okie, struggling to work out then how you deployed the possessed 'and' the changeling 12.1" away?
Like I said, I daisy-chained them. The back edge of the main Possessed squad will be about 14" away from the enemy if I'm worried about Auspex Scan. The Changeling has a 9" aura. So I'd be getting his buff on the Possessed if he could be 23" away from the enemy. Now, that will rarely happen, but I get an extra 3" for every Possessed model that I remove from the main squad and put at max coherency trailing back to my deployment zone. I don't lose much by taking 3 models out of the 20 in the squad in order to get a 9" line back to The Changeling's aura. Likewise the Cultists can easily be set up so that 30+ of them are in easy charge range while the rest extend down one side of the board to screen and get buffs.
If I know I'm going first, I don't need to worry about having The Changeling in range on deployment, but I will want to Advance with him and my other non- deep striking buff characters. It seems to be clearly worth it to leave a line trailing back to be in range of re-roll characters even at the cost of having fewer models actually able to attack the enemy, especially for the Cultists, unless perhaps I roll such a great charge that I can move deep into enemy lines and tie up virtually everything.
Question: now that the Codex is out, do army specific rules still apply?
For instance, if I am running a World Eaters army, do all models still have to take Mark of Khorne? Would Daemon Princes in an Emperor's Children army still need to take MoS?
techsoldaten wrote: Question: now that the Codex is out, do army specific rules still apply?
For instance, if I am running a World Eaters army, do all models still have to take Mark of Khorne? Would Daemon Princes in an Emperor's Children army still need to take MoS?
The index rules do not apply, but there are similar restrictions in the codex
techsoldaten wrote: Question: now that the Codex is out, do army specific rules still apply?
For instance, if I am running a World Eaters army, do all models still have to take Mark of Khorne? Would Daemon Princes in an Emperor's Children army still need to take MoS?
If you are able to, you must take Mark of Khorne in a WE detachment.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Actually, if Abbadon is gonna sit in the back field with them just to provide rerolls. I would suggest you go world eaters and just use Kharn along with world eaters defilers. Kharn is cheaper than Abbadon, just as fierce on the counter charge, and Kharn also can provide rerolls to hit for your defilers.
Well,
A: My models are painted Black Legion.
B: Kharn only has a 1" bubble limiting flexibility and the ability to buff the rest of the firebase.
C: Abaddon gives immunity to morale to my other CSMs (or defensive Cultists if I paint them up. )
D: he gives bonus command points now.
E: If I want to play more aggressively, he. Can teleport with my Terminators while Defilers advance up the table.
And finally F: It would be embarrassing to use Kharn as a backfield babysitter!
techsoldaten wrote: Question: now that the Codex is out, do army specific rules still apply?
For instance, if I am running a World Eaters army, do all models still have to take Mark of Khorne? Would Daemon Princes in an Emperor's Children army still need to take MoS?
World Eaters must take the mark of Khorne, Emperor's Children must take the Mark of Slaanesh.
Insectum7 wrote: In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.
And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.
Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.
Actually, how are they a hilarious response to deepstrikers? Because of their twin heavy flamers? Still doesn't prevent say a host of scions who just want to jump strike in and unleash all their plasma or meltas.
Because they assault and mash things, and have a variety of weapons. They actually do ok taking plasma with the invuln and 14 wounds too. They are big and brutish and fun. Three of them together helps optimize reponses, firing Autocannons at one target, Battlecannons at another, Heavy Flamers and Assaulting a third.
At range they dont have to move, and get the rerolls from Abaddon. If the enemy gets close they react and pound stuff. The dual role sets them apart from most other chaos vehicles, and youre not locked into a strategy with them.
Re deep strikers - if you've got a Cultist or brimstone screen 3.1" away from your firebase, deepstrikers aren't going to do anything with their melta and their plasma will be halved in effectiveness. So they land, scratch some paint or overkill some Cannon fodder, and then they get double-Flamered and S16'd by Oscar the Grouch's final form.
Just starting out an EC army and was looking for advice if this loadout made sense:
5 TERMINATORS
3 storm bolters + Lightning claws
1 Heavy flamer + lightning claws
Champion with melta gun + powerfist
Icon of excess
They will arrive from DS with a Sorcerer in terminator armor w/ force stave and some kind of combi weapon and use warptime and preciense on them.
this is my logic:
Warptime will close the distance.
In the shooting phase I unload 12 bolter shots and 1 melta shot and hopefully in range of heavy flamer. This might strip away some chaff and/or weaken a unit before charging.
The average terminator will have 2x S4 attacks, against imperium a 5+ to hit (4+ if preciense goes off) gains me an extra attack. In addition re-rolling wounds because of LCs.
The champ is there to help deal with vehicles and multi-wound targets with the melta and powerfist.
the sorcerer will likely be in the open after his termy bodyguard gets warptimed and charges, although with good positioning this may not be a problem.
I am thinking maybe dual claws would be better? an extra attack in CC and the fact that all of that shooting might make the charge harder to make because of enemy casualties. However this would result in loss of flexibility.
Also would a reaper cannon be better than a heavy flamer? If warptime fails, the heavy flamer will not be in range after the DS. But my logic here is that the terminators will be in constant movement and the HEAVY profile of the reaper would not be ideal (-1 to hit).
Any advise from more experienced players would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
IMO a jump pack sorcere would do better because it has way more mobility once it comes on the board. If you are going slaanesh, you may want to consider combi-plasmas with the shoot twice strategy. I personally have been using chosen for this rile, but terminators can do it to for a cost. I dont think terminators are great for pure CC, so I wouldnt go dual LC. Some one mentioned earlier that they were using a detachment of renegade possessed as their CC guys in an EC army and that seems solid.
Insectum7 wrote: In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.
And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.
Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.
Actually, how are they a hilarious response to deepstrikers? Because of their twin heavy flamers? Still doesn't prevent say a host of scions who just want to jump strike in and unleash all their plasma or meltas.
Because they assault and mash things, and have a variety of weapons. They actually do ok taking plasma with the invuln and 14 wounds too. They are big and brutish and fun. Three of them together helps optimize reponses, firing Autocannons at one target, Battlecannons at another, Heavy Flamers and Assaulting a third.
At range they dont have to move, and get the rerolls from Abaddon. If the enemy gets close they react and pound stuff. The dual role sets them apart from most other chaos vehicles, and youre not locked into a strategy with them.
Re deep strikers - if you've got a Cultist or brimstone screen 3.1" away from your firebase, deepstrikers aren't going to do anything with their melta and their plasma will be halved in effectiveness. So they land, scratch some paint or overkill some Cannon fodder, and then they get double-Flamered and S16'd by Oscar the Grouch's final form.
True that, but it would require me to paint cultists. . . waaaahh.
^^ Slaaneshi Terminators with Prescience absolutely rock with combi-plasma. I agree that the Reaper is somewhat underwhelming compared with the Heavy Flamer, or even with another combi-plasma.
Likewise, term Sorcerer is ok if that's the model you've got but jump pack seems a lot more versatile. Especially for a sorcerer who's got buff spells. I have a term Sorcerer and his main purpose is to do some of what you're doing, hopefully landing in a Ruin, and then take advantage of his extra wound to be a deep insertion Summoner whilst having a 0+ save.
No one talk about the 50% from your Army You have to deploy, You dont think That they dont count has behing one the bord with the alpha légion stratagem?
DG will be getting a whole codex for themselves so dont feel too left out lol. I think chaos is in a pretty good spot right now with most things being usable and quite a few competitive options.
taetrius67 wrote: No one talk about the 50% from your Army You have to deploy, You dont think That they dont count has behing one the bord with the alpha légion stratagem?
They are not placed on the board during Deployment - they are Deployed in Concealment. They are placed on the board after Deployment has finished and so do not count towards the 50% on the table, any more than an Eversor who is deployed in Concealment and arrives in the first movement phase.
IMO a jump pack sorcere would do better because it has way more mobility once it comes on the board. If you are going slaanesh, you may want to consider combi-plasmas with the shoot twice strategy. I personally have been using chosen for this rile, but terminators can do it to for a cost. I dont think terminators are great for pure CC, so I wouldnt go dual LC. Some one mentioned earlier that they were using a detachment of renegade possessed as their CC guys in an EC army and that seems solid.
Thanks for the advice. While I do agree that a sorcerer with jump pack would add alot of mobility, I was actually planning on using a jump pack lord with 5 raptors. the reason being, the raptors are going to be my plasma delivery option (2 plasma guns and champ with dual plasma pistol) the jump pack lord with DS with them with a combi-plasma and will let them re-roll 1's for overcharge.
I feel as though a sorcerer wih termies would be ideal because warptime will help with their low mobility after DS (as well as getting the iniatial charge in) Also, Prescience combos very well with DTTFE and icon of excess versus Imperial armies (more than half the armies in reality)
I am in the opionion that EC termies can be a decent CC unit. The EC legion trait makes them always strike first and the icon of excess could be put to good use against most armies out there. There are also useful stratagems for ECCC units such as Excess of violence. Also You make a good point about dual LCs, as it would lower their flexibility and make them one trick ponies. Possesed aren't really an option for me, I do not like the models and they aren't very fluffy for a EC army
^^ Slaaneshi Terminators with Prescience absolutely rock with combi-plasma. I agree that the Reaper is somewhat underwhelming compared with the Heavy Flamer, or even with another combi-plasma.
Likewise, term Sorcerer is ok if that's the model you've got but jump pack seems a lot more versatile. Especially for a sorcerer who's got buff spells. I have a term Sorcerer and his main purpose is to do some of what you're doing, hopefully landing in a Ruin, and then take advantage of his extra wound to be a deep insertion Summoner whilst having a 0+ save. .
I decided against combi-plasma on termies because the unit was getting close to 300pts and the fact that I had no CC unit to speak of. In addition a lord would need to be with them for overcharge. I feel as though a sorcerer could help them out more because of warp time to improve their post-DS mobility issues. So I decided to put the DS plasma delivery option on raptors with a jump pack lord. Its slightly less OP but more mobile after the initial drop and costs about half the price of termies. The Sbolter/ lightning claw with a few added goodies (PF, HFlam, Combi-melta and Icon) is 251pts.
Good idea about dropping in ruins for added protection. I have yet to play a game but positioning seems to be a big part of getting gud in 8th.
I was trying to decide between Slaanesh Terminators or Obliterators to serve as a Chaos Scion drop. The average Obliterator shot is a lot like an overcharged plasma shot, and they get a lot more shots per point than the Terminators. But the Terminators can have a much bigger squad to take advantage of the relevant stratagems.
I think I'm going to try the Obliterators first because of their range advantage. The Terminators probably aren't worth it unless you really need the reliable 2 damage or have at least 7 or 8 of them, and with that many I think you'd often run out of things worth shooting at within 12". Plus it's much harder to screen the Obliterators.
The only reason I am not going hard at Obliterators and ordering like nine... is the fact that their models are HORRIBLE. :-p
Someone linked me to 3rd party "definitely not Obliterators" a couple months back that were gorgeous, but very pricey... once I can justify those, i'll be testing them extensively.
But man... Terminators do one fun thing Scions don't (albeit for much higher cost)... they don't immediately commit suicide by dropping in. :-p Just knowing I can theoretically earn their points back in one turn of buffed double-shooting, and still be on the table to some degree the following turn, is awesome.
@melbards I like all of what you're saying, the lord with raptors should work great. I still would give the sorcerer a jump pack and send him with the terminators all the same, but thats me. Andbits not that i dont think the terminators are bad at cc, but they're not worth their cost unless they can do both.
Im using slaanesh chosen with combi-plasmas, but I'm trying to decided if I should give the 6th guy a plasma gun or a heavy weapon (probably a HB). They will be infiltrating.
So has anyone run defilers since the codex? With the point drop they seem fantastic. Especially with WE tactics. Getting 5 S16 and 3 s12 attacks on the charge, coupled with the battle canon, reaper/ twin HB and a Combi-flamer for under 200 seems fantastic. Coupled with t8, 14 wounds and 3+5++ I might actually get a second and run them along side a jugger lord/herald.
StarHunter25 wrote: So has anyone run defilers since the codex? With the point drop they seem fantastic. Especially with WE tactics. Getting 5 S16 and 3 s12 attacks on the charge, coupled with the battle canon, reaper/ twin HB and a Combi-flamer for under 200 seems fantastic. Coupled with t8, 14 wounds and 3+5++ I might actually get a second and run them along side a jugger lord/herald.
The defiler doesn't get access to any of the Legion traits.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: The only reason I am not going hard at Obliterators and ordering like nine... is the fact that their models are HORRIBLE. :-p
Someone linked me to 3rd party "definitely not Obliterators" a couple months back that were gorgeous, but very pricey... once I can justify those, i'll be testing them extensively.
But man... Terminators do one fun thing Scions don't (albeit for much higher cost)... they don't immediately commit suicide by dropping in. :-p Just knowing I can theoretically earn their points back in one turn of buffed double-shooting, and still be on the table to some degree the following turn, is awesome.
I'm planning to stick random weapons on Centurions to represent them (so one Grav, Heavy Bolter, Hurricane, ML), but at least slightly orderly, so that's an option for you as well.
StarHunter25 wrote: So has anyone run defilers since the codex? With the point drop they seem fantastic. Especially with WE tactics. Getting 5 S16 and 3 s12 attacks on the charge, coupled with the battle canon, reaper/ twin HB and a Combi-flamer for under 200 seems fantastic. Coupled with t8, 14 wounds and 3+5++ I might actually get a second and run them along side a jugger lord/herald.
A few of my posts just prior are about Defilers, and I enjoy them quite a bit. Theyre multipurpose and tough. I'm currently taking 3
Are they T 8 now though? Theyre 7 iirc. Don't have the codex on me.
I am now 9-0 with my Chaos Marines and get this: I'm using as DEFILER. Yes. i said it. a DEFILER. I haven't even gotten a game in yet with the new Strategem for Daemonforges so yeah... I'm jazzed.
My Defiler Scourges helped the Defiler in the last game absolutely wallop some uppity Crisis Commanders who came to assassinate me along with their Crisis Team buddies. that was supremely satisfying. He ended the game having killed three commanders, a Crisis team, a Broadside down yonder way and a couple Drones. Kind of awesome.
How are people feeling about obliterator spam with the new codex? A spearhead with 6-9 oblits seems like a great add to most any army.
Deepstrike in with the MoS and double shoot to your hearts content. I'm liking alpha Legion for tactics as you can deepstrike 18-24" away for your guns to still work and be safer from return fire.
buddha wrote: How are people feeling about obliterator spam with the new codex? A spearhead with 6-9 oblits seems like a great add to most any army.
Deepstrike in with the MoS and double shoot to your hearts content. I'm liking alpha Legion for tactics as you can deepstrike 18-24" away for your guns to still work and be safer from return fire.
There are much better units to 2x shoot-strategem with than the Oblits, because iirc they only come in units of three, period. You'll get much more for your CP-buck using that on Slaanesh Terminators. That said, i'm looking at Obliterators as a pretty good option ONLY when they're getting a Changling buff + the Alpha Legion one, which means you'll absolutely want them dancing around their maximum range for as long as possible.
In this scenario, if you get first turn they're providing a lot of added value too, as they can be deployed at one of those "golden" ranges to deny deep-strike options. 18" up from your deployment means they'll have decent targets to shoot at, AND potentially (depending on the rest of your deployment), deny EVERYTHING behind them as a valid drop location.
buddha wrote: How are people feeling about obliterator spam with the new codex? A spearhead with 6-9 oblits seems like a great add to most any army.
Deepstrike in with the MoS and double shoot to your hearts content. I'm liking alpha Legion for tactics as you can deepstrike 18-24" away for your guns to still work and be safer from return fire.
One unit is definitely worth taking. You get diminishing returns with more of them because stratagems can only be used on one.
They're still pretty good though, assuming you're re-rolling 1s from a Prince or Lord (note that the Prince doesn't even have to be the same Legion if he's the same Mark). If I'm working this out right, they're almost exactly as good as 4 Scions against T7 3+. They're about 10% better if you have plenty of targets and a tiny bit worse if all you have is a single 10W thing to shoot at. They cost 195 whereas you can get a plasma command squad and a Prime for 104 points, or you can take a Troops squad too and pay 114 per 4 plasma gunners. So with the stratagem they're about as good as the Scions in terms of killing efficiency, and without it they're only about half as efficient. Of course they have several advantages. They're a lot more durable, especially if Alpha Legion, and they can also hit things behind screeners just as efficiently as Scions can.
The random gun stats makes thinking about Obliterators tricky. Like, suppose that you drop them near some Razorbacks and some MEQs -- enough that you're not plausibly overkilling things. If you're definitely shooting them at the Razorbacks, you expect to be about half as efficient as Scions. You're about 65% as efficient if you can use a CP to re-roll a damage roll of 1. If you're only going to shoot at the Razorbacks if you roll 2 or more damage, then, when you do shoot at the Razorbacks, you're about 70% as efficient as Scions. If you shoot at the MEQs when you do roll a 1 for damage, you're still half as efficient.
Their flexibility in targeting makes me think they're a compelling choice. Like, even in the worst-case scenario (S7 AP-1 D1), the unit is still shooting the same number of shots at a higher strength as a Razorback or a Heavy Bolter dev squad or Mortis Dread, and they're getting to shoot first and at full BS. And of course most of the time they're either wounding MEQs on a 2+ or getting AP better than -1.
Something that I think it's hard to overstate the importance of is how they can reach out 12" farther than rapid-firing deep strikers. Instead of keeping your guns 3" behind your screeners, you have to stay 15" back to be safe from Obliterators. I feel like they're going to be great for killing things like Devastators clustered around Guilliman behind a screen, or Dark Reapers hiding behind Wave Serpents. Probably people will adjust, but if you're coupling the Obliterators with a strong assault component, you're pretty happy if the enemy is spread out over half of their deployment zone instead of holed up in a castle behind a dense screen.
Obviously the Obliterators' big weakness is CC. Your opponent will want to charge them with practically anything available. They're useless in CC and they can't fall back and shoot. Again I think this is an argument for having your own CC units that get between the Obliterators and the enemy.
Personally, I'm looking at using only one squad in a list with Magnus, or three squads in a list without him. I feel like I definitely want to still have room for things like big Possessed and Cultist units, and so many of the stratagems seem useful that I'd really like a battalion and two other detachments.
*When I talk about efficiency in this post I'm referring to the results of a 100,000-sample monte carlo simulation. It would not be hard to enumerate the possibilities here but I don't think that kind of precision is necessary.
BTW,can I check something? Can I give an artifact to a champion? Like can I give Axe of Biting Fury to my berzerker champion? Because I actually think a berzerker champion with an axe of biting fury is more deadly on the attack compared to a chaos lord on foot with the same axe of biting fury. lol
CHARACTERs only :(
Question does that include unique Charcters like Ahriman or Magnus?
buddha wrote: How are people feeling about obliterator spam with the new codex? A spearhead with 6-9 oblits seems like a great add to most any army.
Deepstrike in with the MoS and double shoot to your hearts content. I'm liking alpha Legion for tactics as you can deepstrike 18-24" away for your guns to still work and be safer from return fire.
There are much better units to 2x shoot-strategem with than the Oblits, because iirc they only come in units of three, period. You'll get much more for your CP-buck using that on Slaanesh Terminators. That said, i'm looking at Obliterators as a pretty good option ONLY when they're getting a Changling buff + the Alpha Legion one, which means you'll absolutely want them dancing around their maximum range for as long as possible.
In this scenario, if you get first turn they're providing a lot of added value too, as they can be deployed at one of those "golden" ranges to deny deep-strike options. 18" up from your deployment means they'll have decent targets to shoot at, AND potentially (depending on the rest of your deployment), deny EVERYTHING behind them as a valid drop location.
I mentioned this in passing earlier, but I really don't think it's true that Slaanesh Terminators are clearly a better choice for the stratagem. Combi-plasma Terminators are at minimum 50 points apiece. So 25 points per plasma shot, compared to Scions' 13. Therefore they're always going to be half as efficient as Scions per volley, which is the same result I got for the Obliterators vs Razorbacks. And so you get slightly more out of using the stratagem on a 250 point Terminator squad than a 195 point Obliterator squad, but not much. You're going to need more Terminators before you're seeing a big difference. But let's say you've got 8 Terminators in a 400 point unit. That sounds great -- you're putting out 32 plasma shots at 12". This is 4 Scion squads' worth of firepower. But here's the problem: you're probably killing the things you wanted to kill well before then. You expect to do 28 wounds to Razorbacks with this (I'm assuming you're re-rolling 1s). That's great if you can put 2 Scion squads over near a Dreadnought and 2 over near a Predator, since you're very likely to kill both, but obviously your Terminators have to all set up together. What happens if your targets are far apart or if your opponent is screening well enough to make it hard for you to get in rapid-fire range of two good targets? Obviously you can still shoot half as many shots at something up to 24" away, but at that point the 195 point Obliterator squad is matching the 400 point Terminator squad's firepower. And of course, if you're putting out 32 overcharged plasma shots, you're probably losing a Terminator. Maybe you don't care about this at all -- maybe you're taking the unit purely for this one alpha strike -- but probably we should deduct about 50 points from their expected output if you're not counting on them to win you the game outright.
It's true that the Terminators have other advantages. They're much better in CC, although they'll rarely make it into combat on the turn they come in because everything near them will be dead. They pay for this by being much less durable than the Obliterators against most kinds of firepower, particularly plasma.
Obliterators can also operate independently much more effectively than the Terminators, since the Terminators absolutely need re-rolls or Prescience and will never ever shoot at something with a -1 modifier. You can drop a squad of Obliterators next to a Stormraven and have a very good chance of killing it, with stratagems. You can drop Obliterators along the enemy deployment edge, if they've moved too far forward, and start shooting backline stuff.
BTW,can I check something? Can I give an artifact to a champion? Like can I give Axe of Biting Fury to my berzerker champion? Because I actually think a berzerker champion with an axe of biting fury is more deadly on the attack compared to a chaos lord on foot with the same axe of biting fury. lol
CHARACTERs only :(
Question does that include unique Charcters like Ahriman or Magnus?
No. They have their own relics and can't take other relics.
I'm generally in agreement with @Dionysodorus here and pleased to have my Oblits back as a fearsome semi-autonomous danger, but there's a few points I'd like to mention:
- Scions seem to be extremely efficient and are in another army, they're a useful yardstick but not necessarily one on which anything should be rejected out of hand
- Terminators might be screenable against, but here's a thought: deploy a sorcerer on one side of the board with Warptime, and a unit that looks like it'd be deadly with it. Unless you're against GKs, you'll probably bait out DTW stuff to counter him, because no-one wants turn one charges. Drop in the Terminators, with a Prescience & Death Hex Sorcerer, conga lining them so Sorcerer is out of DTW but within Warptime range. Use Familiar to switch DH for Warptime, have them stroll up to the enemy screen, flame it twice, shoot the units behind it, and have a reasonable chance of a charge to boot.
I miss our brilliant autotake familiars, but the possibility for bait-and-switch is very interesting.
BTW,can I check something? Can I give an artifact to a champion? Like can I give Axe of Biting Fury to my berzerker champion? Because I actually think a berzerker champion with an axe of biting fury is more deadly on the attack compared to a chaos lord on foot with the same axe of biting fury. lol
CHARACTERs only :(
Question does that include unique Charcters like Ahriman or Magnus?
No. They have their own relics and can't take other relics.
Yeah i figured it was a nice thought though. Magnus with a +3 to smite
Alpha legion infiltrate definitely happens after the seize. The first battle round hasn't started until after the seize. I'm sure they'll FAQ it though.
It's powerful but putting all your eggs in the "I hope I get first turn" basket isn't a good way to consistently win games.
buddha wrote: How are people feeling about obliterator spam with the new codex? A spearhead with 6-9 oblits seems like a great add to most any army.
Deepstrike in with the MoS and double shoot to your hearts content. I'm liking alpha Legion for tactics as you can deepstrike 18-24" away for your guns to still work and be safer from return fire.
There are much better units to 2x shoot-strategem with than the Oblits, because iirc they only come in units of three, period. You'll get much more for your CP-buck using that on Slaanesh Terminators. That said, i'm looking at Obliterators as a pretty good option ONLY when they're getting a Changling buff + the Alpha Legion one, which means you'll absolutely want them dancing around their maximum range for as long as possible.
In this scenario, if you get first turn they're providing a lot of added value too, as they can be deployed at one of those "golden" ranges to deny deep-strike options. 18" up from your deployment means they'll have decent targets to shoot at, AND potentially (depending on the rest of your deployment), deny EVERYTHING behind them as a valid drop location.
You mean those super expensive units? Yeah of course 10 Plasma Terminators are gonna do more damage. Think about cost though. How many Terminators are you getting for 195 points? On top of having a better effective range I say you got the wrong idea.
I agree Alpha Legion is one of the strongest traits for them, but any of them work outside Black Legion to me.
Question on Chaos Boon strat. If your warlord gets turned into a spawn or prince, does it count's as having died, or does the spawn/prince become the new warlord?
What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
Termies is good, but remember in 8th, the Lord, and the Sorcerer are two different units, so only the termies will be warp timing and shooting twice. That said, probably wanna look to kit the lord out with something else other than shooty bits. I've always just left my sorcerers stock, because really, who cares, he's there to cast.
Any thoughts on Night lords obliterators? I'm liking their anti-infantry potential now, coupled with the fact that I can use midnight clad on them to trigger a -1 to hit for survivability, and mark them up with MoS if need be, to feed myself some extra dakka too. Only thing is that's pretty pricey at 195 points.
Ok so I tried out MoS on my IW obliterators. Oh man 24 shots. Thats alot of dakka.
I hade 2 Havocs 4 HB and 4 ML. And the both hade MoS.
But it feels wierd to have marks on IW units.
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
10 man Terminator squad is the best all with combi plasma and 1 lightning claw you can give the champ a chainfist if you want, basically deep strike them in prescience, warptime, leaving 1 guy slightly behind so he receives the lord buff for the squad double tap at two separate units charge a 3rd.
Rest of the army should be safe for a turn, since the opponent will generally try and deal with the terminators, if they survive double tap twice again, if they didn't start using the slaanesh stratagem on oblits.
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
10 man Terminator squad is the best all with combi plasma and 1 lightning claw you can give the champ a chainfist if you want, basically deep strike them in prescience, warptime, leaving 1 guy slightly behind so he receives the lord buff for the squad double tap at two separate units charge a 3rd.
Rest of the army should be safe for a turn, since the opponent will generally try and deal with the terminators, if they survive double tap twice again, if they didn't start using the slaanesh stratagem on oblits.
I wonder how long this sort of list will work, before people start bringing 3 units of SM scouts or the equivalent and creating a giant "no deepstriking" bubble around their whole army. And if they do that, do you just hold your 720+ point termy/sorc/lord bomb until a target opens up and fight 2000points with 1300, or drop in the first turn and kill some scouts?
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
10 man Terminator squad is the best all with combi plasma and 1 lightning claw you can give the champ a chainfist if you want, basically deep strike them in prescience, warptime, leaving 1 guy slightly behind so he receives the lord buff for the squad double tap at two separate units charge a 3rd.
Rest of the army should be safe for a turn, since the opponent will generally try and deal with the terminators, if they survive double tap twice again, if they didn't start using the slaanesh stratagem on oblits.
I wonder how long this sort of list will work, before people start bringing 3 units of SM scouts or the equivalent and creating a giant "no deepstriking" bubble around their whole army. And if they do that, do you just hold your 720+ point termy/sorc/lord bomb until a target opens up and fight 2000points with 1300, or drop in the first turn and kill some scouts?
Drop in the first turn with Oblits, and shoot a hole, then bring the rest of the sledgehammer. You can only use the stratagem on one unit a turn anyway, so you've got the option to blaze your way through with obliterators, and then bring the termies in. Franky a unit of ten might be overkill, but I'm a Night Lords player, and that's not really a thing
I am now 9-0 with my Chaos Marines and get this: I'm using as DEFILER. Yes. i said it. a DEFILER. I haven't even gotten a game in yet with the new Strategem for Daemonforges so yeah... I'm jazzed.
My Defiler Scourges helped the Defiler in the last game absolutely wallop some uppity Crisis Commanders who came to assassinate me along with their Crisis Team buddies. that was supremely satisfying. He ended the game having killed three commanders, a Crisis team, a Broadside down yonder way and a couple Drones. Kind of awesome.
.
You must be happy about it's massive price reduction then.
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
10 man Terminator squad is the best all with combi plasma and 1 lightning claw you can give the champ a chainfist if you want, basically deep strike them in prescience, warptime, leaving 1 guy slightly behind so he receives the lord buff for the squad double tap at two separate units charge a 3rd.
Rest of the army should be safe for a turn, since the opponent will generally try and deal with the terminators, if they survive double tap twice again, if they didn't start using the slaanesh stratagem on oblits.
I wonder how long this sort of list will work, before people start bringing 3 units of SM scouts or the equivalent and creating a giant "no deepstriking" bubble around their whole army. And if they do that, do you just hold your 720+ point termy/sorc/lord bomb until a target opens up and fight 2000points with 1300, or drop in the first turn and kill some scouts?
Just bring rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters. A three gun emplacement tosses out 36 s5 -1 shots and can be given the mark of slaanesh so you can fire twice. Pretty sure that takes care of any PITA scouts real fast and for real cheap.
If your meta starts filling up with infiltrating DS denial, start taking Fiends. You are not obliged to use your whole charge or pile in move; you can easily stage-manage it so that a single Fiend and a single Biker or Seeker etc gets their attacks against the Scouts, guaranteeing that the unit will probably survive. Wham, you're possibly blocking LOS, shutting down most shooting against characters, and the surviving scouts can't run away; full pile in and kill them in their assault phase, and the enemy have gifted you a stepping stone for glass cannon melee units.
I got my first game in with my Dreadclaw Chosen today. Didn't use them offensively, in fact they had to drop within our DZ to protect an objective. That loadout sure attracts some firepower!
Automatically Appended Next Post: RE 'CAN ALPHA LEGION USE THEIR STRATAGEM MORE THAN ONCE':
Strategic Discipline does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' - BRB, pg 215'
6 plasma Chosen is the contents of the Dreadclaw right? What HQs did you take with it and did you manage to do any summoning with them? I'm still wondering whether it's the way to go for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: RE 'CAN ALPHA LEGION USE THEIR STRATAGEM MORE THAN ONCE':
Strategic Discipline does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' - BRB, pg 215'
Wow, if this is official based on the rule book, its massive for melee focused armies. Alpha legion might now be the best melee army for CSM. Consider the amount of points you save in transports! Take a 100 man berzerker army. You will need 10 Rhinos if you don't want to foot slog them up the board. That's more than 700 points (I am not even sure you can fit all that into a 200 point army at this point). Now if you just use 5 command points and forward operatives. You can place them within 9.1 inches at the start of battle, ready to move, AND charge. At this point, who cares even if opponent seizes initiative or starts first. You only have to weather one round of shooting at most. And since you saved 700 points in Rhinos, that's 700 points more of berzerkers you can stuff into your army. And he needs to kill them all in one round of shooting before you hit his lines.
And if you place them all at 12.1 inch, he is out of rapid fire range and shoots you at a -1 because you are alpha legion. lol
Maybe it would be interesting to have a massive pure power armor army using forward operatives rule and see how that goes. lol 6 squads of normal CSM with 2 plama guns each squad. infiltrate 120 power armor bodies forward before turn 1. Start battle, rapid fire 240 shots and then charge in .... lol
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
10 man Terminator squad is the best all with combi plasma and 1 lightning claw you can give the champ a chainfist if you want, basically deep strike them in prescience, warptime, leaving 1 guy slightly behind so he receives the lord buff for the squad double tap at two separate units charge a 3rd.
Rest of the army should be safe for a turn, since the opponent will generally try and deal with the terminators, if they survive double tap twice again, if they didn't start using the slaanesh stratagem on oblits.
I wonder how long this sort of list will work, before people start bringing 3 units of SM scouts or the equivalent and creating a giant "no deepstriking" bubble around their whole army. And if they do that, do you just hold your 720+ point termy/sorc/lord bomb until a target opens up and fight 2000points with 1300, or drop in the first turn and kill some scouts?
Just bring rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters. A three gun emplacement tosses out 36 s5 -1 shots and can be given the mark of slaanesh so you can fire twice. Pretty sure that takes care of any PITA scouts real fast and for real cheap.
A couple things to point out:
1) you can't shoot the rapiers twice. They are vehicles and the crewmen don't technically "fire" them. They just stand next to them and watch
2) screening scout units or the like basically kills turn 1 deep strike. You could wait to bring your termies in, but still getting in double tap range of something that matters means that your opponent screwed up. Imo, it's not a viable competitive strategy. And that's without even considering how expensive the squad is. And that's not just me theorycrafting. I brought 10 terminators to a competitive RTT and definitely felt that they were the weak link in my list (was an otherwise extremely competitive list, so don't think I'm downing on them. I just think there are better ways to spend the points because a good opponent can mitigate their effects).
Sure, but you could wait until turn 2 or 3 you say! Ok. How do you feel about playing 500+ points down on your opponent for half of the game? Like your chances of victory? Me neither
So I just played a game with my World Eaters using the new codex. I lost badly to an Ultramarines list that used Roboute Guilliman, but really it was poor, poor tactical choices that lost me the game. I made the rookie mistake of charging the bubble-wrapping Conscripts in front of Bobby G. I attacked with one unit of Berzerkers, then my opponent used the 2CP option to attack out of turn with Bobby G (who had done a Heroic Intervention) and completely wiped a unit of Berzerkers before they could even swing. Now, between the two fight phases with the one unit of Berzerkers I wiped those Conscripts to a man, but that was all they accomplished before being Smited and shot off the board. Obviously I've got a lot to learn about how to play Berzerkers well.
I'm now thinking I might run a Vanguard of World Eaters with a Battalion of Alpha Legion. I might take a big blob of Cultists that will have that -1 to hit from shooting unless something gets close to them, and with their unit size they'll be able to absorb a fair few Smites instead of my more valuable units. Plus I might use the infiltrate stratagem to get a unit of regular CSM with Meltas closer to the enemy. All of my good shooting units will be Alpha Legion (along with a couple of Sorcerers as HQ's); the WE part will just be Berzerkers, characters, and Rhinos for them to ride in. Does this seem like a good idea?
Hi, I'm here from the Daemons thread. Now that we can take Daemon engines and get ObSec, how are these 4 ranged damage wise:
1. Defiler
2. Obliterators
3. Forgefiens
4. Lord of skulls ()
That doesn't sound right somehow. Doesn't that mean that all Chaos daemon units are obsec? Because they all have chaos faction keyword and they all have daemon keyword...
Lord of Skulls in a Deamon List is a waste imho because you dont hace the deamonforge stratagem wich is incredible effective on him.
Obliterators are really good now, they can put out a lot of hurt for 200pts and with 24" range you can drop them in a ruin safely and start hammering on your opponents vehicles or heavy infantry in his backfield. Just dont get caught in melee too fast.
I was thinking a Slaanesh Jump Pack Lord with the Cursed Crozius, Intoxicating Elixir and Exalted Champion warlord trait. That would make for quite a powerful melee unit. A friendly sorceror would try and cast Diabolic Strength on him when given the opportunity for even more fun.
saint_red wrote: I was thinking a Slaanesh Jump Pack Lord with the Cursed Crozius, Intoxicating Elixir and Exalted Champion warlord trait. That would make for quite a powerful melee unit. A friendly sorceror would try and cast Diabolic Strength on him when given the opportunity for even more fun.
You can only have one artifact on a given character.
stormcraft wrote: Lord of Skulls in a Deamon List is a waste imho because you dont hace the deamonforge stratagem wich is incredible effective on him.
Obliterators are really good now, they can put out a lot of hurt for 200pts and with 24" range you can drop them in a ruin safely and start hammering on your opponents vehicles or heavy infantry in his backfield. Just dont get caught in melee too fast.
If he's in a super heavy detachment, he unlocks the strategems and can use then IIRC
Eldenfirefly wrote: That doesn't sound right somehow. Doesn't that mean that all Chaos daemon units are obsec? Because they all have chaos faction keyword and they all have daemon keyword...
just hit on making my iron warrior sorcerer (who i'm taking alpha legion trait for) the mark of tzeentch on a disc to give mark of tzeentch rhino a 5++ and said rhino is carrying slaanesh havocs that i'll cmd pts to fire twice...
Eldenfirefly wrote: That doesn't sound right somehow. Doesn't that mean that all Chaos daemon units are obsec? Because they all have chaos faction keyword and they all have daemon keyword...
Only TROOPS
But all the daemon engines are not troops ah. LOS is a super heavy. The rest are heavy support.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: Hi, I'm here from the Daemons thread. Now that we can take Daemon engines and get ObSec, how are these 4 ranged damage wise:
1. Defiler
2. Obliterators
3. Forgefiens
4. Lord of skulls ()
Oh, you are just asking how is their damage range wise and not saying that these 4 will become obsec. lol I misunderstood. lol Obliterators are the most fierce. But Lord of skulls is decent too, especially with the demonforge strategem (really sick). Next is probably forgefiends and then defilers.
saint_red wrote: 6 plasma Chosen is the contents of the Dreadclaw right? What HQs did you take with it and did you manage to do any summoning with them? I'm still wondering whether it's the way to go for me.
I took standard Chaos Lord & Warptime-Prescience Sorcerer. Didn't get to cast anything as rolling as abysmal, didn't get to summon anything due to length of game, shooting was poor too - in fact, the only thing I achieved was dropping bodies around an objective. Still, that was enough.
luke1705 wrote: screening scout units or the like basically kills turn 1 deep strike.
What about if we bring some Nurglings? At the very least they can ensure one dropzone, might be broadcasting it a bit but they're an option and pretty cheap at that
saint_red wrote: I was thinking a Slaanesh Jump Pack Lord with the Cursed Crozius, Intoxicating Elixir and Exalted Champion warlord trait. That would make for quite a powerful melee unit. A friendly sorceror would try and cast Diabolic Strength on him when given the opportunity for even more fun.
You can only have one artifact on a given character.
Damn I had a sneaky suspicion that was the case but was at work and couldn't double check. I think it will still be a solid choice though, just drop Intoxicating Elixir and go from there. If you chuck Diabolic Strength on him he'll have no trouble at all beating people up. Since he doesn't need to be MoS you could also give him MoT and give him +1 invuln when he's in the thick of it.
what do you think is the best "range-support" unit for killing knight, landraider etc? I pretty like the laser-Predator and the Hellbrute with rocket / laser
what do you think is the best "range-support" unit for killing knight, landraider etc? I pretty like the laser-Predator and the Hellbrute with rocket / laser
In my last game it was another landraider.
But I would say lascannon/ML havocs over a helbrute as brutes can be torn up but knights and LRs. Havocs require many more shots to take out.
Blastmasters also work as they are d3 shot missile launchers.
Also the upgraded Oblits can be nasty with their 12 shots if you roll well.
And of course anything you can double shoot with slaanesh and heavy weapons. Plasma double tap termis can do a lot overcharged with prescience.
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
10 man Terminator squad is the best all with combi plasma and 1 lightning claw you can give the champ a chainfist if you want, basically deep strike them in prescience, warptime, leaving 1 guy slightly behind so he receives the lord buff for the squad double tap at two separate units charge a 3rd.
Rest of the army should be safe for a turn, since the opponent will generally try and deal with the terminators, if they survive double tap twice again, if they didn't start using the slaanesh stratagem on oblits.
I wonder how long this sort of list will work, before people start bringing 3 units of SM scouts or the equivalent and creating a giant "no deepstriking" bubble around their whole army. And if they do that, do you just hold your 720+ point termy/sorc/lord bomb until a target opens up and fight 2000points with 1300, or drop in the first turn and kill some scouts?
Just bring rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters. A three gun emplacement tosses out 36 s5 -1 shots and can be given the mark of slaanesh so you can fire twice. Pretty sure that takes care of any PITA scouts real fast and for real cheap.
A couple things to point out:
1) you can't shoot the rapiers twice. They are vehicles and the crewmen don't technically "fire" them. They just stand next to them and watch
2) screening scout units or the like basically kills turn 1 deep strike. You could wait to bring your termies in, but still getting in double tap range of something that matters means that your opponent screwed up. Imo, it's not a viable competitive strategy. And that's without even considering how expensive the squad is. And that's not just me theorycrafting. I brought 10 terminators to a competitive RTT and definitely felt that they were the weak link in my list (was an otherwise extremely competitive list, so don't think I'm downing on them. I just think there are better ways to spend the points because a good opponent can mitigate their effects).
Sure, but you could wait until turn 2 or 3 you say! Ok. How do you feel about playing 500+ points down on your opponent for half of the game? Like your chances of victory? Me neither
Good catch on the rapiers itself lacking the infantry keyword, I missed that. Either way I still don't see how anyone can complain, actually I am glad they can't fire twice as I was starting to feel like they were too strong for regular use. They are insanely cheap and will mulch any screening units, I made some using kataphron tracks and forgefiend hades autocanons, you can also use taurox tracks which are fairly cheap on ebay. I managed to build 6, with a 48" range I am confident no screens will even be worth taking against my armies, it pours out 72 shots that you can further buff with characters, I'd like to see who is wasting points when they try to screen you out with scouts.
As to your second point, I really don't agree with you at all. I have played null deploy armies in every edition and it was never a problem, you build your list to do it. You don't build a normal list and then jam a bunch of points in reserve, you take long range durable units for your base and then load up on units that crush when they deploy from reserve. Waiting until turn two is not an issue and in every other edition was the earliest you COULD arrive. As to your condescending attitude at your close? Lets try to work together and when we hit heads, let the other respond for themselves rather then acting like we already know better.
Kuklops wrote: A Decimator with C-beam cannons. 2 at 48"+ with 2 c-beams will strip a super heavy nicely.
Lascannon havocs in a bunker with MoS.
I am in love with decimators only I am eyeing the soulburner petards, a desimator with two only costs 150 and it shoots assault 4d3 shots that cause mortal wounds on hits with a 24" range and he moves 10" They also have the hellbrute keyword after the FAQ meaning you can fire frenzy with them, thats an average of 16 shots if you do from one.
Kuklops wrote: A Decimator with C-beam cannons. 2 at 48"+ with 2 c-beams will strip a super heavy nicely.
Lascannon havocs in a bunker with MoS.
I am in love with decimators only I am eyeing the soulburner petards, a desimator with two only costs 150 and it shoots assault 4d3 shots that cause mortal wounds on hits with a 24" range and he moves 10" They also have the hellbrute keyword after the FAQ meaning you can fire frenzy with them, thats an average of 16 shots if you do from one.
Soulburners got a price increase to like 60 apiece in the Forgeworld FAQ, so I'm thinking you're pretty far off about them being 150 points.
Kuklops wrote: A Decimator with C-beam cannons. 2 at 48"+ with 2 c-beams will strip a super heavy nicely.
Lascannon havocs in a bunker with MoS.
I am in love with decimators only I am eyeing the soulburner petards, a desimator with two only costs 150 and it shoots assault 4d3 shots that cause mortal wounds on hits with a 24" range and he moves 10" They also have the hellbrute keyword after the FAQ meaning you can fire frenzy with them, thats an average of 16 shots if you do from one.
Soulburners got a price increase to like 60 apiece in the Forgeworld FAQ, so I'm thinking you're pretty far off about them being 150 points.
Yeah, they're 210 now. Also, the stratagem is not helbrute keyword but just helbrutes, if it was the keyword imagine what a Leviathan with grav bombards or burcher cannon arrays could do!
That said they're top units. I run 2 marked Tzeentch and Alpha Legion with bog standard butcher cannons. They do very well stood next to the Changeling.
Morskul wrote: What would you all say is the most effective loadout for a Terminator Lord, Terminator Librarian, and 5 man Terminator squad that are designed to deep strike, double shoot and then get warp timed into CC on turn one?
I was thinking of 5 combiplasma, 3 axes and 2 chainfists on the Termies but no idea about the characters. Any thoughts? Legion will be Iron Warriors and they'll have the Mark of Slaanesh so they can use the double shooty strategem.
10 man Terminator squad is the best all with combi plasma and 1 lightning claw you can give the champ a chainfist if you want, basically deep strike them in prescience, warptime, leaving 1 guy slightly behind so he receives the lord buff for the squad double tap at two separate units charge a 3rd.
Rest of the army should be safe for a turn, since the opponent will generally try and deal with the terminators, if they survive double tap twice again, if they didn't start using the slaanesh stratagem on oblits.
I wonder how long this sort of list will work, before people start bringing 3 units of SM scouts or the equivalent and creating a giant "no deepstriking" bubble around their whole army. And if they do that, do you just hold your 720+ point termy/sorc/lord bomb until a target opens up and fight 2000points with 1300, or drop in the first turn and kill some scouts?
Just bring rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters. A three gun emplacement tosses out 36 s5 -1 shots and can be given the mark of slaanesh so you can fire twice. Pretty sure that takes care of any PITA scouts real fast and for real cheap.
A couple things to point out:
1) you can't shoot the rapiers twice. They are vehicles and the crewmen don't technically "fire" them. They just stand next to them and watch
2) screening scout units or the like basically kills turn 1 deep strike. You could wait to bring your termies in, but still getting in double tap range of something that matters means that your opponent screwed up. Imo, it's not a viable competitive strategy. And that's without even considering how expensive the squad is. And that's not just me theorycrafting. I brought 10 terminators to a competitive RTT and definitely felt that they were the weak link in my list (was an otherwise extremely competitive list, so don't think I'm downing on them. I just think there are better ways to spend the points because a good opponent can mitigate their effects).
Sure, but you could wait until turn 2 or 3 you say! Ok. How do you feel about playing 500+ points down on your opponent for half of the game? Like your chances of victory? Me neither
There's a much easier way to ensure a landing zone. If you're taking a detachment of Daemons with your CSM, take a single unit of Nurglings. Always deploy your "infiltrator" unit first, and you've just created a denial zone for your opponents own infiltrators/deepstrikers.
Kuklops wrote: A Decimator with C-beam cannons. 2 at 48"+ with 2 c-beams will strip a super heavy nicely.
Lascannon havocs in a bunker with MoS.
I am in love with decimators only I am eyeing the soulburner petards, a desimator with two only costs 150 and it shoots assault 4d3 shots that cause mortal wounds on hits with a 24" range and he moves 10" They also have the hellbrute keyword after the FAQ meaning you can fire frenzy with them, thats an average of 16 shots if you do from one.
Soulburners got a price increase to like 60 apiece in the Forgeworld FAQ, so I'm thinking you're pretty far off about them being 150 points.
Missed that, hmmm still super tempting though, at least running one with that load out. It's a threat that can't be ignored, maybe mark it Tzeentch and increase it's invuln or run the changeling near it.
Kuklops wrote: A Decimator with C-beam cannons. 2 at 48"+ with 2 c-beams will strip a super heavy nicely.
Lascannon havocs in a bunker with MoS.
I am in love with decimators only I am eyeing the soulburner petards, a desimator with two only costs 150 and it shoots assault 4d3 shots that cause mortal wounds on hits with a 24" range and he moves 10" They also have the hellbrute keyword after the FAQ meaning you can fire frenzy with them, thats an average of 16 shots if you do from one.
Soulburners got a price increase to like 60 apiece in the Forgeworld FAQ, so I'm thinking you're pretty far off about them being 150 points.
Missed that, hmmm still super tempting though, at least running one with that load out. It's a threat that can't be ignored, maybe mark it Tzeentch and increase it's invuln or run the changeling near it.
Also, decimators,did not get the Helbrute keyword. Just contemptors, deredeos and leviathans.
Well I can't say I am too upset with how balance is turning out. Even FW units seem in line after accounting for the FAQ (seriously though, wtfFW the book is a couple weeks old and so much sh*t is wrong) xome units are definitely very strong though, I still think rapiers and the scorpius are a bit on the strong side but I am sure more playing will show their weaknesses.
I fething love decimators still although with the helbrute being the only walker to have fire frenzy I am liking him more again. A helbrute with a twin las canon is a very solid choice. 1CP gets you 4 shots, situational though since it's the closest target.
I still feel the edge on elite walkers is in the decimators court though. He may not get to fire frenzy but he can demonforge which is also quite strong. He can also be repaired which is odd when contemptors cannot lol.
I haven't decided what roll is best for them, I like dual shooting weapons but I get this feeling having a combat weapon isn't a bad thing to keep things out of your back lines. Thats why I don't care for the C-beamer since he is total trash as soon as something gets to your deployment. That said the seige claw is kind of expensive. I am having a magnetizing nightmare in regard to my walkers to say the least lol.
I was thinking Soul Burner Petards for the Decimators (Black Legion, black is easy to paint) as they can move and advance to fire them, and dropping Abaddon in for the shooting rerolls.
I sure thought they got the Helbrute keyword, I guess no riding in my Dreadclaws :(
I knew Cultists were good, but I hadn't actually compared them to Conscripts before now.
A Cultist buffed by a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champion expects to do 80% more wounds to T4 than a FRFSRF Conscript when they each shoot and charge. Of course, mostly Conscripts aren't charging and much of the squad will be out of rapid-fire range, whereas Alpha Legion Cultists are going to deploy in a tight block right in front of the enemy with just a small daisy chain going back to the buff characters. Cultists put out 35% more damage per point than even on-paper Conscripts, and in practice they put out hugely more.
If 30 of your 40 Cultists get to shoot and fight, they expect to kill 10 MEQs. Unless these are naked tacticals, the squad has made its points back already.
Their one big weakness is morale. The Apostle helps with this a little, but it's still the case that if someone can kill 25 of them, the other 15 will be running. Abaddon obviously handles this, but he's very expensive and you probably don't want to deploy him on the board. On the other hand, your opponent faces the same kind of dilemma that Necrons present -- if you count on morale to kill the squad, and at least one model doesn't run (which 2 CP would guarantee), a whole bunch might come back next turn.
Dionysodorus wrote: I knew Cultists were good, but I hadn't actually compared them to Conscripts before now.
A Cultist buffed by a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champion expects to do 80% more wounds to T4 than a FRFSRF Conscript when they each shoot and charge. Of course, mostly Conscripts aren't charging and much of the squad will be out of rapid-fire range, whereas Alpha Legion Cultists are going to deploy in a tight block right in front of the enemy with just a small daisy chain going back to the buff characters. Cultists put out 35% more damage per point than even on-paper Conscripts, and in practice they put out hugely more.
If 30 of your 40 Cultists get to shoot and fight, they expect to kill 10 MEQs. Unless these are naked tacticals, the squad has made its points back already.
Their one big weakness is morale. The Apostle helps with this a little, but it's still the case that if someone can kill 25 of them, the other 15 will be running. Abaddon obviously handles this, but he's very expensive and you probably don't want to deploy him on the board. On the other hand, your opponent faces the same kind of dilemma that Necrons present -- if you count on morale to kill the squad, and at least one model doesn't run (which 2 CP would guarantee), a whole bunch might come back next turn.
The Long War podcast pointed out today that they can come back in on ANY table edge for the 2CP strategem... which after reading the codex, I agree with that means that if your opponent doesn't happen to kill them all, 2 CPs, and all 40 show back up, in your opponent's deployment zone. I have ordered a lot of cultists...
Dionysodorus wrote: I knew Cultists were good, but I hadn't actually compared them to Conscripts before now.
A Cultist buffed by a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champion expects to do 80% more wounds to T4 than a FRFSRF Conscript when they each shoot and charge. Of course, mostly Conscripts aren't charging and much of the squad will be out of rapid-fire range, whereas Alpha Legion Cultists are going to deploy in a tight block right in front of the enemy with just a small daisy chain going back to the buff characters. Cultists put out 35% more damage per point than even on-paper Conscripts, and in practice they put out hugely more.
If 30 of your 40 Cultists get to shoot and fight, they expect to kill 10 MEQs. Unless these are naked tacticals, the squad has made its points back already.
Their one big weakness is morale. The Apostle helps with this a little, but it's still the case that if someone can kill 25 of them, the other 15 will be running. Abaddon obviously handles this, but he's very expensive and you probably don't want to deploy him on the board. On the other hand, your opponent faces the same kind of dilemma that Necrons present -- if you count on morale to kill the squad, and at least one model doesn't run (which 2 CP would guarantee), a whole bunch might come back next turn.
The Long War podcast pointed out today that they can come back in on ANY table edge for the 2CP strategem... which after reading the codex, I agree with that means that if your opponent doesn't happen to kill them all, 2 CPs, and all 40 show back up, in your opponent's deployment zone. I have ordered a lot of cultists...
I've been thinking about trying this almost purely as a buffer against Smite. And if they don't all die, I'll just bring all of them back into the game in my opponent's DZ. This could get trolltastic very fast as you could then, after a bunch of them get shot/run off again, you could then make them reappear at full strength again. Granted, they are just cultists, but they still could control an objective thanks to sheer body count and Objective Secured. I've got like 40 cultist models, but is it enough...?
Cultist spam looks pretty cool. The fact that they can be recycled may limit their use as a skirmish screen, though - when forty of them descend on the enemy, they'll probably be expecting us to rinse and repeat if they kill most of them. So perhaps we should be thinking of ways to make them an inviting target, without getting them all killed? And have a plan B for when the enemy focus on them and remove the threat of recycling?
I've recently finished a Dreadclaw and this weekend should finish a Hellforged Predator with 5D6 of flame attacks, I'm reflecting on how similar their capabilities are yet how widely they differ.
Dreadclaw obviously delivers some plasma Chosen or zerks or possessed into a drop zone. If it gets Warptimed, it can also hit many units, including bubble wrapped characters. That suggests a couple of synergies - some Marauder Snipers and Infernal Gaze could collide to take out a support character. When taking a couple of casualties from many units, Raptors with Despair could make their Morale checks pile on the pressure. Night Lords especially will like this.
Whilst the Predator can pose a similar threat, its ability to pile on the flame on a single unit makes it feel like more of a counter attack model. It'll be a worry for deep strikers, it's going to make Deathleaper and Culexi think twice, and if a unit is melee oriented it'll really rain on their parade. Sadly it's quite overcosted at present, relative to the discounted Codex Predator. Though it can sit with a Predator Annihilator and Destructor and give them access to Killshot, right? Or does that need an FAQ?
After reading the last few pages, I'm thinking that i should shop an arm off my termies with twin claws and give them combi weapons, get a 3rd obliterator to make a squad (have 2 old metal ones) and stock up on cultists. A few units of 20-30 alpa cultists screening some berzerkes and/or termies with some sorcerers in deep strike, with some oblits, noise marines + las brute in the back, and some mobile units running around like a helldrake or some bikers sounds fun and strong if used properly, and you can always change how/who you infiltrate with if at all
doc1234 wrote: Outside of the DP with talons, not seen much talk on HQ builds. Anyone been having any joy with specifics?
I've used a Chaos Lord with Jump pack, combi-bolter and Black Mace. It's a decent threat/buffbot for it's 99 points. Fly gives it mobility and the ability to hurt flyers. Hunting AM heavy weapon teams or similar is a wel suited task.
The Daemon Prince and Daemon HQs such as Slaanesh Herald on Seeker Chariot are way more cost efficient through...
Bluthusten wrote: So you guys thinking a Squad of 40 is the best for Cultists?
I wanted to play 2x20 and 1x 10....
but I'm gonna try out a big blob of 40, lets see what happens
I think both large and small have their roles, large Squads are great for banzai charges to draw fire followed by ToT, small Squads can give cheap coverage for dropzone denial & DotG camping.
doc1234 wrote: So it sounds like the standard chaos lords may be dead?
Define standard chaos lord. I feel he is a great choice and can be built to boost almost any list personally. He is also super cheap. A demon prince can also do his job but he cost more and you want him in the front line really, beauty of a chaos lord is his versatility. You can still make him a member of the vanguard and he can beat face, it really depends on the load out. Bare in mind you can't take relic weapons on sorcerers, named characters or demon princes as well.
You can take relic weapons on sorcerers, not princes since Princes have weapons that no relics replace. The weapons themselves say which weapon they replace. princes can, however, take non weapon relics. The elixir prince is pretty common.
Has anyone taken a look at trying to build up an entire brigade detachment? I'm finding it difficult in a 2k list, mainly because so much of our stuff costs so many points, but since command points add so much to our fighting power, I'd kinda like to get my paws on as many command points as possible haha.
Gordon Shumway wrote: You can take relic weapons on sorcerers, not princes since Princes have weapons that no relics replace. The weapons themselves say which weapon they replace. princes can, however, take non weapon relics. The elixir prince is pretty common.
I think they mean that you can't take the weapons that replace power weapons, like the Black Mace or Murder Sword on a Sorcerer since Sorcerers always come with force weapons. You could take a power weapon on a terminator sorcerer but then you're dual-wielding and that's kind of a waste.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Has anyone taken a look at trying to build up an entire brigade detachment? I'm finding it difficult in a 2k list, mainly because so much of our stuff costs so many points, but since command points add so much to our fighting power, I'd kinda like to get my paws on as many command points as possible haha.
Thoughts?
I put together an Emperor's Children brigade that I think is pretty effective:
You could probably shuffle points around to make one of those cultist squads a 40 man if you wanted.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Has anyone taken a look at trying to build up an entire brigade detachment? I'm finding it difficult in a 2k list, mainly because so much of our stuff costs so many points, but since command points add so much to our fighting power, I'd kinda like to get my paws on as many command points as possible haha.
Thoughts?
It's easier if you use non legion stuff as there's more efficient choices but pure legion is doable.
6 units of cultists hurts, but isn't terribad.
Spare fast attack slots can be filled by spawn.
Gordon Shumway wrote: You can take relic weapons on sorcerers, not princes since Princes have weapons that no relics replace. The weapons themselves say which weapon they replace. princes can, however, take non weapon relics. The elixir prince is pretty common.
I think they mean that you can't take the weapons that replace power weapons, like the Black Mace or Murder Sword on a Sorcerer since Sorcerers always come with force weapons. You could take a power weapon on a terminator sorcerer but then you're dual-wielding and that's kind of a waste.
If that's what was meant, that's what should have been said. Also, regular sorcerers can take power weapons, just swap out their stock bolt pistol.
Can anyone explain why cultists are so good to me? I know if you run them alpha legion the -1 to hit at 4 points per model helps cap objectives but the low toughness at 3 and 6+ save with the low leadership means by time post-morale check you are losing essentially the entire unit in one swipe of a basic model (i.e. 1 flamer for 10 cultists) most of the time. They seem to have virtually 0 offensive capability - I don't see a competent opponent letting you draw any key units into melee with these guys.
I know there is the need for ObSec and bubble wrap but not sure why these critters seem integral to every competitive list - can you guys with more experience share?
If you're buying three minimum squads, you net yourself an extra few CP for that. Then you have the Strategem to recycle a near dead squad, and lastly the regular CSM squad is still garbage when you look at Cult Marines and Chosen and Terminators and Possessed and basically anything else.
120 points for a few extra CP and bubblewrap? It's a good choice.
orkswubwub wrote: Can anyone explain why cultists are so good to me? I know if you run them alpha legion the -1 to hit at 4 points per model helps cap objectives but the low toughness at 3 and 6+ save with the low leadership means by time post-morale check you are losing essentially the entire unit in one swipe of a basic model (i.e. 1 flamer for 10 cultists) most of the time. They seem to have virtually 0 offensive capability - I don't see a competent opponent letting you draw any key units into melee with these guys.
I know there is the need for ObSec and bubble wrap but not sure why these critters seem integral to every competitive list - can you guys with more experience share?
We need CP so we fill battalion detachments with the cheapest troop we have: it's a 120pt tax for +3CP and some objective grabbers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, big squads are better for denying deep strike should you not get first turn.
Gordon Shumway wrote: You can take relic weapons on sorcerers, not princes since Princes have weapons that no relics replace. The weapons themselves say which weapon they replace. princes can, however, take non weapon relics. The elixir prince is pretty common.
I think they mean that you can't take the weapons that replace power weapons, like the Black Mace or Murder Sword on a Sorcerer since Sorcerers always come with force weapons. You could take a power weapon on a terminator sorcerer but then you're dual-wielding and that's kind of a waste.
If that's what was meant, that's what should have been said. Also, regular sorcerers can take power weapons, just swap out their stock bolt pistol.
I thought it was fairly obvious to be honest, especially when we were discussing relic WEAPONS. But what the hay I'll break it down into small pieces so you can digest it. Sure you can hamfist a relic weapon onto a sorcerer but it's not even remotely worth it since they have less attacks that hit less often then a lord AND your paying points for a force weapon you then will never use and you miss the opportunity to take a combi weapon or save points and keep your bolt pistol. The ability to fire a combi melta and demon shell after a smite far outclasses a few swings with a relic. Swings that you then cannot have on your chaos lord who does it better anyway.
Now, having said that, if you have a home made sorcerer that you converted who leads your army and it's worth those costs to feel good fielding him then I am all for that. Strictly as a tactic however it's not a stellar move.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Has anyone taken a look at trying to build up an entire brigade detachment? I'm finding it difficult in a 2k list, mainly because so much of our stuff costs so many points, but since command points add so much to our fighting power, I'd kinda like to get my paws on as many command points as possible haha.
Thoughts?
I fiddled around in Battlescribe and made a World Eaters brigade detachment that uses only models I own (or could easily make with spare bits). It's not very optimized, but it shows that it is possible:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne: Power Axe, Power Fist, Brass Collar of Borghaster
Dark Apostle
Exalted Champion: Power Axe
Troops:
11 Cultists: Autoguns, 1x Heavy Stubber
10 Cultists: Pistol/BAW, 1x Flamer
10 Cultists: Pistol/BAW, 1x Flamer
10 Cultists: Pistol/BAW, 1x Flamer
5 Chaos Space Marines: Meltagun, Power Maul/Bolt Pistol for Champion
5 Chaos Space Marines: Meltagun, Chainsword/Bolt Pistol for Champion
Elites:
9 Berzerkers: Chainsword/Chainaxe, Power Axe/Chainsword for Champion
9 Berzerkers: Chainsword/Chainaxe, Power Axe/Chainsword for Champion
8 Berzerkers: Chainaxe/Bolt Pistol, 2x Plasma Pistol, Chainaxe/Bolt Pistol for Champion
Fast Attack
1 Chaos Spawn
1 Chaos Spawn
5 Raptors: 2x Meltagun, Power Sword/Plasma Pistol for Champion
Heavy Support:
Forgefiend: 2x Hades Autocannon, Daemon Jaws
5 Havocs: 2x Autocannon, Lascannon
5 Havocs: 2x Heavy Bolter, Autocannon
Dedicated Transport:
Chaos Rhino
Chaos Rhino
Chaos Rhino
Total 2000 exactly
I would take more Cultists instead of CSM, but I don't own any more. Cultists may be going on my "to buy" list soon, as I'm coming to realize their value for absorbing Smite damage and bubble-wrapping more valuable units. I may also see about getting a couple of Maulerfiends with Lashers, as they seem pretty good if not overwhelmingly so. I'm on the fence about Raptors vs. Bikes; both seem to have pros and cons. In a WE brigade, those Command Points can let a unit of Berzerkers triple attack as many as three times per game and still get a few command rerolls besides, so I think it's worth trying to make a brigade for them.
doc1234 wrote: Outside of the DP with talons, not seen much talk on HQ builds. Anyone been having any joy with specifics?
AL Chaos Lord on bike with Blade of the Hydra and 2 combi bolters . Fast, Durable, Cheap can put a lot of hurt on horde units from afar, and can mince Charcters in CC espically if you cast Diabolic Strength on him (makes Him S7 AP-2 D2 with 7A on average). Plus he can benefit from Boons which allow him to improve. Having a 2+/3++ is really good and if you cast weaver on him hes just 2++. 6W and T5 to start means most boons will push him to higher brackets for weapons.
Gordon Shumway wrote: You can take relic weapons on sorcerers, not princes since Princes have weapons that no relics replace. The weapons themselves say which weapon they replace. princes can, however, take non weapon relics. The elixir prince is pretty common.
I think they mean that you can't take the weapons that replace power weapons, like the Black Mace or Murder Sword on a Sorcerer since Sorcerers always come with force weapons. You could take a power weapon on a terminator sorcerer but then you're dual-wielding and that's kind of a waste.
If that's what was meant, that's what should have been said. Also, regular sorcerers can take power weapons, just swap out their stock bolt pistol.
I thought it was fairly obvious to be honest, especially when we were discussing relic WEAPONS. But what the hay I'll break it down into small pieces so you can digest it. Sure you can hamfist a relic weapon onto a sorcerer but it's not even remotely worth it since they have less attacks that hit less often then a lord AND your paying points for a force weapon you then will never use and you miss the opportunity to take a combi weapon or save points and keep your bolt pistol. The ability to fire a combi melta and demon shell after a smite far outclasses a few swings with a relic. Swings that you then cannot have on your chaos lord who does it better anyway.
Now, having said that, if you have a home made sorcerer that you converted who leads your army and it's worth those costs to feel good fielding him then I am all for that. Strictly as a tactic however it's not a stellar move.
I wasn't making the case it was good, just that it was allowed, sorry if you misinterpreted it otherwise. No need to go into the condescending territory.
doc1234 wrote: Outside of the DP with talons, not seen much talk on HQ builds. Anyone been having any joy with specifics?
AL Chaos Lord on bike with Blade of the Hydra and 2 combi bolters . Fast, Durable, Cheap can put a lot of hurt on horde units from afar, and can mince Charcters in CC espically if you cast Diabolic Strength on him (makes Him S7 AP-2 D2 with 7A on average). Plus he can benefit from Boons which allow him to improve. Having a 2+/3++ is really good and if you cast weaver on him hes just 2++. 6W and T5 to start means most boons will push him to higher brackets for weapons.
I gotta say, this idea is just fantastic and I might steal it for myself.
doc1234 wrote: Outside of the DP with talons, not seen much talk on HQ builds. Anyone been having any joy with specifics?
Got some Hellstriders on order to make Steed Sorcerers & Lords, going with Combi-Melta or Flamer loadouts dependent on BS to leverage ability to Advance & Charge same turn.
Plan is to use Nurgling deployments to force DS denial infiltrators to stake their claims early, and then deploy these guys with Fiends where they can get some turn one charges. Deliberately aim to leave something alive that can't fall back due to Fiends, and then play Warptime bait & switch with Familiars so that a Dreadclaw full of Possessed or Berzerkers can come in from an unexpected angle. Or maybe just drop in Chosen and Warptime the Dreadclaw into the middle of a load of units.
Can we take multiple artifacts from different legions if we have multiple Legion detatchments with the gifts of Chaos strategum? Like say I have a NL detatchment and an AL detatchment and pay a command point to get an extra artifact--could I get the claws for one character in the NL and the blade for a different one in the AL? It's sorta beardy, but I don't see why not.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Can we take multiple artifacts from different legions if we have multiple Legion detatchments with the gifts of Chaos strategum? Like say I have a NL detatchment and an AL detatchment and pay a command point to get an extra artifact--could I get the claws for one character in the NL and the blade for a different one in the AL? It's sorta beardy, but I don't see why not.
Gordon Shumway wrote: Can we take multiple artifacts from different legions if we have multiple Legion detatchments with the gifts of Chaos strategum? Like say I have a NL detatchment and an AL detatchment and pay a command point to get an extra artifact--could I get the claws for one character in the NL and the blade for a different one in the AL? It's sorta beardy, but I don't see why not.
Yeah seems OK. (But only Chaos Space marines, so not Death Guard or Thousand Sons or in the future Daemons.)
So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks
Msolve wrote: So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks
I assume any GW/forgeworld model will work for a similar model. I dont see why not.
They are pretty big, but they could be cut down to size. I would really like to see the conversion if you do do it. Edit: I totally misread what you said, the kakaphoni work just fine for Noise Marines (was thinking for a Helbrute twin gun).
Msolve wrote: So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks
I assume any GW/forgeworld model will work for a similar model. I dont see why not.
My friend has them. They're the same size. You're good to go, dude.
luke1705 wrote: screening scout units or the like basically kills turn 1 deep strike.
What about if we bring some Nurglings? At the very least they can ensure one dropzone, might be broadcasting it a bit but they're an option and pretty cheap at that
I should clarify - it kills turn 1 deep strike assault. Getting the landing zone isn't the issue - it's assaulting something OTHER than screening units. Even my berserkers have issues getting to the meat of things, and they can pile, fight and consolidate 3 times if I need them to!
For shooting units, this is less of an issue, but even my obliterators have been screened out of range of the targets they actually want to shoot multiple times in deployments that aren't dawn of war.
There's a much easier way to ensure a landing zone. If you're taking a detachment of Daemons with your CSM, take a single unit of Nurglings. Always deploy your "infiltrator" unit first, and you've just created a denial zone for your opponents own infiltrators/deepstrikers.
Nurglings I do feel could become a competitive staples to reliably stop your opponent's infiltration/deep strike units, but then again if you just screen effectively enough maybe you don't need them.
Gordon Shumway wrote: You can take relic weapons on sorcerers, not princes since Princes have weapons that no relics replace. The weapons themselves say which weapon they replace. princes can, however, take non weapon relics. The elixir prince is pretty common.
I think they mean that you can't take the weapons that replace power weapons, like the Black Mace or Murder Sword on a Sorcerer since Sorcerers always come with force weapons. You could take a power weapon on a terminator sorcerer but then you're dual-wielding and that's kind of a waste.
If that's what was meant, that's what should have been said. Also, regular sorcerers can take power weapons, just swap out their stock bolt pistol.
I thought it was fairly obvious to be honest, especially when we were discussing relic WEAPONS. But what the hay I'll break it down into small pieces so you can digest it. Sure you can hamfist a relic weapon onto a sorcerer but it's not even remotely worth it since they have less attacks that hit less often then a lord AND your paying points for a force weapon you then will never use and you miss the opportunity to take a combi weapon or save points and keep your bolt pistol. The ability to fire a combi melta and demon shell after a smite far outclasses a few swings with a relic. Swings that you then cannot have on your chaos lord who does it better anyway.
Now, having said that, if you have a home made sorcerer that you converted who leads your army and it's worth those costs to feel good fielding him then I am all for that. Strictly as a tactic however it's not a stellar move.
I wasn't making the case it was good, just that it was allowed, sorry if you misinterpreted it otherwise. No need to go into the condescending territory.
Not being condescending at all. Not sure what your expecting is fair, to have it spelled out for you or assume you can follow a case to its logical end. Earlier you asked for it spelled out so I did.
As far as it being possible, yea sure it's possible but if it's obviously bad I am not sure it's worth bringing into a tactics thread unless you have a cool idea for a conversion. Which by the way I was being serious about, I actually like unique characters people tailor to their fluff quite a bit and I give them a pass on point efficiency.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Msolve wrote: So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks
They are perfect mate. You can always add 40k packpacks and some other bits and bobs but otherwise they are already pretty evil looking.
I'm really not impressed with the Brigade. Same CP as a Spearhead, Vanguard, Outrider, and two Battalions, but fewer HQ and far less scope to forfeit a little purity to field non-Legion units. I can't help but feel like in most large-but-not-apoc games, we'll be better off with multiple smaller detachments with more characters and a few Daemons here and there than trying to cram all those trios into a list that'll have a load of minimum strength units. Build your army around synergy, not trying to squeeze every last CP out.
.
Played a 2k game against an AM/IG Death Korps army yesterday. Lots of LOS blocking terrain, not that it made a substantial difference with how much damn artillery he had.
General Observations:
IG castling up is a really hard nut to crack. He was running a Banehammer as well as a Manticore, three basilisks, and a Demolisher tank commander. That's a lot of hammer to hammer through.
The IG order to double fire rapid fire weapons is nasty on their plasma... lesson learned.
Night Lords Specific Stuff:
Miagna of Nurgle, -1 to hit + In Midnight Clad can potentially give raptors with the Mark of Nurgle a -2 to hit for a turn. Sneaky stuff.
Also, BEZERKERS and NOISE MARINES ARE NOW TROOPS in their specific legions...
Also you'd think that with that with THAT FAQ for World Eaters and Emperors Children, they'd fix Obliterators and Mutilators for Iron Warriors, Chosen for Alpha Legion, Possessed for Oerd Bearers, and...yeah Renegades get nothing. NOTHING
With the news of the legion trait on the DP, we can say that the Lord is definetly useless, seriously, why take the chaos lord over a Daemon Prince, if not for fluff reasons? The huge difference IMHO is in the possibily for the Prince to cast a power, which are essential right now (that's why WE hit like trucks).
Talking about Cultists I agree with the majority, since it came out the bolter profile (No AP ffs...) it was clear that the normal marine would have been trash, and with all these new buffs, its clear that on basic troops you need quantity of attacks, not quality.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also you'd think that with that with THAT FAQ for World Eaters and Emperors Children, they'd fix Obliterators and Mutilators for Iron Warriors, Chosen for Alpha Legion, Possessed for Oerd Bearers, and...yeah Renegades get nothing. NOTHING
Renegades have one of the better traits in the book IMO. While Renegade Khorne Berzerkers aren't as strong as World Eaters ones and can't be taken as Troops, the ability to advance and charge is not to be taken lightly. They can perhaps skip taking a transport at that rate and can therefore be viable in a huge blob that your opponent will have to focus down to kill, meaning the rest of your stuff gets ignored. Plus Renegades' basic CSM can advance, fire flamers or meltas into something and then charge it (best outfit them with chainswords). Renegades are pretty solid.
Moreover, let me know what you think about, I found that the possibility to field a huge bubblewrap of cheap troops is a huge advantage, it saves you from sneaky deepstrikes and charges (so many times I won against orks because they charged the cultist and get wipped by my berzerker the next turn). Also it takes only one unit to tarpit that shooting unit (they kill expensive eldar so easily) or take the objective that win you the game.
With the buff on charges this game has become Chess-like, and we need pawns.
DarklyDreaming wrote: With the news of the legion trait on the DP, we can say that the Lord is definetly useless, seriously, why take the chaos lord over a Daemon Prince, if not for fluff reasons? The huge difference IMHO is in the possibily for the Prince to cast a power, which are essential right now (that's why WE hit like trucks).
Talking about Cultists I agree with the majority, since it came out the bolter profile (No AP ffs...) it was clear that the normal marine would have been trash, and with all these new buffs, its clear that on basic troops you need quantity of attacks, not quality.
I think he's solid but definitely not an auto take over a lord. Lords are cheaper and provide the same buff to your back field. Lords also have more then one way to deepstrike and can take relic weapons. A prince gets you a jack of all trades kinda model. He's mobile, solid in combat, provides a buff and can cast spells. He also pays to do all of that, so if you just need a guy that buffs your predators or a guy to cast a certain spell then your over paying a bit. I like every character except the exalted champion and the dark apostle to be honest.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: So now that WE and EC can take thier respective cult units as troops choices again what combos are ypu guys seeing?
Probably the same ones as before, just with Berzerkers as Troops I can take a Battalion of them instead of a Vanguard detachment. I usually take 2 HQ's anyway (Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle), so basically I get 2 extra CP's to do the same thing, which is good considering I'd love to get Berzerkers attacking three times at least twice per game.
Speaking of the 3 CP extra attack stratagem, I wonder if it would actually be spicy on a Daemon Prince of Khorne attacking something big like a Knight or Morkanaut or something like that. Khorne DP's get an extra attack anyway, and with an axe they hit very hard, and rerolling 1's helps mitigate the -1 to hit from the axe. The extra swings from the stratagem could make a DP kill a Knight in one turn, which would be really great for a 180-point model. I'll have to give this further thought...
The Prince buff is super nice. A Slaanesh Prince with daemon strength and the elixir with claws is a blender. A very nasty blender that easily killed about 300-400 points of units last night.
I am excited to have my noise marines back as troops. It changes just a few small things in my list but it gives me some points back as well.
Also blastmasters are just amazing and I love them.
Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.
You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.
So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.
I'm really happy that the cult troops situation was sorted out. The idea that 'they didn't want these as troops' never made sense, given that half Plague Marines and Rubric Marines will be in their respective legions by year's end, and Berzerkers and Noise Marines in theirs soon enough.
And I'm glad from a flavour perspective particularly that Daemon Princes gain their Legion Traits. As a thought from who benefits most to least:
Tier 1: The ones that always apply (and are useful)
Renegades: Your DP with wings can now move 12, advance d6, and then charge 2D6. I mean, wow.
Night Lords: I think that this ability synergizes really well with Lord of Terror. So now your Lord gives a Ld debuff, and then make your enemy roll 2D6 for morale. A Night Lords DP is really something to fear.
Tier 2: The ones that apply situationally, and are good; or apply all the time and are average
Emperor's Children: You take DPs as a close-combat monster HQ, rather than a buffer, so having the ability to strike first even when charged is pretty amazing. I'd put it higher, but DPs have a good chance of charging rather than being charged anyway.
Alpha Legion: It's a nice buff, particularly in the late game, when unit numbers are diminished. But it's not amazing as in 7th with Death Guard given that you already can only shoot DPs at all if they're the closest target. But still nice.
World Eaters: As DPs charge this might initially seem 'better' than the EC buff, except for two things: first, it still really doesn't make up for his lack of psychic powers; and second, Slaanesh Lords can already get +1A, and, particularly, +1S with their relic, making ECDPs, weirdly, better in CC than WE ones. Sure, WE is up one attack, but EC has +1A and strikes first all the time.
Tier 3: The stinkers
Iron Warriors: Well, DPs do now have Warp Bolters, but it's not what they're for.
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Black Legion: Amazing. Simply amazing. If it wasn't enough that Black Legion easily got the worst legion trait, their DP doesn't get any benefits from it except in really rare circumstances where you take Ld tests outside of morale. I mean, if this was 7th, and he gave a Ld bubble that would be nice, but it's 8th, and it stinks.
Also unfortunate is that I think that these changes really again cement various armies as better CC forces than World Eaters, and it makes this gap bigger. I'd say that it goes like this:
1) Alpha Legion - With resistance to shooting and infiltrating Berzerkers, they can get people into combat safer and quicker, mitigating the two big weaknesses of CC. And there is the bonus of sorcerer support.
2) Renegades - The ability to advance and charge allows them to get their units into CC more consistently. Losing out on Veterans of the Long War is a big issue, though.
3) Emperor's Children - I think these guys appear here after a noticable gap (hence the above gap).Has the smashiest DP, with an elixer that gets them to that miracle level S8, and various units always hitting first, they're a force to be reckoned with in CC. And their strategem + banner gives them crazy extra attacks. But lacking Berzerkers, which is really the only 'great' CC unit in another shooty edition hurts. And there is the bonus of sorcerer support.
4) World Eaters - Berzerker troops are very nice, although cultists, I feel, are still necessary to include as cappers, given that everything else is presumably rushing forward, so it's not the biggest bonus for them. It can net them some easy extra CP with a double-battalion though. The extra attacks do of course help a lot when charged, but it's a question of getting people there, and safely, which all of the above armies do better. Everyone (except EC) gets Berzerkers anyway, so no real bonus there. The Khorne strategem is nice enough, but again everyone can take it. And their relics only really help against psykers. But lacking psychic support is just such hit in the nuts.
=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSUCC army.
So you may disagree with my ordering, but I do think that it's a bit sad that WE is not clearly the best, or equal best, CC legion at the moment. Any one of their units, on paper, is better in CC, but their lack of any tricks to get them there really hurts.
Msolve wrote: So I am really liking the rules for Noise Marines but I am really not liking the old models. Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Kakophoni make a good stand in for Sonic Blaster models?
Thanks
I assume any GW/forgeworld model will work for a similar model. I dont see why not.
My friend has them. They're the same size. You're good to go, dude.
=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSUCC army.
Nice thing about the Night Lords is that if you do paste a unit(s) and/or they fall back from the combat, you can spend 1 CP and drop In The Midnight Clad and make everyone shooting a them suffer the -1 to hit. Which beyond the simple -1 to hit, it eliminates any ones buff to re-rolling 1's only as well.
=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSUCC army.
Nice thing about the Night Lords is that if you do paste a unit(s) and/or they fall back from the combat, you can spend 1 CP and drop In The Midnight Clad and make everyone shooting a them suffer the -1 to hit. Which beyond the simple -1 to hit, it eliminates any ones buff to re-rolling 1's only as well.
No it doesn't. Modifiers happen after re-rolls. If they roll a 3, which would be a hit, and the -1 makes it a miss, they can't re-roll that. Same with re-roll 1 auras, it's only what the dice says, no modifiers.
What it does do is make plasma marines more likely to kill themselves on Overcharge.
It is still weird to me that people think the NL trait is useful. It's a trait you have to build around that will do nothing against multiple armies. That's fine in friendly games where you know what your opponent has, but it'll never be a good choice anywhere else, particularly not when those armies that utterly shut it down tend to already be top tier armies. Maybe as a small detachment in a larger force, but even that I'd just rather have the reliability of WEs. Who, in all honesty, will generally offer as much extra oomph unless you go all in on the LD nerds and I already said why I think that's a horrible plan.
I think WE are still the best legion for a mechanized melee army. AL and renegades both work well for footslogging and AL can also do the forward deploy trick, but they don't offer a lot to a mechanized force.
are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)
I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.
=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSUCC army.
Nice thing about the Night Lords is that if you do paste a unit(s) and/or they fall back from the combat, you can spend 1 CP and drop In The Midnight Clad and make everyone shooting a them suffer the -1 to hit. Which beyond the simple -1 to hit, it eliminates any ones buff to re-rolling 1's only as well.
No it doesn't. Modifiers happen after re-rolls. If they roll a 3, which would be a hit, and the -1 makes it a miss, they can't re-roll that. Same with re-roll 1 auras, it's only what the dice says, no modifiers.
What it does do is make plasma marines more likely to kill themselves on Overcharge.
Yeah I know. I was mis-thinking when I typed that. So ignore the re-rolling 1's and bask in the benefit of the general -1, which was the main point.
So messing with lists and schemes, I am thinking of running a big block of 15 Raptors in my Night Lords list, just everybody with chainswords, ready to get stuck in. The question is, do I reun them as Nurgle, or Khorne. Reasoning:
Nurgle: icon of Despair for an addition -1 leadership, plus I cancast Miasma of Pestilence on them, making them -1 to hit from shooting and CC attacks. Adding in 'In Midnight Clad', they could potentially be -2 to hit from shooting
Khorne: Banner of Wrath to re-roll the charge from deepstrike, and then use Fury of Khorne for a second batch of attacks, essentially making the Raptors jump pack bezerkers.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: So messing with lists and schemes, I am thinking of running a big block of 15 Raptors in my Night Lords list, just everybody with chainswords, ready to get stuck in. The question is, do I reun them as Nurgle, or Khorne. Reasoning:
Nurgle: icon of Despair for an addition -1 leadership, plus I cancast Miasma of Pestilence on them, making them -1 to hit from shooting and CC attacks. Adding in 'In Midnight Clad', they could potentially be -2 to hit from shooting
Khorne: Banner of Wrath to re-roll the charge from deepstrike, and then use Fury of Khorne for a second batch of attacks, essentially making the Raptors jump pack bezerkers.
Thoughts?
Khorne buffs the one thing that can go wrong with raptors, giving you a better chance. And doubles the effectiveness.
The opposing view is mildly reducting from when it does go wrong, you should be playing for the best chance to make it go right no?
I am voting Nurgle. The whole thing with Nightlords is you want stacking negatives to leadership so a slight tap to a squad leads to half of them running away.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)
I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.
Why were WE ever not viable? I've been running variations of WE lists since launch and they've all done brilliantly, they even put up a tough fight for the most competitive Guard lists, now with +1A on the charge? Not really changed Zerkers much but Khorne Terminators have just become my go to unit! Easily capable of destroying 2 different units when they drop from deep strike.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)
I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.
Well zerkers are troops for WE now, so you can run them without cultists. Though honestly I'd be inclined to run at least some cultists as objective grabbers, zerkers are for charging into the enemy.
As for how they look, keep in mind there is no "pure" legion list that out performs one using detachments from multiple legions tailored to role. WE are a solid choice for a pure assault army however, or as the assault portion of a mixed army. Solid all around if you plan to deepstrike a lot of units or mainly use mechanized assault troops.
Are Warp Talons actually worth a look now? They've been reduced in cost slightly again (lower cost of double claws) and with certain legion tactics I think they might be able to do some work. I think the best legion for them would be World Eaters since they get +1A on the charge, plus if they are marked Khorne they could use the stratagem to attack a second time. They could at least supplement Berzerkers, although perhaps the best thing to supplement Berzerkers with is simply more Berzerkers.
Why Khorne terminators I'm confused how did they get better aren't chaos terminators drop and shoot, I thought that would be EC that made them better.
SilverAlien the new codex made Berzerkers Elites everyones been talking about it mate sorry.
Zergsmasher Warp Talons with the overwatch thing look good but they need a lord or something to drop with them and cast warptime I think, can you do that if they are Khorne? if you can you are looking at first turn great charges. The only problem being of course screening units so they'd serve as a distraction more than anything, but gorgeous models what a distraction unit.
So with today's CSMFAQ, a Sup Command Det. of Daemon Prices (3 in my case) can take the Renegades CSM Legion trait; then can advance and charge in the same turn? They can still take the mark of Tzeentch as well right?
That seems amazing when running with Magnus, SOT, The changeling, some brims and BeLakor (I take him cuz he is painted and I throw some buff on him and let him beat face along with Magnus (ie Bullet Magnet).
With 10 drops, I might actually get a chance to go first and make this a decent alpha list.
Warptalons look pretty beast, if you're casting Warptime on them then they may well have jumped over the screening unit and can declare a charge on everyone within 12", facing zero overwatch - and then when you roll the distance see what you can reach. "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge" - so you have free reign to daisy chain all over the place, exploit Pile In, burn off 3CP to really get in there - remember,if your initial charge distance was good, you can have half your unit zoom up to be 1.1" in front of a load of support units, and then you are OBLIGED to pile into them, EVEN IF you didn't charge them, COMPLETELY IGNORING their two dozen flamers. On top of that, if you are 1.3" in front of a Leman Russ, you can pile in sideways so that you are 1.2" in front of it, and then do the same with your after attacks pile in, so that your Fury of Khorne stratagem lets you sidestep again to 1.1" away from it, and then again to 1" - and also 1" away from a Company Commander. Wham, even on a snake eyes charge you've moved 26", entangling a mass of enemy units into melee. Unless you're facing Ultramarines, that's a hell of a lot of disruption - and even then, they're a nuisance.
...or, you might fail to cast Warptime. Still, nice trick for Magnus
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Why Khorne terminators I'm confused how did they get better aren't chaos terminators drop and shoot, I thought that would be EC that made them better.
I have a Night Lords suplimentry force that allows me to bring sorcerers to the table, so each game a have a 5 man WE terminator unit w/ plasma +of, WE terminator lord and a NL sorcerer in reserve. Each game they drop in, I cast warptime + prescience on the terminators and then unleash hellfire: 12x S8 ap-3 D2 shots hitting on 2s (and always wounding on 2s/3s with VotLW), which is likely to kill or cripple something beyond repair, then they charge in with a total of 16xS8 ap-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 3s (can use VotLW again here), which again will utterly destroy or cripple something. The +1A on the charge really pushed Terminators from a nusense to an actual threat.
The Slaanesh stratagem is very good but we aren't some namby pamby Emperor's Children warband, we are the World Eaters! Slaughter your opponent in combat or don't slaughter at all!
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Why Khorne terminators I'm confused how did they get better aren't chaos terminators drop and shoot, I thought that would be EC that made them better.
I have a Night Lords suplimentry force that allows me to bring sorcerers to the table, so each game a have a 5 man WE terminator unit w/ plasma +of, WE terminator lord and a NL sorcerer in reserve. Each game they drop in, I cast warptime + prescience on the terminators and then unleash hellfire: 12x S8 ap-3 D2 shots hitting on 2s (and always wounding on 2s/3s with VotLW), which is likely to kill or cripple something beyond repair, then they charge in with a total of 16xS8 ap-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 3s (can use VotLW again here), which again will utterly destroy or cripple something. The +1A on the charge really pushed Terminators from a nusense to an actual threat.
The Slaanesh stratagem is very good but we aren't some namby pamby Emperor's Children warband, we are the World Eaters! Slaughter your opponent in combat or don't slaughter at all!
That sounds awesome I wasn't aware you can mix and match things like that (I said I'm new to chaos still working my way through it I've got two new armies -tyranids- on go its taking some time)
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lindsay40k wrote: Warptalons look pretty beast, if you're casting Warptime on them then they may well have jumped over the screening unit and can declare a charge on everyone within 12", facing zero overwatch - and then when you roll the distance see what you can reach. "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge" - so you have free reign to daisy chain all over the place, exploit Pile In, burn off 3CP to really get in there - remember,if your initial charge distance was good, you can have half your unit zoom up to be 1.1" in front of a load of support units, and then you are OBLIGED to pile into them, EVEN IF you didn't charge them, COMPLETELY IGNORING their two dozen flamers. On top of that, if you are 1.3" in front of a Leman Russ, you can pile in sideways so that you are 1.2" in front of it, and then do the same with your after attacks pile in, so that your Fury of Khorne stratagem lets you sidestep again to 1.1" away from it, and then again to 1" - and also 1" away from a Company Commander. Wham, even on a snake eyes charge you've moved 26", entangling a mass of enemy units into melee. Unless you're facing Ultramarines, that's a hell of a lot of disruption - and even then, they're a nuisance.
...or, you might fail to cast Warptime. Still, nice trick for Magnus
Feel like I need to read that 3x to fully get it and its going to get better every time. Warptime, plus jump pack, screening units can suck a **** love it
Aye, take two detachments: a WE detachment filled with berzerkers, terminators and any other cc unit you want to take and a NL/AL/etc. detachment filled with sorcerers, cultist blobs and ranged support units. Supported WE detachments hit like a ton of bricks and keep going.
I feel like EC noise marines might be some of the best troops in the game now. In fact the chaos book in general seems so strong compared to the other codexes so far.
jcd386 wrote: I feel like EC noise marines might be some of the best troops in the game now. In fact the chaos book in general seems so strong compared to the other codexes so far.
I agree, noise marines are really strong since they are so versatile they're good enough at shoting to sit back and shot, good enough at combat to potentially fend off assault units and if need be they are fast enough to run down the board due to there weapons being assault.
Noise Marines I think might be my favorite unit right now. The amount of damage I can do with is insane. Blastmasters are missile launchers but hyped up. Sonic blasters put out tons of damage. They are mean in close combat. And even in death they break units. I wish I had more actually converted, it is just expensive.
Anyone try out the Possessed since the upgrade in an actual game? I really want to try them in a land raider with apostle+exalted champion support.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)
I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.
Viable now? They hit the ground running in this edition.
Surprising access to DTW coverage, and if Magnus the Red casts 2D6mw Smite on a 14, you can burn a CP to DTW on a 4+. Throw in Karanak and some Hounds and you don't need to worry too much about psykers.
You can take a thoroughly solid firebase, with Havocs and Predators re-rolling 1's to hit and the infantry gaining a 1+ save in Ruins.
You can fire your Land Raider's lascannons on the hoof.
Axe of Blind Rage Juggerlord is still formidable. Khârn is a brutal beatstick and it's not hard to stage manage a melee so that he gives his buffs to comrades and then they get out of the way before Gorechild starts swinging.
Plasma Terminators and Chosen got a massive boost with perfectly safe low power, awesome overcharge that may as well be made for hunting tanks, termies and Primaris, and common access to re-rolls. Without access to Warptime for close range shots, combi plasma is better than melta.
You can always attempt to charge out of your Dreadclaws and Kharybdis, which have also gotten even scarier.
Not only can your Dark Apostles buff your butchers, you also get to buff your wound rolls with Exalted Champions - and you're not obliged to have the back of the conga line creep away from their aura radius.
The Pile In and Consolidate rules can be stage-managed to enable a unit to extend its reach by up to 18" (in exceptional circumstances - nonetheless you can feasibly get a unit to push in hard and deep to disrupt the enemy army).
Nothing wrong with Daemon Princes, now they can't be easily sniped.
Chainaxes are excellent, easily worth the paltry point and easily better than a bolt pistol in nearly all circumstances.
You can take forty Cultists, get 39 of them killed, and then have the whole lot reappear behind the enemy army. Next turn, they charge with 3A each.
Nothing wrong with Possessed, now - if you want to try jumping out a Dreadclaw and then next turn Summoning something tasty, they'll put 18W in front of a character. If there's no Plasma around, that's a lot to chew through.
By the way, WRT your building plan - whilst the Berzerkers kit is antique, IMO it mixes *really* well with Calth marines.
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Mazzyx wrote: Noise Marines I think might be my favorite unit right now. The amount of damage I can do with is insane. Blastmasters are missile launchers but hyped up. Sonic blasters put out tons of damage. They are mean in close combat. And even in death they break units. I wish I had more actually converted, it is just expensive.
Anyone try out the Possessed since the upgrade in an actual game? I really want to try them in a land raider with apostle+exalted champion support.
I'm looking forward to trying it, this was my go-to unit in 7ed, unfortunately now I suspect their unreliable number of attacks means setting aside a CP for them if you want them to charge. Honestly, I think their likely use now is as 2W 5++ models that take up a single transport slot, have an elevated threat radius, and can be given endurance-boosting buffs. They cannot be overlooked and should take a lot of firepower to put down. Renegades can field them as a horde and terrify any screen that's not Conscript cheese or green tide - and even then, they'll get some chomping done and take some pounding, especially with endurance buffs.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)
I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.
Viable now? They hit the ground running in this edition.
Surprising access to DTW coverage, and if Magnus the Red casts 2D6mw Smite on a 14, you can burn a CP to DTW on a 4+. Throw in Karanak and some Hounds and you don't need to worry too much about psykers.
You can take a thoroughly solid firebase, with Havocs and Predators re-rolling 1's to hit and the infantry gaining a 1+ save in Ruins.
You can fire your Land Raider's lascannons on the hoof.
Axe of Blind Rage Juggerlord is still formidable. Khârn is a brutal beatstick and it's not hard to stage manage a melee so that he gives his buffs to comrades and then they get out of the way before Gorechild starts swinging.
Plasma Terminators and Chosen got a massive boost with perfectly safe low power, awesome overcharge that may as well be made for hunting tanks, termies and Primaris, and common access to re-rolls. Without access to Warptime for close range shots, combi plasma is better than melta.
You can always attempt to charge out of your Dreadclaws and Kharybdis, which have also gotten even scarier.
Not only can your Dark Apostles buff your butchers, you also get to buff your wound rolls with Exalted Champions - and you're not obliged to have the back of the conga line creep away from their aura radius.
The Pile In and Consolidate rules can be stage-managed to enable a unit to extend its reach by up to 18" (in exceptional circumstances - nonetheless you can feasibly get a unit to push in hard and deep to disrupt the enemy army).
Nothing wrong with Daemon Princes, now they can't be easily sniped.
Chainaxes are excellent, easily worth the paltry point and easily better than a bolt pistol in nearly all circumstances.
You can take forty Cultists, get 39 of them killed, and then have the whole lot reappear behind the enemy army. Next turn, they charge with 3A each.
Nothing wrong with Possessed, now - if you want to try jumping out a Dreadclaw and then next turn Summoning something tasty, they'll put 18W in front of a character. If there's no Plasma around, that's a lot to chew through.
By the way, WRT your building plan - whilst the Berzerkers kit is antique, IMO it mixes *really* well with Calth marines.
Ive got the 30k boxset marines, planning on some forgeworld upgrades for helmet and shoulder pads as it happens and yes a mate told me to get the old kit for the poses.
But that is literally all I have. I really quite like the idea of warp talons and warp time idea, raptors for a DS dirty melta strike kharn and exalted for rerolling hits and wounds in a rhino...that is as far as I've got.
I've just noticed that FLY does not specifically affect MOVEMENT PHASE moves.
This is MASSIVE for Raptors and Warp Talons doing deep insertion attacks.
Their charges have to:
- get the first model that moves within 1" of a unit you declared the charge on
- maintain coherency
- not get within 1" of an enemy they didn't charge
- land on a space they're allowed to occupy
- erm...
- that's it
If you warptimed into the face of a DS screen, and roll well for your charge, you can jump over their heads and backstab them for deeper insertion, or alternatively IGNORE THEM ALTOGETHER and jump over the intervening wall to get slapping the Devastators who couldn't see you.
But wait! There's more!
The restriction on getting within 1" of non-charged foes does not apply to the 3" pile-in moves. Which are moves. And what does FLY mean?
If you can make it so that the BACK of your base is within 3" of the BACK of your dueling partner's base, and you are not touching them, you can use a pile-in move to JUMP OVER THEIR HEAD like a freaking Solitaire. You ended your pile-in closer to the nearest enemy! Do it with half your squad, and you've trapped a non-FLY unit so it can't run off and expose you to shooting! If there's a unit 2.25" behind the unit you're fighting? Congratulations, you just tagged it and now it's gonna forfeit it's next shooting phase, and didn't even get to shoot you when you declared that charge. You can't punch it right now, but who cares? You just poked a Land Raider in the eye and all it can do about your approaching Helbrute is run away!
Oh, you did this with Warp Talons who arrived this turn? NOBODY got to Overwatch you. At all.
But that's not all! There's more! You're not Warp Talons who arrived this turn, and Aggressors are goading you with their dozen D6 of autohits? Get into position 8.1" away. Declare charges on them and a closer, proximate unit with mediocre OW. You can see where this is going, right?
Spoiler:
SNIKTY-SNIKT, CORPSE LOVERS
Can't get far enough away, and absolutely must neutralise them? Declare on another proximate unit, jump over the Aggressors' heads, and then pile into them. You've got an endurance spell on you or at the very least your 5++, so they're not going to do an awful lot with their power fists, and they're losing their shooting whatever happens. That's one way to check this formidable DS/horde deterrent. In fact, if you had another fairly big unit charge nearby, they could also mob up around the Aggs and prevent them from falling back, and start pushing them over in their turn. As long as they're not getting 12D6 auto hits, job's a good 'un.
Oh, you got a Fiend into one of the units you engaged and it survived the turn? They can't run away, and your troll unit can't be shot at at all.
Ha. 6 of those on my desk will feature prominently. Thinking the claws from the Vanguard set painted in badly battered ultramarine colors. Outfitted by tearing them from dead XIII Legion fools. For Monarchia!
While daemon princes are now much better than lords, there is one function to a lord. You can take a lord on a jump pack who can now deep strike in while you can't teleport in a prince.
So, you can give that lord's reroll 1 to hit aura exactly where you want, even up the field when you play a jump pack lord (and its just 93 points), whereas for the flying Daemon prince you have to fly it up the board, and it costs at least double that of the jump pack lord.
Each are great in their own way. Once you play a flying daemon prince, you need an escort of fodder around it as it flies its way up the board, even if its just one or two squads of cultists who are advancing up the field with it. This may change your entire army's composition substantially. (because what if you were playing a shooty army or a deep strike army).
Emperor's children princes are just strictly better chaos daemon slaanesh daemon princes which is quite funny. Though I suppose this will change once chaos daemons get there own codex.
this update changes everything for me. I've always loved lucius and the emperor's children, and had been trying to work an effective list with noise marines and lucius while still being competitive, and now I can with a lot more flexibility.
I'm thinking of running my biker sorcerer with some bikers supporting a winged prince, 9 s10 attacks on the move... already sounds fun
And guys what do you think about plague marines going into cc? Their new flail of corruption with overflowing dmg seems to be really nice. It's nice to remove chaff and also it can basically one hit Terminators
Hmm, they'd actually be pretty solid I reckon. Give two guys the flails and then give the rest of the unit bubotic axes and they'll do quite a lot of damage. Chosen with power axes do similar amounts of damage but don't have the extra toughness or Disgustingly Resilient of the Plague Marines.
saint_red wrote: Hmm, they'd actually be pretty solid I reckon. Give two guys the flails and then give the rest of the unit bubotic axes and they'll do quite a lot of damage. Chosen with power axes do similar amounts of damage but don't have the extra toughness or Disgustingly Resilient of the Plague Marines.
If the guys with flail take axe as well they have one more attack. I think they look pretty solid in eg NL with icon of despair. Unit of 5 plague marines with 5 axes and 2 flails is 145 points. 155 with icon.
Mazzyx wrote: Noise Marines I think might be my favorite unit right now. The amount of damage I can do with is insane. Blastmasters are missile launchers but hyped up. Sonic blasters put out tons of damage. They are mean in close combat. And even in death they break units. I wish I had more actually converted, it is just expensive.
Anyone try out the Possessed since the upgrade in an actual game? I really want to try them in a land raider with apostle+exalted champion support.
Yes the apostle+exalted champion combo would be good to try out. Pity landraiders are so expensive and can only hold ten
Gearing up for a tournament this coming weekend, my Night Lords list has developed a strong core I think, but I've got 220 points left to spend, which leaves me wondering, what are our best supporting units?
Rough List:
Demon Prince, MoT, Talons
Lord with Jump Pack, MoT, Claws of the Black Hunt
Socerer W/Jump Pack
Sorcerer on bike
3 units of 10 cultists
5 Slaanesh Terminators w Combi Plasma and Power Fists
15 Raptors with mark of Khorne (3 plasma pistols)
5 Raptors with Mark of Slaanesh (2 Multi-Melta, 1x Combi Melta)
5 Bikers w/MoN, 2 Multi-Meltas, 1x Combi Melta, Icon of Despair
5x Warp Talons w/MoK 1x Chaos Spawn
1x Chaos Spawn
1780 points.
So I'm wondering, should I take some obliterators for added firepower? Maybe a Heldrake to deal with opposing flyers? A predator with lots of Lascannons? I've got 8 command points, and Marks stacked throughout so that I can buff the units that might be having a hard time.
Or maybe my beloved contemptor.... haha, it's a hard choice!
With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.
One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....
saint_red wrote: Hmm, they'd actually be pretty solid I reckon. Give two guys the flails and then give the rest of the unit bubotic axes and they'll do quite a lot of damage. Chosen with power axes do similar amounts of damage but don't have the extra toughness or Disgustingly Resilient of the Plague Marines.
If the guys with flail take axe as well they have one more attack. I think they look pretty solid in eg NL with icon of despair. Unit of 5 plague marines with 5 axes and 2 flails is 145 points. 155 with icon.
The flail doesn't benefit from extra attacks. You get d3 attacks instead of normal attacks, not d3 per attack.
Bluthusten wrote: You guys think the following* is "good" enough to field on tournaments? I love my noise Marines, but are they worth taking in a Black Legion?
*
5 Noisemarines, 3 Sonicblaster, 1 Bass, Champ with Siren
5 Noisemarines, 3 Sonicblaster, 1 Bass, Champ with SIren
all together in a Rhino
I don't think it is worth giving them a rhino, they are more than happy to foot slog, also weirdly slaanesh units that are oriented towards shooting prefer to be in big squads since it lets them take full advantage of endless cacophony.
You only get +1 attack with double knives, knife + axe or mace + axe. The flail is still worth it at only 10 points and is basically the equivalent of 2, 4 or 6 attacks depending on what you roll on the D3.
If I were to run a unit of Plagues I'd probably take 9 of them in a Rhino with a Sorcerer to throw miasma of pestilence and prescience on them. Once they get stuck in it'll take a lot of work to get rid of them. For reference, a unit of 5 terminators with power axes are only killing 1 guy per turn.
With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.
One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....
My plan is currently a Renegade Detachment with Daemon Prince and Bikes and Raptors with 2x flamer 1x Combi Flamer.
An Alpha Legion Firebase of Rapiers Havocs and Sorceror
Finally an Iron Warriors Detachment with Nurgle Sorceror with Miasma for the Alpha heavies and the Morale Trait, Cultists (To fill in deployment around the Alpha Legion and come back in a Tide of Traitors) Combi Plas Slaanesh Terms, Berserkers in a Rhino and a Contemptor.
Gonna have to run things cheap but seems promising.
With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.
One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....
My plan is currently a Renegade Detachment with Daemon Prince and Bikes and Raptors with 2x flamer 1x Combi Flamer.
An Alpha Legion Firebase of Rapiers Havocs and Sorceror
Finally an Iron Warriors Detachment with unupgraded Lord with Morale Trait, Cultists (To fill in deployment around the Alpha Legion and come back in a Tide of Traitors) Combi Plas Slaanesh Terms, Berserkers in a Rhino and a Contemptor.
Gonna have to run things cheap but seems promising.
Are there some ideas to build the weapons? Cause at the moment we have no models for our melee options :/
Im gonna play 7. 4x axe+knife, 2 flails, 1 champ with fist. Together with a Sorcerer and maybe a Apostle with black mace in a Rhino
With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.
One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....
My plan is currently a Renegade Detachment with Daemon Prince and Bikes and Raptors with 2x flamer 1x Combi Flamer.
An Alpha Legion Firebase of Rapiers Havocs and Sorceror
Finally an Iron Warriors Detachment with unupgraded Lord with Morale Trait, Cultists (To fill in deployment around the Alpha Legion and come back in a Tide of Traitors) Combi Plas Slaanesh Terms, Berserkers in a Rhino and a Contemptor.
Gonna have to run things cheap but seems promising.
Are there some ideas to build the weapons? Cause at the moment we have no models for our melee options :/
Im gonna play 7. 4x axe+knife, 2 flails, 1 champ with fist. Together with a Sorcerer and maybe a Apostle with black mace in a Rhino
New Death Guard are getting released very soon, likely with a new Plague Marine multi-part kit.
With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.
One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....
Ran something similar to this the other day, minus warp talons. Bikes are indeed very fast and very hitty. I was running them as Nurgle, and casting Miasma of Pestilence on them for a -1 to hit made them every nastier. Only ended up losing one biker out a squad of 6 by the end of the game.
Raptors are something I'm working on learning how to use properly. Much success with Melta-kill teams, next scheme is 15 of them with MoK so I can double attack with them if need be. Zerkers just don't seem to fit my style of play, I have trouble driving them home.
Arkaine wrote: Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.
You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.
So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.
I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.
That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.
Arkaine wrote: Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.
You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.
So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.
I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.
That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.
You take them in a separate detachment so you get to generate an extra +3 CP.
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Gearing up for a tournament this coming weekend, my Night Lords list has developed a strong core I think, but I've got 220 points left to spend, which leaves me wondering, what are our best supporting units?
Rough List:
Demon Prince, MoT, Talons
Lord with Jump Pack, MoT, Claws of the Black Hunt
Socerer W/Jump Pack
Sorcerer on bike
3 units of 10 cultists
5 Slaanesh Terminators w Combi Plasma and Power Fists
15 Raptors with mark of Khorne (3 plasma pistols)
5 Raptors with Mark of Slaanesh (2 Multi-Melta, 1x Combi Melta)
5 Bikers w/MoN, 2 Multi-Meltas, 1x Combi Melta, Icon of Despair
5x Warp Talons w/MoK 1x Chaos Spawn
1x Chaos Spawn
1780 points.
So I'm wondering, should I take some obliterators for added firepower? Maybe a Heldrake to deal with opposing flyers? A predator with lots of Lascannons? I've got 8 command points, and Marks stacked throughout so that I can buff the units that might be having a hard time.
Or maybe my beloved contemptor.... haha, it's a hard choice!
This question definitely belongs in army lists forum. I personally love what Laspreds can do right now, but Defilers are actually pretty useful again, and I have seen some good things with Forgefiends with prescience / warp time / Daemonforge. Don't limit yourself.
Well, if you don't really want Cultists or Horrors, but do want a Battalion, and you're planning on bringing along non-CSMHQs like Ahriman or Malefic Lords, I could see bringing Troops Noise Marines.
With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.
One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....
My plan is currently a Renegade Detachment with Daemon Prince and Bikes and Raptors with 2x flamer 1x Combi Flamer.
An Alpha Legion Firebase of Rapiers Havocs and Sorceror
Finally an Iron Warriors Detachment with unupgraded Lord with Morale Trait, Cultists (To fill in deployment around the Alpha Legion and come back in a Tide of Traitors) Combi Plas Slaanesh Terms, Berserkers in a Rhino and a Contemptor.
Gonna have to run things cheap but seems promising.
Are there some ideas to build the weapons? Cause at the moment we have no models for our melee options :/
Im gonna play 7. 4x axe+knife, 2 flails, 1 champ with fist. Together with a Sorcerer and maybe a Apostle with black mace in a Rhino
New Death Guard are getting released very soon, likely with a new Plague Marine multi-part kit.
is there a release date ? Can't find something on the internet :/
Arkaine wrote: Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.
You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.
So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.
I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.
That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.
So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.
Arkaine wrote: Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.
You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.
So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.
I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.
That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.
So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.
Malefic lords are chaos space marines ? won't we lose objective secured because they aren't the same sub faction.
Arkaine wrote: Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.
You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.
So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.
I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.
That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.
So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.
Malefic lords are chaos space marines ? won't we lose objective secured because they aren't the same sub faction.
Ah, yeah, not obsec. Still cheapish battalions for command points. Thanks for the correction, I got ahead of myself. Still good, and one could replace the lords with apostles or exaulted champs to get obsec, if one has the points. Still pretty good. What would be better for zerkers, +1 hitting or wounding?
Kajaki War Pig wrote: Gearing up for a tournament this coming weekend, my Night Lords list has developed a strong core I think, but I've got 220 points left to spend, which leaves me wondering, what are our best supporting units?
Rough List:
Demon Prince, MoT, Talons
Lord with Jump Pack, MoT, Claws of the Black Hunt
Socerer W/Jump Pack
Sorcerer on bike
3 units of 10 cultists
5 Slaanesh Terminators w Combi Plasma and Power Fists
15 Raptors with mark of Khorne (3 plasma pistols)
5 Raptors with Mark of Slaanesh (2 Multi-Melta, 1x Combi Melta)
5 Bikers w/MoN, 2 Multi-Meltas, 1x Combi Melta, Icon of Despair
5x Warp Talons w/MoK 1x Chaos Spawn
1x Chaos Spawn
1780 points.
So I'm wondering, should I take some obliterators for added firepower? Maybe a Heldrake to deal with opposing flyers? A predator with lots of Lascannons? I've got 8 command points, and Marks stacked throughout so that I can buff the units that might be having a hard time.
Or maybe my beloved contemptor.... haha, it's a hard choice!
I think the more jump troops to impose the penalties on leadership, the better. I might suggest splitting the Raptors up and adding more to form a third unit? I love Night Lords.
Arkaine wrote: Black Legion specifically may not have any improvement but Chaos as a whole just went to bonkers levels.
You're not required to have an entire detachment of World Eaters or Emperor's Children to benefit from making them World Eaters or Emperor's Children.
So expect to see Troop Berzerkers and Troop Noise Marines in mixed CSM detachments too. Previously Berzerker Horde was an army rule. Now it's a unit ability.
I love how literally you read the rules. Every time I am wondering about how a rule is worded, there's Arkaine making the case for how it allows an absurd army list to happen. Until GW hires you as a proofreader, all of their books will be flawed.
That said - not sure who wants to give up +1 on the charge, fight first or other legion traits just to have these units as troops. Feels like it would make more sense to take them as elites.
So essentially, we can two three units of WE zerkers/EC Noise Marines plus two Maleficent lords for cheap battalions with obsec troops. Nice.
Malefic lords are chaos space marines ? won't we lose objective secured because they aren't the same sub faction.
The way i'm reading it, none of this is possible. the eratta:
Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh
keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion,
and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle
keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children
Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World
Eaters Legion.’
Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World Eaters
Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.’
Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of
Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead
of Elites.’
and on page 156, end of 1st paragraph "A Chaos Space Marines Detachment is therefore which includes units with one of these keywords"
I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.
That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).
Why the Warp did they use this convoluted term of phrase that's open to argument instead of just using HERETIC ASTARTES? Oh, no, DG or TS might have early access to DotG and Stratagems via application of common sense, quick, close the door on easy expansion for extra factions like the Crimson Slaughter we previously tried to make happen
SilverAlien wrote: I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.
That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).
It wasn't so much what changed from the index, so much as what I thought it would be. My thoughts were in order to get troops, one would have to have a detatchment of the same Legion. I think it is coming from the old edition. What changed was instead of running an elites detatchment, you can run a troops one, in other words, two more command points. Batallion vs. vanguard (or whatever they call the elites one).
Yes, but all Chaos cult troops will inevitably have a same keyword, "chaos". You don't have to "pick" one, the units just have them, and all units need to share at least one.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.
That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).
Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.
however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 156 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments
SilverAlien wrote: I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.
That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).
Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.
however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 116 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments
I don't think so. Because the rule for troops is in the unit, all you need to do is make the unit a specific faction. One detatchment under chaos can have two malific sorcerers, two units of Noise Marines and one unit of zerkers, and the NM and zerkers are still troops. All you need to do is give them their respective Legion keyword. Heck, you could even do it with two daemon heralds as hqs.
Not sure how the errata effects sorcerers on bikes as it makes no mention of them. They are allowed via a post GW made on their community page though.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.
That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).
Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.
however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 116 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments
I don't think so. Because the rule for troops is in the unit, all you need to do is make the unit a specific faction. One detatchment under chaos can have two malific sorcerers, two units of Noise Marines and one unit of zerkers, and the NM and zerkers are still troops. All you need to do is give them their respective Legion keyword. Heck, you could even do it with two daemon heralds as hqs.
Not sure how the errata effects sorcerers on bikes as it makes no mention of them. They are allowed via a post GW made on their community page though.
page 156, not 116. it specifically states a detachment can contain only one of the <legion> keywords. and eratta makes berserkers illegal in a EC legion detachment, and noise marines illegal in a WE legion detachments. you can't mix and match legion traits/keywords within a detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorcerer is pointless to current discussion, just making the point that i don't have any other resources for units
SilverAlien wrote: I'm not sure what people thought changed. You could always run a detachment as EC and get noise marine troops in it, then run another as WE for zerker troops, in a single army. They always changed to troops based on the keyword assigned to them not as a bonus for having a WE/EC army or even detachment. The only thing that changed is legion traits make running zerkers and noise marines both as troops in a single detachment less appealing.
That being said, I fully expect EC/WE (and later tsons and DG) to be used as the battalion for many CSM armies. It's a attractive option for those who want to stay away from cultists as troops (and normal CSM squads are still pointless).
Well i just returned from leaving 4th edition, where all 4 where troops and i had my army built with berserkers and noise marines as the troops. chaos codex is the only 8th edition material i have to go on for the new rules, with a picture of sorcerer on bike from the index so i have the stats for a previously converted model. In the codex, it doesn't list them as troops in any aspect at all. the eratta changes this, allowing me to effectively use my forces the way they're meant to be used without buying a load of cultists.
however, you cant run berserkers when noise marines are troops in a detachment, and vice versa. page 116 of the codex covers (and the eratta clarifies) this, a detachment may inlcude only 1 of the faction keywords (EC, WE, WB, BL, NL, AL, IW and renegade chapters). so to run both with one or both as troops, you need multiple detachments
I don't think so. Because the rule for troops is in the unit, all you need to do is make the unit a specific faction. One detatchment under chaos can have two malific sorcerers, two units of Noise Marines and one unit of zerkers, and the NM and zerkers are still troops. All you need to do is give them their respective Legion keyword. Heck, you could even do it with two daemon heralds as hqs.
Not sure how the errata effects sorcerers on bikes as it makes no mention of them. They are allowed via a post GW made on their community page though.
You are correct, the units in that detachment just do not get their specific 'Legion Trait'. You only gain that bonus if everything in a detachment is from the same legion.
If you want just We or just EC detatchments to get Legion traits, yes. Nothing is stopping you from making a <chaos> detatchment with both as troops. They wouldn't get obsec or Legion traits, but they would get the sweet, sweet CPs.
the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?
So not sure if this has been pointed out but VotLW and Flames of Spite warlord traits on models with a high number of attacks can be very devastating. Espically when paired with The Black Mace which can net you more kills.
156 is detailing the rules for a "chaos marine detachment," not legal detachments in general. Qualifying as a CSM detachment gives you traits and obsec, etc, but you can still take a detachment with mixed legions or chaos units in general.
With Warp Talons being ludicrously good, I'm sure there could be some mileage over dropping in talons and raptors shooting bikes up the board since they are so fast and following up with some rhinos with zerkers inside.
One hell of a choppy fast moving army. No screens to protect the rhinos though....
Bikes should be ok now with the points drop. They are a shooty platform, not really meant for close combat. You waste a lot of their shooting if you try and charge into CC, unless you can kill off your opponent and not get countercharged in the next turn. I think Rhinos themselves are already a screen to protect the infantry inside. Once you popped smoke on Rhinos, they are -1 to hit. If opponent still wants to shoot a T7, 3+, 10 wound transport with a -1 to hit, I think you should be more than happy to let them. So I don't really think Rhinos need a screen.
re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?
thundertau wrote: the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?
It just wouldn't be a CSM detachment. You could have it be a generic chaos detachment instead. It is a weird rule though.
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thundertau wrote: re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?
You'd lose all the unique stuff from the codex, including obsec and traits/relics/tactics. In return, you'd be able to mix in demons as well as mix legions, though there isn't much point beyond having cult troops. Even that's just for cp as they don't gain any other benefit for being troops. So in practice I doubt anyone will but you still can do so.
What are players thoughts on heldrakes in 8th? Gaming experience hasn't been that great so far as despite attracting a lot of fire they don't have much damage output either from the flamer or CC.
For approximately the same point cost I could take a winged prince or a decimator with a soul burner and either seem like a superior choice.
buddha wrote: What are players thoughts on heldrakes in 8th? Gaming experience hasn't been that great so far as despite attracting a lot of fire they don't have much damage output either from the flamer or CC.
For approximately the same point cost I could take a winged prince or a decimator with a soul burner and either seem like a superior choice.
Perhaps just using wrong?
its the 30 inch charge and ability to hold up a high value unit that makes the screamin eagle of chaos interesting. Sometimes an enemy will have units that rely heavily on their alpha ability and keeping a key unit or two from doing it is pretty cool. So all in all, while it does strike me as somewhat...less...than it used to be, it has utilty in this way, no matter its damage output.
scommy wrote: Ehh in Battlescribe I cannot give Obliterators mark of Slaanesh, what gives? Oh nvm - I checked they are not infantry or biker anyways......
Are oblits worth it dropping in with a lord for the 1 rerolls? Anyone tried them?
Oblits are infantry in the codex unless this was FAQed
P.S. my updated version of battlescribe has not updated all point totals - plagues are still 8 points and abaddon is 253 or whatever. Just an FYI. Maybe I am having patch issues...
If your opponent is dumb enough not to use any sort of screen whatsoever, the Heldrake can conceivably charge a unit to impact it's shooting...and then probably fail to kill anything. If you want it to accomplish anything beyond that, or your opponent is competent enough to screen off important units, it's a waste of 185 points. Speaking from experience, not just negative theory-crafting. The movement speed is great, but it's overpriced--either needs to be a good bit cheaper still, more durable, or have more attacks so it can actually inflict some damage.
After all the time I spent painting and converting mine, I certainly wish they were better.
thundertau wrote: the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?
It just wouldn't be a CSM detachment. You could have it be a generic chaos detachment instead. It is a weird rule though.
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thundertau wrote: re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?
You'd lose all the unique stuff from the codex, including obsec and traits/relics/tactics. In return, you'd be able to mix in demons as well as mix legions, though there isn't much point beyond having cult troops. Even that's just for cp as they don't gain any other benefit for being troops. So in practice I doubt anyone will but you still can do so.
See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:
Black Legion DP Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists
all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).
I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.
scommy wrote: Ehh in Battlescribe I cannot give Obliterators mark of Slaanesh, what gives? Oh nvm - I checked they are not infantry or biker anyways......
Are oblits worth it dropping in with a lord for the 1 rerolls? Anyone tried them?
Oblits are infantry in the codex unless this was FAQed
P.S. my updated version of battlescribe has not updated all point totals - plagues are still 8 points and abaddon is 253 or whatever. Just an FYI. Maybe I am having patch issues...
Oh yes your correct lol Thanks! I need to read codex closer. And in the codex it says <Mark of Chaos> under Oblits so you can use the stratagem. Looks well worth trying out to me. Dunno why Battlescribe does not allow it.
Ugh, tell me about it, flyers in general seem to have been nerfed if you don't drink the Terran kool-aid - I loved my Hell Blade that's now had its accuracy and fire rate kicked in. Strongly considering whipping off the hellstorm cannons for lascannons.
I'm building a Hell Talon that's been waiting to be made for a few months, so I can field a flyer wing for an upcoming big battle, but the likely use of this giant target... yeah, great, once per battle I can pop a mortal wound on a Knight and give it a -1 to hit for a turn, then pay 2CP to reload the bombs. That's definitely worth 12 power.
But to get back to Heldrakes, yeah, +2W & regen & four ok melee attacks don't compare to the loyalists getting two assault cannons, AND two sawnoff lascannons, AND a typhoon ML, AND airborne, AND hard to hit. Oh, yes, and we get 5++ on our flyers, but that's only going to help against anti-tank weapons, which are probably going to be aiming at other stuff and leaving anti-air to autocannon type stuff that doesn't care about 5++. I'm glad this battle's going to be a narrative one, because I'm going to have to take a sledgehammer to the Summoning piñata to make up for this points sink of a trio.
See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:
Black Legion DP Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists
all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).
I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.
Yeah that's not even a valid rules loophole IMO. Obviously they mean one of the same keyword. "Chaos" isn't a valid option, and they can't all have one if they all have different ones. That's just a failure to read the English language to assume that "all have one of the same" means "all have any keyword". Would literally mean nothing if it meant the latter.
Just be happy that WE zerkers are for sure troops and EC noise marines are for sure troops. No malefic lords as HQs in those detachments if you want obsec.
Chaos has more than enough tools at their disposal without convoluting rules like that.
Try out a Maulerfiend. Amazing.
Oblits, shooting twice
Alpha legion zerkers, fighting thrice
Malefic lords, actually unfairly undercosted
Bloat drones
Magnus....no need to harp on him any more. Grab a changeling for some cheap force multiplication & 3 CP at bargain basement prices. Profit
There are index armies that simply can't deal with those types of units. Don't waste time on cheap tricks
See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:
Black Legion DP Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists
all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).
I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.
Yeah that's not even a valid rules loophole IMO. Obviously they mean one of the same keyword. "Chaos" isn't a valid option, and they can't all have one if they all have different ones. That's just a failure to read the English language to assume that "all have one of the same" means "all have any keyword". Would literally mean nothing if it meant the latter.
Just be happy that WE zerkers are for sure troops and EC noise marines are for sure troops. No malefic lords as HQs in those detachments if you want obsec.
Chaos has more than enough tools at their disposal without convoluting rules like that.
Try out a Maulerfiend. Amazing.
Oblits, shooting twice
Alpha legion zerkers, fighting thrice
Malefic lords, actually unfairly undercosted
Bloat drones
Magnus....no need to harp on him any more. Grab a changeling for some cheap force multiplication & 3 CP at bargain basement prices. Profit
There are index armies that simply can't deal with those types of units. Don't waste time on cheap tricks
Has there been an update on the rules? Because page 240 of the rulebook, which explains how factions works, suggests that only one faction keyword needs to match. I haven't read anything to suggest units in a detatchment need to match all keywords. So im not sure if lindsay40k's example isnt legal.
Well hang on, I'm not holding up 'Chaos' (or even 'Heretic Astartes') as the keyword in question. I'm working from:
"A CSM detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords"
'These' in the passage refers solely to the LEGION Keywords within the Codex. 'Alpha Legion' is one of these keywords. 'World Eaters' is one of these keywords. And so on. A case can easily be made that a multi-Legion Black Crusade can be represented by a single, diverse, detachment that is made up of Heretic Astartes who each have one of the LEGION keywords from the the Codex - which would not get Legion traits, but would get ObSec and Legion Stratagems & battlefield roles.
I'm not agreeing with the case or advocating for it or planning to cite it. (In fact, I'm kind of sore about Berzerker Troops, as I was quite relieved that I seemed to be clear to take a WE detachment of two zerks and a term squad with no cultist tax.) I'm saying that I don't think it can be dismissed based on the semantics we currently have to work with.
What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?
lindsay40k wrote: Well hang on, I'm not holding up 'Chaos' (or even 'Heretic Astartes') as the keyword in question. I'm working from:
"A CSM detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords"
'These' in the passage refers solely to the LEGION Keywords within the Codex. 'Alpha Legion' is one of these keywords. 'World Eaters' is one of these keywords. And so on. A case can easily be made that a multi-Legion Black Crusade can be represented by a single, diverse, detachment that is made up of Heretic Astartes who each have one of the LEGION keywords from the the Codex - which would not get Legion traits, but would get ObSec and Legion Stratagems & battlefield roles.
This seems correct.This is only relevant to despoilers of the galaxy (obsec) and unlocking CSM stratagems. I don't think the stratagems are then restricted for use in chaos marine detachments, only chaos marine units (Which could be in a mixed detachment)
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?
With the upgrade to two wounds and some of the stratagems like veterans of the long war and excessive violence(I am at work I think it is called that, the one with more attacks per model removed) I think possessed can be a nasty bomb to drop on an enemy as Emp Children. I have been wanting to run them instead of a zerker unit in my land raider but have been doing konor missions where I am always a defender in the back not attacking things.
Also DPs are just nuts with Slaanesh/EC. Always strike first except if they get charged and the opponent chooses the charger first. I ran mine last time with an elixir, the wound and 6+++ warlord trait, duel talons, and diabolic strength as his spell. He was a blender.
Yeah that's not even a valid rules loophole IMO. Obviously they mean one of the same keyword. "Chaos" isn't a valid option, and they can't all have one if they all have different ones. That's just a failure to read the English language to assume that "all have one of the same" means "all have any keyword". Would literally mean nothing if it meant the latter.
No, it would not be meaningless. The rule states:
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords."
The book provides a list of what the keywords are. It declares that all units in a detachment must have one of these keywords. What the book does not say is:
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords, each possessing the same Legion keyword.." If it did, I would agree with your interpretation. But otherwise - this is a matter of basic set theory. The book provides a set, the rules state you must pick an item from the set for each unit, and that the units must be organized into a detachment. It says nothing about each unit needing to have the same Legion keyword.
Further, the book goes on to say: "If your army is Battle-forged, all Infantry, Bikers, and Helbrute units in Chaos Spare Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion."
GW is making a specific allowance for mixing Legions within a detachment, and explaining what the penalty is for doing so. So let's not twist around the rules and claim other people don't know how to read, the topic is discussed about 150 words later.
It's perfectly legal to have a detachment featuring an Alpha Legion sorcerer, a World Eaters Berzerker Squad and an Emperor's Children Noise Marine squad, happily fighting the slaves to the False Emperor side-by-side. Let's talk about the merits of a mixed Legion detachment instead, which I believe are outweighed by the drawbacks. Starting with the idea that Sonic Weapons melt bones, skulls are bones, and those Berzerkers are going to have an awful time creating a pile of skulls after the battle. The fact they don't get Legion traits is far outweighed by the concerns over fluff.
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?
With the upgrade to two wounds and some of the stratagems like veterans of the long war and excessive violence(I am at work I think it is called that, the one with more attacks per model removed) I think possessed can be a nasty bomb to drop on an enemy as Emp Children. I have been wanting to run them instead of a zerker unit in my land raider but have been doing konor missions where I am always a defender in the back not attacking things.
Also DPs are just nuts with Slaanesh/EC. Always strike first except if they get charged and the opponent chooses the charger first. I ran mine last time with an elixir, the wound and 6+++ warlord trait, duel talons, and diabolic strength as his spell. He was a blender.
Second this, the Slaaneshi psychic power looks to have excellent synergy with Possessed as well. Possibly our best option in plasma-rich metagames.
For punching cheap hordes, Noise Marines with Chainswords are like Chosen but with ObSec, a point cheaper, and the ability to take 20. And assuming you're taking a Dark Apostle, their lower Ld won't come back to bite you.
DreamIsCollapsing wrote: What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?
With the upgrade to two wounds and some of the stratagems like veterans of the long war and excessive violence(I am at work I think it is called that, the one with more attacks per model removed) I think possessed can be a nasty bomb to drop on an enemy as Emp Children. I have been wanting to run them instead of a zerker unit in my land raider but have been doing konor missions where I am always a defender in the back not attacking things.
Also DPs are just nuts with Slaanesh/EC. Always strike first except if they get charged and the opponent chooses the charger first. I ran mine last time with an elixir, the wound and 6+++ warlord trait, duel talons, and diabolic strength as his spell. He was a blender.
Second this, the Slaaneshi psychic power looks to have excellent synergy with Possessed as well. Possibly our best option in plasma-rich metagames.
For punching cheap hordes, Noise Marines with Chainswords are like Chosen but with ObSec, a point cheaper, and the ability to take 20. And assuming you're taking a Dark Apostle, their lower Ld won't come back to bite you.
This Saturday I was able to keep a unit of normal CSM alive through three rounds of combat with purestrain genestealers using the Slaanesh psychic power. It is fantastic and hard not to take on at least one psyker.
The big thing is if they're talking about legion keywords or any faction keywords, since they call both "faction" keywords.
I do believe that RAW you'll get obsec even with mixed legion detachments. I think it's even possible that it's intended, but that is something that certainly could use an FAQ. For me, it goes firmly in the category of "don't build an army around this until we get an FAQ"
How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.
saint_red wrote: How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.
saint_red wrote: How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.
At least 1 is on my to buy list. Maybe 2. I want them escorting a rhino full of possessed/zerkers with apostle/champ support. I figure that is a turn two line smash that will make most opponents cry.
saint_red wrote: How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.
I love them. Even at <25%, it's still 8 attacks with rerolls on to hits and to wounds if you didnt waste all your CP before. It shreds MEQs, TEQs.
Cast Diabolic Strength on it for maximum nastiness against those. If it is >25%, with DS, the tendrils even feth up Predator/Cybot-equivalents royally.
Someone said that the FWWE BLoodslaughterer or whatever is still better, but I dont intend to buy FW stuff.
Be sure to let us know how those melee PM do, I've been having a tough time deciding what loadout to go with my PM
The Bloodslaughterer is probably better than the Maulerfiend, but I plan on running one of each just for flavor (and because I cant afford a 2nd FW model right now!) They fill a similar role, but are different. I think the main thing that sets the BS above the fiend is its speed, but the fiend can benefit from the other gods psychic powers so its a bit of a toss up IMHO.
With Plague Marines, I've been thinking two Blight Launchers, two Bolters, two Flails, two Axes, and then something on the champ, and then one more guy to do something. My reasoning for keeping the Bolters is that the Flails will contribute enough attacks to help clear what's attacking them. That's just me though.
What I have been toying with so far (all in theory as I am waiting for DG codex before I commit to putting things together) is 7-man PM squads with 2 blight launchers, 2 flails, and a champ with PF and plaguesword. Seems like solid all around unit. Also debating on a unit or 2 of msu with triple plasma
Sokhar wrote: If your opponent is dumb enough not to use any sort of screen whatsoever, the Heldrake can conceivably charge a unit to impact it's shooting...and then probably fail to kill anything. If you want it to accomplish anything beyond that, or your opponent is competent enough to screen off important units, it's a waste of 185 points. Speaking from experience, not just negative theory-crafting. The movement speed is great, but it's overpriced--either needs to be a good bit cheaper still, more durable, or have more attacks so it can actually inflict some damage.
After all the time I spent painting and converting mine, I certainly wish they were better.
The good old "General worth his salt" argument.
So you're suggesting a screen for every unit? You're going to spend those points and then...you're going to rely on them not being gone when he charges? Im just asking. That seems like an awful lot of assuming there but...yes. That COULD happen.
Ultimately the Heldrake isn't AS good as before but its role has changed also. I think experimenting with it is worth it.
I dunno I used the Heldrake like twice before the codex even hit. I had a decent performance, and even though the Baleflamer isn't as good as it once was, it has no issues with firing arcs (making it infinitely more useable) and having a unit that can charge about anything is pretty awesome. I'm focused more on Loyalists at the moment, but I can tell you that, with the point drop, the Baledrake is still pretty awesome.
thundertau wrote: the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?
It just wouldn't be a CSM detachment. You could have it be a generic chaos detachment instead. It is a weird rule though.
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thundertau wrote: re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?
You'd lose all the unique stuff from the codex, including obsec and traits/relics/tactics. In return, you'd be able to mix in demons as well as mix legions, though there isn't much point beyond having cult troops. Even that's just for cp as they don't gain any other benefit for being troops. So in practice I doubt anyone will but you still can do so.
See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:
Black Legion DP Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists
all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).
I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.
ERRATA:
Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion, and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World Eater's Legion.’
20 Possessed (Alpha Legion) w/ Changeling, near a herald for +1 str and a Daemon Prince for rerolls feels pretty good in my head.
It's a thought I've been pondering a bit myself. Might be tempting to proxy, as I doubt almost anyone has the models to just pull that off their shelves. The only thing that gives me pause is that random attack value. Investing that many points into a unit to pull off a major charge and then have each Possessed only get a single attack would be kind of an issue. There is a tremendous amount of synergy that can be stacked on Possessed though--Alpha Legion with Changeling for a -2 to hit debuff, assuming you don't want to just infiltrate them forward for a turn 1 charge. Having a good armor save means they can take advantage of terrain unlike most daemon units, Weaver of Fates could push them to a 4++, Warp Time for a double move, lots of options all round.
20 Possessed (Alpha Legion) w/ Changeling, near a herald for +1 str and a Daemon Prince for rerolls feels pretty good in my head.
It's a thought I've been pondering a bit myself. Might be tempting to proxy, as I doubt almost anyone has the models to just pull that off their shelves. The only thing that gives me pause is that random attack value. Investing that many points into a unit to pull off a major charge and then have each Possessed only get a single attack would be kind of an issue. There is a tremendous amount of synergy that can be stacked on Possessed though--Alpha Legion with Changeling for a -2 to hit debuff, assuming you don't want to just infiltrate them forward for a turn 1 charge. Having a good armor save means they can take advantage of terrain unlike most daemon units, Weaver of Fates could push them to a 4++, Warp Time for a double move, lots of options all round.
Unless I'm missing something, as they're Tzeentch Daemons, you could also cast boon on them for a potential +1 STR/attacks/toughness depending on the roll.
So, I got a friend's army list which is a tough nut to crack. Maybe you guys can help me out. He plays imperium.
So, He has Azreal to give his fire base rerolls to hit and a 4++ invul. He brings a legionaire and an ancient as well. So, his fire base gets rerolls to wound and if any model in his fire base dies, on a 4+, it shoots one last time. He then crams 3 to 4 squads of devastators, and maybe even a hellblastor squad all around Azreal to get the benefit of all those auras. He then bubbles wraps it with 3 infantry squads, 2 comissars.
This fire base tends to out shoot any firebase I have because of a 4++, all those reroll to hit, rerolls to wound, and his devastators has cherubs and signum, plus that ancient giving them a noise marine like one last shot even when they die.
Also, on a counter charge, he has multiple characters all countercharging anyone trying to go into CC with his firebase.
He also has 3 assassins (one of each kind). Vindicare will be near the firebase, the other two will deep strike in for close CC. Now we get to his assault portion.
His assault portion has Celestine and her two bodyguards with one full 10 girl squad of seraphim (got 4 melta pistols). He also has scions deep striking in with plasma, and the two close combat assassins (one is anti psykar and the other is a CC monster who needs 6s to hit). He also has a librarian with jump pack.
So, all in all, his shooting is really strong, good counter attack, wrapped in a bubble. And his assault is deep strike and can be deadly too. (Celestine goes wherever she wants to go). I have tried deep striking warp talons and waprtiming them before. I hurt his firebase, but the warp talons all then got wiped out by his counter attack. His deep strike can be deadly too. And we know Celestine is a monster in CC. So, how should I fight such a list?
So I'm looking to make some Khorne Berserkers from AoS Blood Warriors and was wondering if the starter set ones will work or would it be better to just buy the 60 dollar 10 man unit
Honestly, I think AoS Blood Warriors would be pretty ok as Berserkers as-is. The melee weapons are more important than the pistols and it's pretty clear what they're supposed to be.
Half a year is being optimistic imo. There're only so many models they can release at once. The Death Guard models started being teased back in March and their regular kits aren't even out yet. It's more likely a year (or more) before we see any Khorne or Slaanesh models get released.
In another note, I was told the new codex contains changes to rubric marines, anyone who has a book can confirm/deny? (and send me a pic of the new slate if possible, as I understand from battlescribe the rules of if you can take a soulreaper are a bit weird? 1 at minimum fut the second only at 20?)
BoomWolf wrote: In another note, I was told the new codex contains changes to rubric marines, anyone who has a book can confirm/deny? (and send me a pic of the new slate if possible, as I understand from battlescribe the rules of if you can take a soulreaper are a bit weird? 1 at minimum fut the second only at 20?)
That is correct. One at min and another at 20. That is also weird to me...
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, I got a friend's army list which is a tough nut to crack. Maybe you guys can help me out. He plays imperium.
So, He has Azreal to give his fire base rerolls to hit and a 4++ invul. He brings a legionaire and an ancient as well. So, his fire base gets rerolls to wound and if any model in his fire base dies, on a 4+, it shoots one last time. He then crams 3 to 4 squads of devastators, and maybe even a hellblastor squad all around Azreal to get the benefit of all those auras. He then bubbles wraps it with 3 infantry squads, 2 comissars.
This fire base tends to out shoot any firebase I have because of a 4++, all those reroll to hit, rerolls to wound, and his devastators has cherubs and signum, plus that ancient giving them a noise marine like one last shot even when they die.
Also, on a counter charge, he has multiple characters all countercharging anyone trying to go into CC with his firebase.
He also has 3 assassins (one of each kind). Vindicare will be near the firebase, the other two will deep strike in for close CC. Now we get to his assault portion.
His assault portion has Celestine and her two bodyguards with one full 10 girl squad of seraphim (got 4 melta pistols). He also has scions deep striking in with plasma, and the two close combat assassins (one is anti psykar and the other is a CC monster who needs 6s to hit). He also has a librarian with jump pack.
So, all in all, his shooting is really strong, good counter attack, wrapped in a bubble. And his assault is deep strike and can be deadly too. (Celestine goes wherever she wants to go). I have tried deep striking warp talons and waprtiming them before. I hurt his firebase, but the warp talons all then got wiped out by his counter attack. His deep strike can be deadly too. And we know Celestine is a monster in CC. So, how should I fight such a list?
First up, quick check - he's not giving entire units 4++ for having one trooper within 6" of Azrael? It only applies to individual models.
Linebreaker would laugh at a densely packed firebase. Average of 4.5mw on each unit hit. If you can draw LOS to a point within 3" of Azrael or the Vindicare, you might get real lucky. Might be worth bringing a bunch of 34pt Marauder Sniper units.
Culexus Assassin is countered by a Flamer squad. Who cares about needing 6s to hit?
A large Possessed squad with multiple endurance buffs (AL trait or NL Stratagem, god specific powers) could be a useful thing to throw in there. Three are doable, albeit requiring heavy investment or proxying. Likewise Fiends; if you can keep them out of LOS, they're the bane of meatshields who think they can weather heavy casualties. A decent squad of zerks will take down fifty Conscripts if they're not allowed to run away, opening a path for more charges.
Msolve wrote: So I'm looking to make some Khorne Berserkers from AoS Blood Warriors and was wondering if the starter set ones will work or would it be better to just buy the 60 dollar 10 man unit
It depends on how serious you are about wysiwyg. I've actually been using boxes of Easy-to-Build Bloodreavers as the basis of mine as they're suspiciously close to my wysiwyg (each has an axe and a sword which is easy to turn into a chainsword).
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, I got a friend's army list which is a tough nut to crack. Maybe you guys can help me out. He plays imperium.
So, He has Azreal to give his fire base rerolls to hit and a 4++ invul. He brings a legionaire and an ancient as well. So, his fire base gets rerolls to wound and if any model in his fire base dies, on a 4+, it shoots one last time. He then crams 3 to 4 squads of devastators, and maybe even a hellblastor squad all around Azreal to get the benefit of all those auras. He then bubbles wraps it with 3 infantry squads, 2 comissars.
This fire base tends to out shoot any firebase I have because of a 4++, all those reroll to hit, rerolls to wound, and his devastators has cherubs and signum, plus that ancient giving them a noise marine like one last shot even when they die.
Also, on a counter charge, he has multiple characters all countercharging anyone trying to go into CC with his firebase.
He also has 3 assassins (one of each kind). Vindicare will be near the firebase, the other two will deep strike in for close CC. Now we get to his assault portion.
His assault portion has Celestine and her two bodyguards with one full 10 girl squad of seraphim (got 4 melta pistols). He also has scions deep striking in with plasma, and the two close combat assassins (one is anti psykar and the other is a CC monster who needs 6s to hit). He also has a librarian with jump pack.
So, all in all, his shooting is really strong, good counter attack, wrapped in a bubble. And his assault is deep strike and can be deadly too. (Celestine goes wherever she wants to go). I have tried deep striking warp talons and waprtiming them before. I hurt his firebase, but the warp talons all then got wiped out by his counter attack. His deep strike can be deadly too. And we know Celestine is a monster in CC. So, how should I fight such a list?
I agree with Lindsay that Linebreaker has potential, though it's risky in that if you only bring 3 Vindicators, and one dies, you're in trouble. But they're pretty cheap and Linebreaker can easily target something which is ~30" away from your central Vindicator.
It sounds like the Devastators are there for anti-tank, so it seems like he's pretty lacking in anti-infantry shooting, which is pretty common in 8th edition lists. You can take advantage of this in a couple ways. Lindsay mentioned Possessed and Berserkers, and those are solid. I like Cultists myself. But getting either kind of unit there is a problem, which is why Alpha Legion is so good. Very few armies are equipped to deal with 120 Cultists deploying 9" away, and their damage output is fantastic when buffed by a Champion and an Apostle. Morale can be an issue, though. Your other main option is to deep strike almost everything of value while deploying only some Horrors, small Cultist squads, and characters.
I did well against a similar list using Guilliman instead of Azrael by setting up 3 big Cultist squads daisy-chained back to buffers and then deep-striking 4 units of Obliterators. Obliterators are your easy answer to the devastator squads. It's very hard for him to keep you from coming in within 24" (and it sounds like you're finding this to be possible since you were able to do something with the Warp Talons). Obliterators don't care too much about the 4++ because it's only relevant if they roll AP-3 against Marines in cover. Regardless, a squad of Obliterators shooting at T4 4++ expects to kill about 5 models -- you can rip his firebase to pieces in your first turn, and even the Hellblasters go down easy since you only bother to shoot them if your Oblits roll damage higher than 1. Your main concern is going to be keeping assault units off of the Obliterators.
Msolve wrote: So I'm looking to make some Khorne Berserkers from AoS Blood Warriors and was wondering if the starter set ones will work or would it be better to just buy the 60 dollar 10 man unit
It depends on how serious you are about wysiwyg. I've actually been using boxes of Easy-to-Build Bloodreavers as the basis of mine as they're suspiciously close to my wysiwyg (each has an axe and a sword which is easy to turn into a chainsword).
Blood Warriors are your best bet at "new" berserkers. I usually grabbed the mono pose ones from AoS starter from ebay for around 10-15 for 5. Made 2 units of 10. Uses spare chainswords from all my heresy stuff and glued them to their sides. Tossed on a chaos backup, and done. Leader had his hand chopped off for a power fist from heresy also, which fit perfectly without needing any greenstuff. 60$ for 20 guys with very minor effort besides painting. Cant beat that. They are also a good scale as they are as big as primaris about. Just stinks they only have 1 wound
Msolve wrote: So I'm looking to make some Khorne Berserkers from AoS Blood Warriors and was wondering if the starter set ones will work or would it be better to just buy the 60 dollar 10 man unit
It depends on how serious you are about wysiwyg. I've actually been using boxes of Easy-to-Build Bloodreavers as the basis of mine as they're suspiciously close to my wysiwyg (each has an axe and a sword which is easy to turn into a chainsword).
For a few quid you can get a pack of Anvilus pattern backpacks, put them on Blood Warriors and you're sorted. Their spiked fists are a perfectly fine +1A weapon if you don't have a load of sheathed swords or suchlike to add.
I think the leather boots and all open helmets throw it off for me.
I am in the process of making a second squad with the boots being cut off at the knee and joined with CSM / Berserker calves / boots.
For arms, I'm using CSM / Bserserker arms and blood warrior arms where the axe heads are cut off at the head and replaced with the head of a FW chain axe.
For heads, I'm using Berserker heads and FW berserker heads.
Shoulder pads are all about CSM / Khorne / Chaos World Eater ones.
All in all, you end up with something that looks like an upgraded berserker that stands a head taller than normal CSM, about the same size as Primaris. Given their strength 5, seems quite fitting.
I'v done the same with my blood zerkers (lol). Just sucks when I started the first few, it was pre-8th so they got given bolt pistols. Though I don't care about wysiwyg too much.
As for the leather boots and bare skin, well, for me it just plays up the gladiator vibe the world eaters have ?
I'm using Bloodreavers rather than Blood Warriors for my Berzerkers. Much cheaper (twice as many bodies for same price) even if you have to really suspend your disbelief at bare-chested barbarian-looking guys being as tough as Astartes. My personal fluff justification for it is that they were on an isolated planet in the Eye of Terror, they fought each other all the time, which drew the attention of Khorne. Khorne enhanced their physiology to be able to withstand blows that would obliterate a normal human being, and then Kharn showed up and recruited them into his warbands. I'm actually going to perhaps write a short story about this in the Dakka Fiction section soon.
Played my first game with the 8th edition codex, the intoxicating elixir, diabolic strength daemon prince is a beast. Took stimulated by pain as my warlord trait, she ended up with 12 attacks by the end of the game and was going around slaughtering everything which dared to get within threat range.
12 str10 ap-2 D2 attacks is pretty sick .
The 10 man combi-plasma terminator squad also preformed as expected it killed a two 10 man tactical squads, an assault squad, a scout squad, a predator, a rhino and cato sicarius. (I failed to get prescience on turn 1 but the veterans of the long war + endless cacophony annihilated the tacticals) they then slaughtered a scout squad on the charge and killed cato sicarius and the assault marines on his turn when then piled in to help (though I lost 6 terminators to Cato doing mortal wounds :/)
Wasn't happy with the obliterators but I rolled awful for there weapons twice in a row :/
Not the best list but here it is 2000 points
Battalion Emperor's children Daemon prince – 180 (talons, intoxicating exlier, Diabolic strength) (warlord stimulated by pain)
Chaos Terminator Lord – 129 (Chainfist, combi bolter)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
How are you liking the helbrutes? I want to model some up for my world eaters but unsure if worth it compared to terminators or something else like decimators.
BoomWolf wrote: In another note, I was told the new codex contains changes to rubric marines, anyone who has a book can confirm/deny? (and send me a pic of the new slate if possible, as I understand from battlescribe the rules of if you can take a soulreaper are a bit weird? 1 at minimum fut the second only at 20?)
That is correct. One at min and another at 20. That is also weird to me...
Wait are you serious!?!?!?!?! Need pic or link please.
Cause if this is the case it really opens up options for TS using Rubrics has just drastically changed.
Rydria wrote: Played my first game with the 8th edition codex, the intoxicating elixir, diabolic strength daemon prince is a beast. Took stimulated by pain as my warlord trait, she ended up with 12 attacks by the end of the game and was going around slaughtering everything which dared to get within threat range.
12 str10 ap-2 D2 attacks is pretty sick .
The 10 man combi-plasma terminator squad also preformed as expected it killed a two 10 man tactical squads, an assault squad, a scout squad, a predator, a rhino and cato sicarius. (I failed to get prescience on turn 1 but the veterans of the long war + endless cacophony annihilated the tacticals) they then slaughtered a scout squad on the charge and killed cato sicarius and the assault marines on his turn when then piled in to help (though I lost 6 terminators to Cato doing mortal wounds :/)
Wasn't happy with the obliterators but I rolled awful for there weapons twice in a row :/
Not the best list but here it is 2000 points
Battalion Emperor's children Daemon prince – 180 (talons, intoxicating exlier, Diabolic strength) (warlord stimulated by pain)
Chaos Terminator Lord – 129 (Chainfist, combi bolter)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Noise Marines – 107 (x4 sonic blasters, x1 Blastmaster)
Blastmasters and the daemon prince are still my big winners.
Also uh your Heldrake points are wrong. Your forgot the claws which is 17 pts so 185 for the baleflamer drake.
I am still not sold on the chaos termis being such a huge point sink but man it sounds like they did amazing work.
Oh my bad I'm 2pts over on my list then :/ To think I only took the combi bolter on the sorc because I thought I had 17pts spare lol.
Blastmasters are really good possibly the best infantry weapon in the game, I actually think noise marines are the best troops in the chaos codex even better than Berserkers (at least at doing troop jobs) there camping abilities are top quality since they actually do something while camping.
The Daemon prince is definitely a winner one of the most choppy characters I've seen this edition.
I will accept the 10 man terminators is a big risk, but you should at least try it once with proxy, it was really fun to watch them annihilate a huge hole in my opponents army, it was like reading one of the books when terminators are like unstoppable juggernauts : P
Can someone source me where Blastmasters are able to be taken on Helbrute and both Helbrute arms are able to be swapped out for ranged weapons? The way I am reading the codex I see missile launcher for one hand and other may be swapped for lascannon etc. If both can be removed and made blastmasters this would be a great use of points looks like.
orkswubwub wrote: Can someone source me where Blastmasters are able to be taken on Helbrute and both Helbrute arms are able to be swapped out for ranged weapons? The way I am reading the codex I see missile launcher for one hand and other may be swapped for lascannon etc. If both can be removed and made blastmasters this would be a great use of points looks like.
Actually both blastmasters go on 1 arm, since it is supposed to be either a double barreled blastmaster or a heavy blastmaster (rules wise it is 2 blastmasters) so you still get to keep your close combat arm or take a missile launcher.
Also it appears the sorcerer no longer costs extra, but only his extra gear.
So rubric squads are not only more flexible in gear choices, they also cost less.
TheWaspinator wrote: Honestly, I think AoS Blood Warriors would be pretty ok as Berserkers as-is. The melee weapons are more important than the pistols and it's pretty clear what they're supposed to be.
I'm using them as proxies also. Let's be honest - every zerker doesn't leave home without a chainaxe and chainsword nowadays anyhow. Not having a sword and using their fist spike thing....pretty solid as far as counts as. And yeah it's an axe, not a chainaxe, but that's about it.
I just got 2 of the $60 boxes so I can't speak to the differences between them and the starter sets, but typically it's just more options and/or poses.
)
Lets try to work together and when we hit heads, let the other respond for themselves rather then acting like we already know better.
They also have the hellbrute keyword after the 
Why the Warp did they use this convoluted term of phrase that's open to argument instead of just using HERETIC ASTARTES? Oh, no, 
