Yep, this was a key part of the Alexandria swarm in the comics; they figured out that Zombies aren't the real threat since any dedicated group of individuals with hand weapons can stand their ground and kill a ridiculous number of them. I'm glad they brought this over from the comics.
Yeah I wouldn't say its unrealistic at all too.
Rick only trusted his core group of people to fight, and not run or break formation (which is basically the key to just mowing through hordes)
The only thing I have an issue with is that so many people are still using knives as opposed to more practical hand weapons and rudimentary shields.
I am still cheering for an appearance of some medieval reenactor or someone finding a suit of plate maille armour to go, well, medieval on the zombies for a while.
To me, full plate seems like a good way to get yourself buried in zombies.
But phalanx or legion-style combat, with shields to push and hand weapons over the top would probably get a lot of work done. Would have to watch the crawling biters, but that's what greaves are for.
gorgon wrote: To me, full plate seems like a good way to get yourself buried in zombies.
But phalanx or legion-style combat, with shields to push and hand weapons over the top would probably get a lot of work done. Would have to watch the crawling biters, but that's what greaves are for.
Its actually shocking how mobile you can still be, compared to modern soldier load outs armoured suits are nothing.
The "hard core" survivor's are all packing weapons and enough ammo + bags and such, so as long as they were dedicated troops, having a "tank" who literally can be taken down by a horde but not die while the rest play clean up could be really useful I think.
But yeah, a bunch of em with basic wood shields, tight mobile formations and basic hand weapons would do wonders and be easier to aquire.
I just don't get why the author never really explores that facet of zombie combat, guns are wayyyy over emphasised and are far too easily utilized by people with little to no experience with them.
Spoiler:
Its not even mentioned till later by neegan how stupid it is that rick and crew still use guns against the dead at all. which is something of importance, and I think, greatly shows just how practical neegan really is.
The realism of being able to mow down zombies in hand to hand, while a bit exaggerated, is still far closer to reality then how easy they make amateurs popping headshots at moving targets appear.
what I wonder about is how they are going to handle the wolves vs neegans group. we still do not know much about either group, other then they are hostile and out in force.
how stupid it is that rick and crew still use guns against the dead at all. which is something of importance, and I think, greatly shows just how practical neegan really is.
To begin with, yeah. But in response to the threat posed by the Saviours...
Spoiler:
, Eugene sets up an ammunition factory to support the war effort. As of the latest issue, TWD 151, Alexandria's primary export is ammunition.
right but there are lots of instances where for some reason rick or crew decide to shoot Z's rather then smack em and the crew, even total gun noobs, seem to have become expert marksmen before their close combat skills really developed.
either way, really good episode, entertaining and well shot I think it does justice to the comics.
I was kind of shocked to come on here and see everyone raving about how much they liked that episode. Most of the reviews online seemed to agree with that sentiment. I thought I was going crazy because I more or less hated the episode, but I finally ran across one reviewer that more or less sums up my overall issues with it nicely:
The big, huge problem I have is that the threat of the zombies seems to dramatically shift from 'OMG they're going to kill us' to 'we can kill hundreds of them if we just try' based solely on what is needed at a given moment.
Having our pack of zombie guts heroes find a nice quiet spot in the middle of the city where they can talk without attracting any walkers? No problem...the zombies just wander around aimlessly near them without noticing their talking, despite it not being that particularly quiet. Then all of a sudden when the zombies 'need' to kill people, they lunge out and bite the Wolf guy on the arm or tear Sam apart. But then when its time for Rick to go crazy and start killing zombies, all of a sudden its possible for a small group to take on hundreds, if not thousands of walkers at once? Its completely bat guano crazy by the standards the show has set for itself. And when Abraham and Sasha show up, they can suddenly mow down dozens of zombies in an instant right in front of Glenn without hitting him? Its just lazy. It didn't need to be blocked like that except to give another cheap scare about Glenn possibly dying.
The worst of all? Darryl setting the lake in the middle of the town on fire? Are you kidding me? I remember back when we were talking about the quarry in this thread, I suggested that they should have simply lit the walkers in the quarry on fire, and someone said that it would be too dangerous because any walkers that would escape would surely start a wildfire. And yet here we are in the MIDDLE OF THE TOWN and the zombies are being set on fire and somehow this is a miraculous cure to save everything! And when dawn arrives, nobody fighting hundreds of zombies by hand has apparently been killed, and no flaming zombies managed to set anything on fire.
I feel like more and more TWD is simply deciding what they want to happen, and then are perfectly fine and dandy with bending any and all realism and internal standards they have previously established to make that thing happen. The first half of this season I felt like they were really starting to go that direction (with Glenn's 'death' for example) and this latest episode was the absolute worst offender yet.
As the reviewer states in his article, exactly what number of zombies are supposed to be a credible threat after this episode? The next time someone gets killed by a handful of zombies (or even like the Wolf guy did in this episode) its just going to feel so cheap, because its been established now that a group of people with hand weapons should be able to kill dozens, if not hundreds of walkers without taking a single loss.
I wasn't a big fan of it either but for different reasons. I just think the comic did a better version of that family's death. In the comic Rick sort of sacrifices his new lady-friend to save his son. That should have just happened right when they left the house. That's why it was stupid that they could have a huddle in the middle of a giant zombie horde but when one kid whimpers he is slowly eaten. Also agree about the giant fire pit of death. Pretty sure zombie always prioritizes a tasty human right in front of him over a some loud bang. Zombies seemed to act differently in that episode than others.
However disagree about the big battle where they all just dig deep and fight. That really is a part of the overall storyline where the community realizes they can deal with almost any zombie situation as long as they keep their heads. I even think it is realistic. Thirty people should be able to systematically cut through many hundreds of zombies. They just slowly shamble towards you after all. I find that more realistic than a horde for some reason only eating the non-main character half a group even though one of them fired a gun.
So all the townsfolk should be hardened zombie killing machines now that have fought for their land. Except for some reason the Mayor's son seemed intimidated by one zombie again. He seems to have forgotten he killed like a hundred last episode. So maybe you concerns a out internal consistency are valid.
That 'one zombie' happened to be his dead mother, Deanna, the former leader of Alexandria. Its no wonder he hesitated. And it also explains Carl's weird behhaviour when he refused to put down Deanna's corpse - he recalled having to kill his own mother to stop her reanimating and felt that Deanna's son Spencer should do it.
She reanimated at some point in the attack, and somehow wandered out of her house through the breach in the walls into the woods instead of following the herd to the battle or the burning pond. Her body was also barely touched, which makes no sense because she died fighting a horde of walkers that should have chewed her body into a bloody pulp.
It was such a weird plot hole, that I felt sure it was a hallucination, and Spencer was mistaking some other walker for his own mother. But Michonne recognised her too.
No, the one before that. Michonne had to step in and take care of it.
He thought it could be his mother, he was out there looking for her. If his mother was alive, or if her body had already been recovered and buried, he wouldn't be hesitating.
pretre wrote: Shark Suits, Riot Shields and Machetes...
In reality you would just need motorcycle leathers, a homemade shield, and a nice ice axe.
In reality the Zombies would be unlikely to have the strength to hold on to people with rotten teeth, lack of muscles and tendons, or even break the skin never mind tear off huge chunks of flesh....
A Roman Legion style force would be quite fun to see in operation and should have no issue with Zombies - in fact Romans Vs Zombies would be a good film.
Cavalry on the other hand would be a liability in direct combat as unless very well trained its unlikely the horses would go near them without panicking. They would be good for the real use of most cavalry - scouting......
Spears, shields and the like would also be a no brainer in reality but they have to try and make them seem dangerous in the show/comics.
pretre wrote: Shark Suits, Riot Shields and Machetes...
In reality you would just need motorcycle leathers, a homemade shield, and a nice ice axe.
In reality the Zombies would be unlikely to have the strength to hold on to people with rotten teeth, lack of muscles and tendons, or even break the skin never mind tear off huge chunks of flesh....
A Roman Legion style force would be quite fun to see in operation and should have no issue with Zombies - in fact Romans Vs Zombies would be a good film.
Cavalry on the other hand would be a liability in direct combat as unless very well trained its unlikely the horses would go near them without panicking. They would be good for the real use of most cavalry - scouting......
Spears, shields and the like would also be a no brainer in reality but they have to try and make them seem dangerous in the show/comics.
There's a series called Crossed, which is in a similar setting (at one point someone says "don't you dare you zombie", the Crossed are worse). The infection's passed by bodily fluids, so one navy guy wonders about Scotland dressed in a wetsuit.
We'll ignore that he also wears a kilt on top of that as well... Or that his face is exposed and plays bagpipes in order to draw the Crossed' attention. Heh, would post pictures, but that series as hardly work safe.
Though aye, in saying that, if you search "Crossed: Wish you were here", you'll find two free multiple volume webcomics for free on the main site. There's also a good load of print volumes as well, though whilst sharing a similar setting to the Walking Dead (+100 takes place far after the outbreak), the tone's a *bit* different and largely cynical.
Oh yes, I should have opened that the story involving the kilt wearing guy also opens with two survivors starting at one of the Crossed getting off with a dolphin...
Will be very interesting to see who catches the bat. Probably Glenn, since they seem to be keeping close to the comics at the moment, other than a few outliers.
Yeah, Maggie saying that there'll be a price was...ominous.
(comic spoilers ahead)
Spoiler:
Still don't think it'll be Glenn, but I rate the chances higher now than I did before. Morgan is still my pick because it makes MUCH more story sense than Glenn. By dying to Lucille, Morgan triggers Rick's eventual decision to spare Negan. Morgan's death would, in a way, eventually save Rick's soul, and that's something Morgan would be pretty happy about.
I actually think Daryl could be in jeopardy, something I previously thought was impossible. Huge fan favorite, but is he a necessary character? And with things tracking the comics closer than ever, he seems a little...extraneous? Especially with the arrival of Jesus. And the character has sure been squirrelly lately. I'm surprised I'm even entertaining the notion, but I have the notion.
And Abraham. Poor guy. Not only has he been having some nice moments, it looks like he'll get to go on patrol with Eugene. So...yeah.
It dawned on me recently how much Sasha picking up Holly's material makes sense, considering what Holly eventually does. She gets mistaken for Michonne the same way Holly was for Andrea.
Anyway, I liked the episode. It was great to see the Hilltop, and I thought they did a good job creating a sense of a storm brewing underneath the optimistic revelation of the Hilltop.
I still have to say the best part of this season was the Savior gang in the opener.
'Naw, you know what? On second though I think I'll just-" BANG!!! The sick and twisted part of me laughed out loud at the suddeness of the tenseness breaking in that scene.
AegisGrimm wrote: I still have to say the best part of this season was the Savior gang in the opener.
'Naw, you know what? On second though I think I'll just-" BANG!!! The sick and twisted part of me laughed out loud at the suddeness of the tenseness breaking in that scene.
I had the same reaction in school watching The Crucible when the protagonist is up on the gallows, begins reciting the Lord's Prayer and then SNAP. So did the entire class in fact.
Yeah, I actually jumped a bit when the Saviors bit it. I was dead certain those three were not getting killed off, but that is the least of the ways I expected they'd get out of it, lol.
Pretty militaristic episode. Liked it, just think at least one of the Alexandrians should have got shot or killed. These guys are better than SEAL team six.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Pretty militaristic episode. Liked it, just think at least one of the Alexandrians should have got shot or killed. These guys are better than SEAL team six.
Oh you sweet summer child...Things are going to VERY bloody very soon.
I figure at least 3 regulars will expire. Gimple promised a few "hard left turns" from the comic though, so we'll see how it plays out.
(big comic spoilers ahead)
Spoiler:
My bets are Abraham as in the comic, Carol (not sure how yet), and Morgan (by Lucille and Negan)
I'm feeling VERY comfortable about my Morgan pick. Morgan is building a jail cell. That's PERFECT, and actually an improvement upon the comic story IMO. So when Rick decides to spare Negan, it's (at least partially) out of respect to his dead friend and his philosophy. And then Rick throws Negan in the very cell that Morgan built.
Carol...I just don't feel like she has an ALL OUT WAR in her at this point. She's ready to lay down her guns and knives. The character's arc is clearly nearing it's end, so it's a matter of finding the right kind of death. I don't think she offs herself as in the comic...I think it's going to be a selfless death out of respect to the character.
And MAN O MAN, are they still teasing us with Glenn and Lucille, or what?!? I think it's unlikely to happen though for the reasons stated above...they're just having fun with us comic fans.
For all the action, it was kind of a poignant episode as a few characters dealt with the gravity of killing another human being (in Carol's case, many human beings)...in the face of the real storm to come.
I think Lucille will definitely happen, but it'll probably involve somebody else. I mean, come on, it was a notorious moment from the comics that cannot possibly be omitted.
I liked the episode quite a bit. Quite different from anything they've done before. Something that Talking Dead pointed out that I hadn't thought about in regards to their military movements is that they've now had 2+ months of peace time for Abraham and Rosita (both with military training) and Rick (policy training) to polish skills and teach new ones for the newer people to keep things like what happened with the wolves from happening again.
I agree that I feel like Carol is nearing the end of her arc similar to Hershel and Tyreese. I hope she gets a meaningful death (likely saving Maggie) as she's a first seasoner (and then there were 4) and deserves to go out like a champ after how awesome that character has been played for the last 6 years.
Glad to see Alicia Witt was cast at least as something. She was awesome in Justified and the show can always use more strong woman (especially if Carol eats it).
I see Morgan getting caught trying to save Carol & Maggie. Carol going down so that Maggie escapes. Morgan meeting Lucille. That feels like the way this should play out. Maybe with Abraham going down at some point during the war doing something truly heroic. I honestly kinda hope he makes it and they kill off someone else. His comments are gold, I love the character, and poor Sasha needs to stop losing people she's in love with.
Sinful Hero wrote: Thought it was an okay episode, but I have to admit I didn't pay attention too much.
Was it explained why the severed heads didn't zombify?
They were killed zombies who's heads they had chopped off. No one in the "modern" world is going to question a hole in the jaw or side of the head that kills the brain so it wasn't brought up. They just had to keep the face recognizable.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I think Lucille will definitely happen, but it'll probably involve somebody else. I mean, come on, it was a notorious moment from the comics that cannot possibly be omitted.
I don't think anyone has even suggested that's not happening - just that it might not be happening to who it happened to in the comics is all!
I mean, even if someone thought that Lucille wasn't...happening, last night's Polaroid Moment(s) pretty much confirmed that it is...happening.
Yeah, I don't see them pulling the trigger on two season 1 people in 4 episodes. As it stands we're only sitting at 5 from season 1 and one from season 2. Everyone else has been around far less time. Of those 6 people the only one who's path feels complete is Carol.
Carl and Rick aren't going anywhere ever. They are the story.
Maggie is preggers and I don't see them killing off the pregnant lady.
Kirkman is on record saying he was ok killing comic Glenn off because he had TV Glenn. And we've got Glenn's new emotional trauma of being killer of men to work thru now.
Daryl is THE fan favorite. The only one close is Michonne and that's because of the comics. I can't imagine he's going anywhere.
I'm personally hoping we get more out of Aaron but I worry that his happier attitude and outlook and general upbeat, almost jokey style are redundant with the way they are playing Jesus. I feel like he could get the hammer.
If they're ever going to kill Daryl off, I think it'll involve an arrow...
I think you're just wishlisting there...
It is going to be very, very hard for them to even pull that particular trigger.
Which is why I said "if they ever kill him off". I know its unlikely, but I'm just saying this Season would be the opportune moment to kill him off if the actor wants out or the producers decide his character has come to the end of his natural character arc.
Yeah, the way everyone on the cast talks about it the only way to get rid of people is to kill them off on the show. No one seems to want out for other projects. Granted, if they want to their is plenty of time to do something else while doing this show.
So was it just me or was that raid super crappy? No scouting, no hitting patrols, just go in at night and hope it works. Oh, and let's bring our only pregnant member and have her part of a two person rearguard. Seriously? As a former LEO, Rick would no doubt have been involved in raids/searches/warrant execution where everything is mapped out as much as possible. Uncertainty = danger.
Luckily, it pretty much worked, but they have no idea if this is just an outpost (which I think is highly likely- looks like just a weed farm and depot) and there are still plenty of Negan's group left. And Carol may get the bat.
jmurph wrote: So was it just me or was that raid super crappy? No scouting, no hitting patrols, just go in at night and hope it works. Oh, and let's bring our only pregnant member and have her part of a two person rearguard. Seriously? As a former LEO, Rick would no doubt have been involved in raids/searches/warrant execution where everything is mapped out as much as possible. Uncertainty = danger.
Luckily, it pretty much worked, but they have no idea if this is just an outpost (which I think is highly likely- looks like just a weed farm and depot) and there are still plenty of Negan's group left. And Carol may get the bat.
They were on a time crunch because of the hostage. They didn't have time to do super thorough recon on the location because they weren't going to hand them Gregory's head and they didn't want the prisoner to die. Plus that head was their quick and quiet way in. They did show them mapping it as much as possible.
And Maggie has the right to make her own decisions. And the "rear" guard was actually decently sized just spread out. And in this world when do you think people like Maggie (only a few months pregnant) and Carol can't handle themselves?
In a perfect world they would watch a delivery, maybe slip someone onto the entry. Daryl would scout everything around the location. Personally I think they also gave the Hilltop people to much credit because Rick's group would have scouted (done it before) and made sure it was the location to hit. They aren't used to dealing with potentially multiple locations for gangs and Hilltop acted like this was the place.
jmurph wrote: Luckily, it pretty much worked, but they have no idea if this is just an outpost (which I think is highly likely- looks like just a weed farm and depot) and there are still plenty of Negan's group left. And Carol may get the bat.
I think it was not just an outpost, but a satellite location.
Yeah really good episode, leaves lots of questions, everyone is wondering who gets
Spoiler:
the lucille treatment. Personally I think either morgan, aaron, or carol is going to get hit. If I had to choose one, probably Aaron as he has been getting more face time that seems to make us care more about him. who knows though right? I really hope they decide NOT to kill abraham too
This looks like quite the satellite base with the ending really hammers home that rick and crew seem to have bitten off more then they can chew.
I'm feeling pretty confident about my choices, but I think Tara is also at risk and my confidence level with Maggie -- while still generally high -- isn't 100%.
Spoiler:
The main reason -- would Morgan's death be the right level of gut punch for arguably the most famous scene in the story? If it was Maggie, that would bring that, and it'd be a easy "flip" from the comics. They do seem to be prepping her to take over at the Hilltop, and I never felt like Glenn had to die in order for that to happen. Still...it'd be the kind of gut punch that Glenn's death was in the books. It almost makes me wonder if two people will die in that scene to make the stakes clear and high enough.
In some article I read, they brought up the point that Tara -- captured on the way to the Hilltop? -- could end up meeting Holly's fate and set up the horrific scene with Denise from the comics. It'd be out of sequence from the comics, but the 'when we meet again' talk between Tara and Denise could point that way. And again, Gimple has said some stuff will be different. I do think we're going to see a tighter, more compact version of All Out War than we got in the books.
And Maggie has the right to make her own decisions. And the "rear" guard was actually decently sized just spread out. And in this world when do you think people like Maggie (only a few months pregnant) and Carol can't handle themselves?
Sure, she has that right. She is also being groomed as the new #2, so she should be thinking bigger picture, though. I know she didn't want Glen going out alone, but he has proven more than capable of getting out of tough scrapes, and he is not carrying their baby. Maggie and Carol, like anyone else, can't handle themselves when badly outgunned and outnumbered. As happened in the episode.
Regardless, somebody has to get captured for plot reasons, so I guess it doesn't matter. The head scheme was pretty clever, though. I also liked that Glen took a moment to look at the bash pics on the wall. Nice little nod to the comic there.
What is baffling to me is that some reviews are panning the group as somehow descending to bad guy levels. Sure, knifing dudes in their sleep seems pretty cold. But then you remember that these are these same ones that will happily kill someone in their path to make a point, and would gladly gun down the Alexandria group, and it seems slightly less disturbing. Hard world and all that.
It was definitely a dark turn for the group, even if it's a dark show. It's a step or two beyond their usual MO, and I don't know how anyone watching the show could think otherwise.
I mean, the Saviors are what they are, but their goal isn't to go in and wipe out communities in their sleep. They want to work with you...on their terms.
gorgon wrote: It was definitely a dark turn for the group, even if it's a dark show. It's a step or two beyond their usual MO, and I don't know how anyone watching the show could think otherwise.
I mean, the Saviors are what they are, but their goal isn't to go in and wipe out communities in their sleep. They want to work with you...on their terms.
They beat a 16 year old resident of the Hilltop to death as a way of introducing themselves.
They terrorize communities with a protection racket, extorting them into handing over their supplies putting them at risk of starvation.
One of the bikers was going to kill Sascha, Abraham and Daryl on a whim.
Their leader is a psychopath and fanboys in the gang keep Polaroids of his handywork.
The Saviours want slave labourers, and will kill you for resisting. Rick and co. eliminate people that they know to be a threat, but are willing to peacefully deal and trade with friendly groups. The idea that Rick and co. are somehow worse than the Saviours is ridiculous.
Regardless, somebody has to get captured for plot reasons, so I guess it doesn't matter. The head scheme was pretty clever, though. I also liked that Glen took a moment to look at the bash pics on the wall. Nice little nod to the comic there.
I'd say that was some foreshadowing going on, it was about as subtle as a baseball bat to the head
gorgon wrote: It was definitely a dark turn for the group, even if it's a dark show. It's a step or two beyond their usual MO, and I don't know how anyone watching the show could think otherwise.
I mean, the Saviors are what they are, but their goal isn't to go in and wipe out communities in their sleep. They want to work with you...on their terms.
I think the offensive can be justified. They already were almost robbed/killed by some of their biker gang outriders. They witnessed one of the Hilltoppers try to assassinate his own leader by using a hostage scheme and basically Rick believes Jesus & co that they are bad dudes.
Don't get me wrong it was still a dark turn and the Alexandrians are "profiting" in this mercenary work as well.
Pretty good episode - a little drawn out in places but good.
My friend now has put Abraham at the top of her S**t list for the "I was only with you because I thought you were the last woman on earth and turns out you aren't"
Impressed with the covert ops abilities the people have developed - even non main cast.
Love Negan in the comic but it would be fun if they have been using disinformation and the real Negan in this world is the redhead apparently calling the shots...........maybe with a front man.....
great nights tv - new episodes of Black Sails, Vikings and Walking dead - just need Vamprie Diaries and Originals to come back on UK tv,
Love Negan in the comic but it would be fun if they have been using disinformation and the real Negan in this world is the redhead apparently calling the shots...........maybe with a front man.....
God no, I hope not. Negan was a fantastic charismatic character in the comics, and
Spoiler:
becomes a sort of devil on Rick's shoulder.
Switching genders worked for Deanna Monroe, because in the comics the spouse (the wife) was a very minor and uninteresting character. But in the show they switched genders, making the wife the Congresswoman and the husband an architect. Both characters were interesting and important in the show.
But that just won't work with Negan.
I'd much rather this new redhead be a completely original character like Daryl, the ruthless right hand of Negan (he doens't really have a right hand in the comics).
gorgon wrote: It was definitely a dark turn for the group, even if it's a dark show. It's a step or two beyond their usual MO, and I don't know how anyone watching the show could think otherwise.
I mean, the Saviors are what they are, but their goal isn't to go in and wipe out communities in their sleep. They want to work with you...on their terms.
They beat a 16 year old resident of the Hilltop to death as a way of introducing themselves.
They terrorize communities with a protection racket, extorting them into handing over their supplies putting them at risk of starvation.
One of the bikers was going to kill Sascha, Abraham and Daryl on a whim.
Their leader is a psychopath and fanboys in the gang keep Polaroids of his handywork.
The Saviours want slave labourers, and will kill you for resisting. Rick and co. eliminate people that they know to be a threat, but are willing to peacefully deal and trade with friendly groups. The idea that Rick and co. are somehow worse than the Saviours is ridiculous.
Well then, it's a good thing that's not what I said.
For all their many sins, the Saviors DO NOT make per-emptive kill strikes against communities. That defeats everything Negan is trying to accomplish. What's more, Rick and company did that for COMPENSATION. Sure, he made it sound like defense was the reason in his speech to the Alexandrians, but what was the truth he told his crew?
"This is how we eat."
Killing in exchange for supplies then. Sounds familiar. And was benevolent Rick going to leave the Hilltop peacefully without supplies? We know that he wasn't because he said as much. He was strong arming the Hilltop. That sounds familiar too.
Dealing with Rick's crew is clearly an improvement over Negan for the Hilltop. But that doesn't mean that Rick and co. are acting in a noble fashion right now. They're down in the muck too.
And I believe Abraham or Carol will be gone next EPISODE !!!!
Carol would sacrifice herself for Maggie and Lucille will do her thing.
And her doing the whole "KILL STAT" sheet kinda has her in a downing funk.
And all Glenn's close calls may just be a teaser for comic readers who are saying he is gone....
BUT like always... who knows whats coming next and they may throw us another huge curve ball
IS IT SUNDAY YET !!!
ps... what if Darryl is really the father of Maggie's baby ?!?
gorgon wrote: It was definitely a dark turn for the group, even if it's a dark show. It's a step or two beyond their usual MO, and I don't know how anyone watching the show could think otherwise.
I mean, the Saviors are what they are, but their goal isn't to go in and wipe out communities in their sleep. They want to work with you...on their terms.
They beat a 16 year old resident of the Hilltop to death as a way of introducing themselves.
They terrorize communities with a protection racket, extorting them into handing over their supplies putting them at risk of starvation.
One of the bikers was going to kill Sascha, Abraham and Daryl on a whim.
Their leader is a psychopath and fanboys in the gang keep Polaroids of his handywork.
The Saviours want slave labourers, and will kill you for resisting. Rick and co. eliminate people that thy know to be a threat, but are willing to peacefully deal and trade with friendly groups. The idea that Rick and co. are somehow worse than the Saviours is ridiculous.
Well then, it's a good thing that's not what I said.
For all their many sins, the Saviors DO NOT make per-emptive kill strikes against communities. That defeats everything Negan is trying to accomplish. What's more, Rick and company did that for COMPENSATION. Sure, he made it sound like defense was the reason in his speech to the Alexandrians, but what was the truth he told his crew?
"This is how we eat."
Killing in exchange for supplies then. Sounds familiar. And was benevolent Rick going to leave the Hilltop peacefully without supplies? We know that he wasn't because he said as much. He was strong arming the Hilltop. That sounds familiar too.
Dealing with Rick's crew is clearly an improvement over Negan for the Hilltop. But that doesn't mean that Rick and co. are acting in a noble fashion right now. They're down in the muck too.
All good points - Rick has currently the same attitude to hilltop as he had to Alexandria - what was it he said on arrival at Alex - "we can always just take it off them or something similar." At the Hilltop he said - either they trade or we take it IIRC?
It could have been intersting if there had been any obvious non combatants at the Saviour outpost and how they would have handled it.............
The TV Saviours are all being portrayed as the same sort of highly unpleasent guys that Daryl met whilst chashing after Beth....the red head appears to be much more in control and effective - whether she is Negan or Negans go to gal........or the reverse.
It was amusing how few people went to the meeting with Rick - pretty much just the main cast.........
I can't see them killing Morgan - mainly because who would care? If you are doing the bit with the bat and lets face I can;t see anythig less happening given that Rick and co have just slaughtered 20-30 of the Saviours guys it needs to be someone you will miss.....
Oh and its good to see that at the end of the world - there are a few people still taking the time to mow the grass everywhere Good fellows!
I think Morden is on target with the one flaw with Morgan meeting Lucille. It's not a gut punch like Glenn was. We could be looking at a combo death. Morgan meets Lucille, Carol (of all people) leaps up to save him and gets offed, etc. They've been teasing us so much with Glenn over the past couple seasons that he's probably the safest one in the bunch. Safer than Maggie, probably, although it looks like Maggie is on track for her destiny at the Hilltop.
I do think Morgan will expire one way or another, eventually leading Negan to the jail that Morgan built for him.
Of course with the preview bit showing what looks like the Saviours home base we don't just have Bat action but also potentially
Spoiler:
Iron action
I do think a lot of the stuff from the very extensive comic story on Negan etc is going to get cut - they don't have time or need to do most of it - even if next season is the whole Saviours versus Rictatorship battle. The show often moves too slow as it is............
Both in universe and out of it - killing Morgan is simply not (as expressed above) a "gut punch" - a few people may be sad to see him go (not me) but compared to Glen, Maggie, Carol, etc he is just a character in the vague background like the various named Alexandrians.
Nice to see Aeron back and actually doing something...............
I dunno that the show is moving too slowly. Even with only 16 eps a season, they're gaining ground on the books (which tends to happen with adaptations).
I could see the "AOW" storyline being the focus next season and wrapping up by the season ender. Then we're looking at A New Beginning at the start of season 8.
Considering how they spun the major herd attack into half a season and it was all good (even the Morgan episode for me) I can see the "war" taking all next season. They tend to like doing a not horrible cliff hanger season ender once in a while and next season would be about time for another one.
I think 'comics readers' and/or "Smart Fans" might not 'value' Morgan highly, but I think the general TWD TV audience would be...sufficiently shocked if Morgan gets killed.
Especially given his story, journey and current activities and proclivities.
I would assume that All-Out War taking up all of season 7 is a given. Whether or not it would continue into season 8 is the real question. I seem to recall
Spoiler:
Rick pretending to meet Negan's demands for a short while as he planned his eventual attack?
Also if they plan on doing anything between AOW and
Alpharius wrote: I think 'comics readers' and/or "Smart Fans" might not 'value' Morgan highly, but I think the general TWD TV audience would be...sufficiently shocked if Morgan gets killed.
Especially given his story, journey and current activities and proclivities.
Really?
Not convinced - my friend has never read the comics of the books and she can't stand him - although Abraham has now annoyed her and she dislikes the Priest more. Another friend has never read them and he dislikes Morgan and thought a whole episode wasted on him was annoying.
I generally intrigued as to what there is about his character to like?
Alpharius wrote: I think 'comics readers' and/or "Smart Fans" might not 'value' Morgan highly, but I think the general TWD TV audience would be...sufficiently shocked if Morgan gets killed.
Especially given his story, journey and current activities and proclivities.
Really?
Not convinced - my friend has never read the comics of the books and she can't stand him - although Abraham has now annoyed her and she dislikes the Priest more. Another friend has never read them and he dislikes Morgan and thought a whole episode wasted on him was annoying.
I generally intrigued as to what there is about his character to like?
Funny - I'm actually starting to like Gabriel, now that he's taking up arms and becoming more proactive in helping to defend his community. That moment when he executed the Savior was pretty cool.
I'm warming up to Gabriel. I've always been a fan of "warrior priests" if they are done well and his quoting scripture and not hesitating to finish off the Savior pushed him back closer to me accepting him now. Man I loathed him though clean thru till this episode. Which makes sense. He's had 2 months to grow into how he was feeling toward the end of the episode before the break.
Yeah, I think this'll be a turning point for Gabriel, and he's about to become badass. I actually started the show hating Carol, now she's one of my favorites!
I'm hoping Lucielle's actions don't take the same life that they do in the comics.
Not sure on Abraham; I actually haven't really cared for him at all in the entirety of his actions, so watching him take a bat to the face wouldn't upset me. I've straight up "nothing'd" him from jump. He's kinda badass, but I just wasn't a fan.
timetowaste85 wrote: Yeah, I think this'll be a turning point for Gabriel, and he's about to become badass. I actually started the show hating Carol, now she's one of my favorites!
I'm hoping Lucielle's actions don't take the same life that they do in the comics.
Not sure on Abraham; I actually haven't really cared for him at all in the entirety of his actions, so watching him take a bat to the face wouldn't upset me. I've straight up "nothing'd" him from jump. He's kinda badass, but I just wasn't a fan.
Abraham has had an odd couple of episodes - as I said my friend really did not like his words dumping his current lover............she will likely be doing the whole - "please kill him as well"
Love Carol - interesting they gave her a possible love interest........I am sure there will be some betting place with odds on all the cast
Hey maybe they bat them all and its the Negan show - you know, Negan the redheaded woman.............
What I dont get is that the W gang (wolves?) seem to have just dropped off the face of the earth.
Considering that they attacked alexandria, rick and crew seem to have moved on to a new enemy pretty quickly.
Not to mention its a bit odd to see them strike out with all their combat heavies when the W's have not yet been dealt with or even properly investigated
I actually can totally see them casting neegan as a girl or introducing that red head in some way new.
I dont think its the best choice, but I can see it happening.
easysauce wrote: What I dont get is that the W gang (wolves?) seem to have just dropped off the face of the earth.
Considering that they attacked alexandria, rick and crew seem to have moved on to a new enemy pretty quickly.
Because they're all dead. Their comic book counterparts numbered only about 8 people. They were a small, short term threat. The show inflated their numbers for dramatic effect and for extra mileage.
Not to mention its a bit odd to see them strike out with all their combat heavies when the W's have not yet been dealt with or even properly investigated
They HAVE been dealt with. You're overlooking the 2 month time jump between No way Out and The Next World. In those 2 months they had plenty of time to patrol and scout the area and double check that the threat was over.
I actually can totally see them casting Negan as a girl or introducing that red head in some way new.
I dont think its the best choice, but I can see it happening.
Its an utterly stupid idea thats just going to piss off comic fans, myself included. Negan is a notorious and well established figure in the comics. Changing his gender would be like changing Rick's gender, or The Governor. Change that, and its a completely new character. Switching genders worked for Deanna and her husband, because the comic book spouse (the wife) was a very trivial and uninteresting throw-away character, whereas the show made both of them interesting and crucial to the plot.
I'd much rather she be a totally original and badass character invented for the show like Daryl was. Whats wrong with that? Just don't feth with Negan.
Besides, Jeffrey Dean Morgan has already been cast as Negan, the redhead has apparently been named as "Polly", and she doesn't swear anywhere near enough to be Negan's counterpart.
Sinful Hero wrote: I don't think a gender swap would be detrimental to Negan- it was the character's actions and personality that defined him, not his gender.
Either way, as you mentioned that role has already been cast.
What I'm more curious about is how the Wolves apparently operated in Negan's territory without consequence. Especially such a large group.
They were very recent arrivals. They encountered Morgan, Daryl and Aaron far from Alexandria and followed them to it.
If they'd taken Alexandria and settled there, or settled some other place, the Saviours would have discovered them sooner or later. And probably recruited them too. or...the least crazy ones maybe.
They HAVE been dealt with. You're overlooking the 2 month time jump between No way Out and The Next World. In those 2 months they had plenty of time to patrol and scout the area and double check that the threat was over.
Well I guess we can assume they are dealt with, but there wasnt really anything on screen about them after their attack. Nothing really leads me on to assume they were dealt with, although thats not an unreasonable assumption.
Lots still yet to happen, we still have not met
Spoiler:
the knights and mr tiger yet
Going to be some great episodes coming up for sure!
Well I guess we can assume they are dealt with, but there wasnt really anything on screen about them after their attack. Nothing really leads me on to assume they were dealt with, although thats not an unreasonable assumption.
Besides Rick going to town with an AK47 on their leader and the last few survivors? :d
I was under the impression that the walkers tied up to the truck and tractor from "A New World" had something to do with the Wolves, seeing as how the Saviors probably have little need for walkers.
Assuming it is their handiwork(although they're absent the "W"), this is roughly somewhere between where Jesus is scouting and Alexandria. Would not at least be fairly close to their territory?
Of course, it could be a Wolves came from the east, Saviors from the west deal, with Alexandria in the middle.
At least in the comics, after some character development on the part of the Saviors and the extent of their competence, its revealed that they used Zombies, at least in one major instance.
Sinful Hero wrote: I don't think a gender swap would be detrimental to Negan- it was the character's actions and personality that defined him, not his gender.
Either way, as you mentioned that role has already been cast.
What I'm more curious about is how the Wolves apparently operated in Negan's territory without consequence. Especially such a large group.
Happy with a male or female Negan As long as the character is done right - and crossed fingers it translates from comic to TV which is not a given.
Maybe the Wolves are run by the Saviours - have a bunch of mad fethers running about that you have to protect people from........
Not sure why people are still fixated on the Wolves. They attacked, were dealt with, and died. They weren't a particularly large group or a particularly large threat to a well-defended community. Their comics analog was the Scavengers, which was similarly a small group that was quickly dispatched.
gorgon wrote: Not sure why people are still fixated on the Wolves. They attacked, were dealt with, and died. They weren't a particularly large group or a particularly large threat to a well-defended community. Their comics analog was the Scavengers, which was similarly a small group that was quickly dispatched.
Yes. In the the comics, literally their only significance was to draw the herd to Alexandria. They didn't actually kill anyone at all, unlike the show.
They are NOT this Season's main antagonist - that will be the Saviours. The Wolves are all dead and gone.
I kinda liked the Wolves. Although mainly because they're still largely an enigma for me. Why the pseudo zombie worship: marking heads with a 'W', feeding people to zombies, turning people into zombies, zombie traps, etc. The survival of the fittest culture. Their mysteriousness makes them an interesting foe, although delving deeper into it could ruin their appeal(at least for me).
Somehow the last episode felt like an even darker turn for the group. I'm not sure the gang are really the good guys anymore. The TV show has really totally diverged from the comic. Feels like I'm watching one of those alternate universe Justice Leagues that takes over the world or something.
Yeah, the "I am Negan" thing is a neat angle. It seems like the Hilltop group may not know who Negan is after all.
"Same Boat" has convinced me that the safest characters are those captured and tied up. Worked for Morgan, the Wolf, Jesus, Carol and Maggie, etc.
Also "Meet us on the killing floor" was an awesome line.
Why are they not "good guys"? Because they proactively eliminate threats? Should they have walked up to them and said "Hai guys let's be friends!"? Don't forget that Negan and crew usually kill someone to introduce themselves and beat a 16 year old to death in front of the Hilltop group to make a point. The last episode made it pretty clear Paula wasn't going to trade Maggie and Carol back and would kill the Alexandria group at the first opportunity.
Let's put it this way, in the reality of the show, would you want to run into Rick and crew? They generally don't kill for sport and try to take people in where they can, after all. Or one of the other groups? Good is a relative term.
jmurph wrote: Yeah, the "I am Negan" thing is a neat angle. It seems like the Hilltop group may not know who Negan is after all.
"Same Boat" has convinced me that the safest characters are those captured and tied up. Worked for Morgan, the Wolf, Jesus, Carol and Maggie, etc.
Also "Meet us on the killing floor" was an awesome line.
Why are they not "good guys"? Because they proactively eliminate threats? Should they have walked up to them and said "Hai guys let's be friends!"? Don't forget that Negan and crew usually kill someone to introduce themselves and beat a 16 year old to death in front of the Hilltop group to make a point. The last episode made it pretty clear Paula wasn't going to trade Maggie and Carol back and would kill the Alexandria group at the first opportunity.
Let's put it this way, in the reality of the show, would you want to run into Rick and crew? They generally don't kill for sport and try to take people in where they can, after all. Or one of the other groups? Good is a relative term.
Well, where I come from, "good guys" don't traditionally launch sneak attacks to murder people in their sleep. Those particular Saviors hadn't even done anything to cross Rick and company. There's really nothing redeeming about their actions in this case, even on a relative scale.
Having said that, Rick and crew are the protagonists of the show, and so they're certainly the "best" guys that we're going to get. Part of this turn to darkness and bad*ssery though is to
Spoiler:
set the crew up for a fall when they meet Lucille and realize that they're NOT the biggest mutherfethers out there.
So, on the character death pool front...
Spoiler:
...does this ep suggest that Carol will survive the season finale, having just survived a probable death scenario? Or is it just another episode of meaty stuff for that character as part of her sendoff? Looks like she's in next week's ep too. It will be interesting...and I still think that Daryl isn't 100% safe.
Also next week, it appears Abraham and Eugene will be out patrolling together. Oh dear. That might start the culling...
Oh...I thought it was a strong episode. Reminded me of a stage play, with the limited cast and set. The two Saviors were interesting mirror images of Carol and Maggie.
Well, where I come from, "good guys" don't traditionally launch sneak attacks to murder people in their sleep. Those particular Saviors hadn't even done anything to cross Rick and company. There's really nothing redeeming about their actions in this case, even on a relative scale.
Isn't that exactly what special forces troops do? I have no problem with it - they were just (orky style)and getting their retaliation in first
Also the Saviours previously tried to kidnap and rob Abraham and co and then were about to kill them in cold blood - so technically they started it - even more previously shooting up their vehicle.
You're forgetting that these Saviours that Rick orchestrated a surprise attack on were a part of a much larger group, several members of whom had already attacked members of Ricks group.
The Saviours initiated hostilities, not Rick, and then Rick learned that the Saviours have a reputation for terrorizing communities. They were already enemies at this point, even if the rest of the Saviours did not yet know who killed their bikers.
Rick was simply being proactive in eliminating a known hostioe threat.
Its like Terminus. If Rick, Daryl, Michonne and Carl had found evidence that the Terminus cannibals were holding prisoners and killing people before they revealed themselves, don't you think they would have gone in guns blazing? The people hadn't done anything to cross Rick at that point, but he knew that they were a hostile threat.
...does this ep suggest that Carol will survive the season finale, having just survived a probable death scenario? Or is it just another episode of meaty stuff for that character as part of her sendoff? Looks like she's in next week's ep too. It will be interesting...and I still think that Daryl isn't 100% safe.
Also next week, it appears Abraham and Eugene will be out patrolling together. Oh dear. That might start the culling...
Spoiler:
I had the opposite opinion. I think carol finally showed weakness and with actually talking about her husband and daughter, I think she's heading for her comic book ending. after lucille get's to play baseball, I think carol gets her "hug"
Rick's Crew is as 'good' a 'good guy' as you're going to get in this post-apocalyptic 'The Survivors are the Real Monsters' world that the show is set in!
I'll agree though that the crew is certainly taking a darker turn.
Interesting that Carol seems to be wanting to change.
Is she - gasp! - trying to become some sort of moral compass?
They've already beaten us over the head (heh - pun intended!) with what happens to Moral Compasses...
An excellent episode. Dark but with the contrast that still shows Rick's group mostly runs with the light. This season has been HUGE on alternate people. We've seen Alternate Rick, Glen, Maggie, Daryl, and Carol. I might have missed someone, it's be easier to notice if it wasn't week to week with a 2 month break in between
I love Carol. I love that even when she is having a moral issue (which she clearly does) she's planning and plotting how to get out of it. She was genuinely trying to save those people if only to save herself the pain of killing them herself. The "I hope not" line was beautifully delivered.
I find it interesting that all the women seemed to be out on patrol (Paula's group and the female that showed up at the end) and none of them were in the station (at least I don't remember a woman being shot in the station).
This episode did highlight for me how little we get to see of some of the truly great people they've got on this show. Maggie was pretty light on the ground this season up to this point, Carol practically non-existant, and Aaron the same. That doesn't include the limited time for people like Sasha, Abraham, Eugene, and even Daryl to a lesser extent. The cast is amazing but there are so many good ones it's hard to get quality screentime for them.
I'm still calling Abraham or Carol getting Lucilled. Abraham is one of the few non 1st/2nd seasoners that will get an actual reaction and Carol still seems to be coming to the end of her arc. I think Tara can go too but that's mostly because she eats screen time that could be given to more preferred characters for me
Alpharius wrote: It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?
Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.
Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: You're forgetting that these Saviours that Rick orchestrated a surprise attack on were a part of a much larger group, several members of whom had already attacked members of Ricks group.
The Saviours initiated hostilities, not Rick, and then Rick learned that the Saviours have a reputation for terrorizing communities. They were already enemies at this point, even if the rest of the Saviours did not yet know who killed their bikers.
Rick was simply being proactive in eliminating a known hostioe threat.
Its like Terminus. If Rick, Daryl, Michonne and Carl had found evidence that the Terminus cannibals were holding prisoners and killing people before they revealed themselves, don't you think they would have gone in guns blazing? The people hadn't done anything to cross Rick at that point, but he knew that they were a hostile threat.
I'm not forgetting gak. I clearly remember that the guys who ambushed Daryl, Sasha and Abraham are smears on the road and not the same individuals who got knives in their ears. Besides, maybe the crew on bikes were going to kill D, S and A, and maybe they weren't. We know they wanted to take their stuff. We also know that the bunch at the station asked for the head of Gregory -- who, to be fair, has shown himself to be a reprehensible d*ck. And most of all, Rick and company are really doing this because of the compensation they'll receive -- "this is how we eat."
So based on that, you think Rick and company still have the high moral ground after killing everyone associated with those guys in their sleep? Keep in mind here that Rick and company DON'T KNOW the full picture with the Saviors...their actions were based on a very limited amount of info.
The writers are *clearly* making a point here in every way short of flashing neon lights -- "you're not the good guys" -- so I don't know why you're trying so hard to whitewash their actions. Rick and company are doing some *bad* things. Maybe it's in the name of their survival, and maybe they're a helluva lot better bunch to deal with than the Saviors, but they're definitely down in the muck. And the worst part (and probably the writers' intent) is that...
Spoiler:
...no one will really be able to argue with Negan after he offs some of Rick's crew and introduces at least one to Lucille as repayment for the deaths of umpteen of his people.
Rick and company will have had it coming. And that sucks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: This episode did highlight for me how little we get to see of some of the truly great people they've got on this show. Maggie was pretty light on the ground this season up to this point, Carol practically non-existant, and Aaron the same. That doesn't include the limited time for people like Sasha, Abraham, Eugene, and even Daryl to a lesser extent. The cast is amazing but there are so many good ones it's hard to get quality screentime for them.
We'll also soon meet someone who has a BIG personality and will command plenty of screen time going into next season. So yeah...there's gonna be a culling a-coming soon.
Alpharius wrote: It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?
Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.
Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)
Whining?
Don't just blithely dismiss the comic out of hand. Eugene is on almost the exact same character arc that he was in the comic. A deceitful coward who uses his intelligence to trick others into escorting him safely to Alexandria where his deceit is exposed, but he's forgiven and eventually proves himself to be a valuable member of the group. Its in this conflict with the Saviours that Eugene finally proves his worth. Do you really think anyone else in Alexandria or the Hilltop knows how to
Spoiler:
manufacture bullets?
Yes, the TV show often diverges from the comics, but unlike Andrea whose character diverged from the comics very early on, there has been no indication so far that Eugene has/is going to diverge. Hell, the only significant divergence I can think of is that Eugene actually had the balls to join the fight with the herd.
Alpharius wrote: It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?
Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.
Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)
Well, unfortunately for you, it's a show with a large cast and every character may not be your absolute favorite. You seem to have the same issues with Game of Thrones not being the Daenerys show, so maybe the issue isn't with the writing or actors.
I'm actually enjoying Eugene's story arc. I liked that he gathered the courage to join the fight with the herd - IIRC, thats a big difference from the comics. If the show follows the comic, he's going to be pivotal in the conflict with the Saviours. The thing with Eugene is that he's not an action hero. He uses his intelligence to contribute in much more subtle ways, but which are just as critical to Alexandria's survival as the heroics of action heroes like Rick, Daryl and Abraham. But subtlety isn't very exciting, especially if all you want from a show is low brow zombie action heroes.
Eugene's the sort of guy who can fix radios, manufacture...
Alpharius wrote: It is starting to sound as if your friend wants to watch an hour long 'drama' with a bunch of zombies shambling around?
Nope - not at all - She really dislikes Abraham after his "I thought you were the last woman on earth - but your not" dumping line.
Eugene - we just feel that he is taking up precious tv time that actually interesting characters (Carol, Aeron for instance) could have - and yeah before people whine on and on about how important he is in the comic - YES I do know but this is not the comic - see Andrea as the best example of this.....(or worst)
Whining?
Don't just blithely dismiss the comic out of hand. Eugene is on almost the exact same character arc that he was in the comic. A deceitful coward who uses his intelligence to trick others into escorting him safely to Alexandria where his deceit is exposed, but he's forgiven and eventually proves himself to be a valuable member of the group. Its in this conflict with the Saviours that Eugene finally proves his worth. Do you really think anyone else in Alexandria or the Hilltop knows how to
Spoiler:
manufacture bullets?
Yes, the TV often diverges from the comics, but unlike Andrea whose character diverged from the comics very early on, there has been no indication so far that Eugene has/is going to diverge. Hell, the only significant divergence I can think of is that Eugene actually had the balls to join the fight with the herd.
FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............
It might turn out the same - it might not - We specifically don't want it to as we don't like him.
Well, unfortunately for you, it's a show with a large cast and every character may not be your absolute favorite. You seem to have the same issues with Game of Thrones not being the Daenerys show, so maybe the issue isn't with the writing or actors.
Or its just a thread where opinions are being expressed..................I recall your hatred of Dany and desire to make it just the I love Jon Snow and friends universe - see I can do it too............
I'd say it's a portion of doing it to get fed and a portion of not having what happened with the Wolves happening again. I think there are a lot of things involved with the direction Rick's group has taken. But to me, they are still the good guys.
The Saviors on the road were seconds away from blasting Abraham and Sasha (well, at least Abraham) before that rocket caught them. We've been told they introduce themselves by murdering a member of the populace (believable based on the road encounter, especially since that leader said as much too). This group out of hand murdered 2 people on delivery run, kept one hostage, and sent another back to bring them the head of the community leader because they felt the delivery was light.
Add in our actual meetings with people in this group. The mentality of "You produce for US" they seem to live by.
It all adds up to a group where compromise is unlikely and where bloodshed and slaughter are far more likely. Taking the first step when you've witnessed how these things go doesn't seem dark to me. It seems reasonable. Even if it has the added bonus of keeping Alexandria fed.
Unlike the people we saw last night I genuinely think Rick would have kept his word for the trade. I also think Carol was genuine in trying to keep her captors alive at the expense of everything except her life or maggies. Glen saves kids and brings them home. Daryl is willing to stick his neck out for people he newly meets (though he's going thru his own crisis right now). The group as a whole is a wholesome a group you're going to find in the apocalypse. gak, they even have open forums for discussion on policy decisions.
They are still the good guys. Killing killers in their sleep to me doesn't move the bar from good guys to bad guys.
FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............
The only whining in this thread is someone complaining that he wants all the characters he dislikes to be killed off...Hell, Carol was useless early on, and look how she turned out. Nobody is complaining about her now. Carol was given the chance to develop and grow as a character. And I think Eugene should be given that chance too. If that offends you...cry me a river.
Or its just a thread where opinions are being expressed..................
Except that you're not just expressing an opinion. You're saying "I don't like this character so I want him to be killed off". Thats naturally going to tick people off who DO like him, and its hardly a friendly way to start off a discussion. Especially if you pre-emptively disregard other people's opinions on the mere basis of "I don't like him and I want the show to go my way. If you disagree you can feth off".
I recall your hatred of Dany and desire to make it just the I love Jon Snow and friends universe - see I can do it too............
As a side note, Jon Snow and Dany are two of my favourite characters (the third being Arya). So I'm not taking a side on that.
FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............
The only whining in this thread is someone complaining that he wants all the characters he dislikes to be killed off...Hell, Carol was useless early on, and look how she turned out. Nobody is complaining about her now. Carol was given the chance to develop and grow as a character. And I think Eugene should be given that chance too. If that offends you...cry me a river.
...
.
Why would anyone have characters they dislike in any show????
Sorry if expressing a view is so offensive - like you said cry me a fking river
FFS - I said I know the bloody comic back to front - and every time anyone dares to mention anything negative about that fat useless F - we get this..............
The only whining in this thread is someone complaining that he wants all the characters he dislikes to be killed off...Hell, Carol was useless early on, and look how she turned out. Nobody is complaining about her now. Carol was given the chance to develop and grow as a character. And I think Eugene should be given that chance too. If that offends you...cry me a river.
...
Why would anyone have characters they dislike in any show????
Sorry if expressing a view is so offensive - like you said cry me a fking river
Because this show is not about "Mr Morden's every want and desire".
Other people have differing opinions, and may like characters that you dislike. And vice versa. If you have a problem with that? Might be best to stay off the internet.
It might also be a good time to remember RULE #1 here too.
****
I still don't think that Negan will be playing baseball with any female member of the group - and not just because of how he...handled himself in the comic.
It still feels as if the 'Carol Coming to the End of her Arc' thing is a fakeout/bait and switch.
Mr Morden wrote: Or its just a thread where opinions are being expressed..................I recall your hatred of Dany and desire to make it just the I love Jon Snow and friends universe - see I can do it too............
Actually, I don't "hate" Daenerys. For one thing, I have trouble getting strong feelings up for a fictional person. For another, the TV character is much more likeable that the book version. It's possible that I've said things in the past to get a rise out of you or other "Team Daenerys" types, but that's about the extent of it.
I dunno. Everyone has favorite characters, but I don't think I'm "Team" anyone to where I get attached to and elevate a particular character over the series/movie/book/whatever itself. But obviously there are people who feel differently. I just have a hard time understanding them. *shrug*
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Alpharius wrote: It might also be a good time to remember RULE #1 here too.
****
I still don't think that Negan will be playing baseball with any female member of the group - and not just because of how he...handled himself in the comic.
It still feels as if the 'Carol Coming to the End of her Arc' thing is a fakeout/bait and switch.
Morgan is still my number one candidate there...
Only 3 episodes left!!!
I'm also sticking with Morgan for the reasons we've discussed. But I'm not sure that anyone other than Rick and Carl is 100% safe, and think we could see something even more dramatic for the season ender. IIRC...
Spoiler:
...comics Negan killed Glenn in part as repayment for the Saviors Rick and company killed. But haven't show Rick and company killed a lot more Saviors? We're fixated on who will get the Lucille treatment, and that will almost certainly be just one person. But I'm wondering if more might die in that encounter, and Carol could figure prominently there.
They've been hitting the "Carol = protective mother" drum mightily heavily lately, especially in regards to Maggie. So maybe her presence (sacrifice?) at that fateful meeting helps spare Glenn and Maggie somehow. It'd potentially be a good, noble, and fitting death for the character, and add real impact to Negan's arrival that might otherwise be a little lacking if it's "only" Morgan who dies. Morgan makes a ton of story sense, but doesn't carry the right gut punch, no matter how brutal that scene is. So maybe you fix that with the death of more than one character.
Yeah, if you need a gut punch Morgan isn't it. I think he will die but his death will be almost overshadowed by whoever they do off that has actual value to the viewer.
Honestly I'm a little sad with Morgan if he does go because he feels like a wasted opportunity. He was brilliant in the first episode and on "Clear". He was pretty awesome early on even if he didn't kill but it's tiring watching him get more people than Noah killed.
I also like that they inflated the enemy numbers by allowing Rick and crew to clear out around 2 dozen of them (maybe more) at the station plus the 6-8 that were taken out on the road. It shows how solid Rick's crew is but at the same time is going to double back hard when you realize the scope of the threat.
It could also possibly play into the idea that the surprise attack of that magnitude went a long way toward leveling the playing field which would have ended up with Alexandria gone in a day if it hadn't happened.
Yup, they are pulling some straight up commando stuff now. Just remember that the good guys aren't always nice guys. The last episode gave some great contrasts, though, in the form of the dialogue between the captors and captives. Paula losing count of how many she had killed while Carol knows every one. Rick trying to trade hostages and end the blood shed while the Survivors were quite willing to cut (the hostages) and run. The shared father moment between Maggie and her captor. Really, it was the humanizing of these captors that really made it work. Nobody really cares when mook #3 gets eaten by zombies. Even the burning killing floor had far less impact (is that gasoline I smell?) than the women's deaths because they were just some guys and an imminent threat.
And, yes, I think the show is doing it's best to build up the karna debt to be paid for ruthlessness such as when Rick gunned down Primo. Those who balk at what Rick and crew have done, I think, are going to have their eyes opened when Negan enters the scene. Definitely a step up in plotting from the pointlessness that was Beth's death....
I think Gregory is actually Negan! And Jesus only thinks he's on the side of good (gonna be a mind-feth for him when he finds out). The actor cast as Negan? A false direction. And the saviors killed probably tried to betray Negan who was hiding in the open. He sent Rick and crew after them as a lesson.
Yakface's views on the midseason opener were very similar to mine so I won't rehash them. And honestly, the first half of this season was terrible in my opinion.
But this show has come roaring back and I'm enjoying immensely. I was gonna try to save it all to the end and binge it, but I had couple friends tell me basically "just give it another shot" and I'm glad I did. Really, really enjoying it.
So far the only glaring plot hole I've seen is Deanna's zombiefied corpse. Last we saw, she was upstairs in a house, surrounded by zombies, and she finished her revolver on the ones coming through the door instead of herself with a stupid scream. And yet her totally unmarred face and neck is somehow wandering outside the fence.
Totally small potatoes compared to the first half of the season and I can't wait for more goodness.
timetowaste85 wrote: I think Gregory is actually Negan! And Jesus only thinks he's on the side of good (gonna be a mind-feth for him when he finds out). The actor cast as Negan? A false direction. And the saviors killed probably tried to betray Negan who was hiding in the open. He sent Rick and crew after them as a lesson.
Not sure if serious...but sure you're seriously wrong!
timetowaste85 wrote: I think Gregory is actually Negan! And Jesus only thinks he's on the side of good (gonna be a mind-feth for him when he finds out). The actor cast as Negan? A false direction. And the saviors killed probably tried to betray Negan who was hiding in the open. He sent Rick and crew after them as a lesson.
Not sure if serious...but sure you're seriously wrong!
Any reason that couldn't happen? Clearly Negan and his crew are seriously in favor of misdirection. What greater misdirection could there be?
Alpharius wrote: It would be a waste of one of the more interesting (if too drawn out) storylines from the book, not to mention Jeffrey Dean Morgan.
Gregory is actually...Gregory.
The whole storyline so far with Hilltop and the Saviors demanding...Gregory's head?
Logic dictates that your version of events just won't be happening.
Though sure, I could absolutely be wrong!
Theres also the fact that the guards at the Satellite Array outpost were completely at ease. They weren't nervous traitors trying to orchestrate the murder of a leader known for his cunning and brutality.
Well, where I come from, "good guys" don't traditionally launch sneak attacks to murder people in their sleep. Those particular Saviors hadn't even done anything to cross Rick and company. There's really nothing redeeming about their actions in this case, even on a relative scale.
Isn't that exactly what special forces troops do? I have no problem with it - they were just (orky style)and getting their retaliation in first
.
That's how I justified the previous episode but this episode ends with Rick just straight up executing an unarmed prisoner. If this is an armed conflict then that's a war crime. We have to admit if any other group did that to one of the gang we would all consider that person a villain.
You will also notice that execution did not seem to sit well with members of the group, notably Carol.
We will see how they handle it, but it certainly was a brash instance of unnecessary brutality that seems to underscore Rick's growing callousness. (It also seems like a poor strategic move as he could have potentially been questioned, converted, offered as a future trade, etc.)
The difference between him and execution of a group member, of course is that we know the group are generally good guys and these guys generally aren't. Also, he wasn't a developed character, and mook executions never have the same effect as character deaths (see also Redshirt syndrome).
To be fair, the show has its own internal logic for why they don't let people live...it inevitably comes back to haunt them in a major way, no matter how improbable that might be.
Kinda like how they can't trust motor vehicles to not spontaneously break down at the absolute worst moments, although they seem to have moved beyond that in recent seasons.
I think part of the execution was because they can't allow anyone to get away who knows what happened (in case there are more). Part of it was also the way the guy started to act it didn't seem like recovery was part of his stick.
I also think it's interesting that there seems to be a mentality amongst Negan's group that makes it cult-like in their devotion to the idea. Similar to the wolves (and obviously more functional) but it's interesting how only a few of them seem to worry about dying and all of them seem to feel like they'll be avenged.
I may be off, but they've a few months of reprieve after the hoard attack in Alexandria... no? I only say this because at this point, Carl is up and walking around after being shot in the fething eye!
So, in that time, we see Carol getting somewhat acclimated to "domestictivity" (is that a word?), in that she's baking cookies... sharing with her neighbors... smootching that one dude.
Then, this last episode, "Carol 'da Terminator™" all of the sudden has some regret? remorse??? At first, I thought it was an act because she was captured (and snatched that rosary)...
But, when Maggie's "baby bun oven" get's slashed, Carol acted in Terminator fashion immediately... but, you could *see* the anguish in her face.
It's like, she fell into the trap of the pre-Apocalypse world for a while, and that the reality of the current situation comes hauntingly clear outside of Alexandria. The reality is simply this: It's all about survival.
whembly wrote: The reality is simply this:
It's all about survival.
There are no good/bad guys... really.
You just do what needs to be done to survive.
Well...right. Which is what the character has been doing the past few seasons, all at the cost of her soul. That's the problem. What good is survival if it means doing those kinds of deeds and becoming that kind of person?
Maggie's at the same point. Morgan learned this a while back. And heck, the whole crew was just about at that point before they found Alexandria. When you look at it that way, they could be setting Carol up for an ending like in the comic. But I don't think they'll go that route just because it'd end her arc in what could be seen as a moment of weakness, and the character deserves better.
Anyway, my new thought for the day is....
Spoiler:
...what if Glenn's faux death and all the teases (they've really been piling them on) represent a double fakeout, and he ends up meeting Lucille after all? That way, it'd actually be a gut punch to everyone.
I also think it's interesting that there seems to be a mentality amongst Negan's group that makes it cult-like in their devotion to the idea. Similar to the wolves (and obviously more functional) but it's interesting how only a few of them seem to worry about dying and all of them seem to feel like they'll be avenged.
It could be out of fear to. Everyone seems to say they're Negan automatically and quickly as if they are being tested. Perhaps Negan has groups of thugs that go out and make sure everyone says they are Negan. It could be a requirement for being in their "nation". This group of people may have thought Rick's gang of killers were actually Neganites testing them.
I just caught up on the recent series tonight. As usual I thoroughly enjoyed it, from the breakout via zombie guts to the attack on Negans group (really well done imo).
I hope Carol regains her mojo, I thought she was playing weak wolf for the last episode but then did the dirty; but at the end you see her break down again. Always loved her stoicism and resolves Vs some of the other (weaker characters) and hope this isnt a trend into "abused carol" ala series 3 :(
Love Jesus too (sneaky ninja guy), he could become a great character if they play him out
I thought Abraham was going to get Abrahamed - until Denise did!
The loss of their 'doctor' is going to hurt...
Yeah, they definitely gave the comics fans the ol' switcheroo on that one. So is that a hint that another big switcheroo is on the way? Or are they trying to throw the comics fans off and have things proceed as in the comic?
The Alpha Legion might be writing the show at this point...
Carol leaving makes perfect sense...although it's not what I expected. Kinda seems like it's headed for another Terminus situation.
I also thought it was a interestingly-shot episode.
On the face of it, it looks like they're setting up Carol for the encounter with Lucille. But a Terminus re-run with Carol coming to the rescue would be fun.
yeah, over all this was an episode that lacked the visual excitement of a lot of the other episodes, but It made up for it in character/plot development, which is needed to keep the pace changing.
They did a really good job of showing how time is passing and people are adapting.
Carol leaving will come back to save or haunt the group, the DR wont be missed much i think, I really hope abraham stays alive permanently as I hated how he just died in the comics.
Abraham is, oddly, turning into one of the stress relief characters of the series. It's something they don't have much of and his relationship with Eugene really only highlights it. How many other characters would apologize by telling Eugene he sure knows how to bite a dick? I love Abraham and his attitude so I'm hoping he doesn't go anywhere anytime soon.
I was terrified for Daryl thinking he had been captured and was going to get the bat for a few seconds there but it's still shaping up for Carol to get it. So while she can't kill for people anymore maybe she can still die for them.
I really enjoyed the episode. And the last shots were amazing.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: On the face of it, it looks like they're setting up Carol for the encounter with Lucille. But a Terminus re-run with Carol coming to the rescue would be fun.
I was thinking a crazy thought.
Spoiler:
What if Carol takes Carl's role from the comics and tries to kill Negan, but he likes her moxy, etc?
That'd be a weird twist from the comics.
Been a while since I've been impatient for the next episode. Really liking how they're handling the Saviors so far-they're making them out to be more than just mooks.
That was a really difficult episode for me to watch/swallow. It felt way more like a cheesy horror movie where I spent half the time screaming at the characters on the screen to stop making such stupid decisions that were totally out of character with how they normally behave.
They did a good job setting up why Carol would want to leave, but last episode established that the Saviors know where Alexandria is. That means everyone there would believe that there is a high likelihood that *anybody* leaving those walls would be tracked and potentially ambushed if the group leaving is small enough.
So even though Carol is totally motivated to leave, it flies against everything we've known about her (good common sense) to put herself in a position where she will most likely be captured by the Saviors and then used to barter with her people (and a good chance of getting some of her friends killed in the process).
Then the idea Daryl would be so motivated to avenge Denise to ignore this fact as well? Followed by Glenn, Michonne & Rosita? And then Rick and Morgan?
Puhlease.
Only Morgan, of all those, has had the motivations shown to make such a stupid move.
Worst of all...why are the Saviors suddenly the absolute masters of stealth? More than Daryl even when he was specifically looking to sneak up on them?
I mean, WTH? There are a million ways they could have had that play out that ended up in the same place but didn't make the characters we have grown to know as being street smart (woods smart?) with good common sense suddenly turn into total doofuses.
And I'm not going to even comment on the stupid fake-out 'death' at the end. It seems pretty clear to me that they originally shot it to be another stupid cliffhanger and then someone watching it in the editing room mentioned that maybe yet *another* death fake-out this season probably wouldn't go over that well and they added that last line in to try to soften the stupid initial decision.
I just don't understand it. If they wanted the characters to behave this way (head out randomly into the wilderness) there was no real reason to say last episode that the Saviors knew where Alexandria was (they could have still just been looking for the place). That way it wouldn't be such a big slap in the face for all our heroes to randomly ride out in small groups into the wilderness.
And of course they could have still had the heroes get abducted by the Saviors by the end of the show without them all being surprised like chumps...there could have been a small firefight where they killed a few Saviors but then got overwhelmed by their numbers, for example.
One of the executive producers on the show said on Talking Dead last night that we'll know what happened to Darryl next episode. Honestly, I can see the reason for shooting him the shoulder. The bad guy knows how dangerous he is and that doesn't count the fact that he escaped a similar situation earlier in the season, killed the dude holding him, and then proceeded to blow up yet more saviors with a rocket. A debilitating wound makes sense. Also makes escape by the others less reasonable as they'd have to haul a wounded Daryl.
That said Rick's leaving makes sense. He goes out because Carol, of all people outside of Michone and Carl, is family. That's the woman that made sure his baby made it thru after the prison fell and saved the rest of his family at terminus. She's also one of the few people Rick trusts implicitly.
Daryl's revenge makes sense to me. Remember Beth was kidnapped and that led to her death in his care (a blurred big brother role). He then tries to help people who turn on him and steal all his stuff. That dude later turns up to kill someone who obviously has taken under his care. Daryl is feeling the weight of failure (something he hasn't really dealt with on the show) and reacting slightly irrationally.
Rosita is feeling some of that responsibility but also probably wants to get the hell away from happy Abraham and Sasha. Glenn and Michonne (who are as efficient in the outside world as you could ask for outside of Daryl) tag along to keep family safe.
I kinda like the counter ambush at the end. I saw a dude making a fire and the prisoners and thought "Where is everyone else, seems to easy" and then it was. Bear in mind it would have been easy to get locked in a certain trail and a certain tell. And the fact the it's the same dudes group means they've been counter ambushed themselves and learned. Besides, we're still in Virginia. It isn't hard to imagine quite of a few people who made it thru and are out there bow hunt and know their way around the woods.
Overall I really liked the episode. Carol begging to not have to kill the Saviors was pretty great. Morgan coming around to not everyone having to do it his way was a nice change. I'm excited for next week even if I won't be able to watch it till Monday morning since I'll be driving home from Adepticon.
...Glenn on the chopping block, aren't they? I'm almost wavering on him being safe now, especially after the Maggie/rear view mirror shot. They could be trying to fake out the comics fans in a kind of narrative version of hiding something right out in the open.
Morgan is still my call to meet Lucille, mind you, although I also think we'll see more death to create the proper gut punch.
Its possible Morgan and Carol will go AWOL next week, and that particular loose end will be a plot hook to be resolved in Season 7.
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easysauce wrote: Yeah they really are doing a good job keeping everyone on their toes about who might die next!
At this point there are not many characters who could die without making an impact of some sort.
I really hope they continue to just kill off tertiary characters for a while though, I really do not want to lose any of the main characters.
No. For a show whose entire premise is survival, and how people grow and develop in extreme situations, they have to keep the stakes high, and they can't do that without actually killing off characters the audience cares about, to remind us that our "heroes" aren't invincible. That means one of the main characters - one of the core Atlanta 5, or some of the other core characters we've come to care about the most like Maggie, Abraham and Sasha.
Morgan I think is the best candidate for next in line to die (both in likely hood and my preferance) but I fear for Carol and Glenn.
Morgan would not be an adequate substitute, we just don't care enough (yet) for his death to be an emotional sucker punch. It has to be somebody we really care about, otherwise the show would not be doing the comics justice. The episode coming up is one of the THE biggest milestones in TWD, as important as The Governor beheading Tyreese/Hershel, or Dale/Bob being caught and eaten by the cannibals. You do not introduce THE greatest and most charismatic villain TWD has ever known (and probably will ever know) by having him kill a minor character instead.
It has to be either:
Rick Carl Daryl Carol Glenn Maggie Abraham Sasha Michonne Or maybe Rosita.
My money is on Carol - they're clearly building up to something big for her - ether death, or permanent self imposed exile (I can see her wandering off into the sunset).
Spoiler:
She's long dead by now, having committed suicide by Zombie at the prison. Perhaps she'll sacrifice herself to Negan in place of someone else like Carl, which would be a fitting send off for her character. She's still committing suicide, but in a way that stays true to her badass heroic character that the show has made her into.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rick and Carl are safe for the foreseeable future. Rick is the core protagonist, and Andrew Lincoln is the lead actor. They won't kill him off for at least another 2 or 3 seasons I think - he's got a long way to go, and a lot of comic book material and character development to get through.
Spoiler:
I can forsee Rick possibly (but still unlikely) being killed off at the end of the current comic book story arc involving the conflict with the Whisperers. He's guided his family and friends across the country to a safe haven in Washington, defended their new home against psychopaths and tyrants, helped rebuild a civilization of sorts linking many communities together, and now he's mobilizing an army to defeat a new threat.
They won't kill Carl off for a very long time if ever. Carl I think is being groomed to become Rick's successor. If they ever want to kill Rick off, or Andrew Lincoln wants to leave the show, Carl will become much more prominent and the new de facto protagonist. He's being exposed to and influenced by several different world views - Rick, Negan and the Whisperers. He's basically the young protege.
They won't kill Abraham off so soon after faking us out, and swapping him for Denise. Next season perhaps. Michonne is now Andrea for all intents and purposes. Maggie is safe. She's back in Alexandria, probably suffering a miscarriage. They've been foreshadowing and trolling us with Glenn that he's almost certainly safe. Daryl is a possibility, but he's just been shot by Dwight. Either he's already dead (in which case two deaths for next episode), or he's going to avoid the bat.
Oh, I think Morgan is a leading candidate. If he's the one to meet a certain lady, it works *beautifully* to inform the decision Rick makes down the road...AND the action taken thereafter. It's an improvement upon the comic in that regard, because it gives Rick a clearer basis for making that decision.
You can have Morgan meet the lady and still get an ample gut punch for the episode...it just requires more to happen. And they have 90 minutes to fill. Wouldn't it be a horrible twist if...
Spoiler:
Glenn survives, but Maggie starts hemorrhaging and dies in the absence of a doctor while "safe" behind Alexandria's walls? Or what if the baby dies and Carol meets her end in a horrible fashion? You can get to gut punch in a lot of different ways. I'm pretty sure that the show crew has killed many more Saviors than the book crew did at this point. Show Negan might want a little more in order to balance the scales.
Thats true. By this point in the comics, they'd only run into that one patrol, and killed just a handful of Saviours (the bikers that Daryl blows up). There was no raid on a Saviour outpost in the comics prior to Negan.
It seems like people expect the show to mirror the comics, but the truth is the more it progresses, the less and less like the comics it becomes.
There doesnt even have to be a single casualty, or more likely, they might just end up losing more then one person in the initial encounter with neegan.
Some very big differences right now between the two narratives
Spoiler:
we havnt even met the knight faction yet, darylls connection to the burnt faced saviour didnt exist, and this guy ends up being sympathetic to rick and crew in the end in the comics. I hope not, but to me, this indicates daryll might not be untouchable, and given that he might want to work in movies and such, he could die. unlikely, but its possible.
Actually the "Knights" weren't introduced until after Negan made his appearence. IIRC. The show is not deviating from the comics in that regard.
Spoiler:
meeting Ezekiel is what renews Rick's confidence after Glenn's murder - learning that there are more allies, and that they'll outnumber and defeat the Saviours if all 3 communities can work together.
Daryl did not exist in the comics at all, never mind lacking a connection with Dwight.
Spoiler:
The reason they had Daryl encounter Dwight early was a origin story of sorts for Dwight, explaining how his face came to be burned by Negan as a punishment for trying to desert the Saviours with his wife; and giving an early indication of his motivations. Dwight was always a reluctant member of Negan's gang, and having him encoutner Daryl showed us why on screen.
Its not deviating from the comics at all on that count, either. Rather, they're just adding to and embellishing on it.
The show is actually following the comics fairly closely once again. Not in the details, like exactly who dies and when, but rather the overall arc. There are still the same major events, but the show switches it around a lot, killing off character B in Character A's place, bringing a particular event forward in the timeline or postponing it until later, merging characters together or killing off a character early and splitting the rest of that character's arc between multiple characters (killing Andrea early and splitting her parts between Michonne and Sasha).
Season 1 and 2 were big deviations. Season 3 and 4 up until the point when the prison fell had a lot of original material and storylines to fill the season out, but the overall arc was roughly the same. And again in the latest season, we're seeing the same events from the comics, just mixed around a bit and characters swapped to keep readers guessing.
Its actually a pretty good adaptation. A better adaptation than Game of Thrones, certainly. (a show I also love but is quickly becoming unrecognisable).
Daryl did not exist in the comics at all, never mind lacking a connection with Dwight.
Spoiler:
The reason they had Daryl encounter Dwight early was a origin story of sorts for Dwight, explaining how his face came to be burned by Negan as a punishment for trying to desert the Saviours with his wife; and giving an early indication of his motivations. Dwight was always a reluctant member of Negan's gang, and having him encoutner Daryl showed us why on screen.
I though Negan only
Spoiler:
used the iron on people if they dared to sleep with one of his 'wives' - even if she was previously your wife? Or did he use 'ironing' for punishment for a variety of crimes against Negan?
uses the iron to punish men who mess with Negan's "wives". Dwight and Sherry were married before the Outbreak, and they agreed that Sherry would "sell" herself to Negan for special privileges like food. But they continued their relationship in secret, and Negan found out.
The show expands on this by having Dwight and Sherry make an escape attempt. Thats when they run into Daryl, and decide to rob him because they're desperate to escape Negan's clutches. As I said, the show is not so much deviating from the comics here as it is embellishing.
That only makes sense if you look at the characters as archetypes rather then new identities that have superficial similarities to their doppelgangers from the comics.
Ie ricks relationship with andrea vs michonne, sure you could argue michonne is just copy pasted into that role due to superficial similarities, but its actually a huge deviation from the story in the comics. It has very far reaching implications, and I really think we only have broad superficial similarities between the comic and show at this point.
Saying that the differences are only in details is like saying a glass of water is similar to a glass of milk because the only difference being only what is contained in the container, making the container what is important rather then the content.
In much the same way, the large things that hold the story together (zombies happened, there is a group with rick, they survive things, they find the prison, the farm, alexandria, neegan, big things that contain the story stay the same) but the small things like ricks hand, the heavily modded governor arc, who is alive vs dead, who is doing what and with whom, all has changed significantly.
There is also a lot of things behind the scenes that are different, the writer will be much less willing to kill off "MAIN" main characters then in the comics. The plot armour that rick and carl have in the books is extended to a lot of people in the show it wasnt on in the comics.
My money is still on morgan getting killed in the scene we all predict, likely to save carol or someone else.
runners up being carol, sasha, or abraham.
Then there is always the chance it is glenn, which I just hope wont happen, they keep tugging at us on that one
(the scene where he watches maggie in the side view mirror had a very last look-esque appeal to it, probably a fake out, but who knows!)
Personally I've never been that invested in Glenn. He just survives things, and that's about it(granted I skipped seasons 2 and 3 and a lot of 4 I think, so there may have been some development I missed).
Yes, I'm talking about the macro scale, the bigger picture. You're nitpicking over details, the micro scale. Of course the details are different, events are happening to different people, people die at different times and in different ways, characters are merged and split. But overall the show is still following the rough path laid out by the comics, which I'm mostly satisfied with.
As for Michonne and Rick...that's not really as much of a deviation as you might think. Michonne is being substituted for Andrea, and Rick is probably being substituted for E. Of course that means the nature of their relationship is going to be different, but they're still checking off the major milestones from the comics.
Its a long, long way off yet but when this conflict with the saviours is resolved, I expect she'll still
Spoiler:
run off and become a pirate like she did in the comics, estranging her from Rick instead of Ezekiel.
Sinful Hero wrote: Personally I've never been that invested in Glenn. He just survives things, and that's about it(granted I skipped seasons 2 and 3 and a lot of 4 I think, so there may have been some development I missed).
I wouldn't be sad to see him go to bat.
Spoiler:
I dont know about him "just surviving things" is really his defining trait, although to your credit, in the show the writers are *very* much aware that a significant portion of their viewers have read the comic so they deliberately toy with Glenn's death to the point where it became a trope. This is what I say when I mean Rick and Carl's plot armour has been extended to Daryl, Michonne, Glenn, and likely Eugene for at least the foreseeable future.
All of the cast survive things to the extent that they are all crazy lucky to be alive at this point, Glenn has a personality to him though and is probably the character that retained the most humanity the longest. He still goes through the motions of a civilization (his attitude the first few seasons, his wedding/ring arc, ect) that no longer exists but he also is one of the first to ensure his real actions are ones done to survive in the world as they now know it (first to scavenge with any real skill, generally pragmatic, effective, and logical).
His character is a believable one if not the most exciting.
I'm curious, who is everyone's favorite character?
In the book I would say Rick hands down, the show Glenn or Daryll.
Glenn gets the bat. Carol gets together with Ezekiel(eventually). Maggie loses the baby.
Any other bets?
Agree, disagree, unsure.
Spoiler:
I'm thinking carol's about to go hug a walker like she did in the comics. I'd predict the man who's following her with the rosary beads, dies, and keeps heading her way, carol sees the walker with the beads and goes in for a hug. I can't imagine why they'd have maggie lose her baby when they went out of the way to keep judith. But then again since they kept judith they might not want another baby on the set.
Alpharius wrote: Glenn's 'fakeout death' was...not well received.
So, maybe they're trying to have it both ways?
Ya probably. Wanted to have the fakeout death, remembered "The Glenn Incident", chickened out and added "He'll be fine" to the ending.
Failing to recognize it wasn't really the fakeout about Glenn that irritated everyone but rather his preposterous survival.
Is anyone else having trouble with the anticipation to Sunday night?
I heard one actor was doing certain property hand-changing...spoilered who it is. Click if you really feel the need. Don't say I didn't warn you. This WAS on the radio though, and it's April Fools Day. So salt.
Don't recall if I've mentioned it yet ITT but I recently learned that my 80+ year old grandmother watches The Walking Dead. That was an unexpected conversation.
Im a bit disappointed they're going down another uber bad guy route with negan (ala the govenor again).
Would have preferred more of a move in the story like a government cure angle or even a new style/breed of zombie to deal with.
Are they locked into sticking diligently to the comic book arcs or?
Well, most of us have heard enough about the comics to recognize that Negan is the ultimate blight on our crew in this universe. Taking him away would cheapen the show. Most of us realize what's coming, just not who it'll come to. And the after effects of S7 will have potential to be a rough fallout. With how much reporting on how badly this episode bothered, hurt and disturbed the cast, who are CLEARLY invested in their characters, you know it's going to end VERY badly tonight.
We're only on Season 6, but yes, your point is a good one - I think more bad things will be happening in the finale than we're possibly anticipating!
As for comic book arcs on TV:
Executive producer David Alpert said in 2014, that the original comics have given them enough ideas for Rick Grimes and company over the next seven years. "I happen to love working from source material, specifically because we have a pretty good idea of what Season 10 is gonna be", Alpert said. "We know where seasons 11 and 12 [will be]... we have benchmarks and milestones for those seasons if we're lucky enough to get there."
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Lemme guess. They ended the episode the moment Negan was introduced and we don't get to see Lucille in action, leaving it for next seasons premiere?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Lemme guess. They ended the episode the moment Negan was introduced and we don't get to see Lucille in action, leaving it for next seasons premiere?
Please tell me thats not the case.
You can obviously tell Lucille is in use, but you don't know on who...until next season!!! Wooo!!!
Negan kills somebody. There is a death. We don't know who. But there is rumor online that somebody slowed down the audio and separated it, and they could hear Lauren Cohen screaming the loudest, and Stephen Yeun trying to gargle out Maggie's name. Rumor. Not fact.
I wish they changed the ending so we knew who it was. But it's ACTUALLY a smart ending; and here's why. If you love the character who died, and you're invested, you might call it quits. But because you don't know, you're coming back next season to find out. It's a business. It's ratings. It upsets us all. But it forces us back. We NEED to know. It's necessary for who we are. Sure, a small handful of people will be pissed enough to leave. But barely anyone will do that. 99.99999% of the viewers are going to be there at zero-hour come season 7. You don't have to like it. Hell, I don't. But I understand it.
I like what they're doing with Gabriel. Its only been in the last few issues of the comics (set over two years after the current season of the show) that he's been stepping up and learning to fight to help defend Alexandria. We barely saw him for like 60 odd issues in the comics.
Show Gabriel is definitely an improvement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like they're setting up Eugene as a candidate with that touching moment with Rick and Abraham.
"I didn't think you could handle it. I was wrong. You're a survivor".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think its Eugene. They've effectively made him disposable, now that he's given the bullet recipe to Rick.
I think it's actually Abraham. The touching goodbyes, the kid talk with Sasha, he's already supposed to be dead...yeah. I think he's getting the bat (will that replace the term "getting the axe"?).
timetowaste85 wrote: I think it's actually Abraham. The touching goodbyes, the kid talk with Sasha, he's already supposed to be dead...yeah. I think he's getting the bat (will that replace the term "getting the axe"?).
It will now.
And yes, it may well could be Abraham too. In fact its probably more likely to be him.
timetowaste85 wrote: I think it's actually Abraham. The touching goodbyes, the kid talk with Sasha, he's already supposed to be dead...yeah. I think he's getting the bat (will that replace the term "getting the axe"?).
It will now.
And yes, it may well could be Abraham too. In fact its probably more likely to be him.
By that logic, it's just as likely to be Glenn since he's supposed to be dead now too.
Sticking with my prior prediction that it's Glenn- has just the right amount of emotional impact to break Rick's crew to bring them to heel.
timetowaste85 wrote: I think it's actually Abraham. The touching goodbyes, the kid talk with Sasha, he's already supposed to be dead...yeah. I think he's getting the bat (will that replace the term "getting the axe"?).
I tend to agree. Too many "soft" moments lately for the big lug. I think he got it...and took it like a champ! And that sets Sasha up to do something later on. But who knows? The whole "Glenn gurgling Maggie's name" thing is silly...it seems pretty clear that they didn't shoot who died yet. The cast probably doesn't even know.
Regarding the ending...well...it's just a reminder that TWD is in fact a television show, and subject to all the games that television networks play. They're always looking for the next "Who shot J.R.?" It is what it is.
I could nitpick some stuff about the episode, but really the only thing that matters is who was introduced, and I thought Jeffrey Dean Morgan did a good job in the role. I thought the F-bombs were missed, but otherwise I thought he pulled off that charismatic/menacing thing that Negan needs to have. I'm looking forward to seeing him more in the role.
I'm really starting to think they're keeping Abraham around as comic relief. Right now he and Eugene are the only one's who can really pull it off, and there have been more than a few times they needed some levity.
Didn't watch it yet, but I knew they were gonna make it a cliffhanger, just because it's TV and they can. And I bet they won't even start off with it in the next season premiere, they'll probably do a "history of negan" episode just to annoy people and make us wait.
One of the crazier theories out there is that this is a deliberate attempt to gauge audience reactions to ANY of the 10 people lined up there getting whacked and THEN they'll figure out who Negan killed.
Finale was one long rolling panic attack for me Whoever got it, what a horrific way to go :(
From what I've read Glenn and Daryl are the forerunners but thats pure intwerwebz chatter.
One of the crazier theories out there is that this is a deliberate attempt to gauge audience reactions to ANY of the 10 people lined up there getting whacked and THEN they'll figure out who Negan killed.
Seems crazy to me, but then, who knows?
Very interesting theory actually.
I havent read the comic book angles and obviously Ricks crew have been in terrible sitations before (VS a tank with the govenor and chained up over the bath tub at the end of Terminus) but how on Earth do they get out of this one?!
Alpharius wrote: One of the crazier theories out there is that this is a deliberate attempt to gauge audience reactions to ANY of the 10 people lined up there getting whacked and THEN they'll figure out who Negan killed.
Seems crazy to me, but then, who knows?
I'm waiting to see who writes down the names of the line up, then tick them off in tune with eenie, meenie, miney, moe. If Negan repeated the same order as he went, we could have a educated guess on who it was. I'm shocked a prediction like this wasn't on my FB page today I'd google it, but that ending just really irritated me. After the start of the season playing 'where's glen' and ending it, with who got the bat, I find myself just not caring.
Super weak episode all around. Ninja fast roadblocks? Loud fights and conversations with no walkers showing up? Contrived cliffhanger/actor contract negation scene?
That would be a really, *really*, poor way for that character to go given the way things go in the comics.
Spoiler:
It'd be more appropriate for him to go like he does in the comics. The big soldier guy who'll be a real asset in the war to come goes out leading a patrol. "Ooh look baddies! Get some! *Thunk*
Arrow to the head out of nowhere. Dead within a panel.
Heh, even the writer didn't see it coming when he wrote it. I'm not sure the Tv series would be prepared to go that route though. They tend to build up their deaths a lot more. That'd be an awesome scene if they did it though.
jmurph wrote: Super weak episode all around. Ninja fast roadblocks? Loud fights and conversations with no walkers showing up? Contrived cliffhanger/actor contract negation scene?
It had it all, I guess....
Sasha noted something important.
The roadblocks weren't all being done by the same people. It stands to reason that given Negan's crew seemed to be watching both The Hilltop and Alexandria(remember the previous episode how they claimed Carol was lying, since they saw her leave Alexandria?) they knew there was a bit of interaction between the two camps. If you saw an RV moving out from Alexandria it's a good bet it's headed to the only other camp that the Alexandrians have interacted with, The Hilltop.
jmurph wrote: Super weak episode all around. Ninja fast roadblocks? Loud fights and conversations with no walkers showing up? Contrived cliffhanger/actor contract negation scene?
It had it all, I guess....
Sasha noted something important.
The roadblocks weren't all being done by the same people. It stands to reason that given Negan's crew seemed to be watching both The Hilltop and Alexandria(remember the previous episode how they claimed Carol was lying, since they saw her leave Alexandria?) they knew there was a bit of interaction between the two camps. If you saw an RV moving out from Alexandria it's a good bet it's headed to the only other camp that the Alexandrians have interacted with, The Hilltop.
Yeah, it wasn't that they were fast but that they have a ridiculous number of people.
Ratius wrote: I havent read the comic book angles and obviously Ricks crew have been in terrible sitations before (VS a tank with the govenor and chained up over the bath tub at the end of Terminus) but how on Earth do they get out of this one?!
Networking.
The Saviours are too powerful for Alexandria alone to defeat, but think about it. The Saviours terrorise many different communities. There are now surviving 3 communities on the show so far, Alexandria, the Hilltop and "The Kingdom" (not yet named or seen on the show, but its where Morgan and Carol are being escorted to).
That would be a really, *really*, poor way for that character to go given the way things go in the comics.
Spoiler:
It'd be more appropriate for him to go like he does in the comics. The big soldier guy who'll be a real asset in the war to come goes out leading a patrol. "Ooh look baddies! Get some! *Thunk*
Arrow to the head out of nowhere. Dead within a panel.
Heh, even the writer didn't see it coming when he wrote it. I'm not sure the Tv series would be prepared to go that route though. They tend to build up their deaths a lot more. That'd be an awesome scene if they did it though.
That would be a really, *really*, poor way for that character to go given the way things go in the comics.
It'd be more appropriate for him to go like he does in the comics. The big soldier guy who'll be a real asset in the war to come goes out leading a patrol. "Ooh look baddies! Get some! *Thunk*
Arrow to the head out of nowhere. Dead within a panel.
Heh, even the writer didn't see it coming when he wrote it. I'm not sure the Tv series would be prepared to go that route though. They tend to build up their deaths a lot more. That'd be an awesome scene if they did it though.
On the contrary, I think Abraham getting the bat is more heroic and fitting for a selfless former soldier like him. He squared up to Negan defiantly looking him in the eye, like he was daring Negan to pick him. I think Abraham wanted to be executed, he wanted to make that sacrifice to protect his friends.
That would be a really, *really*, poor way for that character to go given the way things go in the comics.
It'd be more appropriate for him to go like he does in the comics. The big soldier guy who'll be a real asset in the war to come goes out leading a patrol. "Ooh look baddies! Get some! *Thunk*
Arrow to the head out of nowhere. Dead within a panel.
Heh, even the writer didn't see it coming when he wrote it. I'm not sure the Tv series would be prepared to go that route though. They tend to build up their deaths a lot more. That'd be an awesome scene if they did it though.
On the contrary, I think Abraham getting the bat is more heroic and fitting for a selfless former soldier like him. He squared up to Negan defiantly looking him in the eye, like he was daring Negan to pick him. I think Abraham wanted to be executed, he wanted to make that sacrifice to protect his friends.
And that's why Negan won't give it to him. He wanted to make them suffer. Not make a martyr out of one of them. Bashing the head in of one of the weaker characters(Glenn) will fill that role perfectly.
That applies to Glenn too, possibly. Glenn tried to intervene when Negan threatened Maggie and received a beating for it. Glenn would be just as much of a martyr as Abraham. Though if Negan wanted to specifically hurt Maggie, killing Glenn would be the way to do it.
Out of all of them, Eugene is likely the weakest character.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something to tide everyone over till September.
Although I truly think it's Abraham...what if it was Maggie?? Do a 180 from the comics? Totally doable. They're saying its a truly beloved character. Eugene and Abraham are only loved characters as a dynamic duo. If they aren't both there, the one left won't work.
Rick and Carl are both 99% safe based on the "other eye" comment.
Daryl
Glenn
Maggie
Michone
Abraham
It's one of those 5. Anyone else won't have the effect. And even my belief in it being Abraham is shaky because he and Eugene both only exist as a team.
That would be a really, *really*, poor way for that character to go given the way things go in the comics.
Spoiler:
It'd be more appropriate for him to go like he does in the comics. The big soldier guy who'll be a real asset in the war to come goes out leading a patrol. "Ooh look baddies! Get some! *Thunk*
Arrow to the head out of nowhere. Dead within a panel.
Heh, even the writer didn't see it coming when he wrote it. I'm not sure the Tv series would be prepared to go that route though. They tend to build up their deaths a lot more. That'd be an awesome scene if they did it though.
I liked it. The entire episode was a pucker factor for me. The sheer effort to impress Alexandria with the hopelessness of their situation was very well done. Not the best episode of the season but up there. Though the entire second half was excellent TV.
As for the final scene they said on the Talking Dead none of the characters know who got the bat actually. While they filmed the entire scene there Neegan even though they were off camera (something that apparently doesn't happen, normally the people off camera would take the night off on most shows/movies) they weren't there for the actual bat scene since it's shot first person it was just Jeffery Dean Morgan.
I'd also like to say that I think the casting is excellent again. The Gov. was amazing and Neegan is definitely going to fly fairly high above him in my opinion. The dude they got to play him is just so damned likable that the almost cult like following for the crazy dude seems reasonable.
And I think that Eugene got Lucille'd. You would expect Abraham to take it like a champ. Rick isn't going to get hit. Aaron won't have any impact for Rick. And I don't think it's Glenn or Daryl. To much teasing with Glenn over the season and Daryl would be a tough sell to the audience but it's possible.
I think it's Eugene based on the Talking Dead conversation about how this starts the new story. Eugene impacts most members of the group as he's been there "kid" that is finally growing up. It also hurts Rick in the sense that he gets jolted out of not using all his possible resources as he doesn't seem to really think along the lines of knowledge and expansion anymore. But if not then Daryl or Glenn. I think Abraham is needed for a bit of levity and the actor playing him is solid. Plus it'll make the upcoming "war" make more sense if the "good" guys have a veteran soldier on their side.
I guess I am more skeptical that they even know who got the bat. Cast doesn't know so the writers can always change/fill it in later after contract negotiations, etc.
I don't put much by the "beloved" character angle. They would say that about any of the ensemble. All it really tells you is that it isn't random schmuck #3.
The episode just felt really stretched out and contrived to me. Carol's angle is super unbelievable and really erodes some good development. And while it introduced another faction (good thing), they looked ridiculous.
The road blocks had some issues. I am just going to assume they blocked all the roads to Hilltop, though it seemed odd that they couldn't just double back and pick off the smaller initial crew from the flank. In the open roadway, it would have been a slaughter from the higher treeline.
The first roadblock was the same group as the tree fall. Presumably they drove there after the group left the first site.
The numbers where enormous, and it seemed awfully convenient they had their circle right where the crew were walking through the woods. Yet, despite that, they all seemed to have bats, not guns out, in the final scene which means some quickly applied gun fire would have been disastrous. I guess they were relying on raw numbers? But then you get into the same question of where have they all been, how did they move in unnoticed, etc.
And then why not just ambush them at the first roadblock if they had an eye on the group anyway?
I was also kind of surprised that all this tree cutting, gunfire, giant fires, screaming, etc. didn't draw a herd. That would have been fun!
I think the reason not to grab them in the opening ambush is relatively out in the open. Neegan says "We went thru a lot of effort so you can see what we're capable of". He's a longer run thinker than anyone they've run into before except for Deanna.
Essentially this is a group that's probably killed more Saviors that everybody else combined. But he NEEDS them to work for him so he can continue to build his empire. And if they can be brought in he's got another batch of tough mothers for future groups they run into. So he's doing everything he can to hit them over the head with his power and essentially hoping it sticks.
For the majority of people it does stick obviously. I think that the show of force has kinda broken Rick at the moment (its intent). That said Neegan should kill him but he won't because he sees a broken leader. And most other broken leaders just cave and he doesn't know Rick. Once away and incensed with the death of one of his people so brutally it's going to be game on with a proper understanding of the risks from Rick's point of view.
Also didn't mind Carol. It's a messed up kind of thinking that comes from all that she has endured. I liked that it took her break to finally allow Morgan to stop being an idiot about killing.
A herd would have been fun but I think between the mega herd going down and I'd bet Saviors out killing walkers all around while they set this us there weren't enough zombies close enough to create a herd.
The group that Morgan runs into in the body armor are a new group right? From the comics? Are they goodies or baddies?
I liked the sense of desperation you could see Rick feel at the end, he had this sort of shell shocked look when he realised how many/badass the saviours could be.
My issues overall is that if the saviours are as big and nasty/powerful as they seem why have we only seen them in the last 3 episodes of season 6?
Ratius wrote: The group that Morgan runs into in the body armor are a new group right? From the comics? Are they goodies or baddies?
I liked the sense of desperation you could see Rick feel at the end, he had this sort of shell shocked look when he realised how many/badass the saviours could be.
My issues overall is that if the saviours are as big and nasty/powerful as they seem why have we only seen them in the last 3 episodes of season 6?
Nah, Hilltop doesn't really have fighters per se. They obviously trade with them (hence the spears) but they aren't from there.
As for the size of the Saviors I feel like they are simply expanding slowly in that direction. They weren't to far off from eventually finding Alexandria. But a patrol getting wiped out and an entire forward staging area being gutted might have sped them up a bit. Plus they were obviously dealing with a mini "insurrection" in the form of the librarians. Maybe they didn't have the numbers to tackle Alexandria safely until now. Notice that they seemed to be moving people toward Alexandria and setting this up for a bit.
I feel like Neegan is a planner. Rick has gotten thru on being better on his feet and luckier than his opponents. He's going to need to grow as a leader to beat Neegan.
Kirkman, the creator, said something interesting on Talking Dead. He pointed out that if you just start watching the show in season 5 or so Rick looks insane and you might actually sympathize with the Saviors. Also that if we'd watch Neegan from day one like we had Rick it would be a totally different perspective. Kinda fun and true.
A lot of the chatter has been about who got killed but I havent seen much mentioned about knocking off one of the female cast.
Is this sticking to the comics or are the writers playing "it safe" i.e easier to beat a manly man to death than a woman?
Ratius wrote: The group that Morgan runs into in the body armor are a new group right? From the comics? Are they goodies or baddies?
I liked the sense of desperation you could see Rick feel at the end, he had this sort of shell shocked look when he realised how many/badass the saviours could be.
My issues overall is that if the saviours are as big and nasty/powerful as they seem why have we only seen them in the last 3 episodes of season 6?
I thought they were the Hilltop guys...
Ratius wrote:Me too but I read somewhere they are called "The Kingdom"?
Yep. It's a new group referred to as, "The Kingdom".
Spoiler:
They're loosely based on a Kingdom with knights in body armor on horses. Their leader has a pet tiger.
timetowaste85 wrote: Although I truly think it's Abraham...what if it was Maggie?? Do a 180 from the comics? Totally doable.
Except then they just had a sick, pregnant woman's skull smashed in. The comic and show do horrible things...but they'd be facing some backlash from that, methinks. If you're going to wreck that relationship, then you go with Glenn for a cleaner solution. Plus, they do seem to be setting Maggie up for her destiny as in the comics.
He's very important to the stuff that comes later, though. Still, the one thing that gives me pause is that he gave Rick the instructions for making ammo. I don't remember anything like that in the books...Eugene makes it happen because he's still there. Could be a red herring, or it may be the workaround for his departure.
Clearly, it's a workaround and a nod to those who know his role that NOBODY IS SAFE! COME BACK NEXT SEASON!
Morgan had to come around at some point- otherwise he comes across as an oddly naïve ineffective type like Tyrese, Gabriele, etc. Which also was bothering me that they all also happened to share other significant features....
At this point, I don't think we have enough info to not potentially sympathize with Negan. Sure he's brutal. But he seems to do it for a calculated reason to minimize unnecessary conflict. And Rick is pretty brutal himself. At this point, if a group had butchered a bunch of sleeping Alexandrians, I am pretty sure they would have been killed in short order by Rick. But, of course, they will pile on the negatives traits, excesses, etc. to make Negan a true "bad guy". Because otherwise there isn't really any reason to fight him.
So, what every happened to the W's ? Was it just that one raid on Alexandrea, and that was it? They weren't all killed in the attack were they? Or are they part of Negan's gang? Or watching from the shadows to see who kills off who first, and then sweep in and clean up the rest?
timetowaste85 wrote: Although I truly think it's Abraham...what if it was Maggie?? Do a 180 from the comics? Totally doable.
Except then they just had a sick, pregnant woman's skull smashed in. The comic and show do horrible things...but they'd be facing some backlash from that, methinks. If you're going to wreck that relationship, then you go with Glenn for a cleaner solution. Plus, they do seem to be setting Maggie up for her destiny as in the comics.
He's very important to the stuff that comes later, though. Still, the one thing that gives me pause is that he gave Rick the instructions for making ammo. I don't remember anything like that in the books...Eugene makes it happen because he's still there. Could be a red herring, or it may be the workaround for his departure.
Unfortunately not seen the episode as was away on Holiday but will get it on catach up.............
Obviously I would hope its Eugene over all the others but hey - in terms of the need for his specific skills - they can just bring in another survivor/s with techincal abilities - arguably Denise getting killed was much more of a problem for Alexandria as they don;t have another medically trained person?
Its exactly why both Eugene and Denise should never have been allowed out of the compound - they are too valuable and they themslves were (understandbly and in avery human way ) selfish in risking themslves in that way. But hey stuff needs to happen to keep the plot rolling
Is there any indication yet of the size of the Savious as they have suffered a massive amount of dead - must be 50+ dead - thats an awful lot!
I thought the epsiode with Maggie and Carol captured was great - and it was a shame that such interesting Saviour chracters got killed.....I also thought it was considered easier for us to watch women kill women - than if Rick and Co had had to kill them in cold blood as they did the last survivor they had......but then I think back to what Carol and Tyreese had to do to the little girl - so maybe not..............
Necros wrote: So, what every happened to the W's ? Was it just that one raid on Alexandrea, and that was it? They weren't all killed in the attack were they? Or are they part of Negan's gang? Or watching from the shadows to see who kills off who first, and then sweep in and clean up the rest?
The Wolves are dealt with now - they're dead and gone.
I'm not sure they are going to pour on bad things about Neegan. I mean, he's a dictator but even the Gov. had his redeeming qualities.
I like the parallel and the idea that we'd be rooting for Negan at this point if we'd watched him from the beginning. I mean honestly in context of the show Rick is pretty stable. But in reality if you step back there aren't many differences between him and Negan. Actually Negan might be less inclined to kill everyone as, unlike Rick, he has enough men that he can afford mistakes from time to time.
Rick and his "family" can't. There are to few of them and it's happened to often. Hence his decisive brutality.
Hulksmash wrote: I'm not sure they are going to pour on bad things about Neegan. I mean, he's a dictator but even the Gov. had his redeeming qualities.
I like the parallel and the idea that we'd be rooting for Negan at this point if we'd watched him from the beginning. I mean honestly in context of the show Rick is pretty stable. But in reality if you step back there aren't many differences between him and Negan. Actually Negan might be less inclined to kill everyone as, unlike Rick, he has enough men that he can afford mistakes from time to time.
Rick and his "family" can't. There are to few of them and it's happened to often. Hence his decisive brutality.
Probably right - the whole kill the Saviours get the food aspect was well done and realistic but yeah maybe it was trying to show that Rick is still never far from the darkness.............
I'll take the comic book WRITER and CREATOR's view of it yours Alph. If he says it's likely we'd view Negan close to how we view Rick now then I think he's probably right. It is his material after all
I mean WHY does Negan and his group do that? It could be argued that it's because of what happened to them in the past. He's really no different than most nobles written about in history. A feudal system isn't a good system but it does work and did for centuries.
And while I'm sure they will darken him a bit I don't think they'll go full crazy one him. I think they want to toy with the line and how very close Rick is to being a Gov./Negan and making him to bad will undermine it.
Yeah, from a survival point of view, a guy that brutally murders one to prevent a spiraling conflict and then assimilates the remaining seems pretty solid and almost Romanesque. The fact that he doesn't just enslave weaker opposition and keep the wealth among his warrior core puts him miles above most historical leaders.
Rick is rapidly proving far too impulsive and reactionary to be a good large scale leader. A good warband leader, yes. Large scale leader, not so much. If Negan couples controlled power with a charismatic personality and solid logistics/ planning, there would not really be any good reason to oppose him as leader.
After all, taking half your stuff is just a tax.
Given the series take on the Governor, hopefully they'll take the same route as they did with him. Hmn, though in saying that, the Governor was an early villain, so the writing wasn't as developed as it is now.
Ideally we'll see more of an expansion on Negan's character. Rather than him being shown just through his current actions there'll be more behind the scenes development. The way the comics handled things it was just like he was there to do something big then bugger off as people reacted to it (presumably due to the serialized nature of the media).
Since the show doesn't follow the comics to a tee, anything goes. Odds are that Negan will get offed by one of the group in a spectacular fashion, further down the road. He's just the Governor 2.0 with a bit of charm thrown in as icing.
Or they can surprise us. Like I said, anything goes.
The episode just felt really stretched out and contrived to me. Carol's angle is super unbelievable and really erodes some good development. And while it introduced another faction (good thing), they looked ridiculous.
Heh if you thought the guys dressed in armour riding horses and wielding spears were ridiculous, wait till you see their leader.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The difference between the Governor and Negan is that whilst the Governor was a paranoid psychopath who saw everyone of whom he didn't command loyalty and obedience as a threat to be exterminated, Negan on the other hand is a visionary.
Negan is bringing communities together to create a network and rebuild civilization in his own twisted way. He terrorizes communities and beats them into submission then puts them to work harvesting supplies to feed the the Saviours, who are essentially his private army protecting the empire he's building. I expect that he eventually recruits the strongest and most capable people into the Saviours once they've proven their worth, obedience and loyalty. Many of the Saviours themselves probably started out as enemies, until Negan brought them together.
It never really came up in the comics, but I expect the purpose of The Saviours is to defend DC against the biggest and most dangerous threats like massive herds of walkers such as the one that attacked Alexandria (before the Saviours were aware of the settlement), and other hostile groups of survivors like The Wolves and Terminus. After all, he doesn't want the network of settlements that supply him and his people to crumble. The Saviours do actually turn up at Alexandria's gates once to collect supplies, and they clear the immediate area of a small herd of walkers.
Negan and Rick are two sides of the same coin. They're both trying to rebuild civilization in their own ways.
Spoiler:
The most interesting thing about Negan is that he eventually comes round to Rick's way of thinking and the war with the Saviours actually ends in peace.
In no way would we ever think Negan is anything other than what he is - and that's a charismatic lunatic!
Negan's actually way smarter than a mere lunatic. I loathed The Governor, but I actually like Negan and his aims, just not his methods.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Necros wrote: So, what every happened to the W's ? Was it just that one raid on Alexandrea, and that was it? They weren't all killed in the attack were they? Or are they part of Negan's gang? Or watching from the shadows to see who kills off who first, and then sweep in and clean up the rest?
The last survivors of the Wolves were killed by Rick when they attacked his RV.
People really ought to forget about the Wolves now. They were based on a very minor group of antagonists who only featured in a couple of issues until they were wiped out in one single skirmish. The only hostile group in the comics that had a briefer run were the Marauders (the guys that jump Rick, Michonne and Carl in the woods and try to rape Carl).
They were never meant to be a long term threat, they were just fleshed out a little to add a little padding to the early half of the season.
Comic The Governor - crap. Tv The Governor - great. Novel The Governor - redeemed the comic one so he was a lot more conflicted (it was all a show for stability).
I wonder if they'll make a novel for Negan as well so as to flesh him out a lot more. He's still alive, so maybe not, but he could do with a similar treatment to The Governor.
Since the show doesn't follow the comics to a tee, anything goes. Odds are that Negan will get offed by one of the group in a spectacular fashion, further down the road. He's just the Governor 2.0 with a bit of charm thrown in as icing.
Or they can surprise us. Like I said, anything goes.
I don't think they'll kill Negan. He's too important to Rick's future character development, becoming a devil on Rick's shoulder.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: 152 Negan is a lot different than 100 Negan - though the comic releasing tomorrow should tell us a lot about where he is now!
I think the cover for #152 is metaphorical.
Spoiler:
Negan isn't going to attack Rick. In fact, I think Negan will make a point of not attacking Rick, he's quite clearly been working his way into Rick's good graces and trying to earn Rick's trust. Negan likes what Rick has been doing for the past two years and wants in. Rick will come home to find Negan lounging on Rick's sofa, or cooking a meal and preparing the table, and Marco (the one who freed Negan) dead on the floor. Negan despises cowards and disloyalty, and has killed people in the past for it, like Spencer who wanted Negan to kill Rick and put Spencer in charge.
Negan has already had one opportunity to escape when his cell was left unlocked but he deliberately stayed put to earn Rick's trust and show that Negan's changing his ways. Or at least, is willing to cooperate with Rick and is no longer a threat, even if he remains unrepentant for his past actions.
I can foresee Rick putting Negan back in charge of the Saviours out of sheer desperation, now that Dwight has quit as leader and Rick is in desperate need of allies and effective leaders to help fight the Whisperers. Who better to lead the Saviours than Negan?
He has nothing if he leaves. The world out there hates him, so he'd have to start anew. Stay with Rick and at least he means something.
Some of the Saviors, regardless of their supposed reform, would side with him if he came back. That may be what happens, but we don't know the circumstances (he could wind up leading them as a good guy).
However we're under the assumption that the Whisperers are the enemy. There's the third party which was introduced in the last issue. It could be that they turn up one issue, see all the different factions and kind of go "what's up with you guys? Shuddup and get along already". The series is due another big fight, but all the current build up doesn't necessarily have to be expended that way. Things could end up positive for once.
...But I'm not sure the fans would accept things going all right and more playing politics. People want post-apocalyptic conflict, not Rick farming for another hundred issues.
Alpharius wrote: Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.
They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.
Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.
Re how palatable people would find such a group:
Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........
In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......
In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............
Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.
Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft
Denise actually dies anyway in the comics, just at a later point. (probably somewhere in the second half of Season 7 if she hadn't died in Season 6).
Yeah my point was her knowledge/skill set is as important as Eugnene (much much more so in the short term) and she is dead. They can always bring new cast in with knowledge and they are simply not tied to a given character providing that knowledge.
One thing I am not sure about is that given the huge damage that Ricks crew have inflicted on the Saviours - Smashing just one guys head in may seem a let off for the men and women they have lost.............. I realise that they can't kill the main cast in numbers though.
Alpharius wrote: Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.
They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.
Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.
Re how palatable people would find such a group:
Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........
In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......
In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............
Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.
Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft
The problem being, of course, that "Civilization" has kind of said "No, not anymore!" to that way of life for hundreds of years at this point, and there are plenty of communities 2 years on that don't run themselves like that.
Still, the overall point of the show (and comic) is that Man is the True Monster Now!
Negan appears in issue 100. Alpha appears in issue 132.
The spat with Negan lasted months in comic time. Alpha turned up two years + after that ended.
So speaking of series length, it depends. Do they cut short Negan (odd considering they extended the Governor's arc, and they're running out of material), or cut to Alpha? Do they cut out the two year gap, or create filler?
I'd say two or three seasons, depending on the filler and if they cut out stuff. Negan should last, and there's a lot to work with their. Given that the Saviours were fairly flat they could do with expanding, particular Negan's reasons and giving Dwight more to do (also possibly bringing his second in command who only appears after the time skip).
If they really need to make things last they could spend a season just building up to the Whisperers.
Alpharius wrote: Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.
They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.
Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.
Re how palatable people would find such a group:
Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........
In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......
In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............
Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.
Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft
The problem being, of course, that "Civilization" has kind of said "No, not anymore!" to that way of life for hundreds of years at this point, and there are plenty of communities 2 years on that don't run themselves like that.
Still, the overall point of the show (and comic) is that Man is the True Monster Now!
So yeah, Negan shows that point rather nicely...
"Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them."
Sorry but I thought your whole point was that we - the viewers would not want to watch them or enjoy them etc?
These other shows demonstrate that people are happy to watch such people and indeed cheer them on..............
Currently in the show we know of precisely three groups that survived that didn't run like that:
The Atlanta gangers at the start (and we have no idea what happened to them)
the Hilltop - which arguably only survives because of the Saviours
Alexandria - and Arguably the Ricktatorship veered towards this on occasion - he was getting food from the Hilltop either by trade or by gun - he stated he wasn't leaving without it.
Plus Alexandria's pre Rick survival as it was depicted was pretty damn unlikely
In contrast we have had:
The Governor
Terminus - they tried the Alexandria way and look what happened to them.....not nice.....
The Hospital people
The Saviours
The Wolves
Negan and Rick have similarities, and important differences...primarily in their motivations. Negan, while a visionary, is far more *selfish*. And in fact it's his selfishness that holds him, his vision, and these communities back. This is a *very* important distinction between the two.
Negan is also important for Rick because...
Spoiler:
...his threat pushes Rick to become a better leader...a more visionary leader capable of leading not just a small group of people, and not just one settlement, but a group of settlements. It also leads to him become a better all-around leader and administrator instead of a simple warlord or strongman. Negan leads to a great deal of personal growth by Rick. The Rick that arrived at Alexandria wouldn't have been ready or even able to take on what Rick handles after All Out War and the time jump.
But what really makes the dynamic between these two characters great is that Rick is a stick in the mud, while Negan is fun.
Wyrmalla wrote: Negan appears in issue 100. Alpha appears in issue 132.
The spat with Negan lasted months in comic time. Alpha turned up two years + after that ended.
So speaking of series length, it depends. Do they cut short Negan (odd considering they extended the Governor's arc, and they're running out of material), or cut to Alpha? Do they cut out the two year gap, or create filler?
I think Negan gets all of Season 7 - and maybe some of Season 8, and then we'll get the time jump and after that...who knows?
Alpharius wrote: Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them.
They routinely kill one person right off the bat (ha!), take half of their stuff and threaten to kill more if they don't do what they're told.
They make you return to your home and return with the head of your leader in order to save hostages.
Negan may be 'charming' to some extent, and...darkly humorous at times, but he'd not someone you'd prefer over almost anyone else.
Re how palatable people would find such a group:
Have you watched historical fiction like Vikings or Black Sails? Some the best loved "heroes" are as "bad" or much worse...........
In Vikings, Ragnar and Lagetha are happy to kill, enslave, torture and in fact either enjoy all of these or just find it part of the natural order. The first episode has the main hero turn up and slaughter unarmed priests and take a few to sell as slaves - the Vikings think its a great laugh.
The main cast find it fun to string a priest up and shoot arrows at him until he dies.......
In fact pretty much everyone in the show carries out much more horrific acts than Negan/Rick and crew............
Captain Vain orchestrates the repeated gang rape of a woman and "everyone" was devastated when he died.
Negan acts like the world has changed back to these days and can be seen to be similar to a Mongol leader, Samurai Noble, Medieval king, Roman General, etc etc in fact they might consider him a bit soft
The problem being, of course, that "Civilization" has kind of said "No, not anymore!" to that way of life for hundreds of years at this point, and there are plenty of communities 2 years on that don't run themselves like that.
Still, the overall point of the show (and comic) is that Man is the True Monster Now!
So yeah, Negan shows that point rather nicely...
"Again - there's NO WAY we'd find Negan and the Saviors at all palatable no matter when we started following them."
Sorry but I thought your whole point was that we - the viewers would not want to watch them or enjoy them etc?
These other shows demonstrate that people are happy to watch such people and indeed cheer them on..............
Currently in the show we know of precisely three groups that survived that didn't run like that:
The Atlanta gangers at the start (and we have no idea what happened to them)
the Hilltop - which arguably only survives because of the Saviours
Alexandria - and Arguably the Ricktatorship veered towards this on occasion - he was getting food from the Hilltop either by trade or by gun - he stated he wasn't leaving without it.
Plus Alexandria's pre Rick survival as it was depicted was pretty damn unlikely
In contrast we have had:
The Governor
Terminus - they tried the Alexandria way and look what happened to them.....not nice.....
The Hospital people
The Saviours
The Wolves
plus various roaming gangs of "bad guys".
I'd watch a series based on Negan, but it would have to be a HBO production so he can fully express himself
Negan does remind me of Ragnar, They rule by their own code, They like messing with peoples heads, and they're both mild manner and fun loving in a way, until you piss them off, then they pull your lungs out
Wyrmalla wrote: So speaking of series length, it depends. Do they cut short Negan (odd considering they extended the Governor's arc, and they're running out of material), or cut to Alpha? Do they cut out the two year gap, or create filler?
I'd say two or three seasons, depending on the filler and if they cut out stuff. Negan should last, and there's a lot to work with their. Given that the Saviours were fairly flat they could do with expanding, particular Negan's reasons and giving Dwight more to do (also possibly bringing his second in command who only appears after the time skip).
If they really need to make things last they could spend a season just building up to the Whisperers.
Well, that's a question complicated by the fact that some of these people may want to move on soon. Not a big deal if it's an actor playing a secondary character...the writers are certainly happy to off them in that instance. But if Andrew Lincoln decides 7 seasons on one television show is enough -- and really, wouldn't it be? -- then maybe they wouldn't be eager to draw things out *too* much. They could even wrap up the series after All Out War...give a little glimpse forward at the end of the series finale and call it a wrap before we even get to that group.
Note that they do have their backup plan in place already.
When you get down to brass tacks, I think it'd be possible for them to cover everything up to the end of All Out War in season 7 and still do a solid job with the material. Sixteen episodes to cover 26 issues should be doable. Thirty two episodes feels like too many, although you never know what new stuff they'd introduce, and they might be motivated to stretch it if Jeffrey Dean Morgan's Negan proves to be popular. They could shoot for 24, but I don't know that they'd want to handle the thing that happens after All Out War over a midseason break. A New Beginning seems like a much more natural fit for a season opener, so my bet is that we're looking at 1 or 2 whole seasons for everything through All Out War.
Hmm...that was more rambling than I intended. If I had to bet on that particular group's appearance, I'd guess I'd go with season 9, although I'm not even confident that the series will get that far.
The current strength of the show lasting is actually the atmosphere they talk about regularly that Lincoln is such a large part of developing. If he's invested (and he seems to be) I don't think he cares when the show ends. They've certainly given him plenty to work with. Add in the rest of the crew, the free hand it seems to mostly enjoy, and that they only film 16 episodes a year (leaving plenty of time for other projects) and I think most are in it for the haul.
That is one of the strengths to a non-22/23 episode season. You've cut 1-2 months of shooting out for that.
I expect the doctor at The Hilltop will get a lot more screentime now that Denise is dead. What was his name...Carson?
Kanluwen wrote: How long before we see The Whisperers, any bets?
No earlier than Season 8.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If one of the BIG names like Andrew Lincoln wants to move on then I think their character should be recasted. Worked reasonably well for Spartacus (though that was because the original actor passed away from cancer).
[MOD EDIT - 'comic talk only in spoiler tags' - Alpharius]
Spoiler:
After the Negan arc ends it jumps 2 years ahead. I guess because otherwise it'd devolve into daily drama, and the writer wanted to show the results of peacetime.
In other words, yes season 9 of the Walking Dead will be turning Alexandria into one of those Colonial village tourist attractions. It probably even has a gift shop.
Another (somewhat thin) theory I've read is that the identity of the victim can be narrowed down to the four people held captive in the van, Daryl, Glenn, Rosita and Michonne. Basically the theory suggests that the 1st person shots are a recurring theme through the episode, and all of them bar the last one (that of the victim looking up at Negan) occur from the perspective of one of the captives inside the van, suggesting that they're all from the POV of the same person.
I won't bother to link it because it was one of those god awful click bait sites that force you to click through several pages and adverts to read the whole article.
Spoiler:
Its starting to look more and more like Glenn is fethed.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Does anyone know which channel Fear The Walking Dead airs on for Sky TV? My grandmother wants to watch it.
Just did a quick google search and found this:
Sky customers can watch AMC or AMC HD on the Sky Digital Satellite Platform on channel 192. To be able to watch AMC on Sky you'll need to have the BT Sport Pack on Sky. To get AMC in HD you'll need to have the BT Sport Pack HD on Sky. AMC catch-up content is available to BT TV customers only.
Hulksmash wrote: It's not Glenn for sure. It could be any of them. They stated they didn't shoot who he killed on Talking Dead.
It's actually an ingenious way to keep it quiet till they start shooting again.
You don't know that.
Glenn is the default choice, absent any evidence to suggest it was someone else.
In regards to the clip I can say with certainty it isnt Glenn because they didn't film anyone getting hit. That's what I was referring to.
As for who it could be it's any male that's not aaron, Rick or carl. Everyone else is possible. But they haven't shot anything for who is dead yet. The only guy who knows who's dead is gimple.
Reedus claimed he did, the others said they didn't. We got three choices: he's lying, the others are all lying, or he's dead. None of which get us closer to an answer!
The show runner has been careful to not lie and so has most of the rest of the cast. So it might be Reedus that's dead then. They go out of their way to make sure they either don't comment or tell the truth. But I guess we'll see.
timetowaste85 wrote: Reedus claimed he did, the others said they didn't. We got three choices: he's lying, the others are all lying, or he's dead. None of which get us closer to an answer!
timetowaste85 wrote: Reedus claimed he did, the others said they didn't. We got three choices: he's lying, the others are all lying, or he's dead. None of which get us closer to an answer!
Reedus has been known to be a troll to the fanbase.
Of course they're lying. Several members of the cast have spoken about how sick they felt reading the script, or how they were late to work for the first time in 6 years because they couldn't sleep, etc.
Its also going to be a bit of clue when a particular actor is not asked to film more scenes for next season.
Leaving the victims identity as a 6 month cliffhanger was monumentally stupid - it is going to be leaked.
Hell, there are claims that the entire plot of Season 6 of Game of Thrones has been leaked. Might be a fake, but its a convincing fake.
Its not stupid if it continues to generate a buzz about the show - and thats whats intended I guess. Also Walking Dead is fond of flashbacks and "ghost" scenes so cast can be called back even if dead.
Necros wrote: I think we'll know it's Daryl if he shows up for an interview with clean hair.
I'm hoping it's rosita since she's mostly useless. If it's Michone, I think my GF will stop watching and hate the show from that point on.
Rositia is cute - but they like killing the cute ones............
Kill Eugene - make me happy - in fact he is on the only one in that line up I don't like Although i know at leasat one girl who wants the bat to fall hard on Abraham............
Jihadin wrote: Norman Reedus has a show now called....Riding with Norman Reedus....
Meh, many people have projects in the off season. And it's not like shooting time would be huge on a motorcycle ride show. They could probably wrap that in a month.
I'm still inclined toward Eugene. If not Eugene then it's split between Abraham and Glenn with it leaning heavily on Glenn due to Negan's last comment. Darryl is only before Aaron and that's because I figure Aaron is safe since he wouldn't be a gut punch at all.
I'm going with Abraham. Pulls it towards the comics without really losing much. Seeing how pissed people were with Glen getting eaten, I doubt it. But possible.
Can we talk about FTWD? That episode was super slow. We're on a boat. Still on a boat. Dead mom drama was super lame. Also, the girl is shaping up to be a real liability/stupid character.
Also, if that fog was from burning, how did no one smell anything? And why didn't they see the capsized ship and bodies (or a he smoke bank) from a mile away on calm seas?
Glenn is also doing a movie now too. So Reedus's show doesn't mean anything. They've also sold their homes in Georgia. There are red herrings and tricks everywhere. Until it's leaked, we can speculate a ton, and it'll be tons of fun. But I don't think there is any hard proof. Even the counting the victims thing could have the order changed (order suggests Glenn currently), and the audio...I listened to it 5 times. Couldn't hear "Mag-Maggie" in there at all. Somebody was trying really hard to make the argument.
I like Daryl and Glenn quite a bit. The biggest gut punch I'd feel is if one of those two went.
Abraham and Eugene only good together; if you kill off one, make the other follow shortly.
Maggie would die in a single hit, sick as she is; Rick and Carl also safe due to the "eye food" conversation. Rosita, Sasha and Aaron probably safe due to not being loved enough.
Michone well loved, Rick's love interest (a death sentence so far), and she could "take it like a champ" better than most guys.
jmurph wrote: Can we talk about FTWD? That episode was super slow. We're on a boat. Still on a boat. Dead mom drama was super lame. Also, the girl is shaping up to be a real liability/stupid character.
Also, if that fog was from burning, how did no one smell anything? And why didn't they see the capsized ship and bodies (or a he smoke bank) from a mile away on calm seas?
I quite liked the episode. Bear in mind the boat is likely their home for quite some time (given the work they put into the set for it). That said the Teenage daughter was obviously conflicted but I think something to keep in mind is what she said. "It ended before I knew anything had started". She's completely lost right now. To her everything has gone crazy in the last 36 hours. And as the showrunner pointed out on Talking Dead she's one that was perfectly ready to succeed in the old world but might be one of the slowest to adapt (if she adapts at all) to the new world.
Bearing in mind where they are and that Los Angeles is burning I'm thinking a random bank of smoke isn't something to be remarked on.
For me the characters are developing well. I love Sands and Nick. Both have a lot of character growth coming I feel not to mention the odd connection between them. I found it interesting that Sands told Travis to step to him and then backed down a bit from something he saw in the other character. I just feel like there is only one character I dislike (Travis's son) and 2 that I don't care about (Salazars Daughter & the sister). Everyone else I'm quite happy with.
My Granny will be thrilled. 
