If you go all rhinos and zerkers don't be surprised if you get shot off the board - also dumping kharn solely as a reroll mechanic is a waste of points (imho). It is a fun flavor list but if you play an optimized list / local gamestore hero you will be in trouble.
lindsay40k wrote: There's always the option to switch a Heldrake with a Hell Blade. It'll save dropping a Berzerker for the meat shield, and if you come up against an opposing Air Wing it'll stop DftS dogfights from being a one-sided pigeon shoot. Pretty good capability at pouncing on backfield indirect fire units and characters, too.
So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?
Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.
How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?
Azuza001 wrote: So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?
Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.
How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?
I would hardly worry about the 1's of hitting. He does give himself his reroll benefit after all. That's a 1/36 chance of hitting your own dude. You're fine.
Azuza001 wrote: So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?
Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.
How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?
I would hardly worry about the 1's of hitting. He does give himself his reroll benefit after all. That's a 1/36 chance of hitting your own dude. You're fine.
Kharn cannot re-roll his ones, says so right there in his The Betrayer rule.
Azuza001 wrote: So how would you run kharn? Just not worry about the 1's in close combat?
Also I understand it's not the most competitive list, but I don't see how my opponent would be able to kill all 6 rhinos in the first turn of shooting, and with how close armies start to each other with the current deployment system I don't need the rhinos to last past first turn. And it's not like the old days when you started 30" apart, I don't expect all of the beserkers to get there but I don't see getting shot off the board either.
How would you run a world eaters army with no Forge world options?
I would hardly worry about the 1's of hitting. He does give himself his reroll benefit after all. That's a 1/36 chance of hitting your own dude. You're fine.
Kharn cannot re-roll his ones, says so right there in his The Betrayer rule.
Huh, how'd I miss that?
Still 1/6 of the time then. I'm fine with those odds.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Other good FAQ news is that if you unlock Chaos Space Marine stratagems, they Can be used on DG and TS units that fit the criteria.
Anyone see advantages to this? Obvious one is tide of traitors on DG cultists (but, probabyl AL are better) and daemonforge on DG daemon vehicles.
It's worth noting daemonforge doesn't work on death guard daemon engines. Daemonforge specifies a chaos space marine daemon engine. DG demon engines are not chaos space marine demon engines, any more than a DG detachment qualifies as a chaos space marine detachment for the purpose of unlocking the the stratagems in the first place.
It's really weird and clunky, but chaos space marine x refers to something from the CSM codex. The heretic astartes keyword is used to indicate it must belong to any of the CSM/heretic astartes armies.
Hmm... Kharn as quartermaster. Interesting. Halfway to an always-on Daemonforge. Not impossible to get him in range of two Lords of Skulls and two Forgefiends or Defilers. That'd be a surprisingly formidable gunline.
You don't have to worry about him hitting his comrades, you know. You can stage-manage your pile-in moves - "move 3" and get closer to the nearest enemy model" gives you a lot of leeway for creative sidesteps and not even moving at all. As long as someone's next to Kharn when their unit makes their attacks and isn't when Kharn is making his attacks, they're out of his reach.
I know, and I really am not that afraid of it honestly, I am the kind of player who ran mass plasma back when it would always blow up on a 1. But I just find karn with reroll all misses and defilers combo so interesting, defilers main negative is its bs5+ when moving and if kharn is there suddenly that's a lot more hits and you have a moving crab line of defilers that will make anything think twice about charging.
If I didn't have so many beserkers I would look at going that route with my world eaters army. But 60+ beserkers I need to find a tactic that makes them effective enough to justify them without trying to go full mass army change.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have read this entire thread from page one now and have some questions in regards to world eaters myself. I'm normally a single legion army personally, not wanting to run multiple detachments of different legions so no sorcerers for me. Also no Forge world. I don't have a problem with Forge world personally but I don't want to run it myself.
Kharn the betrayer seems to work best as a supportive unit for long range, like defilers or predators. Is this the general consensus, run him for his aura giving shooting units a nice boost and using his powerful cc stats as a counter offensive to make my opponent think twice about charging my fire line, but keep him away from your actual beserkers. Fair assessment?
Most people say run beserkers in rhinos and not floot slog them, but I have 60 beserkers and 1 rhino lol. I'm thinking of getting 5 more rhinos to do a 6 rhino rush, or just running them as 3 large blobs and run. If I do the running beserkers I would run renegades legion tactics and get access to sorcerer, but lose kharn and the nice +1 attack on charge for advance and charge, is this probably the best way to go? (Oh and I would have to run elite detachments because I now have no troops). Which is the better way to go do you guys think? I think they both have merits.
Helldrakes : I love the model but it seems to do best as a distraction carnifex at this point unless my opponent runs aircraft themselves, in which case it's fly straight at it and charge. Fair assessment? Have you guys had any luck using them a different way?
Finally, Deamon prince. I have been running him with wings, talons, and the collar artifact for my anti psychic use. I think this is a fantastic way to run it, powerful, quick, and supportive. If I do go the renegades way though would it be better to go mark of slaneesh with the elixir? He could still counter psychic powers, still get a ton of attacks at a higher strength, and get access to his own psychic powers, I am thinking the 5+ fnp power would be most useful on himself.
Have I gotten this all correct or did I miss something?
I have run Kharn alongside a Lord of skulls and a Land raider before as well as in a more static gunline parking lot with a mix of defiler and predators. For helping the defiler, he is a mixed bag, he certainly helps the defiler, but a 4+ is still a 4+ and if you try shooting at a flyer, then it becomes 5+ (without any degrading). Even a Kharn reroll won't help the defiler much if you are aiming to hit a flyer. He makes the Lord of skulls and the Land raider get alot of their hits in. And the good thing is, both are moving up the board anyway, so Kharn will likely see some action. He might lag behind just a bit but its ok if you move advance. By the time he truly lags behind, you should be in combat already. But just keep him away from squads or berserkers, he doesn't really help those because his reroll only applies to models within 1 inch, not units. Now that there is a strategem to give LOS reroll to hit and reroll to wound (demonforge), then Kharn is no longer so important here. And Land Raider is kinda overcosted to begin with. So, if I ever ran such a list now, I am not sure I would take a LR, and Kharn would not be strictly necessary either. Oh, Kharn is good against assasins, I ever got him into a fight with a Curelex assasin before. He mopped the floor on that assasin because he always hits on a 2+.
For your berserkers, at the risk of being unfluffy, I would suggest running Alpha legion for the entire 60 zerkers and then using the forward operatives strategem to infiltrate them to within 9.1 inches. Then if you go first, you move and charge already. Even if you go second, you weather just one round of shooting, and then you move and charge too. Probably the best strategy for a footslogging zerker army. At 20 man per squad, you just need to spend 3 points to infiltrate up 3 squads of 20 each.
Actually, in my limited experience, truly shooty armies are not afraid of berzerkers. They can delete a lot of zerkers in one round and they just need to throw some speed bumps in your way. Cheap infantry and stall you. So, you charge those and destroy it. Then next turn they shoot you again. Even if you finally get to charge one of their heavy support units. That unit either dies or falls back while the rest happily shoots you yet again. By the time you make it across the board in the face of all that shooting, you simply don't have enough models to go around hunting each and every heavy support choice they have. Also, some shooty lists will have that one or two really scary models that can easily take on a depleted squad of berzerkers and mop the floor with them. I am referring to models like Gulliman or Celestine. Either one will make quick work of a half dead zerker squad that finally reaches their battle line. It might be different if you charge them at full strength, but honestly, its a gunline. You will be lucky to be at half strength by the time you get to charge him, or he is doing gunline wrong.
A shooty army will single out your most dangerous units (those that can give their Gulliman or celestine problems) and take those out first. Usually this means your heavy support shooting, or your Magnus or Mortarion if you are running those (cos they can be targetted). They will worry about your footslogging zerkers after they have used that one round to take out your heavy support or your Magnus, because they will have speed bumps prepared. That's why Alpha legion is so deadly. If you get to go first, you can literally charge his lines with 60 zerkers. If you still can't beat a shooty army despite having a first turn charge with 60 zerkers, then we can probably agree that world eaters aren't competitive this edition. lol
Kharn's reroll only applies to models within 1"? It says units in my Index.
Beating down a Culexus with him must have been hilarious. "Heretic foolsss! Do you know the power I wield? I can sssever your sssorcerersss' link to the Warp! There isss only one in the galaxssy feared by psssykerssss more than I, and in these ssshadowsss no man other than he can ssstrike me! ...What? ...Oh, Throne. He's behind me, isn't he?"
Still feel the 60 zerker play is forced and using kharn as a rerolling buffer is a bit over the top and not worth maximizing point cost. Its not that it is bad vanilla per se, but certainly not optimized. I have no idea how you would fight 8 commander spam (tau) with that list or a gunline of astra militarum/imperial guard.
To just assume its worthwhile as long as one group of zerkers charges in I don't see as beneficial and there are other units that benefit more form the -1 to hit.
If you wanted to run a worldeaters army my suggestion would be a focused amount of zerkers with kharn in tow for the rerolls. I forget if this was a "no FW" army but putting a kharb assault claw in makes all the more sense. Supplement this with a reasonable amount of bubblewrap and some heavy support in back is my suggestion.
lindsay40k wrote: Kharn's reroll only applies to models within 1"? It says units in my Index.
Beating down a Culexus with him must have been hilarious. "Heretic foolsss! Do you know the power I wield? I can sssever your sssorcerersss' link to the Warp! There isss only one in the galaxssy feared by psssykerssss more than I, and in these ssshadowsss no man other than he can ssstrike me! ...What? ...Oh, Throne. He's behind me, isn't he?"
Hmmm, ok not sure. it might have been unit, but still. I would run Kharn for vehicles, they need the reroll a lot more than infantry units. If I wanted infantry to get a reroll in close combat, a dark apostle is far far cheaper than Kharn.
It WAS hilarious. But to be fair, he wasn't charging Kharn, he was charging another unit who happened to be within 3 inches of Kharn, so I got to heroic intervention Kharn into battle as well. Not that it made much of a difference, I was close to being tabled already at that point in the game because I was trying so hard to run a world eaters list against a shooty list. Kharn actually made it across the table and reached the enemy battle lines in the end, but he was one model, he couldn't catch and kill every single heavy support all by himself. And I simply didn't have much left (the rest had been all shot to bits).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
orkswubwub wrote: Still feel the 60 zerker play is forced and using kharn as a rerolling buffer is a bit over the top and not worth maximizing point cost. Its not that it is bad vanilla per se, but certainly not optimized. I have no idea how you would fight 8 commander spam (tau) with that list or a gunline of astra militarum/imperial guard.
To just assume its worthwhile as long as one group of zerkers charges in I don't see as beneficial and there are other units that benefit more form the -1 to hit.
If you wanted to run a worldeaters army my suggestion would be a focused amount of zerkers with kharn in tow for the rerolls. I forget if this was a "no FW" army but putting a kharb assault claw in makes all the more sense. Supplement this with a reasonable amount of bubblewrap and some heavy support in back is my suggestion.
Well, against truly competitive lists, it would probably fail. I mean, its rather one dimensional. But an assault army IS one dimentional. It just wants to get in close and fight in melee.
Yes there is a difference between not being competitive and just being frustrated. This type of comp literally has no way of dealing with 8 commander spam and would be tabled without killing a model almost... Games like that can be harrowing - as long as the mindset is - let's run this for the LOL's and see what happens - to each their own.
So I guess the consensus is with zerkers they are amazing but you have to make them a threat asap and not waste time. And for world eaters that's done by rhinos or Forge world Support. But you also have to be able to use them against the right targets, take out weaker bubble rap units first.
So here is the question. 4 squads of 10 beserkers, 4 rhinos with combi bolters / combi meltas. 3 hellbrutes with heavy plasma cannons and kharn. 2 bike squads of 3, leader with combi bolters, 1 with melta gun. Deamon prince with wings and brass collar. That's 11 drops, 100 power level or 2030 pts (easy enough to get down to 2000, just drop a melta or a beserker).
The idea is the hellbrutes can overcharge the plasma cannons and stay with kharn to keep rerolls on the hits and not worry so much about hurting themselves.
The rhinos move forward full speed, pop smoke, and then drop off the zerkers and let them work forwards. Use the rhinos combi bolters to clear bubble rap units. Also use the bikers to do the same.
Deamon prince protects with the collar and moves towards attacking any flying / high priority targets.
Any tanks/heavy units will need to be taken out by the meltas or plasma cannons, not their best plan but doable.
It's the best competitive list I can think of for pure world eaters. It keeps moving, not a single part needs to stay still to be effective. But I really think your right Eldenfirefly, pure isn't competitive. But it could be fun.
Don't get me wrong. I agree. I was always trying to run some form of world eaters, or at least a mixed assault army, but it always failed miserably. I would always get shot off the board against my opponent who loved to play shooty lists.
It simply never worked. You would have thought that I could cater to a shooty list since I always played him. But a world eaters list just doesn't fare very well against a shooty list. Maybe I just didn't have the right mix of units for a truly assault army. But so far, I have yet to be able to think of a world eaters army that really worked well. One of the key issues is that the world eaters list needs shooting. You simply need to clear away chaff infantry road blocks as well as cheap transports that are in your way. You can't afford to charge these. Every turn you fail to charge the truly dangerous parts of a shooty army is one turn he gets to shoot you with full effect. And world eaters aren't very resilient. zerkers are same as a normal CSM when it comes to durability. Just once you start putting some shooty elements in, then you weaken your assault portions. And then you risk getting into a shooting war with your opponent, and world eaters simply can't outshoot a dedicated shooty army because its not their strength.
Well I think we should be honest here as well, the world eaters trait seems amazing at first but really is the extra attack needed? Probably not. At which case slaneesh DP with noise marines or slaneesh oblits as backup suddenly becomes very, VERY tempting. Renegade chapter trait or alpha legion chapter trait, both options are very useful. It means we lose kharn but he isn't the end all - be all of Khorne.
Alternatively you can run a detachment of world eaters where this is strong and make the remainder of the army alpha etc. as needed. Depends if you want it fluff based or not.
Azuza001 wrote: Well I think we should be honest here as well, the world eaters trait seems amazing at first but really is the extra attack needed? Probably not. At which case slaneesh DP with noise marines or slaneesh oblits as backup suddenly becomes very, VERY tempting. Renegade chapter trait or alpha legion chapter trait, both options are very useful. It means we lose kharn but he isn't the end all - be all of Khorne.
Honestly, the +1 attack on the charge doesn't matter. Maybe for selected units like terminators, but not for berserkers, who already have tons of hits anyway. Actually, if you really want a CC unit that is durable, fast and gets the job done, I feel that units like Magnus, Mortarion and even regular flying Daemon princes are better at getting the job done. They may not be the best at clearing chaff, but you don't use such units to clear chaff anyway. You fly OVER the chaff and charge the units that do matter, or you shoot out the chaff and then send these units in. Berzerkers are like a distraction, and possibly a fire magnet. Except that they can be conveniently ignored while they are footslogging up the field, and putting them in a Rhino then invests far too many points to get a specialised melee unit up the field.
Shooters can chose what they want to shoot (unless its a character). Melee usually can only charge whatever is in front of them and within charge range. You can say that melee can charge characters over units. But if the opponent is leaving his characters in front of his units for your melee to conveniently charge, then its just a newbie mistake by him.
So in terms of making a decent WE centred army: maybe a battalion with zerkers in rhinos, led by DPs or DAs, then an AL detachment with oblits and a sorcerer, and maybe some cultist bubble wrap in there too? Looking for “strong” rather than bleeding edge competitive really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an addendum: what’s the view on predator weapons? Mixed or full lascannon? Shooting has changed a bit since I last played so maybe HB sponsons with twin lascannon turrets would have good mileage.
Most people like their quad laz cannon preds, and they do a great job, but I really like my autocannon / hb pred. I guess it depends on your target. I use my ac/hb one for big bug hunting / swarmlord clearing and it's never let me down. But I think personally the autocannon with side laz is how I would have modeled it now days. And the difference between autocannon and dual laz on top is a point, so it's really about what you like.
But I would not go dual laz / hb sides. The autocannon is more versatile than the laz, but hb's are really only anti infantry and putting it on with laz cannons which are only anti vehicle / monster it's not got the ability to be as flexible as you may think it would be.
Azuza001 wrote: Most people like their quad laz cannon preds, and they do a great job, but I really like my autocannon / hb pred. I guess it depends on your target. I use my ac/hb one for big bug hunting / swarmlord clearing and it's never let me down. But I think personally the autocannon with side laz is how I would have modeled it now days. And the difference between autocannon and dual laz on top is a point, so it's really about what you like.
But I would not go dual laz / hb sides. The autocannon is more versatile than the laz, but hb's are really only anti infantry and putting it on with laz cannons which are only anti vehicle / monster it's not got the ability to be as flexible as you may think it would be.
But with the ability to split fire as you see fit these days, seems like it could be? Beforehand it would’ve been an awful choice, but now seems like a decent one.
Azuza001 wrote: Most people like their quad laz cannon preds, and they do a great job, but I really like my autocannon / hb pred. I guess it depends on your target. I use my ac/hb one for big bug hunting / swarmlord clearing and it's never let me down. But I think personally the autocannon with side laz is how I would have modeled it now days. And the difference between autocannon and dual laz on top is a point, so it's really about what you like.
But I would not go dual laz / hb sides. The autocannon is more versatile than the laz, but hb's are really only anti infantry and putting it on with laz cannons which are only anti vehicle / monster it's not got the ability to be as flexible as you may think it would be.
But with the ability to split fire as you see fit these days, seems like it could be? Beforehand it would’ve been an awful choice, but now seems like a decent one.
You've got two Lascannons. You can add a Predator Autocannon or two Heavy Bolters. The difference in cost is two CSMs in points, or nothing in power levels.
It's not bad it's just not as good as you might be thinking.
Think about it this way. Most people give their squads and units a job. They take their units for a specific job and that is where they Excell. But when you give it 50% dedicated anti infantry and 50% dedicated anti vehicle it's not going to be able to do anything 100%. It's why I like the auto cannon/hb if I am going to go with the hb's. Against infantry that autocannon will make quick work of whatever it shoots at. And if my dedicated av unit needs someone backup the pred autocannon will do easy in a pinch (seriously I love that gun. I wish I could take more of them. S7, 2d3 shots, and 3 garunteed damage? Yes please. Granted it's Ap is only - 1 but against lighter vehicles like raiders or tyrnaid hive tyrants or carnifexs it's perfect for its job.
By giving it dual laz and hb's I just think it won't be as effective as a "can deal with any target" type of unit.
Has anyone found a use for generic troop marines? I play iron warriors and I keep trying to find a way for them to be useful. I end up using using cultists for troops in a battalion and just take berserkers in elites instead when building a list because it just seems better
Boogles wrote: Has anyone found a use for generic troop marines? I play iron warriors and I keep trying to find a way for them to be useful. I end up using using cultists for troops in a battalion and just take berserkers in elites instead when building a list because it just seems better
I use em, usually 4 squads of 10 with two Lascannons or Missile Launchers each. Just a power armor mob that forms a gun line or advances en-masse. I play Black Legion though, so Abaddons there giving them re-rolls to hit and boosting their lethality (also making them immune to morale). I've started adding Combis to the Sergents, and will probably experiment with P-fists too. Your mileage may vary with Iron Warriors, but I like them as a big, solid core.
I'm not sure but what taking 10 regular CSM with 2 Meltaguns and a Combimelta in a Rhino could work. Maybe give the other guys chainswords instead of bolters for more attacks if they charge after shooting. I say this because this is what I ran back in 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin sometimes and it's one squad I have modeled. I don't think it's optimal at all though; I think bikes and Raptors are better ideas for Melta delivery since they can use speed and/or "deep strike" (Raptors anyway) to get in range. Back in 7th, Berzerkers sucked balls, so it was better to run regular CSM. Nowadays, quite the opposite.
Believe me, I want regular CSM to be good since I've got two 10-man squads of them, one with Meltas and chainswords, the other with Plasmas and bolters. Right now they are doing shelf duty while the Berzerkers and Noise Marines have their fun.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm not sure but what taking 10 regular CSM with 2 Meltaguns and a Combimelta in a Rhino could work. Maybe give the other guys chainswords instead of bolters for more attacks if they charge after shooting. I say this because this is what I ran back in 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin sometimes and it's one squad I have modeled. I don't think it's optimal at all though; I think bikes and Raptors are better ideas for Melta delivery since they can use speed and/or "deep strike" (Raptors anyway) to get in range. Back in 7th, Berzerkers sucked balls, so it was better to run regular CSM. Nowadays, quite the opposite.
Believe me, I want regular CSM to be good since I've got two 10-man squads of them, one with Meltas and chainswords, the other with Plasmas and bolters. Right now they are doing shelf duty while the Berzerkers and Noise Marines have their fun.
I want regular CSM to be good too, mainly because I have about 80 of them sitting on shelf duty.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Ok I've assembled 10 world eater warp talons (using parts from useless csms, blood for the blood god)
Any advice for how to use them effectively ?
Deepstrike near a unit with lethal firepower, Warptime, charge. Double points if you co-ordinate with Berzerkers, to kick their heads in, or Fiends of Slaanesh, to make sure they're not going anywhere.
Ten can destroy a gunner unit on their own, two Squads of five can come in one turn after another to lead two charges or shut down two units.
If the enemy's screen is a picket line, FLY often enables you to jump over it to get at the guys behind it. Don't forget to declare charges on everything within 12" - you're immune to OW, so give yourself plenty of options before you see what the charge distance is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, wait, World Eaters. Hmm.
Either take an allied Legion that can give you Warptime, or drop them in and hope for the best. By all means have a shot at a charge on arrival, but assume it will fail and base their positioning on the assumption they'll not be charging until next turn and eating Overwatch. If you're going Daemonkin, they can hang out with a Herald for +1S. Jugger herald, Flesh Hounds, WT, maybe a Rhino full of Possessed and a DA, not a bad strike force.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Ok I've assembled 10 world eater warp talons (using parts from useless csms, blood for the blood god)
Any advice for how to use them effectively ?
Drop them in with a sorcer + jump pack and warptime them close to whatever you are trying to kill and charge without having to worry about overwatch. 10 talons is going to do a lot of damage and with warptime, they should have plenty of opportunity to hit some juicy targets. They fill the role of assassins nicely I think.
Just be careful of deny the witch. If warptime fails your talons need to make a very risky charge roll and if this fails, they will likely get shot to pieces.
I love my talons, havent had much chance to play them much yet though. Let us know how they go.
With regard to CSM Squads, I had good results with them early on. But that was fielding them as a WB horde when people didn't know what they were doing, now I've just built two plasma pistoliers and some more heavy gunners and split them all away into Berzerker, Havoc, and Chosen squads.
Snip off a Bolter magazine and replace it with a Warp Talon vane, replace the barrel with 16mm of tubing, glue on a gargoyle face gun tip from the vehicle sprue, you've got a Sonic Blaster...
Not really. I play power level normally and 10 havocs are more effective for the cost than 10 normal.
It's not that they are bad, they just are outshined by virtually every thing else. Havocs cover special weapons or heavy better. Chosen cover close combat better. Cultists cover cheap bubble better.
I suppose if your needing their ops spec ability small squads of 5 would work.
Even if you need obsec or CPs, there's just no contest for me between fifteen CSMs or fifty Cultists :/
Even if you're going to be defending a ruin, ten with two heavy bolters might look alright - after first turn, they've got a 2+ against AP1, right? - but they still want a screen to keep deep insertion melee specialists from walking up and destroying them. obsec means nothing when you're dead.
And if you're going to screen them, it's going to be with cultists, and if you've got a cultist screen around an infantry unit in a ruin that's not going to move, why not just make them Havocs and take twice as many big guns?
Loyalists take Tactical Squads when more Scouts would be excessive and out of lack of better options. CSM Squads are arguably better than Tacs, with their option for two special or heavy, but three times as many Cultists is rarely not better.
Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing.
I am using 20 man CSM squads with bolt guns and 2x Lascannons. Going to compare them with NM squads with 10 men, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2x Blastmasters and a Rhino.
A number of people have cited the idea that NMs / KBs / Cultists / Chosen / Havocs do everything better. My response is kind of, these advantages mean less than you might think.
As far as the shooting advantages NMs get, it's not that significant. A Sonic Blaster is an assault 3 bolt gun. Assuming each squad is at full strength - when the NMs are shooting at 24 inches, they get 24 bolter shots compared to 18 with the CSMs. At 12 inches, they still get 24 shots but the CSMs get 36 with Rapid Fire.
I find what matters is what happens over multiple turns. In practice, few opponents stand around at 24 inches for those Noise Marines to shoot at. They are either advancing to close in for the charge or shooting back to whittle down the squad. Each time you lose a Noise Marine, you are losing 3 shots. Each time you lose a CSM, you are losing 1 shot.
So NMs come on strong but get weaker faster and they are half the size. I hate the feeling this glorious elite unit is about to lose so much of it's potency the turn after it disembarks, which is what happens when I play them. They may have a better position on the board because of the Rhino, but will they be able to hold it?
Compare this with the not-so-humble 20 man CSM squad. Since Rhinos are not an option, they march up the board. Sure, they take some wounds doing this, but they get to fire their Lascannons each turn. An extra 2 Lascannon shots per squad each turn is significant, those multi-damage wounds add up. Sure, they are not firing their bolters, but the NMs are not firing their Sonic Blasters either.
Where a 20 man CSM squad shines is camping objectives, they remain a long range threat while parking themselves just about anywhere on the board. When they have cover / a reroll aura / Prescience / VotLW going for them, removing them from the board becomes very hard. Now think about what happens when there are 3 of those 20 man CSM squads on separate objectives. Sure, it can be done, but it's not trivial.
So, NMs have some other advantages. Sure, they have MotA, they can fight first if they are Emperor's Children, and there's that Slaanesh Strategem for shooting twice. MotA is a boost a NM for the turn before it dies, then the squad is that much weaker. Fighting first is great for squads that are not dedicated shooting specialists, if it comes into play with NMs you are doing it wrong. This would be a great Legion trait for Berzerkers. Shooting twice is great, but you can give CSMs the same stratagem and they would have more shots at 12 inches. So it's not an exclusive advantage.
The game is 5 - 7 turns. If you are playing a game with objectives - where position matters - I see more value in big CSM squads. If you are playing a game where the goal is just to kill as many things as possible on the board - both are good, Emperor's Children NMs might have the edge. The one scenario I have found where Noise Marines are hands-down better is dropping 2 10 man squads with a Kharybdis Assault Claw, they can usually shoot up enough things to mitigate the blow back they take the next turn. Part of this is b/c the KAC is a huge distraction unit, it gets a lot of attention the moment it eats a tank.
For the record, the cost of each CSM squad works out to 312 points / 15 PL. The cost of each NM squad + Rhino works out to 294 points / 15 PL. So they are roughly equivalent. If you think it's easier to compare them without the Rhino at the same points, great, take 13 NMs (15 if you are playing power levels.)
Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.
How are you getting four Lascannon shots from a single CSM squad? EC? If I switch out mounted NMs for CSM horde, my EC is getting used on Oblits or Havocs, not two lascannons firing from sea level at -1 to hit. Unless we're in extraordinary circumstances (and if we're talking fringe cases, I'm sure someone will win a game by Advancing NMs into range and letting rip on something that thought 31" was a safe distance).
NMs and CSMs have completely different roles. NMs jumping out of a rhino and popping VOTLW & EC & buffs on turn one will annihilate a screening unit or two. The CSMs blob will do far less and get a Lascannon hit (because they're not getting Strategems). NMs are a fast burn unit, that you get into their generous threat range early on and fire six shots a piece - nine, if you positioned them right so that the enemy can't evacuate their threat radius before returning fire.
Close combat? Bring it on. 2A a piece, and every time someone kills one they get played a riff or fed a Krak grenade. They've done their job already by clearing a path for the Berzerker party vans, if shock troops want to eat all that Overwatch and then get shot even more then that's fine by me.
BL does give CSMs a lot of merit, though - I've had good results from hordes before people adapted their lists to counter banzai charges, but you get to give them fearlessness and full re-rolls and take some shots whilst Advancing. I can definitely see Somme reenactment working for you, especially if three units each get a different mark and endurance spell. Plus LGBT enables Abaddon to leave a unit unsupervised and still get their rerolls. But I'd probably still want to bring along NMs. Kerrrang!
One thing I have learned a lot recently is that against most armies you either need to have any elite unit in DS reserve or in transports. Anything else will just die to quickly.
Think about it this way. For most of our units their damage output is actually better than their points would justify. The key is that they are typically fragile and only do damage in specific situations. Khorne Berzerkers are a solid example. They are absolute BLENDERS, however they are worse than cultists outside of that for their points.
Every single game I lose so many models to shooting before they even get to do anything that I might as well have just bought 3-4 times as many cultists.
So many games are down to "Did I go first or not" because its all in on damage rather than building in survivability
So now lets look at adding a Rhino - You are spending 7.4 points per T7 3+ wound. That alone is pretty crazy and you would gak a brick if you could buy a 1 wound model with those stats for that number of points.
Now lets also look at she who shall not be named (mortal wounds). Smite doesnt give two morks what you are paying for, it just takes off wounds. Once again this is where the rhino shines. The smites that could easily kill a 10 wound 300 point unit could instead put all of those points into a 74 point unit.
So on and so forth.
TLDR: Put your expensive gak in Rhinos or Deep Strike Reserve.
I absolutely agree about putting your stuff in armor, or in Reserves. I run a 2-Rhino, 1 Land Raider list that has 3x5 CSM, 1x5 Plasma Havocs, 7 Berserkers, an Exalted Champion and (if I need to get down to 6 drops) a Sorcerer with a Jump Pack. I'm running a few other things with this, but this is the 'mounted' portion of the list.
lindsay40k wrote: How are you getting four Lascannon shots from a single CSM squad? EC? If I switch out mounted NMs for CSM horde, my EC is getting used on Oblits or Havocs, not two lascannons firing from sea level at -1 to hit. Unless we're in extraordinary circumstances (and if we're talking fringe cases, I'm sure someone will win a game by Advancing NMs into range and letting rip on something that thought 31" was a safe distance).
That was a typo. You are right, it's 2 shots per lascannon. I have been taking 3 20 man squads my last 3 games, which was 6 lascannon shots each turn.
Unlike with my Laspreds / Obliterators / Helbrutes, these lascannons survived the entire game, meaning a total of 30+ Lascannnon shots (as long as the CSM squads did not get charged.)
For the record, using EC on a 20 man CSM squad within 12 inches would result in more shots than NMs are capable of. It's only at the 12 - 24 distance that it makes a difference. As far as Havocs go, this was meant to be a comparison with Noise Marines. Havocs have their own issues.
lindsay40k wrote: NMs and CSMs have completely different roles. NMs jumping out of a rhino and popping VOTLW & EC & buffs on turn one will annihilate a screening unit or two. The CSMs blob will do far less and get a Lascannon hit (because they're not getting Strategems). NMs are a fast burn unit, that you get into their generous threat range early on and fire six shots a piece - nine, if you positioned them right so that the enemy can't evacuate their threat radius before returning fire.
Not sure I agree with the idea they fill different roles.
First off, why would NMs jump out of a Rhino on turn one? They can only disembark before the Rhino moves. If they are going to do this, why take a Rhino? That would be an expensive shield. Second, what Stratagems do Noise Marines get that do not also apply to CSM squads? If anything, I think CSMs get access to more stratagems that provide better benefits.
In most games, I did not have the NMs disembark before turn 2 unless the Rhino was destroyed. In many games, they were still in the Rhino turn 3 because of the rules about disembarking - there was nothing worth shooting in 30 inches before the Rhino moved.
You are right about Noise Marines being a fast burn. I had been finding opponents learn how to prevent them from taking advantage of it using the tactics you mention - keeping it so they only face the chaff for a turn. It's the things at 31+ inches that I usually really want to get to with them.
lindsay40k wrote: Close combat? Bring it on. 2A a piece, and every time someone kills one they get played a riff or fed a Krak grenade. They've done their job already by clearing a path for the Berzerker party vans, if shock troops want to eat all that Overwatch and then get shot even more then that's fine by me.
I forgot Noise Marines are 2 attacks a piece. Not sure who wants to charge squads with guns that fire 3 shots per model in overwatch. My experience has been that opponents treat them as bullet magnets and don't assault.
If you are able to field effective lists that feature Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers in the same list, would love to see it. My lists tend to feature larger infantry units, expensive HQs and heavy weapons. Maybe that's why NMs and KBs don't seem to fill the same roles.
BL does give CSMs a lot of merit, though - I've had good results from hordes before people adapted their lists to counter banzai charges, but you get to give them fearlessness and full re-rolls and take some shots whilst Advancing. I can definitely see Somme reenactment working for you, especially if three units each get a different mark and endurance spell. Plus LGBT enables Abaddon to leave a unit unsupervised and still get their rerolls. But I'd probably still want to bring along NMs. Kerrrang!
Reenactment and LGBT? Autocorrect appears to be confusing things.
Understand I am not saying Noise Marines are vastly inferior and it's fine if that's your playstyle. There are some virtues to playing plain CSMs and the perceived advantages of elite units don't always bear out in practice, whereas surrounding 2 Lascannons with 18 ablative wounds works very often. Context makes a huge difference in how they will work in a particular army.
From what I gather, you are playing MSU Noise Marines, which is great, but gets into this whole other issue around maximizing the effectiveness of auras / stratagems. One of the things I like about 20 man CSM squads is I can put Abaddon in the middle of the table and stretch each squad to where they are controlling separate objectives while still benefitting from his aura. It makes a huge difference in their effectiveness ESPECIALLY when you consider alpha strike units, being able to reroll everything on overwatch is a big deal. The additional wounds also mitigates the impact of going second since not every wound takes down the army's effectiveness at such a great rate.
I meant Somme reenactment as in lots of riflemen walking across no man's land to engage a prepared enemy. Like I say, it looks well suited to BL - you've basically got Astartes with the morale ability of Tyranids!
lindsay40k wrote: I meant Somme reenactment as in lots of riflemen walking across no man's land to engage a prepared enemy. Like I say, it looks well suited to BL - you've basically got Astartes with the morale ability of Tyranids!
Ahhh... that makes more sense. Thank you for explaining the reference. There's some hidden benefits to the morale buff that are worth discussing, which I will get into in another thread.
Now how do I get Abaddon's reroll aura on units he is not babysitting?
lindsay40k wrote: LGBT - Let the Galaxy Burn. I'm not letting the acronym get into my autocorrect like capitalised Squad and Havoc have
Abaddon is secretly Anita Sarkeesian confirmed? (Though, to be fair on Abby, his temper isn't that bad)
I understood that reference. Abaddon: "You see when you look at the Imperium everything is chaos, Eldar...chaos, Necrons...yep Chaos. Everything's chaos and you have to point it all out." Actually that sounds more like Word Bearers...never mind.
techsoldaten wrote: Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing.
I am using 20 man CSM squads with bolt guns and 2x Lascannons. Going to compare them with NM squads with 10 men, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2x Blastmasters and a Rhino.
A number of people have cited the idea that NMs / KBs / Cultists / Chosen / Havocs do everything better. My response is kind of, these advantages mean less than you might think.
As far as the shooting advantages NMs get, it's not that significant. A Sonic Blaster is an assault 3 bolt gun. Assuming each squad is at full strength - when the NMs are shooting at 24 inches, they get 24 bolter shots compared to 18 with the CSMs. At 12 inches, they still get 24 shots but the CSMs get 36 with Rapid Fire.
I find what matters is what happens over multiple turns. In practice, few opponents stand around at 24 inches for those Noise Marines to shoot at. They are either advancing to close in for the charge or shooting back to whittle down the squad. Each time you lose a Noise Marine, you are losing 3 shots. Each time you lose a CSM, you are losing 1 shot.
So NMs come on strong but get weaker faster and they are half the size. I hate the feeling this glorious elite unit is about to lose so much of it's potency the turn after it disembarks, which is what happens when I play them. They may have a better position on the board because of the Rhino, but will they be able to hold it?
Compare this with the not-so-humble 20 man CSM squad. Since Rhinos are not an option, they march up the board. Sure, they take some wounds doing this, but they get to fire their Lascannons each turn. An extra 2 Lascannon shots per squad each turn is significant, those multi-damage wounds add up. Sure, they are not firing their bolters, but the NMs are not firing their Sonic Blasters either.
Where a 20 man CSM squad shines is camping objectives, they remain a long range threat while parking themselves just about anywhere on the board. When they have cover / a reroll aura / Prescience / VotLW going for them, removing them from the board becomes very hard. Now think about what happens when there are 3 of those 20 man CSM squads on separate objectives. Sure, it can be done, but it's not trivial.
So, NMs have some other advantages. Sure, they have MotA, they can fight first if they are Emperor's Children, and there's that Slaanesh Strategem for shooting twice. MotA is a boost a NM for the turn before it dies, then the squad is that much weaker. Fighting first is great for squads that are not dedicated shooting specialists, if it comes into play with NMs you are doing it wrong. This would be a great Legion trait for Berzerkers. Shooting twice is great, but you can give CSMs the same stratagem and they would have more shots at 12 inches. So it's not an exclusive advantage.
The game is 5 - 7 turns. If you are playing a game with objectives - where position matters - I see more value in big CSM squads. If you are playing a game where the goal is just to kill as many things as possible on the board - both are good, Emperor's Children NMs might have the edge. The one scenario I have found where Noise Marines are hands-down better is dropping 2 10 man squads with a Kharybdis Assault Claw, they can usually shoot up enough things to mitigate the blow back they take the next turn. Part of this is b/c the KAC is a huge distraction unit, it gets a lot of attention the moment it eats a tank.
For the record, the cost of each CSM squad works out to 312 points / 15 PL. The cost of each NM squad + Rhino works out to 294 points / 15 PL. So they are roughly equivalent. If you think it's easier to compare them without the Rhino at the same points, great, take 13 NMs (15 if you are playing power levels.)
Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.
I just don't see this as viable.
1. The squad can't fit in a rhino. That's not a big deal if the unit is durable or you got enough units falling back that not enough are gonna shoot. With the unit price that's not going to be the case. The less points you got in Cultist screens, the more likely a Deep Strike threat will do its job.
2. Noise Marines are an all-comer for intents and purposes. They have multiple attacks, so getting in melee isn't really an issue for them. You can't be as aggressive as you can with Berserker Marines or able to force tarpits with Plague Marines, but the option is there for weakened squads, where the Noise Marines have more attacks for the points.
3. You aren't getting in Rapid Fire range unless you're Alpha Legion and infiltrating them. That's easily one of the last squads I'd bother infiltrating because you're using Lascannons. Noise Marines need MUCH less help getting into position.
4. So in this general situation, we have Chosen/Havocs that do weapon saturation better. Chosen are only a few more points for an extra A/LD and the ability to spam weapons at a greater amount, which kinda makes them a Noise Marine equivalent in being able to bully smaller units. Havocs are the same price but instead spam Heavy Weapons in a more efficient manner. With the way detachments work now, slots are not that super contested for, which makes this almost a non-issue. So if you're really desperate and clinging for command points, might as well pay a 120 point tax for 30 wounds instead of 195 for 15, which need the actual kitting out for extra points.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: Anyone running plague marines? Im considering 5 with 2 flamers and a combi flamer on the champ running dark raiders so they can get nice and close.
Does anyone have any experience with Renegade Knights, especially dual thermal cannons? They just got upgraded to d6 shots instead of d3 shots per gun. I wish there was a way to give them more support, but sadly you can't target them with prescience or anything.
Virules wrote: Does anyone have any experience with Renegade Knights, especially dual thermal cannons? They just got upgraded to d6 shots instead of d3 shots per gun. I wish there was a way to give them more support, but sadly you can't target them with prescience or anything.
My thoughts on knights i have a dual GC and dual RFBC
- Defo go two weapons, titanic feet is good enough
- They will die sooner than you think, don't get close unless you know you can hack it
- Shooting is probably the best focus, no 5++ in combat and if you are that close you are smite bait
- bubble wrap, its becoming the go-to thing in 8th and it works wonders for chaos as we have access to horrors. For 177pts you can have 3 units of 13 brimstone horrors and 2 maleific lords in a batallion:
3 extra cmd pts, horrors can deny as can lords so thats 5 denies, the horrors are troops for objs and have a nice 4++. Mainly you can conga line your entire deployment zone to netuer the main knight killers which will be deep striking 9" melta type close range weapons and in addition they offer smite protection as they will be the closest models. Cannot emphasise how good this tactic is, i won a fair sized tourney on the weekend on the back of bubble wrapping my fellblade.
I thought Horrors could only deny with 1d6 same as when they cast. So unless your opponent rolls a 5 or less they can't actually deny anything. Am I wrong about this?
No that sounds right to me. But it's still worth taking a few for that instance. I like the idea of pink/blue/brim for my Tsons list but I don't think I will put my guys together until more info from the codex appears. I would hate to put a force together that isn't actually use able at this point.
So I really like AdMech and CSM (Alpha Legion) a lot. I can't decide which army to pull the trigger on and was wondering which has (the arguably) stronger codex since I like each story and aesthetics about the same. Any opinions?
Msolve wrote: So I really like AdMech and CSM (Alpha Legion) a lot. I can't decide which army to pull the trigger on and was wondering which has (the arguably) stronger codex since I like each story and aesthetics about the same. Any opinions?
The absolute top end of AdMech might be better (this is a big "might" because their strength hasn't been thoroughly tested yet and the huge mathematical numbers can potentially get shut down by tactics on the tabletop) but I think more of the Chaos codex is at the "upper end" of power than AdMech. AdMech is very pigeonholed into a Mars Spearhead+screen that focuses on blowing the enemy off the table while CSM can perform admirably with just about any theme.
Agreed. Chaos vs pure admech it's going to go to chaos. Just more options and more personality than ad mech.
Admech + options (IG, Assassins, Sisters, Marines, Inquisition ) vs Chaos is a different story. It's a question of how do you run your armies normally, how is your meta with allies, or are you someone that tries to run a pure army.
Trancefate wrote: If I take obliterator's with mark of chaos tzeentch, do they get ephemeral form? If not, is the keyword there just to limit summoning options?
No they do not, as nothing on their datasheet says they do. Your Mark is largely important because it determines what synergies you can benefit from; for example, your obliterators are <Tzeentch> <Daemons> which means they benefit from auras such as the Changeling's.
lindsay40k wrote: Any particular reason for Brimstones in 13's? Just the points you had spare?
yea but found it works, a big unit will encourage a mass of shooting which will be bad on the ld tests...
small units are still durable with the 4++ and manoverable
Had a game this evening, I took 30 beserkers in 3 squads of 10, 10 raptors, a brass collar deamon prince, mini-kharn, and a helldrake vs Tyrnaids. I was playing as world eaters.
Was a close game but I won in the end. Some things to note that I found interesting.
1. 10 beserkers with chain swords charging 20 genestealers was incredible! They took out 18 genestealers before the steelers got to even swing back. That was nuts.
2. Deamon Princes are nasty! My prince and 4 beserkers just wrecked a flying hive tyrant and didn't even blink. God those things are cool.
3. Mini kharn was a bust, got jumped by a broodlord and never stood a chance. Oh well....
4. Trygon prime + termagaunts with devourers = scary as hell. This little combo killed off a full squad of beserkers before they could even do anything and then next turn killed the entire squad of raptors. I rolled poorly for the raptors charge twice so yeah.
5. I won't underestimate the helldrake again. I took it because it is a cool model. But the speed and firepower of the baleflamer, it was pretty much what finally killed the termagaunts and trygon prime in the end, I took it hoping to distract my opponent but in the end they didn't have enough power to deal with it by the time they got around to it.
All in all great game. I will say that I now agree 100%, the extra attack on charging isn't that big a deal, running as Renegade chapter is probably a better option overall. Advancing + charging is definitely a more useful trait than +1 attack on the charge if your footslogging it, even if your just going to keep your army pure khorne.
Azuza001 wrote: Had a game this evening, I took 30 beserkers in 3 squads of 10, 10 raptors, a brass collar deamon prince, mini-kharn, and a helldrake vs Tyrnaids. I was playing as world eaters.
Was a close game but I won in the end. Some things to note that I found interesting.
1. 10 beserkers with chain swords charging 20 genestealers was incredible! They took out 18 genestealers before the steelers got to even swing back. That was nuts.
2. Deamon Princes are nasty! My prince and 4 beserkers just wrecked a flying hive tyrant and didn't even blink. God those things are cool.
3. Mini kharn was a bust, got jumped by a broodlord and never stood a chance. Oh well....
4. Trygon prime + termagaunts with devourers = scary as hell. This little combo killed off a full squad of beserkers before they could even do anything and then next turn killed the entire squad of raptors. I rolled poorly for the raptors charge twice so yeah.
5. I won't underestimate the helldrake again. I took it because it is a cool model. But the speed and firepower of the baleflamer, it was pretty much what finally killed the termagaunts and trygon prime in the end, I took it hoping to distract my opponent but in the end they didn't have enough power to deal with it by the time they got around to it.
All in all great game. I will say that I now agree 100%, the extra attack on charging isn't that big a deal, running as Renegade chapter is probably a better option overall. Advancing + charging is definitely a more useful trait than +1 attack on the charge if your footslogging it, even if your just going to keep your army pure khorne.
Okay, first of all, is Mini-Kharn a Dark Apostle, an Exalted Champion, or a tooled-up Chaos Lord? Sorry if that's a stupid question.
On your other points:
1) Why did the Nids player not use 2 CP to interrupt combat and swing with the Stealers after the first swing by the Zerkers? That's what always seems to happen to my Berzerkers, which is why I'm not fully understanding the hype behind them. They are powerful, but ultimately so easy to gimp. Or are you supposed to get both sets of attacks before the opponent is allowed to possibly interrupt combat?
2) What weapon did the Prince have? I'm assuming double talons, but maybe you went with the sword option? Also, did the Brass Collar do any work at all, or do you think you'd have been okay with the Talisman of Burning Blood?
3) Sorry to hear that your character didn't get to do anything. That always sucks, especially if you're trying to figure out how to use said character well.
4) I can understand completely how nasty a Trygon Prime can be. They can get Termagants, Hormagaunts, or even Genestealers into your backfield very quickly and reliably. For Chaos, I guess this is where cultist bubble wrap comes in handy, no?
5) I have yet to use a Hellturkey in 8th. I wasn't sold on them since even though the baleflamer is powerful that d6 shots can bite you if you roll a 1. Seeing this report I might just have to give mine a try and see what happens.
I definitely agree that if you're footslogging you're better off with Renegades, but I would think that in general running Berzerkers in Rhinos is a better option anyways. Gets them where they are going faster and more safely.
techsoldaten wrote: Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing...
Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.
I just don't see this as viable.
1. The squad can't fit in a rhino. That's not a big deal if the unit is durable or you got enough units falling back that not enough are gonna shoot. With the unit price that's not going to be the case. The less points you got in Cultist screens, the more likely a Deep Strike threat will do its job.
2. Noise Marines are an all-comer for intents and purposes. They have multiple attacks, so getting in melee isn't really an issue for them. You can't be as aggressive as you can with Berserker Marines or able to force tarpits with Plague Marines, but the option is there for weakened squads, where the Noise Marines have more attacks for the points.
3. You aren't getting in Rapid Fire range unless you're Alpha Legion and infiltrating them. That's easily one of the last squads I'd bother infiltrating because you're using Lascannons. Noise Marines need MUCH less help getting into position.
4. So in this general situation, we have Chosen/Havocs that do weapon saturation better. Chosen are only a few more points for an extra A/LD and the ability to spam weapons at a greater amount, which kinda makes them a Noise Marine equivalent in being able to bully smaller units. Havocs are the same price but instead spam Heavy Weapons in a more efficient manner. With the way detachments work now, slots are not that super contested for, which makes this almost a non-issue. So if you're really desperate and clinging for command points, might as well pay a 120 point tax for 30 wounds instead of 195 for 15, which need the actual kitting out for extra points.
Yeah, but I'm finding some of those things don't matter as much as some people think they do.
1) The real benefits I get from Rhinos is moving 12 inches on the first turn and protecting the occupants. I can deal with losing 2 - 4 CSM marching up the board. If I really want that extra movement, I can advance and fire.
2) My Noise Marines almost never get into close combat. They jump out of a Rhino, they shoot things up, then they get shot up. With infantry, the extra wounds seem to mean more than more than extra attacks.
3) I am finding moving into position for rapid fire matters less with large squads. Sure, it would be nice to be right in someone's face, but I have played several games where my opponent is moving up the board to get my CSMs off objectives. I mean, it's a lot of models, sometimes I have one squad covering multiple objectives.
4) Not sure I agree with the point about Chosen and Havocs. I wanted to write them up separately, since I am a lot more familiar with Noise Marines.
@Zergsmasher - I think the idea with Berzerkers is a straight 6A or 4A+cs would have been completely over the top, in a way I quite like that their second round of attacks can be interrupted as this forces the enemy to burn 2CP whenever we engage a unit that can put up a fight, and adds to threat overload when we have multiple key melees.
Say, folks, how are people finding Greater Daemons? I'm refurbing my old Bloodthirster, but found him underwhelming so far - his main accomplishment to date has been losing me a game when Genestealers scored Kingslayer against him, and he's never going to get Summoned. I'm making a KoS, they seem like a pretty good idea to have to hand when Summoningnis definitely on the cards, especially for Word Bearers. That said, GUO is possibly better suited to the role, given that the requirement for a stationary character means that Summoning is mostly something that gets done from a secure position - be it a home objective, firing line, or a deep insertion force that's held on for a turn or two.
techsoldaten wrote: Have been swapping 10 man Noise Marine squads for 20 man CSM squads in my lists. There are some differences in playstyle worth discussing...
Also for the record, I play Black Legion, and understand this would all be "better" if I was playing Alpha Legion. But Alpha Legion doesn't have Abaddon, and his reroll aura makes CSMs much better than they are otherwise - especially when we are talking about Lascannons. Also, you tend to have some wounds to spare in armies with 60+ CSMs, the +1 save is not as important.
I just don't see this as viable.
1. The squad can't fit in a rhino. That's not a big deal if the unit is durable or you got enough units falling back that not enough are gonna shoot. With the unit price that's not going to be the case. The less points you got in Cultist screens, the more likely a Deep Strike threat will do its job.
2. Noise Marines are an all-comer for intents and purposes. They have multiple attacks, so getting in melee isn't really an issue for them. You can't be as aggressive as you can with Berserker Marines or able to force tarpits with Plague Marines, but the option is there for weakened squads, where the Noise Marines have more attacks for the points.
3. You aren't getting in Rapid Fire range unless you're Alpha Legion and infiltrating them. That's easily one of the last squads I'd bother infiltrating because you're using Lascannons. Noise Marines need MUCH less help getting into position.
4. So in this general situation, we have Chosen/Havocs that do weapon saturation better. Chosen are only a few more points for an extra A/LD and the ability to spam weapons at a greater amount, which kinda makes them a Noise Marine equivalent in being able to bully smaller units. Havocs are the same price but instead spam Heavy Weapons in a more efficient manner. With the way detachments work now, slots are not that super contested for, which makes this almost a non-issue. So if you're really desperate and clinging for command points, might as well pay a 120 point tax for 30 wounds instead of 195 for 15, which need the actual kitting out for extra points.
Yeah, but I'm finding some of those things don't matter as much as some people think they do.
1) The real benefits I get from Rhinos is moving 12 inches on the first turn and protecting the occupants. I can deal with losing 2 - 4 CSM marching up the board. If I really want that extra movement, I can advance and fire.
2) My Noise Marines almost never get into close combat. They jump out of a Rhino, they shoot things up, then they get shot up. With infantry, the extra wounds seem to mean more than more than extra attacks.
3) I am finding moving into position for rapid fire matters less with large squads. Sure, it would be nice to be right in someone's face, but I have played several games where my opponent is moving up the board to get my CSMs off objectives. I mean, it's a lot of models, sometimes I have one squad covering multiple objectives.
4) Not sure I agree with the point about Chosen and Havocs. I wanted to write them up separately, since I am a lot more familiar with Noise Marines.
1. You're going to lose more than that. They have to kill just enough to force a bad Battleshock test. With Word Bearers that is less an issue but it isn't worth the larger squad regardless. You're also advancing and firing with maybe 10 Bolters shots at the BS4+ while not utilising the Lascannons you're paying 300 points for. For the points, that's not worth a turn of no firing.
2. However the Noise Marines get closer safer in the rhino, and shoot and then charge something that'll be forced to fall back so they can be shot at. Entirely worth it.
3. They don't have to move that much. Killing a Marine isn't exactly a hard task at range or melee. If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% to charge, you're basically at half risk for the unit to be nullified because they NEED to fall back. You'll need bubble wrap, which is hard to pay for when you got multiples of these squads you're promoting.
4. I use them a lot. So I know.
It's one thing if they let you purchase the weapon for every 5 dudes, but you don't. At least a 20 man squad with 5 Lascannons would be entertaining.
Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.
Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.
Ah, okay. So instead of getting 24-30 shots at a 4+ (10-man Noise Marine squad, depending on how many Blastmasters you got) you get 16-20 shots at 4+ (depending on how many Lascannons you got).
1. You're going to lose more than that. They have to kill just enough to force a bad Battleshock test. With Word Bearers that is less an issue but it isn't worth the larger squad regardless. You're also advancing and firing with maybe 10 Bolters shots at the BS4+ while not utilising the Lascannons you're paying 300 points for. For the points, that's not worth a turn of no firing. 2. However the Noise Marines get closer safer in the rhino, and shoot and then charge something that'll be forced to fall back so they can be shot at. Entirely worth it. 3. They don't have to move that much. Killing a Marine isn't exactly a hard task at range or melee. If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% to charge, you're basically at half risk for the unit to be nullified because they NEED to fall back. You'll need bubble wrap, which is hard to pay for when you got multiples of these squads you're promoting. 4. I use them a lot. So I know.
It's one thing if they let you purchase the weapon for every 5 dudes, but you don't. At least a 20 man squad with 5 Lascannons would be entertaining.
Amusing reply. I've been using 3x 20 man CSM squads the last 4 games I played. So let me speak from experience.
1) Battleshock test.... I think you mean morale. With Ld 10 I have not lost a single marine to morale.
1.1) "Not utilizing the Lascannons" You can fire heavy weapons while moving this edition with a -1 to hit modifier. The way to avoid that is putting the Lascannon in the front of your squad, moving everything but the lascannon, and then catching up, maybe on the third turn.
2) "Entirely worth it." Were 40k a 1 - 2 round game, I might not be questioning their use.
3) With regards to not having to move that much, you are making my point for me.
3.5) I have no clue what this imaginative rant is supposed to mean. "If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% chance to charge..." I assume you were talking about deep striking. That's not 48%, there is a thing called overwatch, and charging 20 MEQ is not smart for most things that can deep strike. Unless the charging squad is armed with French Ticklers, a fall back move is about as likely as Noise Marines surviving a couple rounds of combat.
4) That's lovely you use other squads. Many of us do. Thank you for sharing.
Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.
In practice, I lose maybe 2 CSMs per turn to shooting per squad. It's not hard to make that Leadership reroll.
Advancing and firing is better than rerolling a morale check. I am pretty sure it's better than the -1 to hit Alpha Legion trait, in terms of the total models one might lose from the board in most cases.
Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.
Ah, okay. So instead of getting 24-30 shots at a 4+ (10-man Noise Marine squad, depending on how many Blastmasters you got) you get 16-20 shots at 4+ (depending on how many Lascannons you got).
So... A lot less effective.
Assume you have 8 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters in that 10 man unit of Noise Marines. Count the number of shots you get a 6 wounds (not counting MotA). Compare that to the number of shots a 20 man CSM squad has after taking 6 wounds.
The Noise Marines may get a great round of shooting the turn they disembark from their Rhino. Most competent opponents know to shoot them afterwards, which often results in those 10 MEQ going off the table.
OTOH, a large blob of CSMs that has taken 6 wounds becomes as effective in terms of shots as that same Noise Marine squad, but it has an extra 10 wounds to play with. It's far more effective in Rapid Fire range.
Given the game happens over a number of turns, the CSMs can be considered more effective.
Azuza001 wrote: Had a game this evening, I took 30 beserkers in 3 squads of 10, 10 raptors, a brass collar deamon prince, mini-kharn, and a helldrake vs Tyrnaids. I was playing as world eaters.
Was a close game but I won in the end. Some things to note that I found interesting.
1. 10 beserkers with chain swords charging 20 genestealers was incredible! They took out 18 genestealers before the steelers got to even swing back. That was nuts.
2. Deamon Princes are nasty! My prince and 4 beserkers just wrecked a flying hive tyrant and didn't even blink. God those things are cool.
3. Mini kharn was a bust, got jumped by a broodlord and never stood a chance. Oh well....
4. Trygon prime + termagaunts with devourers = scary as hell. This little combo killed off a full squad of beserkers before they could even do anything and then next turn killed the entire squad of raptors. I rolled poorly for the raptors charge twice so yeah.
5. I won't underestimate the helldrake again. I took it because it is a cool model. But the speed and firepower of the baleflamer, it was pretty much what finally killed the termagaunts and trygon prime in the end, I took it hoping to distract my opponent but in the end they didn't have enough power to deal with it by the time they got around to it.
All in all great game. I will say that I now agree 100%, the extra attack on charging isn't that big a deal, running as Renegade chapter is probably a better option overall. Advancing + charging is definitely a more useful trait than +1 attack on the charge if your footslogging it, even if your just going to keep your army pure khorne.
Okay, first of all, is Mini-Kharn a Dark Apostle, an Exalted Champion, or a tooled-up Chaos Lord? Sorry if that's a stupid question.
On your other points:
1) Why did the Nids player not use 2 CP to interrupt combat and swing with the Stealers after the first swing by the Zerkers? That's what always seems to happen to my Berzerkers, which is why I'm not fully understanding the hype behind them. They are powerful, but ultimately so easy to gimp. Or are you supposed to get both sets of attacks before the opponent is allowed to possibly interrupt combat?
2) What weapon did the Prince have? I'm assuming double talons, but maybe you went with the sword option? Also, did the Brass Collar do any work at all, or do you think you'd have been okay with the Talisman of Burning Blood?
3) Sorry to hear that your character didn't get to do anything. That always sucks, especially if you're trying to figure out how to use said character well.
4) I can understand completely how nasty a Trygon Prime can be. They can get Termagants, Hormagaunts, or even Genestealers into your backfield very quickly and reliably. For Chaos, I guess this is where cultist bubble wrap comes in handy, no?
5) I have yet to use a Hellturkey in 8th. I wasn't sold on them since even though the baleflamer is powerful that d6 shots can bite you if you roll a 1. Seeing this report I might just have to give mine a try and see what happens.
I definitely agree that if you're footslogging you're better off with Renegades, but I would think that in general running Berzerkers in Rhinos is a better option anyways. Gets them where they are going faster and more safely.
Mini kharn was a chaos lord with axe of Blind Fury.
1. They did not interrupt because they interrupted with their hive tyrant. I was lucky and got 3 charges off at the same time, 1 beserker squad vs steelers, 1 squad with chain axes vs hive tyrant, and Deamon Prince vs hive tyrant. The tyrant interrupted and took out most of the squad of beserkers leaving 4 left from the squad to swing back, but left my other beserkers free to wipe the genestealers.
2. Prince did dual talons. It's really the only way to run those guys in my opinion. Brass color worked every time, and did 2 wounds to the broodlord it was blocking. So yeah, I'm a fan of it. After the 2nd time the broodlord just stopped trying to cast because they couldn't afford another perils.
4. My army was full mobile, no "gunlines" to speak of. Heck my bale flamer on "Kentucky" (my helldrakes name) was the longest ranged weapon I had, and he was tied up the first turn the trygon prime popped up so was not in a position to deal with the termagaunts. After they wiped the raptors and one squad of beserkers I changed tactics and made a straight line for them, the flamer did the rest. I really thought the raptors would be able to take them out as a counter deploy but bad rolls and a charge roll of 2 left too many to fire back. Live and learn lol.
5. Yeah, original plan was a distraction that my opponent ignored. In the end though that left it free to play with whatever it wanted. Opponent won't make that mistake again lol.
1. You're going to lose more than that. They have to kill just enough to force a bad Battleshock test. With Word Bearers that is less an issue but it isn't worth the larger squad regardless. You're also advancing and firing with maybe 10 Bolters shots at the BS4+ while not utilising the Lascannons you're paying 300 points for. For the points, that's not worth a turn of no firing.
2. However the Noise Marines get closer safer in the rhino, and shoot and then charge something that'll be forced to fall back so they can be shot at. Entirely worth it.
3. They don't have to move that much. Killing a Marine isn't exactly a hard task at range or melee. If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% to charge, you're basically at half risk for the unit to be nullified because they NEED to fall back. You'll need bubble wrap, which is hard to pay for when you got multiples of these squads you're promoting.
4. I use them a lot. So I know.
It's one thing if they let you purchase the weapon for every 5 dudes, but you don't. At least a 20 man squad with 5 Lascannons would be entertaining.
Amusing reply. I've been using 3x 20 man CSM squads the last 4 games I played. So let me speak from experience.
1) Battleshock test.... I think you mean morale. With Ld 10 I have not lost a single marine to morale.
1.1) "Not utilizing the Lascannons" You can fire heavy weapons while moving this edition with a -1 to hit modifier. The way to avoid that is putting the Lascannon in the front of your squad, moving everything but the lascannon, and then catching up, maybe on the third turn.
2) "Entirely worth it." Were 40k a 1 - 2 round game, I might not be questioning their use.
3) With regards to not having to move that much, you are making my point for me.
3.5) I have no clue what this imaginative rant is supposed to mean. "If someone drops in for melee and has a 48% chance to charge..." I assume you were talking about deep striking. That's not 48%, there is a thing called overwatch, and charging 20 MEQ is not smart for most things that can deep strike. Unless the charging squad is armed with French Ticklers, a fall back move is about as likely as Noise Marines surviving a couple rounds of combat.
4) That's lovely you use other squads. Many of us do. Thank you for sharing.
Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.
In practice, I lose maybe 2 CSMs per turn to shooting per squad. It's not hard to make that Leadership reroll.
Advancing and firing is better than rerolling a morale check. I am pretty sure it's better than the -1 to hit Alpha Legion trait, in terms of the total models one might lose from the board in most cases.
Black Legion trait. It isn't stellar but it exists. Also note it gives a +1LD for everyone but in this case with 20 man squads I'm thinking the straight reroll from Word Bearers would be better, not to mention how handy the Warlord Trait would be for those larger groups so you can do easier squeezing in and hiding the character.
Ah, okay. So instead of getting 24-30 shots at a 4+ (10-man Noise Marine squad, depending on how many Blastmasters you got) you get 16-20 shots at 4+ (depending on how many Lascannons you got).
So... A lot less effective.
Assume you have 8 sonic blasters and 2 blastmasters in that 10 man unit of Noise Marines. Count the number of shots you get a 6 wounds (not counting MotA). Compare that to the number of shots a 20 man CSM squad has after taking 6 wounds.
The Noise Marines may get a great round of shooting the turn they disembark from their Rhino. Most competent opponents know to shoot them afterwards, which often results in those 10 MEQ going off the table.
OTOH, a large blob of CSMs that has taken 6 wounds becomes as effective in terms of shots as that same Noise Marine squad, but it has an extra 10 wounds to play with. It's far more effective in Rapid Fire range.
Given the game happens over a number of turns, the CSMs can be considered more effective.
I'm speaking as a competitive player warning newer players why this strategy is bad.
1. It's Battleshock from AoS basically. I prefer it as a shorthand for Morale Tests. Much quicker to type.
Also I don't know where you're getting Ld10 from, but it isn't hard losing models to it. Necron players aren't doing Warrior squads over 10-15 for a reason and they're LD10.
Also if you read, I said you don't get the Lascannons if you advance. For a 300 point unit, you can't afford to advance for a single turn and lose Lascannon usage because you need the rest of the unit in range for the Bolters that'll never fire relevantly.
2. It isn't so I don't know what your point is?
3. I'm saying they can't move much. You have a 300 point unit that can't get anywhere. It's 2 Lascannons and 18 Bolters (19 if you spring for a Combi-Bolter). Maybe 5-10 of those will hit anything, and then the rest sit there. All it takes is one melee unit to put it out of commission. Nobody is afraid of a 20 man Marine squad in melee! You'll have to be forced to fall back because you need those Lascannons firing, and they aren't gonna overwhelm anybody. It's unwieldy and bad.
4. Anybody Deep Striking for melee is going to have a way to reroll unless they like to live dangerously, which is then a 48% (look at Asterion, Shrike, and Black Templars as Loyalist examples, Raptors w/ Khorne Icons and infiltrated Icon Berserker Marines for Chaos, there's a few good examples), and the Overwatch is not dangerous. 36 Bolter shots in Overwatch is one dead Marine. One. The Lascannons inflict less than 0.2 deaths. So if your opponent is incapable of math, yeah there's Overwatch. There's also not caring about Overwatch. The latter is what you're going for, definitely.
Also Alpha Legion has the better survivability trait. Morale checks don't matter if you don't have to make them. With lower squad numbers that's not a worry for Alpha Legion. I have no idea why you'd ever suggest that, ever. Black Legion has easily the worst trait in the book and are the equivalent of Iron Hands for the Loyalists, except you get access to what is actually a pretty great character. Still not worth bothering with though.
You're also proposing the squad in your scenario is ever in Rapid Fire range. It won't be because it can't move anywhere efficiently.
Not meaning to jump in and upset anyone but slayer fan is right. The ONLY way I would run 20 man squads would be using power level (because 5 of them are basically free at that point) and with plasma guns or melta guns, no heavy weapons. And even then I would only take it for the laughs in a friendly game if I am trying to mess with my opponent and take something random.
Chaos marines are not bad, it's just they get outshined by other things which can be used as an advantage. If you have 20 marines and 10 havocs behind them I am shooting the havocs first. Marines are not scarry enough to warrant a first turn shoot-and-wipe but 20 marines in rapid range can do some damage.
So… you can only play Tide of Traitors if you have a Chaos Space Marines detachment, for instance Khârn leading three squads of Emperor's Children. If you do play it, then you can play it on Cultists belonging to the Death Guard, who apparently are not Chaos Slace Marines.
This is the very first subfaction Codex, and confidence in 'simpler & more intuitive' feels like it's giving way to suspension of common sense
One thing worth mentioning in all this talk of chaos space marine squad sizes, is that one 20 man squad shoehorned into a list is a lot less effective than 60 marines with proper morale and re-roll support.
4 razorbacks with Roboute re-rolls, in a best case scenario where they don't have to move to get into range, and the marines don't have cover, will kill about 19 marines. It could just be the lists than i'm running, but i think 30 is probably on the high end of marines killed in a realistic turn of shooting, since you also need to have things for heavy infantry and tanks in an all comers list. And, depending on what else is in the list with the 60 marines, you might not be able to throw that many shots into the 60 if there are also things like havocs or noise marines around. So i definitely think that at some point the critical mass of marines starts force multiplying their usefulness, especially if you have ways to add to their durability through legion traits, or their morale through Abaddon, if that makes sense.
So, although I agree that spamming 60 marines for over 900 points probably isn't the best way to play CSM (especially when cultists exist), I am also not surprised that some people are having success with them, especially in local meta situations outside of very large tournament scenes, which the average local game store / pick up game player really isn't worried about.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm speaking as a competitive player warning newer players why this strategy is bad.
1. It's Battleshock from AoS basically. I prefer it as a shorthand for Morale Tests. Much quicker to type.
Also I don't know where you're getting Ld10 from, but it isn't hard losing models to it. Necron players aren't doing Warrior squads over 10-15 for a reason and they're LD10.
Also if you read, I said you don't get the Lascannons if you advance. For a 300 point unit, you can't afford to advance for a single turn and lose Lascannon usage because you need the rest of the unit in range for the Bolters that'll never fire relevantly.
2. It isn't so I don't know what your point is?
3. I'm saying they can't move much. You have a 300 point unit that can't get anywhere. It's 2 Lascannons and 18 Bolters (19 if you spring for a Combi-Bolter). Maybe 5-10 of those will hit anything, and then the rest sit there. All it takes is one melee unit to put it out of commission. Nobody is afraid of a 20 man Marine squad in melee! You'll have to be forced to fall back because you need those Lascannons firing, and they aren't gonna overwhelm anybody. It's unwieldy and bad.
4. Anybody Deep Striking for melee is going to have a way to reroll unless they like to live dangerously, which is then a 48% (look at Asterion, Shrike, and Black Templars as Loyalist examples, Raptors w/ Khorne Icons and infiltrated Icon Berserker Marines for Chaos, there's a few good examples), and the Overwatch is not dangerous. 36 Bolter shots in Overwatch is one dead Marine. One. The Lascannons inflict less than 0.2 deaths. So if your opponent is incapable of math, yeah there's Overwatch. There's also not caring about Overwatch. The latter is what you're going for, definitely.
Also Alpha Legion has the better survivability trait. Morale checks don't matter if you don't have to make them. With lower squad numbers that's not a worry for Alpha Legion. I have no idea why you'd ever suggest that, ever. Black Legion has easily the worst trait in the book and are the equivalent of Iron Hands for the Loyalists, except you get access to what is actually a pretty great character. Still not worth bothering with though.
You're also proposing the squad in your scenario is ever in Rapid Fire range. It won't be because it can't move anywhere efficiently.
Yeah, I might have overstated a couple of points. Happy to clarify.
Since you are a competitive player, I ask you to remember the original comparison from earlier in the thread: a 10x man NM squad vs a 20x man BLCSM squad. I'm sure you have some other ideas in mind, but I have been arguing this selection.
1) You're right, it's Ld9 on BLCSM squads. i sometimes get Ld10 when they have a Dark Apostle near them.
1.1) Then don't advance, or only advance with one squad. I do fine marching across the table. Advancing and shooting is a nice to have that doesn't get used each turn.
2) My point is Noise Marines have less wounds and the game does not stop the round they get out of a Rhino. What I think you are arguing is the added mobility the NMs gain from Rhino gives them some advantage and I am saying that rarely works out in practice.
In general, my NMs are disembarking turn 2 because a) something is in range and b) I don't want the Rhino destroyed and the occupants shot up before they get a chance to shoot. So the Rhino has moved at 18 inches (12 inch movement + advance) and the Noise Marines have moved another 9 (3 inch disembark + 6 inch movement.)
That's 15 inches further than the CSMs could move by turn 2 without advancing. But now the Noise Marines are in 24 inches of the opponent, without a screen, and without an HQ with an aura. They are going to have a great turn of shooting, then take a lot of wounds because they are a priority target.
Before I go on, do you want to explain what you are doing to keep that from happening? Because being out in front has generally not worked for me in many games. I was finding the only reason I was using the Rhinos was to shield NMs from first-turn shooting and mobility didn't mean much.
3) Those 300 point CSM squads move far enough to take objectives, which is typically where I want them.
4) Sure. Forgetting the reroll shenanigans are once per turn for most armies, let's say whoever is deep striking makes it. Go ahead and charge a 20 man BLCSM squad standing next to Abaddon & an Exalted Champion. Make sure you set up to do at least 15 wounds against MEQ because Overwatch with rerolls + DttFE is a lot more potent than you claim, close combat is lethal, and Abaddon is going to charge the next turn.
With regards to Alpha Legion, sure, they take 16% fewer hits because of the Legion Trait. That's quite an advantage.
The reason people play Black Legion is to reroll all misses to hit because of Abaddon. I have not taken the time to do much math around this but I am happy with the offensive bonuses.
What kills the Noise Marines in a Rhino is Abaddon. It's very hard for NMs to benefit from him when they are in a Rhino, and they suffer the same problems you describe when they are not. If you deploy Abaddon with the rest of your army, he's going to be 15 inches behind the Noise Marines by turn 2. If you deploy him from Deep Strike, he won't be buffing your army turn one and there's a very good chance he will be in the open by turn 3 once the NMs have gone down.
Maybe it's a Black Legion thing or a matched play thing, but I don't see how standing up a unit with half the wounds way in front of the rest of your army is better than a slower moving force with double the wounds.
Speaking as someone who is usually an Alpha Legion shooty CSM player, I find that my CSM squads tend to not move much after they get out of the Rhino. They get where they are going, and they don't leave. Or they do not go very far. If this is what I want a unit to do, Noise Marines. Every time. Plenty of shooty firepower, that does not need to be in rapid fire range. If it is not, if I want a unit that is going to look big, and menacing, and draw fire on merits of "these guys need to get off that objective," then 20 CSM will do the job. The two units fill very different roles. One is fire support, the other is a big, scary bullet sponge. Or a mass melee unit.
I do not know why you would take lascannons in a basic CSM squad in the first place, so if someone could explain that bit of silliness to me, I would appreciate it.
lcfr wrote: Anyone out there doing really Cultist heavy horde armies? How many Cultists are too many?
I like them for line breaking. Theres a strategem you can use to just pick em up and plop em "Over there" at games end.
I will tell you what I tell everyone else: "Never enough cultists." 4 pts a model in any loadout. Squads of up to 40. You can bring battalion detachments for 260 pts. Chaos blurs the line between elite and horde in every game because it has this unit. Need to stall some gaunts. Cultists. Need to hold a rear line objective. Cultists. Need to look bigger than I am. Cultists. Need to fill out a detachment. Cultists.
If I ever say I have too many cultists, it will be because I used only Cultists in a 2000 point game. The sad fact is that Cultists are valuable horde models, but they lack the punishing strength potential that you find in the rest of the codex. So take as many as you like, and always be looking for more.
Edit: And yes, suddenly dropping on a random objective has its perks.
Taking Lascannons in CSM squads is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Your heavy weapon is now protected by 5-9 wounds instead of 1-2 in the case of a Havoc squad.
I think big units of CSM is perfectly viable, especially as Black Legion because of their trait and stratagem. Don't forget they have ObSec that NMs don't get unless they are in an EC detachment.
saint_red wrote: Taking Lascannons in CSM squads is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Your heavy weapon is now protected by 5-9 wounds instead of 1-2 in the case of a Havoc squad.
I think big units of CSM is perfectly viable, especially as Black Legion because of their trait and stratagem. Don't forget they have ObSec that NMs don't get unless they are in an EC detachment.
24 points more than plasma guns in a squad with two heavy/special weapons, and they get bogged down by the heavy guns. And Havoc Squads should really run in pairs anyways(2 lascannons, and 2 heavy bolters each) to split the pressure. How shooting works this edition means everything is shooting where it is supposed to, and it adjusts for an all comers list by being more prepared for infantry heavy lists.
Additionally, triple Predator Annihilators, while expensive, only cost 10 points per unit more than the 10 man squad with 2 lascannons, has 4 lascannons each, and has the option to wound Knights on 2+ with their stratagem. The only edge a CSM squad would have is mobility, and not degrading, which is part of why you take three of them.
Obliterators have a better average against most units than two lascannons can give a 10 man squad like that as well. Base 12 shots. No penalty for moving. Max potential damage of 36 against the 10 man squad's 28. And only 15 points more.
Maybe you are right. Maybe there is a place for it. I just cannot see one in my lists.
As for twenty man CSM blobs being viable, these I can see myself running. Just under 300 points for a relatively expendable unit charging your opponent's center is a very viable thing.
Havocs are basically CSM with more options but because they are not troops their points per command point is worse and they don't have ObSec. They're still a great unit but CSM have their role.
Predators are good too but really suffer from degradation. While not totally relevant, the Killshot stratagem sucks because you won't get to use it more than once against any competent player.
Oblits are extremely good, no issues there. Problem is that again, they are not troops.
I run my CSM is a unit of 10 with a heavy bolter and missile launcher. Double plasma works well too and I would suggest that for Black Legion. They are used to contest and sit on objectives and they do it damn well. I use the Renegades legion trait and that gives them a bit of extra mobility to shift the enemy off objectives too.
I'm open to the CSM horde and to CSM Lascannons (especially as a PL player who pays for them no matter what), but they don't work together for me. If you're doing the Abaddon horde, you probably benefit more from Plasma that isn't wasted when you Advance?
I can see the fearless sixty working as a ploy that people aren't expecting to have to deal with. I don't buy the criticism that you leave Abby behind, with units of 20 daisy-chaining is not difficult, plus with careful positioning Abby himself can follow them up to 5" and still be heard by the gunners he's directing, and you practically have to completely pile in to the enemy DZ to get out of fearless range.
I'd certainly be interested in playing against such an army. I suspect the limited mobility of the three 20s would make it feasible to deal with with the sort of stuff I usually bring to all-comers.
lindsay40k wrote: So… you can only play Tide of Traitors if you have a Chaos Space Marines detachment, for instance Khârn leading three squads of Emperor's Children. If you do play it, then you can play it on Cultists belonging to the Death Guard, who apparently are not Chaos Slace Marines.
This is the very first subfaction Codex, and confidence in 'simpler & more intuitive' feels like it's giving way to suspension of common sense
It does say in the preface section for all the stratagems in the CSM codex that the Death Guard and Thousand Suns don't get them due to having their own books. The FAQ just clarified that stratagems are unlocked based on having a detachment of the corresponding faction in the army and that cross-faction stratagems will work as long as the target shares the correct targeting keyword.
How are you guys using a dark apostle? Do you hide him behind a couple of cultist hordes? Or do you pop him in a rhino with a unit and drive up the board? Also if doing the drive up the board would it be worth combining with a exalted champion to re roll to hit and wound on a unit?
Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion and 2x 9 Zerkers in a Kharybdis. Used it to Incredible results yesterday at my local RTT. 3-0, tabling every opponent by turn 3.
However, Rhinos would work well enough as a substitute. I've faced a few that were able to do just that, and while it's far less of an Alpha Strike, it's powerful all the same.
Cheers all im considering going
Dark Apostle Plasma pistol Cursed Crozius
Exalted Champion Power Axe Combi Melta
8 Possessed Mark of Khorne
All in a party bus (rhino)
Rest of the list being
10 csm mon Icon of Chaos Glory 7 bolters 2 plasma guns combi Plasma power fist
10 Csm Icon of Chaos Glory 7 BP/CS 2 melta guns combi melta power fist
5 csm 3 Bolters Plasma Pistol Power fist Plasma gun
5 Chosen 4 Plasma Guns combi plasma
3 x Chaos Rhinos.
That atleast will be the core of my list.
Cephalobeard wrote: CSM kind of suck in 8th. I'd highly recommend cultists instead, if you have that option.
I do but it feels wrong to take cultists as my only troops in a csm army
Well, if it helps:
- we are supposed to be 10,000 year veterans and we've spent that (accelerated) time in a Petri dish full of empyrean forces and Cannon-fodder waiting to be press-ganged or converted, if most of our soldiers are Chosen or Elite Cult or Possessed then that's because they've survived plenty of battles by making the pawns go first;
- corpse-lover tactical squads have two weapon specialists because that fool Guilliman said so, there's no Codex Astartes telling us to take our plasma tactical and heavy support Squads that worked perfectly well in the Heresy and split them off
- there's nothing saying you can't take one or two Heretac squads but adding a load of Cultists will definitely help, especially if you face an opponent with some throwaway Scions who can nuke your Rhinos turn one and leave your Zerks to foot-slog it at a gunline
Cephalobeard wrote: CSM kind of suck in 8th. I'd highly recommend cultists instead, if you have that option.
I do but it feels wrong to take cultists as my only troops in a csm army
Well, if it helps:
- we are supposed to be 10,000 year veterans and we've spent that (accelerated) time in a Petri dish full of empyrean forces and Cannon-fodder waiting to be press-ganged or converted, if most of our soldiers are Chosen or Elite Cult or Possessed then that's because they've survived plenty of battles by making the pawns go first;
- corpse-lover tactical squads have two weapon specialists because that fool Guilliman said so, there's no Codex Astartes telling us to take our plasma tactical and heavy support Squads that worked perfectly well in the Heresy and split them off
- there's nothing saying you can't take one or two Heretac squads but adding a load of Cultists will definitely help, especially if you face an opponent with some throwaway Scions who can nuke your Rhinos turn one and leave your Zerks to foot-slog it at a gunline
The first point is a huge one, for me.
As Alpha Legion, my cultists I don't view as a part of my Legion. They're menials I've tricked or recruited to follow orders, whether that one it or not. My Berzerkers, Noise Marines, etc are all my hyper specialized, efficient veterans of subterfuge and espionage.
Also, from a competitive standpoint, it's infinitely more efficient. Lol
BillyN831 wrote: In a rhino with 9 Khorne Berserkers. My other rhino has an exalted champion with 9 Khorne Berserkers.
This is what i'm doing currently. Having a prince in the back to warptime the rhino with the apostle towards the enemy is a huge help. Speaking as Alpha Legion, i also like to drop a blob of 30 melee cultists on my enemy, once the apostle and the champion have made it into range. Note that this tactic depends on giving the enemy something important to shoot - preferably something that isn't your rhinos.
@Chephalobeard - exactly. Until recently, BL had Chosen and Terminators as Troops, I thought it was a bit of a fluff leap to make them CSM specialists tbh (especially with no proper Dark Apothecary to recruit them). NL had Raptors for Troops, IW had Obliterators (!), and we know about WBs - none of the Legions have a pressing need to field a Heretac backbone to look right.
That leaves Renegades, whom I'm sure after centuries of protecting non-super humans will generally be agreeable to the idea of letting them be the ones getting bored standing on objective and getting shot leading the advance.
lindsay40k wrote: @Chephalobeard - exactly. Until recently, BL had Chosen and Terminators as Troops, I thought it was a bit of a fluff leap to make them CSM specialists tbh (especially with no proper Dark Apothecary to recruit them). NL had Raptors for Troops, IW had Obliterators (!), and we know about WBs - none of the Legions have a pressing need to field a Heretac backbone to look right.
That leaves Renegades, whom I'm sure after centuries of protecting non-super humans will generally be agreeable to the idea of letting them be the ones getting bored standing on objective and getting shot leading the advance.
I think this is the major downfall of the codex outside a couple of internal balance issues. The specific units as troops were removed from what was agreed as one of the best parts of Traitor Legions, but only the God followers get any special treatment now. Entirely unfair. Especially when regular Marines are garbage.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm speaking as a competitive player warning newer players why this strategy is bad.
1. It's Battleshock from AoS basically. I prefer it as a shorthand for Morale Tests. Much quicker to type.
Also I don't know where you're getting Ld10 from, but it isn't hard losing models to it. Necron players aren't doing Warrior squads over 10-15 for a reason and they're LD10.
Also if you read, I said you don't get the Lascannons if you advance. For a 300 point unit, you can't afford to advance for a single turn and lose Lascannon usage because you need the rest of the unit in range for the Bolters that'll never fire relevantly.
2. It isn't so I don't know what your point is?
3. I'm saying they can't move much. You have a 300 point unit that can't get anywhere. It's 2 Lascannons and 18 Bolters (19 if you spring for a Combi-Bolter). Maybe 5-10 of those will hit anything, and then the rest sit there. All it takes is one melee unit to put it out of commission. Nobody is afraid of a 20 man Marine squad in melee! You'll have to be forced to fall back because you need those Lascannons firing, and they aren't gonna overwhelm anybody. It's unwieldy and bad.
4. Anybody Deep Striking for melee is going to have a way to reroll unless they like to live dangerously, which is then a 48% (look at Asterion, Shrike, and Black Templars as Loyalist examples, Raptors w/ Khorne Icons and infiltrated Icon Berserker Marines for Chaos, there's a few good examples), and the Overwatch is not dangerous. 36 Bolter shots in Overwatch is one dead Marine. One. The Lascannons inflict less than 0.2 deaths. So if your opponent is incapable of math, yeah there's Overwatch. There's also not caring about Overwatch. The latter is what you're going for, definitely.
Also Alpha Legion has the better survivability trait. Morale checks don't matter if you don't have to make them. With lower squad numbers that's not a worry for Alpha Legion. I have no idea why you'd ever suggest that, ever. Black Legion has easily the worst trait in the book and are the equivalent of Iron Hands for the Loyalists, except you get access to what is actually a pretty great character. Still not worth bothering with though.
You're also proposing the squad in your scenario is ever in Rapid Fire range. It won't be because it can't move anywhere efficiently.
Yeah, I might have overstated a couple of points. Happy to clarify.
Since you are a competitive player, I ask you to remember the original comparison from earlier in the thread: a 10x man NM squad vs a 20x man BLCSM squad. I'm sure you have some other ideas in mind, but I have been arguing this selection.
1) You're right, it's Ld9 on BLCSM squads. i sometimes get Ld10 when they have a Dark Apostle near them.
1.1) Then don't advance, or only advance with one squad. I do fine marching across the table. Advancing and shooting is a nice to have that doesn't get used each turn.
2) My point is Noise Marines have less wounds and the game does not stop the round they get out of a Rhino. What I think you are arguing is the added mobility the NMs gain from Rhino gives them some advantage and I am saying that rarely works out in practice.
In general, my NMs are disembarking turn 2 because a) something is in range and b) I don't want the Rhino destroyed and the occupants shot up before they get a chance to shoot. So the Rhino has moved at 18 inches (12 inch movement + advance) and the Noise Marines have moved another 9 (3 inch disembark + 6 inch movement.)
That's 15 inches further than the CSMs could move by turn 2 without advancing. But now the Noise Marines are in 24 inches of the opponent, without a screen, and without an HQ with an aura. They are going to have a great turn of shooting, then take a lot of wounds because they are a priority target.
Before I go on, do you want to explain what you are doing to keep that from happening? Because being out in front has generally not worked for me in many games. I was finding the only reason I was using the Rhinos was to shield NMs from first-turn shooting and mobility didn't mean much.
3) Those 300 point CSM squads move far enough to take objectives, which is typically where I want them.
4) Sure. Forgetting the reroll shenanigans are once per turn for most armies, let's say whoever is deep striking makes it. Go ahead and charge a 20 man BLCSM squad standing next to Abaddon & an Exalted Champion. Make sure you set up to do at least 15 wounds against MEQ because Overwatch with rerolls + DttFE is a lot more potent than you claim, close combat is lethal, and Abaddon is going to charge the next turn.
With regards to Alpha Legion, sure, they take 16% fewer hits because of the Legion Trait. That's quite an advantage.
The reason people play Black Legion is to reroll all misses to hit because of Abaddon. I have not taken the time to do much math around this but I am happy with the offensive bonuses.
What kills the Noise Marines in a Rhino is Abaddon. It's very hard for NMs to benefit from him when they are in a Rhino, and they suffer the same problems you describe when they are not. If you deploy Abaddon with the rest of your army, he's going to be 15 inches behind the Noise Marines by turn 2. If you deploy him from Deep Strike, he won't be buffing your army turn one and there's a very good chance he will be in the open by turn 3 once the NMs have gone down.
Maybe it's a Black Legion thing or a matched play thing, but I don't see how standing up a unit with half the wounds way in front of the rest of your army is better than a slower moving force with double the wounds.
1. That makes more sense, but look at how many points you're throwing into an already 300 points squad just to try and make them not flee. You're already running 2 or 3 of these squads (So 600-900 points), points on Abigail, and now points on the Apostle. That's not leaving a lot of room for actual damage dealers. That's basically 6 Lascannons with the Bolters a turn. That's bad.
2. I'm usually just infiltrating 20+ Cultists or Deep Striking a couple of cheap Raptors with the Khorne icon. Either one works. I'm not particularly picky on my screens as long as they can be where they need to be and are cheap. I'm also experimenting with 5 man Spawns as well and infiltrating them. Results are mixed with that.
3. How? Tactical Marines don't make it because you can kill them absurdly quick. Plus I can just charge them once and thats it. They'll be out of commission for the game. Nobody is scared of their melee, even assuming you had the Apostle nearby. It isn't hard to do either with that large a group you spent so much on, as you don't have proper amounts of points for screening units.
If you want to get through Conscripts, you have to get close and hit them.
4. When you reroll all Overwatch hits, I just got from 1 dead Marine to...2 dead Marines, or maybe 1.3 new Terminators. Overwatch isn't dangerous and hasn't been since its inception.
Also if they're deep striking they're banking on the 48% chance to make it. So not including the reroll once per turn from the Command Points, you have Black Templar Chapter Tactics, Shrike rerolls, Asterion rerolls, Khorne Icon with the Dreadclaw, infiltrated by Raven Guard or Alpha Legion, there's something Orks can do but I don't play against them right now so I don't remember what it is, and the Nemesis Dreadknight Grandmaster with the reroll charge Warlord Trait. Just off the top of my head. If I can make a 300 point unit that's already useless even more useless for a turn, sure let me at it.
Abigail is cool, but he isn't making any of the bad units in the codex any good, as you can take his reroll ability on better units. An Detachment with him and some Terminators, Bikers, and Obliterators with proper threat saturation? Totally tasty. Your idea isn't.
Also it's pretty easy for Noise Marines to benefit from Abigail. Just Deep Strike him and a Sorcerer ready to throw him forward (As you should maybe take a Sorcerer or Librarian for your Marines right now).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Does Death To The False Emperor work on Overwatch? I thought it was only the Fight phase, not the Charge phase.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Those of you taking exalted champions, how are you equipping them?
Preferably cheap. Usually a second chainsword or a chainaxe. A power sword if i have points to waste. My reasoning behind this being, that their lack of a SOC lets them die rather quickly, so i try to keep them as far as possible from the enemy and let aspire to glory do all the hard lifting for me.
JNAProductions wrote: Does Death To The False Emperor work on Overwatch? I thought it was only the Fight phase, not the Charge phase.
Yes, DtoFE is only in the fight phase. It does not apply to Overwatch. Not sure if this is in regards to my comment, but that point could have been better articulated.
Overwatch + rerolls to hit + 5+ DotFE + rerolls to wound b/c EC + Abaddon charging next turn is a nasty combination.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Those of you taking exalted champions, how are you equipping them?
Preferably cheap. Usually a second chainsword or a chainaxe. A power sword if i have points to waste. My reasoning behind this being, that their lack of a SOC lets them die rather quickly, so i try to keep them as far as possible from the enemy and let aspire to glory do all the hard lifting for me.
Yeh cheap is probably best. Although I was thinking of moving the power fists from my berserker champions onto the exalted champions to get more mileage for the 12 points. Then running the zerker champs with sword and axe instead. Could drop the power fists altogether but for 12 points...
Yeah, the way you wrote it, it seemed like you were saying DttFE procced on Overwatch.
But let's see... 20 Marines with 2(? Right?) Lascannons expect to do (assuming everyone is in rapid fire range, which they probably are) 11 bolter hits and .61 Las hits, for 5.5 and .51 wounds, for 1.83 and .42 dead marines, or 2.25 total.
Assume a 10 man BT Assault Marine squad, you're left with usually 8 of them alive. That's 17 swings, for 11.33 hits, 5.67 wounds, and 1.89 dead Marines. So yeah, they're boned, especially if Abby charges in. But all they need to do is survive to make that squad useless. Can they?
21 attacks, hitting on 3s and proccing DttFE on a 5+, rerolling hits (right?). 14 hits initially, with 7 extra attacks and 7 misses. 7 misses become 2.33 more hits and 2.33 more DttFE hits, for 9.33 extra attacks. 8.29 extra hits from DttFE, for 24.62 hits. That becomes 12.31 wounds, and 4.1 dead Assault Marines.
They lost 6 dudes, leaving them at 4. Morale wipes the squad on a 6, so they've got a 2.78% chance of dying.
Or, in other words, a 97.22% chance of making that squad useless for a turn. They won't last long after this, but they did their job.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Those of you taking exalted champions, how are you equipping them?Although I was thinking of moving the power fists from my berserker champions onto the exalted champions to get more mileage for the 12 points. Then running the zerker champs with sword and axe instead.
Certainly, but consider that the enemy can target the EC as an independent character, unlike the berzerker champion. So in my experience, the berzerker champion usually lasts longer in one on one combat, at least against targets with anti-tank weapons like dreadnoughts or thunder hammers. In the end it depends on the kind of army that you're facing, but i would always keep the fist on the zerker champ.
Could drop the power fists altogether but for 12 points...
It's usually not worth it if you're facing huge blobs of infantry with T3. On any other occasion the power fist is worth their points against heavy infantry, characters or vehicles. Unless you can switch them out for an artifact like the Hydra Blade or the Dark Crozius.
For anyone who is curious, yesterday I took my "Five Finger Death Punch" Chaos list and won the Salt City Gladiator Games GT with 94/95 battle points over 5 rounds (we had a huge number of attendees cancel last minute to get us just below the attendance we'd need for a 6 round ITC event). I have the list and descriptions of the first day on my Facebook blog (link below), and can add descriptions of the 4th and 5th games if people are interested. I was able to beat the #10 ranked US ITC player (Ynarri) and the really good local Blood Angels guy who won the Boise Cup.
To be fair, I had a lot of luck and no one brought a competitive Astra Militarum army. I think at a big event with the new codex AM army, or at events with more Gullimen spam, my army would have a harder time.
Tooling up the EC just makes him a higher priority target. He hasn't got the BS or A to especially excel, especially with no invuln save or armour/ride options. I give mine two plasma pistols because I had the model and wanted to do something with it and PLs make cost moot.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Those of you taking exalted champions, how are you equipping them?Although I was thinking of moving the power fists from my berserker champions onto the exalted champions to get more mileage for the 12 points. Then running the zerker champs with sword and axe instead.
Certainly, but consider that the enemy can target the EC as an independent character, unlike the berzerker champion. So in my experience, the berzerker champion usually lasts longer in one on one combat, at least against targets with anti-tank weapons like dreadnoughts or thunder hammers. In the end it depends on the kind of army that you're facing, but i would always keep the fist on the zerker champ.
Could drop the power fists altogether but for 12 points...
It's usually not worth it if you're facing huge blobs of infantry with T3. On any other occasion the power fist is worth their points against heavy infantry, characters or vehicles. Unless you can switch them out for an artifact like the Hydra Blade or the Dark Crozius.
Actually a very good point... I’ll keep the EC cheap for the rerolls then.
One last thing, I’m currently planning on having an EC and DA in each zerker squad (3), overkill perhaps?
JNAProductions wrote: Yeah, the way you wrote it, it seemed like you were saying DttFE procced on Overwatch.
But let's see... 20 Marines with 2(? Right?) Lascannons expect to do (assuming everyone is in rapid fire range, which they probably are) 11 bolter hits and .61 Las hits, for 5.5 and .51 wounds, for 1.83 and .42 dead marines, or 2.25 total.
Assume a 10 man BT Assault Marine squad, you're left with usually 8 of them alive. That's 17 swings, for 11.33 hits, 5.67 wounds, and 1.89 dead Marines. So yeah, they're boned, especially if Abby charges in. But all they need to do is survive to make that squad useless. Can they?
21 attacks, hitting on 3s and proccing DttFE on a 5+, rerolling hits (right?). 14 hits initially, with 7 extra attacks and 7 misses. 7 misses become 2.33 more hits and 2.33 more DttFE hits, for 9.33 extra attacks. 8.29 extra hits from DttFE, for 24.62 hits. That becomes 12.31 wounds, and 4.1 dead Assault Marines.
They lost 6 dudes, leaving them at 4. Morale wipes the squad on a 6, so they've got a 2.78% chance of dying.
Or, in other words, a 97.22% chance of making that squad useless for a turn. They won't last long after this, but they did their job.
I would do two to three separate Assault Squads in that scenario, but really the main choice would be Vanguard because just a few more points is an extra attack and LD, which makes the morale factor moot. Not sure the math on that though but I'm expecting maybe 2 more Marines without having done any of it.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Those of you taking exalted champions, how are you equipping them?Although I was thinking of moving the power fists from my berserker champions onto the exalted champions to get more mileage for the 12 points. Then running the zerker champs with sword and axe instead.
Certainly, but consider that the enemy can target the EC as an independent character, unlike the berzerker champion. So in my experience, the berzerker champion usually lasts longer in one on one combat, at least against targets with anti-tank weapons like dreadnoughts or thunder hammers. In the end it depends on the kind of army that you're facing, but i would always keep the fist on the zerker champ.
Could drop the power fists altogether but for 12 points...
It's usually not worth it if you're facing huge blobs of infantry with T3. On any other occasion the power fist is worth their points against heavy infantry, characters or vehicles. Unless you can switch them out for an artifact like the Hydra Blade or the Dark Crozius.
Actually a very good point... I’ll keep the EC cheap for the rerolls then.
One last thing, I’m currently planning on having an EC and DA in each zerker squad (3), overkill perhaps?
Three ECs, three DAs, three medium zerks, and three Rhinos... that costs about the same as half as many characters and an extra mech zerk squad. Definitely overkill!
Another thing to keep in mind about the Exalted Champ is that if noise marines near him die in the fight phase, they get to re-roll the wounds of the death throw shots, as well as getting more attacks if they roll a 6+ (which the icon improves).
jcd386 wrote: Another thing to keep in mind about the Exalted Champ is that if noise marines near him die in the fight phase, they get to re-roll the wounds of the death throw shots, as well as getting more attacks if they roll a 6+ (which the icon improves).
Whoa, yeah, same with the DA, in fact there'll be situations where you can get a cheeky 2D3+DTTFE Blastmaster shots out and re-roll to wound with them.
It's definitely worth bearing in mind these things whilst allocating NM deaths. If there's a Knight left with 1W as you finish your final Shooting Phase, that's Big Game Hunter in the bag. Certainly better than letting it fire one last barrage.
Cephalobeard wrote: CSM kind of suck in 8th. I'd highly recommend cultists instead, if you have that option.
I do but it feels wrong to take cultists as my only troops in a csm army
Well, if it helps:
- we are supposed to be 10,000 year veterans and we've spent that (accelerated) time in a Petri dish full of empyrean forces and Cannon-fodder waiting to be press-ganged or converted, if most of our soldiers are Chosen or Elite Cult or Possessed then that's because they've survived plenty of battles by making the pawns go first;
- corpse-lover tactical squads have two weapon specialists because that fool Guilliman said so, there's no Codex Astartes telling us to take our plasma tactical and heavy support Squads that worked perfectly well in the Heresy and split them off
- there's nothing saying you can't take one or two Heretac squads but adding a load of Cultists will definitely help, especially if you face an opponent with some throwaway Scions who can nuke your Rhinos turn one and leave your Zerks to foot-slog it at a gunline
The first point is a huge one, for me.
As Alpha Legion, my cultists I don't view as a part of my Legion. They're menials I've tricked or recruited to follow orders, whether that one it or not. My Berzerkers, Noise Marines, etc are all my hyper specialized, efficient veterans of subterfuge and espionage.
Also, from a competitive standpoint, it's infinitely more efficient. Lol
Berzerkers and subterfuge and espionage in the same sentence
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Those of you taking exalted champions, how are you equipping them?Although I was thinking of moving the power fists from my berserker champions onto the exalted champions to get more mileage for the 12 points. Then running the zerker champs with sword and axe instead.
Certainly, but consider that the enemy can target the EC as an independent character, unlike the berzerker champion. So in my experience, the berzerker champion usually lasts longer in one on one combat, at least against targets with anti-tank weapons like dreadnoughts or thunder hammers. In the end it depends on the kind of army that you're facing, but i would always keep the fist on the zerker champ.
Could drop the power fists altogether but for 12 points...
It's usually not worth it if you're facing huge blobs of infantry with T3. On any other occasion the power fist is worth their points against heavy infantry, characters or vehicles. Unless you can switch them out for an artifact like the Hydra Blade or the Dark Crozius.
Actually a very good point... I’ll keep the EC cheap for the rerolls then.
One last thing, I’m currently planning on having an EC and DA in each zerker squad (3), overkill perhaps?
Three ECs, three DAs, three medium zerks, and three Rhinos... that costs about the same as half as many characters and an extra mech zerk squad. Definitely overkill!
Yep that’s a fair assessment! Perhaps one character per squad would do just fine...
Two squadrons, both made up of two Rhinos containing zerks and a character. That way, you can threaten two locations - or do a mechanised banzai charge.
So I just played a game with my Alpha Legion list vs. a Genestealer Cult list. I'm starting to think dropping the Berzerkers is the best thing I've done with the army. My shooting did some good work, and that -1 to hit really frustrated the hell out of my opponent, who was running like 9 scout sentinels and 3 Goliath Trucks full of tooled-up Neophytes. His melee blobs only managed to wipe out my Cultist wall before being annihilated by my Noise Marines and bikers as well as some well-placed Smites. My Havocs didn't really accomplish all that much, as they missed most of their shots due to poor dice rolling. I'm debating switching them out for some newly-purchased used Obliterators. I gotta admit, the Cult list was not terribly optimized IMO, but I still have good feelings about where I am with my Alpha Legion. Far and away the best legion trait to use in Codex: CSM.
lindsay40k wrote: So… you can only play Tide of Traitors if you have a Chaos Space Marines detachment, for instance Khârn leading three squads of Emperor's Children. If you do play it, then you can play it on Cultists belonging to the Death Guard, who apparently are not Chaos Slace Marines.
This is the very first subfaction Codex, and confidence in 'simpler & more intuitive' feels like it's giving way to suspension of common sense
It does say in the preface section for all the stratagems in the CSM codex that the Death Guard and Thousand Suns don't get them due to having their own books. The FAQ just clarified that stratagems are unlocked based on having a detachment of the corresponding faction in the army and that cross-faction stratagems will work as long as the target shares the correct targeting keyword.
Additionally, common sense is retained if you view them as orders. Stratagems from one detachment can be applied to a different subfaction because you as the army commander can order your troops however you'd like and the detachments you take represent your experience in doing so. Some stratagems like the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives one requires that the units themselves are specially trained for the task while others like Chaos Familiar are just a perk addition to the army that consumes no list points.
If they didn't intend for this, they could easily have made <Legion> the stratagem requirement instead of Heretic Astartes, since Death Guard can't be <Legion>. This was planned from the start probably as a means of unifying Chaos as a faction.
So over the weekend did my first GT with Black legion, Learned a lot, and kind of wish I'd spent more time practicing instead of speed painting to get them ready. A few thoughts in no particular order:
Abaddon never got a second round of combat, two phases was the most any of his opponents lasted. Best moment was wiping out a group of zerkers who got the charge off on him, it was a great "You think I'm trapped in CC with you, wrong, you're trapped in CC with me" moment. I would have liked to get into a fight with Girlyman, but bad luck Abaddon only fought other chaos players. Even with a bum warlord trait, he was an absolute lynchpin, being both an amazing force multiplier and an unmatched beat stick.
Obliterators were jaw dropping good, They deep struck in with Abaddon, dropped skarbrand in a single volley, wiped out a 20 man unit of zerkers in a single phase with Endless cacophony, and even saved abaddon from getting zerker swarmed (and were surprisingly effective in CC). Since you can only use EC once per turn, taking a second unit of them is subject to diminishing returns, but at least one unit of them should be an auto include in any chaos list.
Land raider was so-so, impressive firepower, but huge and thus easy to lock up in CC, so it never really served its role as a zerker delivery machine. Probably going to get cut from my list because everyone knew how to deal with it. For the cost I could have doubled my number of zerkers and still had enough points left over to put them in rhinos.
Twin las totting hellbrute, Worked well, not very efficient but that might be why it worked. There were always bigger threats, so killing it was never a priority for my opponents. It put out 4 lascannon shots in rounds it mattered, and worked as a good line backer discouraging deep strikes at my havoks.
Havoks, Performed adequately, I actually ended up liking the auto cannon a bit more than the las cannons, as outside of a knight that was crisped in a volley, I never ran into many heavy vehicles, if the tournament had been next weekend I'm sure I would have had a chance to use the las cannons more efficiently against AM tanks.
Terminators, really kind of disappointing. Combi plasma is super expensive, and making a 9" charge is a daunting possibility. No matter what you are doing you are paying for wargear you are not using. Also we are past the point where no scatter deep strike is a novel strategy, it doesn't take many units to make half the board off limits to deep strikers, and with cheap units like cultist and conscripts it won't end up costing many points. Given their options are deep strike or waddle, I think they are going to get trimmed from any future competitive lists.
Cultist, they have one job, to bubble wrap, and they are nearly unequaled in it. They single handedly stopped 2 20 man alpha legion zerker squads from getting first turn charges. I used the old Bubble wrap with spokes, I got first turn so the spokes just advanced back towards the main line leaving the zerkers 17" away from the nearest of my units. It did not turn out well for the zerkers, and that is why I think the alpha legion trait is way overhyped. Smart opponents will just deny you a chance to get your first turn charge (or make it laughably ineffective), then you have 600pts of zerkers with their butts hanging out in the breeze.
Khorne berzerkers, I had high hopes for them, and while they are wonderfully efficient when they get in combat, you need a reliable method of delivery, which I was lacking. The anvillus pattern dreadclaw is probably that delivery mechanism.
CSM squads, cheap, but unimpressive for even their relative cheapness. Honestly I think I'll replace them with horrors to meet my troop requirements, because the loss of the black legion trait and let the galaxy burn stratagem isn't even worth a second thought.
Other thoughts, the relic isn't really balanced for perfect deep strike, or alpha legion infiltrators, so it continues to be my least favorite mission by far and away for it's ease of abuse.
I really underestimated the Iron warriors legion trait, I spent a match running across the board with no armor bonus from cover getting thumped by things like heavy bolters and auto cannons.
I never really thought of havok's other than as cheap turrets, but after seeing two squads of them with plasma guns in a rhino, I realize there isn't a reason to take choosen or even CSM. Havok's combine the best parts of both, cheap bodies with access to hard hitting special weapons.
I need to pick up some noise marines, and I'm thinking about picking up some warp talons. noise marines are just plain good units, nothing over the top, but solid fire power. Warp talons are on par with Khorne berserkers (well kinnda berserkers can swing twice but warp talons reroll wounds) but can deep strike and move like they have some place to be.
OutOfManaException wrote: Any recommendations on what loadout to put on Decimators? I've heard dual Soulburners are good now.
Soulburners basically cause mortal wounds on every hit. That's huge. They also cause mortal wounds to your Decimator, but only one per turn. It's a really solid choice, but keep in mind, that they only have a range of 24". Given that the Decimator can no longer DS, you might find yourself hard pressed to get into range, if your opponent is smart. If your army is lacking fire support, you should also think about adding a Conversion Beamer or two to your loadout, as they are a really solid choice now.
Just got back from my first GT also. Congrats on yours Grimgold!
Definitely echoing the need to get practice in against tournament caliber opposition. 10/10 would have gotten me an additional win, and prevented me from making silly mistakes in the wins I did have. It’s just good overall.
As for chaos thoughts, I too had a rhino filled with berserkers (which is perfectly fine by the way. No need for exotic delivery methods. Just toss them in and you’re good to go). I was, however, underwhelmed by the zerkers themselves. To be fair, I ran both Magnus and Mortarion. So the zerkers didn’t really have any targets that one of those two hadn’t already dealt with. In a list with just one of the big guys, I think there’s some good value.
The obliterators were very good. A little too inconsistent for my liking and they eat CP like there’s no tomorrow, but they can pop two rhinos the turn they double fire if you have some decent dice.
Noise marines I can’t ever see myself not taking. Far too important in the current meta.
Magnus, for better or for worse, is an auto include. The psychic force multiplication is more valuable than what any other unit can bring.
I like Mortarion a lot. In the current meta, he does a lot of things that are really important. I do, however, have to think about whether I can still fit him in my list because.....
I need a fire raptor. Like desperate need. I’m probably dropping the zerkers and the oblits to fit it in my list. It’s kind of silly. And if I don’t take Mortarion (or want to sacrifice his durability) I can make the fire raptor -2 to hit, which is actually savage. It just puts out a ridiculous amount of shooting and if they decide to kill it, then Magnus is probably pretty happy.
Grimgold wrote: So over the weekend did my first GT with Black legion, Learned a lot, and kind of wish I'd spent more time practicing instead of speed painting to get them ready. A few thoughts in no particular order:
Abaddon never got a second round of combat, two phases was the most any of his opponents lasted. Best moment was wiping out a group of zerkers who got the charge off on him, it was a great "You think I'm trapped in CC with you, wrong, you're trapped in CC with me" moment. I would have liked to get into a fight with Girlyman, but bad luck Abaddon only fought other chaos players. Even with a bum warlord trait, he was an absolute lynchpin, being both an amazing force multiplier and an unmatched beat stick.
Obliterators were jaw dropping good, They deep struck in with Abaddon, dropped skarbrand in a single volley, wiped out a 20 man unit of zerkers in a single phase with Endless cacophony, and even saved abaddon from getting zerker swarmed (and were surprisingly effective in CC). Since you can only use EC once per turn, taking a second unit of them is subject to diminishing returns, but at least one unit of them should be an auto include in any chaos list.
Land raider was so-so, impressive firepower, but huge and thus easy to lock up in CC, so it never really served its role as a zerker delivery machine. Probably going to get cut from my list because everyone knew how to deal with it. For the cost I could have doubled my number of zerkers and still had enough points left over to put them in rhinos.
Twin las totting hellbrute, Worked well, not very efficient but that might be why it worked. There were always bigger threats, so killing it was never a priority for my opponents. It put out 4 lascannon shots in rounds it mattered, and worked as a good line backer discouraging deep strikes at my havoks.
Havoks, Performed adequately, I actually ended up liking the auto cannon a bit more than the las cannons, as outside of a knight that was crisped in a volley, I never ran into many heavy vehicles, if the tournament had been next weekend I'm sure I would have had a chance to use the las cannons more efficiently against AM tanks.
Terminators, really kind of disappointing. Combi plasma is super expensive, and making a 9" charge is a daunting possibility. No matter what you are doing you are paying for wargear you are not using. Also we are past the point where no scatter deep strike is a novel strategy, it doesn't take many units to make half the board off limits to deep strikers, and with cheap units like cultist and conscripts it won't end up costing many points. Given their options are deep strike or waddle, I think they are going to get trimmed from any future competitive lists.
Cultist, they have one job, to bubble wrap, and they are nearly unequaled in it. They single handedly stopped 2 20 man alpha legion zerker squads from getting first turn charges. I used the old Bubble wrap with spokes, I got first turn so the spokes just advanced back towards the main line leaving the zerkers 17" away from the nearest of my units. It did not turn out well for the zerkers, and that is why I think the alpha legion trait is way overhyped. Smart opponents will just deny you a chance to get your first turn charge (or make it laughably ineffective), then you have 600pts of zerkers with their butts hanging out in the breeze.
Khorne berzerkers, I had high hopes for them, and while they are wonderfully efficient when they get in combat, you need a reliable method of delivery, which I was lacking. The anvillus pattern dreadclaw is probably that delivery mechanism.
CSM squads, cheap, but unimpressive for even their relative cheapness. Honestly I think I'll replace them with horrors to meet my troop requirements, because the loss of the black legion trait and let the galaxy burn stratagem isn't even worth a second thought.
Other thoughts, the relic isn't really balanced for perfect deep strike, or alpha legion infiltrators, so it continues to be my least favorite mission by far and away for it's ease of abuse.
I really underestimated the Iron warriors legion trait, I spent a match running across the board with no armor bonus from cover getting thumped by things like heavy bolters and auto cannons.
I never really thought of havok's other than as cheap turrets, but after seeing two squads of them with plasma guns in a rhino, I realize there isn't a reason to take choosen or even CSM. Havok's combine the best parts of both, cheap bodies with access to hard hitting special weapons.
I need to pick up some noise marines, and I'm thinking about picking up some warp talons. noise marines are just plain good units, nothing over the top, but solid fire power. Warp talons are on par with Khorne berserkers (well kinnda berserkers can swing twice but warp talons reroll wounds) but can deep strike and move like they have some place to be.
Sounds like one of the lists I saw at the Utah SCGG - is that where you played, or another GT? Kind of funny facing just other Chaos armies.
luke1705 wrote: Just got back from my first GT also. Congrats on yours Grimgold!
Definitely echoing the need to get practice in against tournament caliber opposition. 10/10 would have gotten me an additional win, and prevented me from making silly mistakes in the wins I did have. It’s just good overall.
As for chaos thoughts, I too had a rhino filled with berserkers (which is perfectly fine by the way. No need for exotic delivery methods. Just toss them in and you’re good to go). I was, however, underwhelmed by the zerkers themselves. To be fair, I ran both Magnus and Mortarion. So the zerkers didn’t really have any targets that one of those two hadn’t already dealt with. In a list with just one of the big guys, I think there’s some good value.
The obliterators were very good. A little too inconsistent for my liking and they eat CP like there’s no tomorrow, but they can pop two rhinos the turn they double fire if you have some decent dice.
Noise marines I can’t ever see myself not taking. Far too important in the current meta.
Magnus, for better or for worse, is an auto include. The psychic force multiplication is more valuable than what any other unit can bring.
I like Mortarion a lot. In the current meta, he does a lot of things that are really important. I do, however, have to think about whether I can still fit him in my list because.....
I need a fire raptor. Like desperate need. I’m probably dropping the zerkers and the oblits to fit it in my list. It’s kind of silly. And if I don’t take Mortarion (or want to sacrifice his durability) I can make the fire raptor -2 to hit, which is actually savage. It just puts out a ridiculous amount of shooting and if they decide to kill it, then Magnus is probably pretty happy.
My wife played against one of the Fire Raptor guys at the GT (maybe not the one you're referring to), and took great delight in popping it turn 1. Don't get me wrong... they're unbelievable, but the Oblits seem so much more (ironically) predictable in that they're not targets until they get to do a potentially withering amount of work. I think i'd trade other things to get the Raptor before I got rid of Oblits who are just stars right now (and who also didn't let me down even in my poorer performances at the tourney).
Msolve wrote: Would you recommend using Havocs or are they just a bit subpar?
If there’s going to be tall ruins for them to start in to buff their cover saves, they’re a perfectly fine unit. My strongest game right now is three squads of them in a 35PL list - so successful I’m wondering if I’m TFG’ing by using it. Last week a Black Templar army surrendered on turn one, and I outshot IG despite his LR Punisher taking a very lucky nine salvoes to fall. In bigger games they obviously want a cultist screen, but yeah, four LC or AC or HB or five PG with 2+ saves and five ablative wounds, gimme!
My wife played against one of the Fire Raptor guys at the GT (maybe not the one you're referring to), and took great delight in popping it turn 1. Don't get me wrong... they're unbelievable, but the Oblits seem so much more (ironically) predictable in that they're not targets until they get to do a potentially withering amount of work. I think i'd trade other things to get the Raptor before I got rid of Oblits who are just stars right now (and who also didn't let me down even in my poorer performances at the tourney).
I was at the BFS GT. There were a couple women there but no one said they were married to you. To be fair, I didn’t ask.
There are some things that can pop the fire raptor, but I’m trying to keep the big 3 as mainstays in my list:
1) Magnus
2) Mortarion
3) Fire raptor
I want to make the oblits work but I don’t think I have enough left after those 3, and I think the first two take a lot of shooting away from the fire raptor, so I’m not as concerned about it’s durability
So I am wondering how to paint my Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines in an Alpha Legion army. I kind of want them to match the rest of my army, but if fluff-wise if it makes more sense for them to be red/purple/pink then I will do that. Any one have advice on this? Edit: also should they have an alpha legion shoulder pad icon? Does that make sense?
Msolve wrote: So I am wondering how to paint my Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines in an Alpha Legion army. I kind of want them to match the rest of my army, but if fluff-wise if it makes more sense for them to be red/purple/pink then I will do that. Any one have advice on this? Edit: also should they have an alpha legion shoulder pad icon? Does that make sense?
Just paint them to match the rest of your army. How they are armed is distinctive enough to tell what they are.
My wife played against one of the Fire Raptor guys at the GT (maybe not the one you're referring to), and took great delight in popping it turn 1. Don't get me wrong... they're unbelievable, but the Oblits seem so much more (ironically) predictable in that they're not targets until they get to do a potentially withering amount of work. I think i'd trade other things to get the Raptor before I got rid of Oblits who are just stars right now (and who also didn't let me down even in my poorer performances at the tourney).
I was at the BFS GT. There were a couple women there but no one said they were married to you. To be fair, I didn’t ask.
There are some things that can pop the fire raptor, but I’m trying to keep the big 3 as mainstays in my list:
1) Magnus
2) Mortarion
3) Fire raptor
I want to make the oblits work but I don’t think I have enough left after those 3, and I think the first two take a lot of shooting away from the fire raptor, so I’m not as concerned about it’s durability
Daemon Prince: Buff the shooty stuff with re-roll 1's, protect backfield against chargers?
Sorc: Prescience for buffing the Falchion/Rapiers and Warp Time for flinging Cultists/Prince/whatever forward
Cultists: Screen, meat shield, camp, DIE
Lascannon Havocs: Maintain long range anti big-stuff threat along with Falchion, shoot twice with stratagem, camp in ruins
Rapiers: More efficient use of points to shoot heavy bolter shots, but no ignores cover
Leviathan: Unsure if this is the best loadout, or if I should go with 1x Butcher and 1x Claw to protect the backfield and still take potshots at stuff from 36"?
Falchion: Kill big stuff, though slightly worse compared to the new buff to the IG Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword
What are we thinking about TITANIC options? I’m really impressed by the Kytan - no degrading accuracy, auto heal and invulnerable works in melee, and 5A to start with. And it can benefit from Warptime, Prescience, Diabolic Strength, Warpsmith repairs, Herald buffs, HA aura buffs... and it’s cheaper than LoS
I’ve seen a Lancer conversion I’d like to do, but the rules... can’t help but feel a Kytan will do a better job, firing its gun on the way in and having more attacks with no degrading accuracy and massive HA synergy. Feels like that makes it a way, way better option for duelling with Knights.
Msolve wrote: So I am wondering how to paint my Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines in an Alpha Legion army. I kind of want them to match the rest of my army, but if fluff-wise if it makes more sense for them to be red/purple/pink then I will do that. Any one have advice on this? Edit: also should they have an alpha legion shoulder pad icon? Does that make sense?
It's really up to you. I paint all my cult troops in their Legion colors, it makes them stand out amongst all the Black. I know other people who do the opposite and everything is themed to their own army.
Msolve wrote: So I am wondering how to paint my Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines in an Alpha Legion army. I kind of want them to match the rest of my army, but if fluff-wise if it makes more sense for them to be red/purple/pink then I will do that. Any one have advice on this? Edit: also should they have an alpha legion shoulder pad icon? Does that make sense?
These are my Alpha Legion "Berzerkers". They're made from Primaris Reivers, and have no special markings.
However, their color scheme immediately identifies them as Alphas even without having their details painted.
I'm going to be doing the exact same for about 40 Noise Marines, using Primaris Hellblasters in the next few weeks.
Edit: Also added one of them with their Kharybdis.
I'll make one in the WIP Area so I don't derail things; I think you're safe with doing conversions/painting Alpha as long as you make the effort to make them look appropriate.
My wife played against one of the Fire Raptor guys at the GT (maybe not the one you're referring to), and took great delight in popping it turn 1. Don't get me wrong... they're unbelievable, but the Oblits seem so much more (ironically) predictable in that they're not targets until they get to do a potentially withering amount of work. I think i'd trade other things to get the Raptor before I got rid of Oblits who are just stars right now (and who also didn't let me down even in my poorer performances at the tourney).
I was at the BFS GT. There were a couple women there but no one said they were married to you. To be fair, I didn’t ask.
There are some things that can pop the fire raptor, but I’m trying to keep the big 3 as mainstays in my list:
1) Magnus
2) Mortarion
3) Fire raptor
I want to make the oblits work but I don’t think I have enough left after those 3, and I think the first two take a lot of shooting away from the fire raptor, so I’m not as concerned about it’s durability
There's definitely a psychological value to having all three of those concurrently. I'm sure any opponent will feel a degree of demoralization knowing even if they put everything they've got into removing one super threat vector, that there are still two more.
Incidentally, my wife did lose that game where she offed the Fire Raptor... she was just really proud of having done so with how much I had been talking up the model in the weeks before BfS. :-p I'm pretty sure we didn't meet (you'd remember me... I was the one person in a wheelchair... I kind of stick out), but I did see your army at some point on a board, and it looked beautiful.
Hmm. Chaos Rhino costs 4PL, which includes a Havoc Launcher. T7, 11W.
Bunker costs 5PL, which includes a gun turret. T8, 12W. Havoc Squad’s important guns can all shoot out of it.
In my experience, a Chaos Lord’s re-rolls might well come at a cost of (1) placing the gunners on awkward rooftops where they might not all get LOS on a target, and (2) the Havocs themselves being shootable. Cover bonuses usually mitigate the latter, but sometimes you don’t even get that - my last big game was on a pretty open plain, and there’s a jungle in my future as well. Whereas if a part of a Bunker can see a target, then every lascannon can take a shot.
At the very least, this warrants investigation. As I understand it, Fortifications are just an immobile unit, placed with the rest of your army? Can they be plonked on top of an Objective?
lindsay40k wrote: What are we thinking about TITANIC options? I’m really impressed by the Kytan - no degrading accuracy, auto heal and invulnerable works in melee, and 5A to start with. And it can benefit from Warptime, Prescience, Diabolic Strength, Warpsmith repairs, Herald buffs, HA aura buffs... and it’s cheaper than LoS
I’ve seen a Lancer conversion I’d like to do, but the rules... can’t help but feel a Kytan will do a better job, firing its gun on the way in and having more attacks with no degrading accuracy and massive HA synergy. Feels like that makes it a way, way better option for duelling with Knights.
It sounds pretty good! I should take a look at it.
Lately, I've found Zarakynel to be quite good. Two weeks ago, I took Z and a Renegade Knight and was paired up with another Chaos player [CSM, with footsloggers and a Deredeo] vs a pretty good Astra Militarum player with 2k.
Zarakynel ran forward and luckily made the charge on the first turn. It then kept taking down squad after squad of Conscripts and Guardsmen, as the Mortal Wounds from the sword spilled over, and Z could retreat from an uncool combat and charge an easier target.
It helped that Z also got off the power that made a target unit get -1 to hit. It survived a lot of shots, including a full round of shooting from a Baneblade, only for it's last two wounds to be picked off on turn 4.
Meanwhile, my Renegade Knight was blasted off the table on Turn 1, after stubbing away a few stray guardsmen and not even killing off a full Lascannon team.
Knights seem really overcosted this edition. I saw some mathhammer on reddit a couple weeks ago and it said the Atrapos was the only one that was points efficient. The issue is that it is only good again high toughness multi wound models and other titanic units, so if you come up against a horde or infantry heavy list you are wasting 550 points. It does absolutely melt superheavies though. It can easily kill a baneblade variant in a single turn.
Yeah... I’ve not been too impressed with my Land Raider this edition, and facing off against a Knight and Hierodule I’ve not felt afraid about their army as a whole. I’d probably not be as interested in paying the ‘Titan tax’ were I not usually in friendly games against opponents doing the same.
What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.
How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?
fishwaffle2232 wrote: What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.
How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?
Plasma squads are going to get fairly up close, I find they benefit from Chosen’s 2A & extra weapon slot. Playing Power Levels, I’ve got a combi-plasma squad in the works; it’s an extra Overwatch hit or two.
Spearhead with autocannon Havocs, Missile Launcher Havocs, Lord and Oblits is the first thing I write in nearly every list, and probably will remain so until I get four Lascannon to replace the Missiles.
Already having a minimal Spearhead also means that the Chosen help fill out a Vanguard; if I were taking two Plasma squads and only had one Elite and one HS choice, it’d probably come down to army budgeting whether I fielded them as Havocs or Chosen.
How are the autocannons working out for you? Their target profile seems pretty low so I haven't used them yet. The changes to S v T and wounding really hurt them as it really diminishes the value of S7.
As for TITANIC units I'm thinking the Daemon Lords could be the way to go too. Zarakynel looks like she/he/it/<pronoun> can kick some serious arse and generally be a massive pain to deal with in close quarters. Aetaos'rau'keres looks extremely good but is a bit too obnoxious to be taking to casual games.
Other than that I like the look of the Typhon but again think it would be slightly too many points. It's cannon has a huge range of targets though which is really where it's value lies, plus 2+ lascannon sponsons don't hurt. I also just love the idea of a Typhon rumbling around a corner and all the corpse worshippers running for cover as it brings it's gun to bear.
Has anyone else had success with these big expensive units?
The Autocannons aren’t bad. They outperform HBs against Primaris and Terminators, and if there’s Storm Shields they outperform even heavier stuff. They’re adequate against Thunderwolves as well - again, outperforming Lascannons, though ideally you want MW inflicters as well. Against heavy armour, they’re very handy when there’s just 2W left, which I’m finding to be not that rare a situation when Krak or LC are doing the heavy lifting. Both Havoc squads tend to attract a lot of fire, so they must be registering as credible threats
lindsay40k wrote: The Autocannons aren’t bad. They outperform HBs against Primaris and Terminators, and if there’s Storm Shields they outperform even heavier stuff. They’re adequate against Thunderwolves as well - again, outperforming Lascannons, though ideally you want MW inflicters as well. Against heavy armour, they’re very handy when there’s just 2W left, which I’m finding to be not that rare a situation when Krak or LC are doing the heavy lifting. Both Havoc squads tend to attract a lot of fire, so they must be registering as credible threats
Autocannons definitely have a solid niche in that area, but let's not forget that, if Necron vehicles become good with the codex, they'll have a role against those as well.
saint_red wrote: Knights seem really overcosted this edition. I saw some mathhammer on reddit a couple weeks ago and it said the Atrapos was the only one that was points efficient. The issue is that it is only good again high toughness multi wound models and other titanic units, so if you come up against a horde or infantry heavy list you are wasting 550 points. It does absolutely melt superheavies though. It can easily kill a baneblade variant in a single turn.
This is a good thing, and not that they're overcosted. They're simply no longer autoincludes. Knights serve the purpose of tanking the field, absorbing incoming fire and most importantly surviving fairly well to later turns. If your knight lasts the whole game then you got 5-7 turns of shooting out of it. More than most tanks or infantry can claim.
And if doesn't survive, you just soaked up whatever firepower would have crushed the rest of your army in a game of counter matchups. Magnus, for all he is praised as being a godlike figure, routinely drops turn 1 to dedicated focus fire. He has to be positioned and deployed carefully to come in as reinforcements or hit their flanks rather than leading the charge front and center and getting shot to shreds. And this is a guy who can have a 3++ invuln that rerolls 1s.
This edition feels much better balanced than when players simply took 5 knights and called that a list. THOSE knights were undercosted. Wraithknights were horribly underpriced too. Now that their price is actually fair it seems weak when it's really not. They are still resistant to infantry fire and make excellent assassins of all things big and large.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.
How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?
Plasma squads are going to get fairly up close, I find they benefit from Chosen’s 2A & extra weapon slot. Playing Power Levels, I’ve got a combi-plasma squad in the works; it’s an extra Overwatch hit or two.
Spearhead with autocannon Havocs, Missile Launcher Havocs, Lord and Oblits is the first thing I write in nearly every list, and probably will remain so until I get four Lascannon to replace the Missiles.
Already having a minimal Spearhead also means that the Chosen help fill out a Vanguard; if I were taking two Plasma squads and only had one Elite and one HS choice, it’d probably come down to army budgeting whether I fielded them as Havocs or Chosen.
Thanks for the response. Interesting to hear how well autocannons are working. I had been thinking 2 las cannons, autocannon and missile launcher in one squad of havocs that will sit back (ideally in cover) and make use of the -1 to hit. Depending on how my list comes together, ill probably take another havoc squad with plasmas that will, as you mentioned, be positioned closer to the enemy ( probably using forward operatives).
It will be interesting to see how valuable the extra attack and leadership of the chosen is.
Im hoping adding in the extra threat of the heavy havoc team will take some fire away from my helbrute which will be running as a gun platform with lascannon and missiles.
May I ask how successful your list has been? Ive been really impreesed with chaos so far.
I've gotten some work done with my Havoc squad with 3 AC and a Lascannon. Ideally I'd want more Lascannons, but those are the models I have. I'd run a squad of 4 AC and a squad of 4 Las if I had them.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: What do people think about havocs vs chosen? Im looking at my current AL list which has two units of chosen with plasma guns to fill out a vanguard detachment. But im wondering if i would be better off going for for the spearhead and taking 2 units of havocs and a unit of oblits instead.
How are people loading out their havocs and how have they been pefroming?
Plasma squads are going to get fairly up close, I find they benefit from Chosen’s 2A & extra weapon slot. Playing Power Levels, I’ve got a combi-plasma squad in the works; it’s an extra Overwatch hit or two.
Spearhead with autocannon Havocs, Missile Launcher Havocs, Lord and Oblits is the first thing I write in nearly every list, and probably will remain so until I get four Lascannon to replace the Missiles.
Already having a minimal Spearhead also means that the Chosen help fill out a Vanguard; if I were taking two Plasma squads and only had one Elite and one HS choice, it’d probably come down to army budgeting whether I fielded them as Havocs or Chosen.
Thanks for the response. Interesting to hear how well autocannons are working. I had been thinking 2 las cannons, autocannon and missile launcher in one squad of havocs that will sit back (ideally in cover) and make use of the -1 to hit. Depending on how my list comes together, ill probably take another havoc squad with plasmas that will, as you mentioned, be positioned closer to the enemy ( probably using forward operatives).
It will be interesting to see how valuable the extra attack and leadership of the chosen is.
Im hoping adding in the extra threat of the heavy havoc team will take some fire away from my helbrute which will be running as a gun platform with lascannon and missiles.
May I ask how successful your list has been? Ive been really impreesed with chaos so far.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Helbrute draws fire from the Havocs! Since they got Fire Frenzy, nobody seems to want to leave my HBs standing, and the all-or-nothing elimination of the threat they pose seems to draw S6-8 shots to finish them off rather than get started killing a squad. When I take one, I’m more inclined to take two flame fists and hide from LOS as a counter-attack unit.
As for my list... it’s doing well, since I dropped the Land Raider points sink. (I’ve got a Spartan to build, and paying +2PL for +4W, +4 Lascannons, and +15 capacity, it looks *much* more helpful.) Two Havoc squads with a Lord and Cultist screen are doing a fine job as a firebase, last big game they were top priority targets for a Knight and a Hierodule - and in small games they perform fantastically.
Oh, and if I were playing points rather than PL, I *might* be more interested in plasma Havocs.
The immediate focus fire on helbrutes is why I don’t mind running them with plasma cannon/missile launcher. A wound or two doesn’t mean much when they’re going to get hit by every high damage attack the enemy can throw at them. Go all out with fire frenzy, eat some mortal wounds, and hope you go crazy and get another round of shooting before you get blown up on their turn.
Hmm. My Space Wolf regular opponent only has Fenrisian Wolves for screening... that might be a good way to either cripple a squad of Astartes, or influence where she puts the puppers.
There's definitely a psychological value to having all three of those concurrently. I'm sure any opponent will feel a degree of demoralization knowing even if they put everything they've got into removing one super threat vector, that there are still two more.
Incidentally, my wife did lose that game where she offed the Fire Raptor... she was just really proud of having done so with how much I had been talking up the model in the weeks before BfS. :-p I'm pretty sure we didn't meet (you'd remember me... I was the one person in a wheelchair... I kind of stick out), but I did see your army at some point on a board, and it looked beautiful.
Tbh I'm thinking less demoralization and more that even if you do take down 1 on the first turn (which unless it's the Fire Raptor is a pretty big if for most armies), then the other 2 get you. Let alone if I can go first, which with 3 big drops shouldn't be an issue a decent amount of the time.
I do recall seeing you but I didn't catch what you were playing at the time of the event. First GT and I got to play against 2 bracket generals, one of whom was the battlemaster, and that was all in the first 3 rounds! Was an amazing experience though and I'm still kicking myself for making the mistake that lost me the game vs Gonyo. But you live and you learn. And then you practice more.
Only thing I don't like a ton about my current iteration of the list is that Ahriman on a disc can be sniped (and he can't deep strike IIRC). But I think with the guard meta shifting more towards tanks, those supporting characters will be less of a threat, and therefore snipers will be less prevalent. Plus Ahriman isn't exactly a pushover like a commissar.
I think Obliterators are much better than autocannon havocs. They avoid alpha strikes, can be positioned well. And at their worst dice rolls, they are equal to autocannon shots and at their best, they are far better than autocannon shots. And you get 12 shots from a squad compared to 8 from a havoc squad.
I feel that I would always find the points to have an obliterator squad over a havoc squad with autocannons.
Land Raiders are a bit too pricey for their points. And people are bringing a lot of ranged firepower these days. So Land Raiders don't last very long.
Werekill wrote: I just got gifted some CSM for 40k, and I have no idea what to grab next for 2000 points. Does anyone have any recommendations?
I got:
2 Helbrutes
20 Csm 6 chosen
6 bikers
5 ravens
5 possessed
1 Chaos Lord
As a Necron main, Terminators look fun. A list with a lot of deepstriking in general sounds pretty fun. Any help would be appreciated.
It would help if we had an idea of these models’ loadouts! Also, would those ravens be Raptors? Some general points:
- Terminators are absolutely a good call, if that Lord is himself a Terminator then a deep strike force with overcharged Plasma Guns will be solid.
- Obliterators are also fantastic deep strikers.
- if you’ve got a Forgeworld budget (or really good conversion skills), deep strike lists absolutely love Kharybdis Assault Claws. (Dreadclaws can be readily kitbashed from Tyrannocytes but aren’t as efficient.)
- Your Possessed need transport and ideally larger unit size than minimum. Likewise the Chosen, they want to do Plasma drivebys or have the mobility to get their power weapons into play.
- Cultists are one of the best units we have, I would absolutely recommend several dozen for screening. We have a Stratagem that lets us revive every dead member of an extant unit and then outflank with them - a useful way to get cheap and plentiful ObSec units to rendezvous with deep insertion units.
- CSM are generally considered weak and best used to fill out Chosen or Havoc squads.
- Havocs, Noise Marines (usually want a transport) and Berzerkers (always want a transport) are really good.
- 2000 points suggests two or three Detachments, which in turn suggests three to five HQ. A Daemon Prince with Wings is a solid addition, especially when you’re going mobile. Unless you’re going World Eaters, a Sorcerer would be great - CSM have some brilliant spells. (There’s things to be said for putting one on a Steed of Slaanesh or bike.) A Dark Apostle is a great addition to shock troops like Possessed and (presumably) melee Chosen, and if you’ve got the points maybe an Exalted Champion as well.
- If you go Alpha Legion, you don’t need as many Transports as you can pay CPs to have infantry infiltrate, adding even more deep strike style drops.
- Possessed jumping out of a drop pod with a Sorcerer casting a god-specific spell on them makes for an interesting Daemon summoning point, which adds flexibility and even more deep strikes. Though I must add that this is gimmicky, if you roll well and get a KoS or GUO then it’s likely not going to be punching anything until turn three, by which point another Plasma Chosen squad could have fired dozens of S8 shots. If you fancy Word Bearers, it’s the main offensive use for our unique Stratagem, but generally you’ll find yourself thinking ‘hang on, I could have had nine more Obliterators on turn one’.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think Obliterators are much better than autocannon havocs. They avoid alpha strikes, can be positioned well. And at their worst dice rolls, they are equal to autocannon shots and at their best, they are far better than autocannon shots. And you get 12 shots from a squad compared to 8 from a havoc squad.
I feel that I would always find the points to have an obliterator squad over a havoc squad with autocannons.
Land Raiders are a bit too pricey for their points. And people are bringing a lot of ranged firepower these days. So Land Raiders don't last very long.
I take Autocannon Havocs to 90% of my games and I absolutely agree that Obliterators are better! Though if I had a second Oblit unit, I’d probably still take both rather than switch out for them. AC Havocs have a different role, they may have less firepower but they can take three mortal wounds without any loss of effectiveness, don’t need to get as close and expose themselves to Smites, and they add to the mass of bodies in a firebase parked on an objective or two.
Another thing to remember is that Obliterators are big fire magnets once they land. 195 points for them makes them easy to kill, whereas you're basically camping the Autocannon Havocs in cover and with maybe a few meat shields for those number of wounds and a 2+. They're definitely doing different things.
The Havocs can also sit in a Rhino T1 if you're that afraid of Alpha Strike. You're not gonna do it but the option exists.
You can put oblits in cover too. Their biggest benefit over the havocs is that they can deep strike in, making them literally immune to a counter-offensive. Havocs can get shot off the board before they're able to fire.
Obliterators are substantially more durable but their range is shorter. They also do more damage on average, for what it's worth. But of course, they're more expensive.
The oblits also can benefit from the changeling if you're doing tzeentch, making them -2 to hit (but sacrificing their shoot twice ability).
TLDR: I'd get 3 squads of oblits before I thought about a single squad of havocs. They just do so much work.
You can throw the Obliterators in cover too, but keep in mind they're more likely to get charged somehow to be put out of commission, assuming circumstances allow it of course.
Huh. I was going to note that Havocs count towards the part of your army that’s deployed on the table at the start, but now I can’t find where it’s stated that you have to deploy a minimum proportion on the table at the start. Obviously you need enough to not get tabled if your opponent goes first, but do I misremember that need for a quota?
Even if there’s no minimum deployment, you’re usually going to have something to defend. If there’s an objective in your DZ in a tall ruin, Havocs do have clear advantages over Oblits for rooftop guard duty. Also, the bigger the table, the more diminishing the long-term returns of mid-ranged super guns.
Thanks Lindsay40k! That is some fantastic advice, it will help a ton.
Unfortunately I don't really know the loadouts, thanks to being unfamiliar with CSM in general right now. Also yes it was Raptors, lol. My phone auto corrected, apologies.
But Terminators and Obliterators seem pretty cool! It looks like I'll be grabbing those and a Daemon Prince when I can. My main concern is that I'm a bit intimidated of the loadouts; as a Necron player, I'm used to not having many weapon choices per model. What would you recommend for the Terminators, and how many should I grab? 10?
In addition, I'm a bit confused by what you meant by "filling chosen or havoc squads" with the Marines. Does this mean you can usually get away with using Marines as Chosen proxies?
lindsay40k wrote: Huh. I was going to note that Havocs count towards the part of your army that’s deployed on the table at the start, but now I can’t find where it’s stated that you have to deploy a minimum proportion on the table at the start. Obviously you need enough to not get tabled if your opponent goes first, but do I misremember that need for a quota?
For matched play p215 Tacctica Reserves requires you to deploy at least 50% of your units on the battlefield
Another thing to consider in the Havocs v Obliterators argument: Havocs with Lascannons can sit in an Chaos Bastion and control large parts of the board. Obliterators cannot, their guns don't shoot far enough.
Arkaine suggested this a while ago, and I thought 200 points for the Bastion was too much. But when you think about it, you are pretty much guaranteeing the Hacovs are immune from alpha strike / first turn. The Bastion has 20 wounds, which is pretty tough. Plus you can take more guns on top of it.
Werekill wrote: Thanks Lindsay40k! That is some fantastic advice, it will help a ton.
Unfortunately I don't really know the loadouts, thanks to being unfamiliar with CSM in general right now. Also yes it was Raptors, lol. My phone auto corrected, apologies.
But Terminators and Obliterators seem pretty cool! It looks like I'll be grabbing those and a Daemon Prince when I can. My main concern is that I'm a bit intimidated of the loadouts; as a Necron player, I'm used to not having many weapon choices per model. What would you recommend for the Terminators, and how many should I grab? 10?
In addition, I'm a bit confused by what you meant by "filling chosen or havoc squads" with the Marines. Does this mean you can usually get away with using Marines as Chosen proxies?
Terminators love combi-plasma. The kit doesn't contain any, but snipping a barrel off of a combi-bolter and replacing with a plasma pistol does the trick. Reaper isn't terrible but IMO Plasma saturation is a bit better. If your Legion allows it, Mark of Slaanesh is fantastic as you can double your firepower. Five is a potent unit, ten can sometimes kill so much stuff with their first salvo there's no targets for an Endless Cacophony!
A CSM wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword, a Chosen wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword. As long as your opponent's clear what the unit is, a few troopers being WYSIWYG but not particularly ornate doesn't matter. (Also, there *is* no Chosen set on the shelves, so there's few alternatives.)
If you are playing a Legion (rather than Renegades) you can use 30k models for Chosen and spice it up a bit to be more chaosy. The old armour really suits their fluff of being the old guard of the Legions.
ZergSmasher wrote: I've gotten some work done with my Havoc squad with 3 AC and a Lascannon. Ideally I'd want more Lascannons, but those are the models I have. I'd run a squad of 4 AC and a squad of 4 Las if I had them.
I usually play three ways against Tyranids and Space Wolves.
Typhus deploys in Teleportarium. Characters get in Rhino with Plague Marines. Poxwalkers deploy out of sight and within 7” of the Cultist blob.
Dreads, Lord and PMs stomp off to shoot up Space Wolves. The Horde heads off for the middle of the table, which is always Genestealer Central. Bring it on! Flies and Walking Dead make Poxwalkers unkillable, whilst Cultists go and banzai charge themselves to death, maintaining a conga line to the Poxwalkers to spawn a new horde. Typhus drops in and supercharges the horde, which now hits on 4+ with Tallyman rerolls and with VOTLW wounds most units on a 2+. As long as they get a few buffs on them, they’ll probably roll over most units in their path. I’ll try to keep a few Cultists alive, for recycling the whole lot and do it all over again
Gonna have to bring Lascannons to take out tarpit vehicles - probably a Spartan party van. If a load of Whirlwinds and Biovores turn up, might have to protect the initial seeding Poxwalkers...
I may cut this all back. Typhus might be overkill, and I don’t like taking characters more senior than my WB Warlord. I’m mainly taking the dreads because they’re there, and ignoring the -1 to hit for moving... might drop them, the Lord, and give the PMs Blight Launchers. When I take an odd unit for synergy, I get drawn towards filling out a detachment
Terminators love combi-plasma. The kit doesn't contain any, but snipping a barrel off of a combi-bolter and replacing with a plasma pistol does the trick. Reaper isn't terrible but IMO Plasma saturation is a bit better. If your Legion allows it, Mark of Slaanesh is fantastic as you can double your firepower. Five is a potent unit, ten can sometimes kill so much stuff with their first salvo there's no targets for an Endless Cacophony!
A CSM wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword, a Chosen wears power armour and carries a boltgun or chainsword. As long as your opponent's clear what the unit is, a few troopers being WYSIWYG but not particularly ornate doesn't matter. (Also, there *is* no Chosen set on the shelves, so there's few alternatives.)
Awesome! I'm actually in the process of working out a deal for some used Terminators, 10 of them with a Terminator Lord. It also will come with a Rhino, which is awesome. In addition, I'm trading old Xwing stuff for another deal, a Dark Vengeance set with a Rhino and sprue of marines. I'm pretty excited to try out all of this stuff!
Ah, gotcha on the Chosen. Luckily my local shop is pretty easygoing on WYSIWYG so that's a good thing. I'll be getting six more chosen from the above deal too, so I guess the Rhinos should go with the two Chosen squads I'll have? That seems solid. Then with Alpha Legion I can drop in the Helbrutes, plus I can grab some Obliterators.
All in all, I'm super excited to try Chaos. I love Necrons and won't sell them, but they are just terrible right now.
Two DV Chosen squads is some heavy power weapon saturation, they’ll certainly make an impact! Plus their two Bolter guys usually protect the important ones from Overwatch. Those squads really like Icons of Wrath to guarantee making the charge.
I’m an advocate of Fiends of Slaanesh and I can see them beingnuseful with those squads, you don’t want people falling back and exposing a compact unit like that to firepower. I try to end melees on my terms - ie, in the Enemy turn so I can charge again.
Regarding the autocannon vs obliterator discussion. I feel that heavy support's priority will always be to take out opposing heavy support first before focusing down other things. (Unless the opposing heavy support is tanky, but not very deadly, in which case it would be safe to hit other stuff first and ignore it).
So, lets say you are facing a Azreal firebase, or a Gulliman firebase. Its then about being able to take out a big chunk of that firebase before they strike back and take out your heavy support. Obliterators excel in this role because even if opponent goes first, he can't target the obliterators. And if your shooting is hard enough, then you should be able to deplete his firebase even if it has that Azreal 4++ bubble and such. Because throw enough shooting at something, and it will die irregardless. Obliterators also have the number of shots and firepower enough to do significant damage, plus they are a great target for that slanaash strategem to allow them to shoot twice.
Once your opponent heavy support is depleted, it doesn't matter even if he gets to shoot back at your obliterators because by then, his damage potential is heavily nerfed.
For the same amount of points as 3 squads of obliterators, you might be able to take 4 squads of havocs. But 4 squads of havocs can be reduced to just two or worse if opponent gets to shoot first (assuming facing said Azreal or gulliman firebase). And then you are left with 2 squads of havocs shooting back. We can see who is going to win this shooting war.
I think its important to consider that you may face very heavy shooting, Be it gulliman firebase, Azreal firebase or IG. This is because the meta these days have to factor in facing Mortarion or Magnus lists as well. And the easiest way to counter a Mortarion or Magnus, is to bring enough heavy shooting, and hope that you go first and shoot them off the board.
This means that if you aren't facing a list with the ability to shoot a Mortarion or Magnus off the board in one round, it probably isn't a very competitive list.
And your own shooting has be shooty enough to match that kind of heavy shooting, or take out rival Mortarion or Magnus as well. (Unless you bring your own and fancy a melee duke out of Daemon Primarchs).
Thats why I feel that Autocannon havocs lose out to obliterators significantly. They don't have the punch, and they can also get shot off the board if opponent goes first. Maybe they aren't threatening enough to warrant being the focus of shooting. But that only means you are exposing what IS important to you to opponent shooting. That says even more about what they bring to the table compared to obliterators.
About that lascannon havoc in a bastion discussion. A Land Raider can carry troops up the board, costs over 300 points and has 16 wounds, T8 with 2+ save, and has 4 shots of lascannons (plus other guns). A lascannon squad in a bastian is like said land raider except without the moblity. Yet, most people have said land raiders are too pricey for what they do.
So, if a LR is too pricey, what makes a havoc lascannon squad in a bastian worth it? You are paying over 300 points for just 3 lascannon shots. Maybe that's ok if you get to fire those 4 lascannons the whole game. But the question is, what is the rest of your shooting, and why shouldn't the opponent kill that off before then focusing on your bastion with lascannon havocs?
If you have any other shooting (and you will) that is less fragile and worth shooting at, then as an opponent, I would kill off those first, because they are easy pickings. Be it hellbrutes, other havocs who are not in a bastian, etc. Then when there is nothing left to threaten my shooting except that one bastian las havocs, then I will focus fire on that and kill it.
If your opponent chooses to focus fire on something like your autocannon havoc squad or your bastian on turn 1, he is probably not very experienced. It is likely there will be far more valuable targets he really should be shooting at.
lindsay40k wrote: Two DV Chosen squads is some heavy power weapon saturation, they’ll certainly make an impact! Plus their two Bolter guys usually protect the important ones from Overwatch. Those squads really like Icons of Wrath to guarantee making the charge.
I’m an advocate of Fiends of Slaanesh and I can see them beingnuseful with those squads, you don’t want people falling back and exposing a compact unit like that to firepower. I try to end melees on my terms - ie, in the Enemy turn so I can charge again.
Yeah I am certainly excited to try them out! The sheer variety available through legions and strategems give so many options; I can't wait for Necrons to get their own codex. But for now (and potentially for the forseeable future), I'm a chaos player. Heck, I could see myself sticking with them even post necron codex.
Fiends of Slaanesh seem cool, especially since I planned to focus Slaanesh anyway for the extra shooting. I'll definitely look into them.
Anyone got some tips for a Word Bearer centric army? How would you go about it? I only ask because I have a bunch of cultists and a bastion in WB colours, and no idea what to do with them now! Ok so the bastion may just end up as terrain (which is fine), but I’d certainly like to use the cultists, and WB fluff is the best.
Agreed, I prefer the autocannon to the dual laz on my predators. Mathhammer wise they may come out the same but add a chaos lord and the number of hits on the auto cannon have a better chance to go up (statistically) than laz cannons due to more shots. Also auto cannons can kill more swarm units than dual laz can (Obviously you should not be using it for that but sometimes there are not better targets).
So in short I just like the flexibility of the ac.
Vomikron Noxis wrote: Anyone got some tips for a Word Bearer centric army? How would you go about it? I only ask because I have a bunch of cultists and a bastion in WB colours, and no idea what to do with them now! Ok so the bastion may just end up as terrain (which is fine), but I’d certainly like to use the cultists, and WB fluff is the best.
Our Legion Warlord Trait is solid, we can have a large fire base with a single Lord directing their fire. He can sometimes reach a dropped Obliterators unit as well.
The main use of our Legion Trait is to save the occasional weapon specialist from running away. Along with our Watlord Trait, our Havocs Get some benefit.
Our Legion Relic is an ok choice for a DA accompanying Berzerkers.
Our stratagem is a gimmick and if you want to make use of it you'll need a gimmick list. Try dropping Slaaneshi or Nurglitch Possessed and Sorcerer out of a Dreadclaw, buffing the endurance of the Possessed, and next turn Summoning a Greater Daemon. As I say: gimmick.
Juggernauts and Steeds of Slaanesh are good character mounts and have synergy with a mounted Herald following a Rhino full of Possessed. Our old signature unit is now a decent unit with good endurance and fair melee ability.
Cultists are fantastic, make use of Tide of Traitors and have your nearly wiped out screening units regenerate and rendezvous with a deep insertion attack that wants an ObSec unit to hold ground.
Bastion is ok but if I'm paying 20PL for four lascannons with 20W I'll pay 21PL for a Spartan with twice the gun and a better save and wow how is this so cheap. TBH I'd use it for scenarios but probably not all comers.
lindsay40k wrote: Bastion is ok but if I'm paying 20PL for four lascannons with 20W I'll pay 21PL for a Spartan with twice the gun and a better save and wow how is this so cheap. TBH I'd use it for scenarios but probably not all comers.
Bastion - toughness 10, Spartan - toughness 8. Bastion laughs at missile launchers and lascannons and pretty much every anti-vehicle weapon. Spartan dies in a fire even with its save because everything firing at it reduces saves by 3 or 4.
In fact, the Spartan's own weapons:
Infernal Hunger - S8 melee, Spartan wound 4+, save 5+, 33% to damage, Bastion wound 5+, save 6+, 28% to damage. Spartan takes 17% more damage.
Twin Heavy Bolter - 6 x S5, Spartan wound 5+, save 3+, 11% to damage, Bastion wound 6+, save 4+, 8% to damage. Spartan takes 33% more damage.
Quad Lascannon - 4 x S9, Spartan wound 3+, save 5+, 44% to damage, Bastion wound 5+, save 6+, 28% to damage. Spartan takes 58% more damage.
Laser Destroyer - S12, Spartan wound 3+, save 6+, 55% to damage, Bastion wound 3+, save none, 67% to damage. Bastion takes 21% more damage.
Twin Heavy Flamer - 2d6 x S5, Spartan wound 5+, save 3+, 11% to damage, Bastion wound 6+, save 4+, 8% to damage. Spartan takes 33% more damage.
Havoc Launcher - d6 x S5, Spartan wound 5+, save 2+, 5% to damage, Bastion wound 6+, save 3+, 5% to damage. Both take identical damage.
The only time the Spartan is tankier is when being shot at by the Laser Destroyer, which you have to replace the Quad Lascannon to get. Since the Quad Lascannon is better at killing Spartans with its 4 shots and longer range, the laser is taken for anti-building stuff (since it's not 14 and doesn't wound better against T7 tanks).
It's still probably better than a bastion full of havocs for the point cost but it's FORGE WORLD. Since when is that anything new? Their stuff is grossly efficient to encourage overspenders.
My wife played against one of the Fire Raptor guys at the GT (maybe not the one you're referring to), and took great delight in popping it turn 1. Don't get me wrong... they're unbelievable, but the Oblits seem so much more (ironically) predictable in that they're not targets until they get to do a potentially withering amount of work. I think i'd trade other things to get the Raptor before I got rid of Oblits who are just stars right now (and who also didn't let me down even in my poorer performances at the tourney).
I was at the BFS GT. There were a couple women there but no one said they were married to you. To be fair, I didn’t ask.
There are some things that can pop the fire raptor, but I’m trying to keep the big 3 as mainstays in my list:
1) Magnus
2) Mortarion
3) Fire raptor
I want to make the oblits work but I don’t think I have enough left after those 3, and I think the first two take a lot of shooting away from the fire raptor, so I’m not as concerned about it’s durability
Yeah... I couldn't make it work either.
Best I can come up with w/o Oblits is something like:
=Air Wing=
-Fire Rapter w/ hellstrike & HB -2x Hellblades with halestorm cannon
CPs are mainly to be used for re-rolling (I miss the old Fatey re-rolls )
To prevent alpha strike, I'd catty corner the deployment with the hellblades in front, long-wise... if my opponent wants to go after them... I'd be cool with that. The brothers can then go to town.
With summoning, I'd have flexibility and enough characters to summon various units turn 1.
I feel like I understand why the first place army placed where it did.
6 tactical squads with lascannons is roughly equivalent to the 3 20-man CSM squads I have been playing lately. Facing a large number of heavy weapons each turn is punishing, forces opponents to get in close to try and tie you up. Doesn't work out to be the the optimal strategy for many armies.
The six LasTac squads are one thing, the dozen Assault Cannon are another. Until we get to mount four or five Havoc Missile Launchers on a Rhino, I don't think we'll be doing much with the example.
How would we deal with this army? Looks like Noise Marine Kharybdis drops would hit hard. They'd have to be compact, to avoid Tigurius getting eaten, which would increase the thermal jets target saturation. Could probably avoid Tiggy's DTW coverage to keep the Warptime flowing.
I feel like I understand why the first place army placed where it did.
6 tactical squads with lascannons is roughly equivalent to the 3 20-man CSM squads I have been playing lately. Facing a large number of heavy weapons each turn is punishing, forces opponents to get in close to try and tie you up. Doesn't work out to be the the optimal strategy for many armies.
The list's workhorse was the Assault Cannon Razorbacks. You can run whatever else you feel like if you got six of those ready to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: The six LasTac squads are one thing, the dozen Assault Cannon are another. Until we get to mount four or five Havoc Missile Launchers on a Rhino, I don't think we'll be doing much with the example.
How would we deal with this army? Looks like Noise Marine Kharybdis drops would hit hard. They'd have to be compact, to avoid Tigurius getting eaten, which would increase the thermal jets target saturation. Could probably avoid Tiggy's DTW coverage to keep the Warptime flowing.
You deal with it in the same manner you deal with vehicles currently. Kill those and then any objective holders. You could theoretically kill Rowboat if he's in front of everyone instead of being a cover camping coward for whatever reason, and then take the leftover objectives.
I’m going to run a Lord of Skulls in a tournament just to try it out. What would be the best support to keep it running smoothly? A Warptime Sorcerer seems like a given, and the best legion to run it as seems like Iron Warriors for the 6+ fnp stratagem. What else would help?
Badablack wrote: I’m going to run a Lord of Skulls in a tournament just to try it out. What would be the best support to keep it running smoothly? A Warptime Sorcerer seems like a given, and the best legion to run it as seems like Iron Warriors for the 6+ fnp stratagem. What else would help?
So one list I have hadsome success with in testing is 2x Lord of Skulls paired with Abaddon, Chaos Terminator Lord, Sorcer with Jump pack(Spells are Death Hex and Prescience), and a squad of 5 terminators(Slaanash-marked) with combi-plas and lightning claws. Basically you deploy the skulls with abby in the middle on the table and everything else in reserves. Since you are aonly 6 drops I've gone first a fair amount and you deep strike the terminators, chaos lord and sorc lord on top of whatever is most threatening and blow it out of the water. Meanwhile, you can advance and shoot with the two LOS with abby making them reroll all misses.
If you don't want to get 2 LOS I would keep the same setup but maybe add a warpsmith and some cultists as chaff depending on what you have. At 1500 points I run a warpsmith with the LOS and it offers so much sustain on the model. between 2 and 4 wounds back a turn is a huge deal.
These are just my experiences and I am by no means a professional, but I figured I'd add my two sense,
Also everything is black legion obviously to benefit from abby. It doesn't do much for the LOS from a legion perscpetive, but re-rolling hits without spending a command point is amazing.
Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...
Yeah, if the four barrels on the Hellblade got four times the shots as the single barrel in the Helltalon (or even the latter’s POTMS equivalent), it’d be decent, but the firepower it has just isn’t doing it. I’ll maybe take mine for the CP from a full Flyer Wing now and then but it’s just not up scratch in general.
Badablack wrote: I’m going to run a Lord of Skulls in a tournament just to try it out. What would be the best support to keep it running smoothly? A Warptime Sorcerer seems like a given, and the best legion to run it as seems like Iron Warriors for the 6+ fnp stratagem. What else would help?
i cant decide between night lords and iron warriors for my lord of skulls
iron warriors you get the fnp, and fearless blobs to back it up
night lords you get the -1 to shoot at, which you dont have to trigger straight away, especially with 2 lord of skulls you can wait till they do 6-7 dmg, then trigger it, forcing them to decide whether to take bad shots or hit the undamaged one
night lords also has the morale bombs, which means you can spread your shots out more if you get other units up into range for a massive turn of killing potentially
I started using my Falchion. T9, 2+, 26W makes it fairly durable even against lascannons. I can one-shot Mortarion, Knights, super heavies, even Titans with the volcano cannon and still shoot all my other guns at other stuff.
Only problem is that "Everything Dies" is the title for this edition and that includes a monster tank. I struggle to justify having the volcano cannon when there just aren't enough super heavies on the board for it to shoot at. It will kill one thing no question every turn. But that thing will often die in a blaze of Overkill so tragically overpowering that it feels like a waste of shots. Like using a lascannon to kill a conscript. Except you're one-shotting a Wraith Knight in the same way.
What do you guys think? Can it be justified to bring a freakishly overqualified cannon to kill a single model, even if it means the rest of the game it's firing less efficiently?
Arkaine wrote: I started using my Falchion. T9, 2+, 26W makes it fairly durable even against lascannons. I can one-shot Mortarion, Knights, super heavies, even Titans with the volcano cannon and still shoot all my other guns at other stuff.
Only problem is that "Everything Dies" is the title for this edition and that includes a monster tank. I struggle to justify having the volcano cannon when there just aren't enough super heavies on the board for it to shoot at. It will kill one thing no question every turn. But that thing will often die in a blaze of Overkill so tragically overpowering that it feels like a waste of shots. Like using a lascannon to kill a conscript. Except you're one-shotting a Wraith Knight in the same way.
What do you guys think? Can it be justified to bring a freakishly overqualified cannon to kill a single model, even if it means the rest of the game it's firing less efficiently?
Hrm. It's worth it to take out Mortarion, he's just a beast that needs to be put down. It's not like you are going to run out of targets afterwards, DG lists tend not to have too many models.
But against most other things, no. I don't see a Falchion as a legitimate option against all lists, it's the most elite option you can go with.
Arkaine wrote: I started using my Falchion. T9, 2+, 26W makes it fairly durable even against lascannons. I can one-shot Mortarion, Knights, super heavies, even Titans with the volcano cannon and still shoot all my other guns at other stuff.
Only problem is that "Everything Dies" is the title for this edition and that includes a monster tank. I struggle to justify having the volcano cannon when there just aren't enough super heavies on the board for it to shoot at. It will kill one thing no question every turn. But that thing will often die in a blaze of Overkill so tragically overpowering that it feels like a waste of shots. Like using a lascannon to kill a conscript. Except you're one-shotting a Wraith Knight in the same way.
What do you guys think? Can it be justified to bring a freakishly overqualified cannon to kill a single model, even if it means the rest of the game it's firing less efficiently?
Not a "tournament list" but I posted my (hypothetical, soon to be real) Falchion 2k IW list earlier:
Spoiler:
BATTALION:
HQ:
Daemon Prince: Wings, 2x Malefic Talons, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Force Sword, Combi-flamer
Seems legit with mild redundancy but I'd have to do the math to really judge it. You have lots of long range stuff that might die easily to deep strikers but that LOW definitely encourages people to kill it before everything else that is squishy.
I think it would depend on whether your enemy chooses to kill the Falchion first or not and if he actually brought the means to do so.
Seeing new armies gaining CP back has me thinking They really dropped the ball on Khorne Daemonkin. Just imagine if they gained CPs as an actual "Blood Tithe" wiping out units to gain more CPs. Very thematic. But... Give the good buffs to eldar and Imperials instead.
Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...
...good points.
Not a big fan of proxying in tournaments. I'm thinking to replace the helblades with a pair of drakes.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Seeing new armies gaining CP back has me thinking They really dropped the ball on Khorne Daemonkin. Just imagine if they gained CPs as an actual "Blood Tithe" wiping out units to gain more CPs. Very thematic. But... Give the good buffs to eldar and Imperials instead.
The CSM codex is probably the best in the game right now. Maybe slightly behind Guard. With a bit of borrowing from the rest of the Chaos family we are the strongest faction.
The Eldar stuff they've previewed honestly looks very average.
Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...
...good points.
Not a big fan of proxying in tournaments. I'm thinking to replace the helblades with a pair of drakes.
Remenber that tactical role for drakes and aircraft it's completely different
Drakes are useful to early stop units from shooting/moving and to engage powerful anti tank unit in cac. They can be hit without penalties and they have a ridicolous short range weapon, so you have to be really close to the enemy. They are worth IF you need to gain a turn of two for other unit to came in range, it's high probable that for the second turn they will be shot to death.
Supersonic aircraft are -1 to hit and can outrange standard infantry weapons, so you can stay far and safe from massed fire, they are dedicated to kill specific targets or for aerial supremacy.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Seeing new armies gaining CP back has me thinking They really dropped the ball on Khorne Daemonkin. Just imagine if they gained CPs as an actual "Blood Tithe" wiping out units to gain more CPs. Very thematic. But... Give the good buffs to eldar and Imperials instead.
The CSM codex is probably the best in the game right now. Maybe slightly behind Guard. With a bit of borrowing from the rest of the Chaos family we are the strongest faction.
The Eldar stuff they've previewed honestly looks very average.
The Eldar traits are...okay I guess. However, the real issue is pricing on everything. If everyone gets a small discount, the codex could be even with everything besides AdMech (blech) and Guard, which would be a pleasant surprise.
I feel like I understand why the first place army placed where it did.
6 tactical squads with lascannons is roughly equivalent to the 3 20-man CSM squads I have been playing lately. Facing a large number of heavy weapons each turn is punishing, forces opponents to get in close to try and tie you up. Doesn't work out to be the the optimal strategy for many armies.
Thats how i play it. I have 6 Lascannons in my Chaos Marine Squads, 4 Missiles in the Havocs (coupled with Heavy Bolters) and it seems to d oa ton of fun damage.
Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...
...good points.
Not a big fan of proxying in tournaments. I'm thinking to replace the helblades with a pair of drakes.
Remenber that tactical role for drakes and aircraft it's completely different
Drakes are useful to early stop units from shooting/moving and to engage powerful anti tank unit in cac. They can be hit without penalties and they have a ridicolous short range weapon, so you have to be really close to the enemy. They are worth IF you need to gain a turn of two for other unit to came in range, it's high probable that for the second turn they will be shot to death.
Yup, the heldrakes are to give Magnus/Morty time to get to the enemy back line.
While the lords summon units as needed and eventually move up towards the enemy.
Supersonic aircraft are -1 to hit and can outrange standard infantry weapons, so you can stay far and safe from massed fire, they are dedicated to kill specific targets or for aerial supremacy.
I'll prolly make the airwing detachment DEATHGUARD so that I can cast Miasma on the Fire Raptor if needed.
Is anyone actually using R&H artillery along with their CSM detachments? Earthshakers and Quad Launchers appeal to me at the moment, help me understand if they really have any value.
I've recently toyed around with Plas-Pistolero-Raptors & a Plas-Pistolero Lord in my Renegade Chapter - probably better in Nightlords - and they're actually quite funny. For 113 points & shooting while locked in CC or falling back & shoot again they can cause some really nice havoc amongst the enemy lines.
I play 2 Units + Lord for 333 Points for 10 Supercharged Plas-Pistol shots. Not the best, but very good at disrupting something nasty shooty
They have value if you want to play shooty. Chaos does not play shooty.
Chaos actually plays shooty really well IMO ...
EDIT:
Ok, maybe not as well as armies like Guard, but if you really focus on it, CSM can bring some pretty powerful shooting lists. Especially if FW is permitted.
Is anyone actually using R&H artillery along with their CSM detachments? Earthshakers and Quad Launchers appeal to me at the moment, help me understand if they really have any value.
Anecdotal, but from having faced them, I would say they have a lot of value as long as you are building the list around using them.
Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?
Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.
I used to bring a Bloodthirster with my 7ed Word Bearers on the offchance, but no way now - rolling a 17 on your Summon attempt is just not an event worth aiming for, rerolls or nay, especially for the amount of points you have to leave off the table. GUO, KoS, and Be’lakor are doable, though. (Pending an FAQ on the minutiae of the latter.)
As it happens, I was just working out a list for the deep strike > summon ploy an hour or so ago. You can’t do it on the turn you arrive, so it takes some setting up. Something has to tank for the Sorcerer. The options I have in mind are:
- Terminators; lots of wounds and solid saves. You’ll probably want a MoS, for Plasma double tap? In which case, cast Delightful Agonies, as you’ve already told your opponent you’ve got Reinforcement Points, so you’re broadcasting your gambit, and they’ll probably suss you out and try to kill their way to the Sorcerer.
- Possessed or Contemptor in a Dreadclaw; pretty tough units, great targets for any of the God-specific endurance spells. Dreadclaw is an ok target for Warptime, it’s a decent Distraction Carnifex (but then, the same is true of Possessed).
- Supersonic Aircraft; I’m actually looking at doing this with a Hellblade. Fly it in the full 50” right up an enemy support character’s backside, teleport down behind it, cast Prescience and Miasma. It’s got a good chance of sniping a nuisance, cannot be charged by ground forces, and is at -2 to be hit with its 5++. I’m looking forwards to giving this a try in a smaller game.
- Kharybdis full of whatever; this is very likely to keep your summoner alive, but if it’s Noise Marines or Warptimed Berzerkers (they’ll be wasted on screening units, cast it on the KAC instead), then... what’s even going to be left for the Daemons to eat?
Once you’ve dropped, question is what to summon. BT and LoC are hardly ever even going to be an option. But... you can aim for a GD, and have a bucket of Plaguebearers or Daemonettes or Flesh Hounds or Horrors to hand for if you fall short.
Your problem then is that your opponent starts the game with like a Land Raider’s worth of points more than you. So you’ve got to find a landing zone where you can survive for a turn, and then have proximate targets for the Daemons to be worth summoning on. And then they’re 9” away from enemies, so likely to not even make any attacks until turn 3, whereupon if you’d spent the points on Warp Talons the enemy’s Devastators would already be dead.
It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.
I like the idea of Cultist Horde, even though other armies do Horde so much better. My only obvious concern is Morale. Currently using DG cultists for the rapid fire increase. I also favor the Pox Walker farm lists for Death Guard, feeding bodies into the Pox Pool.
I need a babysitter for the Mobs. Abaddon is prime choice, but Black Legion traits are eh on Cultists. Alpha Legion doesn't give any morale protection. Iron Warriors for their warlord trait and relic armor might fit the bill, but is Ignores cover cultists worth the build?
I like the idea of Cultist Horde, even though other armies do Horde so much better. My only obvious concern is Morale. Currently using DG cultists for the rapid fire increase. I also favor the Pox Walker farm lists for Death Guard, feeding bodies into the Pox Pool.
I need a babysitter for the Mobs. Abaddon is prime choice, but Black Legion traits are eh on Cultists. Alpha Legion doesn't give any morale protection. Iron Warriors for their warlord trait and relic armor might fit the bill, but is Ignores cover cultists worth the build?
As an Iron Warriors player, Fearless cultists are totally worth it. At least to blob and protect my tanks.
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?
Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.
I used to bring a Bloodthirster with my 7ed Word Bearers on the offchance, but no way now - rolling a 17 on your Summon attempt is just not an event worth aiming for, rerolls or nay, especially for the amount of points you have to leave off the table. GUO, KoS, and Be’lakor are doable, though. (Pending an FAQ on the minutiae of the latter.)
As it happens, I was just working out a list for the deep strike > summon ploy an hour or so ago. You can’t do it on the turn you arrive, so it takes some setting up. Something has to tank for the Sorcerer. The options I have in mind are:
- Terminators; lots of wounds and solid saves. You’ll probably want a MoS, for Plasma double tap? In which case, cast Delightful Agonies, as you’ve already told your opponent you’ve got Reinforcement Points, so you’re broadcasting your gambit, and they’ll probably suss you out and try to kill their way to the Sorcerer.
- Possessed or Contemptor in a Dreadclaw; pretty tough units, great targets for any of the God-specific endurance spells. Dreadclaw is an ok target for Warptime, it’s a decent Distraction Carnifex (but then, the same is true of Possessed).
- Supersonic Aircraft; I’m actually looking at doing this with a Hellblade. Fly it in the full 50” right up an enemy support character’s backside, teleport down behind it, cast Prescience and Miasma. It’s got a good chance of sniping a nuisance, cannot be charged by ground forces, and is at -2 to be hit with its 5++. I’m looking forwards to giving this a try in a smaller game.
- Kharybdis full of whatever; this is very likely to keep your summoner alive, but if it’s Noise Marines or Warptimed Berzerkers (they’ll be wasted on screening units, cast it on the KAC instead), then... what’s even going to be left for the Daemons to eat?
Once you’ve dropped, question is what to summon. BT and LoC are hardly ever even going to be an option. But... you can aim for a GD, and have a bucket of Plaguebearers or Daemonettes or Flesh Hounds or Horrors to hand for if you fall short.
Your problem then is that your opponent starts the game with like a Land Raider’s worth of points more than you. So you’ve got to find a landing zone where you can survive for a turn, and then have proximate targets for the Daemons to be worth summoning on. And then they’re 9” away from enemies, so likely to not even make any attacks until turn 3, whereupon if you’d spent the points on Warp Talons the enemy’s Devastators would already be dead.
It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.
Hmm interesting. I'll have to mull it over. Any Chaos Character can summon right? So I can have a Termi Lord summon? Also when you want to summon do you just set aside the points you'll need for it?
Yep, any character with the CHAOS keyword can summon.
I've thought long and hard about a summoning list but at this point in time I don't think it's worth the effort. There are two main issues with the strategy; a) most daemon units aren't that good b) losing your movement phase reduces threat range *significantly*.
Starting with the first problem, most daemon units aren't actually that powerful, especially when compared to some of the heavy hitters in the CSM dex (Berzerkers, Noise marines, even Possessed). The only close combat daemons worth summoning are bloodletters who do a ridiculous amount of damage but are way too fragile to walk up the table. Other units like daemonettes, bloodcrushers or plaguebearers are just straight up less effective. The stars of the daemon codex are the Changeling, brimstone horrors and exalted flamers. None of these units want to be in close combat/range and are most effective when deployed on the table at the beginning of the game.
The second issue of not being able to move before summoning really shuts down the strategy. Best case scenario you are getting summoned units into action on turn 2, but it's most likely going to be turn 3. To get them into the thick of it in turn 2 you need to either deepstrike a character + screen on turn 1 or to move up 12-15 inches on turn 1 so you're in range for a turn 2 summoning. This basically limits you to characters on bikes, with jump packs or a Daemon Prince with wings. After all this you still need to make an 8 inch charge (if you can take an icon) which is only a ~60% chance of success even with spending a command point for a re-roll.
As it stands I think the best way of summoning is to take a terminator bomb with a sorcerer for company. One idea I was thinking *might* work is a biker lord with the talisman of burning blood so he can move, advance and charge on turn 1 which sets him up for summoning in turn 2 (you can summon while locked in combat). If you take a DP with warptime you can semi-reliably get both of them in combat on turn 1, but the issue is they will probably get blown to pieces in your opponents turn.
Hopefully when the Daemons codex comes out it will make their units more viable overall and if we're lucky we might see some bonuses to summoning.
Yep, any character with the CHAOS keyword can summon.
Except Cypher.
Imho Summoning, if unchanged, is vow to disappear. It's already not that good.. so let's guess when Chaos daemon codex appear. At this moment players who want to mix CSM with Daemon will get to separate detachment to get the bonus (but will daemon get a "chapter trait" as they already got one ?), the stratagem (maybe available for our Daemon CSM depending on the wording daemon stratagem will get).
The only thing worthly of a Summoning for me is Herald. It's auto-summoning, it's a psyker. And you can get some nasty combo with Possessed (like Slaanesh Possessed getting 2D3 attack per turn or Nurgle possessed spamming mortal wound likes there is no tomorrow with VotlW + Nurgle daemon spell..)
My Word Bearers get far less mileage from Summoning than they do from a Battalion with two Nurglings units for infiltration, a Plaguebearer unit for objective camping, a Herald for casting, and Karanak for scarecrowing a deep strike character.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if I want more, it's Outriders - Seekers, Flesh Hounds, another Herald, and my Dreadclaw or Kharybdis that don't get Legion traits anyway.
It wants a Chaos Lord quartermaster to maximise its hits.
Factoring in that you’ll use a reroll on a number of shots or wound roll, we’re looking at around 20W against most armoured targets; 14, if it has a 5++:
Say 8 hits because you’ll reroll a 1 on your 2D6, say 5.5 wounds, at 3 damage a pop. 16.5 damage, 11 if it has a 5++. Then two Lascannon hits, 1.3 Wounds, 0.9 unsaved at 3.5 damage, probably another 3 Wounds overall.
The Spartan, on the other hand, gets 14W on a Land Raider class target, regardless of 5++ or not:
Say 8 hits because when you’ve got 8 Lascannon you’re going to add a Lord, say 6 Wounds because you didn’t need to reroll the number of shots, say 4 unsaved by 2+ or 5++, 3.5 damage per wound.
So, if you’re facing Knights or such, the Spartan pretty much has damage parity - and can close range gaps better than the siege gun that need to be stationary to fire 48”. If you’re against unshielded heavy armour, the Typhon wins out. If you’re facing Fortifications, the Typhon’s Strength will make a bigger difference. It’s also going to be a more reliable counter to elite infantry, with guaranteed 3W.
Typhon is pretty harder to kill than the Spartan, not only due to higher T/W but also the fact that it’s not going to zoom off into a killing field to deliver a score of Berzerkers, exposing itself to plasma double taps or close range Melta.
Honestly, I’m inclined to favour the Spartan, as it has the higher threat radius and can drop off my Berzerkers and is cheaper. But I think it’s quite possible to build a viable list around a Typhon. Deep striking psyker with Death Hex will be a handy addition.
Now... I’ve been looking at the Deredeo. That 5++ aura looks really tasty. I’m starting to see AP4/5 in my meta, so my Spartan will probably appreciate the shield. And a single tendril of Cultists or Poxwalkers will gain a lot more endurance. Stomping one of these forwards and tagging two units with a Butcher Cannon Array looks solid to me. Especially for Death Guard, assuming it does benefit from their Legion Trait.
Can't check my book right now but Spartans can take marks right? If so, give them a 5++ or -1 to hit by marking them and casting the relevant spell on them. That approach is more flexible and about 200 points cheaper than a Deredeo who has pretty anaemic damage.
I've had some success with the Lascannon/ML combo on a 'brute, especially in Alpha Legion since they benefit from the -1 to hit outside of 12". Mark them Slaanesh and you can use the Endless Cacophony stratagem in a pinch (although that is usually better used on Noise Marines or Obliterators).
Edit: Nevermind you can't use the stratagem with a 'brute since it specifies Infantry or Bikes. Helbrutes are still decent though.
I run a few helbrutes in my walker gunline, and plas/las and missile works pretty well with Fire Frenzy and a Lord nearby. If you run a few of them it’s good to put a fist or lashers on one of them just in case they get tied up by something. Double gun Brutes won’t kill anything in melee and will need the assistance.
AL and DG Helbrutes look sweet but my WB ones don’t seem to survive very long. The threat of Fire Frenzy seems to make them high priority targets. If I played points, I’d field a couple with cheap loadouts, but my meta is PL so I’d be paying for the fists every time. I just go with Contemptors, even bigger fire magnets and got the W and invuln to make it work.
ZergSmasher wrote: I've had some success with the Lascannon/ML combo on a 'brute, especially in Alpha Legion since they benefit from the -1 to hit outside of 12". Mark them Slaanesh and you can use the Endless Cacophony stratagem in a pinch (although that is usually better used on Noise Marines or Obliterators).
Edit: Nevermind you can't use the stratagem with a 'brute since it specifies Infantry or Bikes. Helbrutes are still decent though.
Helbrutes have their own shoot twice strategem thats only 1 CP, so it can be used alongside endless cacophony at a bargain.
ZergSmasher wrote: I've had some success with the Lascannon/ML combo on a 'brute, especially in Alpha Legion since they benefit from the -1 to hit outside of 12". Mark them Slaanesh and you can use the Endless Cacophony stratagem in a pinch (although that is usually better used on Noise Marines or Obliterators).
Edit: Nevermind you can't use the stratagem with a 'brute since it specifies Infantry or Bikes. Helbrutes are still decent though.
Helbrutes have their own shoot twice strategem thats only 1 CP, so it can be used alongside endless cacophony at a bargain.
Endless Cacophony only applies to infantry and bikers I believe, so Helbrutes can only shoot twice with Fire Frenzy or up to 3 times a turn if Crazed goes off on top of that.
So how are people building World Eaters? Just pure CSM or with a detachment of daemons to go along? I've just played two games at the moment. One 1k and one 1.5k. My 1k list is just Kharne with 9 Berzerkers with axe and sword in a Land Raider and a Lord with a pair of L.Claws with another group of 9 Berzerkers in a Rhino. Both Zerker units have Icons too. And to get it to 1500pts I added a detachment with a Prince with Wings, 10 Bloodletters with Icon and Instrument and 4 Crushers with Icon and Instrument. In the second game I was up against GK with some Iron Hands and I felt that the bloodletters was I bit slow. Was thinking maby in future games I fly the Prince forward and summon the Bloodlettters with him or should I forgo them all together and bring something else and maby bring them as a 20 squad in a 2k game?
For World Eaters, I'm not sure but what if you're going to ally in Daemons, take an Outrider with a Juggerherald of Khorne and 3 squads of Khornedogs. They aren't as good for their points in 8th edition, but they can Deny the Witch, something World Eaters lack other than an artifact and a stratagem. To me, seems like a decent way to beat at least some psychic heavy lists. I'll have to tinker with a list involving them.
We can all stop worrying about Conscript spam, Comissars have been nerfed to Lb buff + morale reroll. Inflict 8 casualties and every one after that will be double. 20 will wipe out the unit, Insane Bravery notwithstanding.
lindsay40k wrote: We can all stop worrying about Conscript spam, Comissars have been nerfed to Lb buff + morale reroll.
I heard, and it's awesome! Now Conscripts are just cheaper Cultists without weapon options. I think they'll still be around, they just won't be nearly as obnoxious or ubiquitous.
Daemon Outriders are excellent support for World Eaters - the DTW support will be good, Flesh Hounds are a good unit that used to be great (10W and 15 S5 attacks is pretty decent for a minimum size unit), and the Herald can ride with a Juggerlord behind a Rhino full of Possessed and give them all a S buff.
It’s a shame Karanak lost his buff ability, you’d think he did something to his pack.
Bloodletters... eh. T3 on a melee unit that can’t teleport or ride in anything. They’re for Summoning when defending against Astartes in Narrative games.
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?
Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.
(snip)
It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.
Firstly, thanks for taking the time to pen that post, I'm a fellow Word Bearers player who really used to love daemons (granted, we're talking back in the 3.5dex that everyone else hated). When our codex dropped with the stratagem and the summoning rules, I was very keen to give them a go, and found them completely underwhelming. I'm considering leaving the daemons at home unless I have the points to build a full detachment without compromising any of the mainstream CSM choices I want to take. I agree that likely the only viable way to get the daemons on the table is by deep-striking in a character with a guardian unit, but of course you're committing a lot of points to that strategy and if it works... what are the daemons going to kill in your opponents back field?
I'm especially torn because the only way I can take daemons outside of a seperate detachment without throwing away the legion bonus for being a CSM army is by summoning.
I'm really hopeful that the daemon 'dex will allow them to arrive from reserve if they're bought in your army list like any other unit - I don't mind not being able to choose with daemons get summoned as I roll the dice, I just want to be able to use them as summoned forces and not have them ruin my legion benefits!
Mr.Pengwinn wrote: Is summoning viable at all? I've been looking to start a new army and had been look at the various chaos factions for awhile now. Summoning is my jam in most games I play, but I seem to recall their being some issues with it in 8th. Can summoning work? I see Word Bearers have a summoning stratagem. Can I do dumb stuff like deepstriking a Sorc and have him summon a Bloodthirster?
Summoning is probably OP in Open & Narrative Play (definitely OP if you’re defending anything), in Matched Play it’s... eh, a gimmick. You can see it as a flexible sideboard of unspent points, but every unit you Summon means another character forfeited their movement phase; losing move>summon has hurt hard. Best utility is for a firebase, bulwarking your screen where it’s weakened or bringing the appropriate unit to deal with the enemy’s big push, and reducing your number of units to deploy. BUT this also means fewer models on the board at the start, losing whatever Detachment bonuses Daemons end up getting, and it’s not much use for a rushdown. Can be handy if you don’t want enough Daemons to make a Detachment but don’t want to lose Legion traits.
(snip)
It’s all very gimmicky and reliant on a second half push playing catch up with your first turn paradrops and gunners. I’m hoping that the Hellblade ploy will be a cheap enough buy-in that the whole business is viable, as I really do want to use my Legion Stratagem.
Firstly, thanks for taking the time to pen that post, I'm a fellow Word Bearers player who really used to love daemons (granted, we're talking back in the 3.5dex that everyone else hated). When our codex dropped with the stratagem and the summoning rules, I was very keen to give them a go, and found them completely underwhelming. I'm considering leaving the daemons at home unless I have the points to build a full detachment without compromising any of the mainstream CSM choices I want to take. I agree that likely the only viable way to get the daemons on the table is by deep-striking in a character with a guardian unit, but of course you're committing a lot of points to that strategy and if it works... what are the daemons going to kill in your opponents back field?
I'm especially torn because the only way I can take daemons outside of a seperate detachment without throwing away the legion bonus for being a CSM army is by summoning.
I'm really hopeful that the daemon 'dex will allow them to arrive from reserve if they're bought in your army list like any other unit - I don't mind not being able to choose with daemons get summoned as I roll the dice, I just want to be able to use them as summoned forces and not have them ruin my legion benefits!
So, great points about an entirely underused mechanic.
I played around with summoning at the start of 8th and found it to be inferior to deep striking. With deep strike, you don't need to worry about rolling, you don't need to worry about how many points of models you can bring on, you don't need to skip movement for the summoner, etc. All that, plus the question of what they are actually going to kill, made it hard for me to continue doing it.
I'd like to get back to summoning, tho. Where I did find it to be useful is in combination with bikers. Didn't get many chances to test this tactic, but I'd have 2 squads of bikers and a CL, he would summon Bloodletters, and now my bikers were free to sit there and shoot stuff without the threat of being charged. I used it with Abaddon once (since his shooting doesn't add much) to bring on 20 Bloodletters, his reroll aura makes them nasty.
@techsoldaten - Abaddon’s re-roll aura is for BLACK LEGION only, Bloodletter won’t ever benefit from it.
Only useful Summon I’ve done was some Plageubearers to fill a gap in my screen, and a few Heralds to cast spells. I usually take a Battalion with Nurglings and an Outriders with Karanak. I’ll add Horrors when they get PL balancing when Splitting. I do think that Summoning helps a firebase, but it’s not really viable for rushdown.
Actually, Horrors are ridiculous. There’s a reason nobody bothers with pinkies, isn’t there? You need to bring a unit’s worth of Reinforcement Points, which means you have less stuff in play than your opponent, and if your opponent just avoids the pinkies then you don’t get to use those points, and if you say h*ck it and use them for Summoning, your opponent can then shoot up the pinkies without fear of them splitting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Correction: 80pts of Pink Horrors’ kids and grandkids cost 160pts.
That’s just ridiculous for a secondary cost to pay for an ability that might not even be used.
lindsay40k wrote: @techsoldaten - Abaddon’s re-roll aura is for BLACK LEGION only, Bloodletter won’t ever benefit from it.
Yeah, I know that now. Didn't really have the rules down in the early days of 8th.
The point remains, dropping a screen in front of bikers can be useful. How useful, I'm not sure, but it's nice to be able to ride up with a couple plasma guns and know you are not going to be immediately charged.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Loopstah wrote: Running Black Legion and I want a couple of Squads of each type of Cult Marine.
Noise marines and Berzerkers are pretty simple but what's the best way to set up Rubrics and Plague Marines now they have fancy options?
Assume I have two squads of 10 for each.
Rubrics - eh... they like to be within 24 inches. I had a hard time making that work with rerolls. Moving them up in a Rhino, disembarking, having Abaddon DS to give them rerolls, it's a lot of moving parts for something that costs as much as they do. Hard to fit more than 2 squads into a 2,000 point list.
I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid. The issue is that they are slow and can't project their damage nearly as well as other shooty CSM units like Noise Marines. Both units probably need to take transports anyway but maybe an argument can be made for the NMs to footslog. I think if bolter Rubrics were 1 or 2 points less they'd be seriously good.
saint_red wrote: I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid.
Actually, it's not solid at all.
Noise marines (with Sonic blasters) outdamage Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) at all range except under 12", and even there, it's conditional. If the target is in cover Noise marines have the advantage. And as you said, Noise marines don't *need* a Rhino, contrary to Rubrics.
Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) are only good at one thing : tanking D1 weapons. If you want to deal damage with Rubrics, you need Warpflamers or Soulreapers (limited to 1 per 5 RM unfortunately).
Maths for those interested :
RM vs MEQ at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.22 unsaved = 0.011 damage / point
RM vs MEQ at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.44 unsaved = 0.022 damage / point
NM vs MEQ at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0175 damage / point
RM vs Orks at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0166 damage / point
RM vs Orks at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.66 unsaved = 0.033 damage / point
NM vs Orks at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.833 unsaved = 0.044 damage / point
Against GEQ RM average 0.022 / 0.044 dmg / pt and Noise marines 0.047.
Yeah, I’m working to a similar ‘twenty of everything’ plan with my Cult Marines, and my Rubricae are going to be one squad of ten with Flamers and one rifles, both in Rhinos. One acts as a counter to hordes and deepstikers, the other drives over to an objective in a ruin and sits on it whilst the rest of the army keeps it safe from Dnot1 attacks.
Plague Marines, I’m not certain. One squad will be shooty, boltguns and Blight Launchers. (DG will get Plasma, but WB have less synergy.) The other, probably Plague Spewers and the melee gear? Melta feels a bit better, but I’d like to employ their unique weapon. Probably put both in a Rhino - their ranges and movement aren’t ideal for a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis, with T5 & DR they seem best suited to take & hold a forwards objective.
saint_red wrote: I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid.
Actually, it's not solid at all.
Noise marines (with Sonic blasters) outdamage Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) at all range except under 12", and even there, it's conditional. If the target is in cover Noise marines have the advantage. And as you said, Noise marines don't *need* a Rhino, contrary to Rubrics.
Rubric marines (with Inferno Bolters) are only good at one thing : tanking D1 weapons. If you want to deal damage with Rubrics, you need Warpflamers or Soulreapers (limited to 1 per 5 RM unfortunately).
Maths for those interested :
RM vs MEQ at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.22 unsaved = 0.011 damage / point
RM vs MEQ at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.44 unsaved = 0.022 damage / point
NM vs MEQ at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0175 damage / point
RM vs Orks at 24" : 1 shot, 0.66 hit, 0.33 wound, 0.33 unsaved = 0.0166 damage / point
RM vs Orks at 12" : 2 shots, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wound, 0.66 unsaved = 0.033 damage / point
NM vs Orks at all ranges : 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.833 unsaved = 0.044 damage / point
Against GEQ RM average 0.022 / 0.044 dmg / pt and Noise marines 0.047.
Actually, that maths proves exactly what I said. Rubrics outclass NMs against MEQs in rapid fire range. They are more than 25% better per point.
Against TEQs the Rubrics do *double* the damage of NMs in rapid fire range, which equates to about 85% more damage per point.
If you take Rubrics you need to get them within 12" and make sure they are going after targets that they are good at dealing with. If you are hunting guardsmen or orks with them then you are doing it wrong. Remember that with VotLW you can hunt tanks and other high toughness 2+/3+ models with good results.
Rubrics might get more kills on MEQs at close range, but the NMs then do an Endless Cacophony and wreck another unit, without having to get within range of the vanguard veterans hiding behind the wall.
If I’m hunting Terminators and getting up close and personal, I can’t help but feel that our own Terminators are more efficient than RM. Combi Plasma and LC or CF, or Warpflame Combi Bolters and PS.
Rubric riflemen feel like something you put in a ruin and get into firefights. Deploy them in a Rhino, then castle up somewhere with little D2 firepower.
NMs might do an Endless Cacophony and wreck another unit, but then they get shot off the board and lose firepower. The Rubrics get shot at, absorb the firepower, negate it through the power of laughter, then continue firing.
lindsay40k wrote: Rubrics might get more kills on MEQs at close range, but the NMs then do an Endless Cacophony and wreck another unit, without having to get within range of the vanguard veterans hiding behind the wall.
If I’m hunting Terminators and getting up close and personal, I can’t help but feel that our own Terminators are more efficient than RM. Combi Plasma and LC or CF, or Warpflame Combi Bolters and PS.
Rubric riflemen feel like something you put in a ruin and get into firefights. Deploy them in a Rhino, then castle up somewhere with little D2 firepower.
Endless Cacophony is 2CP though to use. You really need to take the limited resources into consideration.
saint_red wrote: Actually, that maths proves exactly what I said.
Hmm no. The maths prove that Inferno bolters utterly suck. They get outdamaged by a unit that's not supposed to be good against MEQ/TEQ at all ranges except 12", which requires a Rhino. If you factor the Rhino in their cost, the Inferno bolters RM performance is abysmal. They're only 40% better than Noise marines against TEQ.
If you want damage from Rubrics marines, take Warpflamers. The range difference is only 4", they still need a Rhino to do anything, but their damage output is 59% greater (vs Inferno bolters) against MEQ, TEQ, GEQ or Orks AND they get to Overwatch with their full damage.
saint_red wrote: I love the idea of bolter Rubrics and their mathhammer damage is really solid. The issue is that they are slow and can't project their damage nearly as well as other shooty CSM units like Noise Marines.
Seems like it's exactly what I said.
Their damage is good; their projection is not. Of course Rapid Fire weapons aren't as effective outside Rapid Fire range, not sure what your point is there.
Moving on, any further thoughts on the best walkers? I have got my hands on a Decimator that I've been using with a flamer claw + storm laser and I've been really impressed. Having the Daemon keyword opens up Daemonforge and you can make them Tzeentch to benefit from the Changeling. They seem like a clear upgrade over Contemptors and Helbrutes to me.
I'll have to disagree there.
Bolter rubrics are great.
Not so much due to firepower, as stated the noise boys outgun then
But the fact that unlike noise boys, they can take a serius beating.
Damage output is not just how much you can do per shooting phase, but how many shooting phases you can get. Rubrics get more.
Plus, they are really good meatshields for the brutal soulreaper
In all my 8th games so far, the only time my rubrics failed me was against a slannesh daemon army. (I was NOT prepared for that FW keeper of secret character monster thing)
As for walkers, I found scourge+twinheavybolter to be very effective.
Cheap enough to just throw forward, hits hard enough in CC to get the job done, and throws enough shooting dice that it gets some hits while moving.
Would like to try a decimator though.
Yeah. I’ve got a couple of Contemptors that I rarely mothball in favor of Helbrutes, but the Decimator is the one that really looks lit. Two Soulburner Petards with a Lord providing rerolls might just be my answer to a local FW arms race.
Changeling aura or boosting Epidemius looks like great synergy.
All that said, I’m finding Butcher Cannon to be a nice way to force the enemy to burn 2CP to keep some heavy weapons in play, and when mounted on a Deredeo the 5++ aura could do some serious lifting. Cultists become nearly as tough as when hiding in cover in 7ed, high AP anti-tank weapons get nerfed. I’d probably prioritise an endurance spell on it as that sort of thing is a big fire magnet.
Try out a soulburner on the decimator some time, it is worth the price tag. I think Decimators are up there with Leviathans for usefulness. Plop prescience on a soulburner decimator and lay out the damage. 10" move and assault weapons make up for the short range.
Just won a local tournament with decimators with soulburners and claws as the focus. They are very points effecient, good in all phases and don't degrade. Can't recommend them enough.
With the price increase they got in the FAQ I was thinking that the Soulburners weren't going to be worth their points, but I'll have to re-jig my list a bit and try one out.
I only have the DV Helbrute so I am thinking at some point I'll buy a proper one and try it with fist + scourge or maybe HBs + scourge. I think the best way of using our walkers is to keep them versatile so they'll be a threat to lots of units, so I do like the idea of the heavy bolters. The Decimator is probably a bit better though because it has access to assault weapons which is really good for running Renegades with the advance, shoot and charge you can pull off.
buddha, how many Decimators did you have in your list? I can see myself running another one, but probably not more than that.
Gonna agree on the decimators with petards. They are a direct answer to Magnus and Mortarion and anything else that relies on saves or high toughness. They’re only a little more survivable than a helbrute but stand much taller, so it’s hard to keep them alive if your opponent knows what they can do.
I usually run some big flashy thing like a Lord of Skulls to stomp around and draw all the fire while a couple Decimators stroll behind him and do all the real work.
saint_red wrote: With the price increase they got in the FAQ I was thinking that the Soulburners weren't going to be worth their points, but I'll have to re-jig my list a bit and try one out.
I only have the DV Helbrute so I am thinking at some point I'll buy a proper one and try it with fist + scourge or maybe HBs + scourge. I think the best way of using our walkers is to keep them versatile so they'll be a threat to lots of units, so I do like the idea of the heavy bolters. The Decimator is probably a bit better though because it has access to assault weapons which is really good for running Renegades with the advance, shoot and charge you can pull off.
buddha, how many Decimators did you have in your list? I can see myself running another one, but probably not more than that.
I ran two but I had target saturation with other demon engines and demon princes. Even for the players who understood the danger they are survivable thanks to the demon save and infernal regeneration. Wasn't a game they didn't survive at least two or more turns.
So just getting back into the game, today I picked up the CSM codex (to go with my Death Guard).
Reading through it, I like a lot of the stuff!
That said, do ya'll find mixing detachments (like 1 DG detachment/1 CSM detachment) to work better or focus on a single dex? Also, which legion do you find works best for you? Alpha Legions -1 to hit seems pretty nice, especially with all the heavy shooting armies, or Renegade Legions for the Advance + Charge. I was thinking of taking a Hammer and Anvil approach; DG Detachment focused solely on holding down objectives and being hard to move, with CSM backing them up with Havoks and vehicles.
Also, Forgefiends; yey or nay? I really love the model, and he seems like he can put out a lot of hurt.
So just getting back into the game, today I picked up the CSM codex (to go with my Death Guard).
Reading through it, I like a lot of the stuff!
That said, do ya'll find mixing detachments (like 1 DG detachment/1 CSM detachment) to work better or focus on a single dex? Also, which legion do you find works best for you? Alpha Legions -1 to hit seems pretty nice, especially with all the heavy shooting armies, or Renegade Legions for the Advance + Charge. I was thinking of taking a Hammer and Anvil approach; DG Detachment focused solely on holding down objectives and being hard to move, with CSM backing them up with Havoks and vehicles.
Also, Forgefiends; yey or nay? I really love the model, and he seems like he can put out a lot of hurt.
Multiple Detachments is very good. More CPs. More Strategems. More relics.
^ bear in mind Relics are unlocked by your Warlord, of which you only get one. If you want more Relics, you use a Strategem to unlock them - and they’re only coming out of the Warlord’s Codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Multiple detachments works great, I’m mainly inclined to recommend an AL-DG-Daemons coalition, though really the best thing is to collect what you like the look of and think you.l enjoy leading into battle in future editions, rather than ‘whoa, in this current rules set they’re really powerful’.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Experimental list I’m ruminating on:
200 PL, 12 CP, 12 RP’s
DEATH GUARD OUTRIDERS
Typhus: Blades of Putrefaction, Putrescent Vitality
10 Poxwalkers
Tallyman
Bloat-drone
Blight-hauler
Blight-hauler
WORD BEARERS SPEARHEAD
Warpsmith: Combi-flamer
Maulerfiend of Nurgle: Magma Cutters
Maulerfiend of Nurgle: Lasher Tendrils
Forgefiend of Nurgle: three Ectoplasma Cannon
Forgefiend of Nurgle: Hades Autocannons, Ectoplasma Cannon
Heldrake Of Nurgle: Baleflamer
WORD BEARERS OUTRIDERS
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Prescience, Warptime, Force Sword, Combi-Plasma
1 Spawn of Nurgle
10 Warp Talons of Nurgle
5 Raptors of Nurgle: 2 Plasma, Combi-Plasma, Power Fist, Icon of Despair
WORD BEARERS BATTALION
Sorcerer on Palanquin: Miasma Of Pestilence, Death Hex
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: Wings, Sword, Diabolic Strength, appropriate Warlord Trait - probably Voice of Lorgar
20 Cultists
20 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Possessed Of Nurgle: Icon of Despair
Obliterators of Nurgle
Rhino: Havoc Launcher
It uses the models I have and want to use, and is based on three ploys:
- Poxwalkers advance behind Cultists, use stratagems to avoid fire and grow to a tidal wave, Typhus joins in when they make contact and gives them lots of buffs plus their hit bonuses from size and Tallyman
- Almost everything else feeds and is buffed by Epidemius
- Sorcerer and paratroops jump in on first turn, Summon GUO second turn
It’s a gimmicky fluff list that’ll be used for casual games.
Could potentially drop GUO Summoning gimmick for Mutilators and a Dark Apostle for +1CP.
I was under the Impression you can get your Free relic from the Warlords detachment, and then if you have a second detachment (Like Death Guard and CSM) you can use Gifts of Decay, or Gifts of Chaos respectively to take another relic.
From the DGFAQ:
Q: If my army is led by a Chaos Space Marines Warlord, and
I have a Detachment of Death Guard, can I use the Gifts of
Decay Death Guard Stratagem to include a Relic on a Death
Guard Character?
A: Yes. The only requirement to have access to
Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the
appropriate Faction. If you have a Death Guard
Detachment, you have access to their Stratagems
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, another useful point to Multiple detachments is different sets of Tactical Objective cards to choose from. The Death Guard ones are terrible. The CSM ones are at least playable.
Changing topic, does anyone think we might see Legion traits expanded to all of our units when Chapter Approved comes out? That seems to be the way things are going with other armies being released.
If so, what units would this benefit most? Most of our best units are infantry or <HELBRUTE> anyway so it wouldn't be too much of a buff.
I’d mainly expect tweaks to rebalance things. Try to make sure none of the Legions feel short-changed. Or a load of alternate Warbands and Renegade Chapters.
Maybe something to make Bloodthirsters and Lords of Change feasible to Summon. Perhaps with some sort of reliability-safety tradeoff. I specifically built a Palanquin Sorcerer to have loads of Wounds to lose to Miscasts, not that he’s likely to stay supported beyond the lifespan of the Index.
Changing topic, does anyone think we might see Legion traits expanded to all of our units when Chapter Approved comes out? That seems to be the way things are going with other armies being released.
If so, what units would this benefit most? Most of our best units are infantry or <HELBRUTE> anyway so it wouldn't be too much of a buff.
The oblit list is listed as #2 there. Presumably it got bumped up in the placements when the Magnus/Morty/RK list got DQ'd.
Changing topic, does anyone think we might see Legion traits expanded to all of our units when Chapter Approved comes out? That seems to be the way things are going with other armies being released.
If so, what units would this benefit most? Most of our best units are infantry or <HELBRUTE> anyway so it wouldn't be too much of a buff.
My God, that 5th place Chaos Soup list... 16 Command Points. Rerolls for days, or any CSM/AL Stratagem he wanted in the Battalion.
I actually like the 2nd place list (the Obliterator spam list) better since it didn't rely on Magnus or Mortarion (or a ton of Malefic Lords) to do the heavy lifting. To me, it was more creative and probably more fun to play against, although 15 Oblits would be enough to ruin anyone's day.
I'm starting to wonder if a Khorne Deamon Prince is worth his weight. I'm already taking Dark Apostle + Exalted Champ to boost my five man Zerker squads to absurd levels (one five man unit took out a Grand Master Dreadknight), the only thing the Deamon Prince does better is hold the Talisman of Burning Blood and get into the enemy's face, buuuut then he gets wrecked. Khorne isn't a defensive army at all and mass casualties are the norm, but 180 points for to punch something only to get punched right back doesn't feel great most of the time.
In other news my deep striking Mutilators nearly killed Voldus in one round of combat. They were murdered in the backswing but still, these melon-fethers hit HARD. Anything without an invul save is going to get murderized.
andysonic1 wrote: I'm starting to wonder if a Khorne Deamon Prince is worth his weight. I'm already taking Dark Apostle + Exalted Champ to boost my five man Zerker squads to absurd levels (one five man unit took out a Grand Master Dreadknight), the only thing the Deamon Prince does better is hold the Talisman of Burning Blood and get into the enemy's face, buuuut then he gets wrecked. Khorne isn't a defensive army at all and mass casualties are the norm, but 180 points for to punch something only to get punched right back doesn't feel great most of the time.
In other news my deep striking Mutilators nearly killed Voldus in one round of combat. They were murdered in the backswing but still, these melon-fethers hit HARD. Anything without an invul save is going to get murderized.
The Khorne Prince is one of the few units I think the internal balance is bad on. 1 extra attack doesn't make up for losing potential powers.
Had he gained maybe 2 attacks sure. 3 migit be overkill.
What is everyone's opinions on Chaos Terminators vs Obliterators? Both units seem good this edition but which one seems more worth taking? Some points for both:
Terminators:
-More reliably consistent shooting with Combi-Plasmas
-Potent in CC -Versatile weapon loadouts
-More models in the unit
-More total wounds in the unit
-Model losses hurt less
Obliterators:
-Daemon keyword
-Higher potential damage output
-No chance of killing themselves from shooting
-More wounds per model
-Cheaper as a unit
-12 shots vs 10 assuming rapid fire range for the Terminators
If you want pure shooting, Oblits are better / cheaper. If you want pure melee, Multilators are better / cheaper. If you want versatility, Terminators are better / more expensive.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I still wouldn't bother with Mutilators. The only thing going for them is a cheaper base cost than Terminators.
World Eater Mutilators are powerful enough to be worth their price; the extra attack on the charge does the trick. The extra wound with 2+/5++ is great for a World Eater unit, and they're cheaper than a fully loaded Terminator unit by at least 100 - 150 points.
Yeah if I wanted pure CC, Maulerfiends, Daemon Princes, and Berzerkers do the job better IMO.
Regarding choosing between Terminators and Obliterators, which would be best in an Alpha Legion list that's looking to do a mix of lots of long and mid range shooting and possibly supplemented with some assault elements?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Yeah if I wanted pure CC, Maulerfiends, Daemon Princes, and Berzerkers do the job better IMO.
Regarding choosing between Terminators and Obliterators, which would be best in an Alpha Legion list that's looking to do a mix of lots of long and mid range shooting and possibly supplemented with some assault elements?
For Alpha Legion I'd go Obliterators. Then you stay in the sweet spot.
Also did anyone look at Renegade Obliterators for gaks and giggles? You can fire their guns while advancing and then charge after the fact. Not great but pretty hilarious. S5 attacks will do something I guess right?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Yeah if I wanted pure CC, Maulerfiends, Daemon Princes, and Berzerkers do the job better IMO.
Regarding choosing between Terminators and Obliterators, which would be best in an Alpha Legion list that's looking to do a mix of lots of long and mid range shooting and possibly supplemented with some assault elements?
For Alpha Legion I'd go Obliterators. Then you stay in the sweet spot.
Also did anyone look at Renegade Obliterators for gaks and giggles? You can fire their guns while advancing and then charge after the fact. Not great but pretty hilarious. S5 attacks will do something I guess right?
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Yeah if I wanted pure CC, Maulerfiends, Daemon Princes, and Berzerkers do the job better IMO.
Regarding choosing between Terminators and Obliterators, which would be best in an Alpha Legion list that's looking to do a mix of lots of long and mid range shooting and possibly supplemented with some assault elements?
For Alpha Legion I'd go Obliterators. Then you stay in the sweet spot.
Also did anyone look at Renegade Obliterators for gaks and giggles? You can fire their guns while advancing and then charge after the fact. Not great but pretty hilarious. S5 attacks will do something I guess right?
with ap0 guess they dont do alot
Little over 1 Marine dead and little over 2 Guard dead. So yeah it isn't much but you have the option haha
So I just played a couple of games against my friend, using my Alpha Legion list. He actually had a couple of lists he was considering for a tournament that's coming up a week from Saturday (which I'm also trying to prepare a list for). The first list was Cadian Astra Militarum, the second was Primaris Marines with Guilliman. We tried out a couple of the new ITC missions (which are much better than the old ones IMO).
My list was the following:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Sorcerer on Bike: Mark of Slaanesh, Force Axe
Sorcerer on Bike: Mark of Slaanesh, Force Stave
Troops:
13 Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
10 Cultists: Autoguns, Mark of Slaanesh
Detachment 2: Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor: Mark of Slaanesh, Combi-plasma, Power Fist
Heavy Support:
9 Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh, Lascannon, 3x Autocannon
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh
Detachment 3: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Lord Arkos
Elites:
8 Chosen: Mark of Slaanesh, 5x Plasmagun, Combi-plasma
10 Noise Marines: 8x Sonic Blaster, 2x Blastmaster, Icon of Excess
Helbrute: Twin Lascannon, Missile Launcher
Helbrute: Multi-melta, Helbrute Fist
Total 2000 points
My opponent's Astra Militarum list was this:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Company Commander: Kurov's Aquila
Company Commander: The Lost Cadian Relic Thingy
Troops:
10 Infantry
10 Infantry
22 Conscripts
Heavy Support:
3 Heavy Weapon Teams with Lascannons
3 Heavy Weapon Teams with Lascannons
3 Heavy Weapon Teams with Autocannons
Detachment 2: Spearhead Detachment
HQ:
Knight Commander Pask: Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Plasma Sponsons
Heavy Support:
2x LR Executioners with Lascannons and Plasma Sponsons
2x LR Executioners with Lascannons and Plasma Sponsons
3x Wyverns with Heavy Bolters
3x Wyverns with Heavy Bolters
We got the deployment map with the long table edges that taper in toward the center. I infiltrated the Noise Marines and Chosen, as well as Arkos. I put the Oblits and Termie Lord in the teleportarium. He ended up going first and I failed to sieze. I won't do a detailed report, but over the course of the game I managed to kill all of his Russes except Pask (who escaped thanks to some lucky rolls), one of the Wyverns, all of the regular Infantry and Conscripts, and the Autocannon teams. He killed all but my Terminator Lord, and I lost. He was frustrated by the -1 to hit from the Alpha Legion trait, but he just had way too many shots. Good saves and modifiers just can't beat the sheer weight of dice. Technically points-wise the game was quite close (26-22, IIRC) as the secondary missions are great for allowing even underdog armies to at least not get zeroed out. I think with a bit more luck and a little better play I probably could have won that one. Alpha Legion is quite solid and has a decent chance of beating AM (who are definitely not as invincible as some people try to claim).
I just realized going back over it that my opponent's list for the second game was actually probably illegal. He had Guilliman, Celestine, 2 10-man Intercessor squads, a 10-man Hellblaster squad, Tigurius, 2 Primaris Librarians, a Primaris Ancient with the relic banner, a 5-man Scout squad, a Culexus Assassin, and a Callidus Assassin. I'm not sure what the detachments were, but I can't see how they fit into a legal list without giving up the Chapter Tactics he was rocking. He had like 10 Command Points, which tracks if he had a Vanguard Detachment (which he could have, but could not then have the relic banner).
Anyways, this game went much worse for me, as way too many of my units died too quickly. Celestine jumped across the board and into my face turn 1. I managed to put her down in my turn, but she just came back and attacked me again 2 turns later. Arkos tried and failed to drop her a second time and ended up just dying himself. I definitely think people underestimate the power of Primaris Marines; those suckers can take hits like there is no tomorrow, meaning that if you really want to kill them you need to point some multiple damage weapons at them. Even psychic powers won't hurt them that much since they can each soak up two wounds.
My takeaway on the units I ran:
Noise Marines: Very solid unit and great for eliminating pesky Conscripts, Cultists, and other fodder troops. Not great against vehicles or anything with a good armor save, though. The Music of the Apocalypse ability is kickass, though!
Chosen with plasma: Another solid choice, but they will be a priority target so protect them!
Cultists: Good for bubblewrap/objective camping, but not much else. The Tide of Traitors stratagem is amusing on them, especially on larger units than I was running.
Havocs: The loadout I was using is suboptimal, but not awful. I think they can do work if properly supported and if they can find a worthwhile target. I just couldn't roll well with them, which was at least partly a luck thing.
Obliterators: They were really amazing in the first game, but didn't really get much of a chance in the second. I'll definitely be running them again!
Arkos: Disappointing. The extra CP was nice, but not worth the price tag. His weapons are only good if he gets close, and then he loses the AL trait, although he still gets -1 to be hit from his own ability. I might give him another chance at some point, but probably not in competitive play.
Sorcerers: They never fail to make their presence felt. The CSM powers are really solid, and putting them on bikes really increases the threat/utility range. I hope they don't kill the Index too soon, as I really like using these models.
Helbrutes: Not great. The DV one is utter trash. He might be good in a casual environment but not in a heavy-duty cutthroat tournament setting. The other one I ran did a little better in the second game (both died turn 1 in the first game). Maybe in some lists Helbrutes can do good work, or against some opponents, but not today.
Termie Lord: He was decent. His rerolls of 1's to hit is great, and the fact that he can drop in wherever he's needed is great. It might be better to run a cheap JP one instead of the terminator armor, though, but I love the Termie model!
Next time, I might go ahead and try Berzerkers again. I think I just haven't been running them right before, so now I'll give them a more fair chance. I also want to add in some Malefic Lords for extra Smite power. I really want to be competitive, so I'm going to keep on trying to find a combo of units that works. These games today really helped me figure out what's working and what isn't, and my opponent offered some great suggestions based on lists he's faced as well.
Got a question. I read that astra militarium has sentinals with scout move. Have a question.
Let's say I am playing Alpha legion, and I use forward operative on a bunch of cultists purely to limit his scouts movement. My forward operative cultists will deploy before he gets to scout move his sentinels ?
Biggest trouble I have when trying to persuade myself to take my Mutilators is the squad size. Three. No more, no less. A couple of singles made for interesting distraction carnifexes in casual play. Seven Power is affordable, BUT it’s also such a small unit and they have such poor base movement that there’s almost always going to be a better target for Warptime, meaning they’re far less likely to make the charge than the five Terminators who feel like an investment more worth warptiming into a fight and whose icon of Wrath helps them along.
Really not sure how to use them well. Maybe teleport them out of sight on an objective where Nurglings have secured a landing zone? Even in that semi-gimmick role, why not just use Oblits? If I want to get a third Elite in a Vanguard, three more power for a Contemptor or four for a Decimator feels much better. At three attacks of uncertain might a piece and only three in a squad, can’t see myself likely to throw 2CP at these supposed ultra-brawlers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ZergSmasher: what was your Ultramarines opponent doing with those Librarians? Tigurius is ok but I look at Librarius and it seems pretty weak... though that might be because my frame of reference is Warptime, Prescience, and Death Hex
lindsay40k wrote: @ZergSmasher: what was your Ultramarines opponent doing with those Librarians? Tigurius is ok but I look at Librarius and it seems pretty weak... though that might be because my frame of reference is Warptime, Prescience, and Death Hex
He actually took Might of Heroes and Veil of Time on both of them, for redundancy. He mainly cast Might of Heroes on Bobby G.
what is the reason to play plague drones in a list like the disqualified one at Socal? They should take some punishment but their damage output is ridicolous, they kill almost nothing, why not a DP for example or 30 demonettes?
Really enjoying mixed CSM / R&H lists right now. Finally got around to building some Earthshaker batteries. Played my last 3 games with them and am impressed with what they do.
I just put them behind buildings and let them wound everything from afar. Cultist bubblewrap + Obliterator deep strike makes it almost impossible for opponents to respond.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Plague drones are 1 pt more than a Spawn. While Im stuck using Spawn since they were my main escort in 7th, Drones seem to do that role much better.
escort of what? in that list they escort nothing and btw spawn hits heavier than drones.
Didn't see the list. But a plague drone can escort and keep up with a daemon prince. I referred to escorting as in 7th edition, with a Biker lord when Spawn were king. Spawn hit harder than drones, with - 2 and 2 damage, but I rather take the safety of a 5++, 5+++, a shooting attack, and Fly for one point more.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Plague drones are 1 pt more than a Spawn. While Im stuck using Spawn since they were my main escort in 7th, Drones seem to do that role much better.
escort of what? in that list they escort nothing and btw spawn hits heavier than drones.
Spawn hit harder for sure, but they can't take hits like Plague Drones can. T5 5++/5+++ is pretty durable. And they hit hard enough, even if its not as hard as a Spawn. For heavy hitting, that's what the Primarch Bros. and Knight were for, presumably.
But to be fair, he wasn't charging Kharn, he was charging another unit who happened to be within 3 inches of Kharn, so I got to heroic intervention Kharn into battle as well. Not that it made much of a difference, I was close to being tabled already at that point in the game because I was trying so hard to run a world eaters list against a shooty list. Kharn actually made it across the table and reached the enemy battle lines in the end, but he was one model, he couldn't catch and kill every single heavy support all by himself. And I simply didn't have much left (the rest had been all shot to bits).
)
16 Command Points. Rerolls for days, or any 
