Actually just regular Hellbrutes - Sonic Dread must be both Emperor's Children and Slaanesh, so can't be in (let alone affected by bonus the rule for) Death Guard Detachments.
Not for the Fire Frenzy stratagem. You can use that anyway. And two Blastmasters firing twice is just nasty.
As far as Bikes go, they have a lot of potential. Between the extra wound, and the toughness 5 they already had, they are possibly more durable against small arms fire than Terminators(have not done the math on this, just a first glance opinion.). Of course, they are also expensive. The only unit whose models cost more base are Terminators, and they don't have to slog across the board when they can just teleport to where they need to be. Sure, that 14" move is pretty nice, and 20", if you are going that route, is even better. But if you only purchase the first three bikes, then every time someone shoots at them, you will cringe. And every failed save will hurt that much more.
When I run them like that, I run them with melta-guns. It is expensive for three models, but it is very good at putting three melta shots exactly where I want them: right in my opponent's biggest vehicle. Of course they tend to die not long after, but now they are diverting precious firepower away from the bulk of my army. And with the way cover works in this edition, if you can squeeze those three precious models into area terrain, then your opponent really does need to focus fire you down if he wants his vehicles to survive long. I usually use the combi-bolter on the bike for larger units anyway. You can take it and the melta too on the non-champion bikes.
Also, getting close too genestealers with a unit meant for speed, and getting around the tabletop was probably your first mistake. If you absolutely have to fight them in melee range(this applies to counter-charge too), then you want to use a unit that can fight them in melee for at least a turn. Or a disposable bit of Cultists that can suffer the loss and leave them open for a round of shooting later.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: Interesting views on the Helbrutes, seems to be a popular unit! Though the sonic blaster version still seems the most popular, I see a few of you do enjoy the pure fists/whips option as well. I haven't added up the points for that one yet, but I guess it becomes more valuable if you have other distraction units to soak up fire.
What would be the advantages of running a contemptor over a helbrute or a decimator? Is the contemptor survivable / deadly enough to be worth the added points?
Edit: Also, what would be the optimum Decimator build? Someone mentioned mortal wounds, but the Soulburner Petard is extremely expensive now... is it still work it's points now that it makes the decimator more expensive than a contemptor? Think its 210pts for a double petard decimator, for 4-12 mortal wounds a turn
You are right on the Decimator point value, friend. I do not own either of these models (skipped straight to my Leviathan) but If I were to run a Decimator, it would have double Soulbrners. And it would always be behind a screen of troops so it couldn't be charged and killed(thing only has 8 wounds; one good, or bad, round of shooting and here she goes). As far as the Contemptor goes, I like the option of taking Ectoplasma Blasters.
Double claws on the Decimator was the build I was thinking about trying. They have both the DAEMON and VEHICLE keywords so you can use Daemonforge on them to blender stuff. They do serious work against high value targets.
As the for the Contemptor, if you take it with double melee weapons (take a claw and fist to save yourself 5 points) and double Soulburners you are doing something like 13-14 wounds to Knight in a single turn. They are considerably more expensive than the other walkers though.
Warpy0013 wrote: Not for the Fire Frenzy stratagem. You can use that anyway. And two Blastmasters firing twice is just nasty.
The Fire Frenzy stratagem isn't usable by units with the Helbrute keyword, it's only usable by the unit Helbrute. Several stratagems specify exact units they work with, like Daemon Prince or Chaos Cultists. When they allow an entire subset of units, the stratagem references a keyword and it is written as such. Helbrute is just another term like Infantry, Cavalry, or Vehicle. The stratagem has to specifically allow this subset if they are to receive the benefits of it, which Fire Frenzy does not do. It's also not likely an error since the Legion Traits in the Chaos Codex do have the Helbrute keyword instead of the unit reference. They make a clear distinction in two different spots in the same book. Likewise, when they FAQ added the Daemon Prince, they did not add the Daemon Prince KEYWORD but specifically the Daemon Prince, which denies other Daemon Princes (like if Be'lakor could be from a legion, or some forgeworld DP) from benefiting. The ForgeWorld FAQ added the Helbrute keyword to various units, which grants them Legion traits, but it still does not work with the Fire Frenzy stratagem.
Non-keyword entries are references to a specific unit. If they weren't, you'd get some rather weird results like the Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer being able to be used for Linebreaker Bombardment, & therefore not able to fire the Demolisher Cannons that they don't have. The stratagem does not reference Vindicator keyword units, it references the Vindicator specifically. Other Vindicators cannot use the stratagem (literally) and the same applies to the Helbrute issue.
I have been running a maulerfiend, bloodslaughter, contemptor with double chainfist and soulburners, and a winged dp pretty much every game and each has done amazing work. Atleast one usually doesnt make it to the enemies lines (which one depends on what my opponent thinks will hurt him the most), but then everything else gets there and causes havoc. I think the mvp is the contemptor; he is really tough and usually makes it to cc even if my opponent focuses on him first. Double chainfist take out anything and the soulburners add some mortal wounds too. The Bloodslaughterer and maulerfiend are very comparable; the bloodslaughterer is a bit faster with a few less attacks, but at higher strength. The winged dp with talons is great (we all know this) and gives rerolls to whatever makes it in to combat with him. Having multiple high priority threats like this really makes them all shine more, since there is really no way my opponent can take them all out before they get in to cc.
I skipped the decimator because of the point increase to the soulburner petard things and went for a leviathan instead. Havent used it in cc yet (havent converted any cc weapons for it yet), but it has done an amazing job as a rifledread with its double butcher cannon arrays. Next buy will be a deredeo dread, then probably a decimator since the model is just so cool.
I'm going to concede to stop this from derailing into a RAW vs RAI debate and explain that the addition of the Helbrute keyword is not what I was referring to. The Sonic Helbrute has no datasheet. It has no rules listing. the only place it is mentioned is in the FAQ section of the FWFAQ.
Q: There is no datasheet for an Emperor’s Children Sonic Dreadnought – is there a datasheet I should use for this model? A: Use the Helbrute datasheet on page 33 of Index: Chaos. It must replace its <Mark of Chaos> keyword with Slaanesh, it must replace its <Legion> keyword with Emperor’s Children, and it has two additional wargear options; it may take a doom siren, and it may replace its multi-melta with two blastmasters.
Until we receive better Errata or clarification, we do not even have an official name for the sonic dreadnought (the FAQ refers to AN Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, not necessarily this one...), because it uses the Helbrute datasheet. If you have recieved official guidance, or want to continue this discusion on a rules thread, then please message me to let me know.
kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote: Anyone had any joy with Chaos Bikers? I tried a unit of six with flamers (2 + a combi-flamer on the Sargent) in my demon engine list but they where underwhelming managing to kill a 4 genestealers before being gobbled up.
I really like the aesthetic of bikers cruising across the board blasting away, But can't seem to make they work.
My next attempt will be 2 * 6 man units (flamers again) to support 2 Bale-drakes in an alpha strike. I'm playing a renegade legion so they can assault after a full 20" move (not that they will do much damage in combat.
I actually ran a unit of 5 Slaanesh bikers with 2 Meltaguns + Combimelta at my most recent tournament. The Slaanesh stratagem worked okay in one game for them, allowing them to take out a Predator even though they advanced that turn. Delightful Agonies also kept them alive longer, although they were focused down and destroyed by some overloading Hellblasters (2 of those Hellblasters blew themselves up despite Guilliman being nearby though ). I think Bikes are pretty solid for Chaos, although I'm not sure Meltas are the best choice for them. Plasma is probably better. Definitely a good idea to mark them Slaanesh and use the double tap stratagem; this could be hilarious against a big blob of Conscripts/Ork Boyz/Cultists while running flamers or something.
I also think bikes are worth a look now that their cost has been reduced. But I would just stick to their original loadouts. At most take one single special weapon. BTW, the bike champion can take a combi bolter on top of the combi bolter attacked to his bike. So, he fires two combi bolters. That's a lot of dakka!
One thing I've noticed that I can hardly believe, is that Chainfists still cost 22 points while Power Fists were reduced to 12. Surely GW can't be stupid enough to have actually intended for those costs to be like that? Why would anyone take a Chainfist for an extra 10 points when all you get is 1 better AP and flat 2 damage over the regular fist?
How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
Nothing but praise for noise marines on this thread, they're probably top 3 troops with berzerkers and cultist (in no paticular order). Although I havent heard of anyone infiltrating 40, let us know how it goes.
Grimgold wrote: Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
Though I don't agree on everything you've written I'd like to see that in the first post of this thread, very good work. I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
Warpy0013 wrote: Not for the Fire Frenzy stratagem. You can use that anyway. And two Blastmasters firing twice is just nasty.
The Fire Frenzy stratagem isn't usable by units with the Helbrute keyword, it's only usable by the unit Helbrute. Several stratagems specify exact units they work with, like Daemon Prince or Chaos Cultists. When they allow an entire subset of units, the stratagem references a keyword and it is written as such. Helbrute is just another term like Infantry, Cavalry, or Vehicle. The stratagem has to specifically allow this subset if they are to receive the benefits of it, which Fire Frenzy does not do. It's also not likely an error since the Legion Traits in the Chaos Codex do have the Helbrute keyword instead of the unit reference. They make a clear distinction in two different spots in the same book. Likewise, when they FAQ added the Daemon Prince, they did not add the Daemon Prince KEYWORD but specifically the Daemon Prince, which denies other Daemon Princes (like if Be'lakor could be from a legion, or some forgeworld DP) from benefiting. The ForgeWorld FAQ added the Helbrute keyword to various units, which grants them Legion traits, but it still does not work with the Fire Frenzy stratagem.
Non-keyword entries are references to a specific unit. If they weren't, you'd get some rather weird results like the Deimos Pattern Vindicator Laser Destroyer being able to be used for Linebreaker Bombardment, & therefore not able to fire the Demolisher Cannons that they don't have. The stratagem does not reference Vindicator keyword units, it references the Vindicator specifically. Other Vindicators cannot use the stratagem (literally) and the same applies to the Helbrute issue.
I'm not following what your getting at here. Yes, the Fire Frenzy stratagem doesn't apply to the units the FW granted the Helbrute keyword too by FAQ. But your wrong on the Sonic Dreadnought which by FAQ is a Helbrute with two additional weapons options. It uses the same Datasheet so it obviously has on the same keywords as the Helbrute excluding the faction Keywords EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and SLAANESH. So, it can use the Fire Frenzy stratagem just fine.
Grimgold wrote: Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
I'd say that Veterans of the Long War was a solid A. Beseech is just a waste of CP, and I wouldn't rate Daemon forge as highly.
Like most of them Daemon forge is situational. But crazy good on a Lord of Skulls. Used it recently to put down Swarm lord with 3 Tyrant guard in one turn of shooting without particularly good rolling.
Sersi wrote: I'm not following what your getting at here. Yes, the Fire Frenzy stratagem doesn't apply to the units the FW granted the Helbrute keyword too by FAQ. But your wrong on the Sonic Dreadnought which by FAQ is a Helbrute with two additional weapons options. It uses the same Datasheet so it obviously has on the same keywords as the Helbrute excluding the faction Keywords EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and SLAANESH. So, it can use the Fire Frenzy stratagem just fine.
It's a point of contention. Currently the rules aren't explicit as to what the name of the unit is supposed to be. They reference it, define it as, an Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought. Using the Helbrute datasheet doesn't necessarily make it a Helbrute but since we no clear instruction to change the name to Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, I would still allow the interpretation. From an intent standpoint, I think the stratagem was made with a clear idea of what weapons would be firing (ones from the codex the stratagem is pulled from) and the FW/Sonic versions wouldn't apply. If Forgeworld is going to be releasing their own books for these models, they might want to come out with some stratagems too.
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
I play mostly Emperor's Children so I use them as my base troops. Usually msu with blasters and a blastmaster with a screen of cultist around them.
Every game I have taken them in though they do work. Their death ability is great. They put out a lot of dakka. I don't think they are the best endless cacophony targets though especially when you have things like Obliterators and havocs around that can do a lot more damage to targets. But I also don't run them in groups of 20. Which would be 400 points or something close to that per group. Damn.
Maybe try a proxy game with normal marines to see how you like them before going balls to the wall building them.
Grimgold wrote: Hey guys, I'm working on getting my black legion together and tournament worthy (I have a GT in less than a month). So I have spent a fair amount of time cruising this thread, and while there is lots of info here, it's scattered throughout dozens of pages interspersed with rules arguments, and other less helpful post. So I thought it might be helpful to condense the opinions of the board into something more easily perusable, and the way we did it in the necron thread was a report card. So to help me memorize and understand the stratagems I put together a report card for them, You guys think the below is a fair estimation of their effectiveness? Also would there be any interest in doing this for our units?
Spoiler:
DAEMON SHELL - D Pay a CP to get smite, with the risk of doing mortal wounds to yourself. At least you don't have to target the closest, but it will almost always be within 12" because your non-terminator characters will have pistols.
GIFTS OF CHAOS - B/D Legion dependent, some legions have the wargear to make an extra piece of kit worthwhile, but no one has the gear to make 3 cp for 2 extra worthwhile.
BESEECH THE CHAOS GODS - C Allows some flexibility on which strategems a unit can use, but it's only useful for units that where mutiple marks (and the strategems they unlock) might be approriate, So it's situational.
BLASPHEMOUS MACHINES - D I think preadator is the only heritic astartes vehicle that can benefit from this, and the benefit is firmly meh, so a meh ability on a meh unit.
CHAOS BOON - C The activation requirement is pretty common, so it's not hard to get off. It is strongly bell curved with the eye opens being the most likely (and most useful), and none of the buffs are bad, being more or less in line with what one could get for gifts of chaos. I ignore spawndom as a disadvantage because if you are willing to blow a CP on buffing a character, your probably willing to spend a second CP to not kill him. With that said I think this is better for spiking the ball than actually relying on it for a buff.
VETERANS OF THE LONG WAR - B +1 to wound in either shooting or CC is solid. Best when used to offset the disadvantage of attacking units with a high toughness, or to add some extra sting when shooting at units with a low toughness 2+.
FURY OF KHORNE - B Potent, but too expensive to be used frequently. It also happens at the end of the fight phase, which is less than ideal as you will have taken casulties by then. Plenty of special charaters in chaos that can use this to ruin someones day though.
GRANDFATHER’S BLESSINGS - C Heal a special character, or return a hopefully very expensive unit to play (probably a terminator). It's pricey but good when it's useful.
ENDLESS CACOPHONY - A Like fury of khorne but better, and cheaper. This is the reason havoks and obliterators now default to MoS, being able to double tap las cannons or fleshmetal weapons during an alpha strike is an insane advantage.
THE GREAT SORCERER - B Not much good for your namesless psychics, but very open to abuse by named characters who know more powers.
TIDE OF TRAITORS - B Despite thinking that cultist are so so, I think this is a legitimately good stratagem. The ability to psuedo deepstrike an ob sec unit and return it to full stregnth on or near an enemy objective can win games.
LINEBREAKER BOMBARDMENT - D requires three vindicators, which is a non-starter. Would have been a F but the amount of mortal wounds done by it is fairly respectable, and it can be used to snipe. If for some odd reason you have three vindicators (say in an apoc game), might be worth using, but certainly not worth taking three vindicators.
KILLSHOT - D- Requires three preadators, and the payout is a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles. Doesn't seem to justify the investment.
DAEMONFORGE - A the 4+ to hit is really holding most deamon vehicles back from shooting, 1 CP for reroll hits and wounds for a phase goes along way towards making them dangerous at range and beast mode in CC.
CHAOS FAMILIAR - B Flexibility is nice, for instance switching out death curse if your opponent doesn't have any invul saves.
FLAKK MISSILE - D More or less a havok's only stratagem, because it requires more than a single Missile launcher to be worth using, which really isn't ideal. You still have to roll to hit (but you get a +1 which might offset the supersonic rule), and the damage at top level is 4d3 mortal wounds which averages to six, not enough to actually kill a flyer. Like kill shot and linebreaker, if you've made poor comp choices, well here is your boobie prize.
FIRE FRENZY - B Cheap and good, can make a helbrute have the same output as a squad of havok's. Would be an A but it has three major shortcomings, it has to be the closest unit, the helbrute can not move, and it's helbrute only (they tend to go boom when an enemy even looks at them). This stratagem single handedly makes helbrutes not a terrible choice.
FORWARD OPERATIVES - A Very good Stratagem, it gives a unit better than deep strike (since they can move normally after revealing themselves). Use it to gain board position, or to drop off a nasty CC unit right on top of the enemy.
DARK PACT - C I'm not a huge fan of summoning, but a reroll and protection from doubles/triples is useful when you are summoning.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT - D 6+ FnP is pretty unimpressive.
SCORN OF SORCERY - C 50/50 chance of stopping a psychic power and does not even require a character. Obviously only useful against psychers, and powers that are worth a CP to stop.
EXCESS OF VIOLENCE - C Extra attacks are good, and it's cheap, but you have to be laying it down to get more than an extra kill or two out of this. If your kicking that much butt in CC, this is probably not nessecary.
IN MIDNIGHT CLAD - B Solid defensive skill, several times more effective than the iron warriors stratagem.
LET THE GALAXY BURN - B Reroll 1's to hit is a solid CP expendature. It's quite good for chaos space marines (the troop choice), but their shooting isn't impactful enough to warrant a CP expenditure. Might be fun for a 20 man blob of CSM with CCW and pistol to use it in CC, but a 20 man blob of CC focused CSM is probably less than ideal. Though big blobs of CSM seems to be the way GW wants black legion to roll based on their legion trait, this stratagem and abaddons command ability.
Though I don't agree on everything you've written I'd like to see that in the first post of this thread, very good work. I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
Second first paging this, and recommendations. Beseech is trash tier, I'd rank it F as it's paying a CP to get something you could take for free during list construction, it doesn't let you stack Marks, and nobody's thought of a useful gambit/gimmick that uses it.
Flakk Missile only affects a single ML. It's actually not bad if you've got one in a CSM squad, an accuracy buff, and need to take down a crippled aircraft - that would have won it for me a few weeks ago.
Chaos Familiar opens up a ploy where your opponent locks down a Warptime caster and another psyker out of DTW range switches to learn it and throws a Kharybdis into the middle of the enemy army.
Killshot is pretty good but we're awaiting how it relates to Hellforged Predators and fixed damage weapons. 5D6 of D2-3 auto hits could be a game changer.
Vindicator can use Blasphemous Machines.
Scorn of Sorcery can block Magnus casting Smite on a 14, and a Weirdboy casting a winning Da Jump on a 27. That's really good.
New player to CSM here - but since I have Daemon models and I have Space Marines, I figured it was only appropriate to take the next logical step
Do people find Obliterators more or less useful than MSU Chaos Bikers with plasma guns? I'm playing a game later this evening using the Black Legion trait and I can't decide whether I'd like more of one or the other. They seem, at least from my experience, to be roughly equivalent in a lot of ways.
Obliterators have a better armor save, more Wounds per model, better range, more reliable alpha strike via Deep Strike, and their guns will typically have higher strength and damage.
Chaos Bikers have better toughness, more Wounds per point, better mobility, better AP on their guns, and better synergy with the Black Legion Warlord trait.
Am I missing anything here? Anyone have some experience they'd care to share with a new CSM player?
My list + tactics are spoilered below, in case anyone wants to take a look to provide more tailored advice
Spoiler:
100 PL Battallion Detachment
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
Spearhead Detachment
Abaddon the Despoiler
5x Warp Talons
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
Basic strategy is to have Plaguebearers and Princes on the table start of game. If opponent gets turn one, he can't shoot at my Daemon Princes and is forced to shoot at my Plaguebearers with -1 to hit for the turn. When my turn one comes up I advance everything forward (possibly holding back a squad of Plaguebearers for objectives), then Deep Strike in Abaddon + Obliterators + Warp Talons to have everything in opponent's face. My concern with swapping in bikers is that they will potentially give up first blood on turn one, but they're definitely more useful for grabbing objectives late game.
PrinceOfMadness wrote: New player to CSM here - but since I have Daemon models and I have Space Marines, I figured it was only appropriate to take the next logical step
Do people find Obliterators more or less useful than MSU Chaos Bikers with plasma guns? I'm playing a game later this evening using the Black Legion trait and I can't decide whether I'd like more of one or the other. They seem, at least from my experience, to be roughly equivalent in a lot of ways.
Obliterators have a better armor save, more Wounds per model, better range, more reliable alpha strike via Deep Strike, and their guns will typically have higher strength and damage.
Chaos Bikers have better toughness, more Wounds per point, better mobility, better AP on their guns, and better synergy with the Black Legion Warlord trait.
Am I missing anything here? Anyone have some experience they'd care to share with a new CSM player?
My list + tactics are spoilered below, in case anyone wants to take a look to provide more tailored advice
Spoiler:
100 PL Battallion Detachment
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
Daemon Prince w/ Wings:
---Mark of Nurgle, Warp Bolter, 2x Malefic Claws
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
20x Plaguebearers
---Icon, Instrument
Spearhead Detachment
Abaddon the Despoiler
5x Warp Talons
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
3x Obliterators
---Mark of Nurgle
Basic strategy is to have Plaguebearers and Princes on the table start of game. If opponent gets turn one, he can't shoot at my Daemon Princes and is forced to shoot at my Plaguebearers with -1 to hit for the turn. When my turn one comes up I advance everything forward (possibly holding back a squad of Plaguebearers for objectives), then Deep Strike in Abaddon + Obliterators + Warp Talons to have everything in opponent's face. My concern with swapping in bikers is that they will potentially give up first blood on turn one, but they're definitely more useful for grabbing objectives late game.
That looks like a solid list. I'd not be too fussed about Bikers, I think you've got it going good there. With all those Nurgle Daemon units, have you considered Epidemius and a Herald with Fleshy Abundance? Abaddon seems somewhat overkill when you already have wide re-roll 1's coverage. With the leftover Power, you could take some Nurglings for early disruption or a cheap HQ to fill out a Supreme Command for a CP. Or switch out the Warp Talons to try the Bikers and have 5 Power to try other things, maybe a second Herald for Virulent Blessing.
That looks like a solid list. I'd not be too fussed about Bikers, I think you've got it going good there. With all those Nurgle Daemon units, have you considered Epidemius and a Herald with Fleshy Abundance? Abaddon seems somewhat overkill when you already have wide re-roll 1's coverage. With the leftover Power, you could take some Nurglings for early disruption or a cheap HQ to fill out a Supreme Command for a CP. Or switch out the Warp Talons to try the Bikers and have 5 Power to try other things, maybe a second Herald for Virulent Blessing.
I hadn't considered Epidemius because I was only looking at the CSM codex - he looks like a solid investment, but my understanding from reading his 'Tally of Pestilence' is that while all of my units would contribute towards the Tally, the benefits would only affect my Daemon Princes and Plaguebearers - correct?
Where can I find the rules for Fleshy Abundance? I don't see it as an option in the Chaos Index or CSM book.
Is this legal and/or worth the points? Chaos lord on bike. Intoxicating elixir. Combi-flamer. Power fist. Mark of Slaanesh. 138 pts. Or is a chaos lord with jump pack, dark apostle, or exalted champion worth more in points? Especially with 20 khorne berserkers in rhinos with no other
bikes in the army. What should I do with my daemon prince if I acquire Abaddon with 2 hqs? Thanks.
That looks like a solid list. I'd not be too fussed about Bikers, I think you've got it going good there. With all those Nurgle Daemon units, have you considered Epidemius and a Herald with Fleshy Abundance? Abaddon seems somewhat overkill when you already have wide re-roll 1's coverage. With the leftover Power, you could take some Nurglings for early disruption or a cheap HQ to fill out a Supreme Command for a CP. Or switch out the Warp Talons to try the Bikers and have 5 Power to try other things, maybe a second Herald for Virulent Blessing.
I hadn't considered Epidemius because I was only looking at the CSM codex - he looks like a solid investment, but my understanding from reading his 'Tally of Pestilence' is that while all of my units would contribute towards the Tally, the benefits would only affect my Daemon Princes and Plaguebearers - correct?
Where can I find the rules for Fleshy Abundance? I don't see it as an option in the Chaos Index or CSM book.
Once the game begins, Faction Keywords are also general Keywords - as long as NURGLE and DAEMON appear in any of your keywords, you fuel and are buffed by Epidemius. Can't remember where this is FAQ'd, it's somewhere in the previous 90 pages When it comes time to go up to 150pow, Abaddon coming back with a pack of Daemon Engines (who definitely appreciate full rerolls) might well be a solid gunline
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BillyN831 wrote: Is this legal and/or worth the points? Chaos lord on bike. Intoxicating elixir. Combi-flamer. Power fist. Mark of Slaanesh. 138 pts. Or is a chaos lord with jump pack, dark apostle, or exalted champion worth more in points? Especially with 20 khorne berserkers in rhinos with no other bikes in the army. What should I do with my daemon prince if I acquire Abaddon with 2 hqs? Thanks.
Bikelord looks pretty good. He would get an extra attack and be able to Advance & charge if he rode a Steed of Slaanesh. IE is more effective on Daemon Princes, though.
Berzerkers in Rhinos need mobile aura support. Their characters want to ride with them, or have high movement. DA and EC have brilliant synergy (especially if the champions have power fists) but you'll have to clear space in the Rhinos. Or! Take their own command Rhino, with some smaller unit in there with them, perhaps Melta Havocs or Chosen.
I don't quite get what you're asking about Abaddon?
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
Nothing but praise for noise marines on this thread, they're probably top 3 troops with berzerkers and cultist (in no paticular order). Although I havent heard of anyone infiltrating 40, let us know how it goes.
Yes, Noise Marines are very good but do not confuse them with a silver bullet. Strong AV, buffs, and other secondary threats need to be part of lists for the NMs to become the true terrors that they are on the board.
Infiltrating 2 squads of 20 concerns me. That would be about 1,000 points of Noise Marines who are not going to have close combat weapons b/c of their sonics. There's a good chance half your army would get shut down in CC by the second turn. The other thing that bothers me about 20 man units is wound allocation. You have to allocate where all those shots are going before you shoot, it feels like either a) a lot of shots would be wasted or b) not enough shots will go on the right targets.
A few things to consider:
- You have a 24 inch range with those guns. Do you really need to infiltrate? If so, don't put them anywhere near the enemy. Stand them back as far as you can while still reaching the units you want to kill.
- Rerolls make a huge difference. Given the volume of fire, there is no better use for a CL or a DP early game than just standing near a squad of NMs. It's the difference between 50% and 75% of your shots hitting.
- Your massed fire will not do much against anything that's tougher than infantry. Anything you can do to add Lascannons to the backfield will be important.
- Smaller squads and screens might be the answer to the problems described above. Might.
Saying all this as a Black Legion player who runs Noise Marines. I like to drop 2x10 squads out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw, leaving them very exposed. It's good to have them close in to fire, but they need a supporting cast to stay alive.
To give them that, I bring Abaddon to give them rerolls on failed shots and a 5+ DttFE. When they disembark, they usually target things like Devastators, Tyrannid Warriors, Wraithguard, etc - any heavy infantry that could damage the armor in my backfield. Their job is to neutralize heavy weapons, they don't care about things that could shoot them up.
By the time everyone is set up, there are usually 3 big threats on the table: the NMs + Abaddon shooting everything up, the KAC + Laspreds eating vehicles, and a DP + Cultists advancing up the board. Opponents cannot devote all their firepower to a single threat, which means my Noise Marines are probably going to survive a few turns.
I generally place the KAC about 15 inches away from the line, to set it up to charge a vehicle. This puts the Noise Marines out just far enough that it's hard (but not impossible) to charge them the next turn. They are going to do a lot of overwatch shots and more often than not escape being charged. I want the NMs to take casualties & use Music of the Apocalypse to snipe enemy characters, with the BL morale buff I am can deal with losing a few models.
Provided everything goes right, the NMs come out as the MVPs of each game. When it goes wrong, there are more than a few ways to rebound. Have had all my Noise Marines wiped out in a single turn, only to have Abaddon move directly into cc and start eating troops. Have missed the Warptime on the KAC, but that meant the Predators do more damage from their side of the board. Have had the DP go down to smite spam from GK, only for the cultists to get a charge the next turn.
So, support those NMs somehow. Imbalance works against you with these guys.
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
Nothing but praise for noise marines on this thread, they're probably top 3 troops with berzerkers and cultist (in no paticular order). Although I havent heard of anyone infiltrating 40, let us know how it goes.
Yes, Noise Marines are very good but do not confuse them with a silver bullet. Strong AV, buffs, and other secondary threats need to be part of lists for the NMs to become the true terrors that they are on the board.
Infiltrating 2 squads of 20 concerns me. That would be about 1,000 points of Noise Marines who are not going to have close combat weapons b/c of their sonics. There's a good chance half your army would get shut down in CC by the second turn. The other thing that bothers me about 20 man units is wound allocation. You have to allocate where all those shots are going before you shoot, it feels like either a) a lot of shots would be wasted or b) not enough shots will go on the right targets.
A few things to consider:
- You have a 24 inch range with those guns. Do you really need to infiltrate? If so, don't put them anywhere near the enemy. Stand them back as far as you can while still reaching the units you want to kill.
- Rerolls make a huge difference. Given the volume of fire, there is no better use for a CL or a DP early game than just standing near a squad of NMs. It's the difference between 50% and 75% of your shots hitting.
- Your massed fire will not do much against anything that's tougher than infantry. Anything you can do to add Lascannons to the backfield will be important.
- Smaller squads and screens might be the answer to the problems described above. Might.
Saying all this as a Black Legion player who runs Noise Marines. I like to drop 2x10 squads out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw, leaving them very exposed. It's good to have them close in to fire, but they need a supporting cast to stay alive.
To give them that, I bring Abaddon to give them rerolls on failed shots and a 5+ DttFE. When they disembark, they usually target things like Devastators, Tyrannid Warriors, Wraithguard, etc - any heavy infantry that could damage the armor in my backfield. Their job is to neutralize heavy weapons, they don't care about things that could shoot them up.
By the time everyone is set up, there are usually 3 big threats on the table: the NMs + Abaddon shooting everything up, the KAC + Laspreds eating vehicles, and a DP + Cultists advancing up the board. Opponents cannot devote all their firepower to a single threat, which means my Noise Marines are probably going to survive a few turns.
I generally place the KAC about 15 inches away from the line, to set it up to charge a vehicle. This puts the Noise Marines out just far enough that it's hard (but not impossible) to charge them the next turn. They are going to do a lot of overwatch shots and more often than not escape being charged. I want the NMs to take casualties & use Music of the Apocalypse to snipe enemy characters, with the BL morale buff I am can deal with losing a few models.
Provided everything goes right, the NMs come out as the MVPs of each game. When it goes wrong, there are more than a few ways to rebound. Have had all my Noise Marines wiped out in a single turn, only to have Abaddon move directly into cc and start eating troops. Have missed the Warptime on the KAC, but that meant the Predators do more damage from their side of the board. Have had the DP go down to smite spam from GK, only for the cultists to get a charge the next turn.
So, support those NMs somehow. Imbalance works against you with these guys.
Oh, for sure. They'll always be accompanied by either a Sorcerer and Chaos Lord, or just a Lord at least.
I went with the Kharybdis for now, but i'll expand into Noise Marines over time.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Though I don't agree on everything you've written I'd like to see that in the first post of this thread, very good work. I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
I rated beseech the gods as a C because there are units that could benefit from multiple marks, like terminators switching to nurgle to get a casualty back or to khorne for an extra round of combat. That is situational, but if you include unmarked units in your list just the possibility of this stratagem forces good opponents to plan for multiple outcomes. That's the nice part about it, you don't even have to use it for it to be useful.
Sersi wrote:
I'd say that Veterans of the Long War was a solid A. Beseech is just a waste of CP, and I wouldn't rate Daemon forge as highly.
I could be talked up to an A on VotLW. As for deamon forge, I was thinking of the defiler, lord of skulls, and hell drake, all of which seem to be on the bubble of being useful. Toss a CP at them and they can lay down some hurt at range and become absolute beasts in CC.
lindsay40k wrote: Second first paging this, and recommendations. Beseech is trash tier, I'd rank it F as it's paying a CP to get something you could take for free during list construction, it doesn't let you stack Marks, and nobody's thought of a useful gambit/gimmick that uses it.
Flakk Missile only affects a single ML. It's actually not bad if you've got one in a CSM squad, an accuracy buff, and need to take down a crippled aircraft - that would have won it for me a few weeks ago.
Chaos Familiar opens up a ploy where your opponent locks down a Warptime caster and another psyker out of DTW range switches to learn it and throws a Kharybdis into the middle of the enemy army.
Killshot is pretty good but we're awaiting how it relates to Hellforged Predators and fixed damage weapons. 5D6 of D2-3 auto hits could be a game changer.
Vindicator can use Blasphemous Machines.
Scorn of Sorcery can block Magnus casting Smite on a 14, and a Weirdboy casting a winning Da Jump on a 27. That's really good.
I miss read Flakk missile it's even more awful than I thought, let's say you are shooting at a unit with fly here is how the math breaks down:
Flak missile: 5/6 * 2 = 1.66 wounds Krak missile: 2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 3.5 = 1.3 wounds against something with a toughness 7 and a 3+ armor save. You are paying a CP for .36 wounds, which is the worst exchange for CP out of all of the strats. Downgrading it to an F because you should never use this.
Scorn is a 50/50 chance to stop a power, so it's not reliable, and It's value is directly proportional to how good the power it's stopping is. The fact anyone can do it is the big plus, which is why I didn't rate it lower, even still a Brass collar and/or an allied psycher (yes I know it's unfluffy) seem much more reliable, and I'd have a hard time putting it in the same category as Let the galaxy burn or in midnight clad which are always useful.
I may have to change my mind on kill shot, +1 to damage is huge, it can boost a quad-las predators damage by just shy of half again and the damage boost for an autocannon is even better. Still not sold on three predators, which seems like the kind of thing you do when tailoring a list as opposed to making a TAC list. Since this only affects one of them at a time (being a possessive ' as opposed to leaving it off which would make it plural), your going to get 3ish extra wounds for a CP, which isn't bad rate of return. Probably upgrade it to a C.
Cephalobeard wrote: Well, I took the Plunge, boys. Went for the Ol' Kharybdis.
Soon my Zerkers will be riding in style. I'm incredibly excited.
Anyone doing anything fancy with theirs? Anyone have any tips for building the damn thing?
Personally going to fill it up with the ol' Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion and 2x 9 Zerkers build.
You'll be riding in style indeed... I have used my Kharybdis in half my games since I got it (in part to justify the insane investment) and it has always performed as I would hope. I wouldn't say its an auto-include in high level competitive games, but I also won't say it isn't tournament viable. I honestly love it, as it has psychological impact on the game, and is finally a delivery system which can earn back its points after dropping off cargo.
It also saves AP on redeploying those Noise Marines (and, to answer your earlier question, in early testing, a unit of 20 of them has almost always earned back their points for me. TERRIFIC unit, and a particularly efficient recipient of VotLW combined with Endless Cacophony in the same turn)
As an addition to the above... I actually don't love Berserkers in the Kharybdis. Yes, its the obvious choice and successful, BUT the Khary itself will want to be the recipient of Warptime, meaning there's a 70-ish percent chance the Berserkers wont' get to do what they do. Infiltrating them still gives them a move in the first turn, giving you more assured threat vectors, in exchange for minor risk of not going first and needing to redeploy them somewhere more central, and in cover.
Vaguely on topic with the current Noise Marine talk... does anyone have any ideas for a Noise Marine conversion that is more... mechanicum-ey?
I have a plan for an obliterator squad, and have the models in mind for it, but I haven't been able to find an appropriate "robotic noise marine" type of model.
Rydria wrote: Has anyone tried to use a spartan yet ?
I watched a batrep where it got blown off the board by a shadowsword.
This fills me with confidence in its abilities.
Shadsword can destroy anything though, so don't hold that against the Spartan. It is basically a LR on steriods, with all the pros and cons of its smaller version. Its expensive, but very tough and can fit so much stuff.
Anyone put their Kytan or Brass Scorpion to work in 8th yet? Any thoughts?
Also, I desperately want to drop Berzerkers in pods (2 Dreadclaws, 1 Kharybdis), but man, it seems like MSU is the only way to come close to "guaranteeing" 1st turn charges, but having that many units off the table means I need a ton of cultists on the board to balance the unit numbers. I'm struggling so hard with sticking to fluff and not bringing sorcs in the list. Warptime makes all the difference.
Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol
Also, I desperately want to drop Berzerkers in pods (2 Dreadclaws, 1 Kharybdis), but man, it seems like MSU is the only way to come close to "guaranteeing" 1st turn charges, but having that many units off the table means I need a ton of cultists on the board to balance the unit numbers. I'm struggling so hard with sticking to fluff and not bringing sorcs in the list. Warptime makes all the difference.
World Eaters, right? How about adding a Word Bearers Supreme Command detachment? Our two Legions have close associations, after all.
Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol
Big axe, lumbering posture, two guns - Terminators, surely? Mix and match the guns and you've got a combi-squad with power axes.
Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol
Big axe, lumbering posture, two guns - Terminators, surely? Mix and match the guns and you've got a combi-squad with power axes.
I didn't think about terminators because I thought current version terminators were better as shooty and not choppy... I didnt think about using those shoulder-mounted guns as combi weapons though! Interesting...
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Also, I desperately want to drop Berzerkers in pods (2 Dreadclaws, 1 Kharybdis), but man, it seems like MSU is the only way to come close to "guaranteeing" 1st turn charges, but having that many units off the table means I need a ton of cultists on the board to balance the unit numbers. I'm struggling so hard with sticking to fluff and not bringing sorcs in the list. Warptime makes all the difference.
Best I can tell you is to bring the Khorne Icon of Wrath. Re-roll failed charges for 10 points could help you out a lot. And it doesn't even have to be what you use. Say you roll 8 inches, but its a 6 and a 2. You can burn a command point to reroll the 2 instead of the Icon to reroll the charge.
May also want to strike a middle ground on unit size: you don't have a benefit for bringing 20 models in a unit of zerkers, so don't worry about bringing squads of 10. More chargeable targets that way anyway.
@lindsay40k: Yep, Word Bearers FTW. As much as I love World Eaters because they're totally all about Khorne, I think I like Word Bearers better overall. Too bad their legion rules are sucky (for my purposes). The sorcerer I use right now is painted in WB colors, as is my Dark Apostle.
@Warpyt0013: For sure every unit will have an Icon of Wrath. Such a great piece of gear. Even still, 9" charges are easily failed twice. That's why I was thinking MSU is the best way of doing it.
Sersi wrote: I'm not following what your getting at here. Yes, the Fire Frenzy stratagem doesn't apply to the units the FW granted the Helbrute keyword too by FAQ. But your wrong on the Sonic Dreadnought which by FAQ is a Helbrute with two additional weapons options. It uses the same Datasheet so it obviously has on the same keywords as the Helbrute excluding the faction Keywords EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and SLAANESH. So, it can use the Fire Frenzy stratagem just fine.
It's a point of contention. Currently the rules aren't explicit as to what the name of the unit is supposed to be. They reference it, define it as, an Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought. Using the Helbrute datasheet doesn't necessarily make it a Helbrute but since we no clear instruction to change the name to Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, I would still allow the interpretation. From an intent standpoint, I think the stratagem was made with a clear idea of what weapons would be firing (ones from the codex the stratagem is pulled from) and the FW/Sonic versions wouldn't apply. If Forgeworld is going to be releasing their own books for these models, they might want to come out with some stratagems too.
Blastmasters and Dooms Sirens are weapons option in Codex: Chaos Space marines. The FWFAQ tells us to use the Helbrute data sheet, only adding weapons options and faction keywords. Factions which can be freely taken on a Helbrute anyway. It would be more accurate to call a "Sonic Dreadnought" is in fact a "Sonic Helbrute". Honestly, this is the first time I've seen this argument. Any, guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: Vaguely on topic with the current Noise Marine talk... does anyone have any ideas for a Noise Marine conversion that is more... mechanicum-ey?
I have a plan for an obliterator squad, and have the models in mind for it, but I haven't been able to find an appropriate "robotic noise marine" type of model.
I have Sonic Terminators that I usually proxy as my Obliterators. But I've proxy-ed my Subjugator and Questor titans from Warmaster. There easy to find on eBay at a reasonable price even now.
You pass the charge roughly 27.778% of the time(10 passes/36 possible results). Icon of wrath allows you to re-roll the remaining 72.22% bringing the failed percentage(72.22% of 72.22) to 52.157%. That is the Icon of wrath alone. 4 of those 26 failed results contain a 6, which you can re-roll the second die using a CP with a 66.67% pass rate. 4/36=11.11% two thirds of that is 7.408%. 6 of the 26 failed results contain a 5 which can be re-rolled for a CP with a 50% pass rate, 6/36=16.667% half of that is 8.333%. the results containing 4s can be re-rolled for a 33.333% pass rate which is higher than the original charge chance, but that is a little further than I would be willing to go if I had two units charging.
In conclusion: the original charge has a 43.519% chance of success for a charge using a single command point., and a 47.843% chance if you use the Icon. Unfortunately, no dice can be re-rolled more than once, so you cannot combine the two results for a higher than 50% chance of success. This means that in order to "guarantee" a 9" charge, without warptime, or the AL stratagem, you need 3 units charging. 10 zerkers with Chainswords, 3 ea plasma pistols, and an Icon comes to 191 points, times 3, with a cheap Lord(Axe, jump pack and plasma pistol for 101) comes to 674 points. Yup. that's a lot of points with those drop pods on top. MSU(5 man squads) comes to 402, but now you are spending far more points on your "missile"(drop pods) than on your "warhead"(zerkers).
Didn't want to quote cos of the lot of text, but doesn't that just mean it's a lot more cost effective to just buy one squad of berserkers, and then spend the saved points on a sorcerer for warptime? Though I dunno what the chances of failing warptime would be
Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol
Big axe, lumbering posture, two guns - Terminators, surely? Mix and match the guns and you've got a combi-squad with power axes.
This is what I was gonna say! I think they would make great count as terminators. Personally, I'd make them dedicated to khorne to justify those axes (and cause I dedicated 95% of everything I make to khorne)!
You pass the charge roughly 27.778% of the time(10 passes/36 possible results). Icon of wrath allows you to re-roll the remaining 72.22% bringing the failed percentage(72.22% of 72.22) to 52.157%. That is the Icon of wrath alone. 4 of those 26 failed results contain a 6, which you can re-roll the second die using a CP with a 66.67% pass rate. 4/36=11.11% two thirds of that is 7.408%. 6 of the 26 failed results contain a 5 which can be re-rolled for a CP with a 50% pass rate, 6/36=16.667% half of that is 8.333%. the results containing 4s can be re-rolled for a 33.333% pass rate which is higher than the original charge chance, but that is a little further than I would be willing to go if I had two units charging.
In conclusion: the original charge has a 43.519% chance of success for a charge using a single command point., and a 47.843% chance if you use the Icon. Unfortunately, no dice can be re-rolled more than once, so you cannot combine the two results for a higher than 50% chance of success. This means that in order to "guarantee" a 9" charge, without warptime, or the AL stratagem, you need 3 units charging. 10 zerkers with Chainswords, 3 ea plasma pistols, and an Icon comes to 191 points, times 3, with a cheap Lord(Axe, jump pack and plasma pistol for 101) comes to 674 points. Yup. that's a lot of points with those drop pods on top. MSU(5 man squads) comes to 402, but now you are spending far more points on your "missile"(drop pods) than on your "warhead"(zerkers).
Thanks for the statistical analysis, it was interesting to see all that play out.
As for the final point regarding the missile costing more than the warhead, MSU would allow more than 1 (2 max per Dreadclaw, 4 max per Kharybdis) unit per transport. I have yet to try this method using any transport, but my rationale was to maximize the number of units making charges to go for that aforementioned "guarantee" while minimizing the amount of points spent on the pods themselves. Were I to go for 1 unit per transport, I'd definitely max it out though. I guess the pods should be factored in for charges too, for the sheer number of units attempting charges to at least tie stuff up, if not shut down overwatch for successful berzerker charges. That also factors into the problem, though, in that I need to have so many units on the table to balance the large number of units deep striking.
As for it being easy to fail, looking at the ~43.5% and ~47.8% chances of success, maybe easy isn't the most accurate word. However, it isn't likely that each unit will successfully charge, either. All 3 could fail - or succeed, in fairness - but having the outcome of the battle hinge on those odds may not be the best idea. Doesn't mean I won't try it repeatedly, however. Pulling it off will just be that much sweeter and more satisfying.
Regardless, both pods are pretty damn expensive. This makes me wonder whether it's worth even trying to bring 3 pods for turn 1 charges compared to the additional units I could bring were I to just chuck the berzerkers in rhinos. 128*2 = 256 points saved by swapping the Dreadclaws out, and 228 for the Kharybdis. That's 484 points I could be spending on things like terminators to nuke stuff or maulerfiends/blood slaughterers/heldrakes/daemon prince to run up the board with my berzerkers so they aren't the only threat. I don't have my iPad with me to check my FW chaos index, but based on power level I'd even be able to run a Kytan for the cost of the Kharybdis and 1 Dreadclaw, and almost be able to run the 3 rhinos for the cost of the second dreadclaw. I guess, having all the minis, I can try out every permutation of the list eventually. This tangent notwithstanding, the point was trying to make max pods work somehow.
What units complement noise marines? Abaddon for the rerolls? Cultists so you can have more noise marines? Rhinos? Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.
What are peoples thoughts on a non thousand sons mono tzeench list. Can it be effective? I am thinking of mixing in some tzeench demons (maknly for flamers and exalted flamers) . units on the csm side which i am definately wanting to include are
Lord or sorceror (ideally either in terminator armour or on disc)
A squad of terminators
Some possessed
A couple of 9 man squads of marines
A predator + some obliterators.
Im toying around with running a patrol detachment + vanguard
I've played a couple games now with the new codex.
I've had a harder time getting use out of Cultists than I thought I would. They do do fantastic damage when buffed, but morale is a huge issue if you're trying to take advantage of Tide of Traitors. The only way to fix this is Abaddon, who you don't really want to have on the board turn 1. An Iron Warriors warlord would also work, but you probably really want them to be Alpha Legion. This ends up being a huge gamble, where you basically auto-win if you go first and get to move and charge with your Cultists, but if you go second and your opponent has a lot of anti-infantry shooting you're likely to lose a ton of guys once you figure in morale. I've gone back to Horrors for competitive lists, since they're just so much more durable. With the Death Guard codex it may make sense to bring some Pox Walkers too and hide them behind Horrors -- you're essentially invincible as you walk up the field at this point because every 3 point Horror that gets killed spawns a new 6 point Poxwalker, with stratagems.
I've struggled to use Noise and Plague Marines. They're just so expensive. I always feel like I'm just giving my opponent good stuff to shoot at unless I hide them away in transports, but with the way I tend to build lists the transports stick out as a target for anti-tank weapons (I otherwise tend towards mass infantry). I know people here have suggested using a Kharybdis, and that probably makes sense but I haven't gotten to try it yet.
Obliterators are even better than they seem on paper. I knew they were hard to screen, with their 24" guns, but terrain often makes them basically impossible to hide from. They can deep strike in on top of a building in order to stay 9" away from units on the ground. I have found that they're very vulnerable to counter-assault; the worst example was a player who had Eversors in reserve and used them to attack Obliterators after they came in. It's less that they get killed and more that they get tied up. So it often makes sense to hold off on the Obliterators for a turn or two until you're in a better position, as long as the rest of your army is durable enough (here's where the Horrors come in). But their damage output is ridiculous. I am not sure that you can have too many of them; 3 units is easily justifiable in just about any list. I'm beginning to think that Iron Warriors is best for them, since you'll sometimes roll poorly for damage and have to take potshots at a dug-in unit in cover instead of the tank you were wanting to kill.
The codex's big weakness seems to be hordes, which is probably no surprise since that's what everyone's having a hard time with now. I've had a little success with summoning Bloodletters for this. I only summon once the Horrors are also in position to charge and tie things up, so missing the charge isn't disastrous, and the Obliterators are probably already on the table or are coming in the same turn. This is also what makes Noise Marines so appealing, but like I said their 24" range and lack of innate deep strike is a problem.
First, CSM squads of 9, while fluffy, are really impractical. You only need one more model to take your second heavy/special weapon, and you really are not running MSU at 9 models per unit. Probably better to take that last model, and get the extra weapon.
Second, marks are free. The only real downside is that you are no longer undivided, and cannot take an Icon of Vengeance for leadership 9 on those 10 man squads. Not without spending command points to give them a mark after the game starts. Plus, while the Icon of Wrath sounds cool, it only triggers on a 6. If it was something crazy like D3 mortal wounds instead of just 1, then sure. But a 16.667% chance of dealing a mortal wound is not worth it in my mind. I'll take my ten points and buy a few more cultists.
Next, Sorcerers are Tzeentch's thing. And his stratagem only applies to psykers with his mark(wait, I can Prescience, Death Hex, AND Smite all at once?!?!). And between his relic adding one to your psychic tests, and his power improving/giving invulnerable saves, you really should run Sorcerers over Lords in a list like this. Especially in Open or Narrative play where you can multicast from different sources.
Also, regarding that psychic power of Tzeentch's, anyone who already has an Invul save should be in your repertoire. Invulnerable saves are both better and worse in this edition, because some of our more common infantry units with a 5++ also have a 2+ armor(Termies, and Oblits). This means that we only use it against Melta, and silly things like Knights, or other Apoc-point cost range models. Plasma? Their armor is degraded to 5+. But Tzeentch Psykers have the potential to improve those Invuls to a 4++, and that actually matters against things like Hellblasters, or Lascannons. Possessed and Warp Talons benefit more from the 5++ that they have, because it works against such things, but that Predator, or those ten marines we were talking about, sure could use a 5++ to cover themselves.
Ultimately, a list like this will not be too different from most undivided lists out there right now. you can't run the other cult troops, because you already said you want a Tzeenctch list, and fluff-wise all Rubric marines are TSons, but I could see a few of them being picked up after you killed their original Sorcerer, and are using them as automatons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Dionysodorus, I have not had much trouble getting cultists to work for me.. I usually run them as 10 man teams to fill out my list, and throw them in the back on an objective or towards a unit that can shoot pretty well, but that I can tie up in CQC for forever. If they die, then I am out 40 points. If they live they accomplish something far more important than any 40 point unit should be capable of doing. Of course, this doesn't really work for Tide of Traitors, where 10 cultists isn't worth the command point, but It allows them to do a job and do it well. And if they are Alpha Legion, and are being shot at with that -1 to hit, then they probably aren't getting shot at because there are much more tasty targets and your opponent suddenly needs to make his shots mean something.
Just until your next Movement phase, so you'd be doing something like taking a big core of Poxwalkers surrounded by other cheap infantry, and then for 2 CP each round your opponent can't shoot your Poxwalkers and any time one of your other infantry models dies within 7" of a Poxwalker, you get a new Poxwalker. Which probably means that if your other models are Cultists or Horrors it doesn't even make sense to shoot at them. It may take you two or three turns to get there but your slow CC horde is definitely making it to the enemy.
File this under poorly conceived tactica and overconfidence on legion traits.
Watched a game last night with an Alpha Legion list featuring Berzerkers, Close-combat Helbrutes, a Maulerfiend, Bikers, Cultists and a Kharybdis Assault Claw. The only special weapons I could see were meltas on the bikers.
He put 20 cultists in the KAC and ran the Berzerkers up the board. The player spent all that money on the KAC model and was unaware it could move or assault after arriving.
The cultists died to overwatch, morale checks, and taking a charge from his Space Marine opponent. The Berzerkers never made it into combat, the Helbrutes died to Lascannon shots, I'm pretty sure the only things that did any wounds on the Space Marine player were bolter shots from the bikes.
It just felt icky to watch. More people need to read Dakka.
I've given my GBS a whirl. No where near as durable as previous editions (I wrote the 4Chan entry on it). It moves 12" and charges 3D6", you absolutely have to use its speed unless you're in a fortunate position to not be facing armies with much in the way of long range at fire. A DP with wings for re-rolls or Demonforge stratagem is a fair backup. On the counterside it will absolutely maim anything it shoots or chargers.
To give you an example, I've suffered a unit of 5 deffkoptas (circa 400pts) take half its wounds. In another instance, I've also had a pair of land speeders take off a good 5 wounds in a single turn at 48" range, far outside the reach of the scorpion.
Personally, it should have the same rules for enemies/allies in regards to psychic powers (as in, if enemies can cast curses that don't cause mortal wounds on it, allies should be able to cast powers that bless the scorpion). It should also have the same number of wounds as a Knight, 20 wounds is a bit of BS for its whopping 625pts tbh as it's not THAT durable even with a 3+/5++, heal 1 wound per turn and T8. I'd definitely say slightly overpriced for what it does, i'd personally say 500 would be more appropriate when I think of it relative to other LoW choices such as Magnus, Knights and Roboute.
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: What are peoples thoughts on a non thousand sons mono tzeench list. Can it be effective? I am thinking of mixing in some tzeench demons (maknly for flamers and exalted flamers) . units on the csm side which i am definately wanting to include are
Lord or sorceror (ideally either in terminator armour or on disc)
A squad of terminators
Some possessed
A couple of 9 man squads of marines
A predator + some obliterators.
Im toying around with running a patrol detachment + vanguard
Daemon synergy is the primary reason to run Renegade Tzeentch instead of Thousand Sons IMO. Run a bunch of daemon keyword CSM and take a supreme command of The Changeling+Heralds.
I've given my GBS a whirl. No where near as durable as previous editions (I wrote the 4Chan entry on it). It moves 12" and charges 3D6", you absolutely have to use its speed unless you're in a fortunate position to not be facing armies with much in the way of long range at fire. A DP with wings for re-rolls or Demonforge stratagem is a fair backup. On the counterside it will absolutely maim anything it shoots or chargers.
To give you an example, I've suffered a unit of 5 deffkoptas (circa 400pts) take half its wounds. In another instance, I've also had a pair of land speeders take off a good 5 wounds in a single turn at 48" range, far outside the reach of the scorpion.
Personally, it should have the same rules for enemies/allies in regards to psychic powers (as in, if enemies can cast curses that don't cause mortal wounds on it, allies should be able to cast powers that bless the scorpion). It should also have the same number of wounds as a Knight, 20 wounds is a bit of BS for its whopping 625pts tbh as it's not THAT durable even with a 3+/5++, heal 1 wound per turn and T8. I'd definitely say slightly overpriced for what it does, i'd personally say 500 would be more appropriate when I think of it relative to other LoW choices such as Magnus, Knights and Roboute.
Cool, thanks for the reply. Sounds about right, based on the stats. Daemonforge FTW, seriously. I guess you'd have to burn 2 CP to use it during shooting and assault, though? Oh well.
As for dropping the points/increasing wounds, you're totally right. I REALLY hope Forge World takes the same approach to errata that GW has, but I have a bad feeling they're just not gonna touch the books/update them at all at any point. Seems like their rules writers are either too busy or uninterested (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt though) to do so.
Put Berzerkers to work today, not that it's a surprise to anyone but they will absolutely SLAUGHTER stuff on the charge. I love it! They die quite easily, but a unit of 10 packing axes/swords/fist on champ is just glorious murder.
Cephalobeard wrote: How are people feeling about Noise Marines, in general? I'm an enormous fan on paper, just trying to gauge how much I want to plunge in to buying loads of them.
Current idea is two squads of 20-- infiltrating with Alpha Legion. 60 Shots each, can double tap with cacophony, etc.
Any success, nerds?
I played 3 units of 10 in my last game 2500pts, vs genestealer cults, the 1 unit he alpha striked and completely killed took out a full unit of 20 genestealers who had failed to charge another of my noise marine units, there anti light infantry firepower is very potent.
I've had games vs squishy alpha strike armies like scions and genestealer cults where I've devastated there army on there first turn (me going second) this is a small sample size however since I only generally get to play once maybe twice a week. I may try out a big unit of 20 since I do own 50 noise marines.
Competitively, you really need rhinos. If your opponent goes first, it's a sad day for units that aren't in a rhino.
Two squads of 20 noise marines is pretty overkill IMO. So many shots! They're great but I feel like your opponent will quickly run out of optimal targets for them to shoot.
Just in general, buffing one ten man squad with prescience and VOTLW (and double firing) I've found to be entirely sufficient. Toss in a lord to re-roll those 1's to hit if you want! But YMMV.
I turn myself towards your wisdom, traitor brothers. I have suffered several defeats against the Primaris and I seriously need your help to get the hang of how to crush them. One of my friend who plays Primaris has something alongs those lines :
Some nice fellow gave away their Chaos Space Marines collection last night. I ended up with 10 noise marines and someone had 40 plus khorne berserkers now. I might want to trade with him for 10 so I can have from 20 to 30 in my army. Is running 20 khorne
berserkers and 10 noise marines just as good as running 30 khorne berserkers in an army? Thanks.
BillyN831 wrote: Some nice fellow gave away their Chaos Space Marines collection last night. I ended up with 10 noise marines and someone had 40 plus khorne berserkers now. I might want to trade with him for 10 so I can have from 20 to 30 in my army. Is running 20 khorne
berserkers and 10 noise marines just as good as running 30 khorne berserkers in an army? Thanks.
It's better. You need a balance of shooting and close combat. Noise Marines are pretty potent shooters, and 2 squads of Berzerkers are a very real threat.
-Chaos lord in terminator armor with chainfist.
-Lord of Contagion / Chaos Lord of Nurgle in terminator armour.
-Daemon Prince with wings and Hellforged sword x2
-Dark Apostle x2 (can be proxy as exalted champion)
-Great Unclean One.
-Herald of Nurgle x2.
-Sorcerer in Terminator armour.
-Malignant Plaguecaster / Sorcer of Nurgle.
-Kharn
+Troops.++
-Chaos Space Marines x70 (10 with CCW, 14 with plasma/melta, rest with bolters).
-Nurglings x3.
-Plaguebearers x40 (2 Icons, 2 instruments, 2 champ).
-Poxwalkers / Chaos Cultists x20
Elite.
-Chaos Terminators x15.
-Plague Marines x14 (2x Dark Imperium set).
-Noxious Blightbringer.
-Contemptor Dreadnoughts x3 (one with CCW and Assault cannon, One with two assault cannons, one with two twin lasc)
Fast Attack.
-Chaos Bikers x6
-Plague Drones x3
Heavy support.
-Land Raider x3
-Predator.
-Vindicator x2.
-Havocs x10 (4 ML, 4 Heavy Bolters).
-Soul Grinder.
-Leviathan Dreadnought
Khornate25 wrote: I turn myself towards your wisdom, traitor brothers. I have suffered several defeats against the Primaris and I seriously need your help to get the hang of how to crush them. One of my friend who plays Primaris has something alongs those lines :
I usually have difficulty dealing with his hellblasters and interceptors (they tend to obliterate my biggest forces).
How can I deal with this ?
Dropping a max squad of Warp Talons and a Sorcerer will let you Warptime into plenty of Hellblasters and Aggressors without facing OW. He's got no DTW so it's a safe play, and even if he gets a Librarian there's creative ways around it. You'll inflict modest casualties, but most importantly shut down their shooting (UNLESS THEY ARE ULTRAMARINES ), giving your other units the chance to get in there. For the second psychic power, the God-specific ones and Prescience are strong candidates.
Also a possibility is the Kharybdis full of Noise Marines. Sounds like they'll have a target-rich environment.
You can outrange his firepower with Havocs or Predators, and Cultists will screen the Inceptors. If you recycle a big Cultist squad and send it to shoot Hellblasters, it'll kill more than its own points value.
Dropping in a squad of 10 combi plas terminators with mark of slaanesh is a great way to ruin a primaris player's day. Toss a lord nearby for re-rolls of 1. Overcharge with impunity. Fire twice. Delete many many marines.
The leviathan with double butcher cannons is also great against them because it has a damage profile of 2. So every failed save is a dead primaris. And that Dreadnought is really tough to kill.
Re: the zerker debate - I find 10 noise marines to be enough because you need to put them in a rhino in case you go second. Having a second squad in another rhino is pretty good but the noise marines really want to fire twice to maximize their efficiency. So personally, I'd probably go with more zerkers and stick with 10 noise marines. But given how many zerkers you have, I would make that trade just to have the flexibility. I haven't fielded more than 2 10 man squads of zerkers in a long time (I did do 60 early on in the edition - I just found it to be not as efficient because usually my zerkers were trading their lives for 4 point cultists or 3 point Conscripts. Not worth). Zerkers need a rhino also
luke1705 wrote: Dropping in a squad of 10 combi plas terminators with mark of slaanesh is a great way to ruin a primaris player's day. Toss a lord nearby for re-rolls of 1. Overcharge with impunity. Fire twice. Delete many many marines.
The leviathan with double butcher cannons is also great against them because it has a damage profile of 2. So every failed save is a dead primaris. And that Dreadnought is really tough to kill.
Spot on, I'd throw in a Sorcerer for Prescience and Ecstatic Agonies on the Terminators. EA almost halves the effectiveness of overcharged Plasma vs 2W by reducing most shots' damage to one. You may want to hold this unit in reserve whilst you take out speed bumps to their success, though - in a plasma fight you want to get the first shot, and with a screening unit the Hellblasters' 15" double tap range has Termies at a disadvantage.
Havocs or Chosen with Plasma and a Lord make for a competent home guard. They can hide in a Rhino and from that have a 21" double tap threat radius - Primaris will need full commitment to overwhelm a line with that.
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-plasma, No Chaos Mark, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators: Mark of Slaanesh
Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-plasma, No Chaos Mark, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators: Mark of Slaanesh
Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Hmm, your Havocs are not going to do much. Five guys, all with plasma, they're going to get neutered by Bolt Rifles or those Inceptor carbines, especially since there's no other good targets for small arms fire. They want Rhinos for protection. Alternatively, a Battalion with Cultists - your Terminators will eat three CP on arrival.
Terminator Murder Sword guy isn't going to catch his prey, he's likely not even going to get to swing at any troopers - that's an Artefact that wants a mobile carrier unless it's just there because it's a freebie (though in that case, I'd prefer a Sorcerer with +1 on Smite).
Sure, sometimes a big squad is going to struggle to find enough targets for an Endless Cacophony. If the other squad is full of Fists and is Khornate, it's not a bad target for Warptime. And splitting ten into two fives makes it easier to fill out a Vanguard.
Sure, sometimes a big squad is going to struggle to find enough targets for an Endless Cacophony. If the other squad is full of Fists and is Khornate, it's not a bad target for Warptime. And splitting ten into two fives makes it easier to fill out a Vanguard.
1 squads gonna be 4 combi plasmas heavy flamer 1 power fist 2 chain fists 2 axes with the other squad being 4 combi meltas reaper auto cannon 3 axes 1 maul 1 power sword.
Considering dropping them alongside some oblits sorceror and either Abbadon or dual claws lord. Alot of points but has the potential to work well.
After being recommended to add a unit of Terminators (because of the model I wanted to field haha) and seeing as today's conversation seems to be termie-related, I thought I'd ask about builds.
I was thinking of adding a unit of 5 into the army, but someone said that a unit of 5 was too small? Considering how hideously expensive they are, I thought 5 was the usual unit size to throw in.
Combi-Plasma + Power Axe was the combination I was considering.
Edit: I had already planned to have one unit of Obliterators to teleport in and shoot things, in case that makes a difference. As the oblits would already be doing a bunch of shooting, perhaps the termies wouldn't need the plasma?
Sure, sometimes a big squad is going to struggle to find enough targets for an Endless Cacophony. If the other squad is full of Fists and is Khornate, it's not a bad target for Warptime. And splitting ten into two fives makes it easier to fill out a Vanguard.
1 squads gonna be 4 combi plasmas heavy flamer 1 power fist 2 chain fists 2 axes with the other squad being 4 combi meltas reaper auto cannon 3 axes 1 maul 1 power sword.
Considering dropping them alongside some oblits sorceror and either Abbadon or dual claws lord. Alot of points but has the potential to work well.
Cool, let us know how it goes! I'm not sold on RAC - the fact that it's priced at the same level as combi-weapons but has much longer range suggests this close ranged firefight unit will prefer another combi instead. If they ever up it to 2D, it could be worth it again. But for now, it's a poundshop assault Cannon.
Heavy Flamers aren't bad, if you can pull off Warptime. My own termie squad is both of yours, combined into one big one, with two heavy Flamers and Icon of Wrath - not an optimal build, but the one that I liked, and it holds up well against my casual regular opponents. Wouldn't use it against all comers, though.
Khornate25 wrote:So I should take a battalion and uses cultists ?
I'd give it a go. Especially if you're playing games with objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: After being recommended to add a unit of Terminators (because of the model I wanted to field haha) and seeing as today's conversation seems to be termie-related, I thought I'd ask about builds.
I was thinking of adding a unit of 5 into the army, but someone said that a unit of 5 was too small? Considering how hideously expensive they are, I thought 5 was the usual unit size to throw in.
Combi-Plasma + Power Axe was the combination I was considering.
Sounds good, if you've not got plenty of Noise Marines who want EC then I'd add Mark of Slaanesh for plenty of dakka
Niiru wrote: After being recommended to add a unit of Terminators (because of the model I wanted to field haha) and seeing as today's conversation seems to be termie-related, I thought I'd ask about builds.
I was thinking of adding a unit of 5 into the army, but someone said that a unit of 5 was too small? Considering how hideously expensive they are, I thought 5 was the usual unit size to throw in.
Combi-Plasma + Power Axe was the combination I was considering.
Sounds good, if you've not got plenty of Noise Marines who want EC then I'd add Mark of Slaanesh for plenty of dakka
Wouldn't the Oblits be a better target for EC? Or would the terminator squad essentially replace the oblit squad in my list? I'm going to be tight for points, so if the termies can replace the oblits it miight be better... but then if the oblits are just better then maybe not.
edit: and I was considering adding two squads of 5 noise marines to my list (or one squad of 10) and using alpha infiltrate to put them in position turn 1. But I don't have a model in mind for them aha.
Niiru wrote: After being recommended to add a unit of Terminators (because of the model I wanted to field haha) and seeing as today's conversation seems to be termie-related, I thought I'd ask about builds.
I was thinking of adding a unit of 5 into the army, but someone said that a unit of 5 was too small? Considering how hideously expensive they are, I thought 5 was the usual unit size to throw in.
Combi-Plasma + Power Axe was the combination I was considering.
Edit: I had already planned to have one unit of Obliterators to teleport in and shoot things, in case that makes a difference. As the oblits would already be doing a bunch of shooting, perhaps the termies wouldn't need the plasma?
5 can definitely work. It's like a medium size suicide squad. They even work with oblits. The only thing you're going to want to do is make sure you deep strike your two units on successive turns so that they can both double shoot. And somehow getting re-rolls of 1's (DP, lord, etc) and prescience is of course very nice. Personally, I'd probably go all out on that strat and try for 10 instead of 5, but maybe that's overkill for most targets anyhow. Proxy it up and see which you like better
Wouldn't the Oblits be a better target for EC? Or would the terminator squad essentially replace the oblit squad in my list? I'm going to be tight for points, so if the termies can replace the oblits it miight be better... but then if the oblits are just better then maybe not.
edit: and I was considering adding two squads of 5 noise marines to my list (or one squad of 10) and using alpha infiltrate to put them in position turn 1. But I don't have a model in mind for them aha.
Yes oblits are better, as long as they're not getting tarpitted in CC. Noise marines have usefulness in death so it's not as bad (plus they tend to do so much work on the first turn that you're pretty much good to go).
Check out the Forge World emperor's children Kakophani. They are beautiful. I'm getting my squad of 10 painted up right now.
Be wary of infiltrate. I hate rhinos with the undying passion of 1000 suns but they are pretty necessary right now to guard against going second
Niiru wrote: After being recommended to add a unit of Terminators (because of the model I wanted to field haha) and seeing as today's conversation seems to be termie-related, I thought I'd ask about builds.
I was thinking of adding a unit of 5 into the army, but someone said that a unit of 5 was too small? Considering how hideously expensive they are, I thought 5 was the usual unit size to throw in.
Combi-Plasma + Power Axe was the combination I was considering.
Edit: I had already planned to have one unit of Obliterators to teleport in and shoot things, in case that makes a difference. As the oblits would already be doing a bunch of shooting, perhaps the termies wouldn't need the plasma?
5 can definitely work. It's like a medium size suicide squad. They even work with oblits. The only thing you're going to want to do is make sure you deep strike your two units on successive turns so that they can both double shoot. And somehow getting re-rolls of 1's (DP, lord, etc) and prescience is of course very nice. Personally, I'd probably go all out on that strat and try for 10 instead of 5, but maybe that's overkill for most targets anyhow. Proxy it up and see which you like better
Wouldn't the Oblits be a better target for EC? Or would the terminator squad essentially replace the oblit squad in my list? I'm going to be tight for points, so if the termies can replace the oblits it miight be better... but then if the oblits are just better then maybe not.
edit: and I was considering adding two squads of 5 noise marines to my list (or one squad of 10) and using alpha infiltrate to put them in position turn 1. But I don't have a model in mind for them aha.
Yes oblits are better, as long as they're not getting tarpitted in CC. Noise marines have usefulness in death so it's not as bad (plus they tend to do so much work on the first turn that you're pretty much good to go).
Check out the Forge World emperor's children Kakophani. They are beautiful. I'm getting my squad of 10 painted up right now.
Be wary of infiltrate. I hate rhinos with the undying passion of 1000 suns but they are pretty necessary right now to guard against going second
My army list is very Mech heavy... maulerfiend, decimator, contemptors, deredeo. A few cultists for screen. Thats why I'm avoiding transports, as they don't fit the theme much and they use up valuable points.
One unit of oblits and one unit of termis would be expensive enough that I don't think I could also fit in a uni of noise marines. I think it's going to be 2 out of the 3. Which would be the best 2?
@nirru yes oblits are better great thing with oblits is you dont have to drop them close to the enemy to make them good. Also their guns are assault so if against a assault army like khorne you can always keep your distance moving backwards and firing.
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-flamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Power sword
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Combi-bolter, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: 20x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators: No Chaos Mark
Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Champion of Slaanesh wrote: @nirru yes oblits are better great thing with oblits is you dont have to drop them close to the enemy to make them good. Also their guns are assault so if against a assault army like khorne you can always keep your distance moving backwards and firing.
Well, Oblits only move 4", but I guess they can advance and shoot still with a -1 to hit. Still on average more mobile than a terminator squad with their rapid fire combi plasmas. So seems a unit of oblits are a good unit to have.
So with the other units I listed, which would be better to have:
5x Terminators + 5x combi plasma + 5x power axes
or
10x Noise Marines + 8x Sonic blaster + 2x blastmaster
Edit: Or, another thought... I had planned on adding a chaos lord or sorcerer to my list with a jump pack to have it deepstrike with troops I send in, but I could instead have a lord in terminator armour, with combi-plasma and power axe. Same with a sorcerer. Means I could use those models for it. Maybe. Pricey though.
If I was doing 2/3 of noise marines, oblits and terminators, I would prioritize them in that order. Definitely need noise marines because the oblits and terminators are good against the same type of targets
luke1705 wrote: If I was doing 2/3 of noise marines, oblits and terminators, I would prioritize them in that order. Definitely need noise marines because the oblits and terminators are good against the same type of targets
Yeh, I may end up doing it that way... the models I planned to use for Oblits would be magnetized anyway so I could actually run them as either oblits or termies depending on the game.
What is the current thinking on HQ choices? Lord vs Sorcerer, Jumppack vs Termi armour? Or is one Prince better than having a Lord+Sorc? (One prince seems to be a similar cost to a lord+sorc combo)
Prince-Blender of all things if he gets to swing. Mine tends to have an escort or is clearing out drop squads that hit the bubble wrap.
Lords-I keep mine cheap use them for back line reroll machines. They can be vicious in cc though.
Sorcs-I use 1-2 since I always find a use. I use JP for deep strikes and just normal ones in the back line.
Apostles-Go with zerkers or possessed
EC-See above
Apostles?
It's hard to decide what models to work on lol, have to say theres a fair few nice choices that can be made with chaos which is good. A prince would make for a better centrepiece HQ I think, but then it's also super pricey to play one. However I think in my list of lots of high toughness walkers, I'm not sure if that would mean the Prince would die faster, or survive longer.
Niiru wrote: What is the current thinking on HQ choices? Lord vs Sorcerer, Jumppack vs Termi armour? Or is one Prince better than having a Lord+Sorc? (One prince seems to be a similar cost to a lord+sorc combo)
I think a mobile Sorcerer is pretty strong, you want to have Warptime but being able to also cast a god's protection spell or Death Hex is pretty important. I usually go with a Slaanesh Steed Sorcerer, as he gets a larger reach from his base, loses nothing from being disqualified for my Legion Trait, and he can benefit from Slaaneshi Herald buffs (usually goes off with one and a pack of Fiends or Seekers).
If you've got Berzerkers against IMPERIUM then a Dark Apostle will give them like a 103% hit rate. Again, must-have in the 150power games I'm playing, especially with Cursed Crozius. I've started taking an Exalted Champion with him, partly because I've not modelled my zerks with chainaxes (World Eaters auxiliaries are getting those), partly to avoid the six power fist attacks getting blocked, partly to fill out an extra detachment.
I usually take a Nurgle DP to rendezvous with the plasma deep strikers but I'm not sure that he's the best choice. I'm kind of tempted to switch him out for a Slaaneshi one who could benefit from Herald tricks and that magic potion, but I like having Grandfather's Blessings and Fleshy Abundance up my sleeve - especially when he exposes himself whilst finishing off a Death Hex target.
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-flamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Power sword
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Combi-bolter, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: 20x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators: No Chaos Mark
Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
I like this list a lot better than your last list, but am wondering where the Primaris-killers are. It feels like your solution for them is Plasma, Plasma, Plasma. Which might work, only I think they can bring more than you are bringing.
When I read your list of available units, I thought 2 Preds with autocannons and heavy bolters might be nice options. Not positive how they compare to a HLD tho.
What is the reason for 10x Terminators instead of 2x5 Terminators? Feels like you would want to split them to keep wounds from spilling over, and maybe to position them in different places.
Niiru wrote: What is the current thinking on HQ choices? Lord vs Sorcerer, Jumppack vs Termi armour? Or is one Prince better than having a Lord+Sorc? (One prince seems to be a similar cost to a lord+sorc combo)
I think a mobile Sorcerer is pretty strong, you want to have Warptime but being able to also cast a god's protection spell or Death Hex is pretty important. I usually go with a Slaanesh Steed Sorcerer, as he gets a larger reach from his base, loses nothing from being disqualified for my Legion Trait, and he can benefit from Slaaneshi Herald buffs (usually goes off with one and a pack of Fiends or Seekers).
If you've got Berzerkers against IMPERIUM then a Dark Apostle will give them like a 103% hit rate. Again, must-have in the 150power games I'm playing, especially with Cursed Crozius. I've started taking an Exalted Champion with him, partly because I've not modelled my zerks with chainaxes (World Eaters auxiliaries are getting those), partly to avoid the six power fist attacks getting blocked, partly to fill out an extra detachment.
I usually take a Nurgle DP to rendezvous with the plasma deep strikers but I'm not sure that he's the best choice. I'm kind of tempted to switch him out for a Slaaneshi one who could benefit from Herald tricks and that magic potion, but I like having Grandfather's Blessings and Fleshy Abundance up my sleeve - especially when he exposes himself whilst finishing off a Death Hex target.
Is a double DP (QP?) list any good?
I actually keep forgetting that the steed etc CSM sorcerers are still an option, I need to copy/paste the index pages into my CSM codex really. I have been tempted by a daemons sorcerer on chariot a few times, and if I do stick with chaos for the long haul then I may make myself some more daemon units while I'm at it.
I also forgot that the Apostle was another HQ choice haha, but my points are so limited due to all the Engines I'm trying to pack in there that I think I need to prioritise. A lord would be handy in the rear on the gunline, and a sorcerer would be handy on the front lines. Or I could keep all my units moving and use a prince for both roles.
Saying that...my gunline currently consists of a leviathan dread. I used to have a battery of 3x Rapier Quad Heavy Bolters, but tapping into renegades was causing issues with them not having any other decent units to field along with it. So I could change the butcher cannons for Grav Flux's, and keep the Levi stomping up behind the contemptors and maulerfiend, and maybe ending up in range of a Prince aura.
Hell, might mean I could drop the need for a seperate lord and find points for two princes...
So I'll second Lindsay's question - How good is a double-DP? (DVDA?) (Sorry, couldn't help it. They do funny songs.)
If you're bringing loads of melee Daemon Engines then a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion could be incredible. With those chunky bases reaching back to them, it's like an always-on Daemonforge. Now I definitely want to give this a go with Voice do Lorgar.
JuggerAxeLord and Jugger Herald behind a Rhino full of Khorne Possessed looks pretty meaty. Maybe have an EC or Sorcerer along for the ride and you've got a Supreme Command to pick off the shelf. Make it 20 in a Spartan and we're getting close to deleting anything they reach.
Running three predators is superior to running two predators because of the +1 strength +1 damage until end of phase stratagem. I would assume a dark apostle and exalted champion in a rhino each with 9 khorne berserkers is optimal. Is running a third hq good in a melee army like Abaddon or a daemon prince? Or is two HQs as opposed to three to save points better depending on the army?
lindsay40k wrote: If you're bringing loads of melee Daemon Engines then a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion could be incredible. With those chunky bases reaching back to them, it's like an always-on Daemonforge. Now I definitely want to give this a go with Voice do Lorgar.
JuggerAxeLord and Jugger Herald behind a Rhino full of Khorne Possessed looks pretty meaty. Maybe have an EC or Sorcerer along for the ride and you've got a Supreme Command to pick off the shelf. Make it 20 in a Spartan and we're getting close to deleting anything they reach.
Voice do Lorgar?
I can see what you mean about the apostle + champion, but I only have a maulerfiend and two contemptors, so thats like... 18 attacks total? Not sure if its enough attacks to make it worthwhile, when you'd normally have berserkers or something throwing out 40 attacks or more each turn (or whatever it is they do lol).
Though I may end up making the models for it one day, just to do fun lists with added HQ's buffing units, but I'm not sure how much priority I should give them...
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-flamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Power sword
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Combi-bolter, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: 20x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators: No Chaos Mark
Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
I like this list a lot better than your last list, but am wondering where the Primaris-killers are. It feels like your solution for them is Plasma, Plasma, Plasma. Which might work, only I think they can bring more than you are bringing.
When I read your list of available units, I thought 2 Preds with autocannons and heavy bolters might be nice options. Not positive how they compare to a HLD tho.
What is the reason for 10x Terminators instead of 2x5 Terminators? Feels like you would want to split them to keep wounds from spilling over, and maybe to position them in different places.
Naaww. Keep those Terminators in a Squad of ten and give them the mark of Slaanesh for the Strategem.
It is a lot of eggs in one basket, but man, what a basket!!
I tried a squad of 10 Terminators and the fist attempt was disappointing. 7 of them with combi-plasmas, 2 combi-bolters,1 Heavy flamer and a combination of power axes, power swords and a couple of power fists. Quite pricy but I couldn't wait to activate the stratagem on them.
Nothing worked as I expected. Crazy bad rolls on the first shooting (killed 2 Screammers) and bad positioning didn't allow me to shoot at the Daemon Prince of my opponent with the Stratagem. Killed a couple of Tzaangors instead and charged the Daemon Prince thanks to Warptime. Didn't even touch him, flew on his turn and charged the termies with a bunch of Horrors after shooting the hell out of them with a squad of Rubrics.
Now, that bad game was a combination of poor rools and a lot of mistakes on my own - I even forgot the Terminators have 2 attacks! - but it seems to me that having 2 squads of 5, or even just one squad of 5 trmies with combi-plasma works better and makes harder for your opponent to focus on just one big target.
I will try again with that unit since I own the models, but don't think I am including that big squad in my future lists. Hopefully you guys can avoid the big amount of mistakes I made.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your first problem was not using the Reaper Autocannon over the Heavy Flamer. It actually works well if you plan that double tap drop.
Oh, that is a nice idea, and I have a model with a Repaer Autocannon (yes, I have a lot of Terminators). I can equip both on a squad of 10, right? The rule says I can equip one special weapon for each 5 models.
Some things i'm starting to see time and time again with my IW's
1. Obilts are actually rather good and when they roll good they are amazing
2. DPs really gonna gear mine now to survive instead of being choppy... they aint making it there more times than they do
3. Meltagun havocs in a rhino.. just not feeling them seem to die to easily before getting into that nice 6" range.
4. vindicators ... meh
5. lascannon havocs - outstanding
I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
While I'm asking Tzeentch related things, what do people think of the Rubrics at the moment? Their statline seems inferior to noise marines, but their auto-sorcerer and weapon options seem like it might be interesting. How do people run them? Or are they just inferior to noise marines across the board?
edit: Also, Warp Talons vs Raptors - Do either of these have a decent place in a list, or are they seen as being a bit too weak? The only thing I've seen is on 1D4chan, which pretty much says they're both worthless, but that hasn't been updated since the Index so I dunno if anything has changed...
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
If I were to run two units of Oblits, it would definitely be one of each. No point taking more than 1 slaanesh unit, except that I guess the first one will die haha but usually by then you're pretty low on CP anyhow.
I do prefer the slaanesh approach over the Tzeentch approach for a single unit, but if you have other units that are making use of the double fire stratagem, then it's fine to do mono Tzeentch Oblits. As long as you don't wind up with enough CP to multi fire a unit, and have no slaanesh units on the board, with a decent amount of regularity, you're doing just fine.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
Probably means the stacking -1 to hit fro Changeling and Alpha Legion. Put them in cover for a 1+ armor save too.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
Its a -2 to hit if you're within 9" of Changling, and outside 12" of enemies due to Alpha Legion. It absolutely was soul-crushing for my Guard playing opponent, misery inducing for a 'Nid opponent, and ditto vs. an Ork player who functionally couldn't shoot them.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
Its a -2 to hit if you're within 9" of Changling, and outside 12" of enemies due to Alpha Legion. It absolutely was soul-crushing for my Guard playing opponent, misery inducing for a 'Nid opponent, and ditto vs. an Ork player who functionally couldn't shoot them.
It is tragic, which is part of why these armies struggle so mightily in the competitive scene right now. Multiple negative modifiers and no way to mitigate them are awful for armies that don't have a 3+ BS in the first place. It's why footslogging warp talons are great in alpha legion, as well as the Maulerfiend.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your first problem was not using the Reaper Autocannon over the Heavy Flamer. It actually works well if you plan that double tap drop.
Oh, that is a nice idea, and I have a model with a Repaer Autocannon (yes, I have a lot of Terminators). I can equip both on a squad of 10, right? The rule says I can equip one special weapon for each 5 models.
Yep. You can divert the Autocannons as needed too. Even Conscripts will lose like 9-10 models to Autocannons doubling on them while the Plasma goes after other targets twice.
Has anyone thought about being a real meany and have an army of:
Nurgle ThunderHawk with a sorcerer to give it -1 to hit,
The Changeling
And as many Warptalons and Obliteraters you can fit into a list.
Everything is either -2 to hit or can't be fired upon whilst not being the closest model, you'll have a stupid amount of fire power with the Oblits and ThunderHawk and the Warptalons can do some heavy lifting in CQC. Off the top of my head, would that be 3 units of Oblits and 3 units of Talons along with the characters and flyer in a 2000pt list?
I'm usually taking a Daemons Battalion with two Nurgling Squads and a Plaguebearers squad. Mischief Makers is excellent, you can easily have four objectives under your control at the start of Maelstrom and it seems to take about a dozen shots fired to kill a single base. They can draw an opponent out to where your mobile units can charge them, which if you have Fiends is brilliant as it locks down an entire flank's shooting. The Plaguebearers make an infuriatingly robust speedbump or screen that doesn't need cover, and are good guards for a Herald throwing healing spells at Obliterators or my DP.
I'll also take a Word Bearers Battalion with three Cultist units, two of them pretty minimal to just screen deep strikes, one of them quite large to do a human attack wave that puts itself in harm's way to draw fire before being recycled & outflanking.
I flirted with CSM squads but they're just too expensive compared with four times as many Cultists. My Bolter guys now serve as ablative wounds in Havoc Squads, or as Rapier crew.
Not impressed with the other Daemon infantry, T3 is just not good enough for melee specialists with no Transports when I have Berzerkers and Possessed, haven't even bothered trying to get a summoned daemon bomb ploy together. I don't mind paying Reinforcement Points for them but the fact that they also have to wait for a character to get into position and then forfeit a movement phase is really not drawing me in, this Attack will broadcast itself.
Pink Horrors would be a must have were I not playing Power games where generating two blues or a single brimstone would cost as many Reinforcement points as Epidemius. I hope we get a TSons Codex before long with a more granular costing for them in the Power Level Matched Play that GW have explicitly endorsed with the Throne of Skulls setup.
mrhappyface wrote: Has anyone thought about being a real meany and have an army of:
Nurgle ThunderHawk with a sorcerer to give it -1 to hit,
The Changeling
And as many Warptalons and Obliteraters you can fit into a list.
Everything is either -2 to hit or can't be fired upon whilst not being the closest model, you'll have a stupid amount of fire power with the Oblits and ThunderHawk and the Warptalons can do some heavy lifting in CQC. Off the top of my head, would that be 3 units of Oblits and 3 units of Talons along with the characters and flyer in a 2000pt list?
I assume you're picking warp talons because they get the changeling buff as they're counted as daemons? I'm currently waiting for a reply regarding the usefulness of talons vs raptors, as I know talons can't get marks and dont seem to get much in the way of buffs from other units (they get changeling buff, but changeling needs to be within 9" and talons will be deep striking).
Also, wouldn't the oblits be better off being slaneesh, for the double fire?
And the chances of all those units being within 9" of the footslogging changeling is slim, likely only one or two units at any given time, I'd have thought...
@Niiru - I dig Warp Talons, their purpose is not so much to actually kill stuff but to be a disruptive factor. Deep strike in, Warptime, declare a charge against everything within 12", see how far you can get. If you're not facing Ultramarines or Harlequins or various FLY or TITANIC stuff, everyone you tag loses a shooting phase. And even if you are, you can disarm a unit that has horrific Overwatch so that your real shock Troops can get stuck in. MOS is probably best for them ATM, extra hits against half the armies you'll face and access to an endurance spell from the sorcerer that Warptimed them.
Raptors are interesting with an Icon of Despair but everything they do seems to be done better by other units.
So, after playing three tournament games and one casual game with Berzerkers, I'm actually feeling a little underwhelmed with how they do. In all four of the games they really didn't ever get to charge anything interesting thanks to intervening chaff units (cultists, conscripts, etc.) and their Rhinos more often than not just got popped before they could get close enough, meaning the Zerkers just got shot off the table. In the tournament I was running three units, in the casual game I only ran two, and I actually did get a charge in against some Genestealers, but after one round of combat my opponent just spent 2 CP to interrupt and scrag them. In one of the tournament games, I attempted a last-ditch Hail Mary effort to take out Roboute Guilliman, and same story (interrupted combat and destroyed them). I'm starting to think maybe they aren't as powerful as I've been led to believe. Two rounds of attacks don't mean jack if your opponent just gets to interrupt combat and wipe them out.
I ran Khorne berserkers for the first time Wednesday against my brother's four razorbacks with two assault cannons each, three predators with four lascannons, a land raider with four lascannons, and two vindicators all with 4+ invulnerable saves next to his special character. He blew up both my
rhinos before I got to charge and charged me with his predator. It took two turns and two cp points of +1 to wound strategem to destroy the predator and afterwards my Khorne berserkers were shot off the table. I managed to use the 1 cp stratgem to give my three predators +1 strength and +1
wound until end of phase which with my autocannons was devastating against him. I took out four vehicles but still lost. I hope my Khorne berserkers will do better this Thursday against either my friend's black templars, chaos space marines, inquisition, or orks. I'll remember to use smoke launchers
this time, and am going to run a dark apostle and exalted champion this time. Although I only played one game with Khorne berserkers and they underperformed, and with the person's post above me who said they underperform, I'm getting worried that they are overrated too. I guess they are good
against plague marines though. Which are a popular army now these days due to the starter set. What do you guys think of Khorne berserkers or had any luck with them? Thanks.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, after playing three tournament games and one casual game with Berzerkers, I'm actually feeling a little underwhelmed with how they do. In all four of the games they really didn't ever get to charge anything interesting thanks to intervening chaff units (cultists, conscripts, etc.) and their Rhinos more often than not just got popped before they could get close enough, meaning the Zerkers just got shot off the table. In the tournament I was running three units, in the casual game I only ran two, and I actually did get a charge in against some Genestealers, but after one round of combat my opponent just spent 2 CP to interrupt and scrag them. In one of the tournament games, I attempted a last-ditch Hail Mary effort to take out Roboute Guilliman, and same story (interrupted combat and destroyed them). I'm starting to think maybe they aren't as powerful as I've been led to believe. Two rounds of attacks don't mean jack if your opponent just gets to interrupt combat and wipe them out.
Delivery is an issue, as it always has been. Part of the reason Berzerkers get multiple fight phases is to offset the losses they take getting to the front lines.
What size were the units of Berzerkers? What other units were part of your army, taking some of the heat off the Berzerkers themselves? Did you advance the Rhinos to maximize distance towards your opponent? Did you have an IC with the Berzerkers to get some rerolls on the first activation? (While this isn't fluffy) did you Warptime them to get into combat faster?
You're right, a good opponent will always shield their juicy units with lots of chaff. I generally look at Berzerkers as a way of clearing the lower value units quickly and MAYBE taking out an IC / bigger threat. I also always take them with an IC who allows them to reroll failed hits / wounds. It's important to kill off a bunch of your opponent's units with the first fight activation exactly for the reason you mention, interruption can diminish the impact of their assaults substantially.
I can second that berzerkers are overrated. People keep looking at their sheer amounts of dice and using them in optimal conditions. If that's possible in your meta, your opponents are weak. They're useful but they are hit or miss, all or nothing, and can quite easily fail to do anything of use. They're still a threat on the table that must be dealt with. Putting them in vehicles for delivery buys you time to eat away the chaff.
Noise Marines remain far superior in my book, especially Alpha Legion ones.
Anyone heard of the terminator heavy list with combi-bolters that can beat conscript armies? Anyways, what's the best configuration for noise marines? I'm running 10 for the first time in a rhino Thursday unless told otherwise. Thanks.
BillyN831 wrote: Anyone heard of the terminator heavy list with combi-bolters that can beat conscript armies? Anyways, what's the best configuration for noise marines? I'm running 10 for the first time in a rhino Thursday unless told otherwise. Thanks.
It's probably drop-in, blast, and charge with reroll auras from Chapter Masters. I've gone up against such lists and it's brutal the amount of durability and firepower they can have. Were I not Alpha Legion, I'd have been crushed entirely but I just kept running away with Noise Marines and gunning them down. Missiles hurt, axes hurt, power fists hurt, super flamers hurt, everything hurts. You can have some of them on the field firing long range weapons and then drop in the other half of your army wherever it needs to obliterate.
Berzerkers are utterly terrifying, and your opponent will do their best to take them out before they can charge. A single squad in a Rhino won't cut it, not unless you're in a particularly dense Cities of Death board. Or fighting at night. If you're trying an assault army, you need to heavily commit - sending a single rhino to run at enemy lines is not going to happen. It'll function as a mobile DS counter attacker unit, but not as a rushdown. Take like three of them. One gets blown up when you lose first turn, the other gets blown up after popping smoke and it's battered passengers beat up some Scouts, the other just about makes it.
This is also why I think Warptimed Warp Talons have their use - the 'eat Overwatch by charging with a transport' trick assumes a transport will survive the journey to the enemy lines intact enough to make that charge. WTWTs can eliminate Overwatch without risk whilst zerks do the actual killing,
Arkaine wrote: I can second that berzerkers are overrated. People keep looking at their sheer amounts of dice and using them in optimal conditions. If that's possible in your meta, your opponents are weak. They're useful but they are hit or miss, all or nothing, and can quite easily fail to do anything of use. They're still a threat on the table that must be dealt with. Putting them in vehicles for delivery buys you time to eat away the chaff.
Noise Marines remain far superior in my book, especially Alpha Legion ones.
Footslogging berserkers are suboptimal. Throw them in a rhino and they are rightfully terrifying again.
Noise marines are awesome, but why not have both? The most recent iteration of my competitive list has 3 rhinos. What's in them? Two squads of zerkers and 1 squad of noise marines
luke1705 wrote: Footslogging berserkers are suboptimal. Throw them in a rhino and they are rightfully terrifying again.
I never see footslogging berzerkers. They are always in a rhino, drop pod, or spartan assault tank. They are still suboptimal to people's expectations. Noise Marines far exceed expectations every time.
luke1705 wrote: Footslogging berserkers are suboptimal. Throw them in a rhino and they are rightfully terrifying again.
I never see footslogging berzerkers. They are always in a rhino, drop pod, or spartan assault tank. They are still suboptimal to people's expectations. Noise Marines far exceed expectations every time.
An Assault 3 Bolter is not better than actually killing the Conscripts in a round. Noise Marines are safer, but they're not better.
I agree with Slayer, and say that as someone loving masses of Noise Marines.
I think Berserkers are just a higher execution unit. I think a good player can deliver them, and turn them into a devastatingly powerful assault that will make them easily worth their points. Noise Marines have a lower ceiling on what they can do, but what they do they do so much more "easily" than Berserkers.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I agree with Slayer, and say that as someone loving masses of Noise Marines.
I think Berserkers are just a higher execution unit. I think a good player can deliver them, and turn them into a devastatingly powerful assault that will make them easily worth their points. Noise Marines have a lower ceiling on what they can do, but what they do they do so much more "easily" than Berserkers.
A higher execution unit indeed. After they do what they wanted to turn 1, they are highly executed.
Noise Marines have never died in any of the games I've fielded them despite being the target of many volleys. It is far easier to keep them alive than it is the Berzerkers and they buy their value quickly. If you're throwing Berzerkers at conscripts, I feel like they are being underutilized. Perfect conscript killers no doubt but pricey and suicidal to be used just for that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Berzerkers, to be highly effective, require suiciding alongside them the vehicle transporting them, the Dark Apostle, the Exalted Champion, and possibly a sorcerer to get them assuredly into combat.
Noise Marines, to be highly effective, require a Slaanesh Sorcerer casting Delightful Agonies and Prescience safely surrounded by Noise Marines who can not only be in cover for +1 armor, can not only be outside the rapid fire range of most guns, but can also sport that Alpha Legion legion trait to its fullest rather than venturing up close where it's ineffective. Heck, you can even infiltrate them wherever you need them to be for turn 1 shooting. A Chaos Lord rerolling 1s is just added gravy and having assault weapons means they can retreat and fire if threatened.
On death Noise Marines are STILL useful with revenge kills while Zerkers die in a fire even if the succeeded their charge last turn due to Fall Back. Definitely incomparable units.
People don't always seem to understand that there is tactical value in things beyond the raw math-hammer. If your army has multiple, meaningful threat vectors, and your opponent spends their turn killing off Berserkers (who earned back their points in a likely alpha-strike), then they are tactically misplaying, or ignoring other targets.
If they ignore the Berserkers, they face another dilemma in them later.
I love Noise Marines, and I get it... you're trying super hard to paint them as objectively better... but they're not, they're just wildly different.
Khorne berserkers are not distraction carnifexes, but glass cannons. I wonder if running two landraiders is better than two rhinos. I run three predators and they sometimes become priority targets over my khorne berserkers because of the +1 strength\ +1 damage stratagem, which wreck vehicles
and monsters. Anyways, what's the best load out for noise marines? I'm playing them for the first time this Thursday. Thanks.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I agree with Slayer, and say that as someone loving masses of Noise Marines.
I think Berserkers are just a higher execution unit. I think a good player can deliver them, and turn them into a devastatingly powerful assault that will make them easily worth their points. Noise Marines have a lower ceiling on what they can do, but what they do they do so much more "easily" than Berserkers.
A higher execution unit indeed. After they do what they wanted to turn 1, they are highly executed.
Noise Marines have never died in any of the games I've fielded them despite being the target of many volleys. It is far easier to keep them alive than it is the Berzerkers and they buy their value quickly. If you're throwing Berzerkers at conscripts, I feel like they are being underutilized. Perfect conscript killers no doubt but pricey and suicidal to be used just for that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Berzerkers, to be highly effective, require suiciding alongside them the vehicle transporting them, the Dark Apostle, the Exalted Champion, and possibly a sorcerer to get them assuredly into combat.
Noise Marines, to be highly effective, require a Slaanesh Sorcerer casting Delightful Agonies and Prescience safely surrounded by Noise Marines who can not only be in cover for +1 armor, can not only be outside the rapid fire range of most guns, but can also sport that Alpha Legion legion trait to its fullest rather than venturing up close where it's ineffective. Heck, you can even infiltrate them wherever you need them to be for turn 1 shooting. A Chaos Lord rerolling 1s is just added gravy and having assault weapons means they can retreat and fire if threatened.
On death Noise Marines are STILL useful with revenge kills while Zerkers die in a fire even if the succeeded their charge last turn due to Fall Back. Definitely incomparable units.
1. Berserker Marines don't NEED all those characters, if any at all. Dark Apostle at most. Otherwise, why don't your Noise Marines need the Exalted Champion too? Why am I casting Precience on Noise Marines instead of Obliterators? See how this works? They have enough weight of attacks that you don't NEED rerolls. In this line of thought, they don't need the babysitting. It's just a nice bonus
2. Berserker Marines can be Alpha Legion too? Infiltrate them or enjoy the fact that the squads they didn't wipe out are suffering a -1 to hit them unless they're super close? And they can't benefit from cover before charging in?
3. I'll give you the death bonus, but Berserker Marines already attack twice so meh.
Sorry, but Berserker Marines actually fulfill a niche. Noise Marines really don't. Not to say they're bad, but they're not as good. They'll be better objective campers but they're floppers offensively.
Both units need a rhino (sorry landraider. I don't need one of you instead of 3 rhinos)
Both units kill hordes/force a ton of saves. Zerkers do so in close combat, whereas noise marines do it in shooting.
They actually complement each other very well because as has been pointed out, if you just use zerkers, what are you killing? Brims? Conscripts? Cultists? Congrats. They fall back and then your zerkers haven't made their points back, but are dead.
That's where the noise marines come in. On turn 1, the noise marines kill the hordes at range. By turn 2, they're dead (the noise marines) so you're free to drop in and double fire the oblits. Turn 2 or 3, you've cleared out enough chaff to be able to charge real things with the zerkers, so they do so.
People who are seeing their zerkers never get to combat at all are just people whose lists are only partly good. If your opponent has to kill many units of anything, he won't be able to do it all in one turn. Grab an oblit squad, some deep striking warp talons, and a warp timed maulerfiend in addition to those berserkers in a rhino and the noise marines in a rhino. Turn 1, those are all VERY REAL threats. If I'm the opponent, what do I do? Their are good answers but not great ones. And if my opponent spends an entire turn killing a rhino and gunning down the zerkers (who weren't even going to charge on turn 2 most likely) then the rest of my army will punish them.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, after playing three tournament games and one casual game with Berzerkers, I'm actually feeling a little underwhelmed with how they do. In all four of the games they really didn't ever get to charge anything interesting thanks to intervening chaff units (cultists, conscripts, etc.) and their Rhinos more often than not just got popped before they could get close enough, meaning the Zerkers just got shot off the table. In the tournament I was running three units, in the casual game I only ran two, and I actually did get a charge in against some Genestealers, but after one round of combat my opponent just spent 2 CP to interrupt and scrag them. In one of the tournament games, I attempted a last-ditch Hail Mary effort to take out Roboute Guilliman, and same story (interrupted combat and destroyed them). I'm starting to think maybe they aren't as powerful as I've been led to believe. Two rounds of attacks don't mean jack if your opponent just gets to interrupt combat and wipe them out.
Delivery is an issue, as it always has been. Part of the reason Berzerkers get multiple fight phases is to offset the losses they take getting to the front lines.
What size were the units of Berzerkers? What other units were part of your army, taking some of the heat off the Berzerkers themselves? Did you advance the Rhinos to maximize distance towards your opponent? Did you have an IC with the Berzerkers to get some rerolls on the first activation? (While this isn't fluffy) did you Warptime them to get into combat faster?
You're right, a good opponent will always shield their juicy units with lots of chaff. I generally look at Berzerkers as a way of clearing the lower value units quickly and MAYBE taking out an IC / bigger threat. I also always take them with an IC who allows them to reroll failed hits / wounds. It's important to kill off a bunch of your opponent's units with the first fight activation exactly for the reason you mention, interruption can diminish the impact of their assaults substantially.
My list in the tournament consisted of a Battalion Detachment of World Eaters, with a Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion, and 3 units of Berzerkers in Rhinos (1 10-man, the other two 9-man to leave room for the characters), alongside an Alpha Legion Battalion with a bunch of Cultists, Slaanesh melta-bikers, a Slaanesh DP with the Elixir, a couple of bike Sorcerers, and two Melta/Fist Helbrutes (loadout due to being the DV model). I did advance and pop smoke the first turn with the Rhinos each game, but admittedly I deployed a little sheepishly because I was afraid if I didn't get first turn I'd just lose the Rhinos and be footslogging up the board, getting shot to pieces along the way. One of my Sorcerers did have Warptime and I did use it, but again perhaps not optimally. My first opponent was Ultramarines with Guilliman, a couple of Hellblaster squads, a pair of Stormravens, a Culexus Assassin, and two Las Predators. I managed to pop both Preds in the first turn between my Helbrutes and the Bikers using Endless Cacophony, but the Stormravens just chewed my stuff up, including my DP when I left him wide open (I've gotta learn to defend against flyers better). The other two games were even worse, with a Chaos soup list (8 Malefic Lords, 2 Iron Warriors Sorcerers, 3 squads of Nurglings, and 3 30-man Cultist squads, plus 900-plus points of Summoning used for Slaanesh Heralds) that just ate me alive with Smites, and a gunline Guard list with a couple of big blobs of Conscripts, several artillery batteries (2 Manticore ones and 3 Basilisk ones, the ones that are just the gun in both cases, not the vehicles), Yarrick, and a bunch of dropping Elysians with plasma, plus 2 Vultures. This is the kind of meta I'm in, where everyone makes like it's Adepticon every friggin' week. The only thing I can think of to do is "gitgud", but it's harder than it looks.
Thinking back I can see some areas in which I should have just flat played better, as I made some poor tactical choices. Next time I'll bring some Noise Marines along (assuming my aftermarket sonic weapons arrive in a timely manner) and probably only 2 Berzerker squads, and hopefully I can figure out what else would work good to support them.
You need to be able to safely and reliably get them where you need them. Rhinos will do, I guess, but a Kharybdis will all but guaranteed the delivery of your angry lil boys.
I run a Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion and 2x 9 Squads w/ Icons inside a Kharybdis. The daddy pod charges things first, Zerkers go in after.
Yes, infiltrating them as Alpha Legion can work, but you need to ensure you are very low on drops so that they are given the best chance of going first.
I think one thing we forget, as well... and this is a general tactica thing, is that even at tournaments, not every player is a tactical-genius, top ranked player. We all build for those, but sometimes i'll go to a medium sized tournament (say... 30 players for argument sake), and will end up in a final round against a very nice, very cool opponent, who will have made it there with their Black Templars... puts whatever they can in Landraiders, and says "gak it" and just enjoys playing.
If you happen to play someone who didn't bring the now expected 50 Conscripts/Brimstones/Cultists, etc... suddenly a VotLW on Berserkers is taking out twice their points, right out of the gates.
I know this could be said for many, many units... but i'm mostly just making the point that sometimes when enjoying these Tactica threads, we forget that the top 1% of players will require the most optimized EVERYTHING to have a fair fighting chance against, but most of the other 99% of gamers will have fits against a ton of what we can bring.
For every Rhino of Berzerkers, you want two Fiends. They can hide behind the Rhinos. When the zerks charge, you stage-manage it so that some of the target survives - remember, you don't HAVE to move your full charge and pile-in distance. If there's one or a dozen Conscripts left alive at the end of your turn, and you've got one berzerker and one fiend touching them, the entire enemy army just has to sit back and watch you stamp the survivors to death in their turn, and then get an extra 3" pile in before the dam breaks in your following turn.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I think one thing we forget, as well... and this is a general tactica thing, is that even at tournaments, not every player is a tactical-genius, top ranked player. We all build for those, but sometimes i'll go to a medium sized tournament (say... 30 players for argument sake), and will end up in a final round against a very nice, very cool opponent, who will have made it there with their Black Templars... puts whatever they can in Landraiders, and says "gak it" and just enjoys playing.
If you happen to play someone who didn't bring the now expected 50 Conscripts/Brimstones/Cultists, etc... suddenly a VotLW on Berserkers is taking out twice their points, right out of the gates.
I know this could be said for many, many units... but i'm mostly just making the point that sometimes when enjoying these Tactica threads, we forget that the top 1% of players will require the most optimized EVERYTHING to have a fair fighting chance against, but most of the other 99% of gamers will have fits against a ton of what we can bring.
Absolutely the truth. It's always a tough call to say "when is my army at the level of competitive that I want it to be?" especially because there's usually no way on a tactics thread to have any idea if the target audience wants to go try and win a GT or just play casual games against their friends and not be at a disadvantage. I always target the former because those are the kinds of lists the people I play against bring, but everyone's mileage will indeed vary.
Just an anecdote - I played a far from optimized CSM list at a very competitive tournament literally the morning the new codex came out (so naturally, everyone was playing CSM for the most part haha). Played a Necron player who had what I would characterize as a pretty good list. Yes, he made a few tactical mistakes, but if I was on his side of the table, I quite honestly have no idea how I would have bested my list.
TLDR: the import of this thread will increase over time as more codexes come out and the power level discrepancies between armies decrease. Until then, we good
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: For every Rhino of Berzerkers, you want two Fiends. They can hide behind the Rhinos. When the zerks charge, you stage-manage it so that some of the target survives - remember, you don't HAVE to move your full charge and pile-in distance. If there's one or a dozen Conscripts left alive at the end of your turn, and you've got one berzerker and one fiend touching them, the entire enemy army just has to sit back and watch you stamp the survivors to death in their turn, and then get an extra 3" pile in before the dam breaks in your following turn.
I like that idea a lot, although I swear I feel like I see so many units that can fly nowadays. Maybe it's just the Tau PTSD Personally, I just wish Skarbrand had a good delivery mechanism for the same effect
Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?
ZergSmasher wrote: Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?
He has the alpha legion keyword in his dataslate, so yes he counts. I do not believe that his FAITHLESS ability affects Alpha Legion, much like the tainted and death guard for necrosius. I don't believe there was an FAQ towards that end yet.
ZergSmasher wrote: Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?
Basically it works like how Successor Chapters work for the Loyalist Scum (see all the Badab characters basically) I imagine. He has the Alpha Legion trait, and so does the Faithless, but they aren't "Alpha Legion". So if Alpha Legion ever got a character, they wouldn't give bonuses to The Faithless, and Arkos doesn't give his bonuses to Alpha Legion. That's why he's been taken in CSM lists we saw at a few tournaments. After all, I can't imagine someone paying for him to lose the Legion bonus just for a Command Point, as that makes super little sense.
ZergSmasher wrote: Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?
Basically it works like how Successor Chapters work for the Loyalist Scum (see all the Badab characters basically) I imagine. He has the Alpha Legion trait, and so does the Faithless, but they aren't "Alpha Legion". So if Alpha Legion ever got a character, they wouldn't give bonuses to The Faithless, and Arkos doesn't give his bonuses to Alpha Legion. That's why he's been taken in CSM lists we saw at a few tournaments. After all, I can't imagine someone paying for him to lose the Legion bonus just for a Command Point, as that makes super little sense.
Arkos confused me when I first read the IA book... Mainly because I thought he was like Cypher, where his buff only applies to the "Fallen", which were then a unit listed below cypher in the book.
And Forgeworld doesn't seem to have listed any units as "Faithless", and I haven't noticed any rules anywhere to field a faithless army. So Arkos's special +1 rule only applies to... himself?
I did think at first that maybe it's just a matter of choosing your legion as "Faithless", but I know that's not actually the case because its the same as choosing regiments etc. That would give you "<LEGION:FAITHLESS> and not <THE FAITHLESS> basically, and not the right keyword.
Just seemed weird to me. I may be missing an entire set of rules somewhere though that gives units the legion keyword of faithless, but RAW he only buffs himself as far as I can see. And I don't see any fixes in the current FAQ...
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I think one thing we forget, as well... and this is a general tactica thing, is that even at tournaments, not every player is a tactical-genius, top ranked player. We all build for those, but sometimes i'll go to a medium sized tournament (say... 30 players for argument sake), and will end up in a final round against a very nice, very cool opponent, who will have made it there with their Black Templars... puts whatever they can in Landraiders, and says "gak it" and just enjoys playing.
If you happen to play someone who didn't bring the now expected 50 Conscripts/Brimstones/Cultists, etc... suddenly a VotLW on Berserkers is taking out twice their points, right out of the gates.
I know this could be said for many, many units... but i'm mostly just making the point that sometimes when enjoying these Tactica threads, we forget that the top 1% of players will require the most optimized EVERYTHING to have a fair fighting chance against, but most of the other 99% of gamers will have fits against a ton of what we can bring.
You are so right about this. I trully love reading the advice of experts about super optimized lists although I myself don't play too often. I don't know, I just find these conversations really cool.
The other day I was talking with my regular opponent about fielding a unit of 30 cultists to try the stratagem to infiltrate them and get them back on full size when needed. He answered that he wouldn't play against a list like that. Or against IG with 120 conscripts. Or against 100 brimstones and Magnus. That made me think. I don't really play competitive, I play normal games with friends and my local meta is not that expert. I like reading about competitive stuff but what I enjoy the most is converting units and spending a lot of time painting them.
Maybe some day I finish converting and painting my army and can start thinking about going to a tournament. Meanwhile, I will keep enjoying reading you guys about super competitive lists
### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Magnus the Red **
* **Malefic Lord **
* **Malefic Lord **
* **Malefic Lord **
### Battalion Detachment +3CP ###
* **Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship **
-hellstrike missles, quad-bolters, Mark of Nurgle
* **Herald of Tzeentch **
* **The Changeling **
* **18x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horrors **
* **Nurglings 3x **
* **Nurglings 3x **
* **Nurglings 3x **
* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**
* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**
List #2:
Spoiler:
## MagOblit [121 PL, 1998pts] ##
### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Magnus the Red **
* **Malefic Lord **
* **Malefic Lord **
* **Malefic Lord **
* **Malefic Lord **
### Battalion Detachment +3CP ###
* **Herald of Tzeentch **
* **The Changeling **
* **12x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horrors **
* **Nurglings 3x **
* **Nurglings 3x **
* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**
* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**
#### Spearhead Detachment +1CP ####
#### No Force Org Slot ####
* **Legion**
Alpha Legion
* **Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour :Mark of Slaanesh, The Murder Sword **
* **Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship **
-hellstrike missles, quad-bolters
* **Hellforged Rapier Battery :Laser destroyer**
* **Obliterators 3x :Mark of Tzeentch **
* **Obliterators 3x :Mark of Slaanesh **
Your first list is better, but lacks any kind of shooting threat outside of the fire raptor. Which is of course very good. Make the fire raptor nurgle and give it -2 to hit if you need that.
Also I'd change the daemons detachment to be a pure CSM Detachment so that you can get access to the stratagems and include baller units like cultists, noise marines, zerkers, oblits.
Barring that wholesale change, I'd still clear points to include a squad of zerkers in a rhino as the elites slot in one of your command Detachments. Would probably drop the spawn for this
Niiru wrote: What are people's opinions on disks of tzeentch? Herald on disk, or CSM lord or sorcerer on disk?
I get the impression that the disk is a silly option compared to the (cheaper) jetpack for csm, and the chariot for the herald?
I'm tempted to model my units on disks anyway, as they look pretty cool, and have them counts as jetpacks, but I thought I'd get some feedback first!
Gives them the Daemon Subtype, which means it stacks w/ Changeling etc. Good for that level of cohesion if you wanted, but typically a jetpack as you said is just simpler and better, due to deep strike.
Herald on Disc is an ok accompaniment for Possessed. I've been looking at Chariot Herald, thinking it could take a few more hits from snipers, psychic powers, etc, whilst being able to dish out a bit of damage. The thing there is, when you have multiple units in a pile-on, it's really easy for the victim to just remove a few casualties and leave a unit unable to pile-in and more exposed.
Just got back from a game in which Fiends enabled me to bring down a Knight. They charged after I used Insane Bravery to keep a lone Seeker in play after it had stomped her sisters, so no overwatch. Kept it locked in combat whilst my Diabolical Strength Daemon Prince kept punching it. That got me a load of VPs from a Tactical Objective, then next turn everyone just fell back from various brawl to throw psychic powers at Harald Deathwolf to fulfil another. Don't ever lose sight of your victory conditions - they were the only units I killed in a 150pow battle but along with objective sitting I ended up with 10VPs at the end.
Niiru wrote: What are people's opinions on disks of tzeentch? Herald on disk, or CSM lord or sorcerer on disk?
I get the impression that the disk is a silly option compared to the (cheaper) jetpack for csm, and the chariot for the herald?
I'm tempted to model my units on disks anyway, as they look pretty cool, and have them counts as jetpacks, but I thought I'd get some feedback first!
If it didn't get rid of their Legion bonuses for doing it I'd be all over the demonic mounts. As it is, I would rather the bike or Jump Pack.
I think I'll stick with jump packs, or teminator armour if necessary. My current puzzle is to try and find an alternative model for an Exalted Flamer. I am not a fan of a lot of the daemons models (pretty sure they're all really old as well), but the unit seem decent on paper. Considered doing a counts-as as some kind of bike or mounted unit. The original model is an unusual size/shape which makes it trickier.
Niiru wrote: What are people's opinions on disks of tzeentch? Herald on disk, or CSM lord or sorcerer on disk?
I get the impression that the disk is a silly option compared to the (cheaper) jetpack for csm, and the chariot for the herald?
I'm tempted to model my units on disks anyway, as they look pretty cool, and have them counts as jetpacks, but I thought I'd get some feedback first!
If it didn't get rid of their Legion bonuses for doing it I'd be all over the demonic mounts. As it is, I would rather the bike or Jump Pack.
Taking a Daemonic mount gets rid of legion bonuses? I always figured a World Eaters lord could take a Juggernaut and still be fine since he's marked Khorne (likewise an EC character could take a Steed of Slaanesh). Is that not true?
Kinda why I dig Steeds so much, as a Word Bearer my leaders aren't missing out on squat. Heck, I'll put them in a Daemon detachment. Throw in some Plague Ogryns or such.
Kinda why I dig Steeds so much, as a Word Bearer my leaders aren't missing out on squat. Heck, I'll put them in a Daemon detachment. Throw in some Plague Ogryns or such.
Oh. Derp. I thought he was saying that it cancels the whole army's legion trait (like taking Daemons in the same detachment). It only means the character himself does not benefit. I get it.
Which means some legions won't care and could take characters on mounts without any meaningful penalty. Alpha Legion wouldn't care as characters can't be targeted anyway. World Eaters would care a lot, as the +1 attack on the charge is kind of a big deal for them.
That being said, is it really ever worth it to spring for a mount on a character? I feel that Juggerlords at least are overcosted in 8th, which is a shame because I used to use my Juggerlord model all the time back in 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin.
I saw obliterators own tonight. How do they compare to havocs and predators? Also whats the best relics to give dark apostles and exalted champions? Thanks.
Just came back from a game against a Death Guard player. Man, Mortarion is powerful, he just would not go down.
He wiped out a squad of 10 Terminators by himself, then went on to shrug off damage from the rest of my army. In the second turn, he took 12 Lascannon shots, 96 Sonic Blaster shots, 8 Blastmaster shots, 16 Bolter shots and 3 Combi-plasma shots for a total of 10 unsaved wounds. He was -1 to hit and my opponent kept making 4+ DRs when it counted.
Afterwards, in assault, Abaddon failed to put any wounds on him, a squad of 10 CSMs failed to get a hit on him, and he blew up a used a command point interrupt to kill a Helbrute.
I conceded after that. It FEELS BAD fighting Mortarion. You drop a ton of shots on him, they do nothing, then he tears up something else.
techsoldaten wrote: Just came back from a game against a Death Guard player. Man, Mortarion is powerful, he just would not go down.
He wiped out a squad of 10 Terminators by himself, then went on to shrug off damage from the rest of my army. In the second turn, he took 12 Lascannon shots, 96 Sonic Blaster shots, 8 Blastmaster shots, 16 Bolter shots and 3 Combi-plasma shots for a total of 10 unsaved wounds. He was -1 to hit and my opponent kept making 4+ DRs when it counted.
Afterwards, in assault, Abaddon failed to put any wounds on him, a squad of 10 CSMs failed to get a hit on him, and he blew up a used a command point interrupt to kill a Helbrute.
I conceded after that. It FEELS BAD fighting Mortarion. You drop a ton of shots on him, they do nothing, then he tears up something else.
He was lucky in his saves. Not that 12 lascannon shots is enough. But from what you said, he really did take a ton of shooting and lived through it to continue to wreck face. We all have games like this every now and then. On his bad day. The 12 lascannon shots might get 8 hits, 6 wounds, and he fails the saves on 4 of them and you roll 5s and 6s on it, and he fails all his DR and he dies on the first turn just to lascannon fire.
I see a lot of love for the Kharybdis Assault Claw in this thread but not much for Dreadclaws. Has anyone had much luck using them? I mean, I get it - Kharybdis gets a LOT of extra firepower and double the capacity for 100pts over the Dreadclaw, but are they really that bad, or is the Kharybdis just far more points efficient by comparison? I'm looking at picking up a Dreadclaw but if they're bad I don't want to waste my money.
I have 2 Dreadclaws I've yet to build... I plan to use them to drop Berzerkers in, for funnies, but I'm just more or less resigned to that because it's fun and exciting to me and not because it's "good." Check out the discussion we had a few pages back for more detail and some statistics.
Too many points for Dreadclaws. Reduce them to ~7-8 power level and ~125-150 points and I'd be far more motivated to build and use them. I just feel like I'd rather take 2 Rhinos and still have points to spare. Shooty units sound decent, but then, I'd rather drop 5 terminators for 14 PL than spend 17 PL on 5 havocs or chosen.
Taking multiple units in either pod seems like the more cost efficient choice, but then you have to balance them all out with units deployed on the table. Renegades and Heretics can help there, as mutants are the cheapest way to do that and still get s battalion easily.
Kharybdis has the melta ram or whatever, and lots of Dakka, so those 5 PL or hundred points are really going a long way. I'd say it is appropriately costed, but the Dreadclaw... ugh. It needs some revision.
Dreadclaw's abilities do seem to make it quite the distraction carnifex. When I drop it and ten Chosen, they tend to outlive it. That's not to say it's a better choice than five Terminators. If you want to drop a Contemptor, they're probably the best option ATM. But yeah, they're not as good as two and a half Rhinos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of which - I'm shortly going to build my Dreadclaw Contemptor, what sort of loadout works? The Butcher Cannon looks best, but it's long range seems wasted on a deep insertion unit. It's got a good chance of a rendezvous with a DP for re-rolls, so Chainclaw, Plasma blaster, Multi-Melta? Or I dunno, I guess after having to roll to wound and enemies sometimes having invulnerable saves and modifiers to be hit, maybe the soulburner is better?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm. Multi-melta… now, my big targets are a Knight and Blizzard Shield dread, Hierodule, Swarmlord, and a Carnifex. Wolf Guard Terminators as well. There's quite a lot of invulnerable saves there, making two MWs and an extra attack likely better than 4.5W after wound & save. So perhaps I will drop the big guns altogether and go full melee.
If there were lots of mundane dreads, or Rhinos, it'd be decent. But this meta wants more MWs and more punches.
Eldenfirefly wrote: He was lucky in his saves. Not that 12 lascannon shots is enough. But from what you said, he really did take a ton of shooting and lived through it to continue to wreck face. We all have games like this every now and then. On his bad day. The 12 lascannon shots might get 8 hits, 6 wounds, and he fails the saves on 4 of them and you roll 5s and 6s on it, and he fails all his DR and he dies on the first turn just to lascannon fire.
There was some luck involved, I would say my opponent was rolling slightly above average. One or two more failed saves would have swung the game.
Still, Mortarion performs very well on the tabletop. He killed 7 CSM Terminators like it was nothing, then stood up to a ton of shooting. You could not expect this outcome in every game, but the fact it could happen - ouch.
Out of curiosity, for someone running multiple detachments of different legions, what do DG bring to the table that chaos as a whole might benefit from. Mortarion of course, but what else?
I'm inclined to consider running them as a core battalion. They offer a number of useful troop choices. The CT is nice for cultists, poxwalkers give a source of fearless chaff that can hold the line pretty well, and plague marines can be hard to push off an objective.
I suppose blightcrawlers also give an option for indirect fire that isn't R&H or forgeworld, though mostly good for shooting things that hide out of LoS, they themselves are a bit pricey to leave parked back with just the main gun.
Anything else people have noticed that gives chaos new options?
SilverAlien wrote: Out of curiosity, for someone running multiple detachments of different legions, what do DG bring to the table that chaos as a whole might benefit from. Mortarion of course, but what else?
I'm inclined to consider running them as a core battalion. They offer a number of useful troop choices. The CT is nice for cultists, poxwalkers give a source of fearless chaff that can hold the line pretty well, and plague marines can be hard to push off an objective.
I suppose blightcrawlers also give an option for indirect fire that isn't R&H or forgeworld, though mostly good for shooting things that hide out of LoS, they themselves are a bit pricey to leave parked back with just the main gun.
Anything else people have noticed that gives chaos new options?
Mostly what you mentioned. But I look at it the other way around - what does CSM bring to DG that they would appreciate? And there are a lot of good answers to that - oblits, maulerfiends, better cultists for the poxwalkers to watch die, zerkers, noise marines, awesome psychic powers...it's a long list.
That might lead you to believe that DG are better as support for CSM, as you've noted. However, take Mortarion, then 40-60 poxwalkers, 2 HQ's (one of which has to be typhus) and you're suddenly at a LOT of points. Just what I listed is 1125 with necrosius as the second HQ. At that point, you're better served asking "what can I bring from CSM to complete my death guard army?"
SilverAlien wrote: Out of curiosity, for someone running multiple detachments of different legions, what do DG bring to the table that chaos as a whole might benefit from. Mortarion of course, but what else?
I'm inclined to consider running them as a core battalion. They offer a number of useful troop choices. The CT is nice for cultists, poxwalkers give a source of fearless chaff that can hold the line pretty well, and plague marines can be hard to push off an objective.
I suppose blightcrawlers also give an option for indirect fire that isn't R&H or forgeworld, though mostly good for shooting things that hide out of LoS, they themselves are a bit pricey to leave parked back with just the main gun.
Anything else people have noticed that gives chaos new options?
Bunch of extra Epidemius-compatible units. Blight-Haulers and Bloat Drones are quite capable of seeking & destroying crippled units and adding to the tally.
Daemon Prince with DR and Contagion.
Nurgle's Rot Stratagem, interesting potential there to counter teams of characters and the bizarre fractured command squads.
Putrifier + Blight Bombardment + VOTLW + Presicence from CCSM Sorcerer. Could do a lot to a unit with high invulnerables.
Terminators with T5, 4++, DR, and better Heavy Flamer & power weapons.
Walking Dead Stratagem, whilst deliberately exposing another Legion's cultist horde to heavy firepower (maybe even have them get a load of units to congregate in melee and drop Nurgle's Rot & Linebreaker Bombardment into the fray), then recycle the Cultists anyway.
For poxfodder, Considering using renegade and heretics mutants instead of cultists . Less bonuses but cheaper to give them morale resistance. (And the enforcers kill extra for you !)
I think I asked this a while ago, but it was among a few other questions that there was a discussion about, and I think I forgot about it at the time haha...
But yeh, I'm in the middle of trying to decide on a theme for my upcoming Chaos army, and I'm struggling. I started thinking of doing a dark mechanicus army, as I liked the big machines and daemon engines. I still do. But I realised that lords and sorcerers made into robots (like servitors or warpsmiths), while looking pretty cool, would lack... character. And I want to be able to have my units have character in their leaders on the tabletop.
Also the whole army as robots would be boring to paint. Variety is better.
So while I'm still going to have a lot of the big robots and monsters, I want to think of a new theme. Especially important as I finish my current paint job, as a couple of the units I want to field I dislike the official models for (exalted flamer, for instance) and so I need to decide on a theme, so I can source some appropriate alternatives / conversions...
Aaannyyyyywaaaay - This leads to a couple questions.
1) Advice on themes. Something that can incorporate a cleaner aesthetic as I'm not a huge fan of the really "dirty" chaos looks (so more alpha legion, than death guard, I guess). Considering thousand sons, for a variety of magic use to back up the walkers, but not sure yet. Which leads to my original old question -
2) Rubrics. Any good? Seems you need them in pretty big squads of 10 in order to upgrade to a heavy weapon, instead of the usual MSU of 5. Also seems more expensive than noise marines, is the only advantage the included sorcerer?
And actually while I'm at it, I'll also add in -
3) Scarab terminators. Any good, in comparison to the regular terminators?
If the thousand sons units are just inferior to the regular alternatives (noise marines being counted as "regular anyway), then I may just skip TS and look into a variety of psychic sources... or just think of a different theme altogether.
Rubrics and Scarab Occults are excellent anti-infantry shooting - as of the codex you can take the soulreaper cannon in squads of five Rubrics, by the way. I don't think Rubrics are better than Noise Marines, though I'd certainly give the edge to Scarab Occults over CSM Terminators.
Well, this is more a tactics than a hobby thread, but have you considered your sorcerers could be technomancers? There was a whole magic discipline for it before, and most of the spells can be reimagined as such.
Daemon engines suggests Epidemius to me, especially if you're going to include the ubiquitous Obliterators and some of those Death Guard machines.
Niiru wrote: I think I asked this a while ago, but it was among a few other questions that there was a discussion about, and I think I forgot about it at the time haha...
But yeh, I'm in the middle of trying to decide on a theme for my upcoming Chaos army, and I'm struggling. I started thinking of doing a dark mechanicus army, as I liked the big machines and daemon engines. I still do. But I realised that lords and sorcerers made into robots (like servitors or warpsmiths), while looking pretty cool, would lack... character. And I want to be able to have my units have character in their leaders on the tabletop.
Also the whole army as robots would be boring to paint. Variety is better.
So while I'm still going to have a lot of the big robots and monsters, I want to think of a new theme. Especially important as I finish my current paint job, as a couple of the units I want to field I dislike the official models for (exalted flamer, for instance) and so I need to decide on a theme, so I can source some appropriate alternatives / conversions...
Aaannyyyyywaaaay - This leads to a couple questions.
1) Advice on themes. Something that can incorporate a cleaner aesthetic as I'm not a huge fan of the really "dirty" chaos looks (so more alpha legion, than death guard, I guess). Considering thousand sons, for a variety of magic use to back up the walkers, but not sure yet. Which leads to my original old question -
2) Rubrics. Any good? Seems you need them in pretty big squads of 10 in order to upgrade to a heavy weapon, instead of the usual MSU of 5. Also seems more expensive than noise marines, is the only advantage the included sorcerer?
And actually while I'm at it, I'll also add in -
3) Scarab terminators. Any good, in comparison to the regular terminators?
If the thousand sons units are just inferior to the regular alternatives (noise marines being counted as "regular anyway), then I may just skip TS and look into a variety of psychic sources... or just think of a different theme altogether.
Thinking is hard.
I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the TS rules: most of their stuff is too slow (scarabs and rubrics) or is too expensive (Exalted Sorcerers), Magnus is the only TS unit that I'm a fan of. But if you want to do lots of Psychic stuff, I don't think TS is really necessary since their aspiring sorcerers only know smite (and a toned down version at that) so just any old sorcerer would do for throwing about psychic buffs.
For your theme, I'm personally a big fan of the Night Lords (being a Night Lords player): they perhaps aren't as competitive as Alpha Legion but boy do they look good in their moonlit blue armour, scattered with the crack of lightning, they're also quite a clean looking army since the NL never fell to chaos and look down upon all of those who have (won't stop them using chaos to enact their schemes though).
If we could give Terminators twin plasma guns at -1AP with no overcharging, we'd jump at the chance. That's what VOTLW will do for Scarab Occult against MEQs if it - fairly certainly - is in Codex: Thousand Sons.
lindsay40k wrote: Well, this is more a tactics than a hobby thread, but have you considered your sorcerers could be technomancers? There was a whole magic discipline for it before, and most of the spells can be reimagined as such.
Daemon engines suggests Epidemius to me, especially if you're going to include the ubiquitous Obliterators and some of those Death Guard machines.
But is Nurgle a very clean army?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: If we could give Terminators twin plasma guns at -1AP with no overcharging, we'd jump at the chance. That's what VOTLW will do for Scarab Occult against MEQs if it - fairly certainly - is in Codex: Thousand Sons.
lindsay40k wrote: Well, this is more a tactics than a hobby thread, but have you considered your sorcerers could be technomancers? There was a whole magic discipline for it before, and most of the spells can be reimagined as such.
Daemon engines suggests Epidemius to me, especially if you're going to include the ubiquitous Obliterators and some of those Death Guard machines.
But is Nurgle a very clean army?
Kind of my issue... I like nurgle as a concept, but the look of decay and everything being green and dark brown would be a bit dull for me to paint. My maulerfiend project I'm working on right now is dark red flesh, with white armour plates with copper/bronze trim. My next job is to weather it and dirty it up a bit, but not to typical nurgle standards haha. Though I'm actually considering changing the plain white armour, to more of a bone colour. More fitting, and I think/hope will actually look pretty cool.
So bone plated armour, could be a start to a theme?
Also to the person who mentioned technomancers, this is true and I did have a couple saved links to models that looks pretty admech-y, but that could have been used as sorcerer models. But as they all look like robots, they had no... character? soul? Not sure that makes sense to anyone but me haha. Would be hard to name them and give them backstory.
And also yeh I know this is more fluff/hobby related than tactics, its why I tried to frame it around the units I'd be likely to try and use. If I get some ideas I may take this to a new thread on the general forum, but I appreciate any help i get!
Well, a big part of Nurgle is about the infected serving Nurgle to save themselves. Could be that this mechanical host remain only carriers with no visible symptoms as long as they spread grandfather's blessings to more hosts?
I give all my sorcerers spectral Familiars as this was an important thing as a wysiwygAAC collector in previous editions. This leads me to envisage a still fully organic technomancer directing his little dark cherubs, mecha-golems, and chaotic servo-skulls? Maybe even carried on a Palanquin borne by his creations? I recall a scene in E For Evolution where a fevered Professor X dismantles his wheelchair and it's pieces form shapes from his subconscious.
lindsay40k wrote: Well, a big part of Nurgle is about the infected serving Nurgle to save themselves. Could be that this mechanical host remain only carriers with no visible symptoms as long as they spread grandfather's blessings to more hosts?
I give all my sorcerers spectral Familiars as this was an important thing as a wysiwygAAC collector in previous editions. This leads me to envisage a still fully organic technomancer directing his little dark cherubs, mecha-golems, and chaotic servo-skulls? Maybe even carried on a Palanquin borne by his creations? I recall a scene in E For Evolution where a fevered Professor X dismantles his wheelchair and it's pieces form shapes from his subconscious.
That is certainly an interesting thought... Not sure about the palanquin though, as the rules don't seem worth it from my brief glance at the rules. I usually end up picking jetpack or terminator armour, for the deepstrike. None of the chaos mounts seem worthwhile, except maybe the disc of tzeentch to go with a changeling aura.
Edit: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
Any thoughts on whether the Word Bearers stratagem would work for an Arch-Daemonic Ritual for summoning one of the big four? While I'd very much like it to I'm leaning towards it probably not. In standard English an "arch-daemonic ritual" is a subset of "daemonic rituals" but I don't think it applies that way here.
The reason I'm asking is that I am wondering whether it's worth trying to summon Zarakynel on turn 2 with units that come out of a Dreadclaw turn 1. If the stratagem doesn't work then it's probably better to summon a shed load of Bloodletters instead.
saint_red wrote: Any thoughts on whether the Word Bearers stratagem would work for an Arch-Daemonic Ritual for summoning one of the big four? While I'd very much like it to I'm leaning towards it probably not. In standard English an "arch-daemonic ritual" is a subset of "daemonic rituals" but I don't think it applies that way here.
The reason I'm asking is that I am wondering whether it's worth trying to summon Zarakynel on turn 2 with units that come out of a Dreadclaw turn 1. If the stratagem doesn't work then it's probably better to summon a shed load of Bloodletters instead.
Unfortunatly I think the answer is no. While it is still a "daemonic ritual", it does specifically say that you have to use a new rule, which is called "Arch-daemonic Ritual". And the strategem says "using a Daemonic Ritual". I assume this is referencing the specific rule, rather that just saying "any type of ritual that summons daemons". You might be able to make the case in friendly games, but I dunno what tournament judges would say. I suspect they'd just say no though.
Niiru wrote: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
Pg 96: Inexorable Advance (move & shoot better) only works on INFANTRY & Helbrutes (same lower case questions as C:CSM) in DEATH GUARD detachments. Plague Host (ObSec) only works on Troops in DEATH GUARD detachments. So yeah, all three of the new Daemon Engine units lose nothing from being in CHAOS soup detachments, but Plague Marines and Plasma Cataphractii certainly want purity and probably so too do Poxwalkers and Cultists.
I guess the main thing that will make soup less attractive is when Daemons get their deity/host/etc traits. Be interesting to see how that fits in with DAEMON HERETIC ASTARTES units.
Still shocked there's no Havocs equivalent or straight up new general set, Raptors and Bikers might have been a big 'it doesn't say you can't' divergence from traditional DG builds but I know there's a lot of people who destroyed heavy bolters or bought from Forgeworld to field those amazing Autocannon Squads that 7ed loved as much as HH does. And no Warpsmith. Who's making these new Daemon Engines?
Niiru wrote: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
Pg 96: Inexorable Advance (move & shoot better) only works on INFANTRY & Helbrutes (same lower case questions as C:CSM) in DEATH GUARD detachments. Plague Host (ObSec) only works on Troops in DEATH GUARD detachments. So yeah, all three of the new Daemon Engine units lose nothing from being in CHAOS soup detachments, but Plague Marines and Plasma Cataphractii certainly want purity and probably so too do Poxwalkers and Cultists.
I guess the main thing that will make soup less attractive is when Daemons get their deity/host/etc traits. Be interesting to see how that fits in with DAEMON HERETIC ASTARTES units.
Still shocked there's no Havocs equivalent or straight up new general set, Raptors and Bikers might have been a big 'it doesn't say you can't' divergence from traditional DG builds but I know there's a lot of people who destroyed heavy bolters or bought from Forgeworld to field those amazing 7ed Autocannon Squads.
It just says that the detachment needs to be battleforged. It does say it has to be a DEATH GUARD detachment... but it doesn't specify that all units in the detachment must have the legion keyword <DEATH GUARD>.
This is different to the CSM codex, which specifies "so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion".
So as long as a detachment has death guard units in it, you can call it a death guard detachment. Doesn't seem to matter if it also has other units in it. Though only Death Guard units in the detachment would get a trait.
Someone was asking about a chaos full termie army in the general forum and I thought it was an interesting concept for an army.
Black Legion Batallion detachment.
1 Abaddon.
1 sorceror termi lord
1 squad of slanaash 10 termis with combi plasma. (icon of excess)
1 squads of 8 slanaash termis with combi plasma. (icons of excess)
1 squads of 10 Khorne terminators with combi bolters (icon of wrath)
5 cultist squads of 10 each
For the black legion detachment, take slanaash terminators, take at least one big squad of ten with combi plasma. Take a Slanaash terminator sorceror as well. This is the shooty part. Deep strike them within 9.1 inches along with the sorceror and Abbadon, then doubletap with overcharged combi plasmas. So, you get rerolls to hit on 20 shots at str 8, 2 damage. Then use that slanaash strategem to make a unit shoot again and repeat for another 20 shots. That's 40 shots of over charged plasma.
Your slanaash sorceror has warp time and either prescience or delightful agonies. Given how dangerous that unit is, it might get focus fired. So cast delightful agonies which gives it 5+ FNP for more resilience.
So, this build pumps out 40+16 = 56 plasma shots at double tap range. and 40 bolter shots for chaff clearing. You can tweak the number of plasma terminators in the second slanaash terminator squad by reducing the number of combi plasmas for more combi bolter terminators if you wish. And what if the enemy bubble wraps so that you don't even have a decent target to double tap your plasma within 12 inches upon deep strike? Then that's what warp time is for. Then don't use warp time on your khorne termis. Cast it on that big 10 man slanaash squad so that they move another 6 inches. Now they are further forward 6 inches. If there is still nothing decent to double tap your plasma within 12 inches after deep striking within 9.1 inches and moving forward another 6 inches, then your enemy is a master at bubblewrapping or just simply, run full hoard with characters and nothing else. In which case, just it doesn't matter, just full shoot everything at the chaff anyway. lol.
Khorne terminators are there to clear chaff with combi bolters and the charge into melee (icon of wrath). Abaddon's warlord trait makes them deadly too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't want that many big squads of Terminators. Definitely split the Khorne one in half and get points for another Icon for them.
I could do that, but that means I need yet another squad of cultists as tax... lol
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't want that many big squads of Terminators. Definitely split the Khorne one in half and get points for another Icon for them.
I could do that, but that means I need yet another squad of cultists as tax... lol
Honestly since you're going with Abigail, he's gonna give you enough CP that you don't NEED the cultist tax a whole lot. Have you considered maybe just a couple of Vangaurd detachment with Cultists to round it off or something else?
My original army list was vanguard. But the issue is if you want to deep strike, you still need half your units on the table. So, if I want to deep strike 6 units, then I need 6 cultist units on the table.
Eldenfirefly wrote: My original army list was vanguard. But the issue is if you want to deep strike, you still need half your units on the table. So, if I want to deep strike 6 units, then I need 6 cultist units on the table.
If you actually want to do that list, add the 6th squad of cultists and 3 more malefic lords. 130 points will net you 4 additional CP
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't want that many big squads of Terminators. Definitely split the Khorne one in half and get points for another Icon for them.
I could do that, but that means I need yet another squad of cultists as tax... lol
Honestly since you're going with Abigail, he's gonna give you enough CP that you don't NEED the cultist tax a whole lot. Have you considered maybe just a couple of Vangaurd detachment with Cultists to round it off or something else?
I actually assumed the "tax" he was paying was for deep strike anchors... I dunno abbadons rules offhand but the 3 termi squads plus termi sorcerer would need 4 non-deepstrike units. Guess Abby can deepstrike too. So that's 5 cultist squads.
You could save some points by using brimstone squads instead I think. Just put them in a different detachment. Dunno how you'd organise it but it might work. Or nurglings, and they'd also fit your teleport theme (but I think are still anchors cos they do "start" on the table).
saint_red wrote: Any thoughts on whether the Word Bearers stratagem would work for an Arch-Daemonic Ritual for summoning one of the big four? While I'd very much like it to I'm leaning towards it probably not. In standard English an "arch-daemonic ritual" is a subset of "daemonic rituals" but I don't think it applies that way here.
The reason I'm asking is that I am wondering whether it's worth trying to summon Zarakynel on turn 2 with units that come out of a Dreadclaw turn 1. If the stratagem doesn't work then it's probably better to summon a shed load of Bloodletters instead.
Unfortunatly I think the answer is no. While it is still a "daemonic ritual", it does specifically say that you have to use a new rule, which is called "Arch-daemonic Ritual". And the strategem says "using a Daemonic Ritual". I assume this is referencing the specific rule, rather that just saying "any type of ritual that summons daemons". You might be able to make the case in friendly games, but I dunno what tournament judges would say. I suspect they'd just say no though.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. So that sucks but I realised it's possible to put R&H units into the Dreadclaw, so instead of sacrificing a marine sorceror you can sacrifice a 30 point Malefic Lord. It also means there's even less use in going Word Bearers.
Niiru wrote: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
Pg 96: Inexorable Advance (move & shoot better) only works on INFANTRY & Helbrutes (same lower case questions as C:CSM) in DEATH GUARD detachments. Plague Host (ObSec) only works on Troops in DEATH GUARD detachments. So yeah, all three of the new Daemon Engine units lose nothing from being in CHAOS soup detachments, but Plague Marines and Plasma Cataphractii certainly want purity and probably so too do Poxwalkers and Cultists.
I guess the main thing that will make soup less attractive is when Daemons get their deity/host/etc traits. Be interesting to see how that fits in with DAEMON HERETIC ASTARTES units.
Still shocked there's no Havocs equivalent or straight up new general set, Raptors and Bikers might have been a big 'it doesn't say you can't' divergence from traditional DG builds but I know there's a lot of people who destroyed heavy bolters or bought from Forgeworld to field those amazing 7ed Autocannon Squads.
It just says that the detachment needs to be battleforged. It does say it has to be a DEATH GUARD detachment... but it doesn't specify that all units in the detachment must have the legion keyword <DEATH GUARD>.
This is different to the CSM codex, which specifies "so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion".
So as long as a detachment has death guard units in it, you can call it a death guard detachment. Doesn't seem to matter if it also has other units in it. Though only Death Guard units in the detachment would get a trait.
BRB, pg 240: 'A unit's Faction is important when building a Battle-forged army because some Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same Faction'
Whilst there is no explicit definition presented of what constitutes a DEATH GUARD detachment, I am overwhelmingly inclined to the common sense interpretation that a Supreme Command consisting of a Malefic Lord, Abaddon, Lord of Change, Blightlord Terminators, and a Renegade Knight would not qualify. I would not base my purchasing choices on hoping that any other interpretation would survive the first FAQ, or be accepted by TOs or the majority of players.
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saint_red wrote: It's <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos> which I believe R&H have access to right?
Malefic Lord Faction Keywords: CHAOS, RENEGADE & HERETICS
Alright, Nerds. This is what I'm working with for now. Feels really solid, has a good punch behind it. Any opinions? My goal is to, in the next few months, phase out Magnus and replace him with Noise Marines.
saint_red wrote: It's <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos> which I believe R&H have access to right?
Malefic Lord Faction Keywords: CHAOS, RENEGADE & HERETICS
Ah damn, that means the Daemonic Lord summoning idea is out the window. Not really sure the best way to get leverage out of the Word Bearers stratagem other than a turn 2 bloodletter bomb.
Yeah, really should have been a Legion trait instead of a stratagem. Wouldn't make it more useful, but IMO the bearers of the word are in a pretty mediocre place, so in the situations when summoning is utilized they'd at least have something worthwhile.
I think we'll gain more utility when the Daemon codex comes out. At the present time it's not really worth summoning stuff because we've got units that will fill similar roles. If Dark Pact worked on Arch-Daemonic Rituals then having a really solid chance to summon a Daemon Lord on turn 2 could be really fun.
Whilst there is no explicit definition presented of what constitutes a DEATH GUARD detachment
There is actually
P96 of codex. A Death Guard Detachment is a detachment which includes only DEATH GUARD units.
Ah, there we go. Always read the introductory paragraph!
Ahh I'm not home to check but I only read the rule on the traits page, which I assume is a different page haha. My bad.
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lindsay40k wrote: Well, this is more a tactics than a hobby thread, but have you considered your sorcerers could be technomancers? There was a whole magic discipline for it before, and most of the spells can be reimagined as such.
Daemon engines suggests Epidemius to me, especially if you're going to include the ubiquitous Obliterators and some of those Death Guard machines.
Spoiler:
What Lindsay said about Technomancers stuck with me last night while I was mulling through army ideas, and one of the alternative models I found for a unit made me realise the (probably obvious) link between technomancy and necromancy. Merging my old dark mechanicus idea, with a group of sorcerers who raise and build an army of walkers and beasts to fight for them. Lets me have some nice character units, while also having tech walkers with bone armour and black robes. Throw in some skeletons and I'm good to go!
Units I'd use (which is pretty much all the ones I like) would be :
Daemon Prince
Sorcerers
Obliterators
Warp Talons
Maulerfiends
Giant Chaos Spawn
I realised by this point that most of these units count as daemons, except for the contemptor/leviathan... Which might mean it would be possible to have a mix of CSM sorcerer and Chaos Daemons psyker (either character or herald) for a wider pool of spells to cast (thought this is only good if there are actually decent spells to try and cast...) So it opens up adding a few damon units too, though I'd probably have to convert those to fit the theme...
Which leads to the tactics questions:
1) Would an army built around these units actually be feasible? I know obliterators are strong right now, but I assume they'd need backing up by other units. What am I missing that would fill the gaps?
2) Which chaos god would be the better fit? Nurgle has the option to heal wounds to nurgle daemon units, which would seem to work on the maulerfiend and the giant spawn, which seems pretty handy. Don't know how well the rest of the nurgle discipline stacks up against the others though. I'd expect nurgle to have the weakest psykers. Actually I realise the nurgle psykers have no mounts at all, so the fastest is only 6". Would need to be summoned, which isn't ideal. Tzeentch powers seem good, but high cast cost so unreliable? And slaneesh... not sure. Symphony seems like it might be interesting to stack with alpha legion and changeling (even though that's tzeentch, it seems like all 3 would stack?).
Maybe this is a bad idea to mix these things, but it would be fun to model a mix of bones and technology. Colour scheme should look pretty good too (hopefully).
I realise this may be a bit much for this thread, so I may end up reposting this in it's own thread in the general forum.
I've posted this question in the general forum now, as it seemed a better place for it, but I'll leave it spoilered here in case someone wanted to reply in here for some reason. Appreciate any help in that other thread though Thanks
How are Obliterators in 8th edition? I was thinking about using them as Alpha Legion as a backup firing line to a combi-plasma Terminator squad with Sorcerer support while a Rhino full of Berzerkers and a Daemon Prince advance up the board with a Heldrake providing key target harassment while Noise Marines go around taking objectives, does that sound viable?
For the points, jet pack seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me, though I'm not sure about whether terminator armour is a worthwhile alternative. I know some people also like the daemon mounts, but I'm concerned that they're being phased out of the game by GW so dunno if I want to invest unless its really worthwhile for my list.
Which weapons though? Do you stay default with force sword + bolt pistol, or are there some worthy upgrades to pick up? I did consider combi-plasma, but it would only be the one guy shooting.
I'm considering deep striking a sorcerer in with a squad of warp talons. Warptime and maybe Prescience or Miasma of Pestilence, depending on if they're better of killier or tougher.
Niiru wrote: How are people equipping their Sorcerers?
For the points, jet pack seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me, though I'm not sure about whether terminator armour is a worthwhile alternative. I know some people also like the daemon mounts, but I'm concerned that they're being phased out of the game by GW so dunno if I want to invest unless its really worthwhile for my list.
Which weapons though? Do you stay default with force sword + bolt pistol, or are there some worthy upgrades to pick up? I did consider combi-plasma, but it would only be the one guy shooting.
I'm considering deep striking a sorcerer in with a squad of warp talons. Warptime and maybe Prescience or Miasma of Pestilence, depending on if they're better of killier or tougher.
I'm mainly running a Slaanesh Steed guy. He gets Herald buffs, I want the option of DA if Warptime isn't needed, he can Advance and pop a shot with his Combi-Flamer then charge. Gave him Force Axe as we usually end up having a cavalry battle between T5 Thunderwolves and Slaaneshi critters. Won me my last game by being able to zoom up to Harald Deathwolf and Smite him to contribute to Kingslayer.
In small games, I've had good results with a bare bones Sorcerer. He enabled a horde to run right up to the enemy and force them to drop their Terminators in to deal with them. After that, they had to walk across the board towards my Havocs.
Jump Pack seems the way to go for a Warp Talon strike. You ideally want to be able to drop outside of DTW coverage.
My friends want to try some Open and Narrative games. Definitely going to be dropping in a Terminator Sorcerer; he lands in a Ruin where he can Warptime some Terminators or whatever, and in subsequent turns he's a source of Summoning with loads of wounds and a solid save. Suddenly, WB become amazing!
I've mothballed my Palanquin Sorcerer, he was an excellent Summoner in 7ed but now that he can't move and bring the Warp... I'm not finding him worth it at all tbh. Maybe dig him out in an Epidemius list where he can Smite and Gaze some kills, but that's hella marginal and if that's his game then he wants to be DG, not WB - or better yet, drop him and just take more Obliterators.
Actually, RAW, a Palanquin Sorcerer is pure DG's only source of Warptime & (maybe) Death Hex. That's a niche I hadn't considered. Probably end up getting FAQ'd to Contagion, though - if you already have one then whip that piñata, but don't bother sinking time & money into a hobby project just to exploit this loophole.
Niiru wrote: How are people equipping their Sorcerers?
For the points, jet pack seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me, though I'm not sure about whether terminator armour is a worthwhile alternative. I know some people also like the daemon mounts, but I'm concerned that they're being phased out of the game by GW so dunno if I want to invest unless its really worthwhile for my list.
Which weapons though? Do you stay default with force sword + bolt pistol, or are there some worthy upgrades to pick up? I did consider combi-plasma, but it would only be the one guy shooting.
I'm considering deep striking a sorcerer in with a squad of warp talons. Warptime and maybe Prescience or Miasma of Pestilence, depending on if they're better of killier or tougher.
I'm mainly running a Slaanesh Steed guy. He gets Herald buffs, I want the option of DA if Warptime isn't needed, he can Advance and pop a shot with his Combi-Flamer then charge. Gave him Force Axe as we usually end up having a cavalry battle between T5 Thunderwolves and Slaaneshi critters. Won me my last game by being able to zoom up to Harald Deathwolf and Smite him to contribute to Kingslayer.
In small games, I've had good results with a bare bones Sorcerer. He enabled a horde to run right up to the enemy and force them to drop their Terminators in to deal with them. After that, they had to walk across the board towards my Havocs.
Jump Pack seems the way to go for a Warp Talon strike. You ideally want to be able to drop outside of DTW coverage.
My friends want to try some Open and Narrative games. Definitely going to be dropping in a Terminator Sorcerer; he lands in a Ruin where he can Warptime some Terminators or whatever, and in subsequent turns he's a source of Summoning with loads of wounds and a solid save. Suddenly, WB become amazing!
I've mothballed my Palanquin Sorcerer, he was an excellent Summoner in 7ed but now that he can't move and bring the Warp... I'm not finding him worth it at all tbh. Maybe dig him out in an Epidemius list where he can Smite and Gaze some kills, but that's hella marginal and if that's his game then he wants to be DG, not WB - or better yet, drop him and just take more Obliterators.
Actually, RAW, a Palanquin Sorcerer is pure DG's only source of Warptime & (maybe) Death Hex. That's a niche I hadn't considered. Probably end up getting FAQ'd to Contagion, though - if you already have one then whip that piñata, but don't bother sinking time & money into a hobby project just to exploit this loophole.
I really appreciate the tips I see you liked delightful agonies and the seeker steed, do you run a lot of slaanesh units? I'm still looking at which chaos god to focus on - I like seekers and chariots, but also plague drones and epidemius seem useful. Which units do you find worthwhile to accompany CSM?
I do like the idea of a steed sorcerer accompanying my footslogging units, but I would probably run a daemon prince in that role as he has no access to deepstriking. I would probably instead pick a herald on steed, in order to get access to a seperate psychic tree (which means more spells in matched play!). In open or narrative though, I can see where multiple warptimes would be handy!
Niiru wrote: How are people equipping their Sorcerers?
For the points, jet pack seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me, though I'm not sure about whether terminator armour is a worthwhile alternative. I know some people also like the daemon mounts, but I'm concerned that they're being phased out of the game by GW so dunno if I want to invest unless its really worthwhile for my list.
Which weapons though? Do you stay default with force sword + bolt pistol, or are there some worthy upgrades to pick up? I did consider combi-plasma, but it would only be the one guy shooting.
I'm considering deep striking a sorcerer in with a squad of warp talons. Warptime and maybe Prescience or Miasma of Pestilence, depending on if they're better of killier or tougher.
I'm mainly running a Slaanesh Steed guy. He gets Herald buffs, I want the option of DA if Warptime isn't needed, he can Advance and pop a shot with his Combi-Flamer then charge. Gave him Force Axe as we usually end up having a cavalry battle between T5 Thunderwolves and Slaaneshi critters. Won me my last game by being able to zoom up to Harald Deathwolf and Smite him to contribute to Kingslayer.
In small games, I've had good results with a bare bones Sorcerer. He enabled a horde to run right up to the enemy and force them to drop their Terminators in to deal with them. After that, they had to walk across the board towards my Havocs.
Jump Pack seems the way to go for a Warp Talon strike. You ideally want to be able to drop outside of DTW coverage.
My friends want to try some Open and Narrative games. Definitely going to be dropping in a Terminator Sorcerer; he lands in a Ruin where he can Warptime some Terminators or whatever, and in subsequent turns he's a source of Summoning with loads of wounds and a solid save. Suddenly, WB become amazing!
I've mothballed my Palanquin Sorcerer, he was an excellent Summoner in 7ed but now that he can't move and bring the Warp... I'm not finding him worth it at all tbh. Maybe dig him out in an Epidemius list where he can Smite and Gaze some kills, but that's hella marginal and if that's his game then he wants to be DG, not WB - or better yet, drop him and just take more Obliterators.
Actually, RAW, a Palanquin Sorcerer is pure DG's only source of Warptime & (maybe) Death Hex. That's a niche I hadn't considered. Probably end up getting FAQ'd to Contagion, though - if you already have one then whip that piñata, but don't bother sinking time & money into a hobby project just to exploit this loophole.
I really appreciate the tips I see you liked delightful agonies and the seeker steed, do you run a lot of slaanesh units? I'm still looking at which chaos god to focus on - I like seekers and chariots, but also plague drones and epidemius seem useful. Which units do you find worthwhile to accompany CSM?
I do like the idea of a steed sorcerer accompanying my footslogging units, but I would probably run a daemon prince in that role as he has no access to deepstriking. I would probably instead pick a herald on steed, in order to get access to a seperate psychic tree (which means more spells in matched play!). In open or narrative though, I can see where multiple warptimes would be handy!
My main Slaaneshi HA unit is plasma Chosen, I've got Possessed on my hobby list but they're a ways off yet. DA will be a high priority for them - FNP is made for 2W units, almost doubling their endurance against the likes of autocannons. Outside of Matched Play, they'll definitely be jumping out of a Dreadclaw and protecting a deep insertion Summoner - DA on the Possessed, Gaze on some annoying support character, and get popping out KoS & Fiends.
Currently, Steed Sorcerer mostly gets Death Hex and Prescience, there's a lot of 3++ in my games. But the squadron he goes forth with is a Steed Herald, Seekers, and Fiends - highly mobile and able to deal with a range of dangerous units.
Other daemon must-haves are a Herald of Nurgle to keep Oblits (mine are undeniably Nurgle) and DP in the fight, Plaguebearers & Nurglings to hold objectives & disrupt deployment, and Flesh Hounds to fill out an Outriders detachment with the Dreadclaw. Nothing wrong with fifteen S5 AP-1 attacks.
Buff spell DP projecting re-rolls from his large base is a fine multiplier for an infantry contingent. He's going to tank most snipers, including a Vindicare, and as a melee counter he can't be lascannoned away like a Helbrute. Caesar rode a horse and wore a red sagum for a reason - mobile, visible leadership is a great asset to a battle line.
Niiru wrote: How are people equipping their Sorcerers?
For the points, jet pack seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me, though I'm not sure about whether terminator armour is a worthwhile alternative. I know some people also like the daemon mounts, but I'm concerned that they're being phased out of the game by GW so dunno if I want to invest unless its really worthwhile for my list.
Which weapons though? Do you stay default with force sword + bolt pistol, or are there some worthy upgrades to pick up? I did consider combi-plasma, but it would only be the one guy shooting.
I'm considering deep striking a sorcerer in with a squad of warp talons. Warptime and maybe Prescience or Miasma of Pestilence, depending on if they're better of killier or tougher.
I'm mainly running a Slaanesh Steed guy. He gets Herald buffs, I want the option of DA if Warptime isn't needed, he can Advance and pop a shot with his Combi-Flamer then charge. Gave him Force Axe as we usually end up having a cavalry battle between T5 Thunderwolves and Slaaneshi critters. Won me my last game by being able to zoom up to Harald Deathwolf and Smite him to contribute to Kingslayer.
In small games, I've had good results with a bare bones Sorcerer. He enabled a horde to run right up to the enemy and force them to drop their Terminators in to deal with them. After that, they had to walk across the board towards my Havocs.
Jump Pack seems the way to go for a Warp Talon strike. You ideally want to be able to drop outside of DTW coverage.
My friends want to try some Open and Narrative games. Definitely going to be dropping in a Terminator Sorcerer; he lands in a Ruin where he can Warptime some Terminators or whatever, and in subsequent turns he's a source of Summoning with loads of wounds and a solid save. Suddenly, WB become amazing!
I've mothballed my Palanquin Sorcerer, he was an excellent Summoner in 7ed but now that he can't move and bring the Warp... I'm not finding him worth it at all tbh. Maybe dig him out in an Epidemius list where he can Smite and Gaze some kills, but that's hella marginal and if that's his game then he wants to be DG, not WB - or better yet, drop him and just take more Obliterators.
Actually, RAW, a Palanquin Sorcerer is pure DG's only source of Warptime & (maybe) Death Hex. That's a niche I hadn't considered. Probably end up getting FAQ'd to Contagion, though - if you already have one then whip that piñata, but don't bother sinking time & money into a hobby project just to exploit this loophole.
I really appreciate the tips I see you liked delightful agonies and the seeker steed, do you run a lot of slaanesh units? I'm still looking at which chaos god to focus on - I like seekers and chariots, but also plague drones and epidemius seem useful. Which units do you find worthwhile to accompany CSM?
I do like the idea of a steed sorcerer accompanying my footslogging units, but I would probably run a daemon prince in that role as he has no access to deepstriking. I would probably instead pick a herald on steed, in order to get access to a seperate psychic tree (which means more spells in matched play!). In open or narrative though, I can see where multiple warptimes would be handy!
My main Slaaneshi HA unit is plasma Chosen, I've got Possessed on my hobby list but they're a ways off yet. DA will be a high priority for them - FNP is made for 2W units, almost doubling their endurance against the likes of autocannons. Outside of Matched Play, they'll definitely be jumping out of a Dreadclaw and protecting a deep insertion Summoner - DA on the Possessed, Gaze on some annoying support character, and get popping out KoS & Fiends.
Currently, Steed Sorcerer mostly gets Death Hex and Prescience, there's a lot of 3++ in my games. But the squadron he goes forth with is a Steed Herald, Seekers, and Fiends - highly mobile and able to deal with a range of dangerous units.
Other daemon must-haves are a Herald of Nurgle to keep Oblits (mine are undeniably Nurgle) and DP in the fight, Plaguebearers & Nurglings to hold objectives & disrupt deployment, and Flesh Hounds to fill out an Outriders detachment with the Dreadclaw. Nothing wrong with fifteen S5 AP-1 attacks.
Buff spell DP projecting re-rolls from his large base is a fine multiplier for an infantry contingent. He's going to tank most snipers, including a Vindicare, and as a melee counter he can't be lascannoned away like a Helbrute. Caesar rode a horse and wore a red sagum for a reason - mobile, visible leadership is a great asset to a battle line.
How are you getting a herald of nurgle anywhere near your oblits? I figure oblits are always deepstriking in to position, and the herald is a slow 5" mover. The slowness of nurgle units is the only reason I hesitate to field them (except for drones, which are speedy and nasty it seems).
Also, on a seperate topic, Blue Scribes ... does noone play them? They seem to get around the big expensive downside of Tzeentch psychic powers, by making them pass the psychic tests automatically. True, you do a random power, but all three of their powers seem to have a use. I also don't see any reason why they can't cast a spell that has already been cast by another tzeentch sorcerer, as they don't actually cast the power it's just randomly manifested... Might be a YMDC topic though.
@Niiru - I find I often use my Obliterators to help intercept an enemy attack. If they were Slaaneshi, I'd absolutely use them more aggressively - being Nurgle, I'll look for places they can land where I can support them, making the best of the army I have. But no trouble if I can't find such a dropzone - Herald can usually Smite something if the DP doesn't need healing.
I've been trying Karanak and a Jugger Herald as other HQ options... they're not bad. Very nice to follow a Rhino full of Possessed with the Flesh Hounds in tow.
@snottlebocket - not from the Codex, but they haven't YET closed the loophole of taking a Sorcerer from the Index. Expect it to raise eyebrows, cause arguments, and be shut down by some TOs.
So, for all of you who may still have doubts of the potential of Alpha Legion Tzeench Obliterators let me tell you what happened to me today on my Local GW store:
I deployed my Obliterators on top of a black tower in the center of the table, near The Changelling. They are still black primed. Forget the -2 to hit, they were so camuflaged my opponent forgot they were there and he did not shoot them...
...Shame that I didn't remember they were there either. I guess they were just sitting there, on top of the black tower, watching the fight while eating popcorn.
BillyN831 wrote: Can you take two of the same relic or are they unique in nature?
The codex says that you cannot duplicate relics and cannot take more than one on the same character. Which makes sense since these are supposed to be one-of-a-kind artifacts.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. This Stratagem, Beseech The Dark Gods. Is there any point to this whatsoever? Some sort of gimmick where you take an unmarked unit, and then surprise your opponent by marking it and then playing one of the four deity Stratagems? I mean, you burn a whole CP to do it, and you could have done it anyway and had an Icon to boot.
I notice Loyalists get a 'split into Combat Squads after the game begins' Stratagem. These both strike me as being to 'twenty-six Stratagems for you to use!' as a boss that requires a weekend of grinding to take down is to 'seventy hours of gameplay!'…
Well it could be very handy when a Nightlord Terminator unit wants to be, say, Kharnate for a round.
It's there. use it when it makes sense to use it. Having one MORE tool in the toolbag hardly seems a bad thing.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. This Stratagem, Beseech The Dark Gods. Is there any point to this whatsoever? Some sort of gimmick where you take an unmarked unit, and then surprise your opponent by marking it and then playing one of the four deity Stratagems? I mean, you burn a whole CP to do it, and you could have done it anyway and had an Icon to boot.
I notice Loyalists get a 'split into Combat Squads after the game begins' Stratagem. These both strike me as being to 'twenty-six Stratagems for you to use!' as a boss that requires a weekend of grinding to take down is to 'seventy hours of gameplay!'…
Well it could be very handy when a Nightlord Terminator unit wants to be, say, Kharnate for a round.
It's there. use it when it makes sense to use it. Having one MORE tool in the toolbag hardly seems a bad thing.
At least it's better than the Loyalist Combat Squad one because nobody is buying a full unit of anything there.
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. This Stratagem, Beseech The Dark Gods. Is there any point to this whatsoever? Some sort of gimmick where you take an unmarked unit, and then surprise your opponent by marking it and then playing one of the four deity Stratagems? I mean, you burn a whole CP to do it, and you could have done it anyway and had an Icon to boot.
I notice Loyalists get a 'split into Combat Squads after the game begins' Stratagem. These both strike me as being to 'twenty-six Stratagems for you to use!' as a boss that requires a weekend of grinding to take down is to 'seventy hours of gameplay!'…
Well it could be very handy when a Nightlord Terminator unit wants to be, say, Kharnate for a round.
It's there. use it when it makes sense to use it. Having one MORE tool in the toolbag hardly seems a bad thing.
The MoC the Stratagem confers seems to be permanent. Now, there's two options here:
- during list building, give your Terminators MoK and IoW: 10pts/0pow, can always re-roll charges
- take unmarked Terminators and BtDG a MoK for them: 1CP, no built-in charge re-roll so probably end up spending another CP here and there as well
I guess it leaves open the option to give them a MoS for if they find a target that wants shooting up... naw, it's still a gimmick, one with much higher external costs.
I need your help for i'm incredibly inept to build a working list;
What do you think about bikes? MSU, special Weapons or not?
Is Skarbrand worth as a Support-ish unit for CSM-Daemons & Daemon-engines? I really like the model & the +1 Attack aura which would be fun to use in combination with possessed.
And on that note, how do i run Possessed in a Renegate list? Rhino's or Footslogging?
Khornate25 wrote: What do you people feel like an effective build be for a unit of Noise Marines ?
My base noise marine unit is just 4 sonic blasters+blastmaster. Its 111 points that produces a rather nice amount of fire and is good at sitting on objectives for cheap. If I have some points leftover I add another sonic blaster giving me a nice 6 marines aka the magic slaanesh number. Today in a game a dying squad wiped out a strike squad of GKs.
I need your help for i'm incredibly inept to build a working list;
What do you think about bikes? MSU, special Weapons or not?
Is Skarbrand worth as a Support-ish unit for CSM-Daemons & Daemon-engines? I really like the model & the +1 Attack aura which would be fun to use in combination with possessed.
And on that note, how do i run Possessed in a Renegate list? Rhino's or Footslogging?
I have been running a few small units with max special weapons for a cheap fast hit and run unit. Usually live a turn or two before my opponent figure out have dangerous they are and blows them off the board. I think bikes are decent now but are not something I would charge into an enemy.
Possessed need a ride. Also give them a apostle with the ride. Maximize that first charge.
If you are playing Renegades you want your bikes in combat. Give them flamers and advance for a 20 inch move, flame some stuff and then charge into combat to tie up your enemy. They can be a good way of delivering a bike lord semi safely into close combat.
Possessed are probably best in a Rhino but I think it's feasible to have them footslog if you take the Changeling as well. It's probably not worth it unless you have multiple units benefiting from the Changeling aura, though.
I think bikes are better as a shooting platform rather than charging them into combat, unless you can tie up some heavy support units. They aren't much better at fighting than normal CSM yet they are a lot more expensive. Even the champion only has 2 attacks. Putting a power weapon or power fist on a bike champ is very inefficient for so few attacks. And you are essentially paying a lot just for bikes as a delivery system. On the other hand, as a shooty platform, I think they have some merit. They are T5, 3+, so they are harder to kill than a typical marine, and yet they are "relatively" cheap. And they serve as a good distraction.
I would consider taking a squad of 3 with just 1 special weapon like a melta gun. This way, I wouldn't need to worry about morale, and they are still shooty (don't underestimate combi bolters!). And that one melta gun means I can do some melta damage on a target of opportunity like a vehicle or an imperial knight. And the whole unit is under 100 points. So, opponent has to decide, if he wants to shoot at the bike unit, he needs to totally kill it off to get to that one melta gun. But if he doesn't it will continue to be a thorn in its side. And if opponent actually does devote some shooting to it, that's less shooting at my own heavy support.
The only time I might consider charging them into combat, would be if I were using world eaters bikers. Because with the +1 attack, they might be more worth it in CC, charging either weak chaff, or tying up heavy support.
Khornate25 wrote: What use would you have for the contemptor and leviathan dreads ? Which legion, synergy, etc. ?
Alpha legion CT works well for shooty ones, keeps them alive a bit longer. EC is good for melee focused, probably outweighs WE overall.
DG would be good for mixed or shooty versions, except for the fact DG LT does not, by raw, apply to them. No clue why, could be a typo that they didn't bold helbrutes.
Khornate25 wrote: What use would you have for the contemptor and leviathan dreads ? Which legion, synergy, etc. ?
My Word Bearers are putting a Contemptor in a Dreadclaw with a Butcher Cannon and Soulburner Fist. It's loadout is largely determined by it being an interesting hobby project, and the delivery system is because it's the scariest thing I can put in a Dreadclaw that can't just ride in a cheaper Rhino. In practice, it's probably going to be something of a distraction carnifex, taking out a few Long Fangs and adding -2ld to a unit that's already likely to fail a morale check. Or scaring a Knight.
Khornate25 wrote: What use would you have for the contemptor and leviathan dreads ? Which legion, synergy, etc. ?
I often run a Leviathan. I initially run double butcher cannons but the -1AP didn't work out so well. I've had much more success running 2x Gravflux bombards, which are good against everything. It's also cheaper. I play Thousand Sons, so no legion tactics to speak of.
ochobits wrote: So, for all of you who may still have doubts of the potential of Alpha Legion Tzeench Obliterators let me tell you what happened to me today on my Local GW store:
I deployed my Obliterators on top of a black tower in the center of the table, near The Changelling. They are still black primed. Forget the -2 to hit, they were so camuflaged my opponent forgot they were there and he did not shoot them...
...Shame that I didn't remember they were there either. I guess they were just sitting there, on top of the black tower, watching the fight while eating popcorn.
I came in second in a Sigmar tournament instead of first this last week literally because I had a squad of cultists....on a tray behind me. They were supposed to come in on turn 3 due to the mission we were playing (NOVA mission I believe), but on turn 3 during my assault phase, I said "ah crap I should have brought them on". Then on turn 4, during my shooting phase, I said "I can't believe I didn't bring them in". At the end of turn 5, when we were tallying points for objectives, I said, "WHY ARE MY CULTISTS ON MY TRAY STILL". Bringing them in on any of those turns, even the last turn, would have allowed me to score enough points to take 1st in the tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khornate25 wrote: What do you people feel like an effective build be for a unit of Noise Marines ?
I don't pay for the blast master but it's not a bad option. Basically as many as you can cram into a rhino and you're good to go. Veterans of the long war, prescience, shoot twice and profit. Have lord nearby for extra profit.
I've got a survival game coming up - forget the named the mission, but the gist is play five turns against twice as much power as you, win if there's a survivor. I want something that can mess up fenrisian wolves and genestealers when they inevitably get stuck in. I've got Flamers of Tzeentch, Hellforged Predator covered in flame weapons, and Raptors that could have three Flamers. They're all around the same power level, not sure which way to go...
lindsay40k wrote: I've got a survival game coming up - forget the named the mission, but the gist is play five turns against twice as much power as you, win if there's a survivor. I want something that can mess up fenrisian wolves and genestealers when they inevitably get stuck in. I've got Flamers of Tzeentch, Hellforged Predator covered in flame weapons, and Raptors that could have three Flamers. They're all around the same power level, not sure which way to go...
Huh, interesting. Haven't played a game like that.
You say you have "a game" coming up, but I assume you mean multiple games, seeing as your opponent seems to be both tyranid and space wolves haha. How come you're always the defender?
I wouldn't pick raptors on their own, too fragile. Though so are flamers of tzeentch really. And neither of them will help much against wolves or genestealers. If they get an overwatch shot, then they'll do a bunch of wounds, but they'll only get overwatch if the enemy charge from less than 8" away. I don't know my tyranid codex very well, but I'd be surprised if they didnt have a way to get decent charges from that far and avoid all your flamers.
Even if they don't, the 3 flamers in a raptor squad will only, on average, kill 3 genestealers before they attack you.
Same with the tzeentch flamer squad, as the bonus -1AP is irrelevent against genestealers.
So you kill 3 of their genestealers, and then the other 17 of them (I'd assume they're using big units for the attacks bonus) is going to attack you for... 68 attacks? So whatever they attack, is going to die.
The predator might survive a round of melee, but it also costs way more than the raptors or the flamers, even in power levels. So you'll have less stuff in the rest of your army. And the predator would not survive two rounds of combat.
What would I do? If I was playing a defensive army, I wouldn't be spending a lot of points on flamer units and waiting for something as potentially nasty as genestealers to get within 8" of me so I could actually hurt them. I'd load up on long range anti-horde, and try and kill them before they even got anywhere near me.
Guessing by hellforged predator you don't mind forgeworld units, so Rapier battery quad heavy bolters are pretty nasty. Loads of dakka.
I'd even say a standard predator with heavy bolters and a havoc launcher will kill a lot more enemy during a game, as it can kill things every turn instead of just on the turn before it is charged.
Heavy bolter havocs would also probably do more good than the raptors or flamers.
^ my regular opponents are Wolves and Tyranids, we usually have a free for all but we're going to try some 2v1 gauntlets. I'll be attacking a third of the time
I'm not sure why the hate for the Blastmaster, honestly. It's kind of like a weaker Missile Launcher. Paired with the Slaanesh stratagem, Prescience, and/or Veterans of the Long War, they can do some serious work. I'm figuring on running 10 Noise Marines with 8 Sonic Blasters and 2 Blastmasters, possibly with an Icon of Excess for when the unit ends up in close combat (since the Icon is cheap). I'm thinking I'll infiltrate the unit with the Alpha Legion stratagem, getting them into a good position to make some, ahem, Noise!
Here are the opinions on Chaos units, resumed in one word/sentence, what are your thought about it :
HQ :
- Daemon Prince : Must have
- Lord : Good
- Sorcerer : Fuc**ng good
- Dark Apostle : Optionnal (only if lots of cultist)
- Warpsmith ??
Troops :
- Chaos space marine : Meh..
- Cultist : Best CSM troops (exept if you are EC or WE)
- NM & Berzeker : Best trops in 8th edition ?
Elit :
- Terminators : Eventually good with combi weapon and mark of Slaanesh
- Chosen : Overcosted
- Possessed : Eventually if you cant take Berzeker
- Helbrute : Best Elite slot
- Mutilator : Trash tier
Rhino : Must have if you got some infantry without deep strike more valuable than cultist (Possessed, Bezeker, Noise etc...)
Fast attack :
- Bikers ?
- Raptors : Bad ?
- Warp talon : Bad
- Spawn : Best fast attack in chaos ?
Heldrake : Meh ?
Support :
- Land Raider : Good ?
- Predator : Best CSM support unit ?
- Havocs : Second best CSM support unit if you can take Slaanesh mark ?
- Obliterators : Good now they are Assault4 ?
- Vindicator : Bad ?
- Forgefiend ? Maulerfiend ?
- Defiler ?
I think warp talons have some utility if you can master comboing them. But not confident enough in that opinion to buy any and test them.
Idea would be to deep strike em, in, warptime em, and multi charge to lock down as many units as possible without overwatch.
Then try and stack buffs to cause real damage, whilst clearing the way for the rest of your army to get in unapposed.
Dark Apostle is a fine accompaniment to Berzerkers, Exalted Champion is also good in this regard but if you can only afford one then DA is the priority.
Warp Talons are a bit gimmicky but there are situations in which a successful (Warptimed?) charge from DS will be a game changer. They don't need to be a big expensive unit, as their role is to play Jet Set Radio and tag a big nasty to blind its Overwatch to the LoS or whatever who's coming in to chop it up. Or set a Fiends of Slaanesh tarpit. As Overwatch buffs proliferate (the recently revealed IG rules are probably going to be horrific), they'll get better and better.
Not sure if I'd say Land Raider is good... the GW line that everything has Assault Vehicle is nonsense, it has clearly lost a lot of utility by not being able to move and disembark troops in the same turn. Plus it's lost 2" of movement, and in practical terms it's 2+D6" slower than the Rhino because you're going to want to fire its guns on the approach. For the same outlay I could have a Predator and two Rhinos.
Chosen, I'd list as strong but overcosted.
One Forgefiend seems fairly good, using Daemonforge. LasherFiends seem to be doing well.
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: Here are the opinions on Chaos units, resumed in one word/sentence, what are your thought about it :
HQ :
- Daemon Prince : Must have
- Lord : Good
- Sorcerer : Fuc**ng good
- Dark Apostle : Optionnal (only if lots of cultist)
- Warpsmith ??
Troops :
- Chaos space marine : Meh..
- Cultist : Best CSM troops (exept if you are EC or WE)
- NM & Berzeker : Best trops in 8th edition ?
Elit :
- Terminators : Eventually good with combi weapon and mark of Slaanesh
- Chosen : Overcosted
- Possessed : Eventually if you cant take Berzeker
- Helbrute : Best Elite slot
- Mutilator : Trash tier
Rhino : Must have if you got some infantry without deep strike more valuable than cultist (Possessed, Bezeker, Noise etc...)
Fast attack :
- Bikers ?
- Raptors : Bad ?
- Warp talon : Bad
- Spawn : Best fast attack in chaos ?
Heldrake : Meh ?
Support :
- Land Raider : Good ?
- Predator : Best CSM support unit ?
- Havocs : Second best CSM support unit if you can take Slaanesh mark ?
- Obliterators : Good now they are Assault4 ?
- Vindicator : Bad ?
- Forgefiend ? Maulerfiend ?
- Defiler ?
I don't know about helbrutes being top for elites, in my experience so far my AL plasma chosen have been getting sh*t done.
Now that people have had a chance to playtest helbrutes a bit more, what are your favourite loadouts?
Also I would say bikers are "good". Fast mobile shooting platforms, that are also quite resiliant. They make a good escort for DP with wings.
I am finding my bikers to be a nice unit and it surprises me making me actually repair my disarray bike squads.
I used AL infiltrating plasma chosen this last weekend. My dice were super cold this weekend which sucked for the entire game but still even so they did a damn good job hitting the back line where I wanted on the first turn. Also remember if you don't go first you don't have infiltrate them next your opponent put them mid field to grab something in cover.
My vidicator is a waste even at 135 points. It just doesn't hurt anything.
My heldrake actually tends to just be a fire magnet but if it survives a turn or two it does real work.
Havocs are great and cheap. Plasma or long range they are good.
Oblits are fantastic.
Termis are fantastic.
My raptors actually due well as a suicide unit and a sniper unit.
My defiler has killed a few named characters so he gets an okay rating.
My helbrutes just die on turn one. I think I have gotten to shoot with them once.
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: Here are the opinions on Chaos units, resumed in one word/sentence, what are your thought about it :
Spoiler:
HQ : - Daemon Prince : Must have - Lord : Good - Sorcerer : Fuc**ng good - Dark Apostle : Optionnal (only if lots of cultist) - Warpsmith ??
Troops : - Chaos space marine : Meh.. - Cultist : Best CSM troops (exept if you are EC or WE) - NM & Berzeker : Best trops in 8th edition ?
Elit : - Terminators : Eventually good with combi weapon and mark of Slaanesh - Chosen : Overcosted - Possessed : Eventually if you cant take Berzeker - Helbrute : Best Elite slot - Mutilator : Trash tier
Rhino : Must have if you got some infantry without deep strike more valuable than cultist (Possessed, Bezeker, Noise etc...)
Fast attack : - Bikers ? - Raptors : Bad ? - Warp talon : Bad - Spawn : Best fast attack in chaos ?
Heldrake : Meh ?
Support : - Land Raider : Good ? - Predator : Best CSM support unit ? - Havocs : Second best CSM support unit if you can take Slaanesh mark ? - Obliterators : Good now they are Assault4 ? - Vindicator : Bad ? - Forgefiend ? Maulerfiend ? - Defiler ?
A few thoughts on how to improve this list.
- Lord: Good, makes everyone else better.
- Warpsmith: Cheap HQ for secondary detachments.
- Noise Marines / Khorne Berzerkers: Best shooting unit in the game. Best assault unit in the game, when they can get there.
- Bikers: meh. Harassment unit for enemy chaff that becomes expensive objective grabber late game.
- Raptors: meh. The new Termicide, but without the hassle of invulnerable saves.
- Warp Talon: Good. Proof Deep Strike + Warp Time can work as a tactic.
- Heldrake: meh. For harassing marginal units early game.
- Havocs: meh. Ablative wounds with heavy weapons to lose in morale checks.
- Vindicator: Bad. Lascannon magnet with 24 inch range.
- Forgefiend: meh. When you really want to use all your command points on Daemonforge.
- Maulerfiend: meh. When you really want to use all your command points on charge rerolls.
- Defiler: Good. Autotake when you run out of Laspred models.
Plus, no list is complete without Forgeworld All-Stars.
So I am building an Ork-CSM list, aka, my chaosy-ork monstrosities. So I have what by now must only be described as a fetish for big walkers and robot/deamonic/orky/killy fings. I had at first been thinking DG, but the more I look at the CSM codex the more I realise how strong some of the standard stuff is! especially with legion bonuses.
So;
2x defiler (a must, because I just made 2 awesome models)
3-5 helbrutes
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought
and then what to suppliment?
Is a warpsmith decent? seems like the most useful on paper for the list, but not seeing that many opinions on them. repairs d3 wounds seems his best bonus.
Then I cant decide between Night lords or alpha legion, as both the helbrutes and Contemptor gain the buff, which paired with say the butcher cannon seems like a solid way to add extra damage output in the morale phase. Question is, is that better than say alpha legion, as I am going to need the helbrutes in close range for the morale casualties to be maximised, whereas a flat -1 to being hit on a full mech list seems brutal.
Thoughts? If you could only bring the biggest baddest stompiest machina of death, what would you bring? and have I missed out a potentially good legion other than NL and AL?
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Oh My God. I only just realised that I can form a detatchment from as many legions as you wish. Wow, that opens it up a bit. So if I have this right, I can make the defliers DG, to remove the penalty for firing and moving heavy weapons. while giving my helbrutes AL to make them more resilient to shooting. Then I can focus the helbrutes on horde mulching, while the defiler pumps out the AT goodness.
Man, I am liking this new dex.
the above is correct? I haven't misread the rules on legions have i?
Chosen are definitely not overcosted. Compared to the regular Chaos Marine, 3 points gives you an extra Attack and LD, and easier special weapon saturation. Plus, with slots not being too contested for with multiple detachments, you can easily fit them in.
Something im toying around with the idea of
Csm + daemons mono nurgle 1500 points
Battalion
Daemon prince wings 2 x talons nurgle miasma
Sorceror nurgle force stave plasma pistol prescience warp time
Captyn_Bob wrote:To get the legion bonus the entire detachment has to be the same legion
Automatically Appended Next Post: And defilers can't get the DG trait anyway
ahhh i knew there would be a limitation smewhwere. But if im bringing a heavy support detatchment, so 2x defiler and say some obliterators, i can give them all alpha legion. And can the defiler not get the DG bonus? is it missing a keyword or something?
BillyN831 wrote:Is mass hellbrutes for the cp stratagem to fire twice any good? Thanks.
i was looking at that stratagem, so as you can only use it once per turn, its probably only worth taking 2-3 full shooty helbrutes. as your only going to use it once per turn and can expect to lose a helbrute or two over the course of the battle but i am looking at running quite a few helbrutes and i think 2-3 shooty combined with about the same but with scourge and heavybolters should do it. fist and hammer seem like expensive weapons and its probably better just shooting the targets you'd hammer and fist with your shooty helbrutes. the scourge can then chip off the final wounds.
if you can take one, a sonic dread has the helbrute keyword, and thus can be made to fire twice. which sounds disgustly fun
Arkaine wrote: Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.
A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?
\
For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.
Captyn_Bob wrote:To get the legion bonus the entire detachment has to be the same legion
Automatically Appended Next Post: And defilers can't get the DG trait anyway
ahhh i knew there would be a limitation smewhwere. But if im bringing a heavy support detatchment, so 2x defiler and say some obliterators, i can give them all alpha legion. And can the defiler not get the DG bonus? is it missing a keyword or something?
Defiler is a Daemon Engine not a helbrute, so no legion bonuses apply. And Death Guard don't have the Daemon Forge stratagem, so better off as another legion, unless you're getting synergy with Nurgle Deamons.
Daemon Prince: Good, not super durable though. Must be thoughtful.
Sorc: Great - Warp Time is awesome. Prescience is awesome. Smite is awesome.
Dark Apostle: Eh, I honestly don't think cultists are really worth buffing. Pretty great for Berzerkers, especially since misses can generate exploding 6's on the reroll.
Exalted Champion: I think the aura is really good, but I don't think the character is very good due to the lack of an invuln save. I think he should be 1 PL cheaper (I play PL more than I do points).
Troops:
Cultists: Dunno, they die really easily. Good for filling out detachments, and the recycling stratagem is good, but every list I've fought so far has just slaughtered them. Obviously. That's why the exist. But in terms of holding objectives, they can do it only if nothing is trying to take it from them. Autoguns over pistols/CCW. Morale tests on big units just finish the units off. I think MSU is the way I'd prefer, since it's no more expensive than a bigger unit but requires more thoughtful application of firepower from the opponent.
CSM: Meh. Not impressive. Plasma guns have been useful.
Berzerkers: Awesome, but die pretty easily.
Heldrakes: Turn 1 charges are cool to tie stuff up, but they don't do much damage and don't have enough attacks to justify popping daemonforge. I've been taking 2 in my list, will probably cut it back to 1.
Heavy Support:
Maulerfiend: Good with daemonforge active, terrible without it. Not super hard to kill, but clutch daemon saves often stave off death for an extra turn. A good candidate for Warp Time, in my experience. I'm gonna try running Blood Slaughterers instead, I think I'd like them more. 2 less strength but WS3+.
Transports:
Rhinos: Super legit. Popping smoke has saved them multiple times. Transport of choice for my berzerkers.
Arkaine wrote: Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.
A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?
\
For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.
Well, its still just for 4 heavy support weapons. Is it really efficient to pay 200 plus, close to 300 points for 4 heavy bolters shooting? I mean, unless the rest of your army has no other heavy support shooting, I would just ignore your bastion and kill off other stuff first. 4 heavy bolters are painful, but hardly OP. Your other shooting won't be so well protected.
Captyn_Bob wrote:To get the legion bonus the entire detachment has to be the same legion
Automatically Appended Next Post: And defilers can't get the DG trait anyway
ahhh i knew there would be a limitation smewhwere. But if im bringing a heavy support detatchment, so 2x defiler and say some obliterators, i can give them all alpha legion. And can the defiler not get the DG bonus? is it missing a keyword or something?
Defiler is a Daemon Engine not a helbrute, so no legion bonuses apply. And Death Guard don't have the Daemon Forge stratagem, so better off as another legion, unless you're getting synergy with Nurgle Deamons.
Best use of Daemon forge strategem I have observed, is on a Khorne Lord of Skulls. That thing has a hades gratling gun for 12 shots, and can take an Ichor cannon for another d6, range 48 inch shots. So, when you use daemonforge on the lord of skulls (which is certainly a daemon engine), you are rerolling to hit and to wound for 12 str 8 shots and another d6str 7 shots. Very deadly. It has a BS of 3+ too, so rerolling to hit means a really high percentage of its shots will hit.
Arkaine wrote: Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.
A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?
\
For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.
Well, its still just for 4 heavy support weapons. Is it really efficient to pay 200 plus, close to 300 points for 4 heavy bolters shooting? I mean, unless the rest of your army has no other heavy support shooting, I would just ignore your bastion and kill off other stuff first. 4 heavy bolters are painful, but hardly OP. Your other shooting won't be so well protected.
I think you're forgetting the Havocs themselves. Four lascannons that you can't shoot at and a combi-plasma on the champion (or combi-flamer if he wants to protect from assaulting the building).
That's 8 heavy weapons + a combi weapon that can shoot freely until the bastion is killed. At which point it's still four lascannons that can shoot freely. Or autocannons. Or whatever your preferred long range havoc death launcher happens to be.
The four heavy bolters I mentioned were on the building itself.
Arkaine wrote: Havocs improve noticeably when inserted into a bastion or similar fortification. They far outclass the predator.
A Chaos Bastion is doubling the price of the unit, though. Is that really worth it?
\ For four heavy bolters and a mountain of defense? Totally. Havocs become immune to takedown and the two combined become an immobile super heavy tank.
Well, its still just for 4 heavy support weapons. Is it really efficient to pay 200 plus, close to 300 points for 4 heavy bolters shooting? I mean, unless the rest of your army has no other heavy support shooting, I would just ignore your bastion and kill off other stuff first. 4 heavy bolters are painful, but hardly OP. Your other shooting won't be so well protected.
I think you're forgetting the Havocs themselves. Four lascannons that you can't shoot at and a combi-plasma on the champion (or combi-flamer if he wants to protect from assaulting the building).
That's 8 heavy weapons + a combi weapon that can shoot freely until the bastion is killed. At which point it's still four lascannons that can shoot freely. Or autocannons. Or whatever your preferred long range havoc death launcher happens to be.
The four heavy bolters I mentioned were on the building itself.
Not convinced the Bastion brings Havocs to the point where they outclass a Laspred.
The cost for the Bastion + Havocs works out 405 points with a min sized squad armed with Lascannons. The Bastion itself has 20 wounds, it's T 10 and a 4+ save. You get an extra 5 wounds for the Havocs.
The cost of 2 Predators with 8 Lascannons works out to be 432 points. The Predators have a total of 22 wounds, T 7 and a 3+ save.
So it's 20 points more for -3 wounds, a better save, and +4 Lascannons with the Predators. Even if you lose a Predator, the remaining one still has as many Lascannons as the Bastion.
Sure, the Bastion is harder to wound with S5 weapons. But is it really outclassing the Predators when it has half the Lascannons? The Bastion is immobile, it's going to need range to be an offensive threat. There are also some stratagems that make it easier to take out fortifications, whereas vehicles generally take the same amount of damage no matter who is doing the shooting.
The Bastion has T10. That isn't just hard to wound on S5 but also S4, so the most common heavy bolters and under weapons are failing to wound. But what else? Overcharged plasma, Autocannons, Missile Launchers, Lascannons, every single anti-armor marine weapon is rendered less effective.
The Bastion also doesn't lose shots until it falls, the Havocs don't lose shots until a few wounds after that. Yet the Predators lose shots as soon as one falls. And how much easier is it to kill a Predator anyhow? All the Strength 8-9 anti-tank weapons hit on 3s, wound on 3s against Predator BUT only hit on 3s and wound on 5s against a Chaos Bastion.
Meaning against anti-tank, the perfect building annihilator, Predators have 22 wounds but about a 44% chance to take wounds, with the armor save mattering little to not at all against this level of AP. Yet the Bastion only has a 22% chance of taking wounds from the same weapons. The Predator may have around the same wound total as the Bastion + havoc team but it takes wounds at twice the rate.
Against non-anti-tank weapons like the S4 and S5 bolter spam the Predator is getting wounded on 5s while the Bastion gets wounded on 6s. Again, half as many wounds are getting through to the Bastion as the Predator. The save might matter a little more in this case but still not enough to offset the massive difference in wound totals.
So you're looking at, over the course of the game, two vehicles that fire 8 lascannons but lose half their shots as soon as 11 wounds are lost at a 44% chance to get wounded versus anti-tank.
Versus a single building that fires 4 heavy bolters, 4 lascannons, and potentially an Icarus Lascannon, Quad-gun, or Combi-plasma and gets wounded 22% of the time against the same weapons.
The Predators will have more early burst and evaporate to any sustained fire (including possibly losing them turn 1 before they do anything) but only half the durability.
The Bastion doesn't have quite half the firepower due to a bunch of other guns on it but definitely has twice the durability, which will see the lascannons continuing to fire for several turns.
I would say that if that one squad of lascannon havocs was your only and main heavy support in your whole army, then it might be worth it. Because they won't have any other alternative target. But if you are running more than one heavy support choice, if you are also running laspredator tank, or defiler, or Mortarion, or obliterators also, or any other target which would be a good alternative target for heavy weapons to aim at, then the opponent can simply choose to leave that bastion for last.
On the subject of Havocs vs Preds, worth noting that Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and to a degree Iron Warriors have slightly better Havocs due to taking fewer wounds, having fewer run away, and ignoring cover. Though AL's the only really significant one IMO.
Been running noise marines since the book dropped. Here is how I kit them out.
10x Noise Marines
2x blast master
5x Sonic Blaster
Champion with Sonic Blaster and Chain Ax
215
This gives me two disposable bodies, especially for morale tests since that doesnt trigger shooting. Chain Axe is because I like rounding to 5 haha, first thing to go.
People compare Blastmasters negatively to missile launchers yet I would argue that they are far superior(outside of the flakk missile strategem).
Assault d6str 4 -1 is flat out superior to the frag grenade version(especially with ignore cover).
Main shot has same strength and AP(although blast master ignores cover so better)
Average 2 shots versus 1. Average 2 damage versus 3.5 per shot. So the blast masters with 2 shots will average .5 more wounds than a missile launcher. Add in that they have the same maximum number of wounds while blast masters will min at 2 wounds. Blast masters are better against 1 wound, equal against two/three wounds(however they have the possibility of killing two versus none).
Blast Masters lend themselves more towards steady sustained damage against large targets and the extra shots are significant against smaller targets over a missile launcher. Add in the option for double tapping a unit and you are in a solid place.
Currently I run two 10 man units in every list as the foundation. I want to run 1 of 20, however the blast master limit makes it hard to do haha.
Leth wrote: Been running noise marines since the book dropped. Here is how I kit them out.
10x Noise Marines
2x blast master
5x Sonic Blaster
Champion with Sonic Blaster and Chain Ax
215
This gives me two disposable bodies, especially for morale tests since that doesnt trigger shooting. Chain Axe is because I like rounding to 5 haha, first thing to go.
People compare Blastmasters negatively to missile launchers yet I would argue that they are far superior(outside of the flakk missile strategem).
Assault d6str 4 -1 is flat out superior to the frag grenade version(especially with ignore cover).
Main shot has same strength and AP(although blast master ignores cover so better)
Average 2 shots versus 1. Average 2 damage versus 3.5 per shot. So the blast masters with 2 shots will average .5 more wounds than a missile launcher. Add in that they have the same maximum number of wounds while blast masters will min at 2 wounds. Blast masters are better against 1 wound, equal against two/three wounds(however they have the possibility of killing two versus none).
Blast Masters lend themselves more towards steady sustained damage against large targets and the extra shots are significant against smaller targets over a missile launcher. Add in the option for double tapping a unit and you are in a solid place.
Currently I run two 10 man units in every list as the foundation. I want to run 1 of 20, however the blast master limit makes it hard to do haha.
Thanks for the write up. How are you finding them against certain kinds of enemy? Do you find them effective? People seem to think them on the slightly weaker side in this thread. Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?
What the general consensus on Troop choices? I know Cultists are usually the go-to because of their cheapness but beyond that I don't quite see the value aside from that? They die to a stiff breeze and will lose even more to morale. They might have a bit more staying power as AL but beyond camping on a home objective and hope the opponent doesn't look their way, I'm not sure how they're supposed to be used, it doesn't help that I'm not a huge fan of their models anyway. Chaos Marines are a bit more durable and can at least take a heavy weapon so they're not completely useless while sitting on an objective, but the points do add up especially when trying to fill in a 1500 pt Battalion I'm trying to load up with Terminators and Obliterators and the like. Ideally I'd prefer not to bring Troops because Chaos has so many better units worth the points but ObSec and the CP from Battalions are hard to ignore. Can anyone chime in on Cultists vs Chaos Marines?
Thanks for the write up. How are you finding them against certain kinds of enemy? Do you find them effective? People seem to think them on the slightly weaker side in this thread. Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?
They are the TAC/horde unit in my army. They are not as specialized against any particular unit but they can reliably clear out a bunch of models. They are mobile without losing too much effectiveness(even if they advance) etc. They have a LOT of versatility and uses. Honestly for the points I cant find anything that does everything they can do for less.
Also, especially against plasma drop type armies they are great because when one unit shoots, I kill off some dudes, then shoot those dudes at a unit that has not shot yet.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: What the general consensus on Troop choices? I know Cultists are usually the go-to because of their cheapness but beyond that I don't quite see the value aside from that? They die to a stiff breeze and will lose even more to morale. They might have a bit more staying power as AL but beyond camping on a home objective and hope the opponent doesn't look their way, I'm not sure how they're supposed to be used, it doesn't help that I'm not a huge fan of their models anyway. Chaos Marines are a bit more durable and can at least take a heavy weapon so they're not completely useless while sitting on an objective, but the points do add up especially when trying to fill in a 1500 pt Battalion I'm trying to load up with Terminators and Obliterators and the like. Ideally I'd prefer not to bring Troops because Chaos has so many better units worth the points but ObSec and the CP from Battalions are hard to ignore. Can anyone chime in on Cultists vs Chaos Marines?
Im using 6 units of Chaos Marines, in cover, with Lascannons. I run an entire Brigade. This severely limits me in how I can build the force, but it has proven to be a very adaptable force and has a very good record. It has however lost to Magnus and the gang as of yesterday and it did take a thumping from the Tau Empire once.
The Chaos Marines seem to produce really well and they are doughty in cover, very doughty.
The ability to pick up and place Cultists is extremely strong though. I have to say, that ability is a game winner if your opponent doesn't know to expect it or he kind of spaces it when its time to place objectives. Deciding when to do it is a thing, but that Strategem is really good regardless and it's probably always worth having a unit of cultists in the mix.
I'm looking at getting a bunch of Noise Marines ready for combat. I've already got a score of Berzerkers, with a few spare plasma pistoliers, so they can be twenty in a Spartan or two tens in Rhinos, and I'm thinking about a similar quota for the other cult units (Lorgarian polytheists here).
It's going to be a display unit, so I want to plan it all out properly. So... at the minimum, I want two Blastmasters and a Champion. They'll usually be riding in a Kharybdis, with DA & EC.
Should probably make space for a Lord and Sorcerer, for 35/36 accuracy? Or perhaps they should be wearing Jump Packs to make room for more gunners, and be able to respond to threats & opportunities? Already have a JP Slaaneshi Sorcerer, and an idea for a Lord.
Should I aim to give the squad Delightful Agonies, or should I embrace the Music of the Apocalypse and cast the endurance spell on some Possessed? FNP on 2W models is a solid foil to their counters - autocannons and overcharged plasma lose almost 40% of their effectiveness, whilst getting more shots off during the enemy's turn is Changeling tier trolling. Hmm. I guess the Sorcerer should be Warptiming the Kharybdis into a mass of corpse-lovers and leaving DA to others.
Okay... so, if they're not sharing a transport with two others, and have three specialists, that's 17 Sonic Blasters. (No point in ablative bodies - I almost always play Power Levels, so I'm going to be paying for the full Monty.) Now, in smaller games, I guess I'll often be taking ten in a Rhino... that raises the possibility of another ten in a Rhino, who'd want another couple of Blastmasters and a Siren?
For the effort involved, it seems marginal - if I can afford to field twenty Noise Marines, they'll go in a Kharybdis or go home. I'll probably still do it for display, but they're not going to be high priority.
Certainly not going to be done before ten Flamer Rubricae in a Rhino for the last word in horde deterrence, ten gunner Rubricae for parking in a ruin, ten melee Plague Marines in a Rhino, and ten gunner PMs for firefights. That's eighty monolatrists - I'm going to be busy a while!
Just use Cultists. Regular Chaos Marines are a garbage source of special weapons compared to Havocs and Chosen, and Cultists camp superbly better and still got that fun recycle Strategem, as often as it doesn't pop up.
I am not finding the CP from a Brigade to be worth the restrictions:
- Heralds and Nurglings are excellent; taking either will kill Legion trait
- Only five HQ slots? For fifteen units minimum, more when you add Rhinos & Flyers & LoWs? In an army that loves aura buffs? I'm always packing my gunline CL, and my flying DP & Steed Sorcerer. If I take zerks with a DA & EC, that's my quota filled. We have good spells and I want to try to cast more than three a turn, and probably take Warptime twice to keep them guessing.
- taking CSM soup kills Legion traits. DG have some sweet Daemon units that can kill stuff for Epidemius, and most of us have one or two of them already.
- having to take three each of Elite, FA, HS. When I tried to stamp a square Brigade down a 120pow round hole, I'd have to cut ablative bodies here and there. I'd have buckets of CP but no Cultist squads worth spending them on to recycle & outflank, I'd have emaciated Havocs who'd lose a heavy weapon to derisory small arms fire, I'd have naff all Transports, I'd drop Terminators for Helbrutes, I'd have no Reinforcement Points to reinforce my line where it's needed.
I am finding it more effective to take two Battalions, one with plenty of Cultists, one with a Plaguebearer unit & two Nurgling units & two Heralds, one of them being Epidemius or Karanak. Then, usually a Spearhead of Havocs and Oblits, and usually two of a Vanguard or Outriders or a Supreme Command (Berzerker party van).
yeah, I think its better to run a battalion to get those 6 troops and then just add on a spearhead or some other detachment so that you have more flexibility in how you design your list. Rather than force it into a brigade.
Eldenfirefly wrote: yeah, I think its better to run a battalion to get those 6 troops and then just add on a spearhead or some other detachment so that you have more flexibility in how you design your list. Rather than force it into a brigade.
That said, if you're already taking 6 troops...why not try to go for the Brigade?
I'm good with just 4 Cultist squads to be honest. Maybe even just three. For extra CP, Arkos is always available to us Alpha Legion players.
Because brigade has even more restrictions to your list building I believe. You have to take a minimum 3 choices of fast attack, elite and even heavy support as well. I feel that to squeeze 6 troop choices into an army list is already a chunk of points (unless you just take 6 cultist units). To then further restrict yourself in terms of taking a minimum of 3 elites, fast attack and heavy support is further restricting your list building options.
Let's say you are going heavy support focus, along with those 6 to 9 troop choices you want. So, take a batallion to get your 6 troops, and then take spearheard. Then you can take up the heavy support you want to focus on, and spearhead lets you add another 3 more troop choices as well.
Now you have an army which is focused on troops and heavy support. And you can skip the elite and FA which you don't need. Whereas if you took brigade, you are forced to find the points to take 3 more elites and 3 more FA.
Its still a 90 points tax if you weren't planning to take any in the first place. I tried to make a brigade in my army list before. At 2000 points, I just found it so restrictive I dropped the idea. It only works if the list just happens to already have 3 FA, 3 elites and 3 heavy support choices as well.
If I run 18 Khorne Berserkers with dark apostle and exalted champion in rhinos do I stand a chance against an all Chaos Space Marine bike list? Thanks.
BillyN831 wrote: If I run 18 Khorne Berserkers with dark apostle and exalted champion in rhinos do I stand a chance against an all Chaos Space Marine bike list? Thanks.
The Rhinos will be super key here. If they don't live, the Berserker Marines will be charged and shot and likely die. You're gonna need to screen them.
TonyH122 wrote: Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?
The main difference between these units is their offense / defense ratio.
Havocs have a strong offense and weak defense.
Obliterators have a very strong offense and medium defense.
Predators have a medium offense and strong defense.
Forgefiends have a very weak offense and very strong defense (but with the Daemonforge Stratagem they have a very strong offense)
TLDR : I think Obliterators are the "must-go" unit in 8th, due to their Deepstrike ability and synergy with Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony. If you can spare some CP though, the Forgefiend is great. Predators are good in pairs since their are self-reliable.
I find that Obliterators have great defense in the sense that you can hold them in reserve and then deep strike them in. This assures that they at least get to fire once. And then if they survive the return fire, they can fire again.
Any other heavy support choice listed above, whether havocs, predators or forgefiends can get shot off the table before they even get off their first shot in.
So, lets say you are facing a super shooty list. You can't always gaurantee you will go first. But obliterators at least saves your heavy support from that heavy first strike so that you can at least shoot back.
TonyH122 wrote: Do you find you'd rather 3x Obliterators, some plasma'd up Havocs/Chosen, or a Forgefiend?
The main difference between these units is their offense / defense ratio.
Havocs have a strong offense and weak defense.
Obliterators have a very strong offense and medium defense.
Predators have a medium offense and strong defense.
Forgefiends have a very weak offense and very strong defense (but with the Daemonforge Stratagem they have a very strong offense)
TLDR : I think Obliterators are the "must-go" unit in 8th, due to their Deepstrike ability and synergy with Veterans of the Long War and Endless Cacophony. If you can spare some CP though, the Forgefiend is great. Predators are good in pairs since their are self-reliable.
This is a really good way of looking at things IMO. Point of order; Predators carry as many guns as Havocs and can pack a Havoc rack - why are they ranked lower in offense? Lack of EC/VOTLW? If those are going to be used for Oblits (or Noise Marines), how does Predator-Havoc look then? I have to say, the lower PL and armoured threat saturation when taking loads of Rhinos has me tempted.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you're hoping for Killshot, a Spearhead of Predators usually won't care about Legion traits, so it's also a useful soup Detachment that odd Daemon units can go in as well. (Until they get amazing traits, of course)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean you probably really wanna keep VOTLW & EC for your Noise Marines...
lindsay40k wrote: Point of order; Predators carry as many guns as Havocs and can pack a Havoc rack - why are they ranked lower in offense?
I based this quick and half-assed rating on wounds per point efficiency, not global damage output / resilience. 5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons cost 165 and a Predator with 4 Lascannons 190. It means that Havocs deal more wounds per point than the Predator.
As for Stratagems, not everyone plays Noise Marines and if you really need to kill 2 Rhinos in a turn, it's better to use your stratagems on Obliterators.
Ah right. See, I play power levels, and I am extremely averse to fielding minimum size Havocs - so I'm comparing an Annihilator with a Havoc rack to ten Havocs.
(Why did they have to give us a weapon and a unit with the same name? It's as if Tyranids got a beast called a Fleshborer.)
Also I think the two units' mobility is a factor - on a large table, Predators can be deployed out of range/LOS then zoom forwards to take their shots. Havocs are a lot more stationary (though in a Ruin, they're pretty tough to dislodge).
All things considered, I think they're pretty well balanced, and it's really down to army synergy, Legion traits, and personal preference.
I have a question for you all, what about Vindicators? Sure its half the range for a S10 D3 or D6 when shoot and 5 or more models that can do D6 damage, not to mention they have a rather interesting Strategem in doing 3D3 mortal wounds. That is definitely something that can be useful against characters.
Blueguy203 wrote: I have a question for you all, what about Vindicators? Sure its half the range for a S10 D3 or D6 when shoot and 5 or more models that can do D6 damage, not to mention they have a rather interesting Strategem in doing 3D3 mortal wounds. That is definitely something that can be useful against characters.
Eh... It works, half the time. And what are you using it on that's really worth shooting with it? I can't think of anything really that has both 5 or more models AND more than 2 wounds. (Plague Drones CAN be run in a squad of 6, but I MSU mine.)
Three vindicators that start the game out of range, and lose their linebreaker if just one of them is killed or damaged enough to be kept out of range, is an awfully risky and expensive solution to a problem that can probably be avoided. Plus you're only going to actually hit 1/3 of the characters. If the game's big enough to field the three of them without compromising on long ranged firepower, then your opponent will certainly have the means to counter them.
What the Stratagem does is scare units from bunching up tight, and force your opponent to kill a Vindicator on turn one when they ought to be stopping a rhino rush.
Speaking of Vindicators, what are peoples thoughts on FW Laser Destroyer Vindicators? I'm surprised I don't hear much discussion about them, even though theyre slightly cheaper than predator annihilators, tougher, and mount more reliable/versatile lascannons (4x 3 damage shots, or 2x 6 damage stronger shots for big nasties)
I've run mine in a few games, and it's been fantastic. Not having to rely on swingy D6 damage is awesome for reliably cracking vehicles. Of all the forgeworld vehicles, theyre also one of the easier to convert/kitbash.
Well, FW forgot to include them in our Index, and not content with having us buy two books to get Renegades with our Astartes and Knights, they've resolved the issue not by just releasing the rules as a free errata but by telling us to buy a third book, this one being for our defining antagonist.
In terms of what it does, it's a Predator Annihilator with worse range that loses half its shots when it moves. It's got heal-from-eating-people but no Infernal Hunger, not that either of them are useful on a ranged unit, not that it's got a particularly useful range for a unit that loses about 2/3 of its effectiveness whilst relocating.
Fixed damage is not at all bad when it's at levels that guarantee dropping targets down a damage band or killing them off, and Overcharge Fire is interesting, but unless you're firing on T5 or 9/10 then 2xS10 AP5 D6 doesn't perform as well as 4xLascannons. If the target has an invulnerable save then the AP difference is moot and the gap is much wider.
Oh, and you can't heal it with a Warpsmith. You can give it a HK Missile, but that's only because of the lackadaisical patch.
It's 7 points cheaper than a Predator Annihilator that's got 12" more range, can be repaired, and can fire a Killshot. Unless you're playing Power Levels, in which case it's actually 1pow more expensive.
I'd like to like it, but it's looking like a 5ed Carnifex. More power to you for getting it to work (what's your approach to AV gunlines with 48" heavy weapons?), if I had one then I'd use it in friendly games alongside something that's undercosted for what it does.
I totally agree about the hamhanded "patch" with it's rules. Another bruise in the shoddy FW indexes.
I guess I've gotten mine to to work because it fills a ranged AV role in my otherwise assault-heavy army. The range hasn't been much of an issue, as I'm deploying forward behind my assault lines rather than strictly backfield. It's not getting charged, because its surrounded in choppy units, and it avoids a lot of fire because there's onther faster threats moving towards the enemy (maulers, dreads, rhinos full of zerkers). At the extreme, it will have to move up once to engage units at the far edge of the board, but that's been an edgecase and there are ways to mitigate the loss of shots. Those 2x 6 damage shots can still obliterate most vehicle chassis if they hit, and throwing a CP for negating the movement penalty can be worthwhile with a command reroll or nearby lord/prince for more accuracy/wounding. If the vehicle doesnt have an invul save, it's just eats 12 wounds and dies, even if its in cover.
The T8 I feel makes up for its comparable shortcomings. 36" range is fine most of the time, but being more survivable against many AT threats make it nice as a plug-in tankhunter and good alternative to anhilators (which I find kind of boring for some reason. At least the vindicator can hilariously melt itself into a molten puddle on the ground).
I'm not ever going to take 3 las predators, so the killshot is irrelevant to me, and if Im talking a warpsmith, he's fixing up assault walkers (though that hellforged errata is stupid as balls).
Winged Daemon Prince 170
Talisman of Burning Blood 0
2 x Malefic Talons 10
Heldrake 138
Heldrake claws 17
Baleflamer 30
Heldrake 138
Heldrake claws 17
Baleflamer 30
-Triple preds for killshotting + lord for rerolls (3x twin lascannons deal around average 18 wounds against T8 3+ when using Killshot)
-Three rhinos keep the bezerkers safe, potential turn 2 charges (couldnt afford icons)
-Daemon prince and heldrakes try and get turn 1 charges and cause disruption.
-Effective target saturation of only high T, high wound models (Complete opposite to my orks )
-10 deployment drops
I take it the Rhinos are Advancing and popping smoke on the first turn to maximise chances of charges working? If so, why not trade in their Havoc Missiles for those Icons of Wrath? If the DP's role is to get turn one charges, you could then replace him with another Heldrake who'll be more likely to succeed, and bring an extra CP?
Edit: fully mech is probably more viable than Somme reenactment societies, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to leave the Cultists at home anytime soon
@Lindsay - Yeah good shout with the havocs / icons. I was trying to maximise firepower on the rhinos to make tyhem useful mid/late game, but i think i might do that instead.
I originally had put in three heldrakes, but I already have a winged DP model so that was the only reason i swapped it. By swapping it i'd lose the necessary HQ so I wouldnt get the extra CP anyway.
I agree with the point about cultists too, they are very useful for securing objectives and denying deep strike
@Vomikron - I think the consensus is that World Eaters Bezerkers will struggle to not get shot off the board (unless maybe you run like 100 of them!), hence why I'm looking to a fully mechanised list.
Don't run pure WE, have a secondary detachment so you can take some shooting elements, sorcerers and cultists to get more CP. WE work best with the right support units.
Levski wrote: @Lindsay - Yeah good shout with the havocs / icons. I was trying to maximise firepower on the rhinos to make tyhem useful mid/late game, but i think i might do that instead.
I originally had put in three heldrakes, but I already have a winged DP model so that was the only reason i swapped it. By swapping it i'd lose the necessary HQ so I wouldnt get the extra CP anyway.
I think we might have a misunderstanding here, to clear up any miscommunication this is what I'm suggesting:
Spearhead: 1CP
Lord
Predator
Predator
Predator
Battalion: 3CP
DA EC Zerks
Zerks
Zerks
Rhino
Rhino
Rhino
Air Wing: 1CP
Heldrake
Heldrake
Heldrake
I would actually be totally down to field something like this myself, if the game were large enough to accommodate a Battalion of Cultists to stop the Predators getting popped by Scions et al. I suspect that will be the main weakness of pure mech. I do like the simplicity. I'd put the Lord on a Bike, simply as that's how I envisage the officer of a tank squadron, but JP is better due to DS capability & Fly. Wish we had a Tank Commander Warpsmith option.
My mistake, I thought Heldrakes were fast attack thanks for clarifying
Just went through the list and if you strip out all the havoc launchers, extra combi bolters and probably 1 bezerker, then you can squeeze 30 cultists in...but that may not be enough still.
You could probably get away with dropping a heldrake then that would be another 45 cultists,but then the nice list symmetry 3 / 3 / 3 is destroyed (because that's very important )
There's always the option to switch a Heldrake with a Hell Blade. It'll save dropping a Berzerker for the meat shield, and if you come up against an opposing Air Wing it'll stop DftS dogfights from being a one-sided pigeon shoot. Pretty good capability at pouncing on backfield indirect fire units and characters, too.
So I have read this entire thread from page one now and have some questions in regards to world eaters myself. I'm normally a single legion army personally, not wanting to run multiple detachments of different legions so no sorcerers for me. Also no Forge world. I don't have a problem with Forge world personally but I don't want to run it myself.
Kharn the betrayer seems to work best as a supportive unit for long range, like defilers or predators. Is this the general consensus, run him for his aura giving shooting units a nice boost and using his powerful cc stats as a counter offensive to make my opponent think twice about charging my fire line, but keep him away from your actual beserkers. Fair assessment?
Most people say run beserkers in rhinos and not floot slog them, but I have 60 beserkers and 1 rhino lol. I'm thinking of getting 5 more rhinos to do a 6 rhino rush, or just running them as 3 large blobs and run. If I do the running beserkers I would run renegades legion tactics and get access to sorcerer, but lose kharn and the nice +1 attack on charge for advance and charge, is this probably the best way to go? (Oh and I would have to run elite detachments because I now have no troops). Which is the better way to go do you guys think? I think they both have merits.
Helldrakes : I love the model but it seems to do best as a distraction carnifex at this point unless my opponent runs aircraft themselves, in which case it's fly straight at it and charge. Fair assessment? Have you guys had any luck using them a different way?
Finally, Deamon prince. I have been running him with wings, talons, and the collar artifact for my anti psychic use. I think this is a fantastic way to run it, powerful, quick, and supportive. If I do go the renegades way though would it be better to go mark of slaneesh with the elixir? He could still counter psychic powers, still get a ton of attacks at a higher strength, and get access to his own psychic powers, I am thinking the 5+ fnp power would be most useful on himself.
Have I gotten this all correct or did I miss something?
). I think Bikes are pretty solid for Chaos, although I'm not sure Meltas are the best choice for them. Plasma is probably better. Definitely a good idea to mark them Slaanesh and use the double tap stratagem; this could be hilarious against a big blob of Conscripts/Ork Boyz/Cultists while running flamers or something.
I'd rate Kill shot and veterans of the long war higher, simply because predators are actually not bad and +1 to wound is awesome. I also think beseech the Chaos gods is pretty useless and would rate it lower.
Possessed and Warp Talons benefit more from the 5++ that they have, because it works against such things, but that Predator, or those ten marines we were talking about, sure could use a 5++ to cover themselves.
love it! They die quite easily, but a unit of 10 packing axes/swords/fist on champ is just glorious murder.
