Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyway, about his movement. That's not really a big issue. He already moves 12 inches, as fast as a DP. Plus, I assume those wings he has aren't for show only, so he will have the fly keyword. So, he will effectively be like a flying DP in terms of movement.
He is a CSM, so he can be boosted by warptime. Warptime him 12 inches up after he has moved his normal 12 inches means he is 24 inches up the board already. He should be in range then to charge something juicy. I think have to see his full rules to determine just how squishy he is. Maybe there is some rule we are missing here. I mean, if his DR is a 4+ DR with a rerollable 1, then all of a sudden he will look a lot more tanky.
Don't get me wrong - what you are saying is correct - he is fast, probably he hits hard aswell too. But thats not my issue... he wasn't supposed to be hardest hitting guy around - that was Angron's job. He was supposed to be THE TANK.
As it stands he got exactly same statline as magnus T7 / 18W 3+/4++ with difference that he got FNP and Magnus rerolls invu 1's ...
Now that doesn't look like impossible to take down in 1 turn at all. Far from it.
Against anything with a - 2 rend (aka lascannons, meltas, other powerful single shot weapons) his 4++ and 5+++ are better than Magnus' 4++ re-rolling 1s.
Disgustingly Resilient also works against mortal wounds which is a huge benefit.
Yes, Magnus can cast Weaver of Fates but Morty can cast Miasma of Pestilence which has a similar or better result depending on who is shooting at him.
This guy looks like an absolute beast and will definitely be around the same impact as Guilliman and Magnus.
saint_red wrote: Against anything with a - 2 rend (aka lascannons, meltas, other powerful single shot weapons) his 4++ and 5+++ are better than Magnus' 4++ re-rolling 1s.
Disgustingly Resilient also works against mortal wounds which is a huge benefit.
Yes, Magnus can cast Weaver of Fates but Morty can cast Miasma of Pestilence which has a similar or better result depending on who is shooting at him.
This guy looks like an absolute beast and will definitely be around the same impact as Guilliman and Magnus.
Well I know about miasma - but if you are not going first - then you won't have opportunity to cast it.
And guess where all lascannons and overheated plasmas will go ? Also Morty doesn't have equvialent of changeling who helps Magnus to survive even when isnt going 1st.
Given that I think it's safe to say Magnus is ... the resilient one there. But then again maybe there is hidden gem like actually 4+ FNP for Mortarion - then i suppose it would be making huge difference.
And again it seems like you guys dont understand what is my problem. He may be worth his points and hype but not in way he should be . That is my issue. He is not supposed to be insane killer machine fluff-wise.
He is known to outlast his opponents. So as i mentioned - he may be as powerful/useful as Magnus/Guilliman and still look disapointing in my eyes. Not what i was expecting. Too much focus on offensive, not enough on resilience.
Swaping his S with T would be at least good start.
He was supposed to be THE TANK.
As it stands he got exactly same statline as magnus T7 / 18W 3+/4++ with difference that he got FNP and Magnus rerolls invu 1's ...
Now that doesn't look like impossible to take down in 1 turn at all. Far from it.
We didn't saw his warlord trait. I'm expecting a tanky trait like reroll 1 for failed FnP. Even if Mortarion don't have his special warlord (wich will be surprising) you can give him the FnP 6+ of rulesbook (on top of his 5+ FnP as said the FAQ).
Unlike his brother Magnus or Guilliman, Mortarion can heal 2D3 wounds per turn ! (Nurgle stratagem and Chaos Nurgle spell), and we didnt saw the capacity of the DG Apothicary let
18 wounds, 4+ invulnerable and Disgustingly Resilient does make him a tough unit to kill.
It's the debuffs that really concern me though: "Toxic Presence reduces the Toughness of anyone foolish enough to stand close to him by 1, while Host of Plagues allows him to stack up a growing tally of Mortal Wounds on nearby enemies."
So he's not going to die easily and opponents will take automatic mortal wounds just standing near him. He's going to be tanking Storm Shield Terminators with about a 67% chance to shrug off any damage.
Did you see part in the video where the Poxwalker exploded? Imagining this as a mechanic for healing DG units. If it turns out he can regenerate wounds as well, fighting him will not be fun.
Lord of Contagion is entirely enclosed within a suit of the toughest infantry armour humanity has ever mass-produced, and loses a point of movement for it. Mortarion has got a massive pair of organic wings that are always going to be more exposed than his face that is left unhelmeted for model aesthetics, and is as mobile as a less portly Daemon Prince. He's just going to have to deal with small arms fire leaving pockmarks.
Assuming his DR is as normal, 4++ & 5+++ is equivalent to 3++ against attacks which roll to wound, and is far superior against Mortal Wounds. So, when Mortarion is asleep, his body is more resilient to damage than that of the greatest psyker in the galaxy when he's not having his barriers trolled by Sisters of Silence. If he casts Miasma upon himself, he's probably the toughest thing in his league.
3++ is here to stay, until GW get tired of selling THSS Squads.
saint_red wrote: Against anything with a - 2 rend (aka lascannons, meltas, other powerful single shot weapons) his 4++ and 5+++ are better than Magnus' 4++ re-rolling 1s.
Disgustingly Resilient also works against mortal wounds which is a huge benefit.
Yes, Magnus can cast Weaver of Fates but Morty can cast Miasma of Pestilence which has a similar or better result depending on who is shooting at him.
This guy looks like an absolute beast and will definitely be around the same impact as Guilliman and Magnus.
Well I know about miasma - but if you are not going first - then you won't have opportunity to cast it.
And guess where all lascannons and overheated plasmas will go ? Also Morty doesn't have equvialent of changeling who helps Magnus to survive even when isnt going 1st.
Given that I think it's safe to say Magnus is ... the resilient one there. But then again maybe there is hidden gem like actually 4+ FNP for Mortarion - then i suppose it would be making huge difference.
And again it seems like you guys dont understand what is my problem. He may be worth his points and hype but not in way he should be . That is my issue. He is not supposed to be insane killer machine fluff-wise.
He is known to outlast his opponents. So as i mentioned - he may be as powerful/useful as Magnus/Guilliman and still look disapointing in my eyes. Not what i was expecting. Too much focus on offensive, not enough on resilience.
Swaping his S with T would be at least good start.
If you're going to include The Changling in Magnus' cost, why are.t allowed to do the same when we don't even have all the information yet?
Let's not forget that Epidemius and some teleporting Obliterators can give Mortarion some pretty tasty buffs and draw fire for him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think we need to review Steed characters.
Both Sorcerer and Lord are able to benefit from Herald aura. That means a Power Sword wounds Marines on a 3+ and Gravis on a 4+. That's not at all bad.
Both add 6+D6 to threat range. That applies to Psychic, Flamer or Melta, and also to melee.
Both get +1W and +1A. That means a Lord with MURDER SWORD is going to delete a 5W character if he doesn't miss with re-rollable 2+, and is much more able to catch the target. Decent candidate as guided missile to finish off many Lords of War? Certainly a frightening scarecrow. Maybe even try Warptime to take out an unharmed Warlord.
Lord's brilliant aura gets a reach buff from base size, and comparable relocatability with Jump Pack. Sorcerer's powers likewise benefit from reach and relocatability - this looks like a decent candidate for Death Hex to worry THSS teleporters.
I wanted to point out that there was a list posted in the NOVA thread in the General Discussion subforum that used Alpha Legion, but most importantly it used Arkos, who've I been saying is Faithless = Alpha Legion. Otherwise there's no point in using him just for the extra Command Point, so I wanted to look at him once again.
Not only is he a cheap option at 125 points, but he adds 1" to charge distances. That means Berserkers will be having a gay ol' time making it to the enemy. Not to mention that, because he has Alpha Legion and Aura, he's at -2 to hit. You can literally not be hit by shooting Orks and Conscripts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I wanted to point out that there was a list posted in the NOVA thread in the General Discussion subforum that used Alpha Legion, but most importantly it used Arkos, who've I been saying is Faithless = Alpha Legion.
That's not true though. The reason he's legal in that list is because an FaQ from FW gave him Alpha Legion in addition to The Faithless.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I wanted to point out that there was a list posted in the NOVA thread in the General Discussion subforum that used Alpha Legion, but most importantly it used Arkos, who've I been saying is Faithless = Alpha Legion.
That's not true though. The reason he's legal in that list is because an FaQ from FW gave him Alpha Legion in addition to The Faithless.
Nobody is going to buy him just for the additional command point because you might as well just get a Sorcerer instead.
lindsay40k wrote: Let's not forget that Epidemius and some teleporting Obliterators can give Mortarion some pretty tasty buffs and draw fire for him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think we need to review Steed characters.
Both Sorcerer and Lord are able to benefit from Herald aura. That means a Power Sword wounds Marines on a 3+ and Gravis on a 4+. That's not at all bad.
Both add 6+D6 to threat range. That applies to Psychic, Flamer or Melta, and also to melee.
Both get +1W and +1A. That means a Lord with MURDER SWORD is going to delete a 5W character if he doesn't miss with re-rollable 2+, and is much more able to catch the target. Decent candidate as guided missile to finish off many Lords of War? Certainly a frightening scarecrow. Maybe even try Warptime to take out an unharmed Warlord.
Lord's brilliant aura gets a reach buff from base size, and comparable relocatability with Jump Pack. Sorcerer's powers likewise benefit from reach and relocatability - this looks like a decent candidate for Death Hex to worry THSS teleporters.
I got a well painted juggerlord I would love to use. But flying daemon prince seems to beat it in so many ways. Sure, the DP is more expensive, but it is hittier, has more hp, has a much bigger reach, and if its non-khorn, it even has psychic powers. Either I go all the way cheap, get a foot lord with no upgrades just for the aura, or a go the full bore and get a flying DP. The only other in between that fills up a niche is the jump pack sorceror or lord but that's because I would have a very specific deep strike unit or units that I feel that absolutely needs to be supported by exact placement of a jump pack lord or sorceror.
Honestly I want an FAQ or Errata on whether steed characters get their Legion bonuses. I just think it's stupid silly they don't RAW. Plus, as mentioned above, the Prince is just hitting everything better and is getting their Legion bonuses too!
I was specifically thinking of Steed of Slaanesh - and another fringe benefit over Jump Pack occurs to me; not having FLY means that some enemy weapons and units won't benefit from anti-air bonuses.Very marginal, but there you go - still a great choice of MS wielder, though.
Yeah, Juggerlord is in a difficult place right now. I guess an Axe of Blind Rage or other relic is the best way to make our conversions somewhat viable.
Yeah, I'm kind of bummed out about my own Juggerlord. He was my main beatstick HQ in my 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin army, and now he's all but useless except perhaps in casual games. My problem with Daemon Princes is that both of mine have weapons other than talons, although my group is probably okay with me saying he's got double talons (that axe is just a messed-up looking talon, because Chaos).
I just hope my Khorne Daemon Prince does okay in a tournament I've got coming up, as I'm going to try him with the Talisman of Burning Blood as kind of a suicide unit. I'll move and advance with him and keep an allied bike sorcerer behind him. The Sorcerer will cast Diabolic Strength and Warptime on him, after which he will move and advance again. Thanks to the Talisman, he can then charge something and hopefully kill the crap out of it before he gets shot to pieces.
ZergSmasher wrote: Yeah, I'm kind of bummed out about my own Juggerlord. He was my main beatstick HQ in my 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin army, and now he's all but useless except perhaps in casual games. My problem with Daemon Princes is that both of mine have weapons other than talons, although my group is probably okay with me saying he's got double talons (that axe is just a messed-up looking talon, because Chaos).
I just hope my Khorne Daemon Prince does okay in a tournament I've got coming up, as I'm going to try him with the Talisman of Burning Blood as kind of a suicide unit. I'll move and advance with him and keep an allied bike sorcerer behind him. The Sorcerer will cast Diabolic Strength and Warptime on him, after which he will move and advance again. Thanks to the Talisman, he can then charge something and hopefully kill the crap out of it before he gets shot to pieces.
Thing to remember about princes is they can't be shot if they are the closest model.
Give them a guard of some rhinos with zerkers or other group in front absorb the shots as you get into combat.
My Slaanesh Prince tends to shred stuff when it gets into combat. Easily earns its points.
ZergSmasher wrote: Yeah, I'm kind of bummed out about my own Juggerlord. He was my main beatstick HQ in my 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin army, and now he's all but useless except perhaps in casual games. My problem with Daemon Princes is that both of mine have weapons other than talons, although my group is probably okay with me saying he's got double talons (that axe is just a messed-up looking talon, because Chaos).
I just hope my Khorne Daemon Prince does okay in a tournament I've got coming up, as I'm going to try him with the Talisman of Burning Blood as kind of a suicide unit. I'll move and advance with him and keep an allied bike sorcerer behind him. The Sorcerer will cast Diabolic Strength and Warptime on him, after which he will move and advance again. Thanks to the Talisman, he can then charge something and hopefully kill the crap out of it before he gets shot to pieces.
Thing to remember about princes is they can't be shot if they are the closest model.
Give them a guard of some rhinos with zerkers or other group in front absorb the shots as you get into combat.
My Slaanesh Prince tends to shred stuff when it gets into combat. Easily earns its points.
So, maybe I should switch my Khorne Prince with Talisman into a Slaanesh Prince with Elixir? I could do that, although I'd have to move him from the WE detachment to the AL one (which would be easy as I've already got enough other guys to fill the slots). Maybe I'll do that actually, as I can then throw another Smite out there or a different power maybe. I just kind of like the idea of a WE prince with talons having 10(!) attacks on the charge (4 base, 1 for being Khorne, 3 for double talons, 1 on charge for being WE, and 1 for Diabolic Strength) that are S9 and do 2 damage each, plus they hit on 2's with rerolls of 1's. I guess the Slaanesh version does basically the same thing plus he's a psyker. That's a sad commentary on Khorne princes...
Ive had pretty good luck with my Nurgle DP but im never sure how to kit him out power wise do i try give him Miasma to be a bit of a support where he can help others or have him be a speed freak with warp time or maybe even give the squad of zerkers that usually accompany him up the table in a rhino prescience so they really hack peeps to pieces.
Belakor is another great option since that -5ap is something that absolutely terrifies termies and if he drops strength and hex he can vaporise a whole heap of them in one turn pretty easily, or even chew through most of a landraider/ knight in one charge
I agree even drop his strength and make his auras a little less powerful but make him properly tanky, A DP with a few bits of armour here and there have a 3+ save so not being T8 or having a 2+ seems very strange for one of the tankiest primarchs in a termy heavy legion
Ubl1k wrote: Belakor is another great option since that -5ap is something that absolutely terrifies termies and if he drops strength and hex he can vaporise a whole heap of them in one turn pretty easily, or even chew through most of a landraider/ knight in one charge
Only problem here is Be'lakor doesn't have the Heretic Astartes keyword. So even though he can cast Diabolic Strength, he can't cast it on himself.
lindsay40k wrote: I was specifically thinking of Steed of Slaanesh - and another fringe benefit over Jump Pack occurs to me; not having FLY means that some enemy weapons and units won't benefit from anti-air bonuses.Very marginal, but there you go - still a great choice of MS wielder, though.
Yeah, Juggerlord is in a difficult place right now. I guess an Axe of Blind Rage or other relic is the best way to make our conversions somewhat viable.
A Slaanesh Lord on Steed w/ 2x Lightning Claws is 6 Attacks at ap-1 1d, and 2 at s4 ap- 1d with a 12" Move + Advance and Charge.
I'm very strongly considering using them, as they're quite good for 107 points.
Arch contaminator gives something CSM doesn't really have, which is a good way to boost wound rolls at range. Admittedly it's just for DG, and even then only a few units which already reroll ones, but it still seems useful. Depending on the new DG tank they might make a solid artillery/heavy support detachment.
A page or so ago the question was asked of why bother with a Dreadclaw when you could take a Kharybdis; when it comes to Helbrutes, both can carry only one. So if you want to deploy a Contemptor up close on the same first turn as a KaC drops off shock troops and gets Warptimed into the fray, DC is a cheaper option with less wasted space. In that case, the question is whether it's worth paying like 50% more to give it more endurance and two and a half assault cannon's worth of firepower, and making & transporting such a huge model for such a relatively modest passenger.
@Cephalobeard, might be a typo but you've understated the AP of Lightning Claws there.
What's the consensus on Heavy bolter Havocs for anti infantry and as an Alpha legion firebase? For just over 500 pts you can get a Chaos lord surrounded by 4 x 5 man havocs (16 HBolters). Rough calcs is 26 dead ork boyz / 18 Fire warriors / 13 marines. So effectively being able to wipe at least one, maybe one and a half opposing infantry squads a turn.
For slightly more pts I could get 3 x 5 man squads with Missile launchers for more flexibility ( reduced anti infantry - 15 dead boyz ). Bear in mind I plan to take 2 x 3 Obliterators for anti-tank, Alpha strike.
lindsay40k wrote: A page or so ago the question was asked of why bother with a Dreadclaw when you could take a Kharybdis; when it comes to Helbrutes, both can carry only one. So if you want to deploy a Contemptor up close on the same first turn as a KaC drops off shock troops and gets Warptimed into the fray, DC is a cheaper option with less wasted space. In that case, the question is whether it's worth paying like 50% more to give it more endurance and two and a half assault cannon's worth of firepower, and making & transporting such a huge model for such a relatively modest passenger.
I'd take a Dreadclaw for Helbrutes and a Kharybdis for 20 man units. I feel like that makes the most sense point for point when you add everything together. You aren't spending more on the Kharybdis for its toughness, you're spending it to be a fire magnet, and 20 man units need a fire magnet buddy more than a Contemptor does.
Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best.
And casting this on terminators seems even more stupid - they should be super tanky and most importantly after deep strike they will be probably the closest opponent anyway.
Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7".
Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bad as those above.
But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. ACTUALLY READ LAST PARAGRAPH. It's weak. Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc. This is actually best trait , but we still don't know about 3 others.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.
Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.
Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Warlord traits are okay - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.
Edit 1: Did some math and FNP 4+ is inferior to CSM general trait of +1W and yet another 6+ FNP. 4+ FNP stops 50%(not Mortals!) of damage instead of 33%, BUT 6+ FNP after 5+ FNP gives you roughly 44% damage stopped. (including mortal wounds). But then it gives +1 Wound aswell.
So I would still take CSM codex warlord trait ... as it's ... better. Funny isn't it ? More like Pathethic ...
Morty is confirmed to have arch contaminator, which isn't bad if you load up a bunch of melee PM or the new deathshroud and run them up the field together. Typhus got lord of plagues or whatever it was.
Also, we recently had it confirmed that there are 15 new datasheets in the codex, 7 of which are characters, leaving 8 more. Given we know 3-4 (two variants of terminator and 1-2 variants on the plagueburst crawler), that means we could still have plague havocs of some description.
If we do, I imagine they'd just be normal plague marines without he melee options and able to equip everyone with a gun. Also maybe a heavy version of the plague launcher, I can hope.
Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best. - Cloud of flies seems like a great stratagem to me... 1CP to basically make one of your units extremely hard to even damage for a turn, is something you would use on a expensive elite unit that you want to keep on the table for as long as possible. I thought poxwalkers were the cheap bubblewrap unit? Why would you even think about using this on them?
Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7". - I agree it's situational, but it's a stratagem you can just keep in your pocket for the day when you have a unit that manages to maneouver so that you're in range of 3/4/5 enemy units. And when that happens you can just use it, and potentially do a bunch of mortal wounds. And as nurgle, you might even cause some units to lose their leadership tests causing even more losses.
Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bat as those above. - This seems like it would be useful on any vehicle. If you get attacked in melee and your vehicle gets destroyed, you have the option to force the explosion. Situational but not bad, and a fun option.
But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.
Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.
Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Quiet powerful Warlord traits though - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.
I thought it said something in that article about Death Guard princes having Disgustingly Resilient. Normal CSM princes, even Nurgle ones, do not have that; only the Nurgle ones from Chaos Daemons do. Maybe Death Guard princes will have a leg up over their CSM brethren now.
ZergSmasher wrote: I thought it said something in that article about Death Guard princes having Disgustingly Resilient. Normal CSM princes, even Nurgle ones, do not have that; only the Nurgle ones from Chaos Daemons do. Maybe Death Guard princes will have a leg up over their CSM brethren now.
If they do, I'll be pretty hyped for the 4++ Thousand Sons daemon princes will get, heheh.
Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best. - Cloud of flies seems like a great stratagem to me... 1CP to basically make one of your units extremely hard to even damage for a turn, is something you would use on a expensive elite unit that you want to keep on the table for as long as possible. I thought poxwalkers were the cheap bubblewrap unit? Why would you even think about using this on them?
Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7". - I agree it's situational, but it's a stratagem you can just keep in your pocket for the day when you have a unit that manages to maneouver so that you're in range of 3/4/5 enemy units. And when that happens you can just use it, and potentially do a bunch of mortal wounds. And as nurgle, you might even cause some units to lose their leadership tests causing even more losses.
Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bat as those above. - This seems like it would be useful on any vehicle. If you get attacked in melee and your vehicle gets destroyed, you have the option to force the explosion. Situational but not bad, and a fun option.
But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.
Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.
Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Quiet powerful Warlord traits though - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.
Name this infantry unit where Cloud of flies has any application. And at the same time is worth 1 CP which can be used for something like "Veterans of Long War". Don't get me wrong this stratagem would be super good if we still had access to things like Obliterators/Havocs.
As it stands now - it's useless - infantry we will have is :
1. Poxwalkers - we both agreed they are there to take damage not to be protected.
2. Plague Marines - semi viable option - and again they are tough by default . Actually you pay royally 6 points over normal CSM to get this extra 1T and FNP so they should be tanky - no need to cover them even more. Especially that they deal pathetic damage compared to all other 3 cult marines.
3. New DG terminators - idk how to even benefit from this stratagem on them as they will probably be coming via deep strike - so they will be close to opponent hence he will still be able to shoot them. And same like with plague marines i don't think guys with 5T 2+/4++/5+++ and 2W (this is to be expected if they are cataphractii armor) - would even want to take someone else to take bullets for them. THEY ARE THE TANKS THERE.
4. Deathshroud Terminators - same as above.
5.Cultists ... oh come on - 4 points per dude - wont waste CP on them.
So unless we have access to other infantry than those 5 units - then I just can't see merit of having this stratagem.
Another thing if you cast that on one of plague marines - opponent will just shoot another. It's not like you will have just one unit of infantry :(
ZergSmasher wrote: I thought it said something in that article about Death Guard princes having Disgustingly Resilient. Normal CSM princes, even Nurgle ones, do not have that; only the Nurgle ones from Chaos Daemons do. Maybe Death Guard princes will have a leg up over their CSM brethren now.
If they do, I'll be pretty hyped for the 4++ Thousand Sons daemon princes will get, heheh.
According to my battlescribe demon princes benefit from alleignance. Though it may not be accurate.
Then again if they mentioned that it will improve princes FNP - we are safe to assume they have it.
But again as simple math proves - this warlord trait is inferior to CSM 6+ on top of FNP and +1W.
Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best. - Cloud of flies seems like a great stratagem to me... 1CP to basically make one of your units extremely hard to even damage for a turn, is something you would use on a expensive elite unit that you want to keep on the table for as long as possible. I thought poxwalkers were the cheap bubblewrap unit? Why would you even think about using this on them?
Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7". - I agree it's situational, but it's a stratagem you can just keep in your pocket for the day when you have a unit that manages to maneouver so that you're in range of 3/4/5 enemy units. And when that happens you can just use it, and potentially do a bunch of mortal wounds. And as nurgle, you might even cause some units to lose their leadership tests causing even more losses.
Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bat as those above. - This seems like it would be useful on any vehicle. If you get attacked in melee and your vehicle gets destroyed, you have the option to force the explosion. Situational but not bad, and a fun option.
But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.
Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.
Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Quiet powerful Warlord traits though - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.
Name this infantry unit where Cloud of flies has any application. And at the same time is worth 1 CP which can be used for something like "Veterans of Long War". Don't get me wrong this stratagem would be super good if we still had access to things like Obliterators/Havocs.
As it stands now - it's useless - infantry we will have is :
1. Poxwalkers - we both agreed they are there to take damage not to be protected.
2. Plague Marines - semi viable option - and again they are tough by default . Actually you pay royally 6 points over normal CSM to get this extra 1T and FNP so they should be tanky - no need to cover them even more. Especially that they deal pathetic damage compared to all other 3 cult marines.
3. New DG terminators - idk how to even benefit from this stratagem on them as they will probably be coming via deep strike - so they will be close to opponent hence he will still be able to shoot them. And same like with plague marines i don't think guys with 5T 2+/4++/5+++ and 2W (this is to be expected if they are cataphractii armor) - would even want to take someone else to take bullets for them. THEY ARE THE TANKS THERE.
4. Deathshroud Terminators - same as above.
5.Cultists ... oh come on - 4 points per dude - wont waste CP on them.
So unless we have access to other infantry than those 5 units - then I just can't see merit of having this stratagem.
Another thing if you cast that on one of plague marines - opponent will just shoot another. It's not like you will have just one unit of infantry :(
Well why wouldn't it be useful on terminators? There are a lot of units in the game right now that can lay down D2 fire (which is why Ork Bikers have gone from great units in 7th to worthless in 8th), and so even with all their saves you might be in a position where your expensive terminator squad has been left in the line of fire. While they're likely to be the nearest unit to -some- of the enemy, they wont be the nearest unit to all the enemy units (unless you're running a pure gunline army in one corner, and a lone terminator squad in the enemy's lines... which would be a bad idea). So yeh, it's not a stratagem you'd use in every round of every game, but it's a nice tool to have in the box.
It sounds like you wanted stratagems that were always super useful and powerful, but that's exactly what we -dont- want. That would put Chaos in the realms of girlyman and scion spam. I'd rather have a wide variety of stratagems, each of them useful in different situations. Which seems to be what these guys are getting. I hope for more of the same for thousand sons in the future.
About Cloud of flies again - some armies like cacaphony obliterators would welcome this stratagem very kindly ! But sadly we don't have access to long range support infantry - the only really possible benefactor of this stratagem.
You kinda misunderstand me there. Those DG stratagems, actually all of them are very situational and on top of that no so powerful even in nice setup. Let me give you examples of always strong stratagems for all CSM - and for those you want to save CP, because no doubt you will benefit heavily from using them.
1. Chaos familiar - well if you want to run pure DG, but get access to juicy powers like warptime/prescience/death hex ? Well and it cost you only 1 CP ! Always useful.
2. Veteran of long war - you know all too well how this can be powerful - and it's not situational at all. Always useful. Guess what 1 CP 3. Daemonforge - oh my god one of my favourites. Suddenly Defiler with eiter his powerful ranged weapons or close combat ones - gets SIGNIFICANTLY better . 1 CP aswell.
All of those stratagems are avaible to all CSM and just simply better and less situational (except for last one if you don't field daemon engines - like you would not field bloat drones - with new weapons they benefit a lot and/or now godlike Defiler)
I'm not even mentioning universal stratagems like 2 CP interrupting combat, rerolling seize initiative .
And really you will be most of the time rolling only ~~6 CP - so tell me how you can even consider using those 3 DG stratagems at all ...
Now i still have my hopes up - as there are still 3 more. And those may be actually useful.
To sum up what is in my mind - I would be okay with those stratagems if I had like 9-10 CPs like Ultrasmurfs often have. But that is not the case. I cannot casually throw away 3 CP to get average 1 mortal wound per unit within 7" - that is ridiculous.
I just plain and simple can't ... even if i deal randomly ~~~3 mortal wounds ... still not worth it. 3 mortal wounds is nothing vs used 3 CPs.
Truth be told only explosion stratagem can be nice - and you gotta run some expensive vehicles in first place who deal any reasonable damage after exploding ...
Now some stuff like this Relic Plate or warlord trait where you can reroll all wound rolls for plague weapons - those are not automatically inferior to CSM variants. Actually plate can be possibly damn OP on Nurgle Daemon Prince indeed.
So not everything is bad.
But yeah I'm far from being impressed by what we got now.
Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bad as those above.
Uh oh, someone hasn't memorized his FW index! Many FW units have 'containment breach' rule which causes D3 (D6 against psykers) mortal wounds when it explodes. And anyway if you get your Dreadclaw or KAC other vehicle in the middle of enemy you can generate goods amounts of mortal wounds from there. Of course you are not going to clear hordes with that, but it's gonna be efficient against characters and vehicles.
Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bad as those above.
Uh oh, someone hasn't memorized his FW index! Many FW units have 'containment breach' rule which causes D3 (D6 against psykers) mortal wounds when it explodes. And anyway if you get your Dreadclaw or KAC other vehicle in the middle of enemy you can generate goods amounts of mortal wounds from there. Of course you are not going to clear hordes with that, but it's gonna be efficient against characters and vehicles.
Yeah I'm not expert on FW models. You got me there. But neither i'm rich enough to get those hehe. Not poor either. But still.
And again even if you explode then you may end up wasting your own army even more. As it is DG army seems to be really focused in getting close to opponent. So high chance that your Vehicle will have company of your own units nearby when it goes boom.
I know the Death Guard codex isn't out yet, but the stock Chaos minis from the starter box comes in at about 100 under 1000pts/50PL, and I was wondering if anyone has taking this against a more well prepared 1000pt list and how it faired against that
takonite wrote: I know the Death Guard codex isn't out yet, but the stock Chaos minis from the starter box comes in at about 100 under 1000pts/50PL, and I was wondering if anyone has taking this against a more well prepared 1000pt list and how it faired against that
Nowhere 1000 points , even before point values will go down with new codex for sure. As it stands it's
It's exactly 841 points . Probably will be worth in points around 750 when codex will hit. LoC alone will drop 50 points of fat hopefully ... as now his cost is ridiculous.
As combat value of this army goes. Against gunline you will fail horribly and against armies who like to brawl you can actually perform well. Overall against horde armies both poxwalkers who can reinforce themselves against weak infantry and stuff like plague wind - this army seems to be decent.
this starter Box army is inconsistent - they are close combat specialists but have hard time to actually make it there . If you drop your lord to opponent - he will be alone there as everything except for excellent Bloat drone - won't get to enemy lines fast enough. And if you decide to footslog your Lord ... no let's not even consider this. His Movement is 4 and his advance is halved so not even noxious blightbringer will help.
For same reason Typhus supporting Pox Walkers is terrible tactic. You will need like 3 turns at least to reach combat with guy who costs some points and ... guess what ? Is close combat monster . Better deepstrike him with hopefully soon avaible DG termies.
So answer is simple : you won't beat anyone who has any half decent 1000 points army.
But then again with this army you should be fighting 750 point opponents.
Yeah, typhus and deathshroud are two units I'd actually consider loading into a land raider, because deepstrike isn't very reliable for them and they have no guns with enough range to fire before attempting the charge.
Hmmm, I must be missing out on something. I personally think cloud of flies is great. (unless I am reading it wrong).
It reads : use this strategem during your movement phase, Select a Death guard infantry, Until the start of your next movement phase, enemy models can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target."
This strategem looks great. This essentially forces the opponent to focus all shooting on an infantry unit you choose. Opponent cannot shoot anything else unless he kills this unit. It dictates what he is allowed to shoot and not to shoot. This means you can take a very tanky infantry unit, cast cloud of pestilence on it for -1 to hit. And then said tanky unit can tank all the shooting the opponent has. I am sure there will be some stuff in your army that you would rather not get shot at. And doesn't this strategem prevent that? What if you have hellbrutes and defilers in your army? Those are vulnerable to heavy support weapons. But now opponent has to focus all his heavy support weapons on that big group of plague marines instead (which are all one wound) because of this strategem, and they are -1 to hit from cloud.
And putrid detonation. If you hellbrute gets destroyed in combat with tons of troops surrounding it. Use this and it goes nova! What's not to like about this strategem. I have seen tons of battle reports where one vehicle exploing did more damage than the vehicle itself! Think about all the Gulliman parking lots and Azreal parking lots out there, where opponent loves to cluster everyting together. One exploding vehicle in there does a ton of damage. And its all mortal wounds too! Deathguard even has a unit that is meant for this strategem... the bloat drone! It flies, and it is meant to get up close and personal because of its flamer weapons. Now, when it is on say 1 or 2 hp, you charge it into the bigggest clump of enemies you can find and use this for a 100% explosion when it dies. Or just use this on a Rhino that is near death. (Or charge it into Gulliman). lol
Right now, CSM doesn't really have a good way to handle punish parking lots. our opponents can freely clump together and get maximum benefit from powerful auras. DeathGuard looks like it is designed specifically to counter such armies. Its auras that do mortal wounds punish you heavily if you clump up to the max together. I haven't done the math yet. But if you take Mortarion, fly him into gulliman or Azreal parking lot, and activate all the possible strategems and what not that inflicts mortal wounds on all those near to Mortarion (plus his lower wound and his aura) ... seriously, I think the carnage will be breath taking. lol
Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(
Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.
Fact is this would be awesome stratagem if we had squishy and deadly units that are not first line (because stratagem only protects as long as they are not first in line !) like havocs or obliterators (though may not be squishy still die to lascannons and plasmas).
But surprise we don't have and even if you take them - then you lose DG keyword and long can use this stratagem.
Some of you folks thinks its coincidence that we lost access to certain stuff like bikers/havocs/oblits - well it's starting to show why.
Because if we could oblits then you just drop them 24" from your opponent in unit of 6 (max?) - unleash destruction and they cannot shoot back.
But as it is now we are last army that benefit from this actually very strong stratagem - because we don't have any real benefactors.
Sadly as i was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical equivalents of havocs.
It makes them UNABLE to target said unit, not unable to target any other unit.
Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."
RAI though is obviously meant to be making the unit unable to be shot. The other way is interesting though, as you could force the enemy to shoot at a chaff unit, wasting their shots for a turn.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(
Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.
Once again you read wrong - you can only target infantry. He is flying monster. So yeah he will still die to those heavy weapons.
Edit i just realised this stratagem is even more useless than i was thinking. It's horrible.
Let's read it again - you can use it at start of movement phase. I though you can use it at start of any shooting phase.
Well fk me - now if you go 2nd you won't even have any chance to benefit from this stratagem.
I though it couldn't be any worse - but hey it can.
So in fact if you go 2nd then they are free too unleash as many shells at anything they want. GG
zzz... ok. Darn, I forgot Mortarion is not considered infantry. :(
Now we have to see what kind of special DG units deathguard gets. Because we know they will likely get a special terminator unit. I guess we have to see if its worth using this strategem on a ten man unit of special DG terminators. I mean, terminators are tanky, but they still go down with enough heavy weapon focus.
Huh. 5+++ & 6+++ really is 4/9. Funny, it feels like it should be lower.
I think part of the DG Stratagems is the threat they pose. Yeah, you might not build an army around kamikaze Predators, but the fact that you can punish enemy units for CC kills is going to make them very wary of sending three squads at a vehicle to take turns with their sergeants' power fists.
Come to think of it, kamikaze Helbrutes might not be a bad idea. Really get in there, punching as much stuff as you can and forcing the enemy to run from the ticking time bombs. And we know a DG Zangiefbrute is a fantastic model! They'll probably be given higher priority to take out before reaching enemy lines, so their utility as a Distraction Carnifex is improved - whether or not you actually intend to use the Stratagem at all. What's that line, the best deterrent is one you don't need to use?
Defilers are pretty decent now. And quite tanky, so good chance of getting into close combat. Casting putrid detonation on a defiler when it dies has a certain appeal. Especially considering how big the defiler is, you could probably have it touch more than one unit before it dies by clever positioning.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(
Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.
Once again you read wrong - you can only target infantry. He is flying monster. So yeah he will still die to those heavy weapons.
Edit i just realised this stratagem is even more useless than i was thinking. It's horrible.
Let's read it again - you can use it at start of movement phase. I though you can use it at start of any shooting phase.
Well fk me - now if you go 2nd you won't even have any chance to benefit from this stratagem.
I though it couldn't be any worse - but hey it can.
So in fact if you go 2nd then they are free too unleash as many shells at anything they want. GG
Not sure why you're so down on a release that hasn't even happened yet man. There's a lot of stuff to be excited about. While it's true that the optimal units for cloud of flies (double shooting oblits, noise marines, zerkers) aren't able to be targeted, the ability to make any infantry unit immune to shooting (assuming you know how to screen) is actually a really big deal. Walk up any close combat unit of your choosing. It'll cost you 2 CP but they will get to the opponent's lines completely untouched. Totally worth it every game. Or pick your favorite shooting unit (which who knows what options we'll have access to with the new units). As many turns as you'd like, complete immunity to shooting. Absolutely amazing.
The auto exploding vehicle is also excellent. That's a lot of mortal wounds.
And can we please, please stop the "Mortarion will get blown off the board turn 1" talk? It's embarrassingly fallacious. Overall, it seems that Mortarion will be a solid addition to any army (and with the talk of his weapon being a premier horde killer, I'm excited since hordes are totally the meta right now). I doubt a pure death guard army will be top tier competitive, but I don't see them struggling to compete at the tournament level like they previously did. Death Guard is looking really solid, especially if you don't mind having a second regular CSM detachment. I believe that does entitle the Death Guard units to using generic CSM stratagems, though that could probably use an FAQ. All the death guard would really want is Veterans of the Long War. And don't forget that a generic CSM sorcerer can cast stuff from the regular CSM dex on them (give me that Miasma of pestilence).
lindsay40k wrote: Huh. 5+++ & 6+++ really is 4/9. Funny, it feels like it should be lower.
I think part of the DG Stratagems is the threat they pose. Yeah, you might not build an army around kamikaze Predators, but the fact that you can punish enemy units for CC kills is going to make them very wary of sending three squads at a vehicle to take turns with their sergeants' power fists.
Come to think of it, kamikaze Helbrutes might not be a bad idea. Really get in there, punching as much stuff as you can and forcing the enemy to run from the ticking time bombs. And we know a DG Zangiefbrute is a fantastic model! They'll probably be given higher priority to take out before reaching enemy lines, so their utility as a Distraction Carnifex is improved - whether or not you actually intend to use the Stratagem at all. What's that line, the best deterrent is one you don't need to use?
correct 5++ & 6++ is 4/9 and on top of that you get 1 Wound. Not only that but you get 4/9 against all wounds including mortal. Where our new trait ... says for unknown reason that it doesn't help with MW.
But i'm just to prove to you guys (if i fail at math - sucks since i have master degree at it after all) - that our stratagems and traits are far from "incredible".
I will go even further - Mortarion aura of destruction - let's talk about facts. First of all damage is no given - it's 50%-50%. So it may aswell not go off at all.
On top of that expected value per unit in range is just 1 mortal wound - yes that is correct 1 Boy dead often ... that is if those units don't have any FNP there !!
How is that even comparable to Guilliman aura to reroll everything ? No doubt that will dish out more damage - and you don't need to kamikaze your primarch.
I feel more and more disappointed as i'm coming back to hobby and I found those godly looking DG miniatures . But DG suck so far and the more info they reveal - even worse they become.
And let me tell you that I don't consider everything bad that i like in order to get buffs.
Another army i consider (although i got some DG now already ;x) is Thousand Sons. And damn they are incredible. Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT and dish way out more damage than Plague Marines . Scarab occult terminators are near invicible to any damage 1 weapons even those with negative AP !! On top of that they have tons of dakka with those brilliant inferno combi bolters.
Magnus is superpowerful too. Ahriman, tzaangors ... they sure don't have many units but they are all DECENT.
I will wait with judgement till DG codex drops. But looks like we are paying gigantic tax per any unit in DG army for disgustingly resilent while we don't get any real offensive punch in world of alpha strike ...
So sad about it, can't even picture myself not buying/painting those DG termies and Mortarion :((. But i won't take gimped army that cannot beat anyone who actually tries :(.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Ah I see now. I was reading it wrong. So, it doesn't force them to shoot that unit. Sorry my bad. :(
Well, people were so afraid that Mortarion would be shot to death in one turn by heavy weapons. Now you can spend one CP and make Mortarion immune to shooting.
Once again you read wrong - you can only target infantry. He is flying monster. So yeah he will still die to those heavy weapons.
Edit i just realised this stratagem is even more useless than i was thinking. It's horrible.
Let's read it again - you can use it at start of movement phase. I though you can use it at start of any shooting phase.
Well fk me - now if you go 2nd you won't even have any chance to benefit from this stratagem.
I though it couldn't be any worse - but hey it can.
So in fact if you go 2nd then they are free too unleash as many shells at anything they want. GG
Not sure why you're so down on a release that hasn't even happened yet man. There's a lot of stuff to be excited about. While it's true that the optimal units for cloud of flies (double shooting oblits, noise marines, zerkers) aren't able to be targeted, the ability to make any infantry unit immune to shooting (assuming you know how to screen) is actually a really big deal. Walk up any close combat unit of your choosing. It'll cost you 2 CP but they will get to the opponent's lines completely untouched. Totally worth it every game. Or pick your favorite shooting unit (which who knows what options we'll have access to with the new units). As many turns as you'd like, complete immunity to shooting. Absolutely amazing.
The auto exploding vehicle is also excellent. That's a lot of mortal wounds.
And can we please, please stop the "Mortarion will get blown off the board turn 1" talk? It's embarrassingly fallacious. Overall, it seems that Mortarion will be a solid addition to any army (and with the talk of his weapon being a premier horde killer, I'm excited since hordes are totally the meta right now). I doubt a pure death guard army will be top tier competitive, but I don't see them struggling to compete at the tournament level like they previously did. Death Guard is looking really solid, especially if you don't mind having a second regular CSM detachment. I believe that does entitle the Death Guard units to using generic CSM stratagems, though that could probably use an FAQ. All the death guard would really want is Veterans of the Long War. And don't forget that a generic CSM sorcerer can cast stuff from the regular CSM dex on them (give me that Miasma of pestilence).
You are completely right, but i'm purist (hahaha sounds awkward when talking about Nurgle). Seems like DG when supported or mixed with others can perform well - i'm sure. But sadly as you mentioned pure DG seems like poor idea.
Ok let's talk about positives.
Nurgle Daemon prince with 2x malefic talons + new plate + CSMFNP sounds like some crazy combo. What we get :
9Wounds (just 1 under being targetable by lascannons)
6 Toughness - very solid
2+/5++ with reflecting mortal wounds when you save !!
5+++ / 6+++ stoping ~~ 44% damage including mortal wounds !!
On top of that with or without wings he fast , strong and 7 attacks combined with warp bolter aura to reroll 1's this guy sounds like total MVP.
Ah i forgot he is psyker on top of that. Total Steal and just makes lord of contagion look like total joke even more.
For sure will take 1... if not 2 actually. Though 2nd wont get those relics/trait ;/.
Let's wait until the whole DG codex comes out first and see. sometimes, all you need is one amazing strategem or psychic power or unit and then everything changes. There are still strategems they haven't shown. Some psychic powers not shown yet, and also some units not shown either. Maybe those plague bleacher like tanks are really really good? Or the new DG terminators? Or some unit they haven't shown yet.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Let's wait until the whole DG codex comes out first and see. sometimes, all you need is one amazing strategem or psychic power or unit and then everything changes. There are still strategems they haven't shown. Some psychic powers not shown yet, and also some units not shown either. Maybe those plague bleacher like tanks are really really good? Or the new DG terminators? Or some unit they haven't shown yet.
Haha you are right, i'm bitching cuz i'm tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hyped for those DGs.
Ok they underperform as of now but we still got crapton of hidden stratagems/legion traits/warlord traits/relics/psychic powers and units ... I may aswell not run units i don't like now - pox & plague marine and just go for some fancy vanguard termicide ).
Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,
Kinda sad that since we don't have bikers and our iconic "dread" is Bloat drone - I would prefer it to be affected by Legion trait - in place of our non-existent bikers. Because lets face it we all love new bloat drone - it's lovely. I'm really curious about 2 other weapons for CC and long range.
As of DG trait I have no clue what it can be, but I hope it won't be rerolling 1's on FNP. That would be lame as no bikers or brutes could benefit from it in first place.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,
Kinda sad that since we don't have bikers and our iconic "dread" is Bloat drone - I would prefer it to be affected by Legion trait - in place of our non-existent bikers. Because lets face it we all love new bloat drone - it's lovely. I'm really curious about 2 other weapons for CC and long range.
As of DG trait I have no clue what it can be, but I hope it won't be rerolling 1's on FNP. That would be lame as no bikers or brutes could benefit from it in first place.
I haven't looked at many of the leaks of the DG codex yet, have they shown bikers/helbrute rules that show they don't get FNP? I thought everything in the DG codex got Disgustingly Resilient.
If not, then the legion trait may be something like "All infanty, bikers and helbrutes in a DG detachment gain disgustingly resilient."
Niiru wrote: Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."
But... but... English... not how works it...
I can only eat ice cream if it is frozen. <-- implies the ice cream must be cold to be eaten
If it is frozen, I can only eat ice cream. <-- implies my food selections are limited to junk food
Sometimes it works either way but not always and that's why you can't just switch things around like that.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,
Kinda sad that since we don't have bikers and our iconic "dread" is Bloat drone - I would prefer it to be affected by Legion trait - in place of our non-existent bikers. Because lets face it we all love new bloat drone - it's lovely. I'm really curious about 2 other weapons for CC and long range.
As of DG trait I have no clue what it can be, but I hope it won't be rerolling 1's on FNP. That would be lame as no bikers or brutes could benefit from it in first place.
I haven't looked at many of the leaks of the DG codex yet, have they shown bikers/helbrute rules that show they don't get FNP? I thought everything in the DG codex got Disgustingly Resilient.
If not, then the legion trait may be something like "All infanty, bikers and helbrutes in a DG detachment gain disgustingly resilient."
It was hinted that Disgustingly Resilient is not legion trait.
But on the other hand it would be really nice if anything fielded in battle forged DG detachment actually got this FNP. We lost access to really many units normal CSM can take, so some compensation would be welcome.
Hell yeah that would make some units like possessed and helbrutes pretty good.
But i wouldn't count on that sadly ;/. Good things don't happen to Nurgle.
On side note I find it weird that those Nurgle models look splendid and beautiful, but in fact their rules are bloated and roted to core . Don't judge book by it's cover HAHAAHHAAHAHHAAHHAHA.
mario, you keep saying you are going to reserve judgement until the codex drops. But there is so much judgement in what you are laying out...
Something to consider. In 8th edition, models drop off the board much faster than in previous editions. What makes Death Guard special is that they are not going to do that, at least not as fast. From what we know about the new Codex, the point seems to be that DG just don't die easily.
Not sure what you were expecting, but this seems to be an attrition army. It's totally fine to say you don't like such a thing, but I don't see where the rules are all that bad considering the nature of the force. The stratagems are no better or worse than what other armies have, same with the special rules.
techsoldaten wrote: mario, you keep saying you are going to reserve judgement until the codex drops. But there is so much judgement in what you are laying out...
Something to consider. In 8th edition, models drop off the board much faster than in previous editions. What makes Death Guard special is that they are not going to do that, at least not as fast. From what we know about the new Codex, the point seems to be that DG just don't die easily.
Not sure what you were expecting, but this seems to be an attrition army. It's totally fine to say you don't like such a thing, but I don't see where the rules are all that bad considering the nature of the force. The stratagems are no better or worse than what other armies have, same with the special rules.
Ok indeed i post a bit too much of recent. But my point is they are not that resilent at all. And you have to pay VERY HEAVILY for extra resilence. When others just can field more bodies instead ... Who happen to be doing more damage aswell.
Good example what i'm saying is plague marine - 19 points (used to be 21 points ...) - improved resilience but that guy is still just 1 swing in CC, and simple bolter. Fact is you can just get 3 CSM Marines for your 2 plague Marines. It will be equally hard to kill them and they just do 50% more damage plain and simple. Idk how is that fair, also it helps to fill troop tax much easier aswell. This gets even more dire when you compare them to primaris marines who cost same per model but get 2 wounds , MUCH better gun and twice as many attacks ... 2 wounds beat 1 wound even with T5 and FNP. Last but not least all those mentioned marines have movement of 6 compared to Plague Marines 5 - rendering them as assault unit aswell unless with expensive transport.
And here I can pass final judgement as plague marines full value and stats were updated in recent CSM codex.
So to wrap it up : yeah DG units are more resilient but at same time way more expensive so in fact it's as easy to table them as anyone else- as example with plague marine vs csm marine proves. At same time they don't pack punch at all. This is why i'm concerned.
So idk what war attrition means if you don't have anything going for you.
To show you what balanced and solid cult marine looks and it's priced as it should be is Rubricae Marine :
1. Very resilient against 1 damage attacks - and those usually are aimed at your troops, when bigger guns go for Magnus/Vehicles/Other heavy stuff.
2. Even against bigger guns they still hold on 5+ invu when such plague marine is striped to no armor against helblaster shoot.
3. And most importantly along extra resilience they also hit like a truck with -2 AP bolters.
For DG units we get random +1T and FNP and suddenly price goes up 50% out of nowhere. So yeah sounds like gak :(.
You have to understand we are waiting for codex from people who put original prices in mini book for DG like that: Bloat drone - 206 (my God ...) , LoC 184 (hohoho) , plague marines - 21 points ( yep no mistake 8 points more than normal CSM for what ?). So yeah i have my faith shattered as for now.
Can you really trust when someone charges you for FNP 50% or more compared to equivalents without ? I don't :(.
All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.
Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.
All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.
Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.
Ok lets wait for codex and chapters approved. Maybe you are right, that stuff may not be balanced now but can get better - like CSM codex shows.
I gotta stick with DG since i just like fluff and just style of this faction along with fantastic models .
Screw it ... maybe winning is not everything . Though would be nice bonus .
All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.
Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.
Well, basically at 19 points a PM isn't actually any tougher than a normal CSM. Toughness 5 and DR result in roughly a 50% increase in durability, and the model costs roughly 50% more. What PM's actually get it is the ability to load up with more wargear than a normal CSM, making them more expensive units with higher firepower and some startlingly cheap weapon options.
Generally this a problem you saw magnified even worse for index DG, they were priced such that they weren't any more durable than other models for their points, often were less durable (PM were less durable than CSM squads for their points). Sometimes they'd have other advantages, sometimes they wouldn't.
Seeing them put PM at 19 makes me think they've admitted there was a problem but are being conservative about fixing it (19 ppm is the very outer range of acceptable pricing imo). Even that seemed an odd price when they were elites, only really palatable for troop PMimo. So I'm still thinking the issue will exist in the codex. Not as bad perhaps, but I think it'll still be a thing.
All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.
Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.
Well, basically at 19 points a PM isn't actually any tougher than a normal CSM. Toughness 5 and DR result in roughly a 50% increase in durability, and the model costs roughly 50% more. What PM's actually get it is the ability to load up with more wargear than a normal CSM, making them more expensive units with higher firepower and some startlingly cheap weapon options.
Generally this a problem you saw magnified even worse for index DG, they were priced such that they weren't any more durable than other models for their points, often were less durable (PM were less durable than CSM squads for their points). Sometimes they'd have other advantages, sometimes they wouldn't.
Seeing them put PM at 19 makes me think they've admitted there was a problem but are being conservative about fixing it (19 ppm is the very outer range of acceptable pricing imo). Even that seemed an odd price when they were elites, only really palatable for troop PMimo. So I'm still thinking the issue will exist in the codex. Not as bad perhaps, but I think it'll still be a thing.
Honestly I just want Plague Marines to have 2 attacks again without having to give up the Bolter.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I just want Plague Marines to have 2 attacks again without having to give up the Bolter
Can I ask why? Just a fluff thing or wanting continuity?
I ask because I think that'd actually make them less useful, unless they stayed the same price which I don't consider likely. As it is, you can kit them out as melee specialists, ranged specialists, or a generalist build. Giving them two attacks base and the corresponding price increase honestly just prevents them from acting as a proper ranged unit and might mess up their really efficiently priced melee options.
Honestly, 1-2 bolters are fairly useless. Give a couple flails or axe+knife if you want some melee power on the unit, it's more than enough to compensate for one attack on the other models.
If you were still wondering, the Fire Raptor is a beast: I used it today against an Ork player with a Nurgle Sorcerer for -1 to hit and my opponent couldn't actually shoot at it because he was BS5+. I did kind of feel sorry for him till he blasted my new, painted up cultists off the board, such a crime could not be forgiven (especially when I had a unit of my old ugly looking cultists right next to them).
As soon as you get the -2 to hit the Fire Raptor is an untouchable fire magnet: your opponent needs to fire at it but they can't hit it.
If you were still wondering, the Fire Raptor is a beast: I used it today against an Ork player with a Nurgle Sorcerer for -1 to hit and my opponent couldn't actually shoot at it because he was BS5+. I did kind of feel sorry for him till he blasted my new, painted up cultists off the board, such a crime could not be forgiven (especially when I had a unit of my old ugly looking cultists right next to them).
As soon as you get the -2 to hit the Fire Raptor is an untouchable fire magnet: your opponent needs to fire at it but they can't hit it.
Yeah. I'm feeling like it's not too shabby. Without a natural Inv save, though, a 362pt Flyer feels pretty dangerous in a world where it can be killed in 3 lucky lascannon shots with zero defense.
I also hear they're absolute abominations to build, but thats a separate topic.
Try a Stormbird. You have to assemble the parts to assemble after treating them to make sure they fit first. It's cheaper and better to just use a Lego one.
So actually if GW wanted - they could give us nice ranged stuff if they wanted and fluff wise also accurate.
Like equivalent for removed havocs/oblits - and still in theme of DG.
"Led by a Space Marine Sergeant, Destroyer Squads were most typically equipped with Missile Launchers armed with Rad Missiles or Volkite Serpenta. They also commonly carried Phosphex Bombs, Rad Grenades, and Melta bombs.[1] To better rain death upon their foes, they were sometimes equipped with Jump Packs.[3]"
Melta bombs/phosphex bombs/rad missiles ? Sounds like pure DG thing.
mrhappyface wrote: I most certainly didn't break both sides of the fuselage when putting it together and have to fix it with green stuff...
Yeah. It's a lovely model, but I can't help but have PTSD from building Three Y'Vahra, let alone a giant plane.
But once you've got through the few hours it takes to put it together, the pay off is worth it... Only a few bits have needed to be re-glued since then...
So actually if GW wanted - they could give us nice ranged stuff if they wanted and fluff wise also accurate.
Like equivalent for removed havocs/oblits - and still in theme of DG.
"Led by a Space Marine Sergeant, Destroyer Squads were most typically equipped with Missile Launchers armed with Rad Missiles or Volkite Serpenta. They also commonly carried Phosphex Bombs, Rad Grenades, and Melta bombs.[1] To better rain death upon their foes, they were sometimes equipped with Jump Packs.[3]"
Melta bombs/phosphex bombs/rad missiles ? Sounds like pure DG thing.
or maybe we actually will get those guys ?
This would be so cool! I do suspect we will get atleast some kind of special havocs and these fit perfectly. Idk about DG obliterators or anything with jump packs or bikes, seems to fast paced for DG and obliterators are already unique so I doubt there will be a different version of them. DG havocs would add some much needed offensive punch while keeping i theme of footslogging marines.
Niiru wrote: Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."
But... but... English... not how works it...
I can only eat ice cream if it is frozen. <-- implies the ice cream must be cold to be eaten
If it is frozen, I can only eat ice cream. <-- implies my food selections are limited to junk food
Sometimes it works either way but not always and that's why you can't just switch things around like that.
Actually suppose all there is to eat is ice cream...
1. I can only eat ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to do nothing but eat ice cream
2. I can eat only ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat nothing but ice cream
3. I can eat ice cream only if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat ice cream
Oh lord I can already see someone arguing #1 "see, the cloud of flies is so large you can't see anything behind them, so you have to target the unit in front".
So actually if GW wanted - they could give us nice ranged stuff if they wanted and fluff wise also accurate.
Like equivalent for removed havocs/oblits - and still in theme of DG.
"Led by a Space Marine Sergeant, Destroyer Squads were most typically equipped with Missile Launchers armed with Rad Missiles or Volkite Serpenta. They also commonly carried Phosphex Bombs, Rad Grenades, and Melta bombs.[1] To better rain death upon their foes, they were sometimes equipped with Jump Packs.[3]"
Melta bombs/phosphex bombs/rad missiles ? Sounds like pure DG thing.
or maybe we actually will get those guys ?
They actually mentioned the blight launcher is supposed to pay homage to both the rad missle launchers with suspensors as well as the GL in the grave wardens. So it wouldn't shock me if we had a PM variant that could load up on a few more special weapons and possibly had a couple additional unique ones.
Niiru wrote: Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."
But... but... English... not how works it...
I can only eat ice cream if it is frozen. <-- implies the ice cream must be cold to be eaten
If it is frozen, I can only eat ice cream. <-- implies my food selections are limited to junk food
Sometimes it works either way but not always and that's why you can't just switch things around like that.
Actually suppose all there is to eat is ice cream...
1. I can only eat ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to do nothing but eat ice cream
2. I can eat only ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat nothing but ice cream
3. I can eat ice cream only if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat ice cream
1 is RAW. 3 is (presumably) RAI.
Ahh English.
To the person who said that I was incorrect in my 'translation', I was simply pointing out that I can see how people could read the sentence both ways. I personally read it the "right" way the first time I read the rule, but I can see how and why people might read it differently.
English can be funny like that sometimes, I think it's because we don't structure our grammar as much as many languages do. In some languages, if you reorganise a sentence it no longer makes sense, but as... Abbadabbadooban? Really? I only just noticed that name, that's brilliant. But as he shows, you can have three different meanings with essentially the same sentance, and sometimes multiple meanings with one sentence depending on emphasis.
I do think the rule making a unit a fire magnet for a turn would be fun though, but the RAI is clearly meant to be making them immune to targetting for a turn. In fact, if they had worded the rule "This unit is unable to be targetted unless it is the closest visible unit" there would be no ambivalence. But GW don't get English graduates to proof-read their rules. I'm not sure anyone proof reads their rules sometimes!
Maybe someone could clarify something for me... but can Hellforged (Forgeworld) Dreads gain Chapter Tactics? I know they added the Hellbrute Keyword in one FAQ, but a very capable tournament player I know says that GW elsewhere said they could not.
Edit: Apparently it came up at NOVA where a judge deferred to a FB post from Warhammer Community where the answer provided is very much not the way the rest of the strategems are written... saying keywords don't matter unit name does (even though they always refer to keywords like Infantry, etc)
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Maybe someone could clarify something for me... but can Hellforged (Forgeworld) Dreads gain Chapter Tactics? I know they added the Hellbrute Keyword in one FAQ, but a very capable tournament player I know says that GW elsewhere said they could not.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I just want Plague Marines to have 2 attacks again without having to give up the Bolter
Can I ask why? Just a fluff thing or wanting continuity?
I ask because I think that'd actually make them less useful, unless they stayed the same price which I don't consider likely. As it is, you can kit them out as melee specialists, ranged specialists, or a generalist build. Giving them two attacks base and the corresponding price increase honestly just prevents them from acting as a proper ranged unit and might mess up their really efficiently priced melee options.
Honestly, 1-2 bolters are fairly useless. Give a couple flails or axe+knife if you want some melee power on the unit, it's more than enough to compensate for one attack on the other models.
Continuity. All the Cult Marines besides Rubrics have always at minimum 2 attacks.
Gordon Shumway wrote: If the rule allows for Helbrute keyword (not unit), then it gets the rule. The difference evidently is "Helbrute" is bolded when it is a keyword.
The rule states that INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units get legion traits. So yeh, all the forgeworld hellforged units are HELBRUTE now as of the faq, and so that tournament judge is very bad at his job.
If, as he says, it only effects unit names, and therefore only the CSM "Helbrute" unit, then it would also only effect the CSM "Infantry" unit and the CSM "Bikers" unit.
There is no such unit as "Infantry" or "Bikers". (There is "Chaos Bikers", but that's not the same now is it)
Judge is an idiot. Or, in fairness, the person posting on the warhammer community facebook page is an idiot. Though the judge taking an obviously incorrect facebook post as a source for rules is pretty foolish by itself.
Gordon Shumway wrote: If the rule allows for Helbrute keyword (not unit), then it gets the rule. The difference evidently is "Helbrute" is bolded when it is a keyword.
The rule states that INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units get legion traits. So yeh, all the forgeworld hellforged units are HELBRUTE now as of the faq, and so that tournament judge is very bad at his job.
If, as he says, it only effects unit names, and therefore only the CSM "Helbrute" unit, then it would also only effect the CSM "Infantry" unit and the CSM "Bikers" unit.
There is no such unit as "Infantry" or "Bikers". (There is "Chaos Bikers", but that's not the same now is it)
Judge is an idiot. Or, in fairness, the person posting on the warhammer community facebook page is an idiot. Though the judge taking an obviously incorrect facebook post as a source for rules is pretty foolish by itself.
I agree with this 100%, and it seems as cut and dry as I suspected. I just wanted to make sure before I go arguing against someone trying to repeat that awful NOVA judge-call.
If you were still wondering, the Fire Raptor is a beast: I used it today against an Ork player with a Nurgle Sorcerer for -1 to hit and my opponent couldn't actually shoot at it because he was BS5+. I did kind of feel sorry for him till he blasted my new, painted up cultists off the board, such a crime could not be forgiven (especially when I had a unit of my old ugly looking cultists right next to them).
As soon as you get the -2 to hit the Fire Raptor is an untouchable fire magnet: your opponent needs to fire at it but they can't hit it.
Do you mind walking me through how the raptor can get -2 to hit?
Does the raptor need to be a DG legion to be affected by the nurgle sorcerers psyhic power?
whembly wrote: Do you mind walking me through how the raptor can get -2 to hit?
Does the raptor need to be a DG legion to be affected by the nurgle sorcerers psyhic power?
O.o
Also... man, this is F'n awesome!
The Fire Raptor has [MARK OF CHAOS] Keyword which you can make Nurgle. In the CSM codex there is a psychic power that only affects Nurgle models which gives a single unit a -1 to hit.
All I did was take a Night Lords detachment with 2x Sorcerers, 3xCultists and a Fire Raptor and gave them all the Nurgle Keyword, honestly it hurts my fluffy side a little but it's a compromise from the part of me that wanted to give all my NL units the ALPHA LEGION keyword for a better legion tactic.
Im considering adding a 'centerpiece' unit to a chaos army, and was wondering which of the following hellforged units are worth taking, or the best value on the table?
whembly wrote: Do you mind walking me through how the raptor can get -2 to hit?
Does the raptor need to be a DG legion to be affected by the nurgle sorcerers psyhic power?
O.o
Also... man, this is F'n awesome!
The Fire Raptor has [MARK OF CHAOS] Keyword which you can make Nurgle. In the CSM codex there is a psychic power that only affects Nurgle models which gives a single unit a -1 to hit.
All I did was take a Night Lords detachment with 2x Sorcerers, 3xCultists and a Fire Raptor and gave them all the Nurgle Keyword, honestly it hurts my fluffy side a little but it's a compromise from the part of me that wanted to give all my NL units the ALPHA LEGION keyword for a better legion tactic.
That Nurgle psychic power stack??? I was under the impression that those powers do not ever stack...
EDIT: Just realized the Fire Rapter has innate -1 hard to hit.
COOL!
<whem is going to paint his fire raptor for his next tourny... along with Morty! >
Niiru wrote: Im considering adding a 'centerpiece' unit to a chaos army, and was wondering which of the following hellforged units are worth taking, or the best value on the table?
Land Raider Achilles
Land Raider Prometheues
Fire Raptor
Storm Eagle
IMO, pick one of the flyers. They offer so much more than any LR variant. If you're looking for an excellent transport with some real good shooting, take the storm eagle. If you just want a ton of dakka, take the fire raptor. Avenger bolt cannon, quad HB turrets, and TL lascannons on the wings can usually take out an entire unit a turn. As mentioned above, both can get up to -2 hit, so your opponent will have a very tough time taking them down.
Maybe deathguard will function best with Alpha legion because of forward operatives. Just use that to put a few squads of Plague marines within 9.1 inches before the start of battle. So you save points from having to bring all those Rhinos, and you take at most one turn of shooting before you are engaged. And if deathguard can't even take one round of shooting, then they really have no business being deathguard. lol
Eldenfirefly wrote: Maybe deathguard will function best with Alpha legion because of forward operatives. Just use that to put a few squads of Plague marines within 9.1 inches before the start of battle. So you save points from having to bring all those Rhinos, and you take at most one turn of shooting before you are engaged. And if deathguard can't even take one round of shooting, then they really have no business being deathguard. lol
If they're Death Guard, they can't also be Alpha Legion. And if they're Alpha Legion, they can't be Death Guard.
No Forward Operatives for the pox-ridden horde I'm afraid.
Eldenfirefly wrote: zzz... well Alpha legion can take plague marines as elite choices. But yeah, then they won't be death guard anymore. :(
Let's see how good the DG terminators are. Maybe they will be so good people will run a mostly DG terminator army.
Oh they will be good. Good aka 5T and FNP and you will have to pay 60 points for each naked because "50% DG points tax ".
No doubt they will be resilient, but once again you will be able field 3 normal chaos terminators for 2 DG. So entire resilience benefit will be as always outshined by raw amount of bodies and superior firepower they bring. So losing in all aspects including resilience.
But a bit less pesimistic approach : They should be 5T FNP like plague marines and also in cataphractii armor as far as fluff goes. That is some nasty tankiness. But then again not worth 50% tax ;x.
Ok was looking at cost and naked Chaos Terminator is 31 ppm and Scarab Occult is 33 ppm. I think fair approach would be ~~37ppm since actually TS termies All is Dust ain't as potent on termies like it is on Rubricae Marines. And T5 and FNP basically gives drastic increase of protection against overheated plasma. You will be wounded on 3+ instead of 2+ , need to pass at least 1 FNP test to survive on top of probably cataphractii armor providing 4+ invu (not sure about that one). But that is fair since they won't have access to inferno combi bolters, will be inferior in movement with advance halved.
Actually just to get back to talking about tactics. I wonder if anyone has the models to try out a mostly terminator world eaters army.
Just hear me out. The +1 attack on charge which is the world eaters legion trait works best on high power CC models like terminators.
One squad of terminators by themselves is probably just fodder for plasma guns. But what if you went for threat overload and filled as much of your army with terminators as you could?
And it doesn't have to be the expensive combi plama type of terminators. Just take the normal combi bolter ones. a combi bolter still shoots 4 shots at 12 inches and that is very very decent.
A squad of 5 with full power axes and combi bolters is just 190 points. A full squad of 10 is 380 points. So, you can have 40 terminators for 1520 points. 40 terminators can put out 160 combi bolters shots. That's enough to wipe out most bubble wrap fodder. With the WE legion trait, each squad of 5 will do 16 power weapon attacks on the charge, which is again very good.
And 40 terminators = 80 wounds with 2+ save and 5++ Even if you were facing a heavy gunline, I don't think it can kill off 80 terminators within one round.
And with power axes making it str 5 attacks with -2 ap, you can just activate veterans of the long war and you will be able to wound T7 or T8 vehicles on a 4+. It may not be super mobile, since once you deep strike into a sector, you are more or less commmitted. But mobility is less of a thing this edition I feel. And you can probably spread out 40 terminators enough such that you can form a cordon that would be difficult to break through.
So, anyone with 30 or more terminators tried this out with World eaters?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's an example of such a list. I just went full bore terminators, didn't really try and optimise.
World eaters termi army - 2000 points
2 terminator lords with power fists and combi bolters
3 squads of 10 cultists
3 units of 1 spawn each.
4 squads of 10 combi bolter terminators, champion has power fist, icon of wrath, mixed power weapons (mauls, swords and axes).
Total : 2000 points. 75 models. 160 shots from the terminators, and 56 power attacks on the charge (of which 16 are power fist attacks). (plus another 10 power fist attacks from the two terminator lords).
So, if I go first, I drop 42 terminator bodies at 9.1 inches and all attempt to charge with rerolls after firing over 160 shots. Then turn two onwards I just tighten the noose and continue to attempt to shoot and then charge whatever isn't already in combat. If opponent goes first, he has nothing of value to shoot at. 3 cultist squads and 3 spawns. lol Then my turn same thing again.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Actually just to get back to talking about tactics. I wonder if anyone has the models to try out a mostly terminator world eaters army.
Just hear me out. The +1 attack on charge which is the world eaters legion trait works best on high power CC models like terminators.
One squad of terminators by themselves is probably just fodder for plasma guns. But what if you went for threat overload and filled as much of your army with terminators as you could?
And it doesn't have to be the expensive combi plama type of terminators. Just take the normal combi bolter ones. a combi bolter still shoots 4 shots at 12 inches and that is very very decent.
A squad of 5 with full power axes and combi bolters is just 190 points. A full squad of 10 is 380 points. So, you can have 40 terminators for 1520 points. 40 terminators can put out 160 combi bolters shots. That's enough to wipe out most bubble wrap fodder. With the WE legion trait, each squad of 5 will do 16 power weapon attacks on the charge, which is again very good.
And 40 terminators = 80 wounds with 2+ save and 5++ Even if you were facing a heavy gunline, I don't think it can kill off 80 terminators within one round.
And with power axes making it str 5 attacks with -2 ap, you can just activate veterans of the long war and you will be able to wound T7 or T8 vehicles on a 4+. It may not be super mobile, since once you deep strike into a sector, you are more or less commmitted. But mobility is less of a thing this edition I feel. And you can probably spread out 40 terminators enough such that you can form a cordon that would be difficult to break through.
So, anyone with 30 or more terminators tried this out with World eaters?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's an example of such a list. I just went full bore terminators, didn't really try and optimise.
World eaters termi army - 2000 points
2 terminator lords with power fists and combi bolters
3 squads of 10 cultists
3 units of 1 spawn each.
4 squads of 10 combi bolter terminators, champion has power fist, icon of wrath, mixed power weapons (mauls, swords and axes).
Total : 2000 points. 75 models. 160 shots from the terminators, and 56 power attacks on the charge (of which 16 are power fist attacks). (plus another 10 power fist attacks from the two terminator lords).
So, if I go first, I drop 42 terminator bodies at 9.1 inches and all attempt to charge with rerolls after firing over 160 shots. Then turn two onwards I just tighten the noose and continue to attempt to shoot and then charge whatever isn't already in combat. If opponent goes first, he has nothing of value to shoot at. 3 cultist squads and 3 spawns. lol Then my turn same thing again.
Honestly if you want to spam terminators so badly - I would go with Thousand sons - sure they don't have access to plasma, neither to any power weapon except for swords.
BUT : Even simple non heavy weapon scarab occult terminator is very deadly model - as you mentioned if each storm bolter shoots 4 times at 12" that is cool, but what is better is 4 times with AP-2.
Basically without paying crapton of points for plasma on chaos terminators - you get weapons that when combined with veterans of long war can even melt heavy stuff.
On top of that they don't need lord to babysit them with rerolling 1's so they won't die from overcharing plasma. And there is more : you can chaos familiar stratagem warp time them and get almost guaranteed charge - so even in this aspect they beat Khorne dudes - just having 3 times higher chance to pull of charge ! Where other terminators need massive point investment of Sorcerer with terminator armor.
Of course downside is that this can only be taken Thousand sons not World eaters.
But still scarab occult Terminators are excelent for points value. You can also take squad of 10 and cast weaver of fates on them to make sure they don't go down easily.
Well, each has its pros and cons. I just wanted to make World Eaters work. Icon of wrath means that all the squads can charge with rerolls. Warptime can only be cast on one squad. But yes, thousand sons terminators are an option too.
Problem with that is you can be zoned out of juicy targets with wrap, and you will surely delete the wrap on the drop. What follows is a bunch of smites and return fire which should decimate the termies.
Lord Commissar wrote: Problem with that is you can be zoned out of juicy targets with wrap, and you will surely delete the wrap on the drop. What follows is a bunch of smites and return fire which should decimate the termies.
And this is very reason why TS Scarabs are so good , even if your target is wrapped , unit with massive firepower like they are with warp time can effectively rapid fire up to 17". Enough to shoot something valuable like hellblasters, deal solid damage. Then just charge wrap.
This is good in my eyes as they have this huge benefit that they don't need sorcerer to come with them or lord. And so even if they go down eventually - they usually do more damage than typical termie thanks to rapid firing inferno combi bolters.
Because let's be honest charge after deep strike is 27%, around ~~47% with reroll right ? So still unreliable. But then again that is not problem for Scarabs as they can warp time. And even if they don't - staggering firepower they dish out for mere 3 points per inferno combi bolter - makes sure they will deal some damage even if charge fails. And let's not forget that if someone tries to deal with scarabs then they don't shoot Magnus closing in . So they may aswell be forced to ignore scarabs and take on bigger threat.
As always most important tactic is to either deny your opponent any nice targets for his charges/shooting or give him so many viable that some will get through unharmed.
techsoldaten wrote: mario, you keep saying you are going to reserve judgement until the codex drops. But there is so much judgement in what you are laying out...
Something to consider. In 8th edition, models drop off the board much faster than in previous editions. What makes Death Guard special is that they are not going to do that, at least not as fast. From what we know about the new Codex, the point seems to be that DG just don't die easily.
Not sure what you were expecting, but this seems to be an attrition army. It's totally fine to say you don't like such a thing, but I don't see where the rules are all that bad considering the nature of the force. The stratagems are no better or worse than what other armies have, same with the special rules.
Ok indeed i post a bit too much of recent. But my point is they are not that resilent at all. And you have to pay VERY HEAVILY for extra resilence. When others just can field more bodies instead ... Who happen to be doing more damage aswell.
Good example what i'm saying is plague marine - 19 points (used to be 21 points ...) - improved resilience but that guy is still just 1 swing in CC, and simple bolter. Fact is you can just get 3 CSM Marines for your 2 plague Marines. It will be equally hard to kill them and they just do 50% more damage plain and simple. Idk how is that fair, also it helps to fill troop tax much easier aswell. This gets even more dire when you compare them to primaris marines who cost same per model but get 2 wounds , MUCH better gun and twice as many attacks ... 2 wounds beat 1 wound even with T5 and FNP. Last but not least all those mentioned marines have movement of 6 compared to Plague Marines 5 - rendering them as assault unit aswell unless with expensive transport.
And here I can pass final judgement as plague marines full value and stats were updated in recent CSM codex.
So to wrap it up : yeah DG units are more resilient but at same time way more expensive so in fact it's as easy to table them as anyone else- as example with plague marine vs csm marine proves. At same time they don't pack punch at all. This is why i'm concerned.
So idk what war attrition means if you don't have anything going for you.
To show you what balanced and solid cult marine looks and it's priced as it should be is Rubricae Marine :
1. Very resilient against 1 damage attacks - and those usually are aimed at your troops, when bigger guns go for Magnus/Vehicles/Other heavy stuff.
2. Even against bigger guns they still hold on 5+ invu when such plague marine is striped to no armor against helblaster shoot.
3. And most importantly along extra resilience they also hit like a truck with -2 AP bolters.
For DG units we get random +1T and FNP and suddenly price goes up 50% out of nowhere. So yeah sounds like gak :(.
You have to understand we are waiting for codex from people who put original prices in mini book for DG like that: Bloat drone - 206 (my God ...) , LoC 184 (hohoho) , plague marines - 21 points ( yep no mistake 8 points more than normal CSM for what ?). So yeah i have my faith shattered as for now.
Can you really trust when someone charges you for FNP 50% or more compared to equivalents without ? I don't :(.
I don't think I understand your comparisons here. By my math, a plague marine is tougher than a rubric marine. Against a bolter hit for example, 1/3 to wound, 1/3 to fail armor, and 2/3 to fail FNP. Rubric is 1/2 to wound, 1/6 fail save. Pop the plague marine in cover though and he gets a huge durability increase while the rubric marine can't do anything to increase his save further.
For higher power weapons like las cannons, it doesn't completely ignore your armor. In fact, if you pop into cover with the plague marine you'll have the same 5+ save the rubric marine gets while also having the 5+ FNP and be wounded on a 3+ instead of a 2+.
For warlord trait comparison, yes the +1 wound and 6+ FNP is probably better for smaller characters like lords and sorcerers, but the more wounds you have the better the 4+ FNP becomes. On Mortarian or a Daemon Prince, for example, the 4+ FNP will be more powerful.
Even the strategem to make units untargetable unless they're the closest can dramatically reduce damage taken if it forces opponents out of rapid fire range. It will also be amazing while working on missions like the relic or anything else objective based where the unit becomes incredibly hard to displace.
Well sorry mate, but I disagree. Rubric Marines tend to be extremely durable against very popular weapons like ASS-cannons , bolters or even non overheated-plasma.
Simple comparison against very popular in this meta assault cannon - both will be wounded on 3+ , but Rubric will remain 2+ in cover and 3+ outside of cover - when plague Marines will have 3+ and 4+ respectively. Sure there is FNP. But I would call that far from being more durable especially in cover Rubric Marines shine big time. And damn assault cannons are one of dominant in this meta weapons who like to aim infantry !
Against multi wound weapons both cult marines have serious problems as chain rolling 5+ is already pretty hard even against D2 weapons it's 1 out of 9... Rubric lose thier extra armor there, but very often when you are outside of cover - or enemy can ignore cover they at least can hide behind invu save to bounce of multi melta/ hellblaster or lascannon. And what about plague marine ? Can you really Pass 6 times FNP for example ?
So it's situational really but against tons of stuff Rubrics hold better or equally than Plague Marines - and at same time and same cost they dish SUBSTANTIALLY more firepower - inferno bolters are threat to anything but T8 targets, and even those you can damage with Veteran stratagem.
While Plague Marines who don't hold some xpensive special weapon simply cannot hurt anything - against other marines thier pathethic S4 no AP bolters basically bounce off.
Good example is to simply put rubric in front of plague marine and let them fight - i bet my money on rubric dude. GL getting through 2+ WITHOUT even need to be in cover. While despite T5 and FNP you get save of 5+ or 4+ if you sit in cover ...
And stop being so optimistic in your bolter comparison - more and more bolters are replaced by autobolt rifles - so Rubric in cover is still 2+ when your Plague Marine let TWICE as many hits gets through - same against popular ASS-Cannons.
You need a DS -3 weapon to make the 5++ of Rubrics count. Everything less means the Plague marines will have the same safe + their DR afterwards + increased T reducing the amount of wounds. Rubrics don't beat them on resilience. "Tons of stuff" is probably only the Assault cannon, reaper Autocannon and Scatterlasers - weapons with high strength but 1 damage.
Also you can have 3plasma guns on 5 PMs, making them 21points more expensive than 5 rubrics. Or take two blight launchers for 23 points, which are better than inferno bolters in every way (4 inferno shots on 12-24" vs 4 BL shots + 2 Bolters + 1Plasma, maximum damage: 4 vs. 11 on average). Rubrics aren't bad (their sorcerer is of course better than the plague champion), but neither are ranged plague marines.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Maybe someone could clarify something for me... but can Hellforged (Forgeworld) Dreads gain Chapter Tactics? I know they added the Hellbrute Keyword in one FAQ, but a very capable tournament player I know says that GW elsewhere said they could not.
I think some people, possibly the Judge are confusing when something is a Keyword and when it isn't. This one in particular is important when you're talking about Legion Tactics and the Fire Frenzy Strategim. Legion Tactics affect all HELBRUTES. You know it is talking about the keyword "HELBRUTES" because it is Bolded, specifically mentions it being a keyword, or both. So Legion Tactics affect FW dreads, because they were given that keyword. The Fire Frenzy Strategim affects "Helbrutes". Not bolded, no mention of keywords. Fire Frenzy only affects the unit entry "Helbrute", so not any of the FW dreads.
I mention this to clarify. You mentioned FB and I've seen this specific issue on FB many, many times.
So, I know when the codex came out one thing people were raving over was combi plasma terminators with the double firing stratagem. However, in the horde heavy meta I've found myself using a 10 man squad of combi flamer terminators, with a sorcerer to warp time them in range.
Double firing 10 flamers and boltguns is fairly brutal. 70 flamer hits and 20 bolter hits on average. I use power fists on them to make sure the enemy worries about them getting through their expandable chaff into the juicy protected bits.
Lightning claw khorne+WE terminators can do a similar job, but I find they don't threaten tanks quite as well.
If I am playing Berserkers does their target also get to fight again or just them? In the additional fight phase?
If I want to play a CC heavy army like Khorne how can I also run sorcerors?
Only the Berzerkers get to fight twice, not their target. As for Sorcerers, run them in a separate detachment. I'm going to be playing in a tournament on Saturday with both a WE detachment and an AL detachment (which includes Sorcerers and a Slaanesh DP). Berzerkers + Warptime = Profit!
Sorry if this has come up already, but on a 20 chaos marine squad, what 2 heavy or special weapons would you bring?
I plan on playing as Black Legion, but I'm not sure their legion trait should be a factor for picking what special/heavy weapon to bring, as I'm not quite sure if the blob will be doing that much moving around? (I haven't played Csm that much).
So, as someone currently playing a WE / Khorne Daemon army, and always looking to try new tactics and units, what's the concensus on running a landraider with 3x Mutilators along with a chaos lord or other 1x capacity IC? I know mutilators are currently living in the dark, dark shadows of their ranged brethren, the Obliterators, Mutilators would take great advantage of the WE legion perk for +1 Attack on the charge.
The current drawback for Mutilators, from what I've read, is that they're so damn slow. The land raider would rectify this, at least up until the point where they disembark (they could eventually get back in though right?). Also, I just checked and they cannot take an Icon of Wrath it appears, so no +1" to charges and advances. But they are daemon keyword, so lets keep a herald or DP nearby for the Unstoppable Ferocity bonus. They also benefit from the WE legion trait so that's +1 attack on the charge. There is a bit of a price tag on this at 506 pts base and I would only consider it if I was already planning on taking a LR and was simply looking for a unit to fill it with.
When the Mutilators disembark, you're looking at a variable charge range and since they have no icon I believe it would be wise to try to get them to at least 8" or 9" if you're feeling brave. When they make it in and with Unstoppable Ferocity, you'll be looking at 15 attacks on top of the D3 values from the STR, AP and DMG rolls. Keep a lord nearby so you're rerolling those ones, or an Exalted Champ for wound reroll's. Playing against an Imperium foe? Look to add some extra attacks on with DttFE. So that's STR 5+D3(+1) and while it's not extremely devastating, it will definitely do some damage. Now perhaps you got some particularly good rolls on your stats, throw in the VofLW or Fury of Khorne stratagems and they'll be frolicking in giblets I'd think.
This of course is all in theory. With 3 wounds, a 2+ save and 5++ daemon save, and potentially a Land Raider in the near vicinity, they could be tough to remove. Any thoughts on this? Potential drawbacks or other viable tactics?
Honestly, if you are going WE, I'd just deepstrike them with a khorne chaos icon and hope the charge goes off. Your enemy can keep kite them, but having to move a ton of your army, often with heavy weapons, every turn is going to mess things up. It's also 10 points for a 50/50 shot at a turn one charge vs 300ish points for probably a turn two charge, and the land raider isn't offering enough firepower to make up for the other 250 points being spent.
eternalxfl wrote: So, as someone currently playing a WE / Khorne Daemon army, and always looking to try new tactics and units, what's the concensus on running a landraider with 3x Mutilators along with a chaos lord or other 1x capacity IC? I know mutilators are currently living in the dark, dark shadows of their ranged brethren, the Obliterators, Mutilators would take great advantage of the WE legion perk for +1 Attack on the charge.
The current drawback for Mutilators, from what I've read, is that they're so damn slow. The land raider would rectify this, at least up until the point where they disembark (they could eventually get back in though right?). Also, I just checked and they cannot take an Icon of Wrath it appears, so no +1" to charges and advances. But they are daemon keyword, so lets keep a herald or DP nearby for the Unstoppable Ferocity bonus. They also benefit from the WE legion trait so that's +1 attack on the charge. There is a bit of a price tag on this at 506 pts base and I would only consider it if I was already planning on taking a LR and was simply looking for a unit to fill it with.
When the Mutilators disembark, you're looking at a variable charge range and since they have no icon I believe it would be wise to try to get them to at least 8" or 9" if you're feeling brave. When they make it in and with Unstoppable Ferocity, you'll be looking at 15 attacks on top of the D3 values from the STR, AP and DMG rolls. Keep a lord nearby so you're rerolling those ones, or an Exalted Champ for wound reroll's. Playing against an Imperium foe? Look to add some extra attacks on with DttFE. So that's STR 5+D3(+1) and while it's not extremely devastating, it will definitely do some damage. Now perhaps you got some particularly good rolls on your stats, throw in the VofLW or Fury of Khorne stratagems and they'll be frolicking in giblets I'd think.
This of course is all in theory. With 3 wounds, a 2+ save and 5++ daemon save, and potentially a Land Raider in the near vicinity, they could be tough to remove. Any thoughts on this? Potential drawbacks or other viable tactics?
Icon of Wrath re-rolls charge ranges, not adds +1".
They do not benefit from unstoppable ferocity because they don't have that special rule and the rule itself isn't an aura affect (you might be thinking of Herald of Khorne which is +1S within 6").
If you are looking to get into 8/9" range then why not just deep strike them? Why wait 1/2 turns to get into melee?
As it is, mutilators are completely out shone by Terminators who have access to better CQC weapons and ranged weapons as well as being more consistent in their attacks and having access to icons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverAlien wrote: Honestly, if you are going WE, I'd just deepstrike them with a khorne chaos icon and hope the charge goes off. Your enemy can keep kite them, but having to move a ton of your army, often with heavy weapons, every turn is going to mess things up. It's also 10 points for a 50/50 shot at a turn one charge vs 300ish points for probably a turn two charge, and the land raider isn't offering enough firepower to make up for the other 250 points being spent.
Icon of Wrath re-rolls charge ranges, not adds +1".
They do not benefit from unstoppable ferocity because they don't have that special rule and the rule itself isn't an aura affect (you might be thinking of Herald of Khorne which is +1S within 6").
If you are looking to get into 8/9" range then why not just deep strike them? Why wait 1/2 turns to get into melee?
As it is, mutilators are completely out shone by Terminators who have access to better CQC weapons and ranged weapons as well as being more consistent in their attacks and having access to icons.
Hmm, yea I had unstoppable ferocity mistaken for the simple +1S aura from the HoK.
Yea, I guess in hindsight now it's either deepstrike or keep em on the shelf. Deepstrike wouldn't be so bad if their movement wasn't so poor. You bring them in, they swing their load and that's practically it for them.
I do like the option of running Obliterators, I just feel like I'm neglecting the WE legion trait with them. Perhaps I should ignore that fact since their ranged firepower can be so strong.
Icon of Wrath re-rolls charge ranges, not adds +1".
They do not benefit from unstoppable ferocity because they don't have that special rule and the rule itself isn't an aura affect (you might be thinking of Herald of Khorne which is +1S within 6").
If you are looking to get into 8/9" range then why not just deep strike them? Why wait 1/2 turns to get into melee?
As it is, mutilators are completely out shone by Terminators who have access to better CQC weapons and ranged weapons as well as being more consistent in their attacks and having access to icons.
Hmm, yea I had unstoppable ferocity mistaken for the simple +1S aura from the HoK.
Yea, I guess in hindsight now it's either deepstrike or keep em on the shelf. Deepstrike wouldn't be so bad if their movement wasn't so poor. You bring them in, they swing their load and that's practically it for them.
I do like the option of running Obliterators, I just feel like I'm neglecting the WE legion trait with them. Perhaps I should ignore that fact since their ranged firepower can be so strong.
Don't think like that. Remember: Obliterators hit units hard with their guns but they might not kill them. Charging after firing is a legit thing to do.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The literal only benefits to Mutilators is they don't die to Overcharged Plasma at the same rate and have a lower point investment.
Really the profiles for Obliterators and Mutilators just need to be combined.
For a second there, I thought you were saying their only benefit was that they don't die so easy to overcharged plasma because they can't take a plasma gun and kill themselves with it... Which I guess does make them less likely to die to overcharged plasma...
If you really want to run a Land Raider just to transport something killy, probably the better thing to use would be two squads of world eaters Berserkers with champs using power fists. Now, just from the two champs, you have 4 attacks on the charge each, and they fight twice, so thats 8 attacks. Two champs = 16 power fist attacks already. And we are not even counting the boatload of chainaxe and chainsword attacks from the rest of the 8 normal berserkers.
The article on DG legion traits and psychic powers are out! I am sad, my army is painted black legion, but the DG legion traits are better in every way. zzzz Pretty good for DG though. Rapid fire plasma guns at 18 inches is a thing with DG armies. That's a pretty long range. If not running Motarion, I am thinking Typhus with two large squads of pox walkers for bubble wrap, marching forward infront. Followed behind by MSU squads of plague marines with either 3 plasma guns each (champ can take plasma gun too), or 1 plasma gun and 2 blight launchers. And maybe a Daemon prince to give rerolls to 1 if you absolutely need to overcharge your plasma. lol
If they have DG terminators who can take plasma guns or combi plasmas... its going to be brutal lol. Imagine a squad of 10 deep striking in and then unleashing 20 plasma shots at 18 inches. The bubblewrap will have to be really far away from the juicy units in order to prevent them from double tapping! lol
BTW, the article mentions that there will be new DG daemon engines, and these get DR! Wonder what these will be.
Assuming all other things equal, in a well rounded list, which would you prefer to take...
1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)
2. Replacing the above with two units of Obliterators (one Slaanesh for possible double-fire, one Tzeentch to benefit from a nearby Changeling)
Either permutation would result in my list ending up legal, and netting 8CP, but I am really conflicted as to which option to take for an upcoming GT.
Well sorry mate, but I disagree. Rubric Marines tend to be extremely durable against very popular weapons like ASS-cannons , bolters or even non overheated-plasma.
Simple comparison against very popular in this meta assault cannon - both will be wounded on 3+ , but Rubric will remain 2+ in cover and 3+ outside of cover - when plague Marines will have 3+ and 4+ respectively. Sure there is FNP. But I would call that far from being more durable especially in cover Rubric Marines shine big time. And damn assault cannons are one of dominant in this meta weapons who like to aim infantry !
Against multi wound weapons both cult marines have serious problems as chain rolling 5+ is already pretty hard even against D2 weapons it's 1 out of 9... Rubric lose thier extra armor there, but very often when you are outside of cover - or enemy can ignore cover they at least can hide behind invu save to bounce of multi melta/ hellblaster or lascannon. And what about plague marine ? Can you really Pass 6 times FNP for example ?
So it's situational really but against tons of stuff Rubrics hold better or equally than Plague Marines - and at same time and same cost they dish SUBSTANTIALLY more firepower - inferno bolters are threat to anything but T8 targets, and even those you can damage with Veteran stratagem.
While Plague Marines who don't hold some xpensive special weapon simply cannot hurt anything - against other marines thier pathethic S4 no AP bolters basically bounce off.
Good example is to simply put rubric in front of plague marine and let them fight - i bet my money on rubric dude. GL getting through 2+ WITHOUT even need to be in cover. While despite T5 and FNP you get save of 5+ or 4+ if you sit in cover ...
And stop being so optimistic in your bolter comparison - more and more bolters are replaced by autobolt rifles - so Rubric in cover is still 2+ when your Plague Marine let TWICE as many hits gets through - same against popular ASS-Cannons.
So I'm doing the math with and without cover and I've still gotta disagree with you here.
Against bolters, the Plague Marine is hands down tougher in all setups.
Against the assault cannon: They are equally durable.
Against Plasma Guns: The rubric is 3.7% less likely to die if it's not overcharged and there is no cover but in all other situations where cover or overcharging is involved the plague marine ends up less likely to take damage sometimes by as much as 12%.
Even for the bolt rifles (which I assume is what you meant since autobolt rifles don't have any different ap values or anything to change the numbers from regular bolters) that you're saying I'm being too generous to not consider I'm seeing the plague marines are universally tougher against than rubrics with or without cover.
I think you said something about a math degree, but I'm not understanding where your math or your assertions are coming from. Why don't we compare computations for a moment here.
Bolt Rifle against target in the open
Plague Marine: 1/3 to wound, 1/2 to fail save, 2/3 to fail fnp= 1/9 chance for a hit to kill
Rubric Marine: 1/2 to wound, 1/3 to fail save=1/6 chance for a hit to kill
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: 1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)
My experience is limited, but when I used my contemptor with 1x Kheres and 1x Deathclaw, that helbrute must have taken total 15-17 damage during the game as I managed to gain wounds back with the machina malifica ability. If you go dual-kheres, you will shoot hard but your dread will be basically useless if anything charges it, it will just attack 4 times WS 2+ S 7 but AP 0 D 1. Some hordes it could kill little by little, but were it charged by vehicle or any elite high save unit it will be bogged down easily. It also has 5++ save which becomes 4++ in melee.
All in all, I would personally always have one melee weapon bought for it as it's rules support melee fighting. The unit itself has good movement speed (9") and can easily move and shoot heavy weapons while closing in on enemy with BS 2+. With melee weapon it can threaten most vehicles and characters and will just rip through MEQs.
EDIT:
Ok, I reconsidered your whole original question, and I would say go with the Obliterators. Your 2x Kheres Contemptor + 10 extra berserkers (on top of you having already 10 berserkers in list) is huge amount of horde control, but at the same time these don't really increase your anti-vehicle firepower - Kheres are very unoptimal against any T 7 Sv 3+ units.
AND THAT IS SOMETHING. Finally we getting useful stuff.
You see I was only complaining when we got only sour candy .
Now that ... I can see TACTIC for DG where they are not there to get wrecked by others.
Actually even though a bit overpriced - I can see units like CC oriented Plague Marines actually being able to demolish ANYTHING including stuff like Custodes. That is if they strike first.
Just imagine Veteran of Long War combined with Blades of Putrefaction and/or Putrescent Vitality. They would be wounding with proper CC weapons on 2+ rerolling 1's and on top of that doing mortal wounds on 5+ !!
Legion Trait looks good , but idk about what heavy weapons they are talking about - except for Brute there is hardly anyone to benefit from this Trait.
Though now Plasma guns and Blight Launchers suddenly got even better.
Helbrute moving up 8" and still hiting on 3+ with twin lascannon ?
Now this doesn't sound like rant? Of course not since actually useful stuff for army I want to expand .
Seems like we have to use psyker heavy armies to do well. Fair enough.
@ lessthanjeff
I didn't say that Rubrics are all day long more resilient against anything in any situation. So please don't bring quiet pitiful arguments of my math failing. As yourself proved that there are situations where defense against ASS-Cannons can equal and against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines. Thanks since I wasn't even running math for it , just guessed . Glad I was right.
Against Auto Bolt rifle your math is correct, but once again supporting my statement - you intentionally forget case when marines are in cover - and that is case very often. In that situation Plague Marine gets wounded with 7% chance and Rubric with 8%. So yeah hardly "disgustingly resilient" compared to TS Marine.
Entire problem I have with typical Plague Marine is that they don't have punch and we are paying too much for just toughness. Where Rubric is nearly as tough and punches WAY HARDER.
But I start to see merit in DG guys as of now with new psychic powers and legion trait. Now they still shoot useless bolters but rapid firing at 18" ... Okay so they double damage 6" before Rubrics ! In CC they got more potential aswell.
So maybe - actually i'm 100% sure everyone is right i should hold my judgement till we get codex .
I didn't say that Rubrics are all day long more resilient against anything in any situation. So please don't bring quiet pitiful arguments of my math failing. As yourself proved that there are situations where defense against ASS-Cannons can equal and against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines. Thanks since I wasn't even running math for it , just guessed . Glad I was right.
Against Auto Bolt rifle your math is correct, but once again supporting my statement - you intentionally forget case when marines are in cover - and that is case very often. In that situation Plague Marine gets wounded with 7% chance and Rubric with 8%. So yeah hardly "disgustingly resilient" compared to TS Marine.
Entire problem I have with typical Plague Marine is that they don't have punch and we are paying too much for just toughness. Where Rubric is nearly as tough and punches WAY HARDER.
But I start to see merit in DG guys as of now with new psychic powers and legion trait. Now they still shoot useless bolters but rapid firing at 18" ... Okay so they double damage 6" before Rubrics ! In CC they got more potential aswell.
So maybe - actually i'm 100% sure everyone is right i should hold my judgement till we get codex .
Your quote from page 82 that encouraged me to start running comparisons was "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT". If you're changing your statement now that's fine, but don't say I'm the one putting those words in your mouth. I'm replying to you.
Another of your quotes was "against tons of stuff Rubrics hold better or equally than Plague Marines". I've not found tons of stuff though. I've found one calculation for one weapon type that showed a 3.7% advantage while 3 other setups with the same exact weapon under different circumstances show as much as a 12% advantage the other way. It makes less sense to me that you read that and then replied "against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines".
I haven't forgotten cover's effect either. I specifically showed how cover calculations make the Plague Marines even tougher in comparison because the rubric invul stays the same but Plague Marines get a better save. I used it specifically in my first lascannon example but it also applied to the plasma gun calculations I gave you which showed Plague Marines being tougher. I did not intentionally leave it off from the bolt rifle comparison either and I don't know why you're using it to support your claim that "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT" as it also shows the plague marine is harder to kill. It's one of many similar results I found.
Had a pretty good innings for Konor today. Death Hex is murder for Thunderwolves, lost count of how many died after hacking their Storm Shields. Space Wolf units just deleted me in CC in 7ed, this time a Thunderwolf Lord charged my Word Bearers Berzerkers and got ripped apart. They weren't even a massive unit or carrying any big axes or fists, I built them as fencers & Matrix gunslingers as a project and wanted to see how they'd fare. So yeah, you can load out Zerks suboptimally and get charged by beatsticks and still wreck face. (EDIT: Dark Apostle and DTTFE -helped a lot. I was getting fifty hits per fight phase)
Building up a Disc Herald and Disc Sorcerer, going to see what Tzeentch Possessed can do with some nasty buffs. Not sure if I'll bother with Changeling? It feels like I may as well spend the points on more Possessed and not have to worry about conga lining back to him or leaving another character out the Brigade?
Anyone having luck with Screamers? I'd like to run a load of them alongside this lot but 5 Power for three with 2W and one alright attack hitting on 4+ just doesn't feel like it compares with Fiends' unique superpower, or Seekers' bucket of rending attacks. Nine of them can fly over stuff and inflict 1.5MW before getting kicked to death, for nearly half the cost of a flipping Land Raider. Impressive threat radius, but Slaanesh seems to do that better? Probably only going to use them in Narrative Play when I've got a stationary Tzeentch Sorcerer who may as well make a free unit....
I didn't say that Rubrics are all day long more resilient against anything in any situation. So please don't bring quiet pitiful arguments of my math failing. As yourself proved that there are situations where defense against ASS-Cannons can equal and against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines. Thanks since I wasn't even running math for it , just guessed . Glad I was right.
Against Auto Bolt rifle your math is correct, but once again supporting my statement - you intentionally forget case when marines are in cover - and that is case very often. In that situation Plague Marine gets wounded with 7% chance and Rubric with 8%. So yeah hardly "disgustingly resilient" compared to TS Marine.
Entire problem I have with typical Plague Marine is that they don't have punch and we are paying too much for just toughness. Where Rubric is nearly as tough and punches WAY HARDER.
But I start to see merit in DG guys as of now with new psychic powers and legion trait. Now they still shoot useless bolters but rapid firing at 18" ... Okay so they double damage 6" before Rubrics ! In CC they got more potential aswell.
So maybe - actually i'm 100% sure everyone is right i should hold my judgement till we get codex .
Your quote from page 82 that encouraged me to start running comparisons was "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT". If you're changing your statement now that's fine, but don't say I'm the one putting those words in your mouth. I'm replying to you.
Another of your quotes was "against tons of stuff Rubrics hold better or equally than Plague Marines". I've not found tons of stuff though. I've found one calculation for one weapon type that showed a 3.7% advantage while 3 other setups with the same exact weapon under different circumstances show as much as a 12% advantage the other way. It makes less sense to me that you read that and then replied "against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines".
I haven't forgotten cover's effect either. I specifically showed how cover calculations make the Plague Marines even tougher in comparison because the rubric invul stays the same but Plague Marines get a better save. I used it specifically in my first lascannon example but it also applied to the plasma gun calculations I gave you which showed Plague Marines being tougher. I did not intentionally leave it off from the bolt rifle comparison either and I don't know why you're using it to support your claim that "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT" as it also shows the plague marine is harder to kill. It's one of many similar results I found.
Ok I though we can move on with this, but since you really want more examples then let's point out those.
Against meltagun/multi melta - in open Plague Marine gets completly stripped out of armor :
So vs PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to get through FNP in case of damage 1 - but that is hardly case since D2 it's 8/9 already and gets worse for PM with more damage rolled.Only in 1/6 case PM gets better chances to survive (when damage rolled on melta is 1).
vs RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to get through armor. So yeah 10/18 to kill RM
Although we already spoken about plasma - let's dig deeper - as of now we got access to juicy helblasters. And expect those to be pretty popular. Hell your Plague Marines do experience them right in Dark Imperium starting BOX!!!
without overheating in open (and trust me you will in open pretty damn often with plague marines - read thier new legion trait / setup)
VS PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to pass FNP - 4/9 to nail one. 44% to go down. In cover it's 37% - so less durable in cover than RM in open - quiet powerful argument is it ?
VS RM 2/3 to wound and 1/2 to get through armor - RM dying in 33,3% cases (All is dust states all save gets better !)
Against overheated plasma in open / cover
VS PM 2/3 to wound and 8/9 to get through FNP - 16/27 so 59,2% . In cover its 2/3*5/6*8/9= 80/162 - 49% STILL not much improvement.
VS RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to make it through invu - 10/18 - 55% to kill RM. In cover same (unless cover improves invu save which i don't think).
EDIT : Ok actually there is way more just like I said - so let's move to something you face VERY often on table - your good ol lasgun and thier cc weapons all S3 AP0 - just to make sure we don't raise case of cover.
VS PM 1/3 to wound 1/3 to make through armor and 2/3 to get past FNP = 2/27 ~~ 7,4%
VS RM 1/3 to wound 1/6 to make through armor = 1/18 = 5,5% , that is substantial difference there.
You can't use cover vs CC attacks or often you just don't have it or you are being shoot by guys who ignore it (iron warriors , noise marines etc). Having your terminator 2+ armor vs 1 damage shoots regardless of having cover or not - cannot be underestimated.
I can probably dig for more and more examples that actually see table (hellblaster vs plague marine) - but where is point ? I think we got already got share of guns where Rubric is equal or stronger than PM.
And still dishing out more damage with standard setup for both without special weapons. Aka bolter vs bolter.
You completely miss my point - As above examples prove I wasn't actually pulling facts out of nowhere. But let's even agree you are right - and so what ? Marginally more durable than RM, but hitting like a wuss.
Ok to beat the dying horse more - would you take Plague Marines as your ELITE CHOICE for any army except for DG ? Because people do use and to great benefit Zerkers/Noise Marines and Rubricae.
This is when you realize your not so great Plague Marines really don't shine at all. As it is now - probably getting cultists for 4 ppm to fill my troop tax is just superior.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw to actually stick to the topic - how strong is Defiler on Table now ? Didn't have any chance to field it.
I expect it to be total MVP especially with stratagem to reroll everything in both shooting and CC.
Ok I though we can move on with this, but since you really want more examples then let's point out those.
Against meltagun/multi melta - in open Plague Marine gets completly stripped out of armor :
So vs PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to get through FNP in case of damage 1 - but that is hardly case since D2 it's 8/9 already and gets worse for PM with more damage rolled.Only in 1/6 case PM gets better chances to survive (when damage rolled on melta is 1).
vs RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to get through armor. So yeah 10/18 to kill RM
Although we already spoken about plasma - let's dig deeper - as of now we got access to juicy helblasters. And expect those to be pretty popular. Hell your Plague Marines do experience them right in Dark Imperium starting BOX!!!
without overheating in open (and trust me you will in open pretty damn often with plague marines - read thier new legion trait / setup)
VS PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to pass FNP - 4/9 to nail one. 44% to go down. In cover it's 37% - so less durable in cover than RM in open - quiet powerful argument is it ?
VS RM 2/3 to wound and 1/2 to get through armor - RM dying in 33,3% cases (All is dust states all save gets better !)
Against overheated plasma in open / cover
VS PM 2/3 to wound and 8/9 to get through FNP - 16/27 so 59,2% . In cover its 2/3*5/6*8/9= 80/162 - 49% STILL not much improvement.
VS RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to make it through invu - 10/18 - 55% to kill RM. In cover same (unless cover improves invu save which i don't think).
EDIT : Ok actually there is way more just like I said - so let's move to something you face VERY often on table - your good ol lasgun and thier cc weapons all S3 AP0 - just to make sure we don't raise case of cover.
VS PM 1/3 to wound 1/3 to make through armor and 2/3 to get past FNP = 2/27 ~~ 7,4%
VS RM 1/3 to wound 1/6 to make through armor = 1/18 = 5,5% , that is substantial difference there.
You can't use cover vs CC attacks or often you just don't have it or you are being shoot by guys who ignore it (iron warriors , noise marines etc). Having your terminator 2+ armor vs 1 damage shoots regardless of having cover or not - cannot be underestimated.
I can probably dig for more and more examples that actually see table (hellblaster vs plague marine) - but where is point ? I think we got already got share of guns where Rubric is equal or stronger than PM.
And still dishing out more damage with standard setup for both without special weapons. Aka bolter vs bolter.
You completely miss my point - As above examples prove I wasn't actually pulling facts out of nowhere. But let's even agree you are right - and so what ? Marginally more durable than RM, but hitting like a wuss.
Ok to beat the dying horse more - would you take Plague Marines as your ELITE CHOICE for any army except for DG ? Because people do use and to great benefit Zerkers/Noise Marines and Rubricae.
This is when you realize your not so great Plague Marines really don't shine at all. As it is now - probably getting cultists for 4 ppm to fill my troop tax is just superior.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw to actually stick to the topic - how strong is Defiler on Table now ? Didn't have any chance to field it.
I expect it to be total MVP especially with stratagem to reroll everything in both shooting and CC.
Let me know since I want one .
I've not said the Plague Marine is going to come out tougher in every single comparison. I'm pretty sure every unit in the game will show varying survivability against competitors under different circumstances, but you have claimed "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT" to claim some overall advantage in the majority of scenarios when all I'm seeing is a small minority. When I saw Plague Marines are tougher, it's because against most weapons under most circumstances they take less damage, how are you defining being more resilient?
For the couple weapons you're listing, the Rubrics only win out under some of the circumstances regarding cover/weapon modes and not others and that seems to be the best Rubrics can claim in terms of resilience. Plague marines come out a good ways ahead against almost all of the weapons in each army's codex across almost every scenario. Take a scan down lists of the most used weapons like lascannons, missile launchers, bolters, flamers, plasma guns, sniper rifles, and hell even the inferno bolters themselves if you think they're great weapons and you'll get plague marines more likely to survive across the board. Toss in literally every mortal wound dealing source in the game and I don't see why you would think Rubric marines are so much more resilient that you should shout it out.
You said I shouldn't exclude cover but you seem to be saying we shouldn't include it for your calculations for a reason I must have missed. You do see the irony in claiming plague marines being 6% tougher in one scenario is "STILL not much improvement" but then saying for a difference of 1.9% the other way that "that is substantial difference there.", though right? Consistency is key.
Yes, barebones plaguemarines do put out less damage, but the unit also costs 18 less points if you aren't letting the plague marines take any upgrades. How would it make sense for them to be tougher, cheaper, and do more damage? I don't know if you've spent much time in the Thousand Sons tactica thread, but they aren't even running many Rubric Marines as troops. I like both and I play both, but I also understand which unit is more resilient, which does more damage, and which costs more.
Yes back on topic. I am kinda excited to see the rest of DG now. They mentioned got other Daemon engines, so maybe those will be hellbrute variants that will benefit from the legion rule on heavy weapons. I also heard rumors that DG Daemon Princes get DR.
Defilers are good on the table now with the reduced cost, bring them with twin heavy flamers. Those are amazing. But only thing is Defilers don't benefit from legion traits because they are not hellbrutes.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yes back on topic. I am kinda excited to see the rest of DG now. They mentioned got other Daemon engines, so maybe those will be hellbrute variants that will benefit from the legion rule on heavy weapons. I also heard rumors that DG Daemon Princes get DR.
Defilers are good on the table now with the reduced cost, bring them with twin heavy flamers. Those are amazing. But only thing is Defilers don't benefit from legion traits because they are not hellbrutes.
Well fair enough, given cost of Defiler it's completely okay they don't benefit from Legion traits. Twin heavy flamer ? what about scourge 3 additional hits at S12 AP-2 D3 sound like good deal and on top of that you save over 20 points ?
About other new Daemon Engines ... idk really. They may be just refering to various Bloat drone setups - as we seen there will be one for CC and another for some long range support I think. Of course would be cool, but sadly I think it's just Bloat Drone .
Unless ... this Plagueburst crawler is also Daemon Engine - which would be great since it would get FNP and 5+ invu !! That is my real hope.
And yeah those new spells seems to be actually useful , so it's not just miasma anymore. Legion trait gives some merit to Plague Marines now that they can rapid fire at 18" both Plasma and bolters - it essentially doubles thier damage output compared to normal marine between 12" and 18" ... so I suppose it's damage buff I was missing ! But then again only between 12" and 18". Still I will take something over nothing . More useful to me is ability to actually advance and shoot 2 blight launchers and still hit 3+ , this gives possible range of up to 35" and still hitting on 3+. That is neat actually.
@ lessthanjeff
Ok my dear heretic brother - peace . I will admit you have arguments going for you - i'm not blind. But you can see some going for me aswell I believe. And of course speaking about Rubrics or anything - still 4 ppm cultists beat gak out of any cult marines due to cost alone. And then you can spend your points anywhere from elites/fast atttack etc.
Given that DG did not lose access to cultists - then if poxwalkers wont drop in cost - it will be simple what DG players gonna field. Especially that those cultists can benefit from all nice Contagion spells aswell. Funny if you cast both new spells on them and use veteran of long war - then they can wound T7 targets on 3+ . Sure needs a lot of setup - but thats surprisingly dangerous.
And yes I forgot stupid Rubric tax for sorcerer - but he actually can cast something . Especially with Chaos familiar. And the bigger unit you take of Rubrics - the better. With Plague Marines it's opposite sadly due to system of special weapons.
Tell me LessthanJeff - what is setup you find to be best for PM, if you would want to field them anyway ? Champion with Plague Sword + plasma , 2 blight launchers and 2 mandatory bolter guys. With that setup they can actually dish out some dakka , but then again still just 5 wounds on table and cost 137 points ;x.
The problem with the defiler is that it is 4+ to hit for ranged as well as for melee. So that's why twin heavy flamers are amazing. Because those are auto hit. Auto hitting 2d6 hits without having to miss 50% of the time is amazing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most people usually wouldn't want to go too close to a defiler. Those defiler claws do d6 damage.
And yeah those new spells seems to be actually useful , so it's not just miasma anymore. Legion trait gives some merit to Plague Marines now that they can rapid fire at 18" both Plasma and bolters - it essentially doubles thier damage output compared to normal marine between 12" and 18" ... so I suppose it's damage buff I was missing ! But then again only between 12" and 18". Still I will take something over nothing . More useful to me is ability to actually advance and shoot 2 blight launchers and still hit 3+ , this gives possible range of up to 35" and still hitting on 3+. That is neat actually.
@ lessthanjeff
Ok my dear heretic brother - peace . I will admit you have arguments going for you - i'm not blind. But you can see some going for me aswell I believe. And of course speaking about Rubrics or anything - still 4 ppm cultists beat gak out of any cult marines due to cost alone. And then you can spend your points anywhere from elites/fast atttack etc.
Given that DG did not lose access to cultists - then if poxwalkers wont drop in cost - it will be simple what DG players gonna field. Especially that those cultists can benefit from all nice Contagion spells aswell. Funny if you cast both new spells on them and use veteran of long war - then they can wound T7 targets on 3+ . Sure needs a lot of setup - but thats surprisingly dangerous.
And yes I forgot stupid Rubric tax for sorcerer - but he actually can cast something . Especially with Chaos familiar. And the bigger unit you take of Rubrics - the better. With Plague Marines it's opposite sadly due to system of special weapons.
Tell me LessthanJeff - what is setup you find to be best for PM, if you would want to field them anyway ? Champion with Plague Sword + plasma , 2 blight launchers and 2 mandatory bolter guys. With that setup they can actually dish out some dakka , but then again still just 5 wounds on table and cost 137 points ;x.
The setup you mention is only 20 points more than your beloved rubrics and in my opinion better in every way .
I won't use Cultists or at least not more than one squad for objective camping. They don't fit my idea of DG and I don't want to paint or buy hundreds of similar models. And I like my PMs, they won't die from the first enemy looking at them and they'll put out some decent firepower - can't say that about Cultists. Poxwalkers are okay, as long as they're supported by Typhus, if Typhus gets higher points costs I agree pox walkers could become cheaper. Personally I hope for a suicide bomber stratagem for poxwalkers or cultists, but I won't hold my breath .
Eldenfirefly wrote: The problem with the defiler is that it is 4+ to hit for ranged as well as for melee. So that's why twin heavy flamers are amazing. Because those are auto hit. Auto hitting 2d6 hits without having to miss 50% of the time is amazing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Most people usually wouldn't want to go too close to a defiler. Those defiler claws do d6 damage.
I'm really liking Defilers, they have fantastic durability and melee output for their cost (at the price of crappy offensive stats). Any shooting they do I think should be treated as a bonus. Their main role is to waddle up the field sucking up fire, and then hopefully ripping apart things in combat. The scourge seems like a better bet, because once theyre in combat, 4 WS4 attacks arent enough to end an engagement quickly. With the flamers, youll fire them once, get stuck in, and then stay there and never use them again.
I do however, like putting combiflamers on them for a little extra spice at close range.
For the other shooty options, twin h-bolter wins out. Reaper autocannons are woefully underclassed with their 1 damage (which is regular autocannon's primary advantage over h-bolters in the first place).
A little bit of support also goes a long way. Demonforge is good, even for shooting (just hope you get lucky on that battlecannon roll!). Warpsmiths are awesome to suck up even more damage, and apostles make them annihilate anything they punch.
Im going to pick up a box of rubrics to convert in to shooty marines. Im undecided if I should run them as rubrics, or noise marines... Thoughts?
The wierd thing is that the most efficient build for spamming plasma guns with DG is likely the minum 5 man plague marine squad with 3 plasma guns and 2 bolters. This squad is bad at CC though. But the good thing about it is that it has 2 guys with bolters who can serve as abalative wounds. So, if its a shooting war, such a squad can stand at mid range at keep on pumping out 6 plama shots for quite a long time. Don't really need to worry much about morale too since it is just a 5 man squad.
If the daemon prince has DR and gives a reroll 1 aura. I can see it becoming the CC countercharge for a bunch of 5 man plasma plague marine squads clustered around it. Not sure if Rhino is really necessary in such a case. Once they get to that sweet spot 18 inches, they can stay there and keep shooting indefinitely. Such a squad doesn't really want to get into CC anyway.
And to the above poster, yeah Defilers are good now. Its just kinda sad they don't benefit from legion traits. :(
Eldenfirefly wrote: The wierd thing is that the most efficient build for spamming plasma guns with DG is likely the minum 5 man plague marine squad with 3 plasma guns and 2 bolters. This squad is bad at CC though. But the good thing about it is that it has 2 guys with bolters who can serve as abalative wounds. So, if its a shooting war, such a squad can stand at mid range at keep on pumping out 6 plama shots for quite a long time. Don't really need to worry much about morale too since it is just a 5 man squad.
If the daemon prince has DR and gives a reroll 1 aura. I can see it becoming the CC countercharge for a bunch of 5 man plasma plague marine squads clustered around it. Not sure if Rhino is really necessary in such a case. Once they get to that sweet spot 18 inches, they can stay there and keep shooting indefinitely. Such a squad doesn't really want to get into CC anyway.
And to the above poster, yeah Defilers are good now. Its just kinda sad they don't benefit from legion traits. :(
Yeah I was thinking same - until i realised that Blight Launcher is just so much better weapon. Actually if there is point in shooty PM - it's blight launchers.
Now with new legion tactic you can stand, move , advance and still shoot up to 24" and still hit on 3+ without need for any character supporting it with aura. On top of that they benefit from new warlord trait so they can reroll all wounds not just 1's !!
Blight launcher is just too good, honestly even if you really want to shoot vehicles with it and you don't have warlord to reroll all wounds - just go for veterans of long war - they will wound even land raiders on 4+ and rerolling 1's - pretty decent.
It's almost always better and hey ... regardless you won't kill yourself when shooting it !
Of course you will still end up with 1 plasma gun on champion - and honestly since you can now rapid fire from 18" - it's rapid firing before helblaster can . Which is neat.
Now CCPM's ... sound like great idea with all those new spells to make them super deadly with plague weapons - but there are still massive problems :
1. Low movement - 5 instead of 6 other marines have. Though mitigated by noxious blightbringer - sadly makes him mandatory if you footslog.
2. High point cost - even with really amazing weapons like flail of corruption - we are looking 29 ppm. And that dude is still 1 wound guy.
When it's all adding up - either need for blightbringer or rhino even small 5 man squad can suddenly explode in points.
128 points for champion with just plague sword (no fist) , 2 flails , 2x bubotic axe + rhino with just combi bolter = 202 points . And I went really easy here - no icons, no havoc for rhino or better combi , no fist on champion or more expensive things like Cleaver/Mace.
Sounds very expensive for just 5 bodies , of course in this case it's better to bring more in rhino or use it to transport other support characters like plaguecaster(110 pts ?). But then again your rhino with cargo will be ~~350 points lol. Given that Magnus is at 415 points and Mortarion will be similar - I can hardly justify such cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ Sgt.Cortez
Same can be said about Rubrics - they can take special weapons. But let's leave this comparison already .
Poxwalkers on the other hand are questionable at best - sure no moral tests is something, but I REALLY DON'T WANT to invest 161 points for typhus and 80 more for noxious blightbringer to actually get them to combat. Not to mention I want Typhus to actually support my Terminators and/or Deathshroud with his psychic abilites.
What is necessary for them is to get plague weapons - after all they are damn victims of plague - GW please WTF. And 5 points sound alright.
6 is too much because basically you will be always compared to 6 points troop boys - who swing on 3+ instead of 5+ , get 3 attacks instead of 2 (+ 1 sluga shoot) , have always S4 / T4. Move faster, can advance and charge - and most importantly can reroll charge.
And they don't have morale aswell as long as there is plenty of them or there is another mob near them - so they can use LD of it.
Honestly when I compare them to boys - even 5 points sounds like strech ... but then again boys are decent.
Pox for me is 4 ppm unless they get plague weapon rule - then yeah 5 ppm works .
@ Sgt.Cortez
Poxwalkers on the other hand are questionable at best - sure no moral tests is something, but I REALLY DON'T WANT to invest 161 points for typhus and 80 more for noxious blightbringer to actually get them to combat. Not to mention I want Typhus to actually support my Terminators and/or Deathshroud with his psychic abilites.
What is necessary for them is to get plague weapons - after all they are damn victims of plague - GW please WTF. And 5 points sound alright.
6 is too much because basically you will be always compared to 6 points troop boys - who swing on 3+ instead of 5+ , get 3 attacks instead of 2 (+ 1 sluga shoot) , have always S4 / T4. Move faster, can advance and charge - and most importantly can reroll charge.
And they don't have morale aswell as long as there is plenty of them or there is another mob near them - so they can use LD of it.
Honestly when I compare them to boys - even 5 points sounds like strech ... but then again boys are decent.
Pox for me is 4 ppm unless they get plague weapon rule - then yeah 5 ppm works .
Well, simply take a sorcerer in Termi armour to go with your termis . Typhus' aura helps poxwalkers, so for me it'd be a waste to not use him alongside them. I see whrere you're coming from with your comparison to boyz and as I don't have Orks in my gaming group I didn't know what they can do. But reading the forum it seems boyz are actually the only good thing in Ork codex, so maybe they are too good for their points? Poywalkers are much more resilient than boyz and can recover some troops. I wouldn't be opposed to 5points. For 4 points I'd consider them too cheap, or Cultists would have to cost 3points like conscripts then . It would also help poxwalkers to increase their squad size.
I think when the DG terminators come out, they will be the goto for melee, because they can deep strike, so they will fit better with Mortarion, who can move 12 inches. For melee you want something you can get into melee combat as soon as possible. Mortarion and deep striking terminators fit the bill. Slow walking pox walkers do not. Pox walkers are for bubble wrap. Enemy comes into melee with them when they are looking to break your bubble wrap to get to your guys behind. If opponent's list is actually beatable by a mass of slow moving pox walkers, then it can probably be beat by just about anything you throw together.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think when the DG terminators come out, they will be the goto for melee, because they can deep strike, so they will fit better with Mortarion, who can move 12 inches. For melee you want something you can get into melee combat as soon as possible. Mortarion and deep striking terminators fit the bill. Slow walking pox walkers do not. Pox walkers are for bubble wrap. Enemy comes into melee with them when they are looking to break your bubble wrap to get to your guys behind. If opponent's list is actually beatable by a mass of slow moving pox walkers, then it can probably be beat by just about anything you throw together.
Exactly entire footsloging idea doesn't work with Mortarion - he is just too fast for rest to keep up. So probably deep striking/embarked on land raider terminators combined with various weapon setup bloat drones - as HQ deep striking typhus and Demon Prince - those all can keep up.
And they better should keep up - or Mortarion will get wrecked alone. Poxwalkers with Movement 4 ... really will be too late to aid Morty.
Plague Marines can work in this setup - when embarked on Rhino , I wouldnt take them into Land Raider - it's better pack DeathShroud there or standard DG termies.
To some extent I can see Predators/New Tank/Defiler/Helbrute working along with Morty - because either they are reasonably fast at 8" and can shoot at same time at long range or just act like supporting artillery and holding objectives back at your base area - while still being able to throw in some precious lascannon shoots.
@ Sgt.Cortez
Poxwalkers on the other hand are questionable at best - sure no moral tests is something, but I REALLY DON'T WANT to invest 161 points for typhus and 80 more for noxious blightbringer to actually get them to combat. Not to mention I want Typhus to actually support my Terminators and/or Deathshroud with his psychic abilites.
What is necessary for them is to get plague weapons - after all they are damn victims of plague - GW please WTF. And 5 points sound alright.
6 is too much because basically you will be always compared to 6 points troop boys - who swing on 3+ instead of 5+ , get 3 attacks instead of 2 (+ 1 sluga shoot) , have always S4 / T4. Move faster, can advance and charge - and most importantly can reroll charge.
And they don't have morale aswell as long as there is plenty of them or there is another mob near them - so they can use LD of it.
Honestly when I compare them to boys - even 5 points sounds like strech ... but then again boys are decent.
Pox for me is 4 ppm unless they get plague weapon rule - then yeah 5 ppm works .
Well, simply take a sorcerer in Termi armour to go with your termis . Typhus' aura helps poxwalkers, so for me it'd be a waste to not use him alongside them. I see whrere you're coming from with your comparison to boyz and as I don't have Orks in my gaming group I didn't know what they can do. But reading the forum it seems boyz are actually the only good thing in Ork codex, so maybe they are too good for their points? Poywalkers are much more resilient than boyz and can recover some troops. I wouldn't be opposed to 5points. For 4 points I'd consider them too cheap, or Cultists would have to cost 3points like conscripts then . It would also help poxwalkers to increase their squad size.
I don't agree on poxwalkers being simple upgrade over cultists - cultists have base WS4+ even when number is under 10. On top of that they can dish out some ranged dakka and got movement of 6. Yep that is correct they have 50% higher movement.
Honestly depending on situation they are even better. Sure no Disgustingly Resilient, but at least they have any armor and in cover they can get pathetic 5+ - still better than pox.
And everyone got access to them not just DG - so them being more viable option than Pox alone is already bad. And that is the case. I prefer to pay 4 ppm for 6 movement ranged unit rather than 6 ppm for 4 movement zombies who are not even tough at all.
In fact I can easily see scenario where Cultists smash zombies - no Dark Apostole for them , no typhu9s for zombies etc. Raw autogun fire will just take down zombies. And even CC oriented cultists thanks to higher movement will charge first and probably kill tons of zombies T3/no armor/FNP.
And that is with equal numbers - what if there is 50% more cultists ? as they are 50% less expensive.(or 33% depends from which side you are looking).
So far I've still been running my plague marines with plasma guns. When you have nearby lords or princes they average more damage than melta guns and having the choice of weapon modes in games lets you play more safely unless you need the overcharge. I am interested in testing the new nurgle weapons though.
I've found that noise marines are actually the output kings and most of my lists that had a mix of rubrics and noise marines have slowly replaced rubrics with sonic weaponry. Their output it outstanding when you stack prescience, veterans of the long war, and endless cacophony. The fact that they do more killing even when they die just made them too appealing in the comparison for me. The rubrics always looked decent on paper, but they rarely got their points back and I found that smite was often too risky to justify it's use because it basically wipes the unit on a perils.
I don't agree on poxwalkers being simple upgrade over cultists - cultists have base WS4+ even when number is under 10. On top of that they can dish out some ranged dakka and got movement of 6. Yep that is correct they have 50% higher movement.
Honestly depending on situation they are even better. Sure no Disgustingly Resilient, but at least they have any armor and in cover they can get pathetic 5+ - still better than pox. No it's not, it's actually much worse as you always get DR, it can't be denied by AP unlike the cover/armour safe
And everyone got access to them not just DG - so them being more viable option than Pox alone is already bad. And that is the case. I prefer to pay 4 ppm for 6 movement ranged unit rather than 6 ppm for 4 movement zombies who are not even tough at all.
In fact I can easily see scenario where Cultists smash zombies - no Dark Apostole for them , no typhu9s for zombies etc. Raw autogun fire will just take down zombies. And even CC oriented cultists thanks to higher movement will charge first and probably kill tons of zombies T3/no armor/FNP.
And that is with equal numbers - what if there is 50% more cultists ? as they are 50% less expensive.(or 33% depends from which side you are looking).
We are clearly rating DR very differently. While my opponents constantly freak out about it you seem to have little success. Also I admit I'm only seeing poxwalkers with support, never alone. Since I agree that they're rather weak withouth support I'm not opposed to 5ppm. Cultists on the other hand... I can't see more use in them than minimal squads to fill slots and camp on an objective.
You can take 20 Cultists, lose 19 of them, and then pay 2CP to recycle the lot & drop them near your opponent's artillery after their screening units thought your deepstrikers had all committed already. That's pretty good. The mere presence of survivors of a largeish Cultist unit forces your opponent to keep their blocking units in place even after you've done your teleports, and makes them a target that really has to be wiped out.
Poxwalkers not taking Morale casualties opens up possibilities for hordes that don't need CP for recycling or Insane Bravery. Even Word Bearers Cultists near a Dark Apostle are not difficult to kill in sufficient numbers to ensure double casualties. And the fact that they have DG and can infect others adds a psychological edge.
lindsay40k wrote: You can take 20 Cultists, lose 19 of them, and then pay 2CP to recycle the lot & drop them near your opponent's artillery after their screening units thought your deepstrikers had all committed already. That's pretty good. The mere presence of survivors of a largeish Cultist unit forces your opponent to keep their blocking units in place even after you've done your teleports, and makes them a target that really has to be wiped out.
Poxwalkers not taking Morale casualties opens up possibilities for hordes that don't need CP for recycling or Insane Bravery. Even Word Bearers Cultists near a Dark Apostle are not difficult to kill in sufficient numbers to ensure double casualties. And the fact that they have DG and can infect others adds a psychological edge.
They're different.
Ok I give up - fair enough guys you can defend Plague Marines and Poxwalkers all day long . I think both suck big time. We all can have our own oppinion. When I mean suck - bad points value. As every unit given enough discount/increase start to be good/bad.
Let's proceed with those tactics :
How does Forgefiend work for you guys ? Even though i cannot field it as DG, I could take them as friendly nurgle renegade detachment. I really love how it looks <3.
Forgefiend... I've got four kits, going to do each of the four variants as I also love their aesthetics, but Lasherfiend is the only one I'm interested in getting done soon and fielding. I've already got several Squads of Havocs and neither dakkafiend feels like it'll be more useful than them :/
Assuming all other things equal, in a well rounded list, which would you prefer to take...
1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)
2. Replacing the above with two units of Obliterators (one Slaanesh for possible double-fire, one Tzeentch to benefit from a nearby Changeling)
Either permutation would result in my list ending up legal, and netting 8CP, but I am really conflicted as to which option to take for an upcoming GT.
dont forget havoc launchers on contemptors for that extra dakka
Assuming all other things equal, in a well rounded list, which would you prefer to take...
1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)
2. Replacing the above with two units of Obliterators (one Slaanesh for possible double-fire, one Tzeentch to benefit from a nearby Changeling)
Either permutation would result in my list ending up legal, and netting 8CP, but I am really conflicted as to which option to take for an upcoming GT.
Pretty sure I'd go with the Oblits, especially if you haven't already got a Slaanesh gunner unit that obviously wants to hog EC, and are taking Changeling anyway, and already have infiltration sorted. Cover is not dead for compact infantry gunner units, especially ones with good saves - Changebliterators teleporting into a Ruin or forest will be tough to shift, and ECblits will deliver some potent firepower where it's needed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm starting to reconsider how I approach building my list.
I like to field Daemons with my Word Bearers, they're useful and fluffy. Dropping Nurglings on objectives and using Heralds to buff & heal is going well. Some of the fast stuff is proving handy as well.
However, in games above 120power, I can get an extra CP from putting everything into a Brigade.
This does reduce HQ slots, but it also reduces HQ tax - sometimes I get by just fine with just five.
Now. My Legion Trait is widely regarded to be the weakest. So, if I'm building an army with so many Heretic Astartes and so many Daemons, the question of the use of Profane Zeal comes down to:
Which is better, re-rolling Morale checks with 10-11CP, or not rerolling Morale with 12CP?
Put another way - if Traits required you to use a cheap Stratagem at the start of the game to activate them, would you bother to use it? I can't say I'm that tempted with mine. Alpha Legion, on the other hand...
I'm looking forwards to my friends getting over 150power of stuff, so we can start playing games big enough to accommodate a Brigade and another detachment or two so I can have my Trait and daemons without feeling short-changed...
"Access to all Nurgle Deamons except for heralds of Nurgle" damn here goes my hidden tactic :(.
Ok I will share my GOD level tactic I was preparing...
So new spell giving +1 to wound and mortal wounds on 7's can be casted actually on anything that is DG not just infantry.
Now what is totally broken and can be done is take Herald of Nurgle even if i have to take Demon Detachment.
Herald not only gives our precious bloat drones +1S to make sure our flames auto hit with S7 and/ or other weapons they will use but can also cast ... Virulent blessing !!!! Both work only on Demons of Nurgle. Bloat drone is valid target !
Now effect is borderline broken.
Given that new CC oriented bloat drone probably will have way more attacks like ~~6-9 depending on profile.
It will jump to base strenght of 7 before weapon modifier +2 to wound rolls so basically on dice results of 5 and 6 it deals mortal wounds and on dice results of 5 and 6 it ALSO DEALS double damage. Now to make this even more ridiculous Lets throw in Demon Engine stratagem to make sure it also hits, as wounding won't be a problem.
So to sum this up this thing will hit very well, will wound probably everything o 2+ with rerolling 1's and just double damage of 5's and 6's and deal mortal wounds on same rolls!!
I dig it ).
Edit : This is way more potent than version of Plague Marines with plague weapons. Because with Vetaran of Long War - they will only make mortal wounds on 5+ and 6+ without doubling damage on those rolls.
I don't have idea what will be profile for this Combine type weapons , but I find it hard to believe it will be 3 attacks. More like 3 hits for attack or D3 at least.
Captyn_Bob wrote: I mean you can still take heralds.. whats the problem
There are 10 other characters in the DG list.. I feel like getting allt eh characters I want (Fabius too!) I won't have an army left.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Boosting strength on Bloatdrones does seem decent. Possessed too.
Yes basically any target that fight in Close combat like mentioned by you possessed that can benefit from both herald AND this new spell.
possessed can also like you mentioned jump to S6 and +2 to wound rolls and mortals on 5's and 6's and doubling damage on same rolls. I can see scenarios where your infantry wound Land Raiders and 3+s while also dealing tons of mortal wounds and double damage hits. Flipping LR in 1 turn .
So whatever is DG demon can really be pimped well. Though I really see Drones to be huge benefactors of Herald usage.
Even just simple +1S gives drone fair chance to flame even vehicles to death , not just infantry. Making from it mobile,versatile, tough and deadly unit. Bloat drone is huge MVP as always .
Mario, how are Possessed getting Mortal Wounds on a 5+, I thought that only applied to Plague Weapons?
Edit: oh, I see, it's from the Herald's spell
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, my Word Bearers - Daemons lists just got a new trick: use VOTLW in place of Putrefaction, no DG +1S, BUT THAT IS FINE, because when I'm trying to tip a tank I want to be getting my re-rolls from Exalted Champion to maximise my 5+. Shame there's no MW but still a nice combo.
So. Twenty Possessed, Nurgle Sorcerer to Warptime and Miasma them, Herald and ExCh and DA to provide other buffs. That's a Supreme Command deathstar right there...
...this wants covering fire from Nurgle Oblits, who can be feeding Epidemius. Shame there's no Herald on Plague Drone who could keep up with Warp Talons.
Could potentially trade Sorcerer and DA for DP. But you probably still want Warptime and Miasma... perhaps trade DA for DP, and put Sorcerer on Steed & give him Warptime & Death Hex?
But yeah, DG Possessed are looking lit. Especially if they get VOTLW to inflict double damage and MW on a 4+ to wound
Plague Surgeon has an aura that gives infantry units within 3 inches a reroll on a 1 for their DR save. And they are elite choice and quite cheap too.
And for those who were worried Mortarion might be singled out and gunned down by heavy weapons. Deathshroud Terminators have 4++ save, DR, 2 wounds, and they can take wounds for any character near to them. So, yeah, all those lascannon shots directed at Mortarion can be rediracted at the Deathshroud terminators first!
Blightlord Terminators are T5, DR, 2W terminators that can take the regular combi weapons stuff as well as the plague marine weapons like blight launchers and such and they are only a few points more expensive than regular CSM termninators.
The bloat drone with fleshmower sounds so fun to use! It adds 6 attacks to the Bloat drones attacks ... 6 !!! And its str user+2, so that's str 8 attacks on an uninjured bloat drone. This fleshmower will literally mow down stuff. lol Bloat drone has 3 attacks base, so at full health, it will do 9 Str 8 attacks. lol
The blight Hauler is a really interesting unit too. fast attack choice, moves 10 inches. 8 wounds, does not degrade, has 5++ as well as DR, packs 3 ranged weapons and 1 melee. And it gives a special aura that is 7 inches radius. Infantry units wholly within its aura get cover save! So, your 5 man plague marine unit close to the Blight Hauler is now a 2+ armor save as it trudges up the board. Nice! Its really cheap too. Under 100 points base. @@
The Plague burst crawler is really cheap too (its only slightly over 100 points base!) and quite hitty! Firstly, its really resilient, becuase it has T8, 3+ save and DR and 12 wounds. And it has a fair amount of heavy weaponery. You can swop the side sponstones into basically the equivalent of 36 inch range lascannons. And the Plague burst mortar is the heavy duty weapon. It does d6 hits, Str 8, AP -2. d3 damage at range 12 to 48 inches and you don't need line of sight to fire it! lol. With this, a gun line deathguard army is a distinct possibility.
Keep one unit near morty, one in reserve.
Morty survives T1,
Morty moves up (double, warptime) to join the second deepstriking unit to soak turn 2.
Following turn warptime the first unit to get them into position .
I just realized DG may actually be the first army where a brigade is the smart choice. Well... isn't an awful choice at least.
PM/poxwalkers fill troops, the new haulers look excellent as fast attack, elites is saturated with choices, and the new tank looks like it'll actually cost less than a quad las predator with its most expensive options.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Keep one unit near morty, one in reserve.
Morty survives T1,
Morty moves up (double, warptime) to join the second deepstriking unit to soak turn 2.
Following turn warptime the first unit to get them into position .
Aye but then that is 500pts for Morty, 400pts for two deathstrikes (one unit which is basically useless after turn 1) and another 100 for a sorcerer. You've already spent 1000pts on keeping Morty alive.
I'm looking at my DI stuff and thinking this isn't difficult to build up to.
Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion drop in and rack up kills for Epidemius, alongside the Daemon engines. Lord is a flexible scarecrow, very few warlords want to go near a potential 8 MWs. Nurgle Daemons and Plague Marines hold the line. Poxwalkers follow the self-evident Death Star, benefitting from Typhus and preventing deepstrikers from landing behind it and assassinating characters. Bloat Drones and Heldrakes help the Possessed troll with Cloud of Flies. Cultists get positioned to be a tempting target, then recycled. Come second turn's fight phase there should be a pretty nasty tide hitting the enemy lines, with mobile elements able to respond to their own deep insertion force. There's an argument to Warptime Typhus if he dragged his feet when the Possessed ran full tilt.
SilverAlien wrote: I just realized DG may actually be the first army where a brigade is the smart choice. Well... isn't an awful choice at least.
PM/poxwalkers fill troops, the new haulers look excellent as fast attack, elites is saturated with choices, and the new tank looks like it'll actually cost less than a quad las predator with its most expensive options.
What's hilarious is I've attempted a Brigade with Alpha Legion and I'm always shocked by how expensive things get when you add them all up.
I've been playing a brigade with alpha legion and I usually find I can get good size units and lots of upgrades as long as I'm willing to sacrifice a couple slots to something like single chaos spawn.
Like most people here, I am using some multi-legion list or another... not quite Chaos Soup, but several legions across detachments for effect, or specific purpose. A staple has always been some center-piece like Magnus, who supported does incredible work.
Looking at Mortarion's rules, I suspect a LOT of Chaos armies will be fielding him even in armies with nothing-else Deathguard in sight?
Did something tonight I haven't done in ages. I took Chaos bikers.
I single minimum squad with plasma and a combi-plasma. Ended up playing Necrons and they easily pulled their weight. A good screen for the Daemon Prince with wings and a great target for all sorts of stratagems.
I feel like I keep trying new things I haven't used in years in the codex and they keep performing really well.
lindsay40k wrote: Perhaps, but I imagine he'll tend to be accompanied by some of those Terminators who can tank for him.
Hmm. Will that mean you roll to hit and wound against Morty, he makes his saves and DR, and then the termie takes a MW against which it can also DR?
That'd be some extreme durability, the likes of which Swarmlord and Guilliman can but dream of...
It seems to trigger on hits, so when a char within 3" of a deathshroud is hit on a 2+ the deathshroud unit takes the hit instead. For 225 points for 3 I'm not finding them terribly compelling, deepstriking to protect Mortarion seems ok but at move 4 if I feel I must deploy them T1 for protection...well....ugh.
Mazzyx wrote: Did something tonight I haven't done in ages. I took Chaos bikers.
I single minimum squad with plasma and a combi-plasma. Ended up playing Necrons and they easily pulled their weight. A good screen for the Daemon Prince with wings and a great target for all sorts of stratagems.
I feel like I keep trying new things I haven't used in years in the codex and they keep performing really well.
Yeah, internal balance seems to be better with the three Codices released barring few exceptions here and there. Death Guard is looking to be solid too so I'm hoping for the best for AdMech next because lord knows they need it real bad.
After getting back into 40k recently, having previously left as 3rd edition came to a close, I got a chance to play my first game of 8th, and I thought I'd share with you my thoughts, as well as ask for advice.
The Lists So my list was as follows:
Alpha Legion: Battalion + Vanguard (2000pt, 7CP)
1x DP w/ Wings: MoS, Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic Talons (w/ Death Hex)
1x Chaos Lord: MoS, Power Axe, Combi-Plasma
1x Sorcerer: MoS, Jump Pack, Force Sword (w/ Warp Time + Prescience)
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
6x Chosen: MoS, 1x Combi-Plasma, 5x Plasma (in Land Raider)
5x Terminators: MoS, Icon, 5x Combi-Plasma, 3x Power Axe, 2x Power Fist
8x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powerfist, 1x Plasma Pistol, 7x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
8x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powerfist, 1x Plasma Pistol, 7x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
5x Havocs: 4x Lascannon
1x Land Raider
1x Helldrake: Baleflamer
His List (and I'm sorry I can only remember units, rather than wargear:
1x Bjorn the Fell-Hand
5x Wolf Guard: 5x Combi-Bolter in Razorback w/ (gun that did like 12 shots a turn)
5x Wolf Guard: 5x Combi-Bolter in Razorback w/ (gun that did like 12 shots a turn)
2x Venerable Dreadnaughts: w/ Storm Shields
5x Wulfen: 3x Storm Shield, 2x Other (in Stormfang)
1x Sicarin
1x Stormfang Gunship
5x Long Fangs: 4x Lascannon
The Game Set Up:
So set up was fighting up to 24" down the short sides of the board, putting us 24" apart. I advance deployed my Berzerkers, one behind his lines, one on the centre objective. I had my cultists in the back field guarding objectives, the Land Raider w/ Chosen + Lord on my right, the DP in the middle, the Heldrake to his left. The Havocs were on a tower in the middle, further back. He deployed his Lord and Dreadnaughts in the centre, the 2 Razorbacks just to their left, his Long Fangs in his tower in the back field, his Sicarin to the left of these, and his Stormfang to their right.
Turn Order:
This actually took quite a while - well, about two minutes. I finished deploying first easily, but we were playing the new rules, so we rolled off. I think we equalled with my +1 about five times, but finally he won. But then I seized the initiative (thank god!)
Chaos Turn 1
Movement: I identified as the main threats for the first turn the Sicarin and the Long Fangs. So I flew my Heldrake right up the centre, leaving them just before the Long Fangs. I then move one squad of Khorne Berzerkers up to the Sicarin, and leave the others in a building on the objective, waiting for him to come closer, confident he couldn't charge me there. Everything else stays still. Not having any good targets, I don't bring in my Terminators + Sorcerer.
Psychic: Nothing in range.
Shooting: I fire all of my lascannons (Havocs and Land Raider) into the Sicarin, bringing it down to 6ish wounds. The Baleflamer from the Heldrake kills two Long Fangs.
Combat: I charge the Long Fangs, they getting no hits, and wipe them out. I charge the Sicarin with my Khorne Berzerker, rolling first for my champion, who alone kills it. It does not blow up.
Space Wolves Turn 1:
Movement: I was hoping to stop his advance, giving me extra time to shoot his stuff, and it mostly works. He moves his Dreadnaughts forward. He disembarks his Wulfen, and sends them and his Lord towards my Heldrake. He disembarks his Wolf Guard in front of my back-line Berzerkers.
Shooting: The Razorbacks and Wolf Guard together finish off my Berzerkers, but it takes all their shots. Bjorn gets my heldrake down to 9 wounds.
Combat: He charges my Heldrake with his Wulfen, who end up killing it. It then explodes (hooray!), which kills off the one Wulfen, and does two damage to Bjorn.
Chaos Turn 2
I appreciate that he killed more in points that me, and I was hoping that my things in his back line would last longer, so now I hope that I can shoot to pieces anything headed towards me. I identify as the main threats his Stormfang and Wulfen.
Movement: I move the Berzerkers towards the Dreadnaught closest to the centre, and my DP towards the other. I also Deep Strike my Terminators, w/ Sorcerer just in front of his Wulfen.
Psychic: I cast Warp Time and Prescience on my Terminators, both of which go off. However, I perils on the Warp Time with a Double 6, which then does 3 wounds to my Sorcerer. Death Hex didn't go off on the dreadnaught.
Shooting: I over-charge my plasma, rapid-firing into the Wulfen, killing the one remaining w/o a storm shield, but he saves the rest. I shoot my Havocs into his Stormfang, reducing it to half health. I fire everything from the Land Raider into one of his Dreadnaughts, which saves everything. This will become a common theme.
Combat: I charge my Terminators into his Wulfen, where he takes one wound. In return they kill two terminators. I charge my Berzerkers into the middle Dreadnaught, and they deal three wounds. My DP manages to deal four wounds to the other Dreadnaught, which does five in return. Lame.
Space Wolves Turn 2
Movement: He disengages and embarks his Wulfen, which then flies down towards my end of the table. Bjorn moves towards my Terminators, and the Wolf Guard and Razorbacks move forward.
Shooting: Bjorn shoots at my Havocs, one of whom dies. The Stormfang fires at my Land Raider, which takes four wounds. I think the Wolf Guard and Razorbacks fire at some cultists, yielding limited results. Sure, cultists die, but they remain on the objectives.
Combat: Bjorn charges my Terminators, killing them all. The middle Dreadnaught finishes off my Berzerkers, taking no wounds in return. He interrupts for my DP, and kills him.
Chaos Turn 3
I should note at this stage that I've been very lucky with objectives, getting ones for all of the objectives I hold, including many bonus points for holding these. So at this stage I'm ahead of him about 10-3. My job now is just to hold off his advance, and hopefully survive before I'm tabled.
Movement: I disembark my Chosen, now finally having a shot at something, although it is the dreadnaughts. Nothing else moves.
Psychic: Prescience on the Havocs flubs.
Shooting: I shoot my havocs into his Stormfang, killing it. However, no Wulfen are killed as they pile out. I shoot everything from my Land Raider into the left dreadnaught. It takes no wounds. I over-charge and rapid-fire my Chosen into the other dreadnaught. It takes no wounds.
Combat: Nothing.
Space Wolves Turn 3:
Movement: He moves everything close to my lines.
Shooting: He shoots all his Razorbacks and Wolf Guard into my cultists, again thinning their number, but not getting them off any objectives. Something kills my Sorcerer. Can't remember what.
Combat: He charges my chosen, wiping them out with that + morale. My Lord heroically intervenes, hitting at the Dreadnaught ... doing no wounds. He charges his Wulfen, making a long charge into my dreadnaught, but does no wounds.
Chaos Turn 4:
At this stage I know I can no longer kill things, so it's just a matter of survival. Thankfully, I keep pulling objective holding for the objectives I have, including one for my cultists on the left, where now nothing in his army is anywhere near. So I just need to survive.
Movement: I retreat the Land Raider.
Shooting: I shoot my pea-shooters from my cultists, which do nothing.
Combat: My Lord attacks the Dreadnaught, dealing no wounds. He is killed in return.
Space Wolves Turn 4:
Here things become less important re: fine grain analysis. He moves everything towards my right flank. He takes out all but one havoc, his Wulfen again charges my Land Raider, doing minimal damage, he finally takes out the last cultist on one objective, and gets the others down, again to one group.
Chaos Turn 5:
I retreat the land raider, and hide the last havoc in the building. The leftmost cultist run the feth away, hoping towards a nearby piece of large terrain.
Space Wolves Turn 5:
He finishes off my Land Raider and the rightmost cultist squad. He whittles down my leftmost cultist squad to three.
Chaos Turn 6:
I am still away ahead in points, and now he's pulling Psychic-related objectives and character killing, so he can't score more. I just need to survive. I fire my last lascannon shot into his Wulfen, finally getting through ... until he gets two 6+ on his FnP. I run my last three cultists heroically behind a line-of-sight blocking terrain.
Space Wolves Turn 6
He finishes off my Havoc, and starts running towards the cultists, which he can't see.
Chaos Turn 7:
The game still does not bloody end! I hide valiantly my last three models behind this rock.
Space Wolves Turn 7:
With a command re-roll, he manages to pull off a 10" charge with his Dreadnaught, on a command point re-roll. He hits three times, but only wounds twice. But he gets the third with a command point re-roll, tabling me.
Reflections So, in the end it all came down to a series of one-dice rolls. If he didn't get the charge I would have won. If he didn't get the extra wound, I would have won. In that respect it was a close game, but in every other respects his army completely out-shone mine. He had me out-matched in shooting as well as CC. Being so vehicle-heavy, half my shooting (Chosen and Terminators) had few targets worth attacking, so basically did nothing. My anti-vehicle did a fine job finishing off most of his vehicles, but I couldn't crack those Dreadnaughts, with their 3++ save and 5+++ FnP. But my CC was just completely out-classed with his Lord, Wulfen, and Dreadnaughts. I just couldn't get past that 3++. So in terms of the lessons I learnt, I feel that deep-striking my Terminators turn 1 would have been best, even if they were just shooting rhinos. I should have done ... something with my chosen, but they were just completely zoned by the Dreadnaughts. I perhaps should have thought of more interesting ways to use strategems, but with the 3++ saves everywhere I can't really think what I could have done there. I think that more combo-charging, to take out the Dreadnaughts one at a time could have helped.
In terms of units, I was quite unimpressed with the Land Raider. It was really only useful for taking out the two tanks, but another Havoc squad could do that for 200 points cheaper. I found the Heldrake somewhat meh, but it is useful to get to those back line havocs and things. The terminators did very little, even with amazing buffs, but then I think that's just down to my opponent's army.
Advice Requested So, this guy is my main opponent, and this is basically the army he uses all the time. He's an amazing, but fastidious painter, so he would perhaps add a new unit to his collection once every few months. So at least I know what I'm up against. I was wondering, then, if anyone had any thoughts concerning how I could improve my army against him. Obviously it's a very elite army, so I can do without a lot of dakka (not that I had much anyway). I was thinking then thinking I should go hard-core anti-tank, but so much of it has 3++ saves, or -1 to hit, or 5+++ FnP that it's hard to justify more expensive single-shot guns that will just be stopped dead by the invulnerable save, or mitigated to nothing. Psychic is definitely a weak spot, so I was thinking another another sorcerer, and hope Death Hex comes off. So here are my thoughts on options:
DP: I need to send him after tanks, but it's hard to get him anywhere with 3 invincible dreadnaughts stomping around the field that can kill him quickly. So I don't know whether I should drop him.
Sorcerers: I do think I need another sorcerer, and give one of them Death-Hex. I don't know what other power to take (Prescience and Warp Time being on the other). I'll probably just use him, and a DP, if I take him, for smite.
Dark Apostle: I was thinking of running a Dark Apostle, just to help the Berzerkers. If I can't kill Dreadnaughts with big attacks, perhaps this will just help the death by a thousand pin pricks.
Terminators: Again, I don't know if these guys are worth it, being an elite unit that is just outshined by their elite units.
Berzerkers: I was thinking of cutting them up into 3 groups of 5x, and put them in rhinos, 10x in one, and 5x + Apostle in the other.
Spawn: I don't know if spawn would help as a cheap counter-charge unit that may hold up the dreadnaughts for comparably cheap. But they won't kill anything in this army.
Obliterators: Obliterators seem the best possible addition to me, just because the rate of fire might be useful against the Dreadnaughts, and, if they go high AP, against the tanks too.
Havocs: Dropping the Land Raider I need more Havocs. I was thinking either Missile Launchers, as AP is basically useless against this army. Autocannons are another choice, having higher rate of fire, and 2D can kill a Wolfen per shot. Again, the lack of AP means nothing against this army.
So I'm thinking my next list will look like this:
2000pt Alpha Legion + WE (9CP)
Alpha Legion Battalion:
1x Jump Sorcerer: Force Sword (Warp Time and Prescience) - to deep strike with terminators
1x Jump Sorcerer: Force Sword (Death Hex and Delightful Agonies) - hopefully to eliminate invulnerable saves
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
5x Terminators: MoS, Icon, 5x Combi-Plasma, 3x Power Axe, 2x Power Fist (I don't know about these guys, but then they can be dropped where I need them. Maybe combi-meltas?)
5x Havocs: Lascannons
5x Havocs: Missile Launchers
1x Heldrake: w/ Baleflamer
World Eater Battalion
1x DP w/ Wings: Talisman of the Burning Blood, Malefic Talons (for 10 attacks on the charge)
1x Dark Apostle
5x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powefist, 4x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
5x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powefist, 4x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
5x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powefist, 4x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
2x Rhinos
What do people think? Help me put these bad dogs down!
Land Raider's main utility over two Havoc or Predator units seems to be getting an attack unit through a deep strike screen. Honestly I'm not sold on it's practicality there yet. Autocannons excel if you face a lot of 2W infantry. Missile launchers... its said they don't outperform two Las + two HB. I did some rough maths last night and I think a krak missile is less effective against a 1W MEQ than a Heavy Bolter, so I think that probably holds true.
If you've got re-rolls from a Lord or Prince, Plasma outshines Melta. Death Hex is definitely a good choice - when it works, it's brutal, and the threat of it forces your opponent to change their plan. Don't forget you can use a CP to make the other Sorcerer suddenly know it thanks to Familiar - that's a really nasty 'gotcha'.
Dark Apostle has great synergy with Zerks. Don't forget your Icons of Wrath!
Zerkers definitely do need rhinos but are almost impossible to stop within them. I think I would probably stick to alpha legion over WE due to the possibility to infiltrate against the right opponent (this guy is the right opponent). Remember though that infiltrate happens after the seize. It sure if you played it that way based on how I read what you did.
Oblits are absolutely worth it. Make sure they have the mark of slaanesh. Fire twice. Veterans of the long war. Profit.
You're correct that the land raider and terminators just aren't really going to pull their weight.
Check out a 40 man cultist squad. The cultist strategems are not to be ignored, especially with an exalted champion and/or a dark Apostle nearby. Teleport them across the board, warptime and profit.
Thanks for the tips, guys. So I'll try a game without the Terminators, and maybe put in some obliterators.
This gives me a hundred to a hundred and fifty points to play with. Any ideas on what else I could put in?
Options include:
Noise Marines
Possessed
Helbrutes
Bikes
Raptors
Warp Talons
Spawn
Plasma Havocs
Heavy Havocs (a third squad)
Predators
Maulerfiends
Against this list, I'm finding it hard to decide.
Also, I will note that infiltrating Berzerkers means no Apostle/Exalted support. As for squad size for this, do people think 5/8/10/15? I'm running 2 squads of 8 at the moment.
Infiltration can work with DA/EC support, don't forget you can conga line and aren't obligated to move full charge & pile in distances. One big squad also uses fewer CP's.
I'm finishing up a twenty-strong Zerk unit for my Word Bearers... I'm going to test drive them with Warptime, but I ideally will cast that on a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis; I think the time is nigh for a Land Raider Spartan. It'll carry the DA & EC with them, to boot, with about 1.3% chance of one of them getting ate.
Noise marines are amazing, though not super impressive against this opponent.
I would drop the chosen and the second squad of oblits to include 10 noise marines and a maulerfiend
I like the idea of both Noise Marines and a Maulerfiend. I did some numbers, and, as you mention, Noise Marines don't look too good against this Space Wolves list. As for the Maulerfiend, I would love to add one, but I never like running just one vehicle. My view is that if you're going to run vehicles run 3+. Also, I'm not sure how useful a Maulerfiend would be against this invincible Dreadnaughts, wounding them only on 3s with their fists, and 5s on their more plentiful tendril attacks.
I'm leaning towards two groups of Obliterators, but if not Noise Marines then any other options? Are plasma havocs/chosen just not up to scratch?
My regular opponent is Space Wolves and she is rightly feart of my Plasma Chosen. They jump out of a Dreadclaw, with a Sorcerer on Steed and a Prince and supplying Prescience, Warptime (on the Dreadclaw, unless a screening unit means I have to get the Chosen closer to a target), & Death Hex. Pop VOTLW and Eternal Cacophony and it won't just be the false emperor who's a corpse.
Bonus: your Icon of Excess and two attacks each mean that a supporting unit charging you is going to get hurt.
I wonder how deathguard lists will evolve now that the new condex has leaks and we know what the new units are. Gunline focused around the new mortar tank? Advance slowly and steady up the field firing supported by characters and that fast attack new daemon engine? Assault focused with Mortarion, fleshmower bloat drones and plague drones leading the charge with blightlord terminators dropping in to support?
Seems like its better to focus on one aspect than trying to do everything.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Nah, Noise Marines need too much babysitting. Obliterators are the correct choice.
Care to explain that statement? They both hit on 3's, so you'd probably want a lord and to have prescience on them.
My assumption is that you're talking about the relative durability, or that oblits can alpha in without being killed first.
It's true that Noise Marines require a rhino competitively, but the same thing is true for zerkers and I don't know any player who is dismissing them as "needing too much babysitting so I won't take them"
Oblits are a good choice. I'm not saying you shouldn't take them. What I am saying is that there's no reason to take 2 squads of oblits instead of 1 squad of oblits and 1 squad of noise marines. They're good at different things and are both valuable. My issue with 2 oblits and zero noise marine squads is that you can't deal well with hordes at range. Sure you can send in the zerkers but if you do that turn 1, then you're trading a zerker for a couple of conscripts (or whatever chaff screening unit they have). Not usually a winning trade, no matter how many you kill.
And just fyi, there are a lot less units that can deal effectively with the amount of chaff units in the current meta than there are that can kill big things. If I want to kill a knight, Magnus, Mortarion or even a Maulerfiend can go to town. Killing chaff units is less well represented, so if I had to choose one or the other, I'd pick noise marines. They fire 3 times for goodness sake. Twice on your turn and then once on your enemy's turn when they die.
Noise Marines exist to clear chaff. They can, through volume of fire, shoot other things but you should be using them on hordes. Hell, I'm strongly considering tossing 20 in a Kharybdis with my Alphas so I can drop them in, shoot 60 Shots, then double tap them for a total of 120 shots on turn 1 and clear most screens for Zerkers and stuff to walk through and clear house.
I like the idea of both Noise Marines and a Maulerfiend. I did some numbers, and, as you mention, Noise Marines don't look too good against this Space Wolves list. As for the Maulerfiend, I would love to add one, but I never like running just one vehicle. My view is that if you're going to run vehicles run 3+. Also, I'm not sure how useful a Maulerfiend would be against this invincible Dreadnaughts, wounding them only on 3s with their fists, and 5s on their more plentiful tendril attacks.
I'm leaning towards two groups of Obliterators, but if not Noise Marines then any other options? Are plasma havocs/chosen just not up to scratch?
Prescience plus a lord and the noise marines are hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's. VOTLW and they're wounding other marines on 3's. 30 shots then becomes basically 19 saves on a squad of power armor marines.
Did you want to kill more? Spend 2 CP to do it again.
Does your opponent not want you to do that a second time? Feel free to shoot when he kills you, and you're still prescienced, so that's another 14 saves or so for him to make.
Havocs aren't bad, but you already have enough. Too much redundancy means you can't deal effectively with other threats you'll run into. My recommendation is to try not to tailor too much, even if he is your regular opponent. I still think that chosen are overpriced, but they're certainly not bad. Noise marines just do their job better. Even with no AP on their weapons and being more difficult to wound with, the triple fire is going to net you more wounds, and you can spread it out over more squads because of the timing.
Remember that you can re-roll hits and wounds with the mauler fiend for 1 CP. It's true that the dreads' 3++ is annoying, but you do a lot of damage with each failed save. A few bad rolls and the Maulerfiend will chew through even the storm shield dreads.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cephalobeard wrote: Noise Marines exist to clear chaff. They can, through volume of fire, shoot other things but you should be using them on hordes. Hell, I'm strongly considering tossing 20 in a Kharybdis with my Alphas so I can drop them in, shoot 60 Shots, then double tap them for a total of 120 shots on turn 1 and clear most screens for Zerkers and stuff to walk through and clear house.
That is pretty gross. Personally, I think 1 10 man squad is usually enough for what you need them to do, and the kharybdis is overcosted. The 72 point rhino is fine. Heck, I'd probably pay 200 points to pull a stunt like that off. But 300? Too much.
I don't think you really need to put noise marines into a Kharybdis. Their range is 24 inches and sonic blastors are an assault weapon. So, they can advance move and still shoot. If your purpose is to kill chaff, then I am pretty sure with a normal move, or an advance move, all the chaff will be within range of your guns.
Even if opponent gets first turn, noise marines get to shoot when they die, and unless he is playing such a turtling army, there should be at least some bubblewrap and chaff to kill if he kills some of your noise marines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Nah, Noise Marines need too much babysitting. Obliterators are the correct choice.
Care to explain that statement? They both hit on 3's, so you'd probably want a lord and to have prescience on them.
My assumption is that you're talking about the relative durability, or that oblits can alpha in without being killed first.
It's true that Noise Marines require a rhino competitively, but the same thing is true for zerkers and I don't know any player who is dismissing them as "needing too much babysitting so I won't take them"
Oblits are a good choice. I'm not saying you shouldn't take them. What I am saying is that there's no reason to take 2 squads of oblits instead of 1 squad of oblits and 1 squad of noise marines. They're good at different things and are both valuable. My issue with 2 oblits and zero noise marine squads is that you can't deal well with hordes at range. Sure you can send in the zerkers but if you do that turn 1, then you're trading a zerker for a couple of conscripts (or whatever chaff screening unit they have). Not usually a winning trade, no matter how many you kill.
And just fyi, there are a lot less units that can deal effectively with the amount of chaff units in the current meta than there are that can kill big things. If I want to kill a knight, Magnus, Mortarion or even a Maulerfiend can go to town. Killing chaff units is less well represented, so if I had to choose one or the other, I'd pick noise marines. They fire 3 times for goodness sake. Twice on your turn and then once on your enemy's turn when they die.
In smaller numbers, you aren't getting too much firepower, which means you ought to do a 10 man squad. Issue there is morale. THEN you have the issue of getting them anywhere without Infiltrate, which is better spent on Chosen and Berserker Marines.
Not only are there no morale issues with Obliterators, you don't have any issue of getting them anywhere what with Deep Strike and being able to advance and shoot. Add on potential synergy with Daemons and being not restricted to MoS.
Noise Marines aren't bad, but, like I said, they NEED more help compared to Obliterators. In a larger game where you have more options this isn't an issue, but in any game below 2000 I would pass.
In smaller numbers, you aren't getting too much firepower, which means you ought to do a 10 man squad. Issue there is morale. THEN you have the issue of getting them anywhere without Infiltrate, which is better spent on Chosen and Berserker Marines.
Not only are there no morale issues with Obliterators, you don't have any issue of getting them anywhere what with Deep Strike and being able to advance and shoot. Add on potential synergy with Daemons and being not restricted to MoS.
Noise Marines aren't bad, but, like I said, they NEED more help compared to Obliterators. In a larger game where you have more options this isn't an issue, but in any game below 2000 I would pass.
Morale saves your opponent a few bullets for the last couple of guys if they kill exactly the right amount. It's not nothing but it's not game breaking. Oblits are absolutely going to be MoS because they want to shoot twice also. A rhino will keep the noise marines safe with certainty. Very few armies have the luxury of being able to pop a rhino or two on turn 1, then still have enough firepower on top of that to murder a squad of power armor marines, especially if you utilize BLOS terrain effectively.
How, pray tell, do chosen or zerkers avoid this issue? Both of them need a rhino just like the noise marines.
Also to reiterate, oblits are great and I think it's best to include both oblits and noise marines. Because they are for different targets. Saying you don't need noise marines in favor of multiple squads of oblits just tells me that your opponents aren't using as many models as the competitive players are nowadays. The meta is horde.
Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.
Infiltrating either of those units relies on you going first. If you do, it's great. If you don't, they're vulnerable.
And again, if you think that's such a great strategy, just infiltrate the noise marines. I don't see why you view that strategy as ok for some units but not others.
I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think you really need to put noise marines into a Kharybdis. Their range is 24 inches and sonic blastors are an assault weapon. So, they can advance move and still shoot. If your purpose is to kill chaff, then I am pretty sure with a normal move, or an advance move, all the chaff will be within range of your guns.
Even if opponent gets first turn, noise marines get to shoot when they die, and unless he is playing such a turtling army, there should be at least some bubblewrap and chaff to kill if he kills some of your noise marines.
Need to? No. You don't ever need to do anything. However, if you want a team of 20 of them to guarantee surviving so you can fire off 120 shots, it's a pretty reliable way of doing so.
I had a most bizarre game two days ago.
My army contained:
Iron Warriors
Battalion Detachment
HQs Sorcerer: basic
Chaos Lord: bolter
Warlord Trait: cold and bitter
2 identical units of chaos marines
power fist, plasma pistol, plasma gun, the icon of vengeance, heavy bolter
1 Squad + Rhino
Powersword, meltagun, the icon of vengeance, heavy bolter
3 Obliterators in deep strike.
I played against Imperial fists and mechanicum, both players were sufficiently adept with their armies, yet I beat both without taking severe losses. Nearly whipping out the imperial fists and beating the mechanicum by points.
TROOPS
2 Identical 10 man tactical squads
Power fist, heavy bolter, meltagun.
UNITS
5 assault marines
Powerfist, melta bombs, 2 plasma pistols
5 Devestators
2 lascanons
2 missile launchers
In theory, both of them had much stronger rosters, the thing is that the majority of the killing power came from the chaos space marine squads (Combined results from the two games).
Are ordinary power armoured guys better and viable in this edition?
P.S.: The Obliterators killed Cawl on the first turn with a lucky deep strike, if not for that I would have probably lost against the mechanicum.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.
People are already way ahead of you, my friend. For funsies I even worked up a triple threat list that included Magnus, Mortarion, and Aetaos together, just to see what you could fit with them.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.
People are already way ahead of you, my friend. For funsies I even worked up a triple threat list that included Magnus, Mortarion, and Aetaos together, just to see what you could fit with them.
I imagine it could be pretty fun.
Magnus can Warptime Mortarion instead of himself to get into enemy lines. Then Magnus focuses on buffing his own Invul to weather the fire. The rest of the army is likely going to be focused on killing because Objectives will be hard to take.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.
Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.
Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.
Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.
Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.
Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.
I've been wondering about doing just this, but using a Dreadclaw instead of the K-claw to save some points as well as being easier to model (K-claw from FW is horrifically expensive, even recasts!). I only need room in the Claw for 10 guys, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2 Blastmasters. I'm definitely gonna try it at some point, whenever I get around to converting myself a Dreadclaw from a regular Drop Pod kit (I have a couple of spares now that pods are trash).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.
Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.
Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.
I more expect the Berserker Marines and Chosen to be able to do the job better for the price though is my issue.
Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?
I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).
They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.
lindsay40k wrote: Only one way to settle this - 10 each of Zerks and Noise Marines in the same Kharybdis, let them have a contest like Legolas & Gimli
Do the same with Plague Marines and Rubrics on an objective, see who's the last one standing
Said it before, will say it again. A shooty KAC alpha strike is better than a choppy KAC alpha strike. Making several 9 inch charges is a lot harder than plopping down a fire base and going to town on anything in 24 inches.
My last game was against Conscript-heavy IG. 20 Noise Marines took care of about 50 of them before getting shot up themselves the turn after the arrived (after morale, maybe 3 NMs survived.) As the Noise Marines died, Music of the Apocalypse allowed them to take out the Commissars and the Command Squad, leaving 3 Leman Russes, some Scions, and a lot of low morale troops to chew through before tabling him.
Heh, I was being silly - I saw your earlier posts, and I'm inclined to agree, Plasma Chosen are doing well as a deep insertion force for me. Remind me - do you give any character support to those Noise Marines, and is it one big squad?
Increasingly, as the importance of having a bubble wrap grows, I feel that having the dakka to clear away bubble wrap is also going to be very important. Especially because the advantage chaos has over imperium is that our biggest characters are very mobile and very hitty close up (ie, Magnus and Mortarion). And for them to perform at their best, they need to have a clear path to get to the juiciest part of the opponent army (where all the heavy support and gulliman or main characters are). This will inevitably be bubblewrapped tightly. (If you are facing a player who doesn't know how to do it well, he is probably not a very experienced player). So, having the ability to clear out the bubblewrap so that there is space for your Mortarion or Magnus to fly into and assault becomes important too.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I wonder how long it will be before people start coming up with Magnus + Mortarion lists. If its a 2000 point list, you only have slightly over 1000 points for the rest of your army if you take those two. But it might work. After all, either one Magnus or one Mortarion is already a wrecking ball, both of them at the same time is two wrecking balls! lol Maybe the rest of the army just needs to sit around and cheer the two daemon primarchs on is enough.
It sounds like a great idea until you realize that you are very CP gated at that point. Even if you do 2 supreme commands, you're talking 8 CP max (and that's with a lot of HQ's that you don't really need, unless you're just spamming malefic lords. Even if you are, it's still a lot of points. Most lists don't use that many lords, and most lists use them as HQ's in battalion detachments, so you'll need even more HQ's for your battalion.
If you could have a LOW slot in a battalion, I think it'd be extremely viable. If you could take 4 detachments, I think it'd be extremely viable. As is, I don't think it'll wind up being the best version of Chaos. I do think that distinction will involve Mortarion though.
I have been toying around with the super heavy detachment for 3 CP, but I don't think enough points are left to make a good list after 3 super heavies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.
Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.
Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.
I've been wondering about doing just this, but using a Dreadclaw instead of the K-claw to save some points as well as being easier to model (K-claw from FW is horrifically expensive, even recasts!). I only need room in the Claw for 10 guys, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2 Blastmasters. I'm definitely gonna try it at some point, whenever I get around to converting myself a Dreadclaw from a regular Drop Pod kit (I have a couple of spares now that pods are trash).
I fiddled with blastmasters and such, ended up just deciding on all Sonic blasters. Saves precious points and still functions very well when you're not worried about long range.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Chosen and Berserker Marines are the prime choice of either going into a Claw or getting Infiltrated. Noise Marines don't make a good candidate for either.
Noise Marines do just fine in a Claw. In fact, they're a pretty excellent choice. I've dropped to ten-man squads of Noise Marines to mid-table, saving a Warp Time for the Claw itself (instead of its usual Berserker passengers) to great effect.
Exactly. Being able to drop a huge squad of noise boys in a claw and double tap them is NOT to be understated.
I've been wondering about doing just this, but using a Dreadclaw instead of the K-claw to save some points as well as being easier to model (K-claw from FW is horrifically expensive, even recasts!). I only need room in the Claw for 10 guys, 8 Sonic Blasters and 2 Blastmasters. I'm definitely gonna try it at some point, whenever I get around to converting myself a Dreadclaw from a regular Drop Pod kit (I have a couple of spares now that pods are trash).
I fiddled with blastmasters and such, ended up just deciding on all Sonic blasters. Saves precious points and still functions very well when you're not worried about long range.
I get you, but I want the versatility of taking a potentially powerful weapon to deal with bigger targets. I realize that the single frequency shot from the Blastmaster is heavy and thus hits on 4's, but it's still not too shabby with d3 shots and d3 damage for each shot. Can certainly plink a few wounds off a tank or something. Plus the varied frequency could really do work against hordes. I've already ordered some cool-looking counts-as Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters from Spellcrow and I have a squad of regular CSM from a Start Collecting box eagerly awaiting them; I can't wait to try them out.
ZergSmasher wrote: I get you, but I want the versatility of taking a potentially powerful weapon to deal with bigger targets. I realize that the single frequency shot from the Blastmaster is heavy and thus hits on 4's, but it's still not too shabby with d3 shots and d3 damage for each shot. Can certainly plink a few wounds off a tank or something. Plus the varied frequency could really do work against hordes. I've already ordered some cool-looking counts-as Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters from Spellcrow and I have a squad of regular CSM from a Start Collecting box eagerly awaiting them; I can't wait to try them out.
It only hits on 4s if the blastmaster moved. This is the edition of snaking large squads back to an auramancer. The blastmaster never has to move.
Just thought I'd throw out my current thoughts on a Dark Mechanicum list, to see what kind of feedback I get (before I start buying lots of expensive models lol).
Daemon Prince with Wings - 2xMalefic Talons, Warp Bolter
Chaos Lord - Combi-Bolter, Chain Sword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
(or 1 squad of 10 and infiltrate them as alpha legion?)
Cultists x 30 - 15x Autoguns, 15xAuto pistol + ccw (not sure what the best way to field these are, thought a mix might work as that's the current thinking in boyz mobs haha)
Hellforged leviathan dreadnought - Butcher Cannon Array, Grav Flux Bombard, 2xHellflamer
(considering downgrading to a deredeo with butcher array + twin heavy bolter + Havoc Launcher)
Total points = 1878, or about 1790 if I take a Deredeo instead of Leviathan. So still some points left to spend in a full 2k list.
Thinking Alpha Legion would be a good pick for the trait, giving everything a bit more protection in the first couple of turns from long range fire. But any other suggestions are welcome!
lindsay40k wrote: Heh, I was being silly - I saw your earlier posts, and I'm inclined to agree, Plasma Chosen are doing well as a deep insertion force for me. Remind me - do you give any character support to those Noise Marines, and is it one big squad?
Figgered, but thought I would point out the issue just in case. Watched some videos from NOVA Open where players were running KACs with Berzerkers and groaned.
Would love to know more about how the Plasma Chosen are working out. 2x10 or 4x5? I assume you took them over Havocs for the extra attack, is that a fair statement?
I always bring a Sorcerer to cast Warp Time on the KAC & Prescience on the NMs. I usually bring a Chaos Lord to reroll 1s. The characters usually ride in the KAC, but am going to try them as Terminators in my next game.
FWIW, the Noise Marines are powerful, but they take a lot of wounds the next turn. I am starting to think there needs to be an additional threat to spilt up my opponent & soak up charges. Am thinking about combi-plasma Terminators, for obvious reasons. The indecision has to do with command points and unit tax. It's too expensive to take a brigade, and batallions don't come with enough CP. Endless Cacophony is a great stratagem, when you can afford it.
I'd think 3 squads of 6 would be best for plasma chosen, it gets you the max number of plasma and leaves 2 slots open for a chaos lord and sorcerer to join the ride.
I've been consistently using Noise Marines and Berzerkers in my Alpha Legion team. Berzerkers die having done almost nothing mainly due to pile ins and the inability to secure 1st turn without failure. Even if they manage to get the charge, they require expensive model support in the form of Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion to truly make their attacks worthwhile. All of these things are prone to getting shot off the field on your opponent's turn once he falls back from the combat so you better have murdered 500+ points worth of stuff.
Noise Marines meanwhile only require a Slaanesh Sorcerer supporting them with Delightful Agonies and Prescience. They still die easily but they return fire on death unlike the Berzerkers. They are also easier to keep alive using blocking terrain or vehicles, effectively limiting line of sight to your marines except by a few targets at a time. When infiltrated into cover, they now boast terminator saves while denying enemies the same benefit. Plus they have assault weapons for that extra run and gun when needed. What's not to love?
Yeah, berserkers are really hard to pull off. I have been trying, and honestly, not succeeding very well. If you are playing against any shooty list where your opponent knows whats he is doing, then using berserkers feels like a bit of a handicap.
Arkaine wrote: I've been consistently using Noise Marines and Berzerkers in my Alpha Legion team. Berzerkers die having done almost nothing mainly due to pile ins and the inability to secure 1st turn without failure. Even if they manage to get the charge, they require expensive model support in the form of Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion to truly make their attacks worthwhile. All of these things are prone to getting shot off the field on your opponent's turn once he falls back from the combat so you better have murdered 500+ points worth of stuff.
Try two rhino berzerker AND two maulerfiend or five spawns, they are four target you offer to the enemy and they can keep the same speed.
A unit of 8 with fiste Apostole&Champion in a rhino are under 400 points and they can dish out ( if you take them as world eaters detachment ) 74 attacks...matehammer says that are enough to kill Magnus or Land Raider.
You have to choose wisely your target, I used them in a few matches to charge screens and It was a big mistake, the subsequent fire fase took an heavy toll on them
lindsay40k wrote: Heh, I was being silly - I saw your earlier posts, and I'm inclined to agree, Plasma Chosen are doing well as a deep insertion force for me. Remind me - do you give any character support to those Noise Marines, and is it one big squad?
Figgered, but thought I would point out the issue just in case. Watched some videos from NOVA Open where players were running KACs with Berzerkers and groaned.
Would love to know more about how the Plasma Chosen are working out. 2x10 or 4x5? I assume you took them over Havocs for the extra attack, is that a fair statement?
I always bring a Sorcerer to cast Warp Time on the KAC & Prescience on the NMs. I usually bring a Chaos Lord to reroll 1s. The characters usually ride in the KAC, but am going to try them as Terminators in my next game.
FWIW, the Noise Marines are powerful, but they take a lot of wounds the next turn. I am starting to think there needs to be an additional threat to spilt up my opponent & soak up charges. Am thinking about combi-plasma Terminators, for obvious reasons. The indecision has to do with command points and unit tax. It's too expensive to take a brigade, and batallions don't come with enough CP. Endless Cacophony is a great stratagem, when you can afford it.
I'm just dropping 10 Chosen out of a Dreadclaw and rendezvousing with a Daemon Prince and Steed Sorcerer who bring Death Hex as well, it's still enough to terrify my regulars. My list already has three heavy support and we play power levels, so going with Chosen only costs +1 PL, fills out a Vanguard, and makes their Icon of Excess attacks that little more dangerous to charge.
Just finished twenty zerks and I think I'll be putting them in a Spartan rather than getting them a KAC. Twenty WE Zerks in a KAC is part of my long-term goals (they will rendezvous with Fiends to turn a screen into their can't-run-away cover), for my main WB army I'm looking at ten Noise Marines to join these lot in a KAC, and some Possessed to go in the DC to tank for a character who Summons in a KoS or Be'lakor.
I'll be getting another Dreadclaw to complete the Talon, probably for a BL Chosen unit that won't need any buffs due to LtGB.
I've been playing around with just using Bloodletters instead of Berzerkers in Rhinos or pods for that kind of thing. Unaligned characters (like Malefic Lords) can summon them, and they get +1 to their charge rolls after arriving with a 10 point instrument. If you've got a CP ready to go, you have something like a 2/3 chance of getting into CC, and they're not so expensive that failing a charge loses you the game. And then they get 2 S5 AP-2 attacks per 7 point model, which compares really well with Berzerkers even counting their second fight.
Summoning Bloodletters is probably an ok approach to deep strike counter/deterrence, but as an offensive play the requirement for the Summoner to miss their movement phase has pretty much killed it. I'm going to drop some Possessed and a Sorcerer out of a DC and try to get a KoS next turn, but even then it's turn three before your Daemon's likely to get a charge off. By that point, you could have just dropped 3 Obliterator Squads in and already done enough damage to super-charge Epidemius.
I suspect a lot of soemwhat convoluted Chaos setups are going to be judged by the yardstick of 'why didn't you just take loads of Obliterators'
Niiru wrote: Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?
I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).
They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.
Is this only weird to me?
I own, and have used both extensively, and feel like the Hellforged Leviathan is a terrific, and often competitive choice. Double Grav-Bombard has served me well as a super horde/bubblewrap clearer, or as a great anti-armor gun. Its also a great choice for the Demon Forge Strategem.
He is a bullet-magnet though. He quickly gets caught being so deadly that I would never take a non-Alpha Legion one, as he needs all the survivability he can get.
As to why he's more expensive than the Imperial version... the Hellflamers. Their flamers are really, REALLY good.
Arkaine wrote: I've been consistently using Noise Marines and Berzerkers in my Alpha Legion team. Berzerkers die having done almost nothing mainly due to pile ins and the inability to secure 1st turn without failure. Even if they manage to get the charge, they require expensive model support in the form of Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion to truly make their attacks worthwhile. All of these things are prone to getting shot off the field on your opponent's turn once he falls back from the combat so you better have murdered 500+ points worth of stuff.
Noise Marines meanwhile only require a Slaanesh Sorcerer supporting them with Delightful Agonies and Prescience. They still die easily but they return fire on death unlike the Berzerkers. They are also easier to keep alive using blocking terrain or vehicles, effectively limiting line of sight to your marines except by a few targets at a time. When infiltrated into cover, they now boast terminator saves while denying enemies the same benefit. Plus they have assault weapons for that extra run and gun when needed. What's not to love?
Berserker Marines attack twice. In a large enough group you don't need any character supporting them. I haven't a clue why you'd say they need that to make their attacks worthwhile.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?
I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).
They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.
Is this only weird to me?
The leviathan doesnt have a butcher cannon, its a butcher cannon array that has 8 shots instead of 4. I have been using my leviathan with double arrays for a total of 16 shots and have absolutely no complaints. Always go alpha legion for that -1 to hit.
I dont have a deredeo yet, but I want to get one. Do you use the viel for a 5++ for everything around it or do you go with the greater havoc launcher for some indirect fire.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Berserker Marines attack twice. In a large enough group you don't need any character supporting them. I haven't a clue why you'd say they need that to make their attacks worthwhile.
Because we're comparing them to noise marines who shoot three times from safety and can be psyker buffed for it. Even attacking twice has failed to achieve desired results, especially since it took one of those assaults to kill a single eldar jetbiker with 5 wounds. As mentioned, the inability to guarantee a 1st turn secure makes infiltrating them risky and even placing them outside of cover where they will not get shot leads to Pile-in problems getting them all into melee striking range. People resorting to mathhammer often switch in their head between cover and open fields without explaining how they magically reached those points.
Likewise, the rhino mentions and Magnus? Magnus moves 16" and can Warptime himself. If he's getting charged by your Rhino berzerkers, he wanted it. Rhinos take a while to get them into the fray and they're most devastating on that first turn blitz. Berzerkers do work, no question. Noise Marines simply do more work and can more easily remain alive to continue to do work in subsequent turns. 2+ armor with 5+++ FNP is a crazy amount of resilience for them, especially if you dictate through positioning who is permitted to fire at them. Of all the models and actual playtests performed, I can find no better use of the points than such a team, which can be further enhanced with reroll auras and cultist screens to protect them from close combat.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?
I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).
They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.
Is this only weird to me?
The leviathan doesnt have a butcher cannon, its a butcher cannon array that has 8 shots instead of 4. I have been using my leviathan with double arrays for a total of 16 shots and have absolutely no complaints. Always go alpha legion for that -1 to hit.
I dont have a deredeo yet, but I want to get one. Do you use the viel for a 5++ for everything around it or do you go with the greater havoc launcher for some indirect fire.
Hi, yeh I know the Leviathan (and Deredeo) use Arrays, I was just typing lazily. The Storm cannon still has more shots than the butcher array, for less points.
I dont feel berzerkers and noise marines are very comparable, they fill entirely different roles. Honestly, I think they work great together. Noise marines clear out the bubble wrap for the zerkers to charge, then zerkers rush in and take pressure off the noise marines, allowing them to keep shooting while the berzerkers run wild amongst the enemies line. As to how each squad gets there, I think noise marines in dreadclaw or infiltrating in, while the berzerkers come up behind in rhinos seems like a solid a plan. Havent used it yet (my noise marines arent finished yet), but on paper it looks good.
Berzerkers are great and have done amazing work every game so far, but it takes some practice positioning them right and setting up the charge correctly. I always take them in rhinos to absorb overwatch.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone used the Hellforged Leviathan or Deredeo dreads in 8th? How are they for their points, and what loadouts do you give them?
I ask because I'm tempted by one or the other, but I was a bit confused that my loadout of choice (Grav Flux + Butcher cannon) comes out at 354 points... a full 50 points more expensive than the imperial version (Grav Flux + Storm Cannon = 309pts).
They seem to be basically the same... ok butcher cannon is longer ranged, but there's less shots and worse AP so it balances out... certainly not 50 points better. The chaos version also only gets a 5++ against shooting, vs the imperiums constant 4++ which can be significant.
Is this only weird to me?
The leviathan doesnt have a butcher cannon, its a butcher cannon array that has 8 shots instead of 4. I have been using my leviathan with double arrays for a total of 16 shots and have absolutely no complaints. Always go alpha legion for that -1 to hit.
I dont have a deredeo yet, but I want to get one. Do you use the viel for a 5++ for everything around it or do you go with the greater havoc launcher for some indirect fire.
Hi, yeh I know the Leviathan (and Deredeo) use Arrays, I was just typing lazily. The Storm cannon still has more shots than the butcher array, for less points.
I own, and have used both extensively, and feel like the Hellforged Leviathan is a terrific, and often competitive choice. Double Grav-Bombard has served me well as a super horde/bubblewrap clearer, or as a great anti-armor gun. Its also a great choice for the Demon Forge Strategem.
He is a bullet-magnet though. He quickly gets caught being so deadly that I would never take a non-Alpha Legion one, as he needs all the survivability he can get.
As to why he's more expensive than the Imperial version... the Hellflamers. Their flamers are really, REALLY good.
I did include the hellflamers in the price (I actually thought I'd forgotten) but I saw them as more of a tax than anything... as they're basically flamers on a long range unit, and so are prett much just good for overwatch (except with the 8" range charging units can avoid them entirely). They are powerful, but still short ranged flamers and so could easily go a whole game without ever being fired.?
I own, and have used both extensively, and feel like the Hellforged Leviathan is a terrific, and often competitive choice. Double Grav-Bombard has served me well as a super horde/bubblewrap clearer, or as a great anti-armor gun. Its also a great choice for the Demon Forge Strategem.
He is a bullet-magnet though. He quickly gets caught being so deadly that I would never take a non-Alpha Legion one, as he needs all the survivability he can get.
As to why he's more expensive than the Imperial version... the Hellflamers. Their flamers are really, REALLY good.
I did include the hellflamers in the price (I actually thought I'd forgotten) but I saw them as more of a tax than anything... as they're basically flamers on a long range unit, and so are prett much just good for overwatch (except with the 8" range charging units can avoid them entirely). They are powerful, but still short ranged flamers and so could easily go a whole game without ever being fired.?
He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.
So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!
One unit of Nurglings in a competitive list...? Yay or nay?
On the one hand its 60pts sure to give your opponent a kill-point/first-blood, etc... but I am so leery of going to tournaments without something to mess with my opponent's potential deep-striking, or if needed deploy right on my opponents deployment line to inconvenience them, or maybe eat an Overwatch for redeployed Berserkers.
He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.
Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!
Nurglings deploy first, immediately pressuring opponent, especially if they have any infiltrators of their own. Rest of army deploys.
If enemy infiltrates, place Fiends to try to charge them without exposing them to fire.
Deploy Terminators in Teleportarium. Berzerkers in Spartan, aiming to make a first turn charge with Fiends that through positioning does not kill target until enemy turn. Noise Marines in KAC. Threat of potential Zerk KAC attack has encouraged opponent to screen; gun them down with sonics as the Zerks either ride through or use infiltrators as cover and pile-in speed-ramps.
He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.
Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!
I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.
So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!
Butcher cannon arry does seem a little overpriced when compared to the storm cannon (but not by much), but thats nothing new for chaos. If a chaos leviathan could take storm cannons, I probably would, but they cant so oh well. Since I keep mine in the back field, I go double butcher cannon. If I were to use the grav-flux bombard (and I got the arm so I might), I would probably keep one cc on him. Havent user this yet though.
He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.
Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!
I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.
This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?
So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!
Butcher cannon arry does seem a little overpriced when compared to the storm cannon (but not by much), but thats nothing new for chaos. If a chaos leviathan could take storm cannons, I probably would, but they cant so oh well. Since I keep mine in the back field, I go double butcher cannon. If I were to use the grav-flux bombard (and I got the arm so I might), I would probably keep one cc on him. Havent user this yet though.
He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.
Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!
I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.
This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?
Yeh, on my Leviathan draft I actually gave him 1x butcher array and 1x grav flux, for the maximum variety of shootiness. However it does kinda waste the butcher's range, or if at long range it makes the Grav unable to shoot. Tricky.
You also do seem to be paying a tax for the Leviathan's close combat ability (his 2+WS) even if you're only using him as a shooty platform with no CCWs. The Deredeo can take a butcher array + twin heavy bolter (lot of dakka there) plus either the hellfire veil for a 5++ bubble, or a havoc launcher for even more long range shots (that ignore LOS). Maxed out, the deredeo is about 100 points cheaper, and you seem to pretty much just lose the 2+WS (that you don't need anyway?).
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?
List I used was 5xLeviathan all with 2xGrav-Flux 2xHellflamers, Abaddon for re-rolls and ~20x Brimstones (though now it might be an idea to take them all as DG and have a DG Lord instead since DG ignore -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons, though Abby still helps in overwatch).
These guys just mow through infantry easy and will drop superheavies like a stompa in a turn if they are all firing on it.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?
List I used was 5xLeviathan all with 2xGrav-Flux 2xHellflamers, Abaddon for re-rolls and ~20x Brimstones (though now it might be an idea to take them all as DG and have a DG Lord instead since DG ignore -1 to hit for moving with heavy weapons, though Abby still helps in overwatch).
These guys just mow through infantry easy and will drop superheavies like a stompa in a turn if they are all firing on it.
Interesting point about the DG trait. I'd been thinking of Alpha being the only trait worth considering in my dark mech list, but ignoring the -1 to hit for moving might be useful too depending on the units I choose. Interesting.
Note that originally there WAS an answer to a question related to Helbrutes and the trait and it was answered hastily, but that answer has since been deleted and replaced TWICE with "we have sent this to the studio" because it was pointed out that the text wasn't capitalized and bolded like other keywords.
So if you happened to see the answer before they retconned it, I'm sorry to say that FW dreads do not currently receive the Death Guard legion trait.
Note that originally there WAS an answer to a question related to Helbrutes and the trait and it was answered hastily, but that answer has since been deleted and replaced TWICE with "we have sent this to the studio" because it was pointed out that the text wasn't capitalized and bolded like other keywords.
So if you happened to see the answer before they retconned it, I'm sorry to say that FW dreads do not currently receive the Death Guard legion trait.
From what you've shown there, it isn't retconned at all: they didn't confirm either way whether FW dreads get it.
I'm guessing the DG codex was written around a similar time to the CSM codex so they haven't had time to change the wording that they had to FAQ into the CSM codex.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Warning on the DG trait. As it stands it works on helbrutes, not HELLBRUTEs
GW confirmed on Facebook that traits work on FW dreads ages ago.
Ages ago as in the chaos codex release? Cos Death Guard is worded differently
I don't remember when, all I remember was warhammer 40,000 facebook discussing using tactics on FW dreads. Also, it isn't worded differently really, the only difference is the lack of bikes on the DG tactic, you have to remember these were probably written around the same time so they'd both have the same highlight mistake on the legion tactics.
mrhappyface wrote: From what you've shown there, it isn't retconned at all: they didn't confirm either way whether FW dreads get it.
When they literally delete the answer you were referring to, that's what I mean by retconned. They unconfirmed it and gave you this nonconfirmational answer instead, which indicates that currently it needs an FAQ to allow it.
mrhappyface wrote: From
I'm guessing the DG codex was written around a similar time to the CSM codex so they haven't had time to change the wording that they had to FAQ into the CSM codex.
Except they never FAQed it into the CSM codex. The FAQ in the CSM codex version added DAEMON PRINCE to the list, nothing else. The CSM codex has always allowed traits for Helbrute KEYWORD units with the capitalized and bolded text face. The DG codex trait is literally written differently from the CSM one.
Here's what another poster put in the Chaos facebook group explaining it:
Got a bit of a dilema here guys maybe maths needed?
So big nasty fellblade with a sorcerer rocking next to it
Do i go for MoT for weaver of fates for a 5++
or do i go for MoN for Miasma for -1 to hit rolls
Latro_ wrote: Got a bit of a dilema here guys maybe maths needed?
So big nasty fellblade with a sorcerer rocking next to it
Do i go for MoT for weaver of fates for a 5++
or do i go for MoN for Miasma for -1 to hit rolls
Depends on your likely opponents. Against BS2, Nurgle. Against BS4, Tzeentch. Against BS3, either.
Niiru wrote: Just thought I'd throw out my current thoughts on a Dark Mechanicum list, to see what kind of feedback I get (before I start buying lots of expensive models lol).
Daemon Prince with Wings - 2xMalefic Talons, Warp Bolter
Chaos Lord - Combi-Bolter, Chain Sword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
(or 1 squad of 10 and infiltrate them as alpha legion?)
Cultists x 30 - 15x Autoguns, 15xAuto pistol + ccw (not sure what the best way to field these are, thought a mix might work as that's the current thinking in boyz mobs haha)
Hellforged leviathan dreadnought - Butcher Cannon Array, Grav Flux Bombard, 2xHellflamer
(considering downgrading to a deredeo with butcher array + twin heavy bolter + Havoc Launcher)
Total points = 1878, or about 1790 if I take a Deredeo instead of Leviathan. So still some points left to spend in a full 2k list.
Thinking Alpha Legion would be a good pick for the trait, giving everything a bit more protection in the first couple of turns from long range fire. But any other suggestions are welcome!
Thanks
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
So the butcher array is a little stronger, and has 12" more range which is good, so it's probably a better weapon all together even with the 2 less shots.... but it's also 80 points. Storm cannon is only 50 points. The butcher cannon is almost in double-storm territory, and it's not THAT much better is it?!
Butcher cannon arry does seem a little overpriced when compared to the storm cannon (but not by much), but thats nothing new for chaos. If a chaos leviathan could take storm cannons, I probably would, but they cant so oh well. Since I keep mine in the back field, I go double butcher cannon. If I were to use the grav-flux bombard (and I got the arm so I might), I would probably keep one cc on him. Havent user this yet though.
He isn't a "long range" unit if you go double Grav, which is 18". I find that as a mid-range threat, who can close if needed, that they work best.
Thats true, but if you take double grav then you have no CCWs, so you wouldn't have any AP or anything if you get into melee. Which you will, I assume, at that sort of range. That's why I thought it would be better to keep the enemy at range... but I may be wrong, as I haven't actually played a game with dreads as yet!
I've played a full lev list against 3 different lists:
1. 2x Valdors + Malchadore + 50 conscripts + support tanks. This was a very close game but I was tabled in the end whilst my opponent was left with his 2x support vehicles.
2. Stompas + 60 orks + 6 meganobz + 2x Big meks. I tabled him with 4/5 levs still alive.
3. 2x Stompas. I tabled him with 3/5 levs left.
This sounds like a fun list. Do you give everything a gun and cc weapon or do you double up on some depending on thier role?
Yeh, on my Leviathan draft I actually gave him 1x butcher array and 1x grav flux, for the maximum variety of shootiness. However it does kinda waste the butcher's range, or if at long range it makes the Grav unable to shoot. Tricky.
You also do seem to be paying a tax for the Leviathan's close combat ability (his 2+WS) even if you're only using him as a shooty platform with no CCWs. The Deredeo can take a butcher array + twin heavy bolter (lot of dakka there) plus either the hellfire veil for a 5++ bubble, or a havoc launcher for even more long range shots (that ignore LOS). Maxed out, the deredeo is about 100 points cheaper, and you seem to pretty much just lose the 2+WS (that you don't need anyway?).
I was under the impression chaos leviathans had to to take the same range weapon if they take 2? Can ee mix and match the butcher cannon array and the grav-flux bombard?
Niiru wrote: Just thought I'd throw out my current thoughts on a Dark Mechanicum list, to see what kind of feedback I get (before I start buying lots of expensive models lol).
Daemon Prince with Wings - 2xMalefic Talons, Warp Bolter
Chaos Lord - Combi-Bolter, Chain Sword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
Noise Marines x5 - 4xSonic Blaster, 1xBlastmaster, 1xChainsword
(or 1 squad of 10 and infiltrate them as alpha legion?)
Cultists x 30 - 15x Autoguns, 15xAuto pistol + ccw (not sure what the best way to field these are, thought a mix might work as that's the current thinking in boyz mobs haha)
Hellforged leviathan dreadnought - Butcher Cannon Array, Grav Flux Bombard, 2xHellflamer
(considering downgrading to a deredeo with butcher array + twin heavy bolter + Havoc Launcher)
Total points = 1878, or about 1790 if I take a Deredeo instead of Leviathan. So still some points left to spend in a full 2k list.
Thinking Alpha Legion would be a good pick for the trait, giving everything a bit more protection in the first couple of turns from long range fire. But any other suggestions are welcome!
Thanks
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
I use 2 chainfist with soulburners on my contemptor and it works amazing! I tried going range with him, but my leviathan seems to handle that so much better, so I end up sticking with cc for the contemptor. I may even do the same thing with the leviathan once I get a deredeo dread.
I was under the impression chaos leviathans had to to take the same range weapon if they take 2? Can ee mix and match the butcher cannon array and the grav-flux bombard?
I edited this before I finished writing it, the FW errata has actually altered it to read "or may exchange both claws and take two of the following". So seems I'd have to take two butchers or two grav flux. That's a shame really. Deredeo seeming like a better shooting platform, unless you really want/need to double up on the firepower.
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
I use 2 chainfist with soulburners on my contemptor and it works amazing! I tried going range with him, but my leviathan seems to handle that so much better, so I end up sticking with cc for the contemptor. I may even do the same thing with the leviathan once I get a deredeo dread.
173-Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Force Staff
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
1 CP
So the idea is I drop the Sorcerer and Obliterators down turn 1 to start wrecking face, bringing up Epidemius's Tally. Then, hopefully, once the opponent has dealt with my Oblits, I'll have moved up my other units and be in position to murder hard.
One big question I have though-would a Lord be better than a Sorcerer? Sorcerer gives me Prescience on one squad of Oblits, as well as Smite or Death Hex or something, and some denial. Lord gives them all rerolls of 1, though...
I haven't used the Chaos version, but my Loyalist Relic Contemptor has been a Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist and that's been doing pretty great for me. I would recommend trying the same thing.
7 Havocs <Slaanesh> 159 Hs Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Frag, Krak, 4x Meltaguns
Asp Champ: Power fist
3x Quad Heavy Bolter Rapiers <Nurgle> 246 Hs 6x Marines, 3x Rapiers w/ Quad Heavy Bolters
3x Obilterators <Slaanesh> 195 Hs Fleshmetal Guns
Fire Raptor Gunship <Nurgle> 362 Fl
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Quad Heavy Bolters
Hellstrike Missiles
Battalion
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
14 Brimstone Horrors 42 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
Super Heavy Auxiliary <Alpha Legion>
Fellblade <Nurgle> 697 Low
2x Quad Lascannons, Twin Heavy Bolter
Demolisher cannon, Accelerator Cannon
Oooo, that's a lot of dakka! 66x S5 Ap-1 shots, 12(24)x S~8 AP-~2 D~2, 8x S9 AP-3 Dd6, 4x S8 AP-4 Dd6, etc. That's a lot of shooting!
My only concern is that, at 12 drops, you won't get first turn. That means that your opponant is gonna try and drop your fellblade (or at least drop it to BS5+) before you can get your -1 to hit down and without your fellblade you've lost all of your anti-armour capabilities since you can't rely on your Oblits for S9 AP-3 D3 attacks and your havocs aren't gonna get into range. I'd just be careful, I know the sting of not going first all too well.
173-Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Force Staff
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
195-3 Obliterators
1 CP
So the idea is I drop the Sorcerer and Obliterators down turn 1 to start wrecking face, bringing up Epidemius's Tally. Then, hopefully, once the opponent has dealt with my Oblits, I'll have moved up my other units and be in position to murder hard.
One big question I have though-would a Lord be better than a Sorcerer? Sorcerer gives me Prescience on one squad of Oblits, as well as Smite or Death Hex or something, and some denial. Lord gives them all rerolls of 1, though...
And what Legion would be best?
Is your Prince a Heretic Astartes one? If so, Word Bearers would enable him to drop a large aura buff. Though that's probably less useful than giving the Oblits Alpha Legion Trait.
If you aren't specifically going full Nurgle, you might like to go Tzeentch on the Sorcerer to take the +1 Smite artefact.
You might like to switch some Drones for the various Death Guard FA Daemon vehicle, they could finish off some units the Oblits didn't quite wipe out.
I was under the impression chaos leviathans had to to take the same range weapon if they take 2? Can ee mix and match the butcher cannon array and the grav-flux bombard?
I edited this before I finished writing it, the FW errata has actually altered it to read "or may exchange both claws and take two of the following". So seems I'd have to take two butchers or two grav flux. That's a shame really. Deredeo seeming like a better shooting platform, unless you really want/need to double up on the firepower.
Adding on to this, but specifically about the Contemptors (though it also relates to what I was talking to someone about the Levi/Deredeos)... Is the loadout I'm using for these any good? They aren't too expensive, but it would be even cheaper to go with double kheres and get more shots... but it means losing the CCW (same as double-grav Levi, ending up with no fists). So having the contempters moving around and shooting and maybe attacking units, they would only be punching at base strength and with no AP or D modifiers. Thats why I kept them both with 1 claw + soulburner... may need playtesting (though so does the whole list tbh)
I use 2 chainfist with soulburners on my contemptor and it works amazing! I tried going range with him, but my leviathan seems to handle that so much better, so I end up sticking with cc for the contemptor. I may even do the same thing with the leviathan once I get a deredeo dread.
However, the FW errata allowed for havoc launchers on contemptors now, so I could still use that model and convert the assault gun to a mortar....
I agree that the deredeo seems like the best option to go all out in shooting, the other dreads waste that WS2+ when they have only range weapons. Until I get the deredeo though, I will be sticking with double range on the leviathan and double cc on the contemptor.
In regards to the deredeo, has anyone used both the greater havoc launcher and the veil? A 5++ bubble seems good when taken as part of a gunline, but I am wondering if it is worth loosing out on that awesome indirect fire launcher.
7 Havocs <Slaanesh> 159 Hs Bolters, Bolt Pistols, Frag, Krak, 4x Meltaguns
Asp Champ: Power fist
3x Quad Heavy Bolter Rapiers <Nurgle> 246 Hs 6x Marines, 3x Rapiers w/ Quad Heavy Bolters
3x Obilterators <Slaanesh> 195 Hs Fleshmetal Guns
Fire Raptor Gunship <Nurgle> 362 Fl
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Quad Heavy Bolters
Hellstrike Missiles
Battalion
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
Maleific Lord 30 hq
14 Brimstone Horrors 42 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
13 Brimstone Horrors 39 t
Super Heavy Auxiliary <Alpha Legion>
Fellblade <Nurgle> 697 Low
2x Quad Lascannons, Twin Heavy Bolter
Demolisher cannon, Accelerator Cannon
Oooo, that's a lot of dakka! 66x S5 Ap-1 shots, 12(24)x S~8 AP-~2 D~2, 8x S9 AP-3 Dd6, 4x S8 AP-4 Dd6, etc. That's a lot of shooting!
My only concern is that, at 12 drops, you won't get first turn. That means that your opponant is gonna try and drop your fellblade (or at least drop it to BS5+) before you can get your -1 to hit down and without your fellblade you've lost all of your anti-armour capabilities since you can't rely on your Oblits for S9 AP-3 D3 attacks and your havocs aren't gonna get into range. I'd just be careful, I know the sting of not going first all too well.
Done forget 2d6 s8 -3 1dm OR 2 s14 -4 dm6 from the FB cannon
and another 10 6 -2 2dm from the fire raptor
Its a deceptive amount of dakka this list toruney is running the +1 if you drop first from upcoming chapter approved so it might not be to bad.
If they can kill it first turn with 26 wounds t9 and a 2+ save fair play to em
Idea is to also put prescience on the FB /FR for hitting on 2's and blow a cmd pt on ignore - for heavy weps if FB needs to move.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I haven't used the Chaos version, but my Loyalist Relic Contemptor has been a Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist and that's been doing pretty great for me. I would recommend trying the same thing.
So is that just one chain fist? I guess thats the imperial equivalent to the 1x claw + 1x kheres assault cannon (heavy 6, S7)
Latro_ wrote: Done forget 2d6 s8 -3 1dm OR 2 s14 -4 dm6 from the FB cannon
and another 10 6 -2 2dm from the fire raptor
Its a deceptive amount of dakka this list toruney is running the +1 if you drop first from upcoming chapter approved so it might not be to bad.
If they can kill it first turn with 26 wounds t9 and a 2+ save fair play to em
Idea is to also put prescience on the FB /FR for hitting on 2's and blow a cmd pt on ignore - for heavy weps if FB needs to move.
I was just thinking of one of my friend's tourney lists that is heavy anti-armour: he's got two Valdor Tank hunters with support vehicles that give +1 to hit and re-rolls to hit, nasty stuff. He'd most certainly bring your fellblade down turn 1 as he did to my Fire Raptor... and my Zerkers... All of them.
And I'm working with (mostly) what I own. I do have a lord, though, so which would be better?
And is Alpha Legion really the best? I'm probably gonna drop them in close.
I'd give it a few tries using DP as HA, the re-roll bubble, ability to hide behind units, and extra Hereticus spell is pretty good. Plus it'll free up points that could get more bodies in play. But if you want it CD DP, then you'll probably get more from a Lord than a Sorcerer... though access to Death Hex could make a huge difference, Thunderwolves are the bane of 3W infantry and access to DH will tame them.
AL is pretty good... you may be dropping in close, but it's not hard to keep a bit of distance from gunner units you can't delete. And if they move forwards to shoot at you from 12", that's less distance the Drones have to cover.
If there's likely a lot of terrain, IW might be decent. Their Stratagem can really frustrate a multi-shot 3W attack as well.
Nurglings aren't there to stop your opponent's deep striking units. They're there to stop your opponent's infiltrators. They do this marvelously because nurglings deploy during your actual deployment but infiltrators do so afterwards.
So you'll always be able to either:
A) secure a landing spot for YOUR infiltrators
or
B) deny your opponent the ideal spot for HIS infiltrators
If you are using them for step A, go for it 100% of the time. If it's for step B, it's a lot more situational but still good IMO. Especially because you can just throw them off in a corner, preferably out of LOS, if you don't need them.
luke1705 wrote: Nurglings aren't there to stop your opponent's deep striking units. They're there to stop your opponent's infiltrators. They do this marvelously because nurglings deploy during your actual deployment but infiltrators do so afterwards.
So you'll always be able to either:
A) secure a landing spot for YOUR infiltrators
or
B) deny your opponent the ideal spot for HIS infiltrators
If you are using them for step A, go for it 100% of the time. If it's for step B, it's a lot more situational but still good IMO. Especially because you can just throw them off in a corner, preferably out of LOS, if you don't need them.
They're also an A-grade unit in Maelstrom. Not only are they giving you a good shot at an objective on the first turn, they're also preventing the enemy from doing the same - both with infiltrators and deep strikers. Easily worth losing a CP or a few units' Legion Trait.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I haven't used the Chaos version, but my Loyalist Relic Contemptor has been a Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist and that's been doing pretty great for me. I would recommend trying the same thing.
So is that just one chain fist? I guess thats the imperial equivalent to the 1x claw + 1x kheres assault cannon (heavy 6, S7)
The way I saw it, I was pushing for melee, the Heavy Bolter was default and cheap, and makes it easier to kill Conscripts.
I go with just the one Chainfist though as, with the Storm/Combi-Bolter inside + the Heavy Bolter, light shooting and the charge is enough for larger targets, and chances are we are getting a reroll to hit somehow. So I figured I'd take the light shooting over the extra attack.
So there was a lot going on when I made the final decision but it paid off. The Kheres is pretty expensive is my issue and wounds MEQ all the same as the regular Assault Cannon, only pulling ahead at T6 and T7. At that point you probably want to smack it a small amount with your fist or Chainfist.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I haven't used the Chaos version, but my Loyalist Relic Contemptor has been a Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist and that's been doing pretty great for me. I would recommend trying the same thing.
So is that just one chain fist? I guess thats the imperial equivalent to the 1x claw + 1x kheres assault cannon (heavy 6, S7)
The way I saw it, I was pushing for melee, the Heavy Bolter was default and cheap, and makes it easier to kill Conscripts.
I go with just the one Chainfist though as, with the Storm/Combi-Bolter inside + the Heavy Bolter, light shooting and the charge is enough for larger targets, and chances are we are getting a reroll to hit somehow. So I figured I'd take the light shooting over the extra attack.
So there was a lot going on when I made the final decision but it paid off. The Kheres is pretty expensive is my issue and wounds MEQ all the same as the regular Assault Cannon, only pulling ahead at T6 and T7. At that point you probably want to smack it a small amount with your fist or Chainfist.
Twin heavy bolter is 17 pts, Kheres is 25 points... so it's a little more expensive, but I wouldn't say it was "pretty expensive" in comparison. They're both 6 shots, with the kheres having +2 strength but shorter range. I only just realised that the hellforged contemptor can also take a twin HB though, so I could save myself 7 points....
Hmm. This Stratagem, Beseech The Dark Gods. Is there any point to this whatsoever? Some sort of gimmick where you take an unmarked unit, and then surprise your opponent by marking it and then playing one of the four deity Stratagems? I mean, you burn a whole CP to do it, and you could have done it anyway and had an Icon to boot.
I notice Loyalists get a 'split into Combat Squads after the game begins' Stratagem. These both strike me as being to 'twenty-six Stratagems for you to use!' as a boss that requires a weekend of grinding to take down is to 'seventy hours of gameplay!'…
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. This Stratagem, Beseech The Dark Gods. Is there any point to this whatsoever? Some sort of gimmick where you take an unmarked unit, and then surprise your opponent by marking it and then playing one of the four deity Stratagems? I mean, you burn a whole CP to do it, and you could have done it anyway and had an Icon to boot.
Yeah, it would be much better if you could change an existing mark and if you could change it at any time during your turn: that way you could have Slaanesh Oblits fire off twice then switch to Tzeentch to be affected by the changeling. As it is, there really is no use for it.
I recently got myself a Start Collecting: Chaos Space Marines box (because I wanted a multi-part Helbrute and some Marines to turn into Noise Marines) and I was wondering what the best use is for the Terminator Lord/Sorcerer. Are Termie characters even worth taking? I was thinking of building the model as a Lord to drop in along with perhaps an infiltrating unit of Plasma Havocs or Chosen, or even Noise Marines, to provide rerolls without having to infiltrate himself. Is that a viable tactic? Also, what weapons work well for general use? Should I give him a combi-weapon or just stick with the combibolter?
On the other hand, a Termie Sorcerer could get into a good spot to throw a couple of spells without having to risk being sniped if going second. To say nothing of the fact that a 2+ save and an extra wound is always welcome on any character (although I can get an extra wound just by taking a bike).
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. This Stratagem, Beseech The Dark Gods. Is there any point to this whatsoever? Some sort of gimmick where you take an unmarked unit, and then surprise your opponent by marking it and then playing one of the four deity Stratagems? I mean, you burn a whole CP to do it, and you could have done it anyway and had an Icon to boot.
I notice Loyalists get a 'split into Combat Squads after the game begins' Stratagem. These both strike me as being to 'twenty-six Stratagems for you to use!' as a boss that requires a weekend of grinding to take down is to 'seventy hours of gameplay!'…
It isn't hard to gain CP as long as you buy Cultists. But it could be nice to have your Obliterators shoot twice, heal one of them, and then charge and then fight twice? You're right it only has synergy with other Strategems but the option exists I guess? I wouldn't bank on using it for the most part just like with the Combat Squad one. I can count on 1 finger the amount of times I've Combat Squaded, and that's zero.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I haven't used the Chaos version, but my Loyalist Relic Contemptor has been a Twin Heavy Bolter + Chainfist and that's been doing pretty great for me. I would recommend trying the same thing.
So is that just one chain fist? I guess thats the imperial equivalent to the 1x claw + 1x kheres assault cannon (heavy 6, S7)
The way I saw it, I was pushing for melee, the Heavy Bolter was default and cheap, and makes it easier to kill Conscripts.
I go with just the one Chainfist though as, with the Storm/Combi-Bolter inside + the Heavy Bolter, light shooting and the charge is enough for larger targets, and chances are we are getting a reroll to hit somehow. So I figured I'd take the light shooting over the extra attack.
So there was a lot going on when I made the final decision but it paid off. The Kheres is pretty expensive is my issue and wounds MEQ all the same as the regular Assault Cannon, only pulling ahead at T6 and T7. At that point you probably want to smack it a small amount with your fist or Chainfist.
Twin heavy bolter is 17 pts, Kheres is 25 points... so it's a little more expensive, but I wouldn't say it was "pretty expensive" in comparison. They're both 6 shots, with the kheres having +2 strength but shorter range. I only just realised that the hellforged contemptor can also take a twin HB though, so I could save myself 7 points....
7 points is more for the Loyalist Scum because we get Cultists to get our CP from and stuff. That's also close to another Combi-Weapon once you've done that, and if twice that's a Combi-Weapon. Just something to consider.
ZergSmasher wrote: I recently got myself a Start Collecting: Chaos Space Marines box (because I wanted a multi-part Helbrute and some Marines to turn into Noise Marines) and I was wondering what the best use is for the Terminator Lord/Sorcerer. Are Termie characters even worth taking? I was thinking of building the model as a Lord to drop in along with perhaps an infiltrating unit of Plasma Havocs or Chosen, or even Noise Marines, to provide rerolls without having to infiltrate himself. Is that a viable tactic? Also, what weapons work well for general use? Should I give him a combi-weapon or just stick with the combibolter?
On the other hand, a Termie Sorcerer could get into a good spot to throw a couple of spells without having to risk being sniped if going second. To say nothing of the fact that a 2+ save and an extra wound is always welcome on any character (although I can get an extra wound just by taking a bike).
I think a Termie Sorcerer with combi-plasma would be pretty nice: atm my sorcerers are either on a bike or have a jetpack and they tend to die pretty quickly without an invul.
ZergSmasher wrote: I recently got myself a Start Collecting: Chaos Space Marines box (because I wanted a multi-part Helbrute and some Marines to turn into Noise Marines) and I was wondering what the best use is for the Terminator Lord/Sorcerer. Are Termie characters even worth taking? I was thinking of building the model as a Lord to drop in along with perhaps an infiltrating unit of Plasma Havocs or Chosen, or even Noise Marines, to provide rerolls without having to infiltrate himself. Is that a viable tactic? Also, what weapons work well for general use? Should I give him a combi-weapon or just stick with the combibolter?
On the other hand, a Termie Sorcerer could get into a good spot to throw a couple of spells without having to risk being sniped if going second. To say nothing of the fact that a 2+ save and an extra wound is always welcome on any character (although I can get an extra wound just by taking a bike).
I think a Termie Sorcerer with combi-plasma would be pretty nice: atm my sorcerers are either on a bike or have a jetpack and they tend to die pretty quickly without an invul.
I'll have to convert myself a Termie combi-plasma then since the kit only comes with a combi-melta. Not that it's a problem; combi-weapons are usually pretty easy to convert. The kit comes with a neat-looking Force Stave that I'll have to use just for rule of cool, even though I think Axes and Swords are better.
So I attempted my first...attempt at a Brigade with Alpha Legion. Let's take a look at what I cooked up! Of course not tested yet and is a work in progress.
HQ:
x1 Biker Lord
. Combi-Bolter, Blade of the Hydra
x1 Dark Apostle
. The Black Mace or regular Maul depending if I think I need the Command Point later, Bolt Pistol
x1 Arkos The Faithless
Heavy Support
x3 Obliterators
x3 Obliterators
x1 Maulerfiend
. Magna Cutters
Plan should make sense from the get-go. Infiltrate the Berserker Marines and Apostle (or hide him in one of the Rhinos), Rhinos will rush up with my Chosen, Cultists can be infiltrated as a screen or hold home objectives, Maulerfiend makes itself look threatening and to be a "SHOOT ME FOR FIRST BLOOD" target (in fact, I don't expect it to make any points back at all), and Obliterators strike when and where necessary. Spawn just sit there and eat up points or hold an objective; I don't particularly care. However, I feel I still lack offensive power. Is it worth so many Command Points if I still lack Chosen or other offensive power in my list? Would it be worth just going with a couple of Vanguard Detachments to do a similar thing? Hard to say as I haven't played it yet, but I am loving the idea behind my list at least.
One big question I have though-would a Lord be better than a Sorcerer? Sorcerer gives me Prescience on one squad of Oblits, as well as Smite or Death Hex or something, and some denial. Lord gives them all rerolls of 1, though...
And what Legion would be best?
I would give serious consideration to a lord/sorceror on one of the steeds. You lose out on legion tactics, but become a daemon so benefit and add to the tally.
Alpha legion stacks with the -1 to hit spell from the Nurgle discipline and would be my go to for oblits.
Iron Warriors also pretty good.
I'm getting mesen a Spartan. It's gonna be a party van dedicated to Saint Angron; twenty zerks, Cursed Crozius Dark Apostle, and an Exalted Champion. I'd like to throw an endurance spell at it, but it's going to be very obviously Khornate. It'll just have to weather the storm with anger alone (and a Rhino going in front).
There's no point taking Laser Destroyers, is there? Especially if you usually play power levels? I think I'll take heavy Flamers, though. They'll be neat on an assault vehicle that can fire when in melee. (Presumably it can also Overwatch whilst engaged?) And I guess a combi-melta, for close encounters with dreads and monsters?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aight, here's the Word Bearers - Daemons list I'm going to start taking to all-comers:
Spoiler:
100 POWER:
BATTALION - 3CPS
Chaos Lord: Combi-Melta, Power Fist
Sorcerer on Steed: Combi-Flamer, Force Axe, Warptime, Death Hex
20 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
5 Havocs: 4 Missile Launcher, Combi Plasma, Power Sword
Rhino: Havoc Launcher, Combi-Bolter
VANGUARD - 1CP
Dark Apostle: Cursed Crozius, Voice of Lorgar
9 Berzerkers: 3 Plasma, Power Fist, Icon of Wrath
9 Chosen: 5 Plasma, Combi Plasma, Power Axe, Icon of Excess
Helbrute: 2 Fist, 2 Heavy Flamer
Dreadclaw
VANGUARD - 1CP
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed: Symphony of Pain
3 Fiends
Exalted Flamer
3 Bloodcrushers: Instrument, Icon
3 Nurglings
2000PTS:
BATTALION - 3CPS
Chaos Lord: Combi-Melta, Power Fist
Sorcerer on Steed: Combi-Flamer, Force Axe, Warptime, Death Hex
20 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
5 Havocs: 4 Autocannon, no Power Sword,, Combi Plasma
Rhino: Havoc Launcher, Combi-Bolter
VANGUARD - 1CP
Dark Apostle: Cursed Crozius, Voice of Lorgar
9 Berzerkers: 4 Plasma Pistols, Icon of Wrath
9 Chosen: 5 Plasma, Combi Plasma, Power Axe, Icon of Excess
Helbrute: Reaper Autocannon, Twin Heavy Bolters
Dreadclaw
VANGUARD - 1CP
Herald of Slaanesh on Steed: Symphony of Pain
3 Fiends
Exalted Flamer
3 Bloodcrushers: Instrument, Icon
3 Nurglings
Nurglings park on a no-mans-Land objective or troll infiltrators. Dreadclaw drops Chosen and Lord off to blast a choice target. Rhino zooms forwards to deliver Berzerkers and DA. Sorcerer and Herald run off with Fiends to rendezvous with Chosen, try to get the Dreadclaw into a juicy mass of bodies and either take down invulnerables or cast prescience or ecstatic Agonies; aim to get locked into combat with an infiltrator or deep striker who can't run away from the Fiends. Big Cultists run forwards into gunfire and get recycled, small Cultists and Havocs castle up. Helbrute, Flamer and Bloodcrushers get on general firefighting duties and draw fire from Rhino.
Well one of your Helbrutes is illegal. You get either the Heavy Bolter or Autocannon, not both.
I also don't understand what you're going for with the Chosen. Much too large of a squad and going to be a target. Mulch the squad down to 6 and forget the melee weapons. They're all about shooting. Buy more Berserker Marines if you want melee. I also wouldn't bother with the Combi-Plasma on the Havoc Champ. Maybe a Combi-Flamer instead as a charge deterrent.
Any point in putting close combat terminators in the Spartan? I love the aesthetic of it but they seem to be heavily outclassed by Zerkers or even Possessed.
saint_red wrote: Any point in putting close combat terminators in the Spartan? I love the aesthetic of it but they seem to be heavily outclassed by Zerkers or even Possessed.
Chaos termis are a shooting unit and really excel at that. Our cc units are zerkers or possessed if you are running an army that can't use zerkers. I mean termis can do some damage in close combat but their real damage is via their combis.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well one of your Helbrutes is illegal. You get either the Heavy Bolter or Autocannon, not both.
I also don't understand what you're going for with the Chosen. Much too large of a squad and going to be a target. Mulch the squad down to 6 and forget the melee weapons. They're all about shooting. Buy more Berserker Marines if you want melee. I also wouldn't bother with the Combi-Plasma on the Havoc Champ. Maybe a Combi-Flamer instead as a charge deterrent.
Ah, good catch on the Helbrute - I've yet to play a Points game in 8ed and my dakkabrute has been retired for its more power-efficient brethren, forgot what loadout it had! Accounting for that meant that the Havoc Champion had to downgrade all the way to combi Bolter, so that's that.
Every time I've landed my Chosen they've deleted a unit or two and then been a high priority target. Their double tap plus re-rolls means two or three more Bolter guys mean a few more enemy deaths, and also mean that if return fire gets two kills then there's still another two dozen plasma shots coming their way. I'm slowly building more combi-plasma guys, who'll replace four of the plasma gunners. Power Axe is what's on my champion model ATM, I like to have it there in the deep insertion unit just in case but might drop it in time.
There's no point in having more Berserkers, their Rhino is already full.
saint_red wrote: Any point in putting close combat terminators in the Spartan? I love the aesthetic of it but they seem to be heavily outclassed by Zerkers or even Possessed.
Chaos termis are a shooting unit and really excel at that. Our cc units are zerkers or possessed if you are running an army that can't use zerkers. I mean termis can do some damage in close combat but their real damage is via their combis.
Yeah, when you buy Termies you're partly paying for their ability to teleport - so putting them in a transport is inefficient. I tried them in a Land Raider, but without Assault Vehicle it's nowhere near as good a combo as it used to be. Spartan is absolutely for filling with a melee horde and driving through DS screens like you're the Red Army train in Goldeneye
I may start a new topic on this, but thought I'd try here first - What are people's opinions and thoughts on a ranking of the different dreadnought / daemon engine options?
Sonic Helbrute seems to be the most popular/strongest Helbrute build, to the point where I rearely see any other builds mentioned on here, but how is it in comparison to say... a contemptor with X loadout? Or a decimator with X loadout?
The units to "rate" would be (plus whatever loadout you recommend) -
Decimator gets a 5++, regeneration, can shoot out Mortal Wounds, can feed Epidemius & benefit from Heralds, and it doesn't loose accuracy like a Fiend - for +1 Power, that's a steal compared with a slower Helbrute.
I've been bringing along a Fistsbrute with heavy Flamers to fill out a Vanguard, no idea if it's actually any good as it's been a massive fire magnet every time! Nobody wants to risk a ruck with Zangief
Contemptor can go in a Dreadclaw, though it's weapons options are a tricky selection for deep insertion. I guess fists and soulburners?
I worry about the mediocre, degenerating accuracy/attacks of Fiends. I do want to get a lasherfiend built up soon - those +6 attacks will feed Epidemius nicely. And a dakkafiend for Daemonforge - I worry that its profile is such a fast degenerator, but with a Warpsmith, Grandfather's Blessings, regeneration, and a Herald of Nurgle, it should get a few good blasts in. Probably good psychological value, especially after your opponent fell shot of the kill shot thanks to its 5++. But... I always look at GB plays, and think, is that really a better use of 2CP than another Endless Cacophony? You can quickly burn off all your CP chasing random yields like that, when you *know* that Oblits or Plasma Chosen are going to wreck face for the same outlay.
I'm holding off on the Leviathan and Deredeo until we know if Fire Frenzy works on them. I've been looking at Deredeo and pondering using one for an attack unit... two Ectoplasma Batteries, with a Lord or DP re-rolling 1's, two heavy Flamers, and the hellfire veil. That's going to delete an MEQ unit every turn. Could be an interesting lynchpin for a human attack wave, or Helbrute onslaught. Interesting target for Warptime, if it's following a tide of Spawn and Rhinos. And if termies teleport in to counter it, and we ever get an FAQ update, fire Frenzy them to a thin paste.
My brute is normally a sonic brute. Its life span is usually about a turn. Maybe 2 if I am super lucky. But the few times it has lived I have gotten a few good shots out of the blastmaster and it does tend to take a few with it combat. I don't think I have remembered crazed once though.
My defiler, I know it isn't on your list but its a daemon, has done some work. Either absorbing enough damage to allow a good second turn firing from my army or ripping up some deep strikers. Also still looks awesome.
A mauler fiend is on my buy list for this month before we start a narrative campaign my club is going to run. The lashers are just a ton of attacks. And they will make a great distraction verse that rhino of possessed and a shield for the daemon prince as they go in to attack. Also an amazing target for diabolic strength. That can be 5 str 16 attacks+6 str 8 attacks from a single model. Very few things will live through that.
Has anyone compared three hellbrutes to three predators with the strategems that let you fire twice and add one strength and one wound? Which configurations are better? Or does it depend on the situation? Thanks.
A Helbrute with a solid loadout will probably be denied a juicy target during deployment and blown up on the first round. If you have three Predators, your opponent will blow one up on the first round. So you'll probably only get to use either Stratagem once, and only if you get the first turn. I think the existence of the Strategems makes both units into fine Distraction Carnifexes, but until we get confirmation on FW HELBRUTE units don't expect to get much use out of either unless you really take a lot of the units.
lindsay40k wrote: A Helbrute with a solid loadout will probably be denied a juicy target during deployment and blown up on the first round. If you have three Predators, your opponent will blow one up on the first round. So you'll probably only get to use either Stratagem once, and only if you get the first turn. I think the existence of the Strategems makes both units into fine Distraction Carnifexes, but until we get confirmation on FW HELBRUTE units don't expect to get much use out of either unless you really take a lot of the units.
On that front, it looks to be the same issue we have with the DG Legion Trait. The stratagem does not bold the name Helbrute, which implies that it only applies to the unit, and not the Keyword.
On the topic of Helbrute loadouts: A Helbrute with double fists, and heavy flamers tends to scare opponents. Not in a visible way, there are many more powerful units out there. Yet, it is great at destroying those pesky heavy infantry units that are meant to be hard to kill(TEQ, Oblits, etc.). The fists do straight 3 damage apiece, and that is more than enough to make anyone think twice. Use him as support for a Daemon Prince(re-roll 1s, or load him down with Prescience/Diabolic Strength to enhance the Helbrute), or interference for a Leviathan with double grav-flux bombards(I usually run him with a CQC option, but this is fun too). Plus, Heavy Flamers are great for thinning the horde, especially in overwatch. Loadout point cost is about the same as a fully kitted out 10 man CSM team(plasma guns, AC however you want him): 186 points.
As far as getting blown up in the first round goes, that is always going to be a question of your opponents target priority. I like the idea of using AL Berserkers with the AL stratagem. Start 12" away from your opponent, and make him/her cringe. See if he is still worried about a lowly Helbrute then.
Anyone had any joy with Chaos Bikers? I tried a unit of six with flamers (2 + a combi-flamer on the Sargent) in my demon engine list but they where underwhelming managing to kill a 4 genestealers before being gobbled up.
I really like the aesthetic of bikers cruising across the board blasting away, But can't seem to make they work.
My next attempt will be 2 * 6 man units (flamers again) to support 2 Bale-drakes in an alpha strike. I'm playing a renegade legion so they can assault after a full 20" move (not that they will do much damage in combat.
I took out a vindicator yesterday with my chaos lord on a bike with a power fist only to have it lost to an explosion causing six mortal wounds. Now has anyone had success with running two land raiders with khorne berserkers in them over rhinos?
Actually just regular Hellbrutes - Sonic Dread must be both Emperor's Children and Slaanesh, so can't be in (let alone affected by bonus the rule for) Death Guard Detachments.
kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote: Anyone had any joy with Chaos Bikers? I tried a unit of six with flamers (2 + a combi-flamer on the Sargent) in my demon engine list but they where underwhelming managing to kill a 4 genestealers before being gobbled up.
I really like the aesthetic of bikers cruising across the board blasting away, But can't seem to make they work.
My next attempt will be 2 * 6 man units (flamers again) to support 2 Bale-drakes in an alpha strike. I'm playing a renegade legion so they can assault after a full 20" move (not that they will do much damage in combat.
I have been testing a minimum unit of 3 with 3 plasmas (2 plasmas and 1 combi-plasma) as a fast response unit. I am using them kind of like you would use scout bikes after watching some of the NOVA games. The combi-bolters can do a lot of chewing up of screens and the plasma can help deal with some hard units. My last game was small, 1k points, verse necrons but the bikes earned their 100ish points back easily and were a great screen for my DP.
I do think flamers are good on them, but if you are going to punch stuff make sure to give everyone else a chainsword. That extra attack goes a long way.
Interesting views on the Helbrutes, seems to be a popular unit! Though the sonic blaster version still seems the most popular, I see a few of you do enjoy the pure fists/whips option as well. I haven't added up the points for that one yet, but I guess it becomes more valuable if you have other distraction units to soak up fire.
What would be the advantages of running a contemptor over a helbrute or a decimator? Is the contemptor survivable / deadly enough to be worth the added points?
Edit: Also, what would be the optimum Decimator build? Someone mentioned mortal wounds, but the Soulburner Petard is extremely expensive now... is it still work it's points now that it makes the decimator more expensive than a contemptor? Think its 210pts for a double petard decimator, for 4-12 mortal wounds a turn
. Better deepstrike him with hopefully soon avaible 
Just realized the Fire Rapter has innate -1 hard to hit.
>
.
