jmurph wrote: Yeah, part of the problem is that the show seems afraid to have any real morality debates and so the group has to be portrayed as always good/right and bad guys as clearly bad and need to be killed. Which is a shame as real people don't really work that way and are often many shades of grey.
The Governor is a perfect example of the ham fisted approach. They had a great opportunity to show him as a man doing what he thinks necessary to protect those around him. Brutal, and maybe misguided and cruel, but with a protective streak. But no, needed a stupid plot zombie and he had to shoot back to twirling mustache evil and public decapitation for reasons.
Likewise, Rick and crews cold blooded extermination of a Saviors outpost was pretty much glossed over as necessary because they are all bad. And subsequently justified in show by having every Savior inexplicably loyal to a bombastic, brutal, strongman and showing lots of scummy behavior so they can be offed without consequence.
That's true. For a while there they could have gone in a direction that was more compelling than the original comic storyline but instead decided to go with less compelling...
I thought the clipped sentence style of speech was overdone and distracting. I'm willing to believe that you'd see new cultures and philosophies emerge after a few years post-apocalypse (we'll certainly see more of this down the road), but I'm not sure why they'd be talking like cartoon cavemen.
I thought the Carol/Daryl interaction -- and his decision in particular -- was the highlight.
Yeah, they was bizarre and not in a good way. They grafted a lame 80s style post apoc group in and it didn't make any sense. So we are supposed to believe that these guys and the Survivors have never bumped into each other? Really? Maybe because they are all dressed in black? I dunno. The speaking pattern was really stupid.
Anyway, with their Hoarders enclave, I am surprised they aren't rife with disease and infections. And, apparently, have no problems living amongst walls of easily collapsed garbage.
And the whole take, not bother made no sense whatsoever. Bother who? The frigging supplies they wanted were unguarded.
I was hoping for more of a savage, feral group that had developed stealth/fieldcraft over direct confrontation, but was increasingly desperate for supplies and unwilling to attack the Survivors directly who they saw as too heavily armed. More bushwhacking practical scavengers and less goth hoarders.
I would also have accepted some honest to god mutants that look like some kind of horrible walker human hybrid, but are alive and immune to the disease.
jmurph wrote: Yeah, they was bizarre and not in a good way. They grafted a lame 80s style post apoc group in and it didn't make any sense. So we are supposed to believe that these guys and the Survivors have never bumped into each other? Really? Maybe because they are all dressed in black? I dunno. The speaking pattern was really stupid.
Anyway, with their Hoarders enclave, I am surprised they aren't rife with disease and infections. And, apparently, have no problems living amongst walls of easily collapsed garbage.
And the whole take, not bother made no sense whatsoever. Bother who? The frigging supplies they wanted were unguarded.
Well, other than the whole lake full of zombies.
I was hoping for more of a savage, feral group that had developed stealth/fieldcraft over direct confrontation, but was increasingly desperate for supplies and unwilling to attack the Survivors directly who they saw as too heavily armed. More bushwhacking practical scavengers and less goth hoarders.
They seemed to have developed stealth/fieldcraft pretty well...seeing as how they "bushwhacked" Gabriel inside of Alexandria itself.
The actor playing Gabriel confirmed that the one he pulled a knife on was actually in the car. That was the whole point of the story he told Rick about being on guard during the night, hearing something, and then running across her in the Pantry.
I would also have accepted some honest to god mutants that look like some kind of horrible walker human hybrid, but are alive and immune to the disease.
So...Fallout is more acceptable than an "80s post apoc group"?
The show really didn't need a fourth group of survivors. Between the survivors of Alexandria with their hardened and experienced core of fighters (Rick & Co.), the Hilltop and the Kingdom, there should have been more than enough people for Rick's army. At least, if they hadn't diminished the population of the Hilltop.
Hell, the Kingdom appears to be the largest settlement so far (before this new stupid invention by the show) and they're already militarised - seriously, they're training their own medieval style Knights with mounted cavalry, archers and even axes (did anyone else notice that massive feth-off badass battle axe that Ezekiel's jovial black bodyguard was carrying?).
I get that they wanted to pad the show out with filler, but they could have easily substituted the Kingdom in place of the junkyard scavengers. Ezekiel is reluctant to join the alliance, so makes a demand for a large amount of firearms as a condition for the Kingdom joining the alliance, thinking its an impossible task.
The rest of the episode could have been spent with Rick and Co. exploring DC and scouting or scavenging for weapons. And then at the end of the episode they locate some location like a military base or police station infested with a huge amount of walkers (like several hundred or thousand), which would have been a good set up for a future action packed filler episode to stretch the Season out even further.
Weird group discovered there. Way back when they encountered the Hospital Slavers I said this is the direction the show needs to go in. Like the Star Trek of the Apocalypse boldly meeting new groups of suvivors but this is right on the line of what's believable. Felt like I was watching Mad Max. They're lifestyle is believable but what's up with the way they talk? It's only been like 5 years since the end of the world and we're developing some kind of proto-dialect? Like I said right on the line of plausible but not over it I think.
Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.
Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.
They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.
Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.
If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The show really didn't need a fourth group of survivors. Between the survivors of Alexandria with their hardened and experienced core of fighters (Rick & Co.), the Hilltop and the Kingdom, there should have been more than enough people for Rick's army. At least, if they hadn't diminished the population of the Hilltop.
There already is a fourth group - you've forgotten the Very Well Armed and Trigger Happy Fishing Village of Only Women (Oceanside?) that already has good reason to fear AND hate the Saviors.
Last episode is already settinh up Tara's moral conflict in regards to them too...
So pretty soon it will be five groups vs. The Saviors.
All Out War indeed!!!
It is going to be so over the top and ridiculous - and probably not in a good way!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The show really didn't need a fourth group of survivors. Between the survivors of Alexandria with their hardened and experienced core of fighters (Rick & Co.), the Hilltop and the Kingdom, there should have been more than enough people for Rick's army. At least, if they hadn't diminished the population of the Hilltop.
There already is a fourth group - you've forgotten the Very Well Armed and Trigger Happy Fishing Village of Only Women (Oceanside?) that already has good reason to fear AND hate the Saviors.
Last episode is already settinh up Tara's moral conflict in regards to them too...
So pretty soon it will be five groups vs. The Saviors.
All Out War indeed!!!
It is going to be so over the top and ridiculous - and probably not in a good way!
Good point but I'd forgotten and written them off as just a one off filler episode to introduce the oceanside group early...
Spoiler:
so it would more sense after the two year time jump, if the show does a time jump, for Oceanside to suddenly make an appearance on the show next season. They'd have already introduced and foreshadowed them this season.
But then again that would require subtlety and foresight, and this show has none of either.
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Mr Morden wrote: We still have no idea of the size of the Saviours.
It appeared quite a small group when Negan was grandstanding to Carl but they seem to have loads of fighters?
They have multiple outposts, both in the comics and TV show. The outpost rick and co. hit had dozens of people. And then Negan showed up with several dozen more people.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.
Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.
They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.
Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.
If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then
Make it a bit more interesting guys.....
Ha, ya that drives me crazy. It's like Grand Theft TWD out there. Every car starts up just fine and has a full tank of gas - just press the Y button. Everyone just drives everywhere so I don't see the impetus of having to deal with evil empires like The Saviors Without Number. Just drive off - like Mad Max. Everyone should be talking a lot more about where to get the precious "juice".
I can't remember the last time anyone drove anywhere in the comic. It took them months to walk northwards though America. I don't know why the show feels the need to show people driving. It's not like the actors really need to walk the distance....just... act like you walked far.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.
Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.
They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.
Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.
If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then
Make it a bit more interesting guys.....
Ha, ya that drives me crazy. It's like Grand Theft TWD out there. Every car starts up just fine and has a full tank of gas - just press the Y button. Everyone just drives everywhere so I don't see the impetus of having to deal with evil empires like The Saviors Without Number. Just drive off - like Mad Max. Everyone should be talking a lot more about where to get the precious "juice".
I can't remember the last time anyone drove anywhere in the comic. It took them months to walk northwards though America. I don't know why the show feels the need to show people driving. It's not like the actors really need to walk the distance....just... act like you walked far.
As silly as it might seem, I can actually get behind the "driving everywhere" thing. FTWD showed that the initial containment efforts and panic ended up with massively congested roadways...and people bailing out of their cars to walk instead. You had some people refusing to get out of their cars or getting locked back in if they looked to be infected, with the people taking the keys away from those they thought to be infected.
Plus, at least this season, we know that the Saviors have been using cars as traps and ways of "herding" the walkers. They wouldn't be using cars low on gas for that kind of stuff, right?
I think that there's a 'real world problem' with gas lasting as long as it apparently has in The Walking Dead world too, but for whatever reason, that doesn't really bother me.
Considering the huge and sudden population crash I do see gasoline being around a couple years but that's it. By now every drop would be precious and used for generators more than car driving.
I suppose the real life explanation could be that it's cheaper to show people driving than to have to hire a stable of hollywood horse wranglers and keep them around the set.
Mr Morden wrote: Yeah the new lot would have been more interesting if they had turned up to plunder those settlements weakened by the war between the Saviours and everyone else.
Lots of weird stuff - the Saviours seems to have unending supply of fighters all of whom are dicks - no exception.
They have been around for ages but apparently not come across Alexandria or this new lot - despite slaughtering other communities next door.
Given all the cool stuff they could be doing - the amount of filler in the show is really surprising.
If you want to go all Mad Max - then go for it - given that apparently every car still starts and has petrol in it - why not - have them rampaging about Mad Max/Vikings style and the only force than can stop them is the Saviours - so who does Rick and co side with then
Make it a bit more interesting guys.....
Ha, ya that drives me crazy. It's like Grand Theft TWD out there. Every car starts up just fine and has a full tank of gas - just press the Y button. Everyone just drives everywhere so I don't see the impetus of having to deal with evil empires like The Saviors Without Number. Just drive off - like Mad Max. Everyone should be talking a lot more about where to get the precious "juice".
I can't remember the last time anyone drove anywhere in the comic. It took them months to walk northwards though America. I don't know why the show feels the need to show people driving. It's not like the actors really need to walk the distance....just... act like you walked far.
As silly as it might seem, I can actually get behind the "driving everywhere" thing. FTWD showed that the initial containment efforts and panic ended up with massively congested roadways...and people bailing out of their cars to walk instead. You had some people refusing to get out of their cars or getting locked back in if they looked to be infected, with the people taking the keys away from those they thought to be infected.
Plus, at least this season, we know that the Saviors have been using cars as traps and ways of "herding" the walkers. They wouldn't be using cars low on gas for that kind of stuff, right?
Well its been two years or more since the outbreak, not sure that the petrol would be usable - apparently it would go off in a few months - maybe a year if you are lucky and few modern cars would be in fit state to drive after sitting unused . Most post Apcolypse stuff has the same thing to be fair and I enjoy them = its just quite amusing.
Given that cars are pretty much zombie proof in the WD - they are more useful as somewhere to sleep when traveling. Van etc being better as you can't be seen by walkers or people.
A fully nomadic group travelling through taking what they needed could have been quite fun - they might raid the weak and trade with the strong - viking style.
but hey Zombies donlt make sense but they are fun.
You know, I have changed my mind. With all the ridiculous stuff the show presents, they need to embrace the ridiculous. Why not have weird speaking emo-hoarders? The show drags when it tries to be super serious, so maybe going a bit gonzo is just what it needs. We have gas and cars, so we need more chainsaws and mohawks. More bizarre cargo cults, improvised weapons, and general insanity.
Think about how fun it would be if the survivors were a bunch of loonies who worship a pariah god lord instead of just jerks who follow a jerk. Same function, but more flavor.
It would play sort of like the Kingdom, but the leader actually believes his own act.
In that vein, I now support Lady Bangs and her helmet zombie.
I dunno about the gas. I'm no petroleum engineer, but I've heard of people starting cars that were parked a pretty long time. Certainly the gas can lose potency, get contaminated with water, or gum things up because of the additives. Running old gas would be bad for the car, but if we're talking about an apocalypse situation, then you just run it until the engine's borked.
Fuel stabilizer would also help if we're talking about gas that someone stockpiled when civilization fell. A car would *easily* run stabilized year-old gas from a good container. Two years seems like a definite maybe. Gas that's been sitting in abandoned cars for two years seems like a longer shot. Anyway...this will be addressed on the show in seasons to come.
Spoiler:
Actually, in the comics I don't understand why we haven't seen wood burning cars. They work, and they're not so complex that Eugene and company couldn't cobble some together.
gorgon wrote: I dunno about the gas. I'm no petroleum engineer, but I've heard of people starting cars that were parked a pretty long time. Certainly the gas can lose potency, get contaminated with water, or gum things up because of the additives. Running old gas would be bad for the car, but if we're talking about an apocalypse situation, then you just run it until the engine's borked.
Fuel stabilizer would also help if we're talking about gas that someone stockpiled when civilization fell. A car would *easily* run stabilized year-old gas from a good container. Two years seems like a definite maybe. Gas that's been sitting in abandoned cars for two years seems like a longer shot. Anyway...this will be addressed on the show in seasons to come.
Spoiler:
Actually, in the comics I don't understand why we haven't seen wood burning cars. They work, and they're not so complex that Eugene and company couldn't cobble some together.
The internet searches seem to suggest even with stabiliser a year is touch and go, without it - its months.
However I agree - its a Zombie show so lets go with it properly and have more madness - the WD does tend to have episodes that just drag - so lets get nuts
Started watching "In to the Badlands" - quite like the idea that the barons each have a resource that they have exclusively and the others need - helps a bit with the co dependency keeping the general peace. So one has fuel one has opium etc.
re the Eugene and cars in the comic book -
Spoiler:
well I guess they have to have a need for them that outstrips other work that he might be doing, they do already have alt methods of transport that work and the communities are quite close together so making workable cars is very resource intensive and running them worse and the gain is limited - boilers and the like are better used for heating, generating hot water for varied uses etc
Mr Morden wrote: The internet searches seem to suggest even with stabiliser a year is touch and go, without it - its months.
Nah, the dire warnings about gas that's a few months old are almost certainly assuming you care a lot about the engine in question. I've had old small engine equipment start and run after sitting idle for months and months. And if you search around car forums, you'll find people saying they started cars that sat for a year or two. Or more.
Now, it's not a good thing to do if you care about the engine. And some engines may be a lot more sensitive than others. But in a ZA situation, you just need something to run for a bit until it goes. I don't think they're *wildly* stretching the truth here if they're only 2 years out.
And as you said, it's a zombie show, with plenty of impossibilities and inconsistencies.
re the Eugene and cars in the comic book -
Spoiler:
well I guess they have to have a need for them that outstrips other work that he might be doing, they do already have alt methods of transport that work and the communities are quite close together so making workable cars is very resource intensive and running them worse and the gain is limited - boilers and the like are better used for heating, generating hot water for varied uses etc
Well, I'm not sure how much work is required to convert a car -- I'd guess an old model would be easier, but that stuff is above my pay grade. IIRC, the contestants on that old survival show 'The Colony' built a wood gas generator, and you'd think just that could also come in handy in TWD world. I don't think it's *that* hard with the right skillsets. Wood gas conversions were a thing during WWII.
The big problem for a sudden PA scenario in the US is that most people lack basic survival skills, much less the mechanical skills to do such complex conversions. And once you get past basic survival, you run into the whole problem of sustainability- going from a modern industrial food production model backwards isn't that easy. Crops and animals are pretty picky- farming and ranching are specialized knowledge. Even tougher with no access to medicine, running water, etc. Oh, and undead. It would be the starvation, lack of clean water, and infection that obliterate you, not the zombos.
But that is pretty boring and depressing, so let's whip out some chainsaw trucks covered in barbed wire!
The latest comic issue's letters page address this by saying that there's no plans to include any, and that all the fuel ran out during the time skip (plus horses are cool). The time skip's theorized to be 2 years, however its inferred by the writers in the letters as being possibly longer.
Well two years is on top of where the show is right now. They need to finish the Saviors arc then have the jump.
Whether or not the show bothers with that, or includes filler for it ...or even just goes straight to the Whisperers is up In the air. Given the changes it'd be preferable to have the time jump so all the infrastructure can get in place (and the fact that zombies, at least around the settlements are incredibly rare. However, re: the latest letters column, the cities are still packed full of them).
Spoiler:
Well, when I say settlements, that's till all the ones turned up at The Hilltop and Alexandria (the latter haven't been dealt with as of yet).
The Walking Dead doing a Crossed +100 thing would be pretty interesting (..or we could just have a Cross +100 show).
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, I think we're well past 2 years in the comics and the TV show by this point.
A side effect of the show making big time skips so the real world ageing of actors (i.e. Chandler Riggs/Carl) make sense. I doubt they've bothered to give much thought to it.
As Wyrmalla says, the comics make much more sense. Much less time has passed by the time they reach Washington, and they shifted to exclusively using horses after the time jump.
Wyrmalla wrote: Given the changes it'd be preferable to have the time jump so all the infrastructure can get in place (and the fact that zombies, at least around the settlements are incredibly rare. However, re: the latest letters column, the cities are still packed full of them).
From what I gather, it seems like the walkers are actively gathering in cities. I'm reading the latest WD novel Search and Destroy (follows Lilly Caul, the lady from Woodbury who turns on the Governor and takes over Woodbury after the battle at the prison). And there are huge hordes gathering in Atlanta...
Spoiler:
...as big as the horde that the Whisperers unleash on Alexandria.
Alpharius wrote: SCE - are The Walking Dead novels any good/worth the read?
The earlier ones are. I'd say the first 3 are essential reading for anyone that wants more on the backstory of Brian Blake (the Governor), Woodbury and Lilly Caul, the Woodbury resident who killed the Governor in the chaos of the Prison Battle and took over as the leader of Woodbury and its survivors. (her TV analogue being Lilly Chambler, the mother of the little girl and Tara's older sister, who bonked the Governor and later killed him and fed herself to walkers after her daughter died during the prison battle).
But the later books are falling into the same repetitive pattern every book. Town is attacked, most of the residents are killed, Lilly rallys the survivors, overcomes the threat to Woodbury and begins to rebuild and recruit new groups of residents. Ad nauseam. The town has been almost wiped out 3 times now, not including the conflict with Rick's group at the Prison.
A brief spoiler free synopsis of the first 3 books.
Spoiler:
It starts out from the Governor's POV, showing him trying to survive with his family and eventually going insane after arriving at Woodbury and losing his family. I don't know how much you know of the Comic Governor's backstory but theres a lot more to it than in the TV show.
Then you get Lilly's story before and during Woodbury in the early days of the apocalypse, losing her friends, arriving at Woodbury, and the whole series of events that lead to the Governor becoming a murderous dictator.
Then you see the assault on the Prison from Woodbury's perspective, the Governor's death at Lilly's hands, Lilly rallying and leading the survivors back to Woodbury and rebuilding the town in the aftermath.
So, definitely get Rise of the Governor, Road to Woodbury, Fall of the Governor (parts 1 & 2). You can skip the later books entirely (Descent, Invasion, Search and Destroy). They're all basically the same book.
Although, the latest book (S&D) seems to have broken the pattern at last. The town is destroyed yet again, but this time they actually leave Woodbury and Lilly goes back to the city Atlanta to rescue some kidnapped residents. And its actually impressive how well they were beginning to rebuild this time around...
Spoiler:
Seriously, they were able to repair a railroad linking numerous friendly settlements almost all the way back to Atlanta and got a steam engine running. Well until they crash it at least...
I never bothered with the books because they seem to focus on The Governor. I don't like The Governor and don't want to learn anymore about him....because he's a jerk.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I never bothered with the books because they seem to focus on The Governor. I don't like The Governor and don't want to learn anymore about him....because he's a jerk.
Well no gak. He's a villain, villains tend to be jerks. The books tell you how he became a jerk.
Only the first one is from his POV iirc. The retpst are from Lilly's POV.
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Mr Morden wrote: Thanks for the reviews - I enjoyed the first few and like Lily but that sounds disapointing :(
The books aren't particularly bad... They just repeat the same story over and over,with different variations.
Pretty solid episode this time around. Eugene was one of my least favorite characters, but this episode demonstrates that the boy has some practical survival skills. He is tricksy! Also, he showed a strong character streak by refusing the chips and not liking the girls being forced to be companions.
The Dwight bit was a bit weaker, especially since he basically set up a (relatively) innocent man to die horribly. And Negan was typical over the top, Mambo leaning Negan.
Negan was an idiot this episode. He just burned his only medical doctor. Sure Eugene is smart, but he's not that kind of doctor. Or a doctor at all, if he was lying about having PhDs.
I liked this episode but I don't get why Dwight framed the Doctor guy. Also, its one thing for Negan to be all evil and stuff but what he did to the doctor is just straight up stupid. I've never gotten the impression Negan was stupid in the show or comic until that happened.
The implications was that he had another doctor. I think he even said something about that specifically.
If nothing else, he could grab the Hilltop doc.
Plus, since infections from wounds (even gunshot wounds to the eye) don't seem to be a thing, who needs doctors? Except for plot things like pregnancy, of course.
He's just not believable 'as is' right now - and last night's episode didn't help.
Someone would have already gotten rid of him by this point!
Maybe. Maybe not. A lot of the Saviors seem to be buying what he's selling.
What's he selling? A strong yet "fair"-ish leader, who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty.
Look at it from the viewpoint of Negan. Sherry has already escaped twice. Once with Dwight and her sister(who Negan fancied), where she offered herself up as one of his wives to keep Dwight from being killed. Extenuating circumstances(read: the sister dying) caused Negan to go a bit "easy" on her.
Now? There's nothing to hold him back. Dwight's still "his"(for all he knows...), Sherry's sister is long since dead and to top it off?
She let Daryl out.
What MDG says is, at this moment, what the actor playing Dwight was saying on Talking Dead this week. He's playing a long game, prepping for Negan to get brought down.
Undermining position, forcing Neagan to be the author of his own downfall.
In the run up to the mid-season break, they spent some time showing that Neagan's position whilst strong, isn't unassailable within his own community.
Compare and contrast with Rick. Rick doesn't always get it right. Some could argue he never really gets it right. But he always does his best - and he seems to own his mistakes.
That to me makes him a better leader than one who hides behind extreme violence and a sea of goons.
jmurph wrote: The implications was that he had another doctor. I think he even said something about that specifically.
If nothing else, he could grab the Hilltop doc.
Plus, since infections from wounds (even gunshot wounds to the eye) don't seem to be a thing, who needs doctors? Except for plot things like pregnancy, of course.
Every other disease out there? Surgeries, accidents, every reason you normally need a doctor.
jmurph wrote: The implications was that he had another doctor. I think he even said something about that specifically.
If nothing else, he could grab the Hilltop doc.
Plus, since infections from wounds (even gunshot wounds to the eye) don't seem to be a thing, who needs doctors? Except for plot things like pregnancy, of course.
Every other disease out there? Surgeries, accidents, every reason you normally need a doctor.
Pretty sure his point was that we never see anything like that. We haven't seen a serious medical issue since the flu in season 4A. Rick had a rusty metal spike go straight through his hand a couple of weeks back, then slashed up his leg pretty bad, and he just walked it off. The only doctoring stuff we've really seen is Dwight getting a few stitches and Maggie's tedious pregnancy arc.
I would say that curing that mega-ultra-hyper-ludicrous-flu virus with antibiotics is one helluva piece of doctorin'.
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MarsNZ wrote: Pretty sure his point was that we never see anything like that. We haven't seen a serious medical issue since the flu in season 4A. Rick had a rusty metal spike go straight through his hand a couple of weeks back, then slashed up his leg pretty bad, and he just walked it off. The only doctoring stuff we've really seen is Dwight getting a few stitches and Maggie's tedious pregnancy arc.
You're going to laugh, but in a "realistic" post-apoc setting, even stuff like dental care would be important.
For the most part, medicine -- like most aspects of the zombie virus -- just gets the handwave treatment from Kirkman. We just need to know that there are doctors around who fix gak up. Kirkman is interested in telling stories about characters and not in turning it all into some kind of survival manual. Which I get.
Honestly, I'm glad they haven't gone over the top with medical stuff. They've dabbled with it. If they did more, we'd be watching a medical show.
Honestly, they've shown this version of Negan to solve the here and now problem, and not be a big picture thinker. And he rules through fear and instability. People are too afraid to cross him, thinking if they fail, they'll get themselves (or more likely someone they care about) killed. We're seeing it now because we're seeing into the community. If we just heard about it happening previously, it wouldn't have the same impact.
Also, people allow it because these people are one of two types; the type that LIKES hurting others and doesn't mind who says to do it, or they're the type who wouldn't survive this world without the guidance of somebody who commands authority; they NEED to be told what to do. But they're going to see a possibility where somebody who rules the way Negan does isn't the only way to live. And that's coming. And that's when he falls.
Well the in universe has doctors skilled in dealing with infections.
We have an in universe version of the CDC.
We had a flu epidemic that killed a whole lot of people post Z virus.
We have confirmed Z virus is in fact a virus so others exist.
Plus we have confirmed the group would have been much better off if Shane were in charge...
Then lets agree to disagree, we apparently watch two different shows.
gorgon wrote:I would say that curing that mega-ultra-hyper-ludicrous-flu virus with antibiotics is one helluva piece of doctorin'.
You're going to laugh, but in a "realistic" post-apoc setting, even stuff like dental care would be important.
Not sure why that would make me laugh? I don't really want to see Rick flossing regularly, but some of the injuries the characters sustain with almost no medial attention is pretty out there. Not sure why the counter to this argument is bascially "We don't want to watch post-apoc E.R." I'd rather see a bit of realism instead of Morgan and Carol endlessly switching roles every season while the writers figure out how to develop a character.
The counter is that we see it once in a while. We don't need to see it all the time. I'm not saying some of the episodes aren't slow; the midsession return has been wicked slow up until this recent one. But watching Rick floss or visit a dentist every other episode is gonna get real stale, real quick. We know they have doctors. They get shown occasionally and we've learned Negan doesn't care if doctors (and fat people) get snuffed out. We don't need to get beaten over the head with it. My counter was completely valid.
Really good epsiode - lots of good character stuff - so much better than the snore fest of last week. Good Negan stuff - even if killing a doc is foolish - guess they can just take the one from Hilltop though.
Jeesh Eugene just always lands on his feet whatever the circumstances (and whatever it costs others)
timetowaste85 wrote: The counter is that we see it once in a while. We don't need to see it all the time. I'm not saying some of the episodes aren't slow; the midsession return has been wicked slow up until this recent one. But watching Rick floss or visit a dentist every other episode is gonna get real stale, real quick. We know they have doctors. They get shown occasionally and we've learned Negan doesn't care if doctors (and fat people) get snuffed out. We don't need to get beaten over the head with it. My counter was completely valid.
I wouldn't be so sure. Judging by the promo, it looks like Rick and Michonne discover some sort of military or Federal site and find at least one firearm (that we see in the promo). My guess is this is the episode in which they finally find their stockpile of weapons to arm their new army.
So, it might be filler, but at least it'll finally get the ball rolling.
Oh please somebody kill that b**** Rosita already.
"I had a gun. I was going to use it to kill Negan. Eugene would still be here if I had. But I was stupid enough to listen to you [Gabriel]".
No, you fething idiot. Eugene is not here because you fething MISSED. And if you had killed or simply slightly grazed Negan, the entire population of Alexandria including Eugene would have been massacred on the spot by the vengeful and very heavily armed gang inside the walls.
Spoiler:
Just give her Holly's death from the comics. Let Negan kill her then use her walker corpse as a weapon. It'd be a fitting end for such an annoying character.
I really enjoyed that episode. I do agree with the desire to see Rosita die at this point. I'm going to be pissed when she lives and Sasha dies (because we know she has to since she's doing another show).
But the overall episode was great. It really highlighted what the actual threat of zombies is now for the current survivors (i.e. simply being stupid) but also showed how they react to recover from their own stupid. I really, really enjoyed the Rick and Michone based episode. Silly that the guns weren't enough so off to seaside we go...
It was a fun but yet another filler episode. Rick and Mich were good.
Scary when the priest actually makes sense for once.
And of course giving a bunch of wierd people who live in the dump 40 Assault rifles could not go wrong given that al they know about them is they like to chuck people into their zombie Gladiator pit.
I like Rosita and Sacha and having just caught up with Black Sails be sad if more female characters I like are killed off :(
Oh nearly forgot - how badly was that Deer inserted into the scene - visually and narratively.
Hulksmash wrote: I really enjoyed that episode. I do agree with the desire to see Rosita die at this point. I'm going to be pissed when she lives and Sasha dies (because we know she has to since she's doing another show).
Maybe. Maybe not.
People flipped out when Norman Reedus got that "Ride" show on AMC, saying that Daryl was going to die...
But the overall episode was great. It really highlighted what the actual threat of zombies is now for the current survivors (i.e. simply being stupid) but also showed how they react to recover from their own stupid. I really, really enjoyed the Rick and Michone based episode. Silly that the guns weren't enough so off to seaside we go...
I just enjoyed the sheer absurdity of the fight at the slide and Carnival Barker Rick.
There is a difference between Norman Reedus riding a motorcycle for 2 weeks, filming it, and chopping it up into episodes on the same network where his appearance is already apt for the show and a different network flagship show for their streaming service. I just don't see her sticking around.
And yes, the sheer silly of the slide/ferriswheel fight was great. Especially when he counts to see how many are left in such a relaxed and unhurried way.
I just like that it showed how instantly guys can think on their feet and how unhurried and relaxed they are compared to, for Rick anyway, earlier season. "Ok, barrier didn't hold them. Let's do this now. If we split they won't have enough weight for the barriers. Go."
I did seem oddly incongruous that the same Rick who could quickly assess the threat and act effectively could not figure out to just finish the zombies then shoot the deer as opposed to climbing up a rusty slide.
Also, apparently the Dump people only care about number of firearms and not kind. And the cat.
Rosita is a super annoying pain. Should have thrown her in the zombie gladiator pit.
jmurph wrote: I did seem oddly incongruous that the same Rick who could quickly assess the threat and act effectively could not figure out to just finish the zombies then shoot the deer as opposed to climbing up a rusty slide.
To be fair it wasn't a slide. It was the ferris wheel. Hence how he wound up outside the fencing. That said he figured he was safe and he owed Michone a deer after the one that Negan took so he was trying to pay her back. It actually says a lot about how comfortable they are when they know they can focus on things like that when they are surrounded by zombies. I thought it was actually well done.
The CGI of that deer was painfully bad. Wolverine Origins clawing the fire escape level bad.
Rosita...being known as "the hot one" for most of her beginning is definitely coming dangerously close to Andrea territory. Show Andrea, that is. Not comic Andrea.
Watched the first season and thought it was awful - no empathy for any of the characters, kept hoping Junkie O'Liability would go get himself scoffed off a Zombie, or otherwise meet an amusing fate.
Watched the first season and thought it was awful - no empathy for any of the characters, kept hoping Junkie O'Liability would go get himself scoffed off a Zombie, or otherwise meet an amusing fate.
I had exactly the same opinion -Walking Dead has its dips and low points but FTWD was just one long tedious low point full of annoying "characters" that made the zombies look sympathetic.
but apparently its still being made so some people must like it.
I think they squandered the actual fall opportunity but that it's actually gotten really good. There are still 1-2 characters that could get eaten today and I wouldn't care but it's mostly well done and feels more coherent than TWD did at the same point.
To be fair the first season was almost second season TWD bad. But it really got better in season 2.
Meh, I'd rate season 2 of FTWD over Season 1 and 2 of TWD. And over most of the beginning of this season. Probably other arcs of TWD too honestly. Outside of dumb mom (whose actions are actually totally inline with her character) there isn't a whole lot of idiocy. Most of them make normal human mistakes and learn from them. The sister and junkie brother being the best examples.
Yeah, I think they have more freedom to breathe with FTWD so they don't feel locked in to certain preposterous angles. It also isn't locked into a "this guy is the leader" mentality, which is nice.
Hulksmash: Yeah, the slide comment was a reference to the fact that the piece came out and became a slide. I don't know that I would agree that someone halfway competent would expect an unmaintained carnival ride to reliable support you while you climb above undead predators (that could have easily been dispatched fairly quickly had you simply not climbed up). Likewise, such a false sense of complacency seems ill matched for someone who has repeatedly seen people die to such stupidity and actively warned others to not get soft. Especially when he literally had no reason to not just finish the zombies and then shoot the deer after since shooting the deer before looked like it would just cause the zombies to chow down on the carcass.
Anyway, not a big deal, and I'm glad it worked for some people. Seemed like another Glennesque cheap play to me, even though counterproductive at this point since we know Rick can't die.
Hulksmash wrote: I think they squandered the actual fall opportunity but that it's actually gotten really good. There are still 1-2 characters that could get eaten today and I wouldn't care but it's mostly well done and feels more coherent than TWD did at the same point.
To be fair the first season was almost second season TWD bad. But it really got better in season 2.
Agree. The only difference is supposed to be that we get to see the end of the world and that's what you do with it? But it does get better.
Heh, so this episode was kind of a huge cluster. Pretty solid episode.
Richard continues to put others in danger for his plan, albeit it somewhat unintentionally this time. The Survivors continue to learn nothing from Bad Guy 101 and pull the shoot some random person instead of the offender. Carol impresses (?) by using an overly elaborate way to kill 5 zombies.
I was disappointed to see Morgan snap, though, and feel like they keep whipsawing the characters too much. I guess since Gabriel is Rick's new conscience, they don't need him for that role. If they can keep him as a focused violence type, it will be okay, I guess. I also wasn't sure what the point of with the whole "I think I just pissed myself" line- wouldn't they be kind of used to the tiger by now?
I do like Ezekiel's growing resentment of the Saviors as it shows some actual development. I wonder though, if it is believable that he would support war and the risks to his people after he found out that it was one of his crew that instigated the conflict. Especially when it seems like the Saviors believe everything is back to normal.
I think it's believable. His protoge is dead because of a random act by Saviors with no actual punishment being meted out. If that dude had put a bullet in the offenders head then I think Ezekiel wouldn't fight. But he didn't. And his other main adviser was shown to be willing to commit suicide to push the kingdom in the direction it needs to go. Add in Carol and Morgan both now pushing for violence and it's totally believable he'll fight. Remember all the escalation kept happening WHILE they were doing what they had agreed to. He didn't step out of line once and was extremely forgiving of issues and it still got his protege killed.
I enjoyed the episode. I think the Carol zombie killings were, while a bit silly, quasi sensible. Shows how she thinks and works smarter, not harder vs. how morgan did his killing at the end of the episode or Rick/Michone last week. I thought it was a bit f'd up for Morgan to unload his baggage on Carol and pull her down into his pit with him but if he's ready to fight he probably wants all the tools to do it. And he's probably the second most dangerous person on the show outside of Carol.
Hulksmash wrote: I think it's believable. His protoge is dead because of a random act by Saviors with no actual punishment being meted out. If that dude had put a bullet in the offenders head then I think Ezekiel wouldn't fight. But he didn't.
I kind of got the impression that the reason the Savior was told to start walking and leave the stick was because the leader was leaving him open to reprisals. Kind of a "We can write it off as he got ate by walkers" thing.
I enjoyed the episode. I think the Carol zombie killings were, while a bit silly, quasi sensible. Shows how she thinks and works smarter, not harder vs. how morgan did his killing at the end of the episode or Rick/Michone last week. I thought it was a bit f'd up for Morgan to unload his baggage on Carol and pull her down into his pit with him but if he's ready to fight he probably wants all the tools to do it. And he's probably the second most dangerous person on the show outside of Carol.
I actually got the impression that it was Morgan trying to come clean with Carol. He was, in his own f'd up way, trying to say goodbye to his closest(both physically and mentally) friend.
Yeah, that's what I got, too. At first, he wanted to stay out of it and not get between Daryl and her, but then he saw how deception can get people killed and so he came clean.
I also don't really get how picking up a sign is working smarter when she has any number of stabby things and 5 walkers shouldn't be a challenge to any of the main crew absent unusual circumstances (such as Rick's tumble).
Sitting in a tree is easier than dancing around 5 walkers and risking falling down or stupid accidents. It actually made sense to me. In the zombie apoc you don't take pointless risks. It also shows the difference between Carol and even other like Rick and Michonne. Carol would have cleared that entire park by herself and likely had zero oopsy moments.
Unless, of course, a branch gives out, your foot slips, etc. It's just another odd depiction, IMO. Especially when they had Rick fall in his climbing stunt last week and, to me illustrates the unevenness in messaging. Anyone can die at any time, but fortunately, no one ever gets infections, so using a rusted sign pole is just as good as using a weapon you know to be reliable because it will only be secondary characters who die unless it's the end of the season anyway. They keep wavering between trying to be "realistic" and just going with their own absurdity. Which, at this point, I would prefer. Just have her mow 'em down without breaking stride. She's a badass. Save the strategery stuff for when it matters/helps the story along.
Also, why aren't people going out wearing zombie gut ponchos by now? Maybe with a nice skull hat.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Im always uneasy by the ammount of rotting infected blood everyone gets covered in.... not even a rag covering your mouth? Cmon guys....
The joke is that in the comics one of the factions uses zombie blood as a weapon. If you can be infected from having the blood in your wound, then how come it doesn't also infect you through your pores, or be swallowing it?
Ah right, because it looks cool covering a guy in blood (looking at you Fear the Walking Dead).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I'm more baffled that a year or so in (quit's possibly longer), the Zombies are still around in large numbers.
I mean, that's just not how decomposition works!
I'm not quite sure how a human body can exist without any blood circulation, or in the case of a decapitated head, the inability to generate any energy to physically allow the brain to still function...
In this world you could stick a zombie's brain in a jar and it'd still be "alive", regardless of any input. If it weren't for the whole downfall of society thing, and ethics, there'd be a lot of opportunities for medical research right now.
Like all Zombie shows - how they work is narrative driven
Zombies make no sense unless you use magic or something similar like the T Virus and even then.....
Still I love Zombies
Hopefully the next WD epsiode will be worth watching as its getting terribly turgid (yet again. But I guess we are off to the seaside. Give us at least a Negan cameo to make it wtchable I hope.
Yeah, I don't know how geeks get so hung up on this or that detail of zombies, when there are 100 other things about them that make no sense.
Why can you shove small knives into their skulls like they're soft melons, and yet their jaws seem capable of biting through anything less than body armor? *shrug* Honestly, I think Kirkman has the right idea by NOT spelling out too much of the imaginary science at work, because zombies are ultimately an impossible, ridiculous concept.
You also see this same "accept 100 silly things, get hung up on 1" phenomenon at work in 40K fluff discussions, only there it gets a thousand times worse.
It bothered me much more when they cured the superflu at the prison with antibiotics. Because that was a less fantastical element and really should have adhered closer to real-world logic.
I think this was brought up before, but under normal circumstances how long would it take for a human body to be reduced to a skeleton? They've been going for a few years now, wouldn't the majority of the herds be nothing but bones by now assuming the biggest chunk of their population was from the initial outbreak?
We decided that we hate Rosita since she's so emo and dumb now and want her to die next, which means she'll survive and get to annoy us for many seasons to come. I'm guessing Sasha will die next, since she's gonna be on that new star trek show.
And what's with the junkyard people.. why do they talk so funny? Were they a cult that worshiped Yoda before the apocalypse?
IIRC the costume designers have said that they've actively tried to show an increased degradation of the zombies with each season (for instance there's one covered in moss with exposed bones at one point). We'll have to see how the carries through the time skip.
In the show though, zombies can be submerged in water for years and whilst they do deteriorate, they're still capable of moving (re: the one in the charity goods store's basement/ the one submerged in the river by the Governor's second hang out). They seem to be broken down by the elements, not actual decomposition.
Necros wrote: We decided that we hate Rosita since she's so emo and dumb now and want her to die next, which means she'll survive and get to annoy us for many seasons to come. I'm guessing Sasha will die next, since she's gonna be on that new star trek show.
Man, some of you guys really want Rosita's head on a stake. Poor girl.
Necros wrote: We decided that we hate Rosita since she's so emo and dumb now and want her to die next, which means she'll survive and get to annoy us for many seasons to come. I'm guessing Sasha will die next, since she's gonna be on that new star trek show.
Man, some of you guys really want Rosita's head on a stake. Poor girl.
Whats your wish list of Live or Die
Live Sasha
Rosita
Negan
Carl
Michonne
Daryl
Shiva
Carol
Necros wrote: We decided that we hate Rosita since she's so emo and dumb now and want her to die next, which means she'll survive and get to annoy us for many seasons to come. I'm guessing Sasha will die next, since she's gonna be on that new star trek show.
Man, some of you guys really want Rosita's head on a stake. Poor girl.
M. Morden is a big fan of the HAWT CHIX, so no, not everyone wants that!
And hey, last night's episode had HAWT CHIX and even a little NE(a)GEN too - so...
...yeah, not a very good episode.
The Eugene 'revelation' was not shocking.
At this point, I'm kind of glad that there's only 2 episodes left this season, even if it will just be this lurching buildup to TOTAL WAR for...next season.
Necros wrote: We decided that we hate Rosita since she's so emo and dumb now and want her to die next, which means she'll survive and get to annoy us for many seasons to come. I'm guessing Sasha will die next, since she's gonna be on that new star trek show.
Man, some of you guys really want Rosita's head on a stake. Poor girl.
M. Morden is a big fan of the HAWT CHIX, so no, not everyone wants that!
And hey, last night's episode had HAWT CHIX and even a little NE(a)GEN too - so...
...yeah, not a very good episode.
The Eugene 'revelation' was not shocking.
At this point, I'm kind of glad that there's only 2 episodes left this season, even if it will just be this lurching buildup to TOTAL WAR for...next season.
Necros wrote: We decided that we hate Rosita since she's so emo and dumb now and want her to die next, which means she'll survive and get to annoy us for many seasons to come. I'm guessing Sasha will die next, since she's gonna be on that new star trek show.
Man, some of you guys really want Rosita's head on a stake. Poor girl.
M. Morden is a big fan of the HAWT CHIX, so no, not everyone wants that!
And hey, last night's episode had HAWT CHIX and even a little NE(a)GEN too - so...
...yeah, not a very good episode.
The Eugene 'revelation' was not shocking.
At this point, I'm kind of glad that there's only 2 episodes left this season, even if it will just be this lurching buildup to TOTAL WAR for...next season.
I didn't hate the episode, it's just that most of this season has felt like filler episodes in an anime series.
Compel wrote: It got way, way, way better according to the significant majority of readers? :p
Sure, for readers with the attention span and reading ability of a 5th grader.
Game of Thrones (the show) is now Walking Dead (show) levels of bad.
Without going completely off topic I strongly dispute that as would many of those who have read the books and watch the show. I loved the first few books but as the series continued it seemed the author lost his way and began to spin out the books as much as possible, focus on so very many characters that were of dubious worth and whom often stalled the story progression. He delighted in long and tedious diversions from the main story, teasing reader that pivotal characters and story lines would intersect and advance and then made sure they didn't. The books increased massively in length but reduced proportionally in quality as the years went on.
I have no problem with book length - I read quickly and enjoy a good long tale - however trudging through the last two books was an effort because of the poor characterisation, constant addition of nothing characters and lack of plot progression.
In contrast the show has shown some focus and ability to advance the plot whilst still staying true to the original concept and themes. They have had misteps - Dorne - certainly but nothing compared to the truly awful last two books where pretty much nothing happened. In particular my fav character in the books and show - Dany:
Both show and books have a wonderful character that appeals to so many different people, but in the show they stay true to her character progression and development whereas in the books, GRM seems to be bored of her and wants to have some other Targaryians (who suddenly all appear) take over -consequently she transforms into a feeble puppet for whichever pretty boy is in her bed. The Merrem story arc is a million times better in the show than in the books and Dany behaves as the earlier books suggested given her previous experiences and trials.
ok back onto Walking Dead - It does seem like they will just spin it out until the end of the season and then have the war next season - I guess that's what you can do if you have little fear of being cancelled.
Seems like Eugene is the total dick I always thought he was.
I wondered if Sasha
Spoiler:
will be captured and then exchanged as one of the women was in the comics - I forget her name - it would also mean they could do the whole bit with Negan and the guy who tries to rape her - showing his somewhat twisted code
Yeah, definitely a filler episode. The "bonding" between the ladies was also laughably bad. My wife, who loves Hallmark movies, was rolling her eyes and commenting how lame it was.
Rosita's character has taken the spot of most annoying, but it may be temporary. I doubt it will be fatal.
Really, there was just a lot of predictable stuff- Saviors being jerks, taking the doctor (so now Mags has no baby doctor), Eugene reveling in his power and refusing to leave (shocker), etc. But not much actually happening.
I was really hoping they would at least get to the last settlement this episode, but my guess is they want to leave the season on a "cliffhanger" with the war starting. And by war, I, of course, mean slaughter of a bunch of no names and a few characters.
jmurph wrote: Yeah, definitely a filler episode. The "bonding" between the ladies was also laughably bad. My wife, who loves Hallmark movies, was rolling her eyes and commenting how lame it was.
.
Watching it with a friend and she said the same thing - how awful that bit was - just not well written and so loooooonnnng
jmurph wrote: Yeah, definitely a filler episode. The "bonding" between the ladies was also laughably bad. My wife, who loves Hallmark movies, was rolling her eyes and commenting how lame it was.
Rosita's character has taken the spot of most annoying, but it may be temporary. I doubt it will be fatal.
Really, there was just a lot of predictable stuff- Saviors being jerks, taking the doctor (so now Mags has no baby doctor), Eugene reveling in his power and refusing to leave (shocker), etc. But not much actually happening.
I was really hoping they would at least get to the last settlement this episode, but my guess is they want to leave the season on a "cliffhanger" with the war starting. And by war, I, of course, mean slaughter of a bunch of no names and a few characters.
I doubt the war will start this season. I see it ending with the duel speeches & declaration, kind of like the train car scene at terminus. so I'd expect a few more sluggish episodes.
Eugene is going to do what's best for Eugene, after seeing the doctor tossed in the fire, he's not going to do anything to antagonize Negan because he knows someone he loves or himself will die horribly.
Well, last night was predictable. Had to get there some time. Another slow filler.
Did anyone else notice how the angle of Negan trying to force Sasha (a strong woman) to join was eerily close to Rick's crew trying to force Oceanside (lead by a strong woman)? The whole "get on your knees" at the end also seemed rather Neganesque.
Also, Rick's plan was horribly dangerous (explosives tend to be very indiscriminate and shrapnel is a thing. A good blast will make wood chunks into lethal projectiles.) and without them caving inexplicably fast, should have spiraled into disaster. Also, leaving them without guns and giving the guns to some rather uncertain allies seems questionable. But because Rick is always right, it will work.
The zombies looked neat. Though, I wonder how crabs hadn't devoured them.
jmurph wrote: Well, last night was predictable. Had to get there some time. Another slow filler.
Did anyone else notice how the angle of Negan trying to force Sasha (a strong woman) to join was eerily close to Rick's crew trying to force Oceanside (lead by a strong woman)? The whole "get on your knees" at the end also seemed rather Neganesque.
Also, Rick's plan was horribly dangerous (explosives tend to be very indiscriminate and shrapnel is a thing. A good blast will make wood chunks into lethal projectiles.) and without them caving inexplicably fast, should have spiraled into disaster. Also, leaving them without guns and giving the guns to some rather uncertain allies seems questionable. But because Rick is always right, it will work.
The zombies looked neat. Though, I wonder how crabs hadn't devoured them.
Is thre much Negan fun this week -- if not likely skip it
I don't know about that episode. I think Rick & The Gang's actions in it were downright villainous but it's all tied up with a neat bow at the end because one of the characters thanks them for robbing them. Perhaps it would have been more compelling if their attack ended up killing some people and they had to live with that. Another in a long list of could-have-been-interesting moments but nothing can break away from the Rick is the good guy no matter what he does.
Yeah, the Rick is never wrong/always good guy schtick is getting very tiresome. At least they could have the self awareness to show some people having moral qualms and maybe add some depth (he who hunts monsters...), but nope.
When it comes to the Walking Dead, Game of Thrones and Supernatural type shows (ongoing arcs etc) I always find it's best to hold off judgement until one has the chance to properly bingewatch.
What feel like interminably dull episodes often contain gems of plot and nuance, which aren't fully appreciated until consumed in a oner.
It looks like they have a great makeup effects staff and terrible CGI staff. It's interesting because early on, when budgets were lower, they often played stingy with the zombies. Now, they have a big budget and are solid on standard effects, but use some really questionable CGI. Now, CGI is generally very expensive, which is why TV sci fi generally has pretty cut rate stuff. You can do a lot with standard effects, but it requires some pretty talented folks and usually time. Unfortunately, CGI makes it easier to throw some money at some subpar effects and call it a day. CGI abuse is very easy to do. At least they haven't gotten obnoxious with lens flares and motion blur, right?
Ok, we'll that was almost awesome but it doesn't make sense that the scavenger leader lady didn't just shoot Rick immediately when the gunfight breaks out. And as for the battle itself this is starting to remind me of those 'ole G.I Joe vs Cobra cartoon laser fights. Thousands of rounds being fired but no one important gets hit. Soon they'll be jumping out of vehicles before they explode.
Best fething episode of the Season. A lot of moments directly out of the comics. It was nice to see Negan in pee pee pants city for a change. Was that Negan squealing when Shiva attacked, or just the guy being eaten? Jesus, Maggie and the Hilltop coming the rescue. Michonne getting beat up in the tower, like Andrea. Undead Sasha attacking and triggering the battle, only in the Show they completely flipped it on Negan
Spoiler:
(Negan killed Holly in the comics, and sent her into Alexandria to bite Denise).
This almost redeemed the entire Season. I have a lot more hope for the next Season now.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Ok, we'll that was almost awesome but it doesn't make sense that the scavenger leader lady didn't just shoot Rick immediately when the gunfight breaks out.
Negan wanted Rick alive. Jadis was under orders to bring Rick to Negan.
Thousands of rounds being fired but no one important gets hit.
Rosita was hit in the firefight. And Jadis shot Rick to subdue him.
I watched it straight after the Black Sails series finale and found Walking Dead very poor in comparison. Ah well
Fair enough I tried Black Sails, but just couldn't quite get on with it. Shall give it another go.
Having never read the comics (I tend to stick with the one medium, then check out it's other incarnations after) there were some good twists for me. When the Scavengers do their thing, and in particular King Ezekeil's patented Kitteh Launcher (I found the bit where the Tiger was chewing on the bloke's head particularly gruesome).
It felt like a good resolution to Rick's trials during Season 7, without reducing the overall threat of Negan and the Negans - rather than bringing Negan down as many shows do to their central villain, they brought Alexandria up to their level. Both well armed. Both quite numerous. Both fairly driven - though in terms of drive, I think Negan is on the backfoot. His crew are the bullies, Alexandria, Hilltop and The Kingdom the bullied. And when the bullied stand up to their bully, things typically only go one way.
Really looking forward to Season 8 now. As for overall judgement of Season 7? Withholding until I can binge watch the entire season in one go. It's how I started watching TWD, so only seems fair.
I watched it straight after the Black Sails series finale and found Walking Dead very poor in comparison. Ah well
Fair enough I tried Black Sails, but just couldn't quite get on with it. Shall give it another go.
Having never read the comics (I tend to stick with the one medium, then check out it's other incarnations after) there were some good twists for me. When the Scavengers do their thing, and in particular King Ezekeil's patented Kitteh Launcher (I found the bit where the Tiger was chewing on the bloke's head particularly gruesome).
It felt like a good resolution to Rick's trials during Season 7, without reducing the overall threat of Negan and the Negans - rather than bringing Negan down as many shows do to their central villain, they brought Alexandria up to their level. Both well armed. Both quite numerous. Both fairly driven - though in terms of drive, I think Negan is on the backfoot. His crew are the bullies, Alexandria, Hilltop and The Kingdom the bullied. And when the bullied stand up to their bully, things typically only go one way.
Really looking forward to Season 8 now. As for overall judgement of Season 7? Withholding until I can binge watch the entire season in one go. It's how I started watching TWD, so only seems fair.
Everyone likes different things - I have got to the point where if I don't like a show - I bin it and WD has got to that point - sadly as I love the comics.
The Scavengers were just weird and why Rick thinks they are trustworthy enough to give them 40 Assault rifles and let them into Alexandria when he knows nothing about them apart from the fact that they live in a dump and like gladiatorial fights. Yeah he was desperate but what annoys me is that we spent the entire season just getting back to the point before Rick handed over his entire weapons dump, lots and lots of wasted time where (to me) they did not advance the plot or develop characters.
To me, Negan as depicted did not make much sense - he is great fun but should have bashed Rick and co's head in ages ago due to how much trouble they were - it was not worth it.
It was all just a bit 'meh' for me, but then again, that sums up pretty much the whole season for me. Some random annoyances:
Rick's willingness to hand over guns and ammo to a bunch of clearly deranged lunatics. Yes, some of it could be put down to desperation but still, it jibes a little with Rick's status as a tactician and planner. What Alexandria and Hilltop/Kingdom really needed was guns not people, IMO. A few people with guns can do a lot more damage than the show is willing to indicate.
Throughout the entire firefight, junkyard woman was pointing a gun at Rick and standing on an elevated platform and yet no-one took so much as a pot shot at her.
Despite spraying thousands of rounds on automatic, very few people are killed other than nameless 'redshirts'
Ezekiel and his stealth tiger sneaking up completely unnoticed to save Rick/Carl. Very deus ex machina.
Negan driving out in his truck, again being sprayed with hundreds of rounds, none of which penetrate the truck, burst a tyre, shatter windscreen, glass etc. Very 'A-Team' as was previously commented.
I concede the Sasha flashbacks served a purpose but it felt like filler to me.
Throughout all this gunfire, not a single walker appears? Was it their day off or something?
What annoys me the most is effectively, it has been a season of marking time as the plot is really no more advanced than it was at the start. We are in pretty much the same place as we were before at the start, minus a few characters. Not much has changed apart from a bunch of filler episodes.
I too enjoyed the Black Sails finale much more (Although, that too is not without issues).
Well we've already seen diminishing numbers of Walkers in the show - not only are their numbers ultimately finite, but a massive horde was dealt with last season, and the living are dyed-in-the-wool survivors perfectly capable of dealing with them.
We've seen Sanctuary's walker traps (where Rick and co pinched the explosives), so it seems systematic eradication of Walkers is well within the purview.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well we've already seen diminishing numbers of Walkers in the show - not only are their numbers ultimately finite, but a massive horde was dealt with last season, and the living are dyed-in-the-wool survivors perfectly capable of dealing with them.
We've seen Sanctuary's walker traps (where Rick and co pinched the explosives), so it seems systematic eradication of Walkers is well within the purview.
Haha, just wait till the next group of villains show up. Your jaw will hit the floor.
On that related note, anyone have any information or best guesstimates as to when the next Walking Dead comic compendium volume will be released? I have 1-3 so am waiting eagerly for volume 4.
And on the comic front - where can I safely read up to in the omnibi before I risk TV show spoilers?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I tend to stick to one medium for it's duration, then swtich to other incarnations, but it seems I can do a decent chunk of Walking Dead without getting spoilered.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And on the comic front - where can I safely read up to in the omnibi before I risk TV show spoilers?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I tend to stick to one medium for it's duration, then swtich to other incarnations, but it seems I can do a decent chunk of Walking Dead without getting spoilered.
As of this episode, the show has adapted all of Volume 19 "The March to War". You can read up to Issue 114 (final issue of Vol 19) without spoilers for future TV seasons.
filbert wrote: On that related note, anyone have any information or best guesstimates as to when the next Walking Dead comic compendium volume will be released? I have 1-3 so am waiting eagerly for volume 4.
I would also like an answer to this, but the third compendium is up to issue #144. I think we have another year or two to wait before it comes out.
filbert wrote: It was all just a bit 'meh' for me, but then again, that sums up pretty much the whole season for me. Some random annoyances:
Rick's willingness to hand over guns and ammo to a bunch of clearly deranged lunatics. Yes, some of it could be put down to desperation but still, it jibes a little with Rick's status as a tactician and planner. What Alexandria and Hilltop/Kingdom really needed was guns not people, IMO. A few people with guns can do a lot more damage than the show is willing to indicate.
Throughout the entire firefight, junkyard woman was pointing a gun at Rick and standing on an elevated platform and yet no-one took so much as a pot shot at her.
Despite spraying thousands of rounds on automatic, very few people are killed other than nameless 'redshirts'
Ezekiel and his stealth tiger sneaking up completely unnoticed to save Rick/Carl. Very deus ex machina.
Negan driving out in his truck, again being sprayed with hundreds of rounds, none of which penetrate the truck, burst a tyre, shatter windscreen, glass etc. Very 'A-Team' as was previously commented.
I concede the Sasha flashbacks served a purpose but it felt like filler to me.
Throughout all this gunfire, not a single walker appears? Was it their day off or something?
What annoys me the most is effectively, it has been a season of marking time as the plot is really no more advanced than it was at the start. We are in pretty much the same place as we were before at the start, minus a few characters. Not much has changed apart from a bunch of filler episodes.
I too enjoyed the Black Sails finale much more (Although, that too is not without issues).
Yes exactly. Let's take a moment to think about that stupid scene where when Rick was taken hostage by the scavengers and he's smiling. Seemed like a stupid reaction at the time...turns out it was stupid. I haven't been a fan of TV Rick since he spent a whole season after Lori died wandering around and hallucinating. I would not follow this guy unquestioningly, I don't think he's a very good leader.
Yeah the garbage cult was very WTF? from the beginning.
Negan does not behave in a remotely believable way and they bad about whipsawing him just like they do with Rick. He is also apparently one of the luckiest people on the show, being completely unharmed by Z-Sasha despite falling off the platform and Z-Sasha eating the guy who pulled her off, evading bullets, having a bulletproof truck, Dwight not just putting a bullet in his head as he fled, etc.
I liked the flying tiger eating faces. Ezekiel should have ridden it while using a chainsaw for the glory of the Kingdom. Let's do this for real!
I call bs. Not gonna happen, dragging the show out for so long will just bleed the show of viewers until the network pulls the plug without warning and without a satisfying conclusion. I'd prefer 8 or 9 Seasons with a satisfying conclusion that the writers intended and had ample time to plan for, than 15+ Seasons with an unsatisfying conclusion forced on the showrunners at short notice or no conclusion at all.
Yikes! I am really hoping they wrap it up in a few seasons. I am sure they hope they can milk it for 20, but it is struggling for content and has been dragging out storylines for a while. Since viewership is already in decline, the result seems inevitable.
There's still an awful lot they can do with it though.
The main problem at the moment is repetition. Rick's Group find Safe Haven. NOT AS SAFE AS THOUGHT! Runs! Rick's Group find Safe Haven. NOT AS SAFE AS THOUGHT! Runs!
What they need to start doing (and remember, I've not read the comics) is showing man coming back from the brink - we've seen tantalising hints of that so far what with The Kingdom, Hilltop etc beginning to work together.
The main problem at the moment is repetition. Rick's Group find Safe Haven. NOT AS SAFE AS THOUGHT! Runs! Rick's Group find Safe Haven. NOT AS SAFE AS THOUGHT! Runs!
What they need to start doing (and remember, I've not read the comics) is showing man coming back from the brink - we've seen tantalising hints of that so far what with The Kingdom, Hilltop etc beginning to work together.
Well, if they follow the books, which they mostly do...
Spoiler:
...that's exactly what will happen next.
Of course, there are still quite a few threats that will...threaten a large, established group of settlements too!
Carl, Enid, Judith and Maggie could stick around. Maybe Michonne. Rick and Daryl (Lincoln and Reedus) aren't exactly young guys anymore. The rest could keep aging over time. Personal opinion, anyway.
was when right before they called out Negan, didn’t someone just snipe th lookouts on the roof? Why didnt they just snipe Negan right there and be done with it?
Even though I watched S8 premiere, I lost focus ever since Glenn died in S7, the repetition, lack of content, remaining casts, and the direction going with the comics are the culprits for my lack of focus.
The killings of my favorite characters(Shane, Glenn, Beth, Tyrese), along with the remainning captivating characters(Carol, Daryl, Morgan) doesn't do enough for my attention. The new people from the kingdom, hilltop, don't captivate me.
It has come to a point where the Fear of the walking dead is more interesting. Alicia, Madison, Strand, Nick>Carol, Daryl, Morgan, in terms of getting my attention.
I do quite like where they're going with Madison. Seems like she's shaping up to be much more ruthless than Rick much earlier. Hopefully she'll become a villain on TWD.
On the interview show afterwards they said something about doing a crossover between the shows next year... but I dunno how that would work.. like isn't the original show a few years later than the new one?
So you can't really have Madison drive her water truck to Alexandria and ask if they have any heroin to trade for Nick's next fix. Unless it takes her 3 years to get there?
They'd do a time jump if they wanted a FTWD character to crossover in TWD.
But its not going to be a FTWD character, it'll be the other way round. Probably Abraham Ford, who came from Houston Texas I think, before his family died and he met up with Eugene who manipulated him into taking him to Washington.
Proctor asked Alicia to accompany him to Houston, before the whole Damn shootout. I think that was a hint as to where the show is going next. What survivors remain on FtWD will be heading north to Houston where they'll encounter Abraham however briefly.
was when right before they called out Negan, didn’t someone just snipe th lookouts on the roof? Why didnt they just snipe Negan right there and be done with it?
I thought the same thing. Not only then but
Spoiler:
At the end Negan was talking gak in that little trailer about poopy pants....why didnt the Priest just unload first instead of dialog?
finally got to watch the premiere last night and like a few others have said, how annoying is it to see everyone as a deadeye marksmen when shooting zombies in the head from yards away but give a guy a machine gun and they shoot like a stormtrooper busting through the door in a new hope...
its frustrating to watch sometimes but then my "we have to keep the story goingitude" kicks in and its watchable.
anyone think daryl will actually kill dwight or will he redeem himself enough?
Right now, he's not only got a cult of personality going on, but more numbers than you.
He's build himself up to be unassailable. Take him out, and you risk facing a crusade against you by his Lieutenants. Yes that'll likely fall apart eventually - shame you won't be around to enjoy that.
So what do you do? You make him bleed. Let his followers see he's merely mortal. Poke, prod and cajole him into ever rasher actions. Use his ego against him. Break his legend down, render him merely mortal. Take his power away.
As you take out his Lieutenants, he'll have to replace them. And each time, that person is going to be one step removed from the loyalty of their predecessor.
Strip it all away one stroke at a time. Bleed him white. That way, when he falls, there's nobody left believing in his cause and his method. That's how you achieve total victory.
Right now, he's not only got a cult of personality going on, but more numbers than you.
He's build himself up to be unassailable. Take him out, and you risk facing a crusade against you by his Lieutenants. Yes that'll likely fall apart eventually - shame you won't be around to enjoy that.
So what do you do? You make him bleed. Let his followers see he's merely mortal. Poke, prod and cajole him into ever rasher actions. Use his ego against him. Break his legend down, render him merely mortal. Take his power away.
As you take out his Lieutenants, he'll have to replace them. And each time, that person is going to be one step removed from the loyalty of their predecessor.
Strip it all away one stroke at a time. Bleed him white. That way, when he falls, there's nobody left believing in his cause and his method. That's how you achieve total victory.
Hit the nail on the head. Have you read the comics?
Rick needs to erode the will of the Saviours to fight first. Assassinating their leader when the Saviours as a group are still strong will only make Negan a martyr.
Haven't read a single comic of Walking Dead - was going to wait until the show is concluded.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's pretty simple to work out though. Every single one of Negan's people has been oppressed by him.
What he did to Abraham and Glenn? He's done to someone every single one of his now Droogs knew.
He broke their groups, added them to his own. They likely hate him no less than Rick and Co - they're just under his thumb. I mean, look at his punishments. Ironing peoples faces, randomly killing people. He needs his myth to maintain that.
Soon as you fracture his ego, you fracture his façade - with the best of luck, his people might even take him out, saving an awful lot of unnecessary bloodshed.
The collected edition of "Here's Negan!", the Negan prequel comic, was out this month. Might be a good idea to pick that up. Its fairly short, but runs through Negan before the outbreak, and up to forming the Saviours.
He's actually not a bad guy, he just gets fed up with people dying on him all the time.
[MOD EDIT - COMIC TALK, NOW IN SPOILER - Alpharius]
It's the choice the survivors face between what they had (Negan/Government. Holds the cards, claims their due, their due being whatever they decide it is), and a more cooperative liftstyle (Rick/Hilltop/The Kingdom)
Though I'm almost certainly reading too much subtext.
Wyrmalla wrote: The collected edition of "Here's Negan!", the Negan prequel comic, was out this month. Might be a good idea to pick that up. Its fairly short, but runs through Negan before the outbreak, and up to forming the Saviours.
He's actually not a bad guy, he just gets fed up with people dying on him all the time.
Gets fed up with people dying all the time, so he decides to start helping people to die faster.
Negan logic 101.
[MOD EDIT - COMIC TALK, NOW IN SPOILER - Alpharius]
Decent enough season opener but nothing mind blowing.
Liked that Negan didnt get to pull another wand wave when Gregory tried to rally "his troops" and that it looks for once that Negan is on the back foot.
Was unsure about Ricks flash forward scenes - seemed a bit filler-esque to me.
Im unsure how the show actually gets back on track though - the last two seasons have been fairly hit n miss. Maybe go back to good old fashioned character bonding. Havent seen a good scene with Rick/Daryl or say Maggie/anyone or Michone/anyone in yonks.
Wyrmalla wrote: The collected edition of "Here's Negan!", the Negan prequel comic, was out this month. Might be a good idea to pick that up. Its fairly short, but runs through Negan before the outbreak, and up to forming the Saviours.
He's actually not a bad guy, he just gets fed up with people dying on him all the time.
Gets fed up with people dying all the time, so he decides to start helping people to die faster.
Negan logic 101.
[MOD EDIT - COMIC TALK, NOW IN SPOILER - Alpharius]
Whaaa? There were no spoilers there, I'm just referring to Negan's long list of kills and overall propensity for violence.
Right now, he's not only got a cult of personality going on, but more numbers than you.
He's build himself up to be unassailable. Take him out, and you risk facing a crusade against you by his Lieutenants. Yes that'll likely fall apart eventually - shame you won't be around to enjoy that.
So what do you do? You make him bleed. Let his followers see he's merely mortal. Poke, prod and cajole him into ever rasher actions. Use his ego against him. Break his legend down, render him merely mortal. Take his power away.
As you take out his Lieutenants, he'll have to replace them. And each time, that person is going to be one step removed from the loyalty of their predecessor.
Strip it all away one stroke at a time. Bleed him white. That way, when he falls, there's nobody left believing in his cause and his method. That's how you achieve total victory.
Or you could just mow down Negan and half his lieutenants in one single action while they stand, barely armed and totally unprepared, right in front of you and your 30+ soldiers. Then simply retire and allow the remaining saviours to devour each other in the ensuing power vacuum. There's no way you can spin the scenario as it played out into a plausible one. Every time it's another "I'm going to kill you" from Rick, followed up by an unspoken "but not for another 10+ episodes". Negan is not unassailable. The survivors killed around 50 saviours and suffered minimal losses before they'd even met the real Negan, and the survivors can also confirm there is significant resistance to the tyranny of Negan from within his own organisation - Dwight is an outright rebel and Gavin seems more interested in self-preservation than maintaining Negan's cause. The saviours killed their own doctor, regularly wipe out their tributaries for minor infractions and now have lost all sources of materials. Their options for scavenging are limited by the fact the entire area is hostile to them, they have a significant population of lower class workers who have little to no experience in scavenging or fighting, and their home base is isolated and besieged.
The gun play in this show has become comical at best. Weapons rarely recoil. They are usually operated in full automatic in spite of the fact bullets haven't been mass produced anywhere on Earth for 3-4 years and most operators are slightly above a civilian level of training. On top of that, bullets are expended to break windows when simply throwing a few stones would achieve the same result. Need to light a fire? Why not waste some flares, I mean lighters and matches are surely a rarer commodity especially since you lost your last firestarting device, an RPG-7.
The show now seems completely beholden to the big 'banner' moments from the comics, and tries to portray them like they are in the comics, even when you see them in reality they often seem completely and utterly preposterous (even in a world filled with zombies). The comics had the scene of Negan and Rick 'facing off' and yelling stuff at each other, so they did it that way on the show, simple as that, even though it was completely and utterly stupid.
What I don't really understand, is there's no reason why you couldn't have done essentially the same scene but with Negan yelling out from inside his bunker the same way Rick and his crew were hiding behind their mobile walls. But they just don't seem to care. As long as the big comic beats are hit, then that's all that seems to matter.
Subject: Walking Dead TV Show **Spoilers** (comic talk only in spoiler tags)
I suppose if you've never read the comics, TV Negan *might* be...palatable?
But I don't really believe that.
He's not done well at all, and it is hard to believe that TV Negan would have lived as long as he apparently has in the setup he has.
The ultimate issue I have with TV Negan is that I don't see how this guy ends up...
Spoiler:
...listening to Rick about how a bonafide economy could be set up and wondering out loud if he's been going about it all wrong. TV Negan is more 'comic book villain' than the Negan actually in the comic books.
It's the choice the survivors face between what they had (Negan/Government. Holds the cards, claims their due, their due being whatever they decide it is), and a more cooperative liftstyle (Rick/Hilltop/The Kingdom)
Though I'm almost certainly reading too much subtext.
You're not wrong. Each major group they face reflects a different philosophy and survival approach. The Governor was basically a simple despot. Negan, on the other hand, represents a kind of feudalism. It isn't made as clear as it should be in the show, but the Saviors do provide security in exchange for their tribute.
Ultimately, the show isn't about the end of civilization, but the struggle to build a new one.
Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.
As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.
And while he is a tyrant he's also a mostly good tyrant. Follow the rules and you're protected. Break them and he breaks you. How many people in his community and out in the world are still alive because of him. Granted he's killed quite a few likely but reality is that he's still probably ahead of percentages. And after what we've seen of Gregory who do we really think was the one who started the issues between hilltop and the saviors? They probably were actually short on that shipment and paid the price for it. Then Gregory out of fear got Ricks group to fix the problem starting all of this. Issues with the Kingdom came about because one of his under bosses couldn't keep his people inline. If you actually step back for all of his crazy act Negan hasn't actually stepped out of line of his own rules. He's actually be restrained. But feudalism requires absolute authority to function, especially in the current environment, and that's what he goes for. Granted he probably could have solved the problem of the Kingdom if he had some sort of set up for basically communicating over his underbosses head on certain situations but then again, maybe not.
Also I can see him falling into the comic role fairly well.
Right now, he's not only got a cult of personality going on, but more numbers than you.
He's build himself up to be unassailable. Take him out, and you risk facing a crusade against you by his Lieutenants. Yes that'll likely fall apart eventually - shame you won't be around to enjoy that.
So what do you do? You make him bleed. Let his followers see he's merely mortal. Poke, prod and cajole him into ever rasher actions. Use his ego against him. Break his legend down, render him merely mortal. Take his power away.
As you take out his Lieutenants, he'll have to replace them. And each time, that person is going to be one step removed from the loyalty of their predecessor.
Strip it all away one stroke at a time. Bleed him white. That way, when he falls, there's nobody left believing in his cause and his method. That's how you achieve total victory.
Or you could just mow down Negan and half his lieutenants in one single action while they stand, barely armed and totally unprepared, right in front of you and your 30+ soldiers. Then simply retire and allow the remaining saviours to devour each other in the ensuing power vacuum. There's no way you can spin the scenario as it played out into a plausible one. Every time it's another "I'm going to kill you" from Rick, followed up by an unspoken "but not for another 10+ episodes". Negan is not unassailable. The survivors killed around 50 saviours and suffered minimal losses before they'd even met the real Negan, and the survivors can also confirm there is significant resistance to the tyranny of Negan from within his own organisation - Dwight is an outright rebel and Gavin seems more interested in self-preservation than maintaining Negan's cause. The saviours killed their own doctor, regularly wipe out their tributaries for minor infractions and now have lost all sources of materials. Their options for scavenging are limited by the fact the entire area is hostile to them, they have a significant population of lower class workers who have little to no experience in scavenging or fighting, and their home base is isolated and besieged.
The gun play in this show has become comical at best. Weapons rarely recoil. They are usually operated in full automatic in spite of the fact bullets haven't been mass produced anywhere on Earth for 3-4 years and most operators are slightly above a civilian level of training. On top of that, bullets are expended to break windows when simply throwing a few stones would achieve the same result. Need to light a fire? Why not waste some flares, I mean lighters and matches are surely a rarer commodity especially since you lost your last firestarting device, an RPG-7.
Thank you. You've stated my thoughts exactly. The zombies have become the most plausible part of the show now. The shootouts in the old G.I. Joe cartoons were more tense.
Hulksmash wrote: Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.
As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.
Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.
The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.
Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.
For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.
Hulksmash wrote: Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.
As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.
Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.
The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.
Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.
For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.
Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.
lets talk bullets... ive seen it mentioned a few times and funnily enough once by my wife who is gracious enough to watch the show with me while only being mildly interested in it but would there really be a shortage of bullets?
i'm of the opinion that with all of the bullets in the world wouldnt say one national guard armory support a band like ricks indefinitely?
couldnt they shoot full auto at will without putting a dent in the supply or is my image of what is out there overblown?
Hulksmash wrote: Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.
As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.
Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.
The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.
Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.
For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.
Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.
EXACTLY.
As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.
The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.
Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.
For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.
That, or (comic spoilers ahead)
Spoiler:
...Rick and Negan could skip the Machiavellian stuff and just slam their "armies" into one another until one is soundly defeated.
Kinda funny to read where people think this is going. There's really not a lot to All Out War other than...all out war.
Alpharius wrote: As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.
Although as I alluded to in my spoiler above, they're probably headed to the same endgame as in the comics. Which makes less sense with Negan as a cult leader than as a organized crime boss/businessman. But that's how the writers seem to do things these days...change the story from the comics while keeping certain beats and scenes, even if they don't make the most sense in the new context. The confrontation outside Sanctuary is a perfect example.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given what they're carrying, it doesn't seem unfeasible that they've got lots of rounds.
The last supply run I really remember for Rick and Michonne did clear out an army 'safe zone'.
Loads of Ready To Eat Meal things - and you can almost be certain a significant amount of ammo.
I thought I would give it a last chance with the new series.
It would work better if they had not given all their weapons and ammo to Negan and then spent many tedious episodes searching for every bullet and weapon they could get their hands on. Even then they gave a significant amount of the new assault rifles and ammo to the dumpster people - who have not shown up yet and may well be Negans ace in the hole.
Sadly the narrative for the last few seasons has been poor - I enjoy Negan on screen but he makes no sense. He is either too brutal or not brutal enough to be the kind of feudal warlord he is obviously emulating - he has bent over backwards repeatedly for Rick so as not to kill that character and its just silly. A cult of personality is going to work but not if he is repeatedly humiliated. As others have said - if things are going this badly - his cult falters and fails and then he dies.
In the episode if they had gunned down Negan - as Rick actually tried to do with his false count, the Saviours were finished. Especially if they had killed the other possible leaders at the same time - again there is an issue that there seems to be an infinite amount of Saviour goons for the tiny population of worked to be supporting - even with the tribute runs
When Negan is introduced in person he has lost 40-50 guys - in response they killed 2 - Glen and Abraham - in reality he would have killed everyone in the primary group - in front of the rest of those at Alexandra not just in the woods and then put a leader in charge with a - get on with it or suffer the same fate. Anyone argue at that point - kill 'em. The problem is that they have to keep Rick alive and that screws the story.
In terms of the episode itself - it was as bad as I expected - slow, sooooo very slow and without any tension - When the entire Ricks Combat Crew of about 30 people open up on Negan, Lieutenants and Eugene not a single one of them gets hit.- what a surprise - oh look the annoying priest might get killed - yawn oh he didn't. Oh look we are exchanging fire and no one dies. Yawn - oh look another bit with Carl that's dull. and so on.
It really feels like they spin out every single little aspect - what should take a few mins in the show might be dwelled on for multiple episodes and still not make a better story.
usernamesareannoying wrote: lets talk bullets... ive seen it mentioned a few times and funnily enough once by my wife who is gracious enough to watch the show with me while only being mildly interested in it but would there really be a shortage of bullets?
i'm of the opinion that with all of the bullets in the world wouldnt say one national guard armory support a band like ricks indefinitely?
couldnt they shoot full auto at will without putting a dent in the supply or is my image of what is out there overblown?
Society collapsed fairly quickly, so there will be lots of untapped armouries around the country. Plus gun stores. Weapons factories. And Eugene is now capable of manufacturing ammunition, and Alexandria possesses his plans and instructions on how to do so.
Hulksmash wrote: Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.
As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.
Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.
The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.
Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.
For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.
Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.
EXACTLY.
As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.
Yes, just to be different than the comic they've gone and made the whole storyline not make sense. In the comic Negan is basically Lawful Evil (as opposed to the Governor who is a chaotic evil madman). His true goal underneath is all is to rebuild society even though his methods are brutal. That's why he gives incredible amounts of leeway to Rick at every turn. Rick's a giant thorn in his side but Negan also recognizes the greatest organizing force outside himself he's ever seen. He wants Rick on his side. In fact he kind of thinks Rick already is and he just needs to make him realize it.
In the show what's Negan's motive here? Burning beds and the occasional doctor? He has none besides generic scenery chewing diabolical dialogue. That's why this whole thing has been a snooze fest fail.
Hulksmash wrote: Gorgon has the right of it. They're doing similar if not as overt things in FTWD as well.
As for show Negan I think he works fine. He's a cult leader that appears nearly invincible. Even shot his "I am Negan" thing would work for any of his lieutenants to step into his shoes. In essence he's also Rick from the beginning of Season 6. He's NEVER lost. He's ALWAYS two steps ahead. So he's cocky.
Not disagreeing with the snipped stuff, just wanted to pick up on this bit.
The whole 'I am Negan' is why Rick can't simply kill him.
Right now, Negan is an idea. Negan stands for a certain status quo.
For Rick to win, he needs to change that value. Make Negan as a brand worthless.
Red Herring. That might be the intention, but as it's portrayed, its a pure cult of personality. If Negan is gone, and certainly if his head goons are too, the game's over.
EXACTLY.
As portrayed on the TV series, Negan wouldn't work...or at least he wouldn't work for long.
Yes, just to be different than the comic they've gone and made the whole storyline not make sense. In the comic Negan is basically Lawful Evil (as opposed to the Governor who is a chaotic evil madman). His true goal underneath is all is to rebuild society even though his methods are brutal. That's why he gives incredible amounts of leeway to Rick at every turn. Rick's a giant thorn in his side but Negan also recognizes the greatest organizing force outside himself he's ever seen. He wants Rick on his side. In fact he kind of thinks Rick already is and he just needs to make him realize it.
In the show what's Negan's motive here? Burning beds and the occasional doctor? He has none besides generic scenery chewing diabolical dialogue. That's why this whole thing has been a snooze fest fail.
I disagree entirely. I think they've made it pretty obvious that Negan wants to rebuild a society that answers to him. He wants peoplease to work for him. And he recognizes the strength of Rick's group.
I think if you don't watch it a week between but actually together you see a lot more consistency in Negan. Even in the show Negan has subjegated or destroyed double digit communities. There is a method to what he does and how he goes about it. Then again I dont have comic Negan to compare him to as I'm not reading the comic at the moment.
Id agree there. Its pretty obvious just by looking at how harsh his punishments are for anything and in that respect his rewards too. The punishments are showing his total domination to not only the punishee but to the rest of his people. And his rewards are a bit heavy handed as well just to show you hes powerful enough to male whatever you want happen.
A somewhat meh second episode for me.
It felt a bit too try hard - "we promised you war - SO HERES A FULL BLOWN WAR!".
Agreed on whoever said earlier that the gunplay is ludicrous at this point.
And the cliff hanger, boy I hope they dont pull another Rick gets done over again. Been there, seen that.
I must have been groggy when I watched it. I'm not sure I really 'got' the episode. I mean, I watched it...I'm just not sure why it was structured that way. In particular, the Aaron raid just seemed like pointless gunplay filler. The Rick and Daryl raid also seemed pointless, other than that big reveal at the end that lacked drama, since Morales wasn't a character that anyone really ever cared about.
The Jesus 'no-we-can't-kill-them' narrative also felt like a very forced attempt at injecting some tension among the good guys and rehashing moral discussions these characters should have left behind seasons ago. And the artistic flourishes like the flash forwards and character closeups also feel forced.
Aaron raid - rather than risk lives by entering the compound and going room to room like Morgan and Jesus did, ambush them, kill a few in the alpha strike then keep them pinned down from behind cover until the dead ones came back and did the job for them (the realisation that lady in charge had shortly before getting chomped.)
Rick and Darryl - they'd been told the Saviour's big calibre weaponry was being stored there by Dwayne (is that his name? Melty face.) so went after it with a view to grabbing it and providing some fire support. Thus far this is the first bit of inside info they'd been fed that doesn't appear to have panned out, which may or not be significant.
Aaron raid - rather than risk lives by entering the compound and going room to room like Morgan and Jesus did, ambush them, kill a few in the alpha strike then keep them pinned down from behind cover until the dead ones came back and did the job for them (the realisation that lady in charge had shortly before getting chomped.)
Rick and Darryl - they'd been told the Saviour's big calibre weaponry was being stored there by Dwayne (is that his name? Melty face.) so went after it with a view to grabbing it and providing some fire support. Thus far this is the first bit of inside info they'd been fed that doesn't appear to have panned out, which may or not be significant.
I got the 'what' fine. They're picking off outposts and getting some work done while Sanctuary is pinned down. Coulda made that clearer for some folks, but I get that and what was going on in the story.
I just didn't get the 'why'. As in why they spend a whole episode on these stories. Rick and Daryl searching closet after closet...Aaron and the gang in a stationary shootout without any interesting dynamics...Ezekiel and Carol looking for a guy. Presumably this will all come together as part of Rick's grand plan. And I'm not allergic to openendedness (my fav show this year was Twin Peaks: The Return). But it all felt kinda repetitive, tired and pointless.
And regarding the flash forwards...I know what bearded Rick is all about. That's fine. But red and glassy-eyed shaky Rick? Can't we just be done with that guy? Can't Andrew Lincoln bring something else to the table?
I guess the writers are somewhat between a rock and a hard place, if they don't show these events on screen and just use an exposition device, people are going to complain they didn't see it, and maybe without them the events didn't carry enough impact, while other people are going to find them unnecessary filler that doesn't contribute anything to the overall narrative?
Evidently they felt the former group was larger than the latter and decided to play to them.
FWIW, I've found the whole affair underwhelming so far this season, it feels like we've had (barely) one episode of content stretched out over two episodes.
Im trying to enjoy this but the shooting mechanics so far are driving me friggin nuts! Everyone is an incredibly poor shot, even with rifles and even being what...20 yards away? They cant seem to really hit anything and that just baffles me!
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Even Chris Hardwick had to admit it was "Stormtrooper shooting".
I take it we missed the line from the Savior lady where she talked about how the other side didn't know how to shoot and "didn't have the balls" to push in?
And how after they got bottled up she finally realized why the Hilltop/Alexandrians weren't pushing forward?
It was actually far more realistic shooting than what usually takes place in the show. But watching characters miss with most of their rounds isn't terribly interesting either.
I wouldnt argue if these armies were completely unskilled and far away from one another. I actually dont mind the ones missing with pistols because pistols are not accurate for squat at distance. But the majority of these people are veterans of several altercations, or at least has had some form of training.
And most importantly the distance! They are shooting at one another in hallways and small parking lots FFS. Not to mention what you brought up as far as how unrealistic their accuracy is on say....zombies. BOOM! Headshot, with a suppressed pistol from 20 yards. Easy. Same distance with a rifle....forget it. Imperial Stormtropper
So ah, anyone confused about the latest issue of the comic? Youknow, the whole Jesus possibly being infected thing?
The Whisperers covered their weapons in zombie guts, which has been shown to turn someone before. Jesus took a cut to his arm, which is seen bleeding, from Beta's knife. Nobody addresses this in the issue, despite them presumably knowing the effects of the Whisperer's weapons (people mentioned it a few times in previous issues).
Just sort of weird it was glossed over.
Beta being a basket ball player explains his height at least.
So ah, anyone confused about the latest issue of the comic? Youknow, the whole Jesus possibly being infected thing?
The Whisperers covered their weapons in zombie guts, which has been shown to turn someone before. Jesus took a cut to his arm, which is seen bleeding, from Beta's knife. Nobody addresses this in the issue, despite them presumably knowing the effects of the Whisperer's weapons (people mentioned it a few times in previous issues).
Just sort of weird it was glossed over.
Beta being a basket ball player explains his height at least.
Comic talk:
Spoiler:
Not necessarily. Its a slow acting infection, could take several hours or a day before symptoms begin to exhibit. How much time passed from the time of the cut, to the end of the issue? Minutes? Hours?
What you perceive to be "glossing over" may prove to be a Chekov's Gun and central plot point for a future issue. If Jesus has been cut and infected, he might not be showing symptoms now but that could change in the next issue.
So ah, anyone confused about the latest issue of the comic? Youknow, the whole Jesus possibly being infected thing?
The Whisperers covered their weapons in zombie guts, which has been shown to turn someone before. Jesus took a cut to his arm, which is seen bleeding, from Beta's knife. Nobody addresses this in the issue, despite them presumably knowing the effects of the Whisperer's weapons (people mentioned it a few times in previous issues).
Just sort of weird it was glossed over.
Beta being a basket ball player explains his height at least.
Comic talk:
Spoiler:
Not necessarily. Its a slow acting infection, could take several hours or a day before symptoms begin to exhibit. How much time passed from the time of the cut, to the end of the issue? Minutes? Hours?
What you perceive to be "glossing over" may prove to be a Chekov's Gun and central plot point for a future issue. If Jesus has been cut and infected, he might not be showing symptoms now but that could change in the next issue.
Spoiler:
If he is infected, that neither he nor Aaron - who are aware what Whisperer's weapons do - not addressing it is so fething weird to me. Just saying. :(
Strange episode.
I liked the Jesus/Morgan interaction and possible dilemma at the Hilltop developing.
But Ricks piece and the Ezekiel preaching fights were not good.
Also what is Carl/army girl doing right now back at Alexandria? Mowing the lawn?
And are Gabby and Neegan still trapped inside a trailer full of zombies?
So ah, anyone confused about the latest issue of the comic? Youknow, the whole Jesus possibly being infected thing?
The Whisperers covered their weapons in zombie guts, which has been shown to turn someone before. Jesus took a cut to his arm, which is seen bleeding, from Beta's knife. Nobody addresses this in the issue, despite them presumably knowing the effects of the Whisperer's weapons (people mentioned it a few times in previous issues).
Just sort of weird it was glossed over.
Beta being a basket ball player explains his height at least.
Comic talk:
Spoiler:
Not necessarily. Its a slow acting infection, could take several hours or a day before symptoms begin to exhibit. How much time passed from the time of the cut, to the end of the issue? Minutes? Hours?
What you perceive to be "glossing over" may prove to be a Chekov's Gun and central plot point for a future issue. If Jesus has been cut and infected, he might not be showing symptoms now but that could change in the next issue.
Spoiler:
If he is infected, that neither he nor Aaron - who are aware what Whisperer's weapons do - not addressing it is so fething weird to me. Just saying. :(
Spoiler:
I don't think the Whisperer's poison their weapons. I certainly don't recall anyone in the comics being wounded and infected by the Whisperers.
That was actually a tactic used by the Saviours towards the end of All Out War.
I can't really stand this show anymore. It just feels like a complete cartoon at this point. Whatever realistic connection the world of the show had to the world I live in has just been completely eroded at this point.
I'm not the kind of person who normally nitpicks every scene and thinks 'that would never occur that way', but I just cannot help it anymore. Every scene in every episode it just a constant faceplam situation for me. I just do not understand the decisions the showrunners are making anymore. The overall plot is fine, but how the individual scenes are being set up, blocked and shot is just beyond frustrating.
What's even crazier to me is that, even though I don't read the comics, I always just assumed that the comics were setting up these scenes in unbelievable ways and the showrunners have just been following that lead (which I know they have been to a certain degree). However, I just read online a comparison between this episode and how it played out in the comic and was flabbergasted to see that the comic played it much, much more believable manner, which is an unforgivable sin as far as I'm concerned. The TV show should *always* be the more believable of the two versions.
The idea that two .50 cal guns could somehow kill every single Kingdom member in that party (besides the King, Jerry and Carol) before some of them could scatter into cover is simply ridiculous. And if those guns did manage to kill every single person they hit (instead of leaving many people wounded and dying), how weren't some of them already turned into walkers by the time the King woke up?
It just doesn't make any sense. Either the start of the episode is only a few seconds since the guns stopped firing, in which case there should be several wounded/dying Kingdom members moaning on the ground or the start o the episode is supposed to be several minutes since the guns stopped firing (which could allow for all the wounded Kingdom members to have bled out), in which case those Kingdom members which were killed instantly by the guns should be up and walking around as walkers by the time the King wakes up.
But of course all that is thrown out the window because they want the King to wake up to see the devastation that has been caused to his people *before* the danger he is in is revealed. And of course we have to ignore the fact that EVERY SINGLE Kingdom member that was killed was armed with an assault rifle, but suddenly the King can only find one nearby that is jammed? Stupid. Ridiculous.
And why does everyone in the show now fire continuously on full auto without ever reloading? Again, the gun combat all seems like a cartoon now. I'm smart enough to realize that the budget doesn't allow for the cars and stuff they hide behind as cover to take actual damage except in specific scenes they shoot...that's why most of the time you just see a stupid little digital 'BING' hitting cover most of the time and then in one random scene you finally see a bunch of actual bullet holes explode on the car...that's because they only have the budget to explode the squibs ONCE on the car. So they shoot most of the scenes with only cheap digital 'BINGS'. I get all that. I understand that's how TV production works. Yet, as a showrunner, if your whole season is centered around gun battles, you have to be aware of that fact and shoot the show to hide your limitations. Soooo many of the gun battle scenes in both this episode and the last few are shot from behind the person shooting, looking down the gun as they're firing (full auto, of course) and you see NO damage occurring at all at what they're shooting at, except for a few lame digital 'BINGS' here and there.
Why are they shooting it this way? All you have to do to get around this is to always choose shots where you're looking directly at the person firing (so you can't actually see what they're shooting at) and then as a reaction, you cut to a shot where the person being shot AT is ducking down behind the cover, and you throw little bits of glass and debris over the top of the cover they're hiding at so it gives the feeling like the cover they're behind is actually taking damage. THEN you use your one 'money' shot where you see all the squibs going off doing damage to the cover. That way it ALWAYS feels like all the shots people are firing are dangerous/actually doing something.
I just also don't understand why everyone is constantly firing on full auto like they've suddenly got unlimited ammunition. Its ridiculous and unneeded. They've already stretched credibility to a breaking point with gasoline still existing this far into the apocalypse, but just a few seasons ago there was talk about how useful Eugene would be in order to produce more ammunition, but now every episode people are firing off thousands of rounds like there is some endless supply.
I just don't get it, especially after seeing how it played out in the comics.
Spoiler:
Where the King, and many of the Kingdom members much more 'realistically' manage to run away from the ambush.
Why couldn't there have been a few more Kingdom members who managed to avoid the ambush show up at the end to return with the King/Jerry/Carol? That way the whole thing wouldn't have felt so stupid?
I mean, the show has always made it feel like there's very few able bodied men in these communities besides the main characters until there is some kind of conflict, at which point dozens of 'red shirts' suddenly appear, but then they have to go and have an ambush kill EVERYONE for no apparent reason? And I'm sure down the road should the Kingdom survive this, we'll magically have some more Kingdom redshirt dudes appear back again to fight in some other battle, despite the fact that they were completely obliterated in this episode.
And don't even get me started on:
1) random lone 'evil guy' who shows up out of nowhere to capture the King. Why was he there at all? Why was he by himself?
2) Jerry appearing out of nowhere with no talk about where he went or why it took him so long to get back to the King.
3) Carol perfectly killing all the dudes with a single clip when firing through a ceiling panel (when she just have easily could have been hiding in a corner, popped up and killed them all before they got a shot off).
4) The dude in the back of the truck somehow un-crating and setting up a .50 cal gun by himself in the back of a truck.
5) A .50 cal somehow not able to hit a jeep driving directly behind the truck its firing from, and then when it does hit the jeep not completely tearing it apart (again, cheap ass budget ruining things).
Just all so dumb. It continues to make sense to me why their ratings keep plummeting and I see no end of that in sight.
Good points MarsNZ and Yakface. I actually think this was one of the better episodes storylinewise. I actually felt for Ezekiel but the way they do gunplay in this show: They are some of the worst in the business. I think it's because this started as a horror/psychological thriller show and now they are doing a full blown war show and they don't know what they're doing. Show has been so successful no one's bothered to mention it's stupid now. Zombies still look fantastic....Rick's deflector shield jeep...not so much.
Not really, for the same reason I didn't really care for any other individual kingdomers. We never really got to know anything about Shiva other than her being so incredibly expensive to put on screen that we ended up with continuity errors like the glaring one this week. One second Shiva is here, the next she's vanished.
whew... you would think a popular show like this would have someone who knows what they are doing involved in filming all these gun battles...
They are really cheaping out, the CGI added muzzle flashes are not well done, many guns have the ejector port closed, NONE are cycling or ejecting rounds, several semi autos have mini gun cyclic rates expending thousands of rounds missing after only moments ago carol hits every shot on 5 guys though a roof... basically one step up from pointing guns and going PEWPEWPEW, really disjointing and rough to the point where some of us just cant shut down the brain enough like others might be able to.
The car chase scene was just brutally forced... rick wins because hes rick... they approached the saviours in the worst way and win through dumb luck/plot magic....
I can't really stand this show anymore. It just feels like a complete cartoon at this point. Whatever realistic connection the world of the show had to the world I live in has just been completely eroded at this point.
I realise nitpicking is half the fun (hell, half the point!) of watching tv today, but it's a zombie show, man. It takes itself a little seriously, but at the end of the day, it's meant to be a cartoon! Remember comedy walkers climbing fences back in s01e01?
I can't really stand this show anymore. It just feels like a complete cartoon at this point. Whatever realistic connection the world of the show had to the world I live in has just been completely eroded at this point.
I realise nitpicking is half the fun (hell, half the point!) of watching tv today, but it's a zombie show, man. It takes itself a little seriously, but at the end of the day, it's meant to be a cartoon! Remember comedy walkers climbing fences back in s01e01?
The show has never been marketed as a comedy so trying to deflect valid criticism by saying "it's just a joke man" doesn't fly.
We're talking about a long running TV series about Zombies.
Zombies that somehow haven't long since been picked clean by bugs and maggots and that. Zombies where their eyes haven't completely dessicated in a matter of weeks, nor their brains decayed away completely months, if not years later.
Zombies.
And you're complaining about realism?
You may way to check out Band of Brothers and similar shows. There's a place for realism, and it's not Zombies.
I can't really stand this show anymore. It just feels like a complete cartoon at this point. Whatever realistic connection the world of the show had to the world I live in has just been completely eroded at this point.
I realise nitpicking is half the fun (hell, half the point!) of watching tv today, but it's a zombie show, man. It takes itself a little seriously, but at the end of the day, it's meant to be a cartoon! Remember comedy walkers climbing fences back in s01e01?
The show has never been marketed as a comedy so trying to deflect valid criticism by saying "it's just a joke man" doesn't fly.
Doesn't need to fly - it didn't say it was a comedy. When I said 'comedy walkers climbing fences' I didn't mean the show was a comedy, I was drawing attention to the fact it has had cartoonish elements from the start. Silliness has always been part of the show. Whether it's walkers clambering over fences, Butterbean getting pulled in half in a well, or slapstick firearms use.
It's not even that there's been a descent into inconsistent depictions of the effectiveness of firearms or a sudden lack of tactical nous - guns have always been exactly as powerful as the plot demands, and users have always bounced between Hawkeye and Stormtrooper depending on the immediate importance of the target; and pretty much everything bad that's happened in the last 7 seasons could have been solved had someone thought to just stay inside the house on the farm.
The lack of realism (even within a show about the undead) is a perfectly fair criticism of the show, but it's a strange one to be making if you've watched 7+ seasons.
And everyone seems to regularly forget the 'cover yourself in Walker Guts' trick. How easy would it have been for the main three protagonists of last night's episode to do that and get safely out of dodge?
As a Jeep lover, I am glad one show finally got it right! Jeeps truly are bulletproof. Look at how many 50 cal shots it took just to get the radiator to leak a little. You should buy one, so you can survive the zombie apocalypse.
Genuinely struggling at this point with the show. Another pretty woeful episode.
Its actually starting to remind my of Darker Skies - cheesy, silly in many places, poor dialogue (well poorer than usual) and no investment left.
And they couldnt even give Shiva an epic death.....
No we are complaining about sloppy production, poor execution of scenes, and a lack of continuity. Hand waiving away critiques as appeals to realism is as lazy as not spending 5$ to put banks in your prop guns.
There is a pretty big difference between a well made fight/car chase/shoot out scene and a poorly made one. You just dont feel as entertained by people pointing their fingers going "pewpewpew" as you do with people who act the part properly, and have prop-guns that properly simulate guns.
When watching a show about car chases, if we saw the driver constantly shift into reverse while driving forwards, it doesnt matter if its some zombie car chase movie, thats bad production value. Jon wick is not a realistic movie either, but it suspends your disbelief enough to make it a ride worth taking, they put a lot of effort into making an unbelievable thing, believable. Seems like that effort is just not there in TWD.
For a multi million dollar show its really quite sad at this point, especially since the issues are getting worse, not better.
Zombies that somehow haven't long since been picked clean by bugs and maggots and that. Zombies where their eyes haven't completely dessicated in a matter of weeks, nor their brains decayed away completely months, if not years later.
Zombies.
And you're complaining about realism?
You may way to check out Band of Brothers and similar shows. There's a place for realism, and it's not Zombies.
So would you be ok with Gandalf flying in on on a unicorn and destroying the Saviours with a lightsabre? I mean if realism is of absolutely no concern at all...
Also I think you miss the entire point of the show if you thinks it's "a show about zombies". The titular walking dead actually refer to the human survivors.
Necros wrote: As a Jeep lover, I am glad one show finally got it right! Jeeps truly are bulletproof. Look at how many 50 cal shots it took just to get the radiator to leak a little. You should buy one, so you can survive the zombie apocalypse.
Ratius wrote: Genuinely struggling at this point with the show. Another pretty woeful episode.
Its actually starting to remind my of Darker Skies - cheesy, silly in many places, poor dialogue (well poorer than usual) and no investment left.
And they couldnt even give Shiva an epic death.....
I tend to agree. I lost interest during the episode, which would have been an unthinkable thing in earlier seasons. There are many bigger issues with the show than the specifics of the gun battles. It feels more and more like a typical network program, and less and less like 'prestige TV'.
More enjoyable episode this week I felt. And Im not sure why Thought the dialogue between Gabby and Negan was quite weak overall but Negans moment of breakdown was actually very well done. Boy did they need a bit more of that.
Also enjoyed the bickering/politic of the Saviours without Negan - was a nice contrast and angle.
Definitely the best episode this season, so far! Cemented the fact that my wife likes Negan and his views more than Rick’s (minus the whole graphic head smashing bits).
Yep, a much better episode. I'd point to the relative lack of shooting as a plus, nothing of late suspends my disbelief as much as the awful fighting scenes this season.
Also nice to get an inside look into the Saviours for a change rather than rehashing the same tired storylines with the same tired characters - eg: Today Morgan is a killer and Carol is a pacifist, next week they will switch roles. See also: Rick/Daryl, Jesus/Tara etc. Tune in next week to find out which characters the writers use to create the exact same dichotomy!
What I wonder about is the scene where Negan questions Simons loyalty and infers there was an issue with this in the past. Simon shows no physical evidence of any 'corrective actions' such as Dwight (scalding iron to the face) or Michelle (amputated finger). Was his correction a psychological one, did Negan punish someone close to Simon for this breach, or is this just an oversight?
The chopper seems to be another of the 1st season easter eggs the writers have been cramming in wherever they can. "Choke hold's illegal" was predictable as hell, you might have heard my eyes rolling back when we saw `the helicopter only Rick can see` again.
Id love for this show to go back to the days of when the Zombies were terrifying and a credible threat. They literally just shove the walkers out of the way now.
KingCracker wrote: Id love for this show to go back to the days of when the Zombies were terrifying and a credible threat. They literally just shove the walkers out of the way now.
Its true to the source material. Survivors have learned how to handle Walkers, and Walker-related deaths are very rare now.
I managed to begin watching the latest season. After the first few episodes my thoughts are: For the love of god why can't anyone in this show shoot straight? People are within metres of each other, firing full auto, and still missing... Not to mention that nobody reloads (I counted just how many shots Eric was firing out of that AK...).
...And where is everyone finding automatic weapons in the Northern USA? Did a gunrunner die or something? M16s fine, but where are all the imported automatic AKs coming from? Apparently there must be a gunsmith who died just before the show takes place who was just churning out those conversions. I half expected to that Ruger Mini Maggie was carrying to open up like a machine gun when it appeared, though that's seemingly one of the only semi-auto weapons which exists in this world.
Other than that I'm still watching this show, but yeah I'll feed into the echo chamber of criticising the lazy writing. If anything I still keep at it for the set pieces, and interesting things they can do with the zombie genre. I'm concerned about the longevity though if they're already hinting at the time skip even though All Out War's just started (the governor had a few seasons to himself).
I watch it purely because I'm a fan of the Comics, and as crap as the writing is on the show sometimes, I'm still excited to see some of the big set piece moments from the comics played out on screen.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I watch it purely because I'm a fan of the Comics, and as crap as the writing is on the show sometimes, I'm still excited to see some of the big set piece moments from the comics played out on screen.
TWD is the only I still read atm.
Speaking of the comic:
Spoiler:
how does Negan and the gang escape the zombie siege they're in right now? I can't remember.
And Rick got tricked by the Trash People again? Damn it Rick, you had one job!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I watch it purely because I'm a fan of the Comics, and as crap as the writing is on the show sometimes, I'm still excited to see some of the big set piece moments from the comics played out on screen.
TWD is the only I still read atm.
Speaking of the comic:
Spoiler:
how does Negan and the gang escape the zombie siege they're in right now? I can't remember.
Spoiler:
Exactly the same way that the Residents of Alexandria fended off the massive herd that broke down their wall in No Way Out. Teamwork and efficient, hand to hand melee combat.
Rick underestimated just how well organised and well lead the Saviours are. Negan is a very effective leader in his own twisted way.
The Trash People Arc is just filler. No direct analogue exists for them in the comics.
So much filler. I appreciate the late attempts to flesh Negan out a bit, but it's all so ridiculous at this point that I don't know if it really matters. I find myself hoping they wind this up soon. Between the boomerang character mentalities, the ridiculous dialogue and horribad fight scenes, the show seems to have run its course. Also, the radioactive waste zombies killing the tiger was super dumb when contrasted with unarmed survivors killing zombies with thumbs....
jmurph wrote: So much filler. I appreciate the late attempts to flesh Negan out a bit, but it's all so ridiculous at this point that I don't know if it really matters. I find myself hoping they wind this up soon. Between the boomerang character mentalities, the ridiculous dialogue and horribad fight scenes, the show seems to have run its course. Also, the radioactive waste zombies killing the tiger was super dumb when contrasted with unarmed survivors killing zombies with thumbs....
Thats how it went down in the comics. Can't really blame the show for that one.
I'd read it in the comics, but that was it for me for the TV show I'm afraid. Had set that as the benchmark when it first appeared. Happy to see people eaten in slow-mo, heads bashed in, Rick staring crazily into the camera for the 117th time at the point of losing it, but I set the tiger dying as the point at which I'll stop watching.
Really mean it. In the same way it would have been unacceptable for Jonesy to be killed in Alien, the show has crossed the final line!
* It was rubbish in the comics as well, I don't think served any purpose at all (even in context of what happened afterwards, I won't post here but readers of the comic will know) - there would have been better ways of handling that, I got the impression the artist had just grown bored with drawing big cats..
jmurph wrote: So much filler. I appreciate the late attempts to flesh Negan out a bit, but it's all so ridiculous at this point that I don't know if it really matters. I find myself hoping they wind this up soon. Between the boomerang character mentalities, the ridiculous dialogue and horribad fight scenes, the show seems to have run its course. Also, the radioactive waste zombies killing the tiger was super dumb when contrasted with unarmed survivors killing zombies with thumbs....
Thats how it went down in the comics. Can't really blame the show for that one.
Actually, when it is dumb in the comic and then still dumb in the show?
You can blame the show for that.
I'm sure that they liked to no longer have to pay for TIGER CGI though.
jmurph wrote: So much filler. I appreciate the late attempts to flesh Negan out a bit, but it's all so ridiculous at this point that I don't know if it really matters. I find myself hoping they wind this up soon. Between the boomerang character mentalities, the ridiculous dialogue and horribad fight scenes, the show seems to have run its course. Also, the radioactive waste zombies killing the tiger was super dumb when contrasted with unarmed survivors killing zombies with thumbs....
Thats how it went down in the comics. Can't really blame the show for that one.
Actually, when it is dumb in the comic and then still dumb in the show?
You can blame the show for that.
I'm sure that they liked to no longer have to pay for TIGER CGI though.
Heh, that's exactly what my wife and I said. Budget savings!
It does seem odd that tthey are maintaining missteps from the comic and then adding brand new ones. Would fans have been upset if they had the tiger going down saving her master from a sniper/ambush, for example? Bonus points if she hung on long enough to maul the attacker!
I'll never forgive this show for what it did to Eugene. It's like the showrunners said 'looks like Eugene's a fan favorite in the comics. Let's make him the opposite of that." A big Feth You to the comic fans.
Why did Ricko look so shocked at the end? Was it because Daryl et al disobeyed him and ravaged the saviour camp when he had a different plan for it? Or did I miss someat?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I'll never forgive this show for what it did to Eugene. It's like the showrunners said 'looks like Eugene's a fan favorite in the comics. Let's make him the opposite of that." A big Feth You to the comic fans.
I don't see it as an FU so much as a sadly-too-typical example of the show's approach to characters. It's like most never really grow. Eugene started as a craven coward and there he shall remain. Unless, of course, he flip-flops in some big dramatic out-of-nowhere 'TV' moment that's never suggested to be coming or possible based on what we see of the character's actions.
Can't wait for weepy-eyed Rick to make his reappearance.
Edit: I am still hoping that the show will improve with the next chapter, however. A lot of comics readers weren't happy about the All Out War storyline in the first place, and I think the writers/directors/budget/etc. aren't best suited for the action focus and scope.
I remember when they had the 100th episode party interview thing after the premiere, and kept saying stuff like "Yay let's make 100 more!" .. I think that's where we're headed this season.
The trash people are an utter joke, and now that they've been made a fairly large part of the show, the fact that nobody on the show has brought up the ridiculous way they talk and discussed it is honestly more unbelievable than the idea of zombies walking around.
It was a terrible decision to have them talk that way in the first place, but that they haven't walked back on it and revealed it was all some act (like Ezekiel) or at least had somebody call them out on it is just plain stupid.
The trash people are an utter joke, and now that they've been made a fairly large part of the show, the fact that nobody on the show has brought up the ridiculous way they talk and discussed it is honestly more unbelievable than the idea of zombies walking around.
It was a terrible decision to have them talk that way in the first place, but that they haven't walked back on it and revealed it was all some act (like Ezekiel) or at least had somebody call them out on it is just plain stupid.
This actually doesn't bother me much at all. Cults of personality are a thing. Feeling like belonging are a thing. If this group has been growing based on selection from the early days around a a slightly autistic personality it's totally believable to me. Also I kinda feel they reverse call them out. Like when head trash lady tells her people Rick talks to much. It reinforces their personality as a group and strengthens the US vs. Them mentality.
I mean imagine how a group of people led by Eugene would likely have sounded if he only responded when they talked like he did.
Why did Ricko look so shocked at the end? Was it because Daryl et al disobeyed him and ravaged the saviour camp when he had a different plan for it? Or did I miss someat?
Me confused.
Its because the Sanctuary is abandoned, and he fears that the survivors have escaped. He knows that the first place Negan will go is Alexandria, where his partner and son are living.
He was also trying to force a surrender, and had no desire to massacre the Saviours especially not the workers, so he was horrified at the prospect that innocent people (the workers) might have been killed.
The trash people are an utter joke, and now that they've been made a fairly large part of the show, the fact that nobody on the show has brought up the ridiculous way they talk and discussed it is honestly more unbelievable than the idea of zombies walking around.
It was a terrible decision to have them talk that way in the first place, but that they haven't walked back on it and revealed it was all some act (like Ezekiel) or at least had somebody call them out on it is just plain stupid.
This actually doesn't bother me much at all. Cults of personality are a thing. Feeling like belonging are a thing. If this group has been growing based on selection from the early days around a a slightly autistic personality it's totally believable to me. Also I kinda feel they reverse call them out. Like when head trash lady tells her people Rick talks to much. It reinforces their personality as a group and strengthens the US vs. Them mentality.
I mean imagine how a group of people led by Eugene would likely have sounded if he only responded when they talked like he did.
Well that was a monumentally stupid decision, to kill off a character who still has such a huge role to play in the comics.
Spoiler:
Who are they going to replace Carl with? Who's going to absorb his character Arc now? Enid?
Carl had so much potential for growth, and I had hopes that Carl/Chandler Riggs would be groomed to become the replacement Protagonist in both the Comics and the Show for when Rick Grimes is finally killed off.
Another week, and they once again spun the random wheel of character behavior. Almost nothing about this season makes consistent sense. I think they purposely obscure how long this attack on the Saviors took with disorienting timelines because it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. They surround the Sanctuary with Walkers, then successfully wipe out a huge portion of the Saviors manpower by killing everyone at their outposts and then...they all go back to their homes to chill for a while and wait for the Saviors to run out of food and water, leaving only 3 snipers to keep an eye on things?
And what is/was the point of having 3 snipers watching the Sanctuary if there wasn't some way to relay information that their siege was failing? Why wouldn't they have people posted at regular intervals to pass messages back and forth from the Sanctuary to each community so that they would be ready if something was going wrong? This just feels like the plan a bad guy has in a movie where he has captured the hero and has set in motion a plan to kill him, but then decides to leave the room for some ridiculous reason.
And why in gods name would all the people in the Hilltop caravan, each of which is armed and has seen action, sit idly in their cars allowing the Savior caravan to simply drive up behind them, get out of their cars and get the drop on them? What the heck was that? I understand that they weren't expecting the Saviors to be out of the Sanctuary, but as soon as they see the log in the road, why wouldn't they either try to turn their cars around to escape, or exit their cars and take up defensive positions in the treeline? They certainly couldn't/shouldn't have expected any kind of mercy from the Saviors after what they had done, so it should have been a life or death decision to fight for survival. Instead, its like the characters instinctively knew that the Saviors would magically give them a free pass to go back home...which is just terrible, sloppy writing. And the Saviors would take the guns of all the Hilltop caravan, but not travel back with them to the Hilltop to make sure there were no more guns (and to reassert control)? I mean, WTF?
And are you telling me Rick's whole ploy to recruit the trash people was completely meaningless, AGAIN? Or is later in the season the character behavior wheel suddenly going to spin again and the trash people will magically grow balls and save the day out of the blue (that's my bet)? Which of course will be incredibly stupid and out of character if it does happen.
And finally, I absolutely cannot stand the self importance that this show keeps trying to heap upon itself with things like the montage of character faces set to music, or the repeated heroic speeches that have been uttered over and over again this season. None of this has earned emotion behind it because they chopped the story up to try to be cute/clever so its hard for the audience to even know when something is taking place in the present or the past. Hell, in this episode when everyone was walking around town chatting to each other I thought for sure we had to be back in time before the whole siege of the Sanctuary started, because it made no sense for everyone to just be chilling in the middle of the Siege when they knew at any time the Saviors could figure out a way to escape and come attack them.
Overall, it was just another terrible episode in a terrible season. I forsee the ratings continuing to plummet.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well that was a monumentally stupid decision, to kill off a character who still has such a huge role to play in the comics.
Spoiler:
Who are they going to replace Carl with? Who's going to absorb his character Arc now? Enid?
Carl had so much potential for growth, and I had hopes that Carl/Chandler Riggs would be groomed to become the replacement Protagonist in both the Comics and the Show for when Rick Grimes is finally killed off.
I think its just the reality of the actor needing/wanting to go to college that caused this, rather than them wanting to do something crazy or shock the audience.
I think its just the reality of the actor needing/wanting to go to college that caused this, rather than them wanting to do something crazy or shock the audience.
Then they should have simply recast the Character, like Game of Thrones does almost every Season. Carl Grimes is too central to The Walking Dead, and there are no other characters that can realistically absorb his future character arcs.
Enid? She's already taken on Sophia's character arc.
Theres literally only one other teenage character that I know of, but he's a literal nobody (the teenage boy in The Kingdom training to be another Morgan acolyte whom Carol catches in the woods and scolds).
Deleting Carl Grimes from TWD is going to have massive and long lasting knock on effects.
Means I can finally start reading them without fear of spoiler cross pollination!
The TV show breaks from the comics all the time - go ahead and jump in!
But keep in mind, the comic drags on almost as badly as the show too - it is getting close to the time when both should wrap up pretty soon.
No, the comics just need a paradigm shift. Which it looks like this New World Order arc might do - pitting Rick's 4 Settlement Society against an equally large, powerful and well equipped Society.
Means I can finally start reading them without fear of spoiler cross pollination!
The TV show breaks from the comics all the time - go ahead and jump in!
But keep in mind, the comic drags on almost as badly as the show too - it is getting close to the time when both should wrap up pretty soon.
No, the comics just need a paradigm shift. Which it looks like this New World Order arc might do - pitting Rick's 4 Settlement Society against an equally large, powerful and well equipped Society.
Dammit Coral! That's the first episode I can recall where he was anything other than an irritation, distraction or liability and it's essentially his last one.
Still, now we have a reason for snotty nosed Rick in a few months.
This means at least another half season of Snot Nose Broken Rick!!!
On the other hand maybe it'll bring back Berzerker Rick on the Warpath. Remember when Rick went HAM in the Prison after Lori died, when the Claimers tried to rape Carl, and when he broke out of Terminus?
Yeah, I dunno. Really not sure what to say about a lot of stuff. It almost feels like they're making it up from episode to episode, which of course is impossible.
And finally, I absolutely cannot stand the self importance that this show keeps trying to heap upon itself with things like the montage of character faces set to music, or the repeated heroic speeches that have been uttered over and over again this season.
The closeups feel like a directorial flourish to add some window dressing to what's otherwise been a disappointing season on multiple levels.
Regarding Carl, I can only assume that the story will be fairly different from here on out. He's most probably the most important character in the next arc in the comics. The showrunners may have felt that the actor wasn't strong enough to carry that load, and they could even be right about that. Still, my hopes of the show improving in the next arc have just taken a hit.
Necros wrote: I still enjoy watching the show, but it feels like the whole thing has turned into
1. Drag it out forever because paycheck
2. Insert twist for interweb gossips
3. ?????
4. Profit!
It's been very manipulative and formulaic for a couple seasons now, yeah. I'm going to guess that when the show hit a certain ratings level, the expectations and demands changed for the showrunners. To be fair, it would be daunting to have to keep some fairly disparate audiences (those in it for the characters or *certain* characters, those in it for zombie gore, those in it for tactical zombie battles, etc.) fully engaged in perpetuity. And now they're pulling out every TV cliche and formula that they can to try to maintain ratings. They even introduced *another* baby, fer crissakes.
Could A Very Special Episode of The Walking Dead be in our future? Maybe Daryl on a motorcycle jumping over 100 zombies? I don't think I'm even completely kidding about the last one.
Of course, what's actually happened is that audiences are leaving and not staying, as they see TWD becoming a strangely conventional show that feels less like 'prestige television' all the time. It's a shame.
Outside of Carol and Maggie Carl was the last person I saw regularly developing and growing. It's frustrating they killed him off. More so because unlike so many other characters that I liked that died (Abraham, Shane, Glenn, Beth, Sasha) his story feels incomplete.
I've been fairly supportive of the show this season even though it's the first season we haven't watched on Sunday night or Monday morning but even I got annoyed at the road ambush of the hilltop and the non-explanation of how Jerry was caught from the car that got smashed but not Rick or Carol both of whom on foot made it back to their settlements while gak was going down.
Honestly I'm afraid for Fear now which was going in an excellent direction after a slow season one and half second season.
Hulksmash wrote: Outside of Carol and Maggie Carl was the last person I saw regularly developing and growing. It's frustrating they killed him off. More so because unlike so many other characters that I liked that died (Abraham, Shane, Glenn, Beth, Sasha) his story feels incomplete.
It's a curious decision. Especially if you know comes next. I'm just gonna assume that there's another factor/reason at work here involving the writers and actor.
I've been fairly supportive of the show this season even though it's the first season we haven't watched on Sunday night or Monday morning but even I got annoyed at the road ambush of the hilltop and the non-explanation of how Jerry was caught from the car that got smashed but not Rick or Carol both of whom on foot made it back to their settlements while gak was going down.
Honestly I'm afraid for Fear now which was going in an excellent direction after a slow season one and half second season.
I believe it's a different set of showrunners, so no worries. And yeah, Fear has found its footing and is the more interesting show IMO. I think the simple difference right now is that the writers on Fear are telling their story and serving their characters, whereas on TWD those now seem secondary to moments and speeches and shockers. (Oh my.)
Killing of carl is a huge mistake. The problem the show really has for me is there isn't any of the original characters left that I care about. Hell how many people from season one are left at this point, 3?
It feels like his death is nothing but an attempt at shock value. If this season ends with negan caving ricks head in with lucille i doubt think I'd care anymore.
I believe it's a different set of showrunners, so no worries. And yeah, Fear has found its footing and is the more interesting show IMO. I think the simple difference right now is that the writers on Fear are telling their story and serving their characters, whereas on TWD those now seem secondary to moments and speeches and shockers. (Oh my.)
Actually Gimple is taking over FTWD too which is why I'm getting concerned. Though maybe it'll go back to season 4.5-6 since it won't have the expectations that TWD has. We'll see I suppose.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tamereth wrote: Killing of carl is a huge mistake. The problem the show really has for me is there isn't any of the original characters left that I care about. Hell how many people from season one are left at this point, 3?
It feels like his death is nothing but an attempt at shock value. If this season ends with negan caving ricks head in with lucille i doubt think I'd care anymore.
Rick, Morgan, Carol and Daryl from season 1. Maggie from season 2. And I don't think we have anyone else from earlier than 4 at this point actually.
I believe it's a different set of showrunners, so no worries. And yeah, Fear has found its footing and is the more interesting show IMO. I think the simple difference right now is that the writers on Fear are telling their story and serving their characters, whereas on TWD those now seem secondary to moments and speeches and shockers. (Oh my.)
Actually Gimple is taking over FTWD too which is why I'm getting concerned. Though maybe it'll go back to season 4.5-6 since it won't have the expectations that TWD has. We'll see I suppose.
WHAT?!? I didn't know that. Oh boy.
Gimple did a good job on TWD early on...but something definitely changed there.
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Tamereth wrote: Killing of carl is a huge mistake. The problem the show really has for me is there isn't any of the original characters left that I care about. Hell how many people from season one are left at this point, 3?
It feels like his death is nothing but an attempt at shock value. If this season ends with negan caving ricks head in with lucille i doubt think I'd care anymore.
Rick, Morgan, Carol and Daryl from season 1. Maggie from season 2. And I don't think we have anyone else from earlier than 4 at this point actually.
Maggie might be my all-around favorite character left at this point. The actress does a good job with her, and it's one of the few TV characters that actually feels like its comics counterpart. Not that it actually matters, but it's familiar and reassuring somehow.
So what's the over-under on number of episodes we'll have to watch glassy-eyed, shaky Rick after the break? Two?
Totally agree with Yak's assessment. Except for Corral, of course. That was just shock value to try to prime a sputtering pump.
The whole trash people episode was astoundingly bad- they just repeated Rick's initial run in with less payoff. So bad.
At this point, I wish they would just ditch the script, have Rick go chainsaw crazy and burn it all down- starting with the trash people (Those giant walls of garbage don't seem like such a great idea now do they? *maniacal laughter*) and ending with a brutal murder of Negan with Lucille (Who's Negan now?).. Everyone starts dressing in the Kingdom armor, but adds a bunch of nails and sawblades. Instead, we will probably get weepy Rick back.
*jumps into thread. Oh Carl's dead apparently. Dah feth?*
Guess time to watch that episode...
I'm confused. What was the point in all that setup with the girl from Alexandria for? I thought she was supposed to be an analogy for Sophia in the comics seeing as they killed her off? Without Carl then what's the point in her?
Spoiler:
As in bang goes the whole Whisperer subplot with the daughter and Carl getting off together as Sophia feels jealous. Oh wait, that was gak. OK, maybe killing the kid was a good idea.
I guess this covers not having to put Carl on stilts or something for the time skip. Though he has already aged those 5 years (or however many the show wants to do. Rick's beard was pretty grey...).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and in case you wondered where the comics are going.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Seems like they're following up on saying its coming to an end. Hopefully. Please.
Wyrmalla wrote: I'm confused. What was the point in all that setup with the girl from Alexandria for? I thought she was supposed to be an analogy for Sophia in the comics seeing as they killed her off? Without Carl then what's the point in her?
Spoiler:
As in bang goes the whole Whisperer subplot with the daughter and Carl getting off together as Sophia feels jealous. Oh wait, that was gak. OK, maybe killing the kid was a good idea.
Yeah, in the comics so much of what comes next goes through Carl. I suppose they could flip things around and give that material to Enid, but I'm not sure that actress is any better than Chandler Riggs in terms of ability to carry the show. And no one is attached to that character anyway.
Like I said, I had hope that the next phase would see the show improve, just because I think the source material is more character-driven than All Out War. Clearly the creative team has struggled to stage larger-scale action or juggle multiple action storylines while providing clarity as to where the characters are and when. Indeed, their entire structure to this season seems like a very poor decision.
But now I'm a little concerned that characters and storytelling will continue to take a back seat to big speeches and 'TV moments'. Maybe TWD and GoT are intersecting after all.
Thought I was drunk watching that last episode and had fallen in/out of scenes.
So many wtf moments?
Rick and Carol escape the ramming ambush but others dont.
Maggies convoy happily sits there waiting to be surrounded?
They are then let go without any real loses to go back to "farming"?
Grenade launchers blow apart entire houses/churches?
Rick makes it back on foot as a one man army?
Ezekiel sets of an explosion and the entire saviours crew run after it. Carol then shows up as another lone warrior.
Negans crew despite randsacking the town earlier never noticed the underground sewer network?
They reintroduce the trash people (again) who promptly do another exit left of screen job.
Oceanside is coming back? What on Earth for?
A genuine lowpoint for me in the entire series. So hard to keep watching at the moment :(
Ratius wrote: Thought I was drunk watching that last episode and had fallen in/out of scenes.
So many wtf moments? ...
Maggies convoy happily sits there waiting to be surrounded?
...
My take was that they thought there were gunmen waiting in the trees ready to shoot anyone who exited their vehicles.
There's just so much...laziness?...involved with the storytelling now. It's like they can't be bothered to show you the where, when, or why of scenes. I can't believe how far the show has fallen.
On the subject of Carl, I've read some chatter that Chandler Riggs may simply have been a budget cut. They axed him 2 weeks before his 18th birthday...perhaps there was something contractual at work?
And you know...budget trouble is a believable issue based on what I saw this past half-season. Some of the lameness could have its roots in a lack of lira. It's not like it'd be the first time TWD had budget drama.
I can't remember how the plot went in the comics, but the ending of this episode seems to be taken from the Woodbury novels? The residents escape into the tunnel system beneath the town at least once in those. The way that the tunnels are lit up in the show seems to infer that Siddiq's been converting them into a place to live (as did the characters from the book) and I think Carl says the same.
I think, as yeah damn the acting in that was ...woo. Carl's a pivotal character in the comics, though, yup, I'm fine seeing that actor go.
Spoiler:
I'm assuming we're getting the dead Andrea arc early with Carl. Queue Rick sleeping on his grave. ...Well once they get out of the tunnels. If this is anything like the books expect 2 seasons down there.
Though on that note. I feel like they killed Andrea in the comics due to her death in the show. With Carl dead now in the show I wonder how that'll effect his character. Though post- Whisperers he's not had a major impact on the plot - and well TBH his involvement then was convincing the Whisperer girl to say. With the latest arc involving the government I can see him fading a bit into obscurity/ being a backup character to Maggie at the Hilltop.
Did Tattoo Neck Saviour Woman die in this episode or escape? I kind of lost track of what was happening.
Spoiler:
Seeing as there's a peace with the Saviours coming I wouldn't mind seeing a few of the Saviours surviving to interact with the rest of the communities. I mean they'd still be dicks, but Tattoo Neck - Laura! - , GTA guy and the Kingdom supervisor are fun to watch. It'd be a pity if they died in some stupid manner or another - looking at you Saviour lady who lets herself get eaten by a ressed Saviour during that one gun fitght.
Nobody said "I believe in Rick Grimes" this episode, so I'll take that as a net positive.
Finally brought myself to watch this show, it just takes a lot of effort now especially for the extra long episodes. Don't even feel the need to chime in as yakface and ratius have it covered. I will just add that this was downright the most incoherent episode they've ever aired. Like I don't even know what's going on or where people are. Especially those damn trash people.
It's been so bad I even find myself in agreement with Alpharius most of the time so to even that out I must go record saying I totally disagree with him about the comic. It's still good and I enjoy it.
Yeah, that was a disjointed mess. I think laziness is the key word- there is no attempt to build any kind of coherency in time or location, which doesn't require a big budget, just some planning. Likewise, characters continue to behave fairly incomprehensibly (why are the trash people even here at this point?). And then randomly kill Carl because, well, why not? Doesn't really add anything to anything, and flies in the face of his previous preposterous survival, but at this point it just seems like a "meh". Ratius nailed it- so much WTF?
So, we're two weeks out from the show resuming, and it seems we're in for a decent episode to re-open things.
And the spoiler-free review on DoG got me thinking....just what is it that I feel has gone wrong? And I think I can put my finger on it....
When it first started, the show was pretty fearless when it came to character casualties, and largely steered away from Deus Ex survival. But as well as being brave enough to kill off the cast, they were smart enough to make us give a hoot first.
Since then? Well, the 'safe/not/run/safe/not/run' formula aside, I feel that the character deaths are starting to spin into Ensign Redshirt territory - largely ancillary people that they never bothered letting us get to know to the point where their snuffing it has much of an impact.
Yes, there are exceptions (not gonna list, as that's personal taste), but there's too many that've popped up in say, Season 5, Episode 7, disappear until Season 6, Episode 14, only to have a dramatic death.
Perhaps that's partially inevitable given the core cast has remained largely constant for 8 seasons now. But I can't help but feel the 'emotion and filler' stuff could've played out much better if we saw Rick and Michonne take out Redshirts, A, G, and M for a bit of bonding, instead of leaving all their eggs at home.
Part of that is that their rope has been tied to the graphic novel, so they are limited to a degree if they want to keep the same arcs.
But the bigger issue is that the writing has been sloppy for a while. Whipsaw personalities, baffling behavior that seems out of character, huge plot holes and logical inconsistencies all add up. At this point the seem to be relying on some pretty coarse gotcha strategies to try to keep their numbers up, writing be damned.
Really, this show is low on steam and probably needs to just wrap it up. Of course as long as they can squeeze money out of it.....
jmurph wrote: Part of that is that their rope has been tied to the graphic novel, so they are limited to a degree if they want to keep the same arcs.
But the bigger issue is that the writing has been sloppy for a while. Whipsaw personalities, baffling behavior that seems out of character, huge plot holes and logical inconsistencies all add up. At this point the seem to be relying on some pretty coarse gotcha strategies to try to keep their numbers up, writing be damned.
Really, this show is low on steam and probably needs to just wrap it up. Of course as long as they can squeeze money out of it.....
See, I had some hope that the show would find its character-driven mojo again in the next arc. TWD -- comic and show -- isn't really about "All Out War". Even in the book, that run wasn't loved by everyone. And it's clear that the show didn't have the budget or chops to pull it off in that medium. The next arc could let the writers settle back into a comfort zone (at least for the larger part of it).
But with Carl's death, I'm not certain if they'll follow the book's path at all now. If not, it's too bad, because I think the next two major groups that are encountered represent interesting (and very different) approaches to civilization and the new world. I guess it could still follow that path, but Carl's death *feels* like it's meant to signify a major departure from the books going forward. Hopefully the trash people aren't representative of the showrunners' best ideas.
I may be done with it very soon. We'll see. I agree with KamikazeCanuck about the comic, though...I still enjoy it.
Haven't watched in a while, but ultimately the problem with the show is similar to anime. The adapted stuff from the source comic is great, but that only sustains about 7 minutes of an episode. The rest of the content gets padded out with inconsequential side stories and attempts to pass off stalling as dramatic tension.
There may have been some of that going on during the All Out War show arc because of its action focus, but I'd still put more blame at the feet of substandard writing and direction.
The show has never been slavish in its devotion to the source material, even under Gimple. The anime problem is a bigger issue for action-driven stories than character-driven stories, which tend to thrive when given more room to breathe and develop characters and relationships.
Well, bit of a damp squib to begin the second half with. Though I'm glad there was no 'actually he survives!' when it came to Corarlrrlasrlsl. Again, I'm a wee bit fed up of the damp and gloomy palette they've been using. Makes it difficult to fully appreciate just what is going on.
Caorlrlsgbjklasdfkflls little speech, about his vision for the future does bode well though. Pulling Rick back on track, showing there may yet be a way forward without further bloodshed. Or at least without having to wipe out one or other of the parties.
What I want to see? How many Saviours actually remain? Not a great many attacked Alexandria, and they took fair casualties there. Those that went to The Kingdom apparently wiped out to a man. And there's still a bushel or more held prisoner at Hilltop. Plus all those that snuffed it during Rick's rampage that locked them inside Sanctuary.
Ideally, I'd like to see a form of stalemate force some pow-wow between the factions. Rick has already brought together three, with a fourth (Seaside place) a possibility, and the God Awful Trash People (smell like Trash, talk like People. Trash People. Trash People) a very possible fifth. Surely The Saviours must be facing logistical, if not numerical, inferiority at this time?
Um...think he was mimicking Rick's weird, not-Southern-accented way of pronouncing Carl.
It's probably just me, but I actually think this was a better episode than what we had in the first half of the season. I don't think it was exceptional, and I'm pretty sure it was 20 minutes too long, but it felt a little more like TWD than what we've been getting lately.
I also see what they're doing with Carl's death. And I suppose that one could make the case that it was necessary given show Rick's constantly changing mental status. The problem I have with what they're building to is the *other side* of the eventual climax, and they've shown nothing to make me think that would happen.
Sorry if that's a bit cryptic. Comic spoilers ahead:
Spoiler:
Basically, I don't see how show Negan ever considers Rick's proposal of setting up normalized trade networks, etc. and lets down his guard. I'm also not sure that I see the show Saviors accepting the new world.
I see how they're setting up Carl's death to be the driving force behind Rick letting Negan live and being open to working with the Saviors. I don't think they needed Carl's death to get Rick there, but whatever. But the Negan side...it just seems out of character for show Negan, who is much more of a tyrant goofball and less pragmatic than book Negan ever was.
Then again, maybe it just goes down differently in the show. Maybe Rick beats the gak outta Negan and then tells him what's gonna happen. *shrug*
He is referring to the ridiculous pronunciation Andrew Lincoln sometimes manages when saying Carl. Got a pretty good one at the end of this episode.
As to this episode:
They finally took some steps to flesh Carl out a bit more and his relationship with Judith. Why did they wait until he was dying to do this? As it was, I felt like the episode was just dragging out the death scene- most turn quickly. Again, I felt like it was just another cynical attempt to manipulate viewers and still sloppy pacing/writing. Heck, it went on so long it almost got funny. Also super weird how many character he was close to don't stop by. And that the Dr. gave him an NSAID. Which would cause him to bleed out faster....
So the Survivors escape by making a perfect line of mowed down zombies to block the other zombies. Why didn't the snipers just plink them off again?
Morgan and Carol get their breaker switches flipped again. Because why not. And somebody pitched them standing in plain view to win a shootout and also Morgan pulls some guy's intestines out and the response was "Hell yeah!". Henry is my new favorite. Dude outninja'ed everybody and scored a crit backstab!
The show did aboid alot of useless annoying characters (trash people, Enid, etc.) and did a decent job focusing. So no doubt that will all be back next week.Alas, poor KORAL, we will miss you.
Yeah...I might have facepalmed in real life over the Saviors' breakout, I'm not sure. But no trash people was a godsend. I'd be 100% fine if they just never showed up again, even if that doesn't make sense. FOCUS.
I was also glad that they directed Andrew Lincoln to mostly stay away from his go-to move during big emotional moments -- namely, that glassy/weepy/bulgy/red-eyed, eyes-darting-around thing that he does. I thought it worked much better to not have him in full-on 'broken Rick mode' for 90 minutes but instead have him show more a little more range of emotion, including some almost emotionless shock.
For the remaining episodes in the season, I'm hoping for more character stuff, a relatively quick resolution of All Out War (they've proven that they just aren't going to handle the big action scenes well), and then an introduction to what comes next.
Edit: Per Variety, it was the lowest ratings they've had for a midseason premiere.
Season 2 (2012)– 4.2 rating, 8.1 million viewers
Season 3 (2013)– 6.1 rating, 12.3 million
Season 4 (2014)– 8.2 rating, 15.8 million viewers
Season 5 (2015)– 8.0 rating, 15.6 million viewers
Season 6 (2016)– 6.8 rating, 13.7 million viewers
Season 7 (2017)– 5.7 rating, 12 million viewers
Season 8 (2018)– 3.6 rating, 8.3 million viewers
Gak...the trash people are back, and they're meeting Simon of the Saviours. Lets hope they don't defect AGAIN. How many times has it been now?
Joined Rick's militia.
Defected to the Saviours.
Defected back to Rick's Militia.
Betrayed Rick's Militia, and now they're parleying with the Saviours again.
I hope that both sides loath and distrust them so much that nobody will take them back, and we spend an episode with both the Saviours and Rick's Militia hunting and eradicating the Trash people. That'll at least make for satisfying filler.
