Guess it's just me but that was the absolute worst episode in the series. I actually groaned when they showed the burial ground. Just awful awful writing.
I understand the suspension of disbelief, but this whole season is just incredibly unbelievable and stupid for survivors a few years in. From the pied piper of zombies to Glen "dying" to this, it's like the writers aren't even trying.
"Hey guys lets spend a bunch of time and effort to build barricades instead of just reinforcing the quarry barricades!"
"Brilliant! Make sure to not use the bulldozer we'll reference later. That could never be used to back fill the quarry barricades."
"Your right. Earth behind a wall wasn't used for centuries to reinforce a wall. I know, lets put the supports on the outside of the wall, Because engineering."
Just an awful episode IMO. Thankfully the comics are still good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean the glaring holes in Eastman's character story. I can buy a doughy middle aged man being good at aikido. I can buy the pacifism. But the story? Rubbish.
No prisoner who escapes from jail, and slaughters a family, is going to be outside of solitary confinement for years, no matter how charming he is.
Then the timeline. He kills Creighton, feels bad, decides to turn himself in, only to find the apocalypse already in full swing. We already know that everyone is infected, so why didn't he see Creighton turn? Does starvation destroy the brain somehow?
He's only 30 miles (his words) from the Atlanta area and has had no large groups of walkers? With a goat bleating away all day?
And Eastman's death scene? Horrible horrible directing. Here's a guy who is apparently a zen master with a stick, a weapon with at least some range. Instead of attacking the single, lone zombie, or pulling Morgan back, he turns his back to it? WTF?
It's even worse than Glen missing the fire escape in the alley.
And lastly, how does a man stay that chubby on an all veg diet, with a garden with what, 10 plants total?
It seems like the writers think we are stupid, and you guys thought this was a good episode? At least Z Nation is fun.
Enjoyment of something can be done even if there are faults in it. That is where the "opinion" part of this comes into play.
It's sloppy writing.
In your opinion.
I get what you're saying, and maybe I worded it a bit harshly at first, but generally plot holes are considered bad writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: At first I was like, "Well, he's got some good points!" but then:
DutchWinsAll wrote:At least Z Nation is fun.
cincydooley wrote:The notion that Eastman wouldnt use his stick to keep the zombie at distance was absurd.
I'm with you on that one - made Eastman's death seem really contrived. They should have come up with something a bit more believable.
If you like gakky B movies and such, it's great. If you try and take it as serious, like TWD, then it's horrible. At least they poke fun at their plot holes, and spoof cool gak like Mad Max and zombie George RR Martin.
I think the writters really love Morgan and think everyone else does too hence the indulgence of this episode............
it reminded me quite abit of the Angel episode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guise_Will_Be_Guise (except that had better writting) and for a moment I thought they were going to have a similar twist with the Akido guy being the murderer..............but no.
I didn't mind it but didn't enjoy it much either - its good that they are trying to make zombies seem a bit more of a threat but at this point they really shouldn't be except for the unexpected. The characters seem lurch from competancy to horrifically inept quite rapidly but then its tv so thats fairly normal............
Hoping Morgan gets called out on his stupidity that led directly to various people diying - but I doubt it.
People like Morgan, from what I can tell, because he's a link to the beginning and an excellent parallel for Rick. Additionally the episode "Clear" really was on of the best they'd done to that point (and still one of the best currently). The actor playing Morgan is excellent as well and has quite a bit of charisma on camera.
That said I'm ready for him to go. At this point he might be responsible for more deaths than the governor.
Also all of those "plot holes" mentioned earlier can have a fairly easy explanation. Overall the episode was solid and filled in story we probably needed to understand Morgan. But I'm really hoping he gets offed relatively quickly or Rick beats the ever living hell out of him.
gorgon wrote: Like I said earlier, my current guess is that Morgan will see a very memorable end that comics readers should be familiar with.
I'm starting to think their saving that for the wolf guy.
This episode was really what the whole season is about though, it's about redemption. Tara was redeemed, nicolas was almost redeemed, morgan was redeemed, and this wolf could end up being redeemed. He might end up being the one who saves the day for the group. Or at least be used for that memorable end.
And yet Morgan was basically in that exact place -- killing any human or zombie he came across -- before he got himself together. At some point, the worm will turn in this show. It's plausible that wolf boy could be part of the start of that. He's right that redemption is one of the themes of the season so far.
Although I'm unsure that wolf boy will be the one to suffer the particular end I mentioned. I don't think his death would carry enough emotional significance, even if he's redeemed by Morgan.
cincydooley wrote: Yep. Don't see it. Morgan isn't Eastman. Nor does he have a secluded area to rehabilitate someone for months.
it wasn't months, it only took morgan 4 days and a whoopin to come around
I read that it was longer than that.
If he was really only there for 4 days, learned aikido, and was rehabbed, then I hate this episode and the character even more than I did.
He was in the cell for four days...
Just remember that last scene where Morgan finds the Terminous Train Tracks. I'm sure that was AFTER the season when Rick's crew broke out of Terminus. That's ample time for Morgan to rehab and learn aikido. Isn't t that like 2+ worth TWD seasons at least?
Actually he spend a portion of the end of season 4 and all of season 5 heading to terminus and following Rick's group.
That leaves about a season and half of time between Clear and seeing him following the signs. And unlike other seasons there is a several month time jump between 3 and 4.
I saw it as him going crazy when he wakes up after Rick and Michonne leave in "Clear" and he burns his house down. Then he spends sometime out in the wild and then he's with Easterman for months. Granted I could be wrong but that's what it felt like.
I sincerely believe Glenn is not dead. He (with Maggie) and Daryl are the most loved characters in the show. More than Rick, Carl (who lots of people actively dislike), Morgan (also disliked by a bunch), Carol (who has gotten hella-badass)...yeah, I see Glenn more likely to survive than Rick, honestly. I truly think the show would go downhill quickly with him gone.
I don't think it would go downhill if Glenn is dead. It would remove the one "happy" storyline we still currently have on the show but I don't think the show would be hurt by it. I really do think he falls into the category of removable if for a good reason.
That said this could be a throwback to season 4. Then Glenn hunted for Maggie even though she had to be dead (the entire bus was). This time Maggie will hunt for him. It's also to remind us that Maggie is no slouch in this world either.
I still don't think Glenn is actually dead. I just don't think the show would do him the way it's been done. Also we've had the loved one/family member zombie arc so many times I hope we don't see that either.
The more I think about it the more I feel like this could also be a rediscovery for Rick. The last words Rick heard from Glen were the words he first heard from him when he was trapped in a mob of zombies in an position of certain doom. Now Glenn is in the same position. I don't feel like that was accidental either.
cincydooley wrote: Yep. Don't see it. Morgan isn't Eastman. Nor does he have a secluded area to rehabilitate someone for months.
it wasn't months, it only took morgan 4 days and a whoopin to come around
If Carole sees "wolf boy" he is dead................and good riddance.
And the time may come when they don't need Carol anymore, because killing isn't a civilized society's answer for everything.
Carol is still on my list of candidates to expire by season's end.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: I don't think it would go downhill if Glenn is dead. It would remove the one "happy" storyline we still currently have on the show but I don't think the show would be hurt by it. I really do think he falls into the category of removable if for a good reason.
That said this could be a throwback to season 4. Then Glenn hunted for Maggie even though she had to be dead (the entire bus was). This time Maggie will hunt for him. It's also to remind us that Maggie is no slouch in this world either.
Well, it'd be a great reason for Rick's crew to start exploring the greater area. With exploration comes discoveries...
Maybe but she is one of the few whose current survival makes sense.........plus I think she can self justify most of her actions and slip back into her homemaker persona plus Carol would never try and control the community - she will do whats required as and when to protect it and the people....
Rick is more likely to be the problem if the world gets better (and no sign of that) - depends alot on what happens to Carl and his daughter -bad things happen to them and we have another Governor.
I actually had a $5 bet with a friend that Rick wouldn't survive Lori's death. I figured Daryl would have become team leader. I had been predicting Glenn and Maggie surviving til the end. I still think Rick would bite it before Glenn.
timetowaste85 wrote: I actually had a $5 bet with a friend that Rick wouldn't survive Lori's death. I figured Daryl would have become team leader. I had been predicting Glenn and Maggie surviving til the end. I still think Rick would bite it before Glenn.
I have a lunch bet with my buddy that Daryl will die before Rick.
I believe that I will win that bet by the end of this season.
Having read the comics I think people will be surprised at Rick' s ability to adapt and return to more civilised ways. Don't write him off, he's no Governor.
And he's going to be around for a long, long time yet. I think they'll only kill him off when the actor wants to leave the show. And even then, given Ricks critical role in the comics, I think there's a strong possibility that they'll just recast him.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Having read the comics I think people will be surprised at Rick' s ability to adapt and return to more civilised ways. Don't write him off, he's no Governor.
And he's going to be around for a long, long time yet. I think they'll only kill him off when the actor wants to leave the show. And even then, given Ricks critical role in the comics, I think there's a strong possibility that they'll just recast him.
yeah, Rick is untouchable. Maybe the only true untouchable, although Carl is right there. The story is about Rick and his family.
However, the show -- much more so than the comics -- seems to feature Rick's changing mindset, IMO. First he's too warm, then too cold, then back to too warm again, etc. It's probably because they split his show character from the beginning and it's never really settled on a good middle ground. It was only late last season that they were suggesting that Rick had become somewhat unhinged, and we should expect some more exploration of that before he adapts more to his new surroundings.
Besides, actors do like to act, and unlike pencil and ink drawings they have to them some material to work with to keep them happy.
gorgon wrote: And the time may come when they don't need Carol anymore, because killing isn't a civilized society's answer for everything.
Carol is still on my list of candidates to expire by season's end.
Considering the arcs still remaining in the comic, there is always a need for a killer.
But is Carol too much of a mess to adapt, should things settle down? It seems clear that doing all the "dirty work" has deeply affected her and perhaps even poisoned her for good. Remember that she would have left the group already if not for Daryl's intervention.
No one's going to be able to convince me that there wasn't some pretty heavy symbolism and suggestion going on with Carol wearing Wolf clothing and a "W" on her forehead. Then again, maybe we'll see some kind of redemption and healing on her part, since that does seem to be an ongoing theme. Perhaps Morgan the shepherd will have an influence on Carol the wolf.
Carol is a character that early on I had no problem with being lost from the group and not coming back (her name also disappeared from credits, in an earlier season). But now she's become such an important character that even with expecting her to die before Glenn or Maggie, I suspect she'll be kicking ass for a while yet. Maybe go out Bonnie and Clyde style with Daryl somewhere down the road. But that day seems a way off. I was surprised she survived even season 2. Now I'm very glad she has!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Having read the comics I think people will be surprised at Rick' s ability to adapt and return to more civilised ways. Don't write him off, he's no Governor.
And he's going to be around for a long, long time yet. I think they'll only kill him off when the actor wants to leave the show. And even then, given Ricks critical role in the comics, I think there's a strong possibility that they'll just recast him.
I don;t know - several of the statements that Rick made before and after he became Ricktator of the Alexandria were things the Governor would have agreed with and / or said - it would be extremely easy for him to slip into that role without people like Glenn...........if Carl or his baby had beem killed by the Wolves - what woud have stopped him.
Imagine Rick, Carl, Carol and Daryl running the place on their own - would it be mugch different from the Governors way of doing things..............
I can;t seem him letting the Wolf live - they have set the precendent for what happens to muderers now - why would they not carry on the same way? Who is going to stick up for the captured Wolf - the Alexandrians whose friends and families have been chopped to pieces? The only one is Morgan and its his fault the whole thing happened.
Realistically they will simply find out what he knows, if there are more Wolves, where they are and then execute him - quickly and coldly - same as Carol did with the bound captive - sensible and effective. Thats their law now - you murder people - you die.
The Wolf will escape and cause more damage, kill more people. Maybe he opens the gate or breaches the walls, which is what allows the walker herd to overrun Alexandria.
I liked the last episode. Mainly because it made me see Morgan's point of view of not killing. By this time as viewers we all agree with the Carol's way of doing things. Just kill! Not killing these people is ridiculous. However, at least I can see why Morgan feels the way he does. He was basically one of these wolf guys but he came back, so he believes in redemption.
Of course his trying to do the right thing will result in a bunch of people getting killed. Can't let TWD ever get away from that.
I mean the glaring holes in Eastman's character story. I can buy a doughy middle aged man being good at aikido. I can buy the pacifism. But the story? Rubbish.
No prisoner who escapes from jail, and slaughters a family, is going to be outside of solitary confinement for years, no matter how charming he is.
Then the timeline. He kills Creighton, feels bad, decides to turn himself in, only to find the apocalypse already in full swing. We already know that everyone is infected, so why didn't he see Creighton turn? Does starvation destroy the brain somehow?
He's only 30 miles (his words) from the Atlanta area and has had no large groups of walkers? With a goat bleating away all day?
And Eastman's death scene? Horrible horrible directing. Here's a guy who is apparently a zen master with a stick, a weapon with at least some range. Instead of attacking the single, lone zombie, or pulling Morgan back, he turns his back to it? WTF?
It's even worse than Glen missing the fire escape in the alley.
And lastly, how does a man stay that chubby on an all veg diet, with a garden with what, 10 plants total?
It seems like the writers think we are stupid, and you guys thought this was a good episode? At least Z Nation is fun.
Sure. Off the top of my head without much deeper thought
I should point out that even the actor stated that Eastman wasn't a "master" of Aikido. He's a middle aged white guy that started taking Aikido around 10 years ago and went to weekly classes. And then took quite a bit of time off to watch a man starve to death.
Work release, properly supervised, is something that regularly happens in the South where they still have a tendency to put some of their inmates into work programs. If the guy was already a murder and had managed to get to the point where he would be paroled then it's not unreasonable to assume he would be allowed to continue his "contrition" project. Add in we dont' know anything about the guy but my feeling would be there is more to him. The story from Eastman seems to indicate he may have had additional connections on top of that.
As far as seeing Creighton turn if you watched Fear the Walking Dead you'd hear the actual doctor stating that the time for reanimating is different for everyone. Sometimes seconds, sometimes hours. So it's not unreasonable that he got him buried before he turned.
30 Miles from the Atlanta area is an enormous amount of space. Especially if he's talking about the metro and not the city itself (i.e. all of the surrounding suburbs). The goat was a recent acquisition, he said so in the episode. A single dude not being loud fairly deep in the woods isn't to likely to have drawn a crown. Especially when a place like Terminus or the Governors homes weren't. Add in the goat only seems to bleet loudly when it's about to be attacked and it's not as stupid as you make it out to be.
As for the tackle instead of hitting the zombie with a stick if you watch Eastman when dealing with zombies in the episode they are always sweeping strikes. Not something you can do coming behind a guy when trying to stop a zombie. In general the dude has been dealing with single zombies by himself since the apocalypse. It's not hard to put his actions down to a lack of "maturity" in the current world. Basically he reacts on instinct and protects his friend with his body.
As for his weight it's shown he loves chocolate. He doesn't live just off the garden. He's done more than his bit of scavenging for supplies. Not to mention he'd stocked that place to watch a man die and not leave it. Have you never seen a chubby vegetarian? Because I've seen a ton. Granted I will say this was one that I was a bit miffed at. But asking an excellent actor to lose 20lbs for a single episode seems a little silly. Which is probably why they mention his love of chocolate as a bit of hand waving.
Overall it was a good episode. If you go in looking for issues or as a survival expert you're going to see issues. Like every episode of Walking Dead in general. That said it's not nearly as "stupid" or poorly directed as you seem to feel like it is. But you can feel that way, it's your opinion
Hulksmash wrote: As for the tackle instead of hitting the zombie with a stick if you watch Eastman when dealing with zombies in the episode they are always sweeping strikes. Not something you can do coming behind a guy when trying to stop a zombie. In general the dude has been dealing with single zombies by himself since the apocalypse. It's not hard to put his actions down to a lack of "maturity" in the current world. Basically he reacts on instinct and protects his friend with his body.
I'm sorry, I just find it bizarre that people harp on show moments like this that are actually fairly realistic depictions of people in sudden, scary, and highly stressful situations.
I guess we had to have a boring episode this season to catch us up on why Morgan suddenly reappeared as a pansy ninja, but we had the slow episode, back to the action. Do we know if Vegas has a pool going on whether Glenn died or not?
Sure. Off the top of my head without much deeper thought
I should point out that even the actor stated that Eastman wasn't a "master" of Aikido. He's a middle aged white guy that started taking Aikido around 10 years ago and went to weekly classes. And then took quite a bit of time off to watch a man starve to death.
Work release, properly supervised, is something that regularly happens in the South where they still have a tendency to put some of their inmates into work programs. If the guy was already a murder and had managed to get to the point where he would be paroled then it's not unreasonable to assume he would be allowed to continue his "contrition" project. Add in we don't know anything about the guy but my feeling would be there is more to him. The story from Eastman seems to indicate he may have had additional connections on top of that.
No, they don't. The South is known for being tougher on criminals, not lighter. He broke out of prison, and murdered an entire family. Remember the uproar in NY a few months ago? That guy isn't seeing the outside of solitary for a long, long time, and he didn't do much beside rob a few empty cabins on the outside. There is no feasible way a multiple murderer escaped from prison is getting sent right back to his prior area. You can get months of solitary for hiding a lighter in your mattress, let alone multiple 1st degree murders.
As far as seeing Creighton turn if you watched Fear the Walking Dead you'd hear the actual doctor stating that the time for reanimating is different for everyone. Sometimes seconds, sometimes hours. So it's not unreasonable that he got him buried before he turned.
Would you immediately bury the man you just spent almost 2 months torturing to death? If so, those graves look to be 3-4 feet of loose-packed soil. Creighton should still be an active zombie, relentless, tireless, able to pop out of that. They do kind of hibernate after long periods, but this would be a fresh turn.
30 Miles from the Atlanta area is an enormous amount of space. Especially if he's talking about the metro and not the city itself (i.e. all of the surrounding suburbs). The goat was a recent acquisition, he said so in the episode. A single dude not being loud fairly deep in the woods isn't to likely to have drawn a crown. Especially when a place like Terminus or the Governors homes weren't. Add in the goat only seems to bleet loudly when it's about to be attacked and it's not as stupid as you make it out to be.
You've apparently never been around a goat. They are noisy creatures. Cool creatures with sweet eyes, but noisy.
As for the tackle instead of hitting the zombie with a stick if you watch Eastman when dealing with zombies in the episode they are always sweeping strikes. Not something you can do coming behind a guy when trying to stop a zombie. In general the dude has been dealing with single zombies by himself since the apocalypse. It's not hard to put his actions down to a lack of "maturity" in the current world. Basically he reacts on instinct and protects his friend with his body.
It's over a year in, and as you allude to later, he's been scavenging a lot. Plus his journey to get the drywall, he should be a little bit more pragmatic to protect this man who, a few days ago, was actively trying to kill him multiple times.
As for his weight it's shown he loves chocolate. He doesn't live just off the garden. He's done more than his bit of scavenging for supplies. Not to mention he'd stocked that place to watch a man die and not leave it. Have you never seen a chubby vegetarian? Because I've seen a ton. Granted I will say this was one that I was a bit miffed at. But asking an excellent actor to lose 20lbs for a single episode seems a little silly. Which is probably why they mention his love of chocolate as a bit of hand waving.
Overall it was a good episode. If you go in looking for issues or as a survival expert you're going to see issues. Like every episode of Walking Dead in general. That said it's not nearly as "stupid" or poorly directed as you seem to feel like it is. But you can feel that way, it's your opinion
If he's that close to an area where he can scavenge that much easily, he should be dealing with more zombies. At least more than ~12 graves shown. I don't view these as survival expert type problems, more basic human survival type problems. Hence why I think it's sloppy writing.
I think both Morgan and Eastman were acted incredibly well, I just thing the writing is sub-par and uninspired. Gimple is no Darabont IMO. I did enjoy our debate though, very much. Thank you for the reasonable and well thought-out responses. Cheers.
Col. Dash wrote: I guess we had to have a boring episode this season to catch us up on why Morgan suddenly reappeared as a pansy ninja, but we had the slow episode, back to the action. Do we know if Vegas has a pool going on whether Glenn died or not?
He is dead for sure I think.
Mainly because the situation was totally hopeless, showed how glenn being a moral compass actually led to his death, and the super sad music during his death. Its also a pretty important part of maggies arc for glenn to die.
Haha yeah, maybe! Its technically possible that what we saw was the other guy getting eaten on top of glenn rather then him.
I dont think so but I would be pleasantly surprised if this were the case.
Of course it was Nicholas. It was pretty clear that he fell on top of Glenn. Glenn is still fethed however - what happens when they chew right through Nicholas' corpse and keep going? And whats to stop them eating Glenn's face? Theres no way he can possibly get out of this without some outside intervention. Divine intervention.
Haha yeah, maybe! Its technically possible that what we saw was the other guy getting eaten on top of glenn rather then him.
I dont think so but I would be pleasantly surprised if this were the case.
Of course it was Nicholas. It was pretty clear that he fell on top of Glenn. Glenn is still fethed however - what happens when they chew right through Nicholas' corpse and keep going? And whats to stop them eating Glenn's face? Theres no way he can possibly get out of this without some outside intervention. Divine intervention.
divine intervention, or what I'd call final proof rick is still in a coma after being shot and this is just his dream world
I'm sure if they feel like it the zombies will take their sweet time eating Nicholas so that Glenn can be saved. If Jesus is in the wings he can throw a flare or something to distract the zombies and save Glenn with no issue. Not to say that Glenn has plot armour (looking at you Andrea), but well, I'd hate to think he'd be gone from the show just yet. ...Though they're moving onto Maggie's plotline a lot quicker than they did in the comics, so maybe she'll be getting dragged into her work sooner rather than later.
Did you really compare Glenn to Andrea?! Really?? Glenn is 1000x better as a character. What's next? Somebody claiming Glenn is only as good as Shane? Or Lori? Hell, he's better than Carl.
IIRC Andrea was supposed to survive in the Tv Series. For some reason the guys in charge made a last minute decision to kill her off however. Last minute as in changing the script just before the scene was supposed to be shot...
Given her character arc in the show though, she wouldn't have turned out like the comic version, so its not a major loss. If anything she could have wound up taking Lilly Caul's place as leader of Woodbury (the tv version of Lilly died right?). ...Had they also not decided to have all the Woodbury folks die and the Governor burn the place down (guess they didn't want the whole post-prison Woodbury plotline).
Wyrmalla wrote: IIRC Andrea was supposed to survive in the Tv Series. For some reason the guys in charge made a last minute decision to kill her off however. Last minute as in changing the script just before the scene was supposed to be shot...
Given her character arc in the show though, she wouldn't have turned out like the comic version, so its not a major loss. If anything she could have wound up taking Lilly Caul's place as leader of Woodbury (the tv version of Lilly died right?). ...Had they also not decided to have all the Woodbury folks die and the Governor burn the place down (guess they didn't want the whole post-prison Woodbury plotline).
She wasn't hugely popular in the show I think and they needed to kill some more cast people I guess - Tv Andrea as Lily could have been interesting having enjoyed the novels about Lily + co. Need to catch up on the newer ones
The prison set was I imagine alot easier to run that using homes - and the Woodbury survivors provided disease fodder.................
The Prison in the first half of Season 4 was a proxy of sorts for post-"battle at the Prison" Woodbury.
In the comics RIck and co. never invited such a large group of people in. The first assault on the Prison was successful, and RIck and co. were driven out.
The show dragged the Prison arc out by having the first assault fail and the Governor went on the run whilst the Prison became a larger community. The second assault on the Prison is when the show re-converged with the comics (the Governor even had a tank the second time around, like in the comics).
I've actually spoiled a bit for myself about the comics, but I still REALLY want them as a Christmas present this year! Like the two big omnibuses. Has the series ended? Or is it still going?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The Prison in the first half of Season 4 was a proxy of sorts for post-"battle at the Prison" Woodbury.
In the comics RIck and co. never invited such a large group of people in. The first assault on the Prison was successful, and RIck and co. were driven out.
The show dragged the Prison arc out by having the first assault fail and the Governor went on the run whilst the Prison became a larger community. The second assault on the Prison is when the show re-converged with the comics (the Governor even had a tank the second time around, like in the comics).
Yeah I know
I found the Governor's bit much more interesting in that season - the prison gave the writters a place where they could make it all uncomfortable and fall apart due to horrible living coniditons, disease etc- more difficult if the players are all living in nice suburben houses.. .... Another reason i can't see Alexandria surviving in the show - the viewers want to see an appocalyptic show not a rebuilding society? Or do they? Might also be harder to sell to the execs:
Option 1 lots of violence and zombies
Option 2 - rebuilding civilisation.
I've actually spoiled a bit for myself about the comics, but I still REALLY want them as a Christmas present this year! Like the two big omnibuses. Has the series ended? Or is it still going?
Still going strong - but obviously further along than the show as its being going much longer....lots of differences - in tone, themes and characters
As a comic reader, I say we're getting both Options.
They are rebuilding civilization, but its going to be extremely violent, walkers will be an ever present threat (we'll see that in the next episode) and there will be an ongoing threat of the new civilization they create collapsing around them.
They are rebuilding civilization, but its going to be extremely violent, walkers will be an ever present threat (we'll see that in the next episode) and there will be an ongoing threat of the new civilization they create collapsing around them.
Maybe maybe..........there seems alot less chance of it happening in the show
They are rebuilding civilization, but its going to be extremely violent, walkers will be an ever present threat (we'll see that in the next episode) and there will be an ongoing threat of the new civilization they create collapsing around them.
Maybe maybe..........there seems alot less chance of it happening in the show
They are rebuilding civilization, but its going to be extremely violent, walkers will be an ever present threat (we'll see that in the next episode) and there will be an ongoing threat of the new civilization they create collapsing around them.
Maybe maybe..........there seems alot less chance of it happening in the show
What?
You've actually been watching the show, right?
You're up to date?
As I said - I am not convinced that a show showing them trying to rebuild will be that well received compared to
1) Travelling
2) "find a place of safety"
3) Bad guys - Zombies/Maruaders trash it and pretty much all the new people
4) Cast move on to try and find next place and the cycle continues.
No comic spoilers here, but IF they're even loosely falling the books, then what the show is doing now will be way more interesting that what you've proposed in that list.
They're going to do both, period. They deal with a lot of threats, whilst rebuilding civilisation. The Wolves are just the first big threat to Alexandria this season. And as of the latest comic issue, they're facing their greatest threat so far, even worse than he-who-shall-not-be-named. If fact they're probably going to need his help if the cover for an upcoming issue turns out to be literally true (unlikely, they're usually misleading).
Alpharius wrote: No comic spoilers here, but IF they're even loosely falling the books, then what the show is doing now will be way more interesting that what you've proposed in that list.
Theres going to be an eye patch. There'll be a headshot with an arrow. And there'll be a gnarly baseball ball. Something messy will happen with said baseball bat and eyeballs. Some nutcase will swear a lot. All Out War. Carl will grow his hair really long and start wearing glasses. There'll be fa fun fair. And some weird people will come with some really disgusting yet genius Halloween costumes.
I think this is actually a point where a *huge* divergence is going to come between the books and the show.
I dont even think the wolves are
Spoiler:
the saviors
as they really just dont fit and it would let them do a whole season vs the wolves and a whole season vs the other guys
this whole season could just have the wolves introduced more, we meet
Spoiler:
jesus and maybe get introduced to his town, possibly the knight town too. I feel like neegan is going to be a big bad of another season entirely. I also think they will throw a wrench in the gears and have him beat rick/destroy or take alexandria rather then end up his prisoner
Well, I think it's interesting that the Wolves seem to have a few similarities to that group.
Spoiler:
Use of zombies as tools, some kind of "man is just another animal" philosophy, etc. But clearly they don't share the most...um...obvious qualities of the Whisperers. Still, it makes me wonder just a little if the writers know they'll never get to the Whisperers in the show and are borrowing a couple basic elements.
Anyway, I think it's clear that the Wolves occupy the Scavengers' place in the story. And we may yet get Derek at the gate. I don't feel like the Wolves storyline is wrapped up yet.
Given by the timeline the Wolves are the scavengers. They'll lead a herd to Alexandria and cause the folks there to have to move to the Hilltop Settlement (which given by the cast list will be in this season). Following that Negan'll turn up unless the Wolves are dragged out (in the comics the scavengers were wiped out before the herd turned up IIRC). Of course this is all going by the comics, but for the most part it doesn't seem like there's a massive divergence. In fact the Wolves may wind up turning to be the guys who were chucked out of Alexandria which were mentioned (in the comics it was just one guy who was thrown out and the scavengers were just randoms).
The Wolves are definitely not the people who were exiled from Alexandria. They were just migrating in the same general direction as Morgan, who was following Rick. After the two leaders ran into Morgan and got their asses kicked, they probably followed his trail.
The only reason they found Alexandria is because they found Aarons backpack with all the photos of Alexandria, and clues to its location - a map, or at the very least the name of Alexandria (e.g. a photo of the sign). We already know that Alexandria is well signposted because we've seen Rick and co. pass by several signs on the road. If you know the name of Alexandria, you just need to follow the signs.
If the Wolves were the people who were thrown out, they would have already known its location, and would have attacked long before Rick arrived.
The Wolves are newcomers to the area, just like Rick and co.
I am really amped up to get home and see what happens! Time to tune out of this thread so I don't spoil anything important for myself. Be back with you gents (and I use the term loosely) after I view it.
Sewer zombies reminded me way too much of Return of the Living Dead. I'm surprised they didn't sneak a line in about "Braaaaiiinnnsss...."
I have to agree that it wasn't great, while it gave some insight into how the Alexandrians are dealing with the aftermath it was anti-climatic just seeing Rick having apparently just sprinted away from his predicament being almost trapped in the R.V. Looking forward to getting back to more of the main cast.
Well, it's TV...if they have a hook that can keep people tuning in, they'll use it. Clearly this ep was slower than the first few of the season. But honestly, I think the characters other than Morgan had been neglected to this point in the season, and some character development was much needed.
Unfortunately, this cast has gotten to be huge. The writers kinda have to split up the cast and juggle them, because trying to update every character in every episode is almost impossible while you're also trying to tell a story.
Maggie's decision was certainly interesting. I still say her character can grow whether Glenn is dead or alive.
Comic spoilers/commentary ahead:
Spoiler:
I thought Jessie might be picking up part of comic Andrea's character as Rick's long-term SO. But right now it seems that Ron is a time bomb. And playing around with guns is only fun until someone loses an eye, right?
I'm now starting to think that relationship is ultimately doomed and that Jessie may be headed the way of her comic book counterpart after all. Guess we'll see.
EDIT: I also liked some of the seeds of hope that got planted in this episode...Rick's conversation with Deanna, Deanna's rediscovered determination, Tara's comment that it isn't the end of the world, etc.
The episode was good enough for me, pacing-wise. I kind of like the mixed tones of these last few episodes.
However, there were a number of behaviors that occurred this episode which really pulled me out of the narrative and left me asking WTF? As I said before, I understand that this is a TV show that constantly needs to have situations turn out badly to continually churn out new drama, and I can accept that, but even with that in mind, there are just things that make me scratch my head (and pull me out of the narrative), such as:
1) When Rick gets back to Alexandria, it is right after they've finished killing off the wolves, yet they didn't have any moments of showing Rick's reaction to someone telling him about it, which seems like it should have been some part of the narrative.
2) Rick tells everyone that they need to just shut the hell up and stay in their houses and the herd will eventually move away, and everyone...goes and does activities right next to the wall? People are burying bodies next to the wall, others are writing names on the wall, Deanna is pounding on the gate, they have people standing right up at the edge of the wall where the walkers can see them? Why? The way they've explained zombie 'herds' before is that when a few walkers get moving, the sounds those walkers make tends to draw other walkers to follow them. So if they all just got inside their houses and shut the hell up, eventually some of the walkers would invariably get drawn away from the wall by a woodland creature or something and some or all of the herd would start following them.
Now, I understand that they 'needed' the herd to sit outside the gates to make the themes of this particular episode fly...but at least they could have shown the town making an effort to be quiet and stay hidden, right? Instead of actively doing a bunch of activities right on the other side of the wall?
3) TWD's cast, especially its 'lesser' characters is so big, that they clearly don't hire those actors to work on episodes unless they've got something for them to actually do, but that always creates a really weird feeling when you wonder: why am I not seeing person 'X' this episode.
For example, suddenly having Aaron show up this episode made me wonder why the hell we hadn't seen him during the Wolves raid? And where the hell was Carol this episode? Maybe they will reveal in a later episode that she is on some secret mission outside the wall during this time, but I don't think so, as they mentioned that Carol was up for guard duty soon (or something like that). So its just strange that Rick would be having a big meeting about what the town should do to survive the herd and Carol, who is usually the person that always helps people see that what Rick is saying is right, was nowhere to be found.
Just a little idiosyncrasy that happens with shows that have ensemble casts (LOST had this issue all the time too), but its always a bit strange when it happens.
1) Rick killed a bunch of people with the w's on their heads so it's not like he'd react with shock. Plus the sound combined with his fight probably indicated a raid. So he's not surprised and we don't need that explanation.
2) Fair enough. The standing up in broad daylight is a bit silly. The sounds in the town though, if moderated, would have been lower than the zombie drone so I'm meh about the sound.
3) I see what you're saying but Aaron was actually at the raid. It surprised me when he wasn't with the herd team but he was killing people with Maggie during the raid. But yeah, we're suffering a bit of bloat right now. Also Carol was there during the speech. She was just glanced over in the filming and didn't have any lines. She might have actually had lines that got cut but she didn't need to stand up for Rick. Aaron (an Alexandrian) was.
Overall solid episode for me. But it's a build up episode too.
When we were watching we did think it was pretty hilarious that Rick was telling everyone to be quiet - whilst shouting near the walls, then as others have noted - everyone goes along and does stuff next to the wall or stand on it in full view to make sure the zombies stay around - yeah I get that its a plot device but.............funny.
It does seem that Rick and crew are the doom incarnate in that everywhere they go they destroy
It was a reasonable episode of non main cast character development.
Carol was making a cake - she is just a stay at home mom remember - I don't think any of the Alexandrians saw her "working" - also she was a bit depressed.
Given the preview flashes I figure Glenn might make it..............
I like that Aaron felt guilt over the photos etc - very different to Morgan who is equally responsible given his stupidity.
After months of speculation and a few casting rumors, The Hollywood Reporter has learned that Jeffrey Dean Morgan has landed the role of the villainous Negan on "The Walking Dead." According to THR's unnamed sources, Morgan will make his first appearance on the show during the midseason finale. The episode will be directed by Greg Nicotero.
Debuting in the landmark 100th issue of Image Comics' "The Walking Dead," Negan made a big entrance into the mythos by taking the life of one (up until that point) long-lasting survivor and member of Rick's crew. In addition to being the leader of the Saviors, Negan is a foul-mouthed and charismatic villain who carries a barbwire-laced bat named Lucille.
THR notes that the casting process for Negan was a long one and that the character was referred to as "Orin," most likely to keep his introduction under wraps. Morgan's character is expected to be around for the long haul, much like his comic book counterpart; he'll recur in season six before becoming a regular in 2016's seventh season. Prior to the casting, "Deadwood" actor Garret Dillahunt campaigned for the role on social media. In addition to Dillahunt, THR notes that Timothy Olyphant and Matt Dillon were also considered for the role at one point.
This is not Morgan's first foray into the comic book world. He played the Comedian in Zack Snyder's 2009 adaptation of "The Watchmen." He will also play Thomas Wayne in "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice" and had a recurring role on the TV series "Supernatural."
Stop watching the show then. He's going to be the main antagonist for probably the next Season and a half, and you're going to be hearing a LOT about him.
I'm wondering if the dude that was holding the gun in the season trailer on Daryl wasn't Negan then (I'm assuming we can say his name now that he's been cast).
I would have LOVED Olyphant in that role. I hope he finds a long term role on the show somewhere now that he's done with Justified. But Jeffrey Dean Morgan is a solid choice. I've liked him in everything I've ever seen him in. Hopefully he managed to get the weight back on he lost for another role before shooting his episodes for this. He looked weird and emaciated and not at all powerful but we'll see.
Stop watching the show then. He's going to be the main antagonist for probably the next Season and a half, and you're going to be hearing a LOT about him.
Maybe - if it translates to TV and it works for the viewers - great in the comic book is not an auto translate - look at what they did to Andrea :(
I've spoiled myself for the comics involving him. I REALLY hope certain events don't come to pass. Spoilers are a pain to make on phone, so I'm leaving it there, hoping it's obvious enough for those already aware, and vague enough for those who don't.
timetowaste85 wrote: Oof. Given what's in the spoiler, I'd say that further affirms that Glenn is still around. I hope/think.
Assuming Glenn's alive, then
Spoiler:
I feel pretty sure that they won't have Negan introduce him to Lucille. It's too repetitive and tiring for the fans to go through the same wringer. Glenn might end up being the "miney" but not the "moe." It'll be another character.
Also, if they just announced that he's cast, that probably means we're looking at the latter part of the back half of the season for his first appearance, right? The Hilltop will probably be the focus after the winter break.
Frazz, I actually think you'll like the guy. "Like" is kind of a relative thing in this instance, but the character has a certain charisma and is most definitely a straight shooter.
Governor from the show was actually pretty good. They massively improved his comic book character. Granted a ton of that was casting and the excellence of the actor. I'm expecting similar levels from this cast member.
I'm just hoping after the trailer for the season and next weeks preview that Daryl is ok.
Daryl is unstoppable. I'd list him as actually the most liked character. His death, unless it was the ULTIMATE sacrifice, would kill the show. Far worse than even losing a Glenn and Maggie team.
Negan is a step up the ladder of civilization from the Governor. The Guv was a simple tyrant. What Negan offers is almost a kind of feudalism.
Negan has MUCH more vision than the Guv ever had. Rick has a little more than Negan.
The show Guv was indeed much better than his comic counterpart. And I have a lot of faith in Gimple's ability to translate the comic to TV, so I'm sure his version will be really good.
But what will they do about the f-bombs? This is a very important question!
As far as the swearing they'll probably tone it down to insults. Saying that the DvD release of the show has more swearing in it than what's aired, so one can hope that when that eventually comes out they'll let some slip in.
I wonder how they'll involve Negan's crossbow armed second? Youknow, given that the author made a joke about him being Daryl. Though I doubt he'd get much screen time till next series.
Hmn, though seeing Daryl being branded would also be interesting.
timetowaste85 wrote: Oof. Given what's in the spoiler, I'd say that further affirms that Glenn is still around. I hope/think.
Assuming Glenn's alive, then
Spoiler:
I feel pretty sure that they won't have Negan introduce him to Lucille. It's too repetitive and tiring for the fans to go through the same wringer. Glenn might end up being the "miney" but not the "moe." It'll be another character.
Also, if they just announced that he's cast, that probably means we're looking at the latter part of the back half of the season for his first appearance, right? The Hilltop will probably be the focus after the winter break.
Frazz, I actually think you'll like the guy. "Like" is kind of a relative thing in this instance, but the character has a certain charisma and is most definitely a straight shooter.
They've already said that
Spoiler:
Negan is first showing up during the 'mid-season finale' episode!
season finale, not midseason finale. Which is an utterly ridiculous invented term. I can't remember anyone calling those episodes that back when I worked in the industry.
season finale, not midseason finale. Which is an utterly ridiculous invented term. I can't remember anyone calling those episodes that back when I worked in the industry.
The midseason finale would have been shot by now.
When you worked in the industry, was it common for shows to break for several months over Christmas? There's nothing ridiculous about it, the show disappears Rom the screen for a few months so a mid season finale is used as a climax and cliff hanger.
season finale, not midseason finale. Which is an utterly ridiculous invented term. I can't remember anyone calling those episodes that back when I worked in the industry.
The midseason finale would have been shot by now.
Well, according to the link I posted earlier:
Spoiler:
After months of speculation and a few casting rumors, The Hollywood Reporter has learned that Jeffrey Dean Morgan has landed the role of the villainous Negan on "The Walking Dead." According to THR's unnamed sources, Morgan will make his first appearance on the show during the midseason finale. The episode will be directed by Greg Nicotero.
Wouldn't "THR" also be "The Hollywood Reporter"?
I guess we'll see one way or the other in 3 weeks!
The character, who sources say first will arrive in the season-six finale directed by Greg Nicotero, is the violent leader of a group known as the Saviors that uses force and intimidation to subjugate other communities — including Alexandria. Negan first appears in the landmark 100th issue when he crosses paths with Rick Grimes, who had been vocal about bringing down the man who takes half the community's supplies in exchange for "protection" from walkers. By comparison, Negan makes David Morrissey's Governor look like a fluffy bunny.
Negan — who went through the casting process under the name of "Orin" — has become the primary villain in the comic series since he shockingly killed Glenn with "Lucille," a baseball bat covered in barbed wire that he carries with him at all times. He's still alive, as of issue 145. Morgan first will join the series as a guest-star before being promoted to series regular for season seven. Morgan was one of multiple actors who had buzz as being in the running at some point for the role, though no others received offers. Production on the season-six finale begins this week in Atlanta.
Like I said, they would have finished the midseason finale a while back.
Having not read the comics this far it did sound like a Feudalistic state from what was being described. Claiming they left because they refused to kneel and so on.
Who thinks the "Help" on the radio they heard was Glenn?
Overall I like this episode a lot more than the last one. We needed a reminder of who some of the heavier hitters in Rick's gang really are. And now Abraham has rockets!!!!
Also people should stop stealing Daryl's crossbow. Not a single person who's done that is still alive....
Kanluwen wrote: Everybody caught what that wooden carved figure was, right?
A knight.
Is there significance? I assume comic-based?
Could be, or it could be an attempt at throwing things off.
Bear in mind I don't read the comics. I've been catching up with that side via the Walking Dead wiki, and it could be that they're...
Spoiler:
Going to introduce The Kingdom before The Saviors or Hilltop Colony
You know, that's a solid call. I just assumed they were starting to lay groundwork for you know who, but that makes a ton more sense with the reference to kneeling. Besides, they didn't seem like the other guy's kind of people. The leader of that group said something like "he didn't want to take this too far. He only wants those who are willing."
So, Dwight and Sherry have been introduced - two characters from the comics. That can't possibly be a coincidence. My guess is they're escapees from you-know-who. They'll get caught. There'll be an iron. And now Dwight has Daryl's crossbow? That probably means Mr. F is doomed.
gorgon wrote: The leader of that group said something like "he didn't want to take this too far. He only wants those who are willing."
The wiki puts it slightly differently...
"He only wanted to take this so far," Wade tells his men. "He only wants ass that's willing."
That does not sound like Mr.E to me. Thats clearly a reference to
Spoiler:
Negan, because Negan does not rape. Ever. He hates sexual violence and kills his own men in a fit of rage when they engage in it. He'll quite happily engage in normal violence however, even against women.
Dwight and Sherry are characters from the comics,
Spoiler:
members of the Saviours. Sherry is Dwight's wife (or girlfriend), but she "sells" herself to Negan, becoming one of his "wives" (concubines) in exchange for special treatment for her and Dwight, food etc. But Dwight and Sherry continue to have contact, meeting in secret, for which Negan punishes Dwight by burning his face with an iron.
I think the next time we see Dwight, his face will have been burned, because Negan caught him and punished him for running away with Sherry.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So, Dwight and Sherry have been introduced - two characters from the comics. That can't possibly be a coincidence. My guess is they're escapees from you-know-who. They'll get caught. There'll be an iron. And now Dwight has Daryl's crossbow? That probably means Mr. F is doomed.
Huh. I checked IMDB after I saw your post. I don't remember hearing the names Dwight and Sherry in the episode, but they're calling them that on IMDB. Wow. The crossbow had me originally thinking a certain group, but the points about the knight and kneeling suggest another direction. Guess we'll see. It's always important to remember that things don't happen in the show exactly as in the books, so we could be looking at
Spoiler:
Dwight and Sherry as former Kingdom members who later get hooked up with the Saviors. We never really got his backstory in the books IIRC.
As for Mr. F, again, not everything happens identically. I think he's also a candidate to be introduced to Ms. L in the season ender.
One of the core cast members. If you've read the comics, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dwight and Sherry, thats what the wiki is calling them.
Yeah, like I said, IMDB says so too. He looks Dwight-y enough, minus you know. Gimple may be placing TWO seeds here in addition to giving us some Dwight backstory.
One of the core cast members. If you've read the comics, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dwight and Sherry, thats what the wiki is calling them.
Yeah, like I said, IMDB says so too. He looks Dwight-y enough, minus you know. Gimple may be placing TWO seeds here in addition to giving us some Dwight backstory.
timetowaste85 wrote: How about for those of us who haven't read the comics, but don't mind spoiling them for ourselves? I appreciate the heads up on Mr. F.
Still kind of upsetting that we still don't know Glenn's fate. I hope it was him yelling for help on the walkie, as suggested last page.
Norman Reedus said in an interview that it is not Glenn.
I could have swore though that they namedropped Dwight in the episode, like halfway through.
timetowaste85 wrote: How about for those of us who haven't read the comics, but don't mind spoiling them for ourselves? I appreciate the heads up on Mr. F.
Still kind of upsetting that we still don't know Glenn's fate. I hope it was him yelling for help on the walkie, as suggested last page.
I dont even think these are the saviours, they just dont seem like it,
I have a feeling mr big bad leader of saviors wont show till the season ender and this will be a wolves + whoever this new group ends up being
good episode though... nice to have one with daryll in it as more then a token character, his arc is really playing out nicely, I just hope he doesnt become such a good guy that he needs to die
..."how Dwight got his crossbow and ended up with Negan and the Saviours" story. He and Shelley were probably running from the Kingdom as the carved knight and the kneeling references suggest.
Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. Or into the iron? There's a pun there somewhere.
timetowaste85 wrote: How about for those of us who haven't read the comics, but don't mind spoiling them for ourselves? I appreciate the heads up on Mr. F.
Still kind of upsetting that we still don't know Glenn's fate. I hope it was him yelling for help on the walkie, as suggested last page.
Norman Reedus said in an interview that it is not Glenn.
I could have swore though that they namedropped Dwight in the episode, like halfway through.
And lies and misdirection happen. Hell the whole talking dead about Stephen/Glenn not being able to make it, blah blah. Until it is fully confirmed, it can't be believed. You know that.
timetowaste85 wrote: How about for those of us who haven't read the comics, but don't mind spoiling them for ourselves? I appreciate the heads up on Mr. F.
Still kind of upsetting that we still don't know Glenn's fate. I hope it was him yelling for help on the walkie, as suggested last page.
Norman Reedus said in an interview that it is not Glenn.
I could have swore though that they namedropped Dwight in the episode, like halfway through.
And lies and misdirection happen. Hell the whole talking dead about Stephen/Glenn not being able to make it, blah blah. Until it is fully confirmed, it can't be believed. You know that.
What more confirmation do you really want/need?
I hate to say it that way but really. There's only so much that actors can/will say. The interview was up on Yahoo, and Reedus flat-out says "I can't say more than it is not Glenn."
I think it's carl, he went out to find enid and now he's in trouble again. It would be funny if it was the caged wolf guy though, he got a hold of morgans radio and is trying to get help. the classic, the call is coming from in your house moment
Well that was another long drawn out episode................We watched it and felt it was a bit dull.
Yeah I get the comics references............and we get to meet more "stupid" people who desperatly try to find ways to get themselves bit. Def the guy looking for them said he only wants willing ass which fits but lot of effort for no return and lost resources/ arm
Another cute blonde girl gets killed in majorily stupid way - ohh look dead people - surely they can't be zombies like the ones that we kept walking past and are still moving.........oh yeah so they are..........oh no what shall we do.
ah well see what happens next week - hope tis better.
I'm just saying, for a show that is famous for misdirection, I won't actually believe it's impossible that it's Glenn until it's announced who it definitely was.
Mr Morden wrote: Well that was another long drawn out episode................We watched it and felt it was a bit dull.
Yeah I get the comics references............and we get to meet more "stupid" people who desperatly try to find ways to get themselves bit. Def the guy looking for them said he only wants willing ass which fits but lot of effort for no return and lost resources/ arm
Another cute blonde girl gets killed in majorily stupid way - ohh look dead people - surely they can't be zombies like the ones that we kept walking past and are still moving.........oh yeah so they are..........oh no what shall we do.
ah well see what happens next week - hope tis better.
Least A got some rockets and cigars
Yep, getting kinda lame really. Not a fan of the comic, but have watched since the season 1 premier. Reminds me of the "Lost" series death throws. Unresolved story arches, too many rabbit holes, when shows writes for longevity, they lose focus, direction, and fans.
TWD -- comic and TV -- is about the characters. The zombie apocalypse is the setting and not the point of the show. The story will always spend time exploring these characters and their relationships.
There are plenty of video games out there that can deliver non-stop zombie action if that's what some people are looking for.
gorgon wrote: TWD -- comic and TV -- is about the characters. The zombie apocalypse is the setting and not the point of the show. The story will always spend time exploring these characters and their relationships.
There are plenty of video games out there that can deliver non-stop zombie action if that's what some people are looking for.
In point of fact =- the zombie stuff this season has been the worst bits for me - at this point the comic characters are pretty cavalier about them as they are seldom the actual main threat - but in the tv show we seem to have people constantly stumbling drunkenly into zombies left right and centre just to show they are still a threat............ I get you need to have dangerous elements but we have the humans for that for the most part - that's kinda the point of much of the story in the comics and the show?
I like the human stuff (even if they keep killing people I like) and relationships but dislike the overly drawn out plot elements - like in last night. The two of us watching just felt it was getting dull, the whole plot with the three on the run seemed very contrived and drawn out and then they double cross Daryl again at the end after the blonde manages to dive headfirst into zombies to get herself killed - it seemed a WTF moment and just to stop the story of who they / the other group were progressing at any kind of pace.
In contrast I quite liked the bit with Abraham and Sasha showing how broken they were but again it seemed a bit forced.
Most of the people this season getting bit have been people with relatively limited exposure to the outside world. The only ones who have been "bit" that dont' fit that profile are really Morgan's sensai and the dude that got bit in the arm last episode that Daryl tricked. Both with, in my opinion, reasonable explanations.
The people used to being out there HAVE been rather cavalier about zombies. I mean the only reason the sewer zombies were an issue was a mild concussion (Aaron) and being so soggy she couldn't get a hold (Maggie). Watch the actual "survivors". The actors are excellent at showing constant awareness combined with a satisfactory sense of confidence and control.
I like this episode. Outside of the girl being stupid (they say she's been in the camp from the beginning) it was a pretty solid episode. And Daryl not just being a back-up man was needed to remind the audience that outside of Rick there aren't many better at surviving.
gorgon wrote: TWD -- comic and TV -- is about the characters. The zombie apocalypse is the setting and not the point of the show. The story will always spend time exploring these characters and their relationships.
There are plenty of video games out there that can deliver non-stop zombie action if that's what some people are looking for.
Maybe it can be moved to daytime with the rest of the soup operas...
Your twisting my point. Did you even read my post? Unresolved story lines... plots slow to develop/resolve...
Video games? Really, you choose to talk down? Classy.
The show is solid, but its obvious the writers are slowing it down. I'm not referring to a gore fest as previous replies assumed. Just get on with the story telling (advance the plot).
I'm don't feel like getting trolled so this is my last response on the matter.
The writers did slow it down for a few episodes for some character work...after a few breakneck episodes that ignored that in favor of action.
I really don't know what to tell you. It's not an all-action, all-the-time kind of show, and it's never been afraid to take its time. It's been like that for 6 seasons and what, 4 showrunners? The show is hardly above criticism, but when people criticize it for not being something that it's never been, I'm sorry -- that just doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
I get that they're stringing the fans along with the "is Glenn alive or dead" thread. But that's what TV does, and it's really not that important to the overall story. Every character other than Rick and Carl are disposable.
gorgon wrote: The writers did slow it down for a few episodes for some character work...after a few breakneck episodes that ignored that in favor of action.
I really don't know what to tell you. It's not an all-action, all-the-time kind of show, and it's never been afraid to take its time. It's been like that for 6 seasons and what, 4 showrunners? The show is hardly above criticism, but when people criticize it for not being something that it's never been, I'm sorry -- that just doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
I get that they're stringing the fans along with the "is Glenn alive or dead" thread. But that's what TV does, and it's really not that important to the overall story. Every character other than Rick and Carl are disposable.
Not sure - it does vary hugely in pace - the first series was good - the second (IMO) was horrible and for me (and friends) its been hit and miss since then - quite a few episodes have been just dull and felt like filler - spinning it out rather than speeding the plot along.
Honestly not that bothered about Glenn - I like him but if he is dead - that is fine - he made (or the writers) made a series of absolutely stupid decisions so dying kinda fits although magely hard on Maggie -also you would have thought he might have been a little careful given her recent state!!
Even the first couple of episodes this season had pacing issues for me - especially the dazed stumble through the woods and fall into the zombies mouths bits - the flash back and forward stuff was just annoying - not in concept another show I am watching had it and worked really well, just execution. The Morgan episode was just boring about people I had / have no interest in - could have been done is a quarter of the time and had some meaning.
gorgon wrote: The writers did slow it down for a few episodes for some character work...after a few breakneck episodes that ignored that in favor of action.
I really don't know what to tell you. It's not an all-action, all-the-time kind of show, and it's never been afraid to take its time. It's been like that for 6 seasons and what, 4 showrunners? The show is hardly above criticism, but when people criticize it for not being something that it's never been, I'm sorry -- that just doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
I get that they're stringing the fans along with the "is Glenn alive or dead" thread. But that's what TV does, and it's really not that important to the overall story. Every character other than Rick and Carl are disposable.
Not sure - it does vary hugely in pace - the first series was good - the second (IMO) was horrible and for me (and friends) its been hit and miss since then - quite a few episodes have been just dull and felt like filler - spinning it out rather than speeding the plot along.
Honestly not that bothered about Glenn - I like him but if he is dead - that is fine - he made (or the writers) made a series of absolutely stupid decisions so dying kinda fits although magely hard on Maggie -also you would have thought he might have been a little careful given her recent state!!
Even the first couple of episodes this season had pacing issues for me - especially the dazed stumble through the woods and fall into the zombies mouths bits - the flash back and forward stuff was just annoying - not in concept another show I am watching had it and worked really well, just execution. The Morgan episode was just boring about people I had / have no interest in - could have been done is a quarter of the time and had some meaning.
Well I strongly recommend you stop watching the show. If you're not liking this season so far it's fair to say you'll always be unhappy with the show. No need to put yourself through that.
timetowaste85 wrote: How about for those of us who haven't read the comics, but don't mind spoiling them for ourselves? I appreciate the heads up on Mr. F.
Still kind of upsetting that we still don't know Glenn's fate. I hope it was him yelling for help on the walkie, as suggested last page.
Norman Reedus said in an interview that it is not Glenn.
I could have swore though that they namedropped Dwight in the episode, like halfway through.
Norman Reedus probably said that because he can't say who it is. Speculation is that its Glenn. Five years of listening to people talk on police style radios leaves me to believe it was Glenn aswell.
Well, Glenn's not dead. Under the trash can for the win. And he's still trying to save people. That building still being up (and towering over the town on the outside) just shows how inept the Alexandrians are in the new world.
So midseason finale seems like it's going to be surviving and then possibly (if they finish it) removing the herd from Alexandria. Lots of dead Alexandrians in our future unless they manage to fort up decently.
Also I can't be the only one who was laughing as Carl was "helping" teach that kid to use a handgun. Everything he said made that kid give him a look of death.
I'm also pretty sure I hear Glenn croak out a "help" while trapped under the dumpster. I may be hunting Kan down for a "my bad" response-will check again after work. Don't go running away now, Kan! I still think that was him on the walkie, regardless of what Reedus said.
Timing actually would be about right for the croaking help from glenn. It'll also make it more likely that we'll see Darryl, Abraham, Glenn, and Sasha use the gas truck to create a bonfire to pull the zombies out of Alexandria and burn themselves up.
I'm also pretty sure I hear Glenn croak out a "help" while trapped under the dumpster. I may be hunting Kan down for a "my bad" response-will check again after work. Don't go running away now, Kan! I still think that was him on the walkie, regardless of what Reedus said.
I don't think it was glen, it's more like a timing point like the horn. and next episode we'll see who's asking for help. From beginning to end as a title seems to me like they're going to wrap up all these parallel stories for the mid season.
I will say that Walking Dead generally doesn't do ridiculous cliffhanger crap for mid or full season finales. Its something I actually appreciate. The closest to a "cliffhanger" was being trapped in Terminus. But that still brought the entire group together and wrapped up the season.
So I'm hoping they do the same basic thing and wrap up these 3-4 days in the life of Alexandrians and all the people involved before they go on break.
Isn't the wall falling what triggers Rick's new woman and her son dying, Carl getting his eye shot, and the realization that they can hold against a horde of zombies if they just fight with hand to hand weapons together and don't break?
Isn't the wall falling what triggers Rick's new woman and her son dying, Carl getting his eye shot, and the realization that they can hold against a horde of zombies if they just fight with hand to hand weapons together and don't break?
Don't remember about the woman and her son, but yes to the rest.
Funny thing is Rick's crew already knows you can fight with hand weapons and win against stupid numbers of walkers if you don't break. That's how they cleared the prison. They've just gotten lazy because zombies haven't really been the threat for the last season 2 seasons Though to be fair there are all of what, 6 people left from that group and 2 of them are outside the walls and one inside is a teen.
Might be part of why they showed Rosita training people though. So that if they go that route they have an excuse for it working.
However, it will be really interesting to see what might change from the comic.
Spoiler:
I still think Jessie has a chance to live by picking up comic Andrea's storyline. That's a sizable hole in the show storyline, and they're still doing that blender thing in the translation from comic to show. Note that in the comic it was Holly who had a fling with Abraham. Of course, Holly is already dead in the show (having died on the table), and now Sasha seems to be picking up that material.
On the other hand, Jessie's fate in the comic would certainly get some watercooler talk going the next day.
Still, I could easily see Jessie surviving and Sasha ending up being the one at the Sanctuary in place of Holly.
However, it will be really interesting to see what might change from the comic.
Spoiler:
I still think Jessie has a chance to live by picking up comic Andrea's storyline. That's a sizable hole in the show storyline, and they're still doing that blender thing in the translation from comic to show. Note that in the comic it was Holly who had a fling with Abraham. Of course, Holly is already dead in the show (having died on the table), and now Sasha seems to be picking up that material.
On the other hand, Jessie's fate in the comic would certainly get some watercooler talk going the next day.
Still, I could easily see Jessie surviving and Sasha ending up being the one at the Sanctuary in place of Holly.
They're blending skill sets and attitudes quite a bit. I feel like Carol actually picked up quite a bit of the Andrea personality up to where I'd read in the comics. Sasha just has the sharp shooter thing going for her which Carol proved she could do just fine at Terminus.
Hulksmash wrote: They're blending skill sets and attitudes quite a bit. I feel like Carol actually picked up quite a bit of the Andrea personality up to where I'd read in the comics. Sasha just has the sharp shooter thing going for her which Carol proved she could do just fine at Terminus.
Carol kicks ass full stop
Also a friend suggested
Spoiler:
Morgan = Jesus
?
Personally I hope not as I find the comics character cool and the Tv show one deeply, (Noah style) annoying
And regarding Andrea, that's one of the major mistakes made early in the show, IMO (right there with "splitting" comic Rick into TV Rick and Shane). She's a great character...I have no idea why they translated her into someone so unlikable. And they're still juggling characters trying to correct the situation and fill that void. Right now there's no one character who replaces comic Andrea, nor do I think there will be...that role effectively has been dispersed over a few female characters.
Which I actually think is good. It gives more story and individuality to the various females on the show.
As for the show Andrea yeah. I don't know why she was so horrible in the show. But that was back when they were consciously trying to distance themselves from the comics. Gimple has a different style and approach (and it's working very, very well for TWD) than the first 2 show runners had. Show runner 3 and Gimple worked on shifting it back to the comics.
Alpharius wrote: Not too much I hope as I quite like many of the changes so far.
That's actually something I really enjoy. I LIKE that I can watch the show without having people who've read the comics spoiling big things for me, even accidentally.
Alpharius wrote: Not too much I hope as I quite like many of the changes so far.
That's actually something I really enjoy. I LIKE that I can watch the show without having people who've read the comics spoiling big things for me, even accidentally.
Its definately a good thing to go their own way - even if i think the comics story has been better overall - some good stuff in the show - Daryl/ Carol/Beth and others........
We just watched the latest epsiode - lots of good Rick stuff, not enough Carol but its coming Happy to see Glenn alive but wasn't bothered either way really
Looks like another cull of non name and vaguely recall their name Alexandrians coming up - jeez they keep finding more of them to sacrrfice - there must have been loads that never did anything or came to any of the meetings Former gun bunny girl was fun with the machette training - hopefully they kill offf the priest and the fake scientist.
Finally they called Morgan out on his B@$gak - Hurrah!!
Except not enough - given his action towards the end - seriously........I'd rather let someone else do the hard things cos I don't want to.........lets see who else dies as a direct result of my actions so I can feel a bit bad. even worse lets conceal insane psychos that could break free or turn into zombies - total idiot.
I don't think the "help" could have been Glenn considering the timing of when you saw it happen in the previous episode. Daryl, Abraham and what's her name all spent the night somewhere and then met up sometime during the next day and headed back to Alexandria, which is when they heard the "help". That's about the same time when Glenn is on the road walking back to Alexandria himself.
So I'm pretty sure it is going to be someone inside of Alexandria trapped by walkers who calls out for "help".
Alpharius wrote: Not too much I hope as I quite like many of the changes so far.
That's actually something I really enjoy. I LIKE that I can watch the show without having people who've read the comics spoiling big things for me, even accidentally.
It's fun for the people who have read the comics too.
I have reasons to think that one female character might die in the very next episode. And I have reasons to think that she might be a cast member 3 seasons from now. I really don't know which way it's going to go, even though I know where the larger story's headed.
Ive been following the show for a while, and I got as far as book 7 in the comics, am I right in saying that there is a little bit too much filler content in the show or is that me just being picky?
Daemonhammer wrote: Ive been following the show for a while, and I got as far as book 7 in the comics, am I right in saying that there is a little bit too much filler content in the show or is that me just being picky?
Thats always going to be subjective - I think there is too much - others will disagree It only matters if you think there is or is not.
There is actually a hell of a lot of filler in the show. Usually its good. They really know how to stretch out the source material.
The Terminus Cannibals and Wolves were originally very small and minor groups who only appeared in a handful of issues each, but the show inflated their numbers and turned them into several episode long story arcs.
I find the little conversations they have, the little heart-to-hearts, in the show....not good most of the time. Many times in the comic I've been taken aback or really interested in the conversation but not in the show. Maybe it's me, maybe I pay more attention to written fiction than spoken but I honestly think the show's dialogue isn't that great. For some reason they take the overall arc of the comic but none of the dialogue. They seem to completely rewrite all dialogue from scratch for the show which is a shame because the book has a pretty good script IMO.
Hmmm, that scene with the Wolf guy escaping might have been the dumbest thing TWD has ever done.
It is definitely right up there...
We're supposed to think he can make it out of there alive and well, dragging Denise along?
I suppose we might find out that he just offs her ASAP, but still...
I don't think we're meant to think anything other than that he went out the door, which apparently wasn't crowded with walkers when Carol and Morgan entered. I expect the next episode will pick up seconds after this one ended, so I'm sure we'll get some quick resolution. I don't think Denise is going to die, and won't be surprised if we get some kind of minor twist involving the Wolf.
Morgan may have been wrong to let him live, but he was right that it was something that could have waited given the situation outside. Carol's losing her grip...that was NOT the clear-headed Carol we're used to seeing.
It's also interesting to note that Sam, who has gone full-on crazy recluse ever since being traumatized by Carol (something they reminded us of with his drawing), is also about to get people killed. Although given the horrific situation, I doubt pre-trauma Sam would have kept his gak together. It will be very interesting to see if the escape there goes as it did in the comic. If so...that'll get some water cooler talk going next year. LOL.
And of course, the preview gave us the first official mention of one Mr. Negan.
So if not for the Wolf scene I would have mostly enjoyed tonights episode (only other issue is the "cliffhanger/unresolved" crap that they normally don't do). That scene did dampen my enjoyment though. The sheer stupid of it was frustrating.
Carl was awesome. And a huge change from the kid who blasted a dude who might or might not have been surrendering.
I guess I'd agree that the scene and what led up to it was kinda dumb, other than as a way to give those two good actors a dramatic moment and create a kind of physical manifestation of the battle for Alexandria's soul.
But again, perhaps it was an intentional choice to show that Carol -- although not wrong -- is headed for a breakdown. There's no reason to pick THAT fight -- which she's probably not going to win -- at that juncture while her people are in trouble. Morgan tells her as much.
Deanna was fething badass! Choosing to give them hell instead of meekly opting out like Nicholas, and that roar of defiance.
And the manner of her death I think may settle the debate once and for all over a certain upcoming, er...injury.
Spoiler:
If Deanna's making her last stand inside the house, theres no chance that she'll accidentally hit Carl and shoot his eye out. In fact it appears she ran out of bullets.
Although, its still possible some other character will be the one to accidentally shoot him, Jessie probably.
It could also happen to a different character. They could pull a Merle Dixon again, and do it to a minor supporting character rather than a main cast character, so they can cut costs on prosthetics and special effects simply because the supporting character features in fewer episodes.
Spoiler:
Maybe they'll give the friendly fire gunshot wound to Ron instead. In the comics Jessie only had one son, Ron, but Sammy is clearly the TV show incarnation (young, scared, gets himself killed). Ron could be a proxy for Carl, like Merle was a proxy for Rick with the amputated hand. And since Deanna ran out of bullets and can't possibly be the one responsible, maybe it'll be...Jessie? Sammy gets bit, draws attention to himself and his mom, and in her panic and death throes Jessie accidentally shoots her other son Ron. Wouldn't that be a sick twist?
they won't make it, and I'm thinking Jessie + maybe Sam (is that her younger son's name?) will get eaten, with Ron filling in for "Douglas", shooting wildly, hitting Carl in the face, etc.
All of this will lead to the introduction
Spoiler:
of Jesus, Hilltop and the Saviors too though, so get ready for some Interesting Times!
I love that I know how it went in the books, but don't really know how it'll all go down on the show.
They're clearly setting up something similar to the books, though. They made a point to show
Spoiler:
them holding hands, and that Rick has a hatchet with him. Someone who won't let go is gonna lose an appendage. If it's Jessie (I'm not 100% convinced that it will be), then yeah...lots of water cooler talk over that one, like I said.
And yeah, it's such a great time in the story. I've been telling friends who haven't read the books that although there's a lot of short-term insanity going on in the show right now, they're on the cusp of a whole new phase of the story.
gorgon wrote: I love that I know how it went in the books, but don't really know how it'll all go down on the show.
They're clearly setting up something similar to the books, though. They made a point to show
Spoiler:
them holding hands, and that Rick has a hatchet with him. Someone who won't let go is gonna lose an appendage. If it's Jessie (I'm not 100% convinced that it will be), then yeah...lots of water cooler talk over that one, like I said.
And yeah, it's such a great time in the story. I've been telling friends who haven't read the books that although there's a lot of short-term insanity going on in the show right now, they're on the cusp of a whole new phase of the story.
Agreed!
I find myself enjoying the show MORE knowing that they'll be doing things differently than in the comics.
And for the most part, I usually end up enjoying where the show takes us more - but I do miss Comic Book Andrea - she's awesome!
gorgon wrote: I love that I know how it went in the books, but don't really know how it'll all go down on the show.
They're clearly setting up something similar to the books, though. They made a point to show
Spoiler:
them holding hands, and that Rick has a hatchet with him. Someone who won't let go is gonna lose an appendage. If it's Jessie (I'm not 100% convinced that it will be), then yeah...lots of water cooler talk over that one, like I said.
And yeah, it's such a great time in the story. I've been telling friends who haven't read the books that although there's a lot of short-term insanity going on in the show right now, they're on the cusp of a whole new phase of the story.
Agreed!
I find myself enjoying the show MORE knowing that they'll be doing things differently than in the comics.
And for the most part, I usually end up enjoying where the show takes us more - but I do miss Comic Book Andrea - she's awesome!
That's what has me thinking that the walk won't go down exactly as in the books.
Spoiler:
Admittedly things don't look good for Jessie, but I just still have the feeling that she's picking up comic Andrea material as Rick's squeeze. Give her a couple scars and she'd look like Andrea.
And show Jessie seems like a much tougher girl than book Jessie. But I may be wildly wrong. *shrug*
I'm going to spoiler my question as it's probably book/comic related:
Spoiler:
So based on what we just saw in the finale, where Rick's group is just exiting the house in a daisy-chain, that Jessie's youngest son is going to freak out, thus attracting the munching mob?
That Jessie won't let go of her son... forcing Rick to lop off her hand to save her and the rest of the group?
I'm going to spoiler my question as it's probably book/comic related:
Spoiler:
So based on what we just saw in the finale, where Rick's group is just exiting the house in a daisy-chain, that Jessie's youngest son is going to freak out, thus attracting the munching mob?
That Jessie won't let go of her son... forcing Rick to lop off her hand to save her and the rest of the group?
That'd be one hella water-cooler talk for sure...
Is that how it goes down in the book?
More like
Spoiler:
He lops off her hand (holding Carl's) so that Carl can get free, leaving her to be devoured by walkers. Granted, she's bitten and therefore dead already.
I'm going to spoiler my question as it's probably book/comic related:
Spoiler:
So based on what we just saw in the finale, where Rick's group is just exiting the house in a daisy-chain, that Jessie's youngest son is going to freak out, thus attracting the munching mob?
That Jessie won't let go of her son... forcing Rick to lop off her hand to save her and the rest of the group?
That'd be one hella water-cooler talk for sure...
Is that how it goes down in the book?
More like
Spoiler:
He lops off her hand (holding Carl's) so that Carl can get free, leaving her to be devoured by walkers. Granted, she's bitten and therefore dead already.
Deanna definitely had one of the strongest parts in this episode.
As for Jessie taking over comic-book Andrea's role, isn't her role already spread out among several different warrior female types already with Carol, Sasha, and Rosita? Plus whoever else. I'm not sure they'll make her into another, unless there's a culling somewhere else.
Although concussion might have been a factor, she was barely holding it together and was having a meltdown. I think she'll end up committing suicide like she did in the comics. In the comics she never became the strong character that she did in the show, but all the things shes done and experienced are clearly weighing on her psyche now. She will see or find out out what happens to Sam (NOM NOM NOM) and the last straw will be when she finds the picture he drew of himself tied to a tree being attacked by walkers...which is what she threatened to do to him.
Realizing the role she played in traumatizing him (which contributed to his death) will break her.
Sinful Hero wrote: Deanna definitely had one of the strongest parts in this episode.
As for Jessie taking over comic-book Andrea's role, isn't her role already spread out among several different warrior female types already with Carol, Sasha, and Rosita? Plus whoever else. I'm not sure they'll make her into another, unless there's a culling somewhere else.
Not really. Show Rosita is pretty much book Rosita. Both Carol and Sasha have picked up sniper material, but Carol only once, and Sasha gets material from different places, including (apparently) Holly. And to get to the point...none of them are Rick's girlfriend, or figure to be.
Although concussion might have been a factor, she was barely holding it together and was having a meltdown. I think she'll end up committing suicide like she did in the comics. In the comics she never became the strong character that she did in the show, but all the things shes done and experienced are clearly weighing on her psyche now. She will see or find out out what happens to Sam (NOM NOM NOM) and the last straw will be when she finds the picture he drew of himself tied to a tree being attacked by walkers...which is what she threatened to do to him.
Realizing the role she played in traumatizing him (which contributed to his death) will break her.
That might be a good call. It's easy to forget that Carol was ready to go off on her own (and die?) when they were all at Gabriel's church.
The stupid fight that Carol and Morgan had that allowed the Wolf guy to get the knife is not even what bothered me so much about the scene...while ultimately the behavior of both Carol and Morgan in that situation was idiotic, it still followed the fundamental rules that have been presented about those characters. Morgan has been shown to make stupid decisions in his quest to enforce his dogma and Carol, although usually shrewd, could easily be affected by the pressure of the zombie breech and the head trauma into making a questionable decision to escalate the situation.
No, what was really stupid/unbelievable was how the Wolf guy obtained the guns. It was shown and clearly known by all the characters that the Wolves have absolutely no regard for the lives of anyone outside their group and that they *gleefully* kill people. So giving the Wolf guy their guns should have been an absolute impossibility because those characters should have believed that the second he got their guns he would shoot them all...and given how the show has portrayed the Wolves, that's exactly what he should have done. The fact that he didn't shoot them all and just take the hostage he needs to throw to the walkers does not make consistent sense with what had been previously shown.
There's some other stupid stuff about that whole scenario, like Morgan even considering leaving the medic chick alone with the Wolf guy, when the only way he was restrained was around his wrists (like he couldn't attack and kill her with his wrists bound?), but having them give him their guns was just mind-blowing stupid and inconsistent....and pointless. They easily could have had the same scene of him escaping without those 3 dopes walking in to give him their guns.
I can't tell if this season really is so bad as I think, or if my admittedly rampant zombie fanboyism led me to overlook major parts of the other seasons.
I will still watch the show religiously, even Fear the Walking Dead, which was pretty bad overall, because, well, zombies. But so far, this season has been plot hole after terrible directing after terrible characterization all season. I really hope that Negan can help change things, or that Gimple leaves the show.
I fully understand you need to have suspension of disbelief in a show about zombies, but not every character needs to be a fething helpless idiot. How many women have fallen running trope from zombies in this season so far? The leg girl in ep 3, 2 in this last episode alone; it's just tiring. This isn't at the outbreak, we're almost if not more than 2 years in. Survivors wouldn't keep making these types of mistakes. Or else they wouldn't be survivors.
I'd like to just touch on how horribly directed and shamelessly written the whole Glen debacle was.
-They fall off the dumpster, head and upper body away, As bodies would fall in such a scenario. The next scene shows Glen's head clearly pointed towards the dumpster.
-Next, dozens of zombies apparently can only attack Nicholas. Fine. But they show zombies literally reaching over Glen to attack Nick. Whatever, they're Z's.
-So he shimmies under the dumpster, the easy, poorly written out that many fans guessed right away. Somehow 150+ lbs of Nick's dead weight, plus a dozen+ Z's weight pushing down, doesn't stop him from quickly getting away. Have a friend lay on top of you, see how fast you can move on your back. Just one, let alone 12+.
-Glen kills a few, blocks off the dumpster. Cool so far, they don't know how to move an object to get what they want. But a few hours later and all the Z's are gone? One night and they all leave a kill and the smell of fresh meat in a one way out alley because....?
- Of course Enid is on the roof of the exact building behind where Glen is hiding from a horde of zombies because plot. Fine, most survivors on their own usually go towards large masses of zombies because plot. But was it supposed to be suspenseful when she pulled a gun on him?
-Not really gonna touch on the shameless ploy of pulling Yuen's name from the credits. While cheesy as hell, I'm sure it's been done before and is standard in TV nowadays. If not, it's just even cheesier.
I still love the Walking Dead, and I'm not asking for a survivor's guide to the ZA in it, but at least have some fething rational characters.
Slightly off-topic, but does anyone know why Hollywood seems to be missing the survival-horror-drama aspect of zombie lore that WD has clearly shown to have a market for? I mean we've had a plethora of zombie-comedies, which are great also, but really nothing in the actual horror genre since Rodriguez's 2004 Dawn of the Dead remake.
Well besides the cinematic abortion that was World War Z. Seems like they are missing out on huge chunks of money. People love zombies because while supernatural, they represent a fear of other, normal humans. The true barbarity of man type of thing. At least IMO.
The stupid fight that Carol and Morgan had that allowed the Wolf guy to get the knife is not even what bothered me so much about the scene...while ultimately the behavior of both Carol and Morgan in that situation was idiotic, it still followed the fundamental rules that have been presented about those characters. Morgan has been shown to make stupid decisions in his quest to enforce his dogma and Carol, although usually shrewd, could easily be affected by the pressure of the zombie breech and the head trauma into making a questionable decision to escalate the situation.
No, what was really stupid/unbelievable was how the Wolf guy obtained the guns. It was shown and clearly known by all the characters that the Wolves have absolutely no regard for the lives of anyone outside their group and that they *gleefully* kill people. So giving the Wolf guy their guns should have been an absolute impossibility because those characters should have believed that the second he got their guns he would shoot them all...and given how the show has portrayed the Wolves, that's exactly what he should have done. The fact that he didn't shoot them all and just take the hostage he needs to throw to the walkers does not make consistent sense with what had been previously shown.
There's some other stupid stuff about that whole scenario, like Morgan even considering leaving the medic chick alone with the Wolf guy, when the only way he was restrained was around his wrists (like he couldn't attack and kill her with his wrists bound?), but having them give him their guns was just mind-blowing stupid and inconsistent....and pointless. They easily could have had the same scene of him escaping without those 3 dopes walking in to give him their guns.
Agreed - again some good moments as they continued to work through the non-main cast.
The whole wolf scene was just bad - very bad - for all the reasons above........
Note however, that the Wolves seem to avoid the use of firearms. We know that they have a code -- some kind of civilization-is-dead, nature-is-taking-back-what's-hers thing.
So while the threat of the gun helped him escape, perhaps it's against his beliefs to use that particular bit of technology to kill the others in the room.
There are possibilities to consider before one jumps straight to "this writing is horribad!"
gorgon wrote: Note however, that the Wolves seem to avoid the use of firearms. We know that they have a code -- some kind of civilization-is-dead, nature-is-taking-back-what's-hers thing.
So while the threat of the gun helped him escape, perhaps it's against his beliefs to use that particular bit of technology to kill the others in the room.
There are possibilities to consider before one jumps straight to "this writing is horribad!"
They don't use guns because they haven't had ammo. The other leader was certainly fine taking shots at Rick in the RV.
Honestly as good as these people have gotten with head shots and the fact that a convulsion wouldn't have caused a gun to go off I'm shocked they didn't just put a bullet in his head and end it. That would have been appropriate and redeemed the scene.
I get showing Carol having a breakdown and confusion. I think it's a good thing to show she isn't 100% certain in all she does. It makes her a stronger character. But the towns only "doctor" being left in a room alone with a dude who's a thru and thru killer who's only bound at his hands (and oddly not his feet) was just ridiculous. It was just a poor scene that hurt an otherwise solid episode.
We were watching the show between episodes of Vikings Season 3 - damn thats an awesome show...............
He's not an idiot though, he's a man with moral conviction. Morgan was a wolf himself, killing everyone he came across, and he's now the moral compass of the group. And we know how that works out in the show. I'm thinking morgans actions will show rick it's still possible to be humane which leads to (if they follow the comic)
Spoiler:
rick letting negan live and keeping him in jail instead of just killing him
We were watching the show between episodes of Vikings Season 3 - damn thats an awesome show...............
He's not an idiot though, he's a man with moral conviction. Morgan was a wolf himself, killing everyone he came across, and he's now the moral compass of the group. And we know how that works out in the show. I'm thinking morgans actions will show rick it's still possible to be humane which leads to (if they follow the comic)
Spoiler:
rick letting negan live and keeping him in jail instead of just killing him
Morgan has just potentially got the only person with medical skills thrown to the walkers - I don't think Rick will be thanking him! Banishing maybe if he is lucky.
Sorry but I think he is an idiot - a selfish one who values his convictions more than others lives - this can be seen clearly in that:
He has repeatedly got other people killed through his choices - so much so that he is now concealing highly dangerous psycho killers from everyone else in the vain hope he can brainwash them.
He nearly got Rick killed by letting Wolves armed with stolen guns escape when he could have stopped them.
He was more interested in tying captured wolves up than stopping other wolves hacking up other women and children.
I do not feel he is not a moral compass but he is a driven fanatic - which is fair enough but he is now so focussed on his beliefs that are keeping him "sane" that he will threaten, injure and put at risk others in his group.
Carl was much more interesting to me in how he is evolving - but again he would put down the wolf.
Hulksmash wrote: I rarely agree with Morden but I do in this case. He's not a moral compass. He's a selfish fanatic.
Carl and Glenn are far closer to moral compasses than Morgan has ever been.
In fact many of the main cast have been acting in this role this season - Micholine has called out Rick several times and even the doomed Alexandrians have done so effectively, usually just before they die.
He only has one tennet of faith - never kill - whatever harm that might cause you and yours.
Just to inject a little clarity here -- Morgan isn't dangerous because he's unwilling to kill. They aren't a warband on the road anymore. They're a community, and not everyone in the community needs to be a killer. Jailing the Wolf wasn't even particularly dangerous, as the location seemed secure enough. How he put them all at risk was by not telling everyone about the Wolf's existence.
And it's important to note that although the Wolf's presence was on Morgan, it was Carol's careless and selfish action that led to the Wolf's escape. It's almost like neither of them are right, and that some kind of middle ground should be the path forward.
As sirlynchmob pointed out, they are laying some important seeds here regarding the need to kill. In fact, right now the comic is dealing with the repercussions of a decision made by Rick down the road quite a ways from the show. And it remains to be seen if that decision was a wise one or not, although I have my suspicions.
Y'know, now that I think about it, it occurs to me that
Spoiler:
it will likely be Morgan who gets the face-to-face meeting with Lucille. That gives Rick a clearer reason to avoid killing Negan...it's not what his friend would have wanted, even on his killer.
Morgan is dangerous because he is a fanatic with only one tennet of his faith - thou shall not kill - nothing or no one else matters
He is like all fanatics - he is right -- full stop - he can not be argued with because his grip on sanity depends now on this one idea and people are dying because of him - and that may well break him again.
The community rules are currently as laid down by rick (as law enforcer) and the soon to be dead leader of the community - if you are a killer - you die - thats their law - right or wrong thats what they have decided.
The problem with not being prepared to kill in the situation they find themselves is that someone else has to do it for you - thats the horribly selfish part of his delusion.
The show copped badly out by having the wolf escapee not gun down people as a consequence. i hope they do not cop out further..............
No, that's a distortion to suit your argument. Morgan's belief is that all life is precious -- quite the opposite of "nothing else matters". Clearly he will take action to protect others, including incapacitating and jailing enemies. It's just that killing isn't on his menu.
And how many deaths do we actually have as a result of Morgan's actions? Yes, letting those Wolves almost had repercussions (although note that they did LEAVE Alexandria, and had Rick not been in that particular spot it likely would have been the last they saw of them). And the loose Wolf might yet have repercussions, although it was Carol's inability to table the matter that led to his release. But there are always repercussions, even when (especially when?) you kill. In the comic...
Spoiler:
How did killing Saviors work out for them? They lost Glenn, Abraham, and then many others in the "all-out war" that followed.
The war might have been inevitable, but remember that Abraham's and Glenn's deaths were specifically stated to be repayments for the Saviors that Rick's crew killed. THOSE could have been avoided with a little less hubris and thirst for blood on Rick's part.
That's part of the reason why Negan is such a great character. He takes Rick down a couple notches and ultimately helps him see the big picture.
He disarmed the wolves who later killed various people in Alexandria - left them in the car - everyone who was killed by them or their friends who are likely to have followed him after being humiliated - thats on him and anyone else they killed because he let them go -even knowing what they were. Humilating psycho killers is a bad idea - it just provokes them.
They then found the photos in the bag and Alexandria. They came with all their psycho friends and hacked up men, women and children - the now dead people who he did not warn about the wolves - cos "reasons".
People were still being slaughtered when he tried to caputure the one wolf - people who he might have been able to save.
He let the wolves escape with firearms - and we saw the result of that - luckily no one died - but they could have - again thats all on him - as he was called out on.
Morgan is still massively damaged - and yes his belief in the sancty of life is the only thread that is keeping him going - hence he is prepared to risk the lives of everyone - if the trainee doctor woman dies - thats on him (and Carol) - but it wouldn't have been a problem if he had
1) Killed the raving psycho
2) Handed him over the town - the nearest they have to authorities
Like I said the IMO show coped out on the escaping wolf no blasting everyone once he got the guns.
re not killing - how did that work out for all the nice non-main cast Alexandrians/ former residents of the Giovernors town?
re the comic and killing:
Spoiler:
The comic has shown repeatedly its often kill or be killed.
What would have happened if Carl had killed negan - he might have died but there likely would have been no war without Negans driving force of personaility - killing can be good or bad - its not black and white in there or the show IMO
Think Abraham might have learned a few tricks.....notice the Pelican cases were not on the fuel truck? Think Abraham rigged the rockets as IED's on the fuel truck.
A small detail people might have missed (I know I did).
#6 at 4:29.
It appears Maggie might have been injured somehow on her right thigh. When Deanna runs outside to bring Rick to her house, she starts shooting wildly at the walkers. Its possible that she might have hit Maggie in the leg with a stray bullet, which would explain how a hardened experienced survivor suddenly begins tripping over herself as she tries to flee
It appears Maggie might have been injured somehow on her right thigh. When Deanna runs outside to bring Rick to her house, she starts shooting wildly at the walkers. Its possible that she might have hit Maggie in the leg with a stray bullet, which would explain how a hardened experienced survivor suddenly begins tripping over herself as she tries to flee
Spoiler:
hmm that does make sense as an awful lot of people seemed to loose the ability to walk.............never mind run
Frazzled wrote: OK finally caught up. Wow, lots of stupid there.
Not certain I'll watch further.
I know what you mean - this season we found it pretty turgid - some nice character stuff but equally tway too much focus on charcters that nether of us liked - especially Morgan.
Also it seemed to pretty much wipe out all the named Alexandrians - ( though there is pretty much an unimlited amount of background ones to die at approrpiate moments)
I think we are just left with:
Aeron and partner - who were only notable by their absence from most of the season
Ricks love interest - about to be eaten with kids
Dr Girl - about to be thrown to the zombies by evil wolf guy (unless they cop out on this again)
Is there anyone else left?
Given that pretty much anywhere that Ricks crew spends time in is devestated and destroyed , Negan should just be like:
"Whoa - didn't realise you were "those" guys - no we don't want anything to do with you - people who do - die - see ya!"
Aaron. Erik. Denise (the nurse who was held hostage by the wolf). Tobin. Spencer (Deanna's second son). Jesse, Ron and Sam Anderson (Rick's girlfriend). Heath (the black supply runner). Scott (the other black guy, and Heath's friend). Francine (the woman who fell off the JCB at the construction site, and was saved by Abraham).
There are still a lot more named Alexandrians left alive, its just that we see so little of them all that we forget their names quickly. They're all so forgettable.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: Given that pretty much anywhere that Ricks crew spends time in is devestated and destroyed , Negan should just be like:
"Whoa - didn't realise you were "those" guys - no we don't want anything to do with you - people who do - die - see ya!"
"Oh you sweet Summer child"...
Negan is going to break that trend. And by break I mean he's going to flip it over and feth it up the fething arse while shouting "Who's your fething Daddy?"
Frazzled wrote: OK finally caught up. Wow, lots of stupid there.
Not certain I'll watch further.
I know what you mean - this season we found it pretty turgid - some nice character stuff but equally tway too much focus on charcters that nether of us liked - especially Morgan.
Also it seemed to pretty much wipe out all the named Alexandrians - ( though there is pretty much an unimlited amount of background ones to die at approrpiate moments)
I think we are just left with:
Aeron and partner - who were only notable by their absence from most of the season
Ricks love interest - about to be eaten with kids
Dr Girl - about to be thrown to the zombies by evil wolf guy (unless they cop out on this again)
Is there anyone else left?
Given that pretty much anywhere that Ricks crew spends time in is devestated and destroyed , Negan should just be like:
"Whoa - didn't realise you were "those" guys - no we don't want anything to do with you - people who do - die - see ya!"
Rick's group really is the Typhoid Mary of humans. The Governor would have done much better to have immediately packed up his crew and left the state! I believe only one of them is alive now.
.
Yeah those two are pretty cool - sad they didn't get to be in the season much :(
Denise (the nurse who was held hostage by the wolf).
Likely to soon be dead.........
Tobin.
Who is he?
Spencer (Deanna's second son).
Oh yeah forgot him - hmm
Jesse, Ron and Sam Anderson (Rick's girlfriend).
Bye bye
Heath (the black supply runner).
Scott (the other black guy, and Heath's friend).
Francine (the woman who fell off the JCB at the construction site, and was saved by Abraham).
Sorry can't remember them at all!! Apart from falling off things - did they do anyting interesting?
There are still a lot more named Alexandrians left alive, its just that we see so little of them all that we forget their names quickly. They're all so forgettable.
so true
"Oh you sweet Summer child"...
Negan is going to break that trend. And by break I mean he's going to flip it over and feth it up the fething arse while shouting "Who's your fething Daddy?"
Hopefully - then him and Carol can have babies and rule the post modern world
Tobin was the leader of the construction crew gathering steel panels from the construction site for the wall. Abraham took over when Tobin went to Deanna and told her Abraham was a better leader.
Heath and Scott were the two black guys with Michonne who survived the massacre in the woods when the herd turned to Alexandria. The three of them returned to Alexandria together, shortly before Rick.
Excellent welcome back to TWD. And the wrecking crew is back together. The way they opened the episode was genius (no idea if it happened in the comic). The scene with sam and his mom was interesting and extremely well shot. It was a single note that made it feel almost surreal.
Overall happy they are back and very happy with the episode.
Hulksmash wrote: Excellent welcome back to TWD. And the wrecking crew is back together. The way they opened the episode was genius (no idea if it happened in the comic). The scene with sam and his mom was interesting and extremely well shot. It was a single note that made it feel almost surreal.
Overall happy they are back and very happy with the episode.
Me too.
When Rick brought back Carl after he was shot... did anyone notice that he was gonna take on the horde all by himself?
Was? He did for as long as it takes to stich up a gunshot wound on a kids face even when he's unconscious
Rick is the right kind of all crazy.
I did think it was a bit funny that baby whose paternity is in question got sent off with someone known for being unreliable but Carl gets hurt and Rick loses his mind.
Also, small pre-teen being eaten so graphically and big teen being chopped up was not something I expected to see depicted the way it was. I was sure they would copout on how they handled the kid deaths.
Hulksmash wrote: Excellent welcome back to TWD. And the wrecking crew is back together. The way they opened the episode was genius (no idea if it happened in the comic). The scene with sam and his mom was interesting and extremely well shot. It was a single note that made it feel almost surreal.
Overall happy they are back and very happy with the episode.
Me too.
When Rick brought back Carl after he was shot... did anyone notice that he was gonna take on the horde all by himself?
Dude... I empathized with that.
Yep, he was protecting the infirmary from the horde.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hulksmash wrote: I did think it was a bit funny that baby whose paternity is in question got sent off with someone known for being unreliable but Carl gets hurt and Rick loses his mind.
Not really. Rick very nearly had a breakdown when he watched Gabriel walk away with Judith - Jesse had to snap him out of it and reassure him. And he actually did have a breakdown when he was reunited with her outside of Terminus courtesy of Tyreese and Carol. Regardless of parternity, he clearly cares for her as much as he does for Carl.
Gabriel and Judith were fine, they weren't attacked. But Carl was shot in the head and blinded in one eye. Its not the same. If a walker had lunged at Gabriel, Rick would have panicked instantly just like he did with Carl.
Also, small pre-teen being eaten so graphically and big teen being chopped up was not something I expected to see depicted the way it was. I was sure they would copout on how they handled the kid deaths.
Yeah, glad they didn't chicken out of that. It would have undermined the whole emotional impact if they'd censored it somehow.
The paternity thing was mostly tongue in cheek. The writers and Andy Lincolns performances have shown how deeply he cares for his daughter. Even to the point of other characters needing to reassure him Judith is fine before he does something (ala Carol and Jessie on a couple of occasions). I just found it slightly amusing is all.
Also I wouldn't say he was protecting the infirmary. If anything his starting a brawl right in front of it was unlikely to keep the infirmary from being overrun after he died as it would have "woken" up more of the walkers in the area. I genuinely think he lost his mind a bit but in what turned out to be the best way.
Also the clipped together scene starting with Rick's crew and slowly incorporating first the more trusted Alexandrians and then the more passive/no names over the course of the clip was excellent. It showed the jelling of the populace in a truly excellent and I felt mostly original way and to do it so visually was awesome.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Glad they didn't chicken out of the Carl thing, like they did with Rick's hand back in season 3.
I'm pretty sure that decision was made for more practical reasons than anything.
That is what I'm referring to. Impractical or no, losing his hand was a huge milestone in Rick's character development in the comics. I can understand the reasoning behind not adapting that into the show, because they don't want to cripple and restrict their lead protagonist on a very action heavy show.
But Carl's missing eye is also a huge milestone in character development, and it would probably detract from and drastically alter his character arc going forward if they skipped it. They could have easily decided it would be too impractical and expensive to have to do prosthetics and makeup for Carl's missing eye for every scene and episode that he features in going forward. I'm glad they went through with it.
Alpharius says he hopes the show diverges from the comics even more. I don't. I like the comics. I hope they stay true to the overall theme, plot lines and events of the comics, though I do like how they're switching things around and having certain events from the comics happen to different characters. (e.g. they amputated Merle's hand instead of Rick). The show tends to be at its best when its adapting material the comics, even if they do switch things around, rather than going off on a tangent and doing their own thing. Almost the entirety of Season 2 was original, and it was widely regarded as the weakest season of the show.
I'd prefer they kept the stuff that was great in the comics, and improved or reworked the stuff that didn't work so well.
I liked how they expanded on the Governor. The comic version was a bit shallow (though the Woodbury spin off novels did flesh him out a lot more).
I liked how they switched the genders around of the Alexandria leader and his wife, turning Douglas Monroe into a woman (Deanna) with a great actress and his wife into a man (Reggie). The wife in the comics was very passive, and didn't really do much besides get killed by Pete. But the show version of the spouse (Reggie) is the engineer responsible for building Alexandrias walls, and so he had much more significance.
I did not like how they eviscerated Andrea's character. Andrea in the comics is a great character and is still living as of the latest issue, and its not entirely clear yet who will be filling her role going forward. I would say Sascha, but she seems to be too close to Abraham. I would say Carol, but she seems to be reverting back to her original character arc from the comics
Spoiler:
(she's starting to crack, and might commit suicide like in the comics).
I would say Jesse, because they were making her out to be a much stronger and better character than the comics version of Jesse (she was a weak and needy character who clung to Rick). But they've killed her just like in the comics. A little bit of a bait and switch.
Maybe they're going to merge Andrea with Michonne perhaps. Rick and Michonne are probably closer to each other now than anyone else in the group and I can see her filling Andrea's role.
Also I wouldn't say he was protecting the infirmary. If anything his starting a brawl right in front of it was unlikely to keep the infirmary from being overrun after he died as it would have "woken" up more of the walkers in the area. I genuinely think he lost his mind a bit but in what turned out to be the best way.
They were locked onto the house because they were pursuing Rick and Michonne, and the lights were on. The walkers were being woken up already.
He was in a rage yes, but I don't think he was losing his mind. He was thinking "Crap, they're attacking the infirmary. My son is in there undergoing surgery. I need to create a distraction NOW to save my son". We saw in the previous episode how easily a determined and aggressive horde can break into a house. This isn't the same as when he snapped and went on a completely unnecessary and reckless rampage through the prison after Lori died, he was thinking somewhat rationally.
But I agree. Great episode.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the clipped together scene starting with Rick's crew and slowly incorporating first the more trusted Alexandrians and then the more passive/no names over the course of the clip was excellent.
It was very a comic book-y sequence, like something you'd expect to see in 300. A little out of place for this show, but great nonetheless and a nice homage to the comics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only thing I disliked about this episode was that they killed off the leader of the Saviours patrol in the opening scene, the one who did the talking, confiscated the guns and threatened to kill Abraham and Sascha. He was funny, and I liked the actor. Would have been nice to have that actor around for a little longer.
In the comics, IIRC they let one guy live and sent him home with a message for Negan that they aren't scared of him.
Nah, there are better ways of drawing them away from the house his kid is in. He still has his gun. He lost it. Not in an uncontrolled way like we've seen before. It was very focused. But he did lose it because he wasn't thinking critically. Compare Glenn to Rick. Glenn though decisively to save his wife. He pulled the entire herd onto himself.
And before it's pointed out that he was a goner before Abraham and Sasha saved him I'd say both Glenn and Rick went into it knowing they were going to die. The difference was in how they would have succeeded had they died. Maggie would have been saved. It's highly likely based on the noise Rick was making that Carl would have been a goner and everyone in the shop too. It feels like that is part of the reason Michonne knows she has to get out there. She's still thinking critically. Just so happens people follow her out to help (didn't hurt it was the few Alexandrians who have actual experience in the "modern" world).
t's highly likely based on the noise Rick was making that Carl would have been a goner and everyone in the shop too.
No. Like I said, a big part of the herd was already locked onto the infirmary because they saw Rick and Michonne run inside, and because the lights were on. The rest of the herd would simply follow the lead of those walkers and join the attack. It only takes one walker to instigate an attack on a house. It doesn't even have to be intentional according to Morgan in season 1 - simply brushing up against a door can be mistaken by another walker as an attempt to break inside, and suddenly you have a chain reaction.
The noise Rick was creating wasn't attracting more walkers than there were already attracted to the infirmary. The damage was already done. The only chance was to get outside, create a BIG distraction and try to lead them away from the infirmary. Even if Rick wasn't able to lead them away, every walker that was attacking him is one less walker trying to break through the windows and doors of the infirmary.
Glenn and Rick were in a way both committing suicide. They were trying to create a distraction and lure zombies away to protect the people they care about, so they were essentially doing the same thing and had the same mindset. Rick was just considerably more angry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It happens the same way in the comics. Rick dashes outside and starts fighting walkers. The intention is to create a distraction to lure them away from the house and buy time for the people inside, which isn't exactly losing your mind.
That's kinda my point. He went about it poorly. He lost it. Not in a raging insanity kind of way we've seen before but in a way that shows he wasn't thinking clearly.
In the previous episode we see him discussing with Deanna how, while pulling a dude up the wall who is in danger and bullets flying around he noticed the best action for the group and dismissed it because of previous issues with Deanna's family and him not wanting to further a gap. That's a lot of analysis in the heat of the moment to prevent you from taking an opening that's best for the group.
In this case that's not the Rick we're seeing. We're seeing tunnel vision Rick and not big picture Rick. Again compare the actions of Glenn vs. Rick and tell me Rick was thinking clearly. He had a gun and he is faster than the zombies. One shot, run, one shot farther up the street, run, repeat until the herd is after you instead of the house.
Maybe losing his mind was a bit strong. He lost his ability to think clearly would have been better.
Rick makes snap decisions with solid analysis on a regular basis now. He's actually pretty cold this entire season. He's almost over controlled that way. The show writers felt it was important to point it out how fast he processes things in episode 7 when he is discussing with Deanna. That's kinda my point. HIS kid being in danger caused him to lose analytical abilities.
Did Glenn have to make any less of a snap decision with Maggie? And yet he made the correct one. Rick didn't. Due to his anger and worry getting to him more than normal.
Which is ok, remember he just saw his potential new baby momma and her sons get killed rather gruesomely. It's not a knock. He suffered repeated shocks to his system that Glenn didn't. But they both had the same amount of time to make a decision and Rick's shocks added up and he made it the wrong way.
I was kind of shocked to come on here and see everyone raving about how much they liked that episode. Most of the reviews online seemed to agree with that sentiment. I thought I was going crazy because I more or less hated the episode, but I finally ran across one reviewer that more or less sums up my overall issues with it nicely:
The big, huge problem I have is that the threat of the zombies seems to dramatically shift from 'OMG they're going to kill us' to 'we can kill hundreds of them if we just try' based solely on what is needed at a given moment.
Having our pack of zombie guts heroes find a nice quiet spot in the middle of the city where they can talk without attracting any walkers? No problem...the zombies just wander around aimlessly near them without noticing their talking, despite it not being that particularly quiet. Then all of a sudden when the zombies 'need' to kill people, they lunge out and bite the Wolf guy on the arm or tear Sam apart. But then when its time for Rick to go crazy and start killing zombies, all of a sudden its possible for a small group to take on hundreds, if not thousands of walkers at once? Its completely bat guano crazy by the standards the show has set for itself. And when Abraham and Sasha show up, they can suddenly mow down dozens of zombies in an instant right in front of Glenn without hitting him? Its just lazy. It didn't need to be blocked like that except to give another cheap scare about Glenn possibly dying.
The worst of all? Darryl setting the lake in the middle of the town on fire? Are you kidding me? I remember back when we were talking about the quarry in this thread, I suggested that they should have simply lit the walkers in the quarry on fire, and someone said that it would be too dangerous because any walkers that would escape would surely start a wildfire. And yet here we are in the MIDDLE OF THE TOWN and the zombies are being set on fire and somehow this is a miraculous cure to save everything! And when dawn arrives, nobody fighting hundreds of zombies by hand has apparently been killed, and no flaming zombies managed to set anything on fire.
I feel like more and more TWD is simply deciding what they want to happen, and then are perfectly fine and dandy with bending any and all realism and internal standards they have previously established to make that thing happen. The first half of this season I felt like they were really starting to go that direction (with Glenn's 'death' for example) and this latest episode was the absolute worst offender yet.
As the reviewer states in his article, exactly what number of zombies are supposed to be a credible threat after this episode? The next time someone gets killed by a handful of zombies (or even like the Wolf guy did in this episode) its just going to feel so cheap, because its been established now that a group of people with hand weapons should be able to kill dozens, if not hundreds of walkers without taking a single loss.
So? I think you're forgetting that this show is adapted from a comic book, and comics aren't exactly known for their realism. This episode has been the most comic book-y stylized episode in probably the entire series so far, particularly when Rick began chopping Jesse's arm and the screen flashed red with each chop, and the action sequence at the end when it began cycling through the various combatants at super speed. There were lots of elements in this episode taken directly from or inspired by the comics. Its like this entire episode was an homage to the comics, and a reminder to the viewers that it is based on a comic book. Criticizing TWD for it lack of realism is like criticizing 300.
But I do think this was a one off.
As the reviewer states in his article, exactly what number of zombies are supposed to be a credible threat after this episode?
For a very long time, they're not going to be a threat. People are going to be the main threat. The whole point of this episode was to be a turning point, the moment when Rick realizes the undead hordes can be dealt with and managed if people work together and cooperate. Its a moment that gives him hope (until a certain motherfether mercilessly crushes it ).
Theres a conflict coming soon which will be the BIGGEST survivor vs survivor conflict the show has ever seen, to the point that two entire Volumes of the comics (12 issues) were named "All Out War part 1 and 2". Zombies are going to take a back seat for a very long while, besides being weaponized and exploited by various survivor groups.
Its the plot of one of the novels about the bad things which happen when you try and set a horde on fire. Post-Governor Woodbury create a wall of fire to stop the horde created post-prison. ...The zombies walk through it. There's then a few thousand zombies walking towards Woodbury, whilst on fire...
Queue a forest fire/ half of the town being burned down before the horde's led away from the town into a swamp and they blow up.
All in all I thought it a much better episode than many this season and much better than the preceding.
Things I liked
Negan's men, and the rocket that took them out.
Carol shooting the Wolf (finally)
Blonde mom and kids was sad but good for the plot
Carl likewise
Things I didn't
the whole lake of fire bit
The Priest is still going - friend of mine watching, she kept saying "please kill him"
Fake scientist guy still useless and still going.
Fine with the whole killing loads of them - felt pretty cool and comic like.
Alpharius wrote: Zombies are always going to be a 'threat' but they are a manageable one, even in large numbers.
I think even the comic has moved to this point some time ago.
Once again, the true monsters are, of course, your fellow survivors, and what they'll do to survive.
Spoiler:
The current comic's plot is all of the civilization which has been built up over the past few years about to be steam rolled by a massive (human controlled) horde.
...All because Rick doesn't like not being in control, and just can't abide there being a group on his doorstep who don't want anything to do with him.
Regarding Rick and the current comic plotline, that's not true at all.
Spoiler:
Alexandria's patrols were being ambushed and murdered, because the Whisperers are extremely xenophobic and choose to kill outsiders on sight instead of using diplomacy first. Then their leader infiltrated Alexandria during a festival and murdered a score of citizens from 3 of the 4 settlements, including two prominent characters Ezekiel and the pregnant Rosita, and used their undead severed heads as border markers to mark out Whisperer territory.
They're a hostile group of nomads who've appeared out of the blue, ambushed patrols and murdered citizens with impunity, and set up camp with a gigantic horde of walkers on the borders of the 4 communities territory, spreading fear and unrest through the settlements. They're a direct threat and a ticking time bomb, one that Rick needs to deal with asap through pre emptive action.
Rick has to maintain control and keep a lid on social unrest and provide a sense of security to his citizens, because their network of settlements will fall apart otherwise.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So? I think you're forgetting that this show is adapted from a comic book, and comics aren't exactly known for their realism. This episode has been the most comic book-y stylized episode in probably the entire series so far, particularly when Rick began chopping Jesse's arm and the screen flashed red with each chop, and the action sequence at the end when it began cycling through the various combatants at super speed. There were lots of elements in this episode taken directly from or inspired by the comics. Its like this entire episode was an homage to the comics, and a reminder to the viewers that it is based on a comic book. Criticizing TWD for it lack of realism is like criticizing 300.
Yeah, I'm just gonna keep saying it until it sticks. It's a character-driven drama, not a tactical simulation or science textbook. All that stuff will always be secondary to the characters and the story Kirkman and Gimple want to tell. If one just can't look past it, then it's probably not the show or comic for them.
Zombies are going to take a back seat for a very long while, besides being weaponized and exploited by various survivor groups.
Yep! Honestly, this may be a getting-off point for people who just like the zombie gore. Personally, I think it'd be a shame since there's a whole lot of human conflict to come, but to each their own.
Mr Morden wrote: Fake scientist guy still useless and still going.
Fake scientist perhaps, but Eugene is genuinely smart and the show is entering a phase now in which he will have much more opportunity to shine.
And Wyrmalla, you're distorting the current events in the comic book.
Spoiler:
It's pretty clear Rick wants nothing to do with the Whisperers. He's being pushed to action by the citizenry. He DOES want to maintain control, but I think it's pretty harsh to suggest that it's only for his personal gain. What they've set up is very fragile, and he knows it.
I do think that since the time jump, the comic has been raising questions about dictatorships vs. democracies or representative government. Their fragile new civilization is going to have to cross that bridge at some point.
Alpharius wrote: Zombies are always going to be a 'threat' but they are a manageable one, even in large numbers.
I think even the comic has moved to this point some time ago.
Once again, the true monsters are, of course, your fellow survivors, and what they'll do to survive.
Yep, this was a key part of the Alexandria swarm in the comics; they figured out that Zombies aren't the real threat since any dedicated group of individuals with hand weapons can stand their ground and kill a ridiculous number of them. I'm glad they brought this over from the comics.
Fake scientist perhaps, but Eugene is genuinely smart and the show is entering a phase now in which he will have much more opportunity to shine.
Or they just kill him off with Gabrial and Morgan - I dislike them as much as I dislike Jon bloody Snow
Eugene is responsible for setting up a an ammunition FACTORY in the comics. He designs windmills, repairs long wave radios, comes up with methods for managing and diverting huge hordes of walkers, plans out defenses... You're being way too harsh on him. This is the point at which he begins to really pull his own weight.
In the last episode alone we saw him use his lock picking skills to let himself Rosita and Tara into Morgans house from the locked garage, and he finally gathered the courage to join the fight.
Eugene is quite literally the smartest guy in Washington.
Yep. As their environment changes, different skill sets will rise and fall.
Carol is facing the inverse situation to Eugene. As I've been saying for a while, she will be needed less as there's less reason to treat everyone as an enemy to be dealt with. She's filled an invaluable role as Mama Bear, but now things are changing as a community starts to be built. The question then becomes whether she has another change left in her. This is the natural course of Carol's arc, and I'm happy to see that the show seems to be addressing it.
gorgon wrote: Yep. As their environment changes, different skill sets will rise and fall.
Carol is facing the inverse situation to Eugene. As I've been saying for a while, she will be needed less as there's less reason to treat everyone as an enemy to be dealt with. She's filled an invaluable role as Mama Bear, but now things are changing as a community starts to be built. The question then becomes whether she has another change left in her. This is the natural course of Carol's arc, and I'm happy to see that the show seems to be addressing it.
Fake scientist perhaps, but Eugene is genuinely smart and the show is entering a phase now in which he will have much more opportunity to shine.
Or they just kill him off with Gabrial and Morgan - I dislike them as much as I dislike Jon bloody Snow
Eugene is responsible for setting up a an ammunition FACTORY in the comics. He designs windmills, repairs long wave radios, comes up with methods for managing and diverting huge hordes of walkers, plans out defenses... You're being way too harsh on him. This is the point at which he begins to really pull his own weight.
In the last episode alone we saw him use his lock picking skills to let himself Rosita and Tara into Morgans house from the locked garage, and he finally gathered the courage to join the fight.
Eugene is quite literally the smartest guy in Washington.
Yeha I know the comics - this aint the comics - its related but different................. Eugene can die and be replaced by another character just like others - Andrea is one the most important in the comics - tv dead.
gorgon wrote: Yep. As their environment changes, different skill sets will rise and fall.
Carol is facing the inverse situation to Eugene. As I've been saying for a while, she will be needed less as there's less reason to treat everyone as an enemy to be dealt with. She's filled an invaluable role as Mama Bear, but now things are changing as a community starts to be built. The question then becomes whether she has another change left in her. This is the natural course of Carol's arc, and I'm happy to see that the show seems to be addressing it.
Shes going to
Spoiler:
commit suicide
like in the comics, I think.
Highly possible. But it's also possible that she gets a different ending just because of the popularity of the character, AND the show character's history. Having her go out like that sends her off in kind of a defeated manner, and that might be almost inappropriate given how Carol has grown from her beginnings on the show.
I think it's also possible that...
Spoiler:
...she meets her end in the encounter with Negan in the probable season finale. I think (for a variety of reasons) that Morgan will play the role of Glenn in the famous comic scene, but I could see Carol (ironically, right?) responding in some way to Negan's actions and biting it in the process. It'd give her a defiant ending, which I think the character deserves.
Edit: It'd also help establish Negan, although that fether needs no muther-fething help to fething establish the fething power of his fething personality.
Yep. As their environment changes, different skill sets will rise and fall.
Carol is facing the inverse situation to Eugene. As I've been saying for a while, she will be needed less as there's less reason to treat everyone as an enemy to be dealt with. She's filled an invaluable role as Mama Bear, but now things are changing as a community starts to be built. The question then becomes whether she has another change left in her. This is the natural course of Carol's arc, and I'm happy to see that the show seems to be addressing it.
If as people seem to think, the Negan arc plays out in pretty much the same way than Carol will be much more useful than many of the current dead weight.
But already Negans crrew is acting differently -
Spoiler:
it was not all your stuff belongs to me - it was give me some of your stuff and i won't do horrible things to you
Carol may be the Andrea element not sniping but stealthing...........
In the comics, Sophia survives and is adopted by Glenn and Maggie and they all become a family unit. Sophia becomes Carl's best friend and a possible love interest (its hinted that she has feelings for him, but he hasn't yet reciprocated them as of the current issue).
In the show, Sophia is long dead. But Enid, whose parents are dead, seems to be getting close to Glenn. She certainly isn't close to anyone else other than Carl. Maybe Enid will end up fulfilling Sophia's role as Carl's best friend, and teenage counterpart. With Ron dead, the show lacks any teenage peers for Carl.
@Mr. Morden: I had the same thought regarding Negan's crew.
Spoiler:
Negan extorts, like organized crime. He's not a simple dictator.
Although after refreshing my memory, I found that the Saviors group that Rick first encounters in the comic also demands ALL their stuff. Perhaps this encounter was moved forward in the show timeline with different characters.
@SCE: Yeah, I've thought for a while that Enid's picking up Sophia's arc.
Actually, remember the two guys who ambushed Sascha, Abraham and Daryl and ran them off the road in Episode 6 Always Accountable? The TWD wiki credits those guys as being members of the Saviours.
So this new group of bikers aren't their first encounter with the Saviours.
I can't even finish the episode. I use my sister's xfinity account on my phone and the acct information disappeared 3/4 through. I saw the scuffle on the farm...and it cut out right there. Blah. Quiet episode so far, but some good emotional growth for a couple of the characters. Plus Jesus arrives. And damn, does he look the part! No wonder his friends call him that.
I really enjoyed the episode. It was a bit more light hearted which the show needed. Everyone felt pretty relaxed with each other (between Ricks group and the Alexandrians). Time jump was a good thing.
The look on Darryls face when Rick is singing along is brilliant. And their tiny exchanges were great.
Jesus is already a character I quite like. I hope they don't waste him (unlikely given the source material) like they seemed to have Aaron who I also really liked but who they haven't done anything with this season.
I think it was a brilliant episode actually. It did really well at portraying the sense of hope for the future and optimism that Alexandria develops after they unite to destroy the herd.
Spoiler:
Later to be mercilessly crushed by Negan.
Jesus is a little younger than I was expecting.
The one thing I missed from the episode was Abraham disposing of Jessie's reanimated corpse before Rick sees it to spare him. I get that the show did a 2 month time jump to skip over the boring bits of Rick's grieving and the rebuilding of Alexandria, but that was a nice moment that they could have put in as a flashback, or in the intro.
And I was mildly disappointed that Jesus didn't get to show off his Matrix bullet dodging skills when Rick and an entire group of people open up on him with assault rifles and he dives behind some cars.
I got to finish. Can honestly say I've been expecting that episode ending scene for a WHILE now. Maybe not the inclusion of Jesus in it, but the rest of it.
Hulksmash wrote: I really enjoyed the episode. It was a bit more light hearted which the show needed. Everyone felt pretty relaxed with each other (between Ricks group and the Alexandrians). Time jump was a good thing.
The look on Darryls face when Rick is singing along is brilliant. And their tiny exchanges were great.
Jesus is already a character I quite like. I hope they don't waste him (unlikely given the source material) like they seemed to have Aaron who I also really liked but who they haven't done anything with this season.
Reedus had a good episode. It was a super fleeting moment, but during Daryl's conversation with Denise, I chuckled out loud over those little hand motions he did in mockery of her.
And having Jesus be a foil for Daryl is PERFECT. Obviously, it's not something that happens in the books since Daryl isn't around, but I think it really fits that Daryl would be annoyed by him (at least at first). Daryl isn't obviously the biggest bada$$ in the room if Jesus is there.
It's even funnier knowing that Jesus was almost certainly fething with Daryl by continually flopping his head on his shoulder in the back seat.
See, I felt like Rick was screwing with Daryl by turning the car so that Jesus kept landing on his shoulder. Which made me chuckle since the entire episode, down to the final comment when they were leaving Jesus in the "cell" felt almost like a buddy cop movie with partners that have been together way to long.
And yeah, Reedus had an excellent episode. That exchange with Diana made me giggle a bit too.
As for Jesus, yeah, I can see Daryl having an issue at first. He's not used to people not considering him dangerous (though Negan's gang found that out the hard way). And Jesus barely recognizing him as a threat probably irked him.
"Don't make threats you can't back up"-Daryl
"Exactly"-Jesus