blackmage wrote: what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.
Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.
As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.
For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.
I guess I see it from the flip side; I faced 2 of the AC Armigers, and against PBC's (the main target in the matchup here) it showed where the AC Armigers shortfall... this was facing AdMech with the reroll 1's house trait.
Over the course of 3 turns, they did 3 wounds to a demon prince and 6 wounds to a PBC before both biting it. AP -1 hurts them, but not only that, T8+ targets are rough for them, especially with FNP (my saves weren't even that hot....) I guess we will see how it pans out.
I find a pair or even 3 Armigers to be tempting in a DE heavy meta for the following reasons
- Perfect guns for shooting DE vehicles, huge range allowing you to out-range ravagers
- Move and shoot at full capacity, allowing you to hide behind LOS blockers turn 1 to stay safe from alpha strike
- Long range shooting threat that can be present around turn 1, mitigating the significant deep strike limitation of obliterators
- Relatively point-efficient
- Actually not half bad when shooting at Riptides and Necron vehicles, which is a great boon since Chaos in general is already well equipped to fight imperium
blackmage wrote: what you guys think would be the best loadout for armigers knights, if you decide tiìo field them with a double gatling renegade IK? cannons gives you some extra reach and firepower, but a full melta amiger deal better with veichles, just that d3 shots aren't so appealing to me.
Personally I dislike the renegade knights due to lack of synergy or support; no way for rerolls, so its all luck (mostly), no good wargear options or traits, essentially your taking them for some high firepower that may or may not do anything. Even the Armigers (because I've faced them) are pretty underwhelming without some of the house traits. I just feel like its a hype thing right now. if they had marks, or better keywords, or could even get certain legion traits that would definitely change stuff; but as is, they're just as expensive as the IK variants without all the bells and whistles.
As it stands, Chaos probably is one of the better faction with destroying knights.
For the most part I agree, however there is three knight options I see as passable. Fist and sword with no carapace is a massive distraction piece who hits like a truck with the +1 A and WS, twin gatling cannon with rerolling hits is pretty nutty, and the autocannon armiger is just...Real real good for its point value. But otherwise yeah, Renegades arent gonna be the list to beat. It more over is just great that chaos just suddenly got a LOT of new tools.
but im not going to play a pure renegade list, just a superheavy detach with nurgle demon battalion+Ts supreme command, i just would like to switch my Dg outrider (3 drones+Dp) with double gatling Ik+armiger+armiger, im thinking about double cannon im not attracted by a model with ab 3+ and a weapon with d3 shots, im looking to improve match up against armies like De.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I think there's merit behind the Autocannon Armigers. Predators are limited in Rule of Three and, if that stays, Armigers are an excellent substitute.
and armigers have +1 wound tsi 5++ move 14" no penalty to fire heavy weapons and moving and cost less, can deal some damage in CaC, not comparable. In any case rule of 3 will remain is not a beta, they wont delete it, 100% sure.
If only the Armigers could get a reroll from the Lord or Captain huh?
I think if you want to use shooty Amigers, then the key thing is to not use them to shoot T8 targets. (Hard against an all knight army, but there should be other types of targets in any other sort of army). Like actually, Shooty Amigers should be fine against a DP because at least its a 3+ to wound rather than 5+.
Defilers are very interesting. I loved Defilers. But I didn't see many being used in any sort of lists at all. Maybe now with knight lists in the meta, we will see Defilers used more often. One thing about Defilers, they take up a heavy support slot, but they are definitely NOT the equivalent of other heavy support slots in terms of shooty firepower.
If we want to bring say two defilers, we will need to make sure we have other stuff which can shoot down big targets. After all, those two Defilers aren't going to be able to walk up and take down a Castellan or a Shadowsword on turn 1. (If they can, the opponent is playing his army wrong).
Maybe a list with two Defilers and a renegade Castellan...
i dont bring armigers to deal with Ik's, they help a lot against De for example, wounding their veichles at 3+ and delivering 3 wounds for each failed save, couple of failed save and ravagers start hitting at 4+, and that can be achieved by a single armiger.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think if you want to use shooty Amigers, then the key thing is to not use them to shoot T8 targets. (Hard against an all knight army, but there should be other types of targets in any other sort of army). Like actually, Shooty Amigers should be fine against a DP because at least its a 3+ to wound rather than 5+.
Defilers are very interesting. I loved Defilers. But I didn't see many being used in any sort of lists at all. Maybe now with knight lists in the meta, we will see Defilers used more often. One thing about Defilers, they take up a heavy support slot, but they are definitely NOT the equivalent of other heavy support slots in terms of shooty firepower.
If we want to bring say two defilers, we will need to make sure we have other stuff which can shoot down big targets. After all, those two Defilers aren't going to be able to walk up and take down a Castellan or a Shadowsword on turn 1. (If they can, the opponent is playing his army wrong).
Maybe a list with two Defilers and a renegade Castellan...
Bingo. Armigers can work well in a low toughness meta, so it really depends on what you see.
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blackmage wrote: i dont bring armigers to deal with Ik's, they help a lot against De for example, wounding their veichles at 3+ and delivering 3 wounds for each failed save, couple of failed save and ravagers start hitting at 4+, and that can be achieved by a single armiger.
Don't forget that DE has access to - hit shenanigans, especially if its a Ynnari/DE, or Eldar/DE force. Altaioc especially.
I look forward to seeing how Armigers do, but I'm sticking on the PBC train; yes, they are low range, but extremely durable and don't suffer from hit penalties (plus, I wanna run my Trees more)
Well they do have the 2 CP re-roll stratagem, but that is the extent of synergy available to Armigers for dealing with this. And since re-rolls happen before modifiers it is slightly less effective at 2 CP compared to what Daemon Engines can do with Daemon Forge. But if you don't have a big Knight, you might as well use it for the Auto Cannon Armiger to land a few more hits on target if you really have to shoot at the -2 target.
So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?
CountEjacula138 wrote: So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?
I put combi-bolters on mine, and just have counts-as plasma, there is literally no point in the amount of effort it would take to make a combi-plasma squad of termies.
And for melee options, I generally go either axe or fist. Fist for the most anti-tank, and axe if im just dropping them as super elite units.
But in general, Terminators are pretty strictly garagehammer tier. Bad against a LOT of things, and really expensive to field.
I do really hate that I bought some RIGHT before they took Turn 1 Deepstrike away. Still I'm trying to make them slightly viable since I play IW and they're fond of their termies.
I suspect Terminators might be mainly of use in games on large tables. Something where a flyer or similar can jump onto a neutral objective T1 and then you can teleport onto it T2. Units with staying power, teleporting into a ruin or suchlike, with some firepower to project and some melee teeth to bare at ground forces trying to dislodge them.
Riding in a Land Raider is looking a bit more attractive. Could Warptime it in your opponent's face, cast an endurance spell on it, and then jump out and start punching corpse-botherers.
CountEjacula138 wrote: So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?
At this point I'm on board with terminators strictly for the fact that I like the models. Expectedly, they've never performed well for me, not for their price tag at least. I'm strongly considering purchasing a bunch of lightning claws and throwing them on my World Eater's Terminators - double claws on each. I'd likely have them riding in my land raider, ready to pop out when things get to close or the opportunity is right. I'd be looking at 4 attacks with each model, rerolling failed wounds.. not too shabby on paper.
10 World Eaters terminators. 2 units of 5. Champions modeled with chainfists, combi-bolters, and an Icon of Wrath. The other 4 modeled with combi-bolters and power axes. I haven't finished them yet, but will probably either count their guns as combi-plasma or just run 'em as bolters. Also purely for love of the models. The FW upgrade kits are so cool.
CountEjacula138 wrote: So what's everyone doing with their Termies these days now that turn 1 deep strike is out. I just built 10 and as you know making a bunch of combiplas WYSIWYG is near impossible so how are you building your 10 or 5 man squads? ...or are they just in the trash/on the shelf until next edition?
Competitively, Termies are poop on a stick. They cost too many points and are far more fragile than their 2+/5++ 2W statline would suggest.
Now, for casual play, they are certainly cool. I've got a unit of DG Blightlords that I converted to have 4 Combi-plasmas and a flail, and in addition to being awesome models they were super fun to play with. And DG terminators are probably the best Terminators in the whole game thanks to T5 and Disgustingly Resilient, but they are still overcosted for what they do.
In casual games i like to use Powermaul Terminators (in a Renegade Chapter). While overcosted, they're definitely fun against anything T3. Dropping them last minute, after the opponent used Tide of Traitors or is defending an objective with some units far away from the battle, these guys drop their hammers & wound on 2+. Expensive - too expensive in fact - but still very fun.
I suspect my Terminators are mostly going to be used for Prospero
They’re Word Bearers in Indomitus pattern, and they’ve got combi-plasmas that aren’t WYSIWYG, but they’re easy enough to narrative in the crate of board games I take to various socials
Hmm. Dual Lightning Claws any good? Loyalists sometimes use them, but they play second fiddle to the THSS guys, and they don’t have the opportunity cost of a combi-weapon...
What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....
To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)
I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...
Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.
What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)
No of course not that would be silly. But the Knight would have to attack it and wait until its fight phase. If there are 2 fiends on it from separate units it could only fight one. Or a friend and a contemptor, it'd have to choose. Am I being too unrealistic to think a single fiend could make it base to base with a knight, with other things as well?
No of course not that would be silly. But the Knight would have to attack it and wait until its fight phase. If there are 2 fiends on it from separate units it could only fight one. Or a friend and a contemptor, it'd have to choose. Am I being too unrealistic to think a single fiend could make it base to base with a knight, with other things as well?
You can split attacks quite easily as long as they are declared prior to rolling. Knight would kill both quite easily. The problem I think is that maybe you are forgetting that the knight attacks the fiend after it swings during your fight phase. Also the overwatch will be brutal (like charging the conflag cannon...), and then you get to swing (do not damage with the fiends) and eat an entire set of attacks from the knight.
No of course not that would be silly. But the Knight would have to attack it and wait until its fight phase. If there are 2 fiends on it from separate units it could only fight one. Or a friend and a contemptor, it'd have to choose. Am I being too unrealistic to think a single fiend could make it base to base with a knight, with other things as well?
You can split attacks quite easily as long as they are declared prior to rolling. Knight would kill both quite easily. The problem I think is that maybe you are forgetting that the knight attacks the fiend after it swings during your fight phase. Also the overwatch will be brutal (like charging the conflag cannon...), and then you get to swing (do not damage with the fiends) and eat an entire set of attacks from the knight.
Warp Talons against the conflag cannon would do wonders.
orkswubwub wrote: What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....
To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)
I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...
Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.
What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)
Well, we could bring our own knight as well. Alternatively, bring lots and lots of lascannons, bring Abbadon, and try and shoot them off the table I suppose. I remember a list here floating around, black legion shooty. It boosted 23 lascannons or something.
I have 14 missile launchers in my list just in tac and small havoc squads. Its sensible against all opponent types for sure. Also after seeing Dark Eldar maraud around in venoms and raisers I cant see this tren reversing itself. Gotta reduce that protection to ashes or else. Knight just accentuate what we already know.
I'd like to hear if people would consider to add 1-2 Amiriger's with autocannons to a list of R&H which is focused on mobile warfare style. It is a semi attempt at a fun list that can deal with most stuff and i thought maybee some better autocannons on a "tough" chasis would help.
Atm i run something along the line of this:
Renegade commander: Warlord, basic warlord trait of +1 ld aura, Covenant of khorne,
Renegade commander:
Not Online!!! wrote: I'd like to hear if people would consider to add 1-2 Amiriger's with autocannons to a list of R&H which is focused on mobile warfare style. It is a semi attempt at a fun list that can deal with most stuff and i thought maybee some better autocannons on a "tough" chasis would help.
Atm i run something along the line of this:
Renegade commander: Warlord, basic warlord trait of +1 ld aura, Covenant of khorne,
Renegade commander:
2x6 marauders: once with Meltas, once with flamers, rest is shotguns
1x Valkyrie: multilaser 2x rocketpods
1x10 Marauders: 2 sniperrifles
Salamander scout tank: autocannon, Heavy stubber, Heavy bolter.
Rest is filled with cheap chaff (usually 20 men militia blobs with chaos sigil and voxes)
I thought about a R&H list & the only units that are 'worth' playing - even in a casual environment are Hellhounds, Disciples, Command Squads & Marauders. Maybe some Coven Psykers, but thats about it. Hellhounds for themselves are
incredible, Stalker-Marauders with Plasma / Melta are cool Ruin-Campers and Heavy Weapons that hit on 3+ are a good reason for Disciples. Other than that, i'd go with a mixed CSM Cultists heavy list & springle some R&H in there.
Not Online!!! wrote: I'd like to hear if people would consider to add 1-2 Amiriger's with autocannons to a list of R&H which is focused on mobile warfare style. It is a semi attempt at a fun list that can deal with most stuff and i thought maybee some better autocannons on a "tough" chasis would help.
Atm i run something along the line of this:
Renegade commander: Warlord, basic warlord trait of +1 ld aura, Covenant of khorne,
Renegade commander:
2x6 marauders: once with Meltas, once with flamers, rest is shotguns
1x Valkyrie: multilaser 2x rocketpods
1x10 Marauders: 2 sniperrifles
Salamander scout tank: autocannon, Heavy stubber, Heavy bolter.
Rest is filled with cheap chaff (usually 20 men militia blobs with chaos sigil and voxes)
I thought about a R&H list & the only units that are 'worth' playing - even in a casual environment are Hellhounds, Disciples, Command Squads & Marauders. Maybe some Coven Psykers, but thats about it. Hellhounds for themselves are
incredible, Stalker-Marauders with Plasma / Melta are cool Ruin-Campers and Heavy Weapons that hit on 3+ are a good reason for Disciples. Other than that, i'd go with a mixed CSM Cultists heavy list & springle some R&H in there.
Ehhh, i agree that militia is generally speaking to bad except if you run disciples.
Since when you play "pure R&H" you need them anyway why not take a command squad instead with command voxes,they are literally the same unit except one is 4-14 the other is 5-15.
If you run 3 command squads, statistically all militia squads will have ld9, 10 if you throw the commander near the command squad and the chaos sigil let's you roll 2d6 and take the lower for morale.
Leads to a surprisingly annoying 20 man blob, still the lack of militia training hurts.
Btw you forgot the Renegade heavy weapons squads with mortars, funnily enough the only correctly priced base militia unit at 3 pts.
orkswubwub wrote: What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....
To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)
I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...
Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.
What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)
Well, we could bring our own knight as well. Alternatively, bring lots and lots of lascannons, bring Abbadon, and try and shoot them off the table I suppose. I remember a list here floating around, black legion shooty. It boosted 23 lascannons or something.
That was mine.
Played it against a Knight list last week, including a Valliant and a couple Castellans. Took down 2 Knights before getting tabled.
While the outcome did not favor Chaos, the game could have gone either way. The last Knight was down to 8 wounds at the end of the game. Had he not made a couple invulnerable saves, I would have had it. We're going to play again and this time I'm bringing as many Cultists as possible.
My main observation is preventing Knights from stepping into your lines is very important. They have great movement and can walk past infantry squads, so screens only mean something if they include a ton of bodies. Preventing your opponent from physically placing their models where they want seems like a big part of how Chaos wins against IKs. Even when they're moving 12 inches, they have to find a place for that huge base.
make sure you are playing that right. They cannot walk past infantry squads. they can fall back through them, but in the movement phase they cannot step over your infantry. So they are actually a bit easier to screen than you experienced and it sounds like your opponent inadvertently cheated by giving his knights added mobility. Also remember that Knights cannot pass through ruins or other walls that infantry can move through and the limits of their mobility can really start to take effect.
Of course your opponent was playing with magical flying knights that propel themselves through the air on rainbow farts over your models.
akaean wrote: make sure you are playing that right. They cannot walk past infantry squads. they can fall back through them, but in the movement phase they cannot step over your infantry. So they are actually a bit easier to screen than you experienced and it sounds like your opponent inadvertently cheated by giving his knights added mobility. Also remember that Knights cannot pass through ruins or other walls that infantry can move through and the limits of their mobility can really start to take effect.
Of course your opponent was playing with magical flying knights that propel themselves through the air on rainbow farts over your models.
Heh. It certainly felt like magic farts were at work here.
To be clear, they step over screens when there’s not enough models to cover an entire area. No one was cheating.
IF a knight does not start the turn engaged and there are some cultists 6 inches away from him. He CANNOT step over the cultists and must go around them.
IF a knight starts the turn engaged, he can fall back through the cultists.
Knights can only ever step over anything during a FALL BACK move. if they step over anything ever during any other type of move.... its illegal. Cheating may be a little harsh, since I doubt any misplay was intentional. Its more likely a rules error in his favor.
orkswubwub wrote: What is the best counter to knights for Chaos for a tournament setting? I get havocs with lascannons with prescience and VOTLW do ok (of course if the warlord is a 3++ rotated ion shields even refiring the havocs may not make a huge dent). But practically the havocs will just die the next turn as the knight moves up 10 inches and blasts the models. It may be possible to bring a few groups of havocs but this will leave the list weak against most armies that spam models (prior tournament meta). Similarly this basically nukes the idea of predators, defilers, soul grinders, etc....
To get around the invul it seems death hex and/or skullreaver are the best bets. TSons smite may help (a bit) but when digging through 28 wounds is not really the most reliable way of dropping a knight. our typical go to for ranged fire support -oblits - seems kind of janky as even with optimal rolls by mathhammer, they only little over half kill a knight on refire and will for sure die instantly the following turn to conflag cannon or other dakka (as their range is only 24 inches and will lose the -1 to hit for alpha within 12). Sitting at 3W they are also just begging for arminger fire (3Dmg)
I've thought about using meltas on some of my chars as they can hide with the character targeting rule but range is kind of shallow, and even at 8S against 8T and a 4++ will only connect 1/4 of the time (one turn essentially out of the game in a tournament setting)...
Using melee to get around the invul seems perhaps a solution but I can't find melee units able to toe the knight well - daemon princes literally do 8 wounds or so on average before being one shot. Skullreaver is actually a strong option, but to put everything into one model (ecsp if the opponent just runs away with ranged knights), isn't ideal.
What are our go-to knight counters? (that are practical in a tournament setting beyond a one game, 1v1 matchup)
Well, we could bring our own knight as well. Alternatively, bring lots and lots of lascannons, bring Abbadon, and try and shoot them off the table I suppose. I remember a list here floating around, black legion shooty. It boosted 23 lascannons or something.
That was mine.
Played it against a Knight list last week, including a Valliant and a couple Castellans. Took down 2 Knights before getting tabled.
While the outcome did not favor Chaos, the game could have gone either way. The last Knight was down to 8 wounds at the end of the game. Had he not made a couple invulnerable saves, I would have had it. We're going to play again and this time I'm bringing as many Cultists as possible.
My main observation is preventing Knights from stepping into your lines is very important. They have great movement and can walk past infantry squads, so screens only mean something if they include a ton of bodies. Preventing your opponent from physically placing their models where they want seems like a big part of how Chaos wins against IKs. Even when they're moving 12 inches, they have to find a place for that huge base.
If you could post the list - but again going to my point, 23 lascannon list (at least historically) has NOT been tournament competitive. You will get owned by hordes of models / other competitive armies etc. It's not hard to think up an "anti-tank" list in general, but how much anti-tank is enough to deal with knights but not make the army niche.
orkswubwub wrote: If you could post the list - but again going to my point, 23 lascannon list (at least historically) has NOT been tournament competitive. You will get owned by hordes of models / other competitive armies etc. It's not hard to think up an "anti-tank" list in general, but how much anti-tank is enough to deal with knights but not make the army niche.
Generic statements about this list being weak against hordes are way off base. I think I've said enough about it at this point and have no interest in a conversation about competitive.
Went 2 major and 1 minor victory this weekend with:
2000 points
Battalion Nurgle
Epi-pen
DP with corruption no wings (Miasma)
3x min nurglings
1x 30 plague bearers with instrument/banner
1x 9 pox rider with instrument/banner
Battalion Nurgle
DP with wings and talons (Flesh)
DP with wings and sword (Virulance)
Spoilpox Scrivener
3x min nurglings
1x four plague drones with instrument/banner
Welp I finally took it out for a test drive, and it's everything I hoped for and more. 9 pox riders can tank pretty much anything in a 2000 point list you throw at it. Add on miasma psychic power and it's unstoppable. The grasping maws on the toads can pretty much wear down anything, knights, infantry, invulns, archons, whatever.
Best tactic is to reserve them with a walking DP for 3 CP. They don't need an upgraded banner save the CP for Warp Surge in your opponents shooting and/or assault phase for whatever is threatening them. And by threat, I dropped to five models once in three games, and it was 9 Kastellions with shooting twice shenanigans with Cawl. And they still survived enough to make a banner roll of 1, and with psychic and strategems I had them back above 6 in no time.
My updated list will swap out the drones, plague bearers, and Spoilpox Scrivener; for a bilepiper and maybe a GUO. (Or some kind of CSM/knight ally, not sure yet.)
The ONLY thing i could see giving this a run in a tourney setting is morty and Death Guard they ignore alot of the advantages. You can't make a perfect list, but this one is very forgiving to play with.
For what it's worth about Terminators, with a Banner of Wrath they get a pretty decent chance to charge. Everyone knows you're better off doing Endless Cacophony on Obliterators anyway.
Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...
Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.
On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.
The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.
0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48
Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.
Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...
Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.
On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.
The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.
0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48
Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.
Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.
In my experience, Possessed aren't worth the points. The 2 wounds and invuln are nice, but they can get easily out done by other melee choices for Chaos, even barring the Berzerker. Their stats are too underwhelming due to the randomness.
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...
Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.
On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.
The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.
0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48
Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.
Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.
reading your replies i dont understand what kind of game you play. I think you never played 1 single tournament/competitive match in your life (dont take that like offense pls). U must buy an expensive unit (plus a rhino to deliver them) spend a command point, +cast a 7cw power (barring some bonus 50% times it goes off) then hope they roll good with random profile, wont be rude but really too much randomness and point cost
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...
Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.
On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.
The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.
0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48
Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.
Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.
reading your replies i dont understand what kind of game you play. I think you never played 1 single tournament/competitive match in your life (dont take that like offense pls). U must buy an expensive unit (plus a rhino to deliver them) spend a command point, +cast a 7cw power (barring some bonus 50% times it goes off) then hope they roll good with random profile, wont be rude but really too much randomness and point cost
I play Word Bearers. I like to find things I can do with my signature unit.
Eldenfirefly wrote: The shootiest Khorne unit is probably the Lord of skulls, with the Daemon forge strategem giving it reroll to hit and reroll to wound.
I mean, if you wanna be exact, I think the Skull Cannons might be shootier. 6 of them are d6 each, which has the CHANCE of being more dakka.
Also, I just realized Crimson Crown works for shooting too? Is there any good synergy from CSM Daemonkin shooters near it?
LoS is of course the best option; Greater Brass Scorpion is... worth a look, especially if you Warptime it, but don’t buy it for it; three C-Beam Decimators will probably get an extra shot a turn out of it (but again, don’t throw a fistful of money away just because you can do this *today*); Defiler isn’t ideal as it probably wants to be moving (and remains somewhat overcosted); Forgefiends have pretty good synergy - with the caveat that they are even more overcosted and underpowered and this will not make them remotely worth it; Oblits can pop VotLW which has decent synergy, and even without EC or Epidemius they’re generally worth taking - and their modest range isn’t much of a drawback when your CC wearer is probably going to be moving up the board anyway
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...
Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.
On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.
The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.
0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48
Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.
Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.
Yes, with possessed. DTtFE + IoE + Prescience & The Masque's +1 is actually DTtFE triggering on a 3+. IoE is worded to stop at 5+, Prescience gives flat +1 to hit & so does the Masque. Locus of Grace additional attacks don't trigger - iirc - DTtFE hits, but that's still almost
doubling your attacks. One thing i will test is to use Mutilators. They're reasonable priced but with S6-8 (or 7-9 with a Herald) and DTtFE there's a good chance they can flatten a Knight. Also VotLW interacts with LoG, doesn't it? VotLW is a +1 to wound & LoG is worded as a 6+ to wound
grants an extra attack.
Also, I just realized Crimson Crown works for shooting too? Is there any good synergy from CSM Daemonkin shooters near it?
LoS is of course the best option; Greater Brass Scorpion is... worth a look, especially if you Warptime it, but don’t buy it for it; three C-Beam Decimators will probably get an extra shot a turn out of it (but again, don’t throw a fistful of money away just because you can do this *today*); Defiler isn’t ideal as it probably wants to be moving (and remains somewhat overcosted); Forgefiends have pretty good synergy - with the caveat that they are even more overcosted and underpowered and this will not make them remotely worth it; Oblits can pop VotLW which has decent synergy, and even without EC or Epidemius they’re generally worth taking - and their modest range isn’t much of a drawback when your CC wearer is probably going to be moving up the board anyway
Thanks for the exhaustive summary. Unfortunately, the Brass Scorpion can't be targeted by friendly psyker spells :(
I was looking at LoW's but man i think the LoS is just the ugliest brick and I would not want to have it on my display shelf as awesome as its rules are. A Kytan, maybe. I never thought about Khorne oblits near the Crimson Crown, that seems fun, but I don't own any yet.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What's the Crimson Crown do for Khorne Daemons? I don't own the daemon codex
6” aura, bonus attacks (shooting or melee) when you roll a 6+ to wound, must use same weapon as the one that inflicted the wound, the bonus attacks cannot generate more bonus attacks (RAW this means they can’t trigger DttFE)
Crimson Crown gives friendly <Khorne Daemon> units another attack on a wound roll of 6+, said attacks can't generate additional attacks.
It's fairly basic but provides a good buff so in a Khorne Daemon list it's worth taking as your first or second relic. It could be worth taking if you run WE Oblits but I can't really see it being useful for much else.
Mutilators aren't something I'd thought about so maybe that is something worth investigating. Mutilators are actually good for their points now but with deep strike beta rules and their awful movement I've always dismissed them as too slow. But with a Crimson Crown herald and the re-roll charges from the Khorne Daemonic Locus? Maybe there's something in that...
I tried crimson crown with lord of skulls before. I had a khorne bloodmaster with the crown following beside my LOS. You would think that 12 shots with a hades gratling cannon and another bunch of shots with the stomache gun would result in some 6s to wounds. But over the course of the whole battle, it resulted in just a couple of extra shots.
Its ok, but don't bank your whole strategy on this one relic. It won't really add that much to base your whole strategy on it.
I would say that if you are going obliterators, that shoot twice strategem is probably far more powerful on slanaash oblits rather than to make your oblits khorne just to benefit from the crimoson crown relic.
lindsay40k wrote: Anyone tried stacking VotLW and Locus of Grace on Slaaneshi Possessed? +1 to wound, extra attacks on 6’s to wound. Throw on Prescience against IMPERIUM and that’s...
Each attack hits on a 2+ for 0.83 hits.
On a 4+ to hit, that’s a 50% chance of the same again from DTtFE; +0.42 hits. These attacks cannot generate extra attacks, so LoG doesn’t apply to them.
The 0.83 basic hits can benefit from LoG. A third of them - 0.27 - generate an extra attack with a 0.83 hit rate (no DTtFE on these), for 0.23 extra hits.
0.83 + 0.42 + 0.23 = 1.48
Overall, this leads to them hitting about 50% more attacks than they actually start with.
Interesting. D1 makes this somewhat limited against heavy targets, but they’ll blend MEQs.
Yes, with possessed. DTtFE + IoE + Prescience & The Masque's +1 is actually DTtFE triggering on a 3+. IoE is worded to stop at 5+, Prescience gives flat +1 to hit & so does the Masque. Locus of Grace additional attacks don't trigger - iirc - DTtFE hits, but that's still almost
doubling your attacks. One thing i will test is to use Mutilators. They're reasonable priced but with S6-8 (or 7-9 with a Herald) and DTtFE there's a good chance they can flatten a Knight. Also VotLW interacts with LoG, doesn't it? VotLW is a +1 to wound & LoG is worded as a 6+ to wound
grants an extra attack.
Totally not competitive but if you really want to go all in, ditch the icon, and make them death guard. You're still getting DttFE on 4+ with Masque & Prescience, but then you can cast Blades of Putrefaction, Virulent Blessing, and use VotLW + Locus of Virulence so you get D2 on a 3+ to wound and D3 on a 4+
Has anyone tried out Knights yet? I played a game yesterday and used a minimum kitted one (My khorne melee knight ) as a d-carnifex. ended up my enemy took the 354 point bait, and on my turn i collapsed 18 berzerkers and a daemon prince from the left!
vaklor4 wrote: Has anyone tried out Knights yet? I played a game yesterday and used a minimum kitted one (My khorne melee knight ) as a d-carnifex. ended up my enemy took the 354 point bait, and on my turn i collapsed 18 berzerkers and a daemon prince from the left!
That's pretty much how i would play with knights as well. Use them to distract and if ignored they are going to wreck stuff, but if the opponent focus fire to make it die on turn 1 or 2 most of the rest will be able to do their thing. I have used land raiders with the same tactic in mind, the d-carnefiex is one of the best tactics around for a reason. I think that single knights will find their way into chaos lists to add som diversity, be a d-carnefex and overall look sexy. As long as they don't eat to much points I think knights i a great addition. I will get one simply because i like the model.
Plasma bikes or raptors?
What am I missing here?
3 bikes gives you 3 plasma shots, 6 at 12"
6 bolter shots, 12 at 12"
T5
6W
14"
Or raptors gives you 3 plasma shots, 6 at 12"
0 bolter shots, 2 at 12"
T4
5W
12"
If your intention is to keep them out of close combat then I'm right in thinking bikes are the obvious choice especially when they're cheaper.
I can only see raptors being useful over bikes if you hold them back until turn three to sneak them onto an objective and then you might as well keep them as cheap as possible and lose the plasma?
Plasma raptors is not ideal raptor use.
They want to melee with thier LD debuff, and ideally combo with other LD debuffs and/or things that target LD.
However, in plasma role they still got some value over bikes. They are less valuable to multi damage weapons, like plasma. And they can deepstikes.
If that's enough, it's up to you.
They ARE underwhelming in CC.
Until you factor in Ld debuff stacking, and then they murder stuff by the virtue of being there when its time for a moral check.
You don't bother with raptors unless you get some Ld shenanigans going, or you want some DS specials.
So bikes it is for mobility. I need something to get out and score objectives. My army is too static gunline at the moment.
Would an empty rhino be a stupid idea? 70pts, will largely be ignored and if it isn't it diverts some of the opponent's anti armour
Rhinos are pretty good at a few things like blocking traffic and sometimes line of sight, absorbing overwatch and tying units up in combat, lobbing a few shots with cheap combibolters and a havoc launcher. I like 'em now.
Consider Renegade Legions for Chaos bikers to give them the auto advance of 6" for bikes and then charging (if they need to charge for some reason).
Though Black Legion for advancing and shooting the combibolters as assault weapons is pretty awesome, and then makes the case for plasma bikers if running with a jump or biker lord...or Abaddon dropping in. Making them Slaanesh and shooting twice, that's almost good then.
Yeah I really want to use the rapid fire as assault legion trait but just haven't found it that useful. Maybe if you still got double shots at rapid fire range it would be worth advancing to bring you into the rapid fire range but generally you're trading out 1 shot at 24" for 1 shot at 12" but at -1. Not worth it...
Abaddon303 wrote: So bikes it is for mobility. I need something to get out and score objectives. My army is too static gunline at the moment.
Would an empty rhino be a stupid idea? 70pts, will largely be ignored and if it isn't it diverts some of the opponent's anti armour
The metal boxes takes some firepower to remove. As an obejtive-grabber i'm not sure, maybe better to have a minimum raptor squad that can deepstrike the objective late in game? 15 pts more then a rhino for a barebones squad. But the rhino will be harder to remove for sure. Playtest it and see if it works for you? I used a rhino with a 2 x 5 bare bones marine squad that jumped out turn 3-4 to rapid fire things of objectives and holding them Not that expensive but not that effective either.
What are peoples opinions on butcher cannons? And best platform for it? Been looking at a contemptor that duel wields butcher cannons. Looks good on paper but has anyone used them? Looks pretty reasonable priced to me as well 163 pts. For friendly games with good and fun lists so not hypercompetetive. And when I include a forgeworld unit in my list does it have to have it's own detachment or can I include it as an elite choose as long as it's the same legion?
Hmm. Have any Renegades experimented with Fiends of Slaanesh joining a T1 charge to entangle a screen? The Warptimed Defiler/Maulerfiend approach could take on a whole new aspect with bikers joining in. Could work with Slaanesh or Nurgle (with tree). Theoretically, Raptors as well, but this isn’t an approach where you want to overkill with morale and enable your opponent to remove the model anchoring a unit to a FoS.
Has anybody been using Lord Arkos? he's expensive but I think a lot of people are overlooking something important in his 'infiltrate' rule.
unlike scouts/nurglings he can deploy right up to the enemy deployment zone and not the usual 9" away, (though he has to be 12" from the nearest enemy model) so if you get first drop you're right on your opponents doorstep!
I've had great success recently using this to deny quite a large area in front of my units to drop in cultists bombs/noise marines without having to bring nurglings in an alpha legion fluffy list,
is there another way we could use this to benefit us?
What's neat about Arkos is that he has an aura that's not redundant. That means you can combine with a regular Lord and get the most bang for your buck.
I was just looking at him earlier today as a candidate for a character assassin.
There's a pesky Haemonculus with Helm of Spite in my meta that causes all manner of annoyance to my T.Sons Supreme command, so I need to find something that can fairly reliably get a T1 charge off and just vaporise him.
Infiltrates for free, Re-rolls misses, can get +2 to wound non-vehicles when combined with VotLW. Statistically, just about kills a haemonculus through his T5/5++/6++.
5 infiltrating zerkers would do the same, and be cheaper, but the issue is that they don't do squat if I lose the roll for turn 1.
Posted this earlier in general discussion, but realised here is probably the better place
So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:
- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle
HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.
So, any thoughts on a replacement?
The army is a kind of themed list which would be a little long winded to go into, and anything you suggest I could probably convert to fit. There's few 'human' units though, beyond the characters and a noise marine party wagon. The rest being constructs and engines of some sort. Leviathan Dread being the showpiece big unit.
Edit:
Adding some detail to current thoughts on other units.
Want to try and have a characterful 'command' squad, so I'd like to have at least a Lord and a Sorcerer. Maybe two lords, or a champion (or even lucius or someone if there's worthwhile use of points to be had). This could be merged with the next thing:
A Mhara Gal style demon prince. Maybe just a converted contemptor or similar. Wings might be tricky though, and not sure if a Prince on foot is any use? (Might be another question I need to ask). Considering having 2 or even 3 Princes... (obviously would mean dropping the sorcerers/lords in exchange).
A Leviathan Dread (converted from a Thanatar). Probably twin Butcher Array, or a Butcher/GravFlux combo... Dont think it's worth keeping a melee weapon on it?
Considering 10 Noise Marines (2x 5man squads) in a Rhino, which could then be converted into a party bus. Not sure on this one again, just sounds like a fun idea. 5 or 6 NM instead would be cheaper, and would allow a character to join them.
trasigtsonster wrote: What are peoples opinions on butcher cannons? And best platform for it? Been looking at a contemptor that duel wields butcher cannons. Looks good on paper but has anyone used them? Looks pretty reasonable priced to me as well 163 pts. For friendly games with good and fun lists so not hypercompetetive. And when I include a forgeworld unit in my list does it have to have it's own detachment or can I include it as an elite choose as long as it's the same legion?
I'm a big fan. Especially for DG. Dual butcher Contemptors and Leviathans are both good options, just depends whether or not you want flexibility or durability.
Niiru wrote: So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:
- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle
HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.
Where do you find the increase in points?
I looked in the Imperial Armour Index: Force of Chaos FAQ from June, but there are no points increases there, that I can see?
I checked the Combat Roster too, which still has the Giant Chaos Spawns as 5 power level, but of course I don't expect it to be updated correctly nessecarily.
Also while we're at talking about Giant Chaos Spawns. Do you read the newest FAQ to mean that they also get Disgustingly Resillience?
RE Noise Marines: a squad of ten can have two Blastmasters, which makes Endless Cacophony & VOtLW Areally something
If you can keep your Leviathan or Contemptor well screened, two big guns is probably fine. Tyranid players are tending to give dakkafexes a melee head option instead of the +1BS head for flexibility, but we don’t have that option.
Niiru wrote: So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:
- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle
HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.
Where do you find the increase in points?
I looked in the Imperial Armour Index: Force of Chaos FAQ from June, but there are no points increases there, that I can see?
I checked the Combat Roster too, which still has the Giant Chaos Spawns as 5 power level, but of course I don't expect it to be updated correctly nessecarily.
Also while we're at talking about Giant Chaos Spawns. Do you read the newest FAQ to mean that they also get Disgustingly Resillience?
Niiru wrote: So last year when I was making my Chaos lists, I had a staple of two Giant Chaos Spawn. They had the perfect balance of what I was looking for:
- Being able to convert up two big, scary models
- Good enough stats to be effective at scaring the enemy
- Cheap enough that they could be thrown into battle
HOWEVER... they used to be 75 points each (pretty decent for an inconsistent model that could die easily). They are now 150pts each (pretty expensive, like 50 points more than they're worth). The Spined Chaos Beast is now reduced to 150 points, and it seems to be all around more consistently powerful for the points. Still expensive though.
Where do you find the increase in points?
I looked in the Imperial Armour Index: Force of Chaos FAQ from June, but there are no points increases there, that I can see?
I checked the Combat Roster too, which still has the Giant Chaos Spawns as 5 power level, but of course I don't expect it to be updated correctly nessecarily.
Also while we're at talking about Giant Chaos Spawns. Do you read the newest FAQ to mean that they also get Disgustingly Resillience?
Chapter approved.
Giant Chaos Spawn changed from 75pts to 150pts.
Spined Chaos Beast changed from 190pts to 150pts.
I do vaguely remember an errata that changed some of the rules in the IA book, but I can't remember if it added god marks to the spawn or not.
They both indeed choose marks now, as daemons the way princes and furies do. (so you get the associated power up.
Nurgle is the best. DR is really too good compared to the other guards on ANYTHING.
Tzeentch is passable, being another defense buff but not as strong.
Slanessh is meh, only useful when something actually stays in combat with them, or charges them.
Khorne is totally useless for them, as they got tons of attacks anyway.
Rather thematic actually.
BoomWolf wrote: They both indeed choose marks now, as daemons the way princes and furies do. (so you get the associated power up.
Nurgle is the best. DR is really too good compared to the other guards on ANYTHING.
Tzeentch is passable, being another defense buff but not as strong.
Slanessh is meh, only useful when something actually stays in combat with them, or charges them.
Khorne is totally useless for them, as they got tons of attacks anyway.
Rather thematic actually.
Yeh, I had them down as Nurgle Giant Spawn. Not sure they're worth 150 points though, when I could get a double-blastmaster + power scourge hellbrute for that much.
Well, the (nurgle) giant spawn is harder to take down than a brute, even before you factor the healing.
And once you manage to get into combat-it gets big. FAST.
In fact, its a pretty good answer to wrap units. they can handle it at all and he'll quickly swell while fighting them.
Thing is, giant spawns are meant for chaos daemon armies, not CSM armies.
If you are a mixed army, especially with slannesh being a major portion-go noise brute 100%.
But at an army centered around nurgle (or even tzeentch) daemons, its mostly likely better to take a giant spawn.
Giant Chaos Spawn changed from 75pts to 150pts.
Spined Chaos Beast changed from 190pts to 150pts.
I do vaguely remember an errata that changed some of the rules in the IA book, but I can't remember if it added god marks to the spawn or not.
Ah yes of course. Found it in Chapter approved. Thanks!
A doubling in price for the same rules that wasn't a steal at 75? FW points are crazy as always :-)
Once they got the daemonic allegiance buffs, they were absolutely a steal at 75 points. Was doubling them excessive? Sure. But not surprised they got nerfed. Same as Malefic Lords.
Giant Chaos Spawn changed from 75pts to 150pts.
Spined Chaos Beast changed from 190pts to 150pts.
I do vaguely remember an errata that changed some of the rules in the IA book, but I can't remember if it added god marks to the spawn or not.
Ah yes of course. Found it in Chapter approved. Thanks!
A doubling in price for the same rules that wasn't a steal at 75? FW points are crazy as always :-)
I mean in fairness, they probably were a steal at 75 points! But I'm not sure it's worth 150. Though it's hard to find a better option for a nurgle themed 'big nasty'. Blight Haulers and Bloat-Drones are possibilities.
Blade of the hydra or puscleaver if points don't matter? Puscleaver always wounding on 2+ (except against vehcs) seems pretty decent anticharacter - whereas blade of the hydra will have 2 extra attack (on average) but be wounding on 3-4's unless hitting chaffe. Also the 2 flat from hydra is nice for consistency...
That depends on what the HQ is like. Against a Custodes Bike the Puscleaver is gonna give more bang for the buck, even with those potential extra attacks the Blade could give.
Against Slamguinus you're probably just gonna want to go Blade. I haven't done the Mathhammer but I imagine that's how it'll go. You probably won't get stuck fighting meatshields.
trasigtsonster wrote: What are peoples opinions on butcher cannons? And best platform for it? Been looking at a contemptor that duel wields butcher cannons. Looks good on paper but has anyone used them? Looks pretty reasonable priced to me as well 163 pts. For friendly games with good and fun lists so not hypercompetetive. And when I include a forgeworld unit in my list does it have to have it's own detachment or can I include it as an elite choose as long as it's the same legion?
I'm a big fan. Especially for DG. Dual butcher Contemptors and Leviathans are both good options, just depends whether or not you want flexibility or durability.
I've heard both options are great, especialy if you take them as Death Guard (can move and shoot with no penalty)
From my understanding, it's a big mighty powerhouse, especially with something like two butcher cannon arrays firing out 16 s8 shots a turn.
It is also expensive though, at around 350 points for that loadout. You can get two contemptors each with two normal butcher cannons for the same fire output per turn (but more wounds) for about the same cost. They don't look as cool though.
Curious about Fire Raptors. How are people generally running them for Chaos armies?
It's very different than Horus Heresy. I'm running mine with lascannons and heavy bolters, they definitely get the job done but Supersonic makes it hard to focus on the same units twice. Putting them in hover mode seems a shame and they get blown off the board when I'm not moving them.
techsoldaten wrote: Curious about Fire Raptors. How are people generally running them for Chaos armies?
It's very different than Horus Heresy. I'm running mine with lascannons and heavy bolters, they definitely get the job done but Supersonic makes it hard to focus on the same units twice. Putting them in hover mode seems a shame and they get blown off the board when I'm not moving them.
techsoldaten wrote: Curious about Fire Raptors. How are people generally running them for Chaos armies?
It's very different than Horus Heresy. I'm running mine with lascannons and heavy bolters, they definitely get the job done but Supersonic makes it hard to focus on the same units twice. Putting them in hover mode seems a shame and they get blown off the board when I'm not moving them.
People generally running them before the huge cost adjustment.
techsoldaten wrote: Curious about Fire Raptors. How are people generally running them for Chaos armies?
It's very different than Horus Heresy. I'm running mine with lascannons and heavy bolters, they definitely get the job done but Supersonic makes it hard to focus on the same units twice. Putting them in hover mode seems a shame and they get blown off the board when I'm not moving them.
So, I haven't really been seeing a lot about them so I have to ask: anyone running Renegade Marines? I know they lose out on warlord traits, relics and strategems that the legions get, but I rather like their Dark Raiders rule and they look like they lend well to playing more aggressive Marines without locking yourself out of psychic powers (ala World Eaters).
techsoldaten wrote: Curious about Fire Raptors. How are people generally running them for Chaos armies?
It's very different than Horus Heresy. I'm running mine with lascannons and heavy bolters, they definitely get the job done but Supersonic makes it hard to focus on the same units twice. Putting them in hover mode seems a shame and they get blown off the board when I'm not moving them.
People generally running them before the huge cost adjustment.
My impression is it's still worth the points but needs to be part of the right list. I've been pairing it with Bikers, Cultists, Obliterators and Maulerfiends with mixed results. Lost one game because it was the last model left standing.
I am considering a list which more or less boils down to running Magnus, Mortarion, and a Lord of Skulls in a superheavy detachment combined with a mass of cultists in one of a few configurations, all of them battalions: either 1 group of 40 and 2 of ten (mark of slaneesh, black legion) with abadon and a warpsmith or 2 groups of 40 and a group of 10 (mark of slaanesh, alpha legion) with a chaos lord and a sorc. Both versions come out right around 2000 points (maybe needing to shave a few cultists here or there).
What do people think about that sort of set up in a competitive sense? I feel like it has answers to most things, presents difficult targets to choose from and have some serious umph (buffed double tapping big cultist blob, numerous mortal wounds, etc).
Considering adding a transport option to my list (because I have a cool walker-tank model I want to convert and use), which pretty much boils down to the following -
Two Rhinos - Cheapest option, most boring option, probably the most efficient and reliable option. I only have one walker-tank though, so I'd need to find another. Maybe.
Land Raider Achilles - About 420 points, so double the cost of two Rhinos. Lots of Melta and a non-LoS soulburner barrage, as well as a 4+ invulnerable, makes it a bit more exciting on the table though. Can only transport 6, but that might be ok.
Land Raider Proteus - About 380pts. No invulnerable, less wounds, some decent lascannon firepower though. Transports 10 which would be enough.
Spartan Assault Tank - About 480 points. The most expensive option. Loads of lascannons, no invulnerable save. Which means the Achilles is maybe more survivable? But spartan can carry 25, which would make it a big old basket full of eggs. Edit - Biggest plus point though, is that it can still shoot in combat, as well as fall back, shoot, and charge. Something the Land Raiders -wish- they could do.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: If you wanna just get ridiculous, You can do the Chaos Party bus- The Mastodon.
It's over 1000 points, but you can carry 40 models in it.
Dont think my army would have 40 models that would actually wan't to get in it lol.
Not even sure I'd have 25 for the Spartan, but the ability to shoot while in combat seems pretty huge, as well as being able to fall back and charge. The land raider achilles would be more survivable and be cheaper, but if a squad of termagents or conscripts walk up to it, it's basically a paperweight for the rest of the game.
ClockworkZion wrote: Put 40 Berserkers with chainaxes and swords in it with Icons of Wrath and dare people to ignore the impending doom?
I mean for this specific army list that I'm putting together lol. I don't think I even have 40 models that can get into the vehicle. I might have 20 mutants, but I dont think they can get onto CSM vehicles. I could change them for poxwalkers or cultists... but would you want them messing up the seats?
ClockworkZion wrote: Put 40 Berserkers with chainaxes and swords in it with Icons of Wrath and dare people to ignore the impending doom?
I mean for this specific army list that I'm putting together lol. I don't think I even have 40 models that can get into the vehicle. I might have 20 mutants, but I dont think they can get onto CSM vehicles. I could change them for poxwalkers or cultists... but would you want them messing up the seats?
To be fair, if we're talking about Chaos, it's just as likely that the seats would eat you like some sort of Mimic.
Hi all, I'm thinking about starting an alpha legion army and wanted to get some opinions before I made any purchases. I've played a proxy game against my friend's imperial knights with an earlier form of this list but decided to turn it into a brigrade for extra cps. Thanks for any input!
A Spartan with 20 Berzerkers and DA + EC is a pretty brutal target for Warptime. MoS + DA nicely makes up for lack of invuln, though eyebrows will raise with that carrying a Khornate unit.
lindsay40k wrote: A Spartan with 20 Berzerkers and DA + EC is a pretty brutal target for Warptime. MoS + DA nicely makes up for lack of invuln, though eyebrows will raise with that carrying a Khornate unit.
My current thoughts on a loadout for a vehicle would be along the lines of :
Fills up a rhino or land raider. If I went spartan, I'd maybe add another squad of plague marines and a chaos lord. A decent burst of dakka, followed by a decent melee and a huge dump of powerful grenade fun. Massively expensive though.
I was going to add some questions on some test list ideas I had, but instead I ended up writing out the lists in full on the Army Lists forum.
So if anyone would like to chime in with some tips or opinions, I'd be very appreciative
Played a guy last weekend that ran alpha legion dakka hellbrutes.
Which was interesting. I personally feel like dakka dreads waste a lot of potential outside of the Deredeo but I could see running up some lascannon power scourge hellbrutes and Just Running then down someone’s throat with minus one to hit until you’re in charge range.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: Played a guy last weekend that ran alpha legion dakka hellbrutes.
Which was interesting. I personally feel like dakka dreads waste a lot of potential outside of the Deredeo but I could see running up some lascannon power scourge hellbrutes and Just Running then down someone’s throat with minus one to hit until you’re in charge range.
pointless use alpha legion for -1 and play CaC oriented hellbrutes, if you want play them alpha legion, play with missiles+laser and sit in backfield, if you can in some cover.
lindsay40k wrote: A Spartan with 20 Berzerkers and DA + EC is a pretty brutal target for Warptime. MoS + DA nicely makes up for lack of invuln, though eyebrows will raise with that carrying a Khornate unit.
My current thoughts on a loadout for a vehicle would be along the lines of :
Fills up a rhino or land raider. If I went spartan, I'd maybe add another squad of plague marines and a chaos lord. A decent burst of dakka, followed by a decent melee and a huge dump of powerful grenade fun. Massively expensive though.
Leave the Putrifier out and add a Lord. Either that or leave the gun upgrades out, you'll probably be throwing strategem buffed grenades instead of shooting. And if you are shooting, you want to rerolls ones. As a bonus, give your Lord the relic sword Plaguebringer and the Arch Contaminator and he can shred in combat.
lindsay40k wrote: A Spartan with 20 Berzerkers and DA + EC is a pretty brutal target for Warptime. MoS + DA nicely makes up for lack of invuln, though eyebrows will raise with that carrying a Khornate unit.
My current thoughts on a loadout for a vehicle would be along the lines of :
Fills up a rhino or land raider. If I went spartan, I'd maybe add another squad of plague marines and a chaos lord. A decent burst of dakka, followed by a decent melee and a huge dump of powerful grenade fun. Massively expensive though.
Leave the Putrifier out and add a Lord. Either that or leave the gun upgrades out, you'll probably be throwing strategem buffed grenades instead of shooting. And if you are shooting, you want to rerolls ones. As a bonus, give your Lord the relic sword Plaguebringer and the Arch Contaminator and he can shred in combat.
Interestingly enough, since I posted this (and then posted up my new list, link a couple posts above this one), I had already made this change
SHUPPET wrote: I want to build pure Alpha Legion list. Any tips other than a cultist blob and some sorcerers? How many Obliterators to run? Thanks guys
3*20 Khorne Berzerkers, 2 Apostals, 2 Exalted Champions, 3*10 Cultists.
Prey to Khorne that the enemy dont bring Flyers.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: Played a guy last weekend that ran alpha legion dakka hellbrutes.
Which was interesting. I personally feel like dakka dreads waste a lot of potential outside of the Deredeo but I could see running up some lascannon power scourge hellbrutes and Just Running then down someone’s throat with minus one to hit until you’re in charge range.
Dakka Dreads aren't bad if you're using a missile launcher and plasma cannon or lascannon and tapping into fire frenzy to nuke things. Since it requires you to shoot the nearest visible target it's not hard to set up using terrain or other units (like a Land Raider) to let you block LoS to anything you don't want to shoot with 4x lascannon shots plus missile hits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been mulling over basic CSM and while I know Cultists are seen as superior for CP farming, I feel like with the beta rules in play the CSM give the army some durability until the hammer drops.
Then again I'm working on Renegade Chapter rules so I'm tossing out some of the stuff that makes cultists really good (Alpha Legion tactics for example).
That said, I am tempted to run a melee focused blob of cultists to Tide of Traitors into my opponent's back line and smashing into their squishier stuff. Too bad any bonuses you have are lost when you redeploy and Bile can't buff them first.
SHUPPET wrote: I want to build pure Alpha Legion list. Any tips other than a cultist blob and some sorcerers? How many Obliterators to run? Thanks guys
3*20 Khorne Berzerkers, 2 Apostals, 2 Exalted Champions, 3*10 Cultists. Prey to Khorne that the enemy dont bring Flyers.
My opponents do bring flyers. Lol.
I should mention I'm looking for something a little less narrow. Doesn't have to be hyper competitive, it's not my main army and I'm doing it mostly for flavor, but at the same time I want to do it well.
I was thinking about bringing a Cultist blob for infiltration, a couple of units of Berzerkers in Rhinos with Ex.Champs, and supporting it with some Sorcerors and Jump Lords, with some Oblits for some AT that comes with -1 to hit. Is 3 full units of Oblits too much? Or too little? Should I just take Alpha Legion Havocs instead?
I'm playing my first casual tournament tomorrow running my word bearer painted army as Alpha Legion. Surprise Melon Farmers. I'm using 3 brutes each with a melee and reamed weapon.
In my test games the -1 to be hot actually helped them not get popped round one.
I totally agree, though, that this isn't the reason to play AL.
I’m not a fan of counts-as-Chapter/legion-with-great-rules, I’ve been running my Word Bearers with a focus on Sorcerers and daemonic units with a detachment of daemons bringing a useful locus. Legion trait’s worked out ok on my Havocs, even if it hasn’t saved as many of them as a straight -1 to be hit would have done. It’s a viable fluff build, hell we invented the Defiler, let’s get some mileage out of it
lindsay40k wrote: I’m not a fan of counts-as-Chapter/legion-with-great-rules, I’ve been running my Word Bearers with a focus on Sorcerers and daemonic units with a detachment of daemons bringing a useful locus. Legion trait’s worked out ok on my Havocs, even if it hasn’t saved as many of them as a straight -1 to be hit would have done. It’s a viable fluff build, hell we invented the Defiler, let’s get some mileage out of it
Quite Franky, me either. Next game I'll be back to WB with Skarbrand and his 20 hounds.
ATSKNF actually helps a lot, but for this particular game series i have to trudge up the field into 15 lascannons.
While AL is the strongest TAC choice, I feel most of the legions can be used reasonably well for TAC lists. The ones that can't I feel are going to be Night Lords (who get screwed when your opponent ignores morale), and Word Bearers (who suffer by how summoning has changed and basically getting ATSKNF as a chapter tactic). Renegades are a little hampered by the lack of a legion relic choice and strategem (as well as losing VotLW as an option) but otherwise I feel they're competent, if a little less flavorful in terms of rules.
In the codex Khorne feels fairly strong, especially since Chaos is geared more towards melee than shooting, with Slaanesh being a solid second choice (and the best choice for shooting armies, especially against Imperials as their Icon can serve as a solid defensive upgrade in melee).
Nurgle and Tzeentch feel the weakest of the options, but seeing as they have codexes representing the pinnacle of their aspects I can understand why that might be. Though Nurgle seems to like the Night Lords a lot so it's not too bad.
It's my random thought that if/when we get World Eaters and Emperor's Children as books the Heretic Astartes book might end up being the Chaos Undivided book with less god inspired boons when compared to the dedicated legions. That said, it'd give the undivided room to expand out into new directions while allowing the god specific stuff to more heavilly lean into their respective god's aspects in term of design.
Basically, we could end up with something like the Chaos Daemons where the gods each get units that look and feel different model wise from each other while still being part of a greater whole, and then the undivided arm can pursue a more generalist corruption of the Marines in terms of design (ala Dark Vengence models).
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: -1 to hit, the infiltrate stratagem, and the blade of the hydra are all good reasons to play AL.
Well that and forcing your opponent to play wack-a-mole with your characters via I am Alpharius.
That really only works if you have 3 or more characters running around to be fair.
Considering that most of our characters provide good synergy for the army, running around at least three isn't really a hard choice. I mean a DP, Lord and Sorceror are all good choices and that's three right there off the bat.
Having options makes decision making so much more difficult lol.
So I'm still trying to come up with a decent army build around my Spartan. It's become trickier as I've been definitely wanting a Daemon Prince in my army, and I've now noticed that the DeathGuard and ThousandSons Princes are both significantly better than the vanilla one, for the same points cost. Feels weird to get a vanilla prince for the same points that's just worse.
Anyway -
So the difficulty I'm having is finding a balance for troops. I wan't to make an elite army with minimal model count, which means having to be very picky with my troops choices for detachments. If I go with Alpha Legion for example, and fill my spartan with Berserkers, I'd still need at least 3x10 conscripts eating up 120pts in order to fulfill requirements.
This unfortunately limits me a bit. The best two options i've come up with -
Death Guard Spartan:
7 Plague Marines
7 Plague Marines
3 Deathshroud Terminators
2 Foul Blightspawn
1 Lord
1 Sorcerer
Huge Points Sink! But the DP flying beside it can give it Miasma for -1 to hit, -2 with Smoke if I want to. Leaves me a few points for some other units like Maulerfiends/Decimators for other threats. If it gets into close range, the outpouring units will be throwing out a lot of nasty grenades and flamers. Fills out 2 of my troops choices, so only need a squad of cultists or pox walkers.
Alternative DG Spartan -
10 Plague Marines
10 Poxwalkers
Foul Blightspawn
Typhus
Lord
Fair bit cheaper, but the poxwalkers obviously aren't in the same league as Deathshroud. But with Typhus around, and popping out right into the enemy's face without having to walk... might do something.
Potent units in general, and is possibly the more well rounded spartan loadout. However this means a much worse Daemon Prince, and more points spent on troops taxes. (I'd probably be Alpha Legion (Nurgle or Slaanesh, giving spartan -1 to hit or a 5+ FnP with psychic prince) for fluff, but none of the legion traits really help with this list much. Could be Emp.children for noise marine troops though.)
Brymm wrote: The DPs are priced that way (I believe) is because the generic CSM ones get a Legion Trait.
That aside, the DG one with Disgustingly Resilient seems a lot better than any of the CSM ones.
Interesting, I know the codex ones get a legion trait, but I'd assumed that the DG and TS ones also got their legion traits. But I looked closer, and while the TS legion trait affects all PSYKER units, their Prince isn't actually a PSYKER keyword unit (I would have expected it to be, but I never actually checked).
So it seems to be:
DG = Disgustingly Resilient, Plague Spewer option
Vanilla = Best options are probably -1 to hit over 12"?, Warp Bolter Option
TS = 4++ save, 1 extra psychic power.
So TS seems the best, DG still pretty good, Vanilla is a little more customisable with their choice of psychic powers depending on if nurgle/tzeentch/slaanesh.
Tzeentch has great synergy with obliterators, since a tzeentch daemon prince can give obliterators reroll wounds and hits, and a second votl as a psychic power. Before the beta rules, five sets of obliterators were completely broken like that and would table people turn two
Captyn_Bob wrote: The psykers keyword mistake has been corrected in the faq
Oh wow... so the TS daemon prince gets 4++, Two Powers, AND a legion trait. For the same price as a vanilla Prince, which gets just a trait.
And the DG Prince doesn't get a trait at all, or two powers, but gets a 5+++ instead of a 4++ which is at least comparable.
What a mess.
He can use the trait if you're buying him a range weapon. DG ones get the Plague Spewer on top of having access to the Warp Bolter right?
Death Guard trait only works on INFANTRY and Helbrutes. As far as I can see it's never been errata'd to include the Prince, who isn't an infantry model.
Also doesn't have a warp bolter option, only the plague spewer.
Edit: Though as the spewer is a flamer, it doesn't matter that he gets -1 to hit with it if he moves anyway, it's just a wasted trait on him.
lindsay40k wrote: Is Horticulous planting trees midfield T1 so Nurgle Daemons (notably, Daemon engines) can advance & charge T2 dead?
The only thing that died was alpha striking via deep strike or other coming in from reserves (so any ability that removes a unit and redeploys them via reserves) on turn 1. Anything that hits on turn 2 or later (or hits from being on the table at the start of turn 1) is still valid.
Speaking back to the trouble of too many options is my attempts on trying to make a list that balances melee (to take advantage of the Dark Raiders trait) and shooting (to crack armour and help thin hordes). I'm considering running Chosen with flamers and chainswords, a big unit of Spawn with MoK, Raptors with flamers and MoK/IoW (to thin chaffe and cull the rest) as the core of my melee.
I'm thinking that even my CSM and Cultists may go melee and pistols paired with special weapons to support the units (flamers, meltas) while the rest is going to be focused on cracking armour, killing big stuff and hitting hordes.
Basically it's kind of a rainbow list and isn't likely competitive, but I think it could lead to being a fun list for local tournaments and shouldn't be too easily broken by future FAQs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I forgot the Talon DP with Wings, MoS, Warp Bolter and Elixer with the Flames of Spite warlord trait. Basically he rushes up the board, can pop the bolter off to reach out and touch things while throwing out wounds and possibly even mortal wounds onto things.
Yeah, but to advance & charge on T2, your Nurgle Daemon unit’s need to start T2 within 7” of a tree. That requires they either keep holding a 7” bargepole poking a model in your DZ, or else Horticulous plants one in the middle of the table T1. AFAICT the latter is disallowed under the new DS rules.
...thinking on it, the 7” bargepole isn’t *that* difficult to implement. Defilers and Fiends have a large footprint, Plague Drones can conga line.
...huh. Chaos, Daemon, Nurgle keywords. Can’t take it in a fortification network with bunkers and that. That’s annoying.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, but to advance & charge on T2, your Nurgle Daemon unit’s need to start T2 within 7” of a tree. That requires they either keep holding a 7” bargepole poking a model in your DZ, or else Horticulous plants one in the middle of the table T1. AFAICT the latter is disallowed under the new DS rules.
...thinking on it, the 7” bargepole isn’t *that* difficult to implement. Defilers and Fiends have a large footprint, Plague Drones can conga line.
...huh. Chaos, Daemon, Nurgle keywords. Can’t take it in a fortification network with bunkers and that. That’s annoying.
Aren't the Bunkers and whatnot <UNALIGNED>, letting them sync with Chaos?
Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).
So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.
However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."
And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?
Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).
Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.
Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...
I was listening to a podcast recently and I heard an interesting claim: to make melee CSM effective we need to put most (around 75%) of our points into melee options and basically throw all that at the opponent while the rest hangs back to handle the support stuff (like Lascannon Havocs to help crack armour).
Anyone agree with this, or have different thoughts?
ClockworkZion wrote: I was listening to a podcast recently and I heard an interesting claim: to make melee CSM effective we need to put most (around 75%) of our points into melee options and basically throw all that at the opponent while the rest hangs back to handle the support stuff (like Lascannon Havocs to help crack armour).
Anyone agree with this, or have different thoughts?
So... To make melee good, you need to invest in melee?
Honestly I'm not sure what's supposed to be so interesting or unusual about that claim.
ClockworkZion wrote: I was listening to a podcast recently and I heard an interesting claim: to make melee CSM effective we need to put most (around 75%) of our points into melee options and basically throw all that at the opponent while the rest hangs back to handle the support stuff (like Lascannon Havocs to help crack armour).
Anyone agree with this, or have different thoughts?
So... To make melee good, you need to invest in melee?
Honestly I'm not sure what's supposed to be so interesting or unusual about that claim.
I think he's perhaps saying the opposite, that perhaps to make melee work you have to invest a sizeable amount into shooting.
Which I think is a fair statement. Most Melee can still really benefit from range support, and vice versa
New player here with recap of my 3rd "casual" tournament (PL cap, no FW). I had fun and I'll post in spoiler my recap and lessons learned, but feel free to skip if you're not interested!
Played Alpha Legion for first real time with 3 helbrute, lord, sorc, DP, 10 berzerkers 10 tac 20 cultists 2 rhino and heldrake.
Spoiler:
So, things I learned yesterday from my games against people who play a lot more than me:
First, and most disturbing, even people that say they play ITC and NOVA, and the store's staff that were TO's, didn't understand the sequencing of combat c activation. In my first game, I activated my berzerkers and asked the opponent, a player who said he competes in regular competitive tourneys, if he was familiar with berzerkers. He said it's been a while but played against them, I reminded them that they can fight twice a turn. I activate, pile in, roll dice, and then go to consolidate before second activation. Wait, he says, you don't consolidate until the end of the phase. I'm like naw bro you consolidate as the last step in a fight sequence it's not part of the phase. I pull out my battle primer to show him the order of operations, he's still convinced consolidating is at the end of fight phase. Call for judge. We pose our question and they don't know how the sequential works. Ask to see rules. I show them the berzerkers rule and they think fight means roll dice to attack 2x. I'm like naw bros here's the order. Any chaos player will tell you the same, and any player should know consolidating is part of activation. They ask for rulebook I'm like i don't have rulebook but the rule is here in the primer. They go to Internet to check FAQ. 20 minutes later they see no FAQ and decide to rule in my favor because they can't prove me wrong for obvious reason and say they think that wasn't GW's intention.
Moving right along, the opponent was a good player with a tough list. 1 las pred and 2 Baal preds he luckily put forward to peek around big center of table LOS blocking terrain. I was able to get my DP on 2 of them round 2 and get 1 down to bottom profile and tie up the other 2 for the rest of the game. Also luckily he couldn't use killshot stratagem as the strat names Predator profile, not keyword. Also, my bad ass lord with the murder sword 1-shotted his Slamguinius thanks to Death to the False Emperor. Other lessons learned that game: I messed up and tried to kill a Lieutenant instead of the scouts and size the objective from him, mistake, I love a 3++ chaos lord from Tzeentch's spell, and if my helbrute survives turn 1 it is well worth its points in dmg output, scarecrowing, and as a durable target closer than my characters.
It was also my first tourney using Alpha Legion rules instead of Word Bearers. A significant change in play style even without infiltrating anything, and the -1 to be hit at ranged was so incredibly helpful at keeping me moving up the board and messing with their "math" in their head with my dudes surviving what "should have killed them!" May Lorgar forgive me.
My second opponent was Thousand Sons and had an impenetrable setup with 3 predators upon a hill with an exalted sorcerer in the middle, 30 tzangor and 40 cultists around them and between me and them, a shaman and sorcerer on disk and 10 Enlightened with bows beside. And 10 rubrics in the Webway. the mission gave credit for killing a unit first turn and there was a huge building in the middle of the board (seek and destroy deployment) so i couldn't reach him turn 1 and nothing was really viable. I got first turn and tried to pop his nearest pred with my brutes and heldrake and havoc launchers but just didn't have the punch. Also trying not to give up a backfield Webway gate didn't warptime me berzerker rhino forward. I managed to kill about 10 cultists with what couldn't reach the pred and dove ny drake into them and the tzangor just to keep them busy, and maybe force him to blow CP on Bravery and i forgot 1KS couldn't Tide (couldn't touch the Enlightened or preds). His turn put out a lot of hurt with killshot and the enlightened. I killed 1 pred turn 2 but the rest of the game was a bloodbath, luckily i got death hex off on his tzangor that surrounded my prince and sorcerer and helbrute, fried chicken man for dinner.
Unfortunately the Enlightened were WAY better in melee than anticipated and they got my prince and brute, but not the huge point gain from slay The warlord thanks to I am Alpharius. That trait is so useful for denying warlord kills, even with the random tertiary trait. Lessons learned: that 6" increased range on casts makes a well-screened sorcerer really hard to deal with directly, but also let my sorcerer stay out of deny range to counter with my own spells; 1KS has some very Nurgly spells with the D3 healing and -1 to hit from range; and the opponent was very nice and a sportsman but was measuring tzangor movement from front of base to back of base getting that extra 32mm in movement until I pointed it out and thereafter he was very careful with every model's movement and I felt a little bad because he was so nice and it probably didn't even matter.
My third opponent was someone who wrecked me in my previous tourney, then playing Steel Legion and now playing Blood Angels with 15 Scout snipers, 15 Death Company, Slammy, Storms talon and raven, librarian and librarian dread, Ave some others. I knew going in that the guy is smart about playing for objectives, kill priority, and map awareness, and he had me really threatened going in to deployment with the deep strikers and snipers. I could sort of screen but with dawn of war deployment he had lots of room to Wings into my DZ. He deployed his Slamguinius in the back corner for that stratagem, and i infiltrated 10 cultists up front to try to bait some snipers or DC. He put all sniper shots into my warlord Prince and thanks to the Hydra trait only dealt 1 mortal wound. He did indeed send 5 DC into my infiltrators (RIP) instead of my rhinos or brutes. Turn 1 he Wings'd Slamguinius near my Las brute and 1- shotted him (RIP) but didn't do much else. My turn 1 my Murdersword Lord failed his charge into Slamguinius but my autogun cultists made it in! RIP 3 cultists. Took down most of storm talon with shooting and heldrake claws, 3 of the exposed DC. Kept screen in place for turn 2 DS. Turn 2 he Wings'd his captain to other side of field and failed his charges into a helbrute and didn't deep strike his guys, kept trying to snipe but not having much luck with the -1. Got the 3rd brute down to 1 wound. DC remaining killed my very brave cultists down to a man, i used Bravery and on My turn 2 Tide to get to he far corner 3rd level of cover to sit and throw rocks at snipers and finished off DC with Lord. Killed Slamguinius with my DP and got warlord kill. Took down Talon but couldn't dislodge scouts. Turn 3 10 more DC, 5 S.Guard and librarian and dread dropped on me. RIP my tac boys but the terminator sorcerer and lord did some wicked work fighting back in melee. Turn 4 he focuses everything in my HQs and gets all my characters but invested everything into that, and kills cultists so i gave 1 remaining in his DZ for linebreaker. My turn i disembark my berzerkers who clear up my entire backfield, shuffle my one remaining brute and rhino up to charge his scouts. All in all it was super close the whole game and I feel i fought well. Lessons learned: blood angels can fail their charge especially if they are trying 4 9" charges at a time; denying librarian dread spells are Gamechanging; and while a list can be intimidating and an opponent's tactics sound, things can not go according to their plan too.
At the end of the day I finished with 3 Draws with each of those games me scoring more "battle points" than my opponent [just not enough to move from draw to win per mission parameters], and felt great about that because I usually lose to blood angels, felt I had weaker lists but played smarter, and had fun. It's also my first time leaving a tourney with no losses which to me is very fulfilling. Also, my opponents were nice and good sports with great paint jobs (#3 had hand-painted angels on his storm raven wing that were awesome). I feel a bit dirty about running as AL instead of WB but my pride will heal and 9th edition will probably be here soon enough.
First, and most disturbing, even people that say they play ITC and NOVA, and the store's staff that were TO's, didn't understand the sequencing of combat c activation. In my first game, I activated my berzerkers and asked the opponent, a player who said he competes in regular competitive tourneys, if he was familiar with berzerkers. He said it's been a while but played against them, I reminded them that they can fight twice a turn. I activate, pile in, roll dice, and then go to consolidate before second activation. Wait, he says, you don't consolidate until the end of the phase. I'm like naw bro you consolidate as the last step in a fight sequence it's not part of the phase. I pull out my battle primer to show him the order of operations, he's still convinced consolidating is at the end of fight phase. Call for judge. We pose our question and they don't know how the sequential works. Ask to see rules. I show them the berzerkers rule and they think fight means roll dice to attack 2x. I'm like naw bros here's the order. Any chaos player will tell you the same, and any player should know consolidating is part of activation. They ask for rulebook I'm like i don't have rulebook but the rule is here in the primer. They go to Internet to check FAQ. 20 minutes later they see no FAQ and decide to rule in my favor because they can't prove me wrong for obvious reason and say they think that wasn't GW's intention.
This has come up for me before. Exactly where is the rules for it written so I know where to reference? Thanks
Niiru wrote: Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).
So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.
However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."
And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?
Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).
Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.
Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...
They are troops inside of a World Eaters and Emp. Children Detachment. If you put Zerkers into an emp children detachment, they are still elites.
Niiru wrote: Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).
So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.
However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."
And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?
Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).
Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.
Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...
They are troops inside of a World Eaters and Emp. Children Detachment. If you put Zerkers into an emp children detachment, they are still elites.
I agree that that's the intention of the rule, but it's not RAW (as far as I can see).
I doubt I'll ever play it like that, but I just found it interesting.
ClockworkZion wrote: I was listening to a podcast recently and I heard an interesting claim: to make melee CSM effective we need to put most (around 75%) of our points into melee options and basically throw all that at the opponent while the rest hangs back to handle the support stuff (like Lascannon Havocs to help crack armour).
Anyone agree with this, or have different thoughts?
So... To make melee good, you need to invest in melee?
Honestly I'm not sure what's supposed to be so interesting or unusual about that claim.
It was more that if you're going to try and be effective in melee you really have to go fairly heavy in the melee options, though not 100% as melee will still need support stuff (I mean Berserkers are good, but Havocs with Lascannons will crack Land Raiders better).
I usually see most melee options being a single hammer unit in lists (maybe two hammers) so I was just curious what other people's takes on the claim were.
Niiru wrote: Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).
So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.
However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."
And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?
Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).
Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.
Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...
They are troops inside of a World Eaters and Emp. Children Detachment. If you put Zerkers into an emp children detachment, they are still elites.
I agree that that's the intention of the rule, but it's not RAW (as far as I can see).
I doubt I'll ever play it like that, but I just found it interesting.
From the FAQ:
"Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh
keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion,
and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle
keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children
Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World
Eaters Legion.’"
So worldeaters can only have mark of Khorne. And :
"Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World
Eaters Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’
Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of
Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead
of Elites.’"
World eaters get berzerkers as troops. For it to be an worldeater detachment it has to be MoK. Sonics get MoS. And everything in a Emperors children detachment has to have MoS so no berzerkers.
To get Legion trait in a detachment everything has to be the same legion (Codex page 157). Since the detachment won't read as either WE or EC it wont get the legiontrait and therefor cant use either as troops.
Niiru wrote: Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).
So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.
However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."
And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?
Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).
Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.
Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...
They are troops inside of a World Eaters and Emp. Children Detachment. If you put Zerkers into an emp children detachment, they are still elites.
I agree that that's the intention of the rule, but it's not RAW (as far as I can see).
I doubt I'll ever play it like that, but I just found it interesting.
From the FAQ:
"Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh
keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion,
and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle
keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children
Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World
Eaters Legion.’"
So worldeaters can only have mark of Khorne. And :
"Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World
Eaters Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’
Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of
Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead
of Elites.’"
World eaters get berzerkers as troops. For it to be an worldeater detachment it has to be MoK. Sonics get MoS. And everything in a Emperors children detachment has to have MoS so no berzerkers.
To get Legion trait in a detachment everything has to be the same legion (Codex page 157). Since the detachment won't read as either WE or EC it wont get the legiontrait and therefor cant use either as troops.
None of that prevents what I said though. The detachment can be:
All that FAQ says is that you can't have a Slaanesh World Eater, or a Khorne emperors children. This only prevents you from using a Khorne specific stratagem on the Children, and a Slaanesh psychic power on a world eater, which we already knew.
The detachment would still be battleforged though, and they'd still count as troops with ObSec, and you'd still get 5CP out of it. Nowhere does it say that a -detachment- must be world eaters for Berzerkers to be troops, only that the unit of Berzerkers itself must be World Eaters. No rule says that all units in a detachment have to be EC in order for it to be an EC detachment.
You're mixing up the detachment rules with the legion trait rules, which I already said this detachment would get no legion traits. It would get stratagems, psychic powers, and berzerkers/noise marines as troops though, just no traits.
All that FAQ says is that you can't have a Slaanesh World Eater, or a Khorne emperors children. This only prevents you from using a Khorne specific stratagem on the Children, and a Slaanesh psychic power on a world eater, which we already knew.
The detachment would still be battleforged though, and they'd still count as troops with ObSec, and you'd still get 5CP out of it. Nowhere does it say that a -detachment- must be world eaters for Berzerkers to be troops, only that the unit of Berzerkers itself must be World Eaters. No rule says that all units in a detachment have to be EC in order for it to be an EC detachment.
You're mixing up the detachment rules with the legion trait rules, which I already said this detachment would get no legion traits. It would get stratagems, psychic powers, and berzerkers/noise marines as troops though, just no traits.
Ah, I think you are right. As you wrote somewhere else, it's most likely not the intention but nothing in the wording prevents it.
All that FAQ says is that you can't have a Slaanesh World Eater, or a Khorne emperors children. This only prevents you from using a Khorne specific stratagem on the Children, and a Slaanesh psychic power on a world eater, which we already knew.
The detachment would still be battleforged though, and they'd still count as troops with ObSec, and you'd still get 5CP out of it. Nowhere does it say that a -detachment- must be world eaters for Berzerkers to be troops, only that the unit of Berzerkers itself must be World Eaters. No rule says that all units in a detachment have to be EC in order for it to be an EC detachment.
You're mixing up the detachment rules with the legion trait rules, which I already said this detachment would get no legion traits. It would get stratagems, psychic powers, and berzerkers/noise marines as troops though, just no traits.
Ah, I think you are right. As you wrote somewhere else, it's most likely not the intention but nothing in the wording prevents it.
Yeh, to be honest I doubt I'd ever play it like that, as I tend to play RAI not RAW, I just found it interesting. Would avoid me having to paint up 30 cultists as a troop tax though.
FWIW the detachment in this case would be a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment and totally legit, and there’s nothing to stop an IMPERIUM army running an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment of ULTRAMARINES and BLACK TEMPLARS - wouldn’t have the same extreme battlefield role malarkey, but it’s there
lindsay40k wrote: FWIW the detachment in this case would be a HERETIC ASTARTES detachment and totally legit, and there’s nothing to stop an IMPERIUM army running an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment of ULTRAMARINES and BLACK TEMPLARS - wouldn’t have the same extreme battlefield role malarkey, but it’s there
And we all love a bit of malarky!
Another question for the day - Is there anything in the Renegades and Heretics lists which is actually worth bringing compared to the equivalents in CSM? There's a few options I like from a fluff standpoint of renegades, but I'm not sure there's anything that's actually any better than just standard cultists or marines.
I love Running Renegades alongside my Iron Warriors, but infantry wise other than Stalker Mauraders, the Chaos Codex has them licked. I bring them for fun though.
However: Leman Russes, the Various Artillery platforms and the Hellhounds are amazing with our Codex Toys.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: I love Running Renegades alongside my Iron Warriors, but infantry wise other than Stalker Mauraders, the Chaos Codex has them licked. I bring them for fun though.
However: Leman Russes, the Various Artillery platforms and the Hellhounds are amazing with our Codex Toys.
I have to say, a Hellhound has me interested. The Inferno Cannon on it is what I wish the Hellforged Predator had access to.
So, dumb question (haven’t played 8th yet, despite having most of the rulebooks); can I run Magnus, Mortarion and a renegade knight (until the other Daemon Primarch(s) come out as a three LoW detachment? Do I need anything else in there? Other than filling up points.
timetowaste85 wrote: So, dumb question (haven’t played 8th yet, despite having most of the rulebooks); can I run Magnus, Mortarion and a renegade knight (until the other Daemon Primarch(s) come out as a three LoW detachment? Do I need anything else in there? Other than filling up points.
You cannot because the knight lacks a common keyword since Chaos doesn't count. He's not heretic astares, though I wish he was since I wanted to do something similar. Now you ~ can ~ run those two and a Lord of Skulls, which I've been deeply considering.
Ok. Can he be a separate “allies” detachment, and be his own LoW? Or is it flat out impossible to have the Knight in the list with the two Daemon Primarchs?
I actually have the end goal plan of running all 4 Daemon Primarchs when the last two hit. I don’t care how tough or weak it might be, I just really want to run a Daemon Primarch of each of the four Ruinous Powers, all working together. While it would be kind of recent fluff breaking, it would be a nice return to their previous brotherhood.
Fluffy question - if you were going for semi-competitive what models / units work best with skarbrands ability? I understand the easy answer is "don't bring skarbrand" but lets assume the list is built around him as a cornerstone. Bloodletters look appetizing in maybe a patrol with skarbrand(?) so the reroll to failed charge rolls. Taking a full batallion of 90 letters seems overkill (as you need to banner and deepstrike every unit) and the charge reroll looks crucial.
I'm trying to make a list around the extra attacks skarbrand gives with the 8 inch aura, i realize he must deepstrike and also probably needs the invuls strat to have even a prayer of surviving one turn - but the 8 inch maybe can be used.
To add a little more - i was thinking about taking plagues with spoilpox and a DP - with virulent and the extra attack - plus the extra attacks on a 6 with spoilpox - the plagues could do some damage
Just had a 2500 point game against IG with Slaaneshi daemons backed by a dual thermal cannon knight. That knight was killing at least one tank a turn and soaking a ton of damage. Sadly he got first turn and wiped most of my daemons, but that knight did work
timetowaste85 wrote: Ok. Can he be a separate “allies” detachment, and be his own LoW? Or is it flat out impossible to have the Knight in the list with the two Daemon Primarchs?
I actually have the end goal plan of running all 4 Daemon Primarchs when the last two hit. I don’t care how tough or weak it might be, I just really want to run a Daemon Primarch of each of the four Ruinous Powers, all working together. While it would be kind of recent fluff breaking, it would be a nice return to their previous brotherhood.
Put the Knight into an Super Heavy Auxillary detachment separate from the Primarchs.
You could put two Knights with (say) Mortarion into a Super Heavy detachment if you mark the Knights up for Nurgle (thus giving them a keyword to share), but since ol' Rick and Morty (as the Internet as dubbed their combo) don't share gods, you can't use marks to fix the problem.
Well I feel right silly about the Mark thing. I guess I've been staring at other chaos vehicles too much and just assumed that a knight that fell to Chaos could be aligned with one of the gods.
Then again, the Renegade Knight rules are just an index so proper rules might flip that later.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Yeah, and they could take marks in the last edition, so it wasn't an unreasonable assumption. One wonders why they can't this time around. *shrug*
Considering how little we have in terms of options I guess it's not too much of a surprise, but it's definitely an inconvenience.
Can someone please clarify for me that Obliterators in a CSM (all mark of nurgle) detachment can still be in a battle forged army with and epidemius Nurgle Daemon detachment and the only downside is that they won't benefit from the stratagems?
Or do oblits no longer count for epidemius' count because they don't have the Daemon faction keyword?
You could put two Knights with (say) Mortarion into a Super Heavy detachment if you mark the Knights up for Nurgle (thus giving them a keyword to share), but since ol' Rick and Morty (as the Internet as dubbed their combo) don't share gods, you can't use marks to fix the problem.
you can play Morty+Magnus+LOS in same superheavy they share heretic astartes kw
lucas wrote: Can someone please clarify for me that Obliterators in a CSM (all mark of nurgle) detachment can still be in a battle forged army with and epidemius Nurgle Daemon detachment and the only downside is that they won't benefit from the stratagems?
Or do oblits no longer count for epidemius' count because they don't have the Daemon faction keyword?
You can take NURGLE as a detachment keyword, you are correct that mixing daemons and CSM units will mean it doesn’t unlock any Stratagems.
Faction keywords become regular keywords once the battle begins, so Oblits are indeed NURGLE DAEMON units. They’ll boost Epi, and even get rerolls off a Daemon Prince that isn’t HERETIC ASTARTES.
timetowaste85 wrote: LoS? Lord of Skulls, I assume? I’ve been considering one for years. Hmmm...worthwhile to run the 3?
yes is lord of skull, you can run him or Kitan engine cheaper. I dont know if it is worthwile, but guess lot of "below top" lists will have hard times deal with those 3.
Faction keywords become regular keywords once the battle begins
means? faction kw is faction kw dont understand what means become regular (does a regular kw ever exist?) once battle begins, for me is no sense what you say
ClockworkZion wrote: I guess I've been staring at other chaos vehicles too much and just assumed that a knight that fell to Chaos could be aligned with one of the gods..
I believe the Throne Mechanicum only permits the worship of Chaos Undivided; getting the different personalities that make up the collective consciousness that sits within the Throne to agree on worshipping one sole chaos god must be frightfully difficult.
On the tactical front, there was some discussion some pages ago post faq about using bikes. Just wondering if folks have been finding them useful?
Bloodletters have the KHORNE and DAEMON faction keywords
A unit of Warp Talons has the WORLD EATERS and HERETIC ASTARTES and Mark of KHORNE faction keywords and the DAEMON keyword
The Warp Talons cannot be part of a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment because they don’t have the DAEMON faction keyword
The Bloodletters cannot be part of a WORLD EATERS detachment as they don’t have that faction keyword
Both units could be part of a KHORNE Detachment if we don’t care about traits, Stratagems, etc
A Bloodthirster and WORD BEARERS Daemon Prince of KHORNE have auras that affect KHORNE DAEMON units, which could benefit both the Warp Talons and Bloodletters
The distinctions are particularly important for units like Epidemius and Gnarlmaws and I was trying to clear things up for @lucas
Has anyone picked up a termite yet? I’ve been thinking about it (among other things) and it seems really dang solid. Only 4 points more than a Dreadclaw, but doesn’t seem to lose much in comparison if deep striking it. Can shoot, carry 2 more models, and is T8.
The Dreadclaw looks way cooler, can fly over stuff, and can move farther. Better in some ways, I s’pose, if starting it on the table, but not so much that I wouldn’t just take a Rhino. I guess I’d use my Dreadclaws for dropping brutes/contemptors and leave the termites to ferry troops?
Bloodletters have the KHORNE and DAEMON faction keywords
A unit of Warp Talons has the WORLD EATERS and HERETIC ASTARTES and Mark of KHORNE faction keywords and the DAEMON keyword
The Warp Talons cannot be part of a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment because they don’t have the DAEMON faction keyword
The Bloodletters cannot be part of a WORLD EATERS detachment as they don’t have that faction keyword
Both units could be part of a KHORNE Detachment if we don’t care about traits, Stratagems, etc
A Bloodthirster and WORD BEARERS Daemon Prince of KHORNE have auras that affect KHORNE DAEMON units, which could benefit both the Warp Talons and Bloodletters
The distinctions are particularly important for units like Epidemius and Gnarlmaws and I was trying to clear things up for @lucas
yes that's obviously clear, i was wondering what you meant with "it become regular kw after the battle begins" a faction kw remain a faction kw, a generic kw remain a generic kw, nothing change after the battle begins. Nurgle obliterators are simply NURGLE DEMONS cause they have both keywords... nothing more nothing less.
Niiru wrote: Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).
So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.
However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."
And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?
Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).
Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.
Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...
This works, but losing out on legion traits is quite a big deal.
Bloodletters have the KHORNE and DAEMON faction keywords
A unit of Warp Talons has the WORLD EATERS and HERETIC ASTARTES and Mark of KHORNE faction keywords and the DAEMON keyword
The Warp Talons cannot be part of a KHORNE DAEMON Detachment because they don’t have the DAEMON faction keyword
The Bloodletters cannot be part of a WORLD EATERS detachment as they don’t have that faction keyword
Both units could be part of a KHORNE Detachment if we don’t care about traits, Stratagems, etc
A Bloodthirster and WORD BEARERS Daemon Prince of KHORNE have auras that affect KHORNE DAEMON units, which could benefit both the Warp Talons and Bloodletters
The distinctions are particularly important for units like Epidemius and Gnarlmaws and I was trying to clear things up for @lucas
yes that's obviously clear, i was wondering what you meant with "it become regular kw after the battle begins" a faction kw remain a faction kw, a generic kw remain a generic kw, nothing change after the battle begins. Nurgle obliterators are simply NURGLE DEMONS cause they have both keywords... nothing more nothing less.
Pretty sure Lindsay means that there is no such this as a 'faction' keyword or generic 'keyword' as soon as the game starts. Once the game is in progress, they all become just 'keywords' as far as any of the current rules stand.
The separation of Faction from Generic is only really relevant for certain rules that affect army formation I think, such as detachments and traits.
Niiru wrote: Had a thought today, which probably isn't particularly unique, but I haven't seen it really come up much (probably because CSM are fairly unique in their rules for Troops).
So a Death Guard detachment with Plague Marines has the PM's as troops. And an Emperors Children detachment etc Noise Marine are troops. Same for Berzerkers and Rubrics.
However, the way the faq is written - "The Battlefield Role of Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead of Elites."
And this would be a Battallion, netting 5 command points, and 3 troops choices. And its Battle-Forged (I think?) so they also get the CSM objective secured Despoilers of the Galaxy thing?
Seems this -only- would work with Noise and Berzerkers, because there's no such rule for Plagues and Rubrics (because they have their own codex, and they're only troops if from their own codex).
Kinda thinking I'm missing something though, as I'm sure this isn't -meant- to work this way. But it's a tempting way to insert some decent units in an army and get 5CP, without a cultists tax. All I'd lose is Legion Traits for these units, but that's no big loss. All stratagems would still work fine.
Edit:
Not saying this is a great idea, especially not in all cases... but if you're planning to take Noise Marines and Berzerkers in a detachment anyway (and a HQ or 2 if you want the bonus CP's), then doing this loses you the legion trait for these units... but also saves you 120 points in cultist tax. I don't think I'd spend 120 points on the Emperors Children legion trait personally, maybe the Alpha Legion trait is worth that much, but you can have 8 extra marine bodies on the table for those points...
This works, but losing out on legion traits is quite a big deal.
Maybe for the Berzerkers. The EC trait is pretty lacklustre, I would say that 120 points saved plus 5 extra CP is far more valuable.
Maybe for the Berzerkers. The EC trait is pretty lacklustre, I would say that 120 points saved plus 5 extra CP is far more valuable.
I would argue that actually. I think the EC trait is actually one of the better ones available. Probably not as good as Alpha Legion, but at least on the same level as Renegades. Its not something that comes up often, but it has a really big impact on games when it does. When I play armies that are not EC, often times I will want to spend 2 Command Points to interrupt my opponents fight phase, and have a key unit swing. When you consider that if you are playing EC you interrupt automatically with your Prince / Infantry / Bikers, you are effectively saving 2 Command Points every time you would have spent those points to interrupt with any other faction. That is pretty great if even comes up just one time in a game- thats an entire additional Endless Cacophony, or 2 applications of Veterans of the Long War!
Even just look back at your games. Every time you have used or wanted to use the 2 CP combat interrupt strategem on a Marine, Bike, or Prince... if you were playing EC that would have been free.
Maybe for the Berzerkers. The EC trait is pretty lacklustre, I would say that 120 points saved plus 5 extra CP is far more valuable.
I would argue that actually. I think the EC trait is actually one of the better ones available. Probably not as good as Alpha Legion, but at least on the same level as Renegades. Its not something that comes up often, but it has a really big impact on games when it does. When I play armies that are not EC, often times I will want to spend 2 Command Points to interrupt my opponents fight phase, and have a key unit swing. When you consider that if you are playing EC you interrupt automatically with your Prince / Infantry / Bikers, you are effectively saving 2 Command Points every time you would have spent those points to interrupt with any other faction. That is pretty great if even comes up just one time in a game- thats an entire additional Endless Cacophony, or 2 applications of Veterans of the Long War!
Even just look back at your games. Every time you have used or wanted to use the 2 CP combat interrupt strategem on a Marine, Bike, or Prince... if you were playing EC that would have been free.
Dont think that's a stratagem I've even considered worth using, let along actually spent 2 precious CP on it. I can see it being useful in specific lists, where your unit going first means you wiping out the opponents squad before they get a chance to do much/any damage. Otherwise you're just spending 2CP to do maybe one or two additional wounds in a fight, which is nowhere near worth it.
Though this is totally YMMV. If your list is geared up to make use of it then fine, same with the EC trait. Or if you're swimming in CP anyway. I struggle to have more than 9 CP in a list with Chaos though (and that's with the Chapter Approved buffs to CP), so spending almost a quarter of my CP on that wouldn't be very effective.
If you don't think combat inturrupts are useful, it's probobly because you arent playing combat armies. I think they're invaluable.
Swinging first with a prince or dread (or berserkers) can be a HUGE deal as those units can usually destroy or cripple whatever theyre fighting, but are also sorta flimsy themselves and can't suck up much damage.
ClockworkZion wrote: I guess I've been staring at other chaos vehicles too much and just assumed that a knight that fell to Chaos could be aligned with one of the gods..
I believe the Throne Mechanicum only permits the worship of Chaos Undivided; getting the different personalities that make up the collective consciousness that sits within the Throne to agree on worshipping one sole chaos god must be frightfully difficult.
On the tactical front, there was some discussion some pages ago post faq about using bikes. Just wondering if folks have been finding them useful?
I'd argue that the machine spirit (whose ego can, and sometimes does, overpower the ego of the pilot in machines like the knight) can push the knight towards a particular god (a machine that seeks to crush the enemy in melee can fall to Khorne for example) and that's not even getting into inevitable enslaving of daemons to serve as the machine spirit.
McGibs wrote: If you don't think combat inturrupts are useful, it's probobly because you arent playing combat armies. I think they're invaluable.
Swinging first with a prince or dread (or berserkers) can be a HUGE deal as those units can usually destroy or cripple whatever theyre fighting, but are also sorta flimsy themselves and can't suck up much damage.
It's not that I don't think they're useful, its just that I think 120 points and 5CP is likely to be MORE useful.
I'm no expert player though, I may well be wrong. I'm still throwing list ideas together, and EC and Alpha Legion are still both in the running as my legion choice for various reasons.
DG are so hard to ignore though, just because they actually have a lot more good units to play with.
I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.
I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.
I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.
I'm in a similar boat. Currently trying to find a solution that doesn't involve me running a DG detachment with an EC/AL detachment. The problem is the big tax on troops and HQ's to do this, so that you actually end up with a decent number of CP's. With the buffs, you really need at least one detachment to keep up with the number of CP's your opponent is likely to field.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.
I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.
I'm in a similar boat. Currently trying to find a solution that doesn't involve me running a DG detachment with an EC/AL detachment. The problem is the big tax on troops and HQ's to do this, so that you actually end up with a decent number of CP's. With the buffs, you really need at least one detachment to keep up with the number of CP's your opponent is likely to field.
I just can't make the basic CSM feel like they're pulling they're weight. Maybe it's the loss of stat buffs from taking marks, or the loss of the ability to buy extra attacks on regular guys without losing shooting options.....or maybe it's just how meh the Marine statline feels in 8th (especially with how the Primaris marine statline feels more like what Marines should like in this edition).
I WANT to like regular CSM, but in the end I keep looking at taking the starter box and using them as Chosen instead because I just find the balance point for the basic guys.
Heck, even the blandness of the Thousand Sons options have me more excited right now and I've only been pouring over their stuff lately because I've been looking for an excuse for yonks to build their models and with Kill Team I'm likely to pick up a box of both Rubrics and Goats. And I find it sad that a troop choice with three weapon choices is more exciting to field than the level of customization of the regular CSM, there is something wrong with basic CSM and I just can't pin down what needs to be fixed exactly to make them worth taking.
Maybe Chaos Primaris with extra spikes and tentacles. I don't know.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be quiet honest, as much as I want to blend Khorne and Slaanesh to make my Marines Malevolent fit the feel of the army (overkill via ranged weapons, scorn for noncombatants, being massive gakkers, ect, ect), I just don't feel like the whole mess works built around basic CSM which is a dissapointment because I rather like regular CSM. If they could take chainswords with bolters (maybe swapping out bolt pistols to do so) they'd at least fit better, but they just don't really seem to support melee enough and while they can do alright shooting they're just better options.
I'm almost thinking I should be running twin detachments of World Eaters and Emperor's Children to get troop cult units to better fill those roles respectively in an army, though I admit that's a fairly heavy investment to mix the two.
I'm in a similar boat. Currently trying to find a solution that doesn't involve me running a DG detachment with an EC/AL detachment. The problem is the big tax on troops and HQ's to do this, so that you actually end up with a decent number of CP's. With the buffs, you really need at least one detachment to keep up with the number of CP's your opponent is likely to field.
I just can't make the basic CSM feel like they're pulling they're weight. Maybe it's the loss of stat buffs from taking marks, or the loss of the ability to buy extra attacks on regular guys without losing shooting options.....or maybe it's just how meh the Marine statline feels in 8th (especially with how the Primaris marine statline feels more like what Marines should like in this edition).
I WANT to like regular CSM, but in the end I keep looking at taking the starter box and using them as Chosen instead because I just find the balance point for the basic guys.
Heck, even the blandness of the Thousand Sons options have me more excited right now and I've only been pouring over their stuff lately because I've been looking for an excuse for yonks to build their models and with Kill Team I'm likely to pick up a box of both Rubrics and Goats. And I find it sad that a troop choice with three weapon choices is more exciting to field than the level of customization of the regular CSM, there is something wrong with basic CSM and I just can't pin down what needs to be fixed exactly to make them worth taking.
Maybe Chaos Primaris with extra spikes and tentacles. I don't know.
They need to be able to take chainswords again, like grey hunters still can. (well, for the moment, who knows what their new codex will bring)
Heafstaag wrote: They need to be able to take chainswords again, like grey hunters still can. (well, for the moment, who knows what their new codex will bring)
I feel like it'd be a start, but I also feel like Marks should give a bonus again instead of just being a keyword. But I get that it's hard to balance stuff like that.
But yes, the ability to run a more all-rounder troop (even if we had to pay a point a model to buy that extra attack) would likely do a lot to make them worth taking on the table.
Swapping out for melee just doesn't cut it in this edition (at least not right now, maybe if they got a points drop or something), and if you take specials (namely flamers) to balance out the squad a little you lose some of your extra melee power.
Objective secured doesn't even really help them as much as I want it to as while being tougher does give a decent anvil to the army over cultists, they don't really bring enough to warrant more than MSU objective holders who don't die as fast as cultists do while you set up a turn two beta strike or combo up the board with other options with choppier units to really tear into things.
The Renegade chapter tactic actually makes this problem even worse as it denies VotLW, one of the few strategems that could make the unit better.
Basically there is just too much stacked against them at the moment to really make the basic marine worth taking as a troop.
Tacs at least can find a home. Space Marines have Scouts for going cheap, Tacticals for flexible weapon choices, and Primaris if they want Multiwounds.
There's at least a reason to bring tacs along because They have access to things that other Troops in their codex don't get and their troop choices don't really grow past a certain point.
But the regular Chaos Marine competes with Cultists in the same book And with cultists, Weapons don't really matter as much. 40 Autoguns That can redeploy and replenish to full strength at a whim to focus fire my opponent's table edge huggers? For 4 more points than 10 CSM with 2 Plasma?
My personal opinion is that you should be able to take chosen as troops, at least for black legion. I don't see how they are anymore overpowered than the other cult troops available to other legions.
The fact chaos marines are supposed to be veterans of the long war and have had thousands of years to pick up new weaponry or abilities just isn't reflected in the game...
So I'm sitting here looking at my 10 combi-plasma terminators and wondering if there's any way of using them post beta deep strike rules. I've used them in a couple of games where they drop on turn 2 and cast Prescience + Delightful Agonies instead of Warptime, but I find that unless they get into combat they are too expensive and get shot to pieces.
I was thinking of just running them as Alpha Legion and using the Forward Operatives stratagem, which would allow them to get into combat turn 1 and I could chuck DA on them as well. Has anyone tried this out yet? I'm thinking I might be better off with 2 units of plasma Chosen instead but I want to make my terminators work somehow.
Well slaanesh marked with endless cacophony they should drop a knight when they come in so they can certainly make their points back but that doesn't help how quickly they die.
I think they only ever really work as a suicide bomb and it's about causing maximum damage when they come in, anything else is a bonus. Personally I've given up taking terminators which is a shame, obliterators do what they do better I feel, but 10 terminators can get more wounds out of EC strat
Suicide Termi-drops have long been a tradition of the CSM codex (I recall that being the tactic in 5th edition for using them). That said, they can put out more firepower than they used to be able to and can do it more reliably (VotLW), but they still go down to a stiff breeze (stiff breeze being weight of fire since that works pretty effectively without wasting anti-tank weapons on the models), and plasma (which is better than it was back in 5th as well).
So basically, we have the same old trick for them, but with the added bonus of them doing it without scatter and with higher firepower than they used to have. I'd call that a good thing.
Beyond wishlisting base CSMs bring nothing to the table. Cultists bring numbers and objective holders while cult Marines actually specialized enough to be killy.
My feeling has always been that there shouldn't be a CSM entry and chosen should be the base troop profile. They would at least be a reason to take a non-cult marine choice.
buddha wrote: Beyond wishlisting base CSMs bring nothing to the table. Cultists bring numbers and objective holders while cult Marines actually specialized enough to be killy.
My feeling has always been that there shouldn't be a CSM entry and chosen should be the base troop profile. They would at least be a reason to take a non-cult marine choice.
Or, and this is crazy, we could buff base CSM to Chosen levels and then buff Chosen (and by extension Terminators) up a level on top of that (+1Ld and Attack, maybe another wound too, give them a special rule based on their mark (or lack of) to reflect the fact they're called Chosen for a reason....)...you know, make the CSM good but make the Chosen feel like a real elite option in an army that has a lot of specialized elites that overshadow the generalists too much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking back at the post we should probably kill the wishlisting before this thread goes further off topic. Basically to sum up that even to someone who wants to run regular CSM, they're just to lacking at the moment to see table time.
Which is frustrating because I don't really feel enthusiastic about Cultists. Largely because we don't have a good kit for them to customize the unit properly and partially because I wish we could drop some extra points for more interesting weapons instead of what they bring as is (like the option to run them like a corrupted PDF at least).
Abaddon303 wrote: My personal opinion is that you should be able to take chosen as troops, at least for black legion. I don't see how they are anymore overpowered than the other cult troops available to other legions.
The fact chaos marines are supposed to be veterans of the long war and have had thousands of years to pick up new weaponry or abilities just isn't reflected in the game...
Chosen should've been troops along with Havocs being given a Vet statline, and Cultists should be able to protect Infantry Space Marines from incoming fire like with Characters.
Skullphoquer wrote: I would not use CSM either.
But dont forget there is a black legion list outside which made it pretty well with 3*10 cms.
The only time i though about using CSM was in an AL list, like 2*20 CSM with forward operation/VotlW/endless kakaphonie.
Black Legion do give them a fair amount of bonuses since they seem to be geared towards mid-range shooting with decent survivability if in cover on an objective, but sadly they just don't really bring much else to the table. AL lets them take objectives early and hold them reasonably well but outside of getting a leadership buff (+2 if you go unmarked with the icon) or go AL for infiltrating and getting a -1 to hit at range early game/versus gunlines and the ability to double shoot with MoS I just don't see much that works for them over.
Is there a unit that is as strong and competitive as the Bloat Drone for the points?
Bloat Drone with Plaguespitters
- ~160points
- Short range, but pretty powerful shooting vs all kinds of infantry
- Tough, decent wounds, and FnP - FLY, so can escape combat and still shoot and charge that turn.
So the list I'm messing around with currently has two of them, because I haven't found anything else that fills the gap. Problem is, this means I have to run the whole detachment as death guard, which limits my options on other units.
Obviously have to compromise somewhere, but wondering if there are any units that can pull a similar amount of weight for the points, that wouldn't require a DG detachment to field.
(Helbrutes were a thought, but they don't seem as tough, or as powerful, and they can easily be tarpitted).
Is there a unit that is as strong and competitive as the Bloat Drone for the points?
Bloat Drone with Plaguespitters
- ~160points
- Short range, but pretty powerful shooting vs all kinds of infantry
- Tough, decent wounds, and FnP - FLY, so can escape combat and still shoot and charge that turn.
So the list I'm messing around with currently has two of them, because I haven't found anything else that fills the gap. Problem is, this means I have to run the whole detachment as death guard, which limits my options on other units.
Obviously have to compromise somewhere, but wondering if there are any units that can pull a similar amount of weight for the points, that wouldn't require a DG detachment to field.
(Helbrutes were a thought, but they don't seem as tough, or as powerful, and they can easily be tarpitted).
I would recommend running a NURGLE detachment, rather than going out of your way to form a Death Guard detachment. Characters rarely care about Legion Traits, Bloat Drones don't get them to begin with, and you could easily toss in a Spawn to round out a NURGLE Outrider Detachment on the cheap. You can even toss in a handful of Nurglings to shove back enemy infiltrators and deep strikers early in the game.
Is there a unit that is as strong and competitive as the Bloat Drone for the points?
Bloat Drone with Plaguespitters
- ~160points
- Short range, but pretty powerful shooting vs all kinds of infantry
- Tough, decent wounds, and FnP - FLY, so can escape combat and still shoot and charge that turn.
So the list I'm messing around with currently has two of them, because I haven't found anything else that fills the gap. Problem is, this means I have to run the whole detachment as death guard, which limits my options on other units.
Obviously have to compromise somewhere, but wondering if there are any units that can pull a similar amount of weight for the points, that wouldn't require a DG detachment to field.
(Helbrutes were a thought, but they don't seem as tough, or as powerful, and they can easily be tarpitted).
I would recommend running a NURGLE detachment, rather than going out of your way to form a Death Guard detachment. Characters rarely care about Legion Traits, Bloat Drones don't get them to begin with, and you could easily toss in a Spawn to round out a NURGLE Outrider Detachment on the cheap. You can even toss in a handful of Nurglings to shove back enemy infiltrators and deep strikers early in the game.
...I do currently have a daemons detachment with nurglings in it for that reason... I didnt think you could field Drones outside of a death guard detachment?
Is it actually 'legal' to run a Nurgle detachment? I'd need a HQ, which would probably have to be a Prince (my list runs two princes, so I'd need to slot them and their points in where I can), which -would- feel the pain of losing out on a legion trait.
Hey guys, I'm building mono-faction Alpha Legion, wouldn't mind some feedback. I'm trying to keep it pretty fluffy and as unwarped as possible. Here's a rough first attempt.
Basically Infiltrating the two Cultists blobs and the top Sorcerer if necessary, double shooting something prudent each turn, and just tying up the field with a mass of operatives while the PA gunline brings down anything heavier. Diabolic Strength for the guy with the Hydra Blade, and cause why not.
Not sure how good the Smash Lords are, or if I should be infiltrating an Apostle instead of one of them for the LD buff to cultists, but open to suggestions
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys, I'm building mono-faction Alpha Legion, wouldn't mind some feedback. I'm trying to keep it pretty fluffy and as unwarped as possible. Here's a rough first attempt.
Basically Infiltrating the two Cultists blobs and the top Sorcerer if necessary, double shooting something prudent each turn, and just tying up the field with a mass of operatives while the PA gunline brings down anything heavier. Diabolic Strength for the guy with the Hydra Blade, and cause why not.
Not sure how good the Smash Lords are, or if I should be infiltrating an Apostle instead of one of them for the LD buff to cultists, but open to suggestions
Looks fine, you could take an apostel and exaltet champion if you cut one of the jumpy lords and maybe make the other to a normal lord without jumppack.
SHUPPET wrote: Hey guys, I'm building mono-faction Alpha Legion, wouldn't mind some feedback. I'm trying to keep it pretty fluffy and as unwarped as possible. Here's a rough first attempt.
Basically Infiltrating the two Cultists blobs and the top Sorcerer if necessary, double shooting something prudent each turn, and just tying up the field with a mass of operatives while the PA gunline brings down anything heavier. Diabolic Strength for the guy with the Hydra Blade, and cause why not.
Not sure how good the Smash Lords are, or if I should be infiltrating an Apostle instead of one of them for the LD buff to cultists, but open to suggestions
Looks fine, you could take an apostel and exaltet champion if you cut one of the jumpy lords and maybe make the other to a normal lord without jumppack.
Nah, you want the Jump Packs for this situation. Can't the Champs take a Jump Pack too?
blackmage wrote: you can, if the other units in detachement shares at least 1 faction keyword (heretic astartes or Nurgle in this case)
I'd be interested to see if anyone can come up with a vague list that would be at least half decent and fun in a casual games environment (not competitive I expect, but decent is good enough!)
So the units I'd want in the list (including some conversion projects in progress):
1 Character (conversion - large, bulky) - Probably a Daemon Prince of Nurgle (on foot)
1 Character (conversion - flying, slim) - Flying Daemon Prince (any god), or maybe Ahriman/Sorcerer on Disk
1 Giant Chaos Spawn (Nurgle or Tzeentch)
2 Exalted Flamers
Units I'm considering:
2 Bloat Drones (or 2 Helbrutes, or 2 Contemptors, or 2 Decimators)
1 Leviathan Dreadnaught - 2xHellflamers, and some combination of Butcher Cannons and/or Soulburner Ribaudkins
1/2/3 units of 3 Nurglings
1 or 2 units of standard Flamers
Maybe Blue Scribes (seems a fun unit and an interesting model to make/convert)
Would be nice to find out that a fun/decent list could be made with the units I would like to actually create and paint haha. Low on bubblewrap I know, but I don't want to paint a horde of identical cultists or anything.
Thoughts on best loadouts for a Lord of Skulls? Assembling mine now, looking forward to playing it.
I’m thinking just the standard loadout. The sucker is expensive enough as it is, and I don’t think the auto hit weapons are worth it. Hades Gatling seems like the best choice of the gun arm options. Too bad I can’t take a second one for his belly gun.
Warp Timing him up the board sounds so dirty, but against a few of the local lists I’ve seen that were cheesy as hell, I won’t feel so bad if/when I face off against them.
Don't worry, just go for it. Warptime that LOS up the board and scare the crap out of people!
The LOS is expensive for its firepower, considering what imperial knights can have access to. (Consider a Castellan's firepower against that of a LOS). But the LOS has a lot more synergy with a CSM army because it can benefit from warptime as well as the daemon forge strategem.
As far as I am concerned, CSM needs all the advantages it can get. In any case, the LOS makes a great centrepiece of a model (I love the model). So, don't be shy to go for it.
Hades Gratling gun is great. Always go for that if you can unless points become such a big issue. (Or if your local meta is so shooty it can shoot a LOS off the board in one turn).
Our only Faction keyword that can’t be used in a detachment is CHAOS. Go ahead and use Plague Drones to fill out a NURGLE Outriders. Or use some Bikers, or Tzaangor Enlightened, and make it a HERETIC ASTARTES Detachment. If you don’t need to unlock the Stratagems, or LEGION Traits, there’s no drawback to Chaos soup.
What is the height difference between a Khorne Kytan and a Renegade Knight? If any? Thinking a conversion might be a decent idea...then I can do the “Rick and Morty” Mags/Mortarion/Kytan combo.
I have been looking at building a competitive EC list and wanted to get some feedback on what to bring? Obviously I would bring the Noise marines for core but how big? 10 man or bigger? How many sonic brutes and then what else?
well, sadly there isn't really a competitive EC list. When the book dropped and then the FAQ for sonic dreads, sure, but as of now you pay way too much for what you get. Helbrutes are just terrible, over priced and way to easily killed. They need some love, like a demonic invuln or at least let them roll a die for every wound lost that phase for crazed. Noise marines are great compared to normal marines, but that isn't worth much lol. Right now they depend on CP's like madness in order to keep up. Sure they shoot when they die, but then they are dead.
Let me explain it another way. go read up on a carnifex with heavy venom canon then look at the sonic helbrute and the costs, it's fething stupid. The carnifex is dramatically cheaper, doesn't sacrifice his combat arms for guns unless he wants more guns (4 arms is nice lol) and the heavy venom canon is S9 ap-2 3 damage with D3 shots and assault. Oh and they come in groups of 3 meaning they can have 9 but act independently. It's so stupid. Then a tyranid warrior with bones swords and death spiter has an assault HB, yup, better then our sonic blaster and a power weapon and they have 3 wounds for only a bit more. Thats one book thats realeased last fall.
I really feel like the books released last summer are total garbage in regard to balance when compared to the fall and spring releases. Fall ramped them up and winter ans spring kind of kept the creep at bay, nothing crazy happend, it's the gap between the first 4 books and every one else that is insanely wide.
Currently competitive means spamming cultists, just look at that list posted just above. It's some characters, some heavys and a sh1t ton of cultists. No thanks, I'll play my Catachans when I feel like running soft humans lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry to sound negative, this was geared toward the competitive part of your request, I love my EC and would encourage you to build an army, just don't expect to beat the majority of the field in competitive settings. For pick up games they rock and are great for modeling opportunities. Or to play an event and hope to place somewhere in the middle at best, but have fun.
rubrics cost tons and do absolutely nothing 107pt for 5 models which are deleted in 1 nanosecond, plague and rubrics are the two worst cult, at least in competitive ( i mean tournaments)
blackmage wrote: rubrics cost tons and do absolutely nothing 107pt for 5 models which are deleted in 1 nanosecond, plague and rubrics are the two worst cult, at least in competitive ( i mean tournaments)
They work a lot better inside of their own books where Rubrics get more psychic powers and a psychic range bonus and Plague Marines get better supporting rules.
Basically if you're going to run them, I'd argue for a detachment of them from their codex instead of pure out of the CSM book (which is funny since I've seen TS players argue for taking Rubrics out of the CSM book for units of 5 with a Soulreaper Cannon since you can't get one below 10 models in the TS codex currently. Somewhere Tzeentch is laughing at this I bet).
lindsay40k wrote: Our only Faction keyword that can’t be used in a detachment is CHAOS. Go ahead and use Plague Drones to fill out a NURGLE Outriders. Or use some Bikers, or Tzaangor Enlightened, and make it a HERETIC ASTARTES Detachment. If you don’t need to unlock the Stratagems, or LEGION Traits, there’s no drawback to Chaos soup.
Oh wow...I actually hadn't thought of using that keyword...
foetid bloat drones and tzaangor enlightened...oh man. This opens up so many ridiculously fun army builds...
My EC noise marines are going to have new allied heretic astartes detachment full of weird and wondrous allies!
blackmage wrote: rubrics cost tons and do absolutely nothing 107pt for 5 models which are deleted in 1 nanosecond, plague and rubrics are the two worst cult, at least in competitive ( i mean tournaments)
They work a lot better inside of their own books where Rubrics get more psychic powers and a psychic range bonus and Plague Marines get better supporting rules.
Basically if you're going to run them, I'd argue for a detachment of them from their codex instead of pure out of the CSM book (which is funny since I've seen TS players argue for taking Rubrics out of the CSM book for units of 5 with a Soulreaper Cannon since you can't get one below 10 models in the TS codex currently. Somewhere Tzeentch is laughing at this I bet).
regardless of codex they are overcosted , i often test for ETC and almost no one play them, then of course in casual games they might be decent, in competite they are close to useless. There is no reason to spend on them lot of psy powers when you can play 30 tzaangors which are 100 times better and lot cheaper, try to face 30 tzaangors full empowered by Ts spells and face 10 rubrics empowered same way... i know maybe i have restricted point of view because i play only competitive so im limited in my choices. my 2 cents
Hi guys (and ladies). What is the general consensus on chosen now days?
I am considering doing up some chosen models with combi bolters and chainswords. @ 18pts a pop for 4 bolter shots and 3cc attacks they look like they could make a decent infantry killer unit.
blackmage wrote: rubrics cost tons and do absolutely nothing 107pt for 5 models which are deleted in 1 nanosecond, plague and rubrics are the two worst cult, at least in competitive ( i mean tournaments)
They work a lot better inside of their own books where Rubrics get more psychic powers and a psychic range bonus and Plague Marines get better supporting rules.
Basically if you're going to run them, I'd argue for a detachment of them from their codex instead of pure out of the CSM book (which is funny since I've seen TS players argue for taking Rubrics out of the CSM book for units of 5 with a Soulreaper Cannon since you can't get one below 10 models in the TS codex currently. Somewhere Tzeentch is laughing at this I bet).
regardless of codex they are overcosted , i often test for ETC and almost no one play them, then of course in casual games they might be decent, in competite they are close to useless. There is no reason to spend on them lot of psy powers when you can play 30 tzaangors which are 100 times better and lot cheaper, try to face 30 tzaangors full empowered by Ts spells and face 10 rubrics empowered same way... i know maybe i have restricted point of view because i play only competitive so im limited in my choices. my 2 cents
See, I feel this is where people are missing the boat. An Aspiring Sorceror is a good backup source for a power (like Death Hex) if you need it in your army because you might lose your HQ Sorceror, and he doesn't suffer from tossing out Smite every turn anymore. Additionally Rubrics don't need as many supporting elements to do their job (camp on an objective in cover and deter anyone from getting too close).
Tzaangors are better employed as an offensive element in the army to push up and smack things in the face (sometimes as an alpha strike), which isn't what you want Rubrics for. Rubrics are your anvil while other parts of your army serve as a hammer.
That said, 1 unit of 20 or 2 units of 10 are the most Rubrics I'd run at around 2k as they're not something to over invest in since you should be running other stuff (like a Mutalith Vortex Beast who works great as a self-buffing Distraction Carnifex who can also toss out mortal wounds and buff your Goats for only 150 points, or a Defiler with Lascannons you buff with Flickering Flames to wreck their armoured toys with).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bryan01 wrote: Hi guys (and ladies). What is the general consensus on chosen now days?
I am considering doing up some chosen models with combi bolters and chainswords. @ 18pts a pop for 4 bolter shots and 3cc attacks they look like they could make a decent infantry killer unit.
Chosen are pretty good, they just have to compete with a heavily loaded elites section that makes putting them into an army fairly difficult at times. That said, if you basically want to use them as Diet Terminators who roll up in a Rhino, hop out and unleash the fury, it's not a horrible choice.
Bryan01 wrote: Hi guys (and ladies). What is the general consensus on chosen now days?
I am considering doing up some chosen models with combi bolters and chainswords. @ 18pts a pop for 4 bolter shots and 3cc attacks they look like they could make a decent infantry killer unit.
The exact loadout you listed is pretty cool. Chosen are doing basically what Sternguard and Command Squads are doing except better, seeing that Sternguard only have two attacks, and Command Squads have a pretty useless bodyguard rule and don't have as many good Strategems to use. VotLW is pretty awesome with 6 Combi-Bolters, even when that's not the best target to use it on.
blackmage wrote: rubrics cost tons and do absolutely nothing 107pt for 5 models which are deleted in 1 nanosecond, plague and rubrics are the two worst cult, at least in competitive ( i mean tournaments)
They work a lot better inside of their own books where Rubrics get more psychic powers and a psychic range bonus and Plague Marines get better supporting rules.
Basically if you're going to run them, I'd argue for a detachment of them from their codex instead of pure out of the CSM book (which is funny since I've seen TS players argue for taking Rubrics out of the CSM book for units of 5 with a Soulreaper Cannon since you can't get one below 10 models in the TS codex currently. Somewhere Tzeentch is laughing at this I bet).
regardless of codex they are overcosted , i often test for ETC and almost no one play them, then of course in casual games they might be decent, in competite they are close to useless. There is no reason to spend on them lot of psy powers when you can play 30 tzaangors which are 100 times better and lot cheaper, try to face 30 tzaangors full empowered by Ts spells and face 10 rubrics empowered same way... i know maybe i have restricted point of view because i play only competitive so im limited in my choices. my 2 cents
Rubrics aren't overcosted as much as the Flamers are and the fact they can't get a Cannon until 10 dudes reeks. At least they could've been fluffy and said you get the cannon at 9 dudes.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Rubrics aren't overcosted as much as the Flamers are and the fact they can't get a Cannon until 10 dudes reeks. At least they could've been fluffy and said you get the cannon at 9 dudes.
Yeah, the heavy weapon option should have allowed for smaller units, and while I feel the flamer could be cheaper, I also feel like they priced it like that to try and restrict flamer spam from being a tactic. That or it was just too powerful in testing and they priced accordingly. Seeing community interaction with the codex could lead to changes in points cost and options in CA, but we'll have to wait and see to know for sure there.
Even if everything for Rubrics was cheaper I don't think we're ever going to see them en masse on the table though, at least not as long as CP generation is tied to list building where it promotes Tzaangors over Rubrics for massed units.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Rubrics aren't overcosted as much as the Flamers are and the fact they can't get a Cannon until 10 dudes reeks. At least they could've been fluffy and said you get the cannon at 9 dudes.
Yeah, the heavy weapon option should have allowed for smaller units, and while I feel the flamer could be cheaper, I also feel like they priced it like that to try and restrict flamer spam from being a tactic. That or it was just too powerful in testing and they priced accordingly. Seeing community interaction with the codex could lead to changes in points cost and options in CA, but we'll have to wait and see to know for sure there.
Even if everything for Rubrics was cheaper I don't think we're ever going to see them en masse on the table though, at least not as long as CP generation is tied to list building where it promotes Tzaangors over Rubrics for massed units.
I'm not saying they couldn't be cheaper of course. The cannon thing bothers me the most though.
Also I'm still peeved that CSM units, by default, are not automatically Vet stats.
show me a list which had success ( i mean high level tournaments) and play a decent number of rubrics, please.
Ps: why put death hex with a casting cost of 8 to aspiring sorcerer when you can have Ahriman or a Dp with high magister, try to cast a important spell like death hex without any bonus is wrong it will go off 5/12 times, no sense, smite with 1 mortal wound is nothing just a small bonus, btw for a tournament player rubrics will remain trash, im sorry.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Rubrics aren't overcosted as much as the Flamers are and the fact they can't get a Cannon until 10 dudes reeks. At least they could've been fluffy and said you get the cannon at 9 dudes.
Yeah, the heavy weapon option should have allowed for smaller units, and while I feel the flamer could be cheaper, I also feel like they priced it like that to try and restrict flamer spam from being a tactic. That or it was just too powerful in testing and they priced accordingly. Seeing community interaction with the codex could lead to changes in points cost and options in CA, but we'll have to wait and see to know for sure there.
Even if everything for Rubrics was cheaper I don't think we're ever going to see them en masse on the table though, at least not as long as CP generation is tied to list building where it promotes Tzaangors over Rubrics for massed units.
What would be so bad with flamer rubrics being an actual thing?
If they wanted to prevent spam, the choice should have been to not have 10 in the box and just restrict the number, but as it is priced its utterly useless-you can't afford to put an overpriced gun on an already overpriced platform.
Rubrics needs about 2 point reduction to their base cost, soulreapers at 5 man squads and about 5 point reduction to flamers in order for them to be a viable choice for competetive games, and even then I'm not sure they'll be good enough to form the core of a competitive list.
I am having so much trouble trying to make an Alpha Legion list with two Daemon Princes as characters.
To the point where I even considered changing to Night Lords instead, but I end up with similar issues.
Basically, the CSM Princes are categorically worse than any other Prince option, for a start. Like, 20-30% less survivable compared to a Nurgle or Tzeentch option. That's just to start.
Then obviously I would have a Prince as a warlord, which is... ok. Most of the CSM warlord traits are just worse than the options for TS or DG or Daemons, but there's a couple of 'ok' options at least.
But then relics -
DG - Several options, one of the best being a 2+ save which dishes out mortal wounds.
TS - Limited choices, but Dark Matter Crystal is universally great.
Daemons - Robe giving a Tzeentch Prince the equivalent of a 3+ Invulnerable, and a free re-roll per game. Corruption and Soulstealer are great sword options too.
Vanilla Chaos Marines - .... nothing. Could go Slaanesh I guess for +1S and +1A, but considering that you're only rocking a 5++ (compared to the 5++/5+++ or 3++ or even 2+/5++ of other princes), you're relatively succeptable to dying early in the game.
So yeh, trying to fit out detachments at the moment is like... I should put the Prince here, with these units here, but oh wait that means he needs to be a vanilla prince and I have noone to give a relic to. (Because the vanilla relics all require bolt pistols or power swords or other things that the prince doesn't have).
Infuriating. On top of the fact that I'm having to allocate 170 points for the Prince, when in any other codex the same 170 points gets a better save, a better invulnerable, a FNP, a better weapon, or even extra psychic spell casting. (not all of the above, but generally it's pick 2 or 3).
Bit of a rant there. CSM Princes need the God buffs though, at minimum.
Well we DO have some good relics for the generic Characters. Blade Of The Hydra, Black Mace, etc. Some of them are pretty lackluster like Axe of Blind Fury and such.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well we DO have some good relics for the generic Characters. Blade Of The Hydra, Black Mace, etc. Some of them are pretty lackluster like Axe of Blind Fury and such.
Requires chain sword, requires power mace, neither of which are options for the Prince.
Which was pretty much my problem - You can't run a CSM army with Princes as your HQ, without basically forfeiting your Relic choice (And in some cases your warlord trait options). You'd have to spend a tax of 100 extra points on a Lord or Sorcerer in order to have someone who can take a relic (meaning 500 points of your army is based on 3 models).
How many points are you playing with? It's rare for me to not have at least 3hqs in anything 1750 up.
Consider an exalted champion with the black mace to back up your prince with the rerolls to wound?
Chain axe beserkers ex champion and a Daemon Prince make a pretty unstoppable beat stick, haven't mathed it but pretty sure they'd easily take down a Knight dominus in one go...
Abaddon303 wrote: How many points are you playing with? It's rare for me to not have at least 3hqs in anything 1750 up.
Consider an exalted champion with the black mace to back up your prince with the rerolls to wound?
Chain axe beserkers ex champion and a Daemon Prince make a pretty unstoppable beat stick, haven't mathed it but pretty sure they'd easily take down a Knight dominus in one go...
Assuming this is aimed at me, adding more HQ's doesn't really solve the problem. The alternative options for Princes are still all significantly better (like 50+ points worth) than the vanilla CSM prince, but they cost the same, along with having better relics and warlord traits.
Probably going to just have to put up with it, and just run them anyway, but if I did ever play competitively then running stock princes vs any other codex prince is a massive disability.
Niiru wrote: I am having so much trouble trying to make an Alpha Legion list with two Daemon Princes as characters.
To the point where I even considered changing to Night Lords instead, but I end up with similar issues.
Basically, the CSM Princes are categorically worse than any other Prince option, for a start. Like, 20-30% less survivable compared to a Nurgle or Tzeentch option. That's just to start.
Then obviously I would have a Prince as a warlord, which is... ok. Most of the CSM warlord traits are just worse than the options for TS or DG or Daemons, but there's a couple of 'ok' options at least.
But then relics -
DG - Several options, one of the best being a 2+ save which dishes out mortal wounds.
TS - Limited choices, but Dark Matter Crystal is universally great.
Daemons - Robe giving a Tzeentch Prince the equivalent of a 3+ Invulnerable, and a free re-roll per game. Corruption and Soulstealer are great sword options too.
Vanilla Chaos Marines - .... nothing. Could go Slaanesh I guess for +1S and +1A, but considering that you're only rocking a 5++ (compared to the 5++/5+++ or 3++ or even 2+/5++ of other princes), you're relatively succeptable to dying early in the game.
So yeh, trying to fit out detachments at the moment is like... I should put the Prince here, with these units here, but oh wait that means he needs to be a vanilla prince and I have noone to give a relic to. (Because the vanilla relics all require bolt pistols or power swords or other things that the prince doesn't have).
Infuriating. On top of the fact that I'm having to allocate 170 points for the Prince, when in any other codex the same 170 points gets a better save, a better invulnerable, a FNP, a better weapon, or even extra psychic spell casting. (not all of the above, but generally it's pick 2 or 3).
Bit of a rant there. CSM Princes need the God buffs though, at minimum.
CSM daemon princes are not competitive units. I wouldn't run them at all if I was trying for pure Alpha Legion. Better to stack things that actually benefit from -1 to hit and are not totally and utterly outclassed by their Thousand Sons counterparts.
Making a daemon prince Alpha Legion is a pretty self-defeating combo tbh. Alpha Legion wants to be more than 12" away. Daemon princes want to charge.
Gunline is likely what you want. Something like a hellforged leviathan with dual butcher cannons and some -1 to hit cultist screens to disable enemy charges entirely. Throw in a lord to reroll those 1s and you'll have a firebase that almost guarantees that it will land 15-16 S8 shots every turn from 36" away.
Alpha Legion is all about maximizing the benefits of -1 to hit. If your hardest hitting unit combos don't have that, not sure what kind of results you're expecting.
Niiru wrote: I am having so much trouble trying to make an Alpha Legion list with two Daemon Princes as characters.
To the point where I even considered changing to Night Lords instead, but I end up with similar issues.
Basically, the CSM Princes are categorically worse than any other Prince option, for a start. Like, 20-30% less survivable compared to a Nurgle or Tzeentch option. That's just to start.
Then obviously I would have a Prince as a warlord, which is... ok. Most of the CSM warlord traits are just worse than the options for TS or DG or Daemons, but there's a couple of 'ok' options at least.
But then relics -
DG - Several options, one of the best being a 2+ save which dishes out mortal wounds.
TS - Limited choices, but Dark Matter Crystal is universally great.
Daemons - Robe giving a Tzeentch Prince the equivalent of a 3+ Invulnerable, and a free re-roll per game. Corruption and Soulstealer are great sword options too.
Vanilla Chaos Marines - .... nothing. Could go Slaanesh I guess for +1S and +1A, but considering that you're only rocking a 5++ (compared to the 5++/5+++ or 3++ or even 2+/5++ of other princes), you're relatively succeptable to dying early in the game.
So yeh, trying to fit out detachments at the moment is like... I should put the Prince here, with these units here, but oh wait that means he needs to be a vanilla prince and I have noone to give a relic to. (Because the vanilla relics all require bolt pistols or power swords or other things that the prince doesn't have).
Infuriating. On top of the fact that I'm having to allocate 170 points for the Prince, when in any other codex the same 170 points gets a better save, a better invulnerable, a FNP, a better weapon, or even extra psychic spell casting. (not all of the above, but generally it's pick 2 or 3).
Bit of a rant there. CSM Princes need the God buffs though, at minimum.
CSM daemon princes are not competitive units. I wouldn't run them at all if I was trying for pure Alpha Legion. Better to stack things that actually benefit from -1 to hit and are not totally and utterly outclassed by their Thousand Sons counterparts.
Making a daemon prince Alpha Legion is a pretty self-defeating combo tbh. Alpha Legion wants to be more than 12" away. Daemon princes want to charge.
Gunline is likely what you want. Something like a hellforged leviathan with dual butcher cannons and some -1 to hit cultist screens to disable enemy charges entirely. Throw in a lord to reroll those 1s. Alpha Legion is all about maximizing the benefits of -1 to hit. If your hardest hitting unit combos don't have that, not sure what kind of results you're expecting.
Yeh, a Leviathan is on my possibility list, but I won't be huddling in a corner gunlining people... if I wanted to play a boring cookie-cutter list, I could just go Ultramarines and do it properly!
I chose Alpha legion from a perspective of the fluff of my army, the -1 to hit trait was more of a side effect, but will at least give some protection to some of my units as they cross the board (or from enemy units that are longer range).
Basically the Legions that I -wont- use are:
Black Legion
Iron Warriors
World Eaters
Word Bearers
Alpha legion is also throwing zerkers into your face with the stratagem.
Thinking of alpha as pure shooty is a mistake. The trait is also useful as a defense until you get to melee (at least against the big guns or back)
Huh. Terminator heavy list. I know Blightlords are distinguished by 4++ & 5+++, which with T5 makes them potentially harder to kill than THSS... be interesting to see how they were being used.
lindsay40k wrote: Huh. Terminator heavy list. I know Blightlords are distinguished by 4++ & 5+++, which with T5 makes them potentially harder to kill than THSS... be interesting to see how they were being used.
I'm curious too. They're one of the only Terminators to be almost worth their price.
blackmage wrote: show me a list which had success ( i mean high level tournaments) and play a decent number of rubrics, please.
Ps: why put death hex with a casting cost of 8 to aspiring sorcerer when you can have Ahriman or a Dp with high magister, try to cast a important spell like death hex without any bonus is wrong it will go off 5/12 times, no sense, smite with 1 mortal wound is nothing just a small bonus, btw for a tournament player rubrics will remain trash, im sorry.
Yes, because everyone plays top table high level games that follow missions and restrictions that are different than the core rules of the game and require a level of specialized optimization that only exist in that meta and thus they should only look at that meta to find the best list for the locale they play.
I pointed out a rather clear restriction on Rubrics (I'd never recommend more than 20 in a 2k lists), and the CP issue making Tzaangors (and Cultists) making them more popular of a choice (because let's be honest, if you need a durable anvil unit Tzaangors aren't a reasonable choice due to their squishiness).
And Death Hex was an example, but if you'd noticed I said "as a back up" as in you take it for if you lose your HQ that is carrying Death Hex (say, late in the game where you're running lower on CP and don't want to spend it on the Familiar) and in the meantime you throw out smite instead, you wouldn't be asking why I'd be using it on a AS instead of an HQ.
What would be so bad with flamer rubrics being an actual thing?
If they wanted to prevent spam, the choice should have been to not have 10 in the box and just restrict the number, but as it is priced its utterly useless-you can't afford to put an overpriced gun on an already overpriced platform.
Rubrics needs about 2 point reduction to their base cost, soulreapers at 5 man squads and about 5 point reduction to flamers in order for them to be a viable choice for competetive games, and even then I'm not sure they'll be good enough to form the core of a competitive list.
Experiance has told me that GW's inital approach to balance tends to be using a large nerf hammer on things followed by eventual fine tuning (in this edition, in old editions they'd just over buff things to make them sell again).
I'd welcome a points decrease but to really make Rubrics a valid options (and by extension CSM), I feel the game needs to break away from CP generation being list based.
So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
lindsay40k wrote: Huh. Terminator heavy list. I know Blightlords are distinguished by 4++ & 5+++, which with T5 makes them potentially harder to kill than THSS... be interesting to see how they were being used.
Talking to don via Facebook, he ssid he used them as backlune pressurr. He would drop them behind his enemy T2 after they moved forward, causing them to have to choose where to go. This also forced enemies into his pbcs.
He said the MVP in all but the finals were the terminators. Waiting to hear more, hes writing an analysis later
Hmm, Blightlords are also very well placed to leverage DG trait. 18” double tap with plasma and twin bolters. Very nice unit to drop into an upper floor and not care about a low movement.
Can I give Corruption and the Suppurating Plate to a Death Guard Daemon Prince? (He would be my warlord and I'd use the strategem for the extra relic)
My understanding is that Death Guard relics need a Death Guard warlord, but CD relics only need a Nurgle Daemon warlord, which the Death Guard prince is.
How would:
DG battalion
2 princes w/wings
3X3 nurglings
TS supreme command
Ahriman on disc
2X jump pack sorcerors one with helm of the 3rd eye
Alpha legion Battalion
Apostle
Exalted Champion
2X20 khorne berserkers
40 cultists MoS 14 cultists MoS 2x10 cultists MoS
~2000 14CP
Basically get all your spells off through Ahriman and his buds including a +3 to cast death hex with 24" range. You basically use the nurglings in to hold the table space for cheatfultrating in the berserkers and cultists.
With knights running around with a 2++ (knight astropose) death hex is a really necessary evil and Ahriman is the only F'er to reliably cast it. Plus if I start my smites off with the nurgle princes, the highest it will ever cost is 6+ from the second prince since the T-sons don't suffer a penalty. That gets me some steady mortal wounds.
edit
Im over points, would need to swap a DP or drop s few zerkers I think.
blackmage wrote: i would use 2 exalted on disk and drop 20 cultists
Any reason why? They seem worth it on paper when points are not so tight, I just can't see shedding 20 wounds for 2. The sorcerors provide the exact same psychic ability and speed. I am struggling to cram it all in without dropping too many bodies, I want the berserkers to remain in solid numbers as well as cultiists since they are the best answer to horde and to outlasting knights.
Can I give Corruption and the Suppurating Plate to a Death Guard Daemon Prince? (He would be my warlord and I'd use the strategem for the extra relic)
My understanding is that Death Guard relics need a Death Guard warlord, but CD relics only need a Nurgle Daemon warlord, which the Death Guard prince is.
Am I missing anything that prevents this?
You can't give two relics to one guy.
In addition, you can use the Extra Relics strat for any detachment, even ones you don't have a Warlord from. See the Death Guard FAQ.
blackmage wrote: i would use 2 exalted on disk and drop 20 cultists
Any reason why? They seem worth it on paper when points are not so tight, I just can't see shedding 20 wounds for 2. The sorcerors provide the exact same psychic ability and speed. I am struggling to cram it all in without dropping too many bodies, I want the berserkers to remain in solid numbers as well as cultiists since they are the best answer to horde and to outlasting knights.
they hit on 2+ and re roll 1's (and also makes Ts unit's within 6" re roll 1's), they have 5 wounds, just for 13 more points. About cultists or you play in large numbers or pretty pointless play units of 10 expecting they do something, they take 4 dead and they risk to evaporate, the only success i had with cultists was a large horde of 40+40+40, btw just my personal experience.
So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
Another question to ask would be, what god would it be better to use for my CSM units? I guess it pretty much only matters as far as certain psychic powers and for stratagems. The best stratagem for Noise and Oblits is the slaanesh one, but that would mean running 3 gods in one list which I'm not sure if that is a bad idea.
BoomWolf wrote: Alpha legion is also throwing zerkers into your face with the stratagem.
Thinking of alpha as pure shooty is a mistake. The trait is also useful as a defense until you get to melee (at least against the big guns or back)
You're right. Alpha Legion berserkers can potentially combo much better with a daemon prince too since they will contribute to his character protection in that part of the map as he buffs their hits. He would have the movement to make it over there in reasonable time while the berserkers make excellent use of the AL strat.
blackmage wrote: i would use 2 exalted on disk and drop 20 cultists
Any reason why? They seem worth it on paper when points are not so tight, I just can't see shedding 20 wounds for 2. The sorcerors provide the exact same psychic ability and speed. I am struggling to cram it all in without dropping too many bodies, I want the berserkers to remain in solid numbers as well as cultiists since they are the best answer to horde and to outlasting knights.
they hit on 2+ and re roll 1's (and also makes Ts unit's within 6" re roll 1's), they have 5 wounds, just for 13 more points. About cultists or you play in large numbers or pretty pointless play units of 10 expecting they do something, they take 4 dead and they risk to evaporate, the only success i had with cultists was a large horde of 40+40+40, btw just my personal experience.
Well, I wouldn't need them for combat really. Not the point in the list you know. Their also are on other TS units besides Ahriman, who BTW the socerors will be near for the +2 to cast strat so already have reroll 1's. It's not just 13 points either, on a disc they cost 141 as opposed to 120 for the socerors with jump packs. That's 42 points, or 10 cultists.
Cultists unit size is a fair point, I personally prefer running one large and multiple min squads but I figured having a second squad for tide of traitors or strat use was useful in case they were wiped out turn 1. To be honest though, I usually run iron warriors and the cold and bitter trait makes moral a none issue. It is somethign to consider in this list though, your right.
fact is actual competitive lists can wipe easily 20-30 cultists so you need a lot, 10 do nothing if just camp in backfield taking obj but as soon as opponent decide to wipe them he does. Take a look for example to BAO winner list. Btw seems like a sorcerer with jump pack cost 128 non 120 and i dont find any jump pack sorcerer in Ts army.
Cultists in unit sizes above 20 should never really be taken without Abaddon or some sort of plan to ignore leadership. Killing ~20 cultists is pitifully easy regardless of psychic buffs and everyone knows that tide of traitors is coming so it's unlikely they will risk letting your cultists survive through the morale phase. With Ld6 you can pretty much safely wipe a 40 man squad by killing a little over half.
I'm definitely a fan of multiple small units of 10 Alpha Legion cultists for screening a gunline and infiltrating for board control. But with larger blobs morale is such an issue that a unit of 20-30 cultists isn't actually much more survivable than a minimum unit of 10. IW or Abaddon or planning to spend CP are the ways to play big blobs.
Cultists are easily one of the strongest contenders for MVP of the CSM codex so it's important to get them right. (The other one is probably 3x3 oblits.)
So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
Another question to ask would be, what god would it be better to use for my CSM units? I guess it pretty much only matters as far as certain psychic powers and for stratagems. The best stratagem for Noise and Oblits is the slaanesh one, but that would mean running 3 gods in one list which I'm not sure if that is a bad idea.
3x3 nurglings is always good, for the same reason as MSUAL cultists. Annoying to remove, gives you board control/character protectoin, cap points. Could be fun with the exalted flamers, though I've found that the flamers are generally pretty easy for my opponent to ignore since they only fire 2 S8 shots on average. 180pts for 4 S8 shots hitting on 3s doesn't really compare to say, the leviathan's 16 S8 shots hitting on 2s for 330pts. Different use cases I know, but I think there are more efficient sources of dakka that would better compliment the rest of your list.
You already have plenty of mobility and infiltration for gaining board control so maybe consider berserkers, havocs, leviathan, or something a bit more killy-for-points. Maybe even a bloodletter or horror bomb to drop turn 2 if you're feeling really adventurous (though in general T2 drops tend to be a little too late in the game to matter since your opponent will already have had a chance to reposition and screen optimally for your drop).
The changeling, blue scribes, 2x exalted flamers, and giant chaos spawn generally look to be an expensive combo that won't accomplish much for its cost.
3x3 nurglings is always good, for the same reason as MSUAL cultists. Annoying to remove, gives you board control/character protectoin, cap points. Could be fun with the exalted flamers, though I've found that the flamers are generally pretty easy for my opponent to ignore since they only fire 2 S8 shots on average. 180pts for 4 S8 shots hitting on 3s doesn't really compare to say, the leviathan's 16 S8 shots hitting on 2s for 330pts. Different use cases I know, but I think there are more efficient sources of dakka that would better compliment the rest of your list.
You already have plenty of mobility and infiltration for gaining board control so maybe consider berserkers, havocs, leviathan, or something a bit more killy-for-points. Maybe even a bloodletter or horror bomb to drop turn 2?
The changeling, blue scribes, 2x exalted flamers, and giant chaos spawn generally look to be an expensive combo that won't accomplish much for its cost.
Thanks for the reply.
Has there been an FAQ that's not the normal Daemons FAQ for the codex? As Exalted Flamers are Heavy3, not HeavyD3, so they should always be putting out 3 lascannon shots each not an average of 2. Their flamer shot is a PistolD6, maybe you're mixing those up? I thought 3 lascannon shots on an 80 points character that can't be targetted wasn't too bad.
Dropping the changeling and the scribes also means losing 5cp, and running a game with ~5-8CP total instead of 13CP is a pretty big difference.
Giant chaos spawn is basically taking the role of a maulerfiend in the list. More survivable though, and is a much bigger distraction carnifex with its regen of wounds (at least on paper, plus it's a conversion I'm working on haha).
I mean if the exalted and the daemon hq's are all terrible options, then I'll just take 1 hq and the nurglings and the spawn. Means I lose 5CP though like I said, which seems a big deal...
barboggo wrote: Cultists in unit sizes above 20 should never really be taken without Abaddon or some sort of plan to ignore leadership. Killing ~20 cultists is pitifully easy regardless of psychic buffs and everyone knows that tide of traitors is coming so it's unlikely they will risk letting your cultists survive through the morale phase. With Ld6 you can pretty much safely wipe a 40 man squad by killing a little over half.
I'm definitely a fan of multiple small units of 10 Alpha Legion cultists for screening a gunline and infiltrating for board control. But with larger blobs morale is such an issue that a unit of 20-30 cultists isn't actually much more survivable than a minimum unit of 10. IW or Abaddon or planning to spend CP are the ways to play big blobs.
Cultists are easily one of the strongest contenders for MVP of the CSM codex so it's important to get them right. (The other one is probably 3x3 oblits.)
So the Daemons detachment is there to give me 5CP from the get go, along with three units of pre-game-start zone blocking with the Nurglings. Will also help with protecting my characters, as the nurglings will likely be a closer target for the enemy for the first couple turns. Exalted flamers are fast enough to keep up with pretty much anything, keep in cover and dish out lascannon/flamer damage. Changeling and Blue Scribes because I needed two HQ's, and they both seem pretty fun to use (and Changeling is another psychic which is helpful). If Scribes roll a buff spell, they can throw it on the Spawn.
CSM has a lot of big hitters, two princes and an assassin Lord. The soulburner contemptor should also throw out a fair few wounds, but I'm tempted to upgrade it to a leviathan (but much more pricey obvs). The obliterators are in there for turn 2 or 3 anti-tank or anti-elites, but not sure if this list needs them (I have a cool conversion idea for them though). Aware my units are short on bodies (not counting the nurglings), but as everything is pretty fast I'm considering the merits of a raptor squad or two.
Though raptor squads and a leviathan with butcher cannons may lead to tempting me to change from Alpha to Night Lords for the -LD shenanigans.
But yeh, I know the list is pretty weak as it is, but there are some points left to spend. Could in theory add like 60 cultists to the list and have plenty of bodies (but I'd rather not do that).
A squad of 10 noise marines or berzerkers to Forward Operatives on turn 1 is always an option too.
Interested to hear any thoughts. Might be better off dropping the daemons entirely, but I'd like to add a couple nurgling units and two exalted flamers and the Giant Spawn to the list, and that detachment seemed the most efficient way that also got me 5CP to play with. I could drop one HQ and one nurgling squad and save 150 points, but I'd also lose 5CP which seems a lot... not too sure.
EDIT:
Added a noise marine squad in a rhino, and put the lord with them instead of a jump pack.
Also added 30 cultists, probably as 3 squads of 10. Gets me 5 more CP. I realised I can use forward operative more than once, so I can jump a couple of those squads up to help out the nurglings while my big guys cross the board.
Another question to ask would be, what god would it be better to use for my CSM units? I guess it pretty much only matters as far as certain psychic powers and for stratagems. The best stratagem for Noise and Oblits is the slaanesh one, but that would mean running 3 gods in one list which I'm not sure if that is a bad idea.
3x3 nurglings is always good, for the same reason as MSUAL cultists. Annoying to remove, gives you board control/character protectoin, cap points. Could be fun with the exalted flamers, though I've found that the flamers are generally pretty easy for my opponent to ignore since they only fire 2 S8 shots on average. 180pts for 4 S8 shots hitting on 3s doesn't really compare to say, the leviathan's 16 S8 shots hitting on 2s for 330pts. Different use cases I know, but I think there are more efficient sources of dakka that would better compliment the rest of your list.
You already have plenty of mobility and infiltration for gaining board control so maybe consider berserkers, havocs, leviathan, or something a bit more killy-for-points. Maybe even a bloodletter or horror bomb to drop turn 2 if you're feeling really adventurous (though in general T2 drops tend to be a little too late in the game to matter since your opponent will already have had a chance to reposition and screen optimally for your drop).
The changeling, blue scribes, 2x exalted flamers, and giant chaos spawn generally look to be an expensive combo that won't accomplish much for its cost.
infact that's the only way you have to play cultists if you want have them do something with Abbadon or IW Qg with cold and bitter
Has there been an FAQ that's not the normal Daemons FAQ for the codex? As Exalted Flamers are Heavy3, not HeavyD3, so they should always be putting out 3 lascannon shots each not an average of 2. Their flamer shot is a PistolD6, maybe you're mixing those up? I thought 3 lascannon shots on an 80 points character that can't be targetted wasn't too bad.
Dropping the changeling and the scribes also means losing 5cp, and running a game with ~5-8CP total instead of 13CP is a pretty big difference.
Giant chaos spawn is basically taking the role of a maulerfiend in the list. More survivable though, and is a much bigger distraction carnifex with its regen of wounds (at least on paper, plus it's a conversion I'm working on haha).
I mean if the exalted and the daemon hq's are all terrible options, then I'll just take 1 hq and the nurglings and the spawn. Means I lose 5CP though like I said, which seems a big deal...
My bad, you might be right on the exalted flamer shots, I get their guns confused all the time. I'm mainly speaking from experience running them, and usually it's been underwhelming. Yeah, they're certainly not bad, but it's more like decent-for-points "utility" dakka rather than straight up hyper efficient "killy" dakka, which I think your list could use a bit more of. Right now your most efficient killy units are the 3x3 oblits (great choice) and the 2 DPs (also good). One more major threat would be a nice addition.
Could you proxy the changeling as a changecaster and use it to buff horrors possibly? Or if you have a small nurgle HQ run it as a sloppity bilepiper to let your nurglings charge and advance to really create a pain in the butt for your opponent. Bloodmasters are also basically the same models as bloodletters so if you have them, it's not a bad cheap hq choice to make a reasonably effective daemon battalion.
I think I was complaining about daemons earlier in this thread so I can totally sympathize with trying to make them work haha.
I've never run soul burner contemptors before but I have a ton of experience running single, double, and triple decimators, and from what I've seen, they go down real fast. Lots of nice mortal wounds once they're in range, but if I didn't get turn one and couldn't hide all of them, it was very common for me to lose 1 to 1.5 decimators a turn (T7, 3+/5++) before they even got a chance to shoot. And by T2 they were most definitely dead.
I strongly prefer a single leviathan with double grav or double butcher as the T8 2+ save makes a pretty big difference against all of the high shot count S7/S8 AP-1/-2 weapons that are common in competitive (reaper launchers, autocannons, butcher cannons, hive guard, etc). Forcing the opponent's S8 to wound on 4s instead of 3s is a big deal against a ton of flat 2 damage shots.
Contemptors do have the advantage of being much smaller than decimators/leviathans so if you can sneak him up all the way into kill range without getting focused then it may do some work.
Has there been an FAQ that's not the normal Daemons FAQ for the codex? As Exalted Flamers are Heavy3, not HeavyD3, so they should always be putting out 3 lascannon shots each not an average of 2. Their flamer shot is a PistolD6, maybe you're mixing those up? I thought 3 lascannon shots on an 80 points character that can't be targetted wasn't too bad.
Dropping the changeling and the scribes also means losing 5cp, and running a game with ~5-8CP total instead of 13CP is a pretty big difference.
Giant chaos spawn is basically taking the role of a maulerfiend in the list. More survivable though, and is a much bigger distraction carnifex with its regen of wounds (at least on paper, plus it's a conversion I'm working on haha).
I mean if the exalted and the daemon hq's are all terrible options, then I'll just take 1 hq and the nurglings and the spawn. Means I lose 5CP though like I said, which seems a big deal...
My bad, you might be right on the exalted flamer shots, I get their guns confused all the time. I'm mainly speaking from experience running them, and usually it's been underwhelming. Yeah, they're certainly not bad, but it's more like decent-for-points "utility" dakka rather than straight up hyper efficient "killy" dakka, which I think your list could use a bit more of. Right now your most efficient killy units are the 3x3 oblits (great choice) and the 2 DPs (also good). One more major threat would be a nice addition.
Could you proxy the changeling as a changecaster and use it to buff horrors possibly? Or if you have a small nurgle HQ run it as a sloppity bilepiper to let your nurglings charge and advance to really create a pain in the butt for your opponent. Bloodmasters are also basically the same models as bloodletters so if you have them, it's not a bad cheap hq choice to make a reasonably effective daemon battalion.
I think I was complaining about daemons earlier in this thread so I can totally sympathize with trying to make them work haha.
I've never run soul burner contemptors before but I have a ton of experience running single, double, and triple decimators, and from what I've seen, they go down real fast. Lots of nice mortal wounds once they're in range, but if I didn't get turn one and couldn't hide all of them, it was very common for me to lose 1 to 1.5 decimators a turn (T7, 3+/5++) before they even got a chance to shoot. And by T2 they were most definitely dead.
I strongly prefer a single leviathan with double grav or double butcher as the T8 2+ save makes a pretty big difference against all of the high shot count S7/S8 AP-1/-2 weapons that are common in competitive (reaper launchers, autocannons, butcher cannons, hive guard, etc). Forcing the opponent's S8 to wound on 4s instead of 3s is a big deal against a ton of flat 2 damage shots.
Contemptors do have the advantage of being much smaller than decimators/leviathans so if you can sneak him up all the way into kill range without getting focused then it may do some work.
It's only 1x3 Oblits. Obliterators x3 means 3 models not 3 units lol. I can see the confusion though, as Oblits only ever come in a unit of 3 anyway so I didn't need to specify.
I don't have a changeling model yet, that and the Scribes were just picked out because they seemed the most interesting (and relatively cheap) HQ choices to take. Also considered Karanak, who is cheaper and maybe even killier, but isn't a psyker so no smites or buffs.
Current version of the list has the Noise Marines pumped up to Two units of 5, each with Blastmaster and Doom Siren, in the Rhino. The Lord is instead on a Jump Pack, with a squad of 5 Raptors as bodyguards with 2xPlasma Pistol and Chainswords all round. Model-wise it will be better, but I'm not too sure about competitiveness. Points are also now like 2120, so something needs to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So my current version. I haven't chosen what spells to give who, which is why I've just put +spell (they dont cost anything anyway, more for my own records to remember how many spellcasters I have).
1940 points.
Detachment 1 - CSM (Alpha Legion?)
Daemon Prince <Nurgle> - Wings, Warp Bolter, +Spell
Chaos Lord w/ Jump-Pack - Plasma Pistol, Blade of the Hydra
5x Raptors - 3x Plasma Pistols, 2x Bolt Pistols, 5x Chainswords.
Chaos Lord - Combi-plasma, power sword
Noise marines x6 - blastmaster, 5x sonic blaster, champion with power sword and doom siren.
Rhino - 2x combi bolters, havoc launcher
So this version is a bit more structured, being mostly Nurgle based. I know the second Prince will lose out on the Alpha Legion trait, but he gains a 5++ FnP so I think it works out ok in survivability. Also means I gain the Locus of Virulence for a couple extra mortal wounds in a game, and it unlocks Daemon stratagems.
Two lords is a bit much I know, but it fits the fluff of the army to have more characters in place (my fluff, that is), but also fits the Alpha Legion warlord trait quite well too. I have a fair few bodies on the table with cultists, and I have 100 points to spend still. I could change a Lord to a Sorcerer instead I guess.
Mostly Nurgle for all units, but I could change the Noise or Oblits to Slaanesh for the double-fire stratagem potentially. If I was going to play the Noise that way then I'd pump the unit up a bit to maybe 8/9 models.
13CP too which isn't bad, I can spend 1 on an extra relic and 2 on Forward Operatives and still have 10 to play with in-game. Edit: For 1CP I could put the Giant Spawn in reserves. Having a 10 Wound, ~9 Attacks, ~9 Strength creature burst out of the ground on turn 2 or 3 behind the enemies lines...
Edit: changed lords double pistols to a Combi plasma, and added 1 noise marine. Also added stubbers and a flamed to cultists. Still 60 points spare.
3)
Same options as above, but with a Sorcerer instead of a Lord
4)
Both a Lord and a Sorcerer (This seems unlikely as it'll be expensive)
And to the person who's response to everything is "don't play it, it's not competitive", I'm not playing in the ITC I just want a unit that can dish out some pain in the average game. I don't play against try-hards.
I feel that for raptors the best loadout is just as many squads as possible. Terminators are super expensive, so what're another hundred points for Reroll Ones or for +1 to hit.
But with the Raptor Loadout being super cheap(ish) at 126 points, I think I'd rather run two-three squads of them instead of sending an HQ with them
I'm building my as 5 Man, 2 Plasma, and giving the Champion two Plasma Pistols.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: I feel that for raptors the best loadout is just as many squads as possible. Terminators are super expensive, so what're another hundred points for Reroll Ones or for +1 to hit.
But with the Raptor Loadout being super cheap(ish) at 126 points, I think I'd rather run two-three squads of them instead of sending an HQ with them
I'm building my as 5 Man, 2 Plasma, and giving the Champion two Plasma Pistols.
Because one pistol is fun, but two is Woo-tastic.
I'd say option one from your choices though.
I have to admit, from a modelling perspective, double-plasma pistols is likely to be happening on at least one model haha.
I already have a conversion in progress, which is currently somewhat borderline between either a Jump-Pack Lord/Sorcerer, or a Winged-Prince. So there will be one or the other on the table, and I figured having a retinue of raptors would be a good addition. (Could just as easily be warp talons, but with the new FAQ they seem to be in a pretty terrible place right now).
Double plas pistols is fun, but not cost-effective compared to a combi. saving just one point but losing the ability to fire at 24 (or fire with the bolter too, in case of maximum horde enemies)
Anyways, for the raptor squad, if you can afford it I'd forget about the HQ and take two plasma squads. an HQ there costs almost as much as an entire new squad, and does not provide nearly the same value.
You can cut down on cultist special weapons to save a few points for it. cultists are a bad investment for weapons, as they get instantly erased if anything looks at them funny.
BoomWolf wrote: Double plas pistols is fun, but not cost-effective compared to a combi. saving just one point but losing the ability to fire at 24 (or fire with the bolter too, in case of maximum horde enemies)
Anyways, for the raptor squad, if you can afford it I'd forget about the HQ and take two plasma squads. an HQ there costs almost as much as an entire new squad, and does not provide nearly the same value.
You can cut down on cultist special weapons to save a few points for it. cultists are a bad investment for weapons, as they get instantly erased if anything looks at them funny.
You do lose the 1 shot at 24", but then you do gain two plasma shots point blank in melee
I mean, there will still be a HQ regardless. I could however try and jiggle some points around, and drop the Lord, and instead have the Raptors be a retinue for the flying Daemon Prince.
This would mean I'd be one HQ short though, so I'd only be getting 1CP instead of 5CP for that detachment. My current HQ's for my two battallions are 2x Daemon Princes (both currently Daemons) and either a Lord or a Champion (for CSM). Considering moving a Prince to the CSM side, and adding in a cheap killy khorne HQ like Karanak.
Dactylartha wrote: I like my Karanak and he's fun to put in the warp for 1CP deep strike 9" from his quarry.
He also provides free charge rerolls to my warp talons and possessed and a cheeky heldrake.
Yeh... this is an option I hadn't considered. I'd been trying to put together a Raptor squad as a bodyguard for a Prince or jump-pack Lord, but with the Khorne locus Warp Talons might actually be usable...
Though the Raptors with plasma might still be the deadlier option... honestly not sure.
It would mean totally redesigning my Daemons detachment though.
Nurgle (All units are Nurgle):
Daemon Prince
Poxbringer
3xNurglings
3xNurglings
3xNurglings
Giant Chaos Spawn
OR
Khorne (all units are <khorne>:
Daemon Prince
Karanak
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
Giant Chaos Spawn
Means I'd lose out on the nurglings as 1st turn protection against deepstrikers etc, and I'd lose out on the 5+++ on the Prince and Giant Spawn... but instead I could deepstrike the Prince and Spawn, and they'd have a decent chance of getting into combat straight away with the charge re-roll.
Heads up, folks - they changed the rules for disembarking a Termite. Originally, it was ‘do not disembark on arrival’, now it is ‘can disembark on arrival’. That opens up a lot of possibilities. Assuming it does not farther change to ‘must disembark on arrival’, it remains an interesting flame unit delivery vehicle, with the flexibility to jump out on arrival and dare a horde to charge you and generally do Dreadclaw stuff for less.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dactylartha wrote: I like my Karanak and he's fun to put in the warp for 1CP deep strike 9" from his quarry.
He also provides free charge rerolls to my warp talons and possessed and a cheeky heldrake.
Hmm, the Possessed have reroll for 10pts, and Heldrake should have no difficulty reaching a victim. Fiends and Defilers, on the other hand... I’m magnetising banners for my Daemon Engines’ Marks of Chaos, I think all four Gods can do something interesting with them. Good old Word Bearers polytheism
Dactylartha wrote: I like my Karanak and he's fun to put in the warp for 1CP deep strike 9" from his quarry.
He also provides free charge rerolls to my warp talons and possessed and a cheeky heldrake.
Yeh... this is an option I hadn't considered. I'd been trying to put together a Raptor squad as a bodyguard for a Prince or jump-pack Lord, but with the Khorne locus Warp Talons might actually be usable...
Though the Raptors with plasma might still be the deadlier option... honestly not sure.
It would mean totally redesigning my Daemons detachment though.
Nurgle (All units are Nurgle):
Daemon Prince
Poxbringer
3xNurglings
3xNurglings
3xNurglings
Giant Chaos Spawn
OR
Khorne (all units are <khorne>:
Daemon Prince
Karanak
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
Giant Chaos Spawn
Means I'd lose out on the nurglings as 1st turn protection against deepstrikers etc, and I'd lose out on the 5+++ on the Prince and Giant Spawn... but instead I could deepstrike the Prince and Spawn, and they'd have a decent chance of getting into combat straight away with the charge re-roll.
gian chaos spawn doesn't have demon faction keyword so it cant use denizens of the warp stratagem for Ds.
Dactylartha wrote: I like my Karanak and he's fun to put in the warp for 1CP deep strike 9" from his quarry.
He also provides free charge rerolls to my warp talons and possessed and a cheeky heldrake.
Yeh... this is an option I hadn't considered. I'd been trying to put together a Raptor squad as a bodyguard for a Prince or jump-pack Lord, but with the Khorne locus Warp Talons might actually be usable...
Though the Raptors with plasma might still be the deadlier option... honestly not sure.
It would mean totally redesigning my Daemons detachment though.
Nurgle (All units are Nurgle):
Daemon Prince
Poxbringer
3xNurglings
3xNurglings
3xNurglings
Giant Chaos Spawn
OR
Khorne (all units are <khorne>:
Daemon Prince
Karanak
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
Giant Chaos Spawn
Means I'd lose out on the nurglings as 1st turn protection against deepstrikers etc, and I'd lose out on the 5+++ on the Prince and Giant Spawn... but instead I could deepstrike the Prince and Spawn, and they'd have a decent chance of getting into combat straight away with the charge re-roll.
gian chaos spawn doesn't have demon faction keyword so it cant use denizens of the warp stratagem for Ds.
Yes it does, so yes it can.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For reference:
Pages 45-56 – Faction Keywords
Add ‘Daemon’ to all these units’ Faction Keywords line
(and delete it from their Keyword line).
Drafting up an Emperor’s Children Battalion that, when collected, will form a 2K army with some Slaanesh Daemons and a hypothetical Fulgrim. No points yet, just noted I’d reached 174 Power which should comfortably accommodate those extras.
Spoiler:
HQ - Daemon Prince with Wings, Warp Bolter, Claws, Potion
- Sorcerer on Steed with combi-flamer
- Chaos Lord on Steed with combi-flamer, Murder Sword
- Dark Apostle
- Exalted Champion with Power Fist
TROOPS
- 20 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters
- 10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters
- 5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster
- 5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster
- 10 Cultists
- 20 Cultists
ELITES
- 9 Chosen with 5 Power Axes
- 9 Chosen with 5 Power Axes
- Helbrute with two fists and combi-bolters
- Helbrute with two fists and combi-bolters
FAST ATTACK
- 3 Bikers with combi-Melta, 2 Meltas
- 3 Bikers with combi-Melta, 2 Meltas
- Kharybdis
HEAVY SUPPORT
- 3 Obliterators
- 3 Obliterators
- 10 Havocs with 4 Lascannons
Chosen go in Kharybdis with DA & EC
Chaos Lord marshalls the gunline and scarecrows an enemy character
If anti-tank isn’t an issue, Kharybdis deploys and gets Warptimed into the enemy’s FACE
KAC is still a ton of fun. Ability to deploy is really cool. When anti-tank isn’t an option, I’ll deploy a Noise Marine blob in it, with the shock troops hiding in a nearby outhouse; NMs get an extra 3” reach turn one + protection from anti-infantry if first turn is lost, shock troops board and get to ride the train into a target-rich environment
Went with power axes as they’ll still do the trick against MEQ, and AP-3 swords would be redundant against stuff with a good invuln. Buuuut might go with power swords because fluff
lindsay40k wrote: Drafting up an Emperor’s Children Battalion that, when collected, will form a 2K army with some Slaanesh Daemons and a hypothetical Fulgrim. No points yet, just noted I’d reached 174 Power which should comfortably accommodate those extras.
Spoiler:
HQ - Daemon Prince with Wings, Warp Bolter, Claws, Potion
- Sorcerer on Steed with combi-flamer
- Chaos Lord on Steed with combi-flamer, Murder Sword
- Dark Apostle
- Exalted Champion with Power Fist
TROOPS
- 20 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters
- 10 Noise Marines with 2 Blastmasters
- 5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster
- 5 Noise Marines with Blastmaster
- 10 Cultists
- 20 Cultists
ELITES
- 9 Chosen with 5 Power Axes
- 9 Chosen with 5 Power Axes
- Helbrute with two fists and combi-bolters
- Helbrute with two fists and combi-bolters
FAST ATTACK
- 3 Bikers with combi-Melta, 2 Meltas
- 3 Bikers with combi-Melta, 2 Meltas
- Kharybdis
HEAVY SUPPORT
- 3 Obliterators
- 3 Obliterators
- 10 Havocs with 4 Lascannons
Chosen go in Kharybdis with DA & EC
Chaos Lord marshalls the gunline and scarecrows an enemy character
If anti-tank isn’t an issue, Kharybdis deploys and gets Warptimed into the enemy’s FACE
Wouldn’t surprise me. Fingers crossed that game’s paucity of Mark-based options other than Khorne is merely a prelude to a toll booth to the other Marks being useful - erected over a box of five easy fit Cultists & three CSMs with no special weapons options between them, and a piece of terrain covered in Imperium iconography - as opposed to Nurgle & Tzeentch abandoning the polytheist Legions and Slaanesh going to sleep.
Hi, @Khornate25 - aside from a general ‘take stuff that’s good’, particular things with IW are their excellent Relic and Warlord Trait. A Daemon Prince with that armour can take some tremendous punishment, and a Chaos Lord can do some fantastic work as a gunline marshall, making hordes of Cultists stand firm and ensuring your last Havoc never runs away.
I like to put my gunline CL on a Steed of Slaanesh and give him a Murder Sword. Extra large footprint to yell at the cannon fodder, and a fierce scarecrow for a key enemy character. His re-rolls only apply to other Slaaneshis, but that’s fine on a gunline that’ll want access to Endless Cacophony.
lindsay40k wrote: Wouldn’t surprise me. Fingers crossed that game’s paucity of Mark-based options other than Khorne is merely a prelude to a toll booth to the other Marks being useful - erected over a box of five easy fit Cultists & three CSMs with no special weapons options between them, and a piece of terrain covered in Imperium iconography - as opposed to Nurgle & Tzeentch abandoning the polytheist Legions and Slaanesh going to sleep.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It feels hard to make a fluffy but good Alpha Legion list anything other than very vanilla tournament style. Any suggestions on how to add some spice?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It feels hard to make a fluffy but good Alpha Legion list anything other than very vanilla tournament style. Any suggestions on how to add some spice?
I'm struggling in the same way. I wanted to run Alpha Legion for fluff reasons (it fits the 'story' of my army), but a lot of my units don't hugely benefit from the trait and a lot of the list options end up very vanilla-y. I considered changing to the Renegades trait, but then I lose out on relics like the Hydra.
Forgeworld and Codexaemons are two obvious options for adding some variety to a list though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It feels hard to make a fluffy but good Alpha Legion list anything other than very vanilla tournament style. Any suggestions on how to add some spice?
Why not do a Daemonkin list? Slaanesh and Nurgle have acces to auras that enable Daemon engines to execute T1 charges. Being able to have Possessed start up in the enemy’s face adds an extra quiver to the Epidemius or Huggy Fiends route. Deploying units up close gives Tzeentch buff spells something to work on, and Changeling compounds the Trait for solid anvils.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It feels hard to make a fluffy but good Alpha Legion list anything other than very vanilla tournament style. Any suggestions on how to add some spice?
Why not do a Daemonkin list? Slaanesh and Nurgle have acces to auras that enable Daemon engines to execute T1 charges. Being able to have Possessed start up in the enemy’s face adds an extra quiver to the Epidemius or Huggy Fiends route. Deploying units up close gives Tzeentch buff spells something to work on, and Changeling compounds the Trait for solid anvils.
What Auras does nurgle have that gives engines a T1 charge? all the auras I can remember give +1S or things like extra attacks but only specifically for plaguewalkers or nurglings. I can't even think of anything much for slaanesh. The Khorne Locus is the only thing I can think of that would effect daemon engines, giving them rerollable charges (which is pretty good and something I'm considering myself, but it means losing out on psychic powers).
cool.
) as a d-carnifex. ended up my enemy took the 354 point bait, and on my turn i collapsed 18 berzerkers and a daemon prince from the left!
