lindsay40k wrote: We do have modest anti-horde psychic powers. Like, kill a sixth of a unit stuff.
Death Guard buff guys?
Problem is that a lot of the time the 'horde' are multiple MSU, so doing 1/6 of a 10 man unit isn't great. Though if the enemy uses full size squads it could be better, but they usually only run those if they have something like tide of traitors, which makes the damage a waste.
Yeh, I think it would have to be death guard. The one with the 2D6 flamethrower would be pretty deadly. It's a shame that death guard relies on rhinos so much. I've never been a fan of metal bawkses, always prefer having real units on the table (infiltrate/deepstrike/jetpacks/bikes).
Might have to think on it though. If I can come up with a DG detachment that can take the place of my Daemons one.
I may have come up with a detachment that works... but there's a couple ways of doing it (for me, that is).
Instead of taking a DG detachment (which would require 3 units of cultists or marines to make up a battallion, which I need for the 5cp), I can take a Nurgle detachment.
7 Marines and 3 Blightspawn in a Rhino. This obviously goes along with an alpha legion detachment for other threats and at least one more Rhino I expect.
Thing is, this means losing access to DG stratagems, and the DG legion trait. Not sure if this is a big deal or not, as i'd still have CSM stratagems from the Alpha Legion detachment.
Still a draft though. There is also an option of taking the Nurglings in a pure Daemons detachment, and just taking the Blightspawn in a Vanguard detachment. Might be the better idea.
Rhino (Maybe with 7 Plague Marines... but maybe just the Blightspawn)
Daemons Battallion Poxbringer
Poxbringer
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
3 Nurglings
If I -include- the 7 Plagues as a bodyguard in the Rhino, it adds another 185 points to that egg basket... not sure if it's worth it. BUT if I do include those, then this all adds up to 1540 points.
Which gives mes almost 500 points to add things to my Alpha Legion detachment.
Not sure... this might be a list I keep.
Edit: Or, I drop the plagues, and use those points on other threats. I think 3D6 autohits, at strength 2D6, -3, D3, is a pretty nasty threat all on its own. Which leaves me 650 points for Alpha Legion.
Edit 2: Added an Obliterator squad to the AL list. Brings me up to 1549 points.
Edit 3: Hmm. Mathhammer again. That DG unit of a rhino and 3 blight spawn would be about 300 points. But if I compare 2x blightspawn vs 5x tzeentch flamers (adds up to about 150 PST each), the flamers are roughly equal vs vehicles and much much better vs hordes. Seems the blightspawn isn’t worth the investment as a replacement.
More mathhammer, in case anyone was interested. As I also realised that I had forgotten the Grenades the Blightspawns carry. But turns out they don't make much difference.
So for 2x Blightspawn vs 5x Flamers, and having both the blightspawn throwing their special 1-shot deaths heads -
Flamer vs GEQ = 11.3 dead
Blightspawn vs GEQ = 5.1 dead
Flamer vs MEQ = 5.1 dead
Blightspawn vs MEQ = 2 dead
Flamer vs VEQ = 3.4 Damage
Blightspawn vs VEQ = 3.4 Damage
So even against their prime target, the Blightspawn only breaks even. And to get to their prime target, they require an additional 85pts in Rhino, where the Flamers can deepstrike (or just fly 12" a turn). So I could add 2 more Flamers to the unit to really match points. Or add a single Exalted Flamer.
So... I might be missing something. I mean, the Blightspawns will be fairly tough to kill with their FnP and T5/W4. But if the Rhino gets popped they're walking a slow 5".
I think that the Blightspawn might be more of a replacement for Obliterators (as far as damage/targets goes).
What do folks think of the hellforged Deredeo dreads?
I think they are pretty solid upon taking another glance at them. I mean they cost a bit more then helverin but with more gun and better BS and invulvs to boot. Plus the better stat line. I have been liking the butcher canon array and greater havoc launcher load out. They have the added boost of turning on the Heliptical targeting array when you face dark eldar. Basically your still hitting venoms and fliers on 2's rerolling 1's near a lord.
I was planning on fielding 3 helverins and 3 armigers in a list but then realized I may just be better off running 3 defilers and 3 of those deredeos. It's slightly more expensive but it has more wounds and durability and quite a bit more punch. I plan on running alpha legion and a dark apsotle and exalted champion for the defilers. in fact here is my list:
Spearhead (alpha legion)
-chaos lord
-3x Defilers with twin HB and scourge
-3x Deredeos with twin HB, butcher array, greater HL Battalion (alpha legion)
-Dark Apostle
-Exalted Champion
-3x10 cultists
-9 Berserkers with power fist
-9 Berserkers with power fist
Auxillary Detachment
-7Nurgling bases
2K
Obviously the Nurglings deploy first in a picket to save space for the forward operatives (Berserkers and DAEC) While the CL hangs back with the Deredeos and cultists are there to screen and eat table space between the back field and the infiltrators, can also infiltrate them where beneficial. Defilers move and advance first turn. Haven't tested the list yet, I am i nthe middle of building a khorne themed army and I just built 6 mini lord of skull conversions to represent all the walkers. Waiting on some final bits. I think it will work well, still gets crushed to Imperial soup with a Castellan but I really see no point in building verse that lol.
Anyway, thoughts and discussion welcome, off to work for now. Thanks!
I'm starting to think what's the point in close combat? Feels like I can wreck some things in the initial combat but you leave yourself so vulnerable I don't really see the advantage.
Why is it not better to just blast stuff from distance?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really want to build a close combat CSM list but it just seems so inefficient.
Don't get me wrong it will be fun, but I can't see it being effective
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm starting to think what's the point in close combat? Feels like I can wreck some things in the initial combat but you leave yourself so vulnerable I don't really see the advantage.
Why is it not better to just blast stuff from distance?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really want to build a close combat CSM list but it just seems so inefficient.
Don't get me wrong it will be fun, but I can't see it being effective
In what way are you saying they're vulnerable?
Theyre more vulnerable to being counter-attacked yes, but then so is the enemy you're fighting. Thats why you use your good melee guys against their bad melee guys (ideally, anyway).
I mean, Berzerkers can do 6 S4 attacks per person in melee. You'd need to be using... I mean even Combi-Bolters only get to 4 attacks, and to get 10 combi-bolters in a unit you'd need to be taking terminators.
Also if they're in combat they're safer than if they're out in the open, as the enemy can't shoot them. Unless they choose to fall back their unit, but then that unit gives up all it's shooting and melee for a turn, which might be worth it by itself.
Saying all that though, this edition does seem to lean more towards shooting. But I think melee is still possible of doing work.
Brought the following units:
Greater Brass Scorprion of Khorne
Bezerkers in a Rhino with Exalted Champ
Nurglings
Bloodmaster with Crimson Crown
Chaos decimators with x2 soulburners
--
Just wanted to call out the Brass Scorpion was shockingly useful. Not very points efficient but an amazing distraction. Killed Mortarion in close combat.
Decimators were a risky pick, but super worth it. After some positioning, all of them got to shoot Magnus and burst him from full down to 7 wounds.
Nurglings are not csm, but the best defensive unit I've encountered yet.
Beserkers are, pound for pound my favorite cc unit. Especially with an exalted champ/dark apostle. There is no skull to big.
I'm going to be building out a pure khorne list-- and plans on trying Khorne Lord of Skulls instead of a Brass scorpion. Will let people know how it goes.
Always nice to see a report of the Brass Scorpion. Such a cool model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question for the audience -
Some of you may remember that I had been adding a Hellforged Predator with Flamestorm Cannon (+ 2x Heavy Flamers) to my list, because I wanted a big nasty monster tank with giant flamers for... well, because it's cool.
However I have now considered instead adding a small outrider detachment from Renegades, with a couple cheapo options and (of course) a Hellhound.
The Predator comes out to 185 points. This gives 4D6 S5 flamer hits at 8" range, with half of them being Damage 2 instead of 1. Isn't bad, but is short ranged. Comes with some melee combat power though, and an occasional heal.
The Hellhound + Heavy Flamer is 120 points, and comes with 2D6 S6 flamer attacks at 16", and 1D6 S5 at 8". So mostly you'd stay at 16" range, but you have some more flames against anyone wanting to charge it. No melee ability to speak of, but explodes very easily which might be nice.
They seem fairly comparable, with the Predator being maybe better because of the extra abilities... but it's also 50% more expensive. A cheap outrider with a Commander, Hellhound and 2x Spawn, is 220 points, and that doesn't seem too bad. Especially as I could go with 2x Hellhounds, or add a couple scout sentinels.
So yeh, just wondered on thoughts. The Flamestorm Predator seems not to get much love on the blood angel pages, but the Hellhound seems to be well-liked.
Brought the following units:
Greater Brass Scorprion of Khorne
Bezerkers in a Rhino with Exalted Champ
Nurglings
Bloodmaster with Crimson Crown
Chaos decimators with x2 soulburners
--
Just wanted to call out the Brass Scorpion was shockingly useful. Not very points efficient but an amazing distraction. Killed Mortarion in close combat.
Decimators were a risky pick, but super worth it. After some positioning, all of them got to shoot Magnus and burst him from full down to 7 wounds.
Nurglings are not csm, but the best defensive unit I've encountered yet.
Beserkers are, pound for pound my favorite cc unit. Especially with an exalted champ/dark apostle. There is no skull to big.
I'm going to be building out a pure khorne list-- and plans on trying Khorne Lord of Skulls instead of a Brass scorpion. Will let people know how it goes.
Thanks, this was what I was interested. I also have a Khorne lord of skulls, which is why I built the 6 mini lord of skulls to use as counts as. I also am using blood warriors to convert berserkers. I have two unbuilt decimators I was planning on giving the soul burner petard but hadn't gotten around to it since it is so expensive for its durability, good to hear it does work if you position it right.
Still hoping for some feedback in regard to the Helforged Deredeo dread. The greater havoc launcher seems very useful in the current meta.
Still hoping for some feedback in regard to the Helforged Deredeo dread. The greater havoc launcher seems very useful in the current meta.
As far as I'm aware, all of the Dreads are meant to be pretty good.
Leviathan is just an amazing all-rounder, and tough to kill. Big and nasty and expensive.
Deredeo is a middle-ground option, but based on shooty builds only. If you need shooty+melee, go for leviathan or contemptor. If you're happy with just shooty then Deredeo is good.
Contemptor is the cheap option. Not that it's that cheap, but it's cheap-er.
All of them are good options though. If you have the points the Leviathan is probably the best, as you can fit two butcher arrays on one platform. The deredeo can only take one.
As always its a price/performance equation. But I think ALL of these are worth their points costs right now, so it just depends on how many points you have spare in your list.
On the charge this squad gets a total of:
4 S10 Ap-4 Dd3
21 S6 Ap-1 D1
8 S5 D1
Then, your opponent has the option to spend CP to interrupt combat. If they don't you swing again.
Grand total of:
8 S10 Ap-4 Dd3
42 S6 Ap-1 D1
16 S5 D1
Here are some averages, votlw represented in ()
T7 3+/4++ = 9 (12) dmg T8 3+ = 11 (15) dmg T5 3+/4++ = 14 (18) dmg T4 3+/5++ = 16 (19) dmg
That's wiping squads of any infantry in the game, dealing 15 wounds to a Knight, and 12 to a Primarch.
If your squad didn't suffer too badly from the counter attack: 3cp and the unit can fight a third time. You've just killed nearly any unit in the game.
Also, pair these guys up with an exalted champion, and ideally a dark apostle. With all those buffs they could achieve:
T8 2+/3++ = 21 dmg
That is insane. This squad costs 147 points. 10 more for the ability to reroll the charge.
You will be hard pressed to find a shooting unit that gives that much potential return on investment for the points, while being able to really scale up and down based on how you play. Grab a rhino, 8 zerkers and an exalted champion. As long as you play it smart you will not be disappointed.
I have done similar averages with the FW dreadnoughts. My conclusions are leviathans are statistically best with twin butcher canon arrays, and chaos decimators best with twin soulburners.
That being said the decimators are immensely vulnerable to long and mid range shooting armies (guard, tau, even tyranids) 3 of them with soulburners can dish out almost enough mortal wounds to kill a primarch in 1 turn. But they are super vulnerable. Leviathans would be my go to for allcomers lists, as they are amazingly tough units, and have very high damage output.
My advice is if you're going to take decimators, run some major threat saturation.
I just find most the time with cc I'm trading units. My berserkers will tear through a unit, then they're left exposed. If there is anything left it's so depleted the opponent will happily fall back so they can shoot them.
I'm struggling to get a balance of declaring a big enough unit/multiple units but then not losing half of my berserkers to overwatch. I just find it's so situational. It is fun though...
Something’s just occurred to me re my mathhammer on two units of Warp Talons having like 80% odds on one of them charging from DS with a Locus of Rage and a re-roll
Same applies to two units of 10 Berzerkers in a KAC
If either connects and has a fistchamp, it’s six S10 punches. Food for thought
Here's another one to add to my "which would you choose" questions:
5x Chosen, 5x Plasma Guns, Rhino = 230 points
2x Squads of 5 Renegades Marauders (2 Plasma Guns, 2 Shotguns, Chief with Plasma Pistol and Powerfist), Chimera = 252 points.
Same number of plasma shots at rapid fire range, but marauders have 1 less shots at 24" because of the pistols. But the marauders have 4 powerfist attacks too, and 4 shotguns (for whatever they're worth). Also they have some ablative wounds, where the chosen would start losing plasma guns immediately.
Seriously considering a Renegades vanguard, as I'm reading Legion and I'm seeing how using elite 'normal' human operatives is a pretty fluffy option. (Basically how people normally use Cultists for Alpha, but more so).
Abaddon303 wrote: I just find most the time with cc I'm trading units. My berserkers will tear through a unit, then they're left exposed. If there is anything left it's so depleted the opponent will happily fall back so they can shoot them.
I'm struggling to get a balance of declaring a big enough unit/multiple units but then not losing half of my berserkers to overwatch. I just find it's so situational. It is fun though...
I run into that problem a lot too. I've started saving my berzerkers until turn 3ish to start fighting because of it, and I face a lot of reserve threats that my berzerkers are well equipped to handle.
When I do throw my berzerkers forward, I try to tag as many things as possible on the same turn. Turn 2 my drake, prince, 2 rhinos (if alive), 1-3 brutes, and maybe some cultists can usually get in on the action if i haven't been boxed in by shooting or flanks.
I guess regardless of the attacking ability of berserkers, they are at the end of the day just space marines and therefore they die quickly when exposed. It's so situational to try to end your turn with them still in combat and safe from being eviscerated.
I think I might start taking them in units of 5. Anything more seems generally like overkill, I'm starting to think it might actually be beneficial to leave a couple of models alive in the unit you charge
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess regardless of the attacking ability of berserkers, they are at the end of the day just space marines and therefore they die quickly when exposed. It's so situational to try to end your turn with them still in combat and safe from being eviscerated.
I think I might start taking them in units of 5. Anything more seems generally like overkill, I'm starting to think it might actually be beneficial to leave a couple of models alive in the unit you charge
It's hard to leave much alive when you use Khorne Berzerkers. The only way to keep a unit like that alive is "wrap tricks" but those don't work unless the enemy unit has models in position for you to trap on 3 sides (believe me, those will be the first ones pulled).
Easiest way to envelope with zerks is holding them back. Only get one or two actually making attacks, then consolidate around them. Buuut then you lose quite a few to return blows.
Niiru wrote: How many CPs do people find is a good number to have at 2000?
10+ is what I feel like the minimum is. 1 battalion plus a supreme command or spearhead and then the battle forged bonus. I usually go for more than that though, at least 2 battalions, because I feel chaos is very dependent on stratagems so I aim for 15+.
Niiru wrote: How many CPs do people find is a good number to have at 2000?
Primortus is right, aim for 10+. My current Khorne Daemonkin force has 18CP (but that is quickly reduced to 8CP after I put all of my Daemons in DS), other lists I run are around 13+CP; a min battalion is too easy to fit into a Chaos army for anyone to be running less than 10CP.
Niiru wrote: How many CPs do people find is a good number to have at 2000?
10+ is what I feel like the minimum is. 1 battalion plus a supreme command or spearhead and then the battle forged bonus. I usually go for more than that though, at least 2 battalions, because I feel chaos is very dependent on stratagems so I aim for 15+.
You say 10+, but then say "battallion plus supreme command plus battleforged"... which only adds up to 9?
Only way I get above 10 is to take 2 battallions (which is usually most of my points) getting me to 13 with battleforged.
How are you getting 15+? That's 2x battallion plus at least 2 more of the supreme command or outrider type ones, and that only -just- gets you to 15?
Unless there's been another update to the CP bonuses that I missed. I only remember the ones for battallion and brigade being increased.
lindsay40k wrote: 2K points and you can’t afford six minimum units of Cultists, Brimstones, or Nurglings? Fewer, if you’re going with a horde or two?
Well as Alpha legion I'd generally take at least 1 big unit of 30+ cultists. So for a battallion that ends up being 50 cultists (200pts). I also have a battallion of Daemons with 3x3 Nurglings (so 162pts). Plus the 4 HQ's that requires, and assuming you actually take decent HQ's and not the cheapest options... probably hits a total of about 850pts.
Which isn't expensive, but other than the HQ's most of those models aren't going to do an awful lot.
But also, that ends up at 13CP. Which I said I could manage at most. But people are saying they get 10+ CP using the 1CP detachments... and I don't see how they're managing it. And 15+CP...
I mean maybe people are taking 3 battallions, I know I'm possibly in a minority when I say that painting 90 cultists isn't of much interest to me. I only wanted 30 at most, but its looking like I need to have a minimum of 50 in order to get the battallion.
Unless I only run 3x10 squads, and don't have an infiltrated big unit.
Which is why I asked the question. If 10 is enough, then I could run one battallion and a couple of Vanguards. If most people are running 15+, then I would have to decide if running the extra cultists is worth it.
I have the points, obviously, but I would rather spend them on say... daemon engines.
Yeh, I have to say, despite the fluffiest options being to take cultists and infiltrate them forward, I prefer the idea of using Nurglings in that role. Infiltrating as standard is just very fitting, and saves on the CP.
I haven't yet decided for sure what my conversion on them will be, but I'm pretty sure they're going to end up being something like... a 50mm base, with a team of 3 stealthy special-ops cultists on it. Or something. Maybe convert the nurglings into little transforming infiltration robots.
I don't think they're a full replacement for cultists though, as I don't think nurglings are likely to actually kill anything lol.
Yeh, I have to say, despite the fluffiest options being to take cultists and infiltrate them forward, I prefer the idea of using Nurglings in that role. Infiltrating as standard is just very fitting, and saves on the CP.
I haven't yet decided for sure what my conversion on them will be, but I'm pretty sure they're going to end up being something like... a 50mm base, with a team of 3 stealthy special-ops cultists on it. Or something. Maybe convert the nurglings into little transforming infiltration robots.
I don't think they're a full replacement for cultists though, as I don't think nurglings are likely to actually kill anything lol.
My anecdote ALMOST says otherwise! I once had a Daemon Prince swing at a tank-did 2 wounds.
Nurglings swung, a min squad of three-did 2 wounds as well.
In other words, don't discount the little buggers. While they might not do MUCH damage, every bit helps. And honestly, if you can tie up a Leman Russ or something with them, they've done their job amply.
Yeh, I have to say, despite the fluffiest options being to take cultists and infiltrate them forward, I prefer the idea of using Nurglings in that role. Infiltrating as standard is just very fitting, and saves on the CP.
I haven't yet decided for sure what my conversion on them will be, but I'm pretty sure they're going to end up being something like... a 50mm base, with a team of 3 stealthy special-ops cultists on it. Or something. Maybe convert the nurglings into little transforming infiltration robots.
I don't think they're a full replacement for cultists though, as I don't think nurglings are likely to actually kill anything lol.
My anecdote ALMOST says otherwise! I once had a Daemon Prince swing at a tank-did 2 wounds.
Nurglings swung, a min squad of three-did 2 wounds as well.
In other words, don't discount the little buggers. While they might not do MUCH damage, every bit helps. And honestly, if you can tie up a Leman Russ or something with them, they've done their job amply.
Agreed, which is why I'm taking 3 units. They'll tie up a unit (or 3), or get in the way, or maybe scratch off some wounds here and there. At the very least, they'll prevent my characters being targetted for a turn or two. If that's all they do, it's still good enough!
Do most people use the full pile of nurgling models or split them up? How do people who use less nurglings per base make the same volume of body to not model for advantage?
Your note of modeling nurglings stealthy inspired me to do something like the "Not-Ork, Spesh Marens" orks i saw before.
I'm trying to get my friend to put nurglings in place of his grey knight heads with some robo control levers at the collar.
Dactylartha wrote: Do most people use the full pile of nurgling models or split them up? How do people who use less nurglings per base make the same volume of body to not model for advantage?
Your note of modeling nurglings stealthy inspired me to do something like the "Not-Ork, Spesh Marens" orks i saw before.
I'm trying to get my friend to put nurglings in place of his grey knight heads with some robo control levers at the collar.
Haha, I like the Ork Kommando conversions myself...
Not yet sure how I'd do my stealthy nurglings though. I'd need to fine suitable-sized models to use, so probably tiny robots or something.
Edit: Ooh... I could dig out some Servo-Skulls. 3 or 4 to a base, add some tendrils...
I think it's going to be a toss up between servo-skulls in a trio (kind of like Magneton for the pokemon lovers out there), or going more of a wraith/ghost style cloaked and spectral figures. I think the skulls might work better though...
Here's another one to add to my "which would you choose" questions:
5x Chosen, 5x Plasma Guns, Rhino = 230 points
2x Squads of 5 Renegades Marauders (2 Plasma Guns, 2 Shotguns, Chief with Plasma Pistol and Powerfist), Chimera = 252 points.
Same number of plasma shots at rapid fire range, but marauders have 1 less shots at 24" because of the pistols. But the marauders have 4 powerfist attacks too, and 4 shotguns (for whatever they're worth). Also they have some ablative wounds, where the chosen would start losing plasma guns immediately.
Seriously considering a Renegades vanguard, as I'm reading Legion and I'm seeing how using elite 'normal' human operatives is a pretty fluffy option. (Basically how people normally use Cultists for Alpha, but more so).
As someone that uses Marauders extensively, (since it is literally one of the few units i have left worth their salt), i'd say i'd prefer the marauders if you would take A) Autoguns/Lasguns instead B) ge rid of the plasma pistols and energy fists and C) field another marauder squad with sniperrifles.
I reccomend you Autoguns since they are more versatile, but shotguns are also good. Take stalker though since the -1 to hit ALWAYS applies. There is also no reason for melee.
Morale goes in favour of the Marauders since "in it for the money" is superior to any CSM moral buff except cold and bitter. Chieftan has also more W, making a 5 man squads total up to 6 W.
You also don't have to worry about your renegade commander having to be the warlord for the covenant, since marauders are mercs anyways and don't get covenants.
If the question is between a Chimera or a rhino, always chose the chimera, from lasgun arrays to the heavier weaponry it can field it is generally more usefull (and durable).
Stratagem wise of course the Chosen have the edge but why field them anyways when havocs can get plasma guns too and are cheaper and the leader of them can get a combi plasma anyways?
However consider that through the vanguard you now have access to other goodies, such as R&H Heavy weapons squads (6 mortars, even at the terrible BS they have, is nothing to sneeze at especcially for 48 pts.), or leman russes, or the unmovable 51 man blob made of mutants and an enforcer, Ogryin berserkers are also a decent unit if you can guarantee their arrival at your terms (Valkyries).
Niiru wrote:Well as Alpha legion I'd generally take at least 1 big unit of 30+ cultists. So for a battallion that ends up being 50 cultists (200pts). I also have a battallion of Daemons with 3x3 Nurglings (so 162pts). Plus the 4 HQ's that requires, and assuming you actually take decent HQ's and not the cheapest options... probably hits a total of about 850pts.
Which isn't expensive, but other than the HQ's most of those models aren't going to do an awful lot.
But also, that ends up at 13CP. Which I said I could manage at most. But people are saying they get 10+ CP using the 1CP detachments... and I don't see how they're managing it. And 15+CP...
I mean maybe people are taking 3 battallions, I know I'm possibly in a minority when I say that painting 90 cultists isn't of much interest to me. I only wanted 30 at most, but its looking like I need to have a minimum of 50 in order to get the battallion.
Unless I only run 3x10 squads, and don't have an infiltrated big unit.
Which is why I asked the question. If 10 is enough, then I could run one battallion and a couple of Vanguards. If most people are running 15+, then I would have to decide if running the extra cultists is worth it.
I have the points, obviously, but I would rather spend them on say... daemon engines.
I too can't be arsed painting a ton of models (that's why a get a friend to paint them cheap). I run a battalion of min units of cultists, a battalion of Khorne Daemons with some Bloodletter bombs and I run a battalion of min Berzerker units with some terminators on the side (the terminators are a whopping 300pts though, so I could probably drop them for something more usefull... But I won't); that gives me 18CP, 8 of which I spend to throw the Daemons into Deepstrike. It's a nice list, very good for board control.
Dactylartha wrote:Do most people use the full pile of nurgling models or split them up? How do people who use less nurglings per base make the same volume of body to not model for advantage?
Your note of modeling nurglings stealthy inspired me to do something like the "Not-Ork, Spesh Marens" orks i saw before.
I'm trying to get my friend to put nurglings in place of his grey knight heads with some robo control levers at the collar.
If you really wanted to be stealthy with them, you could always use the old metal Nurgling models that have a tiny profile.
As someone that uses Marauders extensively, (since it is literally one of the few units i have left worth their salt), i'd say i'd prefer the marauders if you would take A) Autoguns/Lasguns instead B) ge rid of the plasma pistols and energy fists and C) field another marauder squad with sniperrifles.
Why get rid of the plasma pistols and power fists? If they pop out 12" away from an enemy (which they would need to be) then the pistols are just extra plasma shots (otherwise they'd be shooting autoguns which are worthless). And the Power Fists mean they can charge in and actually do some damage with their multiple attacks.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but as they get fists and pistols cheaper than other armies, it seemed like a useful upgrade.
I reccomend you Autoguns since they are more versatile, but shotguns are also good. Take stalker though since the -1 to hit ALWAYS applies. There is also no reason for melee.
Yeh they were all going to be stalker, to match up with the Alpha Legion theme.
Morale goes in favour of the Marauders since "in it for the money" is superior to any CSM moral buff except cold and bitter. Chieftan has also more W, making a 5 man squads total up to 6 W.
You also don't have to worry about your renegade commander having to be the warlord for the covenant, since marauders are mercs anyways and don't get covenants.
Because of having to fill out a vanguard, the detachment actually has a Commander and an Enforcer, both with Plasma Pistol / Power Fist, all in the same chimera. So there would be 12 Plasma shots and 8 power fist attacks coming out of it. Though I could remove the fists, but that would then mean the enemy would just charge them and then destroy them as they're pretty weak in combat without fists.
If the question is between a Chimera or a rhino, always chose the chimera, from lasgun arrays to the heavier weaponry it can field it is generally more usefull (and durable).
No, the transport wasn't part of the question really, it's only different because CSM only has the Rhino and Renegades only have the Chimera. Wasn't a choice either way.
MHF I'm not looking for small profile nurglings, i just want some comical posed nurglings that are about the same size. It'll be long-term project though.
As someone that uses Marauders extensively, (since it is literally one of the few units i have left worth their salt), i'd say i'd prefer the marauders if you would take A) Autoguns/Lasguns instead B) ge rid of the plasma pistols and energy fists and C) field another marauder squad with sniperrifles.
Why get rid of the plasma pistols and power fists? If they pop out 12" away from an enemy (which they would need to be) then the pistols are just extra plasma shots (otherwise they'd be shooting autoguns which are worthless). And the Power Fists mean they can charge in and actually do some damage with their multiple attacks.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but as they get fists and pistols cheaper than other armies, it seemed like a useful upgrade.
I reccomend you Autoguns since they are more versatile, but shotguns are also good. Take stalker though since the -1 to hit ALWAYS applies. There is also no reason for melee.
Yeh they were all going to be stalker, to match up with the Alpha Legion theme.
Morale goes in favour of the Marauders since "in it for the money" is superior to any CSM moral buff except cold and bitter. Chieftan has also more W, making a 5 man squads total up to 6 W.
You also don't have to worry about your renegade commander having to be the warlord for the covenant, since marauders are mercs anyways and don't get covenants.
Because of having to fill out a vanguard, the detachment actually has a Commander and an Enforcer, both with Plasma Pistol / Power Fist, all in the same chimera. So there would be 12 Plasma shots and 8 power fist attacks coming out of it. Though I could remove the fists, but that would then mean the enemy would just charge them and then destroy them as they're pretty weak in combat without fists.
If the question is between a Chimera or a rhino, always chose the chimera, from lasgun arrays to the heavier weaponry it can field it is generally more usefull (and durable).
No, the transport wasn't part of the question really, it's only different because CSM only has the Rhino and Renegades only have the Chimera. Wasn't a choice either way.
While yes power fists are cheap they are still stuck on a t3 s3 modell which is unboostable strength wise. So waisted points imo since you anyways don't want to go melee with them in order to profit from stalker.
Same goes for the plasma pistol, which is decently cheap but kinda to close for my taste.
If you get rid of both of these you could get another marauder squad barebones or with sniperrifles, which fits the theme aswell as gives you the full vanguard without the need for the barebones enforcer.
Frankly the barebones enforcer itself is a full min squad of marauders in points or even a command squad with a Heavy weapon up to a mortar and he does only one thing, keeping the rabble in line which you don't seem to intend to field.
Even worse he will shoot your marauders if they are to close which hurts since the d3 losses are then guaranteed.
Granted if you intend to field a 50 Mutant blob then ofcourse i'd reccomend him for the psychopath he is, for militia and the elites however he is not worth it.
Edit ;
If you want a melee detterent get the power Maul instead.
Also marauders are shock troops, they won't stay on the field, except the snipers, since their damage is a one time cqc thing.
While yes power fists are cheap they are still stuck on a t3 s3 modell which is unboostable strength wise. So waisted points imo since you anyways don't want to go melee with them in order to profit from stalker.
Same goes for the plasma pistol, which is decently cheap but kinda to close for my taste.
I mean true, it would only make their attacks S6, so as you say later a power maul would be a cheaper alternative. Will do the maths on that one, but I think you're right.
For plasma pistols though, I'm not sure on your thinking. The Plasma Gun guys will want to be at 12" anyway in order to rapid fire (though they do have the option of being at 24" away too, but 12" is literally twice as good). So if they're aiming to be 12" away anyway, the pistols are at their optimal range as well.
Unless you're saying Plasma Marauders should be staying at 24"?
Have actually been considering swapping a couple of the Plasmas for Meltas... but not sure.
If you get rid of both of these you could get another marauder squad barebones or with sniperrifles, which fits the theme aswell as gives you the full vanguard without the need for the barebones enforcer.
Frankly the barebones enforcer itself is a full min squad of marauders in points or even a command squad with a Heavy weapon up to a mortar and he does only one thing, keeping the rabble in line which you don't seem to intend to field.
Even worse he will shoot your marauders if they are to close which hurts since the d3 losses are then guaranteed.
I did consider the snipers, as CSM doesn't have any as standard, but I didn't think that 2x sniper shots per turn was really worth it. That's pretty much 8 shots per game, so 4 actual hits, per turn... so on average zero mortal wounds and only 0.8 dead space marines. Per game. So it seemed like a waste of a unit, when the whole unit can't even snipe a single space marine in a game, let alone actually kill a character (which they will never do).
Also the Enforcer won't kill the Marauders. The enforcer ability only comes into effect when you roll for morale, and the marauders never roll for morale as their own special rule overrides it. So the enforcer is basically just another Commander.
Granted if you intend to field a 50 Mutant blob then ofcourse i'd reccomend him for the psychopath he is, for militia and the elites however he is not worth it.
Edit ;
If you want a melee detterent get the power Maul instead.
Also marauders are shock troops, they won't stay on the field, except the snipers, since their damage is a one time cqc thing.
I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.
The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.
Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.
Not Online!!! wrote: I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.
The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.
Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.
Great advice thanks really liking your responses to this topic!
So do you have the plasma gun mainlines on foot as a gunline?
And when you say Melta 'paratroopers', are you running them in a Valkyrie? I don't think I have the points to add a flyer to this list... but I'd use the chimera instead.
The 35pt sniper squads are a good point too. Might be worth it just for that.
Though triple-mortar heavy weapon teams are 24pts, which ... I mean probably isn't any better lol.
Not Online!!! wrote: I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.
The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.
Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.
Great advice thanks really liking your responses to this topic!
So do you have the plasma gun mainlines on foot as a gunline?
And when you say Melta 'paratroopers', are you running them in a Valkyrie? I don't think I have the points to add a flyer to this list... but I'd use the chimera instead.
The 35pt sniper squads are a good point too. Might be worth it just for that.
Though triple-mortar heavy weapon teams are 24pts, which ... I mean probably isn't any better lol.
Small matches (500-750) they do good walking and kemp bushes with the full 10man.
If you go higher get a bawsk of anykind. (autocannon chimera makes the squad potent at anti light vehicle, flamers for when you want a discount hellhound)
Melta paratroopers are 2x 6 marauders with a plasma pistol and 2 meltas and shotguns in a valkyrie with rocket pods. They strike hard and are somewhat annoying to remove. Chimeras with something like that inside are a tad to easy to stop personally. Leading to much annoyment since a combat range of 12" is really terrible if you are stuck in your deployment Zone. Grav insertion also is really nice for when you need to get to that 6"Mark.
Sniper marauders always get their point back, for me atleast, and also do surprisingly well at finishing off that annoying charachter with his aura.
Why bother with tripple mortars when we get 6 per heavy support squad? IG field fire support, we field grand batteries, now go out there and Shell em!
Not Online!!! wrote: I run 3 diffrent types of marauder squads roughly.
The plasma gun + autoguns stalker mainline, mostly for small scale matches. Shotguns can work also but then you'd want to give out a power weapon to finish off stragglers where the Maul is better since it Hits on 3+ and is cheaper.
The meltas + shotguns +plasma pistol paratroopers for mid to high points matches. Deleting leman russes is always nice. Alternativly consider a flamer in low pts matches since that squad always is close as possible.
Sniper marauder squads 35pts with autoguns, sniperrifles and a Bolter for the chief. The Maingoal of them is not necessarily to generate mortal Wounds but to target buff givers and deal Chip damage whilest also securing your backfield via an anti deepstrike bubble, even the full 10 mans are an cheap option so consider that.
Great advice thanks really liking your responses to this topic!
So do you have the plasma gun mainlines on foot as a gunline?
And when you say Melta 'paratroopers', are you running them in a Valkyrie? I don't think I have the points to add a flyer to this list... but I'd use the chimera instead.
The 35pt sniper squads are a good point too. Might be worth it just for that.
Though triple-mortar heavy weapon teams are 24pts, which ... I mean probably isn't any better lol.
Small matches (500-750) they do good walking and kemp bushes with the full 10man.
If you go higher get a bawsk of anykind. (autocannon chimera makes the squad potent at anti light vehicle, flamers for when you want a discount hellhound)
Melta paratroopers are 2x 6 marauders with a plasma pistol and 2 meltas and shotguns in a valkyrie with rocket pods. They strike hard and are somewhat annoying to remove. Chimeras with something like that inside are a tad to easy to stop personally. Leading to much annoyment since a combat range of 12" is really terrible if you are stuck in your deployment Zone. Grav insertion also is really nice for when you need to get to that 6"Mark.
Sniper marauders always get their point back, for me atleast, and also do surprisingly well at finishing off that annoying charachter with his aura.
Why bother with tripple mortars when we get 6 per heavy support squad? IG field fire support, we field grand batteries, now go out there and Shell em!
I may price up a valkyrie and see...
And haha the triple mortars was a minimum for a single detachment slot, if I was going all out on mortars it would be at least 9 (3x3 for a spearhead). Not sure I'll ever actually do that though.
My main interest in renegades was to make a kind of... chaos mercenary elite strike team kind of a unit. Pretty much like the Jokers in the Legion book (though my idea for having a kill team like this happened before I started reading the book, but I'm now near the end and it's made me want one even more haha).
Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...
Edit:
Hmm, I'm sure the Valkyrie is always the better option, but part of me is wishing the Arvus Lighter was a better choice. Simply because it's a cross between a drop-pod and a shuttle.
Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...
Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....
The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.
Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?
Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...
Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....
The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.
Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?
Before I go too far down this rabbit hole of taking a renegades detachments for plasma/melta marauders, I am going to first see if there's a better options with csm or daemons.
Can't think of anything from daemons.
Csm would be either raptors (3 plasma per unit, can get 2 units of 5 for less than the total cost of a renegades detachment, as they don't need a transport), or chosen/havocs (can get 2 units filled with special weapons, if I use forward operatives to get them forward so they don't need a vehicle. Means they're vulnerable if I don't get first turn though).
Valkyrie renegades would be the most expensive option, but means less vulnerable to losing first turn, and still capable of a first turn attack as its not affected by the deepstrike fan like the raptors would be. Also means an extra vehicle on the table, whether it's chimera/arvus/Valkyrie. But I'd only have the one flyer so it will be vulnerable.
Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...
Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....
The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.
Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?
Before I go too far down this rabbit hole of taking a renegades detachments for plasma/melta marauders, I am going to first see if there's a better options with csm or daemons.
Can't think of anything from daemons.
Csm would be either raptors (3 plasma per unit, can get 2 units of 5 for less than the total cost of a renegades detachment, as they don't need a transport), or chosen/havocs (can get 2 units filled with special weapons, if I use forward operatives to get them forward so they don't need a vehicle. Means they're vulnerable if I don't get first turn though).
Valkyrie renegades would be the most expensive option, but means less vulnerable to losing first turn, and still capable of a first turn attack as its not affected by the deepstrike fan like the raptors would be. Also means an extra vehicle on the table, whether it's chimera/arvus/Valkyrie. But I'd only have the one flyer so it will be vulnerable.
Plague marines would also be an option, the Champion with a plasma gun and two of the assult 2 24" guns i never seem to remember the name off.
Having the team in a chimera would be very A-team like. But then having them in a Chopper...
Fortunate son starts playing in the distance,.....
The Arvus isn't half bad imo, it is just kinda wierd also the modell is so expensive that it kinda puts me off and doesn't particulary look good.
Pts. wise you still probably get more bang and durability for your buck with valkyries, also you could fit the additional 2 heavy bolters for maximum flashback experience, maybee use catachans combined with chaos marauders and GSC Neophytes for a kitbash?
Before I go too far down this rabbit hole of taking a renegades detachments for plasma/melta marauders, I am going to first see if there's a better options with csm or daemons.
Can't think of anything from daemons.
Csm would be either raptors (3 plasma per unit, can get 2 units of 5 for less than the total cost of a renegades detachment, as they don't need a transport), or chosen/havocs (can get 2 units filled with special weapons, if I use forward operatives to get them forward so they don't need a vehicle. Means they're vulnerable if I don't get first turn though).
Valkyrie renegades would be the most expensive option, but means less vulnerable to losing first turn, and still capable of a first turn attack as its not affected by the deepstrike fan like the raptors would be. Also means an extra vehicle on the table, whether it's chimera/arvus/Valkyrie. But I'd only have the one flyer so it will be vulnerable.
Plague marines would also be an option, the Champion with a plasma gun and two of the assult 2 24" guns i never seem to remember the name off.
Blight Launchers. You can also give them plasma guns instead for triple-plasma.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to take a break from my 'strike force' plans ...
Daemon Princes.
So I have one with a Skullreaver Axe, because I mean... I have made a model with a big axe, and it seemed suitably scary.
Also plan to take one from CSM with Intoxicating Elixir and 2xTalons, to be my Alpharius.
Considering a second Daemons Codex one though, and I found a couple powers options that seemed interesting, so thought I'd ask some opinions.
1)
Prince of Nurgle - Corruption Sword + Talon, Fleshy Abundance. (or Miasma)
Healing D3 wounds a turn on top of 5+fnp would make for a very tanky prince. (Same with Miasma really).
2)
Prince of Slaanesh - Soulstealer Sword + Talon, Hysterical Frenzy.
Fighting twice with a Prince just seems pretty nasty. I could have him accompanied by some Warp Talons, and cast it on them instead, depending on the situation.
2b)
Same as above, but Cacophonic Choir for power, with Night Lords or Nurgle Icon Raptors. Would be for a leadership bomb style army though, so for my current list its really between 1 or 2 above. Just wanted to note this power seemed pretty cool.
Thinking about getting into summoning, it's not something I've tried before. My black legion army is purely either Khorne or Slaanesh. Looking at my options it has to be Bloodletters over Daemonettes right?
I run a slaanesh prince and a Khorne ex champ alongside my bereserkers. My initial berserker charge (usually turn two/three) invariably ends with much of the berserker squad being eviscerated by the following turn but my champ and prince are normally still standing. It seems strong to then summon daemons to replenish my close combat troops and an 8" charge with the instrument isn't too long a punt.
Only having to roll a 4 on 3 dice and then an 8 on 2 dice, 10 Bloodletters and instrument at 80pts putting out 21 S5 attacks is pretty tasty to clean up whatever the berserkers left alive...?
The only thing with going for bloodletters is i can't buff them in any way whereas my prince could buff daemonettes...
You still pay the points, so no gain there, and the act of summoning itself means you are not moving (something a chaos char rarely wants to do), taking a risk to your summoner AND it might still fuzz and not get you what you want.
And the issue it-most daemons are just not different enough from each other. especially inside a given god. tzeentch being an outlier here with some daemons being pretty darn different from others.
Too many loops, for too little gain.
The only cases where its even for consideration are
1-TS summoning tzeentch daemons with thier stratagem. as said, tzeentch daemons are actually varied a bit so it might help.
2-WB undivided char, so you got stratagem backup and a wide array of options, then again-why are you playing WB? (honestly, WB are so bad its not even funny.)
Good luck trying to make Summoning work, Word Bearer here 95% given up on side of Narrative. Especially since Daemon detachments gained extra Loci, and Battalions yielded +2CP. It’s far, far better to commit to Daemons at the army list stage. Almost all situations where a summon is useful, it’s when you’ve taken pink Horrors, nobody shot at them, and you dropped like some cheeky Flamers in front of a melee-only unit just to actually use your reinforcement points
lindsay40k wrote: Good luck trying to make Summoning work, Word Bearer here 95% given up on side of Narrative. Especially since Daemon detachments gained extra Loci, and Battalions yielded +2CP. It’s far, far better to commit to Daemons at the army list stage. Almost all situations where a summon is useful, it’s when you’ve taken pink Horrors, nobody shot at them, and you dropped like some cheeky Flamers in front of a melee-only unit just to actually use your reinforcement points
Which is where I almost decided to use summoning (for a flamer unit), but you have to give up a turn of movement to summon something, and instead you can just spend 1CP and deepstrike those flamers whenever you want, without needing a character standing around. I can even deepstrike the flamers without having to pay the 'tax' of having a tzeentch HQ to summon them.
Summoning isn't very useful these days, outside of a few very specific situations. (Can't think of any offhand but I'm sure there are some).
Yeah. Keep an eye on Sigmar 2.0 - they’re doing some creative stuff with Summoning in that, and I’d expect 9ed or CA to roll out something similar. Right now, it’s not worth it.
Eldarain wrote: Bringing back points free summoning tied to thematic Daemonkin mechanics like AoS is doing would be great.
Is AOS points-free summoning?
I dunno... I am not convinced that points-free is a good idea, as it just leads to the old problem of a daemons army battle ending up being 2000pts vs 3000+ points or whatever.
If it was points free, then there would need to be a huge drawback to balance the game (such as a big risk of wiping out the summoner). And the problem with having a big drawback, is it just makes it a coin-toss as to whether the daemons player wins or loses.
Eldarain wrote: Bringing back points free summoning tied to thematic Daemonkin mechanics like AoS is doing would be great.
Is AOS points-free summoning?
I dunno... I am not convinced that points-free is a good idea, as it just leads to the old problem of a daemons army battle ending up being 2000pts vs 3000+ points or whatever.
If it was points free, then there would need to be a huge drawback to balance the game (such as a big risk of wiping out the summoner). And the problem with having a big drawback, is it just makes it a coin-toss as to whether the daemons player wins or loses.
It is now yes. But the armies that make use of it have a separate mechanic dictating how much and when they can summon. Nurgle has to accrue Contagion points by occupying each deployment zone(3 each) and getting D3 per tree each turn. A unit of Nurglings is 14 points and the GUO is 24 I think so it constrains the old systems easily spammed nature.
Eldarain wrote: Bringing back points free summoning tied to thematic Daemonkin mechanics like AoS is doing would be great.
Is AOS points-free summoning?
I dunno... I am not convinced that points-free is a good idea, as it just leads to the old problem of a daemons army battle ending up being 2000pts vs 3000+ points or whatever.
If it was points free, then there would need to be a huge drawback to balance the game (such as a big risk of wiping out the summoner). And the problem with having a big drawback, is it just makes it a coin-toss as to whether the daemons player wins or loses.
It is now yes. But the armies that make use of it have a separate mechanic dictating how much and when they can summon. Nurgle has to accrue Contagion points by occupying each deployment zone(3 each) and getting D3 per tree each turn. A unit of Nurglings is 14 points and the GUO is 24 I think so it constrains the old systems easily spammed nature.
I mean that's fine, cos it's not really points free. Or .. I mean it doesn't cost 'points', but it does cost a different form of currency which is self-limiting, and so it can be balanced via the normal points/detachment system.
So if they made it that you gained summoning points by making kills, or by holding objectives, then it means you have to earn your summons, and your opponent has the ability to interrupt or prevent you.
No spamming, leads to some new game dynamics and tactics, I think it could work for 40k too.
Interesting. I hadn't heard how the AoS new summons worked.so thanks. I like it, but I wonder if the single way an army gets summon points also pidginholes them into a cookie cutter tactic that is predictable. I hope not, because I really hope summoning makes a return as an actual threat that's not just cheesy spamming to get boots on the ground.
Dactylartha wrote: Interesting. I hadn't heard how the AoS new summons worked.so thanks. I like it, but I wonder if the single way an army gets summon points also pidginholes them into a cookie cutter tactic that is predictable. I hope not, because I really hope summoning makes a return as an actual threat that's not just cheesy spamming to get boots on the ground.
I think it might be OK if it's something that army should be doing anyway.
Like if it's something generic like holding objectives, that's what all armies should be doing, so it doesn't affect tactics much. Other than armies who jump onto objectives last turn I guess... But nurgle armies can grab and sit on objectives because they're tough to shift. So it wouldn't make them any more predictable than anyone else.
Lets hope they do something for chaos in chapter approved anyway, as summoning needs some work, and warp talons (and to a lesser extent raptors, and other jetpack/deepstrike units) are pretty much useless at the moment.
Unless you're Custodes of course. They can deepstrike 3" from the enemy, so no charge problems with them.
Okay thanks, interesting to hear about AoS. I'll see if I can find the rules somewhere. Looking forward to chapter approved, I feel there's a lot about the CSM army that needs addressed although I imagine every army player feels that way...
Abaddon303 wrote: Thinking about getting into summoning, it's not something I've tried before. My black legion army is purely either Khorne or Slaanesh. Looking at my options it has to be Bloodletters over Daemonettes right?
I run a slaanesh prince and a Khorne ex champ alongside my bereserkers. My initial berserker charge (usually turn two/three) invariably ends with much of the berserker squad being eviscerated by the following turn but my champ and prince are normally still standing. It seems strong to then summon daemons to replenish my close combat troops and an 8" charge with the instrument isn't too long a punt.
Only having to roll a 4 on 3 dice and then an 8 on 2 dice, 10 Bloodletters and instrument at 80pts putting out 21 S5 attacks is pretty tasty to clean up whatever the berserkers left alive...?
The only thing with going for bloodletters is i can't buff them in any way whereas my prince could buff daemonettes...
Well Summoning can be done by all Chaos Charachters right?
Technically nothing is stopping you from taking a 170 pts battalion of R&H for the sweet 5CP and (ab)using the 2 charachters for summoning. I do use it sometimes as a stopgag meassure with 10 bloodletters for plugging holes in my line that melee troops can lead too, which they do decently enough but massive summoning is quite out of favour as of 8th.
If that is worth it is up to you and as was pointed out WB are quite frankly one of the worst Legion buffs you could be picking.
Decimator has Helbrute statline, even though it's about the same size/silhouette as a Leviathan dread. Honestly, it's way too anemic for what the model is.
I think an Armiger would be even taller, and comes on a much larger base (Decimator is still crammed on a 60mm).
That said, I've never had anyone having issues with my dreadnought sized Decimator conversion. I just jacked it up with sentinel legs.
McGibs wrote: Decimator has Helbrute statline, even though it's about the same size/silhouette as a Leviathan dread. Honestly, it's way too anemic for what the model is.
I think an Armiger would be even taller, and comes on a much larger base (Decimator is still crammed on a 60mm).
That said, I've never had anyone having issues with my dreadnought sized Decimator conversion. I just jacked it up with sentinel legs.
It certainly has not a hellbrute statline.
Infact it has also diffrent keywords.
I do like what i see here, altough the background of decimators does not really have variants, i could see this as a prototype for them.
Nice work.
McGibs wrote: Decimator has Helbrute statline, even though it's about the same size/silhouette as a Leviathan dread. Honestly, it's way too anemic for what the model is.
I think an Armiger would be even taller, and comes on a much larger base (Decimator is still crammed on a 60mm).
That said, I've never had anyone having issues with my dreadnought sized Decimator conversion. I just jacked it up with sentinel legs.
It certainly has not a hellbrute statline.
Infact it has also diffrent keywords.
I do like what i see here, altough the background of decimators does not really have variants, i could see this as a prototype for them.
Nice work.
While technically this is true, I think most people would be fine with this as a decimator, as it's a suitably chaos-looking walker.
However it probably is closer to a Contemptor, which is a Helbrute, so you could decide to run it as one of those. They have a very similar statline to Armigers.
Frankly the Decimators saddens me personally, since their background is in some cases not really explored, which seem produced in one sector on a somewhat industrial scale, seem to work individually as mercenaries/ pirates etc.
We don't know who produces them albeit it seems the dark mechanicus has a hand in it. They also seem more like the footsoldiers for said producer, leading to the conclusion that there is a relative big ammount of them avilable to sell them to the highest bidder.
I kinda would like to see a Dark mechanicus branch which uses them as troop choices, then again i'd like a dark mechanicus army anyways.
Speaking of Decimators, I have now used x3 dual soulburners in several games. Paired with a major melee threat (brass scorpion, bezerkers, bloodthirsters) it feels....honestly disgusting. Particularly when used against units with good invul saves (storm shield wielding TWC or Wulfen for example).
12d3 shots rerolling 1's (when near the appropriate lord) ... every hit is a mortal wound. They've focused down multiple primarchs, absolutely gutted blobs, and demolished vehicles.
My play group is quickly getting tired of them and I don't think it will be permitted for me to bring them much longer.
I hear from other chaos players "oh but they are so defensively weak, oh the gun is such short range"
But honestly: I hide them turn 1, assuming I won't go first. They have a 10" move and the gun is 24", so a 34" threat range gets me pretty close to whatever unit my opponent is sending up field. Could even advance as they are assault weapons.
And of course most people send up their melee or counter melee units... so the decimators melt their frontline and the bezerkers/scorpion ploughs into their squishy innards.
I feel like bringing them compensated for my Scorpion's poor defense, and the scorpion serves as a good distraction for their's. Mid field threat saturation in a major way. So long as you properly bubble wrap with cultists/horrors... just seems brutal. To the point where bringing them doesn't feel good. Am I or my opponents over reacting?
Also:
Currently I'm proxying leviathan dreadnoughts for them, are they much bigger in scale?
weaver9 wrote: Speaking of Decimators, I have now used x3 dual soulburners in several games. Paired with a major melee threat (brass scorpion, bezerkers, bloodthirsters) it feels....honestly disgusting. Particularly when used against units with good invul saves (storm shield wielding TWC or Wulfen for example).
12d3 shots rerolling 1's (when near the appropriate lord) ... every hit is a mortal wound. They've focused down multiple primarchs, absolutely gutted blobs, and demolished vehicles.
My play group is quickly getting tired of them and I don't think it will be permitted for me to bring them much longer.
I hear from other chaos players "oh but they are so defensively weak, oh the gun is such short range"
But honestly: I hide them turn 1, assuming I won't go first. They have a 10" move and the gun is 24", so a 34" threat range gets me pretty close to whatever unit my opponent is sending up field. Could even advance as they are assault weapons.
And of course most people send up their melee or counter melee units... so the decimators melt their frontline and the bezerkers/scorpion ploughs into their squishy innards.
I feel like bringing them compensated for my Scorpion's poor defense, and the scorpion serves as a good distraction for their's. Mid field threat saturation in a major way. So long as you properly bubble wrap with cultists/horrors... just seems brutal. To the point where bringing them doesn't feel good. Am I or my opponents over reacting?
Also:
Currently I'm proxying leviathan dreadnoughts for them, are they much bigger in scale?
You run double petards, the most broken weapon Chaos can field (except ofcourse psykers but those are debatable since psy is anyways really strong in 8th). Infact it seriously needs a nerf for them in my opinion. I'd personally reccomend you to switch up the loadouts. Take one with a butchercannon+ claw loadout or lazer claw loadout. Your oponnents will realize that those things aren't as broken. (infact such a loadout is barely worth the points sadly) Frankly the Decimator could use some reajustments probably.
Ap0k wrote: Petards are 60pts a pop. A double Soulburner Decimator runs you 210 points, and averages 4-5 mortal wounds/turn if you factor in a re-roll aura.
They're already competitively non-viable. If anything they need the points reduced a little to make them feasible.
Which should be noted, for about the same cost, you could take 2 sorcerers which are far less vulnerable and are able to do more.
Decimators are fun, I have 2 for my DG, but they are just better dreads with all that means in this edition.
Ap0k wrote: Petards are 60pts a pop. A double Soulburner Decimator runs you 210 points, and averages 4-5 mortal wounds/turn if you factor in a re-roll aura.
They're already competitively non-viable. If anything they need the points reduced a little to make them feasible.
Which should be noted, for about the same cost, you could take 2 sorcerers which are far less vulnerable and are able to do more.
Decimators are fun, I have 2 for my DG, but they are just better dreads with all that means in this edition.
It's interesting how I hear they are non competitive (which I acknowledge they are, as no one uses them competitively), but then also get this visceral gut reaction from people saying they're broken/overpowered.
Is it that players at a certain level strategically are more able to deal with them?
Regarding this... I felt the same about them an avg of 6 mortal wounds a turn wasn't the most impressive. But taking 3 of them nets you an avg of 18.6 mortal wounds a turn. Which... smite spam in chaos really can't touch. Just feels like it scales better.
Downside is sorcerers can be denied and smite can fail, and has to target the closest enemy. They are safer but less reliable feeling.
Again obviously they are not competitive, otherwise we'd be seeing them more. Just trying to unwind this mystery because they are working well for me thus far.
They're mid-ranged enough that they can easily be tied up in combat by any disposable unit. That 210 point investment doesn't look so hot when a 54pt unit of Nurglings can trap it in combat and prevent it shooting every turn, with no hope of the Decimator fighting its way out without outside support.
Even ignoring the obvious close combat weakness, Double Petard Decimators average about 42pt per wound caused, which is terrible damage efficiency.
They're not particularly durable if they get focussed down, since that disables their regen, so you deal with them the same way you deal with a lot of the current high toughness invul-save-based metagame threats: A bunch of mid-strength, mid-AP, multi damage weapons.
It certainly has not a hellbrute statline.
Infact it has also diffrent keywords.
I wasn't being literal, I know it's not ACTUALLY a hellbrute. But it's a WS/BS 3+, T7, 8W 3+ save walker, which is the standard statline of a hellbrute/dread (Yes, it's got some extra gubbins on top, like daemon saves and wound regens). The decimator is a dreadnought equivalent, or DEQ, if you will.
That's why I said "hellbrute statline". Which it has. The only different stat is movement 10" instead of 8"
Daemon Engine can be anything. A defiler, a maulerfiend, a blood slaughterer, a plague drone, a heldrake. There's no consistent statline for a daemon engine.
Dactylartha wrote: Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?
It largely depends on what you’re facing. Against BS5+, Miasma halves your incoming shooting damage. BS4+, it’s no different. (Actually, ever so slightly inferior - they can throw a reroll at a key miss of a high damage weapon, whereas you could only reroll a single DA roll against a single wound.) Against BS3+ (and better), DA prevents more actual damage. I prefer DA as it also protects against Mortal Wounds, which on a T8 2+ unit is a concern. It also can’t be denied by ‘ignore negative modifiers to hit’ malarkies.
I prefer Miasma on an Advancing Defiler or Rhino, where the modifier compounds, and DA on something that doesn’t want to forfeit its shooting - which would certainly describe a Land Raider
I mean, almost every daemon engine (aside from big daddy LOS) is toughness 7, regens wounds, has a 5++ save and the Daemon keyword. Those are a lot of similarities.
Dactylartha wrote: Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?
I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.
Dactylartha wrote: Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?
I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.
Thanks to you both. Any merit to reserving a CP to beseech the Gods once I see deployment? 8 CP list.
Dactylartha wrote: Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?
I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.
Thanks to you both. Any merit to reserving a CP to beseech the Gods once I see deployment? 8 CP list.
I would say no. 9/10 you'll go slaanesh, and 8 cp will go quick in chaos.
Finally got to play with the 3 leviathan 3 DP army at 2k
Was against IG. The grav leviathan got popped turn 1 after killing a few guardsmen, but the two melee leviathans were able to kill 2 leman russ's each, plus a bunch of smaller things. They definitely held their own and soaked a ton of shooting
Dactylartha wrote: Quick sidetrack: Miasma or Delightful Agonies on a Land Raider?
I recall running some numbers and Agonies was a good all purpose winner. Largely because it mitigates smite, and high damage weaponry better than miasma.
Thanks to you both. Any merit to reserving a CP to beseech the Gods once I see deployment? 8 CP list.
I’d sooner commit at the list building stage and use the reroll when the spell fails
weaver9 wrote: Speaking of Decimators, I have now used x3 dual soulburners in several games. Paired with a major melee threat (brass scorpion, bezerkers, bloodthirsters) it feels....honestly disgusting. Particularly when used against units with good invul saves (storm shield wielding TWC or Wulfen for example).
12d3 shots rerolling 1's (when near the appropriate lord) ... every hit is a mortal wound. They've focused down multiple primarchs, absolutely gutted blobs, and demolished vehicles.
My play group is quickly getting tired of them and I don't think it will be permitted for me to bring them much longer.
I hear from other chaos players "oh but they are so defensively weak, oh the gun is such short range"
But honestly: I hide them turn 1, assuming I won't go first. They have a 10" move and the gun is 24", so a 34" threat range gets me pretty close to whatever unit my opponent is sending up field. Could even advance as they are assault weapons.
And of course most people send up their melee or counter melee units... so the decimators melt their frontline and the bezerkers/scorpion ploughs into their squishy innards.
I feel like bringing them compensated for my Scorpion's poor defense, and the scorpion serves as a good distraction for their's. Mid field threat saturation in a major way. So long as you properly bubble wrap with cultists/horrors... just seems brutal. To the point where bringing them doesn't feel good. Am I or my opponents over reacting?
Also:
Currently I'm proxying leviathan dreadnoughts for them, are they much bigger in scale?
Knights currently is the measuring stick if something works; as it stands, a knight will gut multiple decimators a turn, especially if they have the house that outflanks. Yes, they are good, but not competitive compared to butcher contemptors, levithans, and other options. Plus the variable shots really limits them.
Of course this is all objective, if your club cant handle decimators, dunno what to tell em lol
Im facing Sisters for the first time in a big game using my Khorne army. What are some good units to bring to give me an edge? I dont know SoB that well, and im not sure if Zerker Party buses and Letter Bombs are as viable on them.
vaklor4 wrote: Im facing Sisters for the first time in a big game using my Khorne army. What are some good units to bring to give me an edge? I dont know SoB that well, and im not sure if Zerker Party buses and Letter Bombs are as viable on them.
They presumably bring lots of flames, so I would say be prepared to soak up overwatch some how (charge with your rhinos first, then your bezerkers). But their defensive stats are aren't anything crazy. Drive up and get them skills
Yeah, avoid charging from within flame range if you can help it, measure distances during movement phase and use IoW & LoR & CRR to execute charges from 8.1” away from flamers
You’re actually in a somewhat less vulnerable position than other gods as you’re not going to be relying on Warptime, Sisters are a pretty hard counter to psychic acrobatics as 2CP will deny anything 75% of the time
Party bus might be tricky as they have decent BS and a lot of Melta. Also they usually move one unit twice, so don’t ever think that 23” is a safe distance from that one super Melta unit, if you’ve got solid firepower consider that sort of unit a dangerous threat
Are there any merits to infiltrating a unit of chosen or havocs?
How would you outfit them?
They seem expensive to use as a suicide unit but I am trying to think of other units to infiltrate other than cultist blobs.
What goal? What point range?
Chosen are literally more expensive havocs with one more attack, sadly, so for a suicide unit i'd recommend havocs with plasma guns. Alternativly you could take autocannons or if you want to go cheap heavy bolters.
I wouldn’t buy them to do it, but I’d keep an open mind and assess the battlefield. If there’s a fantastic vantage point in no man’s land whilst your own DZ can’t see squat, why not put four lascannons up it? Make sure to deploy them last, or else your opponent will get cautious.
Also, no harm in infiltrating your own DZ. If your opponent has one big scary thing they’re deploying last, 1CP to pick your firing location after it drops isn’t a bad call.
Are there any merits to infiltrating a unit of chosen or havocs?
How would you outfit them?
They seem expensive to use as a suicide unit but I am trying to think of other units to infiltrate other than cultist blobs.
It might be a viable tactic on Plasma-wielding Chosen or Havocs, as long as you have somewhere relatively safe to infiltrate them to if you don't get first turn.
On a related note, I've used the Infiltrate strat on Noise Marines, and it works pretty good. Great way to get them into a good position for their relatively light but high ROF guns.
Are there any merits to infiltrating a unit of chosen or havocs?
How would you outfit them?
They seem expensive to use as a suicide unit but I am trying to think of other units to infiltrate other than cultist blobs.
What goal? What point range?
Chosen are literally more expensive havocs with one more attack, sadly, so for a suicide unit i'd recommend havocs with plasma guns. Alternativly you could take autocannons or if you want to go cheap heavy bolters.
1850-2000 points would be normal kind of range.
And the purpose would be an alternative to my previous thinking on a "Chimera/Valkyrie + 2x5-man Plasma Marauder Squads" detachment.
While I like marauders (and the ogryn options too), I'm disliking that FW seem to be squatting the R&H line. Seeing if there is another way I can build my "fluffy special forces squad" using non-FW rules.
Best options seem to be:
Chosen/Havocs (basically the same options, but its a toss up between cheaper vs extra melee capabilities) + HQ leader (lord/champion). Probably infiltrated to save points on transports, but could be put in a Rhino (or a Spartan if I'm feeling nutty.)
or
Raptors. Less firepower and less melee, faster. Could be infiltrated or warptimed, to avoid the deepstrike nerf.
On a related note, I've used the Infiltrate strat on Noise Marines, and it works pretty good. Great way to get them into a good position for their relatively light but high ROF guns.
Noise marines are an option too. Certainly worth thinking about. I'd add that to the chosen/havocs line though, as they're all basically the same premise. Noise gets the 2 attacks, but no weapons to use them with.
I don't think they will squat r&h, that would've been likely after the long drought after the vraks books but not after the late 7th edition ia13 and the new vraks books we got later.
I think it is more likely that we could see them along the line of the old storm of Chaos campaign or as a subfaction / faction released by gw.
I belive though that the Modell line is getting squated.
Have you thought about infiltrating regular csm? Or rubrics? Especially rubrics could be interesting, for modelling and gameplay possibilities.
Not Online!!! wrote: I don't think they will squat r&h, that would've been likely after the long drought after the vraks books but not after the late 7th edition ia13 and the new vraks books we got later.
I think it is more likely that we could see them along the line of the old storm of Chaos campaign or as a subfaction / faction released by gw.
I belive though that the Modell line is getting squated.
Have you thought about infiltrating regular csm? Or rubrics? Especially rubrics could be interesting, for modelling and gameplay possibilities.
I mean I like Rubrics in theory, as they would allow for more flamers in my list, but I thought they were generally considered pretty useless?
I mean I'd also love to run infiltrating terminators, but again are apparently more of a hindrance than a help.
I only really ever play friendlies, but I don't want to just turn up and lose.
I'm new to ruining AL but I like to infiltrate big blobs of cultists to charge turn 1 or buffer my rhinos from charges.
The risk of not going first really dissuades me from infiltrating my expensive units.
I like infiltrating havoc squad idea, even saving it for your own DZ. You can plop them on an obj and really psych out your opponent's placements of units the havoc counters.
I don't own any, but I think plague marines would be a good choice for infiltration as they're pretty durable if you don't go first, have some nice guns, aren't awful in a fight, and in cover on an obj are a pain to remove.
The risk of not going first really dissuades me from infiltrating my expensive units.
You deploy units infiltrated via forward operatives after dicing for who takes the first turn, just in case you weren't aware.
So if you lose first turn you can just stick 'em somewhere safe in or near your d-zone.
Yeh, I know, but then that feels like a bit of a waste of however many CP I spend on infiltrating. Though there are still ways of getting some use out of it, depending on terrain etc.
Got a game coming up against an Ork player who tends to run ridiculous hordes. I'm thinking volume of fire is the way forwards and largely gunline around Abaddon.
Lots of flamers. Unit of five chosen with combi flamers. I see the point about chosen above but the extra couple of S4 attacks with the chainsword could be useful against orks. Should kill double figures even in overwatch.
Might try running my heldrake for once?
Berserker bus that I'll probably not move but try to hide out of LOS to keep them safe until he's in my lines.
I only have a couple of heavy bolter havocs, maybe a missile launcher too
Then I'm thinking fight fire with fire and go with my own horde of cultists. Rapid fire with votlw should do well.
Any other ideas? I'm currently building a maulerfiend so can try to hurry that along, not sure if he's likely to get overrun tho...
Chosen with combi Flamers and chainswords are absolutely an exception to the ‘take cheaper Havocs instead’ rule IMO. You’re going to get an extra eight hits in with your shooting, and take down one or two more Orks when they charge you. And yeah, Berzerkers should definitely be choosing their fights in the mid to late game when you’re facing green tide. Cultist counter-horde seems ok, but if they do get charged by a largely intact unit with choppas you’re at risk of getting wiped out.
vaklor4 wrote: Im facing Sisters for the first time in a big game using my Khorne army. What are some good units to bring to give me an edge? I dont know SoB that well, and im not sure if Zerker Party buses and Letter Bombs are as viable on them.
They presumably bring lots of flames, so I would say be prepared to soak up overwatch some how (charge with your rhinos first, then your bezerkers). But their defensive stats are aren't anything crazy. Drive up and get them skills
Immolators are 12" range and 2d6 heavy flamers so plan accordingly. Bloodletters won't last long.
lindsay40k wrote: Chosen with combi Flamers and chainswords are absolutely an exception to the ‘take cheaper Havocs instead’ rule IMO. You’re going to get an extra eight hits in with your shooting, and take down one or two more Orks when they charge you. And yeah, Berzerkers should definitely be choosing their fights in the mid to late game when you’re facing green tide. Cultist counter-horde seems ok, but if they do get charged by a largely intact unit with choppas you’re at risk of getting wiped out.
Combi-Flamers are terrible. Just take the Combi-Bolters and call it a day.
I was just about to dispute that but just mathhammered it and you're killing 1.11 orks with a combi and 1.88 with the combiflamer. Not sure thats worth the extra 9 points.
obviously the combiflamers are more effective in overwatch but its probably better to stay out the way rather than having to move within 8" and commit overwatch suicide
Abaddon303 wrote: I was just about to dispute that but just mathhammered it and you're killing 1.11 orks with a combi and 1.88 with the combiflamer. Not sure thats worth the extra 9 points.
obviously the combiflamers are more effective in overwatch but its probably better to stay out the way rather than having to move within 8" and commit overwatch suicide
I mean, that is true it's only 1.1 vs 1.8 dead orks... but when you start taking account of squads, that could be 11 dead orks vs 18 dead orks.
I mean tzeentch flamers will only do about 1.8 dead guardsmen each for 28pts, so Combi-Bolter Chosen are only 18 points, so it's a 10 point difference. But Chosen are not considered particularly competitive, while Flamers are at least considered to be pretty good.
If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
Very good point too.
Why would you ever infiltrate this close?
Potential first strike. 6 Chosen with Combi-Bolters and Chainswords can potentially ruin a good amount of even two Ork Boyz squads.
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
Very good point too.
Why would you ever infiltrate this close?
Aren't like ... 90% of all infiltrate plans all about infiltrating within 12"? Either for the ability to have a guaranteed charge, or for rapid-fire plasma? (Or I guess even Melta, but I would expect that to be impossible with proper screens set up).
Of course, half the time you don't get first turn, so the plans have to change. But if you do get first turn, it's all about the 9"/12" infiltrate.
At least thats what I thought, are a lot of people somehow infiltrating 24"+ away and making use of it?
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
Very good point too.
Why would you ever infiltrate this close?
Aren't like ... 90% of all infiltrate plans all about infiltrating within 12"? Either for the ability to have a guaranteed charge, or for rapid-fire plasma? (Or I guess even Melta, but I would expect that to be impossible with proper screens set up).
Of course, half the time you don't get first turn, so the plans have to change. But if you do get first turn, it's all about the 9"/12" infiltrate.
At least thats what I thought, are a lot of people somehow infiltrating 24"+ away and making use of it?
A) you infiltrate after determinig who goes first. (armies aswell as who has the first turn advantage determines how much you will infiltrate or how deep.)
B) you often infiltrate that way to eliminate key targets as part of an alpha strike, a green tide however has it's key component hidden and or is so numerous that combi weaponry will not have enough burst rof to dent it.
Which leads to to the possibility of C) defense in depth.
I wasn't planning on infiltrating with the chosen, i play black legion. just looking for ways to get high volume of fire. Much of my army is high powered. Lots of las etc. I don't go up against hordes often
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was probably going to use them as a screen and road bump
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
Very good point too.
Why would you ever infiltrate this close?
Aren't like ... 90% of all infiltrate plans all about infiltrating within 12"? Either for the ability to have a guaranteed charge, or for rapid-fire plasma? (Or I guess even Melta, but I would expect that to be impossible with proper screens set up).
Of course, half the time you don't get first turn, so the plans have to change. But if you do get first turn, it's all about the 9"/12" infiltrate.
At least thats what I thought, are a lot of people somehow infiltrating 24"+ away and making use of it?
A) you infiltrate after determinig who goes first. (armies aswell as who has the first turn advantage determines how much you will infiltrate or how deep.)
B) you often infiltrate that way to eliminate key targets as part of an alpha strike, a green tide however has it's key component hidden and or is so numerous that combi weaponry will not have enough burst rof to dent it.
Which leads to to the possibility of C) defense in depth.
I'm not sure how your point about infiltrating after the dice roll relates to what I was saying. I know that's how it works. But when you make a list, and have units planned, and you plan ahead with what you'd like to do with those units, it's always with the hope of getting first turn.
Hence 90% of plans being, essentially, "get first turn, infiltrate within 12", blast/charge the enemy".
Of course if you don't get first turn, then you use plan B. But that doesn't change was your initial plan WAS, it just means your plan failed due to not getting first turn.
Which is one reason I kinda dislike the Alpha Legion stratagem. Its very powerful in 50% of games, and fairly useless in the other 50%. You do still get to place those units after your opponent has finished deployment, so there is some value in that to put things in decently defensive positions, but its nowhere near as good as "First turn 60 berserkers guaranteed charge".
Edit:
While I'm on the subject of Alpha Legion, what do people actually think of the warlord trait?
It's very fluffy, and I like it in theory, but as you get random traits on top of the warlord switcheroo, if runs the risk of you getting fairly unhelpful traits (such as extra death to the false emperor rolls, when you're playing against tau).
It also requires you taking at least 3 Alpha Legion HQ's to really get the most from it, and that's fine if you're doing mono-Alpha but it's a points sink if you're planning to play some varied detachments like daemons or something.
Just wondered if people play with it, or pick a different fixed trait for their warlord.
Abaddon303 wrote: I was just about to dispute that but just mathhammered it and you're killing 1.11 orks with a combi and 1.88 with the combiflamer. Not sure thats worth the extra 9 points.
obviously the combiflamers are more effective in overwatch but its probably better to stay out the way rather than having to move within 8" and commit overwatch suicide
I mean, that is true it's only 1.1 vs 1.8 dead orks... but when you start taking account of squads, that could be 11 dead orks vs 18 dead orks.
I mean tzeentch flamers will only do about 1.8 dead guardsmen each for 28pts, so Combi-Bolter Chosen are only 18 points, so it's a 10 point difference. But Chosen are not considered particularly competitive, while Flamers are at least considered to be pretty good.
Though Fly probably helps with that.
Its not fly.
Is that they are more durable, faster, have greater range, and their gun can shoot while in CC as it's considered a pistol. And to top it off, they can be buffed more, easier (heck, you can even buff the gun itself as it's tied to S, and herald boosts S)
Combibolter chosen are cheaper, and begin being useful at longer ranges.
Combibolter chosen aint impressive mind you, but they are better than combiflamer ones.
While I'm on the subject of Alpha Legion, what do people actually think of the warlord trait?
It's very fluffy, and I like it in theory, but as you get random traits on top of the warlord switcheroo, if runs the risk of you getting fairly unhelpful traits (such as extra death to the false emperor rolls, when you're playing against tau).
It also requires you taking at least 3 Alpha Legion HQ's to really get the most from it, and that's fine if you're doing mono-Alpha but it's a points sink if you're planning to play some varied detachments like daemons or something.
Just wondered if people play with it, or pick a different fixed trait for their warlord.
Another question to add on to this (though not really related at all, I just didn't wan't my previous question to get lost) -
What do people think of Bloodcrushers?
I know that Bloodletters are the usual option, one big blob of them with a banner of blood being deepstriked for a 3D6 charge. But as always, blobs of units bore me (both to paint and to play), and I noticed that the Bloodcrushers can -also- be deepstriked and get a banner of blood.
Well I'm not sure about the chosen now, I might just drop them completely in favour of more cultists. Doesn't seem like a good idea going up against the quintessential horde army with my own horde.
I'm really struggling to find enough rate of fire in my army. maybe I'll build the fiend as a forge fiend? Alongside 2 units of oblits and buffed by Aba and his extra CP for daemonforge they should be able to kill with almost every shot.
If I'm reading correctly, the theory behind the Chosen was to use them as a speedbump - present them as a viable charge target, have a large unit charge them and lose a lot going in to flamer overwatch, then (if you survive) falling back and trying to shoot the overextended unit to pieces.
Why sink so many points into a speed hump unit then? Assuming no other upgrades, 5 Chosen with Combi-Flamers (assuming the champion gets one too) is 135pts. Hardly expensive, but I doubt you'll be killing 135pts worth of orks with that strategy, unless you trick him into charging in with an expensive but fragile unit. A unit of 5 Havocs with 4 flamers is only 101pts, which will have a similar damage output on overwatch (you could also give the champion a combi-flamer I suppose), but for fewer points?
A unit of 5 Havocs with 4 heavy bolters would be my pick though - it's 105pts and if you use Veterans of The Long War to that unit, you're going to be wounding on a 2+ against T4 enemies. If you're shooting at lightly armoured enemies, they're likely not going to get much (if any) armour saves either. Combine that with the Mark of Slaanesh ability to shoot twice in a phase - for 3CPs you're getting a very high anti-horde damage output. If I'm reading it correctly, VotLW also affects BOTH sets of shooting, because it simply states "until the end of the phase".
Given the choice between spending 105pts for the HB Havocs and 135pts for the Combi-Flamer suicide squad, I know where I'd rather throw my points. Heck, with the spare 30pts, that's almost a unit of Cultists to fulfill the speed-hump role anyway.
Abaddon303 wrote: Got a game coming up against an Ork player who tends to run ridiculous hordes. I'm thinking volume of fire is the way forwards and largely gunline around Abaddon.
Lots of flamers. Unit of five chosen with combi flamers. I see the point about chosen above but the extra couple of S4 attacks with the chainsword could be useful against orks. Should kill double figures even in overwatch.
Might try running my heldrake for once?
Berserker bus that I'll probably not move but try to hide out of LOS to keep them safe until he's in my lines.
I only have a couple of heavy bolter havocs, maybe a missile launcher too
Then I'm thinking fight fire with fire and go with my own horde of cultists. Rapid fire with votlw should do well.
Any other ideas? I'm currently building a maulerfiend so can try to hurry that along, not sure if he's likely to get overrun tho...
Avoid melee as long as possible. If you can force them into a shooting game, you'll win. Run Berzerkers to be your front force for when they finally get to you. If they run more than just Boy hordes (stuff with 2+ wounds) consider a Autocannon Forgefiend. It wounds on a 2+, puts Nobz to 6+ to save, and does exactly enough damage to kill one. Use the stratagem to reroll hits and wounds and watch heads fly, from a very safe distance...And when they finally DO reach the Fiend? You got yourself a competent melee bruiser statline.
Raichase wrote: If I'm reading correctly, the theory behind the Chosen was to use them as a speedbump - present them as a viable charge target, have a large unit charge them and lose a lot going in to flamer overwatch, then (if you survive) falling back and trying to shoot the overextended unit to pieces.
Why sink so many points into a speed hump unit then? Assuming no other upgrades, 5 Chosen with Combi-Flamers (assuming the champion gets one too) is 135pts. Hardly expensive, but I doubt you'll be killing 135pts worth of orks with that strategy, unless you trick him into charging in with an expensive but fragile unit. A unit of 5 Havocs with 4 flamers is only 101pts, which will have a similar damage output on overwatch (you could also give the champion a combi-flamer I suppose), but for fewer points?
A unit of 5 Havocs with 4 heavy bolters would be my pick though - it's 105pts and if you use Veterans of The Long War to that unit, you're going to be wounding on a 2+ against T4 enemies. If you're shooting at lightly armoured enemies, they're likely not going to get much (if any) armour saves either. Combine that with the Mark of Slaanesh ability to shoot twice in a phase - for 3CPs you're getting a very high anti-horde damage output. If I'm reading it correctly, VotLW also affects BOTH sets of shooting, because it simply states "until the end of the phase".
Given the choice between spending 105pts for the HB Havocs and 135pts for the Combi-Flamer suicide squad, I know where I'd rather throw my points. Heck, with the spare 30pts, that's almost a unit of Cultists to fulfill the speed-hump role anyway.
Forget about the talk of Combi-Flamers (Chaos knows why it was even being discussed as valid) and go straight for Combi-Bolters. That's 108 points for 6 Chosen with Combi-Bolters.
While I'm on the subject of Alpha Legion, what do people actually think of the warlord trait?
It's very fluffy, and I like it in theory, but as you get random traits on top of the warlord switcheroo, if runs the risk of you getting fairly unhelpful traits (such as extra death to the false emperor rolls, when you're playing against tau).
It also requires you taking at least 3 Alpha Legion HQ's to really get the most from it, and that's fine if you're doing mono-Alpha but it's a points sink if you're planning to play some varied detachments like daemons or something.
Just wondered if people play with it, or pick a different fixed trait for their warlord.
Another question to add on to this (though not really related at all, I just didn't wan't my previous question to get lost) -
What do people think of Bloodcrushers?
I know that Bloodletters are the usual option, one big blob of them with a banner of blood being deepstriked for a 3D6 charge. But as always, blobs of units bore me (both to paint and to play), and I noticed that the Bloodcrushers can -also- be deepstriked and get a banner of blood.
Is a tempting unit to do a conversion for.
A third question to add on to this little queue of questions -
Screamers, Plague Drones, Beasts of Nurgle.
Are any of these good? Are any of these bad?
Screamers seem pretty lacklustre with low attacks and low toughness/saves, but their attacks are pretty strong compared to the Drones (weak attacks but very tough to kill).
Screamers are suprisingly good in my experience. Most non-nurgle daemons are made of paper, but the 4++ rocks. It has incredibly long movement and itts attacks are fantastic.
Mind, thats from a LFGS perspective, not a tournament one.
Abaddon303 wrote: So if I drop the flamer chosen overwatch speed bump, how do people feel about flamers on my cultist screen instead? Worth it?
Meh, it is quite low flamer saturation and you still pay astarte price so, not really, especially when you get 1 3/4 more cultists for a flammer, if i am not mistaken.
Forget about the talk of Combi-Flamers (Chaos knows why it was even being discussed as valid) and go straight for Combi-Bolters. That's 108 points for 6 Chosen with Combi-Bolters.
Now this, I like. Give them free chainswords as well for the inevitable combat too.
So I was considering adding in a screamer unit (converted from canoptek wraiths), or a bloodcrusher unit.
Mathhammer between the two units (3 crushers vs 5 screamers) shows that the roughly equivalent points of bloodcrushers is always doing more damage against all types of targets on a turn where it charges (and bloodcrushers will always be charging).
The screamers will have a couple extra wounds, and a 4++, so I guess will be slightly harder to kill.
The screamer special mortal wounds rule seems pretty poor, but might put out a couple wounds in a game.
I do have flamers in the list though, so potentially room for more tzeentch based synergy with screamers if I go for a full detachment (or at least a tzeentch HQ).
However I definitely have a Daemon Prince of Khorne in the list too, so the bloodcrushers would also get synergy there.
Forget about the talk of Combi-Flamers (Chaos knows why it was even being discussed as valid) and go straight for Combi-Bolters. That's 108 points for 6 Chosen with Combi-Bolters.
Now this, I like. Give them free chainswords as well for the inevitable combat too.
Chainswords were implied of course. It's a free upgrade!
A third question to add on to this little queue of questions -
Screamers, Plague Drones, Beasts of Nurgle.
Are any of these good? Are any of these bad?
Screamers seem pretty lacklustre with low attacks and low toughness/saves, but their attacks are pretty strong compared to the Drones (weak attacks but very tough to kill).
I didn't have much success with beasts unfortunately. They're simply too slow. I could imagine a full unit of them deep striking to tie something up, as 5wounds each is quite nasty. They lack the support other Nurgle units can get, snail guy is even slower than them and one PL too expensive to be woth deep striking.
I can see a Beast or three being worth taking if you’re already sending Horticulous up the table planting trees. If we get AoS 2.0 Summoning, that’ll be a very interesting play, but that’s just speculation.
Plague Drones seem to be doing okay. They benefit a lot more from spells and auras than they do from Epidemius, so you don’t need a lot of moving momentum for them to hit hard. You can quite happily add them to a battalion with DP & Poxbringer or Scrivener, and have no other Nurgle stuff.
Hmm. Movement 10. Thirteen, if you advance with an instrument near a Scrivener. Start next to a tree, and that’s first turn charging material. Iiiiinteresting.
Chainswords were implied of course. It's a free upgrade!
I like the way you think - it also makes the Chosen slightly better value for their points, as you're paying 3pts more than a basic marine for an extra Ld and TWO extra attacks (since the normal CSM can't get chainswords anymore).
All very good points about Chosen. Combi-bolters are probably a better investment if your opponent is coming to you. That said, if you want a unit that gets 5d6 hits on overwatch, and can't be outranged because they still carry bolters...
See. Thats where the idea came from. 135 pts to deter charges. Not a bad choice, but it takes some planning, and a clever tactician.
So I was considering adding in a screamer unit (converted from canoptek wraiths), or a bloodcrusher unit.
Mathhammer between the two units (3 crushers vs 5 screamers) shows that the roughly equivalent points of bloodcrushers is always doing more damage against all types of targets on a turn where it charges (and bloodcrushers will always be charging).
The screamers will have a couple extra wounds, and a 4++, so I guess will be slightly harder to kill.
The screamer special mortal wounds rule seems pretty poor, but might put out a couple wounds in a game.
I do have flamers in the list though, so potentially room for more tzeentch based synergy with screamers if I go for a full detachment (or at least a tzeentch HQ).
However I definitely have a Daemon Prince of Khorne in the list too, so the bloodcrushers would also get synergy there.
Would be interested in any opinions
Bloodcrushers are fairly poor in my experience. They're just slightly faster, slighter tougher bloodletters, who end up giving you less wounds and less overall damage output.
I think you aren't giving enough credit to the screamer. The fact they fly and have a ridiculously high movement allows them far more flexibility in how they attack. Heck, set them behind LoS blocking terrain and charge over it, as a nice suprise attack.
So I was considering adding in a screamer unit (converted from canoptek wraiths), or a bloodcrusher unit.
Mathhammer between the two units (3 crushers vs 5 screamers) shows that the roughly equivalent points of bloodcrushers is always doing more damage against all types of targets on a turn where it charges (and bloodcrushers will always be charging).
The screamers will have a couple extra wounds, and a 4++, so I guess will be slightly harder to kill.
The screamer special mortal wounds rule seems pretty poor, but might put out a couple wounds in a game.
I do have flamers in the list though, so potentially room for more tzeentch based synergy with screamers if I go for a full detachment (or at least a tzeentch HQ).
However I definitely have a Daemon Prince of Khorne in the list too, so the bloodcrushers would also get synergy there.
Would be interested in any opinions
Bloodcrushers are fairly poor in my experience. They're just slightly faster, slighter tougher bloodletters, who end up giving you less wounds and less overall damage output.
I think you aren't giving enough credit to the screamer. The fact they fly and have a ridiculously high movement allows them far more flexibility in how they attack. Heck, set them behind LoS blocking terrain and charge over it, as a nice suprise attack.
I mean, I think you're simplifying the Bloodcrushers a little. Bloodletters don't get 3x S7 attacks on the charge (per bloodcrusher) for a start, 9x S7 attacks can put a dent in most things that bloodletters would just scratch at. Bloodcrushers being S5 at default also means they wound most things a lot easier than bloodletters too.
Bloodletters do get a lot more attacks on the charge though... lets do some math!
...
...
huh, weird. They work out about the same, except against vehicles, where the bloodletters end up better for... some reason.
I'm not even sure why, as 20 bloodletters have 23 attacks and 3 bloodcrushers have 22 attacks that are stronger. But I guess its because 9 of those attacks only have AP-1.
Crushers are tougher and faster though, and you get fairly similar damage out of 3 models instead of having to paint 20 models, which in my book is a pretty big bonus. And the bloodcrusher models are way cooler, which is another big win. (Especially if you use skullcrusher models instead, where they look more like Berzerkers riding rhinos. The bloodletter model in general is awful.)
Screamers flying and being fast is a pretty good ability for sure, but funnily enough, when you compare them to something like raptors (which are considered to be very bad), they actually deal pretty much the same amount of damage (if you take into account plasma+melee). All the screamers get extra is 4" of movement, while the raptors can deepstrike for free. And yet screamers are considered to be good while raptors are apparently awful. (There's also a difference in a 3+ vs a 4++ but against most weapons they pretty much seem to balance out).
It's strange to me how some of these units change from good to garbage with such a tiny difference!
Warpy0013 wrote: All very good points about Chosen. Combi-bolters are probably a better investment if your opponent is coming to you. That said, if you want a unit that gets 5d6 hits on overwatch, and can't be outranged because they still carry bolters...
See. Thats where the idea came from. 135 pts to deter charges. Not a bad choice, but it takes some planning, and a clever tactician.
There's nothing clever about how bad Flamers and Combi-Flamers are. Either way, if you wanted that much Overwatch, Havocs would be better as a denial unit.
So I was considering adding in a screamer unit (converted from canoptek wraiths), or a bloodcrusher unit.
Mathhammer between the two units (3 crushers vs 5 screamers) shows that the roughly equivalent points of bloodcrushers is always doing more damage against all types of targets on a turn where it charges (and bloodcrushers will always be charging).
The screamers will have a couple extra wounds, and a 4++, so I guess will be slightly harder to kill.
The screamer special mortal wounds rule seems pretty poor, but might put out a couple wounds in a game.
I do have flamers in the list though, so potentially room for more tzeentch based synergy with screamers if I go for a full detachment (or at least a tzeentch HQ).
However I definitely have a Daemon Prince of Khorne in the list too, so the bloodcrushers would also get synergy there.
Would be interested in any opinions
Bloodcrushers are fairly poor in my experience. They're just slightly faster, slighter tougher bloodletters, who end up giving you less wounds and less overall damage output.
I think you aren't giving enough credit to the screamer. The fact they fly and have a ridiculously high movement allows them far more flexibility in how they attack. Heck, set them behind LoS blocking terrain and charge over it, as a nice suprise attack.
I mean, I think you're simplifying the Bloodcrushers a little. Bloodletters don't get 3x S7 attacks on the charge (per bloodcrusher) for a start, 9x S7 attacks can put a dent in most things that bloodletters would just scratch at. Bloodcrushers being S5 at default also means they wound most things a lot easier than bloodletters too.
Bloodletters do get a lot more attacks on the charge though... lets do some math!
...
...
huh, weird. They work out about the same, except against vehicles, where the bloodletters end up better for... some reason.
I'm not even sure why, as 20 bloodletters have 23 attacks and 3 bloodcrushers have 22 attacks that are stronger. But I guess its because 9 of those attacks only have AP-1.
Crushers are tougher and faster though, and you get fairly similar damage out of 3 models instead of having to paint 20 models, which in my book is a pretty big bonus. And the bloodcrusher models are way cooler, which is another big win. (Especially if you use skullcrusher models instead, where they look more like Berzerkers riding rhinos. The bloodletter model in general is awful.)
Screamers flying and being fast is a pretty good ability for sure, but funnily enough, when you compare them to something like raptors (which are considered to be very bad), they actually deal pretty much the same amount of damage (if you take into account plasma+melee). All the screamers get extra is 4" of movement, while the raptors can deepstrike for free. And yet screamers are considered to be good while raptors are apparently awful. (There's also a difference in a 3+ vs a 4++ but against most weapons they pretty much seem to balance out).
It's strange to me how some of these units change from good to garbage with such a tiny difference!
I've done the math, and the bloodletter and crushers are generally fairly close, but Bloodletters are actually more durable for the same cost. They get far more wounds, and in my experience i'd much rather take +4 wounds over +1 toughness. Plus, bloodletters are 1 wound models, where Crushers are vulnerable to multi-damage guns. Also, you take that back you loyalist, Bloodletters are great.
Also, Screamers get a 4++ invuln, which is /pretty good/ compared to the standard marine 3+ armor save. Additionally, if you have a unit with high movement, you don't need to even deepstrike. In how many situations is it really any better to deepstrike when you can get 28" (not counting advancing)? It generally means you can just run right up into the face of the enemy, getting you far closer to your chosen charge victim.
The other thing about Bloodcrushers is their opportunity cost. A unit of Bloodletters is a command point, and we eat them like popcorn.
As we work out the damage of Daemon units, we ought to factor in with/without Herald. Screamers can become S7, and a flying Herald of Tzeentch is not an extortionate moving part. (One that’s not uncommon if you’re already investing in Tzeentch daemons.) Main problem I have is their poor accuracy. 4+ to hit, on a predatory can opener that preys on voidships?
Likewise, Bloodcrushers charging with a Herald nearby hit at S7. Again, notable against medium sized tanky stuff.
It’s not AAA stuff, and it’s got some moving parts, and none of them are an Epidemius, but if you want to do a monogod list, or love the models, or play friendlies, there’s tactics that can be brought in to play there.
lindsay40k wrote: The other thing about Bloodcrushers is their opportunity cost. A unit of Bloodletters is a command point, and we eat them like popcorn.
As we work out the damage of Daemon units, we ought to factor in with/without Herald. Screamers can become S7, and a flying Herald of Tzeentch is not an extortionate moving part. (One that’s not uncommon if you’re already investing in Tzeentch daemons.) Main problem I have is their poor accuracy. 4+ to hit, on a predatory can opener that preys on voidships?
Likewise, Bloodcrushers charging with a Herald nearby hit at S7. Again, notable against medium sized tanky stuff.
It’s not AAA stuff, and it’s got some moving parts, and none of them are an Epidemius, but if you want to do a monogod list, or love the models, or play friendlies, there’s tactics that can be brought in to play there.
But the Crushers are only doing 1 damage a piece (2 on a 6). You generally don't want to be even going after tanks with them in my experience. Use them to bully smaller targets, in my experience they're fantastic biker and terminator hunters.
lindsay40k wrote: If you’re going to get within 12” of an Ork horde, it seems sensible to assume you’re going to get charged by them. Auto hits on overwatch vs saving 90pts. Hmm.
Very good point too.
Why would you ever infiltrate this close?
Aren't like ... 90% of all infiltrate plans all about infiltrating within 12"? Either for the ability to have a guaranteed charge, or for rapid-fire plasma? (Or I guess even Melta, but I would expect that to be impossible with proper screens set up).
Of course, half the time you don't get first turn, so the plans have to change. But if you do get first turn, it's all about the 9"/12" infiltrate.
At least thats what I thought, are a lot of people somehow infiltrating 24"+ away and making use of it?
A) you infiltrate after determinig who goes first. (armies aswell as who has the first turn advantage determines how much you will infiltrate or how deep.)
B) you often infiltrate that way to eliminate key targets as part of an alpha strike, a green tide however has it's key component hidden and or is so numerous that combi weaponry will not have enough burst rof to dent it.
Which leads to to the possibility of C) defense in depth.
I'm not sure how your point about infiltrating after the dice roll relates to what I was saying. I know that's how it works. But when you make a list, and have units planned, and you plan ahead with what you'd like to do with those units, it's always with the hope of getting first turn.
Hence 90% of plans being, essentially, "get first turn, infiltrate within 12", blast/charge the enemy".
Of course if you don't get first turn, then you use plan B. But that doesn't change was your initial plan WAS, it just means your plan failed due to not getting first turn.
Which is one reason I kinda dislike the Alpha Legion stratagem. Its very powerful in 50% of games, and fairly useless in the other 50%. You do still get to place those units after your opponent has finished deployment, so there is some value in that to put things in decently defensive positions, but its nowhere near as good as "First turn 60 berserkers guaranteed charge".
Edit:
While I'm on the subject of Alpha Legion, what do people actually think of the warlord trait?
It's very fluffy, and I like it in theory, but as you get random traits on top of the warlord switcheroo, if runs the risk of you getting fairly unhelpful traits (such as extra death to the false emperor rolls, when you're playing against tau).
It also requires you taking at least 3 Alpha Legion HQ's to really get the most from it, and that's fine if you're doing mono-Alpha but it's a points sink if you're planning to play some varied detachments like daemons or something.
Just wondered if people play with it, or pick a different fixed trait for their warlord.
I personally find AL's trait to be excellent and I enjoy playing with it. If your running a warlord like lord arkos for example then almost every trait is beneficial. Particularly since not giving up StW is what the trait really says. Its just a delay in picking your trait for the actual warlord.. or from another angle if taking this trait on a sui character then select what you would have otherwise once the character is dead.
On the topic of speed bumps why the chosen again? As opposed to say.. 30 cultists with 3 flamers. These will control board space and dictate pile in better plus tide of traitors..
If chosen are for cool factor maybe consider them for another task like infiltrating plasma and/or take noise marines. BM and blasters over combi bolters with doom siren for a bit of overwatch. I'm using these dudes as AL headhunters since its the closest thing I could find to suit the models I could think of.
dominuschao wrote:
I personally find AL's trait to be excellent and I enjoy playing with it. If your running a warlord like lord arkos for example then almost every trait is beneficial. Particularly since not giving up StW is what the trait really says. Its just a delay in picking your trait for the actual warlord.. or from another angle if taking this trait on a sui character then select what you would have otherwise once the character is dead.
On the topic of speed bumps why the chosen again? As opposed to say.. 30 cultists with 3 flamers. These will control board space and dictate pile in better plus tide of traitors..
If chosen are for cool factor maybe consider them for another task like infiltrating plasma and/or take noise marines. BM and blasters over combi bolters with doom siren for a bit of overwatch. I'm using these dudes as AL headhunters since its the closest thing I could find to suit the models I could think of.
Just some thoughts.
Yeh, I've had others say that the ability to throw a warlord at the enemy without risking losing slay the warlord is a pretty decent effect, which makes sense, I just wasn't sure how much of an advantage that was. Seems it's not so bad. HOWEVER you seem to be saying that you still get to select your warlord trait on top of Alpharius, but you can't, you HAVE to roll the dice for it you can't select one. So you could get the Eternal Vendetta one, which only works against Astartes, even if your opponent is Tau.
On the subject of Chosen, I can only assume that the person who originally asked was someone who wanted to take a unit of 5/10 marine models, instead of having to paint 30 identical cultists. Which leads on to my next reply quite nicely...
vaklor4 wrote:
I've done the math, and the bloodletter and crushers are generally fairly close, but Bloodletters are actually more durable for the same cost. They get far more wounds, and in my experience i'd much rather take +4 wounds over +1 toughness. Plus, bloodletters are 1 wound models, where Crushers are vulnerable to multi-damage guns. Also, you take that back you loyalist, Bloodletters are great.
Also, Screamers get a 4++ invuln, which is /pretty good/ compared to the standard marine 3+ armor save. Additionally, if you have a unit with high movement, you don't need to even deepstrike. In how many situations is it really any better to deepstrike when you can get 28" (not counting advancing)? It generally means you can just run right up into the face of the enemy, getting you far closer to your chosen charge victim.
Yeh, Bloodletters are probably the better choice, but for myself personally I would much prefer an army with a variety of small units with cool models, than painting a bloodletter bomb of 60 identical 'letters.
I know there are people out there (and on here) who have 60 bloodletters and 120 cultists and 200 horrors... but personally I couldn't think of anything more boring to paint or to play. Just my personal preferance.
It's just a shame that 8th is heavily biased in favour of horde armies, to the point where a non-horde based army like marines and chaos -still- tries to find ways to play spammed hordes.
I know my approach won't ever win tournaments, but I only play with friends so I just want a decent fun army that can wont get steamrolled every game.
Which I assume links up with the guy who wants to play chosen. Less models, try and get the most out of them, put up a fight even though the competitive option is 40 cultists.
dominuschao wrote:
I personally find AL's trait to be excellent and I enjoy playing with it. If your running a warlord like lord arkos for example then almost every trait is beneficial. Particularly since not giving up StW is what the trait really says. Its just a delay in picking your trait for the actual warlord.. or from another angle if taking this trait on a sui character then select what you would have otherwise once the character is dead.
On the topic of speed bumps why the chosen again? As opposed to say.. 30 cultists with 3 flamers. These will control board space and dictate pile in better plus tide of traitors..
If chosen are for cool factor maybe consider them for another task like infiltrating plasma and/or take noise marines. BM and blasters over combi bolters with doom siren for a bit of overwatch. I'm using these dudes as AL headhunters since its the closest thing I could find to suit the models I could think of.
Just some thoughts.
Yeh, I've had others say that the ability to throw a warlord at the enemy without risking losing slay the warlord is a pretty decent effect, which makes sense, I just wasn't sure how much of an advantage that was. Seems it's not so bad. HOWEVER you seem to be saying that you still get to select your warlord trait on top of Alpharius, but you can't, you HAVE to roll the dice for it you can't select one. So you could get the Eternal Vendetta one, which only works against Astartes, even if your opponent is Tau.
On the subject of Chosen, I can only assume that the person who originally asked was someone who wanted to take a unit of 5/10 marine models, instead of having to paint 30 identical cultists. Which leads on to my next reply quite nicely...
vaklor4 wrote:
I've done the math, and the bloodletter and crushers are generally fairly close, but Bloodletters are actually more durable for the same cost. They get far more wounds, and in my experience i'd much rather take +4 wounds over +1 toughness. Plus, bloodletters are 1 wound models, where Crushers are vulnerable to multi-damage guns. Also, you take that back you loyalist, Bloodletters are great.
Also, Screamers get a 4++ invuln, which is /pretty good/ compared to the standard marine 3+ armor save. Additionally, if you have a unit with high movement, you don't need to even deepstrike. In how many situations is it really any better to deepstrike when you can get 28" (not counting advancing)? It generally means you can just run right up into the face of the enemy, getting you far closer to your chosen charge victim.
Yeh, Bloodletters are probably the better choice, but for myself personally I would much prefer an army with a variety of small units with cool models, than painting a bloodletter bomb of 60 identical 'letters.
I know there are people out there (and on here) who have 60 bloodletters and 120 cultists and 200 horrors... but personally I couldn't think of anything more boring to paint or to play. Just my personal preferance.
It's just a shame that 8th is heavily biased in favour of horde armies, to the point where a non-horde based army like marines and chaos -still- tries to find ways to play spammed hordes.
I know my approach won't ever win tournaments, but I only play with friends so I just want a decent fun army that can wont get steamrolled every game.
Which I assume links up with the guy who wants to play chosen. Less models, try and get the most out of them, put up a fight even though the competitive option is 40 cultists.
An army is only a non-horde army if it can operate without hordes. So far, that's not true for Daemons, and most CSM. It's like saying Tau isn't a gunline because last edition you could play nothing but suits and make it work.
Yeh, I've had others say that the ability to throw a warlord at the enemy without risking losing slay the warlord is a pretty decent effect, which makes sense, I just wasn't sure how much of an advantage that was. Seems it's not so bad. HOWEVER you seem to be saying that you still get to select your warlord trait on top of Alpharius, but you can't, you HAVE to roll the dice for it you can't select one. So you could get the Eternal Vendetta one, which only works against Astartes, even if your opponent is Tau.
On the subject of Chosen, I can only assume that the person who originally asked was someone who wanted to take a unit of 5/10 marine models, instead of having to paint 30 identical cultists. Which leads on to my next reply quite nicely...
That is what I was saying. However I've been out of the game for awhile playing T9A until recently. The early consensus was subsequent traits are chosen not randomly selected.. is that no longer the case?
You "generate" a new warlord trait. The wording would suggest you just choose, but the only wording for warlord traits that suggest a "generation" is the random roll. But I think that's going way too far into semantics. I'd say you choose.
vaklor4 wrote: You "generate" a new warlord trait. The wording would suggest you just choose, but the only wording for warlord traits that suggest a "generation" is the random roll. But I think that's going way too far into semantics. I'd say you choose.
...Wow, i've been posting a LOT on this thread.
Interesting, I had assumed that 'generate' means rolling for the trait, simply because otherwise the Alpharius trait is straight up better than taking any normal trait (as you get a normal trait of your choice, plus the alpharius trait!)
I'm happy to play it as a choice though, makes it way more consistent!
An army is only a non-horde army if it can operate without hordes. So far, that's not true for Daemons, and most CSM. It's like saying Tau isn't a gunline because last edition you could play nothing but suits and make it work.
That may well be true for 8th, but it doesn't mean we have to like it.
I mean by that logic, every army is a horde army other than... Knights, and Custodes.
And even Knights and Custodes armies that end up taking a CP battery and/or horde of IG end up being stronger for it.
vaklor4 wrote: You "generate" a new warlord trait. The wording would suggest you just choose, but the only wording for warlord traits that suggest a "generation" is the random roll. But I think that's going way too far into semantics. I'd say you choose.
...Wow, i've been posting a LOT on this thread.
Interesting, I had assumed that 'generate' means rolling for the trait, simply because otherwise the Alpharius trait is straight up better than taking any normal trait (as you get a normal trait of your choice, plus the alpharius trait!)
I'm happy to play it as a choice though, makes it way more consistent!
An army is only a non-horde army if it can operate without hordes. So far, that's not true for Daemons, and most CSM. It's like saying Tau isn't a gunline because last edition you could play nothing but suits and make it work.
That may well be true for 8th, but it doesn't mean we have to like it.
I mean by that logic, every army is a horde army other than... Knights, and Custodes.
And even Knights and Custodes armies that end up taking a CP battery and/or horde of IG end up being stronger for it.
Outside of tournaments, that logic that I presented is far less true. Hell, I just won a game today with a Mastodon. In non-competitive tournaments or just friendly games, almost anything can work...But this is the tactics thread, where generally you're trying to find the best for your army's needs.
In the best terms, for the strongest results, go horde in most situations for almost any army in the game...Except for T-sons, because their HQs are freakin' nuts right now.
I don't use Obliterators, but other guys do. They are more effective as a shield for a buffing character in your deployment zone. With a 24" weapon and no bonus to being closer to the enemy, there is no reason to teleport in. With their small footprint, you can easily fit them in cover (and should). 9 wounds at 1+ isn't going anywhere unless you suck at rolling saves. Teleporting them closer is just giving them to your enemy.
Might as well teleport them in on T1 in your deployment zone if you're going to do that. That way you get to position them after your opponent's T1 move if you end up going second. In fact I can't see any scenarios where teleporting isn't the right move. Unless somehow your character literally has no other screen. You can always drop them on top of your buffing character as soon as it's your turn.
I don't use Obliterators, but other guys do. They are more effective as a shield for a buffing character in your deployment zone. With a 24" weapon and no bonus to being closer to the enemy, there is no reason to teleport in. With their small footprint, you can easily fit them in cover (and should). 9 wounds at 1+ isn't going anywhere unless you suck at rolling saves. Teleporting them closer is just giving them to your enemy.
Might as well teleport them in on T1 in your deployment zone if you're going to do that. That way you get to position them after your opponent's T1 move if you end up going second. In fact I can't see any scenarios where teleporting isn't the right move. Unless somehow your character literally has no other screen. You can always drop them on top of your buffing character as soon as it's your turn.
Well, your opponent may also be fast enough to screw up your own deployment zone in T1 for deepstrikers...
Delightful Agonies was awesome on my land raider, real quick, and the machine worked out awesomely.
Never got tied up in melee.
Unfortunately 2/3 of my opponents played IG parking lots that I just couldn't keep up with, considering the FLGS has no LoS blocking terrain (and when it does, it's in a corner, and Wyverns).
I'm my above photos, what would be helpful vs that firing range lack of LoS terrain? I'm thinking of infiltrating 15 possessed and possibly 40 cultists to tie up what they can reach in melee, with the drake and warptimed prince.
I don't own predators for a counter shootout and my havoks are 4 autocannon, 2 missiles, 2 heavy bolters. No oblits :(
Dactylartha wrote: I'm my above photos, what would be helpful vs that firing range lack of LoS terrain? I'm thinking of infiltrating 15 possessed and possibly 40 cultists to tie up what they can reach in melee, with the drake and warptimed prince.
I don't own predators for a counter shootout and my havoks are 4 autocannon, 2 missiles, 2 heavy bolters. No oblits :(
-Don't use possesed. You'd be better off with chosen and even those are to pricy for what they can do. Take a look at the cult marines instead, especially Khorneberzerkers can profit massivly from an infilitration, Noise marines also can do decent shenaniganry.
-Havocs aren't half bad either and your weaponry is decent enough, allbeit the rocket launchers are now compared to autocannons and lascannons a bit to pricy imo. They also can do plasma shenaniganry like the chosen but are cheaper for the same durability.
-40 Cultists could be used instead for your non infiltrating units as a blob of cover, they have anyways tide of traitors which brings them back even after near total anahilation in the right positions forwards so no need for infiltration. Or you infiltrate at the start, with assult guns and slaanesh double shooting aswell as VotlW and watch as nearly anything dies in a bullethose that makes punisher leman russes look bad. (Afterwards feel free to charge whatever is left to tie up the enemy)
-Alternate take, go soviet union on your enemy. (Iron warriors warlord trait + 40 man blobs.)
My berserkers are at the moment in the land raider. Was thinking of using the possessed because they won't kill what they surround and can trap a flank so they don't get shot up when the other guy gets his turn, same with cult. Berzerkers will kill too many things and expose themselves. I love my possessed but man they're so over priced for a medicore fighter.
Was debating Skarbrand: would give fearless but I'm not allowed to use non-auxiliary detachments outside CSM codex, and he'd have to hoof it up the board with the army (and would force everything to be Khorne marked eliminating my sorcerers). Not attractive. And on top of that, the competitors at my FLGS like their las-cannon tanks.
My berserkers are at the moment in the land raider. Was thinking of using the possessed because they won't kill what they surround and can trap a flank so they don't get shot up when the other guy gets his turn, same with cult. Berzerkers will kill too many things and expose themselves. I love my possessed but man they're so over priced for a medicore fighter.
Was debating Skarbrand: would give fearless but I'm not allowed to use non-auxiliary detachments outside CSM codex, and he'd have to hoof it up the board with the army (and would force everything to be Khorne marked eliminating my sorcerers). Not attractive. And on top of that, the competitors at my FLGS like their las-cannon tanks.
Killing things too quickly would've been a problem in 7th. If you don't kill it this edition, the unit will just fall back, meaning they're still alive to hold an objective and then your unit gets shot.
Dactylartha wrote: Not if you encircle it, you can't get shot if it's stuck in nelee with you.
I play IG and Daemons and in my experience it's way too easy to avoid being encircled by zerkers, it's too easy to spread out and make it near impossible when you see the charge coming. What you really want to do is charge one unit and pilenin real close to another one(that you didn't charge but is next to unit you charging), that way when you wipe the squad to charged you can consolidate into the second squad. They can still fall back and leave you exposed but you've at least killed one unit and taken another unit out of their shooting phase for a turn so hopefully less dakka at you.
That’s a pretty rough map, @Dactylartha. I faced something similar but with Long Fangs and a Spartan against my Slaanesh Daemonkin. I gambled the house on a super-buffed Heldrake eating their Rune Priest T1, whilst my Defilers and Maulerfiend ran the gauntlet. It did work out when my Smites started getting into range and my Fiends of Slaanesh started forcing enemy units to stay in combat and and take their punishment. If anything can get a unit to reach a gunline, it’s Warptime and DA.
Dactylartha wrote: Not if you encircle it, you can't get shot if it's stuck in nelee with you.
You can't bank on encircling when the opponent can pick casualties. One model to morale? Lose that one that is trapped of course.
I completely agree and understand, though the strategy would be to try to encircle a vehicle.
Regardless, it's very risky gamble. Even with a 7' move, the possessed would need roughly 6+" charge (getting reroll) without a blocked path to get a model to all 4 sides of the tank. If i can manage to encircle the vehicle and touch with pile-in/consolidate the other units, I want to believe that could shut down a handful of non-Ultramarine non-flyer shooters. I don't want to charge every unit, just the one, so only that thing gets to overwatch.
What I'm asking, is how to accomplish that, and my current plan would be the possessed and cultists (and helldrake and whatever is warptimed)
lindsay40k wrote: Has anyone tried AL Raptors? Deep strike deployment then 12” move...
Interesting, and a whole lot cheaper than possessed. Unfortunately I only have 5. 12" move after 9.1" distance deployment would make wrapping a whole lot easier.
lindsay40k wrote: Has anyone tried AL Raptors? Deep strike deployment then 12” move...
Interesting, and a whole lot cheaper than possessed. Unfortunately I only have 5. 12" move after 9.1" distance deployment would make wrapping a whole lot easier.
On this note, it’s worth remembering that Raptors (and Warp Talons, and Plague Drones, and Screamers, and you get the idea) seem to be able to finish a charge on the opposite side of the model’s they charged.
Potentially even do it as a pile-in, if base sizes permit.
At least until we win a tournament with it and it gets closed down
15 bare-bones raptors = 255 pts. With icon and 3 special gear dudes ~300 pts, only a little cheaper than possessed, but a lot more maneuverable.
Seems like a fun trick that I'm not going to buy and paint 2 more boxes of raptors to try out (before it gets FAQd out anyway). Probably not anyway. If I had the models I'd probably go with it.
Possessed would obviously be more durable to different kinds of weapons but we aren't looking for any tanking in this situation. At least they kinda have a niche this edition compared to previous editions?
Dactylartha wrote: 15 bare-bones raptors = 255 pts. With icon and 3 special gear dudes ~300 pts, only a little cheaper than possessed, but a lot more maneuverable.
Seems like a fun trick that I'm not going to buy and paint 2 more boxes of raptors to try out (before it gets FAQd out anyway). Probably not anyway. If I had the models I'd probably go with it.
I don't see why they'd FAQ it out now, every fly unit in the game has been able to do this for over a year now and they haven't done anything about it yet.
And it's in no way overpowered... it's literally the whole point of having a <FLY> character (being able to jump over enemies/obstacles)
So I just impulse-bought Cypher because he looks effin cool. How do I make him work? Just field him with Plasma Fallen and call it a day or are there more intricate tactics involved here?
BertBert wrote: So I just impulse-bought Cypher because he looks effin cool. How do I make him work? Just field him with Plasma Fallen and call it a day or are there more intricate tactics involved here?
Cypher tactics are hard because he has to foot slog. Like most other characters, he's going to be moving across the board behind other units.
One of the things he has that no other Chaos unit has is the Imperium keyword. There are a few auras that buff all units with the Imperium keyword and you can take advantage of that. Gulliman, for example, buffs all Imperium units in 12 inches with +1 to advance and charge rolls. Remember, Cypher can fall back & advance AND shoot his pistols, so something like this could actually be useful. I would have to look at the Index, but I'm pretty sure Inquisitors have similar auras.
Using your opponent's auras is not much, but it's something. With regards to Plasma Fallen - they're not worth it. Think about the number of cultists you get for the same cost.
BertBert wrote: So I just impulse-bought Cypher because he looks effin cool. How do I make him work? Just field him with Plasma Fallen and call it a day or are there more intricate tactics involved here?
Cypher tactics are hard because he has to foot slog. Like most other characters, he's going to be moving across the board behind other units.
One of the things he has that no other Chaos unit has is the Imperium keyword. There are a few auras that buff all units with the Imperium keyword and you can take advantage of that. Gulliman, for example, buffs all Imperium units in 12 inches with +1 to advance and charge rolls. Remember, Cypher can fall back & advance AND shoot his pistols, so something like this could actually be useful. I would have to look at the Index, but I'm pretty sure Inquisitors have similar auras.
Using your opponent's auras is not much, but it's something. With regards to Plasma Fallen - they're not worth it. Think about the number of cultists you get for the same cost.
You know, I never considered that Cypher could in theory use enemy auras... don't those I checked and yeh they specify 'friendly imperial' so no Cypher can't use enemy auras against them.
Which is a shame cos that would be an interesting quirk for the character and might actually give him some use. At the moment though the fallen and cypher seem fairly useless. Give them a vehicle though and things would be a bit different.
"Think about the number of cultists you get for the same cost" - This could very easily be the answer any of the unit choices in the codex though, which is why I limit my number of cultists to a sensible number. Otherwise things would be very boring.
(Even though a 2000 point cultist game with ... 10x 40-man squads, so 400 cultists, and a couple of HQ's, does sound like fun in theory, I don't think anyone is going to run that kind of game more than once lol.
How do 400-odd Cultists do against 300-odd Poxwalkers?
Assume HQ tax is Typhus buffing their T, and a Sorcerer on Palanquin Warptiming them. Also a Blightbringer is making them advance quicker. Maybe a Tallyman as well?
lindsay40k wrote: How do 400-odd Cultists do against 300-odd Poxwalkers?
Assume HQ tax is Typhus buffing their T, and a Sorcerer on Palanquin Warptiming them. Also a Blightbringer is making them advance quicker. Maybe a Tallyman as well?
Do poxwallkers have a "tide of traitors equivalent?
Since that would with hq tax considered mean that you bring over capacity in pts (basically instead of 1600pts Cultist field in essence 1760 with tide)
Poxwallkers are also melee only so kinda unflexible.
lindsay40k wrote: How do 400-odd Cultists do against 300-odd Poxwalkers?
Assume HQ tax is Typhus buffing their T, and a Sorcerer on Palanquin Warptiming them. Also a Blightbringer is making them advance quicker. Maybe a Tallyman as well?
Do poxwallkers have a "tide of traitors equivalent?
Since that would with hq tax considered mean that you bring over capacity in pts (basically instead of 1600pts Cultist field in essence 1760 with tide)
Poxwallkers are also melee only so kinda unflexible.
Well, Poxwalkers gain a model for every enemy infantry they kill in the fight phase, so if the enemy has a bunch of cultists of their own it might rack up a few extra bodies.
Also they have a stratagem which makes that rule even more efficient in theory, but only if you have non-poxwalkers around you, so probably not so good if you're fielding a 300 poxwalker only list.
lindsay40k wrote: How do 400-odd Cultists do against 300-odd Poxwalkers?
Assume HQ tax is Typhus buffing their T, and a Sorcerer on Palanquin Warptiming them. Also a Blightbringer is making them advance quicker. Maybe a Tallyman as well?
Do poxwallkers have a "tide of traitors equivalent?
Since that would with hq tax considered mean that you bring over capacity in pts (basically instead of 1600pts Cultist field in essence 1760 with tide)
Poxwallkers are also melee only so kinda unflexible.
Well, Poxwalkers gain a model for every enemy infantry they kill in the fight phase, so if the enemy has a bunch of cultists of their own it might rack up a few extra bodies.
Also they have a stratagem which makes that rule even more efficient in theory, but only if you have non-poxwalkers around you, so probably not so good if you're fielding a 300 poxwalker only list.
In matched play you have to pay reinforcement points for each and every Poxwalker you get in this way over the unit's starting strength (as per the last big FAQ, which nerfed the Poxwalker Farm lists). To me Poxwalkers became garbage once they implemented that, but they were being widely abused.
Let’s assume the Cultists have Abaddon.
75% of their shots hit
33% of them wound, so 25% aggregate
67% of them get past DR, so 17% final aggregate
400 Cultists firing at long range kill 67 Poxwalkers
Next turn, assume that the Poxwalkers are close enough that half the Cultists can double tap. Another 100 Poxwalkers die
A unit of Poxwalkers gets into combat and have enough numbers for the +1 to hit.
75% of their attacks hit.
66% of their hits wound, so 50% aggregate
83% of their wounds get through armour, so 41% final aggregate
Assume the Cultists have been prioritising the closer units and there’s only 20 Poxwalkers left in this unit. If you’ve popped Prescience or VotLW, that’ll probably pip 50% and kill 20 Cultists whilst reviving 20 Poxwalkers
Current likely numbers: 140-160 Poxwalkers, 380 Cultists
Surviving Cultists fall back, remaining 360 Cultists Kill 122 Poxwalkers
20-40 Poxwalkers are lucky to survive overwatch and if they do will be ripped apart by weight of numbers and enveloped to deny places to put risen dead
lindsay40k wrote: How do 400-odd Cultists do against 300-odd Poxwalkers?
Assume HQ tax is Typhus buffing their T, and a Sorcerer on Palanquin Warptiming them. Also a Blightbringer is making them advance quicker. Maybe a Tallyman as well?
Do poxwallkers have a "tide of traitors equivalent?
Since that would with hq tax considered mean that you bring over capacity in pts (basically instead of 1600pts Cultist field in essence 1760 with tide)
Poxwallkers are also melee only so kinda unflexible.
Well, Poxwalkers gain a model for every enemy infantry they kill in the fight phase, so if the enemy has a bunch of cultists of their own it might rack up a few extra bodies.
Also they have a stratagem which makes that rule even more efficient in theory, but only if you have non-poxwalkers around you, so probably not so good if you're fielding a 300 poxwalker only list.
In matched play you have to pay reinforcement points for each and every Poxwalker you get in this way over the unit's starting strength (as per the last big FAQ, which nerfed the Poxwalker Farm lists). To me Poxwalkers became garbage once they implemented that, but they were being widely abused.
"Over the units starting strength" is the important part there, poxwalkers are likely to have taken casualties on their way to the enemy, so it's still free to replenish their ranks, they just cant go above what they had to start with. So go for big units and run them in front of all the guns.
How are World Eaters against Necrons? Should I bring some Daemons or T-sons to support? Ive literally never faced the army before, so im curious how the match up goes.
Frankly the poxwalker nerf was justified, no argument there.
What really breaks the whole comparison is that Cultists will have more actual dmg phases and less dmg taken compared to the melee only poxwalkers.
Simply put: I get approximatly 2 turns of shooting before poxwalkers get into melee. (manouvres might give me a 3rd shooting phase and if that happens the poxwalkers "should"* beginn really to falter compared)
Then there are stratagems involved, at that size we can estimate around 5 cp atleast, more likely 10 + (since both armies will be battleforged) . Now let's assume the cultist player saves 2 cp for tide (to gain 160 pts recycling+ outflanking cultists and to potentially deny further bodies for the poxwalkers) he still has atleast 3x-5x the slaneshy doublefire stratagem avilable if his cultists are slanesh, or VotlW to support his t3 autoguns.
*never underestimate dice luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: How are World Eaters against Necrons? Should I bring some Daemons or T-sons to support? Ive literally never faced the army before, so im curious how the match up goes.
Necrons atm are in a tough spot, destroyers i heard are nasty though so maybee watch out for them.
Also always try to destroy whole units of warriors, else you will have to deal with them again and again.
vaklor4 wrote: How are World Eaters against Necrons? Should I bring some Daemons or T-sons to support? Ive literally never faced the army before, so im curious how the match up goes.
I play against Necrons often, and don't usually fare well. Their blobs are usually pretty large, so they take up board space and kinda form natural screens for their units from your melee. Destroyers do a lot of dmg and have a 10" fly move, so they're awfully hard to pin down and kick off the board, especially if they're in cover. Cultists get eaten up by tesla, deathmarks will intercept and ruin your deep strike plans.
A C'tan is a nasty thing and don't underestimate its punchyness.
You'll want to focus on one unit at a time. Zerkers are great but you'll want rhinos to protect them. Most Necron range is 24" so you'll want ways to sprint into melee, like warptime or advance and charge ability/relic. I like the black mace. Bring 2 dmg and d3 dmg weapons to avoid quantum shielding shenanigans and to help with multi-wound models. They have no psyker per se so if you brought some Sons your spells won't be denied, and death hex is nice for wraiths but not much else. I have luck with terminators, daemon prince, contemptor, zerkers, and possessed.
Basically, choose your targets and focus down a unit at a time, try to stay in combat, and make sure you can get past that 24" distance into range. I'd bring a battalion for sure so you can at least once fight again strat and interrupt vs a C'tan or Lord with scythe. Let us know how it goes!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, make sure you understand what his relic does before you start your deployment.
Is there a special Kill Team detachment for 40k matched play? Or do you just run a patrol detachment? I looked at the Gellerpox units and they seem decent for the points.
vaklor4 wrote: How are World Eaters against Necrons? Should I bring some Daemons or T-sons to support? Ive literally never faced the army before, so im curious how the match up goes.
Honestly Necrons aren't doing great. Only thing to be wary of is the Vaults, and otherwise you're good to go. You gotta try and wipe out units in one go if they have Fly though. Fly is an obnoxious bonus. Otherwise, the need to wipe out most units is kinda not necessary. Does it matter if Warriors keep coming back when they do absolutely no damage in melee?
vaklor4 wrote: How are World Eaters against Necrons? Should I bring some Daemons or T-sons to support? Ive literally never faced the army before, so im curious how the match up goes.
Some math.
A 157 point squad of bezerkers (7 bezerkers all melee, 1 champ pfist, icon)
Is dealing ...
9.4 damage against a T7 4++ model. (Fighting twice)
+ votlw it's 13.2 damage.
+ Dark Apostle it's 17.6 damage
+ Exalted Champion it's 22.3 damage
So if you votlw + fight a third time you'll probably be able to take a Tesseract Vault down multiple profiles for 4CP and 157 points. Dark Apostle and Exalted Champ are just a nice bonus to secure the kill.
Just make sure to put your dudes in rhinos so they survive mortal wounds.
If your opponent isn't using vaults then you'll be find playing normally. Pay attention to gun ranges, and rapidfire.
BertBert wrote: So I just impulse-bought Cypher because he looks effin cool. How do I make him work? Just field him with Plasma Fallen and call it a day or are there more intricate tactics involved here?
Cypher tactics are hard because he has to foot slog. Like most other characters, he's going to be moving across the board behind other units.
One of the things he has that no other Chaos unit has is the Imperium keyword. There are a few auras that buff all units with the Imperium keyword and you can take advantage of that. Gulliman, for example, buffs all Imperium units in 12 inches with +1 to advance and charge rolls. Remember, Cypher can fall back & advance AND shoot his pistols, so something like this could actually be useful. I would have to look at the Index, but I'm pretty sure Inquisitors have similar auras.
Using your opponent's auras is not much, but it's something. With regards to Plasma Fallen - they're not worth it. Think about the number of cultists you get for the same cost.
You know, I never considered that Cypher could in theory use enemy auras... don't those I checked and yeh they specify 'friendly imperial' so no Cypher can't use enemy auras against them.
Which is a shame cos that would be an interesting quirk for the character and might actually give him some use. At the moment though the fallen and cypher seem fairly useless. Give them a vehicle though and things would be a bit different.
"Think about the number of cultists you get for the same cost" - This could very easily be the answer any of the unit choices in the codex though, which is why I limit my number of cultists to a sensible number. Otherwise things would be very boring.
(Even though a 2000 point cultist game with ... 10x 40-man squads, so 400 cultists, and a couple of HQ's, does sound like fun in theory, I don't think anyone is going to run that kind of game more than once lol.
Yeah, maybe I should have looked at datasheets before I posted. It's the only theoretical advantage I can see to using Cypher.
Sure, you could replace any unit with Cultists. It just seems so much more logical with Fallen.
Yeah, one unit of them is a pretty handy plasma gunline. You might be able to make one of that work. Three of them, and Cypher? That’s a hell of an investment. Actually, they don’t get a LEGION trait, so I suppose there’s niche things to do with a single unit. But even then, losing LEGION perks on the rest of the Detachment is probably not worth it?
Tbh the only reason to use Cypher and Fallen is for narrative or open play. Their lack of good keywords neuters them, especially with the battle brothers FAQ rules.
lindsay40k wrote: But even then, losing LEGION perks on the rest of the Detachment is probably not worth it?
It's frustrating, because the beta Battle Brothers rule completely undoes the work of this little gem (P157): "The inclusion of Fabius Bile or FALLEN units in a detachment does not prevent other units in that detachment from gaining a legion trait. However Fabius Bile and the FALLEN units can never themselves benefit from a legion trait"
I mean what's the point of that rule if the inclusion of said Fallen unit in a normal Legion detachment stops said detachment from being Battle Forged?
I wonder if the FAQ/Chapter Approved will be updated somehow to allow Fallen to be included in Legion detachments without breaking that detachments eligibility to be Battle Forged? Because currently you're very limited to how you can include Fallen in your army outside of a Patrol or Vanguard detachment?
lindsay40k wrote: But even then, losing LEGION perks on the rest of the Detachment is probably not worth it?
It's frustrating, because the beta Battle Brothers rule completely undoes the work of this little gem (P157): "The inclusion of Fabius Bile or FALLEN units in a detachment does not prevent other units in that detachment from gaining a legion trait. However Fabius Bile and the FALLEN units can never themselves benefit from a legion trait"
I mean what's the point of that rule if the inclusion of said Fallen unit in a normal Legion detachment stops said detachment from being Battle Forged?
I wonder if the FAQ/Chapter Approved will be updated somehow to allow Fallen to be included in Legion detachments without breaking that detachments eligibility to be Battle Forged? Because currently you're very limited to how you can include Fallen in your army outside of a Patrol or Vanguard detachment?
I'm a little confused by this.... I mean yes, battle brothers overrides the previous rules for what makes up a detachment, basically just by removing Imperium and Chaos as usable faction keywords. Fine.
But the Fallen rule states clearly that including them in a detachment does not prevent other units gaining a legion trait. Doesn't put any limits on the rule, just says that including the Fallen does not prevent legion traits.
So I don't see why battle brothers needs to be altered, when the rule for Fallen (and Fabius) already works fine as is.
Even though Fallen only have <Chaos>, their rule specifies that including them doesn't interfere with legion traits. Job already done, isn't it?
(Just to say I haven't played with fabius or fallen, I just don't see the problem raw)
I used to use my fallen and Cypher a lot in small games, they were great extra plasma bodies on a 4x4, especially since I was just getting started in 40k last year. Cypher is really deceptive with how much dmg he dishes against unarmored dudes.
Battle brothers clearly wasn't meant to exclude fallen from a detachment. I don't think GW cares at all though, since no one played them in a competitive table.
I wrote to GW and asked them to clarify, or edit battle brothers to exclude fallen from that exception, or to edit the fallen rules to give them another keyword like mark or astartes or some other special rule. No reply, obviously, but if enough people write maybe they'll throw us a bone.
Wishlist: fallen get heretic astartes and adeptusc astartes and mark keywords, and can infiltrate like raven/alpha.
lindsay40k wrote: But even then, losing LEGION perks on the rest of the Detachment is probably not worth it?
It's frustrating, because the beta Battle Brothers rule completely undoes the work of this little gem (P157): "The inclusion of Fabius Bile or FALLEN units in a detachment does not prevent other units in that detachment from gaining a legion trait. However Fabius Bile and the FALLEN units can never themselves benefit from a legion trait"
I mean what's the point of that rule if the inclusion of said Fallen unit in a normal Legion detachment stops said detachment from being Battle Forged?
I wonder if the FAQ/Chapter Approved will be updated somehow to allow Fallen to be included in Legion detachments without breaking that detachments eligibility to be Battle Forged? Because currently you're very limited to how you can include Fallen in your army outside of a Patrol or Vanguard detachment?
I'm a little confused by this.... I mean yes, battle brothers overrides the previous rules for what makes up a detachment, basically just by removing Imperium and Chaos as usable faction keywords. Fine.
But the Fallen rule states clearly that including them in a detachment does not prevent other units gaining a legion trait. Doesn't put any limits on the rule, just says that including the Fallen does not prevent legion traits.
So I don't see why battle brothers needs to be altered, when the rule for Fallen (and Fabius) already works fine as is.
Even though Fallen only have <Chaos>, their rule specifies that including them doesn't interfere with legion traits. Job already done, isn't it?
(Just to say I haven't played with fabius or fallen, I just don't see the problem raw)
The rule doesn't do anything, because the Battle Brothers rule prevents them from being included in detachments which include anything other than FALLEN models - they can't use their IMPERIUM or CHAOS keywords to join detachments, leaving only FALLEN.
Yes Battle Brothers made Shadowy Allies obsolete until either's adjusted. Can still take a vanguard or auxiliary support of all fallen, or Fabius. Just hope it's adjusted in FAQ or the final version of Battle Brother's text.
Niiru wrote: I'm a little confused by this.... I mean yes, battle brothers overrides the previous rules for what makes up a detachment, basically just by removing Imperium and Chaos as usable faction keywords. Fine.
As I understand it, the Battle Brothers rule then means that your army is no longer battle forged if you include Fallen/Cypher in an existing detachment, because you can't use the "Chaos" keyword to to bind a detachment. You can take Cypher/Fallen in a Vanguard Detachment (using the keyword "Fallen" to bind the detachment), or simply take them as Aux Support Detachments (but I really don't think either unit is good enough to spend 1CP on...). Of course, if they're a Vanguard Detachment, that's Cypher plus three squads of Fallen which is a huge points sink for a unit that's not much different to Chosen.
Fabius Bile is fine because he still has the Heretic Astartes keyword.
lindsay40k wrote: But even then, losing LEGION perks on the rest of the Detachment is probably not worth it?
It's frustrating, because the beta Battle Brothers rule completely undoes the work of this little gem (P157): "The inclusion of Fabius Bile or FALLEN units in a detachment does not prevent other units in that detachment from gaining a legion trait. However Fabius Bile and the FALLEN units can never themselves benefit from a legion trait"
I mean what's the point of that rule if the inclusion of said Fallen unit in a normal Legion detachment stops said detachment from being Battle Forged?
I wonder if the FAQ/Chapter Approved will be updated somehow to allow Fallen to be included in Legion detachments without breaking that detachments eligibility to be Battle Forged? Because currently you're very limited to how you can include Fallen in your army outside of a Patrol or Vanguard detachment?
I'm a little confused by this.... I mean yes, battle brothers overrides the previous rules for what makes up a detachment, basically just by removing Imperium and Chaos as usable faction keywords. Fine.
But the Fallen rule states clearly that including them in a detachment does not prevent other units gaining a legion trait. Doesn't put any limits on the rule, just says that including the Fallen does not prevent legion traits.
So I don't see why battle brothers needs to be altered, when the rule for Fallen (and Fabius) already works fine as is.
Even though Fallen only have <Chaos>, their rule specifies that including them doesn't interfere with legion traits. Job already done, isn't it?
(Just to say I haven't played with fabius or fallen, I just don't see the problem raw)
The rule doesn't do anything, because the Battle Brothers rule prevents them from being included in detachments which include anything other than FALLEN models - they can't use their IMPERIUM or CHAOS keywords to join detachments, leaving only FALLEN.
Clearly a case of RAI though. As it's a beta rule anyway and not even official, I can't imagine anyone ruling against you in this way. It's just too obvious how the rule is meant to be used.
I can't even imagine tournament officers ruling against this, except of course noone uses Fallen in tournaments anyway.
Dactylartha wrote:My TOs here ruled against it, but it's not ITC and they don't know the chaos codecies.
Who knows - GW may have changed their minds about Fallen since the codex came out, probably not, but they're not saying one way or another.
I mean sure, if a tournament judge doesn't know the rules they might well rule badly on something. It is also, technically, RAW - it's just one of those cases where the RAW is so obviously a mistake that it should be ignored.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Fallen should've been handled in the Dark Angel's codex to be honest.
Oddly enough, the Fallen are probably still best off in a Dark Angels (or any Imperium) army. I might be mistaken, but even if you put cypher and some fallen into a detachment in a dark angel army, cypher is still a chaos character... and so can feel free to summon daemons.
Still no transport, but if you're making a stationary plasma gunline with him anyway that means he's not moving, so you can be summoning some 16" movement screamers or something to do your close-up work with.
Edit - Or a Daemon Prince with a skullreaver axe, in your Imperial army.
Kenny Boucher from 'the long war' podcast said on his most recent video that the new chaos list he is writing won't include 3 daemon prince's as he believes the faq will make DP's 1 per detachment.
Have any of you heard anything similar and if this turns out to be true what do you guys think?
orangebrushminiatures wrote: Kenny Boucher from 'the long war' podcast said on his most recent video that the new chaos list he is writing won't include 3 daemon prince's as he believes the faq will make DP's 1 per detachment.
Have any of you heard anything similar and if this turns out to be true what do you guys think?
orangebrushminiatures wrote: Kenny Boucher from 'the long war' podcast said on his most recent video that the new chaos list he is writing won't include 3 daemon prince's as he believes the faq will make DP's 1 per detachment.
Have any of you heard anything similar and if this turns out to be true what do you guys think?
I do not like these apples at all GW. So much for trying to tie up the local armor gun line with infiltrated units. But hey i get a cover save for 2 CP against 8 battle canon and 8 lascannom shots!
Dactylartha wrote: I do not like these apples at all GW. So much for trying to tie up the local armor gun line with infiltrated units. But hey i get a cover save for 2 CP against 8 battle canon and 8 lascannom shots!
I don't think it's all that bad! my army heavily depends on infiltrating cultists/noise marines to tie up some screens, say i deploy cultists at the edge of my zone and get first turn, free move 9" forward, THEN your normal 6" move w/ potential charges, I can live with that.
Dactylartha wrote: 15 bare-bones raptors = 255 pts. With icon and 3 special gear dudes ~300 pts, only a little cheaper than possessed, but a lot more maneuverable.
Seems like a fun trick that I'm not going to buy and paint 2 more boxes of raptors to try out (before it gets FAQd out anyway). Probably not anyway. If I had the models I'd probably go with it.
I don't see why they'd FAQ it out now, every fly unit in the game has been able to do this for over a year now and they haven't done anything about it yet.
And it's in no way overpowered... it's literally the whole point of having a <FLY> character (being able to jump over enemies/obstacles)
So this is quite hilarious - FLY units can't charge over models anymore. Only moving in the movement phase:
Page 177
– Moving
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.’
Or am I missing something like when you charge, HI, you move as if it's movement phase?
anything stopping us from warptiming say for example a unit of 40 cultists who infiltrated? 9" free move, 6" move, further 6" w/warptime?
The obvious counter to alpha legion infiltrate now is to just sit as far back as you can from them to prevent them wrapping you up, but if you also have oblits/bloodletter bombs they will be forced to screen which is what your infiltrators want.
orangebrushminiatures wrote: anything stopping us from warptiming say for example a unit of 40 cultists who infiltrated? 9" free move, 6" move, further 6" w/warptime?
The obvious counter to alpha legion infiltrate now is to just sit as far back as you can from them to prevent them wrapping you up, but if you also have oblits/bloodletter bombs they will be forced to screen which is what your infiltrators want.
Nothing stopping that, provided you have a sorcerer close enough to cast WT on them (without fail/denial) on your turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: So if everything counts as in cover for 2cp that makes predators 2++ sitting in the open? I like those apples a lot!
As for charging, looks like your right Dactylartha. Charging has to be straight on, or ground path to target as it were. :(
The strat says they get the benefit of cover - does that count for units that normally would have to be ON cover AND 50% obscured? (at work, don't have my codex handy).
Dactylartha wrote: 15 bare-bones raptors = 255 pts. With icon and 3 special gear dudes ~300 pts, only a little cheaper than possessed, but a lot more maneuverable.
Seems like a fun trick that I'm not going to buy and paint 2 more boxes of raptors to try out (before it gets FAQd out anyway). Probably not anyway. If I had the models I'd probably go with it.
I don't see why they'd FAQ it out now, every fly unit in the game has been able to do this for over a year now and they haven't done anything about it yet.
And it's in no way overpowered... it's literally the whole point of having a <FLY> character (being able to jump over enemies/obstacles)
So this is quite hilarious - FLY units can't charge over models anymore. Only moving in the movement phase:
Page 177
– Moving
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during the Movement phase it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.’
Or am I missing something like when you charge, HI, you move as if it's movement phase?
Haha nope, I noticed that too. Even though I didn't see any point in nerfing Fly units, they did it anyway.
So they made mediocre/bad units into bad/garbage units.
I mean seriously, Warp Talons and Raptors just got nerfed again, and they're already among the most useless units in the game.
So the infiltrated possessed put on the forward line of DZ, gets to move 9" + 7" move, making the unit end 40" forward from back of the table on Hammer+Anvil and 8" away from anything placed on an opponent's front line. An 8" charge (rerolled from icon or nearby Skarbrand) isn't unrealistic, but makes it impossible to wrap around a Russ put all the way forward, without warptime? a 12" charge won't give you enough distance to get around the tank. A Raptor, getting 5 more inches on his move, might be able to.
Hey uh, if there is any good news in this faq for someone who plays mostly with an elite khorne army... I would really love it if you pointed it out.... because yea. Skullreaver DP just got a lot harder to play.
Dactylartha wrote: So the infiltrated possessed put on the forward line of DZ, gets to move 9" + 7" move, making the unit end 40" forward from back of the table on Hammer+Anvil and 8" away from anything placed on an opponent's front line. An 8" charge (rerolled from icon or nearby Skarbrand) isn't unrealistic, but makes it impossible to wrap around a Russ put all the way forward, without warptime? a 12" charge won't give you enough distance to get around the tank. A Raptor, getting 5 more inches on his move, might be able to.
Don’t forget that your pile in moves can go in lateral directions.
Spoiler:
T = an inch of a single solid tank model
- = half an inch or so of open space
P = possessed
Charge
T
T
T
T
T
T - - P
- - P P
PPP
Pile in
T
T
T - P
T - P
T - P
T - P
PP
Consolidate
P
TP
T
TP
T
TP
TP
P
It’s not great, but it’s there.
I’ll further add my support to the takes that no more head stomps, dragon punches, or overhead leaps - along with an apparently still unresolved grey area on whether you measure the diagonal displacement when you FLY - makes Warp Talons plunge to greater depths of unviable gimmickry :(
Dactylartha wrote: So the infiltrated possessed put on the forward line of DZ, gets to move 9" + 7" move, making the unit end 40" forward from back of the table on Hammer+Anvil and 8" away from anything placed on an opponent's front line. An 8" charge (rerolled from icon or nearby Skarbrand) isn't unrealistic, but makes it impossible to wrap around a Russ put all the way forward, without warptime? a 12" charge won't give you enough distance to get around the tank. A Raptor, getting 5 more inches on his move, might be able to.
Don’t forget that your pile in moves can go in lateral directions.
Spoiler:
T = an inch of a single solid tank model
- = half an inch or so of open space
P = possessed
Charge
T
T
T
T
T
T - - P
- - P P
PPP
Pile in
T
T
T - P
T - P
T - P
T - P
PP
Consolidate
P
TP
T
TP
T
TP
TP
P
It’s not great, but it’s there.
I’ll further add my support to the takes that no more head stomps, dragon punches, or overhead leaps - along with an apparently still unresolved grey area on whether you measure the diagonal displacement when you FLY - makes Warp Talons plunge to greater depths of unviable gimmickry :(
Your illustration shows the only thing assault armies really have going for them; the so called "wrap tricks", whereby you completely wrap an enemy model or unit and thus prevent it from falling back (and also prevent your opponent from shooting your unit). It is great, and a unit of infiltrating AL Cultists can still pull it off, at least if you can get Warptime off on them.
I will agree, that the changes to FLY units just bone things like Heldrakes, Raptors, Warp Talons, etc. even harder than they were before. Heldrakes were already on the edge of being bad, now they are garbage. Someone mentioned Skullreaver Princes; they just became mostly unviable as well, as your opponent will just screen them out.
Neat graphic, it's fun to see the pile in illustrated like my old DOS games. It certainly might be possible with some free space around the tank and a good charge roll.
I don't know what Khorne daemons can do to clear chaffe for a prince to land next to a titan. Overwhelming number of attacks, maybe? Ally with Tzeentch psyker to try to treason away the screen? (Would love to see that done lol).
I see on other threads the charge distance seems to be ruled as measured diagonally, but i don't know how if they don't say it explicitly.
Hmmm, with the new FAQ and the new strategem that gives +1 cover save to the one going second, Infantry like marines and CSM got a boost. I wonder if CSM marines will come back.
I mean, a cult troop marine with a 2+ save is pretty durable, and if you want to waste a lascannon shooting at it, be my guest. Lets take a whole line of 20 berserkers running up the board. Even if they start second you are shooting at marines with 2+ save. Ordinary fire simply won't do much to them.
Compared to cultists which are gonna die in droves (even with this new strategem). There is a huge difference between a 3+ armor save vs a 2+ armor save. And stuff like Berserkers are more likely to start out in the open anyway, because they want to run up the board. Even if they are embarked in Rhinos, the said Rhinos are now 2+ save, which is pretty nifty.
On the other hand, the FAQ made Chaos gunline armies a lot stronger. Go second and get extra protection for your long-range weapons. You won't have to worry much about close combat until turn 3.
If you take a lot of lascannons, Prepared Positions is actually a force multiplier. You have an advantage trading shots at range. While it's not a huge advantage, it could certainly keep an important unit on the table an extra turn to get in it's shots.
Something I noticed about the changes to Forward Operatives: it only applies to matched play games. If you're not playing matched play, Alpha Legion can still infiltrate.
Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)
Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.
Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)
Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.
Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.
Imperial soup is going to look a lot different with the CP nerf; especially with Smash Captains being less playable (they got hit by a CP and fly nerf), I think we are gonna see Thunderwolf Lords take their place. I dunno, its a brave new world
Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(
Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.
And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.
So MEQs, vehicles, and medium to high AP guns are the main things of ours to *benefit* from this FAQ. Anything else better off than it was a week ago? *Any* good news for Daemon armies?
lindsay40k wrote: So MEQs, vehicles, and medium to high AP guns are the main things of ours to *benefit* from this FAQ. Anything else better off than it was a week ago? *Any* good news for Daemon armies?
The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.
Dactylartha wrote: Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(
Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.
And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.
I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.
My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.
Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.
That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.
2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.
Dactylartha wrote: Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(
Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.
And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.
I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.
My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.
Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.
That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.
2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.
I like the way your thinking. Also there is nothing saying you have to use that 9" move to move forwards. You can use it to reposition havocs into better los without giving up their first turn move, or to shift a flank to the center making your opponents deployment less effective. Its different from before yes, but still has uses that can be found.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)
Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.
Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.
Imperial soup is going to look a lot different with the CP nerf; especially with Smash Captains being less playable (they got hit by a CP and fly nerf), I think we are gonna see Thunderwolf Lords take their place. I dunno, its a brave new world
Thunderwolf lords are even less mobile. They can't even jump onto a crate to get things. They also cost much more and hit softer. Don't expect to see less smash captains. He took a slight hit along with everything else. The CP "nerf" is a joke too, that NOVA list literally never even needed all it's CP's, it finished some games with more I heard. All that army needs is 1-2 turns powered up to table or at least cripple the other guy, which it still easily does. While the Smash captain has less reach in assault, it's a double edged sword because he was only there for the mirror match really, now the screen on that Castellan blocks everything, and nothing gets near it until turn 2 earliest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blood reaper wrote: The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.
Anyone that thought any of those abilities would last is being disingenuous. I mean, it is referred to as cheat-filtrate. It was only a matter of time until that disappeared. It's MUCH better for the overall health of the game. The other guy should always have a turn to react. Funny thing is, you can still easily get a turn 1 assault. You scout 9" inside a tank, get out 3" and move another 6" first turn, that is only 6" from their deployment line before declaring a charge. If you warp time your at their deployment zone. Remember, nobody is dropping in turn 1, including their deployment zone, and no one else including GSC can just start the game on your doorstep.
blood reaper wrote: The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.
Anyone that thought any of those abilities would last is being disingenuous. I mean, it is referred to as cheat-filtrate. It was only a matter of time until that disappeared. It's MUCH better for the overall health of the game. The other guy should always have a turn to react. Funny thing is, you can still easily get a turn 1 assault. You scout 9" inside a tank, get out 3" and move another 6" first turn, that is only 6" from their deployment line before declaring a charge. If you warp time your at their deployment zone. Remember, nobody is dropping in turn 1, including their deployment zone, and no one else including GSC can just start the game on your doorstep.
It was called cheat-filtrate? When? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've been on these forums + 1d4chan + bolter&chain for months reading everything that came up about Alpha Legion tactics and games, and never saw this term once before.
Also you can't infiltrate tanks.
So all you get is a 9" boost. Which is... ok. But if you go second, you're in no-mans-land getting totally wiped out, because instead of being able to infiltrate into a defendable location, you have to run at the enemy if you want any hope of getting into combat before turn 3.
It's a straight nerf, into the ground. You're now better off just taking rhinos, and if you're doing that then there's no point being Alpha Legion (or ravenguard) anymore. Unless you're just taking a turtled-up gunline in a corner of the map, but then if you're doing that then you weren't infiltrating anything anyway.
Dactylartha wrote: Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(
Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.
And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.
I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.
My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.
Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.
That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.
2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.
Hmm. Having a predator survive T1 with 1W after passing one more save does open up a Killshot. The +1W on the damage is nice, but wounding 99% of big targets on a 2+ is definitely worth 1CP, even if one of the three tanks is running on fumes. Up to now, it’s been something of a fire magnet that only pays out if you get first turn. ...I think if I were facing this and given first turn, I’d focus fire on taking a Pred out? So, I’d expect your payoff to usually be in the form of an extra Helbrute surviving T1?
How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?
On a more general note, I think we can expect AP creep in the meta, especially in bigger games where the 2CP outlay scales really efficiently. This hits autocannons hard as a weapon that scares tough infantry and annoys heavy stuff. Missile launchers look even less effective than Las/HB blend.
Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?
It’s possible that Heldrakes might not be totally nerfed by this. Charging on T1 gets around the entire enemy army’s save improving. And the fact of having one does exert pressure on the opponent’s deployment, in ways that FO can’t match (other than Warptimed Raptors, I suppose). Aaaand, they can benefit from cover, even if they are a Rhino with +2W... I dunno. Still probably gimmick tier, now.
Dactylartha wrote: Strat is nice for cover, but you still have to take a round of fire and it forces you to use 2cp in an army that is very cp hungry. That's 20% of my turn 1 cp if I don't get a second or third relic, infiltrate, or have an aux support or less than a battalion and 2 other detachments :(
Maybe it's just me but I burn cp quickly even without rerolls.
And just hit me that the cover doesn't apply if you move forward operatives out of your DZ.
I think you may be missing the point, the value of that cover strategy increases the more long range guns you have.
My army features Abaddon and 22 lascannons spread across Laspreds, Helbrutes and CSMs. The way I deploy, everything has rerolls to shoot and immunity to morale most of the game.
Regularly, in the first turn, a Laspred and a Helbrute are destroyed. The likelihood of that happening just went down, in most games I'll have 2 or 4 more big guns round 2.
That is a huge advantage. It means my opponent will have have less armor / AV to come at me with and, thanks to the FAQ, will be spending an extra round getting into close combat. This gives me time to pick off the important threats from distance with highly accurate, high damage shooting and clobber anything that gets near with beatsticks.
2 CP for a benefit like this is dirt cheap. I will never go first again unless forced to.
Hmm. Having a predator survive T1 with 1W after passing one more save does open up a Killshot. The +1W on the damage is nice, but wounding 99% of big targets on a 2+ is definitely worth 1CP, even if one of the three tanks is running on fumes. Up to now, it’s been something of a fire magnet that only pays out if you get first turn. ...I think if I were facing this and given first turn, I’d focus fire on taking a Pred out? So, I’d expect your payoff to usually be in the form of an extra Helbrute surviving T1?
How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?
On a more general note, I think we can expect AP creep in the meta, especially in bigger games where the 2CP outlay scales really efficiently. This hits autocannons hard as a weapon that scares tough infantry and annoys heavy stuff. Missile launchers look even less effective than Las/HB blend.
Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?
It’s possible that Heldrakes might not be totally nerfed by this. Charging on T1 gets around the entire enemy army’s save improving. And the fact of having one does exert pressure on the opponent’s deployment, in ways that FO can’t match (other than Warptimed Raptors, I suppose). Aaaand, they can benefit from cover, even if they are a Rhino with +2W... I dunno. Still probably gimmick tier, now.
Heldrakes still don't kill enough for their points, between their baleflamer and melee. Mind, the reason they have piss poor damage is because of the rest of its kit and stats, but I guarentee it's a FANTASTIC distraction now. They won't see how badly it actually damages, they only see it zooming up hard.
Speaking of Iron Warriors and their ignore morale WT - is it even remotely viable to throw 20-man units of regular CSM into list? Say, 40 cultists (for screen and Tide), 2x20 CSM and oblitriples for 1500 points list?
I know my drake is overcosted but i love him. He is always a first turn charge into armor or another shooter and gives me my d6 flamer shots against parked devastators with las, while only needing to be 48" away from the closest model. Then he becomes the closest model for shooting in case my prince moved up past my front line. He's also one of my best painted models, and it's hilarious i don't know why but he always draws so much fear from the other guy. "Oh snap a heldrake shoot it shoot it!" And takes fire away from my transports or weapon platforms.
One game vs my unfortunate DG friend tanked 1750 points of fire after tying up his rhino and only took a couple wounds, though he was using my wife's dice that he rolled a LOT of 1's on, statistically improbable amounts of 1's.
Fluke game but I still like my drake, headcannon as my prince's familiar.
Going Warmaster with Heretac hordes will only be good if we gain access to solid unit buffs. If Plague Marines were a bit cheaper, DG might be able to pull it off (though Vitality won’t actually increase their endurance against S4 small arms, or plasma, and they’re a bit slow). BL have a Stratagem that buffs Heretacs, but if you’re doing a BL horde you’re taking Abaddon and he gives them the exact same bonus anyway. So, the unit-wide buffs IW get are from Lords & Princes (which probably want to be affecting stuff more effective, and not having their own melee capability tied to a slow horde), DAs & ECs (which affect melee only, so Berzerkers would do much better), and the deity spells (which generally have more important things to buff than MEQs).
If Diabolical Strength affected a unit, as is often mistaken to be the case, there might be a case. But even then, we return to ‘Berzerkers do it better’.
It’s a shame. In early 8ed, I took a Heretac horde as it was a fluff match for my Word Bearers, and it was actually really effective in the 35-50PL games I got in after work. Just Warptimed them forwards, Advancing and popping off three meltas, with a mass of chainswords ready to reroll their hits next turn. Then, the metagame adapted, and that was the end of that, swarms of Cultists all the way.
Vexler wrote: Speaking of Iron Warriors and their ignore morale WT - is it even remotely viable to throw 20-man units of regular CSM into list? Say, 40 cultists (for screen and Tide), 2x20 CSM and oblitriples for 1500 points list?
You're better off with Cultists. It's less effective than with Abigail, but a Lord conferring Fearless to a bunch of reroll 1 ignore cover Cultists isn't terrible.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, chaos kind of need it... you have imperial soup with Castellan, blood angel smash captains, and stuff. What do we have against those? (And don't say renegade Castellans because mine got taken out in one round of shooting by an IK castellan alone even with ion shields raised.)
Lascannon marines were usually placed in cover anyway, so I don't think that much has changed for those guys. You want that +1 cover save every turn, not just turn 1. Its the bubble wrap, and cult marines that want to be mobile and push up the board (berserkers, noise marines, rubrics and plague marines.) All these got a buff even if they start second due to the strategem. It might even make sense use CSM to bubble wrap instead of cultists now because 2+ save is so good. Although even cultists now get a 5+ save for going second which is nifty.
Stuff like Hellbrutes and vehicles also get a buff for going second. More survivable now.
Imperial soup is going to look a lot different with the CP nerf; especially with Smash Captains being less playable (they got hit by a CP and fly nerf), I think we are gonna see Thunderwolf Lords take their place. I dunno, its a brave new world
Thunderwolf lords are even less mobile. They can't even jump onto a crate to get things. They also cost much more and hit softer. Don't expect to see less smash captains. He took a slight hit along with everything else. The CP "nerf" is a joke too, that NOVA list literally never even needed all it's CP's, it finished some games with more I heard. All that army needs is 1-2 turns powered up to table or at least cripple the other guy, which it still easily does. While the Smash captain has less reach in assault, it's a double edged sword because he was only there for the mirror match really, now the screen on that Castellan blocks everything, and nothing gets near it until turn 2 earliest.
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blood reaper wrote: The new Alpha Legion stratagem is so unbelievably gak compared to the old one. I get that being charged by 20+ Bezrkers on turn 1 was horrible to deal with, as were 40 man blobs of Chaos cultists, but it'd of been much smarter to limit the number of models you could infiltrate. At least the army wide trait is still decent, even if it isn't really fluffy in the slightest.
Anyone that thought any of those abilities would last is being disingenuous. I mean, it is referred to as cheat-filtrate. It was only a matter of time until that disappeared. It's MUCH better for the overall health of the game. The other guy should always have a turn to react. Funny thing is, you can still easily get a turn 1 assault. You scout 9" inside a tank, get out 3" and move another 6" first turn, that is only 6" from their deployment line before declaring a charge. If you warp time your at their deployment zone. Remember, nobody is dropping in turn 1, including their deployment zone, and no one else including GSC can just start the game on your doorstep.
I mean its not like the inflitrate lists were winning anything anyways. I'll agree its much better for the health of the gunline meta though. Gosh forbid i can get in tge face of your guns turn 1. I mean then how would you get to shoot me first?
On the issue of getting a turn to react. Sure but if i go second against a gunline army how am I supposed to be reacting to their firepower? The new 2 cp strat? Good thing it doesn't help my daemons at all. Where is my turn to react against getting shot to death?
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Having a predator survive T1 with 1W after passing one more save does open up a Killshot. The +1W on the damage is nice, but wounding 99% of big targets on a 2+ is definitely worth 1CP, even if one of the three tanks is running on fumes. Up to now, it’s been something of a fire magnet that only pays out if you get first turn. ...I think if I were facing this and given first turn, I’d focus fire on taking a Pred out? So, I’d expect your payoff to usually be in the form of an extra Helbrute surviving T1?
Yeah, I never use killshot. Opponents usually take out a Laspred first turn. They only go after a Helbrute when they realize they don't have enough guns to finish the job on the laspreds. But now that's a possibility...
lindsay40k wrote: How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?
That's one way to look at it. It might help to understand the dynamics of the list.
My big concern is deep strikes. The Laspreds / Helbrutes / CSMs need to be shooting from behind Cultist screens, not fighting.
Since deep strikes can't happen until turn 2, those units - the ones that matter - are not getting charged those 2 turns. This matters because my opponent's ranged threats are severely diminished after turn 1 and usually gone by turn 2. I sometimes get this 'extra' turn, where I can shoot but my opponent can't shoot back with anything that matters.
The likelihood of this extra turn happening is going up. No one will be deep striking just inside their half of the board turn 1 and charging turn 2. This is the kind of rush I face most often and GW just made go away until later in the game.
lindsay40k wrote: On a more general note, I think we can expect AP creep in the meta, especially in bigger games where the 2CP outlay scales really efficiently. This hits autocannons hard as a weapon that scares tough infantry and annoys heavy stuff. Missile launchers look even less effective than Las/HB blend.
Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?
I'm a big believer in massed lascannons versus hordes. 20 shots into a Boyz mob is 20 dead Orks. It might not be points-efficient, but I'd love to know how that compares with the mathhammer for other options.
The major variant I play with this list is swapping out the Laspreds with Scorpiuses. I'm pretty sure these sitting still + Abaddon is the ideal anti-horde loadout for Chaos.
lindsay40k wrote: It’s possible that Heldrakes might not be totally nerfed by this. Charging on T1 gets around the entire enemy army’s save improving. And the fact of having one does exert pressure on the opponent’s deployment, in ways that FO can’t match (other than Warptimed Raptors, I suppose). Aaaand, they can benefit from cover, even if they are a Rhino with +2W... I dunno. Still probably gimmick tier, now.
I would not discount using Heldrakes for harassing flyers. I know they don't dish a massive number of wounds, but I've found there's a lot of value in just taking off a few early-game. Makes shooting it down easier later on.
lindsay40k wrote: How does the FAQ mean that melee opponents will need to take an extra turn to reach you? If anything, relinquishing first turn whenever it’s your call means that they’ll get an advance before you start shooting. And their own heavy, non-invulnerable stuff will take 20%-33% less damage from your lascannon gauntlet. Are you usually getting rushed at by AL, RG, Stygies?
That's one way to look at it. It might help to understand the dynamics of the list.
My big concern is deep strikes. The Laspreds / Helbrutes / CSMs need to be shooting from behind Cultist screens, not fighting.
Since deep strikes can't happen until turn 2, those units - the ones that matter - are not getting charged those 2 turns. This matters because my opponent's ranged threats are severely diminished after turn 1 and usually gone by turn 2. I sometimes get this 'extra' turn, where I can shoot but my opponent can't shoot back with anything that matters.
The likelihood of this extra turn happening is going up. No one will be deep striking just inside their half of the board turn 1 and charging turn 2. This is the kind of rush I face most often and GW just made go away until later in the game.
Aha, I’ve spotted where our misunderstanding’s arose:
first big FAQ wrote:any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)
As of April, whoever’s been dropping units halfway towards you on the first turn has been seriously overstepping the rules
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?
I'm a big believer in massed lascannons versus hordes. 20 shots into a Boyz mob is 20 dead Orks. It might not be points-efficient, but I'd love to know how that compares with the mathhammer for other options.
Do you know what? I don’t even *care* any more how efficient this is, after reading that. That is some top overkill philosophy that’d make Megatron proud, and if your list’s working against pure horde, more power to it
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. With universal cover, how do sixteen missiles fare against nidzilla or green tide, relative to eight lascannons + eight HB?
I'm a big believer in massed lascannons versus hordes. 20 shots into a Boyz mob is 20 dead Orks. It might not be points-efficient, but I'd love to know how that compares with the mathhammer for other options.
Do you know what? I don’t even *care* any more how efficient this is, after reading that. That is some top overkill philosophy that’d make Megatron proud, and if your list’s working against pure horde, more power to it
What a nice way to put it.
Fighting hordes with a Chaos gunline is mostly an exercise in being patient while your opponent removes many models each turn.
This may change when the Codex hits - but Ork hordes are fairly predictable. Wipe out the Lootas then selectively target units to break up the weight of numbers. When they do get there, Cultist screens will take any charges and Helbrutes / DPs / Abaddon / CSM bolters will clean up after the Cultists fall back. Even if your opponent invests heavily in Stormboys, the new rules for charges mean no one is jumping screens. And Grot gunners are a joke.
While this doesn't work exactly the same way against Tyranids, the idea is similar. Flyrants can be ignored while you wipe out Genestealers / Hive Guards / other Big Bugs. Tyranid lists just don't have enough volume of AV to seriously threaten a firebase and their elite melee troops go down easily to high strength AP negative weapons. Spreading out the big guns across a Chaos gunline means tricks like the Horror have minimal impact.
Tau and Drukari present much more of a challenge, especially when they outrange you, spam drones, or put half their points in flyers. Nothing worse than wasting all your lascannon shots only to take a couple wounds off something you can't target very well.
Oh, and PS, regarding the deployment zone thing. There's times it's to your advantage to allow opponents to cheat. That's a common misunderstanding I never felt the need to correct.
Ive used Diabolic Strength on a Berzerker Captain with power fist before 12 attacks at 14 strength seems pretty cash money to me. Wound all those t7 tanks on a 2!
vaklor4 wrote: Ive used Diabolic Strength on a Berzerker Captain with power fist before 12 attacks at 14 strength seems pretty cash money to me. Wound all those t7 tanks on a 2!
I was pondering this, actually. Been working on my own zerks and figured I’d keep their champ in mind as an option when I’m going psyker heavy. It certainly seems high yielding. More so if you’ve got DA/Prescience. Makes the unit even more frightening to try to finish off with a charge, as well...
vaklor4 wrote: Ive used Diabolic Strength on a Berzerker Captain with power fist before 12 attacks at 14 strength seems pretty cash money to me. Wound all those t7 tanks on a 2!
I was pondering this, actually. Been working on my own zerks and figured I’d keep their champ in mind as an option when I’m going psyker heavy. It certainly seems high yielding. More so if you’ve got DA/Prescience. Makes the unit even more frightening to try to finish off with a charge, as well...
I guess you get 12A from the Khorne Stratagem?
3 attacks from being a captain, +1 from charging, +1 from diabolic...Okay my math was a LITTLE off 10 attacks total. 15 with the Khorne strat.
Considering a Nurgle detachment, using a combination of Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons. I know this will lose the death guard trait, which is why I'm wondering if this is feasible or if it would be too big of a loss.
However before I even get that far, I've realised that some units (such as Obliterators) only get Nurgle as a keyword, and not a faction keyword... so I guess I can't put them in a Nurgle detachment?
Units I'm considering:
DG Daemon Prince
Blightlord Terminators
Nurglings
Plague Drones
Obliterators
Maulerfiend.
Niiru wrote: Considering a Nurgle detachment, using a combination of Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons. I know this will lose the death guard trait, which is why I'm wondering if this is feasible or if it would be too big of a loss.
However before I even get that far, I've realised that some units (such as Obliterators) only get Nurgle as a keyword, and not a faction keyword... so I guess I can't put them in a Nurgle detachment?
Units I'm considering:
DG Daemon Prince
Blightlord Terminators
Nurglings
Plague Drones
Obliterators
Maulerfiend.
I'd say it's nearly always worth it to split detachments, especially with Nurgle Daemons, where the characters are pretty cheap and awesome. Heralds of nurgle won me games, they are incredibly versatile and a nice force multiplier. They can fight, they can cast, they give everyone +1S - autotake. And with Nurglings and/or Plaguebearers you can fill a battaillon pretty easily.
Niiru wrote: Considering a Nurgle detachment, using a combination of Death Guard and Nurgle Daemons. I know this will lose the death guard trait, which is why I'm wondering if this is feasible or if it would be too big of a loss.
However before I even get that far, I've realised that some units (such as Obliterators) only get Nurgle as a keyword, and not a faction keyword... so I guess I can't put them in a Nurgle detachment?
Units I'm considering:
DG Daemon Prince
Blightlord Terminators
Nurglings
Plague Drones
Obliterators
Maulerfiend.
I'd say it's nearly always worth it to split detachments, especially with Nurgle Daemons, where the characters are pretty cheap and awesome. Heralds of nurgle won me games, they are incredibly versatile and a nice force multiplier. They can fight, they can cast, they give everyone +1S - autotake. And with Nurglings and/or Plaguebearers you can fill a battaillon pretty easily.
I think it depends on the Detachment, and the units you are taking, and the rest of your army.
If you don’t already have a DG or CDoN (or CSM) Detachment: would the units you’re taking suffer for want of unlocking their Stratagems? (For instance: a Maulerfiend wants to have unlocked Daemonforge to really do damage.)
Do the units you are taking really benefit from their faction traits? (For instance: a single unit of Nurglings does not really care one way or another for Locus of Virulence. A DG Daemon Prince does not care about longer rapid fire, but it might very much want to be able to advance and squirt it’s Plague Spewer. It may well also really like to be able to borrow a Locus of Virulence. Some Obliterators might also want to be able to use that, and also their Iron Warriors trait.)
Are you taking so many units that it would not take much musical chairs to just take two detachments anyway? Their individual gains from traits and strats might be minor, but if there’s nine or so units then a split may well be worth it.
Of course, an organic ‘Tale of Gamers’ gradual addition of Nurgle stuff can be supported really well by the current army selection rules. Get the DGDP and a Nurglings unit as a Patrol, add Obliterators and Maulerfiend until you’ve got a Spearhead, get a Sorcerer to calve it off as a CSM Detachment and Nurgle Patrol, start getting Blightlords and a couple of DG support characters to make a Vanguard...
Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...
Bird of prey wrote: Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...
As long as you're mixing the right daemons with the right legion you can put them together. For example, World Eaters and Khorne Daemons both have the <Khorne> keyword, so they can be mixed. The same would apply to say, Black Legion marines that you decided all have the Mark of <Slaanesh> and Slaanesh Daemons.
The Mark of Chaos is in the faction keywords slot, so it's a faction keyword. There'd have to be a rule saying that isn't the case because by RAW it definitely works.
The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.
vaklor4 wrote: WE legion trait, sorry I just defaulted to thinking you meant WE when you mentioned Berzerkers. Because glory to Khorne, etc. etc.
Can you make an argument that ALL berserkers should have the Legion keyword as World Eaters?
World Eaters aren't really an organised Legion now, split into loads of warbands - but they can probably all trace their beginnings back to WE.
Otherwise, what'd you put as a Legion keyword?
(as an aside, I guess you could have Black Legion Bersekers in the form of the Hounds of Abaddon as per the fluff).
Anyone who’s far gone enough can be a Berzerker. Original IW list allowed them as a breacher type squad. You could have some corrupted Blood Angels or Novamarines for Renegade Chapters zerks. The thing that distinguishes zerks that were initiated into the WE is they have the Butcher’s Nails. But any of the polytheists can have a unit of choppy guys that’s gone over the edge.
Arachnofiend wrote: The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.
Whilst this is what is played literally everywhere I've come across and I agree that it's RAI, I think that (RAW) it's more akin to <REGIMENT> vs <CHAPTER> which you would not be allowed to have in the same detachment even if they had the same name. The issue then is that there are Daemon units in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes, of which neither book has any mention of <ALLEGIANCE OF CHAOS> (thus there are Daemon unit data sheets with a mark of chaos and not an allegiance). This was a discussion that came up when the first Big FAQ was released and I don't believe a consensus was reached on RAW, however RAI, or at least the way it is played everywhere that I know of is that <NURGLE> (or any other god) can be your keyword regardless of whether or not it's a mark or allegiance.
techsoldaten wrote: This may change when the Codex hits - but Ork hordes are fairly predictable. Wipe out the Lootas then selectively target units to break up the weight of numbers. When they do get there, Cultist screens will take any charges and Helbrutes / DPs / Abaddon / CSM bolters will clean up after the Cultists fall back. Even if your opponent invests heavily in Stormboys, the new rules for charges mean no one is jumping screens. And Grot gunners are a joke.
What lootas? Only orks who want to lose take lootas.
Anyway Q isn't "can you shoot orks". You can. Question is can you clear enough orks fast enough that you can get out of your DZ safely to get objectives before orks get enough vp's. Funny thing is orks don't actually plan to get into h2h against gunlines. It's simply not possible. They simply aim to flood the board with ~300 models aiming to keep gunline in DZ long enough to rack up objectives and then survive with some models on board.
vaklor4 wrote: WE legion trait, sorry I just defaulted to thinking you meant WE when you mentioned Berzerkers. Because glory to Khorne, etc. etc.
Can you make an argument that ALL berserkers should have the Legion keyword as World Eaters?
World Eaters aren't really an organised Legion now, split into loads of warbands - but they can probably all trace their beginnings back to WE.
Otherwise, what'd you put as a Legion keyword?
(as an aside, I guess you could have Black Legion Bersekers in the form of the Hounds of Abaddon as per the fluff).
Anyone who’s far gone enough can be a Berzerker. Original IW list allowed them as a breacher type squad. You could have some corrupted Blood Angels or Novamarines for Renegade Chapters zerks. The thing that distinguishes zerks that were initiated into the WE is they have the Butcher’s Nails. But any of the polytheists can have a unit of choppy guys that’s gone over the edge.
Yeah, I suppose.
My army is totally devoted to Khorne so I think it's fine and fluffy to give them the WE keyword.
I'm going for the colour scheme of the warband Wrath which actually isn't described as being associated with any legion at all...but the formation of the warband is very 'World Eaters-ey' so I'm going to go with it.
Bird of prey wrote: Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...
As long as you're mixing the right daemons with the right legion you can put them together. For example, World Eaters and Khorne Daemons both have the <Khorne> keyword, so they can be mixed. The same would apply to say, Black Legion marines that you decided all have the Mark of <Slaanesh> and Slaanesh Daemons.
Whoa whoa wait. So if I want to go full Khorne I can take for example:
Batallion:
Exalted Champion (mark of khorne)
Skarbrand (daemon of Khorne)
Bezerkers
Bloodletters
Cultists (mark of khorne)
Is that what we're saying here? If so a whole new world has been opened to ne.
Bird of prey wrote: Please correct me If i am wrong, but doesnt the battlebrothers rule keep you from using chaos demons units and csm/dg units in the same detatchment? after all the only shared faction keyword is chaos...
As long as you're mixing the right daemons with the right legion you can put them together. For example, World Eaters and Khorne Daemons both have the <Khorne> keyword, so they can be mixed. The same would apply to say, Black Legion marines that you decided all have the Mark of <Slaanesh> and Slaanesh Daemons.
Whoa whoa wait. So if I want to go full Khorne I can take for example:
Batallion:
Exalted Champion (mark of khorne)
Skarbrand (daemon of Khorne)
Bezerkers
Bloodletters
Cultists (mark of khorne)
Is that what we're saying here? If so a whole new world has been opened to ne.
yes and you lost all stratagems and loci or special rules
weaver9 wrote: Oh well, that certainly has become horrible very quickly.
Although I suppose maybe useful in a supreme command detachment.
Battalion of World Eaters
Battalion of Khorne Daemons
Supreme Command mixed between khorne keyword units.
Don't think that offers very much, but maybe.
Well depending on what stratagems you want, you can always unlock stratagems with a simple outrider or vanguard detachment (for example, a herald and 3x Screamers would be a cheap detachment), and then have a battallion of a mixture of all sorts of daemons and CSM units. It's not something that will always be ideal, as you lose out on legion traits for that detachment, but for some options it might work out saving points on HQ taxes for split detachments etc.
The main use of a monotheist soup Detachment is getting an extra CP when you’re doing a mono list with a DEITY Daemons Detachment and a DEITY Heretic Astartes Detachment, with a character and three units of the same role who don’t need their Locus or Legion trait to do their job.
My Sorcerer on Steed, Dreadclaw, and Spawn don’t care about my Legion trait, and my Seekers can’t themselves get a Locus, so putting them all in a SLAANESH Outriders alongside a DAEMONS Vanguard and WORD BEARERS Battalion gets a cheeky CP for no opportunity cost.
I think the main reason to do it is if you have some smashy character models that you want to put in the same list and you don't really care if they don't get their legion trait. Something like putting Magnus in a supreme command with some Tzeentch Daemon HQ's because they all share <Tzeentch>.
Arachnofiend wrote: The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.
Whilst this is what is played literally everywhere I've come across and I agree that it's RAI, I think that (RAW) it's more akin to <REGIMENT> vs <CHAPTER> which you would not be allowed to have in the same detachment even if they had the same name. The issue then is that there are Daemon units in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes, of which neither book has any mention of <ALLEGIANCE OF CHAOS> (thus there are Daemon unit data sheets with a mark of chaos and not an allegiance). This was a discussion that came up when the first Big FAQ was released and I don't believe a consensus was reached on RAW, however RAI, or at least the way it is played everywhere that I know of is that <NURGLE> (or any other god) can be your keyword regardless of whether or not it's a mark or allegiance.
The key difference is that the only way <REGIMENT> and <CHAPTER> match, is if you make up one of your own (that you can for fluff reasons, but you are intended to select one of the options presented)-and as such the rules tells you that you can't do it as they are not intended to be the same.
With <MARK OF CHAOS> and <ALLEGIANCE> though, you can't make up your own, you are given a very specific list that DOES match up.
And yes, the DG and TS books double down on it with units that have fixed <Tzeentch> or <Nurgle> without having any way to tell if its either one, in case the two were not supposed to be the same-further pointing to the fact that the two indeed match up.
Arachnofiend wrote: The keyword isn't actually <Mark of Chaos>, it's <Tzeentch>, <Nurgle>, etc. It's similar to how you can only use Miasma of Pestilence once even if you have it on a Nurgle Daemon psyker and a Death Guard psyker because the same name means they're the same thing.
Whilst this is what is played literally everywhere I've come across and I agree that it's RAI, I think that (RAW) it's more akin to <REGIMENT> vs <CHAPTER> which you would not be allowed to have in the same detachment even if they had the same name. The issue then is that there are Daemon units in the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codexes, of which neither book has any mention of <ALLEGIANCE OF CHAOS> (thus there are Daemon unit data sheets with a mark of chaos and not an allegiance). This was a discussion that came up when the first Big FAQ was released and I don't believe a consensus was reached on RAW, however RAI, or at least the way it is played everywhere that I know of is that <NURGLE> (or any other god) can be your keyword regardless of whether or not it's a mark or allegiance.
The key difference is that the only way <REGIMENT> and <CHAPTER> match, is if you make up one of your own (that you can for fluff reasons, but you are intended to select one of the options presented)-and as such the rules tells you that you can't do it as they are not intended to be the same.
With <MARK OF CHAOS> and <ALLEGIANCE> though, you can't make up your own, you are given a very specific list that DOES match up.
And yes, the DG and TS books double down on it with units that have fixed <Tzeentch> or <Nurgle> without having any way to tell if its either one, in case the two were not supposed to be the same-further pointing to the fact that the two indeed match up.
This debate has been going on for a long time.
I know GW hasn't said anything about it, but I'm wondering if a TO has. Are any examples from tournaments of a mixed CSM / Daemons detachment using a keyword from a specific Chaos God, like from ITC or something?
lindsay40k wrote: On the note of unorthodox targets for Diabolic Strength: Blightlord with flail
That’s 3D3 Power Fist attacks that hit on 3’s and have overflowing damage
Make them against Imperium and average rolls exceed a World Eaters Berzerker Champ with Power Fist
Of course, delivery might be tricky, with such a slug of a unit. Buuuut you’re using a DH caster, so Warptime’s on the cards...
The difference against him and a Zerker champ is that the Zerker champ is only about 28 points by himself. If you add the minimum 4 other zerkers that he has to go with, his damage output as a unit (which AT LEAST adds 6x4 chainsword attacks) outscales the Blightlord.
Tried a sort of anti castellan list and it worked out alot better than I expected. But opponent wasn't expecting it.
It had :
Abbadon
Jump pack sorceror with wraptime and death hex
3 units of 8 Havocs, 4 lascannons each unit.
3 units of 10 CSM, 2 lascannons and champion combi bolter each unit,
2 units of single Chaos Spawn
1 Auxilliary support detachment of 20 bloodletter with banner, etc.
I was playing against an IG brigade (for mass cp), with blood angels batallion of smash captain, Melfieston, and a IK house Raven Castellan with Cawl's wath and bulkwark for the 4++, upgradable to 3+++
Basically, he didn't expect a certain combo. I got first turn, my sorceror was deployed really far forward. 1st turn, he jump packed move advanced 16 inches, then he warptimed himself for another 12 inches. After that he was within 12 inch range of the enemy castellan. Cast death hex successfully, failed ot deny. So, the invulnerable on his Castellan went poof.
After that, the massed lascannons took the Castellan down to 1 wound. A few lascannons were out of range, and these took out two of his sentinels and one of his heavy support lascannon teams.
On his turn, he used a ton of cps, got his castellan to top tier, activated order of campanions and fired everything at one of my havocs squad. He also fired his siege missile at my Abaddon, but only took two wounds off (cos of Abaddon's special rule). He killed just 5 Havocs with his full salvo, which means that I still had 3 lascannons intact in that squad plus Abaddon made sure it didnt run. His mephiston and flying smash captain charged into my army first turn and killed some CSM, but zero lascannons. He also killed my sorceror (expected).
2nd turn, my massed lascannons finished off his Castellan, his mephiston and his smash captain and that was more of less it. (I forgot about my blood letter bomb and it didn't even need to come in before we called it).
This all infantry list negates one of the Castellan's biggest advantages. There are zero vehicles or titanic units for it to kill with its volcano lance. And there are alot of abalative wounds to get through before you finally reach the lascannon guys. It also has 18 lascannon shots, and with Cacophony, it can have 22 shots per turn. Plus the flying sorceror combo to remove invul shields.
Even if it goes second, it can deploy defensive prepared positions for army wide +1 cover. Now, I know I was lucky enough to get the sorceror's warp time and death hex off and his castellan was in range. But even trading heavy shots, this army has a better chance than other shooty CSM armies I can think of going up against a Castellan. It has some disadvantages of course. Its very stationary other than the blood letter bomb. But it can dish out a lot of hurt.
Love how Abaddon just takes a siege missile to the face like that. Seems like that game was over the moment you got off that death hex. That's certainly one way to ruin a Castellan player's day. Thanks for sharing.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Tried a sort of anti castellan list and it worked out alot better than I expected. But opponent wasn't expecting it.
It had :
Abbadon
Jump pack sorceror with wraptime and death hex
3 units of 8 Havocs, 4 lascannons each unit.
3 units of 10 CSM, 2 lascannons and champion combi bolter each unit,
2 units of single Chaos Spawn
1 Auxilliary support detachment of 20 bloodletter with banner, etc.
Just curious to why exactly you're running 8 man havoc squads and single units of Spawn; you could use those points to get a 25 strong Bloodletter bomb (prevents loss of WS2+ on the charge), get 2 more units of min Bloodletters (shield your Havocs against a CQC army) and get a Herald and DP (buffs your letters, adds another Titan killing unit and gives your bomb charge re-rolls).
Well, having 8 havocs in a squad is abalative wounds. When you have this kind of list, the Havocs are a very logical target for the heavy support shooting the enemy will fire. What else can they shoot at with their long range weapons if not the havocs squad.
And it was worth it. The Castellan fired everything at one havocs squad and killed 5 models. If I was running a 5 man havoc squad then that squad would be dead along with 4 lascannons. As it is, I had 3 lascannon havocs left after that. I only have 3 heavy choices and the havocs already take up the max 12 lascannons. So, I can't really take more heavy support even if I wanted to.
Adding more melee doesn't necessaily make the list better. Because at its core, its a shooty list , not a melee one. The bloodletter bomb is just there to add more tactical headaches to my opponent and possibly help me get more objectives across the board. By themselves its unlikely a bloodletter bomb is going to win the whole game for me.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, having 8 havocs in a squad is abalative wounds. When you have this kind of list, the Havocs are a very logical target for the heavy support shooting the enemy will fire. What else can they shoot at with their long range weapons if not the havocs squad.
And it was worth it. The Castellan fired everything at one havocs squad and killed 5 models. If I was running a 5 man havoc squad then that squad would be dead along with 4 lascannons. As it is, I had 3 lascannon havocs left after that. I only have 3 heavy choices and the havocs already take up the max 12 lascannons. So, I can't really take more heavy support even if I wanted to.
Adding more melee doesn't necessaily make the list better. Because at its core, its a shooty list , not a melee one. The bloodletter bomb is just there to add more tactical headaches to my opponent and possibly help me get more objectives across the board. By themselves its unlikely a bloodletter bomb is going to win the whole game for me.
How are the bloodletters a bomb if you can't deep strike them?
Is there a reason such a large contingent of the gaming population is omitting the first R in the word berzerkers? Like a regional dialect, or something?
LOCUS OF CONJURATION
Tzeentch Daemons Stratagem
Sorcerous power surrounds Tzeentch’s chosen champions.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER from your
army – until the end of the phase you can re-roll any failed Psychic tests made for friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON units
within 6" of that model.
Question: Does it work for TSDPs? I have Daemons detachment so can for example Changeling use this one and give reroll to TSDPs?
Question 2: Can TS tzeentch daemon use this to give reroll?
I think the lascannon havocs can in some ways be anticipated to be more guarenteed in terms of being able to actually hit the castellan, the bloodletters have to get to the havoc which can be bubblewrapped in most comp lists routinely.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, having 8 havocs in a squad is abalative wounds. When you have this kind of list, the Havocs are a very logical target for the heavy support shooting the enemy will fire. What else can they shoot at with their long range weapons if not the havocs squad.
And it was worth it. The Castellan fired everything at one havocs squad and killed 5 models. If I was running a 5 man havoc squad then that squad would be dead along with 4 lascannons. As it is, I had 3 lascannon havocs left after that. I only have 3 heavy choices and the havocs already take up the max 12 lascannons. So, I can't really take more heavy support even if I wanted to.
Adding more melee doesn't necessaily make the list better. Because at its core, its a shooty list , not a melee one. The bloodletter bomb is just there to add more tactical headaches to my opponent and possibly help me get more objectives across the board. By themselves its unlikely a bloodletter bomb is going to win the whole game for me.
The extra Bloodletters weren't a suggestion to make your army more melee centric, more of a way to prevent armies with their own deepstrike from immediately tagging all of your havocs and ending the game.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: LOCUS OF CONJURATION
Tzeentch Daemons Stratagem
Sorcerous power surrounds Tzeentch’s chosen champions.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER from your
army – until the end of the phase you can re-roll any failed Psychic tests made for friendly TZEENTCH DAEMON units
within 6" of that model.
Question: Does it work for TSDPs? I have Daemons detachment so can for example Changeling use this one and give reroll to TSDPs?
Question 2: Can TS tzeentch daemon use this to give reroll?
I believe you must target a tzentch daemon codex character as the stratagem target, but afterwards the given aura would apply to 1ks princes.
I am planning to add a 1KS detachment of DP, Ahriman & generic guy on Discs, and a Tzaangor shaman to my army and have them zoom around with a Herald on Disc or Chariot getting loads of rerolls
Bear in mind it’s an all-or-nothing reroll like the Khorne Daemon Locus that doesn’t allow you to redo the lower roll of a 1-5 or 2-4 split, so budgeting a CRR for a key Death Hex will still be likely useful. And a large number of attempts to cast spells is desirable to maximise the chances of actually getting use out of the strat. Otherwise it’d be like popping Daemonforge on a LoS that’s already got DP & EC coverage
What rule specifies that the target must be exclusively from the Daemons codex? Doesn't TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER mean any character in 40k with those faction keywords?
barboggo wrote: What rule specifies that the target must be exclusively from the Daemons codex? Doesn't TZEENTCH DAEMON CHARACTER mean any character in 40k with those faction keywords?
There's a FAQ that explicitly states when a Chaos Daemon stratagem targets a DAEMON it must be a Faction DAEMON. I think it's in the CD FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: However, that's only for Daemon targeting stratagem. The CD codex stratagem that target CHAOS CHARACTER can be used on CSM, R&H, or a sweet Chaos Knight that's been made a CHARACTER. Provided you have a Battle Forged CD detachment to unlock CD stratagems in the first place.
That certainly wasn't a very well thought out way to word that stratagem. When RAW spells out something totally different from RAI.
Oh wait, I remember now, that's also the same FAQ entry that stops us from deep striking/warp surging daemon primarchs. Man, you'd think that the designers would have a spreadsheet that lets them automatically filter out every unit in the 40k catalog by keywords/faction keywords when they're writing these rules. That should have been an easy one to get right.
I'm definitely a little bummed that the daemons codex seems to be one of the less functional books of the releases this year.
I'm not much of a RAI guy, i defer to RAW 95% of the time, but here's a great example of that 5% assumed RAI:
RAW, you can Tide of Traitors your opponent's cultists.
But then again who's to say what's intended? Maybe GWwanted cultists to betray their general, with the aptly named stratagem, for another CSM general's commands?
Haven't heard that one before, that's hilarious. I may try pulling that in a casual game some time just to see my opponent's reaction. Do it on someone who's REALLY uptight about RAW
barboggo wrote: Haven't heard that one before, that's hilarious. I may try pulling that in a casual game some time just to see my opponent's reaction. Do it on someone who's REALLY uptight about RAW
Ayy the best part is, that it does not specify under which controll it is. Basically it states atleast in the german version, that you Chose a unit of Cultists and then bring it in from a flank but atleast 9" away.
There is no limit on which cultists you bring back and that leaves room for Intepretation under which controll they stand afterwards. This be Hillarious, sadly it does not work on R&H since their cultists are called Renegade Cultists.
Still the moment when you steal someones 40 man block after he just tried to outflank you would be hillarious.
It does state that you use it at the end of your movement phase and more than 9” from ENEMY. But yes, it does not specify friendly cultists.
So you could use this to almost kill a unit for your enemy.
Have a unit close to the corner of the table so right in the corner one model can be placed but not more than one and that one model is more than 9” away you just simply killed 39 cultist thanks to “can’t be placed more then 9” away”...
Shoot the last cultist and gain VP.
really liking your responses to this topic!
12 attacks at 14 strength seems pretty cash money to me. Wound all those t7 tanks on a 2!
