I posted this in another thread but I managed to score a bunch of raptor bits and the old Khorne Berzerker FW kit, so once I get back from vacation I will be putting them all together. I have a good feeling about them! I'm really excited to get my 1500 point army finished... I think it will do well. Lots of choppy murder death! Bwahahha!
Working on my Iron warriors an wanted some opinions for the "core" of my list I'm building
- Hellwright
- x2 Hellforged contemptor with dual hellclaw w/soul burner
- x2 10 man CSM sqads with plasma and rhino
- 20 man cultist squad
The hellwright and contemptors are expensive but I jut look at the soulburners and I just get a big grin
How are other people using music of the apocalypse (noise marines) do you make 1 attack regardless of what weapon you use no matter how many shots it has ?
Rydria wrote: How are other people using music of the apocalypse (noise marines) do you make 1 attack regardless of what weapon you use no matter how many shots it has ?
Nope use the weapon profile. Sonic blasters are 3 shots. Pistols are 1. Blastmasters are your shot choice so d6 or d3. It is pretty straight forward in that you do a shooting attacking like the shooting phase.
Rydria wrote: How are other people using music of the apocalypse (noise marines) do you make 1 attack regardless of what weapon you use no matter how many shots it has ?
Would be using it more if I could remember to do so. Having a rule trigger when you are removing the model just feels unnatural on anything other than a tank.
Rydria wrote: How are other people using music of the apocalypse (noise marines) do you make 1 attack regardless of what weapon you use no matter how many shots it has ?
Nope use the weapon profile. Sonic blasters are 3 shots. Pistols are 1. Blastmasters are your shot choice so d6 or d3. It is pretty straight forward in that you do a shooting attacking like the shooting phase.
That is what I thought someone in the best troop choice thread said it is just 1 shot regardless of weapon. So just wanted to make sure.
I'm gonna try to build a list around Fabius Bile and a unit of 20 of his cruel test objects aka Possessed.
Main thing in this army would be:
-Alpha Legion-Batallion
Sorcerer with Jumppack (Tzeentch)
Prinz with Wings
3x10 Cultists
20 Possessed
-————
Chaos -Supreme Comand Detachement -
Changeling
Herold on disc
Fabius Bile
Changeling + Legiontrait gives the enemy -2 on hit, if he try's to shot our Possessed / Prinz.
Fabius gives his buff to the Possessed, Herald his +1str aura + Boon of change. Sorcerer gives them a 4++.
So what do you think about our "core"? What should I add to the list to become "competitive"
That all looks solid to me! As for additions... I would be thinking about a deep striker to divide the attention of screening units - we don't want the super-possessed to spend the game munching through cannon fodder, and something with decent long range. The Possessed suggest a couple of Elite units, with a HQ to get an extra CP. Perhaps some Slaaneshi Terminators or Chosen, and a Helbrute? Also - do you anticipate many objectives games, because those Cultists are not going to hold anything?
Ir0njack wrote: Working on my Iron warriors an wanted some opinions for the "core" of my list I'm building
- Hellwright
- x2 Hellforged contemptor with dual hellclaw w/soul burner
- x2 10 man CSM sqads with plasma and rhino
- 20 man cultist squad
The hellwright and contemptors are expensive but I jut look at the soulburners and I just get a big grin
All that plasma and 2+ to hit Mortal Wounds look like they want a mobile Chaos Lord, be it bike or jump pack. Or maybe even a Prince. I guess you've got various other elites and HQ to bring in to make it a couple of detachments?
So does this fix our Arkos issue so Alpha Legion can utterly destroy the opposition.
Not really, The special ability still affects The Faithless not Alpha Legion.
Without the Lord bonus of reroll 1s I'm not sure about Arkos. The AL stratagem is so much better than his +1 to charge.
So does this fix our Arkos issue so Alpha Legion can utterly destroy the opposition.
Not really, The special ability still affects The Faithless not Alpha Legion.
Without the Lord bonus of reroll 1s I'm not sure about Arkos. The AL stratagem is so much better than his +1 to charge.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm using Bloodreavers rather than Blood Warriors for my Berzerkers. Much cheaper (twice as many bodies for same price) even if you have to really suspend your disbelief at bare-chested barbarian-looking guys being as tough as Astartes. My personal fluff justification for it is that they were on an isolated planet in the Eye of Terror, they fought each other all the time, which drew the attention of Khorne. Khorne enhanced their physiology to be able to withstand blows that would obliterate a normal human being, and then Kharn showed up and recruited them into his warbands. I'm actually going to perhaps write a short story about this in the Dakka Fiction section soon.
I did the exact same, so no shame in using Blood-Reavers. I found some 3rd party Chaos-y backpacks that looked very fleshy/organic, so I just slapped 'em on and went with a "their muscles are actually over-growing their former Black Carapace, etc...
That all looks solid to me! As for additions... I would be thinking about a deep striker to divide the attention of screening units - we don't want the super-possessed to spend the game munching through cannon fodder, and something with decent long range. The Possessed suggest a couple of Elite units, with a HQ to get an extra CP. Perhaps some Slaaneshi Terminators or Chosen, and a Helbrute? Also - do you anticipate many objectives games, because those Cultists are not going to hold anything?
yeah after a couple thoughts and reading, i gonna kick out Fabius. i´ll try to go Competitive with this list, cause i love the look and the idea of 20 Possessed surrounded my might and magic
so we need:
Changeling of Course
Herald of Tzeentch
1 Tzeentch Sorcerer with Jumppack
and our 20 Possessed. Sorcerer can buff them up to 4++, Herald of Changeling can buff Boon of Change, and the enemy gets -2 Hit on them (12"+ range).
Now i though about some Kyborgs, which also benefit from the Changeling + a Prinz would be nice as a Beatstick.
Slaanesh Terminators, Slaanesh Havocs, its all good. even raptors or warptalons (Demons!) can fit into the list. for now i have no idea what am i building around them
Rydria wrote: Played my first game with the 8th edition codex, the intoxicating elixir, diabolic strength daemon prince is a beast. Took stimulated by pain as my warlord trait, she ended up with 12 attacks by the end of the game and was going around slaughtering everything which dared to get within threat range.
12 str10 ap-2 D2 attacks is pretty sick .
The 10 man combi-plasma terminator squad also preformed as expected it killed a two 10 man tactical squads, an assault squad, a scout squad, a predator, a rhino and cato sicarius. (I failed to get prescience on turn 1 but the veterans of the long war + endless cacophony annihilated the tacticals) they then slaughtered a scout squad on the charge and killed cato sicarius and the assault marines on his turn when then piled in to help (though I lost 6 terminators to Cato doing mortal wounds :/)
Wasn't happy with the obliterators but I rolled awful for there weapons twice in a row :/
Not the best list but here it is 2000 points
Battalion Emperor's children Daemon prince – 180 (talons, intoxicating exlier, Diabolic strength) (warlord stimulated by pain)
Chaos Terminator Lord – 129 (Chainfist, combi bolter)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Music of the Apocalypse is clearly just 1 shot. It lets you make "a shooting attack". The shooting rules in the main rulebook are very clear that this means one dice. Compare the language used for Noise Marines to what Company Ancients allow, where you are able to shoot with a weapon's full profile.
Rydria wrote: Played my first game with the 8th edition codex, the intoxicating elixir, diabolic strength daemon prince is a beast. Took stimulated by pain as my warlord trait, she ended up with 12 attacks by the end of the game and was going around slaughtering everything which dared to get within threat range.
12 str10 ap-2 D2 attacks is pretty sick .
The 10 man combi-plasma terminator squad also preformed as expected it killed a two 10 man tactical squads, an assault squad, a scout squad, a predator, a rhino and cato sicarius. (I failed to get prescience on turn 1 but the veterans of the long war + endless cacophony annihilated the tacticals) they then slaughtered a scout squad on the charge and killed cato sicarius and the assault marines on his turn when then piled in to help (though I lost 6 terminators to Cato doing mortal wounds :/)
Wasn't happy with the obliterators but I rolled awful for there weapons twice in a row :/
Not the best list but here it is 2000 points
Battalion Emperor's children Daemon prince – 180 (talons, intoxicating exlier, Diabolic strength) (warlord stimulated by pain)
Chaos Terminator Lord – 129 (Chainfist, combi bolter)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Chaos Terminators – 554 (x10 Combi-Plasma, x9 Lightning claws, x1 Chain fist)
Sonic Hellbrute – 155 (x2 Blastmaster, x1 Power scourge)
Sonic Hellbrute – 155 (x2 Blastmaster, x1 Power scourge)
Oblitirators – 195
Helldrake – 168 (Bale Flamer)
It looks like you points are off on those Noise Marine squads they should be 111 pts each.
Did you get to use you use Endless Cacophony on the Oblits?
How did your Sonic Dreadnoughts perform? Any Crazed rolls or Fire Frenzy use?
I never got to use endless cacophony on the oblitirators they preformed very poorly overall, I never used fire frenzy since there was never anything that was closest that i wanted to shot with them.
I used endless cacophony once on the terminators, 1 other command point was used on a re-roll for a psychic test, and the rest where all used on veterans of the long war.
Dionysodorus wrote: Music of the Apocalypse is clearly just 1 shot. It lets you make "a shooting attack". The shooting rules in the main rulebook are very clear that this means one dice. Compare the language used for Noise Marines to what Company Ancients allow, where you are able to shoot with a weapon's full profile.
There are other abilities that do the exact same thing that have completely different wording
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sersi wrote: The Terminators sound like they were really effective; but man that's a lot of points. How did the Dreadnoughts do?
They where really effective, 1 killed Calgar 1 v 1 in close combat and together they killed a devastator squad in cover and put a stormhawk down to 2 wounds. They also put 5 wounds on the predator the terminators killed.
Dionysodorus wrote: Music of the Apocalypse is clearly just 1 shot. It lets you make "a shooting attack". The shooting rules in the main rulebook are very clear that this means one dice. Compare the language used for Noise Marines to what Company Ancients allow, where you are able to shoot with a weapon's full profile.
There are other abilities that do the exact same thing that have completely different wording
I mean, sure, but in this case the rules clearly lay out what an "attack" is, and it's not 3 attacks.
Dionysodorus wrote: Music of the Apocalypse is clearly just 1 shot. It lets you make "a shooting attack". The shooting rules in the main rulebook are very clear that this means one dice. Compare the language used for Noise Marines to what Company Ancients allow, where you are able to shoot with a weapon's full profile.
There are other abilities that do the exact same thing that have completely different wording
I mean, sure, but in this case the rules clearly lay out what an "attack" is, and it's not 3 attacks.
It also says under "Number of Attacks" that a shooting attack is dependent on the weapons profile; so 3 attacks. I've honestly never heard anyone question this, but this should be in: You make the call.
It also says under "Number of Attacks" that a shooting attack is dependent on the weapons profile; so 3 attacks. I've honestly never heard anyone question this, but this should be in: You make the call.
No, it simply never says that a shooting attack makes a number of attacks dependent on a weapon's profile. I mean, read that aloud to yourself -- even GW rules writing isn't that sloppy. What it does say is that when you shoot with a weapon, you make a number of attacks depending on the profile. Of course, MotA is specifically telling you to only make one attack.
Question for other people using blood warriors as zerkers. I got my hands on the eastfit/starter set aspiring champion dude with the jaw looking axe but can't find any backpacks that seem to fit him properly. What have others used? None of the other warriors have had any issues with fitting really.
doc1234 wrote: Question for other people using blood warriors as zerkers. I got my hands on the eastfit/starter set aspiring champion dude with the jaw looking axe but can't find any backpacks that seem to fit him properly. What have others used? None of the other warriors have had any issues with fitting really.
You need to use a bit of green stuff to make a connection point to the armour from the back pack then use a sculpting tool to make it look right (it is quite easy)
For appropriate looking, go with either possessed or dark vengeance chosen back packs since there mutated look goes well with the mutated chest plates on some of the blood warriors, i also like to shave down the shoulders and put actual power armour shoulders on them to make them look less like fantasy warriors and more like space marines. (though it really is up to you how far you go on the conversion)
anticitizen013 wrote: I posted this in another thread but I managed to score a bunch of raptor bits and the old Khorne Berzerker FW kit, so once I get back from vacation I will be putting them all together. I have a good feeling about them! I'm really excited to get my 1500 point army finished... I think it will do well. Lots of choppy murder death! Bwahahha!
I did very well with Chaops Raptors in 7E and I am hopeful they will be similarly great in 8th.
doc1234 wrote: Question for other people using blood warriors as zerkers. I got my hands on the eastfit/starter set aspiring champion dude with the jaw looking axe but can't find any backpacks that seem to fit him properly. What have others used? None of the other warriors have had any issues with fitting really.
You need to use a bit of green stuff to make a connection point to the armour from the back pack then use a sculpting tool to make it look right (it is quite easy)
For appropriate looking, go with either possessed or dark vengeance chosen back packs since there mutated look goes well with the mutated chest plates on some of the blood warriors, i also like to shave down the shoulders and put actual power armour shoulders on them to make them look less like fantasy warriors and more like space marines. (though it really is up to you how far you go on the conversion)
Greenstuff it is then, thanks!
Yeah I've been using the dark vengeance packs for the others. got a bunch of the things sat around (now sans backpacks and various other bits lol).
doc1234 wrote: Question for other people using blood warriors as zerkers. I got my hands on the eastfit/starter set aspiring champion dude with the jaw looking axe but can't find any backpacks that seem to fit him properly. What have others used? None of the other warriors have had any issues with fitting really.
You need to use a bit of green stuff to make a connection point to the armour from the back pack then use a sculpting tool to make it look right (it is quite easy)
For appropriate looking, go with either possessed or dark vengeance chosen back packs since there mutated look goes well with the mutated chest plates on some of the blood warriors, i also like to shave down the shoulders and put actual power armour shoulders on them to make them look less like fantasy warriors and more like space marines. (though it really is up to you how far you go on the conversion)
Greenstuff it is then, thanks!
Yeah I've been using the dark vengeance packs for the others. got a bunch of the things sat around (now sans backpacks and various other bits lol).
You should consider giving some of the blood warriors the dark vengeance power axe arm it looks really good on a berserker
Ir0njack wrote: Working on my Iron warriors an wanted some opinions for the "core" of my list I'm building
- Hellwright
- x2 Hellforged contemptor with dual hellclaw w/soul burner
- x2 10 man CSM sqads with plasma and rhino
- 20 man cultist squad
The hellwright and contemptors are expensive but I jut look at the soulburners and I just get a big grin
All that plasma and 2+ to hit Mortal Wounds look like they want a mobile Chaos Lord, be it bike or jump pack. Or maybe even a Prince. I guess you've got various other elites and HQ to bring in to make it a couple of detachments?
Yeah I planned on sticking a Jumplord in there as I haven't made a Biker lord yet as I'm using my 30k IW. I thought about a winged fleshmetal demon prince with sword, warpbolter, mark of slannesh for the +5 FNP psychic power, and unholy vigour warlord trait. I'm not sure if he's a good choice considering I've already invested so many points, most on my list are in the 1500-2000 range.
As for what all I've got
10 Lascannons marines
10 autocannon marines
10 missle marines
40 regular marines,
10 Jump marines
20 combibolter cataphractii terminators (10 PF 10 CF)
5 plasma gunners
5 melta gunners
5 flamers
3 quad launchers (figure I'll proxy them as other types of rapier platforms)
3 contemptor dreads
Autocannon & missle Deredeo
Leviathan
Whirlwind scorpius
3 Rhinos
Landraider Proteus
Typhon
Spartan
Mastodon
x2 sicarans, x2 predators, bikers, a fellblade and other things are on the to buy list for both 40&30k. any suggestions on what to add is appreciated
Thanks for making that thread Sersi, and that it got resolved.
Yeah, I'm definitely giving Noise Marines another look knowing that they get all their shots when they die. I was pretty leery of 19 point single-wound models before.
Ir0njack wrote: any suggestions on what to add is appreciated
Get some flyers in there! Fire Raptor or maybe something bigger (then give it Mark of Nurgle and throw on the power for a total of -2 to hit against your flyer).
Just seems like the next thing to add since you have so much ground support.
Ir0njack wrote: any suggestions on what to add is appreciated
Get some flyers in there! Fire Raptor or maybe something bigger (then give it Mark of Nurgle and throw on the power for a total of -2 to hit against your flyer).
Just seems like the next thing to add since you have so much ground support.
Hah! I hadn't even thought of that, Fireraptor with -2 to hit it sound just down right hilarious. I'm not sure if the lascannon or hellfire missles are the better choice. Lascannon are going to wound stuff easier and have a higher potential damage, but the range of hellfire missiles and the fact they do a flat 3 for damage makes me want to favor them as I've majorly whiffed lascannon damage rolls before.
Sersi wrote: With the Helbrute if Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?
From the codex:
"[..]or piles in and fights as if it were the fight phase if there are enemies within 1". [..]"
So, yes, it sounds like they get to fight again.
Wow...that's what I thought. Nasty with a power scourge; potentially 14 strength 8 attacks. That's really, good on a Sonic Dreadnought since its will strike first in follow on turns. With 8 wounds is should trigger at least once per game on average.
Ir0njack wrote: any suggestions on what to add is appreciated
Get some flyers in there! Fire Raptor or maybe something bigger (then give it Mark of Nurgle and throw on the power for a total of -2 to hit against your flyer).
Just seems like the next thing to add since you have so much ground support.
Hah! I hadn't even thought of that, Fireraptor with -2 to hit it sound just down right hilarious. I'm not sure if the lascannon or hellfire missles are the better choice. Lascannon are going to wound stuff easier and have a higher potential damage, but the range of hellfire missiles and the fact they do a flat 3 for damage makes me want to favor them as I've majorly whiffed lascannon damage rolls before.
If you play against a lot of T8 models then take Lascannons, if not take the missiles. (I personally play against a lot of toughness 8 high wound models so I took the Lascannons)
Sersi wrote: With the Helbrute if Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?
From the codex:
"[..]or piles in and fights as if it were the fight phase if there are enemies within 1". [..]"
So, yes, it sounds like they get to fight again.
Wow...that's what I thought. Nasty with a power scourge; potentially 14 strength 8 attacks. That's really, good on a Sonic Dreadnought since its will strike first in follow on turns.
Ir0njack wrote: any suggestions on what to add is appreciated
Get some flyers in there! Fire Raptor or maybe something bigger (then give it Mark of Nurgle and throw on the power for a total of -2 to hit against your flyer).
Just seems like the next thing to add since you have so much ground support.
Hah! I hadn't even thought of that, Fireraptor with -2 to hit it sound just down right hilarious. I'm not sure if the lascannon or hellfire missles are the better choice. Lascannon are going to wound stuff easier and have a higher potential damage, but the range of hellfire missiles and the fact they do a flat 3 for damage makes me want to favor them as I've majorly whiffed lascannon damage rolls before.
If you play against a lot of T8 models then take Lascannons, if not take the missiles. (I personally play against a lot of toughness 8 high wound models so I took the Lascannons)
Lascannons, while expensive, give you 4 shots. Missiles are only Heavy 2.
Sersi wrote: With the Helbrute if Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?
From the codex:
"[..]or piles in and fights as if it were the fight phase if there are enemies within 1". [..]"
So, yes, it sounds like they get to fight again.
Wow...that's what I thought. Nasty with a power scourge; potentially 14 strength 8 attacks. That's really, good on a Sonic Dreadnought since its will strike first in follow on turns. With 8 wounds is should trigger at least once per game on average.
i've been thinking similar as well, except i was planning on one with 2 blastmaster + missile launcher and a fwq decimator, or 2 brutes with 2 blast and scourge, undecided yet
Thanks for making that thread Sersi, and that it got resolved.
Yeah, I'm definitely giving Noise Marines another look knowing that they get all their shots when they die. I was pretty leery of 19 point single-wound models before.
They are really good, I understand where you're coming from but they lack allot of weaknesses regular tactical marines possess, you really need to use them in practice to appreciate them.
I've had noise marines beat an equal number of terminators because of death to the false emperor + music of the apocalypse killing the squads that failed to charge it was amazing.
Sersi wrote: With the Helbrute if Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?
From the codex:
"[..]or piles in and fights as if it were the fight phase if there are enemies within 1". [..]"
So, yes, it sounds like they get to fight again.
Wow...that's what I thought. Nasty with a power scourge; potentially 14 strength 8 attacks. That's really, good on a Sonic Dreadnought since its will strike first in follow on turns. With 8 wounds is should trigger at least once per game on average.
The power scourge is soooo good, I'd honestly never swap it for a missile launcher even if the missile launcher makes fire frenzy much better just because the versatility duel blastmaster + scourge provides.
Sersi wrote: With the Helbrute if Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?
From the codex:
"[..]or piles in and fights as if it were the fight phase if there are enemies within 1". [..]"
So, yes, it sounds like they get to fight again.
Wow...that's what I thought. Nasty with a power scourge; potentially 14 strength 8 attacks. That's really, good on a Sonic Dreadnought since its will strike first in follow on turns. With 8 wounds is should trigger at least once per game on average.
i've been thinking similar as well, except i was planning on one with 2 blastmaster + missile launcher and a fwq decimator, or 2 brutes with 2 blast and scourge, undecided yet
I wouldn't take the missile launcher although it makes there shooting better, losing a scourge makes the brute significantly less versatile it also makes it easy prey for disruption units who engage you in CQC just to deny your shooting, while a brute with a scourge actually has a chance to murder what ever tries this on it. No close combat unit will respect your missile launcher brute personal space :p
doc1234 wrote: Anyone got use from the Exalted Champion yet? What have you been running him with? Havn't seen him get mentioned much online here.
I think he's mainly good with a melee unit, like Possessed or Berzerkers, where rerolls to-wound can be clutch. Combines well with a Dark Apostle. I still need to give my guys a proper test (my first Chaos game in 8th didn't go too well because of my poor tactics and I've yet to play another), but I think a core of many of my CSM lists, or at least my World Eaters, will be 3 units of Berzerkers in Rhinos, with a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion.
Re-rolls are how you win games and this is especially true in 8th. Exalted champion pairs super well with a dark apostle. Together they represent around 150pts and instantly buff CC units, which chaos has a lot of, to insanely effective levels.
Recently I ran this combo in a rhino with berserkers and it just deleted the Incarne and a wraithguard unit.
Also useful with possessed, CC noise Marines, and really anything with lots of attacks.
Ghorgul wrote:Lascannons, while expensive, give you 4 shots. Missiles are only Heavy 2.
They both give you 4 shots since the Raptor is armed either with 2 twin Lascannons or 2 twin missiles.
Nothing in the unit entry implies that you get 2 sets of missiles. It just reads 'Hellstrike missiles', and stats say they are heavy 2.
I would love them to be Heavy 4, but FW index does not support this.
I have him written in for my Konor list this week with a possessed unit and an apostle in a LR.
Basically you can get your CC units with some buffs now hitting on 2s (prescience) rerolling misses (Apostle) or at least rerolling 1s with a Prince and wounding MEQs on 2s with VotLW rerolling 1s.
This should delete almost anything. If you are running Emps Children like I do you can make it nastier with a banner of excess so verse Imperium you get extra attacks on a 4. And the excessive violence stratagem for more attacks for each model you remove. Can even delete some blob squads with this.
Right now I want to run mine with a chain sword and either a chain axe or power axe which as far as I can tell is legal. Gives the champ a ton of attacks and a lot of damage in cc on the cheap.
Exalted champion looks awesome. I haven't used him myself, but the buff aura is actually better than what SM get, they have re-roll 1's to wound both shooting and fight phase.
Although there is one thing I don't get: SM liutenant can get jump pack but Exalted Champion is strickly a footslogger! This forces one to use transports, which is fine as the best melee unit we have, the berserkers, should have transport available anyway.
Skimming through the new book, I realized Chaos Marine troops (yes I know, why take them over cultists for troop tax...) can take two Special Weapons OR Heavy Weapons. Makes for specializing them alot easier. So, instead of being stuck with two plasma guns for range or one plasma, one AC, you can give them two AC or HB, so they can stick to back-objectives and provide fire support.
Speaking of which, what would be the best heavy weapons to give to Marine troops? I'm thinking HBs for long range support when fighting GEQ, and Plasma for MEQ or even TEQ.
Dr. Temujin wrote: Skimming through the new book, I realized Chaos Marine troops (yes I know, why take them over cultists for troop tax...) can take two Special Weapons OR Heavy Weapons. Makes for specializing them alot easier. So, instead of being stuck with two plasma guns for range or one plasma, one AC, you can give them two AC or HB, so they can stick to back-objectives and provide fire support.
Speaking of which, what would be the best heavy weapons to give to Marine troops? I'm thinking HBs for long range support when fighting GEQ, and Plasma for MEQ or even TEQ.
Why are you taking them in units of 10? Units of 5 fills troops slots faster, gives the same number of special/heavy weapon (more if you want to kit out the sarges), and doesn't have as many issues with morale. You can hav both in one transport as well.
RE taking small units to avoid morale. How much does this become a liability when it's kill points, and when it's tactical objectives? I've seen games where an MSU list has no viable win other than to table the enemy...
Also: I got a box of Rubricae and I want to add some Tzeentchian troops to my Word Bearers. I'm hesitant to build them as is - I'm planning to add Cult units as allied Legion detachments - but for any given Mortal infantry unit, I'm struggling to see one that's really suited to Icon of Flame. I guess it's just something they'll bring along with the Mark of allowing a sorcerer to enhance or create their invulnerable save? So I suppose the question is, what Icon-bearing unit benefits the most from it? Or maybe just give the schemer token representation in a few anti-infantry Havoc units, since the really potent gunners want access to EC, the solid brawlers want free re-rolls on charges or FNP+enhanced DttFE, and the super mobile stuff probably prefers to run around under Banners of Despair...
...I ultimately want to field a big Possessed unit for each god, and access to 4++ on a 2W unit is pretty decent. Though I can't help but think that 5++ & FNP & better DttFE is better, especially against 2D shooting, and will be giving Slaanesh priority there.
I'm strating to think it might be worth actually focusing a daemon prince on actually staying alive. Last few games i'v had he's just been whittled down rather quick.
Thinking this is where the IW trait actually comes into play!
** = ignore wounds on
Take the +1w 6** trait
Slannesh and 5** power
Flesh metal
So you have 9 wounds 2+ (5++ daemon) 6** - regaining a wound each turn
Then with the power is 2+(5++ daemon) 6** 5** - regaining a wound each turn
Then drop a cmd point on the IW strat its 2+(5++ daemon) 6** 5** 6** - regaining a wound each turn !!!
I'm really considering this over the exiler and dia strength so it actually hangs in there e.g. the lastability will trump the increased damage output over time.
Latro_ wrote: I'm strating to think it might be worth actually focusing a daemon prince on actually staying alive. Last few games i'v had he's just been whittled down rather quick.
Thinking this is where the IW trait actually comes into play!
** = ignore wounds on
Take the +1w 6** trait
Slannesh and 5** power
Flesh metal
So you have 9 wounds 2+ (5++ daemon) 6** - regaining a wound each turn
Then with the power is 2+(5++ daemon) 6** 5** - regaining a wound each turn
Then drop a cmd point on the IW strat its 2+(5++ daemon) 6** 5** 6** - regaining a wound each turn !!!
I'm really considering this over the exiler and dia strength so it actually hangs in there e.g. the lastability will trump the increased damage output over time.
I think that could be a good variant, but i think its a waste going both delightful agonies and unholy fortitude, you can get a lot more bang for your buck using only one. the exoskeleton would be nice if your willing to make it IW over another legion. I was putting an EC list together with unholy fortitude and dia strength on the DP, i think it should take either of the FNP traits on its list either way though, and that would make the IW stratagem useless on him. But my DP isnt the biggest threat on this list anyway..
I'm running a pretty nasty Night Lords army focusing on morale debuffs. Everything has a way to drop leadership, it's all fast, it's pretty effective. I want to add a detachment of chaos furies for the extra morale hit and being jump infantry, they synch up well. I'm not sure if I want to have Be'Lakor leading them. He's got a -1 leadership buff so it seems like a given, but damn is he expensive compared to princes, has fewer wounds, and he can't take daemon powers like a regular daemon prince, which means he competes with powers with my sorcerers. Would I be better off just taking a regular prince with wings? I want to stick with a prince of some kind for the rerolls with my Heldrakes and Warp talons.
Badablack wrote: I'm running a pretty nasty Night Lords army focusing on morale debuffs. Everything has a way to drop leadership, it's all fast, it's pretty effective. I want to add a detachment of chaos furies for the extra morale hit and being jump infantry, they synch up well. I'm not sure if I want to have Be'Lakor leading them. He's got a -1 leadership buff so it seems like a given, but damn is he expensive compared to princes, has fewer wounds, and he can't take daemon powers like a regular daemon prince, which means he competes with powers with my sorcerers. Would I be better off just taking a regular prince with wings? I want to stick with a prince of some kind for the rerolls with my Heldrakes and Warp talons.
Well, he's got a re-rollable 4++, which is better than having the Tzeentch AND Slaanesh powers cast on him. His weapon is an absolute beatstick, leave Storm Shield guys to others or Death Hex them or just brute force them with all six attacks and he'll be sorted. He'll be getting up close, so he'll probably be tempted to Smite with one of his powers. Really struggling to see the downside here, as long as he doesn't jump into the middle of a Grey Knights army he looks fine to me!
Latro_ wrote: One thing that stands out to me from the renegades list is the maleific lord
30pts decent enough stats 4++ and smite.
anyone thought about a spam army of them.
You haven't been reading the comp tournament chaos lists have you?
lol no, hit me up.
to be honest i was just gonna run 3 for some psy defense in a superheavy list but now the gamer in me is thinking screw the superheavies i'll just take these guys
Also: I got a box of Rubricae and I want to add some Tzeentchian troops to my Word Bearers.
My son and I have started gaming this edition. He likes chaos and we've considered Word Bearers but also want to have some Tzeentch influence. How are you running your Word Bearers? Are you choosing Tzeentch for their mark of chaos and Word Bearers for their legion? I just picked up the book and we've been pointing up some of our models to see what our starter army would look like.
Latro_ wrote: One thing that stands out to me from the renegades list is the maleific lord
30pts decent enough stats 4++ and smite.
anyone thought about a spam army of them.
You haven't been reading the comp tournament chaos lists have you?
lol no, hit me up.
to be honest i was just gonna run 3 for some psy defense in a superheavy list but now the gamer in me is thinking screw the superheavies i'll just take these guys
From what I've seen, a lot of the chaos comp lists that aren't horror spam have been filled with cheap R&H detachments with malefic lord smite spam and mutant tables. With the nerf to horrors I think we'll be seeing more of these guys.
Of course, with the less than optimal R&H artillery now, CP farming is all they're really used for (smite spam is just a bonus).
Sersi wrote: True but with 8 wounds it should trigger at least once per game on average.
You don't roll for every wound loss, you just roll once at the end of any phase they took damage. So far I have rolled 3 times and not gotten crazed but yet managed to explode twice
It's a sweet ability but you don't get nearly ad many rolls as your assuming, generally it's shot to death and you never roll.
Hey ya'll, I've been spending the last couple weeks researching what I would like to collect as my next army, and I thought I'd come asking for some advice
I had originally decided I liked AdMech, due to liking the Kastelan Robot and Dunecrawler models, and the idea of making a hi-tech robot army. It generally meant taking a bit of an imperial soup list though, and I already play against 2 space marine armies and one imperial guard... thought it might be a bit samey. (My current army is Orks, fyi).
So I considered converting a Dark Mechanicus army, and focusing on demon engines and hellforged units. I was already going to use a forgeworld siege automata as a Leviathan Dreadnought, which fortunately Chaos also has access too! But I was just wondering how "good" (if not competitive) an army made up of a mix of the following units could be? I would like at least one unit that could be compatible with a kastelan robot conversion (I guess helforged contemptors would be the ideal? Or helbrutes, but I already like their model haha)
I'd appreciate any tips or advice. If this turns out to be an unadvisable idea, then I will probably just stick to an AdMech list. I suspect it would be much more straighforward lol.
kastelan robots are way smaller then any of the models on that list except the brutes, contemptors would be close but are still substantially bulkier.
As for whats worth taking, all of it is good. Just take what you think looks and plays the coolest. Thats the thing i like most about this edition, everything is viable. Even posessed!!!
On another note.
I hear a lot of crap talk about normal CSM but so far mine have been doing crazy work. I have been taking min squads of 5 with a plasma gun and a champion with a power weapon and plasma pistol which comes to only 90pts. In my last game two units managed to kill a sydonian dragoon, and finish off a datasmith, kataphron destroyer, a vanguard unit and get me line breaker. It was a 1000 point game but they don't draw much (any) fire if you run them up through terrain since nobody wants to waste shots on 2+ save marines and yet they are a major pain and have obsec. I love cultists but by comparison they don't contribute worth a damn beyond early game screening. I don't need cheap back field units since I have guns back there already, so their scoring potential is moot.
Something I am noticing about 8th is that you want everything in your list to have offensive punch. Things get wrecked fast and relying on a few heavy hitters with loads of cultists is a win big lose big strategy. Sure oblits and terminators wreck face when they drop but if your opponent survives and kills them in return you lost if you are relying on cultists to be the glue. Or even when doing well in a game of attrition, it's more point efficient to have a cheap 5 man unit clean up survivors later otherwise you leave PITA units alive or your main hitters become spread way to thin.
Bare in mind I am not talking about world eaters or emperors children here, i am talking about any army using are basic troops. I am sure we can get by without them but I have seen very little respect for the average traitor marine which I think is solid and a lot of fun to use now.
BTW can anyone tell me where to find going to ground in the rules, I know I read about it on my full read through but I can't find it now and I am away from my book currently. Is it in the advanced or terrain section?
Red Corsair wrote: kastelan robots are way smaller then any of the models on that list except the brutes, contemptors would be close but are still substantially bulkier.
As for whats worth taking, all of it is good. Just take what you think looks and plays the coolest. Thats the thing i like most about this edition, everything is viable. Even posessed!!!
Oh really? I didn't expect them to be substantially smaller, as Helbrutes, Decimator and Contemptor are all on the same 60mm base size as the castelan.
Though after going through the codex, I did also consider converting a kastelan into a HQ choice, such as a demon prince.
May have to rethink things if the sizes are that hugely different. Thanks
Kastelans are about the same size as helbrutes and slightly shorter than contemptors, but the same general size. You can definitely run them as either with the proper conversions. I can put up some comparison shots if you want, using a similar dark mechanicus army I had with converted contemptors and dark eldar pain engines.
Badablack wrote: Kastelans are about the same size as helbrutes and slightly shorter than contemptors, but the same general size. You can definitely run them as either with the proper conversions. I can put up some comparison shots if you want, using a similar dark mechanicus army I had with converted contemptors and dark eldar pain engines.
Latro_ wrote: One thing that stands out to me from the renegades list is the maleific lord
30pts decent enough stats 4++ and smite.
anyone thought about a spam army of them.
You haven't been reading the comp tournament chaos lists have you?
lol no, hit me up.
to be honest i was just gonna run 3 for some psy defense in a superheavy list but now the gamer in me is thinking screw the superheavies i'll just take these guys
From what I've seen, a lot of the chaos comp lists that aren't horror spam have been filled with cheap R&H detachments with malefic lord smite spam and mutant tables. With the nerf to horrors I think we'll be seeing more of these guys.
Of course, with the less than optimal R&H artillery now, CP farming is all they're really used for (smite spam is just a bonus).
It's worth mentioning that the character abuse armies like malefic lord spam and the culexis spam that recently won a tourney are going to be addressed soon according to the FLG guys. I think the malefic lord lists could survive changes to how character targeting works but I also expect them to get a points bump so...
Also: I got a box of Rubricae and I want to add some Tzeentchian troops to my Word Bearers.
My son and I have started gaming this edition. He likes chaos and we've considered Word Bearers but also want to have some Tzeentch influence. How are you running your Word Bearers? Are you choosing Tzeentch for their mark of chaos and Word Bearers for their legion? I just picked up the book and we've been pointing up some of our models to see what our starter army would look like.
Edit: Grammar check!
Well, I went Word Bearers for their aesthetics and abundance of organic gribbly Daemonic textures to paint. As a polytheist Legion, I want to make sure I've got a fairly even mix of Marked units. Possessed are definitely a good choice for the Tzeentch delegation - easily converted with Tzaangor parts, look awesome, and can benefit from a very nice +1 invulnerable saves spell and the Changeling's excellent aura ability. Nothing wrong with that. I had plans for a Heavy Bolter Havocs unit, but that was in the previous edition where the Icon of Flame specifically buffed those weapons. At the very least, I'll be doing the various Daemonic infantry for him, as they'll have access to the above spell, buff, and and extra strength buff from a Herald. Probably a squad of Flamer Havocs/Chosen, as they'll just be given the Rubric weapons.
In general, I've found the most useful thing is knowing where to apply Warptime. Taking twenty marines with a couple of Flamers and Advancing twice with them completely took the initiative in a smallish game where an opponent planned a Deep Strike. I've recently built a Dreadclaw Drop Pod out of a Tyranid Spore, and it's performing well as a Chosen delivery system that can be Warptimed into the middle of a mass of units and raise hell whilst it's former passengers double-tap with Plasma.
Whilst our Legion Trait is not widely considered powerful, our Warlord Trait seems extremely handy in a game of auras. A Lord can oversee a large firebase, and a Dark Apostle can shout encouragement into a fairly wide range of melees. I try to start off with a firebase of two Havocs Squads with a couple of Cultist Squads for bubble wrap, and with the rest of the army make it a Battalion and a Spearhead.
I'm not convinced that our Summoning schtick is especially useful in Matched Play, especially now that finishing deploying first doesn't give you a high chance of taking first turn. However, I am interested in our capability to reliably bring in Be'lakor, a Keeper of Secrets, or a horde of Plaguebearers. Possessed used to be our Legion Troops unit, and whilst they now remain Elites they are certainly a decent unit.
While fiddling arounfnwith my Iron warriors i came up with this as a joke to represemt a Iron warriors breaching unit but when I showed it to my buddy he said that it seem lile.itnwpuld.actually be fun to face so I present to for you veiwing pleasure the single drop deplpyment shenanigans of a Iron warriors breacher unit
Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant [9 PL, 178pts]: Flamer, Infernal axe, Soulburner pistol, Voidcutter
. Dark Abeyant: Warpfire lance
+ Elites +
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 253pts]: Havoc launcher
. Left Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
. Right Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 253pts]: Havoc launcher
. Left Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
. Right Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
++ Total: [98 PL, 2000pts] ++
By no means is it optomised, but dropping a single model as your entire deployment has got to be one of the funniest things I've seen at this point in 8th. I wpuld.ne curious to see a more optimized version on it if someone has the mond or time for it but with the whole point being that the entire force is inside the mastodon I dont see much tonbe done with the list.
Ir0njack wrote: While fiddling arounfnwith my Iron warriors i came up with this as a joke to represemt a Iron warriors breaching unit but when I showed it to my buddy he said that it seem lile.itnwpuld.actually be fun to face so I present to for you veiwing pleasure the single drop deplpyment shenanigans of a Iron warriors breacher unit
Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant [9 PL, 178pts]: Flamer, Infernal axe, Soulburner pistol, Voidcutter
. Dark Abeyant: Warpfire lance
+ Elites +
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 253pts]: Havoc launcher
. Left Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
. Right Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 253pts]: Havoc launcher
. Left Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
. Right Arm: Hellforged deathclaw, Soulburner
++ Total: [98 PL, 2000pts] ++
By no means is it optomised, but dropping a single model as your entire deployment has got to be one of the funniest things I've seen at this point in 8th. I wpuld.ne curious to see a more optimized version on it if someone has the mond or time for it but with the whole point being that the entire force is inside the mastodon I dont see much tonbe done with the list.
Haha, nice. I may take some notes for my Daemon Engine list I'm trying to think up
Don't you need 2 more Elite units in the Vanguard Detachment to make it legal? As it stands it looks like you only have 1 of the required 3 compulsory Elites.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Don't you need 2 more Elite units in the Vanguard Detachment to make it legal? As it stands it looks like you only have 1 of the required 3 compulsory Elites.
He does have 3 elites in total though, I think it's all meant to be in one single vanguard detachment, but battlescribe has introduced some errors. I don't use it myself, I don't like the way it formats stuff, but I suspect that's what's happened.
Played in a competitive 32 man RTT earlier today. Was super well run and the people playing in it were great. Wound up placing 5th because I left a space between 2 models (gah!) and the guy I lost to won the whole thing.
Magnus was literally everywhere. To put it in perspective, 4 out of the top 6 players had Magnus. Not the top 6 Chaos players. The top 6 players at the entire event.
Super amazing units that I saw on multiple tables/played myself:
Magnus (duh)
Malefic lords (duh)
Changeling
Noise marines
Oblits
Warp Talons
Maulerfiends
Bloat Drones
Berserkers
Fire Raptor
I want to try out the noise marines. Still not sold on the Warp Talons but better players than I like them a lot. Also not sold on the fire raptor.
luke1705 wrote: Played in a competitive 32 man RTT earlier today. Was super well run and the people playing in it were great. Wound up placing 5th because I left a space between 2 models (gah!) and the guy I lost to won the whole thing.
Magnus was literally everywhere. To put it in perspective, 4 out of the top 6 players had Magnus. Not the top 6 Chaos players. The top 6 players at the entire event.
Super amazing units that I saw on multiple tables/played myself:
Magnus (duh)
Malefic lords (duh)
Changeling
Noise marines
Oblits
Warp Talons
Maulerfiends
Bloat Drones
Berserkers
Fire Raptor
I want to try out the noise marines. Still not sold on the Warp Talons but better players than I like them a lot. Also not sold on the fire raptor.
So are Noise marines and Berserkers are looking to be chaos best troops ? (or where they alpha legion zerkers?) You didn't mention brimstones did the 1pt increase really hit that hard ?
Chaos Leviathan dread does not get "chapter tactics" because it's not a hellbrute.
Space marine Leviathan dread DOES get "chapter tactics" because it's a dreadnaught.
Chaos Leviathan dread does not get "chapter tactics" because it's not a hellbrute.
Space marine Leviathan dread DOES get "chapter tactics" because it's a dreadnaught.
luke1705 wrote: Played in a competitive 32 man RTT earlier today. Was super well run and the people playing in it were great. Wound up placing 5th because I left a space between 2 models (gah!) and the guy I lost to won the whole thing.
Magnus was literally everywhere. To put it in perspective, 4 out of the top 6 players had Magnus. Not the top 6 Chaos players. The top 6 players at the entire event.
Super amazing units that I saw on multiple tables/played myself:
Magnus (duh)
Malefic lords (duh)
Changeling
Noise marines
Oblits
Warp Talons
Maulerfiends
Bloat Drones
Berserkers
Fire Raptor
I want to try out the noise marines. Still not sold on the Warp Talons but better players than I like them a lot. Also not sold on the fire raptor.
Yup. Magnus moving 32" round one is a thing.
My T'au Army has faced it twice and dropped him turn one both times, but there is no question that he scares the willies outta me.
Turn one Magnus charge is like the same from Swarmlord - frightening rushdown the first time, but when you realise that he's killing one unit max and then he's a piñata for your shooting, not so bad. In both cases, probably better to use them to get a different unit in a first turn charge and seek cover so he can make his own charge with proper support.
Far better to have Magnus throw in a deepstriking Warp Talons unit and have a bunch of individual Fiends make supporting charges. If ONE of them makes it, then the WTs can't be disengaged from and are free to pile in to the remaining victim and then raise hell in deep insertion tactics next turn.
RE Fire Raptors - I have one as a conversion project and whilst I love the look for a Reaper Battery, it seems terrible compared to the Heavy Bolters. I mean, Reaper Autocannon is a -1D nerf compared to twin AC (which makes our Helbrutes an absolute joke compared with Mortis), and Reaper Battery is a twin RAC with one of them having -50% shots. There's few targets against which it even has parity with the QHB, and nothing it's better at shooting, and it's MORE EXPENSIVE. It's not even got the range advantage it has over Assault Cannons. I can't even.
I did neglect to mention brims. They're still great but not exclusively used because obsec on the cultists is so good. Most people aren't paying the second daemons HQ tax to get obsec brims since you just grab an apostle + sorceror and your CSM cultists are obsec.
I also didn't mention cultists, but they are amazing for the points. Especially as alpha legion (which is what literally everyone is now, competitively).
I did see one guy running 100 or so poxwalkers, and I expect that when the DG codex comes out, they'll be even more viable. Right now, if they were 5 PPM I'd probably run them instead of the cultists, but the cultist stratagems are too good.
Magnus turn 1 charging is usually a noob trap. Much more often, he lets another unit (maulerfiend, for example) get extra movement, sometimes to charge. The issue is that leaving the changeling aura lets him die. This happened to the guy running 100 poxwalkers twice (to be fair, both times Magnus didn't have the +1 invuln up for at least half his wounds lost).
Going into deny range with Magnus is also riskier than you might think. Especially in a mirror matchup, which will happen a lot until more codices get released.
Hi everyone,
So I'm still trying to see if it would be possible to make a Dark Mechanicus / Daemon Engine army with chaos, and I'm struggling a little with all the options I have available. So I thought I'd ask a couple questions here and see where it goes!
1) Maulerfiend vs Blood Slaughterer. They both seem fairly comparable (which is good, as I'd hate forgeworld to be OP all the time) but is there a current reasoning behind choosing one of them over the other? Slaughterer seems to be faster because of scuttling gait, and more accurate with WS3, but maulerfiend is tougher? The other difference leads me on to question 2 -
2) Gods. The blood slaughterer is khorne-only, while the maulerfiend can be any god. But I'm struggling to find the benefits for each god choice. There doesn't seem to be any universal bonuses for each one (like there is for legion traits), so is the only thing it affects that certain psychic powers can only effect certain gods? But those powers seemed to be infantry only anyway, so the maulerfiend wouldn't benefit... The only other thing I could find was the Changeling (which is in a different codex entirely, but I assume it still works the same) that only gives it's aura to other Tzeentch worshippers...
So yeh, mauler vs slaughterer, and if anyone could help me with the benefits of the gods I'd appreciate it. Chaos has sooooo many options!
You pretty much hit it on the head. The Khorne one is more killy but not able to benefit from the changeling. None of the strategems for daemon engines are god specific. So basically it boils down to if you want to put it in a specific detachment (emperors children or World Eaters). No real benefits to doing so except that if you already have an alpha legion detachment and you want this dude to be World Eaters or something else, you'd have to put him in a different detachment to retain your legion traits for the alpha legion detachment.
Personally, I'm not a fan of him being unable to fall back, and in this case I think the added durability of Tzeentch is better than the added offensive output, which really only is because of his extra attacks since the maulerfiend wounds T6 and T7 more easily, and you lose a lot of the difference between WS 3+ and WS 4+ if you use the stratagem to give re-rolls to the daemon engine. You could use prescience, but that is usually better served on a shooting unit like oblits or noise marines.
Also worth pointing out that the slaughterer is 28 points more. It's not a ton, but even if they cost the same I'd probably go with the Maulerfiend. The extra points just seal the deal IMO.
That being said, they're both very good and if you like one over the other, you'll find they both do really well. It's like cultists vs poxwalkers. Poxwalkers are fearless, can regenerate models, can be T4 and always have a 5+ FNP, but are a little more expensive. Cultists are cheaper and can regenerate models for CP, plus can get legion tactics and are more mobile if you spend more CP, but die to a stiff breeze. Can't go wrong with either.
Niiru wrote: Hi everyone,
So I'm still trying to see if it would be possible to make a Dark Mechanicus / Daemon Engine army with chaos, and I'm struggling a little with all the options I have available. So I thought I'd ask a couple questions here and see where it goes!
1) Maulerfiend vs Blood Slaughterer. They both seem fairly comparable (which is good, as I'd hate forgeworld to be OP all the time) but is there a current reasoning behind choosing one of them over the other? Slaughterer seems to be faster because of scuttling gait, and more accurate with WS3, but maulerfiend is tougher? The other difference leads me on to question 2 -
2) Gods. The blood slaughterer is khorne-only, while the maulerfiend can be any god. But I'm struggling to find the benefits for each god choice. There doesn't seem to be any universal bonuses for each one (like there is for legion traits), so is the only thing it affects that certain psychic powers can only effect certain gods? But those powers seemed to be infantry only anyway, so the maulerfiend wouldn't benefit... The only other thing I could find was the Changeling (which is in a different codex entirely, but I assume it still works the same) that only gives it's aura to other Tzeentch worshippers...
So yeh, mauler vs slaughterer, and if anyone could help me with the benefits of the gods I'd appreciate it. Chaos has sooooo many options!
I was looking at the Kastellans again for you, I just played a game with my brother who was running them against my cons of horus contemptor and they are similar height but quite a bit less bulky IMO but they tower over the helbrute who is thicker but alot shorter. I would say they fit best as helbrutes, and look way cooler if done right IMO since I never liked the fleshy look of the new helbrute personally. Decimators are HUGE by the way. I own 4 and I remember when I first ordered one and when it arrived it was twice the size I imagined it lol I would totally recommend that model to anyone it is so awesome and fun to pose. I think you could make your own if you used sentinal legs and got some larger paldrons and bulked out a kastellan but it would probably get expensive.
Niiru wrote: Hi everyone,
So I'm still trying to see if it would be possible to make a Dark Mechanicus / Daemon Engine army with chaos, and I'm struggling a little with all the options I have available. So I thought I'd ask a couple questions here and see where it goes!
1) Maulerfiend vs Blood Slaughterer. They both seem fairly comparable (which is good, as I'd hate forgeworld to be OP all the time) but is there a current reasoning behind choosing one of them over the other? Slaughterer seems to be faster because of scuttling gait, and more accurate with WS3, but maulerfiend is tougher? The other difference leads me on to question 2 -
2) Gods. The blood slaughterer is khorne-only, while the maulerfiend can be any god. But I'm struggling to find the benefits for each god choice. There doesn't seem to be any universal bonuses for each one (like there is for legion traits), so is the only thing it affects that certain psychic powers can only effect certain gods? But those powers seemed to be infantry only anyway, so the maulerfiend wouldn't benefit... The only other thing I could find was the Changeling (which is in a different codex entirely, but I assume it still works the same) that only gives it's aura to other Tzeentch worshippers...
So yeh, mauler vs slaughterer, and if anyone could help me with the benefits of the gods I'd appreciate it. Chaos has sooooo many options!
I was looking at the Kastellans again for you, I just played a game with my brother who was running them against my cons of horus contemptor and they are similar height but quite a bit less bulky IMO but they tower over the helbrute who is thicker but alot shorter. I would say they fit best as helbrutes, and look way cooler if done right IMO since I never liked the fleshy look of the new helbrute personally. Decimators are HUGE by the way. I own 4 and I remember when I first ordered one and when it arrived it was twice the size I imagined it lol I would totally recommend that model to anyone it is so awesome and fun to pose. I think you could make your own if you used sentinal legs and got some larger paldrons and bulked out a kastellan but it would probably get expensive.
Hi, thanks I appreciate that My current thinking is along the lines of -
Helbrutes or Contemptors (using kastellan) - Helbrutes are cheaper, but also flimsier. Not sure if I would fit them with Fist+Scourge, or give them some weapon options and turn them into a weapon platform. I'd probably give the contemptor two CC weapons and two soul burners. But thats 160pts for helbrute vs 250 for contemptor.
Deredeo or Leviathan (using Thanatar) - Butcher Array+Havoc Launcher vs Butcher Array+Grav Flux. Leviathan is a bit tougher, and a lot killier especially against hordes, but also 100 points more expensive.
Maulerfiend or Blood Slaughterer (using blood slaughterer model either way, I like it haha) - Like I said before. Slaughterer is a little pricier but faster and a bit killier, but also easier to kill. Close thing. If I do make this list I may just get the slaughterer model and field it as one or the other and test which works best.
I would then have a Hellwright with Dark Abeyance, and a Daemon Prince maybe that I would convert with robotic wings.
Hellwright + Dark Abeyance
Daemon Prince w/ wings
2x Helbrute
Blood Slaughterer
Helforged Deredeo
= about 1100 points depending on loadouts.
Leaves a lot of room for other things. Not sure what I would run a squad of Scyllax as, it would have to be something with a lot of melee attacks haha.
luke1705 wrote: Has anyone been using noise marines by the way? I'm wondering if the blasmaster is worth the points to upgrade.
To me the Blast Master is a better variant of the Missile Launcher, sure, compared to krak missiles it only does D3 damage, but also D3 shots, which makes it top out at 9 damage total with the same strength and AP. For Horde clearing the Varied frequency is just better than a frag missile.
Eight Sonic Blasters and two Blast Masters are a great way to clear out thrash and a way to pop vehicles for not too many points, especially with double shooting from the stratagem.
luke1705 wrote: Has anyone been using noise marines by the way? I'm wondering if the blasmaster is worth the points to upgrade.
To me the Blast Master is a better variant of the Missile Launcher, sure, compared to krak missiles it only does D3 damage, but also D3 shots, which makes it top out at 9 damage total with the same strength and AP. For Horde clearing the Varied frequency is just better than a frag missile.
Eight Sonic Blasters and two Blast Masters are a great way to clear out thrash and a way to pop vehicles for not too many points, especially with double shooting from the stratagem.
I found the picture of the kastelans next to contemptors with a dark eldar pain engine thrown in as well.
From left to right: kastelan, pain engine with kastelan legs (since the model doesn't come with legs), kastelan, contemptor.
I have to mention that the contemptors was a plasti version, I removed the front chest plate to slim it down a bit and replaced the limbs with kastelan bits so it matched better.
Hi - I made this list on the back of two strategies which have been seperately discussed recently: Turn 1 Bezerker charges and an Obliterator firebase.
Spoiler:
[Alpha Legion] Battalion 1484
[Mark of Tzeentch unless otherwise stated]
Winged Daemon Prince 170
Death Hex
Pair of Malefic Talons 10
So, as already discussed, alpha strike the obliterators with Changeling within range and optional DP nearby for rerolls, attempt to take out something tasty turn one with 24 shot.
Use forward opertives to place one squad of bezerkers 12+" away on turn 1. This should distract your opponent immeasurably if you dont get turn 1. The other squad of 20 can be warptimed by the other DP: move - advance - move advance - charge with rerolls. Another turn 1 combat most likely. I could always for-go the second detachment and just infiltrate both squads, but i think this way has more flexibility.
Finally some cultists to flesh out troops and 2 squads of anti horde marines to sit back lines and benefit from the -1 to hit.
Badablack wrote: I found the picture of the kastelans next to contemptors with a dark eldar pain engine thrown in as well.
Spoiler:
From left to right: kastelan, pain engine with kastelan legs (since the model doesn't come with legs), kastelan, contemptor.
I have to mention that the contemptors was a plasti version, I removed the front chest plate to slim it down a bit and replaced the limbs with kastelan bits so it matched better.
Thanks for the comparison, I would think that for my gaming group thats more than close enough in size for it to work as a counts-as. To be honest as long as the base size is the same I don't think most people would have much of an issue with things like what I'm doing.
The decimator is a bit trickier, as the model is pretty bulky and tall, even though it's still on the same size base (60mm). To me it looks like it should really be on a bigger base!
Niiru wrote: Hi everyone,
So I'm still trying to see if it would be possible to make a Dark Mechanicus / Daemon Engine army with chaos, and I'm struggling a little with all the options I have available. So I thought I'd ask a couple questions here and see where it goes!
1) Maulerfiend vs Blood Slaughterer. They both seem fairly comparable (which is good, as I'd hate forgeworld to be OP all the time) but is there a current reasoning behind choosing one of them over the other? Slaughterer seems to be faster because of scuttling gait, and more accurate with WS3, but maulerfiend is tougher? The other difference leads me on to question 2 -
2) Gods. The blood slaughterer is khorne-only, while the maulerfiend can be any god. But I'm struggling to find the benefits for each god choice. There doesn't seem to be any universal bonuses for each one (like there is for legion traits), so is the only thing it affects that certain psychic powers can only effect certain gods? But those powers seemed to be infantry only anyway, so the maulerfiend wouldn't benefit... The only other thing I could find was the Changeling (which is in a different codex entirely, but I assume it still works the same) that only gives it's aura to other Tzeentch worshippers...
So yeh, mauler vs slaughterer, and if anyone could help me with the benefits of the gods I'd appreciate it. Chaos has sooooo many options!
In addition to my questions here, I'll add that I've narrowed down my potential Legion to either Night Lords or Alpha Legion.
-1 to hit rolls for the enemy seems just generally good, especially for a daemon engine list where there will be a turn or two of footslogging to get into the enemy. Also keeps my gunline a bit safer.
-1 to leadership seems like a minimal thing offhand, but a few of the bots can get butcher cannons which also drop leadership, and I'm sure there are other things too which could lead to some fun morale issues for the enemy.
Is there any advice for me on these? As well as which gods bonus's would compliment them the best?
Levski wrote: Hi - I made this list on the back of two strategies which have been seperately discussed recently: Turn 1 Bezerker charges and an Obliterator firebase.
Spoiler:
[Alpha Legion] Battalion 1484
[Mark of Tzeentch unless otherwise stated]
Winged Daemon Prince 170
Death Hex
Pair of Malefic Talons 10
So, as already discussed, alpha strike the obliterators with Changeling within range and optional DP nearby for rerolls, attempt to take out something tasty turn one with 24 shot.
Use forward opertives to place one squad of bezerkers 12+" away on turn 1. This should distract your opponent immeasurably if you dont get turn 1. The other squad of 20 can be warptimed by the other DP: move - advance - move advance - charge with rerolls. Another turn 1 combat most likely. I could always for-go the second detachment and just infiltrate both squads, but i think this way has more flexibility.
Finally some cultists to flesh out troops and 2 squads of anti horde marines to sit back lines and benefit from the -1 to hit.
Any critiques on this list/strategy?
Make the cultists 3 different squads of 10 to still give you Command Points, and turn the regular chaos Marine squads into Havocs, giving you more potential ML.
What justification is there for increasing the cost by over 110pts?
It is a bit of a beast.
4 lascannon shots and 6 hb shots that shoot at a 3+ even if you move. 2+ armor save with T8 and 16 wounds is tough to burn through. My LR has absorbed entire armies of fire for multiple turns and survived usually delivering a cargo of deadly bezerkers.
When I don't run it I tend to miss it just for the fact it absorbs so much fire since people are rightfully scared of it.
Though some smart folks just get into close combat and negate it.
Levski wrote: Hi - I made this list on the back of two strategies which have been seperately discussed recently: Turn 1 Bezerker charges and an Obliterator firebase.
Spoiler:
[Alpha Legion] Battalion 1484
[Mark of Tzeentch unless otherwise stated]
Winged Daemon Prince 170
Death Hex
Pair of Malefic Talons 10
So, as already discussed, alpha strike the obliterators with Changeling within range and optional DP nearby for rerolls, attempt to take out something tasty turn one with 24 shot.
Use forward opertives to place one squad of bezerkers 12+" away on turn 1. This should distract your opponent immeasurably if you dont get turn 1. The other squad of 20 can be warptimed by the other DP: move - advance - move advance - charge with rerolls. Another turn 1 combat most likely. I could always for-go the second detachment and just infiltrate both squads, but i think this way has more flexibility.
Finally some cultists to flesh out troops and 2 squads of anti horde marines to sit back lines and benefit from the -1 to hit.
Any critiques on this list/strategy?
Banking too much on getting first turn is a bad strategy (40 berserkers is an "I win if I get first turn" strategy).
Would recommend making the zerker squads 10 man so as to be less susceptible to morale. I know it's juicy to infiltrate a bunch of 20 man squads but trust me - they kill what they hit and then they die. Usually that's not a trade in your favor.
If you want to make your list more competitive, it's important to make sure that your berserkers have somewhere to hide if you don't get turn 1. Banking on BLOS terrain is nice and all but not always possible/beneficial depending on deployment and where the terrain is placed.
My best two options for the berserker fall back plan are:
1) Rhinos
2) Storm Eagle
Would make one squad of obits (maybe two) slaanesh. Less durable but one squad can fire twice. It's tempting to make only 1 squad slaanesh since only 1 can fire twice, but then when they kill them, no one can fire twice.
Finally, you can infiltrate more than 1 squad of zerkers. The forward operatives stratagem isn't used in any phase, so you can deploy multiple units with it (albeit at the cost of 1 CP per unit). If you have less units (and therefore get the +1 to your first turn roll), it's probably worth infiltrating at least a unit or two. Especially because you place them after the seize, so you can mitigate getting seized on (or take advantage of seizing on your opponent!)
Tangential point on the AL infiltration lists - don't forget that Transports are not squad specific any more, so you can take a bunch of ten man zerks & Havocs and rhinos and then decide on deployment who - if anyone - is going to start the game in a tank.
There's probably some fringe cases where it's best to put a Cultist squad in a rhino; drive them up to an objective to ObSec when the zerks have eaten enough of the Scouts who got there first.
I suspect Tzeentch possessed are a safer bet than zerks for 12.1" deployment - with a conga line back to changeling, their 2W & 5++ will take a lot of shooting to shift, and with defacto power axes they'll not be much less of a scarecrow.
lindsay40k wrote: Tangential point on the AL infiltration lists - don't forget that Transports are not squad specific any more, so you can take a bunch of ten man zerks & Havocs and rhinos and then decide on deployment who - if anyone - is going to start the game in a tank.
Yes and no. You can wait until you set the units up in deployment but you can't infiltrate a zerker squad, find out you're going second and then put the zerkers in the tank.
Not saying that's what you meant, but I could see some people thinking that so I wanted to point it out. Oh how OP that would be if you could though!
I'd personally never run the noise marines without the blastmaster. It gives them a 46inch reach allowing them to threaten anything on the board not protected by line of sight blocking terrain. I would also argue that it is the best infantry sized heavy/special weapon in the game not only is it relatively cheap at 20pts which makes it cheaper than both the lascannon and missile launcher. It is also the most versatile heavy weapon in the game due to it being effective against every target in the game. At worst it is a d3 damage missile launcher if you only roll 1 shot.
As to how to run them either in min sized units with 4 sonic blasters and 1 blastmaster, you can try 10 man squads due to the Slaanesh stratagem but personally I believe there should be better things in the army to use that on.
Good catch, Luke, my intended meaning was that you can make your decision on who (and, indeed, if) you infiltrate when you see what the battlefield's like, how your opponent deploys their first few units, if they've got infiltrators of their own to worry about, etc
luke1705 wrote: Has anyone been using noise marines by the way? I'm wondering if the blasmaster is worth the points to upgrade.
To me the Blast Master is a better variant of the Missile Launcher, sure, compared to krak missiles it only does D3 damage, but also D3 shots, which makes it top out at 9 damage total with the same strength and AP. For Horde clearing the Varied frequency is just better than a frag missile.
Eight Sonic Blasters and two Blast Masters are a great way to clear out thrash and a way to pop vehicles for not too many points, especially with double shooting from the stratagem.
Noise marines definitely love a bit of thrash
Far too easy going. It's all Merzbow and Whitehouse.
luke1705 wrote: Played in a competitive 32 man RTT earlier today. Was super well run and the people playing in it were great. Wound up placing 5th because I left a space between 2 models (gah!) and the guy I lost to won the whole thing.
Magnus was literally everywhere. To put it in perspective, 4 out of the top 6 players had Magnus. Not the top 6 Chaos players. The top 6 players at the entire event.
Super amazing units that I saw on multiple tables/played myself:
Magnus (duh)
Malefic lords (duh)
Changeling
Noise marines
Oblits
Warp Talons
Maulerfiends
Bloat Drones
Berserkers
Fire Raptor
I want to try out the noise marines. Still not sold on the Warp Talons but better players than I like them a lot. Also not sold on the fire raptor.
This was the BfS Nova-Prep event I take it? I missed going (thanks elevator...), but I heard it was the Magnus show top-to-bottom. I'm disappointed I didn't get to go as I had expected that and a horde meta, and had built accordingly. :-p
And yeah... Chaos is in pretty excellent competitive shape, not the least reason being that Chaos Strategems are outright incredible.
Been rocking out with Noise Marines, and in every game my opponent has gone "They do HOW much damage" Blast Masters were good before and even better now with the points drop.
That getting to fire back is amazing, however I find that without the Alpha Legion trait they just drop too fast to the amount of fire power out there. I have been finding brims + changeling for buffer and bodies combined with alpha noise marines is the way to go.
Also Oblits are INSANE now. Totally taking two units of three in my NOVA list.
-2 to hit with alpha legion and changeling? Yeah that works for me. Really helps shut down those quilliman/re-roll all lists. Heavy weapon moved? Now you are -3 and only rerolling 1s and 2s. while hitting on 6s, have fun!
Leth wrote: Been rocking out with Noise Marines, and in every game my opponent has gone "They do HOW much damage" Blast Masters were good before and even better now with the points drop.
That getting to fire back is amazing, however I find that without the Alpha Legion trait they just drop too fast to the amount of fire power out there. I have been finding brims + changeling for buffer and bodies combined with alpha noise marines is the way to go.
Also Oblits are INSANE now. Totally taking two units of three in my NOVA list.
-2 to hit with alpha legion and changeling? Yeah that works for me. Really helps shut down those quilliman/re-roll all lists. Heavy weapon moved? Now you are -3 and only rerolling 1s and 2s. while hitting on 6s, have fun!
Not only that, but most of the Mortar Spam people are trying to jam in can barely even HIT Obliterators, and most orks can simply never move and shoot them. I'm rocking 3 Squads of them this weekend and cannot wait to see how well they fare.
What are people's thoughts on the Hellwright? With or without the Dark Abeyance?
In the 1D4chan tactica (maybe not the most reliable source of unit overviews, but it's the only one out there that I know of), the Hellsmith is generally described as being a Warpsmith+1, with a couple stat boosts and a better weapon, and the option of having the Dark Abeyance.
...But it says that it's a worthwhile upgrade because "He is an extra twelve points compared to the Warpsmith".
Except that when I work it out, the basic Hellwright is actually 50 points more than a Warpsmith (83 to 133), and the Dark Abeyance version boosts that up to 178 points.
For that you get +1S, +1T, +1W, a soulburner and a better Axe, and the Aura that gives only Hellforged vehicles +1 Attack. (With the abeyance you get another wound, and 2" of movement, and an extra Heavy weapon that I couldn't judge if it's good or bad).
Thoughts? I mean for 10 more points you could get a psychic Daemon Prince. Pretty sure you can get a Chaos Lord + Sorceror for that kind of points. I do want the Hellwright to be worth it's points though, as it would be a fluffy fit for my army.
Leth wrote: Been rocking out with Noise Marines, and in every game my opponent has gone "They do HOW much damage" Blast Masters were good before and even better now with the points drop.
That getting to fire back is amazing, however I find that without the Alpha Legion trait they just drop too fast to the amount of fire power out there. I have been finding brims + changeling for buffer and bodies combined with alpha noise marines is the way to go.
Also Oblits are INSANE now. Totally taking two units of three in my NOVA list.
-2 to hit with alpha legion and changeling? Yeah that works for me. Really helps shut down those quilliman/re-roll all lists. Heavy weapon moved? Now you are -3 and only rerolling 1s and 2s. while hitting on 6s, have fun!
Not only that, but most of the Mortar Spam people are trying to jam in can barely even HIT Obliterators, and most orks can simply never move and shoot them. I'm rocking 3 Squads of them this weekend and cannot wait to see how well they fare.
Let me know how your Oblits fared... I have several old Oblits in bits/disrepair and I'm thinking about adding them to my daemon list w/o Aetaos.
Niiru wrote: What are people's thoughts on the Hellwright? With or without the Dark Abeyance?
In the 1D4chan tactica (maybe not the most reliable source of unit overviews, but it's the only one out there that I know of), the Hellsmith is generally described as being a Warpsmith+1, with a couple stat boosts and a better weapon, and the option of having the Dark Abeyance.
...But it says that it's a worthwhile upgrade because "He is an extra twelve points compared to the Warpsmith".
Except that when I work it out, the basic Hellwright is actually 50 points more than a Warpsmith (83 to 133), and the Dark Abeyance version boosts that up to 178 points.
For that you get +1S, +1T, +1W, a soulburner and a better Axe, and the Aura that gives only Hellforged vehicles +1 Attack. (With the abeyance you get another wound, and 2" of movement, and an extra Heavy weapon that I couldn't judge if it's good or bad).
Thoughts? I mean for 10 more points you could get a psychic Daemon Prince. Pretty sure you can get a Chaos Lord + Sorceror for that kind of points. I do want the Hellwright to be worth it's points though, as it would be a fluffy fit for my army.
Look at the date, their tactica might not reflect the massive points drop warpsmiths got with the codex. As to their quality/usefulness: warpsmiths are pretty tanky cheap hqs, but their problem is they are slow and their weapons are pretty short ranged. Their heal only works on codex daemon engines and the +1 attack again is hindered by their slow movement (your maulerfiends will outdistance them quickly). The hellwright is better with his ride, but still a bit slow and is overcosted (didn't see a similar pts decrease to go with the warpsmith's). They are great if you need an extra hq and are using dakka helbrutes or forgefiends (or a tank line). Really too bad because I want to use them as every model they have is cool and they are ripe for conversions.
Didn't the FAQ make it that Hellwrights can't actually heal Hellforged models anymore because of their caged Daemon (or whatever it's called rule)? Makes Hellwrights pretty useless.
Here:
Pages 12-29
– Machina Malefica
Change this ability in all instances to read:
‘At the end of each Fight phase, roll a number of D6 for this model equal to the number of models that were
slain by it during this phase; for each dice that scores
a 5+, this model regains one lost wound. This model
cannot regain lost wounds by any other means.’
Niiru wrote: What are people's thoughts on the Hellwright? With or without the Dark Abeyance?
In the 1D4chan tactica (maybe not the most reliable source of unit overviews, but it's the only one out there that I know of), the Hellsmith is generally described as being a Warpsmith+1, with a couple stat boosts and a better weapon, and the option of having the Dark Abeyance.
...But it says that it's a worthwhile upgrade because "He is an extra twelve points compared to the Warpsmith".
Except that when I work it out, the basic Hellwright is actually 50 points more than a Warpsmith (83 to 133), and the Dark Abeyance version boosts that up to 178 points.
For that you get +1S, +1T, +1W, a soulburner and a better Axe, and the Aura that gives only Hellforged vehicles +1 Attack. (With the abeyance you get another wound, and 2" of movement, and an extra Heavy weapon that I couldn't judge if it's good or bad).
Thoughts? I mean for 10 more points you could get a psychic Daemon Prince. Pretty sure you can get a Chaos Lord + Sorceror for that kind of points. I do want the Hellwright to be worth it's points though, as it would be a fluffy fit for my army.
Look at the date, their tactica might not reflect the massive points drop warpsmiths got with the codex. As to their quality/usefulness: warpsmiths are pretty tanky cheap hqs, but their problem is they are slow and their weapons are pretty short ranged. Their heal only works on codex daemon engines and the +1 attack again is hindered by their slow movement (your maulerfiends will outdistance them quickly). The hellwright is better with his ride, but still a bit slow and is overcosted (didn't see a similar pts decrease to go with the warpsmith's). They are great if you need an extra hq and are using dakka helbrutes or forgefiends (or a tank line). Really too bad because I want to use them as every model they have is cool and they are ripe for conversions.
This is what concerned me. Even one Warpsmith/Hellwright isn't that great, as it can only heal one vehicle per turn for an average of 2 wounds - not terrible, but for the price of a Hellwright (or two warpsmiths) you can get a whole extra daemon engine with 8/10/12 wounds. Even if you had a tank line, only one tank can get a heal, and the +1 attacks is wasted.
I may just run a daemon prince or lord/sorcerer, and use the Hellwright/Warpsmith model as a counts as
mrhappyface wrote: Didn't the FAQ make it that Hellwrights can't actually heal Hellforged models anymore because of their caged Daemon (or whatever it's called rule)? Makes Hellwrights pretty useless.
Here:
Pages 12-29
– Machina Malefica
Change this ability in all instances to read:
‘At the end of each Fight phase, roll a number of D6 for this model equal to the number of models that were
slain by it during this phase; for each dice that scores
a 5+, this model regains one lost wound. This model
cannot regain lost wounds by any other means.’
That's what I meant when I said their heal only works on codex daemon engines (as opposed to FW ones), sorry if that wasn't clear.
Niiru wrote: What are people's thoughts on the Hellwright? With or without the Dark Abeyance?
In the 1D4chan tactica (maybe not the most reliable source of unit overviews, but it's the only one out there that I know of), the Hellsmith is generally described as being a Warpsmith+1, with a couple stat boosts and a better weapon, and the option of having the Dark Abeyance.
...But it says that it's a worthwhile upgrade because "He is an extra twelve points compared to the Warpsmith".
Except that when I work it out, the basic Hellwright is actually 50 points more than a Warpsmith (83 to 133), and the Dark Abeyance version boosts that up to 178 points.
For that you get +1S, +1T, +1W, a soulburner and a better Axe, and the Aura that gives only Hellforged vehicles +1 Attack. (With the abeyance you get another wound, and 2" of movement, and an extra Heavy weapon that I couldn't judge if it's good or bad).
Thoughts? I mean for 10 more points you could get a psychic Daemon Prince. Pretty sure you can get a Chaos Lord + Sorceror for that kind of points. I do want the Hellwright to be worth it's points though, as it would be a fluffy fit for my army.
1d4chan can be a great way to share information... if users updated the tactica when they found some new use for something, there is a new release or an FAQ has come out.
Anyone been using 20 man units with a chaos lord? With the 2 CP shoot twice thing and reroll 1s... suits Iron Warriors I can say.
Or even a 9 man biker unit+lordbiker, get into rapid fire range, then shoot again... thats 80 bolter shots rerolling ones..
I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I don't play competitively but I don't see mutilators having much use, even with warp time / advancing - the movement range gimps them so hard. 4 inch movement? Isn't there concern of getting kited?
ZergSmasher wrote: I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I'm going to be using skaven stormfiends as a base for some kitbashed ones. Shouldn't be too tricky.
It seems like Alpha legion is the best way to play berserkers actually, because of forward operatives. Have some cultist squads for objectives. Then have a bike sorceror for warp time, and a jump pack lord for rerolls of 1.
Then, bring one big squad of warptalons, and three big squad of berserkers.
Hope you get to go first. Use forward operatives to put 60 zerkers within 9.1 inches. Then advance move your sorceror 20 inches, jump pack in your lord, and your ten warp talons. Warp time the warp talons, charge them in first. They tie up everyone in combat. The rest of the zerkers then charge in.
With so much close combat, it might be better to bring zerkers with pistols instead of chainsword so that you can use your pistols to kill off any bubble wrap in front of you so that you can get to the more valuable units beyond.
If you go second, or opponent seizes initiative though... erm good luck! lol
This was the BfS Nova-Prep event I take it? I missed going (thanks elevator...), but I heard it was the Magnus show top-to-bottom. I'm disappointed I didn't get to go as I had expected that and a horde meta, and had built accordingly. :-p
And yeah... Chaos is in pretty excellent competitive shape, not the least reason being that Chaos Strategems are outright incredible.
Yeah there were at least 8 Magnus players that I saw. At least a few chaos players had not brought him. I remember when I did that. Oh youth
It really was a great event though. Signed up for their October GT on the spot. Of course, it helps that I can drive back and forth and don't need a hotel for that
I think Rubrics and Berzerkers could work pretty well. Rubrics want to be within 12 with their bolters and even closer with the flamers, so they can get nice and close while the Berzerkers keep them protected from close combat.
Five Berzerkers aren't going to do much to stop a charge, it won't take much to just shoot them out the way. In fact, they are potentially a liability - a canny foe may charge the zerks, and then position in a way that enables them to pile in to the rubrics without facing their overwatch. In fact, don't Flamer Rubrics often *want* to be charged, for the extra free hits? And if you want a small screening unit that can ride in a Rhino, surely the 2W, 5++, and foot speed of Possessed makes them ideal?
saint_red wrote: I think Rubrics and Berzerkers could work pretty well. Rubrics want to be within 12 with their bolters and even closer with the flamers, so they can get nice and close while the Berzerkers keep them protected from close combat.
The issue for me is that you lose flexibility. Yes they can have some of the same targets, but usually when you hit a squad of chaff units with berserkers, it's not like you say "man I wish I had shot them a few more times". Morale usually caps the squad.
Is there anything you can bring in your army that can force your maelific lords to auto peril? I heard some rumblings about that in my last tournament, but I can't think of anything because everything in your army is a "friendly target" and nothing comes to mind that would force it.
I guess the idea is to trigger the lords "mini-daemon prince stats" early enough in the game so that they'll survive the perils d3 MW test.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I just ordered some "Not Obliterators" from both Hitech Miniatures, and Wargames Exclusive. Both have, from the images at least, some gorgeous knock-offs.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I just ordered some "Not Obliterators" from both Hitech Miniatures, and Wargames Exclusive. Both have, from the images at least, some gorgeous knock-offs.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I'm going to be using skaven stormfiends as a base for some kitbashed ones. Shouldn't be too tricky.
WAY too big though. They are on 40mm bases, the storm fiends are on 60's. Messing with base size doesn't bother too many folks when it's a character conversion but a full unit starts to impact the game with that footprint.
I'd imagine Kataphron destroyers would make a pretty easy and awesome looking base for obliterators. The Myrmadon mechanicum models from forgeworld are also perfect.
Possessed and Warp Talons take advantage of force multipliers like no one else. They double dip from all chaos buffs and are affected by all spells, so there's a ton of combos you can do with them. All the heralds, changeling, tallyman, legion tactics, etc.
Eldenfirefly wrote: It seems like Alpha legion is the best way to play berserkers actually, because of forward operatives. Have some cultist squads for objectives. Then have a bike sorceror for warp time, and a jump pack lord for rerolls of 1.
Then, bring one big squad of warptalons, and three big squad of berserkers.
Hope you get to go first. Use forward operatives to put 60 zerkers within 9.1 inches. Then advance move your sorceror 20 inches, jump pack in your lord, and your ten warp talons. Warp time the warp talons, charge them in first. They tie up everyone in combat. The rest of the zerkers then charge in.
With so much close combat, it might be better to bring zerkers with pistols instead of chainsword so that you can use your pistols to kill off any bubble wrap in front of you so that you can get to the more valuable units beyond.
If you go second, or opponent seizes initiative though... erm good luck! lol
Or if they have transports, or a superheavy that fights CC or many other things. It's a fun list for a game or two but then it loses it's charm fast. I mean a flier and two transports would basically shield from that list, and those are common elements to your average list that wouldn't even need to be prepared for it.
lindsay40k wrote: Cultists vs Rhinos for screening, what's people's opinions?
A good contender IMO, since the Rhino can pull double-duty as a transport. Cultists are sooo cheap though and can have a huge footprint. I lean towards taking both
ZergSmasher wrote: I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I'm going to be using skaven stormfiends as a base for some kitbashed ones. Shouldn't be too tricky.
WAY too big though. They are on 40mm bases, the storm fiends are on 60's. Messing with base size doesn't bother too many folks when it's a character conversion but a full unit starts to impact the game with that footprint.
I'd imagine Kataphron destroyers would make a pretty easy and awesome looking base for obliterators. The Myrmadon mechanicum models from forgeworld are also perfect.
Meh, I view it as modeling for disadvantage (which I can't believe anybody would care about). Oblits want to be anywhere except in combat. I'm only planning on making one unit though, so it shouldn't be a big deal for denial purposes. Also, if it is an issue, I can always put them on 40mm bases as their actual footprint is pretty small.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I'm going to be using skaven stormfiends as a base for some kitbashed ones. Shouldn't be too tricky.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Just picked up the stormfiends box the other day and am going to remove the tails and swap out the head for an ogryn (or similar head). I'll be putting them on 40's to keep base sizing correct. Once I convert them up, I'll post some pictures.
On another note:
Has anyone tried using Renegade artilery to supplement a CSM force? I know R&H infantry got crippled, but some of the IG big guns seem like they'd be nice to sit in the back while short/mid ranged CSM killers apply pressure.
I'm currently looking to try a Collosus Bombard and maybe some Basilisk batteries in a spearhead detachment (good place to stick a mal lord without messing with legion tacitcs too).
For 150pts, the Bombard spits out 2D6 S6 AP-2 D D3 shots that can hit anywhere on the table, even out of sight. My berserker waves have often had trouble with devistators or other firesupport units tucked away behind the front lines, so some arty seems like a nice addition.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'd love to run some Obliterators, but I absolutely hate the models. Do any of you guys know of any good "counts-as" type models for Obliterators? Failing that, is there anything that would relatively easily be converted into Obliterators?
Also, how do people feel about Obliterators' melee cousins, the Mutilators? Are they worth their points?
I'm going to be using skaven stormfiends as a base for some kitbashed ones. Shouldn't be too tricky.
WAY too big though. They are on 40mm bases, the storm fiends are on 60's. Messing with base size doesn't bother too many folks when it's a character conversion but a full unit starts to impact the game with that footprint.
I'd imagine Kataphron destroyers would make a pretty easy and awesome looking base for obliterators. The Myrmadon mechanicum models from forgeworld are also perfect.
I plan to use Myrmidon Destructors as Obliterators in my Dark Mechanicum army I'm in the process of planning out
If mutilators weren't awful I'd use Secutors for them, but alas they're terrible.
On another note:
Has anyone tried using Renegade artilery to supplement a CSM force? I know R&H infantry got crippled, but some of the IG big guns seem like they'd be nice to sit in the back while short/mid ranged CSM killers apply pressure.
I'm currently looking to try a Collosus Bombard and maybe some Basilisk batteries in a spearhead detachment (good place to stick a mal lord without messing with legion tacitcs too).
For 150pts, the Bombard spits out 2D6 S6 AP-2 D D3 shots that can hit anywhere on the table, even out of sight. My berserker waves have often had trouble with devistators or other firesupport units tucked away behind the front lines, so some arty seems like a nice addition.
Did renegade infantry get crippled? I thought they seemed fairly good for their cheap cost. I was considering running a renegade cultist/militia detachment as my "troops"/ bodies, and having my main detachment being my Mechanicus. Seemed fluffy, and I thought better than just standard cultist blobs.
Though they do lose out on getting the legion trait.
Had a great game that showed the strength of noise marines today it was a 75pl game in konor at the local GW. My opponent tried to alpha strike me with 2 trmpestus command squads and 2 regular tempestus squads. All of his tempestus where dead before i even got to my turn 1 and he killed 11 noise marines out of 30.
Rydria wrote: Had a great game that showed the strength of noise marines today it was a 75pl game in konor at the local GW. My opponent tried to alpha strike me with 2 trmpestus command squads and 2 regular tempestus squads. All of his tempestus where dead before i even got to my turn 1 and he killed 11 noise marines out of 30.
Rydria wrote: Had a great game that showed the strength of noise marines today it was a 75pl game in konor at the local GW. My opponent tried to alpha strike me with 2 trmpestus command squads and 2 regular tempestus squads. All of his tempestus where dead before i even got to my turn 1 and he killed 11 noise marines out of 30.
75 pl is what 1500 pts? Glad to hear you did well.
Rydria wrote: Had a great game that showed the strength of noise marines today it was a 75pl game in konor at the local GW. My opponent tried to alpha strike me with 2 trmpestus command squads and 2 regular tempestus squads. All of his tempestus where dead before i even got to my turn 1 and he killed 11 noise marines out of 30.
Nice! What did your list look like?
Battalion (wysiwyg) emperor's children
Chaos lord - power sword, bolt pistol
Chaos sorcerer - (force staff, bolt pistol, warptime, prescience)
10 noise marines - (8 sonic blasters, 1 doom siren, 2 blastmasters, 1 icon of excess)
10 noise marines - (same ^)
10 noise marines - (same ^)
Elite detachment emperor's children
Daemon prince - (talons, intoxicating elixir, delightful agonies) (warlord +1 wound and 6+++)
Chaos decimator - (butcher cannon x2)
Hellbrute - (x2 blastmaster, power scourge)
Hellbrute - (x2 blastmaster, power scourge)
Rydria wrote: Had a great game that showed the strength of noise marines today it was a 75pl game in konor at the local GW. My opponent tried to alpha strike me with 2 trmpestus command squads and 2 regular tempestus squads. All of his tempestus where dead before i even got to my turn 1 and he killed 11 noise marines out of 30.
75 pl is what 1500 pts? Glad to hear you did well.
Thanks I really enjoyed the game, Emperor's children feel really solid at the moment.
Did renegade infantry get crippled? I thought they seemed fairly good for their cheap cost. I was considering running a renegade cultist/militia detachment as my "troops"/ bodies, and having my main detachment being my Mechanicus. Seemed fluffy, and I thought better than just standard cultist blobs.
Though they do lose out on getting the legion trait.
They're 4pts each for worse WS, BS, and leadership than both IG infantry and cultists (which are 4pts now in the codex). Compared to IG infantry, theyre worse in every possible way and have nothing equating orders. Compared to CSM cultists, they're also worse in every possible way, and lose out to legion tactics and stratagems now.
In 7th, they had some cool tricks in that they were both incredibly cheap (no longer the case), and had things like respawning bodies, artillery tyrants, or demagogue buffs (no longer the case, and the devotions that remained are all terrible)
They lost everything that made them flavourful, now they're just terrible IG with none of the mechanics that make that army work.
For hordes of troops, just use CSM cultists. They get legion traits, obsec, combo with character buffs, and can respawn with the stratagem.
The only decent things unique to the R&H book are the Psyker Lord (who'll probably get a FAQ point increase because he's frankly, broken), and Marauder sniper squads, which are half decent and bring something new (chaos snipers).
Did renegade infantry get crippled? I thought they seemed fairly good for their cheap cost. I was considering running a renegade cultist/militia detachment as my "troops"/ bodies, and having my main detachment being my Mechanicus. Seemed fluffy, and I thought better than just standard cultist blobs.
Though they do lose out on getting the legion trait.
They're 4pts each for worse WS, BS, and leadership than both IG infantry and cultists (which are 4pts now in the codex). Compared to IG infantry, theyre worse in every possible way and have nothing equating orders. Compared to CSM cultists, they're also worse in every possible way, and lose out to legion tactics and stratagems now.
In 7th, they had some cool tricks in that they were both incredibly cheap (no longer the case), and had things like respawning bodies, artillery tyrants, or demagogue buffs (no longer the case, and the devotions that remained are all terrible)
They lost everything that made them flavourful, now they're just terrible IG with none of the mechanics that make that army work.
For hordes of troops, just use CSM cultists. They get legion traits, obsec, combo with character buffs, and can respawn with the stratagem.
The only decent things unique to the R&H book are the Psyker Lord (who'll probably get a FAQ point increase because he's frankly, broken), and Marauder sniper squads, which are half decent and bring something new (chaos snipers).
Fair enough. I shall instead look at plain cultists. I was hoping to have a bit of a better choice of troops, as my proposed Mechanicum army wouldn't really suit having a bunch of space marines in it. (Plus they're pretty expensive, and take points away from my HORDE OF ROBOTS)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
In which case, just to get my options clear, how good are the other "troops" options, such as bloodletters and daemonettes?
If I include daemons in a detachment, I assume the whole detachment loses traits etc?
I haven't done the maths but I don't think Forgefiends are worth their points. Other things to look at are Havocs, Predators or if you want to to keep the daemon engine theme going shooty Decimators, Contemptors and Leviathans can work well. There was some in depth maths hammer a while back that showed the dual butcher cannon Leviathan is very efficient.
Maulerfiends look absolutely excellent and I'm keen to get one myself. Again, I'd recommend looking at our dreadnought options too. Keep in mind that our dreadnoughts get Legion traits whereas the Fiends don't.
Finally, remember that the awesome Daemonforge stratagem is only once per phase, so it lends itself to being used by a more expensive and effective unit.
saint_red wrote: There was some in depth maths hammer a while back that showed the dual butcher cannon Leviathan is very efficient.
Can anyome point to where?
I really want a dreadnought of some description for my Death Guard (and don't see the codex providing something that would nullify the usefullness of the Forgeworld dreads, so I'm not too worried about pulling the trigger before it arrives - gives me time to paint it before I end up with a big pile of terminators), and can't decide on which one or its loadout. I hate the Hellbrute model, but I'm a big fan of the scuplts of Contemptors, Deredeos, Leviathans, and Decimators so the door is wide open, really. I want it to primarily function as a heavy weapons platform and don't intend on it seeing close combat. Mostly I find myself fighting Marines but GSC and Orks are semi-regular adversaries, too.
What are folks' favourite dread setups?
EDIT: Oh, I fully intend to magnetise the arms on whatever one I go for, but I only want to spend the money on two to start with.
(I know that this would be stupidly expensive for a one-note army. I'm just curious as to whether it has any merit in the first place.)
I'm basically working on an army theme with the same basic idea, except I plan to vary my choices. I may have 2 maulerfiends, but I'm tempted by 1 mauler and 1 blood slaughterer. Instead of forgefiends, I was going to have a Deredeo or Leviathan, and a decimator and a contemptor. All with different but hopefully complimentary loadouts.
Still working on the basics though, as contemptors are expensive in points so may not be worth it. Decimators seem to be good though.
saint_red wrote:I haven't done the maths but I don't think Forgefiends are worth their points. Other things to look at are Havocs, Predators or if you want to to keep the daemon engine theme going shooty Decimators, Contemptors and Leviathans can work well. There was some in depth maths hammer a while back that showed the dual butcher cannon Leviathan is very efficient.
Maulerfiends look absolutely excellent and I'm keen to get one myself. Again, I'd recommend looking at our dreadnought options too. Keep in mind that our dreadnoughts get Legion traits whereas the Fiends don't.
I'd also be interested if anyone could point us in the right direction for the leviathan mathammer. It's a unit I'm interested in, either that or a Deredeo, but the Deredeo comes out as 100 points cheaper for much the same weaponry. The Leviathan seems more expensive because it's built for both shooting and melee, and you can take two super-weapons (Deredeo can only take 1 plus a Havoc Launcher, which isn't bad). 100 points is a lot to make up the difference in killiness with.
nfe wrote:[/spoiler]
saint_red wrote: There was some in depth maths hammer a while back that showed the dual butcher cannon Leviathan is very efficient.
Can anyome point to where?
I really want a dreadnought of some description for my Death Guard (and don't see the codex providing something that would nullify the usefullness of the Forgeworld dreads, so I'm not too worried about pulling the trigger before it arrives - gives me time to paint it before I end up with a big pile of terminators), and can't decide on which one or its loadout. I hate the Hellbrute model, but I'm a big fan of the scuplts of Contemptors, Deredeos, Leviathans, and Decimators so the door is wide open, really.[spoiler]
I want it to primarily function as a heavy weapons platform and don't intend on it seeing close combat. Mostly I find myself fighting Marines but GSC and Orks are semi-regular adversaries, too.
What are folks' favourite dread setups?
Leviathan w/ Butcher Array and Grav Flux is a delightfully killy beast. Expensive though.
Decimators have some good loadout options. 2xButcher Cannon is good for just shooting, 2xClaw+2xHellflamer is the close combat beast, and you can also have 1xClaw/Hellflamer + 1xStorm Laser, for something that can shoot while closing in on the enemy. They all seem like good option.
I also liked the idea of a Contemptor with Deathclaw, Chainfist, and 2x Soulburner. Seemed like a nasty unit to run into the enemy. But it's 250 points so pretty pricey.
Question on modelling a Juggerlord. Using AoS Blood Warriors as zerkers, do the skullcrusher knights vary in size much compared to the warriors? Or will using it make him look like a midget next to his own zerkers?
I think a walker list seems like great fun and possibly competitive. I just got a bloodslaughterer, a maulerfiend, and a leviathan. Next up is a contemptor. Magnetizing is a must in my opinion, but to start I plan on using butcher cannons on the leviathan, lashers on the fiend, and a pair of chainfist w/soulburners on the contemptor. Those 4 big hitters and a slaanesh dp with exilir and diabloic strength run just under 1200 points and all pose a serious threat. The rest of my army will probably change from game to game, but I currently have 2 options I like. The first is a pair of rhinos with berzerkers, dark apostle, and exalted champion for max assault. The second option would be some havocs, cultists, and a lord for the rerolls. All of that would hangout with the leviathan while the other big guys rush foward.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I think a walker list seems like great fun and possibly competitive. I just got a bloodslaughterer, a maulerfiend, and a leviathan. Next up is a contemptor. Magnetizing is a must in my opinion, but to start I plan on using butcher cannons on the leviathan, lashers on the fiend, and a pair of chainfist w/soulburners on the contemptor. Those 4 big hitters and a slaanesh dp with exilir and diabloic strength run just under 1200 points and all pose a serious threat. The rest of my army will probably change from game to game, but I currently have 2 options I like. The first is a pair of rhinos with berzerkers, dark apostle, and exalted champion for max assault. The second option would be some havocs, cultists, and a lord for the rerolls. All of that would hangout with the leviathan while the other big guys rush foward.
I've been looking at the same thing (that may be what you're responding to), and also liked the leviathan, but I'd also say to take a look at the Deredeo. You can still get the Butcher Array, and a Havoc Launcher or a 5++ bubble shield. No grav flux as a second weapon, but it's also 100 points cheaper.
107pts for a Lord with 2x Lightning Claws, Steed, counts as Slaanesh Daemon and <Legion>. On the charge it would have 7 S4 ap-1 1d Attacks and 2 S4 ap- 1d Attacks. It can be buffed by a Herald, as it's a Daemon, bringing all of those to S5. Has a 12" Move, and can advance/charge.
Now, I very well may just want an excuse to convert 6 of these, but can anyone let me know if I've made an error here? These seem amazing. Especially with the new CSM Codex powers/stratagems/legion traits.
107pts for a Lord with 2x Lightning Claws, Steed, counts as Slaanesh Daemon and <Legion>. On the charge it would have 7 S4 ap-1 1d Attacks and 2 S4 ap- 1d Attacks. It can be buffed by a Herald, as it's a Daemon, bringing all of those to S5. Has a 12" Move, and can advance/charge.
Now, I very well may just want an excuse to convert 6 of these, but can anyone let me know if I've made an error here? These seem amazing. Especially with the new CSM Codex powers/stratagems/legion traits.
Well, you have missed one major thing - Traits (and a lot of the other buffs) only work on Infanty, Bikes and Helbrutes. All the mounted Lords count as Cavalry, and so don't get any of the CSM traits anymore. I think some strategems and psychic powers also can't affect them. They'll only benefit from daemon buffs, and some of the auras.
Edit - like 3 people responded with this while I was slow typing haha.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry
You'd think there would be an FAQ on that. Or did nobody bother to ask?
I suspect it's intended, as they are more daemon than space marine if they're using the chaos steeds etc. It's the drawback of getting the better mount. However they do get some bonus' due to the daemon buffs, so it's not all bad. Can't remember what they are, you'd have to check. Think they get +1 strength near a herald, at least.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I think a walker list seems like great fun and possibly competitive. I just got a bloodslaughterer, a maulerfiend, and a leviathan. Next up is a contemptor. Magnetizing is a must in my opinion, but to start I plan on using butcher cannons on the leviathan, lashers on the fiend, and a pair of chainfist w/soulburners on the contemptor. Those 4 big hitters and a slaanesh dp with exilir and diabloic strength run just under 1200 points and all pose a serious threat. The rest of my army will probably change from game to game, but I currently have 2 options I like. The first is a pair of rhinos with berzerkers, dark apostle, and exalted champion for max assault. The second option would be some havocs, cultists, and a lord for the rerolls. All of that would hangout with the leviathan while the other big guys rush foward.
I've been looking at the same thing (that may be what you're responding to), and also liked the leviathan, but I'd also say to take a look at the Deredeo. You can still get the Butcher Array, and a Havoc Launcher or a 5++ bubble shield. No grav flux as a second weapon, but it's also 100 points cheaper.
Ya, kind of which I looked at more before I bought the leviathan, but its a cool model so no big loss. Plus I plan on magentizing tye arms so I can switch between butcher cannons, grav-flux, and siege claws. But i definitely think the Deredeo has a place in a list such as this.
Question, is the deredeo's butcher array two butcher cannons (so 16 shots) or is it different?
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I think a walker list seems like great fun and possibly competitive. I just got a bloodslaughterer, a maulerfiend, and a leviathan. Next up is a contemptor. Magnetizing is a must in my opinion, but to start I plan on using butcher cannons on the leviathan, lashers on the fiend, and a pair of chainfist w/soulburners on the contemptor. Those 4 big hitters and a slaanesh dp with exilir and diabloic strength run just under 1200 points and all pose a serious threat. The rest of my army will probably change from game to game, but I currently have 2 options I like. The first is a pair of rhinos with berzerkers, dark apostle, and exalted champion for max assault. The second option would be some havocs, cultists, and a lord for the rerolls. All of that would hangout with the leviathan while the other big guys rush foward.
I've been looking at the same thing (that may be what you're responding to), and also liked the leviathan, but I'd also say to take a look at the Deredeo. You can still get the Butcher Array, and a Havoc Launcher or a 5++ bubble shield. No grav flux as a second weapon, but it's also 100 points cheaper.
Ya, kind of which I looked at more before I bought the leviathan, but its a cool model so no big loss. Plus I plan on magentizing tye arms so I can switch between butcher cannons, grav-flux, and siege claws. But i definitely think the Deredeo has a place in a list such as this.
Question, is the deredeo's butcher array two butcher cannons (so 16 shots) or is it different?
An array is two butcher cannons, so it's 8 shots. A cannon is only 4 shots. Leviathan has an array, same as the deredeo. They're also the same base size. There's no reason you can't field the Leviathan model as a deredeo and vice versa, especially if you're magnetising the weapon options.
I'm finding that Warp Talons do a decent job of killing TEQ or MEQ on the turn they arrive by deep strike, but very quickly my opponnents tend to tear them apart the following turn. What do you scions of the dark powers recommend to keep them alive after they've hit the first target? They seem like too much of a points sink not to keep around.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Question, is the deredeo's butcher array two butcher cannons (so 16 shots) or is it different?
Re-read the weapon name.
On the subject of the Dorito, what if you tag teamed it with a Fire Raptor and a biker sorcerer? Give them all Alpha Legion keyword, give the Dorito a Hellfire veil and make the Sorcerer Nurgle. Infiltrate the Dorito 26" ahead of the Raptor, Fly the Raptor forward 20" and flat out the Sorcerer, cast the -1 to hit on the Dorito. You now have a Fire Raptor with 3+/5++ and a -1 to hit it and a Dorito with 3+/5++ and -1 to hit. Butcher cannon array, Twin Heavy bolter, 2x Quad Heavy bolter, twin bolt cannon and 2x twin Lascannons on some pretty tough targets. You could also infiltrate forward some cultists for screening (they'll have a 5++ now too), throw in a Terminator Lord too for some re-rolls to hit.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Question, is the deredeo's butcher array two butcher cannons (so 16 shots) or is it different?
Re-read the weapon name.
On the subject of the Dorito, what if you tag teamed it with a Fire Raptor and a biker sorcerer? Give them all Alpha Legion keyword, give the Dorito a Hellfire veil and make the Sorcerer Nurgle. Infiltrate the Dorito 26" ahead of the Raptor, Fly the Raptor forward 20" and flat out the Sorcerer, cast the -1 to hit on the Dorito. You now have a Fire Raptor with 3+/5++ and a -1 to hit it and a Dorito with 3+/5++ and -1 to hit. Butcher cannon array, Twin Heavy bolter, 2x Quad Heavy bolter, twin bolt cannon and 2x twin Lascannons on some pretty tough targets. You could also infiltrate forward some cultists for screening (they'll have a 5++ now too), throw in a Terminator Lord too for some re-rolls to hit.
Thoughts?
I stopped reading this at "infiltrate the dorito". I assume you're trying to use the Alpha strategem to do that, but you can't. Infantry only.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Question, is the deredeo's butcher array two butcher cannons (so 16 shots) or is it different?
Re-read the weapon name.
On the subject of the Dorito, what if you tag teamed it with a Fire Raptor and a biker sorcerer? Give them all Alpha Legion keyword, give the Dorito a Hellfire veil and make the Sorcerer Nurgle. Infiltrate the Dorito 26" ahead of the Raptor, Fly the Raptor forward 20" and flat out the Sorcerer, cast the -1 to hit on the Dorito. You now have a Fire Raptor with 3+/5++ and a -1 to hit it and a Dorito with 3+/5++ and -1 to hit. Butcher cannon array, Twin Heavy bolter, 2x Quad Heavy bolter, twin bolt cannon and 2x twin Lascannons on some pretty tough targets. You could also infiltrate forward some cultists for screening (they'll have a 5++ now too), throw in a Terminator Lord too for some re-rolls to hit.
Thoughts?
I stopped reading this at "infiltrate the dorito". I assume you're trying to use the Alpha strategem to do that, but you can't. Infantry only.
Damn, I'm thinking of Legion tactics permitions. I guess you could go the expensive route and drop him in with a drop pod.
Ok, i was thinking the deredeo's butcher set up was twice the shots of the leviathan. What is the durability of the deredeo vs the levithan. I havent really looked in to the deredeo that much yet.
Cephalobeard wrote: The ability to be affected by Heralds/Daemon powers seems like a worthy enough trade off, potentially.
Model them as half snake marines and use them as possessed Lords ? In a all daemon chaos space marine army it would be really cool thematically.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played 2000 pt game today of emperor's children vs Guliman firebase + assassins
Won 13 - 1 victory points losing only first blood, I only had 1 Hellbrute and the daemon prince left on the last turn I ignored Guliman and ran away for 2 turns, he had 5 scout snipers, a captain, a redemptor, a celuxes assassin and guliman left.
Fire frenzy was absolutely amazing this game I used it 3 times 4d3 missile launcher shots from the blastmaster is absolutely brutal very tempted to actually take missile launchers on my Hellbrutes, but I feel like I need to Cqc weapon vs alpha strike armies.
Battalion Emperor's children
Daemon prince – 190 (talons, warp bolter, intoxicating exlier, Delightful agonies) (warlord stimulated by pain)
Chaos Terminator Lord – 129 (Chainfist, combi bolter)
5 Noise Marines – 111 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
5 Noise Marines – 111 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
5 Noise Marines – 111 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
jbeil wrote: I'm finding that Warp Talons do a decent job of killing TEQ or MEQ on the turn they arrive by deep strike, but very quickly my opponnents tend to tear them apart the following turn. What do you scions of the dark powers recommend to keep them alive after they've hit the first target? They seem like too much of a points sink not to keep around.
be Alpha Legion
be Night Lords and burn a CP be Tzeentch and land near Changeling
be marked not Khorne and cast your special spell on them
co-ordinate landing with Fiends being proximate and entangle some survivors of the charge who can't FLY
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Question, is the deredeo's butcher array two butcher cannons (so 16 shots) or is it different?
Re-read the weapon name.
On the subject of the Dorito, what if you tag teamed it with a Fire Raptor and a biker sorcerer? Give them all Alpha Legion keyword, give the Dorito a Hellfire veil and make the Sorcerer Nurgle. Infiltrate the Dorito 26" ahead of the Raptor, Fly the Raptor forward 20" and flat out the Sorcerer, cast the -1 to hit on the Dorito. You now have a Fire Raptor with 3+/5++ and a -1 to hit it and a Dorito with 3+/5++ and -1 to hit. Butcher cannon array, Twin Heavy bolter, 2x Quad Heavy bolter, twin bolt cannon and 2x twin Lascannons on some pretty tough targets. You could also infiltrate forward some cultists for screening (they'll have a 5++ now too), throw in a Terminator Lord too for some re-rolls to hit.
Thoughts?
Also, because I'm an idiot, I forgot AL trait already gives them a -1 to hit on everything but the Fire Raptor.
Just got home and looked at the leviathan datasheet my friend printed out for me. I was confused on the name (which was mentioned above) and thus didnt understand the answers I got. With the faq the leviathan can take 2 butcher cannon arrays, which are each heavy 8, for a total of 16 shots. Is the deredeo the same or is it only able to take a single butcher cannon array?
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Just got home and looked at the leviathan datasheet my friend printed out for me. I was confused on the name (which was mentioned above) and thus didnt understand the answers I got. With the faq the leviathan can take 2 butcher cannon arrays, which are each heavy 8, for a total of 16 shots. Is the deredeo the same or is it only able to take a single butcher cannon array?
Ahh I see, yeh only a single array. But can also take a second option of either -
- A 5++ shield bubble that works on anything nearby the doredeo
OR
- A havoc missile launcher, which doesn't need LoS and has 3D3 shots.
The havoc isn't quite as good as a butcher array, but it's not bad and you can target enemies you can't see. It's probably better than a butcher cannon, but slightly below a butcher array. Depends on what you target though. The 5++ option might be the better choice, if you have a load of shooty stuff to put near the doredeo. I havent yet decided which loadout I would use, but either way it still works out about 100 points cheaper than the leviathan. Only other difference I can see is -1 toughness and -2 attacks, but if you're going shooty the attacks dont matter much.
That 5++ bubble seems great to go with a small gunline, which is something I am working on. Does it apply to all units of said LEGION or are there other restrictions? Might end up proxing that to try it with some havocs. Someone said its similar in size as the leviathan or the contemptor? If it works out, I may get one to tag along with the double butcher array leviathan, HB havoc squad, lascannon havoc squad, and a lord. Roughly 900 points for all that, but thats a lot of firepower.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: That 5++ bubble seems great to go with a small gunline, which is something I am working on. Does it apply to all units of said LEGION or are there other restrictions? Might end up proxing that to try it with some havocs. Someone said its similar in size as the leviathan or the contemptor? If it works out, I may get one to tag along with the double butcher array leviathan, HB havoc squad, lascannon havoc squad, and a lord. Roughly 900 points for all that, but thats a lot of firepower.
Deredeo and the Leviathan share a base size (80mm I think). Contemptor is on standard dreadnought base (60mm).
I have a model I have in mind as my "Heavy" dreadnought, which I will use as a proxy for either a doredeo or a leviathan depending on what I find most useful.
I'd say you could use a Levi as a Dorito, and vice versa, but a contemptor would be pushing it because of the difference in base size and model size. Modelling for advantage etc.
Edit: oh, and yeh its just <LEGION> for the 5++, so anything in the same legion would be fine.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry
Fair enough. Not incredibly important if doing a Melee Alpha Legion unit, anyway. Would still get use of "I am Alpharius"
Now make it Alpha Legion, give it Blade of the Hydra, and buff it using a sorcerer with Diabolic Strength.
Chaos Lord on Steed is my favorite low cost solopwnmobile.
Yeah. I'm slowly growing on adding a few of them in a Supreme Command with a Daemon Prince to play Alpharius swaps. They move incredibly quickly and do a very decent amount of attacks.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry
Fair enough. Not incredibly important if doing a Melee Alpha Legion unit, anyway. Would still get use of "I am Alpharius"
Now make it Alpha Legion, give it Blade of the Hydra, and buff it using a sorcerer with Diabolic Strength.
Chaos Lord on Steed is my favorite low cost solopwnmobile.
Yeah. I'm slowly growing on adding a few of them in a Supreme Command with a Daemon Prince to play Alpharius swaps. They move incredibly quickly and do a very decent amount of attacks.
107pts for a Lord with 2x Lightning Claws, Steed, counts as Slaanesh Daemon and <Legion>. On the charge it would have 7 S4 ap-1 1d Attacks and 2 S4 ap- 1d Attacks. It can be buffed by a Herald, as it's a Daemon, bringing all of those to S5. Has a 12" Move, and can advance/charge.
Now, I very well may just want an excuse to convert 6 of these, but can anyone let me know if I've made an error here? These seem amazing. Especially with the new CSM Codex powers/stratagems/legion traits.
Well, you have missed one major thing - Traits (and a lot of the other buffs) only work on Infanty, Bikes and Helbrutes. All the mounted Lords count as Cavalry, and so don't get any of the CSM traits anymore. I think some strategems and psychic powers also can't affect them. They'll only benefit from daemon buffs, and some of the auras.
Edit - like 3 people responded with this while I was slow typing haha.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Wouldn't benefit from legion traits, as it's cavalry not infantry
You'd think there would be an FAQ on that. Or did nobody bother to ask?
I suspect it's intended, as they are more daemon than space marine if they're using the chaos steeds etc. It's the drawback of getting the better mount. However they do get some bonus' due to the daemon buffs, so it's not all bad. Can't remember what they are, you'd have to check. Think they get +1 strength near a herald, at least.
Not really. They're just Space Marines on Demonic Mounts. It shouldn't stop someone from being Alpha Legion and getting the -1 to be shot at, or for a Juggerlord with a Combi-Bolter to lose ignoring cover as Iron Warriors.
cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (
On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?
In no particular order (things I've played with)
1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)
Rydria wrote: cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (
On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?
In no particular order (things I've played with)
1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)
Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?
Rydria wrote: cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (
On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?
In no particular order (things I've played with)
1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)
Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?
Mine keep dying early when they don't they do lots of damage.
Do not underestimate that trait. It has let me basically rip apart and hold against some nasty assault armies like Genestealer cults and such.
It isn't great verse a gun line but it can really ruin people's days. Plus if you get the charge off you will be ripping apart folks no problem especially if you can back them in a corner making falling back hard.
Rydria wrote: cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (
On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?
In no particular order (things I've played with)
1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)
Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?
Mine keep dying early when they don't they do lots of damage.
Do not underestimate that trait. It has let me basically rip apart and hold against some nasty assault armies like Genestealer cults and such.
It isn't great verse a gun line but it can really ruin people's days. Plus if you get the charge off you will be ripping apart folks no problem especially if you can back them in a corner making falling back hard.
It just seemed not so powerful because its basically useless in the first round of any combat, so it's only good if a combat lasts multiple rounds. And that's without the enemy doing any falling back, or having other units charge into the combat. I doubt most of our units will survive in combat long enough to take advantage of it, unless you take large sized squads.
Rydria wrote: cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (
On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?
In no particular order (things I've played with)
1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)
Sonic helbrutes dop seem good, but the emperors children trait is pretty bad. Are they good enough to forfeit a trait for?
Mine keep dying early when they don't they do lots of damage.
Do not underestimate that trait. It has let me basically rip apart and hold against some nasty assault armies like Genestealer cults and such.
It isn't great verse a gun line but it can really ruin people's days. Plus if you get the charge off you will be ripping apart folks no problem especially if you can back them in a corner making falling back hard.
It just seemed not so powerful because its basically useless in the first round of any combat, so it's only good if a combat lasts multiple rounds. And that's without the enemy doing any falling back, or having other units charge into the combat. I doubt most of our units will survive in combat long enough to take advantage of it, unless you take large sized squads.
I could be wrong though.
Where it comes in is during multiple charges. A single unit charging a single unit doesn't change. If you get charged by two units one of your units gets to strike before at least one of the enemy units without spending any cps. This really forces your opponent to make choices. And EC units both noise marines and everything else aren't push overs in combat.
Alternating combats on your enemies charge is really powerful.
It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.
Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.
Fringe benefits of Word Bearers: not losing Legion trait on Daemon-mounted characters
Actually, that is pretty decent. Can bring a Steed Lord, couple of Heralds, and some Fiends or Flamers, still use my *brilliant* Legion Stratagem, and not lose out on my *brilliant* Morale re-rolls as they only really matter to my *brilliant* hordes anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rydria wrote: cavalry not being getting legion traits doesn't make sense but unfortunately I don't see them FAQing it since there legacy rules now : (
On a more positive note what are peoples top 5 units ?
In no particular order (things I've played with)
1) Noise Marines
2) Sonic Hellbrutes
3) Daemon prince (intoxicating elixir)
4) Plasmacide Terminators (Expensive but they do get the job done)
5) Chaos Sorcerer/Chaos Lord (tie)
Sorcerers are amazing on paper but it's been over a month since I actually succeeded in casting anything, losing scalability and ability to throw a dozen dice at a critical power has hurt them a lot imo
What are peoples opinions on an msu chosen squad with combi-bolters as a deepstrike/infiltrating denial unit? 90pts for 5 csm with an extra attack and combi-bolters, but dont have obsec. They are only there to stop alpha strikes and just generally get in the opponents way. They are not much of threat so the opponent wont want to shoot them, but they cant be entirely ignored either.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: What are peoples opinions on an msu chosen squad with combi-bolters as a deepstrike/infiltrating denial unit? 90pts for 5 csm with an extra attack and combi-bolters, but dont have obsec. They are only there to stop alpha strikes and just generally get in the opponents way. They are not much of threat so the opponent wont want to shoot them, but they cant be entirely ignored either.
why would you ever use combi-bolter chosen over sonic blaster noise marines ?
How effective do you guys think the Lord of Skulls would be as a distraction target? I mean, its big, imposing, and looks scary. Yet, if you swop out its Hades gun for the skull hurler, its only 537 points. (pretty reasonable for something that is 28W, T8, 5++ save, with infernal regeneration).
If you run it in a world eaters army that wants to go up and smash the opponent to bits. Think it would work? I mean, LOS is pretty hardy. It can probably take one or even two turns of shooting to kill. And that will allow the rest of the army to get into melee range and kill stuff.
I threw together a rough list. Full world eaters army.
2 daemon princes of Khorne with wings, warp bolters, (one of them with talismen of burning blood).
3 squads of 8 zerkers, one plasma pistol, the champ with power fist, the rest with chain axes inside 3 Rhinos with combi meltas.
Two Hellbrutes with multi melta and hellbrute fists with heavy flamers.
And one big mean Lord of skulls with skull hurlers and gorestorm cannon.
So, if I get first turn, everyone can advance move and shoot, because the Rhinos melta, hellbrutes and even the warp bolters on the DPs are all assault weapons. The LOS will move 10, and use daemonforge to shoot everything it has too. The strategy won't change even if I go second. Everyone advance move and shoots.
Second turn, I should be able to unload my 3 squads of zerkers, everyone move, shoots and then charge into combat and when they do, the world eaters trait of +1 attack on the charge is going to be so yummy! I am hoping that opponent focused on my LOS which will tank the shooting, so that the rest of the army can charge into close combat mostly intact. I usually wouldn't use hellbrutes because they tend to get shot up before they reach combat, but with the LOS distraction carnefix around, maybe they might work?
The question is simply: do those 600 points earn their value back consistently. Try out the list against different armies and players. It should be a few games, since you want to see the statistical average (mathematically speaking you would want to have a solid population with >40 data points to speak of statistical soundness).
In my opinion there are two possibilities: the opponent ignores the LoS and uses the time to shoot the rest of the army to pieces. This might happen with a deep strike heavy army, where you can't use the LoS to hide your melees out of line of sight (also LOS, lol). The LoS is strong, but on its own it won't be able to win a game, since you can't get to multiple objectives fast or fulfill objective like "cast spells". So it also depends on the mission type and goals.
The other possibility is that after 2 turns of shooting and advancing you lost 600 points and have your melee units in his face, hopefully. How good this goes might depend on the overall points value. In ~1800 points this would be a third of your army while he has those 600 points in multiple units, which you won't be able to charge all in the same turn. Also he might have tarpits or blocking units which prevent you from reaching your targets, e.g. Scarab Swarms or Nurglings.
So, bottom line: this sounds fun to try, but might be a bit situational. I think it won't be cover-all-corners thing, but a fun list nonetheless.
I also think the cavalry decission was intented, and I am really pissed off since I already started converting a Lord on a Disc of Tzeentch for my Alpha Legion to get the -1 to hit from the Changelling and +1 ST from the Herald on Disc. Now I must decide what to do:
· Keeping the same idea and lossing the AL trait. The Lord would keep getting the buffs from Tzeentch Daemons but that also mean he would not get into CC until turn 2 (if lucky).
· Going full Termie: a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour dropping in turn 1 with my termies and a Sorceror in Terminator armor. Will be sure that he buffs the termies on turn 1 rerrolling 1's but would not charge since the Sorcerer will cast Prescience and Warptime on the Termies. Also, quite pricy.
· A Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: could make the same that the termie one but with higher movility after the drop. A second Sorcerer could cast Diabolic Strength on him and crossing fingers he gets a cool Warlord trait in addition to 'I am Alpharius'
ochobits wrote: I also think the cavalry decission was intented, and I am really pissed off since I already started converting a Lord on a Disc of Tzeentch for my Alpha Legion to get the -1 to hit from the Changelling and +1 ST from the Herald on Disc. Now I must decide what to do:
· Keeping the same idea and lossing the AL trait. The Lord would keep getting the buffs from Tzeentch Daemons but that also mean he would not get into CC until turn 2 (if lucky).
· Going full Termie: a Chaos Lord in Terminator armour dropping in turn 1 with my termies and a Sorceror in Terminator armor. Will be sure that he buffs the termies on turn 1 rerrolling 1's but would not charge since the Sorcerer will cast Prescience and Warptime on the Termies. Also, quite pricy.
· A Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: could make the same that the termie one but with higher movility after the drop. A second Sorcerer could cast Diabolic Strength on him and crossing fingers he gets a cool Warlord trait in addition to 'I am Alpharius'
What do you guys think?
Cavalry, not infantry, won't receive Alpha Legion traits but will receive Daemon buffs.
Finally got my Forgeworld order: Jetbike for a converted chaos sorcerer on a bike and 6 units of Enforcers to use as 3x 10 man cultist units (bit expensive but I came into a bit of extra money recently).
I'm still unsure of what to really do with my NL cultists though: do I rush them forward to force -3Ld on units that my WE Berzerkers have hit or do I just leave them in my deployment to sit on objectives? This second option seems safer but also seems like a waste of a trait (especially when the bike sorcerer can't impose the -1Ld).
Possibly not what you want to do , but tide of Traitors is a great way to move blobs of cultists into the enemy deployment zone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Using enforcers as cultists is deliciously decadent.
Oh right yeah, with all the talk of cavalry I thought that bikes couldn't use traits as well.
I was thinking that maybe I could push forward with the cultists and then when the game is close to ending teleport them back into my deployment zone to grab an objective using that strategem.
And yes it is. I'm loving how they look so I'm definitely going to shelf my old cultists and the rather poorly converted renegade guard I have.
Rydria wrote: It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.
Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.
Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.
The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.
I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).
But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.
I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.
Rydria wrote: It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.
Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.
Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.
The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.
I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).
But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.
I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.
I think he meant the AL trait is situationally useless AGAINST short ranged armies. I play Khorne CSM, and against a Ravenguard army, I don't think the trait came up at all. The little shooting I had was all anti-tank, shooting at targets that dont have the trait anyways. Everything else was only attacking once within 12" or melee.
Rydria wrote: It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.
Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.
Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.
The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.
I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).
But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.
I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.
I think he meant the AL trait is situationally useless AGAINST short ranged armies. I play Khorne CSM, and against a Ravenguard army, I don't think the trait came up at all. The little shooting I had was all anti-tank, shooting at targets that dont have the trait anyways. Everything else was only attacking once within 12" or melee.
Ahhhh... I didn't think of that. It's a good point. Two of the opponents I'm likely to play against run Tau / Imperial Guard tanks / Ultramarines, so I pretty much assume lots of long range firepower flying across the board.
I may rethink the Emperors Children trait then, though Alpha does also have the single infiltrators strategem which seem potentially useful (if there's a unit that can make good use of it).
It's also made me realise that maybe the Iron Warriors one isn't as bad as people say. Giving the enemy no cover saves at all isn't the worst thing in the world.
Rydria wrote: It is on par with the alpha legion trait vs intended target i don't see people complaining about having no trait as alpha legion vs certain armies that do all there work within 12inches or in the assault phase.
Emperor's children is one of the strongest traits it gives you at worst infinite free counter offence. (Which costs 2cp) At best you're curbstomping assault armies because you will always hit first in subsequent rounds, it is why i give all the hellbrutes power scourges.
Well it's true that the Alpha Legion trait is less slightly useful on assault armies, but it still is useful especially on the first couple turns while you're moving your units up the board. -1 to hit means a lot more of them will make it into assault range in the first place. The only units that wont get any benefit are deepstrikers, but even then they would be safer from getting shot at from other enemy units that are further away, so they'd only be vulnerable to the enarby units (which are the ones they would be planning to assault anyway). So the trait is useful for all armies, for every turn of the game.
The emperors children trait is seems like it would only be useful for maybe one or two turns. Footslogging or transported troops wouldnt be in combat for the first turn or two anyway, so its useless for them then. If they charge (or are charged) on turn 2/3 the trait doesnt effect anything. So it's turn 3/4 that it starts really getting some use, for the surviving units. Maybe turn 4/5 too, if the game lasts that long and noone has fallen back or wiped out your squads.
But if you attack a weak unit, they're likely to fall back and have one of their assault units charge in (again negating the trait).
Or if you attack a strong unit, then you'll both get slaughtered, but you will get one extra turn of going first. Which is *great*, but it's only likely to happen for maybe 1 or 2 turns, for a couple of units that get the right conditions.
By which time you're on turn 4 or 5 so the game will be over.
I can see it being good in pure assault armies, that focus on lots of deepstriking assault units (or fast vehicles if they can get them into melee on turn 2).
But, and here's the downside... if you're emperors children, and taking Sonic Helbrutes and Noise Marines, then you wont have many points for these deeptriking / fast assault units. So it'll be wasted.
I'm still tempted to go with Empoerors Children, just so I get Noise Marine troops and the Sonic Brute. But I'd only have a couple of assault units to use as skirmishers, so I know I'd get only a bit of use from the trait.
I think he meant the AL trait is situationally useless AGAINST short ranged armies. I play Khorne CSM, and against a Ravenguard army, I don't think the trait came up at all. The little shooting I had was all anti-tank, shooting at targets that dont have the trait anyways. Everything else was only attacking once within 12" or melee.
Ahhhh... I didn't think of that. It's a good point. Two of the opponents I'm likely to play against run Tau / Imperial Guard tanks / Ultramarines, so I pretty much assume lots of long range firepower flying across the board.
I may rethink the Emperors Children trait then, though Alpha does also have the single infiltrators strategem which seem potentially useful (if there's a unit that can make good use of it).
It's also made me realise that maybe the Iron Warriors one isn't as bad as people say. Giving the enemy no cover saves at all isn't the worst thing in the world.
Another thing to consider with EC is their stratagem excessive violence or whatever the name is.
In combat when you remove a model get an extra attack. Between death to the false emperor, icon of excess, prescience, and the stratagem you can tear through even a big blob if conscripts of you have to in one round with some close combat units.
Another thing to consider with EC is their stratagem excessive violence or whatever the name is.
In combat when you remove a model get an extra attack. Between death to the false emperor, icon of excess, prescience, and the stratagem you can tear through even a big blob if conscripts of you have to in one round with some close combat units.
Isn't there a legion trait where everyone gets an extra attack in combat all the time? Basically making them have the old charge rules. I'm sure there was. Word Bearers maybe. I was tempted by them as well, but i'd have to have a few decent melee squads to make it worthwhile.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: World Eaters get an extra attack when they charge, but I believe it only lasts for the first round of combat.
Yeh thats the one. Does mean everyone gets +1 attack on the charge, vs the Excess one where you only get one attack as you die... both good, probably fairly equal, unless a unit gets two charges off in one game (which is very doable for some units).
Excess would be better if you got one attack as your die even from shooting attacks, like Noise Marines get anyway. But would be overpowered.
Wonder if it means melee noise marines get 2 attacks when they die?
So I saw that Bloat drones to be decent - just like I was thinking. At least Bloat drones as everything from DGatm except for typhus and drones is straightforward overpriced or just weak.
I would love to make DG themed army that is at least semi viable on table not just for looks. But at this rate it looks like it will be 2x outrider full of bloat drones and idk typhus/sorcerer ...
I really hope GW will realize that plague marines and poxwalkers are vastly overpriced and should be more like 16-17 and 4-5 respectively points value.
Not even mentioning Lord of Contagion that i wouldn't even take for 130 points, let alone consider his current 184 point cost. This guy is slow, his aura is useless , lacks any utility and actually isn't even strong CC except vs elite infantry and characters. But completely fails against hordes with 4 attacks and anything with T7/T8.
I would say ~~125 points for this dude ... then ... maybe. Still not sold on this as he lacks mobility/ranged weapons or useful aura like rerolling 1's.
Am I missing something or atm anything DG exclusive just won't work against other decent lists ?
Hopefully DG codex will change it. But I don't believe guys who initially price plague marine at 21 points ... with standard bolter and 1 cc attack.
Edit : Isn't it also super stupid to lock legion trait only to infantry/bikers/helbrutes but at same time make infantry weak and removing bikers completely. I thinik iconic as of now bloat drones should be counted as helbrutes for legion tactic !
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: World Eaters get an extra attack when they charge, but I believe it only lasts for the first round of combat.
Yeh thats the one. Does mean everyone gets +1 attack on the charge, vs the Excess one where you only get one attack as you die... both good, probably fairly equal, unless a unit gets two charges off in one game (which is very doable for some units).
Excess would be better if you got one attack as your die even from shooting attacks, like Noise Marines get anyway. But would be overpowered.
Wonder if it means melee noise marines get 2 attacks when they die?
The Excess of Violence is a stratagem and it isn't when you die it is when you kill something in the fight phase.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: World Eaters get an extra attack when they charge, but I believe it only lasts for the first round of combat.
Yeh thats the one. Does mean everyone gets +1 attack on the charge, vs the Excess one where you only get one attack as you die... both good, probably fairly equal, unless a unit gets two charges off in one game (which is very doable for some units).
Excess would be better if you got one attack as your die even from shooting attacks, like Noise Marines get anyway. But would be overpowered.
Wonder if it means melee noise marines get 2 attacks when they die?
The Excess of Violence is a stratagem and it isn't when you die it is when you kill something in the fight phase.
Sorry I was at work so was having to work from memory haha.
mario88826 wrote: So I saw that Bloat drones to be decent - just like I was thinking. At least Bloat drones as everything from DGatm except for typhus and drones is straightforward overpriced or just weak.
I would love to make DG themed army that is at least semi viable on table not just for looks. But at this rate it looks like it will be 2x outrider full of bloat drones and idk typhus/sorcerer ...
I really hope GW will realize that plague marines and poxwalkers are vastly overpriced and should be more like 16-17 and 4-5 respectively points value.
Not even mentioning Lord of Contagion that i wouldn't even take for 130 points, let alone consider his current 184 point cost. This guy is slow, his aura is useless , lacks any utility and actually isn't even strong CC except vs elite infantry and characters. But completely fails against hordes with 4 attacks and anything with T7/T8.
I would say ~~125 points for this dude ... then ... maybe. Still not sold on this as he lacks mobility/ranged weapons or useful aura like rerolling 1's.
Am I missing something or atm anything DG exclusive just won't work against other decent lists ?
Hopefully DG codex will change it. But I don't believe guys who initially price plague marine at 21 points ... with standard bolter and 1 cc attack.
Edit : Isn't it also super stupid to lock legion trait only to infantry/bikers/helbrutes but at same time make infantry weak and removing bikers completely. I thinik iconic as of now bloat drones should be counted as helbrutes for legion tactic !
Well, we're still waiting for the Death Guard codex; apparently it'll drop in the middle of September. We can only hope that they'll fix a lot of the problems DG units currently have, especially the Lord of Contagion. Right now, just take Typhus for the EXACT SAME AURAS/ABILITIES plus a bunch of extra ones, for 20 points less than the generic Lord of Contagion.
mario88826 wrote: So I saw that Bloat drones to be decent - just like I was thinking. At least Bloat drones as everything from DGatm except for typhus and drones is straightforward overpriced or just weak.
I would love to make DG themed army that is at least semi viable on table not just for looks. But at this rate it looks like it will be 2x outrider full of bloat drones and idk typhus/sorcerer ...
I really hope GW will realize that plague marines and poxwalkers are vastly overpriced and should be more like 16-17 and 4-5 respectively points value.
Not even mentioning Lord of Contagion that i wouldn't even take for 130 points, let alone consider his current 184 point cost. This guy is slow, his aura is useless , lacks any utility and actually isn't even strong CC except vs elite infantry and characters. But completely fails against hordes with 4 attacks and anything with T7/T8.
I would say ~~125 points for this dude ... then ... maybe. Still not sold on this as he lacks mobility/ranged weapons or useful aura like rerolling 1's.
Am I missing something or atm anything DG exclusive just won't work against other decent lists ?
Hopefully DG codex will change it. But I don't believe guys who initially price plague marine at 21 points ... with standard bolter and 1 cc attack.
Edit : Isn't it also super stupid to lock legion trait only to infantry/bikers/helbrutes but at same time make infantry weak and removing bikers completely. I thinik iconic as of now bloat drones should be counted as helbrutes for legion tactic !
Well, we're still waiting for the Death Guard codex; apparently it'll drop in the middle of September. We can only hope that they'll fix a lot of the problems DG units currently have, especially the Lord of Contagion. Right now, just take Typhus for the EXACT SAME AURAS/ABILITIES plus a bunch of extra ones, for 20 points less than the generic Lord of Contagion.
Why is this an issue? It makes sense to me, like he's just a more efficient Lord. Are you mad because you can't take two typhus and must pay 20pts for same abilities on a Lord? If so I remind you I would gladly pay 50 more pts for a changeling if I could take a second, he's unique for a reason. Or do you not want to take typhus and just run a Lord cause you dislike named dudes? If so just call him a Lord on crack everywhere but the entry list, people will roll with it.
If it's something else I'd really like to know, it just confuses me why it's such a problem.
mario88826 wrote: So I saw that Bloat drones to be decent - just like I was thinking. At least Bloat drones as everything from DGatm except for typhus and drones is straightforward overpriced or just weak.
I would love to make DG themed army that is at least semi viable on table not just for looks. But at this rate it looks like it will be 2x outrider full of bloat drones and idk typhus/sorcerer ...
I really hope GW will realize that plague marines and poxwalkers are vastly overpriced and should be more like 16-17 and 4-5 respectively points value.
Not even mentioning Lord of Contagion that i wouldn't even take for 130 points, let alone consider his current 184 point cost. This guy is slow, his aura is useless , lacks any utility and actually isn't even strong CC except vs elite infantry and characters. But completely fails against hordes with 4 attacks and anything with T7/T8.
I would say ~~125 points for this dude ... then ... maybe. Still not sold on this as he lacks mobility/ranged weapons or useful aura like rerolling 1's.
Am I missing something or atm anything DG exclusive just won't work against other decent lists ?
Hopefully DG codex will change it. But I don't believe guys who initially price plague marine at 21 points ... with standard bolter and 1 cc attack.
Edit : Isn't it also super stupid to lock legion trait only to infantry/bikers/helbrutes but at same time make infantry weak and removing bikers completely. I thinik iconic as of now bloat drones should be counted as helbrutes for legion tactic !
Well, we're still waiting for the Death Guard codex; apparently it'll drop in the middle of September. We can only hope that they'll fix a lot of the problems DG units currently have, especially the Lord of Contagion. Right now, just take Typhus for the EXACT SAME AURAS/ABILITIES plus a bunch of extra ones, for 20 points less than the generic Lord of Contagion.
Why is this an issue? It makes sense to me, like he's just a more efficient Lord. Are you mad because you can't take two typhus and must pay 20pts for same abilities on a Lord? If so I remind you I would gladly pay 50 more pts for a changeling if I could take a second, he's unique for a reason. Or do you not want to take typhus and just run a Lord cause you dislike named dudes? If so just call him a Lord on crack everywhere but the entry list, people will roll with it.
If it's something else I'd really like to know, it just confuses me why it's such a problem.
Sure thing - here is why this is problem. I like to have choices when making my army lists, it pains me when it's completed without even thinking much - because some alternatives are simply vastly superior compared to others.
I want to have some diversity and be able to field few different lists for my army - and while I know all too well they won't be always exactly equally strong - then at least differences shouldn't be too big.
Just like in real life - i like to have choices . Not take something from shop shelf because rest is trash ... Ye i know i ask for a lot. Sorry about that . Hopefully this will help you understand my approach.
Edit : Also it's not about typhus actually - if i want 2nd guy i will just take sorcerer or normal lord and slap nurgle mark - so this is okay. He costs ~~80 points less with termy armor - he is faster, got weapon costumiazation including ranged and got useful aura. Even fully kited with most expensive options he is still around ~~45 points less . So yeah not just typhus. This guy(lord of contagion) is obnoxiously weak point wise to anything you can think of - not only to Typhus. Just think about what you can get for 184 points.
But then ... this great Lord model
Arachnofiend wrote: The real problem is that Typhus has more abilities than the Lord of Contagion and still costs less for some reason.
It doesn't make any sense. He's obviously an upgraded LoC, why doesn't he cost more?
That is weird actually. They're identical, except Typhus has a Pistol and an extra buff and is a Psyker, but he is 20 points less.
I wonder if it is because they have the LoC's sword a points value of 45, when he is the only person to have it. Usually those kind of weapons are valued at 0, as the points of the unit is taken into account as a whole. That would make LoC 139 points, which is more like it. Relative to Typhus, at least.
Arachnofiend wrote: The real problem is that Typhus has more abilities than the Lord of Contagion and still costs less for some reason.
It doesn't make any sense. He's obviously an upgraded LoC, why doesn't he cost more?
No question is why LoC doesn't cost less. Take look at baseline Terminator Lord that Death Guard can take as lord with mark of nurgle and Death Guard keyword.
After taking most expensive possible equipement he is 146 points - and got chainfist and combi-melta . So not only less expensive but in fact is just better Lord - he has better aura , better mobility with 5M and advance is not halved. He got access to powerful ranged weapons like combi plasma/melta. Yeah LoC got whole 27% to get into meele after Teleport strike or he may as well end up doing NOTHING. While Terminator lord can shoot overheated plasma - since he can reroll 1's and melta and deal serious damage.
All this while he potentially buffs other terminators with juicy aura. Even if he fails charge he got nice aura and solid range weapon. On top of that 5 Movement and can advance normally. While LoC gets kited forever with his generous 4Movement average of extra 2 M from advancing - all this while not being able to shoot or provide rest of troops with anything useful. Yep and never forget - for way more points.
So basically this whole tax over normal marine for +1T and 5+ FNP is ridiculously high like extra 50% to cost on Plague Marines and Lord of Contagion. 21 points in DI book and 184 respectively. Yeah i know they dropped 2 points from Marines, but still need AT LEAST 2 less.
Arachnofiend wrote: The real problem is that Typhus has more abilities than the Lord of Contagion and still costs less for some reason.
It doesn't make any sense. He's obviously an upgraded LoC, why doesn't he cost more?
That is weird actually. They're identical, except Typhus has a Pistol and an extra buff and is a Psyker, but he is 20 points less.
I wonder if it is because they have the LoC's sword a points value of 45, when he is the only person to have it. Usually those kind of weapons are valued at 0, as the points of the unit is taken into account as a whole. That would make LoC 139 points, which is more like it. Relative to Typhus, at least.
You also forgot that it's more than you said. He is actually not just psyker but potent one to cast 2 powers - who can more ? Likes of Magnus. He also buff poxwalkers .
And thats not all he got better weapon - Manreaper with +3 S , rest is same.
But generally i agree ... i suppose he was to be priced at 139 points (still high imo) - but some smartass added cost in DI book but then listed him as "Does not include weapons".
Same story with Foetid Bloat drone - it was originally in DI Book priced at 206 points ... YEP 206 POINTS
So i hope new codex just won't have MASSIVE typos like that. What i'm afraid ... is that those were not typos but more like trying to make DI box equally good for both players. When in fact Space Marine player is rolling 350 or more points advantage LOL.
On a seperate topic, though not sure I'd get an answer here as its more Daemons related ...
I'm considering the Dameonic options available as a small addition to the army, and I'm wondering which is actually more useful gift to have -
Tzeentch's +1 to invulnverable save, giving a 4++
Nurgle's FNP, giving a 5+++ on top of a 5++
I would have thought it would be Nurgle, as you get two attempts, but this would be on a multi-wound daemon and I believe FNP is pretty bad with multi-damage weapons as you have to roll a 5+++ for every single *damage*, not just the wound.
Niiru wrote: On a seperate topic, though not sure I'd get an answer here as its more Daemons related ...
I'm considering the Dameonic options available as a small addition to the army, and I'm wondering which is actually more useful gift to have -
Tzeentch's +1 to invulnverable save, giving a 4++
Nurgle's FNP, giving a 5+++ on top of a 5++
I would have thought it would be Nurgle, as you get two attempts, but this would be on a multi-wound daemon and I believe FNP is pretty bad with multi-damage weapons as you have to roll a 5+++ for every single *damage*, not just the wound.
Is there some maths somewhere for this?
Disgustingly Resilient is a way to lessen the damage to larger targets on a failed save. Let's say you take 6 damage from a lucky Lascannon shot. On a Tzeentch Daemon, you do have a 4++ save, but if you fail that you take 6 damage. On a Nurgle Daemon, you would only take an average of 4 damage from that shot on a failed save because you would likely make a couple of the Disgustingly Resilient rolls. Of course you'll probably have to take more of those DR rolls because you've only got a 5++, but it's still pretty solid. I'm not sure one is objectively better than the other.
Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.
Niiru wrote: On a seperate topic, though not sure I'd get an answer here as its more Daemons related ...
I'm considering the Dameonic options available as a small addition to the army, and I'm wondering which is actually more useful gift to have -
Tzeentch's +1 to invulnverable save, giving a 4++
Nurgle's FNP, giving a 5+++ on top of a 5++
I would have thought it would be Nurgle, as you get two attempts, but this would be on a multi-wound daemon and I believe FNP is pretty bad with multi-damage weapons as you have to roll a 5+++ for every single *damage*, not just the wound.
Is there some maths somewhere for this?
5+ FNP is substantially better. For 2 reasons :
1. You can ignore mortal wounds actually, when invu save doesn't provide such luxury. That alone is enough , but also...
2. 5+ after 5+ in simple math reduces expected value of received damage by 55,5% against 50% of 4+ invu. Simple math.
It's also not really truth that mutli wound targets make FNP worse. In fact it's more consistent and reliable. When talking about statistics - the more chances you take the more result gets closer to "expected value". So as example I can show you simple example:
You got wounded on lets say 10 W model with attack that deals flat 6 damage . While 4+ invul give you 1/2 to take 6 take or take 0 damage - FNP works more reliable. To be wounded for exactly 6 damage you have to fail 6 4+ so it's (1/2) ^6 so around 1,5% if my math is not off.
So in fact it's not actually so reliable on luck ! That being said expected value of damage you receive is still same for both cases - invu and FNP.
Another worth mentioning fact in favour of FNP is that while many demons often don't have high normal saves - then still some like Daemon prince - rock 3+ saves that they may use along with FNP , when you can only save once using normal save or INVU, So in such case against low AP weapons invu is kinda wasted, when FNP still helps you mitigate more damage.
Hope that helps.
PS that doesn't justify THAT high DG point values i was speaking about. Though sure should increase - but not 50% ish percent ffs.
Edit : though last extra note - when you can have FNP or invu on low wound model - there actually invu works better. Because on lets say plague marine - it's hard to pass 5+ FNP 3 times (around 3,7% to do so ) vs 33,3% to pass single invu test. But then again if they shoot multi wound weapons on your 1 W models - then it's already somewhat victory for you . Also damn again proves that Plague Marine IS NOT more resilient than Primaris marine against multi wound hits.
Generally speaking FNP always change format of damage you take into mutliple separate wounds instead of big hits.
ZergSmasher wrote: Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.
I too would like some feedback on this, for the same reason. A dreadclaw can easily be made from a drop pod kit, which is much cheaper money wise than forgeworld (obviously).
Niiru wrote: On a seperate topic, though not sure I'd get an answer here as its more Daemons related ...
I'm considering the Dameonic options available as a small addition to the army, and I'm wondering which is actually more useful gift to have -
Tzeentch's +1 to invulnverable save, giving a 4++
Nurgle's FNP, giving a 5+++ on top of a 5++
I would have thought it would be Nurgle, as you get two attempts, but this would be on a multi-wound daemon and I believe FNP is pretty bad with multi-damage weapons as you have to roll a 5+++ for every single *damage*, not just the wound.
Is there some maths somewhere for this?
5+ FNP is substantially better. For 2 reasons :
1. You can ignore mortal wounds actually, when invu save doesn't provide such luxury. That alone is enough , but also...
2. 5+ after 5+ in simple math reduces expected value of received damage by 55,5% against 50% of 4+ invu. Simple math.
It's also not really truth that mutli wound targets make FNP worse. In fact it's more consistent and reliable. When talking about statistics - the more chances you take the more result gets closer to "expected value". So as example I can show you simple example:
You got wounded on lets say 10 W model with attack that deals flat 6 damage . While 4+ invul give you 1/2 to take 6 take or take 0 damage - FNP works more reliable. To be wounded for exactly 6 damage you have to fail 6 4+ so it's (1/2) ^6 so around 1,5% if my math is not off.
So in fact it's not actually so reliable on luck ! That being said expected value of damage you receive is still same for both cases - invu and FNP.
Another worth mentioning fact in favour of FNP is that while many demons often don't have high normal saves - then still some like Daemon prince - rock 3+ saves that they may use along with FNP , when you can only save once using normal save or INVU, So in such case against low AP weapons invu is kinda wasted, when FNP still helps you mitigate more damage.
Hope that helps.
PS that doesn't justify THAT high DG point values i was speaking about. Though sure should increase - but not 50% ish percent ffs.
Edit : though last extra note - when you can have FNP or invu on low wound model - there actually invu works better. Because on lets say plague marine - it's hard to pass 5+ FNP 3 times (around 3,7% to do so ) vs 33,3% to pass single invu test. But then again if they shoot multi wound weapons on your 1 W models - then it's already somewhat victory for you . Also damn again proves that Plague Marine IS NOT more resilient than Primaris marine against multi wound hits.
Generally speaking FNP always change format of damage you take into mutliple separate wounds instead of big hits.
The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5+ FNP with a -1 to be hit is better than 4++ with Changeling.
Isn't the only way to get a 5+ FNP with a -1 to hit the Alpha Legion trait? Which chaos spawn dont get access to anyway. And they can only get changeling buff if they are Tzeentch, and so it would have to be a choice between either 4++ with -1 to hit, or 5++/5+++ with no hit penalties.
Cephalobeard wrote: Scabby, the Nurgle Greater Daemon, gives -1 Aura to the Fight Phase.
Ahh, interesting. Though changeling is -1 aura at all times which is probably better. Worth remembering though, as I haven't yet made my choice of which daemonic god to worship
Slaneesh advantage seems to be speed, Tzeentch seems to be psychic powers + invulnerable save, nurgle seems to be just the FNP and khorne is... well, khorne.
Fight phase debuffs is worth significantly less than a shooting phase one. If you really need the damage mitigation that Scabby provides, then you're choosing the wrong targets for your Spawn to hit.
The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).
Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.
5+ FNP with a -1 to be hit is better than 4++ with Changeling.
Isn't the only way to get a 5+ FNP with a -1 to hit the Alpha Legion trait? Which chaos spawn dont get access to anyway. And they can only get changeling buff if they are Tzeentch, and so it would have to be a choice between either 4++ with -1 to hit, or 5++/5+++ with no hit penalties.
There's a Nurgle psychic power which gives a -1 to hit.
5+ FNP with a -1 to be hit is better than 4++ with Changeling.
Isn't the only way to get a 5+ FNP with a -1 to hit the Alpha Legion trait? Which chaos spawn dont get access to anyway. And they can only get changeling buff if they are Tzeentch, and so it would have to be a choice between either 4++ with -1 to hit, or 5++/5+++ with no hit penalties.
There's a Nurgle psychic power which gives a -1 to hit.
I would like to mention it's not always really possible or wise to stay in range of changeling. Changeling simply does not cover entire board , and you can't get more than 1. And nurgle great chaos spawn can go anywhere without needing someone to babysit it - while still being pretty damn hard to kill. Changeling seems like better to babysit gunlines rather than aggresive fast units like spawns who need to get fast to combat.
The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).
Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.
You're right actually, normal Spawn don't get the Allegience bonus, so no FNP for them, just the Giant Spawn. Normal Spawn also dont get legion traits, unfortunately. So the only buffs I could give them would be from a changeling (I'd never get scabiethrax, he's a hugely expensive lord of war and I dont generally use those haha).
Tzeentch is looking like a frontrunner at the moment, though slaneesh is also a close contender (expecially as it helps open up noise marines as troops)
The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).
Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.
You're right actually, normal Spawn don't get the Allegience bonus, so no FNP for them, just the Giant Spawn. Normal Spawn also dont get legion traits, unfortunately. So the only buffs I could give them would be from a changeling (I'd never get scabiethrax, he's a hugely expensive lord of war and I dont generally use those haha).
Tzeentch is looking like a frontrunner at the moment, though slaneesh is also a close contender (expecially as it helps open up noise marines as troops)
Though Great Chaos Spawn does benefit from mark .Huge advantage of tzeentch here is that you can use EXCELLENT model of mutalith vortex beast as it's not present in 40k and still use it in AOS - that is if you play it aswell. But then again creative painting can turn Mutalith into Nice slimy green monstrosity that fits into Nurgle fluff.
Honestly Chaos spawns are great units ... but when you realized that for 2 chaos spawn and 9 extra points you can get great chaos spawn . Well I know what i would do . And so for me Nurgle is winner.
The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).
Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.
You're right actually, normal Spawn don't get the Allegience bonus, so no FNP for them, just the Giant Spawn. Normal Spawn also dont get legion traits, unfortunately. So the only buffs I could give them would be from a changeling (I'd never get scabiethrax, he's a hugely expensive lord of war and I dont generally use those haha).
Tzeentch is looking like a frontrunner at the moment, though slaneesh is also a close contender (expecially as it helps open up noise marines as troops)
Though Great Chaos Spawn does benefit from mark .Huge advantage of tzeentch here is that you can use EXCELLENT model of mutalith vortex beast as it's not present in 40k and still use it in AOS - that is if you play it aswell. But then again creative painting can turn Mutalith into Nice slimy green monstrosity that fits into Nurgle fluff.
Honestly Chaos spawns are great units ... but when you realized that for 2 chaos spawn and 9 extra points you can get great chaos spawn . Well I know what i would do . And so for me Nurgle is winner.
That is a pretty cool model, though I do currently have a conversion idea for a giant spawn that I may use. I'll save that model link though, just in case
True that I could get a Giant Spawn for the price of two normal Spawns, I was actually tempting to run a "squad" of 4xChaos Spawn and 1 or 2 Giant Spawns, as I could get all of that for about 280 points which would be a pretty difficult blob of chaos for an enemy to ignore. Though maybe the normal Spawns are a bit of a waste in comparison, other than as deepstrike bubblewrap.
The models in question are Chaos Spawn and Giant Chaos Spawn, so they are both low toughness (T5, which is low for multiwound) and multiple wounds (4W and 10W). So I guess in this case you'd recommend the 5+++ FNP over the 4++ invulnerable?
5++ along with 5+ FNP is for sure better than 4++ invu. But 5+ FNP alone without invu ain't superior to 4++ invu save. What is strenght of nurgle demons is they can combine both invu and FNP. Particulary plaguebearers with numbers over 20 are extremelly hard to deal with.
-1 to hit in both CC and against ranged units , 4T , 5++ invu, 5+ FNP after. For just 7 points seems like good deal(though thier offensive abilites are gak).
Back to your question - idk about normal spawn if it benefits from mark. But on Great Chaos Spawn FNP sure is better than any other option - despite its relative low Toughness it's really hard to take down something with 10 wounds , 5+ invu , 5+ fnp on top of that and it heals itself .
5T may seem like low - but i disagree. This is enough to stop power fists and lascannons from wounding you on 2+. This alone makes it not much worse than T7 actually !!
And i suspect chaos spawn is better of with FNP too.
You're right actually, normal Spawn don't get the Allegience bonus, so no FNP for them, just the Giant Spawn. Normal Spawn also dont get legion traits, unfortunately. So the only buffs I could give them would be from a changeling (I'd never get scabiethrax, he's a hugely expensive lord of war and I dont generally use those haha).
Tzeentch is looking like a frontrunner at the moment, though slaneesh is also a close contender (expecially as it helps open up noise marines as troops)
Though Great Chaos Spawn does benefit from mark .Huge advantage of tzeentch here is that you can use EXCELLENT model of mutalith vortex beast as it's not present in 40k and still use it in AOS - that is if you play it aswell. But then again creative painting can turn Mutalith into Nice slimy green monstrosity that fits into Nurgle fluff.
Honestly Chaos spawns are great units ... but when you realized that for 2 chaos spawn and 9 extra points you can get great chaos spawn . Well I know what i would do . And so for me Nurgle is winner.
That is a pretty cool model, though I do currently have a conversion idea for a giant spawn that I may use. I'll save that model link though, just in case
True that I could get a Giant Spawn for the price of two normal Spawns, I was actually tempting to run a "squad" of 4xChaos Spawn and 1 or 2 Giant Spawns, as I could get all of that for about 280 points which would be a pretty difficult blob of chaos for an enemy to ignore. Though maybe the normal Spawns are a bit of a waste in comparison, other than as deepstrike bubblewrap.
Definitely would go with 4 giant spawn for 300 over a bunch of smaller spawn. Thats great target saturation, at least 2, if not more, should reach combat.
Can confirm 4-6 is the right amount for Giant Spawn. Makes it almost impossible to wipe them all.
I look forward to adding more to my current collection of 3 Vortex Beasts, but I believe my next venture is going to be converting Primaris Reivers into Alpha Legion Berzerkers.
You won't often run and charge Noise Marines. Berzerkers it could benefit from, but you'd more often prefer either dropping them from an Assault Claw or Infiltrating them with Alpha Legion.
Arachnofiend wrote:If you're running an Undivided chapter the zerkers can get a turn 1 charge with warptime, move->advance->move->advance.
That's assuming you pass the psychic test, though at least it can't be denied at that range. Might need to use a CP to reroll a dice if you're unlucky.
Cephalobeard wrote:Can confirm 4-6 is the right amount for Giant Spawn. Makes it almost impossible to wipe them all.
I look forward to adding more to my current collection of 3 Vortex Beasts, but I believe my next venture is going to be converting Primaris Reivers into Alpha Legion Berzerkers.
I tend to avoid spamming any particular units in my armies, because I find it boring to model and paint loads of identical things when I have other options! I would likely end up converting two Giant Spawn models, but I doubt I would do more than that. I was going to get a maulerfiend to go with them.
edit: tempting to get a slaughterbrute to run as a spined beast though edit2: hmm spined beast is very pricey. might just run it as another giant spawn - nothing says that spawns should all look the same haha
Arachnofiend wrote:If you're running an Undivided chapter the zerkers can get a turn 1 charge with warptime, move->advance->move->advance.
That's assuming you pass the psychic test, though at least it can't be denied at that range. Might need to use a CP to reroll a dice if you're unlucky.
Cephalobeard wrote:Can confirm 4-6 is the right amount for Giant Spawn. Makes it almost impossible to wipe them all.
I look forward to adding more to my current collection of 3 Vortex Beasts, but I believe my next venture is going to be converting Primaris Reivers into Alpha Legion Berzerkers.
I tend to avoid spamming any particular units in my armies, because I find it boring to model and paint loads of identical things when I have other options! I would likely end up converting two Giant Spawn models, but I doubt I would do more than that. I was going to get a maulerfiend to go with them.
edit: tempting to get a slaughterbrute to run as a spined beast though edit2: hmm spined beast is very pricey. might just run it as another giant spawn - nothing says that spawns should all look the same haha
Glad you think that way. I don't like spam myself too. Buying whatever is OP now is stupid. Make army that you like and that looks like army actually not just mess and spam.
Sure that is not going to win you many tournaments, but hey .
I dont like spamming the same MODEL for that reason, but since I love to convert, I dont mind spamming units that all look different. After reading these responses, I might add 2-3 to my current walker assualt list. Currently using a bloodslaughterer, maulerfiend, contemptor, and slaanesh dp in almost every list. I think a few cheap giant spawn will help with target saturation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Must be an AL character, doesn't matter the detachment.
Taking it to a RTT tomorrow, I'll report back on how they do.
Does "I Am Alpharius" Warlord trait jump to any character, or only those from the same detachment as the initial Warlord?
The rule says any ALPHA LEGION CHARACTER in your army.
It doesn't specify detachment, so it can be any character that has been given the <legion> keyword of <ALPHA LEGION>. So if you had a second detachment of alpha legion units, any characters in that would count to it as well. Also, if you made a second detachment of random daemons or whatever, but made the HQ an alpha legion character, then he would be a viable target too. Though he wouldn't receive the benefit of the legion trait.
Slightly convoluted, but RAW that's what would happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I dont like spamming the same MODEL for that reason, but since I love to convert, I dont mind spamming units that all look different. After reading these responses, I might add 2-3 to my current walker assualt list. Currently using a bloodslaughterer, maulerfiend, contemptor, and slaanesh dp in almost every list. I think a few cheap giant spawn will help with target saturation.
I agree with this, and I may end up doing 3 or 4 seperate conversions that look totally different but are all fielded as "Giant Spawn"
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: After looking at that vortex beast and its alternative set up (somekind of khorne thing i believe), I plan on 4, one for each god!
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: After looking at that vortex beast and its alternative set up (somekind of khorne thing i believe), I plan on 4, one for each god!
Good my heretic brother. Chaos got so much more to offer than loyalist scums, we are not so one dimensional more like quadruple dimensional
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: After looking at that vortex beast and its alternative set up (somekind of khorne thing i believe), I plan on 4, one for each god!
Are there any other notable daemon choices that would work well (perhaps with converted models) in a chaos mechanicum army?
Giant Spawn fitted for me as I had some cool plans for half-mech half-living flesh spawn (kind of like a maulerfiend that failed in its construction and became semi-formed mutated etc etc).
I'm considering seeker chariots, as they are kinda vehicles anyway so easily altered to be more mechanical.
Same thing with Burning Chariot models (herald or normal).
Herald on the flying disk of tzeentch could also be a good model, and would allow for a combo of herald on disc, a burning chariot, and changeling in a tzeentch based detachment.
Daemonettes I considered making using AdMech infiltrators with dual blades, however I could use those for berserkers instead maybe.
I dunno, lots of ideas. Anyone with some good ideas for me to try and focus my list I'd appreciate!
The khorne gun/chariot thing would probably work for a daemon-vehicle of somekind.
On another note, until daemon codex drops, what are some of our options (as CSM players) for a small detachment of daemons to fit in some buffing units (heralds/changeling, etc) while keeping our army battle forged. As of yet, I have almost no experience using daemons.
ZergSmasher wrote: Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.
I too would like some feedback on this, for the same reason. A dreadclaw can easily be made from a drop pod kit, which is much cheaper money wise than forgeworld (obviously).
I have found Dreadclaws to be an outstanding Plasma Chosen delivery system. Endless Cacaphony them and ensure re-rolls on 1's and you've deleted all but the most robust of targets. If you are running them like this, you don't need Warptime on the squad - instead, the Dreadclaw's highly unusual aura attack makes it a very interesting candidate instead. Especially to rendezvous with Nurgle Raptors, making those Morale losses mount up!
I considered using them to drop Helbrutes... but. But. On arrival, your brutes are unlikely to charge, and won't be in heavy Flamer range. So what are they doing for all those points, popping off a multi-melta shot? And the transport costs more then them, so you could have just ran two of them at the enemy instead.
A Contemptor? Now, that's con-tempting.
Berzerkers would be interesting but I'd like to drop in at least two Squads, maybe three, to be sure of actually making the long shot charge.
If you're playing a Narrative game, Possessed and a bunch of Characters make a decent Daemon factory. If you're doing Word Bearers, this is the time to sit up and take a sip of coffee because you're suddenly the most terrifying force in the game, bringing in Be'lakor or thirty Plaguebearers without difficulty.
On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.
whembly wrote: Does anyone have experience playing Obliterator units? Are they effective enough?
I've found them to be so effective that they quickly become a distraction carnifex. In Cities of Death they are incredible; drop them on a tall building and nuke a unit every turn with Death In The Streets until someone finds enough dakka to get through their now formidable save.
---
Now, I've got a game next week, with everyone planning to bring at least 120 power. It'll be three players, with a square table divided into six DZ's, with each player placing two objectives. Death From The Skies, if there's a few Flyers. We might go Maelstrom, it seems to be a lot of fun; if not, we'll drop a seventh objective in the middle of the table to spice things up. I've drafted a couple of 120 lists, and I'll bring a bunch of Flesh Hounds and Plaguebearers to Summon if it ends up more than that. Here's the plans:
Spoiler:
BATTALION - 23
Dark Apostle: Power Maul, Bolt Pistol
Sorcerer: Force Sword, Bolt Pistol, PRESCIENCE, DEATH HEX
20 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
SPEARHEAD - 35
Chaos Lord: Combi-Melta, Power Fist
10 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers, Combi Plasma, Icon of Excess
10 Havocs: 4 Plasma Gun, Combi Plasma, Power Axe, Icon of Excess
3 Obliterators
OUTRIDERS - 32
Daemon Prince with Wings, Sword, WARPTIME
Dreadclaw
5 Raptors: 2 Melta, Combi Melta, Power Fist, Icon of Despair
5 Warp Talons
There WILL be Genestealer blobs. Hell Talon neuters them. There WILL be a Stormfang. Hell Blade helps tame that, hopefully fly up its backside. There WILL be Wolf Guard Terminators and Njal, Sorcerer helps with DTW coverage & encourages them to take their Storm Shields to the Tyranids instead.
Lord hangs with the Sorcerer and long range Havocs on Home objective. Dreadclaw drops Plasma Gunners on an objective, Daemon Prince will rendezvous with them and try to Warptime the Dreadclaw into the middle of some nice targets - or the Warp Talons on some nasty gunners who need Overwatch denial. Dark Apostle leads an infantry horde at another Objective, with the big front wave getting recycled for 2CP to maybe have a crack at a backfield objective - perhaps with Obliterators, Raptors, and Heldrake if they aren't needed elsewhere.
Alternatively, and netting three more CPs for those lovely Endless Cacophonies:
Spoiler:
WORD BEARERS BRIGADE - 120
HQ - 25
Daemon Prince with Wings, Sword, VOICE OF LORGAR
Dark Apostle: CURSED CROZIUS, Bolt Pistol
Sorcerer: Force Sword, Bolt Pistol
Chaos Lord: Combi-Melta, Power Fist
ELITES - 25
10 Chosen: Combi Plasma, 5 Plasma, Power Axe, Icon of Excess
Helbrute: two Fists, two Heavy Flamer
Helbrute: twin Lascannnon, fist, combi-Bolter
FAST ATTACK - 25
Dreadclaw
5 Raptors: 2 Melta, Combi Melta, Power Fist, Icon of Despair
5 Warp Talons
HEAVY SUPPORT - 24
5 Havocs: 4 Missile Launchers, Combi Melta
5 Havocs: 4 Autocannon, Combi Plasma
3 Obliterators
Stormfang is denied stuff to Dogfight at preposterous range. Dark Apostle gets a Zangiefbrute to knock heads or torch Genestealers. Dreadclaw squad gets a big upgrade for a low price. The other Havocs get twice as many guns - and a Lasbrute to really scarecrow Termies. Fire Frenzy with Lord and maybe Prescience will HURT. Likewise if Genestealers get themselves within 8" of Flamebrute.
I might make the DA have VOL. He's more likely to find himself fall behind. But then, he's also a lot easier to kill if he leads near the front, and we don't want a dead Warlord.
Good points about the Dreadclaw, thanks very much for that! I'm considering getting myself some Noise Marines and I have some Plasma Chosen, so maybe it's time to make myself a Dreadclaw to drop them in.
I'm going to be playing in an ITC event next weekend, so I'm interested in some feedback on this CSM list. I feel like it's solid, but I'd be interested in some feedback or suggestions to make it better.
So i just re-read the daemonic ritual stuff in the astartes codex, and am I right to say that the ritual is voluntary? And, if this is the case, does that include all Daemons, not just the ones in the astartes codex? For fluff reasons I like the idea of having some random daemon units running around with my astartes, but being a EC player its simply not worth running daemonnetes over NM, and i do like the look of some of the other slaaneshi/neutral daemons. Would i be able to run them all in the same detachment without losing EC bonuses as well?
thundertau wrote: So i just re-read the daemonic ritual stuff in the astartes codex, and am I right to say that the ritual is voluntary? And, if this is the case, does that include all Daemons, not just the ones in the astartes codex? For fluff reasons I like the idea of having some random daemon units running around with my astartes, but being a EC player its simply not worth running daemonnetes over NM, and i do like the look of some of the other slaaneshi/neutral daemons. Would i be able to run them all in the same detachment without losing EC bonuses as well?
Voluntary? Not sure what you mean... if you mean can you choose whether or not to try and summon some daemons, then yes you can. You can only summon if you don't move at all that turn (with that character), so seems obvious that you can choose not to summon... or all characters would be stationary for the whole game!
You can summon any daemon with the "daemonic ritual" ability. You dont need that ability to do the summoning, you just need to be a <CHAOS> <CHARACTER>, but in order to BE summoned, you need the ability. That includes most daemons from the daemons codex, but not things like maulerfiends.
As far as daemonettes vs noise marines... I dunno. They do different jobs.
And about losing legion traits, thats an interesting one.
sically, if you start the game with daemons on the table in your EC detachment, then you lose traits for everyone.
BUT
If you start with just a pool of reserve points, and no daemons on the table, then your marines get their traits. And then you can summon stuff during the game and the trait remains unaffected. Daemons dont get access to the trait though of course.
thundertau wrote: So i just re-read the daemonic ritual stuff in the astartes codex, and am I right to say that the ritual is voluntary? And, if this is the case, does that include all Daemons, not just the ones in the astartes codex? For fluff reasons I like the idea of having some random daemon units running around with my astartes, but being a EC player its simply not worth running daemonnetes over NM, and i do like the look of some of the other slaaneshi/neutral daemons. Would i be able to run them all in the same detachment without losing EC bonuses as well?
Voluntary? Not sure what you mean... if you mean can you choose whether or not to try and summon some daemons, then yes you can. You can only summon if you don't move at all that turn (with that character), so seems obvious that you can choose not to summon... or all characters would be stationary for the whole game!
You can summon any daemon with the "daemonic ritual" ability. You dont need that ability to do the summoning, you just need to be a <CHAOS> <CHARACTER>, but in order to BE summoned, you need the ability. That includes most daemons from the daemons codex, but not things like maulerfiends.
As far as daemonettes vs noise marines... I dunno. They do different jobs.
And about losing legion traits, thats an interesting one.
sically, if you start the game with daemons on the table in your EC detachment, then you lose traits for everyone.
BUT
If you start with just a pool of reserve points, and no daemons on the table, then your marines get their traits. And then you can summon stuff during the game and the trait remains unaffected. Daemons dont get access to the trait though of course.
by voluntary i meant weather we can start on the field or reserve, as when I last played (4th edition) they always started in reserve, still adjusting to RAW. but, your last answer seems to answer that anyway, and is interesting. I could see a few tricks here, I'm already thinking of a basic lord sitting with my NM and sonic hellbrutes just for the reroll, could use him to summon things without disrupting the flow of the force, or just have him in a detachment with daemons to not worry about losing out on traits.
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Traits only effect infantry and bikers and helbrutes, so tanks don't get the -1 to hit anyway. So your second list doesnt have any advantages over the first (as the beserkers will only get the trait when they leave the transport, and that will be within 12" of the enemy so the trait wouldn't matter anyway).
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Traits only effect infantry and bikers and helbrutes, so tanks don't get the -1 to hit anyway. So your second list doesnt have any advantages over the first (as the beserkers will only get the trait when they leave the transport, and that will be within 12" of the enemy so the trait wouldn't matter anyway).
Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 180pts]: Malefic talon
. Tzeentch: Diabolic Strength
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [8 PL, 167pts]: Combi-plasma, Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch [8 PL, 139pts]: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Prescience, Warptime
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle in a Rhino with Berzerkers, another Rhino right behind with 10 Berzerkers as backup. Disc Sorcerer slingshots the first Rhino up with Warptime and hopefully the first Rhino squad can get a charge off by turn 2, followed by the second Rhino squad in turn 3. Exalted Champion with the Murder Sword to go character hunting, especially useful against armies that are reliant on a specific character as a lynchpin to their army. Being a WE means he gets an extra attack and with Diabolic Strength and the +1 attack Warlord trait, he can reasonably get off enough attacks to kill a 6 wound character in a single round of fighting just from successful hits, especially considering he hits on a 2+ and can reroll failed hits near a Dark Apostle.
Terminators and Terminator Sorcerer deep strike in turn 2, Terminator Sorcerer casts Delightful Agonies and Warptime on the Terrminators while the Disc Sorcerer casts Prescience on them. Activate Endless Cacophony and pretty much anything the Terminators shoot at is dead, followed by a near guaranteed charge due to closing the distance with Warptime. Icon of Excess + Prescience means DTTFE activates on a 4+ and along with the Daemon Prince hopefully nearby, they'll be attacking with Power Fists on 3+ rerolling 1's with 4's generating an extra attack. CSM are off securing objectives while the Berzerker blob hunts around for enemies. Only thing I don't like about this list is that the Rhinos are going to be very vulnerable while they're going up the table so I'll need to be smart with maneuvering them.
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 76pts]: Bolt pistol, Mark of Khorne, Power maul
Exalted Champion [5 PL, 81pts]: Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power sword, The Murder Sword
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Marine w/ Boltgun, Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators [14 PL, 300pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
. Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power fist
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 157pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 191pts]: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 9x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 9x Chainaxe
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne
Same units and strategy as the previous list, except the whole army is Alpha Legion for that sweet -1 to hit trait, at least giving the Rhinos some level of protection as they go up the board at the cost of 2 CP and less effective Berzerkers compared to WE Berzerkers.
Comparing the two lists, is it worth it to have better Berzerkers and +2 CP but more vulnerable Rhinos or -1 to hit Rhinos (plus the whole army to boot) but lose out on 2 CP and having slightly less effective Berzerkers?
Traits only effect infantry and bikers and helbrutes, so tanks don't get the -1 to hit anyway. So your second list doesnt have any advantages over the first (as the beserkers will only get the trait when they leave the transport, and that will be within 12" of the enemy so the trait wouldn't matter anyway).
Good to know! So the WE + AL list is just objectively better then? How is it otherwise? Also, has anyone had any success with the Murder Sword? It seems like a fun relic that might just be only good on paper and not so much on practice, if that's the case I might just go with Intoxicating Elixir on a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince. I'm also considering switch the Supreme Command Detachment from AL into Renegades since I'm not sure how much they'll actually be taking advantage of the -1 to hit when they'll likely be stuck in CC or short range ideally. Thoughts?
Lord of skulls is better than renegade knight. More hp, fights better, has infernal regen, and can be from the same legion as your army, so it can benefit from aura buffs, strategems, plus it can have spells cast on it too. A Lord of skulls warptimed into a first turn charge can be very scary indeed.
The same LOS that gets demonforge strategem used on it hits like a truck in that phase. (Not that it doesn't already hit like a truck, but imagine getting rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound during your LOS shooting phase. lol)
I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.
Adding daemons to a CSM detachment to bring it up to a brigade will mean all CSM units in the detachment will lose their legion trait. Might be worth it to you though, it would depend on how useful your trait is to your particular army list.
Also the Word Bearers trait is a reroll to morale tests, I'm guessing you're talking about the 1CP strategem.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.
Adding daemons to a CSM detachment to bring it up to a brigade will mean all CSM units in the detachment will lose their legion trait. Might be worth it to you though, it would depend on how useful your trait is to your particular army list.
Also the Word Bearers trait is a reroll to morale tests, I'm guessing you're talking about the 1CP strategem.
No, it's the morale re-rolls I'm talking about. The stratagem is incredible outside of matched play, but that's not a problem. I'm finding that access to deployed Daemons is more powerful than rerolling morale. Hell, give me access to Alpha Legion and Night Lords stratagems in a multi legion detachment.
New question: are land raiders worth the cost over a las Predator? The notion that everything has assault vehicle is absolutely false - the fact that they can't move and then kick out the inhabitants, and have lost 2" from max move, seems to make them a liability for a Terminator attack. Only advantage over teleporting is ability to drive through a DS screen.
Rhinos seem to be decent, but raiders... I'm just not seeing their use. Could take twice the firepower in Havocs or Predators for the same price.
lindsay40k wrote: I've been musing over my Word Bearers, and I'm really struggling to see how their Trait is much better than adding a few Daemons to detachments. A re-rollable die has an average result around 4.1; sure, it may mean sometimes not having to choose between a weapon specialist or an icon bearer, and it's decent when you roll a one, but is that really much better than having a bunch of Nurglings screen deep strikers and claim objectives on turn zero? Having a handful of Fiends able to lock a horde in combat with zerks? And all the rest? Especially if you're trying to fill a Brigade, it feels like adding some specialist Daemon units will add more to the army.
Adding daemons to a CSM detachment to bring it up to a brigade will mean all CSM units in the detachment will lose their legion trait. Might be worth it to you though, it would depend on how useful your trait is to your particular army list.
Also the Word Bearers trait is a reroll to morale tests, I'm guessing you're talking about the 1CP strategem.
No, it's the morale re-rolls I'm talking about. The stratagem is incredible outside of matched play, but that's not a problem. I'm finding that access to deployed Daemons is more powerful than rerolling morale. Hell, give me access to Alpha Legion and Night Lords stratagems in a multi legion detachment.
New question: are land raiders worth the cost over a las Predator? The notion that everything has assault vehicle is absolutely false - the fact that they can't move and then kick out the inhabitants, and have lost 2" from max move, seems to make them a liability for a Terminator attack. Only advantage over teleporting is ability to drive through a DS screen.
Rhinos seem to be decent, but raiders... I'm just not seeing their use. Could take twice the firepower in Havocs or Predators for the same price.
Ahh I see, sorry I was reading your question with the word bearers ability to summon daemons more easily in mind. Re-rolling morale isn't the best of traits no, but then there will be the few occasions where you roll badly and really wish you could! But then, you have CP's for that. I would say using daemons to build up your detachment into a brigade, and so get +9 CPs instead of +3 CPs, would be far more worthwhile than the legion trait. That's 6 morale rerolls right there, or you could use them on anything else you want. It's like buying someone a gift card for their birthday, when you could give them real money that can be spent anywhere!
I dunno about land raiders... they are expensive but they are damn hard to kill. However you're paying for their ability to deliver elite troops safely anywhere on the battlefield. If you're not actually using their transport ability, then you're much better off buying something else.
Kubi258 wrote: Are renegade knights any good now and if yes which one ? Or is it better to take something like LoS or scorpion ?
had a game last night and rocking two repeater battle cannons proved rather good!
gatling cannon one is prob the best loadout.
issues to be aware of are thinking they are tough because they have 24 wounds. They can die in one round of shooting easily, for example my opponent put 14 wounds on one of mine from a single round of shooting from a ravager!
Its all about knowing the weapon ranges and using their 12" move wisely, basically dont go in gunho unless you know the enemy cant respond well.
ZergSmasher wrote: Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.
I too would like some feedback on this, for the same reason. A dreadclaw can easily be made from a drop pod kit, which is much cheaper money wise than forgeworld (obviously).
I have found Dreadclaws to be an outstanding Plasma Chosen delivery system. Endless Cacaphony them and ensure re-rolls on 1's and you've deleted all but the most robust of targets. If you are running them like this, you don't need Warptime on the squad - instead, the Dreadclaw's highly unusual aura attack makes it a very interesting candidate instead. Especially to rendezvous with Nurgle Raptors, making those Morale losses mount up!
I considered using them to drop Helbrutes... but. But. On arrival, your brutes are unlikely to charge, and won't be in heavy Flamer range. So what are they doing for all those points, popping off a multi-melta shot? And the transport costs more then them, so you could have just ran two of them at the enemy instead.
A Contemptor? Now, that's con-tempting.
Berzerkers would be interesting but I'd like to drop in at least two Squads, maybe three, to be sure of actually making the long shot charge.
If you're playing a Narrative game, Possessed and a bunch of Characters make a decent Daemon factory. If you're doing Word Bearers, this is the time to sit up and take a sip of coffee because you're suddenly the most terrifying force in the game, bringing in Be'lakor or thirty Plaguebearers without difficulty.
On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.
Dreadclaws are interesting but Kharybdis Assault Claw is a completely different vehicle. It's excellent as a vehicle killer, and this fact is often overlooked.
The KAC has 16 wounds compared to 10 on the Dreadclaw and both units move 15 inches. That mobility is not diminished by taking wounds.
Both units have abilities that make them beasts. For each model they kill in a turn, the unit gets to regenerate wounds on a 5+ for each model killed. It's explosion does D3 mortal wounds and D6 against psykers.
Unlike the Dreadclaw, the KAC has a special attack it gets on the charge against vehicles / monsters / titanic units. This attack is S 16 & does 2D6 damage at -5 AP. On subsequent turns, it does 8 S9 AP -2 2 D attacks. You get this plus the added transport capacity for about half the cost of a second Dreadclaw, which I think is worth it.
A lot of people look at the KAC as a delivery system for Khorne Berzerkers, but dropping assault units is not the optimal way to play it. I used it this way for a while, but opponents quickly learned how to counter by strategically placing units so the KAC can never land near anything interesting.
What I do instead is drop 2 squads of Noise Marines, a Sorcerer and an Exalted Champion. The Sorcerer casts Warptime on the KAC, allowing it to get into position to charge things like Wraithknights, Land Raiders, and Carniflexes. The Noise Marines proceed to mow down a couple squads with sonic weapons while rerolling all failed wounds because of the EC. The 24 inch range of the sonic blasters can be huge depending on where you put them, I always try to land in the center of the board to cover as much space as possible.
The NM drop is a brutal alpha strike where dying units have a lot of synergy. Between the NM's MotA and the KAC's explosion, you can do a lot of damage to an opponent. It gets to the point where you are almost waiting for your NMs to die so they can score a warlord kill or put some wounds on a bigger threat. The other thing about the KAC is it becomes a charge magnet, opponents like to keep it in combat to keep it from eating more vehicles. On the times it does explode, it is usually completely surrounded by multiple units.
Uh, the Exalted Champion's re-roll aura only works in the Fight phase. It won't affect your sonic weapons outside of the case of your Noise Marines dying in combat and firing their blasters. I think you might owe your opponents an apology.
I believe the exalted champions reroll to wound aura only worjs in melee, could be wrong though. Still like the idea of dropping in NM, just need to replace the EC with a Lord or something.
ZergSmasher wrote: Switching gears, I know that the Kharybdis is a pretty solid delivery system for Chaos units, but what about the Dreadclaw? Unlike the Kharybdis I can easily make a Dreadclaw out of a standard Drop Pod kit, so I was wondering if it's worth it to bring one of these things. My first impression is that it's a little expensive for what it does, but at the same time it can bring in a 10-man squad of Berzerkers and give them a decent chance of making a charge if they have an Icon of Wrath (practically mandatory on Berzerkers). Plus, if I'm not mistaken it can carry a Helbrute instead of a squad, so there's that.
I too would like some feedback on this, for the same reason. A dreadclaw can easily be made from a drop pod kit, which is much cheaper money wise than forgeworld (obviously).
I have found Dreadclaws to be an outstanding Plasma Chosen delivery system. Endless Cacaphony them and ensure re-rolls on 1's and you've deleted all but the most robust of targets. If you are running them like this, you don't need Warptime on the squad - instead, the Dreadclaw's highly unusual aura attack makes it a very interesting candidate instead. Especially to rendezvous with Nurgle Raptors, making those Morale losses mount up!
I considered using them to drop Helbrutes... but. But. On arrival, your brutes are unlikely to charge, and won't be in heavy Flamer range. So what are they doing for all those points, popping off a multi-melta shot? And the transport costs more then them, so you could have just ran two of them at the enemy instead.
A Contemptor? Now, that's con-tempting.
Berzerkers would be interesting but I'd like to drop in at least two Squads, maybe three, to be sure of actually making the long shot charge.
If you're playing a Narrative game, Possessed and a bunch of Characters make a decent Daemon factory. If you're doing Word Bearers, this is the time to sit up and take a sip of coffee because you're suddenly the most terrifying force in the game, bringing in Be'lakor or thirty Plaguebearers without difficulty.
On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.
Dreadclaws are interesting but Kharybdis Assault Claw is a completely different vehicle. It's excellent as a vehicle killer, and this fact is often overlooked.
The KAC has 16 wounds compared to 10 on the Dreadclaw and both units move 15 inches. That mobility is not diminished by taking wounds.
Both units have abilities that make them beasts. For each model they kill in a turn, the unit gets to regenerate wounds on a 5+ for each model killed. It's explosion does D3 mortal wounds and D6 against psykers.
Unlike the Dreadclaw, the KAC has a special attack it gets on the charge against vehicles / monsters / titanic units. This attack is S 16 & does 2D6 damage at -5 AP. On subsequent turns, it does 8 S9 AP -2 2 D attacks. You get this plus the added transport capacity for about half the cost of a second Dreadclaw, which I think is worth it.
A lot of people look at the KAC as a delivery system for Khorne Berzerkers, but dropping assault units is not the optimal way to play it. I used it this way for a while, but opponents quickly learned how to counter by strategically placing units so the KAC can never land near anything interesting.
What I do instead is drop 2 squads of Noise Marines, a Sorcerer and an Exalted Champion. The Sorcerer casts Warptime on the KAC, allowing it to get into position to charge things like Wraithknights, Land Raiders, and Carniflexes. The Noise Marines proceed to mow down a couple squads with sonic weapons while rerolling all failed wounds because of the EC. The 24 inch range of the sonic blasters can be huge depending on where you put them, I always try to land in the center of the board to cover as much space as possible.
The NM drop is a brutal alpha strike where dying units have a lot of synergy. Between the NM's MotA and the KAC's explosion, you can do a lot of damage to an opponent. It gets to the point where you are almost waiting for your NMs to die so they can score a warlord kill or put some wounds on a bigger threat. The other thing about the KAC is it becomes a charge magnet, opponents like to keep it in combat to keep it from eating more vehicles. On the times it does explode, it is usually completely surrounded by multiple units.
What's funny is you make a pretty good case why the KAC is a better option than a heldrake to fulfill a similar purpose plus transport. I think the thing that puts people off (besides the price, both real and in game) is its rule that affects allied units nearby in combat. It shouldn't though.
Yeah, as metagames' screening protocols respond to Warptimed Berzerkers and Endless Cacophonies of Plasma, Kharybdis becomes a whole new threat. Auto hitting with its aura attack which can't be denied by 1", plus the ability to eat its way back to recovery, are remarkable and very difficult to deal with.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, as metagames' screening protocols respond to Warptimed Berzerkers and Endless Cacophonies of Plasma, Kharybdis becomes a whole new threat. Auto hitting with its aura attack which can't be denied by 1", plus the ability to eat its way back to recovery, are remarkable and very difficult to deal with.
Hah, say that last first sentence to the next person you see. We are so weird. Good for us.
I think I asked this before but not sure an answer ever really came out of it...
What do people think of the Hellwright / Hellwright+Dark Abeyance?
They're pretty pricey, like pretty much daemon prince territory, are they worth it?
They give +1 attacks to hellforged vehicles, which is pretty not great as you're only likely to have maybe 1 or 2 even in a mech heavy list, and even then they aren't likely to be charging into combat that much unless you go for dual-CCW contemptors. Even then, a Lord or Prince letting you reroll hits would probably be about as useful as one extra attack.
The healing is ok, but you can get that for cheaper from a warpsmith.
So it's just it's stats and wargear, vs a Lord or a Prince.
Basically I'm asking because if the hellwright isn't that great, I might convert a Hellwright-Prince.
How reliable are people find pyschic powers to be in general? How often do they get denied and how many powers to do you tend to use? So far the only time I have used them.in game has been diabolic strength on a slaanesh dp and I have yet to not get it off. (Only played 3 games in 8th so far though.)
@cephalobeard: congratulations. You did Chaos proud! How do you think the NL trait (if your army was build around it) would have done based on the lists you were up against/saw?
Arachnofiend wrote: Uh, the Exalted Champion's re-roll aura only works in the Fight phase. It won't affect your sonic weapons outside of the case of your Noise Marines dying in combat and firing their blasters. I think you might owe your opponents an apology.
Thank you for pointing that out. Honestly, I am still working on my 8th edition lists, and the EC is a new recruit. He's not known for his honesty and deliberately makes up new rules for himself. Often, I am on the hook for the deception.
: )
Don't miss the greater point. A KAC with shooty occupants is superior to one with choppy occupants. If you drop it in the middle of the table, the 24 inch radius on sonic weapons covers a most of your opponent's deployment zone. Think about that compared to having to make 9 inch charges with multiple units. Once opponents figure out the Berzerker trick, all you are going to be charging is Conscripts / Scouts / Hormagaunts / Guardians / Grots. A massed firing point is going to be a huge distraction, leaving you free to bring up a couple Rhinos filled with Berzerkers for a second turn charge.
Also, it's a lot easier casting Warptime on the KAC than trying to come up with enough Sorcerers to cover multiple units. With Warptime, the KAC can reliably charge anything in 20 inches and early game that's just about anything on the table. It's on a large aerial base and, with proper positioning, it's going to tie up multiple units. In one game, I used it to charge 3 Razorbacks one turn, which completely ruined my opponent's game plan. As long as you watch out for force / power weapons, the KAC can sit on a big chunk of your opponent's army as long as it wants.
Finally, about the Melta Cutters (the weapon you don't get with the Dreadclaw): the rules read as follows: "Normal attacks may not be made using this profile, instead if the Kharybdis successfully charges a model with the VEHICLE, MONSTER or TITANIC keywords, the controlling player may choose to forfeit all of it's standard attacks to make a single attack with this profile that hits it's target on a 2+."
Notice the rules do not say the attacks need to be directed towards the vehicle. RAW you have the best Character killer in the game, so long as it's within 8 inches of a vehicle. Next time you play against Guilliman and he's standing behind a Rhino, multicharge both for a quick warlord kill with a S 16 weapon that hits on a 2+ doing 2D6 wounds.
So yeah, world of difference between the KAC and a Dreadclaw. Not sure there's a reason to ever take a Dreadclaw.
Arachnofiend wrote: Uh, the Exalted Champion's re-roll aura only works in the Fight phase. It won't affect your sonic weapons outside of the case of your Noise Marines dying in combat and firing their blasters. I think you might owe your opponents an apology.
Thank you for pointing that out. Honestly, I am still working on my 8th edition lists, and the EC is a new recruit. He's not known for his honesty and deliberately makes up new rules for himself. Often, I am on the hook for the deception.
: )
Don't miss the greater point. A KAC with shooty occupants is superior to one with choppy occupants. If you drop it in the middle of the table, the 24 inch radius on sonic weapons covers a most of your opponent's deployment zone. Think about that compared to having to make 9 inch charges with multiple units. Once opponents figure out the Berzerker trick, all you are going to be charging is Conscripts / Scouts / Hormagaunts / Guardians / Grots. A massed firing point is going to be a huge distraction, leaving you free to bring up a couple Rhinos filled with Berzerkers for a second turn charge.
Also, it's a lot easier casting Warptime on the KAC than trying to come up with enough Sorcerers to cover multiple units. With Warptime, the KAC can reliably charge anything in 20 inches and early game that's just about anything on the table. It's on a large aerial base and, with proper positioning, it's going to tie up multiple units. In one game, I used it to charge 3 Razorbacks one turn, which completely ruined my opponent's game plan. As long as you watch out for force / power weapons, the KAC can sit on a big chunk of your opponent's army as long as it wants.
Finally, about the Melta Cutters (the weapon you don't get with the Dreadclaw): the rules read as follows: "Normal attacks may not be made using this profile, instead if the Kharybdis successfully charges a model with the VEHICLE, MONSTER or TITANIC keywords, the controlling player may choose to forfeit all of it's standard attacks to make a single attack with this profile that hits it's target on a 2+."
Notice the rules do not say the attacks need to be directed towards the vehicle. RAW you have the best Character killer in the game, so long as it's within 8 inches of a vehicle. Next time you play against Guilliman and he's standing behind a Rhino, multicharge both for a quick warlord kill with a S 16 weapon that hits on a 2+ doing 2D6 wounds.
So yeah, world of difference between the KAC and a Dreadclaw. Not sure there's a reason to ever take a Dreadclaw.
...Well, that's positively devious. Between that and the EC shenanigans, maybe you should go alpha legion instead!
Pretty sure that's not how the melts cutters are meant to work, but at a glance at the rules it does seem to be raw. Probably not a common enough vehicle to ever get a FAQ either.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: How reliable are people find pyschic powers to be in general? How often do they get denied and how many powers to do you tend to use? So far the only time I have used them.in game has been diabolic strength on a slaanesh dp and I have yet to not get it off. (Only played 3 games in 8th so far though.)
It's kinda a bit like 7th I'm finding. If the opponent goes hard with powers and you don't have enough deny juice then it's gonna be an issue. Mass smite is a strong army from what I have seen and now experienced.
Luckily chaos are in a great position defensively with the khorne strats etc in the book and the very very cheap chuck away units like brim horrors and malefic lords.
With that in mind from a competitive standpoint you are selling your self short without some defense. You can get 30 brims and a couple of male lords for 150pts as there own batallion give you 5 deny rolls 3 command points some useful smite and some annoying troops with a 4++ to score objs and also bubble wrap units so they can't be smited.
On a creative note, if you like Daemonic vehicles then a Tyrannocyte also makes a fine basis for a conversion. And if that's how you go, then bulking one up into a Kharybdis saves a lot of tinkering with heavy chunks of resin.
The owner of our local shop happens to have a Kharybdis in one of his display cases for his World Eaters army and being a Tyranid player I can assure you that a Tyrannocyte is way too small to represent that behemoth of a drop pod even with add-ons to make it look bulkier. The footprint and bulk of the Kharybdis while landed is closer to that of a Necron Obelisk without its flight stem.
lindsay40k wrote: With regard to Summoning: I've started a thread where we can vote on what's worth bringing along to summon and what's best left on the shelf.
I'm interested in this, not necessarily just for summoning but also as a sideline daemon force. I started 40k with tyranids because I liked the big monsters, and then got bored and went onto eldar because I wanted some nice vehicles to paint too. Then I went onto orks because of conversions.
I have since realised that chaos actually have the ability to do all 3 lol.
techsoldaten wrote: So yeah, world of difference between the KAC and a Dreadclaw. Not sure there's a reason to ever take a Dreadclaw.
I have said this atleast one time before either in here or in other forum, but I say this again:
KAC is nearly broken with the current stats, a mere +100 pts in price gives you much stronger melee and shooting and +6 wounds and higher toughness compared to dreadclaw. Or the other alternative is that the dreadclaw is overpriced, but KAC for mere 300 pts shoots more dakka than Land Raider and is almost as durable with only it's 3+ save making it to have worse durability than Land Raider, and then it also has double the transport capacity of Land Raider.
I would say KAC is nearly broken with current price, or if not broken atleast the dreadclaw is stupid investment compared to KAC. Which is sad as I happen to own a dreadclaw, love the model but it hasn't been that good on tabletop.
Havent used either the dreadclaw or the KAC myself yet, but after looking at the rules and seeing what people have said here, I think it may be a bit of both. The dreadclaw seems a little bit expensive for what it does and the KAC is almost certainly undercost. As mentioned before though, I'm not sure if they are popular enough models to get an FAQ. Then again, that might change now just because the KAC is so good this edition.
KAC might be a bit less overcosted if it loses its ability to carry multiple Squads. Right now it has an additional benefit of being a fantastic way to balance MSU with trying to finish deployment first.
Edit: I am entirely down with the challenge to make a suitably scaled one out of a T-cyte
hmmm I saw this in a battle report and it was raised in its comments.
Does Magnus have a 4++ invul save or a 3++ invul save? I know he gets a rerolls on 1s, but my impression was that he only has a 4++ invul save.
Tzeenth daemons get a special ability that raises their invul save by 1. But I am not sure this applies to Magnus. This is similar to how our CSMDPs don't get that special +1 to invul save even if they are tzeenth and they also don't get DR even if they are nurgle.
Unless this was FAQed and I didn't know about it. So is my understanding correct?
Because Magnus with a 3++ invul save and can reroll 1s for invul is ridiculous. That means only 2s can get through his save. That or you smite him to death with mortal wounds...
PS: Oh wait, he got a 3++ because he cast weaver of fates ... (Still stupidly powerful). I personally feel that regardless of faction, a 3++ invul save shouldn't be allowed. (Gulliman included).
So now that we know generally what Mortarion stats look like with exception for his Silence,Lantern and bombs - i must admit - i'm not impressed at all.
Magnus /Guilliman look like better stuff . Why ?
Funny ... isn't it - but he is just not that RESILENT at all.
Given that even lord of contagion beat him in aspect of armor 2+/4++ and FNP instead of 3+/4++/FNP. Either he got some other hax stuff like better FNP on 4+ or I can tell you that he aint even that hard to remove , tbh Magnus with weaver of fates on him may beat this guy in term of resilence.
Which is straightforward joke.
I easily expected him to have 2+ base save and 8T as he is supposed to be most tanky guy ever.
I will wait with my judgement until i see everything. But atm he looks like more damage oriented primarch rather than defense. Which is really unfluffy and just doesn't fit.
I would gladly give up some of offensive stuff to get that 2+ and 8T. Right now i can easily see this guy being deleted in 1 turn.
example where he "doesn't shine" : intercessors wound him on 5+ and force his invu save lol ... like WTF.
Was expecting you need some big guns to put him down, but seems few farts from bolters will do the job ...
And I don't want him to be broken op. If something needs to be sacrificed then take down his Strenght to 7 and raise toughness - at least bolters/slugas wont smash him on 5+.
I think have to see his full rules first ah. We don't know what those artifacts and silence do. You just need one or two OP artifact and he will look very different.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think have to see his full rules first ah. We don't know what those artifacts and silence do. You just need one or two OP artifact and he will look very different.
I doubt it will help ... unless some of his stuff gives some random defensive buffs like -1 to hit etc - then expect him being taken down in one turn by dedicated gunline who will go first.
Because from what we have seen he ain't tanky at all.
Magnus even if aint going first will be protected by changeling , guilliman with less than 10 wounds cannot be targeted and even if he does 2+/3++ just laughs at 3+/4++.
Seems legendary super tanky primarch is softie with same armor like primaris captain in gravis armor. Oh wait that captain can take sanctic halo for 3++ or armor of indomitus...
I just hope i will be proved wrong, my entire hype just died when i saw those underwheling stats :(.
Was about to preorder him , but ... I need to take look on his full stats first :(((.
Anyway, about his movement. That's not really a big issue. He already moves 12 inches, as fast as a DP. Plus, I assume those wings he has aren't for show only, so he will have the fly keyword. So, he will effectively be like a flying DP in terms of movement.
He is a CSM, so he can be boosted by warptime. Warptime him 12 inches up after he has moved his normal 12 inches means he is 24 inches up the board already. He should be in range then to charge something juicy. I think have to see his full rules to determine just how squishy he is. Maybe there is some rule we are missing here. I mean, if his DR is a 4+ DR with a rerollable 1, then all of a sudden he will look a lot more tanky.
