1k Sons is great, but sadly the only new thing they bring to the table is the awesome smites, and great HQ's; everything else in the dex is pretty lackluster, cept Tzangors. Ahrimans amazing, but worth buying a codex for a single dude...?
You do not have to buy a codex to use it . And when you can add an additional cast per turn, access to Death Hex and Warptime and 6'' to the range of casts to your DPs just by telling: "They are from TS detachment now" there are no reasons not to do it. Oh, and they can heal themselves with Temporal Manipulation as well.
1k Sons is great, but sadly the only new thing they bring to the table is the awesome smites, and great HQ's; everything else in the dex is pretty lackluster, cept Tzangors. Ahrimans amazing, but worth buying a codex for a single dude...?
You do not have to buy a codex to use it . And when you can add an additional cast per turn, access to Death Hex and Warptime and 6'' to the range of casts to your DPs just by telling: "They are from TS detachment now" there are no reasons not to do it. Oh, and they can heal themselves with Temporal Manipulation as well.
You do have to buy a codex to use it. Don’t be that guy.
what about 18 tzaangors on disk or switch them for 8 more plague drones to the 8 im already playing? some suggestions? 16 plague drones sounds so durable.
Thenord wrote: Newbie quick question. Just bought a blood thirster kit, wich of the three are the Better one?
Depends on the role in your army. The one with the great ax of Khorne is my pick as the 2x profiles for his weapon give him more flexibility imo vs horde units and monsters/Armour. Unfortunately he’s a bullet magnet and he annoyingly degrades so definitely needs the armour of Scorn + strat for +1 inv.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What’s people’s benchmark for wether their list is competitive or not? What army/builds do you play test against to ascertain the viability of this? Cheers all^ - ^
Thenord wrote: Newbie quick question. Just bought a blood thirster kit, wich of the three are the Better one?
Depends on the role in your army. The one with the great ax of Khorne is my pick as the 2x profiles for his weapon give him more flexibility imo vs horde units and monsters/Armour. Unfortunately he’s a bullet magnet and he annoyingly degrades so definitely needs the armour of Scorn + strat for
He's gonna lead an outrider detachment with him and 3x10 flesh hounds in a World eaters army, with zerkers, rhinos and a Kytan.
I like the big axe guy as a model, but the fact that he looses both ws and attacks as he takes damage, worries me a bit..
I’ve run a Bloodthirster with a Lord of Skulls and it definitely helps the survivability of the Lord. Invariably they focus one down turn 1, and the thirster is less survivable so they go for him first.
Badablack wrote: I’ve run a Bloodthirster with a Lord of Skulls and it definitely helps the survivability of the Lord. Invariably they focus one down turn 1, and the thirster is less survivable so they go for him first.
Damit, only just say that the others don’t lose WS. Just run three of them and you’ll be alright
Automatically Appended Next Post: What’s people’s benchmark for wether their list is competitive or not? What army/builds do you play test against to ascertain the viability of this? Cheers all^ - ^
For me my benchmark is, can it stand up to a tier 1 army like CWE, DE, or Tyranids? I run CWE and two of my close friends run Tyranids and DE respectively. In every single game, their army provides an "answer" to every trick daemons have up their sleeve, while conversely, there are elements to their lists that daemons just can't deal with. In general I find that daemons are too slow, lack mobility, lack range, and lack enough consistent massed firepower to handle those 3 armies. Even against tier 2 armies such as CSM or DG who are also relatively slow, short-ranged armies, I find that pure daemons just doesn't have enough options to compete with things like havocs, obliterators, plagueburst crawlers, bloat-drones, or Typhus-buffed pox walkers. Not nearly enough firepower and durability and extremely easy to cripple units to uselessness by comparison.
It's honestly quite a shock for me going full steam into daemons recently having come from CWE. I'm still fairly new to playing competitively but I've found that even when I was a total noob, CWE would simply "carry" me to victory by virtue of how easy they are to play and how strong each individual unit is. Not the case with daemons. It's a shame because I absolutely love the models and have amassed a substantial collection. At this point, I basically have multiple thousand points of "fun" units to add to my CSM lists for casual games moving forward
I'm a kind of a newbie both in the forum and the game, so far I've been learning to play using just pinks as troops but I've started to think about the split ability.
A question occured however how does split works with wound allocation? I mean, since pinks, blues and brims are still within 1 unit, can I allocate rest of the wounds after a pink dies and it splits?
What I mean here is let's say I've got 4 wounds to allocate, can I give it to 1 pink, kill it and split into blues, give 2W to blues, kill them and 1 to the to-be-summoned brimstone instead of 4 pinks and split afterward?
On the other hand, I've learned a lot from the thread so as a "hello" big thanks to everyone here for tips
I do agree however that daemons army (atm I'm playing Tzeentch/Khorne) is not only focused on Nurgle but it lacks respectively to the other armies. It seems the new summoning system GW introduced into AOS would be kind of a refreshment to the army if it worked in 40k as well, but without any boost to their stats or abilities, it's a struggle to compete with any other army - at least from my POV.
I'm about to test just for fun a LoC as Aeatos'rau'keres tomorrow that atm costs 1500 points as a lord of war, I can't see however how this 1500 may be equal in any way to 1500 deployed in form of a regular army.
You do have to buy a codex to use it. Don’t be that guy.
Show me a page in the rulebook where I can find that requirement, please. Or I will still insist that one does not.
It is not necessarily mean that you have to download a PDF from the Internet: you can borrow a codex or photocopy necessary pages and so on. But you are totally not obliged to buy it.
What I mean here is let's say I've got 4 wounds to allocate, can I give it to 1 pink, kill it and split into blues, give 2W to blues, kill them and 1 to the to-be-summoned brimstone instead of 4 pinks and split afterward?
It's an interesting question. On the one hand, the Split rule says that you can add new models to the unit before you remove a killed model, so they definitely become a part of the unit during a process of resolving effects of the attack not afterwards. On the other hand, all shooting happens simultaneously and you remove casualties one by one only because it is physically impossible to remove them at once. I think we cannot allocate wounds to a newly created daemons because they were not present at the table at the moment an attack was done.
If you’re going to steal the rules, for God’s sake print it out. If you bought it legitimately on your phone, also print it out. Few things worse than having your opponent not know a damage profile or stratagem, unlock their phone, wait for their e-reader to open, scroll to the right page, and then do it all again ten minutes later.
Badablack wrote: Few things worse than having your opponent not know a damage profile or stratagem, unlock their phone, wait for their e-reader to open, scroll to the right page, and then do it all again ten minutes later.
That's why I always print my list from BattleScribe using the most verbose settings it has. All profiles, all spells and most of the rules included. It is the best way from my experience.
What I mean here is let's say I've got 4 wounds to allocate, can I give it to 1 pink, kill it and split into blues, give 2W to blues, kill them and 1 to the to-be-summoned brimstone instead of 4 pinks and split afterward?
It's an interesting question. On the one hand, the Split rule says that you can add new models to the unit before you remove a killed model, so they definitely become a part of the unit during a process of resolving effects of the attack not afterwards. On the other hand, all shooting happens simultaneously and you remove casualties one by one only because it is physically impossible to remove them at once. I think we cannot allocate wounds to a newly created daemons because they were not present at the table at the moment an attack was done.
Well, it’s worth noting that the default rule is that one rolls each individual attack one by one. The situation arises when fast dice rolling is employed:
make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.
RAW, each wound is worked out individually, and there’s no more requirement that it be allocated to a member of the unit that existed at the time the weapons fired than there is for it to be allocated to a member of the unit that is visible to the firer and in range.
A group of guardsmen open up on a Pink Horror they can see peeking at them around the side of a wall 23” away. Five lasgun shots hit and wound. The first laser beam bends around the wall and stretches to be allocated to a Pink that is hanging out at the back 34” away from the gunline, who fails its save and becomes two Blues that are placed in its location 34” and 36” away from and invisible to the firing unit. The remaining wounds are similarly allocated one by one to the Blues and their Brimstone offspring, all of which fail their saves against the curved lasers that went forwards in time to hit them.
The laws of space do not apply to wound allocation in this edition, and it seems that, until an FAQ rules otherwise, the laws of time don’t particularly care much, either.
Badablack wrote: Few things worse than having your opponent not know a damage profile or stratagem, unlock their phone, wait for their e-reader to open, scroll to the right page, and then do it all again ten minutes later.
That's why I always print my list from BattleScribe using the most verbose settings it has. All profiles, all spells and most of the rules included. It is the best way from my experience.
While it's convenient just be prepared for when someone asks to see the actual codex (physical or eBook). BattleScribe is known to be wrong - your opponent could deny you from using any of your rules by saying that BattleScribe has it wrong and that it's something else.
While it's convenient just be prepared for when someone asks to see the actual codex (physical or eBook). BattleScribe is known to be wrong - your opponent could deny you from using any of your rules by saying that BattleScribe has it wrong and that it's something else.
Oh, please, I play this game since 5 ed so no need to remind me of this. What I say is that it is extremely useful to have that printed list with all details, not that BS is a substitute for a codex (we need it for stratagems and tactical objectives and doctrines and so on).
Badablack wrote: Few things worse than having your opponent not know a damage profile or stratagem, unlock their phone, wait for their e-reader to open, scroll to the right page, and then do it all again ten minutes later.
That's why I always print my list from BattleScribe using the most verbose settings it has. All profiles, all spells and most of the rules included. It is the best way from my experience.
While it's convenient just be prepared for when someone asks to see the actual codex (physical or eBook). BattleScribe is known to be wrong - your opponent could deny you from using any of your rules by saying that BattleScribe has it wrong and that it's something else.
Couldn't they say the same thing even of you have the officially released codexs as those become wrong when faqs and errata comes out. Buying the rules wont help you with opponents that think they know better than you.
Has anyone tried a ranged Nurgle/Epidemus style list? I don't know, something about Obliterators and PBC's working alongside Epidemus and a tide of Plaguebearers gives me a warm and fuzzy
I’ve fielded something similar. Epidemius Battalion, Death Guard Outriders (haulers and drones), Word Bearers Spearhead. The WB Daemon Prince gives the haulers Prescience for a turn or two, racking up some kills. His contingent also includes some Havocs or Rapiers, which efficiently put damage on targets for a Daemon of some stripe to finish off. Miasma on the Haulers, they’re so bloody tough to get off the board it winds your opponent up no end. Halfway through the game, use a familiar to give the CSMDP Warptime and fly across the board to kamikaze a key target - or Death Hex some preposterously tough unit. Or perhaps Warptime the multi Meltas into close range. Lot of options. I had my haulers bite the ankles off the Tau Knight class battlesuit to get a win. Obviously, Alpha Lefion or even Iron Warriors would outperform Word Bearers, but they’re what I collect so that’s that - and a Daemonkin army fits them well
While it's convenient just be prepared for when someone asks to see the actual codex (physical or eBook). BattleScribe is known to be wrong - your opponent could deny you from using any of your rules by saying that BattleScribe has it wrong and that it's something else.
Oh, please, I play this game since 5 ed so no need to remind me of this. What I say is that it is extremely useful to have that printed list with all details, not that BS is a substitute for a codex (we need it for stratagems and tactical objectives and doctrines and so on).
Too easy. I just wanted to say it so that if Joe Newbie came reading and thought that battlescribe was an acceptable rules resource that they would be aware that, no, you still need to have your actual rules available.
Badablack wrote: Few things worse than having your opponent not know a damage profile or stratagem, unlock their phone, wait for their e-reader to open, scroll to the right page, and then do it all again ten minutes later.
That's why I always print my list from BattleScribe using the most verbose settings it has. All profiles, all spells and most of the rules included. It is the best way from my experience.
While it's convenient just be prepared for when someone asks to see the actual codex (physical or eBook). BattleScribe is known to be wrong - your opponent could deny you from using any of your rules by saying that BattleScribe has it wrong and that it's something else.
Couldn't they say the same thing even of you have the officially released codexs as those become wrong when faqs and errata comes out. Buying the rules wont help you with opponents that think they know better than you.
Having both the rules from an official source and FAQ's available allows you to demonstrate what the correct rules are. Having neither puts you in a situation with no way to authoritatively resolve any rules dispute.
Very viable and you have a good basis. Get thos eplaguebearers up to 90 at least. Top up the flies and grab a couple of daemon princes and your looking ok. A gnarlmaw is a must.
ritualnet wrote: is pure nurgle demons viable? if so, what sort of basis should I start with?
I have 40 plaguebearers, 9 nurglings, 3 flies, Horticulous, a Poxbringer, spoilpox and a Slopity.
I do have the DI deathguard (plus a blight hauler, and the easy build DG marines), but I'd rather keep it to nurgle demons.
20 more plaguebearers 5 more flies and couple of Dp's and you have a solid list
Snag Epidemus as well. Epi I feel is a keystone of mono-nurgle, he just provides so much to the army.
Personally, I will always at least take a DG detachment with my Nurgle as well; Bloat Drones and PBC's are nurgle demons, and DG Demon Princes have access to better relics and warlord traits, not to mention they still allow nurgle demons rerolls on 1's
yes i played a build with nurgle batt dg outrider with 3 drones and a Ts supreme command for psy support maybe would be better use a demons supreme command
Um... HUH? What does this question even mean? Every army works the best in a casual setting ._.
If you want most fun - Tzeetch. If you want strongest - Nurgle
Thenord wrote: Quick question. Which mono god army works best in all comers, casual setting?
Nurgle. Sometimes I feel like I can't make a bad list in a casual setting. Everything they have is at least decent, even soul grinders, thanks to disgustingly resilient. Great unclean ones go from terrible, to insanely good when you are not facing down 12 lascannons with re-rolls.
Thenord wrote: Quick question. Which mono god army works best in all comers, casual setting?
I'd actually say Khorne, personally. Despite being all about hard melee, their heavy support option is one of the better artillery pieces in Chaos in my opinion. Cheap, suprisingly tough for the points, doens't degrade, and shoots far.
im playing Nurgle and in past i played Tz, and def Nurgle right now is strong, coupled with Dg outrider (for bloated drones) and/or Ts supreme command for the psionic power works good. I also tried 18 enlightened +shaman, not bad but look like a bit too fragile. Btw in casual games every God might be strong
Thenord wrote: Thanks for the input guys. Sounds very good. I would like to make a pure khorne daemon army. What would be must haves? Thirsters and skull Canons?
Would a World Eaters detachment made up of Daemon Princes, Juggerlords, Obliterators, Decimators and Heldrakes be out of the question? Or, perhaps, Alpha Legion with Possessed and/or Warp Talons thrown in?
If you’re going pure Chaos Daemons, then Bloodcrushers are somewhat overcosted for their speed and durability. Skullmasters, on the other hand, add some mobility and endurance to their riders. Flesh Hounds add DTW coverage, and are reasonably coated for what they do. (A handful of Furies can fill out an Outriders for a cheeky +1CP and some mobile screening.) Skull Cannons seem viable if you’re not using Daemon Astartes units. Three seems more useful than two and a Soulgrinder.
Thenord wrote: Thanks for the input guys. Sounds very good. I would like to make a pure khorne daemon army. What would be must haves? Thirsters and skull Canons?
Would a World Eaters detachment made up of Daemon Princes, Juggerlords, Obliterators, Decimators and Heldrakes be out of the question? Or, perhaps, Alpha Legion with Possessed and/or Warp Talons thrown in?
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They deffinetly wouldn't be out of the question. But wouldn't that cost me the 3 cp for being battleforged?
I was originally planning on 50/50 World eaters (just not the usuall 3x zerker units with matching rhino..) and khorne daemons. What would put in a 1000 point ish World eater detachment?
Thenord wrote: Thanks for the input guys. Sounds very good. I would like to make a pure khorne daemon army. What would be must haves? Thirsters and skull Canons?
Daemon Princes, Bloodletters, maybe some Hounds and Scull Cannons. Add Heralds and such to your taste.
Stay away from Thirsters though, 'cause they can be targeted and will probably not make it to the fight.
If you are ready to include WE in your list then go for a Lord and 3 packs of Berserkers in Rhinos.
You will probably be able to squeeze 2 Battalions into 2000 points that will give you plenty of CPs for all additional Relics and Stratagems you'll need.
Thenord wrote: Thanks for the input guys. Sounds very good. I would like to make a pure khorne daemon army. What would be must haves? Thirsters and skull Canons?
Would a World Eaters detachment made up of Daemon Princes, Juggerlords, Obliterators, Decimators and Heldrakes be out of the question? Or, perhaps, Alpha Legion with Possessed and/or Warp Talons thrown in?
.
They deffinetly wouldn't be out of the question. But wouldn't that cost me the 3 cp for being battleforged?
I was originally planning on 50/50 World eaters (just not the usuall 3x zerker units with matching rhino..) and khorne daemons. What would put in a 1000 point ish World eater detachment?
Well... I main Word Bearers, and my own answer to ‘what to put in a WE Detachment’ would be Berzerkers and maybe some Warp Talons. For a Khorne Daemonkin army that already has some Zerks hanging around, I’d look to fill some gaps in the Chaos Daemons arsenal.
Flying CSM Daemon Prince and three Oblit units fit in a LEGION Spearhead in a battleforged CHAOS army, have great synergy with Crimson Crown, net you +1CP, and come in well under 1K.
Juggerlord, 2 Decimators, and unit of Possessed will likewise fit in a LEGION Vanguard.
Probably squeeze a Heldrake in either and still fit in 1K for a first turn charge against some annoying gunner unit.
Hey all, could do with some advice. The following list is basically everything I have in my case for Nurgle (assembled and/or painted), where do I go from here to get to 2000? The list is two battalions and a Fortification network, so I’m out of detachments unless I change something. I’ve got a GUO and Rotigus but given the rest of the list I just expect them to get shot off turn one (unless I DS them, good idea perhaps?). Anyway, list is below and any help would be awesome.
Chaos Daemons
Poxbringer: Fleshy Abundance 70
Spoilpox Scrivener 75
Epidemius 100
Daemon Prince of Chaos: NURGLE; PSYKER; Disgustingly Resilient; Smite; Virulent Blessing ; Hellforged Sword and Malefic Talons; Wings 180
Daemon Prince of Chaos: NURGLE; PSYKER; Disgustingly Resilient; Smite; Miasma of Pestilence ; Hellforged Sword and Malefic Talons; Wings 180
take out the 10 plaguebearers and add some more plague drones or bilepiper helps with battle shock checks or another unit of nurglings if you want keep double battalion
Poxbingers haven't failed me this edition, they're simply awesome for their costs and I wouldn't leave home without at least two of them.
If you have a GUO/Rotigus already, definitely play them. They're great models and if your opponent concentrates on them then at least nowthing more vauable gets hit and your Plague Bearers or Drones have time to get into position.
Thenord wrote: Thanks for the input guys. Sounds very good. I would like to make a pure khorne daemon army. What would be must haves? Thirsters and skull Canons?
Would a World Eaters detachment made up of Daemon Princes, Juggerlords, Obliterators, Decimators and Heldrakes be out of the question? Or, perhaps, Alpha Legion with Possessed and/or Warp Talons thrown in?
.
They deffinetly wouldn't be out of the question. But wouldn't that cost me the 3 cp for being battleforged?
I was originally planning on 50/50 World eaters (just not the usuall 3x zerker units with matching rhino..) and khorne daemons. What would put in a 1000 point ish World eater detachment?
Well... I main Word Bearers, and my own answer to ‘what to put in a WE Detachment’ would be Berzerkers and maybe some Warp Talons. For a Khorne Daemonkin army that already has some Zerks hanging around, I’d look to fill some gaps in the Chaos Daemons arsenal.
Flying CSM Daemon Prince and three Oblit units fit in a LEGION Spearhead in a battleforged CHAOS army, have great synergy with Crimson Crown, net you +1CP, and come in well under 1K.
Juggerlord, 2 Decimators, and unit of Possessed will likewise fit in a LEGION Vanguard.
Probably squeeze a Heldrake in either and still fit in 1K for a first turn charge against some annoying gunner unit.
Thanks for the input again. Will deffinetly have to try out some different things Before I buy
If you can get a decent deal on a soul grinder, like 30 bucks, I think they are pretty nice for a fun unit. When you run one as khorne with a claw, they get like 12 attacks, and its always fun to roll a ton of attacks.
I know they don't do their worth of points when compared to bloodletters (what does? lol) but it's a nice big model, and used to be a very sweet, and huge model.
Hello, it's me again. I Think I've come up with a list I would like to build and play.
I don't have any Idea what the tactic would be, besides run forward and punch stuff.
What do you guys Think?
I play casual games mostly with a limit of max 2 detachment and no doubles
I'm considering refining my Slaanesh army by adding in some Defilers and whatnot in a CSM detachment, but am struggling to keep CP up.
I want to make Zarakynel work, but to be worth it she desperately needs a 3++ in the enemy shooting phase, which is the 2CP stratagem.
Is 9CP enough to make Zarakynel function plus having CP for neato stuff for the Defilers e.g. Daemonforge? I otherwise can't seem to squeeze in 2 battalions, a couple of defiliers, and Zarakynel with the premises I want.
My "Core" that I really enjoy running is Zarakynel, a Winged Daemon Prince with the Souleater relic (morathi model), a Herald of Slaanesh, and 60 Daemonettes in 3 units of 20 with instruments and icons. That comes out to 1407 points and 5CP (one BN and one Super Heavy Auxiliary).
I'm trying to fit in 2 Defilers and a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant at least - to add 30 cultists and another HQ puts me over 2k but keeps me at 13 CP. I am looking at just adding a 3rd tank/Daemon Engine (e.g. a cheapo autocannon pred or something as the 3rd heavy support), but I go down to 9 CP and I'm not certain 9 is enough...
...any other creative solutions beyond answering 'is 9cp enough' are welcome, but I really would like to continue to use Zarakynel because while she's overpriced, she's also awesome.
I'm considering refining my Slaanesh army by adding in some Defilers and whatnot in a CSM detachment, but am struggling to keep CP up.
I want to make Zarakynel work, but to be worth it she desperately needs a 3++ in the enemy shooting phase, which is the 2CP stratagem.
Is 9CP enough to make Zarakynel function plus having CP for neato stuff for the Defilers e.g. Daemonforge? I otherwise can't seem to squeeze in 2 battalions, a couple of defiliers, and Zarakynel with the premises I want.
My "Core" that I really enjoy running is Zarakynel, a Winged Daemon Prince with the Souleater relic (morathi model), a Herald of Slaanesh, and 60 Daemonettes in 3 units of 20 with instruments and icons. That comes out to 1407 points and 5CP (one BN and one Super Heavy Auxiliary).
I'm trying to fit in 2 Defilers and a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant at least - to add 30 cultists and another HQ puts me over 2k but keeps me at 13 CP. I am looking at just adding a 3rd tank/Daemon Engine (e.g. a cheapo autocannon pred or something as the 3rd heavy support), but I go down to 9 CP and I'm not certain 9 is enough...
...any other creative solutions beyond answering 'is 9cp enough' are welcome, but I really would like to continue to use Zarakynel because while she's overpriced, she's also awesome.
Well, just take a look at how much CP you want to spend on other stuff, and then look at what you're burning per turn.
On average, you're gonna be burning at least 3 CP a turn on +1 invuln, alongside the daemonforge stratagem on the defiler, as it's pretty much a must on it. That's 9 CP over the course of 3 turns, and that's ONLY if you use it for literally nothing else.
In my opinion, you're better off just either not running Zara, or deepstriking them so that your opponent doens't have a chance to really deal with them as they run up the board, saving you at least 2 CP.
I'm considering refining my Slaanesh army by adding in some Defilers and whatnot in a CSM detachment, but am struggling to keep CP up.
I want to make Zarakynel work, but to be worth it she desperately needs a 3++ in the enemy shooting phase, which is the 2CP stratagem.
Is 9CP enough to make Zarakynel function plus having CP for neato stuff for the Defilers e.g. Daemonforge? I otherwise can't seem to squeeze in 2 battalions, a couple of defiliers, and Zarakynel with the premises I want.
My "Core" that I really enjoy running is Zarakynel, a Winged Daemon Prince with the Souleater relic (morathi model), a Herald of Slaanesh, and 60 Daemonettes in 3 units of 20 with instruments and icons. That comes out to 1407 points and 5CP (one BN and one Super Heavy Auxiliary).
I'm trying to fit in 2 Defilers and a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant at least - to add 30 cultists and another HQ puts me over 2k but keeps me at 13 CP. I am looking at just adding a 3rd tank/Daemon Engine (e.g. a cheapo autocannon pred or something as the 3rd heavy support), but I go down to 9 CP and I'm not certain 9 is enough...
...any other creative solutions beyond answering 'is 9cp enough' are welcome, but I really would like to continue to use Zarakynel because while she's overpriced, she's also awesome.
Well, just take a look at how much CP you want to spend on other stuff, and then look at what you're burning per turn.
On average, you're gonna be burning at least 3 CP a turn on +1 invuln, alongside the daemonforge stratagem on the defiler, as it's pretty much a must on it. That's 9 CP over the course of 3 turns, and that's ONLY if you use it for literally nothing else.
In my opinion, you're better off just either not running Zara, or deepstriking them so that your opponent doens't have a chance to really deal with them as they run up the board, saving you at least 2 CP.
It's good to see that you agree that 9CP just isn't enough.
The problems with your solutions are:
Solution 1: I want to run Zarakynel. I know she's bad, and 206 points worse after Chapter Approved (460->666) but I love her.
Solution 2: Deep striking Zarakynel means I just spend the 2CP during deployment instead of Turn 1, and she has a /very/ high chance of getting into combat Turn 1, with a 15" move plus advance plus charge, if I just deploy her. It also means she can't arrive till turn 2, at least outside of my DZ. At that point I might as well summon her, it feels like.
I'm considering refining my Slaanesh army by adding in some Defilers and whatnot in a CSM detachment, but am struggling to keep CP up.
I want to make Zarakynel work, but to be worth it she desperately needs a 3++ in the enemy shooting phase, which is the 2CP stratagem.
Is 9CP enough to make Zarakynel function plus having CP for neato stuff for the Defilers e.g. Daemonforge? I otherwise can't seem to squeeze in 2 battalions, a couple of defiliers, and Zarakynel with the premises I want.
My "Core" that I really enjoy running is Zarakynel, a Winged Daemon Prince with the Souleater relic (morathi model), a Herald of Slaanesh, and 60 Daemonettes in 3 units of 20 with instruments and icons. That comes out to 1407 points and 5CP (one BN and one Super Heavy Auxiliary).
I'm trying to fit in 2 Defilers and a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant at least - to add 30 cultists and another HQ puts me over 2k but keeps me at 13 CP. I am looking at just adding a 3rd tank/Daemon Engine (e.g. a cheapo autocannon pred or something as the 3rd heavy support), but I go down to 9 CP and I'm not certain 9 is enough...
...any other creative solutions beyond answering 'is 9cp enough' are welcome, but I really would like to continue to use Zarakynel because while she's overpriced, she's also awesome.
Well, just take a look at how much CP you want to spend on other stuff, and then look at what you're burning per turn.
On average, you're gonna be burning at least 3 CP a turn on +1 invuln, alongside the daemonforge stratagem on the defiler, as it's pretty much a must on it. That's 9 CP over the course of 3 turns, and that's ONLY if you use it for literally nothing else.
In my opinion, you're better off just either not running Zara, or deepstriking them so that your opponent doens't have a chance to really deal with them as they run up the board, saving you at least 2 CP.
It's good to see that you agree that 9CP just isn't enough.
The problems with your solutions are:
Solution 1: I want to run Zarakynel. I know she's bad, and 206 points worse after Chapter Approved (460->666) but I love her.
Solution 2: Deep striking Zarakynel means I just spend the 2CP during deployment instead of Turn 1, and she has a /very/ high chance of getting into combat Turn 1, with a 15" move plus advance plus charge, if I just deploy her. It also means she can't arrive till turn 2, at least outside of my DZ. At that point I might as well summon her, it feels like.
Have you considered using her gorgeous model as just a standard keeper of secrets? And I do see your point about my solution being flawed. In general though, most Daemon armies or armies with daemons are VERY CP hungry. Their power improves durastically as you give them more CP to work with, so I do think it is highly worth it to try to fit in some more CP, even one more battalion would put you up to 14, which is pretty great.
The 2 Battalions gets me to 13, not 14. The 9 comes from one of the detachments being a Spearhead of Defilers, which would become a Battalion with defiliers ... if I could fit it in 2k.
And I have considered using her model as a KoS, but I'm actually even less impressed with Zarakynel then. She may be bad at 666 points, but at least on the table when the chits are down she's got some really good stats and weapons. The only thing the KoS brings to the table is the -1 to hit caused by bashin enemies in the face with the sword... everything else is just worse than the other Greater Daemons.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The 2 Battalions gets me to 13, not 14. The 9 comes from one of the detachments being a Spearhead of Defilers, which would become a Battalion with defiliers ... if I could fit it in 2k.
And I have considered using her model as a KoS, but I'm actually even less impressed with Zarakynel then. She may be bad at 666 points, but at least on the table when the chits are down she's got some really good stats and weapons. The only thing the KoS brings to the table is the -1 to hit caused by bashin enemies in the face with the sword... everything else is just worse than the other Greater Daemons.
Worse? Yeah, if you just put a bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One and Keeper of Secrets on the board. But the Keeper is pretty much a clear 100 points cheaper than the others. Sure, it doesn't bring a booming force to the table...But it costs as much as your defiler.
Warpsmiths are pretty great utility models that don't cost much, plus fit in with the Dark Mech thing going on with this detachment. I have to assume the defilers rampage far away from them, but their heal isn't useless on the big guys (and I think they can do it while advancing IIRC). Also cost the daemonettes' icons, not sure if you were using those for something beyond the lucky 1 respawn? I.e. I don't know what the Slaanesh relic icon does
EDIT: Capped out 2k by giving a warpsmith a combi-bolter instead of pistol
Unit1126PLL wrote: The 2 Battalions gets me to 13, not 14. The 9 comes from one of the detachments being a Spearhead of Defilers, which would become a Battalion with defiliers ... if I could fit it in 2k.
And I have considered using her model as a KoS, but I'm actually even less impressed with Zarakynel then. She may be bad at 666 points, but at least on the table when the chits are down she's got some really good stats and weapons. The only thing the KoS brings to the table is the -1 to hit caused by bashin enemies in the face with the sword... everything else is just worse than the other Greater Daemons.
Worse? Yeah, if you just put a bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One and Keeper of Secrets on the board. But the Keeper is pretty much a clear 100 points cheaper than the others. Sure, it doesn't bring a booming force to the table...But it costs as much as your defiler.
Well, I want her to be awesome. She's the leader of my Courante Legion of Slaanesh Daemons, and at least Zarakynel doesn't die like a chump to the firepower of a single Leman Russ variant. Sure, it's cheap, but "cheap and expendable" is not what I'd like my super-awesome warlord to be. I play my Guard if I want that.
Boss Salvage wrote:
vaklor4 wrote:I'd skip the Crushers, and either add more HQs, Flesh hounds if they're bringing psykers, or just plain more Letters.
*EDIT* Sorry, I didn't see it was a brigade, I posted that reply on VERY little energy
Honestly after making the brigade happen I stopped and wondered if double battalions isn't just better. Because I too don't like 'crushers
As for the Zarakynel + defiler bros teamup list, are you ok with losing the Abeyant? I cut deep and got this:
Warpsmiths are pretty great utility models that don't cost much, plus fit in with the Dark Mech thing going on with this detachment. I have to assume the defilers rampage far away from them, but their heal isn't useless on the big guys (and I think they can do it while advancing IIRC). Also cost the daemonettes' icons, not sure if you were using those for something beyond the lucky 1 respawn? I.e. I don't know what the Slaanesh relic icon does
- Salvage
Hmm, that actually looks pretty good. I am pretty addicted to the idea of the Abeyant and Hellwright (using this model for my Slaanesh hellwright) and an Abeyant from 30k that I have for my 30k traitor Cybernetica army. I suppose I could tolerate the change, though can a Sorcerer sub in for one of the repair boyos? I was considering having a sorcerer for Death Hex, since invuln saves are a problem, if I had my 'druthers.
I did like the Icons for the random "return models on a roll of a 1" - that's really all I was using them for. Not worth it, in your opinion?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Hmm, that actually looks pretty good. I am pretty addicted to the idea of the Abeyant and Hellwright (using this model for my Slaanesh hellwright) and an Abeyant from 30k that I have for my 30k traitor Cybernetica army. I suppose I could tolerate the change, though can a Sorcerer sub in for one of the repair boyos? I was considering having a sorcerer for Death Hex, since invuln saves are a problem, if I had my 'druthers.
I did like the Icons for the random "return models on a roll of a 1" - that's really all I was using them for. Not worth it, in your opinion?
Mmm, them nekkid tech chicks ...
Budget warpsmiths are 76 a pop, and sorcerers start @ 98, with the only cheaper HQs being naked lords @ 74 or exalted champs @ 70 (either sort of help the defilers when not daemonforging). At the moment the only points left to cut are the daemonette instruments, which I feel are pretty clutch for their points, but they could certainly be chopped. After dropping those you could totally get the sorcerer plus a cheap HQ with some kind of combat weapon (lord w/ power fist for example, help with them rerolls + punch stuff).
I'm a fan of the lucky 1's with the icon, but I'm also coming to terms with it being expendable if I need to make points. Honestly it's more about looking good on the table and providing a fun gimmick when it comes to icons, instruments seem more useful.
EDIT: How much is a Chaos Hellwright without Abeyant? All I can find digging is that they went up 20 points with CA (and are basically warpsmiths with better stats).
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon
Skull Cannon
----------------------------------------------
1998 || 15 CP (-1 for extra relic)
That's a lot of CP! To help MSU Kr0n do whatever it does! (Play for objectives + burn CP protecting the thirster?)
- Salvage
Thank you for the input!
You make a Very solid point. So I Guess it's a matter of having a few slightly inferrior units (crushers) but a whole lotta CP, or having fewer CP but only the best units? Wich do you think will work better?
Unit1126PLL wrote: The 2 Battalions gets me to 13, not 14. The 9 comes from one of the detachments being a Spearhead of Defilers, which would become a Battalion with defiliers ... if I could fit it in 2k.
And I have considered using her model as a KoS, but I'm actually even less impressed with Zarakynel then. She may be bad at 666 points, but at least on the table when the chits are down she's got some really good stats and weapons. The only thing the KoS brings to the table is the -1 to hit caused by bashin enemies in the face with the sword... everything else is just worse than the other Greater Daemons.
Don't forget that the KOS can wield the Soulstealer. Wade a KOS into chaff and you will regain a good number of wounds.
As for making Zarak work, I agree with deep striking her and then paying the CP from there on out. I don't consider her to be bad. She just costs too much. If she wades into something it is very likely to die. Combined with her natural minus to leadership, giving her the psychic powers to minus leadership even further + the psychic power that deals mortal wounds based on that is pretty sweet. You can actually really hurt tanks with that as well.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Hmm, that actually looks pretty good. I am pretty addicted to the idea of the Abeyant and Hellwright (using this model for my Slaanesh hellwright) and an Abeyant from 30k that I have for my 30k traitor Cybernetica army. I suppose I could tolerate the change, though can a Sorcerer sub in for one of the repair boyos? I was considering having a sorcerer for Death Hex, since invuln saves are a problem, if I had my 'druthers.
I did like the Icons for the random "return models on a roll of a 1" - that's really all I was using them for. Not worth it, in your opinion?
Mmm, them nekkid tech chicks ...
Budget warpsmiths are 76 a pop, and sorcerers start @ 98, with the only cheaper HQs being naked lords @ 74 or exalted champs @ 70 (either sort of help the defilers when not daemonforging). At the moment the only points left to cut are the daemonette instruments, which I feel are pretty clutch for their points, but they could certainly be chopped. After dropping those you could totally get the sorcerer plus a cheap HQ with some kind of combat weapon (lord w/ power fist for example, help with them rerolls + punch stuff).
I'm a fan of the lucky 1's with the icon, but I'm also coming to terms with it being expendable if I need to make points. Honestly it's more about looking good on the table and providing a fun gimmick when it comes to icons, instruments seem more useful.
EDIT: How much is a Chaos Hellwright without Abeyant? All I can find digging is that they went up 20 points with CA (and are basically warpsmiths with better stats).
- Salvage
I can do with 2 Warpsmiths if I must. At least the meltaguns and flamers are Assault, and can be fired while they advance with the Defilers. A naked Hellwright without abeyant is 45 points cheaper, since it has no Warpfire Lance and the base cost goes down 10.
ArmchairArbiter wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: The 2 Battalions gets me to 13, not 14. The 9 comes from one of the detachments being a Spearhead of Defilers, which would become a Battalion with defiliers ... if I could fit it in 2k.
And I have considered using her model as a KoS, but I'm actually even less impressed with Zarakynel then. She may be bad at 666 points, but at least on the table when the chits are down she's got some really good stats and weapons. The only thing the KoS brings to the table is the -1 to hit caused by bashin enemies in the face with the sword... everything else is just worse than the other Greater Daemons.
Don't forget that the KOS can wield the Soulstealer. Wade a KOS into chaff and you will regain a good number of wounds.
As for making Zarak work, I agree with deep striking her and then paying the CP from there on out. I don't consider her to be bad. She just costs too much. If she wades into something it is very likely to die. Combined with her natural minus to leadership, giving her the psychic powers to minus leadership even further + the psychic power that deals mortal wounds based on that is pretty sweet. You can actually really hurt tanks with that as well.
I use Soulstealer on my Daemon Prince, because my DP is far more durable than any KOS will ever be thanks to being a Character with <10 wounds. They're basically guaranteed to be in combat, while a KOS gets insta-nuked by damn near anything.
I don't like deep-striking Zarakynel. She has to do it in her Deployment Zone if she does it Turn 1, and if she waits till Turn 2, then she's already missed out on a turn of combat. Plus, the Deep Strike Stratagem costs exactly the same CP as the Warp Surge stratagem, which mean's I'm not really saving anything. But yes, she's pretty badass. I think with the Codex she'd be fine at 460 - but going up to 666 was unnecessary without further buffs.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I can do with 2 Warpsmiths if I must. At least the meltaguns and flamers are Assault, and can be fired while they advance with the Defilers.
I think that's the play. Decent cheap characters who fit the theme, help the defilers along plus put out some heat while they're at it - including advance + Machine Curse if they can't stay within 1" of their charges. (Also note my tweak to hit 2k by giving a warpsmith a combi-bolter. 24" daemon shell delivery too )
As for the Khorne Brigade, MSU Khorne is pretty interesting and just might work. But I have to think splitting it into two battalions, consolidating or dropping the 'crushers and picking up another DP, skullmaster, etc is a better move overall? Not really sure where you'd want to take the list. And 'crushers might not be as bad as I think
How do I better deal with Knights on a Tzeench pink horror list?
I've been trying to surround them with pinks but since they can simply fall back and still shoot it gets really tricky and they just pummel my LoC to death.
I'm using around 50 to 70 pinks with Exalted Flamers, Demon Prince, Herald and LoC with Impossible Robe.
In my opinion you may as well just run 2 detachments of battalion khorne daemons, and lose out on that 2 extra CP from the brigade. 9 Bloodcrushers is a HILARIOUS investment for 2 CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
arhurt wrote: How do I better deal with Knights on a Tzeench pink horror list?
I've been trying to surround them with pinks but since they can simply fall back and still shoot it gets really tricky and they just pummel my LoC to death.
I'm using around 50 to 70 pinks with Exalted Flamers, Demon Prince, Herald and LoC with Impossible Robe.
Daemon Princes with axes are pretty great anti-heavy, alternatively just getting MORE exalted flamers works too.
Thanks again guys. I think I'm gonna run the brigade list. Since the Club I play in has a house rule of only 1 of each detachments, so no double batallion. For the most part, people play with mediocore lists. Not OP and not weak.
I come from palying GK, so I guess I can't do worse with a mono khorne army? :p
Thenord wrote: Thanks again guys. I think I'm gonna run the brigade list. Since the Club I play in has a house rule of only 1 of each detachments, so no double batallion. For the most part, people play with mediocore lists. Not OP and not weak.
I come from palying GK, so I guess I can't do worse with a mono khorne army? :p
Good luck! I'd be interested to hear how it goes. Fun thing about so many CP and so few high value targets is that you really can just keep warp surging the thirster to a 3++ every turn he's alive - and still have CP leftover! Not bad.
Thenord wrote: Thanks again guys. I think I'm gonna run the brigade list. Since the Club I play in has a house rule of only 1 of each detachments, so no double batallion. For the most part, people play with mediocore lists. Not OP and not weak.
I come from palying GK, so I guess I can't do worse with a mono khorne army? :p
Good luck! I'd be interested to hear how it goes. Fun thing about so many CP and so few high value targets is that you really can just keep warp surging the thirster to a 3++ every turn he's alive - and still have CP leftover! Not bad.
- Salvage
Thanks man.
I'll try to make some updates on how the army works, and how it's Coming along. Al though it'll take some time Before I've bought and painted everything. The first 500 points of khorne is ordered and on it's way.
Someone know how to bring Astra Militarum down with daemons? I play Tzeentch but got some khorne too. Allies in CSM oblits but even with reroll 1 to hit and to wound I got obliterated... 30pinks T1 with maybe 5 from another unit. Failed a charge 5” with Khorne DP my T1 so in his T2 my DP second unit pinks,my fluxmaster and an Eflamer got killed.
Dropping in 3 units of oblits, charge guards, bullgryns and a commander but only wounding 2 of 5 tanks and killing of the bullgryns... His T3 killing my 2DP all oblits so I gave up.
Fun game but all that firepower got me thinking. Am i playing with wrong units in total or, are the Astra this crazy strong?
Someone know Daemons and how to counter astras brutally firepower. Deep strike to kill screen seems like a no no. And I don’t play nurgel or Slaanesh..
Tazberry wrote: Someone know how to bring Astra Militarum down with daemons? I play Tzeentch but got some khorne too. Allies in CSM oblits but even with reroll 1 to hit and to wound I got obliterated... 30pinks T1 with maybe 5 from another unit. Failed a charge 5” with Khorne DP my T1 so in his T2 my DP second unit pinks,my fluxmaster and an Eflamer got killed.
Dropping in 3 units of oblits, charge guards, bullgryns and a commander but only wounding 2 of 5 tanks and killing of the bullgryns... His T3 killing my 2DP all oblits so I gave up.
Fun game but all that firepower got me thinking. Am i playing with wrong units in total or, are the Astra this crazy strong?
Someone know Daemons and how to counter astras brutally firepower. Deep strike to kill screen seems like a no no. And I don’t play nurgel or Slaanesh..
IME the best daemon chaff clearers are daemonettes, seekers, and horrors with appropriate heralds, spells, and buffs. I'd personally drop a unit of obliterators and maybe the exalted flamer for another blob of pinks for more shots and relatively durable infantry. Another good trick i find is to save 40-80 points for a pink blob to give 10-20 ablative wounds via splitting to retain the +1 attack for 20+ models buff. I personally have had luck casually with slaanesh seekers, fiends, and furies getting into melee with tanks and bogging them down relatively quickly (mobility and/or fly to avoid screens). maybe you can try someting similar with screamers?
Tazberry wrote: Someone know how to bring Astra Militarum down with daemons? I play Tzeentch but got some khorne too. Allies in CSM oblits but even with reroll 1 to hit and to wound I got obliterated... 30pinks T1 with maybe 5 from another unit. Failed a charge 5” with Khorne DP my T1 so in his T2 my DP second unit pinks,my fluxmaster and an Eflamer got killed.
Dropping in 3 units of oblits, charge guards, bullgryns and a commander but only wounding 2 of 5 tanks and killing of the bullgryns... His T3 killing my 2DP all oblits so I gave up.
Fun game but all that firepower got me thinking. Am i playing with wrong units in total or, are the Astra this crazy strong?
Someone know Daemons and how to counter astras brutally firepower. Deep strike to kill screen seems like a no no. And I don’t play nurgel or Slaanesh..
Pink horrors can deal with guardsmen pretty easily, and exalted flamers can hide behind pink blobs to be your anti tank
Hi,
my list is ready and painted, 1250 Nurgle. Now i need some advices from more trained players than me
My list:
Battallion
Poxbringer
Prince Wings Talons
30 Plaguebearers
4x Nurglings
4x Nurglings
7 Drones
Battallion
Scrivener
Bilepiper
Nurglings
Nurglings (for the rest of the points)
Nurglings
Im not at home, so i cant remember exacly the list, but should be okay, maybe 1 more drone or something like that.
First: what do you think about the list? I played it 1 time against admech and the Nurglings were amazing. The bearers are to slow in my opinion...the prince + Drones were amazing too, combined with stratagems / psi.
Second: i need help to select the powers, which one on which character, then i struggle in deployment. Should i summon something or deepstrike? Prince with Drones oder alone? Bilepiper couldnt reach the nurglings cause of there special deployment etc.
Maybe someone can teach me the demon basics Just 4 different type of units but so many possibilities...
i hope you can help me
(English isnt my first language, so dont judge me please )
Got a good top 5 placing in a recent 40+ strong tourney with Nurgle Daemons.
Took a GUO, who died in one/5 games (after killing morty), here's my thoughts on him.
Mine was kitted with Bilesword and Bileblade.
Bilesword beats out the Bell. Bell is only really viable for a summoning list, the +1 model back on a 4+ is not good enough alone to lose the combat stats of the Sword.
Bileblade beats out the flail. 2 powers at +1 cast is too valuable to lose and really the whole point of taking him. You need every chance of Miasma and Virulence going off (which should be your two powers incidentally). I tried Nurgles' Rot in place of Misasma in the tourney ( a poxbringer had misama) but didn't end up casting it once - too situational.
Also double batt may not be the way to go as I was outdropped every game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Bluthusten wrote: Hi,
my list is ready and painted, 1250 Nurgle. Now i need some advices from more trained players than me
My list:
Battallion
Poxbringer
Prince Wings Talons
30 Plaguebearers
4x Nurglings
4x Nurglings
7 Drones
Battallion
Scrivener
Bilepiper
Nurglings
Nurglings (for the rest of the points)
Nurglings
Im not at home, so i cant remember exacly the list, but should be okay, maybe 1 more drone or something like that.
First: what do you think about the list? I played it 1 time against admech and the Nurglings were amazing. The bearers are to slow in my opinion...the prince + Drones were amazing too, combined with stratagems / psi.
Second: i need help to select the powers, which one on which character, then i struggle in deployment. Should i summon something or deepstrike? Prince with Drones oder alone? Bilepiper couldnt reach the nurglings cause of there special deployment etc.
Maybe someone can teach me the demon basics Just 4 different type of units but so many possibilities...
i hope you can help me
(English isnt my first language, so dont judge me please )
I'd go with Miasma on the Poxbringer and Virulent Blessing on the Prince.
This way you can look to keep the Pox out of deny range and your low roll 6/7 Miasmas will still go through.
Virulent Blessing needs 7 so you keep it on the Prince who will be in deny range and spend your CP reroll on this power to.give it max chance of success. Cast VB first to see if you need reroll or not, if not it's available for the Poxbringer incase you roll up a 4 or whatever.
You have loads of CP and nurglings to screen so holding the Plagues and Drones in reserve is an option and might work well. But probably keep the Plagues on the board with Miasma up and the Drnes in reserve will be the best play. Plagues arent slow with the Spoilpox and banner using their rules for 7 move and +1 to charge/advance.
What was your list for the tourney and how did it play? And what did you face? Also any thoughts on Rotigus instead of a standard GUO? All the questions!
Vomikron Noxis wrote: What was your list for the tourney and how did it play? And what did you face? Also any thoughts on Rotigus instead of a standard GUO? All the questions!
One unit of Plagues, 1x9 Drones, 5x3 Nurglings, Triherald, GUO, 2 winged DP and a solitary beast.
I played Eldar(2), Drukhari(14) Deathguard(4) Tyranids(13) and Nurgle Daemons (8) in a mirror match. Brackets are placings, so all tough games, all wins but no blowouts - the Nurgle Daemons way. Dodging the winner helped as his list rips mine (played a lot in practice).
I don't really like Rotigus as he loses +1 to cast off Bileblade in exchange for his extra attack abilities which may not impact the game all that much as getting a key power denied. The brackish filth is 'nice' but 7" hurts hard.
The flat 3 damage gnarlrod isn't all that bad for consistency compared to D6. Good if you're fighting invuls and 3+/4++ types but missing -3 for -1 I feel leads to more swingy situations than D6 for damage.
I don't really like Epi without shooting Oblits/Daemon engines.
I don't think you can take a relic in the daemon detachment. The relic rules for daemons state:
"If your army is lead by a warlord with the DAEMON faction keyword, you may give one of the following to a DAEMON CHARACTER in your army.
So you cannot have a warlord trait on a chaos lord, and a chaos daemons relic. Does the stratagem bypass that rule on the relics page? EDIT: someone explained it to me.
That army does look really fun though. I would like to try it out.
For CC, why not give the warlord a combi bolter? Surely it's better than the pistol.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: What was your list for the tourney and how did it play? And what did you face? Also any thoughts on Rotigus instead of a standard GUO? All the questions!
One unit of Plagues, 1x9 Drones, 5x3 Nurglings, Triherald, GUO, 2 winged DP and a solitary beast.
I played Eldar(2), Drukhari(14) Deathguard(4) Tyranids(13) and Nurgle Daemons (8) in a mirror match. Brackets are placings, so all tough games, all wins but no blowouts - the Nurgle Daemons way. Dodging the winner helped as his list rips mine (played a lot in practice).
I don't really like Rotigus as he loses +1 to cast off Bileblade in exchange for his extra attack abilities which may not impact the game all that much as getting a key power denied. The brackish filth is 'nice' but 7" hurts hard.
The flat 3 damage gnarlrod isn't all that bad for consistency compared to D6. Good if you're fighting invuls and 3+/4++ types but missing -3 for -1 I feel leads to more swingy situations than D6 for damage.
I don't really like Epi without shooting Oblits/Daemon engines.
Cool, thanks for the update. Did you DS the GUO or make him waddle?
I'm having some decision making trouble here - i have a game against a moderate Alpha Legion player on saturday & was thinking to c**k-block his deepstrike shenanigans with some,
appropriately enough, slaanesh fun. I play a very fast Renegade Chapter CSM & Slaanesh Daemon list & thought to add some gimmicks to make his life a bit more miserable, because EXCESS!
But i'm stuck..
Currently, i have this:
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Renegade Chapters
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord on Bike: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Mark of Slaanesh, Power axe
Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh: Combi-bolter, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Lashing tongue on Steed of Slaanesh, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, No Chaos Mark
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Daemon Prince of Chaos: Bewitching Aura, Malefic talon, The Forbidden Gem, Warlord
Slaanesh: Hysterical Frenzy
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed: Pavane of Slaanesh
+ Elites +
Fiends of Slaanesh: Fiend of Slaanesh
Fiends of Slaanesh: Fiend of Slaanesh
Fiends of Slaanesh: Fiend of Slaanesh
The real problem is, i don't know if the Daemon prince is maybe better in the CSM detachment, replacing the Biker Lord (giving him maybe the Elixir) and instead adding the Masque (for the +1 to hit thingy) or a second
Herald with the Bewitching Aura & Gem. Or should i deck the Prince out for CQC entirely (i.e. Mark of Excess, Murderdance & Claws + Wings) and use a dirt cheap Lord instead? The Sorc on boobsnake is just to keep
up with the rest of the army - i know its not efficient. What should i do (i can't ditch the CSM, not enough cultists models)
Vomikron Noxis wrote: What was your list for the tourney and how did it play? And what did you face? Also any thoughts on Rotigus instead of a standard GUO? All the questions!
One unit of Plagues, 1x9 Drones, 5x3 Nurglings, Triherald, GUO, 2 winged DP and a solitary beast.
I played Eldar(2), Drukhari(14) Deathguard(4) Tyranids(13) and Nurgle Daemons (8) in a mirror match. Brackets are placings, so all tough games, all wins but no blowouts - the Nurgle Daemons way. Dodging the winner helped as his list rips mine (played a lot in practice).
I don't really like Rotigus as he loses +1 to cast off Bileblade in exchange for his extra attack abilities which may not impact the game all that much as getting a key power denied. The brackish filth is 'nice' but 7" hurts hard.
The flat 3 damage gnarlrod isn't all that bad for consistency compared to D6. Good if you're fighting invuls and 3+/4++ types but missing -3 for -1 I feel leads to more swingy situations than D6 for damage.
I don't really like Epi without shooting Oblits/Daemon engines.
hello may i ask what that eldar played? i found always problems with wave spamming eldars with nurgle demons, thx
Vomikron Noxis 727803 10020016 33a7e5b50b333f3e1f1e3fda5802cb0a.jpg wrote:What was your list for the tourney and how did it play? And what did you face? Also any thoughts on Rotigus instead of a standard GUO? All the questions!
One unit of Plagues, 1x9 Drones, 5x3 Nurglings, Triherald, GUO, 2 winged DP and a solitary beast.
I played Eldar(2), Drukhari(14) Deathguard(4) Tyranids(13) and Nurgle Daemons (8) in a mirror match. Brackets are placings, so all tough games, all wins but no blowouts - the Nurgle Daemons way. Dodging the winner helped as his list rips mine (played a lot in practice).
I don't really like Rotigus as he loses +1 to cast off Bileblade in exchange for his extra attack abilities which may not impact the game all that much as getting a key power denied. The brackish filth is 'nice' but 7" hurts hard.
The flat 3 damage gnarlrod isn't all that bad for consistency compared to D6. Good if you're fighting invuls and 3+/4++ types but missing -3 for -1 I feel leads to more swingy situations than D6 for damage.
I don't really like Epi without shooting Oblits/Daemon engines.
Cool, thanks for the update. Did you DS the GUO or make him waddle?
Deepstrike vs Eldar, DE and Tyranids(and Drones). Waddle vs DG and Chaos Daemons.
Eldar had 2 serpents, 1 crimson, 20 Guards/10 Guards/5 rangers, reapers hawks spears eldrad bikelock bikeautarch. Ulthwe. Didn't kill the vehicles.
ty for the infos, the fact is not kill the wave, is he can move wherever he want and drop units inside when he want, he have the initiative during the game.
So a quick question, can you build a decently playable list from pure Khorne daemons? By decently playable I mean that I don't have to table Eldar or IG but would like to have a good chance of a fun game most of the time.
It's a bonus if that same list can be played in AoS.
Weazel wrote: So a quick question, can you build a decently playable list from pure Khorne daemons? By decently playable I mean that I don't have to table Eldar or IG but would like to have a good chance of a fun game most of the time.
It's a bonus if that same list can be played in AoS.
Better than my mono-Slaanesh!
BY THE WAY:
anyone have any reason why a soul-grinder might be better than a defiler? I want to use a SG but every time I look at it I'm like "hey, neato defiler analogue" and then when I see it's like 50% more expensive I'm like "PFPFPERPERPGJGAI P AEOW "
and that's the story of how I became a chaos spawn.
Only thing I could see soul grinder being OK at, is a deep strike distraction carnifex. There are plenty of better daemons for that job though, even a footslogging daemon prince.
Defilers are always better, even deepstriking a soul grinder isnt fantastic, because if youre getting something THAT big that close, you may as well deepstrike a BT instead.
Fluff << Crunch. Especially in competitive play. I've got a couple of friends who are very good players and they like lists kind of like that, but instead of plaguebearers, they take Tzaangor blobs and Bloodletters. Plus like 3 Tzaangor Shamans. It's gross.
yes very close to what im playing now, i m just trying a Dg outrider instead of 2nd battalion, but works practically same way. I just played 1 less exalted +poxbringer and 1 more nurgle demon Dp.
where that list come from?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: Fluff << Crunch. Especially in competitive play. I've got a couple of friends who are very good players and they like lists kind of like that, but instead of plaguebearers, they take Tzaangor blobs and Bloodletters. Plus like 3 Tzaangor Shamans. It's gross.
yes but Pb gives you the resilience you need to protect so many characters, and dont underestimate the damage Pb can deal, locus of N+spoilpox+virulent blessing+Dp's reroll of 1's+rerolling any wound, they deal lot of multi wounds hits. Now instead of double battalion i play Dg outrider with 3 bloated drones and Dg Dp, it add some firepower i lost 1 prince and 30 Pb but i still feel is very competitive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: what you guys think about a list with a N demon battalion (with 2 Dp's) and Mortarion+Magnus, or a N demons battalion+Ts supreme (Magnus and dp's) and Morty?
a thing like
2x N Dp spoilpox
30 plague
3x3 nurglings
8 drones of Nurgle
Mortarion
Magnus
OR
spolipox
poxbringer
29 plaguebearers
3 drones of N
ZergSmasher wrote: Fluff << Crunch. Especially in competitive play. I've got a couple of friends who are very good players and they like lists kind of like that, but instead of plaguebearers, they take Tzaangor blobs and Bloodletters. Plus like 3 Tzaangor Shamans. It's gross.
yes but Pb gives you the resilience you need to protect so many characters, and dont underestimate the damage Pb can deal, locus of N+spoilpox+virulent blessing+Dp's reroll of 1's+rerolling any wound, they deal lot of multi wounds hits. Now instead of double battalion i play Dg outrider with 3 bloated drones and Dg Dp, it add some firepower i lost 1 prince and 30 Pb but i still feel is very competitive.
Oh, don't misunderstand me, I know Plaguebearers are good. I was just pointing out another variant of a similar style of list, with big hordes of guys supported by Tsons characters. I would probably rather run the Plaguebearer variant myself, in fact.
ZergSmasher wrote: Fluff << Crunch. Especially in competitive play. I've got a couple of friends who are very good players and they like lists kind of like that, but instead of plaguebearers, they take Tzaangor blobs and Bloodletters. Plus like 3 Tzaangor Shamans. It's gross.
yes but Pb gives you the resilience you need to protect so many characters, and dont underestimate the damage Pb can deal, locus of N+spoilpox+virulent blessing+Dp's reroll of 1's+rerolling any wound, they deal lot of multi wounds hits. Now instead of double battalion i play Dg outrider with 3 bloated drones and Dg Dp, it add some firepower i lost 1 prince and 30 Pb but i still feel is very competitive.
Oh, don't misunderstand me, I know Plaguebearers are good. I was just pointing out another variant of a similar style of list, with big hordes of guys supported by Tsons characters. I would probably rather run the Plaguebearer variant myself, in fact.
I'm loving PB's myself, and really am thinking of steering my competitive army toward plaguebearers and nurglings as my troops choices. Both are so damn good, and for around 600 points you can fill 2 battalion troop slots (4 nurgling units of 3, 2 units of PB's with full kit). PB's get even better if you take the Horn of Nurgles Rot relic, plus a piper and scrivener. I'm also tempted to get a GUO to run as a buffer; miasma and virulence are both extremely good on PB's.
yes i used double N demons battalion but i didn't have Dg i had a Ts supreme command, got 2nd in a 30 player tournament short for a bunch of point from 1st place
blackmage wrote: yes i used double N demons battalion but i didn't have Dg i had a Ts supreme command, got 2nd in a 30 player tournament short for a bunch of point from 1st place
I'm almost thinking of running Magnus as a 1k sons detachment. Hes really, really good, and for the same cost as 2 demon princes and ahriman.
Just a thought, facing the eldar list I did with 30 rangers and Illiac, characters aren't as safe as I once figured
problem with Magnus is he will be focused quickly, you cant hide it like 2 demon princes, and lose a dp is a thing, lose turn 1 Magnus is a problem, btw Magnus is sure a great model.
could try a thing like not sure if worth
N Dp with wings
spoilpox
poxbringer
3x3 nurglins
30 plaguebearers
8 N drones
blackmage wrote: problem with Magnus is he will be focused quickly, you cant hide it like 2 demon princes, and lose a dp is a thing, lose turn 1 Magnus is a problem, btw Magnus is sure a great model.
could try a thing like not sure if worth
N Dp with wings
spoilpox
poxbringer
3x3 nurglins
30 plaguebearers
8 N drones
Ahriman
2x Ts Dp's with wings
Magnus
I am a huge fans of pbcs, i would probably put that in place of the 1k sons det. Almost thinking a GUO and Magnus... sole reason is because both are massive threats and will take a lot to take down. Magnus will obviously get focused turn 1, but he can run with the drones (which i hear are incredible) and has some fantastic utility. But yes, its a lot of eggs in one basket. Just thinking up some ideas. I literally cannot fathom taking nurgle demons without epidemus now, hes just that good haha
blackmage wrote: problem with Magnus is he will be focused quickly, you cant hide it like 2 demon princes, and lose a dp is a thing, lose turn 1 Magnus is a problem, btw Magnus is sure a great model.
could try a thing like not sure if worth
N Dp with wings
spoilpox
poxbringer
3x3 nurglins
30 plaguebearers
8 N drones
Ahriman
2x Ts Dp's with wings
Magnus
I am a huge fans of pbcs, i would probably put that in place of the 1k sons det. Almost thinking a GUO and Magnus... sole reason is because both are massive threats and will take a lot to take down. Magnus will obviously get focused turn 1, but he can run with the drones (which i hear are incredible) and has some fantastic utility. But yes, its a lot of eggs in one basket. Just thinking up some ideas. I literally cannot fathom taking nurgle demons without epidemus now, hes just that good haha
Since the nerf, Magnus will rarely survive the first turn of shooting unless your opponent is new to the game. You are better off taking daemon princes that can hide behind units.
blackmage wrote: problem with Magnus is he will be focused quickly, you cant hide it like 2 demon princes, and lose a dp is a thing, lose turn 1 Magnus is a problem, btw Magnus is sure a great model.
could try a thing like not sure if worth
N Dp with wings
spoilpox
poxbringer
3x3 nurglins
30 plaguebearers
8 N drones
Ahriman
2x Ts Dp's with wings
Magnus
I am a huge fans of pbcs, i would probably put that in place of the 1k sons det. Almost thinking a GUO and Magnus... sole reason is because both are massive threats and will take a lot to take down. Magnus will obviously get focused turn 1, but he can run with the drones (which i hear are incredible) and has some fantastic utility. But yes, its a lot of eggs in one basket. Just thinking up some ideas. I literally cannot fathom taking nurgle demons without epidemus now, hes just that good haha
Since the nerf, Magnus will rarely survive the first turn of shooting unless your opponent is new to the game. You are better off taking daemon princes that can hide behind units.
i always play dp's anyway if you focus Magnus you let my whole army intact and that's not a good new, i still have 3 princes Ahriman and ton of resilient bodies, dont underestimate 8 droned and 3 princes+ahriman, and least but not last if Magnus survive usually is gg. i agree play Magnus now is like play the lottery.
Zid wrote: Magnus will obviously get focused turn 1
And every competitive army will drop him without any problem (my Imperial Guard, for example, will shred Magnus to pieces). If you want a really tough fire-magnet, just take LoC with the Impossible Robe and boost its save to 2++. The beast can tank a whole Tau army or Guilliman's parking lot for two or more turns (from personal experience) and do some psychic damage as well.
Thenord wrote: What bloodthirster would you guys use for a mono khorne brigade list? I'm thinking unfettered fury; cool shooting and nice damage table..?
Cheers
If I were to break down and use a Bloodthirster I would take the guy with the big axe, give him Armour of Scorn, and use Warp Surge on him every chance I got.
arhurt wrote: How do I better deal with Knights on a Tzeench pink horror list?
I've been trying to surround them with pinks but since they can simply fall back and still shoot it gets really tricky and they just pummel my LoC to death.
I'm using around 50 to 70 pinks with Exalted Flamers, Demon Prince, Herald and LoC with Impossible Robe.
Any reason why you are charging them? I would imagine 12 stomp attack hurts pinks more than pinks hit knight in h2h. And as you noted short of huge swarm he just goes awav. So all that seems to accomplish is give him more stomp attacks. If you just surround but don't charge at least he gets less stomp attacks and can charge only pinks. If you charge he stomps and can fall back and charge meatier target
not easy deal with Ik with Tzeentch, you dont have firepower enough to take them down your CaC (beside Dp's) is ridicolous, Gd are wrecked apart by Ik, i think you can just try to win the mission, im not sure how you can deal with multiple Ik
RE: Magnus, I've found DS him with the Daemon strat keeps him out of harms way, still a bullet magnet but allows the rest of your army to maneuver. Worth trying
Thenord wrote: What bloodthirster would you guys use for a mono khorne brigade list? I'm thinking unfettered fury; cool shooting and nice damage table..?
Cheers
If I were to break down and use a Bloodthirster I would take the guy with the big axe, give him Armour of Scorn, and use Warp Surge on him every chance I got.
I take it that you think the 'thirster is a subpar choice? thanks for the reply.
TommyBoy13 wrote: RE: Magnus, I've found DS him with the Daemon strat keeps him out of harms way, still a bullet magnet but allows the rest of your army to maneuver. Worth trying
TommyBoy13 wrote: RE: Magnus, I've found DS him with the Daemon strat keeps him out of harms way, still a bullet magnet but allows the rest of your army to maneuver. Worth trying
great idea... pity you cant do... demons stratagems can target only units with demon faction keyword and Magnus havent
I take it that you think the 'thirster is a subpar choice? thanks for the reply.
Of all Greater Daemons, only Lords of Change can survive long enough to do something in battle ('cause they can be buffed to have 2++). Every other one will probably be dead turn 1 because the current level of firepower any top-level army can bring to the table is incredibly high. That's why we see a lot of DPs (they can be "shielded" by regular models) and do not see 'thirsters, KoSs and other Greaters.
Thenord wrote: I take it that you think the 'thirster is a subpar choice? thanks for the reply.
Of all Greater Daemons, only Lords of Change can survive long enough to do something in battle ('cause they can be buffed to have 2++). Every other one will probably be dead turn 1 because the current level of firepower any top-level army can bring to the table is incredibly high. That's why we see a lot of DPs (they can be "shielded" by regular models) and do not see 'thirsters, KoSs and other Greaters.
This. Armour of Scorn helps a little but at the end of the day anything large needs to be either tough or cheap while serving a purpose. Bloodthirsters don't bring enough to the table to be worth their points. Make em cheaper or make em tougher.
I'll keep saying it: make Khorne marked units immune to allied powers and then drop their points significantly (except Bloodletters who may need a 1-2 point bump if you do this). Let World Eaters take stupid amounts of Berzerkers that have to make it into combat and let Khorne Daemon players take more big bois like Bloodthirsters, Bloodcrushers, and Hounds. Let me run the legions of Khorne the way they want to be played: charging buckets full of models towards the enemy with reckless abandon.
rvd1ofakind wrote: There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.
Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.
I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.
Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.
rvd1ofakind wrote: There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.
Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.
I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.
Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.
Well I thought so too. But who am I to disagree with the top players Basically his buffs happen too late. If you're getting the buffs - you're probably already winning.
rvd1ofakind wrote: There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.
Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.
I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.
Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.
Well I thought so too. But who am I to disagree with the top players Basically his buffs happen too late. If you're getting the buffs - you're probably already winning.
yes that is, rerolling one's usually is not a deal cause you will have always a Dp makes PB or drones re roll 1 already, so the best bonus he gives come late in the game, and if you handle to kill 6-7 units hard to believe you aren't already winning.
I've had a lot of opponents spend way too much time and effort into killing epidemius. He is pretty cheap for the fire he draws in. I love running him, but in retrospect, once I get the big buffs I am generally winning.
One of the Dallas GT armies I faced had a ton bunch of little msu units to block deep strike, if I had the tally against them I would have probably gotten to 3 on T1 through oblits and daemon engines.
I was just the ringer though, so I had a fluffy DG list.
rvd1ofakind wrote: There's some talk among high ranking players that Epidemius is just win more. It also limits the list to just Nurgle Daemons.
Pretty much. I find it harder to make a good list with Epi than without.
I dont really agree... i mean, yes, you can only pick nurgle to maximize epidemus; but his buffs are really good. Rerolling 1s to hit just for killing 2 units alone is worth itx lets your demon princes wander and kill stuff. Epidemus himself is no slouch either.
Top it off that many great demons from other codices work with him, like obliterators, pbcs, and bloat drones.
Well I thought so too. But who am I to disagree with the top players Basically his buffs happen too late. If you're getting the buffs - you're probably already winning.
yes that is, rerolling one's usually is not a deal cause you will have always a Dp makes PB or drones re roll 1 already, so the best bonus he gives come late in the game, and if you handle to kill 6-7 units hard to believe you aren't already winning.
Pure IG armies, msu armies, dark eldar (lots of squishy vehicles)... i mean there are cases to be made, and he is only 100 points. He is a snowball, and even if he isnt effective in some games, hes a tough 100 point objective holder to sit in back.
gwarsh41 wrote: I've had a lot of opponents spend way too much time and effort into killing epidemius. He is pretty cheap for the fire he draws in. I love running him, but in retrospect, once I get the big buffs I am generally winning.
Ah, now this is a pretty good point - Epidemius lists can use the fact that he’s seen as a lynchpin to draw units in to try to decapitate you. If you can prepare a trap, that’s worth bearing in mind. Main thing that comes to mind is, say, Possessed or even Warp Talons or maybe a Lasherfiend, an apparently safe distance away, and a CSM psyker without Warptime who can use a Familiar and shout SURPRISE. Not something I’d rely on doing, but something I’ll look at trying to bake into Epi lists as a potential trap card.
Agreed that his big buffs are generally snowball effect multipliers. In a really big game, not so much - you’ll probably get the kills you need early on. But in a standard game, I find what happens is I have a battle group or two that largely hang around a Daemon Prince ‘captain’, get a few kills, then the DPs turn into kamikaze self-Warptimers and such whilst the remaining high damage NURGLE DAEMONS spread out a bit with their M bonus to pick targets with their hit re-rolls.
Not tried the Horticulous Oblits garden yet. Not got the minis for it, and it seems like a bit of a heavy investment that’ll yield little against gunline armies that can access ignores cover. It’d be amazing against my Space Wolf and Tyranid friends, but I’d not bother taking it to all comers.
I got a small friendly tournament comming up, which im sure I will be at least against one Necron player and one Space marines player (ultra marines). I'm between two list and cannot decide which list would be the best so I thought maybe you can help me. Im going all in on tzeentch daemons and could only think of adding Thousand sons into the list.
List 1: The strategy for this list is to deepstrike deamon prince, changecaster and 9 flamers for total of 4 CP and give them various buffs. Downside is that it leaves me with 6 CP to work with. The plan is that Lord of Change would be advancing and focused in the middle with 2++ (-2 CP each shoooting phase) invurnable save together with splitting pink horrors while screamers and fateskimmer move their way in the flank, grabbing objectives and eventually charging in. The deepstrike on turn 2 will bring the big hammer and take cares of the enemy while brimestones got the objectives. Reserve points = 191
list 2: at 14 CP and without flamers I can deepstrike the pink horrors instead. The strategy is similiar to list 1 but instead of footslogging the pink horrors they are going to deepstrike with daemon prince and changecaster. The lord of change will still have 2++ but the enemy would have no other choice then to focus lord of change or screamers (I dont think brimestones would be in consideration). Upside with this list is that i got 10 CP to work with and a little more reserve points for splitting/summoning but less fire power when deepstriking in.
Which list do you think is the best one?
If you think both suck, how would you change it? (there is a while before the tourment so i got time for painting any new the models)
Will the stragety work or will I get roffastomped?
Note: I have to pick blue horrors instead of brimestones because of lack of models. Who knows, maybe 5++ instead of 6++ is worth 2 points
gwarsh41 wrote: I've had a lot of opponents spend way too much time and effort into killing epidemius. He is pretty cheap for the fire he draws in. I love running him, but in retrospect, once I get the big buffs I am generally winning.
Ah, now this is a pretty good point - Epidemius lists can use the fact that he’s seen as a lynchpin to draw units in to try to decapitate you. If you can prepare a trap, that’s worth bearing in mind. Main thing that comes to mind is, say, Possessed or even Warp Talons or maybe a Lasherfiend, an apparently safe distance away, and a CSM psyker without Warptime who can use a Familiar and shout SURPRISE. Not something I’d rely on doing, but something I’ll look at trying to bake into Epi lists as a potential trap card.
Agreed that his big buffs are generally snowball effect multipliers. In a really big game, not so much - you’ll probably get the kills you need early on. But in a standard game, I find what happens is I have a battle group or two that largely hang around a Daemon Prince ‘captain’, get a few kills, then the DPs turn into kamikaze self-Warptimers and such whilst the remaining high damage NURGLE DAEMONS spread out a bit with their M bonus to pick targets with their hit re-rolls.
Not tried the Horticulous Oblits garden yet. Not got the minis for it, and it seems like a bit of a heavy investment that’ll yield little against gunline armies that can access ignores cover. It’d be amazing against my Space Wolf and Tyranid friends, but I’d not bother taking it to all comers.
Yes, Epidemus seems to get focused early; which is less pew going into the actual threats (Demon princes, PB's, etc.)
In reply to an earlier response about demon princes: yes, you will generally have one nearby, but its not a requirement with Epidemus. Not only that, his rerolls work for Demon Engines of nurgle (so you don't need a lord to reroll your mortars, for example), the movement/str/toughness buffs are nice too. rarely will you hit 7 before he dies, but people will spend a lot of resources to prevent it.
Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight
So I found a hilarious solution to my Daemons problem earlier.
I have begun fielding 2 Defilers, and after reading the Designer's Commentary, I now realize that a defiler can advance and charge if it's within 6" of a Slaanesh Daemon character.
So, my current way to smash Knights is to advance with a Defiler and pop smoke, then Warptime and advance again, still smoked, then charge.
This gives my defiler 16+4d6" charge range, and means the enemy is -1 to hit him with guns when they are inevitably crushed and falling back. Pair with Prescience and the Daemoniforge stratagem and my Defilers put a whupping on Knights fairly easily...
rvd1ofakind wrote: Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight
i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty
rvd1ofakind wrote: Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight
i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty
Do you mind sharing your list? Sorry if you did so already but the thread is long.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight
i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty
I've had success with Sword + knife GUO. Knife for reliable powers. Sword for hitting big stuff. Doesn't always make charge on the drop but he's fast with Bilepiper around after that. Can start him in the board army dependent too.
All the other loadouts like bell or flail are meh. Until summoning has more upside as a mechanic don't bother with it.
I rolled with the following (mostly) Daemon list at a tourney this past Saturday and walked away 3-0:
-1K Sons Battalion-
1K Sons Daemon Prince with Wings
1K Sons Daemon Prince with Wings
Sorcerer
x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists
x10 Cultists
x9 Tzaangor Enlightened with Bows
Tzaangor Shaman
-Tzeentch Daemons Battalion-
Herald of Tzeentch (Warlord-Daemonspark)
The Changeling
x30 Pink Horrors with Instrument
x10 Brimstone Horrors
x10 Brimstone Horrors
Exalted Flamer
Exalted Flamer
-Mixed Daemons Battalion-
Khorne Daemon Prince with Wings, Skullreaver
Herald of Slaanesh (usually with Forbidden Gem)
x3 Nurglings
x3 Nurglings
x3 Nurglings
18 CP, with points left over for Horror splitting to keep the big squad 20+
I'd wager many in this thread have already witnessed the madness that is the 30 Pink Horror blob, buffed by a Herald and Flickering Flames. The Daemonspark WL trait really puts it over the top, making the Exalted Flamers more deadly as well. A Daemon Prince nearby also adds that re-roll 1s to hit, which ain't bad. I would run another squad of the same, but a smart opponent would presumably just blast whichever squad I don't buff with a +1 invul during their shooting phase. The Changegling is there for one more Smite, along with that simple, but effective FNP buff (he's also a cool model that I have painted up and like to put on the table). I think a dedicated melee army may be the biggest threat to the Pink Blob, but I would screen the 20 Brimstones in a zipper formation in front of them in that scenario (1 from squad A, 1 from squad B, in a line), which requires putting major casualties in both squads in the shooting phase to open up the line.
We were running ITC missions, or I may have left the Nurglings at home now that turn 1 deep strikes aren't as much of a thing. However, they are just dirty in ITC missions, letting me play for the table quarters and enemy board edge secondaries, with these little buggers scooting up at the ends of the board. My opponent can either waste time shooting them (easier said than done) or let me rack up some battle points. They do offer an easy first turn kill point/first blood, but a savvy opponent could go for the Brimstones or Cultists anyway.
One artifact I've always liked the idea of is the Forbidden Gem on a Slaanesh Herald. It stuck with my big blob of Pinks, shutting down melee characters for a phase that got too close. It twice was able to shut down a Knight Gallant's charge phase, since they are usually characters. My opponents were not pleased... It can also take the -1 to hit spell, which could come in handy when it's a better option than smite.
I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, but Skullreaver is another doozy of a relic, particularly since everyone's dusting off their Knights. On AVERAGE, the Khorne DP drops over 20 wounds on a Knight in one round of combat (that's not including the potential "fight again" strat. He can also hide behind the blob until an opportunity presents itself.
I'll also sing the praises of the 1K Sons Daemon Prince, though that's not exactly on top in this thread. Why they got such stronger DPs for the same price is a question for the ages. I'd wager they'll get a bump in the next CA unfortunately. The Tzaangor Englightened squad also gave me a fast, dangerous army element to reach out with Warp Time and tag shooty units or grab objectives. They also proved to be a fire magnet which prompted me to start giving them defensive buffs. Overall, Smite is as badass as ever and I really wish Tzeentch Daemons got included in the Smite rule exclusion, because they need/deserve it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight
i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty
It sucks and dies turn 1 like any other greater daemon except 2++ LoC which is a waste of artifacts and CP
rvd1ofakind wrote: Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight
i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty
Do you mind sharing your list? Sorry if you did so already but the thread is long.
i sent you a pm with my TS+Dg+Demons list, just consider i play in Italy and we dont use ITC/Nova rules so the list is build for our tournament formats.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Any knight allies ideas after the renegade release? Good for clearing stuff for deepstrike and getting first blood?
small knight, small knight, medium knight
i might try renegade Ik with 2 gatlings and couple of armiger autocannons, or 3 armiger autocannons+something else like a distracting carnifex (a ds GUO?), today i got 2nd again with my nurgle+Ts+N demons winning all 3 matches so im bit unsure if worth change something.
Someone have some feedback about GUO? ty
It sucks and dies turn 1 like any other greater daemon except 2++ LoC which is a waste of artifacts and CP
turn one is impossible cause you can keep it in ds, maybe you meant the first turn he is on the board.
Mortarion
2 GUO 1 Rotigus
Bilepiper
fill rest with nurglings.
The downside of morty in DG lists is that there are no other threats to pull fire from. Usually people fill the rest with objective holders or allies to buff up morty. Bring 2 GUO, and suddenly you have 3 giant scary monsters that can and will murder just about anything they touch. Nurglings are a top tier utility unit that can easily tie up an opponent on T1 thanks to their infiltrate. At a recent GT I was the ringer, so I faced people when there were uneven number due to drops. There was a surprising amount of gunlines there, I faced 2 of them. Tau and Necrons. I feel if I was running a list like the one above, it would have been an easy win (though I was supposed to lose, so I ran footslog PM and morty) It might have been that they faced armies that were not capable of easily dealing with tons of nurglings and 3 giant monsters, or they just played it well. I'll add this to the list of armies I think look pretty damned fun to run.
That is about 27 nurglings and will net you 13CP, which is more than enough to keep a GUO with ++4 for the whole game, deep strike anything you want, and have room for re-rolls. Though, if you run MSU nurglings you will not likely be getting +1 to first turn.
Also, possible WAAC cheap move I noticed. Errata says that Miasma of Pestilence in DG and Daemon book counts as the same spell because it has the same name. The CSM Miasma is called "Mark of nurgle miasma of pestilence" was there an errata on it to also be the same as DG and Daemons, if not, can it be cast on DG units to double stack miasma on say, morty?
Mortarion
2 GUO 1 Rotigus
Bilepiper
fill rest with nurglings.
If someones not expecting it, that list can work really well. Thats like a bazillion high wound, high toughness, with fnp models. Plus bilepiper makes everything swing more. I feel morty is just there to take shots the first couple turns while the GUO's get up there. Nurglings can oddly do a lot of damage en-masse....
I'll be trying the list tonight, but with 6 less nurglings, and add in epidemius. Mostly to give the GUOs re-roll 1s to hit, and be another high value target.
Unit1126PLL wrote: It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.
Send help.
To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.
Is anyone else quite underwhelmed by the nurgle relics? The other three gods have items that are really good (imo) such as the khorne armour & axe, tzeentch robe, and slaanesh sword, but nurgle is left with a decent-ish sword for a herald and two very situational items. And for some reason Nurgle only has three relics.
Corruption looks like it would be useful on a scrivener, giving him a surprising punch in cc, but the bell and horn look fairly uninspiring. It's a pity they didn't give us grotti the nurgling from the last codex.
Unit1126PLL wrote: It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.
Send help.
To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.
Well, back in 7th edition, a Soul Grinder was much better than a Defiler (which was horribly overcosted). I guess the pendulum swung back again.
ArikTaranis wrote: Is anyone else quite underwhelmed by the nurgle relics? The other three gods have items that are really good (imo) such as the khorne armour & axe, tzeentch robe, and slaanesh sword, but nurgle is left with a decent-ish sword for a herald and two very situational items. And for some reason Nurgle only has three relics.
Corruption looks like it would be useful on a scrivener, giving him a surprising punch in cc, but the bell and horn look fairly uninspiring. It's a pity they didn't give us grotti the nurgling from the last codex.
Corruption is pretty decent on a DP, not even close to a Khorne axe DP though, but still nice. I guess it's a tough swap going from 3dmg to D3, but extra strength and AP with re-roll wounds makes it nice for hunting bigger stuff. I generally run the horn on a malefic talons daemon prince and a blob of 30PB. Drop the PB in the center of the field so its easy to be in range of wherever, get stuck in with whatever you can and as they die, the DP moves in and picks stuff off, adding PB back to the unit for free.
Grotti was such an awesome relic, I even went out and bought an old school GUO nurgling to use as grotti.
Wasn't able to try the 3 GUO+Morty list last night. I was the odd man out on 40k night. Plus I didn't want to face the knight list I face last week, or gunline eldar with high proxy, bleh, gunlines are just bland to face.
Unit1126PLL wrote: It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.
Send help.
To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.
Defilers don't get legion traits, but you can do a turn 1 charge just as well with a Defiler as with a Soul Grinder.
First list. Daemon princes will hurt. Knights hate anything fast, character protected h2h things. Not sure how bad those are in damage output but marine captains with thunder hammer are evil, slamquinus will simply make short work of knight. How well daemon prince compares to either? I would assume not badly at least to marine captain. Trio of those charging into knight should make world of hurt and before they charge not much knight player can really even do to them short of hawkshroud valiant(which I suspect won't be most popular knight in tournament lists)
Plaguebearers will be positive PITA for knight heavy list. They have precious few ways to deal with horde to begin with and invulnerable save and FNP loaded infantry are going to be major hurdle to go through. Nurglings can be annoyance in being cheap roadblock or they can take hold objectives and knights have nothing they really want to spend killing them...
Second list. Read above regarding plaguebearers. Crawlers can be trouble though knights are better at dealing with tough lone models. Castellan can hurt those rather well and will as a minimum put 2 into 2nd wound bracket or worse in one turn likely.
My feeling will be they won't win neccessarily killing war though those daemon princes can do wonders but when you factor objectives pure knight list will struggle. Imperial soup with 1-3 knights will probably do better but pure knights will find those plaguebearer swarms nightmare to deal with.
Unit1126PLL wrote: It physically hurts me that Soul Grinders are SO much worse than Defilers.
Send help.
To be fair they are quite a bit better in melee then defilers and locuses and alignment can make them suprisingly effective (i.e turn 1 slaanesh soul grinder charges and cripples enemy knight, or 4+ invuln tzeentch grinder with locus to negate hit rolls of x creating great rage from enemy leman russes) but i'd rather have the shooting, strategems, and -1 to hit legion trait on the defiler 4/5 times.
In my opinion (because im too lazy to do the math like I usually do), the Defiler is still stronger in melee, just for the simple fact that for 1 CP you can reroll all your crap. I think that's far stronger than any bonus you get from being daemon faction keyword. Additionally, Defilers can get healed by Warpsmiths, for a potential 2-4 wounds a turn...Which can get fairly out of hand.
The fact we're even comparing Soul Grinder vs Defiler means we're talking kitchen top. Nowhere on planet earth would you bring a Soul Grinder or Defiler to a tournament and think you are giving yourself an edge.
blackmage wrote: yes that's why i can say both fit to garagehammer play.
The arguement isn't that they are both garagehammer, we all know that. But stat by stat basis, the Soul Grinder is not even close to as good as the Defiler. Both aren't tournament level, but the difference is a B+ unit and a C- unit.
blackmage wrote: if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint
I give them a pass when it comes to this, because this is a whole new edition with whole new weight of what is good and what isn't. You really can't go off the metric of cost from 7th, because that's what they did with flamers and now look at how bad flamers are. New system ,new points. They're still working out the kinks, just like we are.
blackmage wrote: if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint
I give them a pass when it comes to this, because this is a whole new edition with whole new weight of what is good and what isn't. You really can't go off the metric of cost from 7th, because that's what they did with flamers and now look at how bad flamers are. New system ,new points. They're still working out the kinks, just like we are.
And they won't get anywhere with 8th ed anyway. It will remaing unbalanced and eventually edition gets replaced shaking balance again starting them again. And hell even within 8th ed new codex will not be just fine tuning. GW's style has been seen so often in past 30 years.
blackmage wrote: if Gw cant make proper rules/units cost...after a zillion years they developing wh40k.. should be a big hint
I give them a pass when it comes to this, because this is a whole new edition with whole new weight of what is good and what isn't. You really can't go off the metric of cost from 7th, because that's what they did with flamers and now look at how bad flamers are. New system ,new points. They're still working out the kinks, just like we are.
And they won't get anywhere with 8th ed anyway. It will remaing unbalanced and eventually edition gets replaced shaking balance again starting them again. And hell even within 8th ed new codex will not be just fine tuning. GW's style has been seen so often in past 30 years.
maybe a day will come when players will realize that , the fact is we cant stop playing this and say... gw sucks making the rules, cause there are no alternatives and most of us got lot of miniatures (and money spent), so we MUST convince ourselves that Gw will make a good job and say ok... anyway the game will be good, this leave some hope, then 8th edition will finish and another one will come, rinse and repeat, there is nothing to do, impossible to admit Gw will NEVER do a balanced game.
Problem with 7th was codexes. Replace those ala HH and you get edition that beats the crap out of any edition of 40k. Still not perfect but far beyond anything so far in terms of logic, balance and fun.
codex make the edtion not just the rules so 7th----> pure crap.
PS: dont forget things like invisibility or D weapons removing at 6 anything on the table or summoning , that'was not into codex those was BB rules/powers, and sure nothing fun to play against. Did you ever play against a demon with screamers at 2++ rerollable a blob of invisible hard hitters like korne hounds+herald and tons of flying chaarcters summing anything everywhere? that's not inside demon codex (beside screamers at 2++), but was basic book rules, so yes 7th was basically a crap, codex just got thing worse and worse.
setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...
So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.
So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.
blackmage wrote: codex make the edtion not just the rules so 7th----> pure crap.
PS: dont forget things like invisibility or D weapons removing at 6 anything on the table or summoning , that'was not into codex those was BB rules/powers, and sure nothing fun to play against. Did you ever play against a demon with screamers at 2++ rerollable a blob of invisible hard hitters like korne hounds+herald and tons of flying chaarcters summing anything everywhere? that's not inside demon codex (beside screamers at 2++), but was basic book rules, so yes 7th was basically a crap, codex just got thing worse and worse.
Yes. Funny thing you complain about codex specific things like 2++ rerollable screamer star when that's codex issue...
And yes invisibility was problem. Of course that's just one spell FW already fixed.
Core rules while not perfect were still light years ahead of 8th ed basic rules. Codex were source of 99% problems. HH proved it already. Replace codexes, 99% goes away, you end up with rules that beat the crap out of 8th in terms of logic, fun and balance. 8th ed can do nothing but weep in comparison.
What is it you guys dislike about the Soul Grinder? Just the points costs? Because I found it okay with disgustingly resilient, also better than the FW Plague Hulk (so much so that I took my Hulk as Soul Grinder).
Just was one game though, but at least it brought down a Riptide nearly on its own.
blackmage wrote: codex make the edtion not just the rules so 7th----> pure crap.
PS: dont forget things like invisibility or D weapons removing at 6 anything on the table or summoning , that'was not into codex those was BB rules/powers, and sure nothing fun to play against. Did you ever play against a demon with screamers at 2++ rerollable a blob of invisible hard hitters like korne hounds+herald and tons of flying chaarcters summing anything everywhere? that's not inside demon codex (beside screamers at 2++), but was basic book rules, so yes 7th was basically a crap, codex just got thing worse and worse.
Yes. Funny thing you complain about codex specific things like 2++ rerollable screamer star when that's codex issue...
And yes invisibility was problem. Of course that's just one spell FW already fixed.
Core rules while not perfect were still light years ahead of 8th ed basic rules. Codex were source of 99% problems. HH proved it already. Replace codexes, 99% goes away, you end up with rules that beat the crap out of 8th in terms of logic, fun and balance. 8th ed can do nothing but weep in comparison.
With the advent of 8th edition HH basically broke down. At least that's what I see here on Dakka and ebay and seeing the last chance to buy on FW. HH is an okay system despite 7th ed rules, not because of it. Ap system, vehicle rules, movement rules, psychic rules, removing of casualties, CC-phase - these have all been aweful in 7th edition core rules (and have vastly been improved in 8th) and are also in HH, but HH works around some of them with lots of upgrades for vehicles to make them durable, hardly any psykers in the game and 80% of the factions having the same armour.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: What is it you guys dislike about the Soul Grinder? Just the points costs? Because I found it okay with disgustingly resilient, also better than the FW Plague Hulk (so much so that I took my Hulk as Soul Grinder). Just was one game though, but at least it brought down a Riptide nearly on its own.
I run Slaanesh Daemons, so let's compare:
My Soul Grinder has: Weapons: Harvester Cannon (kinda meh whatever), Phlegm Cannon (more reliable battlecannon), and essentially identical CC weapons to a defiler with a defiler scourge Statline: +1 attack over Defiler Rules: Quicksilver Swiftness, can advance and charge if next to a Slaanesh Daemon character, can be buffed by the medicore Slaanesh psychic powers Stratagems: Deep strike and Warp Surge (both 2CP for it)
My Defiler has: Weapons: Reaper Autocannon (kinda meh watever), Battlecannon (phlegm cannon with slightly less reliability but more range) and essentially identical CC weapons if given a scourge Statline: 1 less attack than a Soul Grinder Rules: can advance and charge if next to a Slaanesh Daemon character, can be buffed by the amazing CSM psychic powers, including warptime to move and advance twice before charging, and the not-gakky Delightful Agonies (which makes it match Nurgle's Disgustingly Resilient), can be repaired by a Warpsmith/Hellwright, has infernal regeneration, has smoke launchers. Stratagems: Daemonforge (re-roll everything EVER!), Blasphemous machines (can move and fire if it needs to).
My Soul Grinder is 235, my Defiler is 167. So in other words, I am saving 65 points and losing exactly one attack and Quicksilver Swiftness, while gaining smoke launchers, better buffs from stratagems and psychic powers, and regeneration.
Plop down Diabolic Strength and it’s out-punching the Soul Grinder, to boot. Comparing Grapefruit and Oranges, sure, but it’s still there. I’m working on a Defiler now - like, glue drying as I type - that’s been in my bits box for like fifteen years for some shophammer.
As for what Slaanesh Daemons, sans kin, have to bring down a Knight... tough call. Can’t even glue a Fiend to it without getting easily stomped. Daemon Prince and seeker horde enveloping them? They can’t step over CAVALRY, and Masque can stand nearby and make them very difficult to stomp away (long as three are left, you can keep it entangled).
If you’re facing a whole army of Knights and can synchronise things well enough, maybe drop in a KoS or two as they get entangled. Not facing shooting or overwatch could make the difference.
If you’re bringing kin, a load of Warp Talons can drop around that Knight with the horrific flame weapon. One unit tags it, you’ve killed overwatch without having to navigate LOS blocking.
I’m not saying these are great solutions... ‘maybe viable’ would be more appropriate.
Yeah, not the best but it does eliminate overwatch. Warp Talons can only drop at 9.1 inches away and so they need to roll a 9 inch charge. Not the best thing you want to rely on.
The more I think about it, the more horrifying the huge Knight with the mega Flamer and harpoon becomes for Daemon armies in general. Even Bloodthirsters are going to be crossing their fingers :/
Unit1126PLL wrote: setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...
So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.
So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.
slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.
I think since the codex, and especially since the most recent FAQ, we are all just hoping for a lot of across the board points reductions in the next balancing update. Not to mention maybe changes to the deep strike beta rules and to the lack of being able to assault on to higher levels of terrain.
Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.
Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.
Postulent wrote: Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.
Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.
so explain me why so many Nurgle demons (with average 60-90 pb) doing so well at tournaments, ok they mix with Dg but the core is nurgle demon battalion, demons need to be played a lot to master them. Personally i play Dg+N demons+Ts and last tournament i got 2nd winning all the matches (necrons, tyr, Dg), slaanesh and Korne are crap not whole demon codex
Unit1126PLL wrote: setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...
So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.
So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.
slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.
why play a SlDp when you can play a N Dp with locus, he has lot of damage potential, every six to wound mean at least 3 wounds, with virulent blessing means 5 wounds, last tournament my Nurgle Dp got 10 wounds on Hive Tyrant.
Postulent wrote: Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.
Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.
so explain me why so many Nurgle demons (with average 60-90 pb) doing so well at tournaments, ok they mix with Dg but the core is nurgle demon battalion, demons need to be played a lot to master them. Personally i play Dg+N demons+Ts and last tournament i got 2nd winning all the matches (necrons, tyr, Dg), slaanesh and Korne are crap not whole demon codex
Unit1126PLL wrote: setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...
So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.
So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.
slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.
why play a SlDp when you can play a N Dp with locus, he has lot of damage potential, every six to wound mean at least 3 wounds, with virulent blessing means 5 wounds, last tournament my Nurgle Dp got 10 wounds on Hive Tyrant.
Oh, good point, I forgot that nurgle daemon princes were available in mono slaanesh armies.
Postulent wrote: Daemons are a codex without transports, without any real long range shooting, and after the faq, with no real mobility or ability to alpha strike. Thousand sons do smite spam and daemon princes better, and death guard can make much more durable armies, all they need from daemons are nurglings and some flies. When was the last time you saw any of the greater daemons on the table? A footslogging melee army with no mobility or fly is kinda bad, no matter how you look at it.
Yeaaaah, prolly better just accept that they aren't very good at the moment, khorne and slaanesh are both just kinda meh, they don't offer anything to the table csm don't do a lot better.
so explain me why so many Nurgle demons (with average 60-90 pb) doing so well at tournaments, ok they mix with Dg but the core is nurgle demon battalion, demons need to be played a lot to master them. Personally i play Dg+N demons+Ts and last tournament i got 2nd winning all the matches (necrons, tyr, Dg), slaanesh and Korne are crap not whole demon codex
Unit1126PLL wrote: setting aside the argument about GW in the Daemons Tactica thread...
So as I mentioned, I've been using defilers for (yes garagehammer) knight crumping with my Slaanesh list - not sure how Slaanesh kills big things. But every time I take a look at the list, more and more Slaanesh daemons get cut, and I want to not do that.
So in your guys's opinions, what's the best "T8 3+" killer available to Slaanesh Daemons, because I've tried Zarakynel + Gribblies and it's a resounding phrrrbt.
slaanesh daemon princes? Honestly they are my heavy lifters in most lists. They are cheap, characters, and have some decent damage.
why play a SlDp when you can play a N Dp with locus, he has lot of damage potential, every six to wound mean at least 3 wounds, with virulent blessing means 5 wounds, last tournament my Nurgle Dp got 10 wounds on Hive Tyrant.
I think the issue is a few units are very good (Nurglings, Plague Bearers, Bloodletter bomb , Daemon Princes, Heralds of Nurgle) some are ok (most of Tzeentch) but the rest are really not. As someone said above, when was the last time you saw a greater daemon? most things Slannesh?
I personally dislike playing the same units all the time and have most outside Slannesh, but frequently I find it difficult to find synergy between many of the units. Just revewing our stratagems last night and there really bland outside of the obvious ones. Definitely a missed opportunity there imho.
I have found slaanesh works incredibly well in the right list. Monon slaanesh in 1 detachment, mono emporers children in next, and finish with tzeentch patrol detachment. Make tzeentch a lord of change with his robe and the strat for 2++ save, run forward with noise marines laying down support fire, dp of slaanesh getting a good chance at a t1 assault if you do it right. But just flat mono slaanesh at the moment is a fluffy army, but not really competitive.
Apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread. I'm looking at entering a tournament which uses Power Levels rather then Points and was hoping to use this to my advantage following the points nerf of various Daemon units.
Current list on which I'd appreciate your thoughts. (I realise this is cheese but it is a tournament):
Super Heavy Detachment-
Aetaos'rau'keres (35 PL)
Magnus (23 PL)
Mortarion (24 PL)
I do have a number of khorne units I could put in (maybe 30 Bloodletters rather than the chariots), or could cut down on the LoW and take 2 Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments instead? I suppose the main question is: has anyone had much experience of running Magnus, Morty and Big Bird in the same list?
Also as a side question- this comes out as 3155 points for 120 power level. As points are probably a better guide what's the most points you can see squeezed into 120 PL?
That sort of goes to the point I'm making about PL vs points. In this instance 120 power equals 3155 points, mainly due to the ridiculous points increase to Aetaos in chapter approved. So on the current list I will be playing matched play with all those points at an official GW tournament at warhammer world.
I'm Sparticus wrote: Apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread. I'm looking at entering a tournament which uses Power Levels rather then Points and was hoping to use this to my advantage following the points nerf of various Daemon units.
Current list on which I'd appreciate your thoughts. (I realise this is cheese but it is a tournament):
Super Heavy Detachment-
Aetaos'rau'keres (35 PL)
Magnus (23 PL)
Mortarion (24 PL)
I do have a number of khorne units I could put in (maybe 30 Bloodletters rather than the chariots), or could cut down on the LoW and take 2 Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments instead? I suppose the main question is: has anyone had much experience of running Magnus, Morty and Big Bird in the same list?
Also as a side question- this comes out as 3155 points for 120 power level. As points are probably a better guide what's the most points you can see squeezed into 120 PL?
Sorry to burst the bubble here, but Magnus, Mort, and ARK can’t go in the same battle-forged detachment. They don’t have a common keyword that’s not CHAOS, IMPERIUM, TYRANID, AELDARI or YNNARI.
A perfect example of why no one should ever play with PL. Just play narrative at that point.
Anyways, going to be building up my Tzeentch demons and I'm curious if anyone can provide strong reasoning for take a burning chariot over an exalted flamer? Losing the character status just seems so risky m
As for squeezing points into power levels: not easy, with a Daemons army. This usually comes from equipment options (for instance, always a twin Lascannon over a budget peashooter), and rounding errors. In the Slaanesh Daemonkin list I’m working on now, I noticed that my Herald on Steed and three Fiends came out modestly above the rough 1:20 upper ratio, but then Fiends are overpriced for what they do so that’s not really helpful.
Really, when you make a high points low power list, you’re taking the upmarket options - like the aforementioned Lascannons - that your power level pays for anyway. With largely option-less Daemons, there’s little creative accountancy to be done save for taking as many banners and instruments as possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: ...going to be building up my Tzeentch demons and I'm curious if anyone can provide strong reasoning for take a burning chariot over an exalted flamer? Losing the character status just seems so risky m
- the reach on your blue fire goes from 28” to 32”, which isn’t bad - makes it harder for opponent to protect a key target on turn one
- the reach on your pink fire goes from 22” to 26”, which on a Pistol (that can’t Advance and shoot) means a turn one poke at an infantry unit, not that this is any use beyond giving it a participation medal when your opponent successfully bubble wraps their big stuff away from it
- it can bite things in melee - not that this is worth 30pts on a gun platform, but it’s got such a short range you’re certainly going to receive a charge now and then
- it can help fill out a Spearhead - not that you’ll likely want two Soulgrinders, but with a fixed S a couple of Skull Cannons could be barracked with it. Or some Mutaliths or Tzeentch CSM tanks/daemon engines that don’t want a LEGION perk anyway
- there’s a Sigmar formation that uses it
- erm...
- that’s it
I'm Sparticus wrote: Apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread. I'm looking at entering a tournament which uses Power Levels rather then Points and was hoping to use this to my advantage following the points nerf of various Daemon units.
Current list on which I'd appreciate your thoughts. (I realise this is cheese but it is a tournament):
Super Heavy Detachment-
Aetaos'rau'keres (35 PL)
Magnus (23 PL)
Mortarion (24 PL)
I do have a number of khorne units I could put in (maybe 30 Bloodletters rather than the chariots), or could cut down on the LoW and take 2 Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachments instead? I suppose the main question is: has anyone had much experience of running Magnus, Morty and Big Bird in the same list?
Also as a side question- this comes out as 3155 points for 120 power level. As points are probably a better guide what's the most points you can see squeezed into 120 PL?
Sorry to burst the bubble here, but Magnus, Mort, and ARK can’t go in the same battle-forged detachment. They don’t have a common keyword that’s not CHAOS, IMPERIUM, TYRANID, AELDARI or YNNARI.
They all share the Chaos keyword so can go in the same battle-forged detachment unless I'm missing something?
lindsay40k wrote:As for squeezing points into power levels: not easy, with a Daemons army. This usually comes from equipment options (for instance, always a twin Lascannon over a budget peashooter), and rounding errors. In the Slaanesh Daemonkin list I’m working on now, I noticed that my Herald on Steed and three Fiends came out modestly above the rough 1:20 upper ratio, but then Fiends are overpriced for what they do so that’s not really helpful.
Really, when you make a high points low power list, you’re taking the upmarket options - like the aforementioned Lascannons - that your power level pays for anyway. With largely option-less Daemons, there’s little creative accountancy to be done save for taking as many banners and instruments as possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: ...going to be building up my Tzeentch demons and I'm curious if anyone can provide strong reasoning for take a burning chariot over an exalted flamer? Losing the character status just seems so risky m
- the reach on your blue fire goes from 28” to 32”, which isn’t bad - makes it harder for opponent to protect a key target on turn one
- the reach on your pink fire goes from 22” to 26”, which on a Pistol (that can’t Advance and shoot) means a turn one poke at an infantry unit, not that this is any use beyond giving it a participation medal when your opponent successfully bubble wraps their big stuff away from it
- it can bite things in melee - not that this is worth 30pts on a gun platform, but it’s got such a short range you’re certainly going to receive a charge now and then
- it can help fill out a Spearhead - not that you’ll likely want two Soulgrinders, but with a fixed S a couple of Skull Cannons could be barracked with it. Or some Mutaliths or Tzeentch CSM tanks/daemon engines that don’t want a LEGION perk anyway
- there’s a Sigmar formation that uses it
- erm...
- that’s it
I would normally very much agree but with this specific list I don't have much of a shield (30 horrors), don't have much to shield in that all the big guys can be hit anyway and suspect my big problem will be mobility and support for the big guys, and claiming objectives which I'll have to use the horrors for so any shield I had will disappear pretty quickly.
The additional mobility and durability of the chariot over the exalted flamer is why I put them in this list.
Re keywords and battle forged: in the early 2018 big FAQ, CHAOS was amongst the ‘broad alliance’ faction keywords that was disallowed as a detachment keyword. So, you can have a TZEENTCH detachment of Magnus, ARK and, say, a Black Legion Spartan with a MoT, or a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment of Magnus, Mortarion, and a World Eaters Lord of Skulls, or a DAEMON detachment containing all four giant FW Greater Daemons (note also that the FAQs have edited whether DAEMON is a Faction or general keyword for a lot of stuff - no cheeky Obliterators in a DAEMON Detachment any more), but not a CHAOS soup detachment.
Similarly, you won’t face a detachment containing Marneus Calgar, Commissar Yarrick, and Inquisitor Greyfax. Or Eldrad Ulthuan, Asdrubael Vecht, and the Avatar of Saim-Hann.
There’s also a recommendation to TO’s on restricting the number of times you can take each datasheet, and the number of detachments, but that doesn’t affect your list.
With IK disrupting the meta, most agree Tau and D/Eldar stocks raise since they are good counters. However, I think demons may be a dark horse in anti-IK woith some good combos and choices. Plus, the amount of MWs that can be put out is a great counter. I'm also liking a few exalted flamers.
They have two good DP options with relics. Those being the Skullreaver Khorne DP and the corruption equipped nurgle DP with virulent blessing.
They also have some neat tricks since most knights will be made characters to access their own sweet relics. The forbidden gem will flull stop a knight which is crazy powerful. Kharnak, oddly, can do some work against a caharacter knight as well.
forbidden gem really? once per game and roll against D9 works 25% ot times only and last only 1 single phase? Karanak 4 attacks which wounds on 4+ (average 4 wounds if he didn't save any), seriously you need to read better codex demons, the only real counter they have is mortal wounds and Dp's spam one with Skullreaver and one with corruption the rest with double talons great with virulent blessing+nurgle locus, or plaguebearers spam 60-90 of them and hardly IK's can deal with all those 5++/5+++ -1 to hit bodies.
blackmage wrote: forbidden gem really? once per game and roll against D9 works 25% ot times only and last only 1 single phase? Karanak 4 attacks which wounds on 4+ (average 4 wounds if he didn't save any), seriously you need to read better codex demons, the only real counter they have is mortal wounds and Dp's spam one with Skullreaver and one with corruption the rest with double talons great with virulent blessing+nurgle locus, or plaguebearers spam 60-90 of them and hardly IK's can deal with all those 5++/5+++ -1 to hit bodies.
I've been crushing Knights with my Slaanesh Daemons, actually, provided I don't die before I get to grips with them.
1) The Forbidden Gem rolls a 3d6, on which the average is 10.5, so it stops a knight in its tracks well over 50% of the time, not 25% of the time. This can have ripple effects as well; Knights cannot fire while locked in combat (they must Fall Back first), and so shutting one down during the Movement Phase while it is in combat also indirectly shuts it down in the Shooting Phase as well. If it is in combat with Slaanesh Daemons, this means Quicksilver Swiftness kicks in and they get to attack it first even in the enemy's turn, meaning it could likely die before it even gets to swing, shutting it out of the Fight Phase. This is amazingly powerful and I've used it more than once.
2) Zarakynel is hilarious at murdering Knights. She's not amazing at it for her points, but since she can't be shot while they're locked with her, and they can be locked in combat for a whole variety of reasons (everything from Fiends that snuck by without getting killed to the aforementioned Forbidden Gem) then she's guaranteed to get 3 rounds of combat in on a Knight, doing 9 wounds a round on average, before being released to charge again. Usually, this is the round where she charges, then the enemy's next turn since they're locked up, then my Psychic Phase (since I have enough heralds to throw Hysterical Frenzy) on one, leaving the enemy with a slain Knight and Zarakynel free to charge in my next Charge Phase.
3) Daemonettes are actually surprisingly good against Knights. Knights lack an invuln in combat, meaning the wounding-on-6s' Daemonettes outright ignore their saves. 20 Daemonettes usually make it in after one of my characters (Daemon Prince or Zarakynel) and get a whopping 61 attacks - if the Masque is there, they hit on 2s re-rolling 1s, missing likely 1-2 of the attacks, and then the Daemonettes wound on 6s, doing something like 10 wounds to the Knight.
are you talking of competitive lists? I never seen 1 single slaanesh list around
Pretty better bloodletters than demonettes, they have ap -3 and str 5 in charge so they wound basically at 5+ and at 6+ they deal 2 wounds, 61 attacks at 2+ re rolling 1's wounding on 5+ put out lot of wounds if you have 3 cp's to spend they fight another round they are pretty killy, Korne Dp's with skullreaver and legendary fighter can almost single kill an Ik, alreday tested for incoming ETC event.
Btw speaking about competitive i would never use an artefact who work more or less 50% times and only in 1 phase, btw a pure Slaanesh list might do well against Ik's
blackmage wrote: are you talking of competitive lists? I never seen 1 single slaanesh list around
Pretty better bloodletters than demonettes, they have ap -3 and str 5 in charge so they wound basically at 5+ and at 6+ they deal 2 wounds, 61 attacks at 2+ re rolling 1's wounding on 5+ put out lot of wounds if you have 3 cp's to spend they fight another round they are pretty killy, Korne Dp's with skullreaver and legendary fighter can almost single kill an Ik, alreday tested for incoming ETC event.
Btw speaking about competitive i would never use an artefact who work more or less 50% times and only in 1 phase, btw a pure Slaanesh list might do well against Ik's
Yes, I am talking about NOVA Practice lists.
Problem with Khorne isn't that they can't kill the knights, but rather that they can't keep them locked up to save their skins from shooting. Knights aren't exactly "durable" but they hit like a truck, and being able to lock them in combat (and therefore shut down their Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases) is absolutely critical.
Secondly, without Quicksilver Swiftness, even if they did lock the knights up, it's not helpful. Death Grip stratagem gets played after a Knight swings, so if you are still in combat with a Knight with a Str 6 or 7 or less character/monster on his turn, expect that character to die a horrible, agonizing death as he is slowly crushed. Quicksilver Swiftness means that the knight doesn't get a chance to swing - I've not been death-gripped once with Str 7 (without melee weapons) Zarakynel despite being locked in combat for multiple rounds, simply because she can blenderize a knight so easily before it swings, regardless of whose turn it is, unless it charges her (which, considering she moves 16" minimum, means it's my fault if that happens).
if you go at NOVA with a monoslaanesh im very curious to know how you do, im unsure how you can be competitive against other armies, btw im not playtesting slaanesh so i cant get the whole picture, what i know right now unless i m building a list for team tournament i will not play slaanesh, it's too fragile against most of top armies.
Testing bl+skullreaver Dp i can take care of 2 knights maybe i dont kill both but i degrade them enough to make them almost harmless, hitting on 5+ is not much threating for my list, next turn they MUST take care of both Dp and 30 Bl and with 1 less knight and another one heavily degraded is not that easy, if they kill them, the rest of army (3 more Dp's 60 Pb )are ready to strike or have most objectives in their hands, 3 Dp's usually take down another Knight, is not an easy game but you have the tools to win.
What do we reckon to Be’lakor, these days? Some nice melee output, access to Death Hex sans Heretic Astartes, must be in a Daemons detachment - that doesn’t get Loci.
Be'lakor still stinks, just doesnt mesh well in a pure deamon list. Nothing has changed there.
I am slowly working on a Slaanesh force for local tournament play because of some of the points brought out lately plus my own findings a few pages ago when i crushed a "competitive list" wholesale with a pure random deamon list. I found deamonettes do well when you are moving at break neck paces at an opponent getting t1 assaults off even after the rule changes. I plan on allying in emporers children to get full support for slaanesh. I like the idea of the gem getting use, i will have to try that.
Azuza001 wrote: Be'lakor still stinks, just doesnt mesh well in a pure deamon list. Nothing has changed there.
I am slowly working on a Slaanesh force for local tournament play because of some of the points brought out lately plus my own findings a few pages ago when i crushed a "competitive list" wholesale with a pure random deamon list. I found deamonettes do well when you are moving at break neck paces at an opponent getting t1 assaults off even after the rule changes. I plan on allying in emporers children to get full support for slaanesh. I like the idea of the gem getting use, i will have to try that.
Slaanesh is a great God, pity it is the weakest i have lot of slaanesh in my collection but absolutely unplayable in competitive, and im intersted ONLY in competitive.
Here is my tactical theory, if anyone has better ideas i am open to them.
Use deamons of slaansesh like this
Herald on steed for speed and ability to get the bonus to other fast units. Masque because its freaking awsome. 3 squads of 10 demmonettes because they are small enough to not be a huge threat and can put out some decent wounds and fast enough to be a part of the 2nd wave. 5 seekers for hopeful t1 charge.
Chaos marines - 2 deamon princes of slaanesh with wings and talons, one with elixer. A biker sorcerer with warp time and prescience for help. 3 squads of 10 noise marines, each squad with 2 blastmasters and 8 sonic blasters. Fast moving fire support.
Thousand sons - patrol detachment with deamon prince of tzeentch, dark matter crystal, aetherstride, and talons. Large blob of tzaangors.
This gives 13 cp before artifacts or other things, should be enough to get what we want. Turn 1 everything moves up and advances into range. Dark matter crystal moves tzaangors into range for charge, then warp time to get deamon prince of tzeentch into range of charge. Dp tzeentch casts gaze of fate. Now they charge, between the gaze of fate and the cp reroll they should get in, hopefully seekers get in as well. 2nd turn that should leave 2 dp of slaanesh, the masque, and anything else left alive charging in and making life difficult for the enemy. Thoughts welcomed before i go and get more noise marines to try this, i already have the rest.
problem is... against a decent list you risk to charge chaffs with your 1st wave, then get obliterated, dont count you rely on 9" charges you could not get, 30 noise are a good fire base, i just think about some common lists around and not sure if can work, in particular if you dont get 1st turn. 1st turn charge isn't always a great option most depend what you are facing, if you cant clean up enough chaffs a 1st turn charge brings nothing to you, for example a common demon list play 90 Pb, you have no way to clear a path to valuable targets and when he retaliate you lost tons of model and probably the game, if you delay charge trying to win with obiective slaanesh is so weak (low T and just a 5++ save), this is just an example, btw all imho i never faced a mono slaanesh in 8th edition so i might be wrong of course, btw 30 noise marines rocks
A load of Noise Marines and Sorcerers is about as much of a Daemons of Slaanesh list and Yvraine and the Yncarne are a Drukhari list
Don’t get me wrong, I’ll play that - I’m a Word Bearer fluff player, I’m still trying to make Summoning work - but it’s not moving things forwards for Daemon purists :/
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: how are Daemonettes reliably getting T1 charges? 7” move, 2” from banner, that leaves 15” to cover with 3D6? Unless you go second and your opponent chooses to move closer to a horde of trainee genestealers? I’m experimenting with a Fiends list that stops people falling back from a Warptimed beatstick, and I need to throw a lot of units out there to make contact
I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.
Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.
Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.
yes IF you think to face lot of IK's they are decent choice, just bothering keep BT in AiP and spend two extra cp's and then hope in a 9" charge, keep it on table against IK is hazardous regardless of 3++.I still prefer skullreave dp with legendary fighter warlord trait it cant be targeted and damage output is identical if not better, considering the mortal wounds it can deliver
lindsay40k wrote: A load of Noise Marines and Sorcerers is about as much of a Daemons of Slaanesh list and Yvraine and the Yncarne are a Drukhari list
Don’t get me wrong, I’ll play that - I’m a Word Bearer fluff player, I’m still trying to make Summoning work - but it’s not moving things forwards for Daemon purists :/
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: how are Daemonettes reliably getting T1 charges? 7” move, 2” from banner, that leaves 15” to cover with 3D6? Unless you go second and your opponent chooses to move closer to a horde of trainee genestealers? I’m experimenting with a Fiends list that stops people falling back from a Warptimed beatstick, and I need to throw a lot of units out there to make contact
The t1 charge is done by the tzeentch units and the seekers. Seekers move 14"+d6 and get 2d6 charge, if your lucky they will be in t1, if not t2 unless they take fire, at which point they are decently cheap so eh. Tzaangors get an 8" charge with bryhorn and the dark matter move them t1 outside 9", 8" charge with access to rerolls is pretty easy to do. The deamon prince of tzeentch as well has an amazingly easy chance to get t1 charge. Moves 12"+d6, warptime x2 that, aetherstride allows charge after advance and reroll failed charge. Thats minimum move of 26", maximum 32", with reroll 2d6 after, he is getting in.
Its t2 that the slaanesh deamons come into play. Assuming the tzaangors and dp of t get in and kill their target they have a great chance to get blown away, it probably will happen. But after the opponent waists shots on them how many shots will be left for the deamonettes and dp of slaanesh? Not enough is the key idea.
I am not going to NOVA with my Slaanesh - it won't be painted in time I suspect. Most of my opponents are testing NOVA lists now though, so the only games I am getting tend to be NOVA test games.
My list is:
666 - Zarakynel (Celerity of Slaanesh Warlord Trait)
76 - Warpsmith, Renegade Legion Trait, Mark of Slaanesh 98 - Sorcerer, Renegade Legion Trait, Mark of Slaanesh 40 - some cultists 40 - some cultists 40 - some cultists 169 - Defiler w/ Twin Heavy Bolter & Defiler Scourge 169 - Defiler w/ Twin Heavy Bolter & Defiler Scourge
1994 points, 13 CP
General idea of list: Anti-Tank units consist of Defiler and Zarakynel. Zarakynel is guaranteed 16-21" move before charge, one Defiler is guaranteed 18-28" move before charge. May take two turns to get into combat with tanks through screens. Daemon Prince is also anti-tank/tough stuff, though tends to be more of a pocket support character that hits like a truck.
Screens are not always an issue - Cacophonic Choir plus Zarakynel's native -2 plus Phantasmagoria means that a Leadership 7 Guard Squad is reduced to Leadership 4, making Cacophonic Choir quite useful, plus smite (since Zarakynel can cast 3 powers).
Anti-Duders (while also being support) are the Daemonettes, whose speed (9-14 before charging) means they can surround enemy units fairly easily to keep them from falling back - they are the second wave and butcher anything that the Big Defilers and Big Girly Herself couldn't be assed to deal with.
Curiously, Zarakynel is also anti-horde; on a 4+ to wound, her weapon does 3 mortal wounds instead of 3 normal damage. Against vehicles this is essentially the same, but against infantry/hordes, this is pretty amazing. Remember, mortal wounds spill over but damage does not.
Interestingly, the Defilers are also bullet-magnets. Zarakynel (sporting a 3++ at T8 from Warp Surge) often gets passed over in favor of the Defilers (5++ T7) because people feel like they can't one-shot her; this apparently means she's not worth shooting at all. *shrug*. The problem is, of course, that even if they do shoot her, a Daemonforged Warptimed Prescience Defiler is actually faster and killier against big targets, so... maybe they were right after all.
u still dont understand that against top lists t1 charges mean absolutely nothing.
IG= you wil charge chaffs and you obliterated then
Eldar= valuable targets start embarked, you must charge rangers/guardians then obliterated
De= read above
other demons= usually you clash against 60-90 pb and just bounce over them they you got burned by bloated drones/pbc or counter charged
Dont take me bad but also the opponet should play not put randomly unit on table and exposing himself to all your t1 charges, you dont really have idea how much firepower top lists can bring on table, there is a reason why 99% of competitive demon lists rely heavily on Nurgle nowadays.
Last tournament i faced a Tyr with 40 raptors and 30 hormagaunts, i placed my 60 Pb in front of anything and rest of my army behind (3 bloated drones 7 nurgle drones 3 Dp Ahriman)result he charged anything turn 1 on my -1/-2 to hit Pb kill some then burned out by drones and counter charged by nurgle drones, 40 genestealers+broodlord+30 hormagaunts dead from fire+melee+psyonic (and they hit very hard they have same save of ur demonettes/seekers but T4 and FNP at 5++), game over. Maybe you wont believe but that's main reason why no one play Slaanesh, btw most important is you have fun with your list, the rest matter nothing
Its not that I don't believe you, its that I am trying to find some way to make them work. Last time I took my deamons list against an eldar player who had 2 of the flyers with the auto-hitting high str shots and 14 dark reapers with a lot of shenanigans and stuff I had 0 issues against him, I had him beat by turn 2. I am not saying my list idea is the end all-be all of list ideas I am just trying to find some kind of competitive idea for them. You can tell me "that wont work because this" but I am trying to find a way to make it work better. example, if I dropped the Tzeentch stuff (which I have 0 problems doing) what could I put in its place to make the list work better? You say charges mean 0, I say thats why I am bringing so many noise marines, I plan on blasting through the chaff as quick as possible. Plus I like the lore and the units. Showing up to a competitive game with a semi-competitive list can have its own advantages, not every competitive game / tournament uses NOVA rules for example. Not getting angry or anything, sometimes its hard to understand the meaning behind the words when your reading them, but I really don't think flat dismissal of T1 assaults is a good idea, especially in this new era of "no Deep Strike Assaults T1", I have seen great lists destroyed because the opponent simply didn't realize that a T1 assault was possible so they did their deployment with coverage for T2 assaults.
blackmage wrote: u still dont understand that against top lists t1 charges mean absolutely nothing.
IG= you wil charge chaffs and you obliterated then
Eldar= valuable targets start embarked, you must charge rangers/guardians then obliterated
De= read above
other demons= usually you clash against 60-90 pb and just bounce over them they you got burned by bloated drones/pbc or counter charged
Dont take me bad but also the opponet should play not put randomly unit on table and exposing himself to all your t1 charges, you dont really have idea how much firepower top lists can bring on table, there is a reason why 99% of competitive demon lists rely heavily on Nurgle nowadays.
Last tournament i faced a Tyr with 40 raptors and 30 hormagaunts, i placed my 60 Pb in front of anything and rest of my army behind (3 bloated drones 7 nurgle drones 3 Dp Ahriman)result he charged anything turn 1 on my -1/-2 to hit Pb kill some then burned out by drones and counter charged by nurgle drones, 40 genestealers+broodlord+30 hormagaunts dead from fire+melee+psyonic (and they hit very hard they have same save of ur demonettes/seekers but T4 and FNP at 5++), game over. Maybe you wont believe but that's main reason why no one play Slaanesh, btw most important is you have fun with your list, the rest matter nothing
I'm not arguing that Slaanesh is top-tier tournament-competitive, but I will argue that it's perfectly competitive enough for casual games!
blackmage wrote: but you lost all detachment bonus+stratagems cause it is not a DEMON detachment
They would? Obliterators are daemons though. Do they not count in a detachment?
It's the difference between having something as a Faction Keyword and just as a regular Keyword. Obliterators are Daemons - they have the Daemon keyword - but they don't have it as a Faction Keyword (see the C:CSMFAQ). However, a Demon detachment is one where all units chosen have the Daemon Faction Keyword.
blackmage wrote: but you lost all detachment bonus+stratagems cause it is not a DEMON detachment
They would? Obliterators are daemons though. Do they not count in a detachment?
It's the difference between having something as a Faction Keyword and just as a regular Keyword. Obliterators are Daemons - they have the Daemon keyword - but they don't have it as a Faction Keyword (see the C:CSMFAQ). However, a Demon detachment is one where all units chosen have the Daemon Faction Keyword.
Adding that faqs have removed the daemon faction keyword from oblitorators which was a misprint in the codex.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.
Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.
yes IF you think to face lot of IK's they are decent choice, just bothering keep BT in AiP and spend two extra cp's and then hope in a 9" charge, keep it on table against IK is hazardous regardless of 3++.I still prefer skullreave dp with legendary fighter warlord trait it cant be targeted and damage output is identical if not better, considering the mortal wounds it can deliver
Oh, you absolutely start it on the table. You want it targeted. A distraction carnifex against an IK army needs to be BIG to draw attention.
I like the Defiler ideas I keep seeing floated about... 2 Defilers and a Gnarlmaw; means you can advance and charge a Knight and probably take a good chunk outta him!
Zid wrote: I like the Defiler ideas I keep seeing floated about... 2 Defilers and a Gnarlmaw; means you can advance and charge a Knight and probably take a good chunk outta him!
Might be an idea for another tourney list >.>
Hmm. I’m working towards a Slaaneshi Daemon engines rushdown list. I’m Marking my units with magnetised banners, so switching them into an Epidemius list now and then is an option. What’s the logistics of this? An M14+ Herald is easy to move up the board, what’s the order of play when it’s gashtrees that enable advance and charge?
I reckon Slaanesh might do it better, as a single Fiend of Slaanesh getting in there forces some tense decisions when allocating punches. If just one of those survives and hooks a unit fighting Defiler and Forgefiends (I know, I know - overcosted garagehammer nyerr, well if they get a good Advance roll it can mean T1 charges sans Warptime with ten attacks), it’s a nightmare for your opponent. They may be squishy, but now that Daemons have extraordinary T1 assault capabilities, that’s the difference between a regular tarpit and a tarpit that’s on fire with claws the size of cars
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: what loadout for twin Defiliers?
TAC suggests one should have flail, the other Heavy Flamers... especially if you’re getting a tree to enable Advance & shoot. BUT if you’re facing a Knight or three, and you lose first turn, they’re gonna focus fire at the flail one. Being able to fall back and shoot and charge gives the Heavy Bolters - flail combo moderate output against hordes, which in a Nurgle list is not a niche that’s heavily neglected? And if it’s Slaanesh, then anti horde is definitely covered, but Titanic-felling not so much - and at any rate, you don’t have access to Advance and shoot, making it somewhat redundant?
I think I’m gonna build both of mine with flails and reaper autocannons, so whichever one gets shot the other can Warptime and get snipping legs off a Knight, and build anti-horde into rest of the army. Adding a Maulerfiend feels alright. With a good Advance roll, it’s getting in there.
They're Slaanesh Daemons so I can have them within 6" of a character at the end of move+advance+warptime+advance (easily done with Zarakynel's 15" = advance move or the Daemon Prince's 12 + advance or the Herald's 14 + advance) and then I can charge.
They're Slaanesh Daemons so I can have them within 6" of a character at the end of move+advance+warptime+advance (easily done with Zarakynel's 15" = advance move or the Daemon Prince's 12 + advance or the Herald's 14 + advance) and then I can charge.
may i ask how you rid of chaffs to let your defilers charge something big and worth?
They're Slaanesh Daemons so I can have them within 6" of a character at the end of move+advance+warptime+advance (easily done with Zarakynel's 15" = advance move or the Daemon Prince's 12 + advance or the Herald's 14 + advance) and then I can charge.
may i ask how you rid of chaffs to let your defilers charge something big and worth?
Depends on the situation. Chaffs have been more and more absent from lists since Turn 1 DS. Other times I can use Zarakynel (explained in an earlier post) who can fairly trivially wipe a LD7 Guard Squad or LD6 Cultist Squad or most of an LD5 hormagaunt squad in the psychic phase.
Quick rabbit hole question for Zarakynel users - how tall is she, base to head? I made a KoS and thinking about fielding it as her to try these tactics out
They're Slaanesh Daemons so I can have them within 6" of a character at the end of move+advance+warptime+advance (easily done with Zarakynel's 15" = advance move or the Daemon Prince's 12 + advance or the Herald's 14 + advance) and then I can charge.
may i ask how you rid of chaffs to let your defilers charge something big and worth?
Depends on the situation. Chaffs have been more and more absent from lists since Turn 1 DS. Other times I can use Zarakynel (explained in an earlier post) who can fairly trivially wipe a LD7 Guard Squad or LD6 Cultist Squad or most of an LD5 hormagaunt squad in the psychic phase.
666 pts to delete 1 chaff? really inefficient remove maybe 40 cultist (160pts) with 666pts....
Depends on the situation. Chaffs have been more and more absent from lists since Turn 1 DS. Other times I can use Zarakynel (explained in an earlier post) who can fairly trivially wipe a LD7 Guard Squad or LD6 Cultist Squad or most of an LD5 hormagaunt squad in the psychic phase.
666 pts to delete 1 chaff? really inefficient remove maybe 40 cultist (160pts) with 666pts....
That's definitely not the only thing she'll be doing. And clearing the screen in order to allow other friendlies to make a charge sounds like a worthwhile purpose.
I also assume that she'll do other things throughout the game...she doesn't just disappear after T1....
Why are you so negative, blackmage? I feel like all your concerns about the Slaanesh list have been aired...now come up with some positive inputs!
vaklor4 wrote: I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.
Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.
Flesh hounds are on 50mm round bases these days. Still a pretty great model for board control, decent base size, medium cost, and quick. I really need to try out my bloodthirster again now that we have a codex. The great axe one just looks fun. With my luck I'll end up facing an infantry spam army and never swing the axe!
Depends on the situation. Chaffs have been more and more absent from lists since Turn 1 DS. Other times I can use Zarakynel (explained in an earlier post) who can fairly trivially wipe a LD7 Guard Squad or LD6 Cultist Squad or most of an LD5 hormagaunt squad in the psychic phase.
666 pts to delete 1 chaff? really inefficient remove maybe 40 cultist (160pts) with 666pts....
That's definitely not the only thing she'll be doing. And clearing the screen in order to allow other friendlies to make a charge sounds like a worthwhile purpose.
I also assume that she'll do other things throughout the game...she doesn't just disappear after T1....
Why are you so negative, blackmage? I feel like all your concerns about the Slaanesh list have been aired...now come up with some positive inputs!
im negative becuse i know competitve game that's all, btw each is free to play as he likes of course.
blackmage wrote:666 pts to delete 1 chaff? really inefficient remove maybe 40 cultist (160pts) with 666pts....
Did you read my post? She deletes them in the psychic phase (hence why I called out their leadership, for the Cacophonic Choir power), and then charges through the gap with her friends, doing other things.
Besides, it's a fact of life that you have to get through chaff. I don't think you're going to find a list without a lot of shooting support that will get to the meat of the enemy without going through chaff.
EDIT: It does depend on how big the unit is - 40 cultists is much harder to wipe than 10. But people tend to take units of 10 locally, and the people with units of 40 aren't any better off, because they end up pinned in their deployment zone by the unwieldyness of their own deployment.
and if you find someone dispelling your powers or you fail to cast (not impossible at all)? i know we are looking things from 2 different points, if in ur local meta they tend to play 10 cultist well i wont discuss anymore then Zarakynel is strong, i still would like to ask u? did you ever seen Zarakynel played in some competitive event? I agree in casual games she can be a tank but against top lists she is not, btw i dont want to convince u,u have the right for your opinions and way to play, i play at certain level and i need a specific kind of lists to compete, this said im sure you can have lot of fun with your list, peace out.
Zid wrote: I like the Defiler ideas I keep seeing floated about... 2 Defilers and a Gnarlmaw; means you can advance and charge a Knight and probably take a good chunk outta him!
Might be an idea for another tourney list >.>
Hmm. I’m working towards a Slaaneshi Daemon engines rushdown list. I’m Marking my units with magnetised banners, so switching them into an Epidemius list now and then is an option. What’s the logistics of this? An M14+ Herald is easy to move up the board, what’s the order of play when it’s gashtrees that enable advance and charge?
I reckon Slaanesh might do it better, as a single Fiend of Slaanesh getting in there forces some tense decisions when allocating punches. If just one of those survives and hooks a unit fighting Defiler and Forgefiends (I know, I know - overcosted garagehammer nyerr, well if they get a good Advance roll it can mean T1 charges sans Warptime with ten attacks), it’s a nightmare for your opponent. They may be squishy, but now that Daemons have extraordinary T1 assault capabilities, that’s the difference between a regular tarpit and a tarpit that’s on fire with claws the size of cars
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: what loadout for twin Defiliers?
TAC suggests one should have flail, the other Heavy Flamers... especially if you’re getting a tree to enable Advance & shoot. BUT if you’re facing a Knight or three, and you lose first turn, they’re gonna focus fire at the flail one. Being able to fall back and shoot and charge gives the Heavy Bolters - flail combo moderate output against hordes, which in a Nurgle list is not a niche that’s heavily neglected? And if it’s Slaanesh, then anti horde is definitely covered, but Titanic-felling not so much - and at any rate, you don’t have access to Advance and shoot, making it somewhat redundant?
I think I’m gonna build both of mine with flails and reaper autocannons, so whichever one gets shot the other can Warptime and get snipping legs off a Knight, and build anti-horde into rest of the army. Adding a Maulerfiend feels alright. With a good Advance roll, it’s getting in there.
I would just make them super cheap with the flail; defilers shooting is awful, charge them in and whoop on whatever you can reach. If they want to FF on them, go ahead, generally you have even bigger threats not too far behind!
blackmage wrote:and if you find someone dispelling your powers or you fail to cast (not impossible at all)? i know we are looking things from 2 different points, if in ur local meta they tend to play 10 cultist well i wont discuss anymore then Zarakynel is strong, i still would like to ask u? did you ever seen Zarakynel played in some competitive event? I agree in casual games she can be a tank but against top lists she is not, btw i dont want to convince u,u have the right for your opinions and way to play, i play at certain level and i need a specific kind of lists to compete, this said im sure you can have lot of fun with your list, peace out.
Oh no, I know Zarakynel's not actually worth it points-cost wise; even my opponents agree she should be like 440 after she finishes wrecking them. But it's what works for me, and as you say, it's fine.
yes those FW demons have weird cost they put the God sacred number 666 for her 777 for Nurgle and 888 for Korne... Fw things we already know they set cost randomly with no sense
blackmage wrote: yes those FW demons have weird cost they put the God sacred number 666 for her 777 for Nurgle and 888 for Korne... Fw things we already know they set cost randomly with no sense
She used to be more reasonably costed at like 400pts but then chapter approved made her 666 pts again for gimmick sake, it is such a stupid gimmick
blackmage wrote: yes those FW demons have weird cost they put the God sacred number 666 for her 777 for Nurgle and 888 for Korne... Fw things we already know they set cost randomly with no sense
She used to be more reasonably costed at like 400pts but then chapter approved made her 666 pts again for gimmick sake, it is such a stupid gimmick
clearly Gw wont let FWGD be played , 777pts for FWGuo?? 888 for FWBT?? fool
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I'm starting a Slaaneshi daemons army and was wondering if a double thermal cannon knight would be a good support unit for them to melt tanks
yes but problem is that will be your only armor in list so it will attract all anti tank fire, im going to try too renegades in my Nurgle demon list, but i will play 2 armigers and maybe 2 contemptors too, so i give some target saturation to anti tank fire.
Yeah. Zarakynel was I think 440? 460? Before Chapter Approved.
What happened was Aetos'Rau'Kheres or whatever, the Tzeench Exalted Greater Daemon, was crushing it at tournaments. So clearly the problem is every greater Daemon.
I will say this though: Zarakynel's not far off from being 666 points. She needs more wounds, a better invuln, or something to increase her durability. She has a -1 to-hit in the Fight phase, perhaps just extending that to the shooting phase... hm. Something small. Right now? She's fairly tough but not 1/3rd of a 2k list tough.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: It's a shame they'll likely never revisit the rules for these units. :( Points, sure, but many of their rules need some revision.
That depends. FW just revisited the rules for the Exalted Keeper of Secrets (zarakynel but for AOS) and wrote up a good, solid batch of rules that makes excellent sense. There's a Slaanesh release rumored for AOS later this year / Q1 2019, and if it's anything like the Tzeench book was with Codex: Thousand Sons, there will be a 40k release too.
I bet FW will re-look at the units. Perhaps even in the next Chapter Approved they'll revisit the points costs - if not, though, no skin off my bones. Zarakynel would be worth 666 points with a 3++, and now I can get her that anyways for 2 CP. I hate spending the 2 CP sure, but it's not crippling. What cripples me is the awfulness of the rest of the Daemons book - taking two battalions with Zarakynel is just awful and gives you no other heavy hitters besides her and a DP.
At least Forgeworld isn't OPOMGWTH like it was in the past... of course, I think they took it too far the other way; overcosting everything to make it "for funsee's". Might see a large change now with the citadel in the US providing somewhere to go get your FW on.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found in my experience that Flesh Hounds are pretty fun against Knights. They aren't infantry so Knights can't do diddly once locked in with them, and their biker base means that they can easily surround a knight, especially positioned correctly with their high movement.
Another good option is oddly enough, the great axe bloodthirster. Give it the +1 invuln and spend 2 CP to pump it to 3++ save, and you'd be suprised how much fire power they'll load into that thing just to take it down, ignoring all your other threats.
Flesh hounds are on 50mm round bases these days. Still a pretty great model for board control, decent base size, medium cost, and quick. I really need to try out my bloodthirster again now that we have a codex. The great axe one just looks fun. With my luck I'll end up facing an infantry spam army and never swing the axe!
I use Chaos Hounds for my Flesh Hounds, because they're cheaper, and they look far better. This also unfortunatly means all my bases are biker bases And putting them on 50mm would be ridiculous. I also think putting a 15 point model on a 50mm is in itself ridiculous, even though I know they'd do a better job at tarpitting.
Rydria wrote: I'd probably prefer it if they changed the forge world daemon lords to being generic than being special characters, like they are in age of sigmar
Yes, though I think in that case, they should be cheaper (like in Sigmar) but also less good (like in Sigmar... kinda? Haven't played enough to know but I assume doing your damage as Mortal Wounds is more powerful than not).
I actually think a 666-point Zarakynel is a neat, fluffy, kinda funny thing, provided she's worth it. The problem with her now is that she either should be like 440-460 and generic, or she should stay 666 and special but be buffed (like I've said, even something as simple as applying her -1 to be hit with melee attacks to all attacks. Or at least overwatch. ).
BoomWolf wrote: 440?hell no. We've been there and saw her terror as a one of, if you had multiples it would be horrendous.
She's not bad even at 666 just not to turny top , honestly if she had a few more wounds, she's be great even there.
Right, like I said, with a small buff (a few more wounds is an example of a small buff) she'd be fine at 666.
But if you seriously think she's not worth 440/460 currently, you're deluded. My entire casual play group thinks she's way overpriced at 666. Knight Gallants have a comparable save (3+/5++ is kinda like 4++), 4 more wounds, 250% more attacks at Str 8 or it can double its strength to 16(!) with only 1 fewer attack, same speed, better shooting (i.e. literally any), for 354 points. The Gallant also has access to Relics, while as a named character, Zarakynel cannot be customized.
Meanwhile, Zarakynel is a psyker, though she gets no noticeable bonuses, and does mortal wounds in combat for just a bee's dick shy of twice as many points.
I dont understand your logic is you think a "small buff" would make her good at 666, but she's not completely crazy at 460?
That's 200 point gap. that's not "small buff" level of gap.
Zara is a beast. she MULCHES a knight in CC-she has effective 3++ in CC (effective 2++ if you invest in warp surge) and with the soulstealer-the knight don't get saves.
Slanessh has a lot of ways to lower enemy attacks, wreck enemy LD, and abuse wrecked LD.
Zara is FAR stronger than magnus/morty, and should not cost like them. let alone be repeatable.
BoomWolf wrote: I dont understand your logic is you think a "small buff" would make her good at 666, but she's not completely crazy at 460?
That's 200 point gap. that's not "small buff" level of gap.
Zara is a beast. she MULCHES a knight in CC-she has effective 3++ in CC (effective 2++ if you invest in warp surge) and with the soulstealer-the knight don't get saves. Slanessh has a lot of ways to lower enemy attacks, wreck enemy LD, and abuse wrecked LD.
Zara is FAR stronger than magnus/morty, and should not cost like them. let alone be repeatable.
She doesn't actually mulch a knight in CC, really. She takes 3 turns, on average, to kill one, during which it is either blasting her in the face with far, far more powerful weapons while still getting to attack first in combat on its turn, as it can fall back and shoot and charge, and/or using Death Grip to utterly ignore her invuln saves and do mortal wounds every time their d6+1 beats my d6. It doesn't really matter if she has an invuln save or not if they have a fist and can Death Grip her a couple of times. She's 1 strength lower than them, so breaking out is actually quite difficult.
And yes, Slaanesh has lots of ways to do those things, but Zarakynel doesn't (Well, she does lower LD, for what it's worth ).
Zarakynel is not stronger than Magnus or Mortarion, at least according to my play group's experience with her. Mortarion has real buffs he can get, including a -1 to-hit while having a great Mortal Wound aura, and Magnus doesn't have to get into combat to do his damage. They both also are far more maneuverable with the Fly keyword. You can keep Zarakynel from assaulting you by being higher than an inch off the ground...
Not sure about Zarakynel or Slaanesh in general these days, kinda waiting for Fulgrim (fingers crossed!).....but I do think Angraath is a super Knight killer!
People are really advocating for "fluffy" unit costs? I don't see how this makes the unit fun to use - it really just de-incentivizes fluffy lists honestly - as they can't be used against decent armies. I feel there is a real shade of bias of people saying the greater daemons are well costed - there is a reason they are scarcely seen in ANY list - and it isn't because "omg forgeworld too expensive"
The fact the community is divided on this probably means it won't be fixed... disheratening and unbelievable - time to relegate these models to the shelf (RIP Aetaos'rau'keres - who is apparently "well costed" at 1500)...
I don't think the "doesn't belong in smaller games" thing works very well in this edition. If the big units aren't worth their points, being part of a huge game isn't going to change that IMO.
orkswubwub wrote: People are really advocating for "fluffy" unit costs? I don't see how this makes the unit fun to use - it really just de-incentivizes fluffy lists honestly - as they can't be used against decent armies. I feel there is a real shade of bias of people saying the greater daemons are well costed - there is a reason they are scarcely seen in ANY list - and it isn't because "omg forgeworld too expensive"
The fact the community is divided on this probably means it won't be fixed... disheratening and unbelievable - time to relegate these models to the shelf (RIP Aetaos'rau'keres - who is apparently "well costed" at 1500)...
Well, he could be well-costed at 1500. He just needs buffs!
But yeah, there are people saying Zarakynel is worth almost twice the points of a Knight Gallant for unclear reasons.
blackmage wrote: EVERY FWGd is overcosted, period, 888pt for the Korne one? seriously? 1500 for Tz one?
Funny enough, the Khorne one got hit the least hard out of the 4. Only got a 188 point increase, which in my mind doens't totally break him in half, like how bird boy got obliterated.
Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.
A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).
Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.
A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).
Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.
yes im testing double gatling IK+2 armiger with my Nurgle Battalion+ Ts supreme command
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.
A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).
Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.
yes im testing double gatling IK+2 armiger with my Nurgle Battalion+ Ts supreme command
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.
A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).
Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.
yes im testing double gatling IK+2 armiger with my Nurgle Battalion+ Ts supreme command
What’s working in the Nurgle detachment btw?
not sure what you meant... btw... Nurgle demons works fine with Dg whole demons detachments like outrider with 3 bloated drones+Dp or spearhead with 3 PBC+Dp, not sure if i answered ur question.
Dactylartha wrote: What are people finding as a good unit size for fiends of Slanesh?
Been trying them out on and off. Ones and twos seem ok. If you’ve got something else to eat overwatch, a single can tag a tank and shut down it’s guns, but will need backup to avoid getting pulled apart by a counter attack unit. A pair can charge a moderately shooty unit on their own and have enough survive overwatch to lock it down a turn. A load of solo Fiends have got an ok chance of one of them executing a T1 charge, but you’ll want a Warptimed unit to join them as a lot of screens have the capability to kill it by weight of attacks. Best case scenario is something scary like a Defiler or KoS joins it and stamps the remaining members of the victim unit to death in the enemy’s turn. Renegade Berzerkers can fairly reliably make it if they disembark and Warptime - just don’t go all in on the charge and let your opponent remove the models hugging the fiend.
Main trouble I find is the base. 40mm is comedically tiny for a model of this size, and using a larger one with this kind of superpower is definitely going to raise eyebrows.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, be wary of Smite. Don’t want to get blatted in the psychic phase. Pairs of Fiends are one solution, but an accompanying unit with disposable wounds is preferable.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone considered having a renegade knight added as an ally to their Daemon lists? A Gallant seems to be like a pretty effective distraction Carnefix.
A double avenger gun knight as not only a distraction carnefix but also good at clearing out chaff (but its more expensive).
Now can raise ion shields, so renegade knights have 4++ when we want them to. Makes them pretty sturdy. I am not suggesting go all knights, but having just one may add a lot to Daemons.
Personally, if I'm going to in invest that in a knight, I would take something else that costs a little bit more if not the same (GUO, LoC, Mortarian, Magnus) to do the same job, but provide other bonuses too (psychic powers, etc.)
You have to sink a LOT of CP into the Knights to make them viable, which I feel are better spent on things like Warp Surge, the Plaguebearer bonus banner, etc. Plus Knights are pretty solo.
The most I would be willing to do is the double AC Armigers, but even then... I still don't like that they bring no synergy to the list.
Dactylartha wrote: What are people finding as a good unit size for fiends of Slanesh?
Been trying them out on and off. Ones and twos seem ok. If you’ve got something else to eat overwatch, a single can tag a tank and shut down it’s guns, but will need backup to avoid getting pulled apart by a counter attack unit. A pair can charge a moderately shooty unit on their own and have enough survive overwatch to lock it down a turn. A load of solo Fiends have got an ok chance of one of them executing a T1 charge, but you’ll want a Warptimed unit to join them as a lot of screens have the capability to kill it by weight of attacks. Best case scenario is something scary like a Defiler or KoS joins it and stamps the remaining members of the victim unit to death in the enemy’s turn. Renegade Berzerkers can fairly reliably make it if they disembark and Warptime - just don’t go all in on the charge and let your opponent remove the models hugging the fiend.
Main trouble I find is the base. 40mm is comedically tiny for a model of this size, and using a larger one with this kind of superpower is definitely going to raise eyebrows.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, be wary of Smite. Don’t want to get blatted in the psychic phase. Pairs of Fiends are one solution, but an accompanying unit with disposable wounds is preferable.
Thanks for this. Right now I only have one, and it's the dark elf clawed fiend since i really don't like the boobed anteater model. Working on building up my summoning options as right now I only have Khorne Dawgs and KARANAK And Skarbrand. I need more gimmick summons and was hoping the fiend(s) would do the trick.
I suppose quite a few of us invested in Horticulous and a bunch of trees. How are they caring since the big FAQ? AFAICT, the new deep strike rules have somewhat nerfed this combo?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: I don't think the "doesn't belong in smaller games" thing works very well in this edition. If the big units aren't worth their points, being part of a huge game isn't going to change that IMO.
Locally we use power level in apoc and most games over 3K. Those games are also more about just putting your whole collection down, so the sub par pointed units show up pretty often. Plus, I've never been to a competitive apoc game, though I have seen a WAAC player at an apoc game, and they did not have a good time lol.
What is everyone's thoughts on the best daemon prince? I'm bringing a small nurgling battalion with a poxbringer and daemon prince for some DG support. I realized that the locus might not help me too much, would a khorne axe DP be a better choice?
Alright I've been out of the game for a long time now...
The 40k Match Play FAQ rules are 'beta.' Meaning that half of your Power Level total needs to be on the table. Where are the limits of Turn1 deepstrike everyone keeps talking about? What are the limits of using stratagems to deepstrike my letters and horrors? Can anyone point me in the right direction of getting caught up with the current rules?
spaceclown wrote: Alright I've been out of the game for a long time now...
The 40k Match Play FAQ rules are 'beta.' Meaning that half of your Power Level total needs to be on the table. Where are the limits of Turn1 deepstrike everyone keeps talking about? What are the limits of using stratagems to deepstrike my letters and horrors? Can anyone point me in the right direction of getting caught up with the current rules?
spaceclown wrote: Alright I've been out of the game for a long time now...
The 40k Match Play FAQ rules are 'beta.' Meaning that half of your Power Level total needs to be on the table. Where are the limits of Turn1 deepstrike everyone keeps talking about? What are the limits of using stratagems to deepstrike my letters and horrors? Can anyone point me in the right direction of getting caught up with the current rules?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: I don't think the "doesn't belong in smaller games" thing works very well in this edition. If the big units aren't worth their points, being part of a huge game isn't going to change that IMO.
Locally we use power level in apoc and most games over 3K. Those games are also more about just putting your whole collection down, so the sub par pointed units show up pretty often. Plus, I've never been to a competitive apoc game, though I have seen a WAAC player at an apoc game, and they did not have a good time lol.
What is everyone's thoughts on the best daemon prince? I'm bringing a small nurgling battalion with a poxbringer and daemon prince for some DG support. I realized that the locus might not help me too much, would a khorne axe DP be a better choice?
Sooooo there are a lot of options when it comes to demon princes, but as far as Codex: Demons princes are concerned:
* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Virulent Blessing, Corruption, Claw, wings - While it only gets 4 attacks with the sword, each has the capability of being D7 (D3 damage x 2 + 1 on a roll of a 6). Top it off with AP -3, and reroll all hits and wounds at Str 9.... hes hurting everything in the game currently on a 2+ with blessing. Great character hunter or tank hunter.
* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Blessing or Miasma, Double Claws, Nurgles horn (if you want a relic), wings - Great troop mower that can replenish your PLaguebearer units. Miasma makes him harder to kill, while blessing helps him kill more effectively because he does not get rerolls on wounds. As well, can be D5 each attack (with 7 attacks, you do the math)
* Khorne Demon Prince w/ Skullreaver and wings - Character assassin or titan hunter, dudes a monster. I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.
Those are probably the best builds I can think of from Codex: Demons. Sadly Tzeentch princes in 1k Sons codex are the best, and honestly Codex: CSM Slaanesh prince is better than his demons counterpart because of the Elixir and Diabolic Strength (makes him 9 Str 9 attacks... pretty bonkers). Nurgle Demon Princes between DG and Nurgle are equally as good, just depends on your army composition to be honest.
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Azuza001 wrote: Yes its still in beta but as far as i can tell everyone uses it.
Yes, because its most likely going to be official because the T1 deepstrikes as they were were pretty broken. Now only certain armies can do it, and it makes mobile armies more desirable (pre-faq you would never see slaanesh armies, now they are way better.... still rare, but way better)
tokugawa wrote: Has anyone tested the relic "Skullreaver" against the new Imperial Knights?
It works. It works real well. Although, i've found that a CSM axe prince buffed out the butt with psychic buffs is just as effective. That being said, if you want 100% khorne fluff and forgo all psychics, take it for sure, it's almost a NEED against Titans as a Khorne army.
cant be as effective... axe has not ap-4 gives not +3 str doesn't deal d6 damage+mortal wounds doesn't let you re roll failed wounds against titanic models and last but not least skullreaver works with no need to use psy powers or stratagems (both can be denied), so no, skullreaver Dp is unique.
spaceclown wrote: Can any Tzeentch Daemon players chime in on which units/combo's worked for them?
I like the LoC on the look of the model but it's a shame he can only cast two spells..
Going with a Pink Horror blob as Tactical Reserve Turn 2.
LOC is pretty good, though not an amazing must have if you make him the warlord and give him impossible robe for 3++/2++. Most of the Tzeentch spells kind of suck anyways so limited spells isn't too painful and his casting bonus is useful for the hard to cast spells like flickering fire. I typically use mine with sword, infernal gateway, and flickering fire but you can easily do a support build with rod, fire, and boon of change.
spaceclown wrote: Can any Tzeentch Daemon players chime in on which units/combo's worked for them?
I like the LoC on the look of the model but it's a shame he can only cast two spells..
Going with a Pink Horror blob as Tactical Reserve Turn 2.
The obvious combo is the 20-30 Pink Horrors w/ Changecaster and Daemon Prince nearby utilizing Daemonspark, Flickering Fire, and even Boon of Change. Don't discount Flamers either, since they can drop is 9-12" away and flame on out to 12." I have done a PInk Horror, Flamer and Changecaster bomb to great effect, since you are capitalizing on the Changecaster +1 Str, and the re-roll wounds of 1 from Daemonspark.
I also like running a DP with Screamers as a 1, 2 punch melee/screen combo.
I like taking a small Spearhead Detachment of Tsons, a TSon Deamon Prince and 3 Mutalith Vortex Beasts if you want to stick with the pure (ish) deamons idea. Well, they will look like deamons on the table anyways. Mutaliths can really REALLY make Tzeentch Deamons scary.
Azuza001 wrote: I like taking a small Spearhead Detachment of Tsons, a TSon Deamon Prince and 3 Mutalith Vortex Beasts if you want to stick with the pure (ish) deamons idea. Well, they will look like deamons on the table anyways. Mutaliths can really REALLY make Tzeentch Deamons scary.
That's a nice idea, however 3 mutaliths is a bit much...Because just...Yeah. I don't forsee a lot of people dumping that much cash on 3 mono-build monster units.
Maybe not three of a kind? A couple of Maulerfiends, throw Warptime and Diabolical Strength, maybe Glamour as well on one of them... if your Horrors open a decent hole in the enemy line, that could be a bit of a pain. If you’re a fan of the aesthetic of Screamers, Idoneth Deepkin present some interesting project options for building them. Maybe not tourney tier, but seems likely viable for casual play.
My spearhead normally runs Dp, 2 mutalith, and a defiler, but again i was suggesting while keeping with the spirit of deamons and the defiler starts getting into chaos marines land.
I have also had a lot of luck running multiple solid detachments of chaos, like 1 detachment pure slaanesh, 1 pure khorne, and 1 pure tzeentch at a time. Gives everyone their bonuses and each has a roll. Slaanesh is to hit first. Then khorne is able to hit hard, while tzeentch covers fire support / harassment issues.
The idea of a pure deamon list (just one God and only deamons) is too much of a handycap this edition.
Azuza001 wrote: My spearhead normally runs Dp, 2 mutalith, and a defiler, but again i was suggesting while keeping with the spirit of deamons and the defiler starts getting into chaos marines land.
I have also had a lot of luck running multiple solid detachments of chaos, like 1 detachment pure slaanesh, 1 pure khorne, and 1 pure tzeentch at a time. Gives everyone their bonuses and each has a roll. Slaanesh is to hit first. Then khorne is able to hit hard, while tzeentch covers fire support / harassment issues.
The idea of a pure deamon list (just one God and only deamons) is too much of a handycap this edition.
I appreciate that! Thank you! I'll add these mutaliths to my list. It is a handicap but I like the fluff too mic
Zid wrote: Sooooo there are a lot of options when it comes to demon princes, but as far as Codex: Demons princes are concerned:
* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Virulent Blessing, Corruption, Claw, wings - While it only gets 4 attacks with the sword, each has the capability of being D7 (D3 damage x 2 + 1 on a roll of a 6). Top it off with AP -3, and reroll all hits and wounds at Str 9.... hes hurting everything in the game currently on a 2+ with blessing. Great character hunter or tank hunter.
* Nurgle Demon Prince w/ Blessing or Miasma, Double Claws, Nurgles horn (if you want a relic), wings - Great troop mower that can replenish your PLaguebearer units. Miasma makes him harder to kill, while blessing helps him kill more effectively because he does not get rerolls on wounds. As well, can be D5 each attack (with 7 attacks, you do the math)
* Khorne Demon Prince w/ Skullreaver and wings - Character assassin or titan hunter, dudes a monster. I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.
Those are probably the best builds I can think of from Codex: Demons. Sadly Tzeentch princes in 1k Sons codex are the best, and honestly Codex: CSM Slaanesh prince is better than his demons counterpart because of the Elixir and Diabolic Strength (makes him 9 Str 9 attacks... pretty bonkers). Nurgle Demon Princes between DG and Nurgle are equally as good, just depends on your army composition to be honest.
That got me thinking about an army with all the best DPs:
Zid wrote: I would not, however, run a battalion of Khorne; at most a patrol. They just don't have great troop options like Tzeentch or Nurgle.
I contest this! Bloodletter bombs are definitely still a thing and are fantastic when facing any army without invulnerable saves on their troops, they're even pretty good at taking down knights (with a DP and Skarbrand, a 20 man unit will destroy an unwounded Knight on the charge).
Quite a lot of the time, a late game Bloodletter bomb will devastate your opponent when they know longer have enough units to screen against them.
bloodletter bomb is still fine, if in the september FAQ they will bring back 1st turn DS like pre faq they will be a powerhorse like before and will change meta again.
I can only hope between the September FAQ and the next Chapter Approved something happens to bring my Daemons off the shelf. I've missed my Tzeentch boys.
Cephalobeard wrote: I, respectfully, disagree with that definition of competitive, but am glad if they're working well enough for you to feel that way.
Genuinely.
well you can disagree but tournament results speak clearly (mine and others around the world), im sorry if they destroyed your brimstone+character spam list, sincerely
Yes, forgive me, a handful of *Nurgle* lists have been able to place within the top 8 of a fair few major events according to the larger BCP events that I looked through online.
Trying to be snarky about Brimstones/Characters doesn't bother me, i'm not losing sleep over a facet of an army, I'm upset about the other 3 arms of the faction not functioning on par with not only the fourth, but the other factions in the game as it stands.
You'll find I worded what I wrote very specifically, and said I hope chapter approved makes some changes for *my* Daemons, and that I miss my *Tzeentch Daemons*.
I'm glad Nurgles doing well. Thrilled for them, even. However, to me that feels more like saying "Custodes are really strong!" when the correct statement is that Custodes bikes, specifically, are doing quite well.
. And when you can add an additional cast per turn, access to Death Hex and Warptime and 6'' to the range of casts to your 
Just run three of them and you’ll be alright 
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10020016 33a7e5b50b333f3e1f1e3fda5802cb0a.jpg wrote:What was your list for the tourney and how did it play? And what did you face? Also any thoughts on Rotigus instead of a standard 
