Oh, I guess, at 85 points each it's a fair cost though.
Also not a huge advantage... it's 85 points, and only allows an advance+charge if the Engine starts its turn next to the tree. And the tree has to be in the deployment area. So you basically only gain D6 inches (so 3.5" on average) of range for one turn, for 85 points.
Khorne gives you re-rollable charge ranges, which I haven't done the math for but I imagine it'll end up giving you at least an extra few inches on average, and it works from anywhere on the board (near a HQ) and for every turn, and costs nothing as you'd already have HQs in your list anyway.
Personally the trees seem... ok. They seem like they could be pretty decent, but only if you tailor your list around them. Its interesting to have a terrain piece to put down with area denial for 85 points. I dunno, seems like a lot of points for what it does. If you could place them anywhere on the table turn 1, to prepare for future turns, then it would be decent, but you need the slugman for that and thats an even bigger investment.
Slaanesh also give advance and charge - it’s a Locus, there. Throw in Warptime on your Defiler or such and it’s a 21” move before charging. If you’ve taken a bunch of Fiends, it’s not impossible to execute your pile ins in such a fashion that you tarpit an enemy and not only deny them a fall back and shoot against your stompy angry crab, you get to thump them in their own turn. If the pile in after that goes ok, there’s even an opportunity to cast hysteria and get another round of stomps in in your own psychic phase. If my last opponent hadn’t rolled a preposterous amount of 6’s on her overwatch, my Forgefiend would have been an absolute nightmare to deal with turn one.
If there’s a nice vantage point just outside your deployment zone, having an Obliterators unit trot onto it and remain within range of a tree can also be decent. Especially if it is or is near something your opponent can’t just kite - like a key objective.
lindsay40k wrote: Slaanesh also give advance and charge - it’s a Locus, there. Throw in Warptime on your Defiler or such and it’s a 21” move before charging. If you’ve taken a bunch of Fiends, it’s not impossible to execute your pile ins in such a fashion that you tarpit an enemy and not only deny them a fall back and shoot against your stompy angry crab, you get to thump them in their own turn. If the pile in after that goes ok, there’s even an opportunity to cast hysteria and get another round of stomps in in your own psychic phase. If my last opponent hadn’t rolled a preposterous amount of 6’s on her overwatch, my Forgefiend would have been an absolute nightmare to deal with turn one.
If there’s a nice vantage point just outside your deployment zone, having an Obliterators unit trot onto it and remain within range of a tree can also be decent. Especially if it is or is near something your opponent can’t just kite - like a key objective.
Hmm, I'm still not sure which God to devote to. Khorne has some nice buffs, and the Skullreaver axe on a prince is ever so tempting. Slaanesh seems to have a decent array of stratagems and psychic powers though. And Nurgle is Nurgle!
Automatically Appended Next Post: It feels hard to make a fluffy but good Alpha Legion list anything other than very vanilla tournament style. Any suggestions on how to add some spice?
I'm struggling in the same way. I wanted to run Alpha Legion for fluff reasons (it fits the 'story' of my army), but a lot of my units don't hugely benefit from the trait and a lot of the list options end up very vanilla-y. I considered changing to the Renegades trait, but then I lose out on relics like the Hydra.
Forgeworld and Codexaemons are two obvious options for adding some variety to a list though.
I love Alpha Legion, and already started painting them, and I want a less Daemonic style list to suit who they are. I'm using Primaris models to reflect their larger side and their lesser inclination to chaos.
Feels like I grab some cultist bombs (fluffy), throw in some Havocs to support from distance (fluffy), make some cool Obliterators conversions (extra dope), and then from there I basically have the makings of a tournament list while all the spice is basically restricted to Chaos Gods or Daemon crap.
I think I'm going to throw the 30k AL contemptor in as a 40k contemptor. Might style up some Chosen in Rhino's or something too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It feels hard to make a fluffy but good Alpha Legion list anything other than very vanilla tournament style. Any suggestions on how to add some spice?
I'm struggling in the same way. I wanted to run Alpha Legion for fluff reasons (it fits the 'story' of my army), but a lot of my units don't hugely benefit from the trait and a lot of the list options end up very vanilla-y. I considered changing to the Renegades trait, but then I lose out on relics like the Hydra.
Forgeworld and Codexaemons are two obvious options for adding some variety to a list though.
I love Alpha Legion, and already started painting them, and I want a less Daemonic style list to suit who they are. I'm using Primaris models to reflect their larger side and their lesser inclination to chaos.
Feels like I grab some cultist bombs (fluffy), throw in some Havocs to support from distance (fluffy), make some cool Obliterators conversions (extra dope), and then from there I basically have the makings of a tournament list while all the spice is basically restricted to Chaos Gods or Daemon crap.
I think I'm going to throw the 30k AL contemptor in as a 40k contemptor. Might style up some Chosen in Rhino's or something too.
...your post has some mixed signals here, but yes like I suggested Forgeworld is a good place for some extra options for CSM.
Personally I'm considering a Leviathan conversion using a Thanatar, but Contemptors are pretty well costed too for their strengths. I believe Sicarans are also meant to be pretty decent, and they have a cool model too (better than the predator for sure).
Automatically Appended Next Post: It feels hard to make a fluffy but good Alpha Legion list anything other than very vanilla tournament style. Any suggestions on how to add some spice?
I'm struggling in the same way. I wanted to run Alpha Legion for fluff reasons (it fits the 'story' of my army), but a lot of my units don't hugely benefit from the trait and a lot of the list options end up very vanilla-y. I considered changing to the Renegades trait, but then I lose out on relics like the Hydra.
Forgeworld and Codexaemons are two obvious options for adding some variety to a list though.
I love Alpha Legion, and already started painting them, and I want a less Daemonic style list to suit who they are. I'm using Primaris models to reflect their larger side and their lesser inclination to chaos.
Feels like I grab some cultist bombs (fluffy), throw in some Havocs to support from distance (fluffy), make some cool Obliterators conversions (extra dope), and then from there I basically have the makings of a tournament list while all the spice is basically restricted to Chaos Gods or Daemon crap.
I think I'm going to throw the 30k AL contemptor in as a 40k contemptor. Might style up some Chosen in Rhino's or something too.
...your post has some mixed signals here, but yes like I suggested Forgeworld is a good place for some extra options for CSM.
Personally I'm considering a Leviathan conversion using a Thanatar, but Contemptors are pretty well costed too for their strengths. I believe Sicarans are also meant to be pretty decent, and they have a cool model too (better than the predator for sure).
Hmmm. I'm not sure what got lost in translation, but I was mostly just agreeing with you and talking about my goals for the army.
Besides Obliterators (because of courses these jerks need to be everywhere), which units would you recommend for an Iron Warriors list ?
Well Iron Warriors have some of the best cultists due to the IW warlord trait (fearless bubble). Aside from that obviously obliterators like ignoring cover as their guns have variable AP.
I have used a IW havoc squad with heavy bolters a few times and not felt it was a waste.
Although they gain no advantage from the trait, the usual units like sorcerers, dark apostle, exalted champion, chaos lord and berzerkers are still good units.
The IW relic and stratagem aren't bad either. I was a bit down on them at the start, but IW have some stuff going for them.
Besides Obliterators (because of courses these jerks need to be everywhere), which units would you recommend for an Iron Warriors list ?
Well Iron Warriors have some of the best cultists due to the IW warlord trait (fearless bubble). Aside from that obviously obliterators like ignoring cover as their guns have variable AP.
I have used a IW havoc squad with heavy bolters a few times and not felt it was a waste.
Although they gain no advantage from the trait, the usual units like sorcerers, dark apostle, exalted champion, chaos lord and berzerkers are still good units.
The IW relic and stratagem aren't bad either. I was a bit down on them at the start, but IW have some stuff going for them.
This is pretty spot on. I run 1 squad of oblits and at minimum 40 cultists around a DP. I didn't believe the hype at first, but 40 average joes firing twice cuz strategems is no joke. Last game my buddy left his HQ open in the back field. 1 "Tide of Traitors" and 1 "Endless Cacophony" later and his whole HQ squad was gone.
Hello!!! I am a complete newbie. I have played one game only. There were many armies that tempted me, but after reading about the fluff and having played the Astra Mechanus against the thousand sons, I decided I wanted terminators and space marines. I didn't want to play the empire, finding it too much the main hero faction. My friend who introduced and with who I'll be playing a lot, already has a thousand sons army. At the time I wasn't attracted to the Death Guard at all and so it was the CSM who won me. My 1st idea was to go Black Legion, chaos undivided. However, I am finding from what I read here among other things, that a specific Chaos God aligned army is very interesting.Specialy since most known warbands of the black legion are aligned with a specific god. So my problem is that Khorne seems like the only good option: the Thousand Sons have better options with Tzeentch, the Death Guard has better options with Nurgle and the CSM offer interesting options with Khorne like the berserkers and the Lord of Skulls. What about Slanesh? Is there anything beyond noise marines?
For now, I have a 10 men CSPM squad, equiped with bolters, a plasma gun and a heavy gun, a yet unbuilt Hellbrute because awaiting magnets, and a Sorcerer in terminator armor. I'm wondering if by having my CSM equipped with bolters, did I close the door for a Khorne army?
So I'm wondering what you would recommend as a Chaos God specialisation and the army that goes with it Even though my initial though was to go with Black Legion, I could always change my mind,
Heres what I'm thinking of doing: go Chaos Undivided. My warband would be all about thinking they are using Chaos as a tool. They would be convincing themselves that the Imperium is corrupted and leading humanity astray. They want to destroy the empire to make place for a better one. They don't realise that they are far too decadent, violent and mad to be made an examplle. They cherry pick philosophies like Nihilism and Anarchy to make up a viewpoint in witch they are the heroes.
I would build an army that has troops dedicated to each Chaos Gods. I'm thinking about getting rubric, plague and noise marines as well as berserkers
Whatever happens, I will take chaos terminators, but I'm wondering if I should take 5 or 10
I know I want either or both raptors/warp talons and chaos bikers. Really wondering if one of the two is better and if its a bad idea to have both.
For heavy support, I'm thinking about Obliterators
for additional HQs I'm thinking of Abbadon
I would like to be somewhat competitive, but I'm mostly about the fluff and fun.
Nomis wrote: Hello!!! I am a complete newbie. I have played one game only. There were many armies that tempted me, but after reading about the fluff and having played the Astra Mechanus against the thousand sons, I decided I wanted terminators and space marines. I didn't want to play the empire, finding it too much the main hero faction. My friend who introduced and with who I'll be playing a lot, already has a thousand sons army. At the time I wasn't attracted to the Death Guard at all and so it was the CSM who won me. My 1st idea was to go Black Legion, chaos undivided. However, I am finding from what I read here among other things, that a specific Chaos God aligned army is very interesting.Specialy since most known warbands of the black legion are aligned with a specific god. So my problem is that Khorne seems like the only good option: the Thousand Sons have better options with Tzeentch, the Death Guard has better options with Nurgle and the CSM offer interesting options with Khorne like the berserkers and the Lord of Skulls. What about Slanesh? Is there anything beyond noise marines?
For now, I have a 10 men CSPM squad, equiped with bolters, a plasma gun and a heavy gun, a yet unbuilt Hellbrute because awaiting magnets, and a Sorcerer in terminator armor. I'm wondering if by having my CSM equipped with bolters, did I close the door for a Khorne army?
So I'm wondering what you would recommend as a Chaos God specialisation and the army that goes with it Even though my initial though was to go with Black Legion, I could always change my mind,
Heres what I'm thinking of doing: go Chaos Undivided. My warband would be all about thinking they are using Chaos as a tool. They would be convincing themselves that the Imperium is corrupted and leading humanity astray. They want to destroy the empire to make place for a better one. They don't realise that they are far too decadent, violent and mad to be made an examplle. They cherry pick philosophies like Nihilism and Anarchy to make up a viewpoint in witch they are the heroes.
I would build an army that has troops dedicated to each Chaos Gods. I'm thinking about getting rubric, plague and noise marines as well as berserkers
Whatever happens, I will take chaos terminators, but I'm wondering if I should take 5 or 10
I know I want either or both raptors/warp talons and chaos bikers. Really wondering if one of the two is better and if its a bad idea to have both.
For heavy support, I'm thinking about Obliterators
for additional HQs I'm thinking of Abbadon
I would like to be somewhat competitive, but I'm mostly about the fluff and fun.
Looking foward to your suggestions!
I dont think you'd be able to fit units of all 4 of the cult options (rubrics/berzerkers/noise/plague) in a single 2000 point list very easily, unless you only take a single unit of 5 or maybe 10 of each unit and don't take any transports... I mean maybe you can, but it won't leave a lot of points for everything else you'd want. Lets see -
This all equals 1930 points. Huh, not too terrible really. The points costs above include plasma guns on everything that can take them, and blastmasters and plasma pistols and lightning claws and all the upgrades for the rhinos etc. You'll still be short on anti-tank, though the obliterators and the raptors can help out there. Might be a workable list, should look pretty good on the table at least and I do like variety in units.
Marines should be bolt gun if anything. There are 73264 better ways to get melee than basic CSM with chain swords. Also, your bolt gun marines can double as the 6+th havoc to pad some dmg taken once you get specialists and heavy weapons.
Anyone tried the Hellforged Mastodon? Just got my hands on one and im wondering how it is post-CA. I have total intentions of btinging it in a 2k list just for the memes btw.
Slaanesh Marines have three good plays besides Noise Marines:
- heavy gunner or massed fire infantry unit can use Command Points to shoot twice (Lascannons Havocs, Obliterators, and a horde of Cultists with Autoguns are popular options)
- a Daemon Prince with wings and two sets of Claws can take an Intoxicating Elixir to hit really hard in melee (quite a popular accompaniment for Obliterators or Noise Marines, as it can give them some re-rolls)
- an allied detachment of Slaanesh Daemons can enable Daemon Engines to charge after advancing, for a surprise fast rushdown (a rather complicated army build and tactic that’s slightly gimmicky)
Pure Khorne armies are something of a short-ranged ‘glass cannon’; hit like a sledgehammer, but not difficult to kill. They also lack Sorcerers, which is a shame as Dark Hereticus is a really powerful psychic discipline. They really benefit from character support, especially the Dark Apostle and Exaclted Champion giving nearby units massed rerolls on melee attacks.
The Raptor/Warp Talon kit is fantastic, but currently Warp Talons are a very unreliable unit. Small units of Raptor gunners are ok; Nurgle is a pretty good alignment for them, as the Icon of Despair stacks with their existing superpower.
In defence of non-TS Tzeentch and non-DG Nurgle, those specialised Legions don’t have access to Obliterators, Havocs, Bikers, and characters with Jump Packs. Also, Death Guard can’t use Dark Hereticus.
I’m sorry to say that Terminators of all kinds are struggling at present. The Chaos Terminator traditional niche as a small deep insertion suicide squad has been heavily disrupted. Death Guard Blightlords have recently been shown to work, but they have several advantages over other Legions. Powerful combi-weapon, cheap power weapon, and Mark of Slaanesh is probably the best way to field regular Termies - but they’ll probably need high volume anti-horde support (ie, Noise Marines) to clear a landing zone for their arrival near a key target.
In a mostly CSM based army, with a small daemons detachment, where would you put a daemon prince?
Both detachments require HQs, and I’ll have two princes, but not sure whether to have:
Both CSM - give CSM rerolls (but a lord can do that), gets hereticus power, no particularly good relics though, no god buffs.
Both Daemons - god buffs, like a 5+++, are a big deal. Good relics too. Skullreaver axe alone makes it tempting to have a tank destroying prince.
One of Each - the middle ground, probably the sensible option, though I’m considering that two princes of Nurgle and khorne with the god buffs and relics might be better than bothering with a CSM one... not sure.
Hence asking here. One of my prince conversions is almost halfway through being painted, and he currently has a big axe so I need to figure out if I need to alter him haha.
Niiru wrote: In a mostly CSM based army, with a small daemons detachment, where would you put a daemon prince?
Both detachments require HQs, and I’ll have two princes, but not sure whether to have:
Both CSM - give CSM rerolls (but a lord can do that), gets hereticus power, no particularly good relics though, no god buffs.
Both Daemons - god buffs, like a 5+++, are a big deal. Good relics too. Skullreaver axe alone makes it tempting to have a tank destroying prince.
One of Each - the middle ground, probably the sensible option, though I’m considering that two princes of Nurgle and khorne with the god buffs and relics might be better than bothering with a CSM one... not sure.
Hence asking here. One of my prince conversions is almost halfway through being painted, and he currently has a big axe so I need to figure out if I need to alter him haha.
I like the CSM Prince of Slaanesh with double Talons, Wings, Intoxicating Elixir, and casting Diabolic Strength on himself. He isn't optimized to kill vehicles like the Khorne Daemons one with Skullreaver, but he murders elite infantry like it's going out of style! Plus he gives rerolls of 1's to CSM of the same legion, so there's that. To answer your question, it really depends on the rest of your list. Both CSM and Daemons princes grant their rerolls to Daemons of the matching god, but how badly do you want Dark Hereticus powers? And do you want them to grant rerolls of 1's to your CSM, or will you just take a Lord for that? How much do you care about the god buffs (DR, etc.)? All this will depend on exactly what is in the rest of your list.
Hmm. This might be a bit YMDC, buuut... Elixir Prince with Talons and the MW warlord trait. Aren’t all attack rolls, even when rolled in groups, considered to occur sequentially? Soooo...if you’re attacking a unit of 2W models, each attack that successfully inflicts a MW will occur before the next attack, which will finish off the model that takes the MW, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still useful if true, as elite infantry and such tends to have good saves, so could potentially survive hits which inflict MWs... plus, 3W units are a thing.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. This might be a bit YMDC, buuut... Elixir Prince with Talons and the MW warlord trait. Aren’t all attack rolls, even when rolled in groups, considered to occur sequentially? Soooo...if you’re attacking a unit of 2W models, each attack that successfully inflicts a MW will occur before the next attack, which will finish off the model that takes the MW, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still useful if true, as elite infantry and such tends to have good saves, so could potentially survive hits which inflict MWs... plus, 3W units are a thing.
You mean Flames of Spite? I didn't see that as a particularly good trait, as it's only on 6+ to wound rolls. So you'd probably only get 1 mortal wound per fight phase on average. Not a bad thing, but I would have expected something like Unholy Fortitude giving your warlord a FnP would have more impact. Though again, it's hard to know for sure on paper.
EDIT - Also, Skullreaver gives you D3 mortal wounds on every wound of a 6+ anyway, so the relic alone is already giving the Prince a better version of the Flames warlord trait.
I like the CSM Prince of Slaanesh with double Talons, Wings, Intoxicating Elixir, and casting Diabolic Strength on himself. He isn't optimized to kill vehicles like the Khorne Daemons one with Skullreaver, but he murders elite infantry like it's going out of style! Plus he gives rerolls of 1's to CSM of the same legion, so there's that. To answer your question, it really depends on the rest of your list. Both CSM and Daemons princes grant their rerolls to Daemons of the matching god, but how badly do you want Dark Hereticus powers? And do you want them to grant rerolls of 1's to your CSM, or will you just take a Lord for that? How much do you care about the god buffs (DR, etc.)? All this will depend on exactly what is in the rest of your list.
Rest of the list is along the lines of -
Leviathan Dread
Giant Chaos Spawn
Obliterators
Nurglings
Berzerkers or Noise Marines in a Rhino
Maulerfiend
I had flames of spite on a khorne prince with prescience cast on him. He has the sword, not the talons, but still put out a reliable 3 MW each fight phase on top of his normal dmg. Very effective for the rounds before he was too far out of range of the sorcerer. Without prescience on him the MW was still 1-2 thanks to the reroll of 1s into a 6. Lucky i guess.
Dactylartha wrote: I had flames of spite on a khorne prince with prescience cast on him. He has the sword, not the talons, but still put out a reliable 3 MW each fight phase on top of his normal dmg. Very effective for the rounds before he was too far out of range of the sorcerer. Without prescience on him the MW was still 1-2 thanks to the reroll of 1s into a 6. Lucky i guess.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone used Hellforges Leviathan Dreds, or Blood Slaughterers of Khorne? If so how do they perform?
Double grav cannon on the dred seems strong if short ranged, but also expensive.
Leviathan dreads are all expensive, but they're pretty tough and killy too. The grav cannon is great against hordes and vehicles, but the Butcher Array is often talked about as being the best all-rounder weapon as you get a lot of shots from it as standard and they all do 2 damage so it can still murder vehicles pretty well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which of these two Daemon Prince loadouts would you say was the better setup?
Take it as a solo character, without factoring in the rerolls to wound for khorne/slaanesh daemons.
Prince of Khorne (+1A, +1S +1A on charge)
Spoiler:
- Skullreaver (Very strong attacks, plus mortal wounds on 6s)
- Armor of Scorn (4++)
- Oblivious to Pain (6+++ with rerolls on all hits and wounds for a turn)
=
(On charge) 7 attacks @ S10 Ap-4, DD6 with D3 mortal wounds on 6s
3+/4++/6+++, with rerolls of all hits and wounds for a turn if FnP is successful.
Prince of Slaanesh (Fights first sometimes)
Spoiler:
- Soulstealer sword (Damage 3 power sword, heals when kills)
- Mark of Excess (extra attacks)
- Murder Dance (d3 attacks on charge)
- SPELL (I guess Delightful agonies, even though it's a nerfed version, which is pretty crap. Frenzy might be better.)
=
6+D3 attacks (+1 attack per character kill)
Heals per kill
3+,5++,6+++ from Agonies if taken.
Strangely enough, the Khorne version seems to be a lot more survivable, even though it has no psychic buffs. Offensive abilities seem about even, though the Slaanesh Prince is able to possibly gain a couple attacks as well as healing itself in combat.
Until just now, I had assumed delightful agonies was the same as the CSM version. Finding out that it's worse has lowered my opinion of Slaanesh a bit. Actually more tempted by Cacaphonic Choir or Symphony of Pain. Consider the Slaanesh version, but with some Night Lords Raptors as backup and Cacophonic Choir to increase the mortal wounds...
Edit: Because of the Slaanesh DA nerf, I've added Nurgle to the contest -
Prince of Nurgle (FnP)
Spoiler:
- Sword of Corruption (strong power sword, reroll all wounds)
- No other worthwhile relics, so saves 1CP for someone else
- Plaguefly hive (-1 to hit if within 7")
- SPELL (probably Miasma, giving another -1 to hit)
=
5 attacks, decent strength, rerolls all failed wounds for sword
3+, 5++, 5+++, -1 to hit with Miasma, within 7" it'll be -2 to hit with Plaguefly.
So is a bit tougher to kill potentially, with the -1/-2 to hit and the FnP, but no heals and less attacks. Could give him Fleshy abundance for a heal instead of Miasma though.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone used Hellforges Leviathan Dreds, or Blood Slaughterers of Khorne? If so how do they perform?
Double grav cannon on the dred seems strong if short ranged, but also expensive.
I've used the Slaughterer of Khorne before. The wargear for it is pretty interchangeable, i've found that the harpoon is pretty deadly if it lands, and the extra charge distance is always fun, especially since you don't have to charge what you shot. It's also 180 points for something that is as large as a Dreadnaught, so it's very easy to hide behind LoS blocking terrain as it races up the board at breakneck speed. In my opinion, if you own a Slaughterer there is no reason to ever run a Maulerfiend for anything but a Distraction Carnifex.
Dactylartha wrote: I had flames of spite on a khorne prince with prescience cast on him. He has the sword, not the talons, but still put out a reliable 3 MW each fight phase on top of his normal dmg. Very effective for the rounds before he was too far out of range of the sorcerer. Without prescience on him the MW was still 1-2 thanks to the reroll of 1s into a 6. Lucky i guess.
...Flames of Spite is wounds, not hits, my dude.
Dang whoops. Luckily that was a living room game and a while back. I usually just use the WB trait. Move along nothing to see here. ..
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone used Hellforges Leviathan Dreds, or Blood Slaughterers of Khorne? If so how do they perform?
Double grav cannon on the dred seems strong if short ranged, but also expensive.
Leviathan dreads are all expensive, but they're pretty tough and killy too. The grav cannon is great against hordes and vehicles, but the Butcher Array is often talked about as being the best all-rounder weapon as you get a lot of shots from it as standard and they all do 2 damage so it can still murder vehicles pretty well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which of these two Daemon Prince loadouts would you say was the better setup?
Take it as a solo character, without factoring in the rerolls to wound for khorne/slaanesh daemons.
Prince of Khorne (+1A, +1S +1A on charge)
Spoiler:
- Skullreaver (Very strong attacks, plus mortal wounds on 6s)
- Armor of Scorn (4++)
- Oblivious to Pain (6+++ with rerolls on all hits and wounds for a turn)
=
(On charge) 7 attacks @ S10 Ap-4, DD6 with D3 mortal wounds on 6s
3+/4++/6+++, with rerolls of all hits and wounds for a turn if FnP is successful.
Prince of Slaanesh (Fights first sometimes)
Spoiler:
- Soulstealer sword (Damage 3 power sword, heals when kills)
- Mark of Excess (extra attacks)
- Murder Dance (d3 attacks on charge)
- SPELL (I guess Delightful agonies, even though it's a nerfed version, which is pretty crap. Frenzy might be better.)
=
6+D3 attacks (+1 attack per character kill)
Heals per kill
3+,5++,6+++ from Agonies if taken.
Strangely enough, the Khorne version seems to be a lot more survivable, even though it has no psychic buffs. Offensive abilities seem about even, though the Slaanesh Prince is able to possibly gain a couple attacks as well as healing itself in combat.
Until just now, I had assumed delightful agonies was the same as the CSM version. Finding out that it's worse has lowered my opinion of Slaanesh a bit. Actually more tempted by Cacaphonic Choir or Symphony of Pain. Consider the Slaanesh version, but with some Night Lords Raptors as backup and Cacophonic Choir to increase the mortal wounds...
Edit: Because of the Slaanesh DA nerf, I've added Nurgle to the contest -
Prince of Nurgle (FnP)
Spoiler:
- Sword of Corruption (strong power sword, reroll all wounds)
- No other worthwhile relics, so saves 1CP for someone else
- Plaguefly hive (-1 to hit if within 7")
- SPELL (probably Miasma, giving another -1 to hit)
=
5 attacks, decent strength, rerolls all failed wounds for sword
3+, 5++, 5+++, -1 to hit with Miasma, within 7" it'll be -2 to hit with Plaguefly.
So is a bit tougher to kill potentially, with the -1/-2 to hit and the FnP, but no heals and less attacks. Could give him Fleshy abundance for a heal instead of Miasma though.
you cant give Dp's two relics, any character can have only 1 relic.
you cant give Dp's two relics, any character can have only 1 relic.
Hmm, I had to check this, as the Artefacts page has no such limitation on how many relics a single character can have. But then I read the stratagem, and that does actually specify that all relics need to be on different characters. Shame they didn't write that on the artefacts page too.
But, that at least makes the decision... easier? Or harder... actually it makes it harder because now there's like 6 different options instead of just 3. Dammit.
blackmage wrote: u can have only 1 relic on each character that's what rules says, is written under relics of decay.
Relics of Decay? Doesn't seem to even be a section in the codex.
It's actually written under "Rewards of Chaos".
Edit:
Oh, you're talking about the Death Guard codex for some reason. But no, it's not under Relics of Decay there either, it's under "Gifts of Decay". Just for people looking for this in future.
So here is an abomination of the fluff - I prefer straight up Iron Warriors, but this list is competitive.. I think? It is from models that I own and is a hodge podge of stuff people seem to rate as “good”.
CSM Battalion Detachment
Iron Warriors Chaos Lord (Warlord - Cold & Bitter), chainaxe
Alpha Legion Chaos Lord - chainaxe
40 Iron Warriors Cultists - Autoguns & Mark of Slaanesh
10 Iron Warriors Cultists - Autoguns & Mark of Slaanesh
10 Iron Warriors Cultists - Autoguns & Mark of Slaanesh
3 Alpha Legion Obliterators - Mark of Slaanesh
3 Alpha Legion Obliterators - Mark of Slaanesh
World Eaters Battalion Detachment
Dark Apostle
Dark Apostle
Exalted Champion - Powersword (Murdersword)
9 Khorne Berzerkers
9 Khorne Berzerkers
9 Khorne Berzerkers
Chaos Rhino - 2 Combi Bolters
Chaos Rhino - 2 Combi Bolters
Chaos Rhino - 2 Combi Bolters
Thousand Sons Supreme Command Detachment
Ahriman
Sorcerer - Force Sword & inferno bolt pistol
Sorcerer - Force Staff & inferno bolt pistol
2K pts.
Rough concept is that the thousand sons hide behind the fearless cultists and buff /dish out mortal wounds, world eaters smash, obliterators...err pound.
The CSM detachment could be pure IW, ignore cover is decent on obliterators. I am just thinking that forward operatives stratagem might be handy in some games. Thoughts?
Why 2 apostoles? I woul prefer give disk to ahriman and sorcerers, they va follow berserkers and buff them, they are your hammer
Automatically Appended Next Post: Why 2 apostoles? I woul prefer give disk to ahriman and sorcerers, they va follow berserkers and buff them, they are your hammer
Just to have enough units in the WE detachment to have the 3 transports. Kinda a toss up between an additional dark apostle or a min unit of bikes for obj taking.
Bit limited in the model variety on the sorcerers and have Ahriman on foot!
I have played the list minus the two sorcerers (havocs instead) and the bikes instead of the extra apostle, it has felt strong enough even with my basic tactics. I’d probably admittedly get smashed by a good player, but I’m hoping this current list can carry me somewhat!
Hey folks I recently came into possession of a Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne. I would love to build an army around it. Can I get suggestions as to what the rest of a 2k list would look like? Open to basically anything, as competitive as possible (while still including the scorpion).
Bryan01 wrote: Just to have enough units in the WE detachment to have the 3 transports. Kinda a toss up between an additional dark apostle or a min unit of bikes for obj taking.
Bit limited in the model variety on the sorcerers and have Ahriman on foot!
I have played the list minus the two sorcerers (havocs instead) and the bikes instead of the extra apostle, it has felt strong enough even with my basic tactics. I’d probably admittedly get smashed by a good player, but I’m hoping this current list can carry me somewhat!
The three units of Berzerkers are enough to get access to the 3 rhinos no?
Bryan01 wrote: Just to have enough units in the WE detachment to have the 3 transports. Kinda a toss up between an additional dark apostle or a min unit of bikes for obj taking.
Bit limited in the model variety on the sorcerers and have Ahriman on foot!
I have played the list minus the two sorcerers (havocs instead) and the bikes instead of the extra apostle, it has felt strong enough even with my basic tactics. I’d probably admittedly get smashed by a good player, but I’m hoping this current list can carry me somewhat!
The three units of Berzerkers are enough to get access to the 3 rhinos no?
Yup you're right, read the transport rules wrong. Saves me 76pts, probably just use that for icon of wraths, an extra berserker and upgrade a lord to sorcerer or something to get delightful agonies.
weaver9 wrote: Hey folks I recently came into possession of a Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne. I would love to build an army around it. Can I get suggestions as to what the rest of a 2k list would look like? Open to basically anything, as competitive as possible (while still including the scorpion).
Since you want to go competitive, I’d recomend a soup list with a reliable Warptime caster - perhaps Ahriman? - eating the requisite Mortal Wounds to try to give it a first turn charge. Prescience is an idea to maximise the hits from those nice attacks and Diabolic Strength will be nice, especially if it grapples a T16 model - but you might want a second caster to be doing these to avoid terminal nosebleeds. A Battalion will be very important for rerolls on casting and Daemonfroge.
It’s an absolute fire magnet, so be prepared for it to die if you lose T1 and have a Plan B. I think useful supplementary units will be Berzerkers in a Rhino Rush and Noise Marines - it doesn’t want to get bogged down with hordes, and the Rhinos add to threat overload. Give them combi-plasmas and overcharge & use both barrels for a decent chance to execute a first turn charge. If a DA+EC duo can get within shouting range of it, then it effectively gets a free Daemonforge every fight phase - but don’t let this be a ball & chain on it. If it does die T1 then at least your Rhino beatsticks can make it.
This is a bit gimmicky, but a load of solo Fiends of Slaanesh can potentially stop an enemy unit it engages on T1 from falling back. If they’re accompanied by a Herald on Steed, you could field some Forgefiend that Advance and try to charge T1, adding to to daemon engine jamboree. Perhaps try to use them as Distraction Carnifexes; ideally, your opponent makes the unforced error of ‘well, those can advance and charge T1, and casting Warptime on that giant thing will cripple the Sorcerer, so let’s deal with them first’. Again, gimmicky, but potentially deadly.
weaver9 wrote: Hey folks I recently came into possession of a Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne. I would love to build an army around it. Can I get suggestions as to what the rest of a 2k list would look like? Open to basically anything, as competitive as possible (while still including the scorpion).
Since you want to go competitive, I’d recomend a soup list with a reliable Warptime caster - perhaps Ahriman? - eating the requisite Mortal Wounds to try to give it a first turn charge. Prescience is an idea to maximise the hits from those nice attacks and Diabolic Strength will be nice, especially if it grapples a T16 model - but you might want a second caster to be doing these to avoid terminal nosebleeds. A Battalion will be very important for rerolls on casting and Daemonfroge.
It’s an absolute fire magnet, so be prepared for it to die if you lose T1 and have a Plan B. I think useful supplementary units will be Berzerkers in a Rhino Rush and Noise Marines - it doesn’t want to get bogged down with hordes, and the Rhinos add to threat overload. Give them combi-plasmas and overcharge & use both barrels for a decent chance to execute a first turn charge. If a DA+EC duo can get within shouting range of it, then it effectively gets a free Daemonforge every fight phase - but don’t let this be a ball & chain on it. If it does die T1 then at least your Rhino beatsticks can make it.
This is a bit gimmicky, but a load of solo Fiends of Slaanesh can potentially stop an enemy unit it engages on T1 from falling back. If they’re accompanied by a Herald on Steed, you could field some Forgefiend that Advance and try to charge T1, adding to to daemon engine jamboree. Perhaps try to use them as Distraction Carnifexes; ideally, your opponent makes the unforced error of ‘well, those can advance and charge T1, and casting Warptime on that giant thing will cripple the Sorcerer, so let’s deal with them first’. Again, gimmicky, but potentially deadly.
Sadly it appears friendly psykers cannot target it with spells period.
So maybe it just needs to be one giant distraction carnifex, while the rest of my list does what it needs to do.
weaver9 wrote: Hey folks I recently came into possession of a Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne. I would love to build an army around it. Can I get suggestions as to what the rest of a 2k list would look like? Open to basically anything, as competitive as possible (while still including the scorpion).
Since you want to go competitive, I’d recomend a soup list with a reliable Warptime caster - perhaps Ahriman? - eating the requisite Mortal Wounds to try to give it a first turn charge. Prescience is an idea to maximise the hits from those nice attacks and Diabolic Strength will be nice, especially if it grapples a T16 model - but you might want a second caster to be doing these to avoid terminal nosebleeds. A Battalion will be very important for rerolls on casting and Daemonfroge.
It’s an absolute fire magnet, so be prepared for it to die if you lose T1 and have a Plan B. I think useful supplementary units will be Berzerkers in a Rhino Rush and Noise Marines - it doesn’t want to get bogged down with hordes, and the Rhinos add to threat overload. Give them combi-plasmas and overcharge & use both barrels for a decent chance to execute a first turn charge. If a DA+EC duo can get within shouting range of it, then it effectively gets a free Daemonforge every fight phase - but don’t let this be a ball & chain on it. If it does die T1 then at least your Rhino beatsticks can make it.
This is a bit gimmicky, but a load of solo Fiends of Slaanesh can potentially stop an enemy unit it engages on T1 from falling back. If they’re accompanied by a Herald on Steed, you could field some Forgefiend that Advance and try to charge T1, adding to to daemon engine jamboree. Perhaps try to use them as Distraction Carnifexes; ideally, your opponent makes the unforced error of ‘well, those can advance and charge T1, and casting Warptime on that giant thing will cripple the Sorcerer, so let’s deal with them first’. Again, gimmicky, but potentially deadly.
Sadly it appears friendly psykers cannot target it with spells period.
So maybe it just needs to be one giant distraction carnifex, while the rest of my list does what it needs to do.
What makes you think that you can't cast spells on the Brass Scorpion?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't see any reason why you can't.
Edit: Also the Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion auras don't count as psychic powers anyway, and are very potent by themselves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit 2:
On another subject, is there any way to make an effective noise marine CQC squad, or is it always better to just stick to berzerkers?
What makes you think that you can't cast spells on the Brass Scorpion?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't see any reason why you can't.
Edit: Also the Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion auras don't count as psychic powers anyway, and are very potent by themselves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit 2:
On another subject, is there any way to make an effective noise marine CQC squad, or is it always better to just stick to berzerkers?
Imperial Armor FAQ:
Spoiler:
Page 10 – Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne, Runes of
the Blood God
Delete the words ‘(friendly or enemy)’ from this ability.
Add the following to this ability: ‘Furthermore, this
model cannot be targeted by psychic powers manifested
by friendly Psykers.’
What makes you think that you can't cast spells on the Brass Scorpion?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can't see any reason why you can't.
Edit: Also the Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion auras don't count as psychic powers anyway, and are very potent by themselves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit 2:
On another subject, is there any way to make an effective noise marine CQC squad, or is it always better to just stick to berzerkers?
Imperial Armor FAQ:
Spoiler:
Page 10 – Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne, Runes of
the Blood God
Delete the words ‘(friendly or enemy)’ from this ability.
Add the following to this ability: ‘Furthermore, this
model cannot be targeted by psychic powers manifested
by friendly Psykers.’
On the note of auras word Khorne Daemon auras work on it? Might be some extra synergies there.
Ahha, thanks, I've updated my codex with most of the FAQ and Erratas, but I must not have done that one. I sometimes only update the rules for models I own, and I don't (yet) own a Scorpion.
As long as the Scorpion has the Daemon keyword still, then all the daemon auras will work on it. So a herald can give it +1S and the Prince can give it rerolls on all hits of 1. Chaos Lords give the same buff.
Anyone using melee Noise Marines? Any thoughts on how they do?
Asking because I saw someone use them in a game a couple weeks ago. No sonics, just chainswords and bolt pistols. The owner was trashing a Tyranid army and explained to me why they work so well.
Completely forgot what he said. But would like to know.
for me noise are quite better with sonics they can use music of apocalipse and anyway they have 2 attacks in cac, 15 noise 45+45 bolter hits and 31 melee attacks, doubt noise only melee can do any better.
Anyone using melee Noise Marines? Any thoughts on how they do?
Asking because I saw someone use them in a game a couple weeks ago. No sonics, just chainswords and bolt pistols. The owner was trashing a Tyranid army and explained to me why they work so well.
Completely forgot what he said. But would like to know.
Melee Noise Marines are outclassed almost entirely by Berzerkers. Against Nids I have no idea how that worked out well for him, because in truth the only major advantage noise marines get from going melee is by being the bane of any imperial army. However one hilarious thing you can do if you DO go noise marines in melee is that they can throw grenades when they die, instead of using their pistol. And every model has a grenade. If your unit gets blasted off the face of the board and it's within 6" of any unit? Get ready for multiple krak grenades into their face.
Anyone using melee Noise Marines? Any thoughts on how they do?
Asking because I saw someone use them in a game a couple weeks ago. No sonics, just chainswords and bolt pistols. The owner was trashing a Tyranid army and explained to me why they work so well.
Completely forgot what he said. But would like to know.
Melee Noise Marines are outclassed almost entirely by Berzerkers. Against Nids I have no idea how that worked out well for him, because in truth the only major advantage noise marines get from going melee is by being the bane of any imperial army. However one hilarious thing you can do if you DO go noise marines in melee is that they can throw grenades when they die, instead of using their pistol. And every model has a grenade. If your unit gets blasted off the face of the board and it's within 6" of any unit? Get ready for multiple krak grenades into their face.
I believe grenades have the same limitations as other weapons, in that they can't be aimed at units within 1" of them. So they would have to throw their grenades at a unit they aren't in melee combat with, but who is still within the 6" range of the grenade. So usually, they'd only get to fire their pistols.
blackmage wrote: they can use ANY ranged weapon so sonic blasters too, they are not limited using pistols or grenades also if enemies within 1"
They can fire the weapon if enemies are within 1", but they can't TARGET a unit that is within 1". So they would have to target a different unit. Which is fine for sonic blasters with a 24" range, but grenades are only 6" so it would be a lot harder to make use of them.
blackmage wrote: this is why you MUST use sonic blasters and not full melee noise marines
Agree completely. I love Noise Marines with sonic weapons. Blastmasters aren't a terrible option either; to me they are kind of a better missile launcher, and cheaper too! Music of the Apocalypse is just the icing on the Slaaneshi cake.
Just beat an ITC tourney list with Word Bearers & Daemons of Slaanesh
He took Ulthwe & Harlequins, with two planes and plenty of unit variety, lots of stacking Ld debuffs
I took Cultists, Sorcerer & Lord on Steeds, Sorcerer & Warpsmith, Turkey, Hell Blade, Defiler, Forgefiend, Obliterators, fiends of Slaanesh, KoS, seekers, Herald on Steed. Mainly a daemonkin fluff list chosen for unit aesthetics
Basic strategy was to use Loci and Warptime and Advance & charge command rerolls to throw buffed Daemon engines in his face T1. Slaanesh Daemons have a nice opening strike but Fiends are overcosted; Daemon engines are a big slow and overcosted. Get the moving parts well oiled and they become a killing machine greater than the sum of its parts. Declare charges on screens and the units behind them, and you can punch through & pile in with drifting (“end your 3” move closer to the nearest enemy model” has a LOT of leeway). As long as a Fiend or two reaches the moshpit, it’s like that bit where Rorschach informs the prisoners he’s not locked up with them, they’re locked up with him
Quicksilver swiftness & Fiends’ gimmick completely disrupted his ninja clowns. If your opponent’s not familiar with them, they’ll wreck armies that like to fall back. Several times I dragged him into mosh pits he couldn’t leave until I let him. Think his strategy was based on similar, but with careful placement and modest fortune Fiends utterly dominate at unit pinball. Dark Reapers got like one round of fire (tagged them with a pile in - remember, always drift around & encircle), then finally smote & stabbed on T4. Rolled well on my early saves, but lost first turn & failed to ever cast DA, so that’s kinda even
Biggest problem was KoS & Fiends not being allowed to climb ruins - at end of game I was swatting a guardian or two with smite, but still couldn’t take his home objective. Made three unforced errors - attacking in wrong sequence killed my Seekers, not Daemonforging when I had turkey on his Warlord cost me, and not Daemonforging when shooting at Dark Reapers got Defiler killed when it could have had one last hurrah
Took a gamble on an opportunist Daemonic Possession and reduced a Harlequin witch to 1W, with preposterously fast Seeker Herald then cutting it down. THEN piling in to a troupe that had picked a fight with a Fiend. Same turn, KoS & Cultist blob & Firnd 2 was tarpitting some big wraithlord witch. Other units stood behind walls and wham, DRs lost another shooting phase. Obliterators did enough, landing on a rooftop T2 then finishing & crippling key targets (don’t forget you can aim each one at a different unit). Word Bearers trait saved a lot of Cultists, who then fulfilled their purposes as screens and objective campers. Even beat up a Death Jester
Presence of Daemon Engines and his own missions led him to use his Solitaire to assassinate Warpsmith On T1, which enabled an adjacent Defiler to pop a cheeky Daemonforge then stomp it to mush then get a free 3” move. An unforced error, I think - the Sorcerers were rather more instrumental, the foot one managing to survive with 1W to the end, and the Steed one Smote & trampled some priority targets. Unlikely Smiddy would have kept pace to mend the Daemon Engines, mainly took him because fluff and nice model and competent Cultist babysitter
I only brought the three I have painted, each as a solo unit. I think four or six are ideal for this; some of them will die if you lose first turn and your opponent has good target priority, some of them will roll badly for charges or advances, you may need to attack on two fronts. I had a KoS, who wrecked face, but a second Steed Herald (and more Fiends) would have been preferable for higher base speed and free re-rolls during the first charge phase.
Gonna try a variant list fielding my KoS as Zarakynel. 2CP for 3C++ might make her workable in this.
I have three more unbuilt Fiends and will be getting them made to develop this list, but I’d be cautious about going out and buying six to get a slice of this pie - this list works because they currently have an extraordinary superpower has completely changed from what it used to be and they’re obscure enough that people aren’t used to dealing with them.
There’s a lot of moving parts in play, here, and with T4 W3, an opponent with plentiful 36” anti-horde can delete them if you lose T1.
lindsay40k wrote: I only brought the three I have painted, each as a solo unit. I think four or six are ideal for this; some of them will die if you lose first turn and your opponent has good target priority, some of them will roll badly for charges or advances, you may need to attack on two fronts. I had a KoS, who wrecked face, but a second Steed Herald (and more Fiends) would have been preferable for higher base speed and free re-rolls during the first charge phase.
Gonna try a variant list fielding my KoS as Zarakynel. 2CP for 3C++ might make her workable in this.
I have three more unbuilt Fiends and will be getting them made to develop this list, but I’d be cautious about going out and buying six to get a slice of this pie - this list works because they currently have an extraordinary superpower has completely changed from what it used to be and they’re obscure enough that people aren’t used to dealing with them.
There’s a lot of moving parts in play, here, and with T4 W3, an opponent with plentiful 36” anti-horde can delete them if you lose T1.
Those greater daemons from FW aren't good. Don't do it.
lindsay40k wrote: I only brought the three I have painted, each as a solo unit. I think four or six are ideal for this; some of them will die if you lose first turn and your opponent has good target priority, some of them will roll badly for charges or advances, you may need to attack on two fronts. I had a KoS, who wrecked face, but a second Steed Herald (and more Fiends) would have been preferable for higher base speed and free re-rolls during the first charge phase.
Gonna try a variant list fielding my KoS as Zarakynel. 2CP for 3C++ might make her workable in this.
I have three more unbuilt Fiends and will be getting them made to develop this list, but I’d be cautious about going out and buying six to get a slice of this pie - this list works because they currently have an extraordinary superpower has completely changed from what it used to be and they’re obscure enough that people aren’t used to dealing with them.
There’s a lot of moving parts in play, here, and with T4 W3, an opponent with plentiful 36” anti-horde can delete them if you lose T1.
Those greater daemons from FW aren't good. Don't do it.
I’d like to bring her out for garagehammer. My KoS is scratch-built and big enough to be her. And if she does get deleted - that’s several Daemon Engines untouched. But yeah, casual only.
...
Just won another game. Big Guns Never Tire. Opponent had a Spartan full of Blood Claws and Wulfen, followed by a Captain-Lieutenant combo and Njal, and a Bastion full of Long Fangs. Intercessors covered screening and kept their heads down. Total target denial for anti-horde, and a lot of heavy anti-tank firepower. She had three objectives in her DZ and it was lengthwise.
T1 I used Familiar to trade Death Hex for Diabolic Strength. Cast it along with DA & Prescience on Turkey, then Warptimed it at Njal (burning an Intercessor Squad en route) using a re-roll on a cast. Used Daemonforge and ate him. Got beat down by a lieutenant type but established total psychic dominance, no more powerful DtW or cover aura. KoS got very lucky with saves but lost a Daemon engine to shooting both first two turns. KoS survived overwatch on Spartan with 1W then rolled 2” for charge with no CP left. Final surviving Defiler spent rest of game with every buff I could throw at it and tearing up the big stuff whilst footsloggers closed the gap. HS having top trumps on objectives, plus parking a Cultist unit on the objective in my DZ, meant I won the mission despite losing warlord, first blood, and three HS worth 1VP each.
Competitive-wise, I’m thinking that a Slaanesh Daemons Battalion might be necessary. Seekers are modestly ok, KoS is a fire magnet in an army of fire magnets, but it’s a list that can be greater than the sum of its parts so long as those parts keep moving in unison. It burns through CP fast and needs to keep a bunch for a decisive Daemonforge, familiar, tide of traitors, Endless Cacophony... so, gonna try dropping the Seekers and KoS and Warpsmith (even if a Daemon engine survives to be healed, he can’t keep up) for 40 Daemonettes and an extra Fiend. I’ll make the Spearhead a Slaanesh soup to fit 4iend in as a solo unit - the Oblits and Sorcerer don’t need my Legion trait, and I’ve unlocked CSM & CD Stratagems.
lindsay40k wrote: I only brought the three I have painted, each as a solo unit. I think four or six are ideal for this; some of them will die if you lose first turn and your opponent has good target priority, some of them will roll badly for charges or advances, you may need to attack on two fronts. I had a KoS, who wrecked face, but a second Steed Herald (and more Fiends) would have been preferable for higher base speed and free re-rolls during the first charge phase.
Gonna try a variant list fielding my KoS as Zarakynel. 2CP for 3C++ might make her workable in this.
I have three more unbuilt Fiends and will be getting them made to develop this list, but I’d be cautious about going out and buying six to get a slice of this pie - this list works because they currently have an extraordinary superpower has completely changed from what it used to be and they’re obscure enough that people aren’t used to dealing with them.
There’s a lot of moving parts in play, here, and with T4 W3, an opponent with plentiful 36” anti-horde can delete them if you lose T1.
Those greater daemons from FW aren't good. Don't do it.
I’d like to bring her out for garagehammer. My KoS is scratch-built and big enough to be her. And if she does get deleted - that’s several Daemon Engines untouched. But yeah, casual only.
...
Just won another game. Big Guns Never Tire. Opponent had a Spartan full of Blood Claws and Wulfen, followed by a Captain-Lieutenant combo and Njal, and a Bastion full of Long Fangs. Intercessors covered screening and kept their heads down. Total target denial for anti-horde, and a lot of heavy anti-tank firepower. She had three objectives in her DZ and it was lengthwise.
T1 I used Familiar to trade Death Hex for Diabolic Strength. Cast it along with DA & Prescience on Turkey, then Warptimed it at Njal (burning an Intercessor Squad en route) using a re-roll on a cast. Used Daemonforge and ate him. Got beat down by a lieutenant type but established total psychic dominance, no more powerful DtW or cover aura. KoS got very lucky with saves but lost a Daemon engine to shooting both first two turns. KoS survived overwatch on Spartan with 1W then rolled 2” for charge with no CP left. Final surviving Defiler spent rest of game with every buff I could throw at it and tearing up the big stuff whilst footsloggers closed the gap. HS having top trumps on objectives, plus parking a Cultist unit on the objective in my DZ, meant I won the mission despite losing warlord, first blood, and three HS worth 1VP each.
Competitive-wise, I’m thinking that a Slaanesh Daemons Battalion might be necessary. Seekers are modestly ok, KoS is a fire magnet in an army of fire magnets, but it’s a list that can be greater than the sum of its parts so long as those parts keep moving in unison. It burns through CP fast and needs to keep a bunch for a decisive Daemonforge, familiar, tide of traitors, Endless Cacophony... so, gonna try dropping the Seekers and KoS and Warpsmith (even if a Daemon engine survives to be healed, he can’t keep up) for 40 Daemonettes and an extra Fiend. I’ll make the Spearhead a Slaanesh soup to fit 4iend in as a solo unit - the Oblits and Sorcerer don’t need my Legion trait, and I’ve unlocked CSM & CD Stratagems.
Even though it wasn't you playing it, what did you think of the Spartan in the game? Did it get murdered for it's points?
Aheh. She actually got her Spartan in the first place as a reaction to me getting one (which still hasn’t even been built yet). Her approach is to have a trio of characters follow it giving rerolls of 1’s to hit and wound & a cover aura, and keep some brutal chargers safe. It’s pretty brutal and usually kills it’s points value when I face it with any list with big stuff in it! It’s the ‘can always shoot even if locked in combat or falling back’ superpower that really shines. No matter what you throw at it and what’s already fighting it, you’re still going to have to save against one or two Lascannons. Daemon Princes declare challenges and get deleted. Nasty business. In this game, it took a charge from a Diabolic Strength Prescience Defiler that got average rolls, and it survived to fall back and tag in the Wulfen.
I suspect our answers to it might include forty Renegade Cultists, Warptimed up to it and enveloping it. If it can’t fall back to enable other units to shoot your mob, then you’ve immobilised it and the passengers (spread out nicely so as to completely block the 3” disembarkation) and it’ll need an anti-horde melee unit to bail it out. (Do NOT bother trying to entangle it with a solo Fiend unless you’ve already crippled it and can charge from a concealed position - you’ll probably get run over.) If you get a Cultist to touch each side of it so it can’t wiggle around, Characters can charge it from concealed positions and engage from half an inch away, and it can’t shoot at them in its own turn whilst you get to work with a Power Fist. High T & 2+ save also suggests Mortal Wounds. Also, if you’re using Oblits, it’s definitely worth a Command reroll to try to get a great profile on their guns - I put 15W on it with S8 AP-2 D3 fleshmetal guns in a previous encounter with an Epidemius list. Prescience, Lord/Prince rerolls, VotLWEC Oblits will frighten it (in this game, she prioritised killing my Oblits over my last surviving Defiler).
Our own ability to Warptime this behemoth, and it’s capacity for twenty Berzerkers with space for EC & DA, and lack of Relic Vehicle status restricting its use, makes it a very nice prospect indeed. I can see a HERETIC ASTARTES super-Heavy detachment containing it and two Primarchs being interesting.
Be warned: the Aeldari player I fought said his list killed two in the ITC tourney he attended, both on first turn. It is hard countered by Haywire Skyweavers (and Shock Cannon Hive Guard); realistically, you’re not going to screen it against either.
Sadly that would not be a battle forged list, as of the big FAQ banning CHAOS as a detachment keyword and Fallen don’t have the HERETIC ASTARTES Faction Keyword
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.
...hang on. Is there anything actually stopping you from taking FALLEN Rhinos, Helbrutes, Berzerkers, Sorcerers? Unless I’ve overlooked something, main thing would be lack of a LEGION trait, which leaves them as ‘like Word Bearers, but with a specialised Chosen variant’
lindsay40k wrote: ...hang on. Is there anything actually stopping you from taking FALLEN Rhinos, Helbrutes, Berzerkers, Sorcerers? Unless I’ve overlooked something, main thing would be lack of a LEGION trait, which leaves them as ‘like Word Bearers, but with a specialised Chosen variant’
Umm... well I thought people said they couldn't do that because they're not Heretic Astartes, but the Rhino only mentions <Legion>... however I am not sure that the FALLEN keyword is a legion keyword?
lindsay40k wrote: ...hang on. Is there anything actually stopping you from taking FALLEN Rhinos, Helbrutes, Berzerkers, Sorcerers? Unless I’ve overlooked something, main thing would be lack of a LEGION trait, which leaves them as ‘like Word Bearers, but with a specialised Chosen variant’
You are prevented from doing so in the <Legion> section on 116.
lindsay40k wrote: ...hang on. Is there anything actually stopping you from taking FALLEN Rhinos, Helbrutes, Berzerkers, Sorcerers? Unless I’ve overlooked something, main thing would be lack of a LEGION trait, which leaves them as ‘like Word Bearers, but with a specialised Chosen variant’
You are prevented from doing so in the <Legion> section on 116.
Ah yes, I knew there was something. Which is a shame, as it makes fallen fairly unusable as a list type.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.
How about something more like this?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
Double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
5X10 daemonettes
Just going all in on the leviathans and make one of the DP's the CSM murdermachine. Got 6 big threat units that can kill most things they touch. Less fodder daemonettes and no seekers, but more beefy dudes. Could drop a unit of daemonettes to get a sorcerer with warptime to make some stuff move a bit faster
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.
How about something more like this?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
Double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
5X10 daemonettes
Just going all in on the leviathans and make one of the DP's the CSM murdermachine. Got 6 big threat units that can kill most things they touch. Less fodder daemonettes and no seekers, but more beefy dudes. Could drop a unit of daemonettes to get a sorcerer with warptime to make some stuff move a bit faster
That's a very scary list that I, a casual player, would have a very, very hard time defeating. Can't speak to competition. From what I hear, people like the 2 range arm leviathan or the range+melee arm. I don't own one yet. I don't think i could stand up to 3 leviathan with 2 butcher cannons each even with my cheesiest list.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.
How about something more like this?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
Double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
5X10 daemonettes
Just going all in on the leviathans and make one of the DP's the CSM murdermachine. Got 6 big threat units that can kill most things they touch. Less fodder daemonettes and no seekers, but more beefy dudes. Could drop a unit of daemonettes to get a sorcerer with warptime to make some stuff move a bit faster
That's a very scary list that I, a casual player, would have a very, very hard time defeating. Can't speak to competition. From what I hear, people like the 2 range arm leviathan or the range+melee arm. I don't own one yet. I don't think i could stand up to 3 leviathan with 2 butcher cannons each even with my cheesiest list.
That's actually not wholly different to a list I've been trying to play around with, though I only had one leviathan and instead had a couple other big nasty options thrown in.
lindsay40k wrote: ...hang on. Is there anything actually stopping you from taking FALLEN Rhinos, Helbrutes, Berzerkers, Sorcerers? Unless I’ve overlooked something, main thing would be lack of a LEGION trait, which leaves them as ‘like Word Bearers, but with a specialised Chosen variant’
You are prevented from doing so in the <Legion> section on 116.
Ah yes, I knew there was something. Which is a shame, as it makes fallen fairly unusable as a list type.
The main thing stopping Fallen from being any good is not having access to the Rhino nor any mobility shenanigans. You fix EITHER and we would see them more than Chosen.
lindsay40k wrote: ...hang on. Is there anything actually stopping you from taking FALLEN Rhinos, Helbrutes, Berzerkers, Sorcerers? Unless I’ve overlooked something, main thing would be lack of a LEGION trait, which leaves them as ‘like Word Bearers, but with a specialised Chosen variant’
You are prevented from doing so in the <Legion> section on 116.
Ah yes, I knew there was something. Which is a shame, as it makes fallen fairly unusable as a list type.
The main thing stopping Fallen from being any good is not having access to the Rhino nor any mobility shenanigans. You fix EITHER and we would see them more than Chosen.
I actually hadn't thought about shenanigans. If you let FALLEN infiltrate like AL that would be awesome, and seems more appropriate than a transport vehicle.
Anyone using melee Noise Marines? Any thoughts on how they do?
Asking because I saw someone use them in a game a couple weeks ago. No sonics, just chainswords and bolt pistols. The owner was trashing a Tyranid army and explained to me why they work so well.
Completely forgot what he said. But would like to know.
Melee Noise Marines are outclassed almost entirely by Berzerkers. Against Nids I have no idea how that worked out well for him, because in truth the only major advantage noise marines get from going melee is by being the bane of any imperial army. However one hilarious thing you can do if you DO go noise marines in melee is that they can throw grenades when they die, instead of using their pistol. And every model has a grenade. If your unit gets blasted off the face of the board and it's within 6" of any unit? Get ready for multiple krak grenades into their face.
I believe grenades have the same limitations as other weapons, in that they can't be aimed at units within 1" of them. So they would have to throw their grenades at a unit they aren't in melee combat with, but who is still within the 6" range of the grenade. So usually, they'd only get to fire their pistols.
Music of the apocalypse is based on the model not the unit, so you just peel guys from the back of the unit and can toss nades or shoot whatever. That said, music of the apocalypse is an ability that really just makes them immune to being alpha struck before they can fire. Losing your dudes just to shoot or fight one more time is not a winning strategy. Also, even casual nids will eat a noise marine army for breakfast, not even close. Don't believe me just look at a humble unit of tyranid warriors, look at how good their gear is lol. They are like 7 ppm more armed with bone swords and death spitters, so each guy basically gets a power sword, heavy bolter and two more fething wounds LMAO. The venom canon is better then the BM as well, and like I said, thats comparing one of the nid "worst units" and it's still competitive against us, heaven help you when the heavy venom canon carnifexes start trading fire with you sonic dreads...
Got in another game with Slaanesh Daemonkin. Doubles, teamed up with Hive Fleet Kraken against double Space Wolves with the confirmed new content. ITC mission where there’s four objectives and each side picks a ‘castle’ worth +1VP to opponent. The Fiends trick is HORRIFIC if you’re teamed up with forty Genestealers moving like 20”. Buuuut the Fiends do provide some (1) soft, and (2) high priority unit kills.
We lost 19-18, had appalling luck on Oblits and Maulerfiend utterly whiffing (zero damage from 4CP) and Spartan subsequently getting healed up to top profile & killing our Trygon Prime (then Blood Claws sweeping our infantry blob off our bonus objective).
Our main unforced errors IMO:
- allowing a half dozen dreadnoughts to intimidate a Defiler that should have been running past them towards our bonus objective
- our own lack of Lascannons (or anything that could decisively finish off a crippled titanic unit surrounded by 6” heroic interveners)
- clumsy placement of models that should have been tapping objectives
Our list was somewhat vulnerable to forfeiting killed-more-units and killed-10-models, but that’s MSU-horde alliance for you. It’s an approach that needs to play the mission with a strict focus.
New Space Wolves are absolutely a threat IMO, we should expect to face battalions maximising the -1 to be hit aura stratagem and some frightening thunder hammer wielders over the coming months. Practice your charge phase dance moves, denying those 6” HI’s could become a gatekeeper.
If they’d miscast with Njal, you can bet I’d have thrown 1CP at an attempted possession.
lindsay40k wrote: Got in another game with Slaanesh Daemonkin. Doubles, teamed up with Hive Fleet Kraken against double Space Wolves with the confirmed new content.
Spoiler:
ITC mission where there’s four objectives and each side picks a ‘castle’ worth +1VP to opponent. The Fiends trick is HORRIFIC if you’re teamed up with forty Genestealers moving like 20”. Buuuut the Fiends do provide some (1) soft, and (2) high priority unit kills.
We lost 19-18, had appalling luck on Oblits and Maulerfiend utterly whiffing (zero damage from 4CP) and Spartan subsequently getting healed up to top profile & killing our Trygon Prime (then Blood Claws sweeping our infantry blob off our bonus objective).
Our main unforced errors IMO:
- allowing a half dozen dreadnoughts to intimidate a Defiler that should have been running past them towards our bonus objective
- our own lack of Lascannons (or anything that could decisively finish off a crippled titanic unit surrounded by 6” heroic interveners)
- clumsy placement of models that should have been tapping objectives
Our list was somewhat vulnerable to forfeiting killed-more-units and killed-10-models, but that’s MSU-horde alliance for you. It’s an approach that needs to play the mission with a strict focus.
New Space Wolves are absolutely a threat IMO, we should expect to face battalions maximising the -1 to be hit aura stratagem and some frightening thunder hammer wielders over the coming months. Practice your charge phase dance moves, denying those 6” HI’s could become a gatekeeper.
If they’d miscast with Njal, you can bet I’d have thrown 1CP at an attempted possession.
I would assume from reading that another thing not going your way was that, while the two Wolves got to buff each other, you and your opponent did not, because of Keywords. In a real fight, you would have had a unified force against a unified force, rather than what happend: two 1000pt armies (and thereby severely limited in their combos and CP) against what was essentially one 2000pt army.
Whenever I play a team game and I see this shaping up, I either insist that the teams change, or I insist that everyone is treated equally. In this case, it would be as if there were two successor chapters of Wolves so that they couldn't buff each other or use each others' auras.
Eh, it it didn’t occur to us to stop them sharing bonuses, though they only had a few reveals on their Codex to run on so it wasn’t a full Codex army per se. I think the only time it really came up was on Njal dropping defensive auras, buuut these were against ranged only. The only time it caused a game-changing instance - Oblits whiffing against the Spartan - was targeting a unit owned by the same player. Noted for future team games, though.
Still a dangerous army with access to a more powerful and reliable -2 to be hit than Miasma. One that can come with cover for big stuff. Beware!
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, we actually exploited the -1 to be hit aura to force Biovores to automiss and drop Spore Mines where they were needed
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
Hmm. Multiple plasma gunners could be interesting, but if they need to get within 18” to double tap a decent target they’ll probably get exposed to being shot within 12”. Plague Spewers, on the other hand, become an interesting prospect when they start play a millimetre away from hitting targets - and quite enjoy being charged.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Multiple plasma gunners could be interesting, but if they need to get within 18” to double tap a decent target they’ll probably get exposed to being shot within 12”. Plague Spewers, on the other hand, become an interesting prospect when they start play a millimetre away from hitting targets - and quite enjoy being charged.
I meant something like this:
Vanguard detachment
CSM lord (whatever equipment) Alpha Legion (Edit: Why not take a nurgle sorcer with prescience and misama?)
Elites:
5 plague marines: champion with PG, 2 plague spewers. 118 pts (don't have CA handy atm so correct me if i am wrong)
5 plague marines: champion with PG, 2 plague spewers. 118 pts
5 plague marines: champion with PG, 2 plague spewers. 118 pts
Remember when you field them as Alpha legion elites they don't get rapidfire 18 inches, that is why i prefer the price dropped assult 24 plague spewers if that is the right name.
Back that up with some Cheap CP generating detachments (R&H for minimalist tax, cultists battalion for more CSM slots) and you could bring them in position fast whilest they provide quite the output. Also -1 to hit against them makes them really durable potentially, albeit i feel against eldar they possibly are to easy to isolate.
The 24” gun is the Blight Launcher, which costs five Combi-bolters. CA reduced the cost of PMs down to the same as a meltagun.
If you’re investing in Nurgle then a Sorcerer with Miasma makes a lot of sense, however it will ideally be cast on something more substantial than a unit of five.
Well, the main thing is, i wanted to use the starter box DG and my Terminators, mainly however the lord contagion ( as a terminator lord / sorcerer) and a unit of plague marines, aswell as a decimator. Regardless i wanted to potentially see if it could work decently enough if ever i want to go back to play mono csm.
I kind of tried to make them look like rusted Automatons covered in a green "shine" as to represent that they are ghosts, lost in a space hulk. Selling their souls to the Machine in return for existing/ prolonging their (un)-live.
That get's supported by my R&H warband, which is a khornate traitor PDF. Mostly infantery but some Leman Russes and a focus on a mechanzied / airborn fist with a infantery core. Basically in the tabletop my small sample of Marines is there for the heavy lifting or tanking (turns out alpha legion nurgle termis in forward positions can be really annoying to deal with). Cp of course is generated by the teeming masses of cannonfodder in the backfield.
Which of the Terminator (or terminator equivalent) options that Chaos has available is the most viable in general? I know termis aren't in a good place right now, but I'm just looking for the current best.
Basically I'm working on a conversion of some Deathwing Knights (heavy armour, big shields).
Deathshroud/Blightwing might be my current first choice, as they have the extra FnP save which can be shown by the big shield. (Actually also they're 4++ from Cataphractii).
Scarabs work too, as they have the extra defence from All is Dust.
I mostly play friendlies, so they could also be fielded as counts-as units, such as if there are any Daemon units that are a similar statline and base size... but I don't think there are, other than Bloodcrushers but they would need to be mounted units.
Just curious of any thoughts on this. I don't own the Knights yet, I just like the models and think they'd make some cool shrouded/robed heavy-armor cultist type units.
Blightlords definitely seem ok for friendlies. They did well in that recent tourney, leveraging a unique melee weapon, unique ranged weapon, Legion trait, and unit superpowers, but I suspect that list had very particular synergies and it’d be a struggle to make them transfer well to different builds for competitive games.
Other then the allready named ones?
Probably alpha legion terminators with Support from a nurgle sorcerer, to get that sweet -2 for enemy bs.
Blightlords still would be better though i belive.
Not Online!!! wrote: Other then the allready named ones?
Probably alpha legion terminators with Support from a nurgle sorcerer, to get that sweet -2 for enemy bs.
Blightlords still would be better though i belive.
hard to believe termies can get use of Al trait, they drop close to enemy, they will never benefit of that -1
Not Online!!! wrote: Other then the allready named ones?
Probably alpha legion terminators with Support from a nurgle sorcerer, to get that sweet -2 for enemy bs.
Blightlords still would be better though i belive.
hard to believe termies can get use of Al trait, they drop close to enemy, they will never benefit of that -1
All a question of how close you drop and what your intention is.
I prefer mine to drop somewhere in the middle, or even use forward operatives on them as to contest the middle field. Give them the cheapest melee options we have ( energy maces and powerswords), A reaper autocannon and then let them tank in that region. Still, they are not really effective in gaining back points, but siting in cover with a -1 /-2 to hit for enemies makes them really durable. Granted you could do the same with plague marines or havocs etc. for less points with the nearly equal effect.
All a question of how close you drop and what your intention is.
consider they cost a lot and the best they get is at 12" (rapid fire) great plan put them away from enemy so they can eat tons of bullets before get somewhere, if that is whe way to play termies well good luck, i dont add any more words.
All a question of how close you drop and what your intention is.
consider they cost a lot and the best they get is at 12" (rapid fire) great plan put them away from enemy so they can eat tons of bullets before get somewhere, if that is whe way to play termies well good luck, i dont add any more words.
Even in rapid fire range they suck, except wehn you spam combi plasma but that makes them so overpriced you might aswell not play them. It really does not matter since their DPS is stunted anyways. Might aswell make them into pure bullet catchers then no?
All a question of how close you drop and what your intention is.
consider they cost a lot and the best they get is at 12" (rapid fire) great plan put them away from enemy so they can eat tons of bullets before get somewhere, if that is whe way to play termies well good luck, i dont add any more words.
Even in rapid fire range they suck, except wehn you spam combi plasma but that makes them so overpriced you might aswell not play them. It really does not matter since their DPS is stunted anyways. Might aswell make them into pure bullet catchers then no?
imagine how much they sucks beyond rapid fire range as proposed above to get Al legion trait, btw i played blight lords more than 1 time and played right they dont suck.
I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.
Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Try deploying it at the start with twenty Noise Marines aboard. First turn, they disembark to extend their reach an extra 3”, and a load of shock troops get aboard. Warptime it, give it Delightful Agonies, maybe Prescience or Diabolic Strength, and make an absolute mess of your opponent’s lines. Double points if you throw some Fiends of Slaanesh into the T1 charge and nobody can run away from it. You’ll need a distraction Carnifex if you lose T1 or can’t hide it.
Asura Varuna wrote: I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.
Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?
the only real strenght of renegade IK's is the double gatling, respect empire one's, is the best weapon you can use, thermal cannon is unreliable, only d6/2d6 shots
Asura Varuna wrote: I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.
Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?
I use a double battlecannon + rockets on my knight and it's.... alright. The 72" range means that it's easy to keep out of harms way (the rest of my army is quite aggressive), and when it rolls well, it can hit really hard. It's definitely better for taking out vehicles and other hard targets than the avenger is. The downsides are the pointscost (even after codex adjustment) and the randomness. I've definitely had turns where it gets off like 5 or 6 shots, which isn't what you want from a 550 point model. Keeping it at range also means you're not making use of the knight's fantastic combat abilities either, which is a bit of a waist.
If I had to respec it, I would probably go with double avengers + rockets just for reliability, or for a melee fist/sword loadout because they're cheap as hell at around 350pts.
lindsay40k wrote: Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.
Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...
lindsay40k wrote: Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.
Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...
Bezerkers are widely considered to be the best option for infiltration. Cheap and deadly.
I'd really like to see a stratagem added to the game that allows you to add D3 to your charge roll after deepstriking for terminator units (1CP). Having a 25% chance of getting your charge off is just too low for such an elite unit. You can't afford to bring 3-4 of them like you can with other units.
lindsay40k wrote: Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.
Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...
Bezerkers are widely considered to be the best option for infiltration. Cheap and deadly.
I'd really like to see a stratagem added to the game that allows you to add D3 to your charge roll after deepstriking for terminator units (1CP). Having a 25% chance of getting your charge off is just too low for such an elite unit. You can't afford to bring 3-4 of them like you can with other units.
Is it 25% chance? Surely you'd give them the Icon to reroll failed charges, or use a CP reroll on a dice. I don't know what that increases the odds to though, but spending 1cp is certainly worth it for a big expensive unit like that if that was your plan.
Edit - it raises the odds to about 50%, so still not great. But it's a more likely baseline than 25%.
Edit 2 - I just found out that they changed the Helbrute wargear back in april, and you can now have double Scourges. 11 attacks from a dread... might be worth a conversion!
lindsay40k wrote: Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.
Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...
Bezerkers are widely considered to be the best option for infiltration. Cheap and deadly.
I'd really like to see a stratagem added to the game that allows you to add D3 to your charge roll after deepstriking for terminator units (1CP). Having a 25% chance of getting your charge off is just too low for such an elite unit. You can't afford to bring 3-4 of them like you can with other units.
Is it 25% chance? Surely you'd give them the Icon to reroll failed charges, or use a CP reroll on a dice. I don't know what that increases the odds to though, but spending 1cp is certainly worth it for a big expensive unit like that if that was your plan.
Edit - it raises the odds to about 50%, so still not great. But it's a more likely baseline than 25%.
Edit 2 - I just found out that they changed the Helbrute wargear back in april, and you can now have double Scourges. 11 attacks from a dread... might be worth a conversion!
I was thinking about scarabs and deathguard terminators, since that's what people mentioned earlier. With a CP reroll and gaze of fate you can get up to 44% but I still feel like that's too low for such an expensive, elite unit. Especially when you consider how slow terminators move, you'll probably only get one chance to deal damage in assault.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.
How about something more like this?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
Double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
5X10 daemonettes
Just going all in on the leviathans and make one of the DP's the CSM murdermachine. Got 6 big threat units that can kill most things they touch. Less fodder daemonettes and no seekers, but more beefy dudes. Could drop a unit of daemonettes to get a sorcerer with warptime to make some stuff move a bit faster
FYI double butcher leviathan is strictly better than double grav flux, according to a mathhammer analysis on the competitive subreddit. Double grav flux is a trap. It's actually the worst of all of the loadouts due to there simply not being enough shots for the math to outperform 16 S8 D2 butcher shots in almost all shooting scenarios.
lindsay40k wrote: Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.
Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...
yes then the moment you lost initive or opponet steal you start cry. Guys you should ask yourself why those tactics never worked, no one inflitrare terminators, termies are useful cause they can ds and fire/assault without retaliations, if worked like that why no one infiltrate obliterators too? i understand most here play garagehammer but cmon
lindsay40k wrote: Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.
Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...
yes then the moment you lost initive or opponet steal you start cry. Guys you should ask yourself why those tactics never worked, no one inflitrare terminators, termies are useful cause they can ds and fire/assault without retaliations, if worked like that why no one infiltrate obliterators too? i understand most here play garagehammer but cmon
Honestly can't take your responses seriously. You're always so patronising, acting like you're the authority on anything competitive, but I've had to correct you on several occasions because you've quoted incorrect rules or bad math. Actually it's not worth it, just putting him on the ignore list, better for my mental health.
You're saying Oblits and Termis work best as a turn 2/3 deepstrike unit, with a 50/50 chance of making the charge (for the termis, not the oblits obviously). Personally, I prefer the much higher chance (80+%?) of using forward ops on the termis and having them move and charge turn 1 for an actual alpha strike. Using Forward Ops on the Oblits is less useful as you won't charge with them anyway, but getting them on the board a whole turn earlier might be worthwhile depending on the opponent. This relies on first turn though.
But seeing as a lot of tournament army lists are designed around the hopes of having first turn for alpha strikes, this is hardly unusual. It's just the way the game is designed. Whoever gets first turn often has a big advantage.
Asura Varuna wrote: I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.
Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?
the only real strenght of renegade IK's is the double gatling, respect empire one's, is the best weapon you can use, thermal cannon is unreliable, only d6/2d6 shots
A fist/sword is actually really, really strong. It's the cheapest knight you can build, and absolutely murders in melee range.
lindsay40k wrote: Terminators worked when ten of them could deep strike T1 and then Warptime. Either double tap with Slaanesh or double punch with Khorne. In small games they were an absolute wrecking ball, often entangling the entire enemy army. Take that away and...we’ll, what can you do with them? Put them in a Land Raider? It’s an old school solution, but scarecely viable compared with other uses for your points.
Except that with Alpha Legion, they can still do that, right? Except without needing warptime, so actually they can do it cheaper, or use a different psychic power instead to buff their attack.
Though I'm not saying it wouldn't be better to use a different unit as a forward ops shock unit... Not sure what is best though. Plague Marines might be another tough unit, but less wounds and less attacks in melee I guess...
yes then the moment you lost initive or opponet steal you start cry. Guys you should ask yourself why those tactics never worked, no one inflitrare terminators, termies are useful cause they can ds and fire/assault without retaliations, if worked like that why no one infiltrate obliterators too? i understand most here play garagehammer but cmon
Honestly can't take your responses seriously. You're always so patronising, acting like you're the authority on anything competitive, but I've had to correct you on several occasions because you've quoted incorrect rules or bad math. Actually it's not worth it, just putting him on the ignore list, better for my mental health.
You're saying Oblits and Termis work best as a turn 2/3 deepstrike unit, with a 50/50 chance of making the charge (for the termis, not the oblits obviously). Personally, I prefer the much higher chance (80+%?) of using forward ops on the termis and having them move and charge turn 1 for an actual alpha strike. Using Forward Ops on the Oblits is less useful as you won't charge with them anyway, but getting them on the board a whole turn earlier might be worthwhile depending on the opponent. This relies on first turn though.
But seeing as a lot of tournament army lists are designed around the hopes of having first turn for alpha strikes, this is hardly unusual. It's just the way the game is designed. Whoever gets first turn often has a big advantage.
so keep playing ur infiltated termies , eveyone is free to play what like, but if your strategy is so strong wonder why no one ever think to use them like that, regards
Asura Varuna wrote: I'm looking into a renegade knight or 2 to add some fire support to my Chaos/Daemons army. Having scoured the PDF, I was just wondering what the consensus was on the Battlecannon, it seems less reliable than the Avenger, but has the range advantage.
Is there a space for the Thermal cannon as well?
the only real strenght of renegade IK's is the double gatling, respect empire one's, is the best weapon you can use, thermal cannon is unreliable, only d6/2d6 shots
A fist/sword is actually really, really strong. It's the cheapest knight you can build, and absolutely murders in melee range.
yes it is, i was just saying the shooting version is more reliable with double gatling
i played lists with 3 IK and 2 helverins and i played often 2 melee knights, they sure are strong, or 1 shooting Ik 1 melee 2 helverins and Magnus or Mortarion, nice threat saturation.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: I've been thinking about making a slaaneshi daemon list with some fallen support, plus a leviathan. How does a 2k list like this look?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
2X double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
6X10 daemonettes
2X5 seekers
I don't know how the list would work as a whole, but to me it appears you don't have many hard targets. I love my Fallen, but getting into 24" range on foot can be a problem, especially hammer and anvil, and getting into 12" is unrealistic.
How about something more like this?
Spoiler:
Slaaneshi Battalion
Double talon DPs w/wings
Soulstealer DP w/wings and murderdance
5X10 daemonettes
Just going all in on the leviathans and make one of the DP's the CSM murdermachine. Got 6 big threat units that can kill most things they touch. Less fodder daemonettes and no seekers, but more beefy dudes. Could drop a unit of daemonettes to get a sorcerer with warptime to make some stuff move a bit faster
FYI double butcher leviathan is strictly better than double grav flux, according to a mathhammer analysis on the competitive subreddit. Double grav flux is a trap. It's actually the worst of all of the loadouts due to there simply not being enough shots for the math to outperform 16 S8 D2 butcher shots in almost all shooting scenarios.
The grav is better against heavy vehicles and hordes (anything above 15 models, or less depending on the armor of the target), which are the things that the rest of the list has issues dealing with. It might not be the better loadout overall, but it covers the issues with the rest of the army well.
So I'm wanting to build an army around this core:
(WE)
8 Man Zerker Squad (icon, pfist, chainaxes)
Dark Apostle (and/or exalted champ)
Termite Assault Drill
And would love suggestions on what else to take. Zerkers are great but pretty much die on the enemies turn, so I don't wantto over invest. I have found that 8 is typically enough to kill what I want dead (especially with stratagems).
But in all my playing these are the units I've fallen in love with most, and nothing else has really appealed to me as an auto include.
I was considering melee hellbrutes (as they benefit from legion traits),or bloodslaughterers.
I need something that can survive holding mid field while the leviathans tear units up.
Should I ally with deamons? Invest in msucsm? Cultist blobs have proven disappointing. But hey, I'm open to any thoughts.
How do I properly support my backfield dakka, and zerker drill squad?
FYI double butcher leviathan is strictly better than double grav flux, according to a mathhammer analysis on the competitive subreddit. Double grav flux is a trap. It's actually the worst of all of the loadouts due to there simply not being enough shots for the math to outperform 16 S8 D2 butcher shots in almost all shooting scenarios.
The grav is better against heavy vehicles and hordes (anything above 15 models, or less depending on the armor of the target), which are the things that the rest of the list has issues dealing with. It might not be the better loadout overall, but it covers the issues with the rest of the army well.
Yeah that's fair. Against heavy vehicles it's better and the initial shots at a large horde are decent. But you get less shots the more dudes you kill so it's not quite as reliable as the butchers as a multi-purpose weapon. Still I think it works with your intended role of providing something to shoot knights with. Looks like a fun list. Let us know how it turns out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: how did you play cultists? large black legion cultists with Abbadon, fearless 40+40+40 re rolling to hit are a real pain in the ass
I've been toying with the idea of a list with 398 Alpha/Black Legion cultists + Abaddon + Exalted Champion + diabolic strength/prescience Sorcerer. I'm pretty sure it directly counters today's ITC meta if anyone's crazy enough to actually buy that many cultists. Might try simulating the list some time. So far the best thing I've come up with that could deal with it efficiently is 9 dakkafex + gant screen which we almost certainly would not encounter in a knight meta. A guardspam mirror matchup could also theoretically pose a threat. But there's not a lot that will be able match the dakka of almost 1000 autogun shots
For non-ITC scenarios it would pretty much guarantee that you control all objs every turn throughout the course of the game and you would be impossible to table (unless they're running 9 dakkafex). You would also probably wipe out everything T5/3+ and weaker.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
weaver9 wrote: So I'm wanting to build an army around this core:
(WE)
8 Man Zerker Squad (icon, pfist, chainaxes)
Dark Apostle (and/or exalted champ)
Termite Assault Drill
And would love suggestions on what else to take. Zerkers are great but pretty much die on the enemies turn, so I don't wantto over invest. I have found that 8 is typically enough to kill what I want dead (especially with stratagems).
But in all my playing these are the units I've fallen in love with most, and nothing else has really appealed to me as an auto include.
I was considering melee hellbrutes (as they benefit from legion traits),or bloodslaughterers.
I need something that can survive holding mid field while the leviathans tear units up.
Should I ally with deamons? Invest in msucsm? Cultist blobs have proven disappointing. But hey, I'm open to any thoughts.
How do I properly support my backfield dakka, and zerker drill squad?
Cultist are OP as hell. Large blobs don't work without Iron Warrior or Abaddon but you could get a few cheap units of 10 for 40 pts each to keep things from touching your big guns. The other cliche-for-good-reason units I can see helping you keep the mid field are a supreme command detachment of 2 Thousand Sons daemon princes + Ahriman. Lots of smite and melee potential plus enough psychic to dominate most opponents during that phase. I also like the idea of infiltrating Nurglings instead of Alpha Legion cultist as mid field screen but haven't had a chance to test them yet. The 5+++ on 3w infiltrating base just seems annoying as hell to deal with, which is perfect for a cheap screening unit. They're like the chaos version of Alaitoc rangers. Less dakka than Alpha Legion cultists but potentially more difficult to remove? MSUCSM are generally outclassed by cultists in every regard. The first rule of competitive 40k these days seems to be "never take tactical marines"
If you want to kill knights bloodletter bombs math very well assuming you deepstrike turn 2 with a banner of blood for an 83% chance to make your charge. Khorne DP's with skullreavers also hit knights very hard in CC but you really have to ensure they die before getting smashed on the backswing. The other caveat is you need to corner the knight against some terrain or box them in with some nurglings so they can't fall back through your bloodletters and shoot them to pieces. But a max squad of bloodletters w/ re-roll support averages around 23 damage to a knight which is not bad for ~220 points.
Firing double butcher or double storm cannon leviathans is really a treat though. Definitely my favorite point and click delete button in 40k so far.
blackmage wrote: how did you play cultists? large black legion cultists with Abbadon, fearless 40+40+40 re rolling to hit are a real pain in the ass
I've been toying with the idea of a list with 438 Alpha/Black Legion cultists + Abaddon + Exalted Champion + diabolic strength/prescience Sorcerer. I'm pretty sure it directly counters today's ITC meta if anyone's crazy enough to actually buy that many cultists. Might try simulating the list some time. So far the best thing I've come up with that could deal with it efficiently is 9 dakkafex + gant screen which we almost certainly would not encounter in a knight meta. A guardspam mirror matchup could also theoretically pose a threat. But there's not a lot that will be able match the dakka of almost 1000 autogun shots
For non-ITC scenarios it would pretty much guarantee that you control all objs every turn throughout the course of the game and you would be impossible to table (unless they're running 9 dakkafex). You would also probably wipe out everything T5/3+ and weaker.
What’s Diabolic Strength for? It only affects a single model, so I guess you’re buffing Abaddon for a small deathstar with a really big chaff field? If that’s the game, maybe begin with Warptime to give him a running start, then use Familiar to switch out to DS? Alternatively, switch out a unit of Cultists for a second sorcerer with WT and either DA or DH?
Very interesting extreme Scissors build. Would certainly overpower most Stones.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: The Issue I have with that build is it revolves around Abbadon being alive if he gets taken out your basically screwed, which for me is a no go.
Dont get me wrong it would probably be a lot of fun.
pretty hard Abbadon dies when screened by 200 cultists, never seen it happens in any matches i watched, played against. As usual model must be played wisely this is not anymore 7th ediition where you can play immortal units with brain turned off. The real problem of that list (at least for my way to play) is boredom, boring move 200+ models.
...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who gave the Imperium a Warp-damned sniper rifle that fires SCUDs
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: The Issue I have with that build is it revolves around Abbadon being alive if he gets taken out your basically screwed, which for me is a no go.
Dont get me wrong it would probably be a lot of fun.
pretty hard Abbadon dies when screened by 200 cultists, never seen it happens in any matches i watched, played against. As usual model must be played wisely this is not anymore 7th ediition where you can play immortal units with brain turned off. The real problem of that list (at least for my way to play) is boredom, boring move 200+ models.
Not saying it would be easy. Just saying it something to worry about, and given the importance of Abby in that setup it should be worried about a lot. There are a decent number of ways to put mortal wounds on perticular models.
lindsay40k wrote: ...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble
Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.
blackmage wrote: i played lists with 3 IK and 2 helverins and i played often 2 melee knights, they sure are strong, or 1 shooting Ik 1 melee 2 helverins and Magnus or Mortarion, nice threat saturation.
How are the Heliverns? Was looking at a couple to fill up a superheavy detachment with my chaos/Daemons.
lindsay40k wrote: ...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble
Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.
Sniper Rifles that cause mortal wounds, and targeted spells which cause mortal wounds are both serious threats.
Sniper rifles are not taken in number sufficient to counter abadon. It is even pretty dubious that a psycher could get within range of him with that level of bodies without then being within charge range next round. And what will that accomplish? They will try to use their single targeted spell per round, possibly fail, possibly get denied by your sorc, deal a couple of wounds which you will then heal with your strat? And what, manage it again next round while being within at best 24 inches of abadon (and most of those targeted spells are more like 12-18)? Naw.
lindsay40k wrote: ...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble
Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.
I’d expect an IK to throw further Stratagems on the shot at Abaddon, and you can bet they’re re-rolling to try to get 3W damage off the shot, then it’s D3 MW he cant reduce. So that’s 5W down on your turn, you’ll heal D3, so that’s 2-3W down on your turn. Another solid hit, or two turns of okay ones, and he’s toast. I’d certainly be throwing DA at him to slow this attrition down in such matchups, and perhaps Miasma as well.
Sniper rifles are rare, but if this list ever starts to crop up in the wild (NGL, that would be hilarious), I wouldn’t be surprised to see them start hanging around with IKs. Certainly, the IW version would be dead.
lindsay40k wrote: ...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble
Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.
I’d expect an IK to throw further Stratagems on the shot at Abaddon, and you can bet they’re re-rolling to try to get 3W damage off the shot, then it’s D3 MW he cant reduce. So that’s 5W down on your turn, you’ll heal D3, so that’s 2-3W down on your turn. Another solid hit, or two turns of okay ones, and he’s toast. I’d certainly be throwing DA at him to slow this attrition down in such matchups, and perhaps Miasma as well.
Sniper rifles are rare, but if this list ever starts to crop up in the wild (NGL, that would be hilarious), I wouldn’t be surprised to see them start hanging around with IKs. Certainly, the IW version would be dead.
Surely if 3x Knights are taking 3 turns of shooting, plus 6CP+ in stratagems, just to kill abbadon... then he's more than made up for his points in the game, hasn't he? Just going by what you're saying here, I haven't done any Knight maths or anything as I don't own any.
If it takes 3 turns to kill him, woohoo, who cares? Your enemy should not have much capacity to run you down based on morale at that point because attrition will be significant. If they can still threaten multiple units with high levels of anti-infantry fire you've not done well. And if they can only threaten one, then you still have the auto-pass strategy to work with.
Actually, abbadon or removal of abbadon is probably not the problem for that list.
Fielding over 400 cultists on a table with terrain will be a problem.
Except when you are allowed to build cultist pyramids.
What do you think? Too much? I could trade the warpsmith in for a chaos lord. Not sure if rerolling 1s or healing d3 is more important. (I'm leaning towards chaos lord atm).
WRT to IKs killing Abaddon - it’s a single IK, using a stratagem to fire a single weapon at him. One of them Missiles ignores invuls, with a few rerolls from various traits & strats. Be aware it’s out there, if you’ve got an MVP. Best have a backup plan if you need Warptime to shine.
lindsay40k wrote: ...waaaaait. Against an IK army, you’ll be lucky to still have Abaddon alive on turn three what with all the Oathbreakers landing on his head. They can *easily* kill the MVP in an octopus horde, Warmaster or not. Hell, Guilliman sans Honour Guard or apothecary would be in trouble
Abaddon takes half damage, has 7 wounds and can be healed by a stratagem. Oathbreaker costs 2CP and has limited use. I'm not sure it's easy to get rid of him.
indeed it is not but if you keep play garagehammer you cant figure it , kill Abbadon (maybe you need 3 turns rolling a 6 everytime for damage and you must hit everyturn not counting abbadon can be healed or have FNP) then you got 250 cultists all over the table, scoring tons of points, not counting in the meanwhile you take damage on IK's they are not everlasting, last but not least average IK list have 4-6 shielbreaker missile no more, btw i wont get into it more, then they start say im too much competitive and start bother, i only know i test regularly in ETC and nothing is like seems in forumwarhammer, the only thing i feel to suggest to LIndsay is start to play more against competent opponents with serious lists and less forumwarhammer, no harm intended, now i shut up
Abigail taking only three wounds from each swipe of a Reaper Chainsword is pretty hilarious in my imagination. I'm not sad about D Weapons leaving but in this particular instance it's more immersion breaking than the game already is...
What’s Diabolic Strength for? It only affects a single model
OMG I've been reading Diabolic Strength wrong this whole time. I thought it was the whole unit
Oh well, there goes my dreams of 40 cultists swinging 80 times rerolling hits and wounding Knights on 5s XD.
The list is still good though, since it's more about board denial (everything denial) than damage. With 398 cultists and 2" unit coherency and AL infiltration you should be able to comfortably cover all of the walkable space on the board before T1 and outside of enemy deployment. After sending in a tide of traitors to claim the enemy deployment, your opponent basically shouldn't be able to move anything at all after like T2. There will be no room on the board to place units, period
BTW Abby will never die, I wasn't really even considering using him offensively. Maybe he can fight some stuff for lulz but really he's just going to be sitting in the back with 10 tentacles of conga lining cultists spreading their arms across the battlefield.
The ITC secondaries you take are Recon, Ground Control, and Behind Enemy Lines. Recon is almost guaranteed to max out every turn and 3/4 Ground Control points will dominated by cultists before T1 with the 4th point needing to be wrestled away from your opponent's deployment with your overwhelming majority of obsec models. Behind Enemy Lines can be a little trickier since it either means Abaddon needs to be within 6" of the enemy deployment in order to buff the cultist unit that "wholly within". Or you send your exalted champion in there with 120 cultists of screen and leave him there the whole game. Should be able to max out or almost max out your secondaries every game. You will also get Hold 1 every turn and almost certainly get Hold More every turn. You can probably kill a chaff unit or two to get Kill 1 on most turns.
Your opponent will likely also score lots of secondaries as they will take The Reaper and probably Marked for Death. But you will completely edge him out on points for board control, and after killing some of his anti-infantry his ability to score secondaries and efficiently kill 80 cultists a turn will be severely diminished.
There are not a lot of builds that can reliably remove 80 fearless cultists every turn, especially when several hundred of them will have -1 to hit at any given moment. And practically speaking it's a moot point because no one's spamming anti-infantry when there's knights all over the place in the current competitive meta.
This list is especially funny against knights because once you get enough cultists around them they'll lose the ability to move and they're stuck trying to stomp cultists to death with their 12 stomps a turn. It won't be nearly enough.
I'm really looking forward to trolling my buddies in tabletop simulator with this.
blackmage wrote: indeed it is not but if you keep play garagehammer you cant figure it , kill Abbadon (maybe you need 3 turns rolling a 6 everytime for damage and you must hit everyturn not counting abbadon can be healed or have FNP) then you got 250 cultists all over the table, scoring tons of points, not counting in the meanwhile you take damage on IK's they are not everlasting, last but not least average IK list have 4-6 shielbreaker missile no more, btw i wont get into it more, then they start say im too much competitive and start bother, i only know i test regularly in ETC and nothing is like seems in forumwarhammer, the only thing i feel to suggest to LIndsay is start to play more against competent opponents with serious lists and less forumwarhammer, no harm intended, now i shut up
Average castellan/valiant has 2 missiles(since you can't even shoot more than 1 per turn giving 4 is generally waste...Games are often over before you even use that many). With 600 pts per knight where you have 2-3 dominatus as average?
I would say average missile count is actually less than 2 as not every IK list even has one of those big knights.
Then 2 CP and often enough requires either 1 CP(command reroll) or 2 CP(raven house strategem) to ensure one '1' doesn't ruin it. With 3 chance to roll 1 it's pretty darn good chance to roll something bad there and of course vs Abbadon 2 for damage is same as 1.
It's hard to remove 4W characters without halving damage as it is. 5 is very hard. I have done it but it's not something I would rely on. Not sure would I bother firing missiles at Abbaddon myself seeing I would be needing what 4 missiles likely to kill him...(average damage if you hit and wound being 2 so 3 missiles=6 and that's assuming I hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ every time...). Those CP's are short pressed as it is.
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually, abbadon or removal of abbadon is probably not the problem for that list.
Fielding over 400 cultists on a table with terrain will be a problem.
Except when you are allowed to build cultist pyramids.
It's doable, easy. I'm actually more worried about the opposite problem of not being able to cover the whole board since movement denial is key to dominating your ITC primaries and secondaries. A unit of 40 cultists can be compressed to basically a 4"x10" block. 80 cultists would therefore be a 8"x10" block. You only need to fit ~5 of those on a 6x4 board (less than 5 sq ft out of the available ~16 sq ft when accounting for enemy deployment). Easy.
None of your characters will ever be exposed to danger because there will always be hundreds of cultists providing CC screen and character protection at any given moment. The best bet your opponent has for killing Abaddon is psychic but you can easily play around that because you can move, while they can't.
It is the epitome of cheese and super unfair because they're not even playing on a terrain board anymore. They're playing on a solid block of fearless bodies.
But it is also tourney legal.
Someone please buy 400 cultists and win a championship for me.
Not Online!!! wrote: Actually, abbadon or removal of abbadon is probably not the problem for that list.
Fielding over 400 cultists on a table with terrain will be a problem.
Except when you are allowed to build cultist pyramids.
It's doable, easy. I'm actually more worried about the opposite problem of not being able to cover the whole board since movement denial is key to dominating your ITC primaries and secondaries. A unit of 40 cultists can be compressed to basically a 4"x10" block. 80 cultists would therefore be a 8"x10" block. You only need to fit ~5 of those on a 6x4 board (less than 5 sq ft out of the available ~16 sq ft when accounting for enemy deployment). Easy.
None of your characters will ever be exposed to danger because there will always be hundreds of cultists providing CC screen and character protection at any given moment. The best bet your opponent has for killing Abaddon is psychic but you can easily play around that because you can move, while they can't.
It is the epitome of cheese and super unfair because they're not even playing on a terrain board anymore. They're playing on a solid block of fearless bodies.
But it is also tourney legal.
Someone please buy 400 cultists and win a championship for me.
That assumes a) you play on wide side b) there's no terrain to screw you around.
Also no movement trays unless custom made which makes moving them PITA.
For record attachment shows about half that guys that I fielded last week. Took some figuring where to cram everything. And moving around units were bumbing with each other due to terrain. And this with ability to DS squad a turn elsewhere.
Did pretty much lock his army to his DZ which is how(coupled with good luck with maelstrom cards) was how I won. I was basically blown to bits but scored just enough to eek out victory
Now doable but I'm not sure do you really NEED that many cultists to lock up board. I did it fine with half the number of that. Okay orks are slightly different though heavy bolter doesn't care much either way but they are not TWICE as tough.
Photos like that are why I play 40k. That is amazing. The way you won is basically my list's ITC strat. Playing on short side isn't an issue because you can infiltrate up to 200 Alpha Legionaires into the midfield.
The reason for taking the max 398 cultists is to ensure that even armies with good anti-horde will have a hard time killing enough of them before T5.
I think moving them actually isn't QUITE as bad as it seems since most will be standing still every turn anyway. You've already covered the whole board T1 so it's really more about moving the front ones to cover the enemy deployment by T2, then spreading some of them out in the midfield to cover the gap. You're also just rolling bucketloads of one kind of dice really (autoguns) so a dice app + plus lack of real strategizing + your enemy literally can't move on their turn will make the turns go by quicker than it seems.
Thanks. Still need to finish bunch of grots and need to paint those movement trays but while I'm not great painter that horde has certain appeal anyway And I'm blessed with having club with decent terrain(this was actually bit sparse and plain terrain. I was setting up last and due to my time issues was hurry setting up models to movement trays so didn't pay much attention to terrain).
Thing is I think even 300 cultists should fill that trick. I still had stuff left at T5 and I was up against primarily anti-inf DA. Albeit not cheesiest so maybe you have a point.
Ah wish I could use dice app but so far nobody has been willing to allow :-/
And yeah deployment took me awhile! Well not really deployment as such but setting up models to movement trays which I started up before opponent was even clear.
blackmage wrote: indeed it is not but if you keep play garagehammer you cant figure it , kill Abbadon (maybe you need 3 turns rolling a 6 everytime for damage and you must hit everyturn not counting abbadon can be healed or have FNP) then you got 250 cultists all over the table, scoring tons of points, not counting in the meanwhile you take damage on IK's they are not everlasting, last but not least average IK list have 4-6 shielbreaker missile no more, btw i wont get into it more, then they start say im too much competitive and start bother, i only know i test regularly in ETC and nothing is like seems in forumwarhammer, the only thing i feel to suggest to LIndsay is start to play more against competent opponents with serious lists and less forumwarhammer, no harm intended, now i shut up
Average castellan/valiant has 2 missiles(since you can't even shoot more than 1 per turn giving 4 is generally waste...Games are often over before you even use that many). With 600 pts per knight where you have 2-3 dominatus as average?
I would say average missile count is actually less than 2 as not every IK list even has one of those big knights.
Then 2 CP and often enough requires either 1 CP(command reroll) or 2 CP(raven house strategem) to ensure one '1' doesn't ruin it. With 3 chance to roll 1 it's pretty darn good chance to roll something bad there and of course vs Abbadon 2 for damage is same as 1.
It's hard to remove 4W characters without halving damage as it is. 5 is very hard. I have done it but it's not something I would rely on. Not sure would I bother firing missiles at Abbaddon myself seeing I would be needing what 4 missiles likely to kill him...(average damage if you hit and wound being 2 so 3 missiles=6 and that's assuming I hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ every time...). Those CP's are short pressed as it is.
dont tell it to me i know it but someone here pretend shielbreak missiles kills Abbadon, i said no more than 4-6 as total i meant couple of IK's with missiles or one with 4 missiles, was an example.
blackmage wrote: i said no more than 4-6 as total i meant couple of IK's with missiles or one with 4 missiles, was an example.
But not many takes 4 missiles on one knight(since that's seriously bad. You don't generally even get to shoot more than 2...) and 2+ knights is also unusual since those are 600 pts each. I would say average missile count is LESS than 2 actually...
Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.
blackmage wrote: yes i know was an example just to let understand in the worst of case Abbadon and characters like him cant die with shieldbreak missiles.
You're totally right, especially if take in consideration that you can easily give him FnP AND you can use Nurgle's stratagem to heal him.
brugner8 wrote: Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.
Haha I feel your pain. Check all those greenskins. Can you believe I EDGE HIGHLIGHT them? And some parts are 4 stages like red. Khorne red, crimson shade, mephiston red, wazzdakka red.
Grot skin 4 stages(airbrushed green(various shades), biel tan green, warboss green, skarsnik green). I paint grot skin more than I do for orks...
blackmage wrote: yes i know was an example just to let understand in the worst of case Abbadon and characters like him cant die with shieldbreak missiles.
You're totally right, especially if take in consideration that you can easily give him FnP AND you can use Nurgle's stratagem to heal him.
and also a juicy -1 to be hitted via miasma of pestilence, Abbadon dies only if you play him wrong.
Ah, now I don’t think I said IKs kill Abby, I noted that if he’s - as I assumed, with the DS misunderstanding - playing offensively as a key lynchpin & beatstick with no defensive spells, then seeing out turn three is down to luck.
The Oathbreaker doesn’t need to roll a 6 on its Wounds. It needs to roll a 5 or 6 to inflict 3W, and - since there’s ways for IKs to secure the successful wounding other than Command Reroll - an opponent who wants him dead will use a CRR to have a 44% chance of doing that. After that, it’s D3 MW, which - sans DA - takes us up to a concerning likelihood of taking 5W in the first battle round.
Heal 3W with Nurgle strat - 44% chance of that (probably lower, since whilst they’re making a long shot you’re playing defensively, and rerolling a 2 carries a dangerous risk of leaving him 3W away from death) - and a repeat of that still kills him.
That’s with good luck and heavy CP investment on the part of the IK player, and him failing saves. If Abby doesn’t pass a save at AP-4, then an army *relying on him as a beatstick sans defensive spells* is playing the odds.
Doesn’t need LOS, either. So, if I were fielding Abaddon and saw a Dominus, I’d rather have cover bonuses and defensive spells and not need them.
LIndsay as i told play more REAL warhammer, how do you ever think in a list with 200 cultists Abby get into enemy face, he is there to give aura bonus and eventually countercharge nothing more, and % in a game like wh40k mean nothing, more serious play less talk and you ll discover a whole new world believe me, regards.
PS: Abby will NEVER die in that list, unless you play it very wrong, period.
lindsay40k wrote: Ah, now I don’t think I said IKs kill Abby, I noted that if he’s - as I assumed, with the DS misunderstanding - playing offensively as a key lynchpin & beatstick with no defensive spells, then seeing out turn three is down to luck.
The Oathbreaker doesn’t need to roll a 6 on its Wounds. It needs to roll a 5 or 6 to inflict 3W, and - since there’s ways for IKs to secure the successful wounding other than Command Reroll - an opponent who wants him dead will use a CRR to have a 44% chance of doing that. After that, it’s D3 MW, which - sans DA - takes us up to a concerning likelihood of taking 5W in the first battle round.
Where d3 mw comes from? Missile doesn't have it nor oathbreaker. Have i missed some trick?
Waaaaait. I’ve been misreading the weapon profile. That’s on the big knight’s harpoon, not their missiles. There’s our misunderstanding. Yeah, go for it, walk Abby right on up to a Knight army like Zangief and give them one for me. D’oh
brugner8 wrote: Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.
Please do, and tell me if it works.
Oops I've been counting 1 extra unit of cultists this whole time. It's actually 398 cultists max if you want the sorc/exalted champion. Will edit my previous posts. Here's the list btw:
Alpha Legion Auxiliary Support -1CP
38x Cultists, Autoguns, Nurgle
Not sure how useful Miasma is when your opponent has so many other viable targets. Might be helpful for some of the units that are inside enemy deployment scoring Behind Enemy Lines.
A few units of melee cultists could be included to take advantage of the Exalted Champion's wound rerolls in CC and to screen for your autoguns. The sorcerer could also take Death Hex instead of Miasma which would ruin anything that relies more on invulns than normal saves. Also threw in some Mark of Slaanesh for some doubleshoot flavor and if you want to use Delighful Agonies instead of Miasma. None of these considerations are likely to matter since the list isn't really about damage anyway.
I'd expect to spend between 3 and 5 CP before T1 depending on how many AL cultists you need to infiltrate to flood the midfield. Must save at least 2CP to Tide of Traitors into enemy deployment at some point. Anything left should probably be saved for VOTLW/Endless Cacophony.
Okay i was starting to wonder have i been playing my missiles too weak d6 wounds ignoring inv and d3 mw would be lot more reliable taking out those 4-5 wound chars.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So not only does Abigail and Calgar survive two hits with the Reaper Chainsword, they can get hit by the Harpoon too.
Someone needs to make models of them with giant harpoons sticking out of them.
In fairness though, these are abstract rules that reflect all sorts of variables. I mean, actually hitting any one specific human-sized model with a weapon as slow and cumbersome as a knight's chainsword is already pretty hit-and-miss, and the saves for Abbadon are simulating things like Armour, Energy Fields, Dodging reflexes, Divine Intervention (in a fairly literal sense haha) and the like. Abbaddoonn, with 4 entire deities looking over his shoulder and knocking off the aim of nearby enemies, has a lot of plot armour to get through!
However I would give bonus points to an Abbaddononn model with a harpoon sticking through it. Even more points if it's through the head like one of those novelty arrows.
brugner8 wrote: Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.
Please do, and tell me if it works.
Oops I've been counting 1 extra unit of cultists this whole time. It's actually 398 cultists max if you want the sorc/exalted champion. Will edit my previous posts. Here's the list btw:
Well certainly will be rather hard to clear. I just played game with similar strategy(just lock enemy off from objectives and score) with my orks(if you are interested BR on ork tactica thread). My list wasn't even particularly OPTIMIZED for that as I had only like 180 models with boyz and grots which is actually fairly little as I wanted to field bit more variable list for sake of fun so had 2 fliers and battlewagon with horribly overpriced flash gits and lootas but still. Basic core strategy of flooding board with cheap bodies and scoring worked fairly well. If opponent had had more aggressive elements it would have been harder but his gunline was very stationary. Then again I was fielding about half the number of cheap chaff in favour of shooty elements that didn't shoot that much and 2/3 of my stuff being softer than your cultists...
Not army I would like to play in random pick up games all the time(would get one dimensional) but occasionally to throw a curve ball or tournament? Sure!
lindsay40k wrote: Now all I can hear is Fred Flintstone ABBADABBADOOOOON
Haha, awesome, glad I could put that image in your head!
So onto another topic:
I'm considering a couple of future builds/conversions for my Dark Mechanicus style of army (which is basically my way of buying Chaos and AdMech units because who doesn't love evil robots?)
Ruststalkers / Infiltrators are a model I like a lot, though if I ever play a game as AdMech (or killteam with them), I'd probably run Infiltrators. Is there a decent option for CSM for a Melee+Pistol type of unit? I was thinking Berserkers, but they're usually much better with Sword+Axe (which is more of a Ruststalker type of combo, which is also possible with a magnetised arm). The other problem being the slightly different base size, but I think I'm safe with that with my normal opponents.
Kastellan robots are probably going to become Helbrutes or contemptors, if only because I like the idea of a Crazed lost-in-space robot.
Going to potentially make a leviathan or armiger using Onager legs, for a crab/scorpion kind of a look.
Cultists will be Vanguard/Rangers, because they're basically already decent looking cultist troops in the robes and cloaks. That'll be an easy job.
Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this, as well as any notions on what I could use ruststalkers/infiltrators as (this includes Daemon options, though none came to mind). OR any other ideas you might have, such as Dragoon conversions, though I'm pretty sure there's nothing Chaos has access to which is a similar size/base/loadout.
lindsay40k wrote: Now all I can hear is Fred Flintstone ABBADABBADOOOOON
Haha, awesome, glad I could put that image in your head!
So onto another topic:
I'm considering a couple of future builds/conversions for my Dark Mechanicus style of army (which is basically my way of buying Chaos and AdMech units because who doesn't love evil robots?)
Ruststalkers / Infiltrators are a model I like a lot, though if I ever play a game as AdMech (or killteam with them), I'd probably run Infiltrators. Is there a decent option for CSM for a Melee+Pistol type of unit? I was thinking Berserkers, but they're usually much better with Sword+Axe (which is more of a Ruststalker type of combo, which is also possible with a magnetised arm). The other problem being the slightly different base size, but I think I'm safe with that with my normal opponents.
Kastellan robots are probably going to become Helbrutes or contemptors, if only because I like the idea of a Crazed lost-in-space robot.
Going to potentially make a leviathan or armiger using Onager legs, for a crab/scorpion kind of a look.
Cultists will be Vanguard/Rangers, because they're basically already decent looking cultist troops in the robes and cloaks. That'll be an easy job.
Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this, as well as any notions on what I could use ruststalkers/infiltrators as (this includes Daemon options, though none came to mind). OR any other ideas you might have, such as Dragoon conversions, though I'm pretty sure there's nothing Chaos has access to which is a similar size/base/loadout.
Ruststalkers, other then Spawn like mentioned before, i think you could run them as exalted Champion, Chaos lord if properly converted or probably most fitting Mutilators (Ca dropped their prices again so maybee they could be worth it).
If you get a big base and a lot of free time might aswell convert 3-4 of them into a single abomination of metal, daemon and flesh and use that as a Daemonprince.
Or you convert one into a Warpsmith or two, you'll need axes though.
Infiltrators: If you can modify them, gun needs a stock probably, why not use them as plague marines? Considering they are relative big nasty metal thingyies the profile would fit them.Alternatively what would you think about Rubrics? Albeit then you need to get rid of the CQC weapon, probably.
If you go down dark Admech, you should consider probably Hellblades/ talons aswell as Decimators, probably some of the most iconic Dark Mechanicus units there are atm.
There is also the fact as which <Legion> you play, since the buffs are kind of important. I think three of them would fit very well:
Iron Warriors: most fluffy one, gets also the warlord trait cold and bitter, Cultists will be a major thing, and who doesn't like a tide of fearless automatons controlled by a Heretek magos?
Alpha Legion: -1 to hit = 1/6 th more durability for everything, so long it's not a vehicle: Basically Instead of fearless automatons you now would get tougher automatons on the field: regardless of what body you use. Additionally the warlord trait has something of a puppet army, bouncing from Character to Character, making it seem like the army is controlled from beyond the field.
Black Legion: Advancing and shooting? A teeming mass of highly developped heretek automatons? The warlord trait is meh, the bonus on morale however certainly something fluffy i think for a wannabee terminator army. (also abbadon or count as abbadon: who would not love a heretek magos coordinating the shooting of his automatons in the midst of battle?)
RE ruststalkers/infiltrators: a bit small to be Spawn or Muties, but perhaps could run them as Possessed? M7 & AP-2 would perhaps be a reasonably easy approximation of WYSIWYG for your opponent looking at the gangly cloud of assorted glowing blades and trying to remember what kind of CSM unit it is
brugner8 wrote: Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.
Please do, and tell me if it works.
Oops I've been counting 1 extra unit of cultists this whole time. It's actually 398 cultists max if you want the sorc/exalted champion. Will edit my previous posts. Here's the list btw:
Alpha Legion Auxiliary Support -1CP
38x Cultists, Autoguns, Nurgle
Not sure how useful Miasma is when your opponent has so many other viable targets. Might be helpful for some of the units that are inside enemy deployment scoring Behind Enemy Lines.
A few units of melee cultists could be included to take advantage of the Exalted Champion's wound rerolls in CC and to screen for your autoguns. The sorcerer could also take Death Hex instead of Miasma which would ruin anything that relies more on invulns than normal saves. Also threw in some Mark of Slaanesh for some doubleshoot flavor and if you want to use Delighful Agonies instead of Miasma. None of these considerations are likely to matter since the list isn't really about damage anyway.
I'd expect to spend between 3 and 5 CP before T1 depending on how many AL cultists you need to infiltrate to flood the midfield. Must save at least 2CP to Tide of Traitors into enemy deployment at some point. Anything left should probably be saved for VOTLW/Endless Cacophony.
Tha's a fun list, indeed, anyway I think that you need to field at least three sorcerers and consequently thin the numbers of cultists.
lindsay40k wrote: RE ruststalkers/infiltrators: a bit small to be Spawn or Muties, but perhaps could run them as Possessed? M7 & AP-2 would perhaps be a reasonably easy approximation of WYSIWYG for your opponent looking at the gangly cloud of assorted glowing blades and trying to remember what kind of CSM unit it is
Great list of ideas! Thanks to both of you (I only quoted Lindsay but the person before had a nice long post of ideas).
I did consider Possessed, but they seemed a bit... lacklustre. They just don't seem worth using, though maybe I'm not giving them enough credit? Much the same for Mutilators really.
I did think that either Berserkers or Plague Marines might work for it. Berserkers have the right double-melee or melee+pistol, Plagues would take some converting for things like Flails but I think it could work.
Also considered things like Bloodletters, or Fiends.
Also did think of Spawn, but I don't think I'm likely to run many (if any) spawn.
Just a few quick question on the beta rules for detachment changes:
Do all the detachments have to have the same faction keyword (eg Death Guard)?
Or is it every unit within a given detachment has to have the same faction keyword, but your army can include detachments with different keywords?
Also with Chaos Daemons specifically, are the faction keywords "Daemon" and "Nurgle", or is it "Nurgle Daemon"? If it's "Nurgle", does this mean CD units can share the same detachment as a CSM unit with Mark of "Nurgle"?
If it's "Nurgle Daemon" does that mean a unit cannot share a detachment with a model with "Slannesh Daemon" and still be battleforged?
If a model has the Mark of "Nurgle" as a keyword, but is "Alpha Legion", can it share a detachment with a unit has has Mark of "Nurgle", but is "Nightlord"?
Asura Varuna wrote: Just a few quick question on the beta rules for detachment changes:
Do all the detachments have to have the same faction keyword (eg Death Guard)?
Or is it every unit within a given detachment has to have the same faction keyword, but your army can include detachments with different keywords?
Also with Chaos Daemons specifically, are the faction keywords "Daemon" and "Nurgle", or is it "Nurgle Daemon"? If it's "Nurgle", does this mean CD units can share the same detachment as a CSM unit with Mark of "Nurgle"?
If it's "Nurgle Daemon" does that mean a unit cannot share a detachment with a model with "Slannesh Daemon" and still be battleforged?
If a model has the Mark of "Nurgle" as a keyword, but is "Alpha Legion", can it share a detachment with a unit has has Mark of "Nurgle", but is "Nightlord"?
Firstly, it is Nurgle and Daemon, but remember it is <Daemon Alliegence> for Nurgle, and Daemon is just a flat faction keyword. If it were "nurgle daemon" as one keyword, you wouldn't be able to use the generic stratagems that just say "Daemon", because the one word Keyword isn't present.
Also, the detachment itself has to be all death guard, not the army. You can have a detachment of T-sons, DeathGuard and CSM in one army.
Okay, so "Mark of Chaos" and "Allegiance" are not compatible shared keywords for a detachment even if they're the same god.
What about using a "Mark of Chaos" as a keyword to allow 2 different legions within the same detachment, obviously providing that all the units within the detachment share the same "Mark of Chaos"?
drakerocket wrote: You could do that, to my understanding, but you'd lose your legion benefit and only have access to relics and legion specific stratagems
Actually, if you had only <NURGLE> detachments, that weren't wholly either a <legion> or all <Daemon>, then you wouldn't get access to any stratagems. You need a Chaos Daemons or Heretic Astartes or Death Guard detachment to unlock those.
You would get a relic from your Warlord though.
At least this is how I understand things!
My topic:
Back to my Dark Mech thoughts - If I do decide to go for Plague Marines (as the resilience is very similar to how AdMech units work), how are they best run? Are Plagues actually any good? They seem to have decent lifespans, but they have 1 attack each compared to berzerkers 6 attacks each so they don't seem worthwhile in Melee... do they have any decently powerful loadouts?
Niiru wrote: My topic:
Back to my Dark Mech thoughts - If I do decide to go for Plague Marines (as the resilience is very similar to how AdMech units work), how are they best run? Are Plagues actually any good? They seem to have decent lifespans, but they have 1 attack each compared to berzerkers 6 attacks each so they don't seem worthwhile in Melee... do they have any decently powerful loadouts?
To me, the best loadout for Plague Marines is 3x Plasmaguns (since the Champion and 2 regular joes can take them), or 2x Blight Launchers. Melee seems like a poor way to run them, as they only get 1 attack base. Admittedly some melee loadouts grant an extra attack, but still as you mentioned berzerkers do that much better and cheaper. Hell, even Possessed do better melee than Plague Marines.
Now, personally I wouldn't run Plague Marines in a non-Death Guard list. You want them to have ObSec if possible, and they benefit greatly from the Death Guard trait (increasing their rapid fire weapons' double tap range to 18").
brugner8 wrote: Actually I own 210 cultists, plus 180 zombies. I could try the troll list using zombies as cultists.
The most orrific thing is...to paint them! even using dipping technique and airbrush it takes you a lot of boring time.
They used to sell very large bags of mutant chronicles basic troops and I grabbed a few of them some times ago.
Spoiler:
Please do, and tell me if it works.
Oops I've been counting 1 extra unit of cultists this whole time. It's actually 398 cultists max if you want the sorc/exalted champion. Will edit my previous posts. Here's the list btw:
Alpha Legion Auxiliary Support -1CP
38x Cultists, Autoguns, Nurgle
Not sure how useful Miasma is when your opponent has so many other viable targets. Might be helpful for some of the units that are inside enemy deployment scoring Behind Enemy Lines.
A few units of melee cultists could be included to take advantage of the Exalted Champion's wound rerolls in CC and to screen for your autoguns. The sorcerer could also take Death Hex instead of Miasma which would ruin anything that relies more on invulns than normal saves. Also threw in some Mark of Slaanesh for some doubleshoot flavor and if you want to use Delighful Agonies instead of Miasma. None of these considerations are likely to matter since the list isn't really about damage anyway.
I'd expect to spend between 3 and 5 CP before T1 depending on how many AL cultists you need to infiltrate to flood the midfield. Must save at least 2CP to Tide of Traitors into enemy deployment at some point. Anything left should probably be saved for VOTLW/Endless Cacophony.
Tha's a fun list, indeed, anyway I think that you need to field at least three sorcerers and consequently thin the numbers of cultists.
One for Delightful Agonies, one for Miasma, and one for Weaver? Plus Prescience, Death Hex and Warptime I guess?
If you lose the auxiliary detachment of 38 cultists and the exalted champion, you get +6 CP, 2 more sorcerers, and 26pts left to spend on goodies. That's enough for a jump back and couple of combi-bolters for your wizards. I like it.
I just realized one of the reasons why cultists are so good is that its basically 4pts for a dude with a bolter when you spend 1 CP for VOTLW. That's ridiculous value compared to tactical marines lol. It's actually better than a bolter because you'd wound T8+ on 5s still.
Had a 4k point game where I tried out three leviathans. One of the melee ones punched a macharius to death.
I definitely like the melee loadout for them. Warptiming that amount of punchyness is awesome.
The mark of chaos is more or less just an added bonus for fluff, and a requirement for stratagems, relics and the like. Now bare in mind, some things do absolutely benefit mark of chaos.
A Bloodmaster gives +1 strength to Warp Talons and allows them to reroll charges.
The mark of chaos is more or less just an added bonus for fluff, and a requirement for stratagems, relics and the like. Now bare in mind, some things do absolutely benefit mark of chaos.
A Bloodmaster gives +1 strength to Warp Talons and allows them to reroll charges.
I'm pretty sure once you pick a Mark and/or an Allegiance they're functionally the same for list building as a keyword, so you can have a BF detachment with a WB juggerlord, WE zerkers, and bloodletters that just won't get a legion trait.
Ok so this is beyond my mathhammer so looking for opinions. Putting together a CC list to hit hard, baring in mind i have space in a rhino so delivery is reasonably covered, i was initially thinking i would add a winged deamon prince with malefic talons. now im thinking i might be better just going with a lord with the black mace and saving around 100 points.
chaos lord
T4 5W 3+ 4++
4 attacks
2+
S7 -2 2D (chance for MWs)
prince
T6 8W 3+ 5++
7 attacks
2+
S7 -2 2D
okay so the beff auras are the same, ignoring the black mace MWs they hit equally as hard but the prince hits more times. Also the prince is arguably more resilient with the T6 and 8W regardless of the lower inv.
But is the prince worth the 100 point difference? If i was planning for the prince to advance behind the rhinos anyway, why not stick a lord in the rhinos instead and save 100 points for something else?
What about taking 2 lords in one of the rhinos? (i have 4 spaces) obviously the second lord cant take the black mace but it does double the attacks and resilience. Be interested in your thoughts...
You're obligated to take the Lord with a Jump Pack, Bike, or Steed simply because he's too slow. Knowing that alone, the Prince is worth the price increase.
So I've considered adding a Bloat Drone or two to my list build idea, as I fancied adding some anti-horde/infantry flamers to my list and they seemed like a pretty sturdy unit. However I do already have a lot of sturdy units, and am a little short on pure dakka, so I ran some comparisons...
6x Tzeentch Flamers - 12" range, 6D6 S4 AP-1 Auto Hit, and for 1 CP can be deepstriked onto the table and still flame due to their long range.
I have to say, I'm tempted by the flamers. They seem to be even deadlier than the Exalted, though the Exalted is handy to hide as it's a character and it's also a 3-shot lascannon.
I know the flamers will be less tough, but they can also stay totally off the board until needed which helps.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
If your aim is tournaments, get used to running 3; in the us itc format major tournaments they have ruled that all demon prince data sheets are essentially the same (sane for things like leman russ variants and other models that skirted this rule) for the sake of the rule of 3.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
There’s been discussion on a ‘every DP’ list in the Chaos Daemons thread that generally concluded that it’s viable in an IK-rich meta, but not worth the investment if you want to take it to tourneys where TOs will be making rulings on whether the four named variants of DP constitute the same datasheet
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
There’s been discussion on a ‘every DP’ list in the Chaos Daemons thread that generally concluded that it’s viable in an IK-rich meta, but not worth the investment if you want to take it to tourneys where TOs will be making rulings on whether the four named variants of DP constitute the same datasheet
Bingo. And most TO's are following the rulings of BAO and the ATC.
Which makes sense, I believe it was an oversight when they instituted the rule of 3. Most stuff that can abuse the loophole aren't broken, lol.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.
Just a spot of math...
7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.
So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.
Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.
My intention with the prince is to support a couple of rhinos with berserkers and chosen in. Is he still worth the extra 100 points if I could otherwise put a lord in one of the rhinos?
My current plan is 2 rhinos, one with 5 berserkers and 5 Combi bolter chosen the other with 6 berserkers and an exalted champ so I have room for a lord, or even 2 lords instead of the Prince.
That's very true. I guess it's the post initial strike movement that is the deal breaker. I'm a big fan of using the daemon shell strat on a pretty plain lord so I was trying to avoid dropping him but maybe the prince is the better choice
Abaddon303 wrote: Ok so this is beyond my mathhammer so looking for opinions. Putting together a CC list to hit hard, baring in mind i have space in a rhino so delivery is reasonably covered, i was initially thinking i would add a winged deamon prince with malefic talons. now im thinking i might be better just going with a lord with the black mace and saving around 100 points.
chaos lord
T4 5W 3+ 4++
4 attacks
2+
S7 -2 2D (chance for MWs)
prince
T6 8W 3+ 5++
7 attacks
2+
S7 -2 2D
okay so the beff auras are the same, ignoring the black mace MWs they hit equally as hard but the prince hits more times. Also the prince is arguably more resilient with the T6 and 8W regardless of the lower inv.
But is the prince worth the 100 point difference? If i was planning for the prince to advance behind the rhinos anyway, why not stick a lord in the rhinos instead and save 100 points for something else?
What about taking 2 lords in one of the rhinos? (i have 4 spaces) obviously the second lord cant take the black mace but it does double the attacks and resilience. Be interested in your thoughts...
Personally if you want a cheap beatstick HQ and you haven't chosen which Legion you want, I'd say go Alpha Legion and take a Jump Pack Lord with the Blade of the Hydra. 93 points (I think) gets you 4+d3 S5 AP-2 D2 attacks. Plus the AL trait is probably the best one in the book. If you really want a killy DP, make it Slaanesh and take the Intoxicating Elixir (and go with Diabolic Strength as it's psychic power). 9 attacks at S10 AP-2 D2 if Diabolic Strength goes off. That's my go-to build for a Prince when I run CSM.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.
Just a spot of math...
7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.
So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.
Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.
maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.
Just a spot of math...
7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.
So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.
Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.
maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.
What does this even mean?
Calculating your odds against an Imperial Knight is kinda important.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.
Just a spot of math...
7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.
So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.
Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.
maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.
What does this even mean?
Calculating your odds against an Imperial Knight is kinda important.
Just ignore him, he always comes up with unhelpful comments like this. I put him on my ignore list a while ago and this tactica thread has been a much nicer place since!
The DP I have just finished painting has been converted into carrying a big big axe, simply because I wanted a super killy daemon prince and the Skullreaver seemed like one of the best available. Though I do also plan to have another prince in my list... not sure yet if it'll be a Death Guard one or a Vanilla Slaanesh / Elixir one...
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.
Just a spot of math...
7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.
So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.
Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.
maybe if you play bit more and forget mathammer you will understand better, cheers.
Bro, I like your opinions. But he's agreeing with you here, DP's are indeed awesome.
weaver9 wrote: Has anyone run 4+ daemon princes? If so how did it do?
dp's are awesome, lately i played 2 Ts dp's 1 nurgle demons Dp and one korne dp with skullreaver, they outperform many units with roughly same point value and pose a threath to many others, the skullreaver prince, annilathed a gallant Ik in 1 combat round, 7 str 13 ap -4 d6 damage attacks rerolling to hit and wound against titanic (plus chance to inflict mortal wounds) is a force to reckon with, ts provide psychic support and nurgle ones deal with heavy targets, i found this a nice mix.
Just a spot of math...
7 Attacks
245/36 hits
490/81 wounds
490/81 unsaved
1,715/81 damage, or 21.17 damage on average.
So you do need to roll slightly above average to kill a Knight.
Exact odds, or close enough, are a 44.84% chance to kill a Knight, assuming you don't spend a CP on a low damage die. This was done on Anydice, found here.
Give the Skullreaver prince the Legendary Fighter warlord trait. Get that 24 wound average round of combat! ;-)
Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?
Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.
Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?
I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...
Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.
I’m currently working on a second quintet of Khonrnate Warp Talons, and I can only see myself having them rendezvous with Karanak to try to pull off their charging trick in gimmicky friendly context. Even reserving a CRR for a 1-6 or 2-5 split makes the odds unacceptably volatile for any kind of competitive play.
And that’s coming from someone who’s mucking around with Fiends of Slaanesh and Maulerfiends as a niche list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I did take WTs when they could Warptime on arrival, whereupon they were an utterly terrifying wrecking ball and overwhelming counter to Aggressors, but now they’re possibly even worse than their original incarnation - which could at least make a risky close landing to try to get the charge off
lindsay40k wrote: I’m currently working on a second quintet of Khonrnate Warp Talons, and I can only see myself having them rendezvous with Karanak to try to pull off their charging trick in gimmicky friendly context. Even reserving a CRR for a 1-6 or 2-5 split makes the odds unacceptably volatile for any kind of competitive play.
And that’s coming from someone who’s mucking around with Fiends of Slaanesh and Maulerfiends as a niche list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I did take WTs when they could Warptime on arrival, whereupon they were an utterly terrifying wrecking ball and overwhelming counter to Aggressors, but now they’re possibly even worse than their original incarnation - which could at least make a risky close landing to try to get the charge off
So would you say that raptors have a better role to play? Or are both units currently garbage? I have considered having a unit of one or the other and just starting it on the table, using it as a distraction carnifex of sorts as well as a shield for princes. Or alpha legion forward operatives them.
I think raptors are good only to drop in turn three on or near an uncontested objective in cover and try to survive. I tend to give them a couple of plasmas for the range if I can spare the points...
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?
Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.
Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?
I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...
Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.
Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.
Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?
Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.
Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?
I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...
Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.
Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.
Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?
Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.
My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.
I wanted Raptors and Warp Talons to work, but they have been nerfed hard and Raptors seem to have a specific niche of drop in on turn 3, avoid eye contact with everybody, maybe pounce on a 10 GEQ unit camping on an objective & make spooky noises at them until they go away. Nurgle Icon isn't a terrible idea on them, but this could be throwing good money after bad... there's an ultra-niche Night Lords build that will be utterly useless against Tyranids and Orks and Abaddon/Guilliman/IW castles
I wanted to try nurgle warp talons myself in an epidemus build, but for the cost they dont really do much that something else cant do better. Raptors are interesting with meltas, but melta isnt that amazing currently, and still id rather spend points on something else.
How good is a Black Legion Spearhead Detachment with Abby, do people run them with Predators, Vindicators or are Forgefiends also something?
I am looking for fun ways to use the Abaddon model I have. I like the Forgefiend models the best but I don't know if its to expensive for what it does. The Predator en Vindicators bring Strategem bonuses.
Alternatively 3 squads of Obliterators might also work. The rest of my list is mostly DGDP's and Bloat Drones.
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?
Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.
Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?
I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...
Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.
Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.
Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?
Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.
My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.
Ahh okay I see it now. I believe that puts them at a 58% chance at getting the charge from 9" which isn't too bad as long as you bring more then 1 unit it could be a good way to avoid overwatch from armies.
Also, Alpha Legion would benefit as you get a -1 to hit outside of 12 inchs which means plasma that isn't close isn't OCing and Plasma that is close can be handled by infiltrating AL units.
Personally, I don't run WTs all that much when I do I don't bother with Deepstriking them since Warp Time puts them at 24" before they charge coupled with prescience and a few other spells they are more then able to do what I need them to do usually.
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?
Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.
Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?
I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...
Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.
Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.
Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?
Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.
My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.
Ahh okay I see it now. I believe that puts them at a 58% chance at getting the charge from 9" which isn't too bad as long as you bring more then 1 unit it could be a good way to avoid overwatch from armies.
Also, Alpha Legion would benefit as you get a -1 to hit outside of 12 inchs which means plasma that isn't close isn't OCing and Plasma that is close can be handled by infiltrating AL units.
Personally, I don't run WTs all that much when I do I bother with Deepstriking them since Warp Time puts them at 24" before they charge coupled with prescience and a few other spells they are more then able to do what I need them to do usually.
Locus of rage does affect warp talons, everything from the daemon codex does except for the stratagems.
Also the chance of making a 9 inch charge is 25% or 44% with rerolls, not 58%
I think he meant 48% for the charge from Deep Strike with rerolls. It isn't terrible odds, but for a unit like Warp Talons they're too expensive for that.
Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -
NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY
What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?
They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.
For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).
Maulerfiends aren't terrible, though they aren't great. The hit to the Magna Cutters really did them in for me, though to be fair those models I made aren't in existence anymore so it shouldn't matter Haha
Niiru wrote: Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -
NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY
What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?
They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.
For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).
Possesed are my favourite units to play just for fun. Honestly I like any CSM unit that has a daemon keyword because I like the various interactions you can come up with.
For example, the warp talons mentioned above; World Eater talons with prescience, VotLW and a nearby Crimson crown herald can end up with 5-6 S5 -2ap attacks rerolling wounds. It's a lot of work to make an expensive unit almost competitive, but it's fun
Niiru wrote: Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -
NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY
What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?
They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.
For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).
Possesed are my favourite units to play just for fun. Honestly I like any CSM unit that has a daemon keyword because I like the various interactions you can come up with.
For example, the warp talons mentioned above; World Eater talons with prescience, VotLW and a nearby Crimson crown herald can end up with 5-6 S5 -2ap attacks rerolling wounds. It's a lot of work to make an expensive unit almost competitive, but it's fun
How do you get to 5-6 attacks?
Warp Talons = 1
Lightning Claws = 1
World Eaters = 1
Crimson Crown = +1 if they get a 6 to wound
...and that's all I could find, other than the Champion I guess who gets an extra attack. But it's still mostly 3 attacks, with a very rare 4th attack (that I can see anyway).
Still not bad, with -2AP should mulch through some loyalist scum.
Niiru wrote:Would warp talons become usable, or even halfway good, if they were able to take the icon of wrath like raptors can?
Raptors are a unit I want to like, but they seem to be weak on melee and shooting, which is a shame.
Warp talons I'm not sure about, as their inability to get their charge off is a big obstacle. Would people take them if they could have the reroll charges icon?
I ask because I may be having a khorne detachment, which would mean the locus around the khorne hqs would help them...
Otherwise I might just stick to princes as my flyers. Would be nice to have a flying bodyguard for them though.
Well if your going World Eaters as your Legion they would be S5 A4/3 AP-2 D1 on the charge, which is not too bad. Unfortunately WT are better with the other Chaos gods due to the buffs they can get from spells.
Actually im curious wouldn't Warp Talons benefit from the Locus of Rage bonus from a Daemon Character since they have the Daemon keyword?
Haha, read my post a littler closer, you'll notice that I specifically asked the question because I might have the Locus of Rage on my Daemon HQ's. The reason I started by asking about the Icon of Wrath is because it's the same buff.
My CSM detachment will be... I'm not sure actually. Alpha Legion or Death Guard. But obviously if I take Raptors or Talons, they can't be Death Guard. And they wouldn't benefit much from Alpha either.
Ahh okay I see it now. I believe that puts them at a 58% chance at getting the charge from 9" which isn't too bad as long as you bring more then 1 unit it could be a good way to avoid overwatch from armies.
Also, Alpha Legion would benefit as you get a -1 to hit outside of 12 inchs which means plasma that isn't close isn't OCing and Plasma that is close can be handled by infiltrating AL units.
Personally, I don't run WTs all that much when I do I bother with Deepstriking them since Warp Time puts them at 24" before they charge coupled with prescience and a few other spells they are more then able to do what I need them to do usually.
Locus of rage does affect warp talons, everything from the daemon codex does except for the stratagems.
Also the chance of making a 9 inch charge is 25% or 44% with rerolls, not 58%
Niiru wrote: Ok so I'm going to take things into a slightly different direction for a bit now, and hopefully get a big chunk of people responding to this -
NOT TALKING COMPETITIVELY
What units do you like the most, in a 'Fun to Play, Fun to Fluff' kind of mind set?
They -can- be competitive, but I'm more interested in the units that people play cos they're bags of fun, even if they're not actually 'points efficient'.
For me, its probably something like Dreadnoughts and Maulerfiends and Daemon Princes. Big scary hitters that charge forward into units (and then probably get killed by the retaliation of 100 conscripts hitting with rolled up newspapers).
I'm quoting my own post here, because I want new people to still read it an answer it as our fun/interesting post for the day (was tempted to put it in it's own thread on the general forum tbh, as too many people focus on competitive units instead of fun units on Dakka!).
But I also have an actual tactical question on Cultists. How are people fielding them?
I'm back and forth between Alpha Legion and Death Guard at the moment as my Legion Trait. For Death Guard, it would seem Autoguns and Stubbers are the best loadout, because of the 18" rapid fire range and not losing accuracy when moving. But what about for Alpha Legion units, whether backfield defenders or an infiltrated blob? Are autoguns still the better option, or is the pistols + extra attack in melee more useful? In which case I guess flamers instead of stubbers?
I like almost max Cultists from Alpha Legion, then after the infiltration Deep Strike Abigail and some Black Legion Obliterators. Perfect amount of screening and surprisingly cheap enough for your other toys.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I like almost max Cultists from Alpha Legion, then after the infiltration Deep Strike Abigail and some Black Legion Obliterators. Perfect amount of screening and surprisingly cheap enough for your other toys.
Yeh, for DG it would be like ... Three units of 10 cultists or something, but if I go Alpha it would be a single big unit of 30+. The question was, for Alpha, would it be better to go for Autoguns or Pistols + the extra attack in melee.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I like almost max Cultists from Alpha Legion, then after the infiltration Deep Strike Abigail and some Black Legion Obliterators. Perfect amount of screening and surprisingly cheap enough for your other toys.
mostly cultist spam lists works with Abby already on the table giving fearless+re roll to 120-160 cultists, waste ds him turn 2, some lists if they start 1st evaporate most of your screens in the meanwhile you wait Abby.
I'll second starting Abaddon on the table, no point in watching your cultist screen get eviscerated while he's not on the table. He moves 6" so why not footslog him.
As far as fun units that aren't competitive for me it has to be the helldrake such a cool model, just wish it's attacks weren't so blunt it's just really disappointing. Bit it still looks great and I'm reasonably happy wasting 190 points on it because it's fun to use...
I won't deny that luck played a part, but Warptiming a Heldrake and throwing all the buffs & stratagems on it did assassinate Njal Stormcaller for me in a friendly on T1
Abaddon303 wrote: What buffs and strats, I only ever put daemonforge on it? I really want my heldrake to be usable. Just not enough attacks to do significant damage.
the hellturkey ?
Basically you pay over 100 pts for a unit with a glorfied flamer or a hades autocannon that only hits on 5+.
Additionally it can't ignore armor up to and including 3+ anymore with the flamer. It also does not get the -1 to hit to my knowledge therefore it is also fragile.
Basically why not buy a dakkafiend?
If you really want to use it, you probalby need alot more CP for it then it is worth it, since technically you could use blasphemus machines aswell as daemonforge, both stratagems that could aid it, but then you might want to not take the flammer and instead use the hades autocannon.
If you take the Hadesautocannon might aswell stand still with it since it can do that and use it as an elevated gun platform, however i doubt that 163 pts are good spent in such a way. Or you throw down your gunline there and put aby close to it or any other CSM lord to further improve your shooting. Prescience is also an option however there are better targets mostlikely.
Of course you could do daemons shenanigans with it, especially khorne could have some nice effects for it but you need an herald with an relic.
Other then this i can't think of anyway you could make it viable.
It's such a shame. A couple of small tweaks would make it work much better. Maybe 2D6 on the flamer or -2 on the claws.
Actually I feel like it should punish troops more, so double the attacks but only 1D instead of D3 would help.
Abaddon303 wrote: It's such a shame. A couple of small tweaks would make it work much better. Maybe 2D6 on the flamer or -2 on the claws.
Actually I feel like it should punish troops more, so double the attacks but only 1D instead of D3 would help.
Not even that: 2d6 equals around 7 hits. Against infantry (take guardsmen as exemple) you will atleast roll one 1 to wound ergo 6 hits, now at -1 only another dude would survive, which leads to 5 dead.
5 dead guardsmen are 20 pts. (To just get the points back on troops and with potential moral casualites you'd need to kill of 5 squads of Guardsmen.
Even worse against spacemarines: Against those you only wound on 3+ (2/3rd of the time) again 7 hits: 5 wounds: 2.5 now get saved. so let's be nice and round up to 3 dead marines: 39 pts.
If anything the whole thing needs to get an inate ability to ignore negatives to hit from moving: and a doubling in the output of dakka of all weapons at that pricepoint.
I meant double the attacks with the claws on top of the 2D6 flamer. You'd have a decent chance of taking out an MSU of space marines then, but yeh you're right, it needs a complete overhaul really to make it competitive.
It's still a decent distraction to tie up a tank and help your rhinos cross the board unscathed but at almost 200pts it's an expensive sacrificial lamb...
In my experience, the only way ive made warp talons truly work is deepstriking an HQ near a unit of them, or two units if I really need it to pop off. Against gunline armies with heavy overwatch, warp talons are vital to my khorne army, and save my bacon on more than one occasion.
Can i use Fabius Bile ability on Cultist and use Tide of Traitors with them in the first turn, to infiltrate with "modified" cultists in the first turn?
I though i could but im not shure with the new FAQs.
Abaddon303 wrote: What buffs and strats, I only ever put daemonforge on it? I really want my heldrake to be usable. Just not enough attacks to do significant damage.
Pretty much everything.
The mission was Big Guns Never Tire, Hammer & Anvil, against a Spartan full of Wulfen & a Bastion full of Long Fangs with my own Daemon Engines / Slaanesh Vanguard army. Extremely dangerous matchup - most of the objectives were in her DZ, and I had to get my stompy stuff over there, running a 48” gauntlet to get there, forfeiting a VP every single time a Defiler or Maulerfiend died to her 12 Lascannons and 3 Krak Missiles. I deployed 49” away, but she got first turn, and Spartan edged forwards to kneecap my KoS.
So, I surged forwards, and in my psychic phase I spent a CP on a Familiar to switch Death Hex out for Diabolic Strength, having goaded my opponent into perceiving my Heldrake as an early disruptor but no T1 Assassin by not starting with a melee buff spell and deploying in like the opposite corner. I gave Drakey Diabolic Strength (essential, would have CRR’d) and Prescience (important, but would not have CRR’d) and Delightful Agonies (nice to have, to subsequently bullet sponge as a distraction Carnifex, but would not have CRR’d), then Warptime (essential, did CRR). With its movement of 30”, I had deployed so far away from Njal that it didn’t register as a T1 threat to be solidly screened against, and I could cast from outside of the coverage of Njal’s formidable DTW to ‘castle’ it into checkmate.
Then, it incinerated four Intercessors (the survivor ran away to morale). D2 has its advantages if 2W (or FNP) stuff is a thing in your meta (though I absolutely agree with the above comment that twice as many D1 shots would be far better). This cleared some of the space for its base if it charged Njal from like 8” away.
Then, it charged Njal, I think using a CRR to get there.
In the fight, it was hitting and wounding on 2’s but I used Daemonforge anyway as I needed to keep a CRR up my sleeve for damage rolls. Worth it - had to reroll a couple dice. After my opponent’s own CRR, she had failed two saves. After my own CRR on 2D3 damage, Njal was dead.
Won’t deny that luck was on my side (though when it crashlanded in her turn, Njal left with 1W would still have died), but that decapitated her own lynchpin who was not only providing strong DTW against my two Sorcerers but also an aura of cover & -1 to be hit (Oblits would not have appreciated that later on). It’s own death was fine - it meant one less turn of shooting at my Defilers, one of which later on got a touchdown against her Spartan. (With help from a cheeky Fiend of Slaanesh telling the Spartan it wasn’t allowed to fall back. Seriously, those things are hilarious.)
I don’t think I’d have won if I hadn’t assassinated Njal. My mid game buffs & late game Smites were instrumental in reaching & cracking those hard targets bristling with lascannons in a bad matchup for my army.
If your opponent’s key support character isn’t a 6W Terminator and their army isn’t a horde able to thoroughly deny landing sites, it’s a pretty viable sniper in friendlies.
Hmm yeh nice. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the gamble of getting off diabolic strength then warptime. It's all a bit of a punt to be honest but worth it in a friendly like you say just for the lolz.
I started testing my mega cultist spam list with ITC rules against a competitive Eldar soup list. Triple dissie ravagers, doom/jinx skyrunners, dark reapers, wave serpent, archon, 6 venoms, the works, etc. We only got a little bit into T2 before my opponent wanted to pause the game and put it on hold. I'm not sure he really wants to come back to this because I imagine the first turn was pretty demoralizing.
Initial thoughts:
200x cultists infiltrating into rapid fire range is a ridiculous amount of dakka.
120x Black Legion cultists are insane with full re-rolls and the ability to advance and shoot @ 24" Assault 1 + VOTLW.
Your opponent will nearly max out or max out Reaper on T1.
Weight of fire actually kills a lot of stuff. I managed to inflict 4 wounds on the wave serpent, kill 1 venom and the 5 kabalites inside, and nearly kill a 2nd venom had he not rolled a 6 on his last FNP roll. Also killed a squad of -2 to hit Alaitoc rangers. -1 to hit penalties and heavy armor literally don't matter when you're firing hundreds of shots. Some will always go through.
The most forward units should be a trio of Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh so you can maximize your buff spells and disincentivize your opponent from shooting the biggest threats.
With full doom, jinx, and guide, his whole army was only able to eliminate around 60 cultists on T1, roughly a squad and a half.
Conversely, I nearly wiped out 1/3 of his main anti-horde potential (2 out of 6 venoms) on T1.
He will be spending 3CP every turn to vect tide of traitors. Once he's out of CP, the Dark Reapers die.
All of the enemy heavy weapons are hilariously ineffective. This list invalidates a huge portion of the enemy list so you're really only fighting whatever percentage of their army is anti-horde.
Abaddon303 wrote: Hmm yeh nice. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the gamble of getting off diabolic strength then warptime. It's all a bit of a punt to be honest but worth it in a friendly like you say just for the lolz.
Yeah, it was a gamble. Had to try something extraordinary to run the gauntlet! I can see it being most useful in a TS Daemonkin list. Get a bunch of Sorcerers with free rerolls off a changecaster and stacked buffs become a lot more interesting.
120x Black Legion cultists are insane with full re-rolls and the ability to advance and shoot @ 24" Assault 2 + VOTLW.
Wait, you don't get the double shots with rapid fire if you're advancing do you?
Correct, if you advance your weapon changes from Rapid Fire 1 to Assault 1. So you only get the 1 shot, but that's 1 more shot then you would have had.
Ok that's cool, I thought I'd been playing it wrong! When I first read the rule I thought it was better than it actually is and was disappointed that you wouldn't be in a situation where advancing into rapid fire range would be worthwhile. In reality I very rarely use it, the -1 and single shot just isn't worth it generally...
How are people equipping their Lords and Sorcerers?
I'm thinking that Jump Pack + Blade of Hydra is the better combo for Alpha Legion (Jump Pack + Murder Sword for other legions maybe). Not sure whether to give him a Plasma Pistol or a combi-weapon though...
Jump Pack seems fine, as the Terminator Armour just makes him slow even though he has a 4++ either way.
Sorcerer could maybe be worthwhile in Terminator Armour as they don't have an invulnerable save as standard...
Steeds of Slaanesh are doing well for me. Charges after Advances, large footprint to shout at friendly units, +1W, +1A, situational synergy with Daemons. Only major limitation is unable to climb a ladder, but that can’t be covered by more conventional foot units
Automatically Appended Next Post: If your Sorcerer is in a situation where it wishes it has 2+/5++ then something’s going wrong with your battle plan. TDA is a ball and chain on such a unit, which wants to be picking targets to buff or hex or MW and avoiding beatsticks. If it needs to have an invuln, put it on a disc - though I prefer a Steed of Slaanesh for an extra wound to survive bad luck with the Warp.
I kind of like bikes for Sorcerers, for the extra wound and mobility. At least for one with Nurgle, as the Nurgle Mount (the Palanquin) is slow moving, if very tough.
It should be noted that Sorcerers on Discs are TZEENTCH DAEMON units, which means a Changecaster or such can give them an aura of reroll of failed casts. Particularly handy if you’re TSons.
Barnie25 wrote: How good is a Black Legion Spearhead Detachment with Abby, do people run them with Predators, Vindicators or are Forgefiends also something?
I am looking for fun ways to use the Abaddon model I have. I like the Forgefiend models the best but I don't know if its to expensive for what it does. The Predator en Vindicators bring Strategem bonuses.
Alternatively 3 squads of Obliterators might also work. The rest of my list is mostly DGDP's and Bloat Drones.
I run Abaddon with CSMs, Cultists, 3 Predators, Helbrutes and a Daemon Prince.
lindsay40k wrote: Steeds of Slaanesh are doing well for me. Charges after Advances, large footprint to shout at friendly units, +1W, +1A, situational synergy with Daemons. Only major limitation is unable to climb a ladder, but that can’t be covered by more conventional foot units
Automatically Appended Next Post: If your Sorcerer is in a situation where it wishes it has 2+/5++ then something’s going wrong with your battle plan. TDA is a ball and chain on such a unit, which wants to be picking targets to buff or hex or MW and avoiding beatsticks. If it needs to have an invuln, put it on a disc - though I prefer a Steed of Slaanesh for an extra wound to survive bad luck with the Warp.
Bikes and Steeds are all very good, but I'm hesitant to go to the time and effort of converting a Sorcerer or Lord on those kinds of transport options, when GW are clearly phasing them out. Sure they're legal for now by using the Index, but eventually the Indexes will be phased out in favour of the up to date codexes, and GW have made it clear that the Bikes/Daemon Mount options are not going to exist in the future.
You're right about not needing the slow termi saves though. I might stick to a jump pack. I'll look into the mount options, if I can figure out a cheap and easy conversion... The disk would probably be the easiest as I can just put my Sorcerer on a disk, but then I'm stuck as tzeentch on him (He'd be Alpha Legion, not TS, unless I have a TS detachment but I already have a Daemons detachment)
Just putting a link here for an army list I have drafted. I was going to write the whole thing here instead of making a new thread, but it ended up a longish post so I thought it would be tidier to put it elsewhere!
Thanks to anyone who takes a look and gives some pointers/opinions.
I really like that hellforged internus predator I think that's passed me by until now. Advance up with my rhinos and maulerfiends and make some toast. Dare the opponent to charge and eat overwatch and then when you drop a few rounds charge in and eat them...
lindsay40k wrote: It should be noted that Sorcerers on Discs are TZEENTCH DAEMON units, which means a Changecaster or such can give them an aura of reroll of failed casts. Particularly handy if you’re TSons.
I'm not sure that will work. Daemon Strategems cannot be used on non daemon faction units for a reason, namely to prevent non daemon units from benefiting from them. So if that's the purpose then they would not benefit from the aura.
lindsay40k wrote: It should be noted that Sorcerers on Discs are TZEENTCH DAEMON units, which means a Changecaster or such can give them an aura of reroll of failed casts. Particularly handy if you’re TSons.
I'm not sure that will work. Daemon Strategems cannot be used on non daemon faction units for a reason, namely to prevent non daemon units from benefiting from them. So if that's the purpose then they would not benefit from the aura.
Auras work because they still have the Daemon keyword.
Stratagems... I think were specifically singled out as not working, except for daemons from the codex:daemons?
The auras have to work though, cos otherwise there is zero synergy between Daemons and CSM and so would pretty much make them significantly weaker.
120x Black Legion cultists are insane with full re-rolls and the ability to advance and shoot @ 24" Assault 2 + VOTLW.
Wait, you don't get the double shots with rapid fire if you're advancing do you?
Correct, if you advance your weapon changes from Rapid Fire 1 to Assault 1. So you only get the 1 shot, but that's 1 more shot then you would have had.
Does anyone know of any CSM codex alternatives to 6x deep striking Tzeentch Flamers? They're 168 points, so not cheap, but being able to deep strike and put down (on average) 18-20 Hits on infantry/hordes seems pretty good.
~8 Berzerkers could be infiltrated and put down 48 attacks, but that's down to like 30 hits, and that's assuming you get first turn so they don't get killed first. Without first turn I'm not sure how much use they'd be in that situation...
I'd love it if Raptors had the ability to take the Flechette pistols that AdMech Infiltrators have (12", 5 shots), instead of the crummy bolt pistols which are just pointless.
Abaddon303 wrote: I really like that hellforged internus predator I think that's passed me by until now. Advance up with my rhinos and maulerfiends and make some toast. Dare the opponent to charge and eat overwatch and then when you drop a few rounds charge in and eat them...
I’ve got one. It’s not bad! Can be an interesting target for Warptime. Weird that it’s Elite, but an interesting option for filling out a Vanguard for a cheeky +1CP to go with some Noise Marines and Berzerkers. I had it park in front of a fortification that had waves of Genestealers inbound, a while back. That was fun
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: Does anyone know of any CSM codex alternatives to 6x deep striking Tzeentch Flamers? They're 168 points, so not cheap, but being able to deep strike and put down (on average) 18-20 Hits on infantry/hordes seems pretty good.
~8 Berzerkers could be infiltrated and put down 48 attacks, but that's down to like 30 hits, and that's assuming you get first turn so they don't get killed first. Without first turn I'm not sure how much use they'd be in that situation...
I'd love it if Raptors had the ability to take the Flechette pistols that AdMech Infiltrators have (12", 5 shots), instead of the crummy bolt pistols which are just pointless.
No, but Warptime makes Bikers with two flamers and a Combi-flamer are moderately comparable. 8 hits from the Combi-bolters, 10.5 hits from the flamers, and an extra hit from the champion’s second barrel. I think (it’s late) they’re 64 points cheaper, too.
The thing is, Flamers are far harder to kill than Bikers. They can still shoot after getting put into melee due to the fly keyword and the pistol profile, their flamers are 12" range, and they have an amazing invuln save for being Tzeentch. Honestly, flamers are pretty much the end all be all flame units...Who coulda thunk it?
Well, add two more bikers to make the unit cost about as much as the six Flamers, and it’s 6x2W T4 4++ vs 5x2W T5 3+. It’s also five more Bolter hits, which I guess will offset with the Flamers’ AP-1
I agree that the Flamers are probably better adapted to this role, with FLY and Pistol and more auto hits on overwatch, but they do also die twice as fast against bolters.
They have been discussed a fair bit in the Daemons tactica, and Horrrors were found to outperform them in pretty much any situation where longer range can be brought to bear and a compact unit footprint is not a major asset. In a Chaos soup list, they’re also competing against Noise Marines.
I do like them and I’ll be fielding my own from time time. They’re viable and certainly have a distinct niche as a compact mobile infantry hunter. (And a culexus assassin’s worst nightmare.) Though, outside of that niche, they’ll rarely outperform more conventional firepower.
Edit: also have an overlooked use in dealing with units with stacked -1 to hit (not uncommon example: Plaguebearer horde with Miasma). If they sort out Summoning in 9ed (keep an eye on Sigmar 2ed, some interesting stuff happening there), you can bet they’ll return to my Word Bearers’ sideboard (I haven’t summoned anything outside of narrative play for a year).
lindsay40k wrote: Well, add two more bikers to make the unit cost about as much as the six Flamers, and it’s 6x2W T4 4++ vs 5x2W T5 3+. It’s also five more Bolter hits, which I guess will offset with the Flamers’ AP-1
I agree that the Flamers are probably better adapted to this role, with FLY and Pistol and more auto hits on overwatch, but they do also die twice as fast against bolters.
They have been discussed a fair bit in the Daemons tactica, and Horrrors were found to outperform them in pretty much any situation where longer range can be brought to bear and a compact unit footprint is not a major asset. In a Chaos soup list, they’re also competing against Noise Marines.
I do like them and I’ll be fielding my own from time time. They’re viable and certainly have a distinct niche as a compact mobile infantry hunter. (And a culexus assassin’s worst nightmare.) Though, outside of that niche, they’ll rarely outperform more conventional firepower.
Edit: also have an overlooked use in dealing with units with stacked -1 to hit (not uncommon example: Plaguebearer horde with Miasma). If they sort out Summoning in 9ed (keep an eye on Sigmar 2ed, some interesting stuff happening there), you can bet they’ll return to my Word Bearers’ sideboard (I haven’t summoned anything outside of narrative play for a year).
Bikers are a possibility...
5 Bikers would be 143 points, would be pretty fast, but also very vulnerable to plasma. Cheaper than terminators at least. 5 combi-bolters plus 2 flamers in that unit would be pretty good. Might have to consider that one.
A big blob of 20 pink horrors is also an option for 140 points, but then that would require me painting 20 horrors. Would get me 40 shots, so around 20 hits, so about the same as the flamers.
Noise Marines would be an ideal swap out, but I can't deep strike those. They would have to either footslog, or be infiltrated (which is great if I get first turn, suicide otherwise). The deepstriking for flamers (or horrors I guess) is great because they are guaranteed to get at least one turn of full strength shooting without casualties.
Noise Marines would also only get... about 21 shots? So ~14 hits. They're unfortunately having to pay for their power armour I guess.
I may be looking at things wrong, but I don't see how noise marines can compete. Even the horrors are vastly outperforming them (it seems to me).
Horrors are probably the most points efficient, but Flamers seem to be quite close behind (especially when using deep strike for the big attack on a chosen target). They win for me because it means not having to paint another horde of models, however I could be persuaded if the arguement was strong enough.
Bikers... interesting suggestion. Would be another unit to benefit from alpha legion trait too. Could be worth a look...
Well 20 pink horror would be 60 shoots to be fair. 20 or more pinks in a unit change their assault weapon to 3 but once they drop to 19 it’s assault 2 again.
Then if you spend 80-100 more for a herald they get +1S and they have a power with +1 to wound (NOT S!!) so with this they will wound a Knight with 5+.
But if you’re going too spend points on pinks I would recommend to get 1 full unit or 2 and some points for splitting. And then of course a herald or two.
If you really want to focus on Tzeentch shooting you have a D-prince for reroll 1s. Warlordtrait “daemonspark” 9” away is reroll 1s to wound as well. But if you go that way you might go all in on daemons..
The power in Noise Marines is in taking a large unit and putting Stratagems on them. VotLW & Endless Cacophony, Prescience & a DP/CL aura. Maybe Delightful Agonies, if you’d rather get a second shooting phase than shoot when you die. It’s a lot to invest in, but the sheer firepower is something to be feared.
Real strength of noise marines is when infiltrated and they die can shoot at characters regardless of bubblewrap. The rules that allow this look debatable (to me) but this is how it was ruled at NOVA and other major ITC/US based tournaments (not sure what ETC does).
It offers an opportunity to kill company commanders who spam first rank/second rank or annoying eldar psykers - and adds an additional positional concern for opponent to worry about.
orkswubwub wrote: Real strength of noise marines is when infiltrated and they die can shoot at characters regardless of bubblewrap. The rules that allow this look debatable (to me) but this is how it was ruled at NOVA and other major ITC/US based tournaments (not sure what ETC does).
It offers an opportunity to kill company commanders who spam first rank/second rank or annoying eldar psykers - and adds an additional positional concern for opponent to worry about.
Targeting characters when they die will only work outside the shooting phase, its still a great strat if you lose some marines to smite and/or something in the movement phase like ravenwing bombers, also if they die in fight phase and have an exalted champ nearby they're potentially re-rolling all wounds and each can throw a grenade!
I love infiltrating at least a 15 man squad so your opponent has to deal with it, minimum if they die you're taking out some screens and possibly a weak character its a win/win unit albeit a little expensive
Yeah, if you expect your NMs to be wiped out and they contain a Blastmaster or two, think carefully about them when you remove casualties. Especially when you’ve got Prescience & CL/DP buffs active. If there's a moderately squishy support character in view, a sneaky snipe in a non-shooting phase can be brutal.
This all depends on RAW being as they are; you are not CURRENTLY constrained by the character rules when deadshooting outside of the shooting phase, and you are CURRENTLY allowed to deadshoot whilst your unit is within 1” of an enemy unit and use a non-pistol to shoot at a unit you’re not within 1” of.
I built a load of Terminators and Warp Talons when they could THEN deep strike on the first turn and then Warptime. There was even a magenta FAQ specifically allowing it. Now, they’re overpriced gimmicks left on the shelves. BUUUUUT Noise Marines are still great even if they lose ‘I’ve been stabbed so I get to fire a Sonic cannon like a sniper rifle’, so don’t be feart that they’ll become unviable if that loophole closes
I like simple. I have a tendency to build lists with a lot of moving parts. Sometimes an unsubtle wrecking ball does the trick. I suspect your opponents will tend to focus fire - including much of their anti-horde - on the DA Rhino.
At the very least, I’d give the second Exalted Champion a Power Axe with those spare points. May as well give him some bite in melee.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whoops, misread. Make that a Combi-Bolter. May as well
Tazberry wrote: Well 20 pink horror would be 60 shoots to be fair. 20 or more pinks in a unit change their assault weapon to 3 but once they drop to 19 it’s assault 2 again.
Then if you spend 80-100 more for a herald they get +1S and they have a power with +1 to wound (NOT S!!) so with this they will wound a Knight with 5+.
But if you’re going too spend points on pinks I would recommend to get 1 full unit or 2 and some points for splitting. And then of course a herald or two.
If you really want to focus on Tzeentch shooting you have a D-prince for reroll 1s. Warlordtrait “daemonspark” 9” away is reroll 1s to wound as well. But if you go that way you might go all in on daemons..
My Daemons detachment is small, basically because I want the Khorne Skullreaver Prince (I've already made a nice model for him too), and a battallion for CP purposes using as few models as possible (which is achieved by 9 Nurglings).
I could swap one unit of Nurglings for 1 unit of a different troops choice like Horrors, but it would be minimum size of 10. This army is not planned to be Horde-like at all.
I originally planned to have 30 Cultists in three squads of 10 (which was fine with me), but then realised that they would be infinitely more powerful in a single unit of 30, so that I could infiltrate/Cacophony/tide of traitors with them. Unfortunately this means I lose 5CP, unless I add 20 more cultists.
Currently trying to sort detachments to maybe get a vanguard/spearhead out of what I have, but that will (at best) only give me 1 or 2 CP instead of the 5.
All this is to say, I'm trying to break a balance between fun/good units, and having the CP to actually make the most of them. If I end up having to get 20 more Cultists, I -definitely- will not want to add 20/40/60 brimstones on top of that.
I could, of course, expand my Daemons by adding a second Battallion... but I like Alpha Legion. And if I was going to take a third detachment, it would probably be night Lords!
Plus my Flamers won't be Daemons, they're going to be conversion of dark mech flamer units. Wouldn't want to have loads of counts-as models to confuse the opponent!
The most effective tactic ive used with flamers is a unit of 9, with a Herald put behind them against a heavy infantry army (it was Orks specificially)
. With their already weak armor save, the flamers getting 5 strength from the herald and their wide footprint giving me a giant wall of overwatch, it more or less killed off half the unit of Boyz in the shooting phase, and then mulched another chunk in overwatch. By the time the Boyz got in, they were down to 4 models and they died in combat against the flamers + morale phase.
Weaver9,
What is your intention for the cultists? Purely as a screen for your leviathans? Seems like a waste of points since you are already meeting your troop quota?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be nice if you could break your leviathans out as a separate detachment for the extra 1CP and run as a more beneficial legion trait. Like -1 alpha legion? You could drop the cultists and go for a basic lord to reroll 1s on your leviathans? Unless you want to keep the screen
barboggo wrote: He will be spending 3CP every turn to vect tide of traitors. Once he's out of CP, the Dark Reapers die.
Do we actually know if having it Vect'd resets the "Once per game" errata on Tide of Traitors?
This totally came up while we were playing lol. We looked at the rules. For ToT it says it can only be "used" once per game, whereas with Vect it states that it prevents a stratagem from being "resolved". We decided to treat "used" and "resolved" as equivalent for the purposes of this game so that DE doesn't just get a way to permanently auto-nullify one of the best strats in the CSM codex for 3CP.
If anyone has an official GW statement on the issue I'd love to see it.
barboggo wrote: He will be spending 3CP every turn to vect tide of traitors. Once he's out of CP, the Dark Reapers die.
Do we actually know if having it Vect'd resets the "Once per game" errata on Tide of Traitors?
This totally came up while we were playing lol. We looked at the rules. For ToT it says it can only be "used" once per game, whereas with Vect it states that it prevents a stratagem from being "resolved". We decided to treat "used" and "resolved" as equivalent for the purposes of this game so that DE doesn't just get a way to permanently auto-nullify one of the best strats in the CSM codex for 3CP.
If anyone has an official GW statement on the issue I'd love to see it.
I would certainly play it this way. I mean... I guess you are still spending the 2CP for Tide, but they are then spending 3CP to nullify it.
If you are still 'spending' (As in losing) 2CP for the nullified stratagem, it would be unfair for that stratagem to also become locked out for the whole game. Means you lose resources AND lose one of your key stratagems.
I do hope GW don't do one of their trademarked knee-jerk FAQ's and rule it the other way. I would definitely say that you could keep attempting to use Tide until one of you runs out of CP.
Abaddon303 wrote: Weaver9,
What is your intention for the cultists? Purely as a screen for your leviathans? Seems like a waste of points since you are already meeting your troop quota?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be nice if you could break your leviathans out as a separate detachment for the extra 1CP and run as a more beneficial legion trait. Like -1 alpha legion? You could drop the cultists and go for a basic lord to reroll 1s on your leviathans? Unless you want to keep the screen
Ah yeah, I could do a spearhead no problem.
I'll see about alpha legion, but yeah, wanted a screening unit, as well as a unit to grab objectives. The bezerkers are going to be rushing to melee all game.
I want to screen the leviathans because when they are double butchered they are super weak against deepstriking or infiltrating melee units. Need a coushin to get in a round of shooting.
With the way Vect works, I'd be ok with losing my ability to ToT if they rolled a 6 on their Vect roll.
With Agents of Vect, on a 1 Vect fails and the DE player loses his 3CP for nothing. On a 2-5 Vect works as usual and nullifies the enemy stratagem but the opponent also doesn't lose any CP for attempting to use the strat. On a 6 Vect nullifies the enemy stratagem but DOESN'T refund the opponent's CP, implying that the CP still gets spent by the opponent but the effect of the strat doesn't play out. Counting that as "used" for the purposes of ToT seems a bit fluffier to me and possibly RAI so I'd be ok with it.
barboggo wrote: With the way Vect works, I'd be ok with losing my ability to ToT if they rolled a 6 on their Vect roll.
With Agents of Vect, on a 1 Vect fails and the DE player loses his 3CP for nothing. On a 2-5 Vect works as usual and nullifies the enemy stratagem but the opponent also doesn't lose any CP for attempting to use the strat. On a 6 Vect nullifies the enemy stratagem but DOESN'T refund the opponent's CP, implying that the CP still gets spent by the opponent but the effect of the strat doesn't play out. Counting that as "used" for the purposes of ToT seems a bit fluffier to me and possibly RAI so I'd be ok with it.
Hmmmmm well it would suck (for me), but then it relies on rolling a 6, and the 2-5 results give me back my CP.
I'd be happy with the 6 meaning Tide gets counted as used.
I mean, I'd be angry and upset, but I wouldn't feel cheated by my opponent, just by the winds of fate.
Land raider - I'm committed to using one in 1 week 2k pt list. Tips on keeping it moving and shooting? I'm marking it Nurgle for miasma. Also running 3 brutes alongside it.
Please no disparaging trolling on the non-competitive vehicles. It's a casual tourney with a penalized PL cap and no FW.
The Mathhammer came out roughly as you would expect.
The Version with the Changecaster did 1 more wound (7 wounds vs 6 wounds) against MEQs.
The version with more Flamers produced one extra wound against GEQs (13.5 vs 12.3).
The changecaster version was twice as good against Knights... but still terrible, and wouldn't use against knights anyway.
So the changecaster version is slightly stronger against marines, slightly weaker against guards and t-shirt saves. But... it also seems to end up more fragile as there are less models in the unit, and the Changecaster is pretty useless once the unit dies off. (I guess it can throw a smite before it dies, it's useless in combat).
So is there actually much point in the Changecaster unit in this case? I guess it's better if I had multiple blobs of flames and brimstones in a big bubble, but in the case of this deepstrike anti-infantry unit?
I'm thinking I'd be better off with the 6-8 flamers in one unit. Also means only costs 1CP to deepstrike it, instead of another CP for the changecaster.
HOWEVER something to keep in mind is I still -need- a second HQ for that daemon detachment...
Dactylartha wrote: Land raider - I'm committed to using one in 1 week 2k pt list. Tips on keeping it moving and shooting? I'm marking it Nurgle for miasma. Also running 3 brutes alongside it.
Please no disparaging trolling on the non-competitive vehicles. It's a casual tourney with a penalized PL cap and no FW.
There really isn't anything you can do. All it takes is any one model to charge it, and suddenly your 300 point model can't shoot. No amount of screening will be cost efficient because of its cost too.
Dactylartha wrote: Land raider - I'm committed to using one in 1 week 2k pt list. Tips on keeping it moving and shooting? I'm marking it Nurgle for miasma. Also running 3 brutes alongside it.
Please no disparaging trolling on the non-competitive vehicles. It's a casual tourney with a penalized PL cap and no FW.
There really isn't anything you can do. All it takes is any one model to charge it, and suddenly your 300 point model can't shoot. No amount of screening will be cost efficient because of its cost too.
Just use...something else.
While this is technically true, it's a pretty narrow minded view. He is right about the land raider being able to be shut down by being charged though. It needs the steel behemoth rule really.
In the spirit of the question, I'd suggest that the best thing you can do it try and avoid being charged.
So don't drive your tank too near blobs of cheap infantry. Keep them at arms length. Have your raider filled with something that would murder any nearby blobs, such as berserkers.
Keep deep strikers from dropping in and charging you. Screening would be important. Your helbrutes would help with that though, have them in formation around the raider and they'll keep deep strikers 18+ inches away.
I think this is about the best you can do. Though if you have a decent screen up, and you don't drive too close to enemy infantry, and blast away at range until you unload your troops into the enemy... I think it'll do OK.
Though two rhinos can do the same result for less points, which is kinda the problem with land raiders. You do get some strong weaponry though so pick your targets.
Should be fun. Personally I've wanted to play a spartan assault tank. It's what the land raider should be.
Thanks for both replies. The dedicated screen of brutes is a good reminder (i get excited too often and rush them in). The raider will be carrying berzerkers alongside a rhino of CSM. DP, 2 sorcerers, drake, cultists is the rest of the list. Super simple. The meta here is armor and AP, not hordes. It'll be my first time using the raider outside my living room lol.
Dakka really needs to add the ability to search a specific thread. The search tool only being able to narrow do to a particular forum is not very helpful.
I say this because i'm sure this question has been asked before in this thread, but there's no way to know unless I read through every page. And aint nobody got time fo' that.
Anyway -
Daemonic Locus seems to require a whole detachment being mono-god. Much like stratagems requiring whole detachments being from the same faction. Fine, makes sense.
But stratagems specifically say that the Auxillary detachments don't qualify for unlocking stratagems. Daemonic locus doesn't mention this.
So... does that mean I can spend 1CP on an Aux detachment with a Khorne Herald in it, which then gives that herald the locus of rage?
Asking because, despite them not being very good, I really want a flying bodyguard for my Princes, and so it will either be Raptors or Talons.
Raptors with the Icon can get their charge up to 50%, but they're still terrible in melee anyway so they're better off (at least I think this is true) with 3 plasma guns and dropping in to rapid fire some elite infantry with a Lord.
Warp Talons need the Locus of Rage to get the charge reroll, and they also get +1 strength out of it, so not... as terrible as they are without it.
Alternative is to forget deepstriking, and just have the Talons start on the table with the prince and go for a big leap towards the enemy.
Yes they get the Locus you just can't use strats from the codex if that's your only CD detachment
Agree on talon handicap not being able to take an icon. Had some random fun with them near a Tzeentch DP for that locus but they need that Khorne reroll.
Dactylartha wrote: Yes they get the Locus you just can't use strats from the codex if that's your only CD detachment
Agree on talon handicap not being able to take an icon. Had some random fun with them near a Tzeentch DP for that locus but they need that Khorne reroll.
Seriously tempted to just run them on the table. Ignore their deepstrike ability (or maybe infiltrate them with Alpha legion to get them in a good location), and then have them grab some buffs from a Prince and Herald. I think they'd make an ok distraction carnifex and bodyguard unit. Though I still think lightning claws are overcosted. If a pair of claws gave D3 extra attacks then they'd be more in the right ball park.
I find they're just as squishy as raptors and tac marines unless you can trap a model from falling back.
Raptors disappoint me so much, but talons less so. I want to love them but they're too imprecise. I joined 40k at the end of 7th and had more raptors break their ankles on terrain than get killed by enemy. Now, they die as soon as they enter unless I can gimmick them to stay in melee, away from dreadnoughts and slam captains, for more than a turn.
I also had a heldrake eat up 4 of my talons in one counterattack once, that's a fun memory.
Dactylartha wrote: I find they're just as squishy as raptors and tac marines unless you can trap a model from falling back.
Raptors disappoint me so much, but talons less so. I want to love them but they're too imprecise. I joined 40k at the end of 7th and had more raptors break their ankles on terrain than get killed by enemy. Now, they die as soon as they enter unless I can gimmick them to stay in melee, away from dreadnoughts and slam captains, for more than a turn.
I also had a heldrake eat up 4 of my talons in one counterattack once, that's a fun memory.
I'm not sure if you're saying Raptors or Talons are worse, as you seem to go back and forth between them...
I just did some mathhammer though, and it turns out that a 5-man Plasma Raptor squad will out-damage a 5-man Warp Talon squad against all enemy types... And the Raptors can do most of their damage without risking getting into melee combat.
The only way Talons will outperform the Raptors, is if the Talons get into melee with their full unit, and the Raptors only shoot from 24" away (and so can't rapid-fire). Even then, the Talons are only slightly better, and the Raptors get their -1 from Alpha Legion.
Talons are better if you get them into melee with +1S and reroll 1's to hit, and the Raptors are -only- shooting plasma guns and not charging too. But it's not much.
The Raptors squad even costs the same (135). I really hope the new Chapter Approved this year does something good for both units.
Phone posting with toddler in the other arm. Sorry.
I don't use raptors well. Plas pistol and meltas. And I instinctively charge them in to fight to protect them, but they fail charges or kill models in charge range or just get killed when their target falls back on his turn.
Warp talons do much more for me but I still haven't found out how to make them work well. They are best, to me, for tagging through overwatch and trapping models.
I'm sure I'd do better with 3 plas raptors but atm i modeled them with box bits and i make a lot of noob mistakes. They don't fill a niche for me.
Part of the issue is that CSM units aren't treated like the Vets they should be. That's why I'm for removing the base Chaos Space Marine squad and replacing them with 15 point Chosen as the basic choice, and then we start off from there.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Part of the issue is that CSM units aren't treated like the Vets they should be. That's why I'm for removing the base Chaos Space Marine squad and replacing them with 15 point Chosen as the basic choice, and then we start off from there.
^This. Been saying the same for years. The dark vengence chosen models should be the styling of the base standard marines moving forward.
We also need marks for that unit (this unit alone gets this choice)
Nurgle: +1 Toughness
Khorne: +1 Strength and +1 Attack when charging
Slaanesh: Always Fight First
Tzeentch: +1 Invul (Max 3++) or a 5+ if none.
Undivided: Only ever lose 1 model to failed morale test
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Part of the issue is that CSM units aren't treated like the Vets they should be. That's why I'm for removing the base Chaos Space Marine squad and replacing them with 15 point Chosen as the basic choice, and then we start off from there.
^This. Been saying the same for years. The dark vengence chosen models should be the styling of the base standard marines moving forward.
We also need marks for that unit (this unit alone gets this choice)
Nurgle: +1 Toughness
Khorne: +1 Strength and +1 Attack when charging
Slaanesh: Always Fight First
Tzeentch: +1 Invul (Max 3++) or a 5+ if none.
Undivided: Only ever lose 1 model to failed morale test
Marks doing anything rules-wise is a lost cause, BUT that's why I'm for separation of Emperors Children and World Eaters (which has been hinted at). Marks are fine to just be keywords for the Legions not entirely dedicated to one Chaos God. I'm wanting a rework on the Cult Marines too though so...
Dactylartha wrote: Land raider - I'm committed to using one in 1 week 2k pt list. Tips on keeping it moving and shooting? I'm marking it Nurgle for miasma. Also running 3 brutes alongside it.
Please no disparaging trolling on the non-competitive vehicles. It's a casual tourney with a penalized PL cap and no FW.
While a land raider is never ever efficient. If you are committed to run one, I might suggest trying out world eaters and running a lord of skulls and running Kharn beside the land raider. So Kharn is protected on each side by a big vehicle, and he gives reroll to hit to both the Lord of skulls and the Land raider. And the combined shooting from a LOS and a LR is not a small thing. Then, at the same time, you can stuff the Land Raider with full of scary berserkers. World eaters berserkers are really really scary in close combat.
Its a lot of points though. In any case, the LOS can serve as a huge distraction so that they might not focus on your land raider so much. Its still not the most efficient in terms of points, but there are some synergies to this. If you are pressed for points, I suppose running a simple lord over Kharn is another way. But if you are running a LR anyway, might as well use its transport capability for something. You can do this cheaper by running a renegade knight instead of a LOS but less synergy.
Thanks. I know it's not efficient or top tier, and I'm taking a score penalty to bring it, but i want to. I lose nothing for losing and honestly the opponents here don't really play melee armies. Also I'm limited by my inventory - I don't have a LoW or Kharn or oblits (yet) and I'm bringing 3 psykers, and the tourney series only allows battalion, patrol, and auxiliary support detachments with no FW. It's a pretty narrow scope so I'm seeing how the raider does against other armor. With it and one of the dreads I'll have 6 lascannons which is a lot for me.
AL trait helps my brutes out a tonne for staying alive, I'm hoping miasma helps my raider avoid a handful of the shots coming at it. I really appreciate the guy reminding me to focus on using them as a mobile screen for the raider.
And for some hilarious reason they always think my helldrake is some scary fire raptor i just don't get it.
Going by raw stats yes raptors can out damage...But the ability to have a 5++ invuln, benefit from daemon loci and auras, and ignore overwatch is a LOT of non-direct buffs. Heck, use Talons against the right army (tau, IG, etc.) And watch your opponent weep as you totally ignore their overwatch.
vaklor4 wrote: Going by raw stats yes raptors can out damage...But the ability to have a 5++ invuln, benefit from daemon loci and auras, and ignore overwatch is a LOT of non-direct buffs. Heck, use Talons against the right army (tau, IG, etc.) And watch your opponent weep as you totally ignore their overwatch.
Unfortunately you only 'totally ignore' their overwatch on the turn you deepstrike in. And on that turn you'll only make your charge 1 game in every 4.
So for 3 games out of 4, watch as your Talons run towards the enemy, stop in the middle of nowhere, and get blasted off the board by rapid fire lasguns lol.
It’s worth checking our sums on this. The option for Warp Talons to gain reroll charges off Karanak or such should be incorporated into things. After all, it *is* an *excellent* gimmick *when it works*. (I’d welcome anyone picking errors in this, it’d not be my first time calculating wrong in this thread )
Just dropping and charging has a 10/36 = 27.78% chance of success.
Charging and rerolling a failed charge has a 10/36 + (26/36 x 10/36) = 47.84% chance of success.
Charging and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, where it could produce a total with the higher roll that makes it successful, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (5/36 x 1/6) = 52.31% chance of success (assuming you spend a CP on the longer shots, like trying to turn 3-3 into 3-6).
Charging, and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, unless you’ve got a better chance of success by re-rolling both dice and doing that instead, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (9/36 x 10/36) = 56.94% chance of success.
Doing that with two units = 81.46% chance of success (assuming you can use a CRR on each of them like in narrative games, in real terms you’ll have situations where the first unit CRRs a 6-1 and then the second unit can’t CRR a 6-2 and the full charge reroll comes up as a fail).
So. That’s about an eighty percent chance of two units of Warp Talons making a charge, and shutting down the overwatch of some Aggressors, or an Acid Spray T-fex, or a flame Knight, or a Spartan carrying precious cargo.
It’s still prohibitively expensive for a general just-in-case trap card. Buuuuut if you’re in a huge game where this Stone is likely to find at least one Scissors, or you’re in an event where you can bring a sideboard, or you know the list you’re likely to face has got Scissors, that’s not *terrible* odds. I mean, it’s better than your own charger getting crippled by overwatch, right?
Also, if you can land the unit on an elevated position, or in a position to declare a charge on such a position with space for some of them to fit up there, then “place the models over 9” away” in the movement phase can equal a guaranteed head stomp or dragon punch in the charge phase, as the big FAQ specifically says that units with FLY measure the diagonal distance when checking if they’re allowed to declare a charge but all vertical movement in the execution of the charge is free. Night Lords, take note, and get some Batman takedowns in the bag
lindsay40k wrote: It’s worth checking our sums on this. The option for Warp Talons to gain reroll charges off Karanak or such should be incorporated into things. After all, it *is* an *excellent* gimmick *when it works*. (I’d welcome anyone picking errors in this, it’d not be my first time calculating wrong in this thread )
Just dropping and charging has a 10/36 = 27.78% chance of success.
Charging and rerolling a failed charge has a 10/36 + (26/36 x 10/36) = 47.84% chance of success.
Charging and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, where it could produce a total with the higher roll that makes it successful, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (5/36 x 1/6) = 52.31% chance of success (assuming you spend a CP on the longer shots, like trying to turn 3-3 into 3-6).
Charging, and using a command re-roll on the lower roll, unless you’ve got a better chance of success by re-rolling both dice and doing that instead, has a (10/36) + (4/36 x 2/3) + (6/36 x 1/2) + (7/36 x 1/3) + (9/36 x 10/36) = 56.94% chance of success.
Doing that with two units = 81.46% chance of success (assuming you can use a CRR on each of them like in narrative games, in real terms you’ll have situations where the first unit CRRs a 6-1 and then the second unit can’t CRR a 6-2 and the full charge reroll comes up as a fail).
So. That’s about an eighty percent chance of two units of Warp Talons making a charge, and shutting down the overwatch of some Aggressors, or an Acid Spray T-fex, or a flame Knight, or a Spartan carrying precious cargo.
It’s still prohibitively expensive for a general just-in-case trap card. Buuuuut if you’re in a huge game where this Stone is likely to find at least one Scissors, or you’re in an event where you can bring a sideboard, or you know the list you’re likely to face has got Scissors, that’s not *terrible* odds. I mean, it’s better than your own charger getting crippled by overwatch, right?
Also, if you can land the unit on an elevated position, or in a position to declare a charge on such a position with space for some of them to fit up there, then “place the models over 9” away” in the movement phase can equal a guaranteed head stomp or dragon punch in the charge phase, as the big FAQ specifically says that units with FLY measure the diagonal distance when checking if they’re allowed to declare a charge but all vertical movement in the execution of the charge is free. Night Lords, take note, and get some Batman takedowns in the bag
I do like the thinking. Though I notice that the difference between the Khorne daemon reroll, and the command reroll, is very minor. Which means that you would have to know that the Khorne detachment was worth it's massive points cost, for it to be worth taking over just having a spare CP.
For example, I do have a definite Khorne HQ, maybe 2, in my list. However, the rest of the detachment is Nurglings and Flamers. Meaning no Locus. I'd have to take another Khorne HQ in an AUX detachment, in order to get a locus on that one HQ. Which is doable, but I'd then pretty much need to have at least 2 units of Talons to make the investment worthwhile, at which point I've spend ~350 points on this little bomb. Of which, if only one unit makes it into combat, that's... 10 S4 AP-2 attacks.
Tricky balance.
On another note, which may get lost in this big wall of text, but I'm looking for some ideas for models which could be turned into assassin/stealth style of models. Going to have some sneaky sneaks in my alpha legion list. True, we have no actual rules for assassins (and basically only the Jump Pack Lord is capable of it), but I can still make them look cool.
Thing about the Khorne Daemon Detachment Bonus Locus is that it scales - you can take a couple of WT units and have them (and maybe something else, like a Daemon engine or two) all benefit from the rerolls.
As for stealthy creepers... hmm. Kitbashed Sniper scouts? Tempestus Scions?
lindsay40k wrote: Thing about the Khorne Daemon Detachment Bonus Locus is that it scales - you can take a couple of WT units and have them (and maybe something else, like a Daemon engine or two) all benefit from the rerolls.
As for stealthy creepers... hmm. Kitbashed Sniper scouts? Tempestus Scions?
For cultist sized models it's easy enough. Even for raptors/talons (depending on which I end up choosing) it's not so hard.
I need a lord and a daemon-prince sized model though, which is a little trickier!
Makes me think is it worth taking a spare empty rhino alongside your rhino full of berserkers etc as a distraction and run that into your overwatching menace. Probably more chance of pulling that off than warp talons and although it doesn't ignore overwatch it can probably tank most overwatch you'd come up against no?
Incidentally, what's probably the worst overwatch you can come up against? Deathwatch frag cannons? How many can one unit carry?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is there a unit that can consistently remove a full health rhino on overwatch?
Abaddon303 wrote: Makes me think is it worth taking a spare empty rhino
Bingo. If there is at least one thing Rhinos can do this edition it's take Overwatch if you're that chicken. I personally just take my chance but other people don't like doing that. Move two or three up as a wall and launch the Smoke. Then move again and charge as necessary.
Abaddon303 wrote: Makes me think is it worth taking a spare empty rhino alongside your rhino full of berserkers etc as a distraction and run that into your overwatching menace. Probably more chance of pulling that off than warp talons and although it doesn't ignore overwatch it can probably tank most overwatch you'd come up against no?
Incidentally, what's probably the worst overwatch you can come up against? Deathwatch frag cannons? How many can one unit carry?
An Azrael gunline can put out some horrific overwatch with all the rerolling hits on Hellblasters, but the really scary overwatch comes from Tau, particularly if they are T'au sept (hitting on 5's with a feth-ton of shots). Dominus Knights are daunting prospects for charging, too.
Is there a unit that can consistently remove a full health rhino on overwatch?
A Knight Castellan might, if it gets a hit or two with the Volcano lance.
Speaking of big units, Khorne Lord of Skulls, anyone have any experience? It's melee profile seems actually solid, and in a world of primarchs I'm hoping to get something big of my own (while remaining khorne).
weaver9 wrote: Speaking of big units, Khorne Lord of Skulls, anyone have any experience? It's melee profile seems actually solid, and in a world of primarchs I'm hoping to get something big of my own (while remaining khorne).
Kytan Ravager and Brass Scorpion are both Khorne Daemons. Worth a look.
I know it's something that's pretty much only an idea for the Imperium (due to their over-abundance of character options), but I have been hit by an idea I'd be curious about looking into...
Is it possible to run a character-heavy (or even character-only) CSM/Daemons army list?
Imperials can do it because of Assassins and Inquisitors and their normal HQ options all giving a lot of options for anti-horde and anti-tank. CSM and Daemons... well anti-tank is easy, anti-horde might be a lot harder.
aemons are two obvious options for adding some variety to a list though.
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