish shots (very good)
- wounding T4 on a 3+, T7 on a 4+, T8 on a 5+ (not bad)
- AP -1 that can be countered by cover (not great)
- 3 damage (very good)
- vulnerable in melee (largely irrelevant)
- M14 (very handy when the enemy close)
- 24W (good)
- deteriorating BS (not good)
- lose half of them when a volcano type gun sneezes (not common, but there you go)
- little to no synergies beyond an ok Stratagem
- somewhat constrains rest of list
That’s viable. I agree, it’s a good unit.
Three Skull Cannons:
- R48 (good)
- 10.5ish shots (ok)
- wounding T4 on a 2+, T7 on a 3+, T8 on a 4+ (good)
- AP -2 that ignores cover (good)
- D3 damage (mediocre)
- can bully in melee (mostly mediocre on a gunner unit)
- M6 (bad)
- 21W (good)
- no deteriorating profile (good)
- lose a third of them when a volcano type gun sneezes (not common, but there you go)
- synergies with DP, CC (not ideal use of those buffs without, say, a LoS getting in on it, but there you go)
- can be part of a Daemons (or Khorne) detachment, 52 points cheaper than above
That’s viable *enough* for me to put a couple on my daemon engines jamboree to-do list and not feel I’ve been sold a Forgefiend with a dodgy gearbox
My hope is that with the next chapter approved, GW will look at what units are not showing up at all, and improve them, instead of mostly looking at spam and bringing the spam units down.
Yes, you can say that everything can be nerfed to the same level, but points adjustments with Khorne daemons will never work. The units are too similar and all have the exact same role. We need bloodcrushers to do something that bloodletters cannot, like be a decent anvil unit. Give them back their +3 save and T5 and I bet we would see them on the table from time to time. They could then compete with units like TWC as a shock unit, instead of us just defaulting to units of 20 bloodletters.
Honestly if bloodcrushers were better than bloodletters statistically(which would be at 20 or less points, not 47 like they are now) - they'd see play along with letters, who would still be taken for their troop benefits
I personally think 30 points is a good range for bloodcrushers. I dont like when they change datasheets, so any attempt to beef them up would just be more confusing for me. At least with points you can simply keep a sticky note in your book.
Well mathematically bloodcrushers do inferior damage until they are 20 points. However even THEN they still do less damage against high armour targets. How insane is that?
However they could compensate that with better durability at that point, they're easier to manage in terms of morale, they cost less CP to deepstrike+3D6 charge.
BUUUUUUUUUUUT remember, again. Bloodleeters still give CP, have obsec (it actually matters often), have more models for board control, better surround, have smaller bases so they can fit through gaps and snipe characters, are infantry so they can climb ruins, etc.
Like, as crazy as it is to think - if I wanted to build an optimal daemons only list... I still might not include bloodcrushers even if they were 20 points a model...
Letters aren't the issue since they're not dominating the game. Not even close. If you take 20 chaos lists that went top 8 in big tournaments, maybe like 5 lists have letters
You cannot deny that letters are good, and honestly I think they are in a good place. They have some of the highest CC damage potential in the game. For 3-4 CP you can have them deep strike and have something like a 90% chance to make the charge with a pretty decent chance of murdering whatever they hit. They don't dominate tournaments because they are a glass shotgun, which doesn't work well in tournaments.
I agree that with cheap screens and daemons having hilariously bad shooting, they will never be a dominating force. They are not a problem, but they are very good. I think they are in a great place.
Bloodcrushers are basically bloodletters with some extra stats and points. Which doesn't do squat for them when those extra stats don't measure up to the extra points.
Lets look at what other gods have to compare functionality a little.
Nurgle:
Beasts: mostly useless, but have mechanic to harm falling back
Drones: Flying cavalry. Useful for tarpits, FLY still very useful, and have weight of attacks.
Slaanesh:
Seekers: Basically faster daemonettes
Fiends: anti psyker and doesn't let enemies fall back
Tzeentch:
Flamers, flying flamethrowers, FLY and auto hitting
Screamers, FLY melee units
Khorne is the only one where all 3 slots are nearly identical
Flesh hounds: anti psyker, fast ground melee
Bloodcrushers, fast ground melee
Bloodletters, ground melee.
Slaanesh isn't in the best place either, but anyone could have told you that. Personally I think lacking a unit that flies (NOT FURIES) hurts khorne and slaanesh. I'm not saying screamers are an MVP and spammed, but screamers and drones are at least useful compared to crushers.
I think either re-work them so they are durable, or re-work them to give us reliable high strength anti armor from the mount. Change devastating charge to have ap 3 and 2dmg on the charge or something. Maybe mortal wounds instead?
Whatever they do, it makes me sad that they are so outclassed by bloodletters and hounds.
Fun fact, they are 7pt more expensive than a naked thunderwolf. For 7pt more than a bloodcrusher, that TWC can have a stormshield and power sword, making them far more durable, faster, but less dmg output.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well mathematically bloodcrushers do inferior damage until they are 20 points. However even THEN they still do less damage against high armour targets. How insane is that?
However they could compensate that with better durability at that point, they're easier to manage in terms of morale, they cost less CP to deepstrike+3D6 charge.
BUUUUUUUUUUUT remember, again. Bloodleeters still give CP, have obsec (it actually matters often), have more models for board control, better surround, have smaller bases so they can fit through gaps and snipe characters, are infantry so they can climb ruins, etc.
Like, as crazy as it is to think - if I wanted to build an optimal daemons only list... I still might not include bloodcrushers even if they were 20 points a model...
I don't think crushers will ever get to 20 points, just saying.
However, the poster before me mentioned that TWC are 7 points cheaper... and if crushers dropped in price to be the same as TWC (which is possible), then I think they'd be more popular.
Not because they're suddenly become overpowered for their points, but simply because they'd be a more reasonable price and they're a damn cool model.
If they gained a tweak to their rules as well, such as bonus damage on the charge, to make them more powerful vs vehicles or something (tank flipping wild boars ftw) then I think they'd see a lot more use.
Hell, I'm tempted to run a unit of them now, just because they're so much cooler than hordes of bloodletters.
dan2026 wrote: Seekers also have the problem of making Daemonettes redundant. It's like reverse of the Crusher/Letter problem.
But at least it's the other way around. THe Daemonettes are on par with seekers simply because they fill out the troop slot, and can obsec. Where with the Khorne boys, everything is in favor of the troop choice, making the elite choice basically a useless entry.
One way I think it could easily be fixed for Bloodcrushers is if they get the ability of the Skull Cannon and Bloodthrone, where they can potentially deal MW on the charge. It could make them pretty good.
Funny thing, back in the day ‘automatic wounds that ignore saves upon charging’ used to be the Juggernaut’s unique gimmick.
By that way, disagree that they constitute ‘fast ground melee’. They’re anaemic Helbrutes, not bikers. If they had a race to the enemy lines, Daemonettes would get there first.
Probably do more damage per point, as well.
...can we agree that ‘Bloodcrushers suck’ and move on?
lindsay40k wrote: Funny thing, back in the day ‘automatic wounds that ignore saves upon charging’ used to be the Juggernaut’s unique gimmick.
By that way, disagree that they constitute ‘fast ground melee’. They’re anaemic Helbrutes, not bikers. If they had a race to the enemy lines, Daemonettes would get there first.
Probably do more damage per point, as well.
...can we agree that ‘Bloodcrushers suck’ and move on?
Never! We must run this into the ground, and through the crust of the earth!
lindsay40k wrote: Funny thing, back in the day ‘automatic wounds that ignore saves upon charging’ used to be the Juggernaut’s unique gimmick.
By that way, disagree that they constitute ‘fast ground melee’. They’re anaemic Helbrutes, not bikers. If they had a race to the enemy lines, Daemonettes would get there first.
Probably do more damage per point, as well.
...can we agree that ‘Bloodcrushers suck’ and move on?
Never! We must run this into the ground, and through the crust of the earth!
Niiru wrote: Also... but the models are so coooooool...
Unfortunately, there are a lot of models in this game, and even plenty that are in the Chaos Daemons faction (besides Bloodcrushers), that have awesome amazing models that will never see competitive play because their rules are cabbage. Bloodthirsters and Kairos Fateweaver are examples, as are most of the chariots, and Screamers of Tzeentch. Great models with crap rules is unfortunately a thing with 40k.
Niiru wrote: Also... but the models are so coooooool...
Unfortunately, there are a lot of models in this game, and even plenty that are in the Chaos Daemons faction (besides Bloodcrushers), that have awesome amazing models that will never see competitive play because their rules are cabbage. Bloodthirsters and Kairos Fateweaver are examples, as are most of the chariots, and Screamers of Tzeentch. Great models with crap rules is unfortunately a thing with 40k.
I thought screamers were meant to be ok? I mean not great but not bad. I was considering converting some canoptek wraiths into screamers haha. Or plague drones maybe.
In my casual experience, screamers are fantastic super fast anti-heavy units. They just have that dreaded 2 wounds. However, that 4++ at least makes them pretty durable against Plasma.
Already that's really close. Except you can get 4+ letters for 1 screamer. Also letters get into combat more often than seekers do. Also letters are troops. Like it's crazy how gak the daemons codex is. Remember, from day 1 I've said:
Letters, Bearers, Horrors, Nurglings, support cast(herald, DP)
If you want to take a good pure daemon list there is no point in taking anything else. Not only is that the most optimal combination mathematically and utility wise(troops), it is also a gamebreaking combination because it makes your opponent's anti-tank useless as it has nothing to shoot at but troops.
Glad we've established everyone here loves the bloodcrusher models
Kairos is at least playable if you run him as an LoC. The warp surge nerf hurt a bit but the natural T7 3++ with a "serpent shield" was already pretty annoying to deal with without it. I wanna say he's perfectly scary in a gimmick list at any level of play outside of a totally optimized tournament meta. From that "what kind of player are you" poll thread I think an LoC-based list fits nicely in the "competitive-casual" bracket, which seems to be the level that most people like to play 40k anyway. Completely ignoring enemy heavy weapons is a hilarious curve ball for a competitive-casual opponent and if you get lucky with deployments and rolls the LoC has enough MW potential to make a big impact in a match.
I am totally biased and still high off my last victory against nids though. First time winning as pure daemons in 8th, against a pretty competitive nid list too. Daemons has been my biggest time/money investment since returning to 40k in 8th and their performance has been disappointing since their codex dropped. We are one of the weird armies that actually got nerfed from broken-OP tier to bottom tier by our codex. Then the double nerf on brimstones and blues with smite changes.
Last game my brims did manage to kill a genestealer in CC at one point, which was way more than I expected. But I want to say both blues and brims are basically garbage tier right now. They don't damage, they can't really take fire, and they can't really smite. The one time I did try smiting with brims first I failed and then the +1 smite roll was actually just enough to fail the real smite roll on my changecaster. Brims are basically bad at everything except cheap battalions right now. Even then I'd rather pay the 50 extra points for a 3x3 nurglings battalion.
I will be bringing this 1k list against a new player on Friday. He says he's still learning (under 10 games played so far) so I don't want to bring 3x3 obliterators or the Ahriman supreme command just yet. But I also don't want to get accidentally steamrolled in case he's one of those new guys embarking on the competitive path.
1x Lord of Change - Baleful Sword, Impossible Robe, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Bolt of Change
1x Daemon Prince of Khorne - Wings, Skullreaver
2 x 20 Bloodletters
2 x 4 Nurglings
By the way, Battlescribe lists warp bolters as an option for Chaos Daemons DPs, but I can't seem to find it anywhere in the actual book. It's also weirdly 9pts in Battlescribe instead of 3pts as usual. Are Chaos Daemons princes actually allowed to take warp bolters? EDIT: Nvm, it's a piece of index gear.
Already that's really close. Except you can get 4+ letters for 1 screamer. Also letters get into combat more often than seekers do. Also letters are troops. Like it's crazy how gak the daemons codex is. Remember, from day 1 I've said:
Letters, Bearers, Horrors, Nurglings, support cast(herald, DP)
If you want to take a good pure daemon list there is no point in taking anything else. Not only is that the most optimal combination mathematically and utility wise(troops), it is also a gamebreaking combination because it makes your opponent's anti-tank useless as it has nothing to shoot at but troops.
You're missing the whole picture. Screamers can also cause mortal wounds just by moving over a unit. Which isn't too hard with a 16" move. You should also have a Fluxmaster or Fateskimmer (Fateskimmer is faster) following them around to bump their strength to 7. If they are also in a pure Tzeentch detachment (which they should be) the fluxmaster or fateskimmer will also give them Locus of Trickery for free which also helps them in their CC role. They then can attempt to cast Boon of Change on the unit every turn and all the results are good for Screamers. Warp Surge stratagem effectively gives them a 3++ save for 2CP.
YES, it's "combo wombo". And NO it won't work every time reliably because dice and your opponent (but you can say this about everything in the game), BUT they can be a threat and fun to play.
The flyover was screamers gimmick in the last few editions that had them seeing play often as well. I couldn't ever really get it to work right for me, which lead to a lot of lost games lol.
On the subject of games, my troop heavy Nurgle/Khorne list did fantastic against Custodes. I placed some of the nurglings on objectives, but also gave up easy first blood to try to bait my opponent to charge some that were 9" away, and directly in front of my 10 letters. The nature of the custodes army meant part of the table was pretty empty, so I plopped my 10 over there.
I forgot to warp surge EVERY SINGLE TIME I needed to. My opponent was also playing quickly enough that by the time I realized it was the phase I needed, it was too late. This is why I don't do tournaments lol. I popped it once, when a nurgle prince had been charged by 3 spear dudes on foot. They did ONE wound, biggest waste of 2CP ever.
It was the first game where I've got to swing with the Axe DP, and it was glorious. My opponent charged ALL the nurglings that were mid field, which gave up a ton of objectives, he had 6 points at the end of turn 1. However, I had killed his warlord and crippled a chunk of his army. Khorne prince straight deleted his jet bike captain dude, who was said to be "unkillable" at the beginning of the game, I got a grin after he died. 9 bloodletters charged a unit of 3 custodes, killed 2 and left one with a single wound, then surrounded it. Holy gak bloodletters are insane! Got another grin on my opponent's turn 2, when he charged a bunch into the axe prince, did 2 dmg, then I interrupted and did 12 dmg to another character, crippling his buffs pretty hard.
On my T2, I dropped the bomb of skarbrand, 40 letters and herald (bloodmaster?, whatever his new name is) Made the charges with the 2 blobs, chained to be in range of crimson crown (which I forgot about, even though I spent CP for it) and skarbrand (who I chose as warlord at the advice here, good advice!) He just picked up the infantry that were charged, I resolved attacks against his telemon, surounded it in CC scored 5 points, and he tossed in the towel. He had a telemon stuck in CC, the hover tank, a jet bike HQ, and a single normal dude surrounded by bloodlettersleft.
silly highlight? T1, 3 nurglings got charged by 3 custodes. 1 nurgling base died, and the remaining 2 did 2 dmg to a custodian when my opponent rolled snake eyes. He had some trash rolls when fighting in CC on the first turn. His dice were super swingy, awesome one roll, gak the next. I plan on trying the same list against more people, and potentially running mono khorne some time in the future. Nurgle knows I have enough models for it!
You're missing the whole picture. Screamers can also cause mortal wounds just by moving over a unit. Which isn't too hard with a 16" move. You should also have a Fluxmaster or Fateskimmer (Fateskimmer is faster) following them around to bump their strength to 7. If they are also in a pure Tzeentch detachment (which they should be) the fluxmaster or fateskimmer will also give them Locus of Trickery for free which also helps them in their CC role. They then can attempt to cast Boon of Change on the unit every turn and all the results are good for Screamers. Warp Surge stratagem effectively gives them a 3++ save for 2CP.
YES, it's "combo wombo". And NO it won't work every time reliably because dice and your opponent (but you can say this about everything in the game), BUT they can be a threat and fun to play.
Ok, so they cause mortal wounds on a SIX. Ok. A herald can't really keep up with them and they can't screen for him so that's not happening. Locus of Trickery is a joke that a lot of people forget to use, if you roll a single 1 on the two dice, the ability is useless. A single 2 also often makes it do nothing at all. Boon of Change is a joke of a spell that probably wasn't cast on the top tables of a big tournament in the entire 8th edition. Extra strength can easily be useless if you're fighting Toughness 1,2,3,4,5,8,9 stuff and since you cast it after the movement phase you can't really pick targets. You're better off just using any other spell instead most of the times. Finally almost everyone has access to warp surge and they usually get more benefits from it than screamers(Going from 5++ to 4++ is a better durability increase than 4++ to 3++)
If screamers were any good, they'd see competitive play. Right now they are not even close to stuff like cultists, tzangors, daemon troops, DPs, DG tanks, etc. who are all more durable and do more damage. Screamers are only for capturing objectives in far away places. However they're not obsec so they're not even good for that
You're missing the whole picture. Screamers can also cause mortal wounds just by moving over a unit. Which isn't too hard with a 16" move. You should also have a Fluxmaster or Fateskimmer (Fateskimmer is faster) following them around to bump their strength to 7. If they are also in a pure Tzeentch detachment (which they should be) the fluxmaster or fateskimmer will also give them Locus of Trickery for free which also helps them in their CC role. They then can attempt to cast Boon of Change on the unit every turn and all the results are good for Screamers. Warp Surge stratagem effectively gives them a 3++ save for 2CP.
YES, it's "combo wombo". And NO it won't work every time reliably because dice and your opponent (but you can say this about everything in the game), BUT they can be a threat and fun to play.
Ok, so they cause mortal wounds on a SIX. Ok. A herald can't really keep up with them and they can't screen for him so that's not happening. Locus of Trickery is a joke that a lot of people forget to use, if you roll a single 1 on the two dice, the ability is useless. A single 2 also often makes it do nothing at all. Boon of Change is a joke of a spell that probably wasn't cast on the top tables of a big tournament in the entire 8th edition. Extra strength can easily be useless if you're fighting Toughness 1,2,3,4,5,8,9 stuff and since you cast it after the movement phase you can't really pick targets. You're better off just using any other spell instead most of the times. Finally almost everyone has access to warp surge and they usually get more benefits from it than screamers(Going from 5++ to 4++ is a better durability increase than 4++ to 3++)
If screamers were any good, they'd see competitive play. Right now they are not even close to stuff like cultists, tzangors, daemon troops, DPs, DG tanks, etc. who are all more durable and do more damage. Screamers are only for capturing objectives in far away places. However they're not obsec so they're not even good for that
If screamers were top tier tournament cheese theyd see play. Only a very select amount of units are "amazing". Just because they arent a 9/10 on the power scale it doesnt magically make them total unplayable trash.
You're missing the whole picture. Screamers can also cause mortal wounds just by moving over a unit. Which isn't too hard with a 16" move. You should also have a Fluxmaster or Fateskimmer (Fateskimmer is faster) following them around to bump their strength to 7. If they are also in a pure Tzeentch detachment (which they should be) the fluxmaster or fateskimmer will also give them Locus of Trickery for free which also helps them in their CC role. They then can attempt to cast Boon of Change on the unit every turn and all the results are good for Screamers. Warp Surge stratagem effectively gives them a 3++ save for 2CP.
YES, it's "combo wombo". And NO it won't work every time reliably because dice and your opponent (but you can say this about everything in the game), BUT they can be a threat and fun to play.
Ok, so they cause mortal wounds on a SIX. Ok. A herald can't really keep up with them and they can't screen for him so that's not happening. Locus of Trickery is a joke that a lot of people forget to use, if you roll a single 1 on the two dice, the ability is useless. A single 2 also often makes it do nothing at all. Boon of Change is a joke of a spell that probably wasn't cast on the top tables of a big tournament in the entire 8th edition. Extra strength can easily be useless if you're fighting Toughness 1,2,3,4,5,8,9 stuff and since you cast it after the movement phase you can't really pick targets. You're better off just using any other spell instead most of the times. Finally almost everyone has access to warp surge and they usually get more benefits from it than screamers(Going from 5++ to 4++ is a better durability increase than 4++ to 3++)
If screamers were any good, they'd see competitive play. Right now they are not even close to stuff like cultists, tzangors, daemon troops, DPs, DG tanks, etc. who are all more durable and do more damage. Screamers are only for capturing objectives in far away places. However they're not obsec so they're not even good for that
If screamers were top tier tournament cheese theyd see play. Only a very select amount of units are "amazing". Just because they arent a 9/10 on the power scale it doesnt magically make them total unplayable trash.
Lol you're right Vaklor.
This is dakka. If they aren't a 10/10 on the overpowered cheese scale, then they're unplayable trash.
Tzeentch list with 2 disc heralds, a Prince, two horror squads, 3 flamer units, 2 Screamer units, and a unit of furies (50PL on the dot). Doable? Gives me 5 command points for juicy re-rolls, a bunch of shooting and psychics and a couple strong melee options. I’m planning to utilize screamers for sure.
And yes, this continues my “friendly” 50PL mono-god lists for pickup games.
Depends on the mission and size of said squads. 5 furies will die quickly to any kind of attention and if you play a lot of kill points that is just free points to the opponent that would have been better spent making one of the other squads bigger.
Otherwise its not bad for friendly games. Has enough threat and fun mixed in to be decent.
We're pretty much doing objective holding, and I've got literally every daemon model available, and in multiples; so I'm just trying to keep things to 1-2 detachments in a 50PL/1000pt list. I can do either, but PL gives my less experienced friends more option to put stuff out and as a daemon player with bare minimum upgrades, I'm penalized more for point usage than a SM player. So it's a hidden challenge for me that they don't know (and don't need to know) about.
All squads are minimum sized; MSU's running around, horrors will probably DS in for mid-game objective steals.
Basically, everything I run in this game setup will be MSU, except when I do Khorne and run two 20-man DSing Bloodletter bombs.
If screamers were top tier tournament cheese theyd see play. Only a very select amount of units are "amazing". Just because they arent a 9/10 on the power scale it doesnt magically make them total unplayable trash.
Lol you're right Vaklor.
This is dakka. If they aren't a 10/10 on the overpowered cheese scale, then they're unplayable trash.
This clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about.
Daemon codex has horrors, letters, bearers, heralds and skullreaver DP. Done and done. Plague Drones were a thing before the FLY FAQ too. Now probably not.
They are not all amazingly competitive, but they have niches they fill, they have unique rules and stratagem,trait interactions. Daemons are mostly all beatsticks. Which is why they are way more prone to being mathhammered out of the game. We just got the short end of the stick.
Hooooooooowever. I just got word that we'll be getting new models and rules(!). That's probably because the Daemon co x was rushed out for Nurgle. And now we'll get more Khorne and Slaanesh models and if my source didn't mistype - we'll get new rules, which could be a summoning overhaul to make it like Sigmar where you can always summon stuff and don't need reserves.
If screamers were top tier tournament cheese theyd see play. Only a very select amount of units are "amazing". Just because they arent a 9/10 on the power scale it doesnt magically make them total unplayable trash.
Lol you're right Vaklor.
This is dakka. If they aren't a 10/10 on the overpowered cheese scale, then they're unplayable trash.
This clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about.
Daemon codex has horrors, letters, bearers, heralds and skullreaver DP. Done and done. Plague Drones were a thing before the FLY FAQ too. Now probably not.
They are not all amazingly competitive, but they have niches they fill, they have unique rules and stratagem,trait interactions. Daemons are mostly all beatsticks. Which is why they are way more prone to being mathhammered out of the game.
Was that a reply to me?
If so.... WHOOOOOOOOSHHHHHH!
You'd need to be stretch armstrong to reach that one.
If screamers were top tier tournament cheese theyd see play. Only a very select amount of units are "amazing". Just because they arent a 9/10 on the power scale it doesnt magically make them total unplayable trash.
Lol you're right Vaklor.
This is dakka. If they aren't a 10/10 on the overpowered cheese scale, then they're unplayable trash.
This clearly shows you don't know what you're talking about.
Daemon codex has horrors, letters, bearers, heralds and skullreaver DP. Done and done. Plague Drones were a thing before the FLY FAQ too. Now probably not.
They are not all amazingly competitive, but they have niches they fill, they have unique rules and stratagem,trait interactions. Daemons are mostly all beatsticks. Which is why they are way more prone to being mathhammered out of the game.
Was that a reply to me?
If so.... WHOOOOOOOOSHHHHHH!
You'd need to be stretch armstrong to reach that one.
I was curious why I couldnt see who you were replying too...Till I realized he was on my ignore list
Ignores in dakka are useless. You keep seeing the person being quoted anyway. It's better to skim messages than to ignore people. Are you that afraid that my messages might hurt your feelings or something that you can't just skim them? To each his own I guess.
Also ignoring me is probably the worst thing you can do since I post all the time(so you won't understand half the conversation) and I post unit analysis(always substantiated by tournament results/mathammer or top player opinions) and leaks.
Edit: you actually quoted me talking about screamers without me being quoted. Meaning you clicked to view my message anyway. What's the point of the ignore then? To make you click every time I post something, lol? Ok, thanks for the effort I guess. Grow a thicker skin, were you really that sad that I said a unit you like sees no play and is suboptimal and needs a buff?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ignores in dakka are useless. You keep seeing the person being quoted anyway. It's better to skim messages than to ignore people. Are you that afraid that my messages might hurt your feelings or something that you can't just skim them? To each his own I guess.
Also ignoring me is probably the worst thing you can do since I post all the time(so you won't understand half the conversation) and I post unit analysis(always substantiated by tournament results/mathammer or top player opinions) and leaks.
Lol aww, you think you're scary.
I have a couple people on here on ignore (not you), and it's not because I'm scared of what they say. It's not even because they make good arguments. It's because most of what they say is wrong, and then when you correct them they get childish and abusive.
So behave yourself, and I won't ignore you. Less of that "you don't know what you're talking about" nonsense, especially when you reply to a post you clearly didn't understand.
I have a couple people on here on ignore (not you), and it's not because I'm scared of what they say. It's not even because they make good arguments. It's because most of what they say is wrong, and then when you correct them they get childish and abusive.
So behave yourself, and I won't ignore you. Less of that "you don't know what you're talking about" nonsense, especially when you reply to a post you clearly didn't understand.
And tell me what I understood wrong:
I saw people saying "the unit has to be completely broken in every way to see competitive play". Which is completelly wrong. There are plenty "OK" units seeing competitive play if they have a niche to fill in the army. Most of the daemon units do not have a niche to fill since they're all the same "beatstick" type of unit.
And I'm not the one who started the ignore discussion. I just felt like I had to respond to that since it involved me.
ANYWAY...
Let's try this again: I just got word that we'll be getting new models and rules(!). That's probably because the Daemon codex was rushed out for Nurgle. And now we'll get more Khorne and Slaanesh models and if my source didn't mistype - we'll get new rules, which could be a summoning overhaul to make it like Sigmar where you can always summon stuff and don't need reserves.
This is more than just "the revealed fiend" or the "slaanesh vs khorne box", btw. So yay, daemons might not be boring as fk to play in competitive kinda sorta maybe perhaps I hope.
I have a couple people on here on ignore (not you), and it's not because I'm scared of what they say. It's not even because they make good arguments. It's because most of what they say is wrong, and then when you correct them they get childish and abusive.
So behave yourself, and I won't ignore you. Less of that "you don't know what you're talking about" nonsense, especially when you reply to a post you clearly didn't understand.
And tell me what I understood wrong:
I saw people saying "the unit has to be completely broken in every way to see competitive play". Which is completelly wrong. There are plenty "OK" units seeing competitive play if they have a niche to fill in the army. Most of the daemon units do not have a niche to fill since they're all the same "beatstick" type of unit.
And I'm not the one who started the ignore discussion. I just felt like I had to respond to that since it involved me.
ANYWAY...
Let's try this again: I just got word that we'll be getting new models and rules(!). That's probably because the Daemon codex was rushed out for Nurgle. And now we'll get more Khorne and Slaanesh models and if my source didn't mistype - we'll get new rules, which could be a summoning overhaul to make it like Sigmar where you can always summon stuff and don't need reserves.
This is more than just "the revealed fiend" or the "slaanesh vs khorne box", btw. So yay, daemons might not be boring as fk to play in competitive kinda sorta maybe perhaps I hope.
There might be an update for rules for the new slaanesh models, but that's not very likely. The new fiend will likely just keep the same rules, with some points tweaks.
There certainly won't be a whole new daemons codex release with new summoning rules, at least not anytime soon. There will be a re-made space marine codex before they start on any of the other factions.
They may well release 'beta summoning rules' in the next big FAQ thought, but that won't be until sometime next year. A new daemons codex... likely be 2020 at the soonest.
Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way
I mean sure, eventually everyone will get new models and new rules, he's bound to be right eventually. If he said "in 2019" then it would be news. But 'at some point in an undefined amount of time' is not news, its clickbait without the clicks.
It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ignores in dakka are useless. You keep seeing the person being quoted anyway. It's better to skim messages than to ignore people. Are you that afraid that my messages might hurt your feelings or something that you can't just skim them? To each his own I guess.
Also ignoring me is probably the worst thing you can do since I post all the time(so you won't understand half the conversation) and I post unit analysis(always substantiated by tournament results/mathammer or top player opinions) and leaks.
Edit: you actually quoted me talking about screamers without me being quoted. Meaning you clicked to view my message anyway. What's the point of the ignore then? To make you click every time I post something, lol? Ok, thanks for the effort I guess. Grow a thicker skin, were you really that sad that I said a unit you like sees no play and is suboptimal and needs a buff?
you are trying to teach garagehammer players (or casual players like they admit to be) how competitive game is, is a waste of time, they cant get it cause they dont play at that level, so yes screamers demonettes GD and so on are viable, is not a better or worse way to play is just one cant understand something is not used to face, when you go at serious tournaments with your awesome garagehammer list and rolled over every single game you understand... anything depend how you want play, my 2 cents.
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Salt donkey wrote: It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.
they are still good, drop them in AiP and buff them, they can single hand kill an IK with virulent blessing on them, pity they have ac 4+ an ap0 so if you are bit unlucky with die rolls or opponent save above average they deliver too few damage for 300+ points unit, btw they have a massive board control and not that easy to dislodge, im always undecided between them and letters, but hit on 2 and ap-3 usually makes the difference, so i go with 30 letters last but not least a full infantry list makes all your opponent antitank worthless, actually most are setup against IK's.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way
I mean sure, eventually everyone will get new models and new rules, he's bound to be right eventually. If he said "in 2019" then it would be news. But 'at some point in an undefined amount of time' is not news, its clickbait without the clicks.
Yes, but it's someone I trust 100%. We'll get new rules soon, I think.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way
I mean sure, eventually everyone will get new models and new rules, he's bound to be right eventually. If he said "in 2019" then it would be news. But 'at some point in an undefined amount of time' is not news, its clickbait without the clicks.
Yes, but it's someone I trust 100%. We'll get new rules soon, I think.
Fair enough then. I would believe that new slaanesh unit rule updates might come along with the Emperors Children codex, that's what I think is the most likely. Followed by Khorne maybe getting some updates with the World Eaters codex release.
I just don't think it'll be a full 'codex daemons' update, just updates for units that are in those CSM legion codices. Still would be good though, especially for slaanesh.
Regardless of if you provide good unit analysis or leaks, being a dink about stuff is still being a dink.
But on the note of Wrath vs Rapture, my money is on new fiends, flesh hounds, and heralds. I dont expect wide overhauls, at least not for Khorne. The Khorne models by most standards dont look that bad for their age, but the flesh hounds and heralds are the odd ones out in how poorly they translated. Being failcast doesnt help.
Salt donkey wrote: It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.
Yeah, they still look completely viable, certainly not pushed mine down the to-do list, exploiting FLY on the charge seemed a bit of a tall order for nine monster bases anyway
vaklor4 wrote: Regardless of if you provide good unit analysis or leaks, being a dink about stuff is still being a dink.
But on the note of Wrath vs Rapture, my money is on new fiends, flesh hounds, and heralds. I dont expect wide overhauls, at least not for Khorne. The Khorne models by most standards dont look that bad for their age, but the flesh hounds and heralds are the odd ones out in how poorly they translated. Being failcast doesnt help.
Keeper of secrets is probably on the cards and I can see a heavy suport unit maybe as slaanesh lack that atm a little. A new codex would make sense otherwise you get a free pdf with possibly 4-5 new units in.
Part of me does question why the daemons loci rules/relics etc. Weren't included in death guard or thousand sons though.
Salt donkey wrote: It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.
"they are still good, drop them in AiP and buff them, they can single hand kill an IK with virulent blessing on them, pity they have ac 4+ an ap0 so if you are bit unlucky with die rolls or opponent save above average they deliver too few damage for 300+ points unit, btw they have a massive board control and not that easy to dislodge, im always undecided between them and letters, but hit on 2 and ap-3 usually makes the difference, so i go with 30 letters last but not least a full infantry list makes all your opponent antitank worthless, actually most are setup against IK's.
"
I certainly agree with most of what you are saying. Blood-letters are much better at killing then drones, so if you strongly need that element for your list then blood-letters are a better choice than drones. So in the case of an all hordes list I do agree blood letters should be picked over drones. That being said I'm not too much of a fan of the all hordes army. It's great against many lists true, but gets completely crushed by some others. Consider Sean Naydon's GT winning list.
Harlequin Outrider – Masque of Dreaming Shadow – 1 CP – 682 pts
Troupe Master – Power Sword, Fusion Pistol – 83 pts Warlord (A Foot in the Future)
A chaos daemon horde has no chance against this list. The wyches, bikes, and avatar will block the daemon assault elements and the lists shooting will remove larges swaths of lesser daemons. While only one example, you should expect to face something like this at every large GT. To that end I think the most competitive way to run daemons is with a mixture of drones, characters, horroers, blood-letters, and nurglings. Truthfully though, chaos daemons will be at their best while allied to a CSM faction. Sorry for the tangent, but i wanted to give the full reason for why I always take plague drones, despite them conflicting with demons horde identity
u might be right, btw overall letters are better , then if i would face a list like that i doubt who pilot it will be skilled like Sean is so i might have a chance anyway. Pretty impossible make a demon list strong against anything.
vaklor4 wrote: Regardless of if you provide good unit analysis or leaks, being a dink about stuff is still being a dink.
But on the note of Wrath vs Rapture, my money is on new fiends, flesh hounds, and heralds. I dont expect wide overhauls, at least not for Khorne. The Khorne models by most standards dont look that bad for their age, but the flesh hounds and heralds are the odd ones out in how poorly they translated. Being failcast doesnt help.
Keeper of secrets is probably on the cards and I can see a heavy suport unit maybe as slaanesh lack that atm a little. A new codex would make sense otherwise you get a free pdf with possibly 4-5 new units in.
Part of me does question why the daemons loci rules/relics etc. Weren't included in death guard or thousand sons though.
They weren't included partially because they were simply there for summoning purposes imo. The datasheets were just to fill up space, and since they still think (for some reason) that summoning is actually used, they give you the daemon datasheets for quick and easy reference.
blackmage wrote: u might be right, btw overall letters are better , then if i would face a list like that i doubt who pilot it will be skilled like Sean is so i might have a chance anyway. Pretty impossible make a demon list strong against anything.
True. I doubt many lists will be able to handle Sean's easily, At least we ignore the haywire part of the bikes (unless you like soul-grinders).I guess i just disagree that letters are objectively better. They are better at killing stuff sure, but its pretty clear which unit is more durable, especially against lists like Sean's which have a lot of S4 shooting. So my overall point is the two units serve different functions. The drones primarily control the board, whereas the blood letters kill things. Both can do the other units primary job, but are less effective at it. I just think drones are more effective at killing than letters are at surviving/holding the board, so I slightly prefer them.The exception for this is in an all hordes list, where the drones will attract all the multi damage weapons that would normally be ineffective. So my conclusion is that both units do different things, but drones are slightly better at their role than letters are at theirs..
of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.
The problem with plague drones is that they have worse durability than plaguebearers(they also often do less damage as they fly forward and scrivener can't keep up) and do less damage than bloodletters. They aren't focused, they don't really fill a role. Also, when you have them it gives your opponent something to shoot anti-tank at, which is not what you want - if you can lose 7 pts to an anti tank shot instead of 34, you do it.
The FLY change basically makes them only attack the screen, which they're OK against, but if the terrain is ruin heavy(which most tables are) it gets really annoying to move big drone units.
blackmage wrote: of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.
Yeah I saw your list posted elsewhere, and I do think letters are better for that list. Full disclosure I'm currently running mine in a way different type of list
It’s a big bummer that deathguard and daemon miasma work on different things. The plan with this list is to run 3 blocks of tough things at my opponents. I run the flies with the Nurgle Deomon prince, typhus with blightlords, and the tanks with the poxbringer and warlord. I expect to lose 1 or 2 of these bricks, but not all three.
So as you can see my list kind of does the opposite of your list, making anti infantry guns less good.
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rvd1ofakind wrote: The problem with plague drones is that they have worse durability than plaguebearers(they also often do less damage as they fly forward and scrivener can't keep up) and do less damage than bloodletters. They aren't focused, they don't really fill a role. Also, when you have them it gives your opponent something to shoot anti-tank at, which is not what you want - if you can lose 7 pts to an anti tank shot instead of 34, you do it.
The FLY change basically makes them only attack the screen, which they're OK against, but if the terrain is ruin heavy(which most tables are) it gets really annoying to move big drone units.
I'll agree with somewhat annoying to move, I think you are being somewhat disingenuous when you say that they don't fit a role. They clearly do, a fast hard, to kill, board controller. Sure plauge bearers can be a lot harder to remove (although remember that plague bearers take a lot of damage from mass S4 and S5 attacks, and have more problems with moral then drones.) but they are also a heck of lot slower. There is a large difference between 7 inches of walking movement and 10 inches of fly movement. The 7 inches also assumes you will have a scrivener nearby, not always a guarantee later in the game.I'm still confused as to why blood letters keep getting compared to drones. Is everyone running pure horde daemons? There's got to be more lists than just that.
I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.
Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.
I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.
Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.
I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.
2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.
I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.
Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.
I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.
2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.
I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.
Try hammer and anvil. You can be 36''+ away from someone, so no 22+3d6 won't make it. Your opponent has no reason to deploy on the front line to give you free charges unless he's also running a melee army.
Bloodletters are actually OK at surviving since if they can be shot on my opponent's turn - I did something very very wrong. Bloodletters are IMO better at repositioning themselves after charge because they go 6+2d6+1 charge, they can go through ruins in fight phase and they have small bases so they can fit through gaps. The minor shooting is honesstly irrelevant. I don't want anything to attract and absorb any firepower turn 1 that aren't Plaguebearers.
Fast FLY unit durability doesn't matter nearly as much. They can easily hop arround between ruins (with LoS blocking first floor) and be immune to fire that way (See ynnari shining spears). And plague drones, unless you're running them MSU do not have maneuverability. They cover so much board space that you can't hide them and you can't sniper characters with them.
To explain the lack of maneuverability - plague drones allow your opponent to make a giant circle around his characters because your 7-9 plague drones won't be able to fit inside without being within -1 of the enemy or without being outside unit coherency. Small bases, like shining spears limit your opponent's movement. They have to very carefully surround their characters.
PS: I don't think plague drones are bad btw. They're fine.
Salt donkey wrote: It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.
I can't agree enough. I've got 21 plague drones, and every time I've plopped them down, I've won by turn 3. I've faced several lists, from smash captain spam to knights and dark eldar. Plague drones are tough, fast, and you cannot hide. The only downside is lack of ap, but all you need is one of those 5dmg attacks to go through and you have done well.
As for the new models and rules, I can see Flesh hounds, Furies, Fiends and KoS getting some new models. New rules will come with chapter approved no doubt. A re-work to summoning would be wonderful. Right now its too high risk for too low reward.
To weigh in on ignores, I ignore several users, many people on dakka just don't contribute to conversations in a manner that isn't argumentative. There is, and never will be, a perfect list, as we have personal experiences, different metas, and different playstyles. Statistically a unit may be the best, but that doesn't make it the best for my area and my style. So the people who stir up gak and put others down for their opinions get ignored.
Also, Bloodletters and other lesser daemons got upgraded to ship with 32mm bases. No more 25mm if you buy new ones. I also just noticed that someone will come up with the worst possible scenario to prove their point that a unit isn't great, but assume the best cases for the units they like.
blackmage wrote: of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.
I’ve probably just missed it, but what is your PB/BL infantry list? I’ve got most of the models to run something like that so it would be good to get a look. Cheers.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.
Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.
I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.
2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.
I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.
Try hammer and anvil. You can be 36''+ away from someone, so no 22+3d6 won't make it. Your opponent has no reason to deploy on the front line to give you free charges unless he's also running a melee army.
Bloodletters are actually OK at surviving since if they can be shot on my opponent's turn - I did something very very wrong. Bloodletters are IMO better at repositioning themselves after charge because they go 6+2d6+1 charge, they can go through ruins in fight phase and they have small bases so they can fit through gaps. The minor shooting is honesstly irrelevant. I don't want anything to attract and absorb any firepower turn 1 that aren't Plaguebearers.
Fast FLY unit durability doesn't matter nearly as much. They can easily hop arround between ruins (with LoS blocking first floor) and be immune to fire that way (See ynnari shining spears). And plague drones, unless you're running them MSU do not have maneuverability. They cover so much board space that you can't hide them and you can't sniper characters with them.
To explain the lack of maneuverability - plague drones allow your opponent to make a giant circle around his characters because your 7-9 plague drones won't be able to fit inside without being within -1 of the enemy or without being outside unit coherency. Small bases, like shining spears limit your opponent's movement. They have to very carefully surround their characters.
PS: I don't think plague drones are bad btw. They're fine.
Well I mean... I'm not sure it's possible for someone to put their entire army 36" away, wouldn't they have to fit their whole gunline (and they'd have to be playing a totally static gunline, so Mars Admech or Girlyman) into the very corner of their deployment area. Which would pretty much mean their whole army would be maybe 2 Dunecrawlers + Cawl.
Realistically, at least some of their army will be ~24-30 inches away, and so it would be turn 2 charges pretty much every time.
Bloodletters would of course still be a little better if you pay to deepstrike them, as they'd be safe turn 1 and then have an almost guaranteed turn 2 charge with blood banner. But this costs 2 CP to pull off, which certainly adds to their cost, and if they do fail their charge (or when the opponent falls back next turn) they'll be deleted from the board by the gunline (as they'd only be able to charge chaff from deepstrike anyway more than likely, unless you've removed the chaff by then but that will be more likely a turn 3 charge making them slower).
Course this is a stupid argument you're making in general, because they're totally different units with totally different roles and strengths. I'm not sure why you wouldn't run them both.
blackmage wrote: of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.
I’ve probably just missed it, but what is your PB/BL infantry list? I’ve got most of the models to run something like that so it would be good to get a look. Cheers.
18 cp at start a whole Korne detachment to get charge re roll and tons of resilient bodies for board control, crimson crown+warlord trait is huge, hit on 2+ re rolling 1's on charge and generate extra attacks on 6's, have the herald warlord is bit risky cause he is a glasscannon, sometimes i make Nurgle Dp or spoilpox warlord, that's safer.
tyr 2 times 20-0
orks 20-0
tau 18-2
necron 2 times 18-2
mixed Sm 18-2 16-4 (very unlucky game) 20-0
De 20-0
Am 16-4 and 12-8
chaos with 200+ cultists lost 8-12
this is match i remember
lately im playing 2x28 letters with icon and instrument and 1x10 letters i can get some loss in overwatch and still have 2 attacks.
Question: do you know about surrounding the enemy and not letting them fall back? Because when you say "when opponent falls back", he can only fall back if every units I can charge has FLY or there is only 1 unit within 3D6+1+6 range. Every other time I will surround something. This is what people playing against me learn the hard way. A gunline can never win against this if they have no melee units (which I kill first if I can so they can't defend).
I've already said why I don't use them. I use every non-deamonette daemon troop + HQs+tsons psykers. That's it. My opponent's anti-tank is useless against me (other than making plaguebearer FNP harder) and if he only brings anti-horde he loses to knight lists and doesn't even win against me most of the time. Which is why I've only lost 1 tournament game in 8th ed and it was in a random pairing 500pts doubles maelstrom tournament where 22letters and 2 skullreaver activations failed to kill an injured flyrant -.- ). I'm ofc not saying I'm the best player on the planet - just big fish small pond.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Question: do you know about surrounding the enemy and not letting them fall back? Because when you say "when opponent falls back", he can only fall back if every units I can charge has FLY or there is only 1 unit within 3D6+1+6 range. Every other time I will surround something. This is what people playing against me learn the hard way. A gunline can never win against this if they have no melee units (which I kill first if I can so they can't defend).
I've already said why I don't use them. I use every non-deamonette daemon troop + HQs+tsons psykers. That's it. My opponent's anti-tank is useless against me (other than making plaguebearer FNP harder) and if he only brings anti-horde he loses to knight lists and doesn't even win against me most of the time. Which is why I've only lost 1 tournament game in 8th ed and it was in a random pairing 500pts doubles maelstrom tournament where 22letters and 2 skullreaver activations failed to kill an injured flyrant -.- ). I'm ofc not saying I'm the best player on the planet - just big fish small pond.
Oh cool, so you must be on the winners tables on all the recent tournaments, surprised you're not more famous on here. Definitely surprised you're not a whole lot more humble and helpful, rather than being brash and braggardly.
I mean, someone who has only ever lost 1 game in any major tournament in the last 12 months is pretty huge. Record breaking even. I'll get Guinness on the phone.
Did you miss the last sentence? 40k isn't big here in the competitive sense. We've only had 5 RTTs in 8th ed(1000,750x2,1500,1000,500x2 points). I have no illusions of grandeur. If a top player like Nick Nanavati says something like "Plague Drones are the best daemon unit" or a Major tournament is won with a list that has a lot of Plague Drones - I'll definitelly change my mind.
I can re-tell all my games if you want.
3-0 the weekend after daemon codex with pinks, letters and nurglings (1000 pts): hard game against nids, easy as fk game against anti-tank admech(I deepstrike proofed the entire board so his elysians coudn't land by turn 2), moderate game against ynnari where a banner proc helped me surround
3-0 with orks. Got randomly paired with my practice partner (nids). Crushed every game. (first 2 games were against cheating TAU who used the seismic something artifact globally every turn instead of within 12'' and tried to cheat in multiple other ways and a cheating IG who kept trying to use infantry only stratagems on vehicles and vehicle only stratagems on infantry... Third game was Lord of Skulls and noise marines where we ignored the lord of skulls and killed everything else)
2-0-1 (1 draw) with daemons. The draw was against a CSM+daemons list(he won the tourny as he got paired against someone who lost his game and I got paired against eldar who won). Barelly won against Eldar due him hiting the time limit(he quit tournaments after this loss because he felt time limits are unfair). Then crushed Ynnari.
<at this point I found out a LOT of fight/charge phase tactics>
3-0 with my Nurgle+Tsons. 4 people tournament, but they actually had good lists. Not even close. Game results were: 37-4(alpha legion, who deepstruck his obliterators too far away), 39-5(knights who I killed with smite equivalents) and a concede(necrons who lost his 2 games) before even playing.
2-1 with a joke list in a casual tournament(30 letters, skullreaver DP, 7 furies) where I got a very casual player(he had valkyrie carrying 10 vanilla IG infantry and forgot to use orders and didn't even know what move move move was) as a random partner and failed to kill a 10 wound flyrant with 22 letters(21 1s on hit, he also made 900% of his 4+ and 2 skullreaver DP activations(wound roll: 1 1 1 1 1 2 3...)
BTW, Plague Drones have been in ONE top documented 20+ people tournament list from May 18 to Aug 18:
https://i.imgur.com/WxwxcA2.png They're not that great dude...
rvd1ofakind wrote: I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.
Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.
I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.
2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.
I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.
Try hammer and anvil. You can be 36''+ away from someone, so no 22+3d6 won't make it. Your opponent has no reason to deploy on the front line to give you free charges unless he's also running a melee army.
Bloodletters are actually OK at surviving since if they can be shot on my opponent's turn - I did something very very wrong. Bloodletters are IMO better at repositioning themselves after charge because they go 6+2d6+1 charge, they can go through ruins in fight phase and they have small bases so they can fit through gaps. The minor shooting is honesstly irrelevant. I don't want anything to attract and absorb any firepower turn 1 that aren't Plaguebearers.
Fast FLY unit durability doesn't matter nearly as much. They can easily hop arround between ruins (with LoS blocking first floor) and be immune to fire that way (See ynnari shining spears). And plague drones, unless you're running them MSU do not have maneuverability. They cover so much board space that you can't hide them and you can't sniper characters with them.
To explain the lack of maneuverability - plague drones allow your opponent to make a giant circle around his characters because your 7-9 plague drones won't be able to fit inside without being within -1 of the enemy or without being outside unit coherency. Small bases, like shining spears limit your opponent's movement. They have to very carefully surround their characters.
PS: I don't think plague drones are bad btw. They're fine.
Well I mean... I'm not sure it's possible for someone to put their entire army 36" away, wouldn't they have to fit their whole gunline (and they'd have to be playing a totally static gunline, so Mars Admech or Girlyman) into the very corner of their deployment area. Which would pretty much mean their whole army would be maybe 2 Dunecrawlers + Cawl.
Realistically, at least some of their army will be ~24-30 inches away, and so it would be turn 2 charges pretty much every time.
Bloodletters would of course still be a little better if you pay to deepstrike them, as they'd be safe turn 1 and then have an almost guaranteed turn 2 charge with blood banner. But this costs 2 CP to pull off, which certainly adds to their cost, and if they do fail their charge (or when the opponent falls back next turn) they'll be deleted from the board by the gunline (as they'd only be able to charge chaff from deepstrike anyway more than likely, unless you've removed the chaff by then but that will be more likely a turn 3 charge making them slower).
Course this is a stupid argument you're making in general, because they're totally different units with totally different roles and strengths. I'm not sure why you wouldn't run them both.
Seconding all this.That being said I think he has proven that no logical argument is going to convince him that drones are a competitive choice. If I had to guess he has probably invested a lot of time and money on Plague bearers and Bloodletters in order to make a competitive daemon list. He hasn't ,however, likely invested much (or anything) into drones. So when I said Drones are the best unit in the codex, I was essentially challenging the competitiveness of his investments. People love anchoring themselves to their previous investments (as it's not too appealing to admit you might have been even partially wrong, nor is it fun to fork over more time and $$$). Therefore rather than admit he is/was wrong to discount drones, he has gone to increasingly extreme lengths to justify his position.
Case in point the 36 inch hammer and anvil point. You addressed how hard that would be to accomplish this in the first place, but when examine this idea further it gets even more ridiculous.
1) His plan means that the gunline army will be giving up the whole board to the daemons player. Simply put if my opponent's army only exist in a 12' area, that means they wont have any units in the rest of 60 inches of the table until after turn 2. Not normally a recipe for success in this game.
2) Very few armies care only about shooting. Yes Tau exists, but the majority of armies do damage in ways outside of shooting.
3) Shooting has range as well. A lot of shorter range guns won't be shooting at anything for a while being 36' from their opponents deployment zone.
4) This scenario happens around 1/6 games.
Many of these points by themselves completely ruin his argument, so why did I bother to point them all out? To illustrate my reasoning for why I assume he has a vested interest in disliking drones. To finish this let me review the order of events.
He made the point that drones have negative of having to take 2-3 turns of shooting before reaching combat.
I made counterpoint that this is likely incorrect due to the drones large amount of movement. Therefore they should expect 1-2 turns of shooting.
Now a completely unbiased thinker would cede the point.here. They might make the case that the 1-2 turns is still enough to make a large difference (I'd likely disagree with this, but there is some merit to that argument). Instead he doubled down on his previous statement by coming up with hammer and anvil example. Once people start using these types of arguments (ones which contain a ton of large holes in them), it's clear to me they have no interest in changing their mind.
I love how that "ruins my argument". 1-2 turns of getting shot at is not that different than 2-3 turns(it's still at least 2 turns 50% of the time instead of 0 turns 100% of the time for letters). And that was not my main reason of not taking them. I'm not taking them because I only want to give plaguebearers as targets while pinks and letters wait in deepstrike. Also they don't fill a role for me
And I've said 2-3 turns because that's how my 4 games went where I've tried them. Most of my opponents run gunlines(admech, gunline alpha legion)
Ill just say that in my experience, gunlines have never had much success against my army of WE and Khorne Daemons. I dont just spam letters mind, in fact Zerker buses are my bread and butter. Ive faced Tau, admech, knights, IG, heck even Sisters of Battle. I think the only three things ive never faced so fsr are Genestealer cult, and Harlequinns.
Trust when I say that 1-2 turns of shooting mean absolute jack diddly if you bring the right tactics.
Zerkers are pretty good.
However when I make a tournament list, I make it as noninterrative as possible: the opponent can only shoot -2 T4 4++ plaguebearers for 2 turns so he can't get kill 1 and I get kill 1 and kill more with smite equivalent spam.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I love how that "ruins my argument". 1-2 turns of getting shot at is not that different than 2-3 turns(it's still at least 2 turns 50% of the time instead of 0 turns 100% of the time for letters). And that was not my main reason of not taking them. I'm not taking them because I only want to give plaguebearers as targets while pinks and letters wait in deepstrike.
And I've said 2-3 turns because that's how my 4 games went where I've tried them. Most of my opponents run gunlines(admech, gunline alpha legion)
Ok so say this rather than come up with that ridiculous hammer and anvil scenario. I'd say your best coast pairings results are the best argument against them, but I have a few counterpoints.
1) Plague drones aren't that popular. Likely due to price (GW charges 180$ for 9, far too expensive for most).
2) Many pure Daemon players are running pure horde lists, which plague drones are bad in.
3) Not sure If I totally trust your data. I can name a big event right off the bat (bug eater) that was won with plague drones. Additionally this data doesn't include any British tournaments, where I hear drones are preforming quite well in.
Apparently Blightlords are also bad, but they were also used to win a major tournament by Hooson . That win really, REALLY upset the meta tournament community, so much that people said the player was just some chump who got lucky. He has a history of taking bad units and winning tournaments. He was the one who showed that PBC are good units, and now they are hailed as one of the best units in the book.
Plague drones are dumb expensive, and only good when they reach that +$100 price point. Like Salt Donkey said, that is just too pricey, but they are still sweet models, and very useful in games.
You make tournament lists according to your meta. As you said, 40k is not huge where you are, so tournaments are not going to have the high end meta. Yet you talk like you are an authority on national level GTs, Your attitude towards other player's is why you are on ignore lists. What you do isn't what works for everyone, and your experiences are not universal. Your attitude has brought this thread completely off the rails, as you seem to ignore the fact that other players have different experiences.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I love how that "ruins my argument". 1-2 turns of getting shot at is not that different than 2-3 turns(it's still at least 2 turns 50% of the time instead of 0 turns 100% of the time for letters). And that was not my main reason of not taking them. I'm not taking them because I only want to give plaguebearers as targets while pinks and letters wait in deepstrike. Also they don't fill a role for me
And I've said 2-3 turns because that's how my 4 games went where I've tried them. Most of my opponents run gunlines(admech, gunline alpha legion)
To add to my previous point, I realise that a bloodletter bomb would actually cost 3CP and not 2CP, which is even more of a cost. Worth it, perhaps, but CP are not that easy to come by for a lot of lists.
Also, your maths are wrong again. Plague Drones won't take 2 turns of fire "at least" before a charge, in most games it'll be 2 turns of fire "at most". It might be a pedantic correction, but it makes a lot of difference.
So, generally speaking, "at most", Plague Drones would take 2 turns of fire 50% of the time (against gunline armies), and 1 turn of fire against armies with a melee component.
Bloodletters also do NOT have a 100% chance of taking 0 rounds of fire. Even with deepstriking, spending their 3CP, they will only make their charges 74% of the time. If you spend more points on a Herald, and a pure khorne detachment for the locus (which all adds to their cost, which plague drones do not require), then it goes up to around 90%. It's pretty damn good odds, but 90% is not 100%. Sometimes you'll miss the charge, and your 'letters will die and do nothing that game.
While plague drones are much more likely to survive a turn or two of shooting, and still put out their damage. Plus you get 3CP and around what... ~100-200 extra points to spend on other things, depending on how you built out your khorne detachment / heralds.
Still not arguing that bloodletters are bad, they're amazing at what they do, but that doesn't make plague drones bad. Once again, different roles entirely, its comparing apples to iphones. But you seem determined, and I wasn't going to let the bad maths and hyperbole stand. Someone impressionable might read it and think bloodletters have a 100% chance to make charges!
So trying to get back onto a healthy, friendly topic here, is the Soul Grinder worth even bothering with atm? Or is the Defiler still leagues more useful? To be clear, im either running this as a tzeentch or khorne model.
Blightlords were tried after BAO and never succeeded again. They actually got turned into a joke. They are not good. Don got lucky with his matchups and he's a great general to boost.
And at least 2 turns of shooting 50% of the time is accurate because if you think 1-2 before charges it is 2 turns 50% of the time, however sometimes it is 2-3 turns, so it is at least 2 turns of shooting.
And I always take skullreaver DP because that artefact is the best we have. So letters will have the reroll.
And why are you all stuck on this part of the argument? It was a list of reasons to not take plague drones and the MOST IMPORTANT was to make my opponent have only ONE target - the -2 to hit 4++ plaguebearers. That makes my opponent's anti-tank very inefficient and does not get them a kill for 1-3 turns which gives me a big VP advantage.
As long as this part doesn't change I see no reason to take anything with more than 1 wound that's not a character or can't hide(nurglings)
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vaklor4 wrote: So trying to get back onto a healthy, friendly topic here, is the Soul Grinder worth even bothering with atm? Or is the Defiler still leagues more useful? To be clear, im either running this as a tzeentch or khorne model.
Soul Grinder is terrible. Defiler is just bad so he's better.
Does it seem like I call 80% of the units in our codex terrible? Only because it's true and I hate it.
We have AMAZING troops: best screen in the game, one of the best melee units in chaos, one of the best anti-horde units in chaos, the only scouts in chaos, the cheapest troop in chaos - and everything else(Except HQs that buff those troops) is complete TRASH. Top players echo my sentiment - they call the CD codex one of the worst codexes in the game not because you can't win competitive games with it, but because only troops+HQ support are good in it (And maybe plague drones. I don't use them because of my "you can't interract with me" strat, but they are definitelly in between troops and everything else in the codex).
I wish I had tyranids instead :(
But all 3 of my other armies are low tier so I'm forced to play CD, who are the most boring of the 4 but are by far more competitive. And no I don't play suboptimal factions or units in tournaments unless they are joke tournaments. I hope Ork codex changes this.
im playing codex demons since release and sadly i must agree, troops and HQ are the only good units in codex the rest is subpar or totally inefficient, you can play things like drones or flamers screamers but they aren't so great,of course im talking about competitve play, in casual you can play lot more things.
I always respect someone who calls most units bad rather than someone who thinks every unit has a place.
It's a big sign that the person knows what they're talking about.
Take the best player in the world Nick Nanavati for example:
"70% of the marine codex simply being overcosted"
He even called the Bloodletter bomb bad. I'll try to find out why today or tomorrow.
The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.
vaklor4 wrote: The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.
It's nowehere near as bad as other units Chaos Daemons have or else it wouldn't be the 10th most successful Chaos unit (5th Chaos Daemon unit bellow Nurglings, plaguebearers, poxbringer and tz herald) data wise.
But the letter squad can only be dealt with melee. They're basically immortal to shooting. I've never had my bloodletters shot (Apart from overwatch) since I've learned to surround.
vaklor4 wrote: So trying to get back onto a healthy, friendly topic here, is the Soul Grinder worth even bothering with atm? Or is the Defiler still leagues more useful? To be clear, im either running this as a tzeentch or khorne model.
On paper you can get some interesting stuff. Make it Khorne and give it a claw and you have 12 attacks on the charge at S8 -2 D3, buuut, you are WS4, and are forced to take a Heavy weapon. Now I know this is unfair comparison, but as a DG/Daemon player, I make it all the time.
Bloat drone has 9 S8 attacks at -2, 2DMG and is also WS4 and T7. It has less wounds, but is cheaper, and can fly. Compared to say, a soul grinder of nurgle, which has 10 attacks with the claw, the drone wins hands down. If you want to spam T7 to try to pull fire from your greater daemons, they might have a little use. I think that being forced to take Phlegm bombardment is the big problem with soul grinders. Make it optional so we can drop the points a bit, maybe give us back the flamer option, or even the dumb gaze lol.
Defilers are, as you said it, just plain better. They don't have to split their attacks to use the iron claw claw and scourge, and the scourge is pretty dang nice, nicer than the warp claw. Soul grinders are still grossly overpriced, which is a bummer because the models are so insanely cool.
vaklor4 wrote: The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.
if that couple of units are like IK (cause 30 letters can annihilate it) im pretty happy to spend 200pts, i dont think the reason is just that, fact is perhaps, demons lack a serious shooting phase and against a skilled player letters usually risk to charge some screens and nothing more, btw i m using them and never regretted play them, they offer some forward board control, they hit very hard (they can potentially delete every unit they charge), they cant be ignored and in large numbers they are a nightmare for some lists lacking proper screening unit, my average tournament setup is a whole Korne battalion with herald with crown skullreaver Dp and 28+28+10 letters, it takes me 7 cp's up to 18, to AiP them, but 60 letters can wreak havocs anytime, i play only infantry and character below 10 wounds so heavy weapons aren't a issue for me.
Oh believe me bloodletter bomb IS good, im just trying to see his logic.
What I usually do is delay a letter bomb till t3, after ive split an army wide open with the can openner that is 3 Khorne Party Buses (patent pending) and 2 DPs. By then, the letters can easy get to what they want to.
vaklor4 wrote: The Bloodletter bomb is "bad" because its a one turn strategy most of the time. You spend roughly a quarter to a third of your CP and 200ish points to annihilate a couple units, but then the letter squad is basically wet tissue in the middle of the board.
It's nowehere near as bad as other units Chaos Daemons have or else it wouldn't be the 10th most successful Chaos unit (5th Chaos Daemon unit bellow Nurglings, plaguebearers, poxbringer and tz herald) data wise.
But the letter squad can only be dealt with melee. They're basically immortal to shooting. I've never had my bloodletters shot (Apart from overwatch) since I've learned to surround.
Just a question about surrounding. How do you go about surrounding models? My bloodletter squads usually kill enough that they cant surround the models near where they charged. Also my opponemts generally will only have one unit in range at any of my drop down locations. Any advice?
Second this issue. Surrounding is a lot easier said than done, you cant just forgo attacks magically, and more often than not even after pile in, the enemy is either dead or able to escape. You make it sound like this is a 100% always tactic, but its a best case scenario.
And id just like to note that im not saying my letter bombs arent effective. They total knights, ruin primarchs and blitz through gunlines. But the scenario of more than 5-8 of my bloodletters in a unit even surviving is rare. Only time that happens is if theyre ignored, usually because my Lord of Skulls is plowing down the middle of the field.
The big weakness with bloodletter bombs is that they are really pricey. It's hard to run multiple bombs unless you have at least 2 battalions worth of CP.
One thing I'm starting to realize with bloodletters though is that they are still pretty killy without any buffs or while being under the 20-model threshold. With buffs it's typically overkill while without buffs it will still likely decimate whatever it touches. It's pretty much never efficient from the opponent's perspective to be in CC with bloodletters.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I always respect someone who calls most units bad rather than someone who thinks every unit has a place.
It's a big sign that the person knows what they're talking about.
Take the best player in the world Nick Nanavati for example:
"70% of the marine codex simply being overcosted"
He even called the Bloodletter bomb bad. I'll try to find out why today or tomorrow.
Ok so this where I fundamentally disagree with you. From my understanding of the game both statements “most units are bad” and “every unit has a place,” are incorrect to a degree. I have explanations for both. As far as “every unit has a place” there is some clear cases that contradict this. Units like space marine centurion devistators add no value to list. This is because their role can be taken by another unit in the codex (dreadnoughts) at a cheaper price, so there’s never a reason to take them. However, I want to point out that centurions are a Corner case. Notice that Nick uses the term “overcosted” not “bad” like you do. They are synonymous terms, but not identical like you are implying. For example, Sean Nayden just won a GP with the avatar of khaine, a clear example of an overcosted unit. The reason Sean was able was for three reasons.
1) the rest of his army used efficient units.
2) he is Sean Nayden
3) The avatar brings something to an elder Amy that no other unit does. His re-roll charge and fearless bubble.
Point 3 is the the big one here. 40k has a large selection of units, most things can do something that is purely unique to themselves. Sean proved that overcosted unit can be in a tournament winning list, provided the player using it can maximize its niche.
Why is this important? Because having a mindset like yours will stunt competive eventually. True you are probably more right than a person who believes “every unit has its place”, but being less wrong is still wrong. It’s no accident that players like Don and Sean can win big tournaments with overcosted units. Because they know a unit can still serve purposes despite not being the most, best, thing ever! As far as Daemons are concerned, yeah they are in bad spot because most units share similar roles, but that doesnt mean ever unit besides troops and characters are completely useless .
barboggo wrote: The big weakness with bloodletter bombs is that they are really pricey. It's hard to run multiple bombs unless you have at least 2 battalions worth of CP.
One thing I'm starting to realize with bloodletters though is that they are still pretty killy without any buffs or while being under the 20-model threshold. With buffs it's typically overkill while without buffs it will still likely decimate whatever it touches. It's pretty much never efficient from the opponent's perspective to be in CC with bloodletters.
i run 3 battalions so i have 18cp's, what some players wont realize is in a whole infantry list which run 160 infantry model+characters, 2-3 bloodletters bombs are expendables, i mean you can kill 40-50 is ok i still have 100+ models on the table, if in the meanwhile my 60-70 letters kill half of your army im in any case im the the winner, they cost just 7pts each, and witha triple battalion you can afford to ds at leasr two whole 30 men units or 3 20 men units.
The letterbomb looks interesting but I’ve only got twenty and I’m just not inclined to get and paint another twenty-five to fund their CP consumption and eat overwatch, then cross my fingers that six months later they don’t join my Lictors in the loft.
We have constrained viable options not only because our non-Troops are so generally subpar, but also because 8ed’s detachments system is absolutely terrible if you want to use a few - or many varied - Daemons (or, for that matter, Imperial agents - my best mate loves her Inquisitor and Vindicare and hardly ever plays any more since soup lists got purged).
Unless you have Furies or Soul Grinders (or don’t care about Loci), the only detachments with any variety are Supreme Command, Nurgle Battalion, Tzeentch Battalion or Vanguard, and Slaanesh Outriders. We need like a Super Patrol Detachment where taking 1-2 of all unit types gets you three or so CP (I’d sooner field three Bloodcrushers as a tax unit and have a nice looking army than take more bloodletters), and we need like a Crusader universal Warlord Trait where everything in your Warlord’s Detachment gets their faction traits, and we need summoning rules that aren’t worse than useless.
Until then, my Daemon tactics will be ‘screen with PBs & Nurglings and have Epidemius soup up my daemon engines’ or ‘have Heralds on Steeds escort Maulerfiends & Defilers & Fiends into first turn charge range then cross my fingers’ or ‘send a Herald on Disc to soup up some Thousand Sons’ or ‘join the Sisters fans on the spectator stands when it’s Kill Team’.
Ugh. Sorry. Nurgle’s gifted me with a fever. Normal ‘hey let’s all be friendly and positive!!!’ attitude will restore when Isha’s sent me some cheat codes
lindsay40k wrote: The letterbomb looks interesting but I’ve only got twenty and I’m just not inclined to get and paint another twenty-five to fund their CP consumption and eat overwatch, then cross my fingers that six months later they don’t join my Lictors in the loft.
We have constrained viable options not only because our non-Troops are so generally subpar, but also because 8ed’s detachments system is absolutely terrible if you want to use a few - or many varied - Daemons (or, for that matter, Imperial agents - my best mate loves her Inquisitor and Vindicare and hardly ever plays any more since soup lists got purged).
Unless you have Furies or Soul Grinders (or don’t care about Loci), the only detachments with any variety are Supreme Command, Nurgle Battalion, Tzeentch Battalion or Vanguard, and Slaanesh Outriders. We need like a Super Patrol Detachment where taking 1-2 of all unit types gets you three or so CP (I’d sooner field three Bloodcrushers as a tax unit and have a nice looking army than take more bloodletters), and we need like a Crusader universal Warlord Trait where everything in your Warlord’s Detachment gets their faction traits, and we need summoning rules that aren’t worse than useless.
Until then, my Daemon tactics will be ‘screen with PBs & Nurglings and have Epidemius soup up my daemon engines’ or ‘have Heralds on Steeds escort Maulerfiends & Defilers & Fiends into first turn charge range then cross my fingers’ or ‘send a Herald on Disc to soup up some Thousand Sons’ or ‘join the Sisters fans on the spectator stands when it’s Kill Team’.
Ugh. Sorry. Nurgle’s gifted me with a fever. Normal ‘hey let’s all be friendly and positive!!!’ attitude will restore when Isha’s sent me some cheat codes
To be fair about the Loci, I very rarely even care about it. The Tzeentch one is the worst, and the Khorne one is only REALLY needed on Bloodthirsters and daemon princes, otherwise your letters are already charging 3d6 as is. I've ran a mixed detachment of Tzeentch and Khorne (2 letter bombs and a pink bomb with a Khorne D-prince and Tz-Herald) And it worked fantastic.
lindsay40k wrote: The letterbomb looks interesting but I’ve only got twenty and I’m just not inclined to get and paint another twenty-five to fund their CP consumption and eat overwatch, then cross my fingers that six months later they don’t join my Lictors in the loft.
We have constrained viable options not only because our non-Troops are so generally subpar, but also because 8ed’s detachments system is absolutely terrible if you want to use a few - or many varied - Daemons (or, for that matter, Imperial agents - my best mate loves her Inquisitor and Vindicare and hardly ever plays any more since soup lists got purged).
Unless you have Furies or Soul Grinders (or don’t care about Loci), the only detachments with any variety are Supreme Command, Nurgle Battalion, Tzeentch Battalion or Vanguard, and Slaanesh Outriders. We need like a Super Patrol Detachment where taking 1-2 of all unit types gets you three or so CP (I’d sooner field three Bloodcrushers as a tax unit and have a nice looking army than take more bloodletters), and we need like a Crusader universal Warlord Trait where everything in your Warlord’s Detachment gets their faction traits, and we need summoning rules that aren’t worse than useless.
Until then, my Daemon tactics will be ‘screen with PBs & Nurglings and have Epidemius soup up my daemon engines’ or ‘have Heralds on Steeds escort Maulerfiends & Defilers & Fiends into first turn charge range then cross my fingers’ or ‘send a Herald on Disc to soup up some Thousand Sons’ or ‘join the Sisters fans on the spectator stands when it’s Kill Team’.
Ugh. Sorry. Nurgle’s gifted me with a fever. Normal ‘hey let’s all be friendly and positive!!!’ attitude will restore when Isha’s sent me some cheat codes
To be fair about the Loci, I very rarely even care about it. The Tzeentch one is the worst, and the Khorne one is only REALLY needed on Bloodthirsters and daemon princes, otherwise your letters are already charging 3d6 as is. I've ran a mixed detachment of Tzeentch and Khorne (2 letter bombs and a pink bomb with a Khorne D-prince and Tz-Herald) And it worked fantastic.
i can grant you loci is needed to letters too, 3d6 sometimes can reserve bad surprises, you have to be sure your letters will charge, or you invested 235pts in nothing, happens you roll 5-6 with 3 dice, i can grant you, that's why many lists rely on letters play a full korne detachment with herald
Yep I don't think I will ever run bloodletters without instrument + icon + banner of blood. Today a played a 1k point game against a new player, I show up and he has two flyrants and 6 hive guard in a 1k list. I was thinking to myself "good thing I brought daemons".
Deep struck 2x20 bloodletters and opponent concedes end of T3 after the Khorne DP/LoC each kill a flyrant and the letters wipe out the gants. I did lose a whole unit of 20 bloodletters on his turn though after rolling a 6 on my morale test. It's always so embarrassing watching my little Khorne daemons running away in fear.
Here are the probabilities for successfully charging bloodletters with various wargear.
Bloodletter Deep Strike and Charge Probabilities
27.78% with nothing
41.67% with Instrument of Chaos
47.84% with Locus of Rage
65.97% with Instrument of Chaos, Locus of Rage
74.07% with Banner of Blood
83.8% with Banner of Blood, Instrument of Chaos
93.24% with Banner of Blood, Locus of Rage
97.37% with Banner of Blood, Instrument of Chaos, Locus of Rage
The loci are great for lists that can run them but it's certainly not a requirement. I've been having pretty decent success lately ignoring loci altogether and making up for it with more flexible battalions. Daemons having access to cheap battalions and good troop choices is one way to help compensate for our meh codex.
barboggo wrote: The big weakness with bloodletter bombs is that they are really pricey. It's hard to run multiple bombs unless you have at least 2 battalions worth of CP.
One thing I'm starting to realize with bloodletters though is that they are still pretty killy without any buffs or while being under the 20-model threshold. With buffs it's typically overkill while without buffs it will still likely decimate whatever it touches. It's pretty much never efficient from the opponent's perspective to be in CC with bloodletters.
i run 3 battalions so i have 18cp's, what some players wont realize is in a whole infantry list which run 160 infantry model+characters, 2-3 bloodletters bombs are expendables, i mean you can kill 40-50 is ok i still have 100+ models on the table, if in the meanwhile my 60-70 letters kill half of your army im in any case im the the winner, they cost just 7pts each, and witha triple battalion you can afford to ds at leasr two whole 30 men units or 3 20 men units.
Do you run 3x30 plaguebearers? Sounds like that's what I need to add to my collection to make pure daemons more viable.
Cool. Have you ever gone against venom spam with that list? Seems like a well-screened gunline or a highly mobile flying gunline are the biggest potential weaknesses of that list at first glance. Curious how it performs against high tier meta lists like DE/aeldari soup or the pre-FAQ Castellan/BA/Loyal 32 list.
i won 20-0 against pure DE (3 ravagers 4 venoms some characters and lot of witches+grots) the game is though but too much wounds on table his veichles are made of paper i can deal with then with anything i have, never faced eldar+de, about castellan list i doubt he can do a lot, his castellan is pretty useless and catachans/slamcaptain hit hard but not hard enough to dislodge 140 infantry models most with FNP and -1 to hit, letters wreak havocs they delete every unit they charge they can die but then pb's are untoched and i flood the board and grab objectives.
I don't know, pure khorne doesnt seem worth it to me. Pure slaanesh allows advance and charge which is very important for making slaanesh useful. I normally run
1 detachment pure slaanesh, 1 detachment khorne / tzeentch mix, 1 detachment either tsons or chaos marines. I am finding chaos marines to have more potential but have yet to figure out how to make it work right.
Also i would love to see the numbers on gaze of fate vs pure khorne for the reroll during an attempt charge with the bloodletters. I really think getting spell access is worth more than getting reroll failed charges.
i dont run a pure korne army, only 1 battalion is korne, the others two are Nurgle,rigth now you must choose between 3 battalions do maximize ds or play less letters and run a Ts supreme command, both lists works fine.
450 minimum of garbage (heavy support), fast attack beside drones, or are weak (furies) or costly (plague toads), you can get cp's playing the double battalion , more point wise.
blackmage wrote: 450 minimum of garbage (heavy support), fast attack beside drones, or are weak (furies) or costly (plague toads), you can get cp's playing the double battalion , more point wise.
Giant Chaos Spawn is very nurgley, and while it is 450 points I wouldn't say it was complete garbage.
Was obviously way way better when they were 75 points each, but then they were also hugely underpriced.
Why do you say "fast attack beside drones", as if drones weren't the obvious and best fast attack choice in the codex anyway? Almost like you're looking for reasons to complain. Just use drones.
Plaguebearers
Nurglings
3x Beasts of Nurgle (elites are probably nurgles weakest point, but luckily they're pretty cheap and units of 1)
Plague Drones
Giant Chaos Spawn
Mix in HQ's to taste, depending on if you want the herald buffs or just Prince Power.
That's a lot of disgustingly resilient to get through, and funnily enough the Giant Spawn is still only power level 5 so you could deepstrike them all for 3CP, or even summon them pretty easily.
Sounds like a fun list, and I don't think you'll get steamrollered at all (depending on how many troops and drones you take, and whether you also have a second detachment of something).
blackmage wrote: i dont run a pure korne army, only 1 battalion is korne, the others two are Nurgle,rigth now you must choose between 3 battalions do maximize ds or play less letters and run a Ts supreme command, both lists works fine.
Yeah these both seem like good options. Triple letters and mass pb seems very hard to deal with for many factions.
Also a no shooting phase pure daemon army that actually threatens other competitive lists is just COOL.
I’m leery of the elites and heavy supports, but troops, HQs, and fast attacks are all solid.
Are you specifically looking for a Nurgle Daemon Brigade? If you don't need it to unlock stratagems for you, simply running a Nurgle Brigade and using CSM/Death Guard units to fill out some of those lacking slots would be much more effective. Heavy Support options for Chaos Daemons are atrocious, but Plagueburst Crawlers would fit and are objectively great units.
Hi all. Can I get some tips on Tzeentch Daemons? I'm interested in playing pure Tzeentch Daemons, but idk how competitive they are or even how many points I should set aside for summons. A good list will also help a ton.
I’ve think you need to ally in something other that just Tzeentch Daemon.
I play Tzeentch and mainly Tzeentch but it was when I added 3x3 Obliterators from CSM I started to win games.
When I start making a list I add.
2x changecaster with flickering flames and gaze of fate.
2x 30 pink horror
2x 10 brimstone horror
This is my to go and I love it. All those attack’s 18” range and buffed up +1 too wound. I did play with a DP with warlordtrait “daemonspark” so reroll 1 to hit and to wound is awesome.
This is a good start and then add what you like but I do think you need allies from Csm or other gods.
Allying in Thousand Sons would be very beneficial. The Thousand Sons Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is just outright superior to the Daemon Prince of Chaos...for no additional cost or reason. So those are an invaluable addition, Ahriman is also extremely common in competitive Chaos builds for being able to cast 3 powers with a +1 to each of them going off. Tzaangors can provide some valuable close combat punch, and are more efficient in their use of command points than Bloodletters, for comparison.
Sokhar wrote: Allying in Thousand Sons would be very beneficial. The Thousand Sons Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is just outright superior to the Daemon Prince of Chaos...for no additional cost or reason. So those are an invaluable addition, Ahriman is also extremely common in competitive Chaos builds for being able to cast 3 powers with a +1 to each of them going off. Tzaangors can provide some valuable close combat punch, and are more efficient in their use of command points than Bloodletters, for comparison.
A 1k sons/tzeentch list can be highly effective, the only issue I have is they're kinda squishy by comparison. I like to have a solid "anvil" unit, generally nurgle, somewhere. But I do agree, Tzangors are kinda like Bloodletters but more CP effecient (Letters I believe do more damage overall, but require DS so they don't get plinked early), and fit into the theme.
I would probably do a 1k sons Battalion, Ahriman, 2 DP's with wings, 2 units of 10 cultists, and 30 Tzangors in a mono-tzeentch style list.
letters erase anything they touch that is out of doubt, then yes Tz attack twice for just 2cp they can have a save 4++ with no need to spend 2cp can get -1 to be hit, but they have no str5-6 and more important they dont have ap -3 and chance to deliver 2 damage apiece, i still prefer letters but of course if we talk about TS detachment they fill a close blodletters role.
Agreed on all counts, Zid. Nurgle definitely holds ground far more effectively than Tzeentch, particularly since the inexcusably dumb nerf to Warp Surge that hurt Pink Horrors. If the previous poster is willing to move off the all-Tzeentch approach for competitive purposes, some Plaguebearers and a Poxbringer would not be remiss. Sticking with the all Tzeentch theme though, your suggested Battalion is my starting place for Thousand Sons allies. I am starting to contemplate a second Tzaangor blob in place of one of the Cultist squads, points permitting. Cycle of Slaughter is just so damn good as a 2 cost stratagem rather than the usual three, and you can keep a 30-man unit in deep strike reserve for only a single CP (unlike Bloodletters two), and you can actually buff the durability of Tzaangors with ease (again, unlike Bloodletters).
I don't have enough Tzaangors (or will to build 30 more of them just yet) to test it out, but I think having one unit start on the table to teleport with Dark Matter Crystal turn 1, and then a second in Webway Infiltration to hold off until the first unit gets chewed up, would probably work really well. They get slingshot forward/deep struck, get buffed by Glamour of Tzeentch/Weaver of Fates, and then Cycle of Slaughter as much as possible until they are killed. Then drop in a second unit and do it again.
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blackmage wrote: letters erase anything they touch that is out of doubt, then yes Tz attack twice for just 2cp they can have a save 4++ with no need to spend 2cp can get -1 to be hit, but they have no str5-6 and more important they dont have ap -3 and chance to deliver 2 damage apiece, i still prefer letters but of course if we talk about TS detachment they fill a close blodletters role.
Definitely true. Bloodletters hit way harder by virtue of their negative AP, and extra damage for taking down big targets. But so much easier to buff. They start out more durable in general, and can easily swell to almost Nurgle-like durability. Bloodletters have the advantage on charge distance and AP, but it's easier to use the swing-again stratagem on the Tzaangors, which in some cases is more useful than the high AP. And they don't blow over as easily as Bloodletters once they're on the table. Plus it's way easier to get them hitting on 2's re-rolling 1's, so unless you're tackling knights/heavy vehicles with them, I imagine the damage output is at least in the same ballpark.
ap-1 and ap-3 is huge difference, unless you play against anything with armor save 5+ or worse or you meet tons of inv saves, if you meet custodes, marines, veichles and so on, you ll experiment that Tzaangors ap-1 limit them, btw they are an awesome unit.
Why are Flesh Hounds considered to be so bad currently? They have a 10" move, have 3 S5 AP-1 attacks each on the charge, 2 wounds, and can Deny the Witch as though they were psykers (which I think is what might make them a hidden gem). The only downside is that they are 20 points each, but is that really too much? Maybe I'm just being wishful in my thinking because I have a bunch of them sitting on my shelf from 7th edition (where they were awesome in that Khorne Daemonkin formation).
ZergSmasher wrote: Why are Flesh Hounds considered to be so bad currently? They have a 10" move, have 3 S5 AP-1 attacks each on the charge, 2 wounds, and can Deny the Witch as though they were psykers (which I think is what might make them a hidden gem). The only downside is that they are 20 points each, but is that really too much? Maybe I'm just being wishful in my thinking because I have a bunch of them sitting on my shelf from 7th edition (where they were awesome in that Khorne Daemonkin formation).
because bloodletters hit harder and can be used in batallions so you get way more cp
The only REAL use for hounds is a really cheap source of deny the witch spam. So if you know for a fact you're facing a psyker list, bring an Outrider detachment of 3 squads of 5 and laugh in the face of Ahriman as you deny, deny, and deny some more.
vaklor4 wrote: The only REAL use for hounds is a really cheap source of deny the witch spam. So if you know for a fact you're facing a psyker list, bring an Outrider detachment of 3 squads of 5 and laugh in the face of Ahriman as you deny, deny, and deny some more.
People seem too under resting the Pink horrors. A full unit shoots 90 shots. Buff them up with a cheap changecaster for S4. If a Tzeentch DP is there reroll 1s. That’s 52 hits.
If you cast flickering flames on them they will do 17 wounds on a knight before save.
Warp surge still works the same for every unit except a Lord of change with robe. Gw did not intended for it to have a 2++ save so they change it a little but only so that combo did not work.
Emperial form gives Tzeentch +1 to the roll and not a +1 to our invul so warp surge a pink horror unit and it will save on a 4++ and have +1 to the roll making all 3s a save as well.
Tazberry wrote: People seem too under resting the Pink horrors. A full unit shoots 90 shots. Buff them up with a cheap changecaster for S4. If a Tzeentch DP is there reroll 1s. That’s 52 hits.
If you cast flickering flames on them they will do 17 wounds on a knight before save.
Warp surge still works the same for every unit except a Lord of change with robe. Gw did not intended for it to have a 2++ save so they change it a little but only so that combo did not work.
Emperial form gives Tzeentch +1 to the roll and not a +1 to our invul so warp surge a pink horror unit and it will save on a 4++ and have +1 to the roll making all 3s a save as well.
Horrors don't have ephemeral form, they have ephemeral demon which is a different rule. They cap out at 4++
Me and my club do not play with FW so I did not know that. But they are so overpriced and need a change so we can play with them.
And as for the pinks.... GW did feth up the writing once more. I did assume pinks had emperial form and blue and brims had different rule.. my bad so sorry and now I do need a distraction from my pinks.. back to list writing I guess.
Best distraction for pinks? More pinks. 60 pinks with extra points for splitting may not be the most "economic " option but good luck to your opponent actually getting rid of them. Drop them on a objective in the center of the field and hold it for a very long time.
Though myself i prefer a tzaangor dmc bomb, a deamon prince hedgehog assault, followed by a bloodletters and pink horror bomb. Very nasty one-two combo, and dont forget tzaangors rerolls vs charecters like knights or assassins or whatever. Makes them different enough to bloodletters to let them each have a space in my army.
I've always had problems with large units of pinks dying to morale. Big bloodletter blobs can at least pile in on multiple units and take a model hostage to prevent them from getting shot next turn. With 30-man pink blobs I am always torn on whether or not I should spend the 2CP to auto pass. To be fair, I haven't played a triple battalion list yet so maybe having tons of CP might be the answer. Last time I played 60 pinks against DE they pretty much all melted away from morale by T2.
Do you guys have any tips on how to keep pinks alive?
Splitting is only worth it for 50 points or 10 blue but more than that I find it a waste of points.
In one game I had 2 lord of change and 60 pinks. The 2 LoC was getting focused down so all my pinks survived till my T2.
My pinks split its fire and crippled the enemy so hard he could not make a comeback or pass past the middle of the table. The pink horrors take up so much board I would like to try 3x30 or even 4x30 and a lot of Tsons smiters. Take up so much space so the enemy have to go through all the pink while taking all smites and horror shots turn after turn. Imagine shining spears who wants to jump over and kill stuff in the back, can only charge at the frontline.
Tazberry wrote: Splitting is only worth it for 50 points or 10 blue but more than that I find it a waste of points.
In one game I had 2 lord of change and 60 pinks. The 2 LoC was getting focused down so all my pinks survived till my T2.
My pinks split its fire and crippled the enemy so hard he could not make a comeback or pass past the middle of the table. The pink horrors take up so much board I would like to try 3x30 or even 4x30 and a lot of Tsons smiters. Take up so much space so the enemy have to go through all the pink while taking all smites and horror shots turn after turn. Imagine shining spears who wants to jump over and kill stuff in the back, can only charge at the frontline.
Anyone tried 90-120 or more pink horrors?
I have not, but I HAVE tried 90 Letters, and to basically the same effect. Dropping in 90 bloodletters from deepstrike basically meant I charged his entire army, and bogged the entire force down while the rest of my army ran up freely.
90 letters seems like overkill in a very good way. Sadly I only got 30 letters. In my own experience a full unit of letters will kill what they charge. How do you deep strike them? 2 units T2 and then T3 the last unit? I find it hard to deep strike in good position.
Tazberry wrote: 90 letters seems like overkill in a very good way. Sadly I only got 30 letters. In my own experience a full unit of letters will kill what they charge. How do you deep strike them? 2 units T2 and then T3 the last unit? I find it hard to deep strike in good position.
you dont need to DS 90 letters 2nd turn, they hit like trucks but they are glasscannons, so you drop 30 2nd turn clean up 1-2 screening units then drop the rest 3rd turn, depend what kind of list ur facing, if you face a gunline with few screens you can drop 90 letters and engulf the whole enemy army in deadly melee.
Skull taker is pretty fantastic against beefy characters, and he provides a unique way of making Bloodletters scary, by basically letting you forgo having to worry about taking 20+ units, and instead just race up the board with 10 man units buffed by Taker. Karanak , never played it, dont know.
Also, YOU'RE DANG RIGHT I deepstriked all on turn 2! I daisy chained 4 models from each squad towards my Skarbrand (I think I lost 2-3 per unit from overwatch, so I was down to about 83 during combat) and spent the next 10 odd minutes rolling dice.
Thats why i like to mix tzaangors, pinks and bloodletters together. Tzaangors get t1 charge easy enough, then bloodletters and pinks t2 to finish the job. Add a pure demonettes detatchment in and they should also be in range t2 to assault, things get massively nasty real quick and there are 0 good options for your opponents anti tank to shoot at.
skulltaker is a decent choice but i prefer run a normal herald with crimsom crown (when i play a large bunch of letters), cost less +1 str and extra attacks on 6+ to wound
Skulltaker works well when you're taking smaller units of bloodletters that can't reliably stay over 20 models for hitting on 2s. What I've been noticing is bloodletters generally delete everything anyway regardless of buffs. They are glass but you really don't need many of them to demolish most infantry when they come in T2. The buffs help for tougher stuff of course.
barboggo wrote: Skulltaker works well when you're taking smaller units of bloodletters that can't reliably stay over 20 models for hitting on 2s. What I've been noticing is bloodletters generally delete everything anyway regardless of buffs. They are glass but you really don't need many of them to demolish most infantry when they come in T2. The buffs help for tougher stuff of course.
right btw i need to be 100% sure to obliterate the target i charge, im aware after 1st charge letters will be deleted as well, so i cant waste 235pts without removing at least 1 unit
Do you only play bloodletters at max squad size in 2k pts games? Always with triple daemon battalions?
With a single or double battalion build I think squads of 20 bloodletters are a pretty reasonable option for conserving CP. It still deletes weaker stuff reliably and allows your CSM or whatever allies to have more CP to play with.
I run my letterbombs in squads of 20 because, as noted above, they demolish almost everything they touch anyway and it saves me one CP per squad. 2 squads of 30 costs the same CP as 3 squads of 20, but the 20 squads can cover more positions on the board (for the cost of an extra banner and horn).
vaklor4 wrote: Second this issue. Surrounding is a lot easier said than done, you cant just forgo attacks magically, and more often than not even after pile in, the enemy is either dead or able to escape. You make it sound like this is a 100% always tactic, but its a best case scenario.
And id just like to note that im not saying my letter bombs arent effective. They total knights, ruin primarchs and blitz through gunlines. But the scenario of more than 5-8 of my bloodletters in a unit even surviving is rare. Only time that happens is if theyre ignored, usually because my Lord of Skulls is plowing down the middle of the field.
You need enemy to have left unit nearby which a) you can move into without charging them(so just pile in) b) hasn't models covered by other enemy models so that he can't fall back. But key #1 is trap unit that you did NOT declare charge. That unit will get to attack you but you aren't ALLOWED to attack it because you didn't charge it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I run my letterbombs in squads of 20 because, as noted above, they demolish almost everything they touch anyway and it saves me one CP per squad. 2 squads of 30 costs the same CP as 3 squads of 20, but the 20 squads can cover more positions on the board (for the cost of an extra banner and horn).
just be careful about what you charge, if just one die in overwatch you hit on 3+ not on 2+ anymore, most cases that wont make a big difference but against thought targets like IK it does. I play a triple battalio with 2x28 and 1x10 letters i keep in AiP the units with 28 models and i use the one with 10 to take some backfield obj, usually they are ignored, i might play 3x20 but again depend what you charge, i think when you drop 56-60 letters in enemy backfield that's enough in most cases
Hello fellow Chaos Worshippers!
I'm popping over here from the Death Gaurd world with the intention of starting some Nurgle Daemons. Where do I start? Rotigus any good? Are DPs much different from the DG ones? Which characters would synergize well with DG daemon vehicles?
And last but not least, is the start collecting box worth it?
Thanks a million!
The SC box is definitely worth it. Plaguebearers are great, you get a character, Nurglings are good for their "scouting" abilities, and the flies are good too. It's a solid box set. Can't comment on the rest, as I haven't played my Nurgle Daemons in 8th yet, but all the daemon SC's are solid purchases.
GD are actually pretty underwhelming but the Great unclean one model is cool, Nurgle Dp's are close to Dg Dp's, a nice character if you play PBC is the poxbringer, it gives them +1 strenght so you have str 8 flamers, must have are plaguebearers and nurglings, if you plan to play a mono nurgle another good model is feculent gnarlmaw
So I picked up a SC box of Daemons on the cheap (25% off). I already own a sizeable tzeentch/Khorne force, how would I bring Nurgle into it? I dont want to go crazy on Nurgle daemons, mind. So telling me to buy 80 more Plaguebearers is pretty out of the question.
Are Plaguebearers good for meat shielding my pink horrors? Additionally, im guessing Plague Drones are good objective stealers and harassment units?
Mmmm some tasty daemonic horde tactics going on here lately. This is the real reason I got back into 40k for 8th.
30 plaguebearers seems like a good number to start off with. I'm waiting on another 20 in the mail before I try out some new nurgle-y tactics for my daemons.
How many plaguebearers/nurglings do I need for a gnarlmaw to be worth it?
So, still looking to expand into Slaanesh from my mono-Khorne Daemons, how bad is the Keeper of Secrets? It's a hundred points cheaper than the other GDs, but my gut reaction says it's just a worse Daemon Prince(ss). That about right?
barboggo wrote: Mmmm some tasty daemonic horde tactics going on here lately. This is the real reason I got back into 40k for 8th.
30 plaguebearers seems like a good number to start off with. I'm waiting on another 20 in the mail before I try out some new nurgle-y tactics for my daemons.
How many plaguebearers/nurglings do I need for a gnarlmaw to be worth it?
It all depends. In my experience, you always want to put at least double the points into what a support unit is supporting. For example, don't bring a 74 point Dark Apostle to leadership protect 80 points of cultists, or try to bring 140+ points of stuff in a Rhino.
I forget off the top of my head how much the trees cost, but try to bring at least twice the number of points for it. It's not gospel, but it just seems right in my head and has worked well for me thus far.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: So, still looking to expand into Slaanesh from my mono-Khorne Daemons, how bad is the Keeper of Secrets? It's a hundred points cheaper than the other GDs, but my gut reaction says it's just a worse Daemon Prince(ss). That about right?
It's ABOUT the size of a DP, and more expensive. It also doesn't fly, and its 10+ leadership share is not really worth bringing it. IMO, always go Slaanesh Prince. It's rather unfortunate how overpriced all the GDs are. In almost every case, just bringing a couple daemon princes is always better.
Plus the keeper has over 10 wounds, its easy to kill. I mean 5++ isnt hard to get through especially in the age of knights.. definitely take them as deamon princes, they are much better in that role.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I already run a Bloodthirster, so if they'd be shooting the Keeper I'd be laughing. Might be better to just run Skarbrand instead though.
Skarbrand is usually worth that 20+ points. He is slower, but his 8" aura is amazing, and he is quite easier to hide behind buildings for cover bonus, or straight up LOS block. 10 morale leadership share is generally not worth it. THe only thirster i've found that is better or at least different enough is the two handed axe thirster, since it's basically a titan buster.
barboggo wrote: Mmmm some tasty daemonic horde tactics going on here lately. This is the real reason I got back into 40k for 8th.
30 plaguebearers seems like a good number to start off with. I'm waiting on another 20 in the mail before I try out some new nurgle-y tactics for my daemons.
How many plaguebearers/nurglings do I need for a gnarlmaw to be worth it?
vaklor4 wrote: So I picked up a SC box of Daemons on the cheap (25% off). I already own a sizeable tzeentch/Khorne force, how would I bring Nurgle into it? I dont want to go crazy on Nurgle daemons, mind. So telling me to buy 80 more Plaguebearers is pretty out of the question.
Are Plaguebearers good for meat shielding my pink horrors? Additionally, im guessing Plague Drones are good objective stealers and harassment units?
I picked up two SC boxes and they’ve done me well. I converted one of the Poxbringers into Epidemius and mustered a few more PBs. Now I’ve got a Battalion with two decent early midfield screen/bait/objective camping units, a solid 20-30 strong horde, a spellcaster with heal and buff available to it, and an army-wide buffer that after a few easy kills boosts my Plague Drones, Defilers, Obliterators, bloat Drones, and blight-haulers. Throw in a Warptimer and a Gnarlmaw and you’ve got T1 charges from really frightening-looking distraction carnifexes.
Nurgle Daemonkin is an approach that’s got lots of different playstyles and units and a strong visual theme, with a really modest troops tax that’s not as expensive or repetitive as doing 60+ of the same model. Easily able to do a CD, a DG, and a CSM Detachment in the same list.
vaklor4 wrote: So I picked up a SC box of Daemons on the cheap (25% off). I already own a sizeable tzeentch/Khorne force, how would I bring Nurgle into it? I dont want to go crazy on Nurgle daemons, mind. So telling me to buy 80 more Plaguebearers is pretty out of the question.
Are Plaguebearers good for meat shielding my pink horrors? Additionally, im guessing Plague Drones are good objective stealers and harassment units?
plagubearers are good if you play at least 30 with -1 to hit and decent amount of wounds, if you play just 10 is pointless play them unless you play just casual games against casual army lists.
vaklor4 wrote: So I picked up a SC box of Daemons on the cheap (25% off). I already own a sizeable tzeentch/Khorne force, how would I bring Nurgle into it? I dont want to go crazy on Nurgle daemons, mind. So telling me to buy 80 more Plaguebearers is pretty out of the question.
Are Plaguebearers good for meat shielding my pink horrors? Additionally, im guessing Plague Drones are good objective stealers and harassment units?
plagubearers are good if you play at least 30 with -1 to hit and decent amount of wounds, if you play just 10 is pointless play them unless you play just casual games against casual army lists.
Well, I do play them casually I don't attend tournaments.
Generally speaking this is how deamons of chaos work out.
All our troop choices are terrific in their given rolls. They are cheap, the can be used well to become strong, and if thats all you take that your opponent can shoot at then you have a decent advantage in that. The down side is they are mostly close combat only so there can be overlap and getting there with some options is harder said than done sometimes.
All our hq's with less than 10 wounds generally can find a home in our armies. Heralds and their new named equivalents make our troops better so taking them is easy. Deamon princes can do almost anything a greater deamon can do except they have a better chance of actually pulling it off thanks to targeting rules. All our hq's above 10 wounds have a place if your looking for fun / thematic lists but are seen generally as semi casual use only by the competitive side because deamon princes are more reliable and cheaper.
Everything else is just not very good / situational/ or casual use only.
I use deamons as the main line force with chaos marines and thousand sons as "gap coverage " for areas i need more support in (read : shooting)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I already run a Bloodthirster, so if they'd be shooting the Keeper I'd be laughing. Might be better to just run Skarbrand instead though.
Skarbrand is usually worth that 20+ points. He is slower, but his 8" aura is amazing, and he is quite easier to hide behind buildings for cover bonus, or straight up LOS block. 10 morale leadership share is generally not worth it. THe only thirster i've found that is better or at least different enough is the two handed axe thirster, since it's basically a titan buster.
I meant running Skarbrand instead of the Keeper, so doubling down on Khorne and bringing both Skarbrand and a Thirster of Insensate Rage. I'm aware it's not competetive, but I picked up Daemons for the big boys.
For what it's worth I'm not so sure that a Prince can actually do what a Thirster can, even with Skullreaver. The Prince gets no sweep attack and is thus either stuck killing multi-model units with a Titan-killing axe or trying to slap big, tough targets to death with claws. A Thirster can just charge first and let Khorne sort them out later. Princes are obviously better, but not because of better combat prowess (even 2 Princes aren't that much better offensively) but because the current Character rules are a bit special, to say the least.
A thirster is also worth a little under two princes with wings. Two princes with claws means 16 attacks that dont degrade, at strength 8 on the charge. Its about the same as a Bloodthirster sweep. DPs also reroll 1s, which DPs do not. They also can hide behind other models. The pros outweigh ANY cons.
Additionally, its -2 AP, 2 D. Which is better than the sweep anyways.
Brymm wrote: Hello fellow Chaos Worshippers!
I'm popping over here from the Death Gaurd world with the intention of starting some Nurgle Daemons. Where do I start? Rotigus any good? Are DPs much different from the DG ones? Which characters would synergize well with DG daemon vehicles?
And last but not least, is the start collecting box worth it?
Thanks a million!
Plaguebearers are pretty solid, but compete with Nurglings for troops. Nurglings are possibly the best troops in the game with their scout and durability. Excellent at bait, forcing targets, tarpitting, and dep strike denial. You can easily have board control for 300pt of nurglings.
Heralds are solid synergy, poxbringer for spells+strength, and no slouch in CC. Scriviner buffs PB and drones really well, and bilepiper is decent for moral and good around nurglings, though I rarely take one instead of a poxbringer. +1 strength and the +1 wound spell on nurglings goes a long way in helping them actually hurt things.
Plague drones are good, and with buffs, insanely good. There are not many large durable units in the game with FLY. With a gnarlmaw you can pop off a T1 charge, proper buffs can have them dealing 5dmg a swing with their claws.I've ran a list with 3 units of 7 several times and always done very well. No AP stinks, but mass of attacks is nice, all you need is one failed save to deal decent dmg, drones play the averages game.
GUO, these dudes suffer the same as other greater daemons, too squishy. The GUO is resilient, but only being T7 (while a leman russ is T8, wtfGW?) will have him shot full of lascannons with a quickness, especially if your opponent has mistakenly let one into CC. The flail/sword is an awesome combo for damage.
Rotigus is pretty swell, but suffers like the GUO. They wont make or break games, and you pretty much have to deep strike them.
Beasts of nurgle are still a poor choice, especially when you could grab plague toads from FW.
Daemon princes are good, but DG ones are better as you get to re-roll hits for DG and daemons. Where the daemon ones are only for daemons. Still though, you can have 6 DP in a DG/Daemon list
Epidemius is awesome, and if you run DG/Daemons, you have a ton of great synergy. Bring some bloat drones, daemon princes, ton of nurglings and really whatever you want that has DAEMON and NURGLE. Then just go to town. Epidemius is no longer a wet towel in CC, so just don't let him get shot, your opponent will do their best to kill him.
Soul grinders are bleh, awesome models, but just are not as durable as they need to be. Again, the dreaded T7, as well as being overcosted, as you are forced to take the ranged weapons. This makes defilers start to pull ahead in usability. Bloat drones with fleshmowers blow soul grinders out of the water in every way.
Furies are terrible and you should never take them.
As said, the start collecting box is amazing, one of the better deals out there, as all units are great. You can make 9 or so nurgling bases out of the bits ot make 3 if you are creative, and I highly suggest it. Sadly, you missed the daemons prime in 8th, when deep strike T1 was a thing, it was incredibly awesome to lock an entire opponents army down T1.
So I was thinking of getting some more bloodletters (30) and starting to build a new list. So what can I do to not getting them killed after they charged and killed it’s targets. So I added threats that’s need to die and this is the list I’ve came up with.
2x changecaster
2x 10 brimstone horrors
30 pinks
DP skullreaver
Skarbrand
3x20 Bloodletters icon and instrument
Magnus the red
Letters and Skarbrand deep strikes so Magnus is on thin ice T1 sadly but if he survives to T2 my opponent will have some hard targeting difficulties on what to shoot.
Any suggestions are welcome and so is criticism as well.
Tazberry wrote: So I was thinking of getting some more bloodletters (30) and starting to build a new list. So what can I do to not getting them killed after they charged and killed it’s targets. So I added threats that’s need to die and this is the list I’ve came up with.
2x changecaster
2x 10 brimstone horrors
30 pinks
DP skullreaver
Skarbrand
3x20 Bloodletters icon and instrument
Magnus the red
Letters and Skarbrand deep strikes so Magnus is on thin ice T1 sadly but if he survives to T2 my opponent will have some hard targeting difficulties on what to shoot.
Any suggestions are welcome and so is criticism as well.
in this list Magnus die turn1, he is the only threat on table turn 1, i would go for a TS battalion to have max cp to deepstrike the korne units and pinks.
maybe a thing like this
i dont like Skarbrand but if you think is fine play it, 18 cp's you can AiP 3x20 letters 30 pinks and skarbrand+changecaster (11cp), or you can keep on the table the pinks +changecaster as you think is better, tzaangors moved with DMC when needed (usually when you drop the letters so you have threat saturation).
When playing this many Letters, Skarbrand provides two unique benefits.
1. +1 attack to all models. That's pretty huge already.
2. If he actually makes his charge from deepstrike, you can give a penalty to the opponent for trying to fall back, potentially hiding at least a couple of your letter bombs for a turn from shooting.
I like that list, but sadly I do not own any tzangors.
It’s not that I like Skarbrand or Magnus, they are there with all the letters so my opponent have to choose their targets.
Removed Magnus and added Ahriman and two princes instead for more smiting power.
So T2 my opponent will have to try to kill 3x20 letters, Skarbrand or Tsons smiters hiding behind what’s left of pink horrors.
Hopefully I can try this list tomorrow and proxy 30letters and come back for an update.
this is why play Magnus is a no sense, you deep strike your heavy hitters turn 2 so why gift ir opponent with an obvious target turn 1? Magnus works fine in lists where you play some more big guys, Mortarion and/or Ik's i tested a list with Magnus 2 renegade with double gatling and a Dominus and worked pretty fine, but was made to play ij ETC format.
I need your help deciding between the two list below. Trying to go for a competitive but not so aggressive list with a bit of durability with some shoot. Any and all comments welcome.
LIST1
Chaos Tzeentch Battalion
Changecaster-Flickering Fyre, Gaze of Fate
FluxMaster - Flickering Fyre, Gaze of Fate
blackmage wrote: sure better the 1st, but why same pyschic powers on changecaster/fluxmaster?
My reason behind using the same spell is two things. These are the best spells for this type of hero since they are more of a supporting role and 2nd in case I do not get flickering fire off with one, i can have the other do so. Thanks for the feedback.
more solid in my opinion, you have 14 cp's, ds 60 horrors+changecaster with flickering flames and 9 oblys, the rest move over obejactives, Pb's at -2 to be hit are very durable they can tarpit anything if you want more offensive oriented pb's play a scrivener instead of poxbringer, but in that list i would prefer a poxbringer, Slaanesh Dp deliver 8 attacks at str 8 and he got 9 wounds, you have a decent psychic phase, with that spearhead you get slaanesh stratagem to let oblys shot twice. A better setup would be 30 pink and 30 letters 2nd turn you drop 30 pink and 30 letters trying to cripple your opponent and then 3rd turn you drop oblys and finish the job.
lindsay40k wrote: Units of ten Brinstones... why not put a single Blue in there?
Because the moment that Blue dies, you lose that 5++ invuln. You CAN run a blue for that initial attack, but honestly the only reason Brimstones are used is for their wounds, not their saves or toughness. They just squat there and laugh as your opponent wastes a 65 point squad of marines killing a 30 point unit of chaff. They are the ultimate example of abusing the wounding mechanic this edition, since wounds don't carry over.
Has there been a discussion about the burning chariot? On paper it looks awesome especially adding the irritating horrors to -1 against enemy psychic test that target units within the bubble. Plus in comeback that chariot can hit back w/ 6 str6 ap 3 hits. I think I may try them out, been having alot more success with tzeentch lately. Thoughts?!?!?
1. Very threatening at range so your opponent will prioritize them earlier
2. Much easier to kill since no character protection, T5, and it's a gigantic model
Its abilities aren't awful if it stays alive long enough to make its points back. But it's a rather easy target for your opponent. A T5 8W body flying around blasting 3 S9 shots every turn? For your opponent, shooting it is a no brainer and it's not even particularly hard to kill.
I think it works ok if you manage to exploit its speed and keep it out of LOS until you get within melee range. Then you unload flames and charge, hopefully killing some of your opponent's expensive elite units. Otherwise it will probably die to medium strength shooting T1.
The reason why daemon princes and obliterators and bloodletters are considered strong is because there are effective ways to prevent them from dying before they unload all their damage and hopefully make most or all of their points back on the initial strike. With burning chariots their best defense is using speed to stay out of LOS. Unlike a DP's character protection, that's not a guaranteed thing because it relies heavily on terrain and deployment. So most likely they will be decent in some games and useless in others.
1. Very threatening at range so your opponent will prioritize them earlier
2. Much easier to kill since no character protection, T5, and it's a gigantic model
Its abilities aren't awful if it stays alive long enough to make its points back. But it's a rather easy target for your opponent. A T5 8W body flying around blasting 3 S9 shots every turn? For your opponent, shooting it is a no brainer and it's not even particularly hard to kill.
I think it works ok if you manage to exploit its speed and keep it out of LOS until you get within melee range. Then you unload flames and charge, hopefully killing some of your opponent's expensive elite units. Otherwise it will probably die to medium strength shooting T1.
The reason why daemon princes and obliterators and bloodletters are considered strong is because there are effective ways to prevent them from dying before they unload all their damage and hopefully make most or all of their points back on the initial strike. With burning chariots their best defense is using speed to stay out of LOS. Unlike a DP's character protection, that's not a guaranteed thing because it relies heavily on terrain and deployment. So most likely they will be decent in some games and useless in others.
I can agree with you as far as yes, by itself its big but as part of an army that has daemon princes, i think this is a perfect screen for them. Not only will it take the attention off the DP but it can threaten w/ both shooting and combat (2 phases), which to me, should be worth a try out. I am also banking on the fact that because its not a heavily used model people will not see its full potential right away. I do believe running this guy with a 1k Son DP, will allow it to re-roll 1's when shooting the DP aura say 1k sons as well as tzeentch daemons.
What do you guys think of this list? It's basically a bunch of multi-purpose daemon bodies surrounding Ahriman and his pet Leviathan at the center with 18CP. The plaguebearers/cultists start on the board screening the leviathan while the 40x pinks drop T2 to clear screens and finally the bloodletters drop T3 to clean up.
Does the list has enough bodies to prevent the leviathan from getting charged? After pre-game stratagems it should have 13CP to warp surge, Khorne doublefight, etc throughout the course of the battle.
TS Battalion
1x Ahriman, Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates, Prescience
1x TSDP, Wings/Talons, High Magister, DMC, Warptime, Death Hex
1x Hellforged Leviathan, 2x Butcher Cannon
3 x 10 Cultists
Nurgle Battalion
1x DP, Wings/Talons, Miasma of Pestilence
1x Poxbringer, Virulent Blessing
30x Plaguebearers
2 x 3 Nurglings
Daemons Battalion
1x Changecaster, Gaze of Fate, Flickering Flames
1x Changecaster, Bolt of Change, Flickering Flames
30x Bloodletters, Banner/Instrument
2 x 20 Pink Horrors
I can agree with you as far as yes, by itself its big but as part of an army that has daemon princes, i think this is a perfect screen for them. Not only will it take the attention off the DP but it can threaten w/ both shooting and combat (2 phases), which to me, should be worth a try out. I am also banking on the fact that because its not a heavily used model people will not see its full potential right away. I do believe running this guy with a 1k Son DP, will allow it to re-roll 1's when shooting the DP aura say 1k sons as well as tzeentch daemons.
A good screen should be durable and cheap. Burning chariots are neither. They have too much dakka for how vulnerable they are and that means if used purely as a screen it will be difficult for them to make their points back. In order to get value out of burning chariots you MUST make it into CC. Otherwise you're better off running exalted flamers without the chariot for comparable mobility and equivalent shooting. Exalted flamers aren't great either btw as 3x S9 shots usually aren't enough to make a difference considering that the unit is almost 100 pts.
An example of a fast, mobile screening unit that fills the role you're proposing is an Eldar wave serpent. 13W, T7, 3+ sv, -1 to all damage, -1 to hit if Alaitoc, another -1 to hit with Lightning Fast Reflexes, 9x S6 rending shots at 24", and 16" move... all for 10 pts more than a chariot.
I'm taking a Khorne supreme command with my Alpha Legion at my next FLGS competition with Skarbrand, Karanak, and a winged prince with sword.
My CSM only has a Heldrake for Daemon synergy. Warlord is CSM.
Should I consider the Crimson Crown for the prince to tag along Skarbrand? I'm concerned the prince will outpace Skarbrand, and/or Skarbrand will get shot off the board before making it into combat.
Skarbrand keeps my cultists fearless, but with only 9CP I'm not sure if I want to keep him in the warp or field him to give that fearless aura.
Alternatively, what about the Armor of Scorn, or the King of Blades? 4++ would be nice but I already have 4 DTW. The -4 AP on the sword looks great as the meta here is an armor parking lot (there won't be any knights to warrant skullreaver).
I could save 1 CP and take nothing but I think the benefits the relic gives the prince are pretty tasty.
OK, so if i make that change to bump up two of the pinkies to 30 man and bring in a squad of brims, im left with 51 pts. Where should i invest it?
You might consider saving them for reserves to split the pinks into blues when a group would otherwise drop below 20.
On a relevant side note: 1kSons sadly can't take Obliterators.
Yeah, i changed it to an CSM Iron warrior detachment which ended up working out better but i had to lose the DP to do so. The list worked out well, i was surprise as to how much trouble 25 pinks gave people. My new list i am working with will bring in 3 units of 25 but with no icon. Never felt like i needed it plus the pinks were going to die by mass shooting so it wouldnt of helped much.
Blueguy203 wrote: i was surprise as to how much trouble 25 pinks gave people. My new list i am working with will bring in 3 units of 25 but with no icon. Never felt like i needed it plus the pinks were going to die by mass shooting so it wouldnt of helped much.
I have found this nearly every time I play them. Pinks are just scary to lots of folks. When I drop in my 30-man blob, and I say that I get 90 shots wounding vehicles on 4s or infantry on 3s, people get pretty antsy.
The last game I played I used my Horde II list, which has 30 Pinks (Fire Bomb), 30 Plaguebearers (Virus Bomb), and 30 Bloodletters (Letter Bomb). At the end of the game, I had like 5 bloodletters left, roughly 15 plaguebearers, and every. single. Pink.
Pinks have been good for several editions now. I remember back in 5e (or 6e?) when I had my Pink Star: 20 Pinks with two Tzeralds that were actually, literally unkillable with a 2++ rerolling 1s, that did something like 4d6 ignores armor wounds.
Dactylartha wrote: I'm taking a Khorne supreme command with my Alpha Legion at my next FLGS competition with Skarbrand, Karanak, and a winged prince with sword.
My CSM only has a Heldrake for Daemon synergy. Warlord is CSM.
Should I consider the Crimson Crown for the prince to tag along Skarbrand? I'm concerned the prince will outpace Skarbrand, and/or Skarbrand will get shot off the board before making it into combat.
Skarbrand keeps my cultists fearless, but with only 9CP I'm not sure if I want to keep him in the warp or field him to give that fearless aura.
Alternatively, what about the Armor of Scorn, or the King of Blades? 4++ would be nice but I already have 4 DTW. The -4 AP on the sword looks great as the meta here is an armor parking lot (there won't be any knights to warrant skullreaver).
I could save 1 CP and take nothing but I think the benefits the relic gives the prince are pretty tasty.
Take axe and run Skullreaver. Deletes Knights real good.
Dactylartha wrote: I'm taking a Khorne supreme command with my Alpha Legion at my next FLGS competition with Skarbrand, Karanak, and a winged prince with sword.
My CSM only has a Heldrake for Daemon synergy. Warlord is CSM.
Should I consider the Crimson Crown for the prince to tag along Skarbrand? I'm concerned the prince will outpace Skarbrand, and/or Skarbrand will get shot off the board before making it into combat.
Skarbrand keeps my cultists fearless, but with only 9CP I'm not sure if I want to keep him in the warp or field him to give that fearless aura.
Alternatively, what about the Armor of Scorn, or the King of Blades? 4++ would be nice but I already have 4 DTW. The -4 AP on the sword looks great as the meta here is an armor parking lot (there won't be any knights to warrant skullreaver).
I could save 1 CP and take nothing but I think the benefits the relic gives the prince are pretty tasty.
Take axe and run Skullreaver. Deletes Knights real good.
I won't be playing against any knights, otherwise I would (and my list would be way different).
Blueguy203 wrote: i was surprise as to how much trouble 25 pinks gave people. My new list i am working with will bring in 3 units of 25 but with no icon. Never felt like i needed it plus the pinks were going to die by mass shooting so it wouldnt of helped much.
I have found this nearly every time I play them. Pinks are just scary to lots of folks. When I drop in my 30-man blob, and I say that I get 90 shots wounding vehicles on 4s or infantry on 3s, people get pretty antsy.
The last game I played I used my Horde II list, which has 30 Pinks (Fire Bomb), 30 Plaguebearers (Virus Bomb), and 30 Bloodletters (Letter Bomb). At the end of the game, I had like 5 bloodletters left, roughly 15 plaguebearers, and every. single. Pink.
Pinks have been good for several editions now. I remember back in 5e (or 6e?) when I had my Pink Star: 20 Pinks with two Tzeralds that were actually, literally unkillable with a 2++ rerolling 1s, that did something like 4d6 ignores armor wounds.
Just a quickie, what does the rest of the list look like? I imagine that fills most of it up.
Blueguy203 wrote: i was surprise as to how much trouble 25 pinks gave people. My new list i am working with will bring in 3 units of 25 but with no icon. Never felt like i needed it plus the pinks were going to die by mass shooting so it wouldnt of helped much.
I have found this nearly every time I play them. Pinks are just scary to lots of folks. When I drop in my 30-man blob, and I say that I get 90 shots wounding vehicles on 4s or infantry on 3s, people get pretty antsy.
The last game I played I used my Horde II list, which has 30 Pinks (Fire Bomb), 30 Plaguebearers (Virus Bomb), and 30 Bloodletters (Letter Bomb). At the end of the game, I had like 5 bloodletters left, roughly 15 plaguebearers, and every. single. Pink.
Pinks have been good for several editions now. I remember back in 5e (or 6e?) when I had my Pink Star: 20 Pinks with two Tzeralds that were actually, literally unkillable with a 2++ rerolling 1s, that did something like 4d6 ignores armor wounds.
Just a quickie, what does the rest of the list look like? I imagine that fills most of it up.
Tzeentch Battalion Ahriman on Disc TSons Winged Prince (WL, 3++, Helm) Changecaster 10x Brims 10x Brims 10x Brims 30x Pinks, Icon Reinforcements: 77pts for Splits
CPs start with 18, -5 for Deep Strike, -4 for relics = 9 to start with regen
LOTS of bodies, zero targets for anti-tank weaponry. I used to have an unkillable LoC at the middle of a Daemon Prince gang bang...but when the FAQ made him literally HALF as survivable (went from a 2++ to a 3++), I gave into the salt and don't want to use him. So I'm trying something else. (Arioch, Thelek’a’arnab, did a really good job, too. I'm sad he's banished to the Warp for now.)
PBs start on the field, with the Fire Bomb and Letter Bomb in reserve. PBs protect characters. Khorne moves up one side of the field, PBs hang in middle. T2 Pinks and Letters drop in and do work. Hopefully the small letter squads and nurglings have cleared an opening for the Letter Bomb.
I have several alternate ideas, but the core Triple Bomb is the same. The other two are: mix the Nurgle and Tzeentch Daemons, have a SC of TSons (Ahriman + 2 DPs); or replace some Brims and reinforcements with a Skull Cannon. I think the single Skull Cannon is a bad idea, since it is less survivable than the reinforcement splits and since it also will be the single anti-tank fire magnet on the table. But I like DPs, so more is better.
Im new to daemons and posted this in the lists thread but then thought id get better/ more timely help here. my tactics are listed at the bottom.
So Im participating in a team tournament tomorrow with my brother and I gave into using his daemons because he didn't want to use my Orks or imperium armies. Rules of the tournament require us to have equal amount of pts per list ( within 20 pts of each other) and must be able to be used as a sinlge list and share command pts. So no mixing chaos and imperium. He decided he wanted to make a Smash Bros. type list. This is just my FLGS and we aren't going super optimized but it appears he cares about winning more than I do. Ill be using his Nurgle daemons ( because I painted them for him) and he will be using thousand sons. Ive never used chaos before and have been trying to do research before I play. Here is the lists we made to deal with hordes and big thing alike. what do you guys/gals think?
Spoiler:
His list:
Outrider Detachment- 279pts
Warlord: Daemon Prince of Tzeencth
Relic- helm of third eye Spells: temporal manipulation, warptime
Trait- otherworldly prescience
wings, hellforged sword
3x Chaos Spawn
super heavy detachment-445pts
Magnus the Red
My list-
Super heavy detachment- 470pts
Mortarion - Blades of putrification, curse of leper, plague wind
Patrol detachement- Nurgle 302pts
Poxbringer- miasma of pestilence
Spoilpox scrivener
Plaguebearers x 21 instrument of chaos
Plan is for all my stuff to move up and then cast miasma on morty with poxbringer, morty cast blades on himself and either smite or antihorde spell based on opponent. My brother will warptime morty and boost invul of magnus followed by smite. I know we will be facing guard tank armies and orks with the new dex. I don't anticipate to many knights as our meta doesn't use that many.
The bearers will have decent speed now with +2 speed and +1 to advance. Ill stretch them to coherency to help block off field against deep strike and control objectives. They will begin with -1 to hit and after morty gets away from them and stuck in. turn 2 Ill cast miasma on them making them -2 if they are still at full number of models. If they fight they will be S5 with buffs to hit, wound, and dmg from my HQ units and Loci.
So I'm dead set on making a list with a Bloodthirster. I'm aware it's not the optimal choice, but whatever, I like the model. I came up with the following list:
--Khorne Daemons batallion, +5 CP--
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, Armour of Scorn - 340 - Warlord, Oblivious to Pain
Renegade Armiger, 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber - 174
Renegade Armiger, 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber - 174
1999 points and 13 Command Points, 6 of which will be spent buying banners and Deep Striking the Bloodletters. That leaves me with 7 to do cool things with, 5 if I want to Deep Strike Skarbrand too. With a Knight, 2 Armigers and at least one Bloodthirster on the board (and the Prince, but he's not getting shot) turn one there should be plenty of big targets to mess with target priority and nothing that attracts anti-infantry shooting.
Within the confines of having to run at least one Bloodthirster, how does it look?
You need more dakka to clear away chaff and bubble wrap. Else you will waste your blood letters charging into them and then they get shot off the board the next turn.
I would suggest changing the Renegade knight to twin avenger gratling cannon or at least one avenger. You will need to find points from somewhere though.
Leave it to your bloodthirsters and scarbrand to kill the heavies. One rapid fire battle cannon on its own won't do much anyway.
If I cut down the Bloodletter squad to 10 I'll be able to afford double gatlings, that was the other variant of the list I had in mind. What other chaff-clearers that work on turn 1 (so not Horrors or Flamers or the like) are there if I don't go for the Knight?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What other chaff-clearers that work on turn 1 (so not Horrors or Flamers or the like) are there if I don't go for the Knight?
Pinks are actually pretty good chaff clearers. They have an effective range of 24", so if you deploy directly on the line and go second you will most likely reach the enemy. With assault guns, you can even advance, although hitting on 5s isn't great. Putting a Tzeentch Prince next to them greatly improves their accuracy.
If you're deploying them on the board might as well go Alpha Legion cultists at that point for cheap 24" rapid fire . You get nearly 2 cultists per pink as well as the option for a pre-T1 9" move which can potentially put you in rapid fire range on T1. You can also use the 9" to reposition them more defensively if you don't get first turn.
I feel like pinks are a little expensive to deploy on the front lines with no defensive buffs and no way to surge them to 3++.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What other chaff-clearers that work on turn 1 (so not Horrors or Flamers or the like) are there if I don't go for the Knight?
Pinks are actually pretty good chaff clearers. They have an effective range of 24", so if you deploy directly on the line and go second you will most likely reach the enemy. With assault guns, you can even advance, although hitting on 5s isn't great. Putting a Tzeentch Prince next to them greatly improves their accuracy.
If opponent doesn't move forward you cannot reach them on T1 without advancing. Apart from minimum gap at the start being >24" even if you were to play it EXACTLY 24" as minimum gap opponent would have to be idiot to deploy EXACTLY on line when 1mm behind would be enough to negate that shooting(albeit in practice in these cases I deploy ~half an inch back and DECLARE they are 1/2" away so no matter how enemy moves it's going to be clear with just moving normally 18" gun with 6" movement he won't reach. This way I also bullet proof myself against some "creative" measurements from the enemy in T1)
Has anyone had any experience with summoning as opposed to Deep Strike?
I have a Fire Bomb (30 Pink Horrors) that I usually Deep Strike on T2. However, using a summons (with the 4d6 stratagem) would let them avoid enemy fire T1, and be on the field T1.
The downside is that the range is severely limited compared to Deep Strike.
I have a TSons Prince with Warptime who would do the summoning, so he could "move" afterwards and stay close. And he also has Temporal Manipulation and 8W, so he won't die from this tactic, and can heal himself.
I love the idea of summoning, but unless you're really (and I mean REALLY) pressed for CPs that you can't afford the Deep Strike stratagem from the daemon book, it's a very weak alternative. Even with Warptime, I think you're better off combining Warptime AND your normal move to give your character mobility. You shouldn't need to sacrifice a psychic power in the turn you summon to make up for an inherent weakness in the summoning rules. Plus, if you're using a stratagem to summon them with 4D6, you're still burning CPs? It seems a very niche benefit - getting them on the board in T1 and not T2 without having to deploy them.
EDIT: Just saw akaean post a much better reply in the Chaos Tactica thread, so yeah, go with that reply instead of mine, haha.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So I'm dead set on making a list with a Bloodthirster. I'm aware it's not the optimal choice, but whatever, I like the model. I came up with the following list:
--Khorne Daemons batallion, +5 CP--
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, Armour of Scorn - 340 - Warlord, Oblivious to Pain
Renegade Armiger, 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber - 174
Renegade Armiger, 2x Armiger Autocannon, Heavy Stubber - 174
1999 points and 13 Command Points, 6 of which will be spent buying banners and Deep Striking the Bloodletters. That leaves me with 7 to do cool things with, 5 if I want to Deep Strike Skarbrand too. With a Knight, 2 Armigers and at least one Bloodthirster on the board (and the Prince, but he's not getting shot) turn one there should be plenty of big targets to mess with target priority and nothing that attracts anti-infantry shooting.
Within the confines of having to run at least one Bloodthirster, how does it look?
This list is going to get destroyed in a lot of matchups, sadly; Skarbrand really is weak for 300 points.
Secondly, Renegade Knights best loadouts I find are double gatling (24 shots) or double Thermals (up to 12 melta shots). The melee options for our knights arent that great without strats, and the battle cannons realllllyyy expensive.
I'd remove Skarbrand, and beef up the units to 20 each. I'd also find room for getting a Herald in there for the Crown relic which is extremely good. You only get 11 CP overall (-3 for relics), so I'd spend the rest wisely (DS at least one bomb). Just my thoughts!
I got to use my Skarbrand this weekend but didn't build around him. In all 3 games he failed his charge after deep striking and the reroll. Statistically improbable but nevertheless it happened. Got dropped to 1 wound by a 2 gat gun knight and 8 lascannons and then stepped on first game, 2nd game killed a very brave assassin that charged me and got a slam cap down to 1 wound before the captain made his LD9 roll to run away and order 8 lascannons into skarbrand to being him down, and 3rd game was exposed to 4 unmolested russes that took him down.
If he had gotten in to combat, or if I was able to tie up shooters in melee when he deep striked in, it would have maybe gone differently.
I wish all the greater daemons were better on the table top.
But I have no real idea how to improve them rules wise other than giving them more wounds and better saves.
dan2026 wrote: I wish all the greater daemons were better on the table top.
But I have no real idea how to improve them rules wise other than giving them more wounds and better saves.
I would like an aura for the Greaters: lesser daemons of their god are immune to morale, but every time the GD takes a wound, on a 4+ remove a lesser daemon of your choice that's affected by the aura.
It would not fall into the same problem as the immovable conscripts bc the GDs are so expensive. But when you have a 30-block of Pinks, you now have a large incentive to take a LoC to support them.
yesterday at league tournament 3nd place with triple demons battalions
90 Pb winged dp scrivener
3x3 nurglins poxbringer sloppity
Korne Dp skulllreaver
Korne herald wirth crown
28+28+10 letters
i won 2 games for wipe out (tau and Sw) and lost one with guard+admech full anti infantry hammer and anvil deployment ouch.... but was anyway a close game.
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dan2026 wrote: I wish all the greater daemons were better on the table top.
But I have no real idea how to improve them rules wise other than giving them more wounds and better saves.
in this edition to make GD better they should drop half their price, nothing more to say, or give them 3++ save.
Congrats man. Good to see daemons doing well. Anti-infantry + anvil deployment sounds like bad news for daemons given our limited army composition options. But it's certainly great to see an army full of Khorne daemons placing in the top 3 at an event. Was it ITC scoring?
nope was ETC, i play in europe, btw the match against that admech+guard was anyway close, he won just cause mortars in his last turn took out my letters, or we was at that moment 10-10 so a tie, for me was a great intersting match if i could face a list like that and have chance to win im pretty sure it is very solid, not easy find so much anti infantry in a list, 108 re roll to hit hits lot of mortars and heavy bolters.
I like the idea of converting wounds into lesser deamons myself, but that could be easily broken. Lower cost / 3++ save is the only real option. Gd's dont have guns, they are cc tanks in a game that at the moment doesnt like cc.
Or stop letting everyone just walk out of cc. If there was a run away roll (roll d6+ add movement vs opponents movement +d6. If you get higher you move that far. If same or lower your stuck in cc).
demons are one of the most viable CaC army in the game if they want and setup properly, they can release close to enemy any heavy hitters they have, drop 60 letters+crowded herald with rage incarnated in face of enemy and see....you wreack havocs.
I would be really interested to see a fallback prevention as a beta rule. I wonder what GW would come up with. Surprisingly to me that isn't something you can do in AoS, which is where I originally thought the rule was adapted from.
Supposedly on Friday there will be Slaanesh Daemons vs World Eaters on the WarhammerTV Livestream. Kind of excited to watch it as a Slaanesh player... they probably won't show any new goodies though.
gwarsh41 wrote: I would be really interested to see a fallback prevention as a beta rule. I wonder what GW would come up with. Surprisingly to me that isn't something you can do in AoS, which is where I originally thought the rule was adapted from.
would be intersting but doubt they will do if they will ever do i doubt they let you charge from ds for example.
I got a Herald of Tzeentch today, and I was wondering, is the Irritating Chant worth using the three Blue Horrors with my Herald, or should I just add them to a general Blue Horror unit?
gwarsh41 wrote: I would be really interested to see a fallback prevention as a beta rule. I wonder what GW would come up with. Surprisingly to me that isn't something you can do in AoS, which is where I originally thought the rule was adapted from.
Fiends prevent fall back except for units with FLY.
