Gordon Shumway wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

Demantiae wrote:
How do troops disembark from flyers now? there's nothing in the hover rule to state that flyers have to go into hover first before unloading troops. Do they just parachute out before the flyer zooms off?

You disembark at the start of your turn, this is impossible with the Min move distance while zooming. You must go into hover and then disembark.

Where is the rule that a flyer needs to be in hover to allow its passengers to disembark? I had assumed it to be the case, but I can't find the rule. Maybe I'm just not following why this is impossible with the min distance move as you say.

This rule doesn't exist, they are free to disembark and then the flyer can move.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I'm annoyed with a couple things in the forgeworld book. They lost some units like the deimos vindicator with laser destroyer and other units lost options/weapons.

To the earlier discussion of genestealers, I just faced a good number of them. I interrupted their attacks whenever I could, shot them with lots of middling guns to get them below 10 to reduce their number of attacks quickly, and kept counter charge units like khorne berserkers or bloodletters near my lines. Was able to wipe them out with them only doing a couple wounds of damage to me.

Yea, looks like my rapiers are going to have very odd looking heavy bolters. I also almost got a vindicator, lucky I didn't.
On the plus side, I can finally get me that kharydbis lol. The anvillus on the other hand seems less useful now unless you can't afford a kharybdis. Having ObSec was kind of a big deal.

Had huge success with this list recently, going to try Nurgle variation next week and post some thoughts.



Just calculate the threat range and the average ammount of mortal wounds.

Inspired by Clan Scryre battalion from AoS.

Are the new death guard units from the DI box are usable by other legions? Could I field them as <black legion> or would I have to field them under a <chaos> detachment to use them, thereby missing out on the bonuses from my BL characters?

 luke1705 wrote:

Kuklops wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:


Having played more than a few games with maxed out turn 1 assault Nids (who do this a lot better than CSM, I promise) be careful with putting all your eggs in that basket. A good army will have a screening unit or two to prevent you from getting to the good stuff, thus forcing you to weather a turn or two of shooting no matter when you first hit their lines

How do you find trying to screen you units against Trygon deep striking then gaunts through the tunnel? I'm finding a good Nids list can put you under pressure from across the board and hit your flank/rear in the first few turns. Nids make us being 'okay/good' at melee totally defunct... Genestealers totally wreck face. I've had to redesign all my lists to make them way more shooty.

You definitely have to be able to do two things in 8th:

1) Counter a turn 1 assault
2) kill hordes that have access to an invuln/FNP

Genestealers are especially rough because they are some of the most points-efficient versions of both of those things. That's usually what I bring through the tunnel as a Nids player.

For CSM, I like using the poxwalkers as a screen. Blue horrors are also insanely points-efficient, but you'll likely have to spend some CP saving them from morale doom. The real question (imo) is where CSM's offense comes from. I'm thinking a combination of quad heavy bolters and Leviathan Dreads with Butcher Cannons. So much dakka, and a nearby lord lets all of them re-roll 1's to hit

My counter assault is probably going to have to be An'ggrath because
1) I am building my whole list around him
2) The leviathans have some really enticing melee options but their guns are just so much better

The Leviathan is a beast. I'm running mine with siegeclaw, hellflamer & butcher cannon too, comes in at 327 points but with 14 wounds and Machina Malifica (1/3 chance of recovering wounds) as well as a 5++ it's going to take some damage... Shame it can't take 2 butcher cannons! I plan to run one up the centre of my army, shielding it wtih cultists. I can't get behind £35 for 1 FW rapier so I'm running 2 squads of Havocs with HBs instead, more expensive in points but I have the models & I think they're cooler IMO & with splitfire should I need it. Doesn't leave many points in the list, a Lord for the reroll 1s on the Leviathan & HB havocs and 2 Heldrakes and a Predator is 1500 points all done. I really hope it does better against hordes while still being able to deal with other lists - probably not.

 hippyjr wrote:
Are the new death guard units from the DI box are usable by other legions? Could I field them as <black legion> or would I have to field them under a <chaos> detachment to use them, thereby missing out on the bonuses from my BL characters?

All the death guard units, have the death guard legion
So you can take them in any chaos army, but you won't get to share auras with black legion no.

30k Iron warrior player here. Does a battalion with plasspam CSM/chosen/havocs, a DP, a couple fist/chainfist/soulburner contemptors, maybe a cc Leviathan seem viable?

I've got a spartan, some predators, a Falchion, and a couple knights I could throw into the mix also. Siege tyrants as counts as obliterators, but sounds like they suck now.

Seems like I might be weak against dudespam lists?

Is the Kytan any good? Don't have the book yet.. :(

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Is the Kytan any good? Don't have the book yet.. :(

It's pretty nasty!

514 points with its gun. Quite a bit cheaper without (like nearly 37 old meltabombs cheaper).

With full 11-22 wounds its M12" S10 A5

WS3+ BS3+ T8 Ld9 Sv3+

Gatling cannon is 48" Heavy 8 S8 AP2 D3 can shoot models within 1"

Cleaver of Khorne is smash = Sx2 AP4 D6 or slash = S-user Ap2 Dd3 3 hit rolls per attack instead of 1

5++
Heals a wound
Advance rolls use 2d6 to determine max move
Explodes

I will be starting off my 8th Ed adventure with Chaos! Now what type of Chaos, I don't quite know yet.....

Kuklops wrote:



The Leviathan is a beast. I'm running mine with siegeclaw, hellflamer & butcher cannon too, comes in at 327 points but with 14 wounds and Machina Malifica (1/3 chance of recovering wounds) as well as a 5++ it's going to take some damage... Shame it can't take 2 butcher cannons! I plan to run one up the centre of my army, shielding it wtih cultists. I can't get behind £35 for 1 FW rapier so I'm running 2 squads of Havocs with HBs instead, more expensive in points but I have the models & I think they're cooler IMO & with splitfire should I need it. Doesn't leave many points in the list, a Lord for the reroll 1s on the Leviathan & HB havocs and 2 Heldrakes and a Predator is 1500 points all done. I really hope it does better against hordes while still being able to deal with other lists - probably not.

Ah crap! I misread that and thought I could take 2 butcher cannons as long as they gave up both claws and melta guns

Fan67 wrote:
Had huge success with this list recently, going to try Nurgle variation next week and post some thoughts.

Spoiler:

Just calculate the threat range and the average ammount of mortal wounds.

Inspired by Clan Scryre battalion from AoS.

wow just wow, read decimation rules... you bad bad man

Oh also the Leviathan has to take 2 hellflamers.....rip hordes lmao


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Man classic example of Chaos forgetting how to do things as well as the imperium....their relic leviathan can have double cannons...and it's 4++ works all the time :(

Putting double ranged weapons on Leviathans always seems like a massive waste to me anyway. If you're paying for a S8, T8 14W close combat monster why have it sit back and take potshots all game?

Looking through the FW Index I am really liking the Hellforged Predators. Plasma destroyer + lascannon sponsons for long ranged shooting and the melta or flame cannon with heavy flamer sponsons for supporting close combat units. The fact it takes an elite slot is ever better.

I don't feel like 4 attacks is really a "cc monster", even if he is hitting and wounding on 2's.

The butcher cannon is just such a great weapon. Having it on a durable platform and never missing with a lord nearby to help it re-roll ones is pretty solid, but you're right that it's a pretty good assault platform. Kind of like a mini knight

 luke1705 wrote:

Kuklops wrote:



The Leviathan is a beast. I'm running mine with siegeclaw, hellflamer & butcher cannon too, comes in at 327 points but with 14 wounds and Machina Malifica (1/3 chance of recovering wounds) as well as a 5++ it's going to take some damage... Shame it can't take 2 butcher cannons! I plan to run one up the centre of my army, shielding it wtih cultists. I can't get behind £35 for 1 FW rapier so I'm running 2 squads of Havocs with HBs instead, more expensive in points but I have the models & I think they're cooler IMO & with splitfire should I need it. Doesn't leave many points in the list, a Lord for the reroll 1s on the Leviathan & HB havocs and 2 Heldrakes and a Predator is 1500 points all done. I really hope it does better against hordes while still being able to deal with other lists - probably not.

Ah crap! I misread that and thought I could take 2 butcher cannons as long as they gave up both claws and melta guns

Nah, I had half expected the Leviathan Dread for Chaos wouldn't be allowed to give up BOTH melee weapons anyway. Plus why would ever want to waste those sexy melee stats?

I see hordes being more an issue, so I'm leaning towards the Grav weapon for one arm and the Drill on the other.

Not to be rude, but which of those weapons do you think are geared to succeed against hordes? An extra d3 shots is nice but I don't often want lascannons that do extra damage against vehicles/monsters/titans fired against mass infantry. Would rather have the butcher cannon for that, or quad heavy bolsters. Or both

It goes to 5 attacks with double drills or claws, which means with double drills you're doing 11 wounds to a Land Raider. It's hard to be good at anti-horde and anti-vehicle/monster in close combat, and the CC Leviathan should probably be going after the heavier targets.

For anti-horde/all rounder I think butcher cannon + claw will be the way to go. The butcher cannon will be pretty sweet against hordes that don't have morale immunity.

Why not the grav gun for hordes?

Daemonettes are no longer available on the games workshop webstore, and not talking temporally out of stock. (United Kingdom)

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Daemons-Daemonettes-of-Slaanesh

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Why not the grav gun for hordes?

Because even for a 20 man squad, it averages 8 shots. The butcher cannon ALWAYS gets 8 shots, even against 5 man squads, 10 man squads or even a single model. The grav gun has a higher damage characteristic vs tanks and such, but the butcher cannon is pretty good against everything. More consistent damage output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:
Daemonettes are no longer available on the games workshop webstore, and not talking temporally out of stock. (United Kingdom)

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Daemons-Daemonettes-of-Slaanesh

USA store too

 luke1705 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rydria wrote:
Daemonettes are no longer available on the games workshop webstore, and not talking temporally out of stock. (United Kingdom)

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Chaos-Daemons-Daemonettes-of-Slaanesh

USA store too

I hope it is just a repackage for AOS/40k as a slaanesh main in both systems i'd be a bit upset to see my god squatted when Nurgle, tzeentch and Khorne have wonderful new things. Being optimistic is probbly is just a repackage since Slaanesh is the only one who hasn't got a battle force yet and he has been waiting for a relevant plot line to receive one.

Why hope for a repack and not for a whole new model?

If you are being optimistic, might as well go all the way.

I cannot remember the last time Slaanesh got a new unit like Plague Drones, Blood Slaughterers, Kytan, Primach etc.

Cautiously optimistic this means there will be a new (release for Slaanesh collectors for both systems with new units and models, though I see nothing wrong with the current plastic demonettes.

BoomWolf wrote:Why hope for a repack and not for a whole new model?

If you are being optimistic, might as well go all the way.

Well if you want optimistic i'd like them to re release the juan diaz Daemonettes again, I only managed to get 60 of them when they where released for that 1 week, and would love to have more.

3rdlegion wrote:I cannot remember the last time Slaanesh got a new unit like Plague Drones, Blood Slaughterers, Kytan, Primach etc.

Cautiously optimistic this means there will be a new (release for Slaanesh collectors for both systems with new units and models, though I see nothing wrong with the current plastic demonettes.

Last time slaanesh got models was in 2012 at the very end of 5th edition, when it got the seeker chariot, and the finecast herald of slaanesh.

So how do we get Zerkers into combat effectively? I'll likely do a Kharybdis in time, and perhaps one of the land raider variants that can carry 20 from FW. But I don't like the whole disembark before movement for regular tanks because your opponent can pretty effectively outmaneuver you during their movement phase, although the re-roll charges helps.

3rdlegion wrote:
I cannot remember the last time Slaanesh got a new unit like Plague Drones, Blood Slaughterers, Kytan, Primach etc..

Seeker chariots, released at the same time as plague drones.

And just for the record, seeker chariots are awesome. Slaanesh chariot heralds are amazing ... characters with a hell of an impact.

 Rydria wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:Why hope for a repack and not for a whole new model?

If you are being optimistic, might as well go all the way.

Well if you want optimistic i'd like them to re release the juan diaz Daemonettes again, I only managed to get 60 of them when they where released for that 1 week, and would love to have more.

... I thought I had a problem with collecting demonettes. I collected 60 myself but that was before the re release, through ebay and second hand trades.

I wish Slaanesh would get some knight or walker thing to balance things out seeing as the other gods have unique engines.

What kind of daemon engine would it be? A giant evil massage table!

A massive fat deamon on tracks like the lord of skulls but covered in writhing naked slaves and huge kfc buckets of food with used syringes littering the ground

Weird rules question: the Kharybdis Assault Claw has the Drop Pod Assault rule, meaning when it drops in all models embarked inside must immediately disembark within 3 inches. Now, the Embark rules on page 183 of the rulebook state that if all models in a unit end their move within 3 inches of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. The models that just disembarked the drop pod have ended their move.

So, does this mean I can just leave them in and let my opponent know they exited then reentered the pod? It is technically during the "end of the movement phase", and the unit "ended their move within 3 inches". If this works this makes the Kharybdis even more powerful because you can drop it, charge it, then drop your bois out next turn for a far closer and more reliable charge.

Page 183 in the rulebook: "a unit cannot both embark and disembark in the same turn"

if you wanna avoid having to get out remember it has a decent move of 15". You do not 'have' to deploy it from reserve you could just set it up on the table then bomb it 15"+d6 the first turn.

If you setup first, get a decent deployment type and advance move you'll probably be able to get it where you would of done on the deep strike, troops tucked up inside.

So the Malefic Talon prince, how does CC work with him?
Talons give 3 extra attacks when you fight, and have a nice profile, what do you do about your remaining 4 attacks that the model has base? Are they just S7 ap- dmg1?

What makes it so much better than a sword and talons? Point cost?

nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

 Latro_ wrote:
nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

I had taken the extra clawed arms, Torso, and dorsal fins from the Daemon Prince kit and attached it to a serpentine body to built a second one for any Dark Apotheosis results and it turns out the back up prince build is much better than the full kit one now!

Sword and wings guy is a much better Counts as Belakor anyway.

This just in: Fire Raptors are terrifying and put out a crapload of shots the turn they come out. 16w is also rough to 1 round at -1 to hit.

I used the heavy bolter/hellfire variety at 362 pts

 Latro_ wrote:
nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

Oh... Ooooh. Ok, so it's like a chainsword, not a mount attack. The wording on the power scourge threw me off because it is a little similar to mount attacks.I figured it only got 3 swings with the scourge.


Different topic, I ran 3 giant chaos spawn at 1000pt. They are amazing distractions and if they are not dealt with quickly they get out of control. Also they go berserk at 1-4 wounds, getting 2D6 S and 2D6 attacks. They are hilariously cheap, honestly I think they are cheaper than they were in 7th edition, and much better.

Played two games with An'ggrath today. Posting it here because although I had 2 units of brimstone horrors (khorne forgive me) the rest of the army was CSM. Took 5 quad heavy bolter batteries and 2 leviathan dreads with butcher cannons and the siege claw....still sad that I can't swap the second siege claw out for another butcher cannon, but them's the breaks. Oh also had a CSM lord to allow the gun base to re-roll 1's.

Things I learned over two games:

1) I roll a lot of 2's
2) An'ggrath is apparently not allowed to live past turn 2.
3) An'ggrath is a beast even when I fail 5/5 4++ saves, which apparently is every game at least once
4) 10/10 would take An'ggrath again
5) I need more Leviathans. They're like discount knights and just really good. Like 2 is plenty but I borrowed my friend's and I need my own
6) Quad Heavy bolters are great....unless there's so much terrain on the board that you can't see your hand in front of your face.
7) Still, heavy bolters are necessary. Or at least some sort of anti horde.
8) I need to remember that the Leviathan has a meltagun

Different topic, I ran 3 giant chaos spawn at 1000pt. They are amazing distractions and if they are not dealt with quickly they get out of control. Also they go berserk at 1-4 wounds, getting 2D6 S and 2D6 attacks. They are hilariously cheap, honestly I think they are cheaper than they were in 7th edition, and much better.

In my 3rd game i pulled out some normal chaos spawn, and boy were they fun. D6 attacks with -2 save, doing 2 damage a hit, they seemed pretty nasty. A damaged squad of 2 managed to assault Azrael and nearly killed him outright.

Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

 luke1705 wrote:
Played two games with An'ggrath today. Posting it here because although I had 2 units of brimstone horrors (khorne forgive me) the rest of the army was CSM. Took 5 quad heavy bolter batteries and 2 leviathan dreads with butcher cannons and the siege claw....still sad that I can't swap the second siege claw out for another butcher cannon, but them's the breaks. Oh also had a CSM lord to allow the gun base to re-roll 1's.

Things I learned over two games:

1) I roll a lot of 2's
2) An'ggrath is apparently not allowed to live past turn 2.
3) An'ggrath is a beast even when I fail 5/5 4++ saves, which apparently is every game at least once
4) 10/10 would take An'ggrath again
5) I need more Leviathans. They're like discount knights and just really good. Like 2 is plenty but I borrowed my friend's and I need my own
6) Quad Heavy bolters are great....unless there's so much terrain on the board that you can't see your hand in front of your face.
7) Still, heavy bolters are necessary. Or at least some sort of anti horde.
8) I need to remember that the Leviathan has a meltagun

Any more data on the Leviathans? How did the butcher cannons perform. What did you choose butcher over other options. How tanky or shooty did they feel. Did they perform well in CC?

Thx,

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

My opinion on these models in general, is that you are wasteful if you don't take both.

A weapon, and a gun. the difference btween one melee wepaon to two is merely 1 attack, so a weapon/gun setup is almost as good at CC, while still helping at shooting (until he reaches CC for example)

 BoomWolf wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

My opinion on these models in general, is that you are wasteful if you don't take both.

A weapon, and a gun. the difference btween one melee wepaon to two is merely 1 attack, so a weapon/gun setup is almost as good at CC, while still helping at shooting (until he reaches CC for example)

I believe you also lose the built in hellflamer which can be useful.

It's amazing that the dual-petard Decimator is only 150 points. Slap a cheap Chaos Lord on the table to escort it and the damn thing is averaging 6 mortal wounds a turn. Two can one-shot a Russ or chunk a horde unit every turn.

I want to take two and a blood slaughterer and run them up the board fething gak up. It's only 650 points for a Jump-Lord, warpsmith, two dakka-decimators and a Blood Slaughterer.

Currently converting my Khorne Berserkers for this edition. Thinking of running 20 in Rhinos. Should they be 2 squads of 10 or 4 of 5. Smaller squads means more power fists, but how valuable do people feel power fists actually are? Worth the points ? Just stick to 2? Don't take any?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so how about Decimator daemon engine VS Hellbrute?

The decimator seems like it will be cheaper for both shooting, or melee, as well as more durable and faster. A scourge brute will have more attacks, but only S8, where the decimator is S9. Sure, the fist will be stronger though. The melee decimator also has 2 hellflamers, which are heavy flamers that deal 2 dmg.

The shooty decimator can have 8 butcher cannon shots (S8 assault cannon) OR what I think will become the favorite, 2 soulburner petards. Which will be 4D3 shots dealing mortal wounds. The point cost for this is the mid 100s. They are assault weapons, and with a 10" move, you will be able to avoid CC while pumping out 4D3 mortal wounds each turn.

Downside, only 24" on the soulburner.

The Decimator with melee weapons is more expensive (EDIT2: the decimator with claws + hellflamers is 184, you're better off with a Blood Slaughterer at 180 points) than the Helbrute with Fist/Scourge, and yeah the power fist hitting on 3's with the brute is brutal. The Decimator's flamers are better for hordes while the brute's cheapness and fistyness is better for "elites". Melee Helbrutes are often ignored because "oh that can't really hurt me till it gets here", and then it gets there and deals so much damage your opponent MUST deal with it.

My opinion on these models in general, is that you are wasteful if you don't take both.

A weapon, and a gun. the difference btween one melee wepaon to two is merely 1 attack, so a weapon/gun setup is almost as good at CC, while still helping at shooting (until he reaches CC for example)

It's wasteful on the Decimator, sure, but on the Helbrute it isn't just +1 attack, it's +1 PLUS the power scourge's +3, for a total of 8 attacks in close combat. For a single unit at 155 points to dish out that many attacks is nuts. I have flipped tanks, punched out Bullgryns, and whipped dreadnaughts in the face with my Helbrute. The thing is just a monster in combat with so many high strength high damage attacks hitting on 3s.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Currently converting my Khorne Berserkers for this edition. Thinking of running 20 in Rhinos. Should they be 2 squads of 10 or 4 of 5. Smaller squads means more power fists, but how valuable do people feel power fists actually are? Worth the points ? Just stick to 2? Don't take any?

Benefits of smaller squads.
More plasma pistols if you want
More power fists if you want
Squads can go after separate things
Opponent has to consider how to split their shooting.
Less morale concern.

Cons:
Harder to give buffs to your units via Prince or Lord.
More chances to be overwatched.
Losses hurt the smaller units a lot more than the larger ones.


Power Fists I don't really know, I haven't seen anyone do the math for them yet... Strength 10 power fist does seem pretty good, being fairly threatening to everything but it's quite expensive still.

2 soulburners is definitely an interesting proposition, range is a bit of an issue but with a 5+ Invulnerable and regeneration surviving isn't going to be tough

If you want to dish out mortal wounds, Hellforged Contemptors can have soulburners integrated into their CCWs. I'm vaguely considering two with Chainclaws and Soulburners accompanied by a Hellwright on abeyant - she can buff them and, being a character with 8 wounds, they'll usually be targeted first (with 5+ invulns and her healing them).

It's an expensive combo (the contemptors together are around the cost of a Knight) but that's a lot of Mortal Wounds being dished out

Charax wrote:
2 soulburners is definitely an interesting proposition, range is a bit of an issue but with a 5+ Invulnerable and regeneration surviving isn't going to be tough

If you want to dish out mortal wounds, Hellforged Contemptors can have soulburners integrated into their CCWs. I'm vaguely considering two with Chainclaws and Soulburners accompanied by a Hellwright on abeyant - she can buff them and, being a character with 8 wounds, they'll usually be targeted first (with 5+ invulns and her healing them).

It's an expensive combo (the contemptors together are around the cost of a Knight) but that's a lot of Mortal Wounds being dished out

Hi, the main upside of Decimators over Contemptors is that it is god damn DAEMON, thus receiving HUGE buff from hanging around Changeling (very dirty combo, don't try with friends).

Unfortunately it won't get +1 to the unvulnerable save like other tzeentch daemons and most tzeentchian vehicles, but on the other hand it still benefits from CSM keywords (rerolls around both magnus and belakor mainly, cause speed boost will likely be monopolized by Magnus, although I have doubts about his survivability).

Hellwright bonuses are minor to the shooting decimators list I think, but for Contemptors it is must have indeed!
But Conteptor with two deathclaws and two soulburners costs over9000 (almost 250pts). Per point Decimators spit much more mortal wounds, and behind the screen of brimstones they are unlikely to be tied in close combat.


Guys anyone sees through the insanity of chaos titans price tags?
1500 for Warhound is crazy!!! Three crusader knights cost less, but having double wound counts and almost triple damage output.
What's wrong with Forgeworld?

Yeah but as you kill them, they get weaker a lot faster. They don't have a 4++ in CC and against shooting, and you should really check out how macro weapons work (hint: if 3 knights go up against a warhound, I know who I've got my money on).

That 24" move means you LITERALLY ALWAYS GET THE CHARGE, which is a big deal too. Not saying it's a practical thing in a 2k game, but the point is that Forge World is actually sort of balancing their models for the points. I think any of the ones that I've seen so far are fair values for their points (and actually maybe a little bit better than index counterparts)

 luke1705 wrote:
Yeah but as you kill them, they get weaker a lot faster. They don't have a 4++ in CC and against shooting, and you should really check out how macro weapons work (hint: if 3 knights go up against a warhound, I know who I've got my money on).

That 24" move means you LITERALLY ALWAYS GET THE CHARGE, which is a big deal too. Not saying it's a practical thing in a 2k game, but the point is that Forge World is actually sort of balancing their models for the points. I think any of the ones that I've seen so far are fair values for their points (and actually maybe a little bit better than index counterparts)

I agree that FW stuff must be slightly overpriced.
But 1500 is almost double times above sanity level.

Could you elaborate about macro weapons a little bit? I have standart chaos warhound with plasma and bolter, for example as sold by FW.
Average shots from plasma are 7, which averages in 16 damage on TITANIC model if Knight fails all his invulnerable saves.
Average damage from bolter is 5-6 before saves.

It will take at least two turn to finish one knight in my set up, which brings another question, why all the weapons cost the same (0) despite obvious disparity.

Fan67 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Yeah but as you kill them, they get weaker a lot faster. They don't have a 4++ in CC and against shooting, and you should really check out how macro weapons work (hint: if 3 knights go up against a warhound, I know who I've got my money on).

That 24" move means you LITERALLY ALWAYS GET THE CHARGE, which is a big deal too. Not saying it's a practical thing in a 2k game, but the point is that Forge World is actually sort of balancing their models for the points. I think any of the ones that I've seen so far are fair values for their points (and actually maybe a little bit better than index counterparts)

I agree that FW stuff must be slightly overpriced.
But 1500 is almost double times above sanity level.

Could you elaborate about macro weapons a little bit? I have standart chaos warhound with plasma and bolter, for example as sold by FW.
Average shots from plasma are 7, which averages in 16 damage on TITANIC model if Knight fails all his invulnerable saves.
Average damage from bolter is 5-6 before saves.

It will take at least two turn to finish one knight in my set up, which brings another question, why all the weapons cost the same (0) despite obvious disparity.

The single plasma gun alone will do 21.5 wounds on average, even if the knight passes his 5++ save at an average rate. You're probably reading the rules incorrectly for how macro weapons work. It's on the first few pages of the entire book.

The bolter obviously is a little meh because it's not going to do well vs tanks and other titans, but it'll still kill a 10 man strong squad of primaris marines on average. Not too terrible.

I think the idea is that they will only be used at apocalypse level points values, so whether you're paying 50 or 150 points for a weapon, it's kind of all the same in the scope of like a 10,000 point battle. Double plasma is nasty though.

oh lawd just reading the new renegades bit of the latest FW index

Malefic lord - hq 30pts

can cast powers, Renegades has smite like power (pick a unit 18" d3 ME's or d if a vehicle on a 7) that and obv normal smite

30pts each thou, T4 4w and a 4+ inv but mainly 30pts!

5 of them jumping out of a chimera 150pts smite smite smite!

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

Oh... Ooooh. Ok, so it's like a chainsword, not a mount attack. The wording on the power scourge threw me off because it is a little similar to mount attacks.I figured it only got 3 swings with the scourge.


Different topic, I ran 3 giant chaos spawn at 1000pt. They are amazing distractions and if they are not dealt with quickly they get out of control. Also they go berserk at 1-4 wounds, getting 2D6 S and 2D6 attacks. They are hilariously cheap, honestly I think they are cheaper than they were in 7th edition, and much better.

How did the rest of your list look? Btw which basesize has the giant Chaosspawn?

Question about dreadclaws and assault claws. Once they drop in the unit must disembark (I. E. Within 3" of the transport) but can't be set up within 9" of the enemy. Can the Disembarked unit then move their normal move distance to get closer to the enemy as per the disembarking procedure rules? Or am I missing something?

no they can't , it specifically says the unit can disembark but must also be more than 9" away

 Latro_ wrote:
no they can't , it specifically says the unit can disembark but must also be more than 9" away

Yes, they would be after disembarking. But then is there anything stopping them making their normal move as Disembarked units usually can?

The dreadclaw deploys at the end of the movement phase, so no moves after disembarking the first time.

Loopstah wrote:
The dreadclaw deploys at the end of the movement phase, so no moves after disembarking the first time.

It's worth noting that if you deep strike the claw then you MUST disembark the unit immediately, but you aren't required to deep strike it. If you think the transported unit or units would benefit from hiding in the claw for a turn then you can set it up normally instead, and treat it as a sort of very expensive but very fast rhino.

Either way, you're probably paying too many points, but.... *shrug*


Also, it seems the FW land raiders not having machine spirit was a deliberate design choice to trade it for 'machina malifica', and not just a matter of FW designers accidentally missing that Chaos land raiders actually keep their machine spirit now. Which is unfortunate, because the FW land raider variants lean very heavily on their machine spirit rule to function, while the machina malifica rules seems mostly cosmetic and not at all an acceptable substitute. Maybe it would be an ok trade on a raider variant that traded expensive heavy weaponry for lower cost and higher capacity, like a hypothetical chaos crusader or something, but whatever they are, the proteus, achilles, and spartan are not that.

What do we make of the Renegades List?
Wyvern and other arty in the heavy slot looks tempting.
Some cheap units to get some extra CP and bodies on the table?

I was looking at it for the cheap artillery but the big thing last edition was that all of the blasts auto hit (or didn't lol). Now with BS 4+, I'm less enticed. They've got some good stuff; don't get me wrong. But I think the CSM gun batteries (and leviathans) will keep me situated for the time being. Their HQ psykers are really amazing though. That alone might be worth a 150 point supreme command detachment. SMITESMITESMITE

 Darksider wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
nope, you jsut attack with the male talons they are a weapon afterall

basically you get 7 malefic talon attacks (8 if ye khorne)

they are comparable to the axe and sword because of the extra attacks... the no brainer is in the fact they are drastically less pts

Oh... Ooooh. Ok, so it's like a chainsword, not a mount attack. The wording on the power scourge threw me off because it is a little similar to mount attacks.I figured it only got 3 swings with the scourge.


Different topic, I ran 3 giant chaos spawn at 1000pt. They are amazing distractions and if they are not dealt with quickly they get out of control. Also they go berserk at 1-4 wounds, getting 2D6 S and 2D6 attacks. They are hilariously cheap, honestly I think they are cheaper than they were in 7th edition, and much better.

How did the rest of your list look? Btw which basesize has the giant Chaosspawn?

I ran 3 giant spawn, a unit of 6 pox riders, Corbax utterblight, herald of nurgle and 3 plague drones.
From FW-
"The Chaos Spawn is a complete resin kit. Please note that the base shown in some images is not included. This product includes one citadel 100mm round base."

I use maggoth lords for mine, I put the big armor plate from maulerfiends over the holes where the riders sit.


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As for renegades....
Our commanders and enforcers are not characters.
Buuuut...
Chaos spawn are infantry. So 12 chaos spawn in a chimera is currently legal, as chimera doesn't state they take up 2 places. Renegade spawn can also climb ruins!

Quad mortars are 4D6 like wyverns.
Earthshakers can be taken with, or without crew, which is kinda strange, but the cheaper the better!
Psyker Coven could cast the crazy buff pretty easily. If you have 40 mutants or whatever with pistol/chainsword, then cast Unnatural Vigor (Re-roll failed charge, hits and wounds in fight phase, then suffer D3 mortal wounds in moral) Sure its 10 to cast, but you can do it on 3D6 and get some serious punch out of your blobs! I would put the coven in a chimera.

Salamander command vehicle looks nice, unsure if they meant for us to have it or not, but it's the only salamander in the book. +1 to hit rolls for any renegade vehicle within 6"? I'm sure we will find a nice use for that with the baneblade or something. Perhaps the Malcador defender with its SEVEN heavy bolters (lol) Or just a humble wyvern or artillery piece (artillery is a vehicle now lol).


Please correct me if I am wrong, but a single heavy weapons team with a mortar is only 8pt? Why in the hell would you take a wyvern when you could have 10D6 shots for the same price? Who needs to re-roll wounds when you can fire over twice as many shots?!

Well 12 chaos spawn or in fact whatever renegade you take isn't technically legally allow to ride in a chimera, they dont have the 'Astra Milatium' keyword. XD what a complete blunder

Ogryns look good too. Actually benefit from the combat covenants.
Charging out of a valkyrie viable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or indeed spawn.
NO SILLY


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A mortar team is a lot more than 8 pts. 3 guys plus mortar, minimum of 3 teams per unit

Captyn_Bob wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A mortar team is a lot more than 8 pts. 3 guys plus mortar, minimum of 3 teams per unit

I am asking about a weapons team, not squad. Squad is the whole unit, made up of teams. Or you are thinking of heavy mortar, I mean a regular mortar, the kind heavy weapons teams take.

 gwarsh41 wrote:


Please correct me if I am wrong, but a single heavy weapons team with a mortar is only 8pt? Why in the hell would you take a wyvern when you could have 10D6 shots for the same price? Who needs to re-roll wounds when you can fire over twice as many shots?!

This is indeed peculiar, BUT damage-wise I am not sold: you can max out HWT with mortars at "only" 108 teams with 3 detachments for 864pts.
They will spit out 108d6 48" S4 shots, which averages in just 126 hits with their BS and on the T3 target with 4+ save they yield 42 wounds and heavy armored T5-T7 targets with 3+ save suffer only 14 wounds.

So it is mostly an interesting "screen" choice, which can bark from far corner of the table, than a weapon to dread.

I would love to face such an army though.

P.S. Until GW fixes brimstones it is very hard to compete with them for other horde units. I personaly think GW should have allowed only Pink Horrors to be in the unit from the start, while blue and brims must become the result of split rule, not an alternative pick.

Brimstones with changeling are so stupid amazing. They are the new R&H plague zombies. I'll probably grab some just because they are too good not to have.

On further inspection, you take a wyvern because it is BS4, renegade stuff is all BS5. It really does seem like AM are better than R&H in every way. I'll have to see what happens when I try them out. Still wish I could mix/match covenants.

Seems like R&H might be good troop filler and chaff in a larger CSM list who really want to be taking elites and heavy support slots but allows us to still get CPs.

 buddha wrote:
Seems like R&H might be good troop filler and chaff in a larger CSM list who really want to be taking elites and heavy support slots but allows us to still get CPs.

True, with R&H we get enough cheap units to fill out a Brigade plus the really good CSM stuff. Just a shame the R&H stuff is so weak and broken. Honestly did no one proof read this book?

I read somewhere the Chaos Fire Raptor is now limited to heavy bolters on the sponsors. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read somewhere the Chaos Fire Raptor is now limited to heavy bolters on the sponsors. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Base unit comes with two quad heavy bolters, can be replaced with two reaper batteries. That's it.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I read somewhere the Chaos Fire Raptor is now limited to heavy bolters on the sponsors. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Deny. It can still replace them with reaper batteries. They're not as good as they used to be mind you.
Both have the same range, bolters have 12 shots vs the reapers 6. Bolter is S5 and the reaper 7, AP and damage is the same. Reaper is 6 points more per.

Not really sure why you would want the reaper battery over the heavy bolters.

Few questioms about R&H
1) Did they get lumped with terrible morale rules again?
2) Did they get orders?
3) Do they actually actually have any advantages over IG, or are they just worse this time around?
4) Any particular stand out units?
5) Any Snipers at all? (Hoping for Chaos Ratlings for my converter Skaven...)

Asura Varuna wrote:
Few questioms about R&H
1) Did they get lumped with terrible morale rules again?
Yes? Well double random . Can be mitigated by enforcers ****
2) Did they get orders?
Nope. They get marks, and one of them isn't bad. One does nothing.
3) Do they actually actually have any advantages over IG, or are they just worse this time around?
..they can ally with Chaos? And get spawn and mutants ?
4) Any particular stand out units?
Not yet. Spawn in transports may be a winner if not faqd
5) Any Snipers at all?
Yes, marauders can take 2 sniper rifles per squad starting at 5 guys.
3+ to hit, can get -1 to hit and bonus armour in cover to be a solid little sniper unit for 34 pts (Hoping for Chaos Ratlings for my converter Skaven...)

**** The forgot to give enforcers and commanders the Character keyword. Wups

Got in two more games tonight with my Chaos gun line (5 quad heavy bolters, 2 butcher cannon leviathan dreadnoughts, a lord to let them re-roll 1's, 40 some odd brims and An'ggrath.

Both games An'ggrath barely survived through the end of two turns, but he did enough damage and soaked enough firepower that my gun line was pretty much untouched. Won both games pretty handily. Loving the "support An'ggrath's rampage" list I've got going so far. Working pretty well.

One game, I was able to out-shoot a Tau gun line and kill a Stormsurge in a little over 1 turn. He even seized on me and it still worked out, but he had some poor rolling on his fusion guns.

The second game, I was able to activate An'ggrath with only two wounds remaining and literally cleave a full strength renegade knight in half. And by in half, I mean he died outright. Before he swung. An'ggrath finished that game with 1 wound

Can someone sell me on Renegades as cheap troop choices in a KSons army? I was kinda hoping to replace some of the Tzeentch stuff in my army with Renegades but it's hard to justify taking a 40 point unit that does nothing but take up space on the board when I could instead take a 28 point unit that does nothing but take up space on the board, but can also cast smite.

Well..no. brimstones are better than all the Renegade stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But militia can take lascannons. Inaccurate ones.Making them non ignorable.

I just realised why warp talons get +2 attacks instead of +1 with there lighting claws they have two sets (4total) of them since there feet also have a pair of lightning claws.

Benlisted wrote:
So how are we thinking of kitting out our Contemptors? https://postimg.org/image/csea3mk9x/

Personally, I'm liking the look of double claws and either Hellflamers or Soulburners (2D3 2+ to hit mortal wounds is pretty tasty) depending on need to go anti-horde or anti-... bigger stuff. None of the bigger guns seem that inspiring, unless some LD shenanigans can be figured out with the Butcher Cannon? But how would you even model that thing...

Two Chainclaws and soul burners. The Soulburner is gona hit on a 2+, and within 6 inches of a chaos lord, you're gonna be rerolling 1's. 2D3 mortal wounds a turn, right before you slam into a knight and rip and tear is pretty solid options. There's a chance that rolling well, you can completely take a night off the table in a single turn. Contemptors seems straight up scary to big things now.

 Rydria wrote:
I just realised why warp talons get +2 attacks instead of +1 with there lighting claws they have two sets (4total) of them since there feet also have a pair of lightning claws.

Never thought about that, lolz.

Just ran my first 2k list against a Space Wolves army and two Imperial Knights, Won fairly handily, and was impressed with pretty much every unit I had. When was the last time you said that with a Chaos list?

Observations:

Contemptor with Chainclaws and Soul Burners is now a must take for me in any competitive list. 252 points for something that will straight up shred virtually any monstrous creature on the table is pretty awesome, those soul burners mortal wounds add up fast.

I currently believe we have the best psychic abilities in the game. Infernal Gaze is pretty nasty for sniping characters, and Warp Time is a gift from the gods. Prescience is pretty solid too, since it can be used for shooting OR assaults, but Warp Charge 7 is a bit hard to consistently get off.

When assaulting from reserve on troops in transports, remember that they disembark 3 inches when the transport is destroyed. That puts them at a 12 inch charge range if your opponent is smart, and then you're gonna be eating a lot of incoming fire the next turn.

Lightning Claws on Chaos Lords was very underwhelming, AP -2 is not high enough to make a substantial difference, especially when you're strength 4.

The Demon Prince (CSM) is surprisingly soft, so be careful where you commit him. Even a Khorne prince isn't a huge beatstick against monsters and knights.

Warp Talons are now one of the best units in my army. Being able to deep strike, and then use them to shut off an entire units overwatch is pretty awesome.

Watch out for Meltaguns on characters. They pack a surprising punch with a single shot.

Rhinos are actually durable enough to make taking a combi-melta worth it. Get out there, harass some stuff, and absorb some overwatch with 'em!

My only issue with warptalons is that they only have 2 attacks each, unless you bring 10 its not enough to justify their points cost in my opinion.

With Rhinos do you reccommend the combimelta or go full horde killer and go for the extra combi bolter and havoc giving you 4 str 4 and d6 str 5 at 24-12 and 8 str 4 and d6str 5 at 12-0.

Also if you want nasty prescience and noise marines go together beautifully, a 10 man squad will put out 30 str 4 shots a turn at 2+ and if there is a Lord or DP nearby thats a rerollable 2+, against str 4 youre averaging 14/15 wounds, and if someone does kill them they get ynnari lite and make an immediate shooting attack.

Couple of questions

Are Bloodcrushers any good this edition and how would you use them in a list?

Does Chaos have anything like the Imperium Assassins?

demontalons wrote:


With Rhinos do you reccommend the combimelta or go full horde killer and go for the extra combi bolter and havoc giving you 4 str 4 and d6 str 5 at 24-12 and 8 str 4 and d6str 5 at 12-0.

Also if you want nasty prescience and noise marines go together beautifully, a 10 man squad will put out 30 str 4 shots a turn at 2+ and if there is a Lord or DP nearby thats a rerollable 2+, against str 4 youre averaging 14/15 wounds, and if someone does kill them they get ynnari lite and make an immediate shooting attack.

I literally so this w noise Marines but keep a DP or chaos lord nearby to provide the reroll 1s aura instead of relying on a psychic ability.

What do we think about Defilers? They are pretty hardy now, but the loadout is a question. It seems to be torn between CC and fire support :

1) Long range, twin reaper autocannons, or twin lascannons? Given the damage potential of lascannons now, I can't help thinking they are the better choice. But BS 4+ though...

2) Close range, heavy flamers or the scourge? I feel like the heavy flamer is a better choice, simply because it may stop the opponent from charging you nilly willy. After all, 2d6 autohits are nasty. I'd even go ahead and add a combi flamer in there for real intense melee deterrent.

The scourge gives the defiler double the melee ooomph however, which is interesting. But I think I'd rather make him difficult to charge (and re charge after retreating), than committing him to a half combat half ranged unit.

Or perhaps it's best to accept the defiler is a full on ranged unit, take the havoc launcher instead. But at that point, you are better off taking a laspred or havocs instead, no?

Loopstah wrote:
Wings, Khorne, Malefic Talons and run it behind a bunch of Rhino's full of Berzerkers.

With Wings it can keep up with the Rhinos and still avoid being shot due to having <10 wounds.

When eveything piles out of the Rhinos he's there to provide tasty re-rolls and smash face.

Alternatively a biker lord will do the same thing for a bit less points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Conscripts are 4 pts with the same stat line as cultists except for the 5+ save where cultists have 6+ right? Then why are cultists 5 pts?

Conscripts can be in 50 man units, cultists get 40.
Conscripts can take orders, cultists cannot.
Conscripts Hva a 5+ save, cultists have 6+.

Can someone explain this to me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

They do have better BS and WS, they can also take flamers and stubbers.

With cc weapon and pistol they can shoot in cc and hit twice. Get a lord, and a sorcerer, use warptime to get into cc, reroll 1's to hit. could be pretty effective.

Some units are just better than others. Why are brimstone horrors 2 points? They have a 4++ and can cast smite

Does anyone know if Kytan Daemon Engines looks viable in this edition?

Gibs55 wrote:
Does anyone know if Kytan Daemon Engines looks viable in this edition?

I think they look pretty solid myself, especially if you use a Sorcer...excuse me, Slaughterpriest, to give them a free move so you have good odds of a turn 1 charge.

demontalons wrote:
My only issue with warptalons is that they only have 2 attacks each, unless you bring 10 its not enough to justify their points cost in my opinion.

The Warp Talon actually get +2 attacks for their lightning claws due to RAW on their datasheet saying they get 1 attack with this weapon when they fight, so each of their claws gives them an additional attack.

Does Chaos have anything like the Imperium Assassins?

Chaos lords with jump packs and a chainfist/chainsword are fantastic assassin characters.

 andysonic1 wrote:

demontalons wrote:
My only issue with warptalons is that they only have 2 attacks each, unless you bring 10 its not enough to justify their points cost in my opinion.

The Warp Talon actually get +2 attacks for their lightning claws due to RAW on their datasheet saying they get 1 attack with this weapon when they fight, so each of their claws gives them an additional attack.

I'm honestly not sure its not RAI as well.
Gives a purpose of holding two claws over one.

demontalons wrote:
My only issue with warptalons is that they only have 2 attacks each, unless you bring 10 its not enough to justify their points cost in my opinion.

With Rhinos do you reccommend the combimelta or go full horde killer and go for the extra combi bolter and havoc giving you 4 str 4 and d6 str 5 at 24-12 and 8 str 4 and d6str 5 at 12-0.

Also if you want nasty prescience and noise marines go together beautifully, a 10 man squad will put out 30 str 4 shots a turn at 2+ and if there is a Lord or DP nearby thats a rerollable 2+, against str 4 youre averaging 14/15 wounds, and if someone does kill them they get ynnari lite and make an immediate shooting attack.

Currently, RAW, Warp Talons get 3 attacks each, 4 on the champion. Read how the Lightning Claw Rule is written differently in their unit profile to the standard wording. Not sure if this is a mistake, but I'm gonna exploit it for the time being haha.

I liked the Combi Melta, because it also lets you scoot around and try to snipe a character who may have wandered away from the safety of other units, and it's an actual threat to big guys when you have multiple Rhinos circling him with Melta death,

So, do chaos marks on chaos space marines (troop choice) do anything?

I was reading through Index: Chaos and I couldn't see a cost or effect of it besides the whole buffing your own god's followers bit.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:

demontalons wrote:
My only issue with warptalons is that they only have 2 attacks each, unless you bring 10 its not enough to justify their points cost in my opinion.

With Rhinos do you reccommend the combimelta or go full horde killer and go for the extra combi bolter and havoc giving you 4 str 4 and d6 str 5 at 24-12 and 8 str 4 and d6str 5 at 12-0.

Also if you want nasty prescience and noise marines go together beautifully, a 10 man squad will put out 30 str 4 shots a turn at 2+ and if there is a Lord or DP nearby thats a rerollable 2+, against str 4 youre averaging 14/15 wounds, and if someone does kill them they get ynnari lite and make an immediate shooting attack.

Currently, RAW, Warp Talons get 3 attacks each, 4 on the champion. Read how the Lightning Claw Rule is written differently in their unit profile to the standard wording. Not sure if this is a mistake, but I'm gonna exploit it for the time being haha.

I liked the Combi Melta, because it also lets you scoot around and try to snipe a character who may have wandered away from the safety of other units, and it's an actual threat to big guys when you have multiple Rhinos circling him with Melta death,

Read the lightning claw entry in the chaos war gear section. It's different from the warp talons entry. In fact, all other instances of lightning claw are different from it. They get 2 attacks.

the_trooper wrote:
So, do chaos marks on chaos space marines (troop choice) do anything?

I was reading through Index: Chaos and I couldn't see a cost or effect of it besides the whole buffing your own god's followers bit.

Only point I can see to taking a Mark is to buy an Icon.

craggy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
So, do chaos marks on chaos space marines (troop choice) do anything?

I was reading through Index: Chaos and I couldn't see a cost or effect of it besides the whole buffing your own god's followers bit.

Only point I can see to taking a Mark is to buy an Icon.

Thanks. There's a lot for me to unlearn and learn with this edition.

So shooty CSM. Is it even possible or worth it? I feel like the loyalists do shooty better than we do, which makes my iron warriors sad. They've been mostly gathering dust this edition .

Boogles wrote:
So shoots CSM. Is it even possible or worth it? I feel like the loyalists do shooty better than we do, which makes my iron warriors sad. They've been mostly gathering dust this edition .

Honestly, I don't know.

I've played a few games against DA trying to play a Death Guard army, and I just get shot to death. I am learning on how to better utilize my units, and fine tuning my tactics.

I really think you've got to make a TAC list, with units set up to fulfill certain rolls. I expect as the meta settles, we'll see the same units over and over and Chaos lists will change to reflect that.

I currently think a Predator is a must have. Autocannons are nasty. Lascannons as well. I'm 50/50 on taking a Vindicator to accompany it. The Vindicator should mop up terminator squads and multi wound squads pretty quickly.

Deep Striking Terminator squads with a Librarian or whatever are going to be commonplace for a while. So deploying spread out and keeping your nice stuff bubble wrapped with fodder is going to be critical. Deployment in general seems like a much more important aspect of this game. Learning your opponents list and knowing what units you have to deal with their threats is going to be a critical part of the game now.

I think you can make a shooty list but it has to be made with Abbadon. I havent played in a while (7th) but to me i think chaos has a lot of viable builds by shooting is probably not as effective. I think Abbadon, havocs and predator spam is really good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we are really good at cqc shooting and combat. The list im looking at right now is 6 units of thousand sons in rhinos (half with warpflamers) 3 exalted sorcerers on discs, one helbrute and sehkmet termies for 2000 pts

I think virtually any build is viable right now, but shooty certainly isn't gonna outshoot some of the armies that are out there. I really agree with Wingeds, a TAC list is going to be the future of tournament play with Chaos.

I'm loving the predator with 4 lascannons. Serious threat to anything big on the field, and it draws some fire.

I like the looks of a Maulerfiend with Lasher tendrils, as he can pop vehicles or infantry in close combat pretty handily, and he's pretty fast.

After FW released their Chaos index I felt obliged to test new Warhound titan. During 7 edition it has rusted on my shelve.
When I first saw the price tag of 1500 points I was like WOW

I was very sceptial so the test game was conducted at 2500 points to add some meat to the army.

The list I used:


The photo of the army and the table (Magnus fell and broke so was proxied by BLOODTHIRSTER for extra heresy):


The army I fought against consisted of Guilliman (proxied by GUO lol ), two assault cannon razobacks, tiple las predator, 4 x las devastators, 4 x HB devastators, three units of scouts with rifles, Telion (sic!), two assassins (culexxus and vindicar), caestus assault flyer with 4 x multi melta devastators and a big biker squad with grav guns.
The mission was Deadlock from Maelstrom.
The deployment was #1 Spearhead assault. I put Titan in the back other units were deployed near the spearhead.
Opponent done the same despite obviously having more units to deploy, I asked why he isn't afraid of my magnus charging his whole army?
Well, the answer was provided in form of sucessful seize initiative roll, albeit reroll required to get "6".

I tried to give up (Nurgle forgive my lack of faith ) but opponent insisted that we must play.
His caestus flew near my titan, but missed all his melta shots. Missiles from it didn't go throught void shields.


His other army split shots between 30 plaguebearers and magnus. Vindicar missed his shot (even with reroll), culexux coulnd't wound Magnus, razobacks wasted assault cannons on plaguebearers...
When he realized he wasn't going to kill him, it was too late. Last hope was three hunter-killer missiles, but alas T7 and 4++ save protected him.
Magnus survived in 1 wound and after leadership test 11 plague bearers survived. Yay

My army rushed forward:


Titan obliterated Caestus with plasma cannon and scratched predator dealing 4 damage with bolter.
Magnus warp timed closer to the enemy, crushed one squad of devastators with smite (7 mortal wounds), buffed himself with prescience and charged scounts piling in so he can strike "Guilleman".
Meanwhile Typhus teleported behind enemy lines and smited 1 scout, rolled 12 on charge and moved so he can strike land speeder (which he did).
Unfortunately Roboutte's 3++ save was impregnable and Guilleman survived with 3W left and of course killed Magnus easily.

Next turn opponent killed all my infantry except 20 Poxwalkers who moved back to charge devastators from caestus.
After one more turn opponent surrendered after I killed predator and devastators with multi meltas.


With no efficient means to kill titan i would just kill one-two units per turn.


TL DR Titan proved to be VERY good versus jack of all trade list without massive infantry screen.
I think FW should price him at 1000 points max to make him viable for regular 2k games, but starting from 2500-3000 points he is worth considering if you play in vehicle/monster heavy environement.
Another observation is that poxwalkers are much more resilient due to lack of morale checks I lost almost as much plaguebearers from morale as from shooting.

My warhound which I picked up second hand just before 8th unfortunately has duel turbo lasers which don't seem that good anymore.

Good to see it preformed well, I like that the hurricane bolter is actually a legitimate choice of weapon now, I'm really tempted to try the titan flamer (luckily the titan is magnetized but there is noway I can replicate the paint job it has )

the_trooper wrote:
So, do chaos marks on chaos space marines (troop choice) do anything?

I was reading through Index: Chaos and I couldn't see a cost or effect of it besides the whole buffing your own god's followers bit.

Marks decide what daemon faction a unit belongs to, and therefore what HQ's it can synergize with. For example, a Warp Talon with <Mark of Tzeentch> is considered a Tzeentch Daemon and benefits from a Herald of Tzeentch's strength bonus.

 Rydria wrote:
My warhound which I picked up second hand just before 8th unfortunately has duel turbo lasers which don't seem that good anymore.

Good to see it preformed well, I like that the hurricane bolter is actually a legitimate choice of weapon now, I'm really tempted to try the titan flamer (luckily the titan is magnetized but there is noway I can replicate the paint job it has )

Nonono-no. Bolter is NOT a good choice.
Twin Plasma is THE choice.

I just have standart chaos warhound kit as was sold by FW.
Even though bolter can overwatch and better at killing SOME units 20 x S6 AP-2 shots cannot be justified by warhound's price tag.
Take two plasma and pray opponent brings something with Titanic or Building keyword.

Flamers are nice but counter intuitive. IMHO warhound shall stay as far as possible from the front line.

Lessons from my recent game against a Space Marine Parking Lot:

1) Malefic Lords are really good. Just running a pack of them into the enemy and blasting with smites will easily earn their points back.

2) Assault is terrible if your opponent deploys properly and I'm not really sure what to do about it. TAC Marine screens ensured my assault Leviathans did basically nothing of value despite charging in with Warptime (I would have cast it on Magnus but he died to the turn 1 volley). This game turned me off of assaults to the point I'm just building a full shooting list with Aetaos and a Renegade Knight Castigator.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Lessons from my recent game against a Space Marine Parking Lot:

1) Malefic Lords are really good. Just running a pack of them into the enemy and blasting with smites will easily earn their points back.

2) Assault is terrible if your opponent deploys properly and I'm not really sure what to do about it. TAC Marine screens ensured my assault Leviathans did basically nothing of value despite charging in with Warptime (I would have cast it on Magnus but he died to the turn 1 volley). This game turned me off of assaults to the point I'm just building a full shooting list with Aetaos and a Renegade Knight Castigator.

You need to shoot the screens away before you charge whatever they are protecting. Two Leviathans should easily have enough firepower to destroy most screens. If you need to just keep them out of LOS and have them charge in a bit later.

How would you deal with screens in a non-forgeworld list? Noise Marines? Plasma Havocs? Massed autogun cultists? They all seem pretty mediocre, but I can't find anything better.

Or maybe taking more Berzerkers would work? Charging the screen to kill it in one turn with a small part of the army, then charging the real targets with the rest of the army in the next turn?

Taking the right Chaos Mark is very important.

By taking, say, MON on my Warp Talons.

It means they become Nurgle Daemons. (In terms of keywords at least)
Which fulfills the requirements for disgusting resilience special rule.
Meaning, my MoN Warp Talons become resilient. 3+, 5++ (disgusting resilience), also benefiting from +1s from Nurgle Heralds.


On another note, I see people talking about Malefic Lords. Are these FW models?
I can't see them in the I.




Anyway, onto a separate topic.

So far, I've played quite a few games. Against most armies I am fine and I find the game to be rather fair.

However, I have a Tau opponent who tables everyone.
I've played a game with him this edition where I didn't even get a turn. He shot me off the table in his first turn.

Admittedly he got some lucky rolls. But still...

Any ideas? He runs mainly suits, stealth, commanders and some ghost keels.

C

mcsheehy wrote:
Taking the right Chaos Mark is very important.

By taking, say, MON on my Warp Talons.

It means they become Nurgle Daemons. (In terms of keywords at least)
Which fulfills the requirements for disgusting resilience special rule.
Meaning, my MoN Warp Talons become resilient. 3+, 5++ (disgusting resilience), also benefiting from +1s from Nurgle Heralds.

That doesn't actually work that way.

Unless they have Disgustingly Resilient on their datasheet or it specifically mentions they gain it (like the Daemon's Daemon Prince does) then they are just unit with the Nurgle and Daemon keywords, not Nurgle Daemons. Being a Nurgle Daemon doesn't grant Disgustingly Resilient, only units with the ability have it. It states "with this ability", and Warp Talons don't have that ability listed.

They do however get +1 Strength from Heralds of Nurgle and count for Epidemius' tally rule.

I haven't played in a LONG time, but 8th edition has already got me hooked again. Had to make a new account to share!

I'm coming from a Thousand Sons/ Tzeench point of view but I have had a lot of success thus far (only 1 game out of 5 has even been close.) These are some of my takeaways from my games so far.

1) Magnus is a beast. He is currently being sidelined until people in my gaming group have a stronger grasp on 8th as his maneuverability, survivability, relatively easy access to 2d6 mortal wounds (on an 8!) plus his melee power has been too much.
2) Brimstone horror units are the truth. I usually bring several units of 9 brimstone horrors with a blue horror (so they don't blow themselves up with smite.) For such a little point investment you get a very respectable speed bump with a 4++ and the potential to get off smites, even after they leave combat which they will do so you can shoot into the unit. I use them to bubblewrap everything or block off deep strike areas.
3) Rubric Marines are fantastic (just not against gene stealers!) A full 20 man unit with prescience and a daemon prince can do some work hitting on 2s and retooling 1s. Having an effective 2+ save vs 1 dmg weapons (or 1+ in cover) is fantastic, as is ignoring the moving penalty to heavy weapons. Forcing people to decide between using their multi damage weaponry against 1 wound models or against your big stuff is great.
4) CSM Daemon Prince's buff of reroll 1s works for both your chapter and the daemons of that chapter's type, which works great.
5) The Changeling is insanely good. Makes my brimstone bubbles annoying as hell, plus works on my tzeench daemon engines (-2 to hit that defiler that popped smoke)
6) Heldrake is good with friends. Very survivable but needs help with damage output. Had him and a flying daemon prince put the hurt on a flank last weekend.

edit:
7) Forgot to add that I do my aspiring sorcerers last and only if i haven't used my command reroll/ have command points, because if they perils they will die, and so will a lot of other things.
8) Also, I'm a fan of a unit of rubes with an aspiring sorcerer, 7 flamers and 2 bolsters (to die first). Surprisingly quick being able to freely advance and those flamers will make people pick up units and deter almost anything from charging unless they have that gene stealer cult power that denies overwatch.
Those are the things that came to mind and I thought I'd share.

Loopstah wrote:
They do however get +1 Strength from Heralds of Nurgle and count for Epidemius' tally rule.

Tzeentch ones also get the -1 to be hit from the changling.
A nearby Tzeentch herald can also cast 'boon of change on them'. It's a tasty little bonus.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
They do however get +1 Strength from Heralds of Nurgle and count for Epidemius' tally rule.

Tzeentch ones also get the -1 to be hit from the changling.
A nearby Tzeentch herald can also cast 'boon of change on them'. It's a tasty little bonus.

You cannot as they do not have the same faction keywords....

 sfshilo wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Loopstah wrote:
They do however get +1 Strength from Heralds of Nurgle and count for Epidemius' tally rule.

Tzeentch ones also get the -1 to be hit from the changling.
A nearby Tzeentch herald can also cast 'boon of change on them'. It's a tasty little bonus.

You cannot as they do not have the same faction keywords....

Faction keywords are just normal keywords that are also used when building the army. They work just like non-faction keywords in battle.

 skybax wrote:
How would you deal with screens in a non-forgeworld list? Noise Marines? Plasma Havocs? Massed autogun cultists? They all seem pretty mediocre, but I can't find anything better.

I would rather turn to fw for this, using quad heavy bolter rapiers, or renegade & heretic quad heavy launchers, or leviathans, or deredeos, or a fire raptor, or the like. But if you're sticking to just gw csm options, heavy bolter havocs & autocannon/heavy bolter predators aren't terrible for this job.

A couple quint flamer havoc squads in a rhino or land raider can also get the job done, but it takes them a turn to get into position, so they van only clear screens for a turn two charge, and if you go second and lose your transport turn one they're kind of sol.

 sfshilo wrote:
You cannot as they do not have the same faction keywords....

As was mentioned earlier, they share the same keywords due to the way <Mark of Chaos> reads.
Go check it out. You will see.

Hey,

I obviously didn't read the ruling properly. I didn't see the "with this rule" part.

Has anyone considered Fallen in Rhinos? Fallen are really cheap at 14 points. Take a faction called Fallen (take vanguard detachment) with Cypher as the hero. Stuff them all into Rhinos and drive forward.

I am actually liking plasma pistols more than plasma or melta guns because plasma pistols are really cheap. (7 points). A fallen with a plasma pistol still has 2 attacks melee and costs only 21 points. You can overcharge him and not feel a pinch even if he dies.

And you can take a LOT of plasma pistols in one squad of fallen. Imagine taking a few squads in a vangaurd detachment. hehe. dozens of plasma shots. And the pistols shoot even when they are locked in close combat!

Think GW kinda FAQ'd it so you can't use the <legion> etc placeholder keywords to match up another keyword.

awww boo. Well, we can still use chosen for the same effect, just that chosen are 2 points more expensive. Massed chosen in Rhinos with plama pistols are still possible even if fallen aren't.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Has anyone considered Fallen in Rhinos? Fallen are really cheap at 14 points. Take a faction called Fallen (take vanguard detachment) with Cypher as the hero. Stuff them all into Rhinos and drive forward.

I am actually liking plasma pistols more than plasma or melta guns because plasma pistols are really cheap. (7 points). A fallen with a plasma pistol still has 2 attacks melee and costs only 21 points. You can overcharge him and not feel a pinch even if he dies.

And you can take a LOT of plasma pistols in one squad of fallen. Imagine taking a few squads in a vangaurd detachment. hehe. dozens of plasma shots. And the pistols shoot even when they are locked in close combat!

The fallen cannot ride in rhinos.

I know...it's stupid. Really stupid.

But if you look at the wording in a rhino (or any other dedicated imperial/chaos transport) it says that they have to be a <Legion> or <Chapter> to ride. Fallen are neither of those, therefore fail to quality to ride in any transport.

That's right. At this time, they have forgotten how to get into their own transports.

 Latro_ wrote:
Think GW kinda FAQ'd it so you can't use the <legion> etc placeholder keywords to match up another keyword.

This.
GW specifically set it up so you cannot use the faction to unlock slots.

For example, how stupid would it be to have a CSM Warp Talon that has the Mark of Chaos of Khorne and the Legion name of Slaanesh? It could benefit from two opposing chaos powers at the same time.
It's a blatant abuse of the rules and not the intended use of the <legion> keyword


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
awww boo. Well, we can still use chosen for the same effect, just that chosen are 2 points more expensive. Massed chosen in Rhinos with plama pistols are still possible even if fallen aren't.

2 points adds up.

That said, combi-bolters on chosen are completely viable. They are great weapons for a fairly cheap platform.

Hey, does anyone have links to the GW FAQ?

I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

Seconding that combi-bolters are one of my favorite things atm. They're dirt cheap and can be bolted onto any vehicle (I realize loyalists get this too) or chaos champion.

For Rhinos its either 2xCombi-Bolter/Havoc or Combi-Bolter/Combi-Melta Havoc rn I think. If you're driving your rhinos forward you might as well threaten multi-wound stuff.

There might be several tournaments with Power points army composition (100 points i suppose, but rumors are TO might start from 88 points for obvious reasons).

Anyone spoted obvious disparity between power level and points in chaos index?

I know the genecult suffers heavily from power points, orks and nids are more or less balanced.

Daemons get nerfed due to brimstones becoming useless, but CSM overall benefit due to expensive equipment.

Fan67 wrote:
There might be several tournaments with Power points army composition (100 points i suppose, but rumors are TO might start from 88 points for obvious reasons).

Anyone spoted obvious disparity between power level and points in chaos index?

I know the genecult suffers heavily from power points, orks and nids are more or less balanced.

Daemons get nerfed due to brimstones becoming useless, but CSM overall benefit due to expensive equipment.

Why would your community even play Power-Level tournaments, if they're the kind of players who want to abuse point-inequity? Isn't the whole point of power-level to keep it casual?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Has anyone considered Fallen in Rhinos? Fallen are really cheap at 14 points. Take a faction called Fallen (take vanguard detachment) with Cypher as the hero. Stuff them all into Rhinos and drive forward.

I am actually liking plasma pistols more than plasma or melta guns because plasma pistols are really cheap. (7 points). A fallen with a plasma pistol still has 2 attacks melee and costs only 21 points. You can overcharge him and not feel a pinch even if he dies.

And you can take a LOT of plasma pistols in one squad of fallen. Imagine taking a few squads in a vangaurd detachment. hehe. dozens of plasma shots. And the pistols shoot even when they are locked in close combat!

Fallen can't go in rhinos. Look at the keywords

I find it silly that Fallen can't take the place of <legion>, but Red Corsairs can.

No rhinos for fallen is outright silly.

If fallen could be transported in vehicles chosen would be absolutely awful, since fallen are 2 pts cheaper and are exactly the same (except the keywords)

Well, leaving that aside. Anyone tried chosen with full plasma pistols? Its far cheaper than going full plasma chosen, and you are more willing to overcharge since losing a plasma pistol chosen is just 23 points.

And 12 inches pistol range is still decent. In Rhinos. by second turn, factoring the 3 inch deployment, you would be in range of stuff already.

1st turn Rhino moves 12 inches. 2nd turn deploy 3 inch, move 6 inch, fire 12 inch ... that's 33 inches reach by turn 2.

A Rhino can hold two squads of Chosen. That's ten plasma pistols. If you overcharge, that's 20 plasma damage on turn two coming out of just one Rhino.

They can even charge into combat to avoid getting shot at in the enemy's turn (depends on how they roll their charge range). And the pistols can then continue shooting.

How are people finding Possessed to be in 8th? I've got 15 of the things and I really want to make them work. What legion/mark of chaos do you think would make them work best? I'm thinking Khorne since they can potentially benefit from a Herald of Khorne, but...eh.

 Rydria wrote:
If fallen could be transported in vehicles chosen would be absolutely awful, since fallen are 2 pts cheaper and are exactly the same (except the keywords)

Well, not exactly, chosen can also take an icon, and have DTtFE while fallen has "fallen angels"



As for the pistols question, unless you are otherwise equipped for melee, I'd go with plasma guns over pistols any day.
Yea, they cost more-but they shoot twice as much, and also have the option to shoot just as good in double the range.

A Rhino can hold two squads of Chosen. That's ten plasma guns. If you overcharge, that's 40 plasma damage on turn two coming out of just one Rhino.


Pistol dudes wont be cheaper-because unless you got an extra melee weapon, you ALWAYS want the gun instead. its just far more efficient.

Its a much much bigger target though. And its more painful to lose a model if its a plasma gun chosen compared to a plasma pistol chosen.

A Rhino filled with plama gun chosen is a very big target. Just wrecking it and forcing a disembark gives a good chance of losing at least one model.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Its a much much bigger target though. And its more painful to lose a model if its a plasma gun chosen compared to a plasma pistol chosen.

A Rhino filled with plama gun chosen is a very big target. Just wrecking it and forcing a disembark gives a good chance of losing at least one model.

That just means they aren't shooting my two squads of quad heavy bolter rapiers pumping out 72 shots a round anchored by a deredeo dread as much. Point being all of your stuff should be an attractive or necessary target, otherwise, why bring it?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


That just means they aren't shooting my two squads of quad heavy bolter rapiers pumping out 72 shots a round anchored by a deredeo dread as much. Point being all of your stuff should be an attractive or necessary target, otherwise, why bring it?

How are you fitting your Dorito? I'm using Butcher Cannon Array + Greater Havocs + Heavy Bolters for maximum dakka. I think the FW Index is bugged because it doesn't say how to take the Hellfire Veil, but includes a point cost. I want to try the saker but it just seems...gimmicky.

Debilitate wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


That just means they aren't shooting my two squads of quad heavy bolter rapiers pumping out 72 shots a round anchored by a deredeo dread as much. Point being all of your stuff should be an attractive or necessary target, otherwise, why bring it?

How are you fitting your Dorito? I'm using Butcher Cannon Array + Greater Havocs + Heavy Bolters for maximum dakka. I think the FW Index is bugged because it doesn't say how to take the Hellfire Veil, but includes a point cost. I want to try the saker but it just seems...gimmicky.

I equip it the same as you are. Just add the points cost of the veil. The saker is a gimmick. Stay away from it. What you want to shoot with it and what it is good at killing are two different things.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How are people finding Possessed to be in 8th? I've got 15 of the things and I really want to make them work. What legion/mark of chaos do you think would make them work best? I'm thinking Khorne since they can potentially benefit from a Herald of Khorne, but...eh.

I would like them to work too but I feel that for the points, Warp Talons would work better. Herald will buff Warp Talons.

10 possessed in a rhino can be a very nasty distraction for most people. Plus as they have sucked so badly for so long most people will probably ignore them

Been mathing up oblits using the D3 average of 2 for their rolls vs 5 basic terminators with power swords and combi bolters - both units are more or less the same pts cost and the same style of unit e.g. termi armour, multi wounds, deep strike

3 obilts vs marines:
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=6&str=8&ap=2&dam=2&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3

2.2 dead

3 obilts vs a rhino
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=6&str=8&ap=2&dam=2&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

3.5 wounds

5 terminators (combi-bolters) vs marines
24"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3
1.1 dead

12"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=20&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3
2.22 dead


5 terminators (combi-bolters) vs rhino
24"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

0.741 wounds

12"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=20&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

1.48 wounds


So vs infantry more or less the same
less effective vs bigger stuff

but then you have the fact terminators move faster, this squad has one more wound and attack overall and speaking of combat actually has power weapons to deal out some hurt!

i'm thinking of just proxying my obilts as stock termies!

Forget heralds, the changling is where buffing deamons is at.

Too bad TS can't have warp talons/possessed. (though i guess he does work with disc dudes, but they are already characthers and avoid getting hurt.)

Too bad he's too slow to follow them properly...

If you want to play a Lord of skulls, Kharn the betrayer actually makes a pretty good buffer to run alongside the daemon engine. He just needs to stick within 1 inch, shouldn't be too hard considering how huge the LOS is. And given the LOS is T8, 28 wounds with a 5++, it will be a long time before anyone can target Kharn... lol

Has anyone had much exp with huron?

Just making a list and thought about a dark apostle to keep a load of cultists in line but hes like 40pts more and ye get a full lord, fist, psy powers and makes all units (red corsair but meh) units within 6" auto pass ld

seems like a great pick to run along with a bunch of cultists

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How are people finding Possessed to be in 8th? I've got 15 of the things and I really want to make them work. What legion/mark of chaos do you think would make them work best? I'm thinking Khorne since they can potentially benefit from a Herald of Khorne, but...eh.

Here are some ideas

Khorne
* Run them in a rhino with a Herald of Khorne on a Jugg behind them for a beatstick unit. The jugg can keep up with the rhino and hits like a truck.
* Keep a DP nearby to let them reroll 1s to wound.

Tzeentch
* Run them as tzeentch near the changling to give them a -1 to be hit.
* Keep a herald nearby to give them +1 STR and cast "Boon of Change" on the unit
* Again, keep them in a rhino for the first turn advance.
* Keep a DP nearby to let them reroll 1s to wound.

Slaanesh
* Rush in a rhino along some chariots or seekers.
* When in assault, cast "Hysterical Frenzy" on them to give them another round of assault
* Slaanesh heralds are excellent in assault. A herald on a seeker chariot is pure money
* Keep a DP nearby to let them reroll 1s to wound.

Nurgle
* Heralds can't really keep up
* Possessed can take advantage of the tallymaster, which gives them amazing perks.
* Keep a DP nearby to let them reroll 1s to wound.

Gahh just realised how irritating the Brass Scorpions weapon set up is. Can't shoot it's pistol and it's other weapons due to pistol rules.
On the plus side shooting into combat is cool, and shooting out of combat is cool , but it can't do both at the same time.

 Latro_ wrote:
Been mathing up oblits using the D3 average of 2 for their rolls vs 5 basic terminators with power swords and combi bolters - both units are more or less the same pts cost and the same style of unit e.g. termi armour, multi wounds, deep strike

3 obilts vs marines:
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=6&str=8&ap=2&dam=2&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3

2.2 dead

3 obilts vs a rhino
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=6&str=8&ap=2&dam=2&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

3.5 wounds

5 terminators (combi-bolters) vs marines
24"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3
1.1 dead

12"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=20&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3
2.22 dead


5 terminators (combi-bolters) vs rhino
24"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

0.741 wounds

12"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=20&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

1.48 wounds


So vs infantry more or less the same
less effective vs bigger stuff

but then you have the fact terminators move faster, this squad has one more wound and attack overall and speaking of combat actually has power weapons to deal out some hurt!

i'm thinking of just proxying my obilts as stock termies!

They should probably be Assault 3. Would make them a lot more attractive.

 sfshilo wrote:
You cannot as they do not have the same faction keywords....

This seems to be coming up a lot lately.
I have created a thread in YMDC where I outlined all the sections from the rules that show is possible.

If you disagree, please post in the thread and we can discuss.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730761.page#9459699

 labmouse42 wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
You cannot as they do not have the same faction keywords....

This seems to be coming up a lot lately.
I have created a thread in YMDC where I outlined all the sections from the rules that show is possible.

If you disagree, please post in the thread and we can discuss.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730761.page#9459699

Done. I would not get your hopes up trying to manipulate rules in eighth ed, GW is not keen on super friends lists and speaking as a former epidemius list runner in fifth it really should not exist. CSM shooting list would be broke as all hell with epidemius giving out bonuses like that.

If i trigger death to the false emperor with a frag grenade/or blastmaster do i do another d6 hit rolls with the weapon again ?

 Rydria wrote:
If i trigger death to the false emperor with a frag grenade/or blastmaster do i do another d6 hit rolls with the weapon again ?

Fight Phase only ability, does not work in shooting at all.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
If i trigger death to the false emperor with a frag grenade/or blastmaster do i do another d6 hit rolls with the weapon again ?

Fight Phase only ability, does not work in shooting at all.

Noise marines get to shot during the fight phase when they die.

I used to think the same thing, the wording says when they die.

It's pretty rad.

Huh, maybe an even larger incentive to give them an Icon of Excess? Or maybe not.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Huh, maybe an even larger incentive to give them an Icon of Excess? Or maybe not.

Well today I triggered death to the false emperor 7 times from 4 noise marines dying thanks to the combination of a icon of excess, + dark apostle, (letting me reroll all failed to hits in fight phase woo) but I got rule sharked by being told I only get to roll 7 extra hit die when I should have got an extra 7d6 hit die, since 1 attack with a frag grenade = 1d6 hit dice. Though to be fair we're all a bit confused with 8th being so vastly different.

I really want to witness the dream now, of a noise marine dying, rolling 6 for the number of frag hits he gets, then rolling 5+ on all of those so he gets to drop 7 frags upon his death, it would be glorious i'd love to see a single fallen noise marine bring about the death of an entire unit of 30+ models, a true apocalyptic end.


This is also probably why the doom siren is only D3 and not d6, can you imagine how insane it would be to trigger death to the false emperor, with a doom siren.

 Rydria wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Huh, maybe an even larger incentive to give them an Icon of Excess? Or maybe not.

Well today I triggered death to the false emperor 7 times from 4 noise marines dying thanks to the combination of a icon of excess, + dark apostle, (letting me reroll all failed to hits in fight phase woo) but I got rule sharked by being told I only get to roll 7 extra hit die when I should have got an extra 7d6 hit die, since 1 attack with a frag grenade = 1d6 hit dice. Though to be fair we're all a bit confused with 8th being so vastly different.

I really want to witness the dream now, of a noise marine dying, rolling 6 for the number of frag hits he gets, then rolling 5+ on all of those so he gets to drop 7 frags upon his death, it would be glorious i'd love to see a single fallen noise marine bring about the death of an entire 30+ models, a true apocalyptic end.

Music to my ears

lol has anyone noticed normal CSM squads can now take two heavy weapons at 10 models!

like how did i miss this!?

Another thing, the second special or heavy weapon does not actually replace your boltgun!

10 marines - 9 bolters and 2 heavy bolters it is.

 sfshilo wrote:
Done. I would not get your hopes up trying to manipulate rules in eighth ed, GW is not keen on super friends lists and speaking as a former epidemius list runner in fifth it really should not exist. CSM shooting list would be broke as all hell with epidemius giving out bonuses like that.

Thanks
I don't think that Epidemius combining with forgefiends is really that crazy. The bonus' the tallymaster gives out are more for assault based armies. Maulerfiends would be the better recipients of it.

Compare it to the other armies tricks. 3 knights plus 120 conscripts is a hell of a lot tougher. Scions and Tauox Primes are simply bonkers. Try running 8 nurgle daemon princes plus 19 nurgling bases. They are not even in the same category of power as synergy between CD daemons and CSM daemons.

 Latro_ wrote:
lol has anyone noticed normal CSM squads can now take two heavy weapons at 10 models!

like how did i miss this!?

Another thing, the second special or heavy weapon does not actually replace your boltgun!

10 marines - 9 bolters and 2 heavy bolters it is.

There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

 andysonic1 wrote:
There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

The only thing I can really see if someone wanted to take advantage of the 20 man blocks they can come in.

I'm not sure to the actual value of this, but it's something that could be done

Has anyone tried a defiler yet, i'm thinking of trying one out with twin flamer, twin heaby bolter, and a combi flamer.

 Rydria wrote:
Has anyone tried a defiler yet, i'm thinking of trying one out with twin flamer, twin heaby bolter, and a combi flamer.

Just got my 2 defilers in the mail, and will be trying them out tomorrow with almost the same load out (i think I'm going to try Twin Heavy Flamer, Reaper Auto Cannon, and Combi-Flamer). That with the Changeling and a daemon prince buffing them should be interesting.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

The only thing I can really see if someone wanted to take advantage of the 20 man blocks they can come in.

I'm not sure to the actual value of this, but it's something that could be done

I think I'd rather take 40 Cultists over 20 basic CSM.

Cotillion989 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Has anyone tried a defiler yet, i'm thinking of trying one out with twin flamer, twin heaby bolter, and a combi flamer.

Just got my 2 defilers in the mail, and will be trying them out tomorrow with almost the same load out (i think I'm going to try Twin Heavy Flamer, Reaper Auto Cannon, and Combi-Flamer). That with the Changeling and a daemon prince buffing them should be interesting.

Let me know how it turns out

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
Been mathing up oblits using the D3 average of 2 for their rolls vs 5 basic terminators with power swords and combi bolters - both units are more or less the same pts cost and the same style of unit e.g. termi armour, multi wounds, deep strike

3 obilts vs marines:
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=6&str=8&ap=2&dam=2&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3

2.2 dead

3 obilts vs a rhino
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=6&str=8&ap=2&dam=2&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

3.5 wounds

5 terminators (combi-bolters) vs marines
24"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3
1.1 dead

12"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=20&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=4&wnd=1&sv=3
2.22 dead


5 terminators (combi-bolters) vs rhino
24"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=10&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

0.741 wounds

12"
http://www.meltatotheface.com/wp-content/mathhammer.php?wsbs=3&atks=20&str=4&ap=0&dam=1&tou=7&wnd=10&sv=3

1.48 wounds


So vs infantry more or less the same
less effective vs bigger stuff

but then you have the fact terminators move faster, this squad has one more wound and attack overall and speaking of combat actually has power weapons to deal out some hurt!

i'm thinking of just proxying my obilts as stock termies!

They should probably be Assault 3. Would make them a lot more attractive.

My money is on a near future release that gives the 'Cult of Destruction' keyword an extra attack, probably within close proximity of a Warpsmith (thinking a la 'Traitor's Hate/Legions ). Until then, my mass Oblits will have to to run with Epidemius...

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol has anyone noticed normal CSM squads can now take two heavy weapons at 10 models!

like how did i miss this!?

Another thing, the second special or heavy weapon does not actually replace your boltgun!

10 marines - 9 bolters and 2 heavy bolters it is.

There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

Which is kinda sad, I had high hopes for basic csm when they wrote in the 8th ED preview that they should be worth to take now.

Greed wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol has anyone noticed normal CSM squads can now take two heavy weapons at 10 models!

like how did i miss this!?

Another thing, the second special or heavy weapon does not actually replace your boltgun!

10 marines - 9 bolters and 2 heavy bolters it is.

There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

Which is kinda sad, I had high hopes for basic csm when they wrote in the 8th ED preview that they should be worth to take now.

As a World Eaters player I was excited to field hordes of CSM, but clearly I'll just have to wait for the Codex.

Greed wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol has anyone noticed normal CSM squads can now take two heavy weapons at 10 models!

like how did i miss this!?

Another thing, the second special or heavy weapon does not actually replace your boltgun!

10 marines - 9 bolters and 2 heavy bolters it is.

There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

Which is kinda sad, I had high hopes for basic csm when they wrote in the 8th ED preview that they should be worth to take now.

Unless, yaknow, you need troops to fill your FoC

I mean, devs/havoks were always regular marine dudes with better gun access. nothing is new in that department. the devs/havoks just occupy another slot.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Greed wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol has anyone noticed normal CSM squads can now take two heavy weapons at 10 models!

like how did i miss this!?

Another thing, the second special or heavy weapon does not actually replace your boltgun!

10 marines - 9 bolters and 2 heavy bolters it is.

There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

Which is kinda sad, I had high hopes for basic csm when they wrote in the 8th ED preview that they should be worth to take now.

Unless, yaknow, you need troops to fill your FoC

I mean, devs/havoks were always regular marine dudes with better gun access. nothing is new in that department. the devs/havoks just occupy another slot.

If you're taking base CSM, ever, it is a tax. You can take Renegade Mutants, or Militia, or Deamons, or Cultists. Literally anything would be a better use of your points over basic marines.

Not only that, but even thinking you need troops in 8th is a red herring. You can use other detachments that make better use of your points. CP is not the end all be all to lists. I'm finding I want one unit of berzerkers and one blob of renegade mutants as troops, that's all I need from that slot.

is it me or is the warhound titan massively overcosted ?

My friend just showed me his Hiephrant bio-titans stats and it completely outclasses the warhound for a mere 300pts, the only thing the warhound has over it is void shield save is better than a 5++ at least at full HP.

What are you guys using on you berzerker champions? Chainsword/Chain Axes like the rest of the squad or maybe a Power Axe?

 andysonic1 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Greed wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
lol has anyone noticed normal CSM squads can now take two heavy weapons at 10 models!

like how did i miss this!?

Another thing, the second special or heavy weapon does not actually replace your boltgun!

10 marines - 9 bolters and 2 heavy bolters it is.

There's never a reason to take base CSM. You either go Chosen for more skirmishing or Havocs for more long ranged firepower. They will always be doing either job better.

Which is kinda sad, I had high hopes for basic csm when they wrote in the 8th ED preview that they should be worth to take now.

Unless, yaknow, you need troops to fill your FoC

I mean, devs/havoks were always regular marine dudes with better gun access. nothing is new in that department. the devs/havoks just occupy another slot.

If you're taking base CSM, ever, it is a tax. You can take Renegade Mutants, or Militia, or Deamons, or Cultists. Literally anything would be a better use of your points over basic marines.

Not only that, but even thinking you need troops in 8th is a red herring. You can use other detachments that make better use of your points. CP is not the end all be all to lists. I'm finding I want one unit of berzerkers and one blob of renegade mutants as troops, that's all I need from that slot.

The other detachments only really work if you can afford to take a hell lot of HQs.
Troops may not be the top go-getters (at least not all troops), but they do usually serve the purpose of "have a bunch of bodies on the table" pretty well.
And non-marine armies don't have an equivalent "base trooper with extra weapon options" in heavy.

Hello all, how does everyone feel about Abaddon in this edition?
He's been my workhorse every game I've played with him - I usually bubble wrap him with 5-10 Khorne termies to deepstrike with to delete whatever is in front of them in CC. I even took down Girlyman in solo combat thanks to Death to the False Emperor. Plus the morale bubble and re-rolls to hit just make it oh so sweet to run him. I'm just having trouble figuring what to surround him with for maximum point efficiency.

Abby feels okay right now, certainly not Girlyman levels. I think GW is setting it up to either have him ascend in some way, or die off because he doesn't really feel like the "big bad" of the universe.

Imagine if they have it so Be'lakor kills Abaddon to increase his power to absurdly high levels.

Not sure how I'd feel about that.

Honestly, I would be fine with that. abbaddon, model wise is an atrocity. By modern sculpt standards, he is a stunty. Belakor is one of the finest sculpts GW has ever produced. Either way, the new bad guy has got to be buffed beyond current tabletop standards because right now, the face of chaos is not chaos's best model by a long shot.

I'd prefer a daemon being the face of chaos, personally. Bel'akor would be a fantastic choice to be the prime Chaos Undivided character.

Hey guys.

EVENTUALLY received my Imperial Armour book! YAY!

Looking through it there are so many tasty treats!

Giant Chaos Spawn is my fav so far!

At this point in time I am looking for a somewhat competitive Chaos list. Looking to take part in some tournaments.
But this is me starting back after a 4 year hiatus.

My collection so far consists of 2 DG starter sets (Love the models) and a Chaos Knight. (Always wanted one)

At present I am considering running a high Toughness/Wound list with Brimstones as my core troops.

Just looking for some pointers.
As far as I can see, Decimator with twin Soulburner Petard seems to be the most cost effective unit in the IA.
However, I also like the Fire Raptor. But at 350 pts, its a fairly large investment. Albeit a lot of Dakka!

Any pointers?
Is the Fire Raptor worth the investment?

I have no doubt Im going to make/buy some Giant Chaos Spawn though...

Thanks guys.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Debilitate wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


That just means they aren't shooting my two squads of quad heavy bolter rapiers pumping out 72 shots a round anchored by a deredeo dread as much. Point being all of your stuff should be an attractive or necessary target, otherwise, why bring it?

How are you fitting your Dorito? I'm using Butcher Cannon Array + Greater Havocs + Heavy Bolters for maximum dakka. I think the FW Index is bugged because it doesn't say how to take the Hellfire Veil, but includes a point cost. I want to try the saker but it just seems...gimmicky.

I equip it the same as you are. Just add the points cost of the veil. The saker is a gimmick. Stay away from it. What you want to shoot with it and what it is good at killing are two different things.

I wouldn't say that yeah it's a gimmick but it actually works wonders in a Nurgle force with plenty of LD debuffing shenanigans plus I take 2 butcher cannon contemptor and 2 deredeo one with butcher the other with saker. The high amount of butcher cannon rounds ensures that I always wound stuff every time especially if I really want it dead which the saker does well

Hi people. I just wanted to know if in your opinion there was still a reason to take chosen with plasma/meltaguns over terminators with combi-melta/plasma.

So played a game last night first time using my DG, attached some pics so you can get a feel for the game.

Some thoughts:

1. Obilterators as much as i'v tried them now in 3 games are rubbish. They just dont seem to do anything reliable and always feel there is something that could do what they do better.
2. Plague marines feel just as resilient as before if a little more so, DR saved my ass so much! also easy to forget they have plague knives which have a re-roll of a 1 to wound
3. Defilters! wow they are back from a combat perspective i took the scourge on mine and it literally killed 4 killakans in one round of combat. I had this epic paring with a daemon prince with warptime... he made it move 16" first turn then supported it in combat with the re-rolls of 1's! defo gone from my 'i take it cus i like the model i made even thou its crap' to... i want another one!
4. Plasmaguns actually seem pretty meh now, maybe its because i was against orks but they just feel lackluster compared to meltas which are just as good as before
5. Hit on a sweet tactic with falling back. So a couple of times i didnt want my PM's in combat and my army is mech... loads of orks will do that to you. So wehn you fallback... hop back into your rhino! its such a simple tactic and i never even considered doing it until the opportunity presented its self! really helped.
6. Rhinos i'm starting to see are as much a charge in to p**s you opponent off as they are a transport. I just plouged one into 20 boyz to stop them going after my predator... he's of have to of fallen back which ofc meanss no charging!
7. Spawn! was turned off by their slower movement but boy they are pretty sweet now:
- d6 attacks 'each' not per model
- -1 ld to nearby units
- 4 wounds
- decent -2 2dam and the random roll is sick (2 attacks or -4! ap or re-roll to wound)
8. Damage is such a new thing and something its easy not to ask about, esp for lords and DPs... its easy to get all charge happy against stuff like killakans till you realise they do 3 dam! think i'm gonna base a lot of decisions soley on damage from now on.
9. Command points, used all 6 literally saved my ass all 6 times. Easy to forget to use them, dont forget!

 l0k1 wrote:
What are you guys using on you berzerker champions? Chainsword/Chain Axes like the rest of the squad or maybe a Power Axe?

Having a Fist might be useful to get in a S10 set of attacks. And looking at it, you could also run your 'zerker champ with a pair of lightning claws for a bonus attack +rerolls.

 Latro_ wrote:

7. Spawn! was turned off by their slower movement but boy they are pretty sweet now:
- d6 attacks 'each' not per model

What's the difference?

 Nurgle23 wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

7. Spawn! was turned off by their slower movement but boy they are pretty sweet now:
- d6 attacks 'each' not per model

What's the difference?

You roll the number of attacks per model, not per unit.
So the average number is still the same, but the new way swings less. So less situations where every Spawn has 1 or 6 attacks.

So charge with the spawn resolve overwatch roll to charge then roll for attacks to ensure minimum shenanigans?

The rules say you roll for the number of attacks right before you go to make use of the stat.

So you'd roll for the number of Attacks in the Fight Phase just after you've activated the unit and either before or after you've made their Mutation Table roll (since both would occur at the same time given when Mutated Beyond Reason says it occurs).

Has anyone tried Fabius Bile he looks interesting now i'm thinking of running him with some terminators in a spartan or a lesser transport depending on if I plan to have them ride with him or deep strike once he arrives at the front.

I mean all his results he offers are good now +1str, and +1 attack help chop things up while +1 toughness is a modest increase in durability against small arms.

Played a game vs Sister today. Got tabled(pretty much. Had Kharn and 2 rhinos left)

I ran
Kharn

Prince
Wings
Dual talon

9 Berzerkers
1 Power Sword
Icon
Rhino

9 Berserkers
2 Plasma Pistols
Champ Plasma Pistol/PowerFist
Icon
Rhino

9 Berzerkers
Rhino

He ran 3 squads of 15 sisters, Celestine, Jacobs, a squad of Seraphim, and penitent engine. I drastically underestimated the combat abilities of Celestine. A squad of berzerkers charged her and took her to down to 1 wound then she wasted the unit. Which opened the prince up to being hosed down by a bunch of bolters. I murdered his penitent engine and a squad of sisters. Granted, I expected him to bring guard(why I brought power fist and Plasma pistols). I also kind rolled crap. I would definitely replace kharn with a dark apostle next game.

 Rydria wrote:
Has anyone tried Fabius Bile he looks interesting now i'm thinking of running him with some terminators in a spartan or a lesser transport depending on if I plan to have them ride with him or deep strike once he arrives at the front.

I mean all his results he offers are good now +1str, and +1 attack help chop things up while +1 toughness is a modest increase in durability against small arms.

He seems similar to Illuminor Szeras over in the Necron Index, and apparently people have been having some success with him. Bile is probably worth checking out.

 l0k1 wrote:
Played a game vs Sister today. Got tabled(pretty much. Had Kharn and 2 rhinos left)

I ran
Kharn

Prince
Wings
Dual talon

9 Berzerkers
1 Power Sword
Icon
Rhino

9 Berserkers
2 Plasma Pistols
Champ Plasma Pistol/PowerFist
Icon
Rhino

9 Berzerkers
Rhino

He ran 3 squads of 15 sisters, Celestine, Jacobs, a squad of Seraphim, and penitent engine. I drastically underestimated the combat abilities of Celestine. A squad of berzerkers charged her and took her to down to 1 wound then she wasted the unit. Which opened the prince up to being hosed down by a bunch of bolters. I murdered his penitent engine and a squad of sisters. Granted, I expected him to bring guard(why I brought power fist and Plasma pistols). I also kind rolled crap. I would definitely replace kharn with a dark apostle next game.

I actually like Kharn a lot. With a big squad nearby to buff, he's an absolute monster. Re-rolling all your misses and hitting on 3+ means that you're basically going to hit 90% of the time. I'm thinking I need a Kharybdis to drop him and his 19 (or so) closest buds down range. Maybe toss abaddon into the mix

I'm also liking bloodthirsters a lot as a decently durable fast threat. But I think you need to run them in pairs. One can get downed, but most armies aren't going to kill two before they hit the lines.

Speaking of the Kharybdis, I have a game on pause where I used it. One squad of 10 Rubrics, one squad of 5, Ahriman and an Exalted Sorcerer were placed inside of it. It made for a pretty lethal alpha strike, especially with the kharybdis itself charging into the Eldar tanks with the help of Warptime.

The obvious problem with it is durability; for 300 points, you're getting a model that will do an amazing job on turn one and then just die in the return fire. 3+ and no invulnerable save means it's far squishier vs. anti-tank than what I'm used to as a Thousand Sons player.

Of course the Kharybids being such a spooky and juicy target may actually be a boon; all of my Eldar opponents heavy weapons got shot at the drop pod rather than my backline shooting leviathan and contemptor dreadnought.

 luke1705 wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
Played a game vs Sister today. Got tabled(pretty much. Had Kharn and 2 rhinos left)

I ran
Kharn

Prince
Wings
Dual talon

9 Berzerkers
1 Power Sword
Icon
Rhino

9 Berserkers
2 Plasma Pistols
Champ Plasma Pistol/PowerFist
Icon
Rhino

9 Berzerkers
Rhino

He ran 3 squads of 15 sisters, Celestine, Jacobs, a squad of Seraphim, and penitent engine. I drastically underestimated the combat abilities of Celestine. A squad of berzerkers charged her and took her to down to 1 wound then she wasted the unit. Which opened the prince up to being hosed down by a bunch of bolters. I murdered his penitent engine and a squad of sisters. Granted, I expected him to bring guard(why I brought power fist and Plasma pistols). I also kind rolled crap. I would definitely replace kharn with a dark apostle next game.

I actually like Kharn a lot. With a big squad nearby to buff, he's an absolute monster. Re-rolling all your misses and hitting on 3+ means that you're basically going to hit 90% of the time. I'm thinking I need a Kharybdis to drop him and his 19 (or so) closest buds down range. Maybe toss abaddon into the mix

I'm also liking bloodthirsters a lot as a decently durable fast threat. But I think you need to run them in pairs. One can get downed, but most armies aren't going to kill two before they hit the lines.

Kharn wasn't bad but I think the buffs and the cost of a dark apostle make it a little more appealing. I'd love a Kharybdis, but our shop doesn't allow FW except in pick up games(thanks to one super douche)

Do the Forge World Transports require <Legion> for the occupants? Fallen and Fabius could use a ride.

 Eldarain wrote:
Do the Forge World Transports require <Legion> for the occupants? Fallen and Fabius could use a ride.

They are weirdly worded.

They can transport legion Or mark of chaos infantry.

Of course this doesn't help fallen or fabius who have neither.

I can't think of an example of an infantry unit without the legion rule, which has a mark of chaos for this change to even matter.

Dreadclaw can transport 10 <LEGION> or <MARK OF CHAOS> INFANTRY (or 1 Contemptor/Hellbrute)

Kharybdis can transport 20 <LEGION> or <MARK OF CHAOS> INFANTRY (or 1 Contemptor/Hellbrute/Rapier)

The <Mark of Chaos> rule is so that it can transport daemons. So now you have a transport option for your daemonettes, which may be good?

Daemons don't have the mark of chaos rule.

Huh, so they don't. I thought the Daemonic Allegiance rule was essentially the same thing but a closer reading shows its clearly otherwise.

Anyone some ideas for a 1000 point tournament list?

My actual list looks like that: 2x DP with Wings, Sword
4x3 Spawn
1x4 Bikes with 2x Plasma

Thats near 1000 points, but someone in the armylist thread meant i should rework it.

So i am asking here. Hope some of you can help me further

Anyone fought Sisters of battle in 8th ed using CSM? Specifically Celestine. I fought her along with 3 squads of seraphim and got beat pretty bad. And I was using 3 squads of cultists, 3 sqads of Khorne Berserkers and even two hellbrutes. Still got beat bad.

How to handle her and her seraphim squads? (They can all deep strike in btw).

Hey guys,

I'm looking for a little input for my Chaos list.

Here : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/731254.page#9467216

I'm also building a Mathhammer spreadsheet.

I've linked it below.
So far I've only done the Renegade Knight.
Any suggestions/comments. Feel free. The earlier I know about them the better.

Here's a link.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit?usp=sharing

The existing sheet lets you change, Wounds, Models, Saves etc to see what is effective/innefective against certain model types.

I will make a quick reference for all the models too. Thats a WIP.

Chris

Love mathhammer. Might need some commentary to understand what's going on

Particularly interested in how the various gunline units fair point to point

I will include a brief explaination.

The formulas don't need to be 'Understood' just what they are calculating.

I will try and create a separate page for each of the units.
Grouping, HQ, Troops,Elites etc. For ease of use.

I will also have a "Contents page" with links to each unit.

I will do a few side by side comparisons for Troops, Elites grouped. Against T4, T5, T6 etc.


While I'm working on it, feel free to make a copy.


Wow Chaos Lords are tough...

So... Many... Options...

This thread seems to have flown right under my raider, huh.

Well I'll add my 2c to World Eaters tactica:
- Khorne Terminators are great! Take a unit, drop in and hold up a problem unit for several turns (Icon of Wrath makes them better than most termies). I'm running mine with combi-plasmas and power fists, which are quite a point sink but they hit like a damned truck.
- Berzerkers (I don't have to tell you this) are THE best combat unit in the game (besides characters). Kit them out with Chainaxes, Chainswords and a Power fist on the Champion then stick them in a rhino.
- Lords, damn these guys are tough; especially Jugger and termie lords. But like someone said above: you might want to take an apostle instead.
- Khan, for his points? Eh, his strength is a bit dissapointing for his points, take an apostle instead.
- Bloodthirsters: Oh my. Oh me oh my. D6 damage per wound? Yes please! They're very tough for their points and will take a sizable amount of fire to drop (played a game today where a Bloodthirster on 1 wound made 6 daemon saves, rolling only 6s!).
- Daemon prince of Khorne: to CSM or to Daemon? I've been running the Daemon version. Why you may ask? +1S and +1A. Why is that good? Wounding T8 vehicles on a 3+ that's why! (In the same game mentioned above, my Bloodthirster and DP were tag teaming all of my opponants high toughness vehicles: they were dropping like flies!)

From what I've experienced so far, World Eaters are looking like one of the stronger CSM armies.

Ok, so a few more stat lines added to the Spreadsheet.

Struggling to think how I will represent the re-rolling 1's for the lord and DP though.


Edit :

All HQ's added. (Excluding Daemons - for now)

Next LOW's - Will do this tomorrow.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit#gid=2084351568

mcsheehy wrote:
Struggling to think how I will represent the re-rolling 1's for the lord and DP though.

Do you mean you don't know the mathhammer for it or you don't know how to add it to other units datasheets??

I would also like to add a tactic from yesterday. Disembarking a squad of zerkers from a rhino, then moving the rhino behind the unit you are about to charge with the zerkers is fantastic. The rhinos are extremely survivable now so they create a better mobile shield than the were in the past. They can also help cut units off from falling back.

 l0k1 wrote:
I would also like to add a tactic from yesterday. Disembarking a squad of zerkers from a rhino, then moving the rhino behind the unit you are about to charge with the zerkers is fantastic. The rhinos are extremely survivable now so they create a better mobile shield than the were in the past. They can also help cut units off from falling back.

They're also good for absorbing overwatch.

Ok, I think I got it worked out.

The formula :

="Attacks"*(((7-"Hit roll")/6)+((1/6)*((7-"Hit roll")/6)))*((7-"To wound")/6) * "Max Damage" * "Number of models"

Theory for the hits.

3's to hit with reroll 1's

4/6 + (1/6 * 4/6) = 24/36 + 4/36 = 28/26 = 7/9

Anyone want to check this?

mcsheehy wrote:
@Mrhappyface - Im struggling to create a formula to represent it.

One that can be used and taken into consideration for all models.

The formula for the chance to hit when re-rolling 1s is 7x/36 where the units original to hit chance was x/6, i.e. a BS of 4+ with re-rolls of a 1 would go from a 2/6 chance to hit to a 14/36 chance to hit.

FAQ out

big one is chaos daemons daemon prices are 8 wounds!

CSM ones are still better if you are running mixed lists due to buffing legion and daemons.

And warptalons now only have 2 attacks.

Loopstah wrote:
CSM ones are still better if you are running mixed lists due to buffing legion and daemons.

Unless you want the Daemon mark buffs, the Khorne DP with +1S and +1A is a monster for killing big things like Morkanaughts, Knights, etc. (basically anything with T8)

2xKhorne DP VS Bloodthirster (360pts VS 340pts)

Khorne DP:
9 attacks each BS2+ , re-rolling to hit, at S9 AP-2 D2

Bloodthirster:
6 attacks BS2+ at S11 AP-4 Dd6

VS an Imperial Knight

Khorne DPs:
15.6 wounds on the Knight (for comparison two CSM Khorne DP do 10.4 wounds)

Bloodthirster:
11.7 wounds on the Knight


Of course, a Khorne DP + a Bloodthirster are even better against a knight because of the re-roll aura:
21 wounds on the Knight

I am personally running a double team of a Khorne DP and a WoK Bloodthirster in my 2000pt list (they are Fluffy and Chuckles respectively).

 mrhappyface wrote:
- Berzerkers (I don't have to tell you this) are THE best combat unit in the game (besides characters). Kit them out with Chainaxes, Chainswords and a Power fist on the Champion then stick them in a rhino.
- Khan, for his points? Eh, his strength is a bit dissapointing for his points, take an apostle instead.

The FAQ states:

Q. If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the
Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight
phase do they fight for the second time?

A. Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge. If the unit
did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did
charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with,
then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then
you can select your unit to fight with for the second
time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s
opportunities to fight – unless of course there are no
other eligible units to select to fight with).

Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence
of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive
Stratagem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes
ability) may be used to fight in between the unit’s first
and second ‘fight’.

Kharn and Berzerkers both just got one of the biggest buffs ever. I was playing it that they get one charge attacks and one fight attacks, totaling two. However, they get BOTH their fight phases IN THE INITIAL CHARGERS FIGHT PHASE TIME! This FORCES your opponent to either use a counter-attack stratagem or lose whatever it is you just charged. This is...HUGE!

They will turn any unit they hit into a fine red mist. The problem is that now they are left in the open during the next shooting attack. Make sure you have units to guard them or run distraction

So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

 l0k1 wrote:
They will turn any unit they hit into a fine red mist. The problem is that now they are left in the open during the next shooting attack. Make sure you have units to guard them or run distraction

You need to setup one huge assault using everything in your army pretty much. You can't let one or two things go in alone, everything had to move in together so your opponent is overwhelmed.

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

Initial game of 8th last friday went very well

chaos lord
daemon prince of slaanesh with talons and wings

3x 10 noise marines
8 sound guns
2 blastmasters
icon, doom sirens and power sword on captain

chaos vindi
1 rhino
1 deredeo with the malignos saker
1 contemptor with butcher canon in a dreadclaw pod


Opinions
New noise marines are really fun, ended up doing more shooting on enemy turns than my own. Suprised how decent they are in close combat for how much dakka they put out. I will need more testing but they felt too good in combat for a shooty squad, but having only fought vanilla marines my opinion may change after facing more opponents.

The ignoring cover helped them clear out termies and scouts hiding in ruins. Overall really like them, might drop the icons and doom sirens to save points though as the squads run very expensive.

Chaos Deredeo was strong fire support working as anti tank, wasnt as impressed with the vindicator, only managing 1-2 wounds here and there. No opinion on contemptor as it turned up and got plasma'd to death.

Chaos lord just bullied a few small squads, daemon prince got into a fight vs 3 squads and did fairly well, took down a character and half a squad before dying.

Arachnofiend wrote:

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

But the Ritual rules only mention them as being treated as reinforcements for the purpose of putting them on the table AFTER you've summoned them. Meaning they can't move that turn, and they suffer penalties for firing weapons. It doesn't say that your selection is limited to what you've paid for and have sitting in reserves. That's why I asked if there is specific clarification on summoning in the rulebook. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to have to roll to see how high of a Power Rating you can summon if you've already paid for them in points. It would be a glorified deepstrike that is even more restrictive in terms of placement, runs the risk of killing your character, and nothing more.

zend wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

But the Ritual rules only mention them as being treated as reinforcements for the purpose of putting them on the table AFTER you've summoned them. Meaning they can't move that turn, and they suffer penalties for firing weapons. It doesn't say that your selection is limited to what you've paid for and have sitting in reserves. That's why I asked if there is specific clarification on summoning in the rulebook. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to have to roll to see how high of a Power Rating you can summon if you've already paid for them in points. It would be a glorified deepstrike that is even more restrictive in terms of placement, runs the risk of killing your character, and nothing more.

Page 214 of the rulebook gives the rules for setting aside reinforcement points in matched play and explicitly points out daemon summoning as one of the types of reinforcements you would need to pay for. Probably not a good idea to debate rules unless you have read the rulebook yet.

The fact that summoning is a glorified deep strike really isn't that bad, as being able to deep strike units that can't normally do so is a fairly potent ability. I've been using it a lot to get Exalted Flamers safely in position to do their thing with great success and I'm sure a more skilled player can come up with better tricks than that.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
- Berzerkers (I don't have to tell you this) are THE best combat unit in the game (besides characters). Kit them out with Chainaxes, Chainswords and a Power fist on the Champion then stick them in a rhino.
- Khan, for his points? Eh, his strength is a bit dissapointing for his points, take an apostle instead.

The FAQ states:

Q. If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the
Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight
phase do they fight for the second time?

A. Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge. If the unit
did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did
charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with,
then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then
you can select your unit to fight with for the second
time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s
opportunities to fight – unless of course there are no
other eligible units to select to fight with).

Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence
of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive
Stratagem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes
ability) may be used to fight in between the unit’s first
and second ‘fight’.

Kharn and Berzerkers both just got one of the biggest buffs ever. I was playing it that they get one charge attacks and one fight attacks, totaling two. However, they get BOTH their fight phases IN THE INITIAL CHARGERS FIGHT PHASE TIME! This FORCES your opponent to either use a counter-attack stratagem or lose whatever it is you just charged. This is...HUGE!

Jesus Christ! I was playing it the same as you! If only I had read the FAQ before I played yesterday I'd have been steamrolling Orks left and right! Somebody pinch me! GW can't be giving this much love to a chaos cc unit!

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

zend wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

zend wrote:
So are the Daemonic Ritual rules expanded upon in the full rulebook or something? I've seen multiple people saying you have to pay for your "summons" in points ahead of time like in Age of Sigmar, yet the index says nothing of the sort.

Summons are treated as reinforcements, which the BRB says you have to pay for.

But the Ritual rules only mention them as being treated as reinforcements for the purpose of putting them on the table AFTER you've summoned them. Meaning they can't move that turn, and they suffer penalties for firing weapons. It doesn't say that your selection is limited to what you've paid for and have sitting in reserves. That's why I asked if there is specific clarification on summoning in the rulebook. It makes no sense whatsoever for you to have to roll to see how high of a Power Rating you can summon if you've already paid for them in points. It would be a glorified deepstrike that is even more restrictive in terms of placement, runs the risk of killing your character, and nothing more.

Page 214 of the rulebook gives the rules for setting aside reinforcement points in matched play and explicitly points out daemon summoning as one of the types of reinforcements you would need to pay for. Probably not a good idea to debate rules unless you have read the rulebook yet.

I asked for verification for something I heard, and pointed out things I do know that make it confusing as gak. Not everyone has the full Rulebook yet. Thanks for actually answering my question.

I think I am going to have Aetaos, Magnus, Decimators, Changeling and other units to fill in the gaps (namely anything that can deal with hordes).

I was mathhammering Chaos Havocs, as I was interested in which loadout is most all around useful. Now, the short, average answer is Missile Launcher because it can be used to some effect against hordes and vehicles.

But the results are complicated. Also I find mathhammering 8th edition to be a lot more tedious process due to the Damage and AP being modifier.

Here are some of the results, everything is calculated as 4 heavy weapons shooting stationary. Moving and shooting will lessen the odds of course. Moving and shooting with re-roll 1s aura is ok actually. Shooting stationary with re-roll aura is excellent. Either unsaved wounds or unsaved Damage is given:

Unsaved wounds:

Against Hordes T3 Sv 5+:
H. Bolter 4.4
Autocannon 3.7
Missile Launcher Frag 4.1

Against Hordes T4 Sv 5+:
H. Bolter 4.4
Autocannon 3.0
Missile Launcher Frag 3.1

Unsaved Damage:

Against Vehicle T6 Sv 3+
Heavy Bolter 1.3
Autocannon 2.7
Missile Launcher Krak 4.1
Lascannon 5.2

Against Vehicle T7 Sv 3+
Heavy Bolter 1.3
Autocannon 2.7
Missile Launcher Krak 4.1 (Unsaved wounds 1.2)
Lascannon 5.2 (Unsaved Wounds 1.5)

Against Vehicle T8 Sv 3+
Heavy Bolter 1.3
Autocannon 1.8
Missile Launcher Krak 3.1 (Unsaved wounds 0.9)
Lascannon 5.2 (Unsaved wounds 1.5)

Then there are a lot of the intermediate multiwound Toughness but high Sv models, such as bikers on Astartes or windriders on Aeldari, which are most efficiently taken out by Autocannons, but not by far.

Unsaved Wounds
Against T4 Sv 3+ W2:
Heavy Bolter 2,7 (1 removed model, 2nd removal not very likely)
Autocannon 1,8 (1 removed model, 2nd removal quite likely)
Missile Launcher Krak 1,5 (1 removed model, possibility for 2, but you can also get very unlucky in damage and remove non)
Lascannon 1.8 (1 removed model, 2nd removal quite likely, but you can also get very unlucky in damage and remove non)

Also as of note:
Due to low amount of shooting weapons, frag grenade m. launcher will have 4x 1D6 shots which can net your shots from 4 to 24, averaging to 14.
Same repeats with Krak M. Launcher and Lascannon which both do 1D6 damage by single successful unsaved wound. Because of the low amount of average generated unsaved wounds, 4 lascannons can inflict even 12 D and more per turn, but this is very unlikely. The average is 5.2, but as this comes from very low amount of shots it can fluctuate easily from 0 to 12, with most likely values being within 1-6.

All in all, I would recommend using Missile Launchers as they are most multipurpose heavy weapon available. In case you play against pure horde army, autocannon is not optimal, and lascannon certainly is not optimal. Against many armored targets Lascannon is superb, but not superb enough compared to krak M. Launcher.

I've been looking at Renegade Ogryn Brutes to sit inside my Mutant Rabble blob and be a counter-assault slash primary assault unit. Because of their statline and their cost, they directly compete with Chaos Spawn for the same role but give up some defense for more offense. LET'S DIVE RIGHT IN!

Chaos Spawn: While expensive at 33 points per model, Chaos Spawn are one of the most powerful tools Chaos has access to. Spawn move slightly faster than a Marine (7 inches), are toughness 5, and have 4 wounds each. This makes Chaos Spawn one of the best bullet catchers for your HQ choice because the damn things won't go down easy. They aren't slouches in combat either: each unit of Spawn get D6 attacks and a roll on the Mutated Beyond Reason table, potentially giving those attacks AP-4, +2 attacks, or rerolling failed wounds. Their weapon is already AP-2 and 2 damage which makes them hit like trucks. They're whiff every so often due to WS4+, however. Mostly you want them to catch bullets and, if something gets close, soak up overwatch while being decent in close combat. Their variable attacks and mutation table makes them unreliable in melee and we have way better melee units anyways. Oh they also have leadership 9, so morale is pretty much ignored up to units of 4, but you generally don't need more than 4 as an escort regardless.

Renegade Ogryn Brutes: Must be taken in units of three, so base cost comes out to 93 points, or 31 points per model. 2 points cheaper per model than Spawn. They also have one less wound than spawn, move 1 inch less, and have base leadership 6. They come with Ogryn Weapons, which are +1S (putting them at 6) AP-1 and 2 damage. You can upgrade one Brute into a Berserker Boss for 10 points (cost of his weapon), which gives him +1W, +1A, and +1LD. He also gets the Ogryn Power Drill, a S10 AP-3 D3 damage weapon that rerolls wounds against vehicles. With these differences, it is clear that Chaos Spawn are a far hardier escort than Brutes, however there are several things that make it clear Brutes aren't meant for escort duty. First, Brutes get 3A, with the Boss getting 4A. Second, they have an ability called Avalanche of Muscle which adds +1A on the turn they charged. Finally, their last ability is Combat Stimms: roll a D6, on a 1 one Brute is dead, on a 2-5 the unit gains +1A, on a 6 they gain +D3 attacks. On average a unit of charging Brutes will have 5 attacks, with the Boss getting 6, for a total of 16 attacks. Three Chaos Spawn will average 10-11 attacks on the charge, with a chance for far less or far more. The final ingredient is Brute's WS3+, allowing them to hit far more often than Spawn in close combat. Oh, they also get Frag Grenades which is a nice little cherry on top.

The differences between thee two units clearly outlines their purposes: Renegade Ogryn Brutes are for when you need to counter-assault or have a more close combat focused army with multiple threats charging up towards your opponent, meanwhile Chaos Spawn are a more defensive, HQ focused unit meant to catch bullets and not really dish out damage. HOWEVER, and I haven't mathhammered this at all, but Chaos Spawn have a far greater damage potential than Brutes while Brutes will be far more consistent in their damage. Personally I love the Brute model and was digging into them to see if they were any good. As long as you have multiple threats, they have a pretty good chance of getting into combat and dishing out their average, which again is 16 attacks. For a three model unit this is pretty absurd. Bloodcrushers are the only other Khorne Chaos unit that dishes out close to that many attacks on the charge, at 13 attacks. Bloodcrushers will actually do far more damage than Brutes due to AP-3, but that's a discussion for another day.

 andysonic1 wrote:
As long as you have multiple threats, they have a pretty good chance of getting into combat and dishing out their average, which again is 16 attacks. For a three model unit this is pretty absurd. Bloodcrushers are the only other Khorne Chaos unit that dishes out close to that many attacks on the charge.

Except for Berzerkers which do twice as many attacks on the charge at S5-6 AP0--1.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
As long as you have multiple threats, they have a pretty good chance of getting into combat and dishing out their average, which again is 16 attacks. For a three model unit this is pretty absurd. Bloodcrushers are the only other Khorne Chaos unit that dishes out close to that many attacks on the charge.

Except for Berzerkers which do twice as many attacks on the charge at S5-6 AP0--1.

Yes yes, Berserkers are in a league of their own due to the new FAQ making them THE best CC unit Chaos has access to, I think at this point that is obvious enough that we can just auto include them and start looking at other units as well.

 andysonic1 wrote:
start looking at other units as well.

No! Only Zerkers! Zerker hordes everywhere! Blood for the blood God!

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
start looking at other units as well.

No! Only Zerkers! Zerker hordes everywhere! Blood for the blood God!

Somebody get the chains we got another one Zerking out over here!

 andysonic1 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
start looking at other units as well.

No! Only Zerkers! Zerker hordes everywhere! Blood for the blood God!

Somebody get the chains we got another one Zerking out over here!

Hey guys,


I really like the buff to Zerkers. Pity I don't own any yet :*(

Will soon be fixed!

Anyway...

So today.
I drank lots of Cider (yes) and attempted to add in re-rolling 1's and re-rolling all misses/wounds to my formulas.

I would appreciate if someone could check it over, otherwise it will wait until tomorrow when I am more capable.

Formula -

=if($O$2="Y",((1/6)*D11)+D11,if($O$5="Y",((((-1+F11)/6)*D11)+D11),D11))*((7-F11)/6)*if($O$3="Y",(((1/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),if($O$6="Y",((((-1+I11)/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),((7-I11)/6))) * L11 * C11

Reference : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit#gid=2084351568

Much appreciated!

Chris


Edit :

Sorry - meant to add.

Re-rolls only added to Abaddon's sheet!
No point rolling out unless its right

mcsheehy wrote:
Hey guys,


I really like the buff to Zerkers. Pity I don't own any yet :*(

Will soon be fixed!

Anyway...

So today.
I drank lots of Cider (yes) and attempted to add in re-rolling 1's and re-rolling all misses/wounds to my formulas.

I would appreciate if someone could check it over, otherwise it will wait until tomorrow when I am more capable.

Formula -

=if($O$2="Y",((1/6)*D11)+D11,if($O$5="Y",((((-1+F11)/6)*D11)+D11),D11))*((7-F11)/6)*if($O$3="Y",(((1/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),if($O$6="Y",((((-1+I11)/6)*((7-I11)/6))+((7-I11)/6)),((7-I11)/6))) * L11 * C11

Reference : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fIYAu1UgDyxMCrnHYUoIdviPottSyRSQGTSgmsNxHfs/edit#gid=2084351568

Much appreciated!

Chris

I would help you with the code their but I too have been at the cider (and a couple of pints of lager too). It looks long and complicated so that usually means it's fine.

Thanks Mrhappyface.

I've done some testing. With paper and a pen.
Through Beer/Cider goggles it looks A'OK!

Further testing will be done.

What models do people want to see added? Do you have a list Mrhappy?

Chris

Edit -

Re-rolls added to all existing sheets.

Just dawned on me...

Pts values gotta be removed :(

Well, that skews the efficiency :(

So boys and girls, what are our tools for dealing with knights? My short list includes:

Cereberus (but it looks dumb)
Leviathans
Kharybdis (see above)
Another knight/scorpion and hope you get luckier
Xiphons (maybe??)
Spartan (8 lascannon shots)


Doritos don't seem great for that role (better for popping transports). Laspreds and havocs are too 2 dimensional imo. Been staring at our indeces for the last two hours just pulling a blank.

Bring something bigger than a knight. Try Lord of skulls. I have tried it out. In 8th ed, its quite good. 28 wounds, T8, 5++ and it auto regens 1 wound each turn. The more hurt it gets, the more attacks it gets.

I had an imperial warden knight charge my Lord of skulls (who was already injured from shooting). The Warden got chopped to pieces.

This is if you refuse to try Predator Tanks or Havocs though. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with these two also.

Combimelta or plasma termis with a lord for plasma termis? Back them up with lascannons and maybe even throw some chainfists for maximum antiarmour punch?

Rapier with c beam can ne Nice aswell or contemptor with them if You ca ne at long range From the Knight 3d3 dommage each is reliable.

Aetaos'rau'keres: 74% chance of killing a knight in one turn of combat if it is at full wounds, but chances are you smited it and shot at it before you struck you engaged it, in which case, you would likely only have a 7% chance of not killing a knight in one turn.

Brass Scorpion, Lord of Skulls, Magnus or a Bloodthirster?

The Maths,
Brass scorpion: about 21 wounds
Lord of Skulls: about 13 wounds
Magnus: about 17 wounds.
Bloodthirster (with re-roll): about 14 wounds.
Bloodthirster (without re-roll): about 12 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
aetaos'rau'keres: 74% chance of killing a knight in one turn of combat if it is at full wounds.

Hows that?

And speaking of greater Daemons, An'ggrath: about 24 wounds. At least the Khorne Daemon Lord (on average) auto kills Knights.

Put in the relevant stats here: http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com
6 attacks at 16str, -4 ap, 6 dmg each. But you probably softened it up with smites and his 60" 2d6 assault, -4ap, 3dmg staff first. He also costs 700 pts though.

Yeah, killing a knight doesn't even make back Aetaos's points. I think that just shows he's costed correctly though, lol. A 700 point model that is fully worth taking in a 2000 point game, who'da thunk it.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Put in the relevant stats here: http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com
6 attacks at 16str, -4 ap, 6 dmg each. He also costs 700 pts though.

Ah, I missed the "change to D6 if targeting vehicles".