Anybody know much about AOS? I'm thinking about putting together some khorne daemons as allies for my black legion, I don't have the daemons codex but looking on battlescribe there's not really much to choose from for khorne.
Are most khorne daemons useable in AOS?
I like the idea of switching my lord to khorne. I wanted to keep the bolt pistol for the mortal wound strat, i have had my chaos lords get stuck in cc with an enemy who thought they were safe due to being so tough (charged by a rhino 1 game, last game i played he got charged by an ork battlewagon) and then watched as my lord started kicking the crap out of their vehicles with the d3 mw strat from the pistol and the 6's to wound causing mortal on top of the dmg from the hydra sword. For 72pts its hard to deny his potential.
I was looking for a way to make chaos marines useful, yes i agree havocs are easier to get what you want if you want 4 plasma guns. But if you just want 3 and you want bolter bodies / bolter marines as well for infantry shooting i think its a viable option. I do want to get some rhinos for them though. In my last game vs orks ( i won btw) it was large in part to 1 squad of these guys getting across the field and charged into a battlewagon. My opponent had other, stronger things he had to deal with so he couldn't get much over to them other than a squad of looters and a big mek on bike. I lost 2 marines a turn but we were fighting over an objective and i was the only one with ob spec units there, they got me 5 vp out of 3 turns, i was very happy with them.
CSMHQ are always fun in CC because I find in casual settings many people underestimate how much harder they hit than your average back field support unit. Especially the named ones like Ahriman.
barboggo wrote: CSMHQ are always fun in CC because I find in casual settings many people underestimate how much harder they hit than your average back field support unit. Especially the named ones like Ahriman.
Honestly, i am surprised by nothing anymore, at the start of 8th I had a match against a Eldar/DEldar index list at 500 pts with the 2+ invulnerable Archon against my R&H. Long Story short, my R&H commander proceeded to kick the living gak out of my opponents archon after that one got stuck in my militia. Fast forward a bit and i had a match against the same opponent, this time nearly excactly the same situation. (of course in a casual setting)
I learned that one never, ever should underestimate small HQ's with energy weapons.
Why people however insist that charging a Chaos lord is a smart idea is beyond me still, they are /were one of the most iconic melee HQ's there are and even when built around the support of a gunline, are devastating enough to gain back their cheap pricetag. Albeit i miss the option to throw them up on a juggernaut with a Daemonweapon
Why people however insist that charging a Chaos lord is a smart idea is beyond me still, they are /were one of the most iconic melee HQ's there are and even when built around the support of a gunline, are devastating enough to gain back their cheap pricetag. Albeit i miss the option to throw them up on a juggernaut with a Daemonweapon
Juggerlord's still in the Index, and you've got the Axe of Blind Fury.
barboggo wrote: CSMHQ are always fun in CC because I find in casual settings many people underestimate how much harder they hit than your average back field support unit. Especially the named ones like Ahriman.
Honestly, i am surprised by nothing anymore, at the start of 8th I had a match against a Eldar/DEldar index list at 500 pts with the 2+ invulnerable Archon against my R&H. Long Story short, my R&H commander proceeded to kick the living gak out of my opponents archon after that one got stuck in my militia.
Fast forward a bit and i had a match against the same opponent, this time nearly excactly the same situation.
(of course in a casual setting)
I learned that one never, ever should underestimate small HQ's with energy weapons.
Why people however insist that charging a Chaos lord is a smart idea is beyond me still, they are /were one of the most iconic melee HQ's there are and even when built around the support of a gunline, are devastating enough to gain back their cheap pricetag. Albeit i miss the option to throw them up on a juggernaut with a Daemonweapon
Yeah. Some of my favorite tabletop moments in 8th have been about HQ units doing way more work than my opponent expects.
Abaddon303 wrote: Or black mace gives you 4 S8 -2 2D attacks plus possible extra mortal wounds on top of your 3 s7 jugger attacks. Pretty nice.
And how long will that last?
No models no Rules allready cucked my R&H grenadier army, not to mention that the stop of the R&H line is terrible, on the other hand i went to the GW competitor and got myself some sweet models there, started even a Blog, anyways i kind of find that highly annoying from GW, and i can't fathom what Ork players feel torwards that rule.
Yeah. Some of my favorite tabletop moments in 8th have been about HQ units doing way more work than my opponent expects.
It will always be hillarious when a 29 pts charachter beats up a 90+ pts charachter he has no buisness beating up, ironically i did not even roll all that hot. (side note Covenant of Khorne and a Energy sword were necessary.)
Oof, based on the stuff read in here...Abbadon backed up by two BL Slaanesh Marked havoc squads with Lascannons sounds like a nasty backfield. Point, click, dead?
timetowaste85 wrote: Oof, based on the stuff read in here...Abbadon backed up by two BL Slaanesh Marked havoc squads with Lascannons sounds like a nasty backfield. Point, click, dead?
You may have just hit upon the most powerful matchup in 8th edtion 40k.
barboggo wrote: CSMHQ are always fun in CC because I find in casual settings many people underestimate how much harder they hit than your average back field support unit. Especially the named ones like Ahriman.
I was playing against my buddy and he flew over Ahriman and charged into my Defiler... my thoughts on the matter was basically, "oh, okay, are you sure?" My buddy assured me that Ahriman was pretty beastly and he would be okay. Well Ahriman didn't roll quite as well as he had hoped and Ahriman was not okay.
Nizrah wrote: New hammerman + 3 rough psykers for 190 pts? Seems super nasty for black legion players! Can't wait to test this.
Few things:
-Everything in the box is capped at what's in the box. So you can only take 2 psykers.
-The psykers (and everything else except the renegade guardmen) have a "special" rule that makes them not take up elite slots, so you can't fill out cheapo detachments with them.
You could take hammerman and his two psyker pals in a regular BL detachment though. Not sure if the psykers can actually cast anything other than smite though (but they peril on any doubles, and I think add 1 to psy tests)
Hammerman has no special rules. He's just a stock lord with a plaspistol and thunderhammer.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Welp that's kinda lame. Does it at least make it an option for generic Lords to take then? There's now a model after all!
NOPE, because we are csm we don't get old stuff or some vehicles like jetbikes, just as we do not get thunderhammers.
Mind you if it were a new autocannon we would get it but probably restricted to specific units. ( Just like the hades autocannon , btw still wanting a pred with dual hades autocannons)
I guess there's nothing stopping you converting your own hammer lord, but he'd have to be a lord and he'd have to also carry a plasma pistol then you can just run him using the same data sheet
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you run black legion of course
Yeah, Never under estimate chaos lords. All they need is a power weapon and they can be deadly. I remember my world eaters chaos lord charging into sisters unit. He had a murder sword (which is basically a glorified power weapon).
After I rolled to hit, and rerolled any ones, came up with two sixes, which triggered death to the false emperor. And then world eaters trait gave me another one extra attack.
He went from four base attacks to seven attacks that all hit! Very fierce! Needless to say, the sisters unit was wiped out.
In fact, I am thinking of having two Chaos Lords on jump pack for my World Eaters. So, they will function like the equivalent of cheap smash captains. I put axe of blinding fury on one and black mace on the other. So, one will do d3 dmg while another will do a flat 2 dmg on a hit. Its not as good as the flat 3 dmg of a thunderhammer, but its still decent, with the two artifacts, both will hit at str 7, and consider that I hit on 2s, plus have the opportunity to trigger Death to the false emperor and world eaters adds another +1 attack, they will be pretty nasty even on a basic charge. And this is not even considering using veterans of the long war, or fury of khorne strategem. And they are cheaper than a smash captain, and a lot cheaper than a flying Daemon Prince as well.
The thing is, world eaters need shooting. They are glass cannons. They can absolutely wreck face if they get to charge into the nasties but they need the chaff cleared away because if all you have are melee units, its a no brainer for the opponent to focus fire them down, and throw chaff and blockers in their way. So, you need shooting that can clear away the chaff.
Some of that is why the Blade of the Hydra is one of the best relics in the entire game; it turns a Chaos Lord into a murder machine, and it's a free upgrade. I like to run a Lord with a Jump Pack and give him that weapon, and he usually puts in good work. Mark him Khorne and you can potentially use the 3CP fight again strat for even more carnage.
Not Online!!! wrote: Why people however insist that charging a Chaos lord is a smart idea is beyond me still, they are /were one of the most iconic melee HQ's there are and even when built around the support of a gunline, are devastating enough to gain back their cheap pricetag.
Shooting has been significantly stronger then melee for so long in 40K's lifespan that there's an astounding number of people who have very little understanding of how it works.
If you removed shooting from the game entirely and had just melee units, there would be as much of a meta in all-melee 40K as there is in the base game, due to just how much depth there is in this game's melee combat that not alot of people are aware of.
Abaddon303 wrote: Anybody know much about AOS? I'm thinking about putting together some khorne daemons as allies for my black legion, I don't have the daemons codex but looking on battlescribe there's not really much to choose from for khorne.
Are most khorne daemons useable in AOS?
Age of Sigmar is awesome! Khorne Daemons are plenty good in that game, you'll probably want at least 30 Bloodletters minimum, though 90 is better for Sigmar; in 40k you could deepstrike the 30 Bloodletters and have them charging 3D6" with that artefact banner I think. Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury and the Insensate Rage One are both very good as well, though in 40k they often get shot to pieces, but a good distraction unit that if it gets in there can wreck face. Frankly either game can have that problem, but Sigmar not nearly as much of a shooting game most of the time. Skull Cannons surprisingly also good! Plastic Fleshhounds are on their way and can be super useful in both games.
With 40k we have the detachment system. In AoS there are Warscroll Battalions. Building one of those for Khorne Daemons will net you a 40k detachment of some sort most of the time, or close to it. So it's actually a cost effective way to buy models, lucky for Daemons! Tzaangor armies are also a good way to get both games if you like the Tzeentchy vibe too, and Mutalith monsters too. And Spawn and Gigantic Spawn!
Nizrah wrote: New hammerman + 3 rough psykers for 190 pts? Seems super nasty for black legion players! Can't wait to test this.
Few things:
-Everything in the box is capped at what's in the box. So you can only take 2 psykers.
-The psykers (and everything else except the renegade guardmen) have a "special" rule that makes them not take up elite slots, so you can't fill out cheapo detachments with them.
You could take hammerman and his two psyker pals in a regular BL detachment though. Not sure if the psykers can actually cast anything other than smite though (but they peril on any doubles, and I think add 1 to psy tests)
Hammerman has no special rules. He's just a stock lord with a plaspistol and thunderhammer.
Wait, is this rules lawyer compliant? ‘Does not take up a slot’ is not the same as ‘does not break Legion purity or Battleforged criteria’. If they’re not in their special formation, do they have any keywords in common with BLACL LEGION - HERETIC ASTARTES - <DEITY>? Do they keep you from activating your Legion trait? Do they stop you from unlocking CSM Stratagems?
lindsay40k wrote: Wait, is this rules lawyer compliant? ‘Does not take up a slot’ is not the same as ‘does not break Legion purity or Battleforged criteria’. If they’re not in their special formation, do they have any keywords in common with BLACL LEGION - HERETIC ASTARTES - <DEITY>? Do they keep you from activating your Legion trait? Do they stop you from unlocking CSM Stratagems?
It's spelled out in the data sheets.
For the Black Legionnaires, they can only appear in a detachment featuring Obsidius Mallex. He has the Black Legion keyword and so do they. Therefore, the normal rules around Legion traits apply.
For the Rogue Psykers, Negavolt Cultists, Traitor Cultists, and Beastmen, their faction keywords are CHAOS and SERVANTS OF THE ABYSS. That means they can only appear in a SERVANTS OF THE ABYSS detachment. They also have Slaves to Mallex special rule, which means they don't take up slots in a detachment featuring OM in a battleforged army.
Obsidius Mallex does not have Slaves to Mallex. He can only appear in a Black Legion detachment because you can't use Chaos as a Faction keyword. These units would normally not be able to join a Black Legion detachment as part of a Battleforged army because they lack the proper keyword.
What's important here, and what answers the question, is the word BATTLEFORGED. They can actually only join a BATTLEFORGED Black Legion detachment featuring OM because they don't have the proper keywords to join anything else. That strongly implies 'not taking up slots' means 'not affecting battleforged status,' since the rules prevent them from joining a detachment that's not battleforged.
The only other way to use them would be to start a Renegade Chapter with Servants of the Abyss to replace the <LEGION> keyword. But the only reason to do that is to use these units, which would be silly.
I plan on getting the blackstone fortress game, i think the models look cool personally. And even if you didnt want to run those guys as their data sheets many of them will work fine as a dtand in. Really, whats the difference between traitor guardsmen and cultists on the table? I know lots of people that use guard as cultits, little kitbashing and your done.
Though i would love an actual traitor guard codex. We got castodies out of no where at the beginning of the year, one can hope for next year.....
The only other way to use them would be to start a Renegade Chapter with Servants of the Abyss to replace the <LEGION> keyword. But the only reason to do that is to use these units, which would be silly.
Except you can't create a LEGION using a pre existing faction keyword.
The only other way to use them would be to start a Renegade Chapter with Servants of the Abyss to replace the <LEGION> keyword. But the only reason to do that is to use these units, which would be silly.
Except you can't create a LEGION using a pre existing faction keyword.
Yeah, I was being generous to narrative players. That would not fly in matched play.
First off the list is illegal since you only can have 2 Rogue psykers, secondly they can't fill slots since hammerman is there. (slaves rule).
So technically he still has all elites free.
First off the list is illegal since you only can have 2 Rogue psykers, secondly they can't fill slots since hammerman is there. (slaves rule).
So technically he still has all elites free.
Where is this stated thats i can only take two? I listed them as elites to easier recognition
First off the list is illegal since you only can have 2 Rogue psykers, secondly they can't fill slots since hammerman is there. (slaves rule).
So technically he still has all elites free.
Where is this stated thats i can only take two? I listed them as elites to easier recognition
Edit: First off in the upper part it clearly states an army can not field more then TWO and further down is the " slaves to malleus " rule which makes them non-slotfilling period.
And the questionable restrictions are not just for Rogue psykers but also for all other units including traitor guards etc.
Nature's Minister wrote: So, in gw's continuing effort to remove anything remotely competitive from the chaos space marine codex, cultists are 5ppm now.
Eh, at this point its just rumors. But on the flip side those same rumors point to a pretty significant point reduction for Marine models. 5 point guardsmen and 5 point cultists alongside a general buff to MEQ bodies may lead to Imperial and Chaos armies actually taking some space marine bodies. Maybe.... probably not.
Nature's Minister wrote: So, in gw's continuing effort to remove anything remotely competitive from the chaos space marine codex, cultists are 5ppm now.
Eh, at this point its just rumors. But on the flip side those same rumors point to a pretty significant point reduction for Marine models. 5 point guardsmen and 5 point cultists alongside a general buff to MEQ bodies may lead to Imperial and Chaos armies actually taking some space marine bodies. Maybe.... probably not.
Mate, r&h still exist and I doubt they will pricehike them, granted they are bad enough to be 4ppm (ld is d6+2 f.e
Worse armor and bs /ws) but we still mostlikely will have a cheap battalion.
Nature's Minister wrote: So, in gw's continuing effort to remove anything remotely competitive from the chaos space marine codex, cultists are 5ppm now.
Eh, at this point its just rumors. But on the flip side those same rumors point to a pretty significant point reduction for Marine models. 5 point guardsmen and 5 point cultists alongside a general buff to MEQ bodies may lead to Imperial and Chaos armies actually taking some space marine bodies. Maybe.... probably not.
There is no rumor of marine price changes, just wild guesses and wishlisting at this point.
And honestly, I hope not. horde marines should NOT be a thing.
Nature's Minister wrote: So, in gw's continuing effort to remove anything remotely competitive from the chaos space marine codex, cultists are 5ppm now.
Eh, at this point its just rumors. But on the flip side those same rumors point to a pretty significant point reduction for Marine models. 5 point guardsmen and 5 point cultists alongside a general buff to MEQ bodies may lead to Imperial and Chaos armies actually taking some space marine bodies. Maybe.... probably not.
They're not a model worth 5 points though. Even with the amount of Strategems (I still maintain that Tide Of Traitors isn't broken and was unnecessarily hit).
Primortus wrote: If cultists go to 5 ppm then Infantry deserve to be 6 ppm, they're better in almost every way.
Not entirely. They can't be taken in 40-strong units, don't have access to Veterans of the Long War or Tide of Traitors, don't have the same character aura support (like Abaddon making them fearless and possibly full rerolls to hit) and don't have as good of psychic support. They do however have things like orders, which can't be ignored. To me, Cultists and Guardsmen are pretty close in terms of power, when you consider things other than just their statline and their own special rules.
I'm fine with a points increase, as long as other chaff infantry go up as well. We already saw Ork Boyz go up, so it's possible that Kabalites and Fire Warriors will also get an increase if Cultists and Guardsmen do. Maybe even Tyranid gaunts will catch that nerf bat as well.
Other books have other competitive units, tho. Csm has cultists, obliterators... kind of? and daemon princes, but the worst daemon princes of any book. Berserkers aren't that good post alpha legion nerf.
Primortus wrote: If cultists go to 5 ppm then Infantry deserve to be 6 ppm, they're better in almost every way.
Not entirely. They can't be taken in 40-strong units, don't have access to Veterans of the Long War or Tide of Traitors, don't have the same character aura support (like Abaddon making them fearless and possibly full rerolls to hit) and don't have as good of psychic support. They do however have things like orders, which can't be ignored. To me, Cultists and Guardsmen are pretty close in terms of power, when you consider things other than just their statline and their own special rules.
I'm fine with a points increase, as long as other chaff infantry go up as well. We already saw Ork Boyz go up, so it's possible that Kabalites and Fire Warriors will also get an increase if Cultists and Guardsmen do. Maybe even Tyranid gaunts will catch that nerf bat as well.
Because I'm going to use VotLW on Cultists? Please. Also Tide of Traitors was never broken.
5 points is laughable for Cultists. They aren't a 5 point model. If you're pricing them like they have their Strategems active all the time, they're not priced correctly.
Also the whole "you have the option to take them at higher squad sizes" is exactly the stupid logic GW used to price Conscripts at 4 points.
Pricing Cultists on the assumption there’s forty of them getting recycled and buffed by strats & powers would seriously dunk the viability of the two squads of ten sitting on objectives and avoiding eye contact
Not being BL, five CSMs with a lascannon don’t particularly grab me as an alternative
Have you run any numbers on VotLW/Cacophony/RR-aura/Prescience Cultists?
Feel free to go ahead and do so.
In the absence of changing the min/max squad sizes, they are absolutely still worth using at 5pts per, and likely still better than most of the other available troops choices for CSM.
Yeah, i have just gotten into using abaddon and 40 slaanesh cultists with a sorcerer.
80 shots when in double tap, 5+++ for cultists, rerolling failed hits, vets of long war, normally does on average 10 wounds on a 3+ armor target (thats 10 wounds not saved, they do 25-30 wounds). Then fire again, goodbuy whatever you dont like.
Only problem is people realise how strong cultists are when they have access to cp so target them quickly. I normally only get about 45-55 shots with a squad due to losses and range, but still. They are stupid effective thanks to the current game system.
Have you run any numbers on VotLW/Cacophony/RR-aura/Prescience Cultists?
Feel free to go ahead and do so.
In the absence of changing the min/max squad sizes, they are absolutely still worth using at 5pts per, and likely still better than most of the other available troops choices for CSM.
You mean Codex Cultists (and maybee) some Space Marines. Still an unnesscary nerf, just as 5 pts IG are when the real problem lies with the CP generation and the fact that SM don't do that in any meaningfull way.
80 shots when in double tap, 5+++ for cultists, rerolling failed hits, vets of long war, normally does on average 10 wounds on a 3+ armor target (thats 10 wounds not saved, they do 25-30 wounds). Then fire again, goodbuy whatever you dont like.
Think bigger :p
40 man squad, re-rolling 1's, with VotLW, Prescience, and Cacophony active:
You'll put about 15 wounds onto a Knight if you can get all 40 in Rapid Fire range.
You'll almost kill 2 ravagers (19.7 wounds after FNP), or almost kill 3 Raiders through FNP. You'd also pop 4 Venoms and then some, again through FNP.
You'd kill 15 Plaguebearers if they don't have -1 to hit from being above 20 models. 13 if they have -1 (due to unit size or miasma). 9.8 if they have -2 to hit.
If anyone was stupid enough to put Terms on the table, you kill 5.9 through their 2+ saves.
You'll kill 1.5 Daemon Princes if you can somehow line them up for shots, though that's admittedly quite difficult.
Admittedly, getting them into range at full strength is half the problem.
If you want to be cheeky, you could make them Alpha Legion for that 9" Forward Operatives move, +6" from normal move, +6" from Warptime. You could also just T1 Tide them if your opponent provided you the opportunity.
For 160 pts (plus support resources, if you want to factor that in).
So, even making that 160pt squad 200 points, it's one of the best point to wound ratios CSM have available, even if you assume any other unit you compare it to has the same buffs. Oblits are obviously better dedicated AV, and adding cover obviously drops the numbers down in most cases, but it's not like you have to sink all that support onto cultists. The fact that you can is enough to give a competant opponent pause.
You mean Codex Cultists (and maybee) some Space Marines. Still an unnesscary nerf, just as 5 pts IG are when the real problem lies with the CP generation and the fact that SM don't do that in any meaningfull way.
It's not unnecessary by any means. They can't feasibly change unit stats/rules in Chapter Approved because the page real-estate to do so would be extreme. That only leaves them tweaking points. Cultists are too good at 4 points. Period. The only thing they could do is make them cost more (at least, until they start revising codices, at which point they can revisit the statline and/or min/max unit sizes).
Anyone who didn't see a Cultist nerf on the cards wasn't paying close enough attention to their capabilities.
To be fair its not like we are dominating tournaments. If they bump cultists up to 5pts and drop marines by 1 or, hopefully, 2, i would not be upset. It would increase my current list by a few points but nothing drastic.
Marines and terminators need help. They need a price drop.
Bolters need help too. They used to ignore 5+ and 6+ saves that cultists and guards have. Even if they changed it to wound rolls of 6 were at ap-1 that could help them get back a bit of what they had. :( if anything thats the biggest tragedy of 8th edition, the fact that bolters are jokes compared to what everyone else gets.
Have you run any numbers on VotLW/Cacophony/RR-aura/Prescience Cultists?
Feel free to go ahead and do so.
In the absence of changing the min/max squad sizes, they are absolutely still worth using at 5pts per, and likely still better than most of the other available troops choices for CSM.
And that's a lot of support when I can use that on something else. I shouldn't have to spend that many points and use that much support for 1 unit. Yeah it's cute when it goes off, but how often does it actually happen?
The answer is not a lot. I'm not scared of that scenario using any army, and you shouldn't be either.
Ap0k wrote: What else are you going to use it on that's that versatile and capable of that much damage?
Oblits are about the only unit that comes close at a similar points level, and that's a dedicated AV unit.
The logic here being that because the cultists are the only units worth supporting in our codex they should be nerfed? I'm skeptical its warrented because from what I can tell there are many other more point efficient units in armies that actually have competitive codexes. That being said the cultist support network list can do a large amount of damage 1 or two times assuming your oppenent let the whole squad get in rapid fire range of your 6" move cultists and fails to wipe them on the backswing so you can tide of traitors. Also hopefully they don't have any psykers to deny your powers, go first against you, or play agents of vect at all. But if all that is true, sure cultists are capable of great things. But the amount of ifs and investment seema reasonable to me.
Yeah, nerfing cultists is a bit extreme when they're honestly the only top tier option in the book. Where is csm competitive viability going to come from now?
Unless the entire dark eldar codex gets a price hike, orcs get another price hike, etc.
I can see you guys are determined to be the victim here, so I'm gonna take a hard pass on talking in circles.
If you didn't see a Cultist nerf coming, and you can't fathom why an obviously overperforming unit would get nerfed, irrespective of the rest of the codex (which is, for the most part, trash, but that doesn't mean you just let the ridiculous units stay ridiculous), there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, you're speculating on part of a rumour, while conveniently ignoring the fact the another part of the rumour suggested 5-10% points reductions for unspecified 'Space Marines'.
At a ten percent reduction, space marines are still trash. At 9 points, they'd be good. At ten, they'd be reasonably ok. At 11 or 12, they still have the same problems. Bolters are still bolters, and without weight of fire, they're terrible.
I think having one ridiculous unit in an otherwise trash codex is fair. Cultists aren't dominating like knights and guard, or eldar soup, so I'm not even really willing to concede they are ridiculous.
No one wants to play morale immune cultists spam, it's just literally the only viable strategy in the codex, and now it's 20% less effective.
I completely agree that a 10% reduction wouldn't be enough to bring most marine units up to par.
We don't know the extent of the nerfs on other factions yet, nor do we know the extent of the buffs on marines, so it's a bit early to be complaining about how the sky is falling.
We also don't know if CA will bring any changes to how many CP's detachments provide, whether there will be any benefits to playing mono-faction or penalties for playing soup, any restrictions placed on how CP can be spent, or any number of core-rules based changes that can affect how the game is played.
Ap0k wrote: I can see you guys are determined to be the victim here, so I'm gonna take a hard pass on talking in circles.
If you didn't see a Cultist nerf coming, and you can't fathom why an obviously overperforming unit would get nerfed, irrespective of the rest of the codex (which is, for the most part, trash, but that doesn't mean you just let the ridiculous units stay ridiculous), there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, you're speculating on part of a rumour, while conveniently ignoring the fact the another part of the rumour suggested 5-10% points reductions for unspecified 'Space Marines'.
I absolutely saw it coming. It doesn't mean I agree with it. The point here isn't that you are wrong. Far from it. I believe that cultists are overperforming. I also think you could fix it without point adjustments and not significantly increase the page real estate by removing the heritic astartes keyword from cultists.
To your point of not kust leaving ridiculous units alone I also agree. My point is unless they are also adusting more fundementally imbalanced units(which they might) I would think cultists would be down on the list.
As for being the victim. I mean by definition anyone who used cultists would be, but ill go ahead and assume you are using the word derogitorily with the idea being that we are unjustly complaining. To that point you could very well be right as well. We will have to see what the Chapter Approved actually looks like before we can judge in full.
If history is any indication, they will break the list and leave no alternative. Every competitive list chaos has had, like malefic lords, null deploy obliterator spam, etc has been gutted leaving us where we are right now, and likely this, too, is gone.
Do Daemon Princes taken in a CSM detachment have the "Daemon of X" rules from the Daemon codex? I.E. would a CSM Daemon Prince with Nurgle allegiance get the Disgustingly Resilient rule from the Daemon codex?
BlaxicanX wrote: Do Daemon Princes taken in a CSM detachment have the "Daemon of X" rules from the Daemon codex? I.E. would a CSM Daemon Prince with Nurgle allegiance get the Disgustingly Resilient rule from the Daemon codex?
Afraid not. Just another reason why CSM princes are inferior to every other available Daemon Prince.
Ap0k wrote: I can see you guys are determined to be the victim here, so I'm gonna take a hard pass on talking in circles.
If you didn't see a Cultist nerf coming, and you can't fathom why an obviously overperforming unit would get nerfed, irrespective of the rest of the codex (which is, for the most part, trash, but that doesn't mean you just let the ridiculous units stay ridiculous), there's nothing I can say that will change your mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Furthermore, you're speculating on part of a rumour, while conveniently ignoring the fact the another part of the rumour suggested 5-10% points reductions for unspecified 'Space Marines'.
I absolutely saw it coming. It doesn't mean I agree with it. The point here isn't that you are wrong. Far from it. I believe that cultists are overperforming. I also think you could fix it without point adjustments and not significantly increase the page real estate by removing the heritic astartes keyword from cultists.
To your point of not kust leaving ridiculous units alone I also agree. My point is unless they are also adusting more fundementally imbalanced units(which they might) I would think cultists would be down on the list.
As for being the victim. I mean by definition anyone who used cultists would be, but ill go ahead and assume you are using the word derogitorily with the idea being that we are unjustly complaining. To that point you could very well be right as well. We will have to see what the Chapter Approved actually looks like before we can judge in full.
Cultists are "good", but not OP in any form anymore; they're been slowly weeded out. As well, with the upcoming nerf to Alpha Legion (again), they will see even LESS use, because they die in droves to anything decent. They need to be within 12" to achieve the best results, and be slanesh, AND it costs CP to keep them running (2 if you VOTLW and shoot again, 3 more if you bring them back). 4 pts is fine for a unit with a 6+, T3, that requires a lot of CP to do anything good. Not to mention you need Abaddon, or run them as Iron Warriors to circumvent the morale weakness. If you plan to use any amount of cultists to do work, it requires a lot, and a list built around them.
Compare this to the 4 pt guardsman, who on top of having a much better stat line, can create an extremely points efficient battalion and still do a bit of work... I just dont see why they're costing up cultists unless they do the same to guardsmen. Especially when you see that its an extra 40 points for a full cultist squad, so if you are planning around them now you are losing 120 points of your list (assuming 3 max squads).
I've never been a huge proponent of cultist spam, they are good, but not crazy when you look at all the things it takes to make them work. They are like the chaos version of smash captains, except they can't guarentee a kill on some of the bigger stuff. As it stands I'd probably want to take 30 horrors over 40 cultists for the points if the nerf is true; they do basically the same job, and horrors are less CP hungry (and much harder to kill)
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Nature's Minister wrote: Yeah, nerfing cultists is a bit extreme when they're honestly the only top tier option in the book. Where is csm competitive viability going to come from now?
Unless the entire dark eldar codex gets a price hike, orcs get another price hike, etc.
Basic CSM dex is in a hard spot; 1k sons has access to the best spells, but has (arguably) better options. CSM, however, still has noise marines, havoks, and obliterators, and some of the better relics
Nature's Minister wrote: Can you find me a high placing tournament list that uses any of those three units from the last like eight or ten months?
Assuming everything else stays the same, Thousand Sons / daemons is how I'll go, completely excising csm from my list. Very sad.
Rumor has it 1k sons is getting a Smite nerf of some sort (and GK getting a buff). Probably wait and see... I mean it sucks if so, 1k sons is a psychic army, it would be lame if they stripped its identity; but smite is pretty powerful. They just need to rework the damn spell already and make it a shooting attack or something.
As long as Thousand Sons can threaten charges on the first turn with DMCed tzaangor blobs and warp timed stuff, they'll be ok. Probably just want people to attempt crappy spells like tzeentch's firestorm
I don't mind cultists going to 5pts so long as they balance the rest of the codex internally and externally. I'm not a massively competitive player but there are too many units I feel are beyond uncompetitive and it makes list building very bland if you're restricted to such few options.
Marines, terminators, land raiders and melta are too expensive, but hopefully that is addressed as a game wide adjustment.
All the daemon engines should at the very least be ws/bs 3+ and they'd still not be good enough for their points. That would give the maulerfiend the exact same base stats as a warglaive but still be more expensive and have a shorter range weapon!
The helldrake needs more attacks or 2d6 on the flamer do it's not completely pointless.
There's no situation where you'd take possessed over berserkers.
Warp talons need something so that their ignore overwatch rule is actually useable and mutilators need something so that they're not completely horrible.
It also frustrates me that CSM don't get equivalents of the lower tier elite slot characters like loyalist champions/ancients/apothecaries. I feel chaos marine armies should have more characterful individuals in their armies rather than the rank and file and it is difficult to fit more than a handful of hqs.
Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.
the.cobb wrote: Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.
the.cobb wrote: Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.
What does this even mean
It means that some things that should not have been forgotten were lost.
the.cobb wrote: Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.
What does this even mean
I think that's his way of saying he doesn't care about CA, I wonder why he bothered to interject with it but meh, to each their own.
How are Night Lords in the Leadership De-buffing department compared to what the Aeldaris can do?
I think I read on BoLS about a combo of Drukari, Harlequins, and Hemlocks that can put units at like -10 Ld and up to -15 if they get spells and relics working together.
I currently have Iron Warriors, but always loved the Nightlords' look. Wondering what kinda tricks they can pull.
Thinking about the Adepticon 2019 40k Championships. I was gonna do the Gallant (Gentleman's GT) but almost everything sold out less than 2 hours after registration opened. So with 8 slots left I decided to do the big one. I lost 11, yes, 11 games in a row at 3 tournaments a few years back with my old Sons of Malice so my CSMs are looking for revenge.
I'm hoping Dreadclaws and Obliterators don't get more expensive, need those in there I think. Maybe Mutilators will get a change with more attacks, or doing mortal wounds on 6s to hit or something. That new upcoming kit will need selling!
BlaxicanX wrote: Do Daemon Princes taken in a CSM detachment have the "Daemon of X" rules from the Daemon codex? I.E. would a CSM Daemon Prince with Nurgle allegiance get the Disgustingly Resilient rule from the Daemon codex?
As already answered, the answer is no sadly.
If you want to take a Daemon Prince in a generic CSM list, at bare minimum take him in a Patrol detachment from DG/TS/Daemons codex so he gets the full daemon keyword benefits.
So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.
However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?
In my experience with the Defiler in 8th, you REALLY dont want to stack your buffs on it. Spending 1 CP on rerolling its hits and wounds is more than enough, and it will not be dealing enough damage in melee to warrant Warptime. Focus your buffs on damage dealers, a Defiler is best used as a backline gunner, or as a distraction in melee. But truth be told, I believe a Maulerfiend is better for melee distracting anyways.
I know it sounds lame, but go ranged for your defiler. I run mine as a Havoc/Duel Lascannon, and it works wonders.
At what price point would daemon engines be usable? 100 points for a forgefiend? 120 or 130 for a defiler? I really want to like them but it is difficult to make them work.
Their price point is fine, they are just unfortunatly priced around an ABSOLUTELY ridiculous stratagem. If you pump CP into a Daemon Engine, it can dish out far more damage than any of its tank or helbrute counterparts. The only two i'd say that are strictly overcosted are the Heldrake, and the Defiler. The Forgefiend, Lord of Skulls, Maulerfiend and the Forgeworld models are all fairly priced, if you take into account that 1 CP reroll everything strat.
I don't think I've seen a forgefiend once all of 8th edition, except when I played it before codex csm was released. That speaks of being obscenely overcosted for what it brings, even with the stratagem.
Could the "5pt Cultist" be a reference to the pricing of Chaos Autoguns at 1pt per model instead of 0pts per model? In the last edition, I modelled up one unit of Cultists with pistols and one unit with autoguns because I loathed the idea of paying a whole point for the autogun. If GW has identified that the problem is 40-strong units with autoguns using stratagems, perhaps putting a price on their weapon upgrade is what they're going for? If so I'll just continue using my pistol chaps as screen units and objective holders (because let's be honest, if something moves within 24" of 10 Cultists with Autoguns it's not really worried about them) and shelve the autogun fellas.
I'd be a lot happier if the autogun cultists were replaced with proper renegade guardsmen myself, given that's what mine are mostly modelled as.
All the Daemon engines need help, including the maulerfiend. Both the maulerfiend and the warglaive are 12wounds T7 S6 3+ 5+inv. They both have 4 attacks Sx2 -3AP 3D. But the warglaive moves 2" quicker, hits on 3+ rather than 4+ and it has a 30" meltagun. AND we pay 22 points extra for the mauler...
Giving the maulerfiend tendrils helps it but not enough
Zid wrote: So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.
However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?
Defilers aren't the worst of the bunch and aren't to bad on the price (notice the large amount of qualifiers in that sentence). A defiler with reaper and scourge is only 167 points which isn't bad for 14 T7 wounds with a demon save. They are true distraction carinfexes as their real strength is in CC. I treat the guns and nice to haves but nothing more and rush them at an enemy line. Tank heavy armies are the best targets as they can bad touch and tie up a lot with their model size. Anecdotally, people surprisingly focus fire on them for some reason which serves me just fine as it less guns on my better models.
Yea I run mine with twin heavy bolters at 169 and just stick him in the front of my lines. I actually screen my cultists with him, who in turn screen my gunline. So many people dump everything into the guy turn 1 and he usually survives, especially if I go first and cast a buff on him and pop smoke. I just rush center field with him and block them as long as possible. I actually think defilers are fine, maulers aren't bad either if you use an exalted champion and apostle they basically all get demon forge all the time. The one that truly sucks ass is the forge fiend, his price point is utterly absurd lol.
If you’re Warptiming a Defiler or Mauler, then there’s things to be said for a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh. If your opponent’s obliged with their deployment, 2D6 extra movement is a first turn charge. Whole bunch of other stuff can work in a list with them. 0+ save Oblits, Possessed, ect
I love my Defiler. He has quickly become my armies mascot. I run him at 169 points with the Reaper Auto Cannons, Combi Bolter and a Power Scourge. At some point I may swap the Reaper for the Heavy Bolters for 2 more points, but I kind of like the way the Reapers look.
The best part about him is that his whole point is to die. He wants to bait the enemy firepower into trying to kill him, ideally while he has defense buffs up. Every shot he survives is another turn for my other units to keep fighting and doing what they do. 14 wounds and a 3+/5++ is actually very durable for ~170 points. And his melee profile demands attention... even when he is on death's door due to the fact that his WS doesn't degrade and he gets a flat 3 attacks from the Scourge.
akaean wrote: I love my Defiler. He has quickly become my armies mascot.
I run him at 169 points with the Reaper Auto Cannons, Combi Bolter and a Power Scourge. At some point I may swap the Reaper for the Heavy Bolters for 2 more points, but I kind of like the way the Reapers look.
The best part about him is that his whole point is to die. He wants to bait the enemy firepower into trying to kill him, ideally while he has defense buffs up. Every shot he survives is another turn for my other units to keep fighting and doing what they do. 14 wounds and a 3+/5++ is actually very durable for ~170 points. And his melee profile demands attention... even when he is on death's door due to the fact that his WS doesn't degrade and he gets a flat 3 attacks from the Scourge.
Decent points all around. Do you run him in Vanilla chaos or one of the other codices?
Zid wrote: So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.
However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?
Defilers aren't the worst of the bunch and aren't to bad on the price (notice the large amount of qualifiers in that sentence). A defiler with reaper and scourge is only 167 points which isn't bad for 14 T7 wounds with a demon save. They are true distraction carinfexes as their real strength is in CC. I treat the guns and nice to haves but nothing more and rush them at an enemy line. Tank heavy armies are the best targets as they can bad touch and tie up a lot with their model size. Anecdotally, people surprisingly focus fire on them for some reason which serves me just fine as it less guns on my better models.
You know me, I like to run what I feel is da-bestest killiest Chaos stuff
That said, 169 points to distract isn't TOO bad... but when you put them against a PBC, or Oblits, or Havoks, they feel...flat. I like the idea, what faction do you run them as?
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lindsay40k wrote: If you’re Warptiming a Defiler or Mauler, then there’s things to be said for a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh. If your opponent’s obliged with their deployment, 2D6 extra movement is a first turn charge. Whole bunch of other stuff can work in a list with them. 0+ save Oblits, Possessed, ect
Thats not a bad idea, doing a DG list and slingshotting them with a Gnarlmaw. My only issue here is that 1k sons boost the defilers staying power, while nurgle supports its killiness (spells and buffs) outside of miasma. I already feel like I'm gimping myself taking two, its just how to best make them work... I feel like if they had the Helbrute keyword they would actually be very usable, especially in Death Guard armies.
akaean wrote: I love my Defiler. He has quickly become my armies mascot.
I run him at 169 points with the Reaper Auto Cannons, Combi Bolter and a Power Scourge. At some point I may swap the Reaper for the Heavy Bolters for 2 more points, but I kind of like the way the Reapers look.
The best part about him is that his whole point is to die. He wants to bait the enemy firepower into trying to kill him, ideally while he has defense buffs up. Every shot he survives is another turn for my other units to keep fighting and doing what they do. 14 wounds and a 3+/5++ is actually very durable for ~170 points. And his melee profile demands attention... even when he is on death's door due to the fact that his WS doesn't degrade and he gets a flat 3 attacks from the Scourge.
Decent points all around. Do you run him in Vanilla chaos or one of the other codices?
Zid wrote: So I got two Defilers for $50; yes, I know they're meh at best.
However, for the price, I couldn't pass them up. Looking through stuff, I'm thinking 1k sons may be the way to go; ready access to warptime and prescience, the ability to give them a 4++, and healing them seems like it might just work... I know they need to be far cheaper, and why they're not immune to heavy weapon penalties is beyond me for the price... thoughts?
Defilers aren't the worst of the bunch and aren't to bad on the price (notice the large amount of qualifiers in that sentence). A defiler with reaper and scourge is only 167 points which isn't bad for 14 T7 wounds with a demon save. They are true distraction carinfexes as their real strength is in CC. I treat the guns and nice to haves but nothing more and rush them at an enemy line. Tank heavy armies are the best targets as they can bad touch and tie up a lot with their model size. Anecdotally, people surprisingly focus fire on them for some reason which serves me just fine as it less guns on my better models.
You know me, I like to run what I feel is da-bestest killiest Chaos stuff
That said, 169 points to distract isn't TOO bad... but when you put them against a PBC, or Oblits, or Havoks, they feel...flat. I like the idea, what faction do you run them as?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re Warptiming a Defiler or Mauler, then there’s things to be said for a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh. If your opponent’s obliged with their deployment, 2D6 extra movement is a first turn charge. Whole bunch of other stuff can work in a list with them. 0+ save Oblits, Possessed, ect
Thats not a bad idea, doing a DG list and slingshotting them with a Gnarlmaw. My only issue here is that 1k sons boost the defilers staying power, while nurgle supports its killiness (spells and buffs) outside of miasma. I already feel like I'm gimping myself taking two, its just how to best make them work... I feel like if they had the Helbrute keyword they would actually be very usable, especially in Death Guard armies.
Defiler does not equal Helbrute, in any way shape or form. Besides, they already have one of the most broken stratagems in the Chaos Codexes, which is a 1 CP reroll EVERYTHING button in a phase.
Defiler does not equal Helbrute, in any way shape or form. Besides, they already have one of the most broken stratagems in the Chaos Codexes, which is a 1 CP reroll EVERYTHING button in a phase.
True, but using 1 cp to make something usable... especially if you have two, isnt too great; considering its bs 5+ once it moves. Im just saying it was considered a walker in past editions, which seems to have been replaced with other keywords.
Nature's Minister wrote: It's only a broken stratagem if you can use it on something halfway decent. Maybe a decimator.
Units shouldn't be priced like they always have a Strategem active though.
There is however allready a precedent, that certain weapons in combination with certain auras got a pricehike. Infact the SM codex seems to suffer from the aura efects allready and if the Auras get priced in then probably stratagems should also be priced in?
Not saying i like it as it is one of the reasons why Robute is quite popular and why marine buffs in general will fast lead to overpowered in other Marine + codexes, probably one of the more annoying problems.
Nature's Minister wrote: It's only a broken stratagem if you can use it on something halfway decent. Maybe a decimator.
Units shouldn't be priced like they always have a Strategem active though.
I agree, and its one of the reasons i dislike strategems; they took the uniqueness from the units and made abilities that can be used on multiple units. As such, they price things inappropriately to try and balance the strats; but then how did the castellan get so overlooked?
Instead, put the abilities on the units, then make strats more... i dunno, strategic? Like redeploying units, calling in air raids, getting in reinforcements earlier, even the reroll one dice a phase. Then place some of the abilities back on units and price them appropriately based on what the unit does, rather than what it might do given some one time use ability
Honestly I think Strategems should be more expensive and CP should be rare but affect the entire armies. Like, it seems weird to me only one Daemon Engine is going to get Daemonforge, or one Space Wolves unit somehow does True Grit.
I think Defiler has good stat and it should be a nice addition to my deamon beast army, but I cannot stad the model.
It's too extreme, love or hate ad I hate it: is there a decent third party alternative that is almost ready to play?
I don't want to embark myself in a difficult conversion project.
Look no further than ork codex. Most of their stuff is still bloated in points, but they are made good by external rules and buffs. GW hasnt been looking at just the datasheet ever since 8th dropped.
vaklor4 wrote: Look no further than ork codex. Most of their stuff is still bloated in points, but they are made good by external rules and buffs. GW hasnt been looking at just the datasheet ever since 8th dropped.
I just miss the old days where each unit was unique, and you didn't pick them just because they had "X statline" or "X equipment", which is what 8th feels like anymore. I remember niche units having uses in 5th just because of the special stuff certain units did.
I find that having buff characters like dark apostles and even foot chaos warriors and champions in a rhino with a zerker squad is overkill. In fact, I believe that 2 squads of 5 zerkers squeezed into a Rhino, unsupported has far more killing power and flexibility than just one squad along with a dark apostle or a champion. And the cost is not really that huge of a difference.
A zerker squad of 5 with all chainaxes and champ power fist is under 100 points. you are paying 20 odd points more than a dark apostle or a champion but now you have two squads instead of just one. And the hitting power of a squad of zerkers is far far beyond that of any dark apostle or champion no matter what gear you put on it.
Alsp, zerkers are so strong in close combat they dont need further buffs. I tried them unsupported before and short of an imperial knight, or super heavy, everything else just melted to those multitide of chain axe and power fist attacks.
I believe that its better to have our heroes as jump pack chaos lords with relic weapon so that they are a cheaper version of the smash captain that the marines have. A rhino with two zerker squads along with a jump pack chaos lord behind it has three threats, all of which have a big reach once the Rhino gets up the board. Well, either that or a khorne daemon prince of you have the points.
This brings me to my next thought. Khorne world eaters needs shooting to clear away chaff and blockers. Because no matter what, zerkers are glass cannons. You want them charging the expensive stuff, not the cheap blocking stuff.
While it goes against the desire of world eaters who love to get into melee, a world eaters army that has zerkers absolutely need shooting (to clear the chaff). Once you have the chaff gone and your zerkers go in, stuff will just melt and die. Key thing is the squad has to be able to charge something good and powerful, not that ten man infantry squad.
I believe that a more effective world eaters army or any CSM army with zerkers needs a fair amount of shooting. The only cases where you don't would be if you are fighting other elite armies who don't have chaff or cheap units for blockers.
What do you guys think? Of having two squads vs one squad and a hero. And of the amount of shooting you need in a zerker army.
Berzerkers usually don't NEED a sitter. And two units are more flexible...
But rerolling fail to wound makes them way more flexible against tough multiwound units (knights..) but I can see why you would drop the sitter.
And sure, 2units can cover more ground, but not that much more considering they disembark from the same transport. And bigger units benefit more from stratagems (fight twice, veterans of the long war). And bigger units are easier to wrap around enemies, making sure they can't fall back.
No Summoning (outside of Narrative, which won’t be that uncommon) but I want to use each Daemonic locus.
Karanak runs up with the MoK Maulerfiend to rendezvous with the Warp Talons, providing rerolls and DTW coverage
Herald on Steed runs up with ECDP & MoS Maulerfiend, who Warptimes for a first turn charge
Herald on Disc runs up with TSons & MoT Defiler
Poxbringer follows DG Daemons and MoN Defiler providing healing support and situational buffs
Fabius arrives with the Possessed in the KaC, enhances them in enemy turn after DA has been cast on them for minimum self-damage
Abaddon teleports down with Terminators
IW & EC Infantry sit back as firebases
No idea what to do with AL now their strat’s been nerfed
Could maybe do with a bit more armour? Maybe a Contemptor or WW Scorpius?
Might add some Renegades; a unit each turned from the Loyalist first foundings... probably start with ex-WS bikers for a first turn flame & charge?
I love the WT minis and they give Karanak a second buffing synergy, two units dropping in with his rerolls aura gives a decent chance of stopping overwatch. When charging something like an IK or a unit with lots of autohit weapons, that can be pretty solid. In a non-tourney list this size, I can live with their overcosting.
lindsay40k wrote: I love the WT minis and they give Karanak a second buffing synergy, two units dropping in with his rerolls aura gives a decent chance of stopping overwatch. When charging something like an IK or a unit with lots of autohit weapons, that can be pretty solid. In a non-tourney list this size, I can live with their overcosting.
If you want to give Karanak more buffing synergy, forcing in Warp Talons isn't the way to do it.
I’m not making a tourney list, I’m making an ‘everybody’s here’ Chaos list with a handful of units from each Legion and I’d like it to have some interesting moving parts. Main thing I want from here is Alpha Legion ideas that bear in mind what else is present.
So would a khorne herald in a khorne daemons detachment give rerolls to charges to khorne warp talons in a CSM detachment?
I really want to start running khorne daemons alongside my black legion but finding the synergies really confusing. Can anybody give me a breakdown?
I think I realised taking a daemon Prince in the CSM detachment means I can reroll 1s for both CSM and daemons so better to do that than take him as a Daemon HQ. Is that right?
Possessed suddenly don't seem as meh if they're getting khorne buffs like rerolling charges and +1 strength...
Abaddon303 wrote: So would a khorne herald in a khorne daemons detachment give rerolls to charges to khorne warp talons in a CSM detachment?
I really want to start running khorne daemons alongside my black legion but finding the synergies really confusing. Can anybody give me a breakdown?
I think I realised taking a daemon Prince in the CSM detachment means I can reroll 1s for both CSM and daemons so better to do that than take him as a Daemon HQ. Is that right?
Possessed suddenly don't seem as meh if they're getting khorne buffs like rerolling charges and +1 strength...
Chaos Daemons auras that affect DAEMON units do affect Possessed, Obliterators, Defilers, etc.
The big restriction is you can only target CD Stratagems on CD units. Not-CD DAEMON units can only indirectly benefit from them via the auras some of them create. (Nurgle and Tzeentch are my favourites in that regard.)
Worth noting that for 10pts Khorne Possessed can have an icon that gives them re-rolls on charges without being anchored to a Locus. It’s the Daemon Engines that benefit most from the charge rerolls.
There’s a huge gap between a LEGION Daemon Prince of Khorne that can give re-rolls to a few non-DAEMON LEGION units, and a CD DPoK with a Skullreaver that gets +1S&A on the charge and can beat down a Knight before breakfast.
Hmm interesting thank you Lindsay. I don't have the daemon codex but toying with a khorne detachment to add to my black legion. So clearly putting my DP in the daemon detachment is actually better than using the marine aura. Shame he's modelled with two talons! Maybe I need to snap his arm off...
I see your point with the possessed banner, but warp talons can't take a banner can they? So dropping a herald with them is an option but I'm not sure the CP for the deepstrike and the cost of the herald is really worth the hassle of making a pretty crap unit barely viable.
Might pick up the Daemon codex and have a look. Waiting to see what's in the wrath and rapture box as my black legion is exclusively khorne and Slaanesh marked. I've not seen any reason to use the tzeentch or nurgle marks. If the box looks interesting and good value I'll get it otherwise I might just get the khorne starter set.
I'm bored of running cultist battalions for the CP, I like the idea of a Daemon bloodletter battalion with marine vanguard or even supreme command
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jesus I just looked up the skullreaver
6 attacks hitting on 2s at S11. -4ap and d6 damage each! Plus you're prob gonna get at least 1d3 mortal wounds.
Not suprised it'll take out a knight in one go.
I have ran the khorne warp talons as part of a bloodletter bomb with a herald, its an expensive but viable tactic. The advantage is you can get away with running just 20 bloodletters instead of 30 since the warp talons are going to take care of overwatch for you, saving a cp. Make them world eaters for more attacks in cc, they can do work but they are definatly not an optimal choice.
Yeah, the CP cost on warping in the Herald is why I take Karanak and run him up there. That, and I converted him and like to field my handiwork
Sounds like Wrath and Rapture is perfect for you. Tzeentch and Nurgle Daemonkin works well with TSon and DG stuff but has limited CSM synergy. (There’s decent Epidemius + CSM lists, but they really want a load of DG Drones & Haulers alongside the Obliterators et al.)
Abaddon303 wrote: Might pick up the Daemon codex and have a look. Waiting to see what's in the wrath and rapture box as my black legion is exclusively khorne and Slaanesh marked. I've not seen any reason to use the tzeentch or nurgle marks. If the box looks interesting and good value I'll get it otherwise I might just get the khorne starter set.
Unless I'm missing something, the only new models in W&R are Karanak, the Slaanesh Herald and the new Seekers. Most of the people who would want those already have the other models.
So I'm not sure who they are targeting with this. It's not a 'deal' buying stuff you already have.
Well the Abaddon303 seems to not have any of those so for example players like him ;-) Or players who want those new models NOW rather than wait for few months. Or players who want to expand.
You expecting all new models? That's not how these deals work. They always have old models that have already paid for their sprues and given profit and which aren't selling in huge quantities anymore(remember first few months of kit forms bulk of it's lifetime sales) so the plastic itself is essentially free, it doesn't result in huge loss of sales(those wouldn't be selling for huge quantities anyway so GW can afford to use sell them at discount) and makes players to invest bigger chunk than if they had just bought new models AND giving also at the same time discount for players.
End result: GW sells more big pricier boxes without hurting their sales by discounts all that much while getting players starting in new daemon armies or bulk up existing models.
It's win-win prospect for everybody. As it is if I wasn't neck deep in to-buy list for adeptus titanicus I might bolster up my fledging daemon force as well with this.
tneva82 wrote: Well the Abaddon303 seems to not have any of those so for example players like him ;-) Or players who want those new models NOW rather than wait for few months. Or players who want to expand.
You expecting all new models? That's not how these deals work. They always have old models that have already paid for their sprues and given profit and which aren't selling in huge quantities anymore(remember first few months of kit forms bulk of it's lifetime sales) so the plastic itself is essentially free, it doesn't result in huge loss of sales(those wouldn't be selling for huge quantities anyway so GW can afford to use sell them at discount) and makes players to invest bigger chunk than if they had just bought new models AND giving also at the same time discount for players.
End result: GW sells more big pricier boxes without hurting their sales by discounts all that much while getting players starting in new daemon armies or bulk up existing models.
It's win-win prospect for everybody. As it is if I wasn't neck deep in to-buy list for adeptus titanicus I might bolster up my fledging daemon force as well with this.
No, I'm not expecting all new models.
But it would be nice to get the Herald and new Seekers as stand-alone kits instead of needing to buy a box.
And sure, there are some people who would like to get some Daemons for the first time. But there is a much larger pool of people who already have Daemon armies that would like to get the new models. The fact they would need to buy a box that's mostly stuff they already own is the problem.
So no, that's not a win-win. That's win-lose for most people. And probably a lose-lose, considering a lot of people will pass on this deal.
If nothing else, the models will be available separately on ebay. The cryptek from Forgebane is going for fifteen bucks, which is cheaper than what the blister would cost if GW was selling it.
Arachnofiend wrote: If nothing else, the models will be available separately on ebay. The cryptek from Forgebane is going for fifteen bucks, which is cheaper than what the blister would cost if GW was selling it.
Is that really fair to assume?
If people are buying the box to get started / bolster their existing forces, like you said - aren't they going to want to hold onto the HQs from each army? If anything, scarcity would drive the price up.
If people are buying boxes to get the new models, I would assume they would be selling off unneeded Bloodletters / Daemonettes. That drives the price of those units down. A glut could lead to people not being able to sell those models.
Either situation would be a lose-lose. Unless there's something more to it, like revised rules or something, this isn't much of a deal.
But it would be nice to get the Herald and new Seekers as stand-alone kits instead of needing to buy a box.
You will get them. LATER. Whole point is to get people buy first the more expensive box and spend more than they would have just by buying new models on their own. Forge bane. If you forget the old models no saving whatsoever. Ditto for speed freak. If you are only for new buggies it's bad deal.
It's more profit to do it this way than to release the individual boxes right away. Why you think they keep doing this pattern all the time? Because it gives them more profit. It also gives players discount box and with little wait individual boxes as well.
On your logic forge bane and speed freak box sets wouldn't sell either yet they both sell...So you have been proven wrong.
Arachnofiend wrote: If nothing else, the models will be available separately on ebay. The cryptek from Forgebane is going for fifteen bucks, which is cheaper than what the blister would cost if GW was selling it.
Is that really fair to assume?
If people are buying the box to get started / bolster their existing forces, like you said - aren't they going to want to hold onto the HQs from each army? If anything, scarcity would drive the price up.
If people are buying boxes to get the new models, I would assume they would be selling off unneeded Bloodletters / Daemonettes. That drives the price of those units down. A glut could lead to people not being able to sell those models.
Either situation would be a lose-lose. Unless there's something more to it, like revised rules or something, this isn't much of a deal.
You... are aware that people buy up these boxes specifically to sell the contents, right? You will definitely be able to find the new models on the open market.
Arachnofiend wrote: You... are aware that people buy up these boxes specifically to sell the contents, right? You will definitely be able to find the new models on the open market.
Yes, and the law of supply and demand still applies. For it to be a 'deal,' there would need an excess goods available to create downwards pricing pressure.
eBay sellers work to maximize profit. With a set like this, they won't face much competition from casual gamers looking to sell off models they have no use for. Also, the regular Daemon sprues will compete for sales with existing product, which creates a disincentive to actually break up the boxes. For example, how do you sell the Bloodletters from W&R without undercutting the price of a standard box of Bloodletters? Anyone who currently sells CDs see the smart move is not break up the W&R box to begin with.
While I'm sure it will be possible to purchase these models individually, supply will influence the cost. There are strong reasons to suspect initial supply will be low, thus the price on the new models will be high. Once the initial demand from people who really want the new models wanes, sellers will have a lot of excess inventory.
So I still don't see who they're targeting with this. Maybe the ideal consumer is a CSM player looking to add Bloodletter bomb detachments and curious about Slaanesh.
For one they are targeting me. I already own 30 deamonettes and 40 bloodletters, but i want more. Only model that i already own and don't need in that set is karanak. I am super excited for this box to come out. How often do they come out with a box where both sides are useable by a single player with no conversion needed?
- the new minis in Wrath & Rapture are Karanak, Flesh Hounds, Herald of Slaanesh (or perhaps a new infantry hero?), Fiends of Slaanesh. The Seekers are the existing kit.
- this is a tactics thread, not a business studies workshop
Azuza001 wrote: For one they are targeting me. I already own 30 deamonettes and 40 bloodletters, but i want more. Only model that i already own and don't need in that set is karanak. I am super excited for this box to come out. How often do they come out with a box where both sides are useable by a single player with no conversion needed?
Yeah you made that clear already. The fact you want W&R does not mean a lot of other people do.
Most people are either very hot or very cold on Daemons. The ones who really enjoy them already have complete armies and would only want the new models. The ones who don't won't buy this box.
While I am sure there's some middle ground that's clamoring for GW to take their money now, I'm also sure it's relatively small. Like, they could probably all fit on a single Econoliner to travel to Nebraska for the midnight launch party at a LGS (and probably would if they were promised 40k-themed snacks.) The rest of the people who would find this appealing are casual gamers with a desire to fill excess shelf space with models they will never use. They won't be lining up for pre-orders.
Don't take this the wrong way but you do not sound like someone who's in touch with the average Chaos player. You're talking about the virtue of models with no options. For a long time, a big part of the appeal of Chaos has been the limitless conversion options. Static, monopose plastic is not what drives people into the arms of the Dark Gods.
The points you make about both sides being usable are not going to drive people to rush out and get this. The appeal is the new models, only they are being packed in a way that comes with redundancy for most existing players. Which is why I still wonder who they are targeting with this release.
Since you don't want your Karanak, PM me when you get the box and let's do a trade. I want the inside track since there won't be many people out there like you.
Anyway, i picked up the Daemon codex today and have been reading through a bit. I'd heard about bloodletter bomb but having read the actual rules I can understand it's infamy! They might be glass cannons but my berserkers normally die pretty sharpish too so I'm not too worried about that. I like how you can deepstrike them rather than pay for a rhino and the shear number of them should be able to tie up a large chunk of an opponent's backline too.
So as far as army composition am I better going with a cultist battalion or a bloodletter battalion? I'm thinking I'll let the Daemon battalion handle the melee and my black legion will probably be the gunline. Sound sensible?
Azuza001 wrote: For one they are targeting me. I already own 30 deamonettes and 40 bloodletters, but i want more. Only model that i already own and don't need in that set is karanak. I am super excited for this box to come out. How often do they come out with a box where both sides are useable by a single player with no conversion needed?
Yeah you made that clear already. The fact you want W&R does not mean a lot of other people do.
Most people are either very hot or very cold on Daemons. The ones who really enjoy them already have complete armies and would only want the new models. The ones who don't won't buy this box.
While I am sure there's some middle ground that's clamoring for GW to take their money now, I'm also sure it's relatively small. Like, they could probably all fit on a single Econoliner to travel to Nebraska for the midnight launch party at a LGS (and probably would if they were promised 40k-themed snacks.) The rest of the people who would find this appealing are casual gamers with a desire to fill excess shelf space with models they will never use. They won't be lining up for pre-orders.
Don't take this the wrong way but you do not sound like someone who's in touch with the average Chaos player. You're talking about the virtue of models with no options. For a long time, a big part of the appeal of Chaos has been the limitless conversion options. Static, monopose plastic is not what drives people into the arms of the Dark Gods.
The points you make about both sides being usable are not going to drive people to rush out and get this. The appeal is the new models, only they are being packed in a way that comes with redundancy for most existing players. Which is why I still wonder who they are targeting with this release.
Since you don't want your Karanak, PM me when you get the box and let's do a trade. I want the inside track since there won't be many people out there like you.
Um... not to be a jerk or anything, but this is the first time i posted about wanting this box set. How did i make it clear already? I think you have me confused with one of the others you have been commenting about this lol.
My feelings are they are releasing it with rules for both 40k and age of sigmar (which is cool) and its value is terrific compared to any of the other battleforces that is coming out. If you see it like that its a good deal for any chaos player that wants to dip their toes into deamons, any deamon player that wanta reinforments, or anyone who is thinking of starting deamons.
But to be fair i can also see why some people wouldnt want this. I would have really preferred a full slaanesh battleforce with nosie marines and deamons in it.
As far as karanak goes and in the spirit of good faith sure, when this comes out pm me and we can figure out a trade, i am fine with that.
Morkphoiz wrote: I'd like to pick up a 30k style Night Lords army because I love the looks of the FW night raptors.
Current plan for the first 1000pts is:
1 HQ (dont know yet, probably jump pack general with ld debuff trait)
about 20 Raptors. Probably MSU with Plasmaguns.
1 Leviathan with 2 Butcher Cannon Arrays
1 Contemptor with Close Combat arm and Butcher Cannon.
Could this work for a start? I know i'd instalose against things like orks or tyras but It'd be mostly a fluff/fun Project.
If it's for fun/fluff and you love the raptors then go for it! You should be able to get some units down -7ld between the NLs trait, Raptors and Icon of Nurgle rules and the Butcher Cannons. Even against Orks that can put the pain on units other than the 30 Boyz; I'm thinking units of nobz or any of the specialist mobs tend to be smaller. Tyranids is a bit different...
Only thing I'd say about raptors is that they really ain't that great in combat. So it might be useful having a second jump-pack lord just for better swings in combat, as your raptors are gonna want to get into combat to tag units to stop them shooting, and they might struggle to end the unit in the opponent's turn if they don't want to fall back. But not sure on fitting that into the 1000pts.
Also there is not really any anti-tank in there. Perhaps some meltas on some of the raptors? Might be good to have a sorcerer then to warptime them from your deployment zone into half melta range to increase likelihood of death to whatever tank you need dead turn one. But that unit of raptors WILL then die, so I'd be making sure they've tagged something else; get their points back by killing something then stopping something else from being killed by stopping shooting. Normal moves and warptime can jump over units; charge moves cannot now though following the last FAQ.
Morkphoiz wrote: I'd like to pick up a 30k style Night Lords army because I love the looks of the FW night raptors.
Current plan for the first 1000pts is:
1 HQ (dont know yet, probably jump pack general with ld debuff trait)
about 20 Raptors. Probably MSU with Plasmaguns.
1 Leviathan with 2 Butcher Cannon Arrays
1 Contemptor with Close Combat arm and Butcher Cannon.
Could this work for a start? I know i'd instalose against things like orks or tyras but It'd be mostly a fluff/fun Project.
If it's for fun/fluff and you love the raptors then go for it! You should be able to get some units down -7ld between the NLs trait, Raptors and Icon of Nurgle rules and the Butcher Cannons. Even against Orks that can put the pain on units other than the 30 Boyz; I'm thinking units of nobz or any of the specialist mobs tend to be smaller. Tyranids is a bit different...
Only thing I'd say about raptors is that they really ain't that great in combat. So it might be useful having a second jump-pack lord just for better swings in combat, as your raptors are gonna want to get into combat to tag units to stop them shooting, and they might struggle to end the unit in the opponent's turn if they don't want to fall back. But not sure on fitting that into the 1000pts.
Also there is not really any anti-tank in there. Perhaps some meltas on some of the raptors? Might be good to have a sorcerer then to warptime them from your deployment zone into half melta range to increase likelihood of death to whatever tank you need dead turn one. But that unit of raptors WILL then die, so I'd be making sure they've tagged something else; get their points back by killing something then stopping something else from being killed by stopping shooting. Normal moves and warptime can jump over units; charge moves cannot now though following the last FAQ.
I don't know if you were implying that you can Warptime a unit that arrived from deepstrike but unfortunately you can't do this anymore since like 2 faq. And meltas are actually worst than rapid fire overcharged plasma, without even comparing the price, when you arrive from deepstrike (so within 12'' but more than 9'' )
the best raptor loadout is probably something like this, been a while since i've played my NL but : 5 man, 2 plasma gun, 1 champion with double plasma pistol. If you wanna go all in, you take 3, one lord with jump pack and claws of the black hunt for good measure since were playing fluffy, and you drop everything nearby a heavy infantry or small vehicule you want to kill, and possibly near a chaff unit you can charge to protect yourself the turn after. Raptor are somewhat weak in melee, so they shouldn't kill what they charged, so you can just trap a poor guy inside your circle of raptor and wait for next turn to move out and shoot something again, hopefully making your points back. It's fun as hell to play, so there's always that!
Arachnofiend wrote: You... are aware that people buy up these boxes specifically to sell the contents, right? You will definitely be able to find the new models on the open market.
Yes, and the law of supply and demand still applies. For it to be a 'deal,' there would need an excess goods available to create downwards pricing pressure.
eBay sellers work to maximize profit. With a set like this, they won't face much competition from casual gamers looking to sell off models they have no use for. Also, the regular Daemon sprues will compete for sales with existing product, which creates a disincentive to actually break up the boxes. For example, how do you sell the Bloodletters from W&R without undercutting the price of a standard box of Bloodletters? Anyone who currently sells CDs see the smart move is not break up the W&R box to begin with.
While I'm sure it will be possible to purchase these models individually, supply will influence the cost. There are strong reasons to suspect initial supply will be low, thus the price on the new models will be high. Once the initial demand from people who really want the new models wanes, sellers will have a lot of excess inventory.
So I still don't see who they're targeting with this. Maybe the ideal consumer is a CSM player looking to add Bloodletter bomb detachments and curious about Slaanesh.
You still havent' explained how forgebane and speed freak, both which absolutely SUCK in terms of value if you want only new models, sell if the old models are so irrelevant...Yet both sold as was evident by amount of warglaives out there before they came on their own(and before codex even came!) or shokk speed dragstas out there.
The method provenly WORKS for GW. Mucha mucha sales, mucha mucha profits. The whole point of it is to sell boxes at higher price than new models individually while providing the discount with old models and have this before the individual boxes come out to ensure they sell more of these big boxes than they would have if the individual boxes would come first or same time. And it...works. It's been shown over and over and over again. You don't even need new models really to sell discount boxes like these. New space marine commander and ork warboss aren't exactly new uber models everybody is glamouring for right? But add in discount and hey presto it sells.
tneva82 wrote: You still havent' explained how forgebane and speed freak, both which absolutely SUCK in terms of value if you want only new models, sell if the old models are so irrelevant...Yet both sold as was evident by amount of warglaives out there before they came on their own(and before codex even came!) or shokk speed dragstas out there.
We were discussing Wrath and Rapture. Please forgive the omissions, I was unaware having an opinion also obligated me to explain the marketing plan for every boxed set ever produced by GW...
tneva82 wrote: The method provenly WORKS for GW. Mucha mucha sales, mucha mucha profits. The whole point of it is to sell boxes at higher price than new models individually while providing the discount with old models and have this before the individual boxes come out to ensure they sell more of these big boxes than they would have if the individual boxes would come first or same time. And it...works. It's been shown over and over and over again. You don't even need new models really to sell discount boxes like these. New space marine commander and ork warboss aren't exactly new uber models everybody is glamouring for right? But add in discount and hey presto it sells.
I think you are saying each boxed set GW has ever released has resulted in outstanding financial success at mucha mucha levels. I think you are also saying discounts are why people buy models, any other concerns are secondary.
That's a fascinating hypothesis and I look forward to seeing how it plays out with W&R. Who could argue with all that proven mucha?
Azuza001 wrote: For one they are targeting me. I already own 30 deamonettes and 40 bloodletters, but i want more. Only model that i already own and don't need in that set is karanak. I am super excited for this box to come out. How often do they come out with a box where both sides are useable by a single player with no conversion needed?
Yeah you made that clear already. The fact you want W&R does not mean a lot of other people do.
Most people are either very hot or very cold on Daemons. The ones who really enjoy them already have complete armies and would only want the new models. The ones who don't won't buy this box.
While I am sure there's some middle ground that's clamoring for GW to take their money now, I'm also sure it's relatively small. Like, they could probably all fit on a single Econoliner to travel to Nebraska for the midnight launch party at a LGS (and probably would if they were promised 40k-themed snacks.) The rest of the people who would find this appealing are casual gamers with a desire to fill excess shelf space with models they will never use. They won't be lining up for pre-orders.
Don't take this the wrong way but you do not sound like someone who's in touch with the average Chaos player. You're talking about the virtue of models with no options. For a long time, a big part of the appeal of Chaos has been the limitless conversion options. Static, monopose plastic is not what drives people into the arms of the Dark Gods.
The points you make about both sides being usable are not going to drive people to rush out and get this. The appeal is the new models, only they are being packed in a way that comes with redundancy for most existing players. Which is why I still wonder who they are targeting with this release.
Since you don't want your Karanak, PM me when you get the box and let's do a trade. I want the inside track since there won't be many people out there like you.
Um... not to be a jerk or anything, but this is the first time i posted about wanting this box set. How did i make it clear already? I think you have me confused with one of the others you have been commenting about this lol.
You got me! Totally guilty.
Azuza001 wrote: My feelings are they are releasing it with rules for both 40k and age of sigmar (which is cool) and its value is terrific compared to any of the other battleforces that is coming out. If you see it like that its a good deal for any chaos player that wants to dip their toes into deamons, any deamon player that wanta reinforments, or anyone who is thinking of starting deamons.
But to be fair i can also see why some people wouldnt want this. I would have really preferred a full slaanesh battleforce with nosie marines and deamons in it.
As far as karanak goes and in the spirit of good faith sure, when this comes out pm me and we can figure out a trade, i am fine with that.
That's reasonable and I will definitely take you up on it.
Something I hadn't considered is that W&R would be more appealing to AOS players, especially new ones who just got into the hobby. I appreciate you for pointing that out.
I don't know if you were implying that you can Warptime a unit that arrived from deepstrike but unfortunately you can't do this anymore since like 2 faq. And meltas are actually worst than rapid fire overcharged plasma, without even comparing the price, when you arrive from deepstrike (so within 12'' but more than 9'' )
the best raptor loadout is probably something like this, been a while since i've played my NL but : 5 man, 2 plasma gun, 1 champion with double plasma pistol. If you wanna go all in, you take 3, one lord with jump pack and claws of the black hunt for good measure since were playing fluffy, and you drop everything nearby a heavy infantry or small vehicule you want to kill, and possibly near a chaff unit you can charge to protect yourself the turn after. Raptor are somewhat weak in melee, so they shouldn't kill what they charged, so you can just trap a poor guy inside your circle of raptor and wait for next turn to move out and shoot something again, hopefully making your points back. It's fun as hell to play, so there's always that!
I feel like I touched on the warptime and the not deep striking? I mean I wasnt brutally explicit but I was assuming people have read a bit of this thread as that is covered A LOT. But maybe only weirdos like me have actually read this entire thing. What can I say, I had a long train commute for most of 8th...
I acknowledge plasma is better generally speaking but if there are 20 raptors and nothing vaguely anti-tank aside from plasma I thought it might be nice to have something that does more than 2damage a shot. 3 melts hits at half range are better than three rapid-fire plasma guns at the same range against high T targets I'm pretty sure; I think I've seen mathammer of that somewhere. It's literally the only time it is better though. Have them start on the board and hopefully warptime them into range of something worth meltaing. And then charge something else.
And yes the bit about them leaving the fight in their turn! I forgot about the benifits of the Fly keyword!
One potential quandary with them and the morale debuff stacking so much might be that units might melt in the Night Lords turn. I guess that comes down to picking targets though, for the whole army to get the debuff where it needs to be and raptors where they need to be also..
I don't know if you were implying that you can Warptime a unit that arrived from deepstrike but unfortunately you can't do this anymore since like 2 faq. And meltas are actually worst than rapid fire overcharged plasma, without even comparing the price, when you arrive from deepstrike (so within 12'' but more than 9'' )
the best raptor loadout is probably something like this, been a while since i've played my NL but : 5 man, 2 plasma gun, 1 champion with double plasma pistol. If you wanna go all in, you take 3, one lord with jump pack and claws of the black hunt for good measure since were playing fluffy, and you drop everything nearby a heavy infantry or small vehicule you want to kill, and possibly near a chaff unit you can charge to protect yourself the turn after. Raptor are somewhat weak in melee, so they shouldn't kill what they charged, so you can just trap a poor guy inside your circle of raptor and wait for next turn to move out and shoot something again, hopefully making your points back. It's fun as hell to play, so there's always that!
I feel like I touched on the warptime and the not deep striking? I mean I wasnt brutally explicit but I was assuming people have read a bit of this thread as that is covered A LOT. But maybe only weirdos like me have actually read this entire thing. What can I say, I had a long train commute for most of 8th...
I acknowledge plasma is better generally speaking but if there are 20 raptors and nothing vaguely anti-tank aside from plasma I thought it might be nice to have something that does more than 2damage a shot. 3 melts hits at half range are better than three rapid-fire plasma guns at the same range against high T targets I'm pretty sure; I think I've seen mathammer of that somewhere. It's literally the only time it is better though. Have them start on the board and hopefully warptime them into range of something worth meltaing. And then charge something else.
And yes the bit about them leaving the fight in their turn! I forgot about the benifits of the Fly keyword!
One potential quandary with them and the morale debuff stacking so much might be that units might melt in the Night Lords turn. I guess that comes down to picking targets though, for the whole army to get the debuff where it needs to be and raptors where they need to be also..
3 Melta Guns are also more expensive than 3 Plasma Guns. That's 51 points vs 39 (which basically means another Plasma Gun). Skip the Melta until we see if Chapter Approved understands we don't want to pay 17 points for a single shot.
Im running a 2k list of World Eaters paired with another faction but i cant decide which. The main list is 2 zerker buses, some cultists and a lord of skulls, but im wondering what I should add for the last 600-ish points. I got two ideas
Khorne daemons battalion for a bloodletter bomb and skullreaver DP (facing a list with knights and primaris)
Or a Tsons battalion with a couple rubric MSUs, cultists, two sorcerers and ahriman, in the hopes of juicing up my lord of skulls to be a first turn mega-charge, and toss out smites as the game progresses.
vaklor4 wrote: Im running a 2k list of World Eaters paired with another faction but i cant decide which. The main list is 2 zerker buses, some cultists and a lord of skulls, but im wondering what I should add for the last 600-ish points. I got two ideas
Khorne daemons battalion for a bloodletter bomb and skullreaver DP (facing a list with knights and primaris)
Or a Tsons battalion with a couple rubric MSUs, cultists, two sorcerers and ahriman, in the hopes of juicing up my lord of skulls to be a first turn mega-charge, and toss out smites as the game progresses.
Hmm, it seems that you could profit from some long range support. I guess psyker support would be also something good, but not particulary fluffy for a WE list.
You could always build a R&H Spearhead/ Battalion out of 600 pts, which could include up to 3 basilisks for long range anti everything
(infact a spearhead out of 3 Basilisks and a commander would cost you 349 pts)
You could add in a commander for 25 pts as a second HQ and then add 3x10 R&H cultists for another 120 pts (which will probably not go up in price) for 494 pts. add in another hellhound maybee? or more bodies?
Other then that, maybee a Renegade knight? Amirigers are quite cheap, so why not?
If those are the only 2 options you have the i say khorne.
A bloodletter bomb near a dp for rerolls can really put the hurt on anything, especially with the attack again stratagem. Add to that the lord of skulls is a deamon of khorne so you can reroll failed charges if near the deamon prince and the deamon prince himself can totally wreck a knight with the right artifact you have a serious t2 assault set up easy. The down side is t1 that lord of skulls is going to be targeted hard and probably die. But that should buy your beserkers time and cover to also get into position.
Also.. its the fluffy choice if that matters at all.
Too bad you dont have any skull cannons. They are pretty nice in a deamon army.
I run bloodletter bombs and t sons together. Super nasty with ahriman casting death hex with cabalistic focus on whatever your skullreaver prince or bloodletter bombs are hitting
vaklor4 wrote: Im running a 2k list of World Eaters paired with another faction but i cant decide which. The main list is 2 zerker buses, some cultists and a lord of skulls, but im wondering what I should add for the last 600-ish points. I got two ideas
Khorne daemons battalion for a bloodletter bomb and skullreaver DP (facing a list with knights and primaris)
Or a Tsons battalion with a couple rubric MSUs, cultists, two sorcerers and ahriman, in the hopes of juicing up my lord of skulls to be a first turn mega-charge, and toss out smites as the game progresses.
My opinion is that you need something that can clear chaff. Berzerkers are a glass cannon. Everything they touch melts, but they get one good melee hit in (assuming they don't get shot off the board before that good hit because they were in their Rhinos). But after that good melee hit, any player worth their salt would shoot them off the board (or counter charge them with something that can wipe them out). So, the last thing you want is for your Zerkers to charge into a screen of cheap infantry. The same goes for your lord of skulls. Like any super heavy, it can be blocked with just one lone suicidal model standing in front of it.
Ok, maybe if you are facing knights and primaris, its less of an issue. (Probably unlikely to face any screen). But is this a tailor made army against knights and primaris or a more generic take all comers list.
If its a take all comers list, I would suggest having stuff that can help clear chaff. So, some shooting would be good. In any case, if you are facing knights, it may be a challenge to rely on just melee to kill off knights. They have T8 and so many wounds, and if you charge a few units into a few knights, they can use CP to interrupt and delete a whole squad of zerkers.
A slanaash detachment with a havocs squad with heavy bolters led by a sorceror is a consideration. Thats 12 shots that can be boosted to 24 shots with cacophany. Plus the sorceror can cast warptime on that Lord of skulls for a possible turn 1 charge into enemy lines. Huge distraction for your opponent.
I feel that blood letter bomb sort of interferes with zerkers. Both are a turn 2 charge. They might get in the way of each other.
If the leaks are correct, chaos terminators are now 23 points base. Which means they are just 29 points with a combi bolter and a power sword. Thats pretty decent.
And Chaos LR are 60 points cheaper now. I kinda like the idea of 3 LRs packed with 6 squads of 30 zerkers. That's a lot of shooting, plus well protected transport for the deadliest melee marines we have.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3 Melta Guns are also more expensive than 3 Plasma Guns. That's 51 points vs 39 (which basically means another Plasma Gun). Skip the Melta until we see if Chapter Approved understands we don't want to pay 17 points for a single shot.
So I was going to keep arguing my point about the meltas; I still think 3 meltas are better IF they are within 6 inches of an appropriate target (T7 or T8) as mathhammer says 3 plasma does less damage even if overcharged (I'm assuming the meltas do 4 damage per unsaved wounding hit, as it is a 75% chance to do at least 4 damage on a 2d6-discard-lowest) against both, and with 4 plasma against 3 melta you have to overcharge the plasma to do more damage against both, which puts you at a 66% chance of loosing at least one plasma to overheating.
*BUT* my mathhammer showed that that melta 'death-star' is still only doing 5.3 damage on average to T7 3+ and 4 damage on average against T8 3+ (again, assuming for melta that 1 wounding hit does 4 damage). My mathhammer might be a little off in places, but I think it still demonstrates that this melta raptor unit is not going to do much at all, especially compared with the sheer number of other targets that plasma does better against (basically everything else except
So, a new proposal; do what the others said, take all plasma, and ignore high T targets unless you can bring ALL the plasma to bear on it at once, maybe? 4 units with 3 plasma in each overcharging at rapid fire range do average 17 wnds vs T8, rising to 20 if rerolling all ones. And that jump pack lord would be helpful for re-rolling ones so you can overcharge everything possible with reduced risk (assuming they are within aura of course), as overcharge is S8 and crucially D2. Play to the objectives and pick off the weaker units and bring the leadership debuff to bear where able to; you'll often only need to kill one or two models to start getting decent morale losses happening so get target priority happening and spread those kills around to stop stratagem shenanigans. Even against Orks, getting the leadership debuff onto smaller specialist units that aren't near their warbosses can work, as can simply packing on the kills enough onto a big unit; kill 15 out of 30 and with -7ld that leadership of 15 ain't looking so flash; I just had some success with this although the battle was pure wonderful garagehammer so it's not exactly proof of concept. If you are playing Tyranids or Knights of course it's a little different. Not sure what you'll do there really.
I'm also quite sure that this list will do diddly squat against the top tier tournament lists, but who cares! No one plays Night Lords to hit the top tables. We play them for the fluff and the sick batwing helmets!
the.cobb wrote: Meanwhile in garage-hammerland, life continued much as it had the past few editions, with some players scarcely even aware of the existence of chapter approved.
What does this even mean
It means that some things that should not have been forgotten were lost.
Zing! I was hoping someone would drop this.
Ecdain wrote: I think that's his way of saying he doesn't care about CA, I wonder why he bothered to interject with it but meh, to each their own.
Nah I definitely care and have followed discussion here and elsewhere very closely. But the lads I play with most of the time only just brought the last 2 FAQs up last week. Which is fine as our group lives quite happily in garagehammerland, but I've been lurking here for a while soaking up the good stuff for those times my Night Lords wander out in search of more 'competitive' vistas.
If you are playing against knights and you are running a lot of plasma. Then just overcharge all the plasma and hope you don't roll 1s... lol At least against knights you will definitely be able to deep strike into double tap range because I don't think knight armies will have much screening.
Chaos has no reroll 1 to hit? Don't recall when I played against army with plasma that didn't have those so unless I could snipe character(assuming it wasn't built in ability) they would overheat only 1/36 times. For 3 plasma guys in rapid fire that's 6 turns.
So Chaos got this new Worldgobbler guy. He doesnt seem too fancy, but i noticed that he brings something new to the table.
He allows himself and raptors to reroll ALL hit rolls - not just failed ones.
Now I wonder if there is a way to abuse this?
Rerolling all the dice to produce some extra DTFE attacks? Maybe add in "first among traitors"?
How would I even mathhammer this to see if its worth it?
And are there any other interactions you guys could think of?
Bird of prey wrote: So Chaos got this new Worldgobbler guy. He doesnt seem too fancy, but i noticed that he brings something new to the table.
He allows himself and raptors to reroll ALL hit rolls - not just failed ones.
Now I wonder if there is a way to abuse this?
Rerolling all the dice to produce some extra DTFE attacks? Maybe add in "first among traitors"?
How would I even mathhammer this to see if its worth it?
And are there any other interactions you guys could think of?
Problem is raptors aren't actually that great in melee. Not sure if this is just hit rolls in melee fight phase or all hit rolls period. I suppose if its all hit rolls period, then its decent because it helps raptors shoot better. But I think its just hit rolls in combat. So, then yeah, that alone isn't gonna make raptors suddenly good in melee.
With the rumored points drop in chaos terminators, raptors are even worse now (if their points are the same). Chaos terminators are better in almost every way, but not that much more expensive than raptors after their point drop to 23 points base. I would pony up the additional points any day and deep strike in a squad of terminators over raptors.
I think that maybee assult marines and raptors might get a pricedrop, maybee then they make the cut.
Edit: I honestly think, that Gw would not not lower the price of "specialists" marines like their jumppack versions, especially when now terminators got their well deserved drop.
Secondly raptors get acess to the csm stratagems which are better then sm counterparts which potentially makes them usefull faster again than their jumppack loyalist cousins.
It’s a shame about raptors as I have been looking at 2 squads of 15 or 3 of 10, when looking at the data sheet I was surprised to see they have no access to power weapons apart from the champ, 1 special CCW per 3 I think would help them out, but then cost comes into play.
My plan is to have an army built around fast moving units and deep strike.
Formosa wrote: It’s a shame about raptors as I have been looking at 2 squads of 15 or 3 of 10, when looking at the data sheet I was surprised to see they have no access to power weapons apart from the champ, 1 special CCW per 3 I think would help them out, but then cost comes into play.
My plan is to have an army built around fast moving units and deep strike.
special CCW wouldn't help them at all honestly. Raptors are pretty garbage at CQC no matter how you build them because they suffer from GW's wisdom in giving all basic space marines a single attack base. that is a terrible platform to mount a power weapon on and they almost cannot afford to give up their chain swords for any other type of melee weapon. GW needs to overhaul the basic marine stat line and be willing give cqc troops like Raptors and Assault Marines two base attacks before Raptors would even be worth investing special weapons on. Raptors can really only do two things. They can deep strike plasma bomb and they can fear bomb. Night Lords Nurgle Raptors with Icon of Despair can cause -3 leadership just for being nearby, and a plasma bomb raptor squad is like a cheaper and worse obliterator squad.
As it stands, if you want melee jump troops we have to use Warp Talons. They are a lot better than Raptors at that job, seeing as they have more base attacks, dual claws aren't awful, they come with a 5++, and you can still get re-rolls to charge from allied khorne daemons through locus of rage.
Thanks akaen, this is the first army I will be collecting with 8h In mind rather than a legacy army I already own, so I’m looking for a different play style, normally I run mechanised forces, everything in a transport of some kind, for my new chaos I wanted something different, lots of monsters, dreads and assault marines (haven’t bought any since 3rd).
I know it’s not going to be tournament competitive by any stretch of the imagination though.
Only real options would be World Eaters variants (where you get that nice Strategem) or Alpha Legion variants (survivability). With the reroll charge banner you're kinda okay.
Speaking of Worldclaimer; how do you usually run a jump pack chaos lord?
I though about equiping my Khorne lord with a pair of claws and give him a supportive relic such as the Brass Collar and use him to hop between units that need re-rolls and occasionally engage in a counter-charge.
Does anyone use the minimum R&H battalion for 170 points? Is it just a waste of points in a list, even for the 5 CP?
Yes and no, do you run a specific strategy that requires a lot of CP and needs a mass off bodies and would like some indirect fire, go ahead. On competitive level though there is the problem that they contrary to daemons don't synergize well.
Basically, if you need a specific kind unit, (indirect fire, etc.) and or mass cp, feel free to take them, if not, don't bother and take the regular suspects like ahriman, magnus, mortarion etc.
Speaking of Worldclaimer; how do you usually run a jump pack chaos lord?
I though about equiping my Khorne lord with a pair of claws and give him a supportive relic such as the Brass Collar and use him to hop between units that need re-rolls and occasionally engage in a counter-charge.
If you run him specifically khornate you could run him as an AL lord, to get acess to the nice chainsword, and the double fighting stratagem, but that would be it.
Alternatively you could combine him as an IW jump pack metal boy , give him fleshmetal and unholy resistance warlord trait, i imagine a 2 + armor with what equates to basically a 6+fnp aswell as some other goodies could make him rather tanky and surprsingly fast?
BoomWolf wrote: Well, if you REALLY want to farm CP, they can pull off a brigade at 549 points....
Though at that point you have so many bodies on the field you might as well invest at giving them some guns, aaand now you are playing index level IG.
Well actually you play not index lvl guard since A: SV6+ (wet paper armor) vs cardboard flak. B: heavy stubbers. C: chaos spawn. D: d6+2 ld averages out at 5.5 so ehh.
Not to mention that you get away cheaper then IG so there are more pts. to invest in heavy weapons, (mortars everyone?)
Edit: If you really want to invest in heavy weaponry (i suspect mortars mostly) you would exchange the cultists with militia units in order to get access to mortars. Secondly you would expand probably the HWT teams to 6 each with mortars instead of stubbers (or take stubbers for everything and play WW1) 6XMortars would be an additional 30 pts for the troop choices. 3x5 for the command squads wich get mortars so another 15. additional 9 pts for the remaining heavy support teams. to which you add another 24 each so 3x24 = 144pts
so ergo your mortared up brigade now owns 27 mortars and costs now 675 pts.
I mean that is a fairly impressive ammount of indirect fire, granted 24 of these are "just" bs 5+ but that is a s4 hit on average from the "militialike bodies" per mortar team.
If going all in with R&H is it worthwhile sprinkling Enforcers throughout? Their rules in the Imperial Armour index have them like slightly bloodier-minded commissars, but without the character keyword. Not sure if FAQs or chapter approved 2017 have changed them at all though.
the.cobb wrote: If going all in with R&H is it worthwhile sprinkling Enforcers throughout? Their rules in the Imperial Armour index have them like slightly bloodier-minded commissars, but without the character keyword. Not sure if FAQs or chapter approved 2017 have changed them at all though.
Faq gave then the character keyword. Nope ca changed nothing beyond the malefic nerf and the 4 ppm renegade cultists.
Enforcers are only really necessary if you intend to run a mass assult list with the 50 man Mutant blobs.
Militia can compensate morale via vox systems and since you anyways want to run disciples for longrange AT you might pick command squads with command voxes to significantly boost their morale and make enforcers unnecessary.
If chapter approved ups Guardsmen and Cultists to 5ppm, renegade militia may emerge with a niche as 4ppm cheap bodies. I mean who cares about things like "armor" or "accuracy" when the main draw of the unit is to take up space. At the end of the day, this is why people take cultists after all.
It would definitely be nerfed in the next CA, but that goes to the underlying problem of people are just taking these units not for any sort of fighting ability but for the ability to take up space and clog up access to actual god units. So if you can get that for 40 points you do it, and don't care if the unit at 50 points is a marginally better fighting force.
akaean wrote: If chapter approved ups Guardsmen and Cultists to 5ppm, renegade militia may emerge with a niche as 4ppm cheap bodies. I mean who cares about things like "armor" or "accuracy" when the main draw of the unit is to take up space. At the end of the day, this is why people take cultists after all.
It would definitely be nerfed in the next CA, but that goes to the underlying problem of people are just taking these units not for any sort of fighting ability but for the ability to take up space and clog up access to actual god units. So if you can get that for 40 points you do it, and don't care if the unit at 50 points is a marginally better fighting force.
i do care, however i also play mono R&H ergo a nerf for my troops hurts me more then some soup cheap body spam.
Then again soup as a problem and constant fighting of the Symptoms rather then the real issue with soup from GW will just lead to more problems imo.
vaklor4 wrote: Imo brimstone horrors would just be better screening chaff than Renegades still. Cheaper and has a 6++, so AP doesnt matter.
I looked at that, 3x10 brimstones with 2 bloodmasters is 202 points. I don't know if they're any more survivable than mutant rabble or cultists but it does open up my CD codex stratagems. Brimmies just do nothing except wait to die.
slave.entity wrote: Hilariously enough, Locus of Trickery is actually a huge buff for brims if you can get them into combat.
Swapping the bloodmasters for 2 changecasters adds 44 pts to the detachment, granted for some smite flexibility, but I don't think I'll want to keep those HQ near enough to my brimmies for the brimmies to even get the locus.
The TZ locus was fun on my Warp Talons and my Heldrake though, from a DP. It actually worked really well that one game.
I'd much prefer running Tzeentch heralds with them, both for that locus if you're facing melee, but just for the powers too. Gaze of Fates giving you a free reroll each turn and then also getting a smite is so much value for that extra 40ish. Plus, most 'effective' chaff clearing guns use AP to decimate hordes. You really can't do that with daemons. A 6 is a 6 with an invuln save,
CSM got quite a lot of love. I am glad. A hellbrute is even cheaper now. Same goes for a Defiler. This is especially because a lot of our weapon options all went down in cost. A missile launcher, twin lascannon Hellbrute is now barely 120 points total. It used to cost 150 points.
A defiler with scourge and reaper autocannon is now just under 150 points! @_@
Even forgefiends got love. Autocannon Forgefiend is now 148 points. It used to cost 177 points!
Chosen at now at 14 points which is like crazy. They are barely 1 point more than normal troop CSM, but with so much better weapon options and 2 attacks base.
And CSM's cheapest HQ is now the warpsmith. Even with all of his gear, he costs only 60 points.
Combi plasma are the same price as plasma guns - 11. Wow, so ,this means that a chaos termi with combi plasma and power sword is only 28+11+4 = 43 points.
Raptors are now 15 points. Combined with plasma guns at 11, and combi plasma also at 11. A squad of 5 raptors, 2 plasma guns, champ with combi plasma costs just 108 points, not bad for something that can come down from deep strike and pump out 6 plasma shots.
Havoc launchers are now just 6 points! A dakka Rhino is really a thing now, and quite affordable.
Btw, most named HQs went down in price. Kharn used to be 160, and now he is just 120!
And power fists are now 9 points instead of 12. So, if you are running a lot of zerker squads with power fist champs, those got cheaper too. Not to mention Landraiders got about 59 points cheaper.
My only gripe is I have the lord of skulls model. How come his points wasn't adjusted down. When you have a mighty castellan at just 600 points with the firepower it has, and a 4++ save, why should a lord of skulls with less firepower and a 5++ save be more expensive..
Kinda related. Chaos renegade knight with twin gratling and twin icarus autocannon just got cheaper because heavy flamer is now just 14 points while the twin icarus autocanon is now just 20 points. lol
slave.entity wrote: Hilariously enough, Locus of Trickery is actually a huge buff for brims if you can get them into combat.
Swapping the bloodmasters for 2 changecasters adds 44 pts to the detachment, granted for some smite flexibility, but I don't think I'll want to keep those HQ near enough to my brimmies for the brimmies to even get the locus.
The TZ locus was fun on my Warp Talons and my Heldrake though, from a DP. It actually worked really well that one game.
I think it's more a matter of having your tricksy brims be slightly better at tying up any scary beatsticks that fly around back trying to eat your herald.
Ap0k wrote: The big winners are Butcher Cannon (-5pts) and Butcher Array (-20pts) equipped units.
Double Butcher Contemptor is now 138 (down from 163) - Base Contemptor is now 88.
Double Butcher Array Leviathan is now 289 (down from 329)
Double Butcher Decimator will also drop to 140 (down from 150).
This is great but I hope it doesn't come with some stat line nerfs like D2 > D1 or something horrible like that.
Deep strike chaos termis got cheaper too. A plasma sword termi only cost 43 points. So, 5 of them cost 215 points. deep strike that in, cacophny it and you get 20 plasma attacks at double tap range. And then charge into combat (hopefully).
Thats pretty decent for just 215 points. Even if it fails the charge and gets deleted off the board next turn, you only lost 215 points. 20 plasma attacks should be able to delete something worthwhile of 215 points.
But terminators will have to compete with chosen who are now an amazing 14 points. The only problem is we can only deliver them via LR or Rhino. Otherwise, 5 chosen wielding plasma or combi plasma are now just 145 points. And equally, hellbrutes now are cheap enough to be worth considering. A reaper autocannon hellbrute is under 100 points, and a missile launcher lascannon hellbrute is just 120 points. 120 points so that I can fire frenzy it to shoot twice... I would seriously consider taking 3. That's 3 missile launchers and 6 lascannon shots for 360 points. If you activate fire frenzy every turn, thats 4 missile launcher shots and 8 lascannon shots every turn. (And we are talking about elite slots here, this is not heavy support slot!)
slave.entity wrote: VOTLW on the 40-man blob though. Still worth taking them.
The nerf does invalidate that 350+ cultist super spam list though.
Yeah because that will change now will it, because we have free acess to other cheap manpower and CP generation in our codex?
Not to mention that our CSM somehow still are 13 ppm and Chosen are now 14 ppm?
Chaotic 32 will now become a lot more enticing for csm players i guess.
Sooooo.... more defilers now? By my calculations its 147 points for: Scourge, Battle Cannon, RAC, and combi bolter... on a 14 wound, regenerating, demon, which isn't half bad. And if it gets into CC with something big it will hurt it
Something I noticed going through things for my world eaters. Hellforged contemptors are WAY cheaper. Dual chainclaw with 2 ectoplasma blasters is 158 points. For me that's 6 s14 ap-4 dam4 attacks in CC, and 4 s8 ap-2 dam2 shots at 18". I already have one of these, I might see about getting a few more. Big winners of this are Helbrutes of all shapes and sizes.
Ok, just saw another thing. Not sure who else has loved the heck out of the hellforged achilles, but its down over 50 points. Yeah, its now only 400 points. It was good before at 450+, but its a wrecking house at 400.
What do people think of the return of cheap stormbolter/chainsword Chosen? 16 points for 4x boltershots and 3x attacks (plus DFTFA) seems very solid for anti-infantry wetwork. Throw in a couple powerweapons for flavour and put two squads of five in a rhino, dreadclaw, or drill (or even a landraider!) for close range dakka and charging.
If GW is dead set on not doing anything to fix regular CSM, this at least seems like a valid way to get power armoured non-cult marines on the table.
They might even replace my Noisemarines for general purpose chaff-chewing.
The trend continues, each FAQ and CA that gets published makes my army cheaper. These rules changes favor shooty armies by a large margin.
Warp Talons are now 24 ppm with wargear. 3 S4 AP-2 attacks each with rerolls to wound is not bad, would almost be good with a jump pack lord in the vicinity.
So more or less been confirmed no change to faction / legion trait etc.- there was all these "leaks" claiming -1 to hit moved to +1 cover - but looking through all chapter approved reveal no evidence of this?
I feel like it's all too little, too late. The changes won't make CSM competitive with knights, eldar, or the better chaos codices, especially with the alpha legion and cultist nerfs.
Nature's Minister wrote: I feel like it's all too little, too late. The changes won't make CSM competitive with knights, eldar, or the better chaos codices, especially with the alpha legion and cultist nerfs.
orkswubwub wrote: So more or less been confirmed no change to faction / legion trait etc.- there was all these "leaks" claiming -1 to hit moved to +1 cover - but looking through all chapter approved reveal no evidence of this?
No, a lot of other stuff is still in the dark, only the points and a couple other things are floating around. Theres still a lot of other stuff
Also am I brain farting or isn't it impossible to get both a combi bolter and chainsword on chosen? Are we double swapping things?
Double lightning claws means +1 attack.
Pretty sure you can take combi-bolter and chainsword on the Chosen. Not sure there's a reason to take CSM anymore except RoT and the fact they are troops.
Nature's Minister wrote: I feel like it's all too little, too late. The changes won't make CSM competitive with knights, eldar, or the better chaos codices, especially with the alpha legion and cultist nerfs.
There is no alpha legion nerf.
There are however, massiv point drops to daemon engines, brutes and other chaos goodies. also our daemon allies dropped quite a bit.
PM and rubrics seem to be viable at their new costs too.
I'm not saying its the time of chaos, but I'd say we are going to take a step up.
Also am I brain farting or isn't it impossible to get both a combi bolter and chainsword on chosen? Are we double swapping things?
Double lightning claws means +1 attack.
Pretty sure you can take combi-bolter and chainsword on the Chosen. Not sure there's a reason to take CSM anymore except RoT and the fact they are troops.
Warp talons only have 1 attack base. Lightning adds +1. Only way to go to 3 is as world eaters (which isnt a bad idea for them to be)
McGibs wrote: What do people think of the return of cheap stormbolter/chainsword Chosen? 16 points for 4x boltershots and 3x attacks (plus DFTFA) seems very solid for anti-infantry wetwork. Throw in a couple powerweapons for flavour and put two squads of five in a rhino, dreadclaw, or drill (or even a landraider!) for close range dakka and charging.
If GW is dead set on not doing anything to fix regular CSM, this at least seems like a valid way to get power armoured non-cult marines on the table.
They might even replace my Noisemarines for general purpose chaff-chewing.
Could work, TBH... they're weaker Khorne zerkers, but with added shooting. 80 pts isn't bad for 5; the biggest issue is getting them where they wanna go. I'd probably do a 10 man squad in a Rhino.
I don't know.
Sotrmbolters are fun and all, but don't strike me as that great.
I mean, you gotta get close, and you are not exactly durable with a simple marine statline-and even then its not THAT lethal, merely 10 bolters worth-nothing to write home about.
at 75 points you can have 3 spawn crashing into them, and as much as looking down at spawn is a meme-Id probably be more worried about the spawn.
BoomWolf wrote: I don't know.
Sotrmbolters are fun and all, but don't strike me as that great.
I mean, you gotta get close, and you are not exactly durable with a simple marine statline-and even then its not THAT lethal, merely 10 bolters worth-nothing to write home about.
at 75 points you can have 3 spawn crashing into them, and as much as looking down at spawn is a meme-Id probably be more worried about the spawn.
Don Hooson (the dude who won BAO this year) stated his primary reason of taking Blightlords was a ton of stormbolter shots to clear out stuff like Imp guard squads... of course, BLT's deep strike in, and they take quite a bit to kill.
Stormbolters are really good, though. 4 shots does some work
Blightlords...for storm bolters?
That makes zero sense. they are merely a stormbolter per 45 point body, that's not much better than half the normal CSM bolting rate even if they didn't take any specials.
I'm not saying bolters are useless. quantity has a quality of its own-its the platform I'm concerned about. I'm not sure the virtue of a cheap bolter (effectively at 8 points per bolter) overcomes the fact its a 16 point body that is defensively identical to your stand-of-the-mill CSM.
BoomWolf wrote: Blightlords...for storm bolters?
That makes zero sense. they are merely a stormbolter per 45 point body, that's not much better than half the normal CSM bolting rate even if they didn't take any specials.
I'm not saying bolters are useless. quantity has a quality of its own-its the platform I'm concerned about. I'm not sure the virtue of a cheap bolter (effectively at 8 points per bolter) overcomes the fact its a 16 point body that is defensively identical to your stand-of-the-mill CSM.
They also take a lot of punishment, and have an 18” quadruple-tap, and a pretty good uppercut. Right now, they’re as close Terminators get to good, even viable in some lists. Give it a week, and they’ll be 4pts cheaper
McGibs wrote: What do people think of the return of cheap stormbolter/chainsword Chosen? 16 points for 4x boltershots and 3x attacks (plus DFTFA) seems very solid for anti-infantry wetwork. Throw in a couple powerweapons for flavour and put two squads of five in a rhino, dreadclaw, or drill (or even a landraider!) for close range dakka and charging.
If GW is dead set on not doing anything to fix regular CSM, this at least seems like a valid way to get power armoured non-cult marines on the table.
They might even replace my Noisemarines for general purpose chaff-chewing.
Could work, TBH... they're weaker Khorne zerkers, but with added shooting. 80 pts isn't bad for 5; the biggest issue is getting them where they wanna go. I'd probably do a 10 man squad in a Rhino.
Assuming the FW Termite didn't go up in price, that would be the best bet for clearing chaff. 6 man squad with all Chainswords, 5 Combi-Bolters and a Flamer, and you do two of those for a Termite and Deep Strike a Lord of some kind.
It's a shame its max 5 combibolters per squad. Prescience + VOTL + Cacophony would be rediculous amount of bullets.
I was also considering throwing Kharne in with World Eater chosen now that he's an inexpensive blender. Hop out of a drill, fire with full rerolls, and then charge with 4attacks per chosen with more rerolls.
Berserkers are also good, but I find they take care of themselves pretty well. And sometimes you want to shoot something before you charge something else.
Also am I brain farting or isn't it impossible to get both a combi bolter and chainsword on chosen? Are we double swapping things?
Double lightning claws means +1 attack.
Pretty sure you can take combi-bolter and chainsword on the Chosen. Not sure there's a reason to take CSM anymore except RoT and the fact they are troops.
Warp talons are 1 attack base... So thats 2 with the pair, thats why they fething suck.
And I've read and reread the chosen entry 5 times, you cannot take a chainsword and a combi, and further more you can only take 5 combis using the special weapons slots and the champion. It says you can trade the bolter for a chainsword, then later it says you can swap the bolter for a special so no way to take a chain sword and a bolter.
Maybe it's using the index, I tossed mine a while back since I figured using it to build new squads would only lead to useless models down the road.
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BoomWolf wrote: Exactly-but its not the storm bolters that is the selling point.
Its DSing, being though as nails, and hitting FAR harder in CC.
They also relied on cloud of flies not to die which should tell you all you need to know. When blightlords need to rely on not being shot to survive you know terminators are in a bad place. If I recall nobody took DE to this years BAO or else that unit would have never done it's job due to agents of vect.
I never really bothered with them in the past. They seem decent now. The biggest issue I'd say they have is the rule of 3. Your only going to run small squads but you can't really do MSU that great when your maxed at 3. Seems like bikes would be better if your after bolter shots. Trouble I have with the combi bolter load out also is looking at things like quad HB's, they fill the same roll but are way more durable and easier to use. Plus your basically just making poor mans noise marines.
I think we just made a side step with this CA. Cultists still the most viable infantry and with all the walkers going down in price your basically at square one after the cultist price hike. We definitely got a few more points to play with, but so did everyone else.
I never really bothered with them in the past. They seem decent now. The biggest issue I'd say they have is the rule of 3. Your only going to run small squads but you can't really do MSU that great when your maxed at 3. Seems like bikes would be better if your after bolter shots. Trouble I have with the combi bolter load out also is looking at things like quad HB's, they fill the same roll but are way more durable and easier to use. Plus your basically just making poor mans noise marines.
I think we just made a side step with this CA. Cultists still the most viable infantry and with all the walkers going down in price your basically at square one after the cultist price hike. We definitely got a few more points to play with, but so did everyone else.
Quoting the relevant part of the FAQ regarding Chosen:
Spoiler:
Page 136 – Chosen, Wargear Options
Change this unit’s wargear options to read:
‘• Any Chosen may take one item from the Melee
Weapons list.
• Up to four Chosen may choose one of the
following options:
• Replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
• Replace his boltgun with one item from the Combiweapons
or Special Weapons lists.
• Replace his boltgun and bolt pistol with a
lightning claw.
• An additional Chosen may replace his boltgun
with one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy
Weapons lists.
• The Chosen Champion may either take one item from
the Melee Weapons list, or replace his boltgun and
bolt pistol with items from the Champion Equipment list.
• One model may take a Chaos Icon (pg 153).’
I agree with the comparison of Chosen versus Heavy Bolter havocs that you draw, the Heavy Bolter fulfills the shooting role *better* than the combi-bolter. I guess the Chosen with combi-bolters fill in a more versatile close range roll for clearing chaff. They're capable of moving and firing to full effect so they're better for taking objectives in no-mans land, and they can generate quite a few attacks in close combat, so they're a bit more versatile if charged or if they see an opportunity to charge something that would benefit from lots of 0-ap attacks. I don't think they're ever going to be an "auto-include", but the above change and the points drop certainly makes them an appealing addition the Elites roster rather than being a garbage unit passed over for more Berzerkers or something else...
Heck you could give them all chain-axes for one point for a real jack of all trades, master of none unit. Amusingly, I DID have a unit modelled up with bolters/chain axes to use as my Khorneate Chosen in my Word Bearers army, but I've since ripped off the bolter arms to replace with Chainswords to use as Berzerkers... Oh well!
They did this because it made some of the only official chosen models illegal lol
So for 1pt, chosen get +2 attacks over a CSM ?
and +1 leadership and ofc better weapon options.
Only thing you loose is usefulness of being a troops slot for filling out a detachment and ofc objective grabbing but cultists are still what you use for all this so meh.
All my lists got like 150pts cheapter... thing is 'every' army got a lot of pts drops so you'll be facing more stuff so again... kinda meh
I was having difficulty choosing between butcher leviathan or butcher contemptor. What are people's thoughts post point drops? The butcher array has dropped massively but leviathan status the same. I think the contemptor might be easier to squeeze into more lists as cheaper and it's an elite rather than heavy.
The leviathan looks cooler tho which is a factor...
on a thread note i started this one and unlike other tac threads we (well I, shame on me) don't update the first post with a decent unit summary etc
would anyone be up for it? if so i'll update the first post and also maybe i might change the thread name to chaos space marines since thats really what is mainly discussed in the thread... ?
Latro_ wrote: on a thread note i started this one and unlike other tac threads we (well I, shame on me) don't update the first post with a decent unit summary etc
would anyone be up for it? if so i'll update the first post and also maybe i might change the thread name to chaos space marines since thats really what is mainly discussed in the thread... ?
I can do it. Expect a new tactics thread soon-soon as I can grab my CSM codex.
Latro_ wrote: on a thread note i started this one and unlike other tac threads we (well I, shame on me) don't update the first post with a decent unit summary etc
would anyone be up for it? if so i'll update the first post and also maybe i might change the thread name to chaos space marines since thats really what is mainly discussed in the thread... ?
I can do it. Expect a new tactics thread soon-soon as I can grab my CSM codex.
A new thread? But we’re almost half way to 420 pages!
, 
Needless to say, the sisters unit was wiped out.
*BUT* 
