Does the heretic astartes codex have anything that can clear screens quickly to let a defiled maul the juicy stuff that's likely bubble wrapped, like their tanks?
macluvin wrote: Does the heretic astartes codex have anything that can clear screens quickly to let a defiled maul the juicy stuff that's likely bubble wrapped, like their tanks?
Not really but I know a certain flyer made of resin who just got a points drop and chews through chaff like a beaver chews through a lumberjack's leg.
blackmage wrote: when codex chaos has obliterators, anything else isn't worth enough, what obly's gives nothing else can so...
Spoiler:
In all seriousness: yes Oblits are the best mid-ranged shooting you could ever ask for, but they only mesh well with certain Legions that can make good use of their shooting and stratagems. I wouldn't take them in my World Eaters army, but I would take Flamer Bikes to deal with bubble wrap.
daemonix wrote: Do the Chaos Bikers come with upgrades for the bikes? all the site says is that they come with Combi-Bolters for the bikes.
You mean on the sprues? They come with nothing by combi-bolters for the bikes. Anything else you'll need to get elsewhere, which is kind of lame but what can you do. This is also one of the most important kits to pin or magnetize because flamer bikes today might want to be melta bikes tomorrow.
daemonix wrote: Where would you get parts from then? Are they just normal guns swapped out or is there certain kits with the parts needed?
Uuuhhhh well what do you want to do? Do you want to replace the Combi-bolters on the bike or do you want your boi holding a weapon? I can tell you right now: it is far easier to keep the combi-bolters on the bikes and just put on an arm holding the weapon. The ones attached to the bikes are made to do that, and the bike is cut so they can do that, so swapping them out makes it look weird.
You just kit the rider out like you would kit out any other boi. Example of both options:
Spoiler:
Edit: You asked where you get the parts. The answer: any other kit that has the parts. Or ebay. Or the swap shop on dakka dakka (where I got my parts + the bikes).
smegma_crunch wrote: Any suggestions for shooting units to back up blood slaughterers and daemon princes?
Assuming you're running World Eaters: Bikes have some great mid-close range shooting. Havocs with ML or LC are pretty good but pricey. Then you got CSM with one Heavy Weapon holding the backfield. You could also go with Oblits but that's a waste with the legion trait. Land Raiders deal out some good damage while rolling up your bois. Termis can dish out some damage before rolling into melee.
I know i'll get called a filthy casual...But what if I want to run mono-god? I love Khorne as a theme, and never go to tournaments. Mark of Khorne may be useless on Havocs, but dang it, blood for the blood god!
vaklor4 wrote: I know i'll get called a filthy casual...But what if I want to run mono-god? I love Khorne as a theme, and never go to tournaments. Mark of Khorne may be useless on Havocs, but dang it, blood for the blood god!
I, too, care not to win games!
Nah just kidding; you can totally Mark of Khorne Havocs. They're just CSM that can take special weapons and don't have the extra attack Chosen have. Give em some Plasma / Flamers and shove em in a Rhino! If you're looking for long ranged firepower like Missles or Las, Khorne is kinda wasted on them even for funsies unless you're putting Kharn in the middle of three units of them.
vaklor4 wrote: I know i'll get called a filthy casual...But what if I want to run mono-god? I love Khorne as a theme, and never go to tournaments. Mark of Khorne may be useless on Havocs, but dang it, blood for the blood god!
Being a casual player isn't the problem, it's whether your opponent is casual. The problem with Khorne is the lack of psychic powers and ranged support you have, without which your opponent is going to run rings around you and you just won't have fun.
I run a primary Khorne detachment with a secondary Night Lords detachment so that I can take some sorcerers. Thematically I'm not as happy with my list but games are a lot more fun when you actually have a chance of winning.
daemonix wrote: Where would you get parts from then? Are they just normal guns swapped out or is there certain kits with the parts needed?
Glue a flamer or melta from a normal kit in place of one of the bolters that comes with the bike, easy peasy (or magnetize it, better bet)
You actually have to replace the whole combi-bolter. Not a big deal, but for the WYSI OCD obsessed like me, I never liked having a single bolter modeled there that ran out of ammo...
it is exactly why i just lose the CC weapon and put the meltas on the side of the bike or on the riders back. Plus,an extra 4 bolter shots never hurt. With my loyalist Biker list I capitalize on all the shooting they can with their Combis, Plasma, and combi-plasma. 20 shots for 3 bikes.
smegma_crunch wrote: Any suggestions for shooting units to back up blood slaughterers and daemon princes?
If you want something to complement blood slaughters and daemon princes, I would suggest a Khorne lord of skulls. Its very fluffy in a world eaters army since its a khorne daemon engine. It is a huge fire magnet as it charges up the field moving 10 inches a turn. If you use the hades gratling cannon. its very shooty. that's 12 shots of str 8-2 ap, flat 2 damage per shot just from that hades cannon alone. Also, its a daemon engine. so you can use the strategem daemon forge on it. for just 1 cp, you get to reroll all to hit and to wound on your shooting for 1 turn as you roll up the field. One round of shooting from a khorne lord of skulls with a hades cannon can melt a lot of stuff.
In fact, if you need shooting to complement your Khrone army, but want to stay true to Khorne. One lord of skulls and two Defilers would be good. A defiler is really scary in combat, and it packs a lot more shooting than say a Maulerfiend. It is also pretty resilient. Use the strategem that allows your defiler to move and shoot without penalty to its heavy weapons. Then use demon forge on your lord of skulls and surprise, you can actually have a pretty decent shooting phase. And when these three daemon engines get into melee range, they can wreck face in the name of Khorne just fine. You won't outshoot a devoted shooty list, but your melee strength will be a lot stronger than those types of lists.
Guys if building mono khorne CSM/khorne daemons, how does one build in psychic defense outside of the brass collar and maybe a unit or two of flesh hounds?
Am I missing something?
Ratius wrote: Guys if building mono khorne CSM/khorne daemons, how does one build in psychic defense outside of the brass collar and maybe a unit or two of flesh hounds?
Am I missing something?
Karanak, deamon prince or lord with brass collar, and flesh hounds are pretty much it. But they can be quite effective.
Ratius wrote: Guys if building mono khorne CSM/khorne daemons, how does one build in psychic defense outside of the brass collar and maybe a unit or two of flesh hounds?
Am I missing something?
Karanak, deamon prince or lord with brass collar, and flesh hounds are pretty much it. But they can be quite effective.
Someone with the brass collar is a great deterrent, you also get 1 deny from the stratagem, and then there's Zhufor as well. You can't completely shut down powers but you can reduce their effectiveness. Chaff is also a great way to soak up Smites: Cultists or Chaos Spawn are fantastic Smite soakers. Hopefully the Deamons codex coming soon will give Khorne Deamons some more ways to mess with psychic powers, either through artifacts or Khorne's god trait.
Still holding out hope for some kind of anti-psychic locus, but this is pretty good. Rerolling charging Warp Talons and Mutilators anyone? No more Icon needed on Possessed. Deamon Engines (Keywords Deamon and Khorne) rerolling charge distance. Summoned Deamons more likely to make it into combat!!!
macluvin wrote: Does the heretic astartes codex have anything that can clear screens quickly to let a defiled maul the juicy stuff that's likely bubble wrapped, like their tanks?
Noise Marines are possibly the best screenwipe unit in the entire game. Throw a handful of buffs at them and you've deleted dozens of cannon fodder.
Bonus: spray Blastmaster mini-krak missiles everywhere whilst you're at it. And if they return fire, they're gifting you extra chances to finish the stragglers before your next movement phase.
Mod an arm? The ITC is pretty lenient about "counts as" as long as:
A) You are constant
B) You aren't modeling for advantage
C) The model is the same size / shape as the original
So if you take a cannon or something large and modify it within reason, you should be fine. You can always ask Reece in the below thread about specifics, but if you follow the above rules you will generally be fine.
Eldarain wrote: Leaving the points aside to summon keeps your allegiance intact. Drop a cheap jump pack sorceror or Lord into cover and bring em in later.
Better to incorporate them. Drop in a Dreadclaw of Noise Marines, Warptime it into a load of units and Prescience them... they are, after all, the sort of thing that a tarpit unit wants to engage, Summoning a Daemon unit could make sense.
But of course this is all contingent on Summoning remaining as ultra-situational as it is now
Also, some flexibility in choosing what you want to summon.
If you really want to go the distance, make an unmarked dude-then you can use the stratagem to jump to whoever god you need for that match and get the very spesific daemons you want.
All while being a CSM detachment of some flavor (alphas mostly. they are just the go-to.)
BoomWolf wrote: Also, some flexibility in choosing what you want to summon.
If you really want to go the distance, make an unmarked dude-then you can use the stratagem to jump to whoever god you need for that match and get the very spesific daemons you want.
All while being a CSM detachment of some flavor (alphas mostly. they are just the go-to.)
Unmarked charecters can summon from any God they want they don't need to use the stratagem to switch.
So I was thinking of getting a Leviathan and/or Contemotor for my World Eaters army and I was wondering what to equip them with? I mainly go against Eldar and Marines.
Solosam47 wrote: How have people been running EC armies? Namely noise marines as I am having trouble deciding if I should go 5 man or 10 with them.
Also what is a decent counter assault unit with chaos now? I am looking for something to baby sit noise marines that footslog.
Berserkers, but that doesn't work if you're EC.
Um... Spawn aren't BAD, I think. Helbrutes?
The Helbrute with Scourge, Fist & Flamer looks like a pretty flexible CC build... though if it's for counter cc, a decent ranged weapon makes sense for those turns you're not getting stuck in.
daemonix wrote: Where would you get parts from then? Are they just normal guns swapped out or is there certain kits with the parts needed?
Glue a flamer or melta from a normal kit in place of one of the bolters that comes with the bike, easy peasy (or magnetize it, better bet)
OMG ZID! Your back! I haven't seen you since your 6th ed hiatus. Hows it going? Still playing DE and CD mostly?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Solosam47 wrote: How have people been running EC armies? Namely noise marines as I am having trouble deciding if I should go 5 man or 10 with them.
Also what is a decent counter assault unit with chaos now? I am looking for something to baby sit noise marines that footslog.
Noise boys don't need a babysitter. Seriously, they don't lol. You can kill most things in combat if they survive overwatch. Give the champ a doom siren and call it good. That said, I field sonic hellbrutes which I can counter assault with should I need to, until then they mince things with 2d3 battlecanon shots all game.
I have run 20 NM in one lump but I think your best bet is breaking it into 2 units unless your alpha legion ( I run EC for thematic reasons) since they can drop mid field and even if they get shot you can shoot on your way out. It's win big lose big though, you get first turn and you may as well shake hands then and there. Not much can handle 120 shots hitting on 2's (prescience) rerolling 1's from a lord and wounding with +1 do to VOTLW. You can split fire all over the board and just ruin your opponent who then has the task of removing them without dying to music of the apocalypse.
Without alpha legion you can be out-ranged turn 1 though, so I have decided to go for 10 man units with rhinos to keep them alive and make the game fun for my opponent lol.
Yeah I was looking at units that were not Helbrutes cause I’m converting mine to be sonic dreads. Although a dedicated cc helbrute would be hardy to sit n cover my line.
Looking at it though I am leaning 10 man, also just noticed in a 10 man you can have 2 blastmaster which is awesome! For awhile I was only taking 1.
How are possessed or chosen in cc? Any possible good loadouts?
Solosam47 wrote: Yeah I was looking at units that were not Helbrutes cause I’m converting mine to be sonic dreads. Although a dedicated cc helbrute would be hardy to sit n cover my line.
Looking at it though I am leaning 10 man, also just noticed in a 10 man you can have 2 blastmaster which is awesome! For awhile I was only taking 1.
How are possessed or chosen in cc? Any possible good loadouts?
Is Lucius or Fabius any good?
Possessed are meh.
Chosen are meh.
Lucius is I don't know, never played him.
Fabius is nice.
Solosam47 wrote: Yeah I was looking at units that were not Helbrutes cause I’m converting mine to be sonic dreads. Although a dedicated cc helbrute would be hardy to sit n cover my line.
Looking at it though I am leaning 10 man, also just noticed in a 10 man you can have 2 blastmaster which is awesome! For awhile I was only taking 1.
How are possessed or chosen in cc? Any possible good loadouts?
Is Lucius or Fabius any good?
Have we covered FW stuff yet? Soulburner fists Contemptor is scary. The drop pods are great.
A big Cultists horde is solid, access to Tide of Traitors is great.
Daemon Princes are great, nice wide footprint on an aura that’s got great NM synergy.
Havocs are lovely, Predators can work as well.
Check out Steed of Slaanesh characters in the Index, that mobility on a Murder Sword or Death Hex is really handy. In a fortnight, we’ll know if their Chaos Daemons synergy is cancelled or improved.
daemonix wrote: Where would you get parts from then? Are they just normal guns swapped out or is there certain kits with the parts needed?
Glue a flamer or melta from a normal kit in place of one of the bolters that comes with the bike, easy peasy (or magnetize it, better bet)
OMG ZID! Your back! I haven't seen you since your 6th ed hiatus. Hows it going? Still playing DE and CD mostly?
Hey there Red! Its going well bud, got stationed out in North Carolina, I played Warmahordes for about 2 years (after the disaster that was 6th crushed my will for 40k...) then quit it after I found out how WAAC that damn game was, had a guy cheat during a tourney and when I called it out the TO basically said "What was done cannot be undone, sorry you lost". Cost me my 3rd place finish and turned me off that game lol. Played Board Games exclusively for almost 3 years, and now back 40k'in. Started Death Guard/CSM/Daemons again, as they were always my favs even back then.
Add me as a friend bud, nice to see familiar faces! I'll start posting Batt-Reps again soon
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: As soons as Chaos Daemon codex is out i'm trying EC Possessed with an Herald. D3 S6 attack who can advance and charge should be fun.
Or a Decimator instead of Possessed.
This does sound interesting, with the daemons codex coming out soon I am curious about running a detachment of them to be my counter cc unit in the back.
Regarding Dreadclaws, what do you think is better to drop from one:
A.) Berzerkers, either one unit of 10 or 2 units of 5
or
B.) A dual soulburner Contemptor
I'm inclined to go with A, because they can use an Icon of Wrath and hopefully get the charge off. However, the Contemptor will inflict 2D3 mortal wounds guaranteed (Hitting on a 2+, so not "guaranteed" but close enough).
A.) Berzerkers, either one unit of 10 or 2 units of 5
or
B.) A dual soulburner Contemptor
I'm inclined to go with A, because they can use an Icon of Wrath and hopefully get the charge off. However, the Contemptor will inflict 2D3 mortal wounds guaranteed (Hitting on a 2+, so not "guaranteed" but close enough).
For champions missions a unit of 9 zerkers (10 is free points for opponent) is better, also a contemptor with soulburner petards puts out twice the number of MW for like 30 points less,
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: As soons as Chaos Daemon codex is out i'm trying EC Possessed with an Herald. D3 S6 attack who can advance and charge should be fun.
Or a Decimator instead of Possessed.
You can do that right now with the renegate trait.
@NM babysitter: Chaos Lord with either fist+combi plasma or twin claws. Cheap reroll+decent beatstick
Can Noise Marines fire if they die in CC? An opponent recently played it that way against me and I've not looked in the book recently enough to remember if there was anything specific about the shooting phase in there.
jbeil wrote: Can Noise Marines fire if they die in CC? An opponent recently played it that way against me and I've not looked in the book recently enough to remember if there was anything specific about the shooting phase in there.
- Either shot the enemy squad engaged in CC with them with bolt or plasma pistol (for the champ)
- Or shot another unit at range, not engaged in CC with whatever weapon
So I have a question, with the new Rumors showing that the Changling will become irrelevent and lose its -1 to hit for tzeentch. I wanted to ask which fast attack option would be more viable, Raptors or bikers for capturing objectives?
Blueguy203 wrote: So I have a question, with the new Rumors showing that the Changling will become irrelevent and lose its -1 to hit for tzeentch. I wanted to ask which fast attack option would be more viable, Raptors or bikers for capturing objectives?
i will never understand why Gw is so extreme, first changeling was almost broken now become almost useless, no sense.
Blueguy203 wrote: So I have a question, with the new Rumors showing that the Changling will become irrelevent and lose its -1 to hit for tzeentch. I wanted to ask which fast attack option would be more viable, Raptors or bikers for capturing objectives?
Well, Raptors, because they can drop anywhere on the board. You can drop them on an objective so long as there's not an enemy unit on it.
Bikers are nice, in their own way, but don't really have that kind of maneuverability.
The best objective grabber IMO is cultists with Tide of Traitors. I use that Stratagem turns 3 and 4 to grab objectives in just about every game.
Blueguy203 wrote: So I have a question, with the new Rumors showing that the Changling will become irrelevent and lose its -1 to hit for tzeentch. I wanted to ask which fast attack option would be more viable, Raptors or bikers for capturing objectives?
Well, Raptors, because they can drop anywhere on the board. You can drop them on an objective so long as there's not an enemy unit on it.
Bikers are nice, in their own way, but don't really have that kind of maneuverability.
The best objective grabber IMO is cultists with Tide of Traitors. I use that Stratagem turns 3 and 4 to grab objectives in just about every game.
How many cultists and in what size are you bringing? I tried running 40 but they didn't do much for me and I was considering taking them MSU instead.
Blueguy203 wrote: So I have a question, with the new Rumors showing that the Changling will become irrelevent and lose its -1 to hit for tzeentch. I wanted to ask which fast attack option would be more viable, Raptors or bikers for capturing objectives?
Well, Raptors, because they can drop anywhere on the board. You can drop them on an objective so long as there's not an enemy unit on it.
Bikers are nice, in their own way, but don't really have that kind of maneuverability.
The best objective grabber IMO is cultists with Tide of Traitors. I use that Stratagem turns 3 and 4 to grab objectives in just about every game.
How many cultists and in what size are you bringing? I tried running 40 but they didn't do much for me and I was considering taking them MSU instead.
Right now, 3 squads of 30 with autoguns and MoS. They each take a lot of wounds the first couple turns, then I move them up field to get back to full strength and ambush something standing near an objective.
Each can do 120 shots a turn at 12 inches with the Endless Cacophony stratagem. That's more than enough to deal with most infantry. I've played a couple games where I put all the cultists in the same space on the table to create a strong firing point.
I get your point about smaller squads and have had a couple games where the Cultists did not work out as well as I had hoped. But, in general, I am finding the larger shooting squad is better than other configurations because your opponent is going to shoot up large blobs on Cultists that will come back. Anything you can do to make an opponent waste effort is a good thing.
With Daemonic access to a Deep Strike Stratagem, Word Bearers Stratagem is looking more and more like a gimmick of use only outside of Matched Play. If I’m going to spend a CP trying to drop in my KoS or GUO or a horde unit, I may as well pay another one to let it take a Relic, fill out a Detachment, not be denied by a bad re-roll, not have it’s landing zone tied to a character, not have to muck around with Reinforcement Points, not force a CSM character to have to stand still...
lindsay40k wrote: With Daemonic access to a Deep Strike Stratagem, Word Bearers Stratagem is looking more and more like a gimmick of use only outside of Matched Play. If I’m going to spend a CP trying to drop in my KoS or GUO or a horde unit, I may as well pay another one to let it take a Relic, fill out a Detachment, not be denied by a bad re-roll, not have it’s landing zone tied to a character, not have to muck around with Reinforcement Points, not force a CSM character to have to stand still...
Summoning really does suck, there's no question about that. With the new Daemonic Loci, I can't see a reason to take Daemons outside a detachment. The opportunity to summon them to the battlefield doesn't appeal to any players I know.
On the flip side, summoning does bypass the detachment limit, so if you really want some extra daemons without polluting your pure detachments, it's a way to do it.
Captyn_Bob wrote: On the flip side, summoning does bypass the detachment limit, so if you really want some extra daemons without polluting your pure detachments, it's a way to do it.
This is how I do it, too. Additionally it gives flexibility for summoning rolls.
In my mixed WE/NL army, I have 100 pts set aside for Khorne summoning from Kharn or the Exalted Champ. That 100 pts gets me ideally 12 Bloodletters w/icon if I roll 8 or more, or 8 Furies if I roll a 6 or 7, or 5 Flesh Hounds with a bad roll of 5.
Yeah, this Codex looks set to be adding opportunity costs to Summnoning, not making it more viable. Oh, great, I can burn a CP to roll an extra dice for it - add that to my Word Bearers Stratagem, and not moving a character gives me an ok-ish chance of Summoning in a Bloodthirster with a small landing zone and no pregame upgrades.
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but I finally figured out the reason that I haven't been having any luck with my Berzerkers. I've been playing them as Strength 4! Their base Strength is 5. I feel like such an idiot, as that has cost me games.
Read your rules and stats, kids. I'm just glad I figured it out before Adepticon so I can plan accordingly.
ZergSmasher wrote: Perhaps a bit off-topic, but I finally figured out the reason that I haven't been having any luck with my Berzerkers. I've been playing them as Strength 4! Their base Strength is 5. I feel like such an idiot, as that has cost me games.
Read your rules and stats, kids. I'm just glad I figured it out before Adepticon so I can plan accordingly.
Add chain axes to the and they are str 6. Even plauge marines don't like axe beserkers.
With regard to the 99% certainty that DAEMON units can burn CP to deep strike, I’ll invite Death Guard players in particular to note that a Sorcerer or Lord on Daemonic Steed has the DAEMON keyword...
(DG of course particularly benefitting from the RAW interpretation that a Palanquin Sorcerer has access to Warptime, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Prescience... have fun, Morty!)
Both lists I went against were low model mount elite armies. He charged his Sanguinary Guard and Deathwatch into my Flesh Hounds, then my Characters rolled in and mopped him up. His Thousand Sons were low model count and couldn't stop my advance, so I surrounded all his units turn 2 and he called it. The Bloodletter Bomb in reserve + 3D6 move wiped out anything it went against. The Blood Slaughterers are amazing if they make it into combat. The Rhinos of Berzerkers never made it in because the Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds did all the work for me, plus my Deamon Prince.
I'll be facing Nids and a more focused Blood Angels list next Sunday. Should be interesting.
Slaanesh keeps getting amazing Daemon prince builds, i'd argue that (other than the primarchs) Slaanesh has the 2 best daemon princes. Intoxicating Elixir claw prince is a proven beast, but how does it stack up to the new comer the soulstealer prince ?
Intoxicating Elixir claw: prince 8 str 8, ap-2, D2 attacks hitting on 2+ with re-roll to hit.
Also has access to legion tactics except world eater's some of which are amazing like the alpha legions like -1 to hit vs range attacks that are more than 12 inch away.
vs
Soulstealer prince: 4 str 8, ap-3, D3 attacks hitting on 2+ with re-roll to hit, where every lethal blow gives the prince a wound back. (also gets 1 str7, ap-2, D1 attack)
Effectively has both the emperor's children and renegade's legion tactics at the same time, but it can never have any others, if it is the warlord it can get some really dope warlord traits like +3 inch movement or +d3 attacks on the charge or -1 attack aura for enemies within 3.
I think the Elixir prince actually gets 8 attacks since the relic gives him +1. One thing that I think really helps him do well is casting Diabolic Strength on himself, buffing him to 9 S10 AP-2 D2 attacks that hit on 2+ rerollable.
Soulstealer does seem like an interesting idea, but for that regenerating wound thing to work he actually has to kill models, meaning he's relegated to fighting nothing stronger than Marines really. He'll rape Primaris guys pretty hard, but he won't kill many vehicles due to simply not having enough attacks. Elixir prince has enough attacks to actually threaten any non-Titanic vehicle short of a Land Raider or Repulsor, and even those might go down a tier. He can even put the hurt on Magnus/Morty since he gets so many attacks some of them will get through the saves. He won't survive the return swings, but neither would the Soulstealer. This is in addition to the large number of attacks being very good against MEQ and even T5 infantry (since he's S10 with the Diabolic Strength buff).
Now, if Daemons have a good way to give a prince more attacks, the Soulstealer could be very good, but 4 attacks just seem like they only go so far. I'd rather have more attacks than regenerating wounds, which do nothing if the prince hasn't even taken any damage yet.
I am liking the idea of the bloodletter bomb. Its an immediate threat to shooty type lists. Even if you charge into their bubble wrap, the attacks of the bloodletters are likely to clear away the bubble wrap.
So, shooty armies have no good choices after that. They either now have to spend their shooting on your blood letters, which have a 5++ anyway, which also means less shooting on your other units. Or they ignore your bloodletters in favour of shooting your other more valuable units. But you ignore a big unit of bloodletters at your own peril, because in close combat, those troops are nasty!
ZergSmasher wrote: I think the Elixir prince actually gets 8 attacks since the relic gives him +1. One thing that I think really helps him do well is casting Diabolic Strength on himself, buffing him to 9 S10 AP-2 D2 attacks that hit on 2+ rerollable.
Soulstealer does seem like an interesting idea, but for that regenerating wound thing to work he actually has to kill models, meaning he's relegated to fighting nothing stronger than Marines really. He'll rape Primaris guys pretty hard, but he won't kill many vehicles due to simply not having enough attacks. Elixir prince has enough attacks to actually threaten any non-Titanic vehicle short of a Land Raider or Repulsor, and even those might go down a tier. He can even put the hurt on Magnus/Morty since he gets so many attacks some of them will get through the saves. He won't survive the return swings, but neither would the Soulstealer. This is in addition to the large number of attacks being very good against MEQ and even T5 infantry (since he's S10 with the Diabolic Strength buff).
Now, if Daemons have a good way to give a prince more attacks, the Soulstealer could be very good, but 4 attacks just seem like they only go so far. I'd rather have more attacks than regenerating wounds, which do nothing if the prince hasn't even taken any damage yet.
I haven't played in so long I thought duel talons where +2 attacks not +3 lol
The soulstealer prince can cast hysterical frenzy himself so he can attack during the psychic phase, but that requires him to be locked in combat lol.
Chaos Daemons Faction Focus wrote:Excitingly, unlike previous editions, these Loci affect every single Daemon unit in your detachment, including your Greater Daemons!
This opens the door to some interesting combinations.
Example:
Tzeentch Vanguard:
Herald on Disc
Flamers
Flamers
Exalted Flamer
Khorne Outriders:
Herald on Juggernaut
Flesh Hounds
Flesh Hounds
Furies
Chaos Daemons Battalion:
Tzeentch Daemon Prince
Bloodthirster of Losing The Good Hairbrush
30 Pink Horrors
20 Bloodletters
9 Brimstone, 1 Blue
If the preview wasn’t a typo, everything in that army can benefit from Loci, with no tax units. We might well have some creative options to get around ‘I’m not buying and painting sixty ruddy Daemonettes’.
I had a stray thought after playing my World Eaters + Khorne Daemons. My Berzerker boxes couldn't fit too well with the 20 Flesh Hounds, 2x10 Bloodletters, 10 Cultists, Blood Slaughterers, and the remaining Characters in my deployment zone, so they ended up on the edges of the deployment zone. I almost feel like, and this may be heresy, dropping the Rhinos completely, taking smaller units of Zerkers, and taking Bikes for some mid-ranged flanking. The Flesh Hounds, characters, and slaughterers all rush forward, and the Bloodletter aren't far behind. The Berzerkers could then be back-mid field deep strike counter or even a second / third wave assault.
McGibs wrote: No locus even though they're all "Khorne daemons"?
Or does a mark of chaos not count as a faction keyword?
The Daemons in the Codex have the Faction Keyword: Daemons. CSM do not have the Faction Keyword: Daemons. This means that a detachment of CSM and Daemons is not Battle Forged, nor can characters have Locus, nor can the CSM have a Legion Trait. Just because keywords are all treated equally after the game begins doesn't mean it gets around the above.
Now that we can deepstrike primarchs (if there is a daemon detachment) what are the best units to clear chaffe?
Can we revisit briefly what best ranged anti-horde is point/damage now that deathguard, CSM and daemon codex are out (or soon to be)? Smite spam used to have some traction but with beta rules appears out.
Anything besides mass troops which works well? With horde spam being all the rage it seems only way to counter is with hordes (or khorne berzerkers). Khorne berzerks make me nervous because if you go first in alpha strike = boss but if you go second they are either going to get shot off if placed aggressively (useless and CP used) or will be footslogging it from somewhere downtown where again likely will have 0 impact (not being in rhino etc.).
Flamers come to mind but seem difficult to get into position and haven't seen many higher end competitive lists run (That I am familiar with)
Grenades are decent and some lists seem to run CSM with one or two power weps but again difficult to get in position turn 1 to 2
Troop blob seems mandatory and otherwise very difficult to counter using ITC scoring?
Flamers can pump out a ton of efficient shots per model, does that count? Bikers can drop 12 bolter shots and two flamers for under 100 points. Foetid Bloat Drones get work done. That's what springs to mind.
Saving some room for flamers of tzeentch might be handy with their twelve inch pistol flamers. If a Herald is nearby they become strength 5 and there's the +1 to wound spell as well which means you'd be wounding on 2s against t4 making them quite nasty. Kind of a significant investment in terms of points and CP though.
Hello fellow heretics. New Chaos player here, just starting out with a box of CSMs sitting in my lap. I want to build a Black Legion army with a slight focus on Khorne (but eventually expanding to other Chaos gods as I see fit.)
Any tips for do's-and-don'ts when it comes to equipping your marines? I got 12 I can make (couple extra that my boyfriend has and doesn't need anymore) and I was planning on doing 6 with Bolters, Plasma, and Combi-Plas, and the other 6 with BP & CS, Flamer, and Combi-Flamer. Does that sound like an okay start to cover my bases? I will definitely be magnetizing my special weapons and Champions.
I realize without a list this isn't much to go on, but I just wanted to hear what you all think about the marines anyway!
In general, bolt pistol and chainsword chaos marines are not worth taking this edition as khorne berserkers do the job much better for only 3-4 pts/model more. You're better off running them all with bolters right now. Bolters will allow your marines to grab some cover and potentially survive for longer as power armor doesn't really stop them from getting shot off the table. Also, if you're planning on running black legion you can take advantage of the run and gun legion trait. Even if you want to mess around with flamers they are assault weapons so the advance and shoot trait works out.
I think Noise Marines are still pretty much the best unit in the game when it comes to horde clearance? Dropping twenty in a Kharybdis, giving them Prescience and the KAC Warptime, leaves a huge hole in the enemy lines for shock troops to,run into.
Tzeentch Flamers look like a...moderately viable alternative. 12” fire is getting people drooling, but their Power Levels make for CP-inefficient deep strikes and unreliable Summoning, and their speed and Pistol typing means a screen can safely deploy 24.1” away.
Both units have their pluses. Flamers will punish a retaliatory banzai charge, hard. Green tide is practically playing into their hands. 2W means they might draw some heavy firepower away from our big stuff. Noise Marines get to shoot again when the enemy kill them, which is a massive psyop. Both units want 3CP spent on them and a HQ babysitter for maximum output.
Heavy Bolter Rapiers are probably our other option. A lot of gun for a modest price. (Convert Kataphrons to show mercy on your purse.)
lindsay40k wrote: I think Noise Marines are still pretty much the best unit in the game when it comes to horde clearance? Dropping twenty in a Kharybdis, giving them Prescience and the KAC Warptime, leaves a huge hole in the enemy lines for shock troops to,run into.
Tzeentch Flamers look like a...moderately viable alternative. 12” fire is getting people drooling, but their Power Levels make for CP-inefficient deep strikes and unreliable Summoning, and their speed and Pistol typing means a screen can safely deploy 24.1” away.
Both units have their pluses. Flamers will punish a retaliatory banzai charge, hard. Green tide is practically playing into their hands. 2W means they might draw some heavy firepower away from our big stuff. Noise Marines get to shoot again when the enemy kill them, which is a massive psyop. Both units want 3CP spent on them and a HQ babysitter for maximum output.
Heavy Bolter Rapiers are probably our other option. A lot of gun for a modest price. (Convert Kataphrons to show mercy on your purse.)
You can use the flickering flame psychic power on flamers though. This is very good for them.
As I mentioned in another thread 30 Pink Horrors are also very nice when you deep strike. Against screens they even do more damage and are also somewhat cheaper.
Bubbles wrote: Hello fellow heretics. New Chaos player here, just starting out with a box of CSMs sitting in my lap. I want to build a Black Legion army with a slight focus on Khorne (but eventually expanding to other Chaos gods as I see fit.)
Any tips for do's-and-don'ts when it comes to equipping your marines? I got 12 I can make (couple extra that my boyfriend has and doesn't need anymore) and I was planning on doing 6 with Bolters, Plasma, and Combi-Plas, and the other 6 with BP & CS, Flamer, and Combi-Flamer. Does that sound like an okay start to cover my bases? I will definitely be magnetizing my special weapons and Champions.
I realize without a list this isn't much to go on, but I just wanted to hear what you all think about the marines anyway!
I am not very sold on Flamers this edition. I'm glad to see scatters and pie plates gone but I always liked the flamer template. Flamers are too overcosted. They should have stayed 5 pts. Plasma is very good, but you're still going to want some melta. High damage weapons are a necessity. I built my army without Meltas and every game is uphill to take out vehicles and high wound monsters.
That about the one way you are not supposed to do it XD
It’s unsupported by the rulebook, yes, but in practice official GW events show a strong inclination to a hybrid system. I’ve asked several times for a clarification or patch to accomodate what would be a controversial unit, and in friendlies negotiate a PL of 10 for ten Pink Horrors with free Splits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m starting to warm to Heretac squads.
Yes, they’re inferior to Cultists. But Cultist spam all the time is getting a little dull, and I’m finding a two Heavy Bolters ten man squad to be ok. Sort of thing you put on a rooftop at the front of your DZ. HB has got adequate synergy with the Boltguns. And they contribute 175% as many CP’s as Havoc squads (3/5 of a CP vs 1/4).
If you want anti-infantry firepower, 3 Heretac squads contribute half as many Heavy Bolters as 3 Havoc squads, but also pay for another Endless Cacophony. Or Tide of Traitors.
I’m not saying it’s better, I’m not saying it’s tournament material, I’m not saying it’s equivalent, but it does seems viable for keeping things shaken up in semi-casual play.
I want to build up a Khorne army, it would be nice to have 2k points TAC force eventually.
So, what should I be buying? At the moment I have some chosen, cultists, a lord, a champion and some Bezerkers.
Also, are chaos dreadnoughts a thing, can't seem to find them in the CSM codex.
I look forward to receiving your collective wisdom!
First off, welcome to the BLOOD GOD!
What should you be buying? Well first, 'some bezerkers' is no where near enough, as a Khorne player you should have 20 minimum. A Lord and champion are good travel buddies for the Zerkers and cultists are good for filling out battalion slots (get 30 so you can run a separate detachment to your Zerkers and get +3CP). Another thing you will need is rhinos for your Zerkers to travel in: cheap party buses that will get them from your deployment to theirs. It also might be worth looking into getting some Bloodletters, Heralds and Thirsters for when the Daemon Codex comes out so that you can just through them into your enemies deployment zone. Finally, you should get yourself an army centerpiece: something huge and intimidating that will draw all your opponents attention so that the rest of your army can go around claiming skulls, for me currently it's the Brass Scorpion of Khorne (the thing is a monster!).
As for the chaos dreadnought, that has been re-named to the helbrute and is ok this edition, not bad, not great, just ok.
Bubbles wrote: Hello fellow heretics. New Chaos player here, just starting out with a box of CSMs sitting in my lap. I want to build a Black Legion army with a slight focus on Khorne (but eventually expanding to other Chaos gods as I see fit.)
Any tips for do's-and-don'ts when it comes to equipping your marines? I got 12 I can make (couple extra that my boyfriend has and doesn't need anymore) and I was planning on doing 6 with Bolters, Plasma, and Combi-Plas, and the other 6 with BP & CS, Flamer, and Combi-Flamer. Does that sound like an okay start to cover my bases? I will definitely be magnetizing my special weapons and Champions.
I realize without a list this isn't much to go on, but I just wanted to hear what you all think about the marines anyway!
I am not very sold on Flamers this edition. I'm glad to see scatters and pie plates gone but I always liked the flamer template. Flamers are too overcosted. They should have stayed 5 pts. Plasma is very good, but you're still going to want some melta. High damage weapons are a necessity. I built my army without Meltas and every game is uphill to take out vehicles and high wound monsters.
Skip the Melta and just buy Lascannons and ML's and basically anything else. Melta sucks right now.
Yeah, there is some confusion on this topic but I would not come to the LVO assuming I could use Daemon strats on anything other than units that were Daemon Faction units.
I would assume if I was a Daemon player that a Daemon FAQ would be coming out quickly on the heels of the Daemon book as has been the case with other Cdoex releases. We will look to them to answer these questions but no, I would not plan on deep-striking (or any other similar uses of stratagems) Magnus, Mortarion, the Lord of Skulls, etc. with the Daemon codex. Again, we will look to GW for official answers but as friendly advice, that would be what I would say to anyone thinking about bringing that to the LVO.
The Frontline Gaming guys know whats in the pipeline, and they have hinted before when NOT to do something, and shortly after an FAQ came out nerfing whatever thing they were hinting at not to do. So this changes pretty much everything about the interaction between the Daemons Codex and CSM Daemons. We'll have to wait two weeks before it's official, but since Reece is saying to not do it, we can pretty safely assume it will be nerfed.
What should you be buying? Well first, 'some bezerkers' is no where near enough, as a Khorne player you should have 20 minimum. A Lord and champion are good travel buddies for the Zerkers and cultists are good for filling out battalion slots (get 30 so you can run a separate detachment to your Zerkers and get +3CP). Another thing you will need is rhinos for your Zerkers to travel in: cheap party buses that will get them from your deployment to theirs. It also might be worth looking into getting some Bloodletters, Heralds and Thirsters for when the Daemon Codex comes out so that you can just through them into your enemies deployment zone. Finally, you should get yourself an army centerpiece: something huge and intimidating that will draw all your opponents attention so that the rest of your army can go around claiming skulls, for me currently it's the Brass Scorpion of Khorne (the thing is a monster!).
As for the chaos dreadnought, that has been re-named to the helbrute and is ok this edition, not bad, not great, just ok.
thanks for the welcome and advice.. noted on the zerkers, I have 12 so will double that.. I have some imperial Rhinos I can "mutate" to the cause so transport can be provided
I like the centrepiece idea, big shooty things are fun, would a renegade knight fit the bill as I like the look of them but can't find much info.
gkos wrote: thanks for the welcome and advice.. noted on the zerkers, I have 12 so will double that.. I have some imperial Rhinos I can "mutate" to the cause so transport can be provided
I like the centrepiece idea, big shooty things are fun, would a renegade knight fit the bill as I like the look of them but can't find much info.
Renegade knights don't put out enough bang for their buck this edition for my money. A Kytan daemon engine or a Lord of Skulls might be a choice for a Khorne army, though it isn't all about winning, so if you don't fancy the look of the Kytan of LoS then stick with the knight: you could always convert the knight up to look more Khorney and use him as a stand in Kytan.
I've read a few people making good use of MoS flamer havocs/chosen on various forums. I looked at the math for 3 bikes w/ 2 flamers+combi bolter vs 5 havocs w/ 4 flamers+combi-flamer. On average (assuming 3.5 hits from flamers) the bike squad would dish out two more S4 hits than a havoc squad.
Not to mention 8 points cheaper, more resilient (T5 W6 vs T4 W5), combi-bolters allow them to harass from range, and don't need a transport.
I'm in a similar boat to the above new guy, but with a slightly different situation and could use some advice.
Tzeentch daemons grabbed me pretty hard (I've always liked the models, but with AoS making a resurgence in my area it seemed like a good time to start), but my collection for them is still small: 1 DP with talons and a single TD start collecting that I built with chariot herald instead of a BC.
I've been dissatisfied for a while with the state of 8th ed Raven Guard, and with primaris and minimal help from CA being the cherry on top of not being able to run a fluffy list, I've gone full traitor.
Now here's where the advice part comes in. I'm pretty flexible on legion trait, and as it's a hybrid 30k/40k army I have a LOT of bodies but minimal other vehicles, just 2 rhinos and 2 storm eagles. current count is 10 tartaros terminators (7 magnetized for combi-gun swaps) and ~80 various power armor bodies of all stripes, 33 of them magnetized for bolter/special/combi/HB (though less than 10 of each weapon)
What are the recommendations for turning this into an effective fighting force? My area isn't top-end competitive, so mostly general advice and things I should look to add. I've got a baal predator that's on the table to be magnetized into any of the hellforged pred variants, or can be run as a rhino but nothing else of note in the works.
WindstormSCR wrote: I'm in a similar boat to the above new guy, but with a slightly different situation and could use some advice.
Tzeentch daemons grabbed me pretty hard (I've always liked the models, but with AoS making a resurgence in my area it seemed like a good time to start), but my collection for them is still small: 1 DP with talons and a single TD start collecting that I built with chariot herald instead of a BC.
I've been dissatisfied for a while with the state of 8th ed Raven Guard, and with primaris and minimal help from CA being the cherry on top of not being able to run a fluffy list, I've gone full traitor.
Now here's where the advice part comes in. I'm pretty flexible on legion trait, and as it's a hybrid 30k/40k army I have a LOT of bodies but minimal other vehicles, just 2 rhinos and 2 storm eagles. current count is 10 tartaros terminators (7 magnetized for combi-gun swaps) and ~80 various power armor bodies of all stripes, 33 of them magnetized for bolter/special/combi/HB (though less than 10 of each weapon)
What are the recommendations for turning this into an effective fighting force? My area isn't top-end competitive, so mostly general advice and things I should look to add. I've got a baal predator that's on the table to be magnetized into any of the hellforged pred variants, or can be run as a rhino but nothing else of note in the works.
What kind of chaos army do you want? Shooting orientated? CC orientated? A mixed army? Do you want to be very warped/twisted daemonic army? Do you want to be more restrained with daemon use like Night Lords? Is there a specific legion you want to model after or maybe you want to make your own warband?
Need more info than just model count; I was able to give more info to Gkos because they said they wanted a Khorne army, which means bloodthirsty, daemonic and CC orientated.
What kind of chaos army do you want? Shooting orientated? CC orientated? A mixed army? Do you want to be very warped/twisted daemonic army? Do you want to be more restrained with daemon use like Night Lords? Is there a specific legion you want to model after or maybe you want to make your own warband?
Need more info than just model count; I was able to give more info to Gkos because they said they wanted a Khorne army, which means bloodthirsty, daemonic and CC orientated.
Fair enough.
For theme I'm going mostly tzeentch-marked, to mix with tzeentch daemons with a focus on older-model armor and legion gear. Some options for assault would be good, but after my experiences so far in 8th I'm dubious about the viability of that approach.
I'd like to try and stay at least somewhat true to the feel of the original RG legion that they'll have broken off from, which is why I was thinking alpha legion for a legion trait or possibly word bearers because of the daemon connection, and want to keep at least one Stormeagle in the list. As far as specialist units, I have a single breacher squad was going to use as counts-as rubrics, replacing the unit leader with the consul-librarian model. still haven't decided how to model the soulreaper cannon. Along a similar thought was using a volkite caliver/culverin special weapon squad as counts-as noise boys.
My only real hard line is I'm trying to avoid anything nurgle related!
For theme I'm going mostly tzeentch-marked, to mix with tzeentch daemons with a focus on older-model armor and legion gear. Some options for assault would be good, but after my experiences so far in 8th I'm dubious about the viability of that approach.
I'd like to try and stay at least somewhat true to the feel of the original RG legion that they'll have broken off from, which is why I was thinking alpha legion for a legion trait or possibly word bearers because of the daemon connection, and want to keep at least one Stormeagle in the list. As far as specialist units, I have a single breacher squad was going to use as counts-as rubrics, replacing the unit leader with the consul-librarian model. still haven't decided how to model the soulreaper cannon. Along a similar thought was using a volkite caliver/culverin special weapon squad as counts-as noise boys.
My only real hard line is I'm trying to avoid anything nurgle related!
Tzeentch isn't my strong spot (Primary is Khorne and I dabble in the other gods) but I'd say Alpha Legion Tzeentch focus could work, though it wouldn't be the most competitive choice. I'd say you could have a solid core of rubric stand ins piled into rhinos, I'd add onto that some sorcerers for your HQ slots and some cultists to fill out troops slots (yeah you have a lot of marines but CSM are next to useless and really just a waste of points), then I'd fill out your heavy support slots with havocs (this is where your marines come in) equipped with mid-short ranged weapons that you can then infiltrate forwards. You can tack your storm eagle onto that and maybe get a sorcerer to throw a 5++ onto it.
To get the more Tzeentchy vibe, you could then pair this with a Tzeentch battalion: Lord of Change w/impossible robes + a Herald, some units of 20+ pinks and some flamers that you can use the new deep strike stratagem with to throw down some serious dakka.
So, for purchases, I'd say get yourself a small Tzeentch daemon army with the above units and just have fun with converting your current units into chaos models.
Quick question guys, the drop pod of chaos says that mark of chaos troops can enter it as well as legion.
Does this mean as long as one matches then I can put a unit inside? For instance if the pod is marked thousand sons tzeentch could I put a unit of alpha legio tzeentch chosen?
demontalons wrote: Quick question guys, the drop pod of chaos says that mark of chaos troops can enter it as well as legion.
Does this mean as long as one matches then I can put a unit inside? For instance if the pod is marked thousand sons tzeentch could I put a unit of alpha legio tzeentch chosen?
If you mark it Thousand Sons, only Thousand Sons units may enter it during deployment and during the game.
Is it just me, or does a blood letter mass summon assault look a lot better than trying to use berserkers now. Bring a Daemon Detachment. Summon in bloodletters, you don't even need to use the strategem for 3d6. Just make sure you have instrument which adds +1 to your charge. And if you have Khorne loci, you have reroll charge too. And bloodletters are a lot cheaper than Berserkers.
You can add a Khorne patrol detachment to our CSM detachments, and you can do this already right?
Yes, Bloodletters deep striking in and re-rolling (I would also ALWAYS give them the 3D6 banner because you want to fan out and tag everything) is waaaaaay better than Drop Pod Berzerkers. Until World Eaters get their codex and the eventual 3D6 charge, it's either Rhinos or hoofing it if you want to be competitive.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Is it just me, or does a blood letter mass summon assault look a lot better than trying to use berserkers now. Bring a Daemon Detachment. Summon in bloodletters, you don't even need to use the strategem for 3d6. Just make sure you have instrument which adds +1 to your charge. And if you have Khorne loci, you have reroll charge too. And bloodletters are a lot cheaper than Berserkers.
You can add a Khorne patrol detachment to our CSM detachments, and you can do this already right?
Sure. Except around about equal points in Bloodletters gives you 21x S5 AP-3 D1 attacks versus Berzerkers 8x S10 AP-3 Dd3, 24x S6 AP-1 D1 and 10x S5 AP- D1 attacks. Berzerkers are better against high toughness units (VotLW making them even better) and they're better against low toughness units (S6 giving them 2+ vs T3). Bloodletters do have the unique ability now to enact alpha strikes that can clear out chaff and MEQs but they still don't hit like a bus like Zerkers do.
The problem with berserkers is that unless you are playing Alpha legion, you can't start them 9 inches from the opponent. And while forward operatives is amazing as a strategem. If you end up going second, you are boned because now you have a bunch of berserkers alone up the field ready to be shoot at and charged and destroyed by his whole army.
And if you don't use forward operatives, then you need Rhinos as a delivery system. That adds even more to the cost.
Eldenfirefly wrote: The problem with berserkers is that unless you are playing Alpha legion, you can't start them 9 inches from the opponent. And while forward operatives is amazing as a strategem. If you end up going second, you are boned because now you have a bunch of berserkers alone up the field ready to be shoot at and charged and destroyed by his whole army.
And if you don't use forward operatives, then you need Rhinos as a delivery system. That adds even more to the cost.
So 140pts extra that means I don't have to use a CP AND I have a model that can absorb overwatch attacks so that the Zerkers go in unscathed. And as I said before, in combat and in utility, Zerkers are still way better than Bloodletters.
A bloodletter bomb deep striking in is an immediate turn 1 threat. A squad of berserkers in a Rhino is at best a turn two threat. That's another consideration too.
mrhappyface wrote:Tzeentch isn't my strong spot (Primary is Khorne and I dabble in the other gods) but I'd say Alpha Legion Tzeentch focus could work, though it wouldn't be the most competitive choice. I'd say you could have a solid core of rubric stand ins piled into rhinos, I'd add onto that some sorcerers for your HQ slots and some cultists to fill out troops slots (yeah you have a lot of marines but CSM are next to useless and really just a waste of points), then I'd fill out your heavy support slots with havocs (this is where your marines come in) equipped with mid-short ranged weapons that you can then infiltrate forwards. You can tack your storm eagle onto that and maybe get a sorcerer to throw a 5++ onto it.
To get the more Tzeentchy vibe, you could then pair this with a Tzeentch battalion: Lord of Change w/impossible robes + a Herald, some units of 20+ pinks and some flamers that you can use the new deep strike stratagem with to throw down some serious dakka.
So, for purchases, I'd say get yourself a small Tzeentch daemon army with the above units and just have fun with converting your current units into chaos models.
Thanks! nice to know I'm more or less on the right track.
mrhappyface wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Is it just me, or does a blood letter mass summon assault look a lot better than trying to use berserkers now. Bring a Daemon Detachment. Summon in bloodletters, you don't even need to use the strategem for 3d6. Just make sure you have instrument which adds +1 to your charge. And if you have Khorne loci, you have reroll charge too. And bloodletters are a lot cheaper than Berserkers.
You can add a Khorne patrol detachment to our CSM detachments, and you can do this already right?
Sure. Except around about equal points in Bloodletters gives you 21x S5 AP-3 D1 attacks versus Berzerkers 8x S10 AP-3 Dd3, 24x S6 AP-1 D1 and 10x S5 AP- D1 attacks. Berzerkers are better against high toughness units (VotLW making them even better) and they're better against low toughness units (S6 giving them 2+ vs T3). Bloodletters do have the unique ability now to enact alpha strikes that can clear out chaff and MEQs but they still don't hit like a bus like Zerkers do.
Not sure how many berzerkers in that blob, but there is something to be said for 30 bodies with a 5++. Berzerkers hit harder, but die easier.
Eldenfirefly wrote: A bloodletter bomb deep striking in is an immediate turn 1 threat. A squad of berserkers in a Rhino is at best a turn two threat. That's another consideration too.
Your entire army isn't that bomb. You need a hammer to your anvil, and Berzerkers in Rhinos can be a part of that hammer. Think six turns, not one.
What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.
Fenris-77 wrote: What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.
This is so true. I wonder if it would be viable to take a tooled-up Bloodthirster and run him up the board alongside some Rhinos full of Berzerkers. Then also drop a unit or two of Bloodletters to force some difficult target priority choices. If the Berzerkers are Renegades, they can advance and then make a rerollable charge (because IoW), plus they can potentially have psychic support like Warptime or Prescience.
Fenris-77 wrote: What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.
And bloodletters are great at clearing out the chaff. You don't want to waste your expensive berserkers killing chaff, and then have them shot off the board in the following turn.
Fenris-77 wrote: What the Berzerkers need is a turn or two to get up the board relatively unmolested. The Bloodletters help with that. It's a win-win to roll with both.
This is so true. I wonder if it would be viable to take a tooled-up Bloodthirster and run him up the board alongside some Rhinos full of Berzerkers. Then also drop a unit or two of Bloodletters to force some difficult target priority choices. If the Berzerkers are Renegades, they can advance and then make a rerollable charge (because IoW), plus they can potentially have psychic support like Warptime or Prescience.
If you are going to run the bloodthirster up the board, then bringing skarbrand might be better. He also doesn't allow enemy units to fall back.
Hey guys just a heads up - Reece and Geoff Robinson confirmed that Magnus and Morty deepstriking via the stratagem will get FAQ’d not to work when the first Daemons FAQ comes out post codex
I wonder if that restriction will be limited to just primarchs or LOWs or if it will include any CSM codex/FW daemon unit as well. I like my deepstriking blood slaughterers.
I’d expect them to throw the baby out with the bath water and make it Codex: daemons units only. Wouldn’t want to accidentally make a few stinkers viable by accident, now.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I wonder if that restriction will be limited to just primarchs or LOWs or if it will include any CSM codex/FW daemon unit as well. I like my deepstriking blood slaughterers.
Could be a PL cap. There's a lot of things between 9PL and 20+ (wherein the the perceived abuse lies)
Thanks! nice to know I'm more or less on the right track.
No problem.
Not sure how many berzerkers in that blob, but there is something to be said for 30 bodies with a 5++. Berzerkers hit harder, but die easier.
That's for about an equal number of points, so 10 Bloodletters for 5 Zerkers. And as for Bloodletters being tougher, well that depends on the situation: Bloodletters have T3 so are already worse against S6/7 and their invul save is only better than Zerker's 3+ Vs AP-3+, and you'll generally find that your opponent won't waste their S8 AP-3 weapons against infantry. So, in general, Zerkers are more survivable.
Whoa, I’m looking at Index IAAM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar
Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:
- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)
lindsay40k wrote: Whoa, I’m looking at Index IAAM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar
Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:
- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)
IA never got a commissar Nerf? Then wouldn't guard still have access to IA commissars?
Lindsay meant to say the Renegade Enforcer never saw a nerf, So when an infantry unit takes a Morale test nearby, the Enforcer uses Baleful Judgement and that unit simply takes "D3 slain models" instead of the test. So a unit of 40 Renegade and Heretic Cultists is not a bad idea because you can still use Tide of Traitors on them. NO YOU CANNOT THEY ARE DIFFERENT UNITS MY BAD! Do note that they don't get a Legion Trait, though, but if you just want bubble wrap than this is pretty much the best way to get it, especially if your Trait wouldn't help the cultists much anyways (like Iron Warriors, or World Eaters).
IT'S THE BEST OF BOOOTH WOOORLDS!It's pretty good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to justify 3 battalions: World Eaters, Khorne Daemons, and Renegades. I can pretty easily call this my Armageddon Army and it would be fluffy, plus it would make good use of a lot of my models. Renegades would cover the backfield, World Eaters mid-far field, and Daemons far field. There's a lot of board control potential with max Flesh Hounds, Bloodletter Bomb, Berzerkers, and min Cultists / Bloodletter units all supported by Characters (except the RnH units). I've got about 50 Cultists I want to shove in somewhere but I also want to use my Blood Slaughterers.
Hmm. I came up against a nasty Drones list today. I play quick 50 Power games; current list is Steed Lord with Murder Sword, Steed Sorcerer usually WT and DA, 20 Cultists, 20 Cultists, 20 Slaanesh melee CSMs with 2 melta, combi melta, Fist, 10 Slaanesh Havocs with missile launchers and combi-Flamer.
He has three units of 12 Drones, that took the wounds for three units of pathfinders, 2 stealth teams, and some support characters. And a crisis suit guy with loads of melta.
It started off okay. An exposed stealth team met EC and gave me first blood. Melee unit got a charge that avoid Overwatch... got beaten senseless. Bad rolls. A few surviving Cultists ToT’d into enemy deployment zone and nearly killed a pathfinder squad.
Tried a charge that focussed my forces on one flank, but it didn’t break through and I got surrounded and gunned down.
It seemed to be a really powerful list. I’m thinking about going back to Havocs spam, as I seem to come up against this and Eldar and Space Wolves and usually outrange them but lack the firepower to make good on it.
Looking at the new stuff, I’m thinking about this:
Chaos Daemons Nurgle Patrol
Whatever a Herald’s called now, Miasma
20 Plaguebearers
Fortification Network
Feculant Gnarlmaw
Castle up around the FG for 1+ saves (yes I know 1’s always fail, it’s a useful shorthand, well it would be), threat of Oblits forces enemy to screen their rear, when I’m just going to drop them in my own lines and benefit from the Locus for mega dakka and a 0+ save (don’t start)
I have a request, I am trying to get some ideas of a 2k competitive list that consist of Alpha legion and Iron warriors and would like to get some ideas from all of you. My current idea consist of:
battalion of Alpha legion with a Terminator lord, a sorcerer, 3 twenty man squads of cultists, 2 units of Obliterators, and 2x fire raptors
Outrider detachment with a jump pack lord, 3x Raptors with 2 plasma and champ sporting a melta ea.
A more important thing to consider now. With the new daemon codex and the new nifty deep strike strategems, is a full melee army (whether Khorne or Slanaash) now a viable option?
It hasn't been so far, but that was because horde bubble wrap and the power of shooting made melee armies run into major problems trying to get to the really juicy stuff at the back of an opponents army.
Now, we can deep strike in 60 bloodletters for 3 CP, who can do 120 attacks. That would likely clear away most chaff while remaining a substantial threat that still must be dealt with.
The rest of the melee army can then run up the board as per normal. The key thing is that 60 bloodletters barely cost 420 points. That's less than 20% of a 2000 point army. So, you can load the rest of your army with all sorts of other melee units, scary characters and such.
Another tactic I was thinking of was the multi wave bloodletter bomb. Imagine a 1st wave of 60 bloodletters to clear the chaff, with a second wave of another 60 blood letters waiting in deepstrike reserve to come in on the second turn. So, maybe the first wave of 60 bloodletters gets shot up and destroyed after clearing the chaff. But now, there is no longer any bubble wrap left to stop the second wave of 60 letters deep striking in to wreck havoc.
You need 120 bloodletters and 6 cp. But the whole thing only cost 840 points.
(opps, sorry, I thought bloodletters were 6 points). They are 7 points. edited my post. But it still works out to a viable melee strategy on less than half of your army points.
I think you'll see that 720pt plan a lot. You have enough points left to field tough targets and bubblewrap sufficient to survive an alpha strike.Against some armies, the Bloodletters could win the game all by themselves too. It;s pretty sexy.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Use slimux to bring the gnarl forward and ds oblits in to meet them? Still don't want oblits to be assaulted.. nurgling screen?
yes that seem to be the only viable use of gnarls (and to see if points invested are worth), nurglings are a great screen for Ds units, i use them to screen my blightlords in my death guard list.
I'm retooling my LVO list post-Daemon codex rebalance - was running some changeling magnus BS. Is there validity now in using skarbrand with alpha legion berzerks? Skarbrand giving the +1 attack characteristic seems big (now that he is cheaper and can be deep struck) as it effectively gives each model 2 more attacks (1 each fighting phase).
orkswubwub wrote: I'm retooling my LVO list post-Daemon codex rebalance - was running some changeling magnus BS. Is there validity now in using skarbrand with alpha legion berzerks? Skarbrand giving the +1 attack characteristic seems big (now that he is cheaper and can be deep struck) as it effectively gives each model 2 more attacks (1 each fighting phase).
Those Berzerkers are going to be out of range of Skarbrand very quickly with their pile in and consolidate moves, trust me. Why Berzerkers and not Bloodletters as the alpha strike? They have a much larger footprint for cheaper, and the 3D6 means you won't need Alpha Legion shenanigans at all. You can go pure Daemons if you wanted to drop the CSM all together.
Edit: I just realized I'm in the CSM thread and not the Daemons thread, lol. I would say go Skarbrand + Bloodletters OR CSMHQ's + Berzerkers, or a splash of one or the other when mixing. You definitely want to exploit as many auras as you can as much as you can. At the moment there isn't a lot of overlap between Berzerkers and Daemons, but your Daemons can be a great alpha strike for your Berzerker's to then roll up onto.
Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters
orkswubwub wrote: Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters
Eh... It's doubled, but is that twice as good?
If the Zerkers have Chainswords, it's two S5 AP0 swings as compared to one S4 AP-3 swing. If you're up against, say, Terminators, that's an average of 4/27ths of a wound from the Zerkers, as compared to 2/9ths or 6/27ths of a wound from the Letters.
Well you could put the +1 attack on the battle axe right? So you could run Battle axe with chainsword. thats 2 extra attacks from the axe (1 per fight). Also to put the banner on letters you have to cost 2 CP total I think vs 1 for the alpha.
I am open to zerkers being worse at this or at least... not super great. But maybe someone can break it down a bit more.
Obviously too skarbrand in melee constantly but i was thinking it could be nifty to use his no morale on conga lined cultists too... Not as a main purpose but even FLG mentions skarbrand is a decent "support" type role... just thinking outside the box
orkswubwub wrote: Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters
Eh... It's doubled, but is that twice as good?
If the Zerkers have Chainswords, it's two S5 AP0 swings as compared to one S4 AP-3 swing. If you're up against, say, Terminators, that's an average of 4/27ths of a wound from the Zerkers, as compared to 2/9ths or 6/27ths of a wound from the Letters.
Except that's wrong. The sergeant gets 2 extra S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks and the regular zerkers get 2 extra S6 AP-1 attacks. So the regular zerkers get 8/27th extra and the sergeant gets 30/27th more wounds.
orkswubwub wrote: Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters
Eh... It's doubled, but is that twice as good?
If the Zerkers have Chainswords, it's two S5 AP0 swings as compared to one S4 AP-3 swing. If you're up against, say, Terminators, that's an average of 4/27ths of a wound from the Zerkers, as compared to 2/9ths or 6/27ths of a wound from the Letters.
Except that's wrong. The sergeant gets 2 extra S10 AP-3 Dd3 attacks and the regular zerkers get 2 extra S6 AP-1 attacks. So the regular zerkers get 8/27th extra and the sergeant gets 30/27th more wounds.
Okay, but that's about 180 points right there, assuming a 10 man squad, for 102/27ths wounds (or about 3.78).
For the same 180 points, you get 25 Letters (which makes them hit on 2s) for 25 extra S4 AP-3 attacks hitting on 2s, for just under 7 extra wounds.
On top of that, versus T3 6+ chaff units, the letters get 12/27th extra wounds whilst zerkers get 30/27th extra wounds each. That's over the 2.29 thresh hold.
mrhappyface wrote: On top of that, versus T3 6+ chaff units, the letters get 12/27th extra wounds whilst zerkers get 30/27th extra wounds each. That's over the 2.29 thresh hold.
Right... But most T3 models have a 5+. T4 6+ is a valid unit (Ork Boyz), but the only T3 6+ unit I can think of is Scarabs. And if you're scared of Scarabs... Well.
Okay, but that's about 180 points right there, assuming a 10 man squad, for 102/27ths wounds (or about 3.78).
For the same 180 points, you get 25 Letters (which makes them hit on 2s) for 25 extra S4 AP-3 attacks hitting on 2s, for just under 7 extra wounds.
Don't forget as well, because Zerkers are heretic Astartes, they also have access to being warptime, prescience, VotLW. It's not hard to get a unit of 20 Zerkers wherever you need them, hitting on 2s (with extra hits against Imperial), wounding on 2s and attacking a 3rd time if need be. As well as access to HQs that can give them re-rolling to hit and wound.
mrhappyface wrote: On top of that, versus T3 6+ chaff units, the letters get 12/27th extra wounds whilst zerkers get 30/27th extra wounds each. That's over the 2.29 thresh hold.
Right... But most T3 models have a 5+. T4 6+ is a valid unit (Ork Boyz), but the only T3 6+ unit I can think of is Scarabs. And if you're scared of Scarabs... Well.
The unit that immediately came to my mind was cultists. Still, even with a 5+ Zerkers win out.
Yeah this was kind of what I was thinking. Naturally half the army has to be boots on ground - which also alpha lets accommodate. I am not sure about rerolling wounds (have to commit an exalted champion*) but it is an easy drop to put VOTLW on the zerkers with skarbrand if needed.
Also the letters degrade (in the sense that when they drop below 20 they will go to 3+). I doubt most armies are running 6x 30 letters as their primary damage out - so when some drop it'll be trouble, zerkers toughness is higher, better save, etc. I know alpha strike is the hype but game may go to turn 2.
Just saying the strengths I see of running this type of line-up to enhance the alpha zerkers in chaos soup to clear chaffe
orkswubwub wrote: Yeah well the aura is for the unit and is 8 inches, so even if you pile in off a 9 inch drop, the unit will be in range. Also the +1 attack is literally twice as good on zerkers, and zerkers shred harder in melee. Thats the thought behind zerkers over bloodletters
I'm telling you from experience: Those Berzerkers are going to easily outpace Skarbrand. Regardless, they don't really need a +1 Attack boost and would benefit much more from a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champ nearby, who allow them to delete pretty much any unit you put them against. Berzerkers shouldn't be your chaff clearer anyways; they easily knock over tanks and other bigger targets and that is what they should be pushed against.
My biggest problem with Alpha Legion Berzerkers vs one 30 man Bloodletter Bomb is that you need first turn to make sure your Berzerkers don't get removed, otherwise you might as well have rolled them up in Rhinos. Meanwhile the Bomb just needs one little empty space of board and doesn't even need to come in first turn. You want to throw Skarbrand into this which is kind of a huge point sink just to boost your already murderous Berzerkers. Meanwhile he gives rerolls to your Khorne Daemons along with his Warlord trait of rerolling 1s if you want, on top of his natural aura.
What you're proposing looks cool but a savvy opponent who is already prepared for Nids doing assault shenanigans will be able to survive the alpha strike and counter attack you, either by falling back the screening units (they are outside the Deep Struck Skarbrand's aura) and shooting, or beta striking. And suddenly your huge investment (over 25% of your army) is in mortal danger.
The bomb costs more CP but less points, leaving you open to create even more powerful threats, like Berzerkers in boxes. Berzerkers may be better at clearing away chaff than Bloodletters, but your point investment for doing so would make your opponent smile.
JNAProductions wrote: Okay, but that's about 180 points right there, assuming a 10 man squad, for 102/27ths wounds (or about 3.78).
For the same 180 points, you get 25 Letters (which makes them hit on 2s) for 25 extra S4 AP-3 attacks hitting on 2s, for just under 7 extra wounds.
Don't forget as well, because Zerkers are heretic Astartes, they also have access to being warptime, prescience, VotLW. It's not hard to get a unit of 20 Zerkers wherever you need them, hitting on 2s (with extra hits against Imperial), wounding on 2s and attacking a 3rd time if need be. As well as access to HQs that can give them re-rolling to hit and wound.
That is an enormous amount of points, spells, and CP invested into one unit. Yes it will clear all the chaff away from your opponents deployment zone as if it never even existed, but all that offensive power isn't going to protect them against the incoming retaliation. The Bloodletters are cheaper both in points and CP, cover a wider area (30 vs 20), and are still very much too big of a threat to ignore. They can clear away chaff just fine and open the way for your Berzerkers inside Rhinos or Drop Pods.
There's just no viable reason to put 20 Berzerkers down in the kill zone, have them kill 1/4th their points in chaff, and then get blown off the board. Let the Bloodletters get blown off the board instead and take the extra points to buy a Khorne damned Rhino!
I am coming over to the bloodletter side - unfortunately though it seems you likely have to run them with the 3d6 banner though to do this which does make it a 2 CP point sink for about a 140(ish) point unit
orkswubwub wrote: I am coming over to the bloodletter side - unfortunately though it seems you likely have to run them with the 3d6 banner though to do this which does make it a 2 CP point sink for about a 140(ish) point unit
I'd go 30 man unit with the banner, so 3CP. You should have at least two battalions if you want to do something like this. I'm fitting a third into my list.
lindsay40k wrote: Whoa, I’m looking at Index IAAM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar
Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:
- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)
Please note the enforcer lacks the character keyword though so he is super easy to remove. That really changes the argument.
lindsay40k wrote: Whoa, I’m looking at Index IAAM and it’s FAQ, and Renegades & Heretics get Mutant Conscripts with a 33% chance of T4 - and a non-deborked Commissar
Only reasons I can see to bother with Cultists:
- you need them or some HQs to have LEGION trait (don’t care, I main Word Bearers)
- you’re Iron Warriors or Black Legion exploiting a Fearless bubble (ditto)
- you want to make use of Tide of Traitors to outflank, recycle, and deny unit kill (ah, now this is good)
- you want to do something creative with other Stratagems (...meh)
- you want to Warptime a DG Cultist blob, carrying four Flamers, with enhanced Advance rolls, and force the enemy to ignore the threat or turn them into Poxwalkers (this is really good)
Please note the enforcer lacks the character keyword though so he is super easy to remove. That really changes the argument.
Any brainstorming ideas on how to beat a list running 10 PBC all with spwers (5x and 5x) with chaos daemon prince for rerolls (probably also with DG warlord trait to reroll wounds).
I would assume alpha legion would be decent bringing the PBC from a 4+ to a 5+ but eventually the crawlers will close and with 2 spewers auto hitting and rerolling wounds will be difficult on objective points. Even trying to get these units into melee with a charge - the chargers will eat spewer damage and not many units can one shot a PBC (which will fall back leaving you open to get spewered by the other PBC).
orkswubwub wrote: Any brainstorming ideas on how to beat a list running 10 PBC all with spwers (5x and 5x) with chaos daemon prince for rerolls (probably also with DG warlord trait to reroll wounds).
I would assume alpha legion would be decent bringing the PBC from a 4+ to a 5+ but eventually the crawlers will close and with 2 spewers auto hitting and rerolling wounds will be difficult on objective points. Even trying to get these units into melee with a charge - the chargers will eat spewer damage and not many units can one shot a PBC (which will fall back leaving you open to get spewered by the other PBC).
Charge them from 9" away (they won't be able to shoot you with their spewers), pile into as many as you can (guessing they will be huddled together to get the re-roll), trying your best to wrap around and prevent them from leaving combat, and laugh as they keep backing up and you keep moving to a safe distance and charging. Multiple units of Zerkers with icon of wrath should make sure you tie up the crawlers with at least one unit a turn.
Depends. As much as I like the DG traits, their Tactical Objectives are poor. For my DGIW List, I'll bring a Daemon Prince, the +1 wound, 6+ fnp, relic armor that heals a wound, and Delightful Agonies power all stacked up. Their Tac Obj are all doable for the most part.
When I play a mono Death Guard list, I'll pick a Lord of Contagion or someone and just hide him in Deepstrike, or miss out on a good trait and pick Typhus who is usually well protected in his pox blob. I use the DG daemon prince as a brawler so I rather not offer up a warlord kill for him as easily since he is already a big target.
Daemons offers some interesting options. The - 1 to hit is good for the Prince, and their Tac Obj aren't terrible.
All depends what you're trying to gain and what you're gonna lose.
I'm quite interested to see what people start coming up with with Daemons in the mix now. I love daemons, I really do, I mained them in 5th for quite a long time (Fatecrusher FTW!).
I'm thinking a detachments with Gnarlmaws will be standard for DG lists now, they're so good, and maybe a GUO, PB's, and more. I built a list that utilized alpha-zerkers, now I'm thinking I might just take a Daemons detachment for a boatload of letters.
lindsay40k wrote: So. We now have three Codices. Each with Warlord Traits, Relics, and Tactical Objectives that are unlocked by the Codex your Warlord is from.
If one has a DG, a CSM, and a Daemon Detachment, what’s the best bet?
Think it will either be CSM and Daemons or DG and Daemons. Think trying to go DG plus CSM plus Daemons runs the danger of spreading yourself too thin.
I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.
Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.
Badablack wrote: I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.
Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.
One unit of 3 Crushers is only 8PL, so you can deep strike that in for 1CP, plus Banner of Blood them for 1CP so they can 3D6 charge. Drop in Skulltaker behind them so they get +1 to their Hit rolls. 20 Bloodletters are slightly cheaper, however you'll get all your Bloodcrusher attacks whereas you'll only get a certain amount of the Bloodletters.
I'm starting to really like bloodcrushers as a second-wave assault shock or for hitting things that are out of position, they may not be as great for tournaments where it's turn1 or bust, but even there the extra toughness could be pretty fantastic considering they dole out almost the same # of attacks point for point as bloodletters
Badablack wrote: I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.
Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.
One unit of 3 Crushers is only 8PL, so you can deep strike that in for 1CP, plus Banner of Blood them for 1CP so they can 3D6 charge. Drop in Skulltaker behind them so they get +1 to their Hit rolls. 20 Bloodletters are slightly cheaper, however you'll get all your Bloodcrusher attacks whereas you'll only get a certain amount of the Bloodletters.
This is sweet on paper, but to unlock that Locus you need three Bloodcrusher units.
Faction purity is fine in principle, but in practice, the low number of deities with battlefield role diversity means large quantities of the same unit.
If they patched in a generic Elite and Troops unit, then it’d be fine. And the opportunity on at least one was there, with that mutalith thingy, but apparently that’s a Thousand Son, so no dice there.
Badablack wrote: I really want to get a Khorne daemon contingent to run with my Lord of Skulls and Decimator now for those sweet Daemon Engine buffs. Add a Battalion with a Sorcerer and Jugger Lord with cultists for MAXIMUM BUFF ROBOTS.
Put the crown relic on a Herald, take a bunch of bloodcrushers and daemon buffers, then run them next to Khorne Decimators and daemon steed Lords for fast sturdy assaulters.
One unit of 3 Crushers is only 8PL, so you can deep strike that in for 1CP, plus Banner of Blood them for 1CP so they can 3D6 charge. Drop in Skulltaker behind them so they get +1 to their Hit rolls. 20 Bloodletters are slightly cheaper, however you'll get all your Bloodcrusher attacks whereas you'll only get a certain amount of the Bloodletters.
This is sweet on paper, but to unlock that Locus you need three Bloodcrusher units
Wut? You just need a Patrol Detachment: one Herald / Skulltaker, One Bloodletter bomb, One Bloodcrusher unit. Done, locus unlocked.
Whats the best way of buffing up Possessed? I get Nurgle is the way to go but I can't seem to think of a way that doesn't burn all the CPs up.
I'm tempted to try the following @ 2K.
Nurgle Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
9 Berzerkers in Rhinos
10 Berzerkers in Rhinos
20 Nurgle Possessed
3x10 Cultists
HoK 30 Bloodletters
HoN HoN 3x3 Nuglings
Alpha Legion Possessed can start 9" away, then Deep Strike the Nurgle Heralds & Sorcerer in with them, hit them with a combination of Shriveling Pox/Virulent Blessing/Miasma of Pestilence & then Prescience/Death Hex off the Sorcerer.
Bloodletter bombs hits turn 1 too. Berzerkers with the DA come in turn 2 to mop up. Cultists and Nurglings just throw shapes on objectives.
What is the value of a sorcerer with jump pack? I understand this is kind of a pie in the sky type of question as it depends on your list, their list (do denies matter) etc.
However, I am thinking that typically sorcerer is run with a jump pack for prescience and one other ability (smite?), likely with the standard obliterator chaos lord combination. Prescience is likely going on obliterators and even using VOTLW and Reshooting against a standard invul save I think it nets maybe a couple more wounds. Does that really validate the cost of a sorcerer considering for a few more points you can essentially include an extra unit of oblits (acknowledging oblits are heavy supp and Sorcerer is an HQ if you need that role) - the cost isn't even that far depending what weapon is placed on the sorc...
Kuklops wrote: Whats the best way of buffing up Possessed? I get Nurgle is the way to go but I can't seem to think of a way that doesn't burn all the CPs up.
I'm tempted to try the following @ 2K.
Nurgle Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
9 Berzerkers in Rhinos
10 Berzerkers in Rhinos
20 Nurgle Possessed
3x10 Cultists
HoK 30 Bloodletters
HoN HoN 3x3 Nuglings
Alpha Legion Possessed can start 9" away, then Deep Strike the Nurgle Heralds & Sorcerer in with them, hit them with a combination of Shriveling Pox/Virulent Blessing/Miasma of Pestilence & then Prescience/Death Hex off the Sorcerer.
Bloodletter bombs hits turn 1 too. Berzerkers with the DA come in turn 2 to mop up. Cultists and Nurglings just throw shapes on objectives.
Thoughts?
Why Prescience and not Warp Time? 20 buffed Possessed in melee turn one is fierce.
Kuklops wrote: Whats the best way of buffing up Possessed? I get Nurgle is the way to go but I can't seem to think of a way that doesn't burn all the CPs up.
I'm tempted to try the following @ 2K.
Nurgle Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
9 Berzerkers in Rhinos
10 Berzerkers in Rhinos
20 Nurgle Possessed
3x10 Cultists
HoK 30 Bloodletters
HoN HoN 3x3 Nuglings
Alpha Legion Possessed can start 9" away, then Deep Strike the Nurgle Heralds & Sorcerer in with them, hit them with a combination of Shriveling Pox/Virulent Blessing/Miasma of Pestilence & then Prescience/Death Hex off the Sorcerer.
Bloodletter bombs hits turn 1 too. Berzerkers with the DA come in turn 2 to mop up. Cultists and Nurglings just throw shapes on objectives.
Thoughts?
Why Prescience and not Warp Time? 20 buffed Possessed in melee turn one is fierce.
Alpha Legion means those Possessed start the game 9 inches from the enemy and turn one get to move up. No warptime required.
With the release of Daemons Codex I've been looking at my Juggerlords again but I'm finding them maybe 10 points overcosted. A Juggerlord with an Axe of Blind Fury is doing less wounds than an Exalted Champ with the same Axe. The Juggernaut attacks help close the gap but then you're just paying twice as much for a unit doing the same amount of damage. Sure the Juggerlord is tankyer with more toughness and wounds and a 4+ invul save, but I'm not playing Nurgle's bois here. When I charge something I expect it to fething die, and rerolling wounds increases the amount of wounds a unit does on average.
Poor Juggerlords, I just want them to be good. I've got two of them!
Edit: A Daemon Prince without wings is also only 16 more points than an AoBF JuggerLord with wwwwaaaayyyyy better stats. Hell just take Uraka or Zhufor for a better priced unit.
I've been thinking. All three CHAOS Codexes confer faction tactics on a limited selection of units. So, we only really need to put the following units in 'pure' detachments, and everything else can go into soup detachments; that can be the difference of, say, an Endless Cacophony, if we put three odd FA units and three odd Elite units into detachments:
DAEMONS: Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Exalted Flamers; TZEENTCH are low priority as their detachment Locus is fairly weak.
DEATH GUARD: INFANTRY and HELBRUTES armed with Heavy, Assault, or Rapid Fire weapons.
BLACK LEGION: Larger INFANTRY and BIKERS units; INFANTRY and BIKERS and HELBRUTE units with Rapid Fire weapons.
IRON WARRIORS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that are going to shoot things, especially INFANTRY.
RENEGADES, WORLD EATERS: INFANTRY, BIKER, and HELBRUTE units you intend to charge something with.
NIGHT LORDS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that aren't going to be thoroughly screened.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units you expect to receive charges or to be entangled for more than one turn of close combat.
ALPHA LEGION: Most INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units.
WORD BEARERS: Non-MSU INFANTRY and BIKER units.
So, if you've got three melee-only DG characters and a DG Predator in a Batallion, and two Burning Chariots in a Daemons Battalion, and it won't break a limit on number of detachments, you may as well put them all in a CHAOS Spearhead and claim an extra CP.
In larger games, I can see scope for Daemon Supreme Commands getting the Loci online and then backfield Chaos Lords or such leading soup detachments with the rest of the Warp-children.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been thinking. All three CHAOS Codexes confer faction tactics on a limited selection of units. So, we only really need to put the following units in 'pure' detachments, and everything else can go into soup detachments; that can be the difference of, say, an Endless Cacophony, if we put three odd FA units and three odd Elite units into detachments:
DAEMONS: Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Exalted Flamers; TZEENTCH are low priority as their detachment Locus is fairly weak.
DEATH GUARD: INFANTRY and HELBRUTES armed with Heavy, Assault, or Rapid Fire weapons.
BLACK LEGION: Larger INFANTRY and BIKERS units; INFANTRY and BIKERS and HELBRUTE units with Rapid Fire weapons.
IRON WARRIORS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that are going to shoot things, especially INFANTRY.
RENEGADES, WORLD EATERS: INFANTRY, BIKER, and HELBRUTE units you intend to charge something with.
NIGHT LORDS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that aren't going to be thoroughly screened.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units you expect to receive charges or to be entangled for more than one turn of close combat.
ALPHA LEGION: Most INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units.
WORD BEARERS: Non-MSU INFANTRY and BIKER units.
So, if you've got three melee-only DG characters and a DG Predator in a Batallion, and two Burning Chariots in a Daemons Battalion, and it won't break a limit on number of detachments, you may as well put them all in a CHAOS Spearhead and claim an extra CP.
In larger games, I can see scope for Daemon Supreme Commands getting the Loci online and then backfield Chaos Lords or such leading soup detachments with the rest of the Warp-children.
Yeah, the more Codexes get released, the more I think the optimal playstyle is mixed detachments. I've been running Alpha Legion Cultists with my Black Legion Terminators the last few games, it's been making a difference.
I would be a little more specific for each subfaction. For example:
BLACK LEGION: Abaddon, 2 squads of Chaos Terminators with Combi-Plasma. Deep strike rerolling all misses to hit.
Does anyone still have that one Math-hammer site where you could enter a weapon and see the full table of damage dealt? I can't find it for the life of me.
So something I noticed looking at the daemons codex.... Daemon Engines (forgefiend/maulerfiend, bloodslaughterer, etc....) don't have the Daemon FACTION keyword. which means you currently can't put them into a daemons detachment. This makes me sad as in my mind they are daemons through and through. You guys think there is any chance of errata for this?
smegma_crunch wrote: So something I noticed looking at the daemons codex.... Daemon Engines (forgefiend/maulerfiend, bloodslaughterer, etc....) don't have the Daemon FACTION keyword. which means you currently can't put them into a daemons detachment. This makes me sad as in my mind they are daemons through and through. You guys think there is any chance of errata for this?
They are Daemonic in nature, but bear in mind they are also machines built by mortals. They are affected by things that affect Daemons, but their maintenance is by Warpsmiths, their orders come from Chaos Lords, and their transit is by spacecraft.
Daemonic Engines are built so that Daemons can stay in the material world. It would go against everything in the Daemons Codex if they had those since the entire point of the low morale Daemons is that their presence is only tenuously tied to the mortal realms.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been thinking. All three CHAOS Codexes confer faction tactics on a limited selection of units. So, we only really need to put the following units in 'pure' detachments, and everything else can go into soup detachments; that can be the difference of, say, an Endless Cacophony, if we put three odd FA units and three odd Elite units into detachments:
DAEMONS: Heralds, Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Exalted Flamers; TZEENTCH are low priority as their detachment Locus is fairly weak.
DEATH GUARD: INFANTRY and HELBRUTES armed with Heavy, Assault, or Rapid Fire weapons.
BLACK LEGION: Larger INFANTRY and BIKERS units; INFANTRY and BIKERS and HELBRUTE units with Rapid Fire weapons.
IRON WARRIORS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that are going to shoot things, especially INFANTRY.
RENEGADES, WORLD EATERS: INFANTRY, BIKER, and HELBRUTE units you intend to charge something with.
NIGHT LORDS: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units that aren't going to be thoroughly screened.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN: INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units you expect to receive charges or to be entangled for more than one turn of close combat.
ALPHA LEGION: Most INFANTRY, BIKER and HELBRUTE units.
WORD BEARERS: Non-MSU INFANTRY and BIKER units.
So, if you've got three melee-only DG characters and a DG Predator in a Batallion, and two Burning Chariots in a Daemons Battalion, and it won't break a limit on number of detachments, you may as well put them all in a CHAOS Spearhead and claim an extra CP.
In larger games, I can see scope for Daemon Supreme Commands getting the Loci online and then backfield Chaos Lords or such leading soup detachments with the rest of the Warp-children.
the more I build my lists, the more I am trending towards a tzeentch/khorne mix instead of trying to keep things separate. the khorne locus is pretty much obviated by the existence of the banner strat, while the tzeentch locus is so underwhelming that it's not even worth putting in the effort to get.
even nurgle is pretty meh except under exceptional circumstances, slaanesh seems to be the only one where it is good enough to be worth the effort to acquire.
Despite all the fluff about how the 4 daemon factions are always fighting with each other, from a tactical point of view, you can form a more complete, more flexible army if you don't go mono god. Besides, its not as if the chaos gods haven't joined together before.
Yep. The actual perks for many factions seem to be underwhelming. Alpha Legion and Ultramarines are amazing, most others... eh, go pure if you can, but don’t go out your way for it. Just get one Detachment to unlock your Codex’s Stratagems.
Right. What does the Daemon Codex add to Drakes, Dinobots, and Decimators?
Re-rolling charges and getting +1S with a Juggerherald running with them seems brilliant.
Tzeentch Locus is pants.
Nurgle Locus isn’t too shabby on a Lasherfiend or Baledrake.
Charge after Advance looks good on a Lasherfiend. Not so much Decimator, if it’s loaded out for melee it’ll lose out on its Hellflamers.
Ignoring Stratagems as they’re likely to be verboten. Locus of Wrath might remain a thing but it’s paying 2CP to do what the Dark Apostle already does to them,
Flickering Flames is far better cast on Horrors.
Virulent Blessing looks sweet on a Lasherfiend. Decimator could punch a Knight’s lights out. Interesting synergy with Exalted Champion aura buff?
Fleshy Abundance is great if you’re trying to tank with these things.
Hysterical Frenzy is an unreliable bonus, when it works it’ll be sweet.
Situational, 24" smite isn't too bad - especially with Magnus. Some of the new powers might make it a good legion tactic though, something with auras might be nice.
-1 to hit is good, especially useful on Magnus with a 3++ re-roll 1s. It is however the exact same power as Nurgle has but is WC7 rather than 6... Odd.
Eh, WC9 for smite with a movement debuff on it? Might be good against genestealers, Berzerkers, etc. and the ability to snipe characters might be nice but WC9? We'll have to see.
My first thought: Yay! The extremely slow rubrics get a way to stick their uber-bolters right into the enemies face. Second thought: Booo! 9" mean the warpflamers can't hit anything. Might be better than sending bolter rubrics up the board via rhino though, we'll have to see.
Hmmm... Send Magnus or the new warp beasty thing into the enemies face? Tempting. Might also be a good way of getting terminators a double strike rather than coming down and then having to footslog once they killed their first target. I like it.
Situational perhaps but I'm sure that there'll be a time where you can send a rhino on a suicide mission to cripple a party of devastators and for 1CP I could see people using it. Not bad.
1CP less than the similar stratagem in Heretic Astartes but can only target Tzaangors. To be honest, I haven't been too impressed with Tzaangors' damage output but for 2CP you can't complain.
Errrr... I guess if you play spawn this could be good? 4 Spawns auto getting AP-4 against marines, +2 attacks against chaff or re-rolling to wound against T6+ models with poor armour saves as well as re-rolling those 1s and 2s for your attack rolls is pretty good. And I suppose TS do lack any fast moving combat units, Spawn could make a comeback.
I suppose this could be used to deny certain Maelstorm VP like slay a character, kill a unit with shooting/CC, if you know the character is going to die anyway. Plus it doesn't cost any RP, perhaps a cunning general might make use of this.
Not too bad so far, still need to see how they handle the Aspiring Champion's smite-lite before we get too excited.
Sadly, you can't use the crystal to send Magnus or the warp-beasty thing into the enemy's face, as it specifies Infantry (just like the Webway stratagem). Otherwise, it would be pretty good. Still, it's a good way to get a unit of Rubrics away from a tarpit unit.
Personally, I think Rubrics are going to make a comeback with the Webway strat. Being able to drop a couple of full squads in rapid-fire range and unload inferno bolters will delete any screens, then Magnus or others can get some charges off. I'm almost tempted to pick up a couple of squads and run them along with a World Eaters detachment to exploit this trick.
ZergSmasher wrote: Sadly, you can't use the crystal to send Magnus or the warp-beasty thing into the enemy's face, as it specifies Infantry (just like the Webway stratagem). Otherwise, it would be pretty good. Still, it's a good way to get a unit of Rubrics away from a tarpit unit.
Personally, I think Rubrics are going to make a comeback with the Webway strat. Being able to drop a couple of full squads in rapid-fire range and unload inferno bolters will delete any screens, then Magnus or others can get some charges off. I'm almost tempted to pick up a couple of squads and run them along with a World Eaters detachment to exploit this trick.
Ah, oh well, not as good as first thought then.
But you are right about rubrics being valid and perhaps necessary part of every TS army rather than just a fluffy unit that is sort of just there. Looks good so far.
I think there's some potential for running Ahriman as a psychic damage dealer. Infernal Gaze, Doombolt, and Tzeentch's Firestorm are pretty poor spells on their own but if you stack them all together I think you can reach mortal wound critical mass and have Ahriman just fly around blasting whatever characters are unfortunate enough to get into his 36" threat range.
Doombolt's warp charge cost is so high I can't really see anyone besides Magnus managing to successfully cast it, or does Ahriman get a bonus to his casting too (don't have my index handy)?
Deep striking 20 rubrics, 30 pink horrors, and a sorcerer terminator for casting, that's some very serious firepower / bodies for not a lot of points all things considered. What is your opponent supposed to do? Your range is 24" on the rubrics and 18" on the pinks, screen against that how again? And put some nurglings down for "mischief makers" and some tougher stuff to weather the enemies attack in case they get 1st Turn (nurgle is great for this obviously) the amount of options we have to us with this next release makes chaos just so powerful, so many viable options...
There’s an argument for deepstriking a horde of Tzaangors and Warptiming them in. Can probably entangle many screens and finish them off in the enemy’s turn. 9” Warptime plus a little conga line tail on the horde enables the caster to avoid DTW coverage.
It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
Wayniac wrote: It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
Yeah, I started my Word Bearers as polytheism at any cost with Marks only on Daemonic units, and before long it became clear that if I wanted to not be a punching bag then Marked and even Cult units were something of a necessity. Shame.
Wayniac wrote: It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
Yeah, I started my Word Bearers as polytheism at any cost with Marks only on Daemonic units, and before long it became clear that if I wanted to not be a punching bag then Marked and even Cult units were something of a necessity. Shame.
That's exactly how I consider Word Bearers too; no marks other than on daemonic things and freely summoning various daemons. BLack Legion, on the other hand, should have mixed marks because they are various warbands and subgroups brought together. And then you have nonsense like Iron Warriors with Slaanesh marks. It's 100% a game thing, only done for power in the game, not because it makes logical sense to do.
Wayniac wrote: It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
My pure Black Legion army does pretty well in 2 variants:
- Heavy gunline list featuring 15 - 23 lascannons. Punishing against elite armies.
- Massed infantry list that uses Tide of Traitors to move 80+ cultists up the board before 3 squads of Obliterators drop behind them. Lets me pick the best spot to fight.
Abaddon's reroll aura trumps the benefits of Legion Traits and mixing detachments. Having rerolls to hit on everything in 6 inches is a huge advantage, you just clump things around him and go for it.
Any thoughts on taking Nurgle Possessed with some Poxbringers in support? With Virulent Touch, VotLW and the Nurgle Locus you have +2 to your wound roll and are averaging a bit more than 2 damage per wound. With Miasma of Pestilence you have a nasty but also resilient unit.
saint_red wrote: Any thoughts on taking Nurgle Possessed with some Poxbringers in support? With Virulent Touch, VotLW and the Nurgle Locus you have +2 to your wound roll and are averaging a bit more than 2 damage per wound. With Miasma of Pestilence you have a nasty but also resilient unit.
Possessed seem to have good synergy with the Herald units in general. Tzeentch are the ones with marginal returns - their Loci don't do much to help the Possessed, but Boon can be really good. Khorne Locus Stratagem is decent if you don't already have a DA but their detachment Locus is wasted on a unit with Icon of Wrath.
Wayniac wrote: It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
Take your agnostic crap and shove it. Quit sitting on the fence and pick a side! Ugh, you agnostics are the worst.
<3
*edit* Woops thought I was in the Daemons tactica! lol
Wayniac wrote: It is really sad GW has basically removed the need to do anything Undivided and, in fact, actively penalizes you for doing it because of the stratagems. I see so many IW/NL/AL with marks all over the place, when these are almost entirely undivided/unmarked legions (IW had some Berserkers as siege troops, but Night Lords actively despise serving the gods), and while I get "herp derp competitive" mindset, it just feels wrong to do. But I get why, there's zero reason to NOT do it. Just seems like there is no place anymore in CSM for someone who wants to actually play an undivided force and still be good.
Take your agnostic crap and shove it. Quit sitting on the fence and pick a side! Ugh, you agnostics are the worst.
<3
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: Is running a double battalion list viable at 1500 points? For a slaaneshi dark raiders army?
Getting to 1500 points its self is definitely achievable. I would think it's fairly viable if you can sneak in at least one DP and 3 Hellflayers. Daemonettes are pretty solid with Herald and Masque support.
My intent waa to stay pure csm if possible as im not the greatest fan of slaaneshi daemons i was toying around with something like this
Battalion
Csm dark raiders
HQ Lord with Jump pack Power Axe Plasma pistol MoS elixir warlord
Sorceror with jump pack force stave plasma pistol MoS prescience warp.time
3 x 12 cultists with pistols and ccws
elites
6 possessed with icon of excess mark of alaaneah
6 possessed icon of excess mark of slaanesh
Heavy suppot
3 slaaneshi obliterators
6 Havocs 4 plasma guns plasma pistol MoS
Dedicated transports
3 x chaos rrhinos with combi bolter
Battalion detachment
Chaos space marines dark raiders
HQ Soeceror with mark of slaavesh force sword bolt pistol delightful agobies death hex
Dark apostle mark of alaanesg plasma pistol power maul
Troops
2 x 12 cultists auto guns 1 heavy stubbed each
10 cam MoS 2 plasma guns combi plasma on the champ
Fast attack
5 x slaaneshi warp talons
Dedixated transport
Chaos rhino with combi bolter havoc launcher
That at least is the core of the list idea i have iv my head.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Hell yeah! One of the best free upgrades I'm aware of. Makes him good at killing a wider range of targets than just weak infantry.
That's why im.considering it
Besides the amusing thought of him killing a warlord eoyh a chain sword
Flames of Spite or Exalted Champion warlord traits could be a nice combo with it, as well. Especially against Imperium targets. Replace his pistol with another chainsword for another chance to trigger those sweet effects.
Man, I think I wanna build a lord with that loadout now.
Ooh
With exalted champion he could have between 6-8 attacks Jesus Christ on a flying meteor with a bomb squig attached
BTW question to alpha legion players how do you not make your army too powerful for casual armies to handle? Right noe im toying around with this list
Battalion detachment alpha legion
HQ Lord with plasma pistol chain sword blade of the hydra warlord
Dark apostle plasma pistol power maul
Troops
3 x 10 ccw pistol cultists 2 dqiafs have a flamer
Elites
10 possessed
10 Bezerkers 5 chain axes
Fast attack
5 c warp talons
Heavy support
3 x oblitrrators Mark of Slaanesh
Battalion detachment
Sorceror with force sword plasmd pistol death hex diabolic strength
Sorceror with force stave jump pack plasma pistol warp time presvience
Troops
2 x 10 auto gun cultists 1 heavy dtubbrt per squad
10 csm 2 plasma guns combi plasma
Heavy support
5 havovs 4 plasma guns plasma pistol power sword on the cup
Dedicated transports
2 x chaos rhinos
Aiming for 1500 points but will need to wait until i get chapter approved tomorrow to make sure this fits on
So I may be in the minority here, but I really like what Tzeentch Daemons bring to the table, yes, their locus is hot garbage, however:
Tzeentchian Obliterators backed a Tzeentchian Daemon DP with Daemonspark and Flickering Fires appears very consistent on paper.
Nurgle locus with Nurgle Obliterators and Veterans of the long war is doing an extra wound on a 5+ roll. Also, Feculent Gnarlmaws allow them to save vs Lascannons on a 3+, which is kind of amazing.
Skarbrand + World Eaters is a beautiful thing. If you really want to be silly, combine it with a Lord of Skulls so he has 5 attacks, spend 3 CP, let him attack twice, pop Daemonforge and he has 30 attacks in melee, re-rolling all wounds and hits. Easily take out two knights in a charge with this.
Fiends + Berzerkers wouldn't be bad either for locking opponents into hand to hand.
I want to like Warp Talons, but I haven't found the will yet, I want to like Possessed (I have enough of them), but they always end up on the cutting room floor, and Mutilators, well, they keep trying to make me like them and fail miserably everytime.
This is currently the list I'm working on for CSM/Daemon syngery, it needs some tweaks though, the Pink Horror squad is kind of a waste, I feel like I should find something better to do with that extra 40 points I had kicking around, but I don't really want to add another drop to the army:
Honestly both lists are pretty solid on paper, but I'm confused as to why you're using an Aux Support Detachment when you can get the Dreadclaw out of one of your Battalion detachments, no reason to lose that CP or burden yourself with the extra detachment that I can see.
Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord on Steed of Slaanesh [10 PL, 106pts]: Bolt pistol, Intoxicating Elixir, Lashing tongue on Steed of Slaanesh, Power fist
Sorcerer with Jump Pack [7 PL, 120pts]: Bolt pistol, Delightful Agonies, Force stave, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience
+ Elites +
Noise Marines [15 PL, 267pts] . Marine w/ Blastmaster: Blastmaster
. 11x Marine w/ Sonic blaster: 11x Sonic Blaster
. Noise Champion: Power sword, Sonic blaster
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [12 PL, 140pts]: 34x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
++ Total: [118 PL, 1998pts] ++
Thank you for sharing - I guess feedback is better served in the Army List forum but as you posted here:
What is the scoring of the tournament?
Why abaddon? Not sure the morale mitigation on the cultist squads is worth honestly. I'm not sure he will add as much as you think since -1 to hit armies (minimum) are pretty much standard. Also it seems to incline you to drop 3x3 oblits around him (black legion as opposed to alpha) which gimps your maneuverability (4 inch move as you don't really want to assault) and could have bad consequences if you miscalculated.
As you do not seem opposed to taking daemons, have you thought cost benefit of pinks vs noise marines? I notice you are bringing a changecaster anyway. Also maybe consider going TSDP as 2 cases and 4++ is kind of best of all worlds atm. If you are running cultists maybe consider getting some DG involved and using poxbringer strat.
yes you right in many of your points
Abbadon is not just for morale mitigation (btw a huge thing with large blob of cultists, i need just 1 survive and with tide of traitors i can get them all back) but rr ANY hit roll is huge, on oblys and noise marines and also on 40 slaanesh cultist who can put out 80+80 shots at 12"; About TS ptince you right but i still need to get the codex so i just using a demon Dp, Only thing about poxwalkers is...if i play them in 2nd list i lost alpha legion trait and sure they have no sinergy witn anything in list, they stay at T3 St3 whole game, ok they are immune to morale and FNP but uhmmm.....maybe i should try fit in a pDg patrol with Thypus could be interesting.
PS: in army list section almost no one reply
This list looks a lot better - the first two detachments are essentially optimized, the weird one with the cultists looks ok but can probably be more optimized - would have to think a bit though
Another option is to give your Daemon Prince the Warlord trait Daemonspark. Make one squad of Oblterators Slaanesh so that you can use the stratagem to have them shoot twice (you can only use it on one squad per turn after all), make the other two Tzeentch, this allows you to re-roll 1s on hits and wounds for them and you can also do stuff like cast Flickering Fires on them (+1 to wound) and/or use Veterans of the Long War on them and get +2 to wound, which under most circumstances should drop them down to a 2+ wound roll, or you split it and have 2 Obliterator squads at +1 to wound and another that's firing twice. Daemonspark will obviously improve your Pink Horrors squad also as an added benefit.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Another option is to give your Daemon Prince the Warlord trait Daemonspark. Make one squad of Oblterators Slaanesh so that you can use the stratagem to have them shoot twice (you can only use it on one squad per turn after all), make the other two Tzeentch, this allows you to re-roll 1s on hits and wounds for them and you can also do stuff like cast Flickering Fires on them (+1 to wound) and/or use Veterans of the Long War on them and get +2 to wound, which under most circumstances should drop them down to a 2+ wound roll, or you split it and have 2 Obliterator squads at +1 to wound and another that's firing twice. Daemonspark will obviously improve your Pink Horrors squad also as an added benefit.
This is an amazing idea and what i had been planning if you go that far you might want to consider adding changeling too for hte 6 up FNP and enjoy!
Also the dice reroll on the oblits damage is criitttiical imho. The number of times i've gotten 9 STR!! -3AP!!! then 1 dmg =-( makes the oblits much less useful
orkswubwub wrote: This is an amazing idea and what i had been planning if you go that far you might want to consider adding changeling too for hte 6 up FNP and enjoy!
I considered that, but wanted the Changecaster's two spells, one for Gaze of Fate (OMG amazing auto-include power), and another to have a non-Smite attack power. However, I think that's kind of a flip of the coin with the Changeling's ability probably, although my faith in abilities that activate on a 6+ is virtually non-existent, but this honestly might be the better option.
I've actually been looking at making similar lists to an Obliterator Spam + Abigail, but I don't feel great about the fact the Legion Trait is so frickin lame.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Another option is to give your Daemon Prince the Warlord trait Daemonspark. Make one squad of Oblterators Slaanesh so that you can use the stratagem to have them shoot twice (you can only use it on one squad per turn after all), make the other two Tzeentch, this allows you to re-roll 1s on hits and wounds for them and you can also do stuff like cast Flickering Fires on them (+1 to wound) and/or use Veterans of the Long War on them and get +2 to wound, which under most circumstances should drop them down to a 2+ wound roll, or you split it and have 2 Obliterator squads at +1 to wound and another that's firing twice. Daemonspark will obviously improve your Pink Horrors squad also as an added benefit.
yes a thing i was thinking about, looks like a strong option, im still not so sure about patrol detachment, durable but pretty slow and maybe i need some extra Cp's considering 3-4 are burned at start for ds 30 horrors+changecaster and sometimes infiltrate cultists, then i need some more for the dead walk again warp surge and cacopony, in 2 turns i can easily burn all the cp's i have. i can save 1 cp using a fluxmaster i dont need to ds it, just move 12" and advance d6 with Dp, ds horrors/oblys within 6" giving me an average treath range of 21".
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've actually been looking at making similar lists to an Obliterator Spam + Abigail, but I don't feel great about the fact the Legion Trait is so frickin lame.
Think about it this way, Abaddon is letting you re-roll 1s and 2s, which is really just not that big a deal. If you were hitting on a 4+ I think it makes a huge difference, but if you have a -1 to hit and roll a 3, Abaddon's not letting you re-roll that.
Don't get me wrong, he's a beast, he's great for babysitting Obliterators and beating up kids that try to push them off the jungle gym, but that's about it really. I think the Daemon Prince is bringing a lot more to the table.
abbadon is useful if you play lot of cultists so they are more reliable and deal lot more damage rerolling 1-2-3's, for oblys should be enough a Dp or a lord. If i play a Dp like above i dont know what to do with my Lord, seems redundant then.
blackmage wrote: abbadon is useful if you play lot of cultists so they are more reliable and deal lot more damage rerolling 1-2-3's, for oblys should be enough a Dp or a lord. If i play a Dp like above i dont know what to do with my Lord, seems redundant then.
Have you considered NOT deepstriking the pinks? You don't really have to, they shoot 18 inches within 2 turns they will essentially be chewing up whatever chaffe is in front. This would effectively save you 3 CP. Again, if you had infinite CP, sure deepstrike the pinks, I'm just not sure it is mandatory with a lower CP list. Bloodletters are a different story because they sit at 5++ and have to walk into charge range. This isn't necessarily the case for pinks.
Also totally agree with the prior poster, abaddon is good, but if you want to go bleeding edge competitive I am not sure he quite makes the cut - even with the morale benefit. He is literally only letting you reroll 1/6 more shots - which translates to even fewer than 1/6 more hits. So probably 1/12 shots more will hit each turn - this translates to < 3 dmg per turn (on a single oblit squad) assuming you are at 3 dmg. You will find a better benefit from prescience and funneling the extra points into other units (my opinion)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I've actually been looking at making similar lists to an Obliterator Spam + Abigail, but I don't feel great about the fact the Legion Trait is so frickin lame.
Think about it this way, Abaddon is letting you re-roll 1s and 2s, which is really just not that big a deal. If you were hitting on a 4+ I think it makes a huge difference, but if you have a -1 to hit and roll a 3, Abaddon's not letting you re-roll that.
Don't get me wrong, he's a beast, he's great for babysitting Obliterators and beating up kids that try to push them off the jungle gym, but that's about it really. I think the Daemon Prince is bringing a lot more to the table.
I was trying to think of doing something where, thanks to his Commisar bubble, infiltrating Cultists with Alpha Legion and backed up by something with good firepower.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: Yup. In 7ed, Possessed and Cultists and regular CSMs was viable.
yes you could not ds horrors, fact is against some armies you need, they can stay too far away from you and overshoot, think about eldar reapers for example, pass 2 turn with 210 pts doing nothing is leathal,then ds force ur opponet to react immediatly to threat you dont give time to focus on horrors and wipe them out. 90 shots rerolling 1 to hit and wound with +1 to wound are scary. they cant stay unanswered too long, they can wreak havok
Desubot wrote: So has anyone tried building a list around renegades (not ig)
asides from bikes and talons i cant think of much.
(also side question can you advance a second time with warp speed?)
Yes you can advance again with warp time it's another move, Hellbrute can be nasty too in renegades with warptime for exemple 8 + d6 + 8 + d6 so around 23 " plus charge distance.
orkswubwub wrote: Also totally agree with the prior poster, abaddon is good, but if you want to go bleeding edge competitive I am not sure he quite makes the cut - even with the morale benefit. He is literally only letting you reroll 1/6 more shots - which translates to even fewer than 1/6 more hits. So probably 1/12 shots more will hit each turn - this translates to < 3 dmg per turn (on a single oblit squad) assuming you are at 3 dmg. You will find a better benefit from prescience and funneling the extra points into other units (my opinion)
I'm not entirely convinced that Abaddon is not competitive. He gives Fearless, rerolls to hit for anything Black Legion, grants 2 CP just for showing up, and is a mini-Primarch in terms of combat ability. Now, taking a full Black Legion army just to use him is not a good idea in competitive play, but I could see him doing some work in soup lists. I've got a friend who ran him at LVO and barely missed the top 8 (lost a game by 1 point to the guy who ended up winning it all).
I'm strongly considering him for my Adepticon list in a detachment with 3 units of Oblits (who will also be Black Legion because rerolls). Having that detachment be pure Black Legion will give him DttFE on a 5+, which will hurt Imperial players if Abby gets into combat with them.
In fact, since I posted this list in the Army Lists subforum and got no replies, I'll post it here as well:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Sorcerer: Force Sword, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Force Stave, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Troops:
2x 3 Nurglings
37 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Detachment 2: Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Abaddon the Despoiler
Heavy Support:
3x 3 Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh <Black Legion>
Detachment 3: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Dark Apostle: Mark of Khorne, The Black Mace <Alpha Legion>
Elites:
2x 9 Berzerkers: 9x Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath <Alpha Legion>
8 Noise Marines: 8x Sonic Blaster <Alpha Legion>
Dedicated Transport:
2x Chaos Rhino <Alpha Legion>
Total 1997 points, 15 units, 11 drops, 10 CP (3 from Battleforged, 3 from Battalion, 1 from Spearhead, 1 from Vanguard, 2 from Abaddon)
Reroll to hits is ridiculously good. It takes you from 66.6% chance to hit to 88.8%, which is an increase of 33.3%. If yoy keep him near 3 squads of oblits he is basically giving you a fourth one.
It's true that you could just take a fourth squad instead for slightly less point but he also gives CP, the fearless aura, is a close combat beast and uses an HQ slot rather than Heavy, which can be relevant for filling out detachments.
saint_red wrote: Reroll to hits is ridiculously good. It takes you from 66.6% chance to hit to 88.8%, which is an increase of 33.3%. If yoy keep him near 3 squads of oblits he is basically giving you a fourth one.
It's true that you could just take a fourth squad instead for slightly less point but he also gives CP, the fearless aura, is a close combat beast and uses an HQ slot rather than Heavy, which can be relevant for filling out detachments.
I would run him myself but I hate the damn model.
Just make your model. I haven't bought a single actual HQ model from GW once and just male my own from bitz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well okay ONCE and it was one of the Necron lords and that's it.
orkswubwub wrote: Also totally agree with the prior poster, abaddon is good, but if you want to go bleeding edge competitive I am not sure he quite makes the cut - even with the morale benefit. He is literally only letting you reroll 1/6 more shots - which translates to even fewer than 1/6 more hits. So probably 1/12 shots more will hit each turn - this translates to < 3 dmg per turn (on a single oblit squad) assuming you are at 3 dmg. You will find a better benefit from prescience and funneling the extra points into other units (my opinion)
I'm not entirely convinced that Abaddon is not competitive. He gives Fearless, rerolls to hit for anything Black Legion, grants 2 CP just for showing up, and is a mini-Primarch in terms of combat ability. Now, taking a full Black Legion army just to use him is not a good idea in competitive play, but I could see him doing some work in soup lists. I've got a friend who ran him at LVO and barely missed the top 8 (lost a game by 1 point to the guy who ended up winning it all).
I'm strongly considering him for my Adepticon list in a detachment with 3 units of Oblits (who will also be Black Legion because rerolls). Having that detachment be pure Black Legion will give him DttFE on a 5+, which will hurt Imperial players if Abby gets into combat with them.
In fact, since I posted this list in the Army Lists subforum and got no replies, I'll post it here as well:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Sorcerer: Force Sword, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Force Stave, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Troops:
2x 3 Nurglings
37 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh <Alpha Legion>
Detachment 2: Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Abaddon the Despoiler
Heavy Support:
3x 3 Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh <Black Legion>
Detachment 3: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Dark Apostle: Mark of Khorne, The Black Mace <Alpha Legion>
Elites:
2x 9 Berzerkers: 9x Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath <Alpha Legion>
8 Noise Marines: 8x Sonic Blaster <Alpha Legion>
Dedicated Transport:
2x Chaos Rhino <Alpha Legion>
Total 1997 points, 15 units, 11 drops, 10 CP (3 from Battleforged, 3 from Battalion, 1 from Spearhead, 1 from Vanguard, 2 from Abaddon)
was him Sam Harley? I ve seen a match of chaos soup with Abbadon against gsc+tyr, i liked that chaos list
In list forum most only lurk and never reply
techsoldaten wrote: Abaddon is the reason you play Black Legion. Could not tell you the mathhammer on the rerolls, but it has a significant impact on all my games.
Is he truly not considered competitive? My impression was primarchs overshadow him enough that no one was really trying.
Primarchs didn't even touch the top 8 at LVO. I have to go through all the lists to see the highest chaos list that ran primarchs. I think top chaos lists involved poxwalker / horrors, PBC and another with Foetid bloat drone spam. Primarch's are much more lethal in FLGS play.
For abaddon - In competitive some armies are running -2 to -3 hit standard (eldar) and at least -1 for every other army. Rerolling hits is amazing but it really gimps this aspect badly. If this is the primary driver of taking him (a 240 point model) then I'm not so sure... I'm happy to be proven wrong - i own abaddon and bought him cause i like the CP etc. I mean, where are people placing him that he is empowering 3x3 oblits (to do on one squad isn't worth his points) and can ALSO charge and be a beast in melee - where he doesn't die and give up warlord CP points - while maximizing his morale benefit. To me - it just seems too much.
techsoldaten wrote: Abaddon is the reason you play Black Legion. Could not tell you the mathhammer on the rerolls, but it has a significant impact on all my games.
Is he truly not considered competitive? My impression was primarchs overshadow him enough that no one was really trying.
Primarchs didn't even touch the top 8 at LVO. I have to go through all the lists to see the highest chaos list that ran primarchs. I think top chaos lists involved poxwalker / horrors, PBC and another with Foetid bloat drone spam. Primarch's are much more lethal in FLGS play.
For abaddon - In competitive some armies are running -2 to -3 hit standard (eldar) and at least -1 for every other army. Rerolling hits is amazing but it really gimps this aspect badly. If this is the primary driver of taking him (a 240 point model) then I'm not so sure... I'm happy to be proven wrong - i own abaddon and bought him cause i like the CP etc. I mean, where are people placing him that he is empowering 3x3 oblits (to do on one squad isn't worth his points) and can ALSO charge and be a beast in melee - where he doesn't die and give up warlord CP points - while maximizing his morale benefit. To me - it just seems too much.
Making the most of his melee capabilities is hard if you focus on the auras. I'd probably design the list around the CP bonus and rerolls as he's actually dangerous for once and people will avoid him like the plague.
lindsay40k wrote: Yup. In 7ed, Possessed and Cultists and regular CSMs was viable.
You're lying to yourself if you believe that.
Well, not to draw out the irrelevant 7ed rabbit hole, but as a Word Bearer with no access to Berzerkers I found ten of them in a Land Raider, with a Sorcerer and Dark Apostle accompanying a blob of Cultists, was a pretty viable starting point to a TAC list. I’d get above 50% victories, and that was good enough for me.
Now that I have access to Zerks and Noise Marines and don’t get ObSec on the Possessed, they’re not quite as quick a shoe-in, but - to get back on topic - I find they’re a pretty viable element in a Daemonkin list. If you’re adding a CSM Vanguard to get some Decimators churching up Epidemius or sharing a Khorne Locus, they’re an ok option for boots on the ground.
Lesson learned in a game today: don't charge a blob of cultists into a blob of Poxwalkers. All I did was feed them. I used Tide of Traitors to regenerate my Cultists, but by then there were like 30 poxwalkers in that blob after they ate a bunch of the cultists. Not good.
But, in other news, Abaddon killed like triple his points worth of Death Guard terminators. 4 Blightlords, 3 Deathshrouds, and Typhus, and if we had had time for another turn (the FLGS was closing for the day), he'd have bagged that last Blightlord. He really is beastly, especially if you can roll 6's for Drach'nyen.
Edit: Okay, not triple, more like double, but still!
One of the tricks in the LVO winning list was to Webway Portal shining spears close to a screen, use a psychic power to move them over the screen, then shoot & assault support units at leisure (doubling up, because ynarri #retch#).
So I'm thinking can chaos imitate this trick? We don't have jetbike units. How much move is really needed to clear a screen? At least 13, 15 for a fully spread out two thick line of 30mm bases.
Best I can see is using renegade warp talons. Come in from reserves with a sorceror, warptime 12+d6, jump the screen and multicharge support units. They won't be able to overwatch. You might not be able to kill much, but they should get locked in combat preventing shooting for a turn.
Doe this work? You lose out on Votlw which sucks. Could still double attack with khorne.
Thinking of supporting this with khorne daemons, so if warptime fails the talons can still reroll charges.
Hey guys, long time Imperial loyalist here, just getting back into the hobby and I feel the taint of heresy spreading within me. I've been gradually working my way through this (very helpful) thread, approx page 60 atm. Trying to get the low down on what works well before I buy anything. I'm considering going Slannesh AL or EC with a focus on footslogging troops and daemon engines.
Regarding the Alpha Legion strat that allows a squad to infiltrate. There was a lot of debate around page 50 or so about how specifically it works. I just want to confirm that the infiltrate squad is placed after the seize roll, and that it can be used multiple times by spending multiple CP.
How has your experience been using this rule?
About the rule that allows a unit of cultists to re enter the board from any table edge. I'm thinking of using a large squad of melee cultists to infiltrate forward, charge and get chewed up, then re enter to disrupt the backline or go for objectives. The idea is to get in their face and distract/disrupt. How would you mitigating morale with such a unit? And again, what have your experiences been attempting this?
I am also pondering running Nurgle NL and spamming Ld reducing weapons and powers. I've seen a couple of people on here that run this, how well does this strat work? I feel that there's a lot of Ld negating auras and abilities around, I can see it getting shut down pretty easily.
Cheers guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm confused as to the fluff reasoning behind why Chaos drop pods have a move value and can fight in CC. I'd understand if when they came down they are immobile and can fire, but moving and CC? What's meant to be actually happening here? Are they hovering, or jumping around?. Is the large FW pod running around on its spike struts?
the_Jakman wrote: Hey guys, long time Imperial loyalist here, just getting back into the hobby and I feel the taint of heresy spreading within me. I've been gradually working my way through this (very helpful) thread, approx page 60 atm. Trying to get the low down on what works well before I buy anything. I'm considering going Slannesh AL or EC with a focus on footslogging troops and daemon engines.
Regarding the Alpha Legion strat that allows a squad to infiltrate. There was a lot of debate around page 50 or so about how specifically it works. I just want to confirm that the infiltrate squad is placed after the seize roll, and that it can be used multiple times by spending multiple CP.
How has your experience been using this rule?
Welcome to the congregation! Slaanesh is a decent monolatrist starting point and AL players are doing really well with their Stratagem. It’s a massive game-changer that out-deploys Scouts and similar.
the_Jakman wrote: About the rule that allows a unit of cultists to re enter the board from any table edge. I'm thinking of using a large squad of melee cultists to infiltrate forward, charge and get chewed up, then re enter to disrupt the backline or go for objectives. The idea is to get in their face and distract/disrupt. How would you mitigating morale with such a unit? And again, what have your experiences been attempting this?
It’s brilliant. Budget 4CP for it. Wait til you see the look on their face when you ignore a Morale check on three surviving Cultists, then recycle the other 37 in their backfield
the_Jakman wrote: I am also pondering running Nurgle NL and spamming Ld reducing weapons and powers. I've seen a couple of people on here that run this, how well does this strat work? I feel that there's a lot of Ld negating auras and abilities around, I can see it getting shut down pretty easily.
I’ve experimented with Nurgle Raptors. I’m not going to say it’s a gimmick or a gambit, but I’m not relying on it in my lists. Best likely payoff is forcing them to spend 2CP to save some important gun.
the_Jakman wrote: Also, I'm confused as to the fluff reasoning behind why Chaos drop pods have a move value and can fight in CC. I'd understand if when they came down they are immobile and can fire, but moving and CC? What's meant to be actually happening here? Are they hovering, or jumping around?. Is the large FW pod running around on its spike struts?
Nope, they’re a VTOL assault boat designed to grab hold of ships on arrival and then extract the units they deliver. They’re also pretty... hungry, and put their claw and jets to offensive use. Seemingly immune to Daemonic interference, but still got banned by Loyalist Command for unreliability. It’s not that we have weird flying drop pods, it’s that the Imperium couldn’t figure out how to keep an assault boat machine spirit sane without nailing its vessel to the landing zone. Like if present day humans couldn’t make a dinghy autopilot behave itself unless the craft lacks harpoons and is designed to permanently anchor on arrival, and all gave up and passed a treaty banning them, except for that one bloc of countries that quite like their angry kill-boats. We kept ’em because (1) no other real options, and (2) ravacious mobile drop pods suit our idiom very nicely
One of the tricks in the LVO winning list was to Webway Portal shining spears close to a screen, use a psychic power to move them over the screen, then shoot & assault support units at leisure (doubling up, because ynarri #retch#).
So I'm thinking can chaos imitate this trick? We don't have jetbike units. How much move is really needed to clear a screen? At least 13, 15 for a fully spread out two thick line of 30mm bases.
Best I can see is using renegade warp talons. Come in from reserves with a sorceror, warptime 12+d6, jump the screen and multicharge support units. They won't be able to overwatch. You might not be able to kill much, but they should get locked in combat preventing shooting for a turn.
Doe this work? You lose out on Votlw which sucks. Could still double attack with khorne.
Thinking of supporting this with khorne daemons, so if warptime fails the talons can still reroll charges.
Nothing wrong with Warp Talons. Solid choice for a Daemonkin type list. If you’re taking a drop claw, they add to an Outriders quite nicely. Tie up shooting for a turn? With FLY and a decenct charge roll, you can quite often entangle a unit and prevent fall back by charging over their heads. Also, try to tap the shoulder of a unit something else is going to charge and get heavily overwatched by:
Thx llndasy and bob. I guessed it was something like vtol, was having a bit of trouble imagining it on the tabletop is all.
Comparing EC Noise Marines with AL Noise Marines as the core of an army. I'm torn between the two, I really like the -1 to hit, but having Obj Sec seems really useful. Which is your preference?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'd just like to confirm that the Changeling's -1 to hit aura only works on Tzeentch Daemons, so wouldn't buff the -1 from Alpha Legion, and wouldn't work on cultists or Hellbrutes.
the_Jakman wrote: Thx llndasy and bob. I guessed it was something like vtol, was having a bit of trouble imagining it on the tabletop is all.
Comparing EC Noise Marines with AL Noise Marines as the core of an army. I'm torn between the two, I really like the -1 to hit, but having Obj Sec seems really useful. Which is your preference?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'd just like to confirm that the Changeling's -1 to hit aura only works on Tzeentch Daemons, so wouldn't buff the -1 from Alpha Legion, and wouldn't work on cultists or Hellbrutes.
Changling doesn't do that anymore, rule has changed. Now it's a 6+++ fnp within 9" for friendly tzeench deamons.
Back to my Abby tried hi with 3 units of obilts last night and its scary... was killing leaman russ tanks at will. All about that mark of slannesh and veterans of the long war strat
One thing i'v not seen mentioned above is his 5+ DTFE... when the obilts were all killed off i just plunged him forwards to see what would happens and against imperials its scary just power fist attacks alone ye averaging 8 attacks hitting on 2's with a re-roll.
Also gave horrors a bash in the same list, with flickering flames on and a bit of smite they were taking down chimeras and wyvens!
Obsec on Noise Marines is not as good as -1 AND access to forward operatives IMO. Me, I'm Word Bearers, and dropping them out a claw is plenty enough to make them lethal.
The best way to fill out battalions is cultists if you have enough of them in my book.
That -1 to be hit on a unit of Noise Marines in cover makes them very durable and they have the range to put down some firepower. I really like Alpha Legion Noise Marines and hell brutes. A Vanguard is hard to pass up.
i would have a 2000pt tournament but looks like will be pretty restrictive, i can have only 2 detachements ( i cant repeat) and i must choose them from
battalion
patrol
supreme command
i was thinking about a chaos battalion
abbadon
sorcerer
dreadclaw drop pod
about 100 cultists
8 noise with sonic blaster
3 tz oblys
3 sl onlys
then a supreme Ts command
Ahriman on disk
and two Ts Dp's
Im not sure if that's aggressive enough, i have bodies but they are pretty fragile at 2000 pts. maybe use berzy and not noise? Demons battalion if i want play with Ds seems like i will not have enough cp's, thanks if someone can give me some ideas.
-1 to be hit on NMs adds another edge to their sword. They’re so shooty, they’ve got to be dealt with. They’ve probably just killed everything within slapping distance, so dakka’s probably the only solution. When you kill them, they shoot AGAIN, but you’ve probably still got to shoot them as they’ll only Endless Cacophony if you leave them alone. And to top it all, an extra sixth of your rolls are going to miss! Really adds to the intensity of threat overload.
Drop twenty in a Kharybdis and Warptime it over the heads of that screen to play Unicron. Go on, you know you want to.
techsoldaten wrote: Abaddon is the reason you play Black Legion. Could not tell you the mathhammer on the rerolls, but it has a significant impact on all my games.
Is he truly not considered competitive? My impression was primarchs overshadow him enough that no one was really trying.
For abaddon - In competitive some armies are running -2 to -3 hit standard (eldar) and at least -1 for every other army. Rerolling hits is amazing but it really gimps this aspect badly. If this is the primary driver of taking him (a 240 point model) then I'm not so sure... I'm happy to be proven wrong - i own abaddon and bought him cause i like the CP etc. I mean, where are people placing him that he is empowering 3x3 oblits (to do on one squad isn't worth his points) and can ALSO charge and be a beast in melee - where he doesn't die and give up warlord CP points - while maximizing his morale benefit. To me - it just seems too much.
He is still boosting your damage by 33.3% (for a 3+ model) regardless of -1 or -2 to hit. Without modifiers to hit you go from 66.6% -> 88.8%, if your enemy has -2 to hit you go from 33.3% -> 44.4%. Both are increases of 1/3.
The reason Abaddon isn't competitive is because he is a Black Legion unit and their relic, trait and stratagem are terrible, bad and average respectively. If he buffed Alpha Legion in the same way you would see him everywhere.
Ok so I've written up a rough 1500pt battalion to start as the core of my new army. All Slanneshi Alpha Legion. I'm going off Battlescribe, will be picking up my book tomorrow, so I don't have relics etc.
Prince with wings, talons, warp bolter
Sorcerer with jump pack
3x 10 Cultists
3x 10 Noise Marines with full sonic/blast
2x 2 Obliterators.
For 2000pts I'll fill out the oblit squads and add as many bezerkers as I can.
So yeah, the plan is pretty self explanatory. Infiltrate a squad or two of marines into midfield cover, take advantage of the strategum to bring a cultist squad from reserve and DS oblits.
Any comments welcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll probably run the oblits as 3 and 1, to maximize the double fire strategum.
Oblits can only come in units of 3 now, you can't take them any smaller or larger than that.
Otherwise I think that should be a decent core, but your NMs could be vulnerable to deep strikers if you infiltrate them up the field. You also need to think about what psychic powers to give to your sorc and DP. One of them should have Warptime to send the DP up the board on turn 1, and the other should probably take something like Death Hex or Prescience.
the_Jakman wrote: Ok so I've written up a rough 1500pt battalion to start as the core of my new army. All Slanneshi Alpha Legion. I'm going off Battlescribe, will be picking up my book tomorrow, so I don't have relics etc.
Prince with wings, talons, warp bolter
Sorcerer with jump pack
3x 10 Cultists
3x 10 Noise Marines with full sonic/blast
2x 2 Obliterators.
For 2000pts I'll fill out the oblit squads and add as many bezerkers as I can.
So yeah, the plan is pretty self explanatory. Infiltrate a squad or two of marines into midfield cover, take advantage of the strategum to bring a cultist squad from reserve and DS oblits.
Any comments welcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll probably run the oblits as 3 and 1, to maximize the double fire strategum.
my experience with noise.... play them with dreadclaw or use a large unit, if you want use them at full strengt shoot----stratagem shoot again----shoot when they die, imho.
Yeah, you do not want to loose NMs’ first salvo. At the very least, try to protect them in Rhinos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 3 and 1 Obliterators means having an under-strength unit, that will cost you 1CP. Slaaneshi CSM armies consume a lot of CP, I think you’ll get more gun with a single unit of three and an extra run of VotLW - or a re-roll to make the three’s shots a high AP or damage.
If you’re taking Slaaneshi Oblits and/or Noise Marines, you’ll do well to reserve 2-3 CP for an Endless Cacophony at the least, and preferably a VotLW on top of that (it applies to both sets of shooting). Also 20 NMs with two blasters is better than 2x10 with four blasters - it makes for a truly brutal EC.
With that budgeted, you can still get two Forward Operatives. Drop the VotLW and you’ve got enough for a Tide of Traitors. No spare CP for emergencies, but it’s still a strong plan.
Hi everyone.
Saw some sweet FW models and thought I'd make a small army of Emperor's Children using the pre-heresy scheme?
It seems due to being affiliated with Slaanesh they have a delicate, perfectionist feel to them in different ways.
I wanted to go with the straight up 'perfectionists' theme thus having picked the pre-heresy scheme (purple/gold) to reflect that.
(There shouldn't be a problem with that right?)
Anyways, I've written up a 1000 point list just to draft a base idea of my army.
Haven't yet picked up the codex so I am lacking overall knowledge- any help would be great!
Spoiler:
Emperor's Children
Battalion Detachment (3 CP)
HQ:
* Daemon Prince with Wings [180pts]
+ Warlord
+ Mark of Slaanesh
+ Stimulated by Pain
+ Intoxicating Elixir
+ Malefic Talons
* Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor [124pts]
+ Mark of Slaanesh
+ Combi-Plasma / Power Maul
TROOPS:
* 3x Noise Marine Squads [105pts x 3 = 315pt]
+ Consists of 1x Noise Champion with Sonic Blaster / Doom Siren
+ 4x Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters.
ELITES:
* Chaos Terminator Squad [290pts]
+ Consists of 1x Chaos Terminator Champion with Combi-plasma / Power Fist
+ 4x Chaos Terminators with Combi-plasma / Power Fist
+ Mark of Slaanesh
DEDICATED TRANSPORT:
* Chaos Rhino [85pts]
+ Combi-bolters
+ Havoc Launcher
+ Mark of Slaanesh
TOTAL: 994pts
Chaos Lord with the Termies to deal as much damage possible using the Endless Cacophony stratagem with the NMs providing firepower while the DP goes around doing what he does best...
I don't have a lot of experience with the game in general but that's what I'm hoping this list can do.
^ You’ve got a very modest model count, there. You might get results from switching out a NM Squad for twenty Cultists. After spending 3CP on VotLW and Endless Cacophony, you’ll have three left - if I were your opponent, I’d try to kick the terminators’ teeth out to prevent a second volley, and recycling a load of dead Cultists to drop them in your opponent’s backfield is a good move. It’ll leave you a spare CP for a key charge or save. Also, this would enable all the Noise Marines to hide from first turn shooting in the Rhino.
You might find Flames of Spite more useful on your DP. Extra Mortal Wounds on every six rather than extra attacks if your victim gets to punch back at you works well with a high attack model.
What psychic power are you thinking about for the DP? Prescience would make your Terminators a lot safer, Warptime would give them a chance to charge (or the DP a potential first turn charge, if your opponent makes a terrible mistake), Diabolical Strength would super-charge your DP.
You may find the Chaos Lord is surplus to requirements. The DP wants to be hiding behind units to avoid getting targeted, which suggests leapfrogging with the teleporting Terminators (and maybe casting on them), who’ll gain re-rolls from him. I’m a big fan of the threat radius of a sorcerer or Lord on Steed. (Murder Sword is an interesting weapon on the latter. Quite the scarecrow.)
What are people's opinions on teaming up a Fire Raptor with Ahriman to get that gunship on a 5++ with -2 to hit the Raptor and +1 to the raptor's shooting?
mrhappyface wrote: What are people's opinions on teaming up a Fire Raptor with Ahriman to get that gunship on a 5++ with -2 to hit the Raptor and +1 to the raptor's shooting?
Its quite a lot of eggs in one basket but if anyone needed a +1 to hit a -2 to hit mod and a 5++ its probably a fire raptor
Commentary like this is exactly why I come to dakka. Thanks heaps my dudes. At page 100 of this tactica now,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone used Arkos at all? He infiltrates, +1CP, +1 to advance and charge rolls. Seems like he'd be good with infiltrating zerkers. I'm not sure if 124pts is worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok so updated list to take into account your advice.
DP with Talons, Warp bolter
Jump Sorc
1x 24 cultists
2x 10 cultists
20x Noise Marines with full sonic and icon
3x Obliterators
Kharybdis
2 points shy of 1500,
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I got my codex yesterday, man is it cool!
@the_Jakman - that’s a pretty solid list. Think you’ll be quite pleased if you Warptime that Kharybdis, just save some Loyalist tears for the rest of us
You might wanna trade a few of those Cultists for a melee weapon on the Noise Marine Champion. Nothing extreme, just that the unit is best dealt with by tarpitting and we don’t want that DP and KAC to be distracted by having to counter-charge.
mrhappyface wrote: What are people's opinions on teaming up a Fire Raptor with Ahriman to get that gunship on a 5++ with -2 to hit the Raptor and +1 to the raptor's shooting?
I don't understand why you wanna build combos like that with all the Dark Reapers running rampant.
mrhappyface wrote: What are people's opinions on teaming up a Fire Raptor with Ahriman to get that gunship on a 5++ with -2 to hit the Raptor and +1 to the raptor's shooting?
I don't understand why you wanna build combos like that with all the Dark Reapers running rampant.
because they dont play competitive ,so maybe they miss -2 against them means just nothing...
What would you run for a flying circus army these days? I've heard that TS princes are all around better than the other options available, but what would you use to support an army of about 5 Daemon princes with all the chaos codexes being options?
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Rules: Despoilers of the Galaxy
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Abaddon the Despoiler: Drach'nyen, Talon of Horus, +2CP
+ Flyer +
Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship: Hellstrike missiles, Twin avenger bolt cannon, 2x Quad heavy bolter
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Tzeentch, Maulerfiend fists
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Tzeentch, Maulerfiend fists
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Tzeentch, Maulerfiend fists
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ HQ +
Changecaster: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger, Smite, The Impossible Robe
Changecaster: Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger, Smite
+ Elites +
5x Flamer, 1x Pyrocaster
+ Troops +
10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
9 CP for shoot twice Oblits, deepstrike flamers and Veteran of Long War
mrhappyface wrote: What are people's opinions on teaming up a Fire Raptor with Ahriman to get that gunship on a 5++ with -2 to hit the Raptor and +1 to the raptor's shooting?
I don't understand why you wanna build combos like that with all the Dark Reapers running rampant.
Dark reapers will likely beat you no matter what. Best build to beat everyone else
lucas wrote: What would you run for a flying circus army these days? I've heard that TS princes are all around better than the other options available, but what would you use to support an army of about 5 Daemon princes with all the chaos codexes being options?
I would absolutely run a Tzeentch Chaos Daemons Vanguard or Battalion. Flamers and Horrors are your answer to chafe - Flamers can keep pace and screen, 3x20 Horrors self-fund their deep strikes. But moreover, it gives you access to Locus of Conjuration - get a Fateskimmer to do multi-track drifting, and it can give most of your DPs re-rolls on their casting, as well as the +1str.
Bonus: sometimes you’ll roll well on Locus of Trickery and troll the everloving flip out of the counter-attack.
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Rules: Despoilers of the Galaxy
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Abaddon the Despoiler: Drach'nyen, Talon of Horus, +2CP
+ Flyer +
Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship: Hellstrike missiles, Twin avenger bolt cannon, 2x Quad heavy bolter
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Tzeentch, Maulerfiend fists
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Tzeentch, Maulerfiend fists
Maulerfiend: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Tzeentch, Maulerfiend fists
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ HQ +
Changecaster: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger, Smite, The Impossible Robe
Changecaster: Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger, Smite
+ Elites +
5x Flamer, 1x Pyrocaster
+ Troops +
10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
9 CP for shoot twice Oblits, deepstrike flamers and Veteran of Long War
My experience with maulers has been pretty average, when comparing them to other walkers like defilers or slaughterers. They're sadly not as quick as they used to be, and I find they got shot up pretty quick, which really neuters their strength and limits them to killing only infantry. They're not as durable or punchy as defilers (who can also shoot as a bonus), and they're not nearly as fast or killy as blood slaughterers, or as cheap as fist-dreads, which leaves them in a bit of a lackluster middle ground. To shine, they need to be used in multiples, warptimed, and babysat by an apostle, but the same could be said for basically any of the assault walkers. Chaos has no shortage of punchy robots, and I'm just not sure what maulerfiends really bring to the table. They're not bad by any means, but they're missing some pizaaz.
I sold 2 of my 3 maulerfiends. With daemonforge, they can be okay, but I think I’d rather just take shooty units or blood slaughterers or... just about anything.
mrhappyface wrote: What are people's opinions on teaming up a Fire Raptor with Ahriman to get that gunship on a 5++ with -2 to hit the Raptor and +1 to the raptor's shooting?
I don't understand why you wanna build combos like that with all the Dark Reapers running rampant.
Perhaps because not everyone is a dark reaper spammer? Near me I only know 1 Eldar player and whilst he does use Dark Reapers, he doesn't spam them - even in competitive games.
Versus any army that isn't Dark Reaper spam it's still a nasty combo and even against Dark Reaper spam, if you get 1st turn, you'll delete 2-3 DR units with the Raptor alone which already makes the Raptor's points back (3-4 if you took autocannons instead). Versus SM your looking at 60 ML shots, Guard need 69 Lascannon shots, Orks are close to screwed since they can't shoot or charge it, etc.
If you want Dark Reaper counter, take a Tzeentch Daemon detachment with your TS one and drown the DR in flame.
lucas wrote: What would you run for a flying circus army these days? I've heard that TS princes are all around better than the other options available, but what would you use to support an army of about 5 Daemon princes with all the chaos codexes being options?
lot of bodies and some support by obliterators if possible.
mrhappyface wrote: What are people's opinions on teaming up a Fire Raptor with Ahriman to get that gunship on a 5++ with -2 to hit the Raptor and +1 to the raptor's shooting?
I don't understand why you wanna build combos like that with all the Dark Reapers running rampant.
Perhaps because not everyone is a dark reaper spammer? Near me I only know 1 Eldar player and whilst he does use Dark Reapers, he doesn't spam them - even in competitive games.
Versus any army that isn't Dark Reaper spam it's still a nasty combo and even against Dark Reaper spam, if you get 1st turn, you'll delete 2-3 DR units with the Raptor alone which already makes the Raptor's points back (3-4 if you took autocannons instead). Versus SM your looking at 60 ML shots, Guard need 69 Lascannon shots, Orks are close to screwed since they can't shoot or charge it, etc.
If you want Dark Reaper counter, take a Tzeentch Daemon detachment with your TS one and drown the DR in flame.
if you think you can delete 2-3 DR first turn mean you really dont know how they play, never heard of waveserpents? If an eldar player start disembarked against someone playing a SR, hoping in 1st turn he need to be slapped hard , then they disembark move and shoot without any penalty get guide and doom fire off....and you say good bye to your SR most of times
Has anybody tried dropping twenty Rubrics with Flamers out of a Kharybdis? If you can ensure Warptime - Magnus comes to mind - that could be a horrific payload.
lindsay40k wrote: Has anybody tried dropping twenty Rubrics with Flamers out of a Kharybdis? If you can ensure Warptime - Magnus comes to mind - that could be a horrific payload.
The only problem with that is that you *must* Warptime them, if you don't you have 20 jack offs standing 9" away with 8" range weapons. One successful deny and that's what you have. Or one Kronos player spends a CP and your chances of Warptime go bye bye (situational, yes, but it happened to me at LVO, I'm triggering just thinking about it).
Kronos is a valid concern on any ‘this power must succeed’ play and we should probably expect one or two more ultra-DTW things to pop up as codices drop :/
Has anyone had good success with chaos monster mash? Morty, Magnus, and a knight is only around 1300pts which leaves enough room for a demon battalion. Seems very self sufficient and powerful on paper.
I love Khorne as a theme, and never go to tournaments. Mark of Khorne may be useless on Havocs, but dang it, blood for the blood god!
