Eldenfirefly wrote: I want more discussion on the shooty chaos lists. I have tried to make more melee oriented CSM lists, but those have so far always fallen flat. Fodder and bubble wrap makes it really tough. And nowadays, our hard melee characters aren't even necessarily the most killy as well. One good example would be that blood angels captain. That guy wrecks face, and the most scary thing is, after he dies, they can use one more strategem to make him strike back one last time in melee. He actually has a very small profile (in terms of area taken up), and he has a jump pack so its not hard for him to fly over the fodder to get to where he wants. And being a character, he benefits from character rules as well if he is attacking along with his other death company buddies.
I take six Missile wielding Chaos Marine uniits and 2 Havoc units plus a defiler. Defiler is just there because it looks great (to me) and I really like having a centerpiece. So thats my gunline along with the three Chaos Lords, one of which uses the smite bullets (as I like to call them). three terminator dakka units to drop in and keep people pinned in are also part of it and then three Spawn to run around and snake objectives or defend the gunline as they are able.
The missiles have proven to be so good for the Chaos build I use. Its a Brigade (obviously) and it looks pretty darn pedestrian but it does well nonetheless. It's not flashy or got a big "loadout" but that leaves me free to use the Strategems without needing to "store them up" for some big plan. Overall, its just a fundamental list but it works.
MrPieChee wrote: I've not seen much mention of spawns in 8th chaos - what's the consensus on them? Is the very random nature of their damage too difficult to rely on?
If you want to fill out a CSM Brigade or Outriders, they're a cheap 4W that can hide and block DS etc
Not really fast or reliable enough to take as a Rushdown horde, they're more like guard dogs than knights
MrPieChee wrote: I've not seen much mention of spawns in 8th chaos - what's the consensus on them? Is the very random nature of their damage too difficult to rely on?
I would swear by Spawn in 7ty edition, using the to escort Chaos Lords into battle.
This edition they're still pretty good, but slower, which reduces their escort ability, and compared to a Plague Drone for the 1 pt difference, makes them a harder sell.
But, I have about 12 of them still so they make it into some themed lists. Pre-set Deepstrike, they were good to deny a deployment zone. All the mutations are pretty useful and their ap-2 2 damage is really good.
My Spawn usually do well. I typically run them anywhere from 1-3 strong.
They are really cheap, t5 makes them somewhat resilient to most small arms, and if your enemy commits heavy weapons to them you are laughing. Don't expect anything from them and just use them as a nagging thorn in your opponents head. They are nothing if not disposable.
If I have the points I like to make them 3 strong. That's when they really start worrying an opponent as two spawn making contact is pretty dangerous. You want your spawn to be too dangerous to ignore but not worth commitng heavy guns to
I've always been pretty happy with how my unit of 5 spawn performs. They're a very solid "beef" unit that sits right in the middle of the road. They're not too expensive, they're slightly above-normal speed and toughness, but have enough wounds to feel durable. Their attacks are unreliable, but still hit hard enough to tear up a lot of targets.
I think they're best targets are elite units, with good saves and multiple wounds (TEQs), where their AP and damage will really earn their points back. Sometimes they have trouble clearing chaff, because their random attacks can really work against you, and WS 4+ is a bitch when you need to land lots of hits.
I’m planning out what my World Eaters contingent will look like
So far I’ve got this Brigade drafted down
Spoiler:
The biker Lord hangs out with the predators and scarecrows deep strikers and the like
Th juggerlord runs up with the Rhinos
The Possessed ride in the mole machine
The DA and EC either ride in the Rhinos or KAC
Warp Talons and Contemptor are kind of wild cards to react to enemy deployment
I’m assuming Angry Ron will be joining them during the building of the army. I’d probably take an extra DA & EC and field a Supreme Command with him or else go HA soup with my Word Bearers Spartan and some Knight type thing
Alternatively, tempted to give this lot a Typhon as it looks so cool in WE (pre heresy) colours, and a Kytan or LoS
Juggerlord - axe of blind rage, combi-melta
Terminator Lord - chainfist, combi-melta, hatred incarnate, talisman
Dark Apostle - bolt pistol, power maul
Exalted Champion - whatever
Chaos Lord on Bike - combi-bolter, power axe, brass collar
What's the plan for the termite? Those mole machines sure are cool, but it would be difficult to make them work considering the earliest their payload can get amongst it is turn 3.
But like I said, they are very cool. Can something be cool enough to reach auto-include status?
Gonna put the Possessed in the Termite. A mid game wildcard. Mostly play Maelstrom; I find something reactive with punch and staying power is useful around that point
Sooooooo I got a Defiler in mint condition (primed with some gold edging, hes just missing his flag topper) for $20. A steal when you look at the price of the model. Dudes armed with a Havoc Launcher and Autocannon, not the best, but it'll do. I know Defilers are seen as less optimal, but hell, for $20.... how would ya'll use em?
EDIT: Instead of just being snarky, basic consensus is rip off his havoc launcher, paste on a spare dread scourge or something, and use him as a big 169 point distraction. He is big and looks scary, he hits stuff hard in close combat, and if you really need him to shoot you have strategems to give him a passable phase (re-roll hits and wounds, ignore move and shoot penalty, and possibly # of battle cannon shots). He is good at taking fire off more valuable targets like Rhinos with troops in them, or your own Dreads / Predators with heavy weapons and less durability. If he dies, whatever.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So which legion trait works best for Raptors? I haven't painted mine yet, so I'm leaning towards Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or Night Lords. I use one unit with plasma, one unit melta, one unit plasma pistols. Iron Warriors trait does come in handy since I play against gun line Marines fairly often, AL is always good for durability and Forward Operative melta guns, and Night Lords are just my favorite Legion.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So which legion trait works best for Raptors? I haven't painted mine yet, so I'm leaning towards Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or Night Lords. I use one unit with plasma, one unit melta, one unit plasma pistols. Iron Warriors trait does come in handy since I play against gun line Marines fairly often, AL is always good for durability and Forward Operative melta guns, and Night Lords are just my favorite Legion.
Nurgle Night Lords Raptors. HILARIOUS LD debuffs.
And then take some Furies for some more.. seems fun
He’s stompy in cc, but everyone knows that and usually shoots him off the first couple turns, usually dedicating 4 times the points in firepower than his worth and ignoring my Dreads and Artillery
I use my DG defiler pretty much mainly for CC. The strat for auto blow up in the DG codex can be hilarious.
One trick i find is to advance it first turn and pop smoke esp with miasma for a -2 to hit that can really take the edge off that first volley of shots.
Usually tag team it with my flying prince to cast said power and be a dual threat plus the defiler is so big it can normally make sure the prince is not the closest model.
A decent shooty army will take your defiler out if they want to but hey... means other stuff isnt dead.
Hmm. I’ve got a Defiler kit unbuilt. Might have to give it a go. I’ve already got three PBC for my DG Brigade. Planning on having three Predators in my WE Brigade. Daemonic stuff fits in nicely with my WB main collection.
I can see arguments to have it, and two Maulers, as my WE Heavies. Bring in a Skullmaster and they’re all re-rolling charges.
However... the Predators fill a gap in the WEs. Got very little gunnery in my plans, other than them. Themeatically, they’d fit well with the multiple Rhinos in that collection. The Daemon engines don’t benefit from Legion traits, either... which makes the opportunity loss minimal when they’re Word Bearers, aaaand also means that with magnetised runes or such I can give them charge re-rolling, or charge after advance, or -2 to be hit plus Epidemius stoking, or a very weak dodge.
I dunno how people feel about allying renegades and heretics but I love the renegade commander.
He’s cheap and unbelievably non threatening. Great for just sprinting on an objective because no one will bother killing him if they have bigger and more immediate issues that need to be handled.
And picking up a Spearhead of IG tanks or a vanguard of snipers is far from the worst thing you can buy imo
The vanguard with the commander is under 150 points
Demon engines do not receive legion traits??? So my Blood Slaughterer shouldn't be getting +1A on the charge?! :(
Brutes, bikers and infantry. Nobody else.
Oh gak, not even my Demon Prince? Man have I been playing wrong, good thing I switched him over to the Demons' book. So, luckily it's only the Blood Slaughterer and he's already got plenty of attacks, so that's fine.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. I’ve got a Defiler kit unbuilt. Might have to give it a go. I’ve already got three PBC for my DG Brigade. Planning on having three Predators in my WE Brigade. Daemonic stuff fits in nicely with my WB main collection.
I can see arguments to have it, and two Maulers, as my WE Heavies. Bring in a Skullmaster and they’re all re-rolling charges.
However... the Predators fill a gap in the WEs. Got very little gunnery in my plans, other than them. Themeatically, they’d fit well with the multiple Rhinos in that collection. The Daemon engines don’t benefit from Legion traits, either... which makes the opportunity loss minimal when they’re Word Bearers, aaaand also means that with magnetised runes or such I can give them charge re-rolling, or charge after advance, or -2 to be hit plus Epidemius stoking, or a very weak dodge.
Big fan of 3 Predators but I've only used them with Black Legion. Would take them over Daemon Engines any day.
Would love to see whatever WE list you are working on, thinking they are going to do well in the meta once players get past their obsession with gunlines.
This whole speed vs durability issue is a really interesting balancing act. There's a need to move fast and strike hard, but also to have a second wave capable of doing some damage. Sometimes it's hard to see past Berzerkers to lay out a full army.
I broke out my Rhino Rush army from 5th edition to think through what an 8th edition WE army should look like. So far, I've got a set of fast strike units consisting of 3 x 3 Bikers and a Heldrake for early harassment, followed by a rush with a DP, 3 Rhinos and Kharn + 29 Berzerkers. Giving myself a little AV with combi-plasma on the Rhinos, but I haven't settled on what to do past that.
While I want to use Laspreds... they are no where near as efficient without rerolls from Abaddon. I would not want them going up against Alaitoc, Raven Guard or Alpha Legion. I have 3 Scorpius Whirlwinds and 3 Decimators, which might be better options due to volume of fire and ability to dish out mortal wounds. Maybe with a Chaos Lord for rerolling 1's.
While I want to use Obliterators... I'm thinking it's going to be hard to use them optimally. I would have to clear out some chaff to give them a good landing zone, and that might not be what this list is designed for. I'm thinking a Bloodletter Bomb might be the better answer, for flooding sections of the board where my Berzerkers haven't reached.
But there's still a lot of AV missing. If Spartans were 50 points less, I would be looking at that and getting rid of Rhinos.
Change the first sentence of rules text to read:
‘If your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince,
Infantry, Bikers and Helbrute units in Chaos Space
Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every
unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion.’
Let's say I have two berzerker units. One is already in my Rhino. the other one is coming up behind my Rhino.
Within the same turn, can I
1) Disembark my existing squad of berzerkers inside my Rhino to get that 3 inch, then move off with it, charge something.
2) The second unit of berzerks behind my Rhino move within 3 inches of my Rhino and embarks in it.
3) The Rhino then moves off with the second unit of Berzerkers embarked in it.
Yes, and furthermore if you then fire both barrels on your rhino’s optional Combi-plasma, and it blows up the rhino, you get to place the squad inside on the table with an additional 3”
Abuse the hell out of this before they edit it so the plasma causes 1MW, or units that come out of blown up vehicles can’t shoot or charge in the same turn
I have a spare 135 pts in myist and decided to drop some Warp Talons in. But these guys really needed base 2 attacks or something... They seem to fit best in a World Eaters list, but I'm willing to bet if and when World Eaters get a book, the Warp talons will be missing...
I would LOVE base 2 warp talons. And the option for icons. *dreams of running jugger-herald with 8 talons blendering all the guardsmen*
Kharneth give autocannon havocs a go. Cheap and puts out a good amount of firepower. I've been running 2 squads with my World Eaters for a while now and they've been doing just fine. I run the champ with a combi-bolter for a few plinking shots on top of that.
StarHunter25 wrote: I would LOVE base 2 warp talons. And the option for icons. *dreams of running jugger-herald with 8 talons blendering all the guardsmen*
Kharneth give autocannon havocs a go. Cheap and puts out a good amount of firepower. I've been running 2 squads with my World Eaters for a while now and they've been doing just fine. I run the champ with a combi-bolter for a few plinking shots on top of that.
125? Ugh, that's exactly how many spare points I have for my 1500pt list. I've tried Obliterators and they were too expensive for too little. I switched to Predator cuz all I was shooting were tanks and it's 5pts cheaper for more punch (plus, Oblits don't exist in Khorne Daemonkin.... dunno why). But the Predator let me down!
Maybe I'll try 5 havocs. I used them before (with the Pred) and they were lackluster, but that was only once.
But if I take them, Khorne will be disappointed with me... aaaand I don't have the models.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I have a spare 135 pts in myist and decided to drop some Warp Talons in. But these guys really needed base 2 attacks or something... They seem to fit best in a World Eaters list, but I'm willing to bet if and when World Eaters get a book, the Warp talons will be missing...
I'm hoping for some kind of special Khornate jump pack unit. Red Butchers are more likely, of course.
StarHunter25 wrote: I would LOVE base 2 warp talons. And the option for icons. *dreams of running jugger-herald with 8 talons blendering all the guardsmen*
Kharneth give autocannon havocs a go. Cheap and puts out a good amount of firepower. I've been running 2 squads with my World Eaters for a while now and they've been doing just fine. I run the champ with a combi-bolter for a few plinking shots on top of that.
FWIW if the Herald is from a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment, it’ll have an aura that does the same thing an IoW does, for free. Agreed, they were perfectly good when they could Warptime on arrival for a deep insertion ploy, but without that they’re just expensive Raptors that don’t have Melta or plasma.
Second autocannon Havocs, really useful and versatile unit
Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?
What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can't think of World Eaters as punching everything all the time unfortunately.
Says you!
Every time I take guns I lose and every time I take no guns I win... I keep trying to make these fire support units work, but I keep shooting myself in the foot.
To be fair, I don't actually play World Eaters, they're Khorne Demonkin, but I call them World Eaters because I see them as the main force and the demon detachment as an auxiliary force attached to the main force.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can't think of World Eaters as punching everything all the time unfortunately.
Every time I take guns I lose and every time I take no guns I win... I keep trying to make these fire support units work, but I keep shooting myself in the foot.
Id suggest trying to shoot the enemy. One's feet are a tempting target for anti-tank, I'll admit, but I'd try to only do this when it is tactically advantageous.
If really big axes/claws and brute strength are working as anti-tank, stick with that! A bloodthirster is way more fun than its points worth of autocannon/lascannon havovs. Especially if your not gunning for top tourney tables.
Kharneth wrote: Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?
What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.
Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You can't think of World Eaters as punching everything all the time unfortunately.
Says you!
Every time I take guns I lose and every time I take no guns I win... I keep trying to make these fire support units work, but I keep shooting myself in the foot.
To be fair, I don't actually play World Eaters, they're Khorne Demonkin, but I call them World Eaters because I see them as the main force and the demon detachment as an auxiliary force attached to the main force.
Respect. So if I was going for as much Khorne as possible, I’d do;
Daemons Batallion
Khorne Daemon Prince, Skullreaver
Nurgle Daemon Prince
Kharneth wrote: Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?
What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.
Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.
The Contemptor Dreadnought with 2 close combat weapons with underslung soulburners might be a goer; D3 shots each with each hit causing a mortal wound? Or a Leviathan Dreadnought with siege claws with underslung meltas and hellflamers would be fun and fluffy in that they bring the BURN in KILL MAIM BURN?
Kharneth wrote: Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?
What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.
Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.
Maulerfiend, Defiler, and Soul Grinder... so you named three. Everything else you listed just begs the question "Did you read?..."
Maulerfiends are ugly, so so ugly. I wonder if they're any good. They were mediocre last time I used them. Defiler is s***. Too few attacks with too lousy hit chances. Too many things squeezed into a model. I don't need non-assault guns because then I can't advance and this thing is slooooow. I charge on turn 2. What is the defiler supposed to do? Charge turn 4? No thanks. Soul Grinder might be better, idk.
I will look into those Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but... how will I get them into combat? I'm guessing that they're slow like other Dreadnoughts. Perhaps I could put one in a dreadclaw? That's a turn 3 charge? Shooting on turn 2? That might work, but it also my bog my down with a shooting phase! lol. Lemme look My whole army moves 12" minimum, adding a footslogger just feels like poor saturation.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well yeah Maulerfiends are ugly. They're not meant to be pretty.
They aren't even good ugly, like Nurgle.
They're not grotesque, or scary, or anything redeeming. They're just unattractive models. They look like oversized metal puppies. I did look at them again. 150 points for 10 attacks is not, too shabby... but I just can't take a WS 4+ unit, man. I have skilled combatants! What am I, an Ork? Naw, my Blood Slaughterer is a demon engine, too, but you don't see it running around with WS 4+.
The contemptor dreadnought with soulburners is amazing, but it's so expensive! Even with just the melee weapons, I don't know if it's worth 184 points for 6 attacks :/
I think you're poo-pooing a lot of very legitimate options, especially when you're already handicapping yourself with no shooting.
Defilers are a pretty good workhorse brawler. With heavybolters and scourge, they put out a lot of lethal attacks (Str 16 fists?? Not much else can crack landraiders on 2's) and they're cheap for how hardy they are. WS4 can easily be mitigated with Daemonforge or an Apostle (which you should absolutely have if you're going pure melee). They also have smoke launchers, which lets them advance on turn 1 and start pulling off turn 2 or 3 charges. Aside from like, bikes, they're not really any slower than anything else you can field.
They're also real bullet sponges and will suck up damage like nothing else.
The thing that makes Contemptors shine is their AP-4 D4 chainfists, which will obliterate anything they touch. 6 attacks might not sound like much, but don't forget they're WS2 (and again, you should have an apostle or prince or lord nearby), which gives them a very real damage output of 24 wounds in one round.
Maulers are unfortunately sort of in the middle ground as far as combat-walkers go. They don't hit as hard as others, or as durable or cheap or fast. Bloodslaughterers are a pretty hard contender for their role.
Also, regular helbrutes can go a long way. They're cheap and punch real hard. Think of them as the "infantry" of chaos assault walkers.
The way you get all these things across the table is by having a lot of target saturation. You don't have just a contemptor or just a defiler. You have a mix of 4 or 5 barreling down the table, along with rhinos full of berserkers, all following up behind fast moving bikes or heldrake that harass as first wave.
McGibs wrote: I think you're poo-pooing a lot of very legitimate options, especially when you're already handicapping yourself with no shooting.
Defilers are a pretty good workhorse brawler. With heavybolters and scourge, they put out a lot of lethal attacks (Str 16 fists?? Not much else can crack landraiders on 2's) and they're cheap for how hardy they are. WS4 can easily be mitigated with Daemonforge or an Apostle (which you should absolutely have if you're going pure melee). They also have smoke launchers, which lets them advance on turn 1 and start pulling off turn 2 or 3 charges. Aside from like, bikes, they're not really any slower than anything else you can field.
They're also real bullet sponges and will suck up damage like nothing else.
The thing that makes Contemptors shine is their AP-4 D4 chainfists, which will obliterate anything they touch. 6 attacks might not sound like much, but don't forget they're WS2 (and again, you should have an apostle or prince or lord nearby), which gives them a very real damage output of 24 wounds in one round.
Maulers are unfortunately sort of in the middle ground as far as combat-walkers go. They don't hit as hard as others, or as durable or cheap or fast. Bloodslaughterers are a pretty hard contender for their role.
Also, regular helbrutes can go a long way. They're cheap and punch real hard. Think of them as the "infantry" of chaos assault walkers.
The way you get all these things across the table is by having a lot of target saturation. You don't have just a contemptor or just a defiler. You have a mix of 4 or 5 barreling down the table, along with rhinos full of berserkers, all following up behind fast moving bikes or heldrake that harass as first wave.
I only poo-pooed the shooting units and the defiler. I poo-pooed the maulerfiend mostly due to the model, but if I could find an alternative miniature to field I might be down for it. Though, I think the Blood Slaughterer is the perfect substitute as it can do pretty much the same thing (but better for a bit more points) and is a uniquely Khorne unit. Yes, I have a Dark Apostle, but it is surrounded by 24 berzerkers and my enemies aren't always crowding a single location. I don't feel like I can rely on the Defiler to get rerollable hits, but it's certainly possible. 4 S16 attacks and 3 S12 attacks with high damage. Why heavy bolters? My Bloodthirster cracks landraiders easily, but is like twice the points. Though it can get there a lot faster.
You say that the Defiler is not that much slower, but it is... I have nothing that moves less than 12" except the Slaughterer, but it gets 6" advance which more than makes up for it. I do see how it works as a damage sponge, it's very cheap for 14 t7 wounds with a 3+/5++.
Contemptor is really looking like a fun addition... I'm confused about the points, though, the chainfists go down in price when I take two of them??? I could absolutely spend 162 points on a Contemptor with 6 attacks.
I understand target saturation, but I don't get across the board by saturating my army with slow pokes! I have 3 rhinos, a demon prince, a bloodthirster, flesh hounds, a blood slaughterer, and a deep striking unit of bloodletters. Trying to replace the flesh hounds with another baddy. I have saturation in addition to extremely fast moving units. The Contemptor has 9" and the Defiler 8". Both are roughly the same points, but the Defiler is much hardier. I wonder if he'd take priority over the Bloodthirster, though. A contemptor with soulburners would be fantastic, but neither version nor the Defiler can be squeezed into my list unless I turn my demon battalion into a patrol and lose 5 CP.
It might sound like I'm being difficult, but that's just because I've heard a lot of these ideas before and they just don't fit enough. I don't consider myself handicapping my force. I bought a predator and put lascannons on it. I did this after using my obliterators. I've tried autocannon havocs. None of this firepower is doing anything and by turn 2 I have most of the enemy force in melee combat and my shooters sit there with their thumbs up their a**es. My predator sounded great on paper, but it has been nothing but a point sink in every game I've played with it, which in fairness is only two games lol.
defiler is crap... that explain why no top competitive lists ever play it, 4+ to hit is crap if you must invest apostole and/or stratagems to make it decent , is clearly is overcosted, then maybe if you like the model that's another story.
I never got why daemon engines have such terrible weapon skill when the average lesser daemon has superior weapon skill to a space marine. (Back in 5th > 7th) and equal weapon skill in 8th
Kharneth wrote: Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?
What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.
Predators, Maulerfiends, Defilers, Vindicators, Havocs with anything other than Heavy Bolters, Land Raiders, allied Soul Grinders, the list goes on.
Maulerfiend, Defiler, and Soul Grinder... so you named three. Everything else you listed just begs the question "Did you read?..."
Maulerfiends are ugly, so so ugly. I wonder if they're any good. They were mediocre last time I used them. Defiler is s***. Too few attacks with too lousy hit chances. Too many things squeezed into a model. I don't need non-assault guns because then I can't advance and this thing is slooooow. I charge on turn 2. What is the defiler supposed to do? Charge turn 4? No thanks. Soul Grinder might be better, idk.
I will look into those Contemptor Dreadnoughts, but... how will I get them into combat? I'm guessing that they're slow like other Dreadnoughts. Perhaps I could put one in a dreadclaw? That's a turn 3 charge? Shooting on turn 2? That might work, but it also my bog my down with a shooting phase! lol. Lemme look My whole army moves 12" minimum, adding a footslogger just feels like poor saturation.
Sorry, I just saw "anti-tank" and didn't realize you were only looking for MELEE anti-tank. In which case I could add the Decimator (it has fists, right?) or the Lord of Skulls, unless you consider it a monster.
Decimator has the DAEMON faction keyword, so re-right los charges near Heralds and the like. Definitely high on my WB-DG-Nurgle Daemonkin priorities.
Been looking at Deredeo for DG. HELBRUTE means it gets Legion trait of move and shoot at full BS, right? Hellfire Veil looks interesting. Giving a Poxwalker horde a 5++ could really ruin someone’s day.
Decimators do not have daemon faction keyword. Annoyingly, nothing in the imperial armour index has the daemon faction keyword, not even the daemons.
Helfire veil was also faqd to only protect units -wholy- within 6", so it's not that hot anymore.
McGibs wrote: Decimators do not have daemon faction keyword. Annoyingly, nothing in the imperial armour index has the daemon faction keyword, not even the daemons.
Helfire veil was also faqd to only protect units -wholy- within 6", so it's not that hot anymore.
The faction keyword has been FAQed for the imperal armour index - so this isn't correct. Well the decimator still doesn't but there are daemons in the book that have the faction keyword
Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?
Kharneth wrote: Y'all got some other advice, preferably with about 47" less range?
What kind of anti-tank do World Eaters have outside of monsters (Bloodthirster and Demon Prince) and Power Fists? I have no luck with meltaguns, but I certainly could take a 5-man raptor squad with 2 meltas.
You know, Bikers might fit the bill! they are fast, swing chain swords from their bike, and while they have a lot of firepower, its all best at point blank range. Rapid Fire and Charge with a reroll to get in from the Icon, and world eaters for +1 attack. They won't be your most devestating assault unit, but they are fast enough to serve as a vanguard to attempt multi charges, force your enemy to disengage, and give your slower choppers a chance to catch up a bit more.
They are a good anti tank unit because they can load up on 2 melta guns and a combi melta. Compared to Raptors, Bikers are faster, Bikers are more durable. Raptors tend to struggle to use Melta effectively because they cannot drop into the 6 inch bubble Melta is most effective in. They also tend to lack the durability to take enemy punishment and are very easy to wipe out. Bikers in comparison are faster than Raptors and can leverage their better durability to get into combat and melt faces. Don't underestimate the Bolters against vehicles either. With Veterans of the Long War those 3 Melta Shots will be wounding on a 2, and their unholy number of Bolter Shots will all be wounding on a 4.
Whats not to love about Bikers? They are fast, they can support zerkers with close range shooting, and charge in themselves!
Thenord wrote: Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?
I have not used my Kytan, yet, but I think he's gunna be great fun! I feel like it'll be a 500 point damage that won't reach combat, but we'll see. A Ravager and Bloodthirster would be scary! I like to give mine Armor of Scorn for the 4+ invul and the deny the witch and with those hounds you'll have more than enough denies. Unless you infiltrate with Alpha Legion, rhinos are the best way to go. The rhino is roughly 4 Khorne Berzerkers (in terms of price), but it has 10 wounds and t7 so it'll last way longer than 4 zerkers and it moves twice as fast. If you footslog units of berzerkers with a bloodthirster and ravager, they might survive with few shots aimed at them, but once they get close they'll be targeted for sure. My berzerkers often die in a single shooting phase after being left in the open after charging a unit. Alternatively, you could use Forge World miniatures...
The mole machine or the deep strike claw can both work, but now you're coming from reserves and getting a charge on turn 3 at the earliest and you're limited. Sometimes you might want to deep strike with the Bloodthirster and, depending on how many berzerkers you take, you might have too many in reserves or too few on board. I've wanted to grab a Spartan Land Raider to transfer 3x8 Berzerkers with a character, but that's still more points than 3 rhinos, though it comes with good firepower.
@akaean
I might give bikes another try, my friend has plenty to use. The first and only time I used them they disappointed me greatly. I charged some Ad Mech walkers that look like Sentinels and Dreadnoughts had a baby that grew twice their size. They were pretty pitiful, but they were also fighting something that they shouldn't have been fighting.
The biggest thing that turns me off from bikers is that they're not khorne berzerkers. They do not have 2 base attacks or strength 5, not to mention they will only be fighting once in the fight phase. They cannot take chainaxes, either, so their strength 4 is going to stay strength 4 and then they'll get 2 attacks total with no AP. They are durable, that's for sure. The only way they will be useful is if I charge them to assist another melee unit, but my melee units are too successful in combat, nothing needs the help of 2 attacks at 25 points each.
I really want bikers to work because I've always wanted to use bikers, but they're just too weak to fit in with everything else.
I might give bikes another try, my friend has plenty to use. The first and only time I used them they disappointed me greatly. I charged some Ad Mech walkers that look like Sentinels and Dreadnoughts had a baby that grew twice their size. They were pretty pitiful, but they were also fighting something that they shouldn't have been fighting.
The biggest thing that turns me off from bikers is that they're not khorne berzerkers. They do not have 2 base attacks or strength 5, not to mention they will only be fighting once in the fight phase. They cannot take chainaxes, either, so their strength 4 is going to stay strength 4 and then they'll get 2 attacks total with no AP. They are durable, that's for sure. The only way they will be useful is if I charge them to assist another melee unit, but my melee units are too successful in combat, nothing needs the help of 2 attacks at 25 points each.
I really want bikers to work because I've always wanted to use bikers, but they're just too weak to fit in with everything else.
You need to change the way you frame bikers if you want to get something out of them. Unlike Khorne Berzerks they are not good front line melee generalist troops. But seriously, what you are paying for when you take Bikers are 4 Bolter Shots per Bike at 12 inches + whatever damage the special weapons do. They are a point blank shooting shock troop whose goal is to make life easier for your Berserkers. Whether that is putting melta guns into an annoying tank, softening up a horde with a bucket of bolter fire, or charging a fire support unit your Zerkers can't reach to prevent additional shooting on enemy turn.
Bikers are okay in melee, but mainly as a tarpit and disruption unit not as a killer, and they definitely aren't capable of tackling a walker in close combat. They are a bully unit who are fast enough to reach soft enemy targets and tie them up to prevent them from shooting on enemy phase. If your Zerkers are a hammer that shatters your enemy with overwhelming force, the Bikers are the scalpel which cuts your enemy's tendon- preventing them from escaping the hammer fall.
Thenord wrote: Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?
I might give bikes another try, my friend has plenty to use. The first and only time I used them they disappointed me greatly. I charged some Ad Mech walkers that look like Sentinels and Dreadnoughts had a baby that grew twice their size. They were pretty pitiful, but they were also fighting something that they shouldn't have been fighting.
The biggest thing that turns me off from bikers is that they're not khorne berzerkers. They do not have 2 base attacks or strength 5, not to mention they will only be fighting once in the fight phase. They cannot take chainaxes, either, so their strength 4 is going to stay strength 4 and then they'll get 2 attacks total with no AP. They are durable, that's for sure. The only way they will be useful is if I charge them to assist another melee unit, but my melee units are too successful in combat, nothing needs the help of 2 attacks at 25 points each.
I really want bikers to work because I've always wanted to use bikers, but they're just too weak to fit in with everything else.
You need to change the way you frame bikers if you want to get something out of them. Unlike Khorne Berzerks they are not good front line melee generalist troops. But seriously, what you are paying for when you take Bikers are 4 Bolter Shots per Bike at 12 inches + whatever damage the special weapons do. They are a point blank shooting shock troop whose goal is to make life easier for your Berserkers. Whether that is putting melta guns into an annoying tank, softening up a horde with a bucket of bolter fire, or charging a fire support unit your Zerkers can't reach to prevent additional shooting on enemy turn.
Bikers are okay in melee, but mainly as a tarpit and disruption unit not as a killer, and they definitely aren't capable of tackling a walker in close combat. They are a bully unit who are fast enough to reach soft enemy targets and tie them up to prevent them from shooting on enemy phase. If your Zerkers are a hammer that shatters your enemy with overwhelming force, the Bikers are the scalpel which cuts your enemy's tendon- preventing them from escaping the hammer fall.
I could take 3 Bikers w/ x2 Meltas and a combi-melta for 128 points, instead of the x2 fist Dreadnought for 122 points. That would be 3 melta shots and 14 bolter shots. Their first round of shooting won't be within 6" and I doubt they'll actually destroy a vehicle. They'll be 12" away from their target for a turn and on turn 2 they will get within 6" and destroy their target for sure. Once they get stuck in melee they'll be done shooting until I save them by using another of my units. At best, they'll pop something strong on my enemy team, like a Hammerhead, Leman Russ, or Carnifex, or they'll kill a single transport for my berzerkers. I think by turn 3 they'll be stuck in with something. Plus, now we're talking about a shooting unit that seconds as a tarpit. If it kills vehicles, it'll be a lot sooner than the dreadnought, that's for sure.
Thenord wrote: Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?
yes that's the best setup i found, re roll to hit re roll to wound and D10 for battle shock, usually i give the exalted the axe of blind fury but i play it in Al detachment
Thenord wrote: Could anyone give me some advice for what to bring in a "pure" World eaters army. I would like to add a Kytan (awesome model!) And maybe a vanguard detachment of a insensate rage thirster and 3 units og blood hounds. Is zerkers and rhinos the only way to go?
I have not used my Kytan, yet, but I think he's gunna be great fun! I feel like it'll be a 500 point damage that won't reach combat, but we'll see. A Ravager and Bloodthirster would be scary! I like to give mine Armor of Scorn for the 4+ invul and the deny the witch and with those hounds you'll have more than enough denies. Unless you infiltrate with Alpha Legion, rhinos are the best way to go. The rhino is roughly 4 Khorne Berzerkers (in terms of price), but it has 10 wounds and t7 so it'll last way longer than 4 zerkers and it moves twice as fast. If you footslog units of berzerkers with a bloodthirster and ravager, they might survive with few shots aimed at them, but once they get close they'll be targeted for sure. My berzerkers often die in a single shooting phase after being left in the open after charging a unit. Alternatively, you could use Forge World miniatures...
The mole machine or the deep strike claw can both work, but now you're coming from reserves and getting a charge on turn 3 at the earliest and you're limited. Sometimes you might want to deep strike with the Bloodthirster and, depending on how many berzerkers you take, you might have too many in reserves or too few on board. I've wanted to grab a Spartan Land Raider to transfer 3x8 Berzerkers with a character, but that's still more points than 3 rhinos, though it comes with good firepower.
@luke1705Made in us
Thanks guys! Excatly what I needed.
How do World eaters fare in terms of meta? The club I play in isn't super competitive, but there is a fair share of eldar, harlequins, AM and necrons..
I want to make a 1250 pt night lord unmarked army without magic. And it seems there are not that many options to choose from other than msu. Lords seem decent, mellee helbrutes with terror tactic look fun but what else? Marines in rhinos? Raptors? Bikers? None of these seem too effective. Maybe termues or obliterators? With -1 to hit strategem thwy can be more durable. But they need slaanesh mark.
koooaei wrote: I want to make a 1250 pt night lord unmarked army without magic. And it seems there are not that many options to choose from other than msu. Lords seem decent, mellee helbrutes with terror tactic look fun but what else? Marines in rhinos? Raptors? Bikers? None of these seem too effective. Maybe termues or obliterators? With -1 to hit strategem thwy can be more durable. But they need slaanesh mark.
MSU Chosen w/ combi-bolters and chainswords riding in rhinos, bikers and raptors, and a contemptor w/ butcher canno, supported by biker and jump pack lords is what I'm looking at (or I will be once I can justify the spend on FW). Cultists to round out a battalion, and maybe a squad of Havocs for long range anti-tank. Im thinking of having -5ld bubbles running around; I will be using MoN and IoD on the raptors though. Butcher cannon makes that -7ld for one unit, meaning minimal casualties will most likely melt it.
Won't be great against Tyranids and maybe Orks (though they always have smaller units and the big blogs aren't very flexible) but I'm hoping the combi-bolters dakka and maneuverability will be enough to carry the day in those cases; against others I'm hoping to melt units. Should be possible in my semi-competative local meta.
blackmage wrote: alreadu have exalted, drop Karn and use a dark apostole cost 90 pts less
You're right, I wrote the wrong one.
Exalted Champion
Dark Apostle
<10 Berzerkers in a Rhino
<10 Berzerkers in a Rhino
<=10 Berzerkers in a Rhino
Yeah, if you have berserkers, dark apostle and exalted champion are the best with them. You don't need Kharn to go with them, because you have more than enough weight of attacks, and those two gives all the buffs you could want for close combat. Kharn's buff is actually dangerous because he might kill someone if he rolls a 1. Having said that, I find Kharn interesting more if you want to buff the shooty elements in your world eaters army.
Say you take 3 predators and you put Kharn with them. Now you suddenly have 3 predators who can reroll their to hit rolls. Kharn himself can then provide the counter charging threat. While it looks like a waste of points, consider that people who run Abbadon do the exact same thing, place him as the centre in a shooty black legion army for his reroll to hit buff. And Kharn is much cheaper than Abbadon. So, in this case, Kharn serves as a cheap Abaddon equivalent for the shooty parts of your Khorne army. While I understand that not all world eaters armies have much shooting, but if you have a core shooting element, then Kharn provides that shooting element with a not inconsiderable buff that may actually make it a serious threat. I mean, 3 predator tanks with reroll to hit is nothing to scoff at.
koooaei wrote: Raptors? Bikers? None of these seem too effective.
Raptors in all-plasma loadout are not that bad. I've played against a friend who likes to take 3 units with a supporting Lord and they can do some damage.
koooaei wrote: Can chosen take both c-bolters and chain axes? So that they become an inferior but passsable version of strikers.
Quick mathhammer says this would result in a modest increase in wounds inflicted against MEQs; don't need to mathhammer it to know it's better against toughness 5. I like it! Axes look cool also; I have thought of converting up some chainglaives with combi-bolters built in, like the custodes spears but without the holier-than-thou attitude, but massive dakka halberds sounds even better! And would clearly define the models as distinct from any basic CSMs that might make it into the army in the future.
The role of the chosen is as mobile flexibility; they can roll up and unleash mass dakka from their combi-bolters in turn 2, supported by the rhino's combi-bolters and havoc launcher, which coupled with NLLD debuff from them and others will hopefully melt some units. Then they would probably assault, especially if some raptors have assaulted nearby (which they need to do in order to bring their full LD debuff to bear, and let's be honest raptors aren't amazing in assault). They're not going to do amazing in either role; NM or zerkers would do better at dakka and assault respectively, but Chosen can provide some flexibility and in an army list built around flexibility (raptors, bikes, etc) this will hopefully mesh well.
Having said that, I'm tempted to get some zerkers just so I can roll actual buckets of dice when they assault. I get jealous watching Guard players with their Vulture gunships with double punisher cannons.
koooaei wrote: Can chosen take both c-bolters and chain axes? So that they become an inferior but passsable version of strikers.
Quick mathhammer says this would result in a modest increase in wounds inflicted against MEQs; don't need to mathhammer it to know it's better against toughness 5. I like it! Axes look cool also; I have thought of converting up some chainglaives with combi-bolters built in, like the custodes spears but without the holier-than-thou attitude, but massive dakka halberds sounds even better! And would clearly define the models as distinct from any basic CSMs that might make it into the army in the future.
The role of the chosen is as mobile flexibility; they can roll up and unleash mass dakka from their combi-bolters in turn 2, supported by the rhino's combi-bolters and havoc launcher, which coupled with NLLD debuff from them and others will hopefully melt some units. Then they would probably assault, especially if some raptors have assaulted nearby (which they need to do in order to bring their full LD debuff to bear, and let's be honest raptors aren't amazing in assault). They're not going to do amazing in either role; NM or zerkers would do better at dakka and assault respectively, but Chosen can provide some flexibility and in an army list built around flexibility (raptors, bikes, etc) this will hopefully mesh well.
Having said that, I'm tempted to get some zerkers just so I can roll actual buckets of dice when they assault. I get jealous watching Guard players with their Vulture gunships with double punisher cannons.
I recently bought two handed weapons for my Khorne Berzerkers (going to use 2 handed chainaxes instead of dual wield) and the store had chainglaives with bolters attached to them. They look a lot like Custodes weapons only much smaller.
So. quick question - The Masque's "Eternal Dance" states that all attacks against the chosen Unit get a +1 to hit. Is this only for The Masque herself or actually 'all attacks' i.e. Berserkers, Possessed, Maulerfiends etc.? Because WS 3+ Maulerfiends & 2+ Possessed / Berserker with eventual re-rolls of 1 sound really good to me.
Thinking of taking this to my first ITC; what do ya'll think? Its primarily DG, with a splash of Demons (tide of bodies, plus goes with my "recursion" theme by bringing back dead plaguebearers) and CSM (Jump Punchy lord and some Cultists to hold stuff)
EverlastingNewb wrote: So. quick question - The Masque's "Eternal Dance" states that all attacks against the chosen Unit get a +1 to hit. Is this only for The Masque herself or actually 'all attacks' i.e. Berserkers, Possessed, Maulerfiends etc.? Because WS 3+ Maulerfiends & 2+ Possessed / Berserker with eventual re-rolls of 1 sound really good to me.
Yep, works on anything and everything. Remember though it’s only for the fight phase. So just melee stuff.
EverlastingNewb wrote: So. quick question - The Masque's "Eternal Dance" states that all attacks against the chosen Unit get a +1 to hit. Is this only for The Masque herself or actually 'all attacks' i.e. Berserkers, Possessed, Maulerfiends etc.? Because WS 3+ Maulerfiends & 2+ Possessed / Berserker with eventual re-rolls of 1 sound really good to me.
Yep, works on anything and everything. Remember though it’s only for the fight phase. So just melee stuff.
But also any fightphase, not just yours - right? I guess i'm getting the Masque
EverlastingNewb wrote: So. quick question - The Masque's "Eternal Dance" states that all attacks against the chosen Unit get a +1 to hit. Is this only for The Masque herself or actually 'all attacks' i.e. Berserkers, Possessed, Maulerfiends etc.? Because WS 3+ Maulerfiends & 2+ Possessed / Berserker with eventual re-rolls of 1 sound really good to me.
Yep, works on anything and everything. Remember though it’s only for the fight phase. So just melee stuff.
But also any fightphase, not just yours - right? I guess i'm getting the Masque
Does it even specify fightphase? I haven't read the rule, but based on the quote it sounds like, yes, reroll hits during your turn or your opponent's turn.
EverlastingNewb wrote: So. quick question - The Masque's "Eternal Dance" states that all attacks against the chosen Unit get a +1 to hit. Is this only for The Masque herself or actually 'all attacks' i.e. Berserkers, Possessed, Maulerfiends etc.? Because WS 3+ Maulerfiends & 2+ Possessed / Berserker with eventual re-rolls of 1 sound really good to me.
Yep, works on anything and everything. Remember though it’s only for the fight phase. So just melee stuff.
But also any fightphase, not just yours - right? I guess i'm getting the Masque
Does it even specify fightphase? I haven't read the rule, but based on the quote it sounds like, yes, reroll hits during your turn or your opponent's turn.
Yeah, i read it wrong - at the beginning of EVERY fightphase you choose a unit within 1" of the Masque. And it's a +1 to hit, not rerolls of 1 & lasts until the end of the fightphase.
With Advance & Charge Loci, +1 Strength due to being a Herald, +1 to hit 'aura', -1 to hit her (and everything with the 'daemonette' keyword) in CQC as an 6" aura, always fighting
first and just 86 pts. she surely sounds fabolous as an EC-Possessed (or any slaanesh daemon csm for that matter) support character. Also, 8" move isn't to bad either. Hm..
So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
Nature's Minister wrote: So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
The Grav Flux does look scary on paper; nice to hear this translates to the table as well. With the butcher cannons, have you been able to utilise the Ld debuffs at all?
Nature's Minister wrote: So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
Thats perty neat; I've been looking for something as ranged support to my DG.... might have to ask for one come xmas!
Nature's Minister wrote: So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
The Grav Flux does look scary on paper; nice to hear this translates to the table as well. With the butcher cannons, have you been able to utilise the Ld debuffs at all?
I noticed that when my friend played a double Butcher Cannon Leviathan. It was an absolute monster, but only AP-1 on its cannons takes some of the edge off- especially if it targets something in cover. It was still a great piece, but it didn't really single handedly cripple my army you described like the Bombard.
Speaking of Forgeworld, I recently picked up a DreadClaw, I'm pretty excited to use it for accurate Noise Marine delivery into optimal range and flying it around assaulting and burning away with Jet Wash. Have you guys been having good luck with DreadClaws? Chapter Approved reducing its price to 130 is a much more manageable price point, but its still Rhino durability.
bestweapons i found on leviathan are grav flux and soulburner ribaudkin, 4d3 mortal wounds wreak havocs, just range 18" but seldom he cant get in range in about 2 turns, many armies plays infiltrators so most time you have a viable target turn 1
Nature's Minister wrote: So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
The Grav Flux does look scary on paper; nice to hear this translates to the table as well. With the butcher cannons, have you been able to utilise the Ld debuffs at all?
I noticed that when my friend played a double Butcher Cannon Leviathan. It was an absolute monster, but only AP-1 on its cannons takes some of the edge off- especially if it targets something in cover. It was still a great piece, but it didn't really single handedly cripple my army you described like the Bombard.
Speaking of Forgeworld, I recently picked up a DreadClaw, I'm pretty excited to use it for accurate Noise Marine delivery into optimal range and flying it around assaulting and burning away with Jet Wash. Have you guys been having good luck with DreadClaws? Chapter Approved reducing its price to 130 is a much more manageable price point, but its still Rhino durability.
I’ve found DC to be quite a nice piece of kit, one thing that’s often unexpected is deploying it at the start, having the inhabitants jump out, and warptiming it into the enemy lines. Perhaps not optimal, but nice option if you find yourself against MSU. Possibility to tag team with a Heldrake and surround something so it can’t fall back and you tear it apart in their turn. Perhaps best when you have the advantage in shooting and want to disrupt the enemy at the start.
I’ve found DC to be quite a nice piece of kit, one thing that’s often unexpected is deploying it at the start, having the inhabitants jump out, and warptiming it into the enemy lines.
Things that arrive from reserve this turn cannot move again for any reason, and this includes Warptime (see FAQ)
I’ve found DC to be quite a nice piece of kit, one thing that’s often unexpected is deploying it at the start, having the inhabitants jump out, and warptiming it into the enemy lines.
Things that arrive from reserve this turn cannot move again for any reason, and this includes Warptime (see FAQ)
It isn't coming from reserves if you start it on the table, like (s)he said.
Yep. It’s one of those “*may* deploy in orbit/teleportarium/tunnel/etc” instances, and as a mobile vehicle, it’s got some interesting possibilities.
Kharybdis can also do the same. Start twenty Noise marines in it, have as many Berzerkers behind it, change places, cast Warptime and Diabolic Strength and Delightful Agonies on it, throw it at their FACE, have Noise Marines clear out stuff that could pile on and prevent evacuation, EAT THEM
Nature's Minister wrote: So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
The Grav Flux does look scary on paper; nice to hear this translates to the table as well. With the butcher cannons, have you been able to utilise the Ld debuffs at all?
I mean, sure. You'll take out an extra model or two if you fire into a big pack. But it seems better on paper than it actually is.
Spend the extra ten points for the bombards. It hits hordes and armor harder.
If you mean stacking, no. I'd imagine it'd be better for night lords.
What I did start playing with was adding ahriman with death hex. Make them eat that five damage. Or two if it's infantry
Nature's Minister wrote: So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
The Grav Flux does look scary on paper; nice to hear this translates to the table as well. With the butcher cannons, have you been able to utilise the Ld debuffs at all?
I mean, sure. You'll take out an extra model or two if you fire into a big pack. But it seems better on paper than it actually is.
Spend the extra ten points for the bombards. It hits hordes and armor harder.
If you mean stacking, no. I'd imagine it'd be better for night lords.
What I did start playing with was adding ahriman with death hex. Make them eat that five damage. Or two if it's infantry
The question for me really is if you are in bombard range than likely you can't get the -1 to hit from alpha legion and open yourself to being charged, which if you run butcher cannon and bombards can be mitigated slightly by the 36 inch range on the butcher. I realize there are two hellflamers but still not sure... if its quins charging you with a 4 up invul etc... -1 AP 7 hits (on average) isn't too scary, only 2/3 of those will wound an average troop so ona verage the flamers commnicate about 4 wounds at -1 ap...
Also with two bombards if you aren't in range of anythign juicy after warptime, you have a nice 350 point unit not doing much for an entire turn.
If you mean stacking, no. I'd imagine it'd be better for night lords.
Yeah that's what I play. Given the impact of the grab flux I'm wondering if it might be better just rolling with it instead; an extra 2 dead from -7ld with butcher cannons when stacked doesn't seem so great compared to the mayhem you described ; I'd still be able to use a straight -5ld debuff using Night Lords and Raptors shenanigans. My current list can pile on the dakka to force the moral tests and melt units with the -5ld, and I've been struggling to work out a good use for warptime or a good anti-tank inclusion; looks like this might be both those things. Probably need to squeeze in another bit of armour though as a distraction carnifex to draw fire off the leviathan; my current list only has 2 rhinos in it. Maybe a hell-turkey...
Butcher cannons are probably more efficient when taken on Contemptors. You only need to get one wound through for the -2Ld to count, and I reckon weight of fire from more conventional anti-infantry like Heavy Bolters is a more efficient way to rack up the volume of kills that makes the Ld penalty really work. Also, a rifleman Contemptor can tag two units, only one of which can use 2CP to ignore it, whilst a Butcher array on a Leviathan or Deredeo can only hit one.
It’s a shame Reapers are so much weaker than twin autocannons, as it makes the Butcher have a niche as a moderately high volume of fire walker weapon with decent range that kills Primaris and Terminators.
My double chainfist Contemptor did work last game against my buddy's Tau. It was brought down to half HP, regenerated off some drones, brought down to half again, and ate up the remaining drones to full health. It was pretty funny.
lindsay40k wrote: Butcher cannons are probably more efficient when taken on Contemptors. You only need to get one wound through for the -2Ld to count, and I reckon weight of fire from more conventional anti-infantry like Heavy Bolters is a more efficient way to rack up the volume of kills that makes the Ld penalty really work. Also, a rifleman Contemptor can tag two units, only one of which can use 2CP to ignore it, whilst a Butcher array on a Leviathan or Deredeo can only hit one.
It’s a shame Reapers are so much weaker than twin autocannons, as it makes the Butcher have a niche as a moderately high volume of fire walker weapon with decent range that kills Primaris and Terminators.
What do you mean about the leviathan butcher array being able to hit only one? They have the option of taking two gun arms, if one so chooses. Was it related to something else?
lindsay40k wrote: Butcher cannons are probably more efficient when taken on Contemptors. You only need to get one wound through for the -2Ld to count, and I reckon weight of fire from more conventional anti-infantry like Heavy Bolters is a more efficient way to rack up the volume of kills that makes the Ld penalty really work. Also, a rifleman Contemptor can tag two units, only one of which can use 2CP to ignore it, whilst a Butcher array on a Leviathan or Deredeo can only hit one.
It’s a shame Reapers are so much weaker than twin autocannons, as it makes the Butcher have a niche as a moderately high volume of fire walker weapon with decent range that kills Primaris and Terminators.
What do you mean about the leviathan butcher array being able to hit only one? They have the option of taking two gun arms, if one so chooses. Was it related to something else?
Well, a Butcher Array is essentially two Butcher Cannons, except it can only target one unit. If you want to throw around -2Ld, it’s probably more efficient to do it with a single Butcher Cannon on a unit that can take it (or two on the same, letting you hit two units with the penalty and reduce the mitigation ability of CP) and leave the weapon slots on Leviathans and Deredeos for stuff that’s got more raw damage output.
Are Giant Chaos Spawns worth it still at 150? I know at 75 they were absurdly good, so im wondering if doubling their cost made them completely unviable, or just balanced. A hidden bonus for GW being incredibly lazy id that theyre still only 5 power for Summoning and Deepstrike
lindsay40k wrote: Butcher cannons are probably more efficient when taken on Contemptors. You only need to get one wound through for the -2Ld to count, and I reckon weight of fire from more conventional anti-infantry like Heavy Bolters is a more efficient way to rack up the volume of kills that makes the Ld penalty really work. Also, a rifleman Contemptor can tag two units, only one of which can use 2CP to ignore it, whilst a Butcher array on a Leviathan or Deredeo can only hit one.
It’s a shame Reapers are so much weaker than twin autocannons, as it makes the Butcher have a niche as a moderately high volume of fire walker weapon with decent range that kills Primaris and Terminators.
What do you mean about the leviathan butcher array being able to hit only one? They have the option of taking two gun arms, if one so chooses. Was it related to something else?
Well, a Butcher Array is essentially two Butcher Cannons, except it can only target one unit. If you want to throw around -2Ld, it’s probably more efficient to do it with a single Butcher Cannon on a unit that can take it (or two on the same, letting you hit two units with the penalty and reduce the mitigation ability of CP) and leave the weapon slots on Leviathans and Deredeos for stuff that’s got more raw damage output.
Nature's Minister wrote: So, leviathan dreads are nasty. Had one dual grav flux bombard leviathan kill two bloodthirsters, a soul grinder and 30 bloodletters last game. Game prior, took out two predators and two sets of obliterators. Surprisingly, the one with twin butchers has been lackluster though
The Grav Flux does look scary on paper; nice to hear this translates to the table as well. With the butcher cannons, have you been able to utilise the Ld debuffs at all?
I mean, sure. You'll take out an extra model or two if you fire into a big pack. But it seems better on paper than it actually is.
Spend the extra ten points for the bombards. It hits hordes and armor harder.
If you mean stacking, no. I'd imagine it'd be better for night lords.
What I did start playing with was adding ahriman with death hex. Make them eat that five damage. Or two if it's infantry
The question for me really is if you are in bombard range than likely you can't get the -1 to hit from alpha legion and open yourself to being charged, which if you run butcher cannon and bombards can be mitigated slightly by the 36 inch range on the butcher. I realize there are two hellflamers but still not sure... if its quins charging you with a 4 up invul etc... -1 AP 7 hits (on average) isn't too scary, only 2/3 of those will wound an average troop so ona verage the flamers commnicate about 4 wounds at -1 ap...
Also with two bombards if you aren't in range of anythign juicy after warptime, you have a nice 350 point unit not doing much for an entire turn.
There are no perfect weapons in the chaos arsenal. You trade some range for absolutely bonkers damage output. I'd rather be closer and annihilating anything I point at than plinking away at 36 inches
The hellflamers work alright and you still have four strength 8 attacks.
lindsay40k wrote: Butcher cannons are probably more efficient when taken on Contemptors. You only need to get one wound through for the -2Ld to count, and I reckon weight of fire from more conventional anti-infantry like Heavy Bolters is a more efficient way to rack up the volume of kills that makes the Ld penalty really work. Also, a rifleman Contemptor can tag two units, only one of which can use 2CP to ignore it, whilst a Butcher array on a Leviathan or Deredeo can only hit one.
It’s a shame Reapers are so much weaker than twin autocannons, as it makes the Butcher have a niche as a moderately high volume of fire walker weapon with decent range that kills Primaris and Terminators.
What do you mean about the leviathan butcher array being able to hit only one? They have the option of taking two gun arms, if one so chooses. Was it related to something else?
Well, a Butcher Array is essentially two Butcher Cannons, except it can only target one unit. If you want to throw around -2Ld, it’s probably more efficient to do it with a single Butcher Cannon on a unit that can take it (or two on the same, letting you hit two units with the penalty and reduce the mitigation ability of CP) and leave the weapon slots on Leviathans and Deredeos for stuff that’s got more raw damage output.
I kinda feel butcher cannons are a waste on contemptors, too. Double chainclaw double soulburner is so nasty when you have other models to draw fire for a turn. If you can get one or two into a parking lot, it's magical
I think the butcher cannons are best on a Deredeo. He doesn’t mind sitting 36 away and firing. The other FW dreads wanna reach out and touch someone, so short range guns aren’t the end of the world
Thanks for the info on night lords, guyz.
I've played a game recently, though it wasn't good to get a feeling of how legion trait works cause i faced death guard. But still, the game was fun and relatively casual night lords did much better than expected.
It was a rather small 1250 pt game.
Night lords featured 2 lords (1 with relic claws, 1 with fist and cbolter), 2*5 marines with plasma in a rhino, 28 cultists, helbrute with scourge and fist (iirc you can get both after faq, so i ran him this way, the opponent didn't mind), 5 raptors with 2 plasmas and a cbolter on a champ, 3 bikers with a cbolter champ, heldrake and las predator.
The opponent was fielding Typhus, some new character that had a re-roll fnp aura, 2*20 zombies, 2*5 plague marines with blight launchers and cplazma champ, 3 spawns and 3 new plague tanks with mortars and 36' meltas.
We didn't manage to get a full game in cause i had to go but NL started to get an upper hand by turn 3.
Some highlights:
-Heldrake rushed forward and started to annoy the flank further away from Typhus. While not bad, i feel that the drake's damage is very low for a hefty 185 pt price tag. The utility is there for smaller games though.
-Helbrute ran 14' forward thanks for an amazing advance roll, took 6 wounds in a shooting phase, 5 of which were unexpectedly dealt by a couple blight launchers and a single plazma gun, but than wiped a 20 zombie squad in mellee with a flurry of high str multi-wound attacks. Seems like he managed to pay off. Crazed strategem is pretty good.
-Plazma raptors killed 3 plague marines on the drop and than managed to charge a wounded spawn finishing it off. Though, mellee damage of raptors is pitiful, they seem to be an averagely ok unit.
-Relic claw lord did his job of clearing off some plague marines, granting re-rolls and scoring points. Pretty good for points. Night lord claws are probably on the better end of the avaliable artifact spectrum.
- 3 bikers with 4 combi-bolters were pretty good at hugging blos to hide from serious fire and shooting down zombies at rapid fire range. They almost payed off after 2 turns which is great for such a unit.
-Marines did nothing of value cause their rhino was ruined close to my deployment zone so they had to plink at zombies and plague marines in cover from far away expectedly doing nothing of value.
-Las pred was very underwhelming against plague tanks cause of their 5++ and fnp. I'm not sure what to use instead of it or even if there is something to use at all. It's role was to score a backfield point and deal some damage to tanks. It did score but the damage was not great. And it's not cheap. While crawlers are like 140 pt and were tougher and killier at the same time. I'm not really into forgeworld, so there seem to only be a couple options left. Havoks, which are just like a predator but much less durable on acerage. Cheaper, though. Or just cultists/marines and more points towards something killy like plazma termies or obliterators. Though, i intentionally don't use marks and sorcs, so termies and oblis are out of the picture for me. Maybe more raptors or bikes.
koooaei wrote: Thanks for the info on night lords, guyz.
I've played a game recently, though it wasn't good to get a feeling of how legion trait works cause i faced death guard. But still, the game was fun and relatively casual night lords did much better than expected.
It was a rather small 1250 pt game.
Night lords featured 2 lords (1 with relic claws, 1 with fist and cbolter), 2*5 marines with plasma in a rhino, 28 cultists, helbrute with scourge and fist (iirc you can get both after faq, so i ran him this way, the opponent didn't mind), 5 raptors with 2 plasmas and a cbolter on a champ, 3 bikers with a cbolter champ, heldrake and las predator.
The opponent was fielding Typhus, some new character that had a re-roll fnp aura, 2*20 zombies, 2*5 plague marines with blight launchers and cplazma champ, 3 spawns and 3 new plague tanks with mortars and 36' meltas.
We didn't manage to get a full game in cause i had to go but NL started to get an upper hand by turn 3.
Some highlights:
-Heldrake rushed forward and started to annoy the flank further away from Typhus. While not bad, i feel that the drake's damage is very low for a hefty 185 pt price tag. The utility is there for smaller games though.
-Helbrute ran 14' forward thanks for an amazing advance roll, took 6 wounds in a shooting phase, 5 of which were unexpectedly dealt by a couple blight launchers and a single plazma gun, but than wiped a 20 zombie squad in mellee with a flurry of high str multi-wound attacks. Seems like he managed to pay off. Crazed strategem is pretty good.
-Plazma raptors killed 3 plague marines on the drop and than managed to charge a wounded spawn finishing it off. Though, mellee damage of raptors is pitiful, they seem to be an averagely ok unit.
-Relic claw lord did his job of clearing off some plague marines, granting re-rolls and scoring points. Pretty good for points. Night lord claws are probably on the better end of the avaliable artifact spectrum.
- 3 bikers with 4 combi-bolters were pretty good at hugging blos to hide from serious fire and shooting down zombies at rapid fire range. They almost payed off after 2 turns which is great for such a unit.
-Marines did nothing of value cause their rhino was ruined close to my deployment zone so they had to plink at zombies and plague marines in cover from far away expectedly doing nothing of value.
-Las pred was very underwhelming against plague tanks cause of their 5++ and fnp. I'm not sure what to use instead of it or even if there is something to use at all. It's role was to score a backfield point and deal some damage to tanks. It did score but the damage was not great. And it's not cheap. While crawlers are like 140 pt and were tougher and killier at the same time. I'm not really into forgeworld, so there seem to only be a couple options left. Havoks, which are just like a predator but much less durable on acerage. Cheaper, though. Or just cultists/marines and more points towards something killy like plazma termies or obliterators. Though, i intentionally don't use marks and sorcs, so termies and oblis are out of the picture for me. Maybe more raptors or bikes.
Heldrakes are indeed a bit too expensive for their price...If you only count their guns and toughness. But bare in mind they have a unique trait of being good in melee and range, have INCREDIBLY long movement with no need to pivot, and have a 5++ invuln.
Yeah, I was thinking 60 total models was a bit light. Can make one chaos Lord vanilla and add ten more cultists. They'll be morale immune too which helps
Nature's Minister wrote: Yeah, I was thinking 60 total models was a bit light. Can make one chaos Lord vanilla and add ten more cultists. They'll be morale immune too which helps
as i said only real way to make cultists worth are large blob of them (40 models) better if fearless, then they are a force to reckon
Idea is that lords follow around dreadnoughts and bring a little extra firepower to knock off hard targets, and still have four attacks in close combat if necessary. Also I have moritats and like the model.
I tabled both opponents today, but one was basically playing the primaris ultramarine army from the starter kit and a few tanks so that wasn't too fair. The other was space wolves and I lost all my cultists and a contemptor but that was about it.
I think I'm gonna try to work in the ten extra cultists. Dunno about the power fist. I was thinking about it and it seemed like a good idea, but I am not sure I really want them in close combat too much, and if they are forced to fight, the pistols pack enough punch.
Epidemius lists might not be pleased to face Knight armies. It’ll be an opposing force that’s low on CP, but we’ll have to stick near our daemon princes for most of the battle if we want rerolls as unit kills will be low and all anti-infantry guns will be peashooters.
I think non-DGCSMs will become more important elements of an Epi list as they’ll give access to Death Hex. Thing is, those krak missiles that ignore LOS & invulnerable saves and can pick out characters... even a DP is going to have an egg timer on him. Two CSM psykers minimum, I think - Familiar stratagem can give the surviving one the spell you need to accomplish titanfall.
I suppose the various buffs to Nurgle melee damage will also be important.
Plague Drones will probably take at least four stomps each to kill. A big unit of them could envelop a Knight base and prevent it falling back & shooting.
Am I the only one having trouble dealing with Drucharii?
My opponent and I typically play 1250pts on a 4x4 table, and he has the luxury of not having to worry about horde armies in the metagame (it's him on Drucharii, my Emperors Children, 2 SM opponents, and a Necron player), so he basically just loads up with Ravagers/Raiders in full disintegrator loadouts, with some bikes, talos, and wyches, to tarpit.
Recent games I've basically just been trying to load up on as many Butcher Cannon wielding dreadnought chassis as I could get my hands on, with some Daemon Prince support for counter charge and the re-roll aura. A squad of Oblits normally drops in with some variety of Lord to hopefully alpha strike a vehicle off the table.
Between his mobility, and being able to negate that first use of Endless Cacophony via the Agents of Vect stratagem, most games generally result in him being able to pick his fights, while controlling the table (which makes for more freedom when it comes to tactical objectives), while I'm fruitlessly just trying to shoot down as much as I can before he collapses on top of me.
It feels a lot like I just can't use Noise Marines at all, since they just get decimated by his 30 disintegrator shots, plus whatever the talos are throwing out when it comes to mortal wounds, or they get tarpitted by bikes/wyches. Non-flying anti-vehicle assault units seem pointless since anything I charge can just back off and unload into the charging unit the following turn.
I'm somewhat restricted by my available units, which probably isn't helping matters either. Essentially the sum total of my collection is:
A variety of Lords/Sorcs 2 Flying Princes 30 Noise marines 2 Rhinos 10 Cultists and 30 Daemonettes (which are being proxied as Cultists for the time being) The Masque (who can proxy as a Herald if needs be) 10 Havocs (4 autocannon, 4 lascannon, 2 champs) 2 Decimators 1 Contemptor 1 Helbrute 1 Leviathan (en route, only ordered it a couple of days ago, will be a month or so before it arrives and I don't really have an appropriately sized proxy available) 1 Defiler (lol) 1 Fire Raptor 4 Oblits 5 Terms 5 Raptors 3 Spawn 15 Palatine Blades with jump packs (can proxy as Possessed or Warp Talons)
And that about covers things. It's a lot of stuff, but it feels like basically 75% or more is completely worthless running into the Drucharii list styles that I end up playing into. Though I'm also willing to concede that a 4x4 table probably isn't helping me much either, since it doesn't give me much of an opportunity to spread him out and pick elements off from range.
i doubt pure chaos have great chances against a strong drukari list, their units costs too few and they are too efficient, to be competitive with chaos im afraid you must mix demons (nurgle) and chaos, that gives you resilent mass and some elite units well screened, i still didn't play against a drukari but i watched a match with nurgle+Ts and that went pretty equilibrated.
I hadn't really considered Nurgle Daemons to be honest. I guess the idea would be to just bring a bunch of efficient tarpits and have them bodyguard the important killy units?
Ap0k wrote: I hadn't really considered Nurgle Daemons to be honest. I guess the idea would be to just bring a bunch of efficient tarpits and have them bodyguard the important killy units?
That seems to be popular. Myself, I’ve been fielding a force of Epidemius Battalion, Word Bearers Oblits Spearhead, DG Drones & Haulers Outriders. Stay bunched up a bit around DPs at the start to get rerolls, after killing a couple of units scatter around to pick targets. Going t,o treat myself to a Decimator for a Soulburner Petard to finish off near dead units
Ap0k wrote: I hadn't really considered Nurgle Daemons to be honest. I guess the idea would be to just bring a bunch of efficient tarpits and have them bodyguard the important killy units?
That seems to be popular. Myself, I’ve been fielding a force of Epidemius Battalion, Word Bearers Oblits Spearhead, DG Drones & Haulers Outriders. Stay bunched up a bit around DPs at the start to get rerolls, after killing a couple of units scatter around to pick targets. Going t,o treat myself to a Decimator for a Soulburner Petard to finish off near dead units
yes more or less that's the idea, Nurgle battalion can put lot of cheap and durable bodies on the table, Dp's/oblys bloated drones deliver some punch, it works i will try a close setup like that this weekend, playing a Nurgle battalio+Ts supreme command made me 2nd place at 30 person tournament, and i won both with Tau and Eldar so for me Nurgle is a good answer.
I have an idea for a chaos army but I haven't run my traitors in 8th yet (been mostly playing IG and Templars) so I come seeking your advise.
The idea I have is to run a Chaos-tide list. I want to run about 100 chaos space marines in multiple blobs. So where has this idea come from? Well I have been running a Templar Black-tide list for the last 4-5 months and it has been doing really well. Now obviously I haven' been doing great against top tier lists, but I haven't done that badly either and against mid tier armies I have had a lot of success, winning nearly all my games.
I have found that many solid mid tier armies struggle vs 100 MEQ., due to high toughness and a good save. However, in my Templar army I have only 50 3+ save guys and the other 50 are 4+ save guys, crusader squads being made up of both marines and scouts. But CSM can take 20 3+ save models in a unit, making the army much tougher (thats the theory anyway).
I have a pretty good idea of how I want the list to look like:
Battalion 1:
Chaos Lord
Sorcerer
17 Chaos Marines with 2 x special weapons, champion has a plasma pistol + power weapon or a combi weapon
17 Chaos Marines with 2 x special weapons, champion has a plasma pistol + power weapon or a combi weapon
17 Chaos Marines with 2 x special weapons, champion has a plasma pistol + power weapon. or a combi weapon
Battalion 2
Chaos Lord
Sorcerer
17 Chaos Marines with 2 x special weapons, champion has a plasma pistol + power weapon or a combi weapon
17 Chaos Marines with 2 x special weapons, champion has a plasma pistol + power weapon or a combi weapon
17 Chaos Marines with 2 x special weapons, champion has a plasma pistol + power weapon. or a combi weapon
All the regular marines are going to have bolters. Now I am thinking that the special weapons should be plasma as it is really good this edition. I was also thinking of giving the champion in each squad a combi plasma or melta to essentially have 3 special weapons in each squad. Is this a good idea or would it be better to go plasma pistol + power weapon?
The big question I have is what legion to go for? In my mind Battle shock is major weakness of the army. I think there are 4 good choices:
1) Iron Warriors: Their warlord trait would be really good for stopping battleshock, (this armies main weakness). However, it only has a 6" range so it might be hard to cover the whole army.
2) Black Legion: +1 ld naturally and all +1 if combined with the icon of vengeance for Ld 10 should help with battle shock.
3) Word Bearers: Reroll battleshock + IoV makes for Ld 9 rerollable. Not too bad
4) Alpha Legion: Rely on the -1 to hit to reduce causalities and maybe IoV to get +1 LD too.
Another idea is to go Black Legion and take Abaddon to give everyone in 12" fearless, that should cover the whole army. But it seems over the top to spend 240 points just for fearless!
I really appreciate any feedback from my fellow brothers of darkness and if anyone has any idea on how to get this concept working I would really appreciate it
Abaddon is also giving you reroll all failed hits, you can drop the 6 banners which gets you back 30 points and means you can think about giving your marine squads a mark (slaanesh) to take advantage of endless cacophony.
This strat also makes me think taking the Combi plas on the sergeants rather than power weapons is more useful. That's a lot of firepower to shoot again if you're in double tap range. 12 plasma and 68 bolter shots total. Combine it with votlw and Abaddon's rerolls so you can overcharge and you're doing serious damage
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and 2 extra CP for Abaddon means one of those endless cacophonies is free.
The shooting rapid fire when you advance is situational but can be useful considering your entire army will be carrying RF weaponry too.
You will have a decent number of CPs, so don't be afraid to make the odd unit fearless at a crucial moment in the game (and then maybe alpha legion for the -1 to hit - each casualty it saves you is better than a +1 LD for that unit...although you will be aiming to get into 12" I imagine a lot of the time, in which case Black Legion will get you there faster while being able to shoot on the way)
I like the idea of your army as a huge horde of MEQ - it's the last thing most people expect, and makes their anti-tank a bit redundant...
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 94pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainaxe, Mark of Slaanesh
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 106pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Havoc w/ boltgun
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator
i played Ts supreme command, lot of psy powers are good but some long range fire is more useful,im planning to add a 4th autocannon, 16 str7 d2 hits each turn are juicy, Nurgle give me resiliency an lot of cheap bodies, any suggestion?
I main Word Bearers and I rarely bother with IoV. If I’m running MEQ horde, I want Icons of Wrath or Excess to maximise reach or output, and a Dark Apostle’s rerolls aura - which also grants Ld 9. @Abaddon303’s quite right to point to Black Legion as doing all of that much better than Lorgar’s kids and Iron Warriors being a solid runner up, though tbh I think Alpha Legion have the best game at this - starting most of a century within spitting distance is soooo much better than having them walk there, fearless or no.
And then, if you’re drowning your opponent in bodies on turn one, may as well pay a little more for Berzerkers and stomp, stomp for all you’re worth. Or at least until an FAQ decides commandos need to have a scintilla of sanity, a notion of silence, a cloud of flies or oiled joints, and bans the specialist Cults from being Forward Operatives.
After 5 years of playing in a very casual way, i've decided to go to my first tournament with a list probably best described with the sentence "What the fork?"
But i actually didn't ended up in last place, and had actually a real good time playing. And some people were even stumped when facing my army, which led
to me winning 2 games! Here's the madness called 'the fast & the fabulous'
Spoiler:
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
+ HQ +
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed: Pavane of Slaanesh
The Masque of Slaanesh
+ Elites +
Fiends of Slaanesh: Fiend of Slaanesh
Fiends of Slaanesh: Fiend of Slaanesh
Fiends of Slaanesh: Fiend of Slaanesh
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
The first game i've won was against Tau, i basically overran him turn 1. I had 3 out of 4 advance rolls of 5+, two Maulerfiends of 6. Coupled with some very, very lucky charge rolls & bad saves against the combi-bolter fire
from my bikes, after T2 he conceded. The second game was a bit better for me - it was a Smurf army. The Tau gave me the problem of having so much 'fly', which made my Fiends of Slaanesh useless. The Smurf though
didn't had any flyers. He started though, killed 1 of my Lasherfiends and some bikes but didn't degrade 2 of the Lashers. He also moved up just a smidge. He also didn't knew that the Maulerfiends could advance & charge
and that the Masque gives the +1 to hit. So, in the possessed & the fiends went absolute ham on the forward units of his & the Fiends of Slaanesh locked 2 Razorbacks in combat for 4 turns. With some heavy weapons
out of the picture i was able to win by points due to him not being able to get away with his vehicles.
Overall, i liked this style of playing. And even my list was fun. Maybe dropping the prince & getting a bike lord instead. Also, Fiends of Slaanesh & 26 inch moving&charging maulerfiends are just awesome. Maybe i'll drop
the Possessed for something else, dunno. Have to think about it.
With the release of Codex IK this weekend, has their been any indication as to how the changes might affect Questor Traitoris ( I think that's what the Chaos Knights are called..)? Would we still be relying on the Index data slate or would we simply be taking an updated Codex Knight sans the house/legion trait, allying it in to a chaos force and calling it Traitoris?
eternalxfl wrote: With the release of Codex IK this weekend, has their been any indication as to how the changes might affect Questor Traitoris ( I think that's what the Chaos Knights are called..)? Would we still be relying on the Index data slate or would we simply be taking an updated Codex Knight sans the house/legion trait, allying it in to a chaos force and calling it Traitoris?
Currently GW has stated that Renegade Knights won't get an update with the Codex. Whether or not we get a pity FAQ either with the Codex or with the IK FAQ remains to be seen.
Has anyone else spotted that the "Imperial Knights: Renegade" set has rules for renegade knights - it says just the dataslate, so I guess no points, but these could be updated rules in line with imperial Knights?
- Rules for using Knights in games of Warhammer 40,000, including datasheets for a Knight Paladin, Knight Errant, Knight Gallant, Knight Warden, Knight Crusader, and Knight Renegade;
MrPieChee wrote: Has anyone else spotted that the "Imperial Knights: Renegade" set has rules for renegade knights - it says just the dataslate, so I guess no points, but these could be updated rules in line with imperial Knights?
- Rules for using Knights in games of Warhammer 40,000, including datasheets for a Knight Paladin, Knight Errant, Knight Gallant, Knight Warden, Knight Crusader, and Knight Renegade;
Just checked the site and saw this as well.. this could be interesting. Going to stay tuned to the release for more details..
Knight Renegade = just put two Avenger Gatling Cannons on it, if you’re playing a Power Levels game with friends or at an event then you’ll pay for them anyway, also you will never get a plastic kit with distinctive Chaos weapons or even a set of faction rules, now cross your fingers the loadout won’t be banned or nerfed to death
lindsay40k wrote: Knight Renegade = just put two Avenger Gatling Cannons on it, if you’re playing a Power Levels game with friends or at an event then you’ll pay for them anyway, also you will never get a plastic kit with distinctive Chaos weapons or even a set of faction rules, now cross your fingers the loadout won’t be banned or nerfed to death
Personally, I got both a renegade knight and a Lord of skulls and I would always chose LOS over the renegade knight almost every single time. Being able to use strategems and cast powers like warp time on a LOS wins out over using a renegade knight without strategems and psychic powers. And a LOS gets better as it gets injured while a renegade knight gets worse.
Now, if they allow us to field renegade Dominus model knights next time, that might be a different matter. The fire power output of a Valiant or a Castallan is a lot higher than even a renegade knight, no matter what loadout it has.
lindsay40k wrote: Knight Renegade = just put two Avenger Gatling Cannons on it, if you’re playing a Power Levels game with friends or at an event then you’ll pay for them anyway, also you will never get a plastic kit with distinctive Chaos weapons or even a set of faction rules, now cross your fingers the loadout won’t be banned or nerfed to death
Personally, I got both a renegade knight and a Lord of skulls and I would always chose LOS over the renegade knight almost every single time. Being able to use strategems and cast powers like warp time on a LOS wins out over using a renegade knight without strategems and psychic powers. And a LOS gets better as it gets injured while a renegade knight gets worse.
Now, if they allow us to field renegade Dominus model knights next time, that might be a different matter. The fire power output of a Valiant or a Castallan is a lot higher than even a renegade knight, no matter what loadout it has.
The cost of the new Castellan works out to be less than a Lord of Skulls.
Considering the Stratagems in the new Codex, in relative terms, that Renegade just got a lot more expensive for what it does.
Well, like I said. if they allow us to field renegade Castallans or renegade valiants, it would be a different story. But at this point of time, that's a no go.
It makes Chaos Knights actually suprisingly effective in Power Level games (like some Doubles for funsies events) Since you can take a more expensive load out for a cheaper power level compared to an Imperial Knight (which are balanced for each load out.)
It takes a lot to justify ever using a Chaos Knight... so if you find yourself in a casual PL game... it could be fun to bring the Knight and maybe, just maybe not be a huge handicap!
One thing that’s good in the Knights book is the sword/first combo (Knight Gallant) seems to be getting +2A and +1WS
The Index (and Admech) versions all have the same profile, with no bonus for melee specialisation, other than the points saving. Nice to see that the duelist is genuinely a beast at close quarters. Their better familiarity with melee combat also means that their stomping is far deadlier than the lumbering gunners as well (which, I suspect, is how the majority of their battle will go - trampling their way to a screened target, or denied one altogether by a no-tanks list). So, fingers crossed we at least get an additional rule similar to the bonuses dreadnought-type things usually get from melee dedication.
Interesting that the Chaos Knight power level is based on an average of its loadout. Usually, you pay for a Lascannon or a power fist & combi-melta on every model that can hold them
lindsay40k wrote: One thing that’s good in the Knights book is the sword/first combo (Knight Gallant) seems to be getting +2A and +1WS
The Index (and Admech) versions all have the same profile, with no bonus for melee specialisation, other than the points saving. Nice to see that the duelist is genuinely a beast at close quarters. Their better familiarity with melee combat also means that their stomping is far deadlier than the lumbering gunners as well (which, I suspect, is how the majority of their battle will go - trampling their way to a screened target, or denied one altogether by a no-tanks list). So, fingers crossed we at least get an additional rule similar to the bonuses dreadnought-type things usually get from melee dedication.
Interesting that the Chaos Knight power level is based on an average of its loadout. Usually, you pay for a Lascannon or a power fist & combi-melta on every model that can hold them
It seems weird because it is only calculating one model. The power math gets REAL weird after adding lots of models.
Ap0k wrote: I hadn't really considered Nurgle Daemons to be honest. I guess the idea would be to just bring a bunch of efficient tarpits and have them bodyguard the important killy units?
That seems to be popular. Myself, I’ve been fielding a force of Epidemius Battalion, Word Bearers Oblits Spearhead, DG Drones & Haulers Outriders. Stay bunched up a bit around DPs at the start to get rerolls, after killing a couple of units scatter around to pick targets. Going t,o treat myself to a Decimator for a Soulburner Petard to finish off near dead units
yes more or less that's the idea, Nurgle battalion can put lot of cheap and durable bodies on the table, Dp's/oblys bloated drones deliver some punch, it works i will try a close setup like that this weekend, playing a Nurgle battalio+Ts supreme command made me 2nd place at 30 person tournament, and i won both with Tau and Eldar so for me Nurgle is a good answer.
Maybe I'm missing something, but Plaguebearers don't really seem that much more efficient per point when it comes to survivability compared to cultists (vs Splinter Weaponry)? While there's going to be marginal benefit vs close combat attacks, the Alpha Legion trait probably evens that out vs shooting attacks, and the 210pts 30 Plaguebearers cost could put just over 52 Cultists on the table instead. Thats just raw stats + traits though, and doesn't factor in any stratagems/psychic powers, so there's an unknown element in the equation.
By contrast, Nurglings seem like they're be much better troops tax tarpits, since losing FNP vs 2+ Damage weapons really isn't a big deal (hell, if he shot Disintegrators into Nurglings I'd consider that a win!). Their drawback comes with the necessity to add more units/models in order to effectively screen vs things like jetbikes that can jump over them to tie up butcher cannon dreads, which expands the cost of the tax (though they're absolutely more efficient than plaguebearers, per point).
Further to this, the HQ slots don't really seem much to write home about. Poxbringers look solid on first glance, with some beneficial psychic powers to help shore up defences. Epedimius seems like he needs a much heavier commitment to Nurgle Daemons in order to benefit from the tally, and many of the named characters seem intended to synergize with assorted specific units (plaguebearers, nurglings, etc).
While I could just jam a min-sized battalion into a list for CP's, it feels like I still need to be bringing relevant bodies to the table somehow. The Heavy Support/Fast Attack/Elites choices don't really seem to provide much that I can't get in the CSM 'dex, particularly since that's where most of my anti-vehicle needs to come from.
I'm not very familiar with C: Daemons though, so I'm happy to concede that there may very well be aspects that I'm missing. I'd just prefer not to have to invest in codex + models only to find that they aren't greatly expanding my options.
but T4 and FNP 5+++ is big, not all De weapons are poisoned so be wounded at 3+ instead of 2+ and save anything he can throw at you makes a big difference, then -1 from Al is easy to override for a fast army like De and doesn't work in close combat. Cultists are a strong choice but they need some baby sitting like Abbadon makes them fearless. I ran a list with both 60 Pb and about 110 fearless cultists and in any case Pb usually gets the end of game, cultists not.
Realistically, in a medium sized game, the main payoff of an Epidemius list is that after a turn of good shooting you don’t need to rely on your DPs to provide rerolls and you can even sacrifice them to assassinate an MVP (I like to use Chaos Familiar to give Warptime to mine to take someone by suprprise). Sure, you can go all-out on damage, but I prefer a more balanced list in which Epidemius is an objective camper who provides a perk to most of the army and frightens a lot of deep insertion units.
If you’re taking Epidemius in a list, he needs a screen or else your army-wide buffs are waiting to be deep striked to death. You’re taking Nurgle Daemons, so you’re taking Nurglings to start on objectives etc. So, you’re already over halfway there to filling out a NURGLE DAEMONS Battalion. A squad of Plaguebearers in an Epidemius list is not taken in lieu of a squad of Cultists, it’s taken in lieu of the three squads of Cultists who’d be necessary to pay troops tax in a HERETIC ASTARTES battalion.
I know a lot of people write the Malefic Lord off as a waste of points since the increase, but My Lords have been putting in some serious work.
Today one opened a Rhino so my Chosen could Plasma the marines inside to death, pulled a Nelifum out of the sky like he was Starkiller dropping the ISD, stalled a jump chaplain in CC in one game and left the table alive.
Another game he mulched a Scout Squad and half a hellblaster Squad before being brought down by three turns of shooting from an Intersessor squad.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: I know a lot of people write the Malefic Lord off as a waste of points since the increase, but My Lords have been putting in some serious work.
Today one opened a Rhino so my Chosen could Plasma the marines inside to death, pulled a Nelifum out of the sky like he was Starkiller dropping the ISD, stalled a jump chaplain in CC in one game and left the table alive.
Another game he mulched a Scout Squad and half a hellblaster Squad before being brought down by three turns of shooting from an Intersessor squad.
I feel like he’s still usable for 80 points.
Eeeeh, at 80 points he isnt good. Better off paying a bit more for a real sorcerer at that point.
eternalxfl wrote: Anyone able to get a hold of the Renegade Knight data sheet from the Renegades box set? I'd be eager to see a screenshot of it.
Spikey bits <shudders> did an unboxing, and it is literally the index datasheet. Bare in mind they made this box set before the absolute SEA of people started complaining about the lack of Chaos support as the previews rolled out, so they probably didn't have time to change anything, IF they change anything.
Well, originally posted in the TS thread about adding some renegade allies to my force, but I figured I might ask here too, maybe someone here has some experience with them.
A single Rouge psyker coven seems ok, 15 wounds with 5++ for 100 points isn't all that bad, and they can do some neat tricks (like supercharging a crucial deny attempt), and it opens the path for some serious firepower with vanguard/spearhead/outrider detachments.
Any opinions on the worth of some heavy guns to bring in?
Basilisks? medusas? sentinals? heavy weapon teams?
Or even, RUSSES?!
Anything sounds valuable for CSM, especially TS flavored? anyone has any experience fielding allied renegades?
BoomWolf wrote: Well, originally posted in the TS thread about adding some renegade allies to my force, but I figured I might ask here too, maybe someone here has some experience with them.
A single Rouge psyker coven seems ok, 15 wounds with 5++ for 100 points isn't all that bad, and they can do some neat tricks (like supercharging a crucial deny attempt), and it opens the path for some serious firepower with vanguard/spearhead/outrider detachments.
Any opinions on the worth of some heavy guns to bring in?
Basilisks? medusas? sentinals? heavy weapon teams?
Or even, RUSSES?!
Anything sounds valuable for CSM, especially TS flavored? anyone has any experience fielding allied renegades?
Renegades in general are...Eh. Honestly, if you can find an equivelent in the CSM/TS books, they're probably going to synergize better. But if you have to bring Renegades, Russes are indeed a welcome addition, as well as Basilisks, since we don't have much of anything that compares to those two as far as play style goes.
I’ve yet to kill anyone with mine, but with stalkers you can sit them on an objective in cover and your opponent will have to dig them out like ticks.
There are worse ways to spend 34 points
Broadly - post FAQ what are our best ranged dakka? Most competitive rulesets require a unit (or more) to be killed first turn (ITC, NOVA, even CA, etc.). I am struggling with finding strong options over 24 inches that I don't mind having on the table first turn. I am asking from a competitive standpoint.
PBC - competitive but not really great at killing a unit reliably even with 3 and rerolls. Advancing with the flamer can be "ok" but -1 to AP against units in cover also hurts the damage out.
Pinks - 24 inch range but can assault (if they start on the table)
Strong value for shots, but most anti-chaffe armies (IG with relic, tau, etc.) will shred this if we don't go first (even with reinforcement points and strat - ecsp, if DE negate autopass on morale etc.) - and once below 20 creates trouble. I tried this with up to 75 reinforcement points for one squad and barely survived one turn (at which point the unit was neutered). Furthermore hitting on 4's (5's practically competitively at a minimum as all armies are -1 to hit - even worse 6's on the advance!) even at 90 shots and wounding on 3's - 4's (depending if flicker goes off) - at no AP leaves some to be desired (try killing an eldar ranger squad or tau infiltrator).
Oblits - Decent choice but point intense, relatively squishy (even with alpha legion and in cover - think Dark reapers - every fail one shots a model) - and cannot deepstrike out of deployment turn 1 - which means most turn ones oblits aren't doing anything.
Cultists - This is actually an ok option but has similar morale problems to pinks unless going Iron Warriors / Abaddon - still also suffers brutally if going second. Tide of traitors helps.
Any dreadnaught (since I know someone will suggest) - not really competitive
Rapier Quad Bolters - 12 shots at 5 str -1 ap 1 dmg (if in cover) sitting at 2+ on the ground floor of ruins (half obscured) is not awful at T5 - but realistically even with 48 inch range with some LoS blocks and the fact it is heavy, low movement, and everyone plays with shining spears - likely to give more than it gets (allowing easy soulbursts etc.).
Bubblewrapped characters - don't really have any great choices (like commanders) for ranged output? Daemon Princes are still strong but won't offer much T1 as they are melee, unless you don't mind throwing your warlord on the fire, i.e. smite spam over 24 inches not reliable (maybe TSons...)
The reason this is important is becaucse in ITC for exapmle you get a point for killing a unit and also a point for killing more. This could lead to a 2-3 point swing from T1 where you constantly feel the need to "catch up." (lost 1 point for kill something, opponent kills more, also [in theory] if you were to kill more). Also from a practical standpoint if you go second, you will be eating 2 full turns of dakka before being able to punch back easily. Most armies I've seen for chaos go for the mob approach and just dumpster a ton of nurgle units and PBC on the table and slowly waltz up, but would be nice to have some viable ranged options (tau flier lists, etc.)
Havocs. Access to Mark of Slaanesh and the Endless Cacophony Strategem means that a single Havoc squad can output 8 Las Cannon Shots in a single turn. Alpha Legion and Cover can help their durability, or Black Legion can give them full rerolls to hit.
Hellforged Scorpius- an artillery tank which can shoot twice if it doesn't move- that is 6d3 shots ignoring LoS with Ap-2 and D2.
Noise Marines can be hilarious under Alpha Legion. Infiltrate them where you want them before the game starts. If you go first fire at will. If your enemy goes first and wipes them out, you still have a decent chance of picking up that turn one kill on the enemies turn 1 as they go down.
Plasma Havocs seem to be solid, and they’ve had a little buff against melee counters.
Hellforged Scorpius seems really good on paper. Definitely on my medium-term shopping list.
If you can deliver them, Warpflamer Rubricae are pretty terrifying.
Chaos Knight with two Gatling Cannon whatsits seems decent, but probably going to be waiting a long time for parity with loyalists with their heirlooms and households and Stratagems. Being able to stick their chainsword through a second floor window gives Imperial Knights a distinctive niche in the post-FAQ rules.
Hellforged Spartan has a preposterous amount of anti-tank. Definite candidate for Prescience, Warptime (to deliver the contents next turn), and Delightful Agonies (to give a virtual +33%W). I’m liking the Heavy Flamers loadout when you Warptime it.
lindsay40k wrote: Plasma Havocs seem to be solid, and they’ve had a little buff against melee counters.
Hellforged Scorpius seems really good on paper. Definitely on my medium-term shopping list.
If you can deliver them, Warpflamer Rubricae are pretty terrifying.
Chaos Knight with two Gatling Cannon whatsits seems decent, but probably going to be waiting a long time for parity with loyalists with their heirlooms and households and Stratagems. Being able to stick their chainsword through a second floor window gives Imperial Knights a distinctive niche in the post-FAQ rules.
Hellforged Spartan has a preposterous amount of anti-tank. Definite candidate for Prescience, Warptime (to deliver the contents next turn), and Delightful Agonies (to give a virtual +33%W). I’m liking the Heavy Flamers loadout when you Warptime it.
renegade with 2 gatling cost too much 548pts for a weapon only str 6 and ap-2, ok 24 hits but still too few, when you start face just -1 to hit you see how overcosted it is, 12 average hits 8 wounds on T4 and power armor can still save 1/3 about 5 wounds on a marine squad, if you shoot a veichle you wound on 5+, try shoot an alaitoc wave serpent usually you get about 3-4 wounds, no more
and a wave cost about 144pts lol. Sorry but renegade knights are for non competitive games right now.
akaean wrote: Hellforged Scorpius- an artillery tank which can shoot twice if it doesn't move- that is 6d3 shots ignoring LoS with Ap-2 and D2.
+1 for the Scorpius.
For the points, it is the best shooting platform for Chaos. Fires a ton of shots and each shot is like a lascannon-lite.
Take three of them and stick Abaddon in the middle for rerolls.
It's a pretty darn good amount of firepower for sure, but it eats up almost half your points in a list, or more.
They're definitely overall more point efficient than regular Whirlwinds at least.
That's an interesting perspective worth discussing. My impressions may be particular to the kinds of lists I run, but I feel like a Scorpius is a steal for the points.
Anytime you sink a lot of points into a certain (type) of unit, you have to ask what kind of advantage you are going to get. In most of my lists, I run 3 Laspreds, and they are there to kill enemy tanks early in the game. They account for about a third the cost of a 2,000 point army.
Each Laspred averages about 7 wounds a turn. I always have Abaddon nearby for rerolls, which ensures at least 2 shots get through on most things. They are not terribly efficient against infantry, but that's not really the reason I take them.
When I swap out a Laspred with a Scorpius, I'm asking myself whether I can get more than 7 wounds a turn out of them. That means each one needs to wound an average of 4 times a turn, since it does 2 damage per wound. Also, 3 Scorpius' cost more than 3 Laspreds - about the cost of a Daemon Prince. So I have to account for that as well.
In most games, each Scorpius does average more than 7 wounds a turn. I haven't done the mathhammer, but (as you might expect) they wreck infantry / heavy infantry / light tanks and have a harder time against bigger things like Baneblades, Land Raiders, Wraithknights, etc. There have been games where they are dishing out 40+ wounds a turn, there have been games where it's more like 20. But that's still a lot of wounds.
But what makes them shine is the fact I can put those Scorpius tanks anywhere on the table. When I have them stuck behind LOS blocking terrain, opponents tend to feel a lot of pressure to take them out and often leads to mistakes. For example, I played against Custodes about 3 weeks ago. My opponent committed 2 Shield Captains to traveling around a building to take them out, which meant my army had an extra turn to shoot at (and destroy) them. He would have done better charging my Cultists, which would have made the SCs immune from shooting and put him in range for a charge once he wiped them out.
I've also gotten pretty good at screening triple tanks and know how to use charge / fall back shenanigans to make it hard to close in on them. So long as I have Abaddon and some CSMs / Cultists on the table, I can make it really hard to get anywhere near the tanks. When I compare this with Laspreds - who need LOS to shoot stuff - it's a completely different game. A chunk of my army can just sit behind a building while I wait for an opponent to come in at a certain angle, which is a pretty big advantage. And this is also a great way to clear objectives, as long as you are in range you have a ton of shots you can drop down before your other guys get there.
So I feel like a Scorpius is worth more than any other Heavy Support choice in a Chaos army. It gets a lot of work done with the launchers, sure, but it's also a huge distraction unit. Most other armies are not prepared to fight against them.
Havocs. Access to Mark of Slaanesh and the Endless Cacophony Strategem means that a single Havoc squad can output 8 Las Cannon Shots in a single turn. Alpha Legion and Cover can help their durability, or Black Legion can give them full rerolls to hit.
Hellforged Scorpius- an artillery tank which can shoot twice if it doesn't move- that is 6d3 shots ignoring LoS with Ap-2 and D2.
Noise Marines can be hilarious under Alpha Legion. Infiltrate them where you want them before the game starts. If you go first fire at will. If your enemy goes first and wipes them out, you still have a decent chance of picking up that turn one kill on the enemies turn 1 as they go down.
Not quite keen on the havocs for the point cost - it looks great but in practice they are targeted and die easily even if hidden in the back - dark reapers just don't care at all.
I'm going to give the scropius a heavy look - By mathhammer I think it still dies to one volley of an average plod of dark reapers who materialize out of the webway... although as it can sit out of LOS which may be the saving grace here. Can someone explain how the cover system and vehicles work, all it has to do is touch cover and be obscured to get the bonus(? - there were a few FAQ on how the cover system works... or does that only apply to infantry?)
Also didn't think of that use for noise marines, I am actually warm to this idea - go first and value should be strong. Go second and likely still possible to capture first blood and make back some points (shoot into pathfinders, guardian blobs, etc.)
Two follow-up questions:
1) Optimal size for noise marine squad for this purpose? Its tempting to go big and refire with a large group of noise marines on paper - but at the end of the day bigger group is harder to get in cover, keep at least 12 inches out and make back value/keep out of melee. At a glance the investment is higher. I'm thinking rather than 3 squads etc. etc. to just run one blob at 10-15 and hope for the best (no rerolls as they would probably be infiltrated)?
2) What is the model for the scorpius? Its the legion deimos pattern whirlwind?
Havocs can get the cover save but outside of FW I'm starting to think there's more value in rifleman helbrutes.
147 points for twin las and missile launcher
Take the same on havocs MSU and you're looking at 140pts. But you've got 3 less wounds and toughness 4 not 7.
The helbrute stratagem is maybe a little situational but at least you can use it alongside endless cacophony which you're prob gonna want to use on obliterators rather than your havocs.
Abaddon303 wrote: Havocs can get the cover save but outside of FW I'm starting to think there's more value in rifleman helbrutes.
147 points for twin las and missile launcher
Take the same on havocs MSU and you're looking at 140pts. But you've got 3 less wounds and toughness 4 not 7.
The helbrute stratagem is maybe a little situational but at least you can use it alongside endless cacophony which you're prob gonna want to use on obliterators rather than your havocs.
Helbrutes are meatier, but they also are harder to get into cover, and can't be transported in any meaningful way. It is also weak to lascannon and melta fire, where with Havocs interestingly enough, they laugh at the prospect of getting fired at with a lascannon.
I am looking at Predator tanks, but without side sponsons and instead add havoc launchers. They are really cheap at slightly over 140 points, but if you have three, then kill shot makes even the havoc launchers good, and it makes the predator's main autocannon gun deadly. The good thing about not having even heavy bolter sponsons is that all your guns are range 48, so you are free to place the tanks well in your back line.
Now, your opponent can and will kill off a tank or two, but then its not so many points, so you can then spend the points elsewhere on other shooty units as well.
Could always do three scorpiuses, 100 cultists with morale immunity of your choice, and a supreme command with two daemon prince of tzeentch and ahriman.
Pros:
* Transports up to 12 models
* Upgradable Storm Bolters to Twin Volkite Chargers for +6 per gun
* Melee weapon drill head that dishes out extra mortal wounds on big things that don't die to it instantly
* Movement 8 / 6 / 4
* Toughness 8
* BS 3 / 4 / 5
* A 6 / D6 / D3
* Free Melta Cutter
* You CAN get out immediately after surfacing
* It explodes a flat six inches always
Cons:
* 130 points before wargear makes it just as expensive as a drop pod before you start putting guns on it
* It explodes a flat six inches always
* It's still pretty easy to kite
* No Jump Pack, Terminator, or Cult of Destruction
* Does not auto wound in a bubble around it when it surfaces
Overall I like this model more than the Hellforged Termite. You give up the auto-mortal wounds for more guns, a melee weapon, and overall more consistency. You opponent wasn't always going to give you the perfect spot to surface from to dish out those mortal wounds, so having more guns instead seems like a better bet. The melee on this thing is also pretty great and since you're going to slam it into the enemy to soak up overwatch anyways it might as well destroy whatever it hits, right? It also has great explode potential. Most of all it acts as great line of sight blocking when it appears since you can have your Berzerkers duck behind it for a turn while your Chosen or Havocs pop out the other side with Plasma or something.
Hopefully they will see the price hike on this model and reduce the price of the Dreadclaw in kind, eventually.
Point of order - you don’t get out immediately after surfacing, you choose whether you want to or not. That’s a significant point for, say, a flamer squad. Though with deep strikes not happening until T2, it’s an obscure niche.
In fact, what exactly does this do that a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis doesn’t do better?
lindsay40k wrote: Point of order - you don’t get out immediately after surfacing, you choose whether you want to or not. That’s a significant point for, say, a flamer squad. Though with deep strikes not happening until T2, it’s an obscure niche.
In fact, what exactly does this do that a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis doesn’t do better?
Noted that first point, and it makes it a lot better IMO. You can pop out your ranged unit and keep your Berzerkers inside a turn, then have them use the exit move for 9 inches. Pretty good IMO.
Ways it's better than a Dreadclaw:
* 12 unit size instead of 10, allowing two 5 man units and HQs * Toughness 8
* Guns. Those Twin Volkite Chargers are pretty damn tasty
* More melee attacks that hit harder with a potential for mortal wounds on larger targets
* You don't have to get out right away (again, this is great for those melee units you don't want to gamble the 50% charge chance on)
* It's pretty big so it blocks line of sight, whereas the Dreadclaw and Kharabdis are on struts and do not
The pods have higher movement and can transport more types of units. Other than that the Termite has a lot more options and potential to do more. In fact since you don't have to disembark when it surfaces you could do something stupid like take two units of Possessed with HQ support, stay inside, charge out of surfacing, either survive the next turn or break, disembark in the middle of the enemy lines. This would require a lot of support from the rest of your army, but there is potential there. Pods you have to make sure there is cover to deploy your bois into, Termite you can keep them snug inside, which if they are melee is a buff IMO.
Being able to get a tougher, deadlier, meleeier Rhino 9 inches from the enemy AND keep my Berzerkers safe for a turn is good with me. I have plenty of other units rushing up the board to screen the edges of the Termite in order to avoid the enemy wrapping it.
Pros:
* Transports up to 12 models
* Upgradable Storm Bolters to Twin Volkite Chargers for +6 per gun
* Melee weapon drill head that dishes out extra mortal wounds on big things that don't die to it instantly
* Movement 8 / 6 / 4
* Toughness 8
* BS 3 / 4 / 5
* A 6 / D6 / D3
* Free Melta Cutter
* You CAN get out immediately after surfacing
* It explodes a flat six inches always
Cons:
* 130 points before wargear makes it just as expensive as a drop pod before you start putting guns on it
* It explodes a flat six inches always
* It's still pretty easy to kite
* No Jump Pack, Terminator, or Cult of Destruction
* Does not auto wound in a bubble around it when it surfaces
Overall I like this model more than the Hellforged Termite. You give up the auto-mortal wounds for more guns, a melee weapon, and overall more consistency. You opponent wasn't always going to give you the perfect spot to surface from to dish out those mortal wounds, so having more guns instead seems like a better bet. The melee on this thing is also pretty great and since you're going to slam it into the enemy to soak up overwatch anyways it might as well destroy whatever it hits, right? It also has great explode potential. Most of all it acts as great line of sight blocking when it appears since you can have your Berzerkers duck behind it for a turn while your Chosen or Havocs pop out the other side with Plasma or something.
Hopefully they will see the price hike on this model and reduce the price of the Dreadclaw in kind, eventually.
Interesting.
This has similar melee advantages to a Kharbydis with the melta cutters in close combat, except it's not limited to vehicles / monsters and works even when you don't get the charge. So it's an assault dedicated transport, which is kind of novel - perfect for Khorne. You could to 10 troops plus an HQ.
I would wait to see if the points change before buying the model. The KAC is too expensive now for what it does, and I suspect it's only a matter of time before GW does the same here. Long term, this looks like a 200+ point model.
It occurs to me this would be perfect for a Grey Knights army but GW chose specifically to exclude them. Also, Death Guard and Thousand Sons are not included on the datasheet - does that mean this is only available to Codex CSMs?
The termite to me, seems to have all the advantage over a regular dreadclaw. For basically the same price, it's tougher, shootier, punchier, and can carry more guys. All it's lacking is the fly/speed, but it's deepstriking anyways and should be plenty close enough.
Even compared to a dedicated assault walker like the maulerfiend, this thing takes the cake.
Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
Dactylartha wrote: Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
Well, pure CSM aint exactly top of the shelf, and the bearers are practically the bottom of CSM.
May I ask what was your list to begin with? can't really tell you what went wrong without knowing what went.
Dactylartha wrote: Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
I main Word Bearers. Been doing OK against Titanic stuff, including Knights. Stuff we can do:
- Death Hex the shields down then dakka it. EC + VotLW + Prescience on Noise Marines or Plasma squad deals weight of shot damage. Fiends of Slaanesh can stop it running away from a melee beatstick. Warptime gets a Lord of Skulls in its face; a Skullmaster can throw useful buffs at it. Diabolical Might on a Talons Elixer DP gives it a bloody nose. Exalted Champion makes horde melee viable - Berzerkers will take it down like ants swarming a lion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Chaos Spawn can envelope it and prevent fall back whilst taking a screwdriver to it
Dactylartha wrote: Visited FLGS that was running an ITC tournament. Every imperium player had 1-3 knights with most of them having 3. There were knights at every table, and half of them were the new big boys.
Granted I'm new, but my poor, sweet Bearers army can barely cope with one of the old knights let alone 3 of the variety.
Has anyone used Skarbrand vs knight(s)? Mine's still headless and unpainted :(
Anyone else find a niche to handle that much dakka on that many wounds?
Well, pure CSM aint exactly top of the shelf, and the bearers are practically the bottom of CSM.
May I ask what was your list to begin with? can't really tell you what went wrong without knowing what went.
I've only been collecting for about a year. I don't have a standard list at any specific point level and i juuuust started dipping my toes into competition. FLGS here runs a "casual" tournament with PL caps, no FW allowed, and some vestigal house rules left over from 7th ed. (I'll enter a 1750 pt tourney next month with PL cap of 14).
Spoiler:
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [213 PL, 4025pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Word Bearers
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 104pts]: No Chaos Mark, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
Cypher [6 PL, 110pts]
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: Hellforged sword, Intoxicating Elixir, The Voice of Lorgar, Warlord, Warp bolter
. Slaanesh: Warptime
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 78pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark, Power maul, The Cursed Crozius
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 94pts]: Combi-melta, Mark of Khorne, Power axe, Talisman of Burning Blood
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 139pts]: Combi-flamer, Eye of Tzeentch, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 44pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber
. Cultist Champion: Shotgun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 49pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
Chaos Space Marines [9 PL, 172pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-plasma, Power sword
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 237pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-melta, Power maul
. Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-bolter
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer, Power fist
Chosen [11 PL, 129pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Chosen: Power fist
. Chosen: Power axe
. Chosen: Chainsword
. Chosen: Chainsword
. Chosen Champion: Boltgun, Power maul
. Chosen w/ Lightning Claw: 2x Lightning Claw
Fallen [6 PL, 105pts] . Fallen Champion: Combi-plasma, Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
. Fallen w/Melee Weapon: Power sword
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 229pts]: Havoc launcher
. Left Arm: Hellforged chainclaw, Soulburner
. Right Arm: Hellforged chainclaw, Soulburner
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [27 PL, 565pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Renegade Chapters
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 138pts]: Chainfist, Combi-melta, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh
Sorcerer with Jump Pack [7 PL, 127pts]: Death Hex, Eye of Tzeentch, Force sword, Infernal Gaze, Mark of Tzeentch, Plasma pistol
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-melta, Power sword
. Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-melta, Power fist
. Terminator: Chainfist, Combi-melta
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Power fist, Reaper autocannon
++ Total: [270 PL, 5189pts] ++
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [29 PL, 565pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Word Bearers
+ Elites +
Possessed [11 PL, 220pts]: No Chaos Mark, 10x Possessed
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 125pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon
Havocs [7 PL, 135pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 85pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Havoc launcher, No Chaos Mark
I have a lot of the basics, a few go-to's like the DP and my contemptor, but no Oblits, Spawn, Noise Bois, or plasma chosen.
Word bearers are cool but I don't have the Daemons yet to utilize the only advantage of summoning, so I could just pretend to be Alpha Legion but whatever.
I do like to summon a Daemons DP after my CSMDP is killed though.
@Dactylartha - Summoning is very weak in this current rules set, having the models in play from the start (or deep striking without a character missing a turn to be the summoner) is far stronger - especially for Characters who can get Loci. (Nice Outriders with Karanak, there - I like to add a Jugger Herald to mine for even more coverage.)
Main use for Chaos Reinforcement Points at the moment is for splitting Horrors, and Horticulous planting trees for Plaguebearers, Obliterators, or Plagueburst Crawlers.
I tend to play my Word Bearers as ‘universal Daemonkin’; a bunch of units like Obliterators, Possessed, and characters on Daemon steeds (from Index Chaos); plus some mundane traditional military stuff - Lords, Havocs, tanks; plus the worshipping masses - Cultists galore, often a Dark Apostle.
Decimators are pretty good right now, too, and really suit the Daemonologists.
That’s an interesting Fallen contingent, with that gunner unit already to hand the only thing LEGION plasma really has to offer on the field is compatibility with Warptime, Prescience, Rhinos, and Dreadclaws. Have you had a chance to field them, much?
That’s an interesting Fallen contingent, with that gunner unit already to hand the only thing LEGION plasma really has to offer on the field is compatibility with Warptime, Prescience, Rhinos, and Dreadclaws. Have you had a chance to field them, much?
I have. They perform very very well if they don't get out shot early on. The plasma pistols can overcharge in combat which helps. They don't really need Cypher, but with Battle Brothers beta rule, enforced locally, they can't be run without the entire detachment.
Compared to chosen or havocs, the only benefit they have is that they don't need a babysitter. Chosen can get better loadouts and both they and havocs, as you said, get transports and synergies from CSM.
Cypher is an absolute star with or without any fallen by him.
EverlastingNewb wrote: He also didn't knew that the Maulerfiends could advance & charge.
If only, alas Maulers aren't effected by chapter traits :(
They get it from the allied Slaaneshi characters and their Daemonic Loci. Give your Maulerfiends MoS and now they have the required <Slaanesh> and <Daemon> keywords. The Renegades Legion Trait is just their for the infantry.
koooaei wrote: So, does anyone use forgeworld Kharibda droppods? They look awesome.
Totally worthless after the point increase in CA last winter, made even more worthless after the deep strike nerf and EVEN EVEN more worthless because you can't warptime it or it's occupants out the bat anymore.
Maybe good if you're using it to hide a good chunk of your shooting army and can hide the other half of your shooty army on the board till they arrive. I'm hoping CA comes along and fixes them somehow or gives World Eaters a reason to use them again.
I've definitely had better luck Deep Striking ranged units than melee units. I've had good experiences loading up a squad of Noise Marines in a Dread Claw. Gives them a lot of flexibility in terms of deployment, especially against armies that can alpha them before they can get in range to Music of the Apocalypse with their Sonic Blasters. If you are being rushed they can still drop in your deployment zone and light something up on turn 1.
With all of the restrictions to assault units, such as not being able to come in turn 1, and not being eligible for deep strike, I usually just prefer to start my choppy units on the board and use Warptime to close in. That said, the new Termite Drill, if it doesn't get nerfed. is pretty slick for deep striking close range cqc troops. Its t8, and has an absolutely brutal drill mounted on it. Very scary in melee, with great options for a lot of dakka.
EverlastingNewb wrote: He also didn't knew that the Maulerfiends could advance & charge.
If only, alas Maulers aren't effected by chapter traits :(
They get it from the allied Slaaneshi characters and their Daemonic Loci. Give your Maulerfiends MoS and now they have the required <Slaanesh> and <Daemon> keywords. The Renegades Legion Trait is just their for the infantry.
Yep, that's the stuff.
Two side questions; did anyone try out / got any experience with R&H Hellhounds or Lemus Russ' in stock config? Also, can you use the Vindicator Stratagem when 1 is a Vindicator Laser Destroyer?
I run a Plasma Russ and it can be great as long as you don’t melt yourself with Supercharge, but I feel that the battlecannon would be better for the main gun after using it a few times
I’m looking at picking up a Trio of Hellhounds, I think the track guards would be a mandatory upgrade on them.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: I run a Plasma Russ and it can be great as long as you don’t melt yourself with Supercharge
I’m looking at picking up a Trio of Hellhounds, I think the track guards would be a mandatory upgrade on them.
That was my idea as well - either run 3 Track guarded Hellhounds or 2 Quad-Flamer Hellforged Pred's (it's about 20~ points more expensive though).
In an assault-based lifeform army, they could be interesting to melt some faces.. literally.
Tbh, you’d end up spending 25 points to get a barebones renegade commander to keep it battle forged with a vanguard, but I think three hellhounds would work out better just because of track guards.
Since i've never played H&R (or Imps for that matter), does a Tank-Squad counts as 1 drop if there are multiple vehicles? Wouldn't really matter unless you use a patrole detachment.
Oblits or terminators - in terms of weight of damage with stratagems?
For a similar number of points (~600) you can get 3x3 oblits or 10 combi plasma / power sword terms and a Sorcerer.
On average (with one squad with endless cacophany), oblits output 48 x S8 -2 D2 shots
Combi plasma terms (with EC and prescience) output 40 S8 -3 D2 shots (hitting on 2s)
Now, most people seem to be using oblits, and they do appear to tip over in terms of output (bar low stat rolls). However when you apply VOTLW strat the terms damage becomes a lot more consistent, wounding T7 on 2s. With one big squad you can buff it up whereas only one oblit squad can be buffed.
Another stratagy I haven't seen mentioned post FAQ is the ability to infiltrate Alpha Legion terminators (and sorc) for 2CP turn 1, then obvious use EC for another 2CP and optionally VOTLW you have a formidable alpha strike. Example calcs is that with both rounds of shooting can down two stormsurges (or 4 rhinos - ~40 wounds on T7)
Are oblits just that much more flexible in that they see the majority of the play time?
* 3 wounds a pop mean Oblits aren't instant killed by 2 damage base attacks
* Oblits are fully effective at 24 inches, whereas Terminators really want to be rapid firing to get the most out of their plasma. This lets them fire over screens far more effectively.
* Oblits have a significantly smaller footprint, making them easier to deep strike and find pockets in those 9 inch denial bubbles from enemy units, where it can be difficult to fit 11 terminator bases in.
So it comes down to a lot of things. Veterans + Endless Cacophony is very good, even on a single unit of 3 Obliterators, you use it to make sure one or two targets are dead within that 24 inch range you have.
Your problem is that you are assuming that your 10 man block of terminators will be able to get multiple units within 12 inches to get full effectiveness out of those buffs - which will be exceptionally difficult to pull off against a competent player using a competitive list. It is a colossal waste of firepower and buffing energy when your Terminators only have 1 or 2 max targets in rapid fire range on arrival. Screening units make this even worse, nothing will drain the joy out of your face like only having a pair of 40 point guardsman or cultist squads in that 12 inch sweet spot.
Obliterators have more flexibility with where they land and are considerably harder to screen effectively due to to requiring to be within 12 inches. Its also worth noting that if you are talking about multiple squads of Obliterators, they can be in multiple places at once, and you don't even need to bring them all down at once if you want to keep a block of em up your sleeve until turn 3 for whatever reason.
Terminators in generally are overpriced for their durability and the offense you do get. Obliterators are expensive, but they are a fantastic gun platform and can deal heavy damage to almost any target in the game- especially if you use command points or psychic powers to buff them.
Terminators had their moment when they could drop and Warptime on turn one. I actually ran mine with MoK and used Fury of Khorne and their near certain charge to RIP AND TEAR - or just tag - half the enemy army.
Worth noting that the MoS Terminator Death Star can have Delightful Agonies, which is almost as good as having 3W each. Can’t see myself fielding it now, though.
I use my 3x3 Oblits in a spearhead detatchment with my Tzeentch Daemons. I try to take over midfield T1 with 2x30 pinks then DS Oblits in the middle. My Herald buff them for +1S and my DP Warlord makes them reroll 1 to hit and 1 to wound witch makes a deadly combination!!!
Just trying to make up for the last ~500p for my 2k list and thinking of 3 Heldrakes for T1 charge and melt some units that might want my midfield.
Anyone tried a shooty list with 2 or 3 Heldrakes for distraction T1 charging? I only tried 1 so far but dies before i get to do anything..
Tazberry wrote: I use my 3x3 Oblits in a spearhead detatchment with my Tzeentch Daemons. I try to take over midfield T1 with 2x30 pinks then DS Oblits in the middle. My Herald buff them for +1S and my DP Warlord makes them reroll 1 to hit and 1 to wound witch makes a deadly combination!!!
Just trying to make up for the last ~500p for my 2k list and thinking of 3 Heldrakes for T1 charge and melt some units that might want my midfield.
Anyone tried a shooty list with 2 or 3 Heldrakes for distraction T1 charging? I only tried 1 so far but dies before i get to do anything..
P.S
Sorry for my English
I've seen games with 3 Heldrakes and was not impressed. They don't have the shooting they once did and they're not exactly great in combat. The units they charge are chaff, who can throw back a lot of attacks.
Bikes are a little more appealing. They might not get into close combat, but - if they are a distraction unit - that might not matter.
I've seen games with 3 Heldrakes and was not impressed. They don't have the shooting they once did and they're not exactly great in combat. The units they charge are chaff, who can throw back a lot of attacks.
Bikes are a little more appealing. They might not get into close combat, but - if they are a distraction unit - that might not matter.
Yes i do know that they have awful shooting and should have 2D6 Assult flamer in my oppinion. But do you think bikes for ~500p would be distraction enough vs 2x30 Pinks. i play mainly Daemons but feels more and more i go to CSM for lacking (everything but 30man pink 4++).
But 30" move you be 6" in enemy deployment and then can charge over stuff aswellso maximum 42" charge-range. Can be good vs shooty list i might think but will look up bikers too.
Drakes still work okay against Flyers and Fly units. They can keep up with a Warp Timed unit also. I use then as escorts for fast moving Daemon Princes and Daemon Primarchs. But yea. Should have gotten a 2d3 flamer at least for a better spread of hits, or two different firing modes.
Hey guys, quick opinion request here. Can you help me decide between these two options? I'm building an all infantry army including a battalion lead by Abby. The plan was to take maximum advantage of the Black Legion trait to get advancing assault plasma guns marching up the board, with reroll misses. But I'm thinking just taking more cultists might be better.
Abby
5x CSM with combi-plas and plas 5x CSM with combi-plas and plas 24x Cultists with autoguns
10x Havocs with combi-plas and 4x plas
or
Abby
59x Cultists with autoguns
10x Havocs with combi-plas and 4x plas
The rest of my army includes,
Jump Sorc
Winged DP 20 Noise Marines (infiltrating)
10 Cultists
2x3 Oblits
Tazberry wrote: I use my 3x3 Oblits in a spearhead detatchment with my Tzeentch Daemons. I try to take over midfield T1 with 2x30 pinks then DS Oblits in the middle. My Herald buff them for +1S and my DP Warlord makes them reroll 1 to hit and 1 to wound witch makes a deadly combination!!!
Just trying to make up for the last ~500p for my 2k list and thinking of 3 Heldrakes for T1 charge and melt some units that might want my midfield.
Anyone tried a shooty list with 2 or 3 Heldrakes for distraction T1 charging? I only tried 1 so far but dies before i get to do anything..
P.S
Sorry for my English
+1str doesn't work as the str is base 6 + D3 not str USER + D3 or just +D3 etc. Personally i've found 3 oblits in deepstrike to be too slow if you are against for example tau and you go second, you will lose at least one pink squad (even with splitting) turn one against most tau lists. By the time you can deepstrike in all your bubble wrap is gone and riptides make short work of oblits once they are within 12 inches.
Even against most competitive lists at -1 to hit and maybe lightning fast another -1 pinks will be hitting on 6's. Or if you try to use them to FB against another cheap troop Without rerolling even firing 90 shots you will only be hitting 15 times, wounding maybe half that and then they may have a 3-4 up save - which communicate to about 3-4 wounds for the entire units. Slightly better hitting on 5's and rerolling but against models that are 2+ in cover or even 3+ I've been surprised how few wounds tend ot make it through.
Obviously you have to shoot the right units - but it can be surprisingly frustrating when you need First blood and you light up a ranger squad with 90 shots just to see them only get hit on 6's with strat and save the majority of the attacks - and walk out unscathed. I feel like the 3T really hurts them too - if you are running two squads the opponent will shoot whichever one you don't use the strat on for +1 invul and even with a 4 up save they pop pretty easily.
Yeah, even with random weapon profiles, 9 Oblits feels overspecialised. I tend to bring them with a Havoc squad or two, something that can castle up and control a wide radius.
I’ve been thinking. Warptime, Prescience, and Death Hex are awesome. Definitely worth a DP + Sorceror.
The deity spells are also nice. DA is my fave, followed by Miasma. Can’t even remember name of Tzeentch one, but it’s not, like, terrible.
Diabolic Strength makes for a frightening DP, but what about casting it on... a Berzerker champion?
No, hear me out.
If there’s something you’ll struggle to kill at range - say, a Knight with effective 3++ and solid DTW coverage (there’s a FORGE WORLD that brings a 4+ DTW stratagem, which with a reroll stops 75% of Death Hexes, even if you cast on a 14), which also has high damage melee attacks (dunno about you, but I wince whenever my mate’s Tervigon swings those D6 damage claws at a character), then a de facto 6A (eight, if its a charging World Eater, +50% if you burn 3CP) with a squad of ablative wounds looks interesting. Easier to keep out of DTW range than when you get within spitting distance to play Death Hex Roulette.
Definitely worth remembering, IMO, for when your zerk horde is about to Warptime and you’re musing on burning off a familiar to take your opponent by surprise.
Honestly I've taken death hex in a fair number of games, i can never get in range. The 8 WC and 12 inch cast range just seem prohibitive, i've even resorted to taking ahriman on a disc and it is still a struggle to do without exposing my char, have you been having great success with it? How do you position well enough to maximize the utility?
orkswubwub wrote: Honestly I've taken death hex in a fair number of games, i can never get in range. The 8 WC and 12 inch cast range just seem prohibitive, i've even resorted to taking ahriman on a disc and it is still a struggle to do without exposing my char, have you been having great success with it? How do you position well enough to maximize the utility?
I also fail 95% of my Death Hex. Either I fail (and hilariously I seem to roll snakeyes on it often) or it's denied.
orkswubwub wrote: Honestly I've taken death hex in a fair number of games, i can never get in range. The 8 WC and 12 inch cast range just seem prohibitive, i've even resorted to taking ahriman on a disc and it is still a struggle to do without exposing my char, have you been having great success with it? How do you position well enough to maximize the utility?
Deep-striking Sorcerers and Daemon Princes. Whatever casts it has to be durable.
Positioning is tricky, but 12 inches is a 24 inch bubble. That covers a fair bit of the table.
I gave up on offensive Sorcerers a while ago, but the other problem with Death Hex is Deny. I would have, say, Mortarion coming at my lines, Death Hex would go off and he would Deny it.
I think I'm giving up on my heldrake so the thought of taking three just seems madness. The only thing it ever manages is to shut down a couple of tanks shooting for a turn and absorb the sort of firepower that would probably normally be going into my rhino or predator.
The trouble is, the first turn charge is all very good but there is never really a viable target on the board that it can do any significant damage to. Maybe it will kill a couple of marines, it can't even burn up chaff with only d6 autohits.
If you're thinking of taking three, take three predators for turn one killshot and you'll do far more damage.
Unless someone can enlighten me on getting these things to work? I love the models, but like all the Daemon engines they're underwhelming which is a shame because at the moment I feel like I'm playing space marines
The thing about Death Hex is, whilst it’s hard to cast, it’s terrifying to face. Knowing that a Knight or THSS squad or whatever can be stripped nekkid means your humble Sorcerer who never even gets within casting range exerts a serious psychological threat. They can be a scarecrow and a sheepdog. Don’t build a plan around casting it - if you get an opportunity to cast it, make sure that your gunner units have an alternative target and you haven’t moved your entire army into precarious positions on a gambit that relies on the enemy LoC losing its 2++. I hardly ever get to cast it, but it’s something my regular opponent builds army lists around as she’s terrified of her TWC and Wulfen dropping their shields again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: RE Heldrakes: cast DA on one and it becomes a pretty amusing Distraction Carnifex. Also, they shut down shooting for a turn. If you can do multi-lane drifting on your pile in move, you can often tag multiple gunners you didn’t even declare a charge on, Once someone’s dealt with that trick a few times, the presence of a single turkey controls half their deployment decisions.
Disclaimer: this is not to say they’re as good a choice as more Havocs or Obliterators or Noise Marines
death hex is a game changing power, regardless his moderately high cost is a must take for me, cast it on necron wraiths or storm shield termies or Magnus and you deal tons of damage, i play Ahriman on disk so i can cast it at +3 if i need and i have an effective range of 30", death hex cast at average 10 is pretty hard to deny, lasy tournament casted it on wraiths then blasted them away with a nurgle Dp dealing 3-5 damage each wound, a massacre.
I never thought about delightful agonies, might be difficult to keep the Drake in range whilst still charging your opponents backline shooters.
Like you say, they absorb a lot of fire, it's a sacrificial lamb I guess you have to weigh up the lack of damage it causes against the reduction it causes in your opponents ability to damage you
drakes againts a competent player during 1st turn will charge just chaffs, they have too few damage output for 185pts, maybe they can work in a aggressive list
I mean a laspred should take about 7 wounds off an enemy predator. Is that better than tying that enemy predator up for a round of shooting? Okay, the helldrake can tie up more than one thing if you're fortunate with deployment.
I think I'd rather take the 7 wounds and let your opponent fire back at 4+.
Anyone tried a bunch of turkeys in a Slaanesh rushdown list? If half your Chaos Daemons are hitting the line turn one, that could get interesting. Especially if Fiends are preventing fall back.
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone tried a bunch of turkeys in a Slaanesh rushdown list? If half your Chaos Daemons are hitting the line turn one, that could get interesting. Especially if Fiends are preventing fall back.
Never seen them in a Slaanesh list, but a friend of mine used to run 3 Heldrakes with his World Eaters and trust me, Heldrakes are *trash* in this edition. I'm not saying they can't kill anything or lock anything in CC, but they're too random and way too overpriced for what they do. They should double the cost on the Baleflamer (30 to 60), give it 2d6 instead of 1d6 shots and reduce the base cost of the Heldrake by 30pts (to make the Autocannon drake more appealing).
Distraction Carnifex is the only thing they do really well this edition (people are always disproportionnally affraid of them).
Well to be fair, Distraction Carnifex is a very important role for many up close and personal assault armies. All of the Daemon Engines are great for this in the Chaos Dex as because of the 5++ and infernal regeneration they can be surprisingly resilient to anti tank weapons. If you can goad your enemy to shoot at the big scary Heldrake that flew into his face, it may be all you need to get your Berzerker filled Rhinos up the field and into position.
That said, the Heldrake could use some work. As always, the Auto Cannon are completely useless, and its really inconsistent for what it does. S7 is a really bad threshold for its melee, it doesn't have a lot of attacks, and outside of being a psychologically intimidating model with a history of being one of the scariest models in the game since its inception... Its a far cry from what it needs to be for the points you pay for it.
Here is how I would fix the heldrake: Remove the +1 to hit flying targets from the claws, instead make this a special rule for the whole model, called something like "airborne predator : This model ignores the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Additionally, when attacking models that can fly, you may add one to the hit roll" This would only help the Auto Cannon, as the +1 to hit flyers is currently baked into the Claws, and the Baleflamer obviously doesn't care about rolling to hit. Now at least the Auto Cannon can be fired on the move with some semblance of accuracy (typically be hitting on a 4). Its still not great, and probably not up to par with the Baleflamer but at least you'd be able to use it to dogfight other fliers.
Heldrake Claws: buffed to Strength User +1, AP -2, Damage 3. This turns them into a melee weapon you would expect to see on something like a Dreadnought- which it should be. It also means it can now legitimately threaten flying vehicles on the charge. Its not like the Heldrake has that many attacks anyway. Its kind of sad right now that for all of the pictures of a Drake landing on a plane and tearing it apart in the air, they are so hampered by bad AP, low strength, and inconsistent damage that they will often fail completely to do anything. Letting their claws actually deal damage like other combat walkers would do a lot to justify their price and lack of super sonic.
What is the optimal way to run zerkers? Do you need to run a DA and Exalted Champ with them? I tried 9 the other day against shining spears. He failed his quiken and got stuck in the mid - i unloaded rhino warped in the zerkers and proceeded to not kill a single model as i attacked with power fist and battle axe/chainsword into lightning fast reflexes. Wound up hitting on 4's and wounding some on 4's and soem on 3's - with a 3 up save one wound communicated (chainsword felt like garbage even with the extra attack and the axe going to a 4+ wasn't instrumental). He then used 2 CP to interrupt between the "second zerker fight" and killed them all as spears have -4AP and even with 3 str on like 20 attacks in melee it didn't matter...
To be fair he's used 2cp for lightning reflexes and another 2 on counter with a very good cc unit. They can tear through stuff but you need to make sure what you charge you're gonna kill. Shouldn't you have been wounding on 3s with all your hits tho? Str5 and 6 against toughness 4?
The DA and EC do obviously help with rerolls. I prefer a lord to the apostle personally.
Sounds like you just rolled really poorly. You should have killed between 2-3 bikes on average dice in your first charge activation. That would have reduced incoming damage when your opponent interrupted too.
Berzerkers are perhaps the best ‘bully’ unit in the game. They absolutely annihilate anything against which they’re already the overdog. The instant they pick a fight with something that can tank a lot of AP-1 D1 and deal damage in return, or which has some really good overwatch, they may as well be a Tactical Squad.
The real utility of BFtBG is in getting a free 6” pile-in at the END of the fight phase. (@orkswubwub - your opponent didn’t need to use a stratagem to get their attacks in before BFtBG - it already has strikes last.) Firstly, this can be used to envelope a victim unit so the survivors cannot fall back. (Not always a tall order against a screen - you’ll often kill a lot of holes in a blob unit.) Secondly, you can try to execute your charge moves so that you’ll be able to use your 12” (!) of pile-ins to tag a load of units with horrific overwatch but rubbish melee (remember, you can’t ATTACK units you didn’t declare the charge against, but restrictions on who you MOVE within 1” of only applied in the charge phase). They can’t pile in and attack your T4 W1 3+ zerks this turn - it’s the END of the fight phase - and you’ve shut down their shooting with a unit that basically cost about as much as some Heretacs.
I suspect Renegade Zerks may be even better than World Eaters, as when they Warptime into the enemy +2D6” might be better than a potential +2A. As for delivery: be Alpha Legion, or else field several units in Rhinos with a support character in each. Maybe a Spartan party van - but if AP-5 mega guns are locally endemic, maybe not. (Unless you can get Delightful Agonies on it.) Warptime nerf has hit our drop pods hard, and if you already used them then your meta has probably adapted around you already with screening etc.
It is definitely great for those who have Chaos Knights, and its a smart move by GW as it opens up potentially more sales of their Dominus and Armiger kits from people who play Chaos in addition to those who play Imperial. Its a good move.
So as compared to Imperial Knights, we are back on parity of points, they have a *lot* more special rules and abilities, warlord traits, etc while we have maintained the superior flexibility of options on the Questor Knights. We also got the crusader buff, so we can run melee knights as efficiently as Imperials. The Warlord Trait seems good, ObSec on a Knight, and counts as 10 models is a great ability and helps your Knight claim an objective even from other Obsec troops. Rotate Ion Shields and Trail of Destruction are solid buffs as well. I feel that Imperial Knights will ultimately be more competitive with their selection of house traits, and much wider selection of relics. However its nice to see Renegade Knights get some sort of parity. Definitely makes me want to get building my knight and try him out in a detachment.
Ultimately however, I think the lack of keywords will spell the real doom of chaos knights. Especially compared to the Lord of Skulls which benefits so much from being able to be buffed.
the_Jakman wrote: Hey guys, quick opinion request here. Can you help me decide between these two options? I'm building an all infantry army including a battalion lead by Abby. The plan was to take maximum advantage of the Black Legion trait to get advancing assault plasma guns marching up the board, with reroll misses. But I'm thinking just taking more cultists might be better.
Spoiler:
Abby
5x CSM with combi-plas and plas 5x CSM with combi-plas and plas 24x Cultists with autoguns
10x Havocs with combi-plas and 4x plas
or
Abby
59x Cultists with autoguns
10x Havocs with combi-plas and 4x plas
The rest of my army includes,
Jump Sorc
Winged DP 20 Noise Marines (infiltrating)
10 Cultists
2x3 Oblits
Cheers heaps,
I'm assuming the rest of the army is Alpha Legion, since the Noise Marines are infiltrating?
The choice is between 30 Cultists and 10 CSMs. Given everything else in your list, I think you need bodies more than a few plasma shots a turn.
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Abaddon303 wrote: I mean a laspred should take about 7 wounds off an enemy predator. Is that better than tying that enemy predator up for a round of shooting? Okay, the helldrake can tie up more than one thing if you're fortunate with deployment.
I think I'd rather take the 7 wounds and let your opponent fire back at 4+.
How often is that Heldrake really going to be able to tie up a Predator on first turn? Most armies I face screen their big guns. It's a lot more likely that Heldrake is going to tie up 1 or 2 chaff units for a single turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
akaean wrote: It is definitely great for those who have Chaos Knights, and its a smart move by GW as it opens up potentially more sales of their Dominus and Armiger kits from people who play Chaos in addition to those who play Imperial. Its a good move.
So as compared to Imperial Knights, we are back on parity of points, they have a *lot* more special rules and abilities, warlord traits, etc while we have maintained the superior flexibility of options on the Questor Knights. We also got the crusader buff, so we can run melee knights as efficiently as Imperials. The Warlord Trait seems good, ObSec on a Knight, and counts as 10 models is a great ability and helps your Knight claim an objective even from other Obsec troops. Rotate Ion Shields and Trail of Destruction are solid buffs as well. I feel that Imperial Knights will ultimately be more competitive with their selection of house traits, and much wider selection of relics. However its nice to see Renegade Knights get some sort of parity. Definitely makes me want to get building my knight and try him out in a detachment.
This is good news, but it could have been great news.
I'm not complaining, this is an Index not a Codex and there's room for improvement. Some Marks of Chaos would have been nice.
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone tried a bunch of turkeys in a Slaanesh rushdown list? If half your Chaos Daemons are hitting the line turn one, that could get interesting. Especially if Fiends are preventing fall back.
Yes i do, but without the turkeys. I think they could be fun with a herald support (as i do with Lasherfiends) but i also think that 555 points is quite the big commitment for 3 T1 charges though. Maybe Skarbrand & 2 turkeys in order to 'crash and burn' any flyer units. Fiends i found
somehwat lackluster - especially since armies with lots of 'fly' units aren't exactly rare. Something hilarious though is a Possessed blob (15 is what i opted in for) with MoS, IoE, buffed with Prescience & the Masque in the same combat. Give their target the +1 to hit from the Masque
and suddenly the possessed are causing exploding DttfE dice against <Imperium> (on a 3 iirc, since its a +2 from the Masque and Prescience while being 5+ from IoE), add Locus of Grace-Stratagem put on the Masque for good measure and you gonna need a bucket for all the dice.
Very niche, but also exceptionally funny.
I'm not sure about the Turkeys though - maybe some H&R Hellhounds and some Hellflayers instead. Not quite as fast, but also S8 and D2 for the bladed axle - and overall just a ridiculous amount of attacks (9+D6 per model). Maybe running 3 Drakes with a Slaanesh Deamons DP,
add wings, Celerity of Slaanesh, Mark of Excess & he can somewhat keep up with the Turkeys (18-19" move on average while giving re-rolls of 1, Advance & Charge to guarantee charges for the Drakes, maybe add symphony of pain to deny any overwatch).. but 735 points for 4 T1 charges, dunno. Souns excessive.. so exactly what slaanesh wants.
Great changes. Re-rolling all misses is super strong for a shooty Knight and 2CP is a reasonable price. The warlord trait is great and the -ld relic is interesting. Chaos can stack a ridiculous amount of -ld now and have some tricks like Treason of Tzeentch and the Forbidden Gem that could make it worthwhile.
Loyalist Knights have better detachment rules, better wl traits, better relics, vastly more good strategems and access to endless supply of cp via allies, but this is free stuff for chaos, so eh
Not sure there will be room for renegade knights after the obligatory 6 daemon princes, but it does at least open more options, even if chaos has no real ways to support or buff their knights, unlike loyalists.
blackmage wrote: lack of any mark i guess will hurt a lot, but at least now they might be playable, but doubt they will find any place in any chaos list,
Besides the loyal equivalent, is Chaos Dominus close to the best super-heavy vehicle unit in the game?
However, lack of relics and traits left a gap between the two.
blackmage wrote: lack of any mark i guess will hurt a lot, but at least now they might be playable, but doubt they will find any place in any chaos list,
Besides the loyal equivalent, is Chaos Dominus close to the best super-heavy vehicle unit in the game?
However, lack of relics and traits left a gap between the two.
I'm debating this question with myself right now.
I think the answer is no. It's certainly very tough but I sense flaws.
Can't wait for the inevitable point reduction for Blood Slaughterers since a "melee" Armiger is 164 and the "shooting" one is 174 while a Blood Slaughterer remains 180. Come on FW / GW / whoever is running the 2018 Chapter Approved: drop the Slaughterer down to between 160 - 170. One Blood Slaughter should compete with an Armiger with whoever gets the jump getting the advantage.
I don't think the intention is to make a chaos RIK pure list be that great, but they have everything they need to be as/more effective allies now, with rotate ion shields, the new strat, and the ability to double up on the best weapon options.
I think the Dominus has serious competition from the Lord of Skulls. Lord of Skulls is a very good super heavy that gets better in CC as it takes more damage, it has a good combination of shooting and assault, and it has both the Heretec Astartes and Daemon keywords for syenergy with both CSM and Daemon codexes. Dominus Knight has the Volcano Cannon and a better Invulnerable Save vs ranged if you use Rotate Ion Shields (at 3 CP a pop). Lord of Skulls has access to much better internal synergy. Heretic Astartes psychic powers work on him. Here's to you Prescience and Warp Time. He is a Daemon Engine so he can use DAEMONFORGED which lets him re-roll all to hits and to wounds for a single CP... His 5++ doesn't go away in melee, it has infernal regeneration and can be healed by a warp smith. Finally, he has access to Warp Surge if your army includes a detachment of Daemons thanks to his Daemon keyword. Warp Surge being 2 CP as opposed to Rotate ion shields 3.
Ultimately, I think the Dominus Knight can be a better shooter with its Plasma and Volcano Lance. And its durability vs ranged is quite good- although will tank your CP. But the Lord of Skull's access to keywords I feel gives it a solid edge on a Dominus in the context of Chaos. If Chaos had access to something like Ion Bulwark it would be closer. The Dominus has a slight edge in terms of CP generation as its easier to fit into a super heavy detachment with a pair of armigers. however as a one off super heavy choice, you are better off with a Lord of Skulls or a FW Daemon Lord.
We had been talking about Scorpius' in this thread. Wanted to share an additional thought for anyone thinking about taking them: they are overwatch beasts, especially for Black Legion.
In a game against Blood Angels, I had a pretty big hole in my screens. A squad of Death Company and a squad of Sanguinary Guard dropped in. Abaddon was nearby.
The Death Company charged first, charging all 3. ~25 shots of overwatch (with the rerolls for Abaddon,) 8 hits, 6 wounds. They missed the charge. The Sanguinary Guard went next, ~18 shots of overwatch, 4 wounds, missed the charge.
The remaining models went down to bolter fire from 20 CSMs. Abaddon was pleased.
Admittedly, I rolled well for hits / wounds, but I rolled very poorly for the number of shots. The Blood Angels were charging into 18d3 shots from the multi-launchers. Had that gone better, both units probably would have been wiped.
blackmage wrote: lack of any mark i guess will hurt a lot, but at least now they might be playable, but doubt they will find any place in any chaos list,
Besides the loyal equivalent, is Chaos Dominus close to the best super-heavy vehicle unit in the game?
However, lack of relics and traits left a gap between the two.
lack of legion and/or mark is a gap too wide, loyal Ik has Kw imperium, renegade has not mean that can be boosted by auras and/or psy powers, for me mean<------- stay on the shelf, i take lord of skull if i would
blackmage wrote: lack of any mark i guess will hurt a lot, but at least now they might be playable, but doubt they will find any place in any chaos list,
Besides the loyal equivalent, is Chaos Dominus close to the best super-heavy vehicle unit in the game?
However, lack of relics and traits left a gap between the two.
lack of legion and/or mark is a gap too wide, loyal Ik has Kw imperium, renegade has not mean that can be boosted by auras and/or psy powers, for me mean<------- stay on the shelf, i take lord of skull if i would
Dominus is I agree not THAT good for Chaos...However, the standard knight shines now. Double gatling is hilarious now that it went down to 75 per gun, and for 2 cp you can reroll all 24 shots. All melee without a carapace gun is now highly considerable as well as a super harsh distraction
akaean wrote: Finally, he has access to Warp Surge if your army includes a detachment of Daemons thanks to his Daemon keyword. Warp Surge being 2 CP as opposed to Rotate ion shields 3.
You cannot Warp Surge your Lord of Skulls.
Spoiler:
Q: When a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Daemons uses the Daemon keyword, can it be used to affect any unit with the Daemon keyword, or only units with the Daemon Faction keyword?
A: These Stratagems can only affect units with the Daemon Faction keyword.
ah ha, You are right. I was looking at my codex and not the FAQ. I forgot they Errata'd the Lord of Skulls to lose Daemon from the Faction Key Word Line... and moved it to the keyword line.
Good lord. So it was legal, until they removed the keyword I needed. I also think its funny that they FAQ'd death guard to be able to use the Codex CSM Familiar Strategem or tide of traitors, but took away the ability of Oblits or the LoSkulls to use Warp Surge.
akaean wrote: ah ha,
You are right. I was looking at my codex and not the FAQ. I forgot they Errata'd the Lord of Skulls to lose Daemon from the Faction Key Word Line... and moved it to the keyword line.
Good lord. So it was legal, until they removed the keyword I needed. I also think its funny that they FAQ'd death guard to be able to use the Codex CSM Familiar Strategem or tide of traitors, but took away the ability of Oblits or the LoSkulls to use Warp Surge.
Good ol' games workshop.
For a single game I was able to deepstrike turn 1 my Lord of Skulls.
Dominus is I agree not THAT good for Chaos...However, the standard knight shines now. Double gatling is hilarious now that it went down to 75 per gun, and for 2 cp you can reroll all 24 shots. All melee without a carapace gun is now highly considerable as well as a super harsh distraction
yes then you find de/eldar with their -1/-2 to hit and (been there done that) your 400+Ik become useless also with re roll (which cost 2cp's and we dont have the farm cp imperial lists can have), you cant give it free re rolls with character auras, you cant use powers like prescience no warptime for melee Ik...is just cheaper nothing more, a double gatling costs now 469 before costed 548 about 80pts less but lacks any sinergy with any chaos list, 3cps for +1 save? Seriously?
Dominus is I agree not THAT good for Chaos...However, the standard knight shines now. Double gatling is hilarious now that it went down to 75 per gun, and for 2 cp you can reroll all 24 shots. All melee without a carapace gun is now highly considerable as well as a super harsh distraction
yes then you find de/eldar with their -1/-2 to hit and (been there done that) your 400+Ik become useless also with re roll (which cost 2cp's and we dont have the farm cp imperial lists can have), you cant give it free re rolls with character auras, you cant use powers like prescience no warptime for melee Ik...is just cheaper nothing more, a double gatling costs now 469 before costed 548 about 80pts less but lacks any sinergy with any chaos list, 3cps for +1 save? Seriously?
Here's a suprising feature: STATISTICS!
Let's say you're getting a -1. It will just happen the most often, which is good for finding the median situation. You fire all 24 shots, let's say you shoot at a Pheonix. Real big wounds, good toughness, and hard to hit. Good example.
24 shots (all rerolled) on a 4+ goes down to 12, rerolling the failures to net another 6 on average. 18 Shots, wounding on a 4+, going down to 9. Pheonix is rocking a 3+ save, -2 from the Gatling to a 5+. Saves a third of the wounds, leaving you with 6. That Pheonix is down to 4 wounds, and is all but useless now.
-1 to hit rarely means jack if you build right, and mass shots is A REALLY good way to negate that issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson-King2120 wrote: So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?
Eeeh...They give a lot of shots, but honestly unless you're using them specifically for the fact they can be troops in EC, don't bother. Usually I will still say go with it if there is something only slightly better, but there is FAR better options.
Crimson-King2120 wrote: So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?
Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.
It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?
Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.
But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.
For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.
Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.
But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.
Crimson-King2120 wrote: So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?
Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.
It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?
Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.
But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.
For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.
Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.
But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.
Umm, Chaos doesn't have access to any of those things. We have Noise Marines for that role. Comparing them to things in another army doesn't really tell you whether they are good in a CSM army. Comparing them to something else available to Chaos players is more helpful, but I'll let someone else do that. Instead, I'll talk about some of my experiences and thoughts with Noise Marines.
I played a squad of Alpha Legion Noise Marines at Adepticon in the Championships, Friendly, and Team tournaments, and they put in solid work in just about every game. I've run them in other smaller tournaments too, and they pretty much always do well. They have access to a number of good stratagems (Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War being two notable ones), and since they are Slaanesh marked they can benefit from the Delightful Agonies psychic power to increase their durability. They are amazing at clearing cheap chaff that are hiding in cover thanks to negating the benefit of cover with their sonic weapons, and the Blastmaster is, I think, straight up better than a Missile Launcher in most situations. Music of the Apocalypse is the icing on the cake for them, though. Firing when they die is amazing; basically the benefit of a loyalist Ancient without having to pay the points for an extra character, plus it always goes off rather than relying on rolling a 4+. If it happens in the Fight phase, they can shoot out of combat and even target a character thanks to the wording of the Character rule (they only can't be targeted in the Shooting phase), meaning you can pull off some cheeky tricks with them. TL;DR: Noise Marines are really good!
Hmm. I can see potential in letting your Blastmasters die in melee and sniping a support character 48” away. If you cast Prescience to super-charge EC and didn’t move in your last movement phase, and you’ve got IoE, then you’re getting DttFE on a roll of 4+... that’s worth a re-roll on your number of shots to try to get three when everything aligns right... and you can re-roll to wound off an Exalted Champion, to boot
...expect this to be FAQ’d away as soon as it crops up at a toundment
Crimson-King2120 wrote: So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?
Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.
It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?
Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.
But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.
For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.
Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.
But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.
Umm, Chaos doesn't have access to any of those things. We have Noise Marines for that role. Comparing them to things in another army doesn't really tell you whether they are good in a CSM army. Comparing them to something else available to Chaos players is more helpful, but I'll let someone else do that. Instead, I'll talk about some of my experiences and thoughts with Noise Marines.
I played a squad of Alpha Legion Noise Marines at Adepticon in the Championships, Friendly, and Team tournaments, and they put in solid work in just about every game. I've run them in other smaller tournaments too, and they pretty much always do well. They have access to a number of good stratagems (Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War being two notable ones), and since they are Slaanesh marked they can benefit from the Delightful Agonies psychic power to increase their durability. They are amazing at clearing cheap chaff that are hiding in cover thanks to negating the benefit of cover with their sonic weapons, and the Blastmaster is, I think, straight up better than a Missile Launcher in most situations. Music of the Apocalypse is the icing on the cake for them, though. Firing when they die is amazing; basically the benefit of a loyalist Ancient without having to pay the points for an extra character, plus it always goes off rather than relying on rolling a 4+. If it happens in the Fight phase, they can shoot out of combat and even target a character thanks to the wording of the Character rule (they only can't be targeted in the Shooting phase), meaning you can pull off some cheeky tricks with them. TL;DR: Noise Marines are really good!
What was your unit size for the noise marines? Did you infiltrate most games?
orkswubwub wrote: What was your unit size for the noise marines? Did you infiltrate most games?
I ran an 8-man unit in the Championships (all Sonic Blasters) and infiltrated them. In both of the other Adepticon events I entered, I ran a 10 man with 2 Blastmasters and 8 Sonic Blasters. I infiltrated them in the Champs, and I honestly don't remember what I did in the other events. Pretty sure I didn't infiltrate them in the Team event, because CP's were tight (my detachment only got us 1 CP because I ran 2 Obliterator squads).
Crimson-King2120 wrote: So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?
Totally. They're one of the best units in the game IMO. Emperors' Children having them as troops gives you loads of Stratagems to play with.
It's answers like this that make me feel like we need a uniform method of qualifying answers. When someone says they are the best, by what measure?
Noise Marines are great compared to CSMs. They have an extra attack, they get access to weapons with 4 times the shots, and they have a special trick where they can shoot one last time when they die. Points wise, they are about 1.3 times the cost of a CSM, which is great in comparison with other Cult Troops. They have a Stratagem that lets them shoot twice in a turn, which can be exciting.
But... Noise Marines are absolutely terrible in comparison with Deathwatch Veterans. For about the same points, you get access to special issue ammunition across a wide variety of weapons. For 1 point each, outfit a squad of 10 with Storm Bolters and you have better shooting than a Noise Marine at 15 inches. And you have special rules giving you buffs against specific types of units, which you don't get with Noise Marines. Not to mention you can build Veterans squads that allow you to fall back and shoot / charge.
For that matter, there's an argument to be made that Grey Knights Strike Squads outperform Noise Marines given their access psychic powers. Smite guarantees you mortal wounds against even the toughest units in the game whereas Sonic Blasters are just bolters that throw down a ton of shots. Strike Squads come with Storm Bolters, which means you get 4 shots at 12 inches just like Noise Marines. Also, each model costs less than a Noise Marine, they have better transport options, and they have a close combat weapon which you do not get with a Noise Marine. Plus they are immune to the beta rule about smite rolls.
Grey Knights are considered the worst army in the game and Strike Squads are their weakest unit. So one could say Noise Marines are worse than the weakest unit in the worst army in the entire game.
But they can be fun to play. I moved on from them a long time ago because Cultists provide cheap wounds and CSMs provide access to lascannons. I don't see many games won on mid-range firefights, which is what Noise Marines are made for.
Umm, Chaos doesn't have access to any of those things. We have Noise Marines for that role. Comparing them to things in another army doesn't really tell you whether they are good in a CSM army. Comparing them to something else available to Chaos players is more helpful, but I'll let someone else do that. Instead, I'll talk about some of my experiences and thoughts with Noise Marines.
I played a squad of Alpha Legion Noise Marines at Adepticon in the Championships, Friendly, and Team tournaments, and they put in solid work in just about every game. I've run them in other smaller tournaments too, and they pretty much always do well. They have access to a number of good stratagems (Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War being two notable ones), and since they are Slaanesh marked they can benefit from the Delightful Agonies psychic power to increase their durability. They are amazing at clearing cheap chaff that are hiding in cover thanks to negating the benefit of cover with their sonic weapons, and the Blastmaster is, I think, straight up better than a Missile Launcher in most situations. Music of the Apocalypse is the icing on the cake for them, though. Firing when they die is amazing; basically the benefit of a loyalist Ancient without having to pay the points for an extra character, plus it always goes off rather than relying on rolling a 4+. If it happens in the Fight phase, they can shoot out of combat and even target a character thanks to the wording of the Character rule (they only can't be targeted in the Shooting phase), meaning you can pull off some cheeky tricks with them. TL;DR: Noise Marines are really good!
Sorry if that was confusing.
I responded to the assertion Noise Marines are one of the best units in the game. I disagree and pointed at examples of similar units that arguably better (without getting into Xenos.) You're right, Veterans and Strike Squads are not Chaos, nor was that the point.
That's great that you get so much out of them. I used to put 2 squads in a Kharbydis Assault Claw and deep strike with Abaddon and a Chaos Sorcerer. I agree, they are great at clearing chaff. The problem was they die too easily, I would get one good round of shooting out of them before they got tied up or went down to return fire. MotA never made that much of a difference, even with 20 Noise Marines, because a Sonic Blaster is just a bolter with more shots. Don't remember ever wounding a character, but tried many times.
As far as the Blastmaster goes, you're right, it is about as powerful as a missile launcher. I favor lascannons myself for the damage and the range. I guess the problem I have with Blastmasters is the rest of the squad has to have bolters or Sonic Blasters, and these need to be in 24 inch range. You have to play them close, not stand back to force the enemy come to you.
Again, Noise Marines are a little fragile and their weapons are not that great. If it was AP -1 on Sonic Blasters or they had some additional cover mechanic, I'd be interested. But they're just not on par with a lot of other things in the game.
Deathwatch Vets and Noise Marines are both really good and fulfil slightly different roles. Vets are better within 12" but worse at 24", they don't have assault weapons, don't have access to EC and VotLW (but have 2CP +1 to wound), they have access to Mission Tactics but we have access to Legion Traits (AL and Renegades are both awesome for Noise Marines), and their psychic support is way way way worse than ours. They can deepstrike with their stratagem but this isn't as good with the beta rules. We can also take blobs of 20 to maximise stratagem and psychic buffs but you need to really build around that to make it work.
"Best unit in the game" is a bit hyperbolic for my taste but they are still really good and I think most Chaos lists can find a spot for them. Now that Knights are looking to be a meta-shifting gatekeeper army they will probably see less use, but they will rock the socks off any horde or MEQ heavy army.
Going back to the discussion regarding Scorpius', to me they seem slightly overcosted. The D2 isn't that useful for them against MEQ but they don't have the -AP and Str to take on light vehicles (except Drukhari). Given Drukhari is a tough match-up for some people maybe they are a good choice though. Good players should be able to tie them up fairly easily though, the example previously where the BA player charges all 3 of them is just stupid. They should have charged 1 and then piled into/consolidated into the rest of them.
I think the new renegade chaos knights index adds alot of options to regular chaos armies. Probably wouldn't be the best idea to run 3 knights (if you do you might as well play IK as a codex).
However, as a super heavy auxiliary detachment, it brings alot of options to the table. Look at the Gallant. For 350 points, you get a 24W T8 monster in close combat that is better than a LOS at full wounds. A lord of skulls is better but its nowhere near as cheap as a 350 point Gallant.
And for 1 cp, you can rotate ion shields on the Gallant to make it 4++. You can't do that with your LOS. World eaters armies just got a massive distraction carnefix which is not easy to kill.
And we get the armigers and the Dominus classes too. The Dominus classes are no joke. They are really good. The Castellan is now hands down the shootiest of our long ranged titan options compared to the LOS. It may have a place in a shooty CSM list since its not just shooty, in a pinch, it can do close combat as well. 4+ to hit may not be fantastic, but we are still talking about 12 hits with d3 damage for its titan feet.
And the Valiant is a very unique Dominus that is interesting to Chaos too. Consider it as a short ranged shooty version of a LOS. So, it might be great for a mid field type of army (maybe death guard). Its reach is definitely considered mid range and some lists are perfectly fine with that.
Consider the double Avenger gratling renegade knight with twin flamers. That thing is a monster at clearing clearing chaff, and a hard to kill one at that, because again you can spend 1 cp to make it 4++. Have that thing clear the chaff on turn 1 while your berserkers in Rhinos are still comfortably in their Rhinos charging up the field. Are they gonna ignore all your berserkers or are they going to kill off that renegade knight? (Want to shoot down a 24W T8 4++ model while the rest of my army is going to charge you next turn and all your chaff fodder is gone? be my guest!).
Armigers seem much better than hellbrutes to me. Far tougher with an invul save to boot. I can bring a superheavy detachment with 1 knight and 2 amigers and get 3cp. And the amigers can take the place of my hellbrutes and do a better job. All in all, I am really happy they dropped this faq.
I know you play Word Bearers (and my own army is painted as Word bearers, because Crimson Slaughter looked kinda boring); do you think it'll be worth it to play Word Bearers just for the Voice of Lorgar with multiple MSUCSM-squads with Heavy weapons dotted around the Battlefield? Also, have you tried a Slaanesh-Lord on Steed with Cursed Crozius? With Diabolic Strenght he'd be a Chaotic Version of Slamginius for ~100 pt.
edit:words
renegade IK's not got improved that's sure... but... i still not sure a 470pt Ik is worth, armigers are good in my opinion and i suppose we will see a lot on the table, i will try something as soon as i get my 3 armigers ready. I will try a Ik+2 armigers or 3 straight autocannon armigers
Having re-roll hits is nice too (although less important on a gallant).
I sort of like having a renegade castellan and just letting it re-roll hits for the whole game, but not having the relic plasma is REALLY a feels bad moment.
TBH I think I just use IK rules for a real knights army and just convert everything to look chaos-ey.
BA are basically world eaters let's be real here. And guardsmen? So ready to turn to chaos.
Feels bad to be using imperial rules (and to have someone roll death to the false emperor against you) but I don't think more than 1 knight is in any way going to be truly competitive for chaos with the lack of stratagems, relics, and warlord traits.
And because tbh, Magnus/Morty do a lot of what stabby knights do a lot better for not much more points. Plus (I believe) are more durable vs most things you care about with being -1 to hit (and of course the 3++ on Magnus and the FNP on Morty)
I know you play Word Bearers (and my own army is painted as Word bearers, because Crimson Slaughter looked kinda boring); do you think it'll be worth it to play Word Bearers just for the Voice of Lorgar with multiple MSUCSM-squads with Heavy weapons dotted around the Battlefield? Also, have you tried a Slaanesh-Lord on Steed with Cursed Crozius? With Diabolic Strenght he'd be a Chaotic Version of Slamginius for ~100 pt.
Main uses I've found for VoL - and it is a pretty good Warlord trait - are on a quartermaster CL shouting at rooftop Havocs (which I can see being adaptable to what you suggest), and a biker or steed lord or DP accompanying a mobile division. I personally tend to put it on my Nurgle DP as he's got the mobility and damage output to achieve most Tactical Objectives if I roll a 66, and can yell at my DG Drones.
Interesting idea with the Steedlord. I built mine with a Murder Sword, but I've got a few left over Steeds... might just give this a try.
I don't tend to collect around what present rules and meta are, but I wouldn't say a VoL firebase *alone* makes Word Bearers worth taking over, say, an Iron Warriors one that's a bit less spread out but fearless instead of ATSKNF, ignores cover, and has a DP with a 2+ save and regeneration. Like, in a mirror match, the IWs will still have the advantage.
Knight valiant seems like a good option in eldar heavy metas. With some sicarans and hellflamer toting whatevers you negate a lot of what makes them so stupid to play against
Lucius? nothing in particular. he wants to be in CC when his boys wants to be gunning fools down (with the added benefit of still being able to fight back pretty well when assaulted)
Noise boys?
Practically everything goes well with them. and they are pretty great troops. they may not be the most durable for the cost, especialyl with noise guns (AS THEY SHOULD!) but they have all-assault guns, so they can keep distance and outgun most troop-type in the game.
You got the FWFAQ rules sonic dread available with EC though, and its freaking awesome. especially that it's technically just a modifier on the helbrute dataslate rather than its own slate-so it CAN use fire frenzy
Sonic dread are pretty awesome. and the benefit from the trait too being a melee threat. their greatest value is in the fact they can shoot rather well AND punch rather well-without being too expensive.
A daemon engine or two can also be nice. having an outlet for the great daemonforge stratagem is always nice.
But honestly, your core should probably be noise boys and sonic dreads.
As for knights-I'm under the impression that currently-a chaos player should avoid knights.
Its an index army. index armies lose to codex armies-we already know that.
The reason is simple, chaos knights just don't match up to imp ones due to far less choices (even though the trait and relic are both nice), the utter lack of "chapter tactics" and a tiny stratagem pool.
You just CANT compete 1v1 with a renegade knight vs an imp one, and with knights, you quickly eat into your points.
When a codex with full options drops this might change-but trying to match imps one for one never works for us, we only win when we take the roads that the imps just don't have equivalents of.
When they have an equivalent, its almost always stocked with far more options, and if not, then at the very least far more options of what to combine it with.
blackmage wrote: chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.
Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.
blackmage wrote: chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.
I think the Helverins are worth taking even with no real support (outside of Skarbrand & The Masque, not really worth considering because Helverins aren't for CQC). The 60" is more or less their selling point, autocannons on
that range with D3 is pretty neat. But the point cost isn't really so outstanding imho. 176 pt. is more than the Sicaran hull (by 6, but still), a C-Beam Pred with Las-Sponsons is 1 pt. less. The Warglaive on the other hand profits
from being Chaos (the aformentioned 'buffers') - it's basically a Maulerfiend with a not-so-poop Magma-cutter, but without regen & no advance & charge possibility. Also, while unimported for many - the Conversion possibilities
on these guys - holy moly.
blackmage wrote: chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.
Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.
true but they move and shoot they are less "sensitive" to light fire, havocs and armiger have close roles but move and shoot is a plus in a dynamic game like wh40k, for example if you play maelstrom armiger are great instead of static havocs.
Dominus is I agree not THAT good for Chaos...However, the standard knight shines now. Double gatling is hilarious now that it went down to 75 per gun, and for 2 cp you can reroll all 24 shots. All melee without a carapace gun is now highly considerable as well as a super harsh distraction
yes then you find de/eldar with their -1/-2 to hit and (been there done that) your 400+Ik become useless also with re roll (which cost 2cp's and we dont have the farm cp imperial lists can have), you cant give it free re rolls with character auras, you cant use powers like prescience no warptime for melee Ik...is just cheaper nothing more, a double gatling costs now 469 before costed 548 about 80pts less but lacks any sinergy with any chaos list, 3cps for +1 save? Seriously?
Here's a suprising feature: STATISTICS!
Let's say you're getting a -1. It will just happen the most often, which is good for finding the median situation. You fire all 24 shots, let's say you shoot at a Pheonix. Real big wounds, good toughness, and hard to hit. Good example.
24 shots (all rerolled) on a 4+ goes down to 12, rerolling the failures to net another 6 on average. 18 Shots, wounding on a 4+, going down to 9. Pheonix is rocking a 3+ save, -2 from the Gatling to a 5+. Saves a third of the wounds, leaving you with 6. That Pheonix is down to 4 wounds, and is all but useless now.
-1 to hit rarely means jack if you build right, and mass shots is A REALLY good way to negate that issue.
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Crimson-King2120 wrote: So been out the game a while thinking about getting back in are noise marine based lists viable in 8th ?
Eeeh...They give a lot of shots, but honestly unless you're using them specifically for the fact they can be troops in EC, don't bother. Usually I will still say go with it if there is something only slightly better, but there is FAR better options.
I think it's worth noting that you are doing re-rolls to hit with negative modifiers incorrectly. Re-rolls happen before modifiers, so:
You get 24 shots
16 are 3+ and count as hits
You reroll the 8 dice that are 1s and 2s, getting 5.33 more hits, for a total of 21.33 hits.
Then you subtract 1 from your hits.
This makes your 3s into 2s, meaning they all miss. On average this will be 5.33 rolls of 3.
This makes your total hits 16, which is the normal amount you'd get with BS3+ and no negative modifiers.
It's probably worth remembering that -1 to hit effectively cancels out full re-rolls to hit for BS3+, and vice versa.
Then you do wounds 16 down to 8, 5.33 of which go through for 10.66 damage. This only gets it down one teir, which is still pretty good.
blackmage wrote: chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.
Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.
true but they move and shoot they are less "sensitive" to light fire, havocs and armiger have close roles but move and shoot is a plus in a dynamic game like wh40k, for example if you play maelstrom armiger are great instead of static havocs.
General 40k tourneys in the U.S. use ITC format, which is very fluid and requires killing and controlling in equal portions. I just feel like an Armiger with AC's will be taken for its kill potential; 4d3 shots at D3 each isn't that bad, even if they are AP -1. But a group of havocs (slanesh) can get up to 8 Lascannon shots a turn which is.... painful. Your right though, Armigers do take AT firepower to bring down, but they are only T7 with a 5++
blackmage wrote: chaos should stay stick to armiger, they are good for about 176pts, you can switch things like Dg outrider or spearhed with 3 of them.
Still very pricey though for what they do. I faced 6 Armigers in a tourney and they had the reroll 1's trait, and they still felt... underwhelming. The Autocannons are pretty cool, but they're only 12 wounds (that degrade) on a 5++... I dunno, I just feel like Slanesh Havocs are a far better investment if you want a ranged support unit.
true but they move and shoot they are less "sensitive" to light fire, havocs and armiger have close roles but move and shoot is a plus in a dynamic game like wh40k, for example if you play maelstrom armiger are great instead of static havocs.
You're also taking them for one of the same reasons you take the Predator: consistent Damage 3 in those Autocannons. Now that Jetbike Captain just needs to 1 less save to die, which is actually pretty crucial.
Hellwright
+ STW 5
+ self-heals
+ stronger axe (but not a great melee profile
+ can heal any DAEMON ENGINE regardless of LEGION edit: also Knights
+ gives +1A to HELLFORGED (mainly Contemptors & Leviathans?)
++ Can ride an Abeyant for +1W, +2M, decent short ranged extra gun, larger footprint, 5++; good synergy with joining a Helbrute stampede
? DARK MECHANICUS keyword, who knows where this is going
? very interesting MW pistol but can’t fire other guns at same time
Warpsmith
+++++ cheap
++ can take combi-weapon that synergises with his tentaguns
I really think a superheavy aux detachment with a renegade knight is really good. A dominus or normal renegade knight with a 4++ save is not a small thing. Outside of very few instances, there is not a lot of chances for CSM to get a 4++ save on something with so many wounds and yet be potentially so threatening.
And the meta may be changing because of the IK codex. Even if you don't bring knights, you have to factor facing IK armies, or other armies who do bring knight allies. What is CSM going to use against IK armies?
I keep really really wanting to like the Hellwright, but he's almost as many points as a flying Prince, and just can't carry the synergy for that cost.
His stupid aura and his repair ability conflict for some reason, so if he's using one, he's unable to use the other. Repairing also negates as his fancy guns you pay for. His fancy guns are all different types, so if you want to shoot the awesome soulburner pistol, you can't shoot the laser/melta/flamer stuff.
All in all, he's just a mess. If he was like 30-50 points cheaper, I'd give him a go as a secondary HQ, but his FW pricetag is just too high for what he can effectively bring.
Yeah, agreed. He's all over the place. More an example of slapping cool rules together than thinking about synergy and value (as with many of the FW units).
Eldenfirefly wrote:I really think a superheavy aux detachment with a renegade knight is really good. A dominus or normal renegade knight with a 4++ save is not a small thing. Outside of very few instances, there is not a lot of chances for CSM to get a 4++ save on something with so many wounds and yet be potentially so threatening.
And the meta may be changing because of the IK codex. Even if you don't bring knights, you have to factor facing IK armies, or other armies who do bring knight allies. What is CSM going to use against IK armies?
I use Zarakynel as my LoW. Overpriced but she attracts bullets with a 3++, T8, and 20 wounds.
What I use against Imperial Knights is my Defiler Speedrun. Since you can advance and charge if you are a Slaanesh Daemon next to a Slaanesh Daemon Character in a mono-Daemons detachment, I can get a defiler 16 + 4d6" up the board to charge a knight - combine with prescience and daemonforge (or death hex on the enemy if necessary), you get a can of knight-mulching Giant Enemy Crab goodness. Add a defiler scourge for extra giggles. And don't forget to blow smoke during your speedrun so the enemy is -1 to hit the Giant Enemy Crab that is rampaging into their lines from Turn 1 once you utterly krump the baddies.
McGibs wrote:I keep really really wanting to like the Hellwright, but he's almost as many points as a flying Prince, and just can't carry the synergy for that cost. His stupid aura and his repair ability conflict for some reason, so if he's using one, he's unable to use the other. Repairing also negates as his fancy guns you pay for. His fancy guns are all different types, so if you want to shoot the awesome soulburner pistol, you can't shoot the laser/melta/flamer stuff. All in all, he's just a mess. If he was like 30-50 points cheaper, I'd give him a go as a secondary HQ, but his FW pricetag is just too high for what he can effectively bring.
I view the Soulburner pistol as more of a Close Combat Weapon than a ranged one, since you can fire it in melee. There's also a few other reasons to use it too, but the Voidcutter is really the only weapon it's competing with. The Flamer has a very clear niche that the soulburner pistol nor the voidcutter compete with.
Plus he can heal Knights d3 hit points, which is amazing compared to the 1 that Imperials get.
But it's factored heavily into it's pointcosts, for a weapon that you'll MAYBE fire once. All the other weapons can fire at the same time, so they're not competing with each other at all. And the hellwright is really an HQ that wants to stand back at short/mid range and shoot/repair, not mix it up in melee.
Except when it repairs, it cant shoot. And the things it buffs, it can't repair.
Repairing knights is really the only thing I can see it being borderline useful for, but d3 healed wounds a turn for 180ish points isn't going to swing the game.
Reapiring knights is a non-factor though, because as I stated before-chaos players should currently avoid knights.
As long we don't have "knight tactics", our knights are generally just inferior to imp ones. we need to fight them by fielding the things they have no equivalent to, not by fielding things they can put a +1 version of on the table.
And yes, we can dual-wield knights with the same gun, and double gat is cool-but its almost dominus class pricetag, and it aint no dominus.
My biggest problem with Renegade Knights is the lack of synergy. People compare the Khorne Lord of Skulls to a Renegade Knight. Yes, the Knight is cheaper, but the LOS has better synergies (such as being able to be affected by psychic powers, getting rerolls from a Lord, etc.). I do want to try a Renegade Knight as GW at least made a token effort to make them good, but I don't think they'll be competitive. What would really be nice is if FW gave us our Daemon Knights back.
Can I get some honest thoughts on the c-beam cannon rapier battery? I'm worried about it giving up soulburst but still stiting at 5T and a 3+ (Maybe a 2+ if the battery can be half obscured) with 2 marines that function as characters, and even against blobs if the beam kills something you get 6 0 1 2d6 autohits which isn't shabby against the average 3T blob... The statline isn't great as mathematically against -1 or -2 to hit the connection is not reliable buuuut at the same time it is only a 70 point investment and you could float 3 of them quite easily to fill up a heavy support detach - or bring 2 and drop in a unit of oblits...
The lack of mobility is concerning but at 72 inch range you can sit one in each corner and give the opponent something to worry about, over 48 inches if it connects 3d3 damage is nothing to sneeze at?
P.S. best unit for dealing with plaguebearer spam? Is this just 40 slannesh cultists with presc and VoTLW?
C-beam isn't worth it on a normal table. If you stick it in the corner of the board you shouldn't be able to see that much with it because of LOS blocking terrain. Take lascannons instead.
Cultists and Berzerkers for dealing with Plaguebearers would be the best choice. WE zerkers will kill ~15 of them before they swing at you.
Given the range on it, if you've got enemy units within 7", you're probably already in a pretty rough situation
Being that shining spears move 44 inches quite easily with a farseer reroll for quicken plus 2d6 charge its not too hard to imagine - particularly as they also have a 6-12 inch range on their ranged weapons. To get soulburst they just have to be just under 51 inches away from my C-Beam - which isn't even possible to deny on all deployment maps frankly. Bubble wrapping is good but its easy to make a mistake when measuring the base size between every model in a blob sometimes (at least for me) - to fully deny the charge while spreading out by troop blob - particularly as I try to move to objectives beyond turn 1 (don't want my 210-235 point plague blob babysitting my 70 point c-beam), etc.
saint_red wrote: C-beam isn't worth it on a normal table. If you stick it in the corner of the board you shouldn't be able to see that much with it because of LOS blocking terrain. Take lascannons instead.
Cultists and Berzerkers for dealing with Plaguebearers would be the best choice. WE zerkers will kill ~15 of them before they swing at you.
then you find 30 Pb with a -2 to be hitted and zerkers have hard time dislodge them unless you have prescience and or some sort of re roll for them., 40 cultists i doubt can deal with 30 Pb they hit on 5+ wound on 4+ (with votlw) and i save twice and if needed i can save at 4+, maybe with multiple units you can but then you commit a bit too much resources to kill a single unit.
Yeah, even assuming optimal Zerker loadout (double chainsword) that's 4 attacks per Zerker per fight, for 8 in a combat phase.
8 attacks
4 hits
8/3 wounds
16/9 unsaved
32/27 past the FNP
Or, each Zerker kills slightly over one Plaguebearer. World Eaters helps with that, but then again, this assumed double chainswords. How often do you see that and not Chainaxes?
i play regularly N demons at tournaments, dont underestimate Pb durability i stopped anything with them, genestealers buffed by broodlord, zerkers, dp's, primarchs....
Thinking of a fun list which let's me use the models I want to.
It will have a Castellan, a Lord of Skulls and two Rhinos with berzerkers and two Dark Apostles, a cultist unit of 10. Wonder if it might work.
The Castellan will draw all the fire, use 3cp to rotate ion shields if need to in the first round. This lets the Lord of skulls and the berserker Rhinos to get up the field. There is enough shooting provided by the Castellan and the Lord of Skulls as well. I just can't give up trying to work a LOS into my list because I love the model.
Any chance of some help with a 2000pts competitive chaos list?
I've picked up sone bloat drones, Plagueburst and daemon princes. I also have a knight questor magnetised to run all options. Would like to know the most cut throat competitive list I can run with them, the focus being mainly on overloading the enmy with tough targets that can't be ignored.
Thoughts so far:
Death guard:
Daemon prince talons, plate
Daemon prince
3 x 10 poxwalkers
3 x bloat drones with plaguespitters
3 x Plagueburst crawlers with plaguespitters
Renegade knight with dual Gatling cannons and ironstorm launcher
Leaves me about 100pts under. Could add a gnarlmaw tree perhaps
Options: Could think about swapping princes to tzeentch, or running a Khorne one with the relic axe for some mad damage output. Could add sone helverins.
I'm all up for ideas on what makes a competitive chaos heavies list
I definitely think Chaos has it better than most armies when it comes to facing down Knights.
Veterans of the Long War is a great strategem for improving the effectiveness of our Anti Tank Guns and wounding t8 on 2s with Las Cannons or 3s with Missiles, Meltas, Blast Masters, etc.
Endless Cacophony pairs well with Veterans, and can make our damage dealers exceptionally devastating. Our highest damage unit is currently obliterators who can arrive from Reserves, making it impossible for the knight player to focus them off the board turn one.
Death Hex is an incredible power and completely shuts down the Rotate Ion Shield and Ion Bulwark shenanigans.
Even in close combat we have a lot of options to deal damage quickly. Defilers can use Daemonforge for a large number of re-rolls for their high strength attacks, and with Warp Time can usually seize the initiative and make sure it gets the charge. Even a Daemon Prince with Diabolic Strength can pop off a wounded Knight.
I think Knights are scary, but in truth Chaos have a lot of good tools to deal with them, and in many ways we are better off than the grand majority of armies. Let alone the ability to field large numbers of cheap and durable chaff that Knights are very inneficient at killing- like Cultists which respawn and Plague Bearers
If you throw Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War on one same unit, the unit work best on killing a titanic target is...40 Cultists?! They can bite up to avg 9 wounds from a Castellan. Before counting prescience and lord-reroll.
A weird conclusion.
Oh, and they still cannot wipe a 30 men plaguebearers unit, even with such buffs.
tokugawa wrote: If you throw Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War on one same unit, the unit work best on killing a titanic target is...40 Cultists?! They can bite up to avg 9 wounds from a Castellan. Before counting prescience and lord-reroll.
A weird conclusion.
Oh, and they still cannot wipe a 30 men plaguebearers unit, even with such buffs.
@Tokugawa I'm not sure about your math there on Cultists targeting a Knight. Assuming you get 40 of them within 12 inches with Auto Guns, and Rapid Fire them with full buffs and Veterans of the Long War, you should only expect to cleave roughly 7 wounds.
Prescience, Re-Roll 1s, Veterans of the Long War, Death Hex 40 Cultists: 80 shots x 0.777 accuracy x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 6.91 damage.
now compare this to something like Obliterators with the same buffs (assuming average rolls (s8, Ap2, d2) 12 shots x .977 accuracy x .666 wound x .666 saves x 2 damage = 10.37
So Obliteraters are cleaving an extra four wounds off the Knight, and will deal an expected 20 wounds on target through endless cacophony- of course Obliterators will fluctuate depending on their d3 rolls for fleshmetal weapons, but their generally lower AP makes them less reliant on Death Hex to deal good damage. Unlike Melta users who absolutely need Death Hex to get their shots to land home.
Melta Bikers (3 Bikers, 3 Combi Bolters, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta) Same Buffs and Death Hex 3 Melta Shots at 6 inches 3 shots x .9777 hits x .666 wound x 4.5 damage = 8.75 12 bolters x .977 hits x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 1.29 total for bikers = 10.04
4 Las Cannon Havocs 4 shots x .9777 hits x .8333 wounds x .8333 saves x 3.5 damage = 9.4 damage
Endless Cacophony for any of these units doubles the damage, because they shoot again. Obliterators are the best because they can operate from a bit longer range, and are less dependent on Death Hex compared to Las Cannon Havocs and Melta Bikers.
Worth noting that Las Havocs are the only one of these that’s likely to be used T1
I mean you *can* Warptime the bikers into position, but it’s a small target for our Big Scary Spell and also possibly exposes the caster to DTW
Plus, I’m really liking this Defiler idea for T1 WT. That’s going to chin the bugger, and drop a scary DISTRACTION CARNIFEX on the enemy. Since it’s a play that requires MoS, Delightful Agonies will be a good choice for it, too; -1 to be hit and 5+++ is going to really put the pressure on
...makes me consider giving it the twin Heavy Flamers. More of a TAC build, and if there’s the firepower elsewhere, the Claws alone could be enough?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, a combi-weapon might be an idea. Something to fire after WTing into the enemy’s face
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait, it’s popping smoke, forget combi-weapons
akaean wrote: @Tokugawa
I'm not sure about your math there on Cultists targeting a Knight.
Assuming you get 40 of them within 12 inches with Auto Guns, and Rapid Fire them with full buffs and Veterans of the Long War, you should only expect to cleave roughly 7 wounds.
Prescience, Re-Roll 1s, Veterans of the Long War, Death Hex
40 Cultists:
80 shots x 0.777 accuracy x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 6.91 damage.
now compare this to something like Obliterators with the same buffs (assuming average rolls (s8, Ap2, d2)
12 shots x .977 accuracy x .666 wound x .666 saves x 2 damage = 10.37
So Obliteraters are cleaving an extra four wounds off the Knight, and will deal an expected 20 wounds on target through endless cacophony- of course Obliterators will fluctuate depending on their d3 rolls for fleshmetal weapons, but their generally lower AP makes them less reliant on Death Hex to deal good damage. Unlike Melta users who absolutely need Death Hex to get their shots to land home.
Melta Bikers (3 Bikers, 3 Combi Bolters, 2 Meltas, Combi Melta) Same Buffs and Death Hex
3 Melta Shots at 6 inches
3 shots x .9777 hits x .666 wound x 4.5 damage = 8.75
12 bolters x .977 hits x .333 wound x .333 saves x 1 damage = 1.29
total for bikers = 10.04
4 Las Cannon Havocs
4 shots x .9777 hits x .8333 wounds x .8333 saves x 3.5 damage = 9.4 damage
Endless Cacophony for any of these units doubles the damage, because they shoot again. Obliterators are the best because they can operate from a bit longer range, and are less dependent on Death Hex compared to Las Cannon Havocs and Melta Bikers.
What difference would Death Hex make for the Cultists? They have AP- weapons, so a Knight would get its 3+ armour save. Wouldn't it only matter for Obliterators and Havocs? Are we factoring this for points invested?
Sure, 40 Cultists is 160 points the Oblits are 195 The Bikers are 122 The Havocs are 165
So the Bikers are by far the most cost effective. I included Death Hex because it is one of our best powers for dealing with Knights, and if we can get it off (such as with a +1 from Ahriman and possible command point use), it opens up a lot of options to focus down and KO a knight. Death Hex does nothing for the cultists, but its an important tool when considering chaos answers to Knights, so I wanted to make sure it was included.
Obliterators are less dependent on Death Hex than other units, due to their generally lower AP. Assuming No Death Hex, and The Knight Roates Ion Shields to a 4++, the Obliterators will be about equal to the cultists. Also worth noting about the Obliterators is that you definitely want to save a CP for the damage, as that is their most important random stat for these types of things. Las Cannon Havocs will drop to 7.0 Bikers drop to 5.7
This is assuming a 4++ Knight. Against a 3++ Knight its either mass cultists or Death Hex as above. However even against a 4++ Knight the Havocs are doing the same damage from much longer range, and have larger upside when paired with Death Hex.
what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.
blackmage wrote: what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.
Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.
As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.
blackmage wrote: what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.
Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.
As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.
For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.
blackmage wrote: what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.
Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.
As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.
For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.
but im not going to play a pure renegade list, just a superheavy detach with nurgle demon battalion+Ts supreme command, i just would like to switch my Dg outrider (3 drones+Dp) with double gatling Ik+armiger+armiger, im thinking about double cannon im not attracted by a model with ab 3+ and a weapon with d3 shots, im looking to improve match up against armies like De.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think there's merit behind the Autocannon Armigers. Predators are limited in Rule of Three and, if that stays, Armigers are an excellent substitute.
and armigers have +1 wound tsi 5++ move 14" no penalty to fire heavy weapons and moving and cost less, can deal some damage in CaC, not comparable. In any case rule of 3 will remain is not a beta, they wont delete it, 100% sure.
seems fun 
My whole army moves 12" minimum, adding a footslogger just feels like poor saturation.
