Helped my friend plan her next Space Wolf purchases. Can't BELIEVE what Wolf Guard get; Thunder Hammer, Combi-Plasma, AND Storm Shield, for only three Power more than Chosen. Wow
Automatically Appended Next Post: And she complains that I always take Death Hex
Anyone tried a list with Lord of Skulls in it? I have one and really love the model. Just that it still seems too expensive for its points, despite having great synergy with the demonforge strategem.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone tried a list with Lord of Skulls in it? I have one and really love the model. Just that it still seems too expensive for its points, despite having great synergy with the demonforge strategem.
Lord of Skulls has the same disadvantages as an Imperial Knight. it's a points sink, a magnet for high damage / AP negative weapons, and it doesn't have the best save for a vehicle of that size. It has to survive several rounds of shooting making it's way across the board, which usually means it's crippled by the time it's in position to do anything scary.
This is a unit that tries to get by on a massive amount of wounds. Too many armies have T8+ shooting for it to shrug off the amount of damage it would need to be effective. Even without big guns, it's not hard to counter. I have seen games where the LoS does get into combat but only gets to fight the chaff.
Not saying it's bad, it's more meh. I do like the Hades Gatling Cannon / Skullhurler combination and can see how this could put some hurt on an opponent.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone tried a list with Lord of Skulls in it? I have one and really love the model. Just that it still seems too expensive for its points, despite having great synergy with the demonforge strategem.
I've had a bit of luck using LOS in the following list:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone tried a list with Lord of Skulls in it? I have one and really love the model. Just that it still seems too expensive for its points, despite having great synergy with the demonforge strategem.
Lord of Skulls has the same disadvantages as an Imperial Knight. it's a points sink, a magnet for high damage / AP negative weapons, and it doesn't have the best save for a vehicle of that size. It has to survive several rounds of shooting making it's way across the board, which usually means it's crippled by the time it's in position to do anything scary.
This is a unit that tries to get by on a massive amount of wounds. Too many armies have T8+ shooting for it to shrug off the amount of damage it would need to be effective. Even without big guns, it's not hard to counter. I have seen games where the LoS does get into combat but only gets to fight the chaff.
Not saying it's bad, it's more meh. I do like the Hades Gatling Cannon / Skullhurler combination and can see how this could put some hurt on an opponent.
One major advantage it has over the knight is that it never degrades in accuracy and goes up in attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about a list with deathguard plague burst crawlers and a lord of skulls as a centre piece, with a warpsmith behind it for repair. Then surround with cultists for bubble wrap. (Or Typhus with pox walkers since I have a dathguard detachment anyway).
The idea would be to just sit back and shoot, but the big LOS would serve to countercharge anything that dares to come close.
I was also thinking of having a squad or two of slanaash havocs with either lascannons to use that slanaash strategem to make a unit shoot twice too. And the LOS will then use daemonforge.
So, a lot of heavy shooting. And bascially characters and the LOS to countercharge anything that might break through the cultist bubblewrap screen,
I use a Lord of Skulls in an Iron Warriors list and it performs pretty well as a big noisy distraction that soaks up fire so my more important stuff can get in position. It takes the skullhurler and ichor cannon to save a ton of points, since the axe does all the work anyway. A sorcerer on a bike hugs its butt and Warptimes it 20” across the board turn 1. Daemonforge and Prescience help out in the melee phase, and the Iron Warriors stratagem gives it a 6+ FNP which helps it survive the first turn.
LoS is ~100 points more, has more wounds, more Dakka, and gains attacks as it loses wounds.
Kytan has 1 more attack (at full wounds, then it loses them progressively) 2” more movement, and can advance 2d6”...
I desperately want the Kytan to be the better choice because it looks so much cooler and it’s cheaper, but IMO those ~100 points on the LoS are worth it.
The Kytan should also gain attacks as it loses wounds. They’re thematically different tiers of the same unit. FW really lets me down sometimes.
Nineteen Poxwalkers and a Tallyman in a Kharybdis. Typhus with Putrefaction & Vitality, and a CSM Sorcerer with Jump Pack, Warptime, and Miasma dropping in next to the Tallyman, and the Poxwalkers maintaining a conga line to them. Maybe VOTLW at the start of the Fight phase if they’re entangled with screening units with tasty brains and Typhus didn’t get his spells off. Place newly created Poxwalkers behind engaged units to prevent Fall Back moves, and to create tentacles that can engage other units like that Leman Russ or Land Raider without taking Overwatch. The conga line can be pretty long if it keeps the psykers out of DTW range. Next turn, The Dead Walk Again and things get really ugly. Worth it?
Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship:
Twin avenger bolt cannon, Quad heavy bolters, 2x Quad heavy bolter and 2x Twin lascannon
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Alpha Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack:
Blade of the Hydra, Chainsword, Combi-bolter, Frag & Krak grenades, Mark of Slaanesh
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack:
Combi-bolter, Frag & Krak grenades, Mark of Slaanesh, Power fist
+ Troops +
Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, Smite
Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, Smite
Horrors: Blue Horror, 9x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, Smite
+ Heavy Support +
3x Obliterator: 3x Fleshmetal guns, Mark of Slaanesh
3x Obliterator: 3x Fleshmetal guns, Mark of Slaanesh
Only 6 CP, but they're mainly going to be used for Endless Cacaphony on the Oblits. If I can get two turns of that, I'd be tickled pink. The rest would be re-rolls.
I'm just struggling who's going to be my Warlord. Magnus/Morty goes down in most of my games... so, one of the Lord would have to carry that title I'm thinking...
Arachnofiend wrote: How are you getting Endless Cacophony? Your Battalion detachment has Horrors in it.
Horrors (and plaguebearer, 'letters and 'nettes) can be added as troops in a CSM detachment. It's just that they never benefit from the CSM auras/strategems.
Arachnofiend wrote: How are you getting Endless Cacophony? Your Battalion detachment has Horrors in it.
Horrors (and plaguebearer, 'letters and 'nettes) can be added as troops in a CSM detachment. It's just that they never benefit from the CSM auras/strategems.
No, they can't. Daemons lack the <Legion> keyword, so putting them in a detachment means it is not a <Legion> detachment. They would need a specific rule saying that they don't break the detachment like Fabius Bile gets.
Arachnofiend wrote: No, they can't. Daemons lack the <Legion> keyword, so putting them in a detachment means it is not a <Legion> detachment. They would need a specific rule saying that they don't break the detachment like Fabius Bile gets.
Figures.
What the f'n point of having those demons then?
I can prolly live w/o the Endless Cacaphony... as, I need some fracking troops for obj scorings.
What warlord trait generally works best in most scenarios for Daemon Princes? I feel like Flames of Spite is an excellent choice with Malefic Talons, but Eternal Vendetta seems about as good or better against SM armies. Unholy Fortitude also seems like a can't go wrong choice too. Thoughts?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: What warlord trait generally works best in most scenarios for Daemon Princes? I feel like Flames of Spite is an excellent choice with Malefic Talons, but Eternal Vendetta seems about as good or better against SM armies. Unholy Fortitude also seems like a can't go wrong choice too. Thoughts?
EV is probably worth it against Marines, but I find myself taking Voice of Lorgar more often to save having a Chaos Lord drop in with my Plasma Chosen. FoS... I dunno, it's only one or two extra wounds. Unless you've failed to Death Hex a 3++, Hatred Incarnate is possibly the better option? Either way, I'd sooner have Fortitude.
I felt like FoS would be useful against characters specifically especially if you don't have Death Hex handy or if you don't get it off but I can see EV/HI being a little more useful in dealing damage in a general sense. Are you finding DPs to be resilient at all? If not, maybe UF should warrant heavier consideration.
Objective Secured is a super non-rule. If the opponent wants a unit dead, it'll be dead regardless. Dead units can't use super objective holding.
That's not true at all. ObSec is fantastic. It makes moving onto and scoring objectives in a single turn much easier and will force your enemy to kill your troops rather than more juicy targets.
Yeah, if just one ObSec model survives some nasty unit’s attack, Insane Bravery will keep the objective. Fall back, charge something else in. Of course, if it’s kill points, this is all moot
Objective Secured is a super non-rule. If the opponent wants a unit dead, it'll be dead regardless. Dead units can't use super objective holding.
That's not true at all. ObSec is fantastic. It makes moving onto and scoring objectives in a single turn much easier and will force your enemy to kill your troops rather than more juicy targets.
You're already running Cultists for screening and CP generation, and not much else.
It's really not a great bonus. Basing an army around it is bound to lose more often than not.
I think it is mostly useful in Maelstrom. Games where you’re generating VPs and hastening their turnover by tagging an objective, not holding it until the end. But hey, if it’s not a tournament and Smite spam time, you’re probably already segregating your HA and CDs for the Legion bonuses and anticipated perks for the warpkin.
Is anyone fielding the platoon of Malefic Lords in friendly/casual play? Seems like we’re strong enough, what with Noise Marines, Obliterators, and Kharybdis, without having to go full soup to stand a chance.
PS I am finding CSM characters on Steed of Slaanesh to be fantastic in Power Level games. Double movement, Advance and charge, bigger base for aura reach, +1W, +1A, all for +1PL, seriously get yourself a box of Hellstriders and kitbash these guys, we’ve probably got a good five years before the Indices are declared apocrypha. Got several ways to give a Murder Sword Lord six or seven attacks - with a reliable threat radius of 20”, that’s a hell of a scarecrow when there’s a scary character getting in the Teleportarium.
LoS is ~100 points more, has more wounds, more Dakka, and gains attacks as it loses wounds.
Kytan has 1 more attack (at full wounds, then it loses them progressively) 2” more movement, and can advance 2d6”...
I desperately want the Kytan to be the better choice because it looks so much cooler and it’s cheaper, but IMO those ~100 points on the LoS are worth it.
The Kytan should also gain attacks as it loses wounds. They’re thematically different tiers of the same unit. FW really lets me down sometimes.
Is a minimum cost LoS (521 points) still better than a Kytan? Both would go well with the Alpha Legion trait
LoS is ~100 points more, has more wounds, more Dakka, and gains attacks as it loses wounds.
Kytan has 1 more attack (at full wounds, then it loses them progressively) 2” more movement, and can advance 2d6”...
I desperately want the Kytan to be the better choice because it looks so much cooler and it’s cheaper, but IMO those ~100 points on the LoS are worth it.
The Kytan should also gain attacks as it loses wounds. They’re thematically different tiers of the same unit. FW really lets me down sometimes.
Is a minimum cost LoS (521 points) still better than a Kytan? Both would go well with the Alpha Legion trait
Traits only apply to infantry, Bikes, and Helbrutes
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: So, how does Khorne armies fare ? Especially World Eaters armies ? I have always been interested in collecting a Khorne army.
Well, they get access to Obliterators, Plasma Chosen, Decimators, Contemptors, Spartans, Cultists, and Havocs. And of course the hot topics - LoS and Kytan. DPs are strong but +1A is not as good as psychic. Oh, and Dreadclaw and Kharybdis.
So, a fine roster to choose from, albeit one that massively benefits from a detachment bringing Warptime, Death Hex, and Prescience.
LoS is ~100 points more, has more wounds, more Dakka, and gains attacks as it loses wounds.
Kytan has 1 more attack (at full wounds, then it loses them progressively) 2” more movement, and can advance 2d6”...
I desperately want the Kytan to be the better choice because it looks so much cooler and it’s cheaper, but IMO those ~100 points on the LoS are worth it.
The Kytan should also gain attacks as it loses wounds. They’re thematically different tiers of the same unit. FW really lets me down sometimes.
Is a minimum cost LoS (521 points) still better than a Kytan? Both would go well with the Alpha Legion trait
Traits only apply to infantry, Bikes, and Helbrutes
lindsay40k wrote: I think it is mostly useful in Maelstrom. Games where you’re generating VPs and hastening their turnover by tagging an objective, not holding it until the end. But hey, if it’s not a tournament and Smite spam time, you’re probably already segregating your HA and CDs for the Legion bonuses and anticipated perks for the warpkin.
Is anyone fielding the platoon of Malefic Lords in friendly/casual play? Seems like we’re strong enough, what with Noise Marines, Obliterators, and Kharybdis, without having to go full soup to stand a chance.
PS I am finding CSM characters on Steed of Slaanesh to be fantastic in Power Level games. Double movement, Advance and charge, bigger base for aura reach, +1W, +1A, all for +1PL, seriously get yourself a box of Hellstriders and kitbash these guys, we’ve probably got a good five years before the Indices are declared apocrypha. Got several ways to give a Murder Sword Lord six or seven attacks - with a reliable threat radius of 20”, that’s a hell of a scarecrow when there’s a scary character getting in the Teleportarium.
Zid wrote: How does everyone find Forgefiends? they suck or worth trying out? I love the model
I like the model too, however it seems that they suck, as they have a mediocre BS and no way to negate the heavy weapon penalty. If you can spam the daemonforge stratagem, they might be get thier points back in damage, but you'd be wasting a lot of CP for it.
I'd love to field a triple plasmafiend, but paying more for less reliable guns is just stupid. I think they forgot to give the forgefiend and defiler some form of mitageting the heavy weapon penalty.
Zid wrote: How does everyone find Forgefiends? they suck or worth trying out? I love the model
I am going to run a forgefiend in my next game with chaos. Doing a 50/50 half Chaos Renegade chapter Tsons and half Chaos Deamons. Personally I think Nurgle would help better but I am running it fluffy so Tsons and deamons it is. Will be going against new Tyranids so.... I will post up how it gos lol.
So I just watched some of the New nids battle reports, and it seems like we're gonna need to make room for a few flamers. The gaunt screens with all the buffs they can get look like they're brutally hard to kill at ranged.... this is where templates would be nice :/
Zid wrote: How does everyone find Forgefiends? they suck or worth trying out? I love the model
I like the model too, however it seems that they suck, as they have a mediocre BS and no way to negate the heavy weapon penalty. If you can spam the daemonforge stratagem, they might be get thier points back in damage, but you'd be wasting a lot of CP for it.
I'd love to field a triple plasmafiend, but paying more for less reliable guns is just stupid. I think they forgot to give the forgefiend and defiler some form of mitageting the heavy weapon penalty.
This is true... Sigh. I LOVE the model so much, I just wanna use two and nugle em' up all nurgly and eat some orks with them :( Guess I'll pass on buying a couple for now
I don't know about that, with nurgle and a deamon detachment with access to deamon nurgle powers you get access to the heal d3 wounds spell which is awesome. Also with autocannons it can sit with a hellbrute with ranged setup for 8 autocannon shots, which even with its bad bs (which 4+ isn't bad, ask any ork player what bad bs looks like) you can stick a cheap chaos lord near it for reroll 1's. So reroll 1's, hit on 4+ (or 5+ if moving), heal 1 wound a turn plus d3 with the spell, and deamonforge is only 1 CP, that's not a big deal. That's one bad Dino. Add a few hellbrutes in with it to run flank and that's a solid fire line for a deamon army which can then spam nurglings and deamonettes and bloodthirsters for an attack point.
If I hadn't painted my forgefiend as tzeentch that's how I would be running it right now.
Azuza001 wrote: I don't know about that, with nurgle and a deamon detachment with access to deamon nurgle powers you get access to the heal d3 wounds spell which is awesome. Also with autocannons it can sit with a hellbrute with ranged setup for 8 autocannon shots, which even with its bad bs (which 4+ isn't bad, ask any ork player what bad bs looks like) you can stick a cheap chaos lord near it for reroll 1's. So reroll 1's, hit on 4+ (or 5+ if moving), heal 1 wound a turn plus d3 with the spell, and deamonforge is only 1 CP, that's not a big deal. That's one bad Dino. Add a few hellbrutes in with it to run flank and that's a solid fire line for a deamon army which can then spam nurglings and deamonettes and bloodthirsters for an attack point.
If I hadn't painted my forgefiend as tzeentch that's how I would be running it right now.
The large gribbles are less of an issue than the small ones. I was reading that one of the Thropes gives a wide -1 to hit buff to all the nid's, and one of the hive fleets also gets +1 armor (which I could be wrong here). Its the -1 to hit at ranged that has me a bit worried, because if we move at all a lot of our stuff will be hitting on 6's.
Oh I should note that it doesn't work in CC, but you wanna knock out as many hits as possible before they get to ya
Zid wrote: How does everyone find Forgefiends? they suck or worth trying out? I love the model
I have one painted up, and yes, I love the model. But every time i used it, it has been a disappointment. If its the most dangerous shooting threat, it gets taken quite quickly. And actually, its not that deadly in shooting either unless you are aiming at something with a lousy save. If I weren't trying to be very competitive, I think taking just one wouldn't gimp your list that much. Probably not difficult to have other more deadly threats in your list so that your opponent will prioritise those over your forgefiend. Then use daemon forge on it. If it lives to round two or three and does some decent shooting, then you should be satisfied already.
Only if you are going for fluffy and not trying to min max. I mean, taking one forgefiend in an already good list that complements the shooting in it won't suddenly gimp your list. But if you are looking for every single edge, then its probably not the best. Given the points drop in defilers, I think having a lascannon defiler outfitted for shooting is probably the same amount of points as a forgefiend and you would probably do better in every way.
How does everybody think Chapter Approved is going to change Chaos? If the point value rumors are true it seems like Terminators across the board might be getting a 5 ppm decrease, definitely makes them an even more appealing choice now even though they were really good before.
Terminators were better at the start of the edition when hordes weren't so popular yet. Now, with so many people running hordes, deep strike got nerfed hard.
Chaos is probably the only faction that can still do deep strike decently because we have warp time to get our terminators nearer and we have obliterators that can shoot 24 inches. But chaos also wants to use warp time on stuff like Mortarion or magnus.
I mean, if you are facing IG and they have those scout sentinels that scout forward. Add the 9 inch bubble you have to deep strike outside, you would be lucky if you are more than 5 inches from your own deployment line already.
You can run Alpha legion and sacrifice a squad of cultists and 1 cp on forward operatives to limit how much your opponent can scout move forward. I tried that. But you have to agree with whoever you are playing that deployment comes before movement, so your forward operatives cultist squad comes on before his scout sentinels get to scout move, because both essentially activate before the turn starts.
Azuza001 wrote: I don't know about that, with nurgle and a deamon detachment with access to deamon nurgle powers you get access to the heal d3 wounds spell which is awesome. Also with autocannons it can sit with a hellbrute with ranged setup for 8 autocannon shots, which even with its bad bs (which 4+ isn't bad, ask any ork player what bad bs looks like) you can stick a cheap chaos lord near it for reroll 1's. So reroll 1's, hit on 4+ (or 5+ if moving), heal 1 wound a turn plus d3 with the spell, and deamonforge is only 1 CP, that's not a big deal. That's one bad Dino. Add a few hellbrutes in with it to run flank and that's a solid fire line for a deamon army which can then spam nurglings and deamonettes and bloodthirsters for an attack point.
If I hadn't painted my forgefiend as tzeentch that's how I would be running it right now.
The large gribbles are less of an issue than the small ones. I was reading that one of the Thropes gives a wide -1 to hit buff to all the nid's, and one of the hive fleets also gets +1 armor (which I could be wrong here). Its the -1 to hit at ranged that has me a bit worried, because if we move at all a lot of our stuff will be hitting on 6's.
Oh I should note that it doesn't work in CC, but you wanna knock out as many hits as possible before they get to ya
There is a fleet adaptation that's allows your units to act as if they are always in cover for getting shot at which is quite cool, and you could add a venomth rope (think that's the unit) that gives -1 to hit, but that's about it. They didn't get an adaptation that gives everybody - 1 to hit like raven guard (personally I would rather always be in cover than -1 to hit outside 12", 2+ tactical marines? Yes please!)
I am not afraid of the smaller ones, though there is seriously one thing I am afraid of, and that's termagaunts near a tervigon and the stratagem "endless swarm". Before you could go for either kill the guant squad completely or kill daddy, now if the player keeps near the edge of the table even if you killed the entire squad 2cp and they are back still getting buffed from big daddy. So . . . Damn gaunts lol. Flamers of tzeench won't help as much. Might try to just hit them with deamonettes.
Still, on the forgefiend topic, with tzeench you get a 4+ invulnerable save.... That could be sweet. 8 shots at 36", strength 8, ap-1, 2 dmg per shot, rerolling all missed hits and wounds? Am I missing something? That thing should be able to wipe any mid level units off the board. Bikers, terminators, tyrnaid warriors, I mean your talking mathhammer for 6 hits, 6 wounds, that should kill a carnifex or at least make it almost dead in a single round of shooting. That's assuming you don't go ectoplasam for the extra weapon (myself I go cheap as possible).
Azuza001 wrote: I don't know about that, with nurgle and a deamon detachment with access to deamon nurgle powers you get access to the heal d3 wounds spell which is awesome. Also with autocannons it can sit with a hellbrute with ranged setup for 8 autocannon shots, which even with its bad bs (which 4+ isn't bad, ask any ork player what bad bs looks like) you can stick a cheap chaos lord near it for reroll 1's. So reroll 1's, hit on 4+ (or 5+ if moving), heal 1 wound a turn plus d3 with the spell, and deamonforge is only 1 CP, that's not a big deal. That's one bad Dino. Add a few hellbrutes in with it to run flank and that's a solid fire line for a deamon army which can then spam nurglings and deamonettes and bloodthirsters for an attack point.
If I hadn't painted my forgefiend as tzeentch that's how I would be running it right now.
The large gribbles are less of an issue than the small ones. I was reading that one of the Thropes gives a wide -1 to hit buff to all the nid's, and one of the hive fleets also gets +1 armor (which I could be wrong here). Its the -1 to hit at ranged that has me a bit worried, because if we move at all a lot of our stuff will be hitting on 6's.
Oh I should note that it doesn't work in CC, but you wanna knock out as many hits as possible before they get to ya
There is a fleet adaptation that's allows your units to act as if they are always in cover for getting shot at which is quite cool, and you could add a venomth rope (think that's the unit) that gives -1 to hit, but that's about it. They didn't get an adaptation that gives everybody - 1 to hit like raven guard (personally I would rather always be in cover than -1 to hit outside 12", 2+ tactical marines? Yes please!)
I am not afraid of the smaller ones, though there is seriously one thing I am afraid of, and that's termagaunts near a tervigon and the stratagem "endless swarm". Before you could go for either kill the guant squad completely or kill daddy, now if the player keeps near the edge of the table even if you killed the entire squad 2cp and they are back still getting buffed from big daddy. So . . . Damn gaunts lol. Flamers of tzeench won't help as much. Might try to just hit them with deamonettes.
Still, on the forgefiend topic, with tzeench you get a 4+ invulnerable save.... That could be sweet. 8 shots at 36", strength 8, ap-1, 2 dmg per shot, rerolling all missed hits and wounds? Am I missing something? That thing should be able to wipe any mid level units off the board. Bikers, terminators, tyrnaid warriors, I mean your talking mathhammer for 6 hits, 6 wounds, that should kill a carnifex or at least make it almost dead in a single round of shooting. That's assuming you don't go ectoplasam for the extra weapon (myself I go cheap as possible).
How do you get a 4+ for Tzeentch? I thought marks didn't do anything other than give access to certain strategems and relics
Mr. Funktastic wrote: How does everybody think Chapter Approved is going to change Chaos? If the point value rumors are true it seems like Terminators across the board might be getting a 5 ppm decrease, definitely makes them an even more appealing choice now even though they were really good before.
I hadn't seen that rumor. If true, it's welcome. I would definitely consider playing them more often.
Rumor had points for some loyalist and DG Terminators drop by 5 ppm so I'm just assuming if that's true then Chaos Terminators might get the same treatment. I love Terminators, so if they do get a nice 5 ppm price drop then I wouldn't mind that at all, Terminators in general are a bit overpriced as it is. As it stands a 5 man squad of combi plasma Termies in rapid fire range can output comparable damage to Oblits on average except they're actually good in CC, so if the points drop rumor is true then I'd definitely would like to see them on the table more.
Azuza001 wrote: I don't know about that, with nurgle and a deamon detachment with access to deamon nurgle powers you get access to the heal d3 wounds spell which is awesome. Also with autocannons it can sit with a hellbrute with ranged setup for 8 autocannon shots, which even with its bad bs (which 4+ isn't bad, ask any ork player what bad bs looks like) you can stick a cheap chaos lord near it for reroll 1's. So reroll 1's, hit on 4+ (or 5+ if moving), heal 1 wound a turn plus d3 with the spell, and deamonforge is only 1 CP, that's not a big deal. That's one bad Dino. Add a few hellbrutes in with it to run flank and that's a solid fire line for a deamon army which can then spam nurglings and deamonettes and bloodthirsters for an attack point.
If I hadn't painted my forgefiend as tzeentch that's how I would be running it right now.
The large gribbles are less of an issue than the small ones. I was reading that one of the Thropes gives a wide -1 to hit buff to all the nid's, and one of the hive fleets also gets +1 armor (which I could be wrong here). Its the -1 to hit at ranged that has me a bit worried, because if we move at all a lot of our stuff will be hitting on 6's.
Oh I should note that it doesn't work in CC, but you wanna knock out as many hits as possible before they get to ya
There is a fleet adaptation that's allows your units to act as if they are always in cover for getting shot at which is quite cool, and you could add a venomth rope (think that's the unit) that gives -1 to hit, but that's about it. They didn't get an adaptation that gives everybody - 1 to hit like raven guard (personally I would rather always be in cover than -1 to hit outside 12", 2+ tactical marines? Yes please!)
I am not afraid of the smaller ones, though there is seriously one thing I am afraid of, and that's termagaunts near a tervigon and the stratagem "endless swarm". Before you could go for either kill the guant squad completely or kill daddy, now if the player keeps near the edge of the table even if you killed the entire squad 2cp and they are back still getting buffed from big daddy. So . . . Damn gaunts lol. Flamers of tzeench won't help as much. Might try to just hit them with deamonettes.
Still, on the forgefiend topic, with tzeench you get a 4+ invulnerable save.... That could be sweet. 8 shots at 36", strength 8, ap-1, 2 dmg per shot, rerolling all missed hits and wounds? Am I missing something? That thing should be able to wipe any mid level units off the board. Bikers, terminators, tyrnaid warriors, I mean your talking mathhammer for 6 hits, 6 wounds, that should kill a carnifex or at least make it almost dead in a single round of shooting. That's assuming you don't go ectoplasam for the extra weapon (myself I go cheap as possible).
How do you get a 4+ for Tzeentch? I thought marks didn't do anything other than give access to certain strategems and relics
Weaver of fates psychic power, cast it on the forgefiend it increases it's save to 4+.
On top of that, you could cast presence on it as well for +1 to hit rolls couldn't you? It has the heretic astrades keyword. I am looking at taking this as part of my 1500 pt list for Thursday.
Sorcerer of Tzeentch with Mark of tzeench, presence and weaver of fate
2 squads of rubric marines, 5 men, 3 Inferno bolters 1 soul cannon, 1 asp sorcerer with staff
1 hellbrute with dual laz and scourge and mark of tzeench
Forgefiend with dual hades auto cannons, 1 ectoplasam cannon, Mark of Tzeentch
That's my fire base. I know my opponent will come to me, that's just the way her army works.
I am still working on deamon side, but I know I want a soulgrinder.
Azuza001 wrote: I don't know about that, with nurgle and a deamon detachment with access to deamon nurgle powers you get access to the heal d3 wounds spell which is awesome. Also with autocannons it can sit with a hellbrute with ranged setup for 8 autocannon shots, which even with its bad bs (which 4+ isn't bad, ask any ork player what bad bs looks like) you can stick a cheap chaos lord near it for reroll 1's. So reroll 1's, hit on 4+ (or 5+ if moving), heal 1 wound a turn plus d3 with the spell, and deamonforge is only 1 CP, that's not a big deal. That's one bad Dino. Add a few hellbrutes in with it to run flank and that's a solid fire line for a deamon army which can then spam nurglings and deamonettes and bloodthirsters for an attack point.
If I hadn't painted my forgefiend as tzeentch that's how I would be running it right now.
The large gribbles are less of an issue than the small ones. I was reading that one of the Thropes gives a wide -1 to hit buff to all the nid's, and one of the hive fleets also gets +1 armor (which I could be wrong here). Its the -1 to hit at ranged that has me a bit worried, because if we move at all a lot of our stuff will be hitting on 6's.
Oh I should note that it doesn't work in CC, but you wanna knock out as many hits as possible before they get to ya
There is a fleet adaptation that's allows your units to act as if they are always in cover for getting shot at which is quite cool, and you could add a venomth rope (think that's the unit) that gives -1 to hit, but that's about it. They didn't get an adaptation that gives everybody - 1 to hit like raven guard (personally I would rather always be in cover than -1 to hit outside 12", 2+ tactical marines? Yes please!)
I am not afraid of the smaller ones, though there is seriously one thing I am afraid of, and that's termagaunts near a tervigon and the stratagem "endless swarm". Before you could go for either kill the guant squad completely or kill daddy, now if the player keeps near the edge of the table even if you killed the entire squad 2cp and they are back still getting buffed from big daddy. So . . . Damn gaunts lol. Flamers of tzeench won't help as much. Might try to just hit them with deamonettes.
Still, on the forgefiend topic, with tzeench you get a 4+ invulnerable save.... That could be sweet. 8 shots at 36", strength 8, ap-1, 2 dmg per shot, rerolling all missed hits and wounds? Am I missing something? That thing should be able to wipe any mid level units off the board. Bikers, terminators, tyrnaid warriors, I mean your talking mathhammer for 6 hits, 6 wounds, that should kill a carnifex or at least make it almost dead in a single round of shooting. That's assuming you don't go ectoplasam for the extra weapon (myself I go cheap as possible).
The issue with the forgefiend is the AP-1 on its weapon and its 4+ to hit. If you use daemonforge, then it gets better at hitting. But at -1 AP, vehicles and stuff you are shooting at will probably get at least a 4+ save. If you can find a big juicy target that has crappy saves, then forgefiend would be good. But these days, even a Rhino has a 3+ save, and same goes for big monsters. A terminator would still have a 3+ save against your guns.
Yeah, that's the one thing I am worried about, but I am hoping pure number of shots will handle that.
Carnifexes only have 8 wounds, and if I get 6 hits that's 6 wounds (wounding on 3's and rerolling 1's and 2's thinks to deamonforge) and even if only 3 get through at that point with the carnifexes armor save that's 2 wounds left on the fex. If within 24" then the ectoplasam cannon should be able to do that with again reroll hit and wound.
Or I could just go 3 ectoplasam cannons, choices. . .
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, that's the one thing I am worried about, but I am hoping pure number of shots will handle that.
Carnifexes only have 8 wounds, and if I get 6 hits that's 6 wounds (wounding on 3's and rerolling 1's and 2's thinks to deamonforge) and even if only 3 get through at that point with the carnifexes armor save that's 2 wounds left on the fex. If within 24" then the ectoplasam cannon should be able to do that with again reroll hit and wound.
Or I could just go 3 ectoplasam cannons, choices. . .
Never go Ecto. On average, you're getting far less shots. With such a low BS to begin with, you want the largest amount of shots to make up for that. The -3 AP is deceptive when you're only getting 6 shots on average.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Forgefiends need to be cheaper. That and/or get Legion benefits.
They aren't SUPER bad though.
Agreed Forgefiends are too expensive right now to be worth taking. Not sure about the Legion Traits though, if they added LTs to Forge/Mauler fiends they could keep the prices they have since it would greatly improve thier abilities.
I.E. a Worldeater Maulerfiend or an Iron Warrior Forge Fiend would be rancid.
I kind of want to try four Fiends with Epidemius. One of each loadout. They should be able, with other units doing some softening up, to get a kill or two a turn for charging up Epi. I’m already taking a Nurgle DP and Oblits in most games and taking units out with them, this isn’t a big leap.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh hey, this came up: if you've run a load of Heldrakes and Fire Raptors into the middle of the enemy, their gunners can't shoot at Characters who've deep striked into no man's land.
Could be fun. If you've Warptimed a FR with Miasma into the middle of the enemy, and charged various units, there might be some surprises you can pull.
How are Heldrakes? They seem like a good distraction unit and relatively durable with T7, 12W, 3+/5++, regeneration and with a 30 inch move they can get around the board quickly to tie up multiple valuable shooting units easily. Damage wise they don't seem particularly impressive but they can probably handle infantry and put a few wounds on a flyer well enough with a baleflamer and claws.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: How are Heldrakes? They seem like a good distraction unit and relatively durable with T7, 12W, 3+/5++, regeneration and with a 30 inch move they can get around the board quickly to tie up multiple valuable shooting units easily. Damage wise they don't seem particularly impressive but they can probably handle infantry and put a few wounds on a flyer well enough with a baleflamer and claws.
Well, as the FLY, they can jump over a screening unit with their charge, giving their 30” a cheeky extension. Plus, you are not obliged to charge head-on; you can crab-scuttle, drift, moonwalk, and pirouette.
What this means is that, if there’s two gunner units, who are within 6.75” of one another and not Ultramarines or Eldar, you can kill both their shooting by poking each unit.
As far as I can tell, you are obliged to make all of your attacks, so if they’re not big things that’ll tank it, you’ll want to get multiple members of both units within 1” to prevent casualties from disengaging the units. Every model is assumed to carry a basic CCW, so you don’t *have* to eat three Bolter Devastators with your Heldrake Claws if you *need* to keep the Lascannons at the other end of the line engaged. Alternatively, just use the requisite pirouette at the end of your ignores-intervening-models charge to engage a THIRD unit.
You can even do a creative pile-in to drag units in that you didn’t declare charges on. If there’s a Hellblaster Squad with Captain and Lieutenant, you might not want to eat their Overwatch. So, don’t! Land between them and their 6” away screen, sideways. Charge the screen, sideways, ending 1” away. When you Pile In, turn 90 degrees and move so you’re a millimetre closer to the nearest model in the screen unit. You’ve just drawn the Hellblasters into the scrap, without taking a scratch from their guns. Eat the screen (you’re not allowed to eat Hellblasters as you didn’t declare a charge against them), and in the Enemy turn, run away and breathe fire on something else.
Definitely some great strategy, even if they don't do a lot of killing the ability to prevent multiple shooting units from fitting in turn 1 sounds invaluable. Even if they shoot at it turn 1, that's okay, that's more shooting that's not aimed at my units that can actually do some damage and for 185 points, it's not terribly expensive for what you can do with it.
I'm looking for a way to make a list that uses at least 4 squads of Obliterators. At my last tournament I used two squads and while they did some work I felt like I didn't have enough of them. I liked what I saw in that one list from the SoCal Open that had 5 squads, so I put together a list that would use a bunch of those guys and my favorite Death Guard unit, the Plagueburst Crawler. Here's what I came up with on Battlescribe:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Spearhead Detachment (Alpha Legion)
HQ:
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: Blade of the Hydra, Bolt Pistol
Troops:
18 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
Heavy Support:
3 Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
3x 3 Obliterators: Mark of Tzeentch
Detachment 2: Battalion Detachment (Chaos Daemons)
HQ:
The Changeling
Herald of Nurgle
Troops:
2x 3 Nurglings
30 Plaguebearers: Icon, Instrument
Detachment 3: Spearhead Detachment (Death Guard)
HQ:
Chaos Lord: Chainsword, Bolt Pistol
Heavy Support:
3x Plagueburst Crawler: 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
Total 2000 points
My warlord would be the DG Lord, who would take the Arch Contaminator trait for reroll all wounds on the crawlers' weapons. I would screen said crawlers with the Plaguebearers and infiltrate the Cultists forward, where they could block scout moves and infiltrations along with the Nurglings. The Nurgle Herald would probably stay where he could cast Fleshy Abundance on the crawlers as they take damage. The Oblits would drop with the jump lord for the rerolls of 1's, with the Tzeentch ones dropping near the Changeling for -2 to hit (-1 from Changeling, -1 from Alpha Legion). I might be better off with the Fugaris helm on my DG Lord (which would allow me to spread the crawlers out wider to avoid one big enemy unit locking all of them down at once) rather than the Blade of the Hydra, although the Blade does make a decent charge deterrent.
The list has very little CC power at all, going with all guns instead. I feel like it would be fun to play at least, but I'm not sure it'll work as well as I'm hoping. Just an off-the-wall idea I've been bouncing around in my head lately.
Another limitation is you’ve got three squads of Oblits constrained by the radius of the Changeling. Might be better to make one of tzeentchians a second Slaaneshi one with the Lord, so you can have two teams of six in different areas? You’ve got the CP for a second EC if they survive.
Perhaps if the Plaguebearers split up a little, they could provide better screening? They’re quite tough as they are, and might perform better in their purpose by covering more ground as opposed to maximising their -1 to be hit. Or even trade some for Brimstones.
As someone playing a pure world eaters list, I feel extremely constrained by not having psyker abilities such as warp time. A renegade list is looking more and more feasible for me. Apart from losing access to the Veterans of the Long War strategem, I think this could be a quite viable option given the legion trait allows advance and charge for applicable units, access to psychic powers, and flexibility in being able to choose chaos marks per unit. Does anyone play renegade lists regularly? What are the potential strengths and drawbacks of a renegade list? What are the spotlight renegade units?
I also play pure world eaters. Before the codex I was using a sorcerer to warp time my 20 berzerkers out of a kharybdis into the enemy lines to hilarious effect. Without warp time you really cannot do this, so I've moved my zerkers into rhinos where they can move 9 inches out and then charge, and I've put a contemptor in my kharibdis. This new dynamic really puts a mental strain on my opponent to pick their poison.
I have no comments on renegades, I'm stickin with my bois in red covered blue.
andysonic1 wrote: I also play pure world eaters. Before the codex I was using a sorcerer to warp time my 20 berzerkers out of a kharybdis into the enemy lines to hilarious effect. Without warp time you really cannot do this, so I've moved my zerkers into rhinos where they can move 9 inches out and then charge, and I've put a contemptor in my kharibdis. This new dynamic really puts a mental strain on my opponent to pick their poison.
I have no comments on renegades, I'm stickin with my bois in red covered blue.
Yea, that's always a thought but my concern is hitting a turn 2, turn 3 charge. Essentially the game is halfway over by the time your rhinozerkers get where they need to be (without warptime). My thoughts were that with warp time, and the renegade assault + charge trait, I might be looking at a turn 2 rhinozerker charge at the latest. I don't have a Kharibdis or any other forgeworld models, so I'm kinda working with the basics. The game seems to be getting more and more shooty as well, so keeping my guys alive is proving to be more of a task.
Have you considered adding more threats to your list, such as Heldrakes, Land Raiders, Helbrutes, Havocs, Obliterators, Terminators, Cultists blobs, or Chaos Spawn? You can start a lot of the above on the field which will divert fire off your other units, or start some of it off the field to deep strike in to mess with your opponent. Rhinos are pretty tough, and if your opponent doesn't devote firepower to them than they are not going to go down. Also don't forget that you can move + advance a rhino and still use the smoke launchers per the FAQ. If your group is more competitive maybe start using the new ITC missions that are a flat 6 turns long and change up the dynamics of the game to make TAC lists more valuable. This will benefit your rhino zerkers because a TAC list may not have the dedicated firepower to eliminate more than one rhino while also trying to stop your other threats.
Your one strategy shouldn't be to devote everything into getting your berzerkers into combat as fast as possible. They are simply a tool to be used as the need arises. Sometimes you'll get opponents in your face turn one and you can just hop out of the rhinos and attack, and sometimes you'll get a backfield gunline that you have to get to. Heldrakes / Deep Strickers can get to the gunlines ASAP to mess them up, and Cultists / Spawn can screen your deployment and flanks.
It doesn't matter if the zerkers get to your opponent late because whenever they get there they will start destroying everything in their path. Even one zerker has enough attacks on the charge to decimate another unit. What matters is how the rest of your army works together to complete not only their own unit based objectives but each other's objectives.
andysonic1 wrote: Have you considered adding more threats to your list, such as Heldrakes, Land Raiders, Helbrutes, Havocs, Obliterators, Terminators, Cultists blobs, or Chaos Spawn? You can start a lot of the above on the field which will divert fire off your other units, or start some of it off the field to deep strike in to mess with your opponent. Rhinos are pretty tough, and if your opponent doesn't devote firepower to them than they are not going to go down. Also don't forget that you can move + advance a rhino and still use the smoke launchers per the FAQ. If your group is more competitive maybe start using the new ITC missions that are a flat 6 turns long and change up the dynamics of the game to make TAC lists more valuable. This will benefit your rhino zerkers because a TAC list may not have the dedicated firepower to eliminate more than one rhino while also trying to stop your other threats.
Your one strategy shouldn't be to devote everything into getting your berzerkers into combat as fast as possible. They are simply a tool to be used as the need arises. Sometimes you'll get opponents in your face turn one and you can just hop out of the rhinos and attack, and sometimes you'll get a backfield gunline that you have to get to. Heldrakes / Deep Strickers can get to the gunlines ASAP to mess them up, and Cultists / Spawn can screen your deployment and flanks.
It doesn't matter if the zerkers get to your opponent late because whenever they get there they will start destroying everything in their path. Even one zerker has enough attacks on the charge to decimate another unit. What matters is how the rest of your army works together to complete not only their own unit based objectives but each other's objectives.
yea that's good advice, I guess my concern is the lack of firepower and mobility I have on the table. It seems like all my money, currently, is on close range/ assault so I feel like I need to get there asap. My primary opponent, my brother, plays Eldar with 2 fire prisms, a wave serpent, wraith lord, and wraight guard - definitely a shooty list. I don't think I have a roster that can handle that since, vehicle-wise, i only have 2 helbrutes and a rhino. The rest is all infantry, including spawn and cultists. I suppose that once I get this Land Raider and second rhino assembled, the pieces will start to come together and tactics will open up to me.
Always look at your own situation and your opponent's. I had an assault heavy Word Bearers host with Rhinos with a shooty Helbrute for fire support. Came up against a Death Guard army that was all medium ranged guns. I sat back and made them come towards me, get the free hits in when it favours you and then charge forwards to engage
I would suggest fixing up some proxy Heldrakes and Terminators and playing around with a few lists. I proxied my Khyribdis for months before I decided to buy it.
I ran my khorne army as world eaters once then switched to renegades and have not looked back. I found that my beserkers didn't need the world eaters tactic at all when you hit with the numbers I do (2 squads of 20, 2 squads of 10 in 2 rhinos). Sure, the enemy will typically kill one of the 2 blobs In the first turn, but the advantages of warp time, advance and charge well make up for losing +1a on the charge. On top of that being able to cast demonic strength on my deamon prince and being able to actually block psychic tests more than once is very valuable.
Only thing I miss is the Kharn / Defiler / Hellbrute fire base. Kharn did amazing at making sure the big guns hit while his boys ran up and wrecked face.
I'm looking at adding a Hellforged Contemptor to my Black Legion, for even more firepower.
I lost surprisingly badly at a tournament a few weeks ago with a Daemon-heavy list. That's when I realized I really needed to bulk up the CSM side and make them deadlier.
Can anyone recommend a particular loadout for a shooty Contemptor? The rest of my army is fairly balanced between anti-tank and anti-horde [though not a lot on the whole yet].
While I'm at it, can someone clarify for me if the Hellforged Contemptor has to take double of its guns, or if they can be switched up? Could I give it, say, a Kheres and an Ectoplasma Cannon? The FAQ isn't as clear as it could be.
Hmm. One could build an army with Nurgling troops, Rubricae line infantry, Helbrute or Obliterator or tank fire support, and Possessed or Terminator attackers.
This would mean every unit in the army wants to be dealt with by medium to high Damage attacks. Deny small arms fire a decent target.
To a lesser extent, Plague Marines and Plaguebearers can find a place in this as well.
andysonic1 wrote: I also play pure world eaters. Before the codex I was using a sorcerer to warp time my 20 berzerkers out of a kharybdis into the enemy lines to hilarious effect. Without warp time you really cannot do this, so I've moved my zerkers into rhinos where they can move 9 inches out and then charge, and I've put a contemptor in my kharibdis. This new dynamic really puts a mental strain on my opponent to pick their poison.
I have no comments on renegades, I'm stickin with my bois in red covered blue.
I've been running a couple variations on this list for my World Eaters, it's been surprisingly effective, even when I don't manage to get first turn (my group has been using the ITC +1 to initiative pretty much since 8th came out). Basically, I use the Kharybdis to put a melee threat in my opponent's face on the first turn with the two Storm Eagles delivering the rest on the second turn and shredding whatever vehicle threats I deem most important.
lindsay40k wrote: Do we have any Emperor's Children players here? Curious if Noise Marine Troops are as hilarious/terrifying as they sound.
i played them in alpha legion with the stratagem to make them infiltrate, supported by a sorcerer with preiscenze and delightful agony they are a real pain in the ass for the opponent, if you then use VOTLW stratagem they can kill practically anything
Doesn't sound like Chapter Approved is changing anything other than points for FW kits, tho. So I think Smite will remain as-is.
Anyone notice the illustration? Looks like points for the Exalted Champion are going down. Not sure what that other, bigger thing is, thought it was a Warboss.
Doesn't sound like Chapter Approved is changing anything other than points for FW kits, tho. So I think Smite will remain as-is.
Anyone notice the illustration? Looks like points for the Exalted Champion are going down. Not sure what that other, bigger thing is, thought it was a Warboss.
Pretty sure that's a plague marine and a gorkanaught
4PL felt like too much for me to even consider proxying them to see what the fuss was about. 60/3 might have been more on the money.
I was looking forwards to Hive Fleet Kronos throwing some stone at the Smite scissors, but I guess a sledgehammer cracks the nut just as well.
If I fancy trying Smite spam, I’ll just say my Diazmonettes are all Heralds. Hell, Steed Heralds have price parity in points and PL, and get +1W, M14, invuln... bad knee-jerk.
Best way to counter eldar revenant titan? Packs a lot of dakka at 1200: 2+ 4d6 12 str -4 apd6 (2d6 on wounds of 6) and missle launcher 2+ 2d6 8 str -4 apd6
Worst part is it is toughness 9 with a 4++ (if it moves which it will) and at only 1200 there are 800 points left in the army to deal with.
Seems like the option has to be lascannons as meltas coming in at Str 8 is a wash. Death hex seems an obvious necessity but is hard to get off at 8 and eldar have farseer that can reroll one or both deny rolls. My standard list runs magnus and aetaos'rau'keres with changeling. Smite seems an obvious route but not sure I can weather the alpha strike, if I go first shouldn't be as bad as it cripples. Also this is more difficult with malefic coming in at 80 points. Not sure if I should go more MEQ and distribute the dakka as the Lord of Change essentially gets one shot by the titan via mathhammer even wiht a 3++ on T8 at 27 wounds...
I was thinking how the meta is hordes now. So, building on that, what would make a list able to counter hordes easily ? (Without having to go full horde yourself).
I mean, we can go cultist horde ourselves, but I was thinking in terms of anti-horde. Not out hoarding the other player. Best weapon I can think of against hordes is of course, flamers. But flamers are short range, which are problematic.
The best I have been able to come up with, is to have a squad of 10 chosen in a Rhino with 5 flamers, and champion with combi flamer. This suddenly make the Rhino a target. But the opponent has to destroy said Rhino and then kill 4 chosen before they can kill even one flamer guy.
If untouched. The 6 flamers will do 6d6 auto hits on a horde and then follow up by charging into combat. (Chosen are decent at fighting).
So what do you guys think? Would a list incorporating two or three such Rhinos and Chosen be anti horde? Bear in mind of course, that if they want to spend firepower killing the Rhino and said chosen squad, then its fire power they are not devoting to killing your other stuff.
The flip side to that, would be if a squad of berserkers in the same Rhino would achieve the same result lol. However, I have never had that much luck getting berserkers into combat before they get shot off the board. And the overwatch these days can be pretty brutal.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I was thinking how the meta is hordes now. So, building on that, what would make a list able to counter hordes easily ? (Without having to go full horde yourself).
I mean, we can go cultist horde ourselves, but I was thinking in terms of anti-horde. Not out hoarding the other player. Best weapon I can think of against hordes is of course, flamers. But flamers are short range, which are problematic.
The best I have been able to come up with, is to have a squad of 10 chosen in a Rhino with 5 flamers, and champion with combi flamer. This suddenly make the Rhino a target. But the opponent has to destroy said Rhino and then kill 4 chosen before they can kill even one flamer guy.
If untouched. The 6 flamers will do 6d6 auto hits on a horde and then follow up by charging into combat. (Chosen are decent at fighting).
So what do you guys think? Would a list incorporating two or three such Rhinos and Chosen be anti horde? Bear in mind of course, that if they want to spend firepower killing the Rhino and said chosen squad, then its fire power they are not devoting to killing your other stuff.
The flip side to that, would be if a squad of berserkers in the same Rhino would achieve the same result lol. However, I have never had that much luck getting berserkers into combat before they get shot off the board. And the overwatch these days can be pretty brutal.
Noise Marines can clear chaff units like many horde armies field. Cultists, Conscripts, and Ork Boyz melt to Noise Marine shooting, especially with Veterans of the Long War. In my last tournament game, my noise boys did terrible things to Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot. And perhaps best of all, since Noise Marines are Slaanesh devoted, they can use Endless Cacophony to get a second shooting attack, potentially clearing a second horde of enemies. Gnarly!
-The same number of attacks in CC -Double the amount of wounds
-2 shots at 24", 4 at 12", as compared to 3.5 autohits at 8"
-More board control
Chosen are 23 points with the Flamer (16+7 right?). Also those are 3.5 autohit compared to the 2.something for the Bolters. That adds up over time with Chosen.
Chosen definitely need a buff though. Always thought Veteran skills were the way to do that.
10 Chosen, 5 Flamers, Combi Flamer. About 200 points.
15 Marines, stock. About 200 points.
At 24":
10 Chosen get 5 shots, 3.33 hits.
15 Marines get 15 shots for 10 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.
At 12":
10 Chosen get 10 shots, 6.66 hits.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.
At 8":
10 Chosen get 8 shots on 3+ (5.33 hits), 2 shots at 4+ (1 hit), and 6d6 auto hits (21 hits) for 27.33 total.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the Chosen, by 137%.
The Marines are WILDLY more effective at anything past 8", while still having more durability. Chosen are more effective within 8"... But not by a ton. The only thing that's really nice about the Flamer Chosen is their Overwatch.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I was thinking how the meta is hordes now. So, building on that, what would make a list able to counter hordes easily ? (Without having to go full horde yourself).
I mean, we can go cultist horde ourselves, but I was thinking in terms of anti-horde. Not out hoarding the other player. Best weapon I can think of against hordes is of course, flamers. But flamers are short range, which are problematic.
The best I have been able to come up with, is to have a squad of 10 chosen in a Rhino with 5 flamers, and champion with combi flamer. This suddenly make the Rhino a target. But the opponent has to destroy said Rhino and then kill 4 chosen before they can kill even one flamer guy.
If untouched. The 6 flamers will do 6d6 auto hits on a horde and then follow up by charging into combat. (Chosen are decent at fighting).
So what do you guys think? Would a list incorporating two or three such Rhinos and Chosen be anti horde? Bear in mind of course, that if they want to spend firepower killing the Rhino and said chosen squad, then its fire power they are not devoting to killing your other stuff.
The flip side to that, would be if a squad of berserkers in the same Rhino would achieve the same result lol. However, I have never had that much luck getting berserkers into combat before they get shot off the board. And the overwatch these days can be pretty brutal.
Interesting question. But for Conscript spam, good horde lists have seemed rare in 8th edition. There's too many things that are good at shooting up the chaff.
Until recently, I've been playing two lists: a Noise Marine list and a Lascannon spam list. For all their shooting, the Noise Marines proved to be a little too fragile. Facing a horde, they would go down to volume of fire pretty quickly. They're a mid-range unit, and that needs to be considered when taking them. They are going to get wounded and die just as easily as any other MEQ.
The Lascannon spam list is very good at taking out everything supporting horde armies. I played plenty of games where every tank / walker / transport / heavy infantry unit was destroyed by the end of the first turn. Taking 6 CSM squads with Lascannons gives you a lot of ways to deal with a horde charging at you.
But now I've switched to a Deep Strike list, which has the right balance of anti-infantry and anti-armor. I think this is probably the best anti-horde CSMs can do. It's built around 3 squads of Obliterators, Abaddon, a deep striking Sorcerer, several large blobs of MoK Cultists, and whatever else I feel like playing that day (usually Terminators.)
Abaddon, the Sorcerer, and the Oblits drop on an enemy's flank, then I use Tide of Traitors to bring up one of the Cultist blobs. The Sorcerer casts Warp Time on the Cultists, who move to screen everything behind them. The Obliterators just shoot anything in 24 inches. The Cultists can just stand there to act as a screen, or they can charge into combat.
The reason this works is the rerolls to hit. Statically, each squad of Obliterators averages 10 hits, and the Cultists are charging into combat with 60 attacks. If they do good, I can use Fury of Khorne to let them do it again. If they don't do good, I use Tide of Traitors the next turn to restore them to full health or bring up another blob to replace them.
But I don't really agree with the idea of massed flamers. The trick to a good horde list is having something good behind it. Special weapons should have range and a good chance to deal damage. It feels like opportunities are slipping with short range special weapons.
techsoldaten wrote: Interesting question. But for Conscript spam, good horde lists have seemed rare in 8th edition. There's too many things that are good at shooting up the chaff.
I'm sorry, what? Razorwing Flocks, Brimstone Horrors, Ork Boyz, and now with the Nid codex Genestealers and gaunts have shown up at top tables. All of the math I've seen indicates that hordes are a massive problem because any "anti-horde" is more efficient against MEQ targets.
Yeah. I suggested flamers but nobody seems to think they are a good idea at all. Right now, there is no anti-hoard unit or weapon because flamers seem to be too limited.
At 24":
10 Chosen get 5 shots, 3.33 hits.
15 Marines get 15 shots for 10 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.
At 12":
10 Chosen get 10 shots, 6.66 hits.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the stock Marines, by 300%.
At 8":
10 Chosen get 8 shots on 3+ (5.33 hits), 2 shots at 4+ (1 hit), and 6d6 auto hits (21 hits) for 27.33 total.
15 Marines get 30 shots, 20 hits.
Clear win to the Chosen, by 137%.
The Marines are WILDLY more effective at anything past 8", while still having more durability. Chosen are more effective within 8"... But not by a ton. The only thing that's really nice about the Flamer Chosen is their Overwatch.
However based off how you created the squads, we forget one thing...
Why am I bothering with 10 man Chosen squads?
Our anti-horde:
- TS: Flamer Rubricae in Rhinos, Tzaangor horde fight
- DG: Poxwalkers delivered in Rhinos and given psychic, Stratagem, and/or Typhus buffs, now it’s your horde. Don’t forget to place your new models so as to prevent fall back moves
- Everyone else: Flamer Raptors, especially with Icon of Despair, will cut down some chaff and add Morale pressure, good enough for casual play
- WE: Berzerkers, or if you really have to Combi-Flamer Chosen in Rhinos
- Everyone else: why haven’t you already got a load of Noise Marines, they’re like the Genestealers of Chaos
- Everyone: Contemptor or Leviathan with Butcher Cannon will add to the Morale pressure on hordes, maybe force some CP expenditure, Soulburner on its Claw and you’ve got a great multi-purpose stomper
- Everyone: Chaos Spawn are cheap and effective at eating Overwatch and tangoing with weak masses, will also add Morale pressure
techsoldaten wrote: Interesting question. But for Conscript spam, good horde lists have seemed rare in 8th edition. There's too many things that are good at shooting up the chaff.
I'm sorry, what? Razorwing Flocks, Brimstone Horrors, Ork Boyz, and now with the Nid codex Genestealers and gaunts have shown up at top tables. All of the math I've seen indicates that hordes are a massive problem because any "anti-horde" is more efficient against MEQ targets.
I said "good" horde lists have been rare in 8th edition. Apologies if that was ambiguous, I might be setting the bar too high with pre-Codex Conscript spam.
Those lists were very good. There were some games where my armies were facing 240+ shots at mid-range and 80+ attacks in assault per unit. It turned me off Berzerkers entirely.
Orks, Genestealers - they don't terrify me the same way. Haven't played against the new Nid Codex, maybe I need to rethink that.
I’ve just spotted a possibly interesting gimmick: a Word Bearer Daemon Prince can have Voice of Lorgar for +3” aura range, and their re-roll 1’s aura applies to all <DEITY> DAEMON units.
So. That enlarged footprint could buff ANY Legion’s Obliterators, Forge/Maulerfiends, Decimators, Blood Slaughterers, Lords Of Skulls, Heldrakes, Defilers, Possessed, Warp Talons, Kytans, Brass Scorpions, Plagueburst Crawlers, Bloat-Drones, Blight-Haulers, Steed riders, Mutilators...
Very interesting for an Epidemius list. Which of those listed units has interesting Legion trait benefits?
lindsay40k wrote: I’ve just spotted a possibly interesting gimmick: a Word Bearer Daemon Prince can have Voice of Lorgar for +3” aura range, and their re-roll 1’s aura applies to all <DEITY> DAEMON units.
So. That enlarged footprint could buff ANY Legion’s Obliterators, Forge/Maulerfiends, Decimators, Blood Slaughterers, Lords Of Skulls, Heldrakes, Defilers, Possessed, Warp Talons, Kytans, Brass Scorpions, Plagueburst Crawlers, Bloat-Drones, Blight-Haulers, Steed riders, Mutilators...
Very interesting for an Epidemius list. Which of those listed units has interesting Legion trait benefits?
That .. isn't bad at all. My go to would be a Death Guard Prince for an Epi list, but that's not bad.
I think the biggest limiting factor on anti-horde is that Flamer drivebys are out. The 3” disembark from a Rhino adds some range but not enough, and a single unit of Raptor firefighters is only going to get near if you can Warptime them from DS.
We do have a unique tarpit in Fiends of Slaanesh. Add a decent melee tank and you can set up hordes for a Berzerkers charge. If three characters summon a Fiend 9” from a blob, a reroll gives us a solid chance at entanglement.
wow was down my club tonight testing my deathguard mate was using 3x3 units of obilts, 5 plasma termie and abbaddon for the re-rolls.... wow just wow first turn killed pred, defiler and my daemon prince!
like what,,,, not even seen this done in real life yet it was horrible was crippled first turn!
Ok.. fired raptor down from 250 to 190 base.. That's pretty good. Reaper battery down to 30 which makes it compare a lot better to the quad bolters. And before missile down to 30..
Wow that's a lot of points saved.
Not sure they are worth it for zerkers but could be worth using for a melee Contemptor. The double chainclaw variant is now 48 points cheaper which brings the package to around 330 points depending on which guns you take on the Contemptor.
Otherwise there are a bunch of good changes in there, mostly in the Forgeworld section. Helforged Predators are now 5 points more than their vanilla counterparts, Sicarans got 65-70 points cheaper (their gun is free) and the Fire Raptor got cheaper as well. Plague marines will be pretty cost effective now too, I'm thinking taking a mix of blight launchers and bubotic axes is the way to go.
I think dread claws are now viable havoc delivery fspecial weapons. 10 meltas or 10 plasma should shore up a flank or take out an isolated character. Drop them with some terminators and voila
Hmm. I wonder if we’ll get commensurate Power Level adjustments? 7PL for Dreadclaws will free up a fair bit of power.
Sad to see they gave Reaper Battery a price cut, IMO they should have made it more powerful, still, good news for people trying to squeeze Fire Raptor in a list with two Primarchs though
Latro_ wrote: wow was down my club tonight testing my deathguard mate was using 3x3 units of obilts, 5 plasma termie and abbaddon for the re-rolls.... wow just wow first turn killed pred, defiler and my daemon prince!
like what,,,, not even seen this done in real life yet it was horrible was crippled first turn!
guess i'll know for next time not to bunch up
but abbadon re roll only oblys...unless he runs nornal termies and not DG termies
Automatically Appended Next Post: better play Abbadon+9 oblys+5 chaos termies with plasma or Mortarion?
Latro_ wrote: wow was down my club tonight testing my deathguard mate was using 3x3 units of obilts, 5 plasma termie and abbaddon for the re-rolls.... wow just wow first turn killed pred, defiler and my daemon prince!
like what,,,, not even seen this done in real life yet it was horrible was crippled first turn!
guess i'll know for next time not to bunch up
but abbadon re roll only oblys...unless he runs nornal termies and not DG termies
Automatically Appended Next Post: better play Abbadon+9 oblys+5 chaos termies with plasma or Mortarion?
he had the black legion army, i was facing him with my deathguard! chaos vs chaos
insult is i took my obilts out (since 2007!) my dg list since, well dg cant directly take them
Hormagaunts are getting a good run at the moment. They jump out of a Trygon, and Swarmlord gives them a free move. Then, they use 12” of Pile In moves to run massive disruption. They don’t go for kills, they go for deep insertion mischief.
I think we might have a use for under-equipped Berzerkers who are deliberately aiming not to kill all of their victims on the charge, but rather envelop them and rip apart in the enemy turn. Or just run at some Devastators they didn’t even charge.
They forgot to update our terminators when they updated the loyalists :( they also still forgot to give us heresy era terminators too :( I feel like cataphractii terminators is a good compromise for not having access to storm shields. And that's why I will always play narrative/open
I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?
It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.
sennacherib wrote: I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?
It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.
Havocs do the same job for cheaper.
If you wanted an expensive gun carrier, Fallen might work better.
Fallen can't be alpha legion for the infiltration though, even if they are better at overcharging plasmas (rerolling 1s when not moving)
Tzeentch knows why fallen can't take basic options though. would have been SO easy to make fallen into an actual army, or at least one with the basic rhino/bike/etc loadout
Basically, speaking, havocs are better shooters than chosen though, yes.
And in CC, the list of things that outpreform chosen is long.
Chosen's appeal is only in the fact you can tool them up as you like, so if you play a campaign of sorts when you stick with the same unit but can change loadouts, they hold some value in the fact you can switch from shooty to CC loadouts on the same unit.
Can't see another case where they are not outright outclassed.
The one thing Chosen do "better" than anyone else is loading up on combi-weapons. Only reason to do that is the combi-bolter of course, which... might be worth it as anti-horde option? 2 squads gets you 40 S4AP0 shots, 24 hits, 14.4 wounds, 8.64 dead guardsmen. So... 180 points of Chosen to kill 34.56 points of GEQ's.
Anyone else feel like guardsmen should be 5 points? Because this crap makes me feel like guardsmen should be 5 points.
Arachnofiend wrote: The one thing Chosen do "better" than anyone else is loading up on combi-weapons. Only reason to do that is the combi-bolter of course, which... might be worth it as anti-horde option? 2 squads gets you 40 S4AP0 shots, 24 hits, 14.4 wounds, 8.64 dead guardsmen. So... 180 points of Chosen to kill 34.56 points of GEQ's.
Anyone else feel like guardsmen should be 5 points? Because this crap makes me feel like guardsmen should be 5 points.
Wolf Guard have us beat on that, actually. Combi-plasma, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, AND Jump Pack all round are legit. Cheaper than Chosen in a Dreadclaw, in PL games. (Likewise Sternguard, on the firepower front.)
Nothing wrong with combi-weapons in PL games, though. May as well have another OW hit or two. Combi-flamer is better against hordes than flamer, as well.
sennacherib wrote: I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?
It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.
Havocs do the same job for cheaper.
If you wanted an expensive gun carrier, Fallen might work better.
Well, sorta. Getting 5 weapons and a Combi is cheaper with Chosen I think. How much is it to get 10 Special Weapons and 2 Combi with Havocs?
sennacherib wrote: I am building up some alpha legion. Any reason you all don’t run chosen?
It seems like chosen equipped with plasma and infiltrated into rapid fire range gives you 10 plasma shots. 20 if you spend 2 cp. is this worth it or no.
Havocs do the same job for cheaper.
If you wanted an expensive gun carrier, Fallen might work better.
Well, sorta. Getting 5 weapons and a Combi is cheaper with Chosen I think. How much is it to get 10 Special Weapons and 2 Combi with Havocs?
Well, with a mark of slannesh and 2 cp you can either fire 20 plasma shots or 10 flamer shots depending on the load out with chosen. Then charge. A 5 man unit would be pretty cheap though it would be a throwaway. I guess havocs are cheaper though but retain 1 less special weapon and no extra attacks on the charge.
They all have the Chaos Key word. You can freely intermingle units in legal detatchment with the chaos key word. You do not gain the benefit of faction specific bonus like RELENTLESS ADVANCE however. Looks like that detatchment loses no real benefit by mixing units though.
how is possible he's using a Dg DP? it's illegal list
What I’m not so sure about is the Objective secured that he has labeled his troops with, unless they are using chapter approved or a house rule then I would say that this would be illegal. Otherwise the detatchment seems perfectly legit. No different than the superheavy detachment.
No it's not. They all have the Chaos Keyword. He doesn't get the Death Guard Legion Trait (Rapid Fire at 18" and ignore penalties for moving and firing) but it's perfectly legal.
What do you guys think about dreadclaws after the price reduction? Still expensive as a drop pod, but it has some OK offensive abilities and can actually move around after it has deployed.
It looks pretty nice from a DG point of view, get some marines or foul blightspawn where you need them.
how is possible he's using a Dg DP? it's illegal list
Hmm. As the Battalion is stated to be a Chaos Daemons one, I think you might be right. If it were simply a Chaos detach,ent, it’d be ok?
There's some debate as to whether the Heretic Astartes daemon units count as Chaos Daemons for faction rules. I'd be on the side of no but IIRC the ITC guys said yes.
gwarsh41 wrote: What do you guys think about dreadclaws after the price reduction? Still expensive as a drop pod, but it has some OK offensive abilities and can actually move around after it has deployed.
It looks pretty nice from a DG point of view, get some marines or foul blightspawn where you need them.
As a Thousand Sons player I'm really happy about it, it's great to have a way to get my Rubrics into position. The fact that it can tie stuff up in combat is a very nice bonus.
Loading them up with blightspawn is tempting, but you would be Exactly out of range the turn you drop.
6 plasma guns might be better, and jump/teleport a lord in next to them.
If you are going for a deep strike plasma attack I'd be inclined to go with terminators and a sorceror. Black Legion are the best for it because of their re-roll 1s stratagem but it can work for any legion.
who have idea if a list with 3 low's, Mortarion Magnus and chaos knight, plus DP's and horrors, is it a viable list for actual 40k? thanks
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saint_red wrote: If you are going for a deep strike plasma attack I'd be inclined to go with terminators and a sorceror. Black Legion are the best for it because of their re-roll 1s stratagem but it can work for any legion.
yes im actually playing 7-8 Dg termies with a sorcerer for preiscence, they work more than fine.
blackmage wrote: who have idea if a list with 3 low's, Mortarion Magnus and chaos knight, plus DP's and horrors, is it a viable list for actual 40k? thanks
The Morty/Magnus/RK list is a frequent contender on top tables at tournaments. So yeah, it's good.
Deep Strike plasma termies, Sorcerer or Lord? Prescience isn’t at all guaranteed, whereas rerolling 1’s is guaranteed to happen and costs less. Also, terminator character or jump pack? I like the mobility on a potential beatstick who lands 9” away.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Objective Secured isn't a rule that's been released (yet) so i guess they house ruled it for the tournament (or, its just mistake)
He would have lost it anyway since he took a death guard DP in the demon detachment, alternatively lessor demons dont get Obsec from a CSM detachment. If I remember correctly he lost his ITC points after the fact when it was discovered to be illegal. This is kind of old, theres LONG discussions on FB regarding it.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Huh. That's describing a different issue, but it looks like the ITC made the wrong call in that instance. Good on him for staying calm lol
It's not the ITC, which was part of why his response kinda sucked. It was the TO, the ITC simply puts forth a tournament packet for anyone to use and the TO is responsible for judgement calls. The TO should have notified him first and foremost before making the call public, but he definitely should not be smearing the ITC and dragging Reece into the mix. I think there is a argument in regards to the relic being RAW, I also think his comp was fine but it is hard to argue that he should have been playing with obsec since even with the CA leaked information you need a pure detachment in which case the DGDP kills that. Arguing how much of an impact it had is irrelevant since he is speaking for himself and not his opponents and also because I know I alter my game play HEAVILY based on whether a unit has obsec or not. I think he played a list with a clear advantage based on the error, So despite it being unfortunate that the tourny finished on a sour note I actually think the TO made the right call. Almost every big event for at least 2 years running has had either fast an loose play or errors in list building thats discovered about the winner and I think calls like this are important in order for there to be an expectation of fairness.
blackmage wrote: is a pity play a list like that you must give up chaos stratagems.
I was hoping we’d get general traits and stratagems for CHAOS, HERETIC ASTARTES, IMPERIUM, AELDARI, etc that give ‘crusade’ lists something to spend CPs on. Maybe even some unique perks, like what YNNARI get.
blackmage wrote: is a pity play a list like that you must give up chaos stratagems.
I was hoping we’d get general traits and stratagems for CHAOS, HERETIC ASTARTES, IMPERIUM, AELDARI, etc that give ‘crusade’ lists something to spend CPs on. Maybe even some unique perks, like what YNNARI get.
Soup lists are already the strongest around, as much as I like running Thousand Sons+Tzeentch Daemons together we really do not need more incentives to soup it up.
lindsay40k wrote: Deep Strike plasma termies, Sorcerer or Lord? Prescience isn’t at all guaranteed, whereas rerolling 1’s is guaranteed to happen and costs less. Also, terminator character or jump pack? I like the mobility on a potential beatstick who lands 9” away.
It's an interesting one. Sorceror with prescience means you hit 5/6 times (83.33%) and never overheat vs lord gives you 2/3 + 1/6*2/3 (77.77%) and you still overheat if you roll a 1 and re-roll it into a 1 (1/36 chance per shot).
Now the sorceror can't guarantee prescience but can get good odds if you spend a command point on your psychic test. However, you are susceptible to being denied and against World Eaters or Templars the lord jumps way ahead. The thing that tips it in favour of the sorceror in most match ups is that you can cast a second power. Warp timing your terminators all but guarantees a charge vs the 27% you have normally (48% with khorne icon but then obviously you can't use endless cacophony).
Personally, I've been taking a terminator sorceror when I run my terminators but it's for casual games and I don't have a jump lord model. If I was going for the full 10 man terminator bomb I'd probably take both but would take a jump sorceror as priority. With the new Chapter Approved rules the terminator and jump sorcerors are much closer in points, so I'll run the appropriate unit depending on their escorts, but the jump sorceror is slightly better if you are min maxing.
How do people feel about Heldrakes and how many would you bring to a game? My one tends to take a lot of fire off the rest of my army, I feel like two would draw nearly everything off the rhinos and flying pod.
andysonic1 wrote: How do people feel about Heldrakes and how many would you bring to a game? My one tends to take a lot of fire off the rest of my army, I feel like two would draw nearly everything off the rhinos and flying pod.
This sounds like a consequence of your opponents not knowing how anemic a heldrake's attacks are rather than the heldrake actually being effective. It's a good model for tying stuff up quickly, and with its big base it can definitely threaten a group of tanks just by existing but I think taking two will cut your firepower too much.
andysonic1 wrote: How do people feel about Heldrakes and how many would you bring to a game? My one tends to take a lot of fire off the rest of my army, I feel like two would draw nearly everything off the rhinos and flying pod.
Helldrakes with Mark of nurgle are pretty cool when teamed with deamons and a chaos sorcerer.
1. Take helldrake with Mark of nurgle.
2. Take Herald of nurgle with fleshy abundance.
3. Take sorcerer with jump pack, demonic strength, and warp time.
Now for shenanigans. Cast demonic strength onto the helldrake. Then cast warp time to send it flying forward at st9 and 5 attacks. Hit something good like a rhino or predator or sentinals or a rus, something with wounds but not numbers. Now if it survived to your next turn (which it should) you move back to the sorcerer and the Herald. Helldrake heals 1 from its special rule, then another d3 from fleshy abundance, then sorcerer does its thing and sends the helldrake back into the frey. Profit. Is it economical? Probably not. But helldrake yoyo is one of my favorite things to do. If your opponent isn't expecting it 5 str 9 attacks doing d3 wounds can really pack a punch. Granted the -1 Ap isn't too good but eh, it's still fun to do.
It does sound entertaining, I’d prefer to use it in Narrative or Apoc where you can cast more than one Warptime.
Biggest strength of the Drake is drifting pile-ins. End your charge 1” away from your target and 1.1” away from something with horrific firepower and rubbish melee. Turn as you pile in to engage the gunner unit, you can’t make attacks against it but you’ve drawn it into combat without getting shot to pieces on the way in. I’m looking forwards to trying a Flyer wing with my Blade and Talon.
True, if your doing the yoyo your not using warp time on something else. But consider this. You can drop the sorcerer in once the Drake is in position to cast demonic strength and warp time, and your opponent can't do anything about it if you don't get first turn. Then on your second turn the sorcerer can summon in the Herald go get it into position to heal the Drake. It's a case of by the time your opponent realizes what your doing the look is priceless. Of course it only works once, after that they will know about it and try and block, but either way it's funny to do.
what is the benefit of the heldrake compared to the foetid bloatdrone? The greater movement speed seems to be the determing factor but not sure it is worth the points?
Captyn_Bob wrote: Huh. That's describing a different issue, but it looks like the ITC made the wrong call in that instance. Good on him for staying calm lol
It's not the ITC, which was part of why his response kinda sucked. It was the TO, the ITC simply puts forth a tournament packet for anyone to use and the TO is responsible for judgement calls. The TO should have notified him first and foremost before making the call public, but he definitely should not be smearing the ITC and dragging Reece into the mix. I think there is a argument in regards to the relic being RAW, I also think his comp was fine but it is hard to argue that he should have been playing with obsec since even with the CA leaked information you need a pure detachment in which case the DGDP kills that. Arguing how much of an impact it had is irrelevant since he is speaking for himself and not his opponents and also because I know I alter my game play HEAVILY based on whether a unit has obsec or not. I think he played a list with a clear advantage based on the error, So despite it being unfortunate that the tourny finished on a sour note I actually think the TO made the right call. Almost every big event for at least 2 years running has had either fast an loose play or errors in list building thats discovered about the winner and I think calls like this are important in order for there to be an expectation of fairness.
That was my list. The list was, and is, completely legal in all regards, and the long story short it is that I did not get the ITC points I fairly earned at a GT after the event was already over by a TO who was not actually a TO at the event at all (and who didn't discuss the issue with me) because said person unfortunately misinterpreted (and presumably still does) how the codex back of the rules book work.
Since the GT I regularly get messages on my Facebook blog from people who've heard about this and realized the TO was wrong, because they want to know whether this issue has been addressed by the ITC or GW. Unfortunately, it hasn't (I don't think GW should have to clarify this since I think the rules are clear and obvious, but clearly I'm wrong since a bad call was made after the GT, and there are presumably at least some other TOs likewise misinterpreting the new codexes to this day).
For anyone who wants specifics on either what actually happened or the two questions on the list's legality...
Everything that happened at and after the GT:
1 - I made a legal list that had, among other things, a detachment comprised of index Chaos Daemons plus a Death Guard daemon prince (who had a DG non-stratagem relic and a DG warlord trait), but no DG-specific detachment(s). Just in case there were any questions about it, and to avoid surprising anyone, on my army list I marked the troops in this detachment as ObSec and I marked my relic and warlord trait (despite this not being a requirement for the event) just in case anyone wanted to ask questions or discuss before the game. I made a hard copy of my list for each opponent in case they wanted it.
2 - Upon arriving at the event, and prior to the rounds starting, I walked over to the two TOs (we'll call them TO A and TO B) and tried to hand them my list in case they were reviewing for everyone or had questions about mine in particular. They declined.
3 - Partway through the first of two days of the GT, TO A came over to me before my second or third round and said he was confused why my Daemons detachment had ObSec troops when it included a DG daemon prince. I told him that Reece had clarified multiple times on the FLG website and on the FLG facebook page that there is an additional rule of ITC ObSec for daemons in which a Keyword Faction "Chaos" unit that was also a Keyword "Daemon" unit could be included in a Daemons detachment without brreaking obsec (I believe the head of NOVA also remarked on the facebook page to the effect of, "We checked with GW and confirmed that this was the correct intent."). I had multiple screenshots ready on my phone in case the question came up, and showed TO A. He didn't seem to like it but agreed that my list was correct and that my troops were ObSec.
4 - After the rounds on the first day but before the rounds on the second day, I am contacted via Facebook by TO A, who asked me about having a DG relic and DG warlord trait on the DG prince when I didn't have a DG detachment. I screenshot from the DG codex and showed him the rules for relics and warlord traits and explained that both the warlord trait and the one "free" relic are based solely on who your warlord is. TO A then said "ahh well the relic is fine then" but objected to the troops being ObSec due to the DGDP in the detachment. I again showed him the screenshots of Reece / FLG explaining that exactly what I did in my list was fully ObSec.
He then basically said he still didn't like it, and that there was some ITC Google Docs spreedsheet about factions and ObSec, and that because this niche situation wasn't somehow incorporated into the spreadsheet (how would you even do that?), he was ruling for the rest of the event that my troops weren't obsec. I told him I was pretty frustrated considering that I had proof that the ITC went out of its way multiple times to explicitly explain that was I was doing was ObSec, but nonetheless I complied since he was the TO. He asked me whether the obsec had even mattered on day 1 considering I was steamrolling people (at the end of the GT I had 94/95 battle points over the 5 rounds), and I admitted it didn't really matter much. Before each my two games on day 2 of the event, I informed each opponent of TO A's ruling and that my troops wouldn't be ObSec during our games.
5 - The event concludes. Later online I post on my Facebook blog and in our regional group page and I thank the TOs and all my opponents for a great event.
6 - The day after the event, I am contacted by TO B, who tells me that he and the other TO were contacted "by the ITC" because the ITC was worried that my list was illegal because of the DG prince having a DG relic and a DG warlord trait. I explained to him that the pages for those rules are based purely on who your warlord is, and that TO A had in fact agreed with me when TO A asked me about during the event! TO B confirms that what I was saying was also how TO B had always understood this issue, but that "the ITC" disagreed because of the first sentence on a different page, at the very start of the back of the DG codex. In the DG codex this is the part that says "Scions of Mortarion" at the top, but all 8th Ed codexes have an identical setup and an introductory paragraph with a few almost identical sentences. TO B tells me that the ITC thinks that the first sentence of that paragraph means that ALL codex back of the book rules can only be used when your army also has a detachment from that codex. I told him that 1) this interpretation only made sense if you completed ignored the remaining sentences in the opening paragraph, 2) that it also didn't make sense considering that the specific sub rules explicitly tell you in those their requirements (needing a DG detachment vs needing a DG warlord vs needing a DG psyker), and that 3) no one applies this interpretation on all back-of-the-book for things rules for psychic powers or rules for mandatory warlord traits (which no one thought required a detachment to apply) - for example, no one argues that a list of nothing but 3 Knights + Magnus leaves Magnus stuck casting nothing but smite. I'm then told that it's out of his hands, and that I needed to email the ITC at the FLG email address and that it was up to them, i.e. Reece and Frankie.
7 - I immediately write a frantic email to Reece and Frankie about the issue, at the email address TO B gave to me.
8 - A day or two later, I suddenly see on a local Facebook group (which is admin'd by some of the same TOs) a post from the GT account, stating that the top list (mine) was disqualified due to being illegal. The post doesn't state why my list was supposedly illegal, and comments are disabled. Then some local people (not me) try to post in the local group that 1) no, it was legal and 2) in any case, if they had a different interpretation, they shouldn't apply it retroactively after the event, especially not when I was told during the list that it was correct and I abided by all rulings they made during the event. These critical posts are also quickly deleted.
9 - I make a post about the whole thing on my FB blog. After a lot of discussion, Reece comes in and volunteers that despite what I was told, neither he nor anyone else at FLG/ITC had anything to do with this decision, and that they hadn't had time yet to review my email, and that the decision to submit ITC points with my wins excluded was a purely local decision that was before ITC could look at the issue. At that point it comes out that the (incorrect) interpretation that my list was illegal in fact made behind the scenes by someone I never talked to, who we'll call TO C. This person was not a TO at the event but was a player competing, but TO A and TO B became uncomfortable after the event when some ITC TOs elsewhere in the country saw my list and thought it might be illegal. TO C had not played actively in 8th competitive play but was well-respected and so they asked him to make a decision, and because this entire discussion was a game of telephone to which I was never invited until after it was over and the Facebook post went up, TO B then got bad information (which he passed on to me) that this was an official ITC decision and I needed to talk with them. Reece said on my FB page that he didn't want to get in the middle of this, and TO C (who again, never discussed this rules issue with me, and was not a TO at the event) posted in the discussion that the whole thing was already said and done and that he was refusing to have any discussion about it whatsoever with me. Beyond not wanting to get in the middle of some random small-time GT, I'm not surprised Reece didn't want to get involved, because as it turns out, TO C is in fact a good friend of Reece's who also helps with some ITC mission formatting stuff, among other genuinely laudable contributions to the community.
10 - At this point I don't have any recourse about having my points stolen, other than to be highly disappointed with the poor judgement of TO C (and the judgement of who knows who else he talked to, since he never talked with me) for making a retroactive rules call that I think is very, very, very clearly incorrect based on both RAW and RAI in the DG codex and all 8th ed codexes (which have parallel rules). I later receive an apology from TO A that I wasn't at least notified before the GT post went up, and I also receive an apology from TO B that he misunderstood and mis-relayed to me what was going on following the event. To this day I haven't gotten an apology for not being directly involved, or for the fact that this was retroactive and in contradiction to the TO rulings I received at the GT from people who were actually TOs at the event (all of which I followed). I decided there was nothing else I could do about the situation, and soon afterwards got 3rd place at another local GT with an almost identical list.
The actual rules in dispute: Issue #1: Daemons detachment was listed as ObSec even though it had a DG daemon prince. I already discussed this above, and I think most people here in this Dakka thread now realize this was legal. If anyone is still confused, go look at the ITC article on the FLG website regarding ObSec and on the FLG facebook post linking to that article. (I've seen some people get confused because they go to the FLG article and conflate this issue with a different one discussed in the article, when Reece gives the example of a Black Legion detachment with Horrors not getting ObSec. Obviously this just means that horrors in a black legion detachment break ObSec for a black legion detachment, not that you automatically void obsec for a DAEMONS detachment that might contain some Black Legion/CSM units, which would be ObSec so long as those CSM units are also Daemons).
Issue #2: Making use of the rules for codex warlord traits / the codex "free" warlord-based relic / codex psychic powers / codex maelstrom objectives without your army containing a detachment from that same codex. I think (and a lot of ITC players who've since talked with me privately about it also think) that it is extremely obvious and clear by both RAW and RAI that GW set up the special in the back of each 8th ed codex into two categories: that that require a detachment from that codex in order for your units (or certain of your units) to make use of those rules, and all the other rules which have different requirements to use based on warlord choice / unit keyword. In every codex, the first category includes army bonuses (i.e. chapter tactics) and stratagems, and the second category includes psychic powers, warlord traits, the one free warlord-based relic, and the unique maelstrom objectives. In addition to breaking out these two categories in the introductory paragraph, each codex also tells you again explicitly in the sections for each of these rules which ones require a detachment to unlock and which ones require something else to unlock (either choice of warlord or having a keyword psyker unit with access to the codex discipline on the psyker's datasheet).
To me, this setup is very clear, easy, and obvious, and shouldn't really require much explanation. Unfortunately, as I found out after the GT, it's not obvious to some people, and you actually have some TOs / events currently interpreting these rules incorrectly (and inconsistently) by arguing that despite what it says in those sections and despite how the intro paragraph is written, you somehow still can't use things like a codex warlord trait unless your list has a certain type of detachment from that codex. To these people, it doesn't seem to matter that GW could have written the codex almost any other way if that's how they wanted it to work, or that GW seemed to write the codexes so that they went out of their to distinguish between what rules require a codex detachment and which are available based on keywords on the warlord or psykers.
After seeing this pop up a few times on the Competitive 40kFB page, and after seeing people on Facebook get confused trying to debate the issue in post after post without having the rules in front of them, a month or so ago I finally took the time to condense the issue into one single graphic for the next time this debate inevitably came up. I'm sad I even had to make this graphic because I think it almost over-complicates what should be an easy issue, but I guess that's 40k for you:
Hope that clears the air. Apologies for the long post, but I figured I should put everything up front in one place because if I left some relevant stuff out, I might get asked about it and then the ongoing explanation of the GT or the underlying rules debate gets strung out over a bunch of different posts.
So, Virules, if I am understanding what you wrote. . .
You had a legal list that was based on deamons as its key word. You picked a single deamon from the deathguard codex, a deamon prince, made it your warlord, and picked a warlord trait from the deathguard codex, and then gave it a deathguard relic based on it being your warlord. Since your entire army was based around the DEAMON keyword and running from a DEAMON detachment, you figured your troops should get ops spec based on ITC rules for opspec. Someone could not see the logic, complained, and you got screwed?
I am sorry, your logic was sound to me. It's a deamon detachment, as long as everything shares the deamon keyword it's a battleforged army. Your warlord unlocks warlord traits and relics. It's simple. Unless I am missing something.
Again, sorry to see you get screwed. I hope the TO's learned something from this at least, or it could happen again. :(
Yeah, the obsec thing was my understanding of the ITC house rules as well, based on what was presented. Almost definitely will change when the daemon codex drops. I also wonder if it's in chapter approved.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Yeah, the obsec thing was my understanding of the ITC house rules as well, based on what was presented. Almost definitely will change when the daemon codex drops. I also wonder if it's in chapter approved.
It will be very interesting to see what the wording is for faction rules in the chaos daemons codex. If they maintain the current status quo of marine daemon units counting then you'll have things like a Spearhead Detachment of The Changeling+3 obliterator squads getting chapter tactics, stratagems, etc. Jury's out on whether or not that's a bad thing of course.
i have a tournament tomorrow and im gonna bring a super heavt det with mortarion magnus and chaos knight, still undecided if use a demon battalion with dp changeling 5 plague drones and 40 brimstone or use dg battalion with prince thypus poxes and cultists.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Huh. That's describing a different issue, but it looks like the ITC made the wrong call in that instance. Good on him for staying calm lol
It's not the ITC, which was part of why his response kinda sucked. It was the TO, the ITC simply puts forth a tournament packet for anyone to use and the TO is responsible for judgement calls. The TO should have notified him first and foremost before making the call public, but he definitely should not be smearing the ITC and dragging Reece into the mix. I think there is a argument in regards to the relic being RAW, I also think his comp was fine but it is hard to argue that he should have been playing with obsec since even with the CA leaked information you need a pure detachment in which case the DGDP kills that. Arguing how much of an impact it had is irrelevant since he is speaking for himself and not his opponents and also because I know I alter my game play HEAVILY based on whether a unit has obsec or not. I think he played a list with a clear advantage based on the error, So despite it being unfortunate that the tourny finished on a sour note I actually think the TO made the right call. Almost every big event for at least 2 years running has had either fast an loose play or errors in list building thats discovered about the winner and I think calls like this are important in order for there to be an expectation of fairness.
That was my list. The list was, and is, completely legal in all regards, and the long story short it is that I did not get the ITC points I fairly earned at a GT after the event was already over by a TO who was not actually a TO at the event at all (and who didn't discuss the issue with me) because said person unfortunately misinterpreted (and presumably still does) how the codex back of the rules book work.
Since the GT I regularly get messages on my Facebook blog from people who've heard about this and realized the TO was wrong, because they want to know whether this issue has been addressed by the ITC or GW. Unfortunately, it hasn't (I don't think GW should have to clarify this since I think the rules are clear and obvious, but clearly I'm wrong since a bad call was made after the GT, and there are presumably at least some other TOs likewise misinterpreting the new codexes to this day).
For anyone who wants specifics on either what actually happened or the two questions on the list's legality...
Everything that happened at and after the GT:
1 - I made a legal list that had, among other things, a detachment comprised of index Chaos Daemons plus a Death Guard daemon prince (who had a DG non-stratagem relic and a DG warlord trait), but no DG-specific detachment(s). Just in case there were any questions about it, and to avoid surprising anyone, on my army list I marked the troops in this detachment as ObSec and I marked my relic and warlord trait (despite this not being a requirement for the event) just in case anyone wanted to ask questions or discuss before the game. I made a hard copy of my list for each opponent in case they wanted it.
2 - Upon arriving at the event, and prior to the rounds starting, I walked over to the two TOs (we'll call them TO A and TO B) and tried to hand them my list in case they were reviewing for everyone or had questions about mine in particular. They declined.
3 - Partway through the first of two days of the GT, TO A came over to me before my second or third round and said he was confused why my Daemons detachment had ObSec troops when it included a DG daemon prince. I told him that Reece had clarified multiple times on the FLG website and on the FLG facebook page that there is an additional rule of ITC ObSec for daemons in which a Keyword Faction "Chaos" unit that was also a Keyword "Daemon" unit could be included in a Daemons detachment without brreaking obsec (I believe the head of NOVA also remarked on the facebook page to the effect of, "We checked with GW and confirmed that this was the correct intent."). I had multiple screenshots ready on my phone in case the question came up, and showed TO A. He didn't seem to like it but agreed that my list was correct and that my troops were ObSec.
4 - After the rounds on the first day but before the rounds on the second day, I am contacted via Facebook by TO A, who asked me about having a DG relic and DG warlord trait on the DG prince when I didn't have a DG detachment. I screenshot from the DG codex and showed him the rules for relics and warlord traits and explained that both the warlord trait and the one "free" relic are based solely on who your warlord is. TO A then said "ahh well the relic is fine then" but objected to the troops being ObSec due to the DGDP in the detachment. I again showed him the screenshots of Reece / FLG explaining that exactly what I did in my list was fully ObSec.
He then basically said he still didn't like it, and that there was some ITC Google Docs spreedsheet about factions and ObSec, and that because this niche situation wasn't somehow incorporated into the spreadsheet (how would you even do that?), he was ruling for the rest of the event that my troops weren't obsec. I told him I was pretty frustrated considering that I had proof that the ITC went out of its way multiple times to explicitly explain that was I was doing was ObSec, but nonetheless I complied since he was the TO. He asked me whether the obsec had even mattered on day 1 considering I was steamrolling people (at the end of the GT I had 94/95 battle points over the 5 rounds), and I admitted it didn't really matter much. Before each my two games on day 2 of the event, I informed each opponent of TO A's ruling and that my troops wouldn't be ObSec during our games.
5 - The event concludes. Later online I post on my Facebook blog and in our regional group page and I thank the TOs and all my opponents for a great event.
6 - The day after the event, I am contacted by TO B, who tells me that he and the other TO were contacted "by the ITC" because the ITC was worried that my list was illegal because of the DG prince having a DG relic and a DG warlord trait. I explained to him that the pages for those rules are based purely on who your warlord is, and that TO A had in fact agreed with me when TO A asked me about during the event! TO B confirms that what I was saying was also how TO B had always understood this issue, but that "the ITC" disagreed because of the first sentence on a different page, at the very start of the back of the DG codex. In the DG codex this is the part that says "Scions of Mortarion" at the top, but all 8th Ed codexes have an identical setup and an introductory paragraph with a few almost identical sentences. TO B tells me that the ITC thinks that the first sentence of that paragraph means that ALL codex back of the book rules can only be used when your army also has a detachment from that codex. I told him that 1) this interpretation only made sense if you completed ignored the remaining sentences in the opening paragraph, 2) that it also didn't make sense considering that the specific sub rules explicitly tell you in those their requirements (needing a DG detachment vs needing a DG warlord vs needing a DG psyker), and that 3) no one applies this interpretation on all back-of-the-book for things rules for psychic powers or rules for mandatory warlord traits (which no one thought required a detachment to apply) - for example, no one argues that a list of nothing but 3 Knights + Magnus leaves Magnus stuck casting nothing but smite. I'm then told that it's out of his hands, and that I needed to email the ITC at the FLG email address and that it was up to them, i.e. Reece and Frankie.
7 - I immediately write a frantic email to Reece and Frankie about the issue, at the email address TO B gave to me.
8 - A day or two later, I suddenly see on a local Facebook group (which is admin'd by some of the same TOs) a post from the GT account, stating that the top list (mine) was disqualified due to being illegal. The post doesn't state why my list was supposedly illegal, and comments are disabled. Then some local people (not me) try to post in the local group that 1) no, it was legal and 2) in any case, if they had a different interpretation, they shouldn't apply it retroactively after the event, especially not when I was told during the list that it was correct and I abided by all rulings they made during the event. These critical posts are also quickly deleted.
9 - I make a post about the whole thing on my FB blog. After a lot of discussion, Reece comes in and volunteers that despite what I was told, neither he nor anyone else at FLG/ITC had anything to do with this decision, and that they hadn't had time yet to review my email, and that the decision to submit ITC points with my wins excluded was a purely local decision that was before ITC could look at the issue. At that point it comes out that the (incorrect) interpretation that my list was illegal in fact made behind the scenes by someone I never talked to, who we'll call TO C. This person was not a TO at the event but was a player competing, but TO A and TO B became uncomfortable after the event when some ITC TOs elsewhere in the country saw my list and thought it might be illegal. TO C had not played actively in 8th competitive play but was well-respected and so they asked him to make a decision, and because this entire discussion was a game of telephone to which I was never invited until after it was over and the Facebook post went up, TO B then got bad information (which he passed on to me) that this was an official ITC decision and I needed to talk with them. Reece said on my FB page that he didn't want to get in the middle of this, and TO C (who again, never discussed this rules issue with me, and was not a TO at the event) posted in the discussion that the whole thing was already said and done and that he was refusing to have any discussion about it whatsoever with me. Beyond not wanting to get in the middle of some random small-time GT, I'm not surprised Reece didn't want to get involved, because as it turns out, TO C is in fact a good friend of Reece's who also helps with some ITC mission formatting stuff, among other genuinely laudable contributions to the community.
10 - At this point I don't have any recourse about having my points stolen, other than to be highly disappointed with the poor judgement of TO C (and the judgement of who knows who else he talked to, since he never talked with me) for making a retroactive rules call that I think is very, very, very clearly incorrect based on both RAW and RAI in the DG codex and all 8th ed codexes (which have parallel rules). I later receive an apology from TO A that I wasn't at least notified before the GT post went up, and I also receive an apology from TO B that he misunderstood and mis-relayed to me what was going on following the event. To this day I haven't gotten an apology for not being directly involved, or for the fact that this was retroactive and in contradiction to the TO rulings I received at the GT from people who were actually TOs at the event (all of which I followed). I decided there was nothing else I could do about the situation, and soon afterwards got 3rd place at another local GT with an almost identical list.
The actual rules in dispute: Issue #1: Daemons detachment was listed as ObSec even though it had a DG daemon prince. I already discussed this above, and I think most people here in this Dakka thread now realize this was legal. If anyone is still confused, go look at the ITC article on the FLG website regarding ObSec and on the FLG facebook post linking to that article. (I've seen some people get confused because they go to the FLG article and conflate this issue with a different one discussed in the article, when Reece gives the example of a Black Legion detachment with Horrors not getting ObSec. Obviously this just means that horrors in a black legion detachment break ObSec for a black legion detachment, not that you automatically void obsec for a DAEMONS detachment that might contain some Black Legion/CSM units, which would be ObSec so long as those CSM units are also Daemons).
Issue #2: Making use of the rules for codex warlord traits / the codex "free" warlord-based relic / codex psychic powers / codex maelstrom objectives without your army containing a detachment from that same codex. I think (and a lot of ITC players who've since talked with me privately about it also think) that it is extremely obvious and clear by both RAW and RAI that GW set up the special in the back of each 8th ed codex into two categories: that that require a detachment from that codex in order for your units (or certain of your units) to make use of those rules, and all the other rules which have different requirements to use based on warlord choice / unit keyword. In every codex, the first category includes army bonuses (i.e. chapter tactics) and stratagems, and the second category includes psychic powers, warlord traits, the one free warlord-based relic, and the unique maelstrom objectives. In addition to breaking out these two categories in the introductory paragraph, each codex also tells you again explicitly in the sections for each of these rules which ones require a detachment to unlock and which ones require something else to unlock (either choice of warlord or having a keyword psyker unit with access to the codex discipline on the psyker's datasheet).
To me, this setup is very clear, easy, and obvious, and shouldn't really require much explanation. Unfortunately, as I found out after the GT, it's not obvious to some people, and you actually have some TOs / events currently interpreting these rules incorrectly (and inconsistently) by arguing that despite what it says in those sections and despite how the intro paragraph is written, you somehow still can't use things like a codex warlord trait unless your list has a certain type of detachment from that codex. To these people, it doesn't seem to matter that GW could have written the codex almost any other way if that's how they wanted it to work, or that GW seemed to write the codexes so that they went out of their to distinguish between what rules require a codex detachment and which are available based on keywords on the warlord or psykers.
After seeing this pop up a few times on the Competitive 40kFB page, and after seeing people on Facebook get confused trying to debate the issue in post after post without having the rules in front of them, a month or so ago I finally took the time to condense the issue into one single graphic for the next time this debate inevitably came up. I'm sad I even had to make this graphic because I think it almost over-complicates what should be an easy issue, but I guess that's 40k for you:
Hope that clears the air. Apologies for the long post, but I figured I should put everything up front in one place because if I left some relevant stuff out, I might get asked about it and then the ongoing explanation of the GT or the underlying rules debate gets strung out over a bunch of different posts.
Thanks for replying and getting your side out there even if it was long winded I want to add a few things.
1st- I love your blog and your conversion work is amazing! Between you and Guita Ramsus I can safely avoid starting a 5th CSM army as your combined efforts leave little room for new things ha ha.
2nd- You seem like a heck of a good guy, I saw you volunteered during the Texas disaster so obviously this toy soldier BS pales as anything really important.
3rd- Just a little friendly advice in regard to tournaments, although it appears you were technically right, generally if you need 2000 characters (I am guessing ) a flow chart and possible ven diagrams to explain how your list is legal before even mentioning the levels of cheese you are playing at a small event and to compound that your army isn't even primed, your gunning for trouble. If I am not mistaken you weren't local either correct? So basically a stranger shows up to a small event with a convoluted list of supreme cheddar and precedes to club every seal in sight, yea I can see how and why folks may have gotten emotional after the fact and jumped on you. I am in no way saying they were right, they should have done something at the door and NEVER decided to post a decision without a polite call to you first. I am just laying out the situation as an outside observer and suggesting next time for your own sanity that you get the all clear well in advance or take something not quite so complicated.
4th Sorry I got some info wrong initially, it was not my intention and feel free to correct me again if I got any other details incorrect.
orkswubwub wrote: what is the benefit of the heldrake compared to the foetid bloatdrone? The greater movement speed seems to be the determing factor but not sure it is worth the points?
Two extra wounds, regen a wound in your turn, 18” Baleflamer range to poke a gunner squad in the eye with better AP, damage, and non-deteriorating strength
Captyn_Bob wrote: Huh. That's describing a different issue, but it looks like the ITC made the wrong call in that instance. Good on him for staying calm lol
It's not the ITC, which was part of why his response kinda sucked. It was the TO, the ITC simply puts forth a tournament packet for anyone to use and the TO is responsible for judgement calls. The TO should have notified him first and foremost before making the call public, but he definitely should not be smearing the ITC and dragging Reece into the mix. I think there is a argument in regards to the relic being RAW, I also think his comp was fine but it is hard to argue that he should have been playing with obsec since even with the CA leaked information you need a pure detachment in which case the DGDP kills that. Arguing how much of an impact it had is irrelevant since he is speaking for himself and not his opponents and also because I know I alter my game play HEAVILY based on whether a unit has obsec or not. I think he played a list with a clear advantage based on the error, So despite it being unfortunate that the tourny finished on a sour note I actually think the TO made the right call. Almost every big event for at least 2 years running has had either fast an loose play or errors in list building thats discovered about the winner and I think calls like this are important in order for there to be an expectation of fairness.
That was my list. The list was, and is, completely legal in all regards, and the long story short it is that I did not get the ITC points I fairly earned at a GT after the event was already over by a TO who was not actually a TO at the event at all (and who didn't discuss the issue with me) because said person unfortunately misinterpreted (and presumably still does) how the codex back of the rules book work.
Since the GT I regularly get messages on my Facebook blog from people who've heard about this and realized the TO was wrong, because they want to know whether this issue has been addressed by the ITC or GW. Unfortunately, it hasn't (I don't think GW should have to clarify this since I think the rules are clear and obvious, but clearly I'm wrong since a bad call was made after the GT, and there are presumably at least some other TOs likewise misinterpreting the new codexes to this day).
For anyone who wants specifics on either what actually happened or the two questions on the list's legality...
Everything that happened at and after the GT:
1 - I made a legal list that had, among other things, a detachment comprised of index Chaos Daemons plus a Death Guard daemon prince (who had a DG non-stratagem relic and a DG warlord trait), but no DG-specific detachment(s). Just in case there were any questions about it, and to avoid surprising anyone, on my army list I marked the troops in this detachment as ObSec and I marked my relic and warlord trait (despite this not being a requirement for the event) just in case anyone wanted to ask questions or discuss before the game. I made a hard copy of my list for each opponent in case they wanted it.
2 - Upon arriving at the event, and prior to the rounds starting, I walked over to the two TOs (we'll call them TO A and TO B) and tried to hand them my list in case they were reviewing for everyone or had questions about mine in particular. They declined.
3 - Partway through the first of two days of the GT, TO A came over to me before my second or third round and said he was confused why my Daemons detachment had ObSec troops when it included a DG daemon prince. I told him that Reece had clarified multiple times on the FLG website and on the FLG facebook page that there is an additional rule of ITC ObSec for daemons in which a Keyword Faction "Chaos" unit that was also a Keyword "Daemon" unit could be included in a Daemons detachment without brreaking obsec (I believe the head of NOVA also remarked on the facebook page to the effect of, "We checked with GW and confirmed that this was the correct intent."). I had multiple screenshots ready on my phone in case the question came up, and showed TO A. He didn't seem to like it but agreed that my list was correct and that my troops were ObSec.
4 - After the rounds on the first day but before the rounds on the second day, I am contacted via Facebook by TO A, who asked me about having a DG relic and DG warlord trait on the DG prince when I didn't have a DG detachment. I screenshot from the DG codex and showed him the rules for relics and warlord traits and explained that both the warlord trait and the one "free" relic are based solely on who your warlord is. TO A then said "ahh well the relic is fine then" but objected to the troops being ObSec due to the DGDP in the detachment. I again showed him the screenshots of Reece / FLG explaining that exactly what I did in my list was fully ObSec.
He then basically said he still didn't like it, and that there was some ITC Google Docs spreedsheet about factions and ObSec, and that because this niche situation wasn't somehow incorporated into the spreadsheet (how would you even do that?), he was ruling for the rest of the event that my troops weren't obsec. I told him I was pretty frustrated considering that I had proof that the ITC went out of its way multiple times to explicitly explain that was I was doing was ObSec, but nonetheless I complied since he was the TO. He asked me whether the obsec had even mattered on day 1 considering I was steamrolling people (at the end of the GT I had 94/95 battle points over the 5 rounds), and I admitted it didn't really matter much. Before each my two games on day 2 of the event, I informed each opponent of TO A's ruling and that my troops wouldn't be ObSec during our games.
5 - The event concludes. Later online I post on my Facebook blog and in our regional group page and I thank the TOs and all my opponents for a great event.
6 - The day after the event, I am contacted by TO B, who tells me that he and the other TO were contacted "by the ITC" because the ITC was worried that my list was illegal because of the DG prince having a DG relic and a DG warlord trait. I explained to him that the pages for those rules are based purely on who your warlord is, and that TO A had in fact agreed with me when TO A asked me about during the event! TO B confirms that what I was saying was also how TO B had always understood this issue, but that "the ITC" disagreed because of the first sentence on a different page, at the very start of the back of the DG codex. In the DG codex this is the part that says "Scions of Mortarion" at the top, but all 8th Ed codexes have an identical setup and an introductory paragraph with a few almost identical sentences. TO B tells me that the ITC thinks that the first sentence of that paragraph means that ALL codex back of the book rules can only be used when your army also has a detachment from that codex. I told him that 1) this interpretation only made sense if you completed ignored the remaining sentences in the opening paragraph, 2) that it also didn't make sense considering that the specific sub rules explicitly tell you in those their requirements (needing a DG detachment vs needing a DG warlord vs needing a DG psyker), and that 3) no one applies this interpretation on all back-of-the-book for things rules for psychic powers or rules for mandatory warlord traits (which no one thought required a detachment to apply) - for example, no one argues that a list of nothing but 3 Knights + Magnus leaves Magnus stuck casting nothing but smite. I'm then told that it's out of his hands, and that I needed to email the ITC at the FLG email address and that it was up to them, i.e. Reece and Frankie.
7 - I immediately write a frantic email to Reece and Frankie about the issue, at the email address TO B gave to me.
8 - A day or two later, I suddenly see on a local Facebook group (which is admin'd by some of the same TOs) a post from the GT account, stating that the top list (mine) was disqualified due to being illegal. The post doesn't state why my list was supposedly illegal, and comments are disabled. Then some local people (not me) try to post in the local group that 1) no, it was legal and 2) in any case, if they had a different interpretation, they shouldn't apply it retroactively after the event, especially not when I was told during the list that it was correct and I abided by all rulings they made during the event. These critical posts are also quickly deleted.
9 - I make a post about the whole thing on my FB blog. After a lot of discussion, Reece comes in and volunteers that despite what I was told, neither he nor anyone else at FLG/ITC had anything to do with this decision, and that they hadn't had time yet to review my email, and that the decision to submit ITC points with my wins excluded was a purely local decision that was before ITC could look at the issue. At that point it comes out that the (incorrect) interpretation that my list was illegal in fact made behind the scenes by someone I never talked to, who we'll call TO C. This person was not a TO at the event but was a player competing, but TO A and TO B became uncomfortable after the event when some ITC TOs elsewhere in the country saw my list and thought it might be illegal. TO C had not played actively in 8th competitive play but was well-respected and so they asked him to make a decision, and because this entire discussion was a game of telephone to which I was never invited until after it was over and the Facebook post went up, TO B then got bad information (which he passed on to me) that this was an official ITC decision and I needed to talk with them. Reece said on my FB page that he didn't want to get in the middle of this, and TO C (who again, never discussed this rules issue with me, and was not a TO at the event) posted in the discussion that the whole thing was already said and done and that he was refusing to have any discussion about it whatsoever with me. Beyond not wanting to get in the middle of some random small-time GT, I'm not surprised Reece didn't want to get involved, because as it turns out, TO C is in fact a good friend of Reece's who also helps with some ITC mission formatting stuff, among other genuinely laudable contributions to the community.
10 - At this point I don't have any recourse about having my points stolen, other than to be highly disappointed with the poor judgement of TO C (and the judgement of who knows who else he talked to, since he never talked with me) for making a retroactive rules call that I think is very, very, very clearly incorrect based on both RAW and RAI in the DG codex and all 8th ed codexes (which have parallel rules). I later receive an apology from TO A that I wasn't at least notified before the GT post went up, and I also receive an apology from TO B that he misunderstood and mis-relayed to me what was going on following the event. To this day I haven't gotten an apology for not being directly involved, or for the fact that this was retroactive and in contradiction to the TO rulings I received at the GT from people who were actually TOs at the event (all of which I followed). I decided there was nothing else I could do about the situation, and soon afterwards got 3rd place at another local GT with an almost identical list.
The actual rules in dispute: Issue #1: Daemons detachment was listed as ObSec even though it had a DG daemon prince. I already discussed this above, and I think most people here in this Dakka thread now realize this was legal. If anyone is still confused, go look at the ITC article on the FLG website regarding ObSec and on the FLG facebook post linking to that article. (I've seen some people get confused because they go to the FLG article and conflate this issue with a different one discussed in the article, when Reece gives the example of a Black Legion detachment with Horrors not getting ObSec. Obviously this just means that horrors in a black legion detachment break ObSec for a black legion detachment, not that you automatically void obsec for a DAEMONS detachment that might contain some Black Legion/CSM units, which would be ObSec so long as those CSM units are also Daemons).
Issue #2: Making use of the rules for codex warlord traits / the codex "free" warlord-based relic / codex psychic powers / codex maelstrom objectives without your army containing a detachment from that same codex. I think (and a lot of ITC players who've since talked with me privately about it also think) that it is extremely obvious and clear by both RAW and RAI that GW set up the special in the back of each 8th ed codex into two categories: that that require a detachment from that codex in order for your units (or certain of your units) to make use of those rules, and all the other rules which have different requirements to use based on warlord choice / unit keyword. In every codex, the first category includes army bonuses (i.e. chapter tactics) and stratagems, and the second category includes psychic powers, warlord traits, the one free warlord-based relic, and the unique maelstrom objectives. In addition to breaking out these two categories in the introductory paragraph, each codex also tells you again explicitly in the sections for each of these rules which ones require a detachment to unlock and which ones require something else to unlock (either choice of warlord or having a keyword psyker unit with access to the codex discipline on the psyker's datasheet).
To me, this setup is very clear, easy, and obvious, and shouldn't really require much explanation. Unfortunately, as I found out after the GT, it's not obvious to some people, and you actually have some TOs / events currently interpreting these rules incorrectly (and inconsistently) by arguing that despite what it says in those sections and despite how the intro paragraph is written, you somehow still can't use things like a codex warlord trait unless your list has a certain type of detachment from that codex. To these people, it doesn't seem to matter that GW could have written the codex almost any other way if that's how they wanted it to work, or that GW seemed to write the codexes so that they went out of their to distinguish between what rules require a codex detachment and which are available based on keywords on the warlord or psykers.
After seeing this pop up a few times on the Competitive 40kFB page, and after seeing people on Facebook get confused trying to debate the issue in post after post without having the rules in front of them, a month or so ago I finally took the time to condense the issue into one single graphic for the next time this debate inevitably came up. I'm sad I even had to make this graphic because I think it almost over-complicates what should be an easy issue, but I guess that's 40k for you:
Hope that clears the air. Apologies for the long post, but I figured I should put everything up front in one place because if I left some relevant stuff out, I might get asked about it and then the ongoing explanation of the GT or the underlying rules debate gets strung out over a bunch of different posts.
Thanks for replying and getting your side out there even if it was long winded I want to add a few things.
1st- I love your blog and your conversion work is amazing! Between you and Guita Ramsus I can safely avoid starting a 5th CSM army as your combined efforts leave little room for new things ha ha.
2nd- You seem like a heck of a good guy, I saw you volunteered during the Texas disaster so obviously this toy soldier BS pales as anything really important.
3rd- Just a little friendly advice in regard to tournaments, although it appears you were technically right, generally if you need 2000 characters (I am guessing ) a flow chart and possible ven diagrams to explain how your list is legal before even mentioning the levels of cheese you are playing at a small event and to compound that your army isn't even primed, your gunning for trouble. If I am not mistaken you weren't local either correct? So basically a stranger shows up to a small event with a convoluted list of supreme cheddar and precedes to club every seal in sight, yea I can see how and why folks may have gotten emotional after the fact and jumped on you. I am in no way saying they were right, they should have done something at the door and NEVER decided to post a decision without a polite call to you first. I am just laying out the situation as an outside observer and suggesting next time for your own sanity that you get the all clear well in advance or take something not quite so complicated.
4th Sorry I got some info wrong initially, it was not my intention and feel free to correct me again if I got any other details incorrect.
PS Paint your conversions already
Seems like trolling.
3. If you show up at a GT anywhere, Chedder lists should be treated the same as any other list. Purpose of a ITC GT is to win. If seals are in the lineup. Club them but be polite.
I looked at the rules (no flow chart necessary). It looks legit though I do appreciate you including all the relevant rules in one document. I recently had to forfeit two wins in a local league to keep the peace. It happens. Don’t get broken up about it.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Huh. That's describing a different issue, but it looks like the ITC made the wrong call in that instance. Good on him for staying calm lol
It's not the ITC, which was part of why his response kinda sucked. It was the TO, the ITC simply puts forth a tournament packet for anyone to use and the TO is responsible for judgement calls. The TO should have notified him first and foremost before making the call public, but he definitely should not be smearing the ITC and dragging Reece into the mix. I think there is a argument in regards to the relic being RAW, I also think his comp was fine but it is hard to argue that he should have been playing with obsec since even with the CA leaked information you need a pure detachment in which case the DGDP kills that. Arguing how much of an impact it had is irrelevant since he is speaking for himself and not his opponents and also because I know I alter my game play HEAVILY based on whether a unit has obsec or not. I think he played a list with a clear advantage based on the error, So despite it being unfortunate that the tourny finished on a sour note I actually think the TO made the right call. Almost every big event for at least 2 years running has had either fast an loose play or errors in list building thats discovered about the winner and I think calls like this are important in order for there to be an expectation of fairness.
That was my list. The list was, and is, completely legal in all regards, and the long story short it is that I did not get the ITC points I fairly earned at a GT after the event was already over by a TO who was not actually a TO at the event at all (and who didn't discuss the issue with me) because said person unfortunately misinterpreted (and presumably still does) how the codex back of the rules book work.
Since the GT I regularly get messages on my Facebook blog from people who've heard about this and realized the TO was wrong, because they want to know whether this issue has been addressed by the ITC or GW. Unfortunately, it hasn't (I don't think GW should have to clarify this since I think the rules are clear and obvious, but clearly I'm wrong since a bad call was made after the GT, and there are presumably at least some other TOs likewise misinterpreting the new codexes to this day).
For anyone who wants specifics on either what actually happened or the two questions on the list's legality...
Everything that happened at and after the GT:
1 - I made a legal list that had, among other things, a detachment comprised of index Chaos Daemons plus a Death Guard daemon prince (who had a DG non-stratagem relic and a DG warlord trait), but no DG-specific detachment(s). Just in case there were any questions about it, and to avoid surprising anyone, on my army list I marked the troops in this detachment as ObSec and I marked my relic and warlord trait (despite this not being a requirement for the event) just in case anyone wanted to ask questions or discuss before the game. I made a hard copy of my list for each opponent in case they wanted it.
2 - Upon arriving at the event, and prior to the rounds starting, I walked over to the two TOs (we'll call them TO A and TO B) and tried to hand them my list in case they were reviewing for everyone or had questions about mine in particular. They declined.
3 - Partway through the first of two days of the GT, TO A came over to me before my second or third round and said he was confused why my Daemons detachment had ObSec troops when it included a DG daemon prince. I told him that Reece had clarified multiple times on the FLG website and on the FLG facebook page that there is an additional rule of ITC ObSec for daemons in which a Keyword Faction "Chaos" unit that was also a Keyword "Daemon" unit could be included in a Daemons detachment without brreaking obsec (I believe the head of NOVA also remarked on the facebook page to the effect of, "We checked with GW and confirmed that this was the correct intent."). I had multiple screenshots ready on my phone in case the question came up, and showed TO A. He didn't seem to like it but agreed that my list was correct and that my troops were ObSec.
4 - After the rounds on the first day but before the rounds on the second day, I am contacted via Facebook by TO A, who asked me about having a DG relic and DG warlord trait on the DG prince when I didn't have a DG detachment. I screenshot from the DG codex and showed him the rules for relics and warlord traits and explained that both the warlord trait and the one "free" relic are based solely on who your warlord is. TO A then said "ahh well the relic is fine then" but objected to the troops being ObSec due to the DGDP in the detachment. I again showed him the screenshots of Reece / FLG explaining that exactly what I did in my list was fully ObSec.
He then basically said he still didn't like it, and that there was some ITC Google Docs spreedsheet about factions and ObSec, and that because this niche situation wasn't somehow incorporated into the spreadsheet (how would you even do that?), he was ruling for the rest of the event that my troops weren't obsec. I told him I was pretty frustrated considering that I had proof that the ITC went out of its way multiple times to explicitly explain that was I was doing was ObSec, but nonetheless I complied since he was the TO. He asked me whether the obsec had even mattered on day 1 considering I was steamrolling people (at the end of the GT I had 94/95 battle points over the 5 rounds), and I admitted it didn't really matter much. Before each my two games on day 2 of the event, I informed each opponent of TO A's ruling and that my troops wouldn't be ObSec during our games.
5 - The event concludes. Later online I post on my Facebook blog and in our regional group page and I thank the TOs and all my opponents for a great event.
6 - The day after the event, I am contacted by TO B, who tells me that he and the other TO were contacted "by the ITC" because the ITC was worried that my list was illegal because of the DG prince having a DG relic and a DG warlord trait. I explained to him that the pages for those rules are based purely on who your warlord is, and that TO A had in fact agreed with me when TO A asked me about during the event! TO B confirms that what I was saying was also how TO B had always understood this issue, but that "the ITC" disagreed because of the first sentence on a different page, at the very start of the back of the DG codex. In the DG codex this is the part that says "Scions of Mortarion" at the top, but all 8th Ed codexes have an identical setup and an introductory paragraph with a few almost identical sentences. TO B tells me that the ITC thinks that the first sentence of that paragraph means that ALL codex back of the book rules can only be used when your army also has a detachment from that codex. I told him that 1) this interpretation only made sense if you completed ignored the remaining sentences in the opening paragraph, 2) that it also didn't make sense considering that the specific sub rules explicitly tell you in those their requirements (needing a DG detachment vs needing a DG warlord vs needing a DG psyker), and that 3) no one applies this interpretation on all back-of-the-book for things rules for psychic powers or rules for mandatory warlord traits (which no one thought required a detachment to apply) - for example, no one argues that a list of nothing but 3 Knights + Magnus leaves Magnus stuck casting nothing but smite. I'm then told that it's out of his hands, and that I needed to email the ITC at the FLG email address and that it was up to them, i.e. Reece and Frankie.
7 - I immediately write a frantic email to Reece and Frankie about the issue, at the email address TO B gave to me.
8 - A day or two later, I suddenly see on a local Facebook group (which is admin'd by some of the same TOs) a post from the GT account, stating that the top list (mine) was disqualified due to being illegal. The post doesn't state why my list was supposedly illegal, and comments are disabled. Then some local people (not me) try to post in the local group that 1) no, it was legal and 2) in any case, if they had a different interpretation, they shouldn't apply it retroactively after the event, especially not when I was told during the list that it was correct and I abided by all rulings they made during the event. These critical posts are also quickly deleted.
9 - I make a post about the whole thing on my FB blog. After a lot of discussion, Reece comes in and volunteers that despite what I was told, neither he nor anyone else at FLG/ITC had anything to do with this decision, and that they hadn't had time yet to review my email, and that the decision to submit ITC points with my wins excluded was a purely local decision that was before ITC could look at the issue. At that point it comes out that the (incorrect) interpretation that my list was illegal in fact made behind the scenes by someone I never talked to, who we'll call TO C. This person was not a TO at the event but was a player competing, but TO A and TO B became uncomfortable after the event when some ITC TOs elsewhere in the country saw my list and thought it might be illegal. TO C had not played actively in 8th competitive play but was well-respected and so they asked him to make a decision, and because this entire discussion was a game of telephone to which I was never invited until after it was over and the Facebook post went up, TO B then got bad information (which he passed on to me) that this was an official ITC decision and I needed to talk with them. Reece said on my FB page that he didn't want to get in the middle of this, and TO C (who again, never discussed this rules issue with me, and was not a TO at the event) posted in the discussion that the whole thing was already said and done and that he was refusing to have any discussion about it whatsoever with me. Beyond not wanting to get in the middle of some random small-time GT, I'm not surprised Reece didn't want to get involved, because as it turns out, TO C is in fact a good friend of Reece's who also helps with some ITC mission formatting stuff, among other genuinely laudable contributions to the community.
10 - At this point I don't have any recourse about having my points stolen, other than to be highly disappointed with the poor judgement of TO C (and the judgement of who knows who else he talked to, since he never talked with me) for making a retroactive rules call that I think is very, very, very clearly incorrect based on both RAW and RAI in the DG codex and all 8th ed codexes (which have parallel rules). I later receive an apology from TO A that I wasn't at least notified before the GT post went up, and I also receive an apology from TO B that he misunderstood and mis-relayed to me what was going on following the event. To this day I haven't gotten an apology for not being directly involved, or for the fact that this was retroactive and in contradiction to the TO rulings I received at the GT from people who were actually TOs at the event (all of which I followed). I decided there was nothing else I could do about the situation, and soon afterwards got 3rd place at another local GT with an almost identical list.
The actual rules in dispute: Issue #1: Daemons detachment was listed as ObSec even though it had a DG daemon prince. I already discussed this above, and I think most people here in this Dakka thread now realize this was legal. If anyone is still confused, go look at the ITC article on the FLG website regarding ObSec and on the FLG facebook post linking to that article. (I've seen some people get confused because they go to the FLG article and conflate this issue with a different one discussed in the article, when Reece gives the example of a Black Legion detachment with Horrors not getting ObSec. Obviously this just means that horrors in a black legion detachment break ObSec for a black legion detachment, not that you automatically void obsec for a DAEMONS detachment that might contain some Black Legion/CSM units, which would be ObSec so long as those CSM units are also Daemons).
Issue #2: Making use of the rules for codex warlord traits / the codex "free" warlord-based relic / codex psychic powers / codex maelstrom objectives without your army containing a detachment from that same codex. I think (and a lot of ITC players who've since talked with me privately about it also think) that it is extremely obvious and clear by both RAW and RAI that GW set up the special in the back of each 8th ed codex into two categories: that that require a detachment from that codex in order for your units (or certain of your units) to make use of those rules, and all the other rules which have different requirements to use based on warlord choice / unit keyword. In every codex, the first category includes army bonuses (i.e. chapter tactics) and stratagems, and the second category includes psychic powers, warlord traits, the one free warlord-based relic, and the unique maelstrom objectives. In addition to breaking out these two categories in the introductory paragraph, each codex also tells you again explicitly in the sections for each of these rules which ones require a detachment to unlock and which ones require something else to unlock (either choice of warlord or having a keyword psyker unit with access to the codex discipline on the psyker's datasheet).
To me, this setup is very clear, easy, and obvious, and shouldn't really require much explanation. Unfortunately, as I found out after the GT, it's not obvious to some people, and you actually have some TOs / events currently interpreting these rules incorrectly (and inconsistently) by arguing that despite what it says in those sections and despite how the intro paragraph is written, you somehow still can't use things like a codex warlord trait unless your list has a certain type of detachment from that codex. To these people, it doesn't seem to matter that GW could have written the codex almost any other way if that's how they wanted it to work, or that GW seemed to write the codexes so that they went out of their to distinguish between what rules require a codex detachment and which are available based on keywords on the warlord or psykers.
After seeing this pop up a few times on the Competitive 40kFB page, and after seeing people on Facebook get confused trying to debate the issue in post after post without having the rules in front of them, a month or so ago I finally took the time to condense the issue into one single graphic for the next time this debate inevitably came up. I'm sad I even had to make this graphic because I think it almost over-complicates what should be an easy issue, but I guess that's 40k for you:
Hope that clears the air. Apologies for the long post, but I figured I should put everything up front in one place because if I left some relevant stuff out, I might get asked about it and then the ongoing explanation of the GT or the underlying rules debate gets strung out over a bunch of different posts.
Thanks for replying and getting your side out there even if it was long winded I want to add a few things.
1st- I love your blog and your conversion work is amazing! Between you and Guita Ramsus I can safely avoid starting a 5th CSM army as your combined efforts leave little room for new things ha ha.
2nd- You seem like a heck of a good guy, I saw you volunteered during the Texas disaster so obviously this toy soldier BS pales as anything really important.
3rd- Just a little friendly advice in regard to tournaments, although it appears you were technically right, generally if you need 2000 characters (I am guessing ) a flow chart and possible ven diagrams to explain how your list is legal before even mentioning the levels of cheese you are playing at a small event and to compound that your army isn't even primed, your gunning for trouble. If I am not mistaken you weren't local either correct? So basically a stranger shows up to a small event with a convoluted list of supreme cheddar and precedes to club every seal in sight, yea I can see how and why folks may have gotten emotional after the fact and jumped on you. I am in no way saying they were right, they should have done something at the door and NEVER decided to post a decision without a polite call to you first. I am just laying out the situation as an outside observer and suggesting next time for your own sanity that you get the all clear well in advance or take something not quite so complicated.
4th Sorry I got some info wrong initially, it was not my intention and feel free to correct me again if I got any other details incorrect.
PS Paint your conversions already
Seems like trolling.
3. If you show up at a GT anywhere, Chedder lists should be treated the same as any other list. Purpose of a ITC GT is to win. If seals are in the lineup. Club them but be polite.
I looked at the rules (no flow chart necessary). It looks legit though I do appreciate you including all the relevant rules in one document. I recently had to forfeit two wins in a local league to keep the peace. It happens. Don’t get broken up about it.
Ah the unsubstantiated trolling accusation. Classy!
The ITC is not designed solely to win, if you think so ask the guys that designed it. It's a pre-designed starter packet where everyone can pull whatever they want from it. they share it as a tool for convenience in good faith. I have been to narrative events that have used it. If you think showing up to any run of the mill tournament where your a stranger with his list is somehow going to be welcomed and not piss some folks off then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. He wasn't in the wrong, I never said that btw, I was giving him advice from my own experience. I learned a long time ago that taking a list like that to a small friendly tournament especially if it's not my regular play group is not going to end well. Whether that is fair or not has no baring on my point, thats simply the reality. And if you show up to a tourny of any size and you don't get your list checked well in advance your bound to have trouble.
Sorry. Not in the market for a bridge. And my accusations not unfounded. I just read your post and felt like you were trying to get a rise by spouting opinion. Throwing around terms like “chedder, gunning for trouble, not a local etc....could be that your just being obtuse.
A tournament is a tournament. Bring a legal list. Play to win. Until ITC starts awarding a hobby and sportsmanship score (soft score, oh the horror) to promote playing anything less than the most competitive list possible, brin*vwhatever you like. It’s s tournament after all.
sennacherib wrote: Sorry. Not in the market for a bridge. And my accusations not unfounded. I just read your post and felt like you were trying to get a rise by spouting opinion. Throwing around terms like “chedder, gunning for trouble, not a local etc....
A tournament is a tournament. Bring a legal list. Play to win. Until ITC starts awarding a hobby and sportsmanship score (soft score, oh the horror) to promote playing anything less than the most competitive list possible, brin*vwhatever you like. It’s s tournament after all.
I was keeping it light hearted, because that's how myself and literally everyone I talk to refers to a list like that. Especially there own. Oh and of course it's my opinion mate, who elses did you think it was? Do you not know how an online forum works?
Btw, no idea I was capable of offending a person I wasn't even addressing
You fail to understand how the ITC works mate. It's a general structure. That the designers put out there for free. So other TO's can pull from it. The TO can literally add any qualifications they want for their own event. I mean it really isn't hard to follow, all the FLG events for example require a three color minimum and basing, Virules army wasn't even primed. So following your own logic he shouldn't have even been allowed to play let alone score any points. So if thats the case everything discussed was a totally moot point. Or maybe the TO decided at his own event he didn't want a painting requirement? I gona go with the latter.
Can we get back to Chaos tactics and take the tournament etiquette/ethics discussion elsewhere, please?
I just had a game at a friend's house with my planned tournament list for a couple of weeks from now. I'm running an Alpha Legion Battalion and Spearhead consisting of 3 units of Cultists (18, 10 and 10 models), 2 units of 9 Berzerkers in Rhinos, a foot Sorcerer, a Jump Sorcerer, a Jump Lord, 3 units of Slaanesh Obliterators. My third detachment is Mortarion. My opponent ran an Imperial Soup list with a White Scars Battalion consisting of a Libby, Captain (with Shield Eternal and Thunder Hammer), and Lieutenant, all with jump packs. He also had a 6-man Inceptor squad, a 10-man Reiver squad, 3 Scout Squads (2 with Sniper Rifles and heavy weapons), a Thunderfire Cannon, a Relic Sicaran tank, and a 6-man bike squad with no special weapons, which he combat squadded. He also had a Cadian AM Battalion with 3 Infantry Squads with mortars and 2 Company Commanders. His third detachment was an auxiliary with Celestine and her Geminae. He used the Chapter Approved points for everything, hence cheaper Inceptors and Reivers and the ability to use the deny psyker stratagem on Celestine. I ended up losing, mainly due to Morty dying on turn 2 to that "Only in Death" stratagem that my opponent used when the captain got smushed. Thunder hammers really put the hurt on big things when they are wielded by something like a Captain. It didn't help that I failed a ton of my Invul saves with Morty. Disgustingly Resilient can only do so much. I had also left my Jump Chaos Lord in a position to get scragged by the dropping Inceptors on turn 1. That didn't help. I also just plumb forgot the Endless Cacophony stratagem, which could have let me pop the Sicaran turn 1 (I had dropped it to 4 wounds). That Sicaran got a good shooting attack on Morty, doing 6 damage with a Lascannon, which I saved a couple of wounds with DR.
My takeaways:
Morty is good, but I should have played him a little smarter. He is a blender for small stuff and can do okay even against big things, but he does die if exposed to too many hard-hitting things. I'll need to get a few more games to get a feel for how to play him, as I've never run a model like that before.
Celestine is really annoying and powerful. She just ate a bunch of shooting from an Oblit squad, only taking a couple of wounds (although she did lose both Geminae in that attack). Her ability to just jump across the board on turn 1 is not to be underestimated. I had hoped to kill her with Morty, but he never got that far.
Watch out for getting a Rhino coffined. I lost a bunch of Berzerkers when they couldn't disembark out of their wrecked transport. I should have moved it differently. It's a cheap dirty tactic, but in a tournament it'll be no holds barred, so be ready for it.
Oblits are amazing when played right. I really didn't play them right this game and they still did some work.
The Tide of Traitors stratagem is just hilarious. I had my big Cultist squad down to 1 plucky survivor after morale, and I just resurrected the whole unit in my opponent's backfield. He knew it was going to happen, but it was still fun!
You need to be careful with transports period in this edition, early on when playing my bros tau he assaulted my rhino with drones and circled it trapping a melta havoc and berserker squad inside for the rest of the game. In my head I assumed the berserkers killed all the havocs in a a fit lol.
But yea it sounds like you need to tighten up your game before making any tweaks. Your characters should never be the closest thing to deepstrikers, especially with all those cultists and you need to remember those stratagems, chaos got some of the best ones in the game. That said, it's good to have a read through of other armies statagems so you can see things coming like that "only in death" one, the eldar also have some filthy ones that caught me. Your list definitely looks to be a good take all comers build though.
Arachnofiend wrote: The threat of encircling a rhino is just another argument for using the dreadclaw since it can just fly over encircling assault units.
Thats pretty costly though. lol. Rhinos are good still they just need to be played with smarter then previous editions. I really wish they had brought back a version of tank shock in CA, all they needed to add was that none flying vehicles can move through enemy units but cannot end ontop or within 1" and any unit they move through receives -1 to moral in the next moral phase. Done, nice and neat, fluffy and it prevents the idiocy of a battle tank getting pinned between a rock and a drone lol.
Hmm. A possible alternative is that you can move through enemy models whose S is two or three points lower than your own. If a Rhino could push aside some Drones, a Carnifex ought to manage it as well.
Red Corsair wrote: You need to be careful with transports period in this edition, early on when playing my bros tau he assaulted my rhino with drones and circled it trapping a melta havoc and berserker squad inside for the rest of the game. In my head I assumed the berserkers killed all the havocs in a a fit lol.
But yea it sounds like you need to tighten up your game before making any tweaks. Your characters should never be the closest thing to deepstrikers, especially with all those cultists and you need to remember those stratagems, chaos got some of the best ones in the game. That said, it's good to have a read through of other armies statagems so you can see things coming like that "only in death" one, the eldar also have some filthy ones that caught me. Your list definitely looks to be a good take all comers build though.
I obviously don't know how many drones he had, but it isn't trivial matter to just surround rhino successfully with drones unless you have just HUGE amount of them. Because of the wording in disembarking, every model in unit must disembark within 3", not wholly within while not being allowed to setup within 1" of any enemy models. Also as the disembarking is just calculated from any part of the model it allows much to play around with and I strongly suggest everyone putting all the available bits in their traitor rhinos and also using the frontal blades to maximise model size to avoid being surrounded so easily. I actually went to do some testing, and assuming drones have perfect maximum spread (and standard marine base size, I have no idea!) you will need atleast 8 of them to provide good block around a rhino without frontal spikes/blades. Anything less than seven will allow marine player to disembark 3 or even 4 marines. Minimum 8 will allow disembarking of 2 marines. Disembarked 2 khorne berserkers should have no problem with dispatching 8 drones.
Also because of how rules are worded you are allowed to opt for sacrificing part of your unit in order to get out - being able to get even 1-2 berserkers out from the rhino could possibly save the situation. I know this is not optimal, but if the other option is them being sitting inside rest of the match, we all know which choice is better!
Nah, it's not as hard as you might think. Remember you don't need to get into b2b anymore just to barely within 1" with one model so if they are maxed at 2" apart and only one is just within an inch of your hull your screwed because flight stands at 32mm and modern marines are as well so.... BTW thats not factoring terrain, in that game I drove my rhino up behind a building on one side to prevent a ghost keel on the flank from getting shots so he was able to do it with 6 if I remember. BTW my brother owns about 40ish gun drones and regularly fields a lot of them because why on earth would any tau player not use them since they are miles better then most infantry for their price lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I am not sure about the sacrificing models thing. I know you can when emergency disembarking but I am not sure your allowed to willingly sac models. You may be right howexer I don't have my book on me.
Well thats good to know, I didn't think to look that up at the time, I guess it isn't instinctive to just forfeit half your guys lol but yea it would have been better then sitting their the last two turns.
On another note, I am looking into fleshing out my emperors children and have been pleased by how many different viable options there are for them. Right now I am building 10 warp talons, they seem to synergize with a jump sorcerer and a herald on a steed. Drop them in, warp time in close, prescience and multi assault. Having death to the false emperor explode on a 4+ with icon of excess and having strength 5 with the herald in range means they can be vicious. So many possibilities just with that unit in regards to stratagems. Verse hordes use excess of violence and/or veterans of the long war seems like these guys will punch insanely hard. I wanted to figure out a way to get the masque or some fiends into the same melee in order to prevent them falling back but thats the harder part for me to visualize. May have to settle for the unit dying after the drop.
Is the defiler at all worth taking now that it's gone down again? I keep trying to convince myself it's good because I like the model but it still just seems so inefficient... That hybrid tax hurts.
Red Corsair wrote: Well thats good to know, I didn't think to look that up at the time, I guess it isn't instinctive to just forfeit half your guys lol but yea it would have been better then sitting their the last two turns.
On another note, I am looking into fleshing out my emperors children and have been pleased by how many different viable options there are for them. Right now I am building 10 warp talons, they seem to synergize with a jump sorcerer and a herald on a steed. Drop them in, warp time in close, prescience and multi assault. Having death to the false emperor explode on a 4+ with icon of excess and having strength 5 with the herald in range means they can be vicious. So many possibilities just with that unit in regards to stratagems. Verse hordes use excess of violence and/or veterans of the long war seems like these guys will punch insanely hard. I wanted to figure out a way to get the masque or some fiends into the same melee in order to prevent them falling back but thats the harder part for me to visualize. May have to settle for the unit dying after the drop.
Yup, your right, it's still a solid combo though. It takes some things working in concert but honestly I think it will be worth a go. I mean it only takes 2 cps to get a ludicrous number of kills and it shouldn't be hard to get that herald into range on a steed. Essentials I am looking at a chaos lord with JP, sorcerer with JP, a steed herald and 10 warp talons. All together it adds up to 570 with all 3 characters and the WT. But the three characters would be in my list anyway and support other units so it isn't as if they are a tax on the WT alone.
Quick math on that combo if the unit has all the buffs, Prescience + herald and lord aura and burning a CP on excess of violence and VotLW vs space marines yields ~34 dead space marines which is insane. Granted thats a wet dream situation where I can get every WT into combat range against multiple marines but more likely they will delete whatever infantry they hit while they will put minor damage on each vehicle they hit to tie their lines down. If they hit guardsmen they kill 60.... Which is mind boggling. It's less vs none imperium obviously but I am thinking at this point that due to their realistic threat range you can rely on that unit to kill what ever you chose and tie down some other things hopefully.
I'll be honest, it took me seeing a bat rep with sanguinary guard mauling things to decide Warp Talons could do it as well if not better. I think slaanesh is definitely the way to go but I could see some potential for khorne and using the fight again strat, it would cost you double the CP's however and you would need to break from canon quite a bit in order to justify the psychic buffs. I like to make strong lists but I also like to keep them themed and as narrative as I can.
Mutilators are looking mighty tasty at 41 PPM. That's a pretty big drop in points. I was already using them with Zhufor (who also saw a 20 point reduction) as a fun / fluffy little distraction squad, and now they actually seem fully worth their points. Zhufor just became even better now that he clearly outshines a basic Khorne Chaos Lord Terminator (except for the rerolling 1's for Skulltakers specifically nonsense). 243 points (down from 300) for a hard melee unit in my enemy's backfield or contesting an objective? Yeah, I'll take that.
My Contemptor duel wielding Chainclaws also saw a drop in points just for duel wielding, which puts a smile on my face.
Bikes dropped by 6 points (bare bones: 3 Bikes are now 10 points more than 5 basic Chaos Marines). They're still meh in combat (or at least meh compared to Zerkers, Mutilators, and other CC dedicated units), but their ability to get flamers right in your opponent's face turn 1 or zip around a flank and blast away at backfield units is pretty great.
But leave it to GW to wipe that smile and all those reduced points out by blowing up my Flying Land Raider by 75 points. I knew it was coming and I still cried. Still going to use it because it's awesome.
The reductions across the board and continuous drop in points for close combat units / weapons makes me excited to see Khorne Deamons in January. Hopefully we will see a continued trend to make dedicated CC units cheap / spamable. I want to dust off my Khorne Dogs and Khorny Bois.
Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...
andysonic1 wrote: Mutilators are looking mighty tasty at 41 PPM. That's a pretty big drop in points.
I really want Mutilators to be good but I'm not sure they will ever be. I think they need to have their datasheet changed because their damage is both low and unreliable right now. Their 4" move means if they fail their charge out of deepstrike they might not doing anything for the whole game.
saint_red wrote: Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...
That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.
Has anyone considered bringing black legion bikes in outrider detachments? For 103 points you can throw out 16 bolter shots and 4 plasma shots a unit, at 12 inches. Use lords for rerolls and youve got a highly mobile fire base that can pick off hordes one blob at a time
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mark them slaanesh and one of them is tossing out 32 bolter shots and 8 plasma shots.
macluvin wrote: Has anyone considered bringing black legion bikes in outrider detachments? For 103 points you can throw out 16 bolter shots and 4 plasma shots a unit, at 12 inches. Use lords for rerolls and youve got a highly mobile fire base that can pick off hordes one blob at a time
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mark them slaanesh and one of them is tossing out 32 bolter shots and 8 plasma shots.
saint_red wrote: Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...
That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.
The Warpsmith barely heals anything. I wouldn't exactly call it a great benefit.
saint_red wrote: Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...
That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.
The Warpsmith barely heals anything. I wouldn't exactly call it a great benefit.
Agreed. A better benefit would be taking a cheap Herald of nurgle (or summoning one in for cheap from a sit back chr) and using fleshy abundance on the forgefiend, assuming it also has mark of nurgle. That heals 2-4 wounds a turn with the auto heal taken into consideration. Heck have a warp smith be the summoner for the field, now you have a healing machine.
saint_red wrote: Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...
That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.
The Warpsmith barely heals anything. I wouldn't exactly call it a great benefit.
True. I was disappointed in how little a Warpsmith does, actually. A meaty Stratagem would have been nice, after all Techmarines get one (if they’re manning a Thunderfire Cannon). Or perhaps a rebate on Daemonforge, Fire Frenzy, & Blasphemous Machines within a certain range. Ah, enough wishlisting
Fiend also gets 5++. Two close melta wounds and a random MW kills a Contemptor. FF takes almost twice as much AP-4 to bring down. I say all this as a big fan of Contemptors, by the way - can’t argue with a Butcher Cannon, Soulburner, and Chainfist, stuff your corpse-botherer Assault Cannon Razorbacks
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.
saint_red wrote: Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.
Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.
Point wise I think that the double Butcher Decimator is better, it's 30 points less, he's got less wound but it 'will not degrade.
Regeneration and 5++ included, not to mention the awsome model that Decimator is
I love the Leviathan model so will get one at some stage. I really want the CSM daemon engines to be more prominent but for now it looks like the Deci is our best option there. Maybe next year's Chapter Approved..
Otherwise, is anybody using Plague Marines in their normal CSM list? I was thinking of getting myself a 10 man squad with double blight launchers and 3-4 axes to footslog about and make a nuisance of themselves with. Part of the reason is I want more cult marines in my Word Bearers force but I do think they'd be a pretty solid addition.
Given that they use renegades tactics (advance and charge), and that their special dude (lord arkos) has an aura that adds +1 to both running and charging, it seems to me a foot+bike slugging horde of them isn't all that bad.
Given that they use renegades tactics (advance and charge), and that their special dude (lord arkos) has an aura that adds +1 to both running and charging, it seems to me a foot+bike slugging horde of them isn't all that bad.
Warptime a huge horde up.. double advance. Arkos can infiltrate close. Could cover a lot of ground. Buff the horde with other stuff. .
saint_red wrote: Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...
That, and regeneration, and being allowed to heal off a Warpsmith, and Epidemius synergy.
The Warpsmith barely heals anything. I wouldn't exactly call it a great benefit.
He averages 2 wounds healed which coupled with infernal regeneration bumps up to 3. I'd hardly consider healing 25% of it's starting wounds a turn with no penalty barely anything. It also doesn't hurt that warpsmiths are awesome buys for their points. You get 4w 2+ save on a character who also has a melta, flamer and ideally a combi melta AND his power axe and dendrites which is 95 pts. By comparison an infantry unit with melta combi melta power axe is 96... Characters are awesome this edition for nabing objectives out in the open since they can't be targeted if you position them correctly.
saint_red wrote: Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.
Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.
I didnt think the Alpha Legion -1 trait would apply to the Leviathans, because it only applied to Infantry, Bikes, Hellbrutes, and Daemon Princes
saint_red wrote: Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.
Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.
I didnt think the Alpha Legion -1 trait would apply to the Leviathans, because it only applied to Infantry, Bikes, Hellbrutes, and Daemon Princes
Many FW walkers got the HELLBRUTE keyword, and it can be a little tricky to tell if it is unit, or keyword when HELLBRUTE is mentioned. I had an opponent who used the double firing stratagem on his levi pretty often until was shown a response from GW saying it's the HELLBRUTE model.
So herres a question for you all. How to arm a word bearers terminator Lord?
Part of me does like the simplicity of combi plasma power fist (no mark)
Rest of the list im toying around with in my head is as follows
HQ Chaos Lord in terminator armour
Dark Apostle Plasma Pistol Cursed Crozius
Exalted Champ Power Axe and Com I melta
Troops
10csm 2 plasmas combi plans Rhino
10 csm 2 meltaguns power fist combi melta on the champ 7 guys with bp chain sword icon of chaos Glory rhino
30 close combat cultists 2 flamers
Heavy support
Tri las pres
3 oblits slaanesh
Vanguard detachment
Sorceror with Force Axe
8 Possessed Khorne Icon of Wrath Rhino
5Chosen 4 Plasma Guns Combi plas on the champ rhino
Hell Brute with Twin Lascannon and Fist
Not got my codex on hand or chapter approved yet but Lord will be jumping in with the oblits sorceror will stick with the cultists and run up the board. Tri las pred sits at the back dark apostle and champ join the possessed in their rhino.
saint_red wrote: Here's a fun little fact: Contemptors with double Butcher cannons are better than Forgefiends in almost every single way. They have the same amount of shots with the same weapon profiles (S8 AP-1 D2) but the Contemptor hits on 2s vs the Forgefiend's 4s. And the Contemptor is 14 points cheaper! The only thing the Forgefiend has in it's favour is 2 wounds extra...
andysonic1 wrote: Mutilators are looking mighty tasty at 41 PPM. That's a pretty big drop in points.
I really want Mutilators to be good but I'm not sure they will ever be. I think they need to have their datasheet changed because their damage is both low and unreliable right now. Their 4" move means if they fail their charge out of deepstrike they might not doing anything for the whole game.
Yeah I'd rather just run Warp Talons or Raptors.
That said, there's something to be said about the super minimal investment of 123 points. It isn't the cheapest Elite for a Brigade but the option is there.
With mark of nurgle you could also use fleshy abundance on them in a pinch. Not sure what other mark is worth it on them. Maybe they are worth it in a world eater detachment? Also remember to use a herald in conjunction to get there strength to a minimum of 7. Still not sure about these guys though, chaos is spoiled for choice with regard to elite assaulting units and most of them either hit harder or more often leaving these guys lost in the middle.
saint_red wrote: Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ in melee, but yes the 1 wound per turn is a thing. Epidemius or Changeling synergy does exist but that bloody 4+ WS renders it worse than a Contemptor in every scenario in my eyes. Even with Daemonforge it is marginally better damage but it drains 1CP/turn. I feel like Forgefiends should be more scary to better meet their fluff and model power.
Forge/maulerfiend suck this edition. Replacing them with Leviathans. Idea I'm running with is that it's super hard to kill T8, 2+save, -1 hit alpha legion, bubblewrapped with regenerating cultists and it has some crazy firepower with 2 butcher cannons (16 shots per turn). I think running two or even three is pretty strong against most things.
I didnt think the Alpha Legion -1 trait would apply to the Leviathans, because it only applied to Infantry, Bikes, Hellbrutes, and Daemon Princes
Many FW walkers got the HELLBRUTE keyword, and it can be a little tricky to tell if it is unit, or keyword when HELLBRUTE is mentioned. I had an opponent who used the double firing stratagem on his levi pretty often until was shown a response from GW saying it's the HELLBRUTE model.
Levi's,contemptors, etc.... Can use legion tactics as the rule uses the bold HELLBRUTE word as opposed to the non bold daemon prince word. Keywords are always represented in bold lettering
So, I've been revisiting the idea of a Brigade detachment of Chaos Marines. It's very doable at 2000 points given the fact that we can fill our Troops and Fast Attack slots very cheaply, leaving room to take strong HQs, Elites, and Heavy Support. I'm thinking that it may not be top-tier competitive, but it'll be fun for casual games and/or smaller less competitive tournament environments. Here's a list I threw together in Battlescribe:
Spoiler:
Chaos Marines Brigade (Iron Warriors)
HQ:
Daemon Prince with Wings: 2x Malefic Talon, Daemon of Slaanesh, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton
Dark Apostle: Mark of Khorne
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Force Stave, Mark of Slaanesh
Troops:
17 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, 1x Heavy Stubber, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Space Marines: 7x Chainsword/Pistol, 2x Meltagun, Power Maul, Mark of Khorne
5 Chaos Space Marines: Lascannon, Mark of Slaanesh
Elites:
6 Noise Marines: 5x Sonic Blaster, 1x Blastmaster
7 Khorne Berzerkers: Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath
Helbrute: Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Fast Attack:
4 Chaos Bikers: 2x Meltagun, Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh
1 Chaos Spawn
1 Chaos Spawn
Heavy Support:
5 Havocs: 4x Autocannon
5 Havocs: 4x Autocannon
Maulerfiend: Lasher Tendrils
Dedicated Transport:
2x Chaos Rhino
Total 1997 points, 12 CP
I know this is not a competitive or optimized list, but I'm sure it's not a pushover either and will be fun to try out in a non-tournament setting. I'm probably going to end up matching it up against my friend's Genestealer Cult at some point. I could easily switch which Legion Trait the list has without changing it at all, other than swapping out the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton for the Elixir on the DP. If I ran it as Word Bearers, I could give the DP the Voice of Lorgar warlord trait, which could be pretty good. I'm also considering cutting some points here and there and running this list as Black Legion with Abaddon replacing the Dark Apostle. The trick there will be coming up with the rest of the points, but I'm sure I could figure it out. I'm sure that if optimized a Brigade could be very nasty, with all of those CP giving access to a lot of good stratagems.
The list I just posted is not optimized, as I said. Hence why it seems lackluster and unfocused. I would swap out certain units for better ones in an optimized list, starting with putting in more Cultists in place of the CSM squads. I might tweak it around a bit and post a meaner version later.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.
My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.
It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.
My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.
It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.
IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused
No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.
Yeah, I love Brigades but we're not Tyranids, I wouldn't bother trying to make one at less than 150PL/3K, and even that's if I leave the Spartan and planes in the hangars. At 200PL/4K I'll give it a go.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.
My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.
It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.
IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused
No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.
However, the list doesn't HAVE a game plan.
There is nothing randomly thrown in there. He filled out the required slots for a battalion and chose strong units each built with a purpose.
Spam IS a type of focus or I should say a way to achieve focus. Theres spamming units for a specific roll which is redundancy or macro focus. Then you can also focus solely on a task, like shooting or assault. Then there is micro focus which is making a unit loadout toward a specific purpose. This is what I am referring to. None of his units are loaded in a way to suggest they lack focus. For example a unit of havocs with a sergeant equipped with a power fist and half the unit carrying las canons and the other half with flamers, thats a unit lacking focus. An amry doesn't have to be all in on assault or all in on shooting to be good.
Lists don't have game plans, players do. I just punked every opponent at a tournament with a guard list that had seemingly random units on my list. My opponents laughed and didn't take my army as seriously as the other guard armies that just spammed cheapo infantry and basilisks. I had combat commanders and all my relics were weapons, they were shocked when I rook rolled through their lines. I had a specific strategy and idea on how to handle everything I faced. My army had strong shooting and strong assault coming from nearly ZERO spamed units aside from infantry squads fulfilling my troops.
His list has screeners, which I'd say is about the only real requirement of every list in 8th. Beyond that there are several ways to skin a cat. His list can definitely be made more lethal, for example the autocanons are not great and I'd rather take 3 lascanons then 4 auto canons, small things like that, but none of his unit choices are bad even mixed together. You also need to put his list into the context that it isn't meant to bash teeth in and table someone turn 1. So in that regard the only real nit pick, which is efficiency of loadouts, is made less omportant because of that.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to suggest, but your not explaining yourself here, your being vague. I am interested in what you think specifically makes his list unfocused*.
I was messing around with some numbers on a 2k Iron warriors brigade.
Chaos Lord (Fearless Warlord Trait)
Chaos Lord
Exalted Champion
9 Berzekers (Icon Of Wrath)
Rhino
10 Berzekers (Icon Of Wrath)
Rhino
10 Berzekers (Icon Of Wrath)
Rhino
10 Cultists x 6
3 Chaos Bikers (Combi Bolter, MOS) x3
9 Havocs (4 Plasma Guns, MOS)
Rhino
10 Havocs (4 Plasma Guns, MOS)
Rhino
5 Havocs (4 Heavy Bolters, MOS)
One lord to keep cultists around a bit longer, one to lord to buff plasma and exalted champion to buff berzerkers.
No sorcerers or big blob of cultists is a bummer. Plasma guns and berzerkers with vets of the long war, endless cacophony / fury of khorne would have to deal with tanks/monsters. Not sure how feasible that is!
I feel like you should find a way to make one of those cultist units a big 40 man blob. You're not getting much out of the IW warlord trait with 10 man units and Tide of Traitors can be a huge boon.
I actually think Autocannons are a hidden gem, especially now that they are only 15 points. They have a different target priority than Lascannons for the most part. Lascannons want to engage big things like vehicles and monsters, whereas Autocannons want to shoot at 2-wound models, especially things like Terminators and Bikes. I think they could absolutely wreck a Primaris-heavy army since they negate their primary defensive advantage over normal Marines (2 wounds). Sure, Termies still get a good save, but every failed one is a dead guy.
I mainly included the Autocannons in my list because they are cheap and I actually have the models. I don't have enough Chaos Lascannon guys to run a full Havoc unit with them. The one I have is in a regular CSM squad, which I know are bad, but...eh.
The list I posted is proof of concept, and I do intend to come up with a more optimized version later. I'll post it in this thread when I do. One thing I am curious about, is which Legion makes the best brigade? My gut says Alpha Legion as they have the best stratagem and legion trait, but Iron Warriors can get fearless units easily thanks to their unique warlord trait, and Word Bearers' Voice of Lorgar trait is pretty solid in a list with lots of units spread around (they can all benefit from rerolling 1's).
I guess alpha legion as they get the complete package of having a great warlord trait, strategem and legion trait!
A single spawn instead of 3 CSM bikes saves you allot of points in the fast attack slots, but the bikes seem so much better to me. 3 bikes with a Combi Bolter is only 77pts now and puts out 16 bolter shots at rapid fire range and are really good at claiming objectives. I don’t really know about spawn.
Spawn won't push anything off an objective, but they'll hold up anything there long enough for your other units to get there. Bolters also aren't that great at the moment, you'd want to give your bikes special weapons to make them worth it. Remember that you can move 20 inches and then fire flamers with them.
Honestly, very few armies can pull off a brigade at 2000 points without resorting to slot filler units which means your basically sacrificing the strength of units in order to get CP's. generally I would say it just isn't worth it, better off building a strong list with 80% of your points then seeing which formations it fits in best and filling in the rest. So far nearly everyone I have played that tries to focus their list on gaining CP's has regretted it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.
My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.
It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.
IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused
No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.
However, the list doesn't HAVE a game plan.
There is nothing randomly thrown in there. He filled out the required slots for a battalion and chose strong units each built with a purpose.
Spam IS a type of focus or I should say a way to achieve focus. Theres spamming units for a specific roll which is redundancy or macro focus. Then you can also focus solely on a task, like shooting or assault. Then there is micro focus which is making a unit loadout toward a specific purpose. This is what I am referring to. None of his units are loaded in a way to suggest they lack focus. For example a unit of havocs with a sergeant equipped with a power fist and half the unit carrying las canons and the other half with flamers, thats a unit lacking focus. An amry doesn't have to be all in on assault or all in on shooting to be good.
Lists don't have game plans, players do. I just punked every opponent at a tournament with a guard list that had seemingly random units on my list. My opponents laughed and didn't take my army as seriously as the other guard armies that just spammed cheapo infantry and basilisks. I had combat commanders and all my relics were weapons, they were shocked when I rook rolled through their lines. I had a specific strategy and idea on how to handle everything I faced. My army had strong shooting and strong assault coming from nearly ZERO spamed units aside from infantry squads fulfilling my troops.
His list has screeners, which I'd say is about the only real requirement of every list in 8th. Beyond that there are several ways to skin a cat. His list can definitely be made more lethal, for example the autocanons are not great and I'd rather take 3 lascanons then 4 auto canons, small things like that, but none of his unit choices are bad even mixed together. You also need to put his list into the context that it isn't meant to bash teeth in and table someone turn 1. So in that regard the only real nit pick, which is efficiency of loadouts, is made less omportant because of that.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to suggest, but your not explaining yourself here, your being vague. I am interested in what you think specifically makes his list unfocused*.
*optimal choices, spam, best loadout? etc etc...
It's actually a combination of everything. Let's take a look.
1. The first part you'll notice is that he took Iron Warriors as his Legion. That means he would either want to focus on the shooty aspect they got and use MoS appropriately, and/or make use of large screens of Infantry using their Warlord Trait and make NOTHING run away.
2. So we then have small amounts of Cultists ready to do that. However, there are 7 Troops being ran, rather than JUST getting the tax out of the way.
The Chaos Marines with the MoK are just bad Berserker Marines. So we then have the lone Marine squad rocking a Lascannon to go with said Cultists.
3. With those Cultists, they're not screening a lot of important stuff. More importantly, which HQ is gonna make them be brave? The Sorcerer is to deep Strike and use powers when advantageous, the Apostle is clearly going with either melee squad of either Berserker Marines or Regular Marines, and the Prince is too expensive to just sit and camp. So who's gonna do it?
4. There's not enough saturation of melee threats. Nobody is scared of melee Marines, so you only have to worry about the Berserker Marines, the Prince, and the Maulerfiend. This is easy to defend against. Like, super easy.
5. THEN there's not a lot of shooting. 3 Lascannons, an ML, and 8 Autocannons with the Noise Marines shooting isn't a whole lot to make use of the Chapter Tactic, not to mention there's no horde shooting outside those Noise Marines.
6. Then we only have two Rhinos for the three squads that want to go anywhere: the MoK Marines, the Berserker Marines, and the Noise Marines.
The list doesn't HAVE focus, it wasn't built WITH focus, and there won't BE focus against even a mediocre list from any index or codex. I could probably make a Necron list that cam beat it, and that says a lot.
Brigade MSU might be viable in a strictly objectives game (and I’m not certain about that - seems like you’ll struggle to screen your firebase, AND fill no man’s land with bodies, AND mount an effective invasion), but in purge and Maelstrom you’ve presented a lot of fairly easy kills that aren’t especially efficient glass cannons. Chaos isn’t AM, we don’t get to airdrop a bucket of disposable melta. Far better to take two battalions, one of them Nurgle Daemons, a spearhead of Oblits and havocs, and either a vanguard or outriders. Or even a flyer wing.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I posted an Alpha Legion brigade in here before but got no responses.
My primary issue with yours is that it doesn't have a real...focus to it.
It has plenty of focus, a list doesn't need to spam the same 1 or 2 ideas or principles ad nauseum in order to be good. I have found in 8th that having a variety of units throws my opponents off way more. If I spam oblits or berserkers or X unit then they know exactly how to deal with my army as soon as they figure out how to tackle one of those units. Not saying spam is bad, it's just easy mode as a player. Instead of having to make all my units work and not worrying about losing one you just learn to use a different tool. It's way more entertaining for both parties as well unless your only idea of fun is getting a win. Not bashing that btw just making the point that for some players the destination is all they care about while for others its the hourny and yet for others it is both. I am in the both category, used to spam non stop in 5th and 6th then realized I got bored of my armies incredibly fast.
IOW: Throwing random stuff in a list is totally focused
No it isn't. Spam doesn't always equate focus. What you're thinking about is redundancy, which is handy but not always necessary.
However, the list doesn't HAVE a game plan.
There is nothing randomly thrown in there. He filled out the required slots for a battalion and chose strong units each built with a purpose.
Spam IS a type of focus or I should say a way to achieve focus. Theres spamming units for a specific roll which is redundancy or macro focus. Then you can also focus solely on a task, like shooting or assault. Then there is micro focus which is making a unit loadout toward a specific purpose. This is what I am referring to. None of his units are loaded in a way to suggest they lack focus. For example a unit of havocs with a sergeant equipped with a power fist and half the unit carrying las canons and the other half with flamers, thats a unit lacking focus. An amry doesn't have to be all in on assault or all in on shooting to be good.
Lists don't have game plans, players do. I just punked every opponent at a tournament with a guard list that had seemingly random units on my list. My opponents laughed and didn't take my army as seriously as the other guard armies that just spammed cheapo infantry and basilisks. I had combat commanders and all my relics were weapons, they were shocked when I rook rolled through their lines. I had a specific strategy and idea on how to handle everything I faced. My army had strong shooting and strong assault coming from nearly ZERO spamed units aside from infantry squads fulfilling my troops.
His list has screeners, which I'd say is about the only real requirement of every list in 8th. Beyond that there are several ways to skin a cat. His list can definitely be made more lethal, for example the autocanons are not great and I'd rather take 3 lascanons then 4 auto canons, small things like that, but none of his unit choices are bad even mixed together. You also need to put his list into the context that it isn't meant to bash teeth in and table someone turn 1. So in that regard the only real nit pick, which is efficiency of loadouts, is made less omportant because of that.
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to suggest, but your not explaining yourself here, your being vague. I am interested in what you think specifically makes his list unfocused*.
*optimal choices, spam, best loadout? etc etc...
It's actually a combination of everything. Let's take a look.
1. The first part you'll notice is that he took Iron Warriors as his Legion. That means he would either want to focus on the shooty aspect they got and use MoS appropriately, and/or make use of large screens of Infantry using their Warlord Trait and make NOTHING run away.
2. So we then have small amounts of Cultists ready to do that. However, there are 7 Troops being ran, rather than JUST getting the tax out of the way.
The Chaos Marines with the MoK are just bad Berserker Marines. So we then have the lone Marine squad rocking a Lascannon to go with said Cultists.
3. With those Cultists, they're not screening a lot of important stuff. More importantly, which HQ is gonna make them be brave? The Sorcerer is to deep Strike and use powers when advantageous, the Apostle is clearly going with either melee squad of either Berserker Marines or Regular Marines, and the Prince is too expensive to just sit and camp. So who's gonna do it?
4. There's not enough saturation of melee threats. Nobody is scared of melee Marines, so you only have to worry about the Berserker Marines, the Prince, and the Maulerfiend. This is easy to defend against. Like, super easy.
5. THEN there's not a lot of shooting. 3 Lascannons, an ML, and 8 Autocannons with the Noise Marines shooting isn't a whole lot to make use of the Chapter Tactic, not to mention there's no horde shooting outside those Noise Marines.
6. Then we only have two Rhinos for the three squads that want to go anywhere: the MoK Marines, the Berserker Marines, and the Noise Marines.
The list doesn't HAVE focus, it wasn't built WITH focus, and there won't BE focus against even a mediocre list from any index or codex. I could probably make a Necron list that cam beat it, and that says a lot.
OK thanks, a lot of that is fair and I am in agreement on. Like I thought, I was misunderstanding your meaning of focus I guess.
1. To me the legion trait isn't something I like to tell people to change, because I assume they play like myself and don't tell people that my IW are Alpha legion etc etc. Thats not a judgement, just a recognition that some folks want to play their legion, and that they obviously want to take that legion when I see certain builds.
2. He only has 6 troops, unless I missed something. 5 cultist units and a min marine squad. He can always use the DA in concert with the cultists and the larger 17 man unit can easily be recycled up the table later. I can see why you might dislike the marine unit, but really they are not that bad, its a las canon in his backfield. he would be better off adding 3 more cultists top the 17 man unit, splitting it then dropping the 5 man marine unit and adding bodies to the havocs or the elite marines. But ultimately that isn't much of a focus issue and more of an efiiciency issue. I can play a focused army and have no cultists.
3. This is probably my super weird play style comming up. When I see his list I see my opponent bitching as he cannot place any models in my deployment and if I get first turn he would need to drop them into HIS deployment. You only need a daisy chain to screen but his army has enough to block out his whole zone and rush out turn one with a pair of units, the rhinos and the spawn and eat the rest of the table space. I usually win 40k in the movement phase, I kill stuff, but I have won games where I don't kill a lot and just eat the board and block my opponent. I see no need to DS the sorceror btw, I mean he can if he doesn't have a plan immediately for him so he can drop him wherever in his lines, but this kind of list isn't about getting stuck in turn 1. He's better off advancing out, taking real estate, etablishing new screens further up with his rhinos or spawn and terrain. Then waiting and counter assaulting. If he goes all in on one threat first turn then yea he is giving away a unit. No point in using 2-3 units to get stuck in and then lose all of it. Oh and it's interesting you thought the apostle was clearly going up with the berserkers because I thought he was clearly for the back line and cultists, You answered it yourself, the demon prince is clearly going forward so why waste two aura buffs up front. Make the Apostle the warlord and suddenly the DP is expendable as well. I hate DP warlords personally, if you use them the right way they usually die, this is true for all vanguard HQs really.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee though, if he parks a rhino with qa team of berserkers mid field (behind terrain ideally) then they create a giant no go zone. Same goes for the DP, the mauler fiend is harder to hide, but in my experience players waste way too many shots trying to kill mine. Basically add him to that front line road block and expect him to die, but hopefully he buys you another turn of board control at the middle.
5. This I agree with, but thats why I am looking at his list the way I am. His army isn't killing much, so he is gonna win on board control and being annoying with his expendable units like rhinos and spawn and that fiend. He has enough shooting to hang in there though, but target priority is going to be very important. In regard to horde, again he doesn't need to kill all of that horde (whatever it is) just take as much of the table as he can first turn. I mean, if the DP, zerkers, fiend and both spawn hit the same area they will drive it back pretty far, I know those things aren't guaranteed to all make it obviously, but again remember how easy it is to block units in 8th. Hordes generally don't fly or hit very hard.
6. The rhinos are a weak spot, it's better to lose a pair of zerkers for more noise marines so all three can fit into the two or to drop the marines in the first place.
I'll add that in general I think brigades are a bad idea at 2k. Why force the issue? CP's are only good when they boost your list, if your list is taking a hit for more CP's then they aren't really doing you any favors. At that point you need to use them in order to make your units decent. Just take the other formations.
Thanks for your input again, that gives me a much better perspective on your thought process. I fully acknowledge I take strange lists and win in strange ways sometimes. So it it easier to hash things out when we can both figure out how the other is looking the puzzle.
1. I won't ask someone to change their Legion Trait. HOWEVER, if you won't build around it, I'll point it out.
2. There's 7. There's 4 minimum Cultists, the strange one at 17, a minimum Marine Lascannon, and then the MoK Marines.
With a Brigade, troops are mostly a tax. With Marines, any troop not a Cultist is really a tax.
3. The Cultists aren't in large enough numbers to deny that space without deployment shenanigans, so with Iron Warriors the best way to do it is to use them as your wall, so to speak. With this list, once a couple of squads are killed, Deep Strikes will have their way.
That's another point with the Sorcerer. Either you're going to make use of the Jump Pack or not. You can't purchase upgrades you MIGHT use. You purchase upgrades you WILL use. Either you're running the Sorcerer up or Deep Strike, or you can just lose the Jump Pack and save some points.
The Apostle is also too expensive to do just have sitting back. A Lord with the correct Warlord Trait will do that for exponentially cheaper and let the shooting units do better work if nearby. The Dark Apostle doesn't offer anything in that scenario.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee, but lone melee threats are bad if not used in saturation. There's not a lot, therefore you kill the them in order based on danger factor. That Daemon Prince won't live T1 because of it, as you're correct that the Maulerfiend takes a decent amount of firepower to kill. That means that it's ignored typically.
5. Elaborate on "enough shooting". I listed the dangerous shooting. That's not enough focus.
6. Berserker Marines are fine in Rhinos if you have enough of them. Just one squad ensures the opponent will kill the Rhino and then they gotta run all the way.
Is Macharius Vulcan worth its points at all? I am using it to run a super heavy detachment and it is the only model I do not currently own in my planned list. Coming in around 150+ USD after shipping, taxes etc. from forgeworld I want to get a sense if it is worthwhile at all.
30 shots sounds exciting but hitting on a 4+ and as it is a R+H unit essentially 0 possibility for rerolls makes this effectively 15 shots from the vulcan (assuming it doesn't move) and the stubbers/heavy bolters add effectively maybe 5 extra hits. So about 20 hits for a 360+ point unit to me is worrisome.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. I won't ask someone to change their Legion Trait. HOWEVER, if you won't build around it, I'll point it out.
2. There's 7. There's 4 minimum Cultists, the strange one at 17, a minimum Marine Lascannon, and then the MoK Marines.
With a Brigade, troops are mostly a tax. With Marines, any troop not a Cultist is really a tax.
3. The Cultists aren't in large enough numbers to deny that space without deployment shenanigans, so with Iron Warriors the best way to do it is to use them as your wall, so to speak. With this list, once a couple of squads are killed, Deep Strikes will have their way.
That's another point with the Sorcerer. Either you're going to make use of the Jump Pack or not. You can't purchase upgrades you MIGHT use. You purchase upgrades you WILL use. Either you're running the Sorcerer up or Deep Strike, or you can just lose the Jump Pack and save some points.
The Apostle is also too expensive to do just have sitting back. A Lord with the correct Warlord Trait will do that for exponentially cheaper and let the shooting units do better work if nearby. The Dark Apostle doesn't offer anything in that scenario.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee, but lone melee threats are bad if not used in saturation. There's not a lot, therefore you kill the them in order based on danger factor. That Daemon Prince won't live T1 because of it, as you're correct that the Maulerfiend takes a decent amount of firepower to kill. That means that it's ignored typically.
5. Elaborate on "enough shooting". I listed the dangerous shooting. That's not enough focus.
6. Berserker Marines are fine in Rhinos if you have enough of them. Just one squad ensures the opponent will kill the Rhino and then they gotta run all the way.
1. I get that, thats fair but most of the traits are worth building around anyway. That doesn't mean they can't be, besides his havocs and brute are where most of his fire support is coming from anyway and they still benefit.
2. Hmm I missed the MoK squad so thats a fair assessment. I still think marines are useful, but so far as to take redundant slots.
3. Sure they are, My guard list runs 4 infantry squads, 3 command squads and a bullgryn unit. I just played a game a few nights ago where I successfully denied 6 deepstriking units from ~65% of the table including my backfield after my turn 1 advances. If you make a chevron shape with two units starting 9" away from your deployment corners and coming together at the midpoint atop of your zone and then use the other units as a picket line across the top you can block your zone and 9" away from your zone, and with first turn advances easily push that zone out beyond half field. As I said I have done it with less infantry, his fire base will fill the middle of his deployment. I mean the two spawn alone will eat a 20" circle when you factor their base. Thats massive. If the enemy is shooting cultists and single spawn to make a gap, which BTW is very hard to do considering a single 25mm model needs a 19.5" diameter circle to land, now add a squad, then I would count that as a winning game plan already. If they don't focus fire a cultist unit entirely he can spend 2 CP and run them right back in place.
In regard to the jump pack, I diasagree. Just because he can deploy anywhere doesn't mean you need to drop him in front of the enemy, you can use him to make your opponent screen up, then drop him in your line where hes the most use. Having a 12" fly move is not bad either, with demon shell and smite i have assassinated more then a few characters later on, give him infernal gaze and it's just about a lock.
As for the apostle, I agree with you here, they suck and need to be dropped to less then a lord. But I was working with what he listed. Your right there though, he could easily imporve the army with a lord. An apostle with cultists is just so cool though, I didn't fault him. This is a tactics thread though so I'll concede that for sure.
4. See I have had much different experiences, I ran a keeper of secrets, demonettes and a mauler fiend as a fluffy auxillery against an opponent and between empty rhinos and them charging up I managed to occupy most of his army all game. I know thats anecdotal, but it's the one of many situations where I have used a small contingent to advance, then assault in turns 2-3 and they generally occupy my opponents backfield for far longer then they would have wished. The DP will live well passed turn 1 since they can't shoot it, so if it's sanwiched between a rhino full of berzerkers and a maulerfiend what do you shoot? maulerfiend takes a lot of shots to kill, and the rhino is expendable, I'd say turn 1 he's better off forming a 2 whino wall with the berserkers behind them in case he goes second, whichever rhino lives they hop into and take off in, DP in between the MF.
5. This is subjective obviously, I mean more shooting is always not enough. But with strategems he can double tap a havoc unit and the helbrute so he has some gun.
6. See my above point. He can start the NM and havocs potentially or the marine units in the rhinos with the KB hidden behind them. Hop them into which ever has room first turn. Again, the enemy has a mighty task if they are dropping the mauler fiend, two rhinos and killing enough cultists to form a gap for their deepstrikers, which apparently will drop NEXT turn without him compensating for the gap. I mean, if their army is capable of all that then he's facing some cheese lol. This will never beat a min maxed bobby G list. At that point I'll repeat myself again, don't waste time on a brigade, just take a killy battalion+X formations.
andysonic1 wrote: Spawn won't push anything off an objective, but they'll hold up anything there long enough for your other units to get there. Bolters also aren't that great at the moment, you'd want to give your bikes special weapons to make them worth it. Remember that you can move 20 inches and then fire flamers with them.
I think even basic bikes now days are worth while for objective taking and they dish out a bunch of bolter shots which is good at clearing chaff for minimal investment. Finding the points for them is difficult though.
I did not want to start a new thread, but has anyone tried a squad of five raptors with 2 x plasma gun and an combi-plasma? It is just under 130, and I use Black Legion (that is what I have been using for years other than Thousand Sons) and with the Stratagem "Let The Galaxy Burn" you can re-roll those ones on the plasma. Anyone try this? Also anyone try 3 bikes with 2 x flamers and combi-flamer? Just advance and hit stuff turn one?
xeen wrote: I did not want to start a new thread, but has anyone tried a squad of five raptors with 2 x plasma gun and an combi-plasma? It is just under 130, and I use Black Legion (that is what I have been using for years other than Thousand Sons) and with the Stratagem "Let The Galaxy Burn" you can re-roll those ones on the plasma. Anyone try this? Also anyone try 3 bikes with 2 x flamers and combi-flamer? Just advance and hit stuff turn one?
The Plasma Raptors aren’t too shabby, I like to have mine rendezvous with a flying Prince or Lord. Usually Icon of Despair, I have a Butcher Cannon and it can easily force opponent to burn 2CP to stop a squad getting wiped.
Flame bikes are looking decent, especially for Black Legion. That is a lot of OW you can dare a horde to brave.
Expect Necromunda to make Sector Mechanicus games more frequent - both units will take on a new element with the goodies on offer there.
You'd probably want to save Let the Galaxy Burn for a bigger unit than a 5 man squad but it can be useful in a pinch. I think a jump lord or DP would be the way to go for their auras but also they are great units.
Okay, I promised to post a more optimized brigade list for CSM at 2000 points, so here it is:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion Brigade
HQ:
Chaos Lord: Jump Pack, Blade of the Hydra
Daemon Prince with Wings: 2x Malefic Talons, Daemon of Slaanesh, Intoxicating Elixir (for 1 CP)
Sorcerer: Jump Pack, Force Stave, Mark of Slaanesh
Troops:
13 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Chaos Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Chaos Space Marines: Lascannon, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Chaos Space Marines: Lascannon, Mark of Slaanesh
Elites:
8 Khorne Berzerkers: Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath
8 Khorne Berzerkers: Chainsword/Chainaxe, Icon of Wrath
10 Noise Marines: 8x Sonic Blaster, 2x Blastmaster
Fast Attack:
Hellforged Dreadclaw Drop Pod
Hellforged Dreadclaw Drop Pod
1 Chaos Spawn
1 Chaos Spawn
Heavy Support:
5 Havocs: 4 Autocannons, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Havocs: 4 Autocannons, Mark of Slaanesh
5 Havocs: 4 Lascannons, Mark of Slaanesh
Honestly, even this could be tightened up further, but it's already beyond what I have model-wise (I only have 1 Chaos guy with a Lascannon, and I haven't converted my Drop Pod kits into Dreadclaws yet). I would infiltrate at least one unit of Cultists, probably 2, in order to screen out deepstrikers. The Berzerkers would drop in the Dreadclaws, possibly waiting until turn 2 to do so in order to give the AC Havocs and Noise Boys a chance to thin out the opposing screen units. The jump characters would probably drop with them, although the Sorcerer could drop further back to give Prescience to one of the shooty units if desired. I decided not to include a Helbrute as that would be my only real armor threat and would die very quickly, -1 to hit be damned. I still feel like I don't have enough heavy guns, but with all the mayhem my forward infiltrators and dropping units could cause, it might not matter.
I'd have to agree with whoever it was that said a Brigade is not optimal at 2000 points for CSM. There are just too many corners to cut. This whole thing for me has been kind of a thought exercise to see just how good a Brigade can get. It does allow lots of use of stratagems with all those CP, even making taking a second Relic a good option.
Side note: On my earlier list, there are 6 troops: the big cultist blob, 3 10-man units, the choppy CSM, and the Lascannon CSM unit. If I put 7 units in my post, it was a mistake. I think I put the right number in this one!
It was me that said brigades are bad at 2k. I stand by it, it's not worth cutting corners on units just for CP's. CP's should elevate your units, so starting off with sub optimal units seems like one step forward and 2 back.
orkswubwub wrote: Are cultists at more than 10 per troop worth it without the ability to negate morale check?
In my opinion you either run minimum squads or a max squad. The 40-man squad can be really good because you can infiltrate it as Alpha Legion and cover the entire board with cultists, and then if they survive turn 1 you can pop Tide of Traitors and get all those points back.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. I won't ask someone to change their Legion Trait. HOWEVER, if you won't build around it, I'll point it out.
2. There's 7. There's 4 minimum Cultists, the strange one at 17, a minimum Marine Lascannon, and then the MoK Marines.
With a Brigade, troops are mostly a tax. With Marines, any troop not a Cultist is really a tax.
3. The Cultists aren't in large enough numbers to deny that space without deployment shenanigans, so with Iron Warriors the best way to do it is to use them as your wall, so to speak. With this list, once a couple of squads are killed, Deep Strikes will have their way.
That's another point with the Sorcerer. Either you're going to make use of the Jump Pack or not. You can't purchase upgrades you MIGHT use. You purchase upgrades you WILL use. Either you're running the Sorcerer up or Deep Strike, or you can just lose the Jump Pack and save some points.
The Apostle is also too expensive to do just have sitting back. A Lord with the correct Warlord Trait will do that for exponentially cheaper and let the shooting units do better work if nearby. The Dark Apostle doesn't offer anything in that scenario.
4. He doesn't need to win through melee, but lone melee threats are bad if not used in saturation. There's not a lot, therefore you kill the them in order based on danger factor. That Daemon Prince won't live T1 because of it, as you're correct that the Maulerfiend takes a decent amount of firepower to kill. That means that it's ignored typically.
5. Elaborate on "enough shooting". I listed the dangerous shooting. That's not enough focus.
6. Berserker Marines are fine in Rhinos if you have enough of them. Just one squad ensures the opponent will kill the Rhino and then they gotta run all the way.
1. I get that, thats fair but most of the traits are worth building around anyway. That doesn't mean they can't be, besides his havocs and brute are where most of his fire support is coming from anyway and they still benefit.
2. Hmm I missed the MoK squad so thats a fair assessment. I still think marines are useful, but so far as to take redundant slots.
3. Sure they are, My guard list runs 4 infantry squads, 3 command squads and a bullgryn unit. I just played a game a few nights ago where I successfully denied 6 deepstriking units from ~65% of the table including my backfield after my turn 1 advances. If you make a chevron shape with two units starting 9" away from your deployment corners and coming together at the midpoint atop of your zone and then use the other units as a picket line across the top you can block your zone and 9" away from your zone, and with first turn advances easily push that zone out beyond half field. As I said I have done it with less infantry, his fire base will fill the middle of his deployment. I mean the two spawn alone will eat a 20" circle when you factor their base. Thats massive. If the enemy is shooting cultists and single spawn to make a gap, which BTW is very hard to do considering a single 25mm model needs a 19.5" diameter circle to land, now add a squad, then I would count that as a winning game plan already. If they don't focus fire a cultist unit entirely he can spend 2 CP and run them right back in place.
In regard to the jump pack, I diasagree. Just because he can deploy anywhere doesn't mean you need to drop him in front of the enemy, you can use him to make your opponent screen up, then drop him in your line where hes the most use. Having a 12" fly move is not bad either, with demon shell and smite i have assassinated more then a few characters later on, give him infernal gaze and it's just about a lock.
As for the apostle, I agree with you here, they suck and need to be dropped to less then a lord. But I was working with what he listed. Your right there though, he could easily imporve the army with a lord. An apostle with cultists is just so cool though, I didn't fault him. This is a tactics thread though so I'll concede that for sure.
4. See I have had much different experiences, I ran a keeper of secrets, demonettes and a mauler fiend as a fluffy auxillery against an opponent and between empty rhinos and them charging up I managed to occupy most of his army all game. I know thats anecdotal, but it's the one of many situations where I have used a small contingent to advance, then assault in turns 2-3 and they generally occupy my opponents backfield for far longer then they would have wished. The DP will live well passed turn 1 since they can't shoot it, so if it's sanwiched between a rhino full of berzerkers and a maulerfiend what do you shoot? maulerfiend takes a lot of shots to kill, and the rhino is expendable, I'd say turn 1 he's better off forming a 2 whino wall with the berserkers behind them in case he goes second, whichever rhino lives they hop into and take off in, DP in between the MF.
5. This is subjective obviously, I mean more shooting is always not enough. But with strategems he can double tap a havoc unit and the helbrute so he has some gun.
6. See my above point. He can start the NM and havocs potentially or the marine units in the rhinos with the KB hidden behind them. Hop them into which ever has room first turn. Again, the enemy has a mighty task if they are dropping the mauler fiend, two rhinos and killing enough cultists to form a gap for their deepstrikers, which apparently will drop NEXT turn without him compensating for the gap. I mean, if their army is capable of all that then he's facing some cheese lol. This will never beat a min maxed bobby G list. At that point I'll repeat myself again, don't waste time on a brigade, just take a killy battalion+X formations.
1. More the point that, if you choose a Legion, you need to capitalize on what's unique to them. This doesn't outside the Prince taking the Fleshmetal.
2. And MoK Marines are super bad compared to other options. In fact, regular Marines are bad overall because Chosen, Havocs, and Cult Marines are options that exist.
3. Infantry Squads are supposed to just hang back with their heavy weapon and take orders. Cultists are used as the minimal tax, objective holders, and screening if possible. Nothing of value is being screened here, and they're not capitalizing on the screening potential that Iron Warriors bring, so we should assume holding objectives. The 17 strong one really just throws a curve into the whole thing, as they're not being treated as that tax and to just sit on objectives. The whole troop section is just a mess and has no cohesion or synergy with the rest of the list, which is pretty impressive in of itself with that list not coming to together anyway.
I'm also not talking about blindly throwing the Sorcerer in the front of the enemy. I'm talking about how the Jump Pack Sorcerer doesn't work with the list as it's lacking focus. A Jump Pack Sorcerer should either pop up and Smite/something else, or creep behind your walls of Rhinos as they advance. There's not a lot of stuff to take the attention away from the Sorcerer. There needs to be more mobile stuff with him.
An Apostle with Cultists is neat. However, they clearly meant for the Apostle to go with the melee stuff in this list, and otherwise you can do better using the Iron Warriors Warlord Trait on a Sorcerer (look at that. If I'm gonna make them camp, why ever buy a Jump Pack?) or Lord.
4. You shoot the Maulerfiend as the Rhino turns into Berserker Marines you gotta shoot too. Now if there were multiple Maulerfiends or Rhinos with Berserker Marines that's different. But there isn't. It's a one-of-everything list. Shoot what'll maybe die quicker.
5. Look at how little there is to make double tap! If the Autocannon Havocs die and the Noise Marines (neither of which will be hard to kill), you got the lone Helbrute. Not a solid strategy.
6. Except the Berserker Marines will need the protection the most because if anything looks that direction that can ignore LoS, they're dead. Then that's one less melee threat to worry about.
I'm not even talking about trying to beat Rowboat's parking garage. The list doesn't HAVE synergy or cohesiveness for even a friendly game. It's one of those awful one-of-everything that looks and performs terribly. Like I said, I could make a Necron list that's mediocre and wreck this.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: What about Chaos Land Raider? It costs 350pts and has who lascanons. Is he good for delivering Rubric flamers?
Actually, I quite like this.
I’ve struggled to find a use for my Land Raider. Everything I’ve put in it seems quite suboptimal.
With DS not having mishaps, anchoring Terminators to a LR seems like a waste.
Berzerkers want delivery, but at their price am niche it’s better to send two squads in Rhinos. Or send a full squad in KAC or Spartan.
PMs and NMs arent shock troops that want a tough transport to take them into a bloodbath.
Chosen probably want my Dreadclaw to carry them to their idea target, especially with the price cut.
I’ve planned to add a Rhino full of Rubric Fire, as a counter to deep strikers. But it seemed like an expensive scarecrow/fire engine.
Putting them in the Raider, deleting the Termagant brood that keeps reinforcing itself, and daring the Genestealers to declare a charge? Popping a CP to give the Sorcerer a useful power? I’m sold.
Perhaps not tournament material, but it looks like an entirely viable option in my meta.
xeen wrote: I did not want to start a new thread, but has anyone tried a squad of five raptors with 2 x plasma gun and an combi-plasma? It is just under 130, and I use Black Legion (that is what I have been using for years other than Thousand Sons) and with the Stratagem "Let The Galaxy Burn" you can re-roll those ones on the plasma. Anyone try this? Also anyone try 3 bikes with 2 x flamers and combi-flamer? Just advance and hit stuff turn one?
They are solid. They are somewhat underused as people prefer to send a big mess of combo plasma equipped terminators with the mark of slaanesh and use the stratagem for twice as much shooting in a single turn. That's 20-40 shots for 500 ish points and the cp, versus 125 for 3-6.
I use the latter when I don't plan to abuse the former, but alpha strikes are nice right now.
I think in general they do really good podcasts on 40k, I’m not really competitive, but I take things from the casts.
Speaking of which, I remember when Iron warriors rules were leaked people were saying they go shafted. I agreed up until recently, but I’m playing on tables with lots of ruins generally speaking, so ignore cover sounds alright. The Iron warriors relic is solid. Stretegem is fine considering chaos can stack FNP’s on big units and the warlord trait is very good. Seems like a very solid 8th ed package.
So, I think the last time I checked this thread was several months ago. To save me from reading hundreds of posts, has any really interesting tactics been thrown around in this thread? Some new fun stuff, some new meta stuff?
On another note, happy about my Fire Raptor getting the 60pt tax cut but I'm struggling to decide on what to spend those new points: upgrade my sorcerers to Termies for an invul? Fully kit out my havocs with Lascannons? More cultists (ewww)? Anything I haven't thought of?
Also, good to be getting back into slaughtering some loyalists.
Bryan01 wrote: On the topic of brigades, Command points vs efficiency and chaos, Allies of convenience did podcasts recently on both topics which I think were good:
I think in general they do really good podcasts on 40k, I’m not really competitive, but I take things from the casts.
Speaking of which, I remember when Iron warriors rules were leaked people were saying they go shafted. I agreed up until recently, but I’m playing on tables with lots of ruins generally speaking, so ignore cover sounds alright. The Iron warriors relic is solid. Stretegem is fine considering chaos can stack FNP’s on big units and the warlord trait is very good. Seems like a very solid 8th ed package.
I use Iron Warriors to supplement my Death Guard army. For one, the Tactical Objectives are much better than the DG ones. Cultists are our only real viable Troops tax, and with Objective Secured I try to make the most of them. Our gaming group plays mostly Maelstrom so ObSec comes in very handy. Intend to take small units just to feed into pox walker farms but if need be, I can take a big blob with the Fearless aura warlord trait.
My last game had a Slaanesh Prince with Relic armor, Delightful Agonies, and the +1 wound and 6++++ fnp, on top of the 5+ from the power. This frees up the Nurgle Prince to act as distraction carnifex and bully bodyguard for the warlord Prince. I moved them up with a Bloat drone, spawn and Heldrake on a flank. The warlord never dropped below 8 wounds, and would just gain it back the beginning of the turn. Priceless.
An Abbadon cultist blob might work better, but IW can get it for a discount. And while their trait doesent come up often for vehicles, it has come in handy for dug in infantry.
What is the best artifact for a chaos lord with jump pack to take if running alpha legion and <any> Mark of Chaos?
The puscleaver seems to get very little love but hitting on 2's rerolling 1's and wounding on a 2+ no matter the toughness with AP -2 and D3 damage looks good to me (of course 4 attacks on the chaos lord). Unless it is a vehicle which is relevant but then roll as normal (str 4)
I know the murder sword gets a lot of hype but I don't see the benefit of 1 mortal wound (the puscleaver on average does 1 extra damage per hit) on a -4AP weapon only hitting on str 5 and it has to be a very specific character nominated at the beginning of the game.
I actually think the brass collar is viable, if it is anticipated that the chaos lord deepstrikes in with obliterators the goal is to maximize his save (3+) and the obliterators save (2+ 5++) so using the brass collar to deny smite (and invoke perils) is sneaky nice in my opinion.
Blade of the hydra only seems better than cleaver to me against T4 enemies and below. I didn't math hammer it but I would guess on 1 attack - slightly worse than puscleaver. On a 3 extra attacks better than puscleaver. On a 2 attacks slightly better than puscleaver (against T4). Against anything with higher toughness that is not a vehicle it is dramatically worse almost on all rolls. In general it would seem the puscleaver provides more general benefit - assuming the lord is being used with oblits to maybe charge or sitting behind the oblits waiting to heroically intervene.
I have used the brass collar to great effect before on a lord. It doesn't seem all that at first but the first time my opponent tried to smite me and it ended up putting wounds on her broodlord, and then her hive tyrant perils, suddenly she was wanting to basically skip the psychic phase, she got scared of killing her own guys. Psychological effect can not be ignored.
@orkswubwub - I’m a big fan of the Murder Sword and I think you’re quite right to leave it off your jump lord - I put it on a Steed lord, who together with his extra attack becomes a terrifying scarecrow for a key deep insertion character, or a sheepdog keeping a key aura character away from the front line. Nobody wants to be within a deleter with a 13+3D6” threat radius.
Black Mace is interesting. Good range of uses, capable of finishing off a walker.
You seem to be considering Brass Collar, which I agree is a useful piece of kit, but your Alpha Legion lord can’t take it?
Totally right had to double check codex. No brass collar for me
I guess I just don't see the damage coming from sword being that high and the use is quite narrow as it essentially is best used against one character. You could tie something up in melee and pluck for 1 guaranteed damage (if you can hit on str 5).
Also doesn't the mace fall slightly flat against most vehicles with T8? I guess there are a handful of Vehcs at T7 but the +3 str doesn't seem to do it.
orkswubwub wrote: Totally right had to double check codex. No brass collar for me
I guess I just don't see the damage coming from sword being that high and the use is quite narrow as it essentially is best used against one character. You could tie something up in melee and pluck for 1 guaranteed damage (if you can hit on str 5).
Also doesn't the mace fall slightly flat against most vehicles with T8? I guess there are a handful of Vehcs at T7 but the +3 str doesn't seem to do it.
I don't think you're reading the murder sword right: Against the targeted character, it does 1 mortal wound PER HIT, instead of the normal damage. So on a lord, that's basically 4 guaranteed mortal wounds per combat phase (WS 2 with reroll), plus any extras you might get with false-emperor or warlord traits. If you can get 2 combat phases off against the target, not much will stand up to that no matter how tough they are (unless you're fighting some big monster or something). If you REALLY need the target to die, you can use the khorne-fight-twice stratagem and basically delete any (non primarch) infantry character.
Notwithstanding Ultramarines and their hit & run, if you're fighting a vehicle and really have to kill it it's probably because it's got a big punchy melee attack. That said all the relic weapons are pretty good, I thought of this as my main opponent is Space wolves and likes her dreads.
I would build around their big benefits, so take assault weapons and a melee on the Champ. Flamers, combi flamers, and melta combi melta are all pretty overpriced though. You could skip the specials, go straight melee and try to max out bikes.
I play a bike list for my Loyalists and body count is always the big issue.
Outrider 119-Lord on Bike with Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
491
Outrider 119-Lord on Bike with Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
491
Outrider 119-Lord on Bike with Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
491
Outrider 144-Sorcerer on Bike with Force Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
124-3 Chaos Bikes, two Meltas, one Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
516
whembly wrote: Anyone played the Minotaur Artillery Tank super-heavy in this edition?
Seems pretty knarly, even thought they shooting at 4+...
That tank + Magnus + Mortorian is right about half of a 2000pt list.
The tank isn't really all that hot, compare it to 2 earthshaker cannons, which are way cheaper, you get to roll 2d6 and choose the highest, and you can fire at 2 different targets.
Has anyone noticed how powerful 40-man MoS Cultist squads are with Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony?
I tabled someone tonight with 3 squads v Tyranids. Turns 3 - 5, moved up a Cultist squad, fired 80 times, then did it again. The last turn, I rolled 200 dice between them to wipe out the bugs.
techsoldaten wrote: Has anyone noticed how powerful 40-man MoS Cultist squads are with Tide of Traitors and Endless Cacophony?
I tabled someone tonight with 3 squads v Tyranids. Turns 3 - 5, moved up a Cultist squad, fired 80 times, then did it again. The last turn, I rolled 200 dice between them to wipe out the bugs.
I've noticed, but I don't have nearly enough models to run multiple 40-man blobs. I can barely field one that size with a few to spare. I personally think it's a waste to use Endless Cacophony on mere autoguns. Better to save that one for Obliterators, Noise Marines, Havocs, Terminators, or even Chosen. That said, it's not a waste to take a 40-man unit, or to mark them Slaanesh. Cast the Delightful Agonies power on them and suddenly they are actually able to save some wounds and really annoy your opponent.
I've kind of considered the same kind of thing, with 40 World Eaters cultists armed with pistol/CCW. 3 attacks each on the charge, and possibly swinging twice with the Khorne stratagem. Again, probably not worth the CP on those guys rather than Berzerkers or something, but if every cultist got to swing twice, it would be 240 attacks! Nothing short of a vehicle would survive that.
and you forgot you can use VOTLW and preiscence on them so... btw compare terminators is a no sense, there are lot of saves at 3+ or worse, think what happen to Ig or orks or tyr, against the targets they are made for, 120 cultists got about 65-70 wounds at 12"....and didn't count a 2nd volley of shots.
A unit of terms is orribly sub par against cultist, they only have ten wounds, you cannot recycle them and they have really low offensive output, their base combi bolter is 40 shot at 12’’, against a Meq they perform like a 40 cultist blob but they 30 points more....
I’ve been building a Poxwalkers farm list for use in small to medium games. Part of it is a large horde of Cultists, Warptimed right in the enemy’s face with plenty of Flamers, with a Poxwalkers unit ready to absorb the dead. Can’t ignore the Cultist horde, killing them makes the zombie attack worse. Giving them MoS opens up an EC to really put the pressure on.
Just played in an ITC tournament with my Chaos list. Ended up winning against a Necron vehicle-heavy list, but getting destroyed by a Tau commander spam list with like 50 shield drones and barely losing to a Harlequin/Ynnari list (by 2 points!). I won't go over the details, but here are my takeaways from it:
-Mortarion is pretty good, but he's also a big bullseye if you don't go first. In that second game he accomplished jack squat because he got reduced to 2 wounds before I got to take my first turn. He did good work in the other two games, especially the first, but I think my list would work better with different stuff instead.
-Obliterators were good in every game. They didn't get to shine in the second due to having nothing but drones to shoot, but in the other two games they did some work. In the third game they ended up very flat due to rolling a lot of 1's for damage, which kills their usefulness. Still, they are a must-take for CSM, I feel.
-Berzerkers are still a unit that internet wisdom says is amazeballs, but have yet to really perform for me. They get lots of attacks and can absolutely shred weaker models and hordes, but struggle to do much vs. vehicles. They put in some work in all three of my games, but not enough. I'm looking at replacing them with different stuff, but what?
-CSM characters should probably take jump packs or bikes all the time, or be Princes. They need to be able to react to any part of the battlefield quickly. My footslogging Sorcerer had some trouble getting much accomplished. In a gunline list with a bunch of Havocs and stuff he could put in work with Prescience, though, and be a backfield threat.
Mortarion players: are you fielding or Summoning a couple of Nurgle Heralds to give him an extra D3W heal and +1 to wound, or what? I’d assume a bunch of Nurglings are a shoe-in?
Latro_ wrote: ow lawd i faced that commander spam list a while back, pretty frustrating to play against.
bet he did the whole running them in 3's and interlinked the drones?
Not quite; he ran 5 Coldstars and 5 Missile Commanders all with ATS. If I had gone first in that game, I probably could have won, but going 2nd just crippled me. I don't think my list was the problem there, as in the game vs. the Harlies I went second and still almost won. Just a bad matchup in that second game.
My best mate’s just got two boxes of Vanguard Veterans.
She’s going to build them as jump pack Wolf Guard with combi-Plasma, storm shield, and thunder hammer.
They come to twenty Power.
A pretty brutal hammer (oho) unit, but not invincible. Smites will get past 3++, quad heavy bolters will force her to fail it, Death Hex will kill it. Chaos Familiar may well enable a sorcerer to tag in whilst Njal shuts down the one that starts the game with DH.
Any other ideas on how to deal with this?
(I really hope she doesn’t do a second squad same but with combi Flamers)
ZergSmasher wrote: -Berzerkers are still a unit that internet wisdom says is amazeballs, but have yet to really perform for me. They get lots of attacks and can absolutely shred weaker models and hordes, but struggle to do much vs. vehicles. They put in some work in all three of my games, but not enough. I'm looking at replacing them with different stuff, but what?
How were you running your Berzerkers? Inside Rhinos with HQ support or running them up the board or drop pods?
darthryan wrote: Personaly loving the idea of 2 or 3 forgefiends/ helbrutes sat in backfield shooting with a warpsmith fixing them. With the regaining 1 wound a turn on the fiends each turn and a smith fixing them i can see them being very hard to shift
Make them all mark of nurgle, and have that warp smith summon in a Herald of nurgle first turn with fleshy abundance. That's an additional d3 heals on those forgefiends for 70pts. And since it's summoned in you don't lose legion traits or the like. I have been running 2 forgefiends and a helldrake this way recently and really it works amazing for healing these guys, which for some reason means my opponents spend more time shooting at them and not my 3 rhinos full of beserkers driving up the board.... Lol.
ZergSmasher wrote: -Berzerkers are still a unit that internet wisdom says is amazeballs, but have yet to really perform for me. They get lots of attacks and can absolutely shred weaker models and hordes, but struggle to do much vs. vehicles. They put in some work in all three of my games, but not enough. I'm looking at replacing them with different stuff, but what?
How were you running your Berzerkers? Inside Rhinos with HQ support or running them up the board or drop pods?
I ran 2 9-man squads in Rhinos, armed with chainaxes/chainswords. I might do better if I gave the champions power fists or something, which would help kill vehicles, but honestly that's not their job anyway. In my list, my Obliterators and Morty were intended to engage vehicles.
To be fair, I may be expecting too much from my Berzerkers. I've had them kill squads of smaller things before, and they routinely strip wounds off of vehicles even if they don't kill them, so maybe they are doing their job. My opponents have been routinely lucky with their saves against them for sure though. For example, in my first outing with them, I took on some Sternguard and did like 9 or 10 wounds with the chainaxes, and my opponent saved all but 2 of them. That's just dice sometimes I guess.
My next planned Chaos list will have a large blob (15 guys) infiltrating forward. If I go second, I just hide them behind LOS-blocking terrain and hope for the best.
Last time I ran beserkers in huge numbers I took 3 squads of 20 on foot, Renegade chapter, with a dark apostle, a deamon prince, and a greater deamon of Khorne following. My opponent had taken a cc based nid army, mostly stealers and gaunts. It was a blood bath. I won that game but I think it's because once our forces hit each other I went first. I am not convinced that large blobs of beserkers are viable just running up the field, even with advance and charge. Probably alpha legion is the way to take them if you want to go that way so they can start right on top of an opponent.
I always give the champ a Power Fist. World Eater Zerker Champ fighting twice with a Power Fist is eight attacks. With an Apostle and Exalted nearby, those attacks are going to land. I've punched out Grand Master Dreads with those attacks and the following Chainaxe spam from the bois to finish the job or roll into a nearby squad. It allows your 5 man Zerker squad to scare a Knight while also being able to blend hordes. Berzerkers really are absurd right now when given proper re-roll support.
I'm on the fence about infiltrating them. Cultist infiltrating and shooting is always going to be better then charging into your opponent's full strength army. I believe Rhinos + HQ support are the better route because it is more flexible.
I think if you want a big zerk unit, it's best off in a Spartan. Even then, two squads in Rhinos are probably better. KAC is interesting but give you two things that really want to be Warptimed, which isn't ideal in Matched Play. Which brings up the weakness of pure WE lists - Warptime, Death Hex, and the three deities' endurance spells are a huge opportunity cost for the +1A.
Anyone have any luck using chaos boon with morty and/or magnus? Adding 1 toughness / the possibility of adding to the save look spicy. I get it is highly variable but if you save a reroll the odds of 1:1 or 6:6 seems slim.
It's... weird. The Death Guard version excludes Daemon Characters and therefore would exclude Mortarion, but CSM version only excludes Daemon Princes, and since it calls out <Heretic Astartes> it may be used on Mortarion if you have a CSM detachment. I think the intent is that you can't use Chaos Boon on the daemon primarchs but by RAW you can.
I guess this is covered on page 156 of the codex:
Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legion deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section. Instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codex's.
In any case I did not notice that this was clarified in the FAQ:
Page 158
– Chaos Boon
Change the first sentence of rules text to read:
‘You can use this Stratagem at the end of a Fight phase
in which one of your Heretic Astartes Characters
(excluding Daemon Characters) slays an enemy
Character, Vehicle or Monster.’
It's... weird. The Death Guard version excludes Daemon Characters and therefore would exclude Mortarion, but CSM version only excludes Daemon Princes, and since it calls out <Heretic Astartes> it may be used on Mortarion if you have a CSM detachment. I think the intent is that you can't use Chaos Boon on the daemon primarchs but by RAW you can.
Csm version has been faqd to be the same wording as DG
Okay, here’s a possible contradiction: CSM pg156 says that DG & TS cannot benefit from any of these, after a list including Stratagems. I seem to recall a community post or something in which it was stated that taking a CSM Detachment opens up CSM Stratagems, and CSM Stratagems which affect a HERETIC ASTARTES unit could be used on a DG or TS unit. I need to resolve this as I’m building a few Word Bearers - DG lists that might want to use Tide of Traitors on DG Cultists.
After their point drop, Defilers are now pretty efficient in terms of power vs points. Just don't put twin lascannons on them because their BS 4+ doesn't make it worth it. Since lascannons all cost 25 points a piece, better to add that to something with a BS 4+ rather than a defiler.
But everything else, Defiler is great. I equipped mine with twin heavy bolter (more shots), combi bolter and power scourge. In close combat, it was deadly, and ranged wise, it was decent too. And it was very resilient. Even if one gets destroyed, its barely 169 points. I took two Defilers and they stamped their presence on the board. For 169 points, they extremely hard to remove.
They are pretty deadly in close combat too. I have had my defiler tank Celestine before. She then fall back because she wasn't gonna kill the defiler anytime soon and a few lucky hits from the defiler may kill her instead. I had my defiler charged by a death company blood angels captain who was the warlord and it not only survived, it killed the captain too. This was despite that captain rocking a storm shield with a 3++
Because its close combat weapons are very high damage, so all you need is to have two hits go through and it would kill most characters. I am loving that my defilers are relevant again!
Eldenfirefly wrote: After their point drop, Defilers are now pretty efficient in terms of power vs points. Just don't put twin lascannons on them because their BS 4+ doesn't make it worth it. Since lascannons all cost 25 points a piece, better to add that to something with a BS 4+ rather than a defiler.
But everything else, Defiler is great. I equipped mine with twin heavy bolter (more shots), combi bolter and power scourge. In close combat, it was deadly, and ranged wise, it was decent too. And it was very resilient. Even if one gets destroyed, its barely 169 points. I took two Defilers and they stamped their presence on the board. For 169 points, they extremely hard to remove.
They are pretty deadly in close combat too. I have had my defiler tank Celestine before. She then fall back because she wasn't gonna kill the defiler anytime soon and a few lucky hits from the defiler may kill her instead. I had my defiler charged by a death company blood angels captain who was the warlord and it not only survived, it killed the captain too. This was despite that captain rocking a storm shield with a 3++
Because its close combat weapons are very high damage, so all you need is to have two hits go through and it would kill most characters. I am loving that my defilers are relevant again!
I slapped Las's on mine, just because of the magic range of 48". I took that and a Havoc, so I could basically use it as an artillery piece in the far, far backline.
I tried it before too. But that makes them kinda more expensive because the twin lascannon is 50 points. And yet, their BS is 4+ whereas CSM can easily get BS 3+ for shooting. Since we are paying the same 50 points for 2 lascannons be it on a defiler or on a Havoc. It kinda seems like a more inefficient choice to get it on a Defiler.
BoomWolf wrote: Also, the defiler is pushing forward anyway, so it doesn't really need that 48 range.
And that's where the catch 22 is. You want to push it into melee, but that makes it hitting on a 5+ the entire walk up. Where as if you sit it in the back, you can just shoot all game without worry.
BoomWolf wrote: Also, the defiler is pushing forward anyway, so it doesn't really need that 48 range.
And that's where the catch 22 is. You want to push it into melee, but that makes it hitting on a 5+ the entire walk up. Where as if you sit it in the back, you can just shoot all game without worry.
If you're just going to make it sit back and shoot why not take Havocs instead?
No need to beat a dead horse that the defiler is odd. The best use, in my experience, has been as a line anchor. I never count on it's shooting other than a nice to have an instead use it as a fatty to counter attack. It's far more survivable than a helbrute for roughly the same cost. I leave it with just a reaper and a power scourge which is a decent unit for 167 points.
BoomWolf wrote: Also, the defiler is pushing forward anyway, so it doesn't really need that 48 range.
And that's where the catch 22 is. You want to push it into melee, but that makes it hitting on a 5+ the entire walk up. Where as if you sit it in the back, you can just shoot all game without worry.
If you're just going to make it sit back and shoot why not take Havocs instead?
Havocs can't take a stratagem that allows them to reroll literally every wound and hit missed in the shootin'.
Shooting with a defiler should always be treated as angry bonus noises as it trundles forwards to smash things. Defilers are cheap giant bullet sponges with really big can-opener hands (not much else can wound T8 on a 2+). Warptime them up the field, feed them daemonforge in combat, or have an apostle nearby and they'll shred whatever they get their mitts on.
McGibs wrote: Shooting with a defiler should always be treated as angry bonus noises as it trundles forwards to smash things. Defilers are cheap giant bullet sponges with really big can-opener hands (not much else can wound T8 on a 2+). Warptime them up the field, feed them daemonforge in combat, or have an apostle nearby and they'll shred whatever they get their mitts on.
with all the powerful things chaos can warptime you think someone warptime a defiler? thank God there are players using warptime for that, stay away Mortarion, Magnus, CaC termies, big blobs of berserkers and so on Defiler is decent for his basic cost, but usually do nothing against semi-competitive/competitive lists, havocs with 3 las cannons marked slaanesh deals tons of more damage, votlw on them plus slaanesh stratagems and you have 6 hits wounding almost anything on 2+ -3ap and 6d6 potential damage, use mathammer if you want and you ll see....make them alpha legion put in cover then let me know which unit last longer.
daemonix wrote: What is the viability of 5 man chaos marine units with either a lascannon or missile launcher in the unit?
Frontline Gaming swear by bois as anti-alpha-strike zoners. I can see the appeal: allow your other units to move around the board while keeping your opponent exactly where you want them by denying deep strike in overlapping bubbles. Plus you have a heavy weapon plinking wounds off gak from afar. It's not a bad strategy at all and helps fill out a potential second Battalion.
It's not chaos, but I run my Salamander Space Marines this way, at least 4 squads of 5 men with 1 laz cannon or missile launcher, I normally give the srg a combi flamer for charge protection as well. They work well for me as anti deep strike area denial, protecting my tanks or what have you from the dreaded deep strike and fire. No Trygons filled with genestealers popping up around here! Lol.
I am liking the idea of a squad of havocs, 10 man, with 4 heavy bolters for a semi-forward fire position. They should be cheap enough to not worry if they die but have enough firepower to help support whatever needs it. What's the consensus on this for anti horde? Cost too much? It would be vs genestealers and the like.
I want to add a few things.
Do you not know how an online forum works?
I'm looking at replacing them with different stuff, but what?
