jmurph wrote: Can we talk about FTWD? That episode was super slow. We're on a boat. Still on a boat. Dead mom drama was super lame. Also, the girl is shaping up to be a real liability/stupid character.
I agree that it was slow in some respects. However, I'm willing to chalk that up to it being the first episode of the 'season', and the writers wanting to establish the boat setting.
Regarding the girl, she may end up a liability, but she's a completely believable 17 year old character. Carl from TWD would behave differently, but he has experience with other survivor groups that the FTWD group lacks. Strand may be an evil @#$&, but being an evil @#$& gives him some important insight into how the post-ZA world will behave.
And why didn't they see the capsized ship and bodies (or a he smoke bank) from a mile away on calm seas?
Stealth technology. The same kind that's employed on TWD when zombies seemingly materialize just off-camera to threaten characters who should have seen them coming from many yards away.
Due to stuff I only just watched the finale now. I thought the episode was just bad overall. Besides the weak cop out ending Negan just doesn't feel like Negan and the storyline for the whole episode was just kind of stupid. It's too bad what was otherwise a good season had to end with this episode.
So crazy theory here; I was rewatching TWD and since people were trying to puzzle out Enid, I'm thinking (comic mention in spoiler)
Spoiler:
she is Lydia; Alpha's daughter. I think she's part of the Whisperers, and either escaped or is keeping an eye on Alexandria to make sure they aren't a threat. I'm leaning towards the first thing though; she escaped. She has her mother's knife, but makes no mention of her being dead. You hear it here first; Enid is our first whisperer, and she is the TV version of Alpha's daughter.
No she is not Lydia. That's impossible. We know how Enid's parents died, and we know the first people she encountered after their deaths were the inhabitants f Alexandria. She was wearing the same outfit as she was when her parents died, and it was clear that only a few days or weeks had passed.
This was all on screen, we saw it in a long flashback.
Spoiler:
Enid is the shows subsitute for Sophia, who is still alive in the comics. Carl has no other peers of his age now in Alexandria save Enid, hence she's the show's equivalent. Maggie will adopt Enid like she did Sophia, and they'll move to the Hilltop after Negan does his thing. We see Maggie and Enid becoming close in the last season, and Maggie is one of the people who persuades Enid to stay.
If we hadn't seen Enid's back story on screen and her origins were still mysterious then it might have been possible. But the episode JSS proved otherwise.
Hmmmm, I'm still not ready to throw away my idea on Enid. Anyway, there has been a confirmed death scene filmed! Or rather...there has been a death scene filmed for all 11 people in the lineup, who have been "killed" to throw off spoilers. So did Glenn die? Yup. Daryl? Yeah. Michonne? Rick? Abraham? Yeah. Everybody. So hopefully when the BluRay box set comes out we'll get to see every death that was filmed and how each reaction went. They also put out a C&D on the biggest rumor monger/spoiler site. So I think it's safe to say we really won't get it spoiled who died.
My bet is still on Michonne.
Well, we do know for sure who DIDN'T die. Certain actors were spotted filming new scenes for the next season, so their characters are definitely alive. I doubt the smoke and daggers would extend to filming scenes for a character that's already dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it was Abraham.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well, we do know for sure who DIDN'T die. Certain actors were spotted filming new scenes for the next season, so their characters are definitely alive. I doubt the smoke and daggers would extend to filming scenes for a character that's already dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it was Abraham.
I had something written, and my damn phone did a hard reset. Blah. Anyway, they're also filming every episode out of order to hide it, and all dead characters have had flashbacks. So it's still pretty up in the air for a lot of them. Certain characters have been filmed in new territory, which likely rules them out...but not 100% certain. However, there was a huge cast pic that went up, and Carl was strangely absent...
The only thing I dislike about their act of secrecy is the C&D attack against their biggest fans. It could have the potential to cause some really bad blood.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well, we do know for sure who DIDN'T die. Certain actors were spotted filming new scenes for the next season, so their characters are definitely alive. I doubt the smoke and daggers would extend to filming scenes for a character that's already dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it was Abraham.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well, we do know for sure who DIDN'T die. Certain actors were spotted filming new scenes for the next season, so their characters are definitely alive. I doubt the smoke and daggers would extend to filming scenes for a character that's already dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it was Abraham.
Heh.
Apparently, they came out and said that they have filmed deaths for every character.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Well, we do know for sure who DIDN'T die. Certain actors were spotted filming new scenes for the next season, so their characters are definitely alive. I doubt the smoke and daggers would extend to filming scenes for a character that's already dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it was Abraham.
Heh.
Apparently, they came out and said that they have filmed deaths for every character.
For last season.
I'm talking about next season. Certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes entirely unrelated to the Negan execution scene. They might take several takes of that scene with different outcomes, because that doesn't cost too much. But they're not going to waste part of next Season's budget paying an actor to film new scenes for future episodes when that character is dead.
Remember when nobody saw Steven Yuen on set after his "death"?
Just because certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes doesn't mean anything. It just means that certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes.
Kanluwen wrote: Remember when nobody saw Steven Yuen on set after his "death"?
Just because certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes doesn't mean anything. It just means that certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes.
Yes it does, it means that those particular actors who have been spotted have not been killed off (or at the very least are filming flashback scenes).
So if we don't even know if the characters that are being filmed are dead or not(since they can be flashbacks and whatnot), we can't really draw any conclusions about who ended up tasting the bat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although if they're putting this much effort in keeping it a secret I imagine they won't follow the comics. All the extra deaths they filmed plus C&D a fan site seems like a bit much for an ending that's already spoiled.
Unless that's what they want you to think! It's all smoke and mirrors!
Kanluwen wrote: Remember when nobody saw Steven Yuen on set after his "death"?
Just because certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes doesn't mean anything. It just means that certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes.
Yes it does, it means that those particular actors who have been spotted have not been killed off (or at the very least are filming flashback scenes).
You do know that not every moment of filming is spotted/photographed yeah?
They have a crazy security setup around their sets.
Kanluwen wrote: Remember when nobody saw Steven Yuen on set after his "death"?
Just because certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes doesn't mean anything. It just means that certain actors have been spotted and photographed filming new scenes.
Yes it does, it means that those particular actors who have been spotted have not been killed off (or at the very least are filming flashback scenes).
You do know that not every moment of filming is spotted/photographed yeah?
They have a crazy security setup around their sets.
So? I never said that.
What I have said, ad nauseam, and what people are still failing to comprehend, is that particular actors have been spotted, in costume, filming scenes for the next season. That is strong evidence that their particular characters are likely to have survived last seasons finale.
They werent n spotted on a set, they were spotted on location. There's a big difference there.
I'm still betting on it being Eugene that died. That feels right based on Neegan's comment about whoever it was taking it like champ. He would have expected most of the group to take it like a champ based on their hardened condition.
That said I'm pretty good with whoever goes. I'm just excited for it to come back so we can have more good TV because Fear isn't quite doing it for me and Preacher is moving a bit slowly to start.
This is exactly what those cliffhanger bastards want us to do! That being said I think it's going to be Glenn. That's why they did so many fake out Glenn deaths, so they could surprise us with an actual Glenn death!
Actually, it seems a bunch of people are getting behind the Michonne idea. She's a badass and it would send one helluva message to Rick. Plus no awkward future love triangle as she's supposed to start a relationship with someone else. Actually, I much prefer tv Michonne. Comic Michonne is kind of a slut.
Michone getting offed would really, really deal a blow to Rick, and set him way back - really shatter his confidence, and lead to needing allies from the Hilltop and...possibly that 'other place' that they may have met someone from in the finale...
timetowaste85 wrote: Actually, it seems a bunch of people are getting behind the Michonne idea. She's a badass and it would send one helluva message to Rick. Plus no awkward future love triangle as she's supposed to start a relationship with someone else. Actually, I much prefer tv Michonne. Comic Michonne is kind of a slut.
Really - a Slut? What do you mean ?
Considering what she went through at the hands of the Governor she was understandably been reluctant to engage with anyone in that way as far as I recall?
timetowaste85 wrote: Actually, it seems a bunch of people are getting behind the Michonne idea. She's a badass and it would send one helluva message to Rick. Plus no awkward future love triangle as she's supposed to start a relationship with someone else. Actually, I much prefer tv Michonne. Comic Michonne is kind of a slut.
Really - a Slut? What do you mean ?
Considering what she went through at the hands of the Governor she was understandably been reluctant to engage with anyone in that way as far as I recall?
Even before the governor, she was a bit of a "slut". Tyreese and Carol were in a relationship at the prison. Michonne showed up one day, seduced Tyreese and ended his relationship with Carol.
Spoiler:
Carol later committed suicide.
To be fair though, Michonne had spent a long time alone and was traumatised. Throwing herself at Tyreese was likely out of a desperate need for companionship.
There was Tyrese, then Morgan, then her attempt with Heath who told her "I've heard about you; I'm in a relationship, and I don't want to screw it up", then the guy we haven't met yet. She broke up one relationship, tried to break up another, and verbally bitch slapped and talked a third into it who wasn't ready yet after his own grieving processes. All cuz she was hungry for some sausage.
I'm not saying it's bad that she wanted companionship or to hook up...but she tries to drag two guys out of relationships, sleeps with one guy then runs away (the one we haven't met), and Morgan she kind of sexually attacks before he admits he's ready. She was definitely out taking advantage of guy she wanted.
I thought they killed off the two most fun characters in the group, and now, more than ever, we're left with a bunch of mopedy-mopes.
Also, still felt there was no real need to keep the death reveals until the premiere, especially when it meant slowing down the finale so much. Otherwise, the episode did what they wanted it to do (bum you out).
I thought they killed off the two most fun characters in the group, and now, more than ever, we're left with a bunch of mopedy-mopes.
Also, still felt there was no real need to keep the death reveals until the premiere, especially when it meant slowing down the finale so much. Otherwise, the episode did what they wanted it to do (bum you out).
They did a rather cruel thing with the delayed Glen kill too - that was rather extra evil of them.
Combined with the fact that Daryl WILL blame himself for that...forever.
Oh, and Daryl's a prisoner too now.
There was a bit too much of an FU to the "If Daryl Dies We Riot" demographic tonight!
Still, glad it is here and that we've go this out of the way - let's move on.
And let's hope the TV Negan Arc isn't dragged out as much as the comic one was!
I admit the double kill got me. I thought they'd copped put with just Abraham but then boom, Glenn too. That said I didn't feel as much as I would have if Daryl had gotten the bat.
Overall a good episode and an excellent send off for both actors. Gonna miss the he'll out of Abraham.
Also maybe with them gone we'll get more of Aaron and Jesus who stand to be at least as fun as just Abraham so it's possible it could be more fun than previously but this season feels like there is going to be very limited humor.
We expected one death... we got two. I wanted more dialogue gold from Abraham, and we indeed got one last quip from him in a moment of bittersweetness, but I was not prepared for the slow, incredibly graphic end of Glenn. I had to get up and take a short walk during the commercials
Now my prediction for this season was that the death (presumed to be a single death) would be among Abraham, Eugene, and Glenn, but I was certain Eugene was foreshadowed to be killed off. He had a long farewell with Rick and Abraham, and also gave Rick the bullet recipe. So I was partly wrong with my prediction... yet I was more right than I cared to be.
I would have rather had Daryl bite it than Glenn. But Negan showed the monster he is: "I won't kill you if you screw with me...I'll kill someone else, and you get to suffer knowing you lived, and they died for your mistake." It's a harsh lesson, and a brutal one.
timetowaste85 wrote: I would have rather had Daryl bite it than Glenn. But Negan showed the monster he is: "I won't kill you if you screw with me...I'll kill someone else, and you get to suffer knowing you lived, and they died for your mistake." It's a harsh lesson, and a brutal one.
I guess we've got to admit how effective of a scare tactic that appears to be. Who would even dare put a toe out of line if it costs the life of someone you love, rather than throw your own life away? Especially if said person is chosen at random...
Yup, extremely brutal episode. I couldn't help but be frustrated by Rick's mouthing off and Darryl's outburst. Negan just brutally murdered one of your friends without hesitation and told you that if anyone so much as talked, there would be another. Then that. Plus, I really liked Glen.
Smart Rick would have been like "Yessir, whatever you ask is done," while looking as pathetic as possible and secretly counting how many men there were, noting weapons, etc. and encouraging the group to not provoke Negan. Follow his rules and be smart- look for a weakness down the line.
Well, yes, of course, and they'll probably end up there soon - at least I hope so, because I can't take too many super-mopey episodes, though clearly we're due for a stretch of them.
Glen was...doomed.
It was coming for him - it is just The Walking Dead *had* to have this happen to him, I guess...
I kinda feel like them killing Glenn is a bit silly.
They did that whole bit last season, and went out of their way to emphasize that "No no no, Glenn won't be the one killed by Negan. We're different to the comics" and things like that...only to do it anyways.
Ah well. Brutal episode. Jeffrey Dean Morgan killed it as Negan, no pun intended.
They did that whole bit last season, and went out of their way to emphasize that "No no no, Glenn won't be the one killed by Negan. We're different to the comics" and things like that...only to do it anyways.
Did they actually say that?
They teased the whole 'Glen is really dead here guys! Maybe!' but I don't remember them saying that he was NOT going to get killed by Negan, as in the comics.
They did that whole bit last season, and went out of their way to emphasize that "No no no, Glenn won't be the one killed by Negan. We're different to the comics" and things like that...only to do it anyways.
Did they actually say that?
They teased the whole 'Glen is really dead here guys! Maybe!' but I don't remember them saying that he was NOT going to get killed by Negan, as in the comics.
They didn't specifically say it, but they kept saying that Glenn was one of the few that was "safe" since they had done it previously.
I don't follow the comics so I can't really say much about the way things worked in the book around this time, but it's just one of those things where I think this might have been a misstep for the show.
I hate to harp on the cliffhanger, but it really changed the experience from the comic book, and I think that played into how the episode played out.
In the comic, you don't go into that issue expecting a major character to die. It's sprung on you right at the end of the issue, leaving you saying "holy gak!"
In the show, we knew there'd be a death, so the writers had to make it 'worth' the wait and buildup. Ergo, they had to go OTT with not just one but two deaths and two teased amputations. Although this episode also had to establish Negan, and the brutality helped do that. Still, the writers backed themselves into a corner with the cliffhanger, and as a result this episode basically wrote itself. And I don't think it was better for it. Lots of suspense/titillation/whatever...not so much story.
Hopefully we'll see some more interesting narratives now that Negan's introduction is out of the way. Although it feels like they're tracking the comic more closely than ever now. I'm not sure I like that, actually.
Morgan was pretty solid in the role. He's not a great physical match for comic Negan, but he did capture one thing that really typifies the character -- Negan just loves being Negan. Every day, he wakes up just loving being himself.
On the Talking Dead the Glenn actor actually stated that he specifically told them not to give that death to anyone else. He knew the impact it was supposed to have and couldn't imagine his character going out any other way.
That said I loved JDM but he still hasn't recovered physically from a rancher role he did where he got down to like 130lbs or something stupid. Hopefully he puts the weight back on because he always felt like a physically imposing dude in most things I've seen him in up until he did that for the other role.
I'm kinda excited to see where the season goes. And let's be real, they needed someone like JDM to play Negan after the rockstar awesome job the actor that played the Govenor did. Wouldn't do to be able to compare them side by side and have Negan feel weaker just because of how he got played.
I haven't really watched it since the Wolves. After they killed Beth and fake killed Glenn I wasn't interested. Its recorded and the wife was talking about rewatching those episodes with the new season starter.
Hulksmash wrote: On the Talking Dead the Glenn actor actually stated that he specifically told them not to give that death to anyone else. He knew the impact it was supposed to have and couldn't imagine his character going out any other way.
See, I thought that was a great answer...but like I mentioned, I feel like after the fakeout last season it was a huge misstep.
Negan is easily more fun than Abraham and Glenn put together. Of course, he's also a psychopathic monster and the bad guy. *shrug*
And I still say the issue wasn't that they killed either of them...it's that they had to devote an entire episode of a short season to it because of their decision with the cliffhanger. It's done now, and hopefully they get back to crafting a narrative.
gorgon wrote: I hate to harp on the cliffhanger, but it really changed the experience from the comic book, and I think that played into how the episode played out.
In the comic, you don't go into that issue expecting a major character to die. It's sprung on you right at the end of the issue, leaving you saying "holy gak!"
In the show, we knew there'd be a death, so the writers had to make it 'worth' the wait and buildup. Ergo, they had to go OTT with not just one but two deaths and two teased amputations. Although this episode also had to establish Negan, and the brutality helped do that. Still, the writers backed themselves into a corner with the cliffhanger, and as a result this episode basically wrote itself. And I don't think it was better for it. Lots of suspense/titillation/whatever...not so much story.
Hopefully we'll see some more interesting narratives now that Negan's introduction is out of the way. Although it feels like they're tracking the comic more closely than ever now. I'm not sure I like that, actually.
Morgan was pretty solid in the role. He's not a great physical match for comic Negan, but he did capture one thing that really typifies the character -- Negan just loves being Negan. Every day, he wakes up just loving being himself.
Totally agree with all of this. I think they made the right decision to go with the surprise bonus death. Their goal was a gut punch and that acccomlised it but it also didn't need to be a 1.5 hour episode. The weird Negan-Rick RV side journey could have been cut.
One thing they always do on this show is take moments from Carl. IIRC in the comic Carl is staring at Negan like a psychopath the entire time while everyone else is bawling their eyes out. They should have keep that. And then Negan is sort of "charmed" by that and takes him in. I don't think replacing Carl in that storyline with Daryl is a good idea. We're never going to buy that Daryl can be seduced to the dark side like Carl.
I hope they aren't switching the Carl storyline. It's an important part of Carl's growth, and he's a key character in stuff that comes later. To be fair, that's not how Carl went to the Sanctuary, so maybe Daryl will just be the audiences' eyes and ears inside Negan's group until them.
gorgon wrote: Negan is easily more fun than Abraham and Glenn put together. Of course, he's also a psychopathic monster and the bad guy. *shrug*
And I still say the issue wasn't that they killed either of them...it's that they had to devote an entire episode of a short season to it because of their decision with the cliffhanger. It's done now, and hopefully they get back to crafting a narrative.
Agreed - it took 2 episodes to do waht could have been done more effectively in one.- coyuld have just had Negans crew wating for them at Hilltop - none of the nonsense with roadblocks and such.
Tough call on who was to die and that bit was done well -but the ride Rick took with Negan seeemd filler - should have just gone to the "chop his hand off" - which was great stuff, very powerful.
On the bright side = so we lose Ramsey in GOT and get Negan in WD - fun times, decent bad guys are such an assest. Hell Negan probably figured he went easy on them considering they killed what 50 of his people.
Assume we will get a Daryl in the lions den episode and looking forward to the Kingdom!
I do hope the Kingdom isn't as derpy as it looks. So far, the previews with the pads and tigers looks more likely to make me chuckle than anything. How a bunch of goofs in sports pads don't get scooped up by Negan's folks is a mystery....
jmurph wrote: I do hope the Kingdom isn't as derpy as it looks. So far, the previews with the pads and tigers looks more likely to make me chuckle than anything. How a bunch of goofs in sports pads don't get scooped up by Negan's folks is a mystery....
People wearing armour makes sense in Zombieland
You think Negan has not visted them?
Whats actually more wierd is that Negan never visted Alexandria prior to Rick. Well apart from a plot point.
Yeah, I want to see hardcore guys with chainmail and plate to defeat zombie teeth, and using real shields to slam zombies.
My favorite bad guy was always the Protector in the post-apocolyptic "Dies the Fire" book series, who uses his SCA knowledge and a history doctorate to set up a pseudo-midieval state-spanning empire that would make the Emperor smile. A "good guy" take on that would be pretty cool.
gorgon wrote: I hope they aren't switching the Carl storyline. It's an important part of Carl's growth, and he's a key character in stuff that comes later. To be fair, that's not how Carl went to the Sanctuary, so maybe Daryl will just be the audiences' eyes and ears inside Negan's group until them.
And they took
Spoiler:
Carl's killing of Shane and gave it to Rick and also Carl's execution of that kid who killed her sister and gave it to Carol.
Just don't get why they keep doing that. Carl is actually supposed to be a badass.
jmurph wrote: I do hope the Kingdom isn't as derpy as it looks. So far, the previews with the pads and tigers looks more likely to make me chuckle than anything. How a bunch of goofs in sports pads don't get scooped up by Negan's folks is a mystery....
People wearing armour makes sense in Zombieland
You think Negan has not visted them?
Whats actually more wierd is that Negan never visted Alexandria prior to Rick. Well apart from a plot point.
Alexandria as portrayed made no sense whatsoever And it's not that armor isn't useful- it's that sports store gear looks stupid and seems to be of debatable use when zombies seem to just bite unprotected areas anyway and are capable of ripping someone apart by force of numbers. Gloves actually make a ton of sense for a number of reasons. If we want to go down the believable path, denim and leather should stop walkers cold, meaning someone with jeans, leather boots, leather gloves, a secured canvas/leather/denim jacket, and some sort of helmet should be pretty much immune to zombies. But as we've seen, WD walkers can even use their hands to breach your abdominal wall!
For me this season picked up where the last one left off, with an overwhelming feeling of get the F on with it.
The whole episode I was just left wondering why nobody was doing anything. Why would Abhrams, a military guy, just sit there while a guy swings a bat at his head? S*** I could have dealt with Negan if put in that situation.
How many chances did rick have to bury that axe in Negans face?
Just argh, what's wrong with them. It's just frustrating to watch. Why did this one scene take up 2 whole episodes. What did we learn, Negan is a bad guy. Join the queue, everyone we meet in the series is. Can we do something new and interesting now?
When they are all in the death circle no one can do anything because they all have guns trained on them.
But ya, those solo Rick-Negan moments there were definitely some opportunities for some hatcheting. That's another reason I wasn't a big fan of that sequence. Like I said, it just seemed to be there to fill time for an extended episode.
I gotta agree with a lot of what's being said here, and in most of the online reviews about the premiere I've been reading...the premiere, and much of last season taken in totality really is starting to feel like the primary motivation for the showrunners now is to get specific audience reactions through manipulation, rather than just telling an interesting story and letting the audience reaction play out naturally. I mean look, subverting audience expectations on a show like this is certainly necessary to some degree (especially when you have an existing ongoing comic as source material), but when that becomes the force that drives narrative decisions, I think only bad things can come out of that mindset.
The showrunners admitted on the Talking Dead last night that they've known, more or less, what was going to happen with Neegan, Glen & Abraham for two years. That means Glen's fakeout deaths last season were essentially a way for them to play with the audience's love of Glen's character a few more times before they offed him. I said last season when the 'Glen under a dumpster' arc was playing out, but it sure seemed like they had let the concept of keeping 'the audience in the dark' about Glen's fate take precedence over telling a good story, and now I'm about 100% sure of it, as now in hindsight the way they structured the finale & premiere did the exact same thing again.
The truth (IMHO, of course) is that they strung out the end of Alexandria to have that shocking finale, and they strung out these deaths (and added a 2nd death) simply to get around the narrative holes they had dug themselves into to get these shocks into the show. If the showrunners were admitting that perhaps they dug themselves into a bit of a hole and were a little unhappy with how some things turned out with the end of last season and the premiere, then I'd be reassured moving forward that things are going to get great again, but the fact that they seem completely pleased with how they've handled this, gives me serious concerns about the future of the show.
If the 'shocks' continue to be the main priority, and the narrative continues to get warped or degraded in service to fitting these 'shocks' in, then it will only be a matter of time before the audience gets tired of the shocks and starts to tune out en masse as the story and characters no longer interest them. I hope I'm wrong...I hope they gotten over their obsession to 'trick' the audience as a primary motivation and can just get back to telling an interesting narrative with all these new communities and characters that are on the way this season.
jmurph wrote: I do hope the Kingdom isn't as derpy as it looks. So far, the previews with the pads and tigers looks more likely to make me chuckle than anything. How a bunch of goofs in sports pads don't get scooped up by Negan's folks is a mystery....
To be fair...that's fairly true to the comics. The Kingdom IS kinda derpy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tamereth wrote: For me this season picked up where the last one left off, with an overwhelming feeling of get the F on with it.
The whole episode I was just left wondering why nobody was doing anything. Why would Abhrams, a military guy, just sit there while a guy swings a bat at his head? S*** I could have dealt with Negan if put in that situation.
How many chances did rick have to bury that axe in Negans face?
Just argh, what's wrong with them. It's just frustrating to watch. Why did this one scene take up 2 whole episodes. What did we learn, Negan is a bad guy. Join the queue, everyone we meet in the series is. Can we do something new and interesting now?
They were surrounded, outnumbered, outgunned and disarmed. Negan made perfectly clear that more people would die if anyone interfered, and made good on that threat. They had a choice of making a futile attempt to intervene and killing EVERYBODY in the process, or submitting.
Negan was trying to teach them a lesson: submit or die. They failed to learn that lesson, and Glenn died for it. Clearly you're struggling to learn it too if you think there was anything they could have possibly done They were doomed the moment they were surrounded in the clearing.
Abraham knew he was sacrificing himself, taking one for the team so none of his friends have to die...(about that...thanks Daryl!).
Rick was the slowest to learn the lesson of all of them. It required threatening his son to truly break him.
I think the point is Negan is the one keeping that group together. If Rick had steeped out of that RV with a rifle in one hand and Negan head with an axe in his face in the other.....
More over when rick is on the ground with an axe in his hand, and Negan was drawing the line across Carl's arm, 99% of people would have swung that axe at Negan.
Self preservation is a hard instinct to overcome, just sitting there and taking a bat to the head is completely unnatural. There's a reason people committing suicide don't just hold themselves underwater in the bath.
If that was me and my friends I can't envision the scene playing out the way it did, it went against the natural reaction of people, and it breaks the emersion. Would me and my friends have gotten ourselves killed?, well that's a different discussion.
Tamereth wrote: I think the point is Negan is the one keeping that group together. If Rick had steeped out of that RV with a rifle in one hand and Negan head with an axe in his face in the other.....
More over when rick is on the ground with an axe in his hand, and Negan was drawing the line across Carl's arm, 99% of people would have swung that axe at Negan.
Self preservation is a hard instinct to overcome, just sitting there and taking a bat to the head is completely unnatural. There's a reason people committing suicide don't just hold themselves underwater in the bath.
If that was me and my friends I can't envision the scene playing out the way it did, it went against the natural reaction of people, and it breaks the emersion. Would me and my friends have gotten ourselves killed?, well that's a different discussion.
Not sure - people don't usually fight when they are executed - even when they have nothing to loose - its very rare.
It also comes across as inconsistent with similar previous portrayals, namely with Terminus and the guys trying to Deliverance Carl. So on the one hand, the groups is shown to be almost action movie like in ability to jump armed attackers, and in this one, they have to play submissive for dramatic effect. It calls back the same disconnect between the group operating like a pseudo commando team to eliminate Negan's forces, but then can't figure out to double back and wipe out roadblock forces (or even see them coming). Very incongruous. (And unnecessary since they could have just had them surround the group en masse, but I digress.)
I agree with Yak that it seems like they are really relying on heavy handed emotional manipulation at this point instead of coherent character and story development because they have kind of written themselves into some tight spots.
jmurph wrote: It also comes across as inconsistent with similar previous portrayals, namely with Terminus and the guys trying to Deliverance Carl. So on the one hand, the groups is shown to be almost action movie like in ability to jump armed attackers, and in this one, they have to play submissive for dramatic effect. It calls back the same disconnect between the group operating like a pseudo commando team to eliminate Negan's forces, but then can't figure out to double back and wipe out roadblock forces (or even see them coming). Very incongruous. (And unnecessary since they could have just had them surround the group en masse, but I digress.)
I agree with Yak that it seems like they are really relying on heavy handed emotional manipulation at this point instead of coherent character and story development because they have kind of written themselves into some tight spots.
For all my complaining, I gotta say the group's behavior when facing that situation isn't something I have any problem with...I thought it was rather believable given the circumstances and consistent with what I thought those characters would likely do in that situation.
It is quite a different situation from Terminus. In Terminus, everyone was going to be killed, no exceptions. Plus, there were significantly less guards in that room. Here, they were pretty much completely surrounded with dozens of armed guards, but more importantly (in my mind), they were being given a choice...a grisly choice, yes, but a choice none the less. They knew that there was a at least some chance that Negan was telling the truth and that if they let him kill one of the group, the rest would survive. Not only that, each person knew that if they were the one to attack, then they would be responsible for anything that happened beyond the single kill (ala what Daryl did).
So as horrible a predicament as they were in facing Negan, it wasn't anywhere near as bad as where they were in Terminus, where the whole group was simply going to be killed, without any options being given.
Tamereth wrote:I think the point is Negan is the one keeping that group together. If Rick had steeped out of that RV with a rifle in one hand and Negan head with an axe in his face in the other.....
More over when rick is on the ground with an axe in his hand, and Negan was drawing the line across Carl's arm, 99% of people would have swung that axe at Negan.
Self preservation is a hard instinct to overcome, just sitting there and taking a bat to the head is completely unnatural. There's a reason people committing suicide don't just hold themselves underwater in the bath.
If that was me and my friends I can't envision the scene playing out the way it did, it went against the natural reaction of people, and it breaks the emersion. Would me and my friends have gotten ourselves killed?, well that's a different discussion.
Again, Rick's (and everyone else's) behavior comes back to the fact that if you were to stand up and fight, you'd be causing more of the group to die. If Rick came out of that RV with Negan's head in his hands, there's no reason to think that the rest of the group wouldn't have followed out Negan's orders and killed every one of the group (including Carl) in front of Rick's face. I think the point of the whole episode is that there absolutely was ample places for Rick to take Negan out...or at the very least take him out at the cost of his own life (which I think he was gladly willing to give), but he absolutely couldn't, because taking Negan out would not somehow magically turn the Saviors into 'his' group...they would likely just kill his entire group in retribution.
Tamereth wrote: Would me and my friends have gotten ourselves killed?, well that's a different discussion.
Yes, you would have, and for nothing other than apparently your pride. But that can't happen on the show like that because then there wouldn't be a show, right?
And you call for realism, but expect that Negan's guys are going to bow to Rick and call him their leader if he ends Negan?
Tamereth wrote: Would me and my friends have gotten ourselves killed?, well that's a different discussion.
Yes, you would have, and for nothing other than apparently your pride. But that can't happen on the show like that because then there wouldn't be a show, right?
And you call for realism, but expect that Negan's guys are going to bow to Rick and call him their leader if he ends Negan?
I do think Negan had to do something impressive to put them in their place as his force had suffered major casualties without loss to Ricks crew and that was going to cause rumblings with no serious payback. Probably some of Negans crew still thought that Rick and co got off easy.
"Hey they killed fifty of us and we just kill two of 'em...sheesh"
Hopefully the show will improve again and have less filler.
I was disappointed with the episode overall.
Thought there was very little tension in it, relying more on grisly beatings and Negans (imho very questionable "presence").
In hindsight I think they should have done the death/deaths at the end of last season and just got on with it for this one.
The whole 6 month break of theorising and speculation sort of ruined it for me.
I also feel a bit cheated that the only way Negan is breaking Rick is by removing the characters that would 100% stand up to him - especially Ab and Daryl (is he going to be locked in a box for this season?) and Glen who would fight to the end for Maggie/his kid.
Ratius wrote: I was disappointed with the episode overall. Thought there was very little tension in it, relying more on grisly beatings and Negans (imho very questionable "presence"). In hindsight I think they should have done the death/deaths at the end of last season and just got on with it for this one. The whole 6 month break of theorising and speculation sort of ruined it for me.
I also feel a bit cheated that the only way Negan is breaking Rick is by removing the characters that would 100% stand up to him - especially Ab and Daryl (is he going to be locked in a box for this season?) and Glen who would fight to the end for Maggie/his kid.
Ho hum but on we go I suppose.
Well I think the first person he kills is perfect from Negan's perspective and ours. Abraham is obviously a soldier and Negan pegs him as Rick's right hand (incorrectly but a good guess). Killing the biggest and strongest sends a message on it's own and also allows him to let his people see him reducing the threat to them when he lets most of them off. Additionally it's one less person he has to "break". Because Abraham was never going to show fear or break to Negan and he knew that (or intuated it). Glenn he had no way of knowing how he'd act. He was just a dude close to Daryl so he beat him to death.
Oddly the people in Rick's group at least as likely as Abraham to fight back are the women. Maggie has always responded to being pushed with pushing back at the right time and we don't even need to cover Michone.
Honestly I wish the death had happened last season, that we hadn't had the silly break Rick side quest (though I enjoyed Negan and Rick it was still kinda pointless), and they hadn't killed Abraham simply because he was a bit of light in a pretty dark show. Hopefully Negan, Jesus, and maybe Aaron can make up for some of that lost levity but man, it's going to be hard to beat "Mother Dick" or "Dolphin Smooth" deliveries done by Abraham.
Oddly the people in Rick's group at least as likely as Abraham to fight back are the women. Maggie has always responded to being pushed with pushing back at the right time and we don't even need to cover Michone.
Thats fair comment. I dont follow the comics but have read bits n bobs saying Maggie starts to really come into her own as a warrior post Glen.
And Carol still has to come back
Hulksmash wrote: Well I think the first person he kills is perfect from Negan's perspective and ours. Abraham is obviously a soldier and Negan pegs him as Rick's right hand (incorrectly but a good guess). Killing the biggest and strongest sends a message on it's own and also allows him to let his people see him reducing the threat to them when he lets most of them off. Additionally it's one less person he has to "break". Because Abraham was never going to show fear or break to Negan and he knew that (or intuated it). Glenn he had no way of knowing how he'd act. He was just a dude close to Daryl so he beat him to death.
Yeah, Lucille and some other stuff to come aside, Negan has a decent sense of how to read and manipulate people. Supposedly we'll see why that is onscreen this season.
Honestly I wish the death had happened last season, that we hadn't had the silly break Rick side quest (though I enjoyed Negan and Rick it was still kinda pointless), and they hadn't killed Abraham simply because he was a bit of light in a pretty dark show. Hopefully Negan, Jesus, and maybe Aaron can make up for some of that lost levity but man, it's going to be hard to beat "Mother Dick" or "Dolphin Smooth" deliveries done by Abraham.
The road trip with Negan and Rick had its moments, and conceptually it's kind of hilarious. But it felt like an odd interlude overall.
And I doubt we're going to see much levity this season. Maybe they'll work in some at the Kingdom, since that seems a little more insulated from current events as of now. Negan should give us plenty of chuckles, albeit really, really dark ones.
Ratius wrote: Thats fair comment. I dont follow the comics but have read bits n bobs saying Maggie starts to really come into her own as a warrior post Glen.
And Carol still has to come back
While true...I don't think Glenn had to die in order for that to happen. Doesn't matter though.
This episode wrapped it all up for me. Might as well been the series finale. Rick's will to lead breaks and his crew gets busted up and Maggie goes to Hilltop to join with the lead dude there.
The biggest and baddest group wins. Very apocalyptic I guess.
I'll pass on the "sucks to be a fan" direction of the show. There's enough suck in real life outside torture porn "entertainment ".
See, Byte, I don't view it as "torture porn". Hell, my favorite character just got turned into a pile of mushed ravioli. But for those of us who read the comics, we KNEW this moment was coming. For someone, at least. It had to be graphic, because the show is MUCH more popular than the comics, and the issue where Negan pulps his victim was THE milestone. If the show "pussied out", it would have lost more than it gained. It HAD to happen. And I don't think we'I'll quite see anything like this for quite a while. I just about puked when my favorite character took the bat for Daryl's "crime". But I am still going to continue. Even if the light has gone down.
Ya know...Glenn was the character I associated with best. He was the most human of the group, he was the nerd and the dork...he even married the farmer's daughter (I'm currently dating a farmer's daughter), so it's even more of a draw. And...it was rough watching it. VERY rough. Worst thing I've ever seen on cable. Let's face it...Negan is the worst villain on cable (discounts HBO and other pay-per-view shows' villains).
Hulksmash wrote: Honestly I wish the death had happened last season, that we hadn't had the silly break Rick side quest (though I enjoyed Negan and Rick it was still kinda pointless), and they hadn't killed Abraham simply because he was a bit of light in a pretty dark show. Hopefully Negan, Jesus, and maybe Aaron can make up for some of that lost levity but man, it's going to be hard to beat "Mother Dick" or "Dolphin Smooth" deliveries done by Abraham.
Totally agreed on both counts.
I'm completely convinced that:
Abraham was 'let' to live past where his death was in the comic so he'd be available to be killed by Negan, thereby throwing the audience off for Glenn's death. I think the showrunners were afraid that if Negan killed a 'not as popular' new person (Aaron, Eugene, Sasha, etc) first, then the audience wouldn't think that death was worth the 6-month post-finale 'build-up', so they'd be instantly wary and expecting something else bad to happen. Since they didn't want to kill off any of the other 'core' characters (Rick, Carl, Michonne, & Daryl) this way, it had to be Abraham, just to make sure Glenn's subsequent death was a complete shock to most viewers.
This kind of thinking being used to guide a show however, is sooooo problematic. It shows that the creators are becoming way less okay with having a big twist in the comic simply play out in the show anymore. Instead, they're actually considering the fact that because people have read the comic, things that should be shocking to a TV audience, might not be, and they're twisting and contorting their stories to try to get the shocking twist back in there and play off of people's expectations from the comic book. This is the tail wagging the dog. Given that the showrunners have admitted that they more or less planned Glenn's death to happen here for over two years, it does mean that all the malarkey with him 'dying' under the dumpster was absolutely a way for them to twist the audience up as much as possible about Glenn's potential death (get extra ratings and buzz about fan favorite Glenn's death 2-3 times) as well as to kind of throw the audience off about him getting killed by Negan. I'm sure quite a few people thought (I heard people say this): 'There's no way they're going to have Negan kill Glenn now after all they just put him through.'
If I'm right, that means quite a few narrative decisions last season were mainly driven by the insane need to make the 'shocking' death of Glen on the TV show just as shocking as it was in the comic, and that's sad and disturbing for this show's future.
In think Sascha will die late this season or early next season.
Spoiler:
she's clearly a mashup of Holly (Abraham's mistress/new girl friend) and Andrea (her sniper skills). Negan kills Holly when she goes all Rambo to get revenge for Abraham and crashes a car through the gate of the Saviours compound, letting a horde of walker's in. Something I can see Sasha doing..
Hulksmash wrote: Honestly I wish the death had happened last season, that we hadn't had the silly break Rick side quest (though I enjoyed Negan and Rick it was still kinda pointless), and they hadn't killed Abraham simply because he was a bit of light in a pretty dark show. Hopefully Negan, Jesus, and maybe Aaron can make up for some of that lost levity but man, it's going to be hard to beat "Mother Dick" or "Dolphin Smooth" deliveries done by Abraham.
Totally agreed on both counts.
I'm completely convinced that:
Abraham was 'let' to live past where his death was in the comic so he'd be available to be killed by Negan, thereby throwing the audience off for Glenn's death. I think the showrunners were afraid that if Negan killed a 'not as popular' new person (Aaron, Eugene, Sasha, etc) first, then the audience wouldn't think that death was worth the 6-month post-finale 'build-up', so they'd be instantly wary and expecting something else bad to happen. Since they didn't want to kill off any of the other 'core' characters (Rick, Carl, Michonne, & Daryl) this way, it had to be Abraham, just to make sure Glenn's subsequent death was a complete shock to most viewers.
This kind of thinking being used to guide a show however, is sooooo problematic. It shows that the creators are becoming way less okay with having a big twist in the comic simply play out in the show anymore. Instead, they're actually considering the fact that because people have read the comic, things that should be shocking to a TV audience, might not be, and they're twisting and contorting their stories to try to get the shocking twist back in there and play off of people's expectations from the comic book. This is the tail wagging the dog. Given that the showrunners have admitted that they more or less planned Glenn's death to happen here for over two years, it does mean that all the malarkey with him 'dying' under the dumpster was absolutely a way for them to twist the audience up as much as possible about Glenn's potential death (get extra ratings and buzz about fan favorite Glenn's death 2-3 times) as well as to kind of throw the audience off about him getting killed by Negan. I'm sure quite a few people thought (I heard people say this): 'There's no way they're going to have Negan kill Glenn now after all they just put him through.'
If I'm right, that means quite a few narrative decisions last season were mainly driven by the insane need to make the 'shocking' death of Glen on the TV show just as shocking as it was in the comic, and that's sad and disturbing for this show's future.
Yes, but the show has always done that. Many times on this thread I've complained how they changed the plot seemingly for no other reason than to throw off the comic book audience. Which I find dumb because I think they are really overestimating the comic book's audience and if they are not as shocked as the non-comic book fans who cares? I don't see this latest episode being any different than any other episode or the start of some worrisome trend.
she's clearly a mashup of Holly (Abraham's mistress/new girl friend) and Andrea (her sniper skills). Negan kills Holly when she goes all Rambo to get revenge for Abraham and crashes a car through the gate of the Saviours compound, letting a horde of walker's in. Something I can see Sasha doing..
Completely agree with you. I see this playing out exactly.
I also see
Spoiler:
tara dying the way Denise does in the comics in her stead
Hulksmash wrote: Honestly I wish the death had happened last season, that we hadn't had the silly break Rick side quest (though I enjoyed Negan and Rick it was still kinda pointless), and they hadn't killed Abraham simply because he was a bit of light in a pretty dark show. Hopefully Negan, Jesus, and maybe Aaron can make up for some of that lost levity but man, it's going to be hard to beat "Mother Dick" or "Dolphin Smooth" deliveries done by Abraham.
Totally agreed on both counts.
I'm completely convinced that:
Abraham was 'let' to live past where his death was in the comic so he'd be available to be killed by Negan, thereby throwing the audience off for Glenn's death. I think the showrunners were afraid that if Negan killed a 'not as popular' new person (Aaron, Eugene, Sasha, etc) first, then the audience wouldn't think that death was worth the 6-month post-finale 'build-up', so they'd be instantly wary and expecting something else bad to happen. Since they didn't want to kill off any of the other 'core' characters (Rick, Carl, Michonne, & Daryl) this way, it had to be Abraham, just to make sure Glenn's subsequent death was a complete shock to most viewers.
This kind of thinking being used to guide a show however, is sooooo problematic. It shows that the creators are becoming way less okay with having a big twist in the comic simply play out in the show anymore. Instead, they're actually considering the fact that because people have read the comic, things that should be shocking to a TV audience, might not be, and they're twisting and contorting their stories to try to get the shocking twist back in there and play off of people's expectations from the comic book. This is the tail wagging the dog. Given that the showrunners have admitted that they more or less planned Glenn's death to happen here for over two years, it does mean that all the malarkey with him 'dying' under the dumpster was absolutely a way for them to twist the audience up as much as possible about Glenn's potential death (get extra ratings and buzz about fan favorite Glenn's death 2-3 times) as well as to kind of throw the audience off about him getting killed by Negan. I'm sure quite a few people thought (I heard people say this): 'There's no way they're going to have Negan kill Glenn now after all they just put him through.'
If I'm right, that means quite a few narrative decisions last season were mainly driven by the insane need to make the 'shocking' death of Glen on the TV show just as shocking as it was in the comic, and that's sad and disturbing for this show's future.
Yes, but the show has always done that. Many times on this thread I've complained how they changed the plot seemingly for no other reason than to throw off the comic book audience. Which I find dumb because I think they are really overestimating the comic book's audience and if they are not as shocked as the non-comic book fans who cares? I don't see this latest episode being any different than any other episode or the start of some worrisome trend.
I think the decision to go with the cliffhanger meant they wrote themselves into a corner, and forced them to half-waste an episode of a short season. HOWEVER...it's also a television show, and TV is a very formulaic and manipulative medium.
Thoughts on this week? I'm feel somewhat conflicted about the sudden shift much much more lighthearted tone. I also thought Ezekiel was actually a little annoying when he was "acting," but he seemed pretty likable when talking about his backstory and what not.
...Except I got weirded out when he showed up again at the end of the episode. Like, I don't want to be hearing any comic spoilers, but what is up with wanting Carol to try some fruit? Some sort of Persephone shenanigans?
Update: I also found the episode as a whole rather jarring; I kind of forget what show we're watching. And the (CGI?) tiger part really hurts my suspension of disbelief. Even in a world of zombies.
Ezekiel is annoying when in persona in the comics too. Sounds like an accurate adaptation.
I have no idea what you mean re carol and Persephone. Without giving any comic spoilers, her character arc is completely unrecognisable from the comics, almost as much as Andrea, so there's no real danger there.
Well, besides the mental breakdown she's been having since season 6. That sort of...mirrors what she went through in the comics, way back in the prison.
Spoiler:
I hope they're not going where I think they're going with Carol...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well that was a slightly disappointing episode...The promo for this episode showed Negan arriving at Alexandria, but all we got was the Kingdom. Next weeks promo looks like it'll just be about the Sanctuary and Daryl.
And yeah, this episode had a slight Shark Jumping whiff to it, so hopefully they rein in the Kingdom stuff moving forward.
I don't think it will get an entire episode all to itself again, at least.
Also agreed, now we probably have been spoon fed the important events of a whole episode, so the only new footage is going to feel like filler and make the episode as a whole less satisfying to watch.
On a side note, I do really like Jerry. I got a kick out of his cringy puns. New character I identify strongly with.
Ezekiel: Drink from the well, replenish the well.
Jerry: Well said!
*Everybody gives him a look that says, "Oh, Jerry, not this gak again!' *
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Ezekiel is annoying when in persona in the comics too. Sounds like an accurate adaptation.
I have no idea what you mean re carol and Persephone. Without giving any comic spoilers, her character arc is completely unrecognisable from the comics, almost as much as Andrea, so there's no real danger there.
Well, besides the mental breakdown she's been having since season 6. That sort of...mirrors what she went through in the comics, way back in the prison.
Spoiler:
I hope they're not going where I think they're going with Carol...
I'm not sure where you think it's going, but I think that (comic spoilers ahead)...
Spoiler:
...Carol will be picking up parts of comic Michonne's story. Figure that TV Michonne is spoken for, and TBH probably has her head screwed on better than comic Michonne ever did. Carol keeps trying to get away, so can't you see her getting on a boat and sailing away for a while post-All Out War? I don't see her story looping back to her comic counterpart's end. I don't think that'll ever happen with this character.
I guess I'm in the minority here, but I thought it was a strong episode. I get the tonal shift may have seemed jarring, but that WAS a good representation of Ezekiel and the Kingdom. And I thought the conversation between E & C did a good job grounding the episode. I liked that more than anyone to date, Ezekiel seems to understand Carol, with his "go but not go" solution providing a third way for Carol and probably exactly what she needs right now. Space.
Besides, a shift was necessary after the torture p**n episode last week. There are reasons for hope in their world...
I really enjoyed this episode. The more upbeat tone. The comparisons that kept getting drawn. Even the inspirational quotes painted up everywhere. I didn't think it jumped the shark. It's a bit comic booky to have a dude with a friggin tiger and fighting zombies from horseback seems stupid (just due to the cost of training cavalry and raising horses).
I liked the idea. That all leaders are characters. The fake it till you make it was particularly telling in conjunction with Morgan's protoge talking about how his dad died but how much more careful Ezekiel is now.
I thought it was an excellent episode. Not sure if it was an intentional choice by the director/actor to have Carol's innocent act come off over the top (maybe due to her stress or maybe playing to the "crowd" when meeting someone also so over the top in Ezekiel). I thought it was very well done. Also Morgan coming more to terms with who he is was worth it in itself.
We won't get a full episode of Kingdom again like we haven't gotten a full episode of Hilltop since it got introduced. They always seem to do a full introduction episode of new locations to give them depth.
Mr Morden wrote: Seemed to be a better version of Alexandria.- although if Rick and co go there - it will be destroyed like pretty much everywhere else they have been
I wouldn't count on it. This season is gonna be badass.
If they had stuck to the way the narrative arc of the last season should have been presented (with Negan's killings being the end of the last season), this episode would have been a fine, if not a tad bit slow, first episode to the new season.
sirlynchmob wrote: It was really just a rehash of the woodberry gimmick, except the foreshadowing was horrible, as subtle as here's a brick now hit yourself with it.
so next week will be the all saviors episode with special guest daryl, then they'll start moving forward and tying it all together.
I don't see the Kingdom at all being a rehash of Woddbury, because the central deal with Woodbury was that it looked idillic, but had a cancer at its heart (the Governor was severely damaged and completely manipulative).
With the Kingdom, Ezekial (at least for now), looks to be a fundamentally good person who is putting on a rather silly air to distract his group from the realities of the world...while they may all end up dying a horrible death, it won't likely be because of evil within, but rather because of conflict with the Saviors.
Ezekiel's not a complicated character...they effectively dumped his entire backstory into episode 2. I was surprised they did the whole "King Ezekiel is just an act" thing so early, because it came much later in the comics.
Thought it was a pretty uninspired episode myself.
No real tension or interest and too obvious they would have a "down time" episode after last weeks manicness.
They also seriously need to sort out Morgans character, motivations and general mojo - I actually like him as an idea but hes become tedious at this point. Also dont like seeing Carol lose here mojo (again).
My big fear now is next week they'll go back to more torture porn with Negans group (ala Bolton in GoT) and use the Kingdom as an excuse for a "break" when they need to zzzzz.
I did like Richards character however, hopefully he can replace Abraham in some form.
I liked that Morgan has finally realised that he was being a prat for a season or more and his dogmatic stupidity was getting people killed for no reason.
He does seem to be in search of a plot though but I would be happy to see him go down in the next conflict, but then I am more than bored with Rick as well - but that death is not going to happen.
Also the Kingdom does given them a whole load of new victims to kill off as they have pretty much exhausted NPCs in Alexandria and apart from Jesus and the leader - does anyone remember anyone at the Hilltop?
The show kinda relies on new places of "safety" that then get destroyed so our hero's can move on to new pastures.
I'd hope that things don't go so bad from here on out for the settlements, but drama's drama.
Spoiler:
At least in the comics every one of the sites are still active, including the Saviours. Sure people die, but they have bigger problems than each other down the line (...ignoring the current subplot between the Hilltop/ Saviours committing resources).
I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. Not having read the comic, I was groaning at the previews. But when Ezekiel laid it out to Carol, I liked that a lot. He is kind of an anti-Negan. The fact that he is actually an anchored dude who knows the score and has a plan was really cool. However, I strongly dislike Carol's turn. She went from pushover to badass back to stupid. It doesn't come across as PTSD or anything, just pointless regression for drama. At least Morgan is coming back to some sensibility.
jmurph wrote: I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. Not having read the comic, I was groaning at the previews. But when Ezekiel laid it out to Carol, I liked that a lot. He is kind of an anti-Negan. The fact that he is actually an anchored dude who knows the score and has a plan was really cool. However, I strongly dislike Carol's turn. She went from pushover to badass back to stupid. It doesn't come across as PTSD or anything, just pointless regression for drama. At least Morgan is coming back to some sensibility.
Ya, I liked it it as well. I don't see what there isn't to like, it moved the plot along introduced new characters and opened up the world. I also like this take on Ezekiel. You're right, the most annoying person in the show wasn't Ezekiel it was Carol by far.
She played her usual public self to the new people whilst she healed up. She nearly died at the same time as having a mental breakdown so maybe we should cut her some slack
Yeah, the point of Carol's current storyline is that she's an actual human being and not a robot, and all the gak she's done has come with a real cost to her soul.
Everyone's gone through a lot. I tired of multiple episodes covering the fact she wants to run away and die. It's pointless and annoying. Though its probably done now....she has a house and guy with a tiger.....
timetowaste85 wrote: So...last night was kinda twisted. I was 50/50 on Daryl cracking at the end, after he was given the photo of Glenn mashed to a pulp.
The smart thing to do would have been to kneel before Zod, err I mean Negan Play along, map the area, count the people, kill dwight
I actually think Daryl is making the right call. If he falls in line Negan is going to endlessly test him to make sure he's committed. Which means using him against his friends. He'll also just become another thug to Negan. Right now Negan is interested BECAUSE of how hard he is to break and his personality. Take that away and I don't think Daryl lasts a week as a Savior.
I enjoyed the episode. And now that we've seen how all "societies" currently in the show work we can start rolling forward with the plot.
Yeah, he finally showed showed remorse about Glenn about halfway through.
Interestingly, I feel this episode is really more about Dwight, especially his history with Negan. The Pet the Dog/Kick the Dog tropes seem to be very heavy. Ascended from lowly worker to right hand man? Gets to take gak from people whenever he feels like it? Yeah, Dwight has privilege, yet at the same time... Negan stole away his wife and uses her as incentive to work, rather mockingly? Dwight is becoming a more and more fleshed out character. I'm not a comic reader, but I feel like if Negan ever faces the music, he will be involved.
Definitely back on track with that episode. Good tension, well acted, great scene on the road with Dwight and the guy who wants to die.
Actually really liked the way they fleshed out D, hopefully they grow him more and he starts to build a relationship with Daryl and ultimately kick Negans ass
Time now for them to get back to Rick and see how his crew deal with things and move forward.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: He is far more of an arsehole than in the comics. Nobody was taken prisoner and subjected to torture in the comics.
Well I think it was implied by Dwights cool new burn pattern. They're just embellishing a bit, like they did with the governor and giving them a bit more of a back story.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: He is far more of an arsehole than in the comics. Nobody was taken prisoner and subjected to torture in the comics.
Yeah, I don't remember any kneeling, or that "I'm Negan" stuff either. This is a different take on Negan.
Comic Negan holds the Saviors together with fear, but also his charisma and smarts. Show Negan is more like a cult leader or something, with the brainwashing, etc. I don't think comic Negan would like show Negan very much, TBH.
They've also downplayed...
Spoiler:
how the Saviors operate like a protection racket, and actually provide some protection. Comic Negan is a businessman of sorts...if the business is organized crime, I guess.
Maybe they wanted to compare and contrast Sanctuary with the other communities in various ways, I dunno. Right now, it's a little hard to imagine...
Spoiler:
that show Negan will see the light regarding working together before Rick slashes him. Again, he seems more like a dictator/cult leader than a businessman at this point.
Don't know about the comics, but Dwight got some nice depth and I feel for the guy. He is surviving, but obviously has some deep seated conflict with Negan. It is interesting that at first he was all about killing Daryl, but I think he sees some of himself in him now.
Negan also seems to be in a perilous position. He can only maintain power so long as everyone below him fears him. It's a fine point on the pyramid. He seems to be acutely aware of this (hence his use of overwhelming force for punishment), but he also seems to have bought into his own BS grandstanding. Pretty typical charismatic strongman. It will be interesting to see what the tipping point that brings it to a head is. Certainly if the forces currently subjugated against him ever join and rise up, it will likely spell disaster for Negan's regime.
Please don't kill Negan AMC. He looks good in a cell. They've killed off major characters before - I mean Andrea FFS-, but we'll never experience his "date" with Alpha if you do.
I think AMC will follow the books fairly closely where he's concerned.
I just hope the TV series doesn't take as long as the comics do to get there!
As much as I liked Negan and the Saviour's arc in the comics, I agree. I'm hoping that the conclusion of AOW will be the Season 7 finale. One Season is enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw, did anyone else notice that one of the Saviours (the fat one who guards Daryl whilst Negan is speaking to Dwight)...has Rick's Revolver?
I think we'll see a season and a half of the Saviors. One season doesn't feel long enough with 4 locations to shoot and keep up with but 2 full seasons feels like to much. We'll just have to see.
Hulksmash wrote: I think we'll see a season and a half of the Saviors. One season doesn't feel long enough with 4 locations to shoot and keep up with but 2 full seasons feels like to much. We'll just have to see.
I agree.
Just look at the cliffhanger we got from season 6 to 7. I don't want to say too much for those who haven't read the comics, but I don't think they're going to end season 7 on the same note the Saviors storyline ended with in the comics.
Plus, having the conclusion of that arc at midseason of 8 also sets up an interesting return a few weeks later that will also have people talking. Then you can end season 8 on any number of notes from that next storyline.
Just out of curiosity, I'm curious to know just how much is covered in the comics. 7 seasons seems to have covered a lot of content, yet there's still more in the comics? How far in is the Saviors plot line? 80% of the way through comic content? 2/3 of the way through? Half way?
I wonder what happens when AMC finally does exhaust the comics.
KommissarKiln wrote: Just out of curiosity, I'm curious to know just how much is covered in the comics. 7 seasons seems to have covered a lot of content, yet there's still more in the comics? How far in is the Saviors plot line? 80% of the way through comic content? 2/3 of the way through? Half way?
I wonder what happens when AMC finally does exhaust the comics.
We are quite far into the comics but they have just time jumped years after a major conflict. I would say the TV show is about 75% through the comic story lines.
The current story line in the comic could be inserted into the show without he jump but it would make it very different.
We're at the start of the Saviors arc, which was one of the longest in the comics. They've only just been introduced.
Not really spoilers, but still:
Spoiler:
The comics focus on Rick uniting the settlements against the Saviors; struggling to shrug of their apathy. Fighting with the Saviors starts back up later on, and this all goes on for a while. There's a crossover to the Savior's perspective on occasion as well.
They did however miss a trick with the Saviors. In the comics they use melee weapons for much of the first arc. When Rick's group gets the confidence to make a larger attack they're repelled by gunfire. Negan laughs at them saying something like "we use melee weapons to fend off the dead, because they're so easy to kill. We're not idiots wasting the ammo, we keep that for people like you". Pity they wasted that moment.
Spoiler:
That and I want them to have the Savior's base like it was in the comics as well (i.e. with the wall of chained zombies). A possible spoiler for the show though, as is likely that's what their "real" base looks like; the one destroyed in the last season just being a smaller outpost.
As has been said there's a time skip of a few years in the comics after the Savior's arc. In the show they had a couple of months jump between Sanctuary and Alexandria though (they headed to the South first, then made a trek all the way from their to DC). This jump's fairly necessary in the comics arc, and it'd be a pity if they either show the developments in a shorter timeframe, or cut it out altogether (something similar happened with the prison as well, but on a smaller scale - with Rick having little farm in the second season there).
Maybe they'll cover Michonne's thing as padding between those seasons though.
Spoiler:
Could do with more time with all the guys who have their heads chopped off after the time skip too.
You know what? Screw Shane. I'm so upset about what happened to Otis that I'll never forgive him. Leaving him to a crowd of walkers who then took turns beating him with a barbed wire-wrapped baseball bat like that... Oops, I may have said too much already
She was pissed that the Saviors took all of their mattresses and then just burned them by the side of the road.
They did it just to make them uncomfortable at 'home' - they didn't need/want them themselves.
She's pissed at Rick for giving in/giving up - though Rick is right 'right now' - they're outnumbered - even though TV Show Rick and Company killed a TON of Saviors already...
I thought the episode was overly long and drawn out, and I was wondering why.
Then I thought...was it just so that the time could get past 10PM so Negan could deliver his infamous
Spoiler:
"I just slid my dick down your throat and you thanked me for it."
line, safely into 'mature audiences time' here in the USA?
Yes, thats my fear too.
We get it, they're broken but its time to ramp things up again.
Reedus must have been laughing - so on this shoot, you want me to just stand around looking broody and depressed? Ok!
Im hoping Gabriel finds a bit more mojo this series, not in a macho alpha male way but maybe in a more sneaky, coniving way like he did with the graves. Like out thinking Negans group a bit more.
First, they missed an opportunity for Carl to do his "serial killer" moment that they missed out from the execution scene (in the comics when Negan kills Glenn, Carl glares at Negan the entire time to the point that Negan notices and calls him a "future serial killer". He basically impresses Negan.). Which is very important foreshadowing for what Carl is going to do next (or did next in the comics, really hope they don't drop that too).
Second of all, they gave Rick's cool moment to Spencer! Fething Spencer?!
Spoiler:
In the Comics, Rick's partner Andrea (Michonne being the TV equivalent) is pissed off with Rick for being so submissive and starts to pack up and leave his house. Its at that point that Rick reveals to Michonne that its all an act, he's biding his time by keeping Negan happy only until Rick can find a way to fight back. He just needs everyone to believe it for the time being, especially his best fighters, so he can keep the peace until they're strong enough.
First, they missed an opportunity for Carl to do his "serial killer" moment that they missed out from the execution scene (in the comics when Negan kills Glenn, Carl glares at Negan the entire time to the point that Negan notices and calls him a "future serial killer". He basically impresses Negan.). Which is very important foreshadowing for what Carl is going to do next (or did next in the comics, really hope they don't drop that too).
Second of all, they gave Rick's cool moment to Spencer! Fething Spencer?!
Spoiler:
In the Comics, Rick's partner Andrea (Michonne being the TV equivalent) is pissed off with Rick for being so submissive and starts to pack up and leave his house. Its at that point that Rick reveals to Michonne that its all an act, he's biding his time by keeping Negan happy only until Rick can find a way to fight back. He just needs everyone to believe it for the time being, especially his best fighters, so he can keep the peace until they're strong enough.
Like I'm sure I've said in this thread before, the show is -- much more than the comic -- about the changing moods and mental states of Rick. This is probably because unlike some ink on a page, you have a star on the show that needs opportunities for ACTING to keep him interested. But IMO we're definitely seeing another shift back to 'weak Rick', where comic Rick is just a much stronger and consistent character overall.
Spoiler:
In the show, it seems that his circle will be the ones to push him to action. They've already made it clear that Maggie will be out for blood. I don't think we're going to get the admission that he's playing possum. I think he IS the possum right now.
I think they're getting there with Carl, though.
Regarding Spencer (comic spoiler ahead)...
Spoiler:
wasn't he supposed to meet his end during this visit? Maybe Negan will make a return engagement? I guess they have the rest of a season to fill, and it doesn't feel like all-out war is around the corner, especially with frightened kitten Rick...
Yes, he was supposed to die, when he asks Negan to kill Rick and appoint Spencer as Leader (Negan kills him for his cowardice).
I really thought they were setting that up right until the end, with him bitching to Rosita about Rick being a poor leader and him hiding the guns. Then when Negan left and Spencer confronted Rick, I was half expecting Rick to gut him.
I'm worried that they're going to give Carl's upcoming...adventure...to Spencer instead, what with Spencer being willing to fight unlike his comic counterpart.
It looks like they're doing that thing again where they follow the comics closely, but mix up the characters. (Cutting off Merle's hand instead of Rick, Andrea dieing early and Michonne replacing her, Denise getting the arrow to the head instead of Abraham etc).
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm worried that they're going to give Carl's upcoming...adventure...to Spencer instead, what with Spencer being willing to fight unlike his comic counterpart.
It looks like they're doing that thing again where they follow the comics closely, but mix up the characters. (Cutting off Merle's hand instead of Rick, Andrea dieing early and Michonne replacing her, Denise getting the arrow to the head instead of Abraham etc).
I think they're probably saving Spencer's arc as in the comics for later. Consider that
Spoiler:
after this meeting, did Rick and Negan get a lot of face-to-face time? I don't remember much at all. And again, because this is a TV show, they'll probably want to give these actors more opportunities to act with one another. So we're probably headed for another Negan visit later, at which point (after a growing Rick-Spencer feud) Spencer will say he wants to be leader. And then we'll see if Spencer has any guts.
Carl's little moment with Negan makes me think his arc will also take place, similar to the comics.
And Tara was the one who was pregnant IRL, not Maggie. I think that's the mixup.
I appreciated the episode. And I liked Gabriel pulling a fast one on Negan. I also had no idea they were burned mattresses at the end. Makes a lot more sense.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: He is far more of an arsehole than in the comics. Nobody was taken prisoner and subjected to torture in the comics.
Just watched it and that was my thought as well. This version of Negan and Dwight is much more evil than the comic version. Comic Negan was brutal no doubt but there was a fairness to him. He had his own code. In the comic I would say deep down underneath it all Negan does want to rebuild civilization even if he has to use iron fisted tactics to do it. I don't get that from TV Negan at all, this guy is just a total A-Hole. I think this version of the story is going to end up in a much different place than the comic did.
I'd point to out that I don't think Spencer is going g to fight. From everything I felt from the character it was a set up for him to be a traitor/turncoat.
Liked the episode but I'm done with Broken Rock again. I don't feel Daryl is broken but Rock has been here before and I don't need to see it again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd point to out that I don't think Spencer is going g to fight. From everything I felt from the character it was a set up for him to be a traitor/turncoat.
Liked the episode but I'm done with Broken Rock again. I don't feel Daryl is broken but Rock has been here before and I don't need to see it again.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: He is far more of an arsehole than in the comics. Nobody was taken prisoner and subjected to torture in the comics.
Just watched it and that was my thought as well. This version of Negan and Dwight is much more evil than the comic version. Comic Negan was brutal no doubt but there was a fairness to him. He had his own code. In the comic I would say deep down underneath it all Negan does want to rebuild civilization even if he has to use iron fisted tactics to do it. I don't get that from TV Negan at all, this guy is just a total A-Hole. I think this version of the story is going to end up in a much different place than the comic did.
Good episode - Negan was much much fun and got the infamous line in as well - nice.
Agreed - I also think its going to be quicker - Rick is all about the numbers - Hilltop is not enough but wtih the Kingdom - likely enough? Also it means that they have a shed load more non-names to use as canon fodder and keep the rest of the cast alive.
In the comics however they had not lost all their guns IIRC.
Spencer could go either way - he could try to be one of Negans crew - better life higher up. I am slightly missing why they covered up Maggie's move to hilltop - Negan is likely to go there anyway and previously showed no more interest in her than the other women. Yeah he mouthed off about ehr this episode but that was prodding Rick and they would not have known it was going to happen.
They covered it up because the need to keep her 'out of sight' as she's got NO interest in playing nice - she's out for blood.
It just also happened to work out as, apparently, Show Negan is so over the top that he had intended to add her to his harem/list of accomplishments?
Way over the top with him so far.
If they're trying to 'out do' comics Negan...OK?
But it isn't sustainable and it isn't believable - a character like that would eventually get whacked by one of his own, too fed up to put up with his crap anymore.
Comics Negan ran an iron fisted protection racket that at least made some sense - and they even mocked that angle in the show!
Yup, hes very one dimensional so far in the show.
I cant get his motivations at all barring being on over sexed, vicious thug with a huge ego.
A believable character in a post apocalyptic world? Maybe.
An interesting one however? Nope.
I hope they drop the alpha male BS with him and expand a bit more otherwise its a tedious characature inserted only to "break" Ricks group in liue of them making a comeback. Cheap plot writing.
Alpharius wrote: They covered it up because the need to keep her 'out of sight' as she's got NO interest in playing nice - she's out for blood.
It just also happened to work out as, apparently, Show Negan is so over the top that he had intended to add her to his harem/list of accomplishments?
Way over the top with him so far.
If they're trying to 'out do' comics Negan...OK?
But it isn't sustainable and it isn't believable - a character like that would eventually get whacked by one of his own, too fed up to put up with his crap anymore.
Comics Negan ran an iron fisted protection racket that at least made some sense - and they even mocked that angle in the show!
It sounds funny to say it, but it's really the complexities and subtleties of comic Negan that make the character work. Show Negan isn't showing any of that yet. It's like the veneer is Negan, but he's a different guy underneath. They also seem to be trying hard to establish Dwight as a major league jagoff, where as in the books he was this beaten-down, mopey, competent but kinda hapless guy.
However --
1) We presumably have plenty of time to get to know this Negan. Still, the whole cultlike angle he has going on is just weird and really, really different. Seems like we're only going to get more of that and not a pullback.
2) It's a TV show that plays to wide audiences, and the producers have shown that they'll go lowbrow or skip subtleties if they think it's best for ratings.
I shouldn't be surprised that they're going back to the 'broken Rick' well for the umpteenth time...but I kinda am.
I kind of predicted this would happen. The problem is the TV Governor was kind of like a cross between and Comic Governor and Comic Negan. That means TV Negan is going to....also be a cross between Comic Governor and Comic Negan. In fact I would say there's more of Comic Negan's personality and motivations in TV Governor and more of Comic Governor in TV Negan so far. TV Negan is constantly threatening to cut off people's limbs and just seems to want to want to cause suffering to his fellow man. (Total Comic Governor stuff).
There's been many scenes so far where I'm thinking why don't they just kill Negan? Like if Carl had just shot Negan in that house the whole thing would be over. The Saviors are just a cult of personalty that would fall apart instantly if he was killed. It's like that hospital were they killed the leader and everyone was just like "meh, hated her anyway.
I feel like with Rick's group having gotten so jaded and pre-emptive striking and murdering people in their sleep the producers had to make the Saviors horrible so that people still saw them as the bad guys.
I do hope we get a bit more depth into Negan. I love the portrayal but it currently is very one dimensional and after only seeing him for 45 minutes of screen time I'm wondering how he hasn't been knocked off yet.
Hulk has the right of it, methinks. Rick and Co. murder a TON of them in their sleep. Negan "only" killed Abe in retribution (Glenn was to teach Daryl a lesson, and was a separate act). Right now, brutal as it was compared to a quick incision in their sleep, Rick's team still performed a far larger amount of evil killings. We need "proof" that their actions were the actions of heroes, and not villains.
That might be right regarding them doubling down on EVIL.
Regarding why it seems like Negan should have been taken out by now, it's possible that (comic spoilers ahead):
Spoiler:
That's exactly what they want the audience to think. Maybe it's the writers bolding AND underlining the point to set up Dwight's actions later. Which seems like overkill to anyone who values subtlety. Dwight glaring at Negan and grinding his teeth should be more than enough. But they've also shown that they can be as subtle as a brick through a window with the writing. They still do big ratings, and they may feel it necessary to be coarser and more obvious in order to keep people tuning in.
TLDR; some folks in the audience aren't too bright and need to spoonfed.
timetowaste85 wrote: Hulk has the right of it, methinks. Rick and Co. murder a TON of them in their sleep. Negan "only" killed Abe in retribution (Glenn was to teach Daryl a lesson, and was a separate act). Right now, brutal as it was compared to a quick incision in their sleep, Rick's team still performed a far larger amount of evil killings. We need "proof" that their actions were the actions of heroes, and not villains.
That's true. It's hard to argue the Alexandrians didn't have this coming....
Yeah, gotta agree that Negan's shtick wore out for me pretty quick, and now I just find it to be really implausible that he always acts this way and has anybody willing to follow him. Hulk's point about the showrunners feeling the need to make Negan worse than what the Alexandrians did is a really good point, and probably true. Whatever the reason, it has made the saviors as a whole a LOT less interesting than they could/should be. I actually would have really liked for them to be kind of the flipside of the Governor...mainly they look terrible from the outside, but really they're just doing what they felt needed to be done to save society as a whole (which I gather is closer to how they are portrayed in the comics), wheres the Governor/Woodbury looked great from the outside, but had a rotten core.
Its too bad, because I would really like to see some interesting actual communities and politics portrayed in the show moving forward so it feels like there is a strange world being built rather than just Rick & Co. constantly destroying one group after the next. What I think the Saviors in the show really need is at least ONE lieutenant that hasn't been tortured/screwed over by Negan that isn't portrayed as a complete psycho. To believe the Saviors work as a group without someone killing Negan, we need to see someone who benefits from their organization. The closest we have is Diwght, but hes' a bad candidate because he left and returned to the group and therefore got a really harsh 'punishment', so even when seeing the group through his eyes, we're left wondering how the heck he can stand it. But I understand that doing this would mean humanizing Negan and making him less black and white as a villian, which is something the show seems to not want to do (probably for the reason Hulk pointed out).
---
As for why the Alexandrians don't just kill Negan when they get the chance: I still don't see that as a really viable strategy. There's no reason to believe that killing Negan wouldn't result in his policies being carried out and all of the Alexandrians being killed in retaliation before the Saviors figure out what to do next. Besides, the saviors clearly do have some kind of hierarchy, with Negan mentioning his 'right hand man' previously (and Dwight seeming to have some kind of special standing as well), so I don't think the death of Negan would necessarily spell the end of the Saviors. Instead, I think someone else would get to step up and take the mantle of 'Negan'...literally getting to call themselves that from then on, and probably using Lucille, etc. That's one of the advantages of having all the saviors call themselves Negan...that name become symbol which can simply be passed onto the next 'Negan' who becomes the leader.
Alpharius wrote: They covered it up because the need to keep her 'out of sight' as she's got NO interest in playing nice - she's out for blood.
It just also happened to work out as, apparently, Show Negan is so over the top that he had intended to add her to his harem/list of accomplishments?
Way over the top with him so far.
If they're trying to 'out do' comics Negan...OK?
But it isn't sustainable and it isn't believable - a character like that would eventually get whacked by one of his own, too fed up to put up with his crap anymore.
Comics Negan ran an iron fisted protection racket that at least made some sense - and they even mocked that angle in the show!
Hmm given that Negan could have have visted Hilltop at any point as part of a tribute tour keeping her out of sight is tricky - and he does not like secrets. its not yet clear if Negan follows the comics versions rules on women - no rape / physical coersion of women but there are indications he is similar. He offered to marry the kid sister and accepted sherries own offer rather than rape / marry her/them whatever despite both being low ranking members of the society , he did say to D that he can have "any woman as long as she says yes" and he was not happy when the one of his people manhandled the woman in charge of the armoury without apparent cause ( of course as soon as there is cause - well thats all fine). It would have been interesting to see how he would have reacted to the guy touching/harressing the young girl with the balloons - might have given us a bit of inisght into his "rules".
He did not just take a wife or wives which he is in absolutely a position to do and would be relitively normal in the sort of society he is building - its pretty similar to fuedal system that worked across the world from Europe to Japan for millenia. You have a "strong Man" and his warriors, they are supported by a slave/worker/serf class who have little to no rights, the more brutal followers are restrained a bit - they are best used against enemies. I Imagine his chosen followers are given quite a bit of leeway but only within the "rules" - ti will be tricky - you have got to keep them sacred of you but also happy with their lot - again keeping a serf class helps with this - as its - hey look you ain't these poor bastards, enjoy the perks.
He is doing nothing new or unproved to work in the real world. People will accept an awful lot to have at least some degree of safety and security - and thats what the show has commincated with the Kingdom and the Whole D/Sherrie deal.
Lastly I think he had to be harsh with the Alexandrians - they attacked his people, killed 30-40 of them without loss and made him look bad - thats when your subordinates take you out - not becuase you are harsh to them but because you look weak. The guy dealing with the Kingdom seemed relaxed with the whole thing and reasonable - it was just he had one of the more dickish "warriors" with him.
yakface wrote: I actually would have really liked for them to be kind of the flipside of the Governor...mainly they look terrible from the outside, but really they're just doing what they felt needed to be done to save society as a whole (which I gather is closer to how they are portrayed in the comics)
They don't really do that in the books. It's really just a straightforward protection racket...and one in which the Saviors DO provide protection. They take out the walkers so you can go produce. Which they've weirdly downplayed in the show.
In the books, Negan's racket -- although exploitative and grossly slanted in favor of him -- sorta represents a step up the developmental scale from the Governor. With Negan, there is a kind of exchange of goods and services going on between communities. The Governor, in comparison, was a simple despot. I think this is a very important point that's getting lost in the show right now.
Its too bad, because I would really like to see some interesting actual communities and politics portrayed in the show moving forward so it feels like there is a strange world being built rather than just Rick & Co. constantly destroying one group after the next.
All I'll say is maybe you shouldn't give up on the show just yet.
There's been many scenes so far where I'm thinking why don't they just kill Negan? Like if Carl had just shot Negan in that house the whole thing would be over. The Saviors are just a cult of personalty that would fall apart instantly if he was killed. It's like that hospital were they killed the leader and everyone was just like "meh, hated her anyway.
Except people also never do that sort of thing even in TV shows, by this point if they had killed Negan - the rest of his crew would merely have gone all out killing, raping and slaughtering and drove away happy - probably with a few surviving captives - the Saviours would then either imploded into civil war or a new Negan arose.
The Alexandrians might have even won if they had all been armed up but they were not and note that the Saviours came in armed to the teeth and ready to stamp down hard on anything. Negan is keeping his "warriors" them in check, he even let Carl off "this time".
Alpharius wrote: The Alexandrians could have had someone ready with the rocket launcher, hidden outside.
And some key snipers too.
Everyone armed and ready.
In shifts, waiting for it to come.
Because the 'showing up early' things was really quite predictable.
Anyway, quickly cap Negan, then blow up the guys all nicely clustered together.
Sure, Daryl gets collateral damaged right out of the story too...
But no!
Instead, another 10 episodes of mopey survivors and over the top saviors!
Yep they could have done all that but they needed someone to tell them to do it and hold them together when the saviours shot back - they don't have that - they have lost some of their best fighters - Abraham, Carole, The TV show has gone down the broken Rick route - so no leader, no preparation, no resistance.
Also the scenario above assumes that the Saviors are not watching the compound (which we know they are) and they can of course, when the plot requires, apparently turn all Ninja like.
The problem is that all the groups of bad guys are absolute psychopathic degenerates on the show, not just 'bad people'.
Negan needed to be different to show how Rick could have become, where a cult of personality can easily grow in lawless situations. But instead he's insane, which is a bummer, but I guess the show needed him to quickly be recognized as the bad guy the good guys have to fight.
It's *possible* that they walk Negan back from here, showing his smarts and plan. I'm not sure how effective that would be, however.
It's very disappointing that they aren't getting him quite right on the show, given how ridiculously dialed-in Kirkman is with that character. Just about every page Negan is in is gold.
I think Morgan is doing a perfectly fine job with the acting, but the writing is letting him down a bit. Funny that it's the TV version that could be described as 'cartoony'.
And the books actually do make you like Negan 'later on' after 'you know what' as well - and that's a pretty impressive feat.
I agree as well that Jeffrey Dean Morgan IS doing a good job presenting the Negan that the writers are giving him and us, but it is just that we wish it made more...sense?
It's all because Negan can't swear! This is a parallel dimension where no cussing is allowed and not being able to vent like that has driven Negan 100% completely insane!
it was OK. the fight scene at the hilltop seemed off to me. it didn't look or sound like previous battles.
and again with foreshadowing with a brick to the head. "I can think of who I'd want to lead us"
I thought carl should have went on his truck ride last week, instead of coming in from the hilltop. because the trucks form alexandria had more interesting toys.
As a comic reader who was expecting most of the events in this episode, pretty boring.
The most interesting thing I took away from this is that Carl and Jesus are going to the Sanctuary together. Thats thrown a wrench in the works - in the comics, they both made their separate way there.
[Not really a spoiler as this describes either past events that the show has skipped over or already adapted into something different.]
Spoiler:
(Dwight was captured and held as a prisoner when the Saviours attacked Alexandria in Rick's absence. Then Rick returns from the Hilltop after Glenn got his head bashed in, ordered Alexandria to release Dwight to the outrage of its residents, to honour the pact with Negan. And then Rick asks Jesus to follow Dwight back to the Saviour's home base.
Essentially, Rick decides to play possum in the comics and bide his time. The show on the other hand, has evidently decided to revert back to broken Rick, and they gave this particular 'strong Rick' moment to Maggie instead.
Is Jesus going to try to stop Carl doing what Carl is planning to do?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought carl should have went on his truck ride last week, instead of coming in from the hilltop. because the trucks form alexandria had more interesting toys.
I would have loved to see Carl get his hands on that rocket launcher.
Thought it was ok myself. Found the zombie attack a bit of "hey this episode needs something - chuck in a zombie fight?".
Interested in the Carl/Jesus angle, could be a cool if done right. Especially if the army girl is also going to attack Negan and Sashas planning something too.
Sort of like the assassin kill team going after Horus
I'd point out that Maggie doesn't know that Jesus is going g to the savior hq. Sasha sent him.
I'm not getting as broken Rick this time as last. I feel like it's just the numbers game doesn't work but once it does he'll be all in.
I didn't read this far in the comics so I thought it was a good episode. I liked how they highlighted the peoplease in hilltop already reacting to Maggie as a leader.
I was lucky enough to be drawn into the comics a couple of years back as a Savior and the same scene will be in the show at some point during the next couple of weeks so I am interested in seeing which TV Savior take my place.
The wiki page has me linked to the Savior of the same name so I wonder if it will be them.
Aeneades wrote: I was lucky enough to be drawn into the comics a couple of years back as a Savior and the same scene will be in the show at some point during the next couple of weeks so I am interested in seeing which TV Savior take my place.
The wiki page has me linked to the Savior of the same name so I wonder if it will be them.
That's cool, would have been cool if they used you as an extra in the show too.
That would have been amazing but I would never have expected them to do that due to legal issues with screen acting guild rules and visa issues. Charles Adlard was kind enough to give me the original sketch art which was a big enough bonus, I did try to buy the actual comic page art but one of the creators or editors had kept it.
Liked the Proto Negan and reinforced that simply killing the main man would not help - they would slaughter those who did it and then likely fall into civil war.
Amused by the ninja Zombie sneaking up on Enid on a bike and then Carl's stealth car doing the same. Good to see someone actually using bikes to get about.
I liked how they highlighted the peoplease in hilltop already reacting to Maggie as a leader.
I was disapointed by how little reaction we got from the people of Hilltop - just the dick leader and Jesus.
Also amusing how Rick adn co still have are not carrying any melee weapons with reach apart from Micholene - even after seeing the spears at hilltop.
It is more and more a post appoclaypse show with occassional zombies which is not a bad thing.
Mixed bag. Enid is still annoying, but at least less blatantly suicidal/dangerous. Carl still needs a haircut
I agree it seems to be rehashing broken Rick, which sucks, and Negan is coming across as a one dimensional jerk ass bad guy, which also sucks. Especially given how the Governor was more nuanced early on.
The Hilltop attack was kind of weird. Seems like a lot of effort and wasted resources. Nice to see Jesus get some screentime, but not sure how they are going to introduce Mags as a leader when she has to stay incognito.
Was never a reader of the comic but you couldn't escape the Negan hype during the past few seasons. I think the actor who plays him is very talented, but he (and many other characters) are being let down by shoddy writing. Examples being Morgan and Carol constantly going 180 degrees and then back again, killer, pacifist, killer, pacifist... The season is moving at a snails pace, the extended premiere was disappointing and IMO the show hasn't really picked up the pace at all since. Episode 5 was basically just episode 4 but set in the Hilltop instead of Alexandria, more of the same - survivors cowering while the Saviors act menacing and play pointless psychological games. I understand they might still believe Alexandria has some resistance left but the Saviors know they broke the Hilltop a long time ago, why torment them further? Seems very counterproductive. Some good stuff this week from Jesus, Enid and Carl. Maggie and Sasha have been the height of tedium for over a season now, I was hoping we'd say goodbye to at least one of them in the premiere. They get a lot of screen time for what amounts to almost no character development, meanwhile interesting characters languish in the background - Aaron and Eric have had maybe 2 lines in 5 episodes, Eugene is barely even seen. I think Dwight, Sherry and Rosita have some real promise this season but I also doubt they'll all live to see season 8.
Another issue I have with the writing is it's becoming more difficult to suspend my disbelief at some of the situations the characters end up in. Take Daryl, Rosita, Michonne and Glenn being captured by the Saviors. Here we have 3 members of Ricks inner circle and Rosita, who has proven to be a highly capable survivor herself, engaging in a vocal argument in the woods, nobody keeps watch all the attention is on the argument. We're years into the apocalypse now, rookie mistakes like this should not be happening. Of course, in this particular grove of trees there's a group of Saviors (surprise) led by none other than Daryl's friend Dwight... Who also ambushed them the previous week in basically the exact same scenario! How unconvincing... Next are the defenses at Alexandria. No towers, limited ramparts, it seems they almost never have anyone on watch. The first sign that the Saviors had arrived in episode 4 was Negan knocking on the gate... A decent perimeter could have annihilated Negan and a huge amount of his crew in seconds, sure Daryl was with them but the Alexandrians wouldn't have known that.
Honestly the way the Saviors were handled has made me lose a lot of interest in the show, they're just being shoehorned in everywhere my eyes get tired from rolling back so often. Aaron had been regularly searching for other communities to trade with, wandering all the way into Virginia to find Ricks group and yet somehow missing both the Hilltop and the Sanctuary. Jesus said he could get Rick to Hilltop from Alexandria "in half a day", but this week we see that Hilltop is actually within a few hours walk of Alexandria, the Sanctuary is apparently 6 miles from Hilltop so another few hours walk, tops. How did he miss not only these communities but also the roving bands of Saviors, of which there appear to be many separate groups. Now that the cat is out of the bag the Saviors seem to be everywhere all the time. Every time a character leaves their community they encounter Saviors like clockwork. Last season the Saviors folded like wet cardboard in every encounter, now they're this unstoppable horde. Wut?
IMO Fear TWD has been much more entertaining this year than the original.
MarsNZ wrote: Was never a reader of the comic but you couldn't escape the Negan hype during the past few seasons. I think the actor who plays him is very talented, but he (and many other characters) are being let down by shoddy writing. Examples being Morgan and Carol constantly going 180 degrees and then back again, killer, pacifist, killer, pacifist... The season is moving at a snails pace, the extended premiere was disappointing and IMO the show hasn't really picked up the pace at all since. Episode 5 was basically just episode 4 but set in the Hilltop instead of Alexandria, more of the same - survivors cowering while the Saviors act menacing and play pointless psychological games. I understand they might still believe Alexandria has some resistance left but the Saviors know they broke the Hilltop a long time ago, why torment them further? Seems very counterproductive. Some good stuff this week from Jesus, Enid and Carl. Maggie and Sasha have been the height of tedium for over a season now, I was hoping we'd say goodbye to at least one of them in the premiere. They get a lot of screen time for what amounts to almost no character development, meanwhile interesting characters languish in the background - Aaron and Eric have had maybe 2 lines in 5 episodes, Eugene is barely even seen. I think Dwight, Sherry and Rosita have some real promise this season but I also doubt they'll all live to see season 8.
Another issue I have with the writing is it's becoming more difficult to suspend my disbelief at some of the situations the characters end up in. Take Daryl, Rosita, Michonne and Glenn being captured by the Saviors. Here we have 3 members of Ricks inner circle and Rosita, who has proven to be a highly capable survivor herself, engaging in a vocal argument in the woods, nobody keeps watch all the attention is on the argument. We're years into the apocalypse now, rookie mistakes like this should not be happening. Of course, in this particular grove of trees there's a group of Saviors (surprise) led by none other than Daryl's friend Dwight... Who also ambushed them the previous week in basically the exact same scenario! How unconvincing... Next are the defenses at Alexandria. No towers, limited ramparts, it seems they almost never have anyone on watch. The first sign that the Saviors had arrived in episode 3 was Negan knocking on the gate... A decent perimeter could have annihilated Negan and a huge amount of his crew in seconds, sure Daryl was with them but the Alexandrians wouldn't have known that.
Honestly the way the Saviors were handled has made me lose a lot of interest in the show, they're just being shoehorned in everywhere my eyes get tired from rolling back so often. Aaron had been regularly searching for other communities to trade with, wandering all the way into Virginia to find Ricks group and yet somehow missing both the Hilltop and the Sanctuary. Jesus said he could get Rick to Hilltop from Alexandria "in half a day", but this week we see that Hilltop is actually within a few hours walk of Alexandria, the Sanctuary is apparently 6 miles from Hilltop so another few hours walk, tops. How did he miss not only these communities but also the roving bands of Saviors, of which there appear to be many separate groups. Now that the cat is out of the bag the Saviors seem to be everywhere all the time. Every time a character leaves their community they encounter Saviors like clockwork. Last season the Saviors folded like wet cardboard in every encounter, now they're this unstoppable horde. Wut?
IMO Fear TWD has been much more entertaining this year than the original.
Wow, has Fear the Walk Dead actualy become watchable after the truely dire first season!?
Lots of good points - Alexandria in the show has always been massively out of place in the world and made zero sense.
Ignoring Aeron and Eric was a shame but I guess they are not main cast so lucky they are still alive thus far.
I thought the small group of Saviours that captured Maggie, Carol and co would have been interesting characters and less black and white than who we have left.
Savious - like bad guys in most shows fluctuate from awesomely brilliant at everything to laughably inept depending on the plot requirements.
the saviors went after the hilltop because the outpost in charge of them were the ones rick killed. the saviors found alexandria and have been watching it. Negans no fool, anyone could have put that connection together. they captured rick because they knew he was heading to the hilltop. They might not have known why they were making this trip, but it was obvious the two groups were connected. So the hilltop needed reminding of their place in life, to ignore the hilltop and not punish them would only lead to more defiance from them.
I can't stand Fear TWD, I really just want all the cast to die and watching them wander around as zombies would be more entertaining to me.
Wow, has Fear the Walk Dead actualy become watchable after the truely dire first season!?
Just my opinion, I know I'm in the minority but I actually quite liked both seasons. Seeing the apocalypse unfold rather than having the main protagonist wake up partway through was quite cool, sure it rehashed a lot of zombie fiction tropes but s1 of TWD was guilty of the same - hide in shopping mall, camp at quarry, flee to overrun government facility etc. The fact that the characters aren't cops/army and therefore aren't carrying an arsenal of firearms from day 1 is nice. Speaking of the army it was good to see the government response to the crisis, instead of showing abandoned military bases. I like that the protagonists quickly understood the reality that Rick took years to realise, the dead are only the secondary threat. I also like that they aren't struggling trying to be Good-Guy-Grimes in a world that really is just various different shades of evil. They also only take 2 episodes to realise that everyone turns, instead of 2 seasons.
Season 2 of Fear is light-years ahead of the snoozefest that was season 2 of TWD.
sirlynchmob wrote: the saviors went after the hilltop because the outpost in charge of them were the ones rick killed.
If they had known the Hilltop was involved they would also have known that the outpost demanded Gregory's head, and yet they weren't phased by being greeted by Gregory.
Wow, has Fear the Walk Dead actualy become watchable after the truely dire first season!?
Just my opinion, I know I'm in the minority but I actually quite liked both seasons. Seeing the apocalypse unfold rather than having the main protagonist wake up partway through was quite cool, sure it rehashed a lot of zombie fiction tropes but s1 of TWD was guilty of the same - hide in shopping mall, camp at quarry, flee to overrun government facility etc. The fact that the characters aren't cops/army and therefore aren't carrying an arsenal of firearms from day 1 is nice. Speaking of the army it was good to see the government response to the crisis, instead of showing abandoned military bases. I like that the protagonists quickly understood the reality that Rick took years to realise, the dead are only the secondary threat. I also like that they aren't struggling trying to be Good-Guy-Grimes in a world that really is just various different shades of evil. They also only take 2 episodes to realise that everyone turns, instead of 2 seasons.
Season 2 of Fear is light-years ahead of the snoozefest that was season 2 of TWD.
Season 2 of TWD was also dire - very bad.
I had trouble finding a single character I liked in FTWD - the sister of the self obsessed, drug addict kid was Ok I guess but the rest I had no interest or empathy with.
Wow, has Fear the Walk Dead actualy become watchable after the truely dire first season!?
Just my opinion, I know I'm in the minority but I actually quite liked both seasons. Seeing the apocalypse unfold rather than having the main protagonist wake up partway through was quite cool, sure it rehashed a lot of zombie fiction tropes but s1 of TWD was guilty of the same - hide in shopping mall, camp at quarry, flee to overrun government facility etc. The fact that the characters aren't cops/army and therefore aren't carrying an arsenal of firearms from day 1 is nice. Speaking of the army it was good to see the government response to the crisis, instead of showing abandoned military bases. I like that the protagonists quickly understood the reality that Rick took years to realise, the dead are only the secondary threat. I also like that they aren't struggling trying to be Good-Guy-Grimes in a world that really is just various different shades of evil. They also only take 2 episodes to realise that everyone turns, instead of 2 seasons.
Season 2 of Fear is light-years ahead of the snoozefest that was season 2 of TWD.
sirlynchmob wrote: the saviors went after the hilltop because the outpost in charge of them were the ones rick killed.
If they had known the Hilltop was involved they would also have known that the outpost demanded Gregory's head, and yet they weren't phased by being greeted by Gregory.
My impression was that Carl drove himself and Enid most of the way until the car broke down or something.
I figured they walked after Carl stacked the car trying to show off to Enid.
but we really didn't see the military's response, they were winning and keeping the zombies at bay, then just went F it, took off and napalmed the place. They also decide to up and skip 2 weeks of the initial outbreak, which would have been the part I was more interested in.
it's hard to say what all information gets passed onto negan, but that whole sequence went down in a day. morning show up at the hilltop and stab the mayor, that night rick and company kill all of them. so negan might not have been aware of the asking for greg's head part, but when the outpost didn't deliever negans share, someone would investigate and realize all of them were dead and the weapons gone. The search of hilltop might also have been them making sure the hilltop didn't get any of the weapons.
Even if negan did know and was the one who wanted gregs head. It wouldn't be that surprising to see him alive after the events that happened.
they roller skated after the car, so that probably helped carl & enid get there faster.
I had trouble finding a single character I liked in FTWD - the sister of the self obsessed, drug addict kid was Ok I guess but the rest I had no interest or empathy with.
I couldn't agree more about TWD s2. I know S04E12 "Still" is often regarded as the worst episode ever but I can think of half a dozen episodes from season 2 that were IMO much worse.
My favourite from FTWD s1 was Daniel the former torturer from El Salvador. He saw the apocalypse for what it was almost instantly. Another thing I like about Fear is that it is one of the few zombie setting that aren't based wholly in the USA, the Mexico setting is quite refreshing. Yeah, 28 days/weeks is in the UK but that's a whole different type of zombie and one I'm not that interested in.
sirlynchmob wrote: but we really didn't see the military's response, they were winning and keeping the zombies at bay, then just went F it, took off and napalmed the place. They also decide to up and skip 2 weeks of the initial outbreak, which would have been the part I was more interested in.
it's hard to say what all information gets passed onto negan, but that whole sequence went down in a day. morning show up at the hilltop and stab the mayor, that night rick and company kill all of them. so negan might not have been aware of the asking for greg's head part, but when the outpost didn't deliever negans share, someone would investigate and realize all of them were dead and the weapons gone. The search of hilltop might also have been them making sure the hilltop didn't get any of the weapons.
Even if negan did know and was the one who wanted gregs head. It wouldn't be that surprising to see him alive after the events that happened.
It showed a lot more of the military than TWD did, which amounted to abandoned hospitals and a handful of Nat.Guard getting slaughtered like lambs by the Governor. Fear showed the attempt to control the rioting population, the decision to euthanise survivors wholesale rather than risk them turning, the completely hopeless medical response, and the eventual breakdown of discipline and collapse of any organised effort. Not really sure what else you wanted to see.
Just my opinion though. Like I said I know I'm in the minority even though a lot of the criticism Fear gets seems to simply amount to "I don't like it" with very little elaboration.
The Saviors have been shown to be in constant contact via CB radio, Negan is informed of the escapee from the Sanctuary immediately. They would have known what was going on. The first time Dwight ambushes Daryl (demise of Denise) the Saviors had no idea where Alexandria was, Dwight demanded they take him there before Eugene sampled some sausage. I don't see how you figured that Alexandria was under surveillance. The Hilltop/outpost sequence actually starts at least 24 hours before you claim, as the Saviors were retaliating to what they saw as a light delivery - something I'm sure Negan would have been told about.
Also they were skating at barely walking speed. It's a moot point though, Enid walks to the gas station, Carl stacks the car, and they still arrive at the Hilltop by afternoon.
So...Oceanside has been introduced, an entire Season before I expected. That was a surprise.
Though I think we probably won't see them again this Season. Its just laying down some groundwork for next season, like the Season 3 episode 'Clear' when Morgan was brought back for one episode then we didn't see him again until Season 6.
Based on the promo and what I know happens next in the comics, I'm expecting the next episode to be somewhat action packed. Though they've repeatedly used misleading promos with footage that doesn't appear in the next episode but rather several episodes later. Its becoming very annoying.
I do not think this last episode will help TWD's rating's slide, that's for sure!
Pretty boring episode overall. Like I've been saying, I was hoping for explorations of a few really interesting, nuanced new communities this season. Instead I feel like they're just giving us a bunch of one-note, one-dimensional communities instead.
Here's hoping that next week's focus on the Saviors fixes this a bit, but I'm really just expecting for them to continue down the road of the Saviors being the simplistic 'big bad guys' that Carl and Jesus are trying to take down (or more likely just be caught and tortured by).
I do not think this last episode will help TWD's rating's slide, that's for sure!
Pretty boring episode overall. Like I've been saying, I was hoping for explorations of a few really interesting, nuanced new communities this season. Instead I feel like they're just giving us a bunch of one-note, one-dimensional communities instead.
Here's hoping that next week's focus on the Saviors fixes this a bit, but I'm really just expecting for them to continue down the road of the Saviors being the simplistic 'big bad guys' that Carl and Jesus are trying to take down (or more likely just be caught and tortured by).
Agreed!
They continue to go for the "Shock" too with the lame Heath fakeout too... ugh!
However the cute gun bunny finally told Eugene some home truths - 2 Seasons late.
Yeah she's cute but she was dead wrong. Eugene correctly surmised that even if she did manage to kill Negan someone would pay the cost, and with the Saviours that usually means someone other than the perpetrator. Rosita just stamps her feet, gets insanely personal, and carries on endangering everyone in the community. Two seasons ago Eugene was dead weight, now he's probably one of the most valuable individuals in terms of skillset in the entire show.
Good episode compared with the bottlerockets over the last month. Not sure why they had to compartmentalize everyone's story into individual 45 minute packages like that.
However the cute gun bunny finally told Eugene some home truths - 2 Seasons late.
Yeah she's cute but she was dead wrong. Eugene correctly surmised that even if she did manage to kill Negan someone would pay the cost, and with the Saviours that usually means someone other than the perpetrator. Rosita just stamps her feet, gets insanely personal, and carries on endangering everyone in the community. Two seasons ago Eugene was dead weight, now he's probably one of the most valuable individuals in terms of skillset in the entire show.
Good episode compared with the bottlerockets over the last month. Not sure why they had to compartmentalize everyone's story into individual 45 minute packages like that.
I meant that he is a useless coward, a dead weight and more importantly had sacrificed dozens of people to keep himself alive by lying to them all without any consequence.
Now Eugene has shown he has a skill that would actually be useful he might be able to try and pay back the dead. Of course he has to follow through rather than lumber around moaning about stuff.
Amusing the way the scavengers take the smallest possible knives when out and about in zombieland
Dozens is a pretty sizeable exaggeration. He was instrumental in the defeat of Dwight on the railroad track, is a competent and intelligent scavenger (discovered the special seeds in s6, highlights potentially valuable sites ahead of time) and was willing to drive off alone to lure away the huge army of saviors in the s6 finale. That's apart from the absolutely huge skill of producing ammunition the value of which is difficult to overstate. He was a coward, yes, but that's just not accurate anymore. Would you classify Olivia as a coward? Her sole contribution is inventory control at the pantry/armoury, a task in which she proved to be semi-competent at best, and she barely holds herself together at the first sign of a savior. I'd say she qualifies as dead weight far more than my man 'Gene.
Show me a character on the show today whose life hasn't been maintained at the expense of someone elses. The first big conflict of the Alexandria arc was basically Rick hypothesizing how many Alexandrians would have to die before they could consider being a community together.
The scavengers activities outside the walls are the most frustrating thing about this show. Tiny knives, no maps, no compass, frequent (loud) vocal domestic disagreements, perimeter? what's that? unlimited fuel supply, derelict cars still turn over every time.
After how long and having to be dragged out to the location and browbeaten into doing it. He has been a waste of space for months - now he might actually step up and provide something.
Dozens is a pretty sizeable exaggeration. He was instrumental in the defeat of Dwight on the railroad track, is a competent and intelligent scavenger (discovered the special seeds in s6, highlights potentially valuable sites ahead of time) and was willing to drive off alone to lure away the huge army of saviors in the s6 finale. That's apart from the absolutely huge skill of producing ammunition the value of which is difficult to overstate. He was a coward, yes, but that's just not accurate anymore. Would you classify Olivia as a coward? Her sole contribution is inventory control at the pantry/armoury, a task in which she proved to be semi-competent at best, and she barely holds herself together at the first sign of a savior. I'd say she qualifies as dead weight far more than my man 'Gene.
Show me a character on the show today whose life hasn't been maintained at the expense of someone elses. The first big conflict of the Alexandria arc was basically Rick hypothesizing how many Alexandrians would have to die before they could consider being a community together.
The scavengers activities outside the walls are the most frustrating thing about this show. Tiny knives, no maps, no compass, frequent (loud) vocal domestic disagreements, perimeter? what's that? unlimited fuel supply, derelict cars still turn over every time.
How many people did Abraham say died protecting Eugene - when he specifically lied to protect himself - watching people die to keep him alive and safe and the only consequence was a single punch in the face. Its not until now anyone even said anything.
Producing Ammunition - which until now he did not do - because? - he moped about did sweet FA, failed to learn how to defend himself etc etc. Apparently it takes about 2 mins to do (is that right?) and he refused to - why?
Olivia did not drag a load of people across zombieland, sacrificing them left right and centre to keep him alive. He should be paying that sarcfice back - if he starts a proper manufacturing process then he is - but until now he did nothing. He found exactly one special site.
Yeah the Scavenging is hilariously bad, one of the worst bits in the show apart form the pacing.
Producing Ammunition - which until now he did not do - because? - he moped about did sweet FA, failed to learn how to defend himself etc etc. Apparently it takes about 2 mins to do (is that right?) and he refused to - why?
1). Because until recently, Alexandria had a massive armoury of weapons and ammunition. They simply didn't need any more ammo, until their armoury was confiscated by the Saviours.
2). Eugene initially refused to cooperate because he (correctly) thinks its suicide. Rosita has one bullet. ONE. A bullet thats probably poorly made and defective - we don't even know yet if the bullet works. And she's made it quite clear that she intends to take a potshot at Negan, at which point the Saviours will enact a vicious revenge on the rest of Alexandria whether she succeeds in killing Negan or not.
Eugene is right - one bat gak insane chick with a single small calibre bullet and a death wish will not defeat the Saviours, they need to organise and plan and recruit an army.
3). And no, it does not take 2 min to do, thats simply the show compressing time for brevity.
After how long and having to be dragged out to the location and browbeaten into doing it. He has been a waste of space for months - now he might actually step up and provide something.
This is unfair to Eugene. Prior to Abraham and Glenn's execution, he was actually becoming much more active and starting to pull his weight, even fighting Walkers himself, and travelling outside the walls of Alexandria alone (he argued with Abraham and they split up. Eugene didn't panic at the prospect of returning alone). And on the day they were captured by the Saviours, he actually volunteered to be a decoy - he drove the RV off alone in a different direction to lure away the Saviours and let Rick and co. escape through the woods. That took balls. Clearly his confidence was growing and he was becoming stronger.
Abraham and Glenns' executions crushed his newfound confidence and was a massive setback for his character development. Compared to how poorly Rick is coping, I think Eugene can be forgiven.
Producing Ammunition - which until now he did not do - because? - he moped about did sweet FA, failed to learn how to defend himself etc etc. Apparently it takes about 2 mins to do (is that right?) and he refused to - why?
Because he needed more than just the knowledge, he needed the machinery. He was the one that had surmised where the required machinery was and took Abraham there to check it out. That's a second crucial discovery which the survivors would have been completely ignorant about if not for Eugene - A stable source of food, and then ammunition. Not bad. The 2 minutes thing gives your argument that shotgun approach, fire out enough pellets and hope something hits. Time-skips have been a part of television since forever, it obviously took longer to manufacture.
Olivia didn't drag anyone into zombieland true, but she's never actually been outside the walls herself. Every meal, any medication she's ever needed, the wall itself, she owes to others many of whom died to secure those items. She also has the easiest job in Alexandria apart from Judith, and she doesn't even do that very well. Eugene might not be great with a machete, but I've never seen Olivia armed at all. For the record Olivia is just an example, I don't consider her dead weight, but if Eugene qualifies then Olivia most certainly does as well.
Producing Ammunition - which until now he did not do - because? - he moped about did sweet FA, failed to learn how to defend himself etc etc. Apparently it takes about 2 mins to do (is that right?) and he refused to - why?
1). Because until recently, Alexandria had a massive armoury of weapons and ammunition. They simply didn't need any more ammo, until their armoury was confiscated by the Saviours.
2). Eugene initially refused to cooperate because he (correctly) thinks its suicide. Rosita has one bullet. ONE. A bullet thats probably poorly made and defective - we don't even know yet if the bullet works. And she's made it quite clear that she intends to take a potshot at Negan, at which point the Saviours will enact a vicious revenge on the rest of Alexandria whether she succeeds in killing Negan or not.
Eugene is right - one bat gak insane chick with a single small calibre bullet and a death wish will not defeat the Saviours, they need to organise and plan and recruit an army.
3). And no, it does not take 2 min to do, thats simply the show compressing time for brevity.
After how long and having to be dragged out to the location and browbeaten into doing it. He has been a waste of space for months - now he might actually step up and provide something.
This is unfair to Eugene. Prior to Abraham and Glenn's execution, he was actually becoming much more active and starting to pull his weight, even fighting Walkers himself, and travelling outside the walls of Alexandria alone (he argued with Abraham and they split up. Eugene didn't panic at the prospect of returning alone). And on the day they were captured by the Saviours, he actually volunteered to be a decoy - he drove the RV off alone in a different direction to lure away the Saviours and let Rick and co. escape through the woods. That took balls. Clearly his confidence was growing and he was becoming stronger.
Abraham and Glenns' executions crushed his newfound confidence and was a massive setback for his character development. Compared to how poorly Rick is coping, I think Eugene can be forgiven.
1) So he didn't bother because he is lazy and assumed that others had done his work for him. He should have said, no I can do this and more importantly I can show others how to do it. We can then trade it maybe even the skills with other groups - like hill top - remember the whole we have nothing to trade and they have no ammo. Did he suggest anything like that - nope.
2) So its suicide to make a bullet - but as usual he took the easy way out and did it anyway - did he think that rather than risking lives scavenging that the Saviours would be happy with a supply of bullets if they are actually knuckling down to serve them. It may not be a good plan but its something - maybe save some lives and not just Eugenes for once. Rosita is angry - just like Carl and Micholene and others - arguably Carl was far more stupid than Rosita (cool sequence though). She has not done anything yet!
Eugne does not seem to care that the bullet might not work - after all he is not firing it.
3) It obviously not hard to repurpose bullets in the Walking dead universe - but again previously but he just could not bothered to use these oh so important skills - because?
So, Negan seems to have a child complex. Yet despite his many wives, no children. Now he has a boy who he sees as a total potential badass (a chip off the ol' block) and a baby. Interesting.
At first, I thought it was dumb that Negan is fawning on Carl after making it so clear how he can't tolerate not following the rules. But this episode did a pretty good job as setting up a plausible reason why. It also allowed him a shade of humanity, which is definitely a good thing.
jmurph wrote: So, Negan seems to have a child complex. Yet despite his many wives, no children. Now he has a boy who he sees as a total potential badass (a chip off the ol' block) and a baby. Interesting.
At first, I thought it was dumb that Negan is fawning on Carl after making it so clear how he can't tolerate not following the rules. But this episode did a pretty good job as setting up a plausible reason why. It also allowed him a shade of humanity, which is definitely a good thing.
Feth Rosita. Stupid idiot going off half cocked with a single bullet...and she hits the fething bat??? She threw away Alexandria's one big advantage - the ability to make bullets. And what's worse - she handed that advantage over to the Saviours.
Me and my GF were hoping Rosita would be the one to get Luciled in the premiere, since she was the most useless and most annoying.
We were a few weeks behind but got caught up this weekend. I have a theory that all of these new settlements they keep showing.. they're setting it up where Alexandria is gonna end up teaming up the Hilltop, Kingdom, Tara's Nuns with Guns and do an all out war with the saviors in the final season. Neegan will die horribly, but not after doing a crapton of damage first. Toss up over who kills him.. Rick, Carl, Dwight or Dwayne. But I have a feeling they're setting up Dwayne to pull a noble sacrifice kind of move in the end, so one of Rick's crew can get the kill.
I thought Eugene was going to get the bat for a moment there. Negan was clearly tempted.
If anyone is dead weight right now, its Rosita not Eugene. They need to be smart in how they go about fighting Negan, not recklessly going off half cocked trying to assassinate Negan and fight dozens of Saviours with a single bullet. What did she think was going to happen? She failed to kill Negan, and one person was executed. If she had succeeded, she would would have provoked a gunfight in the streets, only one side has no guns. The entire town would have been massacred.
If the dumb b**** had kept that gun and bullet hidden and kept a cool head, Eugene could have been making bullets by the crate by the time the war starts.
We were a few weeks behind but got caught up this weekend. I have a theory that all of these new settlements they keep showing.. they're setting it up where Alexandria is gonna end up teaming up the Hilltop, Kingdom, Tara's Nuns with Guns and do an all out war with the saviors in the final season.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Feth Rosita. Stupid idiot going off half cocked with a single bullet...and she hits the fething bat??? She threw away Alexandria's one big advantage - the ability to make bullets. And what's worse - she handed that advantage over to the Saviours.
Well, although how Eugene ended up with the Saviors is different, it can basically follow the books from here on out.
Spoiler:
He's gotta have a very important conversation with someone at Sanctuary, right?
Necros wrote: Me and my GF were hoping Rosita would be the one to get Luciled in the premiere, since she was the most useless and most annoying.
We were a few weeks behind but got caught up this weekend. I have a theory that all of these new settlements they keep showing.. they're setting it up where Alexandria is gonna end up teaming up the Hilltop, Kingdom, Tara's Nuns with Guns and do an all out war with the saviors in the final season. Neegan will die horribly, but not after doing a crapton of damage first. Toss up over who kills him.. Rick, Carl, Dwight or Dwayne. But I have a feeling they're setting up Dwayne to pull a noble sacrifice kind of move in the end, so one of Rick's crew can get the kill.
So....the Spencer bit was pretty well ported over. Quite enjoyed it.
Rosita...man, the hot chick royally screwed the pooch. And fatty mcflubber-butt in the Z-pocalypse (seriously, how was it even POSSIBLE for her to be fat?!) died for Rosita's stupidity.
Curious about the man at the boat.
Determined/decided Enid is just a Sophia standin. No more, no less.
Man, Negan looks like Tony Stark once he's all shaved up!!
timetowaste85 wrote: So....the Spencer bit was pretty well ported over. Quite enjoyed it.
Rosita...man, the hot chick royally screwed the pooch. And fatty mcflubber-butt in the Z-pocalypse (seriously, how was it even POSSIBLE for her to be fat?!) died for Rosita's stupidity.
Curious about the man at the boat.
Determined/decided Enid is just a Sophia standin. No more, no less.
Man, Negan looks like Tony Stark once he's all shaved up!!
The whole Spencer scene was brilliant. Are we down to about 3 -4 people left in Alexandra who were there pre-Rick?
Rosita did just watch a guy she been sleeping with get brutally gutted - and that's the second guy she was involved with that Negan has killed in quick succession so I think it was stupid but understandable.
Also Carl was the one who went on a killing spree and brought Negan to call and I think someone was going to die for that little escapade anyway Negan quickly works out that bad asses don't like you killing those who they see as under their protection or innocent.
Of Course its all about to kick off now that Daryl escaped mashing people's heads in and the main cast have done their hero walk at Hilltop.
Does anyone have any idea about what the hell the boat stuff was about apart from a reminder that there are zombies still about here and there.
Except when he was digitally rendered to look like a teen in Civil War. And Negan looks like that TS all grown up. To me, at least.
That's a reach - I'm going to start calling you Mr. Fantastic!
Overall, a decent 'mid-season finale'.
A bit disappointed that Rick was NOT playing possum, really was broken, and had to be 'convinced' to take action.
Still, at least we're there - and away we go!
Indeed - Its ironical I think by hisstandards, Neegan probably figures he is going easy on them.
After all they killed about 40 of his people prior to the meeting, Carl guns down a couple, Rosita tries to shoot him etc.- he has only killed three in response
I also thought they might have had some of the Saviours mentioning that friends and family were the ones in the outpost.
Also, for everyone that hates Eugene, he owned up to Negan and identified himself as the bullet maker. That took a hell of a lot of guts - he thought he was gonna be killed. Negan was definitely tempted.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Also, for everyone that hates Eugene, he owned up to Negan and identified himself as the bullet maker. That took a hell of a lot of guts - he thought he was gonna be killed. Negan was definitely tempted.
That'll be me then Well only one person died before he did (and he was in danger of being randomly picked to be blown away) but yeah he finally did the right thing
I can;t think of anyone in the comics who fits who the guy at the boat is - anyone any ideas?
Just hose him down, poke him in the eyes and let him loose.
Again!
The thing is, it wasn't that long ago (in show terms, although it may feel like a long time to us) that the show was toying with the idea that Rick's gone full caveman. That was from his arrival in Alexandria (ME WANT JESSIE) all the way up to him making the preemptive strike on the Saviors. And now he's broken again...I mean fixed. Again.
IMO, the preemptive strike thing was where some of the problems started with the writing. It wasn't in Rick's character to do that. Clearly it was about build-up...both for Rick, so he could be shattered, and Negan, because they wanted him to be a big deal for the show. And perhaps because of the preemptive strike, they had to triple-down on how eeeeeeeeeeevil Negan and the Saviors are so they didn't end up looking like a more reasonable bunch of fellas than Rick's crew.
If they had just followed the comic a little more closely, I think this whole arc would have felt more real and less manipulative. I mean, the Glenn dumpster thing? Really? Just to make us think you *wouldn't* kill him so it'd be surprising when you did? Dumb.
Yeah, the overt manipulation is very weak and I was disappointed that they went broken Rick again. It was stupid and didn't make any sense in context. Possum Rick would have worked just as well and made a lot more contextual sense- fight smarter, not harder.
Negan really seems to want Rick's life, though. And definitely is being a softy (from Negan's POV anyway). Rosita's move was *super* dumb, but did showcase how Eugene has advanced.
Darryl looked like a badass. Bashing that guy's head was totally legit after what he had been through and seen them to be. Seems like their will be fallout, however.
Interested to see who the new guy is. Looks like he has some spiffy boots.
The spiffy boot guy is Negan's lost brother, Biff. He strangles people with a chain named Linda. And has a penchant for boats. He's a sicker man than Negan. And he has a brothel of men.
Oh wait, FETH. I have an idea who it might be...Anyone else remember Davidson? In the comics the mystery of what happened to Davidson was left unsolved. But the TV showrunners might have decided to adapt it for the show as a filler arc. Some lone nutter with a grudge against Alexandria for casting him out. Seems to be consistent with the character that owned the boat on the lake that Rick and Aaron raided (assuming the owner of the boat is the same person as the person we see in this episode). He'll have a grudge against Aaron in particular.
As mentioned by Aaron, Davidson was once the leader of a small group consisting of himself, a woman, and another man. The three were recruited by Aaron and brought to the Alexandria Safe-Zone, but were exiled away from the community by its leader Deanna Monroe after proving to be unfit to reside peacefully within the walls. He and the other two were driven out by Deanna's son Aiden and another community member Nicholas, and were left behind with a couple days' worth of food and water, but no guns.
It is unknown what happened to Davidson and his companions.
Davidson was a very different character in the comics, and actually co-founded Alexandria with Douglas Monroe (the male comic counterpart to Deanna Monroe).
Spoiler:
Douglas Monroe explained to Rick Grimes that at first being in the Davidson's community was a rewarding experience, and that Davidson was a good leader, "the man for the job". "But then things changed. He didn't rape those women...not exactly...but he knew what he was doing. He was in a position to keep them safe...offer them more protection...or none at all."
Douglas learned about the way Davidson manipulated women after Beth, one of Davidson's victims, killed herself. Davidson was "forcing people into jobs they didn't want, putting others in danger instead of himself."
Douglas burnt a zombie to double as Davidson and then exiled him for his actions.[1]
Within the scope of the Alexandria arc, Davidson is somewhat of a bogeyman. The very mention of his name, causes Douglas to lose his temper with Heath. Rick has elicited unfavorable comparisons to him, much to the chagrin of Monroe. Very little had been revealed about him.
Why would he and how would he slip him a note? Seems like an inside job.
Dude, Jesus is a ninja. He could sneak into Negan's room and hide under Negan's bed while he sleeps if he wanted to.
Ya, but then he would just open the door and say let's go.
I'm going with Dwight because he wasn't at Alexandria doing evil stuff. He's supposed to be the one watching the shop. Seeing Negan iron another guy's face may have made him think about some of his life decisions.
Dwight. The key attached to the note was for Daryls motorbike. Could only be Sherry if she decided to change out of those tiny shoes into some stompy army boots. Also the whole wardrobe swap between the two characters seems a big tell. Dwight now wears the biker leathers and Daryl returns to his redneck roots, these two could have been brothers.
Why would Jesus slip Daryl a note only to meet up with him moments later.
Dwight. The key attached to the note was for Daryls motorbike. Could only be Sherry if she decided to change out of those tiny shoes into some stompy army boots. Also the whole wardrobe swap between the two characters seems a big tell. Dwight now wears the biker leathers and Daryl returns to his redneck roots, these two could have been brothers.
Why would Jesus slip Daryl a note only to meet up with him moments later.
Yeah, Dwight seems pretty sick of Negan and has crossed him before. With seeing Darryl as something of a kindred spirit and the groups as competent enough to at least oust Negan, Dwight seems to be getting bolder. No doubt Negan will be super pissed that Daryl got out. Easy enough to blame it on the guy who got his skull caved, however. Heck, Negan might appreciate that particular detail.
...when Alpha makes her little Pez dispenser fence, we'll have the privilege of seeing Andrew Lincoln bugging out his eyes and shaking yet again...
Spoiler:
You mean Carol??
Spoiler:
Not sure I follow. You mean Carol on a post? Possible, but I tend to think they'll stick to the script and use Ezekiel.
Spoiler:
i see Carol winning any confrontation with Alpha. I think they'll stick to Ezekiel too.
Also...Sasha is toast. She just signed as the lead role for Star Trek. Since she has Holly's comic arc, and they're staying close to the comics this season, she's got a MASSIVE target on her back. Just as large as the one on Abraham was.
Have they killed off Sasha Williams yet? If not, I'm guessing she's not long for the world given that the actress, Sonequa Martin-Green, is set to be one of the main characters on that new Star Trek show.
...when Alpha makes her little Pez dispenser fence, we'll have the privilege of seeing Andrew Lincoln bugging out his eyes and shaking yet again...
Spoiler:
You mean Carol??
Spoiler:
Not sure I follow. You mean Carol on a post? Possible, but I tend to think they'll stick to the script and use Ezekiel.
Spoiler:
i see Carol winning any confrontation with Alpha. I think they'll stick to Ezekiel too.
Also...Sasha is toast. She just signed as the lead role for Star Trek. Since she has Holly's comic arc, and they're staying close to the comics this season, she's got a MASSIVE target on her back. Just as large as the one on Abraham was.
So we're back and a pretty slow episode. The "negotiations" all seemed very brief and perfunctory. The bomb gathering and zombie mow down was fun, but seemed kind of pointless, other than to give them some demolitions. The new group at the end was pretty cool (sneaky like ninjas, apparently!) and I am hoping that the food was going to gain their support....
jmurph wrote: So we're back and a pretty slow episode. The "negotiations" all seemed very brief and perfunctory. The bomb gathering and zombie mow down was fun, but seemed kind of pointless, other than to give them some demolitions. The new group at the end was pretty cool (sneaky like ninjas, apparently!) and I am hoping that the food was going to gain their support....
I'm really, really, really, really hoping that this wasn't the intro for a certain faction that we've yet to see in the show but have seen in the comics...
Also, I loved the Slice-Capades down the highway. It felt very much like "Dead Rising".
Aside from the lack of Skinsuits, they seem to be not unlike the Whispers.
Well, that's kind of a big clue that they aren't them.
Spoiler:
Besides, how many times do we see the Whisperers engage in the books WITH guns and WITHOUT a mob of walkers to screen them? Actually, I'm not sure what it is about them that reminds you of the Whisperers beyond possibly a female leader.
I think what the writers are doing here is giving Rick an ample number of foot soldiers. They've built up the show Saviors to have SO many resources that it's hard to believe that Alexandria and the Hilltop could ever hope to fight them. Especially since show Alexandria is weaponless. Both communities have been portrayed as fairly small in the show, so they probably felt they needed to add a large Kingdom and some new allies not in the comics to even things out.
Aside from the lack of Skinsuits, they seem to be not unlike the Whispers.
Well, that's kind of a big clue that they aren't them.
Spoiler:
Besides, how many times do we see the Whisperers engage in the books WITH guns and WITHOUT a mob of walkers to screen them? Actually, I'm not sure what it is about them that reminds you of the Whisperers beyond possibly a female leader.
The fact that the midseason finale had this new group spying on Alexandria?
I think what the writers are doing here is giving Rick an ample number of foot soldiers. They've built up the show Saviors to have SO many resources that it's hard to believe that Alexandria and the Hilltop could ever hope to fight them. Especially since show Alexandria is weaponless. Both communities have been portrayed as fairly small in the show, so they probably felt they needed to add a large Kingdom and some new allies not in the comics to even things out.
Call it a hunch or maybe just wishing, but Kirkman's been very cagey about this particular group in the show and when it would happen.
jmurph wrote: So we're back and a pretty slow episode. The "negotiations" all seemed very brief and perfunctory. The bomb gathering and zombie mow down was fun, but seemed kind of pointless, other than to give them some demolitions. The new group at the end was pretty cool (sneaky like ninjas, apparently!) and I am hoping that the food was going to gain their support....
Well it was missing Neegan except "radioed in" so yeah dull sums it up.
The Bomb stuff was out of nowhere and the car stuff was a fun diversion from the dullness and earnestnees of all the nice people wanting Rick to use them as canon fodder (lets face thats all they will be)
That new group was as sneaky as a Zombie about to chomp on a non main cast emmber - so yeah pretty damn sneaky.
Apart from that - well Rosita is still hot.
I would agree that they have written the Saviours as more and more one dimensional - easy but dull.
Loved the whole yeah they killed 4 of us aren't they evil (having killed about 60 of them including about 30 in a pre-emptive sneak attack).
Yeah, the diplomacy was laughably bad. "The Saviors are bad, we need to take care of them."
"But you were already supposed to do that and took a bunch of our stuff! Now it's even worse!"
That Hilltop guy is a schmuck, but he made a really good point. Kinda the same way for the Kingdom- what is their incentive to breach the agreement and put so many at risk?
Also - "yeah we completely surrendered all of our weapons to them and gave up" but now we need you guys to supply all the manpower and the weapons.
They really seem to spin the story threads of the Walking Dead out as along as possible but don't really seem to develop the characters either even though they have too many main cast who don't really have much to do.
The two of us watched four episodes of tv shows last night: Black Sails, Lucifer, then Walking Dead, then Lucifer.
That was three great episodes and one plodding pretty dull one with some fun moments like the cars.
Hopefully we will get a Negan episode next week to make it more interesting/amusing - I mean his wannabee is ok but still a a wannabee.
I can't see this storyline lasting beyond the end of season, The Saviours are just going to be slaughtered in a big fight with lots of no names getting slaughtered and then back to where they started.
They've also woven in (at the end of the first half of the season) signs of dissent within the Saviours, so Rick has that, even if he doesn't realise it.
It only takes a relative few to be peeved enough to turn their coats, and they'll carry along with them those generally unhappy or mildly disgruntled - we're seeing only true Survivors at this stage - those who've been able to make the hard decisions and keep going through thick and thin.
That suggests a certain pragmatic approach - and I daresay not being at the behest of Neagan's moods is a good thing for survival.
Well, Negan's flippant brutal behavior is a whole 'nother inconsitency that doesn't make sense. Given that he hasn't shown any exceptional abilities on his own, it seems odd that a group of merciless strongmen wouldn't quickly turn on him. Every tyrant knows you treat your best warriors well. And even then, it's not always enough. At least Dwight seems to be a nod to this. And while he also seems alot more logically motivated than Negan. I would expect he would actually make a better leader and would have deposed him long ago. I can't imagine groups forced into obedience at gunpoint and having lost loved ones/friends to their "glorious leader", as well as wives and daughters, would be that hard to pursuade so long as the new guy can keep the food and water flowing.
In the comics Negan is a bigger more physically imposing guy. I like Jeffrey Dean Morgan and I think he was cast because how he played The Comedian but he just seems a lot smaller since that role. Usually a leather jacket makes you look bigger but somehow it's making him smaller.
He had a role where he got down to like 130
Lbs for it. The problem is that he also has an actual farm her works. He's unlikely to bulk back up to the days of supernatural/comedian/the losers. It was my one concern of his for the role.
At least it feels like we are going to be moving forward week to week now.
Negan's 'redemption' (at least so far) in the Whisperers arc is something else!
I'm still hopeful the The Walking Dead's creators and JDM can make TV Negan a lot better too.
Hmn,
Spoiler:
I wonder if they'll expand on any of the stuff involving his wife? They left out a lot of the Governor's backstory. Perhaps they'll leave all that up till they reach where they are in the comics (considering the latest issue had him and Rick alone in the room, and Negan broke down a bit).
I think they won't bother doing much if any backstory for Negan and be surprised if he/the Saviours last beyond this season.
When he is on screen its all great fun but as others have said a Strong Man style leader has to be the Strong Man - any more reversals and one of the other proto Negan's is likely to make a challenge.
I think they will just stick with Negan and his bad men (and very occasional woman) and the oppressed Saviours who will be there to fill the holes that the conflict will make n the populations.
Depends a bit on how the new group work in the show.
Yeah, part of the problem is that the show seems afraid to have any real morality debates and so the group has to be portrayed as always good/right and bad guys as clearly bad and need to be killed. Which is a shame as real people don't really work that way and are often many shades of grey.
The Governor is a perfect example of the ham fisted approach. They had a great opportunity to show him as a man doing what he thinks necessary to protect those around him. Brutal, and maybe misguided and cruel, but with a protective streak. But no, needed a stupid plot zombie and he had to shoot back to twirling mustache evil and public decapitation for reasons.
Likewise, Rick and crews cold blooded extermination of a Saviors outpost was pretty much glossed over as necessary because they are all bad. And subsequently justified in show by having every Savior inexplicably loyal to a bombastic, brutal, strongman and showing lots of scummy behavior so they can be offed without consequence.
Negan explains his rational behind when he did what he did. He lost everything, and saw that weak people couldn't survive. His twisted view was that he was saving the people his group subjugated. When he killed Glenn he was showing that Rick's group weren't strong enough to survive, but that if they bent the knee he could protect them from themselves.
Well, the Saviours in the comics actually being more than just bullies and protecting the settlements. ...Again, in their twisted manner. Barring the events of the latest arc.
