I know there's a couple threads on the ChaosSM book, going, but this thread's focus is on the codex creep from BA/SW through DE, Necrons and GK. And now the apparent halt of said "Codex Creep."
After a read through, and more looking and list making, I didn't pick up on anything in the New Kellydex that appeared to be anything as awesome as, say, TWC, Mephiston, Imotekh's Lightning, Telsa guns, Purifiers, Venom (spam) and the other unit/combos that we typically bitch about being over powered or broken.
It seems as though Kellydex is just a 6e update. Here and there, points have been reduced, an Ass-Can added back in to Oblit arsenals, etc. Flier rules included. Cultists. A couple AP3 toys for Noise Ms. FnP for them, too. Meh. Nothing to make me drool.
Has the Codex creep taken a pause? Has anyone spotted something uber, killy-kewl, that I missed?
There looks to be some fun combos. Take nurgle daemons of chaos as primary detach with Epidemius and a ton of plague bearers/DPs with MoN. Then as your allied detachment take Typhus with a blob of cultists. Use your destroyer hive on your cultists turn 1 and start racking up the tally. Seems pretty fun and for a themed army could work pretty well.
WhiteWolf01 wrote: There looks to be some fun combos. Take nurgle daemons of chaos as primary detach with Epidemius and a ton of plague bearers/DPs with MoN. Then as your allied detachment take Typhus with a blob of cultists. Use your destroyer hive on your cultists turn 1 and start racking up the tally. Seems pretty fun and for a themed army could work pretty well.
Not legal. Hive can only be used on an init step which requires him to be in combat.
Dang, you're right. Still, throw him in with cultists and get him into assault I suppose. You could care less about killing your own dudes in cc, in this case.
My conscripts don't fear bolters. Their mates did, but what did they know, they were in the first 3 waves. The fourth wave will handle the bolters just fine.
If you guys don't mind a re-direct away from the MMA of SoB vs. Conscripts ...
Anything besides the 'wanna-be' Deffrolla show up in the new book that is making you salivate?
... and would those conscripts be *female* ? Bow-chicka bow bow
13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.
Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.
You should fear Sisters of Battle and I suspect you'll learn to fear 13 point marines soon enough
sisters are 13 points a model too. CSM can have 2 combat weapons, str, t and init 4 for 13 points. add in hatred SM for 1 point and you will learn to fear them. 20 csm with long war are 280 points. on the charge they will put 23 wounds on any Meq or Teq before saves. 7.5 or 3.8 after saves. Still kinda scary.
Nothing broken, hell I'm having a hard time thinking of even decent combo's (the codex pretty much seems bland as oatmeal). One potentially killer combo against low save horde armies would be Vindicators with havoc launchers and Warpflame Gargoyles, it gives the demolisher cannon soulblaze (even though the rule it self kinda sucks).
13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.
Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.
You should fear Sisters of Battle and I suspect you'll learn to fear 13 point marines soon enough
sisters are 13 points a model too. CSM can have 2 combat weapons, str, t and init 4 for 13 points. add in hatred SM for 1 point and you will learn to fear them. 20 csm with long war are 280 points. on the charge they will put 23 wounds on any Meq or Teq before saves. 7.5 or 3.8 after saves. Still kinda scary.
Yep. Also, 6th is all about putting troops on the table and CSM will put a lot of scoring bodies on the table cheaply. You will put a lot of cheap troops on the table, freeing points up for all kinds of other fun units.
'
13 point bolters are strong. not grey hunter strong but strong.
Nobody fears bolters, not that I know of, if that was the case people would fear the slightly even cheaper Sisters of Battle.
You should fear Sisters of Battle and I suspect you'll learn to fear 13 point marines soon enough
sisters are 13 points a model too. CSM can have 2 combat weapons, str, t and init 4 for 13 points. add in hatred SM for 1 point and you will learn to fear them. 20 csm with long war are 280 points. on the charge they will put 23 wounds on any Meq or Teq before saves. 7.5 or 3.8 after saves. Still kinda scary.
Yep. Also, 6th is all about putting troops on the table and CSM will put a lot of scoring bodies on the table cheaply. You will put a lot of cheap troops on the table, freeing points up for all kinds of other fun units.
'
adding in that their home objective is probably camped by 50 points of cuiltists that will take more than pot shots to dislodge they will have more boddies to through at you in the midrange game.
I think there's cheese against space marine armies... taking Abaddon with black crusader you get preferred enemy space marines in a large 12" bubble, and take all shooty things, 2 or three forgefiends with hades autocannon, 1 or two helldrakes with hades, spam chosen w/plasmaguns or sprinkle in some oblits, and noise marines. And take a Warpsmith to repair the daemon engines and weaken any ruins that people might try to hide from the shooting in. Also, spamming the Hades increases your chances that you get some pinning tests go off, it's also a good combo against hordes and light armor.
I kindly ask, again, could ya drop the thread hijacking and either stick to discussing for a power combo from the new book or take your unrelated subject to another place?
@Meade
I'm guessing that there a few incidentals of 6e 'Special Rule' buffs that click in, but nothing fantastic.
@Meade
I'm guessing that there a few incidentals of 6e 'Special Rule' buffs that click in, but nothing fantastic.
Well, the preferred enemy thing is very attractive and so is veterans of the long war. Those two combined give the army a significant buff against anything space marine, which is a large majority of what's out there.
But it's not fantastic, no. I doubt that if you compare this codex to GK, there will be any units as cheap and good as in that codex. I think what you have is army wide, most things went from 'terrible' to 'not that bad'. There are some units that rocked even in the last codex, like Abaddon, or Oblits, that got a bit better but the main difference now is, the rest of the codex is usable and they won't have to pull everyone elses weight. I think that now the codex is comparable to something like Blood Angels.
The randomness keeps the codex from being uber but on the other hand, but I think a smart general could work with it. For example if you design your army around those charts, so that no matter what happens you have some benefit or combo you can do. Then you have the advantage where your enemy has no way to predict what your capabilities are from turn to turn.
I think the real power gamer combos, like the rest of sixth, will probably involve some allies though. I'm more or less happy that on it's own, this codex won't be seen as a cheesy codex, and it's fun, so people will want to play against it. But at least it won't be so terrible that it just gets stomped.
So, not a lot of change. The good stuff for chaos is mostly focused on very crowded FOC slots that keeps you from really capitalizing on their strengths.
A bit of possible cheese could be twin flamer dragons and twin Nurgle Oblits. Oblits get two turns of cracking transports before dragons come in and murder the contents.
A pair of Dirge-caster rhinos escorting your Land Raider up along the board are also not a bad idea. If even one is still alive when you get there your heavies can pop out of the Raider and assault facing no overwatch. You can even move flat-out with the rhino before the assault phase to make sure the no-overwatch bubble is there.
Exergy wrote: Honstely I think Chaos Spawn are the cheese in the codex.
450 points for 45 T5 wounds that move as beasts and are fearless.
I agree, this is the best unit in the dex IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote: Helldrakes with the flamer are game breaking. There's your cheese.
Hardly, don't forget it needs LoS to allocate wounds, and it will be nerfed like the DR for being hull mounted. This means a clever opponent will hide as many bodies as he can from LoS if he knows it's arriving. I think the dragon is trash personally, it loses out to every flier currently out there. It needs a money shot and a half to gain it's points back before it gets blown out of the air.
Hardly, don't forget it needs LoS to allocate wounds, and it will be nerfed like the DR for being hull mounted. This means a clever opponent will hide as many bodies as he can from LoS if he knows it's arriving. I think the dragon is trash personally, it loses out to every flier currently out there. It needs a money shot and a half to gain it's points back before it gets blown out of the air.
Line of Sight is pretty easy to get on a unit that moves 36" and sits 6" in the air. There's no "clever" way to hide from it except in a transport.
And blown out of the air? Who, besides Imperial Guard is blowing AV 12, Invulnerable save, 3 HP, regenerating fliers out of the air?
Helldrakes essentially get to kill any 5 models that don't have multiple wounds, a 2+ armor save, or a very good invulnerable save, from the turn they arrive and then every turn until the end of the game.
Hardly, don't forget it needs LoS to allocate wounds, and it will be nerfed like the DR for being hull mounted. This means a clever opponent will hide as many bodies as he can from LoS if he knows it's arriving. I think the dragon is trash personally, it loses out to every flier currently out there. It needs a money shot and a half to gain it's points back before it gets blown out of the air.
Line of Sight is pretty easy to get on a unit that moves 36" and sits 6" in the air. There's no "clever" way to hide from it except in a transport.
And blown out of the air? Who, besides Imperial Guard is blowing AV 12, Invulnerable save, 3 HP, regenerating fliers out of the air?
Helldrakes essentially get to kill any 5 models that don't have multiple wounds, a 2+ armor save, or a very good invulnerable save, from the turn they arrive and then every turn until the end of the game.
Well said. Bought my first one yesterday and look forward to using it to fry some things.
Brothererekose wrote: Has the Codex creep taken a pause? Has anyone spotted something uber, killy-kewl, that I missed?
Daemons as allies. Flamers and screamers are so good they are a nice boost to everyone.
Havocs are 115 points for 4 AC is very nice. Buy 2 of them, stick em in a bastion with a quad gun, and for just over 350 points you are bringing 20 STR 7 shots.
Another is to MoN most of your CSM (like those previously mentioned havocs) and use Epdi to rack up a killer tally. Now you can have awesome plaugebearers or a 3++ FNP.for plague marines.
Don't forget MoN bikes for 26 points each. T6 bikes means STR 4 bounces off -- making them a good assault unit. Stick a lord for extra beatstick.
Or you can bring spawn if you can either make them from scrach or are willing to fork out $41.50 for 2. Give them MoN to make them hard to hurt with bolter fire.
I'd say make the spawn out of Dryad kits would be simplest. (Potentially combined with some other kits, like ogres, certain daemons, or whatever gribbly things are floating about in your bitz box.)
Really must actually read my Chaos book through...
I'm really expecting the new dragons and dinobots to be cheese once people get to play with them and find the best combos. I think people are overlooking the daemonforge ability and those invul saves, IWND are great. Odds are that one of those things works right in the game.
The dragon flamer is a real killer. Pair it up with some deepstriking daemons with pavane, to get the whole squad in formation.. and maybe a bonus vehicle. Against other flyers it is more resilient than they are, but sadly getting off ~2 S8 shots isn't scary for other AV12 fliers. But being able to re-roll those pens, even once per game, can make a difference in a dogfight.
Grey Templar wrote: So CSM that buy the CCW are cheaper GHs without Counter Attack.
If you buy the CCW, they are more expensive than Grey Hunters (10 point tax), don't have Know No Fear or Nightfighting, pay more for their first special weapon, and don't get the second one for free.
All in all, they aren't much like Grey Hunters at all.
Grey Templar wrote: So CSM that buy the CCW are cheaper GHs without Counter Attack.
If you buy the CCW, they are more expensive than Grey Hunters (10 point tax), don't have Know No Fear or Nightfighting, pay more for their first special weapon, and don't get the second one for free.
All in all, they aren't much like Grey Hunters at all.
Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.
schadenfreude wrote: Votlw is better than most people give it credit for. Against meq which is the meta votlw increases cc damage by 50% for 1 point per model on csm.
The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.
it is only in the first round of combat. so on the charge your mok pistol and CCW are gonna average 3 hits per base off their 4 attacks. Subsiquent rounds they will average one hit per base.
it is only in the first round of combat. so on the charge your mok pistol and CCW are gonna average 3 hits per base off their 4 attacks. Subsiquent rounds they will average one hit per base.
And heaven forbid you draw necrons or dark eldar as your tournament opponent. 20 marines on foot won't last long.
Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.
For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.
Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.
Yeah but that's the point though, you don't want to give them the same wargear. The new Chaos marines are awesome because they give you some of the cheapest space marine statline troops in the game. If I wanted to upgrade a ton of stuff, I'd get another unt. But for a cheap and reliable holding unit, the new CSM are awesome.
Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.
For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.
Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.
Yeah but that's the point though, you don't want to give them the same wargear. The new Chaos marines are awesome because they give you some of the cheapest space marine statline troops in the game. If I wanted to upgrade a ton of stuff, I'd get another unt. But for a cheap and reliable holding unit, the new CSM are awesome.
For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.
Although not as good, once you take care of the anti vehicle stuff(which the dragon will do a damn good job of doing, it can always hover if you need it to.
Acute Senses doesn't affact Night Fighting anymore, and is in fact rather useless on Grey Hunters now.
For some reason I thought they replaced that in the errata. I am mistaken.
Point remains, Grey Hunters are still cheaper and/or better than CSM given the same wargear.
Yeah but that's the point though, you don't want to give them the same wargear. The new Chaos marines are awesome because they give you some of the cheapest space marine statline troops in the game. If I wanted to upgrade a ton of stuff, I'd get another unt. But for a cheap and reliable holding unit, the new CSM are awesome.
For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.
Deep striking BA assault squads with flamers will eat them. They're not that impervious.
it is only in the first round of combat. so on the charge your mok pistol and CCW are gonna average 3 hits per base off their 4 attacks. Subsiquent rounds they will average one hit per base.
And heaven forbid you draw necrons or dark eldar as your tournament opponent. 20 marines on foot won't last long.
or orks, or guard, or nids, or cwe. paying too many points for VotlW or Black Crusade will bite you in the but eventually.
For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.
Deep striking BA assault squads with flamers will eat them. They're not that impervious.
They would eat the min sized basic CSM squad too though.
For backfield duty cultists are just as good though. As long as you are out of small arms fire range the cultists are just as hard to kill as a marine. And will have 3x as many wounds for the same point cost.
Deep striking BA assault squads with flamers will eat them. They're not that impervious.
They would eat the min sized basic CSM squad too though.
Not as quickly, and besides, who ever said anything about minimum sized CSM squads?
Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.
5 havoks with 4 autocannons are dirt cheap.
Dragon is pretty sick with the vector strike.
MoK Warpsmith with a deamonweapon, ya, 7 attacks + D6 on the charge, ya.
Noise marines are pretty great at eliminating units hiding behind the now ever prevalent aegis defense lines.
Vanilla chaos marines can be fielded in a horde, they can also be few and far between with all the upgrades which is a pretty cool tactical flexibility as they can be geared to do anything.
Raptors and bikes are dirt cheap and make great escorts for super killy lords.
buddha wrote: Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.
However, being a vehicle, it's only getting a 5+ Cover, right?
buddha wrote: MoK Warpsmith with a deamonweapon, ya, 7 attacks + D6 on the charge, ya.
Raptors and bikes are dirt cheap and make great escorts for super killy lords.
I think these both are indicative of where the 'dex is going: cheaper units supporting uber Lords.
buddha wrote: Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.
...is there some rule with the ADL? because the forgefiend seems...a bit...oversized to hide behind it?
buddha wrote: Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.
...is there some rule with the ADL? because the forgefiend seems...a bit...oversized to hide behind it?
Only 25% of the model has to covered so as long as the fiend isn't 4x taller than the wall welcome to 6th ed.
schadenfreude wrote: Only 25% of the model has to covered so as long as the fiend isn't 4x taller than the wall welcome to 6th ed.
Whilst I realize this, the forgefiend...looks rather large. Like, big enough that potentially 25% isn't covered by the ADL. So instead of the asshattery, how about you just go "Yes, the wall is big enough to cover the model. no there is no special rule required." Or "no, the wall is too short to cover this large model. Drat! back to to the drawingboard!" instead of "welcome to 6th ed."? Might make you look like less of an asshat bro
schadenfreude wrote: Votlw is better than most people give it credit for. Against meq which is the meta votlw increases cc damage by 50% for 1 point per model on csm.
The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.
One build that comes to mind:
Huron
Fabius Bile
20 Enhanced CSM with VotIW and CCW, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Meltaguns, Champ with Power Weapon
20 CSM, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Plasma Guns
20 CSM, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of Excess, 2 Plasma Guns
That gives you 60 Fearless, Feel No Pain Marines who are all potentially infiltrating up into the enemy's face. You can then probably round out the list with some Havocs with Autocannons and perhaps a squad of FNP Slaaneshi Bikers.
I don't think it is too overwhelming, but there are certainly lists that will have trouble dealing with that.
That gives you 60 Fearless, Feel No Pain Marines who are all potentially infiltrating up into the enemy's face. You can then probably round out the list with some Havocs with Autocannons and perhaps a squad of FNP Slaaneshi Bikers.
I don't think it is too overwhelming, but there are certainly lists that will have trouble dealing with that.
And 2 Helldrakes systematically destroy them over the course of the game while they stand helplessly about losing half a squad every turn.
That gives you 60 Fearless, Feel No Pain Marines who are all potentially infiltrating up into the enemy's face. You can then probably round out the list with some Havocs with Autocannons and perhaps a squad of FNP Slaaneshi Bikers.
I don't think it is too overwhelming, but there are certainly lists that will have trouble dealing with that.
And 2 Helldrakes systematically destroy them over the course of the game while they stand helplessly about losing half a squad every turn.
A Helldrake with a baleflamer, or better two of them, is a pain. Termies withstand them but all MEQ including Bikes will be heavily in danger.
Seems to me that an army can be made out of a host of T5/T6 guys. That's every unit at T5/T6 except maybe Cultists/Zombies.
This is quite a nasty army to face as they would just be tanking all game, being incredibly hard to shift and would do an ok job at whittling down any force that they came across.
Puscifer wrote: Seems to me that an army can be made out of a host of T5/T6 guys. That's every unit at T5/T6 except maybe Cultists/Zombies.
This is quite a nasty army to face as they would just be tanking all game, being incredibly hard to shift and would do an ok job at whittling down any force that they came across.
I had a look into this and it seems strong.
It can work, especially if you can maximize the number of T5 scoring units. It's a shame bikes cannot be troops; mobile T6 troops would be so amazing.
A bunch of enhanced nurgle or slaanesh marines, plus Typhus and some zombies and small Plague Marine squads are more than enough troops with T5 or fnp or huge blobs.
I think we might be onto something. Only downside is guard would eradicate the army in a few short turns.
The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.
How does getting +1 LD increase my damage 50%, ? increasing my damage by 50% would be me getting 50% more attacks i dont understand.
Are you just referring to Mok, getting rage or counter attack? i think that MoS+excess would be better then MoK, but i dunno, im trying out my first combos myself im having mixed results.
The 2 best builds i can think of is 20 csm with votlw, don't spend the extra points on bolters, and either mok + wrath or mos+ excess.
How does getting +1 LD increase my damage 50%, ? increasing my damage by 50% would be me getting 50% more attacks i dont understand.
Are you just referring to Mok, getting rage or counter attack? i think that MoS+excess would be better then MoK, but i dunno, im trying out my first combos myself im having mixed results.
Veterans of the Long War also gives Hatred (Space Marines) which allows you to reroll misses in close combat in the first round of combat against Space Marines. Which translates to around 50% more hits against units of equal WS.
It isn't terrible, but it is only for round 1, so can't be relied on too heavily. Between it and Mark of Khorne and Furious Charge from Icon of Wrath, a unit of Chaos Marines can hit with quite a lot of power in round 1 of combat - but if you get stuck in an extended combat, all those bonuses no longer help you.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the khorne lord on juggernaut with axe of blind fury and melta bombs. 7-13 attacks at WS5, I5, S6, AP2. For 150 points, that's ridiculous.
Puscifer wrote: Seems to me that an army can be made out of a host of T5/T6 guys. That's every unit at T5/T6 except maybe Cultists/Zombies.
This is quite a nasty army to face as they would just be tanking all game, being incredibly hard to shift and would do an ok job at whittling down any force that they came across.
I had a look into this and it seems strong.
Plasma vs Marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Plasma vs T5 marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Plasma vs grot- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Battlecannon vs Marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Battlecannon vs T5 marine- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Battlecannon vs grot- wounds on 2+, no armor save
Sometimes, mo' bodies is better than tougher bodies
Grey Templar wrote: Yes, but you can only take so much Plasma and so many Battlecannons.
Oh I agree, some armies can pack alot, and some can pack not as many, but my point still stands. Things that are very good at killing marines tend to not care too much about T4/5.
There's no cheddar in the new CSM besides taking a demon prince with the black mace, but even then a simply str 10 downs the fool, so no one is worrying.
I just wish hellbrutes didn't suck as much as they do. Currently they are the new spawn.
The fact that there AREN'T any cheesy units in this dex is a sign that it is a GOOD codex. The game is a GAME and should be balanced. If every codex was full of OP units then there would be no point in using anything other than them. This seems like one of the most balanced books in a while and I think that is a good thing.
I agree that some units are a little less potent than they should be and that is unfortunate. Others are completely balanced though, and that is good. The fact that your marines AREN'T grey hunters is good. Bc grey hunters are better for no reason. That isn't fun or balanced, it's frustrating.
I am not a Chaos player but my friend plays chaos and I do not want to be discouraged from playing him bc his book is OP. He already plays gaurd and they are VERY good and are a tough army to play day after day. I play Dark Angels and they are by no means OP but they are pretty decent. I hope that my new update is on par with this book. Some units will be meh and others will be good. A book should strive for balance, not cheese.
And if all those CSM players can use their balanced army to beat or even compete with a cheesy list, that is rewarding. This book is far from unplayable.
Speaking of psychic powers: I'm really leaning towards the sorcerer for my cheap HQ choice. You don't have to spend a lot of points to give him an invuln save and more biomancy abilities than you can shake a stick at. I'm thinking of using him instead of the lord.
Stoffer wrote: Speaking of psychic powers: I'm really leaning towards the sorcerer for my cheap HQ choice. You don't have to spend a lot of points to give him an invuln save and more biomancy abilities than you can shake a stick at. I'm thinking of using him instead of the lord.
My issue with the sorcerer is that he doesn't open any cult troops for scoring unless you go Tzeentch, and Nurgle and Slaanesh sorcerers seem to be the most fun. I have a fair bit of cult troops about and using them as plain elites just doesn't cut it.
Pointswise I cant see needing two different cult units as troops. However a way around this(although expensive) is take typhus who has to take nurgle powers(and is a level two psyker) and then a lord of the other mark you wanted.
However you can always go non psyker and take two cults as your troop choices. I was looking into nurgle and slannesh myself.
Abaddon is possibly the best special character there is. He's way undercosted for what he does.
A) he has all the marks. You can field all the cult troops as troops.
B) his weapons tear everything apart.
C) stick him in a unit of Terminators and deep strike them in for lulz.
We have a campaign going on atm and one guy has taken Abaddon and a fair amount of Terminators as a Deathstar. Not sure what mark he gave them, but he hasn't lost a game yet.
Abaddon is possibly the best special character there is. He's way undercosted for what he does.
A) he has all the marks. You can field all the cult troops as troops.
B) his weapons tear everything apart.
C) stick him in a unit of Terminators and deep strike them in for lulz.
We have a campaign going on atm and one guy has taken Abaddon and a fair amount of Terminators as a Deathstar. Not sure what mark he gave them, but he hasn't lost a game yet.
Who ever this person is, he is cheating. Since marks of khorne does not makes berserkers troops nor does nurgle make plague marines troops.
Only chaos lord with marks make them troops abbaddon does not. He only makes chosen troops
Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.
Krellnus wrote: Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.
At least if I read it correctly anyway.
nice catch, looks like it is any kills. shooting would count, but you would have to separate out the champion of chaos's shots and he would have to do at least one wound.
Krellnus wrote: Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.
At least if I read it correctly anyway.
nice catch, looks like it is any kills. shooting would count, but you would have to separate out the champion of chaos's shots and he would have to do at least one wound.
Might be worth it if you can take a combi-weapon or a bolter get that precision shot and place it on a Sgt . Low odds but gravy if it works.
Krellnus wrote: Also, check the wording for champions of chaos, although it says the character must challenge in close combat, it only says he has kill an enemy character (not specifying ranged or melee) to roll on the boon of the gods table.
At least if I read it correctly anyway.
nice catch, looks like it is any kills. shooting would count, but you would have to separate out the champion of chaos's shots and he would have to do at least one wound.
Might be worth it if you can take a combi-weapon or a bolter get that precision shot and place it on a Sgt . Low odds but gravy if it works.
Im thinking more for those single characters and MCs that are out there. It might be worth trying to ping them to death.
IE mephiston has only a few wounds left. Shot him to gak with a combi plasma on a character + the squad he is in with another plasma and some bolters. If the combiplasma wounds AND if mephy dies, you roll on the boon table.
Abaddon is possibly the best special character there is. He's way undercosted for what he does.
A) he has all the marks. You can field all the cult troops as troops.
B) his weapons tear everything apart.
C) stick him in a unit of Terminators and deep strike them in for lulz.
We have a campaign going on atm and one guy has taken Abaddon and a fair amount of Terminators as a Deathstar. Not sure what mark he gave them, but he hasn't lost a game yet.
Abaddon does not allow you to take Cult elites as troops. Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully). And chosen are meh. However, he can make an escort squad fearless and is one of the strongest close combat characters in the game. I'll typically only lose to ubercheese like Swarmstar or multiple vindicare. His preferred enemy bubble is also pretty awesome against space marines.
Deathguard lists go cheesier. Heldrakes are strong and w/ pavane and decent shooty might be very cheesy. T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good. someone mentioned a DPI with the blackmace.... not sure if he can take that but if so that's pretty killy.
I played a game against night lords yesterday, he infiltrated untis of raptors with flamers and meltas, and jumped at me turn 1 in a nasty alpha strike.
Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).
Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'
Boneblade wrote:I'll typically only lose to ubercheese like Swarmstar or multiple vindicare.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk this up to a mistake, assuming you meant to say 'he will lose' rather than speaking in the first person. As for multiple Vindicare, there's no such thing.
Boneblade wrote:T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good.
No offense, but I love when people 'expect' things to happen that they just happen to want. Fearless was taken off Oblits for a very good reason, and they aren't going to FAQ it back on just because people want them to have it. Moving past the denial stage is good for people.
Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).
Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.
Boneblade wrote:T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good.
No offense, but I love when people 'expect' things to happen that they just happen to want. Fearless was taken off Oblits for a very good reason, and they aren't going to FAQ it back on just because people want them to have it. Moving past the denial stage is good for people.
yes the lost fearless for a reason. why mutilators dont have it is kind of wierd though. They are pretty useless, def not worth an elite slot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iGuy91 wrote: I played a game against night lords yesterday, he infiltrated untis of raptors with flamers and meltas, and jumped at me turn 1 in a nasty alpha strike.
I'd say they were pretttyyyy good
infiltrating units cannot assault first turn unless they go second.
buddha wrote: Forgefiend with 2 hades and a ectoplasma cannon is just a sick amount of str.8. Put behind a defense line and it is nigh impossible to kill.
However, being a vehicle, it's only getting a 5+ Cover, right?
Who cares about cover? They get a 5+ invul save =)
Boneblade wrote:T5 blitz are nice and I expect them to gain fearless, which will make them incredibly good.
No offense, but I love when people 'expect' things to happen that they just happen to want. Fearless was taken off Oblits for a very good reason, and they aren't going to FAQ it back on just because people want them to have it. Moving past the denial stage is good for people.
yes the lost fearless for a reason. why mutilators dont have it is kind of wierd though. They are pretty useless, def not worth an elite slot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iGuy91 wrote: I played a game against night lords yesterday, he infiltrated untis of raptors with flamers and meltas, and jumped at me turn 1 in a nasty alpha strike.
I'd say they were pretttyyyy good
infiltrating units cannot assault first turn unless they go second.
Oh i know, he managed to down a whole squad of warriors between two flamers and the brand of skalathrax, and then used meltaguns to pop a vehicle before it could move to get a jink save, he went first.
Honestly, they worked very well in melee as well later on
Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).
Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.
Read my post again; it's handy to read posts before replying to them you know.
Let me summarise; you're wrong. And you've even quoted the rule that says you are wrong. Read it again, read my post for the first time, and think on it for awhile.
And even the example you gave says Abby has a different mark to Berserkers, not that the Berserkers have a different mark to Abby, and that's the difference; not both have to be true at the same time. The prerequisite is for the Berserkers to have the different mark, not Abby.
Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).
Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.
Read my post again; it's handy to read posts before replying to them you know.
Let me summarise; you're wrong. And you've even quoted the rule that says you are wrong. Read it again, read my post for the first time, and think on it for awhile.
And even the example you gave says Abby has a different mark to Berserkers, not that the Berserkers have a different mark to Abby, and that's the difference; not both have to be true at the same time. The prerequisite is for the Berserkers to have the different mark, not Abby.
An IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He may not join a unit if it has any Mark besides a Mark of Nurgle.
Do the Berserkers have a Mark of Nurgle?
It's not "do they have the same Mark" as you're asserting, rather the rule is "they must not have different Marks".
Some Noise Marines with an allied Herald of Nurgle is pretty cheesy. The guy makes everyone slow and purposeful so they can move and fire their salvo at full range. The chaos daemons say they can't be with other daemons of the same god, but there's no mention of CSM/Marks. And CSMICs can't go with units with opposite marks, but none of the Daemon units have marks.
sehguhdier wrote: Some Noise Marines with an allied Herald of Nurgle is pretty cheesy. The guy makes everyone slow and purposeful so they can move and fire their salvo at full range. The chaos daemons say they can't be with other daemons of the same god, but there's no mention of CSM/Marks. And CSMICs can't go with units with opposite marks, but none of the Daemon units have marks.
Except they FAQ'ed that Daemon IC's can't join CSM units and vice versa.
What's the possibility of maxing Missile and Havoc Launchers
the best that I can think of it taking Abby and 6 squads of 5 chosen each with 1 missile launcher and each in a rhino with a havoc. Then filling all 3 Heavy slots with havocs with missile launchers (probably flakk upgrades too) in rhino's with havoc launchers. Not sure about helbrutes with launchers or termies in rhinos
that would be 18 Missile Launchers and 9 havoc launchers at the very least, meaning you should be able to take on anything...emphasis on the "should be"
The other lolzy thing that I believe is worth mentioning, not sure if it's cheese or not. No one seems to have brought it up is the Dimension Key. The possibility of taking a chaos lord on a steed of slaneesh with a dimension key and possibly shutting down an entire flank with a 12" dangerous terrain would be pretty funny. (2v2 tourney battles taking 2 of them?)
Along with this, then being able to deepstrike Termies, Oblits, Warp Talons and Raptors where ever you need them for the rest of the game seems a bit cheese as you'd be able to at least double melta any vehicle you choose or flame any camping units on an objective.
A couple of downsides:
getting your lord into combat might be a serious pain. Also with the codex being rather balanced, you can only accurately deepstrike units from the CSM codex and not your daemon allies :( and with the majority of your points going into deepstrike units you'll probably need to take cultists.
Finally something that I'm not sure about but someone mentioned this in a different thread. What's the possibility of the Daemon prince taking a combat familiar and that creature also generating AP 2 attacks?
No idea. But i have been toying with 2 autocannon 2 lascannon havocs and two extra guys for ablative wounds on a quad gun. Lascannons are not badly priced as long as you can cheaply keep them safe.
Boneblade wrote:Under current RAW he cannot even join a squad with a Mark. (Read the Marks of Chaos section carefully).
Actually you are the one that needs to go read that section carefully. The rule says a character cannot join a squad with a different mark, not a squad cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. There is a difference, and this is where people (not just you) are making the mistake. By RAW he can join any unit. Essentially the logical sequence is 'what mark does Abby have?', followed by 'does the squad he wants to join have that mark?', rather than 'what mark does this squad have?', followed by 'does the character trying to join have a different mark?'
"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." Page 30.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. Those Berserkers have a Mark of Khorne. Abby can't join them. It doesn't matter that Abby also has a Mark of Khorne - his different Mark prevents him from joining the unit.
Read my post again; it's handy to read posts before replying to them you know.
Let me summarise; you're wrong. And you've even quoted the rule that says you are wrong. Read it again, read my post for the first time, and think on it for awhile.
And even the example you gave says Abby has a different mark to Berserkers, not that the Berserkers have a different mark to Abby, and that's the difference; not both have to be true at the same time. The prerequisite is for the Berserkers to have the different mark, not Abby.
An IC with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark.
Abby has a Mark of Nurgle. He may not join a unit if it has any Mark besides a Mark of Nurgle.
Do the Berserkers have a Mark of Nurgle?
It's not "do they have the same Mark" as you're asserting, rather the rule is "they must not have different Marks".
This is how I would justify it: Technically, Abby doesn't have ANY marks. He has a special rule that ACTS like all the other marks. Therefore, he does not have a different mark from the unit he's joining. Sure, it has holes but most of the other people in my play group agree that it is an OK workaround until they FAQ it.
Right, but they don't actually list every mark in his profile. It is his special rule that essentially gives an equivalent of each mark. It's a technicality, for sure, but I am pretty sure that RAI, we can agree, they didn't intend him to not be able to join marked units.
sehguhdier wrote: Some Noise Marines with an allied Herald of Nurgle is pretty cheesy. The guy makes everyone slow and purposeful so they can move and fire their salvo at full range. The chaos daemons say they can't be with other daemons of the same god, but there's no mention of CSM/Marks. And CSMICs can't go with units with opposite marks, but none of the Daemon units have marks.
Except they FAQ'ed that Daemon IC's can't join CSM units and vice versa.
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: Right, but they don't actually list every mark in his profile. It is his special rule that essentially gives an equivalent of each mark. It's a technicality, for sure, but I am pretty sure that RAI, we can agree, they didn't intend him to not be able to join marked units.
Page 57 doesn't say it's an equivalent - it says he has every Mark.
And I don't know what they intended.
You really think the Chaos Lord of an Undivided legion really can't join marked units? That is clearly not how they intended it. I may not know that for sure, but it isn't exactly a large leap of logic.
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: You really think the Chaos Lord of an Undivided legion really can't join marked units? That is clearly not how they intended it. I may not know that for sure, but it isn't exactly a large leap of logic.
By the rules, no he can't.
I don't know their intent. You're right, it's possible they intended Abby to be able to join Marked units, but its also possible they intended for him not to. Just like they might have intended for Oblits to be Fearless.
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: You really think the Chaos Lord of an Undivided legion really can't join marked units? That is clearly not how they intended it. I may not know that for sure, but it isn't exactly a large leap of logic.
By the rules, no he can't.
I don't know their intent. You're right, it's possible they intended Abby to be able to join Marked units, but its also possible they intended for him not to. Just like they might have intended for Oblits to be Fearless.
If they intended Obliterators to be Fearless, then they would have given them Fearless. If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.
If you understand but still disagree for whatever reason you'v chosen, then whatever, but good luck finding Chaos opponent's to play and agree on that. Either way, I'm sick of arguing this, especially in tread that has nothing to do with this. So I'm out, I suggest you do the same.
So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?
Godless-Mimicry wrote: If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.
A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?
I'm not bellyaching, please stop assuming there's negative emotions to what I'm saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kevlar wrote: So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?
No, but thanks for assuming that.
First I'd point out that's against the RAW.
Then, since I normally only get the chance to play at tournaments lately, I'd get the TO to make a call and live with whatever he decided.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.
A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?
I'm not bellyaching, please stop assuming there's negative emotions to what I'm saying.
Hey, some of us post on this forum just to point out other people are wrong note for those who lack humor: This is a joke. really!
Kevlar wrote: So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?
No, but thanks for assuming that.
First I'd point out that's against the RAW.
Then, since I normally only get the chance to play at tournaments lately, I'd get the TO to make a call and live with whatever he decided.
I think he was talking to Godless Mimicry, not you mate
Barrywise wrote: A couple of downsides: getting your lord into combat might be a serious pain.
Not just getting him there, but getting him there and killing something by turn 2, when your reserves start arriving - this is the subject of much discussion elsewhere, but so far the main idea for this seems to be taking the second turn to allow a first turn charge if your opponent moves forward.
Finally something that I'm not sure about but someone mentioned this in a different thread. What's the possibility of the Daemon prince taking a combat familiar and that creature also generating AP 2 attacks?
Afraid not on the AP2, though the Prince can take one. Check the Chaos Rewards section - it explicitly states the Familiar's attacks are AP -.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: If they had intended for Abby not to be able to join units, they would have done so, and any amount of bellyaching otherwise doesn't mean he can't. Plain english and logical progression says he can. I understand the mix up, but it really shouldn't be that hard to understand when it is laid plain on front of you.
A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?
I'm not bellyaching, please stop assuming there's negative emotions to what I'm saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kevlar wrote: So if someone were to field a chaos list against you and they had abaddon in a unit of cult marines what would you do? Cry and pack up your stuff and go home?
No, but thanks for assuming that.
First I'd point out that's against the RAW.
Then, since I normally only get the chance to play at tournaments lately, I'd get the TO to make a call and live with whatever he decided.
To answer your question, no. Abby does not have a different mark. He has several.
At any rate, I took this debate over to the thread already started in the YMDC forum, see ya there.
Grey Templar wrote: Nope, having the Daemon rule doesn't make you fearless. it gives you a 5+ ward, makes you cause Fear, and means you are screwed vs GKs.
Ive already seen some abaddon cheese with chosen and plasma. 5 units with 5 plasma each. However its cheesiness maybe offset by its risk. Possibly some horde cheese. since fantasy is all about hordes, its lookin like 40k will be also. Looks More like a GW cheese move to sell more models. But hey, I like the game, i like the models and every battle is voluntary. If some one is playin cheese then i dont play with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait i thought if you cause fear you are immune to other units that cause fear?
Unfortunately not... that's why units will have both Fear and Fearless in their profile (Chaos spawn do, I think). If Fear made them immune, they wouldn't need to list Fearless as well.
Ineedvc2500 wrote: Ive already seen some abaddon cheese with chosen and plasma. 5 units with 5 plasma each. However its cheesiness maybe offset by its risk. Possibly some horde cheese. since fantasy is all about hordes, its lookin like 40k will be also. Looks More like a GW cheese move to sell more models. But hey, I like the game, i like the models and every battle is voluntary. If some one is playin cheese then i dont play with them.
That's not cheesy though as it is as glass as a glass cannon can be. That's a lot of points gone into 25 power armoured bodies. Imperial Guard would be in hysterics.
Ineedvc2500 wrote: Wait i thought if you cause fear you are immune to other units that cause fear?
Yes, but being immune to Fear has nothing to do with Fearless.
Ineedvc2500 wrote: Ive already seen some abaddon cheese with chosen and plasma. 5 units with 5 plasma each. However its cheesiness maybe offset by its risk. Possibly some horde cheese. since fantasy is all about hordes, its lookin like 40k will be also. Looks More like a GW cheese move to sell more models. But hey, I like the game, i like the models and every battle is voluntary. If some one is playin cheese then i dont play with them.
That's a like saying bring fast mobile melta against landraider spam is cheese. It's gone to one extreme and thus has its hard counters.
Jihallah wrote:I think he was talking to Godless Mimicry, not you mate
Then you're not very good at following the conversation, no offense, as Kevlar was agreeing with me.
And your not very good at getting "out" of the conversation like you said your were, but your good at being an asshat
Actually nobody has been talking about the Abaddon issue in awhile now, especially not me, so yes, I did get out of that conversation, so again, not very good at following are you?
And I thought the asshat thing was funny at first, but then when I saw you actively digging up endless amounts of my old posts just to flame me, it wasn't funny anymore, and I will be taking it to the mods, as it is as blatant as flaming can get.
I just played my first Game of 6th Ed. Chaos Space Marines, and this is pretty awesome Cheese:
175pts - Chaos Lord:
Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut Mount, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, Veterans of the Long War
He has the following Cheese: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, IC, Calvary, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, 4 Wounds, Toughness 5. Not to mention, he gets 7+1d6 s6 ap2 attacks on the charge, at initiative 5. I ran him with 12 Khorne Berserkers, from which he broke away to kill a Hellbrute and then a Squad of CSM. My opponent gave up turn 3 (a few things fell in my favor, Night Fighting, first turn, poor reserve rolls for him).
An interesting note for Challenges: They are a defensive power for large single MC's/Characters charging a unit. My Lord charges your squad, challenges, kills 1 guy. Ok, your turn, I wipe out the squad, consolidate, and rinse/repeat next turn. Very good for the likes of DP's, Mounted Lords, FMC's, etc.
The Calvary mount is kind of unprecedentedly good, though, combined with the other upgrades. He singlehandedly kills lightly armored vehicles, almost any squad of infantry ... in style. I guess it's not Matt Ward cheese, if it was he'd kill one squad with a special rule before he gets to assault a 2nd one in the same turn, but still ... he's now an auto-include for any of my lists.
evildrspock wrote: I just played my first Game of 6th Ed. Chaos Space Marines, and this is pretty awesome Cheese:
175pts - Chaos Lord:
Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut Mount, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, Veterans of the Long War
He has the following Cheese: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, IC, Calvary, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, 4 Wounds, Toughness 5. Not to mention, he gets 7+1d6 s6 ap2 attacks on the charge, at initiative 5. I ran him with 12 Khorne Berserkers, from which he broke away to kill a Hellbrute and then a Squad of CSM. My opponent gave up turn 3 (a few things fell in my favor, Night Fighting, first turn, poor reserve rolls for him).
An interesting note for Challenges: They are a defensive power for large single MC's/Characters charging a unit. My Lord charges your squad, challenges, kills 1 guy. Ok, your turn, I wipe out the squad, consolidate, and rinse/repeat next turn. Very good for the likes of DP's, Mounted Lords, FMC's, etc.
This Lord really looks scary. He has toughness 5 and cannot be instantly killed by an S8 pf attack, thanks to the new edition.
Also the addition of Fleet and +1 wound as well makes the Juggernaut a tough choice with a Bike, a worthwhile tradeoff IMO for Turboboosting. More reliable charge distances are pretty useful for an Assault build.
evildrspock wrote: Also the addition of Fleet and +1 wound as well makes the Juggernaut a tough choice with a Bike, a worthwhile tradeoff IMO for Turboboosting. More reliable charge distances are pretty useful for an Assault build.
It depends on if you want to run him solo (Juggernaut) or not (with a unit of Bikers). I plan to field a Lord on bike with MoS leading a Biker squad.
The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.
The thing is if you are running a Juggernaut Lord and Khorne Bikers, I think putting them together for the sake of a slower Turbo Boost is fine, as you're still super fast, have some powerful shooting, and devastating assault potential. Depending on model positioning some of the Bikers could probably still make a 12" Turbo Boost anyway, you just have to make sure a few stay bc to keep coherency with the Lord after he runs. I mean the average run is 4", and a Bike base is 2" long, so you only need 1 Biker to fall behind to keep the Lord in coherency. Not bad IMO. Of course for Slaanesh this becomes easier as the Steed gives an extra 3" on the run.
armis wrote: The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.
Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.
That's true, but I don't see any cheesy short range firepower in the list, except the ridiculously fragile Abaddon Chosen list. GK will shoot way more than Chaos, while Necrons have any number of horribly cheesy shenanigans to pull on you, from 2+ rerollable saves to putting everything on fliers.
armis wrote:The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.
Only? There's Forgefiends, Obliterators, Havocs, Defilers, CSM Predators / Vindicators / Landraiders, heavy weapons on CSM squads, Heldrakes, hell, even Rhinos can be kitted out with a reasonable amount of firepower (a havoc + 2 combi-bolters). (There's probably more, this is just what I can remember off the top of my head.)
Personally, I'm going to be running 2 Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons, 2 Heldrakes with Hades Autocannons, a Land Raider or Defiler then as many Autocannons as I can fit elsewhere (I wonder if I can justify a 3rd Forgefiend and Heldrake in that list for an extra 12 shots....)
But this is mostly because I love giant gribblies (i.e. I have no interest in oblits, most marked troops, etc.)
Godless-Mimicry wrote: The thing is if you are running a Juggernaut Lord and Khorne Bikers, I think putting them together for the sake of a slower Turbo Boost is fine, as you're still super fast, have some powerful shooting, and devastating assault potential. Depending on model positioning some of the Bikers could probably still make a 12" Turbo Boost anyway, you just have to make sure a few stay bc to keep coherency with the Lord after he runs. I mean the average run is 4", and a Bike base is 2" long, so you only need 1 Biker to fall behind to keep the Lord in coherency. Not bad IMO. Of course for Slaanesh this becomes easier as the Steed gives an extra 3" on the run.
armis wrote: The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.
Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.
I think the key with any Chaos list may turn out to be a blend of Shooting/CC, due to their challenge rules. You cannot resist challenges, so either you forget about arming your champions, or you prepare for it. The key is you can be decent in shooting, with strong versatility. Plus there are some decent close range shooting options; look at noise marines, look at 1k Sons, look at Chosen/Havocs with 5 Special Weapons ... You could tool up a decent shooty list without much problem. Especially as the Slaneesh Icon gives Feel No Pain, to help prevent casualties from standing and shooting.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.
That's true, but I don't see any cheesy short range firepower in the list, except the ridiculously fragile Abaddon Chosen list. GK will shoot way more than Chaos, while Necrons have any number of horribly cheesy shenanigans to pull on you, from 2+ rerollable saves to putting everything on fliers.
A book doesn't have to be cheesy to be good though, and no matter what, Grey Knights and Necrons are going to look better than us. Build to compete with them, not to be them, that's how I play it.
And yes, I agree the full on Abby-Wing is too fragile, but a hybrid Abby-Win with him two Plasma blocks and then a normally balanced army built around it hurts Marine armies in the shooting phase a lot. If only Necrons and Guard would go away and stop being popular then
Godless-Mimicry wrote: The thing is if you are running a Juggernaut Lord and Khorne Bikers, I think putting them together for the sake of a slower Turbo Boost is fine, as you're still super fast, have some powerful shooting, and devastating assault potential. Depending on model positioning some of the Bikers could probably still make a 12" Turbo Boost anyway, you just have to make sure a few stay bc to keep coherency with the Lord after he runs. I mean the average run is 4", and a Bike base is 2" long, so you only need 1 Biker to fall behind to keep the Lord in coherency. Not bad IMO. Of course for Slaanesh this becomes easier as the Steed gives an extra 3" on the run.
armis wrote: The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.
Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.
I think the key with any Chaos list may turn out to be a blend of Shooting/CC, due to their challenge rules. You cannot resist challenges, so either you forget about arming your champions, or you prepare for it. The key is you can be decent in shooting, with strong versatility. Plus there are some decent close range shooting options; look at noise marines, look at 1k Sons, look at Chosen/Havocs with 5 Special Weapons ... You could tool up a decent shooty list without much problem. Especially as the Slaneesh Icon gives Feel No Pain, to help prevent casualties from standing and shooting.
I think there's some decent options here.
I couldn't agree more, though personally the only true assault element in my list is a big squad of Bikers with a Lord. I think they can handle anything that needs to be assaulted (Dirge Caster, yup ) but the bulk of my force is a shooty force with a lot of Bolters and Autocannons mostly, though it sports no less than 4 AP3 flamers of various sorts.
armis wrote: The melee cheese potential seems very interesting, but shooting wise the Codex is incredibly boring. There's basically one kind of shooty list you can make: three flamer armed Heldrakes and three units of Obliterators/Forgefiends, whichever turns out to be better. After that there's no long ranged firepower available for the list, apart from the odd heavy weapon.
Shooting isn't all about long ranged firepower though; Grey Knights and Necrons make a testiment to that. The list I'm currently playing is rather shooty and has only two Drakes and no Fiends or Oblits. Mid range is fin so as long as you can get there, which most armies can.
DE also dont have anything over 36" so while not exclusively midrange they are not long range. They do a lot of it at 18"
rigeld2 wrote: A unit of Berserkers has a Mark of Khorne.
Does Abby have a different Mark?
Yes, three of them.
I'm not sure if it makes enough of a difference, but the rules call for the comparison to be made the other way around:
Abby has all four marks.
Do Berzerkers have a dfifferent mark?
Abby has MoN, MoT and MoS. Do Berzerkers have a dfifferent mark?
That's just it, are we called to compare the marks one by one or as a group? I have no idea. Evidence suggests that as far as general word usage goes, the rule can be interpreted either way.
Doing some math, and please forgive me if I am wrong, I am rather tired, 15 CSM(with CCW or Bolter) with MoN, 2 plasmas, Power sword on Champ, Boon and VOTLW comes out at 325 points(I am not sold on the Fearless Icon). I don't know about you but I consider that a steal. 10 Plague Marines with 2 plasmas, Power weapon, gift of mutation and VOTLR is 305.
Now it all comes down to if you prefer quantity over quality. In a game where you want as many troops as possible, the CSM would be the better choice as they are almost as durable as PM but have 50% more models. Is FnP and poisoned attacks beat larger units? Of Course with Epidemius' tally PM becomes a no brainer as the FnP on a 3+ can more than make up for the increased price.
Also I do know that if the Plague Zombies get FAQ'd to be larger than 10 models, you will see a lot more Typhus lead armies with hordes of cheap 35 model units with FnP, Fear and Fearless. They will become undercosted for their ability to sit on an objective and shrug off most small arms fire and most CC attacks.
Doing some math, and please forgive me if I am wrong, I am rather tired, 15 CSM(with CCW or Bolter) with MoN, 2 plasmas, Power sword on Champ, Boon and VOTLW comes out at 325 points(I am not sold on the Fearless Icon). I don't know about you but I consider that a steal. 10 Plague Marines with 2 plasmas, Power weapon, gift of mutation and VOTLR is 305.
Now it all comes down to if you prefer quantity over quality. In a game where you want as many troops as possible, the CSM would be the better choice as they are almost as durable as PM but have 50% more models. Is FnP and poisoned attacks beat larger units? Of Course with Epidemius' tally PM becomes a no brainer as the FnP on a 3+ can more than make up for the increased price.
Also I do know that if the Plague Zombies get FAQ'd to be larger than 10 models, you will see a lot more Typhus lead armies with hordes of cheap 35 model units with FnP, Fear and Fearless. They will become undercosted for their ability to sit on an objective and shrug off most small arms fire and most CC attacks.
I assume you mean 225 points not 325 for the CSM.
fearless is good, and they dont have it. FNP is good and they dont have it. Posioned ccw are good and they dont have them. Blight grenades, ehh you get the idea. Plague marines are expensive, but they get a lot of stuff.
I assume you mean 225 points not 325 for the CSM.
fearless is good, and they dont have it. FNP is good and they dont have it. Posioned ccw are good and they dont have them. Blight grenades, ehh you get the idea. Plague marines are expensive, but they get a lot of stuff.
I assume you mean 225 points not 325 for the CSM.
fearless is good, and they dont have it. FNP is good and they dont have it. Posioned ccw are good and they dont have them. Blight grenades, ehh you get the idea. Plague marines are expensive, but they get a lot of stuff.
L0rdF1end wrote: I've been thinking about Chaos quite a bit over the last week. You guys have got some of the same thoughts that came to me in this thread.
What I'm not seeing here is anything on Allies.
What could we look to take advantage of?
IG -
More Autocannons and a Vendetta?
Daemons -
Flamers/Screamers? Pavane of Slaanesh?
What else do we have...
Orks and Drak Eldar i think, i don't have my brb with me.
Has anyone thought about Allies and what they can bring to the table?
Allies for CSM:
-:: Chaos Space Marines ::-
Black Templars: Come the Apocalypse
Blood Angels: Come the Apocalypse
Chaos Daemons: Battle Brothers
Chaos Space Marines: N/A
Dark Angels: Come the Apocalypse
Dark Eldar: Desperate Allies
Eldar: Come the Apocalypse
Grey Knights: Come the Apocalypse
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience
Necrons: Allies of convenience
Orks: Allies of convenience
Sisters of Battle: Come the Apocalypse
Space Marines: Come the Apocalypse
Space Wolves: Come the Apocalypse
Tau Empire: Allies of convenience
Tyranids: Come the Apocalypse
L0rdF1end wrote: I've been thinking about Chaos quite a bit over the last week. You guys have got some of the same thoughts that came to me in this thread.
What I'm not seeing here is anything on Allies.
What could we look to take advantage of?
IG -
More Autocannons and a Vendetta?
Daemons -
Flamers/Screamers? Pavane of Slaanesh?
What else do we have...
Orks and Drak Eldar i think, i don't have my brb with me.
Has anyone thought about Allies and what they can bring to the table?
I'm running a 2k Black Legion army led by Abaddon in friendly games. It includes a unit of 4 flamers which come at the basement bargain price of 92 points. For a unit that can teleport & alpha strike high priority targets, and almost always kill them outright, it's a great unit.
I also run Masque with her triple-Pavane in combination with 2x2 Obliterators. MEq and Terminators, beware. She became instantly superior to all previous renditions of lash with the advent of Deny the Witch... because guess what? It's not a psychic power, so you don't get to deny squat. Just hit them on her nice BS 5 and group those suckaz up for the template / blast weapons. She also has a 3+ invul save which most people don't realize.
The cheesiest thing I've noticed in the codex so far is how broken it will be in conjunction with Tally of Pestilence / Epidemius. I have a 2k list that has every single unit (save one) with MoN, spends a lean 185 pts on Epi and a bodyguard of 5 plagues. It carries 3 full squads of plague marines, a dakka havoc squad, 2x2 oblits, heldrake, ML 3 sorcerer and a chaos lord in a bike squad with the Black Mace. Every champion has a Powermaul.
All of my troops will have Hatred (Space Marines) and reroll attacks in CC. They'll also gain Noxious Touch, and reroll wounds on anything T4 or lower.
They'll also be T5 with 3+ armor / 5+ FnP.. which then becomes 3+ FnP (stormshield save against anything that's not Str 10, gogo).
Aaannndd they'll have ignores-armor save bolters and CC attacks. Obliterators that can throw down Str 6 ignores armor assault cannons, or flamers. Troops that can wipe out entire units with rapid fire because they ignore armor. That perform better in CC than Assault Terminators.
Against anyone, this list would be mean. Against Space Marines through VotlW, it will be broken.
Funny, I've recently designed a very similar Nurgle list, except the bike squad was lead by a sorcerer with the brand (great way to kill lots of stuff quickly to get that count up), and Typhus held it down with a few units of zombies to act as chaff in the first few turns or hold home objectives, or even die in droves to the Destroyer Hive get the count up in a hurry.
The rest of the list is pretty much the same, except I have only 2 squads of plague marines and a unit of beasts with mon.
Omegus wrote: Funny, I've recently designed a very similar Nurgle list, except the bike squad was lead by a sorcerer with the brand (great way to kill lots of stuff quickly to get that count up), and Typhus held it down with a few units of zombies to act as chaff in the first few turns or hold home objectives, or even die in droves to the Destroyer Hive get the count up in a hurry.
The rest of the list is pretty much the same, except I have only 2 squads of plague marines and a unit of beasts with mon.
Why power mauls?
+2 STR, no I mod. After enough kills they'll be ignoring armor so the AP4 will cease to matter soon enough. So basically you'll be able to walk up to a HT & carve through it (assuming it doesn't have Bone Swords of course!)
And yes Kevlar, The Masque can split fire. If she can't then the last Daemons player I played against cheated me, lol.
And, back to the OP - WHY DO YOU WANT CHEESE? For years people have been complaining about power creep, SW, BA, IG & (more recently) GK & Newcrons. Now, we finally get something resembling a balanced codex (if quite bland in some area's unfortunately) & immediately people start looking for 'the cheeze pls'. Now, I'm not sure if the OP is asking this because they want this, or because they want to look out for it, or for some other reason, but my question is WHY? I'm thoroughly hoping that we can finally stop this outrageous out of control power creep that we've seen over the last 4 codecies (I leave out DE as they were actually pretty well balanced, but got a rough kick by 6th ed).
Unfortunately, I don't see our codex being on the extreme power level of GK or 'Crons, but thankfully GK took a (small) hit by 6th as well, but 'Crons will still be the top of the pile for some time - possibly for the better part of 6th ed depending. Will we be able to compete? Yes. Is our codex everything everyone wanted? No, but they never will be.
Lets leave the cheese where it's supposed to be - on sandwiches & pizza.
Omegus wrote: Funny, I've recently designed a very similar Nurgle list, except the bike squad was lead by a sorcerer with the brand (great way to kill lots of stuff quickly to get that count up), and Typhus held it down with a few units of zombies to act as chaff in the first few turns or hold home objectives, or even die in droves to the Destroyer Hive get the count up in a hurry.
The rest of the list is pretty much the same, except I have only 2 squads of plague marines and a unit of beasts with mon.
Why power mauls?
As Vryce mentioned, powermauls will become good and beasty once I hit 20 on the Tally and ignore armor. With Str 6 wielders at I3 that have 2+ poison, they reroll wounds against anything T6 and under.. which is going to be sick. I will win more than a few challenges.
Your comment is interesting, though. The Black Mace, cool as it seems, does seem like a fairly random (and expensive) piece of wargear. The Brand of Skalathrax may very well prove a more reliable and threatening weapon, especially with the mobility of a bikelord. Once the tally mounts it can even kill Terminators. Only problem is that it remains Str 4 throughout the game, so it won't wound quite as reliably. Hmm..
Allies for CSM:
Chaos Daemons: Battle Brothers
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience
Necrons: Allies of convenience
Orks: Allies of convenience
Tau Empire: Allies of convenience
Chaos Daemons is the natural choice. But don't get overboard with expensive HQs.
IG can add variety to each army.
Necrons can supplement with flyers (Overlord w/ CCB, Night Scythe with Warriors, Doom Scythe).
Orks can increase the tactical flexibility (more dakka: Lootas, more cc: Nobs, more troops: Boyz).
Tau can provide decent fire support.
lunarman wrote: As good as the Tally is I wouldn't buy the models just yet. I fully expect it will be nerfed as soon as the next daemons codex comes out :(
the next codex will undoubtably not have the tally at all. when is the next codex coming out?
Thing about the tally is all you have to do is kill Epidemius and it all stops. It also doesn't start until he is on the table, so if you get the wrong wave and reserve rolls fail you your whole army plan is out the window. And then there's the two Dreadknights which make the whole thing pointless
Seeing the mention of Necron allies above did give me a cool idea for a Dark Mechanicus army, with Dark Servitors in place of the Necrons.
Thing about the tally is all you have to do is kill Epidemius and it all stops. It also doesn't start until he is on the table, so if you get the wrong wave and reserve rolls fail you your whole army plan is out the window. And then there's the two Dreadknights which make the whole thing pointless .
He does for sure have problems and even if you pull it off with the above situations going your way you could easily loose track of the game plan for the mission you should be playing.
I think it makes a very nice fluff list but far from competative.
Allies I think is key for Chaos to be competative right now.
Make use of those cheap flamers and screamers or a Vendetta. Really depends on what you have in your core chaos build as to what you need to add in through allies.
Im going to be trying IG and Daemons for now. Its certainly nice to be able to filed slightly different support elements by using allies.
The Chaos codex alone just doesn't feel strong enough to compete alone against Daemons/Necrons.
L0rdF1end wrote:Allies I think is key for Chaos to be competative right now.
Make use of those cheap flamers and screamers or a Vendetta. Really depends on what you have in your core chaos build as to what you need to add in through allies.
I disagree entirely; it's not that simple. The thing about Chaos is there are a lot of diverse builds to compete with. Some of them need allies, others don't. In my Slaanesh and Black Legion lists I feel no need for allies (though the Pavane thing is something I will try for Slaanesh). Nurgle doesn't need them but gets better with them. Tzeentch absolutely needs them. Khorne just needs new base rules for the game. And of course if you are not playing to a theme you have to pick of it all.
The most cheese I can think of is camping Havocs behind/in an Aegis Defense Line or Bastion with a quad gun, giving them missile launchers(or autocannons) and the champion gift of mutation for the hope of extra BS or survivability and creating a 48" death zone. I'm waiting until then next daemon codex comes out but i'm thinking of running a list like this:
1500:
The Masque (100)
The Blue Scribes (130)
6 Fiends (180)
5 Flamers (185)
Soul Grinder w/ Phlegm (160)
6 Pink Horrors, upgrade 1 to Changeling (107)
6 daemonettes w/ icon (103)
965
Allies:
Lucius (165)
10 Cultists (50)
10 Cultists (50)
6 Havocs, 4 w/ missile launchers and GoM (168)
433
Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun
100
1750:
Add Heldrake (170)
Add 6 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters (130)
Take away one cultists (-50)
1850:
Noise Marines to 10 w/ Blast Master and Doom Siren (225)
2000:
Soul Grinder w/ phlegm upgrade (160)
Take off Mutation from Havocs (-10)
That seems pretty cheesy to me. I don't think there's a lot of cheese in the CSM codex it's more in their ability to offer things to armies that they don't normally have. Daemons and IG both benefit from the armor saves but the CSM can't hit nearly as hard as the Fiends or Flamers do and the dakka of the IG is hard to beat. Either way I think people are gonna take a serious look at allies now.
Also I do know that if the Plague Zombies get FAQ'd to be larger than 10 models, you will see a lot more Typhus lead armies with hordes of cheap 35 model units with FnP, Fear and Fearless. They will become undercosted for their ability to sit on an objective and shrug off most small arms fire and most CC attacks.
Why can't you have more than 10 cultists in a squad that becomes zombies when the game starts due to Typhus? Guess I need to read my codex again...
There is much discussion, but it is more or less people complaining that it is not what they expected. Typhus special rule says the cultists may not purchase any options...the very first option to purchase (in the cultist army entry) is additional unit members. So ten bare bones cultists per zombie squad.
Allies for CSM:
Chaos Daemons: Battle Brothers
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience
Necrons: Allies of convenience
Orks: Allies of convenience
Tau Empire: Allies of convenience
Chaos Daemons is the natural choice. But don't get overboard with expensive HQs.
IG can add variety to each army.
Necrons can supplement with flyers (Overlord w/ CCB, Night Scythe with Warriors, Doom Scythe).
Orks can increase the tactical flexibility (more dakka: Lootas, more cc: Nobs, more troops: Boyz).
Tau can provide decent fire support.
I dunno, I'm pretty happy with a Bloodthirster trompin' around smashing stuff and soaking fire so far, pretty effective as the required "Allies Tax" goes (heck, one of the main reasons for me to take the Demons Allies), but I can see some choices not being as worthwhile.
Played against Chaos tonight with my White Scars and lost narrowly in Purge. Things that stood out to me when seeing things from the other side of the table; I5 makes a big deal in combat against Marines, Boons are underestimated, Heldrakes and Forgefiends are rather terrifying, Dirge Casters are really effective.
Yep, I would definately be interested in boons on every unit but plaguemarines. It is just that a good chunk of the results that you would want for them, they already have. I just found myself rolling results they already had most of the time.
Also, although it is kind of lame, you can use the helldrake to snipe as well. Since all weapons have a 45 degree arc and you can only remove models from LOS, you can get close enough to a unit so that the guys in front can not be allocated wounds(Out of LOS) however the template can still be placed so that they are hit to get the maximum number of people under the template as possible. It can be placed out of LOS, just can only hurt people in LOS. I came to this realization as I was about to start making 45 degree markers for my fliers so that I can see how far away they have to be to see a model to shoot.
The Slaaneshi mount gives acute senses and outflank, which can synergize with a cheap unit of slaanesh bikers for t5 i5 3/5++/5+FNP outflanking unit. That from the side, 2 full units of beast, all less than one deathstar unit.
And has anyone mentioned the diiiiirt cheap predators? Cause all that above + 3 (!) predators can fit in 1250 pt. game and leave 200-300 pts for troops. That can Noise marines.
Slaanesh lord on steed, biker retinue with FNP 3 preds with Lascannon sides
10 spawn
250-350 for troops.
If you take advantage of ALL of the good bang-for-buck units, the new chaos dex can DOMINATE smaller point games. Now at 2000+ the relative simplicity and huge competition for HS basically nueter the benefits, but between 750-1500 I think Chaos is one of the better options out right now. Certainly beats the GK at such small points.
My Khorne CSM army with Demons allies has won 2 of 2 games thus far, totally owed to my Juggernaut Lord, and he allied Bloodthirster/Khorne Demon Prince (the fire support of ML Havocs and a Forgefiend helps a lot, too). Between seemingly broken FMC rules and the Lord's insane threat distance, they pretty much rush forward and kill stuff, survive a turn because of challenges, either issued or accepted, and then get to assault again my next turn. It seems to work well once you infiltrate an ADL with a big scary assault character - you can take a unit one at a time.
And yeah, I'm taking the Demons codex DP as he's a lot cheaper for what he does, and EW. Also, he's a heavy, meaning a scoring unit in 1/6 missions!
Godless-Mimicry wrote: 250-350pts isn't nearly enough points for a decent Troop selection. Also so far in my experiences deploying the Bikes is better than outflanking them.
Just thinking Huron is kind of a steal, at 160 points you get a tough warlord, and, will at least get to infiltrate one infantry unit, possibly three.
I was thinking terminators are infantry, so why not infiltrate ten of them, and kit that squad appropriately (namely combi plas, and a mark, can't decide on a mark yet, it really is a toss up, since they are rather slow, probably kit them out out for survivability, like MoT or MoN or MoS + Icon to get FNP)
And actually, because those units gain the infiltrate rule, you could have a 5 man squad, infiltrating in a landraider instead. hopefully the land raider lives the first turn, and bang, second turn assault termies all in the thick of things.
And of course if you can infiltrate three units through a good die roll, now that initial "these guys will always be infiltrating" squad, will have some sweet support.
Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
MoT is dirt cheap on chaos spawn, and 6 of them is a pretty good escort.
Leth wrote: but its pretty useless on them as well.
Yep, huge difference between a MON spawn and a MOT spawn getting hit with a demolisher cannon. MON you lose two wounds on one spawn. MOT you lose 6 wounds and two whole models.
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
MoT is dirt cheap on chaos spawn, and 6 of them is a pretty good escort.
Spawns can only be taken in units of 5 or less.
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
Well, I'll run a Lord on bike and a Sorcerer in terminator armor going with Termies.
With the MoS, I'll take units of 6.
Chaos Lord - Mark of Nurgle, Chaos Bike, Pair of Lightning Claws, Melta Bombs, Sigil of Corruption - Total 162
Chaos Lord - Mark of Tzeentch, Terminator Armor, Sigil of Corruption, Pair of Lightning Claws - Total 172.
Having the lord on bike run with Nurgle Bikers, and have the Tzeentch Lord run with Termies...
Though I've been giving thought to the making the Tzeentch Lord a Sorcerer. I will see though...
The biggest question for the Tzeentch is, is the 40 points worth it for the 2+ save, because I can get him to have a 3++ but keep him in power armor...
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
MoT is dirt cheap on chaos spawn, and 6 of them is a pretty good escort.
Do spawn have a 5++? I thought they werent actually daemons so MoT only gives them a 6++
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
MoT is dirt cheap on chaos spawn, and 6 of them is a pretty good escort.
Do spawn have a 5++? I thought they werent actually daemons so MoT only gives them a 6++
You are correct, though I don't see where anybody said otherwise.
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
MoT is dirt cheap on chaos spawn, and 6 of them is a pretty good escort.
Do spawn have a 5++? I thought they werent actually daemons so MoT only gives them a 6++
You are correct, though I don't see where anybody said otherwise.
I was just wondering why you would ever give them MoT in the first place
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
MoT is dirt cheap on chaos spawn, and 6 of them is a pretty good escort.
Do spawn have a 5++? I thought they werent actually daemons so MoT only gives them a 6++
You are correct, though I don't see where anybody said otherwise.
I was just wondering why you would ever give them MoT in the first place
Or right sorry, I thought you were correcting someone.
You are right, it seems silly to give MoT to anything that doesn't already have an invul. save.
I just picked up two juggernaught Chaos Lords on EBAY, and I'm curious as to your opinions on these beasts. I think they're actually a relatively economical purchase, and the Lord can join a bike or jumppack unit turn one to get into position for a turn two assault. Has anyone tried this? I don't know if it qualifies as cheese, but here is my expected loadout:
Chaos Lord - MoK, Juggernaught, Sigil of Corruption, Axe of Blind Fury - 175
I'm thinking about trying to run 2 in a 1750, giving the other one the Murder Sword instead of the Axe. and each with a small unit of bikes or raptors for ablative wounds turn 1 and 2 (as well as some melta support)
Limbo wrote: Dunno if someone already suggested this, but a Sorcerer with Sigil of of Corruption, MoT on a bike. 120 points for a T5, 3++ HQ, with plenty of room for mastrey levels and wargear-
The only problem there is you'd have to run your bikers with MoT or unmarked and those are underwhelming options compared to nurgle or slaanesh.
If I was going with a Tzeench sorcerer I'd run him on a jetbike.
MoT is dirt cheap on chaos spawn, and 6 of them is a pretty good escort.
Do spawn have a 5++? I thought they werent actually daemons so MoT only gives them a 6++
You are correct, though I don't see where anybody said otherwise.
I was just wondering why you would ever give them MoT in the first place
Or right sorry, I thought you were correcting someone.
You are right, it seems silly to give MoT to anything that doesn't already have an invul. save.
The context of the original question was where to put a mot sorcerer or lord that is on a disc. Mon would stop the disc rider from joining the unit so the usual suggestion isn't useful in this case. Thinking about it more an unmarked unit is probably best.
Stolen from the YMDC question, as long as we're really looking for cheese:
C:CSM w/ C:CDaemons as allies
Allies:
Epidemius
5-9 man escort, depending on how safe you want him
C:CSM:
Typhus
Unit of 35 cultists, not zombies
Aegis Defence Line, Quad Gun
Units of MoN Bikers and Plague Marines for the remaining points--maybe fill in a few other units to close gaps, like Heldrakes or Flak Havocs
Turn 1:
Aim for a 3+ to get Epidemius in. No, you don't automatically get him and his unit in--on a 1 or 2 you get the empty set.
Have Typhus joined to the cultists. Move them up and charge the quad qun (which you should have placed 9-10" in front of your lines, which I believe is legal). Have cultists attack regularly (they can't hurt the gun), and have Typhus use his Large Blast to replace his CCAttacks. You should be able to hit nearly all or all of the cultists, because they consolidate in around Typhus and the gun. If you hit 30 of the cultists (hoping for 35), you'll kill 20 of them on average.
Turn 2:
The Tallyman counts up and you get all the benefits. Your entire army is ludicrously overpowered, with your opponent never getting armor saves, rerollable 2+ to wound in CC, and 3+ Feel No Pain's.
Common questions:
Epidemius does not specify enemy
You can charge your own fortifications; they are considered to be neither players model while unmanned.
If none of this is wrong I think it is VERY clearly the most overpowered thing in the codex.
With that said--it is undeniably cheese and unintended, although I think it's pretty fluffy.
This combo is not even remotely new, and to be honest not as filthy as it is given credit for, and the counters to it and fairly simple; kill Epidemius. Once he is gone then that's it for the whole strategy. There's also the case of him not getting the first wave and fluffing reserve rolls. It also hinges on getting the first turn, which is only a 50/50 shot. It also hinges on the opponent and/or TO agreeing that you can charge your own gun.
I don't think it changes much still; Helbrutes will still be outclassed, Terminators will still depend on list type, and Khorne Lords will still be better than Daemon Princes. The Zombies are the only ones that really gained from this one.
Well, at the moment I tend to plasma guns, since we will see less tanks in the 6th while MCs are still alive and kicking. You can fire plasma and still charge in the same round, so no difference here.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Meltas, they aren't just for tanks, instant death is also a good use.
That's what I'm thinking too. The other thing is that due to challenges, I have very few power fists in my units and I kind of feel like I need a little bit of anti heavy vehicles.
Meade wrote: I'm really expecting the new dragons and dinobots to be cheese once people get to play with them and find the best combos. I think people are overlooking the daemonforge ability and those invul saves, IWND are great. Odds are that one of those things works right in the game.
The dragon flamer is a real killer. Pair it up with some deepstriking daemons with pavane, to get the whole squad in formation.. and maybe a bonus vehicle. Against other flyers it is more resilient than they are, but sadly getting off ~2 S8 shots isn't scary for other AV12 fliers. But being able to re-roll those pens, even once per game, can make a difference in a dogfight.
Seeing I hate both of the new models, I will not be using them. For me, VoTLW is awesome. Another is the reduction in cost for havocs... now if I could only purchase 8 autocannons instead of 50$ for forgecrap mix-and-match. 115 pts for 4 autocannons is pretty darn cheap. Combined that with 290 for 20 CSM with VoTLW and you can go to town.... 4 troops for 1160 add 3 havocs for 345 and we have a nice 95 marine base for an 1850 army.
You can generally get CSM Autocannons / Reaper Autocannons for £1-3 each from Bitz sellers.
Alternatively, you could do what I'm going to be doing, and using some Instamold and Greenstuff (or more likely I'll pick up some Milliput) with a paperclip core and make a few copies of certain hard-to-get bitz if I need to. That said, there won't likely be more than 1-3 things I need to duplicate anyway....
I ran plasmas on my bikes for about a month. Too many deaths to Gets Hot. 40 point models killing themselves is never fun. Swapped them out for meltas and never once had to worry about the bike killing itself again, that pretty much sealed the deal for me.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Though not a cheap, I've been sticking the barrel from the Heldrake's Autocannon onto a Heavy Bolter and it looks pretty bad ass.
There will probably be plenty of those bits on auction sites, given that the flamer seems to be better for the Helldrake.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: Though not a cheap, I've been sticking the barrel from the Heldrake's Autocannon onto a Heavy Bolter and it looks pretty bad ass.
There will probably be plenty of those bits on auction sites, given that the flamer seems to be better for the Helldrake.
Hell i got two of them im not usin. I just combined my heavybolters with long barrels.
Stuck on squadbsizes for zombies. Using a unit as escort for my sorcerer. Think a unit of 21 is fine. Plenty of fearless wounds and should be able to survive to midfield objectives
When I get my second Forgefiend, I'm going to use the Hades Autocannons and put them on tripods, putting a Havoc behind each gun. A bit complicated, but it should look pretty damn intimidating when done. I guess that's another option to make the squad.
Not sure what other HQ i would use for the second slot.
Who says you need another HQ though? In 6th more bodies is usually better, and Typhus is already giving you a beat stick and a psyker. Still, there's always Epidemius.
Huuumm. Good point, I have the FW Sorcerer so wanted to use him, I also think the nurgle powers can be quite powerful. Not sure what else to use him as though.
Well, at the moment I tend to plasma guns, since we will see less tanks in the 6th while MCs are still alive and kicking. You can fire plasma and still charge in the same round, so no difference here.
Was just skimming the tactics section before an apoc game I've got coming when I spotted this, I thought we couldn't fire a plasma and charge as it's a rapid fire weapon. Any model that fires a rapid fire weapon in the shooting phase can't assault in the ensuing assault phase. I'd be very happy to be corrected though!
Leth wrote: Huuumm. Good point, I have the FW Sorcerer so wanted to use him, I also think the nurgle powers can be quite powerful. Not sure what else to use him as though.
If it is just an infantry model he could easily sub as an Aspiring Champion somewhere. Say he is Typhus' second in combat leading his elite bodyguard or something like that.
Since I am working on making a palaquin for him I was thinking of using him as an epidemius. He would also make a great dark apostle. The problem is I don't like the plaguebearer models and so would have to find something else to use as them. I was also going to use the mounted nurgle lord as my epidemius and maybe try to find something in the warriors of chaos line.
Either way I was thinking Epidemius and a unit of 13 plaguebearers as my daemon allies. Short and sweet. Leaves most of my points for chaos.
Wish the cultist models would work as plague bearers.......
Ghouls make good enough Plaguebearers. Or if you want a cool theme, use Mantic Zombies for your Plague Zombies, and Mantic Ghouls for your Plaguebearers. Or vice versa.
so far my cheese is this
A fully loaded daemon prince
Mark of nurgle prince
Burning brand
Wings
Power Armour
Palenquin of nurgle
Spell familiar
combat familiar
3 mastery levels
all for 365 points
Sure he is a ton of points but in all my games he single handedly wipes squads
firl21 wrote: so far my cheese is this
A fully loaded daemon prince
Mark of nurgle prince
Burning brand
Wings
Power Armour
Palenquin of nurgle
Spell familiar
combat familiar
3 mastery levels
all for 365 points
Sure he is a ton of points but in all my games he single handedly wipes squads
A Daemon Prince of Nurgle cannot take a Palanquin, being neither a Lord nor Sorcerer, and remember he doesn't have "the mark of Nurgle" he is a daemon of Nurgle, being slow and purposeful and shrouded, not having +1 toughness.
firl21 wrote: so far my cheese is this
A fully loaded daemon prince
Mark of nurgle prince
Burning brand
Wings
Power Armour
Palenquin of nurgle
Spell familiar
combat familiar
3 mastery levels
all for 365 points
Sure he is a ton of points but in all my games he single handedly wipes squads
As pointed out, he is illegal, but all that being said, he's also not that cheesy; it's just your standard scary monster.
firl21 wrote: so far my cheese is this
A fully loaded daemon prince
Mark of nurgle prince
Burning brand
Wings
Power Armour
Palenquin of nurgle
Spell familiar
combat familiar
3 mastery levels
all for 365 points
Sure he is a ton of points but in all my games he single handedly wipes squads
As pointed out, he is illegal, but all that being said, he's also not that cheesy; it's just your standard scary monster.
that can be ID by one GK strike squad with a hammer.
Ovion wrote: I'm assuming the logical unit to use for Plague Zombies would be WHFB Vampire Counts Zombies? (At least what I was intending to use)
Mantic ones are same scale, cheaper, and much nicer looking. The GW ones have not aged well at all, no pun intended.
This, basically. I'm not a big fan of Mantic, but their zombies are much better than the 10+ year old GW ones. If you're worried about being able to use them in a GW store, convert them with Imperial Guard parts or something.
Omegus wrote: Being susceptible to ID is not looking at a unit in a vacuum, it is a serious drawback for such an expensive model.
Yes that is true but that has been pointed out to death. However outside of braodsides it is usually quite easy to either A.Avoid that unit and/or B. Take it out with the rest of your army. Knowing that you have A hammer in said unit if it is on the justicar Challenge, no longer a problem. Next if it is not, still challenge to lower the number of attacks received.
Second a hammer is going to have 1-2 attacks needing 5s to hit, 2s to wound and then getting through a 5+ invul
1/3 of an attack hits, 5/6ths wound and then 2/3s make it through the invul save. So that is 18.5% per attack to get a wound on the daemon prince. Not good odds.
That is also assuming, like I said before, that he has not wiped out the unit with the number of attacks he has as well as a the torrent Ap3 flamer.
You cant look at a unit like this in a vacuum outside the rest of a list. If I had a model I wanted to use for one I would run a nurgle Daemon prince all day. Throw it behind an Aegis BAMN 2+ cover save all the time.
Even then a lot of the instant death issues I see can be aided by using correct terrain.
One may argue well of course Grey Knights are going to gank him, but that's only one army; thing is for a TAC list you can be sure you are going to face plenty of Grey Knights, and serving them up Slay the Warlord on a silver platter like that ain't too great, especially when you can just take the much better and much cheaper Lord.
Daemon Princes may have their places in certain armies, but they are far and few between.
Tally of Pestilence lists are pretty broken. Everything in my army has MoN and, with the help of neat things like the Brand and cheap havocs / awesomer Obliterators.. usually have 20 models down on Turn 1.
Boneblade wrote:Tally of Pestilence lists are pretty broken. Everything in my army has MoN and, with the help of neat things like the Brand and cheap havocs / awesomer Obliterators.. usually have 20 models down on Turn 1.
If you have 20 models down in turn 1 on a regular basis then your opponent's should stop playing this game as they are clearly not cut out for it. It's quite easy to delay the tally for an opponent with a quarter of a brain for 40k, and even at that, killing 20 models in turn 1 is incredibly difficult for Chaos; that Brand won't be in range turn 1, those Obliterators' Plasma Cannons may not be in range or may face a spread out enemy, and Havocs are still only AP4.
As for the army being cheesy, it is quite powerful, but to call it cheesy might be jumping the gun a bit. It relies on Epidemius staying alive for the whole game, coming down on turn 1, not facing Grey Knights, in part getting into combat, etc. There are a fair few variables, and though most are more likely to go your way than not, it is still very easy for it to all go to hell, as is always the case with gimmick lists.
Yes, there is a very simple answer to Tally lists. Kill Epidemius.
However, when the model and his escort are hidden behind or inside a ruin and out of LoS, it becomes challenging for most of my opponents to even try and bring them down. Just in the last game I played the guy deployed Harker and a squad of demopack / flamer Vets in outflank with the idea of killing Epidemius' squad.
It took them a turn to try and get into position.
My Heldrake melted the squad.
Epidemius sat safely on his objective. The rest of the IG gunline had zero LoS. Maybe Warpquake or Dreadknights would be great ways to engage him, but no matter what situation you consider, Epidemius being on the table forces people to play a certain way (by throwing everything at him).
And even in the absence of Epidemius, what I lose is a squad of objective holders and a cool rule. The other 1815 points of my army are still Chaos Space Marines, and if you ignore them or underestimate them that's your sad mistake. Not like losing Epidemius causes my whole Nurgle list to Phase Out.
Boneblade wrote:However, when the model and his escort are hidden behind or inside a ruin and out of LoS, it becomes challenging for most of my opponents to even try and bring them down. Just in the last game I played the guy deployed Harker and a squad of demopack / flamer Vets in outflank with the idea of killing Epidemius' squad.
'When' being the operative term here. You may not have such terrain on your side, or on the board at all; 50% chance you get no say on that. Then there's Deep Strike scatter which may take him away rom that, and moving 6" with no run may take awhile.
As for the IG reference, it seems more like you are getting a little worked up on the tally's ability because your opponent didn't play correctly to handle it; it is silly to think that Vet unit had a chance of taking out Epidemius as well as the Plaguebearers he had to go through first. Then again, that's only how your post makes it look, but it's just as likely that that is not the case, so I won't assume too much on that. Off topic: tell him to take Manticores next time.
Boneblade wrote:And even in the absence of Epidemius, what I lose is a squad of objective holders and a cool rule. The other 1815 points of my army are still Chaos Space Marines, and if you ignore them or underestimate them that's your sad mistake. Not like losing Epidemius causes my whole Nurgle list to Phase Out.
It's not such a simple transition. To make the list really work you buy specific units to maximise the effect of the tally, meaning when you lose Epidemius you don't just have a normal list again, you have a normal list that is likely lacking in some key area because with the tally that area was not as important. And besides, the whole point is people are putting the tally out there as a cheese list, so if that were true losing the tally makes your list's power drop a tonne.
For the record also so you don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the tally is a bad list, and it is definitely one of the best Chaos ones out there, I just don't think it's the cheese people are calling it.
Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
every dragon was a dead squad almost every turn in my games, i ran two one would fly on, VS a transport and go burn something deep field (like havocs) and the other would burn whatever came out of the transport. They're really nasty and are alot harder to kill than they seem from first glance.
Kevlar wrote: Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
Kevlar wrote: Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Kevlar wrote: Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Problem is this series of events follows a pattern of bias assumptions; it assumes you will get your preferred wave (same problem the tally has itself and is just as likely to happen to either list, yet it assumes the Flamers will get the drop every time), it assumes you will get a decent scatter (or lack thereof), and most importantly it assumes the opponent will be a moron and clump his Plaguebearers together to give you all those hits. Then when you try to negate that last point with Pavane, you are doubling up the first two points possibly in order to get the Masque in.
All and all, that's an unlikely set of circumstances, and they can be made further so with ease, e.g. put Zombies around the area of the Plaguebearers so even on a good scatter the Flamers can't drop in range of them. This also gimps the Masque as she's going to have a tough time moving all of those bodies around. And it only takes that one turn of failure and those frail units can be dealt with.
In the end this is putting those units in a vacuum though, and when you add full armies into the mix, it makes it much more difficult for the Flamers to pull off.
Similarly to earlier, don't underestimate the tally either, it is still tough to take out, even for Flamers.
After my game today I was thinking a large unit of cultists with a dark apostle could be fun. Give them all CC weapons and throw in a flamer or two.
Then have the zombies for objective sitting.
Or having zombies with hatred could also be fun. It was entertaining seeing my zombie leader issuing a challenge. I was hoping he would kill him, so I got a roll on the chart. Only roll I got turned my Sorcerer into a Daemon Prince of Nurgle. Against an army without strength 10 he was just mowing through dudes.
Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
Spoiler:
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
Spoiler:
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Spoiler:
Problem is this series of events follows a pattern of bias assumptions; it assumes you will get your preferred wave (same problem the tally has itself and is just as likely to happen to either list, yet it assumes the Flamers will get the drop every time), it assumes you will get a decent scatter (or lack thereof), and most importantly it assumes the opponent will be a moron and clump his Plaguebearers together to give you all those hits. Then when you try to negate that last point with Pavane, you are doubling up the first two points possibly in order to get the Masque in.
All and all, that's an unlikely set of circumstances, and they can be made further so with ease, e.g. put Zombies around the area of the Plaguebearers so even on a good scatter the Flamers can't drop in range of them. This also gimps the Masque as she's going to have a tough time moving all of those bodies around. And it only takes that one turn of failure and those frail units can be dealt with.
In the end this is putting those units in a vacuum though, and when you add full armies into the mix, it makes it much more difficult for the Flamers to pull off.
Similarly to earlier, don't underestimate the tally either, it is still tough to take out, even for Flamers.
I would assume, putting some flamers in each wave would guarantee some getting there in the first wave, which is the bonus of multiple squads, the negative for Epi is he is the only model that can do a thing.
i.e. 1 squad in one wave, 2 in the other.
Thing is one of the best anti tally lists is another chaos list with flamers of tzeentch and pavane. And that list is pretty powerful on its own without a cheap gimmick.
Spoiler:
How do Flamers counter it? If the whole army gets FNP then it actually ends up countering the Flamers, as they have no way to get through it.
Spoiler:
They are going to deepstrike long before you get FNP 3+, and they are going to do enough hits to vaporize the unit. Say a unit of 10 plague bearers. With a decent deepstrike you are going to get 50 hits on that unit, 25 wounds, 11 dead after saves. That is the whole unit gone. And that is only a single unit of 5 flamers. Imagine what a Daemon list with 27 of them is going to do.
Spoiler:
Problem is this series of events follows a pattern of bias assumptions; it assumes you will get your preferred wave (same problem the tally has itself and is just as likely to happen to either list, yet it assumes the Flamers will get the drop every time), it assumes you will get a decent scatter (or lack thereof), and most importantly it assumes the opponent will be a moron and clump his Plaguebearers together to give you all those hits. Then when you try to negate that last point with Pavane, you are doubling up the first two points possibly in order to get the Masque in.
All and all, that's an unlikely set of circumstances, and they can be made further so with ease, e.g. put Zombies around the area of the Plaguebearers so even on a good scatter the Flamers can't drop in range of them. This also gimps the Masque as she's going to have a tough time moving all of those bodies around. And it only takes that one turn of failure and those frail units can be dealt with.
In the end this is putting those units in a vacuum though, and when you add full armies into the mix, it makes it much more difficult for the Flamers to pull off.
Similarly to earlier, don't underestimate the tally either, it is still tough to take out, even for Flamers.
I would assume, putting some flamers in each wave would guarantee some getting there in the first wave, which is the bonus of multiple squads, the negative for Epi is he is the only model that can do a thing.
i.e. 1 squad in one wave, 2 in the other.
They're still not guaranteed any of the other variables though; I certainly don't see them as a hard counter to Epidemius.
I've heard of using Ahriman to infiltrate Ork shootas, have up to 90 Shootas infiltrate. Seems like it would put a serious dent in someone's plans. Even a single maxed Ork squad infiltrate would cause your opponent to focus a good amount of resources to get rid of them.
What about this. Load up a squad of assuault termies in a LR. Have ahriman as an hq. infiltrate em 18in away.
Move 6 in and disembark 6 forward. In shooting go flat out to be 6in away from the target unit. in assault assault with termies 6in with no overwatch due to dirge casters. Use this tactic vs any shooty army. Or infiltrate a some other large hate tech on turn 1.
They're still not guaranteed any of the other variables though; I certainly don't see them as a hard counter to Epidemius.
You can guarantee pavane easily enough, blue scribes in one wave, the masque in the other. So you can always put pavave + flamers in both waves. Screamers too just in case you need to add a few extra wounds with the turbo boost attack. And a couple phlegm grinders never hurt. Daemons can probably take out Epi easier than any other army. But then stuff like deathmarks exist too. Can't they use their ethereal intercept on Epidemus' wave even if he comes in turn 1?
firl21 wrote: What about this. Load up a squad of assuault termies in a LR. Have ahriman as an hq. infiltrate em 18in away.
Move 6 in and disembark 6 forward. In shooting go flat out to be 6in away from the target unit. in assault assault with termies 6in with no overwatch due to dirge casters. Use this tactic vs any shooty army. Or infiltrate a some other large hate tech on turn 1.
I believe you cannot assault if you deploy via Infiltrate first turn; and too bad. Otherwise, sound strategy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would work well for any shooting unit, though.
Gangrel767 wrote: Unless you go at the bottom of turn 1. As you can only not assault in the first player turn.
Right, outflank or deepstrike cannot assault the turn they arrive, but infiltrators can assault turn one if they go second.
... that is such a dumb rule that first player turn infiltrators cannot assault, but 2nd player turn infiltrators can. I'm guessing that was a typo ...
Gangrel767 wrote: Unless you go at the bottom of turn 1. As you can only not assault in the first player turn.
Right, outflank or deepstrike cannot assault the turn they arrive, but infiltrators can assault turn one if they go second.
... that is such a dumb rule that first player turn infiltrators cannot assault, but 2nd player turn infiltrators can. I'm guessing that was a typo ...
It's not. It gives an advantage to the second player to offset the alpha strike and first blood issues, and it allows the first turn player to respond to the potential incoming assault.
that I missed?
