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Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/17 17:46:52


Post by: JNAProductions


 p5freak wrote:
Does that FW flyer have the INFANTRY, HELBRUTE or BIKERS keyword ? Please read the rules thoroughly.

Btw, eldar can stack up to -11 to hit, and yes that legal.


How the hell do they do that?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/17 18:09:20


Post by: blackmage


they have not


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/17 19:07:17


Post by: p5freak


 JNAProductions wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Does that FW flyer have the INFANTRY, HELBRUTE or BIKERS keyword ? Please read the rules thoroughly.

Btw, eldar can stack up to -11 to hit, and yes that legal.


How the hell do they do that?


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/755125.page


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/17 20:11:17


Post by: JNAProductions


Four points of those -11 are from things that have nothing to do with the Eldar.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 05:42:27


Post by: jivardi


I want some opinions on Greater Demons.

I have a hodge podge of demons, ie some from all 4 factions. The one thing I'm lacking is a GD.

I really like the Kairos/Lord of Change model from GW. I know the GD's have gotten a pretty good points drop. Is Kairos worth the points?

I do have more Nurgle than anything so was considering a GUO. Games typically run 1500-1750 at my local store and NOBODY has a power list.

What's the best loadout for a GUO? Is Rotigus any good?



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 05:51:30


Post by: Raichase


 p5freak wrote:
There are models which say you can only have one in your army. Like the blue scribes. Summoned units arent part of a detachment, is a unit which isnt part of a detachment part of my army ? Could i summon additional blue scribes ? Having 3 or 4 of them auto manifesting psychic powers sounds fun, because they can manifest psychic powers which already have been manifested.


For some reason the only FAQ answer of note is in the Chaos Space Marine FAQ and not the Daemon one:

Q: If I have a Daemon model that can only be included once
in my army – for example, the Changeling – and that model is
slain during the game, can I use Daemonic Ritual to attempt to
summon it and add it to my army again?
A: Yes. Note that if you’re playing a matched play game
you’ll need the appropriate reinforcement points to do so.


Reading between the lines, that would say that it needs to die before you can summon it again.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 07:02:08


Post by: slave.entity


jivardi wrote:
I want some opinions on Greater Demons.

I have a hodge podge of demons, ie some from all 4 factions. The one thing I'm lacking is a GD.

I really like the Kairos/Lord of Change model from GW. I know the GD's have gotten a pretty good points drop. Is Kairos worth the points?

I do have more Nurgle than anything so was considering a GUO. Games typically run 1500-1750 at my local store and NOBODY has a power list.

What's the best loadout for a GUO? Is Rotigus any good?



Kairos/LoC would be great for your meta. They were always a fun pick in casual games and with the points reductions they're even more viable. None of the GDs are obscenely strong but in a 1500-1750 casual meta IMO all of them would be perfect. Strong enough to feel like GDs, but weak enough to keep it a reasonably fair fight.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 13:22:12


Post by: jivardi


Thank you! I just love the aesthetic of all of the GD (minus the current KoS but here is hoping for a new one of those by Summer).



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 14:56:24


Post by: labmouse42


jivardi wrote:
I want some opinions on Greater Demons.
This past weekend I ran a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. For 260 points, this guy was the MVP of my army.

I loaded him up with Armor of Scorn, so he was a 4++ and could deny. When he was focus fired, I would pop Warp Surge on him for a 3++ save.

He was my warlord, so I have him "Glory of Battle", giving him +1 attack when outnumbered. This gave him 8 attacks. In one round, I had him fly into a squad of 30 boys, and he swung 16 times (using the sweeping blow of axe of khorne), hitting 16 times (completely average since 6s hit twice) and killing 14 of them. At the end of the phase, I used Frenetic bloodlust to swing another 16 times, reducing the squad to 3 boys, which then evaporated due to morale.

He did die in nearly every game eventually, but overall he was a great model for only 260 points.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 15:50:55


Post by: Excommunicatus


My only experience is Zarakynel.

I don't recommend Her.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 15:54:22


Post by: BleachHawk


 labmouse42 wrote:

I loaded him up with Armor of Scorn, so he was a 4++ and could deny. When he was focus fired, I would pop Warp Surge on him for a 3++ save.


Warp Surge was faq'ed to improve invuln saves up to a maximum of 4++, so no 3++ sadly :(


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 18:18:42


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


Such a lame change.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 19:00:00


Post by: p5freak


 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Such a lame change.


Yea, its lame that 30 pinkies cant get a 3+ inv anymore, for 1 CP


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 19:05:00


Post by: Excommunicatus


They could have worded the fix in a way that still let GD and DP take advantage of it.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 19:48:40


Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape


In the context of a Bloodthirster getting a 3++. Just heavy handed, as per usual. I agree, a mob of lesser daemons are not a “fair” candidate.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 20:14:54


Post by: labmouse42


It was extremely good, and so I could see why they did not want the BT getting a 3++. He was able to absorb a lot of firepower and keep going.

Lets look at it in terms of forcing saves. A BT has 16 wounds.
If the BT has a 5++, then when you force 20.8 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 4++, then when you force 32 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 3++, then when you force 48 wounds, it will die.

Things are more complicated that this. The BT has a normal save of a 3+, so there will be some cases where the BT can use it's regular save over the daemonic one. I found a few cases were the BT was taking a wound from a grot blaster, and the 3+ save was used.

The BT also degrades, which means that keeping those wounds intact is even more important.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 21:26:17


Post by: operkoi


 labmouse42 wrote:
It was extremely good, and so I could see why they did not want the BT getting a 3++. He was able to absorb a lot of firepower and keep going.

Lets look at it in terms of forcing saves. A BT has 16 wounds.
If the BT has a 5++, then when you force 20.8 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 4++, then when you force 32 wounds, it will die.
If the BT has a 3++, then when you force 48 wounds, it will die.

Things are more complicated that this. The BT has a normal save of a 3+, so there will be some cases where the BT can use it's regular save over the daemonic one. I found a few cases were the BT was taking a wound from a grot blaster, and the 3+ save was used.

The BT also degrades, which means that keeping those wounds intact is even more important.


By far the worst exploiter of warp surge was tzeentch, using impossible robe a LOC or prince could RAW get a 2++ that the player could choose to reroll at the cost of rerolled ones causing instant death


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/20 21:40:30


Post by: labmouse42


I was doing some musing about playing daemons, and wanted to bounce some thoughts off the dakka krew.

Plaguebearers
For purposes of delivery of exalted flamers, daemon princes, or heralds, these guys seem like great buys. 220 points gets you 30 models that are hard to shift and give excellent board control.
Add spoilpox to the mix, then this horde is shambling up ~11.5 inches a turn!
How could you use 60-90 of these guys? Well, what comes to my mind is 'use them to screen more deadly daemons'. The question is, what kind of daemons? That's what the rest of this post will be about.

BloodMaster
These guys got cheaper. At 56 points, the BloodMaster will charge with 4 swings at STR 7, AP -3, and D3 dmg. For the point cost, he's not bad.
Having a few of these hidden through your plague bearers could be a nasty shock for an unsuspecting opponent. You could also use them to summon other daemons.

Changecaster / Fateskimmer
The changecaster is 65 points for a psyker. 20 more points gives that same psyker a 14" move. Given the synergy with exalted flamers, this seems like a no-brainer upgrade.

The synergy with flamers is also strong here. They can either be summoned or denizens of the warp. 6 flamers is 8pp to summon, or 1 CP to deep strike. They do 6d6 STR 5 (~21 hits) with a herald that are -1 AP. For clearing out grots, that's very solid. Given that you can summon them up to 12" from a herald, and they can shoot another 12", that's a 24" threat range. At 150 points, they are not bad.

Horrors are also another good option for summoning. 20 horrors is also PP8, and only 1 CP to deep strike, which throws out 60 STR 4 (with herald) shots (~30 hits) for 140 points.

Between the two, the flamers are more fragile (only having 12 wounds, and being vulnerable to multi-damage weapons) while the horrors are less mobile. If you are summoning, then you can choose which to use based upon your situation.

Exalted Flamers
At 70 points a buy, these guys seem like the bees knees. Three STR 9 (10 w/herald) BS 3+ shots, -4 ap, D3 wounds. They could also be used to shoot d6 shots, which is useful as they will auto-hit.
Taking 3 of these with a fluxmaster seems like a no-brainer for any daemon army. 295 points for 9 of those anti-armor shots, and a psyker-summoner is a great deal.

Blue Scribes
75 points for a free random power cast each turn is not bad. This is a way to get two casts of flickering fire a round. Given they also give general psychic denial, they seem a cool, if specialized, choice.

Masque of Slaanesh
For 65 points, you get 5 STR 4, AP -2 (-4), D2 attacks. That's a pretty moderate damage output, but the real advantage here is The Eternal Dance, which will let your plaguebearers get +1 to hit an enemy unit.
If you take heralds of slaanesh, these got up to STR 5 attacks.

Heralds of Slaanesh
60 points for a psyker that can throw out 4 STR 5 attacks. Casting symphony of pain, or pavane of slaanesh on a large unit can be extremely rewarding.
For direct hitting power, the khorne heralds hit harder than slaanesh ones,

Be'Lakor
For 240 points you can get a universal DP. Be'Lakor is good, but overall I think you are better off buying a D-Thirster and deep striking it.

Daemon Princes
This is kind of a 'duh' unit. What kind of DP you bring depends on the army you are bringing.

Mixing it Up
The best part about this is how this mixes everything up, letting you take advantage of more relics / psychic disciplines.
* A'Rgath will give your khorne herald four STR 8, -4 AP D3 swings in assault, rerolling wounds against characters.
* Impossible robe gives your herald a 3+ save.
* A poxbringer with corruption is STR 8, AP-3, D3 damage rerolling to-wounds
* A slaanesh DP with soulstealer is constantly regenerating wounds.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/21 17:55:46


Post by: Elric Greywolf


operkoi wrote:
By far the worst exploiter of warp surge was tzeentch, using impossible robe a LOC or prince could RAW get a 2++ that the player could choose to reroll at the cost of rerolled ones causing instant death


Not quite true--Warp Surge has always stated that you cannot re-roll saves for the affected unit. So the 2++ LoC couldn't use his Impossible reroll WHILE he was surged.
Still pretty good, IMO, and it was one of my star units. 2++ and -1D warlord trait meant that guy rarely died; meanwhile, my Fire Bomb, Letter Bomb, and Virus Bomb were all running rampant across the field.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/22 17:47:02


Post by: ArcaneHorror


labmouse42 wrote:
jivardi wrote:
I want some opinions on Greater Demons.
This past weekend I ran a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. For 260 points, this guy was the MVP of my army.

I loaded him up with Armor of Scorn, so he was a 4++ and could deny. When he was focus fired, I would pop Warp Surge on him for a 3++ save.

He was my warlord, so I have him "Glory of Battle", giving him +1 attack when outnumbered. This gave him 8 attacks. In one round, I had him fly into a squad of 30 boys, and he swung 16 times (using the sweeping blow of axe of khorne), hitting 16 times (completely average since 6s hit twice) and killing 14 of them. At the end of the phase, I used Frenetic bloodlust to swing another 16 times, reducing the squad to 3 boys, which then evaporated due to morale.

He did die in nearly every game eventually, but overall he was a great model for only 260 points.


Wow, that's impressive. Even with the new rules changes, would it be possible for me to use my Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury to such an effective extent? Right now he's my warlord and has the Oblivious To Pain trait. I originally gave him Armour of Scorn as well but transferred that over to a winged Daemon Prince so that I wasn't relying to much on the BT, as well as to spread out my anti-psyker abilities beyond just my Flesh Hounds.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 00:39:25


Post by: blackmage


armor of scorn is pretty better on Bt, Dp cant be targeted easily and when he gets into melee with a skullreaver he wreak havoc, so better armor on BT and skullreaver on Dp


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 01:19:17


Post by: operkoi


Question regarding summoning? The new FAQ abolished turn 1 reinforcements and thus removed the deployment zone limitation. Does this mean we can summon turn 1 and ignore the deployment zone limitations that previously existed thereby dropping a horror bomb, virus bomb, or letter bomb near midfield turn 1?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 01:38:59


Post by: spaceclown


operkoi wrote:
Question regarding summoning? The new FAQ abolished turn 1 reinforcements and thus removed the deployment zone limitation. Does this mean we can summon turn 1 and ignore the deployment zone limitations that previously existed thereby dropping a horror bomb, virus bomb, or letter bomb near midfield turn 1?


Which FAQ?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 01:40:59


Post by: labmouse42


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Wow, that's impressive. Even with the new rules changes, would it be possible for me to use my Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury to such an effective extent? Right now he's my warlord and has the Oblivious To Pain trait. I originally gave him Armour of Scorn as well but transferred that over to a winged Daemon Prince so that I wasn't relying to much on the BT, as well as to spread out my anti-psyker abilities beyond just my Flesh Hounds.
I want to be clear. The BT is not an auto-win. It is, however, a very good unit. I found that it was very useful for delivering a good threat on the board. The ork player, after the BT wiped his squad of boys, did not want to teleport any boys near it. That let me control that side of the board.
In another game, it ripped a knight open by itself.

These are just my experiences. Yours might be completely different.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 01:46:24


Post by: whembly


My BT just dies in round 1 or 2.

He never gets to be effect at full strength.... so I caution bringing that model back. At current rules, I still think he's overpriced. Bel'akor is a much better unit has he can "hide" because of character rules.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 02:28:38


Post by: operkoi


spaceclown wrote:
operkoi wrote:
Question regarding summoning? The new FAQ abolished turn 1 reinforcements and thus removed the deployment zone limitation. Does this mean we can summon turn 1 and ignore the deployment zone limitations that previously existed thereby dropping a horror bomb, virus bomb, or letter bomb near midfield turn 1?


Which FAQ?


Honestly not sure if the term is FAQ or chapter approved but the recent big overhaul

FAQ /CA 1 said deepstrike/reinforcement turn 1 are limited to deployment zone. FAQ/CA 2 says that the deployment rule is no longer applicable and instead units set aside as reinforcements must come in turn 2 or later. Seeing as summoned daemons are explicitly not set aside beforehand does this let them bypass the turn 1 block in the newer material.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 02:40:35


Post by: Slagmar


 labmouse42 wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Wow, that's impressive. Even with the new rules changes, would it be possible for me to use my Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury to such an effective extent? Right now he's my warlord and has the Oblivious To Pain trait. I originally gave him Armour of Scorn as well but transferred that over to a winged Daemon Prince so that I wasn't relying to much on the BT, as well as to spread out my anti-psyker abilities beyond just my Flesh Hounds.
I want to be clear. The BT is not an auto-win. It is, however, a very good unit. I found that it was very useful for delivering a good threat on the board. The ork player, after the BT wiped his squad of boys, did not want to teleport any boys near it. That let me control that side of the board.
In another game, it ripped a knight open by itself.

These are just my experiences. Yours might be completely different.


The last few times I've used mine I deep struck him in to keep him from being shot to pieces turn 1. Every time he failed his charge (with a reroll) and then proceeded to get shot off the board. He looks great in my display cabinet though.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 06:56:56


Post by: p5freak


The big FAQ 2 changed the tactical reserves rule.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.


A summoned unit is not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. Its a new unit created when summoning, thus its not affected by the tactical reserves rule.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 07:00:19


Post by: operkoi


 p5freak wrote:
The big FAQ 2 changed the tactical reserves rule.

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at
least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, and the combined points value of all the units you set up on the
battlefield during Deployment (including those that are embarked within Transports that are set up on the battlefield) must be at least half of your
army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.

Finally, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round in a matched play game counts as having been destroyed.


A summoned unit is not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game. Its a new unit created when summoning, thus its not affected by the tactical reserves rule.


Thanks. for the clarification. I was confused with the blurb in the codex that states Summoned units arriving are treated as reinforcements. I was thinking that under that rule you cannot summon until turn 2 at the earliest RAW


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 07:07:35


Post by: p5freak


Yes, they are treated as reinforcements, but they arent deployed during deployment.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/23 07:13:07


Post by: operkoi


 p5freak wrote:
Yes, they are treated as reinforcements, but they arent deployed during deployment.


By that logic treated as reinforcements would that mean you can't summon turn 1 at all? Excuse my dyslexia but the way these rules are worded really confuses me.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/24 06:37:51


Post by: p5freak


operkoi wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Yes, they are treated as reinforcements, but they arent deployed during deployment.


By that logic treated as reinforcements would that mean you can't summon turn 1 at all? Excuse my dyslexia but the way these rules are worded really confuses me.


Welcome to the world of GW rules


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/24 08:40:39


Post by: slave.entity


The daemons codex has got to be one of the worst books GW has released in 8th. Not talking about competitive strength necessarily, but in terms of clarity and editing. It's full of ambiguities, inconsistencies, and strange rules exceptions that are only sometimes addressed by the FAQs.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/24 09:49:38


Post by: BoomWolf


Is day csm is possibly worse.

It was one of the first, but it introduced psyker squads (the unlike daemons can peril) without any explanation how perils works with them, and it was never faqed


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/25 16:50:14


Post by: Elric Greywolf


Played in a RTT this weekend, and my roughest matchup was against GSC. (I stomped the triple-Shadowsword list, and slogged through a guard brigade and won).

If there were a single mistake I should have played differently, it would be giving Warp Surge to my Khorne Prince who charged a Patriarch. Ahriman charged a second Patriarch. Ahriman (with 3++) managed to kill his target (flat 3 is pretty good); but the other one interrupted and did exactly 8 wounds to Khorne. If I had Surge up, it would've done only 2-5 wounds. (I rolled a 1, a 2, and two 4s for my invulns)

Any other tips and tricks for playing against GSC?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/25 19:46:42


Post by: operkoi


 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Played in a RTT this weekend, and my roughest matchup was against GSC. (I stomped the triple-Shadowsword list, and slogged through a guard brigade and won).

If there were a single mistake I should have played differently, it would be giving Warp Surge to my Khorne Prince who charged a Patriarch. Ahriman charged a second Patriarch. Ahriman (with 3++) managed to kill his target (flat 3 is pretty good); but the other one interrupted and did exactly 8 wounds to Khorne. If I had Surge up, it would've done only 2-5 wounds. (I rolled a 1, a 2, and two 4s for my invulns)

Any other tips and tricks for playing against GSC?


make characters the prioroity unless they are positioned to use unquestioning loyalty and do not let GSC charge anything that isn't expendable because it will be getting deleted but they cannot take hits themselves.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/26 02:50:41


Post by: ArcaneHorror


In AOS, three Lords of Change and Kairos can unleash Omniscient Oracles. Is there anything similar to this in 40K?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/02/26 03:12:00


Post by: blackmage


no nothing like that in 40k


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/01 07:58:15


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 blackmage wrote:
no nothing like that in 40k


Damn, that's a shame, it's such a cool ability.

On another topic, I've been reading that instead of a Bloodthirster, putting in another Daemon Prince is a better choice. Should I take out my Unfettered Fury and put in a third DP?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/01 10:47:53


Post by: Tazberry


Well.... we don’t know your list so can’t answer and then, if you like the model play with it.

It can be a distraction for the rest of your list and if you already have two DP you should have skullreaver and kings blade, or the Armour instead of the blade.
If it’s not dead yours T2 then have fun smashing things with him.

Personally I love DP and the greater daemons but have not tried a flying circus yet as I cannot seems to build a list I like on the paper yet.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/01 19:13:12


Post by: small_gods


On another topic, I've been reading that instead of a Bloodthirster, putting in another Daemon Prince is a better choice. Should I take out my Unfettered Fury and put in a third DP?


One bloodthirster can be a problem to run because it's the only big target on the board so draws all the fire from a decent gunline and dies turn 1. I find that lots of troops and daemon princes is the best way to run daemons or chaos in general. I run 4 DP in my list.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/01 19:26:03


Post by: blackmage


or you should play some big guys, like renegade Ik or another GD


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/03 19:54:17


Post by: Barnie25


I want to add a BT to my Thousand sons Knights list. What is the best way to use him? It seems very important to be able to reroll charges for the model or not? Would a 9 inch charge with a gaze of fate reroll and potentially a command reroll be enough to get him into combat?

In the list below I have added a full Khorne battalion, but I feel like going a mixed battalion is probably stronger if getting the reroll charges is no that important. How does the list look?


Spoiler:

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Renegade Knights) ++

+ Lord of War +

Renegade Knight: Heavy stubber
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Bloodmaster
. Rules: Daemonic Ritual

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage: Armour of Scorn, Warlord
. Rules: Daemonic Ritual

+ Troops +

Bloodletters: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
. Rules: Daemonic Ritual

Bloodletters: 9x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper
. Rules: Daemonic Ritual

Bloodletters: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
. Rules: Daemonic Ritual

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) ++
Rules: Brotherhood of Sorcerors, Daemonic Ritual, Disciples of Tzeentch

+ HQ +

Ahriman

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Hellforged sword, Wings

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Hellforged sword, Wings

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Tzaangors: Brayhorn, Icon of Flame, 29x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor Blades
. Twistbray: Tzaangor blades

++ Total: [106 PL, 1997pts] ++



Created with BattleScribe


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/03 20:43:15


Post by: drakerocket


That sure is a lot of deep striking melee threat, that's for sure. I actually kind of like that list.

I would actually take 1 unit of 25-30 bloodletters, drop the other two and take 2 nurgling units instead. This will save you enough points to upgrades the bloodmaster into a daemon prince with the relic axe. Bloodletter bombs need some cushion because you'll lose some on overwatch and multiples are a bit of overkill since you also have a tzaangor bomb.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/04 03:37:12


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 small_gods wrote:
On another topic, I've been reading that instead of a Bloodthirster, putting in another Daemon Prince is a better choice. Should I take out my Unfettered Fury and put in a third DP?


One bloodthirster can be a problem to run because it's the only big target on the board so draws all the fire from a decent gunline and dies turn 1. I find that lots of troops and daemon princes is the best way to run daemons or chaos in general. I run 4 DP in my list.


Alright, I might do that, though I do like my UF BT since it doesn't degrade from damage and is pretty brutal in melee. I could put in a third non-winged DP in my army which would free up 94 points. Those could either go for thirteen more Bloodletters, five Bloodletters and a third Skull Cannon, or a Skullmaster. Or I could simply replace the BT with Be'lakor, who has some unique DP abilities of his own.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/05 16:10:05


Post by: ArcaneHorror


Ok, here is the organization for my Khorne mono army (minus Be'lakor):

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Artefact – Armour of Scorn)
Skulltaker [HQ]
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
4 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 12 Bloodletters

Be’lakor Battalion:
Be’lakor [HQ]
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ]
3 x 10 Bloodletters

Spearhead:
Blood Throne [HQ]
Skull Cannon (2) [Heavy Support]
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support]

Patrol:
Karanak [HQ]
Flesh Hounds (5) [Fast Attack]
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Total points: 1995
Command points: 7

I'm aware that this is not the best army organization, and I'm thinking of replacing Be'lakor with a regular DP and then using some more Bloodletters to guard my artillery (either 20 or 24 based on whether I take a DP with or without wings). Then there's my Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury which I removed since it tends to be a magnet for enemy fire, but it's pretty powerful and has some unique abilities. So I do have room for shifting certain models in and out the list. Any advice?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/05 18:50:08


Post by: Elric Greywolf


One of the most powerful ways to run Bloodletters is the Letter Bomb, a unit of 25-30 with the Banner of Blood upgrade.

It costs 3CP to upgrade the icon and stick it into the warp, but it will kill ANYTHING it touches, and putting in deep strike instead of slogging across the field mitigates casualties. You want 20+ for the additional weapon skill, and you want 25+ so that you can lose a few bodies in OW and still get that bonus.

There's also no reason to take a Patrol, that I can see. Put Karanak into the battalion, drop Belakor for another Prince (or even a Skullmaster), and stack those extra BLs into your new Letter Bomb.

Also, 5 khorne dogs are going to be very disappointing.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/05 19:16:09


Post by: Barnie25


Which of the Bloodthirsters is best to run? The Rage version does the most damage and gets most out of the fighting twice strategem but has little to no staying power once he is damaged.

Fury version is the most all round and the wrath version has the best ranged damage.

I want to run one in my thousand sons daemon list but am looking for a decision on which one is generally favored.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/05 19:29:09


Post by: Elric Greywolf


 Barnie25 wrote:
Which of the Bloodthirsters is best to run? The Rage version does the most damage and gets most out of the fighting twice strategem but has little to no staying power once he is damaged.

Fury version is the most all round and the wrath version has the best ranged damage.

I want to run one in my thousand sons daemon list but am looking for a decision on which one is generally favored.


You don't take Bloodthirsters for their ranged ability. Skull Cannons, Horrors, Obliterators...there are lots of other, MUCH better ranged options to choose from.
If you take a pure Khorne detachment (for the reroll charge) and put him in DS, Rage will most likely get to his target (you can even Warp Surge if you're leery of the overwatch). Just be sure you have a way to clear the chaff before dropping him in!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/05 19:38:18


Post by: Barnie25


 Elric Greywolf wrote:
 Barnie25 wrote:
Which of the Bloodthirsters is best to run? The Rage version does the most damage and gets most out of the fighting twice strategem but has little to no staying power once he is damaged.

Fury version is the most all round and the wrath version has the best ranged damage.

I want to run one in my thousand sons daemon list but am looking for a decision on which one is generally favored.


You don't take Bloodthirsters for their ranged ability. Skull Cannons, Horrors, Obliterators...there are lots of other, MUCH better ranged options to choose from.
If you take a pure Khorne detachment (for the reroll charge) and put him in DS, Rage will most likely get to his target (you can even Warp Surge if you're leery of the overwatch). Just be sure you have a way to clear the chaff before dropping him in!



The single ranged model in my army will probably be a Renegade Knight with 2 avenger gatling cannons. I am doubting between the fury and the rage version, turn one the Tzaangor bomb will drop and disrupt the backline so that on turn 2 hopefully somewhere a better charge is possible. I believe that when using the free reroll the Thousand sons spell Gaze of Fate provides, on top of the command reroll, the odds of making the 9 inch charge are better when rerolling either dice independent of each other as supposed to rerolling both dice at the same time.

260 points ofcourse is a lot for a lightning rod, but then again, all attention that the bloodthirster attracts means that my knight will live longer. The fury version seems rather bad for clearing chaff, so maybe a more balls to the wall version is best in the end.

Is it hard to magnetize the model to be able to make both?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/05 20:52:17


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 Elric Greywolf wrote:
One of the most powerful ways to run Bloodletters is the Letter Bomb, a unit of 25-30 with the Banner of Blood upgrade.

It costs 3CP to upgrade the icon and stick it into the warp, but it will kill ANYTHING it touches, and putting in deep strike instead of slogging across the field mitigates casualties. You want 20+ for the additional weapon skill, and you want 25+ so that you can lose a few bodies in OW and still get that bonus.

There's also no reason to take a Patrol, that I can see. Put Karanak into the battalion, drop Belakor for another Prince (or even a Skullmaster), and stack those extra BLs into your new Letter Bomb.

Also, 5 khorne dogs are going to be very disappointing.


Ok, thanks. Here is my new list. Do you think putting the 10 BL in the Spearhead is a good idea? I was thinking of using them as a shield, but I'm not sure how effective it might be and they might be better used elsewhere.

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Artefact – Armour of Scorn)
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
1 x 30 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood)
1 x 10 Bloodletters

First Daemon Prince Battalion:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ]
Karanak [HQ]
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 12 Bloodletters

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ]
1 x 13 Bloodletters (with Daemonic instrument)
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Spearhead:
Blood Throne [HQ]
Skull Cannon (2) [Heavy Support]
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support]
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Total points: 1997
Command points: 10


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, here is yet another updated list. I didn't put in the three battle forged cp's before and didn't know that I could only have 3 detachments for a 2000 point game. I'm thinking of giving my Soul Grinder a mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle to make it harder to kill, and I think I'll give my winged DP the Skull Reaver artefact, though I'm not yet sure.

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Artefact – Armour of Scorn)
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support]
1 x 30 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood)
1 x 10 Bloodletters

First Daemon Prince Battalion:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ]
Karanak [HQ]
Blood Throne [HQ]
Skull Cannon [Heavy Support]
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 12 Bloodletters

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ]
Skull Cannon [Heavy Support]
1 x 23 Bloodletters (with Daemonic instrument)
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Total points: 1997
Command points: 18


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/06 00:05:12


Post by: Elric Greywolf


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Spoiler:
 Elric Greywolf wrote:
One of the most powerful ways to run Bloodletters is the Letter Bomb, a unit of 25-30 with the Banner of Blood upgrade.

It costs 3CP to upgrade the icon and stick it into the warp, but it will kill ANYTHING it touches, and putting in deep strike instead of slogging across the field mitigates casualties. You want 20+ for the additional weapon skill, and you want 25+ so that you can lose a few bodies in OW and still get that bonus.

There's also no reason to take a Patrol, that I can see. Put Karanak into the battalion, drop Belakor for another Prince (or even a Skullmaster), and stack those extra BLs into your new Letter Bomb.

Also, 5 khorne dogs are going to be very disappointing.


Ok, thanks. Here is my new list. Do you think putting the 10 BL in the Spearhead is a good idea? I was thinking of using them as a shield, but I'm not sure how effective it might be and they might be better used elsewhere.

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Artefact – Armour of Scorn)
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
1 x 30 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood)
1 x 10 Bloodletters

First Daemon Prince Battalion:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ]
Karanak [HQ]
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 12 Bloodletters

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ]
1 x 13 Bloodletters (with Daemonic instrument)
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Spearhead:
Blood Throne [HQ]
Skull Cannon (2) [Heavy Support]
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support]
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Total points: 1997
Command points: 10


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, here is yet another updated list. I didn't put in the three battle forged cp's before and didn't know that I could only have 3 detachments for a 2000 point game. I'm thinking of giving my Soul Grinder a mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle to make it harder to kill, and I think I'll give my winged DP the Skull Reaver artefact, though I'm not yet sure.

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Artefact – Armour of Scorn)
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support]
1 x 30 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood)
1 x 10 Bloodletters

First Daemon Prince Battalion:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ]
Karanak [HQ]
Blood Throne [HQ]
Skull Cannon [Heavy Support]
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 12 Bloodletters

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ]
Skull Cannon [Heavy Support]
1 x 23 Bloodletters (with Daemonic instrument)
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Total points: 1997
Command points: 18

You might want to take this to Army Lists. There are some good people over there, and spamming lists isn't exactly the point of the tactical thread....


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/06 00:08:00


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 Elric Greywolf wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Spoiler:
 Elric Greywolf wrote:
One of the most powerful ways to run Bloodletters is the Letter Bomb, a unit of 25-30 with the Banner of Blood upgrade.

It costs 3CP to upgrade the icon and stick it into the warp, but it will kill ANYTHING it touches, and putting in deep strike instead of slogging across the field mitigates casualties. You want 20+ for the additional weapon skill, and you want 25+ so that you can lose a few bodies in OW and still get that bonus.

There's also no reason to take a Patrol, that I can see. Put Karanak into the battalion, drop Belakor for another Prince (or even a Skullmaster), and stack those extra BLs into your new Letter Bomb.

Also, 5 khorne dogs are going to be very disappointing.


Ok, thanks. Here is my new list. Do you think putting the 10 BL in the Spearhead is a good idea? I was thinking of using them as a shield, but I'm not sure how effective it might be and they might be better used elsewhere.

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Artefact – Armour of Scorn)
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
1 x 30 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood)
1 x 10 Bloodletters

First Daemon Prince Battalion:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ]
Karanak [HQ]
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 12 Bloodletters

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ]
1 x 13 Bloodletters (with Daemonic instrument)
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Spearhead:
Blood Throne [HQ]
Skull Cannon (2) [Heavy Support]
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support]
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Total points: 1997
Command points: 10


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, here is yet another updated list. I didn't put in the three battle forged cp's before and didn't know that I could only have 3 detachments for a 2000 point game. I'm thinking of giving my Soul Grinder a mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle to make it harder to kill, and I think I'll give my winged DP the Skull Reaver artefact, though I'm not yet sure.

Warlord Battalion:
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ] [Warlord] (Trait: Oblivious to Pain) (Artefact – Armour of Scorn)
Herald (Bloodmaster) [HQ]
Soul Grinder [Heavy Support]
1 x 30 Bloodletters (with Banner of Blood)
1 x 10 Bloodletters

First Daemon Prince Battalion:
Daemon Prince with Wings, Daemonic axe, and one set of talons [HQ]
Karanak [HQ]
Blood Throne [HQ]
Skull Cannon [Heavy Support]
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 12 Bloodletters

Skulltaker Battalion:
Skulltaker [HQ]
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Malefic talons [HQ]
Skull Cannon [Heavy Support]
1 x 23 Bloodletters (with Daemonic instrument)
1 x 10 Bloodletters
1 x 10 Bloodletters

Total points: 1997
Command points: 18

You might want to take this to Army Lists. There are some good people over there, and spamming lists isn't exactly the point of the tactical thread....

Oh ok, sorry about that. I've never to that section before so I didn't know that was the place to discuss lists.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/06 17:39:35


Post by: gruyere


Hey guys,

I was wondering if anyone could help me in preparing a 1250 pt Tournament list. My current idea is here, but I am willing to change. I'd be doing ITC simplified missions. I have a worry that my list is too thin, especially with Mortarion. Plus I know mortarion really benefits from getting into a heretic astartes strat to get access to Warptime. I was wondering what I should change if I were to change this list. Should I run mortarion at all? Should I run something else instead?

Thanks for any help

LoW
Mortarion

Daemons Battalion
HQ
Khorne Daemon Prince w/ Wings and Skullreaver
Poxbringer
Sloppity Bilepiper

Troops
25x Bloodletter w/ Icon
3x Nurglings
30x Plaguebearers w/ Icon


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/06 17:52:00


Post by: Sokhar


Your list is going to ride or die with Mortarion--if the enemy list can kill him in one or two turns they win, if they can't, you probably win. I'd prefer Magnus if you had him over Morty, as he's better able to support himself through his psychic abilities, though Mortarion has increased durability. Only tweak I'd really look at is dropping the Bilepiper, as he's a waste of points when he's only buffing a single unit. Another unit of Nurglings for some added scoring presence, and ability to screen your Khorne Prince would probably be much more valuable.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/06 17:57:16


Post by: gruyere


Sokhar wrote:
Your list is going to ride or die with Mortarion--if the enemy list can kill him in one or two turns they win, if they can't, you probably win. I'd prefer Magnus if you had him over Morty, as he's better able to support himself through his psychic abilities, though Mortarion has increased durability. Only tweak I'd really look at is dropping the Bilepiper, as he's a waste of points when he's only buffing a single unit. Another unit of Nurglings for some added scoring presence, and ability to screen your Khorne Prince would probably be much more valuable.


Sweet, thanks man. I may look into getting magnus then, since the model is amazing. Def gonna swap the Nurglings in. I was considering a 20 unit of daemonettes over the sloppity and one band of nurglings, but I think the nurglings are better actually.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/06 22:37:20


Post by: blackmage


kill Mortarion at 1250pts isn't that easy and anyway you have bloodletters and Korne Dp so no you dont rely on Mortarion only to win, they can kill it (maybe) every game and you can still win. I just would take out sloppity for 3 extra nurglings, give instrumenst to letters.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/06 23:52:37


Post by: gruyere


 blackmage wrote:
kill Mortarion at 1250pts isn't that easy and anyway you have bloodletters and Korne Dp so no you dont rely on Mortarion only to win, they can kill it (maybe) every game and you can still win. I just would take out sloppity for 3 extra nurglings, give instrumenst to letters.


Do you think a supreme command w/ ahriman and 2 Tzeentch DPs would be better over mortarion? Or just stick with mortarion. And yeah, def gonna swap in those extra nurglings over the piper


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/07 00:47:10


Post by: blackmage


that supreme command is extra strong i played for long in ETC, can be a nice swap, anyway at 1250 Mortarion can be a real beast, skullreaver Dp too. If you want more solidity and be less "dice dependent" , play the supreme command. handle 3 Dp's and tons of pyschic power at 1250 can be frustrating for many armies, if used properly korne Dp can be more lethal than Mortarion


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/07 05:30:49


Post by: the_Jakman


Hey my dudes, I'm considering adding a small Daemon battalion to my CSM list and was hoping for some advice and rules clarifications as I'm not up to date on the FAQs.
My main Alpha Legion force focuses on a large squad of Noise Boys infiltrating, Obliterators, and a battalion of R&H militia chumps. Any advice on how to better achieve a decent bloodletter bomb, or which HQ to take would be welcome. I'm thinking of adding the following, trying to make is as cheap as possible whilst still having a large bloodletter squad. The nurglings are there to primarily qualify as a battalion for CP, to lock down my intended location for my infiltrating Noise Marines, and to screen them from CC.

Daemon Battalion
Bloodmaster
Skulltaker
30x Bloodletters w/ Horn, Banner
2x3 Nurglings
483pts

My questions are,
Is the stratagem for summoning daemons for CP cost still a thing and can it be used to summon HQ? Ill have plenty of CP to spare.
Do the Loci from Skulltaker and Bloodmaster stack?
I've seen people talking about giving bloodletters a 3d6 charge, where does this come from? I can't seem to find it in the Codex or on Battlescribe.
Cheers for the help.

EDIT: Found the banner of Blood.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/07 06:20:38


Post by: operkoi


the_Jakman wrote:
Hey my dudes, I'm considering adding a small Daemon battalion to my CSM list and was hoping for some advice and rules clarifications as I'm not up to date on the FAQs.
My main Alpha Legion force focuses on a large squad of Noise Boys infiltrating, Obliterators, and a battalion of R&H militia chumps. Any advice on how to better achieve a decent bloodletter bomb, or which HQ to take would be welcome. I'm thinking of adding the following, trying to make is as cheap as possible whilst still having a large bloodletter squad. The nurglings are there to primarily qualify as a battalion for CP, to lock down my intended location for my infiltrating Noise Marines, and to screen them from CC.

Daemon Battalion
Bloodmaster
Skulltaker
30x Bloodletters w/ Horn, Banner
2x3 Nurglings
483pts

My questions are,
Is the stratagem for summoning daemons for CP cost still a thing and can it be used to summon HQ? Ill have plenty of CP to spare.
Do the Loci from Skulltaker and Bloodmaster stack?
I've seen people talking about giving bloodletters a 3d6 charge, where does this come from? I can't seem to find it in the Codex or on Battlescribe.
Cheers for the help.


The way summoning works is instead of moving a character you roll 3 dice and you can summon any unit (even hqs and LOW as long as they can be summoned) that has the same god keyword as the character (or any god if the character is undivided/not affiliated with a single god) and has a PL equal or lower then the result. I.e Kharn the betrayer can only summon khorne daemons, Ahriman tzeentch daemons but an undivided character like a Black legion Lord can summon any daemon. If you roll doubles on the summon dice the summoner takes a MW and if you roll triples the caster takes D3 MW. The summoning stratagem just lets you use an extra dice for 4 total and give the summoned units rerolls of 1 if they stay within 3 inches of the caster in exchange for automatically applying the d3 wounds to the summoner regardless of the rolls. You still need to have points set aside for summoning in matched play though. There is a deepstrike strategem called Denizens of the Warp that is for all intensive purposes identical to tellyporta or webway gate for eldar and orks (1cp for a unit 1-8 PL, 2 for 9 or more PL). Though with the last chapter approved some aspects of summoning are in a confusing state right now.(particularly turn 1)

Daemon locuses are additional auras produced by a detachments hqs that only work if you have mono god detachments (i.e pure khorne or pure nurgle) but the basic HQ aura abilities do stack as long as they are applicable so skulltaker and a bloodmasters auras would stack and give their bonuses to a khorne daemon unit (even CSM daemon engines) within range.

The 3d6 charge comes from a stratagem banner you attach to the unit as an upgrade somewhat like ork 'ardboyz. The usual bloodletter bomb is putting the bloodletters in deepstrike with the strategem and giving them the relic banner.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/07 07:02:10


Post by: ArcaneHorror


After looking over some info about them, I'm thinking of switching out my Soul Grinder for a Skull Cannon. Is this a wise choice? If I did that, I would have points that I would use for a second Bloodmaster, another icon, two more Bloodletters. Another option would be to have a Defiler, a second icon, another Bloodmaster, and one Bloodletter. Which of these options looks the best?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/07 20:19:33


Post by: labmouse42


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm thinking of switching out my Soul Grinder for a Skull Cannon.
They fill very separate roles. A skull cannon is mostly ranged, with a little melee capacity. The Soul Grinder has a good deal of melee capacity with a bit less ranged damage.

Ranged Damage
The Grinder will be getting ~6.5 shots per turn, The phlem also does 3 damage flat, where the Cannon only does d3 damage.
The Cannon only had ~3.5 shots, per turn but will usually be standing still so it's hitting on a 3+.
If your Grinder is moving, it will have about 70% the ranged damage capacity as the cannon. If it stands still, it will have slightly higher damage output.

Melee Damage
The Grinder wins, hands down, in this capacity. The grinder can swing 10 times at STR 8, -2 AP, for d3 damage per hit. It can instead swing 5 times hitting for STR 16 at d6 damage.
The Cannon has a few decent swings in assault, and can charge to do a few extra mortal wounds. It does more damage than an imperial vehicle, but it's not on the same scale.

Durability
The Grinder has twice as many wounds. If you take the grinder as Nurgle (and you should) the grinder has the equivalent of 18.2 wounds. That's as much as 2.5 Cannons.
The Cannon never degrades, which is nice.

Cost
The Cannon costs half as many points as the Grinder. That's where it wins out. You can bring 2 Cannons for 1 Grinder, which means if you are looking for decent cheap ranged damage, the cannon is a good option.

My review on Grinders
I’ve been playing with them a good deal since they dropped to 180. The best with to run them IMHO is Nurgle. DR means that you are saving 55% of the wounds done to you — compared to the 50% you save as Tzeentch.

The DR effects all wounds (even mortal), which means that you have a chance to resist mortal wounds. Nurgle grinders also get to use DR when they are rolling their 3+ save, which comes up quite often. In one game I had my nurgle grinders tie up a squad of 30 boys for 3 game turns.

Grinders fill one of two roles. They either camp out on an objective, or move forward to engage and cause problems.

If they are camping, they do a good job for deterring, as few things want to get close to the objective with a grinder on it. The problem is that a troops choice that assults a grinder camping on an object will take the objective from the grinder. This has happened to me on more than one occasion, so you need to ensure you have other support units near by to stop the deep striking troops.

The other use for the grinders is to rush forward to cause mayhem. Their weapon skill never degrades. This means that until they hit the last profile, they can still do some decent damage in assault. I usually wind up using the warp claw, as you get 2 ‘to hit’ rolls for every attack. 10 attacks helps to mitigate the 4+ WS. As each of those swings are STR 8 (9 if for some reason you have a herald nearby) -2 ap, and D3 damage, they do quite a bit of work.

Statically, the iron claw is better against vehicles. It’s not by a lot, but that’s what you want to use against targets with 3+ wounds.

The shooting is OK from the grinders. I’ve done some damage with the phlegm bombardment. Being a heavy d6 gun, it’s pretty random in it’s effect. I’ve had it hit 4 times, and I’ve had it only shoot once. You should have seen my opponents face when he assaulted my grinder with a marine smash captain only to have him die to phlem overwatch.

The harvester cannon is a bit more reliable in shots, but it’s not the greatest weapon. I’ve had it pluck off a few wounds from time to time.

What really makes the grinders shine is their durability. 14 wounds with DR means they have effectively 18.2 wounds! To add insult to injury, you can heal them with Revolting Regeneration and Fleshy Abundance. This can be a great way to bring a grinder up from the lowest profile.

As mentioned, I’ve had them take enormous amounts of firepower before cracking. I had one absorb 75 loota shots and live with 1 wound left (I was slightly lucky there, but not abnormally so)

Overall, I think at 180 points, they are good units. Not great units. Not overpowers units (especially given the number of anti-knight weapons out in the meta today) but good units. For my nurgle army, they give some needed extra punch.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/08 01:37:33


Post by: VoidSempai


 p5freak wrote:
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Such a lame change.


Yea, its lame that 30 pinkies cant get a 3+ inv anymore, for 1 CP


except they still can! XD
They roll a D6+1 on their save, and with the stratagem they need a 4+.
Guess what
that
amount
to?

Fun fact : GW has no idea how to play their own game!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/08 01:48:37


Post by: operkoi


VoidSempai wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Such a lame change.


Yea, its lame that 30 pinkies cant get a 3+ inv anymore, for 1 CP


except they still can! XD
They roll a D6+1 on their save, and with the stratagem they need a 4+.
Guess what
that
amount
to?

Fun fact : GW has no idea how to play their own game!


Horrors dont have the +1 save rule other tzeentch daemons have. The wording explicitly states pinks have a 4++ (invalidating warp surge), Blues a 5++, and brims a 6++ so you can't warp surge pinks. The closest they get is their extremely situational locus. The real atrocity is how much longer in comparison it is taking GW to apply an identical nerf to a faction that is abusing high invulnerable saves far worse then daemons have since the days of 4++ brimstones (Knights and Rotate ion shield).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/08 14:33:48


Post by: blackmage


pink horrors cant get 3++ save just 4++ they dont have +1 save on dice, maybe now with cursed earth something can change


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/09 13:47:21


Post by: lindsay40k


 blackmage wrote:
pink horrors cant get 3++ save just 4++ they dont have +1 save on dice, maybe now with cursed earth something can change


That aura only applies to Daemon Astartes of the same Legion


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/09 22:59:31


Post by: blackmage


oh then i misread ty


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/10 04:35:27


Post by: Heafstaag


I am really liking having Slaanesh daemons allied in with my Emperor's children. The soul grinder and keeper of secrets have been spectacular in my games with them. The slaanesh warlord traits, spells, and their few strategems are all really good.

What are everyone's thoughts on the keeper of secrets?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/10 12:55:35


Post by: lindsay40k


Heafstaag wrote:
I am really liking having Slaanesh daemons allied in with my Emperor's children. The soul grinder and keeper of secrets have been spectacular in my games with them. The slaanesh warlord traits, spells, and their few strategems are all really good.

What are everyone's thoughts on the keeper of secrets?


It’s not bad now it’s had a price cut. With the right opponent and right deployment, Celerity and Fiends can put it in a terrific position on turn one. IME it’s not especially likely to survive turn one, buuuut it’s cheap enough now that it’s not the end of the world.

Main problem is that the Slaanesh locus - advance and charge - is something that you can build a list around, and it being targetable means you can’t rely on it to get your Maulers and Daemonettes and DP and Possessed running full tilt. So, I generally bring a herald on Steed as well. Not sure how she’ll do when all these new Sniper marines start appearing...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/10 17:38:56


Post by: labmouse42


Heafstaag wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on the keeper of secrets?
I've not played one -- mostly because I don't own one of those models. They are in dire need of a update in models. My buddy plays one on a regular basis. These are some of the thoughts he has given me.

Squishy
All slaanesh units suffer from one weakness -- bullets. T7, 12 wounds and a 5++ just does not last that long. A squad of 10 Intercessors will do (2/3 to hit * 1/3 to wound * 2/3 failed save * 20 shots) = ~ 3 wounds on the target. If they are deathwatch using poisoned ammo, that jumps to ~7 wounds.
Unlike other greater deamons, they only have 12 wounds. This will probably change when they get a model update, but for now their model is extremely tiny. This means you can hide it more easily. Against people who are not familiar with them, they might not be targeted if people don't know their threat.

Fast
At full profile, they are moving 12" plus advance and then they charge after advancing. That's a solid threat range of 22.5". This means that most units will have generally one round to shoot at a keeper before it gets stuck in. This makes them as fast as a DP with wings (though they cannot ignore terrain like FLYing creatures can)

Hard Hitting
At full profile, they are STR 7, 6 attacks, AP-3, 3 damage with another D3 attacks on top of that. This averages 8 attacks. This great against specific targets, like dreads -- but falls short against other targets like orks just because the 3 damage and -3 AP is wasted.
As an added bonus, enemy attackers are -1 to hit in assault.

Psykers
A KoS can cast 2 powers a turn and deny once a turn. Some of these powers are pretty cool -- like Hysterical Frenzy and Symphony of Pain. Sadly, Hysterical Frenzy is harder to get off than you might think. Since the psychic phase comes before the assault phase, your KoS will not be within 1" of an enemy unit to use. Your opponent is likely to fall back out of range during the movement phase, preventing you from using it during the psychic phase. You can get around this with units like Fiends, but it's it's not something you have to line up.
Even if you are just using smite and another psychic power to do mortal wounds, you can expect to deliver ~4 mortal wounds a psychic phase, which is pretty solid. There is a point of diminishing returns on this, as smite gets harder to cast and you can only use each slaanesh damage power once per phase....

Warlord
Personally I would not suggest taking the KoS as a warlord. With only 12 wounds, they are easy to kill if your opponent wants to. If you wanted to play pure Slaanesh, take a DP as they are under 10 wounds. If you did want to take one, there are a few decent options. Fatal Caress will give you ~1 more mortal wound of damage a round. Murderdance will give you ~10 attacks per on the round you assault. Celerity of Slaanesh bumps the intial movement to 15". They are all good -- but nothing really stands out as 'great'.

Relics
Soulstealer can be really nice as it let's the KoS heal wounds as it's delivering damage. You can easily heal 4 wounds per fight phase, making your KoS stick around longer. The Mark of Excess could be useful under the right circumstances. Overall though, they are somewhat lackluster compared to the Armor of Scorn or the Impossible Robe.

Greater Daemon
If you are going to run with a carpet of daemonettes, which at 6 PPM is not completely unreasonable -- then these guys increase the LD to a 10. This means when normally you would pick up models (and you will, as the slaanesh weakness of bullets is discovered often) you are picking up 3 less per unit per morale phase. It's not a big difference -- but will save a few models.

Cost
A KoS comes in at the bargain basement of 160 points.
How good is this? At this point I honestly don't know. I would need to try a few lists with 3 of these, 3 heralds and carpets of daemonettes.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 09:32:04


Post by: Latro_


thinking of digging out my Tzeentch daemons project again. What mono tzeentch army would you guys rock in the current game?

was thinking 2k brigade
prince, x3 fate skimmer , x4 10 brims, x2 30 pinks, 3x exalted flamers, 3x 4 screamers, 3x chariots

lots of shots, lots of high strength shooting, can hold up in combat, plenty of bodies.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 09:41:12


Post by: small_gods


 Latro_ wrote:
thinking of digging out my Tzeentch daemons project again. What mono tzeentch army would you guys rock in the current game?

was thinking 2k brigade
prince, x3 fate skimmer , x4 10 brims, x2 30 pinks, 3x exalted flamers, 3x 4 screamers, 3x chariots

lots of shots, lots of high strength shooting, can hold up in combat, plenty of bodies.


Looks good, would make a couple of tweeks. Swap 1 prince out for changeling, 6+++ would be handy in this sort of deathball.

Use extra points to bring 1x 30 pinks and 2x 20. Deepstrike smaller units for 1 CP save them from being annihilated by serios long range anti infantry turn 1 and still get assault 3 weapons.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 11:27:12


Post by: labmouse42


 Latro_ wrote:
thinking of digging out my Tzeentch daemons project again. What mono tzeentch army would you guys rock in the current game?

was thinking 2k brigade
prince, x3 fate skimmer , x4 10 brims, x2 30 pinks, 3x exalted flamers, 3x 4 screamers, 3x chariots

lots of shots, lots of high strength shooting, can hold up in combat, plenty of bodies.
Why not do 2 battalions instead of 1 brigade?
This keeps you from getting stuck fielding things like flamer chariots -- which are really expensive for what they do.
It also opens up the door to add in some flamers if you want, which are really good for their role of clearing out hordes.
Have you considered adding a LoC? At the new point cost, with the impossible robe, they are decent.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 11:35:57


Post by: Latro_


my local tourney scene only allows one use detachments so just in the habit of building to that.

did think about the LoC they're not that shabby in combat either.

yea the chariots seem a bit of a meh compared to normal exalted flamers but i thought they might be decent for some extra CC punch.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 13:48:02


Post by: Fragmentize


Hey everyone.

Looking at doing mono Khorne Daemons for my next army (because Bloodletters are my fav daemon models )

But I have no idea how they do on Tabletop...

Any suggestions on a 750~1000point army list?

Any guidance would be great!
(I do have a Start collecting box on order, is it a worthwhile place to start?)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 14:21:26


Post by: Elric Greywolf


Fragmentize wrote:
Hey everyone.

Looking at doing mono Khorne Daemons for my next army (because Bloodletters are my fav daemon models )

But I have no idea how they do on Tabletop...

Any suggestions on a 750~1000point army list?

Any guidance would be great!
(I do have a Start collecting box on order, is it a worthwhile place to start?)


A Letter Bomb (25-30 Bloodletters with Icon, Instrument, and Banner of Blood strat, all in Deep Strike) is an extremely powerful option. Combine with the Khorne fight twice strat, and you can easily kill a knight in one turn, or clear out literal dozens of infantry models. It's 235pts+1CP to start, and well worth the cost.
You need 25-30 in order to survive some overwatch and still have the large unit bonus.

Mono Khorne Battalion
Spoiler:
Winged Khorne Prince - 180
Skullmaster - 90

30x Letters, Icon, Instrument - 235
10x Letters - 70
10x Letters - 70

5x Flesh Hounds, Gorehound - 99
5x Flesh Hounds - 75

Skull Cannon - 90
Skull Cannon - 90

=999


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 14:25:37


Post by: small_gods


Fragmentize wrote:
Hey everyone.

Looking at doing mono Khorne Daemons for my next army (because Bloodletters are my fav daemon models )

But I have no idea how they do on Tabletop...

Any suggestions on a 750~1000point army list?

Any guidance would be great!
(I do have a Start collecting box on order, is it a worthwhile place to start?)


Solo Khorne can be tough because you can't really foot slog bloodletters. I'd take as many bloodletters and daemon princes as you can squeeze in.

Give the bloodletters the banner. I generally run in 20s as that saves CP when deepstriking them.

Both relic khorne weapons and the armour if scorn are fantastic. If you can take 2 daemon princes with skullreaver and pay a CP for one extra that would help.

2x 20 bloodletters with banner plus 10 (to fill battalion)
2x Daemon princes with wings is 760 points

If you save your last 3 CP you can let a daemon prince or unit of bloodletters fight twice... which is always nice


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/12 17:19:59


Post by: labmouse42


 Latro_ wrote:
did think about the LoC they're not that shabby in combat either.
Hmmmm...that definitely changes things for you. What are your models limited to? I've had good luck with 180pt soul grinders -- but I'm not going to suggest you go drop $250 on models. The Tzeentch Loci is pretty 'meh'. How committed to running Tzeentch are you? Would you be open to going unaligned?

You could put together something like this...
Spoiler:
- ChangeCaster
- DP with wings/talons
- LoC

- 27 pink horrors
- 26 pink horrors
- 10 brims * 4

- exalted flamer *3

- 3 screamers *2
- 5 furies

- 3 soul grinders


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/13 02:58:37


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


Does anyone think the new Primaris marines ability to nullify drops around them will put an extra emphasis on the speed of Slaanesh? Especially since they’ll inevitably get more stuff/updated this year?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/13 09:46:57


Post by: Latro_


ah furies, thats a sweet way to save pts on a brigade. Surley that list still gives you the loci no? you can just give the furies and soul grinders the tzeentch KW

i take it karios is out of flavour owing to no way to get a 3++

do you go sword or klaw on the soul grinders? not sure which of the three you'd use vs a knight? they all have benifits. Guess iron claw is maths better and worth taking the warp claw if facing hordes

maybe this then?

Spoiler:
2000pts Brigade - 15cp pts
Lord of Change, Baleful Sword, Imp Robe, WL 275
Fate Skimmer, Staff 135
Fate Skimmer, Staff 135
10 Brimstone Horrors 30
10 Brimstone Horrors 30
10 Brimstone Horrors 30
10 Brimstone Horrors 30
30 Pink Horrors 210
30 Pink Horrors 210
Exalted Flamer 70
Exalted Flamer 70
Exalted Flamer 70
7 Furies <Tzeentch> 56
7 Furies <Tzeentch> 56
6 Furies <Tzeentch> 48
Soul Grinder, Warp Claw <Tzeentch> 180
Soul Grinder, Warp Claw <Tzeentch> 180
Soul Grinder, Warp Claw <Tzeentch> 180


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/13 11:23:05


Post by: labmouse42


 Latro_ wrote:
ah furies, thats a sweet way to save pts on a brigade. Surley that list still gives you the loci no? you can just give the furies and soul grinders the tzeentch KW
Yes, you do. You can give those marks to grinders and furies.

 Latro_ wrote:
i take it karios is out of flavour owing to no way to get a 3++
Yes. The Impossible Robe is why the LoC is the better choice. Edit : You can use Warp Surge to get Fatey down to a 3++ every round. That will chew up 12 CP over the course of a game if you have to pop it every turn (which you wont). Fatey hits a bit harder in assault at high profiles. His psychic powers are better. If you have the CP to burn (which you do) fatey is not a bad choice.
It also depends on your point of diminishing returns with psykers. Each Tzeentch power can be cast 1ce per turn. You have 6 powers plus a diminishing smite. Fatey casts 3 times, your hearlds cast 2 times for 5 casts per turn. In that list you should be fine. If you had 8 casts per turn, then you are hitting saturation, as you won't be able to get all your powers off. In those cases you need to split to a different school (nurgle, etc) to allow you to get more casts.

 Latro_ wrote:
do you go sword or klaw on the soul grinders?
I got with the klaw, as it gives you 10 attacks vs hordes. Mathwise, it's better to use it vs anything T7 or less.

 Latro_ wrote:
not sure which of the three you'd use vs a knight? they all have benifits. Guess iron claw is maths better and worth taking the warp claw if facing hordes
Well, basically anything T7 or less.

Fate Skimmer : I was about to say something along the lines of 'you are likely better off just grabbing a fluxmaster'. Given that snipers are going to rapidly become more abundant (with assassins, GSC, and Primaris scouts) that 8 wound herald may be the way to roll. It also gives you an 11 point discount over buying 2 screamers. Why are you not grabbing the horrors on them for 5 points?

Otherwise it seems like a pretty decent list. Not a 'great' list, but that's because you are limited by what you can bring by only taking one brigade. What kind of missions do you plan on playing with it? Malestrom? ITC? ETC?

This is my current list that I'm running.
Spoiler:
Nurgle Battalion
- DP w/wings
- Sloppity Bilepiper
- 3 Nurglings
- 30 Plaguebearers w/Icon + Instrument
- 30 Plaguebearers w/Icon + Instrument
- Soul Grinder
- Soul Grinder

Tzeentch Vanguard Detachment
- 1k sons DP of Tzeentch
- 10 Scarab Occult Terminators w/2 hellfire racks
- 6 Flamers
- 6 Flamers
I'm using my plaguebearers in a similar way you are using your horrors -- board control. My grinders and DPs are my punching. Nurglings are deployed to block things like teleporting orks. The flamers are held in reserver for 1 CP each then dropped to take down enemy weak points (6d6 hits is no joke). The SOT also are held in reserve to drop down into a good firing postion to take advantage of bolter discipline. 40 hellfire bolt rounds and 4 missiles is no joke. This is an ITC list, designed to limit kills against me, grab a kill every turn, and to hold objectives.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/13 15:33:15


Post by: DrGiggles


Can't find a post talking about it but how usable are the Khorne units found in Wrath and Rapture? I'm thinking about picking it up and using it with my World Eaters.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 00:15:32


Post by: Latro_


Thought they faqd it so warp surge could only get you to a 4++? Brigade was just for the cp I'm open to any mix of detachments so long as no dupes and max of 3, that's how it generally is round here.

Like a theme with armies hense the mono tzeetch, I own a ton of khorne and nurgle daemons 60 bl 60pb 25 hounds etc etc


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 00:43:51


Post by: lindsay40k


 DrGiggles wrote:
Can't find a post talking about it but how usable are the Khorne units found in Wrath and Rapture? I'm thinking about picking it up and using it with my World Eaters.


Karanak: interesting provider of DTW coverage & aura buff, uniquely combining cheapness, smallish base that can fit between the trees, and speed

Flesh Hounds: they’re okay but not as good as a letterbomb

Bloodcrushers: there’s pages and pages of attempts to find a single unit against which they are more efficient than letterbombs, as attackers or defenders. There’s nothing, even with the +1W


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 00:51:28


Post by: Rydria


How did slaanesh armies turn out after the point buffs + the new units in wrath and rapture, i'm getting my army back soon from the painter and haven't had a chance to play in awhile.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 01:36:38


Post by: lindsay40k


Fiends are still pricey gimmick tier. The new character is cool, her 24” aura is bad news for psykers.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 13:09:54


Post by: slave.entity


Is Khorne in 40k paying the price for being OP in AoS?

I don't play AoS, but from what I gather they seem pretty well-represented competitively over there.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 13:56:29


Post by: DrGiggles


 lindsay40k wrote:
 DrGiggles wrote:
Can't find a post talking about it but how usable are the Khorne units found in Wrath and Rapture? I'm thinking about picking it up and using it with my World Eaters.


Karanak: interesting provider of DTW coverage & aura buff, uniquely combining cheapness, smallish base that can fit between the trees, and speed

Flesh Hounds: they’re okay but not as good as a letterbomb

Bloodcrushers: there’s pages and pages of attempts to find a single unit against which they are more efficient than letterbombs, as attackers or defenders. There’s nothing, even with the +1W


Thanks, main reason why I was asking is my usual opponent runs a psychic heavy DG force. I figured DTW from Karanak and the Flesh Hounds would be useful with shutting that down.

On the Bloodcrushers- I'm assuming they aren't as useful as a letterbomb just because of the difference in # of attacks?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 16:12:52


Post by: labmouse42


 Latro_ wrote:
Thought they faqd it so warp surge could only get you to a 4++?
Read the wording of Tzeentch power, it gives a +1 to dice roll for their save. It does not work on horrors (who don't have the form but have a 4++) or anyone wearing the impossible robe or armor of scorn.

 Latro_ wrote:
Brigade was just for the cp I'm open to any mix of detachments so long as no dupes and max of 3, that's how it generally is round here.
IMHO daemons just don't have the good fast attack or heavy support to really make a Brigade work. There are lots of good reasons to split into multiple chaos gods. Going with just one severely limits your options. IMHO, it's better to have 2 battalions than a Bridgade. You can fill out your troops with nurglings and brimstone horrors and be just fine.

 Latro_ wrote:
Like a theme with armies hense the mono tzeetch
Themed armies are great. Themed armies are, by their very nature, not at competitive. Dakka is pretty far from a bastion of competitive 40k now a days. Much of the advice given here is just bad.

What's Competitive for Chaos
Right now the 1k sons book is the best chaos faction.

Take the 1k sons DPs. They are flat out better than the CD DPs. They can cast an extra power a turn. They get 3 schools to pick from -- giving a lot more options. Scarab Occult Terminators are roughly the same price as imperial versions, when you include their 15 points CMLs. Ahriman is a mini LoC for half the price.

They are just better in every way. Don't take my word for it. Look at the LVO lists that scored 5-1 or better. There were a lot of daemon lists in there, but they took 1k sons in addition to daemons.

Can You Make Pure Daemons Work?
I've been struggling with this for the past 2 months, since I got back into 40k. In a non-hyper competitive game, absolutely.
There are a few good gems in the daemon book that I've found.

* 6 flamers porting in. Since they have a range of 12", you can deep strike them away from a screen and give it a good roasting. With flickering fire/herald they can do a staggering amount of damage to screens. ~2 squads of these is about your sweet spot.
* Soul Grinders : They are really good for their cost at 180. Decent shooting. Good assault. I'm happy with them so far.
* Exalted Flamers : These units are solid for their cost.
* LoC : This guy with an impossible robe is still great.
* Rotigus is good for his cost.
* Plaguebearers are still very hard to shift troops.
* Nurglings are still great for denying deep striking units
* Horrors can do a good amount of shooting damage. Porting 20 in lets you get an alpha strike of 60 shots for 1 CP.

There may be more, I just have not found it yet through my games. If you have found more, please let me know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DrGiggles wrote:
On the Bloodcrushers- I'm assuming they aren't as useful as a letterbomb just because of the difference in # of attacks?
Bloodcrushers are 47 points a pop compared to the 7 for bloodletters.
That means for every crusher, you can afford 6.7 bloodletters.
The bloodcrusher has 6 attacks. The bloodletters would have 6.7 attacks, and will be hitting on a 2+. The crusher hits with a higher STR.
The bloodcrusher has 4 wounds. The bloodletters have 6.7. The bloodletters also have 6.7 different wounds, which means one LC kill is a lot less painful on a crusher over a letter.

Most of those are close to a wash. The big advantage 'letters bring is they are a troop choice. I've lost games because my objective was swarmed by a troop choice making my heavy support no longer hold it.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 16:37:53


Post by: small_gods



You forget that on a charge or being charged bloodletters have +1 attack. So in this example they have 13.4 attacks vs 6. They also have much much more board pressence. You can easily kill a threat, hold an objective and bad touch a shooting unit with one unit. Whereas crushers have to choose to do one. Plus smaller bases means you can get them places more easily and take hostages more easily.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 18:44:44


Post by: DrGiggles


 small_gods wrote:

You forget that on a charge or being charged bloodletters have +1 attack. So in this example they have 13.4 attacks vs 6. They also have much much more board pressence. You can easily kill a threat, hold an objective and bad touch a shooting unit with one unit. Whereas crushers have to choose to do one. Plus smaller bases means you can get them places more easily and take hostages more easily.


Thanks. Knowing that I'll probably just use the crushers as a distraction unit or to eat overwatch for the letters.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/14 21:22:27


Post by: Rydria


 lindsay40k wrote:
Fiends are still pricey gimmick tier. The new character is cool, her 24” aura is bad news for psykers.
I figured fiends would still be meh, they seem really over costed for what they do.

How well did everything else end up with the point decreases ?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/15 03:53:54


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I'm thinking of dumping my Soul Grinder for more Bloodletters. It's the only heavy support I currently have in the army, and unless I replace it with one Skull Cannon, I won't have any artillery whatsoever. Then again, I'm thinking of focusing on relying on deepstriking a lot of my forces to get into close combat quickly, and while I could do this with the SG, I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you all think I should do?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/15 09:21:16


Post by: JakeSiren


 Rydria wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:
Fiends are still pricey gimmick tier. The new character is cool, her 24” aura is bad news for psykers.
I figured fiends would still be meh, they seem really over costed for what they do.

How well did everything else end up with the point decreases ?

Personally I've found a 3 man unit of Fiends very useful.

Between having them lock enemies in combat that don't want to be there, and using that to take advantage of the character rules they are good. Most opponents who don't know Slaanesh will underestimate their disruptive potential.

In terms of other Slaanesh units, I can't really comment as I haven't been running pure Slaanesh for long.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/15 20:58:27


Post by: blackmage


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm thinking of dumping my Soul Grinder for more Bloodletters. It's the only heavy support I currently have in the army, and unless I replace it with one Skull Cannon, I won't have any artillery whatsoever. Then again, I'm thinking of focusing on relying on deepstriking a lot of my forces to get into close combat quickly, and while I could do this with the SG, I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you all think I should do?

competitive demons DO NOT need artillery


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/15 22:17:17


Post by: slave.entity


Warhammer Community is now advocating an 8x Bloodthirster list. Could this... could this just be crazy enough to work???

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/15/mar-15-warhammer-40000-daemons-of-khorne-tacticagw-homepage-post-3/


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/16 02:26:28


Post by: p5freak


No, doesn't work.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/16 02:31:19


Post by: JNAProductions


 p5freak wrote:
No, doesn't work.


I could see it working as a meta-buster when everyone has nothing but anti-infantry, and it's a casual meta...

But at a tournament? No. God no.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/16 03:41:59


Post by: ArcaneHorror


blackmage wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm thinking of dumping my Soul Grinder for more Bloodletters. It's the only heavy support I currently have in the army, and unless I replace it with one Skull Cannon, I won't have any artillery whatsoever. Then again, I'm thinking of focusing on relying on deepstriking a lot of my forces to get into close combat quickly, and while I could do this with the SG, I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you all think I should do?

competitive demons DO NOT need artillery


Good, more points for me then.

slave.entity wrote:Warhammer Community is now advocating an 8x Bloodthirster list. Could this... could this just be crazy enough to work???

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/15/mar-15-warhammer-40000-daemons-of-khorne-tacticagw-homepage-post-3/


Man, if I had the money for it, this would kick ass to run!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/16 22:05:14


Post by: slave.entity


 ArcaneHorror wrote:


slave.entity wrote:Warhammer Community is now advocating an 8x Bloodthirster list. Could this... could this just be crazy enough to work???

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/15/mar-15-warhammer-40000-daemons-of-khorne-tacticagw-homepage-post-3/


Man, if I had the money for it, this would kick ass to run!


It really would. In a non-tournament setting, what would be the target priority on the 3 different bloodthirster types?

I'm assuming they'd all deploy as far forward as possible and go for that T2 charge. I'd expect at least 3 dead bloodthirsters by the time they make it, but that's ok because there will be 5 more ready to smash into their infantry screen.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/16 22:50:24


Post by: lindsay40k


 slave.entity wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:


slave.entity wrote:Warhammer Community is now advocating an 8x Bloodthirster list. Could this... could this just be crazy enough to work???

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/15/mar-15-warhammer-40000-daemons-of-khorne-tacticagw-homepage-post-3/


Man, if I had the money for it, this would kick ass to run!


It really would. In a non-tournament setting, what would be the target priority on the 3 different bloodthirster types?

I'm assuming they'd all deploy as far forward as possible and go for that T2 charge. I'd expect at least 3 dead bloodthirsters by the time they make it, but that's ok because there will be 5 more ready to smash into their infantry screen.


If I were facing them, I’d probably go for the Insensate Ragers first. Every turn the infantry screen still exists is another turn of shooting at the steamroller.

I can see Skarbrand being a lynchpin. If he can get in there and force one of your screening units to stay in combat and get eaten in your turn, you’re in a LOT of trouble.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/17 01:17:59


Post by: labmouse42


Today I ran a three round RTT in New England with some really great players there. It was educational, and I wanted to share some of my experiences with you all.

Nurgle
I ran Sloppity and 2 squads of 30 plaguebearers. In no game was either squad completely wiped. They were brought down to 2-3 monsters in some games, but they always stuck around grabbing objectives and just being generally annoying.
They are really good units for general board control. I was able to use them to block off my entire deployment area in hammer and anvil to prevent deep strikers.

GUO
This is a good unit that absorbed an incredible amount of firepower. I would often use the power that made him -1 to hit, and his warlord trait gave everyone with 7" another -1 to hit. Having a -2 to hit this guy was really clutch. In 2/3 of the games he died. In 2/3 of them, he also did a heck of a lot of damage, wiping out multiple units and ripping apart titiantic units. For 275 points, it's a good model.

Soul Grinders
I ran three of them, and they were the MVPs of my games. For 180 points, they are just so darn resilient. They get 10 attacks in assault at full profile. The battlecannon and 3 shot autocannon shot are just so good. Sure they only hit on 5's when they move, but they can give a great threat zone. One of mine walked through a GSC army just tearing apart unit after unit. If you have not tried them, I suggest it.

Renegade Knight
I took one of these with a reaper chainsword and avenger gatling cannon. It was fairly 'meh' and died quickly in 2/3 of the games. I took the model because I think it looked great, but I don't think I'l be taking it again. I could have used deep striking flamers for a better effect.

Nurglings
If you are playing ITC, these guys are your engineers! Take 2 squads of them! Stick them in a building so they can't be seen, and let them just engineer away on an objective. One of my opponents used mortors to tag them from outside LoS (even when they were in a ruins with no doors) -- but in the other games they racked me up 4 points. Overall it merges very well with engineer.

Daemon Prince of Nurgle
You should already know all about these guys. They hit hard, they fly fast. They are fairly vulnerable when they can be targeted.
The GSC was able to do some damage with snipers on him, doing 6 wounds. That kind of sucked.
In my game against 'Crons, he lived the entire game slashing away on a huge lord of war model.
Against the eldar, he was caught out of position and brought down with shuriken cats.
By now, you should know about these guys. They deliver as advertised. 180 points of face hitting goodness.

GSC
This is an army to be really wary of. The guy I played with had 25 command points to start with. He got another 4 over the course of the game by using warlord traits.
He had tons of units, which let me get lots of kills against him. That's one weakness. He was able to deep strike some units with amazing synergy. He tore apart the knight like it was butter and did a number on many of the grinders.
Be careful of this list. I think the GSC is going to be a top tier list.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/17 02:06:47


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Hmmm, any nurgle daemon players considering adding a Daemonkin contingent to your army? With the new units and rules from shadowspear box.

Nurgle possessed are now a very hard hitting unit with additional buffs from Daemonkin. They have:

1) Master of possession psychic cursed earth to give them 4++
2) Master of possession psychic to give them reroll 1 to wound and to hit.
3) Master of possession psychic that can reroll their random attacks.
4) Greater possessed gives them +1 Str, which makes them str 6.
5) Greater possessed themselves are like mini daemon princes too. They hit like a truck.

And from the nurgle daemon side these possessed/greater possessed get:

1) +1 str from Plaguebringers (nurgle herald)
2) Nurgle Loci (exploding 6 wounds, etc).
3) Nurgle psychic spells.
4) Reroll 1 to hit (Daemon Prince).

Those nurgle possessed and greater possessed are going to be a really hard hitting unit on the battlefield.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/17 09:07:10


Post by: small_gods


 labmouse42 wrote:


Soul Grinders
I ran three of them, and they were the MVPs of my games. For 180 points, they are just so darn resilient. They get 10 attacks in assault at full profile. The battlecannon and 3 shot autocannon shot are just so good. Sure they only hit on 5's when they move, but they can give a great threat zone. One of mine walked through a GSC army just tearing apart unit after unit. If you have not tried them, I suggest it.


I still can't seem to get mine to run well in my list, when I run him I usually run a gallant too. Maybe I need to swap gallant for 2 more soul grunders. That said mine is khorne, were you running yours nurgle?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/17 11:50:42


Post by: Kuklops


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, any nurgle daemon players considering adding a Daemonkin contingent to your army? With the new units and rules from shadowspear box.

Nurgle possessed are now a very hard hitting unit with additional buffs from Daemonkin. They have:

1) Master of possession psychic cursed earth to give them 4++
2) Master of possession psychic to give them reroll 1 to wound and to hit.
3) Master of possession psychic that can reroll their random attacks.
4) Greater possessed gives them +1 Str, which makes them str 6.
5) Greater possessed themselves are like mini daemon princes too. They hit like a truck.

And from the nurgle daemon side these possessed/greater possessed get:

1) +1 str from Plaguebringers (nurgle herald)
2) Nurgle Loci (exploding 6 wounds, etc).
3) Nurgle psychic spells.
4) Reroll 1 to hit (Daemon Prince).

Those nurgle possessed and greater possessed are going to be a really hard hitting unit on the battlefield.


I play as DG player primarily so my Nurgle Daemons are usually a supporting detachment (I still have 2k points though!) but with this release I can see doing something like above as the synergy between Daemonkin and DG is clunky, where as it works fine between CSM/Daemonkin and ND. I think Nurglings and Plaguebearers really help this kind of build too as Nurglings can get right in your opponents face and PBs are decent in melee too, 20-30 can't be ignored. A Gnarlmaw is madatory IMO too for a 2+ save and fall back/advance charge to go with that juicy 4++ inv.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/17 12:05:39


Post by: labmouse42


 small_gods wrote:
I still can't seem to get mine to run well in my list, when I run him I usually run a gallant too. Maybe I need to swap gallant for 2 more soul grunders. That said mine is khorne, were you running yours nurgle?
Nurgle. Every day. Twice on Sunday.
Nurgle really ups their survivability, even more than Tzeentch.

So if you are Nurgle, and you are attacked by weapons that give you your base save -- like Tesla weapons, you are getting your 2/3 save plus your 1/3 DR. Lets say 120 orks swings are incoming at a soul grinder.

Khorne Grinder : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 2/27. 120 attacks = ~8.88 wounds to grinder. It's degraded
Nurgle Grinder : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed DR) = 4/81= ~5.92 wounds done to grinder. It's still at full.

That's almost 3 less wounds on average the nurgle grinder takes from the same attack. The nurgle grinder also can heal D3 wounds as a stratagem, and another D3 with a power. It's not uncommon for me to heal 4 wounds a round on a grinder, bringing it back up to full profile.

The nurgle grinder also really kicks in with a loci. Since they are swinging 10 times with a claw, they get more chances to roll that 6 to wound. That means any of those hits will make the claw do D3+1 damage, which is, on average, 3 damage vs 2. That's a 50% increase in damage.

The nurgle grinder can also benefit from the nurgle tree, letting you get all kinds of shennagins.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/17 18:58:01


Post by: small_gods


Spoiler:
 labmouse42 wrote:
 small_gods wrote:
I still can't seem to get mine to run well in my list, when I run him I usually run a gallant too. Maybe I need to swap gallant for 2 more soul grunders. That said mine is khorne, were you running yours nurgle?
Nurgle. Every day. Twice on Sunday.
Nurgle really ups their survivability, even more than Tzeentch.

So if you are Nurgle, and you are attacked by weapons that give you your base save -- like Tesla weapons, you are getting your 2/3 save plus your 1/3 DR. Lets say 120 orks swings are incoming at a soul grinder.

Khorne Grinder : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 2/27. 120 attacks = ~8.88 wounds to grinder. It's degraded
Nurgle Grinder : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (2/3 failed DR) = 4/81= ~5.92 wounds done to grinder. It's still at full.

That's almost 3 less wounds on average the nurgle grinder takes from the same attack. The nurgle grinder also can heal D3 wounds as a stratagem, and another D3 with a power. It's not uncommon for me to heal 4 wounds a round on a grinder, bringing it back up to full profile.

The nurgle grinder also really kicks in with a loci. Since they are swinging 10 times with a claw, they get more chances to roll that 6 to wound. That means any of those hits will make the claw do D3+1 damage, which is, on average, 3 damage vs 2. That's a 50% increase in damage.

The nurgle grinder can also benefit from the nurgle tree, letting you get all kinds of shennagins.


I hadn't considered the healing potential from nurgle, I only play plaguebearers and nurglings so I'm not looking to spend CP to get one back.

I find mine wrecks face if it's ignored but as soon as someone focuses down on it, it pops. Will proxy mine as nurgle and see how it runs.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/17 23:05:45


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 lindsay40k wrote:
 slave.entity wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:


slave.entity wrote:Warhammer Community is now advocating an 8x Bloodthirster list. Could this... could this just be crazy enough to work???

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/15/mar-15-warhammer-40000-daemons-of-khorne-tacticagw-homepage-post-3/


Man, if I had the money for it, this would kick ass to run!


It really would. In a non-tournament setting, what would be the target priority on the 3 different bloodthirster types?

I'm assuming they'd all deploy as far forward as possible and go for that T2 charge. I'd expect at least 3 dead bloodthirsters by the time they make it, but that's ok because there will be 5 more ready to smash into their infantry screen.


If I were facing them, I’d probably go for the Insensate Ragers first. Every turn the infantry screen still exists is another turn of shooting at the steamroller.

I can see Skarbrand being a lynchpin. If he can get in there and force one of your screening units to stay in combat and get eaten in your turn, you’re in a LOT of trouble.


That's a good strategy, although the UFs' hitting power don't degrade from damage, so that's something to consider. As for Skarbrand, given his points cost, wouldn't adding him for you to remove two other models? I'm curious, what, if anything, would you put in place with the leftover points?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/18 19:14:56


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


 labmouse42 wrote:
Today I ran a three round RTT in New England with some really great players there. It was educational, and I wanted to share some of my experiences with you all.

Nurgle
I ran Sloppity and 2 squads of 30 plaguebearers. In no game was either squad completely wiped. They were brought down to 2-3 monsters in some games, but they always stuck around grabbing objectives and just being generally annoying.
They are really good units for general board control. I was able to use them to block off my entire deployment area in hammer and anvil to prevent deep strikers.

GUO
This is a good unit that absorbed an incredible amount of firepower. I would often use the power that made him -1 to hit, and his warlord trait gave everyone with 7" another -1 to hit. Having a -2 to hit this guy was really clutch. In 2/3 of the games he died. In 2/3 of them, he also did a heck of a lot of damage, wiping out multiple units and ripping apart titiantic units. For 275 points, it's a good model.

Soul Grinders
I ran three of them, and they were the MVPs of my games. For 180 points, they are just so darn resilient. They get 10 attacks in assault at full profile. The battlecannon and 3 shot autocannon shot are just so good. Sure they only hit on 5's when they move, but they can give a great threat zone. One of mine walked through a GSC army just tearing apart unit after unit. If you have not tried them, I suggest it.

Renegade Knight
I took one of these with a reaper chainsword and avenger gatling cannon. It was fairly 'meh' and died quickly in 2/3 of the games. I took the model because I think it looked great, but I don't think I'l be taking it again. I could have used deep striking flamers for a better effect.

Nurglings
If you are playing ITC, these guys are your engineers! Take 2 squads of them! Stick them in a building so they can't be seen, and let them just engineer away on an objective. One of my opponents used mortors to tag them from outside LoS (even when they were in a ruins with no doors) -- but in the other games they racked me up 4 points. Overall it merges very well with engineer.

Daemon Prince of Nurgle
You should already know all about these guys. They hit hard, they fly fast. They are fairly vulnerable when they can be targeted.
The GSC was able to do some damage with snipers on him, doing 6 wounds. That kind of sucked.
In my game against 'Crons, he lived the entire game slashing away on a huge lord of war model.
Against the eldar, he was caught out of position and brought down with shuriken cats.
By now, you should know about these guys. They deliver as advertised. 180 points of face hitting goodness.

GSC
This is an army to be really wary of. The guy I played with had 25 command points to start with. He got another 4 over the course of the game by using warlord traits.
He had tons of units, which let me get lots of kills against him. That's one weakness. He was able to deep strike some units with amazing synergy. He tore apart the knight like it was butter and did a number on many of the grinders.
Be careful of this list. I think the GSC is going to be a top tier list.



I like the idea of Soul Grinders but they really only seem to be good for Nurgle (which is why you took them I guess haha). I suppose Khorne could use them effectively too.

It would be great to have them advancing and charging with my Slaanesh Daemons but then the 2 guns are completely wasted. And frankly, I can get 2 exalted Chariots for 1 soul grinder (literally). I don’t think the Soul Grinder would be that much tougher... but would it be more killy is the debate I guess.

24 wounds vs 14, but less toughness. But the chariots are so much faster. And you get 16 attacks at full profile.. but at much lower strength.

Maybe the 3+ regular armor would make one or two worth it.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/20 02:35:53


Post by: lindsay40k


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:
If I were facing (eight Bloodthirsters), I’d probably go for the Insensate Ragers first. Every turn the infantry screen still exists is another turn of shooting at the steamroller.

I can see Skarbrand being a lynchpin. If he can get in there and force one of your screening units to stay in combat and get eaten in your turn, you’re in a LOT of trouble.


That's a good strategy, although the UFs' hitting power don't degrade from damage, so that's something to consider. As for Skarbrand, given his points cost, wouldn't adding him for you to remove two other models? I'm curious, what, if anything, would you put in place with the leftover points?


Well yeah, Skar does disrupt this list concept, though he can bring along Karanak for DTW coverage and a Daemon Prince to give reroll aura & ensure Skullreaver doesn’t get nuked on turn one

Also: how do you mean UF’s hitting power doesn’t degrade from damage, it loses 2A each tier in my book?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/20 04:57:53


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 lindsay40k wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:
If I were facing (eight Bloodthirsters), I’d probably go for the Insensate Ragers first. Every turn the infantry screen still exists is another turn of shooting at the steamroller.

I can see Skarbrand being a lynchpin. If he can get in there and force one of your screening units to stay in combat and get eaten in your turn, you’re in a LOT of trouble.


That's a good strategy, although the UFs' hitting power don't degrade from damage, so that's something to consider. As for Skarbrand, given his points cost, wouldn't adding him for you to remove two other models? I'm curious, what, if anything, would you put in place with the leftover points?


Well yeah, Skar does disrupt this list concept, though he can bring along Karanak for DTW coverage and a Daemon Prince to give reroll aura & ensure Skullreaver doesn’t get nuked on turn one

Also: how do you mean UF’s hitting power doesn’t degrade from damage, it loses 2A each tier in my book?


I was referring specifically to his weapon skill. And I like the Skarbrand/Karanak/DP for the aura, protection, and the simple sheer melee storm that it would be bring.

On another note, I played my first game the other day, and given my almost non-experience, I did quite well. I was playing against Drukhari, and was bulldozing their army, but my opponent won by seizing all of the objectives.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/20 09:52:54


Post by: MrPieChee


I've seen a few people mention mounted heralds of slaanesh - I've looked through the book many times but can't find the option. Could someone point me at the page number, or whatever other book it's in?

And along the same theme, where can I find the rules for the wrath and rapture slaanesh character?


I was looking at supplementing my CSM with wrath and rapture, but the gist of the last four pages are that crushers and friends aren't worth it... Is it a meta thing? I.e. their extra toughness is neutered by the weapons usually found, or is it a pure rules/balance problem?

I'm only ever going to play friendly games, so it's not entirely a deal breaker, but it would be nice to know they are not complete garbage...

edit: Along the same train of thought, how do seekers compare to fiends and deamonettes? The extra movement is huge for first turn charges on seekers over Daemonettes and they have fractionally more attacks per point. Along the same lines, fiends don't seem that bad...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/20 13:37:21


Post by: small_gods


MrPieChee wrote:
I've seen a few people mention mounted heralds of slaanesh - I've looked through the book many times but can't find the option. Could someone point me at the page number, or whatever other book it's in?

And along the same theme, where can I find the rules for the wrath and rapture slaanesh character?


I was looking at supplementing my CSM with wrath and rapture, but the gist of the last four pages are that crushers and friends aren't worth it... Is it a meta thing? I.e. their extra toughness is neutered by the weapons usually found, or is it a pure rules/balance problem?

I'm only ever going to play friendly games, so it's not entirely a deal breaker, but it would be nice to know they are not complete garbage...

edit: Along the same train of thought, how do seekers compare to fiends and deamonettes? The extra movement is huge for first turn charges on seekers over Daemonettes and they have fractionally more attacks per point. Along the same lines, fiends don't seem that bad...


They are an index option so not in codex but in index chaos. The enchantress has rules in the box or you could check out battlescribe. She's pretty good for anti psyker and summoning.

Fiends are definately worth it, their aura will tie up some massive shooting units. Bloodcrushers not so much. Too easy to kill with multi danage weapons for their cost unfortunately. But nothing is unplayable, just a poor comparison to bloodletters.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/20 16:30:23


Post by: MrPieChee


Thanks,

Can index heralds use codex psychic powers, or are they limited to the three in the index?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/20 16:41:19


Post by: p5freak


My chaos daemons codex has a herald of slaanesh on p.101.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/20 17:17:20


Post by: Excommunicatus


 p5freak wrote:
My chaos daemons codex has a herald of slaanesh on p.101.


Not a mounted one.

Index Heralds can use all the powers, Relics and Traits from the Codex, if they meet the requirements for same.

They can't use Slothful Claws because you have to swap Ravaging Claws for that and Index Heralds don't have Ravaging Claws, they have (D1) Piercing Claws.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/21 12:53:20


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


 Excommunicatus wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
My chaos daemons codex has a herald of slaanesh on p.101.


Not a mounted one.

Index Heralds can use all the powers, Relics and Traits from the Codex, if they meet the requirements for same.

They can't use Slothful Claws because you have to swap Ravaging Claws for that and Index Heralds don't have Ravaging Claws, they have (D1) Piercing Claws.


Thankfully what I predicted way back when this happened aligns with what seems to be happening. To diversify the range they took the mounted heralds out to introduce new versions, much like everyone else has. The Infernal Enrapturess is probably just out first. To line up with everyone else we'll one to two more I think? I forget what other herald versions everyone else has. So far we have the standard herald, the masque and the infernal enrapturess. Hopefully one of the new ones is mounted! Someone needs to keep up with our chariots and seekers.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/21 14:14:53


Post by: MrPieChee


That's where I was going - I want a character supporting fiends and seekers. The index mounted herald seems a bit pricey compared to the codex non-mounted herald...

I could run a prince, but he currently doesn't have wings, and I was planning on keeping him with a CSM detachment - a price leading a Daemon patrol isn't very fluffy! Haven't done the maths but I feel the price aura buff isn't as good...


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/21 14:35:37


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


MrPieChee wrote:
That's where I was going - I want a character supporting fiends and seekers. The index mounted herald seems a bit pricey compared to the codex non-mounted herald...

I could run a prince, but he currently doesn't have wings, and I was planning on keeping him with a CSM detachment - a price leading a Daemon patrol isn't very fluffy! Haven't done the maths but I feel the price aura buff isn't as good...


Some Daemon Princes are from before Space Marines existed, so it isn't entirely unfluffy. For my Slaanesh force I have two Daemon Princes (Prince/Princess really)... though fluff wise they are from before Old Night and were lovers in their mortal lives, etc, etc haha.

Both the Prince buff and the Herald buff are useful but they do different things... but the +1 Str is probably more useful. Daemonettes wounding marines on 4s instead of 5s makes a good difference.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/21 14:45:59


Post by: p5freak


 Excommunicatus wrote:

Not a mounted one.

He didnt ask for a mounted one.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Index Heralds can use all the powers, Relics and Traits from the Codex, if they meet the requirements for same.


No, they cant. The designers commentary only gives you permission to use the index datasheet. And the index datasheet tells you which powers, relics and traits from the index they can use, if any.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/21 18:49:17


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Datasheets don't give you permission to take relics, the relics themselves do. Otherwise no one can take relics.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/21 22:51:34


Post by: Excommunicatus


MrPieChee wrote:
I've seen a few people mention mounted heralds of slaanesh.


Alrighty then.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/22 16:10:31


Post by: Zid


Howdy all,

Jumping in to say I just released two competitive Demons Tacticas on youtube a few days early; if you're interested links below!

NURGLE DEMONS: https://youtu.be/bL8BjgK2nUk

KHORNE DEMONS: https://youtu.be/O7HTjAz8qLo


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/22 23:32:34


Post by: labmouse42


 Zid wrote:
Howdy all,

Jumping in to say I just released two competitive Demons Tacticas on youtube a few days early; if you're interested links below!

NURGLE DEMONS: https://youtu.be/bL8BjgK2nUk

KHORNE DEMONS: https://youtu.be/O7HTjAz8qLo
I just finished the nurgle vid. Great stuff. There are a few notes I wanted to add
* 1k sons DPs are better than CD or Daemons. They get to pick from 3 schools, and can cast 2ce per phase. They are just flat out better for no extra cost.
* The way I look at nurglings is that you are paying 4 points per wound. Sure, it's low Toughness and STR, but point for point they are great troops. I've had them block insane charges before and just laugh.
* I'm not really feeling plague drones at 40ppm. I'll try bringing a few and seeing how they work.
* Soul grinders at 180 points are fantastic. I've never had a game where the grinder has been unable to get into assault. They also have decent shooting. They are a rockstar of a unit. If you want to leave them just as pure shooting and anti-assault units, you can plot them by a gnarlmaul and they will enjoy a 1+ save.
* The instrument gives +1 move, which is useful
* You can deep strike scabby. Hes just to expensive


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 00:23:17


Post by: Zid


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Zid wrote:
Howdy all,

Jumping in to say I just released two competitive Demons Tacticas on youtube a few days early; if you're interested links below!

NURGLE DEMONS: https://youtu.be/bL8BjgK2nUk

KHORNE DEMONS: https://youtu.be/O7HTjAz8qLo
I just finished the nurgle vid. Great stuff. There are a few notes I wanted to add
* 1k sons DPs are better than CD or Daemons. They get to pick from 3 schools, and can cast 2ce per phase. They are just flat out better for no extra cost.
* The way I look at nurglings is that you are paying 4 points per wound. Sure, it's low Toughness and STR, but point for point they are great troops. I've had them block insane charges before and just laugh.
* I'm not really feeling plague drones at 40ppm. I'll try bringing a few and seeing how they work.
* Soul grinders at 180 points are fantastic. I've never had a game where the grinder has been unable to get into assault. They also have decent shooting. They are a rockstar of a unit. If you want to leave them just as pure shooting and anti-assault units, you can plot them by a gnarlmaul and they will enjoy a 1+ save.
* The instrument gives +1 move, which is useful
* You can deep strike scabby. Hes just to expensive


I agree, 1k sons DPs are amazing, nurgle ones have a place too (and death guard ones), i also agree with nurglings theyre the best troop in the game (hence A+ grade) imo. The instrument is +1 advance and charge, its useful, but the 10 points can be better spent of plagues are not for damage in your list, i always cut them when plagues are walling for other stuff. Gnarlmaw doesnt work on the soulgrinder its a vehicle as far as cover, but im glad to hear he works for someone; i always compare him to my PBCs and auto pick PBCs.

Good feedback, i like discussing these things


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 02:09:13


Post by: labmouse42


 Zid wrote:
. Gnarlmaw doesnt work on the soulgrinder its a vehicle as far as cover, but im glad to hear he works for someone; i always compare him to my PBCs and auto pick PBCs.
Compare the soulgrinder to a PBC.

The grinder is T7 with 14 wounds, 3+ and DR.
The grinder has a (better) battle cannon (STR 6, D6 shots, -2 AP, 3 dmg). The 3 flat dmg on this is really good.
The grinder has an autocannon. (STR 7, 3 shots -1 AP, 2 dmg)
The grinder has 10 STR 8, AP-2 D3 dmg attacks in assault. If you have a loci nearby, any wounds of a 6 are D3+1 dmg.
You could also take the 5 swings at STR 16, D6 dmg. I do this vs knights or other T8 targets so I'm wounding on a 2+.
The grinder never degrades weapon skill. It's a nice perk that it's always hitting on a 4+. Even when at the lowest profile it's still getting 4 swings.

I've had people throw 5 man units into my grinder to bog it down, only to have them ... well ... ground into bits.
One person said it best. A grinder is like a PBC that does not just stop and die if a cultist touches it.
I've been using 2-3 in each list and really liking what it has been bringing to the table. In more than one tourney they were my MVP




Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 04:57:03


Post by: Gordon Shumway


 Excommunicatus wrote:
MrPieChee wrote:
I've seen a few people mention mounted heralds of slaanesh.


Alrighty then.


Um yeah, I think I'm a somewhat regular person, but I'd have a hard time not mounting a herald of slaneesh. Whatever that means. Or something.

Edit: I mean they must get some sort of bonus or something, right?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 07:07:08


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I was thinking of getting Samus and Uraka the Warfiend for my Khorne daemon army. Are they worth it on the table?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 07:07:51


Post by: Zid


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Zid wrote:
. Gnarlmaw doesnt work on the soulgrinder its a vehicle as far as cover, but im glad to hear he works for someone; i always compare him to my PBCs and auto pick PBCs.
Compare the soulgrinder to a PBC.

The grinder is T7 with 14 wounds, 3+ and DR.
The grinder has a (better) battle cannon (STR 6, D6 shots, -2 AP, 3 dmg). The 3 flat dmg on this is really good.
The grinder has an autocannon. (STR 7, 3 shots -1 AP, 2 dmg)
The grinder has 10 STR 8, AP-2 D3 dmg attacks in assault. If you have a loci nearby, any wounds of a 6 are D3+1 dmg.
You could also take the 5 swings at STR 16, D6 dmg. I do this vs knights or other T8 targets so I'm wounding on a 2+.
The grinder never degrades weapon skill. It's a nice perk that it's always hitting on a 4+. Even when at the lowest profile it's still getting 4 swings.

I've had people throw 5 man units into my grinder to bog it down, only to have them ... well ... ground into bits.
One person said it best. A grinder is like a PBC that does not just stop and die if a cultist touches it.
I've been using 2-3 in each list and really liking what it has been bringing to the table. In more than one tourney they were my MVP




What does a grinder do that a defiler doesn't do better or same for cheaper? You only get 5 attacks... where are getting 10? Yes the plgehm is d3, but when will this come into play with varying d6 shots and BS 5 if you move? PBCs mortars miss, but you k ow they miss and they are extra shots on top of the main reason you use them (flamers and bullying), a grinder wants to get into CC so cant advance and shoot.

Yes the PBC gets shut down if you let it get tied up, but it lasta far fat longer than a grinder in most games. T8 vs T7 is pretty huge.

The thing with the grinder is its like a defiler, but with arguably worse weapons, less attacks, and 40 points more because it gets a demon ability. Nurgle and Slaanesh are usable, but not competitive when you put them against other stuff we have accesss too. If a defiler is underwhelming (which it is) why would i want a grinder? Because it looks cool and gets DR? Any well formed list can easily kill 2 in a turn, despite DR its just got a 5++ and 14 wounds. They just need to tier it once and its greatly neutered.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 11:57:44


Post by: labmouse42


 Zid wrote:
What does a grinder do that a defiler doesn't do better or same for cheaper?
Defilers are also fantastic. Grinders have DR, where defilers do not. That means your grinders have effectively 1/3 more wounds than your defiler. I am working on adding 3 defilers into my army to try out 3 grinders and 3 defilers -- ideally with the new HQ that gives them +1 BS.

 Zid wrote:
You only get 5 attacks... where are getting 10?
Look at the warpclaw profile. "Make 2 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon instead of one". Since were also talking defilers, they get 7 swings if they also have a scourge.

 Zid wrote:
Yes the plgehm is d3, but when will this come into play with varying d6 shots and BS 5 if you move? PBCs mortars miss, but you k ow they miss and they are extra shots on top of the main reason you use them (flamers and bullying),
TEven when they are all moving up, if you are bringing 3, you will be hitting with d6 phlem and 3 autocannon shots on average -- a bit more if you have a prince nearby. I'm not saying it's great long range fire, but it's done some work for me to take out critical threats to my army -- like fishing out mortars before they wiped out all my nurglings.

 Zid wrote:
a grinder wants to get into CC so cant advance and shoot.
This may be surprising, but sometimes I am not always moving my grinders forward. Last weekend I was in a game vs GSC, and I knew he was coming to me. I used my plague bearers to gain board control, I was holding 2 objective and I just sat and waited for him to appear and burn my screens. When he did, the grinders got involved. While often they are moving up to be a threat, that's not always the case.

 Zid wrote:
Yes the PBC gets shut down if you let it get tied up, but it lasta far fat longer than a grinder in most games. T8 vs T7 is pretty huge.
I agree. T8 is a nice perk. Even with having 2 wounds less than a grinder, the PBC is a tough nut to crack.

 Zid wrote:
The thing with the grinder is its like a defiler, but with arguably worse weapons, less attacks, and 40 points more because it gets a demon ability. Nurgle and Slaanesh are usable, but not competitive when you put them against other stuff we have accesss too. If a defiler is underwhelming (which it is) why would i want a grinder? Because it looks cool and gets DR? Any well formed list can easily kill 2 in a turn, despite DR its just got a 5++ and 14 wounds. They just need to tier it once and its greatly neutered.
I disagree. While some lists can destroy 1 grinder a turn, I've not played a game where I've lost 2 a turn -- even the lists where I've had 25 lootas shooting at them. In every game I've played with them, I've had my opponents comment on just how tough of a nut to crack they are. Since you want to look at what a defiler vs grinder gives you...
* 3 dmg vs D3 with battle cannon. That's 50% more damage. Rarely has the 36" been an issue
* D3 dmg vs 1 dmg with the autocannon. That's double the damage
* More attacks vs masses with minions.
I also disagree that the defiler is underwhelming. For 144 points they are a nice package. As mentioned, I plan on trying out 3 of them to see how they mix. I think with the new updates to daemon engines coming up, were going to see a lot more of them in future lists.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 12:25:06


Post by: Zid


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Zid wrote:
What does a grinder do that a defiler doesn't do better or same for cheaper?
Defilers are also fantastic. Grinders have DR, where defilers do not. That means your grinders have effectively 1/3 more wounds than your defiler. I am working on adding 3 defilers into my army to try out 3 grinders and 3 defilers -- ideally with the new HQ that gives them +1 BS.

 Zid wrote:
You only get 5 attacks... where are getting 10?
Look at the warpclaw profile. "Make 2 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon instead of one". Since were also talking defilers, they get 7 swings if they also have a scourge.

 Zid wrote:
Yes the plgehm is d3, but when will this come into play with varying d6 shots and BS 5 if you move? PBCs mortars miss, but you k ow they miss and they are extra shots on top of the main reason you use them (flamers and bullying),
TEven when they are all moving up, if you are bringing 3, you will be hitting with d6 phlem and 3 autocannon shots on average -- a bit more if you have a prince nearby. I'm not saying it's great long range fire, but it's done some work for me to take out critical threats to my army -- like fishing out mortars before they wiped out all my nurglings.

 Zid wrote:
a grinder wants to get into CC so cant advance and shoot.
This may be surprising, but sometimes I am not always moving my grinders forward. Last weekend I was in a game vs GSC, and I knew he was coming to me. I used my plague bearers to gain board control, I was holding 2 objective and I just sat and waited for him to appear and burn my screens. When he did, the grinders got involved. While often they are moving up to be a threat, that's not always the case.

 Zid wrote:
Yes the PBC gets shut down if you let it get tied up, but it lasta far fat longer than a grinder in most games. T8 vs T7 is pretty huge.
I agree. T8 is a nice perk. Even with having 2 wounds less than a grinder, the PBC is a tough nut to crack.

 Zid wrote:
The thing with the grinder is its like a defiler, but with arguably worse weapons, less attacks, and 40 points more because it gets a demon ability. Nurgle and Slaanesh are usable, but not competitive when you put them against other stuff we have accesss too. If a defiler is underwhelming (which it is) why would i want a grinder? Because it looks cool and gets DR? Any well formed list can easily kill 2 in a turn, despite DR its just got a 5++ and 14 wounds. They just need to tier it once and its greatly neutered.
I disagree. While some lists can destroy 1 grinder a turn, I've not played a game where I've lost 2 a turn -- even the lists where I've had 25 lootas shooting at them. In every game I've played with them, I've had my opponents comment on just how tough of a nut to crack they are. Since you want to look at what a defiler vs grinder gives you...
* 3 dmg vs D3 with battle cannon. That's 50% more damage. Rarely has the 36" been an issue
* D3 dmg vs 1 dmg with the autocannon. That's double the damage
* More attacks vs masses with minions.
I also disagree that the defiler is underwhelming. For 144 points they are a nice package. As mentioned, I plan on trying out 3 of them to see how they mix. I think with the new updates to daemon engines coming up, were going to see a lot more of them in future lists.


Im still not sold, and i run defilers pretty often and find them just average; this is all personal opinion though. I have faced soulgrinders several times and find they can be ignored, Nurgle ones are more annoying to kill, but the goal is to tier them once or twice and slow them down then kill other stuff.

Yes, the new stuff IMPROVED defilers, but its a lot of support to make an average model good. Its 150+ for the lord of discord (wounds 12 btw so dont expect it to live long), 98 for a MOP, and you will want first to get off the 4++.

All these supports add up quickly, i prefer stuff that can operate independent from buffs and do alright if i need it.

DR is a huge boon over the defiler, but otherwise the defiler imo is better. Plus of course its gonna be hard to crack if you were playing the gnarlmaw benefitted this guy otherwise hes a large space marine.

If they work for you, great! Id rather spend 180 points and grab another demon prince (1k sons, khorne, or nurgle).

Edit: your right, didnt see the warp claw. That does make him pretty decent in CC.

Double edit: lord discordant costs around the same as a defiler, but with ws 2/ bs 2, so i could see running 3x lords over defilers


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 15:38:25


Post by: labmouse42


 Zid wrote:
If they work for you, great! Id rather spend 180 points and grab another demon prince (1k sons, khorne, or nurgle).
As a heads up, I've been finding my DPs are getting sniped more by assassins, GSC and SM scout snipers. Snipers are becoming more and more common. The GSC one with the relic sniper is bonkers, as it can also cause perils. I'm starting to shy away from running multiple DPs because of this. They are not as 'protected' as they were.

We can also expect the Catellen to get nurfed soon -- probably with the next FAQ. With the majority of the top tables at LVO having one in their list, it's gotten the attention of GW.
This will dramatically change the game, which is the biggest problem running things like greater daemons provides.

These combine to make normal greater daemons more viable.
I've been running a GUO with good results. You mentioned the -1 to hit within 7" was garbage, but I've had some good luck with it. What I've done is give the GUO the power that makes him -1 to hit, and when he's stuck in he's then -2 to hit. This makes him a lot more durable. About a third the time I deep strike him. The other times I've just rushed him forward with the grinders.

Edit : Thanks for the discussion.

Double Edit : Snipers are also going to change the daemon meta. You can't rely upon Sloppity or Spoilpox to be around. You can't run 90 plaguebearers and use those 2 to boost your plaguebearers with no fear any more. That's why i'm looking into other ways to support the daemon carpet. Grinders / Defilers are really good support to a plaugebearer blob. 30 plague bearers with one of those inside are great for board control.
Like you, I play ITC. My lists are designed to 1) Hold Objectives 2) Kill 1 unit a turn 3) Complete secondaries when possible. Don't nurglings make great engineers?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 15:57:17


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Have a question on Nurglings. These are like scouts right? So, what happens if they got multiple units Vindicare and scouts, and we have multiple units of Nurglings, then what happens ? Roll off? place one by one taking turns ?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 16:13:51


Post by: labmouse42


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Have a question on Nurglings. These are like scouts right? So, what happens if they got multiple units Vindicare and scouts, and we have multiple units of Nurglings, then what happens ? Roll off? place one by one taking turns ?
It depends on your deployment type. If the missions says 'player A deploys then player B deploys', then you put all your nurglings out during your deployment.

If you are taking turns deploying units, well...you still put them out as normal deployment. The difference is that you can block their scouts with your nurglings. (and they can block you)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 16:20:56


Post by: Eldenfirefly


So if they are using those new infiltrators with omni scramblers, and they happened to go first, does this mean they can screen out where we can place our nurglings with those omni scramblers ?

When we place our nurglings, does it count as setting up in the battlefield as reinforcements ?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 17:17:13


Post by: Zid


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Zid wrote:
If they work for you, great! Id rather spend 180 points and grab another demon prince (1k sons, khorne, or nurgle).
As a heads up, I've been finding my DPs are getting sniped more by assassins, GSC and SM scout snipers. Snipers are becoming more and more common. The GSC one with the relic sniper is bonkers, as it can also cause perils. I'm starting to shy away from running multiple DPs because of this. They are not as 'protected' as they were.

We can also expect the Catellen to get nurfed soon -- probably with the next FAQ. With the majority of the top tables at LVO having one in their list, it's gotten the attention of GW.
This will dramatically change the game, which is the biggest problem running things like greater daemons provides.

These combine to make normal greater daemons more viable.
I've been running a GUO with good results. You mentioned the -1 to hit within 7" was garbage, but I've had some good luck with it. What I've done is give the GUO the power that makes him -1 to hit, and when he's stuck in he's then -2 to hit. This makes him a lot more durable. About a third the time I deep strike him. The other times I've just rushed him forward with the grinders.

Edit : Thanks for the discussion.

Double Edit : Snipers are also going to change the daemon meta. You can't rely upon Sloppity or Spoilpox to be around. You can't run 90 plaguebearers and use those 2 to boost your plaguebearers with no fear any more. That's why i'm looking into other ways to support the daemon carpet. Grinders / Defilers are really good support to a plaugebearer blob. 30 plague bearers with one of those inside are great for board control.
Like you, I play ITC. My lists are designed to 1) Hold Objectives 2) Kill 1 unit a turn 3) Complete secondaries when possible. Don't nurglings make great engineers?


After Nick Rose abadoned GSC, and a lot of the big wigs are turning away, i dont think they will be so common. But yes, the vindicare makes many demon hqs useless unless theres stuff to hide behind. This is particularly why i prefer nurgle DPs because they can get the auto d3 mortals strat done to them as easily as tzeentch, lol.

I dont disagree, i am a big fan of epidemus and i keep trying to make nurgle demon engines with him work. Pbcs do this very well, but you are right.

The main reason i say that is greater demons are very, very squishy. If you deep strike, you rely on a 9" charge to get use of the strat. GUO is not very hard to kill, especially in netas used to Mortarian w/ miasma, its basically the same thing. But if you are finding success with it, thats great! I prefer Death Guard as my warlords because the plate relic is amazing, or the Skullreaver prince.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 17:34:56


Post by: labmouse42


 Zid wrote:
The main reason i say that is greater demons are very, very squishy. If you deep strike, you rely on a 9" charge to get use of the strat. GUO is not very hard to kill, especially in netas used to Mortarian w/ miasma, its basically the same thing. But if you are finding success with it, thats great! I prefer Death Guard as my warlords because the plate relic is amazing, or the Skullreaver prince.
The relic plate is bonkers good.

One of the things I'm going to try is mixing in some 1k sons with my tzeentch daemons. I'm bringing my nurgle brigade for 5cp, then some flamers to deep strike and a squad of Sarab Occult Terminators. Then for my last unit I was going to bring a supreme command of 1k sons daemon princes. I'm going to play around with it and let you know how it works.

Don't get me wrong about the GUO. He still dies. In the past 6 games I've played in, he has died 5 times. Has he 'earned his points back'? It depends on the game. He wrecked a knight, and a necron tessearact. I've also had him walk over enemy HQs. Bumping nurgle daemons LD to 10 helps when my plaguebearers are getting shot to bits. His role is not just 'earning his points back' however. There is a reason I try not to use that term. It's because the game is not won by the number of points a model kills. It's scored on objectives, killing units, and secondaries. I'll gladly trade 1500 points for 300 points of models if it makes me get those objectives.
I don't mind my opponent killing the GUO, because I'm feeding it to him. If it gives me board control for X turns in Y space, then it's 'earned its points back' by giving me more battlepoints.

The GSC guy I played was Todd Silber, who is an extremely good player here in the New England area. He brought 2 brigade and 1 battalion of GSC, so he started the game with 32 CP, and gathered another 3-4 over the game. He did not bring a single genestealer (other than the patriarch). It was a brutal assault list that showed up in your face. That's going to be a sleeper list that will not catch on until you see it clobber someone at a GT.

My biggest challenge running nurgle at ITC events is this : Nurgle is a point deny list. It's really hard to kill a unit at turn from nurgle lists. This limits the amount of points my opponent can extract from me, but because my army is also not that killy it also limits the points that I can earn. Most games have ended in the mid to late 20s in points. Sometimes I'm a few points ahead, sometimes I'm a few points behind, but rarely is it a blowout of 30-15.

Tzeentch does not have that same issue. Tzeentch is more killy and can merge with the 1k sons more easily (see the SOT idea above).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 18:20:56


Post by: Zid


 labmouse42 wrote:
 Zid wrote:
The main reason i say that is greater demons are very, very squishy. If you deep strike, you rely on a 9" charge to get use of the strat. GUO is not very hard to kill, especially in netas used to Mortarian w/ miasma, its basically the same thing. But if you are finding success with it, thats great! I prefer Death Guard as my warlords because the plate relic is amazing, or the Skullreaver prince.
The relic plate is bonkers good.

One of the things I'm going to try is mixing in some 1k sons with my tzeentch daemons. I'm bringing my nurgle brigade for 5cp, then some flamers to deep strike and a squad of Sarab Occult Terminators. Then for my last unit I was going to bring a supreme command of 1k sons daemon princes. I'm going to play around with it and let you know how it works.

Don't get me wrong about the GUO. He still dies. In the past 6 games I've played in, he has died 5 times. Has he 'earned his points back'? It depends on the game. He wrecked a knight, and a necron tessearact. I've also had him walk over enemy HQs. Bumping nurgle daemons LD to 10 helps when my plaguebearers are getting shot to bits. His role is not just 'earning his points back' however. There is a reason I try not to use that term. It's because the game is not won by the number of points a model kills. It's scored on objectives, killing units, and secondaries. I'll gladly trade 1500 points for 300 points of models if it makes me get those objectives.
I don't mind my opponent killing the GUO, because I'm feeding it to him. If it gives me board control for X turns in Y space, then it's 'earned its points back' by giving me more battlepoints.

The GSC guy I played was Todd Silber, who is an extremely good player here in the New England area. He brought 2 brigade and 1 battalion of GSC, so he started the game with 32 CP, and gathered another 3-4 over the game. He did not bring a single genestealer (other than the patriarch). It was a brutal assault list that showed up in your face. That's going to be a sleeper list that will not catch on until you see it clobber someone at a GT.

My biggest challenge running nurgle at ITC events is this : Nurgle is a point deny list. It's really hard to kill a unit at turn from nurgle lists. This limits the amount of points my opponent can extract from me, but because my army is also not that killy it also limits the points that I can earn. Most games have ended in the mid to late 20s in points. Sometimes I'm a few points ahead, sometimes I'm a few points behind, but rarely is it a blowout of 30-15.

Tzeentch does not have that same issue. Tzeentch is more killy and can merge with the 1k sons more easily (see the SOT idea above).


I run Nurgle/1k sons all the time, its pretty insane how well it works together. Scarabs are pretty incredible, Flamers feel like you are double dipping unless hordes are so common for you. Flamers are good assassins too, ds in and pick up a sniper or support character (12" flamers goooooood).

I generally go with Death Guard myself, Blightlord terminators are incredible, and arxh contaminator is probably my favorite warlord trait in the game combined with what DG can bring. Ive recently began runnning GW dreads and they are crazy good.

One thing i love is we do have a lot of routes to go, its just not as easy to plug and win like Castellan + whatever other stufd you want to run. I also fear Deathwatch is about to become very common, which is bad for demons :/ i like your idea with Scarabs, sadly i dont have any. I feel like you could do a tzeentch vanguard or aomething and mix and match 1k sons and demons, as long as you dont feel like you will be missing the 6" to cast.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 20:00:03


Post by: labmouse42


The 1k sons supreme command detachment is the secret sauce in that mix too. That unlocks all your 1k sons stratagems, and you still have the daemons one from your nurgle brigade.

I think your sweet spot with flamers is 6 in a squad too. That puts them just at 1CP to deep strike, and they are doing 6d6 auto hits (21 hits on average). If you manage to get a flickering flame on them, that will do some serious work. If you get a herald nearby in addition to that, you can do serious work on a ork boys squad.
I seem to face a lot of 'loota bombs', so having something that can quickly tear apart the grots is pretty critical to me.

I've been thinking about your video, and really liking the idea of using the SoT with Pox, Prescience, and vets of the long war in one round. You are looking at 40 shots, hitting on 2s, and wounding most things on 2s with a -2 AP. Even against a Knight, the bolt guns are wounding on 4s. The 4 crack missiles also wounding on 2s. If you have a prince near them, the math looks like this...

(35/36 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * 40 shots = 19.44 wounds
(35/36 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (3.5 wounds per shot) * 4 shots = 11.34 wounds

On average that's one very dead knight. Sure, it will take a lot to pull off. Two powers and a 1 CP stratagem. The look on your opponents face though....priceless.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/23 21:29:02


Post by: Zid


 labmouse42 wrote:
The 1k sons supreme command detachment is the secret sauce in that mix too. That unlocks all your 1k sons stratagems, and you still have the daemons one from your nurgle brigade.

I think your sweet spot with flamers is 6 in a squad too. That puts them just at 1CP to deep strike, and they are doing 6d6 auto hits (21 hits on average). If you manage to get a flickering flame on them, that will do some serious work. If you get a herald nearby in addition to that, you can do serious work on a ork boys squad.
I seem to face a lot of 'loota bombs', so having something that can quickly tear apart the grots is pretty critical to me.

I've been thinking about your video, and really liking the idea of using the SoT with Pox, Prescience, and vets of the long war in one round. You are looking at 40 shots, hitting on 2s, and wounding most things on 2s with a -2 AP. Even against a Knight, the bolt guns are wounding on 4s. The 4 crack missiles also wounding on 2s. If you have a prince near them, the math looks like this...

(35/36 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * 40 shots = 19.44 wounds
(35/36 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (3.5 wounds per shot) * 4 shots = 11.34 wounds

On average that's one very dead knight. Sure, it will take a lot to pull off. Two powers and a 1 CP stratagem. The look on your opponents face though....priceless.


I like the way you think! If i had 10 occults i would totally do this, lol. Marines seem to be making a huge comeback here, damn deathwatch.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/24 00:03:03


Post by: labmouse42


 Zid wrote:
I like the way you think! If i had 10 occults i would totally do this, lol. Marines seem to be making a huge comeback here, damn deathwatch.
I've been thinking of how this is going to effect the meta. A lot more bolter shots is going to have an impact on the smaller daemons. Will we move from plaguebearer carpets to smaller units of brimstone? I don't know yet. We will have to wait until it shakes out and see.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/24 06:49:37


Post by: Barnie25


Scarab Occult Terminators are quite awesome now that they have always 4 shots each at full range. I am building a list that has both board control elements as strong alpha strike capabilities with a bloodletter bomb and a Tzaangor bomb.

Is a single Lord of Change too fragile of a character to run, even with the 3++ and reduced damage by 1?

If I get turn 1, the pink horrors can, when provided with the right buffs put out an insane amount of fire power to really whittle down enemy infantry units. Turn two the bloodletters and the terminators drop, who together will probably eat most of my CP.

With the banner of blood and their ability to fight twice the bloodletters are capable of not only getting their charge off on whatever they want to charge but also killing just about any unit they come in contact with.

I can also drop the terminators and shave some points to get a knight in there or even a knight and 2 helverine armigers.

Would this work?

The list:

Spoiler:

+++ Fase 1 (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) +++

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [54 PL, 1035pts] ++

+ HQ +

Ahriman [7 PL, 131pts]: Death Hex, Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Diabolic Strength, Hellforged sword, Warptime, Wings

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Tzaangors [10 PL, 220pts]: Brayhorn, 29x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor Blades
Twistbray: Tzaangor blades

+ Elites +

Scarab Occult Terminators [22 PL, 404pts]: 2x Hellfyre Missile Rack
Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter
9x Terminator: 9x Inferno Combi-bolter, 9x Powersword

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [55 PL, 964pts] ++

+ HQ +

Changecaster [4 PL, 65pts]: Boon of Change, Flickering Flames

Lord of Change [17 PL, 280pts]: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Rod of Sorcery, The Impossible Robe, Warlord

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Shrivelling Pox

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [12 PL, 235pts]: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Horrors [12 PL, 206pts]: Instrument of Chaos, 28x Pink Horror

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms



++ Total: [109 PL, 1999pts] ++


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/24 09:09:46


Post by: p5freak


 Barnie25 wrote:

Would this work?

The list:

Spoiler:

+++ Fase 1 (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) +++

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [54 PL, 1035pts] ++

+ HQ +

Ahriman [7 PL, 131pts]: Death Hex, Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Diabolic Strength, Hellforged sword, Warptime, Wings

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Tzaangors [10 PL, 220pts]: Brayhorn, 29x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor Blades
Twistbray: Tzaangor blades

+ Elites +

Scarab Occult Terminators [22 PL, 404pts]: 2x Hellfyre Missile Rack
Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter
9x Terminator: 9x Inferno Combi-bolter, 9x Powersword

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [55 PL, 964pts] ++

+ HQ +

Changecaster [4 PL, 65pts]: Boon of Change, Flickering Flames

Lord of Change [17 PL, 280pts]: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Rod of Sorcery, The Impossible Robe, Warlord

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Shrivelling Pox

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [12 PL, 235pts]: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Horrors [12 PL, 206pts]: Instrument of Chaos, 28x Pink Horror

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms



++ Total: [109 PL, 1999pts] ++


Your anti armour is very impressive


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/24 09:12:50


Post by: Barnie25


 p5freak wrote:
 Barnie25 wrote:

Would this work?

The list:

Spoiler:

+++ Fase 1 (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) +++

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [54 PL, 1035pts] ++

+ HQ +

Ahriman [7 PL, 131pts]: Death Hex, Glamour of Tzeentch, Weaver of Fates

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Diabolic Strength, Hellforged sword, Warptime, Wings

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
Cultist Champion: Autogun

Tzaangors [10 PL, 220pts]: Brayhorn, 29x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor Blades
Twistbray: Tzaangor blades

+ Elites +

Scarab Occult Terminators [22 PL, 404pts]: 2x Hellfyre Missile Rack
Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Force stave, Inferno Combi-bolter
9x Terminator: 9x Inferno Combi-bolter, 9x Powersword

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [55 PL, 964pts] ++

+ HQ +

Changecaster [4 PL, 65pts]: Boon of Change, Flickering Flames

Lord of Change [17 PL, 280pts]: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Rod of Sorcery, The Impossible Robe, Warlord

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Shrivelling Pox

+ Troops +

Bloodletters [12 PL, 235pts]: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Horrors [12 PL, 206pts]: Instrument of Chaos, 28x Pink Horror

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms



++ Total: [109 PL, 1999pts] ++


Your anti armour is very impressive


Haha is that sarcasm or not, hard to tell on the internet xD


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/25 00:03:35


Post by: labmouse42


 Barnie25 wrote:
Is a single Lord of Change too fragile of a character to run, even with the 3++ and reduced damage by 1?
I've ran it a few times, and the answer is 'yes'.
That 3++ is really clutch to save against those heavy hits.

Do you really need those cultists? You can merge them with daemons if they share the Tzeentch keyword. If you can find a way to get a supreme command of 3 1k sons characters, you can still access the VotLW stratagem.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/25 13:10:16


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


Has anyone watched the Vigilus Ablaze reviews yet? Are the specialist strategems only for CSM?

I was hoping some Daemon detachments might get some love... but I have only heard about one for Khorne so far?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/25 19:07:57


Post by: VoidSempai


 Excommunicatus wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
My chaos daemons codex has a herald of slaanesh on p.101.


Not a mounted one.

Index Heralds can use all the powers, Relics and Traits from the Codex, if they meet the requirements for same.
.


pretty sure they can't use the codex power, as the index datasheet specify which power list they can use, and they make direct reference to the page number and powers from the index, and nothing from the codex say that the updated discipline completly replace the index discipline. As far as the game is concerned, they are 2 different discipline.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/25 20:17:02


Post by: Excommunicatus


Codex and Index both say "from the Slaanesh discipline". The general rule where something is reprinted in a Codex is that it replaces the Index. Ergo, "the Slaanesh discipline" is now to be found on p.133 of the Codex, not p.69 of the Index. Aside from Smite, none of the Index Datasheets make any reference to specific powers that I can see.

EDIT - Your point about the page numbers is a good one and not something I had previously considered. I don't know what to make of it, frankly, so I think I'm gonna kick this over to YMDC.

EDIT 2 - There's already a seven-page thread in YMDC about whether Index Librarians can use Codex powers and there is no conclusive answer, IMO.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/746996.page

To bolster my point however, I will point out that Codex: Chaos Daemons says, on page 132, that;

Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use powers from the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh discipline using the table below.

Emphasis in original.

A Herald on a Seeker Chariot and a Herald on Steed, therefore, would be "PSYKERS that can use powers from... ...the Slaanesh discipline" and would generate powers "using the table below".

EDITS 3, 4, 5 & 6 - Spelling, grammar, formatting.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/26 15:53:03


Post by: Elric Greywolf


I am flip-flopping between a second unit of Pinks in my list and a unit of 6 Flamers, so I decided to do a damage output comparison. However, damage isn’t the only consideration. Pinks fill up a Troop slot, while Flamers don’t, so I have to add the troop tax to the cost of the Flamer unit.
6 Flamers + 10 Brims = 180pts
20x Pink Horrors with Icon = 155pts
This is VERY ROUGHLY the same points cost (although 25pts is 25pts).

Both units have a similar function: clear hordes. The damage comparison will determine which one is better at it, but I’ll wait till the end to get to that.
Objectives
The Brims can sit on a backfield objective while Flamers threaten other parts of the board. But the Pinks are ObSec, so those midfield objectives they control are that much harder for the enemy to contest. Flamers+Brims can also more easily be on two objectives, since they are two units. While it’s possible for the Pinks, spreading out that much will detract from shooting effectiveness, so it’s a bad idea. I’d call that a near-tie in terms of which choice holds objectives better, with a very slight advantage to the Pinks (simply because having midfield ObSec is good).
Durability
Brims + Flamers have a total of 22 wounds and Pinks have a total of 20. The average save of Brims+Flamers is worse than the Pinks’ save. Flamers are vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Brims can hide more easily due to their small size. Pinks are vulnerable to morale, but can Blink (although it isn’t likely). I’d say the Brims+Flamers win this category. You only actually have to kill 12 in order to statistically wipe the Pinks from morale.
Flamers+Brims
97 Marine boltshots
189 guardsmen lasguns
Pink Horrors
90 Marine boltshots
120 guardsmen lasguns
Mobility
Flamers and Pinks are both going into the Warp for 1CP each; although Flamers can realistically start on the board, depending on matchup, hide (because of smaller unit size), and still get some good shooting because of 12” FLY. When they arrive, the Pinks have a slightly longer range, which helps reach multiple chaff units at once, if you want to split fire (though that’s not the best idea given their average BS). However, the Flamers have a smaller footprint, meaning it’s more difficult to screen them out.
When they are on the board, the Flamers are definitely quicker and can FLY; their smaller footprint and greater movement means that they can hit units that the enemy is trying to keep hidden. I’d definitely give this category to the Brims+Flamers.
Assault
While neither unit is good in combat, the Pinks can much more easily surround an enemy model. (Yes, I’ve had Pinks lock down vehicles before, and it’s as dumb as it sounds). Flamers present an ENORMOUS charge deterrent—IF you can charge, you WILL get flamed.
Flamers can also fall back and still shoot the next turn. I’d call this a win for the Flamers+Brims.
Shooting
Pinks get 60 shots, while Flamers get 6d6. On average, that's 30 hits for Pinks, and 21 hits for Flamers. I’ll test against a variety of targets, and assume that both units have a Changecaster and Flickerfire. I’ll even include Princely rerolls for the Pinks in parentheses. I have put Flamers in orange and Pinks in violet/pink. Standard Deviation was smaller for the Flamers. It was around 2.5 for the Flamers, and 3.6 for the Pinks.
I can do this many wounds…
Marines 8.75 6.67 (7.78)
Guardsmen 14.62 16.67 (19.5)
Cultists 17.45 20.83 (24.31)
Ork Boyz 17.5 16.67 (19.44)
Eldar Rangers 8.75 5.5 (6.5)
Altaioc Rangers 8.75 2.75 (3.25)
Plaguebearers at -1 7.82 5.93 (6.91)
Pink Horrors 8.75 12.5 (14.58)
Flamers 8.75 10 (11.67)
Vehicles 5.25 5 (5.83)
Marine Flyers 5.25 3.33 (3.89)
Eldar Flyers 7 5 (5.83)

So, overall, across a large variety of targets, the two units are pretty close. Flamers edge it out against things with good toughness and save (Marines, vehicles) and against things with negs to hit (obviously); Pinks edge it out against the softest screens (Cultists, Guardsmen, lesser Daemons).
On the tabletop, Flamers will have a better target priority, because of their 12” FLY; they aren’t tied up in combat; they deter assaults.

If you already have one unit of Pinks, then a second unit is not as useful as a unit of Flamers, in my opinion based on the stuff I learned here.
Overall, I think I’m gonna say that Brims+Flamers are the winner. So I’ll be adjusting my list accordingly.

List:
Spoiler:

Chaos Daemon Battalion (+5CP)
HQ
Parveidota Upuris, Prince of Khorne – 180
Upgrades: Wings, Axe
Vashta Nerada, Changecaster – 65
TROOPS
Bloodletters, 30x – 235
Upgrades: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
Horrors, 20 Pinks – 140
Horrors, 10 Brims – 30
ELITES
Flamers, 6x – 150

Nurgle Daemon Battalion (+5CP)
HQ
Prince of Nurgle
Upgrades: Wings, 2 Talons
WARLORD
Poxbringer – 70
TROOPS
Nurglings, 3 Swarms – 54
Nurglings, 3 Swarms – 54
Plaguebearers, 30x – 235
Upgrades: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Thousand Sons Battalion (+5CP)
HQ
Ahriman – 166
Upgrades: Disc
Ciets Cēlums, Prince of Tzeentch – 180
Upgrades: Wings, 2 Talons
Sorcerer – 106
Upgrades: Combi-flamer
Relic: Helm of the Third Eye (-1CP)
TROOPS
Chaos Cultists, 10x – 50
Chaos Cultists, 10x – 50
Chaos Cultists, 10x – 50

Reinforcement Points: 5


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/27 16:04:29


Post by: Barnie25


I would probably go for an unit of pink horrors. More wounds / models.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/27 16:51:22


Post by: Elric Greywolf


 Barnie25 wrote:
I would probably go for an unit of pink horrors. More wounds / models.


The fact that you only have to kill 12/20 Pinks before the remaining 8 flee from morale makes this a moot point. And EVEN IF they auto-pass, it's just 8 Pinks...that's 16 BS4 shots, it's hardly a threat.

Pinks are actually LESS durable than the Flamers+Brims.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/28 04:05:43


Post by: Rydria


New slaanesh daemons for AOS, so high chance they are getting ported over to 40k to, new special character herald with a daemon prince as a mount (tag team) could be interesting.

KOS is also getting buffed to the same stats as the other greater daemons, though this could end up a nerf considering how cheap they are at the moment.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/28 06:20:14


Post by: Excommunicatus


Anything worth linking at this stage?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/28 06:46:49


Post by: operkoi


 Excommunicatus wrote:
Anything worth linking at this stage?


All they've really shown so far is the book covers, some models, some endless spells, and the cover for the AOS battletome so far though they do describe one model as "an unholy tag team between a daemon prince and a herald" though I have a feeling that model will be AOS exclusive based on the aesthetic.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/28 13:06:03


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


operkoi wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Anything worth linking at this stage?


All they've really shown so far is the book covers, some models, some endless spells, and the cover for the AOS battletome so far though they do describe one model as "an unholy tag team between a daemon prince and a herald" though I have a feeling that model will be AOS exclusive based on the aesthetic.


Is there anything that is an AOS exclusive in any other armies that are Daemons? Besides the mortal stuff and redundant stuff like Hellstriders?

I am super pumped about all this new Slaanesh stuff! Seems to align with what I thought... new KOS and new heralds (since they removed our mounted versions). There's some kind of mirror thing as well that they did not name/mention... there will likely be a terrain piece for us as well that was shown off in the video. Depending on what it does it could be quite useful.

Where did you see that the KOS is getting a stats upgrade? I wouldn't mind more wounds but the KOS cost atm is amazing... so hopefully it doesn't get bumped up too much.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/28 16:03:59


Post by: Rydria


ArmchairArbiter wrote:
operkoi wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Anything worth linking at this stage?


All they've really shown so far is the book covers, some models, some endless spells, and the cover for the AOS battletome so far though they do describe one model as "an unholy tag team between a daemon prince and a herald" though I have a feeling that model will be AOS exclusive based on the aesthetic.


Is there anything that is an AOS exclusive in any other armies that are Daemons? Besides the mortal stuff and redundant stuff like Hellstriders?

I am super pumped about all this new Slaanesh stuff! Seems to align with what I thought... new KOS and new heralds (since they removed our mounted versions). There's some kind of mirror thing as well that they did not name/mention... there will likely be a terrain piece for us as well that was shown off in the video. Depending on what it does it could be quite useful.

Where did you see that the KOS is getting a stats upgrade? I wouldn't mind more wounds but the KOS cost atm is amazing... so hopefully it doesn't get bumped up too much.
All the greater daemons got a stat upgrade, when because the models are over twice as a big.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/03/31 15:05:32


Post by: Excommunicatus




*sploosh*

Based on the shot in the Hedonites of Slaanesh video showing the new KoS next to the Infernal Enrapturess, shkle appears to be around the same size as Zarakynel.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/01 13:44:08


Post by: Excommunicatus


So here's a screen-grab of the Warhammer Community video;



and here's The Violet Heart, who in terms of height is a stock Zarakynel, next to a Daemonette;



Am I taking crazy pills, or do the sizes look similar? Granted, new KoS is stood straight while Zarakynel's pose is all a bit 'done a poo' but the actual minis seem the same size to me.

Of course, this is all based on the assumption that the Infernal Enrapturess is a roughly similar size to a Daemonette.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/01 14:12:45


Post by: Zid








If ya'll like these, give my youtube a like and a sub https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLiPUI3zwSxPiHzWjFQKcNA


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/01 19:42:42


Post by: Brian888


operkoi wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Anything worth linking at this stage?


All they've really shown so far is the book covers, some models, some endless spells, and the cover for the AOS battletome so far though they do describe one model as "an unholy tag team between a daemon prince and a herald" though I have a feeling that model will be AOS exclusive based on the aesthetic.


They ported over Horticulous Slimux just fine and he's literally a dude on a giant snail with a pair of oversize garden shears, so I don't see why MasterBlaster can't come on over.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 03:25:48


Post by: Sersi


Brian888 wrote:
operkoi wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
Anything worth linking at this stage?


All they've really shown so far is the book covers, some models, some endless spells, and the cover for the AOS battletome so far though they do describe one model as "an unholy tag team between a daemon prince and a herald" though I have a feeling that model will be AOS exclusive based on the aesthetic.


They ported over Horticulous Slimux just fine and he's literally a dude on a giant snail with a pair of oversize garden shears, so I don't see why MasterBlaster can't come on over.


I'd say that to recoup the cost of the new molds, most of the new models will have to be ported over. After-all, its not like Slaanesh sells as well as the other three gods. There real question is what that mirror with the two heralds does. I'd imagine that their some kind of psychic unit.... Bah...it's GW though so it probably boosts summoning or some garbage like that.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 11:44:55


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


I'm going to be running my Slaanesh stuff along my Khorne daemons in a 1000 point battle in a week, and this is the first time I've actually gotten to field my Slaanesh stuff. I'll be running a Daemon Prince(ss) and a foot Herald as HQs, but what psychic powers should I be running (my other army is Black Templars, so this whole witchery thing is a bit new to me...)? Delightful Agonies seems the most consistently useful, but what other power do I take? Symphony of Pain seems like the other best option, am I missing something?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 12:41:29


Post by: Excommunicatus


Cacophonic Choir can be pretty tasty, but you kinda have to build to it. Night Lords, Raptors, Zarakynel, another Psyker casting Phantasmagoria etc. Anything that debuffs Ld.

I don't care for Delightful Agonies, honestly. A 6++ save isn't much, IMO. I routinely run six Heralds and never use it.

In my experience, Symphony of Pain is the most useful, 'cause it helps your fragile wee beasties not die at the drop of a hat.

Then Hysterical Frenzy.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 14:02:17


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


I really like the look of Hysterical Frenzy, but why would the enemy remain in combat with me when I have it? All they have to do is back out and it does nothing, no?

Cacophonic Choir might actually be pretty good against screens though. One of my opponents plays Orks, so being able to sweep aside a bunch of Gretchin blocking my charge options might be good.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 14:06:53


Post by: Azuza001


If your running fiends of slaanesh then the enemy cant escape. Also if you surround the enemy no escape for them!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 14:08:26


Post by: Excommunicatus


If they can Fall Back, yeah.

Fiends stop them being able to do that unless the unit that wants to Fall Back can FLY.

Which means you need to keep your Fiends alive, so you cast SoP on the unit you're charging T2, then use HF T3 on whichever unit you charged in alongside your Fiends..


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 14:08:26


Post by: small_gods


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I really like the look of Hysterical Frenzy, but why would the enemy remain in combat with me when I have it? All they have to do is back out and it does nothing, no?

Cacophonic Choir might actually be pretty good against screens though. One of my opponents plays Orks, so being able to sweep aside a bunch of Gretchin blocking my charge options might be good.


You use the old 'tri touch' technique with your deamonettes or seekers. Basically touch one model on three sides (that cannot fly) and they are unable to fall out of combat at all. I often position to do this on a unit that I am not attacking (so it isn't taken out as a casualty) and use my consolodate to get in close enough to attack in the next psychic phase.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 17:13:43


Post by: gruyere


Hey, I currently have a 1250 pt list that I am working on and this is the core that I am somewhat happy with (not sure if theres something I should change). This amounts to 1016 points, so I have 234 pts to play with

Daemons Battalion
HQ
Poxbringer
Changecaster

Troops
20x Pinks w/ Icon
30x PBs w/ Icon, Instrument

Supreme Command 1k Sons
HQ
Ahriman
DPoT w/ Wings
DPoT w/ Wings, Helm, High Magister

I am currently debating between adding a unit of 30x letters or added 1 DPoK w/ Skullreaver and a unit of nurglings. Both options cost the same amount, I am just not sure what my list is missing. Having 3 DPs is nice, but IDK if I will have enough troops. Having letters is nice, but the CP cost is pretty brutal. Any suggestions on what I should do between these? Or if there would be another better option? Thanks


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 18:34:12


Post by: Elric Greywolf


gruyere wrote:
Hey, I currently have a 1250 pt list that I am working on and this is the core that I am somewhat happy with (not sure if theres something I should change). This amounts to 1016 points, so I have 234 pts to play with

Daemons Battalion
HQ
Poxbringer
Changecaster

Troops
20x Pinks w/ Icon
30x PBs w/ Icon, Instrument

Supreme Command 1k Sons
HQ
Ahriman
DPoT w/ Wings
DPoT w/ Wings, Helm, High Magister

I am currently debating between adding a unit of 30x letters or added 1 DPoK w/ Skullreaver and a unit of nurglings. Both options cost the same amount, I am just not sure what my list is missing. Having 3 DPs is nice, but IDK if I will have enough troops. Having letters is nice, but the CP cost is pretty brutal. Any suggestions on what I should do between these? Or if there would be another better option? Thanks

You'll find that, perhaps counter-intuitively, the Prince and Nurglings are more durable than the Bloodletters. This is due mainly to the morale phase--only 17 need to die to wipe the whole unit in the morale phase, unless you Blink (which will happen roughly once per game considering all the morales you'll have to take on a variety of your units).
The Prince has protection and the Nurglings are weirdly durable to small-arms fire.

Skullreaver Prince is really good against Titanics. If your opponent doesn't have Titanics, he's still decent with the basic axe, but not spectacular. Considering you're going to be playing at low points, consider giving him talons instead, so he's a blending machine. Nine S8 attacks will do work. He'll be especially good at killing Primaris (you'll kill roughly 5 models per fight with the talons) and Characters.

Note that, if you have 234pts left, you CANNOT afford the 235pts of a full Letter Bomb. You'll have to settle for 29 of them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 18:55:02


Post by: gruyere


 Elric Greywolf wrote:

You'll find that, perhaps counter-intuitively, the Prince and Nurglings are more durable than the Bloodletters. This is due mainly to the morale phase--only 17 need to die to wipe the whole unit in the morale phase, unless you Blink (which will happen roughly once per game considering all the morales you'll have to take on a variety of your units).
The Prince has protection and the Nurglings are weirdly durable to small-arms fire.

Skullreaver Prince is really good against Titanics. If your opponent doesn't have Titanics, he's still decent with the basic axe, but not spectacular. Considering you're going to be playing at low points, consider giving him talons instead, so he's a blending machine. Nine S8 attacks will do work. He'll be especially good at killing Primaris (you'll kill roughly 5 models per fight with the talons) and Characters.

Note that, if you have 234pts left, you CANNOT afford the 235pts of a full Letter Bomb. You'll have to settle for 29 of them.


Thanks for the reply! And yeah, I figured I'd have to cut one of the letters but thats not a huge deal. That being said, I am leaning towards the prince due to what you mentioned. Do you think it would be worth it to switch off of a Khorne DP if I am not taking skullreaver? Nurgle DPs are nice and tanky, a DPoT could give me more psychic phase dominance and could have the impossible robe and be unkillable. I think DPoK might be best since 9 S8 attacks sounds really spicy (maybe I could diabolic strength to get 10 S10 hell yeah), but a tankier prince is definitely also appealing


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 19:47:10


Post by: JNAProductions


Elric, how do you get 9 Attacks on the Dual-Talon Khorne prince?

4 Base, +1 for Khorne, +3 for Dual Talons only gets me to 8.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 19:48:57


Post by: topaxygouroun i


 JNAProductions wrote:
Elric, how do you get 9 Attacks on the Dual-Talon Khorne prince?

4 Base, +1 for Khorne, +3 for Dual Talons only gets me to 8.


Charge bonus of the loci perhaps?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 19:55:34


Post by: JNAProductions


topaxygouroun i wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Elric, how do you get 9 Attacks on the Dual-Talon Khorne prince?

4 Base, +1 for Khorne, +3 for Dual Talons only gets me to 8.


Charge bonus of the loci perhaps?


Loci gives reroll charges, not +1 Attack.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 19:56:37


Post by: gruyere


 JNAProductions wrote:
Elric, how do you get 9 Attacks on the Dual-Talon Khorne prince?

4 Base, +1 for Khorne, +3 for Dual Talons only gets me to 8.


Unstoppable ferocity on the charge +1 attack


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 19:59:37


Post by: JNAProductions


gruyere wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Elric, how do you get 9 Attacks on the Dual-Talon Khorne prince?

4 Base, +1 for Khorne, +3 for Dual Talons only gets me to 8.


Unstoppable ferocity on the charge +1 attack


Ah, that's it! Okay, I knew I was missing something.

Thanks, just wanted to make sure.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 20:42:15


Post by: Elric Greywolf


 JNAProductions wrote:
gruyere wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Elric, how do you get 9 Attacks on the Dual-Talon Khorne prince?

4 Base, +1 for Khorne, +3 for Dual Talons only gets me to 8.


Unstoppable ferocity on the charge +1 attack


Ah, that's it! Okay, I knew I was missing something.

Thanks, just wanted to make sure.

9A at S8 is pretty beefy...but the craziest amount of attacks goes to the new Flawless Host Slaaneshi Warlord Prince with Talons and Elixir. I know I know this is a Daemons thread...but we can ally these guys in!
Start with 7 base for 2 talons. Elixer adds 1 = 8A and adds 1S for S8. Flawless Host Trait is "Hits of 6+ get a bonus attack." (This stacks with DttFE!) Flawless Host Warlord is "If you generate an extra attack for your chapter tactic, it's actually 3 extra now." Give the Prince Prescience so this triggers on 5s.

Now, on average, you have FOURTEEN attacks against anything, at S8 AP-2 D2, or SIXTEEN against Imperium.

My only complaint is that he's still T6 3+ 5++ booooo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gruyere wrote:

Thanks for the reply! And yeah, I figured I'd have to cut one of the letters but thats not a huge deal. That being said, I am leaning towards the prince due to what you mentioned. Do you think it would be worth it to switch off of a Khorne DP if I am not taking skullreaver? Nurgle DPs are nice and tanky, a DPoT could give me more psychic phase dominance and could have the impossible robe and be unkillable. I think DPoK might be best since 9 S8 attacks sounds really spicy (maybe I could diabolic strength to get 10 S10 hell yeah), but a tankier prince is definitely also appealing


Is your Khorne Prince a DAEMON or a HERETIC? Bc Diabolic Strength can only be cast on HERETICS. You can't have Skullreaver and Diabolic Strength. You COULD mix a Heretic Khorne Prince into a pure Khorne Detachment, but not into a detachment that has any other daemons (like Nurglings). You could also put him into the TSons Detachment...but their extra 6" for psychic is actually really helpful, for both damage and buffs--I wouldn't want to lose it.
Most importantly, HERETIC Princes can't have Warp Surge, so they are stuck at a 5++.
Oh and speaking of special Daemon stuff, for either weapon option on your Khorne Prince, remember that you can always sub in the relic armour for a nice 4++. I use it on my Skullreaver Prince when the enemy doesn't have a Titanic unit.

That being said, I've had some good success with a Nurgle Prince Warlord. Give him the -1 to hit trait. Most of the time anything further away than 7" will be closer to something else of yours anyhow, so his trait will usually be good. Stack it with Miasma and he gets really nasty in CC.
My last game he went in against Girlyman, who was then hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. HAH. With Warp Surge I survived his swings, and managed to kill him off (he already had some wounds from Bloodletters).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/03 21:13:54


Post by: gruyere


 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Is your Khorne Prince a DAEMON or a HERETIC? Bc Diabolic Strength can only be cast on HERETICS. You can't have Skullreaver and Diabolic Strength. You COULD mix a Heretic Khorne Prince into a pure Khorne Detachment, but not into a detachment that has any other daemons (like Nurglings). You could also put him into the TSons Detachment...but their extra 6" for psychic is actually really helpful, for both damage and buffs--I wouldn't want to lose it.
Most importantly, HERETIC Princes can't have Warp Surge, so they are stuck at a 5++.
Oh and speaking of special Daemon stuff, for either weapon option on your Khorne Prince, remember that you can always sub in the relic armour for a nice 4++. I use it on my Skullreaver Prince when the enemy doesn't have a Titanic unit.

That being said, I've had some good success with a Nurgle Prince Warlord. Give him the -1 to hit trait. Most of the time anything further away than 7" will be closer to something else of yours anyhow, so his trait will usually be good. Stack it with Miasma and he gets really nasty in CC.
My last game he went in against Girlyman, who was then hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. HAH. With Warp Surge I survived his swings, and managed to kill him off (he already had some wounds from Bloodletters).


Oh gak, I almost totally cheated cuz i missed that I cant cast diabolic on the Khorne prince! Thanks for the heads up. And true, I'll consider the Khorne DP or the Nurgle one! I also looked at a Slaanesh DP with Soulstealer, i'll just do some math to figure out what I want. I do like the sound of Armour of Scorn though!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/05 20:15:21


Post by: gruyere


My bad on double posting, but holy jesus is this Flawless Host DP insane. Definitely going with this. For the cost of 1 cp (since taking anything else flawless host is pretty miserable..., unless im missing something cheap), you get a turbo DP. As Elric said, 14 attacks average, but you can also cast all Dark Hereticus powers on him. Warptime, Presience, Diabolic Strength... good lord. It might be too much investment, and runs the risk of losing my warlord since hes gonna be a very aggressive unit, but this is an insane prince to slingshot in. If all those buffs go off (yeah i know, perfect world), having base 9 attacks that have a chance to explode at S10 AP -2 D2 seems completely bananas. The -1 CP would have been taking to give my KDP a skullreaver/armour of scorn anyway, the only big problem with my list is this DP will die real quick if I slingshot him in, but so will everything else he touches so seems worth it to me.

List is looking like this now:
1250/1250 PTS
Battalion Daemons
HQ
Poxbringer
Changecaster

Troops
3x Nurglings
30x Plaguebearers - Icon, Instrument
20x Pink Horrors - Icon

Supreme Command 1k Sons
HQ
Ahriman
DPoT - 2x Talons, Wings
DPoT - 2x Talons, Wings

Aux Support CSM
Legion - Flawless Host
DPoS - 2x Talons, Wings, Intoxicating Elixir, Warlord, Ultimate Confidence


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/06 00:07:27


Post by: lindsay40k


...reading @gruyere’s post, I’ve just clicked with a use for Fallen. Specifically, Cypher.

Make him your Warlord in Maelstrom.

He doesn’t get a Trait, but you can buy a Trait or two via Specialist Formations. Now, if you draw Priority Orders, he can ride in a Rhino to have a crack at them - and it doesn’t matter if he has to commit suicide by firebase; roll a 2+ (that you can CRR) and he doesn’t count as dead dead, no matter how much of a beating he took. That right there denies slay the Warlord & kingslayer, and potentially other TO’s your opponent was gunning for.

It’s gimmicky, but if you were already intending to take your Warlord from a Specialist Detachment, think of it as paying 1.17CP at the start of the game to make your own Warlord effectively disposable. If your opponent draws Kingslayer, you’ve effectively vetoed 2-4 VP’s. I’ve had games that close.

Shame GW are shy about giving Fallen an expanded armoury beyond metal boxes and an incompetent librarian. Still, there’s one gimmick that Fallen fans can try to pull off.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/11 11:49:36


Post by: blood reaper


How effective are large units (around 6) of Bloodcrushers? Are they any good with support from a Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/11 12:32:07


Post by: blackmage


no, bloodletters do anything better and they cost less and better point wise.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/11 15:59:16


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


 blackmage wrote:
no, bloodletters do anything better and they cost less and better point wise.


Can the same be said for Seekers of Slaanesh? Their speed is a difference I suppose... not sure how fast Bloodcrushers are. 14" with the Seekers in MSU is a decent distraction for everything coming up behind it but I am not sure.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/11 16:26:13


Post by: dan2026


Tired of Greater Daemons being under represented on the table, with the new KOS out soon I am planning a mad list of taking as many Greater Daemons as I can. From all the four Gods.

Probably absurd and stupid but damn it I'm doing it anyway.
Any advice other than 'don' t do it you lunatic' is appreciated.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/11 16:27:13


Post by: JNAProductions


 dan2026 wrote:
Tired of Greater Daemons being under represented on the table, with the new KOS out soon I am planning a mad list of taking as many Greater Daemons as I can. From all the four Gods.

Probably absurd and stupid but damn it I'm doing it anyway.
Any advice other than 'don' t do it you lunatic' is appreciated.


Try to include as many other big things as possible-target saturation helps.

With that being said, a couple of Heralds wouldn't go amiss either. Especially a Sloppity Bilepiper for the GUOs-advance and charge is nice.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/11 18:51:01


Post by: blackmage


ArmchairArbiter wrote:
 blackmage wrote:
no, bloodletters do anything better and they cost less and better point wise.


Can the same be said for Seekers of Slaanesh? Their speed is a difference I suppose... not sure how fast Bloodcrushers are. 14" with the Seekers in MSU is a decent distraction for everything coming up behind it but I am not sure.

facts are... bl charge 3d6+1 (rerolling charges in pure K detachament), just 20 of them deliver 41 hits at 2+ str 5 and ap-3, they cost only 7pts, they can attacck twice, right now nothing is really better than bloodletters, seekers cost too much and risk them in Ds with a 8" charge... well.... they are glasscannons if they dont charge they are dead, 10 of them +icon and instrument cost slighty more than 20 letters, seekers can be good to play in thematic mono slaanesh armies, where you throw tons of fast and hard hitting bodies at your opponent, letters are more tactical flexible. Playing demons at high level since 1 year and half, i would love use slaanesh units but they need some more love from Gw


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 00:37:54


Post by: lindsay40k


 dan2026 wrote:
Tired of Greater Daemons being under represented on the table, with the new KOS out soon I am planning a mad list of taking as many Greater Daemons as I can. From all the four Gods.

Probably absurd and stupid but damn it I'm doing it anyway.
Any advice other than 'don' t do it you lunatic' is appreciated.


Might be worth trying a bunch of Fiends? I use them with Daemon Engines and it’s just hilarious when a limping tank or medium sized squad isn’t allowed to run away from a furious Defiler. They’ll want a Herald that can avoid getting nuked if you want them to charge on turn one, though.

GUOs will probably like being in a Nurgling-Heavy Battalion, especially if they’re with a bilepiper.

For horde clearance, Pink Horrors can get a bunch of work done the turn before the winged stuff reaches enemy lines?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 01:35:20


Post by: drakerocket


I am definitely curious to see when GW is going to show the new KoS stats. If that shield takes them to a 4++ and they move up to T8, they could be a serious threat if the points increase isn't too nuts.

Slaanesh really needs a buff to their spell list though v.v


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 01:50:02


Post by: JNAProductions


drakerocket wrote:
I am definitely curious to see when GW is going to show the new KoS stats. If that shield takes them to a 4++ and they move up to T8, they could be a serious threat if the points increase isn't too nuts.

Slaanesh really needs a buff to their spell list though v.v


A GUO is T7. If a KoS is T8, I will flip my gourd.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 01:55:07


Post by: drakerocket


Apologies, I meant T7! Ala LoC


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 07:59:28


Post by: WisdomLS


 dan2026 wrote:
Tired of Greater Daemons being under represented on the table, with the new KOS out soon I am planning a mad list of taking as many Greater Daemons as I can. From all the four Gods.

Probably absurd and stupid but damn it I'm doing it anyway.
Any advice other than 'don' t do it you lunatic' is appreciated.



It will need to be a really in your face list to force your opponent to make mistakes in target priority.

Three detachments, four gods mean at least one mixed detachment, likely more and I don't think your going to have points for lots of troops.

I don't know how close this is in points but what about the following?

Khorne Supreme command

2 Blood Thirsters
1 Daemon Prince with relic axe

These get the Khorne Bonus which is one of the good ones and will beat down most big stuff.

Slannesh Vanguard

Keeper Of Secrets
3 single Fiends

This one gets the Slannesh bonuses which is great and the fiends can lock stuff in combat protecting your big monsters, they are easy kills as single models but should be easy to hide.

Mixed Battalion

Great Unclean One
Lord Of Change
3x Nurgling Units

This one is just here to provide CP and objective holding units, the GUO doesn't really fit with the in their face nature of the list, if you didn't want all four greaters then swapping him out would be good.

Other things that would work well in the list would be soul grinders and the various chariots, anything that doesn't die to anti infantry firepower really as you need to saturate big targets.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 11:22:41


Post by: dan2026


Thanks that looks great.
It's hard to do points at the moment without knowing how many the new Keeper will be.

Ran some point and at the moment it comes out about 1700.
Although that undoubtedly will go up.

What are people's thoughts on regular Lord of Change vs Kairos?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 12:14:10


Post by: slave.entity


 dan2026 wrote:
Thanks that looks great.
It's hard to do points at the moment without knowing how many the new Keeper will be.

Ran some point and at the moment it comes out about 1700.
Although that undoubtedly will go up.

What are people's thoughts on regular Lord of Change vs Kairos?


Before the points drops people generally seemed to prefer the Lord of Change since he can take an Impossible Robe for a 3++. But with the base LoC at 270pts and Kairos at 285pts, paying an extra 15 points for 1 extra boosted cast/deny doesn't seem too bad, especially with the 36" smite that does D6 mortal wounds on a roll of 9+. Kairos also hits harder in close combat, though his attacks degrade faster than the LoC's.

I'd take an LoC with Impossible Robe if that was my only large threat on the table. But if there are a bunch of other greater daemons on the table attracting fire, Kairos might be a worthwhile pick. Basically Kairos is a significantly better caster while the LoC is slightly better at being a big scary monster, and more durable if he has the robe.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 18:17:47


Post by: dan2026


 slave.entity wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
Thanks that looks great.
It's hard to do points at the moment without knowing how many the new Keeper will be.

Ran some point and at the moment it comes out about 1700.
Although that undoubtedly will go up.

What are people's thoughts on regular Lord of Change vs Kairos?


Before the points drops people generally seemed to prefer the Lord of Change since he can take an Impossible Robe for a 3++. But with the base LoC at 270pts and Kairos at 285pts, paying an extra 15 points for 1 extra boosted cast/deny doesn't seem too bad, especially with the 36" smite that does D6 mortal wounds on a roll of 9+. Kairos also hits harder in close combat, though his attacks degrade faster than the LoC's.

I'd take an LoC with Impossible Robe if that was my only large threat on the table. But if there are a bunch of other greater daemons on the table attracting fire, Kairos might be a worthwhile pick. Basically Kairos is a significantly better caster while the LoC is slightly better at being a big scary monster, and more durable if he has the robe.

I also like that Kairos give free command points. Granted you might be unlucky and only get one. But still thats one more than you would have.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 19:15:22


Post by: drakerocket


Correct me if I'm wrong but warp surge can't stack with the robe anymore yeah? Almost feels like if you have no other single big target might as well just give that to kairos and he'll be even defense-wise.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 19:54:06


Post by: dan2026


Thanks guys. Last question I promise.
What are people's thoughts on Skarbrand?

He can't fly which sucks but if he is deep striking in it might not matter as much. And some of his stats do go up as he takes damage which is interesting.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/12 21:41:04


Post by: blackmage


 dan2026 wrote:
Thanks guys. Last question I promise.
What are people's thoughts on Skarbrand?

He can't fly which sucks but if he is deep striking in it might not matter as much. And some of his stats do go up as he takes damage which is interesting.

is a tactical piece, he can seriously hinder enemy (fall back become difficult), i tried it in a list with 120 Pb's 25 letters a nurgle DP spolipox sloppity and a tree, have 120 fearless Pb's is a thing, it can be killed yes but all the firepower on him mean my Pb's survive and i win objective/attriction war.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/13 19:36:35


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Any tips on a good way to clear out chaff on turn 1? I know deep striking Horrors do a good job, but not until turn 2. Allied chaingun Havocs?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/14 19:22:17


Post by: Sokhar


Ally Thousand Sons (already a good idea because of Ahriman and DP's) for a Tzaangor bomb.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/14 19:43:07


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Hm, just checking, but I could run a detachment with a Lord Discordant, some allied TSons and some Horrors and only lose out on Legion Traits/Loci, right? I'd still be able to get stratagems and such as long as everyone is Tzeench,?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/14 20:05:18


Post by: JNAProductions


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hm, just checking, but I could run a detachment with a Lord Discordant, some allied TSons and some Horrors and only lose out on Legion Traits/Loci, right? I'd still be able to get stratagems and such as long as everyone is Tzeench,?


That detachment, seeing as it's not pure CSM, TS, or Daemons, would not unlock ANYTHING in terms of strats.

You can, however, USE Stratagems on them just fine.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/14 21:57:05


Post by: lindsay40k


 JNAProductions wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Hm, just checking, but I could run a detachment with a Lord Discordant, some allied TSons and some Horrors and only lose out on Legion Traits/Loci, right? I'd still be able to get stratagems and such as long as everyone is Tzeench,?


That detachment, seeing as it's not pure CSM, TS, or Daemons, would not unlock ANYTHING in terms of strats.

You can, however, USE Stratagems on them just fine.


There are two things it would unlock - if the Warlord was chosen from it, their traits and your free Relic would be based on them. Still have to take a CSM or TS Detachment to get their Strats, though.

Losing out on Legion traits isn’t fun for a TS character - that casting range boost can have profound benefits. Longer range on Warptime, Death Hex, and even Smite can completely change how you use them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/14 23:27:45


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Follow-up question, since the Lord Discordant has <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>, could I make him <Thousand Sons> and <Tzeench> and have him not break the strats and trait if everything else is from the Thousand Sons book? Comboing a Tzaangor bomb with a warptimed Lord Discordant shuffling across the board seems like some solid turn 1 pressure, which would let my other big gribblies advance up the board without being murdered to death and would clear out chaff for some T2 letterbombing.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/14 23:59:25


Post by: JNAProductions


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Follow-up question, since the Lord Discordant has <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>, could I make him <Thousand Sons> and <Tzeench> and have him not break the strats and trait if everything else is from the Thousand Sons book? Comboing a Tzaangor bomb with a warptimed Lord Discordant shuffling across the board seems like some solid turn 1 pressure, which would let my other big gribblies advance up the board without being murdered to death and would clear out chaff for some T2 letterbombing.


Tzeentch, yes.

Thousand Sons, no. There's a restriction (either in the CSM book or an FAQ) saying that Thousand Sons is NOT a valid replacement for <LEGION>.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/15 00:37:52


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


And I assume Tzeench would break the Legion bonus and stratagem access, since it's reliant on the <Thousand Sons> trait, right?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/15 00:41:36


Post by: JNAProductions


Correct.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/19 23:34:49


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I really, really hope sometime they put daemons in Kill Team. I just don't understand why they were left out.

On another note, what's the best way to put and use Be'lakor in one's army? He's a pretty tough model and I'd love to see him fight alongside my Khorne and Tzeentch daemons, but I'd don't want to annihilate any of the armies' buffs/characteristics. I could make him an auxiliary, but that would take away a command point.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/19 23:59:24


Post by: JNAProductions


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really, really hope sometime they put daemons in Kill Team. I just don't understand why they were left out.

On another note, what's the best way to put and use Be'lakor in one's army? He's a pretty tough model and I'd love to see him fight alongside my Khorne and Tzeentch daemons, but I'd don't want to annihilate any of the armies' buffs/characteristics. I could make him an auxiliary, but that would take away a command point.


Stick him in a Nurgle of Tzeentch detachment. The only thing you lose is your Locus, and those Loci ain't the best.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/22 16:44:59


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


I know it is day 1 of the new preview but can anyone with past experience with Daemon updates tell me what I can expect to be translated over to 40k if any of it? It looks like they've changed the hysterical frenzy power to be the pavane of slaanesh? And added some additional Loci/aura abilities?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 16:59:40


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


New Slaanesh datasheets are up! Feel free to discuss. I am super impressed so far and this is mainly the "what is new" section. Doesn't include the terrain piece and any other changes that will be ported over from AOS (though that is unlikely).

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/23/slaanesh-the-new-datasheets/


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 17:18:58


Post by: Galas


8d3 F5, -1 AP ,1 Damage hits hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's + 8 F8 -3Ap, +3 Damage hits hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's in a 9" move character with less than 10 wounds.

Thats nasty.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 17:25:49


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


 Galas wrote:
8d3 F5, -1 AP ,1 Damage hits hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's + 8 F8 -3Ap, +3 Damage hits hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's in a 9" move character with less than 10 wounds.

Thats nasty.


It is... especially since he has no use (unless you want to be... excessive! ) for the usual DP warlord trait, which is extra attacks. Put Celerity on him/her/it/them (Syll) and you're moving a base 12", as fast as our chariots and enough to kind of keep up with fiends/seekers.

Unless it has a forced warlord trait I suppose... :( as some named characters do.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 19:15:58


Post by: slave.entity


So Syll'Esske hits harder than just about any DP in any situation (exception is Skullreaver vs titanic). 8x S8 flat 3 attacks followed by 8-24x S5 attacks is bananas. Should give Slaanesh daemons a nice boost.

I'm not sure how well he fits into the current competitive daemons meta though. Yes he hits a lot harder than a DP but he is also a little squishier, and can only achieve maximum value if he can get into combat with 2 different units. That last part would be pretty straightforward for a competitive player to counter: just keep your dudes spaced out so he doesn't get to swing a second time. In that situation, he'd delete a single hard target, or he'd clear a single screen, then get blown up the next turn, which is roughly what a regular DP will accomplish for (probably?) less points.

So the main advantage seems to be the flexibility afforded by his awesome screen-clearing potential, his massive number of S8 flat 3 attacks, and the 2-for-1 herald/DP auras in a single unit which saves an HQ slot.

What do you guys think?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 19:23:02


Post by: Galas


Why he needs to attack two units? It does not say he needs to attack two DIFFERENT units.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 19:24:24


Post by: Sterling191


They *can* target separately, but dont have to.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 19:31:54


Post by: slave.entity


That's how he achieves maximum value. He wants to swing at a blob of chaff and a high toughness hard target in one combat phase.

If he only swings at one of those things in a single round of combat, then he's doing roughly the same thing that a daemon prince does, albeit slightly better.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 20:02:08


Post by: KingCorpus


The Prince is nice, it's a great hammer. Easily taking the spot of my 2nd Daemon Prince and filling out my list as a 4th herald as well.

The sleepers are the other things, like that psychic buffer/denier and it takes MW's on 2's That thing is an automatic MW sponge, and can constantly cast -1 Ldrship bubble, so its 3d6 holding you in combat is almost always guaranteed. Phenominal stuff and I'm glad I play Slaanesh daemons.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 20:15:54


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


The extra good thing is that unlike Fiends, it can hold units that can fly in place. So now we have multiple ways to keep units stuck in combat.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 21:19:27


Post by: lindsay40k


Gift of Power looks good. Epitome running forwards T1 will put out solid DTW coverage, has a 17% chance of D6 Smite, doesn’t care about Perils, and has a situational tarpit ability. Hopefully Delightful Agonies will get fixed. Nice synergy with Enrapturess, too.

Syll’eske looks amazing. 16 attacks?!? Except it’s not 16, it’s more like 24. Characters with modest screens will fear them. M9 is pretty good on a W9 monster.

New KoS is pretty much what we expected. Access to shield and even more healing, and as fast as a Fiend... could be pretty epic.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 21:42:40


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


What is DTW?

Nevermind i figured it out


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 22:22:28


Post by: warmaster21


+2 speed and no -Strength on keeper of secrets damage chart is going to be nice.

though im curious to see how much these buffs are going to cost us in points.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 22:26:43


Post by: Rydria


I'll be honest keeper of secrets being good depends 100% on what the shield or the whip does, because no matter how choppy it is, it will just get shot off the table with only having a 5++ before it can ever dream of reaching melee.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 22:31:31


Post by: warmaster21


i hope the whip is good, since most of my third party KOS are armed with whips.

i wouldnt be surprised if the shield ended up something like +1 invulnerable saves in melee



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 22:58:03


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


 warmaster21 wrote:
i hope the whip is good, since most of my third party KOS are armed with whips.

i wouldnt be surprised if the shield ended up something like +1 invulnerable saves in melee



Do you hope to whip it? And whip it good?

Couldn’t help myself, sorry.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/23 23:16:32


Post by: Excommunicatus


Makes my Zarakynel mini a whole lot more useable.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 01:30:16


Post by: JakeSiren


Man, I'm pumped about Epitome. I have plans to kill some fliers with it!

Any flier without a hover style rule will die. Get Epitome within 6", have a unit get into combat with the flier - either directly by charging or indirectly by charging into another unit and piling into it. Then, when it fails morale, it dies due to not moving its minimum distance. Makes for an easy kill.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 02:58:43


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


Is that even a thing? What flyer doesn’t have a hover mode that is actually used?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 03:12:38


Post by: lindsay40k


ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Is that even a thing? What flyer doesn’t have a hover mode that is actually used?

A ruling on Skarbrand confirmed that ‘die if you don’t move’ + ‘not allowed to fall back’ = death.

It’s buried in our Index FAQ, along with a spectacularly important revised ruling on Warptime that’s not been corrected in the CSM 8.2.0 Codex. I dunno if this is a general issue, or if Chaos has a particular problem with bad collating & compiling; if anyone’s got any cause to email the FAQs team, it’s probably worth a mention.

As for which aircraft are susceptible - all three of the Craftworld plastic planes lack hover mode. So, not exactly an empty niche.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 03:25:24


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


I believed you on the ruling. Makes total sense. Just didn’t think any plane lacked a hover capability. Happy to be wrong! Haha!

And it’s Eldar, even better.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 04:08:59


Post by: JakeSiren


Necrons also fall into that category. I believe that Orks do as well.

Even if the opponent flier can hover it allows you the opportunity to sink in more of your units into it.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 11:56:59


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Eagerly anticipating the ponts cost of the Keeper of Secrets. Knowing GW it will have gone up to the same level as the other Greater Daemons, which would be a shame, but oh well. Sure, it's vulnerabtle to being shot, which is why you take other big targets as well for saturation.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 12:11:11


Post by: tneva82


JakeSiren wrote:
Man, I'm pumped about Epitome. I have plans to kill some fliers with it!

Any flier without a hover style rule will die. Get Epitome within 6", have a unit get into combat with the flier - either directly by charging or indirectly by charging into another unit and piling into it. Then, when it fails morale, it dies due to not moving its minimum distance. Makes for an easy kill.


Does slaanesh have much LD debuffs to make it so easy? Necron flyers have LD10 so 1/12 chance of failing it without debuffs.

Plus what units with fly slaanesh has to even charge into flyer?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 12:14:35


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


tneva82 wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
Man, I'm pumped about Epitome. I have plans to kill some fliers with it!

Any flier without a hover style rule will die. Get Epitome within 6", have a unit get into combat with the flier - either directly by charging or indirectly by charging into another unit and piling into it. Then, when it fails morale, it dies due to not moving its minimum distance. Makes for an easy kill.


Does slaanesh have much LD debuffs to make it so easy? Necron flyers have LD10 so 1/12 chance of failing it without debuffs.

Plus what units with fly slaanesh has to even charge into flyer?


If they ever fix the FW models points, Zarak has a built in -2 LD buff. We also have a psychic power that is a -1 LD debuff. It'll mainly be an annoyance for everything and its mother that has a LD of 7 and 8.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 12:44:54


Post by: JakeSiren


tneva82 wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
Man, I'm pumped about Epitome. I have plans to kill some fliers with it!

Any flier without a hover style rule will die. Get Epitome within 6", have a unit get into combat with the flier - either directly by charging or indirectly by charging into another unit and piling into it. Then, when it fails morale, it dies due to not moving its minimum distance. Makes for an easy kill.


Does slaanesh have much LD debuffs to make it so easy? Necron flyers have LD10 so 1/12 chance of failing it without debuffs.

Plus what units with fly slaanesh has to even charge into flyer?


Necrons need to roll lower than 10 on 3d6 which is a ~37.5% chance of passing. Debuffing them by even 1 puts it to ~26% of escaping, or the other way, a ~74% chance of being destroyed!

In terms of making it into combat with the flier, you don't need to change it. You can string out a unit of Daemonettes and use pile in / consolidate to get within 1" of enemy fliers.

*Edit*
In terms of additional units that can debuff leadership there is:
Be'lakor (12" bubble)
Nurgle Artefact: The Entropic Knell (7" bubble)
Phantasmagoria (12" bubble)

If you stacked these three together a leadership 10 model would only have a ~9.26% chance of escaping, anything leadership 7 would effectively be stuck as they only have a ~0.46% chance to escape (3 1's)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 13:47:48


Post by: Excommunicatus


Heretic Astartes with the Night Lord trait and/or Heretic Astartes Raptors also have Ld debuffs.

Pretty sure Furies can FLY and can now, for some reason, be SLAANESH. No idea if you could tar-pit a Flyer with them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 14:07:13


Post by: Sokhar


So the new Prince + Herald combo is insane, right? 8 attacks with that axe, plus 8 attacks with the whip that turn into D3 swings each (rolling these attacks is going to be annoying) for a possible 32 attack rolls per Fight Phase already seems silly. But since some people were talking about using the Slaanesh warlord trait to boost it's movement up to 12" like a flying DP, I thought about looking at other options.

Murderdance adds +D3 to the warlord's attack characteristic on a turn in which they charge....so on average you're looking at +2 axe swings and +4 whip attacks, but it could be anything from 1-3 axe swings and 1-9 whip attacks. Interesting.

Fatal Caress causes wound rolls of 6+ to inflict a mortal wound in addition to your damage. If the Prince averages 24 attacks without other boosts, that's almost 4 mortal wounds per Fight Phase.

and then we dip into Stratagems....

Locus of Grace. For 1 command point, every friendly Slaanesh Daemon within 6" of the chosen character gets to make an additional attack every time it rolls a 6+ to wound. And given the ruling on Mortarion with Silence, each time you proc that effect with the whips, it turns into another D3 attacks. So without other boosts, this would look to have your Combo Prince swinging about 10 times with the axe, and about 21 times with the whip per Fight Phase, on average.

Assuming the Combo doesn't have an assigned warlord trait and you can combine Murderdance with the stratagem, The Lord of the Dance (TM) should average about 11.5 axe swings and around 27 whip attacks per turn. I think the Chainlord and Flawless Host Prince have some real competition.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 14:15:50


Post by: tneva82


JakeSiren wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
Man, I'm pumped about Epitome. I have plans to kill some fliers with it!

Any flier without a hover style rule will die. Get Epitome within 6", have a unit get into combat with the flier - either directly by charging or indirectly by charging into another unit and piling into it. Then, when it fails morale, it dies due to not moving its minimum distance. Makes for an easy kill.


Does slaanesh have much LD debuffs to make it so easy? Necron flyers have LD10 so 1/12 chance of failing it without debuffs.

Plus what units with fly slaanesh has to even charge into flyer?


Necrons need to roll lower than 10 on 3d6 which is a ~37.5% chance of passing. Debuffing them by even 1 puts it to ~26% of escaping, or the other way, a ~74% chance of being destroyed!

In terms of making it into combat with the flier, you don't need to change it. You can string out a unit of Daemonettes and use pile in / consolidate to get within 1" of enemy fliers.

*Edit*
In terms of additional units that can debuff leadership there is:
Be'lakor (12" bubble)
Nurgle Artefact: The Entropic Knell (7" bubble)
Phantasmagoria (12" bubble)

If you stacked these three together a leadership 10 model would only have a ~9.26% chance of escaping, anything leadership 7 would effectively be stuck as they only have a ~0.46% chance to escape (3 1's)


Okay had missed that 3d6 thingie...Certainly puts new spin on the thing! Remains to be seen how mobile that thing is. 6" isn't particularly long so if that's not fast(doesn't look like fast but who knows with slaanesh) it's hard.

Orks and necrons at least benefit from their fliers not having to be close to do their job. The eldar hemlocks could hate these things though.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 14:44:41


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


The new DP moves at 9", standard heralds move 7". I don't see it moving less than 7" and advancing it won't matter. I think it will be sufficiently speedy. If it's moving 9" like the Prince... oh boy.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 14:48:47


Post by: tneva82


If it's slaanesh terrain piece like others have been getting it would be first with m value. And it's giant statue on which 2 figures are standing so only "it's magic" explains moving ability


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 15:04:54


Post by: blackmage


until you know model's point and complete wargear profiles there is not reallylot to say, a model isn't good or bad just with a profile/rules, is for example that kind of herald/prince cost, ie 300+pts, it's useless. That just to make example, Kos.... great model good rules, but no way a model like that can get into melee quick enough before being crippled (14" but lack of fly is a huge handicap, you just need 10 Imperial guard and she waste a charge) or you must rely on a 9" inch charge after Ds


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 15:12:20


Post by: buddha


Strange question but had anyone seen any batreps with the new lord discordants? I'm curious to see how they play.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 15:52:18


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


I know that Tabletop Tactics has had 1 or two games played with a "count-as" lord discordant. Beard was using it.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 22:02:52


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


On the subject of Fiends of Slaanesh, is there any way of getting hold of their updated rules which doesn't involve buying Wrath & Rapture or the booklet contained within?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/24 23:07:16


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On the subject of Fiends of Slaanesh, is there any way of getting hold of their updated rules which doesn't involve buying Wrath & Rapture or the booklet contained within?


Battlescribe. If you’re sesperate though feel free to PM me and I can share a link to it. (Not BS if you don’t want that)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 01:59:55


Post by: Sersi


tneva82 wrote:
If it's slaanesh terrain piece like others have been getting it would be first with m value. And it's giant statue on which 2 figures are standing so only "it's magic" explains moving ability


I doubt its a terrain piece since the riders are described as Heralds; it probably has a basic Herald stat line but fights like two Heralds similar to how the chariots account for all the individual model's attacks. It's probably no less mobile that the Infernal Enrapturess and it moves 7".


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 02:01:32


Post by: JakeSiren


 blackmage wrote:
until you know model's point and complete wargear profiles there is not reallylot to say, a model isn't good or bad just with a profile/rules, is for example that kind of herald/prince cost, ie 300+pts, it's useless. That just to make example, Kos.... great model good rules, but no way a model like that can get into melee quick enough before being crippled (14" but lack of fly is a huge handicap, you just need 10 Imperial guard and she waste a charge) or you must rely on a 9" inch charge after Ds

With Epitome or some Fiends you can use those 10 guardsmen to your advantage to keep the KoS in combat and avoid being shot at. The real trick is to not kill them, so rather than using the KoS's weapons, you use the default close combat weapon that everyone comes with ( s: user, ap: - )

When it's the opponents fight phase that's when you kill them.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 11:07:32


Post by: blackmage


fact is that piece will never get into combat if opponent wont, unless you play against an army list without any firepower. I played Italian final 40k league, i ve seen a great slaanesh army and talked with the guy using it, in his list KOS is more a fire magnet to preserve his delicate units (exalted chariots, seekers and so on) in 90% of games she never gets into combat. Now at 165pts is reasonable use it that way, in future who know, i still think 8th edition isn't made for big guys, we have clear examples with Magnus and Mortarion, quite more durable than any KOS but still almost unplayed (at least outside of garagehammet).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 11:45:46


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


The Aegis thingie might give a better invuln save. 4++ would be better than 5++ (obviously).


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 13:01:26


Post by: Drdotts


I’m considering starting a mono god csm/daemons army for itc. Trying to decide between tzeentch and Nurgle. Sway me one way or the other!


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 13:15:23


Post by: blackmage


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Aegis thingie might give a better invuln save. 4++ would be better than 5++ (obviously).

im pretty sure it might give an improved save in melee only


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 13:58:06


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 blackmage wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Aegis thingie might give a better invuln save. 4++ would be better than 5++ (obviously).

im pretty sure it might give an improved save in melee only


That could very well be the case as well. Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, I guess.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/25 19:58:53


Post by: blackmage


does someone know where e and when new slaanesh datasheet will be released?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/26 00:01:22


Post by: lindsay40k


 blackmage wrote:
does someone know where e and when new slaanesh datasheet will be released?


They’ll ship in the new kits, most of which are on preorder this weekend


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/26 02:20:28


Post by: gruyere


Is there any restriction on where returned units from daemonic icons must be placed? Or is it just unit coherency


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/26 03:07:07


Post by: Khalan


gruyere wrote:
Is there any restriction on where returned units from daemonic icons must be placed? Or is it just unit coherency


Within coherency of a model that already existed at the start of the phase and 1" away from any enemy, it is in the FAQ


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/26 06:46:16


Post by: gruyere


Khalan wrote:
gruyere wrote:
Is there any restriction on where returned units from daemonic icons must be placed? Or is it just unit coherency


Within coherency of a model that already existed at the start of the phase and 1" away from any enemy, it is in the FAQ


Thanks, couldn’t find it lol


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 18:55:31


Post by: warmaster21


hmmmm for AoS the shield gives the keeper of secrets a 6+++ is that even worth taking if its the same for 40k?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 21:22:29


Post by: blackmage


 warmaster21 wrote:
hmmmm for AoS the shield gives the keeper of secrets a 6+++ is that even worth taking if its the same for 40k?

in 40k useless


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 21:56:11


Post by: Sersi


Rules and points. No points on the Contorted Epitome but at PL10 it should cost less than Syll’Esske which is 210 pts.













Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 21:59:13


Post by: drakerocket


KoS is functionally nerfed from current version. ;_;

It's garbage tier. That is a profound tragedy.

The other two look actually pretty good (the pair) and...actually really good (the mirror)


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 22:19:36


Post by: warmaster21


so for new KoS we're sitting at +1 BS, Strength doesnt degrade, +4 wounds, +2 speed in first 2 damage boxes and +1 speed in final box. Flat 4/3/2 attacks with claws instead of d3 and 1 better AP.

Hitting at S8 instead of 7 with sword.
Option for either ranged attacks, 0-3 melee mortal wounds or d3 healing in melee, or 6+++/5+++ vs mortal wounds

for +75/+85 more points....


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 22:20:13


Post by: timetowaste85


It went up a few points, but I don’t think it’s trash tier. The rest of the Slaanesh army is still cheap, I think it’s still worth running Keepers. At 165 they were ludicrously good.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 22:34:34


Post by: Sersi


 timetowaste85 wrote:
It went up a few points, but I don’t think it’s trash tier. The rest of the Slaanesh army is still cheap, I think it’s still worth running Keepers. At 165 they were ludicrously good.


No the Keepers not trash tier. But Syll'Esske and the Contorted Epitome seem like much more viable options. The Contorted Epitome is as fast as a winged Daemon Prince, has character protection, and can prevent any unit including flyers from falling back within 6". Is a Psyker capable of casting to powers and does 2X S6/AP-2/Damage 3 attacks and 8X S6/AP-1/Damage 2/Wound rolls of 6+ count as AP-4 attacks hitting on 2's. Nevermind, its +1S aura, and 2+ save vs mortal wounds. The things a beast. I need to pre-order a second one, or maybe I'll proxy the Mirror from the endless spell box.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 22:35:57


Post by: lindsay40k


drakerocket wrote:
KoS is functionally nerfed from current version. ;_;

It's garbage tier. That is a profound tragedy.

The other two look actually pretty good (the pair) and...actually really good (the mirror)


Agree the new things look amazing.

Hmm. 75pts for:
- +4W (nice)
- +2/2/1M (nice)
- non-degrading S8 (nice)
- more claw attacks with better AP (okay)
- reroll 1’s to wound against characters (not bad)
- a new toy
- - 6” S6 six-shooter that can pretty much never be locked down (eh, not terrible)
- - extra MW’s (the whip’s probably more use?)
- - extra healing in melee (not bad)
- - pay an additional 10pts for 6+++, which is effectively, +2.67W (are they ever going to fix Daemons’ Delightful Agonies?)

That lot’s probably not worth 75pts, but if so then an FAQ will probably adjust.

Now. The Epitome. Very nice, definitely high up on my list. Cavalry + Swallow Energy +8W puts them in a uniquely safe position in sniper-rich environments. No locked Warlord Trait? Celerity sounds good, for getting that strong DTW upfield and trolling some faller backers, buuut I suspect they’ll get FAQ’d to always have Murderdance or Caress?

Syll’Eske, what can I say, that’s just preposterous damage output and a third aura buff on top of the excellent standard pair. Shame my Word Bearers Daemonkin will see zero benefit, but Daemonettes with an Icon will now have a 1/3 chance of taking negative casualties to Morale.

Shalaxi’s damage output could be preposterous. Worth it for that price?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 22:41:08


Post by: Rydria


The Contorted Epitome seems really good, 10 str 6 attacks at 2+ to hit, while also being a level 2 psyker with +1 to psychic tests and deny the witch. While also having a 12inch move.

Power level 10 means it costs more than a Daemon prince with wings (PL9) or horticus also (PL9) so they are 180+pts


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/27 23:59:18


Post by: drakerocket


Those are all nice buffs but not what the KoS needed. The shield needed to give +1 invulnerability, plain and simple. The with warp surge it could actually live. Or mesmerizing aura needed to work on shooting. The issue with the KoS is not killing or speed, it is how does it live if your opponent goes first?

At 165 it could kind of overcome that by being semi disposable. But even then they were never used competitively. Tacking on 75-85 points with the only survivability boost being 4 wounds just doesn't work.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 00:20:45


Post by: warmaster21


On the bright side zarakynel is slightly under the cost of 3 KoS's now instead of being more expensive than 4.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 00:59:21


Post by: buddha


Seems little reason to take the generic KoS compared to Shalaxi who is superior in every regard for 30pts more.

Both the new DP and mirror thing have promise but we'll have to see the final costs as 200pts (based on 10PL) is too much.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 03:16:54


Post by: drakerocket


Mirror is definitely the best of the lot. A smidge more points than a DP has comparable speed and durability, slightly better melee, a bonus psychic power, +1 to dtw and psychic tests, the ability to ignore mortal wounds, the aura to make things stay in melee.

DPs are the gold standard for efficacy across much of chaos so a favorable comparison rocks.

The pair are good, but it's unfortunate that they have bewitching aura as their trait. They really needed celerity of slaanesh to be great and would have even been better off with the murder dance.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 04:32:05


Post by: FancyPigeon


I've got some questions about the daemon/thousand sons lists that you see so often in top tournament lists. You probably know the ones. Plaguebearers, Pipers, Scriveners in one detachment and Ahriman and daemon princes in the second. I like these lists, and I've started building towards it as my first army. But I've reached the point where I have to start considering what to build past those typical parts.

My questions are: what is the role of these two detachments, why are they so common (what do they do exceptionally well?) and what is the goal of the third detachment? Because I feel like you see just about anything in there. Bloodletters? Pinks? Chariots? Plagueburst Crawlers? Terminators? If there's a Chaos unit that exists I swear I've seen them in there.

So what's the deal here? Is it like a flex slot? Do you adapt whats in that slot according to your meta?

I apologize if this question has been answered before but I'm having some trouble finding specific list advice or discussion about these lists, despite their apparent popularity, so I figured this was as decent a place as any to start. I also apologize if people are offended by my netdecking (netlisting?) but I'm pretty new to all this and wanted somewhere to start. I'm coming to this hobby from MTG where competitive decks are more-or-less solved. I'm open to experimentation and personalization but before I can do that I feel like I need to understand the list better.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 04:37:36


Post by: slave.entity


The third detachment is for your damage dealers. Your massed shooting or massed CC attacks. The things you need to clear screens and delete large targets. I run bloodletters, pinks, and a Thousand Sons butcher leviathan. But really, you can run whatever you want. You could run a skullreaver prince or a gatling knight or triple Deredeos. The core of the Ahriman & friends list (plaguebearers/Tsons princes) really doesn't have a lot of damage potential. Plaguebearers are too slow and daemon princes have no way to get past large screens on their own. So the rest of your list should be focused on ways to actually destroy the enemy army.

The Ahriman & Co list works because 1) buffed plaguebearers are the most resilient troops choice in the game and can be buffed for decent mobility and damage potential and 2) Ahriman is the best psyker in the game (possibly next to Eldrad). You use the plaguebearers to capture objectives and protect your killy units and you use Ahriman and his goon squad to own the psychic phase and remove any major threats with death hex and other spells. That's basically it in a nutshell.

40k is fairly resistant to being 'solved' in the way TCGs are due to the lack of standardization in rulesets and terrain setups in competitive play. Furthermore, GW's frequently ambiguous wording in their own rules means often times the interpretation of a rule at an event is basically a coin flip decided by your TO. Lastly, 40k is such a slow, rock-paper-scissors-y game that meta shifts take a very long time to resolve, and it's totally possible to succeed with anti-meta lists if you correctly anticipate how your opponents build for an event.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 05:21:17


Post by: Eldenfirefly


drakerocket wrote:
Those are all nice buffs but not what the KoS needed. The shield needed to give +1 invulnerability, plain and simple. The with warp surge it could actually live. Or mesmerizing aura needed to work on shooting. The issue with the KoS is not killing or speed, it is how does it live if your opponent goes first?

At 165 it could kind of overcome that by being semi disposable. But even then they were never used competitively. Tacking on 75-85 points with the only survivability boost being 4 wounds just doesn't work.


Slanaash Greater possessed from CSM are a good consideration if you want a relatively cheap fighty character. They are stat 5 across the board for the most part and cost just 70 points. They also synergise well with a slanaash daemon army because they are daemon keyword so they benefit from all of the demon auras. You can take 2 in just one elite slot. They are like mini daemon princes for half the price or less.



Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 09:08:31


Post by: gruyere


 FancyPigeon wrote:
I've got some questions about the daemon/thousand sons lists that you see so often in top tournament lists. You probably know the ones. Plaguebearers, Pipers, Scriveners in one detachment and Ahriman and daemon princes in the second. I like these lists, and I've started building towards it as my first army. But I've reached the point where I have to start considering what to build past those typical parts.

My questions are: what is the role of these two detachments, why are they so common (what do they do exceptionally well?) and what is the goal of the third detachment? Because I feel like you see just about anything in there. Bloodletters? Pinks? Chariots? Plagueburst Crawlers? Terminators? If there's a Chaos unit that exists I swear I've seen them in there.

So what's the deal here? Is it like a flex slot? Do you adapt whats in that slot according to your meta?

I apologize if this question has been answered before but I'm having some trouble finding specific list advice or discussion about these lists, despite their apparent popularity, so I figured this was as decent a place as any to start. I also apologize if people are offended by my netdecking (netlisting?) but I'm pretty new to all this and wanted somewhere to start. I'm coming to this hobby from MTG where competitive decks are more-or-less solved. I'm open to experimentation and personalization but before I can do that I feel like I need to understand the list better.


Anyone offended by netdecking in 2019 is being ignorant of the fact that we live in a world of knowledge where we can get answers at our finger tips. I also come from MTG, and while warhammer is more varied in the type of advice you get (as it is typically less competitively available) you can find sources of good info from facebook groups, battle reports or watching streams. I’m not talking some goober in their basement jamming terrible lists, if you wanna play top tier lists look at top tier players (Josh Death, Jim Vesal, Don Hooson are some I look towards). Jim plays a very typical list of what you have described. I’ve watched him play it a few times as well as played it a bit myself but I am nowhere near his level. I can give some insight based on what i know.

The daemons battalion is based on board control and screening mostly. Plaguebearers are ridiculously tanky, and daemons most powerful tools are characters. Daemon princes are our best unit, so plagues screening them helps us get thme into their effective range. Typically, you will see plagues spread out in a line as far as possible within coherency, to get as much of the board clogged up as possible. Typically you also spam miasma on them and warpsurge to keep them alive as long as possible.

The 1K sons supreme command functions very well with the battalion since all thr units are characters. Ahriman is one of the most powerful psykers in the game and 1K sons princes are the most powerful princes in the game. This setup provides a huge psychic phase of spammable smites and nukes while also having a great deny the witch game.

The last detachment is flex, as you have said, and varies a lot. Tzaangors, bloodletters, PBCs, blightlords, anything. But mostly it relies on getting a heavy hitting unit. The current meta has a ton of knights, so you want something that can kill a knight. This is why you usually see khorne daemon princes with skullreaver or bloodletters. You typically see pinks to either clear chaff for more cc units or do targetted shooting bombs. Im less experienced with tzaangors and blightlords, but my understanding is that blightlords can really mess up a parking lot. Our strength in chaos is strong deepstrike units, so that is typically used, but forgeworld dreadnaught spearheads work too as a heavy hitting option.

Anyway , yeah thats about it. Check out lists, watch streams and play some games. Hope this helps a bit


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 18:01:21


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


With the new rules for the Keeper of Secrets out I've given my "assorted monsters" list some tweaking. I realize that I'm never going to compete with meta builds with the list, and that I'd probably be better off grabbing some Thousand Sons for a Tzaangor bomb rather than going with vanilla CSM, but them's the breaks.

Daemons of Khorne batallion
Bloodthirster, Armour of Scorn - 260 <---Warlord, 6+ FNP trait
Daemon Prince - 180
Bloodletters, banner, musician - 95
Bloodletters, banner, musician - 95
Bloodletters, banner, musician - 95

Daemons of Slaanesh batallion
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand - 240
Herald on Steed - 82
Daemonettes, banner, musician - 85
Daemonettes, banner, musician - 85
Daemonettes, banner, musician - 85
Seekers, musician - 85

Red Corsairs Batallion - Soulforged Pack
Lord Discordant, Slaanesh, Autocannon, Master of the Soulforges - 160
Daemon Prince(ss) of Slaanesh - 180
Slaanesh CSM, Rotorcannon, combi-bolter - 87
Slaanesh CSM, Rotorcannon, combi-bolter - 87
Slaanesh CSM, Rotorcannon, combi-bolter - 87

1986 points.

I've got 21 command points base, the Bloodletters eat six of them, the Soulforged Pack and trait for the LD eats another two, bringing me down to 13, which is plenty. I've considered using the Soulstealer for the Keeper of Secrets to regen wounds from everything I kill and from the Sinistrous Hand, but it'd also drop it down to T7 when it's not near the Herald.

The idea is to Warptime the Lord Discordant up the field on turn 1 while running the Seekers, the Herald on Steed and the Keeper of Secrets as far upfield as they can get. Between the stupid 35" average move of the Lord Discordant (14" move, 3.5" average advance, times two) and the decent speed of the Seekers, Herald and Keeper of Secrets I should be able to start going after screens in melee turn 1, further aided by the rotorcannons from my camping CSM. This means the opponent is unlikely to have the time to shoot the Bloodthirster, as there's both a Lord Discordant and a Keeper of Secrets in their deployment zone really early.

I've been considering dropping the banners on the Daemonettes, as I'm not sure they'll do much. For the saved points I could squeeze a Fiend in, which would give me another potential T1 charger and an annoying unit messing with psykers and keeping things locked in combat. Thoughts?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/28 18:03:35


Post by: Excommunicatus


I wouldn't bother with a banner in a unit of ten, personally.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/29 12:13:34


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


If I dropped the banners and the weapons on one CSM squad I could swap the Khorne Prince for a second Bloodthirster for more target saturation.

Would it be worth running the KoS as Warlord instead and going for the +3" move trait? That'd make the first-turn charge potential that much more nasty.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/29 12:37:52


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


I honestly don’t see the point of banners in MSU squads. They will die before getting the chance to take the morale test usually. Or you’ll replenish some but it’s still essentially a distraction.

I am not sure how your bloodletters take up 6 CP unless you’re upgrading their banners as well?

I think the extra BT sounds better than having the banners but losing a DP might not be the best trade off... but having multiple big ass Daemons may mitigate that. They can only shoot at so much right? Lol

As for the KOS being the warlord, that could be OK.. I’d recommend just spending the CP to give the KOS the soul stealer to use screens as a battery since shell be up close quickly. 1 wound per model killed will be significant considering people use screens to block the big baddies.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/29 14:09:32


Post by: Excommunicatus


Do you really need the +3 on a 14"M model?

I've dropped Celerity as a WT for all my lists led by a KoS, 'cause She can keep up with Seekers and Fiends without it now.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/29 16:54:02


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


The FAQ has dropped! Knights are up 100+ points and they have had their rotate ion shields strategem nerfed to our Warp Surge level, along with increasing its cost in CP into a 1/3 based on the knight being used. I assume the Castellan costs more CP to rotate now.

Big fix for us = flying over models again. DPs, BTs and LOC are back in business with that again.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/29 17:54:46


Post by: JNAProductions


It was 1 CP questoris, 3 CP others.

Now it’s 3 CP Dominous, 1 CP others.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/29 23:43:25


Post by: operkoi


Wonder how the DP nerf (all 4 count as the same type of unit) is going to affect lists.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/29 23:47:25


Post by: dan2026


Bloodcrushers have also gained a wound. Up to 4.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 00:11:26


Post by: slave.entity


operkoi wrote:
Wonder how the DP nerf (all 4 count as the same type of unit) is going to affect lists.


People rarely took more than 2 DPs in competitive lists.

 dan2026 wrote:
Bloodcrushers have also gained a wound. Up to 4.


3 extra wounds in a min unit of Bloodcrushers isn't going to make a difference sadly.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 00:13:13


Post by: buddha


 dan2026 wrote:
Bloodcrushers have also gained a wound. Up to 4.


Not much but anything helps. If they even had a 10" move it would significantly help but alas.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 00:28:22


Post by: slave.entity


Bloodcrushers have been at 4 wounds for a while anyway. The problem is bloodletters exist.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 11:35:28


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


ArmchairArbiter wrote:
I honestly don’t see the point of banners in MSU squads. They will die before getting the chance to take the morale test usually. Or you’ll replenish some but it’s still essentially a distraction.

I am not sure how your bloodletters take up 6 CP unless you’re upgrading their banners as well?

I think the extra BT sounds better than having the banners but losing a DP might not be the best trade off... but having multiple big ass Daemons may mitigate that. They can only shoot at so much right? Lol

As for the KOS being the warlord, that could be OK.. I’d recommend just spending the CP to give the KOS the soul stealer to use screens as a battery since shell be up close quickly. 1 wound per model killed will be significant considering people use screens to block the big baddies.


Bloodletters are Deep Striking in and charging, so Banner of Blood is more or less mandatory.

17" move instead of 14" move is the difference between needing a 3.5" charge and a 6.5" charge to get to the 24" mark on turn 1, alternatively being able to threaten screens deployed further back than the edge of the deployment zone.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 12:05:09


Post by: Excommunicatus


The average 2d6 roll is 7, isn't it? I'm presuming you can afford one CP for a re-roll if necessary.

Celerity stops being any use after T1, that's my biggest problem with it.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 12:16:14


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


 slave.entity wrote:
Bloodcrushers have been at 4 wounds for a while anyway. The problem is bloodletters exist.


you're right, Bloodcrushers pale in comparison to BLoodletters, its made me sad since I have adored my bloodcrushers since they were first released and I have ran them since!

I love them in my semi casual lists, Normally focussing around a Herald on Jugg (customised up with flesh hound and such since he is leading my Bloodhunt!) with a couple of packs of flesh hounds, bloodcrushers and a rhino with either Khorne Berzerkers or Chosen.


Gets job done, although it works best mixed with Tzeentch


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 14:08:17


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Excommunicatus wrote:
The average 2d6 roll is 7, isn't it? I'm presuming you can afford one CP for a re-roll if necessary.


You'll likely have rerolls from a Khorne Character, but even with rerolls and a +1" to charge range from the hornblower you've got a sub-70% chance of making the charge, whereas with the banner you get something absurd like a 97% chance of success IIRC. Nothing sucks more than having your T3 5++ infantry fail their charge and be stuck in the open.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 14:37:30


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


So without knowing the points for the epitome, and assuming it is 200 due to the attributed PL, I believe I have come up with my 2k point list.


Batallion

HQ
1x Syllesske
1x Contorted Epitome

Troops
Daemonettes x24
Daemonettes x24
Daemonettes x24

Elites:

3x Fiends (squad or solo)

Heavy Support:

3x Exalted Seeker Chariots

Supreme Command Detachment -

2x KOS

This is where I am getting stuck.. my concept = the Daemonettes and Exalted Chariots can clean up chaff and normal units.

Syllesske follows the enormous blob of Daemonettes, the mirror follows the chariots and fiends. From the datasheet it is apparent (to me at least) that syllesske fits perfectly with Daemonettes, having a similar speed, two buffs, and letting them reroll ANY morale tests to try to get reality to blink.

Mirror matches the speed of the chariots.

If I gave all the KOS the hand/dagger/whip I can spring for 3 KOS (list only has 2 atm) and then I feel like I have some really strong target saturation...

Or I could give 2 shields and put another cheaper HQ in like the Masque. Or say F it and have another mirror following the chariots for psychic doom everywhere.

This is mainly just me playing around points to see what we can include, not trying to make the most competitive list I can but I think this could be OK... hrm. I am not sure Seekers are worth it but with the new KOS speed they might be, the KOS and a wall of Seekers rushing forward seems decent.




Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 14:52:24


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


The way I see it, you either go all in on target saturation if you're bringing any Greater Daemon or you don't bother. One is just going to get pasted, two are likewise unlikely to achieve much. Three starts getting somewhere and at four at least some of them are going to get where they're going.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/04/30 15:37:53


Post by: ArmchairArbiter


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The way I see it, you either go all in on target saturation if you're bringing any Greater Daemon or you don't bother. One is just going to get pasted, two are likewise unlikely to achieve much. Three starts getting somewhere and at four at least some of them are going to get where they're going.


I agree, though it's partially why I brought the Exalted Seeker Chariots. People see those and view them as tanks, particularly with how fast they move and they tend to want to shoot at them with the anti-tank stuff that could instead be focused on the Greater Daemon. That has been my experience at least... but I also love the idea of 3 KOS. Maybe I could drop the Fiends and make some room... hrm. Wish we knew the points for the mirror, if it's something weird like 205 or 190 it messes with the math.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 16:20:55


Post by: ClockworkZion


So I know mono-Slaanesh isn't very competetive looking, but how are the chariots doing in the game? They seem cheaper than most vehicle options and look to be a reasonable way to get that 15CP starting bonus, but do they actually play okay?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 16:27:34


Post by: lindsay40k


 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I know mono-Slaanesh isn't very competetive looking, but how are the chariots doing in the game? They seem cheaper than most vehicle options and look to be a reasonable way to get that 15CP starting bonus, but do they actually play okay?


Given the Slaaneshi abundance of HQ’s, if you can afford a Bridage and have the Battalion slots, it can be better to take loads of detachments. You get one more CP that way


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 16:28:51


Post by: Excommunicatus


I play in a strictly non-competitive meta but I have tremendous fun smashing Chariots into my enemies lines, driving them before me and hearing the lamentations of their women.

I run six of them, natch. Three Hellflayers, two Seeker Chariots, Herald on Seeker Chariot.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 16:32:45


Post by: ClockworkZion


 lindsay40k wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I know mono-Slaanesh isn't very competetive looking, but how are the chariots doing in the game? They seem cheaper than most vehicle options and look to be a reasonable way to get that 15CP starting bonus, but do they actually play okay?


Given the Slaaneshi abundance of HQ’s, if you can afford a Bridage and have the Battalion slots, it can be better to take loads of detachments. You get one more CP that way

A Battalion only gives us 8 CP, +2CP for two additional FOCs, while a Brigade gives us 12CP +3 for being Battleforged. 15>10 so I'm lost on how we get "more" with the extra detachments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
I play in a strictly non-competitive meta but I have tremendous fun smashing Chariots into my enemies lines, driving them before me and hearing the lamentations of their women.

I run six of them, natch. Three Hellflayers, two Seeker Chariots, Herald on Seeker Chariot.

I'm looking to be in combat with just about everything by turn 2 at the latest (turn 1 if possible), so that seems good to me! We're safer in melee than we are outside of it due to shooting being our big weakpoint. That said, I'm not building an ITC style army so semi-competitive is about as far as I'm going.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 16:42:11


Post by: Excommunicatus


My usual list, before the KoS pts increases, was

KoS
6 Heralds
6 Chariots
6 Fiends
60 Daemonettes
18 Seekers

I don't think it's even semi-competitive in a proper tourney environment, but it is fun.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 17:19:18


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Excommunicatus wrote:
My usual list, before the KoS pts increases, was

KoS
6 Heralds
6 Chariots
6 Fiends
60 Daemonettes
18 Seekers

I don't think it's even semi-competitive in a proper tourney environment, but it is fun.

It sounds interesting! I'm looking at the KoS, the purest couple of 40k, and probably the new harp (though the mirror looks good. It's hard to choose just one). The rest of the list I was considering looks largely the same.


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 17:47:19


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Am I missing something, or did GW not update the Herald of Slaanesh on mount to get reroll charges instead of charge after advancing?


Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition @ 2019/05/01 18:50:37


Post by: Excommunicatus


Mounted Slaanesh Heralds are Index only, so no updates.

They don't have the D2 Ravaging Claws, either. They have Piercing Claws, like Daemonettes.