You are making it more complicated than it needs to be, it is quite simple.
There are two datasheets for each cult marine let's call them troops and elites.
Codex chaos space marines has only replaced the elites version of the datasheet. (and the troop versions are different datasheets due to keywords being different)
By your logic space marines, Blood angels, Dark Angels and Space wolves have to use the rules for rhinos, razorbacks, dreadnoughts, stormravens, storm talons, Land raiders in codex Greyknights, because it is a identically named datasheet and is the most recent datasheet. So enjoy your vehicles your space marines can't ride in. (Different keywords makes them separate datasheets from those in codex space marines)
mrhappyface wrote: So after, what, 10 years now? It has been confirmed that Berzerkers can no longer be taken as troops in Khorne/WE detachments, apparently because Berzerkers are elite units in WE armies. Wth? This has got me so damn salty.
Gonna complain my ass off to GW that cult units are no longer troops in their own legions, I'll probably get the same stupid response though: "What's the problem? Just take them in a different detachment", thanks for penelising fluffy Legion players GW! This is especially stupid for TS players though who's legion doesn't actually have any CSM!
So damn salty.
Where was this confirmed? Frontline Gaming said the exact opposite not long ago, and they usually have a pretty good handle on these things.
Re: zerkers delivery method, go for the storm eagle if you want to do Forge World. Not much more expensive than a kharybdis and WAY better offensive output.
Otherwise, we are alpha legion. It's not ideal, but it'll get better with more BLOS terrain, which really is necessary in today's game. Plus, if you go first....whoo baby! As a Tyranid player, I can tell you that that -1 to hit is just amazingly powerful. And if they want to get up close and personal to avoid that....
Speaking of alpha by the way, I'm sure this has already been mentioned but Changeling + Alpha legion oblits. Wow what a firebase at -2 to hit!
It was confirmed by the guy who wrote the Codex on WarhammerTV, also I believe FLG said they made a mistake on that...
I knew it! They had to screw Chaos over somehow. So, not only can we not use Daemons as troops, since they don't get obsec for some reason. But you have to take them in a separate detachment anyway to keep you Legion traits. So you have to take three units either cultists or regular busted CSM. Emperor's Children really want as many CP as you can get, so I can't just run Vangaurd. Plus we're gonna need that obsec. I despise cultists so that's out. So, I guess its CSM being useless in my deployment zone. Yeah.
Sersi wrote: I knew it! They had to screw Chaos over somehow. So, not only can we not use Daemons as troops, since they don't get obsec for some reason. But you have to take them in a separate detachment anyway to keep you Legion traits. So you have to take three units either cultists or regular busted CSM. Emperor's Children really want as many CP as you can get, so I can't just run Vangaurd. Plus we're gonna need that obsec. I despise cultists so that's out. So, I guess its CSM being useless in my deployment zone. Yeah.
I mean... this is nothing new... why are people surprised?
Daemons have been their own codex for a while. They've always been our allies, not our troops. So you can ally with them in other detachments.
They only exist in the codex as part of the Summoning rule. We're still playing Chaos Space MARINES, not the Grand Alliance of Chaos.
SilverAlien wrote: Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective
That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.
I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...
SilverAlien wrote: Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective
That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.
I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...
Pre-Codex Cultists - 5 points, 40 man squads, meh
Codex Cultists - 4 points, 40 man squads, stratagem to come back from any table edge at full strength, objective secured, legion tactics
Cultists went from being silly to include to being amazing when taken in large blobs. Two 40 man Cultist units will not only prevent early game nonsense from hitting your important units but when they are nearly depleted you can just straight up bring them back behind your enemy while your main force hits them from the front. Cultists are amazingly tactical now.
SilverAlien wrote: Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective
That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.
I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...
Pre-Codex Cultists - 5 points, 40 man squads, meh
Codex Cultists - 4 points, 40 man squads, stratagem to come back from any table edge at full strength, objective secured, legion tactics
Cultists went from being silly to include to being amazing when taken in large blobs. Two 40 man Cultist units will not only prevent early game nonsense from hitting your important units but when they are nearly depleted you can just straight up bring them back behind your enemy while your main force hits them from the front. Cultists are amazingly tactical now.
Shall we just pretend that anyone wants to take Cultist models in their army (not for tactical reasons but for aesthetic reasons)?
OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.
A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.
For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.
This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.
I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.
I mean my normal CSM squads have actually done okay in my games. They aren't my hammer but still 2 specials+combi and 10 power armor bodies isn't terrible. Rather have them as noise marines though.
I will give cultist another try. I have been using my orks as stand ins because I have no cultist models. I started playing with the 3.5 dex when they were an alpha legion thing and never really grabbed them. So far they are an okay tarpit and filler and that is it. Rather have marines though as well I am playing Chaos Space Marines.
Word Bearer cultists get ATSKNF which isn't as crappy for them
IW cultists can be made fearless with a character.
Renegade cultists get advance and charge.
Some good options if we are forced to take 3 units of 10 and thus a 120pt tax for a battalion. Still want to be able to take cult troops but having chaff is pretty crucial in 8th.
Red Corsair wrote: OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.
A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.
For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.
This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.
I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.
I'm still a massive fan of Laser Destroyers: why yes that is a lovely painted StormRaven/Knight/Baneblade, now could you please remove it from the board?
Seriously! With strategems and powers you could have 6 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling, wounding on 2s, basically no armour save and then doing d6, 2d6 or even 3d6 damage per shot! Ouch! You're dropping two StormRavens per turn or an Imperial Knight or a Baneblade or about 3 Raazorback/Predator/Vindicator equivilents!
Red Corsair wrote: OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.
A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.
For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.
This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.
I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.
I'm still a massive fan of Laser Destroyers: why yes that is a lovely painted StormRaven/Knight/Baneblade, now could you please remove it from the board?
Seriously! With strategems and powers you could have 6 shots hitting on 2s re-rolling, wounding on 2s, basically no armour save and then doing d6, 2d6 or even 3d6 damage per shot! Ouch! You're dropping two StormRavens per turn or an Imperial Knight or a Baneblade or about 3 Raazorback/Predator/Vindicator equivilents!
WAY more expensive and terrible vs single wound targets though. Not knocking it, but the quad heavy bolters literally boost any style list I can think of for very cheap.
Red Corsair wrote: WAY more expensive and terrible vs single wound targets though. Not knocking it, but the quad heavy bolters literally boost any style list I can think of for very cheap.
Perhaps, though I still love the idea of blowing 2x 300pt models out of the sky or destroying half of a parking lot list before your opponant has a chance to think and, depending on your list, you might already have a lot of units that can tear through infantry like there's no tomorrow but not much of an answer to monsters and vehicles than hope weight of fire is enough.
SilverAlien wrote: Still, I was excited for obj secured noise marines with their wonderful stat line, cost, and tactic. They'd be wonderful for locking down an objective
That's right! No more obsec on cult units! Now we have to take *shudders* cultists.
I haven't run a single cultist unit since 8th came out and was so happy. But now...
Pre-Codex Cultists - 5 points, 40 man squads, meh
Codex Cultists - 4 points, 40 man squads, stratagem to come back from any table edge at full strength, objective secured, legion tactics
Cultists went from being silly to include to being amazing when taken in large blobs. Two 40 man Cultist units will not only prevent early game nonsense from hitting your important units but when they are nearly depleted you can just straight up bring them back behind your enemy while your main force hits them from the front. Cultists are amazingly tactical now.
Sure cultists are good now sure but the aren't thematic for all legions. EC for instance do not take groupies we snort them! EC legion trait does nothing for them with their mighty one attack. 4 pts? For 3 pts more I can flood the board with Daemonettes. I'm glad this works for other players but not everyone wants to take cultists.
Sersi wrote: I knew it! They had to screw Chaos over somehow. So, not only can we not use Daemons as troops, since they don't get obsec for some reason. But you have to take them in a separate detachment anyway to keep you Legion traits. So you have to take three units either cultists or regular busted CSM. Emperor's Children really want as many CP as you can get, so I can't just run Vangaurd. Plus we're gonna need that obsec. I despise cultists so that's out. So, I guess its CSM being useless in my deployment zone. Yeah.
I mean... this is nothing new... why are people surprised?
Daemons have been their own codex for a while. They've always been our allies, not our troops. So you can ally with them in other detachments.
They only exist in the codex as part of the Summoning rule. We're still playing Chaos Space MARINES, not the Grand Alliance of Chaos.
That's not what I meant. Some are saying that even in a Chaos Daemon detachment daemons don't get obsec because of the way GW worded factions.
Red Corsair wrote: OK so I have been looking at quad heavy bolter rapiers and they seem pretty fething gross actually.
A unit of 3 is 246 points total. Take it from a legion and give it MoS of course. If you cast prescience on them they average 30 hits a turn. Using endless cacaphony thats becomes 60 hits in one phase. To make things more nasty you can use Vets of the Long War as well and your either wounding vehicles on 4's or infantry on 2's.
For some odd reason they are range 48 to top it off. Each gun is t5 4w 3+save and you can't target the gunners unless they are closest.
This unit seems like a no brainer to me, I was trying to make my idiot contemptor efficient using marks and strategems and I kept passing over this entry like a moron lol.
I don't see how this unit isn't pretty much an auto take in any list, it's even 9 models in your backfield for objective purposes.
Rapiers are great, but sadly, I don't think they will work the way you lay out with endless cacophony and Votlw. Once you set them up, each rapier and crew becomes a separate unit. Can only put endless cacophony and Votlw on one unit. Also, the rapiers themselves do not have the infantry keyword, so cannot benefit.
Touching on the Be'lakor discussion from before, he does have one other big advantage going for him....if you're inclined to summon units (and with the decreased point cost of our Troop demons, I think Bloodletters should be appealing), Be'lakor is an excellent guy to do it with. Since he is unmarked by any particular god, he can summon any kind of daemon unit. And unlike say a Malefic Lord or other summon-battery, Be'lakor is quite fast. His movement plus Warp Time can put him in great position turn 1, to be able to summon next turn. Alternately, owing to Warp Time, he is less penalized than other characters because he can summon and then cast and still get one normal movement in on the turn.
Very nice, flexible character. Definitely worth paying a little extra on top of the normal DP costs to include him, in my opinion.
I'm at at work so can't check my index, but does Be'lakor have the <Legion> keyword? It not, I don't know it's worth taking him in a separate detachment.
MaxT wrote: The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.
I've never seen anyone use any other cult troops as elites, they only time they are ever used is when they where available as troops simply because there not good enough.
If i'm forced to take an inferior detachment which gives less command points and denies be objective secured feth taking noise marines i'm taking terminators, possessed, Havocs or chosen so I can give every member of the squad a special/heavy weapon and watch them wreck things.
Also did you guys know that Emperor's Children and World Eaters are supposedly not locked to mark of slaanesh and Khorne respectively according to someone on B&C you can literally take any mark they forgot to put that restriction in the codex :/
What happened to our good old Juggerlord with axe of biting fury? No one fields him anymore?
The axe gives +3 Str, ap -3 and he is str 5. So, that makes his attacks Str 8. He has 4 attacks base. If he is WE, then butcher's nails gives him one more attack on the charge. The Juggernaut itself gives 3 additional attacks at str 7, ap -1
So, he gets 5 Str 8, Ap -3 attacks and 3 Str 7 AP -1 attacks. And we haven't considered world lord traits yet. We can make him Exalted champion to gives yet one more attack. So, now he has 6 attacks on the charge plus the 3 juggernaut attacks. lol Sounds like a ton of attacks. Plus, this is just with axe of biting fury. You can give him a normal or plasma pistol too. Then use demon shot strategem to do d3 mortal wounds before he charges in.
Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
Rydria wrote: Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
zzzz... didn't think of that, less 1 attack... Oh well. with warlord trait exalted champion, he still gets 1 more attack. And he gets the 3 Juggernaut attacks too. He is still very fierce on the charge.
Actually, in that case, might as well field him as another legion's warlord. lol Black legion, alpha legion, night lords can all have marked characters right? Its just that he won't be as fluffy ecept maybe in a black legion army as the warlord because black legion can have just about anything.
Sokhar wrote: Touching on the Be'lakor discussion from before, he does have one other big advantage going for him....if you're inclined to summon units (and with the decreased point cost of our Troop demons, I think Bloodletters should be appealing), Be'lakor is an excellent guy to do it with. Since he is unmarked by any particular god, he can summon any kind of daemon unit. And unlike say a Malefic Lord or other summon-battery, Be'lakor is quite fast. His movement plus Warp Time can put him in great position turn 1, to be able to summon next turn. Alternately, owing to Warp Time, he is less penalized than other characters because he can summon and then cast and still get one normal movement in on the turn.
Very nice, flexible character. Definitely worth paying a little extra on top of the normal DP costs to include him, in my opinion.
I agree with you, although I don't think he can cast warptime on himself, it only applies CSM units. But he's very badass, played with him couple time to summon Bloodletters and push Berzerkers forward with warptime.
Rydria wrote: Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
I'd expect an errata for that.
Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.
Rydria wrote: Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
I'd expect an errata for that.
Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.
The Axe of blind fury doesn't give an extra d6 attacks.
I actually think Str 8 is better than reroll to hit. A straight 2+ to hit is good enough in general. That's 83% chance to hit, and it will give you a 2+ to round infantry type characters. It will also make you deadly even against vehicles.
Str 4 to 5 attacks are good mainly only against infantry. Because you need 5s to wound a vehicle or anything with T6 or higher. No point getting in more hits just to fail to wound.
A powerfist would serve as well, but it is more expensive, and it gives you a -1 to hit. I would see the axe of biting fury as better than a powerfist.
Coming round to the idea of taking cultists over CSM for objective secured now. A 10 man cultist squad is cheap and yes, it dies easily. But you can stick it in cover for a 5+ save. And let's say he shoot it and hope morale kills more. Even if one model survives, it is still objective secured. Imagine how irritating it is to try and kill a one man cultist model who is hiding inside a corner of the ruins.
MaxT wrote: The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.
I've never seen anyone use any other cult troops as elites, they only time they are ever used is when they where available as troops simply because there not good enough.
If i'm forced to take an inferior detachment which gives less command points and denies be objective secured feth taking noise marines i'm taking terminators, possessed, Havocs or chosen so I can give every member of the squad a special/heavy weapon and watch them wreck things.
Also did you guys know that Emperor's Children and World Eaters are supposedly not locked to mark of slaanesh and Khorne respectively according to someone on B&C you can literally take any mark they forgot to put that restriction in the codex :/
This right here, cult troops aren't worth it as elites. It your not going to play to the mission then you going for annihilation. Besides which CSM have been able to take cults as troops for the last 3 editions with a marked Lord.
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Rydria wrote: Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
Yet another missed opportunity. The Daemon Prince is also left out in the cold on Legion Traits.
Looking at Alpha Legion to run my Rubric Marines so I have an actual legion trait to use with my units. Since GW couldnt be bothered with putting out a data slate with that information on it.
Im hoping the -1 to hit will deter some of the more dangerous weapons, mainly overcharged plasma, on top of that the ability to drop a 10 man squad of Rubricae in rapid fire range. Seems like a good way to get some extra tricks without loaing much.
Rydria wrote: Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
I'd expect an errata for that.
Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.
The Axe of blind fury doesn't give an extra d6 attacks.
Huh. Bizarre.
My point stands on the cheapness though. That's points for maybe another power weapon.
What do you guys think about running a Daemonic axe on a DP now the pts have been slashed to 10?
Literally same cost as 2 talons, you loose two attacks but gives you that extra punch if you need it vs horrible stuff.
So do 3 DA attacks then 2 MT attacks
The stratagems make the difference. If you want to spend ~600 points on anti tank shooting, take the predators and use the 1 cp stratagem that makes them add 1 to wounds rolls and damage (although that is a bit unreliable when you dont get the first turn and your opponent manages to kill one of your predators).
If you want to spend less points, take Havocs, give them the mark of slaanesh and let them fire twice for 2 CP. Much cheaper in points, but costs a lot of CP.
Astmeister wrote: I guess that Chosen were never able to do this. So I would not count on it.
the only official chosen models are armed with a close combat weapon, a bolter and a bolt pistol.
You mean the Dark Vengeance guys?
The think is that the Chosen are not able to take Chainsword and Bolter in the Index. They have to choose one, which is a bit sad.
Latro_ wrote: Well with the pts adjustments a 4 lascannon pred is coming in at 190pts
For the same price you can get 7 havocs and 4 lascannons.
The havocs can target 4 seperate targets whereas the pred has to target 3.
With the legion rules (whichever you pick) the havocs get that whereas the pred does not.
Then you are looking at:
7 T4 3+ save would who need to take a LD vs
11 T7 3+ save wounds but more vulnerable to multi damage weps
Pred is more mobile with M10
Pred gets worse as takes damage but can always file all guns
Havocs obv eventually loose models
TBH its prob a hard call, comes down a lot to playstyle and taste
Good analysis! I would add one more thing. For 12 more points, the predator tank can add a havoc launcher and a combi bolter. That's an additional d6str 5 shots at 48 inches, plus a combi bolter. Its a lot of dakka. Whereas for 12 more points, the havoc squad adds one more model with a boltgun. I think the Pred edges out slightly. The issue is the vulnerability to multiwound for the Predator. And if you bring three, you really need other bigger targets to distract the opponent. Not a lot of other such targets, unless you have a Lord of Skulls or Magnus.
Latro_ wrote: Well with the pts adjustments a 4 lascannon pred is coming in at 190pts
For the same price you can get 7 havocs and 4 lascannons.
The havocs can target 4 seperate targets whereas the pred has to target 3.
With the legion rules (whichever you pick) the havocs get that whereas the pred does not.
Then you are looking at:
7 T4 3+ save would who need to take a LD vs
11 T7 3+ save wounds but more vulnerable to multi damage weps
Pred is more mobile with M10
Pred gets worse as takes damage but can always file all guns
Havocs obv eventually loose models
TBH its prob a hard call, comes down a lot to playstyle and taste
Good analysis! I would add one more thing. For 12 more points, the predator tank can add a havoc launcher and a combi bolter. That's an additional d6str 5 shots at 48 inches, plus a combi bolter. Its a lot of dakka. Whereas for 12 more points, the havoc squad adds one more model with a boltgun. I think the Pred edges out slightly. The issue is the vulnerability to multiwound for the Predator. And if you bring three, you really need other bigger targets to distract the opponent. Not a lot of other such targets, unless you have a Lord of Skulls or Magnus.
Actually I did the calculation just a couple of minutes ago.
Against Infantry Havocs are better than the Predator.
Havocs with 4 Heavy Bolters
5 damage = 21 pts per damage
Predator with 2 HB, Pred Autocannon, Combi-Bolter, Havoc Launcher
5.7 damage = 30 pts per damage
When you compare AT Havocs with LasCans against LasCan Predators, they will have an more closely matching pts per damage ratio.
I think it largely depends on which Legion you are using.
Alpha Legion definitely use Havoc.
Iron Warriors also Havocs slightly better against Infantry.
The rest you can use whatever you want!
Rydria wrote: Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
zzzz... didn't think of that, less 1 attack... Oh well. with warlord trait exalted champion, he still gets 1 more attack. And he gets the 3 Juggernaut attacks too. He is still very fierce on the charge.
Actually, in that case, might as well field him as another legion's warlord. lol Black legion, alpha legion, night lords can all have marked characters right? Its just that he won't be as fluffy ecept maybe in a black legion army as the warlord because black legion can have just about anything.
I own 5 jugger lords lol. So I say this with a heavy heart but they really aren't what they used to be. I actually don't care for the ace of blind fury very much now, it eliminates your rerolls as someone else noted and potentially kills friendlies. S8 is also not nearly as big a deal when you consider a normal cheap berserker with a chain axe is s6 -1 ap and only has 2 less attacks. The toughness boost is also less important now since instant death went away. IDK, I actually think a unit of blood crushers is a lot more useful. This is actually a theme really, characters should be providing buffs with a few exceptions while generally there are units that are much better at chopping things up now.
MaxT wrote: The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.
Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.
With obsec and a point drop they would have been stupid as troops. There would be zero point in taking regular troops.
Not really, people were and still take cultists and people who didn't have WE/EC/DG/TS armies couldn't run them as troops. What's happened now is that chaos players are literally only taking cultists as troops when before it was a variety of cultists and the 4 cult units.
Also, for the cult armies, cult units are regular troops so there really is no problem in having cult troops again.
Rydria wrote: Juggerlord isn't infantry, bike, or a hellbrute so he unfortunately doesn't get butcher's nails for the +1 attack, the axe of blind fury also prevents him from re-rolling his misses which is quite bad.
I'd expect an errata for that.
Also remember with D6 extra attacks you don't need the rerolls. Hitting straight on 2 is basically the same as a Power Fist while only costing you a Power Axe.
The Axe of blind fury doesn't give an extra d6 attacks.
Huh. Bizarre.
My point stands on the cheapness though. That's points for maybe another power weapon.
It's not cheap when it costs you your relic slot. I get what you mean but on that note I like a power fist BETTER then the axe. Does basically the same thing since you get -1 to hit but you maintain your reroll 1's and with prescience actually can be improved.
MaxT wrote: The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.
Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.
With obsec and a point drop they would have been stupid as troops. There would be zero point in taking regular troops.
Not really, people were and still take cultists and people who didn't have WE/EC/DG/TS armies couldn't run them as troops. What's happened now is that chaos players are literally only taking cultists as troops when before it was a variety of cultists and the 4 cult units.
Also, for the cult armies, cult units are regular troops so there really is no problem in having cult troops again.
That was kind of a mess but I'll see if I understand your points so bare with me if I missed it. I have a world eaters and an emperors children army, I have plenty of models to run as troops. OR alternatively you can simply take a vanguard detachment. The complaining on the subject has nothing to do with fielding themed armies because the basic rules allows me for example to take my iron warriors army (i know I went full reeetard on chaos armies) from a spearhead detachment which also restrict that armies CP's but whatever. You can't have every fething benefit and no draw backs. If you could field multiple detachments and slot berserkers and noise marines into troops with zero tax or loss of CP's it would be imbalanced. As it is I struggle to find a reason not to give all my units the mark of slaanesh because they gave them the best strategem in the book.
As to the final point you made I assume your talking about death guard and thousand sons which is a total none sequitur since they have their own books and in turn their own internal restrictions.
Just take lesser demons if you have a beef with cultists or marked marines and you MUST take a battalion (even though you clearly don't)
MaxT wrote: The cult units are amazing as they are. Wanting them to be troops too is asking for the moon on a stick.
Hardly since they were already troops in the index and previous codeces.
With obsec and a point drop they would have been stupid as troops. There would be zero point in taking regular troops.
Not really, people were and still take cultists and people who didn't have WE/EC/DG/TS armies couldn't run them as troops. What's happened now is that chaos players are literally only taking cultists as troops when before it was a variety of cultists and the 4 cult units.
Also, for the cult armies, cult units are regular troops so there really is no problem in having cult troops again.
That was kind of a mess but I'll see if I understand your points so bare with me if I missed it. I have a world eaters and an emperors children army, I have plenty of models to run as troops. OR alternatively you can simply take a vanguard detachment. The complaining on the subject has nothing to do with fielding themed armies because the basic rules allows me for example to take my iron warriors army (i know I went full reeetard on chaos armies) from a spearhead detachment which also restrict that armies CP's but whatever. You can't have every fething benefit and no draw backs. If you could field multiple detachments and slot berserkers and noise marines into troops with zero tax or loss of CP's it would be imbalanced. As it is I struggle to find a reason not to give all my units the mark of slaanesh because they gave them the best strategem in the book.
As to the final point you made I assume your talking about death guard and thousand sons which is a total none sequitur since they have their own books and in turn their own internal restrictions.
Just take lesser demons if you have a beef with cultists or marked marines and you MUST take a battalion (even though you clearly don't)
I was mainly refering to your point that people would take nothing but cult units if they could be taken as troops: that seemed lack a very shallow point seeing as, in the new codex, people will only take cultists as troops. I was making the point that cult units as troops increases variety not decreases it.
Also it has everything to do with themed army lists since it penalises EC/WE/DG/TS armies for taking their armies troops. As for all the benefits and no draw back, how about points? When filling a battalion detachment, you could either farm cp with 40pt units of 10 cultists or 100pt units of 5 Zerkers. You are also restricted by your legion choice, +1A isn't amazing on Zerkers since they already pound whatever they hit into the dirt, you give them WE keyword mainly because you want them as troops otherwise you'd make them AL, Renegade, etc. because the tacitcs and strategems are much better for the Zerkers.
And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?
As for your last point, it has been discussed before that Lesser Daemons deny both Legion tactics and Obsec so are not a viable troop choice.
the_trooper wrote: Mark me down as salty if all this cult units as elites only is true.
I suppose we all only have to wait a day or so to find out for ourselves on all this.
They're good enough on their own now to warrant an elite slot.
Plus, look at how much people complained about our Loyalist Scum counterparts getting bikes as troops. Well, now everyone gets the same treatment.
the_trooper wrote: Mark me down as salty if all this cult units as elites only is true.
I suppose we all only have to wait a day or so to find out for ourselves on all this.
Seconded I dont mind Tzzangors but they are niche and you kinda have to build your army around them to make them good. On top of that I NEED lots of CP because of the number of spells being cast. So i am now forced to bring either cultists which i fething despise, or 6 units of Tzzangors which means I basically have my army built for me, and its not any Army I would willingly run.
mrhappyface wrote: And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?
Zero days. As people enjoy making abundantly clear when it benefits them to, TS are denied all the updated crap in the Codex. We're an Index only army so screw you all, I still has troobrics.
mrhappyface wrote: And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?
Zero days. As people enjoy making abundantly clear when it benefits them to, TS are denied all the updated crap in the Codex. We're an Index only army so screw you all, I still has troobrics.
mrhappyface wrote: And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?
Zero days. As people enjoy making abundantly clear when it benefits them to, TS are denied all the updated crap in the Codex. We're an Index only army so screw you all, I still has troobrics.
Le wut? You would take troop rubrics over cheaper units/wargear across the board, more powers, and more stratagems? Taking a cult unit as a troop instead of Elite is more important to you than having an overall better army? I mean if my opponent said he was using the index over the codex for everything I would just straight up let them gimp themselves all they want but I sure as hell won't.
And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?
They didnt even need that. Put out a data slate something with the basic info on TS and DG so we have something to work with rather then "Haha feth you you get nothing after we restircted your units to less then half of what you had before."
nintura wrote: Why can't TS use Rubrics as troops anymore? You can still use the index can't you? You dont have to have the CSM codex....
Not if your units are updated in the codex.
Where exactly does it say that? Because there's a huge difference in Thousand Sons and standard Chaos Space Marines. Did GW come out and specifically say this? Because according to the index, Rubrics with <Thousand Sons> count as troops instead of Elites, meaning it's a replacement effect.
I still think index troop cults are legal just waiting for GW to clarify. Since if there counted as the same datasheet a few other ones like daemon princes will be considered updated too and heretic astartes powers don't work on daemons.
nintura wrote: Why can't TS use Rubrics as troops anymore? You can still use the index can't you? You dont have to have the CSM codex....
Not if your units are updated in the codex.
Where exactly does it say that? Because there's a huge difference in Thousand Sons and standard Chaos Space Marines. Did GW come out and specifically say this? Because according to the index, Rubrics with <Thousand Sons> count as troops instead of Elites, meaning it's a replacement effect.
Same reason why World Eaters have to use the new Berzerkers: the unit entry has been updated in a newer book. You can't pick and choose which unit entries you want to use.
This is similar to when Horrors got updated in WoM with the "split" rule and people wanted to use the old rules but GW said no.
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Rydria wrote: I still think index troop cults are legal just waiting for GW to clarify. Since if there counted as the same datasheet a few other ones like daemon princes will be considered updated too and heretic astartes powers don't work on daemons.
I agreed with this until the codex designer said cult units were no longer troops.
I cannot see that being the case. That goes against what GW was saying about having to buy large number of books. This is quite literally forcing people to buy the new index when they came out, then the new codex, and finally the 1k Sons codex again when it comes out.
The codex writer CAN say that. Because those Rubrics are NOT Thousand Sons. They are generic Rubrics without the <Thousand Sons> tag are they not? So in a generic Heretic Astartes army, yes, they'd be Elites.
Besides, Thousand Sons are not even mentioned in the codex. Not in warlord traits, chapter tactics, nothing. By your logic, you cannot play a 1k Sons army at all any longer.
nintura wrote: I cannot see that being the case. That goes against what GW was saying about having to buy large number of books. This is quite literally forcing people to buy the new index when they came out, then the new codex, and finally the 1k Sons codex again when it comes out.
The codex writer CAN say that. Because those Rubrics are NOT Thousand Sons. They are generic Rubrics without the <Thousand Sons> tag are they not? So in a generic Heretic Astartes army, yes, they'd be Elites.
It was asked whether WORLD EATERS Berzerkers were troops and he said no.
As for less books, well they keep their promise: as a TS player you are only carrying 1 or 2 of those books to a game, they said nothing about forcing you to buy all the books just about what you'd need to carry.
nintura wrote: Well, you play your way, I'll play mine. As it stands, 1k Sons have no codex, so you default to the index.
I'm not talking about playing my way your way, in friendly games I'm still going to use Berzerker troops, I'm talking about tournament/official games: I don't think GW would let you use cult troops in tournaments.
nintura wrote: Well, you play your way, I'll play mine. As it stands, 1k Sons have no codex, so you default to the index.
I'm not talking about playing my way your way, in friendly games I'm still going to use Berzerker troops, I'm talking about tournament/official games: I don't think GW would let you use cult troops in tournaments.
We dont know the answer to that because they haven't answered. Personally I think it's pretty clear. Elite Rubrics have always been for the non-Thousand Sons armies. Have been that way since the beginning of time.
nintura wrote: Well, you play your way, I'll play mine. As it stands, 1k Sons have no codex, so you default to the index.
I'm not talking about playing my way your way, in friendly games I'm still going to use Berzerker troops, I'm talking about tournament/official games: I don't think GW would let you use cult troops in tournaments.
We dont know the answer to that because they haven't answered. Personally I think it's pretty clear. Elite Rubrics have always been for the non-Thousand Sons armies. Have been that way since the beginning of time.
I thought it was pretty clear until a GW game designer said you can't take them as troops anymore, the likely hood is that GW tournaments will take his word as gosbel.
mrhappyface wrote: And TS have to wait how long before they get Rubric troops again? How hard would it have been to put it in the book?
Zero days. As people enjoy making abundantly clear when it benefits them to, TS are denied all the updated crap in the Codex. We're an Index only army so screw you all, I still has troobrics.
Le wut? You would take troop rubrics over cheaper units/wargear across the board, more powers, and more stratagems? Taking a cult unit as a troop instead of Elite is more important to you than having an overall better army? I mean if my opponent said he was using the index over the codex for everything I would just straight up let them gimp themselves all they want but I sure as hell won't.
Your thinking short game. We need CP for rerolls because perils is our biggest threat. Next to overcharged plasma. All those extra stratagems and spells do us no good unless we have the CP to spend on them
The rules for the Thousand Sons faction have not been replaced yet. Literally the only way to play that Faction is to use the index. In fact, the Chaos book specifically says you can't use Thousand Son instead of the <Legion> tag in that book. And that part of the index that tells you how to run the TS faction, tells you they are troops. I think this stands until they get a book, since the rule saying they are troops overwrites the codex entry, which overwrites the index entry.
We dont know the answer to that because they haven't answered. Personally I think it's pretty clear. Elite Rubrics have always been for the non-Thousand Sons armies. Have been that way since the beginning of time.
I thought the same thung when the Index came out. But GW made it clear by slapping TS on to Rubricae they are a troops choice and are treated as troops in ANY army.
I thought it was pretty clear until a GW game designer said you can't take them as troops anymore, the likely hood is that GW tournaments will take his word as gosbel.
Do you have a link for this? Would really apperciate it if you could post it.
nintura wrote: I cannot see that being the case. That goes against what GW was saying about having to buy large number of books. This is quite literally forcing people to buy the new index when they came out, then the new codex, and finally the 1k Sons codex again when it comes out.
The codex writer CAN say that. Because those Rubrics are NOT Thousand Sons. They are generic Rubrics without the <Thousand Sons> tag are they not? So in a generic Heretic Astartes army, yes, they'd be Elites.
It was asked whether WORLD EATERS Berzerkers were troops and he said no.
As for less books, well they keep their promise: as a TS player you are only carrying 1 or 2 of those books to a game, they said nothing about forcing you to buy all the books just about what you'd need to carry.
There is context though if you asked him if they are troops in the codex, he is going to say no, just like if you had asked are juggernaut lords in the codex he would also say no, it is the context of the question.
Also the codex writer has made some huge errors emperor's children and world eaters are no longer cult legions rules wise you can have rubics marines/plague marines in both legions and you aren't restricted by what marks you can take you can have mark of slaanesh world eaters or khornite emperor's children which makes no sense.
From their community page when I asked about this:
"The new codex specifically says that none of the rules in the codex apply to thousand sons or death guard and that they will be getting their own codex so that means that in the mean time you have to use the index rules for them which means rubrics are troops if you use a thousand son army.
Hope that helps"
We dont know the answer to that because they haven't answered. Personally I think it's pretty clear. Elite Rubrics have always been for the non-Thousand Sons armies. Have been that way since the beginning of time.
I thought the same thung when the Index came out. But GW made it clear by slapping TS on to Rubricae they are a troops choice and are treated as troops in ANY army.
I thought it was pretty clear until a GW game designer said you can't take them as troops anymore, the likely hood is that GW tournaments will take his word as gosbel.
Do you have a link for this? Would really apperciate it if you could post it.
This is my argument for all cult troops for falling under the not updated category, since they are different datasheets from the generic ones by having a different battlefield roll and keywords.
Generic on the left, legion specific on the right.
Chaos, heretic Astarte, Khorne <Legions> vs Chaos, heretic Astarte, Khorne, World eaters (Khorne Berserkers)
Chaos, heretic Astarte, Slaanesh <Legions> vs Chaos, heretic Astarte, Slaanesh, Emperor's children (Noise Marines)
Chaos, heretic Astarte, tzeentch <Legions> vs Chaos, heretic Astarte, , tzeentch, Thousand sons (Rubic marines)
Chaos, heretic Astartes, Nurgle <Legions> vs Chaos, heretic Astarte, Nurgle, Deathguard (Plague marines)
It would be like claiming index chaos daemon daemon princes are no longer legal because they have an identical name to chaos space marine daemon princes who just got updated despite them having different keywords and psychic powers.
If i'm wrong all i can suggest is we bombard them with complaints as a community asking about where cult troop are for Emperor's children and world eaters until they FAQ it because quite frankly i don't appreciate being forced to use cultists or chaos space marines as troops considering neither fulfill the same role as noise marines. (In addition we should be asking why those two cult legions can take inappropriate marks)
I thought it was pretty clear until a GW game designer said you can't take them as troops anymore, the likely hood is that GW tournaments will take his word as gosbel.
Do you have a link for this? Would really apperciate it if you could post it.
It was on the WarhammerTV twitch stream yesterday, they had an interview with the desighner of the two new codeces.
How much cost a new elite unit of rubrics with the new codex?
One unit is 4 Rubric with 1 Aspiring Sorcerer. In point cost list there is no entry for Aspiring Sorcerer, but it say for Rubric 5-20 for 18 each.
So is it
a) 5 * 18 for one unit of 4 Rubric and 1 Aspiring Sorcerer
b) 4 * 18 + 30 for 1 Aspiring Sorcerer from Index
c) 5 * 18 (cuz it says in codex 5-20) + 30 for 1 Aspiring Sorcerer from index
For the discussion about troop and elite choices for cult units, there are pros and cons against it... only GW can help us here. I guess it lacks some extra datasheets for cult units then.
So wait, Thousand Sons doesn't even get the updated Dark Hereticus discipline or any of the other non-legion-specific stuff? Guess I'm playing a Renegade Chapter until the codex comes out...
Arachnofiend wrote: So wait, Thousand Sons doesn't even get the updated Dark Hereticus discipline or any of the other non-legion-specific stuff? Guess I'm playing a Renegade Chapter until the codex comes out...
Correct, they are no more "Chaos Space Marines" than Space Wolves are "Space Marines"
They share some units but are completely different armies.
BlaxicanX wrote: If any one God/legion got the shaft, I'd say it's probably Nurgle. Their units are tough but their offensive power seems pretty gakky.
I've been playing this nurgle list for NOVA style events lately.
I've been willing more games than losing at tourneys. It has weaknesses (mostly because it can't earn butchers bill consistently, and the only guaranteed secondary to get is 'heart of the matter') but it's a solid list.
Arachnofiend wrote: So wait, Thousand Sons doesn't even get the updated Dark Hereticus discipline or any of the other non-legion-specific stuff? Guess I'm playing a Renegade Chapter until the codex comes out...
Correct, they are no more "Chaos Space Marines" than Space Wolves are "Space Marines"
They share some units but are completely different armies.
Pretty sure according to that same warhammer TV episode on twitch that said no more cult troops. Also said that thousand sons could use the updated heretics discipline from codex chaos space marines.
Rydria wrote: Also the codex writer has made some huge errors emperor's children and world eaters are no longer cult legions rules wise you can have rubics marines/plague marines in both legions and you aren't restricted by what marks you can take you can have mark of slaanesh world eaters or khornite emperor's children which makes no sense.
That is not true... please read codex page 116 where it states under Marks of Chaos... "You do not have to choose a Mark of Chaos for a unit if you do not want to; if you do not, it is assumed that the unit is not dedicated to a specific Dark God. The exceptions are units from World Eaters or Emperor's Children Legions: all World Eaters units must have the Khorne keyword if they are able to do so, and all Emperor's Children units must have the Slaanesh keyword if they are able to do so."
I'm sure some basket case rules lawyer will try to take enough drugs until his understand of these statements means something completely different from what's being said, but the gyst of it is that World Eaters and Emperor's Children are already covered as being Khorne/Slaanesh only under the Mark rules while DG and TS are getting their own codex to say all that stuff. GW sucks at writing rules which is why some Chaos legions are being denied stratagems while some fools are trying to taking Noise Marines as World Eaters.
But remember the golden rule: This rulebook weighs a hefty amount. I will beat you over the head with it until you get smarter.
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TheWaspinator wrote: Am I reading it right that despite being in the CSM codex, the demon infantry disqualify a detachment for Legion traits?
That's kind of been the case for ages. Daemons are allies, not troops. They belong in their own detachment. You can take them as part of the Chaos faction but lose benefits.
The only reason they list them at all is for summoning purposes.
They are no longer troops, and I believe this has been confirmed by GW to be intentional.
But, I guess it makes sense. Troops are taken for ObSec and command points as you need them for Battalions, and that type of strategic planning doesn't seem too Berzerker-y to me. Run them as a Vanguard detachment or use Cultists or Bloodletters as troops.
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
Had my first game today of 40k with the new codex against an Imperial Fists player. All I really took away from that game was that Primaris marines are crap: I destroyed a unit of Hellblasters and a banner man turn 1 with Terminator deep strike just using their combi-plasma. His Lysander model managed to kill my Terminator lord but then what was left of my Terminator squad (a Champion and 1 Termie) Charged in and wrecked him with Power Fists: 7 attacks from two Termies at S8? Nasty.
Not really marking that game down as a real test of the new codex rules because I'm pretty sure I'd have whiped the floor with him even without the new tactics and strategems. (Side note: the guy I played against was the only one available to play this morning and only had his pretty mediocre IF list with him whilst I had brought a more powerful WE list. Though I really wanted to take it for a spin, I didn't use my Fire Raptor against him once I saw the list he had, not because I was tailering but because the FR would have one Flyer armied his army.)
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GrafWattenburg wrote: Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.
So my FLGS opens in a few hours, and it seems from the scuttlebutt here that there is no real reason to take <WORLD EATERS> as my legion outside of overkill. So would I be better off taking night lords or renegade as I despite alpha legion.
Just keep in mind you lose veterans of the long war if you take renegades as your legion trait which is one of the top 2 strategems in the book. It is the trade off fot such a powerful legion trait.
StarHunter25 wrote: So my FLGS opens in a few hours, and it seems from the scuttlebutt here that there is no real reason to take <WORLD EATERS> as my legion outside of overkill. So would I be better off taking night lords or renegade as I despite alpha legion.
WE Legion tactic is still good for Terminators, Characters, Cultists and Berzerker units that have been heavily damaged. In the game this morning, my Zerker champions managed to whipe out half of my opponants army on their own with 8 attacks each hitting on 4s (producing extra attacks on 6s), re-rolling 1s, wounding on 2s, re-rolling, and basically ignoring armour. A single 5 man Zerker unit with strategems, legion tactics and aura support could take on almost anything (do almost 18 damage to a Knight on the charge with buffs).
StarHunter25 wrote: I didn't think dudes with PF could generate DTtFE attacks. What with them generating on 6+ and fists give -1 to hit.
Damn, you're right on that one. I'll have to remember that for my next game (wouldn't really have affected the game though since my normal Zerkers who didn't even get to attack would have cleaned up anything that was left).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd also like to point out that, if DeathGuard Terminators get access to the cc weapons that Plague Marines get.... Jeezus.
Instead of Power Axes take Flails of corruption which get d3 attacks per attack (so 2d3 attacks per termie and 3d3 on the champion for an average of 22 attacks for a 5 man squad!), they are S6 AP-2 D2 and damage spills over! That's gonna hurt!
And swap out Power fists/Chain fists for Great plague cleavers which do the same thing but have Dd6 instead of d3 and re-roll 1s to wound.
Of course this is just "what if's" but I don't see why DG termies wouldn't get access to these weapons.
GrafWattenburg wrote: Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.
Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.
GrafWattenburg wrote: Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.
Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.
Ugh, I'm just gonna stop confirming/debunking rules today; I've already screwed up twice.
GrafWattenburg wrote: Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.
Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.
Ugh, I'm just gonna stop confirming/debunking rules today; I've already screwed up twice.
I'll go eat some cake and come back tomorrow.
No big deal; you just seem excited with the new Codex in hand.
I heard that Leviathans have gained the Helbrute keyword, gaining the benefits of Legion traits. That's the first thing I might be wrong on.
However the wording of Fire Frenzy stratagem, combined with it not using the bold to indicate it's a keyword, I believe the Leviathan cannot have it used on it, correct?
mrhappyface wrote: I now have my hands on the codex and can't find anyway to make Berzerkers troops. Anyone else with the codex find something different?
There have been no changes made to the World Eater book from the index which grants the right as an army special rule. This will no doubt transfer to each of the legion codex releases and the only reasons WE and EC are mentioned at all in the CSM codex is to get access to their stratagems and legion traits/weapons EARLY since they won't be seeing a codex for quite some time. However, information regarding permissible legion or mark keywords does not replace army instructions for a separate faction in the index. You can still treat World Eaters as its own faction, with its own Index section, just as you can do so for Dark Angels etc despite them not having a codex. If you do, you can only take World Eaters units and must follow the World Eaters army rules -- WHICH GRANT BERZERKERS AS TROOPS EXPLICITLY ACCORDING TO THE 'BERZERKER HORDE' RULE! -- and since the Forces of the World Eaters rule specificies that pages 16 to 42 of the Heretic Astartes datasheets can be World Eaters, exactly as Dark Angels and other SM chapters do it, then you can choose those units as World Eaters faction units. Likewise, the new codex provides even more options for the World Eaters to choose from, such as legion traits, stratagems, relics, and updated datasheets. NONE of this replaces World Eaters as its own faction or the RULES present in the Index for treating it as such.
GrafWattenburg wrote: They are no longer troops, and I believe this has been confirmed by GW to be intentional.
But, I guess it makes sense. Troops are taken for ObSec and command points as you need them for Battalions, and that type of strategic planning doesn't seem too Berzerker-y to me. Run them as a Vanguard detachment or use Cultists or Bloodletters as troops.
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
It has not been confirmed, people are spreading a misinterpreted comment as confirmation that they will never be troops. It was merely referring to that codex, as in the past people could make them troops by taking marked lords. The ObSec thing doesn't matter because as you can see in Thousand Sons and Death Guard, Chaos Space Marines are NOT valid choices for troops. All Thousand Sons non-sorcerer marines are RUBRICS! Everything human in Nurgle's army is a PLAGUE MARINE! To claim that they are no longer troops would be a massive nerf to cult legions who are now forced to take Cultists in their lists or the new Not-Cultists.
GrafWattenburg wrote: Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.
Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.
Actually, I disagree here. mrhappyface was correct on his version.
The Reinforcements rule (pg177) specifies that this only applies to units that arrive "mid-turn", giving the example of the movement phase but possible during other phases. The penalty it gives is also very explicit in its restriction.
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"
Except the Forward Operatives stratagem (pg 160 CSM Codex) specifically states that they arrive during the first battle ROUND and this occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. Since it occurs before the first turn, the penalty to not move further during that turn cannot possibly take place. GW has made an explicit distinction this edition between Rounds and Turns and the stratagem makes it explicit that this happens outside the turn structure. Therefore, Berzerkers setup using Forward Operatives can DEFINITELY still move or advance on their first turn, regardless of who goes first.
This rule is almost identical to the similar Infiltration or Scouting rules that have always permitted movement on the turns they arrived because they do not count as Deep Strike or arriving from reserves. They have always been on the battlefield and are now choosing expose their location.
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Captyn_Bob wrote: Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?
mrhappyface wrote: I now have my hands on the codex and can't find anyway to make Berzerkers troops. Anyone else with the codex find something different?
There have been no changes made to the World Eater book from the index which grants the right as an army special rule. This will no doubt transfer to each of the legion codex releases and the only reasons WE and EC are mentioned at all in the CSM codex is to get access to their stratagems and legion traits/weapons EARLY since they won't be seeing a codex for quite some time. However, information regarding permissible legion or mark keywords does not replace army instructions for a separate faction in the index. You can still treat World Eaters as its own faction, with its own Index section, just as you can do so for Dark Angels etc despite them not having a codex. If you do, you can only take World Eaters units and must follow the World Eaters army rules -- WHICH GRANT BERZERKERS AS TROOPS EXPLICITLY ACCORDING TO THE 'BERZERKER HORDE' RULE! -- and since the Forces of the World Eaters rule specificies that pages 16 to 42 of the Heretic Astartes datasheets can be World Eaters, exactly as Dark Angels and other SM chapters do it, then you can choose those units as World Eaters faction units. Likewise, the new codex provides even more options for the World Eaters to choose from, such as legion traits, stratagems, relics, and updated datasheets. NONE of this replaces World Eaters as its own faction or the RULES present in the Index for treating it as such.
GrafWattenburg wrote: They are no longer troops, and I believe this has been confirmed by GW to be intentional.
But, I guess it makes sense. Troops are taken for ObSec and command points as you need them for Battalions, and that type of strategic planning doesn't seem too Berzerker-y to me. Run them as a Vanguard detachment or use Cultists or Bloodletters as troops.
Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
It has not been confirmed, people are spreading a misinterpreted comment as confirmation that they will never be troops. It was merely referring to that codex, as in the past people could make them troops by taking marked lords. The ObSec thing doesn't matter because as you can see in Thousand Sons and Death Guard, Chaos Space Marines are NOT valid choices for troops. All Thousand Sons non-sorcerer marines are RUBRICS! Everything human in Nurgle's army is a PLAGUE MARINE! To claim that they are no longer troops would be a massive nerf to cult legions who are now forced to take Cultists in their lists or the new Not-Cultists.
Except that the SM Codex explicitly states that Dark Angels are different and will get their own Codex, just like this CSM one explicitly states Death Guard and Thousand Sons are getting their own - but make no exception for World Eaters and even outline them in the Codex: CSM section for making your force battle-forged... which has no stipulation or allowance (in Codex: CSM) to make Berzerkers Troops... so until GWFAQs/Erratas them or releases a separate Codex for WE it looks like the Codex: CSM version overwrites/takes precedence.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?
20 man Zerker unit, stick them in cover over 12" from the enemy for -1 to hit and 2+ armour save. Then drop down a Sorcerer first turn and use Warptime on them.
Other than that, they seem like a pretty good distraction for your opponant.
GhostRecon wrote: Except that the SM Codex explicitly states that Dark Angels are different and will get their own Codex, just like this CSM one explicitly states Death Guard and Thousand Sons are getting their own - but make no exception for World Eaters and even outline them in the Codex: CSM section for making your force battle-forged... which has no stipulation or allowance (in Codex: CSM) to make Berzerkers Troops... so until GWFAQs/Erratas them or releases a separate Codex for WE it looks like the Codex: CSM version overwrites/takes precedence.
And for that you would have to provide the page number where World Eaters army rules are provided. Hint: they aren't. They have not been replaced at all, they've been supplemented. The issue here is that people are failing consistently to understand what overwrites what. DATASHEETS are what are overwritten, POINT COSTS are overwritten, NOT army rules that grant these permissions. Again, there is NOTHING in the Codex stating that World Eaters as a faction must adhere to X rules. There is literally only a section in the Legion and Mark keyword entries describing who may take these words along with the permission to use the contents of the book's stratagems, psychic powers, legion traits, warlord traits, and relics for the specified Legions in question. That line about Dark Angels or Thousand Sons being different? That applies to whether or not they are PERMITTED to use the powers, stratagems, traits, and relics within.
Context is everything and so many people are failing to account for that, such as with the horrendously exaggerated claim that a GW guy confirmed on stream that Troops are gone. That's not at all what was said. A guy from Google was recently fired and the news is making it sound like it was because he made a sexist memo. Actually reading the memo shows this is not the case and was not at all his perspective.
GrafWattenburg wrote: Speaking of Berzerkers, can they (and any other unit for that matter) move in the turn after using the Alpha Legion Forward Operatives?
Why wouldn't they be able to? That strategem happens before turn 1.
Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.
Actually, I disagree here. mrhappyface was correct on his version.
The Reinforcements rule (pg177) specifies that this only applies to units that arrive "mid-turn", giving the example of the movement phase but possible during other phases. The penalty it gives is also very explicit in its restriction.
"Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"
Except the Forward Operatives stratagem (pg 160 CSM Codex) specifically states that they arrive during the first battle ROUND and this occurs BEFORE the first turn begins. Since it occurs before the first turn, the penalty to not move further during that turn cannot possibly take place. GW has made an explicit distinction this edition between Rounds and Turns and the stratagem makes it explicit that this happens outside the turn structure. Therefore, Berzerkers setup using Forward Operatives can DEFINITELY still move or advance on their first turn, regardless of who goes first.
This rule is almost identical to the similar Infiltration or Scouting rules that have always permitted movement on the turns they arrived because they do not count as Deep Strike or arriving from reserves. They have always been on the battlefield and are now choosing expose their location
Except that Infiltration, such as SM Scouts' 'Concealed Positions' rule, occurs during deployment:
‘Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models.’
And Vanguard/Scouting movements occur based on movement and don't allow a unit to arrive anywhere on the board - they have to already be deployed to benefit from the rule, such as Darkstrider's 'Vanguard' rule or AM's Scout Sentinels' 'Scout Vehicle' rule. They allow an out-of-sequence move but don't have a BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to their situation.
GhostRecon wrote: Except that Infiltration, such as SM Scouts' 'Concealed Positions' rule, occurs during deployment:
‘Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models.’
And Vanguard/Scouting movements occur based on movement and don't allow a unit to arrive anywhere on the board - they have to already be deployed to benefit from the rule, such as Darkstrider's 'Vanguard' rule or AM's Scout Sentinels' 'Scout Vehicle' rule. They allow an out-of-sequence move but don't have a BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to their situation.
If you're going to quote a rule that says they occur during deployment then you might also want to point our what relevance that carries. Deployment occurs before the first turn and does not impact your ability to move because the Reinforcements rule has nothing to do with deployment. Read it and cite where you think differently.
The Forward Operatives stratagem likewise states "Use this stratagem when you can set up an Alpha Legion Infantry during deployment. You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding place - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models". It not only is a function of the deployment but triggers BEFORE the first turn and cannot suffer the Reinforcements penalty that forbids movement on that turn. A round is not a turn.
As they were dropped onto the table out-of-sequence from the turn structure and there is no BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to that situation, they are still permitted to move on their NEXT turn. Which happens to be the 1st turn.
GhostRecon wrote: Except that Infiltration, such as SM Scouts' 'Concealed Positions' rule, occurs during deployment:
‘Concealed Positions: When you set up this unit during deployment, it can be set up anywhere on the battle eld that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models.’
And Vanguard/Scouting movements occur based on movement and don't allow a unit to arrive anywhere on the board - they have to already be deployed to benefit from the rule, such as Darkstrider's 'Vanguard' rule or AM's Scout Sentinels' 'Scout Vehicle' rule. They allow an out-of-sequence move but don't have a BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to their situation.
If you're going to quote a rule that says they occur during deployment then you might also want to point our what relevance that carries. Deployment occurs before the first turn and does not impact your ability to move because the Reinforcements rule has nothing to do with deployment. Read it and cite where you think differently.
The Forward Operatives stratagem likewise states "Use this stratagem when you can set up an Alpha Legion Infantry during deployment. You can set up the unit in concealment instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins, the unit emerges from its hiding place - set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models". It not only is a function of the deployment but triggers BEFORE the first turn and cannot suffer the Reinforcements penalty that forbids movement on that turn. A round is not a turn.
As they were dropped onto the table out-of-sequence from the turn structure and there is no BRB rule that outlines any additional restrictions to that situation, they are still permitted to move on their NEXT turn. Which happens to be the 1st turn.
Difficulties of working from a tablet means it's hard to copy-paste all the relevant rules sections. And I was quoting the Scouts section to highlight how the rule's premise doesn't apply or provide any precedent that benefits the AL/RG stratagem - it specifically mentions Scouts forward deploy during deployment, so the 'Reinforcements' rule wouldn't apply.
Incorrect, it happens before you get your individual turn but it still occurs in the first battle round - so still follows the rules for "Reinforcements" (e.g., Deep Strike). The ordering of having it happen in the first battle round but before first turn is intentional, in that it can backfire if your opponent gets first turn.
No it says "Before the first battle round begins" which means prior to either persons turn. You can act normally your first round.
Even if RAW did mean that World eaters could take Berserkers as troops (which it doesn't, we have new rules for WE) then it wouldn't matter since GW have clearly stated they don't intend that it will be FAQ'ed
Honestly it's not like it's a world eaters crushing nerf, this CSM codex is very strong
On the thousand sons. Bring Rubrics as troops I found this in the SM Codex FAQ.
"If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."
Arachnofiend wrote: So wait, Thousand Sons doesn't even get the updated Dark Hereticus discipline or any of the other non-legion-specific stuff? Guess I'm playing a Renegade Chapter until the codex comes out...
Correct, they are no more "Chaos Space Marines" than Space Wolves are "Space Marines"
They share some units but are completely different armies.
Which is odd because they specifically specified that space wolves (and BA/DA) could use updated codex rules and prices for shared models and wargear.
GW is just failing so hard right now.
What the designer probably meant was no cult troops for WE/EC until their special codices come out much later, which is stupid but hey you have CSM to use.
But for DG/Tsons? That means no space marines in the troop slot. Period. Which is mind blowingly idotic.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?
Forward advance deployment happens AFTER Seize-the-Initiative, etc... so if you fail to go first, deploy them 16+ inches away instead of 9", and preferably in cover somewhere mid-field. Average units will probably be outside move+charge range (not that most sane people want to charge Berserkers), and you'll have you -1BS AL trait, plus a cover save (putting you at 2+).
That's REALLY decent, and in your turn, with Warp Time (and if you don't have a source of Prescience and Warp-Time, shame on you), your Zerkers are right back in "charge whatever they feel like" range. :-)
Warpsmith 87
Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Power Axe, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils
2d6 flamer shots
meltagun
2 bs4 bolter shots
18" mortal wound on a tank on 2+ !
gonna rock him with my melta havocs in a rhino instead of a chaos lord.
Also is it bad is i basically give all the units in my 'Iron warriors' army <Alpha Legion> and <Slaanesh> XD
I wouldn't, re-rolls to hit of a 1 I personally believe is better than situational vehicle buffs/curses. Then again, I don't run tank armies so what do I know.
Also, thanks for actual tactical discussion rather than rules debates!
Warpsmith 87
Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Power Axe, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils
2d6 flamer shots
meltagun
2 bs4 bolter shots
18" mortal wound on a tank on 2+ !
gonna rock him with my melta havocs in a rhino instead of a chaos lord.
Also is it bad is i basically give all the units in my 'Iron warriors' army <Alpha Legion> and <Slaanesh> XD
I wouldn't, re-rolls to hit of a 1 I personally believe is better than situational vehicle buffs/curses. Then again, I don't run tank armies so what do I know.
Also, thanks for actual tactical discussion rather than rules debates!
ofc thats why i made the thread XD
I guess i'm trying to be a bit fluffy at least haha, plus someone gave me some tau drones i'm gonna convert them to carry the flamer and melta! I'v gone worse and given him the mark of khorne and swapped his axe. Thing i have found is melta is just all round good, i'd of given him a combi melta if i had the pts.
One thing thats bugging me is that the freedom the index gave to mix in daemon units is a bit offset now by the fact you'll loose your legion buff. Had to separate my detachments up a bit.
heres how its looking XD
Spoiler:
2000pts Iron Warriors
Battalion
Warpsmith <Khorne, Alpha Legion> 87 hq Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils, Power Axe <Axe of Blind Fury>
Super Heavy Auxiliary
Renegade Knight 548 low
Ion Shield, 2x Avenger Gatling Cannons, 2x Heavy Flamers
Heavy Stubber
Another thing thats pretty cool is the card pack for CSM, picked it up has all the malestrom, powers and strats! glad i held off buying the generic cards.
I do feel a bit jilted by the codex is does just seem like the index + strats and some basic traits and powers. not sure i was expecting but the additional stuff just seems a bit of extra slap on the preverbial makup than a new face if you get me (ok i'v been drinkin im not making sense) in a broad sense its quite a lot of content but once you pick your keywords etc your army isnt much different from the index
Question concerning all this Daemons and detachment talk. Does taking the daemons in their own detachment not count for the detachment the legion troops are in for keeping them battleforged and keeping the goodies? Or doesn't it matter so long as they're in the same army?
Captyn_Bob wrote: Anyone see any ways of improving survivability or AL bezerkers infiltrating up close if you don't get first turn?
Forward advance deployment happens AFTER Seize-the-Initiative, etc... so if you fail to go first, deploy them 16+ inches away instead of 9", and preferably in cover somewhere mid-field. Average units will probably be outside move+charge range (not that most sane people want to charge Berserkers), and you'll have you -1BS AL trait, plus a cover save (putting you at 2+).
That's REALLY decent, and in your turn, with Warp Time (and if you don't have a source of Prescience and Warp-Time, shame on you), your Zerkers are right back in "charge whatever they feel like" range. :-)
..wow I hadn't realised it was after roll offs and seizing.. that's so good.
Warpsmith 87
Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Power Axe, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils
2d6 flamer shots
meltagun
2 bs4 bolter shots
18" mortal wound on a tank on 2+ !
gonna rock him with my melta havocs in a rhino instead of a chaos lord.
Also is it bad is i basically give all the units in my 'Iron warriors' army <Alpha Legion> and <Slaanesh> XD
I wouldn't, re-rolls to hit of a 1 I personally believe is better than situational vehicle buffs/curses. Then again, I don't run tank armies so what do I know.
Also, thanks for actual tactical discussion rather than rules debates!
ofc thats why i made the thread XD
I guess i'm trying to be a bit fluffy at least haha, plus someone gave me some tau drones i'm gonna convert them to carry the flamer and melta! I'v gone worse and given him the mark of khorne and swapped his axe. Thing i have found is melta is just all round good, i'd of given him a combi melta if i had the pts.
One thing thats bugging me is that the freedom the index gave to mix in daemon units is a bit offset now by the fact you'll loose your legion buff. Had to separate my detachments up a bit.
heres how its looking XD
Spoiler:
2000pts Iron Warriors
Battalion
Warpsmith <Khorne, Alpha Legion> 87 hq Combi-Flamer, Frak, Krak, Meltagun, Flamer
Mechatendrils, Power Axe <Axe of Blind Fury>
Super Heavy Auxiliary
Renegade Knight 548 low
Ion Shield, 2x Avenger Gatling Cannons, 2x Heavy Flamers
Heavy Stubber
Another thing thats pretty cool is the card pack for CSM, picked it up has all the malestrom, powers and strats! glad i held off buying the generic cards.
I do feel a bit jilted by the codex is does just seem like the index + strats and some basic traits and powers. not sure i was expecting but the additional stuff just seems a bit of extra slap on the preverbial makup than a new face if you get me (ok i'v been drinkin im not making sense) in a broad sense its quite a lot of content but once you pick your keywords etc your army isnt much different from the index
And then those who play one of the four God Legions (or, god forbid, play all of the God legions) have to buy another codex in a month to a year.
As for your list, wondering if it would be wiser to drop the Helbrute for more Oblits in order to get the most milage out of your strategems.
Couple things: 1) Forward Operatives definitely allows the unit to move normally during its first turn 2) If everything in your list is <Alpha Legion>, calling your army, "Iron Warriors" can and will cause confusion. Even if all your stuff is painted Iron Warriors colors, just call everything <Alpha Legion>.
So if I'm interpreting my new CSM Codex correctly....
1) Magnus can choose his 3 powers from the full list of 6 Dark Hereticus Discipline powers in the book, because it just says that anyone that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline uses that list.
2) We've already established that as he has the Tzeentch and Hereticus Astartes keywords, that you can cast Weaver of Fates on him, for an amazingly durable 3++ re-rolling 1's monster.
3) Magnus CANNOT however choose to trade one of his Dark Hereticus powers for Weaver of Fates, because the book only allows <Mark of Chaos> Psykers to trade for the appropriate Mark of Chaos power, because he only has the Tzeentch keyword, not Mark of Tzeentch (god I hate the way GW is handling keywords).
This means if you want uber-buffed Magnus, you have to take some otherwise inferior CSM Daemon Prince(s) to get access to Weaver of Fates, and have said Prince(s) follow Magnus around and cast the buff on him. Not the end of the world because the prince can hide behind Magnus to avoid being targeted, and you can still designate the Prince as a Thousand Sons DP per the index, allowing Magnus to give them re-roll 1's on their invul, recovering some of the durability they would otherwise lose by being a CSM Prince rather than Chaos Daemons Prince, and thus losing Ephemeral Form.
Just shows that uber-Magnus will require a bit more maneuvering to execute, and also makes it a bit more vulnerable to being Denied because the Princes don't enjoy Magnus' +2 to cast powers. But definitely worth the effort!
Sokhar wrote: So if I'm interpreting my new CSM Codex correctly....
1) Magnus can choose his 3 powers from the full list of 6 Dark Hereticus Discipline powers in the book, because it just says that anyone that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline uses that list.
2) We've already established that as he has the Tzeentch and Hereticus Astartes keywords, that you can cast Weaver of Fates on him, for an amazingly durable 3++ re-rolling 1's monster.
3) Magnus CANNOT however choose to trade one of his Dark Hereticus powers for Weaver of Fates, because the book only allows <Mark of Chaos> Psykers to trade for the appropriate Mark of Chaos power, because he only has the Tzeentch keyword, not Mark of Tzeentch (god I hate the way GW is handling keywords).
This means if you want uber-buffed Magnus, you have to take some otherwise inferior CSM Daemon Prince(s) to get access to Weaver of Fates, and have said Prince(s) follow Magnus around and cast the buff on him. Not the end of the world because the prince can hide behind Magnus to avoid being targeted, and you can still designate the Prince as a Thousand Sons DP per the index, allowing Magnus to give them re-roll 1's on their invul, recovering some of the durability they would otherwise lose by being a CSM Prince rather than Chaos Daemons Prince, and thus losing Ephemeral Form.
Just shows that uber-Magnus will require a bit more maneuvering to execute, and also makes it a bit more vulnerable to being Denied because the Princes don't enjoy Magnus' +2 to cast powers. But definitely worth the effort!
Re-read the <MARK OF CHAOS> rule: it says to swap the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword with either the Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch or Slaanesh keyword. Nothing in the index or Codex has MARK OF TZEENTCH in their keyword list. This means Magnus does have access to this power.
Sokhar wrote: 3) Magnus CANNOT however choose to trade one of his Dark Hereticus powers for Weaver of Fates, because the book only allows <Mark of Chaos> Psykers to trade for the appropriate Mark of Chaos power, because he only has the Tzeentch keyword, not Mark of Tzeentch (god I hate the way GW is handling keywords).
I don't think that's how it works actually. Look at the <Mark of Chaos> rules on pg 116. It states that some datasheets specify the Mark of Chaos for a unit, giving the Khorne keyword as an example. I think <Mark of Chaos>, like <Legion>, is a catch all term that includes MULTIPLE viable entries. In this case, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh are all viable <Mark of Chaos> keyword substitutes. Since Magnus has Tzeentch in his faction keywords as well, he appears to already be assumed as having the Mark of Tzeentch.
Cool. That was the way I had assumed it worked when the powers were first spoiled. I just came over-thought it looking at the "Mark of Chaos Psychic Powers" provision and how each power was labeled "Mark of Tzeentch," "Mark of Nurgle," etc. You are correct though that said units would end up with the "Tzeentch" keyword, not "Mark of Tzeentch."
So absolutely no reason not to run uber-Magnus, if you just happen to be a fan of big Tzeentch guys smashing face.
I have been thinking about running a epidimious list. Since mutilators have the daemon keyword and can also take the Nurgle keyword, they would add to the tally mans tally.
I have been thinking about running a epidimious list. Since mutilators have the daemon keyword and can also take the Nurgle keyword, they would add to the tally mans tally.
No they are still overcosted and possessed being buffed made mutilators look even worse, they should have gone up to toughness 5 at there price tag.
Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."
What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"
Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.
I have been thinking about running a epidimious list. Since mutilators have the daemon keyword and can also take the Nurgle keyword, they would add to the tally mans tally.
Well, their fluff in the Codex is pretty sweet. Otherwise no.
Jackal444 wrote: Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."
What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"
Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.
That raises an issue, though it seems a bit of a stretch that he can pick powers from the Dark Hereticus discipline included in the index, but not the identically named, and 50% identical Dark Hereticus discipline included in the new codex.
What do we reckon to Dreadclaw contents? My last new unit before 8ed landed was Plasma Havocs with Icon of Excess, I'm painting up a DC and looking forward to dropping in this lot.
My meta is mostly Power Levels and the price cut on Chosen makes them a no-brainer compared to Havocs for this sort of close ranged firefight. Gonna get a quad of combi-plasmas to make Overwatch really hurt.
For their passenger, I'm leaning towards a melta-fist Lord... perhaps with Talisman of Burning Blood for some nasty surprises, but I'm Word Bearers and there's a lot of nasty things that can be accomplished by a steadfast deep insertion character with twelve Reinforcement PLoints.
I'm going to try a Sorcerer as well... Prescience is a risky way to work around overheats, so I'm inclined to still include the Lord. Delightful Agonies has some merit, but what really interests me is Warptime on the Dreadclaw. Drop that in the middle of a bunch of infantry support units and it's going to leave a mark, possibly eat a hero as well. Possibility for Death Hex as well, and Familiars look like an interesting way to blindside. BUT it's dependent on finding a drop zone near key targets without DTW coverage...
I'm a ways off from dropping a Kharybdis full of Berzerkers and Warptiming them into a bloodbath, though.
I'd love to Warptime Advance twenty Renegade Possessed of Slaanesh with Agonies and a Fabius Bile boost but I'm doing Word Bearers, it'd feel like saying yellow-clad Astartes with fist insignia are actually Ultramarines.
Huh. He can't enhance a unit on the turn it boards a transport. There goes the idea of boosting some Mutilators as they get in a Land Raider. Unless... they Warptime aboard, but that's a waste compared to giving something else a first turn charge.
Could work as an interception thing. Bile enhances some Possessed and waved them goodbye, enemy's dropped in some shock troops, butchered the Cultist screen, threatening the support units... drop in the muties, Bile enhances them, and have a familiar switch out a sorcerer's havocs-friendly spells for Warptime, and it's clobbering time. Eh, but it's such a small unit, if there's a Thunder Hammer to hand they're still getting squished. Can't even add more Muties, which if you could you may as well spend the points on Terminators instead. Unless you're doing a niche thing with Epidemius and Nurgle Daemon units.
Hi people. I have jsut received Kharn as a gift. What is the overall tactica for World Eaters (beside ''using Khorne Berzerkers and a Dark Apostle'") ?
How do you get the most out of their legion trait, warlord traits and artefacts ?
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people. I have jsut received Kharn as a gift. What is the overall tactica for World Eaters (beside ''using Khorne Berzerkers and a Dark Apostle'") ?
How do you get the most out of their legion trait, warlord traits and artefacts ?
Get some Tyrannocytes, saw off and switch around their mouths and butts, use them as Dreadclaws, three of them and an Apostle is an extra CP & delivers a load of zerks into charge range.
Khârn and a Berzerker blob can easily play musical chairs to make sure they get his re-rolls and then pile in to a safe distance when Gorechild starts swinging. It's not difficult to make the Tcyte conversion into a Kharybdis.
Bikers seem good and Axe Of Blind Rage Juggerlord is still a viable accomplice.
Havoc Launcher Rhinos are pretty decent. Havocs with a Lord are solid, whatever your Legion.
If you wanna get beardy than getting another Legion's Supreme Command of Sorcerers on Discs or Bikes or Steeds give mobile access to DTW coverage, Warptime, Prescience, Death Hex, Diabolical Strength... dishonour Khârn with that and watch the heads really roll
I got my codex today and the first thing that stuck out to me was that the Renegade Legion Trait was just better than the Emperor's Children one. Then looking at the actual Slaanesh: artifacts, stratagems and warlord traits; compared to the Emperor's Children specific artifact, stratagem and warlord trait. Blissgiver is garbage, compared to Intoxication Elixir. Stimulated by Pain is nice but all of the generic Warlord Trait are good as is Inspiring Presence from the main rule book. As for Stratagems the Endless Cacophony for shooting twice is generic Slaaneshi. While the EC on Excess of Violence 1CP for +1 attack "if" you kill something, isn't great unless its Terminators, Warp Talons, or Power Sword equipped Chosen. You do miss out on Veterans of the Long War for +1 to wound. Which along with loosing access to the Sonic Dreadnought is the only real negative to just taking a Slaaneshi Renegade Force instead. Or at the very least taken any melee oriented units in a Slaaneshi Renegade detachment.
For instance since CP are shared over the entire army. You would take a Slaaneshi <Renegade> Battalion and kit the those CSM troops, that get nothing the EC legion trait out with chain swords and take advantage of Advance & Charge. Melee Chosen and Terminators are also better taken in a renegade force as well since they can still use Endless Cacophony. Then take a <Emperor's Children> Vanguard for your shooting units or models you want to take EC specific gear on.
The only thing to be mindful of in a mixed force would be characters auras are specific to units with their legion trait. Fortunately, Sorcerers are agnostic in that the power either work for all Heretic Astarte or are Slaanesh Specific.
Jackal444 wrote: Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."
What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"
Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.
Actually on looking at the full text that you're citing parts of, I think you read that wrong. The line that mentions Death Guard and Thousand Sons is printed on the section detailing what "Chaos Space Marine units" are, to wit, units with the <Legion> keyword. The "rules or abilities in this section" is referring to Despoilers of the Galaxy and Legion Traits, as those are explained immediately afterwards. Each one of those other sections you describe (Warlord Traits, Relics, and Tactical Objectives) all include the necessary pre-requisites for your army to benefit from them--Stratagems require a CSM Detachment, Relics require your army to be led by a CSM Warlord, Warlord traits require a CSM Warlord, and Tactical Objectives also require a CSM Warlord.
Dark Hereticus though, includes no such stipulations. Where the other sections detail first what you have to do to unlock those benefits, Dark Hereticus simply states "Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline using the table below." No mention of Chaos Space Marines, or any other such requirements. Just that they have to be a pskyer, and one that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline. So Magnus is in. Be'lakor as well.
So, I've decided to make the most out of having to take non-Noise Marine as troops. So I'm taking some "allied" Flawless Host" and "Silken Death" Slaaneshi renegades with my Emperor's Children to fill out a battalion and abuse the renegade Legion Trait. What would be the best option for Renegade CSM looking to get into melee? I was thinking take three 5 man units to meet the minimum requirement for the battalion. Put two with bolt pistols, chain swords in a rhino, with two flamers and two combi-flamers so they can still advance and charge. While holding the other on a backfield objective. Or take two units of 9 bolt pistols and chain swords in a rhino with a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion. Run them forward to an objective; maybe teleport some Terminators/Obliterators in as support. As well as Sorcerer on a bike with biker that can now advance and charge. Then summon some Fiends to lock the enemy in place. Then take a Vanguard Detachment of Emperors Children for my Daemon Prince and Sonic Dreadnoughts.
Sersi wrote: I got my codex today and the first thing that stuck out to me was that the Renegade Legion Trait was just better than the Emperor's Children one. Then looking at the actual Slaanesh: artifacts, stratagems and warlord traits; compared to the Emperor's Children specific artifact, stratagem and warlord trait. Blissgiver is garbage, compared to Intoxication Elixir. Stimulated by Pain is nice but all of the generic Warlord Trait are good as is Inspiring Presence from the main rule book. As for Stratagems the Endless Cacophony for shooting twice is generic Slaaneshi. While the EC on Excess of Violence 1CP for +1 attack "if" you kill something, isn't great unless its Terminators, Warp Talons, or Power Sword equipped Chosen. You do miss out on Veterans of the Long War for +1 to wound. Which along with loosing access to the Sonic Dreadnought is the only real negative to just taking a Slaaneshi Renegade Force instead. Or at the very least taken any melee oriented units in a Slaaneshi Renegade detachment.
For instance since CP are shared over the entire army. You would take a Slaaneshi <Renegade> Battalion and kit the those CSM troops, that get nothing the EC legion trait out with chain swords and take advantage of Advance & Charge. Melee Chosen and Terminators are also better taken in a renegade force as well since they can still use Endless Cacophony. Then take a <Emperor's Children> Vanguard for your shooting units or models you want to take EC specific gear on.
The only thing to be mindful of in a mixed force would be characters auras are specific to units with their legion trait. Fortunately, Sorcerers are agnostic in that the power either work for all Heretic Astarte or are Slaanesh Specific.
Chaos terminators and chosen are not strictly better in renegades, they are more likely to make charges (except after the initial deep strike) but you're making them worse at killing things since they lack veterans of the long war for that +1 to wound which is incredible.
Terminators with lightning claws having a 75% chance to wound toughness 5 - 7 models is great., a 88% chance vs toughness 4, and a 98.8% chance vs toughness 3, now add in the support staff on a large unit of terminators you can get terminators who hit with 98.9% of there attacks and wound with 98.8% which roughly equals 19.5 unsaved wounds vs conscripts/other toughness 3 swarms (not calculating dtfe) if you used excess of violence on that unit for 1CP you just almost doubled your terminators attacks, which means you just used fury of khorne for 1 less CP.
As for the legion trait, it is the strongest one vs other melee oriented armies since it forces them to play alternating fights (which weakens there offence) you then get army wide priority in every subsequent fight phase where they can't even use counter offence since it can only be used vs charging units. They can't even opt to leave combat as that is an even worse situation as that means you can now shot them before you simply charge them yourself, which puts them back into a unfavorable situation. (Some units despite having really good killing power don't like being hit before they can attack, like Bloodletters, daemonettes and genestealers to name a few this is one of the reasons that noise marines having 2 base attacks is great as it means people have to think twice about mass assaulting EC)
Chaos terminators and chosen are not strictly better in renegades, they are more likely to make charges (except after the initial deep strike) but you're making them worse at killing things since they lack veterans of the long war for that +1 to wound which is incredible.
True, but that assumes you intend to use CP on VOTLW as opposed to more chances at double shots with say Noise Marines, Havocs or Sonic Dreadnoughts shooting. Noise Marines being able to advance shoot a more distant target and then charge a nearby on is pretty tempting.
Terminators with lightning claws having a 75% chance to wound toughness 5 - 7 models is great., a 88% chance vs toughness 4, and a 98.8% chance vs toughness 3, now add in the support staff on a large unit of terminators you can get terminators who hit with 98.9% of there attacks and wound with 98.8% which roughly equals 19.5 unsaved wounds vs conscripts/other toughness 3 swarms (not calculating dtfe) if you used excess of violence on that unit for 1CP you just almost doubled your terminators attacks, which means you just used fury of khorne for 1 less CP.
That's a very good point regarding lightning claws I hadn't given much stock due to the cost. I assume your taking a single claw per Terminator? What your thought on taking those mandatory troops in a renegade battalion; surely there better with advance and charge that always strikes first?
As for the legion trait, it is the strongest one vs other melee oriented armies since it forces them to play alternating fights (which weakens there offence) you then get army wide priority in every subsequent fight phase where they can't even use counter offence since it can only be used vs charging units. They can't even opt to leave combat as that is an even worse situation as that means you can now shot them before you simply charge them yourself, which puts them back into a unfavorable situation. (Some units despite having really good killing power don't like being hit before they can attack, like Bloodletters, daemonettes and genestealers to name a few this is one of the reasons that noise marines having 2 base attacks is great as it means people have to think twice about mass assaulting EC)
All true but that more of a defensive benefit than anything. If you play aggressively or against a shooty but weak in melee army I'd say advance and charge is better.
I feel that using endless cacophony + vets x2 each is good enough.
I'm going to take daemonettes troops in my battalion soon as we get objective secured from chapter approved or codex (which ever comes first) I feel like they are a good follow up to a terminator bomb.
If I ran cultists i'd still take them as emperor's children, always hitting first is better than advance and charge on objective campers anyway.
The one thing I'd take as renegades 100% of the time are chaos bikers I'm planning on trying a list with 3 full sized squads with x2 flamer, combi melta and power sword/or lightning claw, i'm actually pretty hyped to try it out.
Jackal444 wrote: Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."
What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"
Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.
Actually on looking at the full text that you're citing parts of, I think you read that wrong. The line that mentions Death Guard and Thousand Sons is printed on the section detailing what "Chaos Space Marine units" are, to wit, units with the <Legion> keyword. The "rules or abilities in this section" is referring to Despoilers of the Galaxy and Legion Traits, as those are explained immediately afterwards. Each one of those other sections you describe (Warlord Traits, Relics, and Tactical Objectives) all include the necessary pre-requisites for your army to benefit from them--Stratagems require a CSM Detachment, Relics require your army to be led by a CSM Warlord, Warlord traits require a CSM Warlord, and Tactical Objectives also require a CSM Warlord.
Dark Hereticus though, includes no such stipulations. Where the other sections detail first what you have to do to unlock those benefits, Dark Hereticus simply states "Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline using the table below." No mention of Chaos Space Marines, or any other such requirements. Just that they have to be a pskyer, and one that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline. So Magnus is in. Be'lakor as well.
That sounds like a reasonable argument. (gosh I miss saying that... so rare these days...)
Rydria wrote: I feel that using endless cacophony + vets x2 each is good enough.
I'm going to take daemonettes troops in my battalion soon as we get objective secured from chapter approved or codex (which ever comes first) I feel like they are a good follow up to a terminator bomb.
If I ran cultists i'd still take them as emperor's children, always hitting first is better than advance and charge on objective campers anyway.
The one thing I'd take as renegades 100% of the time are chaos bikers I'm planning on trying a list with 3 full sized squads with x2 flamer, combi melta and power sword/or lightning claw, i'm actually pretty hyped to try it out.
So, six command points is enough? I would think you would want more, are you taking two battalions then?
Oh definitely, I would love to field Daemonettes as troops with obsec in a EC legion detachment. I don't think we'll be getting that though, but taking a couple Slaaneshi Daemons detachments with obsec Daemonettes will work well. I see now that I under estimated Flawless Perfection. I also forgot that the CP's for an army being pooled. So I could just take a EC Vanguard Detachments and avoid taking any marines as troops.
I like the idea of the Bike list. I would you take it as an Outrider detachment along with some Seeker Chariots and Seekers.
Here's hoping that when the Chaos Daemon Codex lands that it has a stratagem to allow them to use normal tactical reserves.
Played a 2k game with my Night Lords today using the new codex, and I have ZERO complaints. I friggin loved how they played. I like that needing to get in close with multiple units encourages the kind of ambush mentality I've felt matches the Night Lords.
Between some light shooting, and a few close combat charges, followed by heavy losses to morale, my Night Lords slaughtered 2 units of ten Blood claws, and a unit of ten reivers in a single turn. I think he ended up taking more casualties from leadership fails than he did from my attacks.
Couple observations:
Terminators with endless cacophony: Pretty solid and powerful unit, I'm not really sold on the Combi-Plasma though. I think I'm gonna lean towards combi-meltas more, as a more reliable death dealing weapon. 10 melta shots from 5 termies should be enough to shred most units of whatever number of wounds.
Sorcerers are an absolute must have. The buffs and options are just too good.
I don't think Obsec will have any real impact on Night Lords, as the chapter tactics kind of lend themselves to slaughtering your opponent wholesale anyway haha.
I would say the lightning claw is the most ideal choice, or swords if you need to stay cheap. You could probably also mix in other things (maybe a PF or two?) which seems like it would be okay.
What's a good way to use the Renegade Chapter tactic without using bikes? I've got a Tzeentch Renegades army I like but I'm not really sure how to exploit their advantages because bikes are such an obvious choice but don't exactly feel right.
Some of my thoughts upon reading through the codex a few times:
1. Struggling to think of a reason why you would take Raptors over Warp Talons, since Talons are cheaper, and much more useful in melee?
2. Speaking of which, I think a good tactic would be to Deep-Strike Talons with a Jump-Pack Sorcerer, give them Warp Time, and watch as the intended enemy target turns into meat sauce pasta.
3. I seem to remember an ability or Stratagem to temporarily increase ability auras by 3" (unless I'm going crazy and remembered this wrong). If this is the case, maybe use it for WB aura buff shenanigans?
4. Possessed got an extra wound. Cool, but I'm finding it difficult to see them as useable. Maybe if they also had T5 in addition, then sure.
Eldarain wrote: Nice. What melee weapon are people pairing with the combis on Terminators?
I've been taking 3 axes and 2 PF on a unit of 5. I feel it gives them enough punch to deal with heavy infantry and vehicles, along with combi-plasma.
@Sersi - How are you getting two Special and a combi weapon in a five man Heretac squad?
Teleporting Termies sound good. TBH a ten-man squad of them are about the best option for the Slaaneshi Stratagem (and, incidentally, the Khornate one). What are you thinking, Plasma and Reaper and a Lord letting them really blaze away? I'm not impressed with the Reaper myself and prefer HFs & even plasma-melta split, and Warptime getting them in charge-flame-melt range. With conga lining that's likely a Land Raider and two Primaris Squads dead, easy.
Possessed look like they really benefit from the Renegade ability. They've got no shooting to lose by Advancing, and they're already decent footsloggers with their M7. W2 has decent synergy with 5++ and Slaanesh - their natural enemy is overcharged Plasma, and if they roll 5+ on one of three dice they survive a 2W high AP hit.
Bikers are also a solid choice, if they carry their special weapons they can shoot with them and their TL bolters at no penalty (except the one for advancing, obvs)
Arachnofiend wrote: What's a good way to use the Renegade Chapter tactic without using bikes? I've got a Tzeentch Renegades army I like but I'm not really sure how to exploit their advantages because bikes are such an obvious choice but don't exactly feel right.
Any melee unit you want to footslog rather than deepstrike or load up in a rhino benefits. If you aren't using any khorne, raptors and even warptalons can benefit as it's hard to get the charge off post deepstrike without thhe reroll. Large units of melee cultists, melee loadout plain CSM, or possessed are also options. You can even include your counts as Huron in your counts as red corsairs if you want to work around the morale issues of taking them as high model count units and foot slogging them up the board.
I noticed a stealth buff to Maulerfiends - lasher tendrils now do 6 attacks instead of D6. Also dropped by 9pts to 152.
Not sure if this is intended or not, but as someone who has been trying to run 3 of them its a welcome little change for me.
I know people have been saying that Blood Slaughters are pretty good, but I think they're pretty comparable - 152 vs 180pts, 4 S12 AP3 + 6 S6 AP2 vs 6 S10 AP3 attacks 12 vs 10 wounds...
Arachnofiend wrote: What's a good way to use the Renegade Chapter tactic without using bikes? I've got a Tzeentch Renegades army I like but I'm not really sure how to exploit their advantages because bikes are such an obvious choice but don't exactly feel right.
Any melee unit you want to footslog rather than deepstrike or load up in a rhino benefits. If you aren't using any khorne, raptors and even warptalons can benefit as it's hard to get the charge off post deepstrike without thhe reroll. Large units of melee cultists, melee loadout plain CSM, or possessed are also options. You can even include your counts as Huron in your counts as red corsairs if you want to work around the morale issues of taking them as high model count units and foot slogging them up the board.
Id say it is also quite useful in lists with assault units in rhinos. Having an extra d6 inches to the move + charge really helps make sure they get into combat once they get out, and the rhinos help them make sure they close enough to charge. Bikes obviously benefit a lot of from this as well.
Maulerfiends getting cheaper and choppier and also having access to daemonforge stratagem makes them a pretty appealing choice now. Compared to a melee-dread which is about the same points, theyre faster, have 4 more wounds, a 5++ and can heal themselves, with the downside of degenerating stats and worse accuracy (which can be curbed with demonfroge or a nearby apostle).
Even against bloodslaughterers, their extra toughness and points are good enough to make them comparable.
Not sure why you would ever take magmacutters though, they seem pretty terrible and overcosted still.
Also, defilers got an extra attack!
What are people arming them with? I'd take the twin h-flamers, but I like melee too much to give up the scourge. Twin bolter just seems flat out better than the reaper now that they decided it's the weeniest of autocannons.
Actually, since CP are shared over the entire army. Take two minimum Battalions of Slaanesh Chaos Daemons. For instance 3 units of 10 Daemonettes and a Herald in a seeker chariot for 356 pts each; for 6 CP and 60 Obsec troops. Only 712 pts which leaves plenty of points for a Emperor's Children Vanguard detachment for you Noise Marines, Terminators, and Sonic Dreadnoughts.
McGibs wrote: Maulerfiends getting cheaper and choppier and also having access to daemonforge stratagem makes them a pretty appealing choice now.
Agreed. I'm actually wondering if they don't stack up adequately even to the insane ball of stats that are Giant Chaos Spawn. Spawn are half the cost and have greater potential upside if you roll well, but the Maulerfiend would definitely be the more consistent choice. More wounds and daemonic bonuses working in favor of the Spawn, but Maulerfiend auto regens a wound each turn, has a better 3+ armor save, and toughness 7 vs 5 is certainly not nothing. 10 attacks base (with Lasher Tendrils) that all have at least -2 AP and 2 damage is quite impressive. Maulerfiends should be considerably faster, starting with a base 10" move and needing to lose more than 1 wound (unlike the Spawn) before the movement stat starts to degrade. Further, their being a Heretic Astartes model means you can launch them forward with Warp Time, a definite plus. Finally, the model is WAY cheaper to buy, which is the largest stumbling block for Giant Chaos Spawn right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, they didn't waste any time....
Index Chaos errata includes the new point cost for the daemon troops, as well as the change to Brims/Blue Horrors casting Smite. Also included is permission for Thousand Sons psykers as well as Be'lakor, to use the newly expanded Dark Hereticus discipline.
Dr. Temujin wrote: Some of my thoughts upon reading through the codex a few times:
1. Struggling to think of a reason why you would take Raptors over Warp Talons, since Talons are cheaper, and much more useful in melee?
2. Speaking of which, I think a good tactic would be to Deep-Strike Talons with a Jump-Pack Sorcerer, give them Warp Time, and watch as the intended enemy target turns into meat sauce pasta.
I've been taking 3 axes and 2 PF on a unit of 5. I feel it gives them enough punch to deal with heavy infantry and vehicles, along with combi-plasma.
Raptors are, kinda sadly, better for quick strike shooty units IMHO. I run them with 2x Melta Guns and a Combia Melta, run them in close, and fry a dude or two, hopefully forcing around a -3 morale test. If I time it right and they do this right as Chaos Spawn hit the enemy unit, they're at a -4 ld before the Spawn even kill anybody.
I have not looked closely at warp talons in the new codex yet (mainly cause my ltd edition one got lost in the friggin mail somewhere.) Did their points or stat line change any? previously they were just too pricey to be overly effective, especiall with only 2 attacks.
I just ran my termies as combi-plasma with powerfists. The rest of my army really lacks multi-damage CCW's, so I like having the D3 wounds ability to drop in there.
PS: Wulfen, even only a squad of 5, are pretty friggin nasty.
Sersi wrote: Actually, since CP are shared over the entire army. Take two minimum Battalions of Slaanesh Chaos Daemons. For instance 3 units of 10 Daemonettes and a Herald in a seeker chariot for 356 pts each; for 6 CP and 60 Obsec troops. Only 712 pts which leaves plenty of points for a Emperor's Children Vanguard detachment for you Noise Marines, Terminators, and Sonic Dreadnoughts.
You can actually get a pretty good brigade in chaos space marines now that fits in 2000pts, at 2500 you can drop the 3 singular spawn for raptors to support the terminator bomb).
HQ 321
Chaos Lord – 80 (Combi-bolter, power sword) (Mark of slaanesh)
Chaos terminator Lord – 115 (Terminator Armour, Combi-Bolter, Lightning claw) (Mark of slaanesh)
Chaos Sorcerer – 126 (Jump Pack, bolt pistol, force sword)
Elites 850
10 Terminators – 550 (10 Combi Plasma, 10 Lightning claws, Icon of excess) (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Sonic Hellbrute – 150 (Power scourge, twin Blastmaster) (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Sonic Hellbrute – 150 (Power scourge, twin Blastmaster) (Mark of slaanesh)
Troops 240
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
Fast Attack 99
1 Chaos Spawn – 33 (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Chaos Spawn – 33 (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Chaos Spawn – 33 (Mark of slaanesh)
Heavy Support 490
5 Havocs – 165 (x4 Missile Launcher) (Mark of slaanesh)
5 Havocs – 165 (x4 Missile Launcher) (Mark of slaanesh)
5 Havocs – 160 (x3 Missile Launcher, 1Autocannon) (Mark of slaanesh)
doc1234 wrote: How are you finding the use of singular chaos spawn for bumping out slots? Don't they just vanish into red paste once they get looked at ?
They're relatively tough, and I like the fact that if you're trying to kill one, you're not shooting something else, like a tac squad. I've also not seen anyone put out enough damage in overwatch to kill one as it charges, so I use them as my overwatch absorbing first charges. They're remarkably pesky for only 33 points.
HeavenLord wrote: Is Magnus now a must have in any Chaos list ? I perosnally expect a nerf when the TS codex will be realeased, he is just a beast to stick like this...
He's pretty good but not an auto-include, he's still quite a point sink and works best in a TS/Tzeentch army. I can imagine a lot of tournaments are going to see Magnus + the Changeling surrounded by Brimstone Horrors cause who doesn't love a T7 18W model with a 3++ save, re-rolling 1s, and a -1 to hit him? It would take about 69 BS3+ Lascannons to kill him in such a list.
Raptors are, kinda sadly, better for quick strike shooty units IMHO. I run them with 2x Melta Guns and a Combia Melta, run them in close, and fry a dude or two, hopefully forcing around a -3 morale test. If I time it right and they do this right as Chaos Spawn hit the enemy unit, they're at a -4 ld before the Spawn even kill anybody.
I have not looked closely at warp talons in the new codex yet (mainly cause my ltd edition one got lost in the friggin mail somewhere.) Did their points or stat line change any? previously they were just too pricey to be overly effective, especiall with only 2 attacks.
Raptors cost about 17 points, whilst Warp Talons are only 15. Lightning Claws also dropped a point, so a pair is 12, for a total of 27 per.
Okay, so I forgot to factor in the cost of the Claws, themselves.
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason NOT to take Magnus, at this point. A little more than two Daemon Princes (who are some of our best, most efficient units) isn't what I'd consider a point sink, and he hits dramatically harder than said princes. He can't hide behind other models, but punching through that boosted invul save on a T7 model is not going to be fun. And you better have an effective screen because with his speed, he's going to be in your lines VERY quickly.
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason NOT to take Magnus, at this point. A little more than two Daemon Princes (who are some of our best, most efficient units) isn't what I'd consider a point sink, and he hits dramatically harder than said princes. He can't hide behind other models, but punching through that boosted invul save on a T7 model is not going to be fun. And you better have an effective screen because with his speed, he's going to be in your lines VERY quickly.
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason NOT to take Magnus, at this point. A little more than two Daemon Princes (who are some of our best, most efficient units) isn't what I'd consider a point sink, and he hits dramatically harder than said princes. He can't hide behind other models, but punching through that boosted invul save on a T7 model is not going to be fun. And you better have an effective screen because with his speed, he's going to be in your lines VERY quickly.
Is "I don't play Tzeentch" a good enough reason?
NO! He's a Lord of War, he gets his own detachment.
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason NOT to take Magnus, at this point. A little more than two Daemon Princes (who are some of our best, most efficient units) isn't what I'd consider a point sink, and he hits dramatically harder than said princes. He can't hide behind other models, but punching through that boosted invul save on a T7 model is not going to be fun. And you better have an effective screen because with his speed, he's going to be in your lines VERY quickly.
Is "I don't play Tzeentch" a good enough reason?
NO! He's a Lord of War, he gets his own detachment.
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason NOT to take Magnus, at this point. A little more than two Daemon Princes (who are some of our best, most efficient units) isn't what I'd consider a point sink, and he hits dramatically harder than said princes. He can't hide behind other models, but punching through that boosted invul save on a T7 model is not going to be fun. And you better have an effective screen because with his speed, he's going to be in your lines VERY quickly.
Is "I don't play Tzeentch" a good enough reason?
NO! He's a Lord of War, he gets his own detachment.
But I don't play Tzeentch.
And I don't like taxes but you gotta do what you gotta do!! Get out there and win for chaos, soldier!
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason NOT to take Magnus, at this point. A little more than two Daemon Princes (who are some of our best, most efficient units) isn't what I'd consider a point sink, and he hits dramatically harder than said princes. He can't hide behind other models, but punching through that boosted invul save on a T7 model is not going to be fun. And you better have an effective screen because with his speed, he's going to be in your lines VERY quickly.
Is "I don't play Tzeentch" a good enough reason?
NO! He's a Lord of War, he gets his own detachment.
But I don't play Tzeentch.
And I don't like taxes but you gotta do what you gotta do!! Get out there and win for chaos, soldier!
Who said we have to pay taxes?
Also, check the W/L in the sig: Khorne don't need no Tzeentchy shenanigans!
I'm Daemons for life, but I've been fiddling with this idea for awhile now and would like some feedback from you CSM folks.
Word Bearers batallion, 3x Sorcerers with jump packs, 3x 40 cultists blobs.
Second batallion, Changeling, Daemon Prince w/ wings and claws, 3x 10 Brimstones, and some exalted Flamers
Supreme Command w/ 5 Malefic lords
Leaves 2-300pts for summoning. You deep strike the sorcerers between 1-3 and summon a huge blob of daemons w/ dark pact, while bouncing the cultists around with the cultists Stratagem.
Basically it's a very large CSM horde with Daemon backup for a smaller horde/smites.
I think you'd have to have a pretty compelling reason NOT to take Magnus, at this point. A little more than two Daemon Princes (who are some of our best, most efficient units) isn't what I'd consider a point sink, and he hits dramatically harder than said princes. He can't hide behind other models, but punching through that boosted invul save on a T7 model is not going to be fun. And you better have an effective screen because with his speed, he's going to be in your lines VERY quickly.
Is "I don't play Tzeentch" a good enough reason?
NO! He's a Lord of War, he gets his own detachment.
But I don't play Tzeentch.
This. I have very HH style, "clean" (no demons, mutations etc) warband of Night Lords. We dont get dirty with ruined fallen worshipper on warp steroids. We get dirty with our own ways. Ave dominus nox!
Lord Commissar wrote: So, Magnus can't use weaver of fates (Also, fateweaver doesnt have this power?!? ) because he doesnt have a MoT?
If thats the case, does he need a jetpack sorc to try and keep up?
We discussed this about a page ago: there is no such thing as a MARK OF TZEENTCH keyword, the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword is replaced by KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH or SLAANESH.
Magnus isn't even that good, he will normally eat several missile launcher on turn 1 and die before he accomplishes anything.
If he does survive or the ignore him he is a beast but that never happens people aren't stupid the same would happen to guliman if not for his blasted 9 wounds.
I would like some more info on the Maulerfiend vs Bloodslaughtere debate, I was just getting ready to hop on FW when I read about the Maulerfiends update. Does anyone have any experience using either/both or any math to throw my way. Beforebit seemed clear that Bloodslaughters were the winners in the CC walker contest, but now im not so sure. Also, is the impaler worth it on the Bloodslaughter?
HeavenLord wrote: Is Magnus now a must have in any Chaos list ? I perosnally expect a nerf when the TS codex will be realeased, he is just a beast to stick like this...
He's pretty good but not an auto-include, he's still quite a point sink and works best in a TS/Tzeentch army. I can imagine a lot of tournaments are going to see Magnus + the Changeling surrounded by Brimstone Horrors cause who doesn't love a T7 18W model with a 3++ save, re-rolling 1s, and a -1 to hit him? It would take about 69 BS3+ Lascannons to kill him in such a list.
Being the grand daddy of like all psykers, I could actually see them letting him choose form 1ksons powers AND hereticus powers once their dex comes out because otherwise people would have to get an entirely new codex just to find out what Magnus' new powers are if he was their only 1ksons unit, which isn't really GW's MO.
But yes he was absolutely an auto include before the FAQ dropped. The changeling + 3 brims units + whatever HQ you want is just way too good to not go for competitively (typically it's a 30 point malefic lord FWIW). 3 CP and makes Magnus an even bigger monster and essentially impossible to kill.
The one nice thing I'll say though, is that Chaos has so many fun options that are also really good that you don't NEED Magnus to win games. Will he help? Absolutely. But you don't NEED him. Enjoy the new golden age of Chaos. Death to the false emperor! (I swear I'll actually remember to use that rule one of these games...)
Rydria wrote: Magnus isn't even that good, he will normally eat several missile launcher on turn 1 and die before he accomplishes anything.
If he does survive or the ignore him he is a beast but that never happens people aren't stupid the same would happen to guliman if not for his blasted 9 wounds.
But I believe they are refering to a Magnus with a 3++ save, re-rolling 1s and a -1 to hit aura from the Changeling, as I said before, that takes about 69 lascannons to bring him down. You could also have him supported by several units of Alpha Legion, Tzeentch oblits who would then have a -2 to hit them. Then make a nice cushion of a Brimstone Horror Brigade who also have -1 to hit, with whatever points you have left, spam cheap psykers for ALL the smite.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I would like some more info on the Maulerfiend vs Bloodslaughtere debate, I was just getting ready to hop on FW when I read about the Maulerfiends update. Does anyone have any experience using either/both or any math to throw my way. Beforebit seemed clear that Bloodslaughters were the winners in the CC walker contest, but now im not so sure. Also, is the impaler worth it on the Bloodslaughter?
Short of the fact that not everyone plays khorne, I can't think of anything the maulerfiend explictly excels at vs the bloodslaughterer.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I would like some more info on the Maulerfiend vs Bloodslaughtere debate, I was just getting ready to hop on FW when I read about the Maulerfiends update. Does anyone have any experience using either/both or any math to throw my way. Beforebit seemed clear that Bloodslaughters were the winners in the CC walker contest, but now im not so sure. Also, is the impaler worth it on the Bloodslaughter?
Maulerfiends, or Dinobots as I like to call them, are actually pretty good. Give them mark of Tzeentch in an alpha legion army. Stand next to the changeling. Prescience. Spend 1 cp to never miss or fail to wound. Profit.
As soon as I find a model that I actually want to use for one, I'll probably try them out (played in an extremely competitive RTT this weekend and there were 3, and I played against all of them). They're good
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Rydria wrote: Magnus isn't even that good, he will normally eat several missile launcher on turn 1 and die before he accomplishes anything.
If he does survive or the ignore him he is a beast but that never happens people aren't stupid the same would happen to guliman if not for his blasted 9 wounds.
Yeah I can promise that this doesn't happen as often as you make it sound. Those lascannons need 4's to hit, 3's to wound, and then he saves everything except a 2 (and a 1 that re-rolls into a 1 or 2). He can also re-roll 1 save of a 2 each turn. It's actually a pretty ridiculous defensive capability, especially because every lascannon shot that even gets through only does 3.5 wounds on average.
People who fly Magnus forward into situations that get him killed are people who don't know how to play Magnus.
Even setting aside the Changeling and Weaver of Fate buffs, just going off his raw statline it would take like 21 BS 3+ Missile Launcher shots to kill Magnus. So I think he was engaging in some pretty gross hyperbole. Or he needs some new dice in the worst way possible.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I would like some more info on the Maulerfiend vs Bloodslaughtere debate, I was just getting ready to hop on FW when I read about the Maulerfiends update. Does anyone have any experience using either/both or any math to throw my way. Beforebit seemed clear that Bloodslaughters were the winners in the CC walker contest, but now im not so sure. Also, is the impaler worth it on the Bloodslaughter?
Maulerfiends, or Dinobots as I like to call them, are actually pretty good. Give them mark of Tzeentch in an alpha legion army. Stand next to the changeling. Prescience. Spend 1 cp to never miss or fail to wound. Profit.
As soon as I find a model that I actually want to use for one, I'll probably try them out (played in an extremely competitive RTT this weekend and there were 3, and I played against all of them). They're good
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Rydria wrote: Magnus isn't even that good, he will normally eat several missile launcher on turn 1 and die before he accomplishes anything.
If he does survive or the ignore him he is a beast but that never happens people aren't stupid the same would happen to guliman if not for his blasted 9 wounds.
Yeah I can promise that this doesn't happen as often as you make it sound. Those lascannons need 4's to hit, 3's to wound, and then he saves everything except a 2 (and a 1 that re-rolls into a 1 or 2). He can also re-roll 1 save of a 2 each turn. It's actually a pretty ridiculous defensive capability, especially because every lascannon shot that even gets through only does 3.5 wounds on average.
People who fly Magnus forward into situations that get him killed are people who don't know how to play Magnus.
This is coming from the gentleman in the daemon thread i believe it was Cephalobeard, who mentioned it as something a top 8/16 player experienced enough for him to consider dropping Magnus, it is also something he himself has experienced Magnus dies allot on turn 1/2 armies are packing allot of firepower.
I've personally never used magnus since I only play Slaanesh armies.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: I would like some more info on the Maulerfiend vs Bloodslaughtere debate, I was just getting ready to hop on FW when I read about the Maulerfiends update. Does anyone have any experience using either/both or any math to throw my way. Beforebit seemed clear that Bloodslaughters were the winners in the CC walker contest, but now im not so sure. Also, is the impaler worth it on the Bloodslaughter?
Maulerfiends, or Dinobots as I like to call them, are actually pretty good. Give them mark of Tzeentch in an alpha legion army. Stand next to the changeling. Prescience. Spend 1 cp to never miss or fail to wound. Profit.
As soon as I find a model that I actually want to use for one, I'll probably try them out (played in an extremely competitive RTT this weekend and there were 3, and I played against all of them). They're good
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Rydria wrote: Magnus isn't even that good, he will normally eat several missile launcher on turn 1 and die before he accomplishes anything.
If he does survive or the ignore him he is a beast but that never happens people aren't stupid the same would happen to guliman if not for his blasted 9 wounds.
Yeah I can promise that this doesn't happen as often as you make it sound. Those lascannons need 4's to hit, 3's to wound, and then he saves everything except a 2 (and a 1 that re-rolls into a 1 or 2). He can also re-roll 1 save of a 2 each turn. It's actually a pretty ridiculous defensive capability, especially because every lascannon shot that even gets through only does 3.5 wounds on average.
People who fly Magnus forward into situations that get him killed are people who don't know how to play Magnus.
This is coming from the gentleman in the daemon thread i believe it was Cephalobeard, who mentioned it as something a top 16 player experienced allot enough for him to consider dropping Magnus, it is also something he himself has experienced Magnus dies allot on turn 1/2 armies are packing allot of firepower.
Yes. That is me, and yes, that is the opinion they gave pre-codex buff.
One of the benefits of the Maulerfiends over the Bloodslaughteres is that they can be targeted by the god specific powers; improve inv, -1 to hit, or +5 FnP. These can be effected by herald buffs too right?
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: One of the benefits of the Maulerfiends over the Bloodslaughteres is that they can be targeted by the god specific powers; improve inv, -1 to hit, or +5 FnP. These can be effected by herald buffs too right?
This is also why I feel that Lord of Skulls is much better than renegade knight now with its decrease in points. Lord of skulls can benefit from being part of the same legion because it has the legion and heretic astartes keyword. Lord of skulls also have the Khorne keyword. So, this means that characters of the same legion can lend their auras to the lord of skulls and this means that even a daemon prince of Khorne of a different legion can also still lend its reroll to hit on 1 aura to the LOS because both are Khorne Daemons. (LOS is a daemon). And statline wise, a LOS is better than a renegade knight. Also, LOS can benefit from use of CSM strategems like daemoforge while the renegade knight cannot.
Anyone got any ideas about running a daemon bomb type list? I run Word Bearers and am thinking that summoning 30 bloodletters right on top of someone will be an enjoyable experience. The biggest issue is that it's hard to get in position for a turn 2 summon without getting yourself killed. I'm thinking a flying DP or jump pack sorceror are the best options, because anyone in a transport can't summon after they disembark.
doc1234 wrote: How are you finding the use of singular chaos spawn for bumping out slots? Don't they just vanish into red paste once they get looked at ?
They're relatively tough, and I like the fact that if you're trying to kill one, you're not shooting something else, like a tac squad. I've also not seen anyone put out enough damage in overwatch to kill one as it charges, so I use them as my overwatch absorbing first charges. They're remarkably pesky for only 33 points.
I'm liking this, plus it ought to be noted that they are the cheapest unit in our Codex and can block landing zones. In fact if we want more HQs than the minimum for the rest of the army, there's things to be said for two or three Spawn grabbing an extra CP.
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saint_red wrote: Anyone got any ideas about running a daemon bomb type list? I run Word Bearers and am thinking that summoning 30 bloodletters right on top of someone will be an enjoyable experience. The biggest issue is that it's hard to get in position for a turn 2 summon without getting yourself killed. I'm thinking a flying DP or jump pack sorceror are the best options, because anyone in a transport can't summon after they disembark.
Dreadclaw with Slaaneshi Possessed and a Sorcerer with Delightful Agonies, that's 18 Wounds the enemy have to get past 3+/5++ & FNP and 10 they have to get past T7 & 3+ before they are allowed to target the character. Throw in Warptime as well, and either of those units will also wreak havoc on arrival. Throw in a second DC with Plasma Chosen and a Lord for a second Summoner who can bring out the Bloodletters, and a deep insertion force it's almost impossible to get through in a single turn to kill the summoners.
Bonus - if you don't have anything else to cast it on, the Sorcerer can Warptime himself forwards after summoning.
Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range thats with the -1 from the changling.Gulliman gets hit with that spell and he laughs as your forced to shoot at his tac marines instead. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he won't lost the turn.
I'm Daemons for life, but I've been fiddling with this idea for awhile now and would like some feedback from you CSM folks.
Word Bearers batallion, 3x Sorcerers with jump packs, 3x 40 cultists blobs.
Second batallion, Changeling, Daemon Prince w/ wings and claws, 3x 10 Brimstones, and some exalted Flamers
Supreme Command w/ 5 Malefic lords
Leaves 2-300pts for summoning. You deep strike the sorcerers between 1-3 and summon a huge blob of daemons w/ dark pact, while bouncing the cultists around with the cultists Stratagem.
Basically it's a very large CSM horde with Daemon backup for a smaller horde/smites.
Opinion?
How many Exalted Flamers? You could get another CP by putting them in a detachment with one of the Malefic Lords...
I'm certainly interested in hearing how this turns out, it's such an unorthodox list it's difficult to assess. It does seem to cover a lot of bases. Probably going to struggle when opponents deny Cultists entry points in their rear...
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.
So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:
1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power
1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.
2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.
3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.
Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.
Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: One of the benefits of the Maulerfiends over the Bloodslaughteres is that they can be targeted by the god specific powers; improve inv, -1 to hit, or +5 FnP. These can be effected by herald buffs too right?
This is also why I feel that Lord of Skulls is much better than renegade knight now with its decrease in points. Lord of skulls can benefit from being part of the same legion because it has the legion and heretic astartes keyword. Lord of skulls also have the Khorne keyword. So, this means that characters of the same legion can lend their auras to the lord of skulls and this means that even a daemon prince of Khorne of a different legion can also still lend its reroll to hit on 1 aura to the LOS because both are Khorne Daemons. (LOS is a daemon). And statline wise, a LOS is better than a renegade knight. Also, LOS can benefit from use of CSM strategems like daemoforge while the renegade knight cannot.
All good points, and if you really want a knight, just run a kytan for all the reasons you list for the LOS.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.
So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:
1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power
1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.
2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.
3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.
Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.
Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.
Yeah, Guilliman lists probably won't be doing any of this. Sisters of Silence on the other hand... guaranteed to shut down even Magnus.
saint_red wrote: Anyone got any ideas about running a daemon bomb type list? I run Word Bearers and am thinking that summoning 30 bloodletters right on top of someone will be an enjoyable experience. The biggest issue is that it's hard to get in position for a turn 2 summon without getting yourself killed. I'm thinking a flying DP or jump pack sorceror are the best options, because anyone in a transport can't summon after they disembark.
Dreadclaw with Slaaneshi Possessed and a Sorcerer with Delightful Agonies, that's 18 Wounds the enemy have to get past 3+/5++ & FNP and 10 they have to get past T7 & 3+ before they are allowed to target the character. Throw in Warptime as well, and either of those units will also wreak havoc on arrival. Throw in a second DC with Plasma Chosen and a Lord for a second Summoner who can bring out the Bloodletters, and a deep insertion force it's almost impossible to get through in a single turn to kill the summoners.
Bonus - if you don't have anything else to cast it on, the Sorcerer can Warptime himself forwards after summoning.
Ooh I hadn't really thought about using a dreadclaw and I think that's an excellent idea. The second dreadclaw bomb sounds good too but I've got some plasma terminators who are filling that role for the time being.
Another cool idea is to summon in a Slaaneshi Herald to cast Hysterical Frenzy on the Possessed if they are still in combat in the following turn.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: One of the benefits of the Maulerfiends over the Bloodslaughteres is that they can be targeted by the god specific powers; improve inv, -1 to hit, or +5 FnP. These can be effected by herald buffs too right?
This is also why I feel that Lord of Skulls is much better than renegade knight now with its decrease in points. Lord of skulls can benefit from being part of the same legion because it has the legion and heretic astartes keyword. Lord of skulls also have the Khorne keyword. So, this means that characters of the same legion can lend their auras to the lord of skulls and this means that even a daemon prince of Khorne of a different legion can also still lend its reroll to hit on 1 aura to the LOS because both are Khorne Daemons. (LOS is a daemon). And statline wise, a LOS is better than a renegade knight. Also, LOS can benefit from use of CSM strategems like daemoforge while the renegade knight cannot.
All good points, and if you really want a knight, just run a kytan for all the reasons you list for the LOS.
Probably still better to run a LoS at that point since ravanger is 514 and los is I believe 607. Extra wounds, more attacks. He's almost so big unless you have a ton of anti tank he won't die in a game. Just have to make sure he scores you enough kills back or becomes enough of a threat your opponent keeps targeting him and leaves your other guys alone
How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.
It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.
So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:
1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power
1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.
2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.
3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.
Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.
Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.
I wouldn't say every list should take Magnus (he's mostly a big target in... I think it's Cephalobeard's list, for example, since that list revolves around having so many small characters nothing is a target) but he's certainly a lot better than TSS claims, which is largely the case with anything Thousand Sons related he talks about.
Being targeted is a huge issue that does leave him to just die on turn 1, I'm not gonna dispute this because it has happened to me personally, but to claim that Weaver of Fates isn't a huge boon that almost entirely fixes this issue is absurd. Having a 3+ reroll 1's save against everything is absurd, and yes, as you said if you let WoF be denied on turn 1 that's just absolutely terrible positioning on your part.
Rydria wrote: How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.
It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.
Well, LOS is more durable because it has more wounds. I have seen shooty lists take out a land raider in one turn. But have yet to see shooting take out a LOS within one turn. It would have to be a really shooty list.
Rydria wrote: How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.
It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.
Well, LOS is more durable because it has more wounds. I have seen shooty lists take out a land raider in one turn. But have yet to see shooting take out a LOS within one turn. It would have to be a really shooty list.
In a tournament I was just playing in, we had a Necron player use a Pylon to blow up a Shadowsword with just one shot. I can't imagine that the Lord of Skulls would fare much better against something like that. But your point stands.
They don't have the Legion Keyword and the Legion Trait says:
"If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment
is from the same Legion.The Legion Trait gained depends upon the Legion they are
from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, allsuch unitsin a NIGHT LORDS Detachment gain... "
This means my Detachment loses the Legion Trait when i put demons as troops into it?
They don't have the Legion Keyword and the Legion Trait says:
"If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment
is from the same Legion.The Legion Trait gained depends upon the Legion they are
from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, allsuch unitsin a NIGHT LORDS Detachment gain... "
This means my Detachment loses the Legion Trait when i put demons as troops into it?
That is correct they'll loose it.
Weird thing is i don't 'think' it applies to reserve points that you then use to summon daemons
Summoned reserves arent part of detachments so that's fine. The only reason daemons are in the chaos marine dex is so you can use summoning abilities without buying a different book.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range thats with the -1 from the changling.Gulliman gets hit with that spell and he laughs as your forced to shoot at his tac marines instead. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he won't lost the turn.
MegaMags get 2+ on his deny and I'd spend a CP to re-roll that too...
MegaMags is gross now. Can't wait to play him in a tourney in a few weeks! Along with Aetaos and a few Giant Spawns...
saint_red wrote: Anyone got any ideas about running a daemon bomb type list? I run Word Bearers and am thinking that summoning 30 bloodletters right on top of someone will be an enjoyable experience. The biggest issue is that it's hard to get in position for a turn 2 summon without getting yourself killed. I'm thinking a flying DP or jump pack sorceror are the best options, because anyone in a transport can't summon after they disembark.
Dreadclaw with Slaaneshi Possessed and a Sorcerer with Delightful Agonies, that's 18 Wounds the enemy have to get past 3+/5++ & FNP and 10 they have to get past T7 & 3+ before they are allowed to target the character. Throw in Warptime as well, and either of those units will also wreak havoc on arrival. Throw in a second DC with Plasma Chosen and a Lord for a second Summoner who can bring out the Bloodletters, and a deep insertion force it's almost impossible to get through in a single turn to kill the summoners.
Bonus - if you don't have anything else to cast it on, the Sorcerer can Warptime himself forwards after summoning.
Ooh I hadn't really thought about using a dreadclaw and I think that's an excellent idea. The second dreadclaw bomb sounds good too but I've got some plasma terminators who are filling that role for the time being.
Another cool idea is to summon in a Slaaneshi Herald to cast Hysterical Frenzy on the Possessed if they are still in combat in the following turn.
Hmm, that'd require either postponing the Daemon bomb or having a second character in play. I think there's things to be said for bringing a Herald in this list, put her on a Steed and pay a Troops tax with some Nurglings, and if you successfully Warptime the Possessed she can make their alpha strike S6 - marginal, I know, but she can also potentially Summon some Fiends or Seekers or a twin on turn two.
Actually, giving the deployed one Symphony of Pain will give her something to do turn one if she's going to summon a twin.
Additional option: take her in a Supreme Command detachment - Word Bearers Characters don't suffer for not being in a WB detachment, and a bunch of extra Chaos Lords are potent force multipliers.
Final point: I'm working towards a Daemon bomb ploy myself, going to focus on Nurgle with his Oblits and Daemon Engines in play, and bring out Epidemius. In larger games he can easily bring an overwhelming advantage.
Rydria wrote: How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.
It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.
Levi has half as many wounds. 14 compared to LOS at 28. He is for sure more shooty, just have to make sure he cant move or your a 3+ also. More of a light vehicle multi wound infantry killer. Even then, the butcher cannon is so so.
Best use for a levi is alpha legion and have him come in near a character and double soul burner it to try to whipe it out. Could shoot it 3 times. 1 normal, 1 from hellbrute special, 1 from mark of slaanesh. That's 12d3 mortal wounds that work on a 2+. Expensive at 330 ish points but could be good.
Los and Levi are just for different roles so hard to compare. LOS is better in melee, as a much larger threat that can willy nilly charge deep into enemy ranks and absorb more fire
Rydria wrote: How does the hell forged leviathan stack up to the knight and Lord of skulls it seems to have superior ranged firepower especially of fire frenzy works on them.
It also has 98.8% accuracy if supported by a lord due to its 2+ ballistic skill and it is almost as durable as a land raider missing out on a mere 2 wounds (though it does have a 5++/4++ invulnerable save and it can also be buffed with the slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle defensive buff spells.
Levi has half as many wounds. 14 compared to LOS at 28. He is for sure more shooty, just have to make sure he cant move or your a 3+ also. More of a light vehicle multi wound infantry killer. Even then, the butcher cannon is so so.
Best use for a levi is alpha legion and have him come in near a character and double soul burner it to try to whipe it out. Could shoot it 3 times. 1 normal, 1 from hellbrute special, 1 from mark of slaanesh. That's 12d3 mortal wounds that work on a 2+. Expensive at 330 ish points but could be good.
Los and Levi are just for different roles so hard to compare. LOS is better in melee, as a much larger threat that can willy nilly charge deep into enemy ranks and absorb more fire
I still personally think the Levi is a brilliant Horde killer with double Grav-Flux, must I reiterate: 14d3 shots vs 30 man Ork Blob, 22d3 shots vs 50 man Guard blobs and 6d3 shots vs any 10 man unit all at S9 AP-5 D2! How am I the only one seeing the Horde killing potential here?
Levi has half as many wounds. 14 compared to LOS at 28. He is for sure more shooty, just have to make sure he cant move or your a 3+ also. More of a light vehicle multi wound infantry killer. Even then, the butcher cannon is so so.
Best use for a levi is alpha legion and have him come in near a character and double soul burner it to try to whipe it out. Could shoot it 3 times. 1 normal, 1 from hellbrute special, 1 from mark of slaanesh. That's 12d3 mortal wounds that work on a 2+. Expensive at 330 ish points but could be good.
Los and Levi are just for different roles so hard to compare. LOS is better in melee, as a much larger threat that can willy nilly charge deep into enemy ranks and absorb more fire
They definitely do different things. The lord of skulls is close to being competitive with his cost reduction but a maulerfiend is better. The leviathan is pretty shooty but when you double fire, you have to shoot it at the closest target. That kills it competitively. And you can't triple shoot it. The slaanesh stratagem is only for infantry or biker units.
Can anyone give me a reason why I would take combi-melta over plasma on my Terminators? Plasma has more range and double the shots at 12" whilst still doing 2 damage per shot. Crunching the numbers: plasma is better at 24" cause melta isn't in range, plasma is better at 12" because double the shots counters the lower damage and they are about equal at 6". As well as this, because melta is fewer shots, melta is far more likely to be shut down by a one of command re-roll on a save.
mrhappyface wrote: Can anyone give me a reason why I would take combi-melta over plasma on my Terminators? Plasma has more range and double the shots at 12" whilst still doing 2 damage per shot. Crunching the numbers: plasma is better at 24" cause melta isn't in range, plasma is better at 12" because double the shots counters the lower damage and they are about equal at 6". As well as this, because melta is fewer shots, melta is far more likely to be shut down by a one of command re-roll on a save.
Why would I pay more for melta?
I think the general consensus is you wouldn't. Meltas are better when they are within 6, because of better AP and slightly higher damage average, but plasma is more versatile.
Of course, you would normally lose 3 models for overcharging 10 rapid fire plasma, but because of the availibility of rerolls of 1 to hit, plasma users gets to have their cake and eat it too, which kinda leaves melta and grav in the dust.
Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.
Ok, still trying to decide which big heavy hitter to add to my army. Originally was going with a pair of Bloodslaughteres, but then Maulerfiends got an update. Brass scorpion is an amazing model and seems like a solid unit, but its a bit of a point sink. I really dont like the LOS model that much, the katyan is just a much cooler looking piece, but with points drop on the LOS, its hard to pass up now.
Plasma does seem far better than Melta, at close range rolling twice and picking the best is about 4.5W, that said AP-4 has marginal advantages. Probably not enough to compete with Plasma's ability to drop two Primaris or Terminators, though - and there'll even be times when a Melta only puts one wound on a 2W target. TBH I think the availability of rerolls makes their costs unbalanced, that said we've yet to see how many enemy units will end up with hit modifiers.
lascannon havocs, lascannon predator or a defiler ?
Well if it's Alpha Legion the Havocs get a tasty boost to endurance. I'm quite liking the Predator, it's mobility could be handy - both for getting LOS and escaping deep insertion ploys. Defiler seems to occupy a pretty different niche to each of the others? It's more something you castle around and run up to deep insertion forces to flame and punch them. Which can make it more efficient than taking one of the others and a counter-attack unit. Unfortunately it's BS means it will kill fewer tanks if it's concentrating on shooting, and when it's sallying out it's not shooting anything at all. Nice endurance, though. With Oblits and Changeling, it could really be though to take out.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.
Well, if the Maulers are Tzeentchian, they could benefit from Changleing auras and even Weaver, if they're going to be punching a knoght'a lights out there's that. Also they bring resistance to some of the more extreme LoW attacks, I saw one of the big tanks blow up a knight in one shot last week. Whereas if they're Slaaneshi they can get Agonies and Frenzy. Or if Nurglitch, Miasma and Epidemius buffs. So again it depends to an extent what synergy your army presents.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Ok, still trying to decide which big heavy hitter to add to my army. Originally was going with a pair of Bloodslaughteres, but then Maulerfiends got an update. Brass scorpion is an amazing model and seems like a solid unit, but its a bit of a point sink. I really dont like the LOS model that much, the katyan is just a much cooler looking piece, but with points drop on the LOS, its hard to pass up now.
If I had the cash, I'd definitely get a Brass Scorpion. Doesn't matter if it's the competitive option, it just looks too nice.
@lindsay40k my army is khorne-themed iron warriors, so I use world eater tactics. However, I do include some Alpha Legion fire support, always atleast one jump pack sorcerer, and a pair of DPs (1 khorne, the other can be any of the 3). I know the scorpion looks amazing, but it is expensive in both points and real money and I dont really want to buy it if I'm never going to use it.
lascannon havocs, lascannon predator or a defiler ?
Las Havocs with any legion. its very slightly more points then a full las predator but it toss them in cover and you get a 2+ save 10 bodies that don't degrade when they take damage. And you can take 6 damage before you loose a las cannon.
Preds are nice, and yes you can sped a strat to move and fire I believe without the -1 but they are way for frail. 2 Las hits and your pred is pretty screwed.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.
2 Maulerfiends similar price to Lord of Skulls? Uhmm....wanna try again? Maulerfiends are like 152 fully-kitted, just the LoS BODY costs 350, and then you have to buy guns for it....that runs another 250. So a fair comparison is actually 4 Maulerfiends vs a Lord of Skulls.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.
So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:
1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power
1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.
2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.
3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.
Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.
Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.
Okay let me be a little more specific
Your paying 500 points to get the Changling and Magnus.
1 Changling restricts Magnus' movement greatly. If you want to actually benefit from the aura that is.
2 Deny range is 24" Smite is 18" if you want to cast smite on something your going to have to be within deny range.
3 your CP is going to take a hit since your spending 1/3 to 1/4 of your points on 2 models.
4 single fairly cheep models can severly hamper your combo.
5 your going to have to burn an extra spell to keep changling up with Magnus.
6 The fact that your relying on 2 different things to keep you alive and increases the probablity of something failing.
All of those things combined means something will fall apart, there are too many areas where your opponet can attack your army and succeed at disrupting your plans.
Keep in mind the fact that he can't hide means when these things fail your enemy WILL capitalize on them.
Anybody trying renegate helbrutes? M8 dreadnoughts that can charge after advancing seems scary. Hand them a scourge and something else either a cheap gun to save points or a fist for that free attack.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Magnus is still not very good, compare Magnus to Gulliman. Gulliman can hide behind bodies to avoid being smacked with bigger weapons. Magnus cannot. Further more the Spell which prevents models from using thier invul save makes Magnus a 400+ point sitting duck who will die from just 16 BS 3+ Lascannons or 12 Melta shots inside melta range. Not to mention to get that 3++ rerolling 1s you need to get a spell off if it gets denied or you just fail to cast your durability suffers. Simply put to get Magnus to that level of durability you have too many things that can go wrong, and when one thig does he womt lost the turn.
So your argument for Magnus being bad is that:
1) he can be targeted
2) he might lose his invulnerable save
3) he might not cast his +1 save power
1) you're right. He can be targeted. At great cost and in a horribly inefficient way. I'm not saying you shouldn't shoot at him, but if you try, expect it to take multiple turns at minimum and for it to be very difficult. The problem with this line of thinking is that you do it in a vacuum. What makes you think that the Chaos player won't kill the very things that can kill Magnus? Is the only thing in a Chaos list that you have to care about Magnus? Then great you win on turn 3 most likely! But if there are other things that you HAVE to deal with (hi berserkers) or things that are going to kill your long range firepower (hi berserkers) before turn 3, then maybe killing Magnus won't be as easy as you think.
2) So this means that you're casting a psychic power within 24" of Magnus. Good luck with that. Hope he decides not to try and deny that with a +2 bonus.
3) So this means that you're counting on him to fail with +2 to cast and a CP re-roll if need be, without you being able to deny if he doesn't want you to. He has more than enough mobility to cast from outside your deny range.
Wouldn't go placing any bets on these things my friend.
Having played at the same event as two Chaos players this weekend who are almost certainly going to be playing for the big prize on day 3 at NOVA, I can say with certainty that he's good enough to be in every player's tournament list. They would have taken him without a second thought even if he didn't get access to the new psychic powers. Now it's even better for Magnus. Ask the 3-peat adepticon champion I played in round 1 if you doubt me.
Okay let me be a little more specific
Your paying 500 points to get the Changling and Magnus.
1 Changling restricts Magnus' movement greatly. If you want to actually benefit from the aura that is.
2 Deny range is 24" Smite is 18" if you want to cast smite on something your going to have to be within deny range.
3 your CP is going to take a hit since your spending 1/3 to 1/4 of your points on 2 models.
4 single fairly cheep models can severly hamper your combo.
5 your going to have to burn an extra spell to keep changling up with Magnus.
6 The fact that your relying on 2 different things to keep you alive and increases the probablity of something failing.
All of those things combined means something will fall apart, there are too many areas where your opponet can attack your army and succeed at disrupting your plans.
Keep in mind the fact that he can't hide means when these things fail your enemy WILL capitalize on them.
To me, the issue isn't quite "can Magnus be killed." Of course he can be killed (although it's not as easy for Imperium forces to strip him of his Inv save as it is for Chaos forces to do the same to Guilliman; any Magnus player who lets an Imperium psyker get close enough to him to cast Null Zone needs a spanking from Tzeentch). The question should be, "Can Magnus reliably wreck enough of the enemy to make his points back before he gets blown away by massed fire?" That, of course, depends on the army you're facing and your respective skill levels. I will say that with his opening +2 to casting rolls, his inherent speed on the table, and the tasty powers in the newly-expanded Dark Hereticus, Magnus has quite a lot of tools at his disposal. The Changeling is certainly nice, if you can swing it, but not absolutely necessary.
The one change I would make to him, which I hope GW does in the codex, is to make him immune to Perils again (or only make him suffer Perils if he rolls snake eyes).
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Would a pair of maulerfiends compare to LOS? Similar price, but obviously no shooting on them. With their update, they have solid damage. I'm wondering if the speed of the Blood Slaughterer is worth taking it over maulerfiends. 2 of them is a little over a LOS, but still close.
2 Maulerfiends similar price to Lord of Skulls? Uhmm....wanna try again? Maulerfiends are like 152 fully-kitted, just the LoS BODY costs 350, and then you have to buy guns for it....that runs another 250. So a fair comparison is actually 4 Maulerfiends vs a Lord of Skulls.
Oh wow, I was thinking ir dropped to 350 total. Nvm then LOS is out for me. Still trying to decide between maulerfiends and Bloodslaughteres. Right now they are about the same cost in dollars, atleast where I'm at in cali (the maulefiend kit is $70!)
lascannon havocs, lascannon predator or a defiler ?
Havocs if you're running AL or another Legion with a strat that will help them. I'd also take Havocs if I had limited points.
I really want to try out a triple Las-Pred list: that strategem (Killshot) looks so tasty! Las wounding any tank (short of a titan) on a 2+ and doing 1+d6 damage per shot! Not tried it yet but someone should.
Your paying 500 points to get the Changling and Magnus.
1 Changling restricts Magnus' movement greatly. If you want to actually benefit from the aura that is.
2 Deny range is 24" Smite is 18" if you want to cast smite on something your going to have to be within deny range.
3 your CP is going to take a hit since your spending 1/3 to 1/4 of your points on 2 models.
4 single fairly cheep models can severly hamper your combo.
5 your going to have to burn an extra spell to keep changling up with Magnus.
6 The fact that your relying on 2 different things to keep you alive and increases the probablity of something failing.
All of those things combined means something will fall apart, there are too many areas where your opponet can attack your army and succeed at disrupting your plans.
Keep in mind the fact that he can't hide means when these things fail your enemy WILL capitalize on them.
You're working really hard to push a point here, but you're either omitting facts or being a bit willfully obtuse in twisting them to support your thesis.
I'm paying 500 points for an amazing beatstick character and probably the best defensive buffing character in the game. If you play Tzeentch, Changeling goes in your list. Automatically. More so than Magnus, because Changeling can significantly improve the durability of your entire army. Magnus is just another beneficiary, it's not like Changeling is there JUST for Magnus.
1) Changeling isn't meant to buff Magnus for the entire game, so no, he doesn't hamper Magnus' movement. Changeling is there to help Magnus survive an alpha strike. In all likelihood, Magnus will be within Changeling's bubble for 1 turn. Anything more than that is gravy, because between his natural move and Warp Time, Magnus moves 32" and then charges. He will almost always be engaged within 1 turn. After Magnus flies off, Changeling is still buffing the rest of your army. If they move up to keep pace with Magnus, awesome, but otherwise you're still good.
2) Not seeing a correlation here. Smite requires you to be within 18" of an enemy model, Deny requires 24" of the caster. Pretty sure you can maneuver to avoid the psyker and still be in range of other stuff to Smite. And I don't think Magnus' Smite is the only option you have for dealing with an enemy psyker. But even if you want to assume it is, Magnus gets 3 Deny attempts per turn, with a +2 to his rolls to start, and for a critical power like one denying him his Invul save, you're going to save a command point. The odds are probably in his favor for that though again, that's purely if you want to let your opponent dictate to you rather than use actual strategy.
3) Hey bro, have you heard of these things called Brimstone Horrors? They're new and kinda relevant to the command point issue. Spending 500 points on Changeling and Magnus doesn't impair your command points when you can fill out 6 Troop slots for 180 points, and a lot of Chaos' best stuff comes in the HQ slot (like Changeling!). Chaos lists can easily manage 2 Battalions and a Supreme Command to fit Magnus, giving you 10 command points.
4) For example? Gotta love a bullet point that presents no argument whatsoever.
5) No you're not. I already addressed Changeling not being required to keep up with Magnus above, but also as Changeling is not Heretic Astartes, you couldn't Warp Time him along in the first place. Know rules first, then argue.
6) Chance of failure, when Changeling is an aura effect? Chance of failing to cast an important spell, with the best caster in the game....very weak argument. It can happen, sure. But the odds are strongly in favor of working as intended, and I don't see why you'd avoid a strong combo just because there's a possibility of failure. Do winged Daemon Princes suck because they might roll a 1 to wound?
Just rubbish. You can choose not to run Magnus if you don't like Tzeentch, or Thousand Sons, or really powerful models, or because you want to take a more welcoming, fluff bunny type list. Any of those reasons are valid. But to argue that Magnus just isn't outright good shows you're either ignorant to facts or are blinded by an agenda. Makes about as much sense as trying to say Conscripts aren't good.
BS4+ seems to be the issue with most of our daemon engines. What bonus do we have to hit that actually effects them though? VotLW is infantry only I believe.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: BS4+ seems to be the issue with most of our daemon engines. What bonus do we have to hit that actually effects them though? VotLW is infantry only I believe.
Prescience, re-roll 1's from Lords, and Daemon Forge stratagem.
combatcotton wrote: Anybody trying renegate helbrutes? M8 dreadnoughts that can charge after advancing seems scary. Hand them a scourge and something else either a cheap gun to save points or a fist for that free attack.
I have a flamefists brute that looks like he should be rushing like Zangief but I'm Word Bearers and fielding him as a Renegade would feel like claiming some Long Fangs are Ultramarines Devastators :/
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: BS4+ seems to be the issue with most of our daemon engines. What bonus do we have to hit that actually effects them though? VotLW is infantry only I believe.
Prescience, re-roll 1's from Lords, and Daemon Forge stratagem.
Well, it's okay for one unit, but only one of these buffs can scale. And even if a Forgefiend roll three 3's for its Ectoplasma ROF, Prescience is *still* probably better used on a unit of overcharging Plasma Gunners.
Buffs and stratagems are the icing on other units, but Fiends and Defilers... well, I guess it's not too bad that they regenerate and their BS doesn't degrade as severely as Mortal vehicles. I guess that's probably how we should view them, to be fair. Once they've taken six or so Wounds, a Daemon Engine is as accurate as a Predator. So... they're better suited to a more frontline, aggressive role - even though they want to stay still if possible to avoid losing accuracy (or a CP). A Predator is better suited to a stalking role, avoiding overexposure with its lower profile. Havocs can stand on top of a Ruin, gaining cover, and won't ever be tabled by four lascannons.
Decimators with double butcher cannons are around 150 and put out stupid amounts of firepower, heal a wound a turn, can synergize with daemons, and drop enemy leadership for night lords shenanigans.
You're working really hard to push a point here, but you're either omitting facts or being a bit willfully obtuse in twisting them to support your thesis.
Oh man the projection is real. You realize I wrote less then a quarter that you did. Right?
I'm paying 500 points for an amazing beatstick character and probably the best defensive buffing character in the game. If you play Tzeentch, Changeling goes in your list. Automatically. More so than Magnus, because Changeling can significantly improve the durability of your entire army. Magnus is just another beneficiary, it's not like Changeling is there JUST for Magnus.
Changling is not an auto include for TS players, or any army other then Tzzentch Deamons, so Changling would be there specifically for Magnus in a TS army
1) Changeling isn't meant to buff Magnus for the entire game, so no, he doesn't hamper Magnus' movement. Changeling is there to help Magnus survive an alpha strike. In all likelihood, Magnus will be within Changeling's bubble for 1 turn. Anything more than that is gravy, because between his natural move and Warp Time, Magnus moves 32" and then charges. He will almost always be engaged within 1 turn. After Magnus flies off, Changeling is still buffing the rest of your army. If they move up to keep pace with Magnus, awesome, but otherwise you're still good.
Thats fine, but don't bother counting Magnus having the aura on him at all if you intend to have him rush out of the aura firat turn. Thats great he charges something kills it and then catches 1750 points worth of fire in a singe turn and dies.
2) Not seeing a correlation here. Smite requires you to be within 18" of an enemy model, Deny requires 24" of the caster. Pretty sure you can maneuver to avoid the psyker and still be in range of other stuff to Smite. And I don't think Magnus' Smite is the only option you have for dealing with an enemy psyker. But even if you want to assume it is, Magnus gets 3 Deny attempts per turn, with a +2 to his rolls to start, and for a critical power like one denying him his Invul save, you're going to save a command point. The odds are probably in his favor for that though again, that's purely if you want to let your opponent dictate to you rather than use actual strategy.
2 units with deny can be positioned such that your not going to get smite off without being in deny range even if you have models 5" away from the denying models.
3) Hey bro, have you heard of these things called Brimstone Horrors? They're new and kinda relevant to the command point issue. Spending 500 points on Changeling and Magnus doesn't impair your command points when you can fill out 6 Troop slots for 180 points, and a lot of Chaos' best stuff comes in the HQ slot (like Changeling!). Chaos lists can easily manage 2 Battalions and a Supreme Command to fit Magnus, giving you 10 command points.
Thats great Brimstone Horrors can't be taken in a thats great for Tzzentch Daemons, but TS cant take Brimestone Horrors the cheapest troops we get are Cultists which are...well there cultists.
4) For example? Gotta love a bullet point that presents no argument whatsoever.
So you can't think of a single unit that might screw things up? No assassins that are the bane of all psykers everywhere. Not to mention strats that dish out mortal wounds like crazy, sisters of silence?
5) No you're not. I already addressed Changeling not being required to keep up with Magnus above, but also as Changeling is not Heretic Astartes, you couldn't Warp Time him along in the first place. Know rules first, then argue.
Yes, yes. You say Changeling makes Magnus super durable but he only stays next to him for 1 turn.
6) Chance of failure, when Changeling is an aura effect? Chance of failing to cast an important spell, with the best caster in the game....very weak argument. It can happen, sure. But the odds are strongly in favor of working as intended, and I don't see why you'd avoid a strong combo just because there's a possibility of failure. Do winged Daemon Princes suck because they might roll a 1 to wound?
Failure just means you don't benefit from the effect. Snipers killing him, you being forced or willingly moving out of range. 2 units of SoS and 1 Cluxes and you becomebthe worst caster in the game. Its not avoid
Just rubbish. You can choose not to run Magnus if you don't like Tzeentch, or Thousand Sons, or really powerful models, or because you want to take a more welcoming, fluff bunny type list. Any of those reasons are valid. But to argue that Magnus just isn't outright good shows you're either ignorant to facts or are blinded by an agenda. Makes about as much sense as trying to say Conscripts aren't good.
Yes I must be totally ignorant. Magnus is good if your opponet knows absolutly nothing about either TS or Tzeentch in general. But if they have any idea of what there doing they can easily counter him.
Maybe ya'll should make a thread on magnus and his usefulness. Seems like there is a lot to be said on him, but this thread is starting to turn in to a heated debate rather than a tactics sharing thread.
Do you play competitively, like at tournaments outside of just your club?
I don't ask to sound condescending, but your comments are making me think that either your opponents or you are not playing competitive lists.
If you're talking pure thousand sons, that's totally respectable but brims can and often are paired with Magnus (for obvious reasons) and the changeling is one of the best HQ's in the game. Really not sure why you're so intent on downing the obvious and powerful synergy there.
No unit is unkillable or uncounterable, but Magnus is pretty close to both if he's played properly (like with the support of an actual army). If you rush him out and assault something turn 1, well than yeah you're asking to have him killed unless you have other threats the opponent has to deal with. But played properly, he's a very good unit. I'm not sure what unit could possibly be more auto include in a CSM army right now except for maybe brims or cultists for cheap CP as well as at least some berserkers. Open to hearing what you think is auto include though, if not Magnus, brims or a changeling.
Do you play competitively, like at tournaments outside of just your club?
I don't ask to sound condescending, but your comments are making me think that either your opponents or you are not playing competitive lists.
If you're talking pure thousand sons, that's totally respectable but brims can and often are paired with Magnus (for obvious reasons) and the changeling is one of the best HQ's in the game. Really not sure why you're so intent on downing the obvious and powerful synergy there.
No unit is unkillable or uncounterable, but Magnus is pretty close to both if he's played properly (like with the support of an actual army). If you rush him out and assault something turn 1, well than yeah you're asking to have him killed unless you have other threats the opponent has to deal with. But played properly, he's a very good unit. I'm not sure what unit could possibly be more auto include in a CSM army right now except for maybe brims or cultists for cheap CP as well as at least some berserkers. Open to hearing what you think is auto include though, if not Magnus, brims or a changeling.
Daemon princes (Alpha legion or tzeentch/nurgle daemon are fine choices), exalted flamers, and some would say Foetid bloat drones.
my personal auto include is a herald on a steed of slaanesh for that -1 to hit power, with all the negatives you could put your enemy at -3 to hit. Pretty nasty.
Blood Slaughterer 180 points 10'' move, auto 6'' advance, can gain 2'' of charge distance with harpoon WS3+ / BS4+ 8 strength 10 attacks 1 strength 8 attack T7 10 wounds
With average rolls the BS is landing almost twice as many hits as the Maulerfiend, and is also faster. If I were going Khorne or Undivided I just can't see an argument for ever taking the Maulerfiend.
Blood Slaughterer
180 points
10'' move, auto 6'' advance, can gain 2'' of charge distance with harpoon
WS3+ / BS4+
8 strength 10 attacks
1 strength 8 attack
T7 10 wounds
With average rolls the BS is landing almost twice as many hits as the Maulerfiend, and is also faster. If I were going Khorne or Undivided I just can't see an argument for ever taking the Maulerfiend.
Don't take magma cutters which is where the argument is.
I think the speed and better WS will make a difference, so I'm going to gwt the Bloodslaughterer. However, with lasher tendrils the mauler fiend is a solid choice too, so my next purchase will be one of those instead of a 2nd BS. The more options the better right! What mark would be best on a maulerfiend (so that he can benefit from the god specific powers)?
luke1705 wrote: Do you play competitively, like at tournaments outside of just your club?
Used to not anymore, had a bad experiance. People at my club do though.
luke1705 wrote: I don't ask to sound condescending, but your comments are making me think that either your opponents or you are not playing competitive lists.
I play a pure TS list in a competitive enviorment. Right now a pure TS list is not competitive due to the lack of options. Not that TS cant or wont be competitive.
luke1705 wrote: If you're talking pure thousand sons, that's totally respectable but brims can and often are paired with Magnus (for obvious reasons) and the changeling is one of the best HQ's in the game. Really not sure why you're so intent on downing the obvious and powerful synergy there.
Im not saying its not powerful. Im saying its inefficent and can easily made unreliable.
luke1705 wrote: No unit is unkillable or uncounterable, but Magnus is pretty close to both if he's played properly (like with the support of an actual army). If you rush him out and assault something turn 1, well than yeah you're asking to have him killed unless you have other threats the opponent has to deal with. But played properly, he's a very good unit. I'm not sure what unit could possibly be more auto include in a CSM army right now except for maybe brims or cultists for cheap CP as well as at least some berserkers. Open to hearing what you think is auto include though, if not Magnus, brims or a changeling.
Its not that he can be countered. If the point cost for units that countered him were relativly high it wouldn't be a problem. Problem is Cluxus is 85 points which totally negates his plus 2. Vigilators are 95 points and terrifying for him, inquisitor rex (I think) gets a plus 1 to deny and is also 95 points with just Rex and Cluxus you need to roll an 8 to be confident your going to be able to get the spells you want off, and that is to make it more probable then not that you will get the spell off. That's only 180 points to shut down a 400 point model. And all it takes is one turn of Magnus not having an invul save and hes dust. That's not even looking at strats which seem to have a lot of mortal wounds built in. Flakk missle for example. Linebreaker bombardment.
Quick question for people who collect both chaos marines and daemons; What's a solid base of daemons to have in order to allow flexible counters via summoning? I'm looking to end up with a few units aligned to each god, but atm all I have are khorne units. I'm looking to branch out - the end goal being to own a multi-god daemon element for my chaos marines so that no matter what army I face I can summon in some monsters to deal with it.
That is a nasty piece of daemon engine right there.
edit: Got my points updated
How does that change things up? 6 strength 6 attacks hitting on 4s doesn't compare to 9 strength 10 attacks hitting on 3s. With 1 less damage it's basically half as effective against armored targets.
With lasher's you're taking a unit that's somewhat effective at tank hunting and below average at infantry fighting, and making it mediocre at both.
That is a nasty piece of daemon engine right there.
edit: Got my points updated
How does that change things up? You're cutting your strength literally in half in order to take lasher tendrils, that's awful.
In reality they do different things. You still get 4 str 12 attacks with the fist. Then you triple your attacks at strength 6 instead of 8 for way cheaper. It is mean mean verse both infantry and most vehicles.
For 30 pts less you get more attacks, at a slightly less average strength (7.6 verse 8 as the average). 2 more wounds. Slightly less movement.
I would say both are good. The fiend is more a flurry of 2 damage attacks. It can still crack open lots of things and cost you less points that can go into something else nasty with it. The slaughterer is better but also forgeworld, not all of us use it/want to pay for it, and maybe doesn't fit some folks armies. As mine is a Slaanesh/EC verse say Khorne/WE.
I'd take the impaler, as it's situationally more useful than 1 extra attack. It's got enough to ruin pretty much anything it touches anyway, but being able to shoot a krak missile and get some extra charge range is nice for no extra points.
I will say from my own experience with slaughterers is that they are absolute fire magnets, partly because they're so fast. Even supported with my crunchy walker heavy army, they've died in almost all my games pretty early (still get a charge or two in). They're right at the front, and 10w isn't quite enough to soak up all that fire.
Quick question; Is the 'Flames of Spite'-Warlord-Trait affected by the Veteran of the Long War Stratagem? I.e. on a 5+ instead of a 6+ it's a mortal wound?
EverlastingNewb wrote: Quick question; Is the 'Flames of Spite'-Warlord-Trait affected by the Veteran of the Long War Stratagem? I.e. on a 5+ instead of a 6+ it's a mortal wound?
Yep, 'this happens on a roll of n' comes into play after modifiers. So with VOTLW it activates on a 5+.
EverlastingNewb wrote: Quick question; Is the 'Flames of Spite'-Warlord-Trait affected by the Veteran of the Long War Stratagem? I.e. on a 5+ instead of a 6+ it's a mortal wound?
Yep, 'this happens on a roll of n' comes into play after modifiers. So with VOTLW it activates on a 5+.
So, add the Murdersword to a Lord and, if he hits he causes a MW & 5+ to wound also causes a MW.. hm
Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.
Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.
Dionysodorus wrote: Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.
Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.
Dionysodorus wrote: Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.
Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.
I was thinking about running 2 AL Helbrutes with Missle Launcher/Reaper Auto Cannon they are only 112 points. Main purpose being to thin out horde units with Frag missles and finish off transports.
Dionysodorus wrote: Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.
Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.
I was thinking about running 2 AL Helbrutes with Missle Launcher/Reaper Auto Cannon they are only 112 points.
Edit: points correction.
Nice, I was thinking about Oblits - more stuff with that juicy -2 to be hit.
Sounds like a pretty brutal rushdown, @Dionysodorous!
Dionysodorus wrote: Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.
Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.
how'd you get the changeling in there with them, summoning from the apostle?
Dionysodorus wrote: Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.
Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.
how'd you get the changeling in there with them, summoning from the apostle?
No, a separate detachment. I was just throwing things together to try to test out new Chaos stuff. I had Abaddon, Magnus, and the Changeling in a supreme command detachment alongside an Alpha Legion battalion, which was Cultists, Possessed, and a unit of Havocs.
Really happy with the Possessed and Cultists. I was planning to cast the Nurgle power on the Cultists to make them harder to hit too, but that wasn't necessary -- I feel like you'd only ever want it if you didn't get the first turn, but then you can't cast it anyway. The threat of the Cultist respawn stratagem meant that they weren't getting shot at much.
Magnus with +1 to his invulnerable save shrugged off 10 re-rolling lascannons without a wound. This was lucky but it still almost doubles his durability.
I'm not actually sure I have the CP to spare to have the Havocs shoot twice. But I may be biased because they missed all of their shots when using the stratagem.
I should have deep struck Abaddon; he didn't accomplish much other than helping a little with morale tests. Mostly he's there for +2 CP, and he can probably be dropped altogether in favor of another battalion of something.
I'm working on a version without Magnus because that's going to be a bit much for casual games.
Ermm, I think Magnus is a superheavy, not a command unit. So, not sure if you got your supreme command detachment of Abaddon, Magnus and the Changling wrong ...
Still, the idea of tzeenth possessed along with Changling in Alpha legion is really nice. I might try it too.
Changling with tzeenth obliteraters from an alpha legion also sounds really good.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Ermm, I think Magnus is a superheavy, not a command unit. So, not sure if you got your supreme command detachment of Abaddon, Magnus and the Changling wrong ...
Still, the idea of tzeenth possessed along with Changling in Alpha legion is really nice. I might try it too.
Yeah, the SC detachment also had Ahriman for helping to cast Chaos powers. But the SC also has a slot for a super-heavy, and that leaves a free detachment, though I don't have many points. I tossed in a few Malefic Lords in another SC detachment to make up the last 100 points and get me another CP. And then the battalion had a Lord and a Champion, but the Lord should really be swapped for an Apostle or maybe a winged Prince -- I was originally thinking I would run the Cultists with lasguns but it occurred to me just before the game that the big squad would be a lot better with more CC ability given how much easier it is to get re-rolls there, and I wanted to have both the Alpha Legion chainsword and the Murdersword.
How do you guys play forward operatives? Like deep strike? Are you all still allowed to move, shoot and charge after you deploy a unit from forward operatives? or do you play it like deep strike where the unit counts as having moved already if you deploy it from froward operatives.
Also, do you deploy if just before you take your turn, or just before the 1st turn starts (whoever starts first). So, if opponent gets to start first, do you then still have to deploy forward operatives, after which they will get shot at and charged by the opponent?
Forward operatives seem really good, but given how it may determine the whole flow of the game, Its wording may be subject to alot of argument by you and your opponent. I mean, no opponent likes the idea of one or more unit who may deploy at 9.1 inches who can move, shoot and charge. And the issue is that if you deploy your army more as a beta strike army (because it has quite a few drops), then forward operatives becomes less powerful. Its best when you can go first.
Eldenfirefly wrote: How do you guys play forward operatives? Like deep strike? Are you all still allowed to move, shoot and charge after you deploy a unit from forward operatives? or do you play it like deep strike where the unit counts as having moved already if you deploy it from froward operatives.
Also, do you deploy if just before you take your turn, or just before the 1st turn starts (whoever starts first). So, if opponent gets to start first, do you then still have to deploy forward operatives, after which they will get shot at and charged by the opponent?
Forward operatives seem really good, but given how it may determine the whole flow of the game, Its wording may be subject to alot of argument by you and your opponent. I mean, no opponent likes the idea of one or more unit who may deploy at 9.1 inches who can move, shoot and charge. And the issue is that if you deploy your army more as a beta strike army (because it has quite a few drops), then forward operatives becomes less powerful. Its best when you can go first.
It functions just like a deep strike, but it's explicit that it happens before the first turn, so it's clear that you can move the unit on your first turn. Units arriving as reinforcements are only unable to move on the turn they arrive.
You set them up before the very first player's turn, no matter whose turn that is. I am not 100% clear on whether you set them up before or after you decide which player actually has the first turn, but I asked in YMDC and so far I'm outnumbered. If that holds, then you know for sure when you set the unit up that you will be going first or that you will be going second, and so you can deploy aggressively or defensively as appropriate.
But, yes, it's incredibly powerful, especially if you have relatively few drops and so are likely to go first. However, even if you're not going first you can get a lot out of it. Along with the identical Raven Guard stratagem, it means that armies need to be prepared to deal with any (Chaos) Space Marine infantry unit moving, shooting, and charging after starting 9" away on the first turn. Or multiple such units. You don't even have to decide which unit is using it until you see your opponent, so you could bring something to rip through a Conscript blob and something to kill tanks and then use the stratagem for the appropriate squad (or both!) depending. I'm not sure that anyone has a great answer to this other than (of course) Imperial Guard with Ratlings.
I think angling to go first is great for using forward operatives. Also, from what I understand, forward operatives can be used several times (if you have the CP for it), since deployment is not even considered a proper "phase". Although, again this may be subject to argument. (sigh, this strategem is great, but subject to so many potential arguments).
And from what I read in that thread, deployment happens before determining who goes first, and then the 1st battle turn starts. So, that prevents forward operatives from being godlike. Because firstly, there is a chance opponent goes first after you have already placed forward operatives (if you all use a roll off system to determine who goes first). And secondly, even if you go first, opponent has a chance to sieze initiative, and he would for sure use his reroll, so still possible he might end up going first too.
One problem with angling to go first, is that you then have to go for few drops. it constrains your army list.
In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.
And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.
Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.
Can I get a link to the Forward Ops thread? My take on it is:
- deployment finishes before first turn is determined
- declaring that a unit is set up in concealment fulfils the obligation to deploy it, just like if you set it up in a teleportarium
- a battle round is defined as two consecutive player turns, starting with the first player's movement phase
- who goes first and second is determined before the start of the first battle round
- forward ops are therefore deployed immediately before player one takes their first movement phase, which happens after it is determined who goes first
Now that they are cheaper, Defilers might be worth considering. But mainly for close combat to midrange I feel. They suffer so much once they start moving. The battle cannon becomes a 5+ to hit stuff lol. Would have been better if the reaper cannon could have been swapped for either flamer options or close CC option.
And they are still close to 200 points, even with the cheaper armament options. Plus its not like they move that fast. 8 inches. Could take as long as third turn before they can charge something.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: Can I get a link to the Forward Ops thread? My take on it is:
- deployment finishes before first turn is determined
- declaring that a unit is set up in concealment fulfils the obligation to deploy it, just like if you set it up in a teleportarium
- a battle round is defined as two consecutive player turns, starting with the first player's movement phase
- who goes first and second is determined before the start of the first battle round
- forward ops are therefore deployed immediately before player one takes their first movement phase, which happens after it is determined who goes first
AFAICT the majority are wrong on this
Most of the people in that thread so far feel that forward ops deployment happens before it is determined who goes first. I got a feeling this will require a FAQ before it can be settled conclusively. And if you try to play your version, be prepared for a long rules argument with your opponent. (because like I said, its a pretty powerful strategem if you make your list based on using it).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, if the strategem can be used multiple times because you argue that deployment is not considered a phase, you wouldn't even care so much even if you have to use forward operatives before it is determined who goes first.
Consider if I play 4 squads of 20 zerkers along with 3 cultists and my alpha legion warlord. (Its not even a 2000 point list). So, I use 4 cp to use forward operatives 4 times to place the 4 berserker squads all within 9.1 inches of the opponent line.
Who cares even if opponent starts first. I have got a mass of 80 zerkers which I can position however I want up the board within 9.1 inches of the opponent's army. You get at most one round of shooting before I will definitely charge your lines. And if I go first, most armies would probably conceded already because I don't know how many armies can take being charged by 80 zerkers turn 1. lol.
If I want to be "conservative". I can position the 80 zerks at 12.1 inches. Now they are at -1 to hit and I just need to make a 6 inch charge after my move. I save on Rhinos, and heck, I can even save on bringing icons of wrath.
But of course, I think opponent may argue to death about whether you can use forward operatives multiple times. Its a really powerful mechanic, but the kind of rules arguments it will bring about ....
They are right to say that forward ops deployment happens before it is determined who goes first. However, 'Deployment' in this context refers not to setting up a unit in play on the table, but declaring that they are in concealment - the exact same term used for Assassins. An Alpha Legion Squad and a Vindicare are deployed in a pipe or bush or crater somewhere, some Terminators are deployed in a teleportarium, an assault squad is deployed in a thunderhawk ready to pass.
Setting these Concealed units up happens later - at the start of the first battle round, which happens after determining who goes first and immediately before the first player's movement phase in the case of the AL, and at the end of the Imperium player's movement phase in the case of the Vindicare. But they were Deployed the instant the players committed them to Concealment.
Yes, it's extremely powerful, especially if it is unlimited. I would happily accept an errata that makes them commit to set up before working out who goes first, but right now that is simply not RAW.
I don't think we've had an FAQ on number of pregame stratagems? It's a question that also applies to Gifts of Chaos - can we burn 4CP to run seven Artefacts?
Insectum7 wrote: In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.
And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.
Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.
Actually, how are they a hilarious response to deepstrikers? Because of their twin heavy flamers? Still doesn't prevent say a host of scions who just want to jump strike in and unleash all their plasma or meltas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: They are right to say that forward ops deployment happens before it is determined who goes first. However, 'Deployment' in this context refers not to setting up a unit in play on the table, but declaring that they are in concealment - the exact same term used for Assassins. An Alpha Legion Squad and a Vindicare are deployed in a pipe or bush or crater somewhere, some Terminators are deployed in a teleportarium, an assault squad is deployed in a thunderhawk ready to pass.
Setting these Concealed units up happens later - at the start of the first battle round, which happens after determining who goes first and immediately before the first player's movement phase in the case of the AL, and at the end of the Imperium player's movement phase in the case of the Vindicare. But they were Deployed the instant the players committed them to Concealment.
Yes, it's extremely powerful, especially if it is unlimited. I would happily accept an errata that makes them commit to set up before working out who goes first, but right now that is simply not RAW.
I don't think we've had an FAQ on number of pregame stratagems? It's a question that also applies to Gifts of Chaos - can we burn 4CP to run seven Artefacts?
Personally, given how powerful this strategem is. I am pretty sure they will FAQ it to mean use just once, even if used pregame start. Its just too op otherwise. I mean, who needs transports when I can just burn multiple CPs to bring the bulk of my entire army into charge range?
I was thinking of using the alpha strike to set up some combi-plasma chosen in cover. They put some early pressure on my opponent while everything else rushes foward. I think rhinos are worth taking to absorb overwatch, and everything else I'm using is fast and/or deepstrikes in (wing DP w/ToBB, jump pack sorcerer, warptalons, and raptors). I agree that it may be too OP if its unlimited use, no real need for transports. Although I do really like the 80 berzerker rush idea! For the chosen squad, I'm thinking 6 dedicated to slaanesh with 5 combi-plasma and either a plasma gun or heavy bolter. Thats 164 or 161, respectively, and if they shoot twice they'll almost certainly make their points back.
Just starting out an EC army and was looking for advice if this loadout made sense:
5 TERMINATORS
3 storm bolters + Lightning claws
1 Heavy flamer + lightning claws
Champion with melta gun + powerfist
Icon of excess
They will arrive from DS with a Sorcerer in terminator armor w/ force stave and some kind of combi weapon and use warptime and preciense on them.
this is my logic:
Warptime will close the distance.
In the shooting phase I unload 12 bolter shots and 1 melta shot and hopefully in range of heavy flamer. This might strip away some chaff and/or weaken a unit before charging.
The average terminator will have 2x S4 attacks, against imperium a 5+ to hit (4+ if preciense goes off) gains me an extra attack. In addition re-rolling wounds because of LCs.
The champ is there to help deal with vehicles and multi-wound targets with the melta and powerfist.
the sorcerer will likely be in the open after his termy bodyguard gets warptimed and charges, although with good positioning this may not be a problem.
I am thinking maybe dual claws would be better? an extra attack in CC and the fact that all of that shooting might make the charge harder to make because of enemy casualties. However this would result in loss of flexibility.
Also would a reaper cannon be better than a heavy flamer? If warptime fails, the heavy flamer will not be in range after the DS. But my logic here is that the terminators will be in constant movement and the HEAVY profile of the reaper would not be ideal (-1 to hit).
Any advise from more experienced players would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
Insectum7 wrote: In response to the conversation about Defilers a page or two earlier, Ive been running 3 of them alongside Abaddon and they've been pretty baller. They're togher than one would think, and theyre a hilarious respone to deep strikers. Otherwise they bombard stuff with their general purpose Battle Cannons and reapers for fire support.
And people gasp at the strength 16, which is fun.
Two of them have the twin Heavy Flamer option, just because thats whats painted. The scourge might be smarter, but having the auto hit flamers when he would otherwise be hitting on 5s or 6s at low wounds has been remarkably helpful.
Actually, how are they a hilarious response to deepstrikers? Because of their twin heavy flamers? Still doesn't prevent say a host of scions who just want to jump strike in and unleash all their plasma or meltas.
Because they assault and mash things, and have a variety of weapons. They actually do ok taking plasma with the invuln and 14 wounds too. They are big and brutish and fun. Three of them together helps optimize reponses, firing Autocannons at one target, Battlecannons at another, Heavy Flamers and Assaulting a third.
At range they dont have to move, and get the rerolls from Abaddon. If the enemy gets close they react and pound stuff. The dual role sets them apart from most other chaos vehicles, and youre not locked into a strategy with them.
Actually, if Abbadon is gonna sit in the back field with them just to provide rerolls. I would suggest you go world eaters and just use Kharn along with world eaters defilers. Kharn is cheaper than Abbadon, just as fierce on the counter charge, and Kharn also can provide rerolls to hit for your defilers.
BTW,can I check something? Can I give an artifact to a champion? Like can I give Axe of Biting Fury to my berzerker champion? Because I actually think a berzerker champion with an axe of biting fury is more deadly on the attack compared to a chaos lord on foot with the same axe of biting fury. lol
BTW,can I check something? Can I give an artifact to a champion? Like can I give Axe of Biting Fury to my berzerker champion? Because I actually think a berzerker champion with an axe of biting fury is more deadly on the attack compared to a chaos lord on foot with the same axe of biting fury. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another question. If my Khorne chaos lord is locked in combat. Can he still do a demon ritual and summon in some daemons? Fighting doesn't mean move right?
Also, Daemon ritual can be done as long as a character didn't move. So I can summon in a bunch of daemons, and still charge into combat after that right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another question. If my Khorne chaos lord is locked in combat. Can he still do a demon ritual and summon in some daemons? Fighting doesn't mean move right?
Also, Daemon ritual can be done as long as a character didn't move. So I can summon in a bunch of daemons, and still charge into combat after that right?
Dionysodorus wrote: Alpha Legion Tzeentch Possessed with The Changeling seem really solid. I just had them shut down a Guilliman list by deploying 12.1" away (to dodge Auspex Scan and guarantee heavy weapons hitting at -2 if I go second) and then locking everything in combat. He fell back on his turn but then his heavy weapons were shooting at -2 to everything and -3 to things past 12" or the Possessed. If you're already daisy-chaining back to The Changeling (this is easy because you have 20 models in the unit), it makes sense to bring along a Champion to re-roll wounds and maybe an Apostle.
Cultists were also really solid. Same idea -- 40 of them deploy in the enemy's face, daisy-chained back to the Champion. This is only 160 points, but they're a massive tar pit that threaten to put out a huge number of re-rolled attacks in CC.
how'd you get the changeling in there with them, summoning from the apostle?
No, a separate detachment. I was just throwing things together to try to test out new Chaos stuff. I had Abaddon, Magnus, and the Changeling in a supreme command detachment alongside an Alpha Legion battalion, which was Cultists, Possessed, and a unit of Havocs.
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okie, struggling to work out then how you deployed the possessed 'and' the changeling 12.1" away?
) because he doesnt have a 
