buddha wrote: Has anyone had good success with chaos monster mash? Morty, Magnus, and a knight is only around 1300pts which leaves enough room for a demon battalion. Seems very self sufficient and powerful on paper.
I ran a monster mash with 2 Lord of Skulls and Magnus (pre-TS codex) supported by a CSM Alpha Legion Battalion. It did pretty well (and finished with time to spare), where it really failed though was when the terrain was against me since my heavy hitters couldn't get into the bottom floor (ITC doesn't allow shooting into or out of the first level) of buildings I had to rely on my Chaos Lord, Sorcerer and some scrub Cultists to dig units out of them, which was fine most of the time, but not so much against entrenched marines.
Magnus and the Sorcerer would buff the Lords and they would go to work, typically hit one with Prescience and have the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer stay close to him, Warptime on the other one and let it use Daemonforge and get the first turn charge (potentially using Daemonforge again in Fight phase). This had the added bonus of nobody really shot at Magnus much (go figure).
Diabolic Strength on the Lord of Skulls is also amazing, since the Strength works for the Gorestorm Cannon and melee attacks and the extra attack can be turned into 3 sweep attacks. I've been futzing with ways to get a Daemons detachment to support the Lord of Skulls so I can pop the Khorne strategy to let him attack again in the fight phase.
Also, Lord of Skulls does amazing work against hordes and his degradation track is a thing of beauty.
buddha wrote: Has anyone had good success with chaos monster mash? Morty, Magnus, and a knight is only around 1300pts which leaves enough room for a demon battalion. Seems very self sufficient and powerful on paper.
i tried it but b4 new demon dex was released and didn't do so good, too few pieces almost no screens, no easy at objectives when you face tons of obj sec troops, but it's fun to play. Maybe i would need retry with lord of skull instead a renegade knight. but i dont own it
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I've been futzing with ways to get a Daemons detachment to support the Lord of Skulls so I can pop the Khorne strategy to let him attack again in the fight phase.
Daemons FAQ made it so you can't use their stratagems on units without the <Daemon> faction keyword. The CSMFAQ was updated at the same time removing <Daemon> as a faction keyword for the LOS and Obliterators, and moving it to be a normal keyword, so there is no way the LOS will be able to use that stratagem to fight twice.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I've been futzing with ways to get a Daemons detachment to support the Lord of Skulls so I can pop the Khorne strategy to let him attack again in the fight phase.
Daemons FAQ made it so you can't use their stratagems on units without the <Daemon> faction keyword. The CSMFAQ was updated at the same time removing <Daemon> as a faction keyword for the LOS and Obliterators, and moving it to be a normal keyword, so there is no way the LOS will be able to use that stratagem to fight twice.
Oh yeah, thanks, I keep forgetting that. Anyhow, it was a fun (if limited) monster mash list that did pretty well.
So, Bloat-Drones. I guess with Heralds and Epidemius offering S boosts, and a mediocre WS and BS, the best option is the auto-hitting sprayers? The flesh-mower looks incredible, but I can’t help but think that the long ranged attack is more useful for finishing off damaged units and feeding Epi. Lots of attacks is fine, but a DP can do that, without a deteriorating strength to boot...
What do you think about ideal contemptor dread loadouts?
As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.
Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.
In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.
lindsay40k wrote: So, Bloat-Drones. I guess with Heralds and Epidemius offering S boosts, and a mediocre WS and BS, the best option is the auto-hitting sprayers? The flesh-mower looks incredible, but I can’t help but think that the long ranged attack is more useful for finishing off damaged units and feeding Epi. Lots of attacks is fine, but a DP can do that, without a deteriorating strength to boot...
Heralds and Epidemius should work with Nurgle Mutilators/Warp Talons/Possessed, although you can't get the extra bonus of the DG psychic powers on them unfortunately. The problem I really saw with Epidemius was that outside of the first step on his chart, everything else was geared towards melee units. Plague Marine melee is (in my opinion) prohibitively expensive and obviously not Daemonic and DG for some reason didn't give them an easily deployed Daemonic melee-oriented unit really. Seems to me that to really optimize Heralds/Epidemius you want 3 Detachments, Daemons, DG, Nurgle-marked CSM sporting some of the Daemonic melee troops.
As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.
Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.
In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.
Butcher cannon is the obvious best choice IMO. And if you want a melee dreadnaught, just go for a double-fist Helbrute. Less points for equal smash.
As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.
Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.
In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.
What Legion are you using them for? For my Death Guard, I really like 2x Butcher Cannons and Havoc Launcher, since they can move without taking a -1 to hit with their heavy weapons.
I also like 2x chainclaws with soulburners, which in addition to putting out a decent number of mortal wounds, allow the dreads to shoot while advancing into CC. If I'm trying to save points, dual combi bolters are decent anti-infantry and 28 points less each.
Whatever you do, if you're taking two CCWs, take chainclaws not dreadclaws. Adding a second chain claw costs only +10 points over a single one, but a second dreadclaw costs the full amount, due to what I assume was an oversight in Chapter Approved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: And if you want a melee dreadnaught, just go for a double-fist Helbrute. Less points for equal smash.
Helbrutes have a worse WS (to start) and are a lot less durable. Contemptors have 2 more wounds, a 5++ invulnerable save which improves to 4++ in melee, and have a 5+ chance of healing a wound for every model they kill in melee.
That said, a Helbrute with a fist and power scourge can put out an unholy number of attacks!
As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.
Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.
In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.
My dual Chain Claw and Soulburner Contemptor is often a contender for MVP in my matches.
As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.
Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.
In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.
My dual Chain Claw and Soulburner Contemptor is often a contender for MVP in my matches.
Do you drop him in a dreadclaw or run him up the board?
I play World Eaters, BTW. My thoughts were that 1 more attack in CC might not be worth losing out on shooting every turn. The soulburners, as mentioned above, at least allow a pretty damn high chance of inflicting some wounds from shooting but the range is so short that he could get blown up before he makes it across half the table. I know that can happen no matter what, but it's pretty lame when a big monster doesn't even get the chance to swing. Hence the dreadclaw option, I guess.
I LIKE the sound of dual chainfist most of all, though.
Even using a dreadclaw you are more likely to fail than make your turn 1 charge.
I think there is a place for the cc Contemptor footslogging because it has a good movement and is pretty tough. If you are running a speedy cc army then even if it dies you'll be getting other stuff into your opponent's lines in its place. Once you get it stuck in then it's going to be tough for your opponent to get rid of.
Decimators are still probably better though just because they are a fair amount cheaper while only a little less effective.
Contemptors are a ruddy terrifying fire magnet. One Chainclaw with Soulburner is a shoe-in. Butcher Cannon is a utility weapon, it can finish off a crippled vehicle or force an important unit to spend 2CP on Morale. Nice synergy with Ld attack stuff - not worth building a list around, but worth bearing in mind if you‘re taking some Raptorcide or similar. Alternatively, take the second CC - you’re not just getting the extra attack, you’re also throwing more Mortal Wounds at Land Raiders or THSS squads.
I typically run berzerkers in either Rhinos, or, as of late, dreadclaws. Now that we have daemons at our disposal I'm also warping Bloodletters into their face.
So I suppose the Contemptor could afford to hoof it.
Just throwing this in for discussion. Meta now has a lot of hordes in it. Could vehicles be an answer to tying down all these hordes and preventing them from establishing too much board control?
I was thinking, whether its a Rhino, or a Defiler (which can be under 200 points). If we charge a vehicle into a horde of anything. Then they would not be able to deploy to cover more of the board. Instead they would need to consolidate towards that vehicle.
Furthermore, by itself, it would take a long time (if ever) for a horde of troops to destroy a vehicle (even one like a Rhino). Most horde are Str 3, against T7, they would need 6s to wound.
Now, they can choose to fall back, but then they won't be able to shoot, and then your vehicle can just charge them again next turn. Just throwing this in for discussion.
Rhino pits are quite useful, I use them whenever I run my khorne army.
It's a straight forward force. 20x beserkers with axes, 3x 10 men beserker squads in rhinos. Whatever the beserkers don't attack the rhinos tie up until the beserkers can get around to it. Works well enough.
Do you drop him in a dreadclaw or run him up the board?
I play World Eaters, BTW. My thoughts were that 1 more attack in CC might not be worth losing out on shooting every turn. The soulburners, as mentioned above, at least allow a pretty damn high chance of inflicting some wounds from shooting but the range is so short that he could get blown up before he makes it across half the table. I know that can happen no matter what, but it's pretty lame when a big monster doesn't even get the chance to swing. Hence the dreadclaw option, I guess.
I LIKE the sound of dual chainfist most of all, though.
He hoofs it up the board. He's been satisfactory getting onto assault weapon range of most things i want to soften up for termies or a Warptimed DP or my Murder Sword Lord with Jump pack, or an encroaching vehicle. He doesn't usually get into melee range on turn 1,but always on turn 2. I don't mind if he's getting shot all up because he's one of my most durable units.
I play Word Bearers and Khorne Daemons and don't have any real armor to support my rhinos. I also like to keep him near a DP or M'lord for those sweet sweet rerolls of 1s. If he's neat my cultists, those chainfists are also getting their apostle's reroll misses or if he's near my zerkers he's getting their Exalted Champion's rerolled wounds or Sorcerer's delight de jure. He's a very gracious gift getter.
I also don't have a drop claw, and if I did I'd probably use that for something that can reroll charges.
Quick rules clarification. I know that Death to the False Emperor is only in the Fight phase. Prescience gives +1 to hit until the next psychic phase. Icon of Excess makes DttFE proc on a 5+. So a unit with Prescience and an Icon of Excess procs DttFE on a roll of 4+. Am I correct on this?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just throwing this in for discussion. Meta now has a lot of hordes in it. Could vehicles be an answer to tying down all these hordes and preventing them from establishing too much board control?
I was thinking, whether its a Rhino, or a Defiler (which can be under 200 points). If we charge a vehicle into a horde of anything. Then they would not be able to deploy to cover more of the board. Instead they would need to consolidate towards that vehicle.
Furthermore, by itself, it would take a long time (if ever) for a horde of troops to destroy a vehicle (even one like a Rhino). Most horde are Str 3, against T7, they would need 6s to wound.
Now, they can choose to fall back, but then they won't be able to shoot, and then your vehicle can just charge them again next turn. Just throwing this in for discussion.
Well some points here:
- They don't have to consolidate towards that vehicle, they don't have to consolidate anywhere they can just stand there in a conga line as your rhino tries to kill one of them. What you have done though is make them immune to getting shot at unless you fallback your self (which they can prob stop you doing) - The consolidate towards the closest model, that might not actually be your rhino. A clever player will probably have already spread them out to d tricksy pile in moves towards other stuff
- They will just fall back (if its not actually now advantageous to be in CC with you now!) you might be able to charge them again if something else does not obv kill you with the pts involved that rhino would of prob be better invested taking objs a blob cant get to.
Its a def decent tactic to soak up their overwatch before hitting them with something else. Prob one for a general tactics thread... because Chaos are one of the best horde armies out there we dont want any of our anti tactics here XD
the_Jakman wrote: Quick rules clarification. I know that Death to the False Emperor is only in the Fight phase. Prescience gives +1 to hit until the next psychic phase. Icon of Excess makes DttFE proc on a 5+. So a unit with Prescience and an Icon of Excess procs DttFE on a roll of 4+. Am I correct on this?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Could vehicles be an answer to tying down all these hordes and preventing them from establishing too much board control?
Most Hordes can deal with VEHICLES in Close combat unfortunately (Orks, Letters, Tzaangors, etc...)
I had a game a couple weeks ago against Bloodletter bombs. They just walked through my Defiler and Maulerfiend in 2 Fight phases, then proceeded mobbing up the rest of my army. ://
in any case hordes are always supported by characters or at weapons, think about 30 letters and a Korne Dp with skullreaver, they can remove any veichle.
Almost done reading though this whole thread. It seems that almost everyone is running cultists mostly as MSU with autoguns. Sometimes a large blob with autoguns and the occasional squad equipped with pistol/ccw. But only like 1 or 2 guys have bothered to upgrade to special weapons.
Don't you think MSU squads camping backfield objectives would benefit from a heavy stubber? At 4 points it allows them to actually roll some dice while camping, if it kills a single guardsman, it's made its points pack. Seems like ok investment to me.
I'm going to be infiltrating a large blob of pistol/ccw guys and using tide of traitors. A couple of flamers will mean I'm down 3-4 wounds in the squad, but the extra punch could be worth it. Especially if they're getting all up in loyalists faces, then recycling the squad. I'm not sure though.
The two main reasons people mostly run them without the special weapons is because 1) it requires extra thinking/time for little benefit and 2) GW no longer sells cultists with those weapons. The flamer and heavy stubber models came in the Dark Vengeance starter set from 7th edition and are no longer available. It is possible to convert them yourself but again it's not really worth your time (from a strictly gameplay perspective).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Changing topic, what types of DP are we all running? I've been using a double talons Khorne one with the Talisman of Burning Blood and I've been quite happy with it. He gets traded very easily but he'll kill stuff when he gets into combat.
the_Jakman wrote: Almost done reading though this whole thread. It seems that almost everyone is running cultists mostly as MSU with autoguns. Sometimes a large blob with autoguns and the occasional squad equipped with pistol/ccw. But only like 1 or 2 guys have bothered to upgrade to special weapons.
Don't you think MSU squads camping backfield objectives would benefit from a heavy stubber? At 4 points it allows them to actually roll some dice while camping, if it kills a single guardsman, it's made its points pack. Seems like ok investment to me.
I'm going to be infiltrating a large blob of pistol/ccw guys and using tide of traitors. A couple of flamers will mean I'm down 3-4 wounds in the squad, but the extra punch could be worth it. Especially if they're getting all up in loyalists faces, then recycling the squad. I'm not sure though.
How do you use your cultists?
I agree with you about stubbers for msu cultists and that is essentially what I run, they arent a major threat but the extra dakka can definitely pay dividends, which is great for a unit that is so cheap and expendable. I have to say though that flamers have seemed more valuable, especially for overwatch in a large blob which in the games i have played always manage to get charged by something or multiple things.
If you are running ccw cultists and can spare the points a few flamers could easily get some wounds before you charge. If you are going to ToT them anyway sacrificing survivability for more damage seems like a good option to me.
It is becoming very common to run cultists in units of 40 with las/autoguns mark of slaanesh and alpha legion.
The idea is you set them up 9-12" from the enemy for 1cp and deep strike or have a sorcerer near by who:
casts deslightful agonies on them - now they have a 5+ fnp and are -1 to hit if over 12"
then casts prescience on them for a +1 to hit (so they now hit on 3's)
when you shoot you apply the 1cp vets of the long war strat on them (they are now +1 to wound)
you now fire 80 s3 shots hitting on a 3+ with a +1 to wound (so basically bolt guns against t4)
you then maybe spend 2cp to fire all 80 shots again at the end of the phase (they are still benefiting from both 3+ to ht and +1 to wound)
That's 160 shots which will statistically kill a predator in one turn or 17 space marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Changing topic, what types of DP are we all running? I've been using a double talons Khorne one with the Talisman of Burning Blood and I've been quite happy with it. He gets traded very easily but he'll kill stuff when he gets into combat.
I run a slaanesh DP with dual talons, wings, warp bolter, delightful agonies (self buffing or on my screening units) and intoxicating elixir. I usually make him my warlord too and give him the mortal wounds on a 6 trait.
I usually run bikes as a screen for my DP and buff them with delightful agonies for the extra survivability and then self cast it before he makes it into combat. Im still testing delightful agonies but so far i have really loved it, 5+ feel no pain is great this edition with all the mortal wounds and high damage weapons. It allows my screens to draw and survive more fire and then makes the DP far more difficult to kill when he makes it into combat, especially against a character.
I have also run with warptime and diabolic strength and these options have also served me well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Latro_ wrote: It is becoming very common to run cultists in units of 40 with las/autoguns mark of slaanesh and alpha legion.
The idea is you set them up 12" from the enemy and deep strike or have a sorcerer near by who:
casts deslightful agonies on them - now they have a 5+ fnp and are -1 to hit if over 12"
then casts prescience on them for a +1 to hit (so they now hit on 3's)
when you shoot you apply the 1cp vets of the long war strat on them (they are now +1 to wound)
you now fire 80 s3 shots hitting on a 3+ with a +1 to wound (so basically bolt guns against t4)
you then spend 2cp to fire all 80 shots again at the end of the phase (they are still benefiting from both 3+ to ht and +1 to wound)
That's 160 shots which will statistically kill a predator in one turn or 17 space marines.
the_Jakman wrote: Almost done reading though this whole thread. It seems that almost everyone is running cultists mostly as MSU with autoguns. Sometimes a large blob with autoguns and the occasional squad equipped with pistol/ccw. But only like 1 or 2 guys have bothered to upgrade to special weapons.
Don't you think MSU squads camping backfield objectives would benefit from a heavy stubber? At 4 points it allows them to actually roll some dice while camping, if it kills a single guardsman, it's made its points pack. Seems like ok investment to me.
I'm going to be infiltrating a large blob of pistol/ccw guys and using tide of traitors. A couple of flamers will mean I'm down 3-4 wounds in the squad, but the extra punch could be worth it. Especially if they're getting all up in loyalists faces, then recycling the squad. I'm not sure though.
How do you use your cultists?
Well.
I’ve got lots of MSU Heavy Stubber units that I made from Skaven, Beatmen, Necromunda minis etc back when there was an Apocalypse formation that enabled you to infiltrate then turn them into Chaos Spawn. They still make appearances for screening and CP farming. Don’t run into GEQ often, but they take out a Wolf or Genestealer now and then.
I’ve gathered five loads of DV guys. I like to use a big load of gunners with my Word Bearers, deliberately exposing them to fire without endurance spells, to soak up bullets and draw chargers then ToT into the backfield. I like to use a big horde of stabby Flamers with my Death Guard. They’re a lynchpin in a Poxwalker farm.
The trick here is to make them a threat. They get Warptimed forwards, so that they can use their four Flamers on the first turn. Ideally the opponent will try to overkill them, reckoning to finish the last ten or so with Morale, whereupon I save them with Insane Bravery then ToT them and repeat, with thirty free zombies to boot. Sometimes I field them as Word Bearers, with a clearly Slaaneshi champion to use EC and really intensify their threat rating. Sometimes I field them as Death Guard, to save having to re-roll a mediocre Advance on one of their moves.
They could be interesting as Renegades, as well, able to declare a charge against some Agressors or such to really fire up the Poxwalker farm.
Optimum deployment for 40 cultist mob is with an Iron Warrior battallion detachment with a Lord with cold and bitter trait, so they are immune to morale and the opponent has to killl them 'till the last man otherwise you can recicle them with Tide of Traitors.
Also an intersting warldord is an Iron warrior DP with axe, fleshmetal exoskeleton and the trait with the 6++. If needed you can spend a CP and give another 6++, with delightful agonies is unkillable
brugner8 wrote: Optimum deployment for 40 cultist mob is with an Iron Warrior battallion detachment with a Lord with cold and bitter trait, so they are immune to morale and the opponent has to killl them 'till the last man otherwise you can recicle them with Tide of Traitors.
Also an intersting warldord is an Iron warrior DP with axe, fleshmetal exoskeleton and the trait with the 6++. If needed you can spend a CP and give another 6++, with delightful agonies is unkillable
Whilst iron warrior cultists also seem good, I personally think alpha legion cultists are more optimum.
They are -1 to hit @12 inches and they can deploy anywhere on the table 9 inches away from an enemy for 1 cp. Deploy them with a dark apostle (1CP) and they get leadership 9 and reroll 6s in CC.
At minus 1 to hit, +1 to save, if you infiltrate them into cover (which you should), and leadership 9, they are quite hard to remove from the table and will soak up a lot of fire. And anyone who has faced a blob of 40 pitentially rapid firing cultists will know that they have to be dealt with. Also nobody likes losing models to cultists, so in my experience they do draw a lot of attention.
Additionaly if they look like they are going to be wiped out from a leadership test, all you have to do is burn 2 CP to auto pass and then use tide of traitors to earn the respect of your opponent as he happily has to deal another 40 cultists on his flank or rear.
also with dark apostole is hard keep them alive, cover or not they die fast and when you lost 10+ (pretty easy kill 10 cultists) of them you test and lost more, time ago i infiltrated in cover 36 cultists, my opponent was able to kill half of them then i losted a lot by morale, now im playing large mobs (2x40 cultists) with abbadono or IW lord/prince
brugner8 wrote: Optimum deployment for 40 cultist mob is with an Iron Warrior battallion detachment with a Lord with cold and bitter trait, so they are immune to morale and the opponent has to killl them 'till the last man otherwise you can recicle them with Tide of Traitors.
Also an intersting warldord is an Iron warrior DP with axe, fleshmetal exoskeleton and the trait with the 6++. If needed you can spend a CP and give another 6++, with delightful agonies is unkillable
Are we certain that all three additional saves can be bagged together? Tyranids have a similar arrangement that's forbidden.
brugner8 wrote: Optimum deployment for 40 cultist mob is with an Iron Warrior battallion detachment with a Lord with cold and bitter trait, so they are immune to morale and the opponent has to killl them 'till the last man otherwise you can recicle them with Tide of Traitors.
Also an intersting warldord is an Iron warrior DP with axe, fleshmetal exoskeleton and the trait with the 6++. If needed you can spend a CP and give another 6++, with delightful agonies is unkillable
Are we certain that all three additional saves can be bagged together? Tyranids have a similar arrangement that's forbidden.
There's nothing that specifically forbid this build. The sources for the 6+++ saves are completely different, one from warlord trait and one for Iron Warrior's Stratatagem
brugner8 wrote: Optimum deployment for 40 cultist mob is with an Iron Warrior battallion detachment with a Lord with cold and bitter trait, so they are immune to morale and the opponent has to killl them 'till the last man otherwise you can recicle them with Tide of Traitors.
Also an intersting warldord is an Iron warrior DP with axe, fleshmetal exoskeleton and the trait with the 6++. If needed you can spend a CP and give another 6++, with delightful agonies is unkillable
I'd argue the optimal deployment for a 40 cultist mob is standing next to Abaddon as part of a Black Legion detachment, who makes them immune to morale, rerolling all missed to-hit rolls, and also allows them to advance and shoot.
I thought I was sold on going Alpha Legion, the -1 to hit, infiltrating and the warlord trait are hard to pass up. Not so sure now, for a couple of reasons.
Talking to the guys on the painting/modelling forum about conversions. I like the idea of lots of mutated marines, noise boys, oblits, spawn and possessed. But I've learnt that heavily mutated guys are not really that fluffy for AL.
1/2 my army will be podding/deep striking, rather than taking advantage of infiltrate. I'd only be using it for max 1 squad of cultists anyway, maybe.
I'm liking the idea of large blobs of cultists with buffs, and the +2 CP for Abbadon seems like gravy.
I don't know. I keep flip flopping around. I'm trying to toe the line with being relatively competitive and fluffy.
the_Jakman wrote: I thought I was sold on going Alpha Legion, the -1 to hit, infiltrating and the warlord trait are hard to pass up. Not so sure now, for a couple of reasons.
Talking to the guys on the painting/modelling forum about conversions. I like the idea of lots of mutated marines, noise boys, oblits, spawn and possessed. But I've learnt that heavily mutated guys are not really that fluffy for AL.
1/2 my army will be podding/deep striking, rather than taking advantage of infiltrate. I'd only be using it for max 1 squad of cultists anyway, maybe.
I'm liking the idea of large blobs of cultists with buffs, and the +2 CP for Abbadon seems like gravy.
I don't know. I keep flip flopping around. I'm trying to toe the line with being relatively competitive and fluffy.
To each their own. I get the benefits of Alpha Legion, but Abaddon just makes everything around him so much better. His presence means you get to use Tide of Traitors an extra time with the bonus CP for having him as your Warlord.
If you want to screw with someone, bring 2 40 man units of Cultists and park them on separate objectives. Daisy chain them to get within 6 inches of Abaddon for immunity to morale and the rerolls to hit. Use ToT when your opponent kills enough of them or you reach 4th turn. Then advance right back to the same objective while shooting.
It's a nearly automatic way of getting 2 victory points at the end of the game. By that point, most armies can't kill cultists fast enough and you win the point based on objective secured.
Now... what's better, a -1 to hit or immunity to morale? It's not hard to kill 10 cultists a turn even with the negative hit modifier. Keeping another 10 from running away is what matters, otherwise you are doing ToT before you have to. And the rerolls to hit mean your cultists are softening up your opponent before they get there.
Would something like this work better if you infiltrated the cultists? It's a lot easier to wipe out big units at the start of the game. While 40 models attacking is no joke, it's not the same as taking objectives with impunity. I've never seen a big cultist unit do more than kill small numbers of MEQ.
So i know i'm a bit late to the party, but Ive just heard about the Chapter Approved points changes. The change that affects me the most is the 70pt increase to the Kharydbis pod. This really puts it outside my budget at 1500pts. The Doom siren has dropped to 10, I think I'll defititley bring one now. Considering the huge points drop for the fire raptor I might take one instead of the kharybis, and just infiltrate my noise marines.
How has the point changes affected you guys? Anything yoive had to shelve? Anything thats now more cost effective for you?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading some theads about the CA changes. Lots of people are really salty. Lots of the changes seem really weird. Like conscripts costing the same as standard guard. I know conscripts were popular, but how does that make sense? Relating to this thread though, the fire raptors points decrease is strange. Most of the forgeworld changes have been huge increases, but the raptor has been decreased. Maybe the source i was reading is wrong. (Also, talking aboit swapping my kharybdis for a raptor, i didnt factor in weapons cost, so thats probably out too)
Automatically Appended Next Post: All these points changes are doing my head in. Knowing that GW plans on selling a new CA every year, makes me think I might just start playing power level outside of tournaments
The KAC change is the one that affected me the most. I liked it as a transport for Noise Marines, now it doesn't fit. I never bring my Lord of Skulls, but now I won't consider it.
Hey wanted to know if i could play my following army on a small 1500 point tournament and not get completely destroyed?
It's a alpha legion daemonprince spam with cultists, not the most competitive but i really love it and want to make it as good as possible without kicking my Daemonprinces.
I took Alpha Legion cause of the -1 to hit debuff, but maybe i should take Thousand Sons or Chaosdaemons?
Here is the army:
Alpha Legion Battalion:
DP with Axe and Wings, Nurgle
DP with Sword and Wings, Tzeentch
28 Cultists with Autoguns
2x10 Cultists with Pistols and CCW
Alpha Legion Supreme Command:
DP with Talons and Wings, Slannesh, WL, Trait: I am Alpharius, Intoxicating Elexir (sry if it's written wrong, but i don't know another word for it )
3x DP with Sword and Wings, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slannesh
7 CP
I have about 40 Points left over, what should i do with them?
My favorite daemon prince is tzeentch with warlord trait daemonspark deepstriking in with obliterators and flamers of tzeentch. Does decimator count as a daemon? Be nice to add that to the mix too.
Darksider wrote: Hey wanted to know if i could play my following army on a small 1500 point tournament and not get completely destroyed?
It's a alpha legion daemonprince spam with cultists, not the most competitive but i really love it and want to make it as good as possible without kicking my Daemonprinces.
I took Alpha Legion cause of the -1 to hit debuff, but maybe i should take Thousand Sons or Chaosdaemons?
Here is the army:
Alpha Legion Battalion:
DP with Axe and Wings, Nurgle
DP with Sword and Wings, Tzeentch
28 Cultists with Autoguns
2x10 Cultists with Pistols and CCW
Alpha Legion Supreme Command:
DP with Talons and Wings, Slannesh, WL, Trait: I am Alpharius, Intoxicating Elexir (sry if it's written wrong, but i don't know another word for it )
3x DP with Sword and Wings, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slannesh
7 CP
I have about 40 Points left over, what should i do with them?
Hope some of you can help me a bit =).
Well, i think you should grab some fast screens to escort some of those princes.
Barring that, Definitely switch to CD for some deepstrike options and Demonic Attributes, or TS for more durable Princes, with tons of Powers to choose from.
-1 to hit isn't super useful for DPs because you'll likely have them screened on turn 1 anyway. Access to Skullreaver, TSDPs, and Daemonspark WT and the deep strike stratagem is worth changing up your detachments a bit.
If you don't want to alter your list too much just add another 10 autogun cultists to your 28-man unit. Once they've done their job screening on turn 1 you can recycle them into your opponents' backfield and start clogging stuff up.
So i am going to switch out the Alpha Legion Supreme Command for a Thousand Son Supreme Command, so the Daemonprinces can get more powers and are a bit stronger.
How can i get all the artefacts into my detachments? I know one is free for one of your detachments.
But is it possible to get say Skullreaver, the Impossible Robe and a Darkmatter Crystal in the same army?
Here is another try:
Chaosdaemons Battalion:
Khorne DP with Wings and Axe, Skullreaver
Tzeentch DP with Wings and Talons, Impossible Robe
3x3 Nurglings
Thousand Son Battalion:
Tzeentch DP with Wings and Sword, Warlord, +1 to invul trait, Darkmatter Crystal
Tzeentch DP with Wings and Sword, Helm of the third Eye
Tzeentch DP with Wings and Sword
1x19 Cultists
2x10 Cultists
Thousand Son Outrider:
Tzeentch DP with Wings and Sword
3x1 Chaos Spawn
Points: 1497
CP: 10
Powerlevel: 84
If it is possible to get all the artefacts, i have to spend 4 CPs on them 1 for the Thousand Sons and 3 for the Chaosdaemons.
Nature's Minister wrote: My favorite daemon prince is tzeentch with warlord trait daemonspark deepstriking in with obliterators and flamers of tzeentch. Does decimator count as a daemon? Be nice to add that to the mix too.
It has the DAEMON keyword, but be advised - it’s best gun drops Mortal Wounds and won’t benefit from Daemonspark. Probably best not to anchor it to this deep insertion force, well, not unless you put it in a Dreadclaw...
Edit: even then, you may as well have just took two Decimators.
Your first relic you get for free in your Warlord's detachment, then you can spend the relevant 1/3cp stratagem to take 1/2 relics in the same or different detachment. I assume the CSM and CD relic stratagems are mutually exclusive but I'm not able to check right now.
Strategically I don't think spending so much resource on relics is worth it. I'd take Skullreaver and maybe Dark Matter Crystal and leave it at that.
Darksider wrote: Anyone some ideas or suggestions to my army above?
Can i take all the artifacts if i pay the commandpoints? Is there a restriction so i can only take artifacts from one detachment?
sure pay 3cp and you can take 3 of them.
think you have a lot of casters there with powers... i think you'll end up running out of decent stuff to cast solely on the basis you can't cast the same twice.
also think you are in danger of getting those DP's nuked before they get into CC without much screening. 6 might look scary on paper but when they are you chief damage units and they really do it best in CC you opponent has at least 1 maybe 2 turns unmolested to shoot them,,, they will die easily unless you have screening or other shooting to back em up.
i'd be tempted to take a unit of 30 tzaangors conga line them 9" away from the enemy for 1cp and cause havoc while the DP's get up there.
Nature's Minister wrote: My favorite daemon prince is tzeentch with warlord trait daemonspark deepstriking in with obliterators and flamers of tzeentch. Does decimator count as a daemon? Be nice to add that to the mix too.
It has the DAEMON keyword, but be advised - it’s best gun drops Mortal Wounds and won’t benefit from Daemonspark. Probably best not to anchor it to this deep insertion force, well, not unless you put it in a Dreadclaw...
Edit: even then, you may as well have just took two Decimators.
They're pretty mobile, right? Was thinking using twin butcher cannons to force nasty morale rolls.
Anyone comment on best troop/detachment set-up for ITC? It seems like at least slaneesh Stratagem on Oblits is mandatory (=/- VOTLW) which means for even two turns worth it could be a 4-6 CP Burn. Not counting if you have other strong abilities you want to pop.
Nurglings look good but of course don't give legion trait. Minimum unit strength cultists seem appealing but really limit you from going to two battalions (you will for sure give up repear). Alterntiavely, max strength cultist units are somewhat in vogue, although I am not completely sold on the necessity of brining morale negating (Iron warriors/abaddon) or the use of VOTLW/Prescience and/or warptime on a unit of 40 cultists (that only move 6 inches - 12 WITH warptime). This also eats a significant number of points and still likely will give up reaper against most chaffe clearing armies. Although I guess you do get the 2CP from abaddon which is nothing to laugh at - but would have to be black legion as opposed to alpha.
Are people running CSM? Or is it better just to accept CP cap of 6-8 depending on how detachments are built?
Nature's Minister wrote: My favorite daemon prince is tzeentch with warlord trait daemonspark deepstriking in with obliterators and flamers of tzeentch. Does decimator count as a daemon? Be nice to add that to the mix too.
It has the DAEMON keyword, but be advised - it’s best gun drops Mortal Wounds and won’t benefit from Daemonspark. Probably best not to anchor it to this deep insertion force, well, not unless you put it in a Dreadclaw...
Edit: even then, you may as well have just took two Decimators.
They're pretty mobile, right? Was thinking using twin butcher cannons to force nasty morale rolls.
It’s a nice perk. Given that fearlessness is not rare, and it’s a high S medium D weapon, you may well find it shooting something that doesn’t care about LD modifiers. Definitely a nice thing to tag a unit that’s getting Horrored or Bloodlet and increase chance of a wipeout - or of the enemy burning 2CP.
I'm conscious of spamming this thread with all my list ideas/changes. So if you feel like it, pop over to my list thread. I've tried to incorporate as much advice from here as possible. I'd appreciate your C&C.
Strategy: warp in terminator with sorcerer out of deny range, obliterators with daemon prince for rerolls, march pinks up the middle. Use gaze of fate to make sure prescience goes off and then shoot everything off the board with overcharged plasma and fleshmetal guns. Not super competitive but pretty fluffy if you pretend the chaos lord is warsmith Shon'tu.
Speaking of Iron Warriors. Basic Iron Warrior Noise marines without sonic blasters in a rhino. Potentially viable? With swords and pistol they are a decent assault unit that throws ignore cover Frag or krak nades as they die due to the chapter trait. Even with bolters instead of chainswords they on paper seem like an alright all rounder unit for Iron Warriors. 15 pts each isn’t crazy expensive for a chaff clearing unit.
Of course berzerkers do the same for a point more...
Had an idea for a list that I think would be pretty cool, not tournament competitive but I like it. So I noticed that Noise, Plague and Rubric Marines all have decent assault weapons or rules that allow them to move and fire.
Take Abbadon, surround him with multiple squads of Noise, Plague and Rubric Marines, MSU to maximize special weapons like, Blastmasters, Blight Launchers etc. Cultists up front. That's potentially a lot of models benefiting from fearless, reroll all hits, and move advance fire.
Seems like this could be a good core of an army. Like, not super competitive, but varied, fluffy and would look cool.
It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.
orkswubwub wrote: Anyone comment on best troop/detachment set-up for ITC? It seems like at least slaneesh Stratagem on Oblits is mandatory (=/- VOTLW) which means for even two turns worth it could be a 4-6 CP Burn. Not counting if you have other strong abilities you want to pop.
Nurglings look good but of course don't give legion trait. Minimum unit strength cultists seem appealing but really limit you from going to two battalions (you will for sure give up repear). Alterntiavely, max strength cultist units are somewhat in vogue, although I am not completely sold on the necessity of brining morale negating (Iron warriors/abaddon) or the use of VOTLW/Prescience and/or warptime on a unit of 40 cultists (that only move 6 inches - 12 WITH warptime). This also eats a significant number of points and still likely will give up reaper against most chaffe clearing armies. Although I guess you do get the 2CP from abaddon which is nothing to laugh at - but would have to be black legion as opposed to alpha.
Are people running CSM? Or is it better just to accept CP cap of 6-8 depending on how detachments are built?
Let's be clear. ITC rules give points for the power level of each unit destroyed, right? If you want to try for dual batallions, go ahead, but consider how matches are actually scored.
MSU seems disadvantageous. If you are going that way, Abaddon's aura that gives immunity from morale seems essential.
All you need for Abaddon's extra CPs is to have him as your warlord. Fine if you want to mix detachments.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.
It's meant to reflect most units in a Black Legion army are veterans. Abaddon can't be everywhere at once, and not everyone takes him.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.
It's meant to reflect most units in a Black Legion army are veterans. Abaddon can't be everywhere at once, and not everyone takes him.
But what's the incentive to NOT take him? He gives a better aura and extra CP and on top of that gets several keywords.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's mildly annoying that part of the Black Legion bonus is +1LD, but you're shoehorned into taking Abigail, and he provides a Fearless bubble anyway and you're trying to maximize that benefit of his rerolls regardless.
It's meant to reflect most units in a Black Legion army are veterans. Abaddon can't be everywhere at once, and not everyone takes him.
But what's the incentive to NOT take him? He gives a better aura and extra CP and on top of that gets several keywords.
I always take him in 2000 point games. He's why you play Black Legion.
In 1000 point games, he's not an auto-include because that's 25% of the points for your army. I would sometimes rather have a Daemon Price with Wings for increased mobility. Other times, I want to double down on infantry and take an Aspiring Champion & Sorcerer, relying on VotLW and other shenanigans to get some of the same benefits.
My FLGS meta is semi-competitive, meaning I play against some fluff list and some hard-as-nails lists. I've never been in a situation where it's bad to have Abaddon. For the most part, what he does is affect how you place your troops. I've lost a few games because I wasn't able to spread out enough to capture all the objectives I needed, but I've never been in a position where I wished for some other HQ when I took him.
Is a Warp Bolter on a CD Daemon Prince the index cost?
Only the CSM one was dropped in pts. Which direction in the flow chart does this one go in?
The Faction is the same, the weapon the same but it is different army, different data sheet, so different points cost right? The Warp Bolter isn't even listed in Codex so strictly using the Index, we pay full price, Yay or nay?
an Iron Warrior Lord with Fleshmetal Exoskeleton and Cold And BItter trait is a decent sobstitute for Abbandon, as you can keep him cheap at 74 point and you have 6" moral bubble and reroll 1.
On plus your cultists can benefit from Iron Warrior trait and negate cover.
sushi2001 wrote: I just constructed a fully magnetised knight with all the options, I would apppreciate some help with the loadout I should give him.
Usually some form of dual gun configuration is the best - two Thermal Cannons perform decently, and for a reasonable price. Twin Rapid-Fire Battle Cannons is also quite good, if you have the points to spare (100+ each). The stomp attacks are usually better than the chainsword or thunderstike gauntlet in melee, anyway, so neither of them is worth spending points on.
I would also advise the Ironstorm Rocket Pod as the Carapace Weapon, if any. The ability to snipe out mortar teams and the like is very valuable.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: Terminator lords are they worth taking or not? I do like the sound of a Nurgle one with the +1 would warlord trait and the Nurgle relic
Difficult to see what they’re optimal for.
Their aura wants to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful quartermaster, who’s just as capable of deep striking.
Their melee capabilities want to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful counter-attack model that can escape the reach of a bigger fish or an enveloping tarpit, who’s just as capable of deep striking.
If a fighter with high endurance is desired, then a Daemon Prince seems to do a far better job of it. It hits harder, it’s aura has a larger base to work with (and can transcend it’s <LEGION> with friendly DAEMON units), it can have wings, it has far more wounds, it can take a spell (and we *really* benefit from have access to Warptime, Death Hex, and Prescience) and it punches harder.
I built a Terminator Sorcerer and Lord to drop in with my Terminators in 7ed. In 8ed, I almost always leave them on the shelf and drop in Jump Pack equivalents instead. Especially since I may well Warptime the Termies and have to catch up with them next turn, since CHARACTERS can no longer tag along with units.
That juicy Puscleaver? It’s a lovely beatstick, and I want it delivered into a fight ASAP. Which wants mobility. Which doesn’t want TDA :/
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: Terminator lords are they worth taking or not? I do like the sound of a Nurgle one with the +1 would warlord trait and the Nurgle relic
Difficult to see what they’re optimal for.
Their aura wants to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful quartermaster, who’s just as capable of deep striking.
Their melee capabilities want to be mobile. A Jump Pack makes for a far more useful counter-attack model that can escape the reach of a bigger fish or an enveloping tarpit, who’s just as capable of deep striking.
If a fighter with high endurance is desired, then a Daemon Prince seems to do a far better job of it. It hits harder, it’s aura has a larger base to work with (and can transcend it’s <LEGION> with friendly DAEMON units), it can have wings, it has far more wounds, it can take a spell (and we *really* benefit from have access to Warptime, Death Hex, and Prescience) and it punches harder.
I built a Terminator Sorcerer and Lord to drop in with my Terminators in 7ed. In 8ed, I almost always leave them on the shelf and drop in Jump Pack equivalents instead. Especially since I may well Warptime the Termies and have to catch up with them next turn, since CHARACTERS can no longer tag along with units.
That juicy Puscleaver? It’s a lovely beatstick, and I want it delivered into a fight ASAP. Which wants mobility. Which doesn’t want TDA :/
Well damn that's kinda tbh as i was really hoping to get some use out. of my terminator lord. I do see your point though a jump pack is way better.
Its a shame puscleaver is Nurgle only as if it was just a generic poisoned weapon i could see some use for it on a Tzrench Lord on disc :/ (seriously gw out of all the relics you could have given tzeemch you gave a psyker only one)
I personally like Jump Pack lords for their mobility. The optimal use for a Terminator Lord may be summoning (even though it's disfavored, which I understand.)
Summoning is prone to failure, and you really have to commit to it. It's not as precise as Deep Strike, but it is a good way to place Daemons on the board without having to burn CPs on Denziens of the Warp. Having a TL who can stand up to small arms fire when something goes wrong is important, since he can't move and you likely need him to try the same trick the next phase.
The odds for summoning a Bloodletter unit can be nicely visualized: about a 33% chance for 30, a 66% chance for 20, and a 99% chance for 10. The combined odds of summoning a single unit of 20 over 2 turns works out close to 80%, and the combined odds of summoning a single unit of 30 works out to around 48%.
As long as the Character stays alive. Yes, a DP is going to have more wounds and better toughness. Yes, a Sorcerer can also do psychic stuff (and probably should accompany the CL.) But the DP can't Deep Strike the way the CL can and the Sorcerer doesn't have a reroll aura to improve the combat.
It's not competitive, but it's not a bad way to run a CL.
Summoning is useful if your playing a "adaptive" army where say 500 pts or so can be a wide range of stuff depending on who you are playing. Typically it's better to just place the units, but not always.
Dropping a term lords with some oblits and then using that forward position to start summoning on turn 2 can work depending on what your looking for.
Also summoning can be useful for certain things. I typically summon a changeling in to help with my defiler with my lord. Gives him reroll on 1's, allows for spells to be cast to make it better, and 6+++ bonus for an easy summon that doesn't break my detachment rules.
- quartermastering a load of Obliterators (still not as useful as a Jump Pack who can scarecrow with a Murder Sword, IMO)
- proxying Typhus in a Poxwalker farm
- quartermastering a gunline and having plenty of W to reinforce with Summoning (still not as useful as if they had a daemonic Mount for the extra Wound & better ability to counter-charge or leg it)
- really nice champion figure for a Terminator unit
- gimmick deep strike summoning list that forgoes the Loci and DS flexibility of actual Daemon detachments - that arrive and charge on turn one (still not as good as Jump Pack)
Yea, I might bring Termy Lords in a list where I run out of Jump Pack models first. Being able to move when and where you need to is more valuable. But I do have some nice conversions that don't see enough table.
I do tend to Deepstrike my oblits into cover, so a Termy Lord can sit in with them nicely. I plan in taking one termy Lord with the Oblits, and one with Raptors for a Night Lord theme I'm working on.
Hmm. I'm working on a Kharybdis full of Noise Marines, and I'm thinking they're a candidate for my Termie Sorcerer.
Tyranids have introduced guaranteed PotW to the meta. It'll probably be a common enough sight that having an extra wound on a gunner blob's Prescience/Warptime caster will be handy. It's a setup that will probably quite like a Daemonettes/Fiends/KoS summoner (gimmicky, but I like to field a casual/fluff army and lead it as well as I can) who doesn't care about low M. Got a jump Lord that I already use with a Dreadclaw Plasma Chosen squad that can handle the mobile counter-charging duties.
I've build a Forgefiends for a painting turnament. I've magnetize the weapons, what is the best way to build him ? Am I missing something with the Plasma ?
Hades autocannon seems more valuable.
Azuza001 wrote: Summoning is useful if your playing a "adaptive" army where say 500 pts or so can be a wide range of stuff depending on who you are playing. Typically it's better to just place the units, but not always.
Dropping a term lords with some oblits and then using that forward position to start summoning on turn 2 can work depending on what your looking for.
Also summoning can be useful for certain things. I typically summon a changeling in to help with my defiler with my lord. Gives him reroll on 1's, allows for spells to be cast to make it better, and 6+++ bonus for an easy summon that doesn't break my detachment rules.
This is about how I've been using them. Put the CL behind the Obliterators to reroll 1s, and summon before your opponent gets a chance to charge.
The great thing about this tactic is it discourages landing 9 inches away from your opponent. I can usually measure the distance to what I want to shoot before placing the Obliterators, and they end up far enough out to avoid a charge before the Bloodletters are summoned.
This tactic also has great synergy with MoS / Endless Cacophony and with a Terminator Sorcerer with Prescience / Death Hex. You can create a nasty fire base with the right pieces.
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lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. I'm working on a Kharybdis full of Noise Marines, and I'm thinking they're a candidate for my Termie Sorcerer.
Tyranids have introduced guaranteed PotW to the meta. It'll probably be a common enough sight that having an extra wound on a gunner blob's Prescience/Warptime caster will be handy. It's a setup that will probably quite like a Daemonettes/Fiends/KoS summoner (gimmicky, but I like to field a casual/fluff army and lead it as well as I can) who doesn't care about low M. Got a jump Lord that I already use with a Dreadclaw Plasma Chosen squad that can handle the mobile counter-charging duties.
A Kharybdis and a Dreadclaw is over 500 points. You might do better with Rhinos, honestly.
I did that with Noise Marines for a while. The KAC would deposit it's occupants, the Sorcerer would cast Warptime, and the Noise Marines unleashed their salvo before the KAC charged some vehicle / monster with the Melta Cutters.
It was a little gimmicky and tended to only work against non-optimized lists. The Noise Marines would get one really great round of shooting before something tore into them. The KAC was good at consolidating into combat because of the size of it's base, which often meant attacks were with the Blade struts (which degrade from S9 to S5 as you take damage.) But it was 50 / 50 on actually killing anything, it's real use was tying things up.
If you are going to do this, a few suggestions:
- Use Endless Cacophony the turn the NMs arrive. Don't expect them to last, they die like any other MEQ. One big squad of NMs is better than 2 smaller squads for this reason.
- Think about a screening unit. Terminators with Combi-Plasma are an excellent compliment to your NMs. Properly positioned, they will get you an extra turn of shooting with some of the NMs.
- Remember the Sonic Blasters are 4 shot bolters, don't waste their shots. It's better to take out a couple large screening units then waste all those shots on a single unit of Terminators (who are likely going to shrug off most of the damage.)
- If you can Multicharge with the KAC to target a vehicle plus a character, do it. It's the quickest way to get a Warlord kill with a CSM army. The Melta Cutter rule is worded so that you get to use them the turn you CHARGE a monster / vehicle. It does not say you have to ATTACK the monster / vehicle. The KAC is unlikely to actually kill a monster / vehicle with 20+ wounds, because the Blade struts will often degrade to S7 the first turn.
- KAC / NM tactics are a great reason to use Tide of Traitors. If you can wipe out a screening unit with shooting, you can use ToT to flood the zone with your own. Maybe have a Sorcerer cast Warp Time on the Cultists the turn after the KAC arrives to position them to protect all your other troops. For that matter, if you use ToT, consider warp timing the Cultists instead of the KAC.
- Think about what else can deep strike. A Terminator Lord for the reroll 1s, or Abaddon, can make your Noise Marines a lot killier.
To add to the TDA debate: I have tried 5 Blightlords supported by a Nurgle TDA Sorc and Tzeetch TDA Sorc.
Every game it has been extremely underwhelming; Sorcerers aren't very good in CC, and while I love their buffs, I kept wishing I had something better. For DG you can take Typhus in the same role, and hes 10000000x better.
A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!
Zid wrote: A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!
Re: shelving Terminators - how much of that is due to massed infantry in general, as opposed to problems with the Terminators? I get it that they are slow, but aren't there situations where they would be handy to have around? Are you finding they are entirely outclassed?
@techsoldaten - yeah, that’s pretty much how I’m going to use them - drop turn one, EC and focus on screens, beg my opponent to shoot at them and give me extra Prescience shots, then a Plasma squad to rapid fire at a target that’s lost its screen.
Interesting trick with the Kharybdis. I think I’ll give it a miss, though - I’m playing with friends and it’s an interpretation that seems to miss RAI.
Zid wrote: A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!
Re: shelving Terminators - how much of that is due to massed infantry in general, as opposed to problems with the Terminators? I get it that they are slow, but aren't there situations where they would be handy to have around? Are you finding they are entirely outclassed?
So this is my opinion JUST using Blightlord terminators;
1) WS 3 is bad if they don't have someone where to help them reroll (i.e. a prince or lord). I have found that I miss way too many swings.
2) They need a LOT of support to make back their points against most elites; for example, I charged 5 Blightlords buffed with Blades and Vitality into a Hive Tyrant that had been death hexed. Wounding on 3's is great, right? Well they didn't kill the tyrant; as a matter of fact, they only did 5 wounds, 2 of which were mortal wounds from 6's. This required 2 buffs from a nurgle sorc, and warptime from a tzeentch sorc.
3) 2 wounds isn't a whole lot.
4) They have a pitiful amount of attacks for an "elite" unit. 2 attacks per model, 3 for the champ... thats really low when you compare it to a blob of 30 bloodletters that costs LESS.
5) They try to be where you can make them "melee" or "shooty", but they don't do either better than a lot of options.
My findings are, point for point, you just have better things to spend your points on. As well, the stuff I geared my unit to kill (elites, monsters), they failed at doing consecutively each game. As well, they are pretty fragile; a 2+/4++ w/ DR sounds great, except when you think about it a lot of stuff does 2 or more wounds... so even against Power Klaws I'll lose 1-2 models a turn, on average, if they charge me (which will happen with 4" movement...) For example, my last game they failed to kill that tyrant, then got locked into combat for 3 damn turns against ONE Carnifex; I got lucky with saves, so I had one left at the end, but seriously... lol.
And I'm told Chaos terminators are even a little bit worse. It seems like most people relegate their Terminators to act as Scions essentially, but for 200+ points, is it worth that?
The only Terminators worth taking are WE Terminators because that gives them the +1A and re-roll charges; kitting Terminators out with any intention other than to have them charge in is pointless when Slaanesh Oblits exist.
I have my Terminators kitted with plasm+fists and have them hunt mid-sized tanks and multi-wound elite units whilst my Berzerkers hunt infantry and my Scorpion pops big models. The Terminators still aren't star players but it moves them from trash tier to usable tier.
lindsay40k wrote: @techsoldaten - yeah, that’s pretty much how I’m going to use them - drop turn one, EC and focus on screens, beg my opponent to shoot at them and give me extra Prescience shots, then a Plasma squad to rapid fire at a target that’s lost its screen.
Interesting trick with the Kharybdis. I think I’ll give it a miss, though - I’m playing with friends and it’s an interpretation that seems to miss RAI.
Yeah, but GW has had plenty of time to FAQ it. It's a fair interpretation, because you are trading massive damage on a vehicle for a character kill. Your opponent isn't really getting screwed.
The vehicles that a KAC can reliably kill are Razorbacks. Not sure about your local meta, but mine is filled with of Razorback / Assault Cannon spam.
The KAC is very good at killing them, and one of the tactics I used was to charge one, kill it with the Melta Cutters, then consolidate into combat with the next one. The huge base makes it easy to get just inside 3 inches of anything nearby the charge target.
Opponents tend to fall back with Razorbacks and hopes to shoot the KAC to death. That's actually very hard to do, and gives you the chance for multiple charges without having to use the struts. There was one game I played (and only one, not like this happens often) where this worked magnificently, wiping out 4 Razorbacks in cc with the KAC.
Also remember it has Machine Malifica. You can move up a tier in damage between turns if you are lucky.
Zid wrote: A TDA Lord can work in Death Guard, but in CSM jump lords are better overall. a 2+/5++ doesn't save a lord anyway, they die just as quickly with the TDA as without most games, IMO. As well, they are SOOOO SLOW. I never thought 4" movement would be that much of an impediment, but it really is; half the time they need extremely good assault rolls to get where they need to. I'd say they'd be much better if they could get the benefits of the Codex they are from (DG Sorcerers get the +1T/DR, 1k Sorc get +1 Invun/more spells, etc.). As is, I built several sorcs to support my blightlords, and I now find myself shelving terminators in general for some more Poxwalkers and two Demon Princes, they are just so much better!
Re: shelving Terminators - how much of that is due to massed infantry in general, as opposed to problems with the Terminators? I get it that they are slow, but aren't there situations where they would be handy to have around? Are you finding they are entirely outclassed?
So this is my opinion JUST using Blightlord terminators;
1) WS 3 is bad if they don't have someone where to help them reroll (i.e. a prince or lord). I have found that I miss way too many swings.
2) They need a LOT of support to make back their points against most elites; for example, I charged 5 Blightlords buffed with Blades and Vitality into a Hive Tyrant that had been death hexed. Wounding on 3's is great, right? Well they didn't kill the tyrant; as a matter of fact, they only did 5 wounds, 2 of which were mortal wounds from 6's. This required 2 buffs from a nurgle sorc, and warptime from a tzeentch sorc.
3) 2 wounds isn't a whole lot.
4) They have a pitiful amount of attacks for an "elite" unit. 2 attacks per model, 3 for the champ... thats really low when you compare it to a blob of 30 bloodletters that costs LESS.
5) They try to be where you can make them "melee" or "shooty", but they don't do either better than a lot of options.
My findings are, point for point, you just have better things to spend your points on. As well, the stuff I geared my unit to kill (elites, monsters), they failed at doing consecutively each game. As well, they are pretty fragile; a 2+/4++ w/ DR sounds great, except when you think about it a lot of stuff does 2 or more wounds... so even against Power Klaws I'll lose 1-2 models a turn, on average, if they charge me (which will happen with 4" movement...) For example, my last game they failed to kill that tyrant, then got locked into combat for 3 damn turns against ONE Carnifex; I got lucky with saves, so I had one left at the end, but seriously... lol.
And I'm told Chaos terminators are even a little bit worse. It seems like most people relegate their Terminators to act as Scions essentially, but for 200+ points, is it worth that?
I get it. One thing I'm hoping to see eventually is for Terminators to get 3 wounds a piece (maybe 4 for GK Paladins.) Making them a little tougher would make them more worth it.
There's just too much AP -3 multiwound weapons around. The second wound is nice, but it really only counts against small arms fire. Terminators should be able to shrug off a plasma shot, at least the elite ones like Blightlords should. They should be as tough as a GK Paladin.
What's the consensus on the best way to counter - 3 altioic fliers. Smite spam seems to have been tabled with the beta rules - foetid bloat drone with spewers? Are there other good options?
Sorry not enough experience with chaos to comment. Those fliers are a pain for every army though!
I usually play Iron Warriors but I got Abbadon and Ahriman on the cheap off a local player who was selling. I was thinking of how to use them from time to time. I came up with the below 2k list which uses models I own. Very simple plan, run berzerkers in, deep strike Ahriman using stratagem and warp time the talons in to tie up things. Cultists, Abbadon and obliterators walk up the field.
Black Legion Vanguard Detachment
Abbadon
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
3x Rhinos - 2x Combi bolters on each
10 Warp Talons MOT
2x obliterator squads MOS
Thousand Sons Patrol Detachment
Ahriman
40 Cultists MOT 10 Cultists MOT 10 Cultists MOT
I presume I can’t combine the two detachments into a single battalion as I wouldn’t get access to stratagems? Or that is how I understand it, that you require one pure detachment.
You’re understanding Stratagems right - a TS Detachment gets you access to TS starts and likewise a CSM/BL one.
Interesting list, shame you can’t squeeze in another TSorcerer for a little more DTW coverage and three more CPs. (And access to the big three - Prescience, Warptime, and Death Hex.) After dropping in Ahriman and popping an Endless Cacophony, you’ll not have enough CP left for a Tide of Traitors, which is a shame when you’re bringing a horde of forty. Perhaps a few Cultists and/or WTs could be substituted out?
Thanks, I figured it was that way. Shame as it would add two additional CP's.
I think on Ahriman i'd run him with Prescience, Warptime, and either the Tzeentch defensive power (+1 to invul saves/ 5++) or Death Hex depending on the game.
Maybe I could shoehorn one Tsorcerer in. Points are very tight though and I think you'd want to be running 60 cultists at least to justify Abbadon and his fearless bubble. The warp talons is a big unit of 10 so that they can tie up more units.
I'd probably save 2cps for tide of traitors and forgo endless cacophony. I think. I'd have to play with it first.
I need your help guys - currently i'm running a fluff army that doesn't do well on a competitive level. That's not to say that i dislike my custom warband.
Quite the opposite - i worship them. But they're bad in a competitive environment. They're fun to play for sure, but it's an Assault army, i.e. Possessed,
Maulerfiends, Bikes & Vindicators plus the usual chaff, and i've got the feeling that - unless you play Khorne Berserker - CSM assault isn't really good.
I was thinking of adding some Daemons to my army. I am currently running a Slaanesh CD supreme command detachment with 3 Heralds on mounts
to give my Mauler's the Advance/Charge & +1S bubble. It honestly doesn't do much, it's more of a gimmick. My idea was - and i'm not quite sure if this is
useful - to add Pink Horrors & 2 Units of Oblits but still run my Maulers & maybe possessed. It'd look something like this
It totally isn't a highly competitive list, i know that. I want to keep the flair of my Warband while being able to not being tabled instantly or not having any shooting
what so ever. Would you drop the Possessed entirely? I don't have berserkers & won't buy any because the models are, imho really ugly, so they're not an alternative
for me. The possessed are converted with AoS Blood Warriors & Wrathmongers - so making them MoT would seem weird. I was also thinking to double down on the assault aspect of the army, i.e. add more Slaanesh Daemons. Daemonettes & Fiends & drown the other player in 'useless'
bodies. But than again, no shooting is probably bad in 8th. I could give you a run-down of units i do have, if it would help. Thanks in advance
What Legion’s rules are you thinking? I’m guessing IW for the improved Oblits, or AL for the harder to hit Oblits and infiltrating Possessed?
The Possessed are probably going to be easy prey for D2 guns, and the threat of Hellblasters means they’re probably not uncommon in your meta. I tend to field mine in a transport. But then, I’m Word Bearers and can’t infiltrate them
You could take a single mounted Herald in an auxiliary Detachment. It’d cost 1CP, which is the same as deep striking a similar unit, and she’d get LoS. Then, merge the Oblits into the Spearhead and drop a Lasherfiend. The two remaining Lasherfiends can then trot forwards either side of the Herald. (Have to say, I like this gimmick - definitely going to give it a try.)
Perhaps that might free up enough points to trade a Possessed unit for a Rhino for the other two, and a cheap Helbrute or similar to fill out the Vanguard? That’d add even more to the vehicular threat saturation. Maybe even get two Helbrutes and fit the Exalted Champion in the Rhino with a single medium sized Possessed unit. Or have one unit on foot and one riding with the EC.
Alternatively, switching him for a Jump Pack Sorcerer gives access to the excellent Warptime, Prescience, and Death Hex.
Can you add noise marines? They can be kitted out choppy if you want. Shooty ones are super efficient tho. Better than possessed either way. Also 30 pinks would be better to absorb losses before losing assault 3. Might help to drop exalted champion for a sorcerer to access dark hereticus for warptime at least also.
I tried mauler and forgefiends for a while but I couldn't really make them work. Could you go a couple defilers maybe?
Also I feel your pain. I have like 800 points invested in terminators in my list and I know there are better options but I just like them too much.
Bryan01 wrote: Sorry not enough experience with chaos to comment. Those fliers are a pain for every army though!
I usually play Iron Warriors but I got Abbadon and Ahriman on the cheap off a local player who was selling. I was thinking of how to use them from time to time. I came up with the below 2k list which uses models I own. Very simple plan, run berzerkers in, deep strike Ahriman using stratagem and warp time the talons in to tie up things. Cultists, Abbadon and obliterators walk up the field.
Black Legion Vanguard Detachment
Abbadon
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
10 Khorne Berserkers - Icon of Wrath
3x Rhinos - 2x Combi bolters on each
10 Warp Talons MOT
2x obliterator squads MOS
Thousand Sons Patrol Detachment
Ahriman
40 Cultists MOT 10 Cultists MOT 10 Cultists MOT
I presume I can’t combine the two detachments into a single battalion as I wouldn’t get access to stratagems? Or that is how I understand it, that you require one pure detachment.
I ain't feeling Black Legion on this one. While Abigail would significantly increase the output of the Berserker Marines...they already attack twice. On top of that, they aren't even going to get any benefit outside the +1LD.
Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.
Word Bearers Spearhead
Sorcerer - Jump Pack, Force Sword, usually Warptime and Prescience
10 Noise Marines - 8 Sonic Blasters, 2 Blastmasters, Doom Siren, Lightning Claw, IoE
Hellforged Dreadclaw
3 Obliterators - MoN Hellforged Rapier - C-beam Cannon
Hellforged Rapier - C-beam Cannon
Miasma Poxbringer hangs out with the big guns behind a PB screen.
My Oblits are too diseased to pass off as MoS for EC. So, I’m spending 1CP to make Fleshy Poxbringer come in with them. He’ll help keep them alive longer, and make them generate extra wounds as I spend 1CP on VotLW.
Noise Marines drop in the Dreadclaw alongside Sorcerer. Warptime DC into the enemy and Prescience the NMs. Spending 3CP on VotLW & EC.
2CP are for wild cards; re-roll a couple of casting or wound rolls, or maybe a second EC if I get lucky, or maybe even revive a dead Oblit.
I’m thinking of making Miasma Poxbringer into Warlord with +1W. Fleshy Poxbringer would get Corruption; I’m expecting Oblits to be a target for charges. IMO the CD Tactical Objectives are better for an all-comers list that’s got a Nurgle Oblits unit. This also gives me a pretty safe Warlord.
I have not yet faced a Dark Reaper castle. I would hope there will be LOS-blocking terrain that will make such threats manageable.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.
@lindsay40k
Nope, i play Renegade CSM only. The Possessed can quite comfortably footslog, but i agree - they'll be blasted of the table in an instant. But, you gave me an idea.
What if i had more Smite / Psychic powers that'll deal mortal wounds while keeping the CP. Tried a bit around - it surely is just another chaos-soup now. But oh well:
CD Battalion - Tzeentch - 508 pt.
Fluxmaster - Warlord (Daemonspark), Impossible Robe (Boon of Change, Flickering Flames)
Fluxmaster - (Treason of Tzeentch, Gaze of Fate)
2x20 Pink Horrors
10 Brimstones
CSM Spearhead - Renegade Chapters - 1246 pt.
Tzeentch Daemon Prince w/ Wings (Warptime)
2x 8 Possessed - MoK
2x Lasherfiends - MoS 2x 3 Oblits - MoT
CD Supreme Command - Slaanesh - 246 pt.
3x Herald on Mount (Pavane of Slaanesh, Symphony of Pain, Cacophonic Choir)
total: 2000 pts on the button.
The Steed-Heralds tag along the Fiends & can clear / deal lots of MW against chaff & provide the Charge/Advance/+1S bonus.
The CSMDP gives Rerolls to both Heretic Astartes (Oblits, possessed, fiends) and Daemons (Horrors) while having Warptime to
accelerate a Fiend or the Possessed. The DP may be a bit overwhelmed with its jobs (rerolls for almost anything) but them's the
breakes. And the Fluxmasters can buff the Horrors & Oblits.. and i can keep my beloved Fiends & Possessed. What do you think?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.
Sir Daddy issues is just to make those thousand son cultists fearless and dish out re-rolls to the obilterators. I’d say Abbadon buffs berzerkers to the nines, but I doubt that will happen much.
Also cause I’m looking for a reason to use the model. My Iron warriors get the fearless bubble for 74pts, but can’t use it on another legion!
Hey guys been a while since I looked at this thread but I want to get some opinions on an idea I have been considering.
Ive got a fallen angels list (csm alpha legion rules) being led by Marbas (fallen DP). To make this list fluffy i'm running CSM detachments (battalion and spearhead) and Im planning on having points put aside for summoning tzeentch daemons.
I've been thinking that there is some really good synergy with alpha legion forward operatives. The plan would be spend 2 CP to deploy a blob of 40 cultists in my opponenets face with a dark apostle. The DA can then summon a blob of 20-30 pink horrors.
This puts a huge wall of infantry in front of my opponent with some decent fire power and the ability to seriously slow them down whilst i lock down ovjectives and get into position. Also woild help to get my DP up the board with more safety.
Im also thinking of getting some exalted flamers to add to my summon pool for some extra firepower.
Obviously this list is very aggressive and would do better getting turn one.
Has anyone tried anything similar, and do people think this strat could be successful?
I can post my draft up list if people are interested in seeing exactly what im thinking of running.
Infiltrating cultists into your opponent's face is a solid and proven tactic. However, there is no point bringing the DA along as summoning is just *that* bad. You are better off taking 20 Pinks and just deepstriking them in your turn 1 for the same CP as you spent on putting the DA there, but without any chance of failing the summoning roll and no chance of your DA taking mortal wounds.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: Hey guys been a while since I looked at this thread but I want to get some opinions on an idea I have been considering.
Ive got a fallen angels list (csm alpha legion rules) being led by Marbas (fallen DP). To make this list fluffy i'm running CSM detachments (battalion and spearhead) and Im planning on having points put aside for summoning tzeentch daemons.
I've been thinking that there is some really good synergy with alpha legion forward operatives. The plan would be spend 2 CP to deploy a blob of 40 cultists in my opponenets face with a dark apostle. The DA can then summon a blob of 20-30 pink horrors.
This puts a huge wall of infantry in front of my opponent with some decent fire power and the ability to seriously slow them down whilst i lock down ovjectives and get into position. Also woild help to get my DP up the board with more safety.
Im also thinking of getting some exalted flamers to add to my summon pool for some extra firepower.
Obviously this list is very aggressive and would do better getting turn one.
Has anyone tried anything similar, and do people think this strat could be successful?
I can post my draft up list if people are interested in seeing exactly what im thinking of running.
i'm curious, are you planning to run the Fallen as Fallen, or as Chosen, or as something else? The transport issue comes to mind.
Dark Apostles cannot move with the Cultists using Tide of Traitors. How would it get up the board for summoning?
It feels like a list I would want to run, were it not for those issues.
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saint_red wrote: Infiltrating cultists into your opponent's face is a solid and proven tactic. However, there is no point bringing the DA along as summoning is just *that* bad. You are better off taking 20 Pinks and just deepstriking them in your turn 1 for the same CP as you spent on putting the DA there, but without any chance of failing the summoning roll and no chance of your DA taking mortal wounds.
Summoning has it's place.
Deep striking 20 pinks with Denizens of the Warp costs 2 command points and you're stuck with Pink Horrors if they are part of a detachment.
Summoning 20 pinks with 3 dice goes off 66% of the time for no command points (you have about a 99% chance of summoning 10.) If you decide you really need Bloodletters instead, you can change your mind. With a command point reroll, your odds of summoning 20 go up to just under 80%.
Yes the DA cant FO with the cultists but I can spend another CP to FO him as well. For 2 CP i get a squad of 40 cultists up the field ready to to rapid fire ( if i get first turn), supported by a DA and I have a pretty decent chance of summoning the Horrors (can burn an extra CP if i need to for reroll) for even more firepower.
And as you mentioned I can do all of this without committing to filling a detachment and finding ways to move them up the board.
I tend to run a sorcerer with jump pack or termie armour too whcih i can deepstrike, so this gives me the option of summoning some exalted flamers the next turn to boltster the cultists and pinks and to counter attack.
Of course this is all theory because I dont even have the daemons yet, I just thought it could add some nice fluff to my list and also be quite effective in my semi casual gaming group.
Also I play havocs as 'fallen' equiped with plasma in one squad and las/missiles in the other. This is because I like being able to forward operatives them if i need to, I like to -1 to hit and for the reason you mentioned, there is no option for transport with actual Fallen.
Denizens of the Warp is 1CP for 20 Pinks, 2CP for 30. So the CP cost for infiltrating the DA + Cultists is the same as infiltrating Cultists and deep striking, but you have 100% chance of getting them in vs 66%. Spending a CP for 80% isn't bad odds but then you're down an extra CP and *still* face risk of failure not to mention the 5/12 chance of inflicting a mortal wound on yourself. The other bonus here is that now you don't need to spend points on a DA and can instead spent them on a much more useful Herald of Tzeentch (provided you're bringing Pinks).
It's true that summoning gives you flexibility in what unit you bring in. However, Bloodletters and Pinks perform the same role and are very similar in their effectiveness (there is a lot of discussion on this in the Daemons tactica). This means the flexibility you have with summoning isn't that great as you end up with the same result (annihilating screens or exposed units) regardless of which option you choose. It's true that you could take Bloodcrushers or Flamers but these two units are both inferior to the equivalent points spent on Bloodletters and Pinks respectively.
Regarding the Pinks requiring a detachment - this could be good or bad depending how you look at it and the rest of your list. It could be argued that by summoning you aren't making the most of ~150 points that could be used to gain CP. Tzeentch Daemon Battalions are easy to fill out due to cheap Brimstones and because their Daemonic Locus is really bad you can take Nurglings or other useful Daemon units without losing out on utility.
By all means go for the summoning route, especially if it fits the fluff you have created for your army, but I don't think it's the most efficient choice. I play Word Bearers with Daemon support so I really really wish summoning made sense but I've yet to find an instance where it is more efficient than other options we have. Instead I am running a detachment of Daemons that deep strikes in that I consider my CSM to have summoned.
saint_red wrote: Denizens of the Warp is 1CP for 20 Pinks, 2CP for 30. So the CP cost for infiltrating the DA + Cultists is the same as infiltrating Cultists and deep striking, but you have 100% chance of getting them in vs 66%. Spending a CP for 80% isn't bad odds but then you're down an extra CP and *still* face risk of failure not to mention the 5/12 chance of inflicting a mortal wound on yourself. The other bonus here is that now you don't need to spend points on a DA and can instead spent them on a much more useful Herald of Tzeentch (provided you're bringing Pinks).
It's true that summoning gives you flexibility in what unit you bring in. However, Bloodletters and Pinks perform the same role and are very similar in their effectiveness (there is a lot of discussion on this in the Daemons tactica). This means the flexibility you have with summoning isn't that great as you end up with the same result (annihilating screens or exposed units) regardless of which option you choose. It's true that you could take Bloodcrushers or Flamers but these two units are both inferior to the equivalent points spent on Bloodletters and Pinks respectively.
Regarding the Pinks requiring a detachment - this could be good or bad depending how you look at it and the rest of your list. It could be argued that by summoning you aren't making the most of ~150 points that could be used to gain CP. Tzeentch Daemon Battalions are easy to fill out due to cheap Brimstones and because their Daemonic Locus is really bad you can take Nurglings or other useful Daemon units without losing out on utility.
By all means go for the summoning route, especially if it fits the fluff you have created for your army, but I don't think it's the most efficient choice. I play Word Bearers with Daemon support so I really really wish summoning made sense but I've yet to find an instance where it is more efficient than other options we have. Instead I am running a detachment of Daemons that deep strikes in that I consider my CSM to have summoned.
That's a far cry from summoning being "that bad."
You mentioned efficiency, which is actually what makes summoning a very valid alternative. When you summon, you don't pay the HQ tax for a choice that won't synchronize with the rest of your army. Khorne Heralds / Karanak still have to be paid for, and the only reason they are there is to support that Bloodletter bomb (same is true with their Tzeentch alternatives.) If you're just looking at a couple units of Daemon infantry, you're paying 20% more when you consider the HQ tax.
When you stop to consider the combined odds of getting 8 PL of summoning, on 3 HQs it works out to about a 99% chance of getting what you want. The wording of Daemonic Ritual is that you can summon one new unit, not that you must place one new unit. I would gladly trade 3 CPs for a 2% chance of something not going off.
Sure, placement of the HQs matters and DotW lets you place your unit anywhere on the field, but I don't see people using Bloodletter bombs for objective grabbing. These are usually shock troops called in the first rounds, and summoning would be a totally viable means of getting them there.
@EverlastingNewb - looks similar to a lot of my friendhammer lists. For fun games, it looks pretty viable. Though you’ve only got one more Possessed model than before, and morale may well remove it... best of luck getting them across the table.
Heralds setting up chaff units to take Ld-based MWs does have hard counters, and the Horrors are already on crowd control. I’d be inclined to try it out, then try switching two for Rhinos and taking the CP hit for an auxiliary Detachment - I think a Havoc Launcher and a Combi-Flamer will make them match for points.
Khorne heralds give re-roll charges and +1 strength, how on earth is that bad? Tzeentch Heralds are even better with +1 strength and Flickering Fires letting you wound MEQs on 2s.
If you are suggesting wasting the movement phase of 3 HQs + risking giving yourself mortal wounds (5/12 per attempt) I don't really know what to tell you.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Cultists in Rhinos, worst idea ever? With minimal thought put into it, they will either be ignored and be able to cap objectives, or require more effort than they should to kill. Save the CP to use tide of traitors on a big unit while these harass stuff.
...Yeah no, that's a total waste of points.
Devils advocate here but if your list is running rhinos to protect Noise marines turn 1 for example, then hopping cultists inside after the marines get out ans set up is not a horrible play by any means. You figure a Rhino is 74 pts, so sure you could buy nearly 20 more cultists, but honestly 10 t7w with a 3+ is arguably better then 20 t3 wounds with a 6+, sure one is better vs elite weapons while the other spam fire but as I said, If your taking rhinos already it's by no means bad. I run with rhinos in my EC list to protect my noise boys and already use them after deployment to charge the enemy and get in the way, no reason they couldn't take 10 PITA with them lol.
Project Clown Car just got a tenuous green light from me
But if your only running rhinos for cultists you may want to run more gun instead, but I'd want to see your list before I disregard any tactic.
Glad I got this discussion, thanks for pointing out some of the down sides to summoning saint_red.
My example is a very specific use of summoning as a way of maximising an alpha strike. In this case if a mortal wound on the DA meant i got the 20 pinks out, i think it isnt the worst tradeoff.
You make a very good point about the heralds too, I also really like the changeling. Once I get more models I think I may try running a battalion of daemons.
Another thought I have had after reading these responses is that I could always run a patrol detachment with a herald + pinks. Deep strike the pinks and herald for 2 CP as well as the 40 cultists if i think its necessary for another CP. They lose DA but this may not be a huge problem, especially because they will come back with ToT. This option eliminates the risk of perils or not getting the summon off, i get the herald buffs and i get access to the daemon stratagems and spells. Only thing is I miss out on is the CP. I actually really like this option though.
Outside of this specific scenario I still think summoning is a great and flexible way to get daemons onto the field. For starters I dont have to commit to certain units, I can decide to deploy different units in response to my opponent. E.g if I am getting smashed on a flank or rear my HQ can summon something in direct response to this. I dont think the risk of mortal wounds outweighs the positives of it nor the loss of movement, particulalry if it is a sorcerer or DP with warptime to get that move back.
saint_red wrote: Khorne heralds give re-roll charges and +1 strength, how on earth is that bad? Tzeentch Heralds are even better with +1 strength and Flickering Fires letting you wound MEQs on 2s.
If you are suggesting wasting the movement phase of 3 HQs + risking giving yourself mortal wounds (5/12 per attempt) I don't really know what to tell you.
The items you point out are not bad. They are nice bonuses, in fact.
But one of the main complaints about Bloodletter Bombs is overkill, even without Heralds. Why offensively buff something that is already going to kill it's target? I could see Heralds as being important if you are going against Knights, Tanks, Crisis Suits, etc. But Heavy Infantry, MEQ, chaff, etc - these things die quick to AP -3 weapons. And you have an 88% chance to make a charge at 9 inches with a CP reroll.
With regards to movement, sure, that's a drawback. But there's an 80% chance it only affects one character. That's not a game changer for me, that's normal positioning to maintain auras.
Let's remember, I was responding to a comment about how awful summoning is. My point is summoning has it's place and is certainly not as bad as it's being described.
blackmage wrote: the main problem of summoning is forfeit movement phase, in a dynamic game like 40k that can be huge sometimes
As per post above, warptime.
But then you're wasting one of the best powers we have available.
A DP with wings or a HQ with jump pack is still going to get a solid movement after warptime. Yes summoning has some drawbacks but the strategic flexibilty make up for these, and warptime also helps buffer out the loss of movement issue. Sure it might slow you down a bit, but it means you can now drop a fresh unit into position to counter an opponent I still think it makes up for this drawback.
If you get a chance listen to the guys from forge the narrative discussing it. People seem to hate summoning immediately because its so different to 7th, but 7th summoning was broken. They are of the opinion that tournaments will see people testing this out a lot more and that it definitely has its place. You can essentially change your army mid game in response to an opponents list! Thats a huge advantage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Completely unrelated, I love your Guilliman conversion mrhappyface. Get some paint on that bad boy and post some pics.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: A DP with wings or a HQ with jump pack is still going to get a solid movement after warptime. Yes summoning has some drawbacks but the strategic flexibilty make up for these, and warptime also helps buffer out the loss of movement issue. Sure it might slow you down a bit, but it means you can now drop a fresh unit into position to counter an opponent I still think it makes up for this drawback.
I was more meaning you wouldn't then be able to use warptime on a different unit to get them into combat, grab an objective, etc. I know that there's very few situations where I won't use warptime in a game if I have the ability to.
If you get a chance listen to the guys from forge the narrative discussing it. People seem to hate summoning immediately because its so different to 7th, but 7th summoning was broken. They are of the opinion that tournaments will see people testing this out a lot more and that it definitely has its place. You can essentially change your army mid game in response to an opponents list! Thats a huge advantage.
Perhaps but you'll have to spend a turn or two building up your counter and turn 1 is now the most important round of the game: if you don't do a significant amount of damage in turn 1 this edition, you've lost. I'd honestly just pay the CP and deepstrike in a battalion of Bloodletters/Horrors to either wipe out some infantry or tie up some tanks/monsters.
Completely unrelated, I love your Guilliman conversion mrhappyface. Get some paint on that bad boy and post some pics.
Thanks! I'm currently backed up with painting my main army right now and haven't found the enthusiasm to go back to it yet, I'll get round to it eventually even if I do take a round about route.
Perhaps but you'll have to spend a turn or two building up your counter and turn 1 is now the most important round of the game: if you don't do a significant amount of damage in turn 1 this edition, you've lost. I'd honestly just pay the CP and deepstrike in a battalion of Bloodletters/Horrors to either wipe out some infantry or tie up some tanks/monsters
Agreed that turn 1 is important and that is why I also run warptalons and oblits for some more nasty alpha strike. To me that is enough to some serious damage without putting all the eggs in one basket. With my list i have 7 CP. 2-3 CP getting daemons and cultists down give me 4-5 CP left for endless carcophony, veterans of the long war, and tide of traitors. My CP budget is tight already.
Im also not too keen on investing too heavily into daemons yet, as he core of my list is fallen angels. So really just hoping to test this out and go from there. We all know how these things start though, ask me next year and ill orobably have 2000 pts of daemons
I’ve been running a Khorne Herald with the Crimson Crown as a buffguy for a Lord of Skulls and a Chaos Lord on Juggernaut, and the team does some nasty work. The crown gives extra attacks with weapons when you wound on 6’s, am I right that any extra attacks the Lord of Skulls makes can be used on sweeping strikes that add 3 attacks instead of 1?
Perhaps but you'll have to spend a turn or two building up your counter and turn 1 is now the most important round of the game: if you don't do a significant amount of damage in turn 1 this edition, you've lost. I'd honestly just pay the CP and deepstrike in a battalion of Bloodletters/Horrors to either wipe out some infantry or tie up some tanks/monsters
Agreed that turn 1 is important and that is why I also run warptalons and oblits for some more nasty alpha strike. To me that is enough to some serious damage without putting all the eggs in one basket. With my list i have 7 CP. 2-3 CP getting daemons and cultists down give me 4-5 CP left for endless carcophony, veterans of the long war, and tide of traitors. My CP budget is tight already.
Im also not too keen on investing too heavily into daemons yet, as he core of my list is fallen angels. So really just hoping to test this out and go from there. We all know how these things start though, ask me next year and ill orobably have 2000 pts of daemons
I know the feeling, up until now I've only run CSM this edition but tomorrow I'm trying out a Daemon Battalion with my WE list and spending a whopping 6CP to DS in 30 Bloodletters, 20 Horrors, a Herald of Tzeentch, a Herald of Khorne and a Khorne Daemon prince. That's gonna jump in with a unit of Terminators, a unit of Oblits, a Terminator Lord and a Jump pack Sorcerer. Hopefully it'll be a lot of fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: I’ve been running a Khorne Herald with the Crimson Crown as a buffguy for a Lord of Skulls and a Chaos Lord on Juggernaut, and the team does some nasty work. The crown gives extra attacks with weapons when you wound on 6’s, am I right that any extra attacks the Lord of Skulls makes can be used on sweeping strikes that add 3 attacks instead of 1?
Yep, it's just an attack so you can choose which profile to use.
Yep, it's just an attack so you can choose which profile to use.
Does the +1S help at all with the LoS?
Yeah, but not initially. His degrade table lowers his strength from 10/7/4 so once he’s taken some damage it helps. With the herald and a Sorcerer putting the +2 str power on him he stays at peak murderpower til death.
Perhaps but you'll have to spend a turn or two building up your counter and turn 1 is now the most important round of the game: if you don't do a significant amount of damage in turn 1 this edition, you've lost. I'd honestly just pay the CP and deepstrike in a battalion of Bloodletters/Horrors to either wipe out some infantry or tie up some tanks/monsters
Agreed that turn 1 is important and that is why I also run warptalons and oblits for some more nasty alpha strike. To me that is enough to some serious damage without putting all the eggs in one basket. With my list i have 7 CP. 2-3 CP getting daemons and cultists down give me 4-5 CP left for endless carcophony, veterans of the long war, and tide of traitors. My CP budget is tight already.
Im also not too keen on investing too heavily into daemons yet, as he core of my list is fallen angels. So really just hoping to test this out and go from there. We all know how these things start though, ask me next year and ill orobably have 2000 pts of daemons
I know the feeling, up until now I've only run CSM this edition but tomorrow I'm trying out a Daemon Battalion with my WE list and spending a whopping 6CP to DS in 30 Bloodletters, 20 Horrors, a Herald of Tzeentch, a Herald of Khorne and a Khorne Daemon prince. That's gonna jump in with a unit of Terminators, a unit of Oblits, a Terminator Lord and a Jump pack Sorcerer. Hopefully it'll be a lot of fun.
That does sound like fun. A lot of threats in your face all at once.
Keen to hear how this went and what you played against
I was paired up with a pretty standard deathguard list: lots of zombies and plague marines, many special characters and a few Helbrutes and Plague Drones. We were up against a vehicle heavy guard list: Super Heavies, leman russes, support tanks and bubblewrap, and a deep strike heavy Admech list: lots of vanguards and electro priests as well as dune crawlers and robots/servators.
The Daemon Detachment was actually really helpful and made the game much more fun: the horrors and bloodletters came down and slaughtered almost all of the bubblewrap units so that next turn my terminators and oblits could get at the meaty stuff.
Star units:
Berzerkers: so feared are they that the admech player through all of his deep strike units at them, he managed to destroy the rhinos and then the berzerkers swamped over half his army on their own.
Bloodletters: the guard player wasn't happy about having 30 bloodletters sat in front of him so dedicated almost all of his firepower taking them out, they managed to hold out long enough to protect Fluffy the Daemon Prince from being shot.
Obliterators: this was more luck, this 3 man unit of oblits managed to survive 3 whole turns of fire from two Valdor tank hunters and support tanks.
Terminators: often overlooked because terminators as a whole are crap but Khorne terminators with warptime and prescience can easily down two dangerous units in a turn. Mine came down, shot a Valdor to 6 wounds (later cleaned up with smite) and blew a punisher tank commander to high hell. The next turn they killed a company commander and a veteran squad, so not a bad point sink.
Dishonourable mention:
Slaanesh Daemon Prince: poor sod never got to swing this game; his first target he accidently whiped out with a roll of 11 to cast smite and a 6 for mortal wounds and the second unit he set his eyes on got jacked by a DGDP. The unit the DGDP attacked then exploded and did 4MW to the poor Slaaneshi Daemon Prince. He didn't last long after that.
All in all a fun game and I'd definitely recommend a Daemon Detachment for clearing chaff before the stronger units come in.
101% agree with you. Today my vacation began & startet of with a game in my local Warhammer store. It's a fun list of mine with a Daemonette bomb, Slaanesh-Maulerfiends & my usual stuff. It's a
fun list but pretty feeble.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic)
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Chaos: Malefic talon, The Mark of Excess, The Murderdance, Warlord
Slaanesh: Hysterical Frenzy
Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker Chariot: Symphony of Pain
Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker Chariot: Delightful Agonies
+ Troops +
Daemonettes: Alluress, 29x Daemonette, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette, Instrument of Chaos
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette, Instrument of Chaos
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Legion: Renegade Chapters
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power axe
Exalted Champion: Bolt pistol, Mark of Slaanesh, Power axe
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, No Chaos Mark
Cultist Champion: Autogun
+ Elites +
Mutilators: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Mutilator
Possessed: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne, 5x Possessed
Possessed: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne, 5x Possessed
Possessed: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne, 5x Possessed
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
It works quite nicely actually - even though the internet says that daemonettes are bad. My opponent though was quite tough. Ultrasmurfs & papa smurf with some guard chaff. Turn's out, they like shooting - a lot.
Since i don't have Bloodletters & Pink horrors, i cannot field the 'better' chaff blender units, but the daemonettes actually did quite nicely if i say so myself.
And to go with your poop & non-poop units:
non-poop:
Slaanesh Daemon Prince - Unholy Smokes on Toast. So.Many.Attacks. 9-11 at the start of the game he/she ended up, after killing 2 transports, a Smurf-Character & Paps with 12+d3 attacks.
Possessed - what can i say, i'm biased. 2 Units moved 13 in Turn 1 and stood in front of my enemy, survived some Bolter & Plasma fire (because they're awesome) & survived until the end.. well, 1. Yes, 1 possessed.
Daemonettes - again, so many attacks. I'm noticing a pattern here. They charged the chaff and blended it into a fine, pink, paste. Later they died quite dramatically to bolter fire while missing a 6" charge. Well done, gals.
Cultist - They hid in the ruins & captured point after point while being utterly ignored. Just Cultist stuff.
poop:
Seeker Chariots - Base is to small for their ability to do 'something' but to big to ride along the fiends & they're too expensive to be 'good'. Next time i use steed Heralds instead & add a fiend or two.
suprise-non-poop-star-unit: My freshly converted & finished Mutilators did really well. The best distraction-carnifex i could've brought. 126 points for some can-openers with 3 wounds? Ouh yeah!
Sounds like a fun game! I do think Mutilators have a fair bit of potential to be the ignored threat. Poor movement and low unit size can lead to them being underestimated; reasonable price makes them fairly disposable, low unit size gives potential for teleporting inside ruins where they can’t be seen and suddenly they’re a problem.
Had a fun game today. Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh, Lascannon Helbrute, Reaper+Missile Helbrute, and ten Terminators with two HF, four Plasma, four Melta, and Icon of Wrath. Faced off against a Ghostkeel, eight or so Battlesuits, and a lot of shield drones.
Helbrutes didn’t last long - one got Missled on turn two, other got down to 2W and hid for the rest of the game. Terminators teleported in front of the enemy army, Warptimed into their faces, Prescienced (which just kept offsetting his Stratagem that reduced their hit rolls). Did a whole lot of punching - burned 3CP on Fury of Khorne! - and only really managed to kill two drone units. And were left in a ruin to face Tau shooting. Didn’t actually do much to me. Next turn, I smote the last wound off that Ghostkeel, and didn’t move the Terminators. Who would I? This gave them a 0+ save (yes, 1’s always fail), and there were loads of targets in close Melta and flaming range. Took me up to four points; threw in with a banzai charge at his commander, which only managed to kill another drone unit, but that got me up to five points, and kept his army so busy they couldn’t come up and table me after finished off the termies. It was his second game of 8ed and he had a great time. Couldn’t resist some Waluigi theatrics when my Terminators failed their fist save of the game
Moving swiftly on: I’ve been invited to a campaign, where you build a character, and they progress from Space Hulk raids to Necro/KT skirmishes, to full blown battles. I’m making a Death Guard Lord who seeks apotheosis; I’m trying to spec out the PM champion mini for character hunting. I’m thinking... switch the fist for a Melta, ride with PMs in a rhino with plaguecaster and a Tallyman, take Arch-Contaminator and Plaguebringer. Really get in there and pile on buckets of mortal wounds - Blades of putrefaction + VotLW yields a MW for nearly every attack. Plus, solid synergy with PM melee unit.
Alternative list: loads of Cultists with Flamers carrying him along, a Poxwalkers unit behind them getting bigger and bigger, and a Deathshroud unit in reserve to land with him and let him gleefully over-extend.
blackmage wrote: the main problem of summoning is forfeit movement phase, in a dynamic game like 40k that can be huge sometimes
As per post above, warptime.
But then you're wasting one of the best powers we have available.
A DP with wings or a HQ with jump pack is still going to get a solid movement after warptime. Yes summoning has some drawbacks but the strategic flexibilty make up for these, and warptime also helps buffer out the loss of movement issue. Sure it might slow you down a bit, but it means you can now drop a fresh unit into position to counter an opponent I still think it makes up for this drawback.
If you get a chance listen to the guys from forge the narrative discussing it. People seem to hate summoning immediately because its so different to 7th, but 7th summoning was broken. They are of the opinion that tournaments will see people testing this out a lot more and that it definitely has its place. You can essentially change your army mid game in response to an opponents list! Thats a huge advantage.
First off I play Nurgle.
Why not use the Denziens of the warp and 1 cp to drop two trees down with some obliterators. Warp time a nurgle winged prince up under the tree with the obliterators and then summon. 4d6 summoning roll with rerolls could be pretty good.
On another note. I have had all my characters sniped by an eldar for before loosing 700 pts of summoning. It sucked.
The real play with Death Guard is to take Possessed. They can benefit from Blades, VotLW, Virulent Blessing AND Locus of Virulence. Combined together your Possessed now do (on average) 2 damage + 0.5 mortal wounds/attack. Plus you wound literally everything in the game on a 2+. Have some trees in your deployment zone then use cloud of flies to keep them safe and you have a deathstar unit that will do 35+ wounds to a Knight.
saint_red wrote: The real play with Death Guard is to take Possessed. They can benefit from Blades, VotLW, Virulent Blessing AND Locus of Virulence. Combined together your Possessed now do (on average) 2 damage + 0.5 mortal wounds/attack. Plus you wound literally everything in the game on a 2+. Have some trees in your deployment zone then use cloud of flies to keep them safe and you have a deathstar unit that will do 35+ wounds to a Knight.
Possessed don't have plague weapons, so Blades of Putrefaction doesn't make them deal mortal wounds.
Possessed are also seriously expensive. For the same cost as 20 possessed, you could have 60 plaguebearers with 20 points left over.
A big blob of Alpha legion cultists with a Dark Apostle infiltrating in, then popping the daemon summoning stratagem on a bloodletter bomb. Worth using over denizens of the Warp? You get 30 nearly guaranteed bloodletters and 30 cultists rerolling all their hits, and it costs the same as denizen deepstriking the bloodletters normally. Plus a bunch of cultist bullet catchers to eat all the overwatch for the daemons so they’re fresh and raring to go.
well waprtime a model standing still in mov phase doesn't look like havy any sense, i prefer warptime for example the bloodletters i just evoked and get them in cac, or move that blob of Pb on a obj and so on... imho.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: A big blob of Alpha legion cultists with a Dark Apostle infiltrating in, then popping the daemon summoning stratagem on a bloodletter bomb. Worth using over denizens of the Warp? You get 30 nearly guaranteed bloodletters and 30 cultists rerolling all their hits, and it costs the same as denizen deepstriking the bloodletters normally. Plus a bunch of cultist bullet catchers to eat all the overwatch for the daemons so they’re fresh and raring to go.
if you intend dark pact it works only with world bearer characters not alpha legion, and if you mark the apostole alpha legion to infiltrate you cant use the stratagem with them, in any case Bl doesn't have the keyword "legion" so they cant benefit from apostole re roll aura.
Has anyone had much success with Slaanesh renegades? I've been thinking about running a small force of them insside my World Eaters army (Say, 500 points to a 2000 list) and i'm wondering how they are. I'd be going renegades for that legion trait and for fluff, and i'd probably take a small amount of noise marines for the keks, as well as Bikers and a helbrute.
ALSO, the noise marine upgrade kit. Finecast or plastic?
blackmage wrote: well waprtime a model standing still in mov phase doesn't look like havy any sense, i prefer warptime for example the bloodletters i just evoked and get them in cac, or move that blob of Pb on a obj and so on... imho.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: A big blob of Alpha legion cultists with a Dark Apostle infiltrating in, then popping the daemon summoning stratagem on a bloodletter bomb. Worth using over denizens of the Warp? You get 30 nearly guaranteed bloodletters and 30 cultists rerolling all their hits, and it costs the same as denizen deepstriking the bloodletters normally. Plus a bunch of cultist bullet catchers to eat all the overwatch for the daemons so they’re fresh and raring to go.
if you intend dark pact it works only with world bearer characters not alpha legion, and if you mark the apostole alpha legion to infiltrate you cant use the stratagem with them, in any case Bl doesn't have the keyword "legion" so they cant benefit from apostole re roll aura.
I wasn’t specific, sorry. There’s a stratagem in the Daemon codex that lets you roll 4d6 to summon a unit but you take d3 mortal wounds. That character then gives a reroll 1’s aura to what it summons. The Apostle seemed like a better option than a Lord for this, due to making the cultist unit more survivable with his leadership buff and less likely to die. Although you could do some unlucky rolls and kill off the Apostle too. It just seems like a more efficient bloodletter bomb with the off chance that the character dies horribly.
vaklor4 wrote: Has anyone had much success with Slaanesh renegades? I've been thinking about running a small force of them insside my World Eaters army (Say, 500 points to a 2000 list) and i'm wondering how they are. I'd be going renegades for that legion trait and for fluff, and i'd probably take a small amount of noise marines for the keks, as well as Bikers and a helbrute.
ALSO, the noise marine upgrade kit. Finecast or plastic?
Not so much success though a ton of fun.
1k
Spoiler:
flying dp w/ double talons jump pack lord with black mace 10 man csm with double melta and chainsword bolt pistols in a rhino 5 man with flamers 5 man with autocannon melta gun helbruit 5 man warptalons.
got wrecked pretty hard vs harliquin spam but i didnt really know what i was doing with them got my pants stolen by jean stealers just erasing units left and right. i got to dominate some cudstodes though i did get super lucky with objectives. (really really good at getting places with that CT)
flying dp w/ double talons
jump pack lord with black mace
10 man csm with double melta and chainsword bolt pistols
in a rhino
5 man with flamers
5 man with autocannon
melta gun helbruit
5 man warptalons.
got wrecked pretty hard vs harliquin spam but i didnt really know what i was doing with them
got my pants stolen by jean stealers just erasing units left and right.
i got to dominate some cudstodes though i did get super lucky with objectives. (really really good at getting places with that CT)
Is the Mace really a better option than giving the elixir to the DP?
I've started an Emperor's children army! My plan is to have a core of 3 squads of noise marines and two sonic dreadnoughts (from imperial armour/forgeworld index thing), 3 quad heavy bolter rapiers, and a big squad of 20 marines on foot.
In a few months I want to add a contemptor or two, a decimator, and maybe a regular helbrute. I would love to run a battalion with the noise marines in rhinos, the big squad of marines on foot, and a vangaurd detachment with a warpsmith or two, and all the dreads.
The basic plan would be to have the noise marines up, dismount and shoot, and then the dreads would all move in whilst firing and clean up in cc.
My gaming group uses old school scenarios like bases, big guns never tire, etc, so all these new card bases shenanigans are not a consideration. Also, I've played like 3 games in 8th so far, but I played a ton back in 5th and 6th, and tapered of playing in 7th.
Taking that into account, what do y'all fine folks think of the basic outline of this list?
blackmage wrote: well waprtime a model standing still in mov phase doesn't look like havy any sense, i prefer warptime for example the bloodletters i just evoked and get them in cac, or move that blob of Pb on a obj and so on... imho.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Badablack wrote: A big blob of Alpha legion cultists with a Dark Apostle infiltrating in, then popping the daemon summoning stratagem on a bloodletter bomb. Worth using over denizens of the Warp? You get 30 nearly guaranteed bloodletters and 30 cultists rerolling all their hits, and it costs the same as denizen deepstriking the bloodletters normally. Plus a bunch of cultist bullet catchers to eat all the overwatch for the daemons so they’re fresh and raring to go.
if you intend dark pact it works only with world bearer characters not alpha legion, and if you mark the apostole alpha legion to infiltrate you cant use the stratagem with them, in any case Bl doesn't have the keyword "legion" so they cant benefit from apostole re roll aura.
I wasn’t specific, sorry. There’s a stratagem in the Daemon codex that lets you roll 4d6 to summon a unit but you take d3 mortal wounds. That character then gives a reroll 1’s aura to what it summons. The Apostle seemed like a better option than a Lord for this, due to making the cultist unit more survivable with his leadership buff and less likely to die. Although you could do some unlucky rolls and kill off the Apostle too. It just seems like a more efficient bloodletter bomb with the off chance that the character dies horribly.
vaklor4 wrote: Has anyone had much success with Slaanesh renegades? I've been thinking about running a small force of them insside my World Eaters army (Say, 500 points to a 2000 list) and i'm wondering how they are. I'd be going renegades for that legion trait and for fluff, and i'd probably take a small amount of noise marines for the keks, as well as Bikers and a helbrute.
ALSO, the noise marine upgrade kit. Finecast or plastic?
Without Daemon support characters - i.e. Seeker Chariot Heralds / mounted Heralds - CSM daemon units with MoS are 'meh' at best. Double Chainfist Contemptor dreads are sinister IF they get there, outclassing Helbrutes but a mile. Here, the Renegade trait is really fun and quite dangerous. Bikes are 'meh' overall. They don't profit from Advance & charge since they're abyssmal in CQC. Not sure about the noise marines though, never used them & don't really like them either. I think CQC Chosen can work wonders with the Renegade trait - they're basically any-mark Berserker. Not competitive by a long shot. But 2/3 attacks per model with Chainswords / LC's or even Power-Weapons with Advance & charge plus any mark you like and a supporting Sorc, why not. And don't forget that Daemon Princes are included in the Renegade Trait. Even non-winged DP's are terrifyingly fast - not to mention how fast they are with wings. A Warptime'd Slaanesh DP with wings will always charge T1 no matter what. 12+d6+12+2d6 is 34" on average i believe (i'm poop at maths ). A pretty strong Distraction Carnifex for 180 points.
Infiltrating Dark Apostle using Summoning Stratagem to drop a Greater Daemon: 2CP, leaves a character with a couple of wounds running at the enemy just waiting to be sniped with rifles or niche psychic powers or a flanking charge, can still roll one too little to summon a GD, GD still has a 9” landing zone, adds cost of DA to cost of GD.
Warp-bombing a Greater Daemon: 2CP, GD has a Locus and access to Relics, doesn’t compel you to have a character with one or two wounds left follow the GD into the middle of the enemy army where a single advancing Flamer will kill him
I struggle to think of a way they could have made Summoning worse TBH
A. Only need one extra unit that is able to be dropped in without breaking chapter tactics
B. Have the points to spare for pink splitting but then find by the 2nd turn your opponent isn't going to kill the pinks to cause it
I use summoning to get a changecaster or changeling all the time in my Tsons army because it's cheap and easy to get (really, you can't get a 4 on d3? Your the worst summoner ever and deserve the mortal wounds).
On the notion of summoning, it's only useful for some Gods I find.
With armies like Tzeentch and Nurgle where you might not be moving all the time, your HQs can afford to stay put and drop stuff. But with Slaanesh and Khorne, you ALWAYS want to be moving, always always always. So its actually way too hard a nerf in my opinion to have your HQs squat.
A. Only need one extra unit that is able to be dropped in without breaking chapter tactics
B. Have the points to spare for pink splitting but then find by the 2nd turn your opponent isn't going to kill the pinks to cause it
I use summoning to get a changecaster or changeling all the time in my Tsons army because it's cheap and easy to get (really, you can't get a 4 on d3? Your the worst summoner ever and deserve the mortal wounds).
Quick question with splitting pinks, how many do people generally set asside for it. And do people generally split down to brims ?
A. Only need one extra unit that is able to be dropped in without breaking chapter tactics
B. Have the points to spare for pink splitting but then find by the 2nd turn your opponent isn't going to kill the pinks to cause it
I use summoning to get a changecaster or changeling all the time in my Tsons army because it's cheap and easy to get (really, you can't get a 4 on d3? Your the worst summoner ever and deserve the mortal wounds).
Quick question with splitting pinks, how many do people generally set asside for it. And do people generally split down to brims ?
I normally keep 200 pts in reserve for summoning / splitting but it depends on what you have available as well. I mean if I only need a changling but roll high enough for a deamon prince then I will grab a dp.
Furies & Fiends of Slaanesh are really funny to summon. Especially Fiends - Psyker debuff & locking tanks indefinitely can be fun, if not very competitive.
techsoldaten wrote: So, massed cheap infantry along with a powerhouse HQsFTW. Makes you wonder why we bring anything else.
Yeah, I'm slowly learning that any expensive models with more than 10 wounds this edition are not worth taking competitively. Massed infantry with either a lot of shooting or a CQC bomb is where it's at.
lol just came back from a small 25 person tourney today
one of the dudes was rocking 120 cultists, abby and 9 obilts with the tree an a load of nurglings... was horrible.
I played horror, tzangor with enlightened spam... i didn't get past turn one. some pics... really was horrible to face with my poor dg (i took a club list for the lols)
horde lots of shots and strat/buff/psy auras is the win in 40k now... unless the faq does something (like make auras have to encompass the whole unit) otherwise its here to stay
So are these lists great in tournament setting because games go 3 turns and just sit on objectives or is there a different aspect here? I feel like a lot of armies run flier spam/and or can fall back and shoot which would be hard for these lists to deal with over more than 4 turns. Even 240 cultist shots into an altioac flier sitting at -2 or -3 to hit will barely dent it -
240 * 1/6 * 1/3 and then any saves lets say a 4+ goes to about 7 wounds for all that daka unsaved. I realize the results may be slightly more favorable with prescience (conditional) and VOTLW but this also assumes cultists can get in range even with warptime (12 inch move ?) It seems like dark reapers could just sit out of range and fire tempest launchers and nuke it one squad at a time to prevent tide of traitors.
8th codex rules implant is wrong that's all, cheap infantry you can deploy tons and matches last few turns, the system which permit you use multiple detachments (so tons and tons of repeated cheaps troops) put the nail in the coffin, That said now hordes have the upper hands in particular if you can bring some decent firepower with it.imho
One problem is that the weakness of hordes (extra casualties from morale losses) is so easy to negate. It’s like if vehicles and monsters could put a character nearby that nullified multiple damage weapons.
that's main reason why this is the horde's edition, in most cases. add the fact they are usually very cheap and troops and you have the whole picture, see Nanavati list for example 115 fearless cultists 25 tzangors and 30 poxwalkers 160 infantry models taking the whole board and mostly fearless.
orkswubwub wrote: So are these lists great in tournament setting because games go 3 turns and just sit on objectives or is there a different aspect here? I feel like a lot of armies run flier spam/and or can fall back and shoot which would be hard for these lists to deal with over more than 4 turns. Even 240 cultist shots into an altioac flier sitting at -2 or -3 to hit will barely dent it -
240 * 1/6 * 1/3 and then any saves lets say a 4+ goes to about 7 wounds for all that daka unsaved. I realize the results may be slightly more favorable with prescience (conditional) and VOTLW but this also assumes cultists can get in range even with warptime (12 inch move ?) It seems like dark reapers could just sit out of range and fire tempest launchers and nuke it one squad at a time to prevent tide of traitors.
You won’t shoot down the flyers as often as you will smite spam them from behind the horde screen. There are usually 3 Daemon princes with the rabble. Typhus, Ahriman make 5 smites and then a DP charge into flyers. Yes you can also plink a few wounds with cultists shooting. Everything wounds everything and morale loses can be mitigated to easily for large units. Then Tide of Traiters recycles the whole mob.
Also cutlists don’t need to shoot a flier down. They just need to get to the objective and sit there. No eldar flier can kill 40 cultists in less than a few turns.
Now that everyone knows feculant gnarlmaw is the bomb.com What is the best way to run oblits? Anticipating they will get shot the turn after they drop - gnarlmaw does give a sweet "0+" save - but slaanesh lets you fire twice (+/- VOTLW) but comes at the price of 2 CP.
Assuming you are running them as a 3x3 in alpha - 2x nurgle and 1 slaanesh? Or 2 slaanesh and 1 nurgle? It may depend on the makeup of the remaining force but I am trying to understand point for point the value of nurgle oblits (with maw) vs slaanesh.
This is a list a dude at the last tourney i was at was running
Spoiler:
Total 9cps 2000pts 14 drops.
Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines Soup) [682pts]
Chaos Cultists [160pts]: 39x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh . Cultist Champion: Autogun, Black legion
Chaos Cultists [160pts]: 39x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh . Cultist Champion: Autogun, Black legion
Chaos Cultists [160pts]: 39x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh . Cultist Champion: Autogun, Alpha legion
Nurglings [108pts]: 6x Nurgling Swarms
Nurglings [54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Nurglings [54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Abaddon the Despoiler [240pts]: Warlord: first among traiters
Sorcerer with Jump Pack [122pts]: Combi-bolter, wc6 Delightful Agonies, Force sword, (relic Intoxicating Elixir), Mark of Slaanesh, wc7 Prescience
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [892pts] ++ Legion: All Black Legion
Obliterators [195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators [195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators [195pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators [195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [112pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Nurgle, Power axe
orkswubwub wrote: Now that everyone knows feculant gnarlmaw is the bomb.com What is the best way to run oblits? Anticipating they will get shot the turn after they drop - gnarlmaw does give a sweet "0+" save - but slaanesh lets you fire twice (+/- VOTLW) but comes at the price of 2 CP.
Assuming you are running them as a 3x3 in alpha - 2x nurgle and 1 slaanesh? Or 2 slaanesh and 1 nurgle? It may depend on the makeup of the remaining force but I am trying to understand point for point the value of nurgle oblits (with maw) vs slaanesh.
2 Nurgle 1 Slaanesh will be good. You don’t want everyone crowded in one place - there’s AOE Stratagems out there that some people might use for 0+ busting, and there’ll be times when you need to hit something out of reach of the tree’s... leaves
Plus, tree castling is exactly the sort of thing that metagames adapt to dealing with
Automatically Appended Next Post: What amazes me about the cultist hordes is the lack of flamers and whatnot
How are you finding Renegades & Heretics in your Chaos soup lists?
I am really considering buying 3 Basilisk/Russ models, but I don't like that I have no way to buff them or synergize. I'm also considering 15 marauders with 6 sniper rifles since everyone else seems to have ways to kill my HQ before they get to their units. Can R&H use AM strategems?
I started reading this thread before the Malefic Lord nerf and luckily they got updated before i finished and bought 12.
I am a fairly new player that has only played in one (albeit wonky with some crazy vestigal 7th ed house rules) tournament and one fate of Kondor or w/e that was event. I play Word Bearers (cuz flavor) and sone Daemons, and I have about 4500 pts of built and primered models (i like assembling and playing and painting takes so gd long). I mostly play friends and family.
I find my army lacking, still, anything that really forces my opponent out of their deployment zone. In that "tournament" I did ok, but not great, better than I expected.
This thread is awesome and I relish surfing it nightly. I appreciate the civil discussion, feedback, and tips.
Renegades and Heretics is like wanting the Blood Pact and getting Brain Boys instead.
I just use an R&H detachment occasionally for the Earthshaker Cannons. Like you said, they don't synergize with anything else. While the indirect fire is nice, their shots are very imprecise and they don't add much to most armies.
Were there a way to buff their BS, they would be awesome.
I ran 3 basilisks against Tau once, and they caused maybe 1 wound over the 2 turns I got to shoot them (game ended early). Crummy rolls on my part combined with great rolls for the Tau player. Very few hits, regardless.
However, to make a true Vraks-style list, I'm gonna be running Zhufor, Chaos Terminators, Berzerkers in Dreadclaws, Cultists, and Renegade Ogryns running up the board. It will be glorious.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: I ran 3 basilisks against Tau once, and they caused maybe 1 wound over the 2 turns I got to shoot them (game ended early). Crummy rolls on my part combined with great rolls for the Tau player. Very few hits, regardless.
However, to make a true Vraks-style list, I'm gonna be running Zhufor, Chaos Terminators, Berzerkers in Dreadclaws, Cultists, and Renegade Ogryns running up the board. It will be glorious.
Thanks for that. The bat reps i watch with AM Basilisks do ok/good for 100 points but their rerolling 1's is critical. Anyone else have an experience with them?
Or renegade Russes?
Also, forgive this noob, but can R&H use AM strategems?
Latro_ wrote: Well you add (Flamers to Cultists) and that's like 60 pts you spent which is another unit of them or nurglings.
True. I guess my perspective is coloured by years of trying to make Termagants an inviting target. An approach I’ve carried over to a Chaos Soup list; Blightbringer and WB Warptimer help 40 DG Cultists get up close, they inflict 4D6 hits, with a Poxwalkers unit behind them popping flies & walking dead. Enemy has to deal with the Cultists, but charging gets them hit by another 4D6, and any cultist casualty turns into a Poxwalker. Contributes to screen clearance, and threat overload. Probably not a tourney play but the ‘hordes make games end early’ point above reminds me of why I’m not into full competitive. It feels like trying to speedrun by playing with clipping bugs, I can see the appeal but it’s not my thing
R&H don’t have access to AM stratagems, or any of their own (beyond the 3 in the rulebook). Kind of a lame army, in the classic and modern sense of the word.
The flamers are never in range of anything if you Tide of Traitors off to the side somewhere. I've played lists with and without. The flamers help against (some) overwatch and against daemons for my games mostly. They did manage to scorch an unfortunate Librarian my last game. But when it comes to list building its something I'll add in if I have extra pts to spend.
R&H were alright when we had templates and low ballistic skill didn't matter when shooting lots of large templates at hordes, but now that we actually have to roll to hit: they're worse than Orks.
I wish we could get back Ordanance Tyrant so we could... No that's a lie, I wish they'd bring back templates!
Aren't R&H Marauder squads quite cheap? With Stalker-Specialists & 3 plasma weapons it's 63 points i believe. And Disciples can have Heavy weapons team that have BS 3+, so Veterans for less points with lower min. models per unit.
R&H do have access to a fairly cheap MSU unit that uses cover well and can bring a couple of sniper rifles
Snipers aren’t brilliant this edition, but they can force supporting characters to keep their heads down and now that I think about it have really good synergy with the Daemons strat that makes PotW do double damage
Most of the games I play are 50pow/1Kpts after work all comers at the store. The local meta’s pretty heavy on the dense gunlines at the moment, quite a lot of Tau trying out their new bags of tricks and some shooty Eldar as well. Also the odd IG army. Everybody trying to use character auras. What this means is an environment where nobody’s too worried about deep strikers and infiltrating screening units seem to be seen as a waste of points that could buy another big gun. I’ve been bringing along a Word Bearers list that was mainly written with quick games in mind (my Tyranid hordes rarely got to third turn before store close):
Sorcerer on Steed of Slaanesh with Warptime and Prescience
Helbrute with Twin Las, Fist
Helbrute with Reaper, ML 10 Terminators with 2 Heavy Flamers, 4 Plasma, 4 Melta, Icon of Wrath
Drop in, use a CP to make sure Warptime goes off (sometimes conga lining to avoid DTW coverage), try to get Prescience too, if I didn’t need to pop a CP for casting then use VotL in shooting or fight phase, after making attacks with Terminators invite opponent to convert to Lorgarian Polytheism. If declined, burn 3CP on Wrath of Khorne to hit them again and move another 6”, locking pretty much everything in combat
It’s going through this environment like a wrecking ball through a greenhouse. I’m going to give it one more week, then change out to Death Guard for a bit to (1) avoid being TFGal in friendlies, and (2) let the metagame adapt to the appearance of these predators. If I don’t start seeing Kroot, Rangers, and Ratlings, then I’ll break out a Hive Fleet Kraken Swarmlord and drown them in Genestealers until they get them message about screening
So looking at slaaneshi marines of the renegade variety
Could a couple of squads of rhino mounted csm (10 man just because i hate 5 man squads probably due to last edition where it seemed like 5 man squads died to so much as a gsneezing their way) with a couple of big blobs of cultists be a good start to a list
I was toying around with something like
Spear head detachment
Lord (probably no upgrades at all he's just there to buff the gun line)
2 x 5 havoc squads (1 with 4 plasma 1 with 4 rocket launchers)
3 obluts
Tri las predator
1 rhino for the plasma squad
Battalion
Sorceror with prescience and warp time
Dark apostle
25 auto fun cultists 2 heavy stubbera
30 cultists 2 flamers
10 csm 2 plasmas combi plasma rhino
10 csm 2 meltas combi melts power fist 7 bolt pistol chain sword guys rhino
Rhino mounted cam squads run around in their rhinos hop out to grab objectives and do a bit of damage
Cultists spread put and guard the gun line
Both oblits and Havocs are a good target for endless cacophony
I'd swap out the second 10 man unit of CSM (the melee one) for a unit of Berzerkers and an Exalted Champion, that'd do far more work than the CSM squad.
EDIT: just remembered you're doing a Slaanesh army, so ignore me unless you feel like converting some Slaaneshi Berzerkers (use the rules of berzerkers but the models will fit your fluff).
mrhappyface wrote: I'd swap out the second 10 man unit of CSM (the melee one) for a unit of Berzerkers and an Exalted Champion, that'd do far more work than the CSM squad.
EDIT: just remembered you're doing a Slaanesh army, so ignore me unless you feel like converting some Slaaneshi Berzerkers (use the rules of berzerkers but the models will fit your fluff).
Its funny because i do have bezerkers and going pure khorne was a option (funnily enough starting in 5th i committed the cardinal sin and mixed bezerkers with slaaneshi marines lol)
Actually it may be better as a khorne list vs a slaaneshi list as il admit slaaneshis best unit does appear to be noise marines (who i cannot stand the models flr).
Hm what about
Chaos Marines battalion dark raiders khorne
Dark apostle plasma pistol maul
Exalted champion combi melts power axe (swap his axe for the blind fury axe)
Troops
16 cultists auto guns
16 cultists auto pistol ccw 16 cultists auto pistol ccw Elites
8 possessed Icon of Wrath rhino
8 bezerkers 5 guys with a chain axe icon of wrath rhino
Chaos marines spear head dark raiders khorne
Lord bolt pistol chain sword
8 Havocs with 4 missile launchers
8 Havocs with 4 plasma guns rhino
3 obliterators (as these guys seem good in any gods army)
Apostle and champ rides with the bezerkers possessed go after the heavier single wound infantry (so regular power armoured guys) bezeekera clear out hordes missile Havocs and tanks clear out the opposing tanks/transports plasma havocs da am help with that or go after the like a of terminators amd thoseprimaris annoyanfea.s
Any reason for the possessed? They're just a massive disapointment this edition.
Berzerkers want to have a Powerfist+Plasma pistol on the champion and the rest want Chainaxe-Chainswords.
I'd keep the second detachment Slaanesh (for the juicy strat) and try to squeeze a Jump-pack sorcerer in somewhere: psychic powers push Khorne CSM from pretty good to ball blastingly terrifying.
The possessed are there mainly as i have 20 of the damn things as they have always been one of my favourite units plus so many formations requires them last edition lol.
Ive actually had a second idea for a list unforrunately in terms of heavy weapons im restricted but this will probably do for now
Battalion
HQ Lord with Plasma pistol and chain sword MoS Sorceror with jump pack MoS stave and plasma pistol warp time and prescience
Troops
10 CSM mark of slaanesh 2 x plasma guns combi plasma rhino
24 auto gun cultists mark of slaanesh
30 cultists auto pistol ccw slaanesh
Elites
10 possessed Icon of Excess mark of slaanesh rhino
Spear head detachment
Sorceror with slaanesh sword and bolt pistol Delightful Agonies
Heavy support
5 x Havocs with 4 missile launchers MoS 5 x Havocs with 4 plasma guns MoS rhino
3 obliteratora mark of slaanesh
This is roughly what im toying around with i don't want to go complete gun line as otherwise im wasting dark raiders. I could run Black legion and drop a sorceror and the lord and try to fit Abbadon in. Will have to toy around with this further i do have a few spare tactical marines hanging around who may be getting turned into Noise marines.
Are the blast masters worth it this edition?
How has that thing’s gigantic drill got so little offensive value? Vehicle ramming attacks are a joke in this edition. Trying to run critters over or pancake a rhino with your land raider is like
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yes, I know it has some representation of its ability with that Melta pistol, but come on, that thing clearly should be able to grind down a fortification
But then it would cost way too many points to be worth taking. At slightly above 100 points it’s a legit option. Also because it’s 12 transport you can put in a character and not lose out on any 10 man weapon restrictions
So it looks like you can't disembark on the turn you arrive.
This kinda reduces the appeal a lot. Certainly as a transport of quality units.
I still think 100 pts for a tank that can appear anywhere with a 12" mortal wound aura is pretty good. It's stats aren't awful either. The transport capacity is a bonus.
This looks like an interesting contender to the Dreadclaw, but for slightly different uses.
It's slightly cheaper, tougher, more transport cap, and has a ridiculous mortal wound bubble (not sure who at FW thought a 24" bubble with no rolls required would be fun. I really dont want to see 5+ on these at tournaments)
On the other hand, it's less killy by itself, can't fly, is slower, and the guys inside can't disembark the turn they come in.
That's not necessarily bad, because there's definily been times I've wanted to hold a unit of berserkers or something inside a dreadclaw for safety and next turn charge. On the other hand, it means you can get the termite surrounded and then not be able to get out at all, which sucks.
Not really sure how to make the best use of it. Maybe stick a cheap squad inside and try to crack isolated objectives?
McGibs wrote: This looks like an interesting contender to the Dreadclaw, but for slightly different uses.
It's slightly cheaper, tougher, more transport cap, and has a ridiculous mortal wound bubble (not sure who at FW thought a 24" bubble with no rolls required would be fun. I really dont want to see 5+ on these at tournaments)
On the other hand, it's less killy by itself, can't fly, is slower, and the guys inside can't disembark the turn they come in.
That's not necessarily bad, because there's definily been times I've wanted to hold a unit of berserkers or something inside a dreadclaw for safety and next turn charge. On the other hand, it means you can get the termite surrounded and then not be able to get out at all, which sucks.
Not really sure how to make the best use of it. Maybe stick a cheap squad inside and try to crack isolated objectives?
It’s got a distinction from the DC in that occupants with flamer weapons are not obligated to jump out on arrival and dance a jig 9.1” away. Definitely going to be more useful for Warpflame Rubricae, who currently take up your Warptime if you want a deep insertion move. Especially for remote static point offence and defence, where enemies are going to either stand there and take it or run towards you. If you can keep it from getting mobbed, they could be killer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, we have two types of dropship - one that everyone has to leave on landing, another that everyone has to stay in on emerging, with no flexible option where you can choose which
Our current best choices for Warpflame Rubrics are Land Raiders or a Warptime after BL or Dreadclaw, this really does look like the perfect option for them.
It's an interesting option, T8 means the enemy will have to put some dedicated anti-tank fire into it if they want to kill the units inside before the next turn. However, a shooting army won't have a problem breaking it open since it has only 10W and no invul and a CQC army will just surround it and trap your units inside. Think I'll stick with my Rhinos for now.
mrhappyface wrote: It's an interesting option, T8 means the enemy will have to put some dedicated anti-tank fire into it if they want to kill the units inside before the next turn. However, a shooting army won't have a problem breaking it open since it has only 10W and no invul and a CQC army will just surround it and trap your units inside. Think I'll stick with my Rhinos for now.
s'why you give it the mark of slannesh and put delightful agonies on it ohhhh the fluff XD
its sad with ruric stuff... they get outperformed by so much... like why not just go for flamers of tzeentch. Hopefully the next faq hits up a pts drop.
mrhappyface wrote: It's an interesting option, T8 means the enemy will have to put some dedicated anti-tank fire into it if they want to kill the units inside before the next turn. However, a shooting army won't have a problem breaking it open since it has only 10W and no invul and a CQC army will just surround it and trap your units inside. Think I'll stick with my Rhinos for now.
s'why you give it the mark of slannesh and put delightful agonies on it ohhhh the fluff XD
Unfortunately that doesn't help in terms of Berzerker delivery, the best kind of delivery.
mrhappyface wrote: It's an interesting option, T8 means the enemy will have to put some dedicated anti-tank fire into it if they want to kill the units inside before the next turn. However, a shooting army won't have a problem breaking it open since it has only 10W and no invul and a CQC army will just surround it and trap your units inside. Think I'll stick with my Rhinos for now.
s'why you give it the mark of slannesh and put delightful agonies on it ohhhh the fluff XD
Unfortunately that doesn't help in terms of Berzerker delivery, the best kind of delivery.
well... you could fit the LR sorcerer and some brimstone horrors into a non WE patrrol .... just hope khorne aint looking
Has someone experience using the hell blade from forge world?
I consider getting one or two.
They seem to be really good against 2W or 3W models especially if they can fly.
What do you think?
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: Has someone experience using the hell blade from forge world?
I consider getting one or two.
They seem to be really good against 2W or 3W models especially if they can fly.
What do you think?
150pts for T6 8W model that hits most things on a 4+? Eh, it might be good if your opponent lacks much anti-tank (though, at T6, you'd just need boltgun equivalents) or has a pure CQC army. Try it out in some friendly games maybe but it's not a good option.
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: Has someone experience using the hell blade from forge world?
I consider getting one or two.
They seem to be really good against 2W or 3W models especially if they can fly.
What do you think?
150pts for T6 8W model that hits most things on a 4+? Eh, it might be good if your opponent lacks much anti-tank (though, at T6, you'd just need boltgun equivalents) or has a pure CQC army. Try it out in some friendly games maybe but it's not a good option.
Ok, thanks for the fast response.
Then i might get some other unit from forge world to complement my IW.
I tried the Leviathan (as a proxie) once with double butcher cannons and it felt really impressive,so i might buy it instead. But i didnt like that the good cqc stats are completly wasted.
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: Has someone experience using the hell blade from forge world?
I consider getting one or two.
They seem to be really good against 2W or 3W models especially if they can fly.
What do you think?
150pts for T6 8W model that hits most things on a 4+? Eh, it might be good if your opponent lacks much anti-tank (though, at T6, you'd just need boltgun equivalents) or has a pure CQC army. Try it out in some friendly games maybe but it's not a good option.
Ok, thanks for the fast response.
Then i might get some other unit from forge world to complement my IW.
I tried the Leviathan (as a proxie) once with double butcher cannons and it felt really impressive,so i might buy it instead. But i didnt like that the good cqc stats are completly wasted.
Yeah, the hell blade is a lovely model (I have one for my Night Lords winged detachment) but they're a bit underwhelming.
FW models I've found to be good this edition:
Leviathan
Fire Raptor
Brass Scorpion
Besides those three I've found FW stuff to be overcosted and/or underpowered, which is a shame because the models are all fantastic.
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: Has someone experience using the hell blade from forge world?
I consider getting one or two.
They seem to be really good against 2W or 3W models especially if they can fly.
What do you think?
They're not... bad.
Having to move and be at -1 to hit means they aren't exactly deadshots.
I’ve had one on my wishlist for a while. Given how many D3 you roll, it’ll probably have a pretty reliable number of shots. 48” range, better shooting when still, and D2 mean it does a similar role to Autocannons. Higher AP, more shots, and lower Str mean it’ll be somewhat comparable to Havoc Autocannons squad against tanks and the like. Ability to to ignore LOS will be a situational boon - pretty good in a metagames of hidden rhinos full of shock troops. But also no way to VotLW and EC or use IW trait. So, probably about the same in terms of efficiency. Which is nice.
It will, however, be significantly better against 2W models, which tend to have T that’s the same for S6 and S7, decent saves, and be more capable of avoiding LoS. Aggressor ambushes, Terminators, Primaris, etc are going to hate it.
Latro_ wrote: Have any of you guys tried the hellforged scorpius? was thinking of a bit of no los needed chaffe clearance for my IW army.
Not sure 6d3 is worth 135 pts thou hmmm
oh lawd got the pts wrong thy are like 215pts.. prob not worth it
I have used Scorpius in my Death guard army many times. It's useful against bikers and IG heavy weapon teams. Sadly that's pretty much it. 5+ to wound and -2AP against vehicles is too unreliable. On the other hand those shots are wasted blasting regular T3 infantry as the Scorpius is so expensive.
I wanted to get the most out of my legion trait, so every unit is affected by it. Almost everything has some decent or good shooting. Spawns, Contemptor and the DP are for cqc. Cultists and Spawn are blockers.
The game went really well vs Tyranids even after going second. Although i thought at first the ignore cover trait is pretty bad (in a competetive way) it came up quite often and was a huge benefit. And made my Opponent quite salty
So i will definetly add more walkers (looking at you Leviathan) to that army.
I wanted to get the most out of my legion trait, so every unit is affected by it.
Almost everything has some decent or good shooting.
Spawns, Contemptor and the DP are for cqc. Cultists and Spawn are blockers.
The game went really well vs Tyranids even after going second.
Although i thought at first the ignore cover trait is pretty bad (in a competetive way) it came up quite often and was a huge benefit. And made my Opponent quite salty
So i will definetly add more walkers (looking at you Leviathan) to that army.
Was the Tyranid list horde heavy? There doesn't look like there's enough anti-horde weaponry in that list, I could be wrong in practise though...
On the subject of lists, I've been trying to put together a more competitive list but keeping my WE warband as the core:
Spoiler:
World Eaters Battalion Detachment - HQ Chaos Lord: Plasma Pistol, Power Fist
Exalted Champion: Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Terminator Lord: Combi-Plasma, Power Fist
Troops 3xBerzerkers: Plasma Pistol, Power Fist, 4xChainaxe+Chainsword, Icon of Wrath
Dedicated Transport 2xRhinos
Elites Terminators: 5xCombi-Plasma, 5xPower Fists, Icon of Wrath
Alpha Legion Battalion Detachment - HQ Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Prescience, Warptime
Daemon Prince with Wings: 2xMalefic Talons, Intoxicating Elixir, Diabolical Strength (Warlord - I am Alpharius)
Troops 3xCultists
Daemons Battalion Detachment - HQ Herald of Khorne
Herald of Khorne
Got the 30 man unit charging with 3d6" re-rolling to charge and a Bloodmaster for S6 on the charge; they'll clean up any chaff and hold as many things as they can in close combat to allow the berzerkers bomb and the terminator bomb to strike. The berzerkers roll up in Rhinos and the Terminators drop in with the Lord and Sorcerer for +1 to hit, re-rolling to hit and much needed warptime. Cultists will act as buffers for deep strike to protect the rhinos and the other two bloodletter units will act as counter charge.
Going to field it against Nu-Crons this week and see how it does. (Last time I faced Nu-Crons I won by the skin of my teeth)
It was more a nidzilla list than a pure horde. Horde clearing seems to be more difficult with my list though. Maybe i should add some Rapier Batteries with Quadbolters for clearing chaff.
Looks like a nice list. I just dont like putting 5 power fists on the termies because that unit is pretty expensive and has the -1 to hit. It imo relies to much on casting Prescience to work.
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: It was more a nidzilla list than a pure horde. Horde clearing seems to be more difficult with my list though. Maybe i should add some Rapier Batteries with Quadbolters for clearing chaff.
Perhaps (that fits quite thematically with your army) but I must (I'm obligated by law) remind you that Khorne has two of the best horde killers in the game, the terror twins: Berzerkers and Bloodletters.
Looks like a nice list. I just dont like putting 5 power fists on the termies because that unit is pretty expensive and has the -1 to hit. It imo relies to much on casting Prescience to work.
You underestimate the power of WE terminators: I've taken them in Khorne only lists and they do a lot of work, if they get into combat they'll do an average of 7 wounds on big monsters and vehicles (or whipe out a 5 man unit of something elite) with an invul save without even taking into account damage from shooting.
In the past few games I've had they've killed the following:
2x Triarch Stalker +, Warrior Squad
Terminus Ultra + Intercessor squad + Tac Squad + Primaris Chaplain + Primaris Lieutenant
Immortal Squad + 6 man Destroyer unit
Cataphractii Terminator Squad + 1 wound on Guilliman (they drew Girlyman away from his shooty units so they did their job)
They've become a pretty nasty assassin team once the enemy bubblewrap goes down.
I might underestimate them because whenever i try something like this it fails horribly. The last time i tried a Terminator Bomb my regular opponent had sudenly 20 Death Marks appear on the battlefield and the rest is history... It is something like trauma...
Sadly Berzerkers and Bloodletters dont really benefit from the IW trait and i want to play pure IW. I nevertheless already own some Berzerkers so they might see some use from time to time.
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: I might underestimate them beacause whenever i try something like this it fails horribly.
The last time i tried a Terminator Bomb my regular opponent had sudenly 20 Death Marks appear on the battlefield and the rest is history...
It is something like trauma...
Sadly Berzerkers and Bloodletters dont really benefit from the IW trait and i want to play pure IW. I nevertheless already own some Berzerkers so they might see some use from time to time.
Technically Berserker Marines DO benefit from the Iron Warriors benefit if you supplement with Plasma Pistols (and I always do). It just isn't exactly a good benefit when everyone else has just the melee weapons.
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: I might underestimate them because whenever i try something like this it fails horribly.
The last time i tried a Terminator Bomb my regular opponent had sudenly 20 Death Marks appear on the battlefield and the rest is history...
It is something like trauma...
Sadly Berzerkers and Bloodletters dont really benefit from the IW trait and i want to play pure IW. I nevertheless already own some Berzerkers so they might see some use from time to time.
Well that is a 400pt unit that they're dropping in so I'd expect it to do some damage. Though looking at the math, a 20 man unit should only kill 3 out of your 5 Termies.
Unholy amazeballs, made it through this thread. Time well spent I say. Thanks for all the ideas, it's been nice getting back into the hobby with this edition and reading up on the goods.
Some solid ideas in here, and some fun ones. I'm looking at building my Night Lords list to exploit the moral stuff. My group are super casual, but might head to the local games store once I've got a few more bits n bobs.
Basically I'm thinking MSU bikers as chaff clearers as they can get up close and shoot and put the moral pressure on (need to be within 6inches) with warp talons warptiming into something juicy or better still several juicy things, supported by Havocs and a predator (and a leviathan as soon as I can with butcher cannons for further morale pressure) with Raptors running interference and cultists doing their rinse and repeat shenanigans.
Nurgle Icon of Despair is super tempting but not super fluffy; might use it when it needs to be more competitive.
@the.cobb - Warp Talons want Warptime and/or Mark of Khorne + allied Herald (re-roll charges) to be effective. A really sneaky trick is to take two Sorcerers; one has Warptime, the o5er doesn’t. Have them a distance apart; your opponent assumes the WTime one is going to tag in the WTals and respond to that, then in your turn you use the Familiar Stratagem to give the other one Warptime and hit an area with less DTW coverage and screening that’s not prepared for WTals
A Daemons Patrol with Karanak and some cheap Bloodletters is a great source of Khornate Daemon Marines re-rolling charges. (I think a Decimator can take a Butcher Cannon? Great unit) Can even make him your Warlord for an additional Morale hit, though he’s not difficult to kill.
You’ll be wanting to hit several units a turn with multiple morale attacks, as focussing on one can be dealt with via Insane Bravery. Also, try to approach your morale sapping ability as a bonus, rather than a primary attack, as Tyranids and similar will laugh it off :(
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: A friend is getting forgebane soon and doesnt need the AdMech guys, so i thought about converting the Armiger to a Decimator.
Are they the same size?
A Decimator with a claw and butcher cannon seems to be pretty decent. Or are there better loadouts?
Yeah, they're just about the same size.
Despite how expensive it's gotten, I still think Soul burner Petards are the most fun out of the options option. Not necessarily better, but more fun.
PimpMasterGeneral wrote: A friend is getting forgebane soon and doesnt need the AdMech guys, so i thought about converting the Armiger to a Decimator.
Are they the same size?
A Decimator with a claw and butcher cannon seems to be pretty decent. Or are there better loadouts?
Yeah, they're just about the same size.
Despite how expensive it's gotten, I still think Soul burner Petards are the most fun out of the options option. Not necessarily better, but more fun.
That's perfect.
The Soul Burner is definetly the most fun choice but it bumps the Decimator up to almost 200 pts. Thats pretty much for just W8 and T7
Soul Burner is best used in an Epidemius army. Perfect for finishing off that one vehicle that's still holding together after three melta blasts. Otherwise, Butcher Cannon is a beast.
Pretty sure I did. It’s a useful tool for a popular niche army that wants to get complete unit kills, not leave a high T & Sv unit with one model alive or a couple of wounds remaining. In that context, it has particular advantages over the gun that makes the last survivor fail a morale check - which doesn’t feed Epidemius.
lindsay40k wrote: Pretty sure I did. It’s a useful tool for a popular niche army that wants to get complete unit kills, not leave a high T & Sv unit with one model alive or a couple of wounds remaining. In that context, it has particular advantages over the gun that makes the last survivor fail a morale check - which doesn’t feed Epidemius.
Ah, I see.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What's the general consensus for this particular predicament:
Daemons Battalion:
HQ Bloodmaster
Bloodmaster
Troops
30xBloodletters
....
What should I put as troops to fill out the detachment?
1. 2x units of Nurglings for 108pts - Cheap option and gives me board control with infiltration.
2. 2x units of Bloodletters for 140pts - Gives me re-rolls to charge for the battalion and two units that can counter charge alpha strike.
Keeping a pure Khorne detachment appeals to me both from a thematic and situational stand point but guaranteeing a space for my deepstriking units to come down and/or denying enemy deepstriking forces also appeals to me.
A Decimator with dual conversion beamers parked in the far corner of your zone does some good work when daemonforge’d, and can survive a lot longer than a close up version. I used to run double petards but you only get one game before your opponent wises up and focuses it down first every time. It just puts out too much damage to leave such a fragile platform alive.
I have always loved Khorne, and World Eaters armies, and considered to do one. I have grown up with Blood Pact stories, and now, I have just realized that I have tens of Imperial Guards models unplayed, ready to be converted and painted.
Is it possible, from the Chaos Marines codex to play World Eaters (Kharn, beserkers, etc...) + cultists / renegades ?
What would the FW book offers me that the codex wouldn't ?
godardc wrote: I have always loved Khorne, and World Eaters armies, and considered to do one. I have grown up with Blood Pact stories, and now, I have just realized that I have tens of Imperial Guards models unplayed, ready to be converted and painted.
Is it possible, from the Chaos Marines codex to play World Eaters (Kharn, beserkers, etc...) + cultists / renegades ?
What would the FW book offers me that the codex wouldn't ?
Yes, you can play World Eaters with the CSM codex and for the first time since several editions berzerkers are actually a pretty strong choice. In the CSM codex you also get the Cultist option. Cultists are very cheap which makes them a viable unit. However, the World eater trait is used best when you use them for CC with pistol/hand weapon, but I assume your IG troops don't have that loadout.
The renegade rules from FW seem to be widely seen as underwhelming this edition so unless you also want to field IG tanks or heavy weapon teams I'd say field your IG squads as Cultists. It's the best use for them right now, it may change with a new Imperial armour book of course, but my impression is that will take a while as FW has too many projects.
Ok thanks !
IIRC, if I just played a WE batallion and an Imperial Guard batallion (representing the Blood Pact army), I would lost all my armies special rules ?
Yes, as those two detachments don't share a keyword you wouldn't count as battleforged army and therefore don't get access to detachment boni, warlord traits, artefacts or stratagems.
With the FW renegades rules you get access to IG units with the Chaos keyword and can build an army using detachments of the two factions. But I'm not sure how these rules are worded exactly.
It’s an almost entirely different army in the sense that some units are shared (many good ones are not), there are no orders, there’s very little stable leadership (i.e. you roll random leadership for most units, including HQ), and units that should be equivalent and are priced the same as the loyalist versions have worse BS/WS and armor save.
There are cool and fun units, but it isn’t a good army. Play them for the love of the models/background and it will be worthwhile. Playing them and expecting to win will not turn out well much of the time. That said, there are certain units that complement CSM and daemons well. I wouldn’t say the index is worth buying just for Renegades, but if you’re interested in the full range of rules for IG from FW then it is,
If you had your heart set on ig then you could always use the blood angels rules for ye khorne stuff. Death company make pretty good berzerker standins
Has anyone found even mild success in running Berzerkers outside of transports? I'm playing WE in a large points game (3-4k) and I was thinking about bringing a blob of 20 berzerkers to advance up the board with. Is it better to just run them at 9-10 man units for the rhinos? Or in that scale of a game, will they not just be turned to powder turn 1?
If you’re bringing big blobs of foot troops it’s worth bringing along Abaddon just for the fearless bubble he gives to everything chaos. Otherwise 5-10 man squads will work better, won’t get in each other’s way, and will give you more battalions.
A single footslogging blob though? It’s going to die long before reaching anything important without alpha legion shenanigans. You need to go all in on blobs, they’re like spawning salmon swimming upriver. Most will get eaten by bears, so you have to go for quantity.
Latro_ wrote: Have any of you guys tried the hellforged scorpius? was thinking of a bit of no los needed chaffe clearance for my IW army.
Not sure 6d3 is worth 135 pts thou hmmm
oh lawd got the pts wrong thy are like 215pts.. prob not worth it
217pts, dont forget the combi bolter. I run two along with two quad HB rapiers in my own IW army and they do work. They are expensive but they are amazing for applying steady pressure all game.
vaklor4 wrote: Has anyone found even mild success in running Berzerkers outside of transports?
Regardless of the scale of the game I do not see this working outside of Alpha Legion to give them ranged protection and a delivery system. Mine have a challenging enough time surviving as AL.
vaklor4 wrote: Has anyone found even mild success in running Berzerkers outside of transports?
Regardless of the scale of the game I do not see this working outside of Alpha Legion to give them ranged protection and a delivery system. Mine have a challenging enough time surviving as AL.
Yeah, and if you want to do that, you might as well also consider deep striking in bloodletters. Its cheaper and also packs as big a punch as berzerkers. Both are equally fragile, so its the same to me.
Anyone have any good advice on how to run 10 terminators?
I have 12 bodies, 6 power axes, 5 combi bolters, 2 combi flamers, 2 combi meltas, 3 chainfists, 2 power fists, a heavy flamer, and more than enough reaper auto cannons.
I have one termi lord with lighning claws, and one with a combi melta and probably a power sword.
1 of the bodies is probably gonna get turned into a sorcerer.
2 squads of 5? 1 squad of 10? Don't run them at all?
I have 12 bodies, 6 power axes, 5 combi bolters, 2 combi flamers, 2 combi meltas, 3 chainfists, 2 power fists, a heavy flamer, and more than enough reaper auto cannons.
I have one termi lord with lighning claws, and one with a combi melta and probably a power sword.
1 of the bodies is probably gonna get turned into a sorcerer.
2 squads of 5? 1 squad of 10? Don't run them at all?
Decisions decisions...
Thanks in advance.
I’ve recently been running a squad of ten with four Melta, four plasma, two Heavy Flamer, an Icon of Wrath, and a range of melee. They rendezvous with a Sorcerer packing Prescience and Warptime.
My regular meta has come to be dominated by static gunlines, with hardly any screening going on beyond a few mundane Troops.
Turn one they drop, move, get +1 to hit, cripple three units, charge with a re-roll, then burn 3CP on Fury of Khorne for a second round of pile-ins. (The extra strikes aren’t what you pay for, as you’ll by now have possibly run out of units that you declared a charge against. It’s the extra 6”, that can entangle unit’s in CC without eating OW. It’s like Hive Fleet Kraken started wearing TDA. Combine this with enveloping models to deny fallbacks and you’ve killed the enemy’s firepower.)
They’ve been going through it like a wrecking ball through a greenhouse. Sometimes they go so deep into enemy lines, they pin units against the back of the field.
The metagame will adapt to things like this. But if people in your area aren’t used to dealing with DS rushdown, you’ll enjoy a month or two of being Jaws.
If you’re in a pretty balanced and diverse metagame, then this would be a biiiig gamble. A Dark Reapers list will eat it alive.
Chosen now able to take a melee weapon, boltgun, and pistol. Not sure how useful that makes them now but they are a little more flexible and maybe worth a relook. Helbrutes get to dual hammers or scourges, which is neat?
Spoiler:
Page 136 – Chosen, Wargear Options
Change this unit’s wargear options to read:
‘• Any Chosen may take one item from the Melee
Weapons list.
• Up to four Chosen may choose one of the
following options:
• Replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
• Replace his boltgun with one item from the Combiweapons
or Special Weapons lists.
• Replace his boltgun and bolt pistol with a
lightning claw.
• An additional Chosen may replace his boltgun
with one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy
Weapons lists.
• The Chosen Champion may either take one item from
the Melee Weapons list, or replace his boltgun and
bolt pistol with items from the Champion Equipment list.
• One model may take a Chaos Icon (pg 153).’
Page 138 – Helbrute, Wargear Options
Change the third bullet point to read:
‘• This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a
Helbrute hammer or power scourge.’
I have 12 bodies, 6 power axes, 5 combi bolters, 2 combi flamers, 2 combi meltas, 3 chainfists, 2 power fists, a heavy flamer, and more than enough reaper auto cannons.
I have one termi lord with lighning claws, and one with a combi melta and probably a power sword.
1 of the bodies is probably gonna get turned into a sorcerer.
2 squads of 5? 1 squad of 10? Don't run them at all?
Decisions decisions...
Thanks in advance.
I’ve recently been running a squad of ten with four Melta, four plasma, two Heavy Flamer, an Icon of Wrath, and a range of melee. They rendezvous with a Sorcerer packing Prescience and Warptime.
My regular meta has come to be dominated by static gunlines, with hardly any screening going on beyond a few mundane Troops.
Turn one they drop, move, get +1 to hit, cripple three units, charge with a re-roll, then burn 3CP on Fury of Khorne for a second round of pile-ins. (The extra strikes aren’t what you pay for, as you’ll by now have possibly run out of units that you declared a charge against. It’s the extra 6”, that can entangle unit’s in CC without eating OW. It’s like Hive Fleet Kraken started wearing TDA. Combine this with enveloping models to deny fallbacks and you’ve killed the enemy’s firepower.)
They’ve been going through it like a wrecking ball through a greenhouse. Sometimes they go so deep into enemy lines, they pin units against the back of the field.
The metagame will adapt to things like this. But if people in your area aren’t used to dealing with DS rushdown, you’ll enjoy a month or two of being Jaws.
If you’re in a pretty balanced and diverse metagame, then this would be a biiiig gamble. A Dark Reapers list will eat it alive.
Wonderful advice! Thanks so much. Most of the people I play are other CSMs and Orks.
I consider Poxwalkers nerf a bit overwhelming.
They FAQ so I can get them free, I order a lot of miniatures, and just couple month later they FAQ so I can't get them free.
It is a bit too fast paced for modelling hobby.
While this might be good for balance (although I don't see many poxwalker farms in top tiers of the grand tournaments), it is still a bit too swingy.
Fan67 wrote: I consider Poxwalkers nerf a bit overwhelming.
They FAQ so I can get them free, I order a lot of miniatures, and just couple month later they FAQ so I can't get them free.
It is a bit too fast paced for modelling hobby.
While this might be good for balance (although I don't see many poxwalker farms in top tiers of the grand tournaments), it is still a bit too swingy.
every 6 month faq is too frequent...? Really? I agree the nerf is a bit heavy handed but if one considers the beta rules aeldari got clunked too in terms of running soup ynarri deatchments as all the faction keywords need to matchup (no more Dark reaps and Shining spears in same detach) is somewhat in-line (in terms of magnitude).
Chosen now able to take a melee weapon, boltgun, and pistol. Not sure how useful that makes them now but they are a little more flexible and maybe worth a relook. Helbrutes get to dual hammers or scourges, which is neat?
Spoiler:
Page 136 – Chosen, Wargear Options
Change this unit’s wargear options to read:
‘• Any Chosen may take one item from the Melee
Weapons list.
• Up to four Chosen may choose one of the
following options:
• Replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
• Replace his boltgun with one item from the Combiweapons
or Special Weapons lists.
• Replace his boltgun and bolt pistol with a
lightning claw.
• An additional Chosen may replace his boltgun
with one item from the Special Weapons or Heavy
Weapons lists.
• The Chosen Champion may either take one item from
the Melee Weapons list, or replace his boltgun and
bolt pistol with items from the Champion Equipment list.
• One model may take a Chaos Icon (pg 153).’
Page 138 – Helbrute, Wargear Options
Change the third bullet point to read:
‘• This model may replace each Helbrute fist with a
Helbrute hammer or power scourge.’
So what's the best loadout for chosen now, i'm guessing combibolter + chainsword? Though i'm kinda tempted to go all in and put 9 chosen with powersword in a rhino and charge the ennemie!
vaklor4 wrote: Has anyone found even mild success in running Berzerkers outside of transports?
Regardless of the scale of the game I do not see this working outside of Alpha Legion to give them ranged protection and a delivery system. Mine have a challenging enough time surviving as AL.
Yeah, and if you want to do that, you might as well also consider deep striking in bloodletters. Its cheaper and also packs as big a punch as berzerkers. Both are equally fragile, so its the same to me.
Bloodletters are waaaaay more fragile than Berserkers. -1T and -2AS is huge (even if it is invulnerable). With that said, Berserkers get shot up easily.
Put them in Rhinos and take scarier stuff (powerful vehicles and/or monsters).
Captyn_Bob wrote: ... So the rulebook faq has one bombshell. No warptime move if you arrived from reserves that turn.
Where are you seeing this? You can still move after reserve from what i've seen, it's just that if you deployed turn 1 it has to be within your deployment zone.
Captyn_Bob wrote: ... So the rulebook faq has one bombshell. No warptime move if you arrived from reserves that turn.
Where are you seeing this? You can still move after reserve from what i've seen, it's just that if you deployed turn 1 it has to be within your deployment zone.
Captyn_Bob wrote: ... So the rulebook faq has one bombshell. No warptime move if you arrived from reserves that turn.
Where are you seeing this? You can still move after reserve from what i've seen, it's just that if you deployed turn 1 it has to be within your deployment zone.
Captyn_Bob wrote: ... So the rulebook faq has one bombshell. No warptime move if you arrived from reserves that turn.
Where are you seeing this? You can still move after reserve from what i've seen, it's just that if you deployed turn 1 it has to be within your deployment zone.
Captyn_Bob wrote: ... So the rulebook faq has one bombshell. No warptime move if you arrived from reserves that turn.
Where are you seeing this? You can still move after reserve from what i've seen, it's just that if you deployed turn 1 it has to be within your deployment zone.
The rulebook faq. It's just appeared on the list.
Just read that now. FFS GW! CC armies took a massive nerf.
Captyn_Bob wrote: ... So the rulebook faq has one bombshell. No warptime move if you arrived from reserves that turn.
Where are you seeing this? You can still move after reserve from what i've seen, it's just that if you deployed turn 1 it has to be within your deployment zone.
The rulebook faq. It's just appeared on the list.
Just read that now. FFS GW! CC armies took a massive nerf.
Can I get the link for this? I cannot find the rulebook FAQ
Captyn_Bob wrote: ... So the rulebook faq has one bombshell. No warptime move if you arrived from reserves that turn.
Where are you seeing this? You can still move after reserve from what i've seen, it's just that if you deployed turn 1 it has to be within your deployment zone.
Yeah, I'm not seeing a warptime nerf.
It's in the Chaos Index FAQ.
Q: When I manifest the Warptime psychic power, can I select a unit that arrived on the battlefield as reinforcements this turn?
Kharybdis instantly became absolute trash. Thanks for ruining my $200 investment GW...
It either is forced to Turn 1 drop into my deployment... which is absurd, or its giant foot-print ensures from Turn 2 onward it should have almost no decent placement... PLUS it cannot be warp-timed into a remotely useful one.
Absolutely decimated the viability of this one... wow.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Kharybdis instantly became absolute trash. Thanks for ruining my $200 investment GW...
It either is forced to Turn 1 drop into my deployment... which is absurd, or its giant foot-print ensures from Turn 2 onward it should have almost no decent placement... PLUS it cannot be warp-timed into a remotely useful one.
Absolutely decimated the viability of this one... wow.
The rules team definitely overreached on Warptime. Feels like they are trying to limit the impact of alpha strikes and did not consider the impact this rule has on this unit.
I used to use the KAC to drop 20 Noise Marines, and think that's still a viable tactic. HOWEVER, the Warptime nerf means that KAC is now exposed to a turn of shooting.
Forget about what damage it could have done with cc attacks, it just doesn't have the save / wounds to justify costing close to the same as a Land Raider.
I would feel differently about it if the KAC had the Fly keyword for a -1 to hit, but this is ridiculous.
Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or
a Tyrannocyte), can the firing unit shoot at the unit as
it disembarks?
A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/ Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark
We can use it to get a unit of Noise Marines into range of a Dark Reaper castle.
EverlastingNewb wrote: I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.
OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.
EverlastingNewb wrote: I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.
OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.
And Skarbrand... which i just bought.. and painted.. so, i need multiple Herald's to get the old Skarbrand. narf.
I'm still thinking of Alpha striking units that could take the place of oblits, first one that comes to my mind is Myphitic Blight-Haulers. You could effectively deploy three on the line with a jump pack sorc. Move them flat out 10", then warptime them with jump sorc so they get up the field another 10". Then you have 3 multi meltas, and either 3 str 8 -4 d6dmg or 3D6 - 1 dmg shots to help blow up big stuff or chaff. Not to mention you can prescience them to give them 2+ BS.
Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?
Dactylartha wrote: Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?
Certainly looks that way.
Plus side, using God mark keywords as the second common faction keyword means chaos can still soup up a bit.
Dactylartha wrote: Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?
Certainly looks that way.
Plus side, using God mark keywords as the second common faction keyword means chaos can still soup up a bit.
Also, Heretic Astartes for multi-legion detachments with mixed gods.
Q: Can a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought, Hellforged
Deredeo Dreadnought or a Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought
use the Fire Frenzy Stratagem from e.g. Codex: Chaos
Space Marines?
A: No.
Page 19 – Hellforged Spartan Assault Tank, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Daemonic Machine Spirit: This model does not
suffer the penalty to its hit rolls for moving and firing
Heavy weapons.’
Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.
Dactylartha wrote: Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?
Looking at the examples given with Assassins: if you have a CHAOS Warlord, I believe you can have the following army:
CHAOS - HERETIC ASTARTES Battalion
Kharn (CHAOS Warlord), Fabius Bile, 3 Berzerkers units
- Kharn and the Berzerkers still get their WE traits, as Fabius does not break LEGION purity; CSM Stratagems are unlocked
CHAOS - CHAOS DAEMONS Spearhead
Lord of Change, Burning Chariot, Skull Cannon, Exalted Seeker Chariot
- no DEITY purity Loci, but CHAOS DAEMONS Stratagems are unlocked
CHAOS - NURGLE Outriders
Word Bearers Lord on Palanquin (Murder Sword), Death Guard Bloat-drone, Plague Toad unit, Black Legion bikers unit with MoN - the Lord and Bikers can use their LEGION Stratagems due to having a HA detachment in the army, HA Warlord unlocks the HA Relic, the Plague Toads can use CD Stratagems also, but the Bloat-drone doesn't unlock DG Strats and there’s no LEGION or DEITY traits for anyone
CHAOS - FALLEN Vanguard
Cypher, 3 Fallen units
- nothing to note
This and an auxiliary detachment are the only way to fit Fallen into a Battle-forged army. It doesn’t seem to match RAI as to how they don’t affect Detachment purity for LEGION traits, but there you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EverlastingNewb wrote: Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.
EverlastingNewb wrote: I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.
OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.
And Skarbrand... which i just bought.. and painted.. so, i need multiple Herald's to get the old Skarbrand. narf.
EverlastingNewb wrote: Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.
Only 135 points to deal enough damage to kill 1 unit of Cultists within 12 inches. 2 units if you charge a different one after killing the first. Doesn't seem worth it to me. A mixed unit that has two - three dedicated melee models and two - three dedicated ranged models might be better, but still overshadowed by other more specialized (and therefore cheaper) units.
EverlastingNewb wrote: I'm curious why they changed Unstoppable Ferocity, it seems more of a nerf towards Greater Khorne Daemons than Letters & DP's.
OOOOOOOH! I was so confused about this change... like it didn't seem to make a difference. But +1S and +1S for melee weapons are very different when your melee weapon provides x2 user Str. Pft, it was a puny nerf to the Bloodthirster. Thanks for making this comment.
And Skarbrand... which i just bought.. and painted.. so, i need multiple Herald's to get the old Skarbrand. narf.
Buff to mounted units.
So.. Juggernauts. S8 on the charge, S6 if charged. Compared to the loss of S16 on Bloodthirsters & Skarbrand, i dunno. Not that impressive, they're still quite expensive imho.
Dactylartha wrote: Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?
Looking at the examples given with Assassins: if you have a CHAOS Warlord, I believe you can have the following army:
CHAOS - HERETIC ASTARTES Battalion
Kharn (CHAOS Warlord), Fabius Bile, 3 Berzerkers units
- Kharn and the Berzerkers still get their WE traits
CHAOS - CHAOS DAEMONS Spearhead
Lord of Change, Burning Chariot, Skull Cannon, Exalted Seeker Chariot
- no DEITY purity Loci, but CHAOS DAEMONS Stratagems are unlocked
CHAOS - NURGLE Outriders
Word Bearers Lord on Palanquin (Murder Sword), Death Guard Bloat-drone, Plague Toad unit, Black Legion bikers unit with MoN - the Lord and Bikers can use their LEGION Stratagems due to having a HA detachment in the army, HA Warlord unlocks the HA Relic, the Plague Toads can use CD Stratagems also, but the Bloat-drone can’t use DG Strats and there’s no LEGION or DEITY traits
CHAOS - FALLEN Vanguard
Cypher, 3 Fallen units
- nothing to note
This and an auxiliary detachment are the only way to fit Fallen into a Battle-forged army. It doesn’t seem to match RAI as to how they don’t affect Detachment purity for LEGION traits, but there you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EverlastingNewb wrote: Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.
So guess who spent a month on a unit of Breacher Chosen without melee weapons
Oh, well, I can say the shields count as chainswords. They’re only there for the Plasma anyway
I COULD do a list of the sorts (though my Bearers are limited to taking Khorne daemons and/or a DP of any god, based on my inventory), but my concern is that I used the Fallen to fill out an extra slot if I needed some more cheap plasma. I don't want to have to bring all 3 of my units and Cypher because they take up a detachment and don't get to be targeted by strategems or spells. It is fun in small games to have that detachment, but it's no real help when my primary opponents are Necron and Blood Angels. /complaint
- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.
- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on.
Well, and Kharybdis went from a fun/good unit to just absolute trash in an instant. Glad I spent $200+ on it recently...
Alpha legion seems an even more of a must competitively assuming beta rules in effect. Any thoughts on rolling a "value" squad of khorne zerkers in alpha strike? With the new rule some armies may move away from infiltrators which will let the zerkers set up close and tight. If you manage yourself with less drops (everyone is going to be going 2-3 x battalion with the new CP rules) - you can get the charge off easy on the infiltrate and suddenly your opponent has to deal with zerkers (for example my tau friend no longer wants tau sept for overwatch but would rather take the 6 inch extra range). 140ish points plus a CP were a big investment before - but with every army using 13+ CP now - maybe a small gamble with high dividends?
this is what wh40k is now, reason why i almost stopped playing it and the rare times i platìy i use what i have i refuse to buy something which next month become trash
EverlastingNewb wrote: Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.
Only 135 points to deal enough damage to kill 1 unit of Cultists within 12 inches. 2 units if you charge a different one after killing the first. Doesn't seem worth it to me. A mixed unit that has two - three dedicated melee models and two - three dedicated ranged models might be better, but still overshadowed by other more specialized (and therefore cheaper) units.
Combi-bolter/Chainsword. 90 points for 20 shots at 12" and then 3 attacks per model.
Funnily enough this is one of the best melee setups in the Vanilla Loyalist Codex. Let that sink in for a bit...
- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.
Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.
- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.
Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.
Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.
kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)
- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.
Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.
Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.
kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)
is not the same.... before DS units was safer from 1st turn retalations they dropped at 9" fire (if they can) then charge often helped by psyschic powers/special rules/equipments now that is completely (beside genestealer cult) gone,, now if you want charge 1st turn you must put units on table that mean if you go second you might lost them... then good luck
- Cultists and Obliterators - Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw - Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)
One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)
Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.
well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.
Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.
Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.
kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)
is not the same.... before DS units was safer from 1st turn retalations they dropped at 9" fire (if they can) then charge often helped by psyschic powers/special rules/equipments now that is completely (beside genestealer cult) gone,, now if you want charge 1st turn you must put units on table that mean if you go second you might lost them... then good luck
But outside of a few armies. no one can deep strike alpha ether so the only alpha strike left are the long range imperial guard and... what else? (honestly what are people expecting now to deal with) edit quote fail.
Dactylartha wrote: Battle Brothers (Beta rules) makes you have to have a 2nd faction keyword to add to a list; however, Fallen only have the CHAOS, IMPERIUM, and FALLEN keywords. Can they no longer be added to existing detachments? Does this mean you can only take Fallen as a vanguard with Cypher and 3 units of Fallen?
Looking at the examples given with Assassins: if you have a CHAOS Warlord, I believe you can have the following army:
CHAOS - HERETIC ASTARTES Battalion
Kharn (CHAOS Warlord), Fabius Bile, 3 Berzerkers units
- Kharn and the Berzerkers still get their WE traits
CHAOS - CHAOS DAEMONS Spearhead
Lord of Change, Burning Chariot, Skull Cannon, Exalted Seeker Chariot
- no DEITY purity Loci, but CHAOS DAEMONS Stratagems are unlocked
CHAOS - NURGLE Outriders
Word Bearers Lord on Palanquin (Murder Sword), Death Guard Bloat-drone, Plague Toad unit, Black Legion bikers unit with MoN - the Lord and Bikers can use their LEGION Stratagems due to having a HA detachment in the army, HA Warlord unlocks the HA Relic, the Plague Toads can use CD Stratagems also, but the Bloat-drone can’t use DG Strats and there’s no LEGION or DEITY traits
CHAOS - FALLEN Vanguard
Cypher, 3 Fallen units
- nothing to note
This and an auxiliary detachment are the only way to fit Fallen into a Battle-forged army. It doesn’t seem to match RAI as to how they don’t affect Detachment purity for LEGION traits, but there you go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EverlastingNewb wrote: Chosen having access to both melee & range weapons is good, probably not competitive but finally they're not bad havocs & the 2/3 attacks aren't 'wasted'.
So guess who spent a month on a unit of Breacher Chosen without melee weapons
Oh, well, I can say the shields count as chainswords. They’re only there for the Plasma anyway
I COULD do a list of the sorts (though my Bearers are limited to taking Khorne daemons and/or a DP of any god, based on my inventory), but my concern is that I used the Fallen to fill out an extra slot if I needed some more cheap plasma. I don't want to have to bring all 3 of my units and Cypher because they take up a detachment and don't get to be targeted by strategems or spells. It is fun in small games to have that detachment, but it's no real help when my primary opponents are Necron and Blood Angels. /complaint
Oh, I agree, it’s not an ideal fix by any means and it’s certainly going to create problems for a lot of perfectly fluffy lists. (Especially given the explicit ‘Fallen and Cypher don’t break LEGION purity’ rule.)
Imperium players are going to have similar issues. It’s going to be an Execution Force or nothing, for some Assassin fans. But! Don’t forget: you can pay a CP - of which more are available, if you dig Battalions - to take an Auxiliary Detachment. Again, not an ideal fix. Certainly not if you’re doing an event list with restrictions on number of Detachments. But it is a way that a solo ‘wildcard’ unit can be fielded, and it’s a compromise that I suspect will mainly be taken up by corpse-botherers who really like a lone Inquisitor (seriously, their list is now a train wreck) or Vindicare.
It’s also an option if one wants to take a single Daemon character for an aura to benefit their Daemon Astartes units, for instance a Herald on Steed of Slaanesh to run alongside Maulerfiends and let them charge after advancing. (The Warptime nerf puts a new light on this trick.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here’s what the changes to Chosen mean:
- approaching parity with Veterans and Wolf Guard as a melee unit, if you ignore the lack of access to storm shields and jump packs; still, as a counter-charge unit, a load of 2A power axes isn’t terrible
- EC access to Chainaxes, if your quartermaster is a miser who won’t let you take power axes
- your combi-plasma squad just got +1A each for free, I mean, come on, that’s not terrible, sure you’re not using them to Leroy Jenkins a gunline but if you have a bad turn then you’ll give a counter unit a bigger nosebleed
)
