yes plague drones are superior in every way, but they still need lot of support to be really dangerous, virulent blessing+Dp to re roll 1's and scrivener for 3+ to hit, or they are average, with no ap and 4+ to hit, i played them for a while and now switch to bloodletters, they hit like trucks also with no support, pretty fragile compared to drones but i need something can really kill quickly anything i can face.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I got a Herald of Tzeentch today, and I was wondering, is the Irritating Chant worth using the three Blue Horrors with my Herald, or should I just add them to a general Blue Horror unit?
I think it’s situational and kinda gimmicky. There’s potential in Blue Scribes synergy, but I’m not convinced such flimsy units can pull much off outside of casual. I’m gonna put them on mine and have it join a group of TS heroes, see what kind of impact they make.
I have had some success with fiends, its all about the target your charging i have found. I run mine straight at a unit that has no cc ability like a predator or rhino thats causing problems. Normally they get shot right away because my opponents know what will happen if they get into cc (nothing is as annoying as watching your las pred try to melee a slaanesh fiend and having to send someone to go save it from being stuck in cc). But that makes them a distraction carnifex, buys other things time to move.
Do NOT get me wrong, they die a lot more often than i get to actually use them, and against anything with some dedicated cc punch (you have powerfist in that tac squad? Pass...) they will die quick. They need to be looked at and modifed by gw somehow. I hope the new release will do something for them but i doubt it. But they are not total garbage, they just have a very specific use now that goes against their fluff.
i doubt anything will go down, i wont bet plaguebearers will stay at 7pts each, i can bet they will cost 1-2 pts more,every competitive list at major tournaments played 90/120 or more, in ETC i face regularly lists with 120/150 Pb's
operkoi wrote: I know it's a bit late but does the CA change to warp surge mean you can't use it on any tzeentch daemons except blues and brimstones?
Nope, pinks are the only ones totally barred. They have a natural 4++ while every other tzeentch daemon gers a 5++ but with a +1 mod attached. So everyone except pinks is fine.
vaklor4 wrote: Id want Greater daemons, bloodcrushers, blue horrors and screamers to get reductions. The first two in particular are laughable
Ain't that the damn truth. All of the Greater Daemons need 80-100 points taken off. They are nowhere near durable enough for their points, especially with the nerf to Warp Surge (meaning no more 3++ Bloodthirsters with Armor of Scorn). And honestly even with a decent points drop Bloodcrushers will likely still suck because they directly compete with Bloodletters, which do the same job much better. Bloodcrushers really just need new rules, some new tactical niche that they can fill (that Bloodletters or other things cannot).
Yeah I find that even at T7 3++ with -1 to hit, any big 14-18 wound monster will get effectively 1-turned by the opposing force at 2k points. Usually either dropped to the lowest bracket or killed outright on T1. Almost certainly dead on T2.
Plaguebearers I've found to be stupid good. Point for point possibly the most resilient unit in the game, and on top of that have the option to be buffed to extreme CC damage output and Eldar infantry speed.
blackmage wrote: yes plague drones are superior in every way, but they still need lot of support to be really dangerous, virulent blessing+Dp to re roll 1's and scrivener for 3+ to hit, or they are average, with no ap and 4+ to hit, i played them for a while and now switch to bloodletters, they hit like trucks also with no support, pretty fragile compared to drones but i need something can really kill quickly anything i can face.
How many plague drones in a 2k list have you been experimenting with? I've had great success with 30-60 bloodletters but am interested in swapping them out for plague drones sometimes for variety.
plague drones cant ever fill same letter role, they are resilient but they need ton of support to be effective, a Dp to re roll 1's scrivener for +1 to hit and virulent blessing, hit on 4+ and ap0 make them bit underwhelming, i played 2x8 time ago (often in Ds depend by opponent list) with couple of nurgle Dp's, now i play 3x20 letters and never swap anymore for drones, with fly nerf then they cant fly over screens like they sometimes might do before, str 5/6 ap -3 ac 2+ 2 attacks and stratagem which make them attacks twice makes all the difference in favour of letters, 3 waves of 20 and you can handle anything also with no support.
Aside from the FLY nerf, Plague Drones also can’t do what Bletters do because when they have high damage output it’s both (1) dependent on getting multiple buffs off, and (2) based on your opponent failing saves against high damage low AP attacks. Sure, they can disengage from hordes, but bloodletters can eat their way through moderately large waves of 1W models, potentially scoring VPs on the way.
yes that is, btw they are still viable,sure they aren't a powerhouse but they cam find a place in mononugle armies and still be decent, they just need too much support.
Interesting thoughts about the Plague Bearers. In my games they usually don't survive turn 1-2, but I only have 30 in 1000pts. games or 60 in 2000points games. And if they reach combat they're also not that killy despite scrivener/herald and psychic buffs. Usually the HQs are the ones' that do the killing, especially Poxbringers are extremely good for their points, I usually max them out, sad that rule of 3 hit them, I'd use 5 of them if I could .
Playing Nurgle Daemons and DG I've had much more success with plague marines than with Plague bearers, despite Dakka saying it should be the other way around .
Those are definitely interesting results. The -2 to hit warp surge 4++/5+++ seem pretty unbeatable for the value at 1000pts games. I ran 30 in a somewhat casual 1500pt game against Magnus/Thousand Sons a couple of days ago and they were basically unkillable over 5 turns.
What kind of lists do you go up against typically?
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lindsay40k wrote: Aside from the FLY nerf, Plague Drones also can’t do what Bletters do because when they have high damage output it’s both (1) dependent on getting multiple buffs off, and (2) based on your opponent failing saves against high damage low AP attacks. Sure, they can disengage from hordes, but bloodletters can eat their way through moderately large waves of 1W models, potentially scoring VPs on the way.
<3 bloodletters. Best unit and best sculpt of 8E. Reminds me that I need to take some photos of my bloodletters to post in my blog thread.
Hard to pull off Miasma when the opponent has +1 to deny the witch.
Long Fangs can ignore to hit modifiers straight away.
Necrons have my will be done and Tesla.
Tau can snipe characters.
Harlequins walk through Plague bearers easily.
I'm not saying Plague bearers are bad for their points, they're clearly not. It's just that in my experience they're just cannon fodder to live long enough until the real damage dealers reach the enemy - the HQ choices. And I've won most of the games with Daemons, just not in a way I would prefer. It's usually turn 1-2 - most Plague Bearers get blown to pieces while Nurglings hold objectives and slow down enemies that try to take these objectives from them, Turn 3-5 Herolds and princes smite and kill the enemy in CC. Sometimes Drones or Beasts are in the mix as well, but they're also just tying the enemy up until some HQ comes around for the kill. It's a little different when Epidemius is on the field and gets his tally going, then Plague Bearers become strong (but at this point the enemy is usually pretty broken anyway)
Unlike Plague Marines Plague Bearers in a mono-nurgle army face the problem of being the only target to shoot at, while Plague Marines in DG are usually the last (due to Drones, Princes, PBC, Helbrutes...). And at the same time Plague Marines have decent firepower.
Morale is usually a problem for Plague bearers. Every other game you might be lucky to save some with a banner or the piper, but it's in no way reliable and I'm always hesitant to pay 2CP to save 7-12 plague bearers from running away (especially when I've already invested points in banners and/or piper). How do you guys do it?
i think you need improve ur way of play
i beaten necrons, tau and arlequins more than 1 time, maybe 30 are too few but you sure need to play better lists
Morale is a problem for demons but i never lost 1 single unit to morale tests, keep 2Cp when needed and play blilepiper with +1 morale trait. Last tournament i tabled Tau a space wolf and draw against a whole anti horde list (and i mean a list setup to beat lists like Pb's spam), so no, Pb's are great. I think ur problem is the list not the Pb's, start play 60-90 and see how things will change.
About damage, i killed many things with Pb's with banners virulent blessing for example, anwyay caompetitive demon lists play always heavy hitters like letters and Dp's, the Pb's are the anvil (controlling the table and tarpit enemy units) then letters/dp, the hammer, will come and they wreak havoc.
PS: harley have no chance against 90/120 Pb 2/3 Dp's and 60 letters they will be tabled anytime.
Yeah, I'm not a competitive player and I don't intend to buy more plague bearers, 60 are definitely enough, especially as I'm running out of model alternatives . And as I said I still won most of these matchups, it's just that it wasn't because of plague bearers but because of poxbringers or the Daemon prince. And I'm playing mono nurgle so letters are out of question. Usually I ally in some DG for some much needed ranged hitting power. The two together work pretty well, but again, plague bearers usually don't do much than soaking up firepower and dieing, which is at least something I guess.
We'll see what CA brings. If the Great Unclean One gets reduced in points, he'll also be an answer to my morale problem.
so you won your games thx to poxBRINGERS (ore you meant poxWALKERS)+Dp ? because if you won thx to poxbringers i doubt you play against any skilled player.
Am I crazy for thinking that Horrors have a 3++ from ephemeral form and ephemeral daemon stacking with each other? Is it just a typo or am I missing something?
BlaxicanX wrote: Am I crazy for thinking that Horrors have a 3++ from ephemeral form and ephemeral daemon stacking with each other? Is it just a typo or am I missing something?
Those points drops on the greater daemons look tasty. Although while a 265 pt bloodthirster is better... without a reliable way to make it into combat it still loses to 30x bloodletters.
Looking to start a dual 40k and AoS Daemon host of Khorne and Slaanesh.
(Numerous Aelves and a resurgence of GK on the cards)
Obviously I am looking to pick up two Wrath and Rapture boxes as the core of my forces, but would it be worth also grabbing a SC! of each of those gods?
Gd like Bt still will never be played unless some change in their Ti or something like that will be made, why spend 265pts fora Bt when with a 235 i get 30 letters with icon+instrumenst, ds and charge 2nd turn, shrugging off multi damage weapons having obj secure and delivering 61 attacks at 2+? Maybe you can play LoC or Guo.
Those points drops on the greater daemons look tasty. Although while a 265 pt bloodthirster is better... without a reliable way to make it into combat it still loses to 30x bloodletters.
Dunno I agree with that. I think the viability of the 'thirster is dependent on the rest of your army.
Or, better yet:
...and are we sure that the 'letters (and other troop units) didn't get a price bump?
So basically, GDs are going to get costed as distraction carnifexes, enabling us to build an army that does the heavy lifting whilst they do the fire magnetism
Mmm. Well, a first turn charge might be on the cards half the time with my KoS, then...
KOS can cost 150 but will die turn 1 with that idiotic save , Dp remain superior they cant be targeted, same for Bt , Guo have advantage of FNP at least, anyway price drop open a small door for them so maybe some lists might play them, i really hope they become really viable, i have a full hand made LoC and a Guo waiting
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lindsay40k wrote: So basically, GDs are going to get costed as distraction carnifexes, enabling us to build an army that does the heavy lifting whilst they do the fire magnetism
Mmm. Well, a first turn charge might be on the cards half the time with my KoS, then...
first turn charge is strong only if your opponent play a weak list or very inesperienced, against tons of serious lists 1st turn you will charge chaffs then KOS die, 1st turn charge is like smoke and mirrors, imho.
"This unit isn't as good as one of the best units in the game" is probably not an amazing comparison. But, even then, let's head to head it with a demon prince with wings.
30 points less, +1 additional cast power, 3 damage attacks vs 2, better AP, 50% more wounds. +1 toughness and two abilities which degrade things fighting back. No fly, degrading stat profile, no aura, no meat shields.
I think even without being cheaper it's a good solid comparison. And at 150 points, who cares if its shot off the board?
tokugawa wrote: If KoS reduced its cost to 150pts, it would be competitive.
I don't know about competitive but it would be playable. A winged Daemon Prince is still going to be the better choice just because it has better durability for 20 pts more.
Hopefully Zeraknyl can get a realistic point cost again, instead of the meme 666pts I miss her pre nerf points cost which was around 380pts. I'd also like a drop on the points costs of Fiends and chariots, perhaps a point drop on the humble Daemonette just to make them more competitive with Bloodletters.
Thing is 30 bloodletters is still a better distraction carnifex, largely because it will be in combat the turn it drops and deny shooting for a little while. Skullreaver DP also effectively outdamages a BT because it will basically make it into combat at full health 90% of the time. The best defense for our fragile melee daemon units is getting into combat reliably, which points reductions doesn't really address. For points reductions to matter, it'd have to be to the degree where you could take the big monster purely for it's tank potential, or in other words if its durability per point becomes efficient. Which is why points reductions are most effective on units like a GUO. The fly nerf REALLY hurts the BT too.
Oh well, this would still be better than the Wraithknight "buff" lol.
At 255 i will be running a double GUO list i reckon. Theyre hard to kill combined with the excellent strats, and i think they could work extremely well combined with a double gat knight
Again, simply because something is not as good as a blood letter bomb, does not deny it from being useful. At 150 points, the KoS has a distinctly useful profile. There isn't really a great common profile of gun to shoot it (las cannons don't love the invuln, you still need quite a few to take down that number of wounds, bolters in bunches aren't common, S3 fire hates T7, Plasma is alright, but still even money to wound and the invuln still matters).
It's fast threatening and, at 150 points, cheap. A distraction carnifex, plain and simple. GUO is certainly better, but is a lot more points. Even a DP is not an insignificant amount more points.
And 100 points off the wraithknight is the same principal; it makes it much better, probably even usable if not fully competitive. Almost no army has an entire list full of meta-defining units. Bringing units into the "solidly usable" while bringing down "meta-defining" is a good way to handle things.
Yeah I agree. There's a bunch of people on this thread myself included that tend to frame everything in terms of competitive play so that's where I'm coming from. Usable, if not quite competitive, is not a bad thing.
I can see your perspective as well. Daemons aren't competitive, so we need more things that fall into competitive. As someone who favors Slaanesh, 150 point KoS feels like a blessing because it makes ~ something ~ in slaanesh kind of worthwhile. Daemonettes are in a really rough place; they don't suck enough to be likely to go down to 6 (and I think GW likes the mono 7 theme) but they really have nothing to make them better or different than bloodletters. I think if quicksilver swiftness were changed to +3" movement instead of the current mechanic which basically does nothing, we'd see at least something for them.
If the Rumors prove true and the LoC is around 245-250, I'll be more than happy to bring 2-3 of them. I can only hope Kairos receive some additional love as well.
Realistically this has me excited to take the ol' Wizard boys off the shelf and maybe make up a real Tzeentch Brigade.
slave.entity wrote: Yeah I agree. There's a bunch of people on this thread myself included that tend to frame everything in terms of competitive play so that's where I'm coming from. Usable, if not quite competitive, is not a bad thing.
fact is.... in casual games no matter how much a unit cost or how it performs, is not a thing that one should care when play that kind of games, when you start talk about PERFORMANCES mean ur interested in something more, if not why care if a Bt cost 300+ points and do nothing? isn't a casual game for fun where you play what you like regardless of performances? here most state "im not a competitive player" but then bother why a model isn't point wise... no sense, when i play casual games i play what i like more not what perform better, if i love a model who care if it' worthless?
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drakerocket wrote: I can see your perspective as well. Daemons aren't competitive, so we need more things that fall into competitive. As someone who favors Slaanesh, 150 point KoS feels like a blessing because it makes ~ something ~ in slaanesh kind of worthwhile. Daemonettes are in a really rough place; they don't suck enough to be likely to go down to 6 (and I think GW likes the mono 7 theme) but they really have nothing to make them better or different than bloodletters. I think if quicksilver swiftness were changed to +3" movement instead of the current mechanic which basically does nothing, we'd see at least something for them.
oh they are just learn how play them...if you insist play slaanesh then is not demon problem is your... i play demons since the codex release (and i play ONLY demons in competitive) and i never made worse than 3rd place (and i play in ETC so not in my garage with my 10yo friends )with them so is not codex demon, is the player who need to find better list/learn how play them at best, of course they arent IG or eldar soup but they are competitive.
slave.entity wrote: Yeah I agree. There's a bunch of people on this thread myself included that tend to frame everything in terms of competitive play so that's where I'm coming from. Usable, if not quite competitive, is not a bad thing.
fact is.... in casual games no matter how much a unit cost or how it performs, is not a thing that one should care when play that kind of games, when you start talk about PERFORMANCES mean ur interested in something more, if not why care if a Bt cost 300+ points and do nothing? isn't a casual game for fun where you play what you like regardless of performances? here most state "im not a competitive player" but then bother why a model isn't point wise... no sense, when i play casual games i play what i like more not what perform better, if i love a model who care if it' worthless?
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drakerocket wrote: I can see your perspective as well. Daemons aren't competitive, so we need more things that fall into competitive. As someone who favors Slaanesh, 150 point KoS feels like a blessing because it makes ~ something ~ in slaanesh kind of worthwhile. Daemonettes are in a really rough place; they don't suck enough to be likely to go down to 6 (and I think GW likes the mono 7 theme) but they really have nothing to make them better or different than bloodletters. I think if quicksilver swiftness were changed to +3" movement instead of the current mechanic which basically does nothing, we'd see at least something for them.
oh they are just learn how play them...if you insist play slaanesh then is not demon problem is your... i play demons since the codex release (and i play ONLY demons in competitive) and i never made worse than 3rd place (and i play in ETC so not in my garage with my 10yo friends )with them so is not codex demon, is the player who need to find better list/learn how play them at best, of course they arent IG or eldar soup but they are competitive.
That's not how it works. Even in casual play you realize differences between units. There are hardly "unplayable" units in casual play and it's usually total nonsense when people on dakka rate sth. as unplayable (aside from Titans and that suff that literally is "unplayable" in the usual 2000points games). And you can also see in casual play that some things work better than others. Yes, I do bring my plague hulk but when I do I know I have to bring something else that counters the fact that the Hulk is overcosted and won't do much in the game but soak damage like a boss. And a casual player also doesn't want his beloved units to "not do anything" in the game. Though usually that doesn't happen in casual play. If you follow dakka, everyone brings the shootiest list with guard/eldar/knights/Cpt. smash at the same time and will kill half your army in the first round if you bring just one unit that is not considered omg op. I don't know how that even works but that's what the tournament brigade describes. Either way "learn to play" is not a useful argument. I could tell everyone on dakka who says Plague Marines are too expensive "learn to play, I'm always winning with them, they're my best troop choice by far", but obviousely metas differ. Someone who plays ITC or ETC uses a specific kind of houserules for example that can drastically change the outcome.
You're engaging in futility. I stopped bothering with this thread months ago due to "contributions".
At least Rdv1 is objectively intelligent, even if he doesn't recognize the tone of his responses, but you're legitimately not going to gain substance there.
learn play is basic, you can play the best list ever and still be get your nuts kicked, or you can play a good list but skilled playing it and you seriously kick butts.
@Cephalobeard: if you dont bother since months about this thread wonder why you still posting here... stop do it and dont read if you find contributions are poor dont you think?Thank you.
I bring here my direct experience about competitve demon lists/play., i dont care of casual i always said that, im sorry if they destroyed your Tz demons playability.
Zid wrote: At 255 i will be running a double GUO list i reckon. Theyre hard to kill combined with the excellent strats, and i think they could work extremely well combined with a double gat knight
I'm interested in this too...
What does it mean "base cost"?
And what about Rotigus?
Would Daemonettes be too good at 6pts ? because at 7pts they have absolutely no hope of competing with Bloodletters in a none mono themed list.
Though perhaps the daemon of slaanesh trait doesn't help I've had games where it does absolutely nothing. (i'm not that good i don't really play at a high level so if i'm wrong about this please let me know)
Zid wrote: At 255 i will be running a double GUO list i reckon. Theyre hard to kill combined with the excellent strats, and i think they could work extremely well combined with a double gat knight
I'm interested in this too...
What does it mean "base cost"?
And what about Rotigus?
I would assume that Rotigus would then be 260 pts, but it is hard to say. The rumors claim that all named characters are getting a bit drop in points, but to be fair, Rotigus brings a lot to the table than a GUO for only 5 more points currently.
Rydria wrote: Would Daemonettes be too good at 6pts ? because at 7pts they have absolutely no hope of competing with Bloodletters in a none mono themed list.
Though perhaps the daemon of slaanesh trait doesn't help I've had games where it does absolutely nothing. (i'm not that good i don't really play at a high level so if i'm wrong about this please let me know)
6 points would be a large decrease. Mostly because it is a horde unit, so that would be 90 points or so back in a list which is not a small amount.
Wyches are a good comparison to Nettes in terms of stats and Wyches are 8. For 1 point less, Nettes have a 5++ all the time and 3 (full unit) attacks with -1 (or -4) AP. So I think 7 is about right for them.
The Slaanesh trait is very good but harder to use because demons are all melee. So positioning of your heroes is paramount but I find it is much easier to use the locus aura's if you run Heralds on steeds.
On topic:
Keepers going to 150 has me shouting to the clouds for joy. Decreases to Seekers and Fiends would be amazing to finish off a points reduction cake from CA. And if the Harp chick is good, that will be the icing on a very nice Slaanesh December.
Rydria wrote: Would Daemonettes be too good at 6pts ? because at 7pts they have absolutely no hope of competing with Bloodletters in a none mono themed list.
Though perhaps the daemon of slaanesh trait doesn't help I've had games where it does absolutely nothing. (i'm not that good i don't really play at a high level so if i'm wrong about this please let me know)
6 points would be a large decrease. Mostly because it is a horde unit, so that would be 90 points or so back in a list which is not a small amount.
Wyches are a good comparison to Nettes in terms of stats and Wyches are 8. For 1 point less, Nettes have a 5++ all the time and 3 (full unit) attacks with -1 (or -4) AP. So I think 7 is about right for them.
The Slaanesh trait is very good but harder to use because demons are all melee. So positioning of your heroes is paramount but I find it is much easier to use the locus aura's if you run Heralds on steeds.
On topic:
Keepers going to 150 has me shouting to the clouds for joy. Decreases to Seekers and Fiends would be amazing to finish off a points reduction cake from CA. And if the Harp chick is good, that will be the icing on a very nice Slaanesh December.
the strenght of letters is the icon (let them charge the AiP turn) ap-3 weapon and stratagem which make them swing twice, going to hurt anything, demonettes cant cost as letters, to be competitive they should cost less.
Souleater wrote:Looking to start a dual 40k and AoS Daemon host of Khorne and Slaanesh.
(Numerous Aelves and a resurgence of GK on the cards)
Obviously I am looking to pick up two Wrath and Rapture boxes as the core of my forces, but would it be worth also grabbing a SC! of each of those gods?
Cheers.
I can't speak for the Khorne SC! box, but the Slaanesh SC! box is crazy good value. If you build two Chariots/Hellflayers instead of the Exalted Chariot you can also build two Heralds on foot. Buying those contents separately would cost nearly double the amount the SC! box retails at, based on GW prices in Canada, and you'd have monopose Heralds.
Rather than Daemonettes going down, Bloodlettters need to go up. IMO.
demonettes will still be crap compared to letters also if they would cost 2pts more, demonettes must start on the table and that's a big issues, they dont have reliable way to get into melee the turn they Ds so they will die quick with that r3 e 5++ save, then you need 6's to wound with anything in 3+ or better armor. I love demonettes but they really need lot and lot of re work to be good.
Zid wrote: At 255 i will be running a double GUO list i reckon. Theyre hard to kill combined with the excellent strats, and i think they could work extremely well combined with a double gat knight
I'm interested in this too...
What does it mean "base cost"?
And what about Rotigus?
I would assume that Rotigus would then be 260 pts, but it is hard to say. The rumors claim that all named characters are getting a bit drop in points, but to be fair, Rotigus brings a lot to the table than a GUO for only 5 more points currently.
Base cost is the cost of the model without weapons. In the guos case, all weapons are free, so 255 points... really damn good.
Rotigus has a few unique bonuses, but nothing to write home about tbh. But who knows... have to see how this all shakes out. Its pretty exciting!
Rather than Daemonettes going down, Bloodlettters need to go up. IMO.
demonettes will still be crap compared to letters also if they would cost 2pts more, demonettes must start on the table and that's a big issues, they dont have reliable way to get into melee the turn they Ds so they will die quick with that r3 e 5++ save, then you need 6's to wound with anything in 3+ or better armor. I love demonettes but they really need lot and lot of re work to be good.
what would be really nice is making Delightful agonies a 5++ like it is for CSM, That one change would make daemonettes so much better
demonettes suck in this edition because they are slow. My IG infantry can run circles around them. An equivalent to the MMM order would make the competitive again. Maybe a 1CP stratagem that allows 3 units to MMM. It won't directly get them into combat but it could get them into ideal positions out of LOS. That or maybe give that ability to units under size 20. The spirit of that unit is being fast and maneuverable which they just don't have in this edition.
Zid wrote: At 255 i will be running a double GUO list i reckon. Theyre hard to kill combined with the excellent strats, and i think they could work extremely well combined with a double gat knight
I'm interested in this too...
What does it mean "base cost"?
And what about Rotigus?
I would assume that Rotigus would then be 260 pts, but it is hard to say. The rumors claim that all named characters are getting a bit drop in points, but to be fair, Rotigus brings a lot to the table than a GUO for only 5 more points currently.
Base cost is the cost of the model without weapons. In the guos case, all weapons are free, so 255 points... really damn good.
Rotigus has a few unique bonuses, but nothing to write home about tbh. But who knows... have to see how this all shakes out. Its pretty exciting!
255 pt GUOs makes me very excited. I usually have a list with 2 in them and with that price drop it means I can basically add a free unit already without factoring in any other price drops across the army
@Excommunicatus: Cheers. Might have to wrestle with the exalt3d chariot, though. I sèe the sense in what you are saying...but the pimped chariot looks too awesome.
Another topic, we have a couple of Grey Knights players at the local club. Tips or tricks against them?
Souleater wrote: @Excommunicatus: Cheers. Might have to wrestle with the exalt3d chariot, though. I sèe the sense in what you are saying...but the pimped chariot looks too awesome.
Another topic, we have a couple of Grey Knights players at the local club. Tips or tricks against them?
use the free unit strategem when they inevitably wipe your lesser daemons
Rydria wrote: Would Daemonettes be too good at 6pts ? because at 7pts they have absolutely no hope of competing with Bloodletters in a none mono themed list.
Though perhaps the daemon of slaanesh trait doesn't help I've had games where it does absolutely nothing. (i'm not that good i don't really play at a high level so if i'm wrong about this please let me know)
If you look at the raw damage and literally nothing else? Absolutely they aren't good at 7. But the fact is they have more than that. Their ability to advance freely allows them to be far more mobile once they hit the ground, heck most of the time you don't even need to deepstrike them to get a good charge off, since they can cross the board so effectively in one turn.
Excommunicatus wrote: I almost never start my Daemonettes on the board, what on Earth are you talking about?
yes and every charge you fail after a ds mean a demonette unit dead anyway dont see much difference, nettes seldom get into decent CaC unless you play against a monkey, that s the problem.
Rather than Daemonettes going down, Bloodlettters need to go up. IMO.
demonettes will still be crap compared to letters also if they would cost 2pts more, demonettes must start on the table and that's a big issues, they dont have reliable way to get into melee the turn they Ds so they will die quick with that r3 e 5++ save, then you need 6's to wound with anything in 3+ or better armor. I love demonettes but they really need lot and lot of re work to be good.
what would be really nice is making Delightful agonies a 5++ like it is for CSM, That one change would make daemonettes so much better
to just one unit, so the opponent focus on the others and erase them anyway, i doubt you play only 1 single nettes unit.
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schadenfreude wrote: demonettes suck in this edition because they are slow. My IG infantry can run circles around them. An equivalent to the MMM order would make the competitive again. Maybe a 1CP stratagem that allows 3 units to MMM. It won't directly get them into combat but it could get them into ideal positions out of LOS. That or maybe give that ability to units under size 20. The spirit of that unit is being fast and maneuverable which they just don't have in this edition.
they lack speed and a survivalbility to reach melee or at least exert board control as Pb's do
Yea if they had speed they would have some survivability by using LOS blocking terrain.
One potentially good thing I saw for Slaanesh is KOS is down to 150 points. That might synergize well with fiends and chariots and weaponsgood at killing them could become over saturated with targets.,
Excommunicatus wrote: Ah. I see. They're bad 'cause you say so and if anyone disagrees they're dismissed because they only play bad players.
Read Kant.
show me a Slaanesh list did good at major tournament and i will officially apologize and stop bother anyone.
PS: i repeat when i talk about something i take into account ONLY competitive play, so dont start with "i play with friend with xyz random Slaanesh lists and often win" because is not what im talking about, thx.
I don't understand the deamonette hate here, they have a different roll than bloodletters all together in my lists. Bloodletters are for bombing the opponent. Demonettes are for starting on the field near hqs with the loci. My typical list has
3 x 10 demonettes
2 x heralds on steeds
20-30 bloodletters
1 dp of khorne
20 pink horrors
Slaanesh is its own detachment, i find khorne and tzeentch loci not an absolute must like slaanesh. That makes these ladies/things incredibly fast and mobile. I wish i had more demonettes, i would quite easily run 60 if i had them. Demonettes cover the field. Everything else bombs in. Works well enough in local tournaments for me anyways.
Thoughts on Lord of Change points update? The inability to make the LoC 2++ basically took it off the table in any competitive sense in a meta where you will always eat a volcano lance turn 1. However at 50 points cheaper it isnt' quite as devestating to lose. 270 points, lets assume investment into the robe, puts it at a 3++ on 16 wounds. Even dropping WL trait the 2 casts at 2+ (at full spec) and the ability to be a damage sink might be appealing? I feel the inability to go to 2++ also helps as there isn't a feeling of obligation of blowing a 3CP Warpsurge on the model and makes it more balanced...
If you aren't playing against knights every game or a shadowsword - it might actually live past turn one and be fieldable? Still doesn't seem "tier 1" but maybe there is a place?
P.S. I realize Kairos is cheaper as well and points total on par with LoC but can't really buy-in to the fact he is stuck at a 4++ which is just very instagibbable...
orkswubwub wrote: Thoughts on Lord of Change points update? The inability to make the LoC 2++ basically took it off the table in any competitive sense in a meta where you will always eat a volcano lance turn 1. However at 50 points cheaper it isnt' quite as devestating to lose. 270 points, lets assume investment into the robe, puts it at a 3++ on 16 wounds. Even dropping WL trait the 2 casts at 2+ (at full spec) and the ability to be a damage sink might be appealing? I feel the inability to go to 2++ also helps as there isn't a feeling of obligation of blowing a 3CP Warpsurge on the model and makes it more balanced...
If you aren't playing against knights every game or a shadowsword - it might actually live past turn one and be fieldable? Still doesn't seem "tier 1" but maybe there is a place?
P.S. I realize Kairos is cheaper as well and points total on par with LoC but can't really buy-in to the fact he is stuck at a 4++ which is just very instagibbable...
explain me what you can put on the table for those 50 saved points... i guess nothing so why now he should be so playable? because when you lost it turn 1 you lost 50 less points? so again how you can invest in those 50pts?
orkswubwub wrote: Thoughts on Lord of Change points update? The inability to make the LoC 2++ basically took it off the table in any competitive sense in a meta where you will always eat a volcano lance turn 1. However at 50 points cheaper it isnt' quite as devestating to lose. 270 points, lets assume investment into the robe, puts it at a 3++ on 16 wounds. Even dropping WL trait the 2 casts at 2+ (at full spec) and the ability to be a damage sink might be appealing? I feel the inability to go to 2++ also helps as there isn't a feeling of obligation of blowing a 3CP Warpsurge on the model and makes it more balanced...
If you aren't playing against knights every game or a shadowsword - it might actually live past turn one and be fieldable? Still doesn't seem "tier 1" but maybe there is a place?
P.S. I realize Kairos is cheaper as well and points total on par with LoC but can't really buy-in to the fact he is stuck at a 4++ which is just very instagibbable...
These minor points changes to big monster type units won't affect competitive play much, if at all. Same goes for stuff like some of the big Tyranid monsters and things like Wraithlords and Wraithknights. The points decreases will help in casual play where people don't consistently bring enough damage to take these things down. But against comp lists a slightly cheaper LoC or Bloodthirster or Wraithknight is really just a slightly less of a waste of points. Most or all of the units in the 'big, overcosted monster' category have the primary issue of not being able to consistently deliver their payloads before they die. Doesn't matter if it's 100 points cheaper, it still dies on T1 or T2 at the latest before it gets a chance to really do anything. Which means from a competitive standpoint literally any other meta unit is a better value for points.
For casual play the points decreases help. Competitive, not so much.
Btw, you didn't need a Shadowsword or knight to kill a post-nerf LoC. It dies effortlessly to non-meta stuff too like a unit or two of double-shooting obliterators. That's practically a guaranteed kill for basically no risk. At best the LoC gets off 4 spells and soaks up some S8 shooting before it dies. Not a great way to spend hundreds of points. 30 Plaguebearers and a poxbringer will soak up a lot more damage and have far more impact over the course of the game than that.
I think they are still too expensive at 42pts unless they received a stat buff in wrath and rapture.
Fiends are still too expensive for how fragile they are. But I'm still hopeful that they'll get a buffed stat line with the new box set. They're so large now that they should be T5 and S5.
I think they are still too expensive at 42pts unless they received a stat buff in wrath and rapture.
Fiends are still too expensive for how fragile they are. But I'm still hopeful that they'll get a buffed stat line with the new box set. They're so large now that they should be T5 and S5.
yeah aren't they almost as big as a daemon prince now ?
I remember in the 4th edition codex, where they where strength 5 with 5 attacks and 1 of them could be upgraded to have strength 6, I wish they where like that again.
Assuming fiends are unchanged they are the only thing i'm not particularly hyped for, i'm really happy at the massive point decreases across the board for everything else, just goes to show how over costed the slaanesh army was, from the index to now Daemonettes have had a 50% point decrease in total that in bonkers for a horde unit.
Edit: Fiends got changed they gained +1 wound....
Automatically Appended Next Post: https://imgur.com/a/aRfopFv
orkswubwub wrote: Thoughts on Lord of Change points update? The inability to make the LoC 2++ basically took it off the table in any competitive sense in a meta where you will always eat a volcano lance turn 1. However at 50 points cheaper it isnt' quite as devestating to lose. 270 points, lets assume investment into the robe, puts it at a 3++ on 16 wounds. Even dropping WL trait the 2 casts at 2+ (at full spec) and the ability to be a damage sink might be appealing? I feel the inability to go to 2++ also helps as there isn't a feeling of obligation of blowing a 3CP Warpsurge on the model and makes it more balanced...
If you aren't playing against knights every game or a shadowsword - it might actually live past turn one and be fieldable? Still doesn't seem "tier 1" but maybe there is a place?
P.S. I realize Kairos is cheaper as well and points total on par with LoC but can't really buy-in to the fact he is stuck at a 4++ which is just very instagibbable...
These minor points changes to big monster type units won't affect competitive play much, if at all. Same goes for stuff like some of the big Tyranid monsters and things like Wraithlords and Wraithknights. The points decreases will help in casual play where people don't consistently bring enough damage to take these things down. But against comp lists a slightly cheaper LoC or Bloodthirster or Wraithknight is really just a slightly less of a waste of points. Most or all of the units in the 'big, overcosted monster' category have the primary issue of not being able to consistently deliver their payloads before they die. Doesn't matter if it's 100 points cheaper, it still dies on T1 or T2 at the latest before it gets a chance to really do anything. Which means from a competitive standpoint literally any other meta unit is a better value for points.
For casual play the points decreases help. Competitive, not so much.
Btw, you didn't need a Shadowsword or knight to kill a post-nerf LoC. It dies effortlessly to non-meta stuff too like a unit or two of double-shooting obliterators. That's practically a guaranteed kill for basically no risk. At best the LoC gets off 4 spells and soaks up some S8 shooting before it dies. Not a great way to spend hundreds of points. 30 Plaguebearers and a poxbringer will soak up a lot more damage and have far more impact over the course of the game than that.
100% agree, 50pts means nothing problem is not the unit itself is the state of game now, heavy savage shooting cant make room for a model cant hide and it is easily targettable, i play actually a list without one single targettable multi wound model (only 2 Dp's and 4 heralds) the rest only plaguebearers and letters, unless i face very heavy anti infantry lists usually i win without much troubles, then of course player make the difference but this is not the edition of big bad guys, beside few units (ie Ik's). imho.
I think they are still too expensive at 42pts unless they received a stat buff in wrath and rapture.
Fiends are still too expensive for how fragile they are. But I'm still hopeful that they'll get a buffed stat line with the new box set. They're so large now that they should be T5 and S5.
yeah aren't they almost as big as a daemon prince now ?
I remember in the 4th edition codex, where they where strength 5 with 5 attacks and 1 of them could be upgraded to have strength 6, I wish they where like that again.
Assuming fiends are unchanged they are the only thing i'm not particularly hyped for, i'm really happy at the massive point decreases across the board for everything else, just goes to show how over costed the slaanesh army was, from the index to now Daemonettes have had a 50% point decrease in total that in bonkers for a horde unit.
Edit: Fiends got changed they gained +1 wound....
Automatically Appended Next Post: https://imgur.com/a/aRfopFv
Well Damn. There's now there's no chance that they'll be getting better rules outside of a new codex. So GW made them bigger, making it harder to get out of LOS; but gave them +1 wound to compensate and a 4 pt discount to compensate for the increased number of shots they'll be taking. Seriously, the new model is more than twice the height of a non-Primaris space marine; but the same S4/T4? I can't say I'm disappointed I was expecting worse.
On the 4th edition codex S5 with 5 attacks wasn't even the best part about Fiends back then. Rending was on a 6 to hit, Fleet allowed re-rolling one or more Run and Charge dice, always hit first no matter, and they had Hit and Run to leave combat during the opponents turn. Excessive and Glorious! That codex also had the best chariots. Plus Heralds Chariots, Daemon Princes, and the KOS could all pay 10-20 pts Hit & Run to Fallback in your opponent's turn at the end of combat and entirely avoid the shooting phase. My Dance of Death army was 2 Keepers, 3 Daemon Princes, and 3X units of six Fiends pin balling around the board. Good times.
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Rydria wrote: Thoughts on the slaanesh units with the substantial point reductions across the board ?
I really like the chariots going down by 20pts, perhaps it is possible to actually do a decent horde slaanesh list now or is it still too slow ?
It really depends on the units your taking really and how competitive you are. I'm currently running 60 Daemonettes so the new price nets me an additional 10 models; so not much of a horde. But I am looking forward to running all the chariots I bought for the Grand Cavalcade detachment, again. Will they be good? No, but it'll be a good time. Is the KOS worth it now? Nope, but now I can run them in addition to the more viable units. I have three custom Soul-grinders that will actually see play again. I don't believe that the points change will make Mono-Slaanesh more competitive, we'll just have more of what we already had; and maybe some of the worst units will see play now. The loss of Fleet, the +3" run, and the loss of initiative really hurt Slaanesh this edition.
Looks like our competitive troop spam list will still be very meta. I'm all for continuing to indulge in the daemonic hordes
Plague drones are slightly nerfed but practically speaking they're in the same spot as before.
Changecasters got a nice 13 pt point decrease. Not sure why as they were already great.
Exalted flamers got a huge points decrease which is great for casual.
GUO's with bileblade/sword at 275 is a nice buff. At that price it still competes with the cheaper 30x plaguebearer squad with nearly double the wounds, more damage, and obsec. GUO still pays a pretty big premium for less wounds, T7, and some psychic. But with bilepiper and tree synergy it could be a fun alternate pick that's approaching competitive. If only they made it T8.
Furies still suck despite 20% discount.
Skullmaster for 10 pts less is kinda fun.
Hellflayer at 70 pts is huge for Slaanesh lists. It's potentially an absurd number of CC attacks if you can make it into combat with a nearby herald. Same with 50pt Seeker Chariots.
The other greater daemons are nicer for casual, still not competitive.
Competitive lists are unaffected.
*EDIT* I initially underestimated how much the savings stacked up for mono Slaanesh lists. Easily the biggest winners here with ~300 points savings across the board. Could this impact the competitive meta?
That's pretty impressive savings. What does the list look like?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to be clear, comparing the points saved to a unit of Nurglings wasn't meant to be dismissive. Nurglings are literally one of the best, most competitive units in the whole meta. An extra unit of 6-9 Nurglings is huge. Like, game-winningly huge. Not sure how you read that as dismissive.
60 Daemonettes (-60pts), eighteen Seekers (-72pts), six Chariots (-69pts for three Hellflayers, - 40pts for two Seeker Chariots), six Heralds (-18pts for the three on foot), six Fiends (-24pts) for a grand total of -283pts.
It's not that I thought you were being dismissive of Nurglings, rather that you were underselling the points savings. A unit of Nurglings is what, 50pts?
Very nice. Yeah, like I mentioned in my post the points savings on Hellflayers and Seeker Chariots is crazy for Slaanesh lists.
The 1-point drop on daemonettes is also nice when you're running that many daemonettes. I suppose I wasn't considering how much the savings stack up for mono-Slaanesh daemons.
BTW, a max unit of 9 nurglings is a very solid, difficult-to-dislodge, back field infiltrator for ~150 points. I wasn't that far off
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oof, fair enough. Looks like mono-Slaanesh daemons are the big winners here with ~300 point savings across the board.
Yeah it feels like it can do an actual viable horde style list now that list i posted (incomplete) has 166 bodies and isn’t even at 1500pts yet everything with a 5++.
I’m thinking of running them in min sized units of 10 for target saturation,
I'd need another HS option to run a Brigade; maybe I'll demote my Herald on Chariot to just a Chariot and get another Herald on Seeker to replace her, or maybe the Masque.
Sounds like pretty good results. I'm guessing this is at your local game store or friend circle?
I'm reaching a point at my local shop where the lists I'm bringing are often way too OP for what most people seem to be able to handle for pick up games. Probably due to a lot of the advice in this thread. Which factions do you find produce the most fun match-ups with your list?
Bummer dude. Sounds like at least you're getting some games in.
At my store we typically put up LFG posts on our FB group for scheduling games every Thursday on game night or on the weekends. Problem is, after some heavy optimization over the past few months, most games I show up to now against randos end up incredibly one-sided, even if I say things in my post like "bring maximum competitive cheese." I've resorted to comparing our lists beforehand to get a better sense of how competitive their collections are and then making list edits to ensure a more interesting experience for both of us. Stomping too many collections of 'the models I have' gets old real fast...
slave.entity wrote: Bummer dude. Sounds like at least you're getting some games in.
At my store we typically put up LFG posts on our FB group for scheduling games every Thursday on game night or on the weekends. Problem is, after some heavy optimization over the past few months, most games I show up to now against randos end up incredibly one-sided, even if I say things in my post like "bring maximum competitive cheese." I've resorted to comparing our lists beforehand to get a better sense of how competitive their collections are and then making list edits to ensure a more interesting experience for both of us. Stomping too many collections of 'the models I have' gets old real fast...
Honestly... I’d transition to running fluffy lists for pick up games. Save the cheese for a tournament if you really wanna play that way. Then you can have beatmof both worlds and make friends! We have a dude in our group who says he’s a narrative player but always brings Super cheesy unfluffy lists. Then just complains about averages when stuff happens. We’ve kind of ghosted him because he’s so annoying, we just wanna have fun during pick up games.
Not saying you’re like that. Just saying that’s how I view pick up games unless it’s practice or something.
I have to spend a small fortune on Ontario and New York Bar exams over the next year or so, so I moved out of the city and to the sticks near the border, which means a four hour trip to the nearest LGS in the same country, which means I haven't played a physical game for a while.
There were a few guys there who were clueless/oblivious/didn't care and a few who were super-competitive. Most of everyone else fell somewhere in the middle.
FWIW, none of what I've said here is designed to give the impression that I'm the tabletop Konstantin Konstantinovich Rokossovsky ('cause I'm clearly not) nor that the relative power of a unit is irrelevant. It simply irks me massively when an 'analysis' consists of a comparison of what the unit can kill and what it can withstand in the context of a game played with little to no LOS-blocking terrain, or little terrain at all, as if that was the only way anybody ever plays and not an extreme niche that represents a few very loud people.
Set up a board properly with the one or two pieces of terrain per 2'x2' square that the rulebook recommends and you'll rarely have a hard time getting cover for your Daemonettes.
Yeah there are clearly a few very different styles to approaching the hobby and it's not always easy to distinguish who likes what. But for pick up games, as I'm starting to realize recently, having a fluffy list ready for the average 40k player at my store is probably a good idea. But on the flip side, every once in a while I'll get matched up with another hyper competitive player and it feels really bad to auto-lose in a scenario that could have been easily preventable.
I mean, I could just start bringing BOTH armies to the store and see what they show up with when I get there. As daemons players though, you guys probably know what a pain in the ass that would be. The best solution I got right now is to ask a few questions before we meet and discuss level of competitiveness and hopefully we arrive at a similar ballpark. Barring that, I'll just send them my lists. For real competitive players, it doesn't matter if they know what I'm bringing anyway since their list would theoretically be optimized to handle anything in the meta.
I have a bag from Battlefoam that holds 21" of foam so my entire collection goes with me to the FLGS every time anyway.
Perhaps this is considered list-tailoring, but what I tend to do is I have three or four different lists written out beforehand and then I decide which one I'm going to put on the table after I have an idea what I'll be facing.
I do this so that I can ramp up or down the power-level depending on what the other person brings, so if we talk and they say they've brought a fluffy list for a lark, I'll run my list with Zarakynel in it, for example, and my battle-plan will be largely "run at it, shouting".
That works too. I wish I could easily fit everything into one container but unfortunately for me my collection is approaching 700 models with a lot of them being those ridiculously spindly Tzeentchy boys whose fingers don't do so well going in and out of battlefoam all the time. Magnetizing them for transport in baking trays is how I usually bring ~130ish model lists to the store, with the LoC/Sicaran/Decimators/Gnarlmaw/Plague Drones/other huge awkward spindly thing sitting bubbled wrapped in a piece of tupperware.
Daemonettes are all claws and spikey hair, I haven't tried the magnet trick but I find that if you get trays big enough for them to stand in and exercise a reasonable degree of carefulness it works out alright.
But there's a reason my bag has a pocket for glue, you know?
From what I could make out on the YouTube reviews, Fiends are now +1 attack with a free champion, Flesh Hounds have a champion option that costs 7 points and just shoots one bolter shot at 8" that hits automatically (lol), and Bloodcrushers get +1 wound each.
Virules wrote: From what I could make out on the YouTube reviews, Fiends are now +1 attack with a free champion, Flesh Hounds have a champion option that costs 7 points and just shoots one bolter shot at 8" that hits automatically (lol), and Bloodcrushers get +1 wound each.
Horrors also have a new data sheet apparently(?) Any info?
BoomWolf wrote: Anyone managed to see what's new with bloodcrushers?
They got a new slate, stand to reason SOMETHING changed. (still probably trash though)
70 point exalted flamers though, heck yea.
I overlooked that... heck yeah indeed! Also Skullcannons went to 90 points 0.o I've been tempted to run some, at 90 points... may be well worth it!
Unit1126PLL wrote: Are fiends worth it yet? Have a whole collection of convertible models ready to go, for my specific brand of fiend.
Also is the new model on 40mm base?
Maybe as 1 of deep strikers to try and have them tie up a shooting squads ?
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Virules wrote: From what I could make out on the YouTube reviews, Fiends are now +1 attack with a free champion, Flesh Hounds have a champion option that costs 7 points and just shoots one bolter shot at 8" that hits automatically (lol), and Bloodcrushers get +1 wound each.
Virules wrote: From what I could make out on the YouTube reviews, Fiends are now +1 attack with a free champion, Flesh Hounds have a champion option that costs 7 points and just shoots one bolter shot at 8" that hits automatically (lol), and Bloodcrushers get +1 wound each.
but that dont come from CA but by a new expansion vigilus defiant to see how anything works there, it works for "specialist" detachments
Horrors also have a new data sheet apparently(?) Any info?
It looks like it's just a reprint that updates the old datasheets from the Thousand Sons/CSM Codexes to match the new one from the Daemons codex. Seems like a lot of the "new" datasheets and points values are reprints of units that were updated in a newer book or FAQ this year.
Rydria wrote: I wonder what the Infernal harpist does now, I wonder if she is a generic HQ or a new special character.
I would assume "generic HQ" in the mold of the various Nurgle heralds.
Well it turns out she is a generic herald type: "...the Infernal Enrapturess – a new kind of Slaaneshi herald who bolsters summoning and shreds enemy units with sonic waves."
Since summoning is trash she have to do a lot to make it good. I do like that she have a "sonic" weapon though.
Rumours of their uselessness have been greatly exaggerated.
They've never been useless but they're are still over-costed. But it hardly matter now with so many other points drops to make taking them in a list easier.
So what are people’s thoughts on GD spam? I honestly thought choices like Rotigus where borderline competitive even before the changes, so I’m thinking they will be very viable. Maybe pure great unclean ones will be the best option, but some of those other GD look quite juicy as Well. Honestly very pleased with chapter approved expect for the nerfs to plague drones. I guess they where just too good for this world .
I’ve recently gotten back into the hobby and have started building my Tzeentch daemons army. A couple of mates and I are looking to start off with a few small games and grow our armies from there. Totally new to 8th, last time I played a game was 3rd. I’ve done a bit of reading of the core rules and the daemons codes, but still not sure I have my head around everything.
For the first 250 points, I’m thinking something along these lines. Since I’m building as I go, I’d like to have an idea of whic models I’ll be using from the start, so if you guys have any suggestions I’d love to hear them.
Changecaster 65
10 x Pinks 70
10 x Brims 30
6 x Flamers 84
For a grand total of 249. Stick the herald with either horrors or flamers for the Strength buff. Not sure if Brims are worth it with nothing to screen but not sure how else to use the points.
Other options I guess would be to take an Exalted Flamer over the unit of regular flamers to utilise the brim screen, and throw a few more horrors in with the extra points, or to just take two bigger blobs of horrors for three smites.
Other likely armies are orks, nids, and either guard or tau. I’ll reassess after playing a few games, but at this stage for 500 points I’m thinking the Changecaster, 2 x 20 pink blobs, 1 x 10 brims, the flamers, an exalted Flamer, and 4 screamers, with 18 points to play with - more Brims, maybe a staff of change for the herald.
Not sure I understand the deep strike rules/benefits so I might be missing something important there. Any general tactical advice or unit choice suggestions are very welcome!
Changecasters and pinks are very good. Everything else is solid. After Chapter Approved 2018 comes out next week you'll have some extra points to play with as changecasters and exalted flamers are getting pretty considerable points reductions. Looks like a lot of fun for a 500 point list.
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Salt donkey wrote: So what are people’s thoughts on GD spam? I honestly thought choices like Rotigus where borderline competitive even before the changes, so I’m thinking they will be very viable. Maybe pure great unclean ones will be the best option, but some of those other GD look quite juicy as Well. Honestly very pleased with chapter approved expect for the nerfs to plague drones. I guess they where just too good for this world .
With the points drops, GD spam probably won't win tournaments (except maybeGUO's according to some here) but for pickup games they should be a lot of fun to play. I'm personally looking forward to fielding Kairos a lot more.
I've seen blurry images of the new bloodcrusher datasheet, but does anyone know what actually changed? As far as I know, it got +1 toughness and wounds.
vaklor4 wrote: I've seen blurry images of the new bloodcrusher datasheet, but does anyone know what actually changed? As far as I know, it got +1 toughness and wounds.
vaklor4 wrote: I've seen blurry images of the new bloodcrusher datasheet, but does anyone know what actually changed? As far as I know, it got +1 toughness and wounds.
Just +1 wound I think
Thank god. If they were T5, Plague Drones would be basically obsolete.
Rydria wrote: I wonder what the Infernal harpist does now, I wonder if she is a generic HQ or a new special character.
I would assume "generic HQ" in the mold of the various Nurgle heralds.
Well it turns out she is a generic herald type: "...the Infernal Enrapturess – a new kind of Slaaneshi herald who bolsters summoning and shreds enemy units with sonic waves."
Since summoning is trash she have to do a lot to make it good. I do like that she have a "sonic" weapon though.
Rumours of their uselessness have been greatly exaggerated.
They've never been useless but they're are still over-costed. But it hardly matter now with so many other points drops to make taking them in a list easier.
It be super cool if we got ranged daemonettes armed with various musical instruments as a unit. To go with this new herald.
vaklor4 wrote: I've seen blurry images of the new bloodcrusher datasheet, but does anyone know what actually changed? As far as I know, it got +1 toughness and wounds.
Just +1 wound I think
Thank god. If they were T5, Plague Drones would be basically obsolete.
Would they? Plague Drones have fly, FNP, faster movement and different weapons. If all Crushers get is +1 wound, then it won't help them in the least from still being garbage compared to Bloodletters in every way.
Salt donkey wrote: So what are people’s thoughts on GD spam? I honestly thought choices like Rotigus where borderline competitive even before the changes, so I’m thinking they will be very viable. Maybe pure great unclean ones will be the best option, but some of those other GD look quite juicy as Well. Honestly very pleased with chapter approved expect for the nerfs to plague drones. I guess they where just too good for this world .
I've got +20 plague drones... really, they are fun to run, and fun to spam, but they are not the end all of this galaxy. I'll still run my +20 drone list from time to time, but it's not like they needed the nerf. I'll just bring one less nurgling unit I guess.
incarna wrote: I apologize if this isn't the right place for this... but it does dovetail off of the GD spam being discussed.
Does Rotigus count as a GUO regarding the rule of 3?
So, could we in theory run 3 GOU + Rotigus?
Rule of 3 is for data sheets. Rotigus is his own datasheet, so you are 100% ok with 4* guo. It's how daemon prince spam happens. 3 Death guard, 3 Chaos daemon, 3 CSM and 3 1ksons, because they all have different names and slightly different rules.
dan2026 wrote: Not sure I see how GUO spam will be effective.
Unless someone has a secret strategy that I am unaware of.
I was a tournament player roughly 10+ years ago, and just getting back into the hobby again. I know this is a tactics thread, so again I apologize if this isn’t the right place, but my strategy is to fill out a 2k army list as quickly as possible, learn from experience, and then get back into tournament play. GD spam seems like the best way to do that, and I can gradually cut and paste over time as I work towards a more ideal list.
My first list had 9 Beasts of Nurgle, but when I went to my LGS and saw they $40 price tag for what I perceived to be a bad unit, I cut them.
Out of curiosity, at about $1.10-per-point, are Beasts of Nurge the most costly-per-point unit in 40k?
With the new point costs, is it legitimately possible to just do a cavalcade of chariots? Obviously cheap ‘Nette units for troops, but a couple heralds on chariots (from index, obviously, since they were pulled from the book), three seeker chariots, three exalted chariots, three hellflayers, and maybe a couple scary Daemon Princes/Keepers of Secrets. I’ll do points on Saturday, but it seems like a lot of big targets that’ll hit hard.
Bloodmaster: The Crimson Crown
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
Daemon Prince of Chaos: Khorne, Skullreaver
With the new points, assuming I didn't make any major math mistakes should be 2000 on the nose. Will probably swap the crushers for hounds once the models come out. Might not be super competitive, but for pickup games and stuff with friends it doesn't seem too terrible.
Rydria wrote: I wonder what the Infernal harpist does now, I wonder if she is a generic HQ or a new special character.
I would assume "generic HQ" in the mold of the various Nurgle heralds.
Well it turns out she is a generic herald type: "...the Infernal Enrapturess – a new kind of Slaaneshi herald who bolsters summoning and shreds enemy units with sonic waves."
Since summoning is trash she have to do a lot to make it good. I do like that she have a "sonic" weapon though.
Rumours of their uselessness have been greatly exaggerated.
They've never been useless but they're are still over-costed. But it hardly matter now with so many other points drops to make taking them in a list easier.
we need to see what specialist detachment in Vigilus expansion will do ,to judge a single model
lindsay40k wrote: Even if the Bloodcrushers +1T rumour proves to be true, I’d still likely switch them for Flesh Hounds in that list for the DTW coverage.
It is true, but I'd still trade them for even just more bloodletters as they are still pretty darn bad.
Been thinking of trying this with the new buffs any opinions/suggested changes that don't involve going off theme ?
I was thinking on maybe dropping a seeker each and adding in an icon to each squad, so I can potentially get the first turn charge with the icon re-roll to hit buffs from the stratagems. (it isn't an optimal list it does require some tweaks) though I do like the idea of having 170 models on the table
Oh, definitely take the Icons, getting nineteen or thirty-eight Seekers into melee on the first turn is great.
I can’t help but think maybe trade a squad of Daemonettes for an additional Fiend. If you get first turn or have good cover and make either of those charges, having two chances to hug a unit and make it stand still for a ripping apart in the enemy turn is delicious
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oops, it’s instruments that give the movement boost, d’oh
A unit of Fiends has to survive at least one round of being swung at for them to have any real point; you need at least two per unit (IMO) and another unit to smash in to take Overwatch and to take some of the heat in the ensuing fight.
Then again, you don't want to wipe whatever you're charging either, so... I think 3x12 Seekers would be better than 2x20 Seekers.
Also, it's kind of weird to invest so much in Seekers and not give them a Herald, nuh?
Excommunicatus wrote: A unit of Fiends has to survive at least one round of being swung at for them to have any real point; you need at least two per unit (IMO) and another unit to smash in to take Overwatch and to take some of the heat in the ensuing fight.
Then again, you don't want to wipe whatever you're charging either, so... I think 3x12 Seekers would be better than 2x20 Seekers.
Also, it's kind of weird to invest so much in Seekers and not give them a Herald, nuh?
Normally i conga line 3 seekers to my infantry heralds, since there bases are like 3 inches long 1/2 inch coherency means you can get at least 1 herald aura into range.
I was thinking of deepstriking the fiends later in the game and having them go for the long distance charges (in reality I just wanted to do a battalion)
Excommunicatus wrote: I disagree, but the Infernal Enrapturess (somebody got paid to come up with that) would look pretty sweet sitting atop an Exalted Chariot.
Well "Infernal Enrapturess" is still a far better name than any of the new Nurgle Heralds. I assumed that she was mounted until we finally got good pics of the herald. So lets hope that her auras have either good range or effect the entire board; because she doesn't appear to be very mobile. As for boosting summoning hopes she allows us summons free units or drops most of its restrictions.
Excommunicatus wrote: I disagree, but the Infernal Enrapturess (somebody got paid to come up with that) would look pretty sweet sitting atop an Exalted Chariot.
Well "Infernal Enrapturess" is still a far better name than any of the new Nurgle Heralds. I assumed that she was mounted until we finally got good pics of the herald. So lets hope that her auras have either good range or effect the entire board; because she doesn't appear to be very mobile. As for boosting summoning hopes she allows us summons free units or drops most of its restrictions.
I wouldn't have the highest hopes, if you set your expectations lower it is harder to be disappointed I just hope she isn't awful.
The model is amazing, and I really want to use her.
Rydria wrote: I wonder what the Infernal harpist does now, I wonder if she is a generic HQ or a new special character.
I would assume "generic HQ" in the mold of the various Nurgle heralds.
Well it turns out she is a generic herald type: "...the Infernal Enrapturess – a new kind of Slaaneshi herald who bolsters summoning and shreds enemy units with sonic waves."
Since summoning is trash she have to do a lot to make it good. I do like that she have a "sonic" weapon though.
Rumours of their uselessness have been greatly exaggerated.
They've never been useless but they're are still over-costed. But it hardly matter now with so many other points drops to make taking them in a list easier.
we need to see what specialist detachment in Vigilus expansion will do ,to judge a single model
I wasn't aware that Choas even got a specialist detachment in Vigilus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: Fiends also are gettin a new datasheet change soooo keep that in mind lads
We've already seen the Datasheet in CA for Fiends and it was just +1 wound and a unit leader with +1 attack. It's doubtful that we'll see a markedly different datasheet come along with Wrath and Rapture in two weeks.
vaklor4 wrote: ...Oh really? Ouch, okay yeah fiends are still bad.
And I'd say Wrath and Rapture is worth if you want the minis now, since they'll probably delay the solo-boxes for the 4 new models.
I don't see how they're bad. They may not be ZOMG OP. They're still a fairly small model. With 3 of them that's 12 wounds. Or you can just take them individually and hide behind cover and charge. Especially since they have some useful utility.
Five - You play both ìn 40k and AoS Four - You play (or want to play) one in both games
Three - You play one Of the gods in both games, or are just after new sculpt.
Two - You have a tonne of the current daemons but want the character for your army.
One - You dislike the new sculpts, or are in the wrong army thread.
I am getting two boxes and selling the duplicate characters to a fellow Chaos player for cheap.
Out of curiosity, at about $1.10-per-point, are Beasts of Nurge the most costly-per-point unit in 40k?
Try smasha gun. In US dollars 1.48$ per point.
Luckily for orks combining trukk gives you at least 4 mek guns(1 of each type) for price of less than 2 and some simple converting. But if you are strict on pure official models...Smasha guns are pretty darn awful in terms of dollars per points.
Five - You play both ìn 40k and AoS Four - You play (or want to play) one in both games
Three - You play one Of the gods in both games, or are just after new sculpt.
Two - You have a tonne of the current daemons but want the character for your army.
One - You dislike the new sculpts, or are in the wrong army thread.
I am getting two boxes and selling the duplicate characters to a fellow Chaos player for cheap.
You also get 2 books I believe one of which has rules, and the other lore, I'm trying to find someone to split the set with despite only wanting the fiends and herald
So humour me on this one: why is everybody loving Slaanesh all of a sudden? I hear they got a few point drops in CA, but surely they're not suddenly the best thing ever?
Vomikron Noxis wrote: So humour me on this one: why is everybody loving Slaanesh all of a sudden? I hear they got a few point drops in CA, but surely they're not suddenly the best thing ever?
They now have the cheapest daemon options, by a mile. Overall they are now the best chance at a Daemon swarm you can get. Its not so much that they are the best now, they just improved from being the worst to being on par with the rest.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: So humour me on this one: why is everybody loving Slaanesh all of a sudden? I hear they got a few point drops in CA, but surely they're not suddenly the best thing ever?
They went from one of the worst mono builds in the entire game (possibly worse than GK) to actually playerble. The point drops where substantial at an armywide level like nearly everything got 20% cheaper, some things like seeker chariots got 30% cheaper.
I’m working on getting two more SC Slaanesh boxes, one wrath and rapture box, and 5 daemonette boxes; it’ll give me 30 seekers, 90 daemonettes, 3 exalted chariots, 3 hellflayers, 3 seemed chariots, and two heralds on chariots when combined with what I already have. Plus Daemon Princes and KoSs, of course. My Slaanesh army has 9 chariots, 86 daemonettes, 2 KoS, 1 DP, and rounds out with 10 Seekers. Plus full commands. 9CP. I could get more in, but I want that swarm of chariots! And that’s just a touch under 2k.
Indeed. Now I feel like my army went from "just bad with Zarakynel being fun and bad" to "really good, but Zarakynel actively holds it back."
I hope the Character customization rules let me make an Exalted Keeper of Secrets that's fluffy for my army without forcing me to use that overpriced EKOS from FW.
It is pretty baffling that Herself stayed 666pts. Three Codex KoS and a DP is only about ten points more.
Yeah, or just four Codex KoS. It's ridiculous.
And there's OPEN PLAY character customization rules in Chapter Approved - you can look up details online, though no one has leaked them. My local group, however, has basically decided that they're allowed even in matched play games, unless some things are REALLY egregious. Mind you, this is the same group that offered to let me play Zarakynel at her original price, so they're just very nice all around.
We'll see what happens and I really wish the CA2018 was out already so I could read them for myself.
Why don't you just use the FWKoS as a regular KoS? I know she's a bit bigger, but...seems like just a cool centerpiece option? Just use her with normal KoS rules and normal KoS points. I can't see anybody other than the worst rules lawyers/fun police having an issue with it.
timetowaste85 wrote: Why don't you just use the FWKoS as a regular KoS? I know she's a bit bigger, but...seems like just a cool centerpiece option? Just use her with normal KoS rules and normal KoS points. I can't see anybody other than the worst rules lawyers/fun police having an issue with it.
Character wise, it's because my Legion's commander, Czumneth Ereshkigal, is an Exalted Keeper of Secrets, not a regular one.
Game-wise, it's because Keepers of Secrets are 12-wound 5++ save models with no other protections. While they may be competitively priced for tournament games where fluff doesn't matter, they suffer a bit from it in narrative play. My Daemon Prince, supposedly one of my EKoS's lieutenants, would be dramatically tougher than she is because of the Character rule. It's unfortunate when your Exalted Keeper of Secrets, the Architect of Misery, the Burner of a Thousand Worlds (whatever whatever, those aren't all actually her titles) dies to a mediocre round of shooting from a single Taurox Prime. That's narratively silly.
EDIT: To put in perspective: I try to write all my games into my fluff where and when I can. And it just sucks to write: "Lo, but did doom come to the world, for Czumneth Ereshkigal, the Architect of Misery (which actually is her real title) stepped forth from the warp portal... and then a few boltguns trivially gunned her down because she's about as durable as wet paper." Every Game. And even if you do run 4 Keepers of Secrets, it's guaranteed to happen, because it gets them Slay the Warlord. And then if you don't make her the warlord, you have to explain why she is delegating command to some little gak despite being a Daemon of vanity and ambition and personally showing up.
And in my play group, we take the fluff fairly seriously, so even if I do all of those things, they'll still shoot at her just to score narrative points (which I appreciate).
Vomikron Noxis wrote: So humour me on this one: why is everybody loving Slaanesh all of a sudden? I hear they got a few point drops in CA, but surely they're not suddenly the best thing ever?
I know others have responded but I wanted to throw my thoughts out as well.
I played Slaanesh demons since the index (with Heldrakes for fun ) and I really loved it. The speed is just amazing to get in so quickly.
The codex was nothing like I hoped for Slaanesh. The psychic powers and how the locus worked kind of bummed me out (I was hoping for generic demon bonus instead of god focused).
Slaanesh didn't have any cool tricks coming out of the codex like Bloodletter bombs and they sure as hell did not have the support options like Nurgle has. So it was pretty depressing.
The extra points here are just so massive to make a very fast CC demon army. And when I looked at how many extra points I had, I felt like I had a real amount of stuff that could get through the firepower I see (at least, of current army firepower...)
Nurgle and Khorne are probably still better overall but now I can fit in enough to actually survive getting there and have enough support. Where before I only had one herald for the str buff (which nettes so very much need).
We'll see what happens but a real Slaanesh demon horde with Fiends and Seekers looks decent.
My hopes on the Harp chick have diminished with the rule tidbits they have thrown out but overall, I am very happy with what I am seeing from Slaanesh.
What are the rules for the harp herald? I haven't had a chance to see them and don't know where to look (without waiting until it comes out officially).
timetowaste85 wrote: What are the rules for the harp herald? I haven't had a chance to see them and don't know where to look (without waiting until it comes out officially).
They are not out yet. The last couple tidbits are about it being able to help summoning and having a sonic weapon.
Today's post on Warhammer community mentions a bit more:
In my experience, if your enemy is shooting at your Daemonettes - enough to make them die "in swarms" - then something has already gone catastrophically wrong elsewhere.
You can't just run at it, shouting like a brainless ninny. That's what Khorne is for.
timetowaste85 wrote: What are the rules for the harp herald? I haven't had a chance to see them and don't know where to look (without waiting until it comes out officially).
They are not out yet. The last couple tidbits are about it being able to help summoning and having a sonic weapon.
Today's post on Warhammer community mentions a bit more:
Now, obviously this could turn out to be a very good model and exactly what Slaanesh needs but I thought it would be more of a buff unit.
I am taking that explanation for her powers with a grain of salt. She is a character that will be used in both games, and summoning is big in AOS. Especially with Slaanesh using depravity points. So that could be a nod to AoS and have nothing to do with 40k. Kind of like how in 40k we don't have Exalted KOS.
But we shall see! Tomorrow is supposed to detail what the models do.
timetowaste85 wrote: What are the rules for the harp herald? I haven't had a chance to see them and don't know where to look (without waiting until it comes out officially).
They are not out yet. The last couple tidbits are about it being able to help summoning and having a sonic weapon.
Today's post on Warhammer community mentions a bit more:
Now, obviously this could turn out to be a very good model and exactly what Slaanesh needs but I thought it would be more of a buff unit.
I am taking that explanation for her powers with a grain of salt. She is a character that will be used in both games, and summoning is big in AOS. Especially with Slaanesh using depravity points. So that could be a nod to AoS and have nothing to do with 40k. Kind of like how in 40k we don't have Exalted KOS.
But we shall see!
Your right, I should have clarified that all this is probably for AoS. That said, I would expect some level of similarity across the two systems.
Out of curiosity, at about $1.10-per-point, are Beasts of Nurge the most costly-per-point unit in 40k?
Try smasha gun. In US dollars 1.48$ per point.
Luckily for orks combining trukk gives you at least 4 mek guns(1 of each type) for price of less than 2 and some simple converting. But if you are strict on pure official models...Smasha guns are pretty darn awful in terms of dollars per points.
Kroot Hounds. 1.54$ per point. It is still half the price when the models were in metal and came in a 2 pack!
Rydria wrote: I kind of wish forge world would drop the big character daemons and just make them generic exalted daemons instead, anyone else think this ?
Eh, nah. I doubt i'd ever play more than one of them. So beyond the special character rule, I dont see why you gotta generic 'em.
Rydria wrote: Been thinking of trying this with the new buffs any opinions/suggested changes that don't involve going off theme ?
I was thinking on maybe dropping a seeker each and adding in an icon to each squad, so I can potentially get the first turn charge with the icon re-roll to hit buffs from the stratagems. (it isn't an optimal list it does require some tweaks) though I do like the idea of having 170 models on the table
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's a good way for Daemons to clear away screens turn 1? Letterbombs are great, but not if they only get to charge Grots.
30 Pink horrors with icon for +1 advance and a DP for reroll 1s
I would DS the horrors TBH; 90 shots you can split them between a couple targets. But you definitely want a Changecaster there to help with Flickering Flames; wounding most chaff on 3+ or 2+ is pretty good. I'm actually building a small Khorne and Tzeentch force myself to give me options, I hate being stuck with only running Plaguebearers
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Rules for new Slaanesh Herald are out and I am happy! If she is not a unique character I will be taking at least a couple of them!
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Rules for new Slaanesh Herald are out and I am happy! If she is not a unique character I will be taking at least a couple of them!
She is very, very good, especially if she ends up being cheap. The boost to Fiends is welcome as well.
I think we will see a huge shift in the meta as well, seems like more and more events are moving toward "tabling does not cause you to automatically lose" to stunt alpha-strike lists. I know my event this weekend is using similar rules, so board presence, staying power, and flexibility will be looked at more than killing power I feel; Fiends seem like they can be a great, flexible unit with good killing power.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Rules for new Slaanesh Herald are out and I am happy! If she is not a unique character I will be taking at least a couple of them!
A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
schadenfreude wrote: A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
Great point.
The only issue here is... its kinda a waste if the opponent doesn't use Psychers, her other stuff is kinda meh. But, depending on points, she might fit neatly in a undivided daemon force.
A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
Yup, as if daemons were not enough of a hard-counter to my "true" TS army, now that dude would make my psykers be in even more trouble.
And my answer to characters IS psykers x_x
A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
Yup, as if daemons were not enough of a hard-counter to my "true" TS army, now that dude would make my psykers be in even more trouble.
And my answer to characters IS psykers x_x
I wouldn't worry much... Slaneesh isn't exactly popular. I find it hilarious shes in a box against Khorne, the only daemon faction with no psychers...
schadenfreude wrote: A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
Great point.
The only issue here is... its kinda a waste if the opponent doesn't use Psychers, her other stuff is kinda meh. But, depending on points, she might fit neatly in a undivided daemon force.
As you say, her point cost (and ballistic skill) will be extremely relevant--but her shooting attack looks respectable in an army that barely has any, and that ability to regenerate models without any effort is quite good.
Seems the consensus is that people are happy with the direction they've taken Slaanesh? Certainly they've been aggressive in re-costing units, but it feels like they really tossed in the towel in terms of differentiating them from Khorne. Nurgle is slow and durable (except when they're inexplicably fast, thanks Scrivener!), Tzeentch uses mind bullets and some shooting, Khorne punches stuff really hard, and Slaanesh....flails at stuff less effectively than Khorne. Just cutting the point costs (particularly on Daemonettes) seems like an admission that they have no idea how to carve out a niche for Slaanesh.
schadenfreude wrote: A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
Great point.
The only issue here is... its kinda a waste if the opponent doesn't use Psychers, her other stuff is kinda meh. But, depending on points, she might fit neatly in a undivided daemon force.
As you say, her point cost (and ballistic skill) will be extremely relevant--but her shooting attack looks respectable in an army that barely has any, and that ability to regenerate models without any effort is quite good.
Seems the consensus is that people are happy with the direction they've taken Slaanesh? Certainly they've been aggressive in re-costing units, but it feels like they really tossed in the towel in terms of differentiating them from Khorne. Nurgle is slow and durable (except when they're inexplicably fast, thanks Scrivener!), Tzeentch uses mind bullets and some shooting, Khorne punches stuff really hard, and Slaanesh....flails at stuff less effectively than Khorne. Just cutting the point costs (particularly on Daemonettes) seems like an admission that they have no idea how to carve out a niche for Slaanesh.
On the contrary, I took this as a niche. One could convincingly argue that "hordiness" among Daemons is Slaanesh's niche. The Codex goes on and on about how massive Slaanesh is, including mentioning how each of the Chaos Gods, being excesses in their own fields, contribute a good chunk to Slaanesh's influence as well just by existing.
By that interpretation, Slaanesh could be the numerous, horde-daemons that are fast and lithe.
Lorewise, Slaanesh is to Khorne as Aeldari are to Space Marines.
You can totally get away with running a Khorne Daemons army with no greater strategy than "run at it, shouting". You can't with Slaanesh; you need certain units doing certain things at certain times to bring the whole together.
Excommunicatus wrote: Lorewise, Slaanesh is to Khorne as Aeldari are to Space Marines.
You can totally get away with running a Khorne Daemons army with no greater strategy than "run at it, shouting". You can't with Slaanesh; you need certain units doing certain things at certain times to bring the whole together.
schadenfreude wrote: A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
Great point.
The only issue here is... its kinda a waste if the opponent doesn't use Psychers, her other stuff is kinda meh. But, depending on points, she might fit neatly in a undivided daemon force.
As you say, her point cost (and ballistic skill) will be extremely relevant--but her shooting attack looks respectable in an army that barely has any, and that ability to regenerate models without any effort is quite good.
Seems the consensus is that people are happy with the direction they've taken Slaanesh? Certainly they've been aggressive in re-costing units, but it feels like they really tossed in the towel in terms of differentiating them from Khorne. Nurgle is slow and durable (except when they're inexplicably fast, thanks Scrivener!), Tzeentch uses mind bullets and some shooting, Khorne punches stuff really hard, and Slaanesh....flails at stuff less effectively than Khorne. Just cutting the point costs (particularly on Daemonettes) seems like an admission that they have no idea how to carve out a niche for Slaanesh.
Its weird though, shes stealing an ability from the GUO with the bell, plus anti-psycher bubble. Yes, her attack is respectable, but cost is the big question... if shes too cheap, she will be broken (bringing back multiple Fiends a turn, or other wonkiness)
I thought you could resurrect any SLAANESH DAEMON unit that died within 6", but there needs to be a survivor of the unit and then on a 6 you get to add one model back to that unit.
When a KoS buys it, it won't eligible for the roll.
I thought you could resurrect any SLAANESH DAEMON unit that died within 6", but there needs to be a survivor of the unit and then on a 6 you get to add one model back to that unit.
When a KoS buys it, it won't eligible for the roll.
Right, got it. Still really cool for Fiends though.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's a good way for Daemons to clear away screens turn 1? Letterbombs are great, but not if they only get to charge Grots.
30 Pink horrors with icon for +1 advance and a DP for reroll 1s
I would DS the horrors TBH; 90 shots you can split them between a couple targets. But you definitely want a Changecaster there to help with Flickering Flames; wounding most chaff on 3+ or 2+ is pretty good. I'm actually building a small Khorne and Tzeentch force myself to give me options, I hate being stuck with only running Plaguebearers
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's a good way for Daemons to clear away screens turn 1? Letterbombs are great, but not if they only get to charge Grots.
30 Pink horrors with icon for +1 advance and a DP for reroll 1s
I would DS the horrors TBH; 90 shots you can split them between a couple targets. But you definitely want a Changecaster there to help with Flickering Flames; wounding most chaff on 3+ or 2+ is pretty good. I'm actually building a small Khorne and Tzeentch force myself to give me options, I hate being stuck with only running Plaguebearers
Can't DS turn 1...
Yeah, you do it turn 2; i would never start horrors on the field. If you dont get t1, you will lose a ton because they will only have a 4++ on t3 models. Also, you wont be in a position to get to anything anyway unless your playing slaneesh or something. Thats just me though, letters and horrors are best out of deep strike, while plaguebearers are good starting on foot.
Also, i dont see how your letter bomb is getting a t1 charge... you can only declare a charge on units within 12", which means you have to advance + charge, which khorne cannot do (unless im missing something)
schadenfreude wrote: A 24" perils on any double bubble is downright nasty in the army that has a take 2D3 mortal wounds on a perils stratagem.
Vanguard infernal enrapturess +3 fiends would go well with pretty much any chaos army. It's going to be bad news for psyker heavy armies or armies dependent of a psycher as a crutch.
I know my orks will HATE that thing. We blow out our crucial weirdboyz pretty well as it is! This will make it even worse!
Hmm. Do we have a clue as to her M? I take Heralds on Steeds and Fiends for a T1 rushdown, and rarely find a use for their psychic abilities other than smiting. If she can keep up, I could take my points discounts and use them to upgrade my Fiend units to pairs, get some resurrections going. Niche, bordering on gimmick, but I enjoy it.
Hmm. She could resurrect Possessed, Obliterators, Warp Talons...
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Do we have a clue as to her M? I take Heralds on Steeds and Fiends for a T1 rushdown, and rarely find a use for their psychic abilities other than smiting. If she can keep up, I could take my points discounts and use them to upgrade my Fiend units to pairs, get some resurrections going. Niche, bordering on gimmick, but I enjoy it.
Hmm. She could resurrect Possessed, Obliterators, Warp Talons...
Comes to cost, like i pointed out earlier nurgle can already do it with the bell guo, which found niche use in resurrecting myphetic blight haulers and drones (might see this come back with the drops in points), but it is gimmicky. If shes like 90 points i think she will be an auto include for any slaanesh army
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Do we have a clue as to her M? I take Heralds on Steeds and Fiends for a T1 rushdown, and rarely find a use for their psychic abilities other than smiting. If she can keep up, I could take my points discounts and use them to upgrade my Fiend units to pairs, get some resurrections going. Niche, bordering on gimmick, but I enjoy it.
Hmm. She could resurrect Possessed, Obliterators, Warp Talons...
That thing doesn#t look like fast(big harp!) And is backfield support model. I'm betting slow. Could be slowest model in slaanesh army
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Do we have a clue as to her M? I take Heralds on Steeds and Fiends for a T1 rushdown, and rarely find a use for their psychic abilities other than smiting. If she can keep up, I could take my points discounts and use them to upgrade my Fiend units to pairs, get some resurrections going. Niche, bordering on gimmick, but I enjoy it.
Hmm. She could resurrect Possessed, Obliterators, Warp Talons...
That thing doesn#t look like fast(big harp!) And is backfield support model. I'm betting slow. Could be slowest model in slaanesh army
She’ll likely move the speed of daemonettes. So 7” plus a free advance move.
Do you think that they might give a nod to where GW are going to go with the KoS when shkle is re-done? Those heads are quite bovine.
I'd say they're more a cross between bovine and steed heads. But yes I expect the KOS is going to share a lot of design elements with Fiends. So perhaps at least one head similar to a Steed of a Friend. I expect it'll look something like this.
Do you think that they might give a nod to where GW are going to go with the KoS when shkle is re-done? Those heads are quite bovine.
I'd say they're more a cross between bovine and steed heads. But yes I expect the KOS is going to share a lot of design elements with Fiends. So perhaps at least one head similar to a Steed of a Friend. I expect it'll look something like this.
To butcher a quote... YES. PLEASE GOD YES! YYYEEESSSS!!!
The Infernal Enrapturess's rules seem pretty solid. But it'll come down to her point cost and BS. Hopefully she'll cost around 65-75 pts and hit on a 2+.
I don't use summoning, well at all. But it might be worth it to take enough reinforcement point to summon back a unique character like Masque if she dies. That would allow you to take greater risks with her and summon her back on a single die.
Sersi wrote: The Infernal Enrapturess's rules seem pretty solid. But it'll come down to her point cost and BS. Hopefully she'll cost around 65-75 pts and hit on a 2+.
I don't use summoning, well at all. But it might be worth it to take enough reinforcement point to summon back a unique character like Masque if she dies. That would allow you to take greater risks with her and summon her back on a single die.
Someone in another group I’m in mentioned that summoning doesn’t have to follow the rule of 3. So you could summon in a 4th KOS or DP.
Sersi wrote: The Infernal Enrapturess's rules seem pretty solid. But it'll come down to her point cost and BS. Hopefully she'll cost around 65-75 pts and hit on a 2+.
I don't use summoning, well at all. But it might be worth it to take enough reinforcement point to summon back a unique character like Masque if she dies. That would allow you to take greater risks with her and summon her back on a single die.
Someone in another group I’m in mentioned that summoning doesn’t have to follow the rule of 3. So you could summon in a 4th KOS or DP.
Oh, that's a good point. Daemon summoning bypasses the rule of 3.
I never used 'Crushers before, so I wonder if they are just bad or simply worse in comparison to other choices (like Bloodletters)?
Both. They cost the same as (nearly) 7 Bloodletters, but have the offensive output of...3, maybe? The stat update is just +1 Wound, so that gives them the same number of wounds as 4 Bloodletters, with marginally higher durability (T4 vs T3, 4+/5++ vs just 5++), but making them very susceptible to multi-damage weapons. And they're only slightly faster than Bloodletters with a 6" move. Bloodcrushers are straight up terrible.
Sersi wrote: The Infernal Enrapturess's rules seem pretty solid. But it'll come down to her point cost and BS. Hopefully she'll cost around 65-75 pts and hit on a 2+.
I don't use summoning, well at all. But it might be worth it to take enough reinforcement point to summon back a unique character like Masque if she dies. That would allow you to take greater risks with her and summon her back on a single die.
Someone in another group I’m in mentioned that summoning doesn’t have to follow the rule of 3. So you could summon in a 4th KOS or DP.
Oh, that's a good point. Daemon summoning bypasses the rule of 3.
Could be used for a 4th unit of fiends or a 4th chariot. KOSDP or KOS would probably still need the 4d6 summon, but those are good units to put the buff on after surviving d3 mortal.
Since movement in AOS and 40K are similar for Slaanesh she'll probably be Movement 6", likely BS 2, and 5 wounds.
Daemonettes in AOS have changed from 6+ to hit generating an extra attack (or 5+ for 20 or more models).
Now it's 6+ (or 5+ for 20 or more models) and it causes 2 hits with no need to roll to hit with the extra attack.
So maybe a similar change in the 40K Wrath and Rapture booklet.
Has anyone here ever played against the Castellan/Catachan list with bullgryns, mortars, and maybe some slam captains or Artemia hellhounds? I've been doing some theorycrafting against it using daemons and the results are... not inspiring. Siegebreaker missiles that ignore invulns and character protection absolutely wreck our DPs. Skullreaver can theoretically one-turn the Castellan but I don't know how it's going to make it through 60 guardsmen, 9 bullgryns and some custodes or smash captains before getting blown to bits. Also hammer & anvil deployment seems like it would be an absolute nightmare for daemons in this matchup. Anyone have the experience to shed some light on this? I've been dying to play against knights lately but haven't seen them at all in my local meta.
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that can MAYBE deal with this is like.... 90+ plaguebearers + Skullreaver. And pray he misses his siegebreaker missiles as you walk your giant red target up the board.
Sersi wrote: Well, this was leaked on Reddit for AOS:
Since movement in AOS and 40K are similar for Slaanesh she'll probably be Movement 6", likely BS 2, and 5 wounds.
Daemonettes in AOS have changed from 6+ to hit generating an extra attack (or 5+ for 20 or more models).
Now it's 6+ (or 5+ for 20 or more models) and it causes 2 hits with no need to roll to hit with the extra attack.
So maybe a similar change in the 40K Wrath and Rapture booklet.
Daemonettes are movement 6” in AoS, so she’ll likely move 7” just like everyone else in 40k that’s Slaanesh on foot. So as they said, just a new herald on foot. But a wicked cool one at that.
Sersi wrote: Well, this was leaked on Reddit for AOS:
Since movement in AOS and 40K are similar for Slaanesh she'll probably be Movement 6", likely BS 2, and 5 wounds.
Daemonettes in AOS have changed from 6+ to hit generating an extra attack (or 5+ for 20 or more models).
Now it's 6+ (or 5+ for 20 or more models) and it causes 2 hits with no need to roll to hit with the extra attack.
So maybe a similar change in the 40K Wrath and Rapture booklet.
Daemonettes are movement 6” in AoS, so she’ll likely move 7” just like everyone else in 40k that’s Slaanesh on foot. So as they said, just a new herald on foot. But a wicked cool one at that.
Hoofing it at Daemonette speed? That’s still pretty impressive. Not for her, I mean the poor bugger with the harp
Sersi wrote: Well, this was leaked on Reddit for AOS:
Since movement in AOS and 40K are similar for Slaanesh she'll probably be Movement 6", likely BS 2, and 5 wounds.
Daemonettes in AOS have changed from 6+ to hit generating an extra attack (or 5+ for 20 or more models).
Now it's 6+ (or 5+ for 20 or more models) and it causes 2 hits with no need to roll to hit with the extra attack.
So maybe a similar change in the 40K Wrath and Rapture booklet.
Daemonettes are movement 6” in AoS, so she’ll likely move 7” just like everyone else in 40k that’s Slaanesh on foot. So as they said, just a new herald on foot. But a wicked cool one at that.
Hoofing it at Daemonette speed? That’s still pretty impressive. Not for her, I mean the poor bugger with the harp
Sersi wrote: Well, this was leaked on Reddit for AOS:
Since movement in AOS and 40K are similar for Slaanesh she'll probably be Movement 6", likely BS 2, and 5 wounds.
Daemonettes in AOS have changed from 6+ to hit generating an extra attack (or 5+ for 20 or more models).
Now it's 6+ (or 5+ for 20 or more models) and it causes 2 hits with no need to roll to hit with the extra attack.
So maybe a similar change in the 40K Wrath and Rapture booklet.
Daemonettes are movement 6” in AoS, so she’ll likely move 7” just like everyone else in 40k that’s Slaanesh on foot. So as they said, just a new herald on foot. But a wicked cool one at that.
Hoofing it at Daemonette speed? That’s still pretty impressive. Not for her, I mean the poor bugger with the harp
Well according to the design notes he did "volunteer". I can't wait to see that movement animation they come up with whenever we finally get Chaos Daemons in Total War 2.
slave.entity wrote: Has anyone here ever played against the Castellan/Catachan list with bullgryns, mortars, and maybe some slam captains or Artemia hellhounds? I've been doing some theorycrafting against it using daemons and the results are... not inspiring. Siegebreaker missiles that ignore invulns and character protection absolutely wreck our DPs. Skullreaver can theoretically one-turn the Castellan but I don't know how it's going to make it through 60 guardsmen, 9 bullgryns and some custodes or smash captains before getting blown to bits. Also hammer & anvil deployment seems like it would be an absolute nightmare for daemons in this matchup. Anyone have the experience to shed some light on this? I've been dying to play against knights lately but haven't seen them at all in my local meta.
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that can MAYBE deal with this is like.... 90+ plaguebearers + Skullreaver. And pray he misses his siegebreaker missiles as you walk your giant red target up the board.
Blackmage, do you have any thoughts on this?
The simple answer is a pure daemons army is probably not going to work. I've found the best response to just run a renegade dominus and listbuild to edge on going first. Since the fly nerf slam captains aren't as prevalent I think, the real kicker is how to build a list that can handle this type of list and other meta tournament lists such as grotesque spam.
On my side I've had a hard time running plaguebearers in anything other than a pure nurgle list as the volume of fire from guardsman/infantry chew through them at a reasonable clip with the orders for rapid fire. Also the gnarlmaw is such a powerful enabler for the plaguebearers I've felt it necessary to bucket out a detachment which is hard to do in a mixed list. In the past cultist spam was enough but with the price increase will be interesting to see...
On a side note - can the new Slaanesh herald resurrect obliterators? With all the keyword changes this has left me a little confused - but seems so?
urzaplanewalker wrote: What does everyone think about the 4 wound bloodcrushers? It make them worth 47 points?
No, they are still total cabbage at 47 points. At 30, they might be worth it, but Bloodletters are still better, as multi-damage weapons don't waste them as fast. Making Crushers T5 would have helped in addition to the extra wound, and the above mentioned damage reduction would have actually made them good, and given them a little bit of a niche.
urzaplanewalker wrote: What does everyone think about the 4 wound bloodcrushers? It make them worth 47 points?
I've got like 6 of the buggers that NO ONE wants, so I've been planning on using them in AoS. I'll give them a shot, but what kills it for me is their 6" move. They should have at least an 8", for fluff, and because they are riding GIANT METAL BEASTS OF CHAOS!!!! When they were T5 with a +3/++5 in 5th, it was fine for them to be slow, because they were tanky as all hell (5th ed wound allocation shenanigans too) Then 6/7th they became fast, but T4 and no more +3 save. Now we have this odd middle ground, where they are slow and not durable at all.
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Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Might the Gore Hound upgrade qualify as the worst upgrade in the game? I'm sure there are other contenders. Maybe worst upgrade in the daemons codex?
Most def one of the worst in the game. Autohitting is nice, but with a bolter stat on flesh hounds? Points wise it's the same as a flamer right? 9pt? That is just dumb.
Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger
Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger
++ Total: [103 PL, 1999pts] ++
I think the DG Prince will do some massive damage when buffed properly and next to the Nurgle DP. I think it works out to wounds of 4 do 4 dmg, and wounds of 5+ do 7d and a mortal. But only 4 attacks hitting on 3s, reroll 1s....
Spoilpox Scrivener is going up to 95 points tomorrow with CA18, so you might have to make a few cuts somewhere if you want to keep him.
Otherwise looks like a fairly standard Nurgle list.
I assume you're going to DS the trees?
Also, Blades of Putrefection won't give you any mortal wounds from your DP, since he doesn't have plague weapons, unless I've overlooked something. I'd also be fairly sure that Talons would still work out better with the buffs than the Axe, but I haven't run any numbers to confirm. There might not be as much in it as I think.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: So with all these price changes, what does a "competitive" daemons army look like now?
same like before maybe maybe some Guo's can start appear on tables. Maybe can be worth switch one unit of letters with about 25-30 nettes, they clean up screens and deal better with hordes like orks or demon hordes or also tyr, 30 nettes deliver 91 attacks ap-1 is more than enough to wreak havoc on most hordes, then you drop letters that can deal with more worthy and armored targets.
Spoilpox Scrivener is going up to 95 points tomorrow with CA18, so you might have to make a few cuts somewhere if you want to keep him.
yes cut 3 Pb's out of 60 is not a big loss, would find room for 30 extra Pb's, in actual meta for me 90 is minimal number
DS trees has no sense they cant come down turn 1 and turn 2 they come down END of mov phase so they give no benefit until turn 3, better start with them on table, or maybe 1 on table e 1 DS if you want play 2.
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slave.entity wrote: Has anyone here ever played against the Castellan/Catachan list with bullgryns, mortars, and maybe some slam captains or Artemia hellhounds? I've been doing some theorycrafting against it using daemons and the results are... not inspiring. Siegebreaker missiles that ignore invulns and character protection absolutely wreck our DPs. Skullreaver can theoretically one-turn the Castellan but I don't know how it's going to make it through 60 guardsmen, 9 bullgryns and some custodes or smash captains before getting blown to bits. Also hammer & anvil deployment seems like it would be an absolute nightmare for daemons in this matchup. Anyone have the experience to shed some light on this? I've been dying to play against knights lately but haven't seen them at all in my local meta.
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that can MAYBE deal with this is like.... 90+ plaguebearers + Skullreaver. And pray he misses his siegebreaker missiles as you walk your giant red target up the board.
Blackmage, do you have any thoughts on this?
play the mission, with 90-120 Pb's pretty hard he can deal with them quick enough, tree gice you a edge, siegebreaker seldom kill a Dp (and a demon list play 2-3 of them) usully they bring two missiles and they must both hit wound and roll high to wound, if then you play something like 60 letters+herald you can deal massive damage, and gain time with Pb's/Dp's, missions are win without need to table or destroy opponent, take board control and let him grind with u, play for objective not for kill enemy, is not an easy match but def you can pull off a victory i seen some demon players win against a list like that, you must be skilled to play properly the castellan list is not that easy like it seems, we tested that match in ETC and a skilled demon player have good chances to win.
urzaplanewalker wrote: What does everyone think about the 4 wound bloodcrushers? It make them worth 47 points?
I've got like 6 of the buggers that NO ONE wants, so I've been planning on using them in AoS. I'll give them a shot, but what kills it for me is their 6" move. They should have at least an 8", for fluff, and because they are riding GIANT METAL BEASTS OF CHAOS!!!! When they were T5 with a +3/++5 in 5th, it was fine for them to be slow, because they were tanky as all hell (5th ed wound allocation shenanigans too) Then 6/7th they became fast, but T4 and no more +3 save. Now we have this odd middle ground, where they are slow and not durable at all.
They do move 8". I think they should move 10", but with +1 to their charge and advances they technically have a move of 9".
why you must play crusher instead of letters? they can cost less but they are also less effective point wise. multiwound weapons erase 47 points in a second, shoot multi wound weapons at letters and you can laugh.
BattleScribe is now updated and I have been playing around with the Slaanesh updates. I can fit an insane amount of stuff into a 1750 army list now. It was just a test of how much I could fit compared to the old pints really. There are now a TON of wounds to chew through in this army.
I made a brigade and a spear head and still have some points left over. 60 daemonettes, 3 hell flayers, 3 seeker chariots, 3 exalted chariots, 3 fiends, 2 heralds, and 3 Keeper of Secrets.
I ran into a question now that the KoS is spammable. The wit stealer says if you take a wound from it that model is -1 to hit. It specifies “this weapon” though. Technically another KoS has a different wit stealer though right? Would the effect stack?
The Infernal Enrapturess looks good Movement 7 to keep up with Instrument equipped Daemonettes, and BS 2+ for her ranged attacks. That's pretty solid although she only has 2 melee attacks.
It was blurred but it looked like the Infernal Enrapturess and Karanak are 80 pts and 70 pts. However since all the others daemons points were pre-Chapter Approved costs they might get lowered when the FAQ comes out. Looks like both factions received two 1 CP stratagems. sadly they are all mission specific to Wrath and Rapture. Which is a shame because they look pretty useful and characterful. Summoning from any board edge for the Infernal Enrapturess, and summoning after moving for Karanak. As well as allowing Daemonettes to re-roll 1's to wound and Flesh hounds to re-roll 1's to hit, while within 6" of their Heralds.
SLAANESH STRATAGEMS:
Rapture of Violence: 1 CP
Use this Stratagem at the start of your tune. Select an Infernal Enrapturess from your army. Until the start of your next turn, re-roll wound rolls of 1 for friendly units of DAEMONETTES in the fight phase whilst within 6" of this Infernal Enrapturess.
Tighten the Noose: 1 CP
Use this stratagem at the end of your first, second, and/or third Movement phase. The unit entering the battlefield this turn (see entering the fray) can be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge.
KHORNE STRATAGEMS:
Howl of Wrath: 1 CP
Use this stratagem at the start of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, re-roll wound rolls of 1 for friendly units of FLESH HOUNDS in the fight phase whilst within 6" of this Karanak.
Howling Summons: 1 CP
Use this stratagem at the start of your Movement phase. Karanak can attempt to use the Daemonic Ritual ability to summon a unit of 10 Bloodletters, 5 Flesh Hounds or 3 Bloodcrushers at the end of the movement phase.
The new herald seems okay but not amazing. Like, what are you taking her for? The shooting profile is okay but not great. The summoning buff is okay but doesn't really address the main issues with the summoning mechanic. The psyker debuff is nice but situational. The healing aura is nice but statistically is only going to work once a game per squad, and at 6" you're relying on your squads staying bunched around her which imo is unrealistic for an all assault based army.
BlaxicanX wrote: The new herald seems okay but not amazing. Like, what are you taking her for? The shooting profile is okay but not great. The summoning buff is okay but doesn't really address the main issues with the summoning mechanic. The psyker debuff is nice but situational. The healing aura is nice but statistically is only going to work once a game per squad, and at 6" you're relying on your squads staying bunched around her which imo is unrealistic for an all assault based army.
Dunno. She does several things but mediocrely.
I wasn't expecting her to turn things around or even be good. There were a whole host of things they could have done. I don't think we need more psychic defense at all being one of the most Psyker heavy armies. Re-gen abilities are pretty worthless just like daemonic icon. Her shooting is decent but you have so little of it anyway you be better off to allying in some CSM. Slaanesh needs changes that works with how the army functions like: re-roll to run and charge, or +3" to advance or charge, or a +1 to wound, or double movement, or leaving combat at the end of the enemy's combat phase. Ways to get into combat faster, or avoid shooting, or at least inflict serious damage with whatever makes it into combat. It is what it is though so I'll run for the model alone if noting else.
if i would going to run a large bunch of demonettes i would play a normal herald+mask+enrapturess, +1str -1 to be hit reroll of 1 to wound (with stratagem).
I like her. Sure, we’ve got DTW coverage and some short ranged casting penalties, but her two foot radius turns Possession from a 5.6% perk to a 16.7% threat. The blast isn’t much but could be enough to make a unit hug cover, and she can run and strum. Nice synergy in Daemonkin armies as well - I can see her being a handful on a midfield objective with some Obliterators. If and when Summoning gets fixed, that could be a dangerous castle.
not really like a culexus but can be annoying, she work great with demon stratagem demonic posession, 1cp and at any double 2d3 mortal wounds. Anyway i m still sure letters will be used instead of demonettes, at least in competitive lists.
Nym wrote: The Enrapturess is as much a pain as a Culexus Assassin to Psykers guys. As a Thousand Sons player, I dread the day I'll meet her on the tabletop.
And she also has a very accurate missile launcher AND an awesome stratagem. What's not to like ?
Just throw her in the middle of the board with 60 or 90 Daemonettes and enjoy the chaos.
Howabout orks. They can't max out on their reliability for casting or they have 66% chance of perilling with that close buy. 66%...Orks already blow their crucial weirdboys well enough without external help!
Against orks it's going to make their da jumps much less likely to work and that's something orks hate.
I'd like to see what type of lists people are running for a Slaanesh daemon force. I'm hearing things like "this unit is putting out X attacks with re-rolls!" and my first thought is "okay how is your army of t3 and t4 5++ models making it into combat without at least 50% losses on every unit".
I wonder if triple KoS is viable with their points reductions.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'd like to see what type of lists people are running for a Slaanesh daemon force. I'm hearing things like "this unit is putting out X attacks with re-rolls!" and my first thought is "okay how is your army of t3 and t4 5++ models making it into combat without at least 50% losses on every unit".
I wonder if triple KoS is viable with their points reductions.
Well. Compared to orks they are faster, notably tougher and cheaper. Dunno. As an ork player we get stuff to combat and slaanesh daemons you have more that are even tougher than our units. Only advantage orks have in that area is 8" deep strike charge with one clan and that eats into CP fast.
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