Hmm. Units and attacks that can freely select characters as targets - R&H snipers, Infernal Gaze, Doombolt, Bolt of Change, situationally Treason of Tzeentch, etc - take on a whole new element when we have a modestly reliable way to force fragile support characters to take 2D3 wounds. I’m not going to try to pull off a level 8-9 spell like three times to try to knock down an enemy, but if I can get an easy four MW for 1CP, that’s not too shabby.
Hmm. Zoanthropes, and their easy access to ‘reroll 1’s to cast’ buff. I think that might make doubles *more* likely? It means a full reroll of the 1/36 1-1 score, buuut on all 10/36 of the 1-(>1) and (>1)-1, it changes those from definite no Perils to a 1/6 chance of Perils. Now, the lower of those scores (your 1-2’s and suchlike) are probably not going to get rerolled, and I’ve not done complicated mathhammer in a while, buuut my gut’s telling me that’s actually a marginal increase in danger.
Of course, for this to make a difference, this extremely squishy support character has to get within 24” of Zoanthropes and the likely accompanying tidal wave of Genestealers
Chapter approved does not have the beta trial rules in it because they are just that, beta rules not official. However they still applu. most tourneys use the beta rules anyways so yes, no t1 deep striking still.
I always take my disloyal 32 demonettes with my black legion force, i take 3x10 demonettes and 2 heralds. Thats now a flat 300 pts. Most times my opponent will shoot something at the demonettes but my chaos side has so much threat saturation that they cant focus on all 3 squads t1. And with demonettes moving 7+d6 with advance, then the herald giving them additional advance and charge, thats a possible (definitely not probable) charge depending on the opponent. If you want a better chance take seekers of slaanesh and a herald on steed, that will get there.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'd like to see what type of lists people are running for a Slaanesh daemon force. I'm hearing things like "this unit is putting out X attacks with re-rolls!" and my first thought is "okay how is your army of t3 and t4 5++ models making it into combat without at least 50% losses on every unit".
I wonder if triple KoS is viable with their points reductions.
I played last night and the difference CA made for my mono-Slaanesh force was beyond noticeable. I could fit so much stuff in, it was insane. I think pre-CA that was a valid question, because we had so little stuff and it was so fragile. I ran a fairly non-optimized list and had so much target saturation it was impossible for things to not get into contact with minimal losses. Sure stuff died, just like before CA. but I had so much more behind it that I didn't care now. Two notes before my list 1) It's 1750 and 2) I won, but it was a brutal game. It seemed much more balanced with our points as I have played against this guys DW before and it rocked me because I had so much less stuff.
1x Masque, 2x Seeker Chariots, 1x Exalted Seeker Chariot, 2x 20 Daemonette units (with banner and musician).
Supreme Command:
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings, 2x Keepers.
Before CA there is no way I would fit those Keepers in, nor a good chunk of the Daemonettes and Chariots. And that is a 1750 list. 2k I could add way more still.
My DW buddy had 2 flyers I couldn't do much about and it was with a hammer and anvil deployment. I still had units get across the board untouched. I simply had too much board saturation for him to get everything. Especially with half my army moving an average of 15". The Chariots are T5 as well. The only thing that saved his ass was the hellfire rounds being able to chew threw my chariots and KoS (though I did win).
If I had the infernal enrapturess I could have slapped those flyers a bit more, with the combination of smite and the DP I may have been able to actually do something about them instead of ignoring them for 4+ turns until I had enough and tore one from the sky in melee. I would absolutely drop the seekers for multiples of her.
Also I learned two new things: 1) The new CA missions benefit us greatly. It isn't about killing anymore. My saturation secured objectives and without sudden death I won on points EASILY. He castled too much and it was a downfall, he was forced to come out to meet me. Objectives being on the ground floor and no sudden death, along with being a more objective focused missions really helps us win games imo. and 2) From what I can tell, our chariots can go up levels in ruins. They are not included in the BRB or the FAQ update. I did not get to use it but it has hilarious potential.
*EDIT* Chariots are included in the rule in an update in CA apparently? You think you find something new... lol.
Speaking of the chariots, can someone explain to me how you attack with it in melee?
The description says that it has an exalted alluress with piercing claws, two steeds of slaanesh with lashing tongues and two seekers with piercing claws and lashes of torment.
That's fine, but there's only a single unit profile which is the Hellflayer itself, with 5 attacks at strength 4. Do you divy those 5 attacks up between all the models, or is it 5 attacks from the alluress and 5 attacks each from the two seekers?
BlaxicanX wrote: An utter non-statement without details or context.
Well. Orks can get into combat with slower softer more expensive infantry. How on earth you couldn't? Player skill?
Orks move less, they die way more easily and there's 16% less models. So if orks make it into combat(which they can do) logically enough slaanesh daemons do it faster, having lost less # of models and having had more models to begin with. How they compare in combat after that is another thing. But in terms of getting it into combat slaanesh has it easy compared to orks.
BlaxicanX wrote: Speaking of the chariots, can someone explain to me how you attack with it in melee?
The description says that it has an exalted alluress with piercing claws, two steeds of slaanesh with lashing tongues and two seekers with piercing claws and lashes of torment.
That's fine, but there's only a single unit profile which is the Hellflayer itself, with 5 attacks at strength 4. Do you divy those 5 attacks up between all the models, or is it 5 attacks from the alluress and 5 attacks each from the two seekers?
I can do that. It goes in steps, though it all fights at once as a unit. First you do the 5 attacks with the Daemonettes/Allures on the chariot, then you can choose between the axle or the seekers. It doesn't really matter. So it's 5 from the alluress, D6 from the axle, then 4 from the Seekers is how I normally do it.
Which is how the Exalted chariot gets 16 attacks. 8 for the daemonettes/Alluress, 8 for the Seekers.
tokugawa wrote: Nurgle players, how did your Daemonic Icons work for you? Do you upgrade every Plaguebearer unit to have Plague banner?
Oh, no, no chance. Most of the time I take small units for home objective screening that don’t even get the basic upgrades. Sometimes, I’ll take a medium sized horde for a midfield tarpit that get the upgrades just to be more mobile and to frustrate my opponent should I win a morale check. And on rare occasions I’ll invest 1CP to give a unit a one-off damage booster because it’s a massive horde unit that Epidemius will boost after he’s been charged up by Obliterators, Defilers, Myphitic Blight-Haulers, and Daemon Princes, and will hopefully wipe the plate in the late game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Banner of Blood is essential on any Bloodletters uni that’s not just a Troops tax space-filler, and when I get my Seekers expanded to fifteen then Rapturous Standard will be a must-have.
My Daemonettes by and large make it into combat (mostly) unmolested because my Chariots, Fiends and Seekers make a headlong, dash at the enemy lines, clear chaff and then die. Daemonettes form the second wave.
Also games I play use the recommended amount of terrain, so cover isn't hard to find for 25mm bases after they DS/while they're on their way.
My 2K list was, pre CA-2018
Six Heralds, three on foot, two on Steeds, one on a Seeker Chariot
Six Fiends
60 Daemonettes
Eighteen Seekers
3 Hellflayers
2 Seeker Chariots
Now I get to squeeze in a KoS who gets Celerity of Slaanesh and joins the headlong charge.
BlaxicanX wrote: It was introduced as beta rules in The Big FAQ, but it hasn't been instated as official rules yet.
I don't know how tournaments deal with beta rules, though.
major tournaments 99% of times apply beta rules
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Excommunicatus wrote: My Daemonettes by and large make it into combat (mostly) unmolested because my Chariots, Fiends and Seekers make a headlong, dash at the enemy lines, clear chaff and then die. Daemonettes form the second wave.
Also games I play use the recommended amount of terrain, so cover isn't hard to find for 25mm bases after they DS/while they're on their way.
My 2K list was, pre CA-2018
Six Heralds, three on foot, two on Steeds, one on a Seeker Chariot
Six Fiends
60 Daemonettes
Eighteen Seekers
3 Hellflayers
2 Seeker Chariots
Now I get to squeeze in a KoS who gets Celerity of Slaanesh and joins the headlong charge.
i would go for extra 20 demonettes, anyway i like ur list i was always a slaanes lover pity it is not same level as nurgle at least in competitive enviroment where i usually play.
tneva82 wrote: Well. Orks can get into combat with slower softer more expensive infantry. How on earth you couldn't? Player skill?
Orks move less, they die way more easily and there's 16% less models. So if orks make it into combat(which they can do) logically enough slaanesh daemons do it faster, having lost less # of models and having had more models to begin with. How they compare in combat after that is another thing. But in terms of getting it into combat slaanesh has it easy compared to orks.
You just repeated what you already said, but worded slightly differently, lol.
Like I don't know why you think I care about ork analogies. I don't play orks, this isn't an orks tactics thread- it's a daemons tactics thread. Make your point using daemon units and rules.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I can do that. It goes in steps, though it all fights at once as a unit. First you do the 5 attacks with the Daemonettes/Allures on the chariot, then you can choose between the axle or the seekers. It doesn't really matter. So it's 5 from the alluress, D6 from the axle, then 4 from the Seekers is how I normally do it.
Which is how the Exalted chariot gets 16 attacks. 8 for the daemonettes/Alluress, 8 for the Seekers.
Gotcha, thank you. Looking at your list, how do you feel about feinds? At 42ppm and with the points reductions to the chariots you'd probably have enough space for two units if you maybe dropped a seeker unit.
vaklor4 wrote: So what changed for Horrors in CA? I dont notice anything.
I’m pretty certain it’s for people whose only datasheet for them is the one that came in the kit or their Heretic Astartes book, and are either Summoning them or playing open play.
Dunno yet but I plan to find out. Based on the prior coversation I'm going to try out a list next weekend that's similar to Armchair's, but at 1500.
Herald of Slaanesh
Masque
10xDaemonettes - Instrument
10xDaemonettes - Instrument
10xDaemonettes - Instrument
Hellflayer
Hellflayer
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh - Wings, Malefic Talons
Keeper of Secrets
Keeper of Secrets
10xDaemonettes - Instrument
10xDaemonettes - Instrument
10xDaemonettes - Instrument
Seeker Chariot
Seeker Chariot
Exalted Seeker Chariot
Seems like a fun rushdown list. Buuuut, I don't know about the balance of daemonettes to chariots. I wonder if at 1500 I might be better off sacrificing a daemonette squad for another chariot or maybe some fiends.
BlaxicanX wrote: Gotcha, thank you. Looking at your list, how do you feel about feinds? At 42ppm and with the points reductions to the chariots you'd probably have enough space for two units if you maybe dropped a seeker unit.
I am very tempted to take a squad or two of them in replacement for the Seekers. I am not a big fan of the Seekers but use them to tie up units in combat/kill chaff. I think the Fiends can do just as well (even better really) at that job. Plus you get some nice bonus abilities from them.
I will say my Seekers performed quite well in my last game. Nothing spectacular but they did the job mentioned above quite well, by the end of the game they had literally done a lap around the entire board and then some.
I am also tempted to just spam the chariots, mostly because it would look so cool on the table.
FWIW, if I was building my mounted Heralds again today, knowing they were Index-Only, I probably wouldn't bother.
They're comparatively pricey and only get Piercing, not Ravaging, Claws (only D1) and can't take the Claws stratagem.
Either that or alternatively having two available to summon, getting around the rule of 3, so having 11 chariots on the field for a whopping 700pts. Plus keepers, harp herald, DP, seekers and daemonettes. Oddly enough, no fiends.
FWIW, if I was building my mounted Heralds again today, knowing they were Index-Only, I probably wouldn't bother.
They're comparatively pricey and only get Piercing, not Ravaging, Claws (only D1) and can't take the Claws stratagem.
Either that or alternatively having two available to summon, getting around the rule of 3, so having 11 chariots on the field for a whopping 700pts. Plus keepers, harp herald, DP, seekers and daemonettes. Oddly enough, no fiends.
This should be super easy with a harp lady or two. All the chariots are only 5PL. You'd have to roll a 1 to fail the summoning.
timetowaste85 wrote: I’m planning on chariot spam as well. Currently I have eight, planning on 9 plus Heralds on chariots as well for a total of 11.
I have been using chariots a lot since 8th edition started and while they are great, I found they give off diminishing returns if the board has even a decent amount of terrain. They have big bases, not to mention all the spiky, pokey, tonguey bits that extend well beyond the base, and so I have found that any more than 3 tends to get in each others way, especially if you have anything else big competing for front line space. It is also worth keeping in mind that any reasonable amount a elevated terrain essentially hard counters the chariots in to very flamboyant objective holders.
On a side note, I am seeing a lot of lists here referencing seekers and hellflayers, but really I have found exalted chariots to just be completely dominating in terms of what you get for your points cost. The exalted gets a total of 16 attacks compared to the 9 of the seeker, those attacks are coming in at ws 2+ instead of 3+ (until it goes down a level from wounds, but at that point the seeker is dead anyway), and it has twice as many wounds for only 30 points more. The hellflayer's axle is nice, but at 6 wounds, it is just so easy to pop I would almost always rather just spend the extra 10 points for the extra 6 wounds. I have been playing with trying some hellflayers with my exalted chariots, but my concern is they will start tripping over each other.
That said, the new points cost makes all the chariots much more attractive than they were. I think my only real source of salt in post-CA40k is that heralds on chariots still do not have an updated points cost or profile.
I looked, and it seems she’s PL4: which means 80 points maximum. I think that’s where he got the number he gave me. And if she’s 80, I’ll drop a single seeker and only run 14. Gives me 105 summoning points for either additional chariots or fiends, 3 monsters, 9 chariots, 60 daemonettes, 14 seekers, one new herald and one regular herald in a 2k list. Hits in three waves, and everything is FAST.
Use this stratagem at the end of your first, second, and/or third Movement phase. The unit entering the battlefield this turn (see entering the fray) can be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge.
Does this stratagem make Daemonette bomb a thing ?
Use this stratagem at the end of your first, second, and/or third Movement phase. The unit entering the battlefield this turn (see entering the fray) can be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge.
Does this stratagem make Daemonette bomb a thing ?
timetowaste85 wrote: I’m planning on chariot spam as well. Currently I have eight, planning on 9 plus Heralds on chariots as well for a total of 11.
I have been using chariots a lot since 8th edition started and while they are great, I found they give off diminishing returns if the board has even a decent amount of terrain. They have big bases, not to mention all the spiky, pokey, tonguey bits that extend well beyond the base, and so I have found that any more than 3 tends to get in each others way, especially if you have anything else big competing for front line space. It is also worth keeping in mind that any reasonable amount a elevated terrain essentially hard counters the chariots in to very flamboyant objective holders.
On a side note, I am seeing a lot of lists here referencing seekers and hellflayers, but really I have found exalted chariots to just be completely dominating in terms of what you get for your points cost. The exalted gets a total of 16 attacks compared to the 9 of the seeker, those attacks are coming in at ws 2+ instead of 3+ (until it goes down a level from wounds, but at that point the seeker is dead anyway), and it has twice as many wounds for only 30 points more. The hellflayer's axle is nice, but at 6 wounds, it is just so easy to pop I would almost always rather just spend the extra 10 points for the extra 6 wounds. I have been playing with trying some hellflayers with my exalted chariots, but my concern is they will start tripping over each other.
That said, the new points cost makes all the chariots much more attractive than they were. I think my only real source of salt in post-CA40k is that heralds on chariots still do not have an updated points cost or profile.
As far as exalted chariots vs the other ones, it depends on what you're using them for. The attack profiles don't matter much if you're taking the chariots under the assumption that almost every single one of them will be dead by turn 2, turn 3 at the latest, anyway.
The value of the chariots to me is that they're sacrificial lambs for the slower daemonette waves to make it into combat. If any of them actually make it into a squad, maybe clear some chaff, that's just a bonus. But overall I expect them to just die, and at 50ppm for the seeker chariots that's a fine trade-off.
timetowaste85 wrote: I looked, and it seems she’s PL4: which means 80 points maximum. I think that’s where he got the number he gave me. And if she’s 80, I’ll drop a single seeker and only run 14. Gives me 105 summoning points for either additional chariots or fiends, 3 monsters, 9 chariots, 60 daemonettes, 14 seekers, one new herald and one regular herald in a 2k list. Hits in three waves, and everything is FAST.
Her pts were in the BOLS review video a couple pages back. I posted up with he datasheet.
Use this stratagem at the end of your first, second, and/or third Movement phase. The unit entering the battlefield this turn (see entering the fray) can be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge.
Does this stratagem make Daemonette bomb a thing ?
uhmmmm i miss where i found those stratagems
Sadly no. I posted those stratagems back on pg 150 they are specific to the "Wrath & Rapture" missions ONLY.
Aye ohhh, quick one for you fellow Daemon players: is there anything preventing you from starting with 3 of a particular datasheet and summoning more of them on turn 1? (Battle-forged matched play of course) Thanks!
On a very related note, am I the only one that find the Exalted Flamer to be extremely attractive at 70 points? I just can't make my mind up on what unit combo makes the best screen: Plaguebearers, Rhinos, or Plagueburst Crawlers.
magodedisco wrote: Aye ohhh, quick one for you fellow Daemon players: is there anything preventing you from starting with 3 of a particular datasheet and summoning more of them on turn 1? (Battle-forged matched play of course) Thanks!
On a very related note, am I the only one that find the Exalted Flamer to be extremely attractive at 70 points? I just can't make my mind up on what unit combo makes the best screen: Plaguebearers, Rhinos, or Plagueburst Crawlers.
No. If you have, for instance, 3 Hellflayers you can summon additional Hellflayers. Summoning is not bound to the "rule of 3".
The 'rule of three' is a list-building restriction and at the list-building stage those Chariots don't exist; they're Reinforcement Points, or whatever the term is.
Further to that, in the FAQ they clarified that if a "unique" daemon unit dies during a game, provided you have the reinforcement points available, you can summon that character onto the battlefield (eg The Masque of Slaanesh, Be'lakor etc)
Raichase wrote: Further to that, in the FAQ they clarified that if a "unique" daemon unit dies during a game, provided you have the reinforcement points available, you can summon that character onto the battlefield (eg The Masque of Slaanesh, Be'lakor etc)
Another thing I think people do not know about summoning:
There is nowhere in the rule that states that you need to name or clarify what unit you are summoning, only what God alligance it belong to. This mean that you can say tzeentch, roll the dice and then decide what unit it summons. For example if i choose tzeentch and my plan is to summon a loc. I unfortunally roll a total of 12 and choose to summon a couple of flamers instead
CupOfBuckets wrote: Another thing I think people do not know about summoning:
There is nowhere in the rule that states that you need to name or clarify what unit you are summoning, only what God alligance it belong to. This mean that you can say tzeentch, roll the dice and then decide what unit it summons. For example if i choose tzeentch and my plan is to summon a loc. I unfortunally roll a total of 12 and choose to summon a couple of flamers instead
This is an important point too. I mean, summoning isn't great. It's certainly not going to become competitive any time soon, however this distinction is very important in the example you've given above. On the few times I dabbled in summoning, I was chucking the dice down saying "Nurgle" and knowing I had points set aside for every daemon model I owned. The dice determined how big and what unit I brought onto the table (only to be shot to pieces or spend the next two turns catching up to the battle). Despite the lack of flexibility, I'll throw CP's down for a sure-thing deepstriking unit anyday of the week.
I have used summoning sparingly before, normally with thousand sons for a changecaster or changling. The major issue with summoning is your chr and the summoned unit can not move in the movement phase. So that means you want to summon something that doesnt need to move to be useful, so a caster or something with ranged attacks.
Pink horrors are an option but their range isnt the best and are better used as a bomb attack.
Skull cannons are an option. Cheap, effective, and hit on 4's coming in.
Soul grinders are just.... meh.
I suppose you could grab a defiler or forgefiend as they are demons, but unless your running a chaos detachment you wont have access to the stratagems that make them amazing.
Azuza001 wrote: I have used summoning sparingly before, normally with thousand sons for a changecaster or changling. The major issue with summoning is your chr and the summoned unit can not move in the movement phase. So that means you want to summon something that doesnt need to move to be useful, so a caster or something with ranged attacks.
Pink horrors are an option but their range isnt the best and are better used as a bomb attack.
Skull cannons are an option. Cheap, effective, and hit on 4's coming in.
Soul grinders are just.... meh.
I suppose you could grab a defiler or forgefiend as they are demons, but unless your running a chaos detachment you wont have access to the stratagems that make them amazing.
You have to have the Daemonic Ritual rule to be summoned.
I find it's pretty useful when most of your army is R&H. Not so much when your army is mostly Daemons or Heretic Astartes.
It also gets more useful the bigger your collection of Daemons is. As of right now, I can only Summon Slaanesh Daemons because that's all I possess, but being able to pick almost any non-GD Daemon unit from the Codex is a great boon 'cause you can tailor the unit to Summon to the specific threat you're facing.
Small point of order re Summoning, you can't Summon Daemons from another God if you are already aligned with a God. A Lord with a Mark of Slaanesh can't Summon Tzeentch Daemons, for example, and a Herald of Tzeentch can't Summon Khorne Daemons.
Azuza001 wrote: I have used summoning sparingly before, normally with thousand sons for a changecaster or changling. The major issue with summoning is your chr and the summoned unit can not move in the movement phase. So that means you want to summon something that doesnt need to move to be useful, so a caster or something with ranged attacks.
Pink horrors are an option but their range isnt the best and are better used as a bomb attack.
Skull cannons are an option. Cheap, effective, and hit on 4's coming in.
Soul grinders are just.... meh.
I suppose you could grab a defiler or forgefiend as they are demons, but unless your running a chaos detachment you wont have access to the stratagems that make them amazing.
You have to have the Daemonic Ritual rule to be summoned.
Daemon Engines do NOT have that rule.
Good catch, i thought they had it.
As for list tayloring though summoning that doesnt work because of 1 massive issue with chaos demons....
They all do the same thing in different ways.
Example : out of the classic 4 troop choices (and i would argue our troop choices are all amazing) 3 of them work the same way, they only do damage in close combat. Thats a turn of sitting there doing nothing before moving into position to fight and getting shot at. All 3 are much better at just teleporting in or starting on the field advancing up.
If everything works about the same then whats the point of list tayloring? There just isnt enough difference between the units.
Summoning is only useful for chaos detachments not already deamons. Then mid game summoning can be useful because you can get support on turns 4 or 5 when it could count a lot. (Bam, 3 extra nurglings to hold this objective)
timetowaste85 wrote: I looked, and it seems she’s PL4: which means 80 points maximum. I think that’s where he got the number he gave me. And if she’s 80, I’ll drop a single seeker and only run 14. Gives me 105 summoning points for either additional chariots or fiends, 3 monsters, 9 chariots, 60 daemonettes, 14 seekers, one new herald and one regular herald in a 2k list. Hits in three waves, and everything is FAST.
Her pts were in the BOLS review video a couple pages back. I posted up with he datasheet.
Use this stratagem at the end of your first, second, and/or third Movement phase. The unit entering the battlefield this turn (see entering the fray) can be set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge.
Does this stratagem make Daemonette bomb a thing ?
uhmmmm i miss where i found those stratagems
th Sadly no. I posted those stratagems back on pg 150 they are specific to the "Wrath & Rapture" missions ONLY.
Shame I thought they where for a specialised detachment like the ones in vigilus but for wrath and rapture.
blackmage wrote: really? show me a COMPETITIVE list won something and rely on summoning pls
For what reason?
Being able to find a peanut or two in what is mostly a turd isn't anywhere near the same thing as claiming it's a powerful mechanic that will 100% mean you drive your enemy before you and hear the lamentations of their women.
blackmage wrote: really? show me a COMPETITIVE list won something and rely on summoning pls
For what reason?
Being able to find a peanut or two in what is mostly a turd isn't anywhere near the same thing as claiming it's a powerful mechanic that will 100% mean you drive your enemy before you and hear the lamentations of their women.
wtf mean? maybe works great in your garagehammer sure summoning in 8th is a great mechanic, anyway your answer is enlightining ty.
Summoning was okay before the Smite nerf, as you could summon a ton of cheap Smite batteries (usually Slaanesh heralds) if you had cheap R&H characters to do it (usually Malefic Lords before they got nerfed into the ground). It's not worth it now in matched play, as usually it's better to pay a couple of CP to reliably bring in a unit of Daemons.
blackmage wrote: really? show me a COMPETITIVE list won something and rely on summoning pls
It's a conversation about summoning dude. This means it's not a conversation about absolute competitive play
Personally my undivided daemons collection is getting big enough to where I could see myself running some pretty fun goofy lists based on summoning. Maybe with Abaddon to benefit from having all 4 gods.
blackmage wrote: really? show me a COMPETITIVE list won something and rely on summoning pls
For what reason?
Being able to find a peanut or two in what is mostly a turd isn't anywhere near the same thing as claiming it's a powerful mechanic that will 100% mean you drive your enemy before you and hear the lamentations of their women.
wtf mean? maybe works great in your garagehammer sure summoning in 8th is a great mechanic, anyway your answer is enlightining ty.
It means you are apparently incapable of reading and understanding what I actually wrote. Perhaps there's a language barrier. Maybe you don't watch Arnie movies.
At no point have I claimed that Summoning either "works great" or is "a great mechanic" and in fact I explicitly said it was a turd.
I always chuckle at the fact that GW seems to think the issue with summoning is the fact that it's too unreliable. They keep releasing ways to get higher on the board with your rolls.
What they fail to realize is that it isn't so much that it is random, but that it is strictly worse than just spending CP to deepstrike what you want, and they can't move after coming in. It's a LOT Of hoops to jump through for a unit that doesn't cost CP.
vaklor4 wrote: What they fail to realize is that it isn't so much that it is random, but that it is strictly worse than just spending CP to deepstrike what you want, and they can't move after coming in. It's a LOT Of hoops to jump through for a unit that doesn't cost CP.
Not to mention you need to get the character in position a turn early, and have them survive! I miss the old days of summoning in which you just dumped a paid for unit in reserve, but they had to come on in base to base contact with an icon.
Seems that the only useful part of summoning now is getting past the “rule of three”. Nothing more, nothing less. Cuz anything other than that could be done by command points.
Hm, I've never used summoning before, I find it not very useful since not only you resign from movement, you can fail the roll and not to summon anything or what you wanted, you pay the reinforcement points and if you're unlucky you can suffer from mortal wounds on doubles and triples, from my perspective there's more to lose than to gain.
Still, a question occured in my head following your discussion. Having that you cannot DS during the first turn now, how does this rule apply to summoning since this is still reinforcement we're talking about?
We can't summon T1, period. Like you said, they arrive as reinforcements. The summoning rules would be kinda fun if they ignored the tactical reserves rule but unfortunately they don't.
EDIT: Nvm, I suppose with the wording of the Tactical Reserves rule summoned units don't count.
The only benefit is to bypass rule of 3 and to have flexibility on what unit to summon if you have a large daemon collection.
I can't think of any non-troops unit worth having more than 3 of tbh. Lugging around a large enough collection of daemons for the summoning flexibility to be worth it seems impractical.
You may have missed it, but the new tactical reserves rule doesn't prevent Daemons from being summoned T1 anymore. So go for your life. It could be useful for spamming an army of Enrapturesses (no idea if that would be any good though)
So what is the conlcusion here and how do you justify it? I mean, I've also checked the FAQ2 and I'm still confused.
From the FAQ perspective it does change the tactical reserve description where the description goes as follows "Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements.", whereas on the Daemonig Ritual one reads: "This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army..."
On the other hand, it does not state that it is a tactical reserve as at that point you do not know what models you want to summon.
Having that it does not use wording tactical reserve, it means that another advantage (slight, but still) is that the following rule "Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed." does not apply to summoning at all.
As I'm playing pure daemon army - for now tzeentch and khorne but waiting for Slaanesh to come with a new box - I find the use of summoning only for:
- character of khorne being in cc does not use movement and summons other cc daemons to back him up. Even though they cannot move, they can charge in, thus help him in the fight.
- exalted flamers as characters may summon units of brimstone horrors to shield them, resiging from movement since they will be shooting their heavy profile flamer
Anything else? Highly situational. I'm looking forward however to investigate summons on Slaanesh units.
Thing is, if youre summoning beyond turn 3 then you also are playing at a disadvantage the entire time. I dont think bringing in the last 200 points of your army on t4 is really worth it, when that bunch could have just been helping from the very start.
I just checked the Big FAQ 2 and wasn't able to find anything regarding summoning. Any idea where they would have made the exception for daemons?
EDIT: Nvm, I suppose with the wording of the Tactical Reserves rule summoned units don't count.
Roll up to 3 dice – this is your summoning
roll. You can summon one new unit
with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the
battlefield that has a Power Rating equal to
or less than the total result so long as it has
the same Chaos God keyword you chose
at the start (in the case of units that have a
choice of allegiance, such as Furies, the unit
when summoned will have this keyword).
This unit is treated as reinforcements for
your army
pretty clear they are REINFORCEMENT so no turn 1 summoning i guess, tactical reserves wording is absolutely clear
BlaxicanX wrote: Horror spam seems like your best bet. Herald buffs plus flickering flames means you're wounding on 3s with like 60 shots from one horror units.
I think its 90 shots wouldnt it? That is, if its a 20 strength horror unit like 60 would suggest.
I just checked the Big FAQ 2 and wasn't able to find anything regarding summoning. Any idea where they would have made the exception for daemons?
EDIT: Nvm, I suppose with the wording of the Tactical Reserves rule summoned units don't count.
Roll up to 3 dice – this is your summoning
roll. You can summon one new unit
with the Daemonic Ritual ability to the
battlefield that has a Power Rating equal to
or less than the total result so long as it has
the same Chaos God keyword you chose
at the start (in the case of units that have a
choice of allegiance, such as Furies, the unit
when summoned will have this keyword).
This unit is treated as reinforcements for
your army
pretty clear they are REINFORCEMENT so no turn 1 summoning i guess, tactical reserves wording is absolutely clear
Yes that's how I read it too. Seems like people argue that because summoned units aren't "units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game" the tactical reserves rule doesn't apply to them.
I actually don't care about this subject enough to seek more clarity on it and I suspect GW doesn't either. I'm just accepting the fact that the daemons codex was written with tons of errors and ambiguities for people to argue over for eternity.
summon rule state how units are considered, "treated a reinforcement", if they want argue on something cleary written they can do, another good reason why i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems.
Tbh even if they aren't reinforcements for a few rules, not moving on the turn they come in, locking an HQ choice to not moving and costing reinforcement points all makes them still super duper stupid bad, even in garagehammer standards.
blackmage wrote: summon rule state how units are considered, "treated a reinforcement", if they want argue on something cleary written they can do, another good reason why i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems.
Yeah, it's true.
You never get nineteen-page threads on this very forum about how a team that has won one of the massive events four of the last five years has done so by cheating, being unpleasant and exploiting their friendship with the judges.
blackmage wrote: i play in ETC never had such drama so i confirm what i said thanks.
What you actually said was "i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems." You didn't mention the ETC at all, until it was pointed out that your latest statement, like many of your previous ones, was overbroad and unsupportable.
It took me less than thirty seconds on google to discover that there are in fact numerous documented instances of people cheating in ETC events.
Okay, so i'm determined to work a brass scorpion into a mono khorne list.
Advice on how to compensate for its fairly significant points inefficiencies? Should I spam letters?
If so, how many per squad is recommended? Some large blobs + some small?
Do I need to have skarbrand around for morale immunity?
weaver9 wrote: Okay, so i'm determined to work a brass scorpion into a mono khorne list.
Advice on how to compensate for its fairly significant points inefficiencies? Should I spam letters?
If so, how many per squad is recommended? Some large blobs + some small?
Do I need to have skarbrand around for morale immunity?
Following.
I want it do it... probably terrible.
Mathing it out, it can survive one round of shooting against my mates UM gunline If it uses the Iron warriors 6+++ stratagem.
Letters seem good. A max size one for bombing at least. Skarbrand is a points sink and you really can't afford two in one list.
Warlord traits loci and relics of khorne all stack pretty well. But nothing for durability that I can find apart from one strat.
Maybe deploy some Oblits? They’re a pretty tempting target for anti-tank - every 3W hit removes an incoming attack. If they’re ignored, they can advance besides Khârn and shoot with 75% accuracy. Amusing incidental Crimson Crown synergy (which makes them an even better distraction carnifex), too.
3 oblits is 195 pts, not exactly distraction carnifex level there.
A single dual fist hellbrute is 100 pts, thats a distraction. Make it a renegade chapter one and it will move 9-15 inches and can still charge. Perfect distraction carnifex at the right price point.
Azuza001 wrote: 3 oblits is 195 pts, not exactly distraction carnifex level there.
A single dual fist hellbrute is 100 pts, thats a distraction. Make it a renegade chapter one and it will move 9-15 inches and can still charge. Perfect distraction carnifex at the right price point.
And you can strap 2x combi-bolters to that brute and make it super distracting
So i just built up 30 bloodletters... not sure what list to plug them into. My main issue is my meta has a lot of fliers, so their effectiveness is neutered.
Yeah bloodletters are great for just about everything...except fliers lol.
In gameplay terms bloodletters are pretty much a direct damage spell. Very reliable lean damage with no staying power. Using them is CP hungry but that's not a problem for our 18CP triple battalion builds stuffed to the brim with our amazing troops choices. We seriously might have the best troops selection in the game.
slave.entity wrote: Yeah bloodletters are great for just about everything...except fliers lol.
In gameplay terms bloodletters are pretty much a direct damage spell. Very reliable lean damage with no staying power. Using them is CP hungry but that's not a problem for our 18CP triple battalion builds stuffed to the brim with our amazing troops choices. We seriously might have the best troops selection in the game.
No might about it. We do have the best troop selection in the game.
What other army has troop choices where all options can be good options depending on what type of list you want to run? Thats our problem, our hqs and troops are amazing and our fast attack, elite, and heavy support is horrible.
slave.entity wrote: Yeah bloodletters are great for just about everything...except fliers lol.
In gameplay terms bloodletters are pretty much a direct damage spell. Very reliable lean damage with no staying power. Using them is CP hungry but that's not a problem for our 18CP triple battalion builds stuffed to the brim with our amazing troops choices. We seriously might have the best troops selection in the game.
The only issue is that a triple battalion demons list wouldn't win in a diverse competitive meta; mostly because you have to spend a lot of points on "tax" units for the CP. It seems like you can run the letters off of 3 CP (1 CP for banner, 2 CP to DS) which isn't really that bad seeing as they can trash a knight. Plus Orks (generally speaking) can handle Demons very, very well, especially because Dakka, Dakka, Dakka ignores the -1 to hit on Plaguebearers; Lootas can take apart a PB wall quickly.
I'm looking more toward a balanced list to plug them into. Thinking of running 3x Contemptors w/ dual butcher and havoc in an AL Vanguard with a vanilla lord, a Khorne Demon patrol for the Skullreaver prince (or use these as a basis for a mixed battalion) and 30x letters, but I'm unsure. A Khorne battalion of 3x 10 Letters seems like a waste... I'm really interested to see how people generally run them
I've been running them as a blob of 30 in a mixed daemons detachment alongside 2x20 pinks and 30x plaguebearers. It's hard for me to see them run any other way barring something like a Skarbrand list where MSU bloodletters could work. Running them under 20 has always basically been a waste of points in my experience and even something like 21-24 doesn't cut it due to overwatch. They are too slow to make it into combat and the models are way too big to hide. Giant 25+ blobs with banner/icon/deep strike is the only way to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure I agree that triple battalion wouldn't win in a diverse meta. The "tax" units daemons have access to are all insanely good and cheap. I honestly wish I had more space left over for HQ slots because the various heralds and nurgle characters are so useful.
What other army has troop choices where all options can be good options depending on what type of list you want to run? Thats our problem, our hqs and troops are amazing and our fast attack, elite, and heavy support is horrible.
Our weakness as a faction is basically shooting. Anything that can efficiently kill daemons at range and/or avoid close combat will destroy us. Luckily this weakness is easily addressed via soup.
Lately I've been finding daemon horde + Ahriman-buffed leviathan to be extremely effective.
slave.entity wrote: I've been running them as a blob of 30 in a mixed daemons detachment alongside 2x20 pinks and 30x plaguebearers. It's hard for me to see them run any other way barring something like a Skarbrand list where MSU bloodletters could work. Running them under 20 has always basically been a waste of points in my experience and even something like 21-24 doesn't cut it due to overwatch. They are too slow to make it into combat and the models are way too big to hide. Giant 25+ blobs with banner/icon/deep strike is the only way to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure I agree that triple battalion wouldn't win in a diverse meta. The "tax" units daemons have access to are all insanely good and cheap. I honestly wish I had more space left over for HQ slots because the various heralds and nurgle characters are so useful.
What other army has troop choices where all options can be good options depending on what type of list you want to run? Thats our problem, our hqs and troops are amazing and our fast attack, elite, and heavy support is horrible.
Our weakness as a faction is basically shooting. Anything that can efficiently kill daemons at range and/or avoid close combat will destroy us. Luckily this weakness is easily addressed via soup.
Lately I've been finding daemon horde + Ahriman-buffed leviathan to be extremely effective.
I'd like to see it win; I think theres a reason you don't see it. For example, I found facing Grey Knights with 3x Grandmasters to be extremely hard with Nurgle Demons; the D3 damage guns with a bazillion shots (psilencers I believe) did a lot of damage to my meat shields, I won solely because I played the mission.
It also depends if its ITC format, etc. I know ETC format demons do reasonably well, but as you pointed out, you are running a soup list with Ahriman and Levithans. To me a triple battalion won't work because Demons largest weakness is in the shooting phase, and shooting is required to deal with some niche threats (the DA fliers, the vulture gatling cannon fliers, etc.) unless you can get a demon prince in close and he can drop it in a single combat phase.
I do agree we have some of the best troop choices in the game, but they can't carry us like they once did. Ork's demolished close to 40 of my 60 plaguebearers in a single shooting phase with Lootas. Pink Horrors are awesome, but they're essentially a squad of combi-bolters; not very effective against the big stuff like Knights. I do agree with your idea that Bloodletters are essentially a one-use bullet; you target them at something and it dies. But the rest of the list needs to form around being able to tackle other threats as well.
Like you mentioned, Levithans with BCA's are great ranged firepower, 1k Sons have mind bullets in spades, DG has various ranged platforms (all the dreads, PBC's)... I just think Demons by themselves lack the tools to TAC and come out on top, too many bad matchups.
Yes, pure daemons seem like they can be very hit or miss depending on whether or not your opponent can deal with plaguebearers.
What I'm talking about is running some sort of triple battalion comp to fund your daemon bombs. Ideally, one detachment has Ahriman and at least 1 TSons DP in it. The other detachments should be built around either more TSons DPs or a Skullreaver DP, with Scrivener and other heralds filling them out to meet battalion requirements. It's the fact that heralds and troops are so flexible, useful, and cheap that allows us fill battalions easily.
18CP lets me auto pass morale every turn and the only valid shooting targets on the board T1 are the T8 4++ TSon leviathan with -1 to hit, the -2 to hit plaguebearers, and the cultists/nurglings. The leviathan also moves and shoots at BS2 thanks to Prescience. Starting T2 the pinks start dropping down to clear screens and make room for the bloodletters which generally nuke the biggest threat T3. After T3 anything left standing dies to the 6 psykers smiting, who are still probably untargetable since it's unlikely that the opponent has killed all daemon troops due to auto-pass morale. So far I haven't had any trouble demolishing flyers thanks to the Leviathan + smite spam + the DPs.
For knights I swap out one of the Tsons DPs for a Skullreaver DP but I haven't seem them much in my local meta so I've found that the second Tsons DP is generally more well-rounded.
Mono daemons will always be weaker than cherry picked soup but that's to be expected. It's the same as all of the other soup factions. Ynnari > pure CWE, DE/CWE > pure DE, Imperial soup > pure IG/pure marines/etc. Daemon soup is probably one of the strongest builds Chaos has access to.
What I'm finding though is mixed daemons in the context of competitive soup builds is actually really really strong. I'm not the most experienced 40k player or anything but I've been driving the above list at my local store and it has been steamrolling.
Weirdly enough, I've found that the least necessary things to have in these builds are the daemonic loci. The Nurgle one is great for pure Nurgle lists but outside of that I find the loci to be in the "nice but not absolutely necessary" category. The success rate on a Banner of Blood charge without CP reroll is already above 85%. And the Tzeentch loci is useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing that pure daemons have trouble with: tough beatsticks with high saves/high invulns.
Luckily 18" Death Hexes with +3 to cast are a thing.
slave.entity wrote: Yes, pure daemons seem like they can be very hit or miss depending on whether or not your opponent can deal with plaguebearers.
What I'm talking about is running some sort of triple battalion comp to fund your daemon bombs. Ideally, one detachment has Ahriman and at least 1 TSons DP in it. The other detachments should be built around either more TSons DPs or a Skullreaver DP, with Scrivener and other heralds filling them out to meet battalion requirements. It's the fact that heralds and troops are so flexible, useful, and cheap that allows us fill battalions easily.
18CP lets me auto pass morale every turn and the only valid shooting targets on the board T1 are the T8 4++ TSon leviathan with -1 to hit, the -2 to hit plaguebearers, and the cultists/nurglings. The leviathan also moves and shoots at BS2 thanks to Prescience. Starting T2 the pinks start dropping down to clear screens and make room for the bloodletters which generally nuke the biggest threat T3. After T3 anything left standing dies to the 6 psykers smiting, who are still probably untargetable since it's unlikely that the opponent has killed all daemon troops due to auto-pass morale. So far I haven't had any trouble demolishing flyers thanks to the Leviathan + smite spam + the DPs.
For knights I swap out one of the Tsons DPs for a Skullreaver DP but I haven't seem them much in my local meta so I've found that the second Tsons DP is generally more well-rounded.
Mono daemons will always be weaker than cherry picked soup but that's to be expected. It's the same as all of the other soup factions. Ynnari > pure CWE, DE/CWE > pure DE, Imperial soup > pure IG/pure marines/etc. Daemon soup is probably one of the strongest builds Chaos has access to.
What I'm finding though is mixed daemons in the context of competitive soup builds is actually really really strong. I'm not the most experienced 40k player or anything but I've been driving the above list at my local store and it has been steamrolling.
Weirdly enough, I've found that the least necessary things to have in these builds are the daemonic loci. The Nurgle one is great for pure Nurgle lists but outside of that I find the loci to be in the "nice but not absolutely necessary" category. The success rate on a Banner of Blood charge without CP reroll is already above 85%. And the Tzeentch loci is useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing that pure daemons have trouble with: tough beatsticks with high saves/high invulns.
Luckily 18" Death Hexes with +3 to cast are a thing.
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
blackmage wrote: i play in ETC never had such drama so i confirm what i said thanks.
What you actually said was "i play only competitive, there never that kind of problems." You didn't mention the ETC at all, until it was pointed out that your latest statement, like many of your previous ones, was overbroad and unsupportable.
It took me less than thirty seconds on google to discover that there are in fact numerous documented instances of people cheating in ETC events.
I never had if you keep lurking internet then trying to show the opposite you can do, i personally in about 1 hundred of games in 8th edition in ETC, never had such problems, period.
Ps: you have a nice button called block use it and save pain ty
Something i have found is the argument of the skullreaver dp vs the king of blades dp vs knights.
Most knigts are found in soup list are made a character so to get the warlord trait and artifact for free. That means the dp with the sword gets 5 str 8 ap-4 3d attacks hitting on 2's rerolling 1's and probably wound on 4's rerolling. The axe gives you 5 str 10 attacks so wounding on 3's rerolling wounds vs titanics doing d6dmg.
Myself i think the sword is more useful as chrs are more prevalent than titanic units. That and flat 3 is better than d6.
slave.entity wrote: Yes, pure daemons seem like they can be very hit or miss depending on whether or not your opponent can deal with plaguebearers.
What I'm talking about is running some sort of triple battalion comp to fund your daemon bombs. Ideally, one detachment has Ahriman and at least 1 TSons DP in it. The other detachments should be built around either more TSons DPs or a Skullreaver DP, with Scrivener and other heralds filling them out to meet battalion requirements. It's the fact that heralds and troops are so flexible, useful, and cheap that allows us fill battalions easily.
18CP lets me auto pass morale every turn and the only valid shooting targets on the board T1 are the T8 4++ TSon leviathan with -1 to hit, the -2 to hit plaguebearers, and the cultists/nurglings. The leviathan also moves and shoots at BS2 thanks to Prescience. Starting T2 the pinks start dropping down to clear screens and make room for the bloodletters which generally nuke the biggest threat T3. After T3 anything left standing dies to the 6 psykers smiting, who are still probably untargetable since it's unlikely that the opponent has killed all daemon troops due to auto-pass morale. So far I haven't had any trouble demolishing flyers thanks to the Leviathan + smite spam + the DPs.
For knights I swap out one of the Tsons DPs for a Skullreaver DP but I haven't seem them much in my local meta so I've found that the second Tsons DP is generally more well-rounded.
Mono daemons will always be weaker than cherry picked soup but that's to be expected. It's the same as all of the other soup factions. Ynnari > pure CWE, DE/CWE > pure DE, Imperial soup > pure IG/pure marines/etc. Daemon soup is probably one of the strongest builds Chaos has access to.
What I'm finding though is mixed daemons in the context of competitive soup builds is actually really really strong. I'm not the most experienced 40k player or anything but I've been driving the above list at my local store and it has been steamrolling.
Weirdly enough, I've found that the least necessary things to have in these builds are the daemonic loci. The Nurgle one is great for pure Nurgle lists but outside of that I find the loci to be in the "nice but not absolutely necessary" category. The success rate on a Banner of Blood charge without CP reroll is already above 85%. And the Tzeentch loci is useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing that pure daemons have trouble with: tough beatsticks with high saves/high invulns.
Luckily 18" Death Hexes with +3 to cast are a thing.
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
yes right but... missions are won mostly on objectives, maybe ITC is different but here have a large reliable and durable core of troops is like gold, i run 90/120 Pb's i found in many matches only 1 list that dispatched them all from the table (and needed 5 whole turns and some very bad save rolls from my side), and still succumbed to 60 letters and Dp', i have 18 Cp too im just thunking to switch 20 letters for 30 demonettes+herald and/or masque, pretty better to rip apart large infantry mobs like tyr orks or other demons, with slaanesh stratagems/traits and psy power you can greatly reduce units melee power, i tested against orks and i saw what they can do, 91 attacks rerolling to hit (if needed) generating extra attacks at 6+ and can hit on 2+ more than enough to crush more or less anything.
Azuza001 wrote: Something i have found is the argument of the skullreaver dp vs the king of blades dp vs knights.
Most knigts are found in soup list are made a character so to get the warlord trait and artifact for free. That means the dp with the sword gets 5 str 8 ap-4 3d attacks hitting on 2's rerolling 1's and probably wound on 4's rerolling. The axe gives you 5 str 10 attacks so wounding on 3's rerolling wounds vs titanics doing d6dmg.
Myself i think the sword is more useful as chrs are more prevalent than titanic units. That and flat 3 is better than d6.
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
I can't imagine a Culexus being much of a problem when I have so many casters with the option to cast at +3. I also do have Eldar in my meta and they get wrecked by simply not having enough shots to remove each blob. Don't get me wrong, there are some meta lists I haven't played against that scare me, but those aren't it. Large blobs of fearless daemon hordes basically invalidate enemy heavy weapons which is often times most of the enemy list given our anti-knight meta. I've also played againt Orks once and tabled them, though it wasn't the competitive loota star list.
I'd like to play against more knights but sadly I haven't encountered them much yet. With Skullreaver and bloodletters and the massed, fearless invulns I'd expect to do well however.
The list that scares me the most is the Castellan/Catachan/Bullgryn list because it kind of does a similar thing that my list does except possibly better.
I'm not a fan of 60 plaguebearers except in pure Nurgle builds and even then it doesn't seem like enough to put real pressure on your opponent's troop clearing ability since they will always target the unbuffed squad. It's not an issue with 90 or 120 plaguebearers since that starts to exceed a threshold in the amount of enemy anti-infantry, but 60 seems like it presents the most obvious counterplay to your opponent.
With just 30 plaguebearers we force the opponent to waste their quality shots on -2 to hit. Likewise with just 1 leviathan dreadnought (instead of 2 levi, or 3 contemptor) we force the opponent to fire at the one target that's been buffed to hell by Ahriman, maximizing the value we get from all of our offensive/defensive spells.
I'm generally not a fan of any of the non-Tsons DPs because it's really hard to beat cast 2 deny 1...and unnerfed smite spam... and +6" cast range... and Cabalistic Focus. The only exception I make here is for Skullreaver but that's definitely a meta pick and doesn't do as well against non-knight/non-heavy armor spam.
strength is 11 o charge and 10 normally, skullreaver Dp wound on 3 rerolling anything, not counting he can deliver mortal wounds, and ap -4 that's huge (wont let anything without a TSI save), 3 flat damge can be better average, but that monster excel killing big things and d6 is useful, demons dont need a skullreaver Dp to kill characters they have plenty of tools to erase character from the table, they need to delete Ik's or large veichles. Every model have a specific task in a demon list, that's why they arent so brainless to play.
blackmage wrote: im just thunking to switch 20 letters for 30 demonettes+herald and/or masque, pretty better to rip apart large infantry mobs like tyr orks or other demons, with slaanesh stratagems/traits and psy power you can greatly reduce units melee power, i tested against orks and i saw what they can do, 91 attacks rerolling to hit (if needed) generating extra attacks at 6+ and can hit on 2+ more than enough to crush more or less anything.
I've been thinking about this too recently. Normally I use 40x pinks for guaranteed 120x S4 shots to clear away screen but at 6 points each daemonettes are looking a lot more attractive. Really my whole list depends on me having enough daemon bombs to clear away the screens T2 exposing the juicy innards for the Khorne daemons to rip apart. I've won all my games with it so far, ITC and Eternal War/Maelstrom. But as I said I'm fairly new to the competitive scene and haven't had a chance to run it against some of the top tier lists. The strongest lists I've beaten with it so far are DE/Harlequin haywire spam and DE/CWE soup.
Skullreaver only rerolls against titanic. I forgot to add the +1 str and attack on the charge. That actually helps my point, str 9 vs str 11 is wounding on 3's, both weapons are ap-4, but one rerolls wounds vs chrs the other vs titanic. I still think flat 3 is better than d6 here. The only extra point the axe gets is d3 mortal wounds on wound roll of 6.
So point still stands, you will find chrs more often than titanics and both weapons will mess a chr knight up right quick in cc (and as i mentioned you normally see big knights in soup lists where they are a chr). If your building a list for tournament use this is a better loadout option, or at least a viable loadout option for your dp to run. Personally i run 30 bloodletters and a herald with the crown as my knight killer option and the dp is a backup.
When you're dealing with 24 wounds, needing only 7 successful wounds as opposed to 8 is better. Not to mention, you can spend a CP to reroll a low damage roll.
blackmage wrote: Every model have a specific task in a demon list, that's why they arent so brainless to play.
This is what I've been finding most engaging about competitive daemons. Just having access to a variety of highly specialized, highly effective troops units makes list building a lot of fun. IIRC last month Daemon soup was the 4th top placing faction in ITC right behind DE, Imp Soup, and Ynnari. And for good reason.
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Azuza001 wrote: Skullreaver only rerolls against titanic. I forgot to add the +1 str and attack on the charge. That actually helps my point, str 9 vs str 11 is wounding on 3's, both weapons are ap-4, but one rerolls wounds vs chrs the other vs titanic. I still think flat 3 is better than d6 here. The only extra point the axe gets is d3 mortal wounds on wound roll of 6.
So point still stands, you will find chrs more often than titanics and both weapons will mess a chr knight up right quick in cc (and as i mentioned you normally see big knights in soup lists where they are a chr). If your building a list for tournament use this is a better loadout option, or at least a viable loadout option for your dp to run. Personally i run 30 bloodletters and a herald with the crown as my knight killer option and the dp is a backup.
Khorne DPs are only worth it because of Skullreaver. Skullreaver is only worth it in a titanic-heavy meta. The mortal wounds on 6s can be insane sometimes. Totally anecdotal, but last time my Skullreaver fought titanic it inflicted 33 wounds in one swing. Didn't even have to Frenetic Bloodlust.
Otherwise, speaking in pure competitive terms, another TSons DP is far more useful, and basically does the same thing against your average non-titanic targets.
Ah, I see your ploy. I suppose you don't encounter many Culexus Assassins or Eldar in your meta?
The issue with Demons is that they are really a one trick pony; they do one thing really well and thats spam troops. But their troops, in all honesty, are not that hard to kill; many things could care less about -1 or -2 to hit PB's, if anything they will ignore them and kill other stuff first (especially because its just one unit, and its only moving 5 +d6). Even using two units of 30 they go down quickly to a well built list, or Orks. Orks are really good at chopping up plaguebearers.
I have found Demons are good at holding the line, and thats about it. The Demon princes are definitely better than CSM ones, but they are still subpar when compared to Death Guard and 1k sons princes. I built the Bloodletters with the intent to try them (eventually), but my meta is heavily top-tier oriented; meaning a good handful of players use the "best" lists from their codices to good effect. Multiple people use 7+ flier IG, Castellan lists are common and several 3+ knights lists, the Ork players utilize Lootas and tons of boyz with 18+ CP to run them, and seems like the new "hotness" is going to be Intercessor marines and MW spam.
Your list is interesting, definitely not my style, but interesting none the less.
One other thing I'd like to mention; Nurgles Locus is very, very good when used properly. Your Plaguebearers can be D5 with Virulent Blessing rolling 6's with a banner for a turn. I use it often to make my PBC's spitters D2, it works on nurgle demon vehicles as well
I can't imagine a Culexus being much of a problem when I have so many casters with the option to cast at +3. I also do have Eldar in my meta and they get wrecked by simply not having enough shots to remove each blob. Don't get me wrong, there are some meta lists I haven't played against that scare me, but those aren't it. Large blobs of fearless daemon hordes basically invalidate enemy heavy weapons which is often times most of the enemy list given our anti-knight meta. I've also played againt Orks once and tabled them, though it wasn't the competitive loota star list.
I'd like to play against more knights but sadly I haven't encountered them much yet. With Skullreaver and bloodletters and the massed, fearless invulns I'd expect to do well however.
The list that scares me the most is the Castellan/Catachan/Bullgryn list because it kind of does a similar thing that my list does except possibly better.
I'm not a fan of 60 plaguebearers except in pure Nurgle builds and even then it doesn't seem like enough to put real pressure on your opponent's troop clearing ability since they will always target the unbuffed squad. It's not an issue with 90 or 120 plaguebearers since that starts to exceed a threshold in the amount of enemy anti-infantry, but 60 seems like it presents the most obvious counterplay to your opponent.
With just 30 plaguebearers we force the opponent to waste their quality shots on -2 to hit. Likewise with just 1 leviathan dreadnought (instead of 2 levi, or 3 contemptor) we force the opponent to fire at the one target that's been buffed to hell by Ahriman, maximizing the value we get from all of our offensive/defensive spells.
I'm generally not a fan of any of the non-Tsons DPs because it's really hard to beat cast 2 deny 1...and unnerfed smite spam... and +6" cast range... and Cabalistic Focus. The only exception I make here is for Skullreaver but that's definitely a meta pick and doesn't do as well against non-knight/non-heavy armor spam.
Have you been running mostly DG/Nurgle daemons?
I post a lot of battle reports here, I run a mix depending on the day and how I'm feeling; but mostly testing different ideas against a wide variety of opponents. Generally I run Nurgle Demons just as interference with my kill power coming from various sources.
That said, obviously you haven't faced the stupid assassin, because yes... he really is a big deal for a list like yours that revolves around psychic powers to operate, most of your stuff will be -1 or -2 to cast aside from whomever you strat. As well, a Nurgle Demon prince with the Supporating Plate is probably one of the best CC threats in the game, not to mention a massive force multiplier in the Death Guard force. You being fearless negates the reason you take instruments; as you cannot roll then make them fearless to circumvent not rolling a 1 (which you also take a piper for...) Savy opponents won't target a single unit, rather split fire to force you to morale multiple units and hopefully kill off something.
I'm not saying your list is stupid or anything, its not my style, and definitely wouldn't fare well in my area. Also, as a counter point, some lists (i.e. Prophets of Flesh) are top tier mono-codex lists, and your going to see way more marines now with the massive points drops. I actually face Grey Knights enough that they make me regret taking mostly demon stuff... rerolling everything against us and having Dread Knights that fight again after you kill them is annoying.
yes right but... missions are won mostly on objectives, maybe ITC is different but here have a large reliable and durable core of troops is like gold, i run 90/120 Pb's i found in many matches only 1 list that dispatched them all from the table (and needed 5 whole turns and some very bad save rolls from my side), and still succumbed to 60 letters and Dp', i have 18 Cp too im just thunking to switch 20 letters for 30 demonettes+herald and/or masque, pretty better to rip apart large infantry mobs like tyr orks or other demons, with slaanesh stratagems/traits and psy power you can greatly reduce units melee power, i tested against orks and i saw what they can do, 91 attacks rerolling to hit (if needed) generating extra attacks at 6+ and can hit on 2+ more than enough to crush more or less anything.
ITC is massively different; ITC you pick the secondary objectives when you start the game based on your list and your opponents. As well, ITC implements a timer now (you and your opponent each get only 90 minutes). ETC is very objective heavy, while ITC balances killing power with your ability to stay around; you score points each turn for killing AND holding objectives, but not more than 1 of each point; so holding multiple objectives isn't a massive deal. Many people run completely elite armies and fare just fine.. Don Hoosons list for LVO seems like it will be 3x Chaos Fliers, 3x Deredeo Dreads, 3x PBC, and a Demon Prince with 10 Terminators
Azuza001 wrote: Skullreaver only rerolls against titanic. I forgot to add the +1 str and attack on the charge. That actually helps my point, str 9 vs str 11 is wounding on 3's, both weapons are ap-4, but one rerolls wounds vs chrs the other vs titanic. I still think flat 3 is better than d6 here. The only extra point the axe gets is d3 mortal wounds on wound roll of 6.
So point still stands, you will find chrs more often than titanics and both weapons will mess a chr knight up right quick in cc (and as i mentioned you normally see big knights in soup lists where they are a chr). If your building a list for tournament use this is a better loadout option, or at least a viable loadout option for your dp to run. Personally i run 30 bloodletters and a herald with the crown as my knight killer option and the dp is a backup.
Khorne DPs are only worth it because of Skullreaver. Skullreaver is only worth it in a titanic-heavy meta. The mortal wounds on 6s can be insane sometimes. Totally anecdotal, but last time my Skullreaver fought titanic it inflicted 33 wounds in one swing. Didn't even have to Frenetic Bloodlust.
Otherwise, speaking in pure competitive terms, another TSons DP is far more useful, and basically does the same thing against your average non-titanic targets.
Thing is in a tournament you are locked into a list... so a Skullreaver DP is far more beneficial in a "general" meta sense because you are far more likely to encounter Knights in most areas. If your local meta favors something else, which seems to be the case, then your 1k sons would be a valid choice over it.
Personally, I just run both if I'm using my 1k sons... I rather have Skullreaver and not need it, then not have it when I need it.
I'd love to play against a Culexus list some time. I imagine my list has enough screen to keep it very far away from all of my casters. They always deploy in the backline so it's unlikely that their spells fail to cast due to having High Magister, Ahriman, and +6" cast range.
I'd have pinks clear whatever infantry screen the Culexus is hiding behind while the leviathan gets prescience'd to hit it on 5s and blow it away.
Power armor is not very scary because of bloodletters and pinks both wounding on 3s.
The IG flyer spam list you mentioned does sound scary though.
another fact to consider is Ts Dp need his own detachment you cant use it in a demon detachment, playing 2 letters bombs and a demonette bomb with character i need 3 battalions for max cp's (demons are cp hungry) so i use a skullreaver Dp, in every major tournament you play you have high chances to meet Ik's, after i played for long Ts dp's now i prefer a Korne Dp with reaver.
Yeah the KDP is totally the meta pick. I run my 2nd TSons DP in a Tzeentch detachment so he loses Brotherhood of Psykers. But even so, against everything non-titanic he's the better pick.
Against Knights I'd always run Skullreaver.
Hopefully some Knights players show up at the next tourney I go to. I haven't played at an event since moving to a new city so I'm still getting a feel for the local meta. The pick-up meta at my local store is like all Chaos players lol. Overall player skill seems pretty high but not everyone plays meta stuff. I'm the still the only Ynnari/CWE player I know.
I have gone up vs Culexus assassins before, they are not fun to fight. They have special deployment rules which allow them to start close enough to your forces that you will get hit by the -2 to cast. And only hitting them on 6's suck. However the rule says you treat the attacker as if it had a ws/bs of 6+, this can be overcome by reroll to hits and +'s to your to hit.
I dealt with the one i faced by hitting it with tzaangors in cc. I may hit on 6's but your a chr and i reroll failed hits vs chrs. Didnt take long to kill it at that point.
Azuza001 wrote: I have gone up vs Culexus assassins before, they are not fun to fight. They have special deployment rules which allow them to start close enough to your forces that you will get hit by the -2 to cast. And only hitting them on 6's suck. However the rule says you treat the attacker as if it had a ws/bs of 6+, this can be overcome by reroll to hits and +'s to your to hit.
I dealt with the one i faced by hitting it with tzaangors in cc. I may hit on 6's but your a chr and i reroll failed hits vs chrs. Didnt take long to kill it at that point.
Thats a great tactic; I've ran into lists that ran 2 (which they're super cheap so why not...) and they really are annoying as hell to fight.
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slave.entity wrote: I'd love to play against a Culexus list some time. I imagine my list has enough screen to keep it very far away from all of my casters. They always deploy in the backline so it's unlikely that their spells fail to cast due to having High Magister, Ahriman, and +6" cast range.
I'd have pinks clear whatever infantry screen the Culexus is hiding behind while the leviathan gets prescience'd to hit it on 5s and blow it away.
Power armor is not very scary because of bloodletters and pinks both wounding on 3s.
The IG flyer spam list you mentioned does sound scary though.
The Culexus bubble is quite large, and if you are keeping your psychers back to avoid it thats part of why people take them; making you do things you wouldn't normally.
The point being that if you intend to make a competitive list it needs more in its bag of tricks than a few powers, and the ability to cope with niche lists (i.e. IG Flier spam, 3+ Knights, Loota stars) without just crumpling. But as I mentioned, its also your meta, and whether your trying to test for larger events, or just a few bros at a small tourney. North Carolina, oddly enough, has a very competitive 40k scene.
This is also just a single instance of something that really messes with what your list revolves around; we now have the Slaneesh herald that causes perils on any double rolls, Eldrad is essentially Ahriman, and psychic powers can't always be relied upon. I'm glad your list is working for you though.
Fellas I have a couple of basic rules questions, let’s use Exalted Flamers as an example.
1 - They have 3 attacks - can they switch between pink and blue flame or are all 3 attacks made with the same profile?
2 - say we shoot with blue fire, which is heavy 3. Does that mean each Exalted Flamer is shooting 9 S9 (10 with a herald) AP4 shots per turn? Or with pink, 3d6 shots at S5/6?
Kind of makes me want to run a herald on a disc with a pack of Exalted Flamers in a Vanguard, and then a Spearhead of a chariot herald with 3 burning chariots...with a Khorne patrol you can fit a herald and 26 bloodletters into a 1k list. Only 5CP to play with and the letters will eat a few of those bombing in but...interdasting
1- you can decide how divide attacks with weapons
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed
on its datasheet. If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the
same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit.
2-blue fire is heavy 3 so ony 3 shots pink is d6 i dont know what make you think he can shot 9 or 3d6 shots.
blackmage wrote: 1- you can decide how divide attacks with weapons
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed
on its datasheet. If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the
same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit.
2-blue fire is heavy 3 so ony 3 shots pink is d6 i dont know what make you think he can shot 9 or 3d6 shots.
That's my confusion - Exalted Flamers have 3 attacks, so can they make 3 blue fire attacks? Or 1 blue/2 pink?
Each blue fire attack is Heavy 3. 3 attacks with blue fire would then be 9 shots total.
OR is the attack stat only for melee attacks, and they have to choose between either 1 shot of blue or 1 shot of pink (seems like this is the case - need to reread core book...)
slave.entity wrote: I'd love to play against a Culexus list some time. I imagine my list has enough screen to keep it very far away from all of my casters. They always deploy in the backline so it's unlikely that their spells fail to cast due to having High Magister, Ahriman, and +6" cast range.
I'd have pinks clear whatever infantry screen the Culexus is hiding behind while the leviathan gets prescience'd to hit it on 5s and blow it away.
Power armor is not very scary because of bloodletters and pinks both wounding on 3s.
The IG flyer spam list you mentioned does sound scary though.
The Culexus bubble is quite large, and if you are keeping your psychers back to avoid it thats part of why people take them; making you do things you wouldn't normally.
The point being that if you intend to make a competitive list it needs more in its bag of tricks than a few powers, and the ability to cope with niche lists (i.e. IG Flier spam, 3+ Knights, Loota stars) without just crumpling. But as I mentioned, its also your meta, and whether your trying to test for larger events, or just a few bros at a small tourney. North Carolina, oddly enough, has a very competitive 40k scene.
This is also just a single instance of something that really messes with what your list revolves around; we now have the Slaneesh herald that causes perils on any double rolls, Eldrad is essentially Ahriman, and psychic powers can't always be relied upon. I'm glad your list is working for you though.
I guess what I'm trying to say with the Culexus example specifically is that it doesn't make my list do anything it doesn't normally do. The Culexus bubble is 18" and I normally keep psykers outside of 24" of enemy characters to prevent deny the witch anyway. The increased range on all TSons psyker spells really helps with this. If you take a careful look at the list I posted, it's quite clear what the strategy is and what the deployment looks like: 6 psykers in the back stacking buffs on a single leviathan dread, a 30-man miasma'd plaguebearer screen spread out in front to create around 18-24" of space in front of the leviathan, then 30x cultists 3-6" in front of the plaguebearers to create an additional screen, then 6x nurglings in the midfield to create yet more roadblocks for the enemy forces before the 3 big daemon bombs drop on T2. Essentially everything that is present on the table T1 is deployed and buffed completely defensively so that the opponent is forced to waste shots on chaff and on high toughness, -1 to hit buffs. I don't worry about killing any high priority targets on T1 and focus only on staying alive and clearing screen. That means butcher cannons shooting at chaff and popping Warp Surge to discourage shooting at 4++/5+++ -1 to hit plaguebearer. On the following turns the 70 deepstriking obsec daemons drop and sweep away the enemy..
I'm not sure a Culexus list would pose as much of a problem for my list as something like Castellan/Catachan/Bullgryns for example. I've played against Culexus lists before with Eldar and they're not so tough when you have the tools to deal with them. Of the 3 archetypes you've posted, the only one that I'd be concerned with is IG flyer spam, mainly because I don't know exactly what it is. I imagine knight spam or orks will go down easily to the usual butcher cannons/bloodletters/pinks/Skullreaver/smite.
Those are great general competitive tips though. Getting to test my build against niche gatekeeper lists is absolutely the main reason I want to start going to tourneys again.
I'm trying out a Chaos Undivided list against my friend who's trying out Tau after CA, what are some of the best units to fight Tau with from the codex? I got access to just about every unit, since I am going to be taking at least 400 points of each god.
I understand reaver vs knights is good - are people actually getting the DP into melee against knights on even a 50 50 basis though? It was much easier when it was possible to run the alpha legion prince wtih it due to warptime... Most competitive lists screen with a million IG infantry, maybe custodes bikers and one dominus sitting in the back. I'm high on the skullreaver but have a hard time getting into melee...
Skullreaver and bloodletters should be great for that but we really need to make sure the screen is completely dead by T3 in order to have enough room to charge. That's always the big challenge with any Chaos vs. Imperial soup matchup I think. We can't outshoot them so we have to outfight them in CC somehow.
I've found that Pink horrors are a fantastic way to deal with screens to compliment Khorne. A full 30 blob shooting at an IG gunline will do fantastic, at 3 shots a piece, hitting 50/50 wounding on 3+ with a herald nearby. Give or take 30 wounds against their chaff! And that's just first turn, to take down a 30 blob you'd need to put a ridiculous amount of dakka into them, due to that 4++.
Just watched a battle rep only on youtube. Wow, I finally saw properly supported plague bearers in action and it was scary. This whole rerolls morale and on a 1, gets back d6 plague bearers is really op. And if they get stuck in combat with a unit that just only manages to kill off a few plague bearers every turn. they are almost impossible to remove.
Like, kill 3 models, oh, I rolled a 1 on two dice for morale (with possible rerolls), and now I put d6 plague bearers back... lol And blades of putrification on a mass of 30 plague bearers are sick. Now I know why people go with 90 to 120 plague bearers. Properly supported, that is such a hard resilient army. The guy in the battle rep only brought 50+ plague bearers. If he had brought 90, he would have won that game easily.
orkswubwub wrote: I understand reaver vs knights is good - are people actually getting the DP into melee against knights on even a 50 50 basis though? It was much easier when it was possible to run the alpha legion prince wtih it due to warptime... Most competitive lists screen with a million IG infantry, maybe custodes bikers and one dominus sitting in the back. I'm high on the skullreaver but have a hard time getting into melee...
Am I reading right that an Alpha Legion DP was running around with a Skullreaver? Because that was like never an option...
Am I reading right that an Alpha Legion DP was running around with a Skullreaver? Because that was like never an option...
Not really relevant but it technically may have been for the hot minute daemons in CSM detachments could use the daemons codex stratagems (and thus the extra relic)? The DP would be a daemon character obviously.
orkswubwub wrote: I understand reaver vs knights is good - are people actually getting the DP into melee against knights on even a 50 50 basis though? It was much easier when it was possible to run the alpha legion prince wtih it due to warptime... Most competitive lists screen with a million IG infantry, maybe custodes bikers and one dominus sitting in the back. I'm high on the skullreaver but have a hard time getting into melee...
Am I reading right that an Alpha Legion DP was running around with a Skullreaver? Because that was like never an option...
It was legal on a technicality. The latest faq fixed it.
Sweet. You worried about the bloodletters getting overwatched on the way in? How do daemonettes make it into combat?
demonettes goes in Ds, with icon and die re roll usually they charge in the turn they drop in, i can take some casualties to Letters they hit anyway hard as trucks usually they remove what they charge anyway. Soon i will play again with 30 pink horrors instead demonettes. Remember that list is made for ETC format so maybe cant be good for ITC.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: Just watched a battle rep only on youtube. Wow, I finally saw properly supported plague bearers in action and it was scary. This whole rerolls morale and on a 1, gets back d6 plague bearers is really op. And if they get stuck in combat with a unit that just only manages to kill off a few plague bearers every turn. they are almost impossible to remove.
Like, kill 3 models, oh, I rolled a 1 on two dice for morale (with possible rerolls), and now I put d6 plague bearers back... lol And blades of putrification on a mass of 30 plague bearers are sick. Now I know why people go with 90 to 120 plague bearers. Properly supported, that is such a hard resilient army. The guy in the battle rep only brought 50+ plague bearers. If he had brought 90, he would have won that game easily.
maybe that guy should re read blade of putrefaction rules, he was cheating , anyway if you really want rely on PB's you need not less than 90+scrivener+poxbringer+sloppity and they perform really good.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found that Pink horrors are a fantastic way to deal with screens to compliment Khorne. A full 30 blob shooting at an IG gunline will do fantastic, at 3 shots a piece, hitting 50/50 wounding on 3+ with a herald nearby. Give or take 30 wounds against their chaff! And that's just first turn, to take down a 30 blob you'd need to put a ridiculous amount of dakka into them, due to that 4++.
Yeah 2x20 pinks and 1x30 bloodletters are the core of my list. And of course 30x plaguebearers. Daemons simply have amazing troops which works perfectly for all obsec-driven missions like ITC.
Today I actually played one of the new CA missions against an Ultramarines gunline. I won but it wasn't an easy fight due to the front line assault deployment allowing the gunline to sit directly on top of a building within rapid fire range of the single center objective, which could only be held by characters.
Removing marines in 2nd floor cover with daemon hordes is ROUGH, especially when all my smites are getting screened out by the vehicles. Luckily sheer volume of fire managed to go through enough 2+ saves to wipe them out. Then the DP flew in and death hex'ed Marneus Calgar...
demonettes goes in Ds, with icon and die re roll usually they charge in the turn they drop in, i can take some casualties to Letters they hit anyway hard as trucks usually they remove what they charge anyway. Soon i will play again with 30 pink horrors instead demonettes. Remember that list is made for ETC format so maybe cant be good for ITC.
Let us know how the pinks compare to the daemonettes after your games. Btw, do you happen to know what the major differences are between ETC and ITC? I've skimmed over the ETC rules and it looks like it uses lots of... tactical objective cards? Doesn't that tend to make the games really swingy and random?
in Italy we play mainly full ETC rules+scenarios for big events or just rules but normal CA scenarios for "minor" events, usually in normal tournaments will be one maelstrom+EW mission then 2 EW taken from CA. Mix ew+maeltrom let a door open in some matches.
Demonettes are interesting but they still compete with letters (and letters are more reliable for a 2nd turn charge and they can damage anything), horrors give me some extra reach, they clean screens and can threaten some units i cant touch with letters/demonettes (some flyers, large units occupy the upper floor's ruins etc...)
Let us know how the pinks compare to the daemonettes after your games. Btw, do you happen to know what the major differences are between ETC and ITC? I've skimmed over the ETC rules and it looks like it uses lots of... tactical objective cards? Doesn't that tend to make the games really swingy and random?
Etc mixes eternal war and maelstrom missions to make book missions "work". Its very, very objective oriented, so troops are a bigger thing. As opposed to itc, where kill power is more prime.
Why i say this is because ETC you can score objectives whenever, but in itc you cannot go back and score kills or bonus points after the turn has passed. Same thing, in a kill points etc mission and KP is a KP while ITC you are trying to slowly score the points each turn.
As well, ITC missions can (and will) be won with armies that have zero obsec units. ETC places a premium on obsec, especially if they implement acceptable losses as a normal, means less killing and more holding.
It will be interesting with LVO around the corner, i dont think demons will be top 5, maybe top 10. Theres one DG player that may take top 3, he won BAO and has had a lot of top place finishes. I wont be surprised seeing a lot of 1k sons, people really are trying to make mortal wound spam work, but i dont know how effective that will be with more horde armies being seen now. Tyranids have been making a great showing, will be interesting.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: Just watched a battle rep only on youtube. Wow, I finally saw properly supported plague bearers in action and it was scary. This whole rerolls morale and on a 1, gets back d6 plague bearers is really op. And if they get stuck in combat with a unit that just only manages to kill off a few plague bearers every turn. they are almost impossible to remove.
Like, kill 3 models, oh, I rolled a 1 on two dice for morale (with possible rerolls), and now I put d6 plague bearers back... lol And blades of putrification on a mass of 30 plague bearers are sick. Now I know why people go with 90 to 120 plague bearers. Properly supported, that is such a hard resilient army. The guy in the battle rep only brought 50+ plague bearers. If he had brought 90, he would have won that game easily.
Thing is if your speaking competitively, players need to prepare for 90+ plagues.... the kill power of plagues is terrible, but they have great board presence and are hard to kill, so you have to be able to kill a bunch, or bait out the stuff that really matters (demon princes, etc.). Guys in my local have started taking the flamer castellan and the other flamer knight and they destroy a plaguebearer unit quickly... as does lootas or a warpathed orc boyz squad (if theyre goff your likely going to lose the whole unit).
Its a tough shell to crack, but thats why you see it often in competitive nurgle lists; its good to hide your crunchy bits behind. But nurglings are just as good played properly, some might argue even better at times.
nurglings are great but they lack they staying power of bareres, and they damage really nothing, bearers with some support can threaten other infantry or light veichles
Good stuff. ETC seems like a fun way to play. Interesting how much they favor different list styles and unit choices.
As always thanks for the info, blackmage and Zid.
Yesterday I threw together a new version of my artillery-supported daemon soup list that swaps out the leviathan for an AVG knight. I can't believe how much more expensive they are than a butcher leviathan now with the points drops.
Tzeentch Battalion
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Glamour of Tzeentch, High Magister
Changecaster, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate
2 x 20 Pinks
10x Brimstones
Had to sacrifice the third battalion for the superheavy auxiliary detachment unfortunately, and without a good Thousand Sons unit to stack buffs on Ahriman started making less and less sense. Overall I think a double gatling knight replacing Ahriman/leviathan gives me a little more kill power, survivability, and more importantly a more self-sufficient large threat on the table that doesn't rely on quite as many moving parts to function optimally. Having only 13CP makes me a little uncomfortable since I'd burn 6 of them before the game even starts. But a Chaos knight, 40 pinks, 30 bloodletters, and 3 daemon princes seems like pretty good kill power to me.
blackmage wrote: horrors give me some extra reach, they clean screens and can threaten some units i cant touch with letters/demonettes (some flyers, large units occupy the upper floor's ruins etc...)
Oh yeah, I've definitely found that units on 2nd floor ruins are a huge pain to kill with a daemon horde list thanks to the dumb 'you can't charge me' rules surrounding model placement. Primaris marines in cover on the 2nd floor of an unchargeable ruin is total BS for melee-oriented armies. And pinks have to dump so much fire at them to get through all of the 2+ saves. Last time I played against an Ultramarine gunline camping in 2nd floor cover I believe his Primaris did as much damage blowing itself up with plasma as I did with pinks. My opponent forced me to destroy a bunch of his vehicle screens first before I could effectively deal with his 2nd floor Primaris via smite. And infernal gate. Landing that infernal gate on Marneus, ancient, lieutenant, 2 squads of hellblasters, and a squad of intercessors was supremely tight.
slave.entity wrote: Good stuff. ETC seems like a fun way to play. Interesting how much they favor different list styles and unit choices.
As always thanks for the info, blackmage and Zid.
Yesterday I threw together a new version of my artillery-supported daemon soup list that swaps out the leviathan for an AVG knight. I can't believe how much more expensive they are than a butcher leviathan now with the points drops.
Tzeentch Battalion
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Glamour of Tzeentch, High Magister
Changecaster, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate
2 x 20 Pinks
10x Brimstones
Had to sacrifice the third battalion for the superheavy auxiliary detachment unfortunately, and without a good Thousand Sons unit to stack buffs on Ahriman started making less and less sense. Overall I think a double gatling knight replacing Ahriman/leviathan gives me a little more kill power, survivability, and more importantly a more self-sufficient large threat on the table that doesn't rely on quite as many moving parts to function optimally. Having only 13CP makes me a little uncomfortable since I'd burn 6 of them before the game even starts. But a Chaos knight, 40 pinks, 30 bloodletters, and 3 daemon princes seems like pretty good kill power to me.
blackmage wrote: horrors give me some extra reach, they clean screens and can threaten some units i cant touch with letters/demonettes (some flyers, large units occupy the upper floor's ruins etc...)
Oh yeah, I've definitely found that units on 2nd floor ruins are a huge pain to kill with a daemon horde list thanks to the dumb 'you can't charge me' rules surrounding model placement. Primaris marines in cover on the 2nd floor of an unchargeable ruin is total BS for melee-oriented armies. And pinks have to dump so much fire at them to get through all of the 2+ saves. Last time I played against an Ultramarine gunline camping in 2nd floor cover I believe his Primaris did as much damage blowing itself up with plasma as I did with pinks. My opponent forced me to destroy a bunch of his vehicle screens first before I could effectively deal with his 2nd floor Primaris via smite. And infernal gate. Landing that infernal gate on Marneus, ancient, lieutenant, 2 squads of hellblasters, and a squad of intercessors was supremely tight.
You lose the 6" extra spells in that list (all models must be 1k sons legion). A renegade knight doesnt make sense in your list, they work best supported by other heavy ranged options; to minimize how much damage they take (or force opponents into a lose-lose). Ahriman is great for the +1 to deny as well
Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.
You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?
a Ik in ur list will be focused by EVERY At weapon in opponent list, if you want support it maybe helverins are a good choice or maybe contemptors considering they cost less now, i should play a Tz demon batt and a supreme Ts command for me would work better.
Guess your list is 1750?
slave.entity wrote: Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.
You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?
Levithans (2 or more), plaguebrust crawlers, helverins, essentially stuff that causes your opponent to have to choose what to aim all his heavy stuff at. T8 with a 4++ seems hearty, but it really isnt as durable as it seems without other targets for your opponent; especially because its effectiveness diminishes a lot once tiered (i have a lot of battle reps with mine, i always run it with 3 plagueburst crawlers). Thats just me, a renegade knight isnt as plug and play as imperial ones.
And i know you will probably disagree because of your success with a single levithan; i will say from a competitive angle if i see multiple things that can touch me across the table and kill me is much more threatening than a single knight thats not a castellan. The gat knight fills the same role as the horrors in your other list, though it can beat up light vehicles
Hmm I like that a lot and have run something similar before with the 2x20 bloodletters. Only 6 CP to deep strike 4 big daemon bombs though so that's really nice. Btw, I play 2000 points games usually so I wonder what would be a good choice for the remaining 250 points.
Maybe the leviathan in my previous list works a little better than the renegade knight due to being 1) Smaller/easier to hide T1. 2) tougher with the -1 to hit (glamour) and 1+/4++ sv (in cover, weaver). Does that sound right? I usually don't ever have problems with losing a leviathan T1 since it's relatively easy to hide and can fit inside a ruin easily for the 1+ save. I suppose a renegade knight is a lot more vulnerable by comparison since it's too big to hide and only has a 3+/5++ compared to the 1+/4++.
slave.entity wrote: Hmm I like that a lot and have run something similar before with the 2x20 bloodletters. Only 6 CP to deep strike 4 big daemon bombs though so that's really nice. Btw, I play 2000 points games usually so I wonder what would be a good choice for the remaining 250 points.
Maybe the leviathan in my previous list works a little better than the renegade knight due to being 1) Smaller/easier to hide T1. 2) tougher with the -1 to hit (glamour) and 1+/4++ sv (in cover, weaver). Does that sound right? I usually don't ever have problems with losing a leviathan T1 since it's relatively easy to hide and can fit inside a ruin easily for the 1+ save. I suppose a renegade knight is a lot more vulnerable by comparison since it's too big to hide and only has a 3+/5++ compared to the 1+/4++.
Right. One opposing view, though, is your levithan fills an anti tank role; the gat knight does not. As well, the knight probably wont even attempt to hide most games anyway; and he can see a lot of stuff... unless your playing itc where first floor blocks los.
I use a knight often and love him, he just requires you building around him and knowing he might bite it turn one.
slave.entity wrote: Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.
You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?
Levithans (2 or more), plaguebrust crawlers, helverins, essentially stuff that causes your opponent to have to choose what to aim all his heavy stuff at. T8 with a 4++ seems hearty, but it really isnt as durable as it seems without other targets for your opponent; especially because its effectiveness diminishes a lot once tiered (i have a lot of battle reps with mine, i always run it with 3 plagueburst crawlers). Thats just me, a renegade knight isnt as plug and play as imperial ones.
And i know you will probably disagree because of your success with a single levithan; i will say from a competitive angle if i see multiple things that can touch me across the table and kill me is much more threatening than a single knight thats not a castellan. The gat knight fills the same role as the horrors in your other list, though it can beat up light vehicles
Nah dude I believe you. Good to get the opinions of experienced competitive players. The comparison of renegade knights to the loyalist ones makes perfect sense. And yeah, it does seem the S6 guns on the renegade knight creates too much overlap with the horrors in my list. With the leviathan having at least some S8 (even though it's relatively light AP1 S8) provides me with more flexibility than 24 S6 shots.
slave.entity wrote: Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.
You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?
Levithans (2 or more), plaguebrust crawlers, helverins, essentially stuff that causes your opponent to have to choose what to aim all his heavy stuff at. T8 with a 4++ seems hearty, but it really isnt as durable as it seems without other targets for your opponent; especially because its effectiveness diminishes a lot once tiered (i have a lot of battle reps with mine, i always run it with 3 plagueburst crawlers). Thats just me, a renegade knight isnt as plug and play as imperial ones.
And i know you will probably disagree because of your success with a single levithan; i will say from a competitive angle if i see multiple things that can touch me across the table and kill me is much more threatening than a single knight thats not a castellan. The gat knight fills the same role as the horrors in your other list, though it can beat up light vehicles
Nah dude I believe you. Good to get the opinions of experienced competitive players. The comparison of renegade knights to the loyalist ones makes perfect sense. And yeah, it does seem the S6 guns on the renegade knight creates too much overlap with the horrors in my list. With the leviathan having at least some S8 (even though it's relatively light AP1 S8) provides me with more flexibility than 24 S6 shots.
It does, the knight is usually used to shred elite infantry and infantry based heavy weapons (reapers); he does a great job at mulching infantry in general.
I was thinking of including a single renegade Knight as a way to deal with flyers or enemy armor.
I play mono Slaanesh and that’s whats given me the most trouble. I don’t have any shooting to deal with the flyers and only DPs can fly up to smack them. Which is obnoxious.. I wish Keepers could fly.
The new enrapturess has me thinking of using her instead though. I can hide them in my mass of infantry and effectly Tier down flyers with the melta shot so they’re not as effective.
From what I've read, placing the daemons of different gods in the same army does work, though it works best with CSM support. Are there downsides to having multiple kinds of daemons in an army? I want to put together an army heavily reliant on Tzeentch and Khorne daemons, with possible Slaaneshi and Nurgle daemons. Is creating such an army worth it? I've heard that it drains command points extremely fast.
I normally run both. Patrol detachment of tzaangors, dp of tzeentch and a bomb of bloodletters and a herald. Make dp the warlord and give it eatherstride. T1 advance tzaangors and dp up, then end of movement pop the relic to move tzaangors up to charge range. Then cast gaze of fate for free reroll and warptime on the dp, he should now be in charge range. Gaze of fate helps make sure tzaangors get in. Eatherstride gives free reroll if the dp needs it to charge. T2 bloodletters pop out and finish whatever is left.
Rest of tson forces / khorne demon forces are focused on killing chaff to make a hole for bloodletters t2 or help make sure dp is hitting what it wants to hurt.
weaver9 wrote: Bloodletters vs Tzaangors. Any thoughts? Tzaangors can't deepstrike multiple units but you can use a relic to transport one blob of them backfield.
they fill same role, main difference is AP -3 the chance for 2 damages and str 5 for letters, tzaangors are more synegic with Ts powers, i still prefer letters but they both have reasons to be played
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Azuza001 wrote: I normally run both. Patrol detachment of tzaangors, dp of tzeentch and a bomb of bloodletters and a herald. Make dp the warlord and give it eatherstride. T1 advance tzaangors and dp up, then end of movement pop the relic to move tzaangors up to charge range. Then cast gaze of fate for free reroll and warptime on the dp, he should now be in charge range. Gaze of fate helps make sure tzaangors get in. Eatherstride gives free reroll if the dp needs it to charge. T2 bloodletters pop out and finish whatever is left.
Rest of tson forces / khorne demon forces are focused on killing chaff to make a hole for bloodletters t2 or help make sure dp is hitting what it wants to hurt.
why you need to move Tzaangors during mov phase? with dmc ainyway they get 9" away from enemy units so move them is pointless if you want use dmc on them 1st turn, then im pretty sure if you advance in mov phase then you cant use DMC and still charge with tzaangors, dmc let them fall back and charge but not advance in movement phase then charge.
I was talking to someone who plays Deathguard + Nurgle and told me you are able to run both armies in the same detachment by using the Nurgle keyword. His example was that you could make a Nurgle Battalion detachment and within that detachment you could also link a Deathguard Battalion I'm the Nurgle Battalion to let you run Pleaguebears and PBCs in the 1 detachment rather than having 2 separate ones.
I am just wondering if this is legal to run and if so what are the pros + cons to running DGuard + Nurgle in a shared detachment rather than separate detachments for both armies.
You lose the DG trait (RF at 18", no move penalties for shooting) and the Nurgle Daemons' Locus, and far more importantly, you don't unlock stratagems without a pure DG or Daemons detachment.
JNAProductions wrote: You lose the DG trait (RF at 18", no move penalties for shooting) and the Nurgle Daemons' Locus, and far more importantly, you don't unlock stratagems without a pure DG or Daemons detachment.
Sounds like it more of a hindrance than anything. Thank you for clarifying what that does
JNAProductions wrote: Well, you CAN use strats on the units with the right keywords. You just need a pure Detachment to unlock them first.
So, I could run a Nurgle Patrol detachment to unlock the Locus and than run a Mixed Battalion of DG + Nurgle and I can than use both the Locus and Gems without an issue? Besides the DG ones.
JNAProductions wrote: Well, you CAN use strats on the units with the right keywords. You just need a pure Detachment to unlock them first.
So, I could run a Nurgle Patrol detachment to unlock the Locus and than run a Mixed Battalion of DG + Nurgle and I can than use both the Locus and Gems without an issue? Besides the DG ones.
Yes-however, do note that ONLY the Characters in the Patrol would have the Locus.
My army is mostly Nurgle daemons and Death guard. My question is: would one of the Silver Tower Pink horrors make a decent sub for a Fatecaster Herald of tzeentch on foot? It has a blade, is more heavily mutated, and would be the only Tzeentch model on the board.
Dont feel like getting a whole Burning Chariot just for my Weaver of Fate delivery service.
Nightlord1987 wrote: My army is mostly Nurgle daemons and Death guard. My question is: would one of the Silver Tower Pink horrors make a decent sub for a Fatecaster Herald of tzeentch on foot? It has a blade, is more heavily mutated, and would be the only Tzeentch model on the board.
Dont feel like getting a whole Burning Chariot just for my Weaver of Fate delivery service.
Picture wont load. My bad.
Oh, Silver Tower Pink Horror is absolutely Herald material. Very different visual profile than the PH unit set. In fact, they stick out so much, when I added one of them to my ST collection, I ended up using one of the ST ones as a Herald Mighty Adversary, and the other I did up as the Librarian.
On the GW store, it looks like all the other foot Heralds are on 25mm bases. All of my foot Heralds are kitbashed from Seeker Chariot/Seeker boxes so I bought 25mm bases for them.
I really, really hope they don't move Daemons to 32mm bases, I really don't want to have to rebase sixty-odd Daemonettes and Heralds.
On the GW store, it looks like all the other foot Heralds are on 25mm bases. All of my foot Heralds are kitbashed from Seeker Chariot/Seeker boxes so I bought 25mm bases for them.
I really, really hope they don't move Daemons to 32mm bases, I really don't want to have to rebase sixty-odd Daemonettes and Heralds.
I don't know if Demonettes moved, I know Pink Horrors, Plaguebearers, and Bloodletters are all now on 32mm bases. Demonettes I don't think will go up though, in stature they are smaller than the rest I believe.
Generally speaking, when I custom build a model I go to the GW site and find the "newest" version of a model to use as a basis for size and base. So if the herald of tzeentch in the Get Started box in on a 25mm base, I would say your g2g!
On the GW store, it looks like all the other foot Heralds are on 25mm bases. All of my foot Heralds are kitbashed from Seeker Chariot/Seeker boxes so I bought 25mm bases for them.
I really, really hope they don't move Daemons to 32mm bases, I really don't want to have to rebase sixty-odd Daemonettes and Heralds.
I don't know if Demonettes moved, I know Pink Horrors, Plaguebearers, and Bloodletters are all now on 32mm bases. Demonettes I don't think will go up though, in stature they are smaller than the rest I believe.
Generally speaking, when I custom build a model I go to the GW site and find the "newest" version of a model to use as a basis for size and base. So if the herald of tzeentch in the Get Started box in on a 25mm base, I would say your g2g!
Daemonette base sizes didn’t change. Bases are still 25mm. Just bought two boxes last week, they’re 25mm, and their bass in Wrath and Rapture are 25mm; compare to the BL’s 32mm for reference on the box.
I buy these 30mm bases from a seller on ebay called ken*of*york, they are really really great. A 25mm base fits perfectly onto the 30mm one, and the new base is flat enough but with a bit of a lip that you can simply glue the 25mm based model onto the 30mm base and bam, done. Also the tiny bit of extra hight you get isnt anywhere near as much as the hight most newer models get from just getting updated (my 25mm tson models are still smaller even on these bases than my newer 32mm ones are).
I agree, i spent a lot of time just switching all my demons from square bases to round, i am not going to rebase again.
Given that the plastic plaguebearer models are sold on 32mm bases, and my old metal models came with the 25mm slottabases (and I like consistency), I can't just cut the lip of the base off and glue the top of the base onto a 32mm base, so I've bought some plastic base expanders after reading this review and tutorial:
I had originally started gently removing my models from their bases, removing the slottabase and drilling a pin into the foot of the model to pin to a new 32mm base, but this was WAY too much effort and handling of the models, and I was worried about damage to the models or their paint. Hopefully these arrive in a few days and provide a much better solution.
Hey guys... I've been list building a daemon army and I've realized something...
I can plop down ~10 different characters that would be "pressing forward" towards the enemies...
Such as DPs, EFlamers, Fluxmasters...
Is it possible to position them such that my opponents can't target them all? Meaning, has anyone tried a character spam list and only give them the one or two legal targets per round?
I think the recent FAQ tells you to ignore a character in combat when targeting a farther character...
But, what about a character that's closer to the shooting unit, but is completely out of sight (ie, the 1st level of a ruin under ITC rule)... can the shooting unit target a farther character unit?
Anything else I should know?
I'll also have several units of nurglings midboard / in enemy's zone... do they offer some protections to these characters?
As long as your chrs have less than 10 wounds on their data sheet they are ignored for blocking for other characters. One of the most effective deamon forces i have ever ran did nothing but chrs and troops, demonettes, bloodletters, horrors, nurglings all moving forward while 5 deamon princes moved behind them then t2 jumped over the line hitting the enemy force (eldar force) at full strength. Really pissed my opponent off (he needed to be dropped a few pegs, bit of a bad sport / showoff) because all his dark reapers and hemlocks were next to worthless shooting at 7 pt models when there were such juicy targets simply protected due to chr armor. He conceded beginning t3 after my initial wave crushed all opposition....
So it can work, but chrs cant block for chrs. Its why nurglings are so good. They are small, can hide in cover out of sight but still be closer so you cant target that dp moving up.
What Azuza said about the Nurglings is great advice.
I have those and a PB block in my list. The PBs run forward roughly 11", which is enough to keep DPs and Nurgle support chars in the center of the blob for the first turn.
Between those, the only targets I present on T1 are PBs at -2 to hit, Nurglings that are out of LoS, and some hidden cultists.
Smart missiles mess me up, but they only have a 30" range so can't hit the cultists, and the Nurglings with a 5++/5+++ are pretty resilient.
Hey, I'm setting up a Tzeentch Daemon/Thousand Sons/CSM army and here's my list of forces (I may add three more Chaos Marines from the Easy to Build box). I haven't organized them yet, but I was wondering if you thought it was a good army or not. I was also hoping possibly for some advice on how I could organize it to make it most effective on the battlefield:
Tzaangors (20, with Tzaangor Blades)
Tzaangor Shaman (1, with Force Stave and Blade)
Tzaangor Enlightened (3, with Divining Spears and Blades)
Tzaangor Skyfires (3, with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists: (5, 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons)
Kairic Cultists (10, with Brutal Assault Weapons)
Exalted Flamer (2)
Fateskimmer (2)
Changecaster (1)
Pink Horrors (12)
Blue Horrors (20)
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1)
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Vigilus Character] (1, with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave)
Kairos Fateweaver
Chaos Space Marine Squad (10, with Boltguns)
Azuza001 wrote: As long as your chrs have less than 10 wounds on their data sheet they are ignored for blocking for other characters. One of the most effective deamon forces i have ever ran did nothing but chrs and troops, demonettes, bloodletters, horrors, nurglings all moving forward while 5 deamon princes moved behind them then t2 jumped over the line hitting the enemy force (eldar force) at full strength. Really pissed my opponent off (he needed to be dropped a few pegs, bit of a bad sport / showoff) because all his dark reapers and hemlocks were next to worthless shooting at 7 pt models when there were such juicy targets simply protected due to chr armor. He conceded beginning t3 after my initial wave crushed all opposition....
So it can work, but chrs cant block for chrs. Its why nurglings are so good. They are small, can hide in cover out of sight but still be closer so you cant target that dp moving up.
I have those and a PB block in my list. The PBs run forward roughly 11", which is enough to keep DPs and Nurgle support chars in the center of the blob for the first turn.
Between those, the only targets I present on T1 are PBs at -2 to hit, Nurglings that are out of LoS, and some hidden cultists.
Smart missiles mess me up, but they only have a 30" range so can't hit the cultists, and the Nurglings with a 5++/5+++ are pretty resilient.
Thanks guys! This is making much more sense now.
I have LOTS of nurglings, so I'm thinking of a list like this:
Exalted Flamer [5 PL, 70pts]: Fire of Tzeentch, Tongues of flame
Exalted Flamer [5 PL, 70pts]: Fire of Tzeentch, Tongues of flame
Exalted Flamer [5 PL, 70pts]: Fire of Tzeentch, Tongues of flame
ArcaneHorror wrote: Hey, I'm setting up a Tzeentch Daemon/Thousand Sons/CSM army and here's my list of forces (I may add three more Chaos Marines from the Easy to Build box). I haven't organized them yet, but I was wondering if you thought it was a good army or not. I was also hoping possibly for some advice on how I could organize it to make it most effective on the battlefield:
Tzaangors (20, with Tzaangor Blades)
Tzaangor Shaman (1, with Force Stave and Blade)
Tzaangor Enlightened (3, with Divining Spears and Blades)
Tzaangor Skyfires (3, with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists: (5, 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons)
Kairic Cultists (10, with Brutal Assault Weapons)
Exalted Flamer (2)
Fateskimmer (2)
Changecaster (1)
Pink Horrors (12)
Blue Horrors (20)
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1)
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Vigilus Character] (1, with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave)
Kairos Fateweaver
Chaos Space Marine Squad (10, with Boltguns)
Well, first things first, I’m afraid Thousand Sons don’t have access to a bunch of these, specifically the Chaos Space Marines and Kafiristan Acolytes. The Acolytes would make fine Chaos Cultists, though - and a packet of five regular Cultists will get you up to 20, which means two cheap squads to sit back and hide on objectives or screen important stuff. Add the Tzaangors and Exalted Sorcerer and you’re one TS character (not a Tzaangors, I’m afraid) short of a Battalion, which is a good start - plenty of Command Points to play with.
As for the CSMs - they could perhaps pass for Rubric Marines, or maybe count them as one of the polytheist Legions? Sorry there’s not much role for them in a TS Detachment :(
That’s a decent contingent of Tzeentch Daemons, as well. There’s a lot of HQ units - in fact, too many to fit in a Battalion, so you’ll have to leave someone on the subs bench or build up to an extra detachment. Though, the ones you have... Pink Horrors are great, especially in a big unit. Blue Horrors don’t get much use, except as bodies for Pinks to turn into; I’m considering painting some of mine in pink and passing them off in a horde .
Brimstone Horrors would be another handy addition, as they make another cheap Troops unit to occupy space on the tabletop and build a Battalion.
The main hole I can see in what you have is limited anti-tank firepower. Kairos and a LoC can kick things over... if they reach them intact. Pretty big fire magnets, them. Lascannon-Missile Helbrutes just got a tasty points cut, they’re not bad at denting the big stuff?
Well, first things first, I’m afraid Thousand Sons don’t have access to a bunch of these, specifically the Chaos Space Marines and Kafiristan Acolytes. The Acolytes would make fine Chaos Cultists, though - and a packet of five regular Cultists will get you up to 20, which means two cheap squads to sit back and hide on objectives or screen important stuff. Add the Tzaangors and Exalted Sorcerer and you’re one TS character (not a Tzaangors, I’m afraid) short of a Battalion, which is a good start - plenty of Command Points to play with.
I could make the Chaos Marines into Rubrics, I think, although I like the fact that they have a smaller point value than Rubrics. Still, I was under the impression that generic CSM could fight in any Chaos army, as they could be Renegades fighting for a specific god. As for the Acolytes, I'm making them straight cultists, I was just separating them out for my own desires; they wouldn't have any specific abilities beyond regular cultists. What character or unit would you recommend that I use to complete my Battalion?
That’s a decent contingent of Tzeentch Daemons, as well. There’s a lot of HQ units - in fact, too many to fit in a Battalion, so you’ll have to leave someone on the subs bench or build up to an extra detachment. Though, the ones you have... Pink Horrors are great, especially in a big unit. Blue Horrors don’t get much use, except as bodies for Pinks to turn into; I’m considering painting some of mine in pink and passing them off in a horde .
Brimstone Horrors would be another handy addition, as they make another cheap Troops unit to occupy space on the tabletop and build a Battalion.
I was thinking tonight of replacing Kairos with more Horrors, either Pink or Brimstone.
The main hole I can see in what you have is limited anti-tank firepower. Kairos and a LoC can kick things over... if they reach them intact. Pretty big fire magnets, them. Lascannon-Missile Helbrutes just got a tasty points cut, they’re not bad at denting the big stuff?
For my Lord, I was thinking of giving him both Incorporeal Form and the Impossible Robe to be harder to damage. In terms of anti-tank stuff, I was thinking about that myself. I could put in a Helbrute or two.
I do have one other question. What exactly are the differences between Daemonic Icons and Instruments of Chaos? I'm pretty sure that the Icons are the banners and horns that some of the daemons carry, but I'm not sure how I could factor them into my army, or even if I want to, due to them costing points. As for the Instruments, are those the same as the Hellforged Artefacts? I know that Warlord Traits are free, but if Artefacts and Instruments are the same thing, then they cost points? This would affect my LoC due to the Impossible Robe, and anyone else I decide to give an Artefact to.
Ok, here is my new list. I'll be posting it in the Chaos Space Marines Thread as well for anyone who goes there but doesn't come here:
Tzaangors (20, 18 with Tzaangor Blades, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 165
Tzaangor Shaman (1, with Force Stave and Blade): 90
Tzaangor Enlightened (3, with Divining Spears and Blades): 48
Tzaangor Skyfires (3, with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists: (5, 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons): 25
Kairic Cultists [treated exactly the same as regular Cultists] (10, with Brutal Assault Weapons): 50
Exalted Flamer (2): 140
Fateskimmer (2): 260
Changecaster (1): 65
Pink Horrors (12, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 109
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1): 275
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Character] (1): (with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave): 122
Chaos Space Marines [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (13) (with Boltguns): 130
Rubric Marines (10) (with Inferno Boltguns, one with Soulreaper Cannon): 193
Helbrute [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Twinlascannon and Missile Launcher): 120
Chaos Terminator Lord [The Scourged Renegade Chapter] (1) (with Reaper Autocannon and Lightning Claw): 113
Yeah, the two monotheist Legions with Codices have both lost access to regular CSM - all DG Astartes infantry are now types of Plague Marines, and the only TS Astartes which survived the Rubric of Ahriman intact were Sorcerers.
As for second HQ recommendations for a TS Battalion - Daemon Prince with Wings, being TS gives it an extra psychic power, with eighteen powers to choose from. (Exalted Sorcerer On Disc is also really good.)
With your CSM being Scourged renegades, they could be in a TZEENTCH Battalion right now with your TS, buuuut that loses out on both faction’s Legion perks (the TS one is an excellent range boost for spells) - I’d recommend a third TS Troops unit so that you can keep them in a dedicated detachment (you could split the Rubrics into two units, or add five more Cultists).
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, the two monotheist Legions with Codices have both lost access to regular CSM - all DG Astartes infantry are now types of Plague Marines, and the only TS Astartes which survived the Rubric of Ahriman intact were Sorcerers.
As for second HQ recommendations for a TS Battalion - Daemon Prince with Wings, being TS gives it an extra psychic power, with eighteen powers to choose from. (Exalted Sorcerer On Disc is also really good.)
With your CSM being Scourged renegades, they could be in a TZEENTCH Battalion right now with your TS, buuuut that loses out on both faction’s Legion perks (the TS one is an excellent range boost for spells) - I’d recommend a third TS Troops unit so that you can keep them in a dedicated detachment (you could split the Rubrics into two units, or add five more Cultists).
Thanks. I've actually removed the Scourged and have a new list that's just Daemons and TS:
Tzaangors (20) (18 with Tzaangor Blades, 1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 165
Tzaangor Shaman (1) (with Force Stave and Blade): 90
Tzaangor Enlightened (3) (with Divining Spears and Blades): 48
Tzaangor Skyfires (3) with Fatecaster Greatbows): 51
Cultists (5) 3 with Autoguns, 2 with Autopistols and Brutal Assault Weapons): 25
Kairic Cultists 11 [treated the same as regular Cultists] (with Brutal Assault Weapons): 55
Exalted Flamer (2): 140
Fateskimmer (2): 260
Changecaster (1): 65
Pink Horrors (20) (1 with Daemonic Icon and 1 with Instrument of Chaos): 165
Blue Horrors (10): 50
Lord of Change with Baleful Sword (1): 275
Exalted Sorcerer [Special Character] (1) (with Inferno Bolt Pistol and Force Stave): 122
Rubric Marines (10) (with Inferno Boltguns, one with Soulreaper Cannon): 188
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Wings (1) (with Hellforged Sword): 180
Helbrute (1) [Thousand Sons] (with Twinlascannon and Missile Launcher): 120
Total points: 1,999
I'm up in the air if whether I should cut back somewhere else and add more Rubrics or not. I could remove the Blue Horrors and one Exalted Flamer, though Exalted Flamers are really good. Also, if I love just one Pink Horror, the perks of having 20+ Pinks are suddenly gone.
So I have played one practice and 3 RTT games using the Enrapturess so far. (I call mine Janis in honor of Janis Joplin who could really scream)
I am kind of liking her. Janis's guns are reliable at BS2 but not enough AP or ROF.
However just the threat of doubles = Perils of the Warp makes my opponent play back with their psychers.
My last game vs Thousand sons was funny with Ahriman flying further into his corner each turn as Janis advanced. Also had two rubric sorcerers pop themselves with back to back doubles (4's and then 5's) which was a pretty good laugh. (CP's were gone so no rerolls)
All that and writing this I just remembered I could have tried to bring models back as well
Eldenfirefly wrote: Can someone explain to me why Tsangors are so good? I don't have the thousand sons codex, I only have the chaos daemons codex.
For the same price as a Plaguebearer, or two points more than a Cultist, they have S&T4, 5++, their melee is AP-1 with a reroll to hit Characters, they can take an upgrade to +1 advance & charge, they can be babysat by a shaman for +1 to hit, they can benefit from Veterans of the Long War and Warptime (and Weaver of Fates & Glamour of Tzeentch).
As an Elites unit, they’d be ok, but this is a Troops unit that fuels Stratagems as well. They serve well as CP battery, screen, and horde. Also if you wanna really open the TS angle, they can be Mutalith’d as well.
So today's errata to Chapter Approved/Wrath and Rapture changes the shooting attack on Gore Hounds from Assault 1 to Assault D6, making it exactly a flamer. So no longer the absolute worst upgrade in the game, instead just 50% overpriced compared to normal Imperial/Chaos flamers. *shrug*
Eldenfirefly wrote: Can someone explain to me why Tsangors are so good? I don't have the thousand sons codex, I only have the chaos daemons codex.
For the same price as a Plaguebearer, or two points more than a Cultist, they have S&T4, 5++, their melee is AP-1 with a reroll to hit Characters, they can take an upgrade to +1 advance & charge, they can be babysat by a shaman for +1 to hit, they can benefit from Veterans of the Long War and Warptime (and Weaver of Fates & Glamour of Tzeentch).
As an Elites unit, they’d be ok, but this is a Troops unit that fuels Stratagems as well. They serve well as CP battery, screen, and horde. Also if you wanna really open the TS angle, they can be Mutalith’d as well.
Plus still being a viable turn 1 assault option via Dark Matter Crystal.
Hey dudes - got another noob question for you, in regards to Burning Chariots this time.
Say my chariot gets charged. On my turn, it gets to Overwatch with its D6 S5 pistol or 3 lascannon shots.
Assuming it survives, on my turn it can:
- shoot its D6 pistol shots into the unit that charged it;
- make 3 S5 -1AP melee attacks from the chariot's profile,
- make 6 attacks with its screamers.
Is that right? If so, the chariot sounds like a pretty sweet flying tank to send up and down harassing units that don't want to charge it for fear of getting f'ed up next turn, and it has a good chance of surviving w/ it's 8 wounds and a 4++ save.
tzurk wrote: Hey dudes - got another noob question for you, in regards to Burning Chariots this time.
Say my chariot gets charged. On my turn, it gets to Overwatch with its D6 S5 pistol or 3 lascannon shots.
Assuming it survives, on my turn it can:
- shoot its D6 pistol shots into the unit that charged it;
- make 3 S5 -1AP melee attacks from the chariot's profile,
- make 6 attacks with its screamers.
Is that right? If so, the chariot sounds like a pretty sweet flying tank to send up and down harassing units that don't want to charge it for fear of getting f'ed up next turn, and it has a good chance of surviving w/ it's 8 wounds and a 4++ save.
It would overwatch when a unit charges it on your opponents turn. It could also fall back if it survives, because it has the fly keyword, and shoot either weapon or as you said fire it's pistol and all it's close combat attacks. If you put 3 or so near a fateskimmer they'll all also be +1 str so that flamer pistol will become even more deadly.
Only problem is they loose the charachter keyword that exalted flamers have. Which would mean for 40 less points you would get all the same shooting but get to hide behind 30-60 pink horrors which are often very hard to shift!
I agree.
Compared to pre-CA exalted, it was a worthy question due to the improved speed, the sheer body bulk and the addead melee abilities.
But with EF getting a massive discount in CA and the chariot not, the point difference is too big now. you just can't justify a 110 for a chariot when an EF is mere 70.
BoomWolf wrote: I agree.
Compared to pre-CA exalted, it was a worthy question due to the improved speed, the sheer body bulk and the addead melee abilities.
But with EF getting a massive discount in CA and the chariot not, the point difference is too big now. you just can't justify a 110 for a chariot when an EF is mere 70.
Do you have success with these. 3 shots with a short range (hitting on 4 if you move) seems lackluster.
BoomWolf wrote: I agree.
Compared to pre-CA exalted, it was a worthy question due to the improved speed, the sheer body bulk and the addead melee abilities.
But with EF getting a massive discount in CA and the chariot not, the point difference is too big now. you just can't justify a 110 for a chariot when an EF is mere 70.
Do you have success with these. 3 shots with a short range (hitting on 4 if you move) seems lackluster.
Those 3 shots hit like a truck for the now 70 point model theyrr attached to, especially considering it can hide as a character and fly around with a great movement speed.
BoomWolf wrote: I agree.
Compared to pre-CA exalted, it was a worthy question due to the improved speed, the sheer body bulk and the addead melee abilities.
But with EF getting a massive discount in CA and the chariot not, the point difference is too big now. you just can't justify a 110 for a chariot when an EF is mere 70.
Do you have success with these. 3 shots with a short range (hitting on 4 if you move) seems lackluster.
Those 3 shots hit like a truck for the now 70 point model theyrr attached to, especially considering it can hide as a character and fly around with a great movement speed.
They are now a much more reasonable prosepct at 70pts and are a useful anti charge unit too. I used to play flamers like this but they're easily picked off. Whereas hiding 3 EF in your deathball makes it easier to punish a charge.
If you’re running Chaos soup, 70pts gets you five Havocs but it won’t even pay for their first Lascannon. Short range is mitigated by the Character rule making it like a concealed magnum. In fact, short range opens the possibility of using it to scarecrow big targets - as long as it has a decent screen, it’s a brave tank or dread that approaches. Definitely bumping the EF on my painting queue high up, and the same for the one in my build queue
Should be fun running three of them in a mono daemons list. With a herald nearby we're wounding T8 on 3s and T5 on 2s. Should come in handy for dealing with flyers or 2nd floor Primaris or oblits as mono daemons.
So I have played one practice and 3 RTT games using the Enrapturess so far. (I call mine Janis in honor of Janis Joplin who could really scream)
I am kind of liking her. Janis's guns are reliable at BS2 but not enough AP or ROF.
However just the threat of doubles = Perils of the Warp makes my opponent play back with their psychers.
My last game vs Thousand sons was funny with Ahriman flying further into his corner each turn as Janis advanced. Also had two rubric sorcerers pop themselves with back to back doubles (4's and then 5's) which was a pretty good laugh. (CP's were gone so no rerolls)
All that and writing this I just remembered I could have tried to bring models back as well
How about you all? what are your experiences?
I have had a similar experience. It made my Eldar opponent stop casting extra powers he didn't deem to be essential. Do you run just one or two? I have been running one so far but in larger games with a double battalion I may start running two. We just have so much room in our lists now.
So I have played one practice and 3 RTT games using the Enrapturess so far. (I call mine Janis in honor of Janis Joplin who could really scream)
I am kind of liking her. Janis's guns are reliable at BS2 but not enough AP or ROF.
However just the threat of doubles = Perils of the Warp makes my opponent play back with their psychers.
My last game vs Thousand sons was funny with Ahriman flying further into his corner each turn as Janis advanced. Also had two rubric sorcerers pop themselves with back to back doubles (4's and then 5's) which was a pretty good laugh. (CP's were gone so no rerolls)
All that and writing this I just remembered I could have tried to bring models back as well
How about you all? what are your experiences?
I have had a similar experience. It made my Eldar opponent stop casting extra powers he didn't deem to be essential. Do you run just one or two? I have been running one so far but in larger games with a double battalion I may start running two. We just have so much room in our lists now.
Just 1 so far. My lists are tight on points as I am running 501 points of Helldrakes (3) in a CSM Air Wing detachment... they have been fantastic distractions that die, but usually require quite a bit of effort to kill. During which the rest of the list closes in. I think 2 will be too much. I'd rather have an exalted chariot or put it towards another prince or keeper. I find that you need 2-3 hearlds for that sweet +1 S locus.
Anybody got a good idea as to how to convert/build a harp?
I already have six Heralds so I can't add another one, meaning one of my current foot Heralds needs converting if I want to use the new one with the silly name.
I already have six Heralds so I can't add another one, meaning one of my current foot Heralds needs converting if I want to use the new one with the silly name.
Does it have to be a harp? I would think any instrument would do, like a guitar (there are plenty of those bits out there) or maybe a Drum out of some heads?
There's also the trumpet from the Daemonettes or Seekers kits, if little to no effort is desired.
As for harp, I think using the icons of Slaanesh and instruments, you could build a decent enough frame, and then just use dental floss for the strings. That, or roll thicker strings out of green stuff.
I'd like the conversion to be recognizably an Infernal Enrapturess (ugh) and to avoid any confusion with my Daemonette musicians, so the trumpets/horns are out sadly.
A guitar-type thing could work, though I think an 'axe' would look silly in the hands of a Daemon. Perhaps a lute.
Ooh, ooh. A double-bass, perhaps?
Re the harp (lyre, I guess) I'll see what I can knock together from a few Icons, thanks.
It’s the instrument being a damned soul that necessitates a big base that’ll keep it WYSIWYG. Make someone’s ribcage into a xylophone? Have someone lugging around a gigantic amp?
Automatically Appended Next Post: RE making harp strings - get to a model shop (as in, railways) and get some thin poly rods. They’ll take paint and hold their shape. Can even provide a little scaffolding to keep the whole construction stable.
So I have played one practice and 3 RTT games using the Enrapturess so far. (I call mine Janis in honor of Janis Joplin who could really scream)
I am kind of liking her. Janis's guns are reliable at BS2 but not enough AP or ROF.
However just the threat of doubles = Perils of the Warp makes my opponent play back with their psychers.
My last game vs Thousand sons was funny with Ahriman flying further into his corner each turn as Janis advanced. Also had two rubric sorcerers pop themselves with back to back doubles (4's and then 5's) which was a pretty good laugh. (CP's were gone so no rerolls)
All that and writing this I just remembered I could have tried to bring models back as well
How about you all? what are your experiences?
I have had a similar experience. It made my Eldar opponent stop casting extra powers he didn't deem to be essential. Do you run just one or two? I have been running one so far but in larger games with a double battalion I may start running two. We just have so much room in our lists now.
Just 1 so far. My lists are tight on points as I am running 501 points of Helldrakes (3) in a CSM Air Wing detachment... they have been fantastic distractions that die, but usually require quite a bit of effort to kill. During which the rest of the list closes in. I think 2 will be too much. I'd rather have an exalted chariot or put it towards another prince or keeper. I find that you need 2-3 hearlds for that sweet +1 S locus.
Ah, I play mono Slaanesh Daemons so I have a bit more room in my lists with the favorable point changes. That air wing detachment sounds like a great idea though... my main issue anymore is flyers. Besides my DPs and the new harp I don’t have an answer to them.
Excommunicatus wrote: I'd like the conversion to be recognizably an Infernal Enrapturess (ugh) and to avoid any confusion with my Daemonette musicians, so the trumpets/horns are out sadly.
A guitar-type thing could work, though I think an 'axe' would look silly in the hands of a Daemon. Perhaps a lute.
Ooh, ooh. A double-bass, perhaps?
Re the harp (lyre, I guess) I'll see what I can knock together from a few Icons, thanks.
Honestly, I was considering getting the Eldar Triumvirate, cuz the Yncarne would make an awesome Slaanesh Prince...and the Yvraine would be a perfect IE base; swap an arm to the instrument, a Herald’s head from the chariot kit, and a huge claw on the left arm. Just shave off the Eldar runes, and good to go!
So I have played one practice and 3 RTT games using the Enrapturess so far. (I call mine Janis in honor of Janis Joplin who could really scream)
I am kind of liking her. Janis's guns are reliable at BS2 but not enough AP or ROF.
However just the threat of doubles = Perils of the Warp makes my opponent play back with their psychers.
My last game vs Thousand sons was funny with Ahriman flying further into his corner each turn as Janis advanced. Also had two rubric sorcerers pop themselves with back to back doubles (4's and then 5's) which was a pretty good laugh. (CP's were gone so no rerolls)
All that and writing this I just remembered I could have tried to bring models back as well
How about you all? what are your experiences?
I have had a similar experience. It made my Eldar opponent stop casting extra powers he didn't deem to be essential. Do you run just one or two? I have been running one so far but in larger games with a double battalion I may start running two. We just have so much room in our lists now.
Just 1 so far. My lists are tight on points as I am running 501 points of Helldrakes (3) in a CSM Air Wing detachment... they have been fantastic distractions that die, but usually require quite a bit of effort to kill. During which the rest of the list closes in. I think 2 will be too much. I'd rather have an exalted chariot or put it towards another prince or keeper. I find that you need 2-3 hearlds for that sweet +1 S locus.
Ah, I play mono Slaanesh Daemons so I have a bit more room in my lists with the favorable point changes. That air wing detachment sounds like a great idea though... my main issue anymore is flyers. Besides my DPs and the new harp I don’t have an answer to them.
HellDrakes are ok against flyers auto hit on the flamer and 2+ in combat. However where they shine is almost always charging something T1 and absorbing lots of firepower giving the rest of the army a chance to get close (they die every game but that is ok). I have consistently gotten 4 first round charges (seekers)
However I have a weird particular problem, in that I want to use Nighthaunt revenants etc for models. I guess that makes me lean toward more sword-armed types, unless i could represent daemonettes somehow with more obvious weaopns
I'm new to Daemons and making a force with 1000p of Renegades and Heretics, 0-500 points of a Questor Traitoris, and 500-1000 points of Daemons.|
What Daemons would best compliment my chaos mortals?
For reference my list is currently:
renegade commander, power fist 33
disciple command squad, missile launcher, command vox 49
disciple command squad, missile launcher, command vox 49
20 militia, 2 missile launchers, icon 115
20 militia, 2 missile launchers, icon 115
20 militia, 2 missile launchers, icon 115
2 leman russ, heavy bolters, heavy stubbers 340
basilisk, heavy stubber 110
6 renegade heavy weapons teams, heavy stubbers 30
6 renegade heavy weapons teams, heavy stubbers 30
6 renegade heavy weapons teams, heavy stubbers 30
daemon prince of ?
With what you have so far you'll be able to clear chaff pretty well so you need some anti tank and anti elire. You're going to want a second battallion, 8 CP won't be enough to keep using rotate ion sheilds and trail of destruction on your knight. So bloodletters are your best option. I'd take 1 or 2 20 -30 man blobs with the banner Plus you csn take the Khorne DP with the skullreaver relic for some serious anti titanic.
You don't need to go mono Khorne though, so you could take brimstones or nurglings to fill a cheap detachment. Although rerolling charges is good it's not essential and bloodletters can burn through cp quickly.
Finally I'd consider the Castallan (if you have the points) or gallant (if you want a cheaper bullet sponge) for your knight. The Castallan with adequate bodies to protect from mele and smite is a thing to behold. Plus multiple knights isn't great with renegades.
However I have a weird particular problem, in that I want to use Nighthaunt revenants etc for models. I guess that makes me lean toward more sword-armed types, unless i could represent daemonettes somehow with more obvious weaopns
Dreadscythe Harridans look the part for Daemonettes & Heralds
Lady Olynder is perfect for KoS or flying DP Myrmourn Banshees, Crawlocke et al, Hexwraiths, or Glaivewrath Stalkers could be Fiends or Seekers
Kurdoss or Tomb Banshee could be an Infernal Enrapturess
Very true, I like all the models except personally I think the revenants look a lot better than the harridans. I could still do slaanesh but just use revenants anyway to be honest. Any of the chaos gods would be fine in theory.
The meta isnt wrong per se, but i see them in different lights. They don't compete with each other really. Bloodletters are best when your dropping large blobs onto enemy units through deep strike (the venerable bloodletter bomb). Slaanesh demonettes work best in small 10 man blobs running full speed up the board within their loci bubble. If you tried to reverse their rolls both units would do worse in that respective roll. A 30 blob demonette squad isnt going to hurt as much deep striking then charging and 6 10-demon blobs of bloodletters are going to take longer and get shot more before getting into range to assault.
I'm just trying to be honest and not too fanboyish, because you never, ever, ever see Daemonettes in tournament netlists. To me, that suggests that ultimately Bloodletters are the better choice in a TAC list.
I will say though that other units aligned to Khorne are inferior to their Slaaneshi counterparts. A KoS is a better choice than a BT, though neither are really 'good'. A Slaanesh DP is better than a Khorne DP. Fiends are better than Bloodcrushers. Seekers are better than Flesh Hounds.
Of course, there's not really anything to stop you mixing and matching if you have the points. Two Khorne Heralds and 90 Bloodletters will run you ca. 750pts and get you 5CP, leaving you half, or more than half your points, available for other things.
I mean, I think it's a style choice to some degree. Daemonettes don't hit as hard as bloodletters, and aren't as nearly as tough as plaguebearers and they don't have solid shooting like pink horrors.
But, they are cheaper and faster than any of the above. They will bully non-melee units quite well, and have an easier time getting into melee than blood letters. Plaguebearers are probably the best troop choice, and you see that in their appearance on other lists, but daemonettes require the least set up and support, fill cheap troop choices and well...look pretty darn cool, if you value that. I do, personally.
10 vs 30 I think is debatable. I kind of dig a minimum battalion with a 3 groups of 10 a herald and an enrapturess. 300 points for psychic disruption, quick placement and smite+psuedo lascannon isn't the worst way to earn 5 command points for chaos something-or-other. Make it 680 and it's a decent army core (though I'd probably give the herald a chariot at that point); 90 is no small number of bodies, even at t3.
Plague bearers will hit harder and last longer, but won't be as good against psychic, slower and will be considerably more expensive. Bloodletter bombs are sweet, but don't serve for board control at all. Different niche.
I would say that Daemonettes require more support than Bloodletters do, which ups the cost of a Slaanesh Detachment considerably and makes them less attractive to an optimized list.
Bloodletters can basically do their thing on their own, while Daemonettes need support from Seekers and Fiends, at a minimum.
Excommunicatus wrote: I would say that Daemonettes require more support than Bloodletters do, which ups the cost of a Slaanesh Detachment considerably and makes them less attractive to an optimized list.
Bloodletters can basically do their thing on their own, while Daemonettes need support from Seekers and Fiends, at a minimum.
Bingo. Bloodletters are self-sufficient to a large degree; they don't need support to wreck house. As well, a bunch of Str 6 attacks at AP-3 and up to 2 damage each is pretty scary hitting on 2's - in a good round they can topple almost anything in the game.
Daemonettes suffer the same durability issues, but are quicker, and need support to do good damage. Bloodletters can be plugged into any list and work, Demonettes cannot.
Demonettes would be a great chaff clearing unit, however, Horrors outshine them in that regard... its just hard to argue a case for Demonettes unless your a Slaneesh player.
Also, while I agree with the earlier post about Daemonette minis being aesthetically pleasing, the poster who asked for thoughts has already said they won't be using GW minis to represent them.
Excommunicatus wrote: Also, while I agree with the earlier post about Daemonette minis being aesthetically pleasing, the poster who asked for thoughts has already said they won't be using GW minis to represent them.
Yeah, or rather I will be using GW minis from their other game system to represent them.
Quick question: is the Juggernaut used for the second version of the Herald of Khorne the same size or larger than those for the Bloodcrushers? I'm asking this because I'm thinking of combining the Herald in a Bloodthrone kit with a Bloodcrusher Juggernaut to create a cavalry Herald.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Quick question: is the Juggernaut used for the second version of the Herald of Khorne the same size or larger than those for the Bloodcrushers? I'm asking this because I'm thinking of combining the Herald in a Bloodthrone kit with a Bloodcrusher Juggernaut to create a cavalry Herald.
Pretty sure that there's the option to make a herald in the bloodcrusher kit. It's been a while since I made them but there was some larger horns and sword.
The Herald on a Juggernaut kit is the same size as the ones in the Bloodcrusher box. The Throne’s Herald is considerably bigger. The Juggernaut for the Herald is the same size as the Juggernauts in the Bloodcrusher box.
Gaze of fate is a must. Otherwise it depends on what is taking the spells and what else your bringing. Flickering flames on a large squad of pink horrors can do work.
Had an excellent psyker round which surprised me, I mostly play AoS so I've discarded a lot of Tzeentch's spells for looking lackluster in comparison to their AoS counterparts!
Boon of change for that 8 toughness on my LoC Delicious Gaze of Fate re-roll every turn
And managed to get off d6 mortal wound Infernal Gateway on a crowd of 3 units.
Was surprised at how tanky the LoC got with the impossible robe and that added toughness, well worth his points because my opponent kept trying to shoot him down with his heavy weapons.
only 1/3 chance you get +1 T not a very reliable power, gaze of fate is a good power, infernal gateway is situational , if opponent know how it works, he plays to minimize casualties, you must target the model closer then the units within 3" of it, if you move/place units properly ,hard you can catch 3 units with it, sometimes can happen most time not.
knas wrote: So generally if playing with Daemons of Tzeentch, which spells do people prefer to use?
If you have blue scribes they can automatically manifest an already manifested psychic power, like flickering flames, which means +2 to wound for your pink horror unit. Or a second boon of change. T9 on your LoC ? S5/T5 on your pink horrors ? Second gaze of fate ? All possible. And you can re-roll that auto manifest roll with gaze of fate. Whatever power they manifest cant be banned.
knas wrote: So generally if playing with Daemons of Tzeentch, which spells do people prefer to use?
If you have blue scribes they can automatically manifest an already manifested psychic power, like flickering flames, which means +2 to wound for your pink horror unit. Or a second boon of change. T9 on your LoC ? S5/T5 on your pink horrors ? Second gaze of fate ? All possible. And you can re-roll that auto manifest roll with gaze of fate. Whatever power they manifest cant be banned.
I feel like this is something that I’d expect to be disallowed, however casting the same spell multiple times is totally allowed in open and narrative and stacking has not been ruled out... hmm, maybe if a load of Heralds power Magnus up to Godzilla tier in a significant, recorded public game
Hmm. Back in the realm of reliable matched play, you can stack it with VotLW on Obliterators. That’s interesting. I would like to have four of each Daemon marine unit in my Word Bearers... Crimson Crown the Khorne ones, Slaaneshis bring a top tier CSM Stratagem, Nurgle ones can charge up Epidemius... think I just figured out how to complete my tetrad.
Mostly minimum ones for display, but I’m going to try a horde of Slaanesh Possessed. Warptime them, have a Herald nearby, get some Fiends to join the T1 charge, get Fabius Bile to enhance them (with Delightful Agonies, 67% lower casualty rate than unbuffed 1W models)... pull it off, it’ll be like the enemy deployment zone is a tarpit set on fire
blackmage wrote: only 1/3 chance you get +1 T not a very reliable power, gaze of fate is a good power, infernal gateway is situational , if opponent know how it works, he plays to minimize casualties, you must target the model closer then the units within 3" of it, if you move/place units properly ,hard you can catch 3 units with it, sometimes can happen most time not.
The match featured a single objective to hold, which is why I gambled on gate . For the LoC with Sword the +1 S or +1A is decent as well I guess, but I lucked out with the +1 T I agree.
Overall I was just happily surprised, a lot of our local meta features eldars and their farseers and warlocks always seem to outshine my Tzeentch daemons in their spellcasting.
knas wrote: So generally if playing with Daemons of Tzeentch, which spells do people prefer to use?
If you have blue scribes they can automatically manifest an already manifested psychic power, like flickering flames, which means +2 to wound for your pink horror unit. Or a second boon of change. T9 on your LoC ? S5/T5 on your pink horrors ? Second gaze of fate ? All possible. And you can re-roll that auto manifest roll with gaze of fate. Whatever power they manifest cant be banned.
Tzeentch daemons are surprisingly bad at spellcasting compared to Thousand Sons and Eldar. We get some okay spells but not nearly as much in terms of cast buffs or rerolls.
The best damage daemons have against a Castellan is a Khorne DP with Skullreaver. The tricky part is getting him into combat. Bloodletter bombs are the other decent option assuming you have a way to clear the screen before T3.
I use a bloodletter bomb to deal with knights. 30 bloodletters and a herald seems to do the job nicely with the fight again strat and the 4++ strat. The trick is catching the guy out in the open to hit him.
Azuza001 wrote: I use a bloodletter bomb to deal with knights. 30 bloodletters and a herald seems to do the job nicely with the fight again strat and the 4++ strat. The trick is catching the guy out in the open to hit him.
I agree here. My best anti knight stuff is dumping bloodletters on em. That 2 damage on 6s to wound is NASTY en masse.
knas wrote: But you can't benefit twice from the same ability either way right?
You cant benefit from the same ability twice, thats true. But psychic powers arent abilities. Stratagems arent abilities either.
Its random enough i wouldnt bother relying on it.
Its not at all random.
You can rely on it to 100% cast the worst spell in the given scenario, most notably casting infenral gate when the closest enemy target is alone, in the middle of your army.\
Seriously, this somehow happens EVERY game I take him (at one game it happened three times x_x)
knas wrote: But you can't benefit twice from the same ability either way right?
You cant benefit from the same ability twice, thats true. But psychic powers arent abilities. Stratagems arent abilities either.
Its random enough i wouldnt bother relying on it.
Its not at all random.
You can rely on it to 100% cast the worst spell in the given scenario, most notably casting infenral gate when the closest enemy target is alone, in the middle of your army.\
Seriously, this somehow happens EVERY game I take him (at one game it happened three times x_x)
If you place the blue scribes within 18" of enemy models, and within 18" of friendly models, there is only a 1/6 chance that nothing will happen. That is when you roll a 6 for infernal gateway, which has 12" range. All other spells will have an effect. And if you have your gaze of fate re-roll you can re-roll that 6.
Am i right in thinking that added models from the daemonic icon, when i roll 1 for morale, can take a unit above its starting strength, without costing reinforcement points ?
p5freak wrote: Am i right in thinking that added models from the daemonic icon, when i roll 1 for morale, can take a unit above its starting strength, without costing reinforcement points ?
I was wondering about this the other day. I don't think you can though as it says add D6 slain models to the unit which implies it would cap out at their original starting strength as if the models weren't slain they can't be added.
Edit: FAQ suggests you can take the unit above it's starting strength but would need to pay the reinforcement points for the models over and above
Edit: FAQ suggests you can take the unit above it's starting strength but would need to pay the reinforcement points for the models over and above
Ok, found it in the BRB update 1.3.
Q: What about rules that add models to existing units; do I
need to pay reinforcement points for those models?
A: No (unless the rule itself says otherwise or adding the
models would take the unit above its starting size).
p5freak wrote: Am i right in thinking that added models from the daemonic icon, when i roll 1 for morale, can take a unit above its starting strength, without costing reinforcement points ?
I was wondering about this the other day. I don't think you can though as it says add D6 slain models to the unit which implies it would cap out at their original starting strength as if the models weren't slain they can't be added.
Edit: FAQ suggests you can take the unit above it's starting strength but would need to pay the reinforcement points for the models over and above
D6 slain models may = models that have been part of the unit and removed from play due to unsaved wounds...
...BUT. Three Pink Horrors die. I’ve got three Blue Horrors to hand, and pay the Reinforcement Points for them. Then, in the Morale Phase, I roll a one for the unit. Would those Pink Horrors coming back to reality will take the unit “above its starting strength”?
p5freak wrote: Am i right in thinking that added models from the daemonic icon, when i roll 1 for morale, can take a unit above its starting strength, without costing reinforcement points ?
I was wondering about this the other day. I don't think you can though as it says add D6 slain models to the unit which implies it would cap out at their original starting strength as if the models weren't slain they can't be added.
Edit: FAQ suggests you can take the unit above it's starting strength but would need to pay the reinforcement points for the models over and above
D6 slain models may = models that have been part of the unit and removed from play due to unsaved wounds...
...BUT. Three Pink Horrors die. I’ve got three Blue Horrors to hand, and pay the Reinforcement Points for them. Then, in the Morale Phase, I roll a one for the unit. Would those Pink Horrors coming back to reality will take the unit “above its starting strength”?
Hmm, it's debatable as to what is meant by "starting strength". If you started with 30 pinks, and now have 27 pinks and 3 blues are they the same "strength"? A pink horror and a blue horror aren't the same and don't have the same offensive output or defensive ability, and so personally I would say no, but I can easily see the validity of the argument on the other side of saying that the unit is 30 models strong.
In short, send an email to GW's rules team. Until they FAQ it just talk about it with your opponent.
The way I'd look at is you've added three models to the unit this game, and paid the points for doing so. Replacing the slain pink horrors would only really be an issue if the blue horrors were free when a pink died.
Now, if you had those three added blue horrors shot off the board and had the opportunity to re-add them, that's where I reckon it gets super murky!
unit strengt=number of model matter nothing what kind of models you have into it, so yes 30 pinks or 27 pinks+3 blue= same identical strengt, no need for faq.
Probably over costed since his price hike, but looks to me to be the only viable exalted greater daemon out of the four. Give him the fleshy abundance and virulent blessing psychic powers and he is an absolute bulwark/beatstick. Cast miasma on him and/or give him the plaguefly hive WT and he is tougher still, and can regenerate further with the strategem.
His buff to other units is nice but not spectacular, and he is unfortunately very slow without trees or bilepiper. Can be buffed insanely by epidemius, probably best achieved with DG plagueburst crawlers chipping away at the tally.
Could he be semi-competitive?
i saw a brief conversation on summoning a couple of pages back. Turn 1, biker lord zips up field and gets into position... that's a 20" move eh? Turn 2, prime position to summon within 12, a unit or two of daemons. Not too shabby eh??
blackmage wrote: unit strengt=number of model matter nothing what kind of models you have into it, so yes 30 pinks or 27 pinks+3 blue= same identical strengt, no need for faq.
Eeer, no its not?
In no place is it defined what "unit strength" or "full strength" is.
If the claim is that it's purely the number of models, than you surly don't mind that when using an ability (or stratagem) that returns a unit to full strength, I'll give it different weapons? perhaps ones far more powerful than it initially had on the list?
The only proper way to define "full strength" without creating nonsense cases is "the unit in its original form", and lacking 3 pinks yet having 3 extra blues is NOT the original form.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Are Exalted Flamers good anti-tank daemons? I read on a Reddit chat that they were.
They're not absolutely competitive but with the points drops they are pretty good. The main issue in a competitive environment is they don't have enough dakka per points to be your only source of anti-tank. So while they will be outputting some decent support damage every turn, you will still need something beefier to actually kill tanks. I think they can be fun for finishing off things like T8 armor opportunistically. It's almost like having an extra smite in the shooting phase.
eternalxfl wrote: i saw a brief conversation on summoning a couple of pages back. Turn 1, biker lord zips up field and gets into position... that's a 20" move eh? Turn 2, prime position to summon within 12, a unit or two of daemons. Not too shabby eh??
Except for the part where he then has to not die, roll his random dice for summoning, and they're still at best no closer to the enemy than they would be if you just used Denizens of the Warp (though at least you saved some CP). Summoning is still not good.
eternalxfl wrote: i saw a brief conversation on summoning a couple of pages back. Turn 1, biker lord zips up field and gets into position... that's a 20" move eh? Turn 2, prime position to summon within 12, a unit or two of daemons. Not too shabby eh??
Except for the part where he then has to not die, roll his random dice for summoning, and they're still at best no closer to the enemy than they would be if you just used Denizens of the Warp (though at least you saved some CP). Summoning is still not good.
The main problem I see with summoning is that it is tied to am immobile Chaos character. That means that you have to 1) know where you're going to summon a unit the turn before you do it, even with the swirling battlefield; and 2) hope your enemy doesn't either prevent you from doing so by moving too close or make your landing point irrelevant by moving away your target of choice.
Those are both variables over which you have very little control. I'd much rather pay the CP and feel secure that my Pinks can come down wherever they need to, or my Letter Bomb can come down absolutely where it HAS to.
blackmage wrote: unit strengt=number of model matter nothing what kind of models you have into it, so yes 30 pinks or 27 pinks+3 blue= same identical strengt, no need for faq.
Eeer, no its not?
In no place is it defined what "unit strength" or "full strength" is.
If the claim is that it's purely the number of models, than you surly don't mind that when using an ability (or stratagem) that returns a unit to full strength, I'll give it different weapons? perhaps ones far more powerful than it initially had on the list?
The only proper way to define "full strength" without creating nonsense cases is "the unit in its original form", and lacking 3 pinks yet having 3 extra blues is NOT the original form.
yes it is indeed at least that is how ruled at tournaments, so for me is ok i dont care of garagehammer rules galore
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ArcaneHorror wrote: Are Exalted Flamers good anti-tank daemons? I read on a Reddit chat that they were.
if they was good most demon lists would run them... but they dont, they are good in casual lists for friendly games
slave.entity wrote:They're not absolutely competitive but with the points drops they are pretty good. The main issue in a competitive environment is they don't have enough dakka per points to be your only source of anti-tank. So while they will be outputting some decent support damage every turn, you will still need something beefier to actually kill tanks. I think they can be fun for finishing off things like T8 armor opportunistically. It's almost like having an extra smite in the shooting phase.
blackmage wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post: if they was good most demon lists would run them... but they dont, they are good in casual lists for friendly games
Ok, I'll probably keep them in the wings and use them to finish off any advancing armor that gets through my main heavy units.
exalted aren't a thing against Knight 3 hits (usually at 4+ unless they dont move)ap -4 is pointless cause Ik anyway save at 5++ at worst, and just d3 damage.... nothing great
Chaos daemons got a top 6 in LVO, using a summoning list of all things with almost 700 points in reinforcements. Not sure what he routinely summoned though. I'd be interested to know.
I have started a daemon army recently and everyone says summoning is useless, I don't think so. You can summon whatever you want, if you roll the needed number, and even if you don't, you can summon something else, less powerful. There is almost no limit to what you can summon. You can summon the best counter units to your opponent's army. After seeing what he puts on the table.
p5freak wrote: I have started a daemon army recently and everyone says summoning is useless, I don't think so. You can summon whatever you want, if you roll the needed number, and even if you don't, you can summon something else, less powerful. There is almost no limit to what you can summon. You can summon the best counter units to your opponent's army. After seeing what he puts on the table.
You could do that... If you want to waste turn 1 sat in your deployment summoning an army whilst your opponent shoots you/scores objectives.
Or, you could start the game with a well rounded army and use turn 1 to cover the ground between you and your opponent/score objectives.
There'll never be a point in your game where you go "Oh damn, I wish I'd brought *insert unit here* instead of *insert unit here*" as long as you've built a good list.
p5freak wrote: I have started a daemon army recently and everyone says summoning is useless, I don't think so. You can summon whatever you want, if you roll the needed number, and even if you don't, you can summon something else, less powerful. There is almost no limit to what you can summon. You can summon the best counter units to your opponent's army. After seeing what he puts on the table.
Joshua Death is a veteran player and got multiple TOP8s in big events.
He knows what unit should be summoned under what situation.
Look at how many models he bringed to event:
I don't know the game as good as him, so I don't play summoning. Your opinion?
Could we please get the HD image nested in spoiler tags, it’s playing merry Hell with how Dakka is displayed -.-
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for how a Summoning list took top 6... hmm. The mechanics of summoning have changed... instead of ‘cannot summon within no man’s land on the first turn’ it’s ‘cannot summon at all in the first turn’. Maybe he used fast, tough screening units to escort summoners into position T1, summoned fire/letter bombs T2? Thing about that is, much less CP, and no 3D6 charge on the letters. Hmm, curious
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see LoC, Tzeentch chariots, EFs, BoNs, maybe a DP? There’ll be Tzeentch Heralds in there as well, as the chariots are riderless...
You could do that... If you want to waste turn 1 sat in your deployment summoning an army whilst your opponent shoots you/scores objectives.
Or, you could start the game with a well rounded army and use turn 1 to cover the ground between you and your opponent/score objectives.
There'll never be a point in your game where you go "Oh damn, I wish I'd brought *insert unit here* instead of *insert unit here*" as long as you've built a good list.
The fact that you can get multiple TOP8s in big events proves me right that summoning as you play is not a bad idea. Its not like you should start with a 500 pts army and summon everything, which isnt even possible in matched play. 1500 points can get you 100+ models, which is good enough for board control. The rest could be reinforcement points.
The fact that you can get multiple TOP8s in big events proves me right that summoning as you play is not a bad idea..
I don't think one of the top players in the world scoring good with an oddball strategy proves anything but the fact that good playing skills is just as big a component to this game as list building is.
Now - are there any reports on how he played with summoning? Would be really interesting to know!
The fact that you can get multiple TOP8s in big events proves me right that summoning as you play is not a bad idea..
I don't think one of the top players in the world scoring good with an oddball strategy proves anything but the fact that good playing skills is just as big a component to this game as list building is.
Now - are there any reports on how he played with summoning? Would be really interesting to know!
I think he has a point though. He didn't use a mono-Grey Knight list or anything and make up for it with his "skill" lol.
On the flip side, I am not sold on the LVO being an indicator for balance. The missions and everything are so different it may as well be a different game from what I have seen... ah well. Guess that's the nature of the internet.
I think most of us, or at least people I've played with for the past decade, only play by GW's rules. Chapter Approved/errata included if we are aware of it. Never played ITC anything.
I think most of us, or at least people I've played with for the past decade, only play by GW's rules. Chapter Approved/errata included if we are aware of it. Never played ITC anything.
Any beginner guides on learning ITC rules? Have no clue how to play them
I think most of us, or at least people I've played with for the past decade, only play by GW's rules. Chapter Approved/errata included if we are aware of it. Never played ITC anything.
Any beginner guides on learning ITC rules? Have no clue how to play them
Here is the Google doc for the missions used at the LVO. They have a couple different versions of this doc depending on what you're doing but as you can see, there's a good amount of tweaking/changes done to the missions. I believe more real variety was seen at the Warhammer tournament hosted by GW in the UK. I could be wrong though, and not all Codexs were out at that point either... so this year will be interesting with practically everything being released.
I thought I heard somewhere that LVO was allowing summoning on the first turn since the models are not coming from reserves. Which seemed strange, because I think the summoning rules treat summoned models as if they were coming from reserves. I dunno, I wasn't there.
Summoned units are treated as reinforcements when they arrive on the battlefield, but they arent reinforcements. Because they arent set up during deployment, thus the tactical reserves rule does not apply. Its a new unit added to your army, its not even part of a detachment. Which means its not limited by the suggestion of 3 same units. And btw, there is no such thing as coming from reserves in 8th. Its now called reinforcements.
I've got 3 renegade knights that I have painted up. One for Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. (Slaanesh is busy elsewhere. You really don't want to know to much about that).
Equipping these runs about 1000-1200 points, depending on the loadouts.
I've got a ton of daemons to use as another detachment. What would you add, daemon wise, to renegade knights?
This weekend I'm going to try this in an ITC game. (1989 points total)
Spoiler:
Super Heavy Detachment : 1189 pts
- Renegade Knight, gatling cannon, HF, Meltagun, Reaper chainsword
- Renegade Knight, heavy stubber, Thuderstrike Gauntlet, Reaper chainsword
- Renegade Knight, heavy stubber, heavy stubber, rapid file battlecannon, Reaper chainsword
Vanguard Detachment : 800 pts
- Bloodthirster of Insenate Rage w/Armor of Scorn + Glory of Battle (warlord)
- Soul Grinder
- Soul Grinder
- Soul Grinder
What do you think would be good addition to renegade knights for daemons? How could this be leveraged?
To be competitive I think I have taken a bunch of nurglings and maybe 30 plaugebaers. Support them and make them harder to kill.
No one wants too kill nurglings camping objectives when you have 3 knights threatening.
If it where me tho, pinks. 2x30 and some brimstones in the back. I like Tzeentch and don’t own any Nurgle at all. Only God I do not have anything of.
dont play mixed weapons IK. double gatling to both or double gatlings and double rapid fire cannon, they are threathing enough in cac with 12 str 8 ap -2 d3 damage attacks, let the one equipped for melee do the heavy lifting. If you have access to FW play, instead of grinders, 3 deredeos or 3 contemptors, double butcher.
With the current list for my Khorne Daemon army, I currently have it at 2040 points. Is this too much over that 2000 point limit? To compensate, I was thinking of getting rid of Be'lakor and giving his Oblivious To Pain trait to my Bloodmaster. If I did this, this would free up 200 points for me. I was thinking of adding three more Bloodcrushers and either another Bloodmaster or some more Bloodletters. I could also have no more Bloodcrushers and spam more Bloodletters. If I cut a bit more after removing Be'lakor, I could possibly have another Bloodthirster (Unfettered Fury or Wrath of Khorne). Or I could keep Be'lakor and just cut other things. I could also remove Be'lakor and instead have a Soul Grinder that I could put in and have heavy firepower with some extra points left over. I'm not sure what I should do. Here's my list as is (not organized at all):
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [Warlord] (Glory of Battle): 240
Skull Cannon (2): 180
Blood Throne: 105
Bloodcrushers (3): 141
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons: 156
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons: 180
Be’lakor [Warlord] (Oblivious to Pain): 240
Skulltaker [Warlord] (Devastating Blow): 84
Commanders and vehicles:
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [Warlord] (Glory of Battle): 240
Skull Cannon (2): 180
Blood Throne: 105
Bloodcrushers (3): 141
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons: 156
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons: 180
Soul Grinder (Oblivious to Pain): 180
Skulltaker [Warlord] (Devastating Blow): 84
Not so sure how else you want to build your list.
Do not just throw all model in and ask how people fell about your list when we clearly can’t see what you’re list is. All you did was to write down all models you have and wanted us to build the list for you.
For your first question, “is 40p to much over 2000p?”
YES! If you’re going to play a 2000p game it’s simple, it’s 2k maximum. Most list have around 1980-1997p but never over.
Not so sure how else you want to build your list.
Do not just throw all model in and ask how people fell about your list when we clearly can’t see what you’re list is. All you did was to write down all models you have and wanted us to build the list for you.
For your first question, “is 40p to much over 2000p?”
YES! If you’re going to play a 2000p game it’s simple, it’s 2k maximum. Most list have around 1980-1997p but never over.
Not trying to be a di** or anything.
Thanks for the ideas. Honestly, I was just looking for clarifications, but I truly do appreciate the help. I think I'll take out a Bloodletter or two to bring down the updated points level. I also thinking I'm going to give the Bloodthirster the Armour of Scorn artefact so as to counter any psychic attacks.
DTW coverage is a good idea. You may find it be more useful on the Bloodmaster - a lot of lists are built to kill a Knight on T1 and won’t struggle to bring down a BT.
Bletters like to be around the 25 models mark - enough to have the 20+ bonus after eating overwatch, so taking the difference out of them is probably a good call.
You may find in objective games that 2x25ish + 4x10 is more useful than 3x25ish + Crushers. They can hide and hold objectives and yield a lot more CP.
There are models which say you can only have one in your army. Like the blue scribes. Summoned units arent part of a detachment, is a unit which isnt part of a detachment part of my army ? Could i summon additional blue scribes ? Having 3 or 4 of them auto manifesting psychic powers sounds fun, because they can manifest psychic powers which already have been manifested.
lindsay40k wrote: DTW coverage is a good idea. You may find it be more useful on the Bloodmaster - a lot of lists are built to kill a Knight on T1 and won’t struggle to bring down a BT.
Bletters like to be around the 25 models mark - enough to have the 20+ bonus after eating overwatch, so taking the difference out of them is probably a good call.
You may find in objective games that 2x25ish + 4x10 is more useful than 3x25ish + Crushers. They can hide and hold objectives and yield a lot more CP.
Thanks, I made my Bloodmaster a fourth Warlord and gave him the artefact. As to the organization of the Bloodletters, does that mean I should get rid of Bloodcrushers in objective games and put in more BL's?
p5freak wrote: There are models which say you can only have one in your army. Like the blue scribes. Summoned units arent part of a detachment, is a unit which isnt part of a detachment part of my army ? Could i summon additional blue scribes ? Having 3 or 4 of them auto manifesting psychic powers sounds fun, because they can manifest psychic powers which already have been manifested.
Good question... logic would probably dictate you can only have one on the field at a time, but you can resummon them if they die. Might be addressed in a FAQ somewhere.
lindsay40k wrote: DTW coverage is a good idea. You may find it be more useful on the Bloodmaster - a lot of lists are built to kill a Knight on T1 and won’t struggle to bring down a BT.
Bletters like to be around the 25 models mark - enough to have the 20+ bonus after eating overwatch, so taking the difference out of them is probably a good call.
You may find in objective games that 2x25ish + 4x10 is more useful than 3x25ish + Crushers. They can hide and hold objectives and yield a lot more CP.
Thanks, I made my Bloodmaster a fourth Warlord and gave him the artefact. As to the organization of the Bloodletters, does that mean I should get rid of Bloodcrushers in objective games and put in more BL's?
Pretty much. BCs are still a serious buff and/or price cut away from being competitive. I love the models and have wanted to make them work for the past year and a half. Haven’t seen a single argument in their favour.
lindsay40k wrote: DTW coverage is a good idea. You may find it be more useful on the Bloodmaster - a lot of lists are built to kill a Knight on T1 and won’t struggle to bring down a BT.
Bletters like to be around the 25 models mark - enough to have the 20+ bonus after eating overwatch, so taking the difference out of them is probably a good call.
You may find in objective games that 2x25ish + 4x10 is more useful than 3x25ish + Crushers. They can hide and hold objectives and yield a lot more CP.
Thanks, I made my Bloodmaster a fourth Warlord and gave him the artefact. As to the organization of the Bloodletters, does that mean I should get rid of Bloodcrushers in objective games and put in more BL's?
Pretty much. BCs are still a serious buff and/or price cut away from being competitive. I love the models and have wanted to make them work for the past year and a half. Haven’t seen a single argument in their favour.
Alright. I was thinking of using them as fast attack heavy cavalry, but if they're no good, I'll dump them in favor of something else. That leaves me with 141 points which I could use for 20 Bloodletters. Or I could put in another Daemon Prince (though that would leave at 2003 points). A Skull Cannon is possible as well, which would allow me to have 5 more Bloodletters and would give me even more firepower. Another option could be to have a Flesh Hound unit and Karanak (leaving me at 2002 points). Even though Karanak is a unit unto himself, since he too is a Flesh Hound, could I fuse him into single Flesh Hound unit, with four regular ones to back him up? If not, I could possibly have five Flesh Hounds (that's all I have lol) with 9 more Bloodletters or Karanak and 10 more Bloodletters. So many damned combinations to go with!
I need help with a rules question for a tournament I'm attending tomorrow. It regards Forgeworld models so if this isn't the right forum feel free to ignore this post.
I'm playing an alpha legion army in a 1250 point list, pretty basic, CSM, cultists and whatnot, however, I'm bringing A forgeworld Flyer. This unit has hard to hit. My question is, does this combine with the alpha legion tactic that gives units -1 to hit to models 12 away? If an enemy shoots this flyer and it's beyond 12 inches, do they get -2 to hit it?
- I find the use of summoning only for:
