Yup. It does make perfect sense. Whatever you buy from forgeworld they are probably just ordering it to be delivered for you. Unless you allow them to mark up those outrageous prices even more so that they can earn something...

 labmouse42 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'll never understand stores that do this.

Think like a store owner.
Someone is using models they did not buy from your store to give themselves a competitive advantage over the people who did buy their stuff at their store.
It makes business sense to not allow FW at your FLGs. It does not encourage people to use FW models, meaning people are more likely to give you money than FW.

You might disagree with this logic -- but as a business owner it can make perfect sense.

By this logic if I bring an army to the store I had purchased from an online retailer such as FrontlineGaming, it would mean I am not welcomed to play at the local store. That is certainly short sighted of any business as it would mean I'll just go to another store to purchase hobby accessories such as paints which have higher turnover lifespan than models. Furthermore I would discourage anyone from attending said store for that reason.

Anyway, let's get back to talking about tactics.

What's our answer to mass flyer armies? Like 3 storm ravens or 6 vendettas armies? Just mass flying DPs?

I had one game against the 3 storm raven list where I used 10 termis all with combi melta with Abbadon. Had some success. All the storm ravens died in the end. But he still won because it was relic, and his shooting killed all the terminators and Abaddon and I had nothing else that could snatch back the Relic from his Mephiston. :(

So, I suppose one solution could be to have terminators with combi meltas with Abbadon in support.


When I tried out another list with two flying DPs and a greater unclean one (with some shooting) against the same triple Storm Raven list I didn't have as much success. His Storm ravens focused and took down the two flying DPs and the GUO couldn't attack them. After that, they could fly around and shoot everything with impunity.

Possibly greater daemons that can fly instead of the guo? Heldrakes are a poor tool for anti air because flying units can disengage and shoot..

Fan67 wrote:

stewe128 wrote:
How's Skarbrand I'm going to be getting him soon in a lot and was curious if he's worth it.

Well... if you are up to playing 1000 points game and below, playing on 2x2 foot table and your opponent lacks lascannon bits, he is beast then.

 luke1705 wrote:

I mean....like I don't really do flyers but I'm about ready to do 1 of each of these bad boys. They look SICK

Be careful, they are pain PAIN to build up.
Buy some greenstuff and prepare hairdryer and a pot of hot water.

Just in case.

It may be easier (and cheaper!) to convert a stormraven instead

Debilitate wrote:
Possibly greater daemons that can fly instead of the guo? Heldrakes are a poor tool for anti air because flying units can disengage and shoot..

Well, 4 attacks hitting on 2s at S7 AP-2 Dd3 can hurt depending on the flyer. SM flyers won't be too bothered but Ork, Eldar and Tau flyers will be a bit concerned.

But for the most part, your right, Bloodthirsters and their equivilent are the way to go: 7x S11 AP-4 Dd6 hitting on 2s? (Remember to have a DP tag teaming with him so he's re-rolling 1s)

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Here's my big question:

After 20 or so pages of discussion, has any consensus been reached as to whether Chaos Space Marines is an army worth playing in 8th Edition? Is it competitive on the tabletop with the right builds and tactics? Is the IA book a must-buy for playing CSM like it was before the Traitor Legion books?

Depends on your definition of a CSM army.
I don't think taking huge amounts of guys in 3+ Armor is useful. There are some solid csm choices but for competitive games it makes more sense to look at the whole chaos faction to build an army.

3rdlegion wrote:
By this logic if I bring an army to the store I had purchased from an online retailer such as FrontlineGaming, it would mean I am not welcomed to play at the local store. That is certainly short sighted of any business as it would mean I'll just go to another store to purchase hobby accessories such as paints which have higher turnover lifespan than models. Furthermore I would discourage anyone from attending said store for that reason.

You completely missed the point.
You can buy the non-FW models at the FLGS. If you opponent has models that trounce you, you might want to buy them -- and conveniently enough they are on the shelf. FW models are not.

Some people, like yourself will boycott a store because they do not allow FW. That is completely acceptable. A business owner makes the decisions to the best of their ability (usually).

 labmouse42 wrote:
Think like a store owner.
Someone is using models they did not buy from your store to give themselves a competitive advantage over the people who did buy their stuff at their store.
It makes business sense to not allow FW at your FLGs. It does not encourage people to use FW models, meaning people are more likely to give you money than FW.

You might disagree with this logic -- but as a business owner it can make perfect sense.

If I have models bought from an online retailer, it means I cannot play at the FLGS. According to you, it doesn't need to be FW models. It just needs to be any models bought elsewhere FW or otherwise.

 labmouse42 wrote:

3rdlegion wrote:
By this logic if I bring an army to the store I had purchased from an online retailer such as FrontlineGaming, it would mean I am not welcomed to play at the local store. That is certainly short sighted of any business as it would mean I'll just go to another store to purchase hobby accessories such as paints which have higher turnover lifespan than models. Furthermore I would discourage anyone from attending said store for that reason.

You completely missed the point.
You can buy the non-FW models at the FLGS. If you opponent has models that trounce you, you might want to buy them -- and conveniently enough they are on the shelf. FW models are not.

Some people, like yourself will boycott a store because they do not allow FW. That is completely acceptable. A business owner makes the decisions to the best of their ability (usually).

Incorrect. I will boycott a store that does not allow me to use models purchased elsewhere. FW models or otherwise.

Revenue to FW is revenue to GW. This means the FLGS continues to make money indirectly because if GW does well, the FLGS can continue to sell GW products. If GW folds, the FLGS will loose one of their main sources of income.

FW are Citadel brand minatures, with GW produced rules for Warhammer 40k, and supported in their entirety. Any argument of not allowing them at a store is completely asinine.

Allowing them at a TOURNAMENT is an entirely different matter, but the model has absolutely every right to exist and a store allowing otherwise deserves their lack of business as a result.

Alright, alright, I'm sorry I brought it up. I personally think it's a stupid decision from both a business and gameplay stance but that is my personal opinion.

In a local tournament saturday I am going to take an Assault Claw with a Contemptor and drop in a Jump Pack Sorc behind him to Warptime him directly into the enemy lines with another Lord nearby for rerolls of 1. I feel this is a very strong assault and am thinking about some Khorne Terminators to assist in the shooting output and assaulting. I feel like I will be able to greatly wound a super heavy or smash through bubble wrap or disrupt a gunline pretty easily. My only concern is my internal struggle now that I have decided to drop in a Sorc to Warptime the Contemptor. I could do the same thing with 15-20 Berzerkers and MASSIVELY disrupt a huge portion of the board, stopping tanks from shooting while eliminating infantry units. Anything outside of lots of anti-assault or multiple super heavies will be tied down or dead by this.

Against big things the Contemptor will rip it to shreds, against smaller things the Berzerkers will RIP AND TEAR them to shreds. I think I'm going to go with the Berzerkers because I already have a Deamon Prince and Juggerlord for bigger things, and Kharn will fit in somewhere, plus maybe if I can shove Zhufor in there somewhere he can work. Most of the time when I deep strike I am right in front of chaff units anyways, most players are good about not allowing me to get to their big stuff and the Contemptor will flounder in this regard unless I Warptime it and give it two Heavy Flamers, and even then it might still whiff and not be allowed to get to the bigger monster/titan. I'd much rather have a fookin huge blob suddenly appear right in front of my opponent , get right in their face while spreading out, assault and spread out even more, tag everything I can, and make my two fight phases before they can even do anything (moving 3 before attacking, 3 after attacking, 3 before attacking, and 3 after attacking). The damage output for this against your average chaff unit it...impressive to say the least, moreso if your champ has a special weapon like a Power Fist or Power Axe.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Alright, alright, I'm sorry I brought it up. I personally think it's a stupid decision from both a business and gameplay stance but that is my personal opinion.

In a local tournament saturday I am going to take an Assault Claw with a Contemptor and drop in a Jump Pack Sorc behind him to Warptime him directly into the enemy lines with another Lord nearby for rerolls of 1. I feel this is a very strong assault and am thinking about some Khorne Terminators to assist in the shooting output and assaulting. I feel like I will be able to greatly wound a super heavy or smash through bubble wrap or disrupt a gunline pretty easily. My only concern is my internal struggle now that I have decided to drop in a Sorc to Warptime the Contemptor. I could do the same thing with 15-20 Berzerkers and MASSIVELY disrupt a huge portion of the board, stopping tanks from shooting while eliminating infantry units. Anything outside of lots of anti-assault or multiple super heavies will be tied down or dead by this.

Against big things the Contemptor will rip it to shreds, against smaller things the Berzerkers will RIP AND TEAR them to shreds. I think I'm going to go with the Berzerkers because I already have a Deamon Prince and Juggerlord for bigger things, and Kharn will fit in somewhere, plus maybe if I can shove Zhufor in there somewhere he can work. Most of the time when I deep strike I am right in front of chaff units anyways, most players are good about not allowing me to get to their big stuff and the Contemptor will flounder in this regard unless I Warptime it and give it two Heavy Flamers, and even then it might still whiff and not be allowed to get to the bigger monster/titan. I'd much rather have a fookin huge blob suddenly appear right in front of my opponent , get right in their face while spreading out, assault and spread out even more, tag everything I can, and make my two fight phases before they can even do anything (moving 3 before attacking, 3 after attacking, 3 before attacking, and 3 after attacking). The damage output for this against your average chaff unit it...impressive to say the least, moreso if your champ has a special weapon like a Power Fist or Power Axe.

I second Berzerker Hordes, last week I charged 20 of them into two 30 man Ork Boy blobs and, unfortunetly for the Ork player, he lacked any Boyz at the end of that combat. Plus I then piled into his Warboss and surrounded it so that he couldn't shoot my horde that turn as he couldn't back out of combat. Hmmm, how many points is the Assault Claw + 18 Berzerkers + Sorceror + Kharn? Wonder if it would be efficient to take multiple Pods filled with Zerkers, even without the warptime they have the Icon of Wrath which gives them just below a 50% chance of a charge from deep strike.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Alright, alright, I'm sorry I brought it up. I personally think it's a stupid decision from both a business and gameplay stance but that is my personal opinion.

In a local tournament saturday I am going to take an Assault Claw with a Contemptor and drop in a Jump Pack Sorc behind him to Warptime him directly into the enemy lines with another Lord nearby for rerolls of 1. I feel this is a very strong assault and am thinking about some Khorne Terminators to assist in the shooting output and assaulting. I feel like I will be able to greatly wound a super heavy or smash through bubble wrap or disrupt a gunline pretty easily. My only concern is my internal struggle now that I have decided to drop in a Sorc to Warptime the Contemptor. I could do the same thing with 15-20 Berzerkers and MASSIVELY disrupt a huge portion of the board, stopping tanks from shooting while eliminating infantry units. Anything outside of lots of anti-assault or multiple super heavies will be tied down or dead by this.

Against big things the Contemptor will rip it to shreds, against smaller things the Berzerkers will RIP AND TEAR them to shreds. I think I'm going to go with the Berzerkers because I already have a Deamon Prince and Juggerlord for bigger things, and Kharn will fit in somewhere, plus maybe if I can shove Zhufor in there somewhere he can work. Most of the time when I deep strike I am right in front of chaff units anyways, most players are good about not allowing me to get to their big stuff and the Contemptor will flounder in this regard unless I Warptime it and give it two Heavy Flamers, and even then it might still whiff and not be allowed to get to the bigger monster/titan. I'd much rather have a fookin huge blob suddenly appear right in front of my opponent , get right in their face while spreading out, assault and spread out even more, tag everything I can, and make my two fight phases before they can even do anything (moving 3 before attacking, 3 after attacking, 3 before attacking, and 3 after attacking). The damage output for this against your average chaff unit it...impressive to say the least, moreso if your champ has a special weapon like a Power Fist or Power Axe.

I second Berzerker Hordes, last week I charged 20 of them into two 30 man Ork Boy blobs and, unfortunetly for the Ork player, he lacked any Boyz at the end of that combat. Plus I then piled into his Warboss and surrounded it so that he couldn't shoot my horde that turn as he couldn't back out of combat. Hmmm, how many points is the Assault Claw + 18 Berzerkers + Sorceror + Kharn? Wonder if it would be efficient to take multiple Pods filled with Zerkers, even without the warptime they have the Icon of Wrath which gives them just below a 50% chance of a charge from deep strike.

There's no reason to shove Kharn in there, he will just fail his 9 inch charge and the horde will leave him in the dust. If they continue to move forward killing everything in sight, which they should, Kharn will never catch up. His only chance is to hop back into the Assault Claw and have it take him closer, but then you are sacrificing your Assault Claw's charge (which, to be fair, it might also not make).

OH ALSO SORCERERS CANNOT TAKE WORLD EATERS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TAKE MARK OF KHORNE!

 andysonic1 wrote:
There's no reason to shove Kharn in there, he will just fail his 9 inch charge and the horde will leave him in the dust. If they continue to move forward killing everything in sight, which they should, Kharn will never catch up. His only chance is to hop back into the Assault Claw and have it take him closer, but then you are sacrificing your Assault Claw's charge (which, to be fair, it might also not make).

OH ALSO SORCERERS CANNOT TAKE WORLD EATERS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TAKE MARK OF KHORNE!

Aye, forgot about that. Still, that puts Kharn just outside the enemy deployment turn 1 rather than getting there turn 2+.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
There's no reason to shove Kharn in there, he will just fail his 9 inch charge and the horde will leave him in the dust. If they continue to move forward killing everything in sight, which they should, Kharn will never catch up. His only chance is to hop back into the Assault Claw and have it take him closer, but then you are sacrificing your Assault Claw's charge (which, to be fair, it might also not make).

OH ALSO SORCERERS CANNOT TAKE WORLD EATERS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TAKE MARK OF KHORNE!

Aye, forgot about that. Still, that puts Kharn just outside the enemy deployment turn 1 rather than getting there turn 2+.

Look, MrHappyFace-kun, I love Kharn just as much as you do, but I think we both know that he isn't worth his points right now. No amount of tactics is going to change the fact that he is just too much of a glass cannon for the same points as a Juggerlord with a Power Fist and a Combi-Melta. Maybe the Chaos Codex coming out will give Khorne or World Eaters something beneficial or a stratagem or two, but until then Kharn is overshadowed by other, tougher, and similarly powerful units. Hell, a Deamon Prince of Khorne with double claws is even more killy for only 7 more points, while being far tougher with more wounds and more movement. Kharn is just...in a really bad place in the meta right now, like usual. If he was a bunch points cheaper he would be perfect, but I think he's costed around future rules and not current rules.

 andysonic1 wrote:
Look, MrHappyFace-kun, I love Kharn just as much as you do, but I think we both know that he isn't worth his points right now. No amount of tactics is going to change the fact that he is just too much of a glass cannon for the same points as a Juggerlord with a Power Fist and a Combi-Melta. Maybe the Chaos Codex coming out will give Khorne or World Eaters something beneficial or a stratagem or two, but until then Kharn is overshadowed by other, tougher, and similarly powerful units. Hell, a Deamon Prince of Khorne with double claws is even more killy for only 7 more points, while being far tougher with more wounds and more movement. Kharn is just...in a really bad place in the meta right now, like usual. If he was a bunch points cheaper he would be perfect, but I think he's costed around future rules and not current rules.

I know what you mean, I was very dissappointed to find that, despite Kharn getting 12 attacks (which is nice!), he is no longer S7 and lacks any equivilent to Armourbane; meaning he bounces off of Dreadnoughts when he should be able to one man army titans. This is Kharn for gods sake! There shouldn't be a unit in the game that can survive his charge!

Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Just make him S8 already with a FnP(5+)! He's Kharn for gods sake! Not some namby pamby Dante!

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

 Rydria wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Which is rather odd for a character who LITERALLY CAN'T DIE! Come on GW, give Slaanesh some love (if you know what I mean).

I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Damn Tzeentch Tricksters! *shakes fist*

 mrhappyface wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Damn Tzeentch Tricksters! *shakes fist*

Same here. Damn, I would gladly go mono-Slaanesh but they have been terrible for years. I am picturing a full army of Noise she-marines using the Juan Diaz heads version. That would be scary expensive though.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Which is rather odd for a character who LITERALLY CAN'T DIE! Come on GW, give Slaanesh some love (if you know what I mean).

he could easily be the chaos guy that returns like celestine does... or even better if he gets killed by a common infantry model he can come back at 4+, with d6 wound and killing the "killer" infantry model. If he is killed by a character, at the end of the game, on a 3+ the killer counts as being destroyed for victory points. Because he mutates INTO you to come back!

 Neferhet wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Lore Kharn: shrugs off getting impaled by Land Raider spikes, solo kills titans, survives the siege of terra by coming back to life, killed a bunch of his own guys once when he got mad.

Game Kharn: kills a bunch of his own guys by accident all the time, as tough as a normal chaos lord, can't solo kill titans or dreads, upstaged by other melee focused units in nearly every category.

i cry erytme

Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Which is rather odd for a character who LITERALLY CAN'T DIE! Come on GW, give Slaanesh some love (if you know what I mean).

he could easily be the chaos guy that returns like celestine does... or even better if he gets killed by a common infantry model he can come back at 4+, with d6 wound and killing the "killer" infantry model. If he is killed by a character, at the end of the game, on a 3+ the killer counts as being destroyed for victory points. Because he mutates INTO you to come back!

God I wish this were the case.

 ochobits wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
I'd join in with the doom and gloom but Magnus and Ahriman are both really good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Damn Tzeentch Tricksters! *shakes fist*

Same here. Damn, I would gladly go mono-Slaanesh but they have been terrible for years. I am picturing a full army of Noise she-marines using the Juan Diaz heads version. That would be scary expensive though.

Noise Marines and Seekers seem pretty good this edition, though I don't have any personal experience to confirm that with.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I'll never understand stores that do this.

Think like a store owner.
Someone is using models they did not buy from your store to give themselves a competitive advantage over the people who did buy their stuff at their store.
It makes business sense to not allow FW at your FLGs. It does not encourage people to use FW models, meaning people are more likely to give you money than FW.

You might disagree with this logic -- but as a business owner it can make perfect sense.

Furthermore, In my 5 or so years of gaming so far I've only seen TWO people with actual Forgeworld books to present rules. Every other time I've seen/played against FW units, its some screen shot on a cell phone off Google Images.

Asking to check the rules/abilities of the Unit in question comes with a groan, an internet search, a massive zoom in on tiny print, and usually, an incorrect interpretation of the rules. Ill play against anything and anyone, but more often than not by giving my opponent benefit of the doubt, I find out later, on my own research, they were playing it incorrectly.

The problem I have with many of the anti-Forgeworld availability arguments is that those arguments would also apply to out-of-production old figures and/or figures that have gone to webstore exclusive status. Are we going to ban all Dark Vengeance figures because that starter set has been replaced?

Also, a lot of the availability issues vanish if you become more accepting of alternate models. The giant Forgeworld super-dragon becomes a lot more affordable if I'm allowed to use a Reaper Bones dragon to represent it.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
The problem I have with many of the anti-Forgeworld availability arguments is that those arguments would also apply to out-of-production old figures and/or figures that have gone to webstore exclusive status. Are we going to ban all Dark Vengeance figures because that starter set has been replaced?

Also, a lot of the availability issues vanish if you become more accepting of alternate models. The giant Forgeworld super-dragon becomes a lot more affordable if I'm allowed to use a Reaper Bones dragon to represent it.

It just goes to show that so many people are buying from online retailers, which brick and mortar stores really can't compete with since they need to pay rent, whereas online retailers don't.

Something that I've found helpful that brings money in for the store is tournament style events/leagues. Pay to play, but you get store credit as prize support. Helps the store move inventory/make money from the players, and a lot of people love the competition, especially if prize support isn't based entirely around winning.

Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

Looking through the entire CSM codex didn't turn out a single hero (not even Abaddon) with that kind of utility. But then I discovered that Kharn's aura, while short, does give that crucial reroll. And he is himself deadly in close combat. Thus, now I put him in beside big shooty war machines like my gigantic Khorn Lord of Skulls and a Land Raider.

I also tried him out as the centre of a firebase made up of two Lascannon, heavy bolter Predator tanks (fully ouyfiitted with havoc launchers and additional combi weapon). With a huge Defiler behind, also equipped with twin lascannon and combi weapon.

Suddenly, a Defiler who can reroll its battlecannon and twin lascannon is a deadly ranged attacker. And you wouldn't believe how deadly two predator tanks with the works who can reroll their hit rolls can be. He managed to drop a death company or was it Saguirnary guard within 9.1 inch of my firebase but they failed their charge. Next turn, after all the firing, the defiler and Kharn both charged in. Not much left to clean up after that.

So, Kharn has surprising utility if you get creative with how you use him. He isn't so good at buffing big 10 or 20 man units. If you want to make your zerkers better with an aura, take a dark apostle, much cheaper. Kharn is good at making warmachines shoot even better because of the rerolls. And the synergy is great because the warmachines themselves also protect Kharn from being shot at.

So, put him in a firebase like I did and suddenly you can use a shooty defiler again! I suppose I could have put him in the exact centre of a square formation 4X predator tank and that fire base would have been ridiculous. But I don't have so many predator tanks right now. lol Might be interesting to try lol.

Or put him in between a Lord of skulls and a land raider. When the opponent faces a Hades Gratling cannon firing 12 shots with rerolls ... Its all because of Kharn. hehe. (ps, I am just glad that my LOS, defiler, LR, predator tanks which I spent months assembling and painting are now suddenly useful in the battlefield again. They spent so much time gathering dust as mere display pieces. So happy).

Ok, I inadvertently started the debate, and for that I apologize, but let me say that the store owner, in my situation, didn't ban FW for sales reasons. In fact, he offered to order FW items for those who wanted it, but explained that he doesn't get a discount and can't extend one to customers.

During the infancy of our 40k community, FW was seen as OP, and due to the prices it was feared by many that those that did bring FW would hold serious advantage over those who didn't. Either by OP units or by fielding units no one ever saw before. So some of the players went to the owner and asked for the restriction. Obviously, most of us here know that FW being all OP all the time is nonsense. Though now with many people having larger armies or having been used to dealing super heavies in previous editions it may be possible to lift the restriction. Though I've tried before and most people still stubbornly clinging to the rule for no real reason, but are ok with buying FW rhino doors, Dread arms, shoulder pads, etc.


As far as models bought from places other than the store, the owner doesn't care. We had a WAAC guy for a while that only spent money on tournament/leage entry. He was a douche that bragged about his ebay finds and how he never pays full price for models, but the owner bit his tongue and let him play.

well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

I do like Kharn for the re-rolls, but the basic chaos lord for 99 points less will still let you do re-rolls of 1, which is almost as good, and his aura is a lot larger. I've been using that to great effect.

I don't want to inadvertently add fuel to any fires going around here, but I just want to ask, what would be the best competitive list moving forward in a metagame without any FW pieces? So imagine all GDub lists about 99.9% of the time.

The meta is still fluid. I really don't think there is anything particularly OP right now. World Eaters are good because berzerkers are good, but ground slogging berzerkers are a very one dimensional army, so they are really good against certain army types and against others, they will be almost auto lose (like a flying shooty army).

Someone mentioned an all DP army. Against very specialised and auto win against some armies, but will probably auto lose against others.

 luke1705 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

I do like Kharn for the re-rolls, but the basic chaos lord for 99 points less will still let you do re-rolls of 1, which is almost as good, and his aura is a lot larger. I've been using that to great effect.

This. Taking Kharn for full rerolls is a waste of points, just take a bare bones Chaos Lord instead and use the saved points for something else that will actually get full utility.

Well, I think it all depends on what you are running Kharn with and how you want to strategise your army around him. Running Kharn up the board with two LR besides him, then he doesn't waste his awesome fighting capability and the LRs get benefit from his rerolls.

As a stationary firebase there are of course cheaper options like said chaos lord, but one lone chaos lord might not be much of a counter charge option for your firebase if it gets attacked whereas Kharn will give anyone some pause.

Bear in mind also that some stuff like Defilers are at 4+ to hit. So, in this case, a reroll is much stronger than just a reroll 1 to hit.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, I think it all depends on what you are running Kharn with and how you want to strategise your army around him. Running Kharn up the board with two LR besides him, then he doesn't waste his awesome fighting capability and the LRs get benefit from his rerolls.

As a stationary firebase there are of course cheaper options like said chaos lord, but one lone chaos lord might not be much of a counter charge option for your firebase if it gets attacked whereas Kharn will give anyone some pause.

Bear in mind also that some stuff like Defilers are at 4+ to hit. So, in this case, a reroll is much stronger than just a reroll 1 to hit.

Kharn in and of himself is a weak counter-assault unit. If something is attacking whatever Kharn is standing next to giving his aura, they can most likely kill IT and Kharn. You're better off filling the Raiders with Berzerkers or something.

By all means, fill the LRs with berzerkers. That has always been the plan.

Raising my question again. Anyone had experience with fielding mass noise marines with Sonic blastors? Seems like a lot of shots.

Kharn also isn't quite fast enough to keep up with the raiders to buff them after a turn or so, but they should buffer him nicely from most things on the wrong side of the tracks.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

blaster noise should ride rhinos, while footslogging should be for blastmasters. 5 noiser with blastmaster are 108 pts! 5 with blaster are 100 pts... a minimum rhino is 72.

Vanguard detachment

a lord
a sorc

3X 5 noise with blasters and a doom siren

2 rhino

4X 5 noise with blastmaster

2X2 spawn (filler, better units can be here)

2X 5 havocs, 2 heavy bolter, 2 lascannon

about 1500 pts. maybe it can work?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

That's my goal right here.

My to-do list is something like that :

- 20 Noises marines, all with sonic weapon (so 14 sonic blaster and 3 Blastmaster) and combiplasma on Noise marine champ
- Going with one Chaos lord for the reroll
- 2 Spawn to protect them (a little) from assault and teleporting units
- 3 bikes with 2 melta and a sorcerer on bike to snipe super heavy (with prescience you can turbo-boost and use your melta normally)
- 10 Raptors with 3 flamers (2 flamers + Combiflamers) with a sorcerer with jetpack (for warptime)
- Sicaran with two lascanon

All that for 1500 points.

blaster noise should ride rhinos, while footslogging should be for blastmasters. 5 noiser with blastmaster are 108 pts! 5 with blaster are 100 pts... a minimum rhino is 72.

With assault weapon you can just advance at any turn until you'r in position, so NM are 6+1D6", not sure the rhino is mandatory.

I wish you could take noise marine havocs as heavy support with 4 blastmasters it wouldn't even be redicules since they are roughly comparable to missile launchers now.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

That's my goal right here.

My to-do list is something like that :

- 20 Noises marines, all with sonic weapon (so 14 sonic blaster and 3 Blastmaster) and combiplasma on Noise marine champ
- Going with one Chaos lord for the reroll
- 2 Spawn to protect them (a little) from assault and teleporting units
- 3 bikes with 2 melta and a sorcerer on bike to snipe super heavy (with prescience you can turbo-boost and use your melta normally)
- 10 Raptors with 3 flamers (2 flamers + Combiflamers) with a sorcerer with jetpack (for warptime)
- Sicaran with two lascanon

All that for 1500 points.

blaster noise should ride rhinos, while footslogging should be for blastmasters. 5 noiser with blastmaster are 108 pts! 5 with blaster are 100 pts... a minimum rhino is 72.

With assault weapon you can just advance at any turn until you'r in position, so NM are 6+1D6", not sure the rhino is mandatory.

idk if i am ok with the -1 to hit and the general squishiness of noise marines... if they walk, they can be shot easily...

Yea but all the point you spend in rhino can go on more Noise marines.
And in the case of noise marines you get more dakka when you get killed, so that's not like your points are totally lost when you get killed (exept of course if there is nothing at range).

So i'm not sure if X Noise marines in Y Rhino are so much better than X+Yx3.6 Noise marines without rhino.

 luke1705 wrote:
Kharn also isn't quite fast enough to keep up with the raiders to buff them after a turn or so, but they should buffer him nicely from most things on the wrong side of the tracks.

That's why you should start the game with Kharn inside the Raiders, then Disembark and advance for 9+d6" first turn movement and he's still buffing the raiders. He'll lag behind a bit but with some good advance rolls he should be able to keep up.

Anyone tried the hellforged preds yet?

Really considering a flamer one! 189pts looks pretty tasty

2d6 s5 ap-1 2dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm

thats a whole lot of flame.

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone tried the hellforged preds yet?

Really considering a flamer one! 189pts looks pretty tasty

2d6 s5 ap-1 2dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm
1 d6 s5 -1 1dm

thats a whole lot of flame.

Nasty, 4d6 auto hits on a predator shassy. Drive it into the Hordes and dare them to charge you! Mwahahaha!

It's quite a lot but have you seen the renegade Baneblade? Max that thing out and you're killing Hordes left and right: 2d6 S9 AP-3 D3, d3 S10 AP-3 Dd6, 4 S9 AP-3 Dd6 and 8d6 S5 AP-1 D1. Four Twin Heavy Flamers! That's an average of 28 auto hits! On top of all the anti-tank stuff! Expensive, sure, but damn do I want to take one of these monsters and drive it right into an Ork/Nid Horde, "Burn the Xenos".

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Kharn also isn't quite fast enough to keep up with the raiders to buff them after a turn or so, but they should buffer him nicely from most things on the wrong side of the tracks.

That's why you should start the game with Kharn inside the Raiders, then Disembark and advance for 9+d6" first turn movement and he's still buffing the raiders. He'll lag behind a bit but with some good advance rolls he should be able to keep up.

I actually love this idea lmao

Kharn is amazingly good when it comes to making stuff better, and the lower balistic skill, the better.
At BS 3+ he increases the effectiveness of a unit by 33%, at 4+ he increases the unit by 50% and at 5+ he increases the effectiveness by 67%.

This means that if a unit is more expensive than Kharn, and hits on a 4+, it is equally effective to take Kharn and buff two units than to take three of that same unit, not counting the extra value of being able to target three things.

He does this while filling the role of "Fark that Deep Striking unit trying to target my gun line"

dethric wrote:
Kharn is amazingly good when it comes to making stuff better, and the lower balistic skill, the better.
At BS 3+ he increases the effectiveness of a unit by 33%, at 4+ he increases the unit by 50% and at 5+ he increases the effectiveness by 67%.

This means that if a unit is more expensive than Kharn, and hits on a 4+, it is equally effective to take Kharn and buff two units than to take three of that same unit, not counting the extra value of being able to target three things.

He does this while filling the role of "Fark that Deep Striking unit trying to target my gun line"

He's pretty mad that he has to baby sit these Tanks, he's even angrier that someone is trying to charge his babies!

I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only power armour unit i can think of which is more point effecient with small arms at long-range are sister of battle dominions with storm bolters. Who happen to also be by far the best at short range too.

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

You can run them in two seperate squads so two units of 5 if you're worried about morale, technically better since the squad champions have an extra attack, and they have to kill 3 to even cause a morale test.

 Rydria wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

You can run them in two seperate squads so two units of 5 if you're worried about morale, technically better since the squad champions have an extra attack

The question still stands though: do Morale losses prevent them from shooting again?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

If noise marines are removed from play due to Morale, do they still get to fire? If not, foot slogging 10 of them up the board may be dangerous.

You can run them in two seperate squads so two units of 5 if you're worried about morale, technically better since the squad champions have an extra attack

The question still stands though: do Morale losses prevent them from shooting again?

No because they weren't slain but fled (morale specifically says they flee) music of the apocalypse specifically says models slain.

Noise Marines as troops are pretty great. Here are our other troops for comparison (that I would even consider taking)

5 noise Marines w blastmaster is 108
5csm with a missile launcher is 90
10 poxwalkers are 60 (situational and req dg)
10 cultists are 50
10 brimstones 20 pts

If you kit out your noise Marines with sonic blasters too, you go up to 124. With a Doom Siren it goes to 146. I think at that point a Doom siren is too expensive for footslogging. Either barebones with a blastmaster or bm + 4x sonic blasters is the way to go.

Rhinos with Combi meltas to move em around are pretty dank too.

Don't forget that:

10 Mutants are 40 points
10 Militia without special weapons is 40 points

 luke1705 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

I do like Kharn for the re-rolls, but the basic chaos lord for 99 points less will still let you do re-rolls of 1, which is almost as good, and his aura is a lot larger. I've been using that to great effect.

Rerolling 1's is NOT almost as good. You're lying to yourself.

In fact, it's exactly twice as good if you are supporting units with 3+ WS/BS. A lord will buff you to hitting at about 77% vs Kharn or Abaddon who bring you to 88%.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
well, back to the topic of tactics before it gets sidetracked ...

Anyone tried a walking army of noise marines. Like seriously pack 80 noise marines with sonic blasters and move them up the field while shooting?

It looks like it shouldn't work, but sonice blasters are assault 3. So, those noise marines can move, assault and then shoot 3 times.

And unless its T8, Str 4 shooting is just as effective against everything from T4 to T7. 80 noise marines with 3 shots each is 240 shots per turn. And the range is 6 +d6 +24 inches, after you have moved. That's pretty good and should just about reach most things on the board.

Walking them is fine remember that their only 1" slower than Daemonettes in movement and advance. So not slow at all. The only sonic weapon likely to be in range turn 1 is the Blastmaster anyway. So, camp those MSU Blastmasters squads in cover near a rear objective. Then walk some Sonic Blaster armed squads forward. They probably won't be in range so advancing costs you nothing. Turn 1 you average 9" + 6" moving on turn 2 for 15" forward movement, with the Sonic Blasters 24" your hitting mid-field. If you take fast cavalry or flying Princes in your list, and or mass daemons; they won't be take as much fire. That said I would take 80 of them ; maybe 40: 4 5X MSU squads with Blastmasters. You can either keep their bolters for 108 pts, or take Sonic Blasters for 124 pts <still 1 pt cheaper than a naked MSU Blastmaster squad in the 7th!>. Then take two 10X Sonic Blaster squads. While Noise Marines are very good with the Blaster they cost more than twice as much as a Daemonette, so take come of them to take care of Terminators and the like.

I feel like the people are undervaluing Sonic Blasters. A squad of 10 will kill 3.3 Marine, 6.7 Eldar Guardians, 8.9 Guardsman, and 8.3 Ork Boyz a turn. While a Havoc squad with 4 Heavy Bolters kills 2.7 Marines, 4.4 Guardsman, and 5.3 Ork Boyz a turn. Before even taking into account re-roll auras or Prescience. Sure the Noise Marines 200 pts to the Havocs cost 105 pts; but they have twice as many bodies. Even if you take two heavy bolter Havoc squads for more comparable points. The Sonic Blaster squad kills the while halve as effective against Marines, are equivalent in Guardsman and kill 2 fewer Orks. Since, Heavy Bolters are anti-infantry/horde I see no reason to take them if your going heavy on Noise Marines. Missiles launches would be a far better choice overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
Yea but all the point you spend in rhino can go on more Noise marines.
And in the case of noise marines you get more dakka when you get killed, so that's not like your points are totally lost when you get killed (exept of course if there is nothing at range).

So i'm not sure if X Noise marines in Y Rhino are so much better than X+Yx3.6 Noise marines without rhino.

Or 7.7 Daemonettes, Herald, or a Seeker Chariot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kharn is the only hero in CSM right now other than Abaddon that gives units around him a reroll to hit. That's not a small thing. The first time my friend put Azreal into a fire base and told me he gives models around him a 4++ invul, gives them rerolls to hit, plus he himself can serve as a countercharge... I was green with envy.

I do like Kharn for the re-rolls, but the basic chaos lord for 99 points less will still let you do re-rolls of 1, which is almost as good, and his aura is a lot larger. I've been using that to great effect.

Rerolling 1's is NOT almost as good. You're lying to yourself.

It's "almost" as good because you couldn't have a buff aura that does anything better than re-rolls of 1 while being worse than full on re-rolls, assuming that you hit on 3's.

Anyhow, I think you really need to be dedicated to your gunline to make Kharn do enough work to be more than double the points of a normal lord. Obviously having units that normally would hit on a 4+ helps this a lot. And I wonder if gunline is still going to be the play style when more progressive scoring missions are released. (That's my way of saying I don't think it will be)

 Rydria wrote:
I0 sonic blaster noise marines is only a 20pts more than 5 terminators w/ power sword/combi bolters. Though the noise marines have an inferior save they have 10 extra shots at 12inch (optimal combi range) and 20 more shots at 13-24 inch range. Noise marines also shot when they die so foot slogging them is perfectly fine since even if they die they will shot somthing. They are also decent in combat nowhere near berserker but they are no push overs, also unlike berserkers they actually do somthing as they walk up the board.

The only power armour unit i can think of which is more point effecient with small arms at long-range are sister of battle dominions with storm bolters. Who happen to also be by far the best at short range too.

Before, Sonic Blaster got changed to Salvo. Noise Marines were raiders from the 3-5th edition. You were paying for their ability to shoot and then charge in and mop up any survivors. They may not have +1 initiative anymore but their extra attack basically serves the same purpose now. So, gun down 8-9 Nids/IG/Orks a turn staying out of range. But its to your advantage you can charge in for an additional 5-6 kill in melee. If only the Doom Siren could be fired in melee outside if the champion dying I could almost see my ways to using them.

mmh, the "walk them/no rhino" rgument makes sense...i'll try them.
2X10 noise with blasters, plasma pistol+p.sword champ and icon of excess 434 pts..not cheap. but with some support they could kill a lot of stuff.
add in 4x5 noise marines with blastmaster/bolter for 432 pts more... some fire support (decimator + full las predator?)...a sorceror+a lord, stock, for auras and boons...could be worse!

The champ should also have a sonic blaster doom sirens are also really meh now being only d3 hits. I don't have the book on hand since I'm not home can you take a sonic blaster and a combi weapon on the noise champion at the same time.

 Rydria wrote:


Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Oh, its some much worse than that. Lucius' swordsmanship is "Perfect" but he hits on a 2+ just like every other melee character? Compare him to the Emperor's Champion for instance. Would you rather have +2 attacks or re-roll to hit any miss AND +3 strength vs characters? The Black Sword is just better than the "Blade of the Laer", because reasons. Then you have Lucius mediocre saves 3+/5++. They could have at least give him a 4+ in combat; he's Slaanesh's champion after all. The prominent rack of Combat Drugs on his back do nothing. He used to be able to pick drug cocktail <combat bonuses> he wanted. Finally, his character aura is just bland. Look at the auras the Imperial special characters grant. Granting +1S to sonic weapons, FNP within 6" would have been more characterful. While he isn't terrible, the best thing you can say about Lucius is that he's cheaper, and that really a shame. Maybe when/if he gets a plastic model they'll do something interesting with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:
The champ should also have a sonic blaster doom sirens are also really meh now being only d3 hits. I don't have the book on hand since I'm not home can you take a sonic blaster and a combi weapon on the noise champion at the same time.

No, the bolter has to swap for the sonic blaster; and the pistol can only swap for a melee weapon or a plasma pistol. You are allowed to take two pistols or two melee weapons; but only one bolter or combi-weapon.

 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:


Lucius the eternal is less durable than a regular chaos lord :/

He has been consistently the worst chaos special character for the last 3 editions, and recently his only saving grace his doom siren got nerffed, also unlike Kharn and Typhus his invulnerable didn't get boosted to 4+.

Oh, its some much worse than that. Lucius' swordsmanship is "Perfect" but he hits on a 2+ just like every other melee character? Compare him to the Emperor's Champion for instance. Would you rather have +2 attacks or re-roll to hit any miss AND +3 strength vs characters? The Black Sword is just better than the "Blade of the Laer", because reasons. Then you have Lucius mediocre saves 3+/5++. They could have at least give him a 4+ in combat; he's Slaanesh's champion after all. The prominent rack of Combat Drugs on his back do nothing. He used to be able to pick drug cocktail <combat bonuses> he wanted. Finally, his character aura is just bland. Look at the auras the Imperial special characters grant. Granting +1S to sonic weapons, FNP within 6" would have been more characterful. While he isn't terrible, the best thing you can say about Lucius is that he's cheaper, and that really a shame. Maybe when/if he gets a plastic model they'll do something interesting with him.

God forbid GW give Slaanesh any good characters!

I feel that noise marine army need to be complemented with other stuff. They are flexible, but they aren't armor killers. I mean, sure they can try and empty 100 shots into a tank to kill it, but its not what they are good at. So, we need to have 3 squads of Havocs with lascannons in cover to handle the armor.

What noise marines are good at is that they can stay at 24 inches and remain deadly. A lot of stuff needs to close to 12 inches for doubletap, and others even need to close into close combat range. Noise marines can shoot just as well at 24 inches. So, if you meet an opponent that charges forward, you move back back 6 + d6 and then empty your full volley of shots into it. Then do it again next turn!

Just when he thinks he finally have you backed against your own board edge. That's when you countercharge him and surprise him. With icon of excess and 2 attacks each, even that sonic blastor wielding noise marine can hit a surprising number of times (because of death to the false emperor). So I think have maybe 4 squads of 10 noise marines (for some flexibility) to dominate the midfield. Complement it with lascannon havocs behind in cover and a daemon prince to give a strong countercharge close combat attack.

Then play to your strengths. If you outshoot the enemy, then keep at 24 inches and keep on firing until you are ready to charge in and finish him off. If you meet a turtling shooty army. Like AM with tanks, surrounded by IG guardsmen bubblewrap. Then charge your noise marines 6+d6 forward and thin out the bubble wrap with your sonice blastors. Even if your heavy support eventually lose the cross fire exchange, by then your noise marines should be able to charge in. Once you are in close combat, the tanks have nowhere to run and can't do much.

And if you run into something so overwhelming (but with super low model count). Then you have tons of bodies to play the objective game. The good thing about noise marines is that even if they are parked on an objective, they are likely to be very useful because their sonic blastors are still range 24 inches with 3 shots.

 Sersi wrote:


Oh, its some much worse than that. Lucius' swordsmanship is "Perfect" but he hits on a 2+ just like every other melee character? Compare him to the Emperor's Champion for instance. Would you rather have +2 attacks or re-roll to hit any miss AND +3 strength vs characters? The Black Sword is just better than the "Blade of the Laer", because reasons. Then you have Lucius mediocre saves 3+/5++. They could have at least give him a 4+ in combat; he's Slaanesh's champion after all. The prominent rack of Combat Drugs on his back do nothing. He used to be able to pick drug cocktail <combat bonuses> he wanted. Finally, his character aura is just bland. Look at the auras the Imperial special characters grant. Granting +1S to sonic weapons, FNP within 6" would have been more characterful. While he isn't terrible, the best thing you can say about Lucius is that he's cheaper, and that really a shame. Maybe when/if he gets a plastic model they'll do something interesting with him.

The Blade of the laer a weapon that not only took the life of a Primarch but caused the complete corruption of another causing him to fall so far even his fellow traitor primarch tried to end his life, isn't even worth of being named according to GW, it is literally listed as a master crafted power sword :/

 Sersi wrote:
No, the bolter has to swap for the sonic blaster; and the pistol can only swap for a melee weapon or a plasma pistol. You are allowed to take two pistols or two melee weapons; but only one bolter or combi-weapon.

Oh well, it would have been amazing if the champ could have wielded both so much dakka on a single model


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrhappyface wrote:

God forbid GW give Slaanesh any good characters!

Where is Doomrider I know he sucked back in 3rd rules wise and character wise but the internet has turned him into something glorious :(

He was also super cool in the white scars audio drama, casually smacking around the white scars, took out a storm talon with his sword by jumping up onto it from a ramp while cleaving the cockpit in twine, my god why doesn't he have a new model and rules : (

Hi guys'll, which of the forge world dreadnoughts/decimstor do you guys think is the best?

Anyone considered a heavy drop beta strike army?

Put down some Havocs squads with cheap cultists squad to bubble wrap and prevent first strike attacks. And you have some thing on the table at the start. And let the enemy go first (He probably will since you will likely have more drops than him). When its your turn, drop the bulk of your army which will be in the form of melta/plasma Raptor squads and Terminators. The key thing is that he won't be able to choose your best units to hit, all he can shoot at is some Havocs in cover or cheap cultists. Whereas you can deep strike where ever you want and do heavy damage to specifically the units you deem are the most dangerous. Have jump pack Lords or Termi lords (and Abaddon) in the beta deep strike force. It will improve your beta strike to hit immensely. What do you think?

I know just one combi melta Termi sqaud with rerolls from Abaddon managed to take down a flying storm raven in one battle I tried out. It might be the answer to those 3 to 5 SR lists. You can't bubble wrap a SR. And the SRs can't hit your units in deep strike. If you can take down a few SR in your beta strike, that's at least half or more of his army already and it will distrupt his entire strategy.

 Rydria wrote:
The champ should also have a sonic blaster doom sirens are also really meh now being only d3 hits. I don't have the book on hand since I'm not home can you take a sonic blaster and a combi weapon on the noise champion at the same time.

It's says a noise marine can take a Blasmaster or Sonic blaster. Not a "Champ noise marine". yea it's dumb as fu... "You got promoted, now hand back that sonic weapon you love so much.."

Personally i will wait the chaos codex to know if I put a doom siren on my NM champ. At the moment they are just terrible for the point (maybee if it was D6 auto-hit like every "flammers").

Combi-plasma are the best weapon on NM imo. Think about all the fun you'll have when your champ get killed : Firing between S4 AP0 DMG1 shot at CT4+ AND S8 AP-4 DMG2 at CT2+. Great isn't it ?

It says any noise marine may exchange boltgun for sonic blaster

I assume that includes the champ.

Doesn't say any noise marine, it says "any model", which only makes it even more clear the champion can take a sonic blaster. Doesn't seem like the champion can take a blastmaster, though.

kaintxu wrote:
Hi guys'll, which of the forge world dreadnoughts/decimstor do you guys think is the best?

Decimators with 2x Soul devourers (or whatever they're called)?

 mrhappyface wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
Hi guys'll, which of the forge world dreadnoughts/decimstor do you guys think is the best?

Decimators with 2x Soul devourers (or whatever they're called)?

Soulburner Petards?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
Hi guys'll, which of the forge world dreadnoughts/decimstor do you guys think is the best?

Decimators with 2x Soul devourers (or whatever they're called)?

Soulburner Petards?

That's it!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
What do you think?

I know just one combi melta Termi sqaud with rerolls from Abaddon managed to take down a flying storm raven in one battle I tried out. It might be the answer to those 3 to 5 SR lists. You can't bubble wrap a SR. And the SRs can't hit your units in deep strike. If you can take down a few SR in your beta strike, that's at least half or more of his army already and it will distrupt his entire strategy.

6 termies with melta and power weapons cost 324 points and on average deal almost 7 damage to a stormraven, so half of its wounds, even without Abaddon or lord assistance.
1 stormraven in the usual tournament loadout costs 311 points and on average kills almost 3 terminators.
So they are matched, but the termies get the first strike.

Seems like the best bet against SR I've seen so far.

Soulburner petards now 60 pts each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sonic dreads and laser destroyers get rules.
FW characters improved but still not fixed.

RIP catapulting the brass scorpion into combat with warp time. Khorne is pleased but I am not


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BUT I CAN GET TWO BUTCHER CANNONS NOW

 luke1705 wrote:
BUT I CAN GET TWO BUTCHER CANNONS NOW

That's pretty good... What's that? The Leviathan is BS2+? Excuse me while I go scream Bloody Murder in the glorious name of Khorne. *Mwahahahahahaha!*

But seriously: 16x S8 AP-1 D2 shots hitting on a 2+!? Get 4-5 of them with a couple of Lords for re-rolls and warpsmiths to repair them and laugh your opponant off the table! One of these guys with re-rolls will, on average, kill over 6 marines a turn, 4 terminators (which isn't that impressive, but...) or do almost 8 wounds to an Imperial Knight, one round of shooting from 3 of these guys would take down a knight a turn!

Captyn_Bob wrote:
FW characters improved but still not fixed.

Zhufor seems pretty fixed to me. 150 points for a far more superior terminator lord? Yes please!

Hey guys,

Trying to catch up.

Above, I assume your referring to the Contemptor Dread.

Maybe I'm being dense... but isn't 2 Butcher Cannons only 8 shots? Heavy 4.
It doesn't state "Twin" Butcher cannon in the profile.


C

mcsheehy wrote:
Hey guys,

Trying to catch up.

Above, I assume your referring to the Contemptor Dread.

Maybe I'm being dense... but isn't 2 Butcher Cannons only 8 shots? Heavy 4.
It doesn't state "Twin" Butcher cannon in the profile.


C

Butcher cannon array on a Leviathan.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
BUT I CAN GET TWO BUTCHER CANNONS NOW

That's pretty good... What's that? The Leviathan is BS2+? Excuse me while I go scream Bloody Murder in the glorious name of Khorne. *Mwahahahahahaha!*

But seriously: 16x S8 AP-1 D2 shots hitting on a 2+!? Get 4-5 of them with a couple of Lords for re-rolls and warpsmiths to repair them and laugh your opponant off the table! One of these guys with re-rolls will, on average, kill over 6 marines a turn, 4 terminators (which isn't that impressive, but...) or do almost 8 wounds to an Imperial Knight, one round of shooting from 3 of these guys would take down a knight a turn!

Cant repair them now thanks to the faq on thier hunger. Makes the helwrights repair ability wierdly unsynergetic with his own creations.

 McGibs wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
BUT I CAN GET TWO BUTCHER CANNONS NOW

That's pretty good... What's that? The Leviathan is BS2+? Excuse me while I go scream Bloody Murder in the glorious name of Khorne. *Mwahahahahahaha!*

But seriously: 16x S8 AP-1 D2 shots hitting on a 2+!? Get 4-5 of them with a couple of Lords for re-rolls and warpsmiths to repair them and laugh your opponant off the table! One of these guys with re-rolls will, on average, kill over 6 marines a turn, 4 terminators (which isn't that impressive, but...) or do almost 8 wounds to an Imperial Knight, one round of shooting from 3 of these guys would take down a knight a turn!

Cant repair them now thanks to the faq on thier hunger. Makes the helwrights repair ability wierdly unsynergetic with his own creations.

Oh. That. Is so dumb.

 McGibs wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
BUT I CAN GET TWO BUTCHER CANNONS NOW

That's pretty good... What's that? The Leviathan is BS2+? Excuse me while I go scream Bloody Murder in the glorious name of Khorne. *Mwahahahahahaha!*

But seriously: 16x S8 AP-1 D2 shots hitting on a 2+!? Get 4-5 of them with a couple of Lords for re-rolls and warpsmiths to repair them and laugh your opponant off the table! One of these guys with re-rolls will, on average, kill over 6 marines a turn, 4 terminators (which isn't that impressive, but...) or do almost 8 wounds to an Imperial Knight, one round of shooting from 3 of these guys would take down a knight a turn!

Cant repair them now thanks to the faq on thier hunger. Makes the helwrights repair ability wierdly unsynergetic with his own creations.

So they did. Wonder why they changed that, it wasn't really a problem before the FAQ.

Thank you Mrgibs!

I didn't realise the Levi got an array!

Might have to look into that as a support. Ie, dakka station

Reading the Wargear section,

It seems that when replacing the fists/meltas, you keep the 2x flamers?
(Just so I can get the points right)

TBH, at that points investment, wouldn't we be better off with a Fire Raptor??

mcsheehy wrote:
Thank you Mrgibs!

I didn't realise the Levi got an array!

Might have to look into that as a support. Ie, dakka station

Reading the Wargear section,

It seems that when replacing the fists/meltas, you keep the 2x flamers?
(Just so I can get the points right)

Yep, which means when the dread overwatches it gets 2d6 S5 auto hits + 16 shots hitting on 6s.

TBH, at that points investment, wouldn't we be better off with a Fire Raptor??

There are a few bonuses for both:
- The Dread is cheaper in points.
- The Dread is cheaper in money.
- The Dread has higher strength weapons.
- The Dread has BS2+ rather than 3+.
- The Dread is more damaging in overwatch.
- The Fire Raptor has more shots.
- The Fire Raptor has better AP.
- The Fire Raptor is more mobile and has no -1 to hit from heavy weapons.
- The Fire Raptor can't be charged by none flyer models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McGibs wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
BUT I CAN GET TWO BUTCHER CANNONS NOW

That's pretty good... What's that? The Leviathan is BS2+? Excuse me while I go scream Bloody Murder in the glorious name of Khorne. *Mwahahahahahaha!*

But seriously: 16x S8 AP-1 D2 shots hitting on a 2+!? Get 4-5 of them with a couple of Lords for re-rolls and warpsmiths to repair them and laugh your opponant off the table! One of these guys with re-rolls will, on average, kill over 6 marines a turn, 4 terminators (which isn't that impressive, but...) or do almost 8 wounds to an Imperial Knight, one round of shooting from 3 of these guys would take down a knight a turn!

Cant repair them now thanks to the faq on thier hunger. Makes the helwrights repair ability wierdly unsynergetic with his own creations.

Though what I did just notice is that now they regain wounds from damage done in Overwatch which makes it's 2x Hellflamers very nice.

Wow! Faith rewarded...

Sonic Dreadnoughts return with Twin Blastmasters and a Doom Siren.

Things shall get loud now!

Ok,

I just mathed out the Levi Dreadnought and the Fire Raptor against a unit of 10 marines. (I did check other stuff too)

You can see the math for the Marines.
Comparing different loadouts for the Levi and the Fire Raptor.

Levi is approx 20% more efficient point for point. Surprisingly Soulburner is still more efficient at killing.
Moreso than 16 shots hitting on 2's.

But it has to get into range and will likely be moving a lot more. So I made a profile and amended its hit roll to 3.

Link : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit?usp=sharing

On a side note... the Butcher Cannons jump way ahead against a T7 12W Daemonic Vehicle. (3+, 5++)

Adding a lord for re-roll 1's makes the pt/pt efficiency jump by approx 20%. Well worth the investment. IMO.

C

Sonic Dreadnought:

So the new Sonic Dreadnought is a Hellbrute with two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two Blastmasters.

Doom Siren:

Skip the Doom Siren isn't worth it's points any more, plus you have access to a heavy flamer as an upgrade to the Helbrute fist anyway.

Twin Blastmasters:

Taking two Blastmasters costs only 6 points more that a Twin Lascannon, for 2D3 S8/AP-2/D3 shots. Its potentially much better than Twin Lascanons against armor doing 8 damage on average, but up to 18 damage in a single shooting phase. While its alt firing mode makes it effective against infantry hordes with up to 2D6 S4/AP-1/Damage 1 hits. Imagine if you happen to roll crazed! A Sonic Dreadnought with just 2 Blastmasters, and a Helbrute Fist for 168 pts. All that and its still 27 pts cheaper with for its two Blastmaster shots than the IA13 version! You could then take a heavy flamer in the fist for +17 pts, or swap out the fist for a Power Scourge for 7X S8/AP-2/Damage 2 melee attacks for 173 pts. There's no reason to NOT get this dreadnought over a basic Helbrute if you play Emperor's Children.

Also unlike the 7th ed version your don't have to stay still to get to shots from the Blastmaster making it more mobile. I'll take one or two and keep them in the backfield for fire support and to protect my camping Noise Marines for deep strikers.

Remind me why again they didn't give the Doomsiren the same profile all other flamers got but with slightly better strength and AP?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sersi wrote:
Taking two Blastmasters cost only 6 points more that a Twin Lascannon, for 2D3 S8/AP-2/D3 shots. Its potentially much better than Twin Lascanons against armor doing 8 damage on average, but up to 18 damage in a single shooting phase. While its alt firing mode makes it effective against infantry hordes with up to 2D6 S4/AP-1/Damage 1 hits. Imagine if you happen to role crazed! A Sonic Dreadnought with just 2 Blastmasters, and a Helbrute Fist for 168 pts. All that and its still 27 pts cheaper with for its two Blastmaster shots than the IA13 version! You could then take a heavy flamer in the fist for +17 pts, or swap out the fist for a Power Scourge for 7X S8/AP-2/Damage 2 melee attacks for 173 pts. There's no reason to NOT get this dreadnought over a basic Helbrute if you play Emperor's Children.

Also, this will likely be the go to Dreadnought now for any chaos player not going with a list based around the other 3 gods.

I know right. I was hoping for a single Blastmaster when I emailed Forge World about the Sonic Dreadnought. I never imagined that they would allow two of them. I can see why though. I doubt the Twin Sonic Blaster variant ever sold that well; and the alt mode of the Blastmaster makes Sonic Blasters pointless now. Since the Twin Blastmaster’s alt mode averages 7 shot with S4/AP-1, vs 6 shots at S4/AP-.

I am disappointed about the Soulburner Petards being double what they were. But I suppose 4d3 shots hitting on 3+ that cause mortal wounds is probably worth 210pts total (on a Decimator). Tossing a lord near em is also handy for the rerolling of 1s. I mean that's probably an average of 6MWs a turn which can be pretty crippling.

@Anticitizen,

I'm honestly not surprised after seeing some people take 6 of these!

Im considering a few options.
Giant Chaos Spawn got a buff, they now get the Daemons rules. So Nurgle and march it over the board soaking wounds.
Cheap as chips also.

Has anyone considered taking a Sokar Pattern Gunship, filling it with Plasma and a lord.
Move, drop, shoot, load, move, drop, shoot, load.

Plus your entire army gains its 4+ void shields.
Take 49 Zerkers and a Lord for re-rolls.


Anyway, onto more serious thoughts.
The Leviathan Dread is actually surprisingly cost efficient with those Butcher Cannons.

Stick a lord nearby for lols. His re-roll 1's adds 15% value per Levi. Works out at 55pts value per turn per dread.
So 2 dreads and your lord is worth 110pts per turn in re-rolls.
Approx.

How are the hellbrutes? Worth taking? I plan to do them nurgle or khorne possibly, maybe one each to match my armies but not sure if they are worth it?

str00dles1 wrote:
How are the hellbrutes? Worth taking? I plan to do them nurgle or khorne possibly, maybe one each to match my armies but not sure if they are worth it?

As outlined above, the Slaanesh Helbrute seems to be the best loadout. Saying that, a Helbrute with autocannon/multi melta and a power scourge ain't bad.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I am disappointed about the Soulburner Petards being double what they were. But I suppose 4d3 shots hitting on 3+ that cause mortal wounds is probably worth 210pts total (on a Decimator). Tossing a lord near em is also handy for the rerolling of 1s. I mean that's probably an average of 6MWs a turn which can be pretty crippling.

Same. I think 60pts each is too much. It should've been 45 or 50 each.

3rdlegion wrote:
Same. I think 60pts each is too much. It should've been 45 or 50 each.

Yeah... I had to remove a Chaos Lord from my list just to take the same loadout on both Decimators. But I suppose it could be worse...

50 would probably be better IMO, but whatever

 Sersi wrote:
Sonic Dreadnought:

So the new Sonic Dreadnought is a Hellbrute with two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two Blastmasters.

Doom Siren:

Skip the Doom Siren isn't worth it's points any more, plus you have access to a heavy flamer as an upgrade to the Helbrute fist anyway.

Twin Blastmasters:

Taking two Blastmasters cost only 6 points more that a Twin Lascannon, for 2D3 S8/AP-2/D3 shots. Its potentially much better than Twin Lascanons against armor doing 8 damage on average, but up to 18 damage in a single shooting phase. While its alt firing mode makes it effective against infantry hordes with up to 2D6 S4/AP-1/Damage 1 hits. Imagine if you happen to role crazed! A Sonic Dreadnought with just 2 Blastmasters, and a Helbrute Fist for 168 pts. All that and its still 27 pts cheaper with for its two Blastmaster shots than the IA13 version! You could then take a heavy flamer in the fist for +17 pts, or swap out the fist for a Power Scourge for 7X S8/AP-2/Damage 2 melee attacks for 173 pts. There's no reason to NOT get this dreadnought over a basic Helbrute if you play Emperor's Children.

Also unlike the 7th ed version your don't have to stay still to get to shots from the Blastmaster making it more mobile. I'll take one or two and keep them in the backfield for fire support and to protect my camping Noise Marines for deep strikers.

It can also advance and still shot something a regular Hellbrute can't do, which makes it incredibly versatile and fast.

 anticitizen013 wrote:

3rdlegion wrote:
Same. I think 60pts each is too much. It should've been 45 or 50 each.

Yeah... I had to remove a Chaos Lord from my list just to take the same loadout on both Decimators. But I suppose it could be worse...

50 would probably be better IMO, but whatever

Yeah, it could be worse. I just wanted to have a good unit for a change

Overall there's some interesting and good buff for Chaos from the FAQ. I am particularly interested in the Sonic Hellbrute and Giant Spawn now.

I'm glad I have an Emperor's Children army with a Sonic Dreadnought just chilling in my display cabinet. Might need to add some things to it and let it rip!

What do people think about the Deimos Vindicator? As a Thousand Sons player hurting for inexpensive ways to kill vehicles it looks fairly attractive.

Weird Chaos FAQ bits:
- Ferrum Infernus dreads are now just Helbrutes. no options for siege weaponry, no option to become Characters, just plain old Helbrutes. It's just lazy

- Removing "in the turn this is used" from Machina Malefica, making Hellwrights pointless

- Hellwrights can't be Thousand Sons, World Eaters or Death Guard...but CAN be Emperor's Children

- Hellforged Siege Claws (SIEGE claws) get a bonus against Infantry

Hellwrights can be world eaters too.
Not being able to repair hellforged vehicles is iffy

The drill is clearly the anti vehicle weapon and they have now made the claw anti infantry. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

How are helbrutes now? From what I see they can be a cheap dakka dread or get punchy with the power scourge but I've not played them yet. Also being able to go double blastmaster as a sonic dread seems solid but might be too expensive idk.

(Also I hope melta/fist is good because I have 5 from the dark vegence set)

They are a big target because they are relatively easy to kill. A rhino has 10 wounds and can blow smoke. A dread has only 8 wounds, yet is much more expensive than a Rhino. It is also more dangerous if you let it do what its equipped for.

So, its a no brainer which one your opponent would kill first unless you have other targets that are even juicier or take priority over an expensive Hellbrute.

You could try for target saturation but the hellbrute makes for an expensive distraction. I think it would work only in very specific armies that somehow are able to make your opponent shoot his heavy weapons at something else.

I think we can say a EC Noise Dread is better than MSU Noise marine for getting those great blastmaster.
What do you think he should get on the other arm when taking in complement of a Noise marine army ?

CrownAxe wrote:How are helbrutes now? From what I see they can be a cheap dakka dread or get punchy with the power scourge but I've not played them yet. Also being able to go double blastmaster as a sonic dread seems solid but might be too expensive idk.

(Also I hope melta/fist is good because I have 5 from the dark vegence set)

I have a friend who has been running an entire army of dreads (I believe they are equipped with autocannons and power scourges?) and he has reported them doing very well: their shooting isn't great but the power scourges make them very deadly in cc. Not sure whether MM + PF is a great load out for them: I used one with that set up VS a Tau player and another time VS a DA player and both times it did bugger all damage.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:I think we can say a EC Noise Dread is better than MSU Noise marine for getting those great blastmaster.
What do you think he should get on the other arm when taking in complement of a Noise marine army ?

2xBlastmaster + Power Scourge, bring the hurt in cc too.

Is a sonic dread unethical to bring to the no forgeworld crowd? Is that something a lot of people would have problems with because of it's forgeworld origins?

so is the decimator with soulburner petard still the option to go? or is a contemptor with butcher cannons or a Leviathat with butcher arrays better?

macluvin wrote:
Is a sonic dread unethical to bring to the no forgeworld crowd? Is that something a lot of people would have problems with because of it's forgeworld origins?

Sonic dreads where originally a standard codex option back in 3.5 that got lost in the 4th ed codex butchering. You can also build a blastmaster arm easily by using green stuff + the dirge caster from the chaos vehicle sprue so it can be made from standard GW kit. But you should still run it by your group before droping it on them.

 CrownAxe wrote:
How are helbrutes now? From what I see they can be a cheap dakka dread or get punchy with the power scourge but I've not played them yet. Also being able to go double blastmaster as a sonic dread seems solid but might be too expensive idk.

(Also I hope melta/fist is good because I have 5 from the dark vegence set)

Twin Blastmasters is on 6 points more than Twin Lascannons; and its 168 pts now so 22 pts cheaper since you don't have to take that dream killing Doom Siren upgrade. Two MSU Blastmaster Noise Marine squads are 216 pts minimum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
I think we can say a EC Noise Dread is better than MSU Noise marine for getting those great blastmaster.
What do you think he should get on the other arm when taking in complement of a Noise marine army ?

Well its been more points efficient since IA13 updated it to two shots. I'd go with the Power Scourge its only +2 pts more for +3 attacks. The fist S12 is great, but any vehicle or monster coming at you is going to be eating 8-18 damage. "If" they make charge range you Overwatch with 2D3 shots, then the Power Scourge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:
Is a sonic dread unethical to bring to the no forgeworld crowd? Is that something a lot of people would have problems with because of it's forgeworld origins?

Forge World models have been fully game legal for years now. In fact many tournaments allow them now. You should run it by your opponents but the Sonic Dreadnought is not OP anyway.

Well its been more points efficient since IA13 updated it to two shots. I'd go with the Power Scourge its only +2 pts more for +3 attacks. The fist S12 is great, but any vehicle or monster coming at you is going to be eating 8-18 damage. "If" they make charge range you Overwatch with 2D3 shots, then the Power Scourge.

Coudn't resist doing some mathammer on Scourge vs Helbrute fist (Helbruts hammer seems garbage, so didn't bother with it).

- On multi-wound (>2 HP) target :
- T8 or more : 3.11HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T7 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T6 to 5 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 5.55HP

In fact, the 2 more hits you get with scourge (3 attack on 3+) make less damage on models with more than 2HP and a save of 4/3/2+ than the Fist.

Ofc things are different when you look at 2 or 1Hp target. For exemple on Terminator Scourge score 1.944 dead vs 1.85 for the Fist.

Soooo... When talking about an Emperor Children army with lots of Sonic weapon :
- You get that anti-horde answer with Sonic Blaster and Blastmaster single frequency
- You get antiTEQ by saturation of sonic blaster and blastmaster on varied frequency.
- You get a little anti-light tank/Monstruouse creatures by blastmaster on varied frequency.

What you do need, imo, is more anti-tank, especially anti-heavy tank with Toughness>7 as blastmaster will have a hard time destroy those. So in that purpose a Hellbrut fist may complement a Emperor Children army much better than a scourge.

Lastly : You can take an heavy flammer with the fist, not with the Scourge. It's 4 point cheaper than a Doom Siren, but it's an heavy weapon. So no heavy flamers after an advance.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
Lastly : You can take an heavy flammer with the fist, not with the Scourge. It's 4 point cheaper than a Doom Siren, but it's an heavy weapon. So no heavy flamers after an advance.

Though, if your advancing, your probably not in range to use the flamer anyway.

kaintxu wrote:
so is the decimator with soulburner petard still the option to go? or is a contemptor with butcher cannons or a Leviathat with butcher arrays better?

Untill FW changes points values Decimator is way ahead if you are playing with enought screen (i.e. horrors) agaist charging enemies.
150 points for 4d3 mortal wounds on 3+ is jaw dropping value for money.

I ran a test game on weekend and for me the question is whether to take daemon prince or abaddon as a support hero.
The test was against SM with a lot of scouts and my heroes (changeling and DP) died on first turn.
Abaddon can start game in deep strike and deploy amidst decimators for guaranteed rerolls.

But recent tournaments show that sniper limits aren't that strong overall, so I am not sure.

Fan67 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
so is the decimator with soulburner petard still the option to go? or is a contemptor with butcher cannons or a Leviathat with butcher arrays better?

Untill FW changes points values Decimator is way ahead if you are playing with enought screen (i.e. horrors) agaist charging enemies.
150 points for 4d3 mortal wounds on 3+ is jaw dropping value for money.

I ran a test game on weekend and for me the question is whether to take daemon prince or abaddon as a support hero.
The test was against SM with a lot of scouts and my heroes (changeling and DP) died on first turn.
Abaddon can start game in deep strike and deploy amidst decimators for guaranteed rerolls.

But recent tournaments show that sniper limits aren't that strong overall, so I am not sure.

That's the thing, it is no longer 150 points. Soulburner petards are now 60 points each, so it comes to 210 points. Is it still worth it at that price tag?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone noticed that our leviathan pays more for the same type of weapon than the "good aligned" leviathan?

Our grav flux bombard is 65 while theirs is 50
Our butcher array is 80 with with extra range and +1 strength and -2LD, but 1 less AP and 2 less shots and theirs is 50.

to be honest numbers don't add up here unless Im missing something

The search for a counter to stormravens continues.

#1 lascannon havoc spam

A stormraven costs 311 points and kill 6,5 marines a turn (65% of two 5-man squads).

Two 5-man havoc squads with 8 lascannons total cost 330 pts and deal 10,8 damage to a stormraven on average. That's 79% of its total wounds.

I would still play stormravens over havocs - SRs don't lose to infantry hordes, havocs do.

#2 predators

two stormravens cost 622 pts and deal 16.6 wounds to predators on average (that's 1.5 predator)

three predators cost 639 pts and deal 15 wounds to stormravens on average (that's 1 stormraven).

So both are more or less evenly matched. But stormravens still are faster, better at fighting, and immune to close combat.

#3 land raiders

No nice even numbers here, but looks the best so far. Field LR with all the lascannons, combi-bolter and a havoc launcher. Now you cost 369 points and deal 8.6 damage to stormravens a turn. At the same time, a stormraven deals mere 4.6 damage to you.

Ravens are cheaper, but even including the points, you have a significant edge now. You are better against infantry, SR's are better against vehicles and again, immune to close combat. But so far, LR looks like the best bet.

Why aren't Bloodthirsters an answer to Stormravens?

7x S11 AP-4 Dd6 attacks (get a DP for re-rolls too), that does about 17 wounds to the SR doesn't it? With a bit of luck and a couple of BTs you could be destroying a SR a turn.

Why don't we like storm eagles and or fire raptors? Prescience and profit.

 luke1705 wrote:
Why don't we like storm eagles and or fire raptors? Prescience and profit.

Because we don't have money.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Why don't we like storm eagles and or fire raptors? Prescience and profit.

Because we don't have money.

If you convert a storm raven to have the appropriate weapons, I can't imagine that too many people would take issue. If they do, there is a conversion kit IIRC but the cost of a raven + conversion kit does begin to approach the cost of the storm eagle

I've been taking out flyers with my Kharybdis and my Flying Deamon Prince of Deamon Khorne Deamon Claws. The amount of wounds is annoying but it isn't impossible to deal with without specifically gearing your army to deal with them.

What about a double lascanon sicarian ? Those Sicaran autocannon : Assault weapon without the -1 penalty to hit Hard to hit flyer seems great on paper for AA ?

mrhappyface wrote:Why aren't Bloodthirsters an answer to Stormravens?

7x S11 AP-4 Dd6 attacks (get a DP for re-rolls too), that does about 17 wounds to the SR doesn't it? With a bit of luck and a couple of BTs you could be destroying a SR a turn.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Stormravens could easily stay around 23" away from bloodthirsters all the time, hitting them with most of their firepower and virtually immune to their charge.

luke1705 wrote:Why don't we like storm eagles and or fire raptors? Prescience and profit.

That feels like a good option, but personally, I'd love to play something different than flyer spam.

 skybax wrote:

mrhappyface wrote:Why aren't Bloodthirsters an answer to Stormravens?

7x S11 AP-4 Dd6 attacks (get a DP for re-rolls too), that does about 17 wounds to the SR doesn't it? With a bit of luck and a couple of BTs you could be destroying a SR a turn.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Stormravens could easily stay around 23" away from bloodthirsters all the time, hitting them with most of their firepower and virtually immune to their charge.

If your smart, it's quite easy to force flyers into some very unforgiving options:
1. They drop into hover mode and open themselves up to being fired upon and attacked by everything else you have on the board.
2. Move their minimum range but put them dangerously close to the Thirsters.
3. Stay airborn and away from the Thirsters but force yourself off the board.

Used to do this kind of stuff in 7th ed vs Vendetta and Vutlure spam, people often underestimate the threat range of a unit with 12" movement and 2d6" charge (even more so now with command re-rolls). It only takes one slip up, for them to get distracted by one of your other units, then suddenly the Thirster is in cc and the flyer is basically dead.

 skybax wrote:

luke1705 wrote:Why don't we like storm eagles and or fire raptors? Prescience and profit.

That feels like a good option, but personally, I'd love to play something different than flyer spam.

And that's totally understandable. Not really my cup of tea either. But one of each I don't really think is spam, and I was only suggesting the 1 to transport something meaty like zerkers into combat. If you don't need that, I really do think a single fire raptor is quite exceptional.

Also, a Leviathan Dreadnought hits on 2's at 36" range. "Only" hitting a flyer on 3's (probably with re-rolls of 1 from a lord somewhere) isn't too shabby since IIRC the storm raven is T7 too. That's 8 damage a turn from the leviathan now that it can take 2 butcher cannons. We could do a lot worse than that

The problem with using blood thirsters is that they have more than 10 wounds, so they can be singled out and shot at. They may look sturdy at 16 wounds, but enough shooting into it can still take it out.

If we are facing 3 to 5 storm Ravens, their combined firepower can surely take out one Bloodthirster. And they will get first strike because our blood thirster can only fly 12 inches. We can't reach them but they can reach us first.

Now we could go for threat overload. Have multiple bloodthirsters, but that would get expensive really fast. A blood thirster is more expensive than a Storm Raven.

Multiple Daemon Princes are probably a better plan. DPs can be screened by the rest of your army. But again, you really need quite a few if you are relying on them to be the counter to Storm Ravens, because if its just one or two, those will inevitably get focused down and killed by his SR alpha strike. Let's say we take the extreme. 5 SR with some assault type troops in them vs like 10 DPs. He goes first, he hovers all 5 SRs at 25 inches and focus fires down maybe two DPs and injures a third one. Now 8 DPs fly forward 12 inches and assault move. Second turn, he gets to shoot with all his weapons for one more turn. (you might lose 3 to 4 DP in this second attack because he is now within rapid fire range). And his assault troops unload and charge in too. If you lose 4, you are down to 4 DPs and some are probably tied up in assault with his troops. He still have 5 full health SR which you haven't even had the chance to charge at yet...

With the price hike of soulburner petards, what do people think of storm laser decimators? They seem like fantastic anti-infantry dakkadreads with 10 str 6 ap-2 shots. Importanly, stormlasers are assault weapons, allowing the decimator to move and shoot accuratly unlike most other weapon platforms. For about the same price as a regular helbrute, theyre looking good to me.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The problem with using blood thirsters is that they have more than 10 wounds, so they can be singled out and shot at. They may look sturdy at 16 wounds, but enough shooting into it can still take it out.

If we are facing 3 to 5 storm Ravens, their combined firepower can surely take out one Bloodthirster. And they will get first strike because our blood thirster can only fly 12 inches. We can't reach them but they can reach us first.

Now we could go for threat overload. Have multiple bloodthirsters, but that would get expensive really fast. A blood thirster is more expensive than a Storm Raven.

Multiple Daemon Princes are probably a better plan. DPs can be screened by the rest of your army. But again, you really need quite a few if you are relying on them to be the counter to Storm Ravens, because if its just one or two, those will inevitably get focused down and killed by his SR alpha strike.

Saying "daemon princes can hide behind screening units" and then saying "his alpha strike will kill your daemon princes" doesn't mesh.

If I were to go the bloodthirster route, I would use An'ggrath. Anything he touches turns to dust.

Skarbrand is enticing because you can stop them from falling back. I think in a list with An'ggrath as the scary bullet sponge, Skarbrand could do some work (obviously you would still need Daemon princes to engage them because Skarbrand's wings are too flimsy :( ). At least he can yell loudly at them.

But honestly? Exalted flamers. Characters that auto hit with their flamer. Smite spam (chaos can do this exceedingly well). And no one, literally no one in the game has better screening units for Storm Ravens to chew through. That -1 to hit AND a 4++...sweet baby Jesus

So our answer to Storm Ravens is to play a Daemon list? sadface. :(

It's almost impossible to beat a heavily skewed list without list tailoring. It also happens that Storm Ravens are slightly under costed its hard to find other units that can match them.

The good news is that they'll probably be adjusted in the new Space Marines codex and that if somebody is consistently spamming broken units then you don't need to play with them.

What about deredeo dreadnaughts? They can go into anti-air mode every other turn, that'd likely put some serious hurt on a stormraven.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So our answer to Storm Ravens is to play a Daemon list? sadface. :(

If you'll recall, my first answer was to take a Storm Eagle or a Fire Raptor. There are only so many good answers. If you'd like another one, I can mention the Leviathan Dreadnought again. Tons of d2 flamer hits, and hitting with 16 str 8 d2 shots on 3's is hardly awful


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway has anyone taken a look at the hellforged Falchion? Like the actual damage! Stick Kharn (or a regular chaos lord) next to that guy and profit! Or give him some good old pre science. Either way, it's a little expensive but I think kills a thing a turn and then some!

Yeah, anyway, maybe the points will be changed when the CSM and space marine codex comes out for the LR and the SR respectively. Right now, for SM players, it doesn't make sense to bring a LR when the SR is cheaper and better.

Anyway, I realised that a Blight Launcher shoots 24 inches, is assault 2, and does d3 damage with rend 2. Each plague marine squad can take two. So, anyone considered MSU plague marine squad spamming?

A basic minimum 5 man squad of plague marines with two blight launchers is 133 points. That's 4 shots of d3 damage which is pretty decent. The thing is, since they are assault, you can move, plus assault move and then shoot those things. If you want to add more firepower with synergy, the champion can use a combi melta (also assault) but its 12 inches. Leaving aside the combi melta, the basic sqaud with 2 launchers costs 133 points. So you can have quite a lot of squads of plague marines, all with blight launchers. At str 6, rend 2, d3 dmg, they can shoot anything, vehicles included. And at T5, with DR, plague marines are tough and should stick around.

Maybe complement this with a nurgle DP or two who can add to the CC aspect. The many squads of plague marines will screen the DP, who can counter charge anything within its quite long reach. The rerolls of 1s to hit will help too, not to mention the DP is a psyker. We can add a heavy support component too. If spamming blight launchers isn't enough. Like maybe some havocs squads. I don't know ... 12 squads of plague marines is just shy of 1600 points. 24 blight launcher packs 48 shots each turn which is a decent amount of ranged firepower already. The key thing to remember, is that ALL the units move 5+d6 and then shoot. So, this 48 blight launcher shots do not change even when you are moving at that speed.

60 plague marines and 2 DP can play the objective game too. When you think about it, its relatively fluffy, since deathguard is all about moving forward ponderously while weathering all sorts of heavy fire.

Think some more on the Sonic Dread and I can see going 2xBlastmaster and Missile Launcher being a good loadout. Both of the missile launcher profiles pair well with the blastmaster profiles. Plus you have good enough range that you can hunker down in cover and still laydown some good fire while shaving off some points for a fairly fragile for the points model

nice to see the FW faq makes rapier rules actually make sense now.

Is there any way to convert a hellbrute from the 7th main box into a contemptor dreadnough, or is it a silly idea? I still have one on the sprue which I have never used.

Also, what are people thoughts on using maggot lords mounts as giant chaos spawn? They are cheaper than forgeworld, and I honestly think they look better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what do you guys think will be better, a leviathan or one of the forge world fliers?

Leviathan seems more resilient if you can gain cover, fliers with the -1 to hit, seem also pretty good, move more, and seem to have more dakka (at least anti-infantry)

Flyers end up being slightly more expensive than the leviathan.

kaintxu wrote:
Is there any way to convert a hellbrute from the 7th main box into a contemptor dreadnough, or is it a silly idea? I still have one on the sprue which I have never used.

I wouldn't bother. The amount of work needed to be done to the Hellbrute to make it the size of a Contemptor and distinctly different to Hellbrutes / Dreads on the table is significant. You are far better off grabbing the BaC Single Pose Contemptor off Ebay.

 luke1705 wrote:


Anyway has anyone taken a look at the hellforged Falchion? Like the actual damage! Stick Kharn (or a regular chaos lord) next to that guy and profit! Or give him some good old pre science. Either way, it's a little expensive but I think kills a thing a turn and then some!

The Falchion looks amazing honestly. It's the last word in removing enemy heavies and super heavies. I like the look of the Fellblade and Typhon as well. I feel like all three are pretty versatile and will make their points back. Probably wouldn't take them in a game below 3k tho.

@Kaintxu

I am modding some Maggoth Lords into Giant Chaos Spawn.

Finished article (Not my painting)


As for dealing with flyer Spam.

I don't anticipate many opponents will be running those lists for very long.

The Levi dread with Butcher Array is probably our best option to counter these. Short of taking our own Flyers, such as a the Fire Raptor.

@mcsheehy

Looks great and while not much cheaper, you save some money both because they are cheaper and online retailer or LGS discount. Only issue is they are great for nurgle, what what to use if you want some for thousand sons once their codex comes out and everything needs the word?

How about Deredeos? the helical targetting array gives +1 to hit (which means autohits with an undamaged deredeo unless there are other modifiers)

so it's outputting an automatic 16 damage with the butcher array (before saves), or 15 with the ectoplasma battery, plus another 6 from the twin heavy bolters and 3D3 from the greater havok launcher (although the veil looks like a better choice). OK it cant be used two turns in a row but that's a significant amount of hurt to pump out on flyers in a turn.

Im sure you could do some further modding...

Chaos is Chaos after all.
None of the Daemons look pretty

Just fill in the Nurgley bits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Charax,

Your +1 to hit cancels out the -1 to hit for flyer.

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.
Otherwise your taking a lord. (Which I suggest)

At that point, I'd just rather have my Levi dread hitting on 3's.

The dorito hits on 2's with helical targeting. With a standard lord or pre science you mostly don't miss at all.

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

Honestly for the sonic dread the missile launcher is just not worth it.

I will take a blastmaster for 3 points more than a missile launcher anyday of the week. Plus the scourge gives 7! attacks. That is a great hybrid unit that brings lots of shooting while also being a Solid CC threat. All that for 173 points? Excuse me while I go convert some up.

175 points for 2d3 blastmaster shots, a missile launcher, and a doom siren is ........ wow. (Am I getting that right?)

You can efficiently pack in blastmaster shots a little more efficiently than with troops. 2 5 man squads with a blastmaster is 216 points... a single dread with twin blastmasters and a missile launcher is 175.

I get that there is a difference in the number of str4 shots tho. Pretty easy to make up that difference with saved points.

You shouldn't take the doom siren, d3 shots is just not worth it

I thought it was included no matter what.... Woops! Will recheck my faq!

So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

On the basis of cool-ness?

Lord of Skull

On the basis of gameplay?

Brass Scorpion

On the basis of likely being about to use it in any event in the US?

Krytan or Renegade Knight

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

 luke1705 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

On the basis of cool-ness?

Lord of Skull

On the basis of gameplay?

Brass Scorpion

On the basis of likely being about to use it in any event in the US?

Krytan or Renegade Knight

Agreed, if you're looking to play tournaments the safest bet would be the Kytan or Knight.

 Leth wrote:
Honestly for the sonic dread the missile launcher is just not worth it.

I will take a blastmaster for 3 points more than a missile launcher anyday of the week. Plus the scourge gives 7! attacks. That is a great hybrid unit that brings lots of shooting while also being a Solid CC threat. All that for 173 points? Excuse me while I go convert some up.

I'm sure he meant take a missile launcher in place of the Helbrute fist arm. The two Blastmasters are both on the right side of the model the same as the twin Lascannon. So you'd have three ranged weapons. I agree on the two Blastermaster/Power Scourge combo. The Fist is good since things like flying or deep striking Monstrous Creatures can end up in your gun-line. So maybe take two Sonic Dreads, one with a fist and one with a scourge to cover you bases.

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

Use heldrakes to 1st turn charge their shooters and advance zerkers on foot.

What notable things does the fist wound on a 2/3+ that the scourge doesn't ?

Spellfax wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

Use heldrakes to 1st turn charge their shooters and advance zerkers on foot.

I do like this idea a lot conceptually, but no self respecting person is going to let you charge the things that you want to charge. 8th edition - the age of bubble wrap

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

The rule literally says "a roll of 1 fails irrespective of any modifiers"

 luke1705 wrote:

Spellfax wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Lets pretend that I don't use rhinos, and that I am not really a fan of land raiders.

How do I get my zerkers into combat without losing like all of them to shooting?

Use heldrakes to 1st turn charge their shooters and advance zerkers on foot.

I do like this idea a lot conceptually, but no self respecting person is going to let you charge the things that you want to charge. 8th edition - the age of bubble wrap

it does create a great cinematic, giant demon jet planes plunging into hth.

atleast the drakes can fly and ignore intervening models and causes them to bubble wrap better. (no landing areas).

Enjoy!

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

The rule literally says "a roll of 1 fails irrespective of any modifiers"

So why all the hype about chaos lord or prescience and plasma squad ? For save a 1 is always failure, but i dont remember seeing this apply for hits, wound or other.

What notable things does the fist wound on a 2/3+ that the scourge doesn't ?

The Fist will always make more dammage than the scourge when attacking models with 3HP or more. Lots of attack are greats, but don't forget this new variable : Dmg per attack.

I put back my mathammer Hellbrut fist vs Scourge :
- On multi-wound (>2 HP) target :
- T8 or more : 3.11HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T7 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 4.44HP for Hellfist
- T6 to 5 : 4.14HP with scourge vs 5.55HP

So if you want an hellbrute to deal with TEQ/MEQ/GEQ take the scourge. I would say an E.C. got enough S4 shoot to deal with this and is in dire need of anti-MC/Tank.

The lord grants you re-rolls, so you're looking at 1/36 chance to overheat plasma instead of 1/6

Pre science is nice because most units are only BS 3+, so they'll hit more often. But it doesn't really help with overheat except for when you roll a 2. So it's like a 3% less likely chance that you'll overheat if you re-rolled a 2 and got a 1. Not that big of a deal, but a buddy of mine did just that on his first 3 CP re-rolls of 8th edition!

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:

Plus, a roll of a '1' is always a fail. Regardless of modifiers.

Correct me if i'm wrong but a roll of 1 with a +1 modifier can be a success

well.. a 1 always fails for attacks, wounds.. saves..

However, a 1 with +1 modifier is not a 1, it's a 2.

If the rules said a natural 1 failed, then you'd be right, but they don't.


If you think a 1 with a +1 modifier is still always a fail, then is a 2 with a +1 modifier a fail for a model with WS/BS/Sv of 3+?

The rule literally says "a roll of 1 fails irrespective of any modifiers"

Yeah I really should learn to triple check before I post

 luke1705 wrote:
The lord grants you re-rolls, so you're looking at 1/36 chance to overheat plasma instead of 1/6

Pre science is nice because most units are only BS 3+, so they'll hit more often. But it doesn't really help with overheat except for when you roll a 2. So it's like a 3% less likely chance that you'll overheat if you re-rolled a 2 and got a 1. Not that big of a deal, but a buddy of mine did just that on his first 3 CP re-rolls of 8th edition!

Ok, so the lord work because it's a reroll, but prescience doesn't because it's a modificator ?

Yes that's correct. You can always re-roll a 1, but you can never "auto succeed" when you roll a 1, even if you technically hit on a "1+" by having WS 2+ with +1 to hit, for example.

GW always wants you to be able to theoretically fail a roll. Otherwise, it's not a dice game.

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

I own a Kytan and a LoS.

Id always use the Kytan unless it was some massive game. LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless. Hence why Forgeworld took the cool torso and up part and make it a million times better looking.

Kytan looks good and is good. Same goes for the knight really.

Brass Scorpion is cool, but again very expensive (though less then the LoS which further states why he is terrible) so hes not going to be in any tourney winning list either. but id take him if I played a 3k game and such

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

which...is my point you are proving. Like I said, if I had 3.5k or 4k. sure id bring one for fun. Im speaking in the context of the "average game" and tourney game setting for 2k points, which he is worthless because of how expensive he is.

str00dles1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

which...is my point you are proving. Like I said, if I had 3.5k or 4k. sure id bring one for fun. Im speaking in the context of the "average game" and tourney game setting for 2k points, which he is worthless because of how expensive he is.

I don't know, a Lord of Skulls supported by a psyker or two could do a hell of a lot of damage, you could even take some infantry with the left over points to sit on objectives. Versus say StormRaven spam, with Prescience the LoS would do around 8.5 wounds per turn and any psykers with him could do 2 more mortal wounds, with some lucky rolls you could destroy a StormRaven in a turn. Versus non-SR spam lists, you have ground targets which means the LoS is going to have a field day.

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless.

Hahahaha! Are you serious? I played a doubles 4000pt game and 3500pt game yesterday taking the LoS and he rofl stomped everything (or rofl tracked maybe?)! The necron player (one of my opponents in the doubles) dropped two Monoliths down in our deployment and out walked a 10 man unit of Immortals and a 20 man unit of Warriors, 1st turn after they came in the LoS had shot+burnt the Immortals to death and blue the Monolith sky high and the 2nd turn it did the same to the other Monolith and the Warriors. In the 3500pt game the LoS smashed through an entire Inquisition detachment, assault terminators a couple of LRBTs and then exploded wiping a 1/4 of the board (and clearing up an objective). If you have the points, the LoS will not dissapoint (especially if you use Warptime + Prescience on it).

which...is my point you are proving. Like I said, if I had 3.5k or 4k. sure id bring one for fun. Im speaking in the context of the "average game" and tourney game setting for 2k points, which he is worthless because of how expensive he is.

I don't know, a Lord of Skulls supported by a psyker or two could do a hell of a lot of damage, you could even take some infantry with the left over points to sit on objectives. Versus say StormRaven spam, with Prescience the LoS would do around 8.5 wounds per turn and any psykers with him could do 2 more mortal wounds, with some lucky rolls you could destroy a StormRaven in a turn. Versus non-SR spam lists, you have ground targets which means the LoS is going to have a field day.

Thanks for the input guys.

I don´t think any of the ones I mentioned is bad, I was just looking into which one would actually be the most competitive option.

Kytan, while cheaper, seems to lack in the shoot department compared to the LoS or Skopion, though of course it is a fair cheaper and you could add in a few things. We could split them into two levels.

BIG:
- LoS
- Scorpion

MEDIOUM
- Kytan
- Knights.

Which would you consider the better option in each category?

kaintxu wrote:
Thanks for the input guys.

I don´t think any of the ones I mentioned is bad, I was just looking into which one would actually be the most competitive option.

Kytan, while cheaper, seems to lack in the shoot department compared to the LoS or Skopion, though of course it is a fair cheaper and you could add in a few things. We could split them into two levels.

BIG:
- LoS
- Scorpion

MEDIOUM
- Kytan
- Knights.

Which would you consider the better option in each category?

LoS VS Scorpion:
I don't think you could go wrong with either; the scorpion is cheaper, starts off with more attacks and has more shooting but; the LoS is tougher, it has more choice in it's cc attacks and it's still deadly as it gets more damaged. It's up to your taste I guess, they both do a similar job.

Kytan VS Knight:
Again they are about even; the Kytan's invulnerbale works no matter what and it regens a wound each turn but the Knight has more wounds; the Kytan's gatler is better than the Knight but the Knight can choose a different shooting weapon and can take carapace weapons; the Kytan has more attacks in cc but the knight can swap it's weapon out for the thunderstrike gauntlet or another ranged weapon. The Kytan is better if you really want to get into the thick of the fight or you are expecting your opponant to try to charge you but the Knight is better if you just want a gun platform that can potentially get into a combat and finish something off.

Based on your criteria and categories, Brass Scorpion and Kytan for sure

str00dles1 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

I own a Kytan and a LoS.

Id always use the Kytan unless it was some massive game. LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless. Hence why Forgeworld took the cool torso and up part and make it a million times better looking.

Kytan looks good and is good. Same goes for the knight really.

Brass Scorpion is cool, but again very expensive (though less then the LoS which further states why he is terrible) so hes not going to be in any tourney winning list either. but id take him if I played a 3k game and such

What are you taking alongside the Kytan?

How do we feel about Cypher? I realize that Fallen are kinda meh compared to Chosen, but Cypher himself is not too shabby for 110 points (or whatever he costs, I don't have my index handy at the moment).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How do we feel about Cypher? I realize that Fallen are kinda meh compared to Chosen, but Cypher himself is not too shabby for 110 points (or whatever he costs, I don't have my index handy at the moment).

Cypher is kinda cool because you can just have him run around doing his own thing, and 5/6 games he won't be a kill point so you don't have to worry about those invested points.

 andysonic1 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

I own a Kytan and a LoS.

Id always use the Kytan unless it was some massive game. LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless. Hence why Forgeworld took the cool torso and up part and make it a million times better looking.

Kytan looks good and is good. Same goes for the knight really.

Brass Scorpion is cool, but again very expensive (though less then the LoS which further states why he is terrible) so hes not going to be in any tourney winning list either. but id take him if I played a 3k game and such

What are you taking alongside the Kytan?

Well still I havent decided. I want to try and make something competitive around them. I love all models, but preffer kytan over regular knight and while I love the scorpion, I think LoS is better looking

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How do we feel about Cypher? I realize that Fallen are kinda meh compared to Chosen, but Cypher himself is not too shabby for 110 points (or whatever he costs, I don't have my index handy at the moment).

Cypher is kinda cool because you can just have him run around doing his own thing, and 5/6 games he won't be a kill point so you don't have to worry about those invested points.

I'm running a fallen themed chaos army this ed and i'm struggling to find a place for him, as his role is a bit average. He cant jump into transports and his aura only effects fallen, which are a sub par elite choice compared to chosen.

He will end up being a foot slogger with or without a squad of fallen accompanying him. Maybe they play a role holding down objectives and responding to deep strikes? I need to play test them a bit more but so far im not really loving them, which is frustrating given the theme of my army.

Has anyone got any suggestions on how to use cypher and the fallen effectively?

Give Fallen combi-bolters, and run them in squads of 5/6 this makes them 16pts each and makes them comparable to noise marines at shooting at long range, while superior at short range.

6 Fallen (combi-bolters) = 96 pts putting out 12 shots at long range and 24 shots at short range

5 Noise marines = 100 pts puts out 15 shots at all ranges

Except fallen can't ride intransports so it's really hard to get them into that close range. I love fallen butas of now they're useless without a way to get into range. Hopefully the chaos dex gives them infiltrate of some sort

What about giving a unit of Fallen a heavy weapon? I feel like they could benefit from an Autocannon or Heavy Bolter. Granted, they'd get -1 to hit if they move, but it would increase their firepower. Or perhaps melee Fallen? Yes, they have to footslog, but they could at least provide a distraction/deterrent in the backfield, and if they do see melee combat and Cypher is close by, they could be fairly dangerous.

So chapter tactics have rendered vanilla marines superior in every way. How the hell do we conquer konor now?

macluvin wrote:
So chapter tactics have rendered vanilla marines superior in every way. How the hell do we conquer konor now?

.. wait for out own codex?

What chapter tactics ?

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
What chapter tactics ?

Chapter tactics in the new Space Marine Codex coming out at the end of this month, Ultramarine CT gives infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts the ability to retreat from combat and fire at -1BS.

 mrhappyface wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
What chapter tactics ?

Chapter tactics in the new Space Marine Codex coming out at the end of this month, Ultramarine CT gives infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts the ability to retreat from combat and fire at -1BS.

And, because that wasn't quite good enough, a bonus Ld on top.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
What chapter tactics ?

Chapter tactics in the new Space Marine Codex coming out at the end of this month, Ultramarine CT gives infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts the ability to retreat from combat and fire at -1BS.

And, because that wasn't quite good enough, a bonus Ld on top.

Aye, but before we march into Nottingham and burn the GW rules writers at the stake shall we first see what the rest of the Chapter tactics are and what the Legion rules are?

Ooh, didn't know they were already leek

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
Ooh, didn't know they were already leek

Not really leaked:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/14/ultramarines-and-the-redemptor-dreadnought-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/

Is a chaos lord with 2 lightning claws and a combi melta mounted on a bike still legal ? I know you can mount meltas on your bike for chaos bikers and in 7th you could mount combis on the bike.

 Rydria wrote:
Is a chaos lord with 2 lightning claws and a combi melta mounted on a bike still legal ? I know you can mount meltas on your bike for chaos bikers and in 7th you could mount combis on the bike.

You can't change the combi-bolter mounted on the bike, only what the Lord carries in his hands.

Once we get legion rules, we'll be fine.

For example, you might notice that every World Eaters unit currently has the rule "blood for the blood god!"

Imagine if World Eaters armies gained that special rule on every unit for being part of a World Eaters Detachment.

How would you feel about the balance scales then?

 luke1705 wrote:
Once we get legion rules, we'll be fine.

For example, you might notice that every World Eaters unit currently has the rule "blood for the blood god!"

Imagine if World Eaters armies gained that special rule on every unit for being part of a World Eaters Detachment.

How would you feel about the balance scales then?

Khorne Terminators dropped from the sky for those tasty turn 1 charges? Either kitted out fully with Power fists or Lightning claws? Either 22x S8 AP-3 Dd3 attacks or 32x S4 AP-2 D1 attacks re-rolling to wound? I'm licking my lips just thinking about it...

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Is a chaos lord with 2 lightning claws and a combi melta mounted on a bike still legal ? I know you can mount meltas on your bike for chaos bikers and in 7th you could mount combis on the bike.

You can't change the combi-bolter mounted on the bike, only what the Lord carries in his hands.

Shame I was at work and couldn't check, thanks for the reply.

I doubt blood for the blood god will be your legion tactic, pretty sure it is intended to be the defining rule for khorne berserkers (with Kharn more or less being a berserker lord) though it would be terrifying.

I'd be happy if they made daemons and mortals Mark of Chaos do the same thing... I always got confused last edition for some reason. Plus the extra strength and attack are pretty nice

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I'd be happy if they made daemons and mortals Mark of Chaos do the same thing... I always got confused last edition for some reason. Plus the extra strength and attack are pretty nice

The most confusing thing is that Nurgle and Death Guard cult units get the same bonus but the other Daemons and cult units get different bonuses.

Has anyone had much luck with warpsmiths.

Never bothered with them before but looking at it they seem like quite the fireplatform now

melta guns shot
d6 flamer shots
whack a combi melta on him, another melta shot!
then 18" mortal wound curse to vehicles

biggest let down though i guess is the pretty hefty points cost and lack of inv save

 Latro_ wrote:
Has anyone had much luck with warpsmiths.

Never bothered with them before but looking at it they seem like quite the fireplatform now

melta guns shot
d6 flamer shots
whack a combi melta on him, another melta shot!
then 18" mortal wound curse to vehicles

biggest let down though i guess is the pretty hefty points cost and lack of inv save

For me the biggest let down is the lack of mobility, he can't keep up with the rest of my army.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Has anyone had much luck with warpsmiths.

Never bothered with them before but looking at it they seem like quite the fireplatform now

For me the biggest let down is the lack of mobility, he can't keep up with the rest of my army.

Index is following the last edition: Marines can put their Techmarine on bike, but Chaos Warpsmith has to footslog. And this is a severe handicap. Thanks GW!

What is the verdict on Abaddon with his new 8th rules?

Is he worth it as a Warlord and how do you get the most out of him?

Gibs55 wrote:
What is the verdict on Abaddon with his new 8th rules?

Is he worth it as a Warlord and how do you get the most out of him?

This edition, his best use seems to be to sit in the middle of some form of parking lot and give re-rolls.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
What is the verdict on Abaddon with his new 8th rules?

Is he worth it as a Warlord and how do you get the most out of him?

This edition, his best use seems to be to sit in the middle of some form of parking lot and give re-rolls.

Right so his combat ability is not great for the points, just the re-roll to hot for units within 6"?

Gibs55 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
What is the verdict on Abaddon with his new 8th rules?

Is he worth it as a Warlord and how do you get the most out of him?

This edition, his best use seems to be to sit in the middle of some form of parking lot and give re-rolls.

Right so his combat ability is not great for the points, just the re-roll to hot for units within 6"?

No his combat ability is pretty damn good, it's just that you get far much more for your points when you sit him in the centre of a large number of ranged weapons for the re-rolls i.e. you could send Abaddon to kill maybe 1 unit or less a turn or you could give re-rolls to 4x fully kitted out Las-Predators and a Defiler to kill 3 or more units a turn.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Gibs55 wrote:
What is the verdict on Abaddon with his new 8th rules?

Is he worth it as a Warlord and how do you get the most out of him?

This edition, his best use seems to be to sit in the middle of some form of parking lot and give re-rolls.

Right so his combat ability is not great for the points, just the re-roll to hot for units within 6"?

No his combat ability is pretty damn good, it's just that you get far much more for your points when you sit him in the centre of a large number of ranged weapons for the re-rolls i.e. you could send Abaddon to kill maybe 1 unit or less a turn or you could give re-rolls to 4x fully kitted out Las-Predators and a Defiler to kill 3 or more units a turn.

Gotcha, that makes sense.

What do we think of the Hellblade as an option? It's cheap at 150-160pts for a flyer but it's weak and has no machine spirit. It can either take two cannons for 4x S6 AP-2 D3 shots, not great as it isn't S7, or two lascannons which lacks RoF. Are two cannons on T6 8W shassy worth it for 150pts?

Only version of the helbrute I think is worth it is the sonic blaster version...its just SO GOOD!!!

Also as far as cult units getting different bonuses, the noise marines ability is SO GOOD I can forgive it.

People actually have to be careful about when they kill people because if they kill my models at the wrong time I will wipe out something they were not expecting. Same with deep striking enemies. "O, you killed one of my units okay they are going to split fire and target two of your other deep striking units in your alpha strike"

Personally I'd say no. A sonic dread is same points with more firepower and better T.

The more I'm playing the more I'm seeing just how good chaos is at 0-24 inches. I've been running a contemptor Ahriman, 2 rhinos, 9 twins withflamers, 10 noise marines, 20 brimstones, 5 terms with combinelts, 5 sot with helfyre and 5 raptors with combimelta and 2 melta. Anda sonic dread

I've learned a few things, 30 sonic shots withorescience and the dp nearby hitting on rerollable 2s will hurt anything under T8 and absolutely rip through hordes. And thousand sons are hard to shift and hit hard with flamers.

The key I found to my list was to not dilute my deployment by this i mean I pick a spot in the board for my mid range units to attack and focus on that. The terms and raptors are inreserve and come down as one. Sometimes that's in the backfield if the enemy has moved up and sometimes it's as reinforcements of my main thrust.

Keep the brims out in front to stop first turn chargers andenemy melta and ifyou need to smite something make sure all your Smiters are in one tight group. I only have 2 real smites2 mini smites and 2 mini mini smites, on average that's 6 wounds which between assault and shooting should be enough to weaken or kill a tough unit.

Other general things I've seen are orks are only scary if they come to one point. If they spread out even a little and get thinned down below 20 they're much less scary.

Nids are just scary. But again if you can screen against them they die pretty quickly. Always target the swarmlord first though.

demontalons wrote:
Personally I'd say no. A sonic dread is same points with more firepower and better T.

Aye, I see what you mean. What about the Helltalon? That does have machine spirit, better T, more wounds and gains a one use only bomb. It rivals the Heldrake for a flyer of similar points but they have different jobs: the Heldrake gets 1st turn charges and harrasses flyers whilst the Helltalon drops its payload to cripple a unit i.e. wipe half a unit of Boyz/Conscripts. The problem I see with the Helltalon though is that, once it's dropped it's payload it becomes a very expensive platform for two heavy weapons.

If you play the advanced rules, you can reload the bombs for a command points.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If you play the advanced rules, you can reload the bombs for a command points.

Where's that rule? That would make the HellTalon a beast VS hordes.

Funnily enough, I'm not seeing anyone running actual Chaos Space Marines despite GW's assurances that they would be good. Everyone's running the various cult marines, Havocs, Raptors, Bikes, and characters, but not basic CSM. Does this mean that CSM are really bad? They seem okay since they can take 2 specials and a combiweapon in a 10-man squad, but maybe that's just not good enough.

Problem is Havocs are basically the same thing but better; you want non-cult CSM you just take a Spearhead Detachment and use Havocs as your "troops".

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Funnily enough, I'm not seeing anyone running actual Chaos Space Marines despite GW's assurances that they would be good. Everyone's running the various cult marines, Havocs, Raptors, Bikes, and characters, but not basic CSM. Does this mean that CSM are really bad? They seem okay since they can take 2 specials and a combiweapon in a 10-man squad, but maybe that's just not good enough.

They're not bad, but because the cult marines all have something special and aren't much more expensive, you can do better with those. The logical next thought would be "well if they're cheap enough, maybe they could serve a different purpose" but in a world with plague bearers, pox walkers and brimstone horrors, their durability isn't worth writing home about, even with a 3+ save.

I think they're a good all-around unit, but that the best units do one thing really well and that's why you bring them.

Maybe once "chapter tactics" become a thing, if some tactics favor large numbers the plain CSM will see a rise.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If you play the advanced rules, you can reload the bombs for a command points.

Where's that rule? That would make the HellTalon a beast VS hordes.

Page 268 of the rulebook under the Death from the skies advanced rules stratagems. It costs 2 CPs but you have to leave the battlefield for one turn.

Funnily enough, I'm not seeing anyone running actual Chaos Space Marines despite GW's assurances that they would be good.

That's because GW screwd up with their detachment. Why take inspid troops when you can take only elite or assault units ?
You did not find the same deal about every army ?

They should have stay with the "basic" detachement imo. Patrol, Battalion and Brigade & auxillary support, fortification & super heavy detachment was all the game needed. Add the capacity for some thematic army to put some units in troops choice (Deathwing & Deathwing Termi, WE & Khorn Berzekers etc...) and the game would have been better.

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
You did not find the same deal about every army ?

Not really, no. Imperial Guard, Tyranids and Daemons off the top of my head have extremely valuable troops choices that are necessities to have in your list.

Gordon Shumway wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If you play the advanced rules, you can reload the bombs for a command points.

Where's that rule? That would make the HellTalon a beast VS hordes.

Page 268 of the rulebook under the Death from the skies advanced rules stratagems. It costs 2 CPs but you have to leave the battlefield for one turn.

Ah, so it isn't in match play, only Death from the Skies. Bit disappointing. :/

BlaxicanX wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
You did not find the same deal about every army ?

Not really, no. Imperial Guard, Tyranids and Daemons off the top of my head have extremely valuable troops choices that are necessities to have in your list.

CSM also has cult troops, cultists and Tzaangors that are quite regularly taken in many lists; not all of the uselessness of Chaos Space Marines are due to non-troop detachments.

I've been looking at the Forge World index to choose a big bad something to add to my chaos force and the Renegade Knight Archeron look really good on paper.

It's one of the cheapest knights chaos can get (without going silly and having two melee weapons) and the Archeron flame cannon is insane. Auto hits mean it doesn't degrade too much when damaged, doesn't care about fliers (and changeling) to-hit modifiers and combined with 18" range means it has fantastic over-watch.

The weapon stat line means it's very effective against anything that isn't cheap infantry or T8 super units.

Before I go and break my bank account on one, has anyone got any experience using this bad boy in 8th?

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
I've been looking at the Forge World index to choose a big bad something to add to my chaos force and the Renegade Knight Archeron look really good on paper.

It's one of the cheapest knights chaos can get (without going silly and having two melee weapons) and the Archeron flame cannon is insane. Auto hits mean it doesn't degrade too much when damaged, doesn't care about fliers (and changeling) to-hit modifiers and combined with 18" range means it has fantastic over-watch.

The weapon stat line means it's very effective against anything that isn't cheap infantry or T8 super units.

Before I go and break my bank account on one, has anyone got any experience using this bad boy in 8th?

Flame cannon makes me giggle madly. The Reaper Chainsword is highly meh, really, that -1 to hit really hurts, and with only 4 attacks, I could see it as being highly underwhelming. That's about 25% of your army's points just for the flame cannon really, and I'm not 100% it would earn back those kind of points.

Guarantee nobody is gonna wanna eat overwatch from that though lol.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Flame cannon makes me giggle madly. The Reaper Chainsword is highly meh, really, that -1 to hit really hurts, and with only 4 attacks, I could see it as being highly underwhelming. That's about 25% of your army's points just for the flame cannon really, and I'm not 100% it would earn back those kind of points.

Guarantee nobody is gonna wanna eat overwatch from that though lol.

What about the Knight Atrapos? It's weapons will eat through monsters and vehicles like there's no tomorrow and it's deadly in close combat as well, the biggest problem I see with it is it's 9" range on it's very killy gun and it lacks <Heretic Astartes> keyword so warptime isn't an option. Thoughts?

kaintxu wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So if you guys had to add one of the following, which one would you choose?

-renegade knight
- kytan
- lord of skulls
- brass scorpion

I own a Kytan and a LoS.

Id always use the Kytan unless it was some massive game. LoS not only looks like a pile of crap honestly, but its so over coasted its still worthless. Hence why Forgeworld took the cool torso and up part and make it a million times better looking.

Kytan looks good and is good. Same goes for the knight really.

Brass Scorpion is cool, but again very expensive (though less then the LoS which further states why he is terrible) so hes not going to be in any tourney winning list either. but id take him if I played a 3k game and such

What are you taking alongside the Kytan?

Well still I havent decided. I want to try and make something competitive around them. I love all models, but preffer kytan over regular knight and while I love the scorpion, I think LoS is better looking

When it comes to kytan v knight I always go with kytan on the basis is ws/bs does not degrade. I also run be'lakor next time mine for warptime/prescience and having the double tap assault. So even at 1 wound left my kytan can still hit on 2+ re rolling ones(bel aura). Everytime I've brought kytan vs a knight he wins the shootout for that exact reason.

For the artillery guard units that Chaos can take with renegades and heretics, is there any way to give them re-rolls on their to-hit roll?

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
I've been looking at the Forge World index to choose a big bad something to add to my chaos force and the Renegade Knight Archeron look really good on paper.

It's one of the cheapest knights chaos can get (without going silly and having two melee weapons) and the Archeron flame cannon is insane. Auto hits mean it doesn't degrade too much when damaged, doesn't care about fliers (and changeling) to-hit modifiers and combined with 18" range means it has fantastic over-watch.

The weapon stat line means it's very effective against anything that isn't cheap infantry or T8 super units.

Before I go and break my bank account on one, has anyone got any experience using this bad boy in 8th?

Flame cannon makes me giggle madly. The Reaper Chainsword is highly meh, really, that -1 to hit really hurts, and with only 4 attacks, I could see it as being highly underwhelming. That's about 25% of your army's points just for the flame cannon really, and I'm not 100% it would earn back those kind of points.

Guarantee nobody is gonna wanna eat overwatch from that though lol.

Yeah, the Chainfist is definitely meh, at least it can eat through buildings . But that's why it's so cheap (for a Knight) even though it is faster and has more wounds than a vanilla knight. Given the fact that you're going to be able to choose who you are in combat with, I imagine a lot of time you'll flame vehicles (ideally fliers) then charge infantry to squish under your feet.

Been very tempted to try a slaanesh chaos lord on steed of slaanesh with duel lightning claws, 6 re-rolling to hit, re-rolling to wound attacks seems pretty good.

 Rydria wrote:
Been very tempted to try a slaanesh chaos lord on steed of slaanesh with duel lightning claws, 6 re-rolling to hit, re-rolling to wound attacks seems pretty good.

That's not a bad build. He also has the 2X S4/AP-/Dam 1 attacks from the steeds, and you can take the warlord trait that grants +1 attack when charging. But you'll be relegating him to to bully infantry with S4. Unless you get a Herald into melee with him. I think its worth swapping out a claw for a power/chain fist for the better strength and damage.

So far I've played a deep striking Terminator lord with Combi-bolter and Chainfist in a Lustwing list, and a bike lord with the two combi-bolters and chainfist. Both were good but my go to has been a power armor Lord with just a combi-bolter and power sword. Either camping with my MSU Blastermaster squads and Sonic Dreadnoughts handing our re-rolls. Or advancing with my dismounted Sonic Blaster squads. Its a real shame that he can't take a Sonic Blaster or any assault weapons outside of a combi-flamer though.

 Sersi wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Been very tempted to try a slaanesh chaos lord on steed of slaanesh with duel lightning claws, 6 re-rolling to hit, re-rolling to wound attacks seems pretty good.

That's not a bad build. He also has the 2X S4/AP-/Dam 1 attacks from the steeds, and you can take the warlord trait that grants +1 attack when charging. But you'll be relegating him to to bully infantry with S4. Unless you get a Herald into melee with him. I think its worth swapping out a claw for a power/chain fist for the better strength and damage.

So far I've played a deep striking Terminator lord with Combi-bolter and Chainfist in a Lustwing list, and a bike lord with the two combi-bolters and chainfist. Both were good but my go to has been a power armor Lord with just a combi-bolter and power sword. Either camping with my MSU Blastermaster squads and Sonic Dreadnoughts handing our re-rolls. Or advancing with my dismounted Sonic Blaster squads. Its a real shame that he can't take a Sonic Blaster or any assault weapons outside of a combi-flamer though.

This is the list i'm planning to play today at locals it hasn't been thought threw much it is mainly models I want to try out like the two squads of terminators (squads are numbered 6 mainly for fluff reasons)

Battalion
Daemon prince - 180 (wings, talons)
Chaos Lord - 126 (bike, x2 claws)

x6 terminators - 250 (5 power swords, 1 chainfist, 6 combi-bolters, icon of excess)
x6 terminators - 255 (5 power axes, 1 chainfist, 6 combi-bolters, icon of excess) (There are no rules for power spears anymore so counting them as axes)

x6 Noise marines - 120 (x6 sonic blasters)
x6 Noise marines - 120 (x6 sonic blasters)
x6 Noise marines - 120 (x6 sonic blasters)

Sonic Hellbrute - 171 (scourge, x2 blastmaster)
Sonic Hellbrute - 171 (scourge, x2 blastmaster)
Hellforged Sicaran - 285 (x2 lascannon, twin accelerator autocannon)
Helldrake - 198 (Baleflamer)

Can someone tell me why plaguebearer are considered so good?

I keep looking at them and they don't seem to have anything over the top. They lost the -1 to hit pretty easily and you can also get disgusting resiliency on your pox walkers for less.

 Sersi wrote:

That's not a bad build. He also has the 2X S4/AP-/Dam 1 attacks from the steeds, and you can take the warlord trait that grants +1 attack when charging. But you'll be relegating him to to bully infantry with S4. Unless you get a Herald into melee with him. I think its worth swapping out a claw for a power/chain fist for the better strength and damage.

So far I've played a deep striking Terminator lord with Combi-bolter and Chainfist in a Lustwing list, and a bike lord with the two combi-bolters and chainfist. Both were good but my go to has been a power armor Lord with just a combi-bolter and power sword. Either camping with my MSU Blastermaster squads and Sonic Dreadnoughts handing our re-rolls. Or advancing with my dismounted Sonic Blaster squads. Its a real shame that he can't take a Sonic Blaster or any assault weapons outside of a combi-flamer though.

Can't take a chainfist on a bike lord, unfortunately.

kaintxu wrote:
Can someone tell me why plaguebearer are considered so good?

I keep looking at them and they don't seem to have anything over the top. They lost the -1 to hit pretty easily and you can also get disgusting resiliency on your pox walkers for less.

For 2 points more than a poxwalker you get one more thougness a 5++ and the 5+ disgusting resilient. Poxwalkers have no save other than disgunsting resilient.

The plaguebearers also get to reroll ones to hit, from their poisoned weapons.

You also can make greater blobs with them and over 20 models in the unit they are harder to hit for the enemy.

Ended up playing the following list, which did pretty good, played the relic which my daemon prince seized on my first turn with his 12 inch move, then got it back into my deployment with his 9 inch warp time behind my 3 hellbrutes who moved up to protect him, my terminators both succeeded on there 9inch charges 1 of which needed a command re-roll, killing my opponents two 10 man scout squads and 4 intercessors in 1 primeris squad with a combination of shooting and charging, both terminator squads sadly got slaughtered by Guliman + a imperial knight (battle cannon + avenger gatling cannon) but they did there job, the knight eventually got taken out by the combined shooting from the hellbrutes and the sicaran on turn 3 where my opponent conceded since he only had 5 veterans with flamers and a rhino with any hope of getting to my daemon prince who could have easily dealt with them especially with 3 hellbrutes and a sicaran to get threw.

My army (Emperor's children)

Battalion

HQ
Daemon prince - 180 (wings, talons)
Chaos Lord - 80 (x1 power sword, combi-bolter)

Elites
x6 terminators - 250 (5 power swords, 1 chainfist, 6 combi-bolters, icon of excess)
x6 terminators - 250 (5 power maul, 1 chainfist, 6 combi-bolters, icon of excess)
Sonic Hellbrute - 171 (scourge, x2 blastmaster)
Sonic Hellbrute - 171 (scourge, x2 blastmaster)
Sonic Hellbrute - 171 (scourge, x2 blastmaster)

Troops
x6 Noise marines - 144 (x5 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
x6 Noise marines - 144 (x5 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
x6 Noise marines - 144 (x5 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)

Heavy
Hellforged Sicaran - 295 (x2 lascannon, twin accelerator autocannon, heavy bolter)

Opponents army (Ultramarines) (No idea what formations, I think it was just a battalion and two super heavy aux)

Lord of war
Guliman
Imperial knight (battle cannon, avenger gatling cannon, heavy stubber)

HQ
Tigerius
Chaplain (storm bolter, crozius)

Elites
Veterans x5 flamers (In rhino x2 storm bolter)
Veterans x5 flamers (In rhino x2 storm bolter)

Troops
x10 scout snipers
x10 scout snipers
x5 Primeris intercessors
x5 Primeris intercessors

 Darksider wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
Can someone tell me why plaguebearer are considered so good?

I keep looking at them and they don't seem to have anything over the top. They lost the -1 to hit pretty easily and you can also get disgusting resiliency on your pox walkers for less.

For 2 points more than a poxwalker you get one more thougness a 5++ and the 5+ disgusting resilient. Poxwalkers have no save other than disgunsting resilient.

The plaguebearers also get to reroll ones to hit, from their poisoned weapons.

You also can make greater blobs with them and over 20 models in the unit they are harder to hit for the enemy.

also they move 5" not 4"

no fearless thou, which is the big thing for poxwalkers

What are some good options for anti air?

I've been thinking of getting a Xiphon Interceptor. It would have 2 lascannon shots and D3 soulstalker missile shots, hitting flyers on a 2+, and if there were no flyers it could target ground vehicles and suffers no penalty to hit for moving.

Remember stuff with the fly key word can attack flyers in CC

so warp talons, daemon princes etc... opens up some options

Nice report and cool army. But how did the daemonprince take the relic, it is only allowed to get picked up by infantry models?

GorillaWarfare wrote:
What are some good options for anti air?

I've been thinking of getting a Xiphon Interceptor. It would have 2 lascannon shots and D3 soulstalker missile shots, hitting flyers on a 2+, and if there were no flyers it could target ground vehicles and suffers no penalty to hit for moving.

4 Lascannon shots. It has two twin lascannons. Even better!

Bloat drones are good anti air. They are sfast enough to get close , their guns auto hit and are pretty strong. Plus as they have fly they can engage in combat

 Intruder wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

That's not a bad build. He also has the 2X S4/AP-/Dam 1 attacks from the steeds, and you can take the warlord trait that grants +1 attack when charging. But you'll be relegating him to to bully infantry with S4. Unless you get a Herald into melee with him. I think its worth swapping out a claw for a power/chain fist for the better strength and damage.

So far I've played a deep striking Terminator lord with Combi-bolter and Chainfist in a Lustwing list, and a bike lord with the two combi-bolters and chainfist. Both were good but my go to has been a power armor Lord with just a combi-bolter and power sword. Either camping with my MSU Blastermaster squads and Sonic Dreadnoughts handing our re-rolls. Or advancing with my dismounted Sonic Blaster squads. Its a real shame that he can't take a Sonic Blaster or any assault weapons outside of a combi-flamer though.

Can't take a chainfist on a bike lord, unfortunately.

Thanks for the correction. Power fist it is then.

Just finished a test game for a list I'm running at a tournament this weekend. Some take aways:

Demon Prince with wings is pretty much a must have atm in my mind. The combination of attacks, mobility, buffs, and psychic powers makes him one of the stronger units in the entire army, even if he is a bit soft.
Raptors are way better as highly mobile melta gun platforms. Squads of 5 with 2 Meltaguns and a a Combi Melta work way better than any form of assault Raptor variant. This makes my inner night lord sad, but what are you gonna do?

Powerfists and a great buy for Champions on berserker units, since it's twice the attacks for the same points. The berserker squad did fairly well, even with only 6 dudes, probably gonna be staying in my list.

Contemptor dreadnought retains MVP status. Dropped him in with a Dreadclaw, slew a Gorkanaught, a Battle Wagon, 3 mega nobz, and a Warboss in mega armor. The nobz rolled pretty badly when they charged, but just the same, that 4+ invul on a Dread doing 4 damage and AP -4 is pretty friggin awesome.

Dreadclaw is a useful delivery system, and a decent harassing unit. I see the Kharybdis as much better, but mine isn't here yet. The part where transported models must immediately deepstrike is a bit of a pain, but whatever.

Fire Raptor is a gnarly heavy weapons platform. A LOT of dakka, and hits on 2+ with prescience... what's not to like? Used the quad heavy bolters and just shredded light vehicles and infantry. This might be our best fire support platform in the game atm.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Just finished a test game for a list I'm running at a tournament this weekend. Some take aways:

Demon Prince with wings is pretty much a must have atm in my mind. The combination of attacks, mobility, buffs, and psychic powers makes him one of the stronger units in the entire army, even if he is a bit soft.
Raptors are way better as highly mobile melta gun platforms. Squads of 5 with 2 Meltaguns and a a Combi Melta work way better than any form of assault Raptor variant. This makes my inner night lord sad, but what are you gonna do?

Powerfists and a great buy for Champions on berserker units, since it's twice the attacks for the same points. The berserker squad did fairly well, even with only 6 dudes, probably gonna be staying in my list.

Contemptor dreadnought retains MVP status. Dropped him in with a Dreadclaw, slew a Gorkanaught, a Battle Wagon, 3 mega nobz, and a Warboss in mega armor. The nobz rolled pretty badly when they charged, but just the same, that 4+ invul on a Dread doing 4 damage and AP -4 is pretty friggin awesome.

Dreadclaw is a useful delivery system, and a decent harassing unit. I see the Kharybdis as much better, but mine isn't here yet. The part where transported models must immediately deepstrike is a bit of a pain, but whatever.

Fire Raptor is a gnarly heavy weapons platform. A LOT of dakka, and hits on 2+ with prescience... what's not to like? Used the quad heavy bolters and just shredded light vehicles and infantry. This might be our best fire support platform in the game atm.

Good imput. I am trying to get my nurgle more solid of an army. Will need to grab a DP

Used Khorne with 2 units of 10 Beserkers. Once they get there, yea very nasty.

Havent taken a contemptor, though I might after your success. 2 Power fists on it?

Fire raptor is one of the best gun platforms in the game period I believe. I use it with 2 twin las and the quad heavy bolters with its avenger cannon. It hovers near Roboute getting reroll to hit and wound. so nasty it doesent need to be super sonic ever

I played a NL themed list of Raptors Havocs, a jump lord, bike lord, and Daemon Prince.

Managed to kill a Baneblade by turn 2 with shooting, an assault and finally a melta drop. Then turnes on the leman Russ squadron killing all 3.

Nkw this may not have been possible at all in 7th.

Here's hoping Traitor CT make us even better!

Contemptor equipping is 1 Chainclaw, 1 siegeclaw. 5 attacks, AP -4 (suck it knights), and damage 4. With soulburners and a couple heavy weapon shots before contact, I've 1 turned knights twice at this point. The only problem is if they get a chance to shot him up before he makes contact.

I hadn't realized fire raptor was 2x twin lascannons.... that's a game changer... mwhahaha

In all seriousness, I think we are back in the top 5 for armies, and we don't even have our codex yet!