I was browsing the GW Website and saw this for £20.50.



FOR FIVE MODELS....FIVE MODELS!

almost the same as GW Rhino or Drop Pod (my Local store sells RHINO's and PODS at £21), What is going on? I bought a WH Elf set from the Old WH boxed set for £20, which had lots of models,.

I cannot see why this is £20.50 for so little.

As long as they only bring stuff out in Finecast when plastic has been considered first...

£4 per model is overdoing it, especially for non-HQ.

You think that's bad? Check how much a pack of three Fell Bats will set you back.

P T Barnum was right, after all. GW wouldn't price this way if people didn't buy it.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
You think that's bad? Check how much a pack of three Fell Bats will set you back.

Or 5 Bloodknights.....

 mwnciboo wrote:
£20.50 FOR FIVE MODELS....

You realise that's a typical per-mini cost for Infinity or Warmachine or Malifxau or Mercs (mercs is more) or, well, lots of other games?

http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/malifaux/guild-hunters/2176
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=270560
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=10011
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2790

People get shell shocked by the start up costs of Warhammer because of the volume of models needed.

Other skirmish level games can get away with not being seen as an expensive hobby because you do not have to plunk down $3-500 to start playing.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
£20.50 FOR FIVE MODELS....

You realise that's a typical per-mini cost for Infinity or Warmachine or Malifxau or Mercs (mercs is more) or, well, lots of other games?

Yes, but you don't need 20 models to make a unit in infinity - 5 models is usually half an "army".

Has anyone heard of a skirmish game called Necromunda, 8 minitures for £20.50. Don't know who it's by but that's great value for money.

WarOne wrote:People get shell shocked by the start up costs of Warhammer because of the volume of models needed.

Hardly applicable to someone like mwnciboo who's been playing GW games for years.

chromedog wrote:Yes, but you don't need 20 models to make a unit in infinity - 5 models is usually half an "army".

I'm not going to argue with your point that a 40K army is more expensive than a warmachine or infinity army - you need way more models. However £4 per model is pretty average for many mainstream systems.

Personally, I think a bigger complaint with those HE models is why so boring? I know that uniformity is a bonus in WHFB but still... it looks like there's only three different sculpts in there.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

WarOne wrote:People get shell shocked by the start up costs of Warhammer because of the volume of models needed.

Hardly applicable to someone like mwnciboo who's been playing GW games for years.

Being in the hobby for so long can also cause a person to lament how cheap things once were as well. Watching the price of a tactical marine squad tick ever so upward can give one pause for reflection on "do I really need to spend $37.25???

 notprop wrote:
Has anyone heard of a skirmish game called Necromunda, 8 minitures for £20.50. Don't know who it's by but that's great value for money.

Exalted! (whatever that does...)

Every pricing thread it's the same back and forth.

First we hear how GW's models are more expensive than the rest, which is quickly proven false, then the Infinity/Warmahordes/etc crowd falls back on "but you need to buy more models to play GW" ignoring all GW's skirmish games, then we remind them of said skirmish games, then they say these games don't count because they aren't supported, then we link them to the model ranges still being sold by GW and the rules free to download from GW's site, then they finally fall back on saying the Necromunda sculpts suck or some such.

Is another price complaint thread what Dakka needs?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Has anyone heard of a skirmish game called Necromunda, 8 minitures for £20.50. Don't know who it's by but that's great value for money.

Exalted! (whatever that does...)....

It makes me feel better about wasting my time on Dakka rather than working of course - thanks!

Yeah it is an unfortunately all too common conversation used by some to denigrate other games not to some people's liking. The skirmish versus platoon/army scales is a different issue entirely and shouldnt really be mixed in with model price.

GW do offer some real humdingers for allot of money, but other companies seem to take GW as th litmus test of what the market will stomach and follow course. If GW are reprehensible (and they certainly can be) so are other for taking their lead from them.

I should point out that I work for a huge multinational and to me GW look like little saintly school girls compared to you so my opinion may be somewhat skewed.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
£20.50 FOR FIVE MODELS....

You realise that's a typical per-mini cost for Infinity or Warmachine or Malifxau or Mercs (mercs is more) or, well, lots of other games?

http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/malifaux/guild-hunters/2176
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=270560
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=10011
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2790

Deflection Fail

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Has anyone heard of a skirmish game called Necromunda, 8 minitures for £20.50. Don't know who it's by but that's great value for money.

Exalted! (whatever that does...)

Every pricing thread it's the same back and forth.

First we hear how GW's models are more expensive than the rest, which is quickly proven false, then the Infinity/Warmahordes/etc crowd falls back on "but you need to buy more models to play GW" ignoring all GW's skirmish games, then we remind them of said skirmish games, then they say these games don't count because they aren't supported, then we link them to the model ranges still being sold by GW and the rules free to download from GW's site, then they finally fall back on saying the Necromunda sculpts suck or some such.

Haha very good, thanks for summing up the thread

(Although to be fair I've never heard anyone saying that the Necromunda sculpts suck! You would think they do, the way they are hidden away in a dusty corner of the website, their playing banned in many GW stores, but they certainly don't suck.. )

But regarding the 'not supported' point, I would be interested in knowing how many new players, coming into GW over the past 4-5 years, are even aware of the specialist games existence. Such a shame, platoon/squad level games or whatever, some of those specialist games (Epic and Blood Bowl in particular) IMO are some of the finest games GW has ever released.

On the upside of the specialist games, seen Mantic was doing scifi football, so if it's as good as bloodbowl was might save some pennies playing that instead of splashing out on new teams as mine vanished :(

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
£20.50 FOR FIVE MODELS....

You realise that's a typical per-mini cost for Infinity or Warmachine or Malifxau or Mercs (mercs is more) or, well, lots of other games?

http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/malifaux/guild-hunters/2176
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=270560
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=10011
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2790

Except you dont need 15, 20 or more in the other games to make the unit viable. Which is why in other games folks dont complain(among other reasons)

No one cares about spending that for 5 models when thats all you need. Or only need 10 tops.

That's not too bad they are $55 for the same Finecast box in Australia. That is $11 a model. The fell bats are $83 so $27.60 a model. Prices have a way to go till the level out in some countries.

As for Necromunda, I think that is the best game ever made. I had loads of fun when people still played it and ran ongoing campaigns.

At least you aren't Tau. Finecast only Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds? Both of which are important. It sucks! Also, trying to find used metal ones here is a big PITA for me.

How about Mega-Nobs or Fiends of Slaanesh?
ONE model and MORE than a box of 5.

buy em used

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Has anyone heard of a skirmish game called Necromunda, 8 minitures for £20.50. Don't know who it's by but that's great value for money.

Exalted! (whatever that does...)

Every pricing thread it's the same back and forth.

First we hear how GW's models are more expensive than the rest, which is quickly proven false, then the Infinity/Warmahordes/etc crowd falls back on "but you need to buy more models to play GW" ignoring all GW's skirmish games, then we remind them of said skirmish games, then they say these games don't count because they aren't supported, then we link them to the model ranges still being sold by GW and the rules free to download from GW's site, then they finally fall back on saying the Necromunda sculpts suck or some such.

Cannot Exalt enough, the day Dakka takes warseers stance and has one thread for whining about prices, and deletes all others the better.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Is another price complaint thread what Dakka needs?

Apparently people never tire of hearing people complain about threads they never had to bother reading.

 Pacific wrote:
(Although to be fair I've never heard anyone saying that the Necromunda sculpts suck! You would think they do, the way they are hidden away in a dusty corner of the website, their playing banned in many GW stores, but they certainly don't suck..

Some of them are hideous but some are superb.

It is a shame GW decided to shelve anything that wasn't their big three games.

You've got to keep the product choices easy for the kiddies. Don't wan them to get distracted by Necromunda or Mordheim when you can sell them more Space Marines instead.

. The fell bats are $83

Almost $10 more then a Land Raider here. That's really baffling.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
First we hear how GW's models are more expensive than the rest, which is quickly proven false, then the Infinity/Warmahordes/etc crowd falls back on "but you need to buy more models to play GW" ignoring all GW's skirmish games, then we remind them of said skirmish games, then they say these games don't count because they aren't supported, then we link them to the model ranges still being sold by GW and the rules free to download from GW's site, then they finally fall back on saying the Necromunda sculpts suck or some such.

I always thought the GW supporters conceded (well it's not as popular) when it is pointed out that the standard GW tournament army is 2x the cost of the standard Privateer Press tournament army.

Barfolomew wrote:

I always thought the GW supporters conceded (well it's not as popular) when it is pointed out that the standard GW tournament army is 2x the cost of the standard Privateer Press tournament army.

Conceded what? That you need more models to play 40k than to play Warmachine? Nobody is disputing that.

However:

1) There exist GW games where a complete "army" is cheaper than a Warmachine starter set. And you get the rules free to boot.
2) GW is cheaper per model. That standard 40k tournament army that costs twice as much as a standard Warmachine tournament army will likely have a lot more than twice the amount of models.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

2) GW is cheaper per model. That standard 40k tournament army that costs twice as much as a standard Warmachine tournament army will likely have a lot more than twice the amount of models.

From the BoLS spring comparison:
Orks - $573 for 80 infantry and 7 vehicles
Legion - $189 for 26 infantry and 1 vehicle

The Orks cost 2.5x as much but you get significantly more than 2.5x as much stuff.

It comes down to perception of value. Some will look at the total spend, some will look at how much stuff they get for the money. Personally, I don't feel that either is expensive (I buy a 40K army most years plus other wargaming stuff and it's by far my cheapest hobby.)

i ride a $1000 Kelly Slater limited edition model surfboard, with carbon fiber and every other modern design element, which i could accidentaly snap on any wave...
seems pretty insane, but it's worth every penny when i'm on a wave...

the price of a miniature has never been something i consider...
the only question is how bad do i want it...
that said, i still love a bargain or a discount (which is why i paid $350 for my $1000 surf board, and am typing this on an iPad that Nike gave me as a gift)...
paying full retail just feels wrong somehow...

cheers
jah

I suppose taking that as an example, it comes down to the perceived value of something.

The example given in the OP does seem a little steep, perhaps it might be a bit more acceptable if you are new coming into wargaming, or if you are unaware of some other games. That being said, a friend of mine went into a GW to buy a present for a mate, and told me he had a hard time stopping himself saying "you've got to be effing kidding me" when he was shown how much a LoTR troll cost.

So, I guess there will come a time when more customers than not will say "erm.. no, that price is not conscionable", perhaps that has already happened to people in Aus. I believe it was Howard Treesong said previously that it was the ultimate objective of GW to sell a single box of tactical marines for 5 million dollars

Please also remember... there is a large portion of customers that buy *MODELS* not *ARMIES*. There are people who collect models for the sheer joy of painting models they like to look at or include into 'RPG' gaming where the models are used for no purpose but visual representation.

It has even been said in the past that 2/3rds of GWs customers never play the game and buy models for the sake of collecting models.

I can say I have bought many Privateer Press models and never intend to play that game or build an army. To tell me Privateer Press is 'cheaper' because I need 25 models than 120 is a steaming pile as the cool turtleman figure which I want to paint doesn't become 'CHEAPER' simply because if I play the game I would only need 24 of them.

As someone who buys models to paint as one-off models and be cool 'shelf eyecandy' or use in generic RPG games, GW's models are right in the middle of the pack with everyone else. I buy models which are way more expensive simply due to production run issues and I buy ones cheaper because sometimes someone makes an amazingly good figure that ends up being super cheap.

No one is forcing anyone to pay 2500pt warhammer games... And I been seeing point creep for PP games now that they have had people playing a while. I see 100+ points of PP armies being more common and as more people have them, more people want to play them and more people then become forced to buy 100 points.

Whoa ... are you saying people actually play specialist games? Where can I meet these people? I'd love to play Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, and BFG, but I've never seen anyone play them. Hell, I have a BFG fleet that I've never used!

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
Whoa ... are you saying people actually play specialist games? Where can I meet these people? I'd love to play Necromunda, Mordheim, Bloodbowl, and BFG, but I've never seen anyone play them. Hell, I have a BFG fleet that I've never used!

Heh, come to wyoming, people play BB here, cant say so much for any other non RPG or CCG game.

 Pacific wrote:

The example given in the OP does seem a little steep, perhaps it might be a bit more acceptable if you are new coming into wargaming, or if you are unaware of some other games. That being said, a friend of mine went into a GW to buy a present for a mate, and told me he had a hard time stopping himself saying "you've got to be effing kidding me" when he was shown how much a LoTR troll cost.

It seems shocking to a newcomer. But that's how they get you hooked. To take the IG as an example, if I were a newcomer I'd think the infantry squad wasn't bad value. What £20 for 10 models? That's not too bad when you consider how long it takes to paint them (horde give value for money ). But then you get a bit further into the game, and you realise that an infantry squad is naff all points, and doesn't have a single useful special weapon. So you need to spend a few more pounds on special weapons, and get a lot more squads. Before you know it, you have a load of models and have spent a bucket load of money. At that point, spending £60 on a vendetta seems more reasonable.

If you want to play IG never use GW's guardsmen because GW guardsmen are extremely expensive for that type of model.

 notprop wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
You think that's bad? Check how much a pack of three Fell Bats will set you back.

Or 5 Bloodknights.....

Archaon.

One cavalry model.

Go look.

Funny thing is that when GW released their plastic regiments/units the idea was to give bulk figures for a good price. You dropped £10 and got a unit. And that was a great price on them even at the time. Imperial Guard plastics were 20 for £10 when first released and it wasn't just the price, it made buying units for your army very straight forward. Plonk down a note, get a regiment. It's perfect for impulse purchases at a time when the alternative with many armies was to buy a heap of various blisters to get the heavy weapons, unit leader and infantry and end up paying some odd amount like £16.50 and getting 11 figures so one ends up in the spare box. But on the prices specifically, people can talk about 'inflation' all they want, when the exact same castings of the humble Catachan go from 50p to £2 over a period of a decade it's well above. And the product hasn't improved one jot to justify it.


Five elves for £20.50 is crap. Firstly, the price per figure for a very generic miniature is outlandish, and secondly it's useless; you'll need several boxes to make a unit so the final cost is just hideous for what are a group of very samey looking rank and file troops (They probably dare not sell you a unit of 10 or 20 because it slams home just how stupidly expensive the regiment will be). And they do all look the same, not least because in that pic there's only 3 variants offered. That's bs for a modern miniatures company charging these prices. You sell stuff in packs of five, at £4 a head - you make them all different. And I might not be a consumer psychologist, but that extra 50p just serves to draw attention to the fact that you're paying over £20 for 5 figures. Wouldn't £19.99 sound nicer?

 lord_blackfang wrote:


1) There exist GW games where a complete "army" is cheaper than a Warmachine starter set. And you get the rules free to boot.

And no one plays them, becuase no one knows about them. Seriously, I've not seen a game of necromunda, BFG, in a decade. And we only played BB during football season in a basement, and Mordhiem during halloween in a basement.

I've never seen a game played in and FLGS or hobby shops in years if not a decade. Your average customer knows nothing about those games.

 -Loki- wrote:

Archaon.

One cavalry model.

Go look.

AUS: $83

CDN: $57.67

US: $47.65

UK: $45.67

(all in AUS dollars)

So much for GW costing the same as others on a per model basis. I couldn't find a 40mm based fantasy model for anywhere near that price. And Archaon is what? A 10 year old sculpt now?

I guess GW expects mommy to open up her wallet for Timmy without thinking too much about the contents of the kit. "Well Timmy, if you're sure that's what you want for your birthday..."

carmachu wrote:


I've never seen a game played in and FLGS or hobby shops in years if not a decade. Your average customer knows nothing about those games.

The average gamer has never played Warmachine...

 CT GAMER wrote:


I've never seen a game played in and FLGS or hobby shops in years if not a decade. Your average customer knows nothing about those games.

The average gamer has never played Warmachine...

At least that gamer base is growing rather than contracting. Trying to find a 40k game around here is next to impossible compared to finding a Warmachine game. And finding other players of Specialist games is next to impossible. Even the local BFG guys have switched to Firestorm Armada.

I imagine every location is a bit different, but it used to be that GW's games could be found being played with ease. Now you end up paying more money and having a smaller and smaller pool of opponents.

My group went from all 40K to a period of playing only wamrachine for a number of years and now Warmachien is dead in the water and people are playign 40K again and attracting new members.

One's own situation/expeience is just that..

well, personally, i've been collecting GW minis for over 25 years...
box sets used to be a better value, and you could play video games at the corner store for a quarter...
now, box sets are smaller and more expensive, while a good video game at the arcade starts at a dollar...

for the most part, more money gets you less stuff all around...
wages don't seem to have risen as much as the price of damn near EVERYTHING over the last twenty years...
if i got worked up over the way things were a decade ago, i would probably feel like i'm getting ripped off everywhere...
ask your parents how much gas cost on the day you were born, and go look at the price now...

all i can say is that most minis are miles above the old sculpts...
technology has advanced so much, and i'm happy to pay for multi-part options versus the first WFB plastic troops that came out...
they had one pose for each race, and you would end up with unit that was twenty of the same mini, and that was considered revolutionary at the time!!!

if you really really want something, go out and hustle up that dough...
all the time spent whining could be time spent making money...

cheers
jah

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
£20.50 FOR FIVE MODELS....

You realise that's a typical per-mini cost for Infinity or Warmachine or Malifxau or Mercs (mercs is more) or, well, lots of other games?

http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/malifaux/guild-hunters/2176
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=270560
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=10011
http://www.firestormgames.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2790

WH models are a lot smaller than those and less detailed.

 CT GAMER wrote:

At least that gamer base is growing rather than contracting. Trying to find a 40k game around here is next to impossible compared to finding a Warmachine game. And finding other players of Specialist games is next to impossible. Even the local BFG guys have switched to Firestorm Armada.

I imagine every location is a bit different, but it used to be that GW's games could be found being played with ease. Now you end up paying more money and having a smaller and smaller pool of opponents.

My group went from all 40K to a period of playing only wamrachine for a number of years and now Warmachien is dead in the water and people are playign 40K again and attracting new members.

One's own situation/expeience is just that..

PErsonal experience - I see people playing Warmachine at my FLGS, but I also see more people playing 40k. Apparently the Warmachine base there was large about a year and a half ago, with two dedicated gaming nights, but it just petered out, which might or might not have had something to do with all the Warmachine players basically being the whole areas population of TFGs.

Having read what SCOTT-S6 said about prices in general, I've thought about this, and for people like me it's actually probably my fault.

I've recently bought FW mk4 Space Marine Armour, It was £20 for 5 without weapons, but I justified it to myself because it was a special Army (PRE-HERESY),

So maybe I shouldn't complain because I have paid this before for FW Stuff. For some reason, I seem to think that FW should be more expensive because it has a smaller customer base and is highly specialist (I don't imagine the that FW stuff outsells GW stuff). So maybe I'm part of the problem in this regard, I have encouraged both FW and GW to keep the prices up, and who ever referenced PT Barnum might have a point.

That said, I bought 3 x Thunderfire Cannon "counts as" from MANTIC for £30 which I think is outstanding value, and will allow me to have a full battery for APOC games and one or two for normal games.

EDIT - The thing I'm most annoyed about is that I have 10 Sword masters of Hoeth in Plastic, and when I compare them with the FINECAST ones I cannot see the difference. So they haven't even re-sculpted them, it just on the surface seems galling.

We've all spent money frivolously, so please don't take my PT Barnum reference as a personal attack. I just started a new historical army that will be all metal when there are plastic options at a lower price.

Forgeworld has always been a truly premium priced product (even if they have had casting issues at times). It's sad now that regular GW prices are often more than Forgeworld items. In the case of the pre-hersy guys, 0.50. cheaper even in the UK.

I didn't realize there are plastic hoeth available. Wow. From the starter box no less.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-IoB-10-Sword-Masters-Hoeth-NEW-/320969787430?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abb4a4826

Despite my somewhat tactless PT Barnum reference, I'm not going to slight someone too seriously for buying a miniature they want and paying a lot for it, but these finecast hoeth miniatures are just GW taking the piss. They have plastics for these!!

PT Barnum quote for Forgeworld? Nope. For finecast miniatures that have a good looking plastic alternative? I think it fits there.

You want to be shell shocked? According to the leaked price list, Grail Knights are going to be released in Finecast for $74.25 US. That's for FIVE knights on PLASTIC horsies.

 mwnciboo wrote:
EDIT - The thing I'm most annoyed about is that I have 10 Sword masters of Hoeth in Plastic, and when I compare them with the FINECAST ones I cannot see the difference. So they haven't even re-sculpted them, it just on the surface seems galling.

I'll agree with you there. £4 each for those models is horrible!

 Surtur wrote:
WH models are a lot smaller than those and less detailed.

I've got Mercs and Cryx models in front of me and that's not true.

Barfolomew wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
First we hear how GW's models are more expensive than the rest, which is quickly proven false, then the Infinity/Warmahordes/etc crowd falls back on "but you need to buy more models to play GW" ignoring all GW's skirmish games, then we remind them of said skirmish games, then they say these games don't count because they aren't supported, then we link them to the model ranges still being sold by GW and the rules free to download from GW's site, then they finally fall back on saying the Necromunda sculpts suck or some such.

I always thought the GW supporters conceded (well it's not as popular) when it is pointed out that the standard GW tournament army is 2x the cost of the standard Privateer Press tournament army.

You can play 40k quite happily at 750pts, 1000pts, etc. GW doesn't support tournaments, and the majority of 40k players don't play in tournaments, so why would we use the 1850/2000pt 'tournament standard' as a benchmark? I think i might have played ONE 2000pt game in the last year. Maybe. The rest of the time it's been 1250 or 1500.

But PP does actively encourage tournament play.

It would be more fair to compare the cost of a GW starter army (1000pts, to play fun beer-and-cake games in your friends' living rooms, as is intended) to a PP tournament army (to play in tournaments, as intended).

 Scott-S6 wrote:

WarOne wrote:People get shell shocked by the start up costs of Warhammer because of the volume of models needed.

Hardly applicable to someone like mwnciboo who's been playing GW games for years.

chromedog wrote:Yes, but you don't need 20 models to make a unit in infinity - 5 models is usually half an "army".

I'm not going to argue with your point that a 40K army is more expensive than a warmachine or infinity army - you need way more models. However £4 per model is pretty average for many mainstream systems.

Personally, I think a bigger complaint with those HE models is why so boring? I know that uniformity is a bonus in WHFB but still... it looks like there's only three different sculpts in there.

Your logic and reasoning can be proven wrong easily, especially since GW themselves do it.

All you have to do is look at the character pricing

Skirmish gaming is where it's at.

Theres no crying about the prices, now. We already knew GW was a beast to begin with, they are just doing what comes naturally to them now.

Appearently,according to thier own word- People still are throwing money at them hand over fist, from what THEY say.

Nevermind on where the money goes after you pay them. (That 60-70 cents or so of every dollar/ pound is going to.. . Mark Wells. Not GW.)


The writing is on the wall when every one of the old school designers left, and moved on to other companies.

I think that the price increase into insanity was a good thing.

Spead the talent around, pushed gaming in general into new directions, and gives gamers more, not less choice.

The old saying - If you don't like it, move on? Yes. You can move on to almost 1000 different games and use these same "Young Turks" figures for same thing.


Go ahead, GW push that price, to what, 50.00? Why not 100.00 for 5 guys. Remember, your buying a... pork.

Thank you sir, may I have another!!!!

As someone who plays Necromunda, Bloodbowl and BFG, I don't think saying 'but GW makes cheap games as well' is legitimate. These games are old, have major balance issues that GW won't even let the fan community address for them, and nobody really knows about them. I bet if you walk into a GW store and ask one of their teenage customers, they would not know at all what BFG was. Heck, make that one of their younger staff members....

As to the 'why play at 2000pts' question: because thats what the tournament player play, and so thats what the rest of the community ends up playing. At the moment, my community (the active gaming community in gaming clubs) for the large part hasn't switched to 6th edition because they haven't finished the 5th edition tournament circuit yet.

I often buy a new snowboard every couple of years that can easily reach £700 per board... This'll often roll with new bindings and even boots - hell, I've changed my boarding jacket and trousers thrice in as many years. I've easily blown a couple of grand on snowboarding... Everything is relative. Yes, GW is expensive and there has been price-creep over the years for the same amount of models in /x/ boxset but y'know, I'm only going to purchase kits that I want. If I'm getting enjoyment out of a model, both painting and playing with, then I consider it money well spent.

I am sure that there are many here whom would baulk at the price of snowboard equipment. In a slight twist of coincidence, these types of threads also appear on winter sport forums.

Not a price complaint per-se just I hate when they take a older rather ugly metal model that should probably definitely be plastic kits anyway and just convert it direct to finecast.

I mean at least update the model, then finecast it. Far as I can tell GW is simply pouring resin into the old metal molds. Then jacking up the price, because it's finecast.

Which to be honest I like less than metal in so many ways. IE I would say it's inferrior to metal, and they charge more for it.

 Eiríkr wrote:
I often buy a new snowboard every couple of years that can easily reach £700 per board... This'll often roll with new bindings and even boots - hell, I've changed my boarding jacket and trousers thrice in as many years. I've easily blown a couple of grand on snowboarding... Everything is relative. Yes, GW is expensive and there has been price-creep over the years for the same amount of models in /x/ boxset but y'know, I'm only going to purchase kits that I want. If I'm getting enjoyment out of a model, both painting and playing with, then I consider it money well spent.

I am sure that there are many here whom would baulk at the price of snowboard equipment. In a slight twist of coincidence, these types of threads also appear on winter sport forums.

I suppose the issue is that, like with any market, the consumer has a choice whether they buy those products or not, or can buy from an alternate producer.

If one type of snowboard is more expensive than another, then the consumer can always choose that other option. So to with wargaming, we have the choice of manufacturers. Or, as you say, specifically in this case a lot of us already have large collections and so can go with just the odd boxset and so relatively it's not that expensive.

Although I have to say it (and sorry for bringing this up constantly!) but it was wonderful being able to get into a couple of new systems recently, get everything I need, and to have some change back from £100 for them. And that included an army for a friend in one case (without saying which system, the clue is in my signature )
If I was trying to get my kid to start playing games, of course I would let him wander around the FLGS and pick what he wanted off the shelf to start an army, but for purely monetary reasons I would hope that he would stick clear of the GW section!

Oh good.

It's THIS thread again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod1160104a


One Finecast model for $50, probably the most expensive HQ within the Space Marines category

Aww I like the Kroot Warsphere better
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat490028a&prodId=prod1101795

Its quite a bit smaller than Sammael with only slightly more detail than an ping-pong ball. And its $110 Australian. Yay!

Trasvi wrote:
Its quite a bit smaller than Sammael with only slightly more detail than an ping-pong ball. And its $110 Australian. Yay!

That's £70...

wow.

 mwnciboo wrote:
I was browsing the GW Website and saw this for £20.50.



FOR FIVE MODELS....FIVE MODELS!

almost the same as GW Rhino or Drop Pod (my Local store sells RHINO's and PODS at £21), What is going on? I bought a WH Elf set from the Old WH boxed set for £20, which had lots of models,.

I cannot see why this is £20.50 for so little.

And your point is? It may be that I have too much disposable income but I don't mind paying these kinda prices for things I need in my army.

So rich people don't mind spending money? Wow. I've learned something new today.

I can't believe that Kroot Warsphere is $66. It's not even that big.

Compared to my other hobbies and those of some of my friends and family GW/40K is pocket change.

[shrug]

$300 - $500 for an army isn't really all that much of a bind when you think about it. Even $1000 is doable in todays cost of living.

I think the main thing to do is plan your army and buy accordingly, rather than trying to buy 1 or 2 of everything, just buy what you need, a bit like resource management

 Delephont wrote:
$300 - $500 for an army isn't really all that much of a bind when you think about it. Even $1000 is doable in todays cost of living.

I think the main thing to do is plan your army and buy accordingly, rather than trying to buy 1 or 2 of everything, just buy what you need, a bit like resource management

By whose standards though?

Speaking personally, $300-$500 represents a not inconsiderable investment! I'm sure there are many people who don't have that kind of disposable income to throw around on a regular basis. It also goes back to what someone pointed out earlier, which is the perception of value for money of something. I commented that a friend of mine almost choked upon hearing the price of an LoTR Troll (having no other knowledge of the price of miniature wargaming), yet at the same time I am sure that there are some that would have a great desire for that item, and so would be prepared to pay for it.

The issue is here that there is a sliding scale between what someone will be prepared to pay for something, and the point that it becomes too expensive to contemplate purchasing. I made a large list of points in a post a page back about why people might conceive that, as of 2012, GW's prices are beginning to become unreasonably expensive. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of users on Dakka, those who are big fans (enough to spend time registering and commenting on a forum), would deem those High Elves to be too expensive. So, how would a more casual purchaser view them, or a parent looking to get something for their kid? The chance of them scoffing, turning around and heading off to the local 'Game' would be correspondingly that much higher.

I do agree with your second point though, and that sensible planning of purchasing can help. I'm not sure how well that will tie in with getting a maximum 4-5 days of prior notice before a release with respect to new releases.

 Pacific wrote:
By whose standards though?

Speaking personally, $300-$500 represents a not inconsiderable investment! I'm sure there are many people who don't have that kind of disposable income to throw around on a regular basis.

Except he's talking about an army, not just $500 dropped on models.

That's not going to happen on a regular basis. Even the most reliable army hopped isn't going to hop to every new release, and for most people who only play one or two armies, that's pretty much a one off cost, then just smaller purchases to keep the army interesting.

I know my video game addiction cost me much, much, much more than $500 a year (it actually averaged $2000au a year when including systems).

Holy crap, how? Did you buy every console?

Well, I actually had a discussion IRL much along these lines today. Warhammer is actually fairly cheap compared to many other hobbies. If you play MTG booster draft it runs 13$ per go, generally the FLGS runs 3 on a friday night, thats 39$ on one day, and those cards will be worthless in tourneys in a year.
Many MMORPG players play multiple MMOs, so for the sake of argument, lets say you play WoW and EVE, that is 30$ a month that will net you 0 profit. Now lets move onto other hobbies. Frisbee golf discs cost about 15$ per disc, and if you play very often you know they get lost rather easily, so its easy to rack up a decent amount of cash in just lost discs.
Now if shooting is your hobby of choice, a box of 50 .45acp full metal jackets runs about 33$ at WalMart, a box of 100 sports 12 guage shells and a box of 80 clays will cost you around 30 bucks. Now that is a one time thing too.
After this knowledge it actually makes this hobby sound cheap, which I suppose in a ridiculous way it is in comparison to many other hobbies.



As to the people saying 'Well if you do not like the hobby then GTFO', I want to point out many members on here are old school 2nd-3rd ed players when everything was much cheaper, or heck even in my two years of playing I have found the price hikes really suck. And since I have dropped way too much money into the hobby it just means I will gripe but bite the bullet on prices.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Holy crap, how? Did you buy every console?

Two PS3's (one died, first one when they were $800au, second when they were $500au, $400au for a Wii, $400au for a PSP and ~$1500 for a gaming PC). Added to that ~20-25 games per system (I'm a single player whore, I find very few multiplayer games I really enjoy) averaging $80au each, over a period of 4 years.

When I did the math, even average math looking at ways I saved money by getting games cheaper at supermarkets, it fething disgusted me how much I spent on video games. I literally could have bought, over those 4 years, multiple armies for GW games at local prices including expensive FW additions like titans, and not come near how much I spent on video games.

And those video games are now done, I'll likely not replay them, while my Salamanders from 10 years ago are perfectly fine to throw on the table right now. Even a $1000au outlay for a 1500pt army at local prices is nothing compared to a video game addiction.

I actually find GW prices to be very reasonable.

Too bad they refuse to charge me those prices, and instead insist i pay near double or more than what UK/US buyers pay.

No other wargames company does this to me. Local game stores put a small premium on some items, but no other company charges me double for their wares.

This is why i stopped buying GW.

 Wardragoon wrote:




As to the people saying 'Well if you do not like the hobby then GTFO', I want to point out many members on here are old school 2nd-3rd ed players when everything was much cheaper, or heck even in my two years of playing I have found the price hikes really suck. And since I have dropped way too much money into the hobby it just means I will gripe but bite the bullet on prices.

Man I remember when a land raider was $50, 2 years ago. Now it is $75. And a Storm Raven is $82.

 Noisy_Marine wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:




As to the people saying 'Well if you do not like the hobby then GTFO', I want to point out many members on here are old school 2nd-3rd ed players when everything was much cheaper, or heck even in my two years of playing I have found the price hikes really suck. And since I have dropped way too much money into the hobby it just means I will gripe but bite the bullet on prices.

Man I remember when a land raider was $50, 2 years ago. Now it is $75. And a Storm Raven is $82.

Exactly, so for modern prices you could have 2 years ago bought 3 Land Raiders, just odd that someone this new into the hobby has seen this much of a price hike in warhammer(50% more cash for a plastic tank makes my wallet cry)

I remember thinking land raiders were overpriced at $50. I never thought I'd be looking at the same model years later and seeing it priced close to $80, I figured GW would have to be stupid to do that when the prices were already scaring people away left and right. It's a horrifying thought but I honestly think another 3-4 years from now we'll see $100 land raiders and GW will show no signs of stopping then, either.

I'd do that whole "They're shooting themselves in the foot!" thing, but they've blown off both legs at this point and are somehow still clinging desperately to life. I wonder just how fanatical GW fans are, will they buy $100 land raiders? $200? When is it too much?

 Sidstyler wrote:
It's a horrifying thought but I honestly think another 3-4 years from now we'll see $100 land raiders and GW will show no signs of stopping then, either.

Something to note - we didn't get a lot of the latest price increase in Australia. Lands Raiders and Storm Ravens were untouched, as were the Tyranid increases. We got some, like the Aspect warrior increases, but we were spared the more ridiculous ones. So it seems GW does know there's a ceiling on their prices and won't breach them. They've hit it mostly in Australia, but it seems they still think the US has some room left to go.

Diablo $39, spent 200 hours on it since release.

*Looks at $40 finecost Necron HQ "How you doin?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I remember thinking land raiders were overpriced at $50. I never thought I'd be looking at the same model years later and seeing it priced close to $80, I figured GW would have to be stupid to do that when the prices were already scaring people away left and right. It's a horrifying thought but I honestly think another 3-4 years from now we'll see $100 land raiders and GW will show no signs of stopping then, either.

I'd do that whole "They're shooting themselves in the foot!" thing, but they've blown off both legs at this point and are somehow still clinging desperately to life. I wonder just how fanatical GW fans are, will they buy $100 land raiders? $200? When is it too much?

The stormraven which was same price as a land raider, is $100 already in Canada :<

 Sidstyler wrote:


I'd do that whole "They're shooting themselves in the foot!" thing, but they've blown off both legs at this point and are somehow still clinging desperately to life. I wonder just how fanatical GW fans are, will they buy $100 land raiders? $200? When is it too much?

Most people who are okay with $80 landraiders don't need to buy any LRs no more.

And with your metaphor I kinda imagined the Black Knight in Monty Python. "It's just a flesh wound!"

 -Loki- wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
Holy crap, how? Did you buy every console?

Two PS3's (one died, first one when they were $800au, second when they were $500au, $400au for a Wii, $400au for a PSP and ~$1500 for a gaming PC). Added to that ~20-25 games per system (I'm a single player whore, I find very few multiplayer games I really enjoy) averaging $80au each, over a period of 4 years.

When I did the math, even average math looking at ways I saved money by getting games cheaper at supermarkets, it fething disgusted me how much I spent on video games. I literally could have bought, over those 4 years, multiple armies for GW games at local prices including expensive FW additions like titans, and not come near how much I spent on video games.

And those video games are now done, I'll likely not replay them, while my Salamanders from 10 years ago are perfectly fine to throw on the table right now. Even a $1000au outlay for a 1500pt army at local prices is nothing compared to a video game addiction.

Did Australia do an embargo on ebay as well? Just like you can buy cheap GW stuff on ebay
whats stopping you from purchasing games on ebay? last time I checked most sellers do world wide shipping,
and each games are like $35 ish....

Some day I gotta see these purchases of yours lol...

For the last 4 years , I spent like under $200 on games.

$50 a year ;')

I don't buy the argument that because some hobbies are more expensive than miniature wargaming that GW can charge whatever they want.

Take an expensive hobby like off-roading. Now imagine if the 4x4 manufacturers started increasing their prices by 10-15% a year on whole vehicles and parts. Now imagine someone coming along and telling them that since off-roading is cheaper than yacht racing, it's okay. Then the yacht companies start raising prices 10-15% a year again and again and when people object, the white knights can tell them it's okay because yacht racing is cheap compared to space tourism.

I think the real reason for the price increases is that GW has realized it's okay to churn their customer base. They target their products at teens who will quit in a couple years and hope to replace them with new customers. If someone quits in less than two years, they might only experience one price increase and not really think anything is out of line.

The higher and higher GW increases the prices, the more and more they make room in the market for competition. And not just because people might go for a cheaper alternative but because the higher prices being seen as normal mean smaller manufacturers can get in at a lower scale of production because they can price more aggressively thanks to GW's change of expectations among a significant segment of the gaming population.

 heartserenade wrote:
And with your metaphor I kinda imagined the Black Knight in Monty Python. "It's just a flesh wound!"

lol, that somehow seems very appropriate, too, if what we've heard about the culture at GW is true at all.

As far as gaming on the cheap goes, Steam sales help with that a lot if you're into PC gaming. Haven't been much of a console gamer since the PS2 days myself...

 Scott-S6 wrote:
You realise that's a typical per-mini cost for Infinity or Warmachine or Malifxau or Mercs (mercs is more) or, well, lots of other games?

Wow. It only took 5 posts this time for someone to point this out. Must be some sort of record.

Of course, you don't need quite as many models in any of those games than you do for Warhammer. And using "But Necromunda doesn't need as many" is just a red herring.

The whole argument seems to hinge on not whether the imdividual components are expensive, but whether it is expensive compared to other Hobbies.

The problem is Hobbies is a wide remit, comparing War gaming with Paintballing, Shooting or any other sport/ pastime is not a fair comparison.

So if we restrict it to just other miniature games, or miniature / model based hobbies you can see a massive discrepency,

I took up FLAMES OF WAR in about 3 years ago, and invested £200 in it, a not inconsiderable sum to a man with a Wife, Kids, house car, Holidays etc etc. So 10 years back as a younger 20-something I had no wife, no kids etc and higher disposable income and spent more on Wine, women and song, however I was still concious of not sinking all of my money into a hobby / pastime.

FOW was a reasonable game system, I could literally put together an entire force for £100, and extra supplementary platoons and list so my large ORBAT would give me 10 or so Army list options for a further £100. This to me, is good value with £200 total and 10 different styles of Armies from EARTH & STEEL, infantry, recon, arty, mech, Armour or Mech Infantry lists.

Lets take a 1500 points SM force. A decent army needs a minimum backbone (if not more), that would be:-

2 x TACTICAL SQUAD (£23 x 2 = £46)
2 x RHINO (£22.50 x 2 = £45)

This isn't even a full army but will cost you £91, and this is not even close to a full army.

If you compare like with like, e.g MANTIC full sized tournament army, or a Privateer Press skirmish force or a FOW 1750 force. I understand why, but considering the UK has been in a recession since 2008, and the world has been financially insecure and why has GW smashed up it's prices regardless of financial conditions. Their Share-price has been very good, which is great for Shareholders e.g (Mr Kirby) and not great for us. Many of us have branched out into other systems because of price pressures.

MANTIC :-



£14.99 for 10 Figures.



£9.99 for 5 Figures.

This is much more reasonable, however the GW prices are high to stop the haemorrhaging of their Retail arm. Time to slim down their Retail Operation and move into cheaper premises on the high street, and stop buying high end retail space for a niche product,

 LunaHound wrote:
Diablo $39, spent 200 hours on it since release.

*Looks at $40 finecost Necron HQ "How you doin?"

And you're lucky if that necron HQ didn't come out of the package heavily bubbled and damaged.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Archaon.

One cavalry model.

Go look.

AUS: $83

CDN: $57.67

US: $47.65

UK: $45.67

(all in AUS dollars)

So much for GW costing the same as others on a per model basis. I couldn't find a 40mm based fantasy model for anywhere near that price. And Archaon is what? A 10 year old sculpt now?

I guess GW expects mommy to open up her wallet for Timmy without thinking too much about the contents of the kit. "Well Timmy, if you're sure that's what you want for your birthday..."

Archaon is a special character and still considered one of the best sculpts in GW's entire line by many people.

Is it overpriced, yes, but everything considered it is not the best example to prove the point that GW's models are overpriced.

I am not defending GW's prices btw. A lot of their stuff is absolutely rediculously priced considering what you get in game-terms, especially everything (not-so)finecast. Mentioning Necromunda is a bit desperate though. Fred Flintstone probably sculpted most of those models back in the day

Warmachine/Hordes isn't that cheap either since they moved away from being the skirmish game they started out being.

 TBD wrote:
Archaon is a special character and still considered one of the best sculpts in GW's entire line by many people.

Quality of sculpt shouldn't be a factor at all - there's some terrible sculpts at premium prices too. Special character, I'll grant you, as everyone does it. The price of a Carnifex for one cavalry model, special character or not, is obscene.

 -Loki- wrote:

 TBD wrote:
Archaon is a special character and still considered one of the best sculpts in GW's entire line by many people.

Quality of sculpt shouldn't be a factor at all - there's some terrible sculpts at premium prices too.

I agree, but when perception of value for money comes into play it does play an important part.

If prices go up x%, people don't spend x% more, they will buy x% less.

Honestly I think high prices aren't putting people off nearly as much as a good old-fashioned recession.

mwnciboo wrote: Many of us have branched out into other systems because of price pressures.

MANTIC :-



£14.99 for 10 Figures.



£9.99 for 5 Figures.

This is much more reasonable, however the GW prices are high to stop the haemorrhaging of their Retail arm. Time to slim down their Retail Operation and move into cheaper premises on the high street, and stop buying high end retail space for a niche product,

When one of those cheaper companies makes a model which isn't ugly, bad proportions, visually 'wrong' or all around uninteresting, I will buy them. So far, the only models which actually look good either all have similar prices as GW or are more than GW. The Mantic pictures you have posted have serious flaws from the waste down which make them a non-starter to me. I suppose you get what you pay for. The fact they fixed those flaws in thier dreadball boxed set shows me they know this particular model is flawed but they still sell it.

I buy the models which interest me to paint. If you don't care about how your models look and they are nothing more than game tokens, I suggest using cheap tokens instead.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TBD wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 TBD wrote:
Archaon is a special character and still considered one of the best sculpts in GW's entire line by many people.

Quality of sculpt shouldn't be a factor at all - there's some terrible sculpts at premium prices too.

I agree, but when perception of value for money comes into play it does play an important part.

And most of the cheap 'alternatives' are ugly... I recommend buying models which look good. Just happens to be so far a majority of the good looking, well-sculpted models are higher priced. I feel like you get what you pay for.

nkelsch wrote:
When one of those cheaper companies makes a model which isn't ugly, bad proportions, visually 'wrong' or all around uninteresting, I will buy them. So far, the only models which actually look good either all have similar prices as GW or are more than GW.

Corvus Belli's infantry models are sold 8.75 euros each (that's roughly $11). Looking at GW's website, most single infantry metal/finecast models are priced $15 or above. And CB has arguably one of the best sculpts right now, and at the very least their females look like actual females and not men with cleavages.

Dark Sword miniatures also has fine sculpts (especially their George R.R. Martin line), and they're selling it $10 or less each piece.

Both lines are as visually appealing (or more so) than GW's, and they both charge less.

 TBD wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 TBD wrote:
Archaon is a special character and still considered one of the best sculpts in GW's entire line by many people.

Quality of sculpt shouldn't be a factor at all - there's some terrible sculpts at premium prices too.

I agree, but when perception of value for money comes into play it does play an important part.

Perception of value dictates that these are models/toys. PLASTIC models/toys. Most at only two inches high, and with as much material as a marble in them. While they are very finely made, a lot of them aren't worth the price tag put on them. Craftsmen who sell their wares on the streets don't charge the price GW does. But GW gets away with it because they are a company, and people still buy their products. Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant, since they get away with it, but then people are always enablers.

I just bought a 2750 Point Necron army brand new with Codex for £321 delivered. That's as big an army as I'm ever likely to need.

That's a lot of money, but not as bad as it can be (Imperial Guard) and the fact is that I was unable to realistically collect the army I want (blob guard) because of price - it's just too daunting to me and would take too long to get the money together but I compromised.

I think anyone can hobby within their own limits easily enough.

Having said that, I do feel the urge to get out of the hobby altogether now and then but it's usually at times like this when GW release something I have no interest in and the rumours don't excite me

 heartserenade wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
When one of those cheaper companies makes a model which isn't ugly, bad proportions, visually 'wrong' or all around uninteresting, I will buy them. So far, the only models which actually look good either all have similar prices as GW or are more than GW.

Corvus Belli's infantry models are sold 8.75 euros each (that's roughly $11). Looking at GW's website, most single infantry metal/finecast models are priced $15 or above. And CB has arguably one of the best sculpts right now, and at the very least their females look like actual females and not men with cleavages.

Dark Sword miniatures also has fine sculpts (especially their George R.R. Martin line), and they're selling it $10 or less each piece.

Both lines are as visually appealing (or more so) than GW's, and they both charge less.

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebsite_html/store.html
Let's see... Xmas Honey Badger, Bewbtastic Barbarian chick... Grim Reaper Frog. Uninspired generic animals. I am straining to find a single miniature on that page which is visually interesting and I would want to paint for the sake of painting let alone being a model i would use in any form of gaming.

http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440078a&rootCatGameStyle=
Infantry heroes for 9-15$ us

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/minions/solos
Infantry characters for 10-16$

Being in the US... I get no benefit about buying Euro models... and since I don't live in Australia, I don't really care about thier prices. They are free to shop elsewhere.

The people who make excellent figures which I am interested in already make them at a price which is in the middle of what EVERYONE ELSE already charges. I am not going to buy inferior sculpts or uninteresting good sculpts from other lines because I might save 1$.

I will also pay a premium when there is a model I really love like much of the AoW line.http://www.avatars-of-war.com/eng/web/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&rscroll=0&id=74&Itemid=134

If I buy a single model... how much someone else needs to play a game has no impact on me the same way what someone in another country pays has no impact on me. I am not going to buy poorly sculpted or generally uninteresting models, especially ones which don't fit with the gaming systems I play or models I collect because there is maybe a 1$ per difference.

The comparisons are getting ridiculous to be honest... besides since when the quality of one mini is exclusively dependant of personal tastes? You can only avaluate if a miniature has quality or not if you look at the sum of all parts of that makes a mini ( the sculp ittself/ the design and the cast) These are palpable things that dont require personal tastes. Avaluating the quality of one mini by basing it on your totally random personal tastes is irrelevant.

nkelsch wrote:
[http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

The difference is that you buy that 6 men Infinity box + 5 or 6 more blisters and you have the fully playable & competitive equivalent of a 2000 pts 40K force.

You basically spend about 90,- euros (often even less) on ANY faction in the game, in almost any combination of blisters/boxes/mini's you like, and you have everything you need (to play the equivalent of 2000pts 40K). Both GW and PP can't say the same. They both have good starter kit deals, but those are only those specific few sets.

If you like a futuristic urban warfare skirmish game I would really look into this game. Imo Corvus Belli has hit the jackpot with this on all fronts. They offer very good value for your money.

 NAVARRO wrote:
The comparisons are getting ridiculous to be honest... besides since when the quality of one mini is exclusively dependant of personal tastes? You can only avaluate if a miniature has quality or not if you look at the sum of all parts of that makes a mini ( the sculp ittself/ the design and the cast) These are palpable things that dont require personal tastes. Avaluating the quality of one mini by basing it on your totally random personal tastes is irrelevant.

But... even if I don't compare the quality... they all cost about the same anyways... so why not buy what people want to buy based upon their personal tastes?

The reason people haven't ditched GW to starve in a ditch and buy these other models is because people like GW models, GW games and GW fluff and are not drawn to these alternatives.

If you see these models as nothing more than expensive tokens, then go for the cheapest models you can find. Knock yourself out. When you boil it down, per model almost all the companies cost similar ammounts and GW is in the middle of the pack with most of the big model producers with many small premium figure companies and 3rd party limited runs being more, and people intending to provide mass cheap token-based models being less.

This idea that somehow the number of models needed to play a game changes a 12$ model to be cheaper than another 12$ model is still not valid.

People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.

There's a whole host of things I'd love to do, Formula 1 racing, 50/50 Shares in the Playboy mansion, maybe a trip or two to the outer atmosphere curtesy of Virgin.....but heres the bind, I can't really afford to do it.

I could lament the fact, maybe go onto forums dedicated to those pastimes and complain about the insane price of entry and ongoing costs to stay in the "game".......

Ultimately you have to realise that this hobby, like many others, isn't an "every-man" hobby, people who wish to partake must decide to do so either based on an unlimited income, or based on the sacrifice of other financial outlets.....Warhammer and GW games in general may once have been touted as products for the masses, well, maybe you didn't get the memo, it's as elitist as every other highend, high cost hobby on the planet.

Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

 TBD wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
[http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

The difference is that you buy that 6 men Infinity box + 5 or 6 more blisters and you have the fully playable & competitive equivalent of a 2000 pts 40K force.

You basically spend about 90,- euros (often even less) on ANY faction in the game, in almost any combination of blisters/boxes/mini's you like, and you have everything you need (to play the equivalent of 2000pts 40K). Both GW and PP can't say the same. They both have good starter kit deals, but those are only those specific few sets.

If you like a futuristic urban warfare skirmish game I would really look into this game. Imo Corvus Belli has hit the jackpot with this on all fronts. They offer very good value for your money.

1. Apocalyptic human future genre does zero for me... and the models are uninteresting. Personally, I like the 40k universe and I like fantasy models, especially single models which are neat, and can be combined with models from other lines for RPG games.

2. If I want a skirmish game or a low-model count game, I will need a game others actually play. There isn't even a store near me who sells Corvus Belli which makes it hard for me to 'pay where I play'. Besides... I prefer Bloodbowl or other board games for low-model count.

3. Value for my money? I have literally thousands of Minis... a 12$ model doesn't become cheaper than another 12$ money simply because the game requires 12 models vs 120 models. There is no savings, no change in value and no deal... especially for a game I can't buy locally, that no one plays and is totally uninteresting. An AoW model which costs twice as much has more value because it fills multiple needs for me as both a WH Fantasy model, a RPG dungeon hero or villain, as well as nice shelf eyecandy and is an excellent sculpt. How is generic woman with butt in air on a future bike good value for my money?

I can see no different in the price per mini and that is all that matters. This idea of cost of entry to game systems is a red herring as not all minis are purchased for gaming systems and sometimes they are bought per mini. If you value things differently, go ahead... but that hardly makes things cheaper for everyone.

nkelsch wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
The comparisons are getting ridiculous to be honest... besides since when the quality of one mini is exclusively dependant of personal tastes? You can only avaluate if a miniature has quality or not if you look at the sum of all parts of that makes a mini ( the sculp ittself/ the design and the cast) These are palpable things that dont require personal tastes. Avaluating the quality of one mini by basing it on your totally random personal tastes is irrelevant.

But... even if I don't compare the quality... they all cost about the same anyways... so why not buy what people want to buy based upon their personal tastes?
.

They all cost about the same? Really? Companies like hasslefree, reaper among others do seem to produce high quality sculpts at cheaper prices to me... or since they are cheaper they are as you say "inferior sculpts"? or because they are not "visually interesting" to You personally they are auto excluded from the discussion?

Not to buy what you want? That makes no sense to the point Im addressing.

Me personally? I can spend 100 euros, as I did, on one 28mm if the quality is there. I also dont have any tabus regarding labels or brands.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:


I can see no different in the price per mini and that is all that matters. This idea of cost of entry to game systems is a red herring as not all minis are purchased for gaming systems and sometimes they are bought per mini. If you value things differently, go ahead... but that hardly makes things cheaper for everyone.

Its cheaper for infinity players... and thats the diference!

 Delephont wrote:
People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.

There's a whole host of things I'd love to do, Formula 1 racing, 50/50 Shares in the Playboy mansion, maybe a trip or two to the outer atmosphere curtesy of Virgin.....but heres the bind, I can't really afford to do it.

I could lament the fact, maybe go onto forums dedicated to those pastimes and complain about the insane price of entry and ongoing costs to stay in the "game".......

Ultimately you have to realise that this hobby, like many others, isn't an "every-man" hobby, people who wish to partake must decide to do so either based on an unlimited income, or based on the sacrifice of other financial outlets.....Warhammer and GW games in general may once have been touted as products for the masses, well, maybe you didn't get the memo, it's as elitist as every other highend, high cost hobby on the planet.

Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

Well, I suppose the point would be that many of us remember when this was not the case. GW paints itself as the only way in the miniature wargaming hobby, while at the same time pricing out a pretty high percentage of kids who will therefore never get to try or experience it.

Sure there are other wargames out there, but in the UK at least the FLGS is only just starting to make it's presence known again. The chances are a lot of kids will go into a GW store, have a really fun intro game, tug at their parents shirt sleeve in eager hope and then be told "you must be joking" after they have totalled up the costs.

That to me, and I don't care what else you say, makes me rather sad about the whole situation. And ultimately in terms of the wider industry there will be less fresh blood coming into it, which is good for absolutely no-one.

 Delephont wrote:
People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.



Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

Bottom line is the only reasonable parallel that you can make between golf and 40k is that both golf balls and finecast have holes in it... the rest is just ridiculous... Funny how some of you do seem to embrace the fallacy that these kits are some kind of premium thing or activity... I guess GW gospel did really bend some minds into believing in that nonsense.

The prices are mental imo, i've bought everything off ebay so far and had some great deals.

I

 NAVARRO wrote:
Bottom line is the only reasonable parallel that you can make between golf and 40k is that both golf balls and finecast have holes in it... the rest is just ridiculous... Funny how some of you do seem to embrace the fallacy that these kits are some kind of premium thing or activity... I guess GW gospel did really bend some minds into believing in that nonsense.

I perceive it as premium, and not with regards to because it's expensive (which all hobbies are). The kits are high quality. Yes there have been issues such as finecast, but on the whole GWs products cannot be said to be 'meh' in their quality. Yes they are also expensive, but if you actually look into the production costs etc etc then you see why that is.

flonky wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Bottom line is the only reasonable parallel that you can make between golf and 40k is that both golf balls and finecast have holes in it... the rest is just ridiculous... Funny how some of you do seem to embrace the fallacy that these kits are some kind of premium thing or activity... I guess GW gospel did really bend some minds into believing in that nonsense.

I perceive it as premium, and not with regards to because it's expensive (which all hobbies are). The kits are high quality. Yes there have been issues such as finecast, but on the whole GWs products cannot be said to be 'meh' in their quality. Yes they are also expensive, but if you actually look into the production costs etc etc then you see why that is.

On the whole you have both high quality and the lowest quality on the market ( FC)... that IMO does not make a High quality product overall. Production costs the only reason of the prices? I dont think so my friend... there are more things on the table ( and one of them is the " we are the ferrari" stance)

You say high quality, but compared to what? If GW are correct in that the majority of people buying their stuff don't play, then maybe they should be compared to display models. In which case comparisons with many other fantasy and military model companies can be made. And there are many companies doing far more impressive things with resin and plastic kits than GW offer. And these companies sell to adults as requiring an adult level of skill, and they still don't have all the nonsense problems that Finecast has when GW know they are selling largely to an age group of people that will be inexperienced modellers.

Actually, trying to explain their prices as being due to production costs, hmm I don't think so. They aren't that high, most of GW's overheads result from propping up their retail arm full of shops in city centres. Like so many manufactured goods, the cost of production is low in the final produced goods, even though they are still made in the UK. Though they did try to make a move into production in China all the same.

Also they are the biggest wargames company around and should benefit from economy of scale regarding manufacturing costs, yet apart from some very small premium companies (Studio McVey), their models are all top prices. While they charge premium prices I really don't see GW as a premium product overall because there's so many other people that have been doing better for longer. Don't get me wrong, they are good, but all this 'premium' stuff is overstating it a bit.

 Delephont wrote:
People seem to think that the statement "If you don't like the costs or can't afford it, don't play, do something else" to be unreasonable.......I really don't understand why.

There's a whole host of things I'd love to do, Formula 1 racing, 50/50 Shares in the Playboy mansion, maybe a trip or two to the outer atmosphere curtesy of Virgin.....but heres the bind, I can't really afford to do it.

I could lament the fact, maybe go onto forums dedicated to those pastimes and complain about the insane price of entry and ongoing costs to stay in the "game".......

Ultimately you have to realise that this hobby, like many others, isn't an "every-man" hobby, people who wish to partake must decide to do so either based on an unlimited income, or based on the sacrifice of other financial outlets.....Warhammer and GW games in general may once have been touted as products for the masses, well, maybe you didn't get the memo, it's as elitist as every other highend, high cost hobby on the planet.

Bottom line is pay up, or go elsewhere! The prices arn't going to drop, and when you think about it, why should they. If you can't afford to spend £20 on five miniatures GW doesn't want to know you, same as the expensive Golf club in your area, if you can't spend £1000+ on golf shoes don't even think about stepping on the green.

I do agree with this, trust me there are a lot more expensive and worse 'hobbies' out there. Its not just the cost of the models for me, its also the social aspect, ive only just got back into it and already met a few cool people, its a way to use my brain which even with running my own companies its not exactly hard for me, and painting converting etc. I used to play 2nd ed when I was about 14, so 15 years ago and I stopped then as it was too expensive I have thought about getting back into it a few times but didnt spend the time going to gaming clubs to see what they are like, now I have and its prompted me to start collecting a army. I have been reading the BL HH books for the past year or more though and with the new FW HH book coming out that has tipped it in the favour of starting again.

This weekend alone Ive spent over 400pound on models, all of them core troops or armour plus 2 box sets ive still yet to buy dreads or Land raiders so thats another 100. And my oringal plan was to do a 30k RG army using FW bits so that will be next on the list after the 30k book comes out, yes its quite a bit of money (GBP by the way) but why not, I plan to at least have a game a week, most probably two so I should get my moneys worth out of them in time and enjoyment, if not I am sure I will be able to ebay them for a resonable amount.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Production costs the only reason of the prices? I dont think so my friend... there are more things on the table ( and one of them is the " we are the ferrari" stance)

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Actually, trying to explain their prices as being due to production costs, hmm I don't think so. They aren't that high, most of GW's overheads result from propping up their retail arm full of shops in city centres. Like so many manufactured goods, the cost of production is low in the final produced goods, even though they are still made in the UK. Though they did try to make a move into production in China all the same.

Read my post again. Production etc etc. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean just production costs. Anyways, read GW financial report. Their profit margin is about average for a business their size. Perhaps they could be doing business more efficiently, but the whole idea of them making sky-high profits is a myth.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
You say high quality, but compared to what? If GW are correct in that the majority of people buying their stuff don't play, then maybe they should be compared to display models. In which case comparisons with many other fantasy and military model companies can be made. And there are many companies doing far more impressive things with resin and plastic kits than GW offer. And these companies sell to adults as requiring an adult level of skill, and they still don't have all the nonsense problems that Finecast has when GW know they are selling largely to an age group of people that will be inexperienced modellers.

Also they are the biggest wargames company around and should benefit from economy of scale regarding manufacturing costs, yet apart from some very small premium companies (Studio McVey), their models are all top prices. While they charge premium prices I really don't see GW as a premium product overall because there's so many other people that have been doing better for longer. Don't get me wrong, they are good, but all this 'premium' stuff is overstating it a bit.

GW caters to young and adult, and people really into the modelling aspect and those who just want to game ASAP. So I feel it is a tad unfair to compare to display model companies that cater to a different crowd.

I guess the whole idea of what is premium is so subjective, anyway. It depends on a variety of factors such as income. Some people think warhammer is expensive, some see it as peanuts. Some think it is good quality, some not, for various subjective reasons.

I will tell something that is not subjective for sure... Wargamming is not expensive or a premium hobby... Its a peoples game and anyone who has time and money to think on hobbies ( many unfortunatly are on the limiar of poverty) can have fun with this.

Well I was mostly arguing that the models are premium, but whatever.

What does 'peoples game' mean?

Oh look. its this thread again.

Kidding aside, it is ridiculous some of the stuff GW sells. I don't know how they think they get away with it, or if they even do. I cant remember its exact name, but a vampire count units, blood knights(?) cost a bleedin £60. 60. QUID. Its ridiculous.

flonky wrote:
Well I was mostly arguing that the models are premium, but whatever.

What does 'peoples game' mean?

I could post some pics of the models you call premium that would scare the most lazy & incompetent caster in the industry
It's a open game/activity that can be played by anyone that wishes to, can be shared by all ages and by all familly and more importantly to this topic its not something limited to some self entitled elite with deep pockets...

Actually you should be happy with my argument because I'm not even comparing GW stuff with the display models industry

nkelsch wrote:


1. Apocalyptic human future genre does zero for me... and the models are uninteresting. Personally, I like the 40k universe and I like fantasy models, especially single models which are neat, and can be combined with models from other lines for RPG games.

2. If I want a skirmish game or a low-model count game, I will need a game others actually play. There isn't even a store near me who sells Corvus Belli which makes it hard for me to 'pay where I play'. Besides... I prefer Bloodbowl or other board games for low-model count.

3. Value for my money? I have literally thousands of Minis... a 12$ model doesn't become cheaper than another 12$ money simply because the game requires 12 models vs 120 models. There is no savings, no change in value and no deal... especially for a game I can't buy locally, that no one plays and is totally uninteresting. An AoW model which costs twice as much has more value because it fills multiple needs for me as both a WH Fantasy model, a RPG dungeon hero or villain, as well as nice shelf eyecandy and is an excellent sculpt. How is generic woman with butt in air on a future bike good value for my money?

I can see no different in the price per mini and that is all that matters. This idea of cost of entry to game systems is a red herring as not all minis are purchased for gaming systems and sometimes they are bought per mini. If you value things differently, go ahead... but that hardly makes things cheaper for everyone.

It was just a friendly heads up towards a very good product & game. That is why I said if...

If you don't like it that is obviously fine and you can go buy whatever floats your boat. Maybe you like miniatures of pig-men in bikinis who shoot kayfabe lightning rods out of their arses and consider those the best value for your money. That is all cool because my initial point was that something is good value for your money as long as you consider it so.

Infinity's setting is not post apocalyptic btw, and good job picking the horrible Kum Biker(s) as an example

About the 3rd point though, nobody ever said a $12 model becomes cheaper than another $12 model, but if one $12 model does a whole lot more for you in a game than the other, then that first model makes the game cheaper and thus gives you more for your $$$. We are not talking about model vs model, but what a model is within a game system. It matters quite a lot if you need, say, five $12,- models or (the equivalent of) thirty of them.
If you want to say that models should be judged 1 on 1 because people buy them for collecting purposes instead of gaming-system purposes then that is fine too, but until proven otherwise that is the exception rather than the norm. The majority is still bought with it's intended gaming purpose in mind, and this entire discussion is mostly about GW's prices, and GW happens to push large armies full of huge regiments of expensive miniatures upon us. These discussions are always about GW's prices and GW's prices compared to other companies' prices. In that regard the value the model has within the gaming system should indeed be thé #1 way to look at it, as that is the way the majority of gamers will look at it when determining what they deem fair pricing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
If GW are correct in that the majority of people buying their stuff don't play, then maybe they should be compared to display models.

I really believe that GW is only saying this because it suits their agenda and makes it easier to counter price-decision critics.

How the hell does GW know who plays and who doesn't? They can't sufficiently register who buys what and how often and what it ends up getting used for.

nkelsch wrote:

http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebsite_html/store.html
Let's see... Xmas Honey Badger, Bewbtastic Barbarian chick... Grim Reaper Frog. Uninspired generic animals. I am straining to find a single miniature on that page which is visually interesting and I would want to paint for the sake of painting let alone being a model i would use in any form of gaming.

All the while ignoring these, the minis I was describing in my previous post btw.:

http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/02_tiendainf_rtdo.asp?IDNOTICIA=353
40$ for 6 28mm infantry men is not a bad price but not drastically cheaper than PP or GW or other parties out there. It is on average lower... but 11$ per singal man-sized model when I can get an orc or goblin for 9-15$ US from GW I really don't see a huge difference or why I would strain my neck looking towards Corvus Belli unless I was interested in their fluff.

But you do need to admit that a) they are cheaper and b) they are, objectively, high quality sculpts that would require great skill to create.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440078a&rootCatGameStyle=
Infantry heroes for 9-15$ us

I don't see $9 models. They're $9.90, basically $10.

Did you notice too that the $9.90 models are smaller infantry a.k.a. goblins?

And the average GW infantry model costs? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440271a&rootCatGameStyle=

Being in the US... I get no benefit about buying Euro models... and since I don't live in Australia, I don't really care about thier prices. They are free to shop elsewhere.

And being in the Philippines, I don't benefit from anything at all. The point still stands: you were pointing out the cheaper models are lesser in quality and I pointed out that there are quality models which are cheaper.

If I buy a single model... how much someone else needs to play a game has no impact on me the same way what someone in another country pays has no impact on me. I am not going to buy poorly sculpted or generally uninteresting models, especially ones which don't fit with the gaming systems I play or models I collect because there is maybe a 1$ per difference.

That wasn't the point. That's your personal taste. My point was other companies sell models on par or in higher quality (especially now that there's Finecast, but that's another matter) with GW, and yet they charge less.

And when has Infinity become post-apocalyptic? At the very best it's as post-apocalyptic as Appleseed, and nothing says post-apocalyptic as a pristine city that looks like this:



You can imagine all the healthy, well-adjusted zombies living there or something.

And all I see is a bunch of bland, boring generic sculpts costing 1-2$ less than GW and PP, and then I see deeply flawed sculpts from mantic costing much much less. Then I see amazing models from AoW costing 1-2$ more than GW and PP.

And all of them are pretty close in price... So I should buy what appeals opposed to somehow calling everything overpriced because one line has a few models which I don't want for less than GW.

Everyone's minis cost about the same. And telling people who mostly play fantasy and 40k and telling them to buy cheaper historical and Appleseed (whatever that is) models doesn't help. That is like telling someone who is trying to buy a 2000$ bike that it is too expensive and they should buy a 1000$ riding lawnmower because they are both forms of transportation even though the person has no grass to mow and they explicitly want to ride a bike.

flonky wrote:
GW caters to young and adult, and people really into the modelling aspect and those who just want to game ASAP. So I feel it is a tad unfair to compare to display model companies that cater to a different crowd.

Just sounds like people trying to have it both ways, in my opinion...GW models are high-quality display pieces when people bitch about prices, and gaming pieces when people complain about the lack of detail when compared to real display models. : \

There just isn't any real way to defend their prices, in my opinion. As far as gaming models go they're decent enough, but really, models are models, doesn't really matter what they're used for...so if I'm paying upwards of $80 for a tank it better damn-well be the best fething tank I've ever bought. And they're not...I can go to another model manufacturer, get a tank that has higher-quality components and an insane amount of detail that makes GW's best offerings look like the child's toys most people see them for, and end up paying about the same or less for it.

True, those other models aren't designed to be played with, they're purely for display...which, if you ask me, means GW should charge more realistic prices for their models to make up for the sacrifice in detail they have to make in order for them to be practical enough to game with. No one is forcing GW to charge $80 for a tank, so how is it "unfair" for me to compare them to a similar product? It's actually a much better comparison than the people comparing the "GW Hobby" to video gaming or yacht racing.

nkelsch wrote:
And all I see is a bunch of bland, boring generic sculpts costing 1-2$ less than GW and PP, and then I see deeply flawed sculpts from mantic costing much much less. Then I see amazing models from AoW costing 1-2$ more than GW and PP.

And all of them are pretty close in price... So I should buy what appeals opposed to somehow calling everything overpriced because one line has a few models which I don't want for less than GW.

Everyone's minis cost about the same. And telling people who mostly play fantasy and 40k and telling them to buy cheaper historical and Appleseed (whatever that is) models doesn't help. That is like telling someone who is trying to buy a 2000$ bike that it is too expensive and they should buy a 1000$ riding lawnmower because they are both forms of transportation even though the person has no grass to mow and they explicitly want to ride a bike.

Did you not get the, "need more," part of the argument? It's much more like needing three of those $2000 bikes compared to just the one $2000 bike that does just as much as those 3 other bikes combined.

Just because you don't like the models or background subjectively doesn't mean there won't be people who do (who doesn't know about Game of Thrones now anyways?); plus no one is twisting your arm to go out and buy models you don't like or want, but its a lil hard to argue over prices of models and what they do in-game or quality wise when you're only basing it on that you like Warhammer and don't like other Fantasy/Sci-fi

Yeah...

GW went to plastic-resin and increased the costs by 20%,

Mantic, Reaper and others replaced metal with plastic-resin and reduced they costs, sometimes by 50% (or more).

So, why in the hell i keep buying GW?

I like those space orkz, that is the only reason. But GW is nonsense...

Personally I really like the look of Dark Sword's stuff, since I was given books like this, and this to look at as a kid. I like that classic fantasy style.

I'm really pleased that everyone has stuck the issues without descending into a purile argument.

I always have a problem with the attitude of "If you don't like it, buy something else" or "the hobby is expensive get over yourself". Well I have to say no, on both counts because this acceptance of what is going on is akin to being an easily led sheep. GW has increased the prices year on year, regardless of financial circumstances, FINECAST has acted like a springboard for a further inflation busting price hike. My own take on this is that the current Executive Board and specifically Mr Kirby are lining their pockets handsomely. This is the fundamental problem of a Company that has generated such affection from it's fanbase, that when it goes Corporate, well the bottomline becomes Share price/investors and not the fanbase and to some degree not the products.

I believe GW is the only Model/Wargaming Company that is floated on a stock exchange, and for such a small customer base, we have to support a relatively large Corporate footprint which is expensive all round.



GW Share price has been a steadily rising. Think about the cost of the GW Rhino model, think of the cost of the mould then think how many they have sold, the Rhino is one of the top Cash cows.
The cost of Digital Editions despite the low overheads of such items, is another example of rampant profit margins. There will be a definite cut-off, the price rises cannot increase indefinitely, the company does not need the price Increases, it's profits are exceptionally health especially in such a financially unstable world.

But if you are wondering where all the money goes? It isn't into Models or GW itself anymore, it's into the pockets of the Investors.

Directors Deals for Games Workshop (GAW)
Trade Date Action Notifier Price Currency Amount Holding
15-Aug-12 Buy Dividends Mark Wells 633 GBX 1,255 137985
9-Aug-12 Buy Tom Kirby 616 GBX 8,000 2131394
29-Jun-12 Buy Dividends Kevin Rountree 575 GBX 169 6315
25-Apr-12 Sell Mark Wells 570 GBX 1,982 136730
25-Apr-12 Buy Mark Wells 569.94 GBX 4,490 136730
23-Mar-12 Buy Tom Kirby 534.57 GBX 185,000 2123394
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Mark Wells 191.2 GBX 5,020 134222
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Kevin Rountree 191.2 GBX 5,020 6146
27-Oct-11 Buy Mark Wells 420 GBX 3,616 129202
14-Apr-11 Buy Mark Wells 430 GBX 7,051 125586
21-Sep-09 Buy Mark Wells 305 GBX 5,510 112589

So Tom Kirby owns 2131394 x £6.47 = £13.790119.18 so a nice £13 Million Pounds give or take.... Does that influence his business decisions? The fact he is about to retire? The fact that much of the money from the Dividend payout in 2011 could have been used to re-invest and cover all of the serious flaws in the games (lack of Codexes for certain factions for 2 editions) the drought of good specialist games.

I'm not anti-capitalist, far from it, but not all companies should float on the stock exchange and considering that GW is now in the FTSE 250, well we will all be milked for every penny.

The only way to make this hobby cheaper now is to Buy shares in the Company, and hope they pay second large Dividend soon.

Of the £21 you are paying for 5 Finecast Sword master of Hoeth a good percentage is going in Tom Kirby's Pocket.

@Navarro: i'm sorry man, i respect your work, but saying tabletop wargaming is the "people's game" is a joke...
the people's game is checkers, or maybe chess...
tabletop wargaming is for people with money, not people who live in real poverty...
here in the Third World, in any place you go, you will always find people playing checkers with bottle tops, and a hand drawn board...
starting price: $0
you use what you find on the ground...
THAT'S how poor people live...
poor people buy a kilo of rice, a kilo of beans, a kilo of potatoes, and a kilo of flour with their $35 dollars and feed their family for a couple of weeks...
they don't go out and buy a box of tactical marines, and then cry online about how they used to get 30 Beakies for $20 back in 1989...

cheers
jah

 mwnciboo wrote:
I always have a problem with the attitude of "If you don't like it, buy something else" or "the hobby is expensive get over yourself". Well I have to say no, on both counts because this acceptance of what is going on is akin to being an easily led sheep.

I would disagree.

There are three options:
1. Decide that the prices are worth it for the entertainment value it brings and keep buying.
2. Decide that it's too expensive and stop buying.
3. Decide that it's too expensive, whine about it online but keep buying anyway.

Option 3 is being a sheep.

Option 3, Passive Aggressive sheep but i'll give you that.

In the end, GW will use the prices they can get away with, that people reward them for. I see enough people at my club in Leeds who immediately charge down the store to pay for the latest new hot thing, that I can quite believe their strategy works. Even if those same people were earlier carping about how ridiculous the prices are. GW will change their prices when people stop buying their stuff, not before.

One thing I don't quite get is the "model quality" argument, because typical games of Warhammer Fantasy often involve slapping 1-200+ figures on the table, (most of them heavily obscured behind the front rank of a unit), and then 50 of them get taken off in the first couple of turns. Plus, the quantity of models means a lot of them will be in uniform unpainted or undercoat, where you can't really make out the quality of the model anyway. For a game like Malifaux, say, I care more about sculpt quality, because the lower count means each one will be getting more attention on the table.

I've been thinking about seeing if I can get back into WHF without actually supporting GW's pricing, both for selfish economical reasons and on the principle of not rewarding them for bad pricing. I think it's quite doable these days.

 Elemental wrote:
One thing I don't quite get is the "model quality" argument, because typical games of Warhammer Fantasy often involve slapping 1-200+ figures on the table, (most of them heavily obscured behind the front rank of a unit), and then 50 of them get taken off in the first couple of turns. Plus, the quantity of models means a lot of them will be in uniform unpainted or undercoat, where you can't really make out the quality of the model anyway..

I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.

In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

nkelsch wrote:
And all I see is a bunch of bland, boring generic sculpts costing 1-2$ less than GW and PP, and then I see deeply flawed sculpts from mantic costing much much less. Then I see amazing models from AoW costing 1-2$ more than GW and PP.

Not $1-2 less. $4 or more. Remember when I pointed out the average GW infantry costs $15 or more (and the ones priced at $10 are small goblins)?

Everyone's minis cost about the same. And telling people who mostly play fantasy and 40k and telling them to buy cheaper historical and Appleseed (whatever that is) models doesn't help. That is like telling someone who is trying to buy a 2000$ bike that it is too expensive and they should buy a 1000$ riding lawnmower because they are both forms of transportation even though the person has no grass to mow and they explicitly want to ride a bike.

Historical, really?

Again, missed the point (and a very inappropriate analogy).

Fact: they are cheaper.

Fact: they are also of good quality. You may not like them subjectively but that doesn't change the fact that they're quality models.

To fit your motorcycle analogy, you can buy your $2000 bike if that's what you fancy, but it doesn't change the fact that there's another motorcycle of a different brand, which is on par in regards to quality, and they are offering $400 less. No one is forcing anyone to buy a motorcycle they don't want (maybe you don't like the other brand aesthetically), but it still remains that the other brand is on par in quality, and also cheaper.

A more apt comparison would be buying a Mac versus a PC. Having both of the same specs, the PC would be cheaper to build. Now, you may like the Mac subjectively (you like its design, you're more familiar with the OS itself) but performance-wise, the PC is the Mac's equal.

 Pacific wrote:


Well, I suppose the point would be that many of us remember when this was not the case. GW paints itself as the only way in the miniature wargaming hobby, while at the same time pricing out a pretty high percentage of kids who will therefore never get to try or experience it.

Sure there are other wargames out there, but in the UK at least the FLGS is only just starting to make it's presence known again. The chances are a lot of kids will go into a GW store, have a really fun intro game, tug at their parents shirt sleeve in eager hope and then be told "you must be joking" after they have totalled up the costs.

That to me, and I don't care what else you say, makes me rather sad about the whole situation. And ultimately in terms of the wider industry there will be less fresh blood coming into it, which is good for absolutely no-one.

But you could apply that to any hobby. You take your kid for a horse riding lesson, he/she loves it anwants a horse....sad that we all can't afford a stable and paddock. What about Go-Karting, great for a one off, try doing it regularly! Hey, how about Radio Controlled cars.....

I think you have hit the nail on the head when you say there are alternatives, and I think when the child tugs at Mummy or Daddys shirt sleeve, it's then that the parents have to explore and expound those alternatives. We all know it doesn't have to be a simple NO, play football instead, it can be NO, but have you seem Warmachine, Infinity, DUST, Kings of War, etc etc.....Google is the friend of the shirt sleeve tugged parent.....if they give a rats ass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Navarro: i'm sorry man, i respect your work, but saying tabletop wargaming is the "people's game" is a joke...
the people's game is checkers, or maybe chess...
tabletop wargaming is for people with money, not people who live in real poverty...
here in the Third World, in any place you go, you will always find people playing checkers with bottle tops, and a hand drawn board...
starting price: $0
you use what you find on the ground...
THAT'S how poor people live...
poor people buy a kilo of rice, a kilo of beans, a kilo of potatoes, and a kilo of flour with their $35 dollars and feed their family for a couple of weeks...
they don't go out and buy a box of tactical marines, and then cry online about how they used to get 30 Beakies for $20 back in 1989...

cheers
jah

Man, I would offer you a real handshake if you were anywhere near me! and buy you a beer!!

This post says it all. I really don't understand "dreamers" like NAVARRO who want to talk about a game for the masses when the bloody retail price printed on the box says clearly "For Them With Monies"......is it really that hard to understand?

And what does it have to do with actual quality, whether artistic or manufacturing? Does NAVARRO really think that GW o any other company is going to individually price accoring to how well the sculpt is percieved by the "masses" or how well the end product came off the production line? He must have hit his head tying his shoe laces.

A premium product is usually defined as such based on it's price in relation to it's peers in the same market place, price per item or price per volume.

GW "sells" a premium product, regardless of what people think about it, hence the price GW feels it can charge. And as such comparig it to other premium hobbies is justified!

Here is my view on the whole subject of pricing for table top games:

1) While GW does have higher quality in some areas, they are crap in others. I don't feel that I get better quality from GW and have actually seen more consistent quality from PP. GW quality is not better or worse than any other model manufacture. Item value remains the same.

2) Plastic is cheaper than metal to manufacture. Plastic also feels cheaper with less mass, meaning my perceived value is less. This means I should see a price decrease, not increase. Lowers item value.

3) All table top miniatures require hours of work by the player in order to have the model ready to play with. This means that the gratification is not instant. MtG, video games and many other hobbies have instant gratification, where miniatures require more input before you can use them. Lowers item value.

4) My biggest issue, the bare minimum to play the game is not competitive in most cases. The special and heavy weapons which come in the base box are not what people tend to play with for GW games. IG, CSM and SM are the biggest offender. Want a IG plasma gunner, shell out another $15 for the model. Want CSM terminators with 2x lightning claw, shell out another $10 per model for the bits because they only come with the lord model. At least the PP games come with, though static, items to play the unit out of the box. IG squad ($29), alternate heavy weapon ($15) and alternate special weapon (39.50) for a total of $57.17 (1 of 3 heavy weapons used). SM is just as bad with it being $51.25 if you want any other heavy weapon than a missile launcher. Now I do realize that there are extra models, but even normalizing for that, it is still $40.97 and $47.53 per squad.

5) Tournament points is the best benchmark as that is what is "the powers that be" have decided where the game is to be played. GW not supporting tournaments is a red herring and irrelevant to the argument. Combined with the above, the per army cost is much more for Fantasy and 40K.

Each person must determine what they see as good value.

Barfolomew wrote:


2) Plastic is cheaper than metal to manufacture. Plastic also feels cheaper with less mass, meaning my perceived value is less. This means I should see a price decrease, not increase. Lowers item value.

Depends. When you say "manufacture", I assume you mean use as a miniature material rather than extraction and refining of the raw material. Piece price, plastic maybe cheaper than metal, but manufacturing costs are higher, as the tooling for plastics is generally more expeniseve (prohibitively so in some case) than tooling for "metal" miniatures. Which is why you see most of the smaller miniatures companies producing in metal or now, resin "types".

The design of miniatures to be made in metal is much flexible (due to manufacturing methods) than designing miniatures in plastics (for example you have to be aware of "under-cuts"), so this makes getting the miniature to look better than your average "toy soldier" a much bigger head-ache in plastics.

While "metal" as a raw material is cheaper than plastics, on average, you have to bear in mind that plastics are tied into the costs of oil, as oil is a key component in plastics manufacture. For how much longer plastic will be cheaper than metal is open to debate.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Navarro: i'm sorry man, i respect your work, but saying tabletop wargaming is the "people's game" is a joke...
the people's game is checkers, or maybe chess...
tabletop wargaming is for people with money, not people who live in real poverty...
here in the Third World, in any place you go, you will always find people playing checkers with bottle tops, and a hand drawn board...
starting price: $0
you use what you find on the ground...
THAT'S how poor people live...
poor people buy a kilo of rice, a kilo of beans, a kilo of potatoes, and a kilo of flour with their $35 dollars and feed their family for a couple of weeks...
they don't go out and buy a box of tactical marines, and then cry online about how they used to get 30 Beakies for $20 back in 1989...

cheers
jah

Oh well just snap for the hyperbole mate!
How poor people live.... I actually said: " Its a peoples game and anyone who has time and money to think on hobbies ( many unfortunatly are on the limiar of poverty) can have fun with this."

I know people on the limiar of poverty have more important issues to handle than freaking hobbies like wargamming... But there are free wargames outhere... actually chess/chekkers is a form of wargame meets boardgame and as you say its free????... You can play wargames with paper, stones, bottle tops... I HAVE in my youth! What you could argument is that unlike chekkers some of these games are not popular and very obscure if no one introduces it to you, but that is another discussion...
My country is far from ritch and in my youth we did not need money and we still played all kinds of games... I will ask you this isnt there a deck of cards around? Stones? sand? wood? chalk? If there are chekkers and chess there you already have tokens for games! Man the brainwave that GW is the definition of wargamming is burned in the flesh of some of you in such a strange way that you seem to ignore that wargamming itself has many forms and some of those cost you nothing.

Now to the nonsense side of things:
As for delephont and the dreamer jabs lol man watever! The way you argument these days makes little sense.
Retail price on stones sticks and sand? Believe me wargames are some of the oldest forms of entertainment and if someone with no money wants to, he will find a way and play it. Surelly not GW kits or 40k minis thats not only ridiculous but thats also just one small slice of what composes wargames. I know I know outside GW there's a desert in your opinion.
As for the premium discussion man... are you trying to be funny? Good for you.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Now to the nonsense side of things:
As for delephont and the dreamer jabs lol man watever! The way you argument these days makes little sense.
Retail price on stones sticks and sand? Believe me wargames are some of the oldest forms of entertainment and if someone with no money wants to, he will find a way and play it. Surelly not GW kits or 40k minis thats not only ridiculous but thats also just one small slice of what composes wargames. I know I know outside GW there's a desert in your opinion.
As for the premium discussion man... are you trying to be funny? Good for you.

The only one spouting nonsense is you. Have a think about it, is anyone saying that "wargaming" in all it's forms is beyond the reach of the average man? We're talking about the price of GW products....dude, get with the show, or get out.

Idiot, of course you can go play a game of soldiers with paper cut-outs or even bits of branch (if you live near a forest) is that what the OP is talking about? Does that box of minis he has on the first page of this thread look like bottle tops or stones to you? The only reason peoples comments seem like nonsense to you is because either you can't or you refuse to read the thread and get to grips with the discussion points.

And for your information, I'm well aware of the sea of products outside of GW, but again, because I can stay on point with the discussion (a skill you seem to lack) I don't have to harp on about them everytime I post.

In all fairness to you, English isn't your mother tongue, I wouldn't have a hope of holding a conversation in your language, and wouldn't try. However, if your command of the language is preventing you from fully understanding the conversation, you might want to think twice before labelling other peoples comments as "nonsense".

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.

In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

And I don't agree that the GW sculpts necessarily correspond with being the "best". Some are good, some are okay, some are dreadful. Same sort of quality range as most other companies, really. I know this is very personal, but I don't see the huge jump in quality in, say GW zombies compared to Mantic zombies that would justify the rather big price jump.

 Delephont wrote:

The only one spouting nonsense is you. Have a think about it, is anyone saying that "wargaming" in all it's forms is beyond the reach of the average man? We're talking about the price of GW products....dude, get with the show, or get out.
".

We are talking about "omg Prices" and making comparisons with other wargaming companies and options so to a degree we are talking about wargaming prices... as for getting out... sorry dear delephont not only thats kind of unpolite but again you make little sense... I could explain why you have zero authority to invite anyone here to get out, but its offtopic and I believe it would bring nothing to anyone.

Sorry if it annoys you but I have to ignore your invitation and I will keep on expressing my opinion regardless of your animosity... its your problem really, deal with it... or not.

GW has a couple of models I find are priced a bit high, Ork Battlewagon & Land Raider, but generally I find GW prices pretty reasonable in the realm of wargaming.

@Navarro: the majority of the world's population is poor...
i'm sorry if i don't feel like the middle and upper classes represent "the people"...

as you said, GW's prices are were they are because they are trying to sell their product as a "Ferrari"...
that's their choice...
some products give me the Ferrari feeling, such as a box of Wolf Guard Termies, and i am happy to buy them (though i still look for a good deal, because bargain hunting means i can afford even more minis)...
other products do not give me he Ferrari feeling, such as Finecast, and don't get any of my money (better to give it to a company the does quality work, like Studio Mcvey)...

even more to the point, nobody is forced to buy GW products, so GW is not obligated to do the customer any favors...
they are a business, out to make a profit, not a community center out to benefit the people...
as you said, there are countless forms of wargames out there, and yet GW is still going strong...
people love the universes that have been created...
the cost to enter that universe is plainly marked on the package...
nobody is forced to step in the door...

personally, i don't play any tabletop games (i would rather be painting), but i buy the products of all the companies that catch my eye...
i buy all the books, and whatever minis i fancy, because i want the company to succeed...
i buy all these thing not because i need them, but because i want them...
hobbies are a luxury, plain and simple...

cheers
jah

 Elemental wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.
In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

And I don't agree that the GW sculpts necessarily correspond with being the "best". Some are good, some are okay, some are dreadful. Same sort of quality range as most other companies, really. I know this is very personal, but I don't see the huge jump in quality in, say GW zombies compared to Mantic zombies that would justify the rather big price jump.

Totally, WHFB is incredibly variable - some of the sculpts are really good, some are really dodgy.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
One thing I don't quite get is the "model quality" argument, because typical games of Warhammer Fantasy often involve slapping 1-200+ figures on the table, (most of them heavily obscured behind the front rank of a unit), and then 50 of them get taken off in the first couple of turns. Plus, the quantity of models means a lot of them will be in uniform unpainted or undercoat, where you can't really make out the quality of the model anyway..

I used to see that a lot in the days of horrible-monopose-plastics for WHFB, people would use metal models in the front rank and plastics for the rest.

In WHFB it definitely makes sense to use your favourite models for the front rank and the cheapest models you can find as filler.

I'm of the opinion that WFB ought to use, say 10 models, to represent a unit. There's really no reason for there to be a 1:1 model ratio in a game where the units can number 40 or more models. But then they'd be selling less minis so it wouldn't work for GW.

Let's be honest, it also wouldn't look as good.

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Navarro: the majority of the world's population is poor...
i'm sorry if i don't feel like the middle and upper classes represent "the people"...

as you said, GW's prices are were they are because they are trying to sell their product as a "Ferrari"...
that's their choice...
some products give me the Ferrari feeling, such as a box of Wolf Guard Termies, and i am happy to buy them (though i still look for a good deal, because bargain hunting means i can afford even more minis)...
other products do not give me he Ferrari feeling, such as Finecast, and don't get any of my money (better to give it to a company the does quality work, like Studio Mcvey)...

even more to the point, nobody is forced to buy GW products, so GW is not obligated to do the customer any favors...
they are a business, out to make a profit, not a community center out to benefit the people...
as you said, there are countless forms of wargames out there, and yet GW is still going strong...
people love the universes that have been created...
the cost to enter that universe is plainly marked on the package...
nobody is forced to step in the door...

personally, i don't play any tabletop games (i would rather be painting), but i buy the products of all the companies that catch my eye...
i buy all the books, and whatever minis i fancy, because i want the company to succeed...
i buy all these thing not because i need them, but because i want them...
hobbies are a luxury, plain and simple...

cheers
jah

True on most of your points and I do agree with many of them... Fair enough that if we think on the majority of the world population most indeed do live in total poverty.

As for the ferrari, well I have a box of the new plaguebearers and man they are some of the coolest kits around, so yes indeed its hit and miss kind of feeling.

One thing I could care less is the manufacturers "impositions" and I'm not only talking about GW here, some are really silly on that regards, the stance that " you have to buy only this brand to play this game" its a myth and yes the only ones that drink from that water are the ones that choose to. 15mm scifi markets are a good example on what I consider open and constructive market... many games have no minis, many mini manufacturers develop for their own games and also other companies games...there is the feeling all business do try to work together in creating a good community. That is very good for you as a customer because you can choose the most economic options. All ranges are supported in some degree.

You still have some interesting developments in 28mm like songs of blades and heroes that let you choose what minis you like, the scale you like etc its all good... Thats the way I believe its better for us customers.

Today If I really want to indulge myself with minis I can spend 15 quid and have a small warband for rpg or bloodbowl team or some 15mm's etc and play free wargames for years. ( thats IMO peanuts and far from a premium/ expensive activity)

Edit: If I wanted to play 40k in a gw tourney on a GW store then If they say jump and pay 400 quid for a army I have to... Thing is I dont think that is the most mature way to live in this hobby of ours and I set up my own hobby the way I want to. GW can say what they want about finecast being the best revolutionary thing to hit the wargaming world and price it how they wish to but that does not make GW products a premium.

As for the prices being all the same everywhere, well the last years we have seen some companies riding the wave of GW bloated prices but not all go that route some do even find ways to reduce their prices.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Edit: If I wanted to play 40k in a gw tourney on a GW store then If they say jump and pay 400 quid for a army I have to... Thing is I dont think that is the most mature way to live in this hobby of ours and I set up my own hobby the way I want to. GW can say what they want about finecast being the best revolutionary thing to hit the wargaming world and price it how they wish to but that does not make GW products a premium.

As for the prices being all the same everywhere, well the last years we have seen some companies riding the wave of GW bloated prices but not all go that route some do even find ways to reduce their prices.

Yeah, I totally agree with these points. People who insist on playing WH40K the GW way have to accept the GW ideal on wargaming and it's pricing. By walking down the GW path you automatically have to accept the products as "premium" products or how else do you justify paying those prices. I drive a crappy Ford, it get's me to work and back, and when I need to go shopping it's great for that to. I could do all of those things in an Aston Martin, but that would be my choice and it makes no sense for me to complain about the cost of Aston Martins compared to Ford's if that's how I chose to own cars.

For the mature (of mind) gamer, who is willing to invest time in creating their own gaming environment, there is a world of opportunity (yes, even sticks and stones if you insist) to game at a lower price, and I would say (IMHO) these are the people who deserve the title of "Hard-core gamer".....those who choose to wander down to the local GW because that is their gaming world, well, you're still a gamer, but you are an enslaved gamer, and you've sold your freedom to the GW Feds.

The start up costs for wargaming, is like opening a new business. The incline is huge and then it starts to lower. Once you have an army or two, you don't need to buy much else, a model or two. Unless GW troll you with a codex or FAQ that makes everything illegal >:O

 mwnciboo wrote:
I'm really pleased that everyone has stuck the issues without descending into a purile argument.

I always have a problem with the attitude of "If you don't like it, buy something else" or "the hobby is expensive get over yourself". Well I have to say no, on both counts because this acceptance of what is going on is akin to being an easily led sheep. GW has increased the prices year on year, regardless of financial circumstances, FINECAST has acted like a springboard for a further inflation busting price hike. My own take on this is that the current Executive Board and specifically Mr Kirby are lining their pockets handsomely. This is the fundamental problem of a Company that has generated such affection from it's fanbase, that when it goes Corporate, well the bottomline becomes Share price/investors and not the fanbase and to some degree not the products.

I believe GW is the only Model/Wargaming Company that is floated on a stock exchange, and for such a small customer base, we have to support a relatively large Corporate footprint which is expensive all round.

Spoiler:

GW Share price has been a steadily rising. Think about the cost of the GW Rhino model, think of the cost of the mould then think how many they have sold, the Rhino is one of the top Cash cows.
The cost of Digital Editions despite the low overheads of such items, is another example of rampant profit margins. There will be a definite cut-off, the price rises cannot increase indefinitely, the company does not need the price Increases, it's profits are exceptionally health especially in such a financially unstable world.

But if you are wondering where all the money goes? It isn't into Models or GW itself anymore, it's into the pockets of the Investors.

Directors Deals for Games Workshop (GAW)
Trade Date Action Notifier Price Currency Amount Holding
15-Aug-12 Buy Dividends Mark Wells 633 GBX 1,255 137985
9-Aug-12 Buy Tom Kirby 616 GBX 8,000 2131394
29-Jun-12 Buy Dividends Kevin Rountree 575 GBX 169 6315
25-Apr-12 Sell Mark Wells 570 GBX 1,982 136730
25-Apr-12 Buy Mark Wells 569.94 GBX 4,490 136730
23-Mar-12 Buy Tom Kirby 534.57 GBX 185,000 2123394
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Mark Wells 191.2 GBX 5,020 134222
1-Nov-11 Exercise of option Kevin Rountree 191.2 GBX 5,020 6146
27-Oct-11 Buy Mark Wells 420 GBX 3,616 129202
14-Apr-11 Buy Mark Wells 430 GBX 7,051 125586
21-Sep-09 Buy Mark Wells 305 GBX 5,510 112589

So Tom Kirby owns 2131394 x £6.47 = £13.790119.18 so a nice £13 Million Pounds give or take.... Does that influence his business decisions? The fact he is about to retire? The fact that much of the money from the Dividend payout in 2011 could have been used to re-invest and cover all of the serious flaws in the games (lack of Codexes for certain factions for 2 editions) the drought of good specialist games.

I'm not anti-capitalist, far from it, but not all companies should float on the stock exchange and considering that GW is now in the FTSE 250, well we will all be milked for every penny.

The only way to make this hobby cheaper now is to Buy shares in the Company, and hope they pay second large Dividend soon.

Of the £21 you are paying for 5 Finecast Sword master of Hoeth a good percentage is going in Tom Kirby's Pocket.

These threads always go round and round about whether or not the prices are justified. It's an impossible argument to resolve because each person is going to judge the relative worth of GW products from their own perspective. I'm firmly in the "too expensive, haven't bought any in years" camp, but at this point I find posts like the above which explain the "why" much more interesting than posts that that argue about the merits.

GW is in a financial position where the investors have little incentive to really invest more than they are into the workings of the company, and every incentive to keep on raising prices to pad their own pockets. They've taken so much out of GW it must be apparent to them that they can't keep doing what they are doing forever. Thus they have even more incentive to get as much out as they can before the whole thing collapses. Even that won't be the end for them because they will have gotten out far more than they put in, and it's likely that someone will sweep in to scoop up GW if only for it's IP.

Put simply, GW investors have an actual incentive to keep raising prices until they drive it into the ground!

Price raises are not going to change, so for anyone looking at getting into, or entering GW, take an eyes-wide-open look at what the yearly price raises have been. If you're willing to see that same raise every year that you play the game, then jump right in. If not, prepare to buy used, buy off-brand, or find another game.

Put simply, GW investors have an actual incentive to keep raising prices until they drive it into the ground!

I sort of agree with you but not in a manner on just what you are commenting about.

mwnciboo posted a chart on the price of GW stock. Looks rather good, except one small detail. How many shares are actually been traded on any given day. The information where I posted below comes from Yahoo fiance. For your basic information needs this is not bad for browsing. I did not post a url because it is going to change by the next secession and a new set of averages will be given for the next trading day. But you can find it yourself.

So what do we have for as an example for 8/28/2012. 15,710 shares traded for today.

Average for 3 months is 30,913 as of 8/28/2012.

Rather low is it not for a company that have millions of stock to be traded within a three month period. Don't you think? Besides I am so not used to these low amounts of stock trading from any company that calls themselves the "Worlds Largest" of anything.

I do have a stock portfolio albeit a small one. Over the years I sort got out of the legalize gambling known as the stock market and only kept those bell weather stocks that deal in durable goods.

Game Workshop is not one of the companies in my stock portfolio because on how I believe the company is being professionally ran, what kinds of investments that they are making, (the key here is R@D and PR) and to me the lack of a long term goal on just where the company needs to be heading.

You know, the corporation (if a healthy one) did not have to jack up(yes people on certain items it was over 20%. Been posted on this site as well as others) the prices that they did on all of their product before 6th ed came out. They did, which is another reason why I do not invest into GW. The loss of their customer base. Which ironically is what I believe is the reason for the price hike in the first place.

It's a viscous cycle. Raise the prices-- sell a bit less. So you raise the prices to make up for that and selll a bit less. I don't think GW can do anything other than continue to raise the prices 10%+ per year or start seeing revenue shrink.

If you play a GW game, expect units to continue to get repackaged into smaller model count sets if they come with more than 10 and prices to continue to be increased 10% or more every year. If you're a lifer you get to go through the year over year grind.

The lifers who see the compounding results of their year over year price increases are the minority. Most of GW's customers will just see one or two before moving onto other things (likely not even miniature related).

GW needs to keep increasing prices to combat shrinking unit sales. They should raise prices because the churn of their customer base means that people are going to quit anyway, so they may as well get the maximum they can from a new customer before they quit.

Then they can just issue dividends and bonuses and retire rich. There's simply no incentive for upper management to do anything differently.

Agreed, it's immensely sad really. The Shares historically have been a good investment, but it is interesting to see how the trade has been so small.

This is strange for 2 reasons; 1 they are considered the darlings of the Stockmarket bucking the market trend, 2, the fact they spent 2-3 years clearing their Debts and once cleared paid a fat dividend to investors and have since had good profits.

All we can hope for is that the company goes through a rough patch and has to be bought out or collapses, and someone can buy up the IP Rights.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Agreed, it's immensely sad really. The Shares historically have been a good investment, but it is interesting to see how the trade has been so small.

This is strange for 2 reasons; 1 they are considered the darlings of the Stockmarket bucking the market trend, 2, the fact they spent 2-3 years clearing their Debts and once cleared paid a fat dividend to investors and have since had good profits.

All we can hope for is that the company goes through a rough patch and has to be bought out or collapses, and someone can buy up the IP Rights.

Only problem is I could see some armies getting Squated if IP were to be bought out.

I hope they get even more aggressive with their price increases. They went from 7% a year up to 10%+ a year, so maybe they'll go to 15%+ a year with some times being 20%+.

Every time they increase prices, they give more and more of the miniature wargaming fantasy and sci-fi market to other companies (they already have no market share in the historical miniatures). More companies = more choices, more miniatures, more rules. Just more options.

So keep going GW. Do us proud.


.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I hope they get even more aggressive with their price increases. They went from 7% a year up to 10%+ a year, so maybe they'll go to 15%+ a year with some times being 20%+.

Every time they increase prices, they give more and more of the miniature wargaming fantasy and sci-fi market to other companies. More companies = more choices, more miniatures, more rules. Just more options.

So keep going GW. Do us proud.

Well I guess that would make me switch over to Mantic

Whether they increase their rate of increase or not, you should already be expecting compounding price increases of around 10% a year if you've decided to stick it out with GW for the long haul.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Agreed, it's immensely sad really. The Shares historically have been a good investment, but it is interesting to see how the trade has been so small.

This is strange for 2 reasons; 1 they are considered the darlings of the Stockmarket bucking the market trend, 2, the fact they spent 2-3 years clearing their Debts and once cleared paid a fat dividend to investors and have since had good profits.

All we can hope for is that the company goes through a rough patch and has to be bought out or collapses, and someone can buy up the IP Rights.

I don't see what's so sad? From and investors POV they are great; they hold value and grow sustainably over time. This is why the same half a dozen pension trusts have been holding stock there since the day dot and will continue to hold it especially while they are increasing dividends.

The City may not understand GWs activities but they like the balance sheet.

It's sad that a once interesting hobby, has been reduced to literally a money making scheme. Hence sad, it's lost it's soul, rather like the Orks who have become a generic race of nonsense when once we had quirky interesting clans etc.

Now, it forgets about the Game and the ideals that GW was founded, now it's about making people (e.g Investors) Rich. This changes the focus from the Consumer to the Investor, decisions are made by and for Investors (The Executive Board are all Investors), this means that business decisions fundamentally about themselves and their own investment, not about the good of the Hobby or being innovative, hence why I can imagine little inertia or opposition to inflation busting price hikes. The top wages of FTSE 250 Executives has risen massively.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/nov/22/pay

This comes back to the idea that Financial rules self regulate under supply and demand. The problem is once you make profits, you can start to redistribute that as you see fit and change your prices to pull in the maximum profit, especially in an industry where you are the only provider. GW has the monopoly on it's IP and anything pretty similiar gets closed down, but there are no real competitors of similar size to drive prices down. The old SAMUNG vs APPLE going on at the moment with SMART Phones, is a good example of competition and IP and Trademark fighting. GW got to the post 1st and no-one is even close to them as a Corporate entity. MANTIC, PP etc have a long way to go to get to the size of GW or even close.

There is zero, emotional attachment to say "Rio Tinto" the Mining Giant, or "BARCLAYS" Bank so I invest in them looking purely at a Balance sheet for resources needed (e.g Metal / Mineral mining or Commercial banking) there is no emotional attachment to a piece of mineral. Globally Minerals and banking are fundamental to Commerce/ Industry and world Trade. GW is frivalous by it's nature. We don't actually need it, we do it to get rid of excess income and enjoy ourselves, there aren't many Stock Exchange Companies like GW on the FTSE 250. The closest I can come up with is Weatherspoons chain, which you could argue is Frivalous too. It's not even a service sector, it is a specialist form of Retail.

To me it seems you object to the scale of GW.

I mean surely all games companies we're set up to put food on the table out of something the owners like to do. GW put more food on more tables.

I don't object to this or the fact that Tom Kirby has made himself allot of money from managing and floating GW. He took the risks in the buy out and should therefore reap the reward.

I don't suppose we would be having a whip round if he had fallen on his arse.

GW models are expensive because of the retail chain. GW is the size it is because of the retail chain. They can not replace the later to help the former without significantly reducing their market presence (vital for more custom) and turnover.

So for this reason and others I can understand why GW charge as they do.

I actually have more of an issue with other companies that charge similar prices.

 notprop wrote:
To me it seems you object to the scale of GW.

I think this is really the heart of the issue, and what Mace Windoo alluded to in his previous post. There is a time that (a lot of us) remember when you had the feeling that GW was a games company first, a business to make money second.

I think that everyone can accept that in becoming public GW would become responsible to its shareholders, and like you say of course this is just the way things are, but I guess there is something of a 'line in the sand', about how far you can go to satisfy profitability, while at the same time not damaging the core mandate of what the company should be about. With some of the issues to arise recently, such as the Finecast quality controls, one might discern that the scales have tipped too far in that direction. In that particular case, I've read several educated commentaries on those quality issues, and that they could easily have been circumvented with a higher grade resin, and the use of pressure casting rather than spin (or if the latter was used, only on moulds that were designed with that in mind). But, this wasn't done, and at the same time a massive share dividend payout is made. I suppose whether you see this is 'acceptable' behaviour or not, when it comes down to it the customer is worse off, and I don't think un-entitled to have a bit of a whinge!

So, I don't think criticism of GW in this regard is unreasonable. The growth into a large, transnational corporation is a bit of a two-edged sword. The benefits have been many, and the wargaming industry has never seen the like of a standardised system purchasable in so many different countries, which has also helped to improve the growth of the industry as a whole. But, the downsides are also there, and are easily visible for those who have followed the company for a long time, especially when the relationship between customer and company has been so close. I think that is perhaps why so many people can get vitriolic about it - the transformation of GW has not been easily conscionable.

Since the picture in the opening post is blocked by filter, may I ask what is it? Finecast DE Incubi or smth? I decided to buy a small Eldar allied detachment recently and was shocked to see that Farseer is being sold together with warlocks only for about similar price and five eldar rangers cost over 20 GBP. It all ended with me buying five metal OOP Eldar Rangers and Eldrad on e-bay for approximately 18 GBP in total.
Second-hand market FTW!

The picture is of High Elf Sword Masters of Hoeth.

There is 5 finecast mini's in the box

 Necro wrote:
The picture is of High Elf Sword Masters of Hoeth.

There is 5 finecast mini's in the box

And they are replicas of old OOP metal ones if I am not mistaken, whereas IoB Swordmasters are a beauty to watch. For the same price on e-bay I can get the whole IoB HE range with 5 reavers, mage, 10 Seaguards and 10!!! Swordmasters.

exactly, Cain...
there's the crux...

yes, this box of Swordmasters is pretty pointless...
5 identical, poorly cast soft resin, pieces for the same price as a bunch of really beautiful plastics...
this last year of Finecast has been like watching a slow trainwreck...

my problem is not with the price of this box, it is with its simple existence...
i wouldn't buy it for $10...
the plastics are just so much better, and we know resin can be done right...
i see the benefit of new technology being used to take plastic kits to a new high, and i feel like some of the money i spend on kits is going to a good cause: giving me better minis...
i see droopy, holey, Finecast minis and feel like someone is playing a bad joke...

my beef is not with pricing, it's with quality...
good quality is always worth its cost, in my experience...
i've had some really good deals on some really rubbish sculpts and felt buyers remorse, meanwhile i giggle like a kid at Christmas everytime i look at my large scale Forgeworld Marines, which cost a lot even when they were in production...
feels like money well spent...

maybe i'm a dreamer, but i hope that if enough people spend their money on plastics, and boycott Finecast, GW will be forced to change the formula and casting method to give us a product that feels like a fair deal, instead of a rip-off...
i love resin minis, even the expensive boutique ones, but i'm only throwing boutique money at boutique quality...

the new Dark Vengeance box seems to be a step in the right direction...
a limited edition plastic mini that will be cast right the first time, saving thousand of people the hassle of returns and runaround...
a load of highly detailed, push-fit, minis at a reasonable price, with a non-limited version for people who can't get in on the first run...
there are even a bunch of people who have been surprised by the "low" price...
surely, that's a first after this last year of strange descisions at HQ...
i know i will be happily clipping bits when my box arrives...

cheers
jah

 mwnciboo wrote:
It's sad that a once interesting hobby, has been reduced to literally a money making scheme. Hence sad, it's lost it's soul, rather like the Orks who have become a generic race of nonsense when once we had quirky interesting clans etc.

Now, it forgets about the Game and the ideals that GW was founded, now it's about making people (e.g Investors) Rich. This changes the focus from the Consumer to the Investor, decisions are made by and for Investors (The Executive Board are all Investors), this means that business decisions fundamentally about themselves and their own investment, not about the good of the Hobby or being innovative, hence why I can imagine little inertia or opposition to inflation busting price hikes. The top wages of FTSE 250 Executives has risen massively.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2011/nov/22/pay

This comes back to the idea that Financial rules self regulate under supply and demand. The problem is once you make profits, you can start to redistribute that as you see fit and change your prices to pull in the maximum profit, especially in an industry where you are the only provider. GW has the monopoly on it's IP and anything pretty similiar gets closed down, but there are no real competitors of similar size to drive prices down. The old SAMUNG vs APPLE going on at the moment with SMART Phones, is a good example of competition and IP and Trademark fighting. GW got to the post 1st and no-one is even close to them as a Corporate entity. MANTIC, PP etc have a long way to go to get to the size of GW or even close.

There is zero, emotional attachment to say "Rio Tinto" the Mining Giant, or "BARCLAYS" Bank so I invest in them looking purely at a Balance sheet for resources needed (e.g Metal / Mineral mining or Commercial banking) there is no emotional attachment to a piece of mineral. Globally Minerals and banking are fundamental to Commerce/ Industry and world Trade. GW is frivalous by it's nature. We don't actually need it, we do it to get rid of excess income and enjoy ourselves, there aren't many Stock Exchange Companies like GW on the FTSE 250. The closest I can come up with is Weatherspoons chain, which you could argue is Frivalous too. It's not even a service sector, it is a specialist form of Retail.

Well there is some attachment to Rio Tinto here, much of my family works of a subsidiary of theirs . But I do agree with what you are saying.

Nice to know my investments are supporting jobs on the far side of the globe.

Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

 kanekaneo wrote:
Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

The people who work there are hobbyists. If they didn't get a large discount, I think the mysterious dissapearance of stock would be much higher.

Here they are getting 20% off, but it is not official GW shop - just an independent retailer which sells 99% GW and remaining 1% consists of Warlord Games Bolt action WW2 miniatures and some Army Painter stuff.

It is 50% for staffers aye. Have to be some perks for putting up with us lot

 kanekaneo wrote:
Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

It's 50%, but it has been eroded to that from even better ones in past years. Gone are the days when staff could order stuff by weight from mail order (£30 per kilo IIRC), things like Crisis battlesuits costs about 80p each. The discounts were horrendous, then GW got rid of it when they got rid of their bits system. I remember a time at my local store with the key timers spending their entire wage packets on these orders due to the deep discounts they gave.

GW employees get 50% off. Just confirming from experience.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 kanekaneo wrote:
Does anyone know the discounts that GW employee's get.

I swear at mine the employee's get like 50% off. I don't know how many employee's there are, but that hefty discount is criminal. They are feeding their own hobbying needs, by making us pay for it. In addition to the huge amount of cash investors are raking in. :O

It's 50%, but it has been eroded to that from even better ones in past years. Gone are the days when staff could order stuff by weight from mail order (£30 per kilo IIRC), things like Crisis battlesuits costs about 80p each. The discounts were horrendous, then GW got rid of it when they got rid of their bits system. I remember a time at my local store with the key timers spending their entire wage packets on these orders due to the deep discounts they gave.

That's right, many years ago when I worked as a staffer we could buy by weight. I got some truly mental deals on all metal armies (2000pt Steel Legion army for less than £100 IIRC, and probably the bulk of an entire Eldar Craftworld for similar price).

I believe some time after I left they reduced the reduction on plastics to 50%, and now obviously metals/resin as well (the latter in particular is hilarious, as those things are produced for pennies). I guess it was pretty good at the time, although not unique in the world of retail - I worked in a clothing store with more than 80% for instance, but also somewhat better than the likes of HMV (who gave a really crap discount, again considering the tiny net cost of CD's/DVD's).

Back then you also had a lot of 'inheritance' of armies as well, of the likes of old display armies and the like, where they would find their way to a staff members home rather than going into the bin. I'm guessing as GW has grown over the last decade or more, things have undoubtedly changed and now GW runs a tighter ship - you seem to get a lot less 'characters', and without knowing for sure I would hazard a guess that its a lot less fun these days than it was a decade ago.

 Lotus wrote:
At least you aren't Tau. Finecast only Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds? Both of which are important. It sucks! Also, trying to find used metal ones here is a big PITA for me.

Convert Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines into them. Don't glue on the shoulder pad and cut the underslung grenade launcher off spare pulse carbines and glue them on the top of the Pulse carbine you're using. Voila, cheap(er) Pathfinders.

On topic, yes it's kinda silly. I'm just glad I got a full unit of Black Guard before their price went up £8 when they became Finecast.

RE: Share prices.

I don't believe looking at the share prices over time is really worth anything much for a few reasons:
1) The majority of people buying are executives within the company
2) There is very very little movement of stock at all - hardly any shares actually traded
3) GW isn't big enough or cool enough to get any real financial analysis done.

I think a good example is Groupon. Their revenue and profits have been going up very steadily but this last quarter people their share prices went down. Why? Their increases in revenue and profits came from non-core business lines, whilst their core business line (coupons) dropped in revenue. Sounds a little like GW to me.

Trasvi wrote:
RE: Share prices.

I don't believe looking at the share prices over time is really worth anything much for a few reasons:
1) The majority of people buying are executives within the company
2) There is very very little movement of stock at all - hardly any shares actually traded
3) GW isn't big enough or cool enough to get any real financial analysis done.

I think a good example is Groupon. Their revenue and profits have been going up very steadily but this last quarter people their share prices went down. Why? Their increases in revenue and profits came from non-core business lines, whilst their core business line (coupons) dropped in revenue. Sounds a little like GW to me.

Glad you picked that up. Again I will not purchase stock in this company as reasons I believe are 1 and 2 that you have posted.

Okay, next summer I want to work at the local Games Workshop store now.

 Lotus wrote:
At least you aren't Tau. Finecast only Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds? Both of which are important. It sucks! Also, trying to find used metal ones here is a big PITA for me.

Do it like a friend of me and use plastic Khorne Hounds with some greenstuff.

 SorataZ wrote:

 Lotus wrote:
At least you aren't Tau. Finecast only Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds? Both of which are important. It sucks! Also, trying to find used metal ones here is a big PITA for me.

Do it like a friend of me and use plastic Khorne Hounds with some greenstuff.

Also I think Hounds actually went down in price after being converted to finecast, considering that you now get 4 in a box as opposed to 2 metal ones.

Hi again.
JUST to be super clear about this.
NO-ONE objected to GW becoming a PLC back in 1992-93.

Right up untill 1997 GW plc was doing great,the game developers were developing a wide range of games for a wide range of gamers.
(Doubling turn over every 3 years!)

Then the influence of GW plc corperate started to impact game development.
They belived they could focus on the easy to please, and not lose the net amount of customers, as the fast turn over of new customers would sustain them.(An intitial slowing of growth was expected .)

In short they undervalued the actual impact of good rule sets and great gameplay on the 'word of mouth marketing' they relied on.
(Veteran gamers recruit and keep other gameris interested in the game if the rules are good .)

But before the downturn could realy be noticed.LoTR came along, and with a GOOD RULE SET, and MASSIVE MULTIMEDIA GLOBAL ADVERTISING.

And the GW plc corperate managment confused the decision to focus on short term ,(customers and sales,) with the impact of millions of £/$/e FREE advertising!

After the LoTR bubble burst.Mr Tom Kirby GW plc Chairman admitted they (the corperate managment ), had 'grown fat and lazy on the back of easy sucess of the LoTR'.(After declaring that GW plc was 'in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children.')

So the corperate managment admitted to being fat and lazy.

So what new intuitive and dynamic buisness practices have they established in the last few years?
Er, um, well , they reduced the effctivness of thier ONLY recruitment source.
(Moving B&M stores to lower traffic areas and reducing staffing levels.)
Sourced cheaper materials and products , but charge the same or more for them.

In short, the self serving short sighted decisions of the corpertate managment have lost massive chunk of the customer base , and forced up the retail price to compensate for falling sales volumes.

We dont object to GW being a PLC.
Just Mr Kirby and Wells taking the easiest path to personal wealth, at the detriment of the games they pretent to support.

(The great guys in the studio are just following orders...)

Are just following Orders? You are using the Nuremberg Defence? I digress.

Anyway you cannot stop a Company becoming a PLC, it's kind of difficult thing to address. It's almost a tenet of Capitalism, that when a company gets above a certain size it turns into a faceless corporate entity.

I wanna work at GW just for the 50% discount for a summer. Then quit MUAHAHAH

 mwnciboo wrote:
Are just following Orders? You are using the Nuremberg Defence? I digress.

Anyway you cannot stop a Company becoming a PLC, it's kind of difficult thing to address. It's almost a tenet of Capitalism, that when a company gets above a certain size it turns into a faceless corporate entity.

Explain Valve.

GW prices are ridiculous and the 'cooler' manufacturers have matched their prices accordingly, but you only need to look at historical manufacturers to see just how over priced GW's models actually are.

You don't have to pay their prices though, I buy the entirety of my GW stuff from ebay, usually at a significant discount (50%+) over RRP. I also have a reasonably sized lead mountain that I have amassed over the years, my newest project is an all infantry 2000 point Catachan army that I bought 15-20 years ago and am now in the process of repainting.

Palindrome wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
Are just following Orders? You are using the Nuremberg Defence? I digress.

Anyway you cannot stop a Company becoming a PLC, it's kind of difficult thing to address. It's almost a tenet of Capitalism, that when a company gets above a certain size it turns into a faceless corporate entity.

Explain Valve.

GW prices are ridiculous and the 'cooler' manufacturers have matched their prices accordingly, but you only need to look at historical manufacturers to see just how over priced GW's models actually are.

Look, I nearly shat bricks when I saw how much Bretonnian Grail Knights cost here in Australia. $125 for 5 models. Five cavalry sized models.

It's completely ridiculous. There is no force on this earth that could compel me to buy those models at that price.

However, comparing them to historical manufacturers is kinda like "you only need to look at green plastic army men to see how over-priced GW is".

 Kaldor wrote:

However, comparing them to historical manufacturers is kinda like "you only need to look at green plastic army men to see how over-priced GW is".

Really? Compared to for example the Perrys, Victrix or Warlord Games GW kits are nothing special and GW vehicle kits are simply sub par. A lot of historicals manufactuers are of quite low quality but that doesn't mean that they all are.

Indeed, I just got 40 Perry War of the Roses men at arms for £18. 40! Choice of bills / halberds / bows etc, command models included... superb sculpts....

Palindrome wrote:
Explain Valve.

Well to me personally it's got to be an indepth Cost Benefit analysis, Value is a Compromise of Satisfactory Quality, Satisfactory Quantity, utility and Satisfactory Price.

Quality; is it good enough for my purposes? Is it too detailed and over the top for my purposes? Does it fulfil the role well despite being low quality? Does it need to be high Quality?

Quantity; How many do I need? What is the cost per unit? Total cost of requirements versus the number of items needed to meet that requirement? How many items per pack?

Utility; Do i need this? Is it disposable/ one use? Does it have multiple uses? Can I use this item for other things?

Price; Can I afford it? Does it meet the requirements to a satisfactory level and therefore justify the price? Is the Price inline with my assessment of the items Abilites? Is it a reasonable price given a Profit margin? Will I benefit from this purchase?

Applying my Logic to the Recent Drop Zone Commander release.

Quality :- Excellent
Quantity :- Boxed sets, with addon packs reduces need to buy everything separately.
Utility:- Not sure there is any Cross-over with other systems/ lines. Also incompatible with my 28mm and 15mm Terrain
Price :- Expensive but the premium you pay for Quality Miniatures.

Overall my personal take on this. Nice but I won't buy it and not entirely because of price. The fact that it is 10mm means my 28mm and 15mm Terrain looks silly, so I would have to re-invest in terrain, e.g another Scale of system, which really drags down the Utility side.

If this was 15mm I would probably have bought a small Skirmish force, as it would fit in with my FOW and Force on Force terrain and models.

Value is difficult to quantify but that is my almost subconcious thought process.

 mwnciboo wrote:

Palindrome wrote:
Explain Valve.

Well to me personally it's got to be an indepth Cost Benefit analysis, Value is a Compromise of Satisfactory Quality, Satisfactory Quantity, utility and Satisfactory Price.

Quality; is it good enough for my purposes? Is it too detailed and over the top for my purposes? Does it fulfil the role well despite being low quality? Does it need to be high Quality?

Quantity; How many do I need? What is the cost per unit? Total cost of requirements versus the number of items needed to meet that requirement? How many items per pack?

Utility; Do i need this? Is it disposable/ one use? Does it have multiple uses? Can I use this item for other things?

Price; Can I afford it? Does it meet the requirements to a satisfactory level and therefore justify the price? Is the Price inline with my assessment of the items Abilites? Is it a reasonable price given a Profit margin? Will I benefit from this purchase?

Applying my Logic to the Recent Drop Zone Commander release.

Quality :- Excellent
Quantity :- Boxed sets, with addon packs reduces need to buy everything separately.
Utility:- Not sure there is any Cross-over with other systems/ lines. Also incompatible with my 28mm and 15mm Terrain
Price :- Expensive but the premium you pay for Quality Miniatures.

Overall my personal take on this. Nice but I won't buy it and not entirely because of price. The fact that it is 10mm means my 28mm and 15mm Terrain looks silly, so I would have to re-invest in terrain, e.g another Scale of system, which really drags down the Utility side.

If this was 15mm I would probably have bought a small Skirmish force, as it would fit in with my FOW and Force on Force terrain and models.

Value is difficult to quantify but that is my almost subconcious thought process.

Well, that's nice. But I'm pretty sure he was asking about ValVe. The online gaming company.

Sorry complete missed the v... LOL

That said, your point on Valve makes no sense to me, can you explain it.

Kinda long explanation, but basically Valve is like a cat: loyal, friendly and the internet loves him.

 heartserenade wrote:
Kinda long explanation, but basically Valve is like a cat: loyal, friendly and the internet loves him.

Spoiler:

That is true until Half Life 3 is mentioned.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Sorry complete missed the v... LOL

That said, your point on Valve makes no sense to me, can you explain it.

Valve is gigantic, The last I heard it is valued at $2.5 billion (and is probably quite a lot more now) yet it is privately owned and I very much doubt it will ever be Valve PLC. It is also one of the most trusted names in gaming, in terms of big names it is the most trusted.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Kinda long explanation, but basically Valve is like a cat: loyal, friendly and the internet loves him.

Spoiler:

That is true until Half Life 3 is mentioned.

Not being much of a computer gamer, I don't get half of those, but I'm still fairly sure CCP would be "Utter bastard with whom you're obliged to associate.".

 heartserenade wrote:
Kinda long explanation, but basically Valve is like a cat: loyal, friendly and the internet loves him.

Spoiler:

I don't get most of these descriptions. Perhaps there is some nuance I'm not following?

BTW, CATS are NOT loyal and only friendly when they want something.

 mwnciboo wrote:

Anyway you cannot stop a Company becoming a PLC, it's kind of difficult thing to address. It's almost a tenet of Capitalism, that when a company gets above a certain size it turns into a faceless corporate entity.

VALVE CORPORATION, so it's already 50% of the way there, all it needs to do now is become a PLC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/technology/valve-a-video-game-maker-with-few-rules.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all

So Mr Newell hasn't need to get outside investment yet...No Company this size will survive being Private for that long. Give it time.

The microsoft one was because they're always asking you to pay for content (ala a foreign friend not understanding some practices of paying for their own stuff/not having the local currency), and the red ring around his junk is the whole, stereotype that foreigners aren't as "conservative" on the whole sex thing (from a US standpoint) as well as the red ring of death...

Actually most of those aren't computer gaming related at all, they're console based (with the exception of Valve and blizzard). Though EA and Microsoft do put out both versions...

Anyone want a finecast unicorn for $16.50?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1710046a

That's the old "pissed off elvish pony" with a horn on it. Unicorns are supposed to be magistic and noble looking. This ain't either.

Why the hate for sony games, I have found Sony produced games (e.g. uncharted) are quite good, and being a ps3 owner, bethesda is more like that friend who completely ignores you for his girlfriend (xbox).


Currently starting to look at BFG, and I have to say I think my wallets in love, fairly cheap to start a fleet.

 mwnciboo wrote:

So Mr Newell hasn't need to get outside investment yet...No Company this size will survive being Private for that long. Give it time.

Given how profitable Steam is I very much doubt that Valve will need outside investment, they are already self funding branching out into hardware (including a 'VR' headset and a rumoured new console). I would be utterly amazed if Valve ever becomes a PLC, In fact Gabe Newel has stated that he would rather that the company was broken up.

It is not inevitable that a company will become a PLC, even giant ones.

I just went on GW's website to look up stuff I wanted to get from a discounted 'order-by-phone' retailer.

(prices in USD)

Baneblades for $185

Razerwire fore $20 instead of $10 2 weeks ago

Leman Russ for $83

SM battleforce for $180

Skyshield for $70

Paints are now $6

When did this happen? I swear I just got my order form only last week. If this isn't a joke I don't know how I can keep playing. Airsoft and PC gaming being my other hobbies are already cheaper. I don't even have a 2000pt army yet.

Are you on the Austrailian site perchance?

 notprop wrote:
Are you on the Austrailian site perchance?

I think that happens at least once every price complaint thread.

Oh gak. Yeah good call. I was wondering why the help line number looked funky.

Now the real question is who got on my computer and played this sick prank on me.

Yeah if you went into a Coma in 2006 and awoke now, you would be so shocked by the GW price hike you would end up back in a Coma.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Yeah if you went into a Coma in 2006 and awoke now, you would be so shocked by the GW price hike you would end up back in a Coma.

Then you'd get stuck in a cycle of going into a coma every time you wake up from your last coma until you inevitably die.

That would suck.

I sense a new meme coming on....

 Kaldor wrote:

However, comparing them to historical manufacturers is kinda like "you only need to look at green plastic army men to see how over-priced GW is".

Please explain what you mean by this.
There are historical miniatures companies putting out figures and vehicles, in metal and plastic that are as well sculpted as GW at a fraction of the price (Perry, etc). Historical miniatures are a great reminder that you can produce high quality plastic and metal kits and they don't have to cost $3(plastic) to $20(metal, finecast) each.

Of course there are also those that are not as nice as GW, but there are also alot of sub-par sci-fi miniatures as well. Still, equating any of these to "plastic army men" is just not correct.

Yeah, historicals are awesome. Probably the best thing is that many of sculptors don't try to do GW's cartoony style so you can get some great sculpts with actual human proportions.

Another good thing about them is that the rules makers and miniature makers can't make products that don't stand on their own. The miniatures have to be good enough (and offer a good value for the money) and the rules have to be good games. This is because no one can copyright historical eras and if a rule set is bad or a miniature range is too expensive, you can just pick and choose which rules and which miniatures from different manufacturers. Everything has to stand on its own merit in terms of sculpting, value and game design.

As for miniature quality, take this example:


Lots of detail? Yep. It's also less than an inch long.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mwnciboo wrote:

So Mr Newell hasn't need to get outside investment yet...No Company this size will survive being Private for that long. Give it time.

You do know that the current trend in finance is to take public companies private right? Private equity is on the rise right now, not going public if you don't have to.

Really? Wish facebook listened to that trend lol... I hear they're bleeding money.

Who has the capital to go Private from PLC (by PLC I am talking LISTED and TRADED not a minimum £50k share PLC) ? Last I checked no one was particularly loaded with excess cash in the current climate. If you mean Private Companies are less likely to go PLC during a Recession, I will give you that. But once you are a PLC the sheer amount of money to buy back shares, or get a Billionaire to buy it all back is like waiting to see a unicorn.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Who has the capital to go Private from PLC? Last I checked no one was particularly loaded with excess cash in the current climate. If you mean Private Companies are less likely to go PLC during a Recession, I will give you that. But once you are a PLC the sheer amount of money to buy back shares, or get a Billionaire to buy it all back is like waiting to see a unicorn.

Bruce Wayne.

 mwnciboo wrote:
Who has the capital to go Private from PLC (by PLC I am talking LISTED and TRADED not a minimum £50k share PLC) ? Last I checked no one was particularly loaded with excess cash in the current climate. If you mean Private Companies are less likely to go PLC during a Recession, I will give you that. But once you are a PLC the sheer amount of money to buy back shares, or get a Billionaire to buy it all back is like waiting to see a unicorn.

Right now there are private equity funds waiting for opportunities to buy out publicly traded companies. Recessions are the perfect time to do it as revenue and share prices can get temporarily suppressed.

Private equity as a portion of capitalization is on the rise worldwide. Has been for the last decade, even from 2008 to now.

I don't know what this has to do with the topic at hand though. I guess it's more about wanting to be right on the internet or something.

 frozenwastes wrote:

Another good thing about them is that the rules makers and miniature makers can't make products that don't stand on their own. The miniatures have to be good enough (and offer a good value for the money) and the rules have to be good games. This is because no one can copyright historical eras and if a rule set is bad or a miniature range is too expensive, you can just pick and choose which rules and which miniatures from different manufacturers. Everything has to stand on its own merit in terms of sculpting, value and game design.

As for miniature quality, take this example:

Spoiler:

Lots of detail? Yep. It's also less than an inch long.

That's an excellent example. Good point also about the way competition works in the historical market based largely on quality. Some companies do try to set themselves apart by making miniatures that vary a bit in scale (chasing scale creep) or by being more or less "heroic" (see the proportions of TAG vs Perry). However, by and large, the subject matter is set, and the two main ways to compete are to either make a better sculpt of an historical subject, or to make a more affordable plastic version or both. Except for very obscure eras where it can be hard to make a profit or find enough buyers, historical makers can't just say "Only we make this unit, you have to buy from us".

All of which unfortunately does nothing for me as I only play Sci-Fi and Fantasy games. If I decided to make a fantasy human army though....

 frozenwastes wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:
Who has the capital to go Private from PLC (by PLC I am talking LISTED and TRADED not a minimum £50k share PLC) ? Last I checked no one was particularly loaded with excess cash in the current climate. If you mean Private Companies are less likely to go PLC during a Recession, I will give you that. But once you are a PLC the sheer amount of money to buy back shares, or get a Billionaire to buy it all back is like waiting to see a unicorn.

Right now there are private equity funds waiting for opportunities to buy out publicly traded companies. Recessions are the perfect time to do it as revenue and share prices can get temporarily suppressed.

Private equity as a portion of capitalization is on the rise worldwide. Has been for the last decade, even from 2008 to now.

I don't know what this has to do with the topic at hand though. I guess it's more about wanting to be right on the internet or something.

It resulted from my disappointment that almost all Businesses, once they become PLC become much more Corporate and more Share Holder/ Investor focused, than Consumer focus. However I am not above admitting that I was wrong, I have read up some of the stuff you've posted and you are quite right private equity funds are doing this, mea culpa.

 mwnciboo wrote:

It resulted from my disappointment that almost all Businesses, once they become PLC become much more Corporate and more Share Holder/ Investor focused, than Consumer focus. However I am not above admitting that I was wrong, I have read up some of the stuff you've posted and you are quite right private equity funds are doing this, mea culpa.

Well you're right about your overall point. Whether it's private equity or a PLC, it's about the money. Management often loves going public as it means they get to line their pockets while the share holders take the risk.

When something is big enough to either be public or be a large private company, it's very rare for things to still be about the customer.

 Harriticus wrote:
Anyone want a finecast unicorn for $16.50?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1710046a

Hey, don't I recognise that goat-pony thing from twenty years ago?

http://www.solegends.com/marauder/mm83elfmageunicorn.htm

Why yes I do...

actually, English Assassin, i have that old Marauder Unicorn and rider...
it is a better sculpt by a mile...
much bulkier, and trotting like a Clydesdale, which is very cool...
the Finecast one looks like it's running drunk, and suffers from Anorexia...
i definitely wouldn't buy it, even at half the price...
i can just imagine his sad, droopy, Finecast horn;(...

cheers
jah

 English Assassin wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Anyone want a finecast unicorn for $16.50?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1710046a

Hey, don't I recognise that goat-pony thing from twenty years ago?

http://www.solegends.com/marauder/mm83elfmageunicorn.htm

Why yes I do...

Not quite, it's the Unicorn that Morgana le Fay was first released on back... oooh a while now, 4th or 5th edition fantasy. Still, 20 years it is not far off.

 notprop wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
You think that's bad? Check how much a pack of three Fell Bats will set you back.

Or 5 Bloodknights.....

agreed blood knights have been over priced for a long time

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Not quite, it's the Unicorn that Morgana le Fay was first released on back... oooh a while now, 4th or 5th edition fantasy. Still, 20 years it is not far off.

Blimey, so it is! Well done to Trish Morrison for getting paid to do what was essentially the same sculpt twice! And well done to Howard and Jah for their visual acuity.

And yes, though the detail isn't as fine, I think I prefer the pose of the earlier one (though its draught house aesthetic doesn't necessarily perfectly fit the elves, who - along with their horses - were even skinnier back then than they are now).

you are correct, EA...
Marauder had a completely different aesthetic from Citadel, 20 years ago...
they were all much chunkier than Citadel...
i always liked the more comic feel of the sculpts...

if you put that Marauder Unicorn next to one of the original Citadel Elven steeds, it would be about 3X wider...
the thing is, painted well, the old Unicorn looked great...

since the topic is pricing, and value for the money, i would much prefer to spend my money on a nice chunk of metal rather than a suspect bit of resin...
the fact that we can spend less on a good product (multi-part plastics), or spend more on a poor product (Finecast) is the crux...
vote with your wallet...
as i said previously, i have no problem with the cost of a Studio Mcvey piece, as i know i'm getting a quality product...
when they get the formula sorted out for Finecast, then i will be happy to buy it...
of course, i'll still be buying from discount retailers where possible...
that bit of a discount actually drives customers to spend more...
instead of being upset about GW's prices, i just look for the best discount i can find, and then happily play with my new toy soldiers...

cheers
jah