I've not used them, but they seem to be reasonably well regarded, and located in the USA for those who worry about buying painting services from 'overseas'
NOTE: If you don't see a pledge that suits you they will make a custom one for you, so contact them
Why exactly does this campaign belong on Kickstarter? If i read the KS page right they're not really funding anything and are just using Kickstarter for publicity to offer their usual painting services.
Im also wondering if this campaign might be a breach of the KS guidelines, the below blurb is written in the Prohibited content section of the guideline.
Rewards not directly produced by the project or its creator (no offering things from the garage, repackaged existing products, weekends at the resort, etc)
While they might be painting the miniatures, the fact that they're just buying existing models from various manufacturers to use as rewards might be a problem for them.
This does seem to be a violation of Kickstarter guidelines.
How is "help us buy stock, so we can paint them later and sell them for profit" any different than the prohibited "help me buy a camera, so that I can take pictures and sell them for profit"?
And the rewards are all things that already exist, or versions of services that already exist. I can spend $350 to have them paint me an infinity starter set? How is that any different from what they are doing already?
I have seen their work first hand. A 2000$ project and it was horrible. yes..they are indeed full of themselves and will be voting with my wallet indeed.
Don't think Kickstarter is trying to enforce much. Hell, just look at Penny Arcades 500 Dollar Pledge Level (which sold out) and Blue Table is looking very reasonable again
I just read the Kickstarter guidelines, and I don't get peoples complaint.
BTP stated a clear goal with an end game. Acquire the resources to open a new branch of sales for the company. It's not under any of the prohibited causes.
Also as far as I can tell, this is an innovative idea. Does any other business out there have entire armies on hand that are built and painted, and ready for immediate shipping?
djones520 wrote: I just read the Kickstarter guidelines, and I don't get peoples complaint.
BTP stated a clear goal with an end game. Acquire the resources to open a new branch of sales for the company. It's not under any of the prohibited causes.
Per Kickstarter:
1) Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.
I honestly think that a Kickstarter to purchase stock for a new branch does not qualify as making a work of art, or a book, or an album, or a new product. It is a "fund my life" project, and not really any different than a "Kickstarter to buy stock to open my own game store" would be.
They're not starting a business. A new business model maybe. BTP is a long and well established business, miniature painting wise at least.
Honestly, I don't see it as being any differant then a company saying "fund my computer game development". There's been a ton of those. All it's doing is asking people to throw money at them so they can spit out a project to make money off of. How is this differant?
djones520 wrote: I just read the Kickstarter guidelines, and I don't get peoples complaint.
BTP stated a clear goal with an end game. Acquire the resources to open a new branch of sales for the company. It's not under any of the prohibited causes.
Per Kickstarter:
1) Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.
I honestly think that a Kickstarter to purchase stock for a new branch does not qualify as making a work of art, or a book, or an album, or a new product. It is a "fund my life" project, and not really any different than a "Kickstarter to buy stock to open my own game store" would be.
Yeah. But you know... that paragraph is in the "guidelines", not the terms of service.
And if taken literally, it sure as hell would've also disqualified, for example, Reaper Bones. Or DreadBall. Or Sedition Wars. They are all "start/expand business" Kickstarters. None of their stuff is intended to "end" with the Kickstarter. They all want to keep selling/expanding that.
Where is the difference between a miniature painting company kickstarting "to paint more miniatures" and a miniature making company like Reaper kickstarting "to make more miniatures"?
djones520 wrote: I just read the Kickstarter guidelines, and I don't get peoples complaint.
BTP stated a clear goal with an end game. Acquire the resources to open a new branch of sales for the company. It's not under any of the prohibited causes.
Per Kickstarter:
1) Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.
I honestly think that a Kickstarter to purchase stock for a new branch does not qualify as making a work of art, or a book, or an album, or a new product. It is a "fund my life" project, and not really any different than a "Kickstarter to buy stock to open my own game store" would be.
Yeah. But you know... that paragraph is in the "guidelines", not the terms of service.
And if taken literally, it sure as hell would've also disqualified, for example, Reaper Bones. Or DreadBall. Or Sedition Wars. They are all "start/expand business" Kickstarters. None of their stuff is intended to "end" with the Kickstarter. They all want to keep selling/expanding that.
Where is the difference between a painting company kickstarting "to paint more" and a miniature company like Reaper kickstarting "to make more miniatures"?
But all of them resulted in a finished product: new games, actual new models, etc.
That is different than "help us buy stock", at least that is how it appears to me.
But all of them resulted in a finished product: new games, actual new models, etc.
That is different than "help us buy stock", at least that is how it appears to me.
But I will quit taking this thread OT.
How so? Blue Table inputs miniatures and outputs painted miniatures. Reaper/Mantic/CMON inputs molds, plastic, design services and outputs unpainted miniatures.
Both fatten up their production with Kickstarter. Other than that, there's no difference I can see, other than Blue Table sitting behind Reaper in the value chain.
If you exclude business, you'd have to exclude both. If you include businesses, you have to include both.
Zweischneid wrote: And if taken literally, it sure as hell would've also disqualified, for example, Reaper Bones. Or DreadBall. Or Sedition Wars. They are all "start/expand business" Kickstarters. None of their stuff is intended to "end" with the Kickstarter. They all want to keep selling/expanding that.
Where is the difference between a miniature painting company kickstarting "to paint more miniatures" and a miniature making company like Reaper kickstarting "to make more miniatures"?
how about 'substantial start-up costs'?
there's actually a substantial number of models sales required for the other projects mentioned. this? not so much.
I like how they get around that with their 'having whole armies up for sale' pitch, though. it's cute. I see how this one is in the very deep, dark zone of the gray area, rather than just flat-out outside the guidelines.
but it's a long way from as clearly KS worthy as any of the other projects you mentioned.
either way, I don't mind - just won't be funding this
"substantial start-up costs' are not and never were a Kickstarter criteria however. Can't just make those up on the fly.
The Kickstarter guidelines/criteria/etc.. are (vaguely) (a) not a business (b) self-contained project and (c) "creativity".
What "start-up costs" were involved in thePenny Arcades Kickstarter? That literally was a Kickstarter to just pay their utility bills and running costs without ads. It passed the Kickstarter criteria by being something "creative" (i.e. a webcomic).
There's plenty of Kickstarters about "I'll make handmade puppets" or "I'll make colourful, hand-painted flower-pots". It's whole pitch is to get "art-projects" like that on board.
Don't think Kickstarter is trying to enforce much. Hell, just look at Penny Arcades 500 Dollar Pledge Level (which sold out) and Blue Table is looking very reasonable again
How many millions of dollars have Blue Table Painting raised for children's charities?
Describing penny arcade as being full of themselves tells me that you don't know anything about penny arcade.
Who gives a gak about Kickstarter guidelines? They'll remove it or they won't and people will pledge or they won't.
I vote we create a new forum, not for kickstarters but for people to whine about kickstarters in.
For what they are charging I would expect more than base coated and dipped which is their usual standard. I can put the fifty foot barge pole away, I won't be touching it.
plastictrees wrote: Describing penny arcade as being full of themselves tells me that you don't know anything about penny arcade.
They sounded pretty full of themselves during that whole "sorry you can't laugh at rape jokes" debacle. Fortunately, that didn't leave a lasting, negative impression for anyone, though, right?
PS: I'm pretty sure Mantic can tell you what professional, stand up guys those Penny Arcade dudes are.
plastictrees wrote: Describing penny arcade as being full of themselves tells me that you don't know anything about penny arcade.
Who gives a gak about Kickstarter guidelines? They'll remove it or they won't and people will pledge or they won't.
I vote we create a new forum, not for kickstarters but for people to whine about kickstarters in.
Hey. It's good to see Penny Arcade still has fans. More power to you.
But if you think I am the only one questioning the gak these guys practice, you're living in denial.
plastictrees wrote: Describing penny arcade as being full of themselves tells me that you don't know anything about penny arcade.
Who gives a gak about Kickstarter guidelines? They'll remove it or they won't and people will pledge or they won't.
I vote we create a new forum, not for kickstarters but for people to whine about kickstarters in.
Hey. It's good to see Penny Arcade still has fans. More power to you.
But if you think I am the only one questioning the gak these guys practice, you're living in denial.
Haha, yes, I'm one of the handful of people that helps Penny Arcade struggle along...
Buy "gak they practice" you mean, "clearly declare Kickstarter pledge levels that people can choose to pay for or not to pay for"? That sort of gak? Are you suggesting that they coerce people in to giving them money? Did they lie about what those pledges entailed?
"I wouldn't pay for that", is not the same as "That's a rip-off". Get a fething grip.
In effort to get back on topic, don't pledge, do pledge, or contact Kickstarter with your concerns.
Take away dipping and btp wouldn't be in business, they are way over priced and I would be ashamed to produce the miniatures they do and call it professional. This latest idea should be insulting to the player base, and anyone who actually puts money into this needs their head examined
This is simply a "please help us buy models" plea - it is nothing new or different, just them building up an inventory of painted modes they can sell quicker to improve cashflow quicker.
I got one project done with them in the past. on low res cam pictures (made with calculator not a 21centry camera) they provided the models where ok-ish, painted to level 4. When I got my models I was shocked ! My 6 years old son could do better ... And that was service for 1500$...
One example from their web store, for "only" 2250$ you can get necron Army worth 450$ painted with 3 colours and dry rushed with wall brush!
http://www.freewebstore.org/bluetablepainting/Large_Rust_Necron_Army_3000_Points__Lot_2604/p1459024_7980736.aspx
Going back to this kick started you must be mad (I as was) to use their service....
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: So using the link that god.ra posted we can see that they already stock fully painted armies ready to buy. So why a kickstarter to "start" doing this?
Reaper Miniatures already stocked Miniatures, including from the Bones compound, before their Kickstarter.
Mantic Games already stocked Miniatures and Games, including for both Fantasy and Sci-Fi before either of their Kickstarter.
Etc... .
They all went in to stock more of it faster. Simples.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: So using the link that god.ra posted we can see that they already stock fully painted armies ready to buy. So why a kickstarter to "start" doing this?
Reaper Miniatures already stocked Miniatures, including from the Bones compound, before their Kickstarter.
Mantic Games already stocked Miniatures and Games, including for both Fantasy and Sci-Fi before either of their Kickstarter.
Etc... .
They all went in to stock more of it faster. Simples.
Those companies used kickstarter to fund NEW PRODUCTS in an existing line, they did not use it to acquire NEW STOCK for an existing product. There is a world of difference. I'm sure there will be some kind of snippy response however I leave satisfied in the knowledge you're wrong ;-).
As for blue tables "excellent" product offered others are already doing an admirable job of showing off its shortcomings.
There promo video does them no favors either it's grating, annoying and talks to the potential contributor as though they are idiots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW I have reported this to kickstarter so will see what they make of it.
Those companies used kickstarter to fund NEW PRODUCTS in an existing line, they did not use it to acquire NEW STOCK for an existing product. There is a world of difference. I'm sure there will be some kind of snippy response however I leave satisfied in the knowledge you're wrong ;-).
As for blue tables "excellent" product offered others are already doing an admirable job of showing off its shortcomings.
There promo video does them no favors either it's grating, annoying and talks to the potential contributor as though they are idiots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW I have reported this to kickstarter so will see what they make of it.
Yeah, but there's a difference in
A) Their Kickstarter offerings are gakky/too expensive/unappealing and
B) Their Kickstarter offerings violate basic principles and shouldn't be allowed.
I am certainly not arguing against A. But than again, there're surely also people out there who don't like the Bones Miniatures or who thought Bombshell Babes was too expensive for what you get. It's the way it is. If BTP falls into it.. alas, that's it. I agree that their painting doesn't look very good and certainly not worth what they are asking. Yet, in my humble opinion, it's still a "better deal" than Penny Arcade asking US$ 500,- for a single re-tweet.
Getting them on B is a different argument however. And an arbitrary "distinction" of more miniatures are worthy of a Kickstarter but more painting services are not worthy of a Kickstarter seems to be difficult to defend from any sort of unbiased, rational and enforceable point of view. You keep claiming "miniatures" and "painted miniatures" are "a world of difference", but I don't really see it. You keep saying "new products" should be the lynchpin that decides, but that would've also disqualified Penny Arcade, etc.. .
Those companies used kickstarter to fund NEW PRODUCTS in an existing line, they did not use it to acquire NEW STOCK for an existing product. There is a world of difference. I'm sure there will be some kind of snippy response however I leave satisfied in the knowledge you're wrong ;-).
As for blue tables "excellent" product offered others are already doing an admirable job of showing off its shortcomings.
There promo video does them no favors either it's grating, annoying and talks to the potential contributor as though they are idiots.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW I have reported this to kickstarter so will see what they make of it.
Yeah, but there's a difference in
A) Their Kickstarter offerings are gakky/too expensive/unappealing and
B) Their Kickstarter offerings violate basic principles and shouldn't be allowed.
I am certainly not arguing against A. But than again, there're surely also people out there who don't like the Bones Miniatures or who thought Bombshell Babes was too expensive for what you get. It's the way it is. If BTP falls into it.. alas, that's it. I agree that their painting doesn't look very good and certainly not worth what they are asking. And, in my humble opinion, it's still a "better deal" than Penny Arcade asking US$ 500,- for a single re-tweet.
Getting them on B is a different argument however. And an arbitrary "distinction" of more miniatures are worthy of a Kickstarter but more painting services are not worthy of a Kickstarter seems to be difficult to defend from any sort of unbiased, rational and enforceable point of view. You keep claiming "miniatures" and "painted miniatures" are "a world of difference", but I don't really see it. You keep saying "new products" should be the lynchpin that decides, but that would've also disqualified Penny Arcade, etc.. .
Lo and behold a reading comprehension fail, I even put the relevant phrases in bold for you doh!
As far as penny arcade goes they qualify just fine as every time they update there blog or comic they are adding something NEW to an EXISTING LINE. If penny arcade offered what BTP is then effectively they would simply be offering to repost old comics. That's the difference.
Lo and behold a reading comprehension fail, I even put the relevant phrases in bold for you doh!
As far as penny arcade goes they qualify just fine as every time they update there blog or comic they are adding something NEW to an EXISTING LINE. If penny arcade offered what BTP is then effectively they would simply be offering to repost old comics. That's the difference.
How that? Even if it's a gakky paintjob, every new army painted by BTP is a new paintjob. Arguably, more man-hours go into it than do for a new Penny Arcade strip. At the very least, you know, BTP also update their website every time they finish a new army-paintjob.
Lo and behold a reading comprehension fail, I even put the relevant phrases in bold for you doh!
As far as penny arcade goes they qualify just fine as every time they update there blog or comic they are adding something NEW to an EXISTING LINE. If penny arcade offered what BTP is then effectively they would simply be offering to repost old comics. That's the difference.
How that? Even if it's a gakky paintjob, every new army painted by BTP is a new paintjob. Arguably, more man-hours go into it than do for a new Penny Arcade strip. At the very least, you know, BTP also update their website every time they finish a new army-paintjob.
Have you actually read their kickstarter? They state that they will be carbon copy armies with carbon copy paint schemes. Nothing NEW or ORIGINAL.
Man hours or cost of resources is irrelevant though nice try at straw manning ;-)
Have you actually read their kickstarter? They state that they will be carbon copy armies with carbon copy paint schemes. Nothing NEW or ORIGINAL.
Man hours or cost of resources is irrelevant though nice try at straw manning ;-)
Sure I did.
Every DreadBall box Mantic sends out will also be a carbon copy of every other DreadBall box. Hasn't stopped their Kickstarter.
Straw manning? Wasn't my intention. I just don't see how your case would ever hold up to anything other than .. I just don't like it.
And if their kickstarter was "we are raising money to purchase copies of DreadBall to stock our store so that we can sell it later", then you would have a point.
But they created a brand new game from scratch, and are using this to pay for the tooling for those models. That was the project: "We are creating a new game from scratch." not "we are going to stock an existing game that we are purchasing from somebody else".
Have you actually read their kickstarter? They state that they will be carbon copy armies with carbon copy paint schemes. Nothing NEW or ORIGINAL.
Man hours or cost of resources is irrelevant though nice try at straw manning ;-)
Sure I did.
Every DreadBall box Mantic sends out will also be a carbon copy of every other DreadBall box. Hasn't stopped their Kickstarter.
Straw manning? Wasn't my intention. I just don't see how your case would ever hold up to anything other than .. I just don't like it.
And if their kickstarter was "we are raising money to purchase copies of DreadBall to stock our store so that we can sell it later", then you would have a point.
But they created a brand new game from scratch, and are using this to pay for the tooling for those models. That was the project: "We are creating a new game from scratch." not "we are going to stock an existing game that we are purchasing from somebody else".
This is correct those PROJECTS created NEW PRODUCTS the REWARDS where copies which is perfectly permissible. BTPs PROJECT does not create a NEW PRODUCT but restocks an EXISTING PRODUCT. See the difference?
So I can go to any painting business I want and say I want a tournament ready Space Wolf army right now, here's X amount of dollars, ship it to me tomorrow.
I've never heard of that before. Maybe you can enlighten me.
And if their kickstarter was "we are raising money to purchase copies of DreadBall to stock our store so that we can sell it later", then you would have a point.
But they created a brand new game from scratch, and are using this to pay for the tooling for those models. That was the project: "We are creating a new game from scratch." not "we are going to stock an existing game that we are purchasing from somebody else".
Yeah. But Mantic just purchased their tooling, designs, etc.. from somebody else.. added value by making a game from it.. then sell it.
BTP is purchasing their miniatures, brushes, office space, etc.. from somebody else.. add (a little) value by painting it.. then sell it.
One's more production the other more services, but it's still the same principle of a company doing what they always do to make a profit. It clearly wasn't the first or last game Mantic did.
You could say they just added more games to their existing portfolio of games.. it's not like they diversified into something they never did before.
Reaper also stocked Bones Miniatures before the Kickstarted, now they stock more at greater variety, just like BTP hopes to. And .. once again .. Penny Arcade didn't start anything from scratch either. They just "stocked" more webcontent to the content they already had. And even there, they didn't even fund their webcomic with Kickstarter. They just funded the promise to show less ads next to them.
This is correct those PROJECTS created NEW PRODUCTS the REWARDS where copies which is perfectly permissible. BTPs PROJECT does not create a NEW PRODUCT but restocks an EXISTING PRODUCT. See the difference?
Nice. Capital letters. How about quote me the Kickstarter ToS that it needs to be a "NEW PRODUCT"? That's simply not a criteria. The criteria is to fit the arts and creative category (they paint stuff), to not be a business (BTP fails that, as does Mantic), not be a charity and be a self-contained project.
Simply put this is not only a violation of kickstarter policy but the kind of thing that wears out a great idea like kickstarter. This isn't the presentation of a new product but a repackaged service. I don't care if someones making a clothing line, a game, or new cooking ware as long as its a new product of some kind. But its refurbishing an existing product. Pretty lame. And why the "kickstarter bubble " will someday pop. Because of shameless secondary store fronts.
5deadly wrote: Simply put this is not only a violation of kickstarter policy but the kind of thing that wears out a great idea like kickstarter. This isn't the presentation of a new product but a repackaged service. I don't care if someones making a clothing line, a game, or new cooking ware as long as its a new product of some kind. But its refurbishing an existing product. Pretty lame. And why the "kickstarter bubble " will someday pop. Because of shameless secondary store fronts.
True. But it seems incoherent to get all fussed up about it now. The first sin was committed long ago. If they'd wanted to avoid secondary store fronts, they should've stopped Reaper, Mantic, etc. . They had the "no business" clause in there since they start. They could've enforced it anytime.
If they didn't want to stop secondary store fronts, it would be rather hypocritical to now arbitrarily exclude some, but not others, simply because the stuff they're selling seems less cool.
yeah,
I used the report this project button. You all should do this too.
They are just selling their wares via kick starter.
They even give up making up rewards at the end and just offer increased store credit...
"If you pledge $5,000 you will get $5,750 worth of credit towards your assembly and painting. If you pledge $7,500 you will get $8,750 worth of credit towards assembly and painting, and for $10,000 you can get 20% more than what you pay for with a $12,000 dollar credit towards painting and assembly."
I'll be watching to see if kickstarter close their 'project'.
Honestly If Blue Table Painting were using this campaign to fund the production of their own line of miniatures/paint sets/brushes/tutorial books/ DVDs Etc. i would have absolutely no problem with it. But since they aren't, it means they're using this Kickstarter campaign purely as publicity to sell services which they are already offering from their website.
I've already reported this campaign, im not too proud to admit it. But if this type of KS is allowed then what's to stop other businesses from trying to use Kickstarter to sell their everyday regular services.
And Kickstarter hasn't really had a "no business" clause. They just had a "make sure it is a project and something new gets created and that it is not a 'I want to start a business/fund my life' project".
It seems like the bottom feeders are coming out now and putting stuff up on kickstarter hoping to get a quick buck. One guy wants money to cut foam boards for people and now these guys want money to paint armies to sell.
I'm hoping this easy money grab stuff will subside quickly and legitimate projects will again take shape. My wallet, on the other hand....
Mr Gutsy wrote: Honestly If Blue Table Painting were using this campaign to fund the production of their own line of miniatures/paint sets/brushes/tutorial books/ DVDs Etc. i would have absolutely no problem with it. But since they aren't, it means they're using this Kickstarter campaign purely as publicity to sell services which they are already offering from their website.
I've already reported this campaign, im not too proud to admit it. But if this type of KS is allowed then what's to stop other businesses from trying to use Kickstarter to sell their everyday regular services.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I used the report this project button. You all should do this too.
They are just selling their wares via kick starter.
They even give up making up rewards at the end and just offer increased store credit...
"If you pledge $5,000 you will get $5,750 worth of credit towards your assembly and painting. If you pledge $7,500 you will get $8,750 worth of credit towards assembly and painting, and for $10,000 you can get 20% more than what you pay for with a $12,000 dollar credit towards painting and assembly."
I'll be watching to see if kickstarter close their 'project'.
Panic...
Why should I report this. I don't care what they do. If people pay enough to fund them, then why should I interfere with that? If they don't make enough the result is the same.
A lot of other businesses have done the exact same thing on Kickstarter, but no one cared because they liked what they were selling. If it doesn't concern you, let it be
No, if it concerns him he has every right to hit the report button. If you don't want to, that's fine... but that doesn't mean he isn't entitled to his opinion, too.
Personally, I think the higher reward levels ($12K of store credit for $10K) will likely be removed or modified by Kickstarter... but we'll see.
If you click the report button, there is a "Prohibited rewards" choice. That's what I clicked... if they check it out and decide they're fine with it, then no problem. However, KS has taken steps recently to try to create distinction between themselves and a simple preorder mechanism, and I think they might not look too kindly on a store simply offering discounted store credit as a reward.
But like I said, if they look at it and decide it meets their criteria, that's fine... but I do think it was worth pointing out.
Regardless, I doubt this will hit $40k (funny that they chose that number ) in which case this would be irrelevant.
Honestly, part of the 'offense' of this particular company and not say 'mantic' is that everyone can paint to some degree and believes they can do a better job then they are seeing.
This is a strange standard to hold anyone's professional vrs hobby work to. Already stated was the speed at work and the preparation, but if the issue is truly with second store-fronting....then it would have served better to take on a bigger dog then a painting outfit of some small operation in a single thread. I notice that the makers of zombicide were not called out either? did they suddenly run out of money from the first two games they kickstartered and successively completed?
Lets be honest, its kickstarter's own policy now people are disliking. until you simply stop using the kickstarter system altogether, nothing will change. Or expect to see many more successful companies using it like a circumvention for cash in-fluxing to their midlisting business models.
I'm just honestly shocked that they were once pimped out as a top notch painting service, and now we here from other posters that they .... were not.
As for the projects that they do, what exactly do they charge for in the painting services, anyway? Do they buy the armies for you and paint them, or are you supposed to be sending them the minis?
On topic, I'm actually a fan of BTP, not necessarily their work, I haven't seen it, but thier youtube channel is quite entertaining. As far as the KS though, I think it's pretty poorly thought out, well, "Knowing" Shawn the owner of BTP, badly thought out is probably quite far from the truth, perhpas "misguided" is a better word. Looking at the project, theres really nothing there to entice me to get involved, I don't see anything ground breaking or worthy of a KS project, it's a bit like Ford doing a kickstarter to design and build a Fiesta, surely if I wait it'll happen anyway, basically it looks like they are asking for 40K just to do what they do?!?!? and what is the relevance of the 40K? Just to buy stock?
I think BTP need to go back to the drawing board with this, and think about doing something original. They run this gaming convention type affair called Valhalla, that would be something to make into a KS project IMHO!
Mr Gutsy wrote: Honestly If Blue Table Painting were using this campaign to fund the production of their own line of miniatures/paint sets/brushes/tutorial books/ DVDs Etc. i would have absolutely no problem with it. But since they aren't, it means they're using this Kickstarter campaign purely as publicity to sell services which they are already offering from their website.
I've already reported this campaign, im not too proud to admit it. But if this type of KS is allowed then what's to stop other businesses from trying to use Kickstarter to sell their everyday regular services.
That is pretty much exactly how I feel.
Yup. As someone who makes most of his income doing freelance with mini painting on the side, I feel like Mr Gutsy's post summarized it nicely: a tutorial is fine, doing nothing but attempting to accelerate their business model seems... off. For me, as a freelance artist, it's like saying "Hey guys, I'd really like more business and more inventory, so here's a discount" and calling it a Kickstarter. Actually, it's a lot like that. I'm not sure what the difference is. (As above, I feel there's nothing wrong with the production stuff Gutsy talked about. Hardly new, but new ideas aren't a requirement.)
If miniatures had a more regular assembly, I'd consider funding a kickstarter for someone to buy a bunch of robotic arms with airbrushes attached that you could stick miniatures in front of. Then the arm would spray on paint along pre-programmed paths, just like the the auto and other industries do.
Sadly, the cost is extreme and I'm not sure if the arms currently have enough precision to do so yet.
It might also be easier just to use the latest color 3d printing tech.
But yeah, not really interested in paying for someone else's paint.
I am somewhat taken aback here. I always thought that blue table painting was a top notch army painting service. I knew that they were expensive, but I didn't find their prices any more out of my reach than the other services out there. After seeing a few of their projects on this forum, it really looks like all they are doing is airbrushing 3 colors and then doing a few glazes.
I guess that's how he keeps his costs down and is able to pay his employees.
Lets try and be fair here though, I haven't seen any pictures of his top tier painting services, only the lower level. 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
gannam wrote: 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
It is?
Anyway, this campaign illustrates the beauty of Crowdfunding - I doubt it is going to reach it's goal, but it will be interesting to see which way the 'votes' go!
gannam wrote: I am somewhat taken aback here. I always thought that blue table painting was a top notch army painting service. I knew that they were expensive, but I didn't find their prices any more out of my reach than the other services out there. After seeing a few of their projects on this forum, it really looks like all they are doing is airbrushing 3 colors and then doing a few glazes.
I guess that's how he keeps his costs down and is able to pay his employees.
Lets try and be fair here though, I haven't seen any pictures of his top tier painting services, only the lower level. 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
I would not classify they quality to cost as a value for money.
You can get a much cheaper service with superb quality for 50% of that price from countries like Poland or Ukraine, just need to search for.
Example, random guys, this quality:
http://white-tree.pl/?page_id=922 for less than 750$ ...
Kickstarter for stocking up, that's not what I would call "creative project".
Also ,this web miniwarbid.com have an option for setting reversed auctions for Art Commissions,I like this idea much. Perfect tool to get Value for money and for freelancers looking for some work! I wish them luck!
gannam wrote: I am somewhat taken aback here. I always thought that blue table painting was a top notch army painting service. I knew that they were expensive, but I didn't find their prices any more out of my reach than the other services out there. After seeing a few of their projects on this forum, it really looks like all they are doing is airbrushing 3 colors and then doing a few glazes.
I guess that's how he keeps his costs down and is able to pay his employees.
Lets try and be fair here though, I haven't seen any pictures of his top tier painting services, only the lower level. 1500 dollars is pretty cheap for a fully painted army from these guys.
I would not classify they quality to cost as a value for money.
You can get a much cheaper service with superb quality for 50% of that price from countries like Poland or Ukraine, just need to search for.
Example, random guys, this quality:
http://white-tree.pl/?page_id=922 for less than 750$ ...
Kickstarter for stocking up, that's not what I would call "creative project".
Also ,this web miniwarbid.com have an option for setting reversed auctions for Art Commissions,I like this idea much. Perfect tool to get Value for money and for freelancers looking for some work! I wish them luck!
Don't see why anyone would contribute to this. Even if you are getting painted minis. Either you are getting terrible terrible painted miniatures, or the paint jobs are so inconsistent would be afraid to order from them.
Here is a Firestorm Armada fleet The Editor from TMP ordered from BTP a while back
I'm no where near a great or good painter, but even being legally blind I feel that my FSA paint jobs were better.
Spoiler:
If anyone has better images of their work as I don't feel 1 project of photos warrants the entire BTP crew's skill. But not sure if I would pay someone who's skills worse than mine or inconsistent paint jobs.
The quality of the work notwithstanding, this does look like a valid kickstarter. He is creating something of value - the miniatures do have value above and beyond what they would have straight out of the box. The fact that he counts some of his kickstarter as store credit towards BTP services is worrying though.
$40Kwould buy a ton of product from GW. I hope this guy has a business license so he can get product at wholesale prices from GW.
I have heard several stories of people being unhappy with the level of service they get with their miniatures. I've heard it's really more for rich 12 year olds than for veteran wargamers who already know how to paint.
He should really buy figures in bulk from Reaper, and paint those assembly line style. If he was really smart, he'd start a kickstarter to produce a sprue of a dozen fantasy figures and paint those.
I've heard that people are flirting with having their stuff painted in China, that if the models are all the same pose, there are places you can send it to.
Good to see that they hiring though, in this economy, they're one of the few people who do so.
Grot 6 wrote: I'm just honestly shocked that they were once pimped out as a top notch painting service, and now we here from other posters that they .... were not.
As for the projects that they do, what exactly do they charge for in the painting services, anyway? Do they buy the armies for you and paint them, or are you supposed to be sending them the minis?
I think people are over-reacting.
Can you get better paint-jobs by hiring your personal Golden Daemon Winner? Sure (if you can find one that would be willing to paint up buckets of basic infantry for you).
But for a company bound on putting out good table-top quality armies with a decent turnaround, they are delivering what they promise. They wouldn't be around for nearly a decade now if their customers weren't happy.
I've heard that people are flirting with having their stuff painted in China, that if the models are all the same pose, there are places you can send it to.
Good to see that they hiring though, in this economy, they're one of the few people who do so.
Painting is worth anything someone is willing to pay for. To some people it is such a chore or becomes too time consuming for them to do feasibly so they are willing to pay top dollar for someone to handle all of that.
With that said if someone is willing to put money into the project why not? It is not like they are swindling people or not following through with their promises. They have been out for quite some time and have many examples of their work.
I would never personally want to pay for someone to paint my miniatures because that is the best part of the hobby for me. But i wouldn't look down on people who have their armies painted it is better than playing against unpainted minis.
Z, that video does look good. However, I think the knock on BTP is more their consistency (depending on the painter you get / etc, you could get a good or bad result) than whether or not they are capable of some fantastic work.
Are you a past customer, happy with the service you received?
No. No experience whatsoever with BTP.
I am interested in Kickstarter... to the point that I do blog quite a bit about it too (blog.pinsofwar.net)
I just happend to have gotten a lot of flak on dakkadakka in the past for (quietly) critizising Mantic, Reaper, etc.. for using Kickstarter as a second store front (did anyone ever doubt that Mantic would not be able to do DreadBall if their KS didn't succeed? Miniatures on pre-order from retailers before the corresponding "stretch-goal" was even achieved, etc..).
The discussion here is the logical next step I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: Z, that video does look good. However, I think the knock on BTP is more their consistency (depending on the painter you get / etc, you could get a good or bad result) than whether or not they are capable of some fantastic work.
Perhaps. Maybe they have a consistency problem. However, the video above shows that they clearly do more than just some dipping and dryshading as some people claimed above.
Some of that empire army isn't even that great (for professionals.. not saying I'd do better). I've certainly seen better banners for example. But it shows that they do put effort into it, magnetizing stuff, carefully painting eyes, some freehand, etc.., etc.. . And for an army like that (what is it? 150 or so Empire Infantry?), I can see why some people would be willing to pay for it or how there might be a market for "Turbo Armies" pre-stocked in a common colour-scheme.
It's not the second coming of the iPhone, but it's a business idea of sorts.
Indeed, getting an assembly-line of standard colour schemes that sell painted from stock just might get rid of the consistency problem too and give BTP a niche to themselves, whereas they might not be able to compete with guys like Golem Painting or Worthy Painting at the highest prestige-level.
BrookM wrote: Is it bad that I couldn't make it past the first nine seconds of their pitch movie?
"Shockwave of happiness!! By the way that's no extra charge, by the way, you get that as a bonus..."
No extra charge? That's very generous of you, particularly when you are asking for my money to help make you more money. /sarcasm
Seriously though, this kind of thing has to be bad in the long run right? Whether or not it breaches the KSTOS, if this kind of chaff fills up the site then that's less exposure for the truly innovative stuff that needs proper crowdsourcing.
I'm pleased some of you guys are expressing your displeasure by reporting it. But do you think it likely KS will pull it? I was surprised to learn that they take a massive 5%, so they have no real incentive to take it down.
If KS are happy that their site is no longer a right-minded place to provide opportunity for inspired designers unable to get to the next stage, and is now some premium ad-space for companies unwilling to risk investing in themselves, then it will eventually go down the toilet. And something better will take over.
This seems BTP is merely taking advantage of KS visibility for the purposes of advertising and has cobbled together some flimsy "project" to check the boxes. I wonder if it was something they came up with at a brainstorming session. (I get that vibe from the PAKS).
This KS along with its video is just ...tasteless.
It is actually potentially a good thing in the long run.
If it doesn't get funded (and right now, it certainly looks like it won't even make it to its halfway point), the People will have voted with their wallets, and future projects will be better defined/offer better value/etc.
I think a big distinction people are missing here is that this campaign is about getting all their artists knowledge on how to paint these "base armies" so they can offer lower cost on them.
Likewise the Penny Arcade campaign wasn't about "removing ads" it was about giving the guys running Penny Arcade extra time they'd have spent going through potential ads and the projects they had done for other video games and using it to create stuff the users wanted like Lookouts and Automata.
Bulkoth wrote: I think a big distinction people are missing here is that this campaign is about getting all their artists knowledge on how to paint these "base armies" so they can offer lower cost on them.
Likewise the Penny Arcade campaign wasn't about "removing ads" it was about giving the guys running Penny Arcade extra time they'd have spent going through potential ads and the projects they had done for other video games and using it to create stuff the users wanted like Lookouts and Automata.
So you'd be backing a project to help them buy stock, train new people, and then get expensive stuff people practiced painting on?
It's like a Kickstarter for getting a horrible haircut at a cosmetology school...
I am the very definition of a lurker...but could not keep quiet on this topic. I have assembled and painted miniatures for years but as my family grew I simply did not have time to paint or assemble. I turned to BTP to add to my 40K armies and to add new armies as they we're released While I will not pretend to say I have been completely thrilled with everything...(Two issues that we're quickly addressed) Overall I have been very pleased with their quality, consistency and delivery over time. In addition I have sent them thousand's of dollars worth of mini's including Forgeworld stuff, with no fear or risk of loss.
I have recommended BTP on several occasions and no one I have recommended has been disappointed. They build/paint solid "tabletop" quality models for a fair price.
One customer's opinion.
See link for recent project.
horusii@aol.com wrote: I am the very definition of a lurker...but could not keep quiet on this topic. I have assembled and painted miniatures for years but as my family grew I simply did not have time to paint or assemble. I turned to BTP to add to my 40K armies and to add new armies as they we're released While I will not pretend to say I have been completely thrilled with everything...(Two issues that we're quickly addressed) Overall I have been very pleased with their quality, consistency and delivery over time. In addition I have sent them thousand's of dollars worth of mini's including Forgeworld stuff, with no fear or risk of loss.
I have recommended BTP on several occasions and no one I have recommended has been disappointed. They build/paint solid "tabletop" quality models for a fair price.
One customer's opinion.
See link for recent project.
Wow, I am in shock. Read the posts on page 2-3 about Value for Money...
And BTW this topic is not about their service, after all if some is willing to pay 1500$ for painting models worth 500$ that is his decision, but Kickstarter is not about "geting stock up" or "getting more for training staff".
horusii@aol.com wrote: I am the very definition of a lurker...but could not keep quiet on this topic. I have assembled and painted miniatures for years but as my family grew I simply did not have time to paint or assemble. I turned to BTP to add to my 40K armies and to add new armies as they we're released While I will not pretend to say I have been completely thrilled with everything...(Two issues that we're quickly addressed) Overall I have been very pleased with their quality, consistency and delivery over time. In addition I have sent them thousand's of dollars worth of mini's including Forgeworld stuff, with no fear or risk of loss.
I have recommended BTP on several occasions and no one I have recommended has been disappointed. They build/paint solid "tabletop" quality models for a fair price.
One customer's opinion.
See link for recent project.
If your happy only getting half of your models painted(and by half of your models i mean take a look at the models they paint, the undersides are not even touched, barely based. undersides of tanks/turrets/weapons not even touched).not getting your bits back, and horrible communication from a company that charges you a arm and leg sure ..go ahead and have fun..it's your money after all.
And BTW this topic is not about their service, after all if some is willing to pay 1500$ for painting models worth 500$ that is his decision, but Kickstarter is not about "geting stock up" or "getting more for training staff".
No. Kickstarter is if you need funding to make an idea happen. It seems fairly plausible that BTP will not be able to set up their "Turbo Army" ideas if they dont make their goal and need to pull their idea and go back to the drawing board, just like these guys have recently done.
Some ideas are bad and dont get funding. Some ideas are good and do get funding. Both should be on Kickstarter to get vetted by people with their money.
In contrast, what should NOT be on Kickstarter are projects that don't hinge on the funding (e.g. Mantic's DreadBall, CMON's stuff, even the Boss Monster Cardgame a few threads down, which by their own description is already developed!!!).
As BTP actually wants to Kickstart a project - irrespective of whether its a smart project or not - instead of just "blinging-up a project that'll happen either way" - as Mantic for example did - BTP are likely far more deserving to be on the site than Mantic or CMON ever were.
Wow ... it amazes me how polarizing Kickstarter projects can be and how much back-and-forth dialog can be heard from both the Yea- and the Nay-sayers.
Personally, I don't care what is or is not "deserving" of having a Kickstarter. I'm of the mind that, if it interests me, I pledge. If it doesn't, I do not. Quite simple really.
The idea of crowd-funding is that, if the idea is worthy, and appeals to the masses, it will be funded. Essentially "survival of the fittest" for the more appealing ideas. The less appealing or less thought out don't get the funding.
I don't understand the need to get so frustrated and indignant about a Kickstarter - especially to the point of having to "report" a project that may not appeal to an individual. One that may not appeal to one person may to another. It's subjective, much like the service and quality of BTP, and isn't worth the aggravation.
What gives one, or a few, vocal individual(s) the right to report and potentially shut down a project that may appeal and have merit to others? Let the crowd vote over the project's merits with their wallets, or not, and save the campaigning for those that initiated the Kickstarter.
And BTW this topic is not about their service, after all if some is willing to pay 1500$ for painting models worth 500$ that is his decision, but Kickstarter is not about "geting stock up" or "getting more for training staff".
No. Kickstarter is if you need funding to make an idea happen. It seems fairly plausible that BTP will not be able to set up their "Turbo Army" ideas if they dont make their goal and need to pull their idea and go back to the drawing board, just like these guys have recently done.
Some ideas are bad and dont get funding. Some ideas are good and do get funding. Both should be on Kickstarter to get vetted by people with their money.
In contrast, what should NOT be on Kickstarter are projects that don't hinge on the funding (e.g. Mantic's DreadBall, CMON's stuff, even the Boss Monster Cardgame a few threads down, which by their own description is already developed!!!).
As BTP actually wants to Kickstart a project - irrespective of whether its a smart project or not - instead of just "blinging-up a project that'll happen either way" - as Mantic for example did - BTP are likely far more deserving to be on the site than Mantic or CMON ever were.
Wow I'm so glad you have full access to the balance sheets of mantic and cool mini or not, studio mcvey et al so that you know full well they had the immediate funds to put those projects into action.
Oh wait you don't and your talking from a horrendous position of ignorance, I feel sorry for you really I do.
Trust me there is no exposure of liability or risk involved with doing prepaints, I know this having done several years of commission painting.
Quite frankly BTP is full of bull crap as I illustrated earlier in this thread.
I'm sure your having a mini painting blog that no doubt receives sponsorship from BTP has coloured your judgement and you really should declare your interests. Quite frankly I find it horrifyingly shameful that you have acted in this way to earn a cheap buck.
Darth Bob wrote: I also like how he calls people who use unpainted models 'pathetic'. Insulting your customers doesn't seem like a good business strategy.
It's certainly a novel approach seeing as the owners are lifestyle coaches.
Truthfully I don't get this kickstarter and the reason behind it. I understand why a lot of people do kickstarters as even if unsuccessful they have a bigger effect then most people realise. It's free advertising and has the potential to help ease the pain of funding projects. Heck I'm working on a long term project right now that the cost is not easy to swallow but if successful will have a fast return. The problem with the BTP is their really is no clear cut goal to their KS. It would be similair to me saying "hey I want to grow my business more but by adding more inventory so pay me!". I think that's more of the interp. that people are taking to it. Now personally I think their quality sucks but more so for the price even, but on the plus side I can now use them as an example to my customers who complain that I charge to much as I can show them this and say "you can have a lesser quality for triple the price". In the end I echo as the others vote with your wallet, as I know I am on this one and refusing to even touch that ks with a ten foot pole.
I don't really get what the end goal of this kickstarter is. By funding it, it means in the future I can get already painted armies in standard colours more quickly?
If I was to find my self with the money to pay someone to paint a army, I want it painted in my colours and done well. I'm not looking for something that could just end up being a step up from pre-painted mini's. The end goal only realy benefits bandwagon gamers who need the newest meta build for the upcoming tourney in their lap in time for competion.
This is a VERY niche serves for a already niche market. I will be surprised if Blue Table manages to pull this off.
I would be more impressed if they were using kick started to generate the funds to expand into making their own conversion bits and bases.
Well, I try not to be a cynic, but I seriously wonder why anyone would ever fund anything on kickstarter these days.
Initially, I believe the site had pure intentions to help creative individuals realize their dreams, but now it seems to have rapidly become a platform for E-Begging and exploitation of generous individuals looking for something new.
Although I really wouldn't know. I don't browse the site and the only kickstarter news I hear is what filters down to me through dakka and other avenues.
Are you a past customer, happy with the service you received?
I'm wondering where all of the people who are happy with BTP are on this thread.
I have no dog in this fight; I don't own any minis that I didn't paint myself with my own hand. That being said previous to this thread I've only really heard good things about BTP and was kinda surprised to see how negative the responses here were. Obviously someone is using their services.
Are you a past customer, happy with the service you received?
I'm wondering where all of the people who are happy with BTP are on this thread.
I have no dog in this fight; I don't own any minis that I didn't paint myself with my own hand. That being said previous to this thread I've only really heard good things about BTP and was kinda surprised to see how negative the responses here were. Obviously someone is using their services.
To what end would a BPT customer, beyond horus, want to come in and talk about the product for BTP? The mood in here is already pretty set. It seems to be they'd only be opening themselves up to pointless ridicule by folks who have already made up their mind. From what I've seen of their armies I think they do good work. I also thought Paint it Black Studios does good work too. However, by the looks of his YouTube channnel he hasn't painted anything in some time.
Wow I'm so glad you have full access to the balance sheets of mantic and cool mini or not, studio mcvey et al so that you know full well they had the immediate funds to put those projects into action.
Oh wait you don't and your talking from a horrendous position of ignorance, I feel sorry for you really I do.
I'm sure your having a mini painting blog that no doubt receives sponsorship from BTP has coloured your judgement and you really should declare your interests. Quite frankly I find it horrifyingly shameful that you have acted in this way to earn a cheap buck.
.. in actually the same post. Nice one.
You either have access to my balance sheets... or you should start feeling sorry for yourself, I guess
Ouze wrote:
I have no dog in this fight; I don't own any minis that I didn't paint myself with my own hand.
I do though in fairness they are show pieces from my painting mentor so ifso factso and they weren't cheap. Although they are display and not play pieces so not sure if that counts hrmm. BTP to me would be much better if they were cheaper but for the quality of the work it just doesn't seem to me to be worth the pricing. To each their own I guess and if they are successfull in their KS then good for them, if not then well I am not shocked.
Wow I'm so glad you have full access to the balance sheets of mantic and cool mini or not, studio mcvey et al so that you know full well they had the immediate funds to put those projects into action.
Oh wait you don't and your talking from a horrendous position of ignorance, I feel sorry for you really I do.
I'm sure your having a mini painting blog that no doubt receives sponsorship from BTP has coloured your judgement and you really should declare your interests. Quite frankly I find it horrifyingly shameful that you have acted in this way to earn a cheap buck.
.. in actually the same post. Nice one.
You either have access to my balance sheets... or you should start feeling sorry for yourself, I guess
So you admit your taking sponsorship from BTP then. As you state I wouldn't feel sorry for myself if I had access to your balance sheets. Phew glad we got that all sorted out guess we can all put zwreischneid on ignore now :-p
Back on topic time looking at the backers it looks the most popular rewards are the painting DVDs/ digital versions. Makes me think that might have been a better way to raise funding. Kickstarter a series of painting DVDs the rewards being said DVDs then take the profit to buy stock for your other project. That way they could create something new which can be an ongoing product plus they get the funds to restock.
Not sure if they are still at btp but I remember from watching the YouTube channel that they were in the process of sculpting minis/parts to cast. That would of been ks worthy
cerealkiller195 wrote: Not sure if they are still at btp but I remember from watching the YouTube channel that they were in the process of sculpting minis/parts to cast. That would of been ks worthy
Why is pre-sculpting models for people too lazy to sculpt themselves more KS-worthy than pre-painting models for people too lazy to paint themselves?
Why is pre-sculpting models for people too lazy to sculpt themselves more KS-worthy than pre-painting models for people too lazy to paint themselves?
Seems like the same thing in blue.
If you want to knock BTP's Kickstarter ad nauseum, that's fine (but getting annoying) but you do not need to insult people that may choose to use an outside service for painting or sculpting if they choose. What you so callously call "lazy" could be due to lack of time, lack of ability or even a disability. Jeesh ...
Empchild wrote: Truthfully I don't get this kickstarter and the reason behind it.
As far as I am able to tell, it seems they think they can use the crowdfunding craze to generate revenue. If their current business model doesn't drive sales, I really don't see how this will, either.
From what I gathered in between the BS, he wants to have fully painted armies on stock to be a trendsetter, have faster sales and do more battle reports with more variety.
Why is pre-sculpting models for people too lazy to sculpt themselves more KS-worthy than pre-painting models for people too lazy to paint themselves?
Seems like the same thing in blue.
If you want to knock BTP's Kickstarter ad nauseum, that's fine (but getting annoying) but you do not need to insult people that may choose to use an outside service for painting or sculpting if they choose. What you so callously call "lazy" could be due to lack of time, lack of ability or even a disability. Jeesh ...
I could care less about BTP.
What I find so utterly astounding is the perpetual logic failure and blatant hypocrisy of people who feel they need to start a crusade against BTP, yet defend the far more immoral co-opting of the Kickstarter platform by companies like Mantic or Reaper.
This thread is the dictionary entry for double standards, which I find fascinating (for more than the actual BTP Kickstarter).
Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.
d-usa wrote: Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.
yeah, i buy blank canvas all the time to hang on walls and hunks of raw materials to place as sculpture...
d-usa wrote: Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.
yeah, i buy blank canvas all the time to hang on walls. and hunks of raw materials to place as sculpture...
Which would fall outside of kickstarter rules as a "fund my life" project".
Somehow he also keeps on thinking it is an anti-business thing, which it isn't.
There is nothing new created in this project, and it not even anything new for Blue Table, they are already doing this exact thing and only want to raise money to buy stock.
d-usa wrote: Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.
How are Reaper or Mantic creating things from nothing?
Reaper is selling Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N Miniatures for sale.
BTP is selling painted Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X painted Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N painted Miniatures for sale.
Kickstarter allowed Reaper to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.
Kickstarter (if successful) will allow BTP to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.
And as for Mantic, we know from the leaked retailer release lists, that they actually already scheduled production of the game, along with most stretch-goal, to distribute to the shops that stock them (not greens, not test-sculpts, not concept art, but actual product to ship to stores all over the world) before the DreadBall Kickstarter actually went live.
They literally created nothing with Kickstarter. To them, it was just a fancy launch-ad.
d-usa wrote: Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.
yeah, i buy blank canvas all the time to hang on walls. and hunks of raw materials to place as sculpture...
Which would fall outside of kickstarter rules as a "fund my life" project".
Somehow he also keeps on thinking it is an anti-business thing, which it isn't.
There is nothing new created in this project, and it not even anything new for Blue Table, *** they are already doing this exact thing and only want to raise money to buy stock.***
that is a different thing from your initial problem with it in the first statement, which is exactly what i talked about before; snobbery about painting as a business.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a whole; if this were a new company fresh out of the box starting, i think it would fine with me and even Zwe. the problem lies in the fact that they are an established business already doing quite well, it seems, and just being a bit over the top here. correct me if i am wrong, all parties concerned.
d-usa wrote: Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.
How are Reaper or Mantic creating things from nothing?
Reaper is selling Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have Y Miniatures for sale.
BTP is selling painted Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X painted Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N painted Miniatures for sale.
Kickstarter allowed Reaper to do an investment to make that "Y" happen.
Kickstarter (if successful) will allow BTP to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.
I think this kick starter can just be summed up as "under whelming".
Apparently the goal is to generate more cash, so they can afford to just have fully painted armies just sitting around ready to be shipped off. It's nothing "new" or exciting. BTP already does this in a limited fashion. They just want to do it even more. Bassicly the goal is to try and improve the speed of a services they already offer.
It's hard to describe this kickstarter as anything but "meh..." in all honesty.
If it wasn't for the arguments, I'm pretty sure this topic would of already started to fall into obscurity.
d-usa wrote: Honestly, if you don't see a difference between creating something new from nothing and buying stock to paint and sell later, then there is really nothing more anybody can really say to you.
How are Reaper or Mantic creating things from nothing?
Reaper is selling Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N Miniatures for sale.
BTP is selling painted Miniatures. Pre-Kickstarter, they have X painted Miniatures for sale. Post-Kickstarter, they have X+N painted Miniatures for sale.
Kickstarter allowed Reaper to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.
Kickstarter (if successful) will allow BTP to do an investment to make that "+N" happen.
And as for Mantic, we know from the leaked retailer release lists, that they actually already scheduled production of the game, along with most stretch-goal, to distribute to the shops that stock them (not greens, not test-sculpts, not concept art, but actual product to ship to stores all over the world) before the DreadBall Kickstarter actually went live.
They literally created nothing with Kickstarter. To them, it was just a fancy launch-ad.
I don't understand your argument here.
They funded miniatures with a clear cut plan of what they were doing. This painting service- has nothing. they are selling percentages of hot air.
that is a different thing from your initial problem with it in the first statement, which is exactly what i talked about before; snobbery about painting as a business.
As a whole; if this were a new company fresh out of the box starting, i think it would fine with me and even Zwe. the problem lies in the fact that they are an established business already doing quite well, it seems, and just being a bit over the top here. correct me if i am wrong, all parties concerned.
How old the business is has absolutely nothing to do with this.
It's that they are not creating anything. I would have the same problem with a day old business using kickstarter for a "help me buy stock" project.
It has also nothing to do with snobery about painting as a business. There is lots of potential to do kickstarters that focus on painting, how-to DVD's, making your own paints, conversion kits. All of which would have created new things instead of duplicating services that are already there and just buying stock.
They funded miniatures with a clear cut plan of what they were doing. This painting service- has nothing. they are selling percentages of hot air.
I'd rather have the miniatures.
Yeah. I'd rather have the miniatures too. But that isn't the question.
The question is.. does BTP violate a specific ToS of Kickstarter. And if, do they violate a ToS that Mantic, Reaper or Penny Arcade haven't likewise violated.
This is part of the problem here. A lot of people are biased because they don't want to have the companies they like and that produce "cool stuff" be in violation of KS. BTP, in contrast, by the video and the general service they offer, does seem like a pretty obnoxious guy / snake-oil business. They are easy to hate.
But personal preferences and bias are no basis to make such a judgement call on whether or not a clear ToS principle was violated.
And in this case, the distinction is semantic.
Reaper didn't fund anything new. They've been doing Bones for some time. Now they have more Bones. Yupdedoo. Penny Arcade offered nothing new. They do what they always did. They didn't even produce more of it. They just promised to get rid of ads (and didn't even do that).
And for what it's worth, KS doesn't ask you to do something "new" in the first place. They accept "art" and "crafts" projects. If you want to paint on paper or canvas or pottery to sell, that's a perfectly viable Kickstarter. So why wouldn't they allow a KS that paints on miniature plastic?
They funded miniatures with a clear cut plan of what they were doing. This painting service- has nothing. they are selling percentages of hot air.
I'd rather have the miniatures.
Yeah. I'd rather have the miniatures too. But that isn't the question.
The question is.. does BTP violate a specific ToS of Kickstarter. And if, do they violate a ToS that Mantic, Reaper or Penny Arcade haven't likewise violated.
This is part of the problem here. A lot of people are biased because they don't want to have the companies they like and that produce "cool stuff" be in violation of KS. BTP, in contrast, by the video and the general service they offer, does seem like a pretty obnoxious guy / snake-oil business. They are easy to hate.
But personal preferences and bias are no basis to make such a judgement call on whether or not a clear ToS principle was violated.
And in this case, the distinction is semantic.
Reaper didn't fund anything new. They've been doing Bones for some time. Now they have more Bones. Yupdedoo. Penny Arcade offered nothing new. They do what they always did. They didn't even produce more of it. They just promised to get rid of ads (and didn't even do that).
And for what it's worth, KS doesn't ask you to do something "new" in the first place. They accept "art" and "crafts" projects. If you want to paint on paper or canvas or pottery to sell, that's a perfectly viable Kickstarter. So why wouldn't they allow a KS that paints on miniature plastic?
I've been saying this for a little while now. Thats why I've got a bone or two to pick with KS, These companies are just using this crowd funding to sell stuff.
BUT, KS doesn't want to get into a position, will not discuss, and will if anything kick YOU loose if you brace them on the subject.
I know, it happened to me when I called them out on it, but when you are on the business end recipient of part of a million bucks, your really not going to push to hard on "Your" rule about the site.
I mean seriously, would not YOU just "Overlook" that particular if you were getting in on part of not only ONE MILLION, but several other projects?
I mean seriously- KS has to be pulling something like a quarter million a week, if we see this as an ongoing thing, they know who is buttering thier bread. WHY would they want to where they eat?
This tangent goes into some very dark holes, too, so you'd better be warned when you get in touch with them over this subject that your in for getting deep sixed for even breaching the question to them.
I sorta see what You are saying though, but BTP is not really doing "Art". They are running a painting business, not just doing art for arts sake. Even the guy's craptastic video didn't really do them any favors, and if anything they are doing a little more of the crapping where they eat in thier own right. I mean, the size of the brass this guy has, I am suprised that he has a set of pants that fit him.
Even after seeing the "explanation," if you want to call it that, I was even more ed off at thier attitude.
Seriously, Who exactly told these tools that they were the be all, end all of painting? I'll go on and break your hearts for you, and tell them that they are in my circles, just "OK". Not really that impressive, when you used to hang around with numerous GD winners and runner ups.
They are asking for cash for extra stock. Reaper was selling "Bones", CMON is selling... what they are selling, and even when you get down to brass tacks, what exactly are they using the site for? To make thier project money and make bank.
and at the end of the day, thats all that matters.
Did KS sell thier souls? Maybe.
I'll tell you from what I found though, that they ARE NOT so big on telling you exactly what they are doing, and that KS is pushing some dangerous terrritory in thier own rights, even so much as not even putting it out there that people are "Selling" from the site.
Agree with general consensus that kick starter is starting to be abused . Sedition wars and red box aside I have not seen anything of late to interest me . Btp's ks seems to be as folks say just a grab at generating extra business for them . However I find the btp hate in this thread a bit much . I have never brought anything from them nor intend to use their painting services but I greatly appreciate their online batreps and studio reports in general so I have a lot of good will towards them .
As an aside kingdom death is now talking about a kick starter in the new year to get their first board/card game out ...looking forward to that at least .
Absolutely pertinent to the whole "validity of BTP Kickstarter project" debate:
(taken from TGN thread)
"BTPemployee wrote:
October 29, 2012 at 2:42 pm
I’m a BTP employee and will remain nameless for obvious reasons. Most of the critical observations in this thread are indeed accurate.
The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.
I can verify most of what Trojan has said of his experience at BTP. I’m sorry you wasted your time and money, I wish I could warn others before they do the same. But you did get a glimpse of the real BTP. I don’t know why you wern’t hired, but you should be gratefull that you weren’t. I really feel sorry for the guys that relocate out here and get stuck. The ones that rent from BTP are really in a tight spot.
I actually feel a bit sorry for Shawn as well. I don’t know that he is outright dishonest. He has grand dreams of Shawnland, and lives there to much to actually manage a successful business."
I’m a BTP employee and will remain nameless for obvious reasons. Most of the critical observations in this thread are indeed accurate.
The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.
I can verify most of what Trojan has said of his experience at BTP. I’m sorry you wasted your time and money, I wish I could warn others before they do the same. But you did get a glimpse of the real BTP. I don’t know why you wern’t hired, but you should be gratefull that you weren’t. I really feel sorry for the guys that relocate out here and get stuck. The ones that rent from BTP are really in a tight spot.
I actually feel a bit sorry for Shawn as well. I don’t know that he is outright dishonest. He has grand dreams of Shawnland, and lives there to much to actually manage a successful business."
Wow, sounds like a rough situation. Not a fan of their chosen solution, but I wouldn't wish bankruptcy on anyone...
I’m a BTP employee and will remain nameless for obvious reasons. Most of the critical observations in this thread are indeed accurate.
The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.
I can verify most of what Trojan has said of his experience at BTP. I’m sorry you wasted your time and money, I wish I could warn others before they do the same. But you did get a glimpse of the real BTP. I don’t know why you wern’t hired, but you should be gratefull that you weren’t. I really feel sorry for the guys that relocate out here and get stuck. The ones that rent from BTP are really in a tight spot.
I actually feel a bit sorry for Shawn as well. I don’t know that he is outright dishonest. He has grand dreams of Shawnland, and lives there to much to actually manage a successful business."
So far it looks like the campaign will be successful, with $17k to go and 24 days still left in the campaign.
Since Kickstarter apparently allows this type of campaign, i've taken the liberty of notifying my local Car wash, Surf Shop and Dry Cleaners so each of them can cash in on the kickstarter craze by launching their own campaigns that offer nothing new but regular existing services...
Alpharius wrote: They are more than half way to their goal with 24 days left to go!
I admit - I am shocked!
When this was first posted I gave it a cursory glance and dismissed it out right. Who's gonna pay to give BTP a bunch of painted armies? Man, was I wrong.
So far it looks like the campaign will be successful, with $17k to go and 24 days still left in the campaign.
Since Kickstarter apparently allows this type of campaign, i've taken the liberty of notifying my local Car wash, Surf Shop and Dry Cleaners so each of them can cash in on the kickstarter craze by launching their own campaigns that offer nothing new but regular existing services...
I like how Shawn apparently replied to the anonymous employee, and the fact the guy made the mistake of mentioning he was one of the painters who relocated to work at BTP and was going to be leaving BTP soon. That's going to be ackword once Shawn starts to connect the dots....
Oh the internet drama. You could cut it with a knife.
The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.
Looking for a client to place a FW order for us. You order the models and tell us the USD amount. We give you a credit for service for that amount plus 20%. So a $500 order would give you a $600 credit. It's awesome!
Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com if you can do it. The minimum is $400 USD out to make the Express ship minimum. We need $2300 USD ordered but you can do part or all as you see fit."
Mix 1 part BTP anonymous painter claiming "they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders" and 1 part BTP looking for a prospective client to BUY Forge World models for the studio (to the tune of a $2300.00 order), stir and chill. Result? Well, doesn't that lead a reader to conclude BTP may very well be AT LEAST $2300.00 in debt/behind on obligations?
The Kickstarter is indeed a money grab, and a desperate one at that. BTP is a slowly failing business that is going further into debt by the day. Much of the debt is in the form of credit owed to its customers. Many weeks they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders, even though 50% down payments were made. Those down payments are often spent on previous orders and payroll. I hope for the sake of the Kickstarter supporters that it fails because much of the money will be spent before Kickstarter obligations are met.
Looking for a client to place a FW order for us. You order the models and tell us the USD amount. We give you a credit for service for that amount plus 20%. So a $500 order would give you a $600 credit. It's awesome!
Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com if you can do it. The minimum is $400 USD out to make the Express ship minimum. We need $2300 USD ordered but you can do part or all as you see fit."
Mix 1 part BTP anonymous painter claiming "they don’t even have the money to order the models and supplies needed for current orders" and 1 part BTP looking for a prospective client to BUY Forge World models for the studio (to the tune of a $2300.00 order), stir and chill. Result? Well, doesn't that lead a reader to conclude BTP may very well be AT LEAST $2300.00 in debt/behind on obligations?
Wow, I am in shock. Read the posts on page 2-3 about Value for Money...
And BTW this topic is not about their service, after all if some is willing to pay 1500$ for painting models worth 500$ that is his decision, but Kickstarter is not about "geting stock up" or "getting more for training staff".
As someone who spent 2 years freelance painting, I can't let this one slide. I couldn't care less about BTP as a whole, I remember seeing their stuff when they first started and it was awful, but I also know a lot of other people who had stuff done and were very happy with the result. I have never dealt with them directly or indirectly and didn't know any of the drama over working for them till this thread brought it to my attention. Their KS made me roll my eyes, but no moreso than a lot of other dubious KSs I have seen. But as to painting in general and those pieces in particular I can say that THAT, THAT quote right there, is a biggest reason I got out of it. This kind of mentality is just too prevalent. It's why there's such a high turnover rate for painters, and why so very few people keep doing it for more than a couple of years. Everyone expects artisan quality work but they're only wiling to pay for wal-mart prices.
[rant]Those cultists probably took an hour to an hour and a half each when you include the cleaning/assembling/priming/painting/basing, and those prices also include the models themselves. So you're griping about a moderately skilled laborer making maybe $10 an hour, quite probably less, for doing a job you are unwilling or unable to do yourself. I don't know how things are in BTP's state (colorado?) but here in california that painter would be earning $8 an hour flipping burgers, pumping gas or washing cars and that takes no skill at all. Painting minis, even the tabletop standard blocking in the 3 colors+wash takes a fair bit of time and even the skeeviest apartments here rent for over $600 a month, let alone food & bills and god forbid you want money for things like going out. Your also self-employed and paying a high tax bracket because of it and that all comes due in April since there's no paycheck to spread a payroll tax out over.
Even those basic paintjobs take a degree of skill that you couldn't find from someone you hired off the street, I don't know why people expect to pay them less for their time than the guy making their food at McDonalds. For for every person you deal with that understands that, you get 5 who quote you prices from Sri Lanka expecting you to match them, and then get angry when the $3 paint jobs they wanted look like something you only spent 20 minutes on and all you see is the wasted potential of how awesome you COULD have made the figures if they'd even just been willing to spend as much on the paint as the minis themselves had cost to buy. And if you give them a little extra highlighting or basing for free, just to make it something you aren't ashamed of putting your name on, congradulations, you just included that level of work in your price every time you deal with that customer from then on and anyone he recomends you to, hope you like working for free.
$10 for a tabletop paintjob is a bargain. It's not cheap, not by a long shot, but consider how long it would have taken you to do the exact same result (IF you were even able to accomplish the exact same result) then also consider WHY you weren't willing (or able) to do it and take another look at the price tag. [/rant]
Back on topic, it may not be against the KS rules, but it certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth that even the larger companies doing their own projects didn't. To me, the BTP KS goes against the "intention" of KS far more than Reaper making more plastic figs or Mantic upgrading the components of a not-bloodbowl they were going to make anyways. At least those KSs gave the backers tangible rewards, upgrading the product into something that would not have existed (or would have taken years to release using traditional means) if they hadn't been crowdfunded. If Zweischneid doesn't already see a fundamental differance between these projects then no amount of argument will ever convince him of what a lot of people find fairly obvious, nor will he be able to convince us that it's totally the same thing. Most of his arguments in this and the other KS threads have struck me as "Big, established companies using KS is BAD, even if they're doing cool things! Small, independant companies using KS GOOD, no matter what they're doing with it!"
Alpharius wrote: They are more than half way to their goal with 24 days left to go!
I admit - I am shocked!
When this was first posted I gave it a cursory glance and dismissed it out right. Who's gonna pay to give BTP a bunch of painted armies? Man, was I wrong.
I had the same thought, but when you consider they're essentially promising discounts to high-dollar services, it doesn't take all that many backers to hit 40k, especially if they were already going to have the work done anyways.
@Middle Pillar Path Jay-
Oh wow. That does seem like a failing businesses making grabs at staying afloat and I've seen a lot of FLGS do the very same thing, essentially, including the one I used to work for. You offer deep discounts on product if you pre-pay, use the money to cover minimum payment on your current running total with a distributor to stay on 30 or 60 day terms, order the new product and hope somebody else comes in and does the same thing for when the bill for the deep discounted stuff comes. Sometimes it works out and business picks up, but you keep doing it and eventually something slips and the whole house comes crumbling down. Especially if they're offering 20% off something that isn't currently working out.
Why don't they just do the right thing and step up thier game?
The biggest issue here is that general bad... vibe that this one has behind it. It isn't just- Hey, we need a KS to get a bunch of paint and hire a couple more guys, it is a rag tag meally louth plea for money to buy minis to paint and sell, outright.
Buyer beware when you send in YOUR miniatures, and get some off the shelf gak that had already been done and wasn't what you paid to get done.
Good luck to them, but I for one will keep to having them on the you tube for a laugh and watch some vids.
If they were really thinking it through, they would have put together a CD or series of "HOW TO PAINT --------------" and sold it for ten bucks a whack, and called it a day.
SO many people out there that would like to learn how, and they let an opportunity like that slide by.
They are selling percentages of hot air.
Reminds me of that Dr Who show.
"I give you the gift of the air from my lungs" comes to mind.
Here is another from their blog
" Hero of the Imperium 2012
All right folks, here are the details. Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested or if you have questions.
This is a limited offer; there is only two golden slots left. This is the absolute best special that BTP offers, and we don't do it very often. Indeed, it's possible that we may never offer them again.
You get a $5,000 credit to be used for painted/finished figures for $3000.
Or,
You get a $2,500 credit to be used for painted/finished figures for $1600.
Once you pay, the credit becomes available by by degree each month, starting thirty days after you pay, at the rate of minimum 1/10 the total amount per month over the course of five months. I sometimes fulfill them at a faster rate.
This credit cannot be used to pay off current or past projects. It's only for new, future projects.
On a case-by-case basis you can also pick up second-hand armies we have for sale.
It's the ultimate bulk deal. I personally guarantee to uphold my end of the bargain. I give you my word to act in good faith. No shenanigans.
Please contact me via email at bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested.
There are a few conditions. The credit is can be used for materials (ie the models/kits) but those need to be assembled and painted by BTP as part of the deal (ie you can't just have us mail you kits). Some miniatures lines are not available through this deal (eg Forge World).
If you are dis-satisfied in any way, you agree to notify us and let us make reasonable amends. This deal is subject to our normal Terms of Service in our service guide.
The normal discounts for materials are not cumulative with this credit.
You can also send your own models to be painted. You don't need to get them through BTP.
The credit can only be used for commonly available materials (for example: not Forge World).
This special is the best deal offered to date. It is not cumulative with other specials. Exceptions: L2, Tank Factory, and Artistic License (those specials are cumulative with this one). Other specials/deals or whatever work with this one only at BTP's discretion.
BTP can reasonably clarify or amend unclear areas of the deal. There are always little gremlins that get in works. We both agree to be reasonable.
Shawn Gately
"
If they were really thinking it through, they would have put together a CD or series of "HOW TO PAINT --------------" and sold it for ten bucks a whack, and called it a day.
SO many people out there that would like to learn how, and they let an opportunity like that slide by.
I remember him saying before they would never do how to paint videos because they are afraid of competitors stealing their techniques. Something about the fact they do their miniatures in away to grantee consistency between painters and projects. (Believe this was in relation to putting such videos up on youtube thow if I remember correctly.)
But then thinking about you you start to realize the issue of blue table doing painting DVD's. "Cool-Mini or not" not only sells DVD's that show thows exact same tecnquies (Or if not the same, very close), but even sell DVD's to teach you how to paint BETTER then the level BTP normally paints on.
It's still a realy good question all the same why they didn't use kickstarter to do something like that anyway. They have a huge Youtube following, and probly could of capitalize on it. specaily since some of the other how to paint DVD's and videos out their can be abit... stuffy in tone.
Well, I believe the future we'll see more "painting" Kickstarter that go the way of Massive Voodoo (Figure Art Indiegogo), i.e. offer a show-case book/tutorials and (which Massive Voodoo doesn't do) add a few "we'll also paint stuff for you" pledges to go with it.
Maybe that'll be more acceptable for most people?
In a way I find it ironic that people are actually asking to be "deceived" by a smokescreen of painting DvDs, tutorial books or whatnot and would find that preferable/more acceptable than a company coming straight at you and asking for funding for the thing they really want to do (Irrespective of whether or not you would want to support that).
Zweischneid wrote: Well, I believe the future we'll see more "painting" Kickstarter that go the way of Massive Voodoo (Figure Art Indiegogo), i.e. offer a show-case book/tutorials and (which Massive Voodoo doesn't do) add a few "we'll also paint stuff for you" pledges to go with it.
Maybe that'll be more acceptable for most people?
In a way I find it ironic that people are actually asking to be "deceived" by a smokescreen of painting DvDs, tutorial books or whatnot and would find that preferable/more acceptable than a company coming straight at you and asking for funding for the thing they really want to do (Irrespective of whether or not you would want to support that).
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
I'm prety sure we were saying we would rather see a painting company doing a kickstart to launch a line of Books, DVD's, ect. As in the point of the kickstarter is to launch said product line, and not a 2nd thought.
Yah know. Instead of a kickstarter that is being used as a glorified shopping cart.
Make sure to check out the other Blue Table Painting thread over in the Painting & Modeling/Painting & Modeling section if you have not already done so.
It will give you even more insight into what is going on.
I'm prety sure we were saying we would rather see a painting company doing a kickstart to launch a line of Books, DVD's, ect. As in the point of the kickstarter is to launch said product line, and not a 2nd thought.
Yah know. Instead of a kickstarter that is being used as a glorified shopping cart.
How is it any less a glorified shopping cart if its a shopping cart for books and DvDs instead of painted armies (with the former taking less than 1/1000000th of the time and investment to set up compared to the "stocking-pre-painted-armies idea that BTP is pitching?)
I'm prety sure we were saying we would rather see a painting company doing a kickstart to launch a line of Books, DVD's, ect. As in the point of the kickstarter is to launch said product line, and not a 2nd thought.
Yah know. Instead of a kickstarter that is being used as a glorified shopping cart.
How is it any less a glorified shopping cart if its a shopping cart for books and DvDs instead of painted armies (with the former taking less than 1/1000000th of the time and investment to set up compared to the "stocking-pre-painted-armies idea that BTP is pitching?)
Kickstarter in theory is for helping business/artists/ect to launch new products and services.
The DVD's/Books do not exist yet. The crowd funding is so they can make it.
Blue Table Painting is selling art commissions like they always have.
Here is a example of a service that happened because of kickstarter. Serj (Of "system of a down" fame) recently did a kickstarter for his ORCA symphony. This is a service that Serj would not be able to do with out major investment. By going to Kickstarter he was able to do something that normally would of taken years of work to see happen.
BTP isn't doing something grand here, their not restructuring their serves, they are just doing what they always do.
It would be like if a dry cleaner's did a Kickstarter, where you paid them to do your dry cleaning.
If you can't get that, then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Kickstarter in theory is for helping business/artists/ect to launch new products and services.
Says who?
Penny Arcade is doing just the same post-Kickstarter as they did pre-Kickstarter too. I still haven't found this "new product" requirement anywhere on the Kickstarter page.
Kickstarter in theory is for helping business/artists/ect to launch new products and services.
Says who?
Penny Arcade is doing just the same post-Kickstarter as they did pre-Kickstarter too. I still haven't found this "new product" requirement anywhere on the Kickstarter page.
I actually DESPISE that kickstarter.
Bassicly for the same reason I'm mildily miffed by the BTP one.
It's also the reason I started that comment with "In Theory".
Bassicly for the same reason I'm mildily miffed by the BTP one.
Fair enough. Despise it all you want. I don't like it myself.
But it remains that neither of them violated any Kickstarter ToS.
You cannot really condemn people for doing projects that violate some sort of guidelines that you would like Kickstarter to have (but which it doesnt).
You don't find the project attractive? Fine, don't give em money.
But if you want to make a case that they violate some fundamental principle, you should back that up with some solid evidence.. especially if the project seems unsympathetic to you (and thus you're more likely to look at it with a certain negative bias).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: When a KS ends you don't get the money presto, so Penny Arcade cannot drop the ads just like that...
Doesn't matter.
Even if they do drop their ads at some point, it would hardly be a "new product" that some people claim is a sort of requirement for a KS in some shape or form.
Bassicly for the same reason I'm mildily miffed by the BTP one.
Fair enough. Despise it all you want. I don't like it myself.
But it remains that neither of them violated any Kickstarter ToS.
I wasn't saying it was a violation of the Kickstarter ToS. You are very much correct in that statement.
If you must know my personal opinion on the topic. I feel well it is not in violation, it is a manipulation of the ToS/the original goal of kickstarter as a idea. I can dislike it all I want, but I can't do much besides voice my displeasure about it. *Shrugs*
If you must know my personal opinion on the topic. I feel well it is not in violation, it is a manipulation of the ToS/the original goal of kickstarter as a idea. I can dislike it all I want, but I can't do much besides voice my displeasure about it. *Shrugs*
Alright. Fair enough. I might have misunderstood than.
I have the same feeling concerning DreadBall, who sent out lists for ordering stocks to retailers before they ever even launched the Kickstarter, as well as intentionally low-balling their KS goal to a ridiculously low level that couldn't ever have been the amount that would make or brake this game.
For what it is worth, I agree that BTP is likely going against the "original ideal" of Kickstarter; but they are hardly the first. Others like Mantic, Penny Arcade, etc.. have been manipulating it long before that. Companies like White Wolf do highly successful serial-Kickstarter for little other than pdfs of their 20-year old backlog of material.
The original sin was committed a long, long time ago, so it seems a bit late to chastise people now for taking it to the logical conclusion.
BrookM wrote: When a KS ends you don't get the money presto, so Penny Arcade cannot drop the ads just like that...
I certainly can't answer for other Kickstarters but when my ended I got the money the same day and it was available for withdrawal from my Amazon account that day too.
Personally I think the beauty of crowdfunding, and Kickstarter specifically, is that it is a service that allows me and you to decide if we like a project or not. To me this is the basic idea on which Kickstarter is based. Kickstarter (in my opinion) should only disallow projects that they feel are offensive (and to some extent even this is not really all that great because what is offensive to one is not offensive to another but it is necessary the way American culture works). I think outside of offensiveness Kickstarter should simply let us decide if we want to support something.
The overall theme of Kickstarter is to give consumers the POWER to back projects they want created. If BTP can get what they want from people that is a good thing. If you don't like their Kickstarter just do what I did and not pay it any attention. Just because I think it is a dumb idea doesn't mean someone else has to think it is a dumb idea. That right there is the beauty of crowdfunding. It gives you the power to decide if you want to support a project or not. We shouldn't be advocating that Kickstarter take that away from us.
I can't speak for anybody else, but I could care less about the terms of the Kickstarter TOS, which after all is just an agreement between KS and the company. Why should I care if somebody is using KS improperly?
The problem is that for all the intention that KS is not to be a pre-order device, it's shockingly good at that. And that doesn't bother me. I supported both the Manitc KoW and the Reaper bones Kickstarter. Yes, both companies intended to tackle the project regardless of the KS money. However, they greatly expanded the ranges due to the influx of money.
I don't look at KS as a way to fund a specific project. Instead, I see it as a way for a company to secure captial that they simply couldn't get otherwise. I look at my KoW and Bones pledges more like investments than anything. I gave them my money, and much later I will get a large return on that cash. It's obviously not a real security, but it's suprisingly close.
I think there are broadly two types of KS supporters. Early adopters that really like a project, and want to see it succeed, and the bandwagon jumpers that simply like the bargain prices. Reaper and Mantic's campaign were funded so early, the vast majority of pledges were simply pre-orders. I didn't think "man, I hope Reaper gets enough to make these bones." I thought, "I want those bones for that price, and I'm willing to wait for them."
And I really don't have a problem with that. It gives the customer a good price, and it gives the company great feedback as to how popular their idea is going to be. Even a large hobby company like Reaper is still a "small business" in the national economy. The only way a company like that could raise millions in captial is to bring in shareholders, who could dictate the direction of the company (See: Games Workshop).
The BTP Kickstarter is a little different. It appears that this isn't an attempt to raise capital to start or expand a range (or for reaper literally buy production equiptment), but simply an attempt to provide stop gap financing. I have not moral objection to it, but I can see the difference between this and Bones.
On a different note, the more I've run the numbers, the more that professional army painting seems economically unviable, assuming you are relying on full time employees. The price the public will pay is barely above minimum wage, and while the skills don't take long to develope compared to other skilled work, they are so specialized and pay so little nobody can afford to train up a workforce. Add in that you are competing with international painters and semi-professionals, and it's easy to see why the business model is flawed.
The one major advantage of a professional painter is that they are reliable, in terms of cost, getting the army back, and getting it in a timely fashion. I'm willing to bet that's the core of the BTP's customer base. For a lot of people, having it painted on time is more important than cost or quality.
I've done about 10ish commissions with them, a friend of mine has probably put two of his kids through college. So I'm pretty familiar with their work.
The friend I mentioned likes to put it this way. When it comes to professional painters you've got three things to look at. Cost, Quality, and Timeliness. BTP isn't exactly the best at any of them, but they're centerline of the three. Cost isn't exhorbitant, quality isn't the best, but it's decent, and timeliness is good. When I lived in Japan it would only take about 4-6 weeks from the time I shipped to the time I received, and it was bout 10 days each way in the mail.
Of all the commissions I did with them there was only one that I was truly unhappy with, and they corrected it immediately and gave me a product that I loved.
I can't argue for or against their business model, I don't know anything about it. But I can argue for their customer service, which is stellar. They provided a great service to me until I found a local painter who provided a better quality/cost product (timeliness sucks though). When I move I'll most likely go back to using them since my local painter will no longer be an option.
Wow, I am in shock. Read the posts on page 2-3 about Value for Money...
...
[rant]Those cultists probably took an hour to an hour and a half each when you include the cleaning/assembling/priming/painting/basing, and those prices also include the models themselves. So you're griping about a moderately skilled laborer making maybe $10 an hour, quite probably less, for doing a job you are unwilling or unable to do yourself. I don't know how things are in BTP's state (colorado?) but here in california that painter would be earning $8 an hour flipping burgers, pumping gas or washing cars and that takes no skill at all. Painting minis, even the tabletop standard blocking in the 3 colors+wash takes a fair bit of time and even the skeeviest apartments here rent for over $600 a month, let alone food & bills and god forbid you want money for things like going out. Your also self-employed and paying a high tax bracket because of it and that all comes due in April since there's no paycheck to spread a payroll tax out over.
Even those basic paintjobs take a degree of skill that you couldn't find from someone you hired off the street, I don't know why people expect to pay them less for their time than the guy making their food at McDonalds. For for every person you deal with that understands that, you get 5 who quote you prices from Sri Lanka expecting you to match them, and then get angry when the $3 paint jobs they wanted look like something you only spent 20 minutes on and all you see is the wasted potential of how awesome you COULD have made the figures if they'd even just been willing to spend as much on the paint as the minis themselves had cost to buy. And if you give them a little extra highlighting or basing for free, just to make it something you aren't ashamed of putting your name on, congradulations, you just included that level of work in your price every time you deal with that customer from then on and anyone he recomends you to, hope you like working for free.
$10 for a tabletop paintjob is a bargain. It's not cheap, not by a long shot, but consider how long it would have taken you to do the exact same result (IF you were even able to accomplish the exact same result) then also consider WHY you weren't willing (or able) to do it and take another look at the price tag. [/rant]
Heh, on all of this, I agree with you. I painted locally for years at the end of High School and afterwards, and through Uni to make a bit of extra cash here and there. I did paint better than BTP for their services, but then I was one young guy, not a business, not doing it to survive but for extra income. By the end, I would charge $60-80 for a character model or $120 for something like the Gran Theogonist's War Altar. As soon as I got a real job during uni, (in a printer's), I dropped commission painting like a hot turnip, because it simply wasn't worth the time for the amount of money. And all of my clients were pleasant, reasonable and very happy to pay what I asked.
Been following the Kickstarter with interest. Last week it was looking like it would easily be funded, as it was already over 20k in funding. I looked today and they are only up to 24k. It has stalled pretty bad. It looks like a lot of people feel the same way as I do and can't quite grasp the need to buy a boat load of miniatures for them to paint and then sell back to the community.
Well I thought I'd have a look and see how this was doing
Not so well, it's fallen to 22K (down 2K in 5 days)
apparently ex-employees have been saying bad things, this is what they said in the comments
"Blue Table Painting
We had some old employees go onto a lot of forums and say some pretty negative stuff, which hampered the momentum a lot. We have actually increased 1-4 pledgers every day, but a lot of the people who had high pledges in the 1-3,000 range have switched down. We would have passed our goal long ago if everything had stayed, but it just means we'll need to find more people! We'll just have to see what happens!"
I'm kind of surprised as there were a bunch of +ve and -ve things said around when the KS launched and they were still pulling in cash without too much problem
A serious question, though it would look like a joke if it wasn't such a painfully obvious issue.
When BTP sells "how to paint" dvds, will it come with a complementary "how to take blurry obscure photos" dvd?
Step 1: Smear vaseline on the lenses of some safety goggles.
Step 2: Put on the safety goggles.
Step 3: Paint a model somehow, use colours and stuff.
Step 4: Remove safety goggles.
Step 5: Kickstarter does not allow refunds.
grefven wrote: It saddens me when something like this attract a lot of money, while other, smaller miniature companies, struggle to get funded through KS. :(
The thing I find most mystifying is... why set the funding goal so high? I mean, other then a possible allusion to the major game system, putting it at $40k just seems foolish.
Buzzsaw wrote: The thing I find most mystifying is... why set the funding goal so high? I mean, other then a possible allusion to the major game system, putting it at $40k just seems foolish.
Reaper went for $30K and made $3.4 million.
BTP went for $40K . . . perhaps he wanted to pay off the building and buy an island or two.
I Definitely do not think it is all hurricane/holidays. Trollforged's Kickstarter, for example, had a steady upward climb the whole way, and then raised well over 50% of its' previous pledge total from day 30 on the final day (today).
Endless Fantasy also had a Fantastic final day , despite levelling off in the middle. The dip it suffered was only from a few backers dropping.
This KS, on the other hand, I do not think will surge like that towards the end. Perhaps they will make more incentives to cause it to reach funding level- but I don't think it will.
I can't think of a worse kickstarter to back, the rewards are minimal and the "project" doesn't really add anything to gaming as far as I can see. I don't wish any ill will to BTP. The are a private company and can do what they want I wouldn't put my money behind the project and would advise friends not to either.
I don't think this has anything to do with hurricanes, or even with angry ex-employees. I think people started talking about how absurd a concept it is to provide free capital for stock to a company that it was doomed to fail. Maybe they should have went the Indigogo route so they could have kept the money pledged even if the goal wasn't met.
man, this whole affair got real ugly, real fast...
hopefully it will die with a wimper, but i have a feeling there will be some more drama in a week when the Kickstarter ends in failure...
The endless moaning about the BTP kickstarter is so tiring. Complaining about something they don't have to give 1 red cent to? The Kickstarter is pretty well defined. Want a painted army? Donate X dollars. Simple. No different than the billions of products that people waste tons of money on every day on Kickstarter that end up as vapor. At least with BTP I would have pretty high confidence of return on the investment. Whether you love or hate their painting techniques is a whole other topic.
What is complicated about needing a hefty amount of capital to have a huge inventory of (insert any product or service here) pre-painted armies people can purchase? Who cares what we think about their estimate of how many armies are unpainted out there, or what the market is for this? They're the ones taking the risk, they get to find out whether this is viable or not. And to be honest they've got a billion times better idea than we do since, love him or hate him, Shawn has made a pretty legit business in an industry that is mostly comprised of 1 or 2 dudes in their garage making $8/hr or less painting minis. If someone had asked me if it was possible to employee 20-something people in a miniature painting business I would have laughed in their face. Well it seems they've made it happen, so I'll tend to believe them over some anonymous wargamer's armchair market analysis or invented idea over what types of services deserve funding..
At the end of the day I will not donate or ever use BTP's services (or any commission painter's services) because I paint my own armies, so I do not have a dog in the race. I just can't wait for the moaning to end.
fleetofclaw wrote: The Kickstarter is pretty well defined. Want a painted army? Donate X dollars. Simple.
Well, at some pledge levels that's what happens. At others, it's donate X dollars, then send them the models you want painted, plus a shipping fee*. you don't just 'get a painted army'.
They're the ones taking the risk,
What risk are they taking? They want the great gaming public to pay for it all!
You're giving them money to buy models for some else's army down the line, who'll of course also be paying for them, whilst you're supplying separate models for your own pledge level's work done. They apply a quick base coat and dip to all of it, trousering loads of cash in the process. There's nothing about this that doesn't seem like a Kickstarter cashgrab.
* in fact, almost all the pledge levels have a shipping fee regardless of location - do they really need to charge a $10k backer $10 for shipping?
I don't get it, why complain about people complaining about BTP? I've only seen it in two BTP related threads, which I went to by choice. Maybe I'm missing it, but I've not seen it spill out into any other threads.
It's like wearing uncomfortable shoes and then complaining about how uncomfortable they are. Take the shoes off!
I mean, yes, this gets into the pseudo-existential argument about if whining on the internet should be allowed. (Because as we know, all other forms of communication are full of nothing but positive, content driven material.)
But on a different note, I think there are some genuine problems with the kickstarter that the thread has revealed. Personally, I don't find the rewards "well defined." You are paying, up front, for the ability to later pick an army that was build and painted out of a template. So, not only is the reward very remote, it's also very vague. I mean, yes, in some ways "1500 points of warhammer" is a well defined product, but not to anybody that's remotely serious about warhammer.
Further, there is one nearly universal death knell for any business, and that's using cash for future orders to pay for past ones. Anybody that's been on Dakka for long enough remembers the Dropzone fiasco, and the current Maelstrom games shows that this trend hasn't died down. BTP isn't a fresh start up. It's been in business for many years, and if it's eating it's seed corn, it's unlikely that will make it to deliver on this KS.
Sure, the optimist thinks, "this influx of capital is just what BTP needs to get right!" The pragmatist asks if the cashflow woes are due to an acute incident (fire, theft, lawsuit) or due to a chronic condition (poor management, employee fraud, or a flawed business model.)
Count me among the latter. I have no ill will for the company, but even if they sold a product I wanted, I'd be leery about doing business with them.
Hey, the main reason I follow a good quarter of the threads that I do is for the shaudenfr... schaud... DAMN GERMANS! I bet their laughing at my anguish in trying to spell their fancy words right now!
fleetofclaw wrote:The endless moaning about the BTP kickstarter is so tiring. Complaining about something they don't have to give 1 red cent to? The Kickstarter is pretty well defined. Want a painted army? Donate X dollars. Simple. No different than the billions of products that people waste tons of money on every day on Kickstarter that end up as vapor. At least with BTP I would have pretty high confidence of return on the investment. Whether you love or hate their painting techniques is a whole other topic.
What is complicated about needing a hefty amount of capital to have a huge inventory of (insert any product or service here) pre-painted armies people can purchase? Who cares what we think about their estimate of how many armies are unpainted out there, or what the market is for this? They're the ones taking the risk, they get to find out whether this is viable or not. And to be honest they've got a billion times better idea than we do since, love him or hate him, Shawn has made a pretty legit business in an industry that is mostly comprised of 1 or 2 dudes in their garage making $8/hr or less painting minis. If someone had asked me if it was possible to employee 20-something people in a miniature painting business I would have laughed in their face. Well it seems they've made it happen, so I'll tend to believe them over some anonymous wargamer's armchair market analysis or invented idea over what types of services deserve funding..
At the end of the day I will not donate or ever use BTP's services (or any commission painter's services) because I paint my own armies, so I do not have a dog in the race. I just can't wait for the moaning to end.
One word. " "
Alpharius wrote:If BT had set their goal at $20K, they would have been successful!
Alpharius wrote: If BT had set their goal at $20K, they would have been successful!
Hard to believe, but they were undone by 40K...
I thought it was a fairly strange Kickstarter--and the paying for past orders with current cash certainly rings a lot of bells. Still, they must have a strong following---given that there's that much money being thrown at it.
Whether or not you thought this was a good idea, I do find certain of the posters here and elsewhere to be akin to the tricoteuse of the French Revolution.
Enemies huh? Ex-employees lifting the lid on his poor business practices and how little they are paid for their work now makes them enemies? Or those commenting here on the forum, for just saying the obvious - That the quality and service on offer isn't justifiable for the cost?
Besides the guy is a Libertarian fan. Wouldn't this be the free market speaking, and loudly?
yeah,
With 5 days to go it looks like he's thrown the towel in.
This should never have been a kick starter anyway I hope they realise that.
On the other hand seeking funding to make a tutorial DVD that could have been a winner.
I'm not sure what to make of BTP expecting a 40k boost to your day to day business via kickstarter and then calling/making enemies of those that call you out on it.
meh...
Panic wrote: yeah,
With 5 days to go it looks like he's thrown the towel in.
This should never have been a kick starter anyway I hope they realise that.
On the other hand seeking funding to make a tutorial DVD that could have been a winner.
I'm not sure what to make of BTP expecting a 40k boost to your day to day business via kickstarter and then calling/making enemies of those that call you out on it.
meh...
Panic...
As far as I understand now from the two topics, all their better painters have left. So I'm prety sure any number of the DVD's from cool mini or not would be a better vavlue for your money then anything BTP could put out.
yeah,
Didn't know they were losing their top painters... Sounds like bad news for a painting company.
What I was kinda getting at is if they had of done a kickstarter for 5k to make a DVD.
Lots of people would have supported them, wanted the DVD and placed $5-$100 KS backings.
Once the ball was rolling and the DVD production was receiving praise from the community and funding was secure 5K+, they could have placed some high value BTP options in the mix and we would not have reacted the way that we did as we would all be on side.
How many people complained that the mcVeys should not be selling their painting talents on KS ? .. none, we were all too distracted by the game.
Plus once funding was secure they could hire back their top painters...
So update. Some of our bigger backers got super excited and decided to just do their projects. They didn't want to wait. The truth of the matter is, that other than the DVD's, we can just help you guys with your project anyhow. You're always welcome to send a shout to bluetablepainting@gmail.com. To be honest with you, I think we did lose a little steam when we got so much bad publicity, that's just the way that happens. It's hard sometimes to stay really excited about something when you get a lot of negativity about it you know? There are so many of you that are so good to us, but on occasion those that are vocal and harsh are really quite loud.
Anyhow, we are still here and not going anywhere despite what some people, who I would rightly call enemies, would have you believe. We'll be here, doing what we do, for a long time. Send us an email and we'll get your order going. We'll just do the turbo army the old fashion way. One at a time. You'll have a lot less of a selection at first, but we'll get to where we're going one way or the other. Who knows, maybe some people will jump on here and pledge the other 20K, but either way, I hope we'll hear from you soon my friends.
You guys are so great! Talk to you soon. You don't have to worry about cancelling pledges or anything like that. If it doesn't fund, it doesn't fund. Plus if some of our great benefactors jump on, maybe it goes through after all!
-Robert
Some odd things in there, but... I do love a crowdfunding site!
I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.
12thRonin wrote: Or this shows what the market will bear out for their service for this. Personally, I can't believe they charge money but that's me.
You can't believe they charge money? For painting figures? Not sure what you're saying or suggesting here.
I find it funny that they charge money outside of materials for the quality they put out. Their quality is what you put out for a friend you're helping out who just wants to get something quick on the table. Their sample models are laughable for the quality level they charge. I would say that base and wash isn't that hard to do, but most of their work isn't even at that level based on their gallery. Most of it is barely a step above priming and detail. Minimal if any shading, sloppy lining, and it's just silly. Anyone who was going to throw $1-3k at this and then pulled back probably did so because they saw the pics of their work.
How many people complained that the mcVeys should not be selling their painting talents on KS ? .. none, we were all too distracted by the game.
The game was the product produced by the Kickstarter, the painting service was an add on premium reward. This is just a service (as opposed to a contained product, which is what KS was designed for). Its the difference between someone wanting money to invent a new type of lawnmower and offering landscaping as a reward after its put into production, and someone wanting money to buy lawnmowers and gas to open up their landscaping business and offering to sell you landscaping once they get going.
SickSix wrote: I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.
I can't believe people are still beyoching about "what kickstarter was designed for". It's made for crowdsource funding. If it doesn't belong up there then the site users will say so with their wallets (or lack there of).
Even using my browsers search function, the word "product" isn't mentioned once in these guidelines. Much less anything like "contained" or the like.
Why look, right here in point one:
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended.
Blue Table's goal here is to start a business selling off the shelf painted armies. There's no defined project here, they just want a load of start up cash so they can get stock in. They will then continue selling these armies.
BlueDagger wrote: I can't believe people are still beyoching about "what kickstarter was designed for". It's made for crowdsource funding. If it doesn't belong up there then the site users will say so with their wallets (or lack there of).
That pretty much sums it up nicely, and it is something I've been saying from the start!
If anyone feels that this project doesn't belong on kickstarter, there is a "report this" button on the bottom right side of the screen under the backers rewards levels.
Buzzsaw wrote: The thing I find most mystifying is... why set the funding goal so high? I mean, other then a possible allusion to the major game system, putting it at $40k just seems foolish.
Reaper went for $30K and made $3.4 million.
BTP went for $40K . . . perhaps he wanted to pay off the building and buy an island or two.
This is like the third site I have seen you bash BTP. I understand that you my not like BTP or Shawn but to go on so many sites and bash the guy is petty. All the while you have your paint studio in your post name or tag line or signature. Funny how that works I guess
While I didn't contribute nor do I plan too, I don't understand that people take joy in the fact that BTP did not hit their goal. Once again seems petty and low.
Kickstarter themselves. I get your lips are firmly sewn to Blue Tables ass like a sad human centipede, but this is clearly a service "paint other minis/mow lawns/cut hair" and not a project able to be completed. An individual mini sculpt project is complete when the mold is completed, and the mini itself finished and ready for sale. Painting other people's minis for them is never finished.
Since you seem to love semantics (the last bastion of the wrong), doubtless you'll try and argue that Reaper, Mantic, or whoever is just in the "service of sculpting and casting minis for people". However you don't seem to be having any luck convincing anyone but yourself to that point of view.
Wow. Much vitriol there.
Yes, I seem to be very much in the minority here as I see little qualitative difference between a Kickstarter to make sculpts and a kickstarter to make paintjobs. It continues to be an endless source of bewilderment for me why people take such (passionate?) effort to "define" what Kickstarter "is" (even in clear contradiction of what Kickstarter themself seem to do).
Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting. Will Reaper never make a new Bones sculpt beyond the KS?
To me, it doesn't seem to fit your logic, even if the project "stops" at a completed sculpt. If a company can continue to "sculpt" beyond the sculpts funded through Kickstarter or musicians can continue to "record" more albums beyond an album recorded with the help of KS, surely another company can continue to "paint" beyond the paint-jobs funded through Kickstarter, no?
Here's an interesting one. What about the AntiMatter Games "mini-kickstarter". Does this de-legitimize the DeepWars Kickstarter because they continue it with "more sculpts" (meaning it clearly wasn't a finished thing the first time around)? Is it "ok" because it is a "new" project (despite just being more miniatures on top of the old KS).
Similar for the Blackwater Gulch "Reinforcements" Kickstarter. Seems to blur the boundaries of what is a "finished" project quite a lot, or not? Could just be that they are stocking more designs for the injection moulding machines. No?
It also specifically violates their "no web business" rule.
"Projects, projects, projects. As in all categories, Kickstarter is for projects that can be completed, not things that require maintenance to exist. This means no e-commerce sites, web businesses, or social networking sites. (Yes, this means Kickstarter wouldn’t be allowed on Kickstarter. Funny, but true.) "
Everything on Kickstarter must be a project. A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it.
By definition, this means a product, not a service by your own acceptance of a service definition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Definition of a Service: Any act or performance offered that is essentially intangible and does not result in ownership of any thing"
Kickstarter has explicit categories for things like "performance art" or "public art". Go check them out.
Definition of a Service: Any act or performance offered that is essentially intangible and does not result in ownership of any thing"
This is a finished product.
Those are intangible and do not result in ownership of any thing. A public display of art. A theatre performance. Etc.. . By the definition you linked, they are services.
If you equate the use of the verb "produced" with a hard-and-fast criteria that excludes services, they'd all be in violation of KS ToS.
Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting.
Of course they will. Their Kickstarter was to get the game itself out (a finished product, or project that is over). It successfully funded, the stretch goals allowed them to get funding in for the releases for the near future. The BTP Kickstarter is for... stock. Some undefined armies they want to buy, roll into their business model, and sell on later.
I'm sorry you can't understand the difference (and keep challenging people to tell you what it is, then ignoring the responses). I guess it's all academic anyway seeing as this KS is going to fall flat on its face (and hopefully put off any similar potential KS cashgrabbers that were thinking of launching).
Anyhow, we are still here and not going anywhere despite what some people, who I would rightly call enemies, would have you believe. We'll be here, doing what we do, for a long time.
I love his comment about not going away. It reminded me of speeches made by the Axis leaders at the end of WWII. Well, from what I read so far this guy's ego is bigger than the sun but his management and business sense is smaller than an marble. My 2 cents, I'm out.
Those are intangible and do not result in ownership of any thing. A public display of art. A theatre performance. Etc.. . By the definition you linked, they are services.
Incorrect. Ownership of the public art would be with either the government or the administrators in charge of the space. Performance art is owned by who produces and holds the copyright on it. They both also result in an end product of either the work of art or the performance piece.
If you equate the use of the verb "produced" with a hard-and-fast criteria that excludes services, they'd all be in violation of KS ToS.
Buzzsaw wrote: The thing I find most mystifying is... why set the funding goal so high? I mean, other then a possible allusion to the major game system, putting it at $40k just seems foolish.
Reaper went for $30K and made $3.4 million.
BTP went for $40K . . . perhaps he wanted to pay off the building and buy an island or two.
This is like the third site I have seen you bash BTP. I understand that you my not like BTP or Shawn but to go on so many sites and bash the guy is petty. All the while you have your paint studio in your post name or tag line or signature. Funny how that works I guess
While I didn't contribute nor do I plan too, I don't understand that people take joy in the fact that BTP did not hit their goal. Once again seems petty and low.
I am honored that you singled me out to play the dragon to your Saint George.
Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting.
Of course they will. Their Kickstarter was to get the game itself out (a finished product, or project that is over). It successfully funded, the stretch goals allowed them to get funding in for the releases for the near future. The BTP Kickstarter is for... stock. Some undefined armies they want to buy, roll into their business model, and sell on later.
I'm sorry you can't understand the difference (and keep challenging people to tell you what it is, then ignoring the responses). I guess it's all academic anyway seeing as this KS is going to fall flat on its face (and hopefully put off any similar potential KS cashgrabbers that were thinking of launching).
True. BTP will fall on its face. But there will be other KS in the (what I believe to be) grey zone, I am certain. Some, like Penny Arcade, will be highly successful.
Infact, the unpopularity and ineptitude of BTP kinda obscures the question because people seem to have a hard time separating the question of stupidity/bad idea (which BTP's KS is without a doubt) and the question of whether or not there is some fundamental violation of basic principles.
Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting.
Of course they will. Their Kickstarter was to get the game itself out (a finished product, or project that is over). It successfully funded, the stretch goals allowed them to get funding in for the releases for the near future. The BTP Kickstarter is for... stock. Some undefined armies they want to buy, roll into their business model, and sell on later.
I'm sorry you can't understand the difference (and keep challenging people to tell you what it is, then ignoring the responses). I guess it's all academic anyway seeing as this KS is going to fall flat on its face (and hopefully put off any similar potential KS cashgrabbers that were thinking of launching).
True. BTP will fall on its face. But there will be other KS in the (what I believe to be) grey zone, I am certain. Some, like Penny Arcade, will be highly successful.
Infact, the unpopularity and ineptitude of BTP kinda obscures the question because people seem to have a hard time separating the question of stupidity/bad idea (which BTP's KS is without a doubt) and the question of whether or not there is some fundamental violation of basic principles.
Anyhow, we are still here and not going anywhere despite what some people, who I would rightly call enemies, would have you believe. We'll be here, doing what we do, for a long time.
I love his comment about not going away. It reminded me of speeches made by the Axis leaders at the end of WWII. Well, from what I read so far this guy's ego is bigger than the sun but his management and business sense is smaller than an marble. My 2 cents, I'm out.
Kickstarter themselves. I get your lips are firmly sewn to Blue Tables ass like a sad human centipede, but this is clearly a service "paint other minis/mow lawns/cut hair" and not a project able to be completed. An individual mini sculpt project is complete when the mold is completed, and the mini itself finished and ready for sale. Painting other people's minis for them is never finished.
Since you seem to love semantics (the last bastion of the wrong), doubtless you'll try and argue that Reaper, Mantic, or whoever is just in the "service of sculpting and casting minis for people". However you don't seem to be having any luck convincing anyone but yourself to that point of view.
Wow. Much vitriol there.
Yes, I seem to be very much in the minority here as I see little qualitative difference between a Kickstarter to make sculpts and a kickstarter to make paintjobs. It continues to be an endless source of bewilderment for me why people take such (passionate?) effort to "define" what Kickstarter "is" (even in clear contradiction of what Kickstarter themself seem to do).
Also, will Mantic stop making sculpts for DreadBall after the Kickstarter? I believe they announced a "Season 4", only starting with their final "Blaine" miniatures, so they'll keep on sculpting. Will Reaper never make a new Bones sculpt beyond the KS?
Those bones sculpts are complete. That's what the funding paid for, the sculpts to be made. Anything else is gravy. A hiarcutting/lawnmowing/painting business never is finished, because the business is open ended by nature.
To me, it doesn't seem to fit your logic, even if the project "stops" at a completed sculpt. If a company can continue to "sculpt" beyond the sculpts funded through Kickstarter or musicians can continue to "record" more albums beyond an album recorded with the help of KS, surely another company can continue to "paint" beyond the paint-jobs funded through Kickstarter, no?
Had the Blue Table project been to produce a DVD or another self contained project, then yes, they could have used the leftover money to fund their web business, buy paint, hamburgers or burn as they saw fit.
Here's an interesting one. What about the AntiMatter Games "mini-kickstarter". Does this de-legitimize the DeepWars Kickstarter because they continue it with "more sculpts" (meaning it clearly wasn't a finished thing the first time around)? Is it "ok" because it is a "new" project (despite just being more miniatures on top of the old KS).
New sculpts, new project. Simple as that.
Similar for the Blackwater Gulch "Reinforcements" Kickstarter. Seems to blur the boundaries of what is a "finished" project quite a lot, or not? Could just be that they are stocking more designs for the injection moulding machines. No?
New sculpts, new expansion, new project. "Help design a new lawnmower I will then sell you" is quite different than "Help buy me gas and lawnmowers so I can mow people's lawns". Its the difference between "fund a mural or movie" and "send me to art school so I can do art later, and I'll give you some".
It also specifically violates their "no web business" rule.
"Projects, projects, projects. As in all categories, Kickstarter is for projects that can be completed, not things that require maintenance to exist. This means no e-commerce sites, web businesses, or social networking sites. (Yes, this means Kickstarter wouldn’t be allowed on Kickstarter. Funny, but true.) "
Another crappy kickstarter doesnt make this one more legit IMO.
I'm also fairly curious why anyone backed it in the first place. "Pay money now to be eligible to buy a ready painted army later". Couldn't they just pay Blue Table to paint it now, and get it faster/cheaper?
Actually looking over how few people actually pledged for paint jobs, it appears most others thought the same thing.
SickSix wrote: I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.
To be fair, most businesses will at some stage collect some disgruntled former employees.
I find it funny that they charge money outside of materials for the quality they put out. Their quality is what you put out for a friend you're helping out who just wants to get something quick on the table. Their sample models are laughable for the quality level they charge. I would say that base and wash isn't that hard to do, but most of their work isn't even at that level based on their gallery. Most of it is barely a step above priming and detail. Minimal if any shading, sloppy lining, and it's just silly. Anyone who was going to throw $1-3k at this and then pulled back probably did so because they saw the pics of their work.
It may not be very good (I haven't looked closely, and their pricing sheet is offline atm) but it's effort and if you agree to it, then it's fair game. If I hire someone to come and paint my fence of mow my lawn, I don't get to bitch about how if I'd done it myself I could have done a better job. While I understand that this is the internets and hyperbole rules here, the comment is still pretty silly. Unless of course, you work for free at your job and they don't need to pay their staff, rent or utilities?
SickSix wrote: I find it ironic that he complains about former employees. Maybe if he ran a better business he wouldn't have to worry about disgruntled former employees.
To be fair, most businesses will at some stage collect some disgruntled former employees.
I find it funny that they charge money outside of materials for the quality they put out. Their quality is what you put out for a friend you're helping out who just wants to get something quick on the table. Their sample models are laughable for the quality level they charge. I would say that base and wash isn't that hard to do, but most of their work isn't even at that level based on their gallery. Most of it is barely a step above priming and detail. Minimal if any shading, sloppy lining, and it's just silly. Anyone who was going to throw $1-3k at this and then pulled back probably did so because they saw the pics of their work.
It may not be very good (I haven't looked closely, and their pricing sheet is offline atm) but it's effort and if you agree to it, then it's fair game. If I hire someone to come and paint my fence of mow my lawn, I don't get to bitch about how if I'd done it myself I could have done a better job. While I understand that this is the internets and hyperbole rules here, the comment is still pretty silly. Unless of course, you work for free at your job and they don't need to pay their staff, rent or utilities?
Not every company puts pressure on employees to defraud the IRS or willingly brakes labor laws and treats its employees poorly .plus if i hire somebody to do work for me then i have every right to complain if they do that job badly .if you hired a plumber who charged over the ods and did a rubbish job would you pay him/her ? word of mouth is very important to any business that's why you need to do good work for a decent price .also if i painted fences would it be ok for me to do a kickstarter looking for $40.000 claiming i want to paint even more fences and make more money ?
catachan1brainleaf wrote: .also if i painted fenceswebcomics would it be ok for me to do a kickstarter looking for $40.000$1.000.000 claiming i want to paint even more fenceswebcomics and make more money ?
catachan1brainleaf wrote: I take it there's a story to those comics and artwork right ? iv painted fences for a living and to be honest its not all that creative dude
Alright. So you'd have to paint them creatively to qualify for Kickstarter
orkybenji wrote: Since kickstarter has allowed the campaign to stay up would that not imply they approve of it and it doesn't violate their rules?
No. Kickstarter relies on the "crowd" to approve projects (by funding it or not). The do a cursory review but in no way "approve" projects. As we see here, the "rules" are so vague, they can do pretty much whatever they want. As kickstarter says, they just provide the platform for creators to communicate with backers. They are basically a pretty version of Craigslist for wacky ideas, non-secured and non-vetted capital investment, and preorders, without any risk or accountability for creators.
This is a really important point that I don't know if people realize about Kickstarter. The internet "bitching and moaning" critical to determine if projects are feasible. This is what Kickstarter relies on to cover their asses and insure non-feasible projects don't get funded... internet bile and rancor. A bit scary, isn't it?
well you'd have to sit down and write a story then come up with artwork for it which is an ongoing creative process .now either you cant tell the difference or you`re just being facetious.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: well you'd have to sit down and write a story then come up with artwork for it which is an ongoing creative process .now either you cant tell the difference or you`re just being facetious.
As you said. It's an ongoing process. That was the point.
People denied BTP legitimacy because it is not "a finished, concluded project". It's an ongoing service. They post a new comic strip every few days. BTP mails a new painted army every few days. No difference.
Yes, an artist making a comic strip needs to have thought ahead of time. As does a Barber doing a haircut (what style am I going for) or a miniature painter before painting a miniature (which colours will I chose, where do the highlights go, etc..)?
A gaming company will continue to make games. It can well be seen as an ongoing creative process where they continue to produce sculpts, rules, packaging, etc.. . Alternatively, every single miniature painted can be considered a separate, self-contained project. You start piecing it together, prime it, base-coat it, shade-it, highlight-it, seal-it. Project finished. Start next project.
The "line" you keep drawing between what is "a project" and what is "an ongoing process" isn't a fixed line. It is one open to interpretation. You may not agree with my interpretation of where the line might be drawn, but you haven't presented conclusive evidence that yours is objectively where it's at in a way that would, for example, hold up in court if company X would sue Kickstarter.com for unfair bias by canceling theirs but allowing others (Penny Arcade, Public Performance Art Dances, a batch of mini-sculpts for a pre-existing line like bones, whatever).
And people have also said that one kickstarter that didn't meet the guidelines doesn't justify more of them. Yet you keep on hammering that point over and over again.
The Kickstarter will fail, so other than people arguing the same points over and over again that have already been argued since page 1. November 25th can't really get here soon enough so that we can lock this thread.
d-usa wrote: And people have also said that one kickstarter that didn't meet the guidelines doesn't justify more of them. Yet you keep on hammering that point over and over again.
Sure it matters.
Penny Arcade isn't in violation of the Kickstarter ToS/Guidelines. Penny Arcade is in violation of what some people on this board claim are the Kickstarter ToS/Guidelines ("no open-ended, ongoing services"). Thus the existence of the Penny Arcade KS proves those claims wrong.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: well you'd have to sit down and write a story then come up with artwork for it which is an ongoing creative process .now either you cant tell the difference or you`re just being facetious.
As you said. It's an ongoing process. That was the point.
People denied BTP legitimacy because it is not "a finished, concluded project". It's an ongoing service. They post a new comic strip every few days. BTP mails a new painted army every few days. No difference.
Yes, an artist making a comic strip needs to have thought ahead of time. As does a Barber doing a haircut (what style am I going for) or a miniature painter before painting a miniature (which colours will I chose, where do the highlights go, etc..)?
A gaming company will continue to make games. It can well be seen as an ongoing creative process where they continue to produce sculpts, rules, packaging, etc.. . Alternatively, every single miniature painted can be considered a separate, self-contained project. You start piecing it together, prime it, base-coat it, shade-it, highlight-it, seal-it. Project finished. Start next project.
The "line" you keep drawing between what is "a project" and what is "an ongoing process" isn't a fixed line. It is one open to interpretation. You may not agree with my interpretation of where the line might be drawn, but you haven't presented conclusive evidence that yours is objectively where it's at in a way that would, for example, hold up in court if company X would sue Kickstarter.com for unfair bias by canceling theirs but allowing others (Penny Arcade, Public Performance Art Dances, a batch of mini-sculpts for a pre-existing line like bones, whatever).
man you seen set on dragging out this one issue to the point of spamming this tread with it . and ignoring the fact BTP claimed to be saving wargaming from a nonexistent threat which btw they themselves claim was the point of the kickstarter ,have admitted to braking tax & labor laws ,maltreatment of staff ,slander .out right lying,making false claims ,being deceitful to customers ,ebegging for paint and blinds which BTP can write off anyway,generating fake trade via kickstarter kickbacks and many other things .
sure the whole kickstarter thing may be a rather grey line to some people (and one which you seem set on widening ) but do you really think gamers should give their hard earned cash to BTP ?
It may not be very good (I haven't looked closely, and their pricing sheet is offline atm) but it's effort and if you agree to it, then it's fair game. If I hire someone to come and paint my fence of mow my lawn, I don't get to bitch about how if I'd done it myself I could have done a better job. While I understand that this is the internets and hyperbole rules here, the comment is still pretty silly. Unless of course, you work for free at your job and they don't need to pay their staff, rent or utilities?
If I pay for a service and they do a piss poor job of it, I absolutely have the right to complain. Otherwise every business can get away with shoddy worksmanship. There's no internet hyperbole here. Go look at the pictures before you spring back to defend their quality. Sure, there are some acorns in there but that hog's going to starve looking for it.
man you seen set on dragging out this one issue to the point of spamming this tread with it . and ignoring the fact BTP claimed to be saving wargaming from a nonexistent threat which btw they themselves claim was the point of the kickstarter ,have admitted to braking tax & labor laws ,maltreatment of staff ,out right lying,making false claims ,being deceitful to customers ,ebegging for paint and blinds which BTP can write off anyway,generating fake trade via kickstarter kickbacks and many other things .
sure the whole kickstarter thing may be a rather grey line to some people (and one which you seem set on widening ) but do you really think gamers should give their hard earned cash to BTP ?
I am not disputing any of those.
I certainly don't recommend anyone to spend money on the BTP Kickstarter. Where did you read that one?
BTP did a lot of gak, and they rightly deserve to be called out for it.
I am just saying that going against the Kickstarter ToS/Philosophy was not one of BTP's blunders, though there are sure as hell plenty of others they are fully guilty of.
But there is more or less two stances on this.
Stance A: Anything is allowed on KS.. people will simply vote with their wallets. If that is true, BTP is allowed to make their pitch. As would be the fence-painter, haircutter, whatever. Money will come or it wont. Infact, the backlash BTP got may just prove that this sort of "self-correcting" system is working quite well.
Stance B: There are certain benchmarks/rules a KS must fulfill to be a "legitimate" KS.
If "B" is the case, than it could well be that there are great fundraising-projects by great people with great ideas, that would still not be "legitimate", as would, inversely, be the existance gakky projects, by gakky people having gakky ideas, that nevertheless don't violate these guidelines. If you lean towards Stance B, BTP is (I argue) of the latter kind. You can't mix questions of legitimacy with questions of "sympathy". Rules have to apply to everyone equally. BTP seems to have violated IRS rules. But they didn't violate Kickstarter-rules.
I've been keeping the occasional eye on their doomed Kickstarter, and it seems someone thought adding this comment (for backers only) was worth the dollar:
jimmy about 10 hours ago
just finished reading all of the comments from tabletop gaming news about this kickstarter and the great working conditions and i just had to donate a dollar to this project. I am sure you will get that $22,000 in the next four days. Good luck don't let the former employees talking about your working conditions and financial situation get you down!
Funny, everyone seems to be mixing their views of BTP with whether or not their KS breaches some nebulous KS guidelines.
And this BTP tax fraud thing. Wasn't that just about how his employees should declare their contracts with him? In what...2006?
Have you ever worked for someone while also on commission with them and declared it to your version of the IRS? It's a fragging nightmare, that you are an employee and now receiving commission pay which is sortof, but ofcourse not exactly, like overtime in a business model that is most likely unfamiliar to whomever is receiving your documents.
I know nothing of the specifics of BTP's situation save for the snippets that've been posted. My understanding was that it was just some shenanigans to attempt to streamline things.
If anyone knows exactly what happened, please enlighten us.
BTP had employees down as contractors instead of employees and tried to pressure them into defrauding the IRS buy going along with this and that's why some of them left BTP .now you`re prob asking well why does it matter if your an employee or a contractor surely its all the same right ? well its not and there are rules on what counts as an employee v contractor .basically BTP wanted to pressure its staff into braking the law so they could (A, pay less tax to the IRS & B avoid the US labor laws which are there to protect employees)
Protocon,
You may want to go back a couple of pages. One of the ex-employees pointed out that the problem wasn't just in the fact that hey had to work as independant contractors (which would mean they'd work for at least 2 work givers) but that at the sime time they had to sign a non competition agreement meaning they can't work for anyone else. See the irony there?
PrOtOcoN wrote: Funny, everyone seems to be mixing their views of BTP with whether or not their KS breaches some nebulous KS guidelines.
And this BTP tax fraud thing. Wasn't that just about how his employees should declare their contracts with him? In what...2006?
Have you ever worked for someone while also on commission with them and declared it to your version of the IRS? It's a fragging nightmare, that you are an employee and now receiving commission pay which is sortof, but ofcourse not exactly, like overtime in a business model that is most likely unfamiliar to whomever is receiving your documents.
I know nothing of the specifics of BTP's situation save for the snippets that've been posted. My understanding was that it was just some shenanigans to attempt to streamline things.
If anyone knows exactly what happened, please enlighten us.
Until then, less strawmanning please.
Have you read this entire thread? Truly?
It's stated fairly clearly that employees brought to Shawn the CORRECT TAX CODE and were told they were wrong and that the subject would not be broached again.
Please avoid ignorant posts without reading the thread, or at least searching it.
Sure, I read the thread.
I also didn't see any data, I didn't see any transcripts, I didn't see anything other than cries of tax fraud.
Afaik the matter was even settled by BTP and is not ongoing...It WAS ALSO IN 2006!
May wanna try abit harder to find a justification for hating. I prefer you just saying that you dislike them instead of this rather lame attempt at making them out to be some corrupt villains.
Seems rather ad hominem to me.
What does a matter involving the tax side of BTP have to do with their KS?
Also, why the hell are people so set against them? I'd get it if they were some super creepy dudes using child labor and the blood of innocents and were continously breaching tax laws and being dicks all around...Right now we have, 'I think their work is gak' and 'Tax shenanigans in 2006".
k.
Hold the presses, I think I just saw someone jaywalk out here, I'll be back with the story.
It matters because its a far cry from the happy shiny image BTP is relying on to blagg $40.000 from wargamers and im a wargamer .clearly you think its ok to treat people like dirt as long as your ok .
Prior to this thread, I did not know about their tax practices. Or quality of work due to blurry pictures. Or their treatment of their employees.
After this thread, in which I have read statements from former employees, current employees, and industry professionals, I have gained a better understanding of the company and it's practices, both current and previous.
How does this affect the kickstarter? It affects it in that it has changed my understanding of the company as a whole, and has changed my opinion of the kickstarter of the company in turn.
Belittling those that gain some insight from this thread and the things that have come to light because of it is not only arbitraily dismissive, but rather narrow minded.
A company's past practices will always have some bearing on it's future. Would you help kickstart Enron if they came back tomorrow? Or maybe Redstarone?
Extreme examples, and in no way comparisons to Blue Table, but do you see the logic?
gunslingerpro wrote: Prior to this thread, I did not know about their tax practices. Or quality of work due to blurry pictures. Or their treatment of their employees.
After this thread, in which I have read statements from former employees, current employees, and industry professionals, I have gained a better understanding of the company and it's practices, both current and previous.
How does this affect the kickstarter? It affects it in that it has changed my understanding of the company as a whole, and has changed my opinion of the kickstarter of the company in turn.
Belittling those that gain some insight from this thread and the things that have come to light because of it is not only arbitraily dismissive, but rather narrow minded.
A company's past practices will always have some bearing on it's future. Would you help kickstart Enron if they came back tomorrow? Or maybe Redstarone?
Extreme examples, and in no way comparisons to Blue Table, but do you see the logic?
Maybe it's the cynic in me, maybe it's my experience with Icelandic businesses that is causing my confusion here...but really?
This is a dealbreaker for people? Some tax shenanigans in 2006? I'd get it if it was tax fraud right NOW. Like, some data was uncovered about how they're scamming the system and such.
But this is old hat...it's been dealt with (clearly, IRS does not just drop a case where it can get monies). So either it was settled, there was a fine or whatever and now it's 6 years later.
I mean, I paid back taxes 2004 due to misreported contractor work. I'm clearly a spooky dude who should be mistrusted...right? With that sort of thing hanging over me I'm lucky people don't lynch me in the streets. I just wish they'd branded me right there since I clearly had intent to maliciously defraud the state.
Or so it would seem from what people seem to think about tax declaration on here.
@gunslingerpro Certainly right, if BTP was Enron and they were asking for money I'd be wary due to what went on with them. But we have mutliple accounts of what is happening at BTP. Current AND past employee stories conflict. In both details and general tone and content. People have both posted what look like some really shoddy commission work and some really awesome commission pieces.
I could care less about BTP. I'm in Iceland, I do my own commission thing, They're one of the many Youtube channels I watch, which is why I even know anything about them.
The lack of source analysis and blatant strawmanning here is just so sickening I decided to comment.
It's not just the tax shenannigens.
It's also trying to force your employees to break the tax laws and thereby putting them at a big risk of getting in trouble with the irs. Which is why some brought it up and decided not to follow btp's 'guidelines' regarding it , for as far as i understoof from earlier posts.
I couldn't really give an arse about it if it were just the company doing it (the irs will catch on sooner or later most of the time anyways) but its the putting their employees at risk that irks me greatly.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: It matters because its a far cry from the happy shiny image BTP is relying on to blagg $40.000 from wargamers and im a wargamer .clearly you think its ok to treat people like dirt as long as your ok .
True.
But the inverse is also a question worth asking.
If there are so many good, solid reasons that can and should be held against BTP (tax fraud, mistreating employers, tricking customers, plain hubris and stupidity), why is it that one of the reasons forwarded most frequently and most passionately is the by far least sustainable one; one riding on some biased interpretation of vague Kickstarter guidelines?
It's not like BTP-critics are lacking lots of good and solid ammunition to sink their KS and business with well-deserved, righteous fury, even without breaking into the what "should be" and what "should not be" on Kickstarter discussion.
And yet they do. Which is the more interesting question IMO.
Everyone agrees that BTP doesn't deserve money. Nothing really further to discuss.
But what makes people so passionate about constructing their minds-version of "Kickstarter.com" and to crusade so doggedly across Internet-boards to defend that "vision"?
It`s not just about dodging $`s in unpaid tax its also about the treatment of his staff and the fact he could doge labor laws which are there to protect employees .and that's just a small part of the reason people are so angry .you are the one coming on here and then fixating on the tax issue when there are many more damning points to BTP aside from diddling the IRS .
PrOtOcoN wrote: Maybe it's the cynic in me, maybe it's my experience with Icelandic businesses that is causing my confusion here...but really?
This is a dealbreaker for people? Some tax shenanigans in 2006? I'd get it if it was tax fraud right NOW. Like, some data was uncovered about how they're scamming the system and such.
But this is old hat...it's been dealt with (clearly, IRS does not just drop a case where it can get monies). So either it was settled, there was a fine or whatever and now it's 6 years later.
I mean, I paid back taxes 2004 due to misreported contractor work. I'm clearly a spooky dude who should be mistrusted...right? With that sort of thing hanging over me I'm lucky people don't lynch me in the streets. I just wish they'd branded me right there since I clearly had intent to maliciously defraud the state.
Or so it would seem from what people seem to think about tax declaration on here.
@gunslingerpro
Certainly right, if BTP was Enron and they were asking for money I'd be wary due to what went on with them.
But we have mutliple accounts of what is happening at BTP. Current AND past employee stories conflict. In both details and general tone and content. People have both posted what look like some really shoddy commission work and some really awesome commission pieces.
I could care less about BTP. I'm in Iceland, I do my own commission thing, They're one of the many Youtube channels I watch, which is why I even know anything about them.
The lack of source analysis and blatant strawmanning here is just so sickening I decided to comment.
To be fair, the tax issue is still decently relevant for the next year or so. The statute of limitations on tax issues is normally three years, except in the cases where the parties are willingly and knowingly filing incorrect tax returns, which makes it a 6 year statute of limitations. Telling your employees to put down one thing when they should be putting down another thing falls under that. Shaun may have taken care of the tax issue, but it's still relevant.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: It matters because its a far cry from the happy shiny image BTP is relying on to blagg $40.000 from wargamers and im a wargamer .clearly you think its ok to treat people like dirt as long as your ok .
True.
But the inverse is also a question worth asking.
If there are so many good, solid reasons that can and should be held against BTP (tax fraud, mistreating employers, tricking customers, plain hubris and stupidity), why is it that one of the reasons forwarded most frequently and most passionately is the by far least sustainable one; one riding on some biased interpretation of vague Kickstarter guidelines?
It's not like BTP-critics are lacking lots of good and solid ammunition to sink their KS and business with well-deserved, righteous fury, even without breaking into the what "should be" and what "should not be" on Kickstarter discussion.
And yet they do. Which is the more interesting question IMO.
Everyone agrees that BTP doesn't deserve money. Nothing really further to discuss.
But what makes people so passionate about constructing their minds-version of "Kickstarter.com" and to crusade so doggedly across Internet-boards to defend that "vision"?
I think everybody has their own outlook on what kickstarter is for and how it should be defined .i think we`d both agree on that ? also if kickstarter itself is rather grey about what constitutes a creative project there may be a reason for that ie money .personally im not into kickstarters or the morass of other projects going on over there .i can only give my opion of this one and why i am against it .
What i see is workers artists gamers being exploited to staff BTP .gamers being conned by naff pictures and gately`s deceitfulness into buying an over priced shabby looking product .and now gamers being expected to dig them out of a financial hole by gaining them fake trade via kickstarter .i understand kinda what your saying but that doesn't excuse how BTP are trying to exploit it .and if projects like this are let fly by kickstarter then maybe gamers need to be more careful about what they throw that hard earned cash at .there are almost centenly other projects on there id also disagree with .but this is the one i know about and the one which gets to me most as a wargamer .
Alfndrate
I'm even more confused now. What does legal statue of limitation have to do with this?
So late 2013 if someone brings it up, the fact that they're past the prosecution limit somehow makes this a non-issue?
I thought that was all about how them being associated with this makes them the bad guy forever.
catachan1brainleaf
I was actually looking at your post about tax fraud when I decided to reply. I'm not fixated on tax fraud, per se. I'm simply pointing at one of the many complaints being brought up and taking a long hard look at it since it seems to follow the same pattern as everything else; blatant logical fallacy and lack of source analysis.
I realize you don't want me to talk about it since it makes you look silly. So I'll continue, I guess since you are being silly.
I'm really weirded out by how people need to justify their dislike with gak like this. If you don't like something you don't like it. Simple.
The bandwagoning and acceptance of everything the supposed former employees are saying is also worrying. It'd be like if I said "Shawn said he's revolutionizing the wargaming industry, therefore it is true". Or 'Since Rob said everything is fine, everything is fine".
Just because they are contrary, doesn't make them a more reliable source...which is one of the main problems for me in all this.
I find the rage about KS guidelines and such to be spawned from the same gakkery.
It also makes any legitimate reports of fraud or shoddy worksmanship on their behalf hard to sort away from the gak. Not helpful.
PrOtOcoN wrote: Alfndrate I'm even more confused now. What does legal statue of limitation have to do with this? So late 2013 if someone brings it up, the fact that they're past the prosecution limit somehow makes this a non-issue?
I thought that was all about how them being associated with this makes them the bad guy forever.
Well if it was the 2006 tax year, it would be dealt with in 2007 (as we file taxes in April for the year before). This means that they would have till April 2013 or so until they couldn't touch the issue. My reasoning behind bringing up the tax fraud issue is this: Much like Hostess who has had a decade of bad management and because of issues on both sides has had to shut its doors, this tax fraud issue shows that there are management missteps on Shaun and BTP's part that might make you feel a little worried about your project. So we have tax issues in the past, we also have the fact that people have said that he's using current projects to pay for past ones (again, another mismanagement on Shaun's part).
These things seem like they're not the happy, shiny people that Shaun makes his company out to be, and there are serious concerns. Why would I want to pay a few grand for an army and have that money go to someone else's project, forcing me to wait until the next guy comes in an drops a few grand.
PrOtOcoN wrote: Alfndrate
I'm even more confused now. What does legal statue of limitation have to do with this?
So late 2013 if someone brings it up, the fact that they're past the prosecution limit somehow makes this a non-issue?
I thought that was all about how them being associated with this makes them the bad guy forever.
catachan1brainleaf
I was actually looking at your post about tax fraud when I decided to reply. I'm not fixated on tax fraud, per se. I'm simply pointing at one of the many complaints being brought up and taking a long hard look at it since it seems to follow the same pattern as everything else; blatant logical fallacy and lack of source analysis.
I realize you don't want me to talk about it since it makes you look silly. So I'll continue, I guess since you are being silly.
I'm really weirded out by how people need to justify their dislike with gak like this. If you don't like something you don't like it. Simple.
The bandwagoning and acceptance of everything the supposed former employees are saying is also worrying. It'd be like if I said "Shawn said he's revolutionizing the wargaming industry, therefore it is true". Or 'Since Rob said everything is fine, everything is fine".
Just because they are contrary, doesn't make them a more reliable source...which is one of the main problems for me in all this.
I find the rage about KS guidelines and such to be spawned from the same gakkery.
It also makes any legitimate reports of fraud or shoddy worksmanship on their behalf hard to sort away from the gak. Not helpful.
Ah man to be honest i couldn't care less what you talk about since it doesn't change a thing and you`re just looking to pick a fight now.have fun living in your own wee world there man .
@Alfndrate
Makes sense you'd have those concerns.
For all I know BTP is committing tax fraud as we speak, which I'd not be ok with were I considering them for my project.
They, however, seem to have quite good turnaround time (just going by their word ofcourse, It'd be handy to have more feedback from people that've experienced it), so I see some contradictions in what's being stated as fact to what goes on within the company.
I work at a gaming store myself. We don't have a similar business model in any way to BTP. However, some of the things they do sound familiar. Here in Iceland it's the shipping, customs and VAT that kills you, so orders are pooled as much as possible and shipped as cheaply as possible.
This leads to calls for, say, FW orders and a need for lots of 'pre-ordering' if people want to get their items on time. Especially when dealing with companies like GW and their DO order limits, this is almost a necessity.
From a neutral point of view? It matters because it hurts their credibility, and even if it happened in the past it doesn't mean it goes away. Most consumers would want to trust the services they're getting, and if your company does or did illegal things, it'll put a dent on your credibiilty. It's just a fact.
If I know someone who cheated on his girlfriend 6 years ago, I'll be inclined to be reluctant/opposed if my sister started dating him: it doesn't matter if he did that in the past, nor if he's prone on doing it again. His credibility has already been damaged because of that.
No matter what you do, people, especially those who are not close to you (and for a company, that's most of your consumer base), will not forget your mistakes. Especially nowadays when it's easy to google a company and see how others view them.
PrOtOcoN wrote: @Alfndrate
Makes sense you'd have those concerns.
For all I know BTP is committing tax fraud as we speak, which I'd not be ok with were I considering them for my project.
They, however, seem to have quite good turnaround time (just going by their word ofcourse, It'd be handy to have more feedback from people that've experienced it), so I see some contradictions in what's being stated as fact to what goes on within the company.
I work at a gaming store myself. We don't have a similar business model in any way to BTP. However, some of the things they do sound familiar. Here in Iceland it's the shipping, customs and VAT that kills you, so orders are pooled as much as possible and shipped as cheaply as possible.
This leads to calls for, say, FW orders and a need for lots of 'pre-ordering' if people want to get their items on time. Especially when dealing with companies like GW and their DO order limits, this is almost a necessity.
catachan1brainleaf wrote: .also if i painted fenceswebcomics would it be ok for me to do a kickstarter looking for $40.000$1.000.000 claiming i want to paint even more fenceswebcomics and make more money ?
At least with painted fences (or miniatures), you'd have something akin to a physical product in the end.
False equivalent. The equivalent would be if they wanted to set up a studio to draw/produce other people's webcomics for them. Its the difference between funding a film (or series of films), and funding a film company.
I mean, I paid back taxes 2004 due to misreported contractor work. I'm clearly a spooky dude who should be mistrusted...right? With that sort of thing hanging over me I'm lucky people don't lynch me in the streets. I just wish they'd branded me right there since I clearly had intent to maliciously defraud the state.
Or so it would seem from what people seem to think about tax declaration on here.
The lack of source analysis and blatant strawmanning here is just so sickening I decided to comment.
Ironic that strawmanning is sickening to you, while you're doing the same thing (and then discussing your icelandic methods of painting and game store running.) It's not about you. Or how you run your business.
I could care less about BTP. I'm in Iceland, I do my own commission thing, They're one of the many Youtube channels I watch, which is why I even know anything about them.
See you may not care, you paint on your own and live far away. But these facts are a big deal to us who may have been considering his services. Companies live and die on their reputation. That's what's being changed here.
You keep asking for data and source verification, but Shawn has been quoted on here MULTIPLE times. As for the other employees, of course they are not giving depositions. This isn't a criminal court. It's the court of public opinion. What you call 'bandwagoning' is in fact a sway in public opinion as more things come to light.
False.
If anything, me bringing up my own situation is abit of a 'Red Herring', but it certainly isn't a strawman. I haven't constructed an arguement or definition which is easier to attack or defend. I've also made abit of a reductio ad absurdum or perhaps rather a Loaded Question since the answer is assumed in its delivery.
Point remains however, that tax interactions we know next to nothing about save for the topic is not only being assumed as having been performed with malicious intent, but that this remains or is indicative of a larger problem.
Other employees HAVE said what they think and given a positive spin on things.
Should we trust it because it's positive? No, ofcourse not it's a highly biased source...just like the comments of disgruntled ex-workers. That they are inconsistent is the reason to distrust both sources since one is not inherently more trustworthy than the other.
Calling wild speculation and presumed intent 'discovery', is kinda sad.
Everybody loves to join in on a beating and kicking a man when hes down. Just like when the Hulkster dropped the Leg on Randy Savage at Bash at the Beach 96.
Seriously, I've enjoyed reading all these hate threads. Maybe its the sadist in me. I always found BTP a bit pretentious though. I never thought their work was that good for what they charge. I must not be alone, seems like most people are jumping on the hate train. The whole kickstarter theme was/is just a catalyst. But hey, what do I know.
I have a question, I've read through both threads as well as the news one but I'm not actually finding any factual evidence. Just a lot of he said she said type stuff. How exactly are we supposed to know if this isn't just a case of disgruntled workers? I do watch there YouTube channel and enjoy it but I'm not a customer. There seems to be a lot of contrary information on both sides and trying to paint Shawn as some type of "Dr Evil" esc guy just doesn't seem fit to me.
As far as quality goes that's hard to say, the price does seem pretty high at least to me, especially knowing that multiple people will be working on your project so consistency may be an issue. Realistically for me though it kinda makes since. He's got a business for painting minis. That's a small market made even smaller by the fact that a small percentage of the gaming community could afford to do it. So in order to make money he needs to crank out models as fast as possible. Meaning he needs a lot if painters for min wage jobs. Not really any way around it that I can see. The prices are just what doesn't make since to me. For something as basic as their version of table top I would think it would be something cheaper.
I will say I think the pictures need to be as clear and acurate as you can make them so the customer is on the same page.
I have read that, again I'm not really seeming much other than they didn't use KS appropriately according to some people. How do we know this isn't a disgruntled employee problem. I can say I'm the king of England if I want but doesn't make it so.
A lot of want I'm seeing is just opinion and not really based on facts. Everyone's idea of quality is different. What I think looks good for table top might look terrible to you or above table top.
I don't know I just don't like that MUDs being slung about for very little evidence. Especially here on dakka from some posters that are usually the first people looking for actual proof and posting it.
wowsmash wrote: I have a question, I've read through both threads as well as the news one but I'm not actually finding any factual evidence. Just a lot of he said she said type stuff. How exactly are we supposed to know if this isn't just a case of disgruntled workers? I do watch there YouTube channel and enjoy it but I'm not a customer. There seems to be a lot of contrary information on both sides and trying to paint Shawn as some type of "Dr Evil" esc guy just doesn't seem fit to me.
As far as quality goes that's hard to say, the price does seem pretty high at least to me, especially knowing that multiple people will be working on your project so consistency may be an issue. Realistically for me though it kinda makes since. He's got a business for painting minis. That's a small market made even smaller by the fact that a small percentage of the gaming community could afford to do it. So in order to make money he needs to crank out models as fast as possible. Meaning he needs a lot if painters for min wage jobs. Not really any way around it that I can see. The prices are just what doesn't make since to me. For something as basic as their version of table top I would think it would be something cheaper.
I will say I think the pictures need to be as clear and acurate as you can make them so the customer is on the same page.
The proof is Shawn himself. He has admitted to some of the issues, but also pay attention to what he doesn't say. He hasn't denied much of anything being discussed, he either tries to gloss over them or ignors them all together. That should tell you a lot.
I don't hate Shawn, I liked him for a while, I just got sick and tired of people buying into all his BS and his begging. It was embarassing when I worked there and this whole kickstarter was just too much, and I think people have the right to know who and what they may be getting involved with.
wowsmash wrote: Especially here on dakka from some posters that are usually the first people looking for actual proof and posting it.
Do they? Lol. Roughly 60% of Dakka is dedicated to the evil conspiracy of hobbyist-hater No. 1 Games Workshop and their tireless crusade to drive all wargamers out of the hobby and its own business into the ground as fast as humanly possible, all evidence to the contrary.
wowsmash wrote: Especially here on dakka from some posters that are usually the first people looking for actual proof and posting it.
Do they? Lol. Roughly 60% of Dakka is dedicated to the evil conspiracy of hobbyist-hater No. 1 Games Workshop and their tireless crusade to drive all wargamers out of the hobby and its own business into the ground as fast as humanly possible, all evidence to the contrary.
wowsmash wrote: I generally don't do the read between the lines thing just because you might be wrong.
As for the begging I'm confused I've watched the utube vids for a year now and I don't remember him begging for anything.
You must have missed him begging for fans to donate money for paint for the studio(house paint) and later for blinds.
Go here and scroll down about 3/4 to the entry below "Dream Journal" (next entry after the bus photo) to his "write your own ticket" entry. He writes about needing shoes and includes his shoe size:
None of this is technically begging, but I think it is close.
There was, however, one really wierd YouTube video posted by Shawn that was begging. It was back in late July or early August of this year. He posted a video very early in the morning saying that he was in a tight spot and needed money. The exact amounts and times escape me, but it went something like "I'm in a really tight spot. I need $2,800.00 wihtin the next 3 hours . . ." He was clearly distressed and near tears. The video was removed after a few hours. Anyone else see that one?
I think that the people who understand manipulative people the best are the ones that have been manipulated. I am embarassed to admit that I bought what Shawn was selling. But I really am not here because I am vengeful. I chalked my BTP experience up as another lesson learned.
I am here so that no one else has to go through what I went through. Is that so hard to understand?
By the way, I'm also the guy that gave him the 30 (all name brand) aloha shirts.
I think that the people who understand manipulative people the best are the ones that have been manipulated. I am embarassed to admit that I bought what Shawn was selling. But I really am not here because I am vengeful. I chalked my BTP experience up as another lesson learned.
I am here so that no one else has to go through what I went through. Is that so hard to understand?
By the way, I'm also the guy that gave him the 30 (all name brand) aloha shirts.
Mate, you've posted on this forum 30 times, every one about this company, the owner and how he's the spawn of satan but you don't hold a grudge.
It's starting to get stale.
His nefarious plot to get money for his business has been foiled, ease down and perhaps contribute something other than your moral crusade to our forum.
I checked the $10,000 pledge rewards. It includes some 'life coaching' from Shawn, some DVDs and other stuff. Ironicly, they ask for an extra $10 to be included in the pledge for shipping and handling of the DVDs after you've already given them $10,000.
In all fairness asking for $25 shipping on a $5000 pledge isn't all that exceptional on KS. I don't get it either but on the other hand it's not as if that last bit of cash will make a difference to the pledger anyway
To any and all that have recently played the "maybe it's just disgruntled employees" card:
Exactly what kind of 'proof' would satisfy you? On the TGN thread, Shawn confirmed he was investigated by the IRS and as a result had to pay fines close to 50% of his yearly income <- his words. This was after Robert, BTPs marketing rep, tried to dismiss the issue with a 98.9% erroneous explanation.
Shawn did artfully dodge actual admission of guilt by saying "If I did anything wrong, I sure paid for it."
He obviously wasn't investigated by the IRS because his painters didn't like having deadlines; he was investigated by the IRS, and subsequently fined, because he was not managing his business within IRS rules and regulations. What's unclear about that?
You're questioning the validity of already verified, investigated, and resolved claims.
Personally, I applaud skepticism, but this insistence on not acknowledging established factual history is just not rational.
I'm not advising people to avoid BTP, I'm not cheering for the failure of the KS project, I'm not hating, and I'm not concerned enough with Shawn or BTP to be considered an 'enemy.' I just want to ensure that actual facts are available for those that like things like actual facts.
where they eat?
