62815
Post by: LibrarianJaymez
Hey there,
Me and a friend have been discussing this for a little while now and does using the Tau's markerlights versus a flyer actually help?
In the Rulebook FAQ it says that Tau markerlights don't affect a units BS but since the markerlight needs to hit for a seeker to be fired, would that still fire at BS5 or BS1?
Thanks in advance
65926
Post by: Backlash
It would still be fired at BS1 The flier section states shots against fliers can only be resolved as snapshots unless the model or weapon has the skyfire special rule. As nothing states seeker missiles have skyfire it can only be fired as snapshot. Doesnt match the fluff i know, but its what the current rules and FAQ state.
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Post by: Mechnomancer
Tau FAQ says BS 5.
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Post by: Happyjew
Correct, it is fired at BS5, but resolved at BS1.
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Post by: Backlash
Mech your referring to where it states firing seeker missiles off of a shaken vehicle are fired at normal BS5. It states nothing about firing at fliers in the FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/471748.page
Same arguments, same reasonings. Long story short, it fires at BS1 b/c it is RESOLVED AT BS1, regardless of what your BS "counts as"
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Post by: Drager
Don't think that linked thread agrees with you. There were alot of arguments for it working the other way. I'd say this is still firmly unresolved.
Please don't use all caps for emphasis it is generally considered shouting/rude.
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Post by: MarkyMark
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
I posted the link to show this has already been hashed out somewhere else by many of us "regulars". It does boil down to resolved at vs. other modifiers. Resolved at > other modifiers unless stated otherwise as resolved at dosent care what modifiers you have, its simply the way the shot is resolved.
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Post by: Jefffar
MarkyMark wrote:Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).
So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.
Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.
If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
 Vindicare-Obsession wrote: It does boil down to resolved at vs. other modifiers. Resolved at > other modifiers unless stated otherwise as resolved at dosent care what modifiers you have, its simply the way the shot is resolved.
Just as a refernce. Resolved at wins out no matter what modifiers or indeed, any other BS you fire with.
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Post by: MarkyMark
Jefffar wrote:MarkyMark wrote:Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).
So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.
Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.
If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.
I dont pay Tau and do not know the rules for seeker missiles, so forgive me if I am wrong. But what is the rule for snap shot, basic or special as you call it both?, IMO all shots at flyers must be resolved as snap shots unless using skyfire, it is pretty clear cut.
Is there one other weapon or power in the game that does not have to snap shot at a flyer without skyfire?
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
It's resolved at BS1 as being BS5 would be a modifer to the BS1 and is explicitly disallowed by the FAQ.
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Post by: overlordweasel
MarkyMark wrote:
Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).
So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.
wrong, sorry. re-read the FAQ question. It clearly states ANY modifier, which the seeker missiles would count as it modifies the BS to a 5 for the shot, and the snap shot rule says BS1 regardless. What you are implying is that snap shots are considered a "set modifier" which usually overrides a additive such as the markerlights. However, the seeker missiles are a set modifier as well, but the snap shot rule is a special rule that doesn't modify the BS of the shooter, just at what the BS is resolved at. I do agree that seeker missiles according to fluff should have the skyfire( and the interceptor) rule as well, but we can only wait for a FAQ or new codex (sometime next year if you believe the rumors)
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Jefffar wrote:MarkyMark wrote:Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).
So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.
Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.
If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.
so you're trying to tell me that if you hit with a marker light, you than can modify the bs of a seeker missle to bs 5 and fire it at the flyer. You are quite incorrect. The bs5 of the seeker is it's modified state, you are not allowed to use modifiers when making a snapshot.
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Post by: FenixZero
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Jefffar wrote:MarkyMark wrote:Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).
So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.
Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.
If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.
so you're trying to tell me that if you hit with a marker light, you than can modify the bs of a seeker missle to bs 5 and fire it at the flyer. You are quite incorrect. The bs5 of the seeker is it's modified state, you are not allowed to use modifiers when making a snapshot.
Actually, Seeker Missiles ALWAYS fire at BS5 even at ground targets. That is for all intents and purposes the BS of the Seeker.
Also, since the Seeker Missile is just one of the (few) useful effects that can be used on a flyer, the other being reducing cover (from Evading), I would argue that Seeker Hits On 2+ as it an effect of the Markerlight token.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
FenixZero wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Jefffar wrote:MarkyMark wrote:Nope, it is not un resolved at all, see the rulebook FAQ
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
Those are effects that add to the BS of a unit. In 40Ks order of operations additions are dealt with before you resolve special rules that set the attribute at a set number (ie BS 1 for snap shots or BS 5 for Seeker Missiles).
So the answer is that both rules apply, so we look at Basic versus Advanced. The Basic Rule is BS 1 on Snap Shots. The Advanced rule is BS 5 Seeker Missiles. Advanced trumps Basic, so BS 5 Seeker Missiles versus flyers.
Now, keep in mind the Markerlight still has to hit at BS 1 before the Seeker Missile even gets a chance. So the end result is that the odds of landing a Seeker Missile hit on a flyer are actually worse than trying to shoot the Flyer at BS 1 when you need to land the Markerlight first So it's not this is a ZOMG IT'S BROKEN FLYER KILLER THAT MEANS I CAN'T PLAY MY FLYERS!!!1!!1!01. It just means that landing a Seeker happens 5/36ths of the time instead of 1/36th of the time.
If I were using flyers against Tau I'd be more concerned about twin-linked Railguns that hit 11/36th of the time or twin-linked missile pods that land a hit 11/18 times. Being able to field 3 of those in every Heavy or Elite slot gives some pretty decent Air Defence for an army lacking Skyfire.
so you're trying to tell me that if you hit with a marker light, you than can modify the bs of a seeker missle to bs 5 and fire it at the flyer. You are quite incorrect. The bs5 of the seeker is it's modified state, you are not allowed to use modifiers when making a snapshot.
Actually, Seeker Missiles ALWAYS fire at BS5 even at ground targets. That is for all intents and purposes the BS of the Seeker.
Also, since the Seeker Missile is just one of the (few) useful effects that can be used on a flyer, the other being reducing cover (from Evading), I would argue that Seeker Hits On 2+ as it an effect of the Markerlight token.
Except in order to fire at a flyer you fire at BS1; Snapshot, unless you have skyfire. The seeker missile has to roll to hit still, as such it will need a 6.
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Post by: Jefffar
Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.
Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.
Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.
Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Jefffar wrote:Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.
Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.
Yep, and snap shots may only be fired at BS1 unless you have skyfire. Do Seeker Missles have skyfire? No so they fire at flyers at BS1
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Post by: Jefffar
Snap Shot is a basic rule. Seeker Missiles are an advanced rule. Advanced trumps Basic. This is why seeker missiles are ruled to fire at BS 5 when snap shooting in the Tau FAQ.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Jefffar wrote:Snap Shot is a basic rule. Seeker Missiles are an advanced rule. Advanced trumps Basic. This is why seeker missiles are ruled to fire at BS 5 when snap shooting in the Tau FAQ.
While that might be the case, that faq is for stunned vehicles.
Skyfire or lack there of is more specific than your seeker
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Post by: Drager
FAQ is for snap shots, stunned vehicles where an example.
I don't actually have a dog in this fight, nor do I know which answer is correct so *shrug*
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Post by: MarkyMark
Jefffar wrote:Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.
Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.
Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.
Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.
So codex trumps rule book, so why dont the modifers like marker lights and the others listed in the FAQ trump the rule book, as they meet your requirements of a advanced rule, they are for specific models and found in codex's, modifers or not they meet your requirement.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Drager wrote:FAQ is for snap shots, stunned vehicles where an example.
I don't actually have a dog in this fight, nor do I know which answer is correct so *shrug*
Firing snap shots and resolved as snap shots are two different beasts entirely. Oddly enough. Time for coffee.
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Post by: FenixZero
MarkyMark wrote:Jefffar wrote:Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.
Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.
Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.
Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.
So codex trumps rule book, so why dont the modifers like marker lights and the others listed in the FAQ trump the rule book, as they meet your requirements of a advanced rule, they are for specific models and found in codex's, modifers or not they meet your requirement.
Because of where they go in the math. The Markerlights go in the middle of the math the modify BS. Snap Shot and the 'static' BS of a Seeker Missile, happen at the same time, at the very end of the math to calculate BS.
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Post by: MarkyMark
FenixZero wrote:MarkyMark wrote:Jefffar wrote:Basic Rules are those that apply generally and are found in the rule book. IE the Hard to Hit rule for Flyers.
Advanced Rules are those that apply to only specific models and are found in Codexes. IE the rules that make it impossible to fire a Seeker Missile without expending a Markerlight Token but make said Seeker Missile BS 5.
Think of it this way, the Markerlight fires at the flyer with BS 1 due to the Hard to Hit rule like normal. The Seeker Missile then fires at the Markerlight Token instead of the Flyer, striking at BS 5 and the effects of the hit are then resolved against the flyer.
Again, mathematically you have to roll a 6+ before you get the chance to roll a 2+, so this isn't exactly a flyer killer weapon. I know I won't be counting on it to land any hits.
So codex trumps rule book, so why dont the modifers like marker lights and the others listed in the FAQ trump the rule book, as they meet your requirements of a advanced rule, they are for specific models and found in codex's, modifers or not they meet your requirement.
Because of where they go in the math. The Markerlights go in the middle of the math the modify BS. Snap Shot and the 'static' BS of a Seeker Missile, happen at the same time, at the very end of the math to calculate BS.
Regardless of where the math comes in you cannot shoot at a flyer at anything other then snap shot BS1 without skyfire.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
Would it be right to say a Seeker Missile is not actually a model? Also, would it be right to make the assumption that since it is only fired due to a Markerlight hit that it is unique in the fact that the vehicle (which has no control over it) doesn't fire it and therefore a Seeker Missile would be immune to any effects of Snap Shots, etc because it doesn't actually have a BS stat to reduce in any scenario? No stat = No modifiers.
As the Tau Codex says: "the vehicle carrying the the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot fire them itself."
Meanwhile in the Markerlight part of the codex A markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit (this being a flyer in this case). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
Codex trumps BRB doesn't it?
So my point being, something that doesn't have a BS stat per se, cannot be subjected by a BS modifier.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Mega_Nob wrote:Would it be right to say a Seeker Missile is not actually a model? Also, would it be right to make the assumption that since it is only fired due to a Markerlight hit that it is unique in the fact that the vehicle (which has no control over it) doesn't fire it and therefore a Seeker Missile would be immune to any effects of Snap Shots, etc because it doesn't actually have a BS stat to reduce in any scenario? No stat = No modifiers.
As the Tau Codex says: "the vehicle carrying the the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot fire them itself."
Meanwhile in the Markerlight part of the codex A markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit (this being a flyer in this case). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
Codex trumps BRB doesn't it?
So my point being, something that doesn't have a BS stat per se, cannot be subjected by a BS modifier.
Actually it having a 5 is a stat, if it can have a stat it would imply it has a 0 generaly see Zero lv characteristics. Going from a 0 to 5 is a modifier shown on pg 2.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
I dont think it has a stat:
"Resolved at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5"
isn't the same as
"Has a Ballistic Skill of 5"?
So the Codex is saying it hits on a 2+ in all situations where something has been hit by a markerlight, just my 2 cents.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Mega_Nob wrote:I dont think it has a stat:
"Resolved at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5"
isn't the same as
"Has a Ballistic Skill of 5"?
So the Codex is saying it hits on a 2+ in all situations where something has been hit by a markerlight, just my 2 cents.
Right well than Beings it's only an assumed BS of 5 than I guess it doesn't hit on 2's as only a BS of 5 hits on 2s right?
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Post by: Drager
Both hard to hit and the seeker say resolved at right? and the resolved at wording was mooted as meaning that it hit at bs1 so if they both have the resolved at wording what does that mean?
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Post by: Mega_Nob
Hehe, good call :-P
Do you get my point though? It's not actually using a BS. It's just following the markerlight to the target. Rolling a 1 is an automatic failure for anything in the game, in this case I just assume the missile jams or it's seeking sensors are malfunctioning.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Mega_Nob wrote:Hehe, good call :-P
Do you get my point though? It's not actually using a BS. It's just following the markerlight to the target. Rolling a 1 is an automatic failure for anything in the game, in this case I just assume the missile jams or it's seeking sensors are malfunctioning.
I do understand and I wish they'd just be like oh yea count the seeker missiles as having Skyfire. However right now they don't have it.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
I hear that!! It says in the fluff that they are there as AA support so it would make sense.
The magic words I follow are in the codex though:
"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit ((being a flyer in this case)). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Mega_Nob wrote:I hear that!! It says in the fluff that they are there as AA support so it would make sense.
The magic words I follow are in the codex though:
"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit ((being a flyer in this case)). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
Guess that would be a clash Codex>BGB than.
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots" Pg 81 BGB
I can agree to that, they seem to contradict each other.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:I hear that!! It says in the fluff that they are there as AA support so it would make sense.
The magic words I follow are in the codex though:
"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit ((being a flyer in this case)). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
Guess that would be a clash Codex>BGB than.
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots" Pg 81 BGB
I can agree to that, they seem to contradict each other.
There is no contradiciton. You can have your BS 5. I'll even let you have BS 10 against a flyer if you want. It dosent change the fact that whatever your BS is, it is resolved at BS 1.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:I hear that!! It says in the fluff that they are there as AA support so it would make sense.
The magic words I follow are in the codex though:
"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit ((being a flyer in this case)). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
Guess that would be a clash Codex>BGB than.
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots" Pg 81 BGB
I can agree to that, they seem to contradict each other.
There is no contradiciton. You can have your BS 5. I'll even let you have BS 10 against a flyer if you want. It dosent change the fact that whatever your BS is, it is resolved at BS 1.
Both say resolved one at 5 the other at 1. When there is a conflict Codex>Rulebook Pg 7 IIRC (bottom right hand side)
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Post by: rigeld2
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:I hear that!! It says in the fluff that they are there as AA support so it would make sense.
The magic words I follow are in the codex though:
"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit ((being a flyer in this case)). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
Guess that would be a clash Codex>BGB than.
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots" Pg 81 BGB
I can agree to that, they seem to contradict each other.
There is no contradiciton. You can have your BS 5. I'll even let you have BS 10 against a flyer if you want. It dosent change the fact that whatever your BS is, it is resolved at BS 1.
Both say resolved one at 5 the other at 1. When there is a conflict Codex>Rulebook Pg 7 IIRC (bottom right hand side)
The codex says it's resolved normally in all regards. How do you normally resolve a shot against a flyer?
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:I hear that!! It says in the fluff that they are there as AA support so it would make sense.
The magic words I follow are in the codex though:
"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit ((being a flyer in this case)). This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5".
Guess that would be a clash Codex>BGB than.
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots" Pg 81 BGB
I can agree to that, they seem to contradict each other.
There is no contradiciton. You can have your BS 5. I'll even let you have BS 10 against a flyer if you want. It dosent change the fact that whatever your BS is, it is resolved at BS 1.
Both say resolved one at 5 the other at 1. When there is a conflict Codex>Rulebook Pg 7 IIRC (bottom right hand side)
The codex says it's resolved normally in all regards. How do you normally resolve a shot against a flyer?
Normally snap shots are fired at BS of 1 as well, but These fire off at BS5
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Post by: rigeld2
They fire at BS5 for a normal resolution.
Are you asserting that a snap shot is a normal resolution of firing a shot?
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:
They fire at BS5 for a normal resolution.
Are you asserting that a snap shot is a normal resolution of firing a shot?
Alright than Rigeld. What do you think? RAW and RAI keeping to mind the FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
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Post by: rigeld2
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
They fire at BS5 for a normal resolution.
Are you asserting that a snap shot is a normal resolution of firing a shot?
Alright than Rigeld. What do you think? RAW and RAI keeping to mind the FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
I think that FAQ is irrelevant.
BRB FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures.
If you're firing at BS5 is it a snapshot? We know the answer is no, by definition.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
They fire at BS5 for a normal resolution.
Are you asserting that a snap shot is a normal resolution of firing a shot?
Alright than Rigeld. What do you think? RAW and RAI keeping to mind the FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
I think that FAQ is irrelevant.
BRB FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures.
If you're firing at BS5 is it a snapshot? We know the answer is no, by definition.
However if the vehicle is shaken it may only fire snap shots.
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Post by: rigeld2
Right, and the FAQ that deals with reducing your BS kicks in.
Shooting at a Flyer does not reduce your BS. Ever.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:
Right, and the FAQ that deals with reducing your BS kicks in.
Shooting at a Flyer does not reduce your BS. Ever.
So what is the Difference between Snapshots and resolving as snapshots?
I see it brought up alot but I can't find anything in the book as to what the difference is.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
Stop being so obtuse. It's quite clear the seeker missile is fired using snap shot. The FAQ has nothing to do with this subject matter.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Right, and the FAQ that deals with reducing your BS kicks in.
Shooting at a Flyer does not reduce your BS. Ever.
So what is the Difference between Snapshots and resolving as snapshots?
I see it brought up alot but I can't find anything in the book as to what the difference is.
The only difference is that the wording is different. Something is, and then something is resolved "as if", or "at". This is difference enough. One is changing the physical rule, while the other changes the way the rule works in a certain circumstance.
Look at it this way, I have a magic stone that makes me act as if I am a wild animal, It does not make me a wild animal, I am still a human.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
So, the FAQ says:
Q.If avehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, or Stunned, *for example*.) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1or Ballistic Skill 5?
A. BS5
It is asking about ANYTIME you are reduced to BS 1. So we shoot it at a flyer, we check the FAQ and it asks us "were you reduced to BS1?" To which we say "Yes." And the FAQ tells us to use "BS 5". Is this right?
The key words here being "for example". Shooting snap shots at a flyer is another example of your BS being reduced to 1 right?
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Post by: MarkyMark
No as snap shots do not reduce your BS, (same as overwatch does not reduce your BS) you just have to resolve as a snap shot which is BS1 from how I understand it
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Post by: Mega_Nob
The examples given in the FAQ are if a vehicle is shaken or stunned, in these examples the vehicle "may only fire snap shots".
In the BRB it says : "If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then it's BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots." Effectively reducing its BS to 1 from whatever it was.
Then it says in the flyer section: "Shots reslved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots"
Therefore the FAQ deals with that saying the seeker is shot at BS5.
The FAQ says if your BS is reduced to 1 for any reason then your seeker still fires at BS5. Black and white in my eyes. And that's referencing the rulebook :-P
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Post by: rigeld2
So you're ignoring the fact that you're not making a Snap Shot, merely resolving it as one?
It's black and white in my eyes that you're wrong.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:So you're ignoring the fact that you're not making a Snap Shot, merely resolving it as one?
It's black and white in my eyes that you're wrong.
What is the difference between a snap shot.
Vs
Resolving as a snap shot.
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Post by: rigeld2
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:rigeld2 wrote:So you're ignoring the fact that you're not making a Snap Shot, merely resolving it as one?
It's black and white in my eyes that you're wrong.
What is the difference between a snap shot.
Vs
Resolving as a snap shot.
One is a declared snap shot. The other is not - it's a normal shot that must be resolved at bs1.
You may not ever opt to take a snap shot. You can always opt to shoot at a flyer and resolve as a snap shot.
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Post by: Drager
Does resolving as a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
Does making a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Drager wrote:Does resolving as a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
No.
Does making a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
Yes.
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Post by: washout77
To me, it's because the Tau codex is just so old they didn't take any of this into account so we might just have to wait for a new codex sometime next year for a definite answer.
Anyway, my FLGS playing group had this same argument one time when the situation came up (against my Vendetta). It must have gone on * civilly* (that's how we weren't kicked out haha) for 20 minutes. Eventually, we just came to the house ruling that because the missile is a "Seeker Missile" (much like our modern day heat-seeking missiles) and is also fluff wise an "Anti-Air" weapon we allowed it the BS5. To the dismay of my Vendetta of course hahaha.
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Post by: DAaddict
Here is to hoping they give seeker missiles skyfire... The current correct ruling means you need a 6 to hit with a high-priced markerlight for the privilege of rolling for a 6 with your one-shot high priced seeker missile. Even if it could hit with a 2, it is still crap. I have to roll a 6 with a markerlight - costing 12 to 30 points to field and then I have a 17% chance of still failing. Whereas if I fired say 3 scatter laser war walkers, I should generate 4 hits for 180 points and can do it again next turn... If I had 8 pathfinders with 2 marker drones it costs me 146 points, will average 1+ markerlight hits and generate about 1.5 hits with 20 points worth of one-shot missiles... And that is IF a seeker would hit on a 2+.
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Post by: 40k-noob
Given the wording of the Tau Seeker Missle, it is quite CLEAR that the reason the FAQ says that the Seeker Missile is not affected by Stunned/Shaken results is because the Vehicle is NOT in CONTROL of the Seeker Missile.
The Seeker Missile is there fore NOT firing as a Snapshot but as a regular shooting attack and thus CANNOT hit a Flyer.
This would make both the TAU and the BRB FAQ's consistent and do not contradict each other.
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Post by: Drager
rigeld2 wrote:Drager wrote:Does resolving as a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
No.
Does making a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
Yes.
Why are these answers inconsistent? (trying to follow the argument here, not making a point)
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Post by: rigeld2
Drager wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Drager wrote:Does resolving as a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
No.
Does making a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
Yes.
Why are these answers inconsistent? (trying to follow the argument here, not making a point)
Because making a snap shot is not the same as resolving a normal shot as a snap shot.
In the latter case you're making a normal shot, but to resolve it as a snap shot you must use BS1. Your ballistic skill is still 5, so there's no reduction.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:Drager wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Drager wrote:Does resolving as a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
No.
Does making a snapshot reduce your ballistic skill?
Yes.
Why are these answers inconsistent? (trying to follow the argument here, not making a point)
Because making a snap shot is not the same as resolving a normal shot as a snap shot.
In the latter case you're making a normal shot, but to resolve it as a snap shot you must use BS1. Your ballistic skill is still 5, so there's no reduction.
Alright so if you resolve one and you're bs 5
You roll to hit as normal, lets say you roll a 4.
You pseudo hit, now resolve it as a snap-shot.
It's not a 6 so it didn't hit.
At least that's my take on it after Rigelds explanation.
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Post by: rigeld2
Essentially yes.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
If you roll a 4 at BS5 you hit.
Going back to my point about firing a seeker, technically it isn't actually fired by a model, vehicle or troop. It is an automated shot that homes in on a markerlight, therefore has no BS to modify at all. The roll to hit uses an "assumed" BS of 5 because it is seeking a markerlight and is unerringly accutrate, also to incorporate the rule where 1 is always a failure. In this case again I would say it is the seeker malfunctioning in some way.
Seeker Missile, isn't fired per se, but seeks the markerlight.
Apologies for dragging the Codex up again but it does say:
"Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit *((being a flyer in this case))*. This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"
Normally in ALL REGARDS, be it a snap shot or a shot at a flyer, at BS5.
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Post by: Jefffar
The one thing I don't get is that we are arguing i a weapon system will have a 5/36 chance of hitting or 1/36 chance of hitting.
Other weapons shooting at flyers hit 1/6 times, or 6/36 times. So what you really are arguing about is if a weapon should have a worse than usual chance to hit a flyer or no chance to hit a flyer.
Even though the rules as written and the FAQs support BS 5 seeker missile when Snap Shooting, really, do you feel the need to win so much that you need to make an already crappy weapon system even worse?
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Post by: DeathReaper
I think you might not understand what "normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5" means.
Normally can you hit a flyer without resolving the shot as a snap shot?
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Post by: megatrons2nd
Funny, Reaper, you use treat as saved as not a save, but you counter assumed BS5 as BS5. "Treat as" and "assumed" are interchangeable. Read it as: assumed to be saved, or Treat as BS5. You are using the opposite argument in two separate cases, that have the same effect on the wording. Which way do you plan on arguing your case? If treat as saved for FNP can bypass the Removed from play with no saves of any kind for the Hexrifle, than the assumed BS5 should work VS fliers. Conversely if a seeker missile can't hit a flier with it's assumed BS5, than FNP can't be used against a Hexrifle.
The FAQ already altered the Snapshots with Seeker Missiles, so it is not resolved normally in all regards when it comes to snap shots.
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Post by: rigeld2
Jefffar wrote:Even though the rules as written and the FAQs support BS 5 seeker missile when Snap Shooting, really, do you feel the need to win so much that you need to make an already crappy weapon system even worse?
It's not about feeling the need to win. Please don't assign a negative bias where none exists - its a poor way to argue.
It's entirely about understanding the rules. And while the FAQ supports BS5 while making a snap shot, you're not making a snap shot.
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Post by: 40k-noob
Again, the vehicle is NOT firing the Seeker Missile. The seeker Missile is mounted on the vehicle but is a remote weapon and is Fired by the Marker Light user, that is why it is not affected by Stunned/Shaken result and thus is not making a Snap Shot.
A Seeker Missile is making a regular shooting attack and can a regular shooting attack hit a Flyer? No.
Only Snap Shots can hit Flyers.
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Post by: megatrons2nd
Yes and The Tau FAQ allows the Seeker missile snap shot at normal at it's assumed BS5. Your point is lost when the two relevant FAQ's contradict each other. As I remember it, the more specific entry takes precedence. Meaning the Tau version supersedes the Rulebook one.
Quote from Tau Empire Codex, Markerlight Entry first point: "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."
Quote from Tau Empire FAQ:
"Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5."
The Normally in all regards is removed for the Snap Fire Ballistic Skill 1 issue. Why do you keep adding it back in? The Vehicle does fire it, even if it was a snap shot it is resolved at BS5.
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Post by: 40k-noob
 megatrons2nd wrote:Yes and The Tau FAQ allows the Seeker missile snap shot at normal at it's assumed BS5. Your point is lost when the two relevant FAQ's contradict each other. As I remember it, the more specific entry takes precedence. Meaning the Tau version supersedes the Rulebook one.
Quote from Tau Empire Codex, Markerlight Entry first point: "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."
Quote from Tau Empire FAQ:
"Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5."
The Normally in all regards is removed for the Snap Fire Ballistic Skill 1 issue. Why do you keep adding it back in? The Vehicle does fire it, even if it was a snap shot it is resolved at BS5.
You should re-read the Tau codex entry for Seeker Missiles. It says that any unit with a Markerlight can call for a Seeker missile salvo.....the vehicle carrying the seeker missile has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds to the Markerlight user.
The vehicle may be Stunned or Shaken but it doesn't matter because the vehicle is not firing the Seeker Missile and thus not making a SNAPSHOT.
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Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote:Funny, Reaper, you use treat as saved as not a save, but you counter assumed BS5 as BS5. "Treat as" and "assumed" are interchangeable. Read it as: assumed to be saved, or Treat as BS5. You are using the opposite argument in two separate cases, that have the same effect on the wording. Which way do you plan on arguing your case? If treat as saved for FNP can bypass the Removed from play with no saves of any kind for the Hexrifle, than the assumed BS5 should work VS fliers. Conversely if a seeker missile can't hit a flier with it's assumed BS5, than FNP can't be used against a Hexrifle.
That is not the same situation at all.
Yes in both cases we pretend the condition is true, however 'assume it has a BS of 5' is different language than 'Treated as saved'.
The situations are not comparable.
"This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."
"Normally in all regards". That means if you resolve it as a snap shot then you need a 6 to hit, as that is the norm for resolving as a snap shot.
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Post by: juraigamer
Shot is fired at an assumed BS 5, and this is resolved normally, meaning on a 2+ you hit and wound and ect.
Seeker missiles aren't modified BS, they are set BS. So in theory, you declare the usage of seeker missile on a flier, which sets the BS to 1 for firing, but the seeker missile says to treat it as BS 5, so you do.
Keep in mind the seeker missile is firing it's self but a markerlight is required to fire the missile.
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Post by: DeathReaper
 juraigamer wrote:Shot is fired at an assumed BS 5, and this is resolved normally, meaning on a 2+ you hit and wound and ect.
For non fliers that is correct.
Seeker missiles aren't modified BS, they are set BS. So in theory, you declare the usage of seeker missile on a flier, which sets the BS to 1 for firing, but the seeker missile says to treat it as BS 5, so you do.
Incorrect, the shot at a flyer is resolved as a snapshot, so even if it sets your BS to 5 you still resolve the shot as a snap shot at a flyer.
No different than a Dev squad trying to use a Signum to get BS 5 while shooting a flyer. that does not work either, for the same reasons.
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Post by: paidinfull
40k-noob wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Yes and The Tau FAQ allows the Seeker missile snap shot at normal at it's assumed BS5. Your point is lost when the two relevant FAQ's contradict each other. As I remember it, the more specific entry takes precedence. Meaning the Tau version supersedes the Rulebook one.
Quote from Tau Empire Codex, Markerlight Entry first point: "To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."
Quote from Tau Empire FAQ:
"Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5."
The Normally in all regards is removed for the Snap Fire Ballistic Skill 1 issue. Why do you keep adding it back in? The Vehicle does fire it, even if it was a snap shot it is resolved at BS5.
You should re-read the Tau codex entry for Seeker Missiles. It says that any unit with a Markerlight can call for a Seeker missile salvo.....the vehicle carrying the seeker missile has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds to the Markerlight user.
The vehicle may be Stunned or Shaken but it doesn't matter because the vehicle is not firing the Seeker Missile and thus not making a SNAPSHOT.
Seriously? This discussion is silly. It's 100% covered in the FAQ.
p31 Codex:Tau Empire
Seeker Missiles
Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users. The missiles may always be fired, each at different targets if relevnat, regardless of the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any other weapons. They may also be fired if the has suffered a Crew Stunned vehicle damage result.
p29 Codex: Tau Empire
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570052a_Tau_Empire_v1.1.pdf
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
The vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile. It's BS is reduced to 1, because of a snap shot, however, due to this FAQ entry the SM is fired at BS5. The example does not need to be all inclusive.
Seeker Missiles fire at Fliers @ BS5.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.
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Post by: paidinfull
 DeathReaper wrote:Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.
Again. You are 100% wrong. p80 Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots. What is the Snap Shot rule? Snap Shots p 13 BRB If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. Was the vehicle's Ballistic Skill reduced to 1? Yes. FAQ kicks in. You're trying to come up with a semantic BS argument that just plain doesn't work. For starters, in order to "resolve a Snap Shot" you have to follow the Snap Shot rule, which clearly reduces the vehicle/model's BS. Secondly, the odds of shooting down a flier with a seeker missile are terrible. Typically you'll see around 12 ML in a Tau army. That means they'll score 2 ML hits putting 2x counters on a single flier. Most fliers are AV11, meaning the S8 SM will need a 4+ to score a penetrating hit. It's AP3 so it doesn't get any bonuses. That means 2x units of (6) pathfinders has a 14% chance of taking down a flier. 9% if it Evades. You're absolutely ridiculous if you're not only going to have an argument over odds like that, but a flawed one at that. Seeker Missiles fire at Fliers at BS5. However, in order to even fire the Seeker Missile you first need a marker light token. The odds of a single markerlight & seeker missile combo bringing down a flier is 0.7%
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Post by: DeathReaper
paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.
Again. You are 100% wrong.
p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.
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Post by: paidinfull
DeathReaper wrote:paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.
Again. You are 100% wrong.
p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.
You can't be serious, are you?
How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"?
If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing.
Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot".
Absurd.
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Post by: 40k-noob
paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.
Again. You are 100% wrong.
p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.
You can't be serious, are you?
How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"?
If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing.
Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot".
Absurd.
This is funny.
Have you read the Rules?
Do you know what Skyfire and Snapshot and Hard to Hit are and how they interact with each other?
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Post by: Mega_Nob
I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p
I know the odds are low but still.......
I may just use my Tau with an Aegis defence line and an Icarus. That or take an allied detatchment of Orks with a Flakka Dakka gun for funsies (and to save all the arguments!!).
Is there a way to set up a poll on here? Might be interesting to see a vote on this issue.
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Post by: Happyjew
Mega_Nob wrote:I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p
Yeah, because my Eldar army has so many Flyers available to it.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
Some armies excluded obviously! :-)
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Post by: DeathReaper
Mega_Nob wrote:I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p
Do not assign motive when none exists, It is not a good way to debate rules.
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Post by: paidinfull
40k-noob wrote:paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.
Again. You are 100% wrong. p80 Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.
You can't be serious, are you? How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"? If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing. Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot". Absurd.
This is funny. Have you read the Rules? Do you know what Skyfire and Snapshot and Hard to Hit are and how they interact with each other?
It was a conflicting statement to point out the absurdity of the logic argument reaper was trying, and failing, to make. He was saying that "resolving as Snap Shot" is not the same thing as "firing a Snap Shot", which is, of course, semantic BS. That's why I asked the rhetorical question, "How do you resolve Snap Shots?" We only know what a Snap Shot is because of the rule quoted here. Snap Shots p 13 BRB If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. There is no such thing as "resolving a Snap Shot" but not "making/firing a Snap Shot". It's completely made up and no where written in the rules. I say that because when you ask "How do you resolve a Snap Shot?" meaning where do you look up the rule, you turn to p13 and quite clearly, it says it reduces the models Ballistic Skill to 1 "for the purpose of those shots". I then referenced Skyfire because this is what the rule says: A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Where in that rule does it say you use their normal Ballistic Skill when "resolving" shots against a Flyer? Again, it's rhetorical. It doesn't and so by reaper's flawed logic Skyfire literally would do nothing because even though you are shooting/making shots at the Flyer on your normal BS, they would "be resolved at BS1". However, we all know that it clearly allows you to fire at Flyers using your normal Ballistic Skill, hence disproving his silly argument. The process 100% works as follows: - Snap Shot a Markerlight at Flyer. - If a Hit, expend Markerlight Token to Launch a seeker missile. - Snap Shot reduces vehicles to BS1 - FAQ overrides that when it says: Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29) A: Ballistic Skill 5. Hence... Seeker Missiles are BS5 versus Flyers. The End.
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Post by: DeathReaper
paidinfull wrote:He was saying that "resolving as Snap Shot" is not the same thing as "firing a Snap Shot", which is, of course, semantic BS.
Without semantics the rules have no meaning...
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Post by: Aycee71
Can you even Snap Shot a Seeker Missile? If a Seeker Missile cannot be Snap Shot then I don't see how it can even be fired at a flyer.
Aycee
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Post by: xole
I don't see how the faq is the least bit relevant to this discussion. The Q and A regarding seeker missiles is talking about how they can be fired even if the vehicle carrying them is stunned, since seeker missiles are not (for the purposes of shooting) really part of the vehicle they are on. Nowhere in the question are flyers or even snap shots mentioned, since the seeker missile isn't making a snap shot if the vehicle is stunned. People are taking it really out of context.
The seeker missile has an assumed BS of 5.
BS is set to 5.
Fired as a snap shot.
BS is set to 1.
No other modifiers.
Shot is fired at BS 1.
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Post by: DAaddict
While I would agree that it makes logical sense that a seeker missile would resolve at a BS 5 no matter what. You are dealing with the vagaries of GW rules. Because:
a) Tau are older than the hills
b) Snapfire and flyers were a twinkle in the eye at the time.
RAW is that either a seeker missile cannot be fired at a flyer since it can never be snapfired or that because it is being snapfired it will hit at BS 1.
Rules as implied one would think that it should hit at BS5 seeing you already have to hit with a markerlight at BS1 (snapfire).
Rules as effect, Tau are screwed by fliers no matter what because it costs so much to generate a hit...
1 Eldar warwalker with 2 scatter lasers generates 1.33 hits for a cost of 60 points...
1 Quad gun generates (assuming BS 3) 3 hits for a cost of 100 points.
Now assuming BS1 marker and BS1 snapshot... It costs
82 points to generate .028 chance to geenerate 1 hit.
Assumine BS 1 marker and BS 5 snapshot it costs 82 points to generate .14 chance to generate 1 hit.
So a quad gun generates 1 hit for 33 points.
A warwalker generates 1 hit for 45 points.
A tau with BS1 seeker missiles generates 1 for a mere 2929 points.
A tau with BS5 seeker missiles costs 582 to generate 1 hit.
A broadside will generate 1 hit for a costs of 229.
The point is in either case, a tau is an idiot for firing a markerlight seeker missile no matter what the resolution of this.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
DeathReaper wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:I think there seems to be a lot of people who are just scared to get thier new, shiny flyers shot down by Tau! :-p
Do not assign motive when none exists, It is not a good way to debate rules.
Was a joke, hence the smiley. I meant no offence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
paidinfull wrote:40k-noob wrote:paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Again there is a difference between firing at BS1 and the shot being resolved at BS1.
Again. You are 100% wrong.
p80
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
You may want to read what you wrote, and rethink it.
You can't be serious, are you?
How does one "resolve a Snap Shot"?
If it worked as you suggest, which it clearly doesn't, then Skyfire would do nothing.
Because the model is "firing with it's normal BS" but the shot is "being ***resolved*** as a Snap Shot".
Absurd.
This is funny.
Have you read the Rules?
Do you know what Skyfire and Snapshot and Hard to Hit are and how they interact with each other?
It was a conflicting statement to point out the absurdity of the logic argument reaper was trying, and failing, to make.
He was saying that "resolving as Snap Shot" is not the same thing as "firing a Snap Shot", which is, of course, semantic BS. That's why I asked the rhetorical question, "How do you resolve Snap Shots?" We only know what a Snap Shot is because of the rule quoted here.
Snap Shots p 13 BRB
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.
There is no such thing as "resolving a Snap Shot" but not "making/firing a Snap Shot". It's completely made up and no where written in the rules. I say that because when you ask "How do you resolve a Snap Shot?" meaning where do you look up the rule, you turn to p13 and quite clearly, it says it reduces the models Ballistic Skill to 1 "for the purpose of those shots".
I then referenced Skyfire because this is what the rule says:
A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers.
Where in that rule does it say you use their normal Ballistic Skill when "resolving" shots against a Flyer? Again, it's rhetorical. It doesn't and so by reaper's flawed logic Skyfire literally would do nothing because even though you are shooting/making shots at the Flyer on your normal BS, they would "be resolved at BS1". However, we all know that it clearly allows you to fire at Flyers using your normal Ballistic Skill, hence disproving his silly argument.
The process 100% works as follows:
- Snap Shot a Markerlight at Flyer.
- If a Hit, expend Markerlight Token to Launch a seeker missile.
- Snap Shot reduces vehicles to BS1
- FAQ overrides that when it says:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Hence... Seeker Missiles are BS5 versus Flyers.
The End.
Here here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I read "resolved normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5"
as
Resolved normally in all regards = Firing a seeker, whether it be snap shot or any other kind of shot.
At an assumed BS of 5 = Hits on a 2+
So, I follow this sequence: I am firing a seeker, I look at the rules and it says I have to hit with a markerlight first, which I do (I get lucky!), then I fire the seeker, I look at the rules once again, it says in all regards the seeker fires at BS5 once the marker light has hit, I roll a 3, Yey, I hit the flyer.
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Post by: DeathReaper
And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.
This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).
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Post by: paidinfull
 xole wrote:I don't see how the faq is the least bit relevant to this discussion. The Q and A regarding seeker missiles is talking about how they can be fired even if the vehicle carrying them is stunned, since seeker missiles are not (for the purposes of shooting) really part of the vehicle they are on. Nowhere in the question are flyers or even snap shots mentioned, since the seeker missile isn't making a snap shot if the vehicle is stunned. People are taking it really out of context.
The seeker missile has an assumed BS of 5.
BS is set to 5.
Fired as a snap shot.
BS is set to 1.
No other modifiers.
Shot is fired at BS 1.
Incorrect. The example is just that an example and can even be excluded from the question and still mean the same thing.. The FAQ is about reducing the vehicle's BS to 1.
If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes.
Codex specific > BRB general
This is really a silly discussion.
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Post by: MarkyMark
But as has been discussed the vehicle is NOT firing the seeker missile, so the FAQ doesnt mean anything here.
You can only snap shot at a flyer unless you have skyfire, does the seeker missile have skyfire, no, bs1 then.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
DeathReaper wrote:And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.
This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." ( FaQ).
No rules broken, follow this sequence:
I fire a markerlight as a snap shot, it hits (rolling a 6). I then look at the rules. The rules say "only snap shots at a zooming flyer", yes, I agree, then I look at the rules for snap shots(p13 BRB), this states "a models BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" so for the purpose of these shots my BS is reduced to 1. I then look at the FAQ and that says "If my vehicle is reduced to BS1, do my seekers fire at BS1 or BS5? Answer, BS5. A snap shot is an occasion where the BS would be reduced to one. There is nothing there to say this excludes shooting at flyers. In any occasion where the BS of the vehicle is reduced to 1, the seeker still fires at BS5, hitting on a 2+. Logic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkyMark wrote:But as has been discussed the vehicle is NOT firing the seeker missile, so the FAQ doesnt mean anything here.
You can only snap shot at a flyer unless you have skyfire, does the seeker missile have skyfire, no, bs1 then.
The seeker is a unique weapon in that it doesn't actually get fired by a vehicle, or any model for that matter, therefore it isn't bound by any modifiers regarding BS. The FAQ backs this up by saying that in no circumstances does the BS of the seeker change from 5. It homes in on a markerlight as that is the only way it can work, hitting on 2+ because in all areas of the game a roll of 1 is a failure.
The FAQ specifically mentions the seeker missile so how can it not mean anything? Do we just ignore that part of the FAQ altogether then?
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Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Funny, Reaper, you use treat as saved as not a save, but you counter assumed BS5 as BS5. "Treat as" and "assumed" are interchangeable. Read it as: assumed to be saved, or Treat as BS5. You are using the opposite argument in two separate cases, that have the same effect on the wording. Which way do you plan on arguing your case? If treat as saved for FNP can bypass the Removed from play with no saves of any kind for the Hexrifle, than the assumed BS5 should work VS fliers. Conversely if a seeker missile can't hit a flier with it's assumed BS5, than FNP can't be used against a Hexrifle.
That is not the same situation at all.
Yes in both cases we pretend the condition is true, however 'assume it has a BS of 5' is different language than 'Treated as saved'.
The situations are not comparable.
"This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5."
"Normally in all regards". That means if you resolve it as a snap shot then you need a 6 to hit, as that is the norm for resolving as a snap shot.
How is it not the same? You are attributing 2 situations in which the end effect is what the item is not. Is it saved? Is it BS5? the answer to both is no. It is treated as that, and nothing more. You are arguing that the answer is no for the first and yes for the second. The end meaning is the same if you change it to: The wound is assumed to be saved, or this shooting is resolved normally in all regards treating it as BS5. Very much the same. Treat as and assumed are interchangeable in both instances.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
So is Bi-polar and whiny, it doesn't mean it's the same.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.
This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." ( FaQ).
No rules broken, follow this sequence:
I fire a markerlight as a snap shot, it hits (rolling a 6). I then look at the rules. The rules say "only snap shots at a zooming flyer", yes, I agree, then I look at the rules for snap shots(p13 BRB), this states "a models BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" so for the purpose of these shots my BS is reduced to 1. I then look at the FAQ and that says "If my vehicle is reduced to BS1, do my seekers fire at BS1 or BS5? Answer, BS5. A snap shot is an occasion where the BS would be reduced to one. There is nothing there to say this excludes shooting at flyers. In any occasion where the BS of the vehicle is reduced to 1, the seeker still fires at BS5, hitting on a 2+. Logic.
That is what you call logic? Maybe bad logic, as the Seeker missile did not fire as a snap shot.
If you resolve the seeker as a snap shot then, and only then can you hit a zooming flyer.
P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.
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Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote:
P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.
There is a total of 4 ways a vehicle will be firing snapshots: Shaken, Stunned, Moving(or moving to fast if a fast vehicle), and shooting at fliers. If it was only meant for the shaken or stunned it would not have said "for example". It would have simply said if the vehicle is shaken or stunned....
This FAQ entry has full bearing on the discussion at hand.
Also note that your logic invalidates the FAQ, so it must be your logic that is flawed. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bi-Polar is a medical condition, whiny is not synonymous with Bi-Polar in any way. Being Bi-Polar does not always result in a whiny personality either, it will often result in unhealthy outbursts, and even suicidal tendencies. It is a neurological imbalance that causes rapid, and often unrestrained emotional changes. Typically from depressive to a manic high energy state.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
megatrons2nd wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.
There is a total of 4 ways a vehicle will be firing snapshots: Shaken, Stunned, Moving(or moving to fast if a fast vehicle), and shooting at fliers. If it was only meant for the shaken or stunned it would not have said "for example". It would have simply said if the vehicle is shaken or stunned....
This FAQ entry has full bearing on the discussion at hand.
Also note that your logic invalidates the FAQ, so it must be your logic that is flawed.
You don't fire a snapshot at a flier.
You resolve it as a snapshot.
See what I just did there, tricky right. 
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Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote:P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.
You are missing the fact that it is not the vehicle that fires the missile.
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Post by: megatrons2nd
Reread the Markerlight rules. It specifically says allows a vehicle to fire a seeker missile. The Vehicle is(how do you underline?) firing the missile. It is only triggered by the markerlight hit. The only bit is the vehicle can't normally control when they are launched, which is of course ignored by a skyray. Automatically Appended Next Post: jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
You don't fire a snapshot at a flier.
You resolve it as a snapshot.
See what I just did there, tricky right.
You fire a Seeker missile, but you resolve it at BS5. Yep works both ways. They both resolve.(yes I know this is a stupid sentence, but since you guys like to play with words what the hell)
You prove nothing aside from they are both resolved, at something.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Okay the vehicle fires the missile as the rules for the missile state that the markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5" (C:Tau 29)
Does that missile resolve as a snap shot?
If so then you are all good because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." (FaQ).
You have no allowance to use BS 5 as the shot is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5, this includes being resolved as a snap shot.
You can have a set modifier that makes your BS 10, and you still resolve a hit against a flyer at BS1.
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Post by: xole
paidinfull wrote: xole wrote:I don't see how the faq is the least bit relevant to this discussion. The Q and A regarding seeker missiles is talking about how they can be fired even if the vehicle carrying them is stunned, since seeker missiles are not (for the purposes of shooting) really part of the vehicle they are on. Nowhere in the question are flyers or even snap shots mentioned, since the seeker missile isn't making a snap shot if the vehicle is stunned. People are taking it really out of context.
The seeker missile has an assumed BS of 5.
BS is set to 5.
Fired as a snap shot.
BS is set to 1.
No other modifiers.
Shot is fired at BS 1.
Incorrect. The example is just that an example and can even be excluded from the question and still mean the same thing.. The FAQ is about reducing the vehicle's BS to 1.
If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes.
Codex specific > BRB general
This is really a silly discussion.
It is. That doesn't solve anything.
Now, tell me then, where in the faq is anything regarding snap shotting seeker missiles mentioned? I'd like to remind you once again that the seeker missile not being controlled by the vehicle is it's "special thing", which gives the context for this Q and A. If they had meant for all snap shots, why wouldn't they have just said so?
If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes.
By your own words, you are saying the vehicle is reduced to bs1. However, the vehicle is completely irrelevant. The seeker missile is what is being reduced to bs1 due to firing at a flyer. If the vehicle is required to fire snap shots for whatever reason, then the seeker missiles will still be able to fire normally. Which is what the faq says.
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Post by: paidinfull
Read. The. Rules.
I took the time to post them in the thread. The least you can do is read them so you're not completely lazy and misinformed.
The *vehicle* is firing the seeker missile.
Reaper you are so caught up in your own semantics you are completely turned around.
"Only snap shots can hit a flier"
That is what you said.
That also means you believe that Skyfire does ***nothing****.
If you could, walk us through how "resolving" a Snap Shot works with relevant rules quotes as reference. If at any point you refer to the process on page 13 where it explicitly says the "model" is reduced to BS1, which is then clearly covered in the FAQ, you will have disproved your own argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw this line is straight out of FAQ.
"If a vehicle is reduced to BS1 do its seeker missiles fire at BS5? Yes. "
Modified only with the example removed because it is not, nor does it need to be all inclusive.
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Post by: Drunkspleen
DeathReaper wrote:Okay the vehicle fires the missile as the rules for the missile state that the markerlight "Allows a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5" (C:Tau 29)
Does that missile resolve as a snap shot?
If so then you are all good because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." ( FaQ).
You have no allowance to use BS 5 as the shot is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5, this includes being resolved as a snap shot.
You can have a set modifier that makes your BS 10, and you still resolve a hit against a flyer at BS1.
But you don't "resolve a hit against a flyer at BS1" rather the rules tell you "[a model's] Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" great, count the tanks Ballistic Skill as 1, that is meaningless then because you are told to resolve seeker missiles at a certain pre-defined ballistic skill which has nothing to do with what the models BS is, or is assumed to be.
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Post by: MarkyMark
So would you Tau players acutally play a game and use this interpretation?,
i asked before and will ask again, is there any other shooting attack without skyfire allowed to hit a flyer without using hard to hit rules.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
DeathReaper wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:And you have broken a rule if you hit a flyer if you roll a 3 and try to say that hits the flyer.
This is because "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming Flyer..." ( FaQ).
No rules broken, follow this sequence:
I fire a markerlight as a snap shot, it hits (rolling a 6). I then look at the rules. The rules say "only snap shots at a zooming flyer", yes, I agree, then I look at the rules for snap shots(p13 BRB), this states "a models BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" so for the purpose of these shots my BS is reduced to 1. I then look at the FAQ and that says "If my vehicle is reduced to BS1, do my seekers fire at BS1 or BS5? Answer, BS5. A snap shot is an occasion where the BS would be reduced to one. There is nothing there to say this excludes shooting at flyers. In any occasion where the BS of the vehicle is reduced to 1, the seeker still fires at BS5, hitting on a 2+. Logic.
That is what you call logic? Maybe bad logic, as the Seeker missile did not fire as a snap shot.
If you resolve the seeker as a snap shot then, and only then can you hit a zooming flyer.
P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.
The FAQ uses shaken or stunned as an example it is not saying in just those circumstances, so what other examples are there when your BS is reduced to one? Snap shots maybe? OK, then the seeker still fires at BS5. You just contradict your own point by saying the vehicle doesn't fire the seeker, that has been part of my point all through the thread. It is not fired by a model and therefore is not bound by the rules of a model, eg, having to modify it's BS, as it technically doesn't have a BS stat to reduce. Automatically Appended Next Post: jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: megatrons2nd wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
P.S. The FaQ you are referencing is for shaken or stunned vehicles and the firing of seeker missiles. This tells us that the vehicle itself does not fire the seeker missile, and that situation has no bearing on what we are discussing.
There is a total of 4 ways a vehicle will be firing snapshots: Shaken, Stunned, Moving(or moving to fast if a fast vehicle), and shooting at fliers. If it was only meant for the shaken or stunned it would not have said "for example". It would have simply said if the vehicle is shaken or stunned....
This FAQ entry has full bearing on the discussion at hand.
Also note that your logic invalidates the FAQ, so it must be your logic that is flawed.
You don't fire a snapshot at a flier.
You resolve it as a snapshot.
See what I just did there, tricky right.
So, I shoot a seeker at a flyer, I have to *resolve* this shot as a snap shot, this by its very definition in the rules is a shot that reduces your BS to 1. The word resolved doesn't come back into it (see p13 BRB). I then look at the FAQ and see that If the vehicle that the seeker is on is reduced to BS1 for any reason, my seeker still fires at BS5.
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Post by: Happyjew
Mega_Nob wrote:The FAQ uses shaken or stunned as an example it is not saying in just those circumstances, so what other examples are there when your BS is reduced to one?
Firing Ordnance weapons, moving too fast, enemy model special abilities, weapon special abilities, etc.
It is not fired by a model and therefore is not bound by the rules of a model, eg, having to modify it's BS, as it technically doesn't have a BS stat to reduce.
As has been pointed out it is fired by a model.
So, I shoot a seeker at a flyer, I have to *resolve* this shot as a snap shot, this by its very definition in the rules is a shot that reduces your BS to 1. The word resolved doesn't come back into it (see p13 BRB). I then look at the FAQ and see that If the vehicle that the seeker is on is reduced to BS1 for any reason, my seeker still fires at BS5.
Except the vehicle's BS is not reduced so you cannot look at that FAQ for guidance. There is a better FAQ that covers this and has been posted. Here's a hint, it's the one whose answer starts with "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers..." and then gives some examples as to what this means.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
Happyjew wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:The FAQ uses shaken or stunned as an example it is not saying in just those circumstances, so what other examples are there when your BS is reduced to one?
Firing Ordnance weapons, moving too fast, enemy model special abilities, weapon special abilities, etc.
Yes, I agree.
It is not fired by a model and therefore is not bound by the rules of a model, eg, having to modify it's BS, as it technically doesn't have a BS stat to reduce.
As has been pointed out it is fired by a model.
OK, so if it is, the vehicle firing the seeker is reduced to BS1 by the snap shot rule, the seeker then fires at BS5 according to the FAQ.
So, I shoot a seeker at a flyer, I have to *resolve* this shot as a snap shot, this by its very definition in the rules is a shot that reduces your BS to 1. The word resolved doesn't come back into it (see p13 BRB). I then look at the FAQ and see that If the vehicle that the seeker is on is reduced to BS1 for any reason, my seeker still fires at BS5.
Except the vehicle's BS is not reduced so you cannot look at that FAQ for guidance. There is a better FAQ that covers this and has been posted. Here's a hint, it's the one whose answer starts with "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers..." and then gives some examples as to what this means.
Yes, only snap shots can hit zooming flyers, what does a snap shot do? reduce your BS to 1, what does the FAQ say? If your BS is reduced to 1 you still fire the seeker at BS5.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Its as simple as this, it is not reduced to BS1, It is resolved at BS1. This essentially means "Resolve the Shot as if the model was BS1"
Also, I will point back to
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/471748.page
Where this exact argument went in circles constantly and I will point out that if the two parties are unwilling to hear what the others are saying this thread is likely to be locked.
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Post by: rigeld2
Also - if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place.
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Post by: MarkyMark
rigeld2 wrote:Also - if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place.
Have to agree with this, only snap shots can hit flyers, it is quite a blanket rule really hence why no one has given me a example of another shooting attack that doesnt have to snap shot to hit fliers without skyfire.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
MarkyMark wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Also - if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place.
Have to agree with this, only snap shots can hit flyers, it is quite a blanket rule really hence why no one has given me a example of another shooting attack that doesnt have to snap shot to hit fliers without skyfire.
Looks right. I've been running around looking reading FAQ's and all that jazz.
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Post by: Drager
I'm not comfortable with either interpretation here, which is why I haven't posted much in this thread.
On one hand there is the argument that resolving a shot as a snap shot is different to making a snap shot, mechanically. I can't find a single piece of rules support for this interpretation of resolve, so it seems to me that resolveing as a snap shot reduces your BS to 1. It does not say resolved at BS1, it says resolved as a snap shot. We know that the snap shot rule, at least in the case of the Tau Seeker missiles is considered to reduce ballistic skill (as per the Tau FAQ).
The other argument that firing at BS5 is not firing a snap shot doesn't wash with me either. You are still snap shooting with that seeker missile, you just do so at BS5, because when your BS is set to 1 by the Snap Shot rule being resolved and then the FAQ kicks in.
So I can't support the need a 6 to hit camp.
On the other hand the Signum is a very similar item, which we know cannot improve your BS to hit fliers, via the FAQ from the BRB. Further the difference in wording between make a snap shot and resolved as a snap shot does seem significant, implying a difference in menaing although I can't tease out what that difference is.
So I can't support the need a 2 to hit camp.
Yeah for me this issue is completely unresolved and I think will remain so until either
1) GW FAQ this
2) Someone can show me rules support for the definition of resolved whcih allows it to be interpreted definitively one way or ther other
3) Some otehr combination of factors I haven't thought of.
Incidentally for that reason I'm going HIWPI if my opponent is using Tau he can hit on 2's, if for some reason I start a Tau army, I hit on 6's that way everyones happy during games.
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Post by: megatrons2nd
How about this. The Markerlight/seeker missile tells us to resolve normally in all regards. Snap shots, in it's own rules says in certain situations, the model is reduced to BS1. Certain situations is not normally, it is an exception. As The Seeker missile is resolved normally, it would ignore the exception, and fire at BS5. The Main rule book tells us to use codex rules over rulebook rules when there is a conflict. Even with both FAQ's in place it would allow the Seeker missile to hit at BS 5. There now is no conflict in the rules, snapshots only rule is trumped by the rules for markerlight riding seeker missiles.
I am unfamiliar with the signum rules, so will refrain from arguing that rule at the moment. Maybe, it was ruled the way it was as it does not use another attack to function. Or maybe even because it modifies a stat prior to the attack, and the markelight you would in effect be using the hard to hit rule twice for a single attack. Just thoughts, until I can read the Signum rules.
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Post by: DeathReaper
No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.
As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."
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Post by: megatrons2nd
Then you are the one breaking rules. As the main rulebook specifically states that Codex trumps rulebook, whenever a conflict arises. The FAQ supports this, at least until they change them. The Specific Tau FAQ answer trumps the Core Rulebook FAQ answer.
And doing things "normally" would preclude using the "exception" which is "Snap Shots". The "only Snap shots can hit fliers" is still trumped by the Codex "special" rule, and is admited as such in the Core Rulebook.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
megatrons2nd wrote:Then you are the one breaking rules. As the main rulebook specifically states that Codex trumps rulebook, whenever a conflict arises. The FAQ supports this, at least until they change them. The Specific Tau FAQ answer trumps the Core Rulebook FAQ answer.
And doing things "normally" would preclude using the "exception" which is "Snap Shots". The "only Snap shots can hit fliers" is still trumped by the Codex "special" rule, and is admited as such in the Core Rulebook.
Agreed, I have been failing to mention the codex in my recent posts, digging logic from the rules and FAQ doesn't seem to have got me far with some people so I'll mention it again in agreement with you. Codex says it hits at BS5 in all regards so, Markerlight hits unit, Seeker fires at unit, in all regards it hits on a 2+ regardless of what the unit type is.
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Post by: MarkyMark
Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.
So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game
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Post by: Mega_Nob
MarkyMark wrote:Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.
So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game
Codex trumps rules, codex says the seeker fires at a unit which has been hit with a markerlight with BS5 in all regards. That unit could be a tank, a flyer or a warlord, it still fires with BS5, in all regards.
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Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote:Codex says it hits at BS5 in all regards so, Markerlight hits unit, Seeker fires at unit, in all regards it hits on a 2+ regardless of what the unit type is.
That's not what the Codex says - please don't misrepresent it.
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Post by: FenixZero
MarkyMark wrote:Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.
So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game
Why not? The seeker is a laser guided missile, going for a target with a laser already on it, that Snap Shot, and hit, the flyer.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:Codex says it hits at BS5 in all regards so, Markerlight hits unit, Seeker fires at unit, in all regards it hits on a 2+ regardless of what the unit type is.
That's not what the Codex says - please don't misrepresent it.
I won't misrepresent it, I will quote directly from it:
A Markerlight can be used to "allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit*. This shooting is resolved NORMALLY IN ALL REGARDS at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"
*A flyer in this case
Codex is on my lap and I just typed what I read, excuse the capital letters, I don't mean to come accross as rude, they are just to make the point.
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Post by: rigeld2
Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".
How do you normally shoot at Flyers?
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
DeathReaper wrote:No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.
As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."
So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer?? Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".
How do you normally shoot at Flyers?
I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.
As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."
So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote:Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".
How do you normally shoot at Flyers?
I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.
Please stop with the "Skyfire does nothing." No one is challenging Skyfire and should not be part of this discussion.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.
As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."
So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??
No, Skyfire has an explicit exception. Do Seeker Missiles?
rigeld2 wrote:Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".
How do you normally shoot at Flyers?
I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.
That's not what it says at all.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
40k-noob wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.
As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."
So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote:Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".
How do you normally shoot at Flyers?
I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.
Please stop with the "Skyfire does nothing." No one is challenging Skyfire and should not be part of this discussion.
Also again, if you are insisting it is BS5 then it is NOT a snapshot it is a normal shooting attack.
You keep quoting the Codex but it was written before Flyers were in the Game and the most recent FAQ has already made it clear a "snapshot" is always BS1.
"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.
As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."
So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??
No, Skyfire has an explicit exception. Do Seeker Missiles?
Yes, as in all regards they shoot at the unit that is marked at BS5.
rigeld2 wrote:Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".
How do you normally shoot at Flyers?
I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.
That's not what it says at all.
So what does it say? I know it doesn't say "in all regards apart from if it is firing at flyers or snap shooting".
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Post by: MarkyMark
Mega_Nob wrote:MarkyMark wrote:Never heard of one FAQ trumping another, new one to think off.
So markerlights can shoot at flyers as if they have skyfire because of the way you read the rules. Cant say I'd let it wash in a acutal game
Codex trumps rules, codex says the seeker fires at a unit which has been hit with a markerlight with BS5 in all regards. That unit could be a tank, a flyer or a warlord, it still fires with BS5, in all regards.
Still not exactly code FAQ trumps rule book faq, at a stretch maybe but thats a assumption.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
40k-noob wrote:40k-noob wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:No, Normally you need to fire a snap shot to hit a zooming flyer.
As Rig said "if you're insisting that it shoots at BS5, it's not a snap shot and cannot ever hit a Flyer in the first place."
So in that case, Skyfire does nothing, if only a snap shot can hit a zooming flyer then you are saying that even if something does have skyfire, it has to "resolve" it's shots at BS1 because a snap shot is the only way you can hit a flyer??
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote:Thank you for the quote - Note that there's a difference between "normally in all regards" and "BS5 in all regards".
How do you normally shoot at Flyers?
I normally shoot at flyers with snap shots, but like it says, in ALL REGARDS it fires at BS5. Be it a snap shot or a normal shot.
Please stop with the "Skyfire does nothing." No one is challenging Skyfire and should not be part of this discussion.
Also again, if you are insisting it is BS5 then it is NOT a snapshot it is a normal shooting attack.
You keep quoting the Codex but it was written before Flyers were in the Game and the most recent FAQ has already made it clear a "snapshot" is always BS1.
"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."
Uhuh, then the Tau FAQ kicks in, if a vehicle is reduced to BS1 (as that's what snap shots do, BRB p13), does the seeker fire at BS1 or BS5? BS5
Regardless of whether the Codex was written before flyers or not, I can't imagine it was written without flyers in mind. I'm pretty sure GW would have insider info and known that flyers were going to be implemented into the rules. But that's all just speculation, the codex says "a unit hit with a markerlight" The unit in this case is a flyer.
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Post by: DAaddict
Logically it makes sense that a seeker missile will hit with a 5. The snapfire part is handled by the markerlight having to generate a hit with a snapfire shot. The logic of a target designated shot being good to go makes sense.
However we are talking GW and rules lawyers. So it probably can't.
As I have stated two times before - it really doesn't matter. I will allow any tau to hit on a 5 because it is so inefficient point cost wise. You need 6 markerlights to generate 1 snapfire hit - minumum cost is 72 points for pathfinders without their devilfish. Then another 10 points to generate an 83% chance to hit. Then a 50 to 67% chance to penetrate. Then an 16% chance to destroy it.... 82 points to generate a little better than an 8% chance to kill a flyer.
A broadside for 70 points. 29% chance to hit for 83% chance to pen for a 50% chance to kill. That is a 12% chance to kill.
Bottomline, I can darn near have 3 broadsides for the cost of a pathfinder + devilfish + seeker missile and I have a 50% better chance of killing a flyer and 3 shots at it instead!!!
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Post by: megatrons2nd
How could the Rulebook FAQ not be trumped by a Codex FAQ? Especially when you consider that the Codex trumps the Rulebook. The FAQ is answering questions pertaining to the book that supersedes the rulebook, making Codex FAQ's higher on the pecking order over Rulebook FAQ's. Now if they remove or alter the Tau Empire FAQ entry to no longer be able to hit fliers, it becomes a different story. As it stands, now, Seeker missiles hit fliers on a 2+.
@ above poster: Pretty much everything(with rare exceptions) in the Tau Empire codex is overpriced, or underpowered, whichever way you want to look at it. Those railguns might be needed elsewhere so the added option is needed, not necessarily the best, or most cost efficient.
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Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote:So what does it say? I know it doesn't say "in all regards apart from if it is firing at flyers or snap shooting".
"This shooting is resolved NORMALLY IN ALL REGARDS at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"
I bolded the important word you're ignoring.
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Post by: megatrons2nd
Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
megatrons2nd wrote:Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.
What he said!!
I was going to write the same thing myself. The shot is resolved normally at BS5 as snap shots are not normal shots.
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Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.
What he said!!
I was going to write the same thing myself. The shot is resolved normally at BS5 as snap shots are not normal shots.
Then you cannot hit a Flyer per the Flyer FAQ. You have no exception to the requirement of Snap Shotting (like Skyfire, Vector Strikes, etc have) and therefore do not meet the rules required to hit a Flyer.
You can resolve it normally - but cannot hit a Flyer without making a Snap Shot.
You're going to say "It's a conflict and Codex > BRB!!one"
No - there's no conflict. BRB requires Snap Shot. Codex does not specify that it does not require Snap Shot.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Normally would ignore snap shots as snap shots is not normally. Snap shots are an exception to the rule, not the normal way of resolving it.
What he said!!
I was going to write the same thing myself. The shot is resolved normally at BS5 as snap shots are not normal shots.
Then you cannot hit a Flyer per the Flyer FAQ. You have no exception to the requirement of Snap Shotting (like Skyfire, Vector Strikes, etc have) and therefore do not meet the rules required to hit a Flyer.
You can resolve it normally - but cannot hit a Flyer without making a Snap Shot.
You're going to say "It's a conflict and Codex > BRB!!one"
No - there's no conflict. BRB requires Snap Shot. Codex does not specify that it does not require Snap Shot.
This 100% this.
After talking/hashing it out and looking at all the outcomes.
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Post by: Drager
What about the argument that it is a snapshot, as the snapshot rule has taken effect, but is at BS5, due to the seeker missile FAQ. Similarly to how an instant death wound is still an instant death wound against an EW model.
For the other side can anyone answer whether the parallel to the signum, another set modifier specifically mentioned in the flier FAQ, which is not allowed to hit fliers is relevant. It seems to be.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Drager wrote:What about the argument that it is a snapshot, as the snapshot rule has taken effect, but is at BS5, due to the seeker missile FAQ. Similarly to how an instant death wound is still an instant death wound against an EW model.
For the other side can anyone answer whether the parallel to the signum, another set modifier specifically mentioned in the flier FAQ, which is not allowed to hit fliers is relevant. It seems to be.
Resolved as snap shot
vs
Fired as snap shot
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Post by: Drager
Rules for difference between resolved as and fired as?
When you resolve as a snapshot you follow the snapshot rule, which then sets the bs to 1. Why is this not covered by the Tau FAQ? Please don't just assert that resolved as a snapshot means you need a 6, support that assertion. Haven't found anyone who has yet.
I am, in this debate a fence sitter, so help me make up, rather than change my mind :]
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Post by: DAaddict
megatrons2nd wrote:
@ above poster: Pretty much everything(with rare exceptions) in the Tau Empire codex is overpriced, or underpowered, whichever way you want to look at it. Those railguns might be needed elsewhere so the added option is needed, not necessarily the best, or most cost efficient.
Given that fact, I will chose to field an extra unit of broadsides before I would worry about markerlight/seeker missiles. And given the relative crappy chance of a favorable end result I would fire any broadsides at the flyer and have the seeker missile target the vehicle unless it is an AV14.
Continue to argue for what - I will agree- makes sense, a snapfired markerlight hit fulfills the snapfire requirement and then the seeker missile should get a chance to hit at 5+. I am just saying GO FOR IT. With an overpriced/underpowered codex, if you want to field markerlights and seeker missiles to cover for your anti-air. You are doing an auto-lose choice. Personnally I will field 3 units of 2 broadsides and not look back whether my seekers can hit at BS1 or BS5.
My problem - as the codex has aged - is the cost of markerlights is ludicrous. Markerlights and crisis suits are the things that make the Tau different and interesting... But I am not about to pay 120 points for a squad to add 20 points to get one guy with a markerlight to fire a 10 point one-shot missile that I need - at minimum- a 65 point vehicle to mount on... Markerlights need to be cheaper and more useful to give the tau their flavor.
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Post by: Lungpickle
Right but iirc theres a faq that states markerlights cant be used to bypass the snapfire rule.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Lungpickle wrote:Right but iirc theres a faq that states markerlights cant be used to bypass the snapfire rule.
you are correct.
"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."
So the BS1 can not ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
DeathReaper wrote:Lungpickle wrote:Right but iirc theres a faq that states markerlights cant be used to bypass the snapfire rule.
you are correct.
"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."
So the BS1 can not ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack.
That FAQ is irrelevant considering the fact that a Markerlight doesn't affect the BS of a seeker missile, it just enables it to fire. Nothing to do with it's BS.
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Post by: DeathReaper
So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?
If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.
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Post by: Ub3rb3n
The rulebooks FAQ says there is nothing that can increase a ballistic skill of a snapshot
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Post by: Mega_Nob
DeathReaper wrote:So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?
If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.
The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile? If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.
The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.
So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"? Remember "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5" How do you normally hit a Zooming Flyer if your BS is 5?
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Post by: FenixZero
DeathReaper wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?
If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.
The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.
So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"?
You keep harping on this, is not possible that Seeker are an exception?
Also, in the sense that FAQ <- Codex <- BRB; Snap Shots reduce BS to 1,after all of the math to modify your BS, a Snap Shot sets it to 1. The Seeker Missile on the other hand always 'hits' on 2+ ( BS 5), the Tau FAQ shows this. No matter what your final BS is, it is set to 5 for the purpose of seeing if the Missile hits. That fits the FAQ <- Codex <- BRB rule in the BRB.
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Post by: DeathReaper
FenixZero wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?
If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.
The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.
So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"?
You keep harping on this, is not possible that Seeker are an exception?
No, because the seekers do not say they are an exception.
Vector strike has a specific exception to that, as does the Skyfire rule. Seekers do not have a specific exception.
64433
Post by: FenixZero
DeathReaper wrote:FenixZero wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: DeathReaper wrote:So what is the BS of the vehicle that is firing the seeker missile?
If it is not BS5 then that is a modification.
The BS of the vehicle firing it would be 1 for the purposes of the snap shot rule, but then the FAQ says if your vehicle is reduced to BS1 then you still fire the seeker at BS5.
So why are you breaking the rule that says "Only snap shots can hit a zooming Flyer"?
You keep harping on this, is not possible that Seeker are an exception?
No, because the seekers do not say they are an exception.
Vector strike has a specific exception to that, as does the Skyfire rule. Seekers do not have a specific exception.
OK, what about the rest of my post?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
FenixZero wrote:Also, in the sense that FAQ <- Codex <- BRB; Snap Shots reduce BS to 1,after all of the math to modify your BS, a Snap Shot sets it to 1. The Seeker Missile on the other hand always 'hits' on 2+ ( BS 5), the Tau FAQ shows this. No matter what your final BS is, it is set to 5 for the purpose of seeing if the Missile hits. That fits the FAQ <- Codex <- BRB rule in the BRB.
If it's set to 5 it's not a Snap Shot - by definition.
62229
Post by: Minx
This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5
" normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer).
(*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5
Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception).
(**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot?
(***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
 Minx wrote:This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5
" normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer). (*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5 Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception). (**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot? (***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation
A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.
53251
Post by: xole
40k-noob wrote: Minx wrote:This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5
" normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer).
(*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5
Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception).
(**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot?
(***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation
A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.
By that definition, you would not be able to shoot a flyer at all. Which is an equally obtuse argument that could be made since the same faq disallows marker lights to be used to fire seeker missiles from overwatch, overwatch also being a snapshot.
I'm confused how shooting normally is equivalent to always shooting at bs5.
62229
Post by: Minx
40k-noob wrote:A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.
" Normally in all regards" obviously refers to treating the firing seeker in an identical manner (but resolved at BS5) to firing any generic weapon in the same specific circumstances (e.g. snap shot due to prior fast movement). It does not limit the applicable situations.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
I was looking at the BRB FAQ just now and it says:
Q:"Can I choose to make a snap shot rather than a normal shot?"
A: No
This proves that a snap shot is not a normal shot. Now I look at the Tau codex for seekers and it says "fires normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5". So I fire it at BS5, normally.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Yes, normally you fire at BS5.
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
rigeld2 wrote:Yes, normally you fire at BS5.
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.
Indeed, so you agree? I fire normally (meaning at BS5, like you say) in all regards (meaning in all circumstances that I am shooting eg, snap shot).
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
How does that FAQ not prove it?
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Because it just doesn't. The FAQ doesn't say all flyers are purple either.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Because either a snapshot is not a normal shot, and you fire at BS1 anyway, or a snapshot is a normal shot, and since you are firing at BS5 you cannot hit it as per the flyer FAQ. You dont have specific permission to ignore the snapshot restriction imposed by the FAQ, and the seeker is a weapon/attack, thus you cannot hit with it at all.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Yes, normally you fire at BS5.
You've proven that a snap shot is not a normal shot.
Indeed, so you agree? I fire normally (meaning at BS5, like you say) in all regards (meaning in all circumstances that I am shooting eg, snap shot).
No. You fire at bs5 for normal shots.
A snap shot is not a normal shot.
You've proven both of those sentences.
64433
Post by: FenixZero
xole wrote:40k-noob wrote: Minx wrote:This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5
" normally in all regards": The shot is handled identical(*) to a shot fired from unit A at unit B (e.g. regular shot with BS 3, snap shot after some special situation or a snap shot at a flyer).
(*) with the exception that it is done with an assumed ballistic skill of 5
Therefore if the missile is shot at a flyer it is shot(**) and resolved(***) as a snap shot, i.e. it can hit and wound/damage the flyer, with the exception (codex tau, seeker rule from above) that a 2+ is sufficient. It's still a snap shot (with an exception).
(**) To fire at a flyer without the sky fire rule it needs to be shot as a snap shot. Can i fire a seeker missile as a snap shot?
(***) "normally in all regards" and therefore as a snap shot as is required in this situation
A SNAPSHOT is not a NORMAL shot. If the Seeker is firing "normally in all regards", then it is not making a SNAPSHOT.
By that definition, you would not be able to shoot a flyer at all. Which is an equally obtuse argument that could be made since the same faq disallows marker lights to be used to fire seeker missiles from overwatch, overwatch also being a snapshot.
I'm confused how shooting normally is equivalent to always shooting at bs5.
Not shooting Seekers during overwatch is because they are mounts on vehicles and vehicles are prevent from being able to fire Overwatch.
(EDIT: You could (in theory) use a Networked Markerlight (from the Marker Drone) during Overwatch, just not to increase your BS)
As to the rest of the discussion, to me it makes sense that Seekers would fire at BS5, its a static value just the Snap Shot rule is. This is the reason that Markerlights can't be used to modify BS of a Snap Shot because they occur at the END of the BS calculating math. To me the BS5 of a Seeker is the same. It happens at the end of the math.
The question then is, to me, which of the 'final' modifiers (Snap Shot or Seeker BS5) happens first. My money is that the Snap Shot rule happens first, then the BS is modified to 5 by the rules of the Seeker Missile. That still makes it a Snap Shot, just one that is resolved at BS5.
Also, how do Psyker powers play into your 'if its not BS, it's not a Snap Shot' viewpoint? I know that there is at least on power that let you make Overwatch (Snap Shots) at full BS, are those not Snap Shots anymore?
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
No, that ruling only applies to a zooming flyer. Overwatch and the like are different because they were not covered in the FAQ.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
Yeah but the FAQ says "can I fire a snap shot *instead of* a normal shot?". How does that not prove that a snap shot is not a normal shot?
I eat a custard sandwich (not normal) instead of a ham sandwich (normal), they are both still a sandwich but each is completely different. Same thing, they are both shots, but one is normal and one is not.
62229
Post by: Minx
What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?
Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Minx wrote:What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?
Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?
If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:No, that ruling only applies to a zooming flyer. Overwatch and the like are different because they were not covered in the FAQ.
No, the FAQ is all encompassing, it basically says that in any situation where your BS is reduced to 1(eg, firing snap shots at a flyer), then the seeker still fires at BS5. The vehicle being stunned or shaken is just there to give examples.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.
62229
Post by: Minx
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.
Can i wound/damage something with an abnormal shot?
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Not if we are refering to a Tau seeker vs. a flyer.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote: Minx wrote:What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?
Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?
If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.
Assuming that logic, the BS of 5 for a seeker cannot be changed in any way, because it is fired NORMALLY (at full BS) in ALL REGARDS (whether that be at a flyer, as a snap shot or a normal shot) at BS5. Nothing can modify the BS of 5 because it fires normally no matter what the circumstances of the shot are.
61964
Post by: Fragile
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Crew Shaken:: The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn
I think this FAQ gives enough to say that the BS is 5 for resolving shots at the Flyers. Those shots can only be resolved as Snap Shots. On that FAQ they give Shaken/Stunned as an example which states when firing Snap shots, the missile is still BS 5. I see nothing so far to say that a Snap Shot at a Flyer would be any different than a Snap Shot after being stunned.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote: Minx wrote:What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?
Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?
If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.
Assuming that logic, the BS of 5 for a seeker cannot be changed in any way, because it is fired NORMALLY (at full BS) in ALL REGARDS (whether that be at a flyer, as a snap shot or a normal shot) at BS5. Nothing can modify the BS of 5 because it fires normally no matter what the circumstances of the shot are.
And because of that, the Flyer FAQ kicks in and the seeker cannot hit a flyer at all.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.
I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules. OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots", but this then directs me to the snap shot section of the rules, so when I go to p13 of the BRB and read the snap shot rule it says my BS counts as 1 for snap shots, if this is not an example of your BS being reduced to 1 then what is? Where is the word "resolved" in the snap shot part of the rules?
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote:You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.
I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules.
True Enough
OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots"
Aaaand stop. That all you need to say because you have defeated your own argument. They are resolved as snapshot. Aka, they are resolved at BS1.
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote:You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.
I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules. OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots", but this then directs me to the snap shot section of the rules, so when I go to p13 of the BRB and read the snap shot rule it says my BS counts as 1 for snap shots, if this is not an example of your BS being reduced to 1 then what is? Where is the word "resolved" in the snap shot part of the rules?
in the part of (hard to hit)
62238
Post by: MarkyMark
And he will ignore hard to hit and say the FAQ covers everything and the FAQ means he can, he isnt going to change his mind nor a few of the other people that have argued the FAQ allows them to ignore hard to hit.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote: Minx wrote:What is a normal shot? And what is a snap shot?
Can there be modifications/exceptions to the above shots without changing the classification of the shot?
If something modifies a shot, then it, by definition, is no longer normal. If something changes the way something normally operates then that change makes it abnormal.
Assuming that logic, the BS of 5 for a seeker cannot be changed in any way, because it is fired NORMALLY (at full BS) in ALL REGARDS (whether that be at a flyer, as a snap shot or a normal shot) at BS5. Nothing can modify the BS of 5 because it fires normally no matter what the circumstances of the shot are.
And because of that, the Flyer FAQ kicks in and the seeker cannot hit a flyer at all.
How does this sound?
Oh no, I want to shoot at a flyer, but dang, the rules say I can't without it being a snap shot, oh wait a minute, it's a seeker I'm firing, but that can fire normally in all regards at BS5. Yey, I can fire it. "in all regards" is a blanket statement, it covers every circumstance of firing, even at a flyer that has been marker lit.
61964
Post by: Fragile
There is no real conflict here. All shots at a Flyer must be resolved as a Snap Shot. Seeker missiles fire at BS5 on Snap shots.
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
Fragile wrote:There is no real conflict here. All shots at a Flyer must be resolved as a Snap Shot. Seeker missiles fire at BS5 on Snap shots.
Yep, and are resolved at BS1
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Go ahead and fire it normally. Now I will tell you (again), and probably not for the last time, If you do not fire as a snapshot (which BS5 is not) then the Flyer FAQ says you cannot hit. Normally in all regards means you fire it using the hard to hit rule.
45838
Post by: TechMarine1
Hey guys, doesn't the BRB also say to roll a d6 when you have conflicting special rules?
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote:You are not reduced to BS1. You resolve the shot as if you were BS1. I would refer you back to pages 1-6 where this argument has been made constantly but you seem to ignore it every time it comes up.
I'll tell you what I do ignore, the word "resolved", because that isn't in the snap shot rules. OK, admittedly, the flyer part says "all shots at flyers are 'resolved' as snap shots", but this then directs me to the snap shot section of the rules, so when I go to p13 of the BRB and read the snap shot rule it says my BS counts as 1 for snap shots, if this is not an example of your BS being reduced to 1 then what is? Where is the word "resolved" in the snap shot part of the rules?
in the part of (hard to hit)
Yes, I just quoted it so I am not ignoring it. The bit where I said "all shots at flyers are resolved as snap shots", that is from p81 in the BRB, top left of the page. And since the hard to hit part sends you to the snap shot part, where does it say "resolved" at BS1 on p13 of the BRB where the snap shot rule is?
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Mega_Nob wrote:"all shots at flyers are resolved as snap shots", that is from p81 in the BRB, top left of the page.
Right there.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.
62229
Post by: Minx
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Go ahead and fire it normally. Now I will tell you (again), and probably not for the last time, If you do not fire as a snapshot ( which BS5 is not) then the Flyer FAQ says you cannot hit. Normally in all regards means you fire it using the hard to hit rule.
That's not what the faq says; it's not talking about _firing_ as a snap shot.
And a different BS doesn't change the nature of the shot (snap shot or something else; otherwise a vehicle that is restricted to only fire snap shots cannot fire a seeker missile, that is fired and resolved as a normal shot following your argument. The tau faq says something else though).
61964
Post by: Fragile
Hard to Hit.
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots
Nothing about "resolving" at BS 1. It says to resolve as a "Snap Shot", which the Tau FAQ says your fire at BS5. Your trying to combine two rules here into one. HTH and Snap Shots. There is no "resolved" in the Snap Shot rule. It states..
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots
Its BS "being counted as 1" definitely fits into "If a vehicle is reduced to BS1". Therefore, the missile will fire at BS5
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Happyjew wrote:I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.
This is exactly right. Im glad that someone gets it.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Go ahead and fire it normally. Now I will tell you (again), and probably not for the last time, If you do not fire as a snapshot (which BS5 is not) then the Flyer FAQ says you cannot hit. Normally in all regards means you fire it using the hard to hit rule.
So, if I went to a restaraunt that has a rule where you can only eat with a fork, then I eat with a fork, but then I get a pass that says "In all regards this man can eat with a spoon" that means I can eat anything with a spoon, does this mean that I can only eat desserts with a spoon? No, because it over-rides the fork rule. Does it mean I can eat anything with a spoon? Yes. I am not limited to only using a spoon for certain things.
So, the rule says, flyers can only be hit with snap shots, but then the codex says I can fire a seeker at anything that has been hit with a markerlight at BS5. Does this mean I can only fire at ground units with a seeker at BS5? No. Does it mean I can fire at anything with a seeker at BS5? Yes, because it over-rides the Hard to Hit/ Snap Shot rule, as long as the target has been marker lit. I am not limited to firing at certain things. As long as it has been marker lit, I fire at it and roll to hit with BS5.
I know that is a clumsy example but I'm hoping you understand my point! :-)
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
I'm going to try his argument and see if it works on him.
No you cant.
Now its your turn to say "yes I can"
And then I will reply with "No you cant"
Because rules really dont seem to effect you as long as you keep saying "Yes I can"
62229
Post by: Minx
A wise and famous man once said "Yes we can".
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
He did not play 40K.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I'm going to try his argument and see if it works on him.
No you cant.
Now its your turn to say "yes I can"
And then I will reply with "No you cant"
Because rules really dont seem to effect you as long as you keep saying "Yes I can"
Nor you as long as you can say "No you can't" :-P
Well, it is nearly Pantomime season!! Haha.
Maybe we all just have to agree to disagree and use our own interpretations of the rules for our own games (if our opponents agree of course!). I really don't want to join this site and have a load of people fall out with me straight away so I will call it a day where this is concerned until GW sort it out in an FAQ or something.
For The Greater Good :-)
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Minx wrote:A wise and famous man once said "Yes we can".
Did he also say "but first we have to make a plan"?
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Resolved as snap shots, and resolved normally in all respects at BS5. Both are resolved, so your "resolved" at point is moot because both rules tell us to "resolve" the shot. And as we have all read in the main rulebook, that codex rules take precedence as the main rulebook is not a comprehensive all encompassing set of rules, it is just the most common rules, and there are more in the army codecies. The main rulebook states something very similar on pg7 and pg32. The markerlight special rule is a special rule and not covered in the core rulebook. As even the special rules section tells you there are other special rules, these rules may still alter rules, and are said to take precedent over the main rulebooks rules.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
I am going to put this nicely, one more time.
You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I am going to put this nicely, one more time.
You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.
NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Normally, ignores exceptions, which is what the flier is. Normally uses the NORMAL rules. The flier uses an EXCEPTION to those rules. Snap shots are for certain situations, and alters to the NORMAL rules, so if you are firing snap shots you are not firing NORMALLY.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote:NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!
No - you resolve the shot normally at BS5.
You've proven that a Snap Shot is not a normal shot.
Therefore it's an abnormal situation which isn't covered in the "normally in all respects" rule.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.
Flyer FAQ. Snapshot or no hit.
Im just going to start quoting old arguments now.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Maybe we all just have to agree to disagree and use our own interpretations of the rules for our own games (if our opponents agree of course!). I really don't want to join this site and have a load of people fall out with me straight away so I will call it a day where this is concerned until GW sort it out in an FAQ or something.
For The Greater Good :-)
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
megatrons2nd wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.
I mean the part I bolded.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
megatrons2nd wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.
It does not invalidate it. Just like your FAQ doesn't invalidate the HtH or Snapshot rule.
Your Seeker FAQ is addressing a general shooting situation while the other FAQ is addressing specifically shooting at Flyers.
If you fire at a land unit your BS5 is used to determine hits because there is nothing that define or changes how to resolve hits against land units.
However if you fire at a Zooming Flyer then the HtH rule kicks in and your are resolved as Snapshots, just like if you fired at it normally aside from the vehicle being stunned or shaken.
It is no different from any other unit firing at a Zooming Flyer, that has not been forced to snapshot.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Which is superseded by the Tau Empire seeker missile FAQ, that I quoted directly below it.
Snap shots are the only way you can reduce a vehicles BS to 1. Be it from moving, shaken, stunned, or shooting at a flier.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Vindicare-Obsession wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.
I mean the part I bolded.
Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!! I even have a friend here asking about the debate as I type, after telling him some basic in and outs he asked me some questions after perusing the relevant rules:
Q1: So I can only hit a flyer using snap shots then? Yes.
Q2: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1 in certain circumstances.
Q3: So that means it is definitley a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes.
Q4: In that FAQ there (Tau FAQ) does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes.
He then says:
"OK then your seeker missile fires at BS5, how do people not get that?" His words not mine. And bear in mind he doesn't even play any war games. He just read the RAW.
And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the snap shot rules or the FAQ.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote:
Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!
Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1.
Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes.
Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes.
And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above.
By this argument, someone with an Unwiedly weapon has an initiative of 1.
And you failed to reference a section - the Hard to Hit section which is what forces the snapshot mentions "resolved". Please go through all of the involved rules instead of just ones that help your argument.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.
I mean the part I bolded.
Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!
Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1. -- Your BS is COUNTED as being 1
Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes. -- No, your BS is the same, but is counted as BS for the purposes of those shots only.
Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes. -- No, a Seeker Missile has no BS, it is assumed to be BS5 because of the Markerlight use.
And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above. -- You should read pg 81 under the HtH rule
Incorrect. See my bold remarks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
megatrons2nd wrote:Which is superseded by the Tau Empire seeker missile FAQ, that I quoted directly below it.
Snap shots are the only way you can reduce a vehicles BS to 1. Be it from moving, shaken, stunned, or shooting at a flier.
You are wrong, Snapshot do not Reduce your BS. You should read pg 13 again.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Happyjew wrote:I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.
Happyjew understands the concept. I am not reducing you to BS1. If you fire at a different unit you still use full BS. By shooting at me, you count as BS1 naturally.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:
Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!
Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1.
Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes.
Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes.
And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above.
By this argument, someone with an Unwiedly weapon has an initiative of 1.
And you failed to reference a section - the Hard to Hit section which is what forces the snapshot mentions "resolved". Please go through all of the involved rules instead of just ones that help your argument.
Ok I will revise the questions accordingly:
Q1: Can I shoot at a flyer? Yes but they are hard to hit.
Q2: What does this mean? It means I can only "resolve" shots at a flyer as snap shots.
Q3: What is a snap shot? A shooting attack that reduces your BS to 1 in certain situations.
Q4: So it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? Yes
Q5: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes. Automatically Appended Next Post: If my BS is being counted as 1 then it has been reduced from whatever number it was before!!
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
It is not reducing your BS. It is counting as if you were BS 1 naturally.This is about the best way I can explain it in terms of this FAQ.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
False. Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1. edit: A Terminator from C: SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote:You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.
Which has no relevance to my point. edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots. Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.
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Post by: undertow
Mega_Nob wrote:He then says:
"OK then your seeker missile fires at BS5, how do people not get that?" His words not mine. And bear in mind he doesn't even play any war games. He just read the RAW.
So because someone who has never played the game says so, the debate is over?
This is the lamest Appeal to Authority I've ever seen.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.
Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.
OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 undertow wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:He then says:
"OK then your seeker missile fires at BS5, how do people not get that?" His words not mine. And bear in mind he doesn't even play any war games. He just read the RAW.
So because someone who has never played the game says so, the debate is over?
This is the lamest Appeal to Authority I've ever seen.
Not an appeal to authority but a reference to someone reading the rules and taking them literally.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
40k-noob wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.
Do you mean this one? How does that in any way invalidate this one:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
It does not auto hit, blast or line, maelstrom, template, blast marker, nova...... It only says that it is resolve at BS5. And as we already know the special rules in a codex supersede rules in the main rulebook.
I mean the part I bolded.
Bah, now I feel obliged to step back in!!
Q1: What is a snap shot in the rule book? A: A shot that reduces your BS to 1. -- Your BS is COUNTED as being 1
Q2: Does that mean it is a situation where your BS is reduced to 1? A: Yes. -- No, your BS is the same, but is counted as BS for the purposes of those shots only.
Q3: In the Tau FAQ does it say if your BS is reduced to 1 your seeker still fires at BS5? Yes. -- No, a Seeker Missile has no BS, it is assumed to be BS5 because of the Markerlight use.
And before anybody brings up the word "resolved", it is not mentioned at all in any part of the rulebook or FAQ I just looked at to reference the above. -- You should read pg 81 under the HtH rule
Incorrect. See my bold remarks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
megatrons2nd wrote:Which is superseded by the Tau Empire seeker missile FAQ, that I quoted directly below it.
Snap shots are the only way you can reduce a vehicles BS to 1. Be it from moving, shaken, stunned, or shooting at a flier.
You are wrong, Snapshot do not Reduce your BS. You should read pg 13 again.
If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.
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Post by: rigeld2
Mega_Nob wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.
Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.
OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5
So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative.
We know this is false.
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Post by: FenixZero
rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.
Which has no relevance to my point.
edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots.
Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.
OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5
So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative.
We know this is false.
For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.
But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
FenixZero wrote:For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.
No, it doesn't.
BRB Page 43 wrote:A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1,
Just like a model firing at a Flyer resolves as a Snap Shot, but is not making a Snap Shot.
But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.
The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
Mega_Nob wrote:
If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.
It can't and it doesn't.
SNAPSHOTS:
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots"
Snapshots do not modify your BS at all, but if you are forced to SNAPSHOT, as in the case of firing at a Zooming Flyer, then the BS is COUNTED as being 1.
You and others here keep pointing to the TAU FAQ and that is fine, your Seeker Missiles is not affected by Stunned and Shaken results. I will grant you that.
Guess what though, you are STILL affected by the HtH rule if you target a Zooming Flyer.
Shaken/Stunned = no effect on Seeker Missiles that does not absolve your seeker missiles of the HtH rule.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
40k-noob wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:
If you say a seeker has no BS then that is one of my points earlier in the thread, if it has no BS to modify, How can it be modified to BS1 for the purposes of a snap shot? It can't and always hits at an assumed BS of 5.
It can't and it doesn't.
SNAPSHOTS:
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots"
Snapshots do not modify your BS at all, but if you are forced to SNAPSHOT, as in the case of firing at a Zooming Flyer, then the BS is COUNTED as being 1.
You and others here keep pointing to the TAU FAQ and that is fine, your Seeker Missiles is not affected by Stunned and Shaken results. I will grant you that.
Guess what though, you are STILL affected by the HtH rule if you target a Zooming Flyer.
Shaken/Stunned = no effect on Seeker Missiles that does not absolve your seeker missiles of the HtH rule.
Shaken or stunned (which only allow you to fire snap shots, much like you have to at a flyer) are just there as examples, which incidentally, the FAQ references as circumstances where your BS is reduced to 1, thus proving that snap shots do indeed reduce your BS to 1.
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Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:Happyjew wrote:I see it similar to model using an unwieldy weapon. Unwieldy weapons strike at Init 1. It doesn't make you Init 1. If you are affected by something in CC that requires an Init test it is made at your normal Init (unless something else is affecting you). If you fire at a Flyer, you are still BS 3/4/5 etc. The shot is resolved as if you were BS 1. However, your BS is not reduced in any way. Since you do not reduce the BS of the firing model, the Tau FAQ does not get referenced.
Happyjew understands the concept. I am not reducing you to BS1. If you fire at a different unit you still use full BS. By shooting at me, you count as BS1 naturally.
All of these arguments have been heard and rebuked. This is starting to give me a headache.
61964
Post by: Fragile
rigeld2 wrote:
False.
Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1.
edit:
A Terminator from C: SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.
The FAQ disagrees with this. It clearly gives Shaken and Stunned as examples of a vehicles BS being reduced. Both of those state the Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots. Therefore firing a Snap Shot is reducing the Vehicles BS.
47372
Post by: Vindicare-Obsession
It does not reduce BS. It treats the shot as if it wsa fired from a BS1 model. It is resolved as if the model was BS1 to begin with.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I am going to put this nicely, one more time.
You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.
NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!
And then the FaQ kicks in that says "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming flyer."
How does a model, with BS5 hit a zooming flyer normally? (Hint: it fires and needs a 6 to hit as the shot is resolved as a snap shot).
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
False.
Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1.
edit:
A Terminator from C: SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.
The FAQ disagrees with this. It clearly gives Shaken and Stunned as examples of a vehicles BS being reduced. Both of those state the Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots. Therefore firing a Snap Shot is reducing the Vehicles BS.
Yes, firing a Snap Shot does so.
Resolving as a Snap Shot does not.
61964
Post by: Fragile
Vindicare-Obsession wrote:It does not reduce BS. It treats the shot as if it wsa fired from a BS1 model. It is resolved as if the model was BS1 to begin with.
If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Show me where in that FAQ, its says that says it is resolved as if the model had BS 1. I can show you where it says the vehicles BS is reduced. In fact, I even bolded it for you.
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Post by: paidinfull
rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Mega_Nob wrote:You might want to read the Tau FAQ. It says if your BS is reduced to 1, the examples being shaken or stunned, let's look at what happens if you are shaken or stunned. This says you can only make snap shots, the FAQ is directly referencing these as circumstances in which your BS is reduced to 1. Then it says the seeker still fires at BS5.
Which has no relevance to my point. edit: Shaken and stunned make you shoot snap shots. Hard to Hit does not. It forces you to resolve as a snap shot.
OK then, how do you "resolve" a snap shot? You can't resolve a snap shot without using the rules for snap shots. So you look at the snap shot rules and it says you use BS1 for the purposes of those shots. Now if we look at the FAQ, it references snap shots (in the form of the examples being shaken or stunned) as being definite circumstances when your BS IS REDUCED TO 1. Therefore, the seeker still fires, and is resolved, at BS5
So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative. We know this is false.
That's because it refers to Initiative Steps, not the actual Initiative characteristic. A couple points 1) Here is the definition of Snap Shot. There is no such thing as "resolving Snap Shots", but not "firing Snap Shots" if you disagree, then either kindly provide the appropriate rule quote and page or admit your error. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.
You will note that the rule is possessive and refers directly to modifying the model's ballistic skill characteristic. Since the new value is less than the original it has * reduced* that value. 2) Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots. p31 Codex:Tau Empire
Seeker Missiles
Ordinarily, the vehicle carrying the seeker missiles has no control over them and cannot launch them itself. The mechanism is remote and responds only to markerlight users. The missiles may always be fired, each at different targets if relevant, regardless of the distance the vehicle has moved or whether it has fired any other weapons. They may also be fired if the has suffered a Crew Stunned vehicle damage result.
"May always be fired" is all encompassing and very much covers the circumstances of Snap Shot and it is not a blast weapon so the BRB does not provide an exception. Seeker Missiles may be fired as Snap Shots Even if you don't understand that here\ is further proof in an example. A Skyray without any wargear moves 12". Per BRB, all of its weapons must fire via Snap Shot. The Network Markerlight scores a hit on an opposing vehicle. The player expends that token to fire the vehicles seeker missile. To be perfectly clear: The *vehicle* is firing the missile p 29 C:TE
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.
Now, since the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile it must be launched as a Snap Shot and the vehicles BS has been reduced to 1. However, per the C;TE the seeker missile is fired at an assumed BS5. So which takes precedence? The Codex which modifies the BS1 to BS5 or the BRB which reverts it back to BS1? To Clarify any confusion GW released an FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570052a_Tau_Empire_v1.1.pdf Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
The rule, sans example which can be removed since it's an example and not the rule itself, is as follows: Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
3) A Seeker Missile is no different from a Hunter Killer Missile, a Blood Strike Missile, or a Hellstrike Missile. It is a weapon on the vehicle and can be removed via weapon destroyed result. It. Is. A. Weapon. On. The. Vehicle As such, in order to fire, it must be fired *by the vehicle*. All this talk about Seeker Missiles not having a ballistic skill is ridiculous. Of course they don't, but that doesn't matter because weapons don't fire themselves. The vehicles do. 4) If you, as a player, say to your Tau opponent that they can't fire a Seeker Missile at a flyer, a weapon that has incredibly terrible odds at bringing down a flyer(2.3%) because it effectively requires 2x To Hit rolls, you must be ridiculously insecure. Two percent. If someone is lucky enough to beat those odds in a game, tournament or otherwise, (yes this is still a game, you know, meaning fun?) then I'm going to give it to them. 5) To Tau players. Don't shoot seeker missiles at flyers. It's dumb and your odds of success are infinitesimal. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote: False. Your BS is still 5. You may not resolve the hit at anything other than BS1. edit: A Terminator from C: SM has a 4 initiative. He may not swing his Power Fist at any initiative other than 1, however. That doesn't mean his Initiative is lowered.
The FAQ disagrees with this. It clearly gives Shaken and Stunned as examples of a vehicles BS being reduced. Both of those state the Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots. Therefore firing a Snap Shot is reducing the Vehicles BS.
Yes, firing a Snap Shot does so. Resolving as a Snap Shot does not.
Wrong. There is no such thing. Provide a rules quote. Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:Mega_Nob wrote: Vindicare-Obsession wrote:I am going to put this nicely, one more time. You resolve the shot NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS as BS5, NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a flyer is resolved at BS1. If you do not fire at BS1 you cannot hit regardless. Its that simple, either your BS1 or you cant hit at all.
NORMALLY IN ALL RESPECTS for a seeker is BS5. No matter what you are firing at!
And then the FaQ kicks in that says "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming flyer." How does a model, with BS5 hit a zooming flyer normally? (Hint: it fires and needs a 6 to hit as the shot is resolved as a snap shot).
Wrong. Per this interpretation Skyfire does nothing. A Model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.
Your incorrect interpretation means that even though you're shooting at your normal BS, only 6's actually hit the Flyer. Quite clearly you are wrong. Provide a rules quote to support your point.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
paidinfull wrote:It absolutely changes the bearers initiative *for the purposes of striking blows in combat* else the rule would have no effect and powerfists would strike at normal initiative. That's 100% how it works and not the way you're suggesting. If you continue to have any confusion about the definitions and meanings of "change" or "reduce" or "modify", I suggest you look up those words in a dictionary. In order for the rule to work it has to "modify" the initiative. If it does not, then it has no effect. If the modification is to a value below the original value then it has "reduced" that value.
Really? Perhaps you'd like to reference the rule. I'll make it easy for you.
UNWIELDY
This weapon is very large, and more than
a little clumsy, making swift blows all but
impossible to achieve.
A model attacking with this weapon
does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a
Monstrous Creature or a Walker.
It doesn't change your initiative. It makes you attack at Init 1.
A couple points
1) Here is the definition of Snap Shot. There is no such thing as "resolving Snap Shots", but not "firing Snap Shots" if you disagree, then either kindly provide the appropriate rule quote and page or admit your error.
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.
You will note that the rule is possessive and refers directly to modifying the model's ballistic skill characteristic. Since the new value is less than the original it has * reduced* that value.
Please reference the tenets of this subforum - dictionary definitions aren't always the best argument, especially not the Oxford one.
That rule says "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots". Hard to Hit says that you must resolve as a Snap Shot - it's not forcing you to make a Snap Shot. So either the rule does nothing (which is ridiculous and must be thrown out) or we understand that resolving as an action is not the same as taking that action.
However, per the C;TE the seeker missile is fired at an assumed BS5.
Normally that's true - you did leave out the word "normally" in your rules quote by the way. It has been proven, and you've quoted proof, where a Snap Shot is not a normal case.
4) If you, as a player, say to your Tau opponent that they can't fire a Seeker Missile at a flyer, a weapon that has incredibly terrible odds at bringing down a flyer(2.3%) because it effectively requires 2x To Hit rolls, you must be ridiculously insecure. Two percent. If someone is lucky enough to beat those odds in a game, tournament or otherwise, (yes this is still a game, you know, meaning fun?) then I'm going to give it to them.
5) To Tau players. Don't shoot seeker missiles at flyers. It's dumb and your odds of success are infinitesimal.
Completely irrelevant to the argument.
Wrong. There is no such thing.
Provide a rules quote.
Provide a rules quote to define the difference between the words "a" and "Any".
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
I can't follow this logic at all.
How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.
There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.
Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.
64433
Post by: FenixZero
rigeld2 wrote:FenixZero wrote:For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.
No, it doesn't.
If they are force to attack at 'Initiative Step 1' then their Initiative is effectively 1, because they can't take any actions on their normal Initiative. Otherwise a person with Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword would be able to attack at both their normal Initiative and Initiative 1. This simply isn't the case. All of your attack happen at the same time, so your Initiative has to be modified (to 1) for that to happen.
rigeld2 wrote:FenixZero wrote:But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.
The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.
I have no clue what Time's Arrow is, but I know that Hit and Run isn't an attack, but you requires an Initiative test to break out of combat, and a person with a Thunder Hammer (or any other Unwieldy Weapon) would take that test at their full Initiative.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
I'm going to break it down again because all of my arguments have been heard and rebuked, and I too am getting a headache.
Q1: Can I shoot at a zooming flyer? A:Yes, but you have to use the HTH rule (p81).
Q2: Ok, what is that rule? A:It says you can only resolve shots at a zooming flyer as snap shots.
Q3: Right, so how do I do that? You have to use the snap shot rule (p13).
Q4: What is that rule? This says that for the purposes of those shots your BS is counted as being 1.
Q5: But my BS is 5, I have to reduce it to 1? Yes, for snap shots you do.
Q6: But I'm firing with a Seeker missile, do I still have to do that? Ah, no you don't.
Q7: Why not? Because, the Tau FAQ says that if the vehicle firing the Seeker is reduced to BS1 the seeker still fires at BS5.
Q8: Woah, hang on a minute! I'm doubtful of that. The rules say I am counted as being BS1 for those shots doesn't it? Yes
Q9: So how come I can still use BS5? Because, the incidences referenced in the FAQ (Shaken or stunned) say that in those circumstances, only snap shots can be fired by the vehicle.
Q10: So how does that help me keep my BS5? Because, by citing shaken and stunned as examples of your BS being reduced to 1 via using snap shots, the FAQ is saying that firing a snap shot is a sitution where your BS would be reduced to 1.
Q11: Ah, so it is, so this backs up the codex where it says I fire my seeker at BS5 in all regards right? Yes, correct.
Q12: Why? Because the Seeker can only fire if a markerlight has hit a unit, in this case the unit is a zooming flyer and the seeker will always fire at an assumed BS of 5 at that unit.
Q13: Wow, that took a while, can I kill your flyer now? You can try.
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
 Savageconvoy wrote:I can't follow this logic at all.
How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.
There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.
Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.
You forgot an important part.
How do you hit a zooming flyer? Skyfire or SNAPSHOTS
Are Seeker Missiles SNAPSHOTS or Skyfire? No, they are not.
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Post by: paidinfull
rigeld2 wrote:paidinfull wrote:It absolutely changes the bearers initiative *for the purposes of striking blows in combat* else the rule would have no effect and powerfists would strike at normal initiative. That's 100% how it works and not the way you're suggesting. If you continue to have any confusion about the definitions and meanings of "change" or "reduce" or "modify", I suggest you look up those words in a dictionary. In order for the rule to work it has to "modify" the initiative. If it does not, then it has no effect. If the modification is to a value below the original value then it has "reduced" that value.
Really? Perhaps you'd like to reference the rule. I'll make it easy for you.
UNWIELDY
This weapon is very large, and more than
a little clumsy, making swift blows all but
impossible to achieve.
A model attacking with this weapon
does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a
Monstrous Creature or a Walker.
It doesn't change your initiative. It makes you attack at Init 1.
My initial response was under the pretenses of 5th, and it actually makes you attack during Initiative Step 1, not Initiative 1, and my post has been updated to reflect it as such.
rigeld2 wrote:
That rule says "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots". Hard to Hit says that you must resolve as a Snap Shot - it's not forcing you to make a Snap Shot. So either the rule does nothing (which is ridiculous and must be thrown out) or we understand that resolving as an action is not the same as taking that action.
This is a strawman argument. There is no such thing as "resolving" in the BRB without the context of it *firing* or *shooting*. None of those processes function as you suggest. Furthermore, in order to come up with a resolution or to "resolve" something you are required to take action and in this case follow a process. The process for this "resolution" is referenced p13 and tells us the steps to take in order to "resolve" it. In this case it is an explicit rule that tells us the model's ballistic skill is reduced to 1. None of which support your assertions specifically in this case where it clearly reduces the model's ballistic skill only to have the FAQ return it to BS5.
[ rigeld2 wrote:
Normally that's true - you did leave out the word "normally" in your rules quote by the way. It has been proven, and you've quoted proof, where a Snap Shot is not a normal case.
What you miss here, is that the circumstances are already "not normal". The expenditure of a Markerlight token has changed that so your point is incorrect. "It may always fire". The End. I've expended the token to meet the initial criteria after that I follow the process as outlined in the codex. You keep missing that key fact.
Actually it's not, since I've provided RAW and am outlining how petty your attempt at semantics is.
rigeld2 wrote:Provide a rules quote to define the difference between the words "a" and "Any".
So you can't provide a quote? Is that why you wrote this? Provide a rules quote that clearly outlines there is a difference between resolving a shot and shooting a shot. How do you come to a resolution of a Snap Shot, if you follow a process that is not the Snap Shot rule?
Also, stop avoiding the question and provide answer that outlines a rules quote from the BRB regarding the difference between "resolving by not taking action" and "taking an action" Automatically Appended Next Post: 40k-noob wrote: Savageconvoy wrote:I can't follow this logic at all.
How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.
There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.
Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.
You forgot an important part.
How do you hit a zooming flyer? Skyfire or SNAPSHOTS
Are Seeker Missiles SNAPSHOTS or Skyfire? No, they are not.
I outlined quite clearly the flaw in your Snap Shot logic.
Seeker Missiles "may always fire" provided you meet the initial criteria of expending a Marker light token.
The FAQ outlines that you cannot fire a Seeker Missile on Overwatch, however. This is obvious because the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile not the unit. Who gets Overwatch? The unit. Not the vehicle, hence why Seeker Missiles cannot be fired on Overwatch.
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Post by: rigeld2
FenixZero wrote:rigeld2 wrote:FenixZero wrote:For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.
No, it doesn't.
If they are force to attack at 'Initiative Step 1' then their Initiative is effectively 1, because they can't take any actions on their normal Initiative. Otherwise a person with Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword would be able to attack at both their normal Initiative and Initiative 1. This simply isn't the case. All of your attack happen at the same time, so your Initiative has to be modified (to 1) for that to happen.
False. A model with a Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword must choose which to attack with, per the rules - they cannot attack with both. Your initiative is not modified. Time's Arrow would be a much, MUCH better item if it was modified.
rigeld2 wrote:FenixZero wrote:But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.
The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.
I have no clue what Time's Arrow is, but I know that Hit and Run isn't an attack, but you requires an Initiative test to break out of combat, and a person with a Thunder Hammer (or any other Unwieldy Weapon) would take that test at their full Initiative.
Time's Arrow is a C'Tan power that forces an initiative test on a model in B2B. Your assertion that the initiative is modified would mean that the test fails on anything but a 1.
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Post by: DeathReaper
paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The FaQ kicks in that says "Only snap shots can hit a Zooming flyer." How does a model, with BS5 hit a zooming flyer normally? (Hint: it fires and needs a 6 to hit as the shot is resolved as a snap shot).
Wrong. Per this interpretation Skyfire does nothing. A Model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers.
Your incorrect interpretation means that even though you're shooting at your normal BS, only 6's actually hit the Flyer. Quite clearly you are wrong. Provide a rules quote to support your point.
Wrong. Hard to hit says: "Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)." The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule. It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles. Please understand the difference and note that I am correct.
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Post by: doktor_g
Would this be resolved if a Tau FAQ awarded the sky fire trait to seekers?
53575
Post by: 40k-noob
paidinfull wrote:40k-noob wrote: Savageconvoy wrote:I can't follow this logic at all.
How do I shoot fliers?
I resolve it as a snap fire shot.
What's snap fire?
Shoot at BS1
Are Seeker missiles affected by snap shots?
FAQ says VERY CLEARLY that they aren't.
There is no basis for the argument other than glossing over key details and assuming the FAQ that SPECIFICALLY COVERS THE EXACT QUESTION has no relevance.
Oh, and referencing Unweildy when looking at snap shots is kinda funny since I wouldn't look at the rules for pile in when determining a deepstrike, or night fighting when rolling for reserves. The language may be similar, but the situation is entirely different. Since sweeping advance is considered, they clarify that the I isn't considered for that, but they didn't with snap fire because there is no sweeping advance to consider.
You forgot an important part.
How do you hit a zooming flyer? Skyfire or SNAPSHOTS
Are Seeker Missiles SNAPSHOTS or Skyfire? No, they are not.
I outlined quite clearly the flaw in your Snap Shot logic.
Seeker Missiles "may always fire" provided you meet the initial criteria of expending a Marker light token.
The FAQ outlines that you cannot fire a Seeker Missile on Overwatch, however. This is obvious because the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile not the unit. Who gets Overwatch? The unit. Not the vehicle, hence why Seeker Missiles cannot be fired on Overwatch.
If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.
As for your Overwatch point, show anywhere in any game where you as unit being charged still have a Markerlight token on the charging unit and I will grant you that seeker missile shot. Automatically Appended Next Post:  doktor_g wrote:Would this be resolved if a Tau FAQ awarded the sky fire trait to seekers?
yes
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
DeathReaper wrote:Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.
It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.
Please understand the difference.
But Seeker missiles are still unaffected by Snap Shots. Provide an quote that specifies that the Seeker missiles are affected by snap shots. The FAQ clearly provides guidance that they bypass the rule, and you keep trying to force the rule on it. Automatically Appended Next Post: And a unit can still fire a markerlight on overwatch, if it hits then it gets a markerlight token. That's how you'd get a marker token on a charging unit.
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Post by: rigeld2
paidinfull wrote:[ rigeld2 wrote:
Normally that's true - you did leave out the word "normally" in your rules quote by the way. It has been proven, and you've quoted proof, where a Snap Shot is not a normal case.
What you miss here, is that the circumstances are already "not normal". The expenditure of a Markerlight token has changed that so your point is incorrect. "It may always fire". The End. I've expended the token to meet the initial criteria after that I follow the process as outlined in the codex. You keep missing that key fact.
Erm. No? Cite where I've said you're unable to fire.
You're able to fire normally. Snap Shots are not normal, and therefore rules that apply normally do not always apply there.
So you can't provide a quote? Is that why you wrote this? Provide a rules quote that clearly outlines there is a difference between resolving a shot and shooting a shot. How do you come to a resolution of a Snap Shot, if you follow a process that is not the Snap Shot rule?
Also, stop avoiding the question and provide answer that outlines a rules quote from the BRB regarding the difference between "resolving by not taking action" and "taking an action"
The point I'm making by asking you to define the difference is that the rulebook does not always define everything - indeed it cannot.
I outlined quite clearly the flaw in your Snap Shot logic.
Seeker Missiles "may always fire" provided you meet the initial criteria of expending a Marker light token.
Blasts may always fire as well. Blasts are not permitted to hit (indeed - target) Fliers. Why is that? Because Fliers require a Snap Shot to be targetted/hit. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mega_Nob wrote:Q2: Ok, what is that rule? A:It says you can only resolve shots at a zooming flyer as snap shots.
Remember to take into account the FAQ that says only Snap Shots may hit/target a Flyer.
Q6: But I'm firing with a Seeker missile, do I still have to do that? Ah, no you don't.
So then you're not making a Snap Shot?
Q11: Ah, so it is, so this backs up the codex where it says I fire my seeker at BS5 in all regards right? Yes, correct.
Please stop misquoting that rule.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Savageconvoy wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.
It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.
Please understand the difference.
But Seeker missiles are still unaffected by Snap Shots. Provide an quote that specifies that the Seeker missiles are affected by snap shots. The FAQ clearly provides guidance that they bypass the rule, and you keep trying to force the rule on it.
"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).
There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).
Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.
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Post by: paidinfull
40k-noob wrote: If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.
Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say " It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired " at an assumed BS5". Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots. 40k-noob wrote: As for your Overwatch point, show anywhere in any game where you as unit being charged still have a Markerlight token on the charging unit and I will grant you that seeker missile shot.
I wasn't asserting they get that shot, because they clearly don't. Simply illustrating how the mechanic worked. Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.
It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.
Please understand the difference and note that I am correct.
You're right there is an exception there for Skyfire and I clearly missed that.
That being said, if you would walk us all through the process of "resolving" a Snap Shot.
I'd like to understand what you think this process is and where that is outlined in the rules.
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Post by: DeathReaper
paidinfull wrote:40k-noob wrote:
If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.
Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say " It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired " at an assumed BS5".
Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.
Good, now what do you need to hit with a snap shot, is it anything but a 6?
No, then you hit on a 6 like everyone else that does not have a specific exception.
If you do not fire at BS1 you are not making a snap shot.
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots."
Seeker missiles say "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"
You make the snap shot instead of shooting normally, so you are no longer BS 5
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Post by: paidinfull
DeathReaper wrote:
"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).
There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).
Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.
Actually they do.
"then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."
So Snap Shot reduces the models BS to 1 for the purpose of those shots, right?
All that is happening is the models BS is now 1 for the purposes of those shots, right?
The models is BS1 for those shots, right?
There is nothing about needing 6's, but rather that the BS is 1 right?
So that there is no confusion, in this case "the model" is "the vehicle" and "the vehicle's BS3 is now BS1"
If so, then the Seeker missile is very much granted a specific exception via FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Since the only thing Snap Shot does, is reduce models BS to 1, the vehicle is subject to this FAQ which does grant specific exception to the rule.
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Post by: Mega_Nob
paidinfull wrote:40k-noob wrote:
If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.
Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say " It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired " at an assumed BS5".
Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.
40k-noob wrote:
As for your Overwatch point, show anywhere in any game where you as unit being charged still have a Markerlight token on the charging unit and I will grant you that seeker missile shot.
I wasn't asserting they get that shot, because they clearly don't. Simply illustrating how the mechanic worked.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:Wrong.
Hard to hit says:
"Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42)."
The Hard to hit rule makes a specific exception for the Skyfire rule.
It does not make specific exception for Seeker missiles.
Please understand the difference and note that I am correct.
You're right there is an exception there for Skyfire and I clearly missed that.
That being said, if you would walk us all through the process of "resolving" a Snap Shot.
I'd like to understand what you think this process is and where that is outlined in the rules.
I second that!
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Post by: DeathReaper
paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).
There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).
Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.
Actually they do.
"then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."
So Snap Shot reduces the models BS to 1 for the purpose of those shots, right?
That is where you are incorrect, the Snap shot never reduces the models BS, it just counts it as 1. The model still has its BS of 5.
64433
Post by: FenixZero
rigeld2 wrote:FenixZero wrote:rigeld2 wrote:FenixZero wrote:For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1.
No, it doesn't.
If they are force to attack at 'Initiative Step 1' then their Initiative is effectively 1, because they can't take any actions on their normal Initiative. Otherwise a person with Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword would be able to attack at both their normal Initiative and Initiative 1. This simply isn't the case. All of your attack happen at the same time, so your Initiative has to be modified (to 1) for that to happen.
False. A model with a Thunder Hammer and a Power Sword must choose which to attack with, per the rules - they cannot attack with both. Your initiative is not modified. Time's Arrow would be a much, MUCH better item if it was modified.
That is why I said that all of your attacks happen at the same time. Either all of your attacks are with your Power Sword at Int X or with the Thunder Hammer, at Int 1. Also in my original post (about this subject) I believe that I did say for combat only.
Unwieldy is to Combat what Snap Shots are to Shooting. If something is 'effectively' or 'resolved at' then that thing is, for all intents and purposes, that specific thing. So for Combat, with a Thunder Hammer you are Initiative 1 for when you make your attacks (and only that). For Shooting your BS is 1 when making a Snap Shot (Hard to Hit, Shaken/Stunned, or Overwatch) and only that.
rigeld2 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:FenixZero wrote:But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.
The former specifies unmodified, and the Hit and Run isn't an attack so absolutely doesn't use Init 1.
Your interpretation would mean the model is Init 1 for things like Time's Arrow.
I have no clue what Time's Arrow is, but I know that Hit and Run isn't an attack, but you requires an Initiative test to break out of combat, and a person with a Thunder Hammer (or any other Unwieldy Weapon) would take that test at their full Initiative.
Time's Arrow is a C'Tan power that forces an initiative test on a model in B2B. Your assertion that the initiative is modified would mean that the test fails on anything but a 1.
My assertion was specific, I believe, to Combat only. That is why I brought up that Unwieldy has no effect on Sweeping Advances.
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Post by: paidinfull
DeathReaper wrote:paidinfull wrote:40k-noob wrote:
If you are insisting that you hit on 2's then by defintition of the Snapshot rule, you are not making a SNAPSHOT. Plain and simple.
Snap Shots reduce the models BS to 1. p13 goes on to say " It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill <snip> cannot be fired as a Snap Shot." The Seeker Missile is not hitting on 2s. It is being fired " at an assumed BS5".
Seeker Missiles can be fired as Snap Shots.
Good, now what do you need to hit with a snap shot, is it anything but a 6?
No, then you hit on a 6 like everyone else that does not have a specific exception.
If you do not fire at BS1 you are not making a snap shot.
"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being I for the purpose of those shots."
Seeker missiles say "This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed ballistic skill of 5"
You make the snap shot instead of shooting normally, so you are no longer BS 5
Except that the model is not "hitting on 6's" the model "counts as BS1 for the purposes of those shots".
Your assertions in this case invalidate the FAQ and Seeker Missiles would not be able to fire if "Stunned/Shaken for example". Wait, what happens when a vehicle is stunned or shaken?
Let's turn to p74 of the BRB
Huh
Vehicle Damage Table...
Wonder what it says here?
1-2 Crew Shaken
The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn
3 Crew Stunned
The vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn. The Vehicle cannot move unless it is a Zooming Flyer. If the vehicle is a Zooming Flyer it instead can only move 18" and cannot turn.
WEIRD!
That's so weird!
You mean that when a vehicle suffers Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned that the vehicle is now only able to fire Snap Shots?! That Snap Shots reduce its ballistics skill to 1 and that there is an FAQ that completely allows the Seeker Missile to fire as a Snap Shot under those circumstances?!
THAT'S SO WEIRD! Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
"Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" (From the FaQ).
There is what says what can hit flyers. Anything else can not hit flyers unless it has a specific exception (Like the Skyfire rule).
Seeker missiles do not have a specific exception to the rule of "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" so they must abide by it as well.
Actually they do.
"then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."
So Snap Shot reduces the models BS to 1 for the purpose of those shots, right?
That is where you are incorrect, the Snap shot never reduces the models BS, it just counts it as 1. The model still has its BS of 5.
Except that's wrong.
"Counts as" is an old argument. Are Nobs troops if you take a Warboss? Certainly seems like a case since the rulebook says "Count as Troops"
The vehicle's ballistic skill is reduced to 1.
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Post by: DeathReaper
The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.
WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.
THAT'S SO WEIRD!
47462
Post by: rigeld2
FenixZero wrote:That is why I said that all of your attacks happen at the same time. Either all of your attacks are with your Power Sword at Int X or with the Thunder Hammer, at Int 1. Also in my original post (about this subject) I believe that I did say for combat only. Unwieldy is to Combat what Snap Shots are to Shooting. If something is 'effectively' or 'resolved at' then that thing is, for all intents and purposes, that specific thing. So for Combat, with a Thunder Hammer you are Initiative 1 for when you make your attacks (and only that). For Shooting your BS is 1 when making a Snap Shot (Hard to Hit, Shaken/Stunned, or Overwatch) and only that.
Here's your original post on the subject: FenixZero wrote:For the purpose combat, where it is one of the two places it matters, yes, it does change their Initiative to 1. But not for Sweeping Advances, or Hit and Run.
Nothing changes their initiative. Ever. My assertion was specific, I believe, to Combat only. That is why I brought up that Unwieldy has no effect on Sweeping Advances.
And guess when Time's Arrow happens? "At the start of the Fight subphase, before blows are struck" - IE during combat. My original statement that you disagreed with was: So by your argument, Unwieldly weapon change the wielders Initiative.
We know this is false.
Cite the rule that changes a models Initiative value.
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Post by: paidinfull
DeathReaper wrote:The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.
WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.
THAT'S SO WEIRD!
Incorrect.
It is an example. Not all encompassing.
What happens when a vehicle suffers one of those results? It can only fire Snap Shots.
What happens when a vehicle can only fire Snap Shots? It's Ballistic Skill is reduce to 1.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Let's add the example back in.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
So what we know *for a fact* is that when a Vehicle is Shaken/Stunned it "is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1". What does that? Snap Shot actually, because that's what happens from the Damage Table
Quite obviously the vehicle is, in fact, being reduced to Ballistic Skill 1.
Since the Vehicle is being reduced to BS1, the FAQ kicks in. What Ballistic Skill does a Seeker missile Fire at when it's fired as a Snap Shot?
BS5
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.
WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.
THAT'S SO WEIRD!
Incorrect.
It is an example. Not all encompassing.
What happens when a vehicle suffers one of those results? It can only fire Snap Shots.
What happens when a vehicle can only fire Snap Shots? It's Ballistic Skill is reduce to 1.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Let's add the example back in.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
So what we know *for a fact* is that when a Vehicle is Shaken/Stunned it "is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1". What does that? Snap Shot actually, because that's what happens from the Damage Table
Quite obviously the vehicle is, in fact, being reduced to Ballistic Skill 1.
Since the Vehicle is being reduced to BS1, the FAQ kicks in. What Ballistic Skill does a Seeker missile Fire at when it's fired as a Snap Shot?
BS5
Yes, someone else who gets it!
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
The seeker missile does not have a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule.
Stop ignoring that fact.
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
It still fires as a snap shot, but it's using BS5 instead of BS1. Stop ignoring that.
62238
Post by: MarkyMark
paidinfull wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The FAQ for shaken and stunned results over-ride what the BRB says for shaken and stunned results.
WEIRD!
That's so weird!
seekers do not have a specific exception to over-ride the "Only Snapshots can hit a zooming flyer" FaQ, so they do not over-ride the FaQ.
THAT'S SO WEIRD!
Incorrect.
It is an example. Not all encompassing.
What happens when a vehicle suffers one of those results? It can only fire Snap Shots.
What happens when a vehicle can only fire Snap Shots? It's Ballistic Skill is reduce to 1.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Let's add the example back in.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.?
So what we know *for a fact* is that when a Vehicle is Shaken/Stunned it "is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1". What does that? Snap Shot actually, because that's what happens from the Damage Table
Quite obviously the vehicle is, in fact, being reduced to Ballistic Skill 1.
Since the Vehicle is being reduced to BS1, the FAQ kicks in. What Ballistic Skill does a Seeker missile Fire at when it's fired as a Snap Shot?
BS5
Not quite, the vehicle is not firing the seeker missile as it is stated it has no control over them, hence why when shaken stunned etc does not affect it, simple. So when you come to fire a seeker missile at a flyer you follow the normal rules, which include hard to hit, which is a snap shot, a snap shot is not bs5 it is bs1, if you cannot snap shot, you cant shoot at flyers. Automatically Appended Next Post: Savageconvoy wrote:It still fires as a snap shot, but it's using BS5 instead of BS1. Stop ignoring that.
By definition bs5 is not a snap shot.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
DeathReaper wrote:The seeker missile does not have a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule.
Stop ignoring that fact.
OOh, what does HTH mean:
HTH = Resolve as a snap shot. (Go to the snap shot rule)
Shaken = Make snap shot. (Go to the snap shot rule)
Stunned = Make snap shot. (Go to the snap shot rule)
All of the above = Reduce your vehicles' BS to 1.
Does the seeker still fire at BS5? Yes it does.
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.
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Post by: paidinfull
DeathReaper wrote:The seeker missile does not have a specific exception to the Hard to hit rule.
Stop ignoring that fact.
Wrong.
I know you can't admit you're wrong. It's hard I get that, but here are the facts.
Snap Shot reduces a model's ballistic skill to 1.
That's a fact.
We know that because of the Tau FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)
So straight from the horses mouth, when you are taking a Snap Shot you are actually reducing a model's Ballistic Skill to 1. The Seeker Missile is very much granted an exception to the Hard to Hit rule in the FAQ everyone has been quoting.
"Shots resovled at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" p 81 BRB
When you "resolve a Snap Shot" you turn to p13 of the BRB
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.
The players resolve this by taking shots at a reduced ballistic skill. We know that the model's ballistic skill is being reduced because of this:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)
While it doesn't explicitly state that we have to look up what Shaken & Stunned are. On the vehicle damage table it quite clearly states that "the vehicle can only fire Snap Shots".
From that we can easily see the relationship that when a model has to fire Snap Shots their "Ballistic Skill is being reduced to 1".
The Tau FAQ then grants a very specific exception and allows Seeker Missiles to fire at Flyers @ BS5.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
There is no question now that Seeker Missiles hit Flyers on 2+.
Now I realize it's hard for you to admit you're wrong. You want to save face because you just went on a 9page diatribe with a complete jerk (me). However, I don't think you're an idiot, so I know, that you know you are wrong. You don't have to admit it, just don't say anything.
To all those who want to try this absolutely stupid tactic of firing a seeker missile at a Flyer:
You can, and the shot is at BS5 per the FAQ.
62238
Post by: MarkyMark
So i can use bs5 on my devis using the signum, nope I cant, I can use telion voice of experince for bs5, nope I cant.
Both in codex surely by your way of thinking I can use them?
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
Do you know what? If somebody came up with a 100% rock solid argument saying it fires at BS1 I would hold my hands up and say "Ok, you got me, fair enough". But no matter how many 100% rock solid arguments I throw out, nobody will budge.
61964
Post by: Fragile
MarkyMark wrote:So i can use bs5 on my devis using the signum, nope I cant, I can use telion voice of experince for bs5, nope I cant.
Both in codex surely by your way of thinking I can use them?
Sure, just cite the FAQ allowing it and your golden.
3872
Post by: paidinfull
MarkyMark wrote:
Not quite, the vehicle is not firing the seeker missile as it is stated it has no control over them, hence why when shaken stunned etc does not affect it, simple. So when you come to fire a seeker missile at a flyer you follow the normal rules, which include hard to hit, which is a snap shot, a snap shot is not bs5 it is bs1, if you cannot snap shot, you cant shoot at flyers.
Wrong. The vehicle *IS* firing the missile.
I've addressed this more than 3x times now.
p 29 C:TE
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.
It very much works as I say it does. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yea! 
62238
Post by: MarkyMark
Savageconvoy wrote:the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.
OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule, Automatically Appended Next Post: in the Tau codex, and I quote
"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"
3872
Post by: paidinfull
MarkyMark wrote: Savageconvoy wrote:the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.
OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote
"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"
Unfortunately the FAQ quoted here...
Completely overrides that one.
Codex Specific > Rulebook Specific
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
Automatically Appended Next Post: MarkyMark wrote:
"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"
Well this is an "out of the ordinary" situation.
The Codex also does explicitly state that the vehicle is firing it.
Here's the appropriate quote
p 29 C:TE
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at an assumed Ballistic Skill of 5.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
MarkyMark wrote: Savageconvoy wrote:the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.
OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote
"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"
This is where it gets a bit complex, The Tau codex says the seeker fires "normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5", and since the markerlight is merely the means to fire the Seeker, it does not in fact change the BS that the seeker is being fired at.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.
62238
Post by: MarkyMark
Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.
At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.
I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.
iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules. Automatically Appended Next Post: megatrons2nd wrote:Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.
If the marker light is the attack, why the need to roll another dice for the seeker missile to hit?.
64433
Post by: FenixZero
MarkyMark wrote: Savageconvoy wrote:the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.
OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote
"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"
The Marketlight isn't increasing the BS of Seekers because they are always fired at BS5. Firing a Seeker is an effect of using a Marketlight that has hit a target.
62238
Post by: MarkyMark
Mega_Nob wrote:MarkyMark wrote: Savageconvoy wrote:the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.
OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote
"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"
This is where it gets a bit complex, The Tau codex says the seeker fires "normally in all regards at an assumed BS of 5", and since the markerlight is merely the means to fire the Seeker, it does not in fact change the BS that the seeker is being fired at.
You mean this is where your loop hole goes on shakey ground as you are assuming it ignores hard to hit, because you are not granted skyfire
This is all from me on this thread, wasted a good few mins before my dinner,
Thanks Automatically Appended Next Post: FenixZero wrote:MarkyMark wrote: Savageconvoy wrote:the rulebook covers the general, and exceptions are listed in the codex or FAQ. So Yeah, it's still a snap shot at BS5.
OF course you know the FAQ has disallowed those example, but surely not considering you are trying to do something very simular.
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No.
So by the above statement it is clear that anything that is not bs1 is not a snap shot, therefore cannot meet hard to hit rule,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
in the Tau codex, and I quote
"Ordinarily, the vehicle has no control over them and cannot launch them itself"
The Marketlight isn't increasing the BS of Seekers because they are always fired at BS5. Firing a Seeker is an effect of using a Marketlight that has hit a target.
My bad, never said it was altering the BS, just that the first line, BS1 of a snap shot, that clearly states a snap shot is bs1, nothing else.
3872
Post by: paidinfull
MarkyMark wrote:Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.
Sigh.
Did you not see where I broke down how the FAQ actually works?
Hard To Hit makes all shots against Flyers Snap Shots.
Snap Shots reduce all firing model's ballistic skill to 1.
We know that it is in fact reducing the ballistic skill when we look at the Tau FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example)
When we look at Shaken/Stunned on the Damage Chart we see that it makes the vehicle fire Snap Shots.
From that relationship we can easily deduce that the Snap Shot rule reduces the model's Ballistic Skill.
Seeker Missiles are then granted an exception to the rule in the FAQ.
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken,
Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or
Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.
MarkyMark wrote:
At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.
I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.
iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules.
No, no this is not "rules lawyering" to support the RAW. The RAW is quite clear and I've illustrated it clearly.
Saying that it does not fire @BS5 is wrong, because you're looking for, and providing semantic arguments to support your point that are in contradiction to the RAW & FAQ.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
MarkyMark wrote:Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.
At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.
I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.
iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
megatrons2nd wrote:Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.
If the marker light is the attack, why the need to roll another dice for the seeker missile to hit?.
Because it is a special rule. Why would you need to roll to hit with those witch fire powers, after you all you passed the LD test?
The main rulebook also states that other special rules may exist in a codex and those take precedence over rulebook rules. So as a special rule it allows for the targeting and hitting of a flier at it's assumed BS5. That is why no other weapon allows it, no other weapon has a special rule that is written as such. Skyfire and markerlight, both are written as such. Hard to hit is not normal, it is an exception.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Yes it is.
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).
Then it can not hit.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
MarkyMark wrote:Completely overrides that one, but there is no exception to ignore hard to hit.
At best this is rules lawyering till a clearer FAQ comes out, I'd bet money on the fact the seeker missiles will not be bs5 for shooting at flyers. Expolit the loop hole while you can kids.
I have asked before, and have had no answers but there is not one other shooting attack in the game that doesnt have to snap shot to hit without skyfire, but you guys play your games how you want.
iMO, because that is all this thread is, you cannot ignore hard to hit rules, as that is part of the normal shooting rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
megatrons2nd wrote:Please note that the markerlight is the attack, and the seeker missile is just a possible resolution of said attack, where as the signum, and Telion are modifying before the attack. Which is why I believe they are FAQ'd the way they are.
If the marker light is the attack, why the need to roll another dice for the seeker missile to hit?.
What are the HTH rules we are ignoring that you are referring to? You mean the ones that say you have to make a snap shot, which by reference is a shot that reduces your BS to 1, which then doesn't affect the BS of a seeker by refering to the Tau FAQ. Oh we have far from ignored that. See the last ten pages dude.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote:
Yes it is.
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).
Then it can not hit.
Why do you ignore other rules, and even the main rulebook telling you codex special rules take precedent over the main rulebook rules?
3872
Post by: paidinfull
DeathReaper wrote:
Yes it is.
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).
Then it can not hit.
Right, and it is firing as a Snap Shot.
I outlined that quite clearly.
Shaken/Stunned = Snap Shot
Flyer = Snap Shot
Snap Shot = Reduce BS to 1.
FAQ overrides that. I know you don't want to admit it, but you are very, very wrong here.
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
DeathReaper wrote:Yes it is.
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).
Then it can not hit.
You're missing the point so hard, it's embarassing me.
But we can ignore and change rules all we want.
I say in order to bring a flyer you have to tap three red mana and a green, and I see no land cards on the table.
3872
Post by: paidinfull
Savageconvoy wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Yes it is. "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures." is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No). Then it can not hit.
You're missing the point so hard, it's embarassing me. But we can ignore and change rules all we want. I say in order to bring a flyer you have to tap three red mana and a green, and I see no land cards on the table.
What about a Primeval Titan? Pretty sure he's running one of those in his army list. That might allow him to Reserve his flyer.
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
I dunno. Lemme see you're character sheet. Better roll for dexterity first.
66003
Post by: Mega_Nob
paidinfull wrote: Savageconvoy wrote: DeathReaper wrote:Yes it is.
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).
Then it can not hit.
You're missing the point so hard, it's embarassing me.
But we can ignore and change rules all we want.
I say in order to bring a flyer you have to tap three red mana and a green, and I see no land cards on the table.
What about a Primeval Titan? Pretty sure he's running one of those in his army list. That might allow him to Reserve his flyer.
When nature calls............ Automatically Appended Next Post: DeathReaper wrote:
Yes it is.
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).
Then it can not hit.
Did anyone say it was?
46128
Post by: Happyjew
So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?
8620
Post by: DAaddict
I would argue that the Snapfire requirement is met by the markerlight. At that point the special rules - expending a markerlight on a target - to target with a seeker missile comes into effect and that - per the rules says it hits on a 5+.
However, thanks to GW, there is no logic in the rules and it doesn't work. The markerlight not modifying a shot - referenced in the FAQ - is muddled by the fact that markerlights can modify the BS of a shot. Can a markerlight modify a snapfire. NO Can a markerlight be expended for a seeker missile. YES. So the only question is whether a seeker missile acts per the codex or not.
As stated before - other than the flexibility it offers - using seeker missiles to target flyers is a points-inefficient way to take out flyers. Which speaks to the age and dated costs of the Tau Empire codex.
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
DAaddict wrote:I would argue that the Snapfire requirement is met by the markerlight. At that point the special rules - expending a markerlight on a target - to target with a seeker missile comes into effect and that - per the rules says it hits on a 5+.
However, thanks to GW, there is no logic in the rules and it doesn't work. The markerlight not modifying a shot - referenced in the FAQ - is muddled by the fact that markerlights can modify the BS of a shot. Can a markerlight modify a snapfire. NO Can a markerlight be expended for a seeker missile. YES. So the only question is whether a seeker missile acts per the codex or not.
As stated before - other than the flexibility it offers - using seeker missiles to target flyers is a points-inefficient way to take out flyers. Which speaks to the age and dated costs of the Tau Empire codex.
You're missing the key point though.
1.) Markerlight is used to fire the missile. Done.
2.) What BS is it resolved at?
3.) It's a flier, so snap fire.
4.) Is there a relevant FAQ? Yes.
5.) FAQ has you treat Seeker missiles as BS5 for the purpose of snap fire.
Done!
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Happyjew wrote:So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?
Quoting because it's apparently being ignored
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
I'm not familiar with Stubborn. But if there was an FAQ that specifically mentioned that a Stubborn unit's leadership doesn't get reduced to a set value, like what happened with the Seekermissile, then I'd agree.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Savageconvoy wrote:I'm not familiar with Stubborn. But if there was an FAQ that specifically mentioned that a Stubborn unit's leadership doesn't get reduced to a set value, like what happened with the Seekermissile, then I'd agree.
BRB page 43 wrote:When a unit that contains at least one
model with this special rule takes Morale
checks or Pinning tests, they ignore any
negative Leadership modifiers. If a unit
is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the
rules for Fearless instead.
3872
Post by: paidinfull
rigeld2 wrote:Happyjew wrote:So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?
Quoting because it's apparently being ignored
A set modifier that is less than the original is very much a reduction.
Stubborn
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale Checks or Pinning Tests, they ignore any negative leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.
If you are referring to the PBS scenario, INAT has already covered that.
IG.47D.02 – Q: Does Weaken Resolve affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: No it does not, as ‘Weaken Resolve’ modifies the unit’s Ld value (which ‘Stubborn’ ignores during Morale tests) [clarification].
If that was indeed what you are referring to, then yes, Stubborn ignores those modifiers.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
paidinfull wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Happyjew wrote:So since a set modifier apparently equals reduction, does that mean stubborn models are immune to things that set the Leadership to 2 for the purpose of Morale checks?
Quoting because it's apparently being ignored
A set modifier that is less than the original is very much a reduction.
Stubborn
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale Checks or Pinning Tests, they ignore any negative leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.
If you are referring to the PBS scenario, INAT has already covered that.
IG.47D.02 – Q: Does Weaken Resolve affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: No it does not, as ‘Weaken Resolve’ modifies the unit’s Ld value (which ‘Stubborn’ ignores during Morale tests) [clarification].
If that was indeed what you are referring to, then yes, Stubborn ignores those modifiers.
Weaken Resolve isn't a set value. INAT isn't official.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
INAT rulings don't amount to much here. Similar to NOVA out other Tournament FAQs.
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
In that case, I agree.
3872
Post by: paidinfull
What's your point?
Do you have a specific instance where an ability makes a unit's LD value a set value?
50138
Post by: Savageconvoy
So are you trying to argue that the Seekermissile FAQ is irrelevent because of other rules that don't apply to shooting snap shots?
61964
Post by: Fragile
DeathReaper wrote:
Yes it is.
"Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures."
is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No).
Then it can not hit.
It absolutely is. Dont try to take the stance that a codex or FAQ cannot override the BRB. We all know that is not true.
When the vehicle fires the missile as a snapshot, it fires at BS5 per FAQ.
Is HTH a Snap Shot. Yes.
Then it fires at BS5
3872
Post by: paidinfull
Happyjew wrote:INAT rulings don't amount to much here. Similar to NOVA out other Tournament FAQs.
It was intended to save me time typing everything up, because it seemed that was your point.
Weaken Resolve
For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)
Stubborn
When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule takes Morale Checks or Pinning Tests, they ignore any negative leadership modifiers. If a unit is both Fearless and Stubborn, it uses the rules for Fearless instead.
There are the two rules. What do you think?
Does Weaken Resolve work on Stubborn units? No. You are attempting to "reduce", aka negatively modify, the Stubborn unit's Leadership.
This is off topic. Unless you have a specific instance that relates to the topic at hand, please stay on topic.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Fragile wrote: DeathReaper wrote: Yes it is. "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures." is firing at BS 5 firing a Snapshot? (No). Then it can not hit.
It absolutely is. Dont try to take the stance that a codex or FAQ cannot override the BRB. We all know that is not true. When the vehicle fires the missile as a snapshot, it fires at BS5 per FAQ. Is HTH a Snap Shot. Yes. Then it fires at BS5
Unless you missed it, snap shots at flyers are resolved at BS1, not 5. "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures." is from an FAQ
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