Tournament over the weekend, ran Night lords list the roughly looked like:
1776 point Tourney
DP w/wings
Sorcerer
2x Raptor Squads w/ 2x Meltas, 1x Combi Melta
Dreadclaw
Contemptor Dreadnaught, Chainfists and Soulburners
Fire Raptor: Quad Heavy Bolters, 2x Twin LC's
6x Khorne Bezerkers in a rhino
Maulerfiend with lasher tendrils
Fragile list, relying on Deepstriking to dodge in and cripple an opponent, with my Fire Raptor as my primary fire support.
OBSERVATIONS:
Fire Raptor: A whole lot of dakka, for a whole lot of points. While pretty friggin' awesome to zip around and murk people, I feel like the 422 points are too expensive in a game for something with only 16 wounds. Prescience does work on him though.
Sorcerers: Jump pack is highly useful for placing him where he needs to be to cast warp time, but he then tended to get left out to get smoked after his accompanying units assaulted.
Dreadclaw: Great delivery platform for a contemptor, too many points for what it does. Lot of fun flaming orks with it's flamer pistol though. Kharybdis for 100 more points is 3x better I think.
Khorne Bezerkers: I never utilized them well. Gonna build a bigger unit to throw into a Kharybdis.
Maulerfiend: Complete waste. He either gets shot to death, or murked in close combat after missing with his 4+. I'd say prescience would be useful, but you gotta be casting that on other things.
Raptors: 5 raptors with 3x Meltas is a really happy little assault weapon squad. They just show up and drop rounds into anything heavy, they make for great harassers.
Contemptor Dreadnaught: Does friggin' work. Pretty pricey, and the soulburners are probably not overly useful, but he murked a gorkanaut and an imperial knight in two different rounds 4x damage is pretty nasty, all things considered.
The Way Forward:
I'm looking hard at 5 man chosen squads with 5 combi weapons inside the squad to unleash hate. Sticking them in a Kharybdis with a 13 man bezerker squad, a sorcerer, and a dark apostle. Everybody pops out, the chosen put out some fire to soften up a target, and it's off to the races with the assaults.
I'm pretty sure Exalted Sorcerers are still too overcosted to take, cheaper Force Sword or not. They might be worth it once Thousand Sons gets a psychic list that you really want a bunch of psykers to take advantage of but they'd still probably be just worse than Daemon Princes.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure Exalted Sorcerers are still too overcosted to take, cheaper Force Sword or not. They might be worth it once Thousand Sons gets a psychic list that you really want a bunch of psykers to take advantage of but they'd still probably be just worse than Daemon Princes.
Which suggests to me that Daemon Princes are undercosted for what they do. Something I already believed. If they increased the cost of Princes, at least the ones that are psykers (any that aren't Khorne), then other units like Exalted Sorcerers might see play.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm pretty sure Exalted Sorcerers are still too overcosted to take, cheaper Force Sword or not. They might be worth it once Thousand Sons gets a psychic list that you really want a bunch of psykers to take advantage of but they'd still probably be just worse than Daemon Princes.
Which suggests to me that Daemon Princes are undercosted for what they do. Something I already believed. If they increased the cost of Princes, at least the ones that are psykers (any that aren't Khorne), then other units like Exalted Sorcerers might see play.
If a point adjustment needs to be made on Princes it's the talons, IMO. They might be undercosted, but Exalted Sorcerers are certainly overcosted. If Daemon Princes were priced higher then I'd be taking Sorcerers over Exalted Sorcerers instead.
Daemon Princes aren't even strictly better than regular sorcerers, sorcerers have a few niches daemon princes don't such as packing 2 spells, having the ability to deep strike and use vehicles to transport.
Daemon princes are a better unit overall, but sorcerers are definitely viable
so they are saying you can drop in some termies and then move them with warptime!?
That's how I've been using Warptime so far, FAQ just confirmed what we already new.
That's how I was using them as well. I am also extremely happy with the clarification about Daemons keywords in the FAQ. Now I am sure than Possessed with the Mark of Tzeentch can be affected by both Changeling's and Heralds of Tzeentch's aura. That means 1D3 S6 AP-2 attacks for 22 points each and can still be buffed with Prescience or Boon of Change.
Heretical thoughts time.
Necrosius aura ability is really good, +1 to hit in the fight phase.
Only effects The Tainted legion. Now, until FW releases rules saying what this means, are we assuming it's a generic legion?
Lorewise the tainted are a deathguard warband/sub faction, necrosius was a deathguard apothecary who fell to despair when he failed to cure his brothers of nurgles gifts.
If you cast prescience on them half your attacks will trigger death to the false emperor, this is somthing I've been doing with large squads of slaanesh raptors it can do some brutal damage.
Speaking of Prescience, I watched a BatRep yesterday where they said that you can't die from overcharged plasma if the unit has prescience on it. Roll a 1, it automatically fails regardless of modifiers, but it's still a 1+1=2 and therefore does not get hot. Does that sound right to anyone else?
Arachnofiend wrote: Speaking of Prescience, I watched a BatRep yesterday where they said that you can't die from overcharged plasma if the unit has prescience on it. Roll a 1, it automatically fails regardless of modifiers, but it's still a 1+1=2 and therefore does not get hot. Does that sound right to anyone else?
Not 'right' but yeah correct.
Also means if you have any negatives to hit you overheat more often.
Seeing all the leaks from the SM codex has me very worried about alot of our own unit options that aren't supported by a kit.
No more Librarians, tech marines, and apothecaries on bikes means no more Sorcerers on bikes, and most likely means no more Lords on bikes.
We have one combi melta on a backpack of the Aspiring Champion (maybe a new hq?), the Melta and Flamer from the Terminator Kit, and whatever came in the Lord kit. So combi Plasma is probably gone.
The only steed is the disc of tzeentch. The only Lords are Terminator and Jump Claw lord. Bikes have no special weapons, but neither does the Loyalist one.
We have a few odd axes on a few mono pose models, but mostly swords on sprues. I expect Lightning Claws to dissappear on most units except the Raptors/warp talons and the terminator lord.
I know the sky isnt falling... this does save me some travel space and painting time. This rant is more of a heads up to the other people like me who really enjoyed the building and converting aspect of this hobby most of all.
I have a question about Maulerfiends: In the index it's says you can swap both magma cutters for lashertenderils and the profile for lashers says add d6 attacks. Does this mean you get 2 d6 extra attacks for taking two sets or is the extra d6 representing two d3 extra attacks? I'm leaning towards the latter seeing as Helbrutes only get plus d3 extra attacks for taking the power scourge which is basically the same thing.
Anyone tried Belakor this edition? He flies 14. with warptime, and 6 attacks, he is kinda like a mini Magnus in that you can cast a warptime, then move 14 giving him a 28 inch move total and then charge a flyer (SR). His weapon does 3 damage.
Thing is, he can be hidden. So, when you don't get to go first, he is less likely to get shot off the board compared to say Magnus, and of course, he is a lot cheaper.
BTW, I can't see the attraction in cultists in this edition. A basic 5 man CSM costs just 15 more points per squad but has a 3+ save which becomes a 2+ save in cover. Its far more survivable compared to a 10 man cultist squad with a 6+ save. So, unless you need a big squad for bubble wrapping purposes... otherwise, if I really wanted to take a troop choice, I would rather go with CSM. What do you guys think?
Seeing as basic CSM are only good as a meat shield I would agree they do a bit better than Cultists at this due to their armor save. I mean, granted after using a unit of 25 mutant rabble plus enforcer I am actually warming up to the idea of basic CSM with a special weapon. They're relatively cheap, relatively tough, and relatively shooty. Plus, when the legion tactics come out it will be impossible for me to make world eater mutant rabble, so I should get used to the idea of CSM troops. Plus Plus, Rhinos are really good firing platforms and my Berzerkers could use some fire support honestly.
Would it be worth it to run a Renegade Knight in a 1k list? or should I just run more small units and Princes instead?
I'm thinking of bringing the RK, some Plague Marines, some CSM, a Palanquin Lord and a unit of Flamers to a free 1k tournament at my local GW store.
There aren't any restrictions on lists, other than two detachments max.
I'm leaning toward doing this, as there's less to keep track of, and there won't be as many opponents with big titan-like things. Of course, I know that there may well be opponents with poxwalker or hellblaster swarms [as I saw on a local FB group], things that would give a Knight trouble - IF they sign up for the afternoon flight rather than the morning...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone tried Belakor this edition? He flies 14. with warptime, and 6 attacks, he is kinda like a mini Magnus in that you can cast a warptime, then move 14 giving him a 28 inch move total and then charge a flyer (SR). His weapon does 3 damage.
Thing is, he can be hidden. So, when you don't get to go first, he is less likely to get shot off the board compared to say Magnus, and of course, he is a lot cheaper.
BTW, I can't see the attraction in cultists in this edition. A basic 5 man CSM costs just 15 more points per squad but has a 3+ save which becomes a 2+ save in cover. Its far more survivable compared to a 10 man cultist squad with a 6+ save. So, unless you need a big squad for bubble wrapping purposes... otherwise, if I really wanted to take a troop choice, I would rather go with CSM. What do you guys think?
Crucial thing about Belakor is he can't cast warptime on himself. Doesn't have the heretic astartes keyword.
Better off hiding and boosting something more scary forward.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone tried Belakor this edition? He flies 14. with warptime, and 6 attacks, he is kinda like a mini Magnus in that you can cast a warptime, then move 14 giving him a 28 inch move total and then charge a flyer (SR). His weapon does 3 damage.
Thing is, he can be hidden. So, when you don't get to go first, he is less likely to get shot off the board compared to say Magnus, and of course, he is a lot cheaper.
BTW, I can't see the attraction in cultists in this edition. A basic 5 man CSM costs just 15 more points per squad but has a 3+ save which becomes a 2+ save in cover. Its far more survivable compared to a 10 man cultist squad with a 6+ save. So, unless you need a big squad for bubble wrapping purposes... otherwise, if I really wanted to take a troop choice, I would rather go with CSM. What do you guys think?
I like Be'lakor. Having the Dark Hereticus powers but not the Heretic Astartes keyword is a bit odd so I've found he's best in mixed Daemon/CSM lists. He can cast more powers than a normal DP, has a better save and still gives to hit bluffs to Daemon units. And that sword is no joke, with -5 AP your target had better have an inv save.
So with the Daemon buff he's best with a Daemon escort. Last time I tried using six plague drones which worked ok with their speed. Screamers might be ok too, I think they are underrated atm. Be'lakor would cast smite and prescience on a nearby sicarian.
As for cultists they aren't as good as 7th edition. Fair point about 5 man CSM squads but if I didn't have a specific use for them I probably wouldn't bother. The only troops really worth it imo are the cult units depending upon the theme of your list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has FW released any info/restrictions on what units can be nominated as specific legions (I'm mainly wondering about Death Guard). The chaos index lists the standard GW units that can be taken as DG (e.g. a Predator) and the FW one lists specific units that are DG by default (e.g. Necrosius) but there doesn't seem to be any indication about whether or not the undefined Legion FW units (e.g. Sicarian) can be taken as DG.
So how to play it? A) only the units with specific permission to be DG can be taken as such, or B) if there's no listed restriction (as for most of the FW units) they are fair game to be designated as DG? I realise it doesn't really make much difference atm due to no Legion tactics but I'm guessing it could when the codex comes out and I want to keep it pure DG if I can for the moment.
Has FW released any info/restrictions on what units can be nominated as specific legions (I'm mainly wondering about Death Guard). The chaos index lists the standard GW units that can be taken as DG (e.g. a Predator) and the FW one lists specific units that are DG by default (e.g. Necrosius) but there doesn't seem to be any indication about whether or not the undefined Legion FW units (e.g. Sicarian) can be taken as DG.
So how to play it? A) only the units with specific permission to be DG can be taken as such, or B) if there's no listed restriction (as for most of the FW units) they are fair game to be designated as DG? I realise it doesn't really make much difference atm due to no Legion tactics but I'm guessing it could when the codex comes out and I want to keep it pure DG if I can for the moment.
As per the FWFaQ:
Q. Are there any restrictions on which Legion I can choose when replacing the <Legion> Faction Keyword on datasheets within this book?
A. Yes, as follows:
You can only choose for a unit to be from the World Eaters Legion if it has the Khorne keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Khorne.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Thousand Sons Legion if it has the Tzeentch keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Tzeentch. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Thousand Sons.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for
a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Emperor’s Children Legion if it has the Slaanesh keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Slaanesh. Otherwise, any of the units in this book can be from any Legion.
Has FW released any info/restrictions on what units can be nominated as specific legions (I'm mainly wondering about Death Guard). The chaos index lists the standard GW units that can be taken as DG (e.g. a Predator) and the FW one lists specific units that are DG by default (e.g. Necrosius) but there doesn't seem to be any indication about whether or not the undefined Legion FW units (e.g. Sicarian) can be taken as DG.
So how to play it? A) only the units with specific permission to be DG can be taken as such, or B) if there's no listed restriction (as for most of the FW units) they are fair game to be designated as DG? I realise it doesn't really make much difference atm due to no Legion tactics but I'm guessing it could when the codex comes out and I want to keep it pure DG if I can for the moment.
As per the FWFaQ:
Q. Are there any restrictions on which Legion I can choose when replacing the <Legion> Faction Keyword on datasheets within this book?
A. Yes, as follows:
You can only choose for a unit to be from the World Eaters Legion if it has the Khorne keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Khorne.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Thousand Sons Legion if it has the Tzeentch keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Tzeentch. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Thousand Sons.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for
a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard.
You can only choose for a unit to be from the Emperor’s Children Legion if it has the Slaanesh keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Slaanesh. Otherwise, any of the units in this book can be from any Legion.
I'm trying to play pure death guard, but I have no idea how to deal with this. Do you guys have any strategies/tips I can use to handle an army like this?
Kitted out Rhinos should be able to neuter the Tac squads. 2x Combi-bolters plus havoc launcher really puts the hurt on small MEQ units.
The real problem is the rest of his list. A heavily mechanized mobile list is going to be hell on earth for Death Guard. I recommend heavy weapons wherever you can get them. Prepare your Pox Walkers to protect your units against assault. Focus on zone control and moving gradually around the board. You'll want something in deep strike, something melta-y if you can, so you can have the option to either drop in on an objective or drop in and remove one of the dreads.
Death Guard don't have access to Havocs sadly but can use Predators, so I'd recommend taking two Predators to pop open vehicles and then have your infantry shoot it out with theirs. Plague Marines are very resilient to bolter fire so tactical marines won't bother you much. Helbrutes are also worth looking at because they can bring heavy weapons and smash stuff in close combat too. Additionally, Helbrute models work particularly well with Death Guard due to all their mutations and growths.
tbonebakker wrote: Ok, I have some theory crafting going on in my head right now with the leadership stats. I'll list the units in mind, and we'll put 2 and 2 together.
Zarakynel * 6" -2 leadership aura, also can take cacophonic choir power, WC 7 - Roll 2D6 closest units suffer mortal wounds for each point that exceeds their total leadership.
FW dreadnought variants with butcher cannon * -2 leadership until end of turn if unit suffers a loss of model. (not cumulative)
Be'lakor * 12" -1 leadership aura, but only in the moral phase
FW dreadnoughts, or sicaran tank with some form of malignatas weapon. Instead of rolling on their toughness to wound, Roll3D6 if result is greater than units leadership suffer 2D6dmg.
These are the key guys ^
Samus for kicks and giggles, another -1 leadership aura, but he affects psychic power ability, so not practical with cacophonic choir.
By the way I'm not saying any of this is practical, but fun to consider.
Mass units - In theory, lets say Zara is in combat with a larger group. After having her way with it for 1 turn, she falls back the following turn(can fall back and still charge same turn). Ok now the units is open to fire. Lets say also be'lakor was nearby to give Zara rerolls or something(his aura doesn't apply yet, only in moral phase). Ok psychic phase Zara casts cacophonic choir for that unit who is sufferring -2 to their leadership for some more possible dmg. Now the unit is open to fire with the butcher cannon, assuming they lose at least one model, they are at -4 leadership. Assault phase, does Zara need to charge in to finished them off? Probably not. Maybe attack a different unit, but stay within 6 inches. Now for moral phase, if everything works out. They are - 5 leadership with Be'lakor near by. If the unit was LD 7, they are now at 2, plus any losses, and the roll of the dice. No unit will survive.
Not as useful for heavy duty units. Butcher cannon -2 leadership only applies if the unit loses a model. Plus they really don't have issues in the moral phase, so be'lakor is not as useful. But still have Zara near by, you can use the Malignatas weapon which does up to 2d6dmg, if you roll 3d6 and its higher than their leadership. If they were leader ship 9 or 10, they would be 7 or 8, and with an average roll of 10.5 it should improve your wounding chances with the malignatas weapon.
I sent in an FAQ to forgeworld on if the butcher cannon is not cumulative with just itself, like successful multiple shots. Or if that means its not cumulative with any other negative leadership modifiers like Zara, Samus, and Be'lakor. They replied, but they said they would have to send it to the rules team.
Accidentally posted this in the chaos daemon thread meant to post it in this one, so I deleted other and moved it here.
What are peoples thoughts on a Leviathan Grav-Flux spam list?
Take Abaddon or Kharn for re-rolls + counter charge along with 5 Leviathans with 2xGrav-Flux and 2xHellflamers and maybe some Brimstones for screening. This list could reliably bring down 4 StormRavens per turn and verus 50 man conscript units each Leviathan has 20d3 shots! Versus any unit that tries to charge them they also get 2d6 autohits at S5 AP-1 D2!
I really want to try something like this out.
1999pts
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Abaddon
-253pts
Troops Horrors
- Blue Horro
- 23xBrimstone Horrors
-51pts
Heavy Support Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
- 2xGrav-Flux Bombardment
- 2xHellflamers
-339pts
mcsheehy wrote: Not going to lie... Bloat Drones are stupidly pts efficient. Take/Summon a Herald of Nurgle to make them S7 and heal them.
I killed 2 dreads with 3 drones. Killed them off in his turn on Overwatch.
I agree. I really need to get a couple more Bloat Drones myself. It's funny how when the edition first was getting ready to drop everyone was saying the Bloat Drone was the worst unit in the set and that it was overcosted. Now everyone is saying how awesome they are. Oh, the irony.
As for DG heavy weapons, I think all we can do is take Helbrutes, Predators, and Defilers. I'm thinking maybe the new Plagueburst Crawler I've heard tell about might be a good heavy support choice, although honestly I have no idea what it actually does. Other than that, we can always resort to taking Daemon allies and going with smite spam.
The Plagueburst Crawler looks like a Vindicator, and Death Guard can't take Vindicators, so... It's probably a Vindicator with a special Death Guard trick.
Regarding the grav-flux spam idea, I've considered it as well but 18" is way too short a range for a dakka dreadnought IMO. Maybe it works out better in practice than it does in my head but I just see you getting kited everywhere.
TheWizard wrote: If I were to take a combined list of CSM and Renegades and heretics could I load my Berzkers into a Storm Lord?
Two issues: 1.) I don't think R&H have access to the Stormlord (#sadface 'cause I own one and want to run it, too!) 2.) If they -did- have it, most likely would only allow R&H units, like the Imperial one does for Astra Militarum.
Arachnofiend wrote: Regarding the grav-flux spam idea, I've considered it as well but 18" is way too short a range for a dakka dreadnought IMO. Maybe it works out better in practice than it does in my head but I just see you getting kited everywhere.
That is a downside to the list but they can still move and fire at BS3+ re-rolling all misses, which gives you a first turn effective range of 26". Plus, with T8 2+/5++ W14 shassies you'll most likely survive long enough to get into range. For example, it takes about 14 lascannons at BS3+ to take down a single dread.
TheWizard wrote: If I were to take a combined list of CSM and Renegades and heretics could I load my Berzkers into a Storm Lord?
Two issues: 1.) I don't think R&H have access to the Stormlord (#sadface 'cause I own one and want to run it, too!) 2.) If they -did- have it, most likely would only allow R&H units, like the Imperial one does for Astra Militarum.
Thanks clearing it up for me, In the R&H section of IA it does only say BaneBlade but I was hoping it meant all variants.
TheWizard wrote: If I were to take a combined list of CSM and Renegades and heretics could I load my Berzkers into a Storm Lord?
Two issues: 1.) I don't think R&H have access to the Stormlord (#sadface 'cause I own one and want to run it, too!) 2.) If they -did- have it, most likely would only allow R&H units, like the Imperial one does for Astra Militarum.
Thanks clearing it up for me, In the R&H section of IA it does only say BaneBlade but I was hoping it meant all variants.
I dearly, dearly hope they add it sometime. I've been itching to field it in some Apoc games with my Iron Warriors and R&H's. Would make a great centerpiece in addition to looking fluffy. Perhaps GW will give some love to R&H with all of the Imperium/Chaos focus this edition.
mrhappyface wrote: What are peoples thoughts on a Leviathan Grav-Flux spam list?
Take Abaddon or Kharn for re-rolls + counter charge along with 5 Leviathans with 2xGrav-Flux and 2xHellflamers and maybe some Brimstones for screening. This list could reliably bring down 4 StormRavens per turn and verus 50 man conscript units each Leviathan has 20d3 shots! Versus any unit that tries to charge them they also get 2d6 autohits at S5 AP-1 D2!
I really want to try something like this out.
1999pts
Spearhead Detachment
HQ Abaddon
-253pts
Troops Horrors
- Blue Horro
- 23xBrimstone Horrors
-51pts
Heavy Support Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
- 2xGrav-Flux Bombardment
- 2xHellflamers
-339pts
The Grav-flux bombard wording is ambigious at best. The +D3 attacks per 5 models is clearly meant to be for Monster, Vehicle, or Titanic units since the sentence carries on from the main paragraph (just like in cumulitive sentence re: the Butecher cannon abilities above). It's so poorly written though so if an opponent will accept that interpretation then go for it, they will get utterly wiped by Leviathans with this interpretation of that weapon. I showed it to my group and they laughed at me, so I run dual Buttcher cannons & hellflamers instead, still a good unit with those weapons - not nice to charge.
The grav flux is really clearly written there is a full stop between the this unit does 5 damage to titanic, monsters and vehicles and the add d3 attacks per every 5 models in a unit. Also please think things threw what monster, vehicle or titanic unit comes in units of 5+ ?
I mean, I've read the rules and I don't reach that conclusion at all. The multiple hits for over 5 models is standard for most things that used to be blast.
Captyn_Bob wrote: I mean, I've read the rules and I don't reach that conclusion at all. The multiple hits for over 5 models is standard for most things that used to be blast.
I honestly think it is the best blast rules for any weapon and think it should be standard for all former blast weapons.
Rydria wrote: The grav flux is really clearly written there is a full stop between the this unit does 5 damage to titanic, monsters and vehicles and the add d3 attacks per every 5 models in a unit. Also please think things threw what monster, vehicle or titanic unit comes in units of 5+ ?
That was my argument. But not many people were accepting it as it just seems insanely good. While you accuse me of failing to 'think things threw' (sic) surely by the same token you wouldn't expect a circa 350 point Leviathan with dual Grav-flux bombards to get 22xD3 shots at S9 -5AP against a unit of 50 Guardsmen because if that's the case then there is no reason to take any other weapon in the entire book. I mean it's not like a Leviathan is easy to stop, they're excellent! Against an army like Imperial Guard you can shoot their tanks with 2xD3 BS2+ S9-5AP D5 hits or their infantry with 22xD3 BS2+ S9 -5AP hits. If that's the case then 3 of these with dual Grav-flux go in every army without even a thought. Why take any other weapons at all? I hope FW clear this up because I want to take these against people who bring 150+ Guardsmen to teach them a lesson.
PS. The full stop means nothing. There is one in the entry above for the Butcher Canonons, 'this modifier is not cumulative', does that mean that's a seperate weapon entry too or is it part of the paragraph on LDde-buff above? FW poorly written rules are to blame.
You'd have to drop something to take a couple with double Butcher arrays since they are +30pts per model, that's either the Horrors screening, Abaddon's re-rolls or another Leviathan. Is being able to deal with MSU easier and better range worth dropping one of those?
I actually really like the 16 shots plus the 2 hellflamers by the leviathan even against hordes. You would need 8d3 (20 man squads) shots to make the number of hits even. Of course, at 20 man squads, so long as they don't have an invuln, the bombard pulls ahead (except for the fact that its range is worse). I would argue that the lack of range is sort of made up for by the fact that it has a better AP, but the better save squads also tend to be smaller. Or brimstones. So it's situational.
The damage is the big bonus for big things (of course) but even against a tank with no invuln, the numbers aren't great. Let's say you've found a T8 3+ tank with no invuln (and are in range of both so moving isn't an issue, even though it likely will be in game). This is also the absolute best case scenario for the bombard.
You're averaging 5.5 damage per round with the butcher cannon. With the bombard, you're getting 11.5 damage. Obviously great, but bring it back down to T7 and the butcher cannons are up to 7.3 on average. Give the tank a 5++ and the bombard does only 7.66 damage. Especially with things that have an invuln save, the command re-rolls make the bombard much more boom or bust than the butcher cannons.
To me, they're just a little too fringe to take and hope that they do well all the time.
I'm coming into this edition hoping to use some of the characters I never had a go with last time out, so how would you recommend I deploy Dark Apostles or Warpsmiths to keep them both useful and alive for more than a single round? Now that our big daemon engines regenerate is there much point in the smiths?
Dark Apostles go hand in hand with Khorne Berzerkers. Warpsmiths I'm not sold on, maybe if you run one of the big LOW tanks you could get enough value for it to be worth it but I think in most instances you'd get more mileage out of any of the other HQ choices.
Tried out a Dark Apostle escorting two Helbrutes with Fist/ Scourges yesterday. In theory a very good combo, in practice the damn Wraiths made all of their 3++...
Overall I must say I'm a bit sad about my Death guard so far. While I've won most of the games at the end of 7th ed. due to Traitor Legions/ Obsec, I rarely make it to round 3 now and so far have only lost, playing against Necrons and Dark Eldar.
I get the feeling CSM are just too weak now to withstand any alpha-strike and don't have the firepower (outside FW) for an own Alpha-strike. I especially miss my mark of Nurgle.
Really hoping the Codices will improve CSM/DG, as right now I'm having more problems with them than in 6th/7th, where they were considered one of the weakest army in the game.
Your perception is being skewed by playing Death Guard, which is like a third of an army right now. CSM in general, especially the other three traitor legions, are doing quite well.
Arachnofiend wrote: Your perception is being skewed by playing Death Guard, which is like a third of an army right now. CSM in general, especially the other three traitor legions, are doing quite well.
Possibly. Though in my game yesterday only 400 of the 2000pts were actually Death Guard . I used Chosen, Raptors, Rapiers, 3 Helbrutes, Bikes, sorcerer next to 3 min units of PMs to fill the troop slots. After turn two not much was left on the field.
Can you post your list and what you were up against? I don't think Death Guard should be doing that poorly. What was it in particular that was giving you issues?
Maybe he is not taking enough heavy firepower. Detachments makes it possible to skew towards heavy support or elite very easily. People can pack in a lot more heavy firepower legit into their lists these days.
Chosen (cannot hit anything turn 1), they need a rhino transport to at least get them into some kind of plasma range turn 2.
Raptors - ok. depends on their armament. can first strike
Hellbrutes - are not the best for long range firepower. If he fitted them out for balanced build or CC, then they contribute even less, if any to ranged firepower.
Bikes - good for bolters mainly. They are not a great platform points wise for heavy ranged firepower, unless you think bolters are good heavy ranged firepower.
Plague marines - same thing. Not good for any alpha first strike. They are mid ranged mainly.
Based on the mention of the units in his army list. He probably faced very shooty heavy armies and got shot off the board. In 8th edition, if you bring a "balanced" list vs a min maxed shooty list, you will get tabled very easily.
2Helbrutes with Fist/Scourge
1 Helbrute Twin Las + Missile launcher
Raptors + 2Melta, 1Combimelta
Bikes 2Plasma, Combiplasma
Chosen: 5 Plasma, Combiplasma in Rhino
Plague Marines with 2 Flamer, Combiflamer in Rhino
2xPlague Marines with 2 Blight Launchers
3 Rapiers with Quad Heavy Bolter
He brought:
CCB Ctan Nightbringer
2x10 warriors
Monolith
10 Lychguard
10 Flayed Ones
6Wraiths
Spider with the thing that allows him to deny the witch and repair claws
12 Scarabs
Problem one:
I couldn't kill the Monolith. He let it deep strike with the Lychguard inside, I brought it down to 2 LP with the Helbrute, Raptors and prescienced Chosen. He denied the witch on warptime so raptors didn't get in melta range. In the following round Lychguard came out and ate raptors, chosen and flamer Plague Marines.
Problem two:
The Ctan cut through the Helbrutes like nothing. Also the Necrons were pretty lucky with their 3++, the two helbrutes + Dark Apostle only killed one wraith.
Problem three:
Not enough firepower. Rapiers + blight launchers killed only two wraiths and there weren't other viable targets. Flamers + Bikes needed two rounds to kill the Flayed ones that wiped out 1 PM squad in turn 1.
The whole thing boils down to not having enough firepower. If you focused most of your firepower against the monolith (or in future an imperial knight, or a SR), and yet you fail to kill it, its alot of firepower wasted.
So you either have to ramp up more heavy firepower so that you Can kill something like a monolith in a short enough time, or you focus on killing the rest of the army and just ignore stuff like Monoliths, Storm ravens, Imperial knights and hope that that's a doable strategy. (Not always doable). In 8th edition, vehicles are harder to kill (especially some selected vehicles or titans). So, people are bringing a lot more heavy weapons to be able to handle them.
Yeah, that were my thoughts, too.
I also found my CSM to be much weaker in CC now. (Yeah I know there's Khorne Berzerkers, but they are a different army ).
When before I was able to finish off the last survivor of shooting with a charge, in this edition things seem to die only to dedicated CC units. Since Pms and Bikes dropped from 3 attacks on the charge to a measly one they lost their versatility.
You can increase the attacks of your bikes somewhat by swopping their bolt pistol for a chain sword. This increases their attack by 1.
Best is actually to equip your PM champion and your bike Champion with a killy weapon, like a power fist, or a power axe (if you are short of points). He can't single out your champion in your unit now, and your Champion has 1 more attack anyway. So, let your champion hold either a power fist or a power axe. The rest of your squad will just tank the CC hits while your champion is actually the one doing all the damage.
Well, a Leviathan costs over 300 points while that 2x shooty knight is going to cost over 500 points. So, its more of what you are willing to give up in your list for it.
Also, the bigger the points sunk into one model, the bigger the loss when said model is destroyed. Are the lists you are facing able to destroy a knight or a leviathan easily?
kaintxu wrote: So looking into making a forgeworld order and doubting wether to get a leviathan or go for a renegade knight.
If you guys had to chose between
- 2x butcher array levi
- 2x shotty renegade knight
Which option do you guys think is better?
My main doubt here is that the knight still has 12 good CC attack while the levi dread is left empty handed
I'd vote Leviathan. Knights remain relatively mediocre in my mind, I haven't been overly impressed with any of their variants. The Leviathan with butcher arrays adds a lot more much needed firepower. I'm beginning to think that in 8th edition, units need to have a specific purpose, all-rounders seem to be at a serious disadvantage.
Leviathan question; the wording of their index page (and that of the contemptor) suggests only one of the siege claws may be exchanged for ranged weapons.
It explicity states one or both claws can become drills, but that one claw may become a big gun.
kaintxu wrote: So looking into making a forgeworld order and doubting wether to get a leviathan or go for a renegade knight.
If you guys had to chose between
- 2x butcher array levi
- 2x shotty renegade knight
Which option do you guys think is better?
My main doubt here is that the knight still has 12 good CC attack while the levi dread is left empty handed
I'm still of the opinion that a couple (or more) Levis with Grav-Flux could be a really dangerous combo. Even just one of these guys will clean out Hordes easy: 10d3 shots vs a 20 man Gaunt unit, 14d3 shots vs a 30 man Boy unit and 22d3 shots vs a 50 man conscript unit. The range isn't great but they'd be a great support for a fast moving cc army.
To go into a little more detail into my preference for a leviathan or contemptor, people are running a lot of AT, and killing a knight in 1 turn is definitely not unheard of. The sheer number of points sitting in that knight is a pretty big liability in my mind. If something is gonna murk your leviathan, it's gonna have a pretty solid chance of killing off the knight as well.
And still talking dreadnoughts, I was thinking about getting a FW contemptor (I was going to take the osirian as I love the model) to go around with dual mele weapons.
Is he worth over lets say a DP with dual talons for CC?
kaintxu wrote: And still talking dreadnoughts, I was thinking about getting a FW contemptor (I was going to take the osirian as I love the model) to go around with dual mele weapons.
Is he worth over lets say a DP with dual talons for CC?
I'd personally still go for the Daemon Prince: the Daemon Prince can't be targetted if it isn't the closest model, it moves further, it either has psychic abilities or becomes S8 with 9A on the charge and has an aura for re-rolls.
kaintxu wrote: So looking into making a forgeworld order and doubting wether to get a leviathan or go for a renegade knight.
If you guys had to chose between
- 2x butcher array levi
- 2x shotty renegade knight
Which option do you guys think is better?
My main doubt here is that the knight still has 12 good CC attack while the levi dread is left empty handed
I'm still of the opinion that a couple (or more) Levis with Grav-Flux could be a really dangerous combo. Even just one of these guys will clean out Hordes easy: 10d3 shots vs a 20 man Gaunt unit, 14d3 shots vs a 30 man Boy unit and 22d3 shots vs a 50 man conscript unit. The range isn't great but they'd be a great support for a fast moving cc army.
re: the list before with 5 Leviathans, I'd still try and get dual Hellflamers on them since you don't really wan to be getting into combat and the grav-flux is only 18" range (I'm picturing going up against Tyranids here). That makes them about the same price as butcher cannon Leviathans, tough decisions but the extra points could go towards some exalted flamers or the changeling or whatever.
Both Leviathans and Knights are good. While a Knight can be taken out in one turn it does take a lot of firepower to do that. At 2000 points it's not impossible to fit a Knight and a Leviathan into the same list, I run 2 Death Guard lists at the moment, one has 3 Leviathans and the other has a Leviathan and a dakka Knight. Both lists have Typhus and 95/100 Poxwalkers. It's not really lost a game yet.
Anyone tried outrider detachment of bloat drones? Their flamer weapons are autohit and assault. So they can fly 10 inches, move assault d6, and still use their flamer weapons. They are pretty resilient too, with 10 wounds and DR.
Someone was saying nurgle herald makes them even better because it makes their flamer weapons Str 7. The issue is how to have the nurgle herald where you want it to. Probably need to summon the herald in. Personally, I think their flamer is better used against infantry and single wound types, so Str 6 or 7 makes little difference most of the time. The autohit makes it semi good against flying SR, but its just one damage each shot so you really need a lot if you want to bring down a SR with bloat drones.
I've been wanting to incorporate actual chaos space marines into my list for awhile now, and here is a useful way I'm thinking of doing it.
A Rhino filled with 5 CSMs and 5 berzekers. The CSM would be armed with plasma and combi plasma, berzerks could be outfitted with plasma pistols and/or chain axes and maybe a fist on the champion. The whole package would be in the 260 - 280 point range, so two or three of these could be easily fit in. Combine them all with a fast moving character, such as a winged prince or biker lord.
GorillaWarfare wrote: I've been wanting to incorporate actual chaos space marines into my list for awhile now, and here is a useful way I'm thinking of doing it.
A Rhino filled with 5 CSMs and 5 berzekers. The CSM would be armed with plasma and combi plasma, berzerks could be outfitted with plasma pistols and/or chain axes and maybe a fist on the champion. The whole package would be in the 260 - 280 point range, so two or three of these could be easily fit in. Combine them all with a fast moving character, such as a winged prince or biker lord.
Here's a better way to do it. Instead of 5 normal CSM. use 5 havocs instead. Now you can have 4 havocs all armed with plasma, champion with combi plasma. Everytime you want to use normal CSM, see if you can just replace with havocs instead. Have a spearhead detachment and you can bring 5 units of heavy support. Not enough? have two spearhead detachments! lol There is little reason to bring normal CSM since havocs are just as cheap and have far better weapon options.
I still wonder about the viability of a "choppy" CSM unit. I don't think Havocs can replace their bolters with chainswords. Maybe a 10-man unit of CSM with 2 Meltaguns and chainswords on the whole unit, riding in a Rhino, could do some work. I dunno, Havocs might still be better since you can take more special weapons. The "choppy" CSM might have a niche use if you either don't have the points for Berzerkers or you aren't running World Eaters and want to fill out a Battalion detachment rather than a Spearhead (3 CP vs. 1 CP). I'm just spitballing here, maybe I just want normal CSM to work too much to see sense. Maybe we should wait for the CSM codex before trying to make basic CSM work.
Nope, a normal CSM squad isn't very choppy at all. Other than if you equip a powerfist on the champion (and that's just two attacks). The rest won't do much because of lower number of attacks, and their weapons have no rend.
Chosen can at least equip 4 special melee weapons and berserkers of course are really choppy with the whole squad being able to equip chain axes and their attack twice feature. I don't think there is any way you can raise the choppiness of a normal CSM squad to that of a berserker squad. (And you shouldn't be able to.)
Well the space marine strategems and chapter tactics are very good. Hopefully the chaos ones will be equally good (hahaha) which will justify taking chaos marines.
But people would probably end up taking cultists anyway
Actually, between normal CSM vs cultists as a troop choice, I think basic CSM is better because they have a much better save. Cultists die so easily even to normal bolter fire.
The issue is why even take troop choices if you can just use cult troops or elites or havocs instead. I know they are bringing back objective secured, but these days, a lot of games are over by turn 4. So, objective secured kinda matters a lot less now.
Thinking more about bloat drones. They form a decent screen for flying Daemon princes. They are one of the few units that can keep up relatively well because they are flying although they are fly 10 compared to DP's fly 12. (but its just 2 inches less).
I have a 10-man regular CSM unit with 2 plasma guns painted and ready to play... but I have a hard time getting space for them on any of my lists. To be honest I only bring them to the table because they are painted and most of my army is not. Berserkers are way better if you want to go full CC, Havocs are way better because of their equipment options, and cultists are way better as a troop choice if you want to fill a Batallion detachment and gain those 3 CP - sure their save and Leadership suck but you only want them to screen your characters and take objectives if they get to survive by any chance.
The only hope I see for them is GW's strategy to sell new models. The regular CSM box has been out for a while now, maybe they seize the opportunity to make them somehow better on the new Codex as an excuse to sell new models. Actually, what do you guys think GW is going to release along the Chaos Codex? I see new Berserkers and Emperor's Children boxes and characters since TS and DG have flashy new models. New Havocs would be really cool too and... Chaos Primaris?
Eldenfirefly wrote: The issue is why even take troop choices if you can just use cult troops or elites or havocs instead. I know they are bringing back objective secured, but these days, a lot of games are over by turn 4. So, objective secured kinda matters a lot less now.
With ITC getting progressive missions back, objective secured matters even more now actually. Space Marine troops will have a huge advantage over other objective holders and now MUST be removed from objectives.
So I'm wracking my brains trying to think of a reason to put Troops into my list. I'm looking at the Battalion formation and licking my lips at those 3 CP's (and looking to toss all the fun stuff into other detachments for even more CP's) but I'm looking at chaos troop choices and shaking my head, My army is AL so demon troops are right out for me. I'm going cultist/reneguard heavy but the R&H troops choices suck balls. none of the chaos troops are attractive at all - marines are pants, cultists have weak options and militia/mutants are just a formation tax. I liked the old Bloody-Handed Reaver rule that made reneguard actual GEQ's but this has now gone the way of the Dodo.
I'm looking at Disciples to fill out my ranks instead of troops. For a reasonable price you get budget scions. They're barely more expensive than the significantly worse troop choices available. Is it worth dropping 2 CP's from a list to replace the crappy troop options with solid elite/HS options instead? I'm thinking of spamming MSU Disciple Command squads, with HB/plasmagun and chucking 3 squads in a transport (Valkyries if I can afford them or Chimera otherwise).
I'd be happy taking troops and maxing out CP's if any units were worth a damn but sadly they're not, unless the upcoming codex (or a much need re-write of the R&H list) fixes things. I'm anticipating having infiltrating marines and cultists for AL and that might change things but if we don't get those rules (you never know with GW) I'm left with wondering if 2 more CP's are really worth a huge drop in army efficiency?
In answer to the question about Bloat Drones. Yes... Yes I have ran them in outrider.
I've taken up to 4 in a 2000pts game. They ALWAYS kill more than their points value.
The herald combo is not great, as when you fly up the table you lose that +1s.
However, Alphastrike lists will get countered hard with the S7 weapon and the Fleshy Abundance psy power.
Fury of khorne 3CP choose a world eaters unit it can pile in and attack an additional time (white dwarf says it works on berserkers to give them a 3rd pile in and attack)
veterans of the longwar (no idea on CP) add =1 to the to wound rolls of models (combat phase only until fully revealed)
Pretty much anything that touches a zerker unit at decent strength is going to die. A couple times over. Even a knight has a good chance of dying against a five man unit in one turn.
Gordon Shumway wrote: What would last long enough to get the interrupt though? If the zerkers charged, all their attacks happen before the oppo can do anything.
Custodes maybe ? They only have to survive the first wave of attacks, interrupt before the beserkers can activate a second time and pile in again.
Gordon Shumway wrote: What would last long enough to get the interrupt though? If the zerkers charged, all their attacks happen before the oppo can do anything.
Custodes maybe ? They only have to survive the first wave of attacks, interrupt before the beserkers can activate a second time and pile in again.
Doesn't the second, and now third, round of attacks go before any interrupt can take place as per the FAQ?
Gordon Shumway wrote: What would last long enough to get the interrupt though? If the zerkers charged, all their attacks happen before the oppo can do anything.
Custodes maybe ? They only have to survive the first wave of attacks, interrupt before the beserkers can activate a second time and pile in again.
Doesn't the second, and now third, round of attacks go before any interrupt can take place as per the FAQ?
No, while they still count as charging each round of attacks is a different activation.
It's why you could have the Bezerkers fight, then another of your charging units, then the Bezerkers again.
If it's a general World Eaters unit stratagem which it totally should be, we could see the rise of more utility units like Chosen who, with this Stratagem, can reach Berzerker levels.
Or, you know, just fight with your 20 man Berzerker blob again because feth having a toolkit when all you need IS A CHAINAXE!!!!!
If that stratagem costs 3 CP, we really need to figure out how to cheaply fill out a brigade with World Eaters. They will need those extra CP badly. Fortunately there are cheap troops in the form of Cultists, although most of the troops should be Berzerkers. Fast Attack could just be single Spawn units for very low points. Heavy Support I guess would be Havocs with just one or two special weapons per squad. I'll have to do a little research with Battlescribe to see what I can throw together.
So guys, what's the consensus on chaos marines without FW units? I'm looking over the books and there's just so few interesting things compared to the FW toys. Other than berserkers, I don't see very efficient CC units where FW has the leviathan pain train, and the FW fire support just outputs insane amounts of shootings compared to the Index heavies other than maybe predators (compare a Forgefiend to a Deredeo if you want a laugh haha).
-Steppenwolf- wrote: So guys, what's the consensus on chaos marines without FW units? I'm looking over the books and there's just so few interesting things compared to the FW toys. Other than berserkers, I don't see very efficient CC units where FW has the leviathan pain train, and the FW fire support just outputs insane amounts of shootings compared to the Index heavies other than maybe predators (compare a Forgefiend to a Deredeo if you want a laugh haha).
Yea I had a laugh when I did the math on my Blood Slaughter compared to my Maulerfiends. I would point out that there are plenty of interesting units, it's just that some of them are a bit overcosted.
Choppy standouts in the Index are Zerks, Helbrutes (fist / scourge) and Spawn. Helbrutes are probably a contender for choppiest unit in the game for the points cost, including FW. Levi is great and much tougher but he costs like 2.5 Helbrutes... Especially if you get that "crazed" result and just attack again with 8 attacks, lol. Spawn excel vs infantry and are very good vs armor.
Shooty standouts from index are Helbrutes (blastmaster, lascannon / missile launcher), Las Pred, and Havocs with HBs, MLs, or Plasma if you can support getting them in rapid fire range a couple times without getting charged.
-Steppenwolf- wrote: So guys, what's the consensus on chaos marines without FW units? I'm looking over the books and there's just so few interesting things compared to the FW toys. Other than berserkers, I don't see very efficient CC units where FW has the leviathan pain train, and the FW fire support just outputs insane amounts of shootings compared to the Index heavies other than maybe predators (compare a Forgefiend to a Deredeo if you want a laugh haha).
ForgeWorld remains pay to win as usual and the nature of CSM for CQC seems to be very few attacks without it. Maulerfiends and Zerkers are basically all we have unless you manage to get a Defiler into combat where it still has very few attacks to wrestle with (albeit at strength 16). If you grab a scourge on one then it might be something of a CQC beast but also easily bogged down by tarpits. Warp Talons are also fantastic in assault and deny overwatches so they're good support to get your berserkers in unmolested. Finally, our Lord of Skulls remains a champion of absolute carnage, able to wipe entire fields of space marines solo, and his weapon has been upgraded to swing 3 times per swing allowing him to get up to 24 attacks per turn with it.
I think CSM is more about the shooty and magic as usual. If you want those close combat units, resort to our flip side faction brothers the Daemons.
Arkaine wrote: Maulerfiends and Zerkers are basically all we have unless you manage to get a Defiler into combat
I have 3 Maulerfiends and I love them, but they are not competitive, for the points sadly. From a mathammer perspective, you forgot Helbrutes and Spawn. Spawn are actually slightly better vs armor (T7+) than Zerks, and Helbrutes (fist/scourge) are among the best anti-armor close combat in the game. point for point.
Not really a fan of Mathammer or theorycraft because it can fall flat in practice. These are just my personal opinions given the experiences I've had on the table, though I agree that if the game were played in a vacuum then things would be different.
If you like the spawn, go for it, but personally I'd never field them again given their non-daemon saves, lousy weapon skill, and terminator point cost. When they had 12" moves they were nice wound soak tarpits but with all the multi-wound weapons now they explode rapidly and I'd rather take cultists. Offensively sure they're math friendly but they're not rerolling charge ranges and move as fast as possessed, who just make these guys look redundant if backed by daemon buffer support. At least other marines can ride in transports to get where they're going.
As for the Helbrutes... you're looking at 155 points for a guy with no guns that is easier to kill than a Rhino. I'd rather just spend the extra 100 to upgrade to a daemon-fueled regenerating Defiler complete with all its flamer and torso cannon nonsense. Where the Maulerfiend wins out is that extra survival and speed to actually get into combat in the first place in this edition of mass shooting blobs and save-ignoring heavy weapons.
Arkaine wrote: Not really a fan of Mathammer or theorycraft because it can fall flat in practice. These are just my personal opinions given the experiences I've had on the table, though I agree that if the game were played in a vacuum then things would be different.
If you like the spawn, go for it, but personally I'd never field them again given their non-daemon saves, lousy weapon skill, and terminator point cost. When they had 12" moves they were nice wound soak tarpits but with all the multi-wound weapons now they explode rapidly and I'd rather take cultists. Offensively sure they're math friendly but they're not rerolling charge ranges and move as fast as possessed, who just make these guys look redundant if backed by daemon buffer support. At least other marines can ride in transports to get where they're going.
As for the Helbrutes... you're looking at 155 points for a guy with no guns that is easier to kill than a Rhino. I'd rather just spend the extra 100 to upgrade to a daemon-fueled regenerating Defiler complete with all its flamer and torso cannon nonsense. Where the Maulerfiend wins out is that extra survival and speed to actually get into combat in the first place in this edition of mass shooting blobs and save-ignoring heavy weapons.
I agree with this.
I've seen Helbrutes and Maulerfiends in 8th and, from my experience, Maulerfiends will last long enough to get into combat (if you're lucky, if you aren't...) but Helbrutes will die as soon as they come out of cover. 3+ save on a T7 W8 model makes for a very soft target whilst a Maulerfiends 12W and 5++ will see it last slightly longer. But the games I have seen them play in they've both been quite a dissappointment (save for one friend of mine who did ok with a full list of Helbrutes: choppy brutes supported by Dakka Brutes, a Lord and a Warpsmith).
I play exclusively a melee Helbrute and I assure you if you stick to LOS blocking terrain and have plenty of other threats, your Helbrute will get into combat without issue and deal more damage than your Deamon Prince. Helbrutes are absolutely nuts. Chaos Spawn are also fantastic. They don't need an invul save when they're T5 and 4W. With four of them that's a 16 wound wall on an enormous base. It's very tough to beat that in terms of having a meat shield and definitely promotes a more melee playstyle with their good attacks and mutations. Chaos Spawn in front, cheap things to the side to prevent deep strikers from hitting your flanks, and the big boys inside moving up the board.
andysonic1 wrote: Chaos Spawn are also fantastic. They don't need an invul save when they're T5 and 4W. With four of them that's a 16 wound wall on an enormous base.
That mattered last edition when wounds were taken 1 at a time and shot spam mattered.
However in this edition, a lascannon deals up to 6 dmg on a lucky failed save. Named Characters generally do 3 dmg per swing. I watched in horror as my friend's thunderpuppies were deleted one by one by a simple Predator shooting its staple autocannon. Another game saw the entire squad murdered in a single round by Old One Eye. That NEVER happened in 7th edition with their stormshield protection unless you had the world's largest genestealer blob. There just weren't enough attacks for it. Now they evaporate to Ahriman punching them in the wolf.
It's much easier to delete multi-wound models than it is to erase blobs who don't carry over those excess wounds. Makes shooting lascannons a waste against Cultists but highly effective against Spawn.
Spawn and hellbrutes certainly are nice when they manage to get there, but I'm finding they die like dogs to anything better than a bolter as soon as they enter LoS. It's not always possible to go from Los-block to Los-block, especially when you have a target in mind for those units, and cover doesn't matter too much here since spawn have crappy saves anyways and helbrutes are vehicles which makes cover very difficult for them to get. How have you guys been getting them into combat?
mcsheehy wrote: If my opponent is shooting my Chaos Spawn with Lascannons rather than my tanks/knight/drones etc.
I'm happy to feed him those points for being an idiot.
Well sure you wouldn't shoot spawn with lascannons when there's better things to kill but heavy bolters, mutilasers, krak grenades, stuff that'sthat's around s6 -1 AP and people just have around as incidental fire will shred through spawn real quick.
5 spawn is only 165pts, which is more than an efficient cost for what you get. 165pts of anything else will also die to dedicated lascannon or plasma fire, it's not really an argument against them.
In my own experience, spawn are great as a heavy-hitter combat unit, supporting lines of cultists or helbrutes/walkers for some extra oomph. They excel at taking out multiwound units like terminators or bikes, and can trash vehicles pretty handily too.
I like to include them in a larger assault block, rather than shooting them up by themselves (as you would in 7th because of their speed), and treat them like a unit of powerfists to crack areas the other units might have trouble with.
McGibs wrote: 5 spawn is only 165pts, which is more than an efficient cost for what you get. 165pts of anything else will also die to dedicated lascannon or plasma fire, it's not really an argument against them.
Everything dies. That's the point of this edition. Not everything dies at the same rate. Bolters vs a Tank is bad. Lascannons vs Cultists is also bad.
165 pts of 31 Cultists is going to survive that plasma/lascannon spam way more effectively than a spawn that literally dies to two failed saves. Oh wait, WHAT SAVES??
Totally depends what you're facing I suppose. My experience says the AP and High Dmg spam is real.
Arkaine wrote: Not really a fan of Mathammer or theorycraft because it can fall flat in practice. These are just my personal opinions given the experiences I've had on the table, though I agree that if the game were played in a vacuum then things would be different.
If you like the spawn, go for it, but personally I'd never field them again given their non-daemon saves, lousy weapon skill, and terminator point cost. When they had 12" moves they were nice wound soak tarpits but with all the multi-wound weapons now they explode rapidly and I'd rather take cultists. Offensively sure they're math friendly but they're not rerolling charge ranges and move as fast as possessed, who just make these guys look redundant if backed by daemon buffer support. At least other marines can ride in transports to get where they're going.
As for the Helbrutes... you're looking at 155 points for a guy with no guns that is easier to kill than a Rhino. I'd rather just spend the extra 100 to upgrade to a daemon-fueled regenerating Defiler complete with all its flamer and torso cannon nonsense. Where the Maulerfiend wins out is that extra survival and speed to actually get into combat in the first place in this edition of mass shooting blobs and save-ignoring heavy weapons.
I agree with this.
I've seen Helbrutes and Maulerfiends in 8th and, from my experience, Maulerfiends will last long enough to get into combat (if you're lucky, if you aren't...) but Helbrutes will die as soon as they come out of cover. 3+ save on a T7 W8 model makes for a very soft target whilst a Maulerfiends 12W and 5++ will see it last slightly longer. But the games I have seen them play in they've both been quite a dissappointment (save for one friend of mine who did ok with a full list of Helbrutes: choppy brutes supported by Dakka Brutes, a Lord and a Warpsmith).
Helbrutes are durable enough. The issue is that Maulerfiends are actually fast enough to make it to combat.
Bottom line up front:
When the Helbrute gets there, he swings EIGHT TIMES, HIT ON 3s, WOUND ON 2s (maybe 3s with the scourge), -3AP, 3dmg... WRECKED... just wrecks stuff dude.
A good general will deploy smart and find a way to get his models where they need to be. The Mauler and Cultists don't do any damage when they get there anyway so who cares
That Mauler swings 4 times, HIT ON 4s... need I say more?
I'll actually keep some Spawn and a Prince near the Helbrute so the Spawn can wreck infantry, Helbrute can flip vehicles, and Prince can reroll everybody's 1s... =) That's how you accrue Blood and Skulls my friend. Now, cultists have their place too! Walk 10 up behind those monsters.. nobody is worried about shooting at them, and let them sit on the objective that the Hard Pipe Swinging Boyz just cleared off for you. Bonus points if you put a Leviathan out front of all that nasty, and a Blood Slaughterer to play too because them and Helbrutes are all in the same league / speed, they just bring different toughness and a little flavor and variety. Add Rhinos with Zerkers to taste and you are on your way to losing friends my friend.
For context, we're talking purely most efficient point/point, not necessarily most fun or what will make you friends. For the record I love Maulerfiends and I do run them, because I'm not always trying to build the nasty lists =)
It's nice to hear the harmony of opinions, so I'm not discouraging anyone, this is mine
I expect we'll be in for a big shake up once the codex drops. A lot of SM units got points reductions to make them more competitive. Chaos needs a little re-adjustment in certain places to bring it up to speed. So I expect chaos players will be rewarded a little more for not going FW. For example, the SM pred came down in price. I think the chaos pred began a little more expensive in the index than the loyalist one. So expect preds to get cheaper for chaos too, especially when for only 8 points more you can go FW and get a pred that self heals, has a bunch of attacks on the charge and can take a bunch more weapon options. No reason whatsoever to play a vanilla pred right now.
Latro_ wrote: Has anyone had much luck with warpsmiths.
Never bothered with them before but looking at it they seem like quite the fireplatform now
For me the biggest let down is the lack of mobility, he can't keep up with the rest of my army.
Index is following the last edition: Marines can put their Techmarine on bike, but Chaos Warpsmith has to footslog. And this is a severe handicap. Thanks GW!
I keep seeing competitive lists with a bunch of 'Malefic Lords' in them. But I don't know anything about them, except that they're HQ models from the Renegades and Heretics part of the Forgeworld AM Index. Review articles on the FW Indexes are few and far between, with none mentioning the Lords in particular.
Can someone summarize them, and describe why they're so good? I don't want to drop the money on the e-book just to find out this one bit.
Terminal wrote: I keep seeing competitive lists with a bunch of 'Malefic Lords' in them. But I don't know anything about them, except that they're HQ models from the Renegades and Heretics part of the Forgeworld AM Index. Review articles on the FW Indexes are few and far between, with none mentioning the Lords in particular.
Can someone summarize them, and describe why they're so good? I don't want to drop the money on the e-book just to find out this one bit.
It's 30 points for a character that does nothing but cast Smite; the Malefic Lord is the strongest testament to just how damn strong Smite is.
Terminal wrote: I keep seeing competitive lists with a bunch of 'Malefic Lords' in them. But I don't know anything about them, except that they're HQ models from the Renegades and Heretics part of the Forgeworld AM Index. Review articles on the FW Indexes are few and far between, with none mentioning the Lords in particular.
Can someone summarize them, and describe why they're so good? I don't want to drop the money on the e-book just to find out this one bit.
It's 30 points for a character that does nothing but cast Smite; the Malefic Lord is the strongest testament to just how damn strong Smite is.
Thanks, Arachnofiend. It's an interesting tactic; similar to why there's a single Blue with optimized Brims. They're both cheaper options than say, Herald spam. I'm not sure I want to go this route, but it does get me thinking about how to add more Psykers in.
Or at least squeeze in Karanak, which I've changed my opinion on.
The Malefic Lord not only has Smite spam, but there's another R&H power that does 1d3 mortal wounds vs infantry or 1d6 mortal wounds vs vehicles. And they can cast twice per turn so one of them can put 1d6 on a vehicle and smite on top of that. and if these guys have to take a perils test at any point then they get boosted to a mini-DP with like S8, a bunch of attacks and 1d3 damage with like a -2 or -3 rend. For 30pts.
Have any chaos generals had any experience with using a Hellforged Predator with Infernal Flamestorm Cannon and Heavy Flamer sponsons? I just ran some numbers and this thing seems to be a beast at murdering infantry, more points efficient (across the board) than Hellhounds (which you could theoretically take as R&H). You can even throw on a Havoc Launcher for some actual ranged threat and still be mostly on par or better than a Hellhound pt for pt. And this isn't addressing the awesome CC capability the tank has, which will definitely see some use given it's 8" threat range. This tank seems pretty good coming at 200pts with all the weapons.
A question has been bugging me. Can CSM even do horde effectively? We could do mass cultists ... but cultists die so easily.
We could try and do CSM horde. or berzerker horde. But the question is how many power armor dudes can we possibly horde, and how effective they would be.
Berzerker horde is probably better than CSM horde, because even if the shooting isn't great, at least the close combat CC would be really good. basic CSM horde wouldn't be good at either shooting or melee.
Or is the only way we can horde up effectively is to use daemons, but in which case, then we might as well play a daemons army. There won't be much CSM in such a daemons horde...
What do you all think? Can we even play a horde? Is mass berzerks or mass CSM, or mass plague marines considered a horde?
Demantiae wrote: . And they can cast twice per turn so one of them can put 1d6 on a vehicle and smite on top of that..
My book only shows them as being able to cast once per turn.
Is it possible there are multiple copies?
The vehicle smite requires a 7 or more to go off. Given that it's only 1.5 more damage, the RoI is not worth it IMHO is it, as the chance of failure jumps from ~16.6% to ~41.67%
Totally not worth it unless you are on a 'hail mary'.
Demantiae wrote: . And they can cast twice per turn so one of them can put 1d6 on a vehicle and smite on top of that..
My book only shows them as being able to cast once per turn.
Is it possible there are multiple copies?
The vehicle smite requires a 7 or more to go off. Given that it's only 1.5 more damage, the RoI is not worth it IMHO is it, as the chance of failure jumps from ~16.6% to ~41.67%
Totally not worth it unless you are on a 'hail mary'.
Yes, they can only cast once, but they do know two powers so most will probably go with Warp Flux and Creeping Terror. One other benefit of Warp Flux is that you can choose the target instead of having to cast on the closest enemy unit. Again, Smite will probably still be the go-to, but there will be situations where you'll want to do a Warp Flux instead.
Have been messing around with a 50PL list of World Eaters with Bloodpact.
Spoiler:
HQ Chaos Juggerlord 7
-Powerfist, Poweraxe
Elite
Marauders 8
-Stalkers, Melta, Flamer, Shotguns
Chimera 5
-2 Heavy Flamers
Marauders 8
-Stalkers, 2 Plasma
Zerkers 10
- 2 Plasma Pistols, Champion with Poweraxe+Fist, zerkers with axes, Banner
Fast Attack
Scout Sentinelsx3 6
-3 Lascannons
Heavy Attack
Basilisk 6
-Heavy Flamer, Earthshaker Cannon
Friend reccomended the 3 lascannons were a bit overkill for 50pl but I'm not convinced. Also I'm not 100% sure if the basilisk is fitting or not.
Also, I know the marauders are best in min squads but guards not in squads of 5 bugs me a little fluffwise but not as much as if it was disciples in 5 man groups so, might still change it round.
Since 8th is all about shooting or smiting, and he lacks both, what is a way to play him so im not just tabled all the time?
I feel a single land raider with Kharn and Berzerkers is a must, as it gets him there nd atleast has lascannons. Anyone else have successful experience in a pure Khorne Deamon/World Eater army?
Since 8th is all about shooting or smiting, and he lacks both, what is a way to play him so im not just tabled all the time?
I feel a single land raider with Kharn and Berzerkers is a must, as it gets him there nd atleast has lascannons. Anyone else have successful experience in a pure Khorne Deamon/World Eater army?
I really like Berzerkers right now. They chew up anything from troops to tanks. Not sure how you can go wrong with them in assault.
I know this is not pure Khorne, but they have great synergy with Noise Marines. Maybe there's a way to do counts-as Noise Marines or just get Havocs instead.
With regards to the Land Raider, sure, I can understand why you might want to go that way, but Rhinos are cheap and survivable.
New Emperor's Children preview article says that Possessed get an additional wound in the new dex, at no change in point cost. Makes them a bit more interesting, I would think. Also nifty to see a Slaanesh psychic power that hands out 5+ FNP, and a 2 CP stratagem that allows a Slaanesh infantry unit to fire twice in the shooting phase. Between that and firing when they die, Noise Marines can really bring the volume of fire!
Not very happy with the emperor's children chapter tactic based on my daemon army it fuctionally does very little. Though it is a strong defensive skill to have vs assault armies.
Rydria wrote: Not very happy with the emperor's children chapter tactic based on my daemon army it fuctionally does very little. Though it is a strong defensive skill to have vs assault armies.
Not at all comparable in my opinion. Slaneeshi daemons have almost no shooting, so they will almost always be the ones looking to assault. So naturally the rule won't do much for them, except help in protracted fights. EC on the other hand can be pretty damn shooty, and this is a great little treat to counter assault armies with little shooting.
Two wound possessed is probably enough to make them viable. ("enough" as if it isn't a massive buff XD)
As for the EC, while I'm not too impressive with the tactic itself, its a good counter-melee type of tactic, allowing you to focus all the way down the shooty path while STILL being decent in melee.
It even makes hidden melee weapons in otherwise shooty units (like on various team leaders) much more useful as they actually get to chop the dudes charging at them.
But lets not forget their "other" tactics of noise marine troops. noise marines are good, and its reasonable to think they might have some sort of objsec.
In a melee meta, they'll be rather good. in a shooty/magic meta, not so much.
Very nice stratagem though. very nice. and there is a relic and a trait yet to be seen, both could be game-changing.
After seeing the Emperor's Children chapter tactic, this probably means that WE will get +1S and +1A when they charge and TS will get +1 to their invul as their tactics.
Jeezus crisps! A 5 man Zerker unit would gets a total of 8xS12 attacks (FAQ says modifiers of strength before weapon modifiers), 24xS7 attacks (RIP S7/6 vehicles) and 10xS6 attacks! If they have a relic or we get a new psychic power that gives a unit +1S Zerkers would tear through Knights like paper! Also, cue Termies with 3A hitting at S10.
And if TS get +1 invul? DP, base line troops and elite units with a 4++? Ahriman (and other Chaos Lords with a 3++? Very tasty.
Of course that's if chapter tactics for the big 4 are reflections of the Daemon version but with the DG and EC following that trend I don't see why the other two won't.
Also, how do people feel about our tactics only being available to helbrutes and not Heretic Dreadnoughts as well? Means that all of our FW dreadnoughts can't benefit from legion tactics, as well as all of our 'dreadnought like' walkers like Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Decimators, Slaughterers, etc.
mrhappyface wrote: Also, how do people feel about our tactics only being available to helbrutes and not Heretic Dreadnoughts as well? Means that all of our FW dreadnoughts can't benefit from legion tactics, as well as all of our 'dreadnought like' walkers like Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Decimators, Slaughterers, etc.
In the FWFAQ they gave a lot of the FW dreads the helbrute keyword, I would check the Chaos FAW to see if they gave other stuff it as well.
mrhappyface wrote: Also, how do people feel about our tactics only being available to helbrutes and not Heretic Dreadnoughts as well? Means that all of our FW dreadnoughts can't benefit from legion tactics, as well as all of our 'dreadnought like' walkers like Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Decimators, Slaughterers, etc.
I'm worried about how they don't apply to cavalry. Sorcerers on Discs of Tzeentch get screwed again...
Hellforged ContemptorDreadnought, Hellforged Deredeo Dreadnought and Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought are also Helbrutes. Unfortunately, that doesn't extend to the other daemon engines, no (that may change in the Codex, but I doubt it).
mrhappyface wrote: After seeing the Emperor's Children chapter tactic, this probably means that WE will get +1S and +1A when they charge and TS will get +1 to their invul as their tactics.
Jeezus crisps! A 5 man Zerker unit would gets a total of 8xS12 attacks (FAQ says modifiers of strength before weapon modifiers), 24xS7 attacks (RIP S7/6 vehicles) and 10xS6 attacks! If they have a relic or we get a new psychic power that gives a unit +1S Zerkers would tear through Knights like paper! Also, cue Termies with 3A hitting at S10.
mrhappyface wrote: Also, how do people feel about our tactics only being available to helbrutes and not Heretic Dreadnoughts as well? Means that all of our FW dreadnoughts can't benefit from legion tactics, as well as all of our 'dreadnought like' walkers like Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, Decimators, Slaughterers, etc.
I'm worried about how they don't apply to cavalry. Sorcerers on Discs of Tzeentch get screwed again...
That's true (though I'd be more worried about my prescious JuggerLord, sorry my Tzeentchy brother), we'll have to complain to get it FAQ'd.
mrhappyface wrote: After seeing the Emperor's Children chapter tactic, this probably means that WE will get +1S and +1A when they charge and TS will get +1 to their invul as their tactics.
Jeezus crisps! A 5 man Zerker unit would gets a total of 8xS12 attacks (FAQ says modifiers of strength before weapon modifiers), 24xS7 attacks (RIP S7/6 vehicles) and 10xS6 attacks! If they have a relic or we get a new psychic power that gives a unit +1S Zerkers would tear through Knights like paper! Also, cue Termies with 3A hitting at S10.
Sorry, I need some fresh air.
*pant*
I know right! With their new strategem, prepare to wreck multiple units per turn per Zerker unit! I'd also love to try Terminators + Lord + Sorceror as a crippling alpha strike again: give the Termies Melta + Power fists, cast Prescience + Warptime on them and laugh as you insta-gib Knights or double kill Tanks.
Arkaine wrote: We know, they were leaked hours ago. People using magnifying glasses on the White Dwarf magazine.
Some of these traits are different from the ones posted in the other thread though (World Eaters supposedly get morale immunity in combat, for example).
Yea I have two twin las canon sons of horus contemptors waiting for coach to send them in. It's baffling that one of the most generic weapons isn't available for chaos contemptors.
Apparently Power fists got a points drop in the SM codex down to 12 points? Perhaps CSM will get the same treatment making "tactical" terminators decently costed and for cheaper fists on Berserker champs.
Apparent, from the news and rumors thread. This is based on the white dwarf issue coming out.
Legion Traits:
-Night lord trait should be : -1 ld by nl unit around you (6" and stack)
-Iron warriors : +1 in cover and -1 vs covers
-World Bearers : Reroll moral.
-Emperors Childrend : Always pile in first (WTF?)
-Black legion : +1 ld and a bonus for advancing and shooting (too small) (Can advance and then shoot? )
-World eaters : Pass all morale while in melee
-Alpha legion : Deep strike at 12" from enemies. (This probably means Alpha legion can infiltrate to 12 " away from enemies at the start)
Night lord stratagem is : -1 to hit.
The Iron warriors one looks good. Iron warriors havocs are going to be awesome!
Anyway, the print is small, so its possible they read it wrong.
Well, like I said. They were trying to use a magnifying glass to make out the small print. lol
I hope the black legion one does turn out to be can advance and then shoot besides the +1 leadership. That's a decent legion trait actually, because it turns plasma guns into assault weapons. Move, advance, then shoot plasma guns sounds awesome! The reach of a bunch of black legion chosen with in a Rhino armed with plasma guns is going to be sick. Deploy 3", move 12 " , advance d6, and then shoot plasma guns... lol That's a reach of 27+d6 inches for double tap range of a plasma chosen. lol
So, first turn if the Rhino pops smoke and than move advance 12+d6. By second turn, your plasma gun chosen's reach will probably cover just about the entire board already.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, like I said. They were trying to use a magnifying glass to make out the small print. lol
I hope the black legion one does turn out to be can advance and then shoot besides the +1 leadership. That's a decent legion trait actually, because it turns plasma guns into assault weapons. Move, advance, then shoot plasma guns sounds awesome! The reach of a bunch of black legion chosen with in a Rhino armed with plasma guns is going to be sick. Deploy 3", move 12 " , advance d6, and then shoot plasma guns... lol That's a reach of 27+d6 inches for double tap range of a plasma chosen. lol
So, first turn if the Rhino pops smoke and than move advance 12+d6. By second turn, your plasma gun chosen's reach will probably cover just about the entire board already.
Though keep in mind the transport rules don't allow them to move with the Rhino if they disembark that turn and they can't shoot from inside the Rhino anymore.
Wasting a turn to leave the vehicle just so you can shoot is kind of the balancing mechanism.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Debilitate wrote: Is there a source/link for the point cost reductions?
Iron Warriors tactic released, it's the same as the Imperial fists: ignore cover and re-roll to wound vs buildings. Meh.
But at least the rumours thread was wrong so there is still hope for the other legions.
Also, the trait is trash: Ignore morale within 6" for Iron Warrior units. If only we had 50 man conscript units to abuse this with.
But the new power and artifact? Well what do we think:
Weaver of fates - Tzeentch Heretic Astartes unit gains +1 invul or gives a unit without an invul a 5++.
Fleshmetal Exoskelington - 2+ armour and heals 1 wound at the start of your turn.
Not bad, not bad at all. Trying to think what would make a good target for the Weaver of Fates power, something with a 5++ for a 4++ or something with no save or maybe give Magnus a 3++? The armour, I'm not sure on. Most weapons targeting a character wearing this will have AP-2/3/4 and I don't know if the model would survive long enough for the wound regen to kick in.
mrhappyface wrote: Iron Warriors tactic released, it's the same as the Imperial fists: ignore cover and re-roll to wound vs buildings. Meh.
But at least the rumours thread was wrong so there is still hope for the other legions.
Also, the trait is trash: Ignore morale within 6" for Iron Warrior units. If only we had 50 man conscript units to abuse this with.
But the new power and artifact? Well what do we think:
Weaver of fates - Tzeentch Heretic Astartes unit gains +1 invul or gives a unit without an invul a 5++.
Fleshmetal Exoskelington - 2+ armour and heals 1 wound at the start of your turn.
Not bad, not bad at all. Trying to think what would make a good target for the Weaver of Fates power, something with a 5++ for a 4++ or something with no save or maybe give Magnus a 3++? The armour, I'm not sure on. Most weapons targeting a character wearing this will have AP-2/3/4 and I don't know if the model would survive long enough for the wound regen to kick in.
Us Thousand Sons like that psyker power. Give Magnus a 3++ re-rolling 1s? Yes please.
mrhappyface wrote: Iron Warriors tactic released, it's the same as the Imperial fists: ignore cover and re-roll to wound vs buildings. Meh.
But at least the rumours thread was wrong so there is still hope for the other legions.
Also, the trait is trash: Ignore morale within 6" for Iron Warrior units. If only we had 50 man conscript units to abuse this with.
But the new power and artifact? Well what do we think:
Weaver of fates - Tzeentch Heretic Astartes unit gains +1 invul or gives a unit without an invul a 5++.
Fleshmetal Exoskelington - 2+ armour and heals 1 wound at the start of your turn.
Not bad, not bad at all. Trying to think what would make a good target for the Weaver of Fates power, something with a 5++ for a 4++ or something with no save or maybe give Magnus a 3++? The armour, I'm not sure on. Most weapons targeting a character wearing this will have AP-2/3/4 and I don't know if the model would survive long enough for the wound regen to kick in.
All I can say is that at least the Warlord Trait for Iron Warriors is appropriately named: "Cold and Bitter"
It's exactly how I feel after reading the preview article.
nintura wrote: Us Thousand Sons like that psyker power. Give Magnus a 3++ re-rolling 1s? Yes please.
Cue all the 2s like whenever I try to hit something on a 3+ re-rolling 1s (2nd game of 8th I ever ever played I rolled only 1s and 2s to hit after I charged a Leman Russ with my Zerkers, this was also back when it was our belief you rolled both rounds of combat at once!).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote: We have cultists? Ignore morale isn't bad.
The copy paste legion trait is so bad. Why.
(And I posted the other legion traits here, have since been confirmed separately, so more or less right with some reading error)
Fleshmetal is great. Fleshmetal prince was a star in 7th, but only when supported by troop Oblits with fnp. Nothing else IW is impressive now.
Cultists are no where near the efficiency of conscripts:
Conscripts are cheaper.
Conscripts have better saves.
Conscripts can be taken in 50 man units.
Cultists have better WS and BS.
I'd rather have conscripts for blob screening/objective holding units.
But I won't turn this into another conscript discussion.
I'm still hoping your Legion Traits you posted are wrong.
Fleshmetal Princes were OK back in 8th but i'm wondering how well it will do now that AP is a negative rather than a flat ignore at a certain level.
mrhappyface wrote: Fleshmetal Princes were OK back in 8th but i'm wondering how well it will do now that AP is a negative rather than a flat ignore at a certain level.
I very much agree with this and your previous post on the survivability. Anything that has a chance to really do any damage to your DP is going to put him on his 5++ anyways, so the 2+ doesn't help much. Things with that much -AP typically have multiple damage, which will either kill or cripple him (1-2 wounds left). And healing one of those wounds before being finished off will not often give you another turn of fighting/shooting/whatever.
It's not a bad Relic, by any means, it's just not a auto-include either, considering we haven't seen any of the generic CSM Relics.
Since it's not hard to hide characters, you generally get to choose what you are fighting with them, so you should be throwing a flesh metal prince into things without too many AP modifiers. You take half as much damage with a 2+ vs a 3+ against AP0 weapons, and you block twice as much with a 5+ than a 6+ vs AP3, so it's not a bad upgrade imo.
jcd386 wrote: Since it's not hard to hide characters, you generally get to choose what you are fighting with them, so you should be throwing a flesh metal prince into things without too many AP modifiers. You take half as much damage with a 2+ vs a 3+ against AP0 weapons, and you block twice as much with a 5+ than a 6+ vs AP3, so it's not a bad upgrade imo.
Well, that's kind of the point I'm making, though. As you said, most of the time, I will get to choose what my DP is getting into. So I'm going to go after things with low/no -AP. In that case, I feel pretty confident in the DP's survivability and I think I'd prefer something to increase attacks or broaden his range of threats. Like a Daemon Weapon or something, should it come available in the CSM general Relics. (Axe of Blind Fury sure would be sweet on a DP this edition)
I wonder if the copy-paste is a sign that AL are gonna be evil (good) RG? I think I'd prefer mass infiltration over -1 to hit if I stand back like a cowardly loyalist. If they make the legion into spikey RG then I really hope we get a stratagem that allows to infiltrate more than one unit. Or we get to take Scouts straight out the loyalist book.... :-D
The Axe of Blind fury! Boy have I missed that monster! And it would now be viable to take it on Khorne DP since you can hide them now: 5+d6 S9 AP-3 attacks with a solid 3 damage would be so nice.
mrhappyface wrote: The Axe of Blind fury! Boy have I missed that monster! And it would now be viable to take it on Khorne DP since you can hide them now: 5+d6 S9 AP-3 attacks with a solid 3 damage would be so nice.
Where are you getting that info? Did more stuff get leaked somewhere?
mrhappyface wrote: The Axe of Blind fury! Boy have I missed that monster! And it would now be viable to take it on Khorne DP since you can hide them now: 5+d6 S9 AP-3 attacks with a solid 3 damage would be so nice.
Where are you getting that info? Did more stuff get leaked somewhere?
No, that's just the old Axe of Blind Fury stat line, Elroniel was saying how great it would be if they brought it back as a relic.
Probably World Eater exclusive if it returns. Having to wait until the second to last preview to see if the Word Bearers unique rules make up for that god awful trait is irritating.
Eldarain wrote: Probably World Eater exclusive if it returns. Having to wait until the second to last preview to see if the Word Bearers unique rules make up for that god awful trait is irritating.
It appears that emperor's children can obliterate conscript blobs in close combat, since there unique stratagem lets them attack again for every model they kill in the combat phase, and it seems to stack with death to the false emperor.
Y'all are insane. The Legion Tactic is excellent for the stereotypical Iron Warriors units and weapons. The trait basically allows a small amount of Conscript potential, and the relic is great.
Rydria wrote:It appears that emperor's children can obliterate conscript blobs in close combat, since there unique stratagem lets them attack again for every model they kill in the combat phase, and it seems to stack with death to the false emperor.
The strategem only works in the Shooting phase, not in close combat.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Y'all are insane. The Legion Tactic is excellent for the stereotypical Iron Warriors units and weapons. The trait basically allows a small amount of Conscript potential, and the relic is great.
So far, in the games I've played and seen, +1 to armour from cover has come up only a few times and I have yet to see someone take a building.
A small amount of conscript potential, cultists are still crap at surviving a stiff wind even with auto passing moral.
The relic is meh. The only things that have hurt my Lords or DPs so far have forced me to take an invulnerable save, i.e. AP-3, maybe it's different for others.
MinscS2 wrote: Courtesy from DreamIsCollapsing @ B&C who deciphered the french leak.
World Eater Stratagem:
Cancel a psychic power within 24" on a 4+
Emperor's Children Stratagem:
Activates in the combat phase. Each time a model of this squads kills an enemy model, he can immediately make another attack with the same weapon on the same enemy unit.
Night Lord Stratagem:
Activate when a Night Lord unit get's shot: The enemy must add -1 to hit for ranged weapons against that unit in this phase.
Alpha Legion Stratagem:
...It's the same as Raven Guard. Same CT and same Stratagem. *Yawn*
He wasn't 100% sure of the Black Legion and Word Bearer-Stratagems.
Black Legion had something about giving a squad rerolling 1's to hit during a shooting phase or combat phase, and an additional rule for Chaos Space Marine Squads (re-rolling 1's to wound as well?)
Word Bearers got to reroll their dices when summoning Daemons. Something more about doubles and triples that he couldn't decipher.
Endless cacophony isn't an emperor's children stratagem, it is a slaanesh stratagem that any legion except world eaters can use.
Just like how fury of khorne is a khorne only stratagem any legion except emperor's children can use.
But as you can see in the quote above both world eaters and emperor's children have a unique stratagem as well.
I'm fine with that mark of slaanesh, tzeentch and khorne where always meh and overshadowed by the mark of nurgle master race since it was the only one which was useful on everything.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Just seen on FB confirmed, Marks won't do anything, they just act as keywords to allow stratagems.
I didn't expect them to actually, and surprisingly enough, I don't even feel bad about it.
My World Eaters get +1 A on the charge, which more or less is the old MoK, and the Icon of Wrath is still there for that charge re-roll.
Any additional rules and effects feel superfluous, since the Legion Tactic effectively replaces the Mark.
This is also good for the non-god-specific legions, who don't feel like they're missing out on some juicy effect because they can't take (although it seems like they can now) a mark for their undivided legions.
smegma_crunch wrote: If khorne demons can get this bonus then you're looking at +2 A +1S with bloodletters.... I can dream.
Only Heretic Astartes I believe... :(
I've been looking through the Space Marine Strategems to see what we might get and one caught my eye:
Killshot - 1CP
If a Predator is 6" away from two other Predators, add 1 to the wound rolls and damage of those Predators' attacks when shooting models with the MONSTER or VEHICLE Keywords.
Notice how it's "Predators'". 3 Predators all with Twin Lascannons + Lascannon Sponsons and a Lord for re-rolls (Imagine if we get an exalted Lord that can re-roll all hits!) will have 12x S9 AP-3 D1+d6 that is basically wounding everything on a 2+! You'd be dropping a Knight per turn! Plus it's only 1CP.
Alternatively, go for the cheaper Autocannon + Heavy Bolters Predators for removing chaff: 6d3x S7 AP-1 D4 18x S5 AP-1 D2 shots both wounding on a 2+ versus T4.
And if this worked on the Hellforged Predators! Oh my! I'd be a happy bunny.
You guys are true chaos! Doesn't matter how many bonuses and special powers you get, it's never enough! So within the last year chaos went from being utter garbage to getting sweet formations and LEGION RULES for the first time in donkeys years, and now we're getting unique legion traits (well some are unique but they're all fluffy it seems), unique warlord traits, unique stratagems, unique relics (well arguably we already had those and they were put back in the box temporarily) as well as a plethora of extra shred relics and stratagems. We have marks that aren't auto-picks for certain units, marks that don't turn every army into a Nurgle army because their mark is 7 times better than everyone elses. We're getting special rules and psychic powers that play off of (free) mark keywords and you can in some cases draw on Daemon buffs to further improve your forces. You get all this, which is 666 more toys and interesting features than chaos have had in years and people still aren't happy!
Look peeps, if you need your mark to give you +1T to make you feel special and add "interest" or "fluff" to your list then I'm afraid that you simply lack imagination, a shame in a game that has imagination and creativity as it's foundation.
Now, when the codex drops, your choice of marks and how you leverage the advantages of those marks are down to you as a player and your skill and cunning. Instead of sticking +T marines in cover and challenging you opponent to try and remove them, well now you have to select the right units to work with those marks, and use the appropriate powers and buffs with an equally appropriate opportunity cost.
There's a ton of stuff here for chaos. Chaos players should be rejoicing at so many options. Look at space marines. They get lots of toys too, and have way more nits to use them on, but outside of greater unit diversity they're pigeon-holed by their chapter tactics. Any of the chaos legions, except the 4 cult legions and mix and match any of the cult advantages to suit their needs. A NL army can roll with Zerkers and Khorne specific stratagems, or they could go Tzeentch and use 1k Sons as their anchor. You could even field BL with all 4 cults present in the same list, with whatever form the Psyclopea Cabal will take now sorcerers from all 3 cults with psychic powers. SM's simply can't do that. And now anything can summon daemons if that's your cup of tea, letting you summon anything you feel like you need on the table that game.
Chaos are looking pretty good with what's been revealed so far.
At this point I'm going to wait for the Community highlight because these leakers are all over the place. One minute WE ignore morale in combat, the next they get +1A, the next they're denying psykic powers or what have you. I can wait a couple of days to see what exactly we get and if it will be useful, but in reality any additional rules are going to be useful even if they don't help us GET into combat. I think we will see point adjustments like we saw with Space Marines that will allow us to bring more to the table and some kind of objective secured for being a Legion.
@Demantiae: I completely agree, the people in this and the other Chaos threads who are complaining about HOW they are getting the rules (moves from Marks to Legion Keywords) and saying how disappointed they are about points free rule updates for their desired Legion really shows just how toxic the community on this forum is. For every user who can make an argument about something that makes sense there are five doomsayers.
andysonic1 wrote: At this point I'm going to wait for the Community highlight because these leakers are all over the place. One minute WE ignore morale in combat, the next they get +1A, the next they're denying psykic powers or what have you. I can wait a couple of days to see what exactly we get and if it will be useful, but in reality any additional rules are going to be useful even if they don't help us GET into combat. I think we will see point adjustments like we saw with Space Marines that will allow us to bring more to the table and some kind of objective secured for being a Legion.
The things we know now seem to be pretty accurate. At least the leaked traits correspond to the ones published officially on the WH community page. As such WE get +1A as a trait, 4+ to deny in 24" as a strategem. No clue where the morale thing came from.
Demantiae wrote: You guys are true chaos! Doesn't matter how many bonuses and special powers you get, it's never enough! So within the last year chaos went from being utter garbage to getting sweet formations and LEGION RULES for the first time in donkeys years, and now we're getting unique legion traits (well some are unique but they're all fluffy it seems), unique warlord traits, unique stratagems, unique relics (well arguably we already had those and they were put back in the box temporarily) as well as a plethora of extra shred relics and stratagems. We have marks that aren't auto-picks for certain units, marks that don't turn every army into a Nurgle army because their mark is 7 times better than everyone elses. We're getting special rules and psychic powers that play off of (free) mark keywords and you can in some cases draw on Daemon buffs to further improve your forces. You get all this, which is 666 more toys and interesting features than chaos have had in years and people still aren't happy!
Look peeps, if you need your mark to give you +1T to make you feel special and add "interest" or "fluff" to your list then I'm afraid that you simply lack imagination, a shame in a game that has imagination and creativity as it's foundation.
Now, when the codex drops, your choice of marks and how you leverage the advantages of those marks are down to you as a player and your skill and cunning. Instead of sticking +T marines in cover and challenging you opponent to try and remove them, well now you have to select the right units to work with those marks, and use the appropriate powers and buffs with an equally appropriate opportunity cost.
There's a ton of stuff here for chaos. Chaos players should be rejoicing at so many options. Look at space marines. They get lots of toys too, and have way more nits to use them on, but outside of greater unit diversity they're pigeon-holed by their chapter tactics. Any of the chaos legions, except the 4 cult legions and mix and match any of the cult advantages to suit their needs. A NL army can roll with Zerkers and Khorne specific stratagems, or they could go Tzeentch and use 1k Sons as their anchor. You could even field BL with all 4 cults present in the same list, with whatever form the Psyclopea Cabal will take now sorcerers from all 3 cults with psychic powers. SM's simply can't do that. And now anything can summon daemons if that's your cup of tea, letting you summon anything you feel like you need on the table that game.
Chaos are looking pretty good with what's been revealed so far.
I don't think the Legion book for 7th can really be used as an arguement: we got screwed over for 10 years, then they give us a book that actually makes us above average (a book we payed £40 odd quid for) and then 8th rolled in a few months late, all of the Legion stuff was gone and so was all the money we'd spent on the new books released just before a new edition. Too little too late comes to mind.
As for the new stuff, I'm much happier than I was in 7th and I'm having much more fun than I did in 7th. I don't care if this new stuff is competitive or not (I don't play tournaments or comp games, I play for fun), what I want from these new releases is something cool! I have a WE army and a NL army and so far the new stuff isn't that cool.
+1A for WE units: they already have tons of attacks and I don't really care about rolling more dice. But +1S would have been cool because then you'd have Zerkers hordes tearing tanks and monsters apart, I wouldn't have cared if we got a price hike for that, that would have been cool!
-1Ld area for NL units: this has so much potential to be cool but sadly morale means nothing thanks to either min sized units or max sized that ignored morale. If this came with other Psychic powers, relics and strategems that took advantage of low leadership (like a psychic shriek equivilent) that would be a cool list to build around!
We want some new stuff that gives more options to our play styles, not just to buff what we already have!
mrhappyface wrote: I don't think the Legion book for 7th can really be used as an arguement: we got screwed over for 10 years, then they give us a book that actually makes us above average (a book we payed £40 odd quid for) and then 8th rolled in a few months late, all of the Legion stuff was gone and so was all the money we'd spent on the new books released just before a new edition. Too little too late comes to mind.
Or to better explain it for the commoners...
Imagine you're totally all up inside your gal and she all wet and moist and you lovin' it and you about to bust a nut when suddenly -- her damn cellphone ring and she all like "Baby, I gotta take it" and she go and talk to her mom for three hours while you all blue ballin' over here.
mrhappyface wrote: I don't think the Legion book for 7th can really be used as an arguement: we got screwed over for 10 years, then they give us a book that actually makes us above average (a book we payed £40 odd quid for) and then 8th rolled in a few months late, all of the Legion stuff was gone and so was all the money we'd spent on the new books released just before a new edition. Too little too late comes to mind.
Or to better explain it for the commoners...
Imagine you're totally all up inside your gal and she all wet and moist and you lovin' it and you about to bust a nut when suddenly -- her damn cellphone ring and she all like "Baby, I gotta take it" and she go and talk to her mom for three hours while you all blue ballin' over here.
That's what it's like to be a Chaos player.
But you also imagine that this was the first time you've seen your gal in 10 years since you've been away earning money as a punching bag and have people laugh at your topknot and lack of arms.
andysonic1 wrote: At this point I'm going to wait for the Community highlight because these leakers are all over the place. One minute WE ignore morale in combat, the next they get +1A, the next they're denying psykic powers or what have you. I can wait a couple of days to see what exactly we get and if it will be useful, but in reality any additional rules are going to be useful even if they don't help us GET into combat. I think we will see point adjustments like we saw with Space Marines that will allow us to bring more to the table and some kind of objective secured for being a Legion.
The things we know now seem to be pretty accurate. At least the leaked traits correspond to the ones published officially on the WH community page. As such WE get +1A as a trait, 4+ to deny in 24" as a strategem. No clue where the morale thing came from.
No they are not?
The leak claimed IW get +1 in cover and "ignores cover", but in reality they got "ignores cover" and +1 against buildings.
If one thing is inaccurate, especially one as easy to guess as IW (who were very predictably similar to IF), then everything else is to be doubted.
Black legion seems decent if not earth shaking so I'm happy I decided to paint them up for the warlords contest on reddit. Kind of an aggressive version of the ultramarine chapter tactics, Advance and fire non-assault weapons might be more generally useful than fallback and fire weapons. Makes a foot heavy army of CSM a little more mobile. The modifier is probably cumulative with moving heavy weapons, so hitting on 5+ for heavies means it's more aimed at CSM/chosen/and terminators. The exception being heavy flamers, which will be tasty.
Wish we had more details on the stratagems, but all in good time I suppose.
andysonic1 wrote: At this point I'm going to wait for the Community highlight because these leakers are all over the place. One minute WE ignore morale in combat, the next they get +1A, the next they're denying psykic powers or what have you. I can wait a couple of days to see what exactly we get and if it will be useful, but in reality any additional rules are going to be useful even if they don't help us GET into combat. I think we will see point adjustments like we saw with Space Marines that will allow us to bring more to the table and some kind of objective secured for being a Legion.
The things we know now seem to be pretty accurate. At least the leaked traits correspond to the ones published officially on the WH community page. As such WE get +1A as a trait, 4+ to deny in 24" as a strategem. No clue where the morale thing came from.
No they are not?
The leak claimed IW get +1 in cover and "ignores cover", but in reality they got "ignores cover" and +1 against buildings.
If one thing is inaccurate, especially one as easy to guess as IW (who were very predictably similar to IF), then everything else is to be doubted.
There has been an update on that in the rumor thread. Yeah, those are wrong. But they are outdated, as far as rumors go.
I'm wondering if you can still make rubric marines with different legion tactics. Setting up warpflamers rubrics 9 inches away would be very nice. Or a berserker unit
demontalons wrote: I'm wondering if you can still make rubric marines with different legion tactics. Setting up warpflamers rubrics 9 inches away would be very nice. Or a berserker unit
Probably, but they'd have to be Elites because they'd need the ALPHA LEGION (or whatever) keyword.
demontalons wrote: I'm wondering if you can still make rubric marines with different legion tactics. Setting up warpflamers rubrics 9 inches away would be very nice. Or a berserker unit
Yeah, you can take non-KSons Rubrics so long as you pop them in the elite slot.
On a similar note, I kinda hope we get a stratagem that lets us customize our troop choices. Pay 1 CP to make one of the cult troops/Chosen/Possessed a troop choice instead of elites. Would be a fun way to further customize your Legion/Renegade Chapter.
Want to bring a forge world unit in my knight army, but tossing up between the sytrix and the ravager
styrix:
4++ save
2 more wounds
flamers
ignores cover bonus
ravager:
better close combat
heals better
faster
doesnt get weaker as it takes wounds
both look good, and leaning more towards ravager but im not sure if moving faster and better in close combat is worth it taking wounds easier, and worreid it will just be focused first... a 4++ can be very useful vs lascannon spam
It almost seems blasphemous to ask...but might possessed actually be worth it with 2 wounds and no increase in cost? They do become 3/5++ two wound models with solid melee, riding the line between being as tough as termies while being closer to berserkers in cost and having melee that is firmly good, if not as good as berserkers. They can also benefit from a herald, unless I'm off the mark?
drakerocket wrote: It almost seems blasphemous to ask...but might possessed actually be worth it with 2 wounds and no increase in cost? They do become 3/5++ two wound models with solid melee, riding the line between being as tough as termies while being closer to berserkers in cost and having melee that is firmly good, if not as good as berserkers. They can also benefit from a herald, unless I'm off the mark?
Depends how well they compare on offense to actual daemons. Who are typically cheaper.
I think they can benefit from Heralds as they have the Daemon keyword, and can take a god keyword, but my problem with Possessed is the random attacks. That's just really crappy. Maybe they don't want to make more of those kits (similar case with Obliterators/Mutilators)? They seem to get worse every edition or Codex, though Crimson Slaughter Possessed were decent enough.
I wouldn't say they are getting worse, on the contrary. The Crimson slaughter possessed were the only ones that weren't absolute trash(still overcosted), and in Traitor Legions you couldn't use those. I think they are viable now for the first time since... ever?
Yes, the latest FAQ specified that Possesed and other units with the DAEMON keyword benefit from Daemon Heralds. Warp Talons, Obliterators but also Magnus (bringing The Changeling alongside him is a must now).
The extra Wound on Possesed makes them more viable now, especially for those who don't want to bring Berserkers. Sure they are better in CC than Possesed but not all the players want to add Khorne units in order to keep the fluff.
Btw, can possesed use a Rhino as dedicated transport? With all those wings and tentacles they must be quite packed in there.
Being able to put them in a rhino is pretty cool. Makes them likely to get into combat, and they are fairly durable once they get there. Stat wise they are sort of like assault primaris marines.
Not bad, not bad. Still think some form of Psychic Shreik would take Night Lords from a situational bonus to something you could actually build a list around.
But that psychic power!? Woof! +2S and +1A to a Heretic Astartes unit!? Here's what I want to do: 5 Man WE Termies with Combi-Melta and Power Fists, then throw on Warptime, prescience and Diabolical Strength to get them a total of 21 S12 AP-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 3+! Wreck literally anything with that! Then, once the Termies have had their fun, throw that combo on 10 man Zerkers coming up in the Rhinos! Mmmmm, saucy!
mrhappyface wrote: Not bad, not bad. Still think some form of Psychic Shreik would take Night Lords from a situational bonus to something you could actually build a list around.
But that psychic power!? Woof! +2S and +1A to a Heretic Astartes unit!? Here's what I want to do: 5 Man WE Termies with Combi-Melta and Power Fists, then throw on Warptime, prescience and Diabolical Strength to get them a total of 21 S12 AP-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 3+! Wreck literally anything with that! Then, once the Termies have had their fun, throw that combo on 10 man Zerkers coming up in the Rhinos! Mmmmm, saucy!
Diabolical Strength only works on one model, not the entire unit. Best to save it for when your character has to show why the enemy should fear them.
Hopefully Icon of despair doesn't require mark of nurgle in the codex, Then Night Lords will be a pretty damn good army. I'd definitely invest in more Warp talons if that's the case as they are pulling a hell of a lot of weight for me at the moment on the field.
Tristanleo wrote: Diabolical Strength only works on one model, not the entire unit. Best to save it for when your character has to show why the enemy should fear them.
Just re-read that, ;_;
Not so great then. Not sure what I'd throw that power on then, maybe make a DP S9/10 with 8/9 attacks or a Helbrute S10 with 8 attacks (9 if a WE unit). Or maybe I'll throw it on a Fire Raptor.
That also reminds me, Daemon Princes can't benefit from Legion rules if it's still infantry, bikes and Helbrutes. Seems like an oversight :/
Tristanleo wrote: Diabolical Strength only works on one model, not the entire unit. Best to save it for when your character has to show why the enemy should fear them.
Just re-read that, ;_;
Not so great then. Not sure what I'd throw that power on then, maybe make a DP S9/10 with 8/9 attacks or a Helbrute S10 with 8 attacks (9 if a WE unit). Or maybe I'll throw it on a Fire Raptor.
That also reminds me, Daemon Princes can't benefit from Legion rules if it's still infantry, bikes and Helbrutes. Seems like an oversight :/
I was wondering that though they can easily fix it to be infantry, bikes, helbrutes and characters.
There is a psychic shriek style power in the slaaneshi discipline.. but it is so so bad.
But maybe could have some value tagging a steed Herald to a NL list (They are good anyway)
So, Diabolic Strength. I was looking over the Contemptor Dread, contemplating putting one in my list when I decided to check out the NL reveal. I immediately thought I'd look at how that psychic power might affect a Contemptor. Holy fookin shizle! You can have a S16 dread, with double chainsaw claw thing (AP-4, D4), 6 attacks, hitting a Land Raider on 2's, wounding on 2's, 6+ save unless if somehow has an invul save and a potential of 24 damage per round. With a 16.6% chance to miss a hit, same chance of failing to wound, and same chance of a wound being saved there's a damned good chance enough damage is going through that armour to kill it in one turn. Let me say that again - A HELFORGED CONTEMPTOR DREAD CAN ONE SHOT A LAND RAIDER! And the icing on the cake is if the Lr was at full health, statistically you're gonna heal up 5 wounds! Now ok you're saying, if it needs to heal 5 wounds then it's only hitting on 3's, but you can afford for 2 attacks to not penetrate and still kill the thing in one round...
I was thinking about building up a cool looking dread for my AL, calling it The Beast and converting it to fit my warband. I think I just found the beast for the job! Bloody thing is only 260ish points with a bling havoc launcher for funsies. And a sorcerer is hardly a tax. Hell you can even make both Tzeentch and go ahead and give him a 4++ with 3++ in combat too! How do you deal with a dread who is 50% invul to damage and can heal up pretty much any damage you can dish out by tearing open a LR and eating it's contents like it's a bag of sweets?
Oh and hellbrutes (which a contemptor is now) are -1 to hit at +12"in AL (*if* the rumours are correct and they've been fairly spot on so far). If you're in 12" then you're lunch. If your're over 12", good frickin luck trying to make the damage stick. I guess I should start practising shouting RAMPAGE every time this thing gets into enemy lines :-D
My Fire Raptor finally arrived! Before I go ahead and build it I wanna get some opinions on what is the best loadout, my instinct is to go for:
Chaos Fire Raptor
- Twin Bolt Cannon
- 2x Quad Heavy Bolters
- 2x Twin Lascannons
-422pts
That's 10x Bolt Shots, 24x heavy Bolter shots and 4x Lascannon shots.
I'm also wondering whether it would be a nice idea to either give it Tzeentch keyword and psychic for a 5++ or Slaanesh Keyword for a 5+++, could be very tasty! Also, the NL strategem could give it a -2 to hit! Scratch that, infantry only. :/
(I'm painting it up to join my Night Lords airborn wing, currently consisting of a DP, Jump pack Sorceror, Raptor unit, Heldrake and Hellblade. Though I'm not building it tonight as I'm not entirely sober.)
mrhappyface wrote: My Fire Raptor finally arrived! Before I go ahead and build it I wanna get some opinions on what is the best loadout, my instinct is to go for:
Chaos Fire Raptor
- Twin Bolt Cannon
- 2x Quad Heavy Bolters
- 2x Twin Lascannons
-422pts
That's 10x Bolt Shots, 24x heavy Bolter shots and 4x Lascannon shots.
I'm also wondering whether it would be a nice idea to either give it Tzeentch keyword and psychic for a 5++ or Slaanesh Keyword for a 5+++, could be very tasty! Also, the NL strategem could give it a -2 to hit! Scratch that, infantry only. :/
(I'm painting it up to join my Night Lords airborn wing, currently consisting of a DP, Jump pack Sorceror, Raptor unit, Heldrake and Hellblade. Though I'm not building it tonight as I'm not entirely sober.)
I'm not convinced that the Lascannons are worth it over the standard missiles.
I have a Fireraptor...and I didn't realize that you could give it keywords (ie, Tzeentch)... are you sure that's kosher?
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
Reposting from the news & rumors thread. A Jump Pack Sorcerer with this and Infernal Gaze is probably a better sniper than any actual snipers other factions get.
whembly wrote:I'm not convinced that the Lascannons are worth it over the standard missiles.
I have a Fireraptor...and I didn't realize that you could give it keywords (ie, Tzeentch)... are you sure that's kosher?
I wanna take double lascannon because I see a lot of T8 locally (LRBT, Knights, Morkanaughts, etc.) and that 3+ to wound really helps against those things.
Yep, they have <MARK OF CHAOS> so we can go wild with the Psychic powers.
mcsheehy wrote:@ Mr Happyface -
Heres a few customisable loadouts for your raptor. Make a copy and try different targets.
Can a Fire Raptor be magnetized? If so, that would totally be the way to go since it's an expensive model. I don't use FW models (not from a lack of desire or dislike of FW or anything, but more financial reasons), but if I did I would magnetize them since then I wouldn't have to get as many.
ZergSmasher wrote: Can a Fire Raptor be magnetized? If so, that would totally be the way to go since it's an expensive model. I don't use FW models (not from a lack of desire or dislike of FW or anything, but more financial reasons), but if I did I would magnetize them since then I wouldn't have to get as many.
It can but I'm not really someone with the patience for magnetizing my models. :/
Also, I know for a fact that, if I magnitized my models, I would definitely loose ( ) all the gun options.
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
Reposting from the news & rumors thread. A Jump Pack Sorcerer with this and Infernal Gaze is probably a better sniper than any actual snipers other factions get.
Well, if you play a lot of imperial guard, its worth a try. Sorceror must first pass warp test roll, and then after that, must roll higher than toughness on a d6. Even against imperial guard characters, that's only 50%. a double 50% success rate = to just 25% overall for it to suceed. And that's if you are trying to snipe a guard character.
Against most other characters (SM) which are T4 or higher, it will be just one third chance or worse, and combined with having to pass the warp charge roll... I think its not worth it. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BoomWolf wrote: Night lords seems rather good, you just need to make sure you nuke whatever LD character the enemy has running around.
Makes every assault unit a tiny bit more scary, and a grouped assault a hell lot more scary.
After reading how scary they can make a nightlord warlord, I do agree. Night lords seem to be our Chaos answer to snipers. We don't have them, instead, we will send in our Night Lord warlord to smash you in the face. lol The only issue of course is that we are sending in our warlord to perform what is effectively supposed to be an assasin's job. Its effectively giving away slay the warlord to the opponent. I suppose it might be worth it if we can slay opponent's warlord first. But that's a big if. Because if its celestine or Gulliman, bets are off.
Anyway, its less of an issue in a night lords army, because you won't be just sending in one single warlord, you will be sending in most of the army, be it in masses of raptors or a mix of raptors and terminators.
TheNewBlood wrote: Quick question: Which is better, a Soul Grinder or Defiler in a primarily CSM army?
The correct answer is neither, they're both pretty bad models. Though if I had to pick one I'd say the Defiler since only it can benefit from Chaos Lord reroll auras and such.
Rydria wrote: Based on the rumors that renegades can advance and charge, what are peoples opinions on chaos renegade biker armies ?
If I had a biker army I'd rather go for Black Legion or Iron Warriors Tactics, no? If you advance your Bikes you lose 6 shots, or 4 per bike and can only shoot your flamer/melter... Bikes are very good shooting platforms this edition, rather useless in CC though.
I guess you'll get the most out of advance+charge with pure CC units, like Helbrute(scourge/fist+flamer), possessed, spawn, mutilator, warp talons.
TheNewBlood wrote: Quick question: Which is better, a Soul Grinder or Defiler in a primarily CSM army?
The correct answer is neither, they're both pretty bad models. Though if I had to pick one I'd say the Defiler since only it can benefit from Chaos Lord reroll auras and such.
The plague hulk is pretty nice, very survivable due to disgustingly resilient and with its vomit you can do some damage. I had it survive a game vs. Dark Eldar where the rest of my army was slaughtered in 2 turns .
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nope, but with the warlord trait and relic, a jump pack night lord warlord is pretty scary in close combat.
My Night Lords have been such a joy to play. And now this? Oh man oh man oh man oh man...
Quite happy for you actually Jancoran. You've been making the most of them this whole time so it's great to see such a nice treatment for the Nostromans.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nope, but with the warlord trait and relic, a jump pack night lord warlord is pretty scary in close combat.
My Night Lords have been such a joy to play. And now this? Oh man oh man oh man oh man...
Whats a good starting guide for units to use in a Night Lords army?
For fluff purposes? Warp Talons and Raptors all day long, ideally buffed with jump pack lords and sorcerors to give you warptime and re-rolls in close combat.
Generally, Warp Talons are lethal - yesterday they tore apart a dreadnought in close combat. Between the re-roll to wounds and giving them a bonus to hit from prescience, they are incredible - and if you can get them to charge on the same turn they deep strike, all the better, because your opponent can't do owt about it! They get even better in a few weeks when they get that penalty to enemy leadership!
One word of warning though, they are very expensive and I wouldn't rely on them to wreck vehicles too much.
For your regular CSM, I'd suggest lots of Rhinos, because the Havoc Launchers are tremendous and you want to be up in the other person's face as quickly as you can to make the most of the leadership penalty.
Trying to think of fantastic ways to use the 2x EC stratagem.
The best I've come up with is deepstriking 5 termies with Combi plasmas (heavy weapon optional) for a freakish amount of plasma shots.
Daemon prince w prescience, 6 bikers with 2 plasma and Combi?
Havocs don't seem good because if your opponent has first turn they will die.
That's all I've come up with so far. The other problem is trying to fit in enough cp to use it for the first three turns and have enough for a few rerolls...
For Night Lords a Rhino with two squad (2 possessed ? Berzerk ? Characters ?) should be pretty nasty.
And we have let to see those "general" relics, maybe their is one with Ld debuff.
The correct answer is neither, they're both pretty bad models.
Hope they will buff that Defiler.. The none-Infantry/Biker/Hellbrute entry in the codex were pretty meh.. They are going to be worth when Legion rules come out.
Trying to think of fantastic ways to use the 2x EC stratagem.
The best I've come up with is deepstriking 5 termies with Combi plasmas (heavy weapon optional) for a freakish amount of plasma shots.
Daemon prince w prescience, 6 bikers with 2 plasma and Combi?
Havocs don't seem good because if your opponent has first turn they will die.
Depend on how much you want to spend. Beside Havok, Bikers, Noise Marine, Termi & Raptors are our best Infantry/biker source of dakka. So you can be cheap with a 5 man raptor with 3 plasma/melta/flamers + 2 bolt pistol). Or going on a more expansive cheese adding a Prescience sorcerer, or
- 10 man bike squad (3 plasma/melta/flammers + 20 bolters)
- 5 Termi (5 plasma/Melta/flammers)
- 10 NM (8 Sonicblaster wich make 24 "bolter" shot + 2 blastmaster). But they will never come in range at full force.
I'll try first with 5 man Raptoricide full plasma (maybee on supercharge on second shot for the lolz), see what it can do.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nope, but with the warlord trait and relic, a jump pack night lord warlord is pretty scary in close combat.
My Night Lords have been such a joy to play. And now this? Oh man oh man oh man oh man...
Whats a good starting guide for units to use in a Night Lords army?
Well, Raptors are pretty much THE obvious choice to start Night Lords. That would be my take on it. I personally have always had three units of them and would probably say that no less than 2 is a good idea. I have always used larger squads of them, so that's 20 Raptors. There can be some real debate on the Warp Talons. They weren't good on their own and they required a VERY specific "play" in order to use in 7E. I think more people will like them now. So if you were wanting to do it, a unit of them would not be a wasted effort.
I haven't seen all the new rules obviously in the Codex but I have just played them a couple of times and the victories were convincing even without the Codex. I have played them a lot so it may take you a second to learn how best to use stuff at first. Raptors have been maligned for long enough that a lot of people have just never really used them. But to answer your questions: Raptors for sure.
Debilitate wrote: Trying to think of fantastic ways to use the 2x EC stratagem.
The best I've come up with is deepstriking 5 termies with Combi plasmas (heavy weapon optional) for a freakish amount of plasma shots.
Daemon prince w prescience, 6 bikers with 2 plasma and Combi?
Havocs don't seem good because if your opponent has first turn they will die.
That's all I've come up with so far. The other problem is trying to fit in enough cp to use it for the first three turns and have enough for a few rerolls...
Have been thinking about the same. My theoretical EC tactic would be to pack 2x 10 man Noise Marine squads with IoE or IoV in a Kharbdis Assault Claw and land them about 20 inches from a target. The 2x stratagem would work well in this case because they would be immune to any first turn shenanigans and the legion trait would make any subsequent charges easier to deal with.
Trouble with this idea is that's a lot of models in the open once my turn ends. To be effective, they would also need combi-plasma Terminators or Raptors to arrive.
That said, I have not figured out how to maximize command points around an army like this and keep it battle forged. I keep thinking about how to try to fit it into a Brigade detachment but not coming up with a good way to fill out all the slots. I think I would take 3 Rapier batteries for heavy support, but have no clue what to do about fast attack. Spawn would be the obvious choice, for the points, but I really don't like them or bikers in this army. For that matter, elites are expensive, and you have to take 3 - a Terminator squad plus 2 squads of possessed is what I am currently thinking.
Khorne Relic is the Brass Collar of Bhorgaster and their stratagem is Scorn of Sorcery: let's you deny a power. I hope the Brass Collar is an aoe around the wearer and not "this unit cannot be targeted by spells" or something.
I didn't think I'd be this happy about an extra attack but I am. This and the point reduction for power fists will make our other units very strong.
andysonic1 wrote: Khorne Relic is the Brass Collar of Bhorgaster and their stratagem is Scorn of Sorcery: let's you deny a power. I hope the Brass Collar is an aoe around the wearer and not "this unit cannot be targeted by spells" or something.
I didn't think I'd be this happy about an extra attack but I am. This and the point reduction for power fists will make our other units very strong.
Honestly, not really happy about the brass collar: I wanted a god damn Axe! ;_;
The rest of it seems pretty good, even if the strategem is a bit costly at 3CP.
andysonic1 wrote: Khorne Relic is the Brass Collar of Bhorgaster and their stratagem is Scorn of Sorcery: let's you deny a power. I hope the Brass Collar is an aoe around the wearer and not "this unit cannot be targeted by spells" or something.
I didn't think I'd be this happy about an extra attack but I am. This and the point reduction for power fists will make our other units very strong.
Honestly, not really happy about the brass collar: I wanted a god damn Axe! ;_;
The rest of it seems pretty good, even if the strategem is a bit costly at 3CP.
Remember that the stratagem they showed off isn't a World Eaters one, it's a general Chaos one. Ours is 1CP to deny a power. Honestly, we don't need to fight a second or third time, we completely wreck everything we touch the first time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote: Collar allows the bearer to deny like a psyker. If successful causes perils on the caster.
please be right please be right please be right please be right
Is deny the witch innately a bubble around the denying psyker? Because if it's not there's nothing in that artifact write-up that says it requires range, it's table-wide without some kind of built in range for deny the witch. That'd be a bit OP I think, guaranteed perils every turn on one psyker on the table is too strong. I'd like the artifact to be gated by range (not that it'd matter much once you launch your warlord in your enemies face turn 1).
Demantiae wrote: Is deny the witch innately a bubble around the denying psyker? Because if it's not there's nothing in that artifact write-up that says it requires range, it's table-wide without some kind of built in range for deny the witch. That'd be a bit OP I think, guaranteed perils every turn on one psyker on the table is too strong. I'd like the artifact to be gated by range (not that it'd matter much once you launch your warlord in your enemies face turn 1).
FAQ said that all of the DtW non-psyker abilities have a range of 24" unless stated otherwise.
Why do you need a fancy axe?
All you do with an axe is chop people, then it gets dirty and dented, then you need a new axe.
Keeping simple axes lets you rotate through them without spending too much resources, plus you can afford to use them as makeshift projectile weapons should the need arise!
If you want to gather more skulls for the skull throne, you gotta be economical about it.
What is our best anti-horde shooting weapon in our codex (Chaos or Daemon)? With all of the IG style armies on the tables now a days, what is our best unit or units to delete those units.
Boski51 wrote: What is our best anti-horde shooting weapon in our codex (Chaos or Daemon)? With all of the IG style armies on the tables now a days, what is our best unit or units to delete those units.
thanks
A Missile Launcher seems like the least expensive but you can make a strong argument that the Bolters themselves are also pretty valuable in that regard. 25+model to do 6d attacks oooooor... just 2 dudes with bolters. When you really think about it, Bolters might just be it from a cost standpoint honestly.
Flamers of Tzeentch are ridiculously good at it in the Daemon side. Still expensive per model but they bring so damn many.
Boski51 wrote: What is our best anti-horde shooting weapon in our codex (Chaos or Daemon)? With all of the IG style armies on the tables now a days, what is our best unit or units to delete those units.
thanks
Forgeworld do anti-Horde better:
Hellforged Predator with quad heavy flamers ---> 4d6 flames in shooting and another 4d6 flames in overwatch, both autohitting.
Leviathan Dreadnought with double Grav-Flux ---> d3 shots base and another d3 for every 5 models in the unit and double that because you have two guns.
koooaei wrote: Zerkers make every other unit except a rhino redundand. Maybe even a rhino.
A high mobility list will still run circles around Berzerkers. Hell a gunline will still shoot them dead. Their defense hasn't gone up at all, they still require transports of some kind as well as support units. Blood Slaughterers are great fluffy support, but Bikes might also be a good pickup now that, with a chainsword + special weapon + combi-bolter, they are equal parts shooty and choppy. Imagine using triple flamers + combi-bolters followed by 3 attacks each in close combat.
koooaei wrote: Zerkers make every other unit except a rhino redundand. Maybe even a rhino.
You need to block their disembark before you pop the rhino. It takes about 20 models on 25 mm bases with 2-3 inches of surplus charge + a character on a bike. I have never seen footslogging bezerkers in 8th. I can't imagine that they work very well that way, not even against Orks.
koooaei wrote: Zerkers make every other unit except a rhino redundand. Maybe even a rhino.
You need to block their disembark before you pop the rhino. It takes about 20 models on 25 mm bases with 2-3 inches of surplus charge + a character on a bike. I have never seen footslogging bezerkers in 8th. I can't imagine that they work very well that way, not even against Orks.
Nearly every picture of Kharn + Berzerkers has a Land Raider in the background. The days of footslogging World Eaters are over. Long live METAL BAWKSES!
It is finished! Literally took the whole day but my Fire Raptor is finished.
Top tip for Forge World models, let them soak in warm water for a long time: the sides of the fuselage had both bent inwards which prevent me from putting the canopy on top, so I soaked them for a couple of minutes and tride to bend them... I snapped both , whoops! Luckily a lot of glue, some patience and building the canopy first means that the Fire Raptor is in tact. I've ordered some Green Stuff and liquid Green Stuff to clean up the mistakes I've made but it's looking good so far.
Now I'm brainstorming what new stuff I'm going to use on it: give it TZEENTCH and put a 5++ on it, Prescience for BS2+ and hopefully there will be more psychic and strategem shenanigans I can use on it.
Boski51 wrote: What is our best anti-horde shooting weapon in our codex (Chaos or Daemon)? With all of the IG style armies on the tables now a days, what is our best unit or units to delete those units.
thanks
Angry Marine launcher retrofitted to fire Berzerkers directly into close combat? :-p
Not bad. It does make me wonder, however, are there any cheap kits that come with big claws like on the Dreadclaw? You wouldn't even need to flip the Drop pod upside down, just glue a claw on each of the ramps.
If you found some cheap claws you could put one together for under £30, bit more than the simpler conversion but perhaps a bit closer to the Dreadclaw model.
Boski51 wrote: What is our best anti-horde shooting weapon in our codex (Chaos or Daemon)? With all of the IG style armies on the tables now a days, what is our best unit or units to delete those units.
thanks
I'm playing just from the index, so no FW.
Bikes might be. In the SM Codex they got a 6 point discount, so 3 bikes with 2 Flamers, 1 combi flamer and 3 combi bolters are 110 points, if CSM get that discount as well.
3 of these guys deal 10.5 flamer hits on average + 1 bolter hit from the combibolter (hits on 4+) + 8 hits for the other bikes' combi bolters on average in rapid fire range.
You still need 6 of these units to erase 50 conscripts, but i guess the problem is that only conscripts might be able to kill conscripts efficiently.
Not bad. It does make me wonder, however, are there any cheap kits that come with big claws like on the Dreadclaw? You wouldn't even need to flip the Drop pod upside down, just glue a claw on each of the ramps.
If you found some cheap claws you could put one together for under £30, bit more than the simpler conversion but perhaps a bit closer to the Dreadclaw model.
I had thought of using big scything Talons from some tyranid monster before deciding to just buy one. It would have been a pretty simple conversion. I might do that to make a second, more Warp tainted one.
mrhappyface wrote: It is finished! Literally took the whole day but my Fire Raptor is finished.
Top tip for Forge World models, let them soak in warm water for a long time: the sides of the fuselage had both bent inwards which prevent me from putting the canopy on top, so I soaked them for a couple of minutes and tride to bend them... I snapped both , whoops! Luckily a lot of glue, some patience and building the canopy first means that the Fire Raptor is in tact. I've ordered some Green Stuff and liquid Green Stuff to clean up the mistakes I've made but it's looking good so far.
Now I'm brainstorming what new stuff I'm going to use on it: give it TZEENTCH and put a 5++ on it, Prescience for BS2+ and hopefully there will be more psychic and strategem shenanigans I can use on it.
That was......By Design..... I'm thinking GW will add 3 new cult specific psychic powers to and merge them with the Daemon cult psychic tables. So may as think about what can do with them whilst you're at it (though I don't think an y of them are useful for a vehicle though).
I like how inverting the struts instantly makes it look more evil and chaosy. It's like inverting righteous icons somehow makes things seem evil.... :-D
Rubrics are really good anti-horde IMO, especially with the warpflamers. Not super efficient against conscripts but nothing is efficient against conscripts, and the Rubrics will almost certainly survive the return fire.
Demantiae wrote: That was......By Design..... I'm thinking GW will add 3 new cult specific psychic powers to and merge them with the Daemon cult psychic tables. So may as think about what can do with them whilst you're at it (though I don't think an y of them are useful for a vehicle though).
I don't think they're merging the Daemon and CSM powers because the Daemons will probably be getting their own codex.
Boski51 wrote: What is our best anti-horde shooting weapon in our codex (Chaos or Daemon)? With all of the IG style armies on the tables now a days, what is our best unit or units to delete those units.
thanks
Our best anti horde are from FW. Both the quad bolter rapiers and malcador Vulcan can put out massive lead.
My Night Lords have me amped right now. My Contemptor dreadnought just got good against hordes too, all I have to do is back him up with a squad of raptors and turn loose! Some armies this isn't gonna work on, but I'm confident in my ability to nuke commissars with Infernal gaze. I don't like how much sorcery I have to run at the moment, but all three powers are too good not to take advantage of.
I've just purchased a Kharybdis, and cannot wait to dump a bunch of bezerkers lose on the enemy, multi charge just do wounds to everyone, and back them up with some raptors just to ensure mass leadership failure.
I feel like it will take some time to learn my army, but Night Lords might actually have a chance at being top tier Chaos this edition.
My need to use Mark of Nurgle just to throw down Icons of Despair is a little weird... lol.
I think our best anti horde is actually berzerkers. lol I imagine just one unit of Zerkers would love to smash into a horde of conscripts. All those many attacks won't be wasted, and those chain axes will be wounding on 2s. lol
It doesn't even need to be a big 20 man unit zerker. I think with the new butcher nails world eaters trait, even a unit of 8 zerkers will be doing tons of damage to a conscript blob. Likely enough to erase it in one single turn of attack.
I mean, now the basic zerker hits 4 times on the charge, and they get to attack twice? lol Have your Rhino charge in to absorb overwatch, Then have the zerker squad charge in after that.
BTW, can I check something here? Is it an issue if I want to equip a champion with powerfist and combi melta? But last time battle scribe seemed to treat it as not allowable. So, I am not sure.
Just noticed the Red Butchers on FW....they look awesome! Is there anyway to equip terminators in 40k that would allow them on the table with two combat weapons?
. I used Chosen, Raptors, Rapiers, 3 Helbrutes, Bikes, sorcerer next to 3 min units of 
, whoops! Luckily a lot of glue, some patience and building the canopy first means that the Fire Raptor is in tact. I've ordered some Green Stuff and liquid Green Stuff to clean up the mistakes I've made but it's looking good so far.
