- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.
Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.
Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.
kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)
I line up units in the back of my deployment zone and screen them with Cultists at a distance of about half an inch.
Sticking out 4 inches max, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a chance to reach them, not much else. Other than the Predators, a single unit has at most 2 Lascannons. So it's not like anyone is taking down the gunline.
Desubot wrote: Welp looks like my warp talons wont be deepstriking anytime soon.
weaksauce.
Good thing i just got 10 painted up and them warptiming in super buffed was my game plan☹
In a similar boat: just got 5 converted WE terminators built and painted with the intention of having them charge in with warptime and prescience to make them, well, good.
Hmm, Im actually pleased I am unaffected by alot of these "Nerfs" Never used Warptime, or Bloodletter Bombs. Always felt Poxwalker Farm took too much investment and momentum. Only used Tide of Traitors once per game anyways due to CP restrictions I did enjoy the Stackable FNPIW Prince, but Ive moved on from that build a while ago in favor of CD Princes and their Locus. I do have a Gnarlmaw, but I havent painted it, nor played it yet. The 50 pts did seem like a steal. Now it IS just a better Aegis Defense Line. Dont use Soup since why lose Locus/Tactics and Strategems.
Now I do like to Alpha Oblits with a Nurgle Herald, but about half my games I forget to deploy them Turn 1 by mistake anyhow.
And with my usual Double Battalion lists, I no longer have to choose between spending CP on Tide of Traitors, Revolting regeneration, or a second Endless Cacophany. I daresay my list might have even improved.
I'm ready pleased with the ability to take chainswords on my chosen now. A couple of units with bolters, chainswords and the Icon of wrath will work really nicely in a Renegades army. Taking power weapons on them is a total trap though, as Berzerkers as still far far better in close combat.
Double power scourge Helbrutes are freaking whirlwinds of death! 11 attacks because of battering onslaught.
My terminator plasma warptime bomb got nerfed so that it's turn 2 onwards but honestly it's not that bad. Now I'll just take Delightful Agonies instead of warptime and shrug off anything that gets thrown at them.
I'm very seriously considering a Spartan now. For 120 points more than a Land Raider you get +15 transport, 4 extra lascannons and you will never die. Terminators probably aren't strong enough to bother but 20 berzerkers with HQ support sounds pretty nice.
Summoning gets more interesting too now because of the soup and deep strike changes. Now you can get your bloodletter or horror bombs in the same turn as someone who deep strikes them.
While this FAQ hurts us a bit overall it's a big buff. We can still soup well and lots of other armies got nerfed heavily.
I know a few of my local gamers will be unhappy to hear the Fire Frenzy Stratagem no longer work on Leviathans.
I always knew that the GW Stratagems were not made with FW units in mind... Just look at the Dark Eldar Tantalus. With the Dark Creed Character killing Stratagem, you can turn a transport boat into a 12 shot, 36" range, S8 AP-3 D2 sniper rifle.
lindsay40k wrote: @the.cobb - Warp Talons want Warptime and/or Mark of Khorne + allied Herald (re-roll charges) to be effective. A really sneaky trick is to take two Sorcerers; one has Warptime, the o5er doesn’t. Have them a distance apart; your opponent assumes the WTime one is going to tag in the WTals and respond to that, then in your turn you use the Familiar Stratagem to give the other one Warptime and hit an area with less DTW coverage and screening that’s not prepared for WTals
A Daemons Patrol with Karanak and some cheap Bloodletters is a great source of Khornate Daemon Marines re-rolling charges. (I think a Decimator can take a Butcher Cannon? Great unit) Can even make him your Warlord for an additional Morale hit, though he’s not difficult to kill.
You’ll be wanting to hit several units a turn with multiple morale attacks, as focussing on one can be dealt with via Insane Bravery. Also, try to approach your morale sapping ability as a bonus, rather than a primary attack, as Tyranids and similar will laugh it off :(
@Lindsay40k thanks for the trick I'll remember that. I think I'll go the warptime route; if my local gaming group ends up being super competitive I might look at mixing in some daemon fun, but at the moment my social group aren't into hyper-tuned lists so sticking closer to the fluff I want to focus on is okay.
I'll remember to hit multiple units; that's a great point. I had built a list based on an alpha strike but I might rejig to go for chaff clearing and multiple moral overload.
Gonna mathhammer some ideas for taking out synapse creatures to deal with Tyranids, I'll have a good read of the Tyranids codex and their tactics thread for some ideas. At this point I had thought of maybe grabbing a few units of renegade mauraders with sniper rifles just to mess with things. Don't really expect them to do a great deal though; 3 units is only 0.666 sniper mortal wounds and comes in over 100pts for 5-model units. So maybe something to do for fun and flavour.
lindsay40k wrote: @the.cobb - Warp Talons want Warptime and/or Mark of Khorne + allied Herald (re-roll charges) to be effective. A really sneaky trick is to take two Sorcerers; one has Warptime, the o5er doesn’t. Have them a distance apart; your opponent assumes the WTime one is going to tag in the WTals and respond to that, then in your turn you use the Familiar Stratagem to give the other one Warptime and hit an area with less DTW coverage and screening that’s not prepared for WTals
A Daemons Patrol with Karanak and some cheap Bloodletters is a great source of Khornate Daemon Marines re-rolling charges. (I think a Decimator can take a Butcher Cannon? Great unit) Can even make him your Warlord for an additional Morale hit, though he’s not difficult to kill.
You’ll be wanting to hit several units a turn with multiple morale attacks, as focussing on one can be dealt with via Insane Bravery. Also, try to approach your morale sapping ability as a bonus, rather than a primary attack, as Tyranids and similar will laugh it off :(
@Lindsay40k thanks for the trick I'll remember that. I think I'll go the warptime route; if my local gaming group ends up being super competitive I might look at mixing in some daemon fun, but at the moment my social group aren't into hyper-tuned lists so sticking closer to the fluff I want to focus on is okay.
I'll remember to hit multiple units; that's a great point. I had built a list based on an alpha strike but I might rejig to go for chaff clearing and multiple moral overload.
Gonna mathhammer some ideas for taking out synapse creatures to deal with Tyranids, I'll have a good read of the Tyranids codex and their tactics thread for some ideas. At this point I had thought of maybe grabbing a few units of renegade mauraders with sniper rifles just to mess with things. Don't really expect them to do a great deal though; 3 units is only 0.666 sniper mortal wounds and comes in over 100pts for 5-model units. So maybe something to do for fun and flavour.
Anyway, thanks for the ideas
Unfortunately, now you can't warptime thing that just arrived from reserved, so warp talons, raptors, terminators, etc, are all equally SOoL.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I know a few of my local gamers will be unhappy to hear the Fire Frenzy Stratagem no longer work on Leviathans.
I always knew that the GW Stratagems were not made with FW units in mind... Just look at the Dark Eldar Tantalus. With the Dark Creed Character killing Stratagem, you can turn a transport boat into a 12 shot, 36" range, S8 AP-3 D2 sniper rifle.
It didn't work because it referenced the Helbrute datasheet rather than the Helbrute keyword. It was pretty clear. Stratagems DO work on FW units just like they would on GW ones, just not in this instance.
lindsay40k wrote: @the.cobb - Warp Talons want Warptime and/or Mark of Khorne + allied Herald (re-roll charges) to be effective. A really sneaky trick is to take two Sorcerers; one has Warptime, the o5er doesn’t. Have them a distance apart; your opponent assumes the WTime one is going to tag in the WTals and respond to that, then in your turn you use the Familiar Stratagem to give the other one Warptime and hit an area with less DTW coverage and screening that’s not prepared for WTals
A Daemons Patrol with Karanak and some cheap Bloodletters is a great source of Khornate Daemon Marines re-rolling charges. (I think a Decimator can take a Butcher Cannon? Great unit) Can even make him your Warlord for an additional Morale hit, though he’s not difficult to kill.
You’ll be wanting to hit several units a turn with multiple morale attacks, as focussing on one can be dealt with via Insane Bravery. Also, try to approach your morale sapping ability as a bonus, rather than a primary attack, as Tyranids and similar will laugh it off :(
@Lindsay40k thanks for the trick I'll remember that. I think I'll go the warptime route; if my local gaming group ends up being super competitive I might look at mixing in some daemon fun, but at the moment my social group aren't into hyper-tuned lists so sticking closer to the fluff I want to focus on is okay.
I'll remember to hit multiple units; that's a great point. I had built a list based on an alpha strike but I might rejig to go for chaff clearing and multiple moral overload.
Gonna mathhammer some ideas for taking out synapse creatures to deal with Tyranids, I'll have a good read of the Tyranids codex and their tactics thread for some ideas. At this point I had thought of maybe grabbing a few units of renegade mauraders with sniper rifles just to mess with things. Don't really expect them to do a great deal though; 3 units is only 0.666 sniper mortal wounds and comes in over 100pts for 5-model units. So maybe something to do for fun and flavour.
Anyway, thanks for the ideas
Unfortunately, now you can't warptime thing that just arrived from reserved, so warp talons, raptors, terminators, etc, are all equally SOoL.
You can start raptors on the board. Warp talons are probably too expensive though unless you can safely keep them outside line of sight.
Renegades battalion
Chaos lord on bike, plasma, lightning claw
Sorcerer w/ jumpack, force axe, warptime, priecenece
3x10 cultists
3 bikes w combi flamer, 2 flamers
10 warptalons
Defiler, autocannon, scourge
Maulerfiend
3 oblits
Idea was to drop a castle around the gnarlmaw with plaguebearers, oblits, talons, sorcerer, herald and prince. Buff the talons with warptime, virulent blessing, maybe priecenece. Then pop vetrans for +2 to wound and 2 damage on a 4, 3damage on 5,6 rerolling cause of lightning claws. Usually able to pop a tank or 2 and tie up as many other units as possible.
With the new faq and beta the whole team comes in turn 2 and the talons cant hide behind a ring of plaguebearers. So i am forced to hit the closest unit rather than jumping over screens. Seems like a pretty big gamble now with the 9" charge into a screen vs the 6" charge of casting warptime and getting toncharge whatever i want. I am at a loss of how to rebuild my army. The whole army got nerfed by 16-25% losing turn one deepstrike/ turn 1 protection from shooting.
*edit* I cant read, you still need half your stuff on the board, the power level thing is just an additional restriction. Alpha Legion is going to be even more popular than it already is though. Ignoring deepstrike turn 2 limitations with its stratagem and -1 to hit keeping it safer from ranged opponents taking less chaff and more artillery. I see a lot of groaning about that -1 hit army rule, and can understand the annoyance when it’s stacked with other stuff like fliers, but honestly it’s pretty important in an even more long range driven meta.
The question I have is, what are everyone's thoughts that has them completely panicing and abandoning the idea of deep striking as a tactic? I ask because I feel there's a point I'm missing perhaps. I get the fact that my transports and units starting on the board will be in a more precarious situation given that I have to wait longer to bring in my DS'ing distractions, which sucks. As someone who plays an assault army and deep strikes units in on their first and second turns, I'm not a fan of the beta changes to deep striking naturally. I've never used alpha striking as a tactic to end a game as quick as I can, I've used it as a screen to allow my transports to move up the board. With that in mind I do see a lot of people that are completely abandoning units and tactics. I do still see utility in the fact that I have to wait until turn 2 to deep strike (and to be honest, there were some games where I found myself better suited for a turn 2 deep strike). What predictions does the community have regarding reactions from other armies and rosters? I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to completely abandon ship on my deep striking units and tactics..
Badablack wrote: So the Alpha Legion stratagem isn’t affected by this, correct? And deepstriking has been changed to require 50% of total power level as the ratio instead of units?
If I’m taking a superheavy like a Lord of Skulls, the changes almost resemble a buff. That’s a lot of infiltrating Berzerkers and cultists without much I need to deploy in my starting zone. 2 battalions and a superheavy Detachment is 13 command points; A rhino with HQs and a CSM squad behind the superheavy, then about 900 points of whatever feels right to deploy up in their face.
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a terrifying deathstar, best taken in large units that are uniquely able to bypass screens and entangle large swathes of the enemy, able to work in any daemonkin list
Post spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a niche gimmick unit, best taken in MSU with MoK to have as many chances as possible to execute a charge before they get blown away as quickly as footslogging Berzerkers
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are really good. Really, really good. Why are you even bothering with a different Legion, other than for things like Renegade Bikers rushdown?
Post spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are now uniquely positioned to employ tested and proven alpha strike strats, in a metagame in which 90% of anti-alpha strike measures are going to stand down
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is essentially a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem
Post spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is a dropship that can function as a guided nuke after it has done the job of delivering units, costed as a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem
Pre spring 18 FAQ: summoning is gimmicky rubbish useless for anything other than recouping unused Horror splitting reinforcement points to reinforces a failing screen
Post spring 18 FAQ: summoning has two gimmicky uses
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are remarkably cheap CP sources
Post spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are incredibly cheap CP sources
lindsay40k wrote: Pre spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a terrifying deathstar, best taken in large units that are uniquely able to bypass screens and entangle large swathes of the enemy, able to work in any daemonkin list
Post spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a niche gimmick unit, best taken in MSU with MoK to have as many chances as possible to execute a charge before they get blown away as quickly as footslogging Berzerkers
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are really good. Really, really good. Why are you even bothering with a different Legion, other than for things like Renegade Bikers rushdown?
Post spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are now uniquely positioned to employ tested and proven alpha strike strats, in a metagame in which 90% of anti-alpha strike measures are going to stand down
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is essentially a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem
Post spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is a dropship that can function as a guided nuke after it has done the job of delivering units, costed as a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem
Pre spring 18 FAQ: summoning is gimmicky rubbish useless for anything other than recouping unused Horror splitting reinforcement points to reinforces a failing screen
Post spring 18 FAQ: summoning has two gimmicky uses
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are remarkably cheap CP sources
Post spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are incredibly cheap CP sources
lindsay40k wrote: Pre spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a terrifying deathstar, best taken in large units that are uniquely able to bypass screens and entangle large swathes of the enemy, able to work in any daemonkin list
Post spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a niche gimmick unit, best taken in MSU with MoK to have as many chances as possible to execute a charge before they get blown away as quickly as footslogging Berzerkers
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are really good. Really, really good. Why are you even bothering with a different Legion, other than for things like Renegade Bikers rushdown?
Post spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are now uniquely positioned to employ tested and proven alpha strike strats, in a metagame in which 90% of anti-alpha strike measures are going to stand down
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is essentially a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem
Post spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is a dropship that can function as a guided nuke after it has done the job of delivering units, costed as a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem
Pre spring 18 FAQ: summoning is gimmicky rubbish useless for anything other than recouping unused Horror splitting reinforcement points to reinforces a failing screen
Post spring 18 FAQ: summoning has two gimmicky uses
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are remarkably cheap CP sources
Post spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are incredibly cheap CP sources
You forgot that Horrors and Bloodletters went from effective ways of clearing out chaff and distracting your opponent before your other assault units made it up the board, to situational counter attack units.
eternalxfl wrote: The question I have is, what are everyone's thoughts that has them completely panicing and abandoning the idea of deep striking as a tactic? I ask because I feel there's a point I'm missing perhaps. I get the fact that my transports and units starting on the board will be in a more precarious situation given that I have to wait longer to bring in my DS'ing distractions, which sucks. As someone who plays an assault army and deep strikes units in on their first and second turns, I'm not a fan of the beta changes to deep striking naturally. I've never used alpha striking as a tactic to end a game as quick as I can, I've used it as a screen to allow my transports to move up the board. With that in mind I do see a lot of people that are completely abandoning units and tactics. I do still see utility in the fact that I have to wait until turn 2 to deep strike (and to be honest, there were some games where I found myself better suited for a turn 2 deep strike). What predictions does the community have regarding reactions from other armies and rosters? I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to completely abandon ship on my deep striking units and tactics..
My thoughts are that it's a beta rule. Ultimately, the decision whether or not to keep it will probably have something to do with tournament organizers.
Tell tournament organizers not to implement the beta rule. Tell them you don't like it and believe it will cripple your enjoyment of the game. If enough people make a fuss, GW will get rid of it.
In a way, it's nice that GW is actually playtesting changes like this on a mass scale. Give them points for trying.
This change to deep strike makes the weaker armies weaker and the stronger armies stronger. Armies that were unplayable until this edition are going to be hit hard. The game is not better off by crippling armies.
Most likely they will tweak the rule a tiny bit, most likely by saying if you deepstrike and move again you can’t charge as that seems to be what most people are worried about. I don’t know about many units that deepstruck and moved to be able to shoot. Only thousand sons with flamers.
I think they wanted to deepstrike charging to become relatively risky affairs and only have rerrolls be the way to mitigate that.
I’m the end I don’t think it crippled armies, you’ll have to change the way you play and it wil lead to players who use deepstrike to have really durable units on the board to start.
eternalxfl wrote: The question I have is, what are everyone's thoughts that has them completely panicing and abandoning the idea of deep striking as a tactic? I ask because I feel there's a point I'm missing perhaps. I get the fact that my transports and units starting on the board will be in a more precarious situation given that I have to wait longer to bring in my DS'ing distractions, which sucks. As someone who plays an assault army and deep strikes units in on their first and second turns, I'm not a fan of the beta changes to deep striking naturally. I've never used alpha striking as a tactic to end a game as quick as I can, I've used it as a screen to allow my transports to move up the board. With that in mind I do see a lot of people that are completely abandoning units and tactics. I do still see utility in the fact that I have to wait until turn 2 to deep strike (and to be honest, there were some games where I found myself better suited for a turn 2 deep strike). What predictions does the community have regarding reactions from other armies and rosters? I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to completely abandon ship on my deep striking units and tactics..
My thoughts are that it's a beta rule. Ultimately, the decision whether or not to keep it will probably have something to do with tournament organizers.
Tell tournament organizers not to implement the beta rule. Tell them you don't like it and believe it will cripple your enjoyment of the game. If enough people make a fuss, GW will get rid of it.
In a way, it's nice that GW is actually playtesting changes like this on a mass scale. Give them points for trying.
This change to deep strike makes the weaker armies weaker and the stronger armies stronger. Armies that were unplayable until this edition are going to be hit hard. The game is not better off by crippling armies.
Agreed. I personally don't like the changes, but it also felt very powerful to be able to deep strike and charge on turn 1. Whether the changes are good or bad, the most notable thing for me is GW's new attitude. I say new because I haven't played Warhammer in a couple years and so this is the first time I've ever seen them post an errata that clearly said "are these changes good? Tell us what you think."
demontalons wrote: Most likely they will tweak the rule a tiny bit, most likely by saying if you deepstrike and move again you can’t charge as that seems to be what most people are worried about. I don’t know about many units that deepstruck and moved to be able to shoot. Only thousand sons with flamers.
I think they wanted to deepstrike charging to become relatively risky affairs and only have rerrolls be the way to mitigate that.
I’m the end I don’t think it crippled armies, you’ll have to change the way you play and it wil lead to players who use deepstrike to have really durable units on the board to start.
Having said that this really helps tau
So the need to place really durable units on the board to start is the situation I'm looking at now. As a World Eaters and Khorne Daemons player, what are my options? I imagine some unit(s) with high toughness, invuln save, to hit modifiers to start. Bonus points for something with ranged firepower to start poking holes in enemy screens. I've already got 2 rhino's on the board full of berserkers, those have, and will continue to get nuked turns 1 and 2 even with smoke deployed. What recommendations to players have to endure the first 2 turns of shooting?
So I have been thinking with the nerf to the DS, Alpha legion our Oblits may seem like a better option. So here is my thoughts. you Forward op your 40 man cultist bomb and then forward op your 2-3 oblit units in cover but in range to do some damage. granted this is on the basis that you are going first but at the same time 1+ save oblits are going to be hard to kill.
To be hardcore raw, can we even mix daemons and csm? The faction keyword in the daemon codex is “allegiance” in the csm book “mark of chaos”. Sure the options are predetermined but are allegiance Khorne identical to mark: Khorne (as per faq simply naming two things the same isn’t enough, they must share chapter, legion, Forgeworld whatever)? The reason I’m asking is that the faq text critiques the daemon/csm mix and guard/space marine mix and then makes the latter illegal. Is non spawning daemons for csm still an option?
For my WE + Daemons, I'll be playing around with Renegades to create a "tough" deployment zone. I haven't completely given up on my Bloodletter Bombs because the very idea of them is enough to dictate certain moves from my opponent and they're still pretty cheaper, "cheaper" still due to the increased CP I'll be getting. Thinking three battalions, WE + Daemons + Renegades. Renegades have some long / mid range shooting, WE in Rhinos, Flesh Hound screen, Bloodletters deep strike in. Just have to get more bodies on the table than my opponent can shoot off turn one.
Lucky for me my regular opponent is Tau so I'll be able to cut my teeth on the hardest jawbreaker possible.
Gremmer wrote: To be hardcore raw, can we even mix daemons and csm? The faction keyword in the daemon codex is “allegiance” in the csm book “mark of chaos”. Sure the options are predetermined but are allegiance Khorne identical to mark: Khorne (as per faq simply naming two things the same isn’t enough, they must share chapter, legion, Forgeworld whatever)? The reason I’m asking is that the faq text critiques the daemon/csm mix and guard/space marine mix and then makes the latter illegal. Is non spawning daemons for csm still an option?
Maybe I misread it, but what I thought it said was that what was now illegal was the mixing of CSM and Guard, not SM and guard.
andysonic1 wrote: For my WE + Daemons, I'll be playing around with Renegades to create a "tough" deployment zone. I haven't completely given up on my Bloodletter Bombs because the very idea of them is enough to dictate certain moves from my opponent and they're still pretty cheaper, "cheaper" still due to the increased CP I'll be getting. Thinking three battalions, WE + Daemons + Renegades. Renegades have some long / mid range shooting, WE in Rhinos, Flesh Hound screen, Bloodletters deep strike in. Just have to get more bodies on the table than my opponent can shoot off turn one.
Lucky for me my regular opponent is Tau so I'll be able to cut my teeth on the hardest jawbreaker possible.
What options long / mid range shooting options do Renegades have that WE don't?
Gremmer wrote: To be hardcore raw, can we even mix daemons and csm? The faction keyword in the daemon codex is “allegiance” in the csm book “mark of chaos”. Sure the options are predetermined but are allegiance Khorne identical to mark: Khorne (as per faq simply naming two things the same isn’t enough, they must share chapter, legion, Forgeworld whatever)? The reason I’m asking is that the faq text critiques the daemon/csm mix and guard/space marine mix and then makes the latter illegal. Is non spawning daemons for csm still an option?
andysonic1 wrote: For my WE + Daemons, I'll be playing around with Renegades to create a "tough" deployment zone. I haven't completely given up on my Bloodletter Bombs because the very idea of them is enough to dictate certain moves from my opponent and they're still pretty cheaper, "cheaper" still due to the increased CP I'll be getting. Thinking three battalions, WE + Daemons + Renegades. Renegades have some long / mid range shooting, WE in Rhinos, Flesh Hound screen, Bloodletters deep strike in. Just have to get more bodies on the table than my opponent can shoot off turn one.
Lucky for me my regular opponent is Tau so I'll be able to cut my teeth on the hardest jawbreaker possible.
What options long / mid range shooting options do Renegades have that WE don't?
Seeing as I don't take guns on my World Eaters, 100% more options.
But to be more serious: you're correct that I can take WE legion ranged weaponry like Preds, Havocs, Batteries, and more. My problem with that is they do not benefit from being World Eaters at all. Renegades cost less for more bodies. My current problem isn't that I can't kill big / tough things (Berzerkers, Daemon Prince, and Bloodletters kill these all day long). My current problem is killing chaff and surviving incoming firepower. 165 points of Havocs (1 unit with 4 missile launchers) vs 144 points of Renegade Heavy Weapons Squads (3 units with 6 teams each, all mortars), the Heavy Weapons Squads will deal more damage to chaff per turn, take up a huge portion of my deployment zone, and don't need line of sight. A slight breeze will kill them all, however, but pressing them against my deployment back edge I'm sure they will survive turn one at least. And that's just the start of their forces. I'm thinking about squeezing in a Brigade and then going nuts with the artifacts, deep strike, and other stratagems for my WE + Daemons, but that might be pushing it.
I could always take Plasma Havocs (132 points) or Plasma Chosen + Chainswords (147 points), but I don't need MORE glass cannons, I need bodies to stay on the board until my main force arrives and I need a landing zone cleared for that force. Renegades kill two birds with one stone in that regard.
Seeing as I don't take guns on my World Eaters, 100% more options.
But to be more serious: you're correct that I can take WE legion ranged weaponry like Preds, Havocs, Batteries, and more. My problem with that is they do not benefit from being World Eaters at all. Renegades cost less for more bodies. My current problem isn't that I can't kill big / tough things (Berzerkers, Daemon Prince, and Bloodletters kill these all day long). My current problem is killing chaff and surviving incoming firepower. 165 points of Havocs (1 unit with 4 missile launchers) vs 144 points of Renegade Heavy Weapons Squads (3 units with 6 teams each, all mortars), the Heavy Weapons Squads will deal more damage to chaff per turn, take up a huge portion of my deployment zone, and don't need line of sight. A slight breeze will kill them all, however, but pressing them against my deployment back edge I'm sure they will survive turn one at least. And that's just the start of their forces. I'm thinking about squeezing in a Brigade and then going nuts with the artifacts, deep strike, and other stratagems for my WE + Daemons, but that might be pushing it.
I could always take Plasma Havocs (132 points) or Plasma Chosen + Chainswords (147 points), but I don't need MORE glass cannons, I need bodies to stay on the board until my main force arrives and I need a landing zone cleared for that force. Renegades kill two birds with one stone in that regard.
Ah, R&H, I mistook you for the Renegade legions such as CrimsonSlaughter and such!
Ah, honest mistake when nearly everything has the word Renegade in it. If I was taking Renegades Legion I would take Bikes and run first turn charges to try and eliminate some chaff, but it's waaaay too many points to blow on that.
andysonic1 wrote: Ah, honest mistake when nearly everything has the word Renegade in it. If I was taking Renegades Legion I would take Bikes and run first turn charges to try and eliminate some chaff, but it's waaaay too many points to blow on that.
God chaff is annoying in 8th.
How are you running the bikes?
was contemplating 3 bikes with flamer flamer combi flamer and 3 combi bolters for large amounts of anti infantry dakka. might want to replace the combi bolters on the bike instead considering renegade running up loses out on the rapid fire weapons.
depending on the situation it could be 12 shots at bs 3 2 shots at bs 4 and 3d6 flamers with 6 wounds on a t5 body, for about a buck.
Honestly I was just thinking about driving them directly into the enemy lines full speed, no extra guns, in MSU. 7 chainsword attacks aren't going to deal much damage (how I long for Hammer of Wrath) but you've got units up in front of the enemy's face. Bikes aren't doing much right now for any legion, might as well be suicide bombers lol.
Mmmmm maybe. i dunno you are spending a decent amount on the t5 and movement.
two flamers already on average do better than the chainswords outside of cover...... it is kinda counter intuitive in that they could just pull the chaff from the front though so its kinda driving me nuts a bit. (but then the chaff could just walk away leaving a relatively easy first blood unit right in front of them possibly...)
also debating converting them out of the new custode bikes since they look way cooler. or just nabbing some outriders from FW or whatever they are called.
Yeah welcome to the hell. At this point I'm about ready to MSU and run up the board full sprint with 200 bodies. Kill me see if I care I'm still coming to get you.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah welcome to the hell. At this point I'm about ready to MSU and run up the board full sprint with 200 bodies. Kill me see if I care I'm still coming to get you.
I have used that strategy before. Pre-daemons codex I ran about 70 bloodletters, 60 cultists, 30 Berzerkers and a load of infantry HQs to buff them. My opponent was admech, and literally could not throw enough dice my way to kill me.
Also, I LOVE Bikers with plasma. An MSU of Chaos Bikers with 2 plasma guns and a combi-plasma on the champ deals a fantastic amount of damage, and mixed with the bike's combi-bolter, you get a loooad of shots too.
I used a 5 man unit Renegade bikers for a bit last year with triple flamers and chainswords that I used to tie up and kill chaff. It worked OK but not great. One thing to keep in mind re bikers is that they do more damage and are more resilient than CSMs except against multi damage weapons.
I am working on a unit of raptors that I plan on footslogging (jetslogging??) with IoW and some plasma pistols. My idea is basically to use them as a close quarters force to reach and clear hard to access objectives.
Does anyone have any more thoughts on summoning now? I still don't really see it working for cc units because Khorne wants its Locus and the banner stratagem. Pinks could work well though because they don't care about being outside 9".
Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.
I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.
How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.
Yea for Obliterators I really don't feel like much has changed minus the 2nd turn drop. Ideally you want to cause some backfield commotion for your opponent which may or may not be possible depending on how much work you get done on your first turn, and if there's a landing pad for their deep strike. With their 24" range though I think that in a worst case you still have incentive to drop them in some ruins midfield to throw out some ranged firepower.
techsoldaten wrote: Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.
I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.
How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.
They're still solid. As many people have said, chaff and screens should be less prevalent now, so you may be able to have better drop zones; people seem to forget, a good T2 deep strike can do a lot of damage. Obliterators also don't need to worry about being in that 9" goldilocks zone to attempt a charge like most DS units.
techsoldaten wrote: Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.
I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.
How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.
They're still solid. As many people have said, chaff and screens should be less prevalent now, so you may be able to have better drop zones[..]
Actually, thats an interesting thought - maybe with the nerf to Deepstriking, chaff becomes less appealing. Personally i hope so.
With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?
Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?
Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.
Can you put 2 individual units inside the same transport vehicle?
fishwaffle2232 wrote: With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?
Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.
Can you put 2 individual units inside the same transport vehicle?
You should be able to - lord knows that's what I've been doing in all the games I've played. I've not seen anything, or anyone, that's said otherwise.
techsoldaten wrote: Summoning is the baby brother to a Khorne Daemon detachment. Bloodletters want that Banner / Locus, but 20 of them without those things are still overkill on most units.
I'm more likely to use the Daemon detachment now that Battalions get 5 CP. Pays for that banner, Denziens of the Warp, plus some rerolls. My concern with detachments before was that they compete with Cultists for Tide of Traitors, now not so much. At a minimum, I am going to have 15 CP to play with.
How is everyone feeling about Obliterators with the new beta rules on deep strike? I don't mind a second turn drop, but I feel like it's too easy to keep them 24 inches away from good targets.
They're still solid. As many people have said, chaff and screens should be less prevalent now, so you may be able to have better drop zones[..]
Actually, thats an interesting thought - maybe with the nerf to Deepstriking, chaff becomes less appealing. Personally i hope so.
While I would love to see less chaff, I don't think it's going anywhere. A turn 2 Obliterator deepstrike is just as lethal as a turn 1 deepstrike, you still need to deny them a good spot on the battlefield. Having a turn to move means an additional 6 + d6 inches to their bubble, I think any shooty army would want the chaff doing this while the big guns focus on shooting.
Worked on a new list last night, focused on getting up close with an opponent. A few things I think are going to matter going forward (would love to hear people's thoughts):
- Rhinos. Because they move 12 inches and controlling where your enemy can go is important. They fact they have no offense is unimportant, it's about delivering the occupants.
- Bikers. Because they are going to get up the board fast, fire a lot of shots, then charge. They are our fastest unit and just tough enough to make things hard on opponents.
- Casting Warp Time on units that are already on the board. Warptime can affect any Heretic Astartes unit, including things like Maulerfiends. Chaos is going to want to tie up as many enemy units as it can as quickly as possible.
- Renegades / Black Legion. Being able to advance and charge / shoot is going to be more important than hit modifiers
- Veterans of the Long War, which will get used more often due to getting more command points to begin with.
Khalan wrote: I've already dropped nurglings, with the deep strike changes I can just zone out using cultists turn 1.
"Zone out using cultists turn 1", as in, use tide of traitors to ambush onto your opponents back board edge turn 1? If so, I believe part of the Big rulebook FAQ ruling (page 6, top right) on this was that any units doing so are treated as reinforcements and thus cannot go outside their deployment zone on turn 1. I could be mistaken though.
While I would love to see less chaff, I don't think it's going anywhere. A turn 2 Obliterator deepstrike is just as lethal as a turn 1 deepstrike, you still need to deny them a good spot on the battlefield. Having a turn to move means an additional 6 + d6 inches to their bubble, I think any shooty army would want the chaff doing this while the big guns focus on shooting.
Worked on a new list last night, focused on getting up close with an opponent. A few things I think are going to matter going forward (would love to hear people's thoughts):
- Rhinos. Because they move 12 inches and controlling where your enemy can go is important. They fact they have no offense is unimportant, it's about delivering the occupants.
- Bikers. Because they are going to get up the board fast, fire a lot of shots, then charge. They are our fastest unit and just tough enough to make things hard on opponents.
- Casting Warp Time on units that are already on the board. Warptime can affect any Heretic Astartes unit, including things like Maulerfiends. Chaos is going to want to tie up as many enemy units as it can as quickly as possible.
- Renegades / Black Legion. Being able to advance and charge / shoot is going to be more important than hit modifiers
- Veterans of the Long War, which will get used more often due to getting more command points to begin with.
I'm on the fence with Rhino's right now. I think there's defintely good potential in them, but a smart opponent knows there's juicy bits inside that are probably important. I find that both of my Rhino's rarely make it past turn 2 (even with them blasting smokes and advance) which leaves my berserkers and plasma havoks in very precarious situations.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: With the change to chosen is anybody thinking of running them?
Correct me if im wrong but with the new rules for 2 pts each model you can take 4 combi bolter chainsword chosen per unit. Thats an extra 8 rapid fire shots with the ability to charge after with 3 close combat attacks each. Thinking either running two 5 man squads with this loadout in a rhino or a unit of 10 using forward operatives to position them favourably.
Going to put out lots of shots and still be quite stabby.
I really like the idea behind Chosen and have been thinking about how to get them to work. I think you are right that they are best with combi-bolters and chainswords for a highly offensive unit. Remember that you can have your champ swap their bolter for a combi-bolter as well, so you can have 2 5 man units in a rhino that comes to 40 bolter shots at close range. Of course, you could already do this before but now you have an extra attack to back it up.
@techsoldaten I think you are onto something good here. Rhinos are really tough for their points and if you have enough of them at least a couple will reach your enemy in tact. I think Raptors or WTs will still work with warptime but they might be too fragile so will require testing. However, I'm not sold on the Black Legion tactic because you don't get your double shots at half range if you advance, whereas most assault weapons have twice the shots to compensate for not being rapid fire.
With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?
EverlastingNewb wrote: With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?
It's tough, it's so conditional. Heldrakes are winner hands down on movement. They've also got a 5+ invuln and toughness value of 7. Playing any of the missions that have you running down the length of the board might be tough for a turn 1 charge. But any of the missions having you fly across the short span would definitely be viable for a first turn charge. The other question you get into is, how likely is my opponent to try and shoot down this tough 7 beastie? I'd say a smart opponent would put a priority tag on it, but then it depends on what other threats you have. Every turn the heldrake is alive and kicking is another turn for your units to get where they need to be. If you've got the space and points for 2 Heldrakes, I think that could be a solid bet.
Bikers can be taken in numbers and dodge and weave into LOS blocking cover, they're also easier to take out at tough 5 ( I think that's the toughness..). It's nice that they can be kitted with Plasma or melta, but if I bring bikers then I'm expecting them to die. Hopefully they can tie up some units before they do so though.
Unfortunately, I do not have experience with either of these units so it's all speculation.
EverlastingNewb wrote: With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?
It's tough, it's so conditional. Heldrakes are winner hands down on movement. They've also got a 5+ invuln and toughness value of 7. Playing any of the missions that have you running down the length of the board might be tough for a turn 1 charge. But any of the missions having you fly across the short span would definitely be viable for a first turn charge. The other question you get into is, how likely is my opponent to try and shoot down this tough 7 beastie? I'd say a smart opponent would put a priority tag on it, but then it depends on what other threats you have. Every turn the heldrake is alive and kicking is another turn for your units to get where they need to be. If you've got the space and points for 2 Heldrakes, I think that could be a solid bet.
Bikers can be taken in numbers and dodge and weave into LOS blocking cover, they're also easier to take out at tough 5 ( I think that's the toughness..). It's nice that they can be kitted with Plasma or melta, but if I bring bikers then I'm expecting them to die. Hopefully they can tie up some units before they do so though.
Unfortunately, I do not have experience with either of these units so it's all speculation.
Id say avoid the bikes unless you are running renegades. 14" of 24" (on average) is going to require you to roll that hot 10 on the charge. while with renegades you are getting a bonus 6". its also like 50 points cheaper to run a unit of 3 to do tie up work. and sure you could warp time them but i think there are way better choices to throw that on.... usually.
otherwise hands down heldrakes are better for everyone else.
Deepstrikes are delayed and that kinda bites, but it would be a great delivery system for some cult marines to park on an Objective I feel
The best thing for them to do is deliver Noise Marines or Combi-Bolter Chosen T2 as close to the opponent's deployment zone as possible and unload everything.
You COULD do T1 if your opponent is braindead and basically has no screeners or anything. However both units can be cheap enough that I think you'd be fine.
EverlastingNewb wrote: With the changes in mind, do you think Heldrakes - i.e. 2+ - would be viable as a Turn1 tie-up charge or go for bikes with Special Weapon & Chainsword instead?
It's tough, it's so conditional. Heldrakes are winner hands down on movement. They've also got a 5+ invuln and toughness value of 7. Playing any of the missions that have you running down the length of the board might be tough for a turn 1 charge. But any of the missions having you fly across the short span would definitely be viable for a first turn charge. The other question you get into is, how likely is my opponent to try and shoot down this tough 7 beastie? I'd say a smart opponent would put a priority tag on it, but then it depends on what other threats you have. Every turn the heldrake is alive and kicking is another turn for your units to get where they need to be. If you've got the space and points for 2 Heldrakes, I think that could be a solid bet.
Bikers can be taken in numbers and dodge and weave into LOS blocking cover, they're also easier to take out at tough 5 ( I think that's the toughness..). It's nice that they can be kitted with Plasma or melta, but if I bring bikers then I'm expecting them to die. Hopefully they can tie up some units before they do so though.
Unfortunately, I do not have experience with either of these units so it's all speculation.
Id say avoid the bikes unless you are running renegades. 14" of 24" (on average) is going to require you to roll that hot 10 on the charge. while with renegades you are getting a bonus 6". its also like 50 points cheaper to run a unit of 3 to do tie up work. and sure you could warp time them but i think there are way better choices to throw that on.... usually.
otherwise hands down heldrakes are better for everyone else.
That's why I didn't list Heldrakes to begin with.
Heldrakes are fast, bikers are cheap. Bikers may not have all the movement, but I'm not entirely sure they actually need to make a charge. I think they need to be in position to make a charge, and soak up some fire that would be directed at other units. They are a little more resilient than other CSM units, even 40-man Cultist squads are going to have a hard time putting them down.
Good players are still going to bubblewrap their armies. Bikers are not going to be trying up the Riptides, or even the Fire Warriors. They are going to be tying up the Kroot.
So I've been talking over something with a fellow chaos buddy of mine. This FAQ might finally be the proverbial whisper that broke the loyalists soul to get me to finally start summoning. I cannot find anything that even remotely suggest that summoning is the same as arriving from tactical reserve, even in the beta faq nonsense. So deploy a CHAOS CHARACTER last, just behind a frontline unit while allowing a full 12" summon, i.e. can land as close to an enemy as possible. Have at least a daemon patrol detatchment, though that extra 5CP is making me khorny for a double battallion... *excited angry noises*. Anyhoo, use the soul sacrifice stratagem (even CSM can do this. Only thing the FAQ restricted was using daemon keyword stratagems on non Chaos Daemons units). 4d6, with a possible extra cp to reroll to hit 17. Not only does this net extra movement for GUO and Skarbrand, but it also saves them from t1 shooting, and further allows a t1 assault, especially with Thirsters/Skarbrand due to locus. Take it a step further, and use Alpha Legion to infiltrate, then summon a GUO/D-Thirster/KoS into your opponent's backfield. Or for cheap summon fodder use R&H commanders in a supreme command detatchment as summoning fodder. Could we finally see a return of summoning to at least a plausible strategy to get our big punchy daemons upfield without having to soak a round or two of lascannons and earthshakers?
Personal experience, helldrakes rock hard. They just do. Give it a baldflamer, take 2, and a smart opponent will try and crush them first off. Now they are even stronger. I also like the idea of Renegade bikes and choosen with combi bolters and chainswords in rhinos. So many options to just bring the pain.
How do you guys handle IG? They have cheap fodder and their shooting is deadlier than ours. In fact, their artillery don't even need line of sight. So, you can't get into their deployment zone (and the new FAQ don't let you deepstrike in there anyway). And by the time you try and fight through the fodder, you would be shot to death.
And they have so many command points because battalions can give 5 apiece and its so cheap for them to form a battalion. They can use so many strategems all the time now.
I run renegades alongside my Iron Warriors, partly because I loved Storm of Iron and Dead Sky, Black Sun.
But other than my horrible taste in books, renegades bring in mostly slightly worse versions of the same stuff IG bring. Fight Artillery with Artillery.
Id say avoid the bikes unless you are running renegades. 14" of 24" (on average) is going to require you to roll that hot 10 on the charge. while with renegades you are getting a bonus 6". its also like 50 points cheaper to run a unit of 3 to do tie up work. and sure you could warp time them but i think there are way better choices to throw that on.... usually.
otherwise hands down heldrakes are better for everyone else.
I had dreams of MSU Night Lords bikers advancing up, plasma/flaming all over, killing a few more to morale, and then charging in to stay safe or more likely force a flee. Pays to read the rules properly. I guess I'll settle for the above minus the charge. Hopefully this could collapse a lot of chaff and put pressure on what is behind, then absorb a lot of firepower whilst the reminder of the army trundles up behind to do it's business. Chosen in Rhinos is looking like it'll be part of this trundle.
Hmm. Not gonna win me any grand tournaments, but will be fun to play I'm sure.
StarHunter25 wrote: So I've been talking over something with a fellow chaos buddy of mine. This FAQ might finally be the proverbial whisper that broke the loyalists soul to get me to finally start summoning. I cannot find anything that even remotely suggest that summoning is the same as arriving from tactical reserve, even in the beta faq nonsense. So deploy a CHAOS CHARACTER last, just behind a frontline unit while allowing a full 12" summon, i.e. can land as close to an enemy as possible. Have at least a daemon patrol detatchment, though that extra 5CP is making me khorny for a double battallion... *excited angry noises*. Anyhoo, use the soul sacrifice stratagem (even CSM can do this. Only thing the FAQ restricted was using daemon keyword stratagems on non Chaos Daemons units). 4d6, with a possible extra cp to reroll to hit 17. Not only does this net extra movement for GUO and Skarbrand, but it also saves them from t1 shooting, and further allows a t1 assault, especially with Thirsters/Skarbrand due to locus. Take it a step further, and use Alpha Legion to infiltrate, then summon a GUO/D-Thirster/KoS into your opponent's backfield. Or for cheap summon fodder use R&H commanders in a supreme command detatchment as summoning fodder. Could we finally see a return of summoning to at least a plausible strategy to get our big punchy daemons upfield without having to soak a round or two of lascannons and earthshakers?
This had me excited, but:
tactical reserves errata wrote:any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)
Summoning is actually even worse than it was before :/
tactical reserves errata wrote:any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)
Summoning is actually even worse than it was before :/
Given alpha strikes are much harder to pull off, finding new ways to lock down and interupt shooting lines is going to be really important.
I am starting to think Warp talons and raptors may still be somewhst useful in the post FAQ world. If you run them in an alpha legion detachment, for 1 CP you can deploy them 9 inches away from a unit you want to lock down, with 12 inch movement you are pretty much guaranteed a charge turn 1.
Obviously this relies on you going first but its cheaper than heldrake and does a similar job.
Talons maybe are the lesser option due to cost and not taking advantage of warpflame strike but they are still going to cause some havoc. Also a potential target for votlw to increase their damage even more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can also spend an extra CP and forward operative in a sorcerer or lord for some buffs and/or auras e.g. diabolic strength and prescience. For 2 CP this is going to force your opponent to deal kwith them whilst you move your other threats up the board.
Diabolic Strength only affects a single model, using it on a Squad is super niche.
Could be interesting on a Jump Pack Lord with Murder Sword against Imperium. If they don’t have DTW coverage, could stack that with Warptime for a plucky decapitation strike.
Position things well and the Lord could potentially pile in to the back of a unit the Raptors have engaged, surrounding them and cutting them down in enemy turn.
I’d budget 5CP for this. Three to FO the three units, one to reroll a duff casting attempt, one to reroll a bad charge. (Or give Raptors MoK.)
lindsay40k wrote: Diabolic Strength only affects a single model, using it on a Squad is super niche.
Could be interesting on a Jump Pack Lord with Murder Sword against Imperium. If they don’t have DTW coverage, could stack that with Warptime for a plucky decapitation strike.
Position things well and the Lord could potentially pile in to the back of a unit the Raptors have engaged, surrounding them and cutting them down in enemy turn.
I’d budget 5CP for this. Three to FO the three units, one to reroll a duff casting attempt, one to reroll a bad charge. (Or give Raptors MoK.)
My bad on diabolic strength, prescience is another option for casting. If either the lord or sorcerer survives it also gives you a good potential base for summoning if positioning allows. A unit summoned with soul sacrifice could be really nasty.
How do you guys think a Dark Mechanicus army built around hellforged and daemon engine units would do? I'm thinking Defiler spam - I'd use the other Daemon Engines but I think dinobots look silly.
I run my thousand sons that way, works really well with all the spells we can cast to make them stronger, but they will get targeted quickly and leave you with little to use. I have found that you need to really force the threat level to make it work, like using hellbrutes with fist / scourge and defilers behind them moving up, some serious scarry damage output there.
EverlastingNewb wrote: I'm maybe just blind, but i cannot find the FAQ note that Daemon Characters buff CSM Daemon units. Wasn't it in the Death Guard FAQ?
EverlastingNewb wrote: I'm maybe just blind, but i cannot find the FAQ note that Daemon Characters buff CSM Daemon units. Wasn't it in the Death Guard FAQ?
One thing i have been considering, since the nerf to our fire raptors, are the Hellforged scorpious and Rapier batteries w/ Quad Bolters. I feel that these two will help bring in the fire power we need to compete with gunlines.
One thing i have been considering, since the nerf to our fire raptors, are the Hellforged scorpious and Rapier batteries w/ Quad Bolters. I feel that these two will help bring in the fire power we need to compete with gunlines.
thoughts????
That, and if you’re taking some Obliterators then they can fill out a cheeky Spearhead for an extra CP.
Nice way to add access to CSM Stratagems if you’re mostly Daemons and DG/TS.
O hallowed heretics. What of the thousand sons mutalith and it’s buff ability to tzeentch marks? Is it worth it for any combos?
I was thinking that now with no ds til turn 2 a squad of 10 chosen with chainswords in a rhino could do some serious horde clearing. Or just go through units and depending on the buff they can get either an extra ap or strength or reroll charge from said mutalith.
Worth it or nah? Am I better off with regular csm because they’re cheaper? Or are they all too expensive and I should stick to tzaangors?
I use my mutalith with a group of tzaangors, but also have a second "optional" target to hit if/ when the gors go down.
The idea of choosen with bolt pistols, chainswords, getting -1ap thanks to the beast actually perks my interest.
Run a choose squad of 10 with swords in a rhino, advance rhino and pop smoke, cast glamor on it for -2 to hit, dark crystal up some tzaangors and a shaman, advance the beast to keep it in range, warptime and eatherstride deamon prince with wings up, that's a solid turn one charge with a solid turn 2 backup with plenty of targets for the beast to use its powers on.
So, today i had 2 games post-faq with my Renegade Chapter. Got one list with 2 Heldrakes & one with 3x5 bikes with 2 flamers each.
I've got to say, bikers are - just for me - better by a long shot. I played with a Biker-Lord with an additional Combi-Bolter & AoBF, 3 Slaanesh Steed-Heralds, Maulerfiends & 1 big blob of Possessed. Having a max. of 17 really fast combi-bolters & 6 flamers in the grills of the enemy turn 1, maybe charge if the enemy is to far away, feels really good.
Gonna test some Combi-bolter chosen next week packed in Rhino's. And i wanna test out Skarbrand in combination with Possessed.
Cool. Why did you think the helldrakes didn't do as well? Did they get shot up turn 1? (Mine always does for some reason lol)
I'm working on adding a small patrol detachment to my Tsons based off the choosen changes + mutalith vortex beast combo. Won't get to try it until next Thursday though.
D6 Damage 2 shots didn't do much & S7 attacks neither. It felt like a slighly faster, less damage dealing Maulerfiend for the prize of a edit Defiler with twin flamer
EverlastingNewb wrote: So, today i had 2 games post-faq with my Renegade Chapter. Got one list with 2 Heldrakes & one with 3x5 bikes with 2 flamers each.
I've got to say, bikers are - just for me - better by a long shot. I played with a Biker-Lord with an additional Combi-Bolter & AoBF, 3 Slaanesh Steed-Heralds, Maulerfiends & 1 big blob of Possessed. Having a max. of 17 really fast combi-bolters & 6 flamers in the grills of the enemy turn 1, maybe charge if the enemy is to far away, feels really good.
Gonna test some Combi-bolter chosen next week packed in Rhino's. And i wanna test out Skarbrand in combination with Possessed.
I like your style, Dude. I have a mob of 20 possessed I'm looking to try to run in with a storm eagle, disembark and deep strike skarbrand turn 2 and catch up with a DP of Khorne with crimson crown. Can't wait, except for skarbrand's currently headless and that storm eagle is the no-joke most frustrating kit I've ever assembled (still not compete)
EverlastingNewb wrote: D6 Damage 2 shots didn't do much & S7 attacks neither. It felt like a slighly faster, less damage dealing Maulerfiend for the prize of a edit Defiler with twin flamer
That's interesting. I have always had good luck with me hell turkey when it lives, it's killed a trygon before, taken out custodies, and been a regular pain in the rear for tau pathfinders. But it's a good point, would bikes have done just as well. . . I would have to think on that.
The Heldrake from when i've used it has usually done it's job. It absorbs a LOT of aggro and damage, and when it actually comes to blows against enemy flyers, it tears them to shreds. And now that deepstrike isn't turn 1, a 30" move is WAY stronger.
I’ve been looking for decent first turn chargers in this terrifying post-faq world, has anyone tried Slaanesh soup? Slaanesh Herald with locus on steed, with a bunch of Warp Talons or Possessed, and a Slaanesh Steed Sorcerer. If you can get off warptime that’s easily 17-20” on the Possessed, almost 30” on the Talons. Add in the rest of the Slaanesh spells and stratagems and you’ve got a big unit of 5+ FNP +2 wounding daemons that can attack twice in the next turn. Possessed probably work better, just due to costing less per wound.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been looking for decent first turn chargers in this terrifying post-faq world, has anyone tried Slaanesh soup?
Yes, erm.. 9 post up on the same page
I ran the list pre & post FAQ. Now it's just more rewarding as T-1 charges aren't that common anymore. But you don't have to run the Possessed as Slaanesh, Renegade chapter basically does the same. The bigger
bonus running a slaanesh soup is the potential T1 charge for Daemonengines, mainly Maulerfiends, Decimator & Defiler. Defiler with scourge needs Warptime, but that's still 17-22" movement before the charge.
Though the Locus of Grace isn't worth it unless you roll a 3 on the attacks for possessed & got 15-20 possessed in CQC.
Thinking bout putting a list together out of some old models I had.
Have terminators, oblits and some cultists.
Was thinking that Chaos terminators are probably best terminators so thinking bout 10x MoS combiplas terms, 3x3 oblits, cultists, Prince + other stuff (most likey stuff that just stays on the board like havocs, Plaugemarines etc. Ill see If I cant work up a list soon.
Yeah unfortunately there isn’t a way any more to guarantee a first turn charge unless you’re ok with starting on the board (and this is a bad idea if you go second)
My current list revolves around characters protected by a max plaguebearer squad (who can now have +1 invuln and auto pass morale if need be due to the increase in CP for batallions) and basically just waiting until turn 2 for everything (which I usually did for some things anyhow)
Hmm. Land Raider Terminator delivery just got more attractive, on account of WT shutdown... can we put them in a Termite?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I’m thinking about running a 2K Epidemius list. Things I like:
- Epidemius, Nurglings, Fleshy Abundance, Loci
- Oblits, Prescience
- PBC, MBD, Fugaris Helm Arch Contaminator DP - Trees for Oblits to hide from the rain under
I’m not sure if I’d expand my WB Oblits or do an Iron Warriors Spearhead. Ignores cover seems like it could be a bit niche, but then if I come up against a mirror list it would be a massive asset.
Only thing is, this means four objectives, and I’m starting to get invited along to ITC tourneys. If I’m going to build a competitive list, it’d be nice for it to be compatible. And four detachments ain’t hitting that.
Could take Horticulous, and plant the tree? It’d give me some more flexibility as to where to drop, and his big footprint plus competent melee is ok synergy so he’s not a total tax.
Alternatively, I could wave goodbye to VotLW, Familiars (I really like putting Warptime coverage in a sector my opponent had thought safe), Legion trait, etc, and put the Marines in a HERETIC ASTARTES Detachment.
Tried MSU biker units over the weekend, with T2 DS units. Warp Time is different but not useless.
The bikers tied up Guardian Squads while Obliterators and Terminators shot up Wave Serpents. I had a couple large squads of cultists marching up the board with Abaddon for support.
It was interesting from a tactical perspective, I'd wanted to try a list like this since before the FAQ. First wave of bikes tied up screens, second wave of DS units blew up a few things and the Termis took a charge once the bikers were dead. Abaddon and his merry scum came up in the rear to finish things off. I had one Sorcerer who deep struck with the Terminators and he did use Warp Time on Cultists to make a key charge possible. Nowhere near as powerful as it would have been on a deep striking unit, it's more a clutch tactic.
The game was a loss for me, but I never had the sense this wasn't working. Felt like I needed to do more with bikers / fast attack units to better screen the deep strike units. If I had another round of shooting with combi plasma, or if the Obliterators could have come in after I killed a couple screens to hit the right targets, things would have been different. My opponent was able to fall back out of range of the Obliterators a couple times because they weren't so close to their table edge.
So, pacing? Feels like that's what I was struggling with. More bikers and more anti-horde.
I'll agree that Terminators have got weaker, but in certain matched play and narrative play missions where the objective is more important, having your Terminators as some ambushing big boys is useful. In straight up death death missions, yes they are far weaker.
Besides obliterators which are softly nerfed from the new ruleset, what are the other competitive options for significant ranged fire support? Cultist spam also took a hit. I am using pinks to clear chaff (to great effect) but having some difficulties around MEQ and greater equivalents particularly when rocking -2 to hit. Fire raptor gunship has also now gone up in cost.
orkswubwub wrote: Besides obliterators which are softly nerfed from the new ruleset, what are the other competitive options for significant ranged fire support? Cultist spam also took a hit. I am using pinks to clear chaff (to great effect) but having some difficulties around MEQ and greater equivalents particularly when rocking -2 to hit. Fire raptor gunship has also now gone up in cost.
Assault Claws took a pretty huge hit. That was one of the best options for people trying to make World Eaters armies work.
orkswubwub wrote: Besides obliterators which are softly nerfed from the new ruleset, what are the other competitive options for significant ranged fire support? Cultist spam also took a hit. I am using pinks to clear chaff (to great effect) but having some difficulties around MEQ and greater equivalents particularly when rocking -2 to hit. Fire raptor gunship has also now gone up in cost.
How are the pinks working out now you can’t DS turn one? Do you just deploy them normally?
orkswubwub wrote: Besides obliterators which are softly nerfed from the new ruleset, what are the other competitive options for significant ranged fire support? Cultist spam also took a hit. I am using pinks to clear chaff (to great effect) but having some difficulties around MEQ and greater equivalents particularly when rocking -2 to hit. Fire raptor gunship has also now gone up in cost.
Assault Claws took a pretty huge hit. That was one of the best options for people trying to make World Eaters armies work.
Yup. :( Not the end of the world, but really does change everything with my list.
Did someone here ever put an Combiplasma on a Rhino with Zerkers in it, so he could drive 12" shoot Plasma overheat/explode and pop Zerkers 3,5" from the Rhino.
That would be a lucky 15,5" move with the Zerkers so they could make a 8" charge... Or is it just a half drunk idea...
Skullphoquer wrote: Did someone here ever put an Combiplasma on a Rhino with Zerkers in it, so he could drive 12" shoot Plasma overheat/explode and pop Zerkers 3,5" from the Rhino.
That would be a lucky 15,5" move with the Zerkers so they could make a 8" charge... Or is it just a half drunk idea...
It could work... but, it'd only happen ever 1/6 time (or 11/36 in rapid-fire), you'd lose some Zerkers in the explosion and you'd no longer have anything to soak up Overwatch.
Skullphoquer wrote: Did someone here ever put an Combiplasma on a Rhino with Zerkers in it, so he could drive 12" shoot Plasma overheat/explode and pop Zerkers 3,5" from the Rhino.
That would be a lucky 15,5" move with the Zerkers so they could make a 8" charge... Or is it just a half drunk idea...
What
have
you
done
Winter FAQ’s gonna have a lot to deal with
Automatically Appended Next Post: Warptime the Rhino and you’re getting two shots
Find a target with hit modifiers and that’s 55% chance of a successful fail
GG Jormungandr
Automatically Appended Next Post: This will be best abused with a means to goad opponent into deploying a screening unit
Skullphoquer wrote: Did someone here ever put an Combiplasma on a Rhino with Zerkers in it, so he could drive 12" shoot Plasma overheat/explode and pop Zerkers 3,5" from the Rhino. That would be a lucky 15,5" move with the Zerkers so they could make a 8" charge... Or is it just a half drunk idea...
It could work... but, it'd only happen ever 1/6 time (or 11/36 in rapid-fire), you'd lose some Zerkers in the explosion and you'd no longer have anything to soak up Overwatch.
Remember he could fire both barrels on the Comb-Plasma, making it 33% of the time for just one dice, or almost 50% of the time on two dice.
Skullphoquer wrote: Did someone here ever put an Combiplasma on a Rhino with Zerkers in it, so he could drive 12" shoot Plasma overheat/explode and pop Zerkers 3,5" from the Rhino.
That would be a lucky 15,5" move with the Zerkers so they could make a 8" charge... Or is it just a half drunk idea...
It could work... but, it'd only happen ever 1/6 time (or 11/36 in rapid-fire), you'd lose some Zerkers in the explosion and you'd no longer have anything to soak up Overwatch.
Remember he could fire both barrels on the Comb-Plasma, making it 33% of the time for just one dice, or almost 50% of the time on two dice.
Good point.
Go ahead then, make suicide-Rhino-rush the new meta!
Skullphoquer wrote: Did someone here ever put an Combiplasma on a Rhino with Zerkers in it, so he could drive 12" shoot Plasma overheat/explode and pop Zerkers 3,5" from the Rhino.
That would be a lucky 15,5" move with the Zerkers so they could make a 8" charge... Or is it just a half drunk idea...
It could work... but, it'd only happen ever 1/6 time (or 11/36 in rapid-fire), you'd lose some Zerkers in the explosion and you'd no longer have anything to soak up Overwatch.
Remember he could fire both barrels on the Comb-Plasma, making it 33% of the time for just one dice, or almost 50% of the time on two dice.
Good point.
Go ahead then, make suicide-Rhino-rush the new meta!
I weep to have participated in the genesis of such glory.
orkswubwub wrote: Besides obliterators which are softly nerfed from the new ruleset, what are the other competitive options for significant ranged fire support? Cultist spam also took a hit. I am using pinks to clear chaff (to great effect) but having some difficulties around MEQ and greater equivalents particularly when rocking -2 to hit. Fire raptor gunship has also now gone up in cost.
How are the pinks working out now you can’t DS turn one? Do you just deploy them normally?
Depends what I'm against and their deployment. I try to keep pinks to the end to decide. If they are putting a lot on the line and it seems I have fewer drops then I will put em on the table and be able to hit fairly easily with the 30 inch threat range (more if I advance). If they are running 10x3 zerkers in Alpha deployment or IG with 50+ mortors I will put them in deepstrike and either come down turn 1 if they move in fast (genestealers etc.) or turn 2 if they are staying back (IG etc.). Has worked well for me so far with 30 pinks, daemonspark and flickering flames. The flickering + DS combo does wonders against t3 type models.
This is a hilarious development. They’ll have to fix the stupid overheat rule to prevent it, no? Or maybe prevent passengers from charging when their transport blows up. The latter seems more likely.
Right. Here’s the best iteration I’ve been able to come up with:
- Death Guard units: flying Daemon Prince (or Mort), Squad in Rhino with Combi-Plasma (Possessed are good for Epidemius larks, Spewer/Belcher squad is also good, Poxwalkers could have had absolutely hilarious potential prior to their nerf)
- CSM units: at least two Rhinos containing units with Icons of Wrath; four seem feasible and ideal. Warpflamer Rubrics and certain Chosen builds are good as well
- Any Legion units: three Vindicators (can you see where this is leading?); a Warptimer (Daemon keyword is handy, for access to the CD rerolls Stratagem)
- Whatever we’re meant to call a Herald of Tzeentch these days, with Gaze of Fate (this can be summoned, but if you’re getting clever with Stratagems then a Daemon Detachment is an asset)
- Buckets of CP
If the stars align, and enemy units deploy in your face, the following can contribute:
- deployed Kharybdis (now, hear me out)
- Lord of Change/Ahriman/Magnus getting closer with Infernal Gateway (can double up as your Warptimer, but ideally that model is keeping away from DTW coverage; likewise, Gazer of Fate wants to be bunkering)
Right. You deploy with the four Rhinos up tight. Right behind them, there’s the plasma rhino and Daemon Prince. The Vindicators deploy in a fairly dispersed fashion, hogging cover is possible. They don’t need to be in range of the enemy turn one. They just need need to rendezvous.
I can’t believe I’m typing this.
If you’re going ahead with Kharybdises and Infernal Gateway, they should be flanking this formation.
Warp help me, this is terrible. If it’s any consolation, these are mostly decent enough units that it won’t be terrible when this gets shut down.
You Advance with each of the front Rhinos. If you didn’t get first turn, don’t worry. There should be enough left to make this work. Maybe they’ll prioritise the scary gribbly Kharybdis you threw into this train wreck.
I am not speaking metaphorically with that last idiom.
The four Rhinos arrange themselves into two columns. Precision doesn’t matter too much. The important thing is that they are all touched by some prepared circular templates that will bewilder your opponent at first. The dimensions of these templates will become clear very shortly.
I should stop here. I won’t.
You know in the Two Towers, when the Uruk-Hai Berzerker does his death run with the torch? The Plasma Rhino does this, with a cheeky Warptime to nudge it as far forwards as possible with the other Rhinos all within 6” and a valid target within 12”.
If you didn’t lose first turn and a Vindicator, your opponent will probably suss what’s going on when you move the three of them and check they’re all within 24” of a point that is 3” away from the four Rhinos. (If there’s an enemy Spore Mine or Nurgling in there, more power to you.) They can Advance for this - though if you roll enough 6’s, you might want to have them able to shoot. The Daemon Prince flies up. He’s at least 6” away from the lead Rhino’s final position, and within 7” of the other Rhinos.
SHUT DOWN MY WARPTIME TERMINATORS, WILL YOU? *shakes fist in general direction of Nottingham*
With the pieces in play, you rapid fire your gambit from the Psychic phase after anything else you’re doing. If you’ve got a Daemons Detachment, re-rolls on casting is a good call.
This has so many moving parts, it will never work. Will it?
Start with Gaze. You want a spare reroll to hand. Then Warptime the Rhino. You’re not moving a unit, here. You’re chambering a shell. If you’ve got the opportunity, hit something with Gateway, so as to inflict as much splash damage on your Rhinos as possible. It does not matter if the enemy is a worthwhile target. You weren’t aiming at them.
At this point, you must maintain clarity in your composure, so that your opponent is absolutely clear that you are following the letter of the rules to the letter. But you must also execute a rapid flow of actions, so as to shock and awe them with your Kamikaze bravado.
As the Shooting Phase commences, any Kharybdis that are able to legally hit a Rhino do so. Again, it does not matter what enemy units they target to make this technically legal. Then, the Plasma Rhino overcharges and gives something both barrels. If you’ve got a target with a -1 to be hit ability, you are laughing. Ghostkeel battlesuit? Perfect. Throw the requisite rerolls needed to make it pop.
I play Putrid Detonation. My destroyed Nurgle Vehicle automatically explodes.
Each Rhino takes D6 Mortal Wounds. The inhabitants of the Rhino jump out, at within spitting distance of the enemy.
I play Linebreaker Bombardment. Every unit within 3” of this point in the middle of my cluster of Rhinos takes 3D3W on the roll of a 4+.
Start making your checks starting with the most heavily damaged Rhino. If you miss, use a re-roll. If you roll low damage and leave it with 1W, consider a re-reroll. Repeat for each one in turn.
Execute these actions clearly but quickly. Your opponent doesn’t think a squad of Berzerkers can reach their lines on the first turn. You want the horror of their situation to hit them like a train.
When the smoke clears, if there’s a Rhino or two with low Wounds, you can try to pop them by the Daemon Prince using Nurgle’s Rot. YES, I WENT THERE. 6CP TO KILL MY OWN UNITS. SAY SOMETHING. You’ve got an alright chance of one of the Rhinos exploding on its own volition, adding to the fun.
Best case scenario, you’ve got forty Possessed and Berzerkers within easy charge distances, and an opponent looking back at deepstriking Kraken Swarmlord & Genestealers like Batman remembering Joker’s innocuous first prank.
I’m sorry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: if the enemy army moved forwards with some short to medium ranged gunline, you might be able to drop the advancing on the Rhinos. That way, you can declare charges on loads of enemy units with your 1W surviving Rhinos. Dare them to shoot you. This has the effect of continuing the confusion and shock and awe. Ten minutes ago, they laughed at you as you forfeit First Blood with that self-terminating Rhino. Bwahaha, the fools, etc
General bonus: these are all pretty good units, and if the whole plan goes south, you can always just blast away with Vindicators as your Rhinos full of madmen reach the enemy the only fashioned way
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also! Don’t forget to fire the Combi-Bolter the first Rhino comes with, and the Combi-Bolters of any Rhinos that didn’t Advance. It’d be a shame to waste them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, this ludicrous proposal aside, I think I am going to pack Plasma on my shock Troops’ rhinos and take opportunity shots to try to execute a disembarkation where it would be of benefit.
Also, to really conceal your intentions, maybe conspicuously put a Warptimer on the other side of the board - perhaps looking like they’re going to boost that Kharybdis (actually, this is a pretty good thing to do anyway) and use a Familiar to replace an innocuous Warptime where you need it to be.
I was just thinking combi bolters are pretty cheap and efficient for just 2 points, and every champion can take them. A chosen unit can take a lot of those too. And brigade now gives 12 CP which is a lot! One brigade can give you 15 CP to play with in total, which is usually more than enough for most purposes.
I was thinking of how viable a world eaters army with a brigade of lots of MSU berserker units would be? Each core troop berserker unit would be the minimum 5 man so that I don’t need to worry about morale. This also allows me to equip as many as 6 squads. Each squad has a Champion with a power maul so that I can handle light vehicles with 8 str 7 attacks and benefit from the death to the false emperor. The same champion will also have a combi bolter so can pump out 4 shots at double tap range. Combined with a grenade and pistol shots, that a decent amount of dakka from one MSU berserker squad. And 3 Rhinos would be able to take in these 6 squads of berserkers.
Fast and heavy choices for the brigade can be cheap or simple. (Havocs and spawn, or havocs and bikes even if so inclined). The elite choice I was thinking can be more MSU chosen with combi bolters. So 3 elite choices of 5 chosen with combi bolters means another 15 of these combi bolters. So, the short range dakka coming out of all the MSU squads when they erupt from their Rhinos is actually going to be pretty decent. If we are talking about 5 Rhinos with double combi bolters, 3 chosen squads and 6 berserker squads, that’s 31 combi bolters in total. So, in the turn I unload everything, I can also shoot up to 124 combi bolter shots at double tap range. Doesn’t even count the 9 potential grenades I can chuck from 9 squads of men.
I calculated. 6 squads of zerkers with the setup I described above, and 3 squads of chosen and 5 rhinos would add up to 1150 points. And so we will have 850 point for 3 characters, 3 fast attack and 3 heavy support. Sounds reasonable, right? What do you think?
(If we want to use tide of traitors. We can have 5 squads of zerkers, 3 squads of chosen squeezed into 4 rhinos, and then one big squad of 40 cultists. So, the point cost also works out to about 1150. )
Right. Here’s the best iteration I’ve been able to come up with:
- Death Guard units: flying Daemon Prince (or Mort), Squad in Rhino with Combi-Plasma (Possessed are good for Epidemius larks, Spewer/Belcher squad is also good, Poxwalkers could have had absolutely hilarious potential prior to their nerf)
- CSM units: at least two Rhinos containing units with Icons of Wrath; four seem feasible and ideal. Warpflamer Rubrics and certain Chosen builds are good as well
- Any Legion units: three Vindicators (can you see where this is leading?); a Warptimer (Daemon keyword is handy, for access to the CD rerolls Stratagem)
- Whatever we’re meant to call a Herald of Tzeentch these days, with Gaze of Fate (this can be summoned, but if you’re getting clever with Stratagems then a Daemon Detachment is an asset)
- Buckets of CP
If the stars align, and enemy units deploy in your face, the following can contribute:
- deployed Kharybdis (now, hear me out)
- Lord of Change/Ahriman/Magnus getting closer with Infernal Gateway (can double up as your Warptimer, but ideally that model is keeping away from DTW coverage; likewise, Gazer of Fate wants to be bunkering)
Right. You deploy with the four Rhinos up tight. Right behind them, there’s the plasma rhino and Daemon Prince. The Vindicators deploy in a fairly dispersed fashion, hogging cover is possible. They don’t need to be in range of the enemy turn one. They just need need to rendezvous.
I can’t believe I’m typing this.
If you’re going ahead with Kharybdises and Infernal Gateway, they should be flanking this formation.
Warp help me, this is terrible. If it’s any consolation, these are mostly decent enough units that it won’t be terrible when this gets shut down.
You Advance with each of the front Rhinos. If you didn’t get first turn, don’t worry. There should be enough left to make this work. Maybe they’ll prioritise the scary gribbly Kharybdis you threw into this train wreck.
I am not speaking metaphorically with that last idiom.
The four Rhinos arrange themselves into two columns. Precision doesn’t matter too much. The important thing is that they are all touched by some prepared circular templates that will bewilder your opponent at first. The dimensions of these templates will become clear very shortly.
I should stop here. I won’t.
You know in the Two Towers, when the Uruk-Hai Berzerker does his death run with the torch? The Plasma Rhino does this, with a cheeky Warptime to nudge it as far forwards as possible with the other Rhinos all within 6” and a valid target within 12”.
If you didn’t lose first turn and a Vindicator, your opponent will probably suss what’s going on when you move the three of them and check they’re all within 24” of a point that is 3” away from the four Rhinos. (If there’s an enemy Spore Mine or Nurgling in there, more power to you.) They can Advance for this - though if you roll enough 6’s, you might want to have them able to shoot. The Daemon Prince flies up. He’s at least 6” away from the lead Rhino’s final position, and within 7” of the other Rhinos.
SHUT DOWN MY WARPTIME TERMINATORS, WILL YOU? *shakes fist in general direction of Nottingham*
With the pieces in play, you rapid fire your gambit from the Psychic phase after anything else you’re doing. If you’ve got a Daemons Detachment, re-rolls on casting is a good call.
This has so many moving parts, it will never work. Will it?
Start with Gaze. You want a spare reroll to hand. Then Warptime the Rhino. You’re not moving a unit, here. You’re chambering a shell. If you’ve got the opportunity, hit something with Gateway, so as to inflict as much splash damage on your Rhinos as possible. It does not matter if the enemy is a worthwhile target. You weren’t aiming at them.
At this point, you must maintain clarity in your composure, so that your opponent is absolutely clear that you are following the letter of the rules to the letter. But you must also execute a rapid flow of actions, so as to shock and awe them with your Kamikaze bravado.
As the Shooting Phase commences, any Kharybdis that are able to legally hit a Rhino do so. Again, it does not matter what enemy units they target to make this technically legal. Then, the Plasma Rhino overcharges and gives something both barrels. If you’ve got a target with a -1 to be hit ability, you are laughing. Ghostkeel battlesuit? Perfect. Throw the requisite rerolls needed to make it pop.
I play Putrid Detonation. My destroyed Nurgle Vehicle automatically explodes.
Each Rhino takes D6 Mortal Wounds. The inhabitants of the Rhino jump out, at within spitting distance of the enemy.
I play Linebreaker Bombardment. Every unit within 3” of this point in the middle of my cluster of Rhinos takes 3D3W on the roll of a 4+.
Start making your checks starting with the most heavily damaged Rhino. If you miss, use a re-roll. If you roll low damage and leave it with 1W, consider a re-reroll. Repeat for each one in turn.
Execute these actions clearly but quickly. Your opponent doesn’t think a squad of Berzerkers can reach their lines on the first turn. You want the horror of their situation to hit them like a train.
When the smoke clears, if there’s a Rhino or two with low Wounds, you can try to pop them by the Daemon Prince using Nurgle’s Rot. YES, I WENT THERE. 6CP TO KILL MY OWN UNITS. SAY SOMETHING. You’ve got an alright chance of one of the Rhinos exploding on its own volition, adding to the fun.
Best case scenario, you’ve got forty Possessed and Berzerkers within easy charge distances, and an opponent looking back at deepstriking Kraken Swarmlord & Genestealers like Batman remembering Joker’s innocuous first prank.
I’m sorry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: if the enemy army moved forwards with some short to medium ranged gunline, you might be able to drop the advancing on the Rhinos. That way, you can declare charges on loads of enemy units with your 1W surviving Rhinos. Dare them to shoot you. This has the effect of continuing the confusion and shock and awe. Ten minutes ago, they laughed at you as you forfeit First Blood with that self-terminating Rhino. Bwahaha, the fools, etc
General bonus: these are all pretty good units, and if the whole plan goes south, you can always just blast away with Vindicators as your Rhinos full of madmen reach the enemy the only fashioned way
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also! Don’t forget to fire the Combi-Bolter the first Rhino comes with, and the Combi-Bolters of any Rhinos that didn’t Advance. It’d be a shame to waste them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, this ludicrous proposal aside, I think I am going to pack Plasma on my shock Troops’ rhinos and take opportunity shots to try to execute a disembarkation where it would be of benefit.
Also, to really conceal your intentions, maybe conspicuously put a Warptimer on the other side of the board - perhaps looking like they’re going to boost that Kharybdis (actually, this is a pretty good thing to do anyway) and use a Familiar to replace an innocuous Warptime where you need it to be.
Right. Here’s the best iteration I’ve been able to come up with:
- Death Guard units: flying Daemon Prince (or Mort), Squad in Rhino with Combi-Plasma (Possessed are good for Epidemius larks, Spewer/Belcher squad is also good, Poxwalkers could have had absolutely hilarious potential prior to their nerf)
- CSM units: at least two Rhinos containing units with Icons of Wrath; four seem feasible and ideal. Warpflamer Rubrics and certain Chosen builds are good as well
- Any Legion units: three Vindicators (can you see where this is leading?); a Warptimer (Daemon keyword is handy, for access to the CD rerolls Stratagem)
- Whatever we’re meant to call a Herald of Tzeentch these days, with Gaze of Fate (this can be summoned, but if you’re getting clever with Stratagems then a Daemon Detachment is an asset)
- Buckets of CP
If the stars align, and enemy units deploy in your face, the following can contribute:
- deployed Kharybdis (now, hear me out)
- Lord of Change/Ahriman/Magnus getting closer with Infernal Gateway (can double up as your Warptimer, but ideally that model is keeping away from DTW coverage; likewise, Gazer of Fate wants to be bunkering)
Right. You deploy with the four Rhinos up tight. Right behind them, there’s the plasma rhino and Daemon Prince. The Vindicators deploy in a fairly dispersed fashion, hogging cover is possible. They don’t need to be in range of the enemy turn one. They just need need to rendezvous.
I can’t believe I’m typing this.
If you’re going ahead with Kharybdises and Infernal Gateway, they should be flanking this formation.
Warp help me, this is terrible. If it’s any consolation, these are mostly decent enough units that it won’t be terrible when this gets shut down.
You Advance with each of the front Rhinos. If you didn’t get first turn, don’t worry. There should be enough left to make this work. Maybe they’ll prioritise the scary gribbly Kharybdis you threw into this train wreck.
I am not speaking metaphorically with that last idiom.
The four Rhinos arrange themselves into two columns. Precision doesn’t matter too much. The important thing is that they are all touched by some prepared circular templates that will bewilder your opponent at first. The dimensions of these templates will become clear very shortly.
I should stop here. I won’t.
You know in the Two Towers, when the Uruk-Hai Berzerker does his death run with the torch? The Plasma Rhino does this, with a cheeky Warptime to nudge it as far forwards as possible with the other Rhinos all within 6” and a valid target within 12”.
If you didn’t lose first turn and a Vindicator, your opponent will probably suss what’s going on when you move the three of them and check they’re all within 24” of a point that is 3” away from the four Rhinos. (If there’s an enemy Spore Mine or Nurgling in there, more power to you.) They can Advance for this - though if you roll enough 6’s, you might want to have them able to shoot. The Daemon Prince flies up. He’s at least 6” away from the lead Rhino’s final position, and within 7” of the other Rhinos.
SHUT DOWN MY WARPTIME TERMINATORS, WILL YOU? *shakes fist in general direction of Nottingham*
With the pieces in play, you rapid fire your gambit from the Psychic phase after anything else you’re doing. If you’ve got a Daemons Detachment, re-rolls on casting is a good call.
This has so many moving parts, it will never work. Will it?
Start with Gaze. You want a spare reroll to hand. Then Warptime the Rhino. You’re not moving a unit, here. You’re chambering a shell. If you’ve got the opportunity, hit something with Gateway, so as to inflict as much splash damage on your Rhinos as possible. It does not matter if the enemy is a worthwhile target. You weren’t aiming at them.
At this point, you must maintain clarity in your composure, so that your opponent is absolutely clear that you are following the letter of the rules to the letter. But you must also execute a rapid flow of actions, so as to shock and awe them with your Kamikaze bravado.
As the Shooting Phase commences, any Kharybdis that are able to legally hit a Rhino do so. Again, it does not matter what enemy units they target to make this technically legal. Then, the Plasma Rhino overcharges and gives something both barrels. If you’ve got a target with a -1 to be hit ability, you are laughing. Ghostkeel battlesuit? Perfect. Throw the requisite rerolls needed to make it pop.
I play Putrid Detonation. My destroyed Nurgle Vehicle automatically explodes.
Each Rhino takes D6 Mortal Wounds. The inhabitants of the Rhino jump out, at within spitting distance of the enemy.
I play Linebreaker Bombardment. Every unit within 3” of this point in the middle of my cluster of Rhinos takes 3D3W on the roll of a 4+.
Start making your checks starting with the most heavily damaged Rhino. If you miss, use a re-roll. If you roll low damage and leave it with 1W, consider a re-reroll. Repeat for each one in turn.
Execute these actions clearly but quickly. Your opponent doesn’t think a squad of Berzerkers can reach their lines on the first turn. You want the horror of their situation to hit them like a train.
When the smoke clears, if there’s a Rhino or two with low Wounds, you can try to pop them by the Daemon Prince using Nurgle’s Rot. YES, I WENT THERE. 6CP TO KILL MY OWN UNITS. SAY SOMETHING. You’ve got an alright chance of one of the Rhinos exploding on its own volition, adding to the fun.
Best case scenario, you’ve got forty Possessed and Berzerkers within easy charge distances, and an opponent looking back at deepstriking Kraken Swarmlord & Genestealers like Batman remembering Joker’s innocuous first prank.
I’m sorry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: if the enemy army moved forwards with some short to medium ranged gunline, you might be able to drop the advancing on the Rhinos. That way, you can declare charges on loads of enemy units with your 1W surviving Rhinos. Dare them to shoot you. This has the effect of continuing the confusion and shock and awe. Ten minutes ago, they laughed at you as you forfeit First Blood with that self-terminating Rhino. Bwahaha, the fools, etc
General bonus: these are all pretty good units, and if the whole plan goes south, you can always just blast away with Vindicators as your Rhinos full of madmen reach the enemy the only fashioned way
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also! Don’t forget to fire the Combi-Bolter the first Rhino comes with, and the Combi-Bolters of any Rhinos that didn’t Advance. It’d be a shame to waste them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, this ludicrous proposal aside, I think I am going to pack Plasma on my shock Troops’ rhinos and take opportunity shots to try to execute a disembarkation where it would be of benefit.
Also, to really conceal your intentions, maybe conspicuously put a Warptimer on the other side of the board - perhaps looking like they’re going to boost that Kharybdis (actually, this is a pretty good thing to do anyway) and use a Familiar to replace an innocuous Warptime where you need it to be.
lindsay40k wrote: Right. Here’s the best iteration I’ve been able to come up with:
- Death Guard units: flying Daemon Prince (or Mort), Squad in Rhino with Combi-Plasma (Possessed are good for Epidemius larks, Spewer/Belcher squad is also good, Poxwalkers could have had absolutely hilarious potential prior to their nerf)
- CSM units: at least two Rhinos containing units with Icons of Wrath; four seem feasible and ideal. Warpflamer Rubrics and certain Chosen builds are good as well
- Any Legion units: three Vindicators (can you see where this is leading?); a Warptimer (Daemon keyword is handy, for access to the CD rerolls Stratagem)
- Whatever we’re meant to call a Herald of Tzeentch these days, with Gaze of Fate (this can be summoned, but if you’re getting clever with Stratagems then a Daemon Detachment is an asset)
- Buckets of CP
If the stars align, and enemy units deploy in your face, the following can contribute:
- deployed Kharybdis (now, hear me out)
- Lord of Change/Ahriman/Magnus getting closer with Infernal Gateway (can double up as your Warptimer, but ideally that model is keeping away from DTW coverage; likewise, Gazer of Fate wants to be bunkering)
Right. You deploy with the four Rhinos up tight. Right behind them, there’s the plasma rhino and Daemon Prince. The Vindicators deploy in a fairly dispersed fashion, hogging cover is possible. They don’t need to be in range of the enemy turn one. They just need need to rendezvous.
I can’t believe I’m typing this.
If you’re going ahead with Kharybdises and Infernal Gateway, they should be flanking this formation.
Warp help me, this is terrible. If it’s any consolation, these are mostly decent enough units that it won’t be terrible when this gets shut down.
You Advance with each of the front Rhinos. If you didn’t get first turn, don’t worry. There should be enough left to make this work. Maybe they’ll prioritise the scary gribbly Kharybdis you threw into this train wreck.
I am not speaking metaphorically with that last idiom.
The four Rhinos arrange themselves into two columns. Precision doesn’t matter too much. The important thing is that they are all touched by some prepared circular templates that will bewilder your opponent at first. The dimensions of these templates will become clear very shortly.
I should stop here. I won’t.
You know in the Two Towers, when the Uruk-Hai Berzerker does his death run with the torch? The Plasma Rhino does this, with a cheeky Warptime to nudge it as far forwards as possible with the other Rhinos all within 6” and a valid target within 12”.
If you didn’t lose first turn and a Vindicator, your opponent will probably suss what’s going on when you move the three of them and check they’re all within 24” of a point that is 3” away from the four Rhinos. (If there’s an enemy Spore Mine or Nurgling in there, more power to you.) They can Advance for this - though if you roll enough 6’s, you might want to have them able to shoot. The Daemon Prince flies up. He’s at least 6” away from the lead Rhino’s final position, and within 7” of the other Rhinos.
SHUT DOWN MY WARPTIME TERMINATORS, WILL YOU? *shakes fist in general direction of Nottingham*
With the pieces in play, you rapid fire your gambit from the Psychic phase after anything else you’re doing. If you’ve got a Daemons Detachment, re-rolls on casting is a good call.
This has so many moving parts, it will never work. Will it?
Start with Gaze. You want a spare reroll to hand. Then Warptime the Rhino. You’re not moving a unit, here. You’re chambering a shell. If you’ve got the opportunity, hit something with Gateway, so as to inflict as much splash damage on your Rhinos as possible. It does not matter if the enemy is a worthwhile target. You weren’t aiming at them.
At this point, you must maintain clarity in your composure, so that your opponent is absolutely clear that you are following the letter of the rules to the letter. But you must also execute a rapid flow of actions, so as to shock and awe them with your Kamikaze bravado.
As the Shooting Phase commences, any Kharybdis that are able to legally hit a Rhino do so. Again, it does not matter what enemy units they target to make this technically legal. Then, the Plasma Rhino overcharges and gives something both barrels. If you’ve got a target with a -1 to be hit ability, you are laughing. Ghostkeel battlesuit? Perfect. Throw the requisite rerolls needed to make it pop.
I play Putrid Detonation. My destroyed Nurgle Vehicle automatically explodes.
Each Rhino takes D6 Mortal Wounds. The inhabitants of the Rhino jump out, at within spitting distance of the enemy.
I play Linebreaker Bombardment. Every unit within 3” of this point in the middle of my cluster of Rhinos takes 3D3W on the roll of a 4+.
Start making your checks starting with the most heavily damaged Rhino. If you miss, use a re-roll. If you roll low damage and leave it with 1W, consider a re-reroll. Repeat for each one in turn.
Execute these actions clearly but quickly. Your opponent doesn’t think a squad of Berzerkers can reach their lines on the first turn. You want the horror of their situation to hit them like a train.
When the smoke clears, if there’s a Rhino or two with low Wounds, you can try to pop them by the Daemon Prince using Nurgle’s Rot. YES, I WENT THERE. 6CP TO KILL MY OWN UNITS. SAY SOMETHING. You’ve got an alright chance of one of the Rhinos exploding on its own volition, adding to the fun.
Best case scenario, you’ve got forty Possessed and Berzerkers within easy charge distances, and an opponent looking back at deepstriking Kraken Swarmlord & Genestealers like Batman remembering Joker’s innocuous first prank.
I’m sorry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: if the enemy army moved forwards with some short to medium ranged gunline, you might be able to drop the advancing on the Rhinos. That way, you can declare charges on loads of enemy units with your 1W surviving Rhinos. Dare them to shoot you. This has the effect of continuing the confusion and shock and awe. Ten minutes ago, they laughed at you as you forfeit First Blood with that self-terminating Rhino. Bwahaha, the fools, etc
General bonus: these are all pretty good units, and if the whole plan goes south, you can always just blast away with Vindicators as your Rhinos full of madmen reach the enemy the only fashioned way
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also! Don’t forget to fire the Combi-Bolter the first Rhino comes with, and the Combi-Bolters of any Rhinos that didn’t Advance. It’d be a shame to waste them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, this ludicrous proposal aside, I think I am going to pack Plasma on my shock Troops’ rhinos and take opportunity shots to try to execute a disembarkation where it would be of benefit.
Also, to really conceal your intentions, maybe conspicuously put a Warptimer on the other side of the board - perhaps looking like they’re going to boost that Kharybdis (actually, this is a pretty good thing to do anyway) and use a Familiar to replace an innocuous Warptime where you need it to be.
Thanks for the other ideas I just wanted to play WE pure, but i will try a list with warptime to.
Next Saturday i will give it a try.
So recently a friend of mine brought up the subject of the Hellforged Predator with all flamer weapons. I'm debating adding one to my collection using a Baal Predator kit to make the model. Are these things really any good for their points? 4d6 auto-hitting weapons seems good, but you do have to get pretty close to make use of them...
ZergSmasher wrote: So recently a friend of mine brought up the subject of the Hellforged Predator with all flamer weapons. I'm debating adding one to my collection using a Baal Predator kit to make the model. Are these things really any good for their points? 4d6 auto-hitting weapons seems good, but you do have to get pretty close to make use of them...
I built one a while ago. They’re a fun niche unit. If your opponent’s got anti-tank firepower, hordes that want to banzai charge, and the battlefield affords line of sight, it’s dead. This kind of unit really wants to be a mobile flying platform rather than a Rhino with +1W & a melee gimmick. Bikers do a similar thing for less, with the mobility to pull it off. I use it in Cityfight games and Narrative fort defence games where it can be pretty sure of having a suitable target come to meet it in a place where it’s not going to get sniped. Don’t forget you can add a Combi-Flamer for 5D6 auto hits.
Hi all!
I have been thinking about adding a Fire Raptor Gunship from FW.
It line up good for my csm/daemon army list AND for my newer army of sisters.
At first I was thinking of using a Knight but did check the points and weapons on both the Knight and the Fire raptor and
The fire raptor seems like a win... by a lot..
For a comp/ semi-comp perspectives, are the Fire raptor worth it? And/or is a Knight a good choice?
I need something bigger and badder that’s draws attention of fire.
And just for saying I’m kinda new to the game. (Late, late 7th)
Fire raptor was good before the faq, but not after the 90pt increase. What you choose to add would depend on what hole in your list you're trying to fill
There is mathhammer someone buried in here that concluded the Fire Raptor was slightly worse than a shooty Leviathan both offensively and defensively and that was done before Chapter Approved. Now that it's slightly more expensive than back then it will still be good.
It was ridiculously broken before so being nerfed doesn't make it unusable.
I've got a lot of models primed leadbelcher for Iron Warriors and I was thinking of making a Vanguard of Alpha Legion to run with them for "Forward Operatives" purposes.
I'm leaning heavily towards 10 chosen, 5 termies, 1 helbrute, and 1 sorcerer hq of some persuasion for warptime/prescience etc.
1.) Are there ANY drawbacks to mixing legions at all?
2.) What are some tactical benefits and/or fluffy reasons for the two legions to work together?
3.) If there is no drawback to mixing legions and I DO get to use the benefits of both legions without consequences, then is there anything stopping me from running 3 detachments that are all different legions? (Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Alpha Legion)
4.) Suggests for how to kit these out are welcome. I'm thinking combi-bolter/chainsword Chosen, combi-plasma Termicide, but not sure about the brute or the HQ.
CountEjacula138 wrote: I've got a lot of models primed leadbelcher for Iron Warriors and I was thinking of making a Vanguard of Alpha Legion to run with them for "Forward Operatives" purposes.
I'm leaning heavily towards 10 chosen, 5 termies, 1 helbrute, and 1 sorcerer hq of some persuasion for warptime/prescience etc.
1.) Are there ANY drawbacks to mixing legions at all?
2.) What are some tactical benefits and/or fluffy reasons for the two legions to work together?
3.) If there is no drawback to mixing legions and I DO get to use the benefits of both legions without consequences, then is there anything stopping me from running 3 detachments that are all different legions? (Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Alpha Legion)
4.) Suggests for how to kit these out are welcome. I'm thinking combi-bolter/chainsword Chosen, combi-plasma Termicide, but not sure about the brute or the HQ.
Cheers and thanks!
As far as I understand it you can mix legions as long as each detachment is its own legion. The only draw backs I can think of would be that certain abilities wouldn't benefit units from other legions. For example, your HQ units would have auras that would only affect models from their own legion.
There is a cool book that includes some Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors siege. You could take Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors Legion, but I their legion benefits wouldn't be useful. Instead, you could take renegade or World Eaters berserkers as a detachment to battle alongside your Iron Warriors legion. My friend plays Death Guard and Iron Warriors whereas I play World Eaters, so we like to do this sometimes.
As far as I understand it you can mix legions as long as each detachment is its own legion. The only draw backs I can think of would be that certain abilities wouldn't benefit units from other legions. For example, your HQ units would have auras that would only affect models from their own legion.
There is a cool book that includes some Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors siege. You could take Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors Legion, but I their legion benefits wouldn't be useful. Instead, you could take renegade or World Eaters berserkers as a detachment to battle alongside your Iron Warriors legion. My friend plays Death Guard and Iron Warriors whereas I play World Eaters, so we like to do this sometimes.
Ah yes. Storm of Iron. That's why I ran the two together in the first place. Love that book! I'm just trying to squeeze as much out of all my units as possible. It is becoming more and more feasible to me to run 3 detachments of 3 legions with their own specialty. Swim in command points. IW for long range gun line and turn 1 shooting, AL for -1 to hit cultists and forward opps, WE for extra helpings of zerker meat on this fluff sandwich.
As far as I understand it you can mix legions as long as each detachment is its own legion. The only draw backs I can think of would be that certain abilities wouldn't benefit units from other legions. For example, your HQ units would have auras that would only affect models from their own legion.
There is a cool book that includes some Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors siege. You could take Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors Legion, but I their legion benefits wouldn't be useful. Instead, you could take renegade or World Eaters berserkers as a detachment to battle alongside your Iron Warriors legion. My friend plays Death Guard and Iron Warriors whereas I play World Eaters, so we like to do this sometimes.
Ah yes. Storm of Iron. That's why I ran the two together in the first place. Love that book! I'm just trying to squeeze as much out of all my units as possible. It is becoming more and more feasible to me to run 3 detachments of 3 legions with their own specialty. Swim in command points. IW for long range gun line and turn 1 shooting, AL for -1 to hit cultists and forward opps, WE for extra helpings of zerker meat on this fluff sandwich.
Thanks
I guess the only downside would be the overwhelming number of troops you'd need to take for 3 detachments. 6 HQ and 9 Troops, assuming they are battalions. Alpha Legion cultists could be very cheap. Iron Warrior cultists backed up with some heavy support and a World Eaters force with Khorne Berserkers might work and fit. Berserkers are elites that count as troops, so then you're only looking at 6 "actual" troop units. I'd love to see what you come up with.
Fan67 wrote: Guys, but is there any other internal ways to lower the BS of your rhino, except shooting combi-weapon?
I think investing too much into this idea is pretty glorious, but not efficient way to spend points.
But one rhino can indeed surprise.
I’ve been scouring our books and the only other thing I’ve found that can contribute to this gambit is a Poxbringer casting Nurgle’s Rot. Could drop some more Mortal Wounds on the ‘carriages’ in the train wreck ploy.
As far as I understand it you can mix legions as long as each detachment is its own legion. The only draw backs I can think of would be that certain abilities wouldn't benefit units from other legions. For example, your HQ units would have auras that would only affect models from their own legion.
There is a cool book that includes some Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors siege. You could take Khorne Berserkers in an Iron Warriors Legion, but I their legion benefits wouldn't be useful. Instead, you could take renegade or World Eaters berserkers as a detachment to battle alongside your Iron Warriors legion. My friend plays Death Guard and Iron Warriors whereas I play World Eaters, so we like to do this sometimes.
Ah yes. Storm of Iron. That's why I ran the two together in the first place. Love that book! I'm just trying to squeeze as much out of all my units as possible. It is becoming more and more feasible to me to run 3 detachments of 3 legions with their own specialty. Swim in command points. IW for long range gun line and turn 1 shooting, AL for -1 to hit cultists and forward opps, WE for extra helpings of zerker meat on this fluff sandwich.
Thanks
I guess the only downside would be the overwhelming number of troops you'd need to take for 3 detachments. 6 HQ and 9 Troops, assuming they are battalions. Alpha Legion cultists could be very cheap. Iron Warrior cultists backed up with some heavy support and a World Eaters force with Khorne Berserkers might work and fit. Berserkers are elites that count as troops, so then you're only looking at 6 "actual" troop units. I'd love to see what you come up with.
You read my mind exactly. I'll let you know what becomes of my experiments.
Just to check, Forward Operatives deploys the dudes you set up in concealment after the roll to seize the first turn has happened but before the first turn actually begins? I'm planing on ye olde Alpha Legion Berzerker Bomb, powered by the new Battalions. If the deployment is after seize, this will let me change my plan on the fly.
BaconCatBug wrote: Just to check, Forward Operatives deploys the dudes you set up in concealment after the roll to seize the first turn has happened but before the first turn actually begins? I'm planing on ye olde Alpha Legion Berzerker Bomb, powered by the new Battalions. If the deployment is after seize, this will let me change my plan on the fly.
So with the FAQ changes, is there still a need for screening cultists? Thinking about my World Eaters, and tbh it’s hard to fit cultists in. I will be running an outrider with flesh hounds and a bloodletter bomb, so there is some screening potential from the hounds.
BaconCatBug wrote: Just to check, Forward Operatives deploys the dudes you set up in concealment after the roll to seize the first turn has happened but before the first turn actually begins? I'm planing on ye olde Alpha Legion Berzerker Bomb, powered by the new Battalions. If the deployment is after seize, this will let me change my plan on the fly.
Yea alpha legion really likes the FAQ extra CP and our alpha strike is just as effective. The only thing that has changed in my list is less termy armour and jump packs and that my oblits will now come in with forward ops rather than DS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vomikron Noxis wrote: So with the FAQ changes, is there still a need for screening cultists? Thinking about my World Eaters, and tbh it’s hard to fit cultists in. I will be running an outrider with flesh hounds and a bloodletter bomb, so there is some screening potential from the hounds.
3 x 10 man cultist squads to fill a battalion is super cheap for 5 CPs. They can still block turn 2 DS and can hold backline objectives.
Im running a battalion with cultists and one with horrors to give me 10 CPs which is more than enough for my list.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: So with the FAQ changes, is there still a need for screening cultists? Thinking about my World Eaters, and tbh it’s hard to fit cultists in. I will be running an outrider with flesh hounds and a bloodletter bomb, so there is some screening potential from the hounds.
I was pondering this same question this morning. I like having the pocket tide of traitors stratagem available to me as well as the screen they provide but the last 2 or 3 games I've played I've either not used the strat or had it penalized / mitigated by the new beta DS rules (specifically when used on first turn). In my play group not a lot people setup screens. I'm guessing this is because they'd rather bring their big tanks than scatter a bunch of gak kickers across the board to prevent a backfield strike that may or may not happen. It's hard to say if this is the popular opinion though in the community as a whole. I, for one, plan to continue at least some sort of screening even if it's toned down. I do have genestealer cult and IG / Tallarn (is that the one that lets you outflank from board edges?) players in my group though so blocking off board edges with my cultists would hamper their efforts.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I can't remember if I asked this before, but what are people's opinions on a Dark Mechanicus style Daemon Engine army?
IMO it'd work best as mono-god Daemonkin, with a CD Supreme Command of mounted Heralds and/or flying DPs giving buffs, or an Epidemius Battalion.
Lack of a cheap & fast HQ for Nurgle Daemons presents limitations, but Fleshy Abundance & Loci of Virulence & Fecundity are all good. Last one is quite DG-specific in its synergy, though.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I can't remember if I asked this before, but what are people's opinions on a Dark Mechanicus style Daemon Engine army?
I think potentially quite strong.
There are some solid daemon engines in the game..
Plagueburst crawler, soul grinders, bloat drones..
Personally I think they would need screening and beta striking support, but maybe not.
I was hoping to stick on a Slaanesh theme, but are Soul Grinders really much better than delfilers? It's kinda sucky, and I may abandon it - Slaanesh has exactly 0 Daemon Engines unique to her.
lindsay40k wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote: I can't remember if I asked this before, but what are people's opinions on a Dark Mechanicus style Daemon Engine army?
IMO it'd work best as mono-god Daemonkin, with a CD Supreme Command of mounted Heralds and/or flying DPs giving buffs, or an Epidemius Battalion.
Lack of a cheap & fast HQ for Nurgle Daemons presents limitations, but Fleshy Abundance & Loci of Virulence & Fecundity are all good. Last one is quite DG-specific in its synergy, though.
My main HQ was going to be the Chaos Hellwright, as I have a dark mechanicus Horus Heresy cybernetica army. Sadly, Thanatars, Castellax, etc. have no real 40k counterparts, so I can't just bring over my 30k army with added corruption, lol.
Soul grinders are not better than defilers or are better depending on a LOT of outside variables. Thousand Son defilers will wreck whatever they look at typically without an issue due to their boosts to their abilities through stratagems and spells. Soul Grinders are typically not better, but the mark you give them can make them better. Mark of Tzeentch gives it a default 4++ save, Mark of Nurgle gives it a 5+++ fnp. I think I need to relook at soul grinders mixed in with my rubric army, they may have untapped potential there.
But mark of slaanesh or khorne soul grinders are typically just like a mark of slaanesh or khorne defilers, they are ment to be used as cc and the ranged abilities are more of a "oh yeah it can do this too I guess". Like ork shooting..... Lol
Azuza001 wrote: Soul grinders are not better than defilers or are better depending on a LOT of outside variables. Thousand Son defilers will wreck whatever they look at typically without an issue due to their boosts to their abilities through stratagems and spells. Soul Grinders are typically not better, but the mark you give them can make them better. Mark of Tzeentch gives it a default 4++ save, Mark of Nurgle gives it a 5+++ fnp. I think I need to relook at soul grinders mixed in with my rubric army, they may have untapped potential there.
But mark of slaanesh or khorne soul grinders are typically just like a mark of slaanesh or khorne defilers, they are ment to be used as cc and the ranged abilities are more of a "oh yeah it can do this too I guess". Like ork shooting..... Lol
Lol! It's worth noting that having the Daemon keyword means that Slaaneshi defilers can advance and charge if they're within 6" of a Daemon Character from a slaanesh daemons detachment.
I really prefer the look of Defilers to Soul Grinders. What I am considering is my Chaos Hellwright as HQ, possibly another hellwright or warpsmith as other HQ, then 2 Defilers as 2 Heavy Support, and some kind of "land raider command tank" type thing, possibly one of the FW land raiders, and then cultists or something as the troops.
I hate the look of the dinobots. I'd be willing to consider Decimators with Soulburner cannons too.
Played my Alpha Legion last night in first battle since the FAQ.
Increase in command points for battalion is great as it allows more Forward Operatives - i picked four units rather than the usual two.
Raptors (with two melta guns), 20 cultists, 5 man squad and a sorcerer.
The fact these are all then able to move and act normally meant i could put a lot more pressure on my opponent than normal.
Sorcerer was placed in front of my line so he could use Warptime to slingshot a contemptor dreadnought into doing a turn one charge.
Raptors did damage to a Sicaran which meant a ranged unit could finish it off and then charged some marines. The cultists just made a nuisance of themselves.
I do like the ability to be more aggressive with Forward Ops that the FAQ has given.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Hmm and slaaneshi helldrakes if you really want to go fast.
Ofc you need to get the Herald close so that doesn't even..
Yeah, that was one of my problems with my Slaanesh Pocket-Rocket list. Tried Heldrakes with mounted Heralds, doesn't work unless your Drake's barrel-rolling in your DZ.
Opted to use mass Renegade bikes, Warptimed possessed, Maulerfiends with a private Herald entourage & Slaanesh Fiends. Basically, every Daemon with a base-movement of
10-14" is fine to be followed by a lady on steed, everything faster than that & she can't keep up.
Take a Mastodon, two squads of 9 Bersekers with Chainaxe/chainsword with a powerfist on the champ and banners. An Exalted Champion and a Lord, and two Contemptors with Kheres Assault Cannon and death claw
It’s pretty much a 2k Army, and you only get 4 Command points since it has to be a Vanguard, but a giant Khorne Partybus would be fun.
Take a Mastodon, two squads of 9 Bersekers with Chainaxe/chainsword with a powerfist on the champ and banners. An Exalted Champion and a Lord, and two Contemptors with Kheres Assault Cannon and death claw
It’s pretty much a 2k Army, and you only get 4 Command points since it has to be a Vanguard, but a giant Khorne Partybus would be fun.
shandy al wrote: Played my Alpha Legion last night in first battle since the FAQ.
Increase in command points for battalion is great as it allows more Forward Operatives - i picked four units rather than the usual two.
Raptors (with two melta guns), 20 cultists, 5 man squad and a sorcerer.
The fact these are all then able to move and act normally meant i could put a lot more pressure on my opponent than normal.
Sorcerer was placed in front of my line so he could use Warptime to slingshot a contemptor dreadnought into doing a turn one charge.
Raptors did damage to a Sicaran which meant a ranged unit could finish it off and then charged some marines. The cultists just made a nuisance of themselves.
I do like the ability to be more aggressive with Forward Ops that the FAQ has given.
Infiltrating melta Raptors is neat, I'd never thought of that.
Seriously, post FAQ, I'm having a real hard time forcing myself to play not-alpha legion. It used to be a toss up between that and Renegades, but the hits to deepstrike/warptime and more CP tip the scales. If only Renegades had VoTL.
So that whole community post with the graphic that essentially said that the beta matched play rules don't apply to strategems and abilities for units already setup on the board at the start of the game (e.g. Cultist w/ the Tide of Traitors stratagem) - is that an official ruling as far as the beta rule goes? It's like a mini FAQ for a FAQ...
eternalxfl wrote: So that whole community post with the graphic that essentially said that the beta matched play rules don't apply to strategems and abilities for units already setup on the board at the start of the game (e.g. Cultist w/ the Tide of Traitors stratagem) - is that an official ruling as far as the beta rule goes? It's like a mini FAQ for a FAQ...
It's official guidance on an unofficial rule.
I'd expect anyone using the beta rules would follow it. I'd expect it to be included in the final release of the rules.
eternalxfl wrote: So that whole community post with the graphic that essentially said that the beta matched play rules don't apply to strategems and abilities for units already setup on the board at the start of the game (e.g. Cultist w/ the Tide of Traitors stratagem) - is that an official ruling as far as the beta rule goes? It's like a mini FAQ for a FAQ...
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
I take a unit of slaanesh havocs and oblits, this is a good option when I roll poorly for my oblits fleshmetal guns.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
I take a unit of slaanesh havocs and oblits, this is a good option when I roll poorly for my oblits fleshmetal guns.
Point of order - that sounds like you’re rolling once for Fleshmetal and using that profile for the entire phase, using EC on Havocs when Oblits roll three 1’s? You generate a unit’s Fleshmetal profile whenever you select it to attack, with EC (or, with Mutilators, FoK) initiating a new selecting of the unit and a new profile for the guns.
I’ve been using Khorne Obliterators near a Khorne Daemon herald with the Crimson Crown relic to decent effect. Pop Veterans of the Lost War and they’re generating additional shots on every 5+ wound roll. Not quite as efficient as Slaanesh Oblits but when you’re sticking to only Khorne you gotta take what you can. Plus it works with all the other Khorne daemons, and amplifies the hell out of stuff like a Lord of Skulls.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
....Slannesh havocs with lascannons. strat to make em shoot twice. buy 4 get 4 FREEEEEEEEEEEE
I take a unit of slaanesh havocs and oblits, this is a good option when I roll poorly for my oblits fleshmetal guns.
Point of order - that sounds like you’re rolling once for Fleshmetal and using that profile for the entire phase, using EC on Havocs when Oblits roll three 1’s? You generate a unit’s Fleshmetal profile whenever you select it to attack, with EC (or, with Mutilators, FoK) initiating a new selecting of the unit and a new profile for the guns.
I dont think our group has been playing this rule consistently. Think I must have misread the rule because last time I read it, it didnt seem clear if stats stayed for the shooting phase, and as endless carcophony doesnt start a new shooting phase you wouldnt reroll.
But rereading them again I think you are likely right, as the last part of the datasheet says stats stay for that shooting or overwatch attack.
You roll for their stats every time you pick the unit to shoot.
This is a key point because it means you can see what heir profile is gonna be before you decide what you wannt shoot at!
also a good strat to whack on them is vets of the long war for the +1 to wound (and you can decide to use this after they roll their profile too!) because this does last the entire phase so if you fire them again with the EC strat you still get the +1 to wound.
techsoldaten wrote: [ I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
Abaddon, Cultists, 3 Laspreds, 3 x 10 man CSM squads with 2 Lascannons each, and 2 x Helbrutes with Twin Lascannons. That gives you 22 Lascannons with rerolls to hit and a ton of bodies to get through.
Shoot up your opponents tanks / big stuff turn 1, shoot up the elite units turn 2, deal with chaff the rest of the game.
Set up your army so the cultists are on an outer screen, the CSMs are on an inner screen, and the Helbrutes and Preds are in the middle with Abaddon. Deploy as close to your own table edge as possible, the army should look like a big bubble with Abaddon in the middle. If LOS blocking terrain is an issue, you can split your forces, but it's best to have the CSMs set up so they can conga line back to Abaddon. There are a lot of ways to do this, ideally you want a situation where the only unit that can be charged before turn 4 is Cultists.
This list can be further optimized, but it's pretty hard as-is. You can go up to 30 lascannons in a 2000 point list, but that's usually overkill. It's better to have a Daemon Prince & Sorcerer standing around with Death Hex / Prescience / Warp Time to deal with situations that will come up. Most opponents are geared to take out a Laspred and maybe a Helbrute in the first couple turns, even 14 Lascannons is a lot when you have rerolls to hit.
The FAQ helped and hurt lascannon spam lists. The new deep strike rules make it a lot easier to run, but the changes to Tide of Traitors made objective games a little more challenging. The 3 datascheet limit hurts too, I used to run a variant with 4 Laspreds and can't do that anymore.
Someone mentioned Slaanesh Havocs. That's a neat idea, but Endless Cacophony uses command points. I don't use many Stratagems with this list except for rerolls to wound and Tide of Traitors, which are both very important with Lascannons. You want to make sure you kill what you shoot, and you want Tide of Traitors so you can walk onto an objective late game (if that matters). If you can fit 40 Cultists into a single squad, do that, but I usually have a hard time finding the points.
The thing to remember about this list is Cultists shennanigans matter as much as the lascannons. One very valid thing to do is pull bodies from a combat so that your Cultists are no longer in that combat, exposing your opponent to 60+ bolter shots with rerolls the next turn. I try to stretch them out as far as possible and only consolidate when I am trying to tie up a unit.
EverlastingNewb wrote: LoS blocking Terrain is a must - it almost sound like you play with an open field.
Overall, this is one of the biggest problems i had with 40k - people don't use enough terrain or play with GW terrain (which is full of holes).
Nah, I don't play on open fields.
The rules for cover don't do enough to protect vehicles, flyers are always a target, and you can spread out in such a way that there's an angle to most objective (which is where your opponent will go.) You just want to keep units within 6 inches of Abaddon, and you can usually figure out where to put him before deployment begins.
It's fine to wait a turn or two to shoot stuff up, opponents always reveal themselves.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
Abaddon, Cultists, 3 Laspreds, 3 x 10 man CSM squads with 2 Lascannons each, and 2 x Helbrutes with Twin Lascannons. That gives you 22 Lascannons with rerolls to hit and a ton of bodies to get through.
Shoot up your opponents tanks / big stuff turn 1, shoot up the elite units turn 2, deal with chaff the rest of the game.
Set up your army so the cultists are on an outer screen, the CSMs are on an inner screen, and the Helbrutes and Preds are in the middle with Abaddon. Deploy as close to your own table edge as possible, the army should look like a big bubble with Abaddon in the middle. If LOS blocking terrain is an issue, you can split your forces, but it's best to have the CSMs set up so they can conga line back to Abaddon. There are a lot of ways to do this, ideally you want a situation where the only unit that can be charged before turn 4 is Cultists.
This list can be further optimized, but it's pretty hard as-is. You can go up to 30 lascannons in a 2000 point list, but that's usually overkill. It's better to have a Daemon Prince & Sorcerer standing around with Death Hex / Prescience / Warp Time to deal with situations that will come up. Most opponents are geared to take out a Laspred and maybe a Helbrute in the first couple turns, even 14 Lascannons is a lot when you have rerolls to hit.
The FAQ helped and hurt lascannon spam lists. The new deep strike rules make it a lot easier to run, but the changes to Tide of Traitors made objective games a little more challenging. The 3 datascheet limit hurts too, I used to run a variant with 4 Laspreds and can't do that anymore.
Someone mentioned Slaanesh Havocs. That's a neat idea, but Endless Cacophony uses command points. I don't use many Stratagems with this list except for rerolls to wound and Tide of Traitors, which are both very important with Lascannons. You want to make sure you kill what you shoot, and you want Tide of Traitors so you can walk onto an objective late game (if that matters). If you can fit 40 Cultists into a single squad, do that, but I usually have a hard time finding the points.
The thing to remember about this list is Cultists shennanigans matter as much as the lascannons. One very valid thing to do is pull bodies from a combat so that your Cultists are no longer in that combat, exposing your opponent to 60+ bolter shots with rerolls the next turn. I try to stretch them out as far as possible and only consolidate when I am trying to tie up a unit.
Anyways, that's lascannon spam. It works.
EDIT: typos
Really awesome rundown, cheers! Do you run them all as black legion? In fact, would you mind posting your full list?
Yeah, I run Black Legion (but may be moving onto Emperor's Children in the near future.)
The Legion Trait is a very important mechanic turn 5 and beyond, being able to advance and shoot becomes essential when you have been sitting on your own table edge most of the game. And this list isn't near as good without Abaddon, you have to kill what you shoot.
I will post the full list when I get a chance and link to it here.
The only reason for Black Legion at all is Abigail. The trait itself and the Relic are hot garbage, and the Strategem is real frickin redundant as it's a copy of the Ultramarines one for all intents and purposes.
Use stuff that shoots well and then a Terminator bodyguard for him, and infiltrate Cultists with Alpha Legion and watch them never leave because Abigail doesn't let them. While they gain no firepower like Black Legion ones would...when would Black Legion ones ever get close, even WITH the trait?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only reason for Black Legion at all is Abigail. The trait itself and the Relic are hot garbage, and the Strategem is real frickin redundant as it's a copy of the Ultramarines one for all intents and purposes.
Use stuff that shoots well and then a Terminator bodyguard for him, and infiltrate Cultists with Alpha Legion and watch them never leave because Abigail doesn't let them. While they gain no firepower like Black Legion ones would...when would Black Legion ones ever get close, even WITH the trait?
Two possible reasons come to mind:
- you’ve given them Flamers; 4D6 autohits isn’t terrible, and you’ve solved the problem inherent to forty low Ld models
- you’re trying to revive the dead Poxwalker horse
Badablack wrote: I’ve been using Khorne Obliterators near a Khorne Daemon herald with the Crimson Crown relic to decent effect. Pop Veterans of the Lost War and they’re generating additional shots on every 5+ wound roll. Not quite as efficient as Slaanesh Oblits but when you’re sticking to only Khorne you gotta take what you can. Plus it works with all the other Khorne daemons, and amplifies the hell out of stuff like a Lord of Skulls.
techsoldaten wrote: [
I've been taking it that way. There's a bunch of people who want to argue about whether or not it's official enough, maybe someday they will be rewarded for their skepticism. But I can't imagine GW putting that together only to contradict themselves.
I can, unfortunately.
The rules team is a bunch of Tzeentch followers who change direction based on the way the wind blows. We all know that.
But this one... I think they are trying to be clear there's a difference between things that are one the board at the start of the game, and things that aren't. That's how I'm playing it, until I hear different.
This deep strike ruling, plus the Tide of Traitors change, has ruined a couple of my lists. While I can fall back on lascannon spam, it's nice getting to try different units again.
Im curious... how do you do lascannon spam with chaos?
Abaddon, Cultists, 3 Laspreds, 3 x 10 man CSM squads with 2 Lascannons each, and 2 x Helbrutes with Twin Lascannons. That gives you 22 Lascannons with rerolls to hit and a ton of bodies to get through.
Shoot up your opponents tanks / big stuff turn 1, shoot up the elite units turn 2, deal with chaff the rest of the game.
Set up your army so the cultists are on an outer screen, the CSMs are on an inner screen, and the Helbrutes and Preds are in the middle with Abaddon. Deploy as close to your own table edge as possible, the army should look like a big bubble with Abaddon in the middle. If LOS blocking terrain is an issue, you can split your forces, but it's best to have the CSMs set up so they can conga line back to Abaddon. There are a lot of ways to do this, ideally you want a situation where the only unit that can be charged before turn 4 is Cultists.
This list can be further optimized, but it's pretty hard as-is. You can go up to 30 lascannons in a 2000 point list, but that's usually overkill. It's better to have a Daemon Prince & Sorcerer standing around with Death Hex / Prescience / Warp Time to deal with situations that will come up. Most opponents are geared to take out a Laspred and maybe a Helbrute in the first couple turns, even 14 Lascannons is a lot when you have rerolls to hit.
The FAQ helped and hurt lascannon spam lists. The new deep strike rules make it a lot easier to run, but the changes to Tide of Traitors made objective games a little more challenging. The 3 datascheet limit hurts too, I used to run a variant with 4 Laspreds and can't do that anymore.
Someone mentioned Slaanesh Havocs. That's a neat idea, but Endless Cacophony uses command points. I don't use many Stratagems with this list except for rerolls to wound and Tide of Traitors, which are both very important with Lascannons. You want to make sure you kill what you shoot, and you want Tide of Traitors so you can walk onto an objective late game (if that matters). If you can fit 40 Cultists into a single squad, do that, but I usually have a hard time finding the points.
The thing to remember about this list is Cultists shennanigans matter as much as the lascannons. One very valid thing to do is pull bodies from a combat so that your Cultists are no longer in that combat, exposing your opponent to 60+ bolter shots with rerolls the next turn. I try to stretch them out as far as possible and only consolidate when I am trying to tie up a unit.
Anyways, that's lascannon spam. It works.
EDIT: typos
Thats a whole lot of Lascannons. It definitely works, though; fearless cultists are still definitely a thing. Even with the nerf to tides, 40 fearless cultists is hard to move without some serious firepower
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only reason for Black Legion at all is Abigail. The trait itself and the Relic are hot garbage, and the Strategem is real frickin redundant as it's a copy of the Ultramarines one for all intents and purposes.
Use stuff that shoots well and then a Terminator bodyguard for him, and infiltrate Cultists with Alpha Legion and watch them never leave because Abigail doesn't let them. While they gain no firepower like Black Legion ones would...when would Black Legion ones ever get close, even WITH the trait?
Two possible reasons come to mind:
- you’ve given them Flamers; 4D6 autohits isn’t terrible, and you’ve solved the problem inherent to forty low Ld models
- you’re trying to revive the dead Poxwalker horse
When I used the word "when", I meant that they aren't getting closer because of speed.
but you must now put Abbadon on the table, or until turn 2 you cant have fearless and to hit re rolls, what about oblys then? if they AiP most probably they will be out of Abby aura
blackmage wrote: but you must now put Abbadon on the table, or until turn 2 you cant have fearless and to hit re rolls, what about oblys then? if they AiP most probably they will be out of Abby aura
Abigail is always implied to start on the table. He's way too expensive to be sitting in reserves and not buffing anything.
are all those lascannons needed? many armies play lot of bodies and not so much heavy armors, 20 lascannons seems redundant, seems like you lack anti hordes fire, what about put at least obliterators to give some "mass shooting". I ve seen a list similar to your doing good to a major event, but he played 9 obly+lord
i will try a similar thing but 1 less hellbrute and 14 noise marines, so it should perform better against hordes. There is a thing mainly worry me, about objectives, not that easy grab and take it
This weekend I'll be having a doubles game, my partner is taking a horde of cultists with the Fearless warlord trait for Iron Warriors; gonna see how it fairs! Basically a budget Abaddon, without all the other great rules >.>
Zid wrote: This weekend I'll be having a doubles game, my partner is taking a horde of cultists with the Fearless warlord trait for Iron Warriors; gonna see how it fairs! Basically a budget Abaddon, without all the other great rules >.>
Well That depends on how valuable you consider his other rules. Iron Warriors will have Cultists ignoring cover, but I'm guessing that against certain targets you'd rather have rerolling ALL failures rather than JUST 1's Ignoring Cover. With the BS3+ units you might want ignoring cover more though.
blackmage wrote: are all those lascannons needed? many armies play lot of bodies and not so much heavy armors, 20 lascannons seems redundant, seems like you lack anti hordes fire, what about put at least obliterators to give some "mass shooting". I ve seen a list similar to your doing good to a major event, but he played 9 obly+lord
i will try a similar thing but 1 less hellbrute and 14 noise marines, so it should perform better against hordes. There is a thing mainly worry me, about objectives, not that easy grab and take it
Well, that's a great question, and one that comes up often. Yes, horde armies are a thing, and yes, this list has ample anti-horde in the form of screens, beatsticks, and lascannons.
In general, when I play a Black Legion gunline, I am looking to kill armor (which includes monsters,) then elites, then troops. The idea is that, whatever horde gets to you, it's been whittled down to the point where it can't stand up to the Daemon Prince / Helbrute w/ Lasher Tendrils / Abaddon. The screen around the beatsticks is there to keep them from being charged, but also to ensure they get the charge.
This breaks down when the area is saturated, the example I always point to is 100+ boys. It's not hard for this crew to put 30 wounds on a mob in a single turn, it's dealing with the other 70 that matters. I try to think of it as a flow control problem, the key is making sure sure there aren't that many coming in a single turn. Like, I won't shoot at Trukks when there are boys on the board, I would rather some boys get there a turn early so I can work on them in batches.
What worries me more is better gunlines. I have yet to play the new Tau Codex with this list, but suspect it's not completely terrible. The thing about lascannons versus infantry is they kill what they wound.
blackmage wrote: are all those lascannons needed? many armies play lot of bodies and not so much heavy armors, 20 lascannons seems redundant, seems like you lack anti hordes fire, what about put at least obliterators to give some "mass shooting". I ve seen a list similar to your doing good to a major event, but he played 9 obly+lord
i will try a similar thing but 1 less hellbrute and 14 noise marines, so it should perform better against hordes. There is a thing mainly worry me, about objectives, not that easy grab and take it
Well, that's a great question, and one that comes up often. Yes, horde armies are a thing, and yes, this list has ample anti-horde in the form of screens, beatsticks, and lascannons.
In general, when I play a Black Legion gunline, I am looking to kill armor (which includes monsters,) then elites, then troops. The idea is that, whatever horde gets to you, it's been whittled down to the point where it can't stand up to the Daemon Prince / Helbrute w/ Lasher Tendrils / Abaddon. The screen around the beatsticks is there to keep them from being charged, but also to ensure they get the charge.
This breaks down when the area is saturated, the example I always point to is 100+ boys. It's not hard for this crew to put 30 wounds on a mob in a single turn, it's dealing with the other 70 that matters. I try to think of it as a flow control problem, the key is making sure sure there aren't that many coming in a single turn. Like, I won't shoot at Trukks when there are boys on the board, I would rather some boys get there a turn early so I can work on them in batches.
What worries me more is better gunlines. I have yet to play the new Tau Codex with this list, but suspect it's not completely terrible. The thing about lascannons versus infantry is they kill what they wound.
lascannons will never keep at bay 100 more models, surely you have more experience than me with that list but actually too much bodies in many armies, i cant ever think to use 20 lascannons then face 150+ tyr models for example. Beside killing them main problem are objectives and maelstrom where you cant stay fix in a corner shooting.
blackmage wrote: lascannons will never keep at bay 100 more models, surely you have more experience than me with that list but actually too much bodies in many armies, i cant ever think to use 20 lascannons then face 150+ tyr models for example. Beside killing them main problem are objectives and maelstrom where you cant stay fix in a corner shooting.
Here's how lsacannon spam takes out 100+ models.
1) Stand on your own table edge. Make those 100+ models come at you.
2) Wipe out anything with ranged shooting as quickly as possible. Give yourself a round or two where you can shoot but your opponent can't.
3) Fire those lascannons into infantry. Unless they are immune from morale, big squads lose a lot of models when they take 12+ lascannon shots. Don't get confused and think about the shots as wasted on one-wound infantry, you are softening up a giant blob.
4) Use your Cultist screens to position your opponents for your beatsticks. Fall back, kill off models to remove the unit from combat, or just let them die. That leaves the charging unit exposed.
5) Have 60+ bolter shots ready to go when the Cultist screen falls back. Soften up your opponent.
6) Charge with Abaddon, a dual-talon DP, and a Helbrute with lasher tendrils to kill whatever is still standing.
This list has trouble with Orks and Tyrannids, but that doesn't mean it just loses to them. I've tabled 120+ Orks with a Black Legion gunline several times.
blackmage wrote: lascannons will never keep at bay 100 more models, surely you have more experience than me with that list but actually too much bodies in many armies, i cant ever think to use 20 lascannons then face 150+ tyr models for example. Beside killing them main problem are objectives and maelstrom where you cant stay fix in a corner shooting.
Here's how lsacannon spam takes out 100+ models.
1) Stand on your own table edge. Make those 100+ models come at you.
2) Wipe out anything with ranged shooting as quickly as possible. Give yourself a round or two where you can shoot but your opponent can't.
3) Fire those lascannons into infantry. Unless they are immune from morale, big squads lose a lot of models when they take 12+ lascannon shots. Don't get confused and think about the shots as wasted on one-wound infantry, you are softening up a giant blob.
4) Use your Cultist screens to position your opponents for your beatsticks. Fall back, kill off models to remove the unit from combat, or just let them die. That leaves the charging unit exposed.
5) Have 60+ bolter shots ready to go when the Cultist screen falls back. Soften up your opponent.
6) Charge with Abaddon, a dual-talon DP, and a Helbrute with lasher tendrils to kill whatever is still standing.
This list has trouble with Orks and Tyrannids, but that doesn't mean it just loses to them. I've tabled 120+ Orks with a Black Legion gunline several times.
What ruleset are you using? Have you had significant success in objective games too? The way you describe it sounds like Eternal War.
If this is working well honestly kudos to you - it is just in a horde driven meta it is surprising to hear about a successful Chaos Lascannon list.
Freeing up some points for quad heavy bolter rapiers might work out. I've been running those, 12 las cannon havocs with potential endless cacophony, a leviathan dread and a deredeo.
If you put prescience and votl on the fire twice havoc squad you are deleting a lot of armor that could potentially hurt the dreadnoughts. Deredeo with butcher array and havoc launcher mulches infantry squads and dual grav leviathan mulches everything. Quad bolter rapiers then clean up.
orkswubwub wrote: What ruleset are you using? Have you had significant success in objective games too? The way you describe it sounds like Eternal War.
If this is working well honestly kudos to you - it is just in a horde driven meta it is surprising to hear about a successful Chaos Lascannon list.
That's a good question. This list plays about the same with kill points, objectives, and tactical objectives.
Most games, I roll off for missions just like everyone else (unless we decide to just play straight kill points - which always works for me.) I play Eternal War and Maelstrom of War missions. The ones that put me at the biggest disadvantage are Recon and Roving Patrol from Chapter Approved, since I can't guarantee Abaddon will be on the board. Also, there's no guarantee my opponent's forces will be there either, which can throw the game plan into disarray.
That said, I'm not always trying to score victory points. I'm often trying to deny my opponent victory points.
Once my army is deployed, I am usually near 2 objectives that can be taken just by moving forward with the Cultist screen (if I'm not already on them.) At that point, I usually have LOS to at least 2 more objectives. Once I've dealt with tanks / monsters, the next step is to clear out elites. Elites tend to congregate around objectives, either to hold them or on their way to fight my army. So destroying those units often aligns with clearing out objectives.
One thing I urge anyone to remember, when it comes to clearing objectives - it's not always about the damage the lascannons do, it's the morale. Most units cannot stand up to a lascannon shot, much less 12. Pick off 6 models from a 10 man Ld 8 unit and watch the rest flee at the end of the turn. Pick off 6 from 2 units and you are doing it right. With rerolls to hit, this is not just possible, but likely.
With tactical objectives, the easy ones are Overwhelming Firepower, Hold the Line, The Long War, For the Dark Gods, and the Secure / Defend cards. Supremacy is usually easy to get, an opponent would have to table me to get me off the first 2 objectives and I can use Tide of Traitors to get Cultists to a third if I need it.
OTOH, my opponents aren't racking up a lot of VPs when their tanks have been wiped out and the nearest target is 36 inches away. They are not getting Blood and Guts when all they have to charge is Cultists who are spread out 1.5 inches away from one another, immune to morale, and refuse to consolidate. If they choose to sit on an objective, that's not going to last long.
Again, I'm not saying this is an autowin list, or even the best Chaos list out there. I call it a gunline and not 'lascannon spam' for a reason. The lascannons are important, but the Cultist shenanigans are just as important for confounding your opponent and shutting down all sorts of enemy tactics. Abaddon, the DP and the Helbrutes become essential when you need to wipe out a charging unit.
I've just had a lot of success with the gunline and enjoyed playing it since early in 8th edition. If you want to beat someone in a victory point game, this list offers some excellent ways to deny them to your opponent. If you want to beat someone in a kill point game, this list offers some excellent ways to clear your opponent's most dangerous units at the start of the game while creating some very favorable conditions for the Black Legion.
I’m seeing arguments to start Noise Marines on the board in a Kharybdis
If you don’t get first turn and it gets shot up, you place the NMs into play and then some get slain and slain models get to MotA. Not a bad chance you’ll get to shoot some of their footsloggers before they shoot as your opponent will likely want to kill the damned thing ASAP
If you leave it’s deployment for last, your opponent will be expecting it to DS and won’t deploy to screen it. High density deployment with intent to scatter and fill the table is asking for it to be Warptimed it into the enemy army. It’s movement, thermal jets, and Melta cutters don’t deteriorate, so if it has 1W left, that’s quite a bomb to drop. Maybe throw on Diabolic Strength and Delightful Agonies, just to really rub it in. Large enough to cast the spells from outside DTW range
Biker Lord can keep pace to give it re-roll to hit on MC, leaving your commans re-roll for when you inevitably get a 1 to wound
Interesting synergy with Linebreaker Bombardment, so long as you can keep it just out of the epicentre
I want more discussion on the shooty chaos lists. I have tried to make more melee oriented CSM lists, but those have so far always fallen flat. Fodder and bubble wrap makes it really tough. And nowadays, our hard melee characters aren't even necessarily the most killy as well. One good example would be that blood angels captain. That guy wrecks face, and the most scary thing is, after he dies, they can use one more strategem to make him strike back one last time in melee. He actually has a very small profile (in terms of area taken up), and he has a jump pack so its not hard for him to fly over the fodder to get to where he wants. And being a character, he benefits from character rules as well if he is attacking along with his other death company buddies.
Anyone tried a DP of Slanesh, dual talons, w/ Delightful Agonies and Intoxicating Elixir? 8 Str 8 attacks and being able to give FnP to a unit of cultists to hide behind seems pretty stronk
Zid wrote: Anyone tried a DP of Slanesh, dual talons, w/ Delightful Agonies and Intoxicating Elixir? 8 Str 8 attacks and being able to give FnP to a unit of cultists to hide behind seems pretty stronk
That's one of the first / original ideas when the codex first dropped. It works ok, but the issue is your dp wants to be moving faster than the cultists can move. If you have some restraint and can maneuver things well it's a powerful little combo.
I find I prefer taking Delightful Agonies on a Sorcerer. It has an 18 inch range which gives it a bit more flexibility in its application. With a Jump Pack, a Sorcerer can usually be in position by the psychic phase to cast it on whoever needs it.
For the Prince specifically, I'll usually put on one of the shorter range psychic powers. Death Hex if I expect to be facing heavy invulnerable saves like Storm Shields, Gift of Chaos if the opponent has low toughness characters, Warptime if I need a long charge. The Prince will generally be more toward the front lines than the Sorcerer so is more readily able to take the shorter range psychic powers, while the Sorcerer can apply the longer range ones like delightful agonies and prescience from a safer distance.
Yeah, DA is powerful,and there’s no need to expose it to DTW if you can avoid it. DH is fine for a rushdown character as when you cast it, it’ll be hard to dispel. Similarly Diabolic Strength, of all our spells it’s probably the most disposable for baiting out DTW when we need to.
With forgeworld doing a sale this month on the Deredeo, Contemptor, And Leviathan( buy a dread and an arm, get the second arm free) how does everyone feel about those Hellforged Friends of ours?
I’m thinking about running a Deredeo with Havoc Launcher and Butcher Cannons, a Claw and Grav Leviathan And a Claw/Kheres Contemptor alongside a Defiler
I just nabbed a couple myself. Going butcher deredeo, double butcher leviathan, and double grav flux leviathan. Gonna warp time the grav fluxes into range.
Supreme Command Detachment, Thousand Sons [491] + 1 CP HQ1: Ahriman (131) – [131]
HQ2: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Wings (170), two sets of Malefic Talons (10) – WARLORD – [180]
HQ3: Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Wings (170), two sets of Malefic Talons (10), Helm of the Third Eye – [180]
Do we have a definite answer to the question of whether a Chaos Familiar can replace Smite? RAW it’s a fairly safe call, but it’s a bit convoluted and loopholey and I’d like to be on very safe ground when my Warpflame Rubricae jump out of a Termite, Advance, Familiar away their Smite for Warptime, and then Advance again to torch some unit that reckoned they were a distant threat and my Warptimer was on the other side of the battlefield.
Yeah, well, it's nerfed like pretty much every deep striker, this is one way to deliver a warp timer. The termite has the distinction of being a deep strike vehicle that doesn't force everyone to disembark upon arrival. This was really interesting when alpha and DS warptime were allowed.
Of course, right now, it's probably more efficient to just run a Rhino at them and try to overheat its combi-plasma on the first turn. Or send them up in a Land Raider.
Grav flux bombards are super nasty. You could potentially one shot a Lord of War or a full 40 man horde after morale. Short range is only limiting factor
I'm sure this was asked and generally answered weeks ago but: can I summon units outside my deployment zone turn one?
Edit: did a search and saw that it was reasoned out that summoning may be effected, but there's been no official ruling on it specifically. The wording sure doesn't sound good though.
andysonic1 wrote: I'm sure this was asked and generally answered weeks ago but: can I summon units outside my deployment zone turn one?
Edit: did a search and saw that it was reasoned out that summoning may be effected, but there's been no official ruling on it specifically. The wording sure doesn't sound good though.
The rule of thumb is only things that started on the board can 'arrive' outside your deployment zone turn one.
So I would say no, but the beta rules aren't specific. Talk with your opponent first. I've allowed it in a couple games where it came up.
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Bluthusten wrote: Hey guys, i wanna add some forgeworld to my Chaos Marines.
I though about a Leviathan or a Deredeo ?
Whats your favorite? and whats our "best" forgeworld uni? i wanna play a tournament in 5 weeks and i need some backup
or they just to weak for competitive play?
The best Forgeworld unit IMHO is the Decimator with Twin Soulburner petards. BS 3 and all hits automatically cause a mortal wound. The Leviathan has a similar weapon, but it's heavy, not assault.
If you are looking for a deal, sure, the Leviathan is great. Just got a Deredeo, but that's because I already have a Leviathan.
Bluthusten wrote: Hey guys, i wanna add some forgeworld to my Chaos Marines.
I though about a Leviathan or a Deredeo ?
Whats your favorite? and whats our "best" forgeworld uni? i wanna play a tournament in 5 weeks and i need some backup
or they just to weak for competitive play?
I also think it bears noting that forgeworld does not imply OP this edition. Almost none of the top chaos lists ran forgeworld units in any prior tournament I can remember
Badablack wrote: Decimators are pretty great, but kinda fragile and pricey. And after one game your opponent will focus it down turn 1 every time.
Yeah. It's about the same stats as a Helbrute, it usually works out to about 40 points more for me.
If you are taking Helbrutes anyway, it may be worth the points for the 2 inches of extra movement and the 4D3 assault weapons that do mortal wounds on each hit.
The way I used to run it was with a Sorcerer casting Warp Time for 20 inches of movement first turn. That works out to a 44 inch threat radius on something that is great at killing Terminators / Custodes / Wraiththings / large squads of light infantry.
The downside was I wanted to go second when I had one of these, the good stuff had not deep struck. And when I went second, sometimes it got killed. The wound regeneration helped, but not enough to keep it on the table as long as I wanted.
In a vacuum I would lean towards Axes in 8th edition, even if they are a bit more expensive than the swords. s5 is a pretty big jump over s4. It lets you wound MEQ on a 3+ and makes fighting t5 stuff (which isn't that rare) on a 4+. Ap2 is also a pretty good compromise, as vs many cc opponents too much AP is wasted due to the invulnerable save capping what you can do. The one thing swords do for you is they are the cheapest power weapon, and you are already hemorrhaging points on this squad. You can also pair the greater AP of swords with Death Hex, although that is a very expensive power at WC 8, and any advantage you gain by comboing these will likely be cancelled out by the strength drop.
I would magnitize your terminators if you can though, it may very well be that Combi Plasma no longer becomes the optimal loadout for terminators and you want to switch them back to combi melta or even cheap combi bolters. Or one day the Reaper Auto Cannon becomes good again and you want to take 2 of them, or an Emperor's Children Book comes out and they are given access to Blast Masters or Twin Linked Blasters You may even want a power fist or two so you can scare characters away with the risk of multi wounds, fists aren't breaking the bank at 12 points.
andysonic1 wrote: I'm sure this was asked and generally answered weeks ago but: can I summon units outside my deployment zone turn one?
Edit: did a search and saw that it was reasoned out that summoning may be effected, but there's been no official ruling on it specifically. The wording sure doesn't sound good though.
The rule of thumb is only things that started on the board can 'arrive' outside your deployment zone turn one.
So I would say no, but the beta rules aren't specific. Talk with your opponent first. I've allowed it in a couple games where it came up.
I sent an email to the bois at ITC. They've been good about answering these kinds of questions.
In a vacuum I would lean towards Axes in 8th edition, even if they are a bit more expensive than the swords. s5 is a pretty big jump over s4. It lets you wound MEQ on a 3+ and makes fighting t5 stuff (which isn't that rare) on a 4+. Ap2 is also a pretty good compromise, as vs many cc opponents too much AP is wasted due to the invulnerable save capping what you can do. The one thing swords do for you is they are the cheapest power weapon, and you are already hemorrhaging points on this squad. You can also pair the greater AP of swords with Death Hex, although that is a very expensive power at WC 8, and any advantage you gain by comboing these will likely be cancelled out by the strength drop.
I would magnitize your terminators if you can though, it may very well be that Combi Plasma no longer becomes the optimal loadout for terminators and you want to switch them back to combi melta or even cheap combi bolters. Or one day the Reaper Auto Cannon becomes good again and you want to take 2 of them, or an Emperor's Children Book comes out and they are given access to Blast Masters or Twin Linked Blasters You may even want a power fist or two so you can scare characters away with the risk of multi wounds, fists aren't breaking the bank at 12 points.
For the record, magnetizing Chaos Terminators is easy. It takes me maybe 10 minutes additional time of assembly drilling holes in the torsos / arms and mounting the magnets. The only additional expense you should have is buying Terminator shoulder pads, you will need a few extra to do all the weapon options.
The one thing to watch out for is that the magnets are flush, and make sure there is some contact between the surfaces of the arms and torsos. Especially on Reaper Autocannons and Storm Bolter arms, which are heavy and will dip when attached.
One thing people have been doing is putting ferrous metal in the torso instead of an additional magnet to avoid issues with polarity. I think this is a great idea and worth it to simplify the process.
blackmage wrote: i can be wrong but... if i remember summoned units comes from reserves (im not sure that's the wording) so i guess you cant.
Summoned units come from a reserve, yes. This allows you to bring in literally whatever you want with the points you have. Want to bring in a Bloodletter bomb one turn and screamers the next? The world is your starfish!
Dr.Duck wrote: Not sure I wanna magnetize my terms so swords or axes for a 10 man MoSplas term squad?
I've magnetized my berserkers, CSM's/Havoks and Terminators and I've no regrets. You spend a little bit of money ordering extra bits like shoulder pads and armaments, but it saves you money from buying entirely new kits and saves you the labor and space of having to paint and store models equipped with the exact armament you need. It is 100% the way to go. My workflow is extremely streamlined at this point and takes me VERY little time. In hindsight, I would change my workflow a bit to putting ferrous metal in the torso or arm bits as opposed to magnetizing both. Early on in my magnetizing process I had a couple of models with reversed polarity which sucks, but lesson learned.
On a side note, what are the communities thoughts on the Chaos Assault Storm Eagle? I'd be utilizing it as a transport for my World Eater berserkers, and before someone comments about the Kharybdis, there's no way I'm spending that kind of money on that. But yea, my rhino's are still having trouble getting where they need to be. I figure that with the Storm Eagle, my Berserkers should be ready for a turn 2 assault (given it endures the first turn fire storm). The armaments seem nice and it's just slightly more expensive than a Land Raider I believe plus it holds twice as many units as a LR and it gets the hard to hit flyer rule.
IW fluff: big blob of chaff surrounding long range artillery dug into fortifications with some bois for moving forward. They also enjoy use of Daemon Engines and large blasty cannons.
andysonic1 wrote: IW fluff: big blob of chaff surrounding long range artillery dug into fortifications with some bois for moving forward. They also enjoy use of Daemon Engines and large blasty cannons.
Okay for a good play in tabletop i need:
-Blob of cultists supported by a Lord with IW trait (fearless)
-some rapier batterys
-a bastion
-tanks/Cybots
and someone who can smash some face (prince with IW relic)
...?
Given the horribleness of the existing Obliterator models, what do you guys think about using Forge World's "Myrmidon Destructors" as Obliterators for a Dark Mechanicus themed army?
I've recently started running a list that goes as follows:
DG Spearhead:
Prince, 2xTalons, Wings
2x PBC w/Spitters
2x FBD w/Spitters
Leviathan w/Butcher Cannons (I love double Grav Flux, but I tend to not use it well and it gets focused hard)
Daemons Battallion:
2x Poxbringer
3x3 Nurglings
That brings me to 1407pts (We usually play 1500). I have a few options to complete the list:
-15 Poxwalkers
-More Nurglings
-Foul Blightspawn
-DSing Feculent Gnarlmaw
Which do you think would benefit my army more? We play rulebook and CA missions, so sometimes I have end game scoring and sometimes progressive
i have a question, i have an incoming tournament and im thinking about morty+berzy+Ts supreme command, but i dont know how TO will set up the tables, not sure if will be enough block LOS to field things like Morty and rhinos, maybe better going more "conservative" and play drones+Dg DP? that tournament will not have maelstom missions, what do you think about? thx
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Kzraahk wrote: I've recently started running a list that goes as follows:
DG Spearhead:
Prince, 2xTalons, Wings
2x PBC w/Spitters
2x FBD w/Spitters
Leviathan w/Butcher Cannons (I love double Grav Flux, but I tend to not use it well and it gets focused hard)
Daemons Battallion:
2x Poxbringer
3x3 Nurglings
That brings me to 1407pts (We usually play 1500). I have a few options to complete the list:
-15 Poxwalkers
-More Nurglings
-Foul Blightspawn
-DSing Feculent Gnarlmaw
Which do you think would benefit my army more? We play rulebook and CA missions, so sometimes I have end game scoring and sometimes progressive
i would go for poxwalkers, still good also after last FAQ nerf.
So I had a game this weekend playing against a hardcore gunline in a 2v2. We got smashed, AM/Custodes and I played CSM/DG.
Dark angels with Azrael and a Lieutenant destroyed everything, even taking a demon prince down to 1 wound ON OVERWATCH (note: I did charge two units of devestators, and they did blow up and come back due to the ancient and shot hitting on a 3+ rerollable as well). Destroyers from the necrons made short work of demon princes as well (T6 vs T7 was a huge thing here).
Drones are far less survivable than PBC's for one key reason; overcharged plasma. Wounding on a 3+ vs a 4+ is a huge difference, but it also gives your opponent no choice; they must overcharge to hurt the PBC's reliably. Plus the +2 wounds is big.
That said, I'm looking at ways of making a CSM detachment that hits hard, and is mobile; doing the "billions of lascannons" thing is pretty meh. we'll get destroyed by similar lists from the SM side of things, and after seeing destroyers in action, 15 str 6 ap 3 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's.... I now see that we can't play the same "gunline" game as others. And I don't think we need to, because we can combine hard hitting units from several codices (1k sons, CSM) with resilient units (DG, nurgle).
Anyone have any experience running CSM Biker Lords? I'm thinking they may be a great supreme detachment; with a powerfist they can pummel stuff pretty well, attacking whatever they want with abandon. They move 14", giving them a sick 26" threat range. You can arm them with a variety of guns, while they are expensive, throwing a Combi-Plasma or a Melta means you can pew-pew before charging in to clobber something heavy. As well, 6 wounds, T5, and a 4++ isn't too shabby. I'm just not sure what mark you'd use. Plus, because they will be targeting vehicles/individual chars, you can use the boon stratagem to make them progressively deadlier. Top it off with targeting them with Diabolic Strength, Str 10 and 5 attacks doesn't seem so bad!
Zid wrote: So I had a game this weekend playing against a hardcore gunline in a 2v2. We got smashed, AM/Custodes and I played CSM/DG.
Dark angels with Azrael and a Lieutenant destroyed everything, even taking a demon prince down to 1 wound ON OVERWATCH (note: I did charge two units of devestators, and they did blow up and come back due to the ancient and shot hitting on a 3+ rerollable as well). Destroyers from the necrons made short work of demon princes as well (T6 vs T7 was a huge thing here).
Drones are far less survivable than PBC's for one key reason; overcharged plasma. Wounding on a 3+ vs a 4+ is a huge difference, but it also gives your opponent no choice; they must overcharge to hurt the PBC's reliably. Plus the +2 wounds is big.
That said, I'm looking at ways of making a CSM detachment that hits hard, and is mobile; doing the "billions of lascannons" thing is pretty meh. we'll get destroyed by similar lists from the SM side of things, and after seeing destroyers in action, 15 str 6 ap 3 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's.... I now see that we can't play the same "gunline" game as others. And I don't think we need to, because we can combine hard hitting units from several codices (1k sons, CSM) with resilient units (DG, nurgle).
Anyone have any experience running CSM Biker Lords? I'm thinking they may be a great supreme detachment; with a powerfist they can pummel stuff pretty well, attacking whatever they want with abandon. They move 14", giving them a sick 26" threat range. You can arm them with a variety of guns, while they are expensive, throwing a Combi-Plasma or a Melta means you can pew-pew before charging in to clobber something heavy. As well, 6 wounds, T5, and a 4++ isn't too shabby. I'm just not sure what mark you'd use. Plus, because they will be targeting vehicles/individual chars, you can use the boon stratagem to make them progressively deadlier. Top it off with targeting them with Diabolic Strength, Str 10 and 5 attacks doesn't seem so bad!
Honestly, biker lords are middling in my experience. Just make a jetpack lord, and hide him behind other jetpackers or even bikers. The bike isn't worth the points for what you get on a Lord, especailly since it uses the index Lord points, meaning it is just SLIGHTLY overcosted.
Zid wrote: So I had a game this weekend playing against a hardcore gunline in a 2v2. We got smashed, AM/Custodes and I played CSM/DG.
Dark angels with Azrael and a Lieutenant destroyed everything, even taking a demon prince down to 1 wound ON OVERWATCH (note: I did charge two units of devestators, and they did blow up and come back due to the ancient and shot hitting on a 3+ rerollable as well). Destroyers from the necrons made short work of demon princes as well (T6 vs T7 was a huge thing here).
Drones are far less survivable than PBC's for one key reason; overcharged plasma. Wounding on a 3+ vs a 4+ is a huge difference, but it also gives your opponent no choice; they must overcharge to hurt the PBC's reliably. Plus the +2 wounds is big.
That said, I'm looking at ways of making a CSM detachment that hits hard, and is mobile; doing the "billions of lascannons" thing is pretty meh. we'll get destroyed by similar lists from the SM side of things, and after seeing destroyers in action, 15 str 6 ap 3 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's.... I now see that we can't play the same "gunline" game as others. And I don't think we need to, because we can combine hard hitting units from several codices (1k sons, CSM) with resilient units (DG, nurgle).
Anyone have any experience running CSM Biker Lords? I'm thinking they may be a great supreme detachment; with a powerfist they can pummel stuff pretty well, attacking whatever they want with abandon. They move 14", giving them a sick 26" threat range. You can arm them with a variety of guns, while they are expensive, throwing a Combi-Plasma or a Melta means you can pew-pew before charging in to clobber something heavy. As well, 6 wounds, T5, and a 4++ isn't too shabby. I'm just not sure what mark you'd use. Plus, because they will be targeting vehicles/individual chars, you can use the boon stratagem to make them progressively deadlier. Top it off with targeting them with Diabolic Strength, Str 10 and 5 attacks doesn't seem so bad!
Honestly, biker lords are middling in my experience. Just make a jetpack lord, and hide him behind other jetpackers or even bikers. The bike isn't worth the points for what you get on a Lord, especailly since it uses the index Lord points, meaning it is just SLIGHTLY overcosted.
Agreed. Bike lords are not worth it in competitive situations, but are fun in different ways.
Also consider a deamon prince without wings vs bike lords, you get so much more for such a small amount off points over the biker Lord.
As for the hard hitting chaos marines force, what are you actually looking for? Hard hitting melee or fire support? Choosen with combi bolters and chainswords are suddenly a decent option, low points, lots of Dakka and lots of regular attacks in melee. Have them getting out of a rhino can be effective.
Example combo that is both semi competitive and fun to do.
Biker Lord, 10 choosen, all w/ chainswords, 5 with combi bolters, with a rhino and a sorcerer from thousand sons (I am a firm believer that tsons are both an amazing singles army and a terrific support army). Have the choosen get in the tsons rhino. Run it up full speed with chaos Lord behind it. Cast glamor of tzeentch on the rhino then pop smoke. Enjoy -2 to hit, a chaos Lord that is sage behind the rhino, and a bunch of choosen about to jump out and unload 30 bolter rounds into an enemy then charge in for another 34 attacks. Yea it's basic attacks but even a basic attacks in mass like that can do damage. And most players won't try and waste shots vs something that is -2 to hit when it's when only thing like that, they will shoot something else allowing the choosen to get there unless you make the choosen really expensive. Never do that, try and keep choosen as cheap as possible, they cost enough as it is.
If your taking the Lord on a bike vs a deamon prince the only real reason is you want the Lord to have a special weapon like the black mace or the murder sword. But for a regular chaos dp the best loadout is slaanesh with elixer and dual talons. Diabloc strength is nasty on him. Using tsons again add a deamon prince with warlord trait eatherstride and wings so you have a t1 assault from him, followed by a t2 assault from the choosen. You really can make a strong, fast, and hard to get a grip upon force for chaos with all their abilities.
I find deathguard and nurgle deamons really shine when they are all alone, mono nurgle. But tzeentch and slaanesh work well together. Khorne doesn't care, it's a hulk smash force.
Azuza001 wrote: Have the choosen get in the tsons rhino. Run it up full speed with chaos Lord behind it. Cast glamor of tzeentch on the rhino then pop smoke.
I don't think you can do that. Rhinos have <LEGION> Keyword and you can't transport units from another legion. I don't have my rulebook at hand so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Azuza001 wrote: Have the choosen get in the tsons rhino. Run it up full speed with chaos Lord behind it. Cast glamor of tzeentch on the rhino then pop smoke.
I don't think you can do that. Rhinos have <LEGION> Keyword and you can't transport units from another legion. I don't have my rulebook at hand so please correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct. Legions can only use their own transports.
Anyone have any experience running CSM Biker Lords? I'm thinking they may be a great supreme detachment; with a powerfist they can pummel stuff pretty well, attacking whatever they want with abandon. They move 14", giving them a sick 26" threat range. You can arm them with a variety of guns, while they are expensive, throwing a Combi-Plasma or a Melta means you can pew-pew before charging in to clobber something heavy. As well, 6 wounds, T5, and a 4++ isn't too shabby. I'm just not sure what mark you'd use. Plus, because they will be targeting vehicles/individual chars, you can use the boon stratagem to make them progressively deadlier. Top it off with targeting them with Diabolic Strength, Str 10 and 5 attacks doesn't seem so bad!
I found myself considering biker lords yesterday for a different purpose. Perhaps summoning? I'm bound to find a way to utilize it dammit! So with a biker lord and on turn one you can turbo boost him up the board, preferably behind LOS blocking terrain so he can't get focused. He's likely going to be alone because there's not much else that can keep up with his 20" advance - unless you have access to warp time, lord knows I don't. On a Dawn of War deployment, 20" would put you a little bit past the center of the board which could be ideal for that sweet, sweet turn 2 summoning. If you're opponent is sitting back then you've got the opportunity for forward summoning which is typically what you want. The closer you can get your Daemons to their gunline, the better. Turn 2 rolls around and you've got however many biker lords you committed to this ready to summon. Start rolling for summons and bust out the stratagem that lets you summon again with the same character and now you've got a potentially decent sized Daemon force on the board - and you didn't even have to drop any CP's. But maybe you opt to also use Denizens of the Warp and put some Daemons in deepstrike. Bring them in as well for a potentially overwhelming Daemonic force, all of which could possibly in range for charges.
Azuza001 wrote: Have the choosen get in the tsons rhino. Run it up full speed with chaos Lord behind it. Cast glamor of tzeentch on the rhino then pop smoke.
I don't think you can do that. Rhinos have <LEGION> Keyword and you can't transport units from another legion. I don't have my rulebook at hand so please correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct. Legions can only use their own transports.
Ah. I missed that.
Ok so keep the strategy and drop the glamor, make it just -1 to hit from smoke. Still is less likely to get shot at.
Azuza001 wrote: Have the choosen get in the tsons rhino. Run it up full speed with chaos Lord behind it. Cast glamor of tzeentch on the rhino then pop smoke.
I don't think you can do that. Rhinos have <LEGION> Keyword and you can't transport units from another legion. I don't have my rulebook at hand so please correct me if I'm wrong.
You are correct. Legions can only use their own transports.
Ah. I missed that.
Ok so keep the strategy and drop the glamor, make it just -1 to hit from smoke. Still is less likely to get shot at.
Well, maybe to get hit.
People have a perception Rhinos are tissue boxes that blow away with the wind. The reality is a little different, but usually it's a good thing when someone is using their heavy weapons on a Rhino instead of something more important.
Anything you can do to make an opponent waste a few plasma shots is a good thing.
How are people feeling about the Defiler after Chapter Approved?
140 Base Cost is pretty cheap, and his wargear options are cheap to. 169 points gets you a Battle Cannon, Reaper Auto Cannon, Defiler Scourge, and a Combi Bolter. That feels pretty reasonably priced for 14 wounds with a 5++ and regeneration. BS/WS 4+ is pretty lame, but prescience, a nearby lord, or just using daemonforge can mitigate that to an extent, hes pretty scary in melee if he can close in as well.
Even as just a big distraction carnifex, he seems like he'd be worth it a lot of the time.
akaean wrote: How are people feeling about the Defiler after Chapter Approved?
140 Base Cost is pretty cheap, and his wargear options are cheap to. 169 points gets you a Battle Cannon, Reaper Auto Cannon, Defiler Scourge, and a Combi Bolter. That feels pretty reasonably priced for 14 wounds with a 5++ and regeneration. BS/WS 4+ is pretty lame, but prescience, a nearby lord, or just using daemonforge can mitigate that to an extent, hes pretty scary in melee if he can close in as well.
Even as just a big distraction carnifex, he seems like he'd be worth it a lot of the time.
I think any Heavy Support option with melee skills is a good thing but will always be situational. Points-wise, he's efficient, but tactics-wise, it's rare that a Defiler sees combat.
140 points for something where the best weapon option is twin lascannons is a little expensive, don't you think?
akaean wrote: How are people feeling about the Defiler after Chapter Approved?
140 Base Cost is pretty cheap, and his wargear options are cheap to. 169 points gets you a Battle Cannon, Reaper Auto Cannon, Defiler Scourge, and a Combi Bolter. That feels pretty reasonably priced for 14 wounds with a 5++ and regeneration. BS/WS 4+ is pretty lame, but prescience, a nearby lord, or just using daemonforge can mitigate that to an extent, hes pretty scary in melee if he can close in as well.
Even as just a big distraction carnifex, he seems like he'd be worth it a lot of the time.
I am trying to build a Dark Mechanicus themed army that takes two and a Chaos Land Raider. I'm struggling with ... damn near everything else. What do I put in the Land Raider other than my Hellwright on Abeyant? What sort of troops should a Dark Mechanicus army have? What other units?
I think any Heavy Support option with melee skills is a good thing but will always be situational. Points-wise, he's efficient, but tactics-wise, it's rare that a Defiler sees combat.
140 points for something where the best weapon option is twin lascannons is a little expensive, don't you think?
I've always thought the Twin Lascannons on the Defiler was a trap. it costs the same 50 points to take as it does on a BS3+ Predator, and if you are just staying back shooting the battle cannon, las cannons, and a havoc launcher it begs the question of why not just take a Forgefiend or the aforementioned Predator? A cheap Reaper Autocannon or spending two more points for a Twin Heavy Bolter gives him some shooting and aren't expensive enough for you to feel bad about moving him into Close Quarters.
I feel like the Giant Crab really needs to get up close and personal to be worth it. Unlike his Ballistic Skill his melee doesn't degrade, he can get a decent number of attacks with the Scourge or you can opt for a lot of auto hits with a twin heavy flamer and a combi flamer. He is also more difficult to ignore if he is trundling towards the enemy, you can also shoot these weapons on the move somewhat effectively if you are willing to buff him by spending command points on Blasphemous Machines or DaemonForge, casting psychic powers like Prescience, and a nearby Chaos Lord or Prince for reroll 1s.
I think any Heavy Support option with melee skills is a good thing but will always be situational. Points-wise, he's efficient, but tactics-wise, it's rare that a Defiler sees combat.
140 points for something where the best weapon option is twin lascannons is a little expensive, don't you think?
I've always thought the Twin Lascannons on the Defiler was a trap. it costs the same 50 points to take as it does on a BS3+ Predator, and if you are just staying back shooting the battle cannon, las cannons, and a havoc launcher it begs the question of why not just take a Forgefiend or the aforementioned Predator? A cheap Reaper Autocannon or spending two more points for a Twin Heavy Bolter gives him some shooting and aren't expensive enough for you to feel bad about moving him into Close Quarters.
I feel like the Giant Crab really needs to get up close and personal to be worth it. Unlike his Ballistic Skill his melee doesn't degrade, he can get a decent number of attacks with the Scourge or you can opt for a lot of auto hits with a twin heavy flamer and a combi flamer. He is also more difficult to ignore if he is trundling towards the enemy, you can also shoot these weapons on the move somewhat effectively if you are willing to buff him by spending command points on Blasphemous Machines or DaemonForge, casting psychic powers like Prescience, and a nearby Chaos Lord or Prince for reroll 1s.
Yep. Begs to be in combat, gets shot up on the way there. Same as ever : )
Don't get me wrong, the Defiler is one of my favorite models in 40k. It's just that it competes with the Predator for space in my lists, and I know it's not going to see combat in most games. That makes it expensive for what it does.
TBH I think the FAQ helps Defliers as there will be fewer deep striking units in the game. Units don't generally like to land near one, maybe it will get more mileage from units being forced to move up the board.
akaean wrote: How are people feeling about the Defiler after Chapter Approved?
140 Base Cost is pretty cheap, and his wargear options are cheap to. 169 points gets you a Battle Cannon, Reaper Auto Cannon, Defiler Scourge, and a Combi Bolter. That feels pretty reasonably priced for 14 wounds with a 5++ and regeneration. BS/WS 4+ is pretty lame, but prescience, a nearby lord, or just using daemonforge can mitigate that to an extent, hes pretty scary in melee if he can close in as well.
Even as just a big distraction carnifex, he seems like he'd be worth it a lot of the time.
I think any Heavy Support option with melee skills is a good thing but will always be situational. Points-wise, he's efficient, but tactics-wise, it's rare that a Defiler sees combat.
140 points for something where the best weapon option is twin lascannons is a little expensive, don't you think?
I don't know, I run one in my tsons tournament lists and it always does well. Prescience and deamonforge stratagem means your hitting and wounding most things on 3's rerolling all failed hits and wounds. I have gone up against 2 laz preds with my defiler and won. I got first turn, hit and wounded with both laz cannon shots and 2 battle cannon hits, ended up doing 12 wounds destroying the first. Laz pred fired back, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 saved to invulnerable, took 4 wounds. Healed one, fired back, dropped 2nd to 3 wounds. Deamonforge and prescience is great, though I prefer tsons to also give heal d3 wounds from a spell and add one to wound rolls with a spell, nothing says your boned quite as nice as wounding land raiders on 2's.
It also gives you close combat back field support. Your not going to want to charge this thing, same game my opponent charged with a full squad ofnenlightened tzangoors (bow ones on disks) just to try and stop it. He did do 6 wounds to it but in return it crushed the tzaangors between his turn and mine, and thanks to healing I got 4 of those wounds back by end of the game.
Defilers are a serious threat if you invest in them, and an incredible distraction if you don't.
I’m very reluctant to invest my singe Prescience per turn on a unit that fires a random number of shots
If you’re going to do that, you’re pretty much committing to setting aside a CP for rerolling 1 or 2 on the number of battlecannon shots, making it 4.17 shots instead of 3.5
Assuming a T5-7 target with a 3+, that’s a yield of 0.7W
I never like to use my reroll for number of shots anyway, mainly do that on important heavy flamer attacks where I’ve at least not got to chance my luck on hit rolls. If I’m shooting at armour, I can’t help but think I’d like to save my reroll for a Lascannon damage than for number of AP-2 D3W shots to send jumping through hoops, even if it’s statistically a better call
Don’t get me wrong, it’s probably *viable*. Especially now a horde of Cultists provides the CP for a Daemon Forge and reroll
I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.
The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.
I prefer the ITC missions and rules to the book missions, but that's a conversation for another thread.
The above is just how I have to think when making armies to play ITC missions. At the end of the day it forces me to make a more diverse and complex army and I can keep the core of what I love about World Eaters. I just have to learn to also love Plasma, which I haven't had a chance to play with this edition.
What do you guys think of the Hellforged Land Raider Proteus compared to the default CSM Land Raider?
You lose Daemonic Machine Spirit, but gain the ability to replace the bolters with more lascannons or heavy flamers, and you also gain the Machina Malefica ability and become not-shabby in close combat. Thoughts?
You also get the Accursed Phylactery ability though that's ... of questionable utility considering the 4 transport slots it costs.
lindsay40k wrote: I’m very reluctant to invest my singe Prescience per turn on a unit that fires a random number of shots
If you’re going to do that, you’re pretty much committing to setting aside a CP for rerolling 1 or 2 on the number of battlecannon shots, making it 4.17 shots instead of 3.5
Assuming a T5-7 target with a 3+, that’s a yield of 0.7W
I never like to use my reroll for number of shots anyway, mainly do that on important heavy flamer attacks where I’ve at least not got to chance my luck on hit rolls. If I’m shooting at armour, I can’t help but think I’d like to save my reroll for a Lascannon damage than for number of AP-2 D3W shots to send jumping through hoops, even if it’s statistically a better call
Don’t get me wrong, it’s probably *viable*. Especially now a horde of Cultists provides the CP for a Daemon Forge and reroll
Again that's why I said if you want to invest in it it's awesome. If you cast flickering flames on it as well your wounding t8 on 3's with the battlecannon, 2's with the laz cannons. It's the idea of how effective it can be that can change your opponents plans. But it is what it is.
andysonic1 wrote: I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.
The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.
Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models
andysonic1 wrote: I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.
The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.
Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models
andysonic1 wrote: I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.
The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.
Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models
That...
...
Really?
Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...
andysonic1 wrote: I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.
The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.
Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models
That...
...
Really?
Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...
That's actually pretty great! Too bad Renegade Militia Squads are terrible or this would be a great way to get CP while denying your opponent points.
andysonic1 wrote: I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.
The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.
Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models
That...
...
Really?
Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...
That's actually pretty great! Too bad Renegade Militia Squads are terrible or this would be a great way to get CP while denying your opponent points.
Yeah.
About that Hellforged Land Raider Proteus I mentioned earlier....
andysonic1 wrote: On the Hellforged Land Raider Proteus: why not just get a Spartan?
Price, I think. The Spartan is a Lord of War and 500 something points... ... ... ... *does math* like 488 or so, total, after havoc launcher. It also eats my models when I disembark. Being a Lord of War makes it difficult to squeeze into the 3 detachment limit.
The triple-twin-lascannon with havoc launcher is a full 406, more than two cultist squads cheaper. It's only Heavy Support, for better or worse. I don't know; what do you think? Is the Spartan worth it?
If I had to choose I would go with the Spartan since I run a lot of Berzerkers and they need a ride. If you just want a heavy weapons platform you might be better off with Havocs or a Rapier Laser Destroyer or Oblits.
If I had to choose I would go with the Spartan since I run a lot of Berzerkers and they need a ride. If you just want a heavy weapons platform you might be better off with Havocs or a Rapier Laser Destroyer or Oblits.
What I am looking for is a "command tank" style thingy for a Dark Mechanicus army. The Spartan could work, but I don't know what other people's analysis of it vs. the Proteus would be.
andysonic1 wrote: I'm hesitant to take multiple units of 10 Cultists due to the ITC secondary. My alternative is to take one 40 man blob in one battalion and one 30 man Bloodletter blob in a patrol and no other units over 10 models. When the Cultists get small I'll Tide them, denying the secondary for longer, and the Bloodletter blob has Warp Surge and an Icon to keep them alive longer.
The only issue is the need for CP. A second Batt of Renegades for 170 points is looking more and more desirable but completely eliminates the above plan to deny the secondary due to the additional troops.
Giving the renegades a heavy weapon team drops the units down to 9 models
That...
...
Really?
Yes? It's been a problem for real Imperial Guard for a while. You have 9 models in the squad (which should cost therefore 36 points + weapon), but are charged for 10 because reasons, but you score like 9 models on an objective and lose one lasgun...
You're paying for 10 because the HWT has 2 attacks, 2 wounds and a lasgun as well as the heavy weapon. It's still two guardsmen, they're just on the one base
Price, I think. The Spartan is a Lord of War and 500 something points... ... ... ... *does math* like 488 or so, total, after havoc launcher. It also eats my models when I disembark. Being a Lord of War makes it difficult to squeeze into the 3 detachment limit.
The triple-twin-lascannon with havoc launcher is a full 406, more than two cultist squads cheaper. It's only Heavy Support, for better or worse. I don't know; what do you think? Is the Spartan worth it?
Ive been battlescribing some lists with it, as an alternative to a predator and a rhino in a Night Lords army, but that's mainly because of the Accursed Phylactery being a Ld rebuff and with a relatively wide reach as well. Which could be a lot of fun when combined with -3ld from NL, -1 from raptors, -1 from IoD and -2ld from butcher cannons for a potential -8ld total; just have to kill one or 2 and watch even ld9 melt. But I don't think these lists are 'competitive' and I haven't trialed them yet.
I'm also not certain the Butchers Cannon debuff stacks with the others though...
Price, I think. The Spartan is a Lord of War and 500 something points... ... ... ... *does math* like 488 or so, total, after havoc launcher. It also eats my models when I disembark. Being a Lord of War makes it difficult to squeeze into the 3 detachment limit.
The triple-twin-lascannon with havoc launcher is a full 406, more than two cultist squads cheaper. It's only Heavy Support, for better or worse. I don't know; what do you think? Is the Spartan worth it?
Ive been battlescribing some lists with it, as an alternative to a predator and a rhino in a Night Lords army, but that's mainly because of the Accursed Phylactery being a Ld rebuff and with a relatively wide reach as well. Which could be a lot of fun when combined with -3ld from NL, -1 from raptors, -1 from IoD and -2ld from butcher cannons for a potential -8ld total; just have to kill one or 2 and watch even ld9 melt. But I don't think these lists are 'competitive' and I haven't trialed them yet.
I'm also not certain the Butchers Cannon debuff stacks with the others though...
Hey all, my Google skills are failing me.
Could any tell me if forward operatists count towards deployed /not deployed for the purposes of 50% deployed?
Many thanks!
I believe they count as on the table since they are there before the 1st turn. They are not deep striking in. This is just my opinion, I don't have the book infront of me to read how it is worded.
I'm looking to run a leviathan dread and a chaos assault gunship full of noise marines (maybe a unit of zerkers). Questions questions questions.
Dread is a helbrute so gets legion strat - so alpha legion seems a no brainer(? - thinking going butcher cannon and bombard)
The chaos gunship doesn't quite care the same way - and I'm happy to drop it in a seperate detachment
Here's where I'm stuck - if I drop in a ton of units into the gunship lets assume I go second - should I be making it nurgle for miasma, tzeentch for weaver, or Slannesh for Delightful agonies? The question would then also apply to the dread who would probably benefit from one of these as well.
So far I've landed somewhere like - 8T on the dread means he will eat predominately lascannon shots - so maybe delightful agonies(?) - makes the 8T a third tankier and for the damage mitigation if I put a friendly warpsmith nearby it can be healed d3 per turn.
Chaos gunship go for the nurgle keyword and drop miasma on it to bring it to -1 / -2 (due to fly) to hit. Some people are rocking anti-air but if I pop it waaaay in the back and have it at -2 even dark reaps may be stretched to hit it. (due to range not the -2).. Or should I be sensitive to the fact it doesn't have an invul?
Ideally I'm running the noise marines I guess as alpha... but really want to take them as a troop choice (if going ITC maybe look at 3 x 9 units???). Also contemplating taking the mammoth size squad of 20 and using prec/VOTLW to go YOLO. If I am running them in the gunship - perhaps alpha legion isn't as important (does nothing under 12 inches)... not sure - thoughts?
Ive been battlescribing some lists with it, as an alternative to a predator and a rhino in a Night Lords army, but that's mainly because of the Accursed Phylactery being a Ld rebuff and with a relatively wide reach as well. Which could be a lot of fun when combined with -3ld from NL, -1 from raptors, -1 from IoD and -2ld from butcher cannons for a potential -8ld total; just have to kill one or 2 and watch even ld9 melt. But I don't think these lists are 'competitive' and I haven't trialed them yet.
I'm also not certain the Butchers Cannon debuff stacks with the others though...
So spartan is better? For non NL I mean
Yeah I think it might be, except the for eating 1/6 of the models in it, and being a LoW, as you said. More wounds and firepower and transport capacity for not much more points.
Having 1/6 of the beserkers/NMs inside would hurt a bit; could be fun with NMs though if they get to shoot as they die.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Models with Machina Malefica can’t regain wounds by any means other than inflicting wounds in close combat.
This looks like it can't get healed by anything except this ability, but I thought I read somewhere it was turn based. I'm probably confusing this rule with another model's similar rule.
Looking for suggestions on my 2k alpha legion list, against some real competitive guys so want to at least put up a fight.
Planning on fielding: batallion:
Lord W jumppack
Sorcerer w jumppack
40 cultists
2x12 cultists
10 noise marines
Patrol:
Bloodmaster
30 bloodletters
Heavy detachment (can't remember name):
Lord w jumppack
2x3 oblits
Havocs w heavy bolters
Havocs w lascannons (and some extra bodies)
Have about 230pts left for something really nasty that I can deploy at start of the game, could anyone help with suggestions?
Thanks!
Ive been battlescribing some lists with it, as an alternative to a predator and a rhino in a Night Lords army, but that's mainly because of the Accursed Phylactery being a Ld rebuff and with a relatively wide reach as well. Which could be a lot of fun when combined with -3ld from NL, -1 from raptors, -1 from IoD and -2ld from butcher cannons for a potential -8ld total; just have to kill one or 2 and watch even ld9 melt. But I don't think these lists are 'competitive' and I haven't trialed them yet.
I'm also not certain the Butchers Cannon debuff stacks with the others though...
So spartan is better? For non NL I mean
Yeah I think it might be, except the for eating 1/6 of the models in it, and being a LoW, as you said. More wounds and firepower and transport capacity for not much more points.
Having 1/6 of the beserkers/NMs inside would hurt a bit; could be fun with NMs though if they get to shoot as they die.
This is not how the rule works:
In the Belly of the Beast: At the end of any Movement phase in which one or more units disembarks from a Hellforged Spartan, roll a D6. On the roll of a ‘1’, one model from a disembarking unit, chosen by the controlling player, is slain. The number of models removed due to the effects of this rule are counted as slain models for the Spartan’s Machina Malifica ability at the end of the turn.
Roll one dice. If it’s a 1, one model, of your choice, amongst the 25 models in the four separate units that disembarked this turn, gets eaten.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you’re carrying 20 zerks, a DA and an EC, and a nearby cultist screen gets shot down to one man, just run that survivor inside. They can be the one that gets sacrificed when you come to disembark if you’re worried about losing a Berzerker
Hey my dudes, you guys have been a big help with finalising my first chaos list. I've been slowly building it up. (I told myself id finish painting what I've got before buyimg any more models. Yeah right!). Anyway, an idea has been itching the back of my brain and I thought I'd ask how you would minimise the obvious flaws / maximise its effectiveness.
I like the idea of brining a single squad of each of the main 4 cult marines. I'm sick of building and painting dozens and dozens of cultists. The hobby and gaming variety Id get from bringing one of each seems to scratch that itch.
So if you were building a list with the criteria of having one of each of the 4 cults, how would you make it work? Ive read enough of dakka to have a good idea on roughly how i should equip them. But how would you build a list around this to minimise the drawbacks of lack of synergy etc? Any advice on, tactically, how i could maximise thier potential?
I haven't run the numbers yet, but this is roughly what i'm thinking. It' pretty basic.
Black legion battalion
Abby
Sorc
3x cultists
2x obliterators
The Abby + cultist CP farm will provide enough points to infiltrate what i need to, situation depending. There'd be a good mix of special and heavy weapons. Decent CC from Abby, DP and bezerkers. No high T armour so lascannons are wasted. I know a single infiltrated bezerker squad will probably get squished asap. I could bring a rhino, but having a single vehicle doesn't seem like a good move.
Anyway, I'm rambling again. Any ideas would be welcome. Cheers.
In the Belly of the Beast: At the end of any Movement phase in which one or more units disembarks from a Hellforged Spartan, roll a D6. On the roll of a ‘1’, one model from a disembarking unit, chosen by the controlling player, is slain. The number of models removed due to the effects of this rule are counted as slain models for the Spartan’s Machina Malifica ability at the end of the turn.
Roll one dice. If it’s a 1, one model, of your choice, amongst the 25 models in the four separate units that disembarked this turn, gets eaten.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you’re carrying 20 zerks, a DA and an EC, and a nearby cultist screen gets shot down to one man, just run that survivor inside. They can be the one that gets sacrificed when you come to disembark if you’re worried about losing a Berzerker
Thanks, I'm glad someone is actually reading the rules. I skimmed it and assumed it was the same as the rules for destroyed transports... :/
I'll be a bit more careful before throwing my opinions around in the future.
What's the best weapon load out for a Chaos Storm Eagle?
Interested as well. I'm building mine with lascannon (glued) and probably autocannon (if I don't magnetize). I see people with multi melta but that's so dang expensive.
What's the best weapon load out for a Chaos Storm Eagle?
Interested as well. I'm building mine with lascannon (glued) and probably autocannon (if I don't magnetize). I see people with multi melta but that's so dang expensive.
Are we talking competitive? It isn't really used. In terms of "best" loadout - Its already a juicy target at almost 300 points so I feel putting lascannons makes it more of an all in one basket choice. Prefer to run it light (it still has a lot of dakka) and if opponent shoots at it at least still shooting into a -1 to hit unit. A serious army of dark reaps will sink it in one turn guaranteed practically with guide. Ultimately it depends what kind of environment you are using it in and who your opponent is but I would say cheap and dirty is the best bet considering there is no invul save built in.
What's the best weapon load out for a Chaos Storm Eagle?
Interested as well. I'm building mine with lascannon (glued) and probably autocannon (if I don't magnetize). I see people with multi melta but that's so dang expensive.
Are we talking competitive? It isn't really used. In terms of "best" loadout - Its already a juicy target at almost 300 points so I feel putting lascannons makes it more of an all in one basket choice. Prefer to run it light (it still has a lot of dakka) and if opponent shoots at it at least still shooting into a -1 to hit unit. A serious army of dark reaps will sink it in one turn guaranteed practically with guide. Ultimately it depends what kind of environment you are using it in and who your opponent is but I would say cheap and dirty is the best bet considering there is no invul save built in.
That's a good tip, but I've already glued in my lascannons as my army inventory was severely lacking any (and i try to play wysiwyg when I can)
On the heavy bolter or autocannon or melta or missiles?
For what you want, Renegades would probably be best overall.
Here is what you are looking at. Black Legion will let you fire your Combi Bolters after advancing, which if you advance into flamer range is a LOT of extra shots. Remember, models can fire all of their non pistol weapons.
So at 12 inches a Black Legion squad will be giving you 12 bolter shots hitting on a 4+ from the bikes, 2 bolter shots hitting on a 5+ from the combi bolter on the champ, and 3d6 flamer shots. As compared to an advancing Renegade Bike Squad which is limited to the 3d6 flamers on the turn you advanced. The question is how much you value those extra 14 bolter shots over being able to charge.
the big benefit of Renegades is it lets you advance and charge which makes the bikers more reliable for tying up shooting squads to prevent them from firing. This tactical edge is great when it comes up, or you need just a couple extra inches to make a tight charge. It also gives you an incredible threat range when paired with warptime since you can advance both times, and Bikers are guaranteed the 6 inch advance.
Finally, bikers are fast as it is, and often won't even need to advance to get into range. In these cases the Renegade and Black Legion traits are both wasted.
So which legion trait works best for Raptors? I haven't painted mine yet, so I'm leaning towards Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or Night Lords. I use one unit with plasma, one unit melta, one unit plasma pistols. Iron Warriors trait does come in handy since I play against gun line Marines fairly often, AL is always good for durability and Forward Operative melta guns, and Night Lords are just my favorite Legion.
Nurgle Night Lord Raptors with an Icon of Despair are amazing, until you get brickwalled by something like Tyranids or Orks that ignore all your morale shenanigans. They definitely need a punchy weapon on the champion because those regular attacks aren’t doing much. Nurgle Night Lords with a Jump Pack Sorcerer also gets you potential -2 to hit units, which ups their survivability a bit.
Ld debuffs are definitely gimmicks. A hybrid list that has Ld attacks like that Slaanesh spell has potential, but most of the time when your elaborate setup even has a valid target, at best it'll just make your opponent burn 2CP. Treat the debuffs as a nice bonus that adds pressure to your opponent, but don't build an army around it.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So which legion trait works best for Raptors? I haven't painted mine yet, so I'm leaning towards Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, or Night Lords. I use one unit with plasma, one unit melta, one unit plasma pistols. Iron Warriors trait does come in handy since I play against gun line Marines fairly often, AL is always good for durability and Forward Operative melta guns, and Night Lords are just my favorite Legion.
i'd go world eaters for the +1 attack or renegades for the advance and assault
I think Raptors are best as a shooting unit. 5 guys, 2 specials and a matching combi weapon on the champ (or 2 plasma pistols if you want to get cute). Keeps the squad cheap, they can arrive from Deep Strike and rapid fire some plasma into whatever you like. Since the special weapons replace your chain sword, and you don't have enough attacks even with Chainswords building these guys for cc is a waste.
As others have said, Nightlords with Mark of Nurgle is great as they can potentially provide a -3 leadership buff.
Iron Warriors is solid for ignore cover. If you drop in and light up some marines in cover- they will only get a 6+ save. Half as good as a 5+ they'd get from cover normally.
While not flashy Word Bearers allows you to re roll moral which can be the difference between losing a plasma gun to a bad roll. Even with only 1 or two models left alive you can still threaten things in rapid fire range.
All in all Raptors are a fantastic deep strike special weapon delivery platform, but they sadly don't really have the stats to play an effective melee role compared to other units in the codex. So keep em cheap, load up on special weapons. And deep strike em where it will hurt.
Anyone ever tried two lord of wars superheavies list before? Like say a double Lord of skulls list? Its putting a lot of eggs into one basket, but it sounds kinda fun.
I mean, cultists are cheap, so its not like we can't run lots of cultists for bodies if we really want to even if we have two Lord of Skulls!
Anyway, using the models I do have because I don't have two Lord of skulls. Here's a list with two super heavies.
So, basically, w squads of zerkers in one Rhino. the other two has a squad of 7 and 1 HQ.
Everything drives up the field in 3 Rhinos and 2 LOW. Round 2, the zerkers will unload and go to town. There is actually some shooting too, because there are quite a lot of combi bolters in there on the Rhinos and in the hands of the champions and the HQs.
If I want to play sort of more tactical, I can unload two squads first to clear chaff along with all the combi bolter shooting. And the the characters and the other two squads will unload in the round after when hopefully the chaff has been cleared.
Bear in mind they also have two massive super heavies bearing down on them, and those two super heavies will be shooting and charging into combat too. So, this isn't going to be charge into fodder and then get shot up. It looks kinda thematic. What do you think?
Davidian wrote: yeah, I _have_ to take a commander at least in that case :( no renegade tank commanders for us
The renegade commander is less than the cost of two Chaos Marines though, and while he doesn’t buff anything at all, you can park him on an objective and he’ll probably just be ignored.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone ever tried two lord of wars superheavies list before? Like say a double Lord of skulls list? Its putting a lot of eggs into one basket, but it sounds kinda fun.
I mean, cultists are cheap, so its not like we can't run lots of cultists for bodies if we really want to even if we have two Lord of Skulls!
Anyway, using the models I do have because I don't have two Lord of skulls. Here's a list with two super heavies.
So, basically, w squads of zerkers in one Rhino. the other two has a squad of 7 and 1 HQ.
Everything drives up the field in 3 Rhinos and 2 LOW. Round 2, the zerkers will unload and go to town. There is actually some shooting too, because there are quite a lot of combi bolters in there on the Rhinos and in the hands of the champions and the HQs.
If I want to play sort of more tactical, I can unload two squads first to clear chaff along with all the combi bolter shooting. And the the characters and the other two squads will unload in the round after when hopefully the chaff has been cleared.
Bear in mind they also have two massive super heavies bearing down on them, and those two super heavies will be shooting and charging into combat too. So, this isn't going to be charge into fodder and then get shot up. It looks kinda thematic. What do you think?
With the new faciton keywords is it still legal to run a renegade knight like this with berzerkers?
Should be fine, what's the issue? >_< I got one batallion detachment and two super heavy auxiliary detachments. So, its three detachments total. Surely there is nothing wrong with a renegade knight fighting alongside a CSM army? They won't be able to cross use any strategems across detachments, but it should be fine using strategems within the faction of that detachment right? (Not that the renegade knight has any faction strategems it can use).
Opps, maybe I didn't label it very well, but renegade knight will belong to renegade knight faction and not world eaters.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Should be fine, what's the issue? >_< I got one batallion detachment and two super heavy auxiliary detachments. So, its three detachments total. Surely there is nothing wrong with a renegade knight fighting alongside a CSM army? They won't be able to cross use any strategems across detachments, but it should be fine using strategems within the faction of that detachment right? (Not that the renegade knight has any faction strategems it can use).
Opps, maybe I didn't label it very well, but renegade knight will belong to renegade knight faction and not world eaters.
Maybe I am only looking at battlescribe but since chaos doesn't link armies anymore it is going to be either heretic astartes or faction keyword, which renegade knight lacks both?
